The 5,000 Year Leap Discussion Group #5

0:00 OK, I think we might as well get started here. Let's see. Corey, could you give us an opening prayer, please? One second there, OK, our dear Father in heaven, we're grateful unto thee today just to come together and have a fun conversation about the Constitution, the wonderful principles that that really matter to us, that bring kind of some understanding of what's going on in our world and what our founders really wanted for us. To bring freedom and prosperous environment for all of us so that we could have all the things that we need and want and see everyone in our communities thrive and do well. And also religious freedom and just a better understanding of right and wrong.

0:57 Anyway, ask that blessing on the conversation and everyone here tonight. In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. Amen. Thanks, Corey. So let me share my screen here real quick. So we're, we're on the, this is week 5, I believe, of what we're doing and we're going to try to cover two things, two kind of principles this week.

1:43 One of them is on getting good leaders, collecting good leaders and, and what that takes. And the other is on religion. Now, both of these are pretty meaty subjects and I'm going to do my best, but I'm imagining there'll be a little bit we'll have to clean up next week on one of these topics here. I imagine we won't make it all the way through the religion one. Maybe we will, but if not, we'll just cover it next week. So it starts out and there's an interesting scripture that goes along with this and it's Proverbs 29 two. And it says when the righteous are an authority, the people rejoice.

2:27 But when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn. And I don't think there's a more apt description than people that then then the mourning of the people when we have bad leaders. And we're going to talk a little bit tonight through this one particular principle about what it means to to elect a good leader, how you can tell a good leader. And then both some of the consequences of, of having a bad leader and also what we can do. And in, in kind of upholding the values that the Prince that the founder set in, in getting that good leader and examining how it was they managed to maybe get around some of these things. Or at least looking down the road, figuring out how to avoid certain shipwrecks.

3:27 Starting out with with something from The Federalist Papers, and it's I entitled it in the absence of angels. If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. Real quick, who wants to take a stab on on what they think that means? I'll add something. I, I think it's kind of a compromise. It's kind of saying that government's not really adding an inherent value in and of itself, right?

4:12 It's, it's, it's, it's not necessary other than the flaws of human nature. It's, it's a, it's a preventative and A and a, what do you call a prophylactic effort? Maybe a remedial effort, but it's not inherently valuable in it in and of itself. Bureaucracy and all the these forms and systems, they're, they are valuable because we are fallen, because we live in a fallen world, but they're not valuable in and of themselves the way that, say, the gospel is. Sure, 100%. You know, and, and I also think here that, that the founders are realizing that human nature, I mean it, it can change, right? I, I do believe that there are some things we can point to in this age and say, gosh, you know, we, we relatively are a little bit safer than we have been in, in, in centuries past, But human nature by and large doesn't change. And because of that, we have two things that need to be controlled, right?

5:23 Or at least have limits put on. One is what man does to each other, and then two, what government can do for man. And I think the founders are kind of noting this problem here a little bit. Does anyone have anything they'd like to add here before we move on? I got a thought real quick that that a government that states that it is for the people, by the people and of the people is a tacit admission that everybody involved is flawed. And so a people that a flawed people that are in need of a government and a government that is made-up of people in need of checks and balances. 100% Thanks Tim and Justin.

6:05 Those were both excellent comments. Just want to also comment that, you know, there's, you know, some folks believe in anarchy, that no government is, is the ideal because hey, we can figure our our own, we can make choices for ourselves and our own family and friends better than anyone else, you know, in in another community or government. And, and while that on the surface appears to be true and it also there, there's some value in that thinking. Yet if you're going to associate with a lot of other people in a in a larger group and do a lot of trade and business with them not having clear boundaries and rules.

6:54 And also somebody is going to be responsible for making sure those rules are are kept is it's going to be a problem. And we we've seen it and there's just no situations where we have societies that don't have some leader and system put in place so that the trade and business and that people play nicely together to keep the rules. There's always been a rule keeper of some sort in that society for it to actually function and people to do trade, that kind of a thing. Sure. No good point.

7:36 Anybody else? All right, so the founders recognize that human, that human nature for what it was, and it's a mixture of good and evil. I wanted to kind of point like point this out a little bit. I wanted to give some examples. And so here here's an example of of leaders who were who were good and then one that was was kind of evil. And I'm just going to read a little bit of their BIOS and I want to see if you can just take a stab at who they were. All right, the first one guess who he leadership during World War Two served in office against the Axis powers, playing a crucial role in the Allied plans won the Nobel Nobel Peace Prize in literature for as he kind of showcased his skills as a writer and a historian. And for his six volume work on the history of the of World War Two, He turned coined the term the Iron Curtain. And in 1946 he described in 1946, he described the division between Western democracies and Eastern communist countries, highlighting his influence on post war geopolitics. He was elected five times to public office. Had a long career serving in various capacities and shaping policy over the decades.

9:08 Oratory skills His speeches His speeches inspired the British public during the war, rallying war, rallying them in times of crisis and solidifying his legacy as a powerful orator. Pretty I I'm guessing everyone's going to get it and someone want to take a stab on who that was? Sounds like Churchill to me. That is Churchill. You're right. All right. Now let's go to the evil guy. A Labour Party politician recently described him as a villain for having ordered troops to fire on striking workers in the Welsh town. I'm not even going to.

9:50 Tony Pandy in 1910 diverted an entire nation's crops to his own country's warehouse and caused a forced famine, resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths. Deaths. Then when aid came from the USA and other Western countries, he refused to accept that donation, ensuring that hundreds of thousands of people died from a forced starvation. Someone want to take a guess on who this is?

10:31 OK, that is Winston Churchill. Yeah. I wanted to use this example for one reason and one reason alone, because I believe in Churchill. We see kind of the gamut of who mankind can be. And if you ask people in India, he was absolutely a tyrant. If you talk to people in the West, he is one of the saving heroes of Western thought and democracy. But nonetheless, we see two sides to Winston Churchill here that absolutely illustrate the founders point that people are a mixed bag.

11:27 And certainly we all have problems like that, right? There's all things that we struggle with and whatnot, but it's important to try to alleviate or or prevent some of the man's more brutal characteristics coming to the forefront as as they govern. Does anyone have anything they'd like to add on that? And. Just that I think there's a lot, I mean, that can be said for a lot of great people that we consider great leaders in the history of the world. You know, there's, there's multiple sides to the story. You say that with Lincoln, there's certainly that way with somebody like Jackson.

12:18 Many US presidents also have storied histories, even when the even ones that did heroic things. Absolutely. And look, I'm not doing this to throw, throw Winston Churchill under the bus. I'm doing this as kind of an exercise to show that that mankind really is a mixed bag. And sometimes mankind can be a mixed, mixed bag individually, right? Struggling against their own natures. And so I don't want anyone to think here that I'm in favor of tearing down statues or anything like that. All right? Anybody else?

12:58 All right, so from the reading, does anybody care to take this question? What were Thomas Jefferson's views on aristocracy? OK, he said there were essentially 2 aristocracies. The first one he he coined the term artificial aristocracies. And this would be the kind of aristocracy that they saw back in England, right?

13:45 Typically its traits are it's obtained by birth or obtained by wealth. It's given by existing Lords or kings. Often times it was given in exchange for favor or loyalty to a king or a party. And so this would be something where where you would be part of the aristocracy simply because you happen to hit the genetic lottery and were born into the right family with the right last name. And there wasn't a lot of upward mobility in in in England or any of those other places that had a monarchy or was ruled by a tyrant of any sort, whether that was 1 tyrant or many. Usually that aristocracy is sent set and you are not going to be able to make headway up up the chain. The next kind of aristocracy that Jefferson talks about is the natural aristocracy or or another term he used for is a freeman freeman aristocracy.

14:53 And this aristocracy is going to be obtained by virtue and by merit. It's not passed on by family. It's not passed on for political favors. And in America, this, this aristocracy was left to the individual to rise and fall on themselves. And it was never meant to be passed down. And so as, as we break down what Jefferson's talking about, about this natural or freeman aristocracy, it it's, it's a meritocracy that is based on your merits and your merits alone. And it, it, it kind of gets away from, quite frankly, some things we've seen in the past that I think are, are troublesome, right?

15:42 We have things like Ted Kennedy serving in the Senate for what but the better part of 50 years. And then we have, you know, the the Clintons where, you know, he's in office. Then she becomes a senator. And there's even talk of, of their daughter running. We even see this a little bit with the Bush family as well. And so it's on both sides. But there has been kind of a new American aristocracy that I don't think resembles this natural aristocracy of this freeman aristocracy that Jefferson was talked about.

16:23 Now, I do want to say that just because you do have the same last name doesn't mean that you can't stay within this natural or freeman aristocracy, right? I do think obviously as we have children and we impart our morals and values to our children, it's very likely that many of them will follow in our footsteps. So it just because there's the same last name doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. Tim, I saw your hand go up. Yeah, and this might be something you get to, but just while you're on the topic, I wanted to add that, you know, I, I shouldn't even have to say that I'm not pro monarchy, but there is actually an argument to be made for the fact that a Prince is going to receive the education of the king and he's going to be shaped and molded into performing that role. And that kind of thing happens in America as well, that the younger generation is going to receive the education of their father.

17:19 And you can kind of see why it might go from one generation to the next. 100 percent, 100%. And thanks, Tim, for clarifying that too. That's the point I was kind of trying to make is that it doesn't always necessarily mean that it's, it's a corruption, right? It just means like any, like, it's like anything else, right? We see a lot of guys go through professional sports who later on their sons do and can be just as good as they are. That doesn't mean that that they were gifted a position. That just means that they inherited some of their father's abilities and whatnot. Does anyone have anything else they'd like to add to that before we move on here?

18:05 All right. Actually, I will. I'll hop in real quick. Yeah, Aristocracy is a loaded term that has a lot of baggage and kind of a lot of negative perception to it. And because for good reason, you know, this, this artificial aristocracy as, as Jefferson phrases it is, is, it's a, it's a holding on to power when you, when you have not proven worthy or you know, you, you, you shouldn't right, Right. But, but shouldn't don't we want to have the best possible leaders?

18:49 Don't we want to have the most competent, the most virtuous, like? And so this natural aristocracy, even though the term might kind of be a trigger and like have a negative connotation because of all of the abuses of it, there's nothing wrong with aristocracy. It is just simply the most competent and virtuous people running the show and taking care of stuff. Taking care of business like that is not anything to to have a problem with. I, I just wanted to point out that there's no better system as long as it's fallen mortal people, there's no better system than a natural aristocracy to have the greatest chance of Freedom and Justice and liberty and all of that.

19:37 And, and so like, as a parent, we shouldn't be encouraging our kids to, to not develop their talents to not, you know, improve themselves and, and be the best that they possibly can. And if they are objectively more qualified and, and competent than others, they really, they, they probably won't want it, but they are the ones that should be holding positions of leadership and trust and respect and, and, you know, and government power. 100% and, and I think the big take away here is that it needs to be obtained by merit, right? And, and we're going to dive into that a little later. And I think that's what you're saying, right, Taylor, is that it's and, and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it's based on the merit, right? Yeah.

20:26 What? What is it you have done that shows that you can be a competent leader and quite frankly, to stand a post to safeguard everybody else's rights and responsibilities? Yeah, and like you were saying, it can be. It's not like genetic, but no, if you have a good dad, then you have a better chance of being a good man. You know, if you, if you have a good mom, you have a better chance of being a good woman. And so these are, you could call them a proxy. And but what we can't, what we have to be careful of wealth, which is what, and fame and popularity, which is how politics often times devolves to that.

21:16 That can be a proxy for competence, but it isn't. It it doesn't, it doesn't. It's not always. Sometimes it could be a proxy for or in, in other words, it's a, it's a consequence of corruption and, you know, rigging the game in your favor, that sort of thing. So we have to be real careful of that. Absolutely great points, Taylor and Tim. Does anybody else have anything you'd like to add? OK, so from the reading, according to to Ben Franklin, these two vices would be something that people that people would be tempted by in public office. 1 is ambition and the other is avarice. So I'm going to throw throw this out. Isn't ambition a good thing?

22:15 Shouldn't we want people to be ambitious? Why would ambition be a negative thing that could tempt people who hold public office M. Yeah, it's funny, we actually kind of talked about this in priesthood meeting just yesterday. It ambition. Another way to phrase that in, in a regard that is often referred to negatively is the aspiring spirit that is sometimes talked about in in church circles. And it's the idea that if you're overly ambitious, perhaps your heart isn't in the right place. Perhaps you're only seeking the power or the fame or the prestige that comes with it and that you're not sufficiently humbled.

22:59 And in again, in a religious setting, it signifies that perhaps you haven't sacrificed your will on the altar of religion or on the altar of faith. That's that's usually the the bad things of ambition that people are talking about. 100% can't agree more with you. Does anyone else have anything they'd like to add to that? Yeah, it's interesting. If you study the American founding, they didn't ever. I mean, there was warnings all over the place talking about we don't want political parties. We don't want we don't want people campaigning like the the concept of of running a campaign and aspiring to an office.

23:40 It was kind of repulsive to a lot of these founders, right? And yet that's like just absolutely business, you know, today. And it's because I think the this, it's that it's like, like Tim was just saying that aspiring spirit, when you want the power, you probably shouldn't be trusted with it. And so because like, why do you want the power? You know, since you brought up a religious context, I'm reminded of Section 121 where it talks about we've learned by sad experiences the nature and disposition of almost all men. As soon as they get a little power or authorities, they suppose they immediately begin to exercise in righteous dominion or in other words, be crappy people. And so like, this is the the intent of Ben Franklin and, and these John Adams, these other people was to try to nip that in the bud.

24:39 And unfortunately, they weren't fully successful at it. But nevertheless they they attempted to to protect from this natural human tendency to basically go corrupt when you get. Power 100% you know, there there is this idea that you have to run a campaign now because America is so large. And look, I do, I do want to say this, I don't think running a campaign in and of itself is, is wrong, but I do think that the motives and the motivation behind it do need to be questioned from time to time.

25:27 And we're actually going to talk a little bit about that a little later here in this in this one section. But Taylor, you're, you're spot on and 100% right. Anybody else? All right, so then how would someone define avarice? What does it mean to be avarice? That would just be greedy. Greedy, exactly. Just hogging up that money, right? And these were the two things that Franklin and the founders were really worried about in terms of getting good, virtuous and moral leaders in place because they understood human nature. And they did take some, or at least Franklin tried really hard to take some steps to avert this. Unfortunately, it found its way in by other means that we'll go over later.

26:27 So those were the two things that that Franklin in particular was most worried about in that that go along with this principle. Does anyone have anything they want to add to that before I move on? OK, this is a quote from Ben Franklin that I wanted to read because I I feel like he really sums us up really well. Let me move this out of the way here, Sir. There are two passions which have a powerful influence on the affairs of men. They are ambition and avarice, the love of power and the love of money. Separately. Each of these has great force in prompting men to action, but when united in view of the same object, they have in many minds the most violent effects.

27:17 Placed before the eyes of such men, a post of honor that shall at the same time be a place of profit, and they will move heaven and earth to obtain it. The vast number of such places it is that renders the British Government so temptress the struggles for them are the true sources of all those factions which are perpetually dividing the nation, distracting its councils, hurrying sometimes into fruitful, fruitless and mischievous wars, and often compelling A submission to dishonorable terms of peace. And that comes out of the notes of the Constitutional Convention.

28:01 But Franklin was 100% correct on this. Does anyone have anything they would like to to say in regards to this? I just think that this is kind of a tricky one in our modern day and age, to be honest with the Arvis because, well, it's not about salaries anymore. You know, there are so many ways to monetize a political position. OK, Yep, I was going to get to. This some of which I was. Going to get to this later, but let's do this now. This is good. OK, explain, Explain how it can be monetized now, Justin?

28:45 Well, there's a lot of ways you can, we have a, you know, not to dunk on anybody in particular, right? But I mean, we've got presidents launching meme coins outside of that. There's a there's a gambling market called Pauly market that somebody made half $1,000,000 on the other day by predicting the Iran war attack. Now that's kind of a dumb thing to be gambling on in my opinion, because all it takes is 1 insider to go in there and, and, and collect. But nonetheless, you've got people gambling on that kind of thing.

29:26 You have insider information and stock trading, you've got kind of quid pro quo business deals. You know, you scratch my back and, and you set me up once I'm out of office. You know, I mean, there's just so many ways, there's so many ways of corruption that I don't think it's possible anymore to really keep track and, and know all of them. Be aware of all, even just campaign donations can be a form of of corruption in this regards. 100% I think the president's salary now and, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, if someone wants to Fact Check this real quick, I think it's still set at $250,000 a year.

30:12 Is does anyone have that by chance? Let me, I can look it up here too real quick. I should have had this beforehand. No, excuse me, it's $400,000 now monthly. Wow, they really went for it? Oh, an annual salary of 400 four, 100,000 a year paid monthly. OK, I see what they were saying. I misread that. Yeah, so. And, and look, that's a large sum of money. He's going to be, he's going to be a millionaire by the time he walks out of there. However, in the grand scheme of things, it's not that much.

30:57 There have been politicians that have went to Washington making like 100,000 a year and then they leave Washington darn near billionaires. And when you start looking at the insider trading, when you start looking at the, at, at the special interest groups and the lobbyists, it, it becomes pretty apparent where, where things are done. When I was living back East, I, I did something, I, I went to Philadelphia, I went to Independence Hall, I went to, you know, the square, I saw the Constitution Center. Then we went up and we saw you, I mean, went down and saw Yorktown. And then as we came back home, we went to DC and someone told me that it was on K St. in Washington, where all the lobbyists are.

31:51 And that was the busiest St. in all of Washington that day. I don't know if it's always that way, but it was that day and before where you could go to some of those sites that were closer to the revolution and the spirit would testify something important happened right here. I remember walking down K St. and it was the exact opposite feeling. It was a dark feeling. And there was no doubt that that's where the levers of power were really getting pulled. Taylor. Yeah. And so like there's a book that Ogden Kraut wrote called The Four Crafts and he talks about priestcraft, statecraft, lawyer craft and doctor craft. And you we could maybe think of even more, but those that's a good kind of summation.

32:38 And and so I just wanted to point out one quick little thing, a point of hypocrisy, because the the Book of Mormon condemns priestcraft and yet so often. And so like we've been talking about civil government for the most part in this discussion. This book is kind of more devoted to that. But but I think we can translate these principles in other areas as well and see the same fall in human nature, tendencies and problems because you look at so many of the the like the Mormonism restoration branches. I come from the church and it was it was just kind of bizarre to see very humble people to get called into the quorum of 12 apostles. And suddenly, you know, and it's not, I'm not saying that the church directly even does it, although it does some some to some degree from some documents that were leaked years ago. But like if you get called, you were an instant celebrity and then you put out a book and you get you have like a captive audience.

33:45 You're guaranteed to get a hundreds of thousands of sales. And so like these very people that came in to those positions quite humble all of a sudden are like slinging massive amounts of money around. And, and, and, you know, in fundamentalism, there's nothing quite that egregious, but there are nevertheless instances where people, what do they say? Power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely. And so you look at a guy like Warren Jeffs who, who got into the position of absolute power in that, in that situation, and he's an easy punching bag because all of his skeletons are out in the open now. But, you know, I think that that similar principle can, can also apply in every organ.

34:35 It it its potential to apply in every church organization. So it's something that we need to be constantly vigilant against. And you know, from not just ourselves, but also if we, if we, if we sustain our leaders, that doesn't mean that we say, we're saying we'll do whatever you tell us, boss. What it says is that if we see them falling into these types of traps of the adversary that we are promising to help them repent, you know, bring it to their attention. Maybe they just don't, they don't realize where they're headed. That's part of our sacred covenant to, to sustain our leaders is to help them see when they're falling into these same types of traps and, and, and things like that.

35:25 Absolutely. OK, so now I'm going to open this up for a little bit more discussion here. And I'm going to ask us to, to think back to that first discussion we had here where I, I threw out a bunch of quotes, some from from Mormon leaders, some from the early founders. And the one I'm going to, you know, preface this whole this, this, this part of the discussion with come from Washington right before they, they take the vote on the Constitution at the convention. And he says, gentlemen, these many months we've labored here together and we now are in a position to vote on this document.

36:14 And he says, let us raise a standard to which the wise and noble can repair. The event is now in God's hands. What Washington is saying there is that the Constitution isn't perfect and I don't think it was ever meant to be. I think it's darn good. I think it's worth preserving. But I do think that there is room for improvement. So let's you know, all you guys are wise and noble. Let's let me ask you this. How would you solve this problem if any of you had the opportunity? And I'm just looking for ideas because I think it's a a good thought exercise. How would you fix the problem at hand of avarice? The love of money getting in the way of good government. This is a little out there and it might not be a long term solution, but I think that maybe for a year or two Congress has to fund every law they pass personally. Oh, I like that.

37:28 I like that a lot. Anybody else? This is a little bit of a tangent, but if I think it directly speaks to what you, you know, this discussion you're bringing up, Alexis de Tocqueville was a French guy, a French author, and he, he wrote a book called Democracy in America. And de Tocqueville, he talks about how, yes, America has this thriving government, but it was a very small government in those days, right? It was an extremely limited in scope like the federal government was nothing like it is today.

38:09 But he talks about six other institutions that make America great and is is making this experiment in democracy work in America and he talks about them being family, church, academia, media, local government. I had Claire, I'm talking and so and, and so I just think that this the media, the, if the, if we had journalists that were actually doing journalism rather than just cheerleader ISM, I guess, for lack of a better word, that would actually expose when so and so gets caught being naughty. You know, 'cause the American people is as corrupt as we've become as a people.

39:02 Like we still don't we, we still have some scruples and we still would have some outrage, but often times the worst corruptions are covered up and, and, and it makes the media complicit in, in covering the sins of the of the elected officials anyway. So I just was going to just say I don't there's since we're talking about like wish list items, man, if there could, if the if the media could repent and do their job, I think that that would bring, you know, a lot of light into the actual, you know, problems that are very ubiquitous in our government today.

39:46 No, I couldn't agree with you more. And, and in a way, I think I think that correction might be happening. I think this last presidential election cycle showed the power of Independent Voices podcast, right? I'll just give the example. Joe Rogan made the offer to both Trump and his VP as well as Kamala and her VP to come to his studio to have a long form conversation where he would ask questions. Trump and Vance said Yep we're there, we'll do it. Gave like 3 hours, they went for it and that was it.

40:27 When it came time to Kamala Harris and her camp, they said, well we'll do it, but it's got to stick to an hour and you have to come to us. And it would have been an unlevel playing field. And I think and, and Rogan was very clear on that as he went to it because they kind of tried to blame him that they weren't on and it came out on what had happened. And I do think that that may have had some influence on shifting the election, perhaps. I, I can't say for certain, but I do wonder if that's not already starting to be corrected. Because you're right, Taylor, the, the media is a problem when, when we can't get get accurate news, we I see your hand up. What do you have there, brother?

41:24 You're still on mute, Sir. Can you hear me now, Dave? Yep. Gotcha. OK. I was just going to say I think that the term limits is a really good place to start. I think that the presidential term should be shortened to a couple of years. And you know, the rest of the term limits should definitely not be lifetime. They should be shortened as well. I think it takes quite a while to, to put your, your motives into a fruitful action, you know, So if you didn't, if you was in there a long time, you would have way more opportunity to mop up all you wanted to with greed.

42:14 But if you didn't have time to pull that off, it would be late. Way less enticing to try to run with a I'll motive. Gotcha. Anyone have anything in response? Yeah, I'll comment on that. One of my friends who's a marketing genius and knows a lot of things that I am not up to on, on just the latest and greatest. He's just fantastic. Anyway, he's commented politically for one of the first times on his. Over the last. Year on that topic and he said he said that with the Epstein file release and all of this corruption that we're seeing that almost everyone in politics kind of had some some skeletons in their closet that people are kind of using against them to get whatever they want and probably blackmail ish And you know we know that Clintons and his intern and that now it's come out apparently that he's gone to Epstein island a bunch of times whatever the real story is there.

43:29 But his his thesis is that we should have term limits because the longer people are there in service in public service, the more skeletons they'll have and the more likely that they'll have some but something that people can use against him and you know when it really comes to it. Who are the greatest people in politics today The the guy that comes to mind is Ron Paul. He's been in office for multiple years. He has always had virtuous moral character and with his insight into how the game has been playing played over decades of time.

44:13 He's one of the greatest forces in politics. I would not want to see this guy not continue in whatever he wanted to do in the example that he's been setting and he is a virtuous and sticks by principles. And he's not been subject to that. But yes, it does seem that the majority of people who are elected seem to get themselves their, their little hands dirty and something once they go to DC. And certainly, certainly that seems to be an an issue. Yet there's also another thing that people haven't really thought of with that term limits is having a, a constitutional convention to, to even implement it, which opens the door to the idea of our entire Constitution being revamped for just that, for just that reason. So there's there's sometimes bigger implications and bigger things at stake on, on some of these little tweaks that that we that sound really good.

45:20 Because actually I kind of lean towards what Alan is saying, you know, when he says, hey, look, you know, the longer these little corrupt people are are there in DC, the more dirt you got on them. And and we are seeing that really play out in our day. So yeah. Thanks guys. You know, one, one of the things I thought about was if I, I definitely think term limits can be a good idea. I do like the the idea of having people in there who know the problems, right? So kind of a continuity thing. Kind of my thought was as long as you're ascending, you can stay there, right.

46:02 So if you're a congressman and you become a senator, that's great. And then from a senator, if you become president, that's good too. And then after that, you should probably be done. But no, all all good stuff. I appreciate it. All right. Anything else anyone wants to add before we move on? Lee, did you have something else? I saw your hand was still up, bro. Yes. Not OK. We'll move on here. I just want to read this because this is kind of a a little bit of a prophecy that that Ben Franklin had. He said, Sir, though we may set out in the beginning with moderate salaries, we shall find that such will not be for long of long continuance reasons. We'll never be wanting for proposed augmentations, and there will always be a party for giving more to the rulers, that the rulers may be able in return to give more to them. Hence, as all history informs us, there has been in every state and Kingdom a constant kind of warfare between the governing and the governed, the one striving to obtain more for its support and the other to payless. And this has alone occasioned great convulsions, actual civil wars, ending either in dethroning of the Princess or ever, or enslaving of the people generally. Indeed, the ruling power carries

47:34 its point, and we see the revenues of Princess constantly increasing, and we see that they are never satisfied, but always in want of more. The more the people are discontented with the oppression of taxes, the greater need the Prince has of money to distribute among his partisans and pay the troops that are to suppress all resistance and enable him to plunder at pleasure. Here it's interesting because Franklin isn't necessarily prophesying, he's just looking at history, right? Especially that part about pay the troops that are to suppress all resistance. I think he's referencing Rome there with the Praetorian Guard. Towards the end of the Roman Empire, the Praetorian Guard was the important function.

48:26 If an emperor got in that they didn't like, they would just assassinate him and have another one installed. And so this ever increasing spending. I think we can look at this both from the presidential standpoint and the individual, as well as a ton of other things ranging from increasing payments to all of Congress to the military industrial complex. The whole thing is just littered with money and avarice. Excuse me, money and and wanton power. Does anyone else have anything they'd like to add here before we move on Good deal.

49:09 So this was his Ben Ben Franklin solution. He said Sir, though we may set out well, never mind I missed did that one here. It is there a scarce a king and 100. Who would not, if he could follow the example of Pharaoh, get first all the people's money, then all their lands, and then make them and their children servants forever? It will be said that we do not propose to establish kings. I know it, but there is a natural inclination in mankind to kingly government. It sometimes relieves them from the aristocratic domination.

49:52 They had rather have one tyrant than 500. It gives more of the appearance of equality among citizens, and that they like. I am apprehensive, therefore, perhaps too apprehensive, that the government of these states may in future times end in monarchy. But this catastrophe, I think, may be long delayed, if in our proposed system we do not sow the seeds of contention, faction, and tumult by making our posts of honor places of profit. If we do, I fear that through though we employ at first a number, and not a single person, the number will in time be set aside, and it will only nourish the the fetus of a king, as the honorable gentleman from Virginia very aptly expressed it.

50:46 And a king will the sooner be set over us. And as Justin pointed out, this isn't just about taxing right or or anything else. There is multiple ways now of getting rich while serving in in these posts. And it's it's a problem that I think does need to be contended with at some point. But it was something that the founders even saw coming. I don't think we should be surprised by this whatsoever. Does anyone have any comments for for this section here this reading from Franklin?

51:27 OK, Vanessa, I see your hand go up. Yeah, kind of to address the the first quote that you had from Ben Franklin talking about kind of leaders and needing more money and then and using that to so their needs are greater and then the they have to keep taxing. And it reminds me of kind of some of the criticisms of the Democratic Party where they're trying to bring in voters and they promised them all this money in return for their vote.

52:08 So it's kind of like this, the circular thing where if they can take all the tax money and reward people to keep them in power, then they keep rewarding and then they keep taking taxes. And so that's what I thought about when I first read that quote. And you're 100% correct. That is exactly the kind of cycle that Franklin was trying to warn about. And so somehow we have, oh, I heard somebody. Else that I would just add that swings every direction too, though that's not just a Democrat issue. We recently just had Donald Trump. He he, he's pushing for immunity to Bayer, the company that makes the glisophates for the for the crops and is ordering them to produce some for the government in a bid to protect them from any kind of legal liability.

53:00 And there's no explanation for that other than there's some sort of a quid pro quo going on there. Right, it looks like just a problem with just politicians in general, which is what he was warning about. Yeah, yeah, it's everybody that's the problem, right? That's why I'm like, I, I get where Benjamin Franklin's coming from on, on how you solve that, but it's I also don't because how do you stop that other than maybe like if you run for public office, your your bank accounts get frozen. You get put up, you get room and board at the White House for your presidency or for your term in Congress, and you can't. You can't make any money. In the meantime, your bank accounts are all frozen. Yeah, no, it it's, it's a tricky problem from for sure. And it it is something that at some point I think will have to be remedied.

53:49 I'm not so ignorant as to say or arrogant, I should say, as to say that I think I have the perfect solution for that. I would definitely want guys around me, you know, around way smarter than me to help parse that out. All right, so in moving on here, yeah, I want to ask this question, If money and power shouldn't be the motivation for public office, then what should the motivation be? Anybody. Noble and sincere interest in the welfare of the country. 100 percent, 100%.

54:35 I think it's love of country and countrymen. I'm going to read something here from Franklin, and this is given in the Constitutional Convention. He's referencing George Washington. But because Washington is there, he doesn't name him by name because he doesn't wish to embarrass him or make him uncomfortable, because that sort of heaping of praise Washington was not a fan of whatsoever. And he says, to bring the matter closer to home, have we not seen the greatest and most important of our offices, that of general of our armies, executed for eight years together, without the smallest of salary by a patriot whom I will not now offend by any other praise?

55:22 And this through fatigues and distresses in common with the other brave men, his military friends and companions, and the constant anxieties peculiar to his station. Washington not only never took a salary for what he did, it was a net negative to Washington because Washington at one point he calls for a chaplain to be in his army, right? He said we need a a chaplain here. And he petitions Congress and Congress doesn't do anything. This is the part where I like to say the more things change, the more they stay the same. So Washington pays out of pocket for his minister to follow his army around so that the the men had access to spiritual care. But Washington, as he always is, is the shining example of of how we should should look at at at public office. Taylor brought up kind of culture in the LDS Church, and there was a running joke that I remember for a lot of years in the in the LDS church, which was who's the guy that shouldn't be Bishop, the guy who wants it the most. And I think that that applies here. And I think one of the reasons

56:53 that we don't have more regulation on our public officials, it's because I honestly, I think to the founders, this idea of becoming a career politician just was so disgusting to them. There was this idea that you would, you would be called on by your electorate, right? People from your, your home area, like, you know what, we, we know who, who, who Justin Frankham is. He's a good guy. We're going to send him to Congress to to represent us. And then he would go, he would serve, and then he would come home and go back to his vocation. And the salary that he got was simply a way of trying to compensate him for his time away from his his his livelihood. Franklin also said the beautiful thing about the American system is that the people will never raise a hand against themselves. And when you look at the context of what he's talking about, it's this idea that if this truly is a government by the people and the citizenry is in charge, and there's a chance that all people might have an opportunity to serve, a good chunk of the population serve.

58:17 You're not going to do anything that's going to make your life difficult when you are no longer a congressman or a senator or a president or any of those other things. And it's only been since the advent of career politicians that we start seeing this become a bigger and bigger issue. Lee, I saw your hand go up there again. Brother, what you got? OK. When you were talking about motivation. Can you hear me, Dave? I can, Yep. OK, when you were talking about motivation there and what it should be, it made me think of, I don't remember if it was the prophet Samuel or if it was Jeremiah, but the the prophet had gone through a lot of persecution in his life for preaching the gospel or giving the word of God, you know, to the people. And and he he goes on this kind of rant about I curse the day I was born.

59:12 And, you know, he go, he laments on all this, all these things that happened to him. And he had determined in his mind that, you know, he was no longer going to say the word of God to the people, but he he makes the statement that it but it burned in his bones like a fire and he could not stay. And so he went, went and continued. And I think that it's that kind of motivation. It's like the truth, you know, burns within you and you just can't hold back. You have to go. You want to go do it because somebody needs to and the people need it, right? That should be the the the true motivation because it burns within you to do the right thing. Absolutely.

1:00:01 And, you know, I think it's important to note that Washington tries to refuse service many times over. Washington seems to be the shining example of this, to the point that when he's done with his two terms in office, the king over in England says if he look, everybody loves him. The citizenry loves him, the military loves him. And if he lead and, and this is the part where I'll directly quote, if he leaves office, he will be one of the greatest mortals that ever lived because he really is turning down all the power. And he did it.

1:00:43 And it was so ingrained in American Society that we didn't have a rule or a law about a president can only serve 2 terms clear up until FDR dies. And that's because FDRI think he ends up serving 4 terms as president. And it scares Congress because the body is barely cold and they're already in, off in, in, in Congress getting the law ready to be pushed forward because they never want to happen, have it happen again. Up until that point, if you even mentioned that you were going to run for a third term as president, people would look at you and say, do you really think you're better than George Washington?

1:01:30 His example was so crystal clear in this matter that that no one dared to to encroach upon that until about the time of FDR when we start seeing the rise in, in technocrats and those sorts of things in government. Does anyone else have anything else they'd like to add here before we move on? All right, good deal. It's not working. There we go. So what kind of quality should we look for in our elected officials? It does talk about this in the book at the beginning of this chapter. One of them is experienced, and I want to talk about this for just a minute.

1:02:19 What kind of experience would you want to see in an elect, in an, excuse me, in an elected leader? What kind of experience do you want to see on his resume, so to speak? I'll comment on that one. Oh, we'll go to Corey, then we'll go to Tim. I would say, you know, you look at the Book of Mormon for, you know, kind of a principle, a list of principles on those kind of things. It's always been someone who has revelation, someone who has character.

1:03:05 And I would say in our culture, someone who studies the and understands the principles of the Constitution and holds them dearly to their heart, if they don't really have a deep understanding of the principles of the Constitution, I like kind of how Ron Paul is in our day. I, I wouldn't have faith, faith in them in choosing rightly because there are so many topics and politics that are going to sound like, oh, that's a great idea. Your advisors are going to tell you this and they're going to tell you that. And next thing you know, you're going to raise taxes and get in another. War. That's and all these things online, all these conversations, boy, some of them sound great that these people come up with and even I'm like, wow, that sounds great, except for it's absolutely not constitutional and except for people have tried that before and it hasn't worked.

1:04:03 That kind of a thing that you know, so, so experience understanding of the constitution and someone who has, you know, a belief in God and Jesus enough to be familiar and and have kind of proven their themselves. And hey, they get revelation. Hey, they turn to God, Hey, they love our heavenly Father and they want to serve kind of like the King Benjamin type person, that kind of a character, someone who's not trying to raise taxes so that the people have any burden on them. Someone who would want to even do it for free. I would understand that some politicians ought to get paid if they don't have any funds and other resources that they could even, you know, pay themselves or or continue working in that office.

1:04:51 But some of these folks are already are millionaires and they need to have extra pay for it. You know, some of those ideas, it's, it's crazy to me like $400,000 a year to be president. It used to be 200 when I was a kid. So anyway, those are my thoughts. Sure, Tim, what do you got? Yeah, I think Corey listed some good qualities of good character and of a virtuous person. I was going to take a much more pragmatic approach and say that on a resume. You would typically see people taking stepping stones up to that office. And so you would see somebody involved in local or municipal politics, or maybe they're a sheriff and then a mayor, and then they get involved in state politics, so they become a governor and then they move from there to federal politics and up to president from that.

1:05:38 As opposed to some of the other things that we've discussed tonight, such as your monarchical type situations or aristocracle where they're born into it. You bet. Absolutely good stuff. All right, the next one is training. And I think we can see this not just from a technical standpoint, right? I do think that the kind of training they're talking about here probably has way more to do with with maybe their moral training, right? Are they a virtuous person? Which does time tie into the third one, which is kind of proven virtue, right, Boy, OK, I'm going to make an admission now.

1:06:29 And none of you can ever say this to the Department of Labor. I'm in trouble. I tend if if I have a guy that comes and applies for a job with me and he's about the age of 35 and he's never been married, I kind of raise an eyebrow a little bit and I start to wonder like, OK, is it just bad luck? And, and usually through the conversation that I have with him during an interview, I can usually get down to the bottom of why it is. And sometimes it's legit just hasn't found the right person, something like that. But I do wonder from time to time, like if you have bad relationships at home, you can bet more times than not that's going to seep through at work. And, and those kind of character flaws are going to be available to, to, to be on display and to make your life more difficult in a, in a work setting.

1:07:26 And I, I do think that we can look at a, a man's personal life. Obviously Paul makes that right in that you, you need to be the the husband of at least one wife and to have your household in order in order for you to be a Bishop. And that's just because you've proven that you can manage a household. So you can probably take the next step up for this, this other position. Does somebody else have anything they want to add before we move on there? OK, demonstrated wisdom. This one is interesting.

1:08:10 Lee, I saw your hand go up again. Hey, yeah, I was just going to say one other thing I would like to see in a in a leader is someone that has overcome a bunch of adversity or that's a good one, or, or dug themselves out of a, you know, like somebody out of it. Like Ben Carson, you know, that just didn't have a lot of opportunity, but he just clawed his way up to where he was, you know, a lot of fortitude. 100% no 100% And I think Lee in in some ways that ties into this demonstrated wisdom, right.

1:08:51 We live in what's been termed the information age, and for the most part I agree with that. I think any amount of information you want to get is pretty much available at your your fingertips. But information and wisdom are two completely different things. And so this demonstrated wisdom I would hope would go into even even if he's not in government, right? But he's been successful as a military man or he's been successful in business even. I don't think that's out of the realm of possibility that, you know, there's a demonstration here of his wisdom, both from a technical standpoint as well as how he relates to other people and how he's treated other people.

1:09:42 I think all these things can be great indicators of somebody who's ready to, to lead and and to to try to do a good job in that if his experience is there, if his training is there, if he's proven virtuous and he's demonstrated wisdom right now, I take him. I haven't seen that guy in a while, but hopefully that comes back around again. So this part here I I really wanted talk about this there. It doesn't really bring this up in the book a whole lot. But I do feel it's important and that is we have to be careful when politicians start to take on kind of a rock star kind of following right with with the kind of the the the over.

1:10:36 Oh, I don't know, adoration of a political leader. Tim, go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt you, Dave. I was just going to raise my hand so I could add on to the fact that I love that you have this slide in here. Because one problem that our entire country has is the celebration of, of rock stars, the celebration of fame. I think it's just one of the most poisonous things that we do. Absolutely no, you're you're good, Tim. And you're 100% correct, it is a problem. And often what we see come along with this is propaganda and propaganda is meant to make you feel a certain way.

1:11:20 And so I just dug up some some examples of propaganda that we see. And sorry if I'm about to slaughter a sacred cow here to anybody. The first one I hope I don't. The first one I hope we can all agree is pretty bad. But let's just take a look. So this is 1 from World War 2 for Hitler. And you notice here that he's he's kind of set up in this position of leading the charge, right? And the clouds are parting and and the Valkyrie, you're flying in and he's looking like he's ready to save the save the German people. Now, fortunately, we've never seen anything like that in America.

1:12:12 Oops. I guess we kind of did. You know, if we look at this picture and we really analyze this picture, it's a little spooky, right? Here you have a political leader who's looking from on high down upon a city. And the birds that are flying there are doves, right? Which is typically a symbol for divinity, especially within the Hebrew tradition, right? We're told in the New Testament that when Jesus is baptized, there's a voice from heaven, and then the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove. And this one was spooky.

1:12:55 Now, fortunately, we don't have to worry about any of that from the right side of the spit. My bad. I did it again. Again, there's this mingling of the divine with a political leader. And so I'm just going to ask this question. What is wrong with this? I want to hear from from someone else here what they find wrong with this, ranging from Hitler to Obama to Trump. What are the problems here with these depictions? I saw you come off mute a big A.

1:13:46 Big one is it's idolatry, literally cosmic humanist type make thinking. You know, believing that humans have transcended and become God gods. That's a big one. Anybody else? Yeah, you look at the whole Hitler thing. It's like, you know, I love, I love Germany is more what he's saying. He loves Deutschland. And one of the big sayings that they had in their their slogans was, you know, God got mittens, which is God's with us. And, you know, here we see Trump, you know, he is being, you know, supported by, I guess God or Jesus.

1:14:33 I can't see it but close enough here. But I've seen that, you know, the Halos on him and some other depictions online as well, that he is, you know, being led. And yeah, I think there's times when our prayers absolutely have an impact on our our leaders. And yet I think there's a a big danger in that of looking to them as because, you know, like Taylor saying, you know, we're giving them kind of idolatry that they are going to fix everything and then giving them a pass because we voted for their part of our party. If they're part of our party, then we give them a pass for almost anything they do in the other guys party.

1:15:15 They're all bad, even if they're doing the very same things. That's what I keep seeing over and over online. It's like that to me is insane. It's like if these guys are doing the very same things that the other party that your party has done, and then you're mad that the other party's person that is in office now is doing the very same thing. That's crazy. That's so hypocritical. It's so double standard. And, and unfortunately, we humans often cannot look in the mirror and see this double standard that we have, especially politically with these guys. And you know, I, I like a lot of things that each of these individuals have done.

1:16:02 They have done some good for the German people. Everybody was put to work in Germany for the first time. They were all struggling during the Treaty of Versailles. The, the communities were very depressed and struggling. And here you go, you know this, you know, Hitler goes in and gives them all work and now that they're all starting to do well, and if you have children, you know, you can pay off your house. You have 4 kids, your house is paid for. The German government will pay for your house. I mean, those are things that everyone who is a struggling poor person would feel like now they're making a contribution. And, you know, so that of course, on some of his powerful messages, just like Obama. Obama, great speaker, really kind of connected with his audience. One of my roommates was a teacher. He went out to DC and he was so welcoming and warm to him. And you know, and Trump, not that I have too many connections with him, but I've read articles about his children and his children inspire me and some of the things that he says. And yet each of these guys has done so many naughty things when it comes to politics as well in in some way that doesn't follow the constitution or the principles of creating prosperity for everyone.

1:17:15 And you know, those kind of things. Yet it does take away from our relationship with our Father in heaven if if these are the guys that we look to to fix everything. 100% Justin, I see your hand up. Yeah, I really like what Corey was saying there. And it kind of Harkins back to that first thing we you shared about Winston Churchill, right? There is good and bad in all of these. None of these people are Jesus. None of these people are Jesus. And they they can all do good things, but they're all inevitably going to do bad things as well. And what the problem here is what I see happening is all of these are depiction of what in Asia we call the mandate of heaven, but in Europe was the divine right of kings. And this idea is that monarchy or basically authoritarian government being justified on religious grounds. And now there is a true principle that we should pray for our leaders.

1:18:25 We should hope that Jesus has his arms on Trump's shoulders. We should hope that Obama's being guided by the Holy Spirit, but to promote it like this. This is propaganda and that and that and that's it suggests this idea of these are God's chosen rulers over us and and it leads to monarchy. Exactly what in the in this chapter that that Benjamin Franklin is, is railing so hard against having America become and we we do it to ourselves. Franklin was absolutely right.

1:19:07 There's a natural inclination. We'd rather have one guy in charge who has this mandate of heaven or has this divine right of king so we don't have to take that responsibility. It's a natural human inclination, but it's something that has to be resisted. Absolutely good stuff. The other thing I'm going to say Corey brought this up that that that one of the slogans for for, you know, the Third Reich and, and, and the Nazis was that God was with them. And I want to point out a few two different times in American history and just compare and contrast.

1:19:55 So if we look at the founders right when when they start talking about God and they start invoking God into what it is they're doing against England, they say let us have reliance on the protection of divine Providence. Now, if you start doing a dive on that phrase and you start looking for context around that phrase. It's very much about this idea that, OK, if we're going to do this, if we're going to go to war with the biggest, baddest guy on the block, we better make sure that, a, this is a just cause. And then two, we need to do everything we can to be on God's side, that we do everything we can to align with him. So divine the, the reliance on the protection of divine Providence is, is kind of equal to trying to be on God's side of things.

1:21:04 Now when we get to Andrew Jackson, it's no longer about reliance on the protection of divine Providence. It's manifest destiny. And if we start looking at what Manifest Destiny is, it takes what the founders were doing and it inverts it, it flips it upside down. So no longer is it about we're on God's side now. It's about God is on our side. God is with us. Now. When you start out a campaign, a military campaign, westward expansion, whatever. And look, I want to say this, I'm not dissing westward expansion. That had to happen.

1:21:48 That was a good thing. But I think we'd be remiss to say that there wasn't abuses under Jacksonian America during that westward expansion. And when you say God is on my side, well, now you have a blank check to commit all sorts of atrocities on different people because you can do no wrong because God is on your side. And to Justin's point, that is a direct correlation. Correlation back to the divine right of kings. And we should all be a little cognizant and careful as we brush up against propaganda because it's not going anywhere. It's here.

1:22:34 But we just need to be cognizant of it. And we need to be cognizant of how it makes us feel more than what it makes us think even, because that feeling will carry forward into how we tend to view that candidate. Does anyone else have anything they want to add to this part here? OK, so I would sum this all up by stop looking for a political savior. Stop looking for to to to worship a leader. It is idolatry modern day. And just because it's not a carved statue sitting on your shelf somewhere, it's still absolutely is a form of idolatry.

1:23:25 Ultimately, in America, it's our responsibility to make sure that we are doing everything within our power to 1st elect good moral leaders and then two, hold them accountable. Taylor mentioned that kind of earlier on in in this section here, that we need to hold their feet to the fire when they screw up. You can still rally behind a guy if he's made an honest mistake, if he's willing to correct that mistake. But if he's not willing to listen, It's incumbent upon us to exercise the rights that we have been granted to have a bloodless coup every two to four years and get rid of bad leadership and bring in new leadership. And if we can do that, we can still stem the tide. But we have to be extremely active in in those sorts of things.

1:24:25 All right, well, we're already at 8:30 and we didn't go nearly as far as I was hoping. And so next week we're going to pick up on the role of religion, and we'll go through that. And that's going to be another meaty 1. So this is going to put us a bit behind, but I know we'll make it up in some other spots and we'll get back on track because not all of these sections were as media as this one. So I think we'll end it right there for tonight. Does anybody have anything else they want to bring up here before we wrap this up for the evening?

1:25:08 All right, good enough. Tim, could you give us a closing prayer real quick? Yeah, you bet. Father in Heaven, we bow our heads before you at this time and humble gratitude at the opportunity at having met here this evening and discussed the foundation of this government. And we thank you for your spirit having been here with us. And we ask that we may absorb and incorporate some of the things that we've learned into our lives and into our families and communities. We ask that you'll continue to guide us and steer us in the direction that you would have us go. Father, we thank you for all of our many blessings and for all of the opportunities that you give us. And we say, and we ask these things humbly, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

1:25:56 Amen. Thanks, Tim for for the prayer and thanks everybody for participating. You, you, you make this thing go and I really do appreciate you and I'm looking forward to next week. Thank you, Dave. Have a good night everybody. See ya.