Episode #216: The Holy Garment-Part 1

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Matthew, how's it going?
I'm.

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Doing well.
How are you I'm.

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OK, you know, I got to admit
and, and I can't believe I'm

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going to admit this right here,
right now, but when I started

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this podcast, I wouldn't say it
was a promise, but I remember I

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looked up towards the heavens
and I said, but I'm never going

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to have to talk about garments,
right?

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And it was kind of silent.
And here we are.

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We're we're about to talk about
garments.

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We're doing it, We're doing it.
So, I mean, Jonah didn't want to

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go to Nineveh, Dave didn't want
to talk about garments, but

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nonetheless.
They're basically the same.

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They're they're basically the
same story.

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Like this is your whale.
Like here we are.

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This is your whale.
I ran from it for too long and

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finally.
Here we are.

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This one, this one comes because
of the request of the audience

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actually right and and.
Really.

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That's awesome.
The the early folks that emailed

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me, I'm sorry I made you wait
this long, but I honestly had

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hoped this had blown over, but
it has not because quite

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frankly, anytime there's a
change anywhere, my e-mail blows

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up.
But this one was persistent.

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Everybody wanted my take on it.
I, I, I'm not.

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Maybe I'll give my take when
we're done here.

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I don't know.
We'll find out as this thing

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goes along.
But this was one that I that,

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and maybe it's just because I
don't know it, it, it's kind of

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a personal thing, but also it,
it's, it's one of those things

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that that can become easily a
gauge that maybe people judge

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unrighteously by.
And I, I'm, I'm always a bit, a

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bit cognizant of that.
So and look, I when when your

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name came up on this, I got to
admit it just felt right.

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I was like, yeah, no, that that
seems right.

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And so I, I appreciate you even
returning my phone call.

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So but so before we.
Go excuse to talk.

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I'm here for.
It no, it's good.

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It's good.
You know, before, before we just

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dive right in headlong to the
subject.

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Let's just get a feel for you
real quick, right?

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I mean, are you born LDS or you
know what's what's kind of your

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background there?
You're Mormon thread, if you

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will.
Yeah, so I was born and raised

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LDS.
I grew up in Las Vegas.

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So I grew up in a den of
iniquity, if you will.

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And Mormonism in Vegas was kind
of a bubble, right?

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There was, there was Vegas, and
what makes Vegas Vegas.

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And then there was the Mormon
population.

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And there's a huge Mormon
population out there, more than

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you would ever begin to think.
Vegas has a lot of job, has a

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lot of job opportunities.
So people moved there to work.

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And a lot of those people are
Mormon.

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So there's actually a lot more.
The LDS population is, is quite

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large out there.
And so I grew up LDS, born and

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raised.
My father was born and raised

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LDS.
His father was born and raised

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LDS, come from pioneer stock.
And my mother was born and

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raised in England.
Her parents were first

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generation converts.
So they converted, I believe if

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I remember the story, right
before she was born.

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And I was taught the gospel from
the moment I was born, as long

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as I could remember up until
now.

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So I grew up LDS and converted
to fundamentalism.

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It's a complicated story because
it's, it's not just black and

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white, right?
I didn't wake up one day and was

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like the fullness of the gospel,
you know, it definitely came in

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parts.
But I converted around the time

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after my mission and here we
are.

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Where'd you go on your mission?
Chicago.

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Go to Chicago, IL.
Yeah.

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How did you like it?
Dude, I loved it.

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I I loved my mission.
You know, it's so funny because

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I dual citizenship because of my
mother.

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So my mom, like I said, was born
and raised in England.

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I was convinced I took Chinese
in high school.

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I I was convinced that I was
going to go Chinese speaking

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somewhere in England.
Like, I know this weird.

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We all have this vision of the
perfect place for us.

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I was called to Chicago,
American Sign Language.

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So I, I sign, I speak with my
hands, right?

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God, God knew what he was doing
when he gave me companions that

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couldn't hear me.
So but I say that tongue in

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cheek, cause most of my, most of
my companions were actually

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hearing.
But I, yeah, I was a sign

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language, sign language
missionarian in Chicago, so.

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Yeah.
What was that like getting that

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mission call right?
Like, were you freaked out?

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Were you irritated?
I mean, what was your thoughts?

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No, you know, it's so funny
because I, I remember getting

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that call and just feeling peace
about it.

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You know, a lot of people, I've
heard stories of people getting

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called to the States and they
kind of just, there's this bit

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of disappointment.
I, I kind of lived a bit of like

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after my teenage years.
So I guess during my teenage

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years, right, But from like 18
on, I kind of, I don't want to

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say fell away from the church,
but just had some things in my

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life that I just religion I kind
of put on the shelf for a little

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bit.
Nothing I'm proud of.

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But that's just I was 18 and
just needed to figure out life

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for the first time on my own,
right.

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So from, for a couple years I
had made mistakes I wasn't proud

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of and I was just glad to get to
a point where I was worthy to

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serve a mission.
And, and that, that was

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something that I was just
honored that Heavenly Father saw

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past the stupid things I did in
my teenage years and my, I don't

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wanna say early 20s cause by
that point was on my mission,

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but so teenage years, right?
And so I, I was just honored to

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serve.
And I know that sounds really

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probably cheesy, but I, that was
so important to me.

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Like I, when I was, when I
finally could say that the

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testimony that I had was for
myself and not something that

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was holding on to the coattails
of my parents, I was just ready

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to share that with people.
I didn't care where it was.

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I remember making a joke.
I was like, yeah, I'd love to go

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to England.
I, I, I was convinced that's

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where I was gonna go.
But if I get called to Boise, ID

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so be it.
So be it, right?

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And or Salt Lake so I was just I
was just happy to be where I was

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called and I was happy to serve.
You know the scripture saved you

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desire to serve God and that's
what I wanted to do so.

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I only laughed because I lived
for a long time in Boise.

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Around in and around Boise.
And dude, the missionaries,

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they're spoiled.
They are spoiled.

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It's, it's a great place.
It really is.

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I I, I loved, I loved the
Treasure Valley.

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I thought it was great.
But like, I was pretty active in

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the LDS Church in those days.
And I remember I was a ward

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mission leader just outside of
Boise in a town called Caldwell.

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And I remember we had just
gotten a new missionary and we

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were sitting down going over the
workload right of, of people in

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the ward we were working with.
And I remember asking him, I'm

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like, OK, so you know, this is
what we got going.

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And he was just, he looked
dejected the whole time.

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Right now it's his first week
out of the MTC and I'm like, are

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you OK?
And he's like, can I level with

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you on something?
It's like, absolutely.

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And he's like, I was convinced.
I'm still convinced I'm supposed

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to be in Russia.
And so four months ago or

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however long, he said.
When I got my mission call and

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it said Boise, ID, I I smiled
for everybody.

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And then I walked into my room
and I cried.

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Yeah.
So, so when you, when you said

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Boise, I just couldn't help but
go back to that.

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It was, it's, it's, it is kind
of one of those things where I

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think at at least and look, it's
kind of foreign to me because I

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wasn't raised in the church,
right?

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I, I wasn't raised with dreams
of, you know, going to the

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foreign world and preaching the
Gospel that way.

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But I I've noticed it is kind of
a rite of passage and sometimes

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that can be a bit a bit jarring
when it doesn't work out quite

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like someone had hoped So, but
you enjoyed your mission.

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I loved it.
You know, it's funny because I,

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I hear people and they talk
about their mission and I

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wasn't, I wasn't a, a perfect
missionary by any means.

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You know, there was, there was a
learning curve for sure.

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But I hear people talk about
their missions and I'll never

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relate to the ones that say they
didn't love it.

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And I hear that, you know, it's
some, I never really hear a

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middle ground.
It's either they loved it or

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they're like, this was awful.
I'll never understand that I

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loved my mission.
I every redeeming quality that I

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have in my life comes from
lessons I learned on my mission.

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Like I, it, it was life
changing.

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It was, it was life changing.
You know, I, I had companions I

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got along with that I'm best
friends with today and I have

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companions that I didn't get
along with, you know, and every

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one of those, whether I got
along with them or didn't, it

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was just, I chalked it up to
experience, you know, and so it

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was, it was good.
I, I loved my mission.

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It was just the whole, just
everyday meeting new people.

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And like I said, because I kind
of had a past prior to my

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mission, I was able to say,
look, this message that we're

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sharing will bless your life.
It will change your life.

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And, and I can tell you that
because it did that for me, you

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know, and, and I, I was
definitely, you get people who

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have their favorite aspects of
the gospel and they kind of lean

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towards that.
For me, it was the atonement.

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I, I love saying, Hey, it
doesn't matter what your past

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was.
It doesn't matter what you

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struggle with or what you are
struggling with or what you're

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overcoming or what you have
overcome.

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Christ has paved a way for us to
overcome this.

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And, and that was my message and
my mission, right?

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I love talking about Joseph
Smith.

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I love sharing the message of
the restoration, but I focused a

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lot on the atonement aspect of
the things that we learned that

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were restored.
Absolutely right.

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And, and look, that's one thing
that I think probably doesn't

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get enough to run right.
And, and I remember it was this

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way when I joined the church
and, and, and whatnot, right?

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The when, when someone can teach
with authority, because they

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have experience, they can be
authentic, right?

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And this idea that Mormonism and
religion are for the perfect

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people, I cannot get behind that
statement.

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Your your meeting houses should
look like hospitals for the

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spiritually sick.
I remember, I remember probably

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one of the best leaders I ever
had in the LDS Church is when I

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was living in Maryland and in
look, news flash, there's not a

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ton of Mormons east of the
Mississippi, right gets a little

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sparse the farther E you go.
And so I remember I had, I had

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walked into this ward and I was
in the ward all of two weeks.

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And they're like, well, where
are you from?

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And I'm like you Idaho.
And they're like, you're, you're

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from the Mormon belt, right?
You're, you're, you've been,

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you've been back home.
And and you know, so

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immediately, like within two
weeks, I get called as an Elders

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corn president.
And so it's bragging rights.

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It's bragging rights, dude,
being like, so I after my

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mission, I actually lived in
Chicago again.

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I moved back out there and I was
the elders home president.

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So it's just do you get the
right thing?

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Might not be the right word, but
Oh yeah.

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Oh yeah.
Did you get the same thing?

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Like they're, oh, yeah, they're
from the motherland.

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They come with wisdom, right?
And it's like, I'm just a dude,

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right?
I'm just here.

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But.
But somehow they figure you're

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from back West and that that
means that you're totally tied

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up and, you know, all dialed in,
which isn't, isn't true at all.

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But anyway, I remember we had
the state president and and so

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let me back up.
A lot of the people that were

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00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:07,080
coming to church in those days
weren't like 4th and 5th

223
00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,240
generation Mormons, right?
These are people from quote the

224
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,760
mission field, right?
So our, our ward building

225
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,800
constantly smell like smokers,
right?

226
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,360
We get people in and I remember
we had, we didn't see too much

227
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,600
of our stake president because
the stake actually was a pretty

228
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,200
good chunk of it was all of
Delaware.

229
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,040
It was part of Maryland and a
little bit of Virginia.

230
00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:34,760
So it was a, it was pretty much
all of the Delmarva Peninsula.

231
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,040
And so it was a pretty good
chunk of geographical ground in

232
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,320
those days.
And so we didn't see a whole lot

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00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,120
of the state president.
But have you ever just met those

234
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:49,640
guys who look like they're just
very austere, Very, very direct

235
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,240
and kind of straight to the
point and buttoned up to the

236
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,880
point that you're pretty sure
they have no time for anything

237
00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,160
less than the standard, right?
And look, if if you were back

238
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,800
West in your meetinghouse
smelled like smoke, there were

239
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,200
going to be questions that were
answered that we're going to get

240
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,600
asked.
And I remember we always did

241
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,160
our, our leadership meetings
after church because we started

242
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,440
church at like 7:00 in the
morning, I think.

243
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,360
And so we were, we had had a
ward conference.

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00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:25,360
And I mean, it really, it really
this, this one day smelled

245
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,680
pretty rough of, of, of
cigarette smoke just because we

246
00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,920
had a lot of investigators there
and the state president was

247
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,720
there.
And I remember we had, in those

248
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,400
days, it was called PEC
priesthood executive committee,

249
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,880
right?
And so all the priesthood quorum

250
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,960
presidents would go in there and
young man's and and talk about,

251
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,320
you know, what's going on in the
ward and how best to to serve

252
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,920
people.
And we'd walked in the state

253
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:57,960
president was there and the
Bishop walks in and the Bishop

254
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,800
had kind of that pompous piety
going on, right, Kind of that

255
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,400
I'm way more humble than you are
kind of a thing going.

256
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,760
And I remember he walked in.
He's like president, I'm I'm so

257
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,080
sorry that our words smelled
like the way it did today.

258
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,040
And and you know, that's just we
got con, you know, people

259
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,560
investigating.
And I remember the the state

260
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,040
president just put his hand up
like this and he said that

261
00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,480
smells like people coming unto
Christ from what I can tell and

262
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,840
left it right there, right.
And some of the best

263
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,240
missionaries we ever got on the
ward level who were ward

264
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,400
missionaries were the converts
because they they they could

265
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:40,840
bear testimony with an
authenticity that maybe someone

266
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:42,600
who didn't have some of those
struggles had.

267
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,120
I'm not saying we should go, we
should go out and purposely

268
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,040
transgress the laws of God to
gain that.

269
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,160
But what I.
Am saying of course.

270
00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,920
What what I am saying is that
when someone makes that that

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00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,840
turn around, right?
I had to do it.

272
00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:01,360
It it I think it's healthy to
see you remember who Neil A

273
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,360
Maxwell was.
Of course.

274
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,920
He was in, he was in the corner
of the 12 when I joined the

275
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:08,800
church and didn't he passed
away.

276
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,240
I, I don't think too long after
I was there, but I remember he

277
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,440
was speaking in one general
conference about his, his cancer

278
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,440
diagnosis and then his cancer
treatment.

279
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,480
And he said he was he in, in the
talk.

280
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,240
He said he was laying in the
hospital and he asked God why he

281
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,760
had to endure this.
And God had told him so that you

282
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,160
could teach and bear testimony
with authenticity.

283
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,400
It wasn't academic any longer.
The, the, the rubber had met the

284
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,160
road and the atonement had
worked.

285
00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,840
And so I, I couldn't agree with
you more that, that, that and,

286
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,040
and predominantly for most of
the world, right?

287
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,360
Even even if you're a
fundamentalist, the, the thing

288
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,280
you want to point to the most is
Jesus Christ in the atonement,

289
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,800
right?
And you can build from there.

290
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:58,040
So I, I agree with you 100%.
Now let me ask you this,

291
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,720
Matthew, as as you are going on
your mission and stuff, have you

292
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,400
already kind of start dabbling
in fundamentalism?

293
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,839
Have you started reading the
forbidden books and you know

294
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:09,319
that sort of thing?
Yeah.

295
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,560
So yes, short answer is
absolutely.

296
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:18,079
So I'll backtrack just to smidge
just so I can answer that, just

297
00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:22,839
so that that makes sense.
So I was probably 8 or 9 when I

298
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:24,960
first learned what even
fundamentalism was.

299
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,240
Again, I grew up in Vegas and we
just, we didn't really, I didn't

300
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,280
know what a, I didn't know there
was more than one way to Mormon.

301
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:37,240
I didn't know like I, I, I'd
never heard of, I think I may

302
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,920
have heard of the Reorganized
church because my mother lived

303
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,680
in Ohio for a little bit and the
Reorganized Church was huge out

304
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:50,000
there.
So I think I'd heard about the

305
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,600
RLDS and I think that and the
LDS was like all I ever knew.

306
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,160
I could be wrong on that because
I can't remember at what point I

307
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,200
kind of learned that there was
something beyond that.

308
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:03,080
But if, if I knew anything
outside of what was LDS was

309
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,440
there was the RLDS.
So I knew of those two things.

310
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,200
And it wasn't until I was
probably 8 or 9 my we had a

311
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,280
summer home in southern Utah and
we would go there every summer,

312
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,480
every holiday.
My dad was an educator, so he

313
00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,080
had holidays off, He had
weekends off pretty much if we

314
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,600
were in school and if my dad
wasn't in school as a teacher or

315
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,880
principal later on in life, then
we were in southern Utah.

316
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,240
And in southern Utah, you can't
avoid fundamentalist Mormons.

317
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,640
They're everywhere.
They are, they're everywhere.

318
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,800
You go to Walmart, you go to
Costco and you are going to see,

319
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,720
usually it's the FLBS.
And that's just because they are

320
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,080
more you, you can spot them,
right?

321
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,920
They're, they're very uniformed
in, in their appearance.

322
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,720
So I remember the first time I
ever even learned what

323
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,960
fundamentalism was.
And I was a young boy, My dad

324
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,840
grew up in Southern Utah.
And I've noticed there is a lot

325
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,800
of hatred to fundamentalist
Mormons in Southern Utah.

326
00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,600
I think it extends outside of
that, but it's, it's very

327
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,120
prominent out there.
And my dad was pretty biased.

328
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,440
My dad had a lot of prejudisms
and hatred toward that.

329
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:15,680
You know, shout out to my dad if
he hears this.

330
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,680
I love you dearly.
But but there was there was some

331
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,040
hatred there and it and it's, I
think a lot of it is just where

332
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:23,880
he grew up.
He grew up very close to the

333
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:30,160
Creek and there was an agenda
being pushed by mainstream

334
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:34,040
society.
And my dad, all he knew was what

335
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,520
was being pushed in that agenda.
So Fast forward one day, we were

336
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,320
at our summer home in southern
Utah and there was some, there

337
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:48,040
was an FLDS family that had been
hired to build a cabin in in

338
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,200
that town, right 'cause
fundamentalists and construction

339
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:55,960
go hand in hand.
So they, there was a, it's just

340
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,440
kind of a thing.
So there was AFLDS family that

341
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,960
been hired to build a cabin for
a, just a family that lived in

342
00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,000
New Harmony.
This was the town that we were

343
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:10,320
in and our home was next door to
the park in New Harmony.

344
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:12,840
And they were, all the kids were
playing at the park.

345
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,760
One day, all these FLDS kids are
playing at the park.

346
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:17,480
And I remember my dad being
like, you stay away from that

347
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,480
park when they're out there.
And I'm like, why?

348
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,400
That made no sense to me.
Like, why am I not allowed to go

349
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:23,840
to the park?
Like I go to the park when

350
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:25,960
people are playing all the time,
you know, as a young boy.

351
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,240
And me being a little bit of a
rebellious spirit, I did what

352
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,120
any rebellious spirit would do.
I went to our backyard, picked

353
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:38,480
them apples and went to the park
where these FLDS kids were

354
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,640
playing and was like, hey, who
are you?

355
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,920
Why are you dressed funny?
And why is my dad telling me I'm

356
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:45,920
not allowed to hang out with
you?

357
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:51,240
And that is a true story like
that is a that is a true story

358
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,240
and also the most Matthew thing
I've ever heard.

359
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,920
But it is it is true.
I just said.

360
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,760
My last name Why are you an
apostate?

361
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:03,960
Yeah, why are you evil?
Why?

362
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:11,120
Why is my dad being weird?
But I, I remember hearing that

363
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:17,080
and just something, something
just didn't sit right with me.

364
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,920
Like they, they're just kids.
Yeah, they're, their outfits are

365
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,560
a little strange to me, but I
mean, I wear overalls.

366
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:30,360
This was, this was the 90s.
Like, I, I'm, I'm older, I'm 33.

367
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,640
Like I wear overalls to school
too.

368
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,520
Like I'm not exactly like
trendy.

369
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,000
So I go to the park and I give
them this bushel of apples.

370
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,200
And I remember just I, I
literally, I think I probably

371
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,160
said something along those lines
like why you dress like this?

372
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,160
Why are you I probably said the
word evil just because I have 0

373
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:50,800
tact.
Again, my mother was British.

374
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,000
That just wasn't something that
passed down.

375
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,160
But it's created this weird
friendship.

376
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,800
So for the remainder of their
time where they were working,

377
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,840
this happened for about a couple
months while they were finishing

378
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,160
up building this cabin.
The older kids and the adults

379
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,680
would would work on the cabin
and then the younger kids and

380
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,560
the grandmothers and the mothers
would all be hanging out at the

381
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,840
park during the day.
So this became the thing, if I

382
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,720
was in southern Utah at our
summer home on breaks, I would

383
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,840
go to the park and look for
these people because I just felt

384
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,520
something about them that just
made me feel, I don't know, it

385
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,040
was the weirdest thing.
I just felt the spirit.

386
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:33,840
You can, to use LDS terms like I
just loved how I felt around

387
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,920
this FLDS family that I was
forbidden to have any kind of

388
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,520
friendship with.
And, and it just extended for

389
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,080
the remainder of the time as
they were finishing up their,

390
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,680
their project.
And I remember I, I couldn't

391
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:52,120
exactly tell you what they
taught me or what they talked to

392
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:54,200
me about, but I remember how I
felt.

393
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,800
And that never left that never
left.

394
00:22:57,800 --> 00:22:59,640
I remember them talking about
plural marriage.

395
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,360
I remember them talking about
law of consecration and then

396
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:07,640
living what Joseph Smith taught.
They didn't bash my faith.

397
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,320
They didn't bash the LDS church.
They just said the LDS church

398
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,920
has made some changes that we
believe weren't authorized by

399
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,640
God to make.
And as a young boy, I remember

400
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,040
hearing that and being like, oh,
OK.

401
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,960
So I think they were the ones
that taught me, we don't use the

402
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,000
word polygamy.
And so I remember one day my dad

403
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,200
was like, I saw you hanging out
with those polygamists.

404
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,080
And I was like, dad, it's called
celestial plural marriage.

405
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:39,520
And so the, the seed, the seed
was planted.

406
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:45,960
And I, I know I, I'm an oddity.
I like but I remember being that

407
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:52,000
my dad just being like OK, like
but I anytime from that day on,

408
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,920
if I heard anyone use the word
polygamous as this like 9 year

409
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,600
old boy, I'd be like it's called
celestial plural marriage and I

410
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,120
would like tell them off like
and.

411
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,760
Just giving it to your seminary
teacher or something.

412
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,480
I could.
See 100% and my mom was a

413
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,880
seminary teacher, so I actually
think she started calling it

414
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,640
that.
I mean, we, we use celestial

415
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,760
marriage, but we never put the
plural in it because that didn't

416
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,080
pertain to the LDS people,
right?

417
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,600
Like we weren't plural marriage
wasn't something that was being

418
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,640
practiced anymore.
But anytime the word polygamy

419
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,640
would be brought up like I, I
would be like, you're saying it

420
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,960
wrong.
Like I, I that, and I'll die on

421
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,080
that hill.
Like I, I was a staunch

422
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,360
protector of that word.
No, no one was saying polygamy

423
00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:37,000
in, in, in my, in my
whereabouts.

424
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,560
So that's kind of where it
started.

425
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,960
And then as a teenager, but I,
what do you do with that?

426
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,000
Right?
What do you do when you're a

427
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,000
young boy and you start to
question your, what you're being

428
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,760
taught?
But that was very isolating

429
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:57,400
that, that was that I had this,
I was starting to question what

430
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,600
was being taught, But I, I
didn't know what to do with it.

431
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:05,840
I, I'd met this FLDS family, but
FLDS people, especially at that

432
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,400
time, you know, they, there was
the raids happening.

433
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:16,720
There was raids had happened.
Their leader had been had been

434
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,000
arrested, you know, And so other
than that one family that I met

435
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,480
at the park, the FLDS were
pretty closed off.

436
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,240
And so I didn't know what to do
with these beliefs.

437
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:34,120
And so I kind of just put them
on the shelf and I I tried to

438
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:38,160
research as much as I can.
I mean, we had the Internet, but

439
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:43,120
it was like AOL, you know, we,
we had these groups and there

440
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:46,760
was remember the Yahoo groups?
I don't know how far you're.

441
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:52,040
Yeah.
So I had those, but it became

442
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,680
very clear that I was a
teenager, you know, the more I

443
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,200
would try and like hold my own
in these, in these groups.

444
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,640
Like it was very obvious that I
was young, you know, And so I

445
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,600
just other than these like
Yahoo, AOL groups that were

446
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,880
focused on fundamentalist topics
and, and those groups attracted

447
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:11,960
weirdos.
Like there's some, there's some

448
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,480
weird people in those groups
too.

449
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,400
And so I tried to stay away from
those as well.

450
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,440
But other than that, there
wasn't a lot I could find online

451
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,800
back then.
Now there's such a vast

452
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,680
collection of any topic you
could find.

453
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,880
You just type in Google and you
can find just about anything

454
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,880
these days.
But back then that wasn't the

455
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,160
case.
And so I just kind of put it on

456
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,440
the shelf.
And then Fast forward till I was

457
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,000
probably 18 or 19, I was working
at a scout camp.

458
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:41,480
And there was one of the scouts
that was at that camp.

459
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:49,120
He was a little, he was a child
of a celestial plural marriage

460
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:52,720
family.
And he was, yeah, yeah.

461
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,600
He was not a, he was not part of
a Plagamist family.

462
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,040
He was part of a celestial
plural marriage family.

463
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,840
And I, I cause the FLDS chewed
me out for using that word when

464
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,880
I was a little boy.
So ever since then, like that

465
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,400
became, that became what I
called it.

466
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:11,560
So there was this, there was
this boy that was from a plural

467
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,800
family and he was in an LDS
troupe.

468
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,640
And I remember hearing him
getting made fun of relentlessly

469
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,240
at the scout camp.
And I'm a staff member.

470
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,640
And so they, like, they
instilled on us deeply.

471
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,920
If you see any kind of bullying
whatsoever, you nip that in the

472
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,800
bud immediately.
But I took this personal because

473
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,080
I had this secret that no one
knew about.

474
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:35,520
I believed in that too.
So here's this boy getting

475
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,240
bullied and I came unglued.
I hadn't learned how to use my

476
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,320
filter yet and I hadn't learned
how to when, when I, I, I have,

477
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,520
I have anger problems sometimes
when it comes to things I'm

478
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,320
passionate about.
So I came unglued and I ripped

479
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,840
these kids up a new one.
And I was like, you don't make

480
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,280
fun of someone because of their
religion.

481
00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,680
Plus, he's not the only one on
this mountain that believes

482
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,240
this.
And I went, what have I done?

483
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,280
What?
That was the first time I'd ever

484
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,680
said it out loud.
And I was like, what, what have

485
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,320
I done?
Well, what I didn't know is, so

486
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,800
this took place in the little
camp store that was up at that

487
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,480
camp.
What I didn't know is the

488
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,720
trading post director at that.
So this store was called the

489
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:22,800
trading post.
What I didn't know is the

490
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,760
trading post director was
actually a fundamentalist.

491
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,840
She was an LDS that was so
there, the whole family worked

492
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,360
up there.
But she was, she was LDS and

493
00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:36,920
they had fundamentalist leanings
and they were starting that

494
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:44,400
journey.
And so later on that night, I'm,

495
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,800
I'm walking back.
So we had these staff quarters

496
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,360
where the staff slept and I had
my own little cabin and I was

497
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,800
walking back to the cabin and
she pulls me aside and she goes,

498
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,680
we need to talk.
I overheard you say something

499
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,360
earlier and I knew what she was
referring to.

500
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,480
And I was like, I'm getting
excommunicated.

501
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,680
Like I, I was freaking out.
And she goes, what did you mean

502
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,920
by this kid is not the only
person on the mountain that

503
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,240
believes in in plural marriage?
And I kind of got quiet and I

504
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,080
was just like, I 'cause she knew
I was LDS, 'cause we had had

505
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,680
some religious conversations.
And this was the first week that

506
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,760
scouts were up on the mountain.
So I had eight more weeks of

507
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,280
this crap.
It's like, Oh no, what, what

508
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,960
have I got myself into?
And I was just like, well, I

509
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,800
grew up LDS, but I kind of
believe in things that the LDS

510
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:34,200
Church doesn't really teach
anymore.

511
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,240
And she looked at me and she
goes, what if I told you,

512
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,920
Matthew, that me and my family
are right there as well?

513
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,720
And I, my jaw dropped like my,
my jaw dropped like.

514
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,880
And all the the flies were
flying in 'cause I was like.

515
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,120
Like.
You can cut that part out, but I

516
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,080
but I was just, I was like,
what?

517
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,080
Because I thought I was a freak.
I thought I was a weirdo.

518
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,840
Like here I am questioning
everything I've taught because

519
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,720
of one family that I met in the
park when I was told not to hang

520
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,440
out with them.
You know, 10 years prior, this

521
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,080
was this.
Like I said, I'm now 18 or 19.

522
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,320
So this was 10 years prior when
I met these kids.

523
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,200
You're this FLDS family.
And so now I'm meeting another

524
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,680
family that has an LDS
background and is questioning

525
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,280
everything they've ever taught.
And, and at that point, I didn't

526
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,680
know about the Adam God
doctrine.

527
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,200
I didn't know about I, I, I
hadn't received my endowment

528
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,760
yet, so I didn't quite know that
the LDS church had gone deeper

529
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,600
down changes and, and getting
not just getting rid of

530
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,200
doctrines that they once held
sacred, but also just changing

531
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,080
things left, right and center.
I didn't know that that was

532
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,360
continually happening until this
day because they, they're

533
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,280
adults, so they're further along
in their studies than I could

534
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,920
have ever been at that point.
And I just spent the rest of the

535
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:02,840
summer this, this family to this
day, I still keep into contact

536
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,240
with like they, I, I call her
mom, she's like my second mom.

537
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,960
And I call, I call him dad.
Like they're, they're, I'm so

538
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,440
close with this family to this
day.

539
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,480
And, but they, they played a big
part in me.

540
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,360
And they didn't just like teach
me necessarily either.

541
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,360
They also just showed me where I
could find more themes.

542
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,520
So like they teach me, like
they, they talk to me about a

543
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:27,920
topic.
And if I didn't know about it,

544
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,560
like Adam God, they'd be like,
all right, you need to read this

545
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,560
book or here.
This is where you're going to

546
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:34,680
find out more information on
this.

547
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:39,720
So they they they were very
careful at not indoctrinating.

548
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,600
Me.
But broadening my understanding

549
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,360
of where I was, because at that
point I was a very I called, I

550
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,120
called myself a baby
fundamentalist.

551
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:55,320
I was, I was a baby
fundamentalist, but I got older

552
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,840
and it was now time to serve a
mission.

553
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,320
And there was a lot of pressure
for me to do so.

554
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:06,680
But I had these, I had these
secret leanings as you will,

555
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,720
towards fundamentalism.
And I remember calling the Sammy

556
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,600
that I just told you about that
I had met at the scout camp.

557
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,680
And I remember calling her in
tears because I'm like, I, I

558
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,440
want to serve a mission, but how
can I serve a mission and teach

559
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,560
something completely against
what I now believe in hold

560
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,720
sacred.
And she goes, Matthew, you know,

561
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,760
you can do both, right?
She's like you, You don't have

562
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,960
to teach against these things.
You know, like, think of it as

563
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,840
you're, you're creating a
foundation for people to further

564
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,760
their understanding of, of the
Gospel.

565
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,360
And I said a prayer to Heavenly
Father.

566
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,200
And I was like, Heavenly Father,
if I serve a mission, I need you

567
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,560
to help me make just, I never
want to be put in a position

568
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:58,200
where I have to talk against
something that because I won't,

569
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,000
I, I, I, I will not talk against
plural marriage because at that

570
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,680
point I had received a testimony
of it.

571
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:09,160
I, I will not teach against
Adam, God, because at that point

572
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,920
I had a testimony of, of who
heavenly Father was.

573
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,720
And I, I won't teach against
these things.

574
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,000
And you know, it's funny because
there were moments where those

575
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,320
topics got brought up on my
mission.

576
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,920
Most definitely I served my
mission with Nauvoo down the

577
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,840
street, right?
I mean, that's a bit, that's a

578
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,320
bit dramatic.
But Nauvoo was in some of the

579
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,040
areas where I served.
Nauvoo was the temple that we

580
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,960
were assigned to.
And so I served in places where

581
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:39,200
Joseph Smith walked and and
there there was places where I

582
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,600
knocked on doors and plural
marriage would get brought up

583
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:47,040
and and Adam God theory, as a
lot of people outside of

584
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,280
fundamentalists call it, would
get brought up.

585
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,280
And I know don't that's another
topic for another day.

586
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:59,440
But but the I, it was
interesting because it was like

587
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,440
I was able to talk about those
things in a way that wasn't me

588
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,960
talking and in a way that never
once was like, well, we don't

589
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,880
practice that anymore.
I was just able to just say, you

590
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,000
know, there's so many things
that Heavenly Father has

591
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:23,040
revealed to us through the
Prophet Joseph Smith and, and

592
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,120
right now as missionaries, we're
here to talk about faith,

593
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,719
repentance, baptism, receiving
the gift of the Holy Ghost and

594
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,920
endure into the end.
And it was the weirdest thing

595
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,239
because I, I didn't have to go
against what I believed, but I

596
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,199
was able to kind of just
navigate through that, if that

597
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,159
makes any sense.
And if I'm just rambling, just

598
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,159
end it.
Oh no, dude, this, this has been

599
00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:48,880
awesome.
This has been awesome.

600
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,320
Cuz look, I, I resonate with
part of that, right?

601
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,239
Per where I came from and I've
told the story way too often on

602
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,040
here.
I start out as a closeted

603
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,440
fundamentalist in the LDS
church, right?

604
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:03,920
Like I was an elders quorum
president at the same time in

605
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,160
the LDS church as the same time
as I'm a practicing polygamist,

606
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,400
right?
And so I look at stories like

607
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,520
that, right?
And and it took me years to

608
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,920
realize this years after that
experience to to kind of look

609
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,920
back and go, well, you know, I'm
really not that special.

610
00:35:23,240 --> 00:35:26,640
And so when I start thinking
about that way, we're not the

611
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,120
only ones, right?
You that the young man having

612
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,160
those, those, those that
experience that that led you to

613
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,040
questioning the, the woman in
the trading post and her and her

614
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,680
family having those things
right.

615
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,920
I don't think doing what I did
when I was still in the LDS

616
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,240
church.
I, I have no numbers on this.

617
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:52,080
I have nothing to base this on
other than a gut feeling and a

618
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,680
few other anecdotal stories.
And while I say it's, it's

619
00:35:55,680 --> 00:36:00,320
definitely not the norm, I don't
think that if you could take a

620
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,560
peek into what people really
believe and how they really

621
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,200
live, I'm not sure it would be
all that novel, You know what I

622
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,800
mean?
I, I think that anybody who

623
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,000
takes Mormonism seriously and
ends up diving into the Journal

624
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,760
of Discourses and the early
things that were said

625
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,400
essentially come to two options,
03 options.

626
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,520
You're either going to be
fundamentalist adjacent, which

627
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,200
means you're going to be the
ultra right within the LDS

628
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,160
church.
You're going to become a.

629
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,320
Fundamental, and that exists.
Yep, Yep.

630
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,600
Or you're going to end up just
giving it all up.

631
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,040
Those are really your three
options, right?

632
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,000
Is it possible to to read those
things and then maybe say, well,

633
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:41,560
I'm just following the the
current guy?

634
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,960
Sure, I think that could be a
possibility too, but I think

635
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,080
that would take a lot of mental
gymnastics.

636
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,120
And so at some point it's either
you're going to be an ultra

637
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,560
right member of the LDS church.
And when I say right, you know,

638
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,720
not put politics aside, talking
more about, you know, right,

639
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:02,240
being those old school doctrines
and being fundamentalist

640
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:05,280
adjacent, you become
fundamentalist or you, you just

641
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,400
leave it all alone.
And it's tough once you know,

642
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,680
there's no putting that genie
back in the bottle.

643
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,160
I, I have said that that for LDS
people who, who make that

644
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:21,160
decision, it very much is a, a
Adam and Eve kind of moment in

645
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:22,800
the garden.
You're going to partake of that

646
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,480
fruit and there's really no
going back.

647
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:31,000
You you can probably sway those
those that knowledge and that

648
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,280
feeling for a little while, but
at some point it will be

649
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,440
reckoned with.
Yeah.

650
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:39,920
So at what point it it and
again, you don't have to answer

651
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:44,480
this, but at what point do you
do you like say, OK, and I think

652
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,040
I'm a full on fundamentalist,
right?

653
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:51,760
Like, I think I need to pursue
that religious course, right?

654
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:58,360
So, so my mission was they put a
big push on being exact

655
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,720
obedient.
Like letter my my mission

656
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:06,360
president was like letter of the
law like he was, he was so

657
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,000
strict.
I love, I love my mission

658
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:09,200
president.
He's exactly what I needed.

659
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,200
I needed that is rigidity.
Is that the right word?

660
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:21,960
Like I, I needed, I needed that.
And so we the in when you serve

661
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,680
a mission, I don't know how it
is now, because like I'm a

662
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,720
fundamentalist Mormon.
So I, it's been a minute.

663
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,840
It it's been a minute, but and I
served my mission in the early

664
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,200
two or two early 2000.
No, I did not in like the early

665
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,640
So I served from 2012 to 2014.
So I guess that's kind of early

666
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,280
2000s.
I guess you could call it that

667
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:46,960
but whatever.
So I digress.

668
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,600
So my mission present was very
strict letter in law and back

669
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,960
then, and it very well still may
be the case, but back then they

670
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,840
had a list of the books you were
allowed to read.

671
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:58,400
And, and I'm an avid reader.
I love to read.

672
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,320
And you could read the standard
works and there was like 3 other

673
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,760
books.
And I think by 6 months into my

674
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,000
mission, I'd already read all of
them twice.

675
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,560
And I was like, well, well,
crap, what do I, what do I do

676
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:11,840
with this?
Like I've already read

677
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,360
everything.
And so I just was like, you know

678
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,120
what I'm gonna read the Doctrine
and Covenants was the one area

679
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,600
that I just, I, I love Doctrine
and Covenants, but I felt like I

680
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,720
hadn't read those as much as
some of the other standard

681
00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:26,840
works.
I was like, I'll just reread

682
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:30,600
Doctrine and Covenants.
And I started rereading it now

683
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,480
with a new lens.
And I remember reading it and

684
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,240
being like, all these check
marks were just coming.

685
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:39,600
Like we, we don't do this
anymore.

686
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,120
We don't do this anymore.
Like, why is this being written

687
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,720
in a way where some people were
getting chastised for not doing

688
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:49,640
it And there was serious
consequences just for certain

689
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:50,960
aspects.
And I don't mean a specific

690
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,080
doctrine like plural marriage or
law of consecration, but just

691
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,840
like even smaller things.
I was like and I couldn't give

692
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,840
you an exact example, but here I
am just.

693
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:02,800
What do I, what do I do with
this?

694
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:03,920
Right.
So I'm, I'm reading the

695
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,080
scriptures and I'm seeing all
these things that the LDS church

696
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:11,040
just isn't doing anymore.
And I remember being like, This

697
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,880
is why I met that family when I
was younger.

698
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,960
This is why I met that family on
the mountain at that scout camp

699
00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,880
in that training post.
And, and there was just all

700
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,800
these things where I'm starting
to see Heavenly father guiding

701
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,160
my path up until that point.
So I'm reading the Doctrine and

702
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:32,400
Covenants, I finish it and I'm
started reading it again and I

703
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:33,880
am like 6 months into my
mission.

704
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:35,840
So I probably by the time my
mission ended, I read doctrine

705
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:41,840
and covenants 8 times and I, I
just became obsessed.

706
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:48,880
I, I loved just to me the
doctrine and covenants to me

707
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:54,200
are, are very specific to, to
the Saints, right?

708
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:57,280
Like I feel like the Book of
Mormon is for everybody but

709
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,160
doctrine, and so is Doctrine and
Covenants, but I just feel like

710
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,040
the Doctrine and Covenants is
like a training manual for not

711
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,560
to be dramatic, but exaltation.
And I just, I remember reading

712
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,880
those again and again and again.
And it's just, every time I read

713
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:20,080
it, it was just, I became even
further convinced that the

714
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:21,840
church had gone astray.
And I love the church.

715
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,520
I will never jump on the bash
the church bandwagon that is

716
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,400
repulsive to me.
The the LDS church taught me

717
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,520
everything.
I I I am so grateful for the

718
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:32,920
foundation the LDS church
taught.

719
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,880
I am not one that can be like
they lied to me because I don't

720
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,000
think it's that black and white.
I don't think the LDS church was

721
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,880
ever pushing an agenda, you
know, and, and so I just.

722
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,640
But yeah, at that point, after
reading it over and over and

723
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:52,120
over again, the Doctrine and
Covenants, I, I knew that

724
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:53,880
Heavenly Father was trying to
tell me something, even though

725
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:55,880
he had been for many, many
years.

726
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,120
But I still felt I needed to
finish my mission.

727
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,600
And not for any other reason
other than I still felt that I

728
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,240
needed to serve God for
everything he had done for me.

729
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,240
And I still feel that I, the
mission served a purpose.

730
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,720
It, it wasn't leading people
astray.

731
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:17,600
It was helping people on a
journey because I grew up in the

732
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,520
church.
I don't regret growing up in the

733
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,760
church.
And if I could give someone that

734
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,560
foundation, I think that's a
good path to put them on.

735
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,560
And I'm not saying I am meaning
like glory be mine, but I just

736
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,400
mean partaking of that.
And I just felt that that was

737
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,920
something I needed to do.
So I finished my mission and it,

738
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,440
that's kind of where it all
started.

739
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,120
There's, and of course like
this, this is, this is spreading

740
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,680
over so many years.
And so I mean, this, this,

741
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,120
there's obviously details I'm
leaving out because it just

742
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,720
would take hours and hours and
hours to answer just that one

743
00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:54,800
question.
But so I was, I was pretty much

744
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,440
a fundamentalist at that point.
I, I was before my mission for

745
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,160
sure, but I hadn't really put a
label on it until like 6 months

746
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:03,680
into my mission.
I remember actually talking to

747
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,240
one of my companions towards the
end of my mission about plural

748
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:11,360
marriage and how I was like,
look, I can give you 500 quotes

749
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:16,040
without even digging into a book
right off, just in, in my noggin

750
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,880
showing that we were never
supposed to get rid of this

751
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,440
doctrine, you know, showing that
we were never supposed to change

752
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,840
this, that and that that point I
had received my endowment.

753
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,640
And so, 'cause you have to
receive an endowment, you have

754
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,840
to receive your endowment in the
temple in order to serve a

755
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:36,800
mission in the LDS Church.
And so I think falling in love

756
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,840
with the temple ordinances also
played a huge part in me being

757
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,640
like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa.

758
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,200
The LDS Church has done more
than just say we're not

759
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,040
practicing certain doctrines
anymore.

760
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,440
I now started in doing my
studies realizing that they

761
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,320
didn't even change the temple
ordinances.

762
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,640
And that was mind boggling to
me.

763
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,680
You know, I, because I, I had
heard things from other people,

764
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,160
even mission companions, they'd
be like, yeah, my dad said that

765
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,360
the endowment I received was a
little different from the

766
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,320
endowment that my father
received.

767
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,240
And, and even with me, I
remember my dad telling me that

768
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:17,760
there was some things that were
a little different from when I

769
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,480
received mine because obviously
my dad was there when I received

770
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,360
my endowment.
My dad even was like, yeah, in

771
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,080
the endowment I received,
there's been some things that

772
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,400
they no longer do that were done
when I received mine.

773
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,560
And I remember thinking even
then, in that moment, this was

774
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,960
right before I stood my mission.
I remember even in that moment

775
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:38,360
being like, Dad, why, why, Why
did Joseph Smith reveal things a

776
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:43,320
certain way and establish things
a certain way just to say, let

777
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,600
let's change it in 50 years, you
know, like even the garment.

778
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,200
And we're gonna get on that
topic, I'm assuming, at some

779
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:51,560
point.
In this conversation like.

780
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,320
Even the garment, my dad was
like, yeah, even the garment has

781
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:56,840
changed.
And so a lot of it was things

782
00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:00,400
that like LDS people were
telling me like, which is so

783
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:05,720
wild to me that the, so many
people know that these changes

784
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:10,240
are taking place and it's not a
red flag to them, you know, and,

785
00:45:10,240 --> 00:45:13,360
and I'll never know why it's a
red flag to some and, and, and

786
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,680
not to everybody.
And maybe it's just because

787
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,480
we're all on a journey and
Heavenly Father has different

788
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:19,880
paths and different plans for
us.

789
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:21,920
I don't know.
But it was a red flag to me.

790
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:24,440
I just, I didn't set right.
I didn't want the abridged

791
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,880
endowment.
I did not want the abridged

792
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,800
endowment.
And when I found out, and I

793
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,320
can't remember where that was in
my journey, but when I found out

794
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,040
that it had changed that just
something just struck me.

795
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,520
Like I remember having the
question one day, like, are we

796
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,400
even living the gospel that
Joseph Smith gave his life for?

797
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,520
Like, because I'm like, if
Joseph Smith lived the gospel

798
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,080
the way that we as LDS people
practice it now, he probably

799
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,640
would have lived until into his
90s.

800
00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:01,320
And so I'm like, for whatever
reason, he lived it the way that

801
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,640
God told him to live it.
And we're not doing that.

802
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:08,720
And, and that crossed into every
facet of of Mormonism, from

803
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:12,360
endowment to plural marriage to
the garments.

804
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,800
There was just so many things
that just weren't being done

805
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,400
anymore the way that they once
were.

806
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:20,560
Yep, absolutely.
No, you're right dude.

807
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,720
There's so much there that that
I I agree with.

808
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:25,800
I think I've said this before on
the podcast.

809
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,120
I'm kind of glad you brought it
up that the Book of Mormon is

810
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,240
for everybody, but the Doctrine
and Covenants is kind of for the

811
00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:35,840
Saints, right?
It is, I think how you put it.

812
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,040
And my contention for a long
time has been, and, and this is

813
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,440
not a knock on any book of
scripture.

814
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,720
I want to get that out of.
The way 100%.

815
00:46:44,720 --> 00:46:46,000
Right.
I want to get that out of the

816
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,480
way.
I love the Book of Mormon and I

817
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:52,800
want to say you can find aspects
of this in the Book of Mormon,

818
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,800
but you, you got to know what
you're looking for.

819
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,120
But what we find in in the Old
Testament, the New Testament in

820
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,200
the Book of Mormon is, is that
those are texts that deal

821
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:08,280
largely with salvation, right?
Salvation is different than

822
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,240
exaltation.
And it's not all the time.

823
00:47:11,240 --> 00:47:13,560
It's.
My and, and it's not till you

824
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:17,600
get to the Doctrine and
Covenants and especially the

825
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,360
Nabu period of the doctrine and
covenants and supplemented with

826
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,200
other things that Joseph said in
like teachings of the Prophet

827
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,000
Joseph Smith, which look, I do
consider scripture, right

828
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,840
definition of the word,
according to Mormonism is

829
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,560
anything that the, the servants
of God say while moved upon by

830
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,320
the Holy Ghost.
And so I have no problem saying

831
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,000
what, what, what are in the
teachings of the Prophet Joseph

832
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,040
Smith, especially during that
Nauvoo period.

833
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,760
That's where we start to see
things that will become

834
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,600
quintessentially Mormon.
That's going to differentiate it

835
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,960
from the rest of secular
sectarian Christianity.

836
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:53,880
And so I couldn't agree with you
more.

837
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:57,560
And, and what you said about
about the LDS Church and not

838
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,120
wanting to bash on it.
Look, I've, I've taken my shots

839
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,240
from time to time when I felt it
was appropriate, right?

840
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:08,360
However, I don't go out of my
way to do that because like you,

841
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,880
I enjoyed my time there.
I feel like it set me up for

842
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,840
everything else I would do
later, right?

843
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,280
And so I, I don't have a grudge
against the LDS Church.

844
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:20,640
I just don't, I, I felt like I
got what I needed there.

845
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,200
And I, and I, you know, the Lord
directed me to move on and

846
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:25,720
that's what I did.
So no, that's, that's good

847
00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:27,320
stuff.
I appreciate you diving into

848
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,400
that.
So dude, let's move on to the

849
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,600
garments.
Like how'd you get like wrapped

850
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:35,240
up into the garment, right?
Like of all the things that that

851
00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:38,000
you could have got wrapped up
with, you know, vicarious work

852
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:43,800
for the dead, true nature of
God, additional Scripture, the

853
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:45,640
garment.
That's that's the one that got

854
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:45,960
you.
What?

855
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,520
What was it about the garment
that really got you?

856
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,360
I think because the garment, you
can't separate temple work and

857
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,520
the garment, right?
So you, so, and if any point, if

858
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,440
I'm talking about things,
there's difference between

859
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,640
sacred and secret.
And that's something we hear a

860
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,080
lot in the LDS Church.
That's such a Mormon phrase.

861
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,840
But if any point I'm talking
about things that are a little

862
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,360
too sacred to talk about, just
just remind me, you know, just

863
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,440
say, whoa, pause, because I do
get passionate about it.

864
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:15,880
And sometimes that filter gets
lifted.

865
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:20,200
But you cannot separate temple
work from the garment.

866
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,440
It's, it's a facet of it.
It's, it's a part of it.

867
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,200
You receive your garment when
you receive your endowment, when

868
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,080
you're doing temple work, when
you, when you go through the

869
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:33,080
temple for the first time.
And, and so for me, I remember,

870
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:34,480
so I received my endowment in
Saint George.

871
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:40,000
This is the LDS endowment.
And I remember my, so my mom

872
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,720
passed away last year.
And, but she, my mom was a

873
00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:45,440
staunch believer in the Prophet
Joseph Smith.

874
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,880
And, and she, she, my mom had a
way of teaching the Gospel that

875
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,680
was just profound, but also
beautifully simple.

876
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,840
And I remember, so she, her and
my dad came to the Saint George

877
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,160
Temple when I received my
endowment.

878
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:07,320
And in order to get your mission
call, you had to or in order to,

879
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,720
sorry, I keep going back, but
it's to further this

880
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:15,000
conversation.
So in order to go on a mission,

881
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,160
you have to receive your
endowment.

882
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,200
But my state president had he
had this rule where he wouldn't

883
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:27,160
even let you go to you couldn't
even put your how do I word

884
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:28,320
this?
I can't remember exactly the

885
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:33,800
details, but basically there was
this rule that you had to go to

886
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:39,240
temple prep class.
I'm trying to there.

887
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:42,800
There's an aspect of it.
Basically my mission call got

888
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,600
lost in the mail.
And so when it was time for me

889
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:49,640
to report to the MTC, I had like
literally 2 weeks.

890
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,280
OK, this is it.
So in order in order to start

891
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:54,880
your temple prep class, you had
to have your mission call.

892
00:50:55,640 --> 00:51:00,200
So when I finally got my mission
call, it was like I had two

893
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,920
weeks to receive my endowment
and I hadn't gone through temple

894
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,560
prep.
And so I get to the temple and

895
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,000
my dad was gonna be gone for two
weeks.

896
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,200
So I literally like and this and
the Vegas temple was being

897
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:16,200
renovated.
So I, I had a like 2 day window

898
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:17,520
to when I could get the
endowment.

899
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,680
So we called Saint George and
Saint George was like, normally

900
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,520
we don't allow people to that
quickly.

901
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:27,280
Like we don't usually we set
your endowment date like a month

902
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,840
down the road.
But your situation is very

903
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,480
unique, as is every aspect of my
life.

904
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,560
Your situation is very unique.
We will accommodate you.

905
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,320
So the very next day we drove to
Saint George and I got my

906
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,720
endowment and let me tell you,
deer in the headlights, I was

907
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:50,400
not prepared at all.
I was not prepared at all.

908
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:55,800
And my mom, who was just so
intuitive and so incredible.

909
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,400
I think we, when we get into
that first room, at that point,

910
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,240
I'd already received my garment.
It's part of the preparatory

911
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:06,560
part.
So I, I had received my, my

912
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,040
garment.
I was now wearing the garment

913
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,840
and now I'm brought into a room
where my mom was waiting for me.

914
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:13,800
And that's where the endowment
kind of begins.

915
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:19,640
And it's, it's a, in the
endowment, you basically walk

916
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,400
through the creation from Adam
and Eve all the way through.

917
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,600
And so it was in the Saint
George Temple is very unique

918
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,480
because it's a pioneer temple.
So you have these separate rooms

919
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,160
that are based on each aspect of
the endowment.

920
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,760
So I'm now in the creation room,
which is the starting room, and

921
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,600
I'm now wearing my temple
garment and I'm dressed in

922
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:41,120
white.
And I walk in and there my mom

923
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,080
is sitting and my mom grabs me
by the hand and she looks at me

924
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:47,720
and she goes, don't even try to
understand this.

925
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,520
You have a lifetime to
understand this.

926
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,800
I want you to right now just
focus on how you feel and focus

927
00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:00,560
on focus on that.
And that's what I did.

928
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:06,840
I I couldn't really tell you
everything that went on that

929
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:12,440
day, but I remember leaving the
endowment and I was like this,

930
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,080
this is incredible, the feeling
that I felt that day.

931
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,040
Even though the endowment was
shortened, it was not as long as

932
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:21,960
it once was.
In the early days of the church.

933
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:23,400
Things had changed at that
point.

934
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,520
I still felt the spirit very
strongly and I fell in love with

935
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,360
temple work that day.
I fell in love with temple work

936
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:31,760
that day.
And temples were always very

937
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,120
important to me.
Like my mom and I, she would

938
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:39,120
take me on like walks around the
temple in Las Vegas, like every

939
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,080
Sunday, just her and I, It was
like our, I had a handful of

940
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,840
siblings And so that was just
how her and I spent alone time

941
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,200
together, right?
Like we should just, we'd walk

942
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:49,960
around the temple and she'd
answer my question.

943
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,080
So I'd already kind of had a
love prior to that, but that

944
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:57,920
that really instilled it that
receiving my endowment in Saint

945
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,000
George and it would just kind of
paved the way from that day

946
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:02,200
forward.
I just fell in love.

947
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,840
I fell in love with, with temple
work.

948
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,240
And why, why the garment as you
asked?

949
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:12,400
Like why of all things that I
could find myself attached to.

950
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:17,160
The garment has just always been
kind of like a little Leahona

951
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:23,040
for me.
I, I have my own struggles and

952
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:28,600
temptations and things I've had
to overcome in my life and the

953
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,280
garment has just kind of given
me a strength.

954
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,040
So what is the garment for those
that have never, for those of

955
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,760
you who a lot of people who have
a morning background know what

956
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,720
the garment is, but for those of
you who are listening to this,

957
00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:42,720
you may not know.
So Matthew, when you go to yes.

958
00:54:43,240 --> 00:54:46,200
Before we dive in here, I just
want to point something out

959
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:49,480
'cause I and And then I want to
dive right back into where you

960
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:55,040
left off 'cause it.
But your mom gave you such great

961
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,760
advice on your first trip
through the temple, right?

962
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:04,440
Don't worry about understanding
everything, just focus on the

963
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:09,640
way you feel.
While feelings can't be an

964
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:13,000
anchor for for eternity, right,
At some point you're going to.

965
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:14,640
Have to.
You're going to.

966
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:18,360
You're going to have to get the
why, but I think that's wise

967
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,000
advice no matter what part of
the gospel.

968
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,640
And look, this is something else
I want to say is that that the

969
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:28,480
gospel should stretch us.
It should cause us to to reach

970
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,200
higher than maybe we would
otherwise.

971
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:35,160
And that comes with struggle.
And what what your mom said

972
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,160
there, I think is so wise,
right?

973
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,080
As we're struggling to
understand things sometimes in

974
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,840
that struggle, we need to pay
attention to how we feel, right?

975
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,520
And, and I don't know about you
and, and I won't pretend to, to

976
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,200
put words in your mouth here,
but for me, even when I

977
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,120
struggled with things like Adam,
God, trying to wrap my mind

978
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:58,840
around it, it was one of those
things where I was like, well, I

979
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:01,120
don't understand this.
I'm not sure I'm ever going to

980
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:02,680
understand this.
I'm not sure I could ever

981
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:08,920
explain this, but it makes me I,
I know it's right by the way I

982
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:13,760
feel right.
And then later all the, the, the

983
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,720
knowledge that starts to jump
off the page after, you know,

984
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:21,760
once I can just say, I, I know
it to be true, it starts,

985
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:24,680
everything starts to make sense
up here right in your head.

986
00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:28,280
But your mom was absolutely wise
in that.

987
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,160
And that thought of just pay
attention to your heart right

988
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,400
now and your head will follow
later.

989
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,040
So great, great advice.
I, I, I just wanted to point

990
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,640
that out because I think that
applies to so many things in the

991
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:43,320
gospel, not just temple work.
But anyway, go ahead, pick up

992
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:44,480
with the garment.
There Yeah.

993
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:50,000
So I just remember going through
the going through the endowment

994
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,120
and didn't quite understand it
all and I look back and I was

995
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,240
like, you know what you probably
should be prepared when you're

996
00:56:57,240 --> 00:57:00,640
making covenants with God, you
probably should have understood

997
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:02,680
a little bit more what you were
getting yourself into.

998
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,520
But for whatever reason, that's
not how it worked for me.

999
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:14,440
And so now that I've, I'm 33 and
I've, I've lived a life, I now

1000
00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:16,720
very much understand the
covenants that I've made.

1001
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,400
But back then I, I did exactly
what my mom said.

1002
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:27,800
And garments are a reminder of,
of those covenants that you

1003
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:32,200
make.
The garment represents your

1004
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,640
temple covenants in clothing
form.

1005
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,920
It is a, it is a physical
representation of the covenants

1006
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,160
that you are making in the
temple when you receive your

1007
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:47,240
endowment.
And that that to me has been a

1008
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,440
compass throughout my life.
You know, I, I haven't always

1009
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,160
been perfect.
I've made a lot of mistakes,

1010
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:53,760
even after I received my
endowment.

1011
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,880
I'm grateful for the atonement
that I can be forgiven of those

1012
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:02,880
things.
But the garment is, it's just

1013
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,920
one of those things that when
you understand what you're

1014
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,160
wearing, there is a power there.
You know, it's not a lot of, a

1015
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,400
lot of people outside of
Mormonism call it magical

1016
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,880
underwear because I think
there's, there's a lot of

1017
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,480
folklore surrounding the
garment.

1018
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,200
You know, I, I work in
healthcare.

1019
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,800
I can tell you from first hand
that they're not gonna stop a

1020
00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,080
bullet.
You know, like, I'm sure they

1021
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,440
maybe they could and maybe they
have, but that's not always the

1022
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:37,680
case.
But there is, there is power

1023
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:41,920
that comes from when you are
doing what God wants you to do,

1024
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:46,240
when you are living up to those
covenants, There's a protection

1025
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,880
that comes from there.
And and I think that's where the

1026
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:54,160
garment comes into play is it is
a reminder of those covenants.

1027
00:58:54,160 --> 00:59:04,360
It the temple garment is so it's
so symbolic.

1028
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:08,760
You know, when, when Adam and
Eve were in the garden of were

1029
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:14,600
in the garden of Eden, a garment
was placed on them right before

1030
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:16,520
they left the garden of Eden,
right.

1031
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:21,120
They when they partook of the
fruit, when they partook of the

1032
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,440
forbidden fruit, they became
ashamed.

1033
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,720
They hid their nakedness.
They covered themselves in fig

1034
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:32,600
leaves and, and it goes deeper
than that, but God was like, no,

1035
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,920
that's, that's not what you
should be wearing.

1036
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:39,800
And he clothed them.
He, he gifted them these, these

1037
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,040
sacred clothing articles.
The garment.

1038
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:44,960
Do I believe that the garment
that we wear now is exactly what

1039
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,200
Adam and Eve wore?
No, if you know anything about

1040
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,120
textiles, you know that that's
not the case.

1041
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:54,400
Like, I'm sorry, there.
There's just, that's just not a

1042
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,040
thing back then.
Like there was not cotton

1043
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,640
hanging from the trees.
That God was just like, boom,

1044
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:04,160
you know?
But the garment represents that

1045
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:09,720
article of clothing that Adam
and Eve were given by God.

1046
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,080
And and when you wear it,
thinking of it like that, this

1047
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:17,080
is a gift from Elohim, that what
you're wearing is symbolic.

1048
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:22,280
When Adam and Eve had fell, this
was after they had fallen.

1049
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:28,440
God gave them this garment to
wear as a reminder of his love

1050
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,840
for them.
And when you think of it like

1051
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,400
that, that the garment that you
are wearing is a reminder of

1052
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:38,520
God's love and a two way promise
between you and him.

1053
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:43,000
It's, it goes beyond just a
weird piece of clothing that

1054
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,320
you're wearing that not a lot of
people understand.

1055
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,680
You know, Mormons didn't
recreate the didn't recreate the

1056
01:00:48,680 --> 01:00:51,040
wheel.
Every religion has sacred

1057
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:55,960
articles of clothing, right?
You've got the priestly robes in

1058
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:00,360
Judaism.
They, they have their own garbs

1059
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,960
that they wear, you know, they
also have head coverings.

1060
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,040
You know, there's, there's so
many things that this isn't

1061
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:11,760
singular to Mormonism.
It's just, it's just different,

1062
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:17,960
you know, and it's, it is the
garment has just been a, a

1063
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:23,880
guiding force in my life.
I, when I'm wearing the garment,

1064
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,920
I feel so different than when
I'm not wearing it.

1065
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:33,840
And, and there I, I can feel a
difference even Yeah, it's I, I

1066
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,400
can just, I feel closer to God
when I'm wearing that because I

1067
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:41,160
am constantly reminded,
especially compared to what the

1068
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:45,800
LDS church uses as a garment now
and what Joseph Smith, you know,

1069
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:48,680
revealed to the people like so
fundamentalists, most

1070
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:52,080
fundamentalists wear a full body
garment that goes to their hands

1071
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:54,440
and wrists.
The LDS church through the years

1072
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:58,480
have kind of changed that so
that it fits more into modern

1073
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,680
clothing.
It's now more like AT shirt and

1074
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:06,240
boxer shorts compared to what we
use now or what we use then.

1075
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:10,560
I mean, and so I definitely,
there is a difference from when

1076
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:15,320
I was wearing my LDS style
garment to how I feel when I'm

1077
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:23,200
wearing the original pattern.
And, and I, I love, I love

1078
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,720
talking about it.
I love like, it's such a weird

1079
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:27,160
thing.
I'm like, let me talk to you

1080
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:29,520
about my underwear.
Like, I know that, I know that

1081
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:35,680
sounds like that probably sounds
so strange, but I am so grateful

1082
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:39,040
for what it actually represents
that I think it is something

1083
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,760
that we need to talk about more
as a people because it, I'm

1084
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:44,400
sorry, if you type in Mormon on
Google, you're going to, the

1085
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:46,040
garment's gonna pop up
eventually.

1086
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,840
It's it's not something you can
tiptoe around because it's it's

1087
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:55,720
very wildly known that we have
that Mormons wear unique

1088
01:02:55,720 --> 01:03:00,760
underwear to their faith.
Yeah, you know, you know, and,

1089
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,520
and you're, you're right.
And that's I'm glad you hit on

1090
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,800
it.
Is that this idea of of of

1091
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:12,160
sacred clothing or is clothing
that is set apart as as sacred

1092
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:16,000
and consecrated is not unique to
Mormonism whatsoever right?

1093
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:18,240
We can look at at Catholic
priests.

1094
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:20,560
There's a reason that caller is
there, right?

1095
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:25,640
It it is, is a designation.
If we look like you were saying

1096
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:32,280
Judaism is is just rife with
with ceremonial clothing and and

1097
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:34,760
whatnot.
This is no different than that.

1098
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,520
I think the only thing that
makes this different than that

1099
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:41,800
is that it's worn under the
clothes, right?

1100
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:46,480
And so given our, our Western
civilizations leanings towards

1101
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,520
that, it's kind of giggly in the
terms of it's, it's sacred.

1102
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:50,360
Underwear.
Right.

1103
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,320
And and that's, and that's kind
of where, where the rub goes.

1104
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:58,200
And look, I've, I've said this
too, don't, don't be so

1105
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:00,800
sensitive about that.
If someone wants to tease you

1106
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:01,840
about it even.
Right.

1107
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,920
Like, Oh yeah, just just own it,
right.

1108
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:07,960
And the best thing you can do is
just own it and and move on.

1109
01:04:08,280 --> 01:04:14,080
Because as you do, it becomes
less and less of an issue and.

1110
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:15,800
Well, and that's how you break a
taboo.

1111
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:17,960
You want to break something that
is taboo.

1112
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,640
If you want to break a
stereotype, talk about it.

1113
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:25,240
You people only fear what they
don't understand and that goes

1114
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:31,840
into anything like if you, the
only way you are going to, the

1115
01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:35,240
only way you're gonna change
people's minds on things that

1116
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,520
may seem weird to them is to
talk about it.

1117
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:39,400
And you can talk about things
without being sacred.

1118
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,360
You know, there, there are
things about the garment that I,

1119
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:46,760
I don't go into, you know,
especially in a setting like

1120
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:53,120
this that is out in the open and
you're getting, I mean, there's,

1121
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:55,960
so I, I will say this.
So on the garment there are

1122
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:59,160
symbols and, and I won't go into
detail about what those symbols

1123
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:04,040
are and what they represent,
other than they do represent the

1124
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:06,400
specific covenants that you're
making in the temple.

1125
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:11,840
And, and so I think for me is
you can, you can have those

1126
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:13,440
conversations.
You can say, yeah, there are,

1127
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:18,960
there are things on the garment
that aren't, aren't your

1128
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:25,080
standard to, to clothing, but
you can do that in a way that

1129
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:26,880
isn't breaking your, your
covenants.

1130
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:29,240
You're not you.
You can share without

1131
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:31,080
oversharing.
I agree.

1132
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:36,360
I agree.
And you know, that's, you

1133
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:39,040
brought up something else that I
think is hugely important when

1134
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:43,840
we leave the temple.
And for the, for those in the

1135
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:48,920
mainstream, in most
fundamentalist temple

1136
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:52,760
endowments, we still have the
oath of vengeance, right?

1137
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,040
It's the oath of vengeance in
the garment that you were told

1138
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:59,320
specifically will leave with you
out of the temple, right?

1139
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:02,080
That that those are the things
that that you're going to do.

1140
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:08,480
And the garment is something
special in that it, it's, it's a

1141
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:12,520
physical mark, right?
It is something that is

1142
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:17,840
absolutely a reminder of of
those covenants you've entered

1143
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:21,800
into.
And because that is what it is,

1144
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:28,600
it's awfully hard to to escape
the thought of your living a

1145
01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:34,920
consecrated life.
And, and so often if, if there's

1146
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:38,560
one thing I've, I've sought to,
to try to impress upon people

1147
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:42,000
and, and my kids are no
different, even the ones still

1148
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:44,360
in the LDS church who went
through the temple is like,

1149
01:06:44,360 --> 01:06:47,800
look, you should leave the
temple different than you walked

1150
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:51,600
in, right?
You, you should now be living a

1151
01:06:51,600 --> 01:06:54,480
consecrated life.
So often I hear people say,

1152
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:56,000
well, I would die for my
religion.

1153
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:57,960
That's great.
I'm glad.

1154
01:06:58,360 --> 01:06:59,840
But will you live for your
religion?

1155
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:01,920
And those are two different
things.

1156
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:08,120
And when that garment should be
a reminder to people that, hey,

1157
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:11,200
you've entered this consecrated
way of living, right?

1158
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,840
Even if you're not in a united
order, you should be 100%

1159
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:18,800
consecrated to your God going
out of there and the principles

1160
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,640
that he espouses and like.
Well, there is a protection that

1161
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:25,720
comes from it.
You know, there, there really

1162
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:27,120
is.
Like I said, it's not, it's not

1163
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,840
magic in the sense that it puts
this orb around you that's gonna

1164
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:32,880
build out.
Like if you're wearing your

1165
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:37,040
garment, you stand in front of a
train, you're gonna get you're

1166
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:38,560
gonna get shredded.
You know what I mean?

1167
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:40,480
Like you, you didn't become
Superman.

1168
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:44,800
Like right?
But there is a spiritual

1169
01:07:44,800 --> 01:07:52,040
protection there and, and, and
maybe maybe that because you,

1170
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:55,840
you've made covenants with God,
maybe the Spirit is going to

1171
01:07:55,840 --> 01:08:01,080
help you not get near the train
tracks like, you know, and it's,

1172
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,200
and it is a spirit.
Like I like I said, I notice a

1173
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:06,600
vast difference when I'm wearing
my garment and when I'm not.

1174
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:12,120
And I feel like I can overcome
temptation a lot easier.

1175
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:18,720
I feel, I feel like I'm not as
tempted as as much when I'm

1176
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:20,920
wearing it.
And, and it's hard to say why.

1177
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:25,160
It's hard to say why.
Maybe it's because I'm just, I

1178
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:29,279
promised Heavenly Father I would
wear my garment and he is

1179
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:32,279
helping me more because I'm, I'm
living up to what, when we, when

1180
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:35,120
we live up to what God has asked
us to do, there's going to be

1181
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:40,920
blessings established to that,
you know, and whether that's the

1182
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:43,600
garment itself that's doing
that, that's, I think it's,

1183
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:48,359
that's a very, that's between
the person and, and God, But I

1184
01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:52,680
do know that there is a
difference and I, I'm very happy

1185
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:55,399
to share that with people.
Absolutely.

1186
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:57,960
Let me ask you this question
because this is something that

1187
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:01,600
comes up and and the same thing
you said to me about treading on

1188
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:04,399
sacred things.
If if I do the same, just say,

1189
01:09:04,399 --> 01:09:06,760
hey, I'm not answering that.
Shut your pie hole and we'll

1190
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:11,359
move on.
But I would like to explore the

1191
01:09:11,359 --> 01:09:15,560
differences because as I, as I
sat back and thought about it,

1192
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,279
there's really two types of a
garment right now.

1193
01:09:19,279 --> 01:09:22,359
I know that there's little
differences, but from group to

1194
01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:25,359
group or independence to
independence, right?

1195
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:30,279
But by and large it's it's a
fairly similar pattern in

1196
01:09:30,319 --> 01:09:32,800
fundamentalism.
I, I said this from the LDS

1197
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,960
church.
So if you were to glate, so I,

1198
01:09:36,279 --> 01:09:40,200
I, so my mom was a seamstress.
I, she taught me to sew.

1199
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:43,439
I have made garments for, for
people from, from various

1200
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:46,160
backgrounds.
And if you were to look at the

1201
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:49,040
garment, if you were to lay it
side by side from all the

1202
01:09:49,040 --> 01:09:52,560
different groups and just look
in the front and just look like

1203
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:56,200
face forward, straight on,
they're going to be identical.

1204
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:58,480
You know, it's usually in the
back and how they're sewn

1205
01:09:58,480 --> 01:10:00,680
together in the back and, and
different aspects of it's going

1206
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:04,400
to make it different.
But they're 95990, I'd say 98%

1207
01:10:04,480 --> 01:10:06,960
all the same, you know.
Absolutely.

1208
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,880
Yep, Yep, absolutely good.
I'm glad I just, I didn't know

1209
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:13,320
that for certain.
I was just making assumptions

1210
01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:16,400
based off of what I heard, but
that it sounds like that's about

1211
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:18,800
right.
You've you've made garments for

1212
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:23,760
different people in different
different groups or independents

1213
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:25,680
or whatever.
So you probably have a pretty

1214
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:29,200
good feel for it.
But so there's essentially two

1215
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:30,360
types of garment.
There's kind of the

1216
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,920
fundamentalist garment and then
there's the LDS garment.

1217
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:37,720
And I know it's the only reason
I'm bringing this up is because

1218
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:41,840
this is a question I get from
the mainstream folks a lot,

1219
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:44,720
right?
Let let's talk a little bit

1220
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:46,160
about the differences.
I'm not going to.

1221
01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:51,640
I'm going to try to not.
I'm going to try not to to make

1222
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:54,920
this a thing of I'm right,
you're wrong, but.

1223
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:57,040
I do feel like we're just
talking.

1224
01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:59,360
About We want to illuminate.
We want to illuminate the

1225
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:01,000
differences.
Does that make sense, Matthew?

1226
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:05,960
Yeah, absolutely.
So, so that would be my thing.

1227
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:08,520
Can you illuminate for us the
different types here, but the

1228
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:10,960
the LDS garment versus a
fundamentalist garment?

1229
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:13,440
Yeah.
So in order to do that, you kind

1230
01:11:13,440 --> 01:11:15,000
of have to understand where they
are different.

1231
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:20,200
So with with what you're calling
the fundamentalist garment,

1232
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:22,920
you're going to have a full body
garment very similar to the

1233
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:27,640
union suit.
Am I allowed to talk about like

1234
01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:31,120
what is on that other than like
I won't go into details of the

1235
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:33,920
symbols, but can I talk about?
Yeah, OK, Yep.

1236
01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:36,360
So the differences in the marks.
Yeah.

1237
01:11:36,520 --> 01:11:38,000
Yeah, yeah.
So you've got a collar.

1238
01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:42,640
The garment, the original
garment pattern has a collar.

1239
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:48,440
It is closed off by ties.
So it's there's a seam down the

1240
01:11:48,440 --> 01:11:51,520
middle and it opens up and then
there's ties on each side.

1241
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:55,400
There's three sets.
Historically there has been four

1242
01:11:55,400 --> 01:12:00,000
sets of ties, Five sets of ties,
but what is traditional is three

1243
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,800
sets of ties and and they're
physical ties, like tying a

1244
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:04,760
shoe.
You've got a string on each side

1245
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:06,840
and you tie it together in three
different spots.

1246
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:11,600
It's usually right below the
collar and then right above or

1247
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:13,680
below I.
It just depends on preference.

1248
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:16,920
The second set of ties will be a
kind of near your belly button

1249
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:24,240
and then the last is typically
right above the crotch and, and

1250
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:26,200
those ties have have symbolism,
right?

1251
01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:29,640
Well, the LDS church, the
mainstream LDS church garment

1252
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:34,120
doesn't have those anymore.
So as as fashion progressed,

1253
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:38,760
that was kind of removed.
The collar was taken off and for

1254
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:41,960
a time the garment was, the ties
were removed as well.

1255
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,960
And it was just a long piece
garment with buttons and then

1256
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:49,640
the symbols and then eventually
the buttons were removed and it

1257
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:55,840
became a two piece.
You had basically a long sleeve

1258
01:12:55,840 --> 01:13:01,320
shirt and you had almost like, I
don't want to call them tights,

1259
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:03,120
but they were just, it was just
like long underwear.

1260
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:06,840
In fact, very similar if you've
ever wore the thermal garments

1261
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,640
that you could get.
I wore them on my mission

1262
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:11,440
because I served in Chicago and
it was frigid.

1263
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:16,720
But that's kind of what they
became is after the changes

1264
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:19,240
started making the colors
removed, the ties are removed,

1265
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:22,520
they changed to buttons and then
eventually it just became two

1266
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:27,160
piece.
Then that was still a full body.

1267
01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:29,360
But eventually that changed as
well.

1268
01:13:30,440 --> 01:13:34,640
The standard garment then became
just almost like AT shirt and

1269
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,960
and like I said earlier, boxer
shorts essentially.

1270
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:43,320
And it was still, it was still
down to the kneecap or the

1271
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:48,600
kneecap down to the knee and
down to about mid biceps.

1272
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:50,880
But that's what it was for the
longest time.

1273
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:53,720
But in the last two years,
that's even changed.

1274
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:56,720
So now you can get garments that
are sleeveless.

1275
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:00,200
You can get garments that I
think they just released a new

1276
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:02,400
pattern that I heard some of my
family members talking about.

1277
01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,400
They're really excited about.
They now have garments that are

1278
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:08,200
slips both.
Yeah.

1279
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:11,280
So they have garments that are
an actual slip now that you can

1280
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:15,040
get from the LDS Church.
And they've released it in, in

1281
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:20,200
zones and in areas.
So I, I've had family members

1282
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:22,200
that have reached out to my
English because they were one of

1283
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:25,920
the first, some of my English
family members can get it

1284
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:29,040
because they've, they've
released those governments in,

1285
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:31,760
in, in zones.
And then eventually it will be

1286
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:34,240
widespread released.
But I've had family members that

1287
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:35,840
are so excited.
They're like, Hey, any chance

1288
01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:39,360
you can get these for us?
Because they're just excited for

1289
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:42,520
it.
And the question I have is when

1290
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:49,400
you change something that has
symbolic meaning, at what point

1291
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:55,680
do you lose that all together,
right?

1292
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:59,600
So if the caller represented
something at some point, if it

1293
01:14:59,880 --> 01:15:03,360
the caller represents the yoke
of Christ, you remove that

1294
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:08,520
caller.
Are you removing that yoke?

1295
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:12,160
Do you get what I'm saying?
If, if the strings represent

1296
01:15:12,160 --> 01:15:15,400
that and you remove the, or the
ties, whatever you want to call

1297
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:18,000
it, if, if the ties represent
something within the garment and

1298
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,720
you remove those ties, at what
point do you just say, I'll just

1299
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:24,880
remember that meaning in the
back of my head, even though

1300
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:28,480
it's not there?
Any, anytime you change

1301
01:15:28,480 --> 01:15:31,040
anything, you're changing the
symbolism.

1302
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:36,720
And, and, and I am not bashing
what, what the LDS church is

1303
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:40,200
doing because I, I, I loved the
endowment I received in the LDS

1304
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:42,320
Church.
I recognize that it was

1305
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:45,120
something felt like it was
missing and I now know why.

1306
01:15:45,920 --> 01:15:51,240
But I, I, I, I can't bash that
people are still making

1307
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:55,840
covenants and promises with God,
But there is a aspect of that

1308
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:58,520
that that is missing by changing
the pattern.

1309
01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,240
And, and the biggest thing to me
is like, why does the pattern

1310
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:03,280
matter?
That is a question that I wasn't

1311
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:05,400
sure if you were an ask or not,
and I'm sure you would have

1312
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:09,200
later, but I believe the pattern
absolutely matters.

1313
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:13,160
I I believe the pattern
absolutely matters.

1314
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:17,240
And let me tell you why.
Why would heavenly Father, and

1315
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:20,560
this goes with even just Adam,
God plural marriage.

1316
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:23,320
Why would God reveal something
just to change it anyways?

1317
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:27,040
Why would God reveal a specific
style of pattern?

1318
01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:31,680
In fact, historically, there was
a there was a woman who was

1319
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:33,520
chosen to make the first set of
garments.

1320
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:38,920
And the way the story goes, she
remade them four or five times

1321
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:41,080
before Joseph Smith said that is
correct.

1322
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:43,560
That is what was revealed to me
from the heavens.

1323
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:46,080
Why?
If it didn't really matter what

1324
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:48,680
the garment look like, why would
Joseph Smith have to remake them

1325
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:50,280
over and over again until she
got it right?

1326
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:59,560
And, and, and that to me is the
most important thing is, yeah,

1327
01:16:59,640 --> 01:17:03,320
you may still be able to get
certain symbols on the pattern

1328
01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:07,600
that the LDS Church uses today,
but that's not what revealed.

1329
01:17:07,680 --> 01:17:09,920
That was not what was revealed
to Joseph Smith.

1330
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:13,560
That was not, we either believe
he's a prophet or he's not.

1331
01:17:13,880 --> 01:17:18,080
And, and why would why would God
reveal it and then just change

1332
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:20,400
it later to meet the fashions of
the world?

1333
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:28,680
You know, and, and it's when and
where you wear your garment is,

1334
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:30,920
is up for question.
You get some people that are a

1335
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:33,400
little more zealous about it.
You'll get people that will wear

1336
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:37,800
the garment literally in every
facet of their life unless

1337
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:39,160
they're showering.
And I've heard of people that

1338
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:40,920
have showered in their garments,
which is gross.

1339
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:47,760
So I like you.
It's such a personal thing.

1340
01:17:48,480 --> 01:17:52,280
What the garment means to each
individual is going to vary, but

1341
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:56,400
the symbolism shouldn't change.
The symbolism shouldn't.

1342
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:59,320
And by changing the pattern, you
are absolutely changing the

1343
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:06,520
symbolism you know and.
And, and on something like that,

1344
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:12,520
like you said, am I just going
to remember this look, that

1345
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:17,280
symbolism is only as good as
it's recognizable, right?

1346
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:24,400
And so if it, if it goes away
and there's nothing else to, for

1347
01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:28,040
lack of a better term, take its
place to remind you of that, you

1348
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:32,120
have to ask the question then
what did we lose?

1349
01:18:33,440 --> 01:18:37,080
What did we lose?
And, and I, I feel like that's,

1350
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:41,400
that's super important to, to
wrap our heads around.

1351
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:46,800
I'm not going to ask you to go
into the symbols themselves, but

1352
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:50,440
explain to me how the symbols
would be different on an LDS

1353
01:18:50,440 --> 01:18:53,040
garment versus a fundamentalist
garment.

1354
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:56,440
You you see where I'm going here
with that, how the marks are

1355
01:18:56,440 --> 01:18:58,200
made?
Yeah.

1356
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:04,560
So traditionally in the early
days of the church, the symbols

1357
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:08,160
were actually, how do I word
this cut out.

1358
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:13,680
They were actually cut out
during your endowment.

1359
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:17,520
In fact, there was one point
where they were cut out on you

1360
01:19:17,520 --> 01:19:21,160
while you were wearing the
garment when you were at a

1361
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:25,240
certain part of the the temple.
And, and that kind of changed a

1362
01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:28,520
little bit too, just because it
became really difficult to do

1363
01:19:28,520 --> 01:19:32,520
that.
But either way, they, the

1364
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:34,000
symbols were cut into the
garment.

1365
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:37,640
The LDS church, at one point
when I received my endowment in

1366
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:41,560
the LDS church, those symbols
were kind of just embroidered

1367
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:45,440
on.
And now they don't even do that

1368
01:19:45,440 --> 01:19:47,080
anymore.
They're stickers.

1369
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:51,800
They're, they're, they're like
iron on stickers, essentially

1370
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:54,880
those sacred symbols that have
meaning.

1371
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:58,120
And eventually those symbols
kind of just wear out and then

1372
01:19:58,120 --> 01:19:59,520
you have to replace them after a
year.

1373
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:02,480
I think they say you can only
get like so many uses out of

1374
01:20:02,480 --> 01:20:05,960
them before you have to get new
ones because those stickers just

1375
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:10,080
overtime get washed away.
And and that that's so alarming

1376
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:13,160
to me.
Like that just to me, just

1377
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:15,280
something in that just doesn't
sit right.

1378
01:20:15,280 --> 01:20:18,680
Like that just sounds as a as a
consumer way to.

1379
01:20:19,480 --> 01:20:23,680
To have people buy more, you
know, if eventually they,

1380
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:26,480
because garments, I remember my
garments lasted for years.

1381
01:20:26,480 --> 01:20:30,720
The ones that from the LDS
church, you know, eventually you

1382
01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:33,120
have to kind of get new ones
because they started not being

1383
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:34,360
white.
But.

1384
01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:37,880
They were gross, but they lasted
for a long time.

1385
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:39,440
And so the biggest thing is cut
out.

1386
01:20:39,480 --> 01:20:41,920
You asked me like, what is the
biggest differences in the

1387
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:46,840
symbols?
So they're cut out in what we do

1388
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:51,000
in fundamentalism, you have
actual symbols that are not only

1389
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:55,000
cut out but embroidered open.
So it's very clear what you're

1390
01:20:55,000 --> 01:20:57,240
looking at.
You look in the mirror and you

1391
01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:02,560
see those symbols clear as day.
And because they they are,

1392
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,480
they're cut open and embroidered
around it kind of thinking like

1393
01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:17,200
a buttonhole stitch around that.
And to me, that just, it's more

1394
01:21:17,200 --> 01:21:20,680
obvious than what is very subtly
sewn into the LDS church.

1395
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:23,240
Before they did away with that
and change it to the symbols.

1396
01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:25,680
And now you can barely see the
symbols because the stickers are

1397
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:30,160
so white that up against the
fabric, you can't really even

1398
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:32,640
see them on there anymore.
Yeah.

1399
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:38,000
You know and.
You know, and, and this is one

1400
01:21:38,000 --> 01:21:45,400
place where I felt like it was,
it was abstract enough or, or

1401
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:48,920
non specific enough.
The, the, the marks, right?

1402
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:51,000
The, the, the difference in the
marks.

1403
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:56,640
And, and this is some place I
feel like we can maybe talk a

1404
01:21:56,640 --> 01:21:59,640
little bit about the symbolism,
not of the specific marks

1405
01:21:59,640 --> 01:22:03,280
themselves, but the fact that
they're cut in, I think has a

1406
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:07,880
lot of rich significance that we
have maybe forgotten about or

1407
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:11,600
haven't thought about, right.
You remember the story of of

1408
01:22:11,600 --> 01:22:14,920
when Abraham, I believe it's in
Genesis 15, when he makes a

1409
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:17,800
covenant with God, what he does
to make that covenant.

1410
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:24,440
You're talking about his son.
This is where where Abraham cuts

1411
01:22:24,440 --> 01:22:27,560
the heifers and essentially 2
right?

1412
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:32,480
And he walks through that and
it's symbolic of his covenant

1413
01:22:32,480 --> 01:22:35,960
with the Lord and the
seriousness with which he is

1414
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:40,080
taking that covenant.
And what's interesting is that

1415
01:22:40,080 --> 01:22:43,800
there's some verbiage in Hebrew
that's real interesting.

1416
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:48,040
Matthew, we say in English, we
are making covenants with God.

1417
01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:51,560
That's not how ancient Hebrew
would have.

1418
01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:53,920
An ancient Hebrew would have
spoken of it.

1419
01:22:54,480 --> 01:22:58,000
How they would have spoken of it
is I'm cutting a covenant with

1420
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:00,560
God.
And this Harkins back to this

1421
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,920
cutting that took place when
Abraham made his covenants.

1422
01:23:04,480 --> 01:23:09,160
And we are told a lot and it's
something I believe 100% is that

1423
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:12,400
we are following not only in
Adam and Eve's footsteps, but we

1424
01:23:12,400 --> 01:23:15,400
are taking upon us the the
promises of the Abrahamic

1425
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:18,080
covenant when we go through the
temple, right?

1426
01:23:18,440 --> 01:23:22,600
And so we get this idea of we're
cutting covenant with God.

1427
01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:24,880
It is that serious.
It is cut in.

1428
01:23:25,240 --> 01:23:28,960
The other thing is one of the
things that was promised was, is

1429
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:34,680
that the Lord was going to put
into us, take away our heart of

1430
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:39,320
stone and put into US heart of
flesh that had been written

1431
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:44,320
upon, had been marked, right?
And so there's all these

1432
01:23:44,320 --> 01:23:49,080
symbolisms, right, just in the
cutting of the marks versus the

1433
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:54,360
screen print, like you were
saying that that reorients us

1434
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:56,400
back to where we're supposed to
go.

1435
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:02,240
And, and if we lose that, we
kind of lose our point of

1436
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:04,200
origin.
So I'm going to nerd out here

1437
01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:07,640
for just a second.
I'm, I'm a land surveyor by

1438
01:24:07,640 --> 01:24:09,520
profession.
That's what I do to, to make my

1439
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:12,560
living.
And there's a principle in

1440
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:15,280
surveying called latitudes and
departures, right?

1441
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:20,600
And it's this idea that you're,
you're, you're off just a little

1442
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:24,240
bit, right?
And being off that little bit at

1443
01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:26,040
first isn't such a bad, bad
thing.

1444
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:28,920
So let's say this is your
baseline here.

1445
01:24:29,280 --> 01:24:33,520
Can you see my arm and you start
out and and you go off of a

1446
01:24:33,560 --> 01:24:36,560
wrong bearing.
Well, down here you can go a few

1447
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:40,480
feet and you're only going to
see it just a tiny, tiny bit of

1448
01:24:40,480 --> 01:24:44,360
error.
But if you go out 100 miles, if

1449
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:49,920
you go out 1000 miles, all the
sudden you have missed your,

1450
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:54,680
your, you've missed your, your
destination because you were off

1451
01:24:54,680 --> 01:24:59,400
just a little bit, right.
And I think you're off a smidge

1452
01:24:59,480 --> 01:25:02,200
from your origin and back at the
origin point.

1453
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:03,880
You're not going to see it,
right.

1454
01:25:03,880 --> 01:25:07,600
And this works with time too.
And, and I think we can see this

1455
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,800
in some of these changes to the,
to the garment.

1456
01:25:11,480 --> 01:25:14,920
You're going to, when you're
you're not going to notice it.

1457
01:25:15,080 --> 01:25:20,240
You just won't notice it, right
until there's something to show

1458
01:25:20,240 --> 01:25:21,680
you.
Oh, wow, look, look at that.

1459
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:25,720
Like, I don't know about you,
but I remember when, when I came

1460
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:31,000
out of the church and I was
endowed with a fundamentalist

1461
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:37,720
group, it was different, right?
And it was different because all

1462
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,720
of a sudden I'm like, holy cow,
there's that much symbolism to

1463
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:43,440
this underwear I've been wearing
for so long, right?

1464
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:50,560
And, and it, it completely
reoriented the way I viewed my

1465
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:53,240
covenants, right.
And that was a good thing

1466
01:25:53,240 --> 01:25:56,120
because it reoriented me back to
what I believed.

1467
01:25:56,400 --> 01:25:58,280
And this isn't a knock on LDS
people.

1468
01:25:58,280 --> 01:26:01,000
If if you're comfortable where
you're at and, and that's where

1469
01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:03,000
God wants you, by all means.
I'm not here to tell you

1470
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:05,440
otherwise.
But for me, it reoriented

1471
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:10,240
everything to me.
And I think that's, that's the

1472
01:26:10,240 --> 01:26:12,520
importance of these things,
especially things that the

1473
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:16,120
Lord's going to give us after a
very holy experience, like

1474
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:18,080
making covenants with him in his
house.

1475
01:26:19,160 --> 01:26:22,400
Yeah.
Well, and I think even even

1476
01:26:22,400 --> 01:26:25,160
shortening the garment and let's
say, let's say 'cause I had

1477
01:26:25,160 --> 01:26:27,880
someone actually asked me this,
well, what if I made a garment

1478
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:33,400
that was still short and had the
collar and had the ties, but

1479
01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:35,720
just went to my knees so I can
still wear my favorite outfits.

1480
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:39,240
And my, my thing is, is why
would you only want a certain

1481
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:42,360
part of your body protected if
the garment really is a

1482
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:46,240
protector both spiritually and
physically in many ways?

1483
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:54,720
Do you think that it's just
wearing it in general enough or

1484
01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:56,440
do you want it to cover your
full body?

1485
01:26:57,040 --> 01:27:00,160
You know, because the original
garment, like I said, hands in

1486
01:27:00,280 --> 01:27:04,800
hand, it went to the wrists and
ankles, you know, and it goes

1487
01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:07,680
right below my neckline.
In fact, some shirts I can't

1488
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:10,240
really wear because it pops up,
you know.

1489
01:27:10,240 --> 01:27:14,680
And so, yeah, I, I do think the
more you veer away from

1490
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:18,280
anything, you're going to
eventually be so far off the

1491
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:21,280
mark that you're missing the
reason why you did it to begin

1492
01:27:21,280 --> 01:27:22,920
with.
I think that's why I'm a

1493
01:27:22,920 --> 01:27:27,400
fundamentalist, because I
started to see kind of using

1494
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:32,400
your analogy, that as the LDS
Church made that initial change,

1495
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:34,280
you know, if we're going to call
that initial, and I'm sure they

1496
01:27:34,280 --> 01:27:36,560
made changes even before that.
But as they made that initial

1497
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:39,160
change, you know, plural
marriage, and they veered from

1498
01:27:39,160 --> 01:27:41,000
that.
Look where the church is now,

1499
01:27:41,880 --> 01:27:44,560
you know, and again, I love the
church and I, I hate even saying

1500
01:27:44,560 --> 01:27:46,160
that because it sounds like I'm
bashing.

1501
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:55,880
But you, you, you lose so much
by changing from what was

1502
01:27:55,880 --> 01:27:59,880
original, you know, and, and,
and I mean, the garment is one

1503
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:02,480
of the biggest, most obvious
changes because you can just

1504
01:28:02,480 --> 01:28:05,560
hold it up and compare the two
and say, wow, those don't even

1505
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:07,880
look like, you know, the
original pattern.

1506
01:28:07,880 --> 01:28:12,240
What is used now in the LDS
Church doesn't look, I mean, and

1507
01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:14,920
you can look it up.
You go on Google and you type in

1508
01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:20,040
evolution of the Mormon garment.
You will see a picture of what

1509
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:23,600
the original garment look like.
And, and it doesn't look like it

1510
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:28,760
anymore, you know, And so it's,
it's, it's, it's, it's huge to

1511
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:35,200
me.
It's huge to me because I, I, I

1512
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:42,960
want, I want to be able to wear
what was revealed that coincides

1513
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:46,560
with my covenants I'm making.
And you lose that by changing

1514
01:28:46,560 --> 01:28:49,760
what you're changing.
And, and God is no respecter of

1515
01:28:49,760 --> 01:28:52,280
persons.
Why would God change something

1516
01:28:52,280 --> 01:28:53,680
just because fashion is
changing?

1517
01:28:54,360 --> 01:28:56,320
If it was revealed a certain
way?

1518
01:28:56,720 --> 01:29:02,680
Like do I think that if, let's
say in, in pioneer times, let's

1519
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,960
say people did wear shirts and,
and shorts.

1520
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:08,440
What if that was the standard of
excellence for fashion?

1521
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:11,920
Do I think the garment would
look like it did back then?

1522
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:17,120
Absolutely, Absolutely.
Do I think that God would have

1523
01:29:17,120 --> 01:29:19,480
changed it because the standard
of excellence was a shirt and

1524
01:29:19,480 --> 01:29:21,600
shorts?
No, of course he wouldn't have.

1525
01:29:22,320 --> 01:29:26,280
If, if, if he revealed it a
certain way, he would have, God

1526
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:29,880
could care less what people were
wearing at the time, you know,

1527
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:37,680
and, and, and I think that that
says something now, like if you

1528
01:29:37,680 --> 01:29:40,280
really stop and think about it,
the garment changed because

1529
01:29:40,280 --> 01:29:45,080
clothing was changing.
And if God's laws are eternal,

1530
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:48,840
if they are, if they are
forever, why are they going to

1531
01:29:48,840 --> 01:29:51,520
change just because people are
becoming more of accepting of a

1532
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:58,440
certain way of appearing to the
outside world, you know, so?

1533
01:29:58,440 --> 01:30:05,680
You know, I, I, I can agree with
you more and, and look the here,

1534
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:07,600
here's the part.
Here's where the rubber kind of

1535
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:11,240
meets the road for me here.
You remember what the Lord said

1536
01:30:11,240 --> 01:30:13,800
his people were going to be.
They were going to be a peculiar

1537
01:30:13,800 --> 01:30:15,120
A.
Peculiar people.

1538
01:30:15,360 --> 01:30:20,480
I was just about to bring that.
Up and so if, if, if all we're

1539
01:30:20,480 --> 01:30:24,400
doing is keeping up with the
trends of the world, are we

1540
01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:29,880
really a peculiar people?
I mean, like there's some things

1541
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:36,640
here and and don't get me wrong,
I understand that that look,

1542
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:39,560
you're talking to a guy when I
first got up off my knees when I

1543
01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:42,400
first prayed about the Book of
Mormon and if the gospel was

1544
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:46,280
true and there was no, you know,
vision or anything like that, I

1545
01:30:46,280 --> 01:30:50,200
just got up knowing, right?
And so you're talking to a guy

1546
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:53,200
who wasn't looking for that
necessarily, right.

1547
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:57,880
And I remember I went, Oh, crap,
right, because now I'm going to

1548
01:30:57,880 --> 01:31:01,640
have to be a Mormon and Mormons
are weird, right?

1549
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:05,400
And so it's not like I was super
gung ho about the whole process,

1550
01:31:05,480 --> 01:31:09,200
right?
But nonetheless, I, I recognize

1551
01:31:09,200 --> 01:31:12,080
that, right?
And so I, I can say with a

1552
01:31:12,080 --> 01:31:15,360
surety, I became a Mormon not
because I thought it was going

1553
01:31:15,360 --> 01:31:18,320
to garner me friend as an
influence, right?

1554
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:22,360
Like that, that was not what I I
had to leave all of my friends

1555
01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:24,080
in my influence when I became
Mormon.

1556
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:30,480
Yeah, but nonetheless, if you
look at the charge of what we're

1557
01:31:30,480 --> 01:31:35,840
supposed to be as as Mormons as
as this version of of

1558
01:31:35,840 --> 01:31:41,120
restoration or excuse me, in in
Restorationism, we are supposed

1559
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:42,920
to be a bit peculiar.
And that's something that I

1560
01:31:42,920 --> 01:31:47,520
think, and again, I go back to
just own the stuff, right.

1561
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:50,560
Stop apologizing for it.
And that's what I see a lot

1562
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:54,280
with, with, with this debate
here, even with folks in the LDS

1563
01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:57,640
churches at they, they, they
almost approach it.

1564
01:31:57,640 --> 01:31:59,480
And, and I've seen it in
fundamentalism too.

1565
01:31:59,480 --> 01:32:03,240
I'm not, I'm not, I'm not
singling one group out over

1566
01:32:03,240 --> 01:32:05,120
another.
But there's sometimes you're

1567
01:32:05,600 --> 01:32:09,160
feels like you're almost
apologizing for being different.

1568
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:11,960
And I might stop, just stop,
right?

1569
01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:14,840
Just Just stop.
That's the way it is.

1570
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:20,120
We, we have to embrace this.
We have to own this.

1571
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:21,800
Do you know what I mean?
Is that making sense?

1572
01:32:21,800 --> 01:32:24,000
Oh, yeah, yeah.
No, absolutely.

1573
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:27,840
You know, it's interesting
because so we, we talked about

1574
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:30,520
different things that make a
fundamentalist A fundamentalist.

1575
01:32:30,560 --> 01:32:34,400
And yes, plural marriage was the
first thing I learned about

1576
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:35,760
that.
I was like, oh, the church

1577
01:32:35,760 --> 01:32:39,400
doesn't do that anymore.
But I, I was always able to put

1578
01:32:39,400 --> 01:32:42,280
that on the shelf for me that I
was just able to say, you know

1579
01:32:42,280 --> 01:32:45,760
what, if God wants me to live
plural marriage, he's gonna

1580
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:48,520
provide a way whether I'm in the
church or not.

1581
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:49,680
And I just put that on the
shelf.

1582
01:32:49,960 --> 01:32:52,720
And I was just like, you know, I
think I can do, I can find a way

1583
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:56,360
that I can, I don't know there,
but there was something about

1584
01:32:56,440 --> 01:32:58,840
temple work.
There's something about the

1585
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:00,520
garment.
There was something about the

1586
01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:03,520
changes that happened in the
temple that I was like, I can't

1587
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:07,080
put this on the shelf.
I, I've, I'm too far down in the

1588
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:10,160
Robert hole to realize that I
have to seek after.

1589
01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:14,440
I have to seek out for that.
And and you the peculiar people

1590
01:33:14,440 --> 01:33:20,840
thing, at what point do we try
so hard to fit into the world

1591
01:33:20,840 --> 01:33:25,200
that we become worldly?
At what point, like you said.

1592
01:33:25,360 --> 01:33:28,480
And so yes, it absolutely makes
sense because I think the more

1593
01:33:28,480 --> 01:33:32,240
you change things to fit into
the world, you are no longer

1594
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:35,640
standing as a beacon to people
of God's gospel.

1595
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:42,600
You are worldly, you know, and,
and that probably sounds like a

1596
01:33:42,600 --> 01:33:47,800
really harsh thing to say, but
yeah, it absolutely makes sense

1597
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:52,320
because I think God wants us to
stand out, you know, and that's

1598
01:33:52,320 --> 01:33:56,880
what I love about some of these
religions that have very

1599
01:33:56,880 --> 01:34:01,360
specific, like whether it's
Amish or Mennonite or FLDS,

1600
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:03,960
these religions that have very
specific clothing to what they

1601
01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:06,080
believe.
You look at that person, you

1602
01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:07,600
know what they believe
instantly.

1603
01:34:08,280 --> 01:34:11,720
And, and I think that there's
something to be said about that.

1604
01:34:11,720 --> 01:34:15,160
Yeah.
It shouldn't matter what like

1605
01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:18,080
it, it shouldn't.
How do I word this?

1606
01:34:18,320 --> 01:34:21,080
You shouldn't dress just to
prove a point to people.

1607
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:24,160
But if someone can look at you
and know what you believe

1608
01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:26,400
instantly, there's something
powerful about that.

1609
01:34:26,840 --> 01:34:29,840
And if you're if you've changed
your appearance to meet the

1610
01:34:29,840 --> 01:34:34,840
world that says what your focus
is on you're, you're more.

1611
01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:37,800
Yeah.
You're you're more focused on

1612
01:34:38,720 --> 01:34:41,760
leaning to what the world says
is acceptable than what God is

1613
01:34:41,760 --> 01:34:44,720
acceptable.
You'd rather be seen as like

1614
01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:50,760
everyone else than peculiar, you
know, and and peculiar's

1615
01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:58,600
whatever the word is.
I can't I can't synonymous to to

1616
01:34:58,600 --> 01:35:03,160
being odd.
And it's OK to stand out.

1617
01:35:03,560 --> 01:35:07,840
It, it is OK to be odd if you're
doing it because that's what's

1618
01:35:07,840 --> 01:35:09,200
expected.
And, and, and odd doesn't

1619
01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:12,040
necessarily mean weird and
perverse.

1620
01:35:12,360 --> 01:35:15,080
It just means different from
what is the standard.

1621
01:35:15,640 --> 01:35:17,480
And, and I think you can do
that.

1622
01:35:17,480 --> 01:35:24,560
And I think it's OK to do that.
It's OK to be to be peculiar and

1623
01:35:24,560 --> 01:35:27,480
to, because of what you believe
in.

1624
01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:31,880
You know, I would rather stand
shoulder to shoulder to God and

1625
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:36,680
shoulder and shoulder to the
world any day. 100% you know,

1626
01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:40,040
and, and you said it's OK, I
I'll take it a step further.

1627
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:42,200
I think we're commanded to be
that way, right?

1628
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:44,520
I think that's what discipleship
really is.

1629
01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:45,840
We were.
I I was.

1630
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:50,240
Just on a podcast last night,
I'm doing a series that's going

1631
01:35:50,240 --> 01:35:53,640
to be released probably starting
about the second week of January

1632
01:35:53,640 --> 01:35:56,040
on the armor of God out of
Ephesians, right?

1633
01:35:57,160 --> 01:36:03,840
And one, one of the things I was
looking at was that there

1634
01:36:03,920 --> 01:36:07,760
there's two ways that largely
discipleship to Christ gets

1635
01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:10,440
looked, looked at.
One is kind of a passive

1636
01:36:10,440 --> 01:36:12,240
discipleship, right?
You're going to keep your head

1637
01:36:12,240 --> 01:36:13,560
down.
You're going to work on self

1638
01:36:13,560 --> 01:36:15,800
betterment.
And that's great, right?

1639
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:18,360
Being become, becoming better is
good.

1640
01:36:18,920 --> 01:36:21,440
But I think the Lord wants
something a little bit deeper

1641
01:36:21,440 --> 01:36:25,400
and, and, and a little bit more.
And quite frankly, I think we

1642
01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:28,000
see this all throughout the
Savior's ministry, right?

1643
01:36:28,200 --> 01:36:30,920
What's the first thing, one of
the first things he does after

1644
01:36:30,920 --> 01:36:33,320
he makes disciples and apostles.
I want you to go out.

1645
01:36:33,320 --> 01:36:34,640
I want you to proclaim the
gospel.

1646
01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:37,400
Go, go preach it.
You're out a Great Commission,

1647
01:36:37,960 --> 01:36:43,200
right?
Likewise, you know, he says, you

1648
01:36:43,200 --> 01:36:46,400
know, why are you going to put
your light under a bushel,

1649
01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:48,800
right?
Why under a basket?

1650
01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:51,240
You're you're supposed to have a
light that shines.

1651
01:36:51,760 --> 01:36:54,160
And I tend to look at
discipleship.

1652
01:36:54,520 --> 01:36:59,680
Once you get fully converted,
you need to start being a change

1653
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:03,680
agent in society, right?
And so there should be something

1654
01:37:03,680 --> 01:37:08,040
that sets you apart from that
society, any society, right, to

1655
01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:11,480
be a change agent.
And that's just one way, right?

1656
01:37:11,480 --> 01:37:13,640
Is is people be like, you know,
they're they're what he's a

1657
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:16,600
little bit different, but Dang,
Matthew looks happy.

1658
01:37:16,600 --> 01:37:18,920
What's he doing in his life?
You know what's going on?

1659
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:23,560
And so there's there's different
that it's it's one more tool to

1660
01:37:23,560 --> 01:37:27,440
set us apart from the rest of
the world, right.

1661
01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:29,560
And not that the rest of the
world is bad.

1662
01:37:29,560 --> 01:37:32,160
That's not what Christ said.
You know, he didn't say go out

1663
01:37:32,160 --> 01:37:36,120
and beat people up that don't
follow my way exactly.

1664
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:38,240
He said, go out and testify,
right.

1665
01:37:38,240 --> 01:37:40,360
Be different.
Let your light shine.

1666
01:37:40,360 --> 01:37:44,080
And one of the ways that that's
done in Mormonism is through the

1667
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:47,520
apparel we wear.
And so back to your point, I

1668
01:37:47,520 --> 01:37:51,440
think, I think we lose a little
bit of that when when we don't

1669
01:37:51,520 --> 01:37:55,320
stand out as much, right?
Well, and I think the greatest

1670
01:37:55,320 --> 01:38:01,520
way to be a disciple is to learn
about who we are representing.

1671
01:38:02,160 --> 01:38:06,040
And the things that I have
learned in the endowment are

1672
01:38:06,040 --> 01:38:12,400
paramount to my understanding of
who God is, especially in the

1673
01:38:12,440 --> 01:38:17,520
unabridged, unedited endowment,
because you learn so much about

1674
01:38:17,520 --> 01:38:19,760
who God is when you receive your
endowment.

1675
01:38:20,320 --> 01:38:23,880
And there's been changes that
have made to the endowment

1676
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:27,480
through the years within the LDS
church that you kind of miss

1677
01:38:27,480 --> 01:38:31,280
that.
And, and for me, I have become a

1678
01:38:31,280 --> 01:38:35,000
greater disciple because of the
covenants that I have made with

1679
01:38:35,360 --> 01:38:37,080
God.
I've been able to stand out more

1680
01:38:37,480 --> 01:38:40,320
because of what I have learned
in the temple and, and what the

1681
01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:44,160
garment represents when I am
wearing it worthily, You know,

1682
01:38:44,160 --> 01:38:49,040
and I, the biggest thing that I,
I want people to understand is

1683
01:38:51,280 --> 01:38:53,880
no one is perfect.
And I think they're, especially

1684
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:57,760
within fundamentalism.
I've noticed there's such a, how

1685
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:01,200
do I word this?
Because in the early days of

1686
01:39:01,200 --> 01:39:03,760
fundamentalism, you know, you
had LDS people and they had the

1687
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:06,680
temples and fundamentalists.
And as they went further and

1688
01:39:06,680 --> 01:39:10,040
further and further away from
the LDS church and became really

1689
01:39:10,040 --> 01:39:15,400
separated completely, it kind of
became this taboo thing that

1690
01:39:15,400 --> 01:39:18,040
like, we don't have the
endowment right now.

1691
01:39:18,120 --> 01:39:21,040
And so it's this, it's this very
powerful thing that we don't

1692
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:24,240
quite understand.
And I think people need to

1693
01:39:24,240 --> 01:39:27,880
understand that it is not you
going through your endowment,

1694
01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:31,480
you receiving your garment, you
receiving the knowledge, you

1695
01:39:31,480 --> 01:39:33,400
receiving the endowment.
You don't have to be perfect to

1696
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:36,400
do so.
You have to strive to be a

1697
01:39:36,400 --> 01:39:38,960
better person because you have
to be prepared for the covenants

1698
01:39:38,960 --> 01:39:44,320
that you're making.
But I have been able to come

1699
01:39:44,320 --> 01:39:50,080
closer to God because I have
received my endowment.

1700
01:39:50,120 --> 01:39:55,040
And in doing so, it gives me a
greater strength to live up to

1701
01:39:55,040 --> 01:40:00,120
those things.
It was a tool in my pathway to

1702
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:01,880
perfection that I'm nowhere near
yet.

1703
01:40:01,880 --> 01:40:03,480
And I want to make that
abundantly clear.

1704
01:40:03,480 --> 01:40:04,640
Like let's get that on the
record.

1705
01:40:05,240 --> 01:40:10,720
Like I but it has helped me so
much.

1706
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:15,320
And and so if people are are one
day striving for their

1707
01:40:15,320 --> 01:40:17,480
endowment, if there's anything
that I can leave to you and that

1708
01:40:17,480 --> 01:40:21,320
is.
Don't look at it as, oh, I have

1709
01:40:21,320 --> 01:40:24,560
so much that I don't make
excuses as to why you're not

1710
01:40:24,560 --> 01:40:27,720
seeking after that, you know,
only you know if you're worthy

1711
01:40:27,720 --> 01:40:29,680
or not.
But it's you get what I'm saying

1712
01:40:30,160 --> 01:40:37,160
it it's not it's there's such
taboo around temple work that I

1713
01:40:37,160 --> 01:40:39,200
think we sometimes forget what
it's for.

1714
01:40:39,440 --> 01:40:42,920
And it is a tool, you know, Adam
and Eve, when they were given

1715
01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:48,200
their garment, it was after they
had transgressed a pretty big

1716
01:40:48,400 --> 01:40:51,240
commandment that was given them.
I look at Adam and Eve

1717
01:40:51,240 --> 01:40:52,600
sometimes.
I'm like, dude, you guys had one

1718
01:40:52,600 --> 01:41:00,440
job like you, you know, but we
exist because of that, you know,

1719
01:41:00,440 --> 01:41:02,800
we exist because of that
transgression.

1720
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:05,360
That doesn't mean, I mean, I'm
not saying by any means go

1721
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:15,360
transgress, but I'm just saying
like we, we as a people need to

1722
01:41:15,360 --> 01:41:19,320
look at it as not I have to be
perfect in order to receive my

1723
01:41:19,440 --> 01:41:25,360
endowment.
Change that that mindset to I

1724
01:41:25,360 --> 01:41:28,680
have things to work on and I
have a better chance of reaching

1725
01:41:28,680 --> 01:41:31,760
perfection with the tools that I
learned through the through

1726
01:41:31,760 --> 01:41:34,800
temple, through temple work and
the endowment you receive.

1727
01:41:34,840 --> 01:41:37,680
Does that make any sense at all?
Do I just make a fool of myself?

1728
01:41:38,280 --> 01:41:41,440
No, no, no.
That makes 100% sense.

1729
01:41:41,480 --> 01:41:48,280
And it's quite frankly something
I'm going to be very careful

1730
01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:51,040
what I say here because I, I
want to be careful not to

1731
01:41:51,040 --> 01:41:57,160
divulge who or what group.
But there was somebody who came

1732
01:41:57,160 --> 01:42:02,800
and talked to me about
potentially receiving their

1733
01:42:02,800 --> 01:42:08,360
endowment.
And I asked him, I said, well,

1734
01:42:08,800 --> 01:42:11,720
how familiar are you with, with
temple theology?

1735
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:19,840
And he said not very because it
was where I came from.

1736
01:42:19,840 --> 01:42:24,360
It was only reserved for what
were deemed the best of the best

1737
01:42:24,360 --> 01:42:27,240
people.
And that's unrighteous to be.

1738
01:42:27,240 --> 01:42:33,160
And that that broke my heart,
broke my heart.

1739
01:42:33,200 --> 01:42:39,480
And I'm going to tell you why,
because those ordinances aren't

1740
01:42:39,480 --> 01:42:44,480
there to to to weed out the
perfect people from the rest.

1741
01:42:45,600 --> 01:42:50,920
Those are there just like we had
that conversation before about

1742
01:42:51,200 --> 01:42:54,440
that state president who told me
because the meetinghouse smelt

1743
01:42:54,440 --> 01:42:58,440
like smoke and he said sounds
like people are repentant or

1744
01:42:58,440 --> 01:43:00,360
smells to me like people are
repenting.

1745
01:43:00,880 --> 01:43:05,920
Right.
Now, you should firmly probably

1746
01:43:05,920 --> 01:43:08,440
be beyond addiction by the time
you go to the temple for the

1747
01:43:08,440 --> 01:43:10,440
most Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, right.

1748
01:43:10,440 --> 01:43:12,000
I'm not.
I'm not saying that there

1749
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:14,560
shouldn't be a standard.
There absolutely should be a.

1750
01:43:14,560 --> 01:43:18,360
Standard 0100.
Percent perfection's not one of

1751
01:43:18,360 --> 01:43:22,040
them, right?
And this, the the temple

1752
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:25,760
endowment and the temple
experience will help you to

1753
01:43:25,760 --> 01:43:28,880
become perfected.
You'll never attain it in this

1754
01:43:28,880 --> 01:43:32,920
life, most likely, right?
If if I make blanket statements,

1755
01:43:32,920 --> 01:43:34,800
someone will prove me wrong and
get translated.

1756
01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:38,360
But nonetheless, most of us are
never going to get, are never

1757
01:43:38,360 --> 01:43:42,120
going to get to that point.
But what will that do that will

1758
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:47,320
help you to continue to strive
for that that standard that has

1759
01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:51,440
set for us.
So the temple experience is not

1760
01:43:51,440 --> 01:43:55,600
just for perfect people.
Indeed, it is for those of us

1761
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:59,000
who are seeking to become whole
as God is whole.

1762
01:43:59,360 --> 01:44:02,800
And so the that garment serves
as a reminder.

1763
01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:07,360
It is a gift that we get to
leave the temple with, right?

1764
01:44:07,640 --> 01:44:12,400
That no matter where you go, no
matter what you do, you got that

1765
01:44:12,400 --> 01:44:14,480
garment on.
You will remember those

1766
01:44:14,480 --> 01:44:17,320
covenants.
And that is a source of strength

1767
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:23,320
and spiritual solace that that
quite frankly, you just can't

1768
01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:26,240
get around and it becomes a
blessing to you.

1769
01:44:27,160 --> 01:44:31,280
I remember, I'll tell you what I
remember when I came out of the

1770
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:35,920
LDS Church and I put on the long
garment for the first time and I

1771
01:44:35,920 --> 01:44:38,400
was working in them, right?
I was, I was up in the

1772
01:44:38,400 --> 01:44:41,680
mountains.
I was doing a survey and I I'd

1773
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:46,320
been wearing them for all of
about 3 days and it's about 90°

1774
01:44:46,680 --> 01:44:50,120
and I'm sweating profusely and
I'm thinking, oh this better be

1775
01:44:50,120 --> 01:44:54,240
true, right?
What have I done?

1776
01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:59,120
Right.
But, but all joking aside, now I

1777
01:44:59,120 --> 01:45:01,360
can't imagine life without them,
right?

1778
01:45:02,040 --> 01:45:04,880
It is that much of, of what I
do.

1779
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:06,840
And it is such a constant
reminder.

1780
01:45:07,200 --> 01:45:10,880
And so often I've looked at
those marks as marks that that

1781
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:16,000
are figuratively cut into my
flesh and that's hard to escape.

1782
01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:19,240
And, and that's been some of the
blessings to me as I've I've

1783
01:45:19,240 --> 01:45:22,640
been able to wear it.
Well, and the symbolism of that,

1784
01:45:22,920 --> 01:45:25,040
you know what I mean?
Like that's why it's like for me

1785
01:45:25,040 --> 01:45:31,720
there the full body of that.
It's not just your, your vital

1786
01:45:31,720 --> 01:45:33,720
organs, right?
It's, it's your whole body.

1787
01:45:33,720 --> 01:45:38,080
It is you as a person.
Because if you think of the

1788
01:45:38,080 --> 01:45:39,840
garment, I was actually talking
to someone about this this

1789
01:45:39,840 --> 01:45:41,760
morning, If you think of the
garment as a physical

1790
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:45,920
representation of yourself, it
actually makes more sense.

1791
01:45:46,000 --> 01:45:49,040
Like you said, having it cut
into you, it actually makes more

1792
01:45:49,040 --> 01:45:52,880
sense that it fits your full
body because it is you.

1793
01:45:53,160 --> 01:45:56,280
You know, it is, It is a
physical representation of

1794
01:45:56,280 --> 01:45:58,720
yourself making covenants with
God.

1795
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:02,360
And the symbols on there, when
they are properly placed, that

1796
01:46:02,360 --> 01:46:05,440
was another thing the LDS church
has changed because they're

1797
01:46:05,440 --> 01:46:08,040
shorter.
You know, most garments the LDS

1798
01:46:08,040 --> 01:46:09,800
church wear don't go down to
your knee anymore.

1799
01:46:10,040 --> 01:46:12,960
There are certain symbols that
aren't even in the right place

1800
01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:14,760
from where they were intended to
be.

1801
01:46:15,400 --> 01:46:18,800
And because a lot of it is,
they're commercially made.

1802
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:21,000
And so you have
one-size-fits-all and they're

1803
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:24,280
just not gonna sit where they're
supposed to, where the garments

1804
01:46:24,280 --> 01:46:26,960
of fundamentalists make are
tailored to the individual.

1805
01:46:28,240 --> 01:46:31,480
And so you have them in the
proper placement of what they

1806
01:46:31,480 --> 01:46:35,280
represent.
And that should be tattooed on

1807
01:46:35,280 --> 01:46:38,440
your heart, that, that should be
tattooed on your soul.

1808
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:41,720
And, and how a better way to
remember that than to see it

1809
01:46:41,760 --> 01:46:44,720
every single day, every single
day.

1810
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:48,040
I mean, I, I, I work and
sometimes I have to change my

1811
01:46:48,040 --> 01:46:50,840
clothes at work.
And so because I, I work in

1812
01:46:50,840 --> 01:46:53,000
healthcare and sometimes you get
things on your clothes that you

1813
01:46:53,000 --> 01:46:56,360
don't want to wear around from
room to room, you know, so I

1814
01:46:56,360 --> 01:46:59,680
take off my scrubs, I look in
the mirror and I see my garments

1815
01:46:59,680 --> 01:47:03,240
and all of a sudden my thought
process changes and I'm reminded

1816
01:47:03,520 --> 01:47:06,880
just even if it's in that brief
moment, you know, because

1817
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:09,720
sometimes it does kind of just
become part of your everyday

1818
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:11,120
life.
And sometimes you forget that

1819
01:47:11,120 --> 01:47:13,360
you're even wearing them.
But then you look and you see

1820
01:47:13,360 --> 01:47:16,920
those symbols and you see the
collar and you see the ties and

1821
01:47:16,920 --> 01:47:22,520
you're reminded of that and that
strength it, it kind of charges

1822
01:47:22,520 --> 01:47:25,480
my batteries, you know, it's
just. 100.

1823
01:47:25,920 --> 01:47:33,720
Yeah. 100% and, and look in your
line of work with healthcare and

1824
01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:35,000
then I'm going to share a story
here.

1825
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:37,840
I, I, I, I didn't even think
about this, but it just hit me

1826
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:38,960
and then then I'll share a
story.

1827
01:47:38,960 --> 01:47:42,600
But in your line of work as
health, as a healthcare worker,

1828
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:46,440
you are caring for another
person right now.

1829
01:47:46,440 --> 01:47:49,280
Look, people are people across
the board, right?

1830
01:47:49,280 --> 01:47:52,320
Whether they're healthy, whether
they're sick, you know, all

1831
01:47:52,320 --> 01:47:56,240
different shades.
People are, you know, run the

1832
01:47:56,240 --> 01:47:58,040
gamut of being really great
people.

1833
01:47:58,040 --> 01:48:01,640
And some just think, right?
And I would imagine that that it

1834
01:48:01,640 --> 01:48:04,800
would be tough to constantly be
in a mode of being able to care

1835
01:48:04,800 --> 01:48:07,080
for somebody.
But those garments have got to

1836
01:48:07,080 --> 01:48:09,560
help when you see it, right?
Because it's a call back to

1837
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:11,440
discipleship.
I'll share.

1838
01:48:11,440 --> 01:48:14,240
I'll share my story here right
now with this.

1839
01:48:16,120 --> 01:48:22,200
I am for about the last 15
years, I've always been in some

1840
01:48:22,200 --> 01:48:26,080
sort of managerial role, right?
Which stinks because there used

1841
01:48:26,080 --> 01:48:28,400
to be a time I actually
surveyed, but now I just deal

1842
01:48:28,400 --> 01:48:32,680
with employees and emails and
paperwork and and stuff.

1843
01:48:33,160 --> 01:48:39,480
But to, to be an effective
leader, right?

1844
01:48:39,480 --> 01:48:41,240
Not just a manager, but a
leader.

1845
01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:45,040
The the people you lead have to
know that that you care about.

1846
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:48,760
Right.
And I remember I was dealing,

1847
01:48:48,760 --> 01:48:52,280
and this was probably 5-6 years
ago, different.

1848
01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:54,440
I was working at a completely
different place than what I'm

1849
01:48:54,440 --> 01:49:01,320
working at now.
But I remember this guy just

1850
01:49:01,320 --> 01:49:04,640
drove me crazy.
Matthew, I mean, just was never

1851
01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:09,840
on time, just right.
And he had pushed me to my

1852
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:12,920
limit, right?
Like I was choking on the words,

1853
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:17,160
you are so fired, right?
I mean, I was, I was really

1854
01:49:17,160 --> 01:49:21,040
struggling hard.
And I remember I got up and as I

1855
01:49:21,040 --> 01:49:24,240
got up, I was, I was, I was
working from home.

1856
01:49:24,440 --> 01:49:30,080
And as I got up, I, I had my, my
lunch on my desk when I got the

1857
01:49:30,080 --> 01:49:34,760
call and I got up and I wasn't
paying attention and I got like

1858
01:49:34,760 --> 01:49:37,160
ketchup and mustard all down the
front of my shirt.

1859
01:49:37,680 --> 01:49:40,160
And so now I'm even more pissed,
right?

1860
01:49:40,400 --> 01:49:42,880
I'm like, I'm going to go change
my shirt and then I'm calling

1861
01:49:42,880 --> 01:49:45,320
him just to fire him.
And then I might hire him again

1862
01:49:45,320 --> 01:49:47,480
just to fire him one more time,
right?

1863
01:49:47,480 --> 01:49:52,760
Like, I am angry and I get, I
get down and I go to change my

1864
01:49:52,760 --> 01:49:54,200
shirt and then I change my
shirt.

1865
01:49:54,200 --> 01:50:00,040
I look down at my garment and
I'm like, Dang it, right?

1866
01:50:00,360 --> 01:50:05,600
Because now, like, OK, dial in
here, you know, let's, let's

1867
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:08,800
figure out how bad this really
is and then let's act

1868
01:50:09,400 --> 01:50:13,120
accordingly, right?
And so I scaled way back.

1869
01:50:14,800 --> 01:50:17,520
But that's the power of having
something symbolic of the

1870
01:50:17,520 --> 01:50:23,600
covenants that you took outside
of the building that you took

1871
01:50:23,600 --> 01:50:26,120
those covenants in.
It's a constant reminder.

1872
01:50:27,080 --> 01:50:31,520
Be better even in the moment.
You don't want to be be better

1873
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:35,120
than your knee jerk reaction.
And and and the garment to me

1874
01:50:35,120 --> 01:50:38,320
has definitely helped in in that
in that scenario.

1875
01:50:39,440 --> 01:50:42,200
Yeah, that's amazing.
Well, and that's that's really

1876
01:50:42,200 --> 01:50:44,640
what it's for, you know what I
mean?

1877
01:50:44,640 --> 01:50:47,640
Like that, that's really what
it's for.

1878
01:50:47,640 --> 01:50:50,360
It's so that's that's
incredible.

1879
01:50:50,360 --> 01:50:54,720
That is a perfect example of
like, why does it matter what we

1880
01:50:54,720 --> 01:50:57,480
wear after?
Like can't we just receive our

1881
01:50:57,480 --> 01:50:58,920
endowment and just be done with
it?

1882
01:50:58,920 --> 01:51:01,960
And, and I think the garment is
a commandment because God wants

1883
01:51:01,960 --> 01:51:06,360
us to live up to what we are
promising, you know, and that

1884
01:51:06,360 --> 01:51:09,440
isn't just the obvious.
Like there's the things that we

1885
01:51:09,440 --> 01:51:14,440
are physically are, we are
physically coveting to fulfill

1886
01:51:14,440 --> 01:51:16,520
and to do while we are here on
this earth.

1887
01:51:17,120 --> 01:51:20,960
But I think it it goes even
deeper than that than just the

1888
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:26,880
stuff that we are and it's
living a life that is according

1889
01:51:27,320 --> 01:51:29,320
to the person we are making
covenants with.

1890
01:51:29,760 --> 01:51:32,560
What would Christ do?
What would Heavenly Father do?

1891
01:51:33,000 --> 01:51:37,120
You know what, what, what would
Elohim do in in this situation?

1892
01:51:38,800 --> 01:51:45,160
And I think for, for me is I can
do that more when I am

1893
01:51:45,160 --> 01:51:47,600
constantly reminded because it's
in my face.

1894
01:51:48,360 --> 01:51:51,120
You know, it's, it's every time
I change my clothing, it's the

1895
01:51:51,120 --> 01:51:54,360
first thing I see.
You know, there's been times.

1896
01:51:54,360 --> 01:51:57,520
So I, because I work in
healthcare, I'm on my feet for

1897
01:51:57,520 --> 01:52:00,560
12 hours.
I have, I have the long garment

1898
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:03,800
and then I have a long sleeve
shirt over that.

1899
01:52:04,080 --> 01:52:10,120
And then I have my scrub top.
So I, I am cooking like I, I, I

1900
01:52:10,120 --> 01:52:15,600
am golden brown 3 hours into my
shift like I, I am like.

1901
01:52:15,840 --> 01:52:18,440
If you were a Turkey, the little
button would pop up by.

1902
01:52:18,440 --> 01:52:22,200
Our it's the little Turkey is
now on fire.

1903
01:52:23,040 --> 01:52:25,920
You know, that button is on fire
like it is.

1904
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:32,080
I, I'm way past cook time, but
I, Oh my goodness, where was I?

1905
01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:35,040
Where was I going with this?
I work in healthcare where we're

1906
01:52:35,200 --> 01:52:40,600
OK.
So, but sometimes, you know,

1907
01:52:40,600 --> 01:52:42,960
when I'm just like even this
shirt, there's, I keep looking

1908
01:52:42,960 --> 01:52:45,720
over at the camera to make sure
that my ties don't stick out of

1909
01:52:45,720 --> 01:52:48,560
the 'cause I'm not wearing AT
shirt over it under this.

1910
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:51,760
It's just my garment and my, my
jeans and, and shirt.

1911
01:52:52,200 --> 01:52:54,960
But I can't tell you how many
times I've been in conversation

1912
01:52:54,960 --> 01:52:57,440
and I look down and I have one
of my and I, I know this has

1913
01:52:57,440 --> 01:53:00,840
probably happened to you where
your tie just kind of pops out

1914
01:53:01,520 --> 01:53:04,600
and, and sometimes it makes no
sense because I'm like, how did

1915
01:53:04,600 --> 01:53:06,120
that come undone when I'm just
sitting here?

1916
01:53:06,120 --> 01:53:09,160
I mean, I do move a lot.
I mean the definition of ADHD.

1917
01:53:09,680 --> 01:53:12,600
But as you probably have need to
say that now, I probably should

1918
01:53:12,600 --> 01:53:15,800
have said at the beginning of
the interview like our

1919
01:53:15,800 --> 01:53:18,000
conversation, I'm I'm riddled
with.

1920
01:53:18,000 --> 01:53:19,680
It I was like just talking to
another brother.

1921
01:53:19,800 --> 01:53:22,880
I get it.
But I can't tell you how many

1922
01:53:22,880 --> 01:53:25,240
times I've just been sitting
there and I look down and I see

1923
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:28,760
a tie and I'm just like, what do
I need to remember right now?

1924
01:53:29,200 --> 01:53:31,800
What is God trying?
And do I think God came down and

1925
01:53:31,800 --> 01:53:33,560
united my tie and stuck it
through my shirt?

1926
01:53:33,560 --> 01:53:37,160
Probably not.
But it's, there is just so many.

1927
01:53:37,320 --> 01:53:39,280
There's just, it's just a
representation.

1928
01:53:39,280 --> 01:53:42,240
There's so much symbolism there.
I could go in on this and it's

1929
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:45,640
hard because I am holding back.
You know, I think now that I've

1930
01:53:45,760 --> 01:53:50,080
crossed off my, my first podcast
I've ever done, I probably will

1931
01:53:50,080 --> 01:53:53,040
feel more comfortable to talk
about things in greater detail

1932
01:53:54,000 --> 01:53:57,680
next time.
But but they're so I don't know.

1933
01:53:57,680 --> 01:54:02,280
It's just to me, it, it does
matter what what we wear every

1934
01:54:02,280 --> 01:54:07,840
day matters because it's
especially when it comes to

1935
01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:11,520
temple work.
Does it matter if it's short and

1936
01:54:11,520 --> 01:54:13,480
long as long as it has the
symbols?

1937
01:54:15,400 --> 01:54:18,440
I think it does.
I think it does because I mean,

1938
01:54:18,440 --> 01:54:22,160
I, there's a quote from Joseph F
Smith that says the moment you

1939
01:54:22,160 --> 01:54:25,280
alter this garment, it is no
longer a garment.

1940
01:54:25,400 --> 01:54:28,680
And Joseph just clarify Joseph F
Smith, Joseph Fielding, like

1941
01:54:30,360 --> 01:54:33,320
the, the moment you change
something, you are altering what

1942
01:54:33,320 --> 01:54:39,120
it means.
You know, and, and do you really

1943
01:54:39,120 --> 01:54:42,000
want to alter the meaning of
what God is revealing to you?

1944
01:54:43,320 --> 01:54:44,680
Absolutely so.
Right.

1945
01:54:44,680 --> 01:54:49,760
No, I think that's a great look.
I'm a fan of old muscle cars.

1946
01:54:50,040 --> 01:54:52,760
I love American muscle cars.
Right.

1947
01:54:53,320 --> 01:54:59,200
Mustangs, Camaros, Chargers, you
name it, I love American muscle

1948
01:54:59,200 --> 01:55:00,320
cars.
Right.

1949
01:55:01,040 --> 01:55:05,520
Well, you know what?
There's only so much changing

1950
01:55:05,520 --> 01:55:08,880
you can do to an American muscle
car before it's no longer an

1951
01:55:08,880 --> 01:55:12,240
American muscle car.
If you take out the motor from a

1952
01:55:12,840 --> 01:55:16,640
69 Dodge Charger and then you
drop in a Prius engine, you no

1953
01:55:16,640 --> 01:55:20,800
longer have a Charger.
I don't care what the body and

1954
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:24,880
and so that I, I I think that
that there are some there is

1955
01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:27,520
some crossover there to that
principle with the garment for

1956
01:55:27,520 --> 01:55:32,280
sure.
Let me let me ask this and I got

1957
01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:35,160
one other thing that did I want
to hit you with and then we can

1958
01:55:35,160 --> 01:55:38,480
wrap this up.
First off, was there anything

1959
01:55:38,480 --> 01:55:40,040
that you wanted to cover
specifically?

1960
01:55:40,040 --> 01:55:44,120
We didn't, Matthew.
I'm trying to think because

1961
01:55:44,120 --> 01:55:46,440
there was a lot of nerves in
this interview which you help

1962
01:55:46,440 --> 01:55:49,640
those nerves subside, but I've
rambled a little bit so I'm just

1963
01:55:49,640 --> 01:55:53,800
trying to think is there
anything that I biggest thing is

1964
01:55:55,320 --> 01:55:59,080
don't let perfection culture
stop you from seeking further

1965
01:55:59,080 --> 01:56:04,040
light knowledge from God.
If you have desire to serve God,

1966
01:56:04,040 --> 01:56:05,600
you're called to the work.
And I don't think that's just

1967
01:56:05,600 --> 01:56:08,800
missionary work.
Temple work is a form of

1968
01:56:08,800 --> 01:56:11,840
missionary work, both for
yourself and for the dead,

1969
01:56:11,840 --> 01:56:14,760
right.
And so I, I covered that in

1970
01:56:14,760 --> 01:56:17,120
saying we all know what things
we need to work on.

1971
01:56:17,800 --> 01:56:19,360
I invite you to work on those
things.

1972
01:56:19,360 --> 01:56:22,400
I swear like a sailor, I'm
probably, as far as like what

1973
01:56:22,400 --> 01:56:24,080
comes out of my mouth, I'm
probably one of the worldliest

1974
01:56:24,080 --> 01:56:30,760
people you have ever met.
But because of the endowment,

1975
01:56:30,760 --> 01:56:35,440
because of the covenants that I
have made, I am given a strength

1976
01:56:36,160 --> 01:56:39,560
that is helping me overcome
that, even if it's just a little

1977
01:56:39,560 --> 01:56:40,880
bit.
I'm growing every day.

1978
01:56:41,760 --> 01:56:43,720
The biggest thing I want to
leave people with and that we

1979
01:56:43,720 --> 01:56:49,720
kind of did touch it is do not
let perfection culture stop you

1980
01:56:50,480 --> 01:56:52,880
from trying to seek.
Now, again, like you said, if

1981
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:56,800
you're riddled with addictions,
if you're riddled with, I mean,

1982
01:56:56,800 --> 01:56:59,320
I, I could list every addiction
that there possibly could be,

1983
01:56:59,320 --> 01:57:02,720
whether it be chastity issues or
whether it be addictions like

1984
01:57:03,160 --> 01:57:07,840
substance abuse or whatever it
be, or in your, in your private

1985
01:57:09,120 --> 01:57:12,040
relations with people.
Like if, if you know what you,

1986
01:57:12,080 --> 01:57:14,280
you need to overcome, work on
those.

1987
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:18,160
Absolutely.
I'm not, I'm not saying like go,

1988
01:57:18,880 --> 01:57:21,440
go to go get your temple
endowment tomorrow with crack

1989
01:57:21,440 --> 01:57:24,400
cocaine in hand.
Like that's not what I'm saying,

1990
01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:32,680
but but just remember that the
atonement is real and there is

1991
01:57:32,680 --> 01:57:40,480
hope and work on those things
today, but don't get to the

1992
01:57:40,480 --> 01:57:42,520
point where you beat yourself so
much that you're stopping.

1993
01:57:42,520 --> 01:57:45,320
So that's another we talked
about.

1994
01:57:45,880 --> 01:57:47,640
We talked about does the pattern
matter?

1995
01:57:48,520 --> 01:57:50,960
I until I'm dead in the face.
It does matter.

1996
01:57:53,240 --> 01:57:56,560
We didn't go so much as as in
the history of that.

1997
01:57:56,720 --> 01:58:00,840
And I think maybe one day we we
can maybe that's another 'cause

1998
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:02,600
I think this is such a long
topic.

1999
01:58:02,600 --> 01:58:05,200
We're talking this started in
the 1800s clear until day.

2000
01:58:05,400 --> 01:58:07,360
That's if you only go on the
Mormon garment.

2001
01:58:07,840 --> 01:58:10,400
And then we could have gone into
the history of it biblically as

2002
01:58:10,400 --> 01:58:14,680
well, because temple clothing is
found all over the Bible.

2003
01:58:16,440 --> 01:58:19,480
But I do think, I think that
could be a conversation for

2004
01:58:19,480 --> 01:58:21,640
another day.
If you ever if I haven't blown,

2005
01:58:21,640 --> 01:58:23,040
do you ever want to invite me
back?

2006
01:58:23,800 --> 01:58:26,800
Dude, dude, 100% this is this
has been great.

2007
01:58:26,800 --> 01:58:30,280
And, and look, I didn't want to
get that way into the weeds yet,

2008
01:58:30,480 --> 01:58:34,120
right?
Because I, I had gotten enough

2009
01:58:34,120 --> 01:58:39,840
emails about the kind of surface
changes that I wanted to address

2010
01:58:39,840 --> 01:58:44,000
those And I, I felt like you've
done a great job in doing that.

2011
01:58:44,600 --> 01:58:51,040
So anyway, what were you?
Saying, I think so if someone

2012
01:58:51,040 --> 01:58:54,080
asks you.
OK, so now I've learned that the

2013
01:58:54,080 --> 01:58:55,760
temple enjoyment has changes
have been made.

2014
01:58:55,920 --> 01:58:58,360
I've learned that the garment
has been changed.

2015
01:58:58,600 --> 01:59:02,160
Where do I go now?
What would your response be?

2016
01:59:03,800 --> 01:59:08,760
Mine yeah well, First off, and
and this is what I've honestly

2017
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:15,560
told people yes there there have
been changes and yes maybe you

2018
01:59:15,560 --> 01:59:19,320
feel like you've been that
things have been less than

2019
01:59:19,320 --> 01:59:23,880
transparent but the first thing
I'd say is breathe, right.

2020
01:59:23,880 --> 01:59:28,280
Because so often with, with,
with people who, who encounter

2021
01:59:28,280 --> 01:59:33,200
this, there's a sense of panic
And, and that sense of panic is,

2022
01:59:33,240 --> 01:59:38,240
is absolutely normal and
probably absolutely warranted.

2023
01:59:38,240 --> 01:59:41,720
Because look, Mormonism is
different than a lot of other

2024
01:59:41,720 --> 01:59:43,640
religions.
It's not just a Sunday thing,

2025
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:45,720
right?
We don't show up at, at church

2026
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:48,040
and throw a few bucks in the
collection plate and then go

2027
01:59:48,040 --> 01:59:53,080
home at 10:30 and, and we're
done for the week, right?

2028
01:59:53,080 --> 01:59:56,600
Mormonism is 24/7, 365.
This is what we do.

2029
01:59:57,040 --> 02:00:00,600
We, it's more than a religion.
It's a, it's a way of life.

2030
02:00:00,920 --> 02:00:03,480
It is, has its own culture and
its own norms.

2031
02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:07,560
And then to have that suddenly
people were raised with this

2032
02:00:07,560 --> 02:00:11,080
idea of it never changes.
And then to suddenly realize,

2033
02:00:11,200 --> 02:00:15,680
oh, crap, there's been changes
it, it's normal for that to

2034
02:00:15,680 --> 02:00:20,200
induce panic, right?
And so my, and yeah, my first,

2035
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:24,600
my first response is just
breathe.

2036
02:00:25,320 --> 02:00:29,720
Just sit with that for a minute.
I know it's uncomfortable, but

2037
02:00:29,720 --> 02:00:33,800
it's OK once you're past the
shock of it all.

2038
02:00:34,080 --> 02:00:35,400
And that's going to take some
time.

2039
02:00:36,440 --> 02:00:40,040
Once you're past the shock of
it, then know that there are

2040
02:00:40,040 --> 02:00:44,520
people that stand ready to help
you more so than have ever have

2041
02:00:44,520 --> 02:00:48,960
been before, right?
And these are people that are

2042
02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:51,520
non judgmental.
That'll be like, where's your

2043
02:00:51,520 --> 02:00:53,800
calling?
And then you're going to go back

2044
02:00:53,800 --> 02:00:57,960
and you're going to say, well,
gosh, you know, my calling's to

2045
02:00:57,960 --> 02:01:00,720
be a fundamentalist now or my
calling is to stay in the LDS

2046
02:01:00,720 --> 02:01:02,560
church.
Whatever it is, there are people

2047
02:01:02,560 --> 02:01:04,360
out here willing to help you do
that.

2048
02:01:04,800 --> 02:01:06,760
Don't throw the baby out with
the bathwater.

2049
02:01:07,560 --> 02:01:12,640
If you decide to pursue the the
fundamentalist course, there are

2050
02:01:12,640 --> 02:01:15,640
people willing to help you if
you just here's.

2051
02:01:15,760 --> 02:01:17,560
Here's another thing.
I don't think that gets enough

2052
02:01:17,560 --> 02:01:21,000
run with folks.
Perhaps your calling is in the

2053
02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:24,120
LDS church, but you're supposed
to be a retainer of knowledge.

2054
02:01:24,800 --> 02:01:29,120
I've got no problems passing
along information and knowledge

2055
02:01:29,120 --> 02:01:32,480
to people who want to do that
but understand.

2056
02:01:32,640 --> 02:01:34,800
Don't throw the baby out with
the bathwater.

2057
02:01:34,920 --> 02:01:37,600
Absolutely, absolutely.
And I don't think the endowment

2058
02:01:38,280 --> 02:01:41,080
go ahead, sorry.
Just because you found some some

2059
02:01:41,080 --> 02:01:46,160
historical inconsistencies does
not mean Mormonism isn't true.

2060
02:01:46,840 --> 02:01:51,040
Absolutely.
And, and understand that

2061
02:01:51,040 --> 02:01:55,480
Mormonism, there's more than
just the LDS church that is

2062
02:01:55,480 --> 02:01:57,720
administering Mormonism.
Yeah.

2063
02:01:57,960 --> 02:02:01,200
And there's a couple different
flavors to this, so to speak.

2064
02:02:01,240 --> 02:02:01,920
Right.
Yeah.

2065
02:02:02,400 --> 02:02:04,840
And, and there are people.
I am my phone.

2066
02:02:06,640 --> 02:02:09,160
My, this is where I always brag
about my wives.

2067
02:02:09,160 --> 02:02:12,720
My wives are stellar human
beings.

2068
02:02:12,800 --> 02:02:16,760
I mean, if I can be half the
person my wives are when I die,

2069
02:02:17,080 --> 02:02:22,400
I am going to be so happy
because bro, my phone blows up

2070
02:02:22,440 --> 02:02:26,480
in the middle of the night all
the time with people who are on

2071
02:02:26,480 --> 02:02:28,920
the on the verge and they never
complain.

2072
02:02:29,120 --> 02:02:30,880
This is just what you have to
do, Dave.

2073
02:02:30,880 --> 02:02:33,840
Go do it.
I, I will help you reach out to

2074
02:02:33,840 --> 02:02:35,600
me.
I will put you in contact with

2075
02:02:35,680 --> 02:02:39,400
other people that are willing to
help you that I have utter

2076
02:02:39,640 --> 02:02:44,280
confidence in that many of whom
have been on the podcast and I

2077
02:02:44,280 --> 02:02:46,240
will will make sure one way or
another.

2078
02:02:46,520 --> 02:02:50,440
But first, just breathe.
Second, don't throw the baby out

2079
02:02:50,440 --> 02:02:53,760
with the bathwater. 3rd, get
your own revelation.

2080
02:02:53,920 --> 02:02:56,840
Find out where it is The Lord
wants you, what your mission is,

2081
02:02:57,240 --> 02:03:00,760
and there are people here that
are willing to help you and know

2082
02:03:00,760 --> 02:03:05,960
that if it is the old temple
liturgy you want and the old

2083
02:03:05,960 --> 02:03:09,760
garment you want, there are
people that are more than

2084
02:03:09,760 --> 02:03:15,080
willing, that are happy and
loving and helpful to get you to

2085
02:03:15,080 --> 02:03:17,040
where you want to be.
That's what I would say.

2086
02:03:18,280 --> 02:03:23,480
Can I add something to that?
And I have to be very careful

2087
02:03:23,480 --> 02:03:26,160
because I don't want to push any
kind of agenda whatsoever.

2088
02:03:26,360 --> 02:03:29,840
But I think the one thing that I
want people to think about is

2089
02:03:30,760 --> 02:03:35,600
because there are now, there was
a time when the LDS church did

2090
02:03:35,640 --> 02:03:38,840
temple work and fundamentalist
kind of there, I think there was

2091
02:03:38,840 --> 02:03:41,960
this hope that eventually the
two would get married back

2092
02:03:41,960 --> 02:03:44,920
together.
And so there are people that

2093
02:03:46,720 --> 02:03:48,720
because there was that hope the
two would get married back

2094
02:03:48,720 --> 02:03:52,200
together.
I think like I said earlier, the

2095
02:03:52,200 --> 02:03:54,000
endowment has kind of been put
on a pedestal.

2096
02:03:55,360 --> 02:04:00,320
If someone is proclaiming that
they have the original endowment

2097
02:04:00,560 --> 02:04:04,360
and they are willing to give it
to you, if they are holding

2098
02:04:04,360 --> 02:04:09,680
something over your head and
saying you have to meet this ABC

2099
02:04:09,680 --> 02:04:12,880
and D, that should be a major
red flag because it is.

2100
02:04:13,360 --> 02:04:16,120
There shouldn't be someone that
is standing between that.

2101
02:04:16,120 --> 02:04:17,720
That doesn't mean there's going
to be someone that's going to

2102
02:04:17,720 --> 02:04:20,800
guide you and say, Hey, before
you make these covenants, I want

2103
02:04:20,800 --> 02:04:23,240
to make sure that you know what
you're getting yourself into.

2104
02:04:23,240 --> 02:04:27,600
And I think that they're,
because I, I told earlier, I

2105
02:04:27,680 --> 02:04:29,640
went into my endowment not
prepared.

2106
02:04:30,720 --> 02:04:34,520
And so I, if someone is willing
to help you prepare for that, I,

2107
02:04:34,520 --> 02:04:37,920
I think that's different than
than someone saying, now, if you

2108
02:04:37,920 --> 02:04:42,760
don't proclaim me to be your,
your leader, then you shouldn't

2109
02:04:42,760 --> 02:04:45,240
be making these covenants.
That's a red flag to me because

2110
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:47,320
it is so personal to you and
God.

2111
02:04:50,120 --> 02:04:53,720
And so that's the biggest thing
too, is make sure that you don't

2112
02:04:53,720 --> 02:04:55,440
have someone holding something
over your head.

2113
02:04:56,040 --> 02:04:59,200
There shouldn't be a what is the
word I'm looking for?

2114
02:05:01,920 --> 02:05:04,720
There shouldn't be a caveat to
the covenants.

2115
02:05:04,720 --> 02:05:06,640
Is that the right word?
There shouldn't be a caveat to

2116
02:05:06,640 --> 02:05:08,120
the covenants that you are
making.

2117
02:05:08,400 --> 02:05:15,120
They are so personal to you and
your Father in heaven and and if

2118
02:05:15,120 --> 02:05:18,920
someone is is if you have a
group that is is making you.

2119
02:05:23,400 --> 02:05:24,520
Do you get what I'm trying to
say?

2120
02:05:25,400 --> 02:05:30,240
No, no, look, just like this one
person that I talked to had said

2121
02:05:30,600 --> 02:05:33,520
it became one of those things
that only people who kiss the

2122
02:05:33,520 --> 02:05:41,040
ring got those got those
doctrines and, and look, this is

2123
02:05:41,040 --> 02:05:44,360
one of those points where I will
get real spicy.

2124
02:05:45,120 --> 02:05:51,280
And that is not, that is not
servant leadership, that is

2125
02:05:51,280 --> 02:05:55,760
priestcraft.
And that, that is a huge

2126
02:05:55,760 --> 02:05:58,400
difference.
There is different, there's a

2127
02:05:58,400 --> 02:06:02,680
difference between a Good
Shepherd, so to speak, who's

2128
02:06:02,680 --> 02:06:07,560
willing to say, look, bro, I, I
don't think you're quite ready

2129
02:06:07,560 --> 02:06:10,280
yet, but I'm glad you have that
desire.

2130
02:06:10,720 --> 02:06:13,240
So let's work together and let's
get you there.

2131
02:06:13,760 --> 02:06:16,920
They should never say no.
They should say not yet.

2132
02:06:17,120 --> 02:06:20,680
Let's let's get you up to where
you need to be because I do

2133
02:06:20,680 --> 02:06:24,680
believe there can be damage done
if you take these ordinances and

2134
02:06:24,680 --> 02:06:27,240
you're not ready and or you
don't know what you're walking

2135
02:06:27,240 --> 02:06:30,480
into, right?
And so it should never be no, it

2136
02:06:30,480 --> 02:06:32,400
should be not yet.
Let's work together.

2137
02:06:32,520 --> 02:06:34,800
I love you.
I want to see you succeed.

2138
02:06:35,040 --> 02:06:37,200
I want to see you get these
ordinances.

2139
02:06:38,680 --> 02:06:42,080
That is a Good Shepherd.
That is somebody who is trying

2140
02:06:42,080 --> 02:06:45,520
to not only preserve the
ordinances and the sanctity of

2141
02:06:45,520 --> 02:06:51,040
those ordinances, but are also
trying to to get as many people

2142
02:06:51,040 --> 02:06:55,080
as possible to take that
ordinance and make those

2143
02:06:55,080 --> 02:06:58,480
covenants and be successful.
That is a Good Shepherd.

2144
02:06:59,080 --> 02:07:02,400
If somebody says, well, bro, you
didn't kiss my ring.

2145
02:07:03,240 --> 02:07:05,880
You know, I heard you talking
bad about leadership.

2146
02:07:06,200 --> 02:07:08,920
I heard you, I heard you
question a little bit.

2147
02:07:09,280 --> 02:07:14,920
I heard that you had these ideas
and, and those are all within

2148
02:07:14,920 --> 02:07:19,920
round, you know, with, within
the, the, the, the, the range

2149
02:07:19,920 --> 02:07:24,000
of, of, of acceptability, right?
Like if someone's come to me and

2150
02:07:24,000 --> 02:07:26,800
be like, yeah, I, I want my
temple endowment, but I think

2151
02:07:26,800 --> 02:07:29,360
Joseph Smith is a fraud.
I think I'm going to put, push

2152
02:07:29,360 --> 02:07:31,920
the pause button for a minute
and be like, let's work that

2153
02:07:31,920 --> 02:07:33,040
out.
Well, that that's going to be

2154
02:07:33,040 --> 02:07:34,200
important later.
Right.

2155
02:07:34,360 --> 02:07:36,760
Well, and I'm not anti
leadership, I'm not anti

2156
02:07:36,760 --> 02:07:43,480
leadership by any means, but a a
true leader is unified with with

2157
02:07:43,480 --> 02:07:48,880
God and you cannot be unified
with a higher power and practice

2158
02:07:48,880 --> 02:07:51,000
priests craft.
I mean, the scriptures say Amen

2159
02:07:51,000 --> 02:07:56,520
to the priesthood of that man.
And and so authority that that

2160
02:07:56,520 --> 02:07:59,360
those things absolutely matter.
I mean they're paramount.

2161
02:08:00,480 --> 02:08:03,600
But just you got to ask
yourself, who are you letting

2162
02:08:03,600 --> 02:08:07,440
put their hands on your head in
helping you get to that point?

2163
02:08:07,440 --> 02:08:09,240
What is the caveat there?
You know, Yep.

2164
02:08:10,080 --> 02:08:11,840
Yep, absolutely.
No, I agree with you.

2165
02:08:12,520 --> 02:08:15,360
I agree with you.
Well, Matthew, how about this?

2166
02:08:15,360 --> 02:08:18,240
I feel like this was a great
introductory to it, right?

2167
02:08:18,240 --> 02:08:20,480
We didn't, we didn't go too far
off.

2168
02:08:20,840 --> 02:08:23,280
How would you feel about coming
back on in, I don't know, a

2169
02:08:23,280 --> 02:08:26,200
couple weeks or a month and then
go into like the biblical

2170
02:08:26,200 --> 02:08:30,280
tradition and then we can then
maybe we can do another one

2171
02:08:30,280 --> 02:08:32,680
after that where we we follow it
through the restoration.

2172
02:08:32,680 --> 02:08:35,880
Does that sound good to you?
I would love that, and that will

2173
02:08:35,880 --> 02:08:37,080
give me some.
I'm not a scholar.

2174
02:08:37,440 --> 02:08:39,040
We all have our gifts.
That's not mine.

2175
02:08:40,000 --> 02:08:42,080
So that would give me some time
to prepare for that.

2176
02:08:42,440 --> 02:08:46,960
I I would love that.
So yeah, let's let's.

2177
02:08:46,960 --> 02:08:51,600
Do that and look, I I say this
to everybody and IA 100% mean

2178
02:08:51,600 --> 02:08:53,240
it.
You've been on once you got

2179
02:08:53,240 --> 02:08:56,040
standing invitation to come back
on whenever you you just got to

2180
02:08:56,040 --> 02:08:58,720
give me a call.
So you encounter something cool

2181
02:08:59,280 --> 02:09:01,920
about or not about the garment.
Well, let's talk about it.

2182
02:09:01,920 --> 02:09:03,680
I'll I'll get you back on.
I don't have a problem with

2183
02:09:03,680 --> 02:09:06,440
that.
So if if you, but if you're

2184
02:09:06,440 --> 02:09:09,400
amenable to that dude, I'd love
to have you back on to go into

2185
02:09:09,400 --> 02:09:13,000
maybe a more historical trip
around the Garmin if you're down

2186
02:09:13,000 --> 02:09:15,480
for it.
Yeah, I would love that because

2187
02:09:15,480 --> 02:09:17,080
I think it's such a vast
conversation.

2188
02:09:17,280 --> 02:09:19,640
There's no way we could get this
all in a 2 hour conversation.

2189
02:09:19,680 --> 02:09:20,840
So I'd absolutely let's do it,
no.

2190
02:09:21,440 --> 02:09:23,440
Absolutely.
And actually we're working on 2

2191
02:09:23,440 --> 02:09:27,800
1/2 just in this.
So yeah, no, this, this has been

2192
02:09:27,800 --> 02:09:29,760
good.
Well, Matt, Matthew, I, I, I

2193
02:09:29,760 --> 02:09:32,240
appreciate you coming on.
I really, really do, man.

2194
02:09:33,160 --> 02:09:35,640
OK, Well, thank you.
Thank you.

2195
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:38,360
It was an honor.
I I'm passionate about this.

2196
02:09:38,840 --> 02:09:42,000
Any other questions before we
say name of Jesus Christ?

2197
02:09:42,000 --> 02:09:43,960
Amen.
You can edit that part.

2198
02:09:43,960 --> 02:09:45,040
None.
All right.

2199
02:09:45,040 --> 02:09:45,760
None.
Go for it.

2200
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:48,280
All right.
OK, awesome.

2201
02:09:48,280 --> 02:09:49,600
Hang out for just 5 minutes.
All right?

2202
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:51,480
OK.
All right.

2203
02:09:51,600 --> 02:09:52,480
Bye everybody.