Episode #228: Navigating A Fallen World As A Daughter Of God W/Zoe & Makayla

0:14 So we Michaela you're both here. so, I gotta tell you, when I'll just tell the backstory here a little bit. I was getting ready to interview Braxton and Zoe happened to be in the room at the same time. And all the sudden I hear, wait, wait, I need to talk to him and then like Zoe jumped on and she's like, gives me this whole idea about this podcast that she wants to do with you Michaela. And I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm down. Let's do this. So we're here. We're ready to go? Zoe. How's things been going? Things have been going. Well, really.

0:55 Okay, what are you excited about? This podcast, I'm excited that it's coming to. Philly towards you. so first Tell us who you are. Hi, my name is Zoe Erickson. I am Joshua Erickson's daughter. And general nerd, I think would be the best way to describe me. Which is a compliment. There you go. Yeah. Okay. All right, fair enough, fair enough. So, like, were you raised fundamentalist know? So my family was LDS and I was eight years old, but they had felt called to enter into plural marriage.

1:40 When I was five or six and were everybody was actively. Yes, my father was the ward clerk. My mother was the word pianist. And edged into the principal lived, it secretly for a bit and then things sort of came to light and they got ice communicated. And then since then we have been independent fundamentalist, we have friends everywhere but aren't in a group ourselves. And life is good. That was good. Michaela. You were just on like the week before last so I mean I think we still have your backstory down. Yeah. So what was it?

2:22 Like growing up fundamentalist right like do you remember like the before times so to speak. I do very much. I'm it was, it was definitely very interesting and very lonely. at least for a bit, because The story of how my parents came to be. Polygamous has been told before on this podcast, so I don't need to go into it, but Suffice it to say that when we entered into it, would my parents and I guess also the family did not know a single other family who was practicing. um and so that's very lonely and it's very hard because our you know unique struggles and in a coming from a culture where that isn't think or it's very looked down on into no support system. There's gonna be, you know, just loneliness. I think now it's been much better. We have You know found ourselves a circle and also kind of come back into the good graces of.

3:29 So our old Circle, so like when like our extended family was told things were, you know, it was a lot of heartburn. My father was like, The Golden Child is going to be probably a bishop and he's just perfect little LDS Family and and then just perfect little Les family becomes, you know, dirty Plagueis, and then everybody's world, you get shot. So it took a couple years to kind of rebuild a lot of those relationships. Uh, from which I'm very grateful. Anyway. so now it's very funny because we I feel like we sit in the middle of kind of a web of like knowing everybody or knowing people who know everybody, hmm which is kind of Its kind of maybe a bit of a Redemption Arc going to be like completely disconnected to being very connected. Is that?

4:25 Absolutely. You know, you you hit on something that's interesting there and I'm sure Michaela can speak to this a little bit for LDS people coming into fundamentalism. It's a bit of a blow, right? And it's really like the way your family did it. My family, did it. You go in and you don't know anybody, right? And so it takes a hot minute and then with within Mormonism and I don't care where you're at and Mormonism, LDS fundamentals, whatever. If you're a Mormon, you're kind of a social creature even if you don't want to be. Right? Because it's very much you know activities it's more than just church right? Which is something that's always kind of hard to explain to to maybe some of our sectarian brothers and sisters is that this isn't just a Sunday thing.

5:10 We don't just show up on Sunday, through throw a few bucks in the collection plate and then slap high fives as we head out, right? This is an all week, all day every day, sort of a religion. And so when when the The Social Network that has been your support is suddenly gone right? You discover these things and you're like okay this isn't necessarily what I was taught but you you developed testimony of them and then you got to go that can be a rough transition. And I I know that that's one of those things that certainly your family's really was was what was really awesome was is that they were always willing to communicate and talk to other people and that was huge and being able to smooth those things over. So yeah they've they've they've been doing that work for a while.

5:55 But anyway, so yeah. So we I gotta put you on the hook here a little bit. You have a connection to this Missouri Temple out here, too, right? I mean, he did some work on it. I did, would you do my family and I did the curtains? And look for anybody who's not been inside, there are a lot of curtains like, there's many, many curtains. And, like, when, when I came out here and I found out you, you and your family were the ones stitching, those all together. I'm like those poor people have to have carpal tunnel now I'm seeing the amounts of drapes that were in there. I'm like wow but no and and they look great. That that's the reason I brought it up. Was you, you guys really went Above and Beyond on that. So Man that it's awesome.

6:47 So yeah kind of you're interesting because because you both had some experience outside the church and then Inside as well. So it's gonna say one thing about that I guess is yeah. Um those those curtains are a testimony of In my mind, the sword of larger plan that God has and also again sort of redemption because I would not do those. My family would not have been able to do those without the substantial help and support of my maternal. Grandparents. And they were probably the people who were most angry on my parents became Fundamentalist. He got the point where we are basically cut off for a couple of years. and, So if you had told me then that oh, just wait in the, you know.

7:44 Eight or ten years, they're going to be helping you make drapes for an apostate Temple. I would have looked at you like you had two heads. All right because they're both active Les and I just say one more thing just like the large planning. Of God because my grandparents did LDS temple drapes for a long time. And before we even knew of the existence of the group out in Missouri or any of it, I Apprentice with my grandmother doing Temple trips as a, you know, young teenager.

8:25 Because that's what she did. And it was a job and I could sell And then Along Comes This Temple and my father's, like we're gonna help but think, as we're in Utah, and there's not a lot you can do from three states away, you can't do the drywall or Plumbing or landscaping, or tile or concrete or any of it. From three states light, but you can do Drake's. and, It's been a bit of a longer story but something's had happened which had brought my my grandparents around I guess from viewing. Us as apostate. Horrible Wicked people to now, like the favorite grandchild, like favorite grandchildren again. It was a um, and My father committed to doing the drinks before we had talked to them.

9:17 He was like, we're gonna do, we're out in the fall of 21, I believe. And he was like, yes. We're going to like, he told me, we were going to see this Temple, and we're gonna do the drapes. And I was like, what, what do you mean? What do you mean, you're gonna do the traps? Because I had a princess. I wasnt, I never really finished. I don't really know what I was doing. I just done like grunt work. Basically. And he's like, yeah, we're gonna do the chips. And I was like, okay, okay, I don't, I don't know. He understand but I can't do that. Like I need help and the people who are going to help me, Think that this is the awful thing. This is never gonna work out. He was like, no, no, it'll be fine. I was like, I don't think it's gonna be fine. He's like, we're gonna do the tricks. Like, oh, that's so amazing.

10:03 And I was like, oh, and then we go back home and I'm like, there's no way that they're gonna cause they're gonna say yes. Because it wasn't even just oh, let me let us ask you a couple questions. We got material from them. My work room was my grandmother's worker and it's in their basement. So like literally up in their business. Doing you know, fundamentalist Temple curtains. but somehow, Only I say somehow, I know somehow. I know why they said oh yes. And I was like, what? And then you know things worked out and it was so sweet for me. To. Have my grandparents.

10:47 Have. come around, I guess enough to Be a part of that and and enable us too. You know, the entire thing hinged on them so 100%, you know? And and it's so interesting when you get into temples and temple building, There's a great line from an LDS movie that was made cash. I want to say back in 2011 about about Joseph Smith And it shows him and Brigham Young working on the 10 on the curtain Temple. and, Joseph Smith says something to the effect of people think we're building a temple but what people don't realize is that God is building us through building this Temple. and um I I remember shortly after we got to Missouri, we got here in February of 2024 and um, you know, help out in the temple where I can because it's time we were living in Springfield so I'd come out and help when and where I could And then um, we're getting closer to dedication, it's like August. And my wife Amber comes to me.

12:05 And she asked me a question. Now, before I tell you the question, I should say this. And and you too, can probably both, um, A test of this fact when you join a fundamentalist group or you become a fundamentalist from the LDS church, it's a lot like rolling, a grenade in your family, um to be allowed explosion. And then there's going to be fragments for, for a hot minute that? Yeah. Only thing that could possibly be worse than that. Is, if you're the only guy that's taking the blame for such things. Now, let me explain. My mother-in-law finds out Amber's mom that were were going fundamentalist and oh, she didn't like me before, but that got ratcheted to about 27, on a scale of one to 10. and so fast forward back to Amber and I are in Missouri with you know me Amber and Tanya and Amber comes to me in about July, And I'm working.

13:10 And Amber. Very rarely talks to me while I'm working, right? She's she's figured out that when I'm in that zone. I'm just, I'm locked in. And she comes in and she's like, I really need to talk to you. I'm like, okay, I was like, yeah, I mean, if you're coming in middle of the day, yeah, you got stuff going on. She works as well. And so she pulls up a chair and she goes, I want you invite my mom out to look at the temple. And I'm like, hmm. So you want me to leave for a couple of weeks? Why she's here? Like, where would you like me to go? And she's like, no, I'm being serious. I would really like her to come out and see. And I'm like, she's never gonna do that, right?

13:52 Like, let's just get this through right here. and um, I said, if you really feel inspired that this is the way we should go, then do it. You know, I'll put the I'll put the bill for the ticket and you know the plane tickets whatever we need. But if you really feel like this is what we should do, then do it. So she calls her mom and her mom said, yes. And I was like, okay, she'll back out last minute, right? Like the, what, what she's really agreed to will sink in and she'll be like, oh yeah I'm about to come down with a bad case of you know, can't see my son-in-law itis. and um, but she came, she came and I remember it was Tom sitting and shout out to him. He he was the one that gave the tour to my mother-in-law. Kind of headed it up and he was the perfect guy Forks, Tom. I mean that dude's just full of right, like? Yeah, if love would define stature that man would be 12 feet tall and so it was absolutely the, the perfect guy to do it.

14:57 And then we, we went home and the girls went up stairs, all three of them, Amber Tanya and Amber's mom. And I don't hear anything and I'm like, oh, so I go up stairs and I, I go up and they're like doing each other's nails and stuff, right? And I just I'm like, well, I could say something, but don't ruin the moment. Um, and so I just want back down stairs by couldn't stop. But thinking, you know, I really is kind of the blessing of temples, right? I think so often we look at temples and we think man this this is something that's going to be great for me to make covenants with God. And I can help out my family on the other side of the, the veil, but I don't think we give enough respect enough thought to that, even the very Act of building the Temple can can begin to heal family wounds. So it's great story.

15:49 I appreciate you sharing that Zoe. Yeah. So I mean it's a great blessing for me. I saw miracles And I know many people who saw much bigger ones. Right. In that thing, I'm sure. Yep. Know for sure. Well good enough. Well Okay. Zoe Mikayla. Where are we talking about today? Sure here. Feminine, I guess side of Mormonism. And how warm is a, should have a very rich. Feminine spiritual tradition and we don't It causes lots of problems because they're kind of lost it. It's Mormonism.

16:43 Has it, but we've lost it. Yeah. What you mean by by, by, by that, exactly lost its rich. Tradition of feminine femininity in the podcast. There are. Doctrines and they were practices in the early church. which have been forgotten about today or if they're implications have been forgotten and I'm seeing this a lot, personally, I've talked to a lot of people where A lot of women actually in particular where they're like, I don't really have a place in the hospital.

17:30 This idea of like the gospel is all misogynistic. The Bible only talks about men, why should I read the Bible? Because there's nothing for me to get from it. The idea of being a woman in the gospel. So boring because all I do is sit at home and listen to what my husband tells me to say and that's not what Mormonism teaches. It's not what God wants for his daughters because we do have an identity. We are not just A nameless faceless person existing in the background. absolutely, I think and I Oh, go ahead. What's that? I think on that. Um, I loved one of one of my pet peeves and also the things I love. is when people have issues with a religion, which can be solved if you actually know what you're talking about.

18:26 I am, I am not one to say that what we have is perfect. I think it's incredibly arrogant to think that because it's everything's being filtered through men. And men are very fallible. I think it's very good, but until they're what I'm saying is I think that there are issues that could be raised or questions people could have. I'm like, I don't really know. I don't know if it's a dressed but sometimes you have an issue that gets raised, it's like well, It's in the doctrine. There is an answer if you just actually knew your religion. Yeah. On your percent. I've said for a little while. that all the questions that the feminists are raising right now in church and in the LDS Church, Fundamentalism has the answer.

19:09 You may not like the source from where it came from, but it is the answer, right? I'll give you an example. Um, and then I have a quick pop quiz for both of you on this very thing. Yeah, and no study time. Nothing. We're just gonna test it. Um, A few, a few years back, there was a talk given in the LDS General Conference and the, I can't remember who it was. It did it but it was one of the Big 12, right? One of the big 15 up there. And they were talking about heavenly mother and they said, you know, we don't know her name. We don't know who she really was, but we know she exists and I couldn't help but think there for a second. Well, if you went back to the Adam God Doctrine, you know, a heck of a lot more than what you're saying, you know, right. I have so much beef with that talk because my ex-boyfriend used to use it to shut me down on talking about something mother.

20:06 So, okay, So, when you were talking about a rich history of feminine ability within the restoration, it jogged my memory on something I just found. Today, I'm gonna read this to you, but you guys need to tell me who said it. Okay. No cheating. I want no phones out, okay? Here's a quote, we believe that women are useful, not only a sweet houses, wash dishes, make beds, and raise babies, but that they should be able to stand behind the counter study law, or physics medicine, or become good bookkeepers, and be able to do the business in any Counting house. I'm freaking Young.

20:50 That's Brigham Young. Yeah. the guy that gets beat up the most around women's issues and the gospel. Yeah, that dude's ahead of his time and so I I bring up that quote to illustrate you two young ladies are not far off the Mark at all. I think that there is a rich history here that has been ignored for for far too long, and so I'm I'm super excited to get into this. Yeah, I mean this is something else. I guess I could look at the exact date she can talk. But yeah, the very very impressive.

21:32 Very patriarchal desert territory. Uh, was the first state in the Union 1870 to let women vote and then it was taken away. Yes. In 1870. Well, technically, Wyoming, I think passed Wyoming in Utah. Passed a resolution about and Wyoming was first, but you had an election before I am ended. So we had it, we lost it because all the women were going to vote for promise know, like, oh no! Yes. So it's taken away and then we regained it in 1896. Yeah. What just typical, right? I look at these issues, it's like, well, no, they can't really want that. They're not smart enough to vote for what they want, right? Like woman of, Marvin them for anyone who hasn't read that book, go read that book.

22:25 Um, the last, like third half of it, when, when was this book who wrote? It was written officially by Edward Woolwich with high high influence from the relief site, there's quote from Eliza snow, visiting relief, societies and saying, thank you so much for all your contribution to this book but it was published under and Edward, Welch's name and Brigham Young signed off on it. He thought it was great idea and he's like, yes, go write that book when It was published 1877. Um, and The last like third or half of it, it's actually talking about. Plural marriage a lot. And then specifically, they had this huge conference.

23:07 I think it was like 5,000 women and they would not let a single man attend and the reason why was because they knew if they let any men attend, then the US government would say, see look at how the men are forcing you to do this. And the one where like, no, this is what we believe, this is what we want, this is what we want to vote for and so we won't let them in attend so they can't use that argument against us. Okay. So I'm gonna ask two more questions. I'm gonna ask one more question here to each of you and then we'll jump in. But who, who is your favorite? Female personality from church history. That's hard.

23:50 Right now at this moment. I read a lot of stuff for my eyes are snow, but it's probably. Oh, I'm blanking on her name. Hyrum Smith swimming Smith. I was about to say. Mary feelings. Yeah, cuz she's great. There's a story of her where like she wants to come to Utah, crossing the Plains and everything, and the captain of the group. She's with is like, no, you're not prepared for that. You're not ready for that. She's like, I will make myself prepared for, and I will be ready for it. And I'm gonna beat you there because you say, I can't do it and she does, like, multiple things happen to prevent that from happening. And she beats them to Utah, including raising an auction from the dead.

24:32 Yeah, she raises the nasty from the dead. On the plane, it's great. We got that later, but yeah, I probably Hey, how about you, Zoe? Oh, I was gonna say that's well, yeah, I was great. Very I feel like Smith is yeah fabulous. I've been reading lots of books recently on women from the restoration. So there's a lot of great stories. He want to know who I really liked. Martha Hughes Cannon. Oh. You know who she is. Recognized the name. So she was born in 1857, she comes from England, she's an early, Mormon convert.

25:15 Um, And she ends up being married to. I think it's I think it's Oh, what was Canon? What was his first name George? I can't remember. Who George you, Canon. I think it's the I think she's married to the son of George Q Cannon. Oh Maybe I'd have to look. Let me see if I can pull it up here real quick. Um, Angus Cannon. Okay. That one I don't know. Okay, so if I'm not mistaken, she was a plural wife and she does some amazing things. She is one of the first women to get elected as a state senator in Utah.

26:06 Now, here's the interesting thing. She beats her husband for that senate seat. All right, it's her own husband. They stay married. Now, as a guy, I can promise you when Angus showed up to his next core meeting, there was a lot of what's a matter bro. Can't get your house in order. I mean, he, I care. I can't, I have no historical documentation to prove this, but I promise you. Somebody gave that man a raft because there's no way, dude, you're making it out of there without giving him a little bit of Gulf over that. But she does some amazing things moves on for with Healthcare and and she openly basically says I can only do this because of plural, marriage, right. I have more freedom now to do this. And so she's absolutely one of my heroes. I think she's she's an amazing woman, but all right. I think that's enough of that.

27:01 Let's let's jump in. What do you girls got? Okay. We're gonna start with the doctrine that we find in Mormonism and then get into how they've been Twisted. Well yes we say we say that Mormonism or the restoration should have this Rich, feminine Divine tradition. And so then this is why, why should we and we have a list. Yeah. So starting with Doctrine on heavenly mother, you have Eliza Snow's poem that's turned into a hymn because in the heavens are parents single. Know the thought makes reason stare. Truth is reason, truth, Eternal tells me of a mother there. There's also some scriptures that kind of point to this idea to Proverbs.

27:47 I've heard the idea before. I don't know if it's right, I think it's interesting idea, um, but that you should read Proverbs as heavenly mother speaking to her children because it is often referring to wisdom in as a personified feminine. and so we have Proverbs chapter 8, I can transcripts I guess I'd say backing up. As opposed to mainstream Christianity. Hmm. Mormonism or the restoration, has a very developed or should have a very developed idea of the feminine.

28:31 Divine. Yeah, you have this doctrine of heavenly mother and it's one of the kind of bug like bugs in the restoration as far as like you don't talk about heavenly mother, you don't you know, you don't talk about heavenly mother and we're getting to this a little bit later. I think that it is out of this. partially out of a misplaced fear of Either a misunderstanding or worrying about running into idolatry. Yeah. And no worshiping something closer to Ishtar. Yeah, yeah. Worshiping. You know, the fear is that in, worshiping the divine feminine people's, you know, sort of devotions will be misplaced.

29:17 And I think that's stupid because we don't avoid worshiping God for fear that are are Devotions will be misplaced, too. You know, some other God, yeah. I think that's a very valid point. I think, I think the other reason is is that You can't really name her if you're trying to get rid of a Doctrine. And let me let me explain this. If you're trying to jettison the Adam God Doctrine. You also have to just in the idea of we can name heavenly mother. and so, once once that Doctrine starts to fall out of favor, well, now you have to go to kind of a and ambiguous female deity.

30:04 That doesn't get approached right? Because you can't you if you can't name who God is you can't certainly can't name who his wife is. So what you have left over is things from like Eliza R snow that leaves modern mainstream LDS church and I'm not trying to to crap on the church here. I'm just telling you what I think from a historical perspective if you can't name God you certainly couldn't name his wife. Yeah and so you you have to kind of distance yourself from that. I mean, you see evidence This is one of three butts, the complete discourses. And poetry of Eliza are snow. It was published in 2024, and it has a little, I think it was put together by someone and the others church.

30:49 I'm not positive on that though. But it has a little, like, historical background section in it, and part of it, it goes over out of God. And is like, yeah, that's we don't believe that or anything and every time she mentions it which is usually when she's talking about how many mother as a footnote the refer you back to that historical section. Oh dear. Yeah. But no, it's true. One of the things that were also going to talk about later is an idea of and I should say one of the Tenets of restoration theology, which is nearest and dearest to my heart. Is the idea of literal childhood? Yeah. Um, So, within the restoration at least was then sort of rigor might Branch. So the restoration We believe in humans as the literal children of God, body and spirit in a way that is radical and life-changing.

31:48 And part of that is to my mind and idea of, you know, Adam God. And then by extension, all of the heavenly mother things, click. Because we, we hear about Eve, they talk about Eve and so have the doctor for her as our heavenly mother of King did everything. Yeah. And it changes the way we view her, I think you have a bunch of notes about this. Yeah. So when you Perfect. But Proverbs 8, Not going to read all the verses we have because it's a lot but you see this person if education with that's not wisdom cry and understanding put forth her voice she's standing in the top of high places.

32:35 By the way, in the place is of the pods, she cried at the gate at the entry of the city and the coming in at the doors. So you see this personification happen like lady wisdom. Yeah. and then you have, It's talking about the creation 22. Yeah. And it says the Lord possessed, me and the beginning of his way before, his works of old, I was set up from Everlasting from the beginning or ever. The Earth was. When there were no depths I was brought forth when there were no, fountains abounding with water before the mountains were settled. Before the hills was, I brought forth while, as yet he had not made the Earth nor the fields, nor the highest part of the Dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there when he set a compass upon the face of the depth when he established the clouds above, when he strengthened The Fountains of the deep. When he gave to see his decree that the waters should not pass to his commandment.

33:33 When he appointed the foundations of the earth, then I was by him as one brought up with him and I was daily, his Delight rejoicing always before him. So, it's showing that wisdom. And this personified feminine, is there in the beginning with the father? And I like that nrsv translation a little better of verse 30, where it says, then I was by him as one brought up with him, because in the King James, it almost sounds like a child, right? So this is we have a copy here of the NRC which is broadly considered, I think to be one of the more accurate depending on who you talk, depending on how you. Um, but so I'm just gonna back up a little bit says You know when he established Heavens I was there when he drew a circle on the face of the deep when he made firm the skies above when he established The Fountains of the deep when he assigned to the Sea its limit.

34:27 So that the waters might not transgress his command when he marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside him like a master worker. I was daily, his Delight rejoicing before him always rejoicing and his and how did World and delighting into the human race. Yeah, no. I I see what you're saying there. I do like that translation better. The one thing I thought about in verse 30 there were says then I was by him as one brought up with him. What do we know about about our father and God? Well, he was a man. He was more like the rest of us, right? in this life, if if we pass judgment Right?

35:10 The Judgment bar of God, we Ascend, right? If we look at historical Temple patterns, it's an Ascension, right? You start at the very bottom and you work your way up top. and, I couldn't stop but wonder if what she is saying. If this is heavenly mother, talking is saying I was brought up with him, meaning I was standing with him and and that to me is what jumped out in that verse, right? I was I was brought up with him, we ascended together and I was daily, his Delight rejoicing always before him, right? And now it paints this picture of God, looking at his wife. Delighting in her, right?

35:54 This this thing where where they come together and even the word Elohim, right? Which, which we find in in the scripture and in the temple, that's a plural verb, right? And for a lot of years, I thought, okay, this was a console of male Gods, who was there. I don't think that's it, give them that the gospels, a very family structured. I would think that that Council was probably husband and wife, I would guess. Um, And women is very much a creature of creation. There's a book called consider yourself as a by Megan Farner where she has this table that she's created of, here's a feminine spirit and things. And here's a masculine spirit and things. And one of the things that has in that table is the feminine, takes a spiritual and makes it physical, and then the masculine takes the physical and makes it spiritual. And you see this, for example, women we give birth, and we are bringing our bringing Spirit children into the Physical Realm, and giving them the body's, and then the men baptized those.

36:56 And it's another birth, but it's a spiritual ordinance worker, where you're taking something physical, and making it spiritual. Yeah, no totally. Um, on the Elohim thing, our good family, friend Tracy Roberts. He's been on here before I believe he definitely believes that. He talks about Elohim as The, you know, a masculine and feminine. I mean a man and a woman glorified as that's God and and this is, This is I think scripturally based, I mean because this is a D&C 132 thing, but you have to be sealed to be exalted.

37:39 Um, and feeling means. Well. You know, the two shall become one flesh, right? So half of half of a half of a marriage is not gonna get exalted without the other half. I feel like that Can cause some issues. I don't I don't think I don't think that works like that. I know here, yeah. So let's see. Another one we have is first Nephi 11. This is when Nephi goes to ask about the Tree of Life vision, verse 13 and 22. Sure. So he says On it. And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem and also other cities and I'm held the city of Nazareth and in the city of Nazareth by the held a virgin and she was exceedingly fair and white.

38:32 And I came to pass that. I saw the heavens open and an angel, came down and stood before me, and he said unto me Nephi. What? Behold this spout? And I said unto him a virgin most beautiful unfair about all other virgins. and he said unto me Noah's style, the condensation of God, And I said unto him, I know that he loved his children. Nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things. And he said to me, behold the Virgin who now see is the mother of the Son of God after the manner of the flesh. And it came to pass that I have held that she was carried away in the spirit. And after she had been carried away in the spirit for the face of the time, the angel spoke unto me saying, look, and I looked, And behold the Virgin Again bearing a child in her arms.

39:22 And the angel said to me, Behold the Lamb of God, yet even the son of the Eternal Father. Noah, the meaning of the tree, which thy father saw. And I answered him saying, yay. It is the love of God, which itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men, wherefore, it is the most desirable of all things. So here you often have the interpretation. So the tree of life is the love of God. So you often have to interpretation. That that means it's just Christ. I believe that's a completely valid interpretation that, it does not saying it's not Christ, but I think it's more than that because if it was just Christ, you could have showed Christ's Ministry on the earth.

40:03 Him coming suffering. Bleeding dying. What he showed, what the angel shows me by. Oh, sorry with the angel shows Nephi is The Virgin Mary and then Mary holding the Christ child. Which shows that the love of God is the mother and the mother with her child. And so it is Christ but it's more than that it's it's his wife, it's his family. and I think, This is something so I have mixed feelings about. the wonderful man, we call Martin Luther, um, because He did much good in sort of opening the world up. with the Protestant Reformation and creating a sort of environment in which the restoration would be able to grow. but also, He threw many babies out with the bathwater. because, for all you say, I have a deep respect for the Catholic church.

41:12 I think that the idea that it is the great and abominable church is completely ridiculous because there are only two churches. There's a church of the Lamb of God and there's a church of the devil and the Catholic church is not the Church of the devil. Ah, I agree wholeheartedly and I think there's issues and undoubtedly. Nobody's welcome to mankind. Yeah. Um, but I also think that there is a lot of beauty. and a lot of truth that as Mormons who come from a Protestant tradition, we don't have because the Protestants it was less and I should say in some respects it feels less like a turning back to scripture and Lord like a let's be not Catholic. Let's get his anti-catholic as we can. Um, but the problem is there was true and I think part of this is though, misplaced.

42:12 The Catholic church has a much more well-developed by feminine tradition than protestantism does. So, I do not condone this sort of Marion. Almost. I would say worship and that would get me a lot of angry Catholic. but I do not condone the Mary adoration, but I also think that There is a very important. Sort of Truth there as far as. God was the child of a woman and it's through this woman that he shows himself to mankind. And in that way, it is a Redemption for Eve, right? Good.

43:03 So, um, The the serpent that the, you know, descendant of Eve is going to get bitten by and then Crush its head. Obviously, we believe that's Christ but more than that I think people don't think about the Redemption of Eve. And if you have a belief and Adam goddaughter and then the Redemption of Eve maybe doesn't even need to have to happen, but just biblically. If you have the idea of oh, well, humanity is cursed because of a woman, then humanity is I just threw a woman we could take away from God.

43:43 Right through the actions of Eve, get cast out of the garden and then through the Virgin. Mary, God comes back down to us. Right. Right. You know, you you brought up Eve being the being labeled, the source of all of Humanity's problems. And if it's one thing that I love about the Restoration in Joseph Smith is He's gonna overturn, some theological tables in that department. um, in Joseph's Day. You're, you're 100% correct. The dominant theology stated. All of Mankind's woes comes because Eve just had to eat the fruit. Right, there's no new ones there. And because of that, we see a series of events where God's daughters are essentially shoved to the back, right? And, and the men kind of are content, keep them there. Joseph comes along.

44:44 And Joseph begins to. Reveal some things, restore some things from God about Womanhood and about their place in it. And it's so dramatic that. Now not only is it not not Eve's. It's not the to the blame of Eve that we go through this Mortal toil, right? It's for our benefit and she plays a heroic Um, position in that being, she's the one who who reasons things out and says, you know. And and here I'm gonna, you know, inject a little bit of of my own beliefs here.

45:24 So take it with a grain of salt but I can only imagine even the garden going. You know, God told us to have kids and we're not having any what's going on here, right? That process starts and she's the one that ultimately allows for us to be here. Okay to be there then Joseph's not done. Right? Joseph gets more Revelation and he says, yeah, fellas. Listen, if you want to get to where you ultimately want to go, you don't get to get there by yourself. You need a wife and it's only together that you two will be able to attain everything Mormonism has to offer both in this life and the life to come. So it is a radical message regarding feminine, you know, the the divine feminine nature within every woman that he addresses and brings forth and it sets Christianity on fire, a little bit as it should.

46:18 There's a quote in the woman of Mormonism. I thought I had in my document, I don't unfortunately but it's talking about you've partaking of the fruits and it says something along the lines of Um, the mother came and she chose to take of it and it would have outraged motherhood if she hadn't because it is part of her role in part of her sacrifice to eat and fall and condescend for her children. And if she had let Adam do so first, it would have been an Outreach to Motherhood. Absolutely. Absolutely great Point. Who made that in that in that book, who said that? Um, it's Edward Woolwich, I don't think that quote is Said to or attributed, attributed to anyone. There's some other quotes here, and I think, I think he's playing off a lot of what Brigham Young has said, because we're gonna have some quotes on her similar to that. Yeah.

47:15 And I think I think part of it too. Well, first off again, I believe in sort of Adam God reframes it all, from this horrible tragedy that can signs us to the tragedy that is this mortality To the ultimate sacrifice of being willing to as Christ did write crisis, you know, our second Adam. And in that he did the same thing. He's willing to condescend for And and fall and have, you know, the toil and the struggles because as exalted beings, they didn't have to do that. Yeah. And they chose to for our sakes that we could be born for the, you know, Redemption of our bodies much as Christ did for the Redemption of our spirits.

48:04 And I also think that one other aspect of this is that in restoration, theology, our bodies are not bad things. Yeah, so one very common thread in making Christianity. And this may be goes back to sort of the Gnostic tradition and maybe goes back to other places but there's an idea of the flash as bad body. You know, you're just one of the it's all over the sort of doctoral teaching of well once you release from your body once. You're so one of my favorite hymns is come out but in it there's a bunch of, you know clothes and flashed tell that shall lose me.

48:50 I cannot Proclaim it well and And so when you have the idea of body like the physical body as a curse as a cage, then the fact that Eve fell and we got physical body's sucks. Awful. Right? Because she just consigned generations to back pain like yeah, thanks a lot. Right, right. Um, but within the restoration, and there's an idea of the physical as holy as well. And it's, it's Fallen, but that doesn't mean that the concept is bad, right?

49:35 We believe in a God that has a body. And we believe the our body's are not cages, but enable us to do more things that our spirit ever could, which is the complete turning. All of the Christian doctor completely on its head. Joseph Smith stops into the picture and he says, we came to this earth that we might have a body and presents a pure before. God in the Celestial Kingdom. The great principal of Happiness consists and having a body. The devil has no body. And here in this is punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain a tabernacle of man and one cast out by the savior. He asked to go into the herd of swine showing that he would prefer a swine's body to having none. All beings who have body have power over those. Who have not no person can have this salvation except through a tabernacle Interesting.

50:22 You know, says it right there. Yeah, you even have it showing up in First Corinthians 3. It says, no, you not that. Your body is a temple. The file not. Playing the temple, and you'll be destroyed. No, you're not right, level of God and that spirit of God dwelling you? Yeah. Any man, defile. The temple of God. Him shall God? Destroy the temple of God is Holy which Temple? Ye are! Yeah, so I guess this is to say that it's exists in. I think the biblically there is some idea of this and it's just in sort of again, menstrual Christian ideas and ideology that it's become a problem twisted. And I don't see why because again that the body is limiting, we have mortal eyes. We have.

51:09 Mortal design, you know, flashy desires. And so then it's like, well what is the ultimate goal is the ultimate goal to be free from all of that or is the ultimate goal to have that all be purified? And turn. Holy yeah. and I think, um, we are gonna talk about us a little bit later. Um, but the obviously Mormon darkness is very explicit about God, having a body and the biggest one I think of that is an ether. What was the reference ether, 316 and 17. Okay. Um, you also have doctor and Covenants section 13022, where it says, the the father has a body of Flesh and Bones. In the sun has awesome. Either three.

51:52 Yes. So Um, yes, 6217. So This is the brother of Jared. And they're getting ready to leave and he's building these barges and he's like, but they're dark, we can't be in the dark and God's like, well, what do you want me to do? And the brother's like I'm gonna make these stones and you touch them and then they'll glow. says, and it came to pass that when the brother from ether chapter 3, And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words Behold The Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones, one by one with his finger and the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared and he saw the finger of the Lord and it was as the finger of a man, like on the flash and blood and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord. And he was struck with fear when the Lord saw that. The brother of Jared had fallen to the earth and the Lord said to him arise.

52:48 Why has so Fallen? And he said to the Lord, I Saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest, he should spot me for. I'm knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood. The Lord said unto him because of thy thou has seen that. I shall take upon me flesh and blood and never has man come before me with such exceeding Faith. As thou Hast for weren't not so you could not have seen my finger saw us that more than this. Um, and then a little bit later. He says, behold the Lord showed himself unto him and said because I know he thinks you are from the fall.

53:28 I'm gonna come back to this later. Therefore, your brought back into my presence. Therefore I show myself unto you behold. I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people, hold on. I'm Jesus Christ. I am the father and the son in me, shall all men kind of life. And that eternally, even they Who Shall Believe on my name, and they shall become my son's and my daughter's. And I never have I showed myself on demand. I have created for never has been believed in me. As thou Hast, see how that he are created after my own image. Yeah, even all men were created in the beginning after my own image, The whole this body which she now behold is the body of my spirit. And man, have I created after the body of my spirit and even as I appear under thee to be in the spirit, I will appear into my people in the flesh.

54:19 So now as I'm her own, I said, I could not make a full account of these things which were written. Therefore it's a five cents me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit. Even after the manner and in the life is of the same body, even as he showed himself onto the knee fights. and, Obviously this there's some quotes from Joseph Smith about how spirit is tangible. It's Magic. It's just more refined and we can't see it with our modal eyes. If you want to self about being made in the image that yeah. That's So we're gonna that is going to be Genesis. So you I have one more thing I want to say about this. What?

55:01 Okay, we are made in the image of God male and female and this should be a tip off at the very beginning that There is a. divine feminine, and See in in the within sort of Christian or Jewish understanding, they think that oh that means that God is both masculine and feminine in one being. And just presents himself as male when interacting with humanity and that is an abomination. Um, because God is a god of distinctions.

55:43 And his creative process is one of separation. which is something that humans can't do or the very beginning, he separates the darkness from the light and he separates the Earth from the waters and he separates the waters above from the waters below and he separates man from Woman, and The combining of things there is. Evil and this is a larger top and we can get into at this time. But One of the ways you can understand. The character of God Is by looking at the character's of the other gods, because he's not like any of them. And this is something that's quite spicy, perhaps, but I think it's very valuable. There is, I think it's Psalm 82, says like the gods of the nations are demons basically.

56:33 Um, there's a man by the name of Jonathan Cahn. Who is a Messianic Rabbi and he wrote a amazing book called The Return of the Gods. And his basic pieces, is that All of the Ishtar and Baal and molec and all of her ball, I guess and molec and all of these. Pagan gods. There is a spiritual reality behind all of that. Because they manifest himself to humans across culture sometimes and much the similar ways there is um, you know, this is why you have Zeus and Odin and it's like they're the same God, but one of them's North in the other one is great. and those cultures didn't really have a ton of interplay at least, then I think, But you know, his ideas.

57:25 Well, there's a demonic reality, a spiritual reality. That's manifesting himself to people, and it's worshiped. and so then, then it's more of a sort of a battle of, like, okay, well we haven't gone, but there's all these sort of demons that get worshiped as God and Um, they come back. So, his theory is that before Jesus came. The world was full of the worship of the humans was possessed, basically oppressed, at least by them. The Lord comes, he cleanses the Earth. And Christianity, spreads like wildfire. Um, but the demons aren't gone such things.

58:07 Don't just disappear. They just for the moment, don't have power over the world, but then there's a parable, I think it's in Matthew 7, Matthew 14, I'm not, I don't remember, but of a man who is possessed of a demon And it gets cast out of him and it goes and wanders in the wilderness. And then comes back and finds the man's mind. And Goes and gets seven other demons worth itself and they all possess the man together and he's worse than before he was ever cleansed. And so the sort of the answer is you're going to serve somebody. That's a Bob Dylan song but it's true. You Gotta Serve Somebody and you're going to be possessed while did you just really quote, Bob Dylan on the Mormon Renegade?

58:56 I did amazing and awesome, good for you. You found respect for Zoe. That was awesome. All right. Sorry, I just keep that up and call a timeout. That was amazing. All right. Yeah, it might be the devil and it might be lower But You Gotta Serve Somebody right? And so, The idea is that you have to be filled with some spirit. And you're going to be filled with the spirit of the Lord, or you're going to be filled with Spirit of one of these, other Spiritual Beings, who are not as nice as he is. and when you have so his sort of thesis is that As the world has rejected the gospel, they've opened themselves up to these ancient. demons who've come back, a lot of the Evils. We see in the world today are really, it's really just the worship of Ishtar and while and mollusk. Come back again.

59:56 Couldn't agree with you more. I have made the statement on this podcast several times. We still worship these Gods as a society. Let's not, let's not mince words. Here, the only thing that's changed is that it's been repackaged for modern consumption. And so the the the priests of molec, now all they've done is swap out, their red robes for white lab coats and Planned Parenthood. That's it. That's the difference. And that is that's such an important point to realize because if you can name and identify the ancient evil that's happening here, You have a better shot of being able to decipher the messages, which are so that goes so easily to co-opt people into it. I'm sorry to interrupt, you know, that's completely true. And that's the thing is the devil's, very cunning he will package his message and whatever way is Best for you to take it in my brother, served his mission and Sara Lee on Africa. And he still sees all that witchcraft possession that we read about in the Bible over there because they'll accept that over there and they won't completely rejected out of handle over there.

1:01:03 But we live in a secular world that is going more and more atheist. I'm not gonna stay and so the double housework in a different way, right? And he doesn't care. He doesn't care if you say you believe in him and the greatest lie. Right? That'll ever. Make people believe is that he didn't exist. Yeah and I think that's irritate you but it's very true again. He doesn't care if you say you believe in the dollar or not. I don't, I don't know him. But we and it's been this way from the very beginning and for some reason, we've forgotten, you know, we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against the principalities and powers of the era and against spiritual wickedness, in high places, it's been the same.

1:01:49 We do not change and this battle does not change. We just think we're so much better than the people back, then we would never worship. Molec, you never worship Ishtar. Oh, so Pagan and primitive like, well. Perhaps, but in a different way. So go basically let me sorry important because Ishtar or ashrae the queen of heaven Israel. There's a whole bunch of names. Is. She she gets power from the combining of things and the breaking down a dissolution of boundaries. She's often first.

1:02:34 She's often portrayed as a hermaphrodite of source with like breasts out of penis. And so, I refused to believe that my God is like that. my God is a god of separations and it's very clear and I had a restoration to our conference talk on this. So if you want to hear me, good recommend if you do it, if you wait. What's that? So is the restoration tour conference? When is that this year? When does that come up? That's a good question. I believe it is a 22nd and 23rd of May. Oh, so that's coming up in just a few months.

1:03:15 It is. Can people attend virtually? They can? Oh, you gonna turn it? Well, you should go to Restoration tomorrow conference.org and see what's there. I don't know if it's been updated this year. My father might not be too happy. I'm directing people to a website out of date. And you got the Shameless plug in there. She was. Playing. I need to take it out later. I will so good. but what I'm saying is it's more that we can get into, but I did have a talk on it about Ishtar and the modern worship of Ishtar and the idea of Jehovah as a god of separation.

1:03:56 Um anyway, sounds like a podcast so and that's good. I recommend I listen to it. So yeah, it sounds like a future podcast. If you're not, I would love this song. I'm very care about. So this is me saying that when God creates men and women in His image, it's not because he has both of them combined. It's because there are two beings that are jointly God. Yeah. Um, yeah, and I want to I've been well, here you read that and then I'm Gonna Come Back To The Ether because it's something else. Cool. Yeah. Just with Anna's image, you find that in Genesis one verse 27. You also find in Moses and Abraham, it's basically the same verse, just a different chapter. Number four Abraham.

1:04:41 And it's like one off from Moses. I think it's so God created, man in his own image and in the image of God created. He him melon female created, he them and if I remember correctly, I am not a Hebrew scholar. I just talked to those who are, but the word for image, there is a physical thing. It's not just this idea that's out there. It is a physical image. Yeah, and in this, there is so in this idea of being made in the image of God, right? That lends differently to the body and it also lends dignity to the sort of separation of men and women and how they're both created in the image of God, the violently ordained and it was like that in the garden. Right, right in a state of perfection, there was still this sort of dichotomy and right.

1:05:35 It was good. Yeah. Yep. And so, Then I guess the other thing which is amazing to me is that and we're going to get into a minute, get into sort of the scriptures around the literal childhood of us. but, this is from ether 3:13 um, said and when he had said these words that brother of Jared The hold the Lord, showed himself, onto him and said, behold, because now was these things, y'all redeemed from the fall. Therefore, he brought back into my presence, therefore I show myself on TV. So, this is something that I care so much about, because In. There's there's this idea in Aristotle's Poetics. Which is basically his how to write a play. 101 manual by Aristotle. and he talks about, um, in an intragovernmental. but, He says that one of the one of the two things you could have sort of Pinnacle of the

1:07:06 emotional build of this is what's called anarchists. And it's a moment of recognition. um, And one of the way where in a moment, you go from ignorance to knowledge, and your sort of eyes are open. So, one of the classic example of this in Greek culture is of Oedipus, when he realizes what's happened, it's the emotional climax of the story and it's a moment of really recognizing Um a good really good example for the Bible is of in Luke, like 24 with the men on the road to Emmaus. and Christ comes and he talks to them and they're just build up of the story and then they realize it's him and he leaves Um, there's a very sort of Greek Framing and recently, I've developed more of a respect for the Greek culture, because I think a lot of a lot of times like, oh well, the Greeks and the Romans were in the church or whatever.

1:08:08 But also like ancient Greece was much closer to ancient Israel than we are now. The cultures are much closer and so I've come to find a lot of wisdom. And so there's this idea. Another really good example is with Joseph and his brothers Right. Well, they really realize that it's their brother in front of them. And so this is what each other has with the Lord. So I never knew you had a body. Sees the Lord. He's like, oh my gosh, and then it reframes. Everything else. Right? And then you realize that like what Joseph's brothers they go and instant from being these recorded, you know Canaanite men who have stolen from the second in command to pharaoh and probably deserve to die, to the brothers, all the second command of pharaoh and therefore, they have the right to call on him. Right. and so, when we realize, Who God is? when we realized the fact that we are, literally his children Then that is salvation because now we realize that we have the right to relationship with him.

1:09:20 We have the right, his protection and his Mercy we're not just some random Little Creations or his children. And this obligations that go along with that and it gives us dignity and it gives our relationship with him Daniel and it changes everything. So I think we should probably roll into the. Yeah. So versus that go with how we are literal children of God, we have at 17 verse 20 29. It says for in him we live and move and have her being as certain. Also of your poets have said, for we are also his offspring for as much. Then as we are The Offspring of God, we ought not to think that the godhead is like unto gold or silver or stone Graven by Art romance device.

1:10:04 Offspring, there is awesome in the Greek. It is like literal childhood. It's not because people like to sometimes make this out to be like, oh no, he's talking figuratively or just spiritually, but it's associated with, like, actually being born and being the literal physical. Children of somebody. Um, we also have Romans 8:16 And 17 where it says, a spirit itself, beareth witness, with our spirit that we are the children of God and if children then heirs Heirs of God and Joint heirs with Christ. If so be that we suffer with him, that we also that we may be also glorified together. You want to read?

1:10:45 Oh yes. Oh, hold on. Let me see. Yeah. Um, from the Romans 8. Well, where's the adoption? Sorry, I'm trying to find. Oh, you're good. You're just fine. there's a, there's a verse and Romance 18. um, talking about I mean, oh eight. Sorry, Romans 8. Is it the Romans 18? um, that we get the the spirit of adoption by by which we cry. Abba Father and I'm Braxton talked about this on his restoration podcast and I want to read it again what he said which is this is from Systematic Theology.

1:11:36 But it says when You speak of adoption. It's a legal process. Well, now, You only gonna adopt it if you're not a child? Yeah. But in this time, in in Roman culture, right? This is to the Romans. It was. A sort of claiming of a child that was already yours. Maybe you have, you know, children with a bunch of women and some of them are slaves and some of them are concubines. But there's this legal process of saying, this is a child. This is a son of mine or daughter mine that I want to inherit. To inherit my position, my power, my, you know, wealth, and so in, this is this is true because we go from being children to children who stand to inherit the goodness and the glory and the power of God.

1:12:31 Absolutely, which is the promise, right? Which is the whole reason for for Christ Ministry is to bridge that Gap so that we can have that so that he can, he can rectify The, the damage that has been done in our lives. I love that. And I just think one more thing is it. One thing that the restoration specifically, bring your mind, I guess gets Flack from Six. Flag from, from Christianity, is the idea that we are like God and we can become Gods. That's her radical. But even though it's found in the Psalms, well, look at that. I just you are literally the, the sons of God, right?

1:13:14 But it makes sense because again literal childhood, I am going to grow up and I'm gonna be like, my father, And if I'm not going to be like my father, something's wrong and I'm not actually his child. We have the children of God and we're what are the children do that girl? And they'd be like their parents. I want to grow up and be like, my parents and I get big Absolutely, I couldn't that it it's such an important thing, right? And, and this is one of those things where I'm gonna make a categorical statement. I'm gonna get spicy now and I am anticipate the hate mail. Come from some of our sectarian brothers and sisters here but you cannot fully understand Jesus or his mission without understanding the Divine parentage from where we all come from. You cannot understand the scope of love that exists. Without it.

1:14:10 I don't think we fully can understand it anyway, but you can get a heck of a lot closer. If you recognize the familiar ties and bonds that, make that a thing. Yeah, this is the first principle of the Gospel to know the nature and character of God. Joseph Smith. Yeah, it's pretty interesting because Jesus says the same thing in John, right? This is life. Eternal to know know me the only true God. Yeah. And Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ. Yep. Yep. Okay, you want to read from Psalms yeah. So Psalm 82 6. Um, which I think if I remember, right Christ? Quote, because like Pharisees and or Sadducees mad at him because in Mark. But yeah. I have said, year gods, and all of you are children of the most high Um, Elias are snow, said a lot of things along these lines too when she was talking to the woman of the Relief Society, she's like constantly trying to get this into their heads of and looking upon my sister's, I see the daughters of Eve and we possessed The Germ of becoming Queen's in the Eternal Worlds.

1:15:09 We should all remember that we are Daughters of the most high and should Endeavor to honor that calling. And I, I think it's all so worth talking about, just the way Society has changed. So it's Foundation drastically. So when it started, It was sort of semi-autonomous like 90, but the relief society and its, oh, well, we, you know, make meals for this sick people. And we have little cute events and maybe we have like, a prayer list or whatever, and it was very much different again, over time the power of so much has been the so much so many facets of the church have just been shaved down and short of their Glory.

1:15:53 So, even the idea of literal kingdom of God, right? We're gonna build a king of God on the earth. It's gonna be a physical political entity of the sort of counsel, 50, whose job is to Establish the kingdom of God and nobody talks about that. I just and people don't understand, is that those things are inseparable. the spiritual is the political and vice versa, and This is the sort of thing with at least Society of it is nothing like it used to be. Yeah, so the relief society, when I was set up by Joseph Smith one, you actually have to apply to get into it. You had to have two women within the release of societies, speak on your behalf and part of that was to make sure everyone was kind of on the same page with it and was actually committed.

1:16:42 And it was I want to make sure I phrase this correctly because what I'm about to say can be misinterpreted and I don't want to be misinterpreted It is set up Joseph Smith set up the Relief Society. In the same way, he set up the priesthood. He says something along those lines. The Release Society is to help aid. The bishop Eliza has no talks about that. A lot of how the Bishops kind of like the father over the ward in a sense. And so the Relief Society is to come and help with that, but it's supposed to be more than that as well. And where the men have priesthood, the women have the relief society and there's a quote that's often.

1:17:26 Quoted as Joseph Smith turned the keys for the relief society in the original minute, for the navi release anxiety. It says that Joseph Smith turned the keys to the Relief Society. For them to start it and run it. Um they were also it was put forward that they have offices the same way that the priesthood has offices though. They did have its talked about a lot. It isn't really explained but like you can kind of get it from Context Clues in the lines are snows writings when she's talking to the Relief Society, they did have an office of teacher which was, yes, you go and preach the gospel. This is awesome like the minor ministering sisters that you'll see where you go, and you help take care of the people. You help with births, you help with things like that and those women were awesome.

1:18:20 The woman were highly called upon if you were within the relief society and then, especially if you were within this calling of teacher in their religious Society to give blessings because women do have access to God. So, confinement blessings, which confinement blessings is basically to my understanding, I'm still trying to find more sources on it because it's kind of hard to find stuff on but it's basically the blessing that you give a lot that a woman Washington right before birth. Priorities also called a mother's blessing. Yeah. And heard some other names for it too. so, I'm You mind if I share a story real quick. Absolutely. um, My wife Tanya that we just had a baby when she came into the family.

1:19:11 She said before she came in, I should say when we were recording Um, I'll never forget the conversation. Where we were coming from? we were in the truck and She said you probably need to know. That. Doctors many multiple Dockers have told me that I won't be able to have children. There's some stuff there going on. And I said it, it's okay. I understand. And she said, According to the doctors I can't even get pregnant and I'm like, I still love you. I still want you it.

1:19:51 None of that. While it would be nice. And I'd be blessed. I'm, I'm worried about having you is what I said. And so to our surprise, she got pregnant. She miscarried. And we ended up having about three or four miscarriages. And when we got to to Missouri here, we find out about Mother's blessings. and, This last time. We pulled out every single stop and there were some other things that went along with this, but I want to, I want to say this. She received a mother's blessing. And her sister wife was, was there for that, and really participated in that. and this time we got through it, this time, we had a kid and, Again, I go back to many of the questions that are asked in the LDS church. Now concerning the role of women and priesthood and the divine feminine.

1:20:58 We are uniquely positioned to answer. You. They may not like everything that goes along with it. But nonetheless. It's 100% in the historical record we you're absolutely correct. We do have women who were exercising, priesthood back in the day. If I'm not mistaken early on one of the things that that that you ladies brought up here about Mary Fielding Smith. If I'm not mistaken, I'd have to go back and look at the record. You might have better record than I do, but I think there was priesthood that she exercised and that and getting that ox and up, she anointed it and laid hands on his head.

1:21:41 According to a woman of Mormon dumb. She went and got another man to do that. Oh, okay, did she okay? Yeah. So pretty should was involved, okay? Yeah. Right into the woman, though. I don't know if there's other sources or something else, it's entirely possible, but you do have this is from this person's Eliza snow. She's talking to a Relief Society somewhere. Um, Salt Lake City 20th, Ward released Society, June 3rd 1869. And she's been talking for a while now about women. Like, this is part of your duty. This is your role to bless the woman and children in your life and she says and the notes, it says, when sister's not was asking the sisters to impart anything of utility to the sisters, that all might be benefited.

1:22:30 She thought if she spoke she would relate an incident which occurred with her when with her when her first son was about six weeks old. He was taken very sick one day the Prophet Joseph came in he told her. Sorry, I thought you were saying oh neither. um He was taken very sick. One day the Prophet Joseph came in he told her to bathe the child and anoint it with oil and administered to it and he would get well she had always followed that course since and found it always to be good. And what was the name of that woman? That was a lizard snow. He did that talking to the relief Societies in 1869. Yeah, yep. Um, there's also teaching from Prophet Joseph Smith talks about how there was an argument that happened.

1:23:17 I can't remember what meeting in but it revolved around can women give healing blessings is that allowed and he was like well, yeah, like if God's healing them obviously they're okay with it. There's no there's no more sin and a woman or her hands upon her child's head. Then it is to wash with water. Absolutely. So this is again it's there. And so when there you know, there's a lot of discourse now around oh women's priesthood and you know the church he doesn't doesn't or Dan women and so it's so awful and women don't have the priest and that's so awful. I was like well, Well, I just have a different role within the priesthood and the power of God and it depends on how you're defining Priestess.

1:24:02 This is also obviously Temple, you know, Temple work when inspiration within the temple and specially. I guess it's a higher levels but it's there. It's all already there. We don't need to reform it. Just gotta go back, right? And the other thing is, I had deep sympathy and I understand for the people who Try to do the sort of heavenly mother stuff now and they want the witness to because it's very valid longing because it is there, it's true it's supposed to be there but the problem is that in wandering away from not understanding or not knowing about the historical way. People wandered a strange paths on our loss. and, It is very important to remember that men and women are different. We have different roles and that is good. There's a book that I read recently that I love, I don't agree with everything in it, but a lot of it was really good. And really helpful to me, I will slow down. He called magnetic feminine femininity by Ali Doucette and in it she says wear masculine, energy is leading feminine, energy is following.

1:25:20 This was a very distressing thing for me to come to terms with 10 years ago when I started grappling with this because I viewed myself as a leader. When I prayed about it, I heard you are the left hand. I was making cookies. At the time I saw that, my right hand, my dominant hand was a masculine energy. In this example, it was taking the lead with stirring, but my left hand was holding the ball. If I let go of the bowl, I couldn't stir. And if I tried to hold the bowl with my right hand and stir with my left, the Sterling process was unnecessarily, difficult and inconvenient. It made the most sense to let my right hand lead the process. And my left hand follow, this doesn't mean that my left hand was less important, but the masculine and feminine roles are equally important, just different and function and presentation being.

1:26:03 The follower is not less than it is just as important and perhaps even more important because anyone can Lead. But only if someone chooses to follow them, the followers gets to choose who they will follow. And if they do not want to hear the cooperation one way or another, the leadership will fail. Right, there's a great personally disagree with the more important comment. I think both are important just in different ways, right? I think there's a really lovely quote that I don't have up. I didn't realize I would need it, but about how the first follower takes the crazy guy into a leader. The transformation there. Now, say that one more time, the first follower takes some random crazy.

1:26:45 Dude. To a leader Jane, right? No, no, that's, that's kind of true. In fact, when Kind of a different way, right? I wouldn't say leader and stuff but I remember Tanya said something once. To Amber that. I just happened over here. She's like, I'll forever be grateful for you because I don't have to housebreak David. So it's it's some ways in some ways Amber did. Did that for work, right? She was that first one who was like, I don't know what she saw. All, I'll just say that. Now, when Amber met me, my hair was long, both my ears were pierced. I mean, I was, I was a little.

1:27:27 I was a little out there and but, Zoe that, that quote actually makes a lot of sense, right? Um, I wouldn't be the guy that I can be for Tanya without Amber doing the really hard work first, right? Um, But that's so true, that's that's 100% true. Zoe I I just I couldn't help but that that really seemed to resonate a lot. And I think, the other sort of part of it again, is You know, the men have to be married in order to be exalted, are are exaltation, and the expectation of the men are tied up together. And the way that the cannot be disentangled, um, and and part of that also is the sword of the, I guess the choosing of it because One of the one of the ways I think that the discussion around.

1:28:34 Gender roles, and biblical, gender roles. And all of that gets Perverted is the idea that the women have to submit to the men? Um, which is not true. The idea is you submit to your husband, specifically, not just men in general, so, as somebody who values that, I'm not just because you happen to be born. A man does not mean you were worthy of respect, does not mean you're worthy of being followed, does that mean you're worthy of obedience or submission or any of that? I'm going to choose somebody. Who is a good enough, man, and who is close enough to God as I say, okay, I trust you. I respect you that.

1:29:17 I would honor You by saying, all right. To you. I will do these things and be these things and you're submit or obey. And not just to manage General because that's awful. I'm not going to manage General. I'm sorry, but know that you really should. I think that all. So With the proper understanding and could reduce a lot of the problems around that. Because there are a lot of, you know, maybe sort of relationships that are abusive. It's like, oh well, you know, You're my woman, you have just like, no. Like if we're married and you shouldn't marry somebody unless you're darn sure.

1:29:57 That they're going to be. one of the things I love so much about that magnetic femininity but is kind of the main point of it is stepping into the feminine energy means She doesn't like the word submission. So she throws that out. And she only uses vulnerability instead. Um, but a lot of what she talks about is a good form of submission, um but you're being vulnerable with your husband or if you're single with God, either way with God, but with your husband, if you're married, um, and you're trusting him and you're relying him with, on him and a lot of things and to kind of surrender, some of that control that woman sometimes like the take and just trusting her husband to lead and trusting God to lead. And then at the end she goes into this idea where she's like, okay, it sounds a lot of the times when women come in and they are like, yeah, my husband is so narcissistic and he's so this and he's so that he's so controlling or whatever. She's like, when you actually start implementing these things, it's usually because you've taken on a masculine role and you're creating this conflict because you're trying to take your husband's role.

1:31:09 And so, it's causing conflict. And if you step Into your feminine role. Then it'll help balance those things out. But she's like if you step into that role if you're being vulnerable and these things and they're still an issue there and there still is manipulation there. Then you've shown that this isn't a good person to follow and true femininity is stepping away from that and going. No, you don't stay with the abuse, you don't stay with the toxic manipulation and I got that. Also just want to say that. Well. I'm trying to find the words here. That thing is, maybe that's the ideal but oftentimes people don't talk about masculine ideal which is to love your bride as Christ.

1:31:56 Loved the church two, your own death to the laying down of your own body for her Redemption. Yeah. Um, and so and And within. So if you say oh well, you're setting yourself up for massive harm. You're setting yourself up for being abused and whatever I was like, well that's the idea, not being abused, you vulnerability is the ideal but the corresponding mask, that idea is the sword of self-sacrificial. Love that Christ has for the church. And he also see this in the story of Hosea and Gomer. Um, where he's willing to do anything for you, buy redeem, this woman and in a sort of system, we're both of those things are true.

1:32:49 Then you want to have heart. Right. But trying to, but one of them without the other. Yeah, is setting yourself up for heartbreak? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know and and here's I want to unpack a few things, you said Michaela, but I want to make make something here real. Make a point here real quick. Society and and I was born. Into kind of a weird time, right? I was born in in 77, don't laugh. I'm almost got my AARP card. I'm looking forward to this, but there. It was just.

1:33:30 I was born just long enough ago that I can remember life without the internet, right? And so, social media and cell phones, and all those things yet, young enough that I figured out how to work at all. But the one thing that I've been able to notice is that we have as of late, we have for some reason really set men and women against each other. And I have found that that is absolutely one of the worst things that has ever happened to Western Society. and, With with things like being quoted as toxic masculinity and those sorts of things. And there be toxic masculinity 100%. I'm not saying that that thing doesn't exist, but I think we've been too quick to label anything masculine as toxic. Yeah.

1:34:22 And what was Zoe pointed out with being ready to die? I remember. Um, as I'm sure everybody knows here, my dad passed away when I was fairly young. I was 13 and towards the end of his life. I really think he understood that he was not gonna be around much longer. And so the whole summer before he passed, and we had no idea that he was really sick. He He made. Sure I was with him. Always. I mean, like, we were driving everywhere together, and he was just, I didn't realize it at the time. Um I just figured the old man was maybe getting a little old and was just started to ramble.

1:35:08 Um but I think he he really had a good idea, he was going to pass and he was instilling lessons. And I remember, he told me he once he said, if you take a woman, if you take a, a woman on a date or you, you go somewhere and she gets hurt on your watch, you will answer to me. And it's something that and my dad was, was a big guy. Both of you have met me in person. I'm not small by any stretch of the imagination, but my dad was a good six inches taller than I am. And that way Me by about 50 pounds. He was a big dude and instilled, the fear of God in Me for sure. but, Many of those traits that are get labeled toxic.

1:35:49 I don't think they're toxic. I think they're just out of control. Yeah. And you you have to be able to do it. You guys know who Jordan Peterson is, right? The psychologist. He's got a great saying, which is As a man, you should be dangerous and you should also have that very much under control, and I believe that. So, Michaela, I want to, I want to unpack what you said here, because this kind of ties in with it. When you talk about, when you use the word vulnerable for a woman and in the context that you did, let's define that a little bit. What do you mean vulnerable? Women are very feeling creatures even when we don't want to be.

1:36:32 and, So, we have to be willing one. We're inherently vulnerable, we are susceptible to risk. Women are biologically weaker than men like the strongest woman. Isn't going to beat out the strongest man ever. And a lot of men who even don't work out that much can beat most women when it comes to physical strength and a building. Um so we're naturally vulnerable in that I think also you just in having children. Yeah. so, in In having children with somebody, you're putting yourself in a state of very much vulnerability for at least a year and a half. Yeah, you know, not much of a padding see and then another nine of postpartum and that babies not gonna be done nursing or, you know, needing formula in our modern world. But historically, that wasn't an option until they're, you know, nine months or a year at least.

1:37:32 And so it is, that is As vulnerable as you can get. Yeah, we are very susceptible to harm and to danger and it's part of why women need men is because men will protect women and we'll keep us safe from. But like there's been one who have talked about, where Most if not every woman has had an experience where she has to walk to her car in the dark alone and she's terrified for her life because you don't know maybe nothing happens and nothing ever happens. And that's great. But there there's that possibility and that risk because we are physically vulnerable in that way. But then, there's also, though, we need to be emotionally vulnerable, we are supposed to open up to the people in our life, especially gone in her husband's and share our emotions part of what the book that I talked about goes over is magnetic femininity my Ali duet, she talks a lot about how men are biologically.

1:38:39 Ingrained that if a woman that they love comes to them in their life and goes, I need help with this. The men want to solve it and come forth with the solution and so As women, if we come vulnerably with our feelings and we lay that out even though that's scary, the men in our life will want to help us, but you have to do. So from actual emotion and innocence and not manipulation. Because you'll have a lot of women who come with like the fake tears and stuff like that. That's not vulnerability. That's manipulation. And it's not the same and it's not good. but to open yourself up to the possibility of being hurt for the betterment of yourself and your family and those around you. Is good.

1:39:26 Absolutely. And there's there's a great there's a great little short that I saw on Facebook a little while ago and it is kind of true when when Michaela you talked about coming with with sincere, vulnerability. I want to say, guys, feel that too. We just Can't that down right? We feel it. I think we probably feel it. Probably pretty similarly, but it's just not stuffed, dudes. Talk about. Um, but this one, this one video. I was telling you about little short. Um, It says how men feel when when their wives ask them to do something that they can't. And so it's just a woman handling like a jar of pickles to her husband and he likes snaps it off and just kind of leans his head back and just flashes to every man, only thing you could think of just in order, right? And but there's a lot of Truth to that, right? I mean, for for guys to be of service like that in their own household.

1:40:24 Yeah. It it helps. I'm not gonna lie. It helps. It absolutely does. So I know, I just want to unpack that. I think that's fantastic. well, that's the this is going to some other things but that's the The great question of the men's eyes. A great question of, the women's Minds is very different. The menus is I am I able And I work, you know am I strong enough? Can I do all the things, am I a man? And for the women and I lovely and my desired am I valued enough to be cherished and be productive and Something like here, open this jar of pickles for me. And answers both of the questions at least, for that. Yeah.

1:41:10 It's funny how crisis, puts all things in perspective and I think I shared the story on the podcast not too long ago, but it'll be several weeks, so I'll share it again here. I did. I had a guy that worked for me very outdoorsy. But he made some questionable questionable decisions from time to time. and he told me right after his wife, had a baby, And his wife was was like. Unhealthy feminist, right? Like third, fourth wave feminist, right? And I just asked him Friday, you know, Friday? You know right before works on like, what are you doing? He's like, oh, I think we're gonna take the the baby out. I mean, they had just had a baby like three or four weeks ago, and we're just gonna go for a drive. I'm like, where you gonna go?

1:41:56 So how I'm thinking about going to Baker Oregon, which isn't wasn't too far away. It was like two hours drive from where we lived. I I said well, be careful because, you know, it's winter, right? Don't be careful. Going up some of those logging roads. You'll get stuck. Oh, I got it, I got this. Well, they got stuck. Right. And He's about two miles down, the hill to go for help, because that Subaru is not making it out of there. And I hear about this story. I'm on Monday or Tuesday, but they get, they get up there. They get stuck. And now you gotta make decisions, right? Can't stay in the car all night. That's not an option. You got a baby, you gotta get out of there, but it's two mile hike in the mountains.

1:42:41 Well, who's going to go? Well, it was a no-brainer. The dude's gonna go because mom's got stay in the car and feed the baby and all the sudden, those roles that that we questioned in society, When when crisis hits that all gets distilled down really quickly right now, who was more important was, the husband more important or was the wife more important. The answer was, they're both pretty darned important at that time, right? Somebody's gotta stay and take care of that kid. Likewise, someone's got to get down the hill and it made a lot of sense that the guy who you know, the husband who was bigger, he was Stronger. He was faster that made sense get down the hill right and made sense for Mom to stay in the car where it was warm and feed the baby.

1:43:28 There was nothing there about who's more important in that moment. All roles are just as important as the other and those rules had to be separated. For a time to accomplish the end goal which is keeping everyone alive and warm, right? And so I tend to, I tend to view these things. Quite frankly through crisis, right? What happens in a crisis situation that will inform me greatly about God's plan on these things and and relation between when men and women. Mmm. Right. I oh man. I think gonna get going, we have to move on, there's so many things and so much good things, but just a few things, before we start getting into mindset and how it affects well, I was gonna do the Misunderstood, um, yeah.

1:44:18 Most of these we went over. So, yeah. I I'm just gonna run through real quick of just, Hope I didn't derail anything. No, you're good. It's all good. They just too much. It's just doesn't it very much does, but um, Why, why is it so easy to lose sight of all of this? Actually, I'm gonna run to a few more things so we believe in a fortunate fall, right? That's a good talk about which we talked about. Um, but also there's examples in the, the scriptures of the women, the women have access to God. Yeah.

1:44:59 And we kind of forget about that. So you talked about the office of teacher within Society in the Bible, there's a female Deaconess, um, that's biblical. And I don't know any sect of Mormonism that has that see, we professed to believe the Bible and then there are things in there that we completely gloss over. Um, there's one second more organism I know which is the Church of Christ bicker tonight. So the group that followed Sydney Rigdon after the succession crisis and then they had early sort of prophet named William Pickerton and they have deaconesses. And I actually got to go to one of their conference like little area conference a couple weeks ago and it was amazing. that's a whole different story, but also you have examples of You know, Deborah, she's a prophetess and a judge in Israel. Um, you know, Anna and Anna lives in the temple. Married lives in the temple.

1:45:55 There is there is there's these little red crumbs Hannah prays to God for his son. Hey Garcia's in the angel after praying. So and I think that there's undoubtedly a lot more because ultimately, most of this is Rich by men and it's about been stories and a lot of times the Men's stores are much louder. And much more. Much louder until then my fourth forceful, and they're more in the Forefront. There's a thing where it's men are ordered. Women are chaos and there's a scene in the shop where the guys up in the mountains and he's talking to this woman who's symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

1:46:45 And they're having this conversation. I can't remember what it's about, but one of the things that's mentioned is the chaos of the garden around them because she's taking care of all these flowers and everything. Sorry. And he's just like, it's so chaotic and at the end of the scene and zooms out and it shows the garden and while they were in it, they're in this chaos. But when you see the big picture, you see, the order and you see the beautiful pattern and that's kind of the difference. Women tend to be running a lot more of like, they chaotic day to day little things. But without it, it wouldn't be moving where men tend to be in that Forefront showing the structure in this order. And this leadership, which is also very important because order needs chaos and Chaos needs order.

1:47:30 It's the sort of thing to get rich in the animals of history, but there would be no history. Yeah. Right to record on the other side. Absolutely. Okay. So and then one, one of the things I think we'll talk about is a little bit. Later is just the improper, search for the divine feminine. So in preparing to go on, I was like, this is, this is kind of spicy because a lot of A lot of people don't really like talking about heavenly mother because they throw again worried about the apostasy worried about oh the idolatry around it. And again like I said before, we don't avoid worshiping heavenly father because we're talking about him because we're worried that we're going to accidentally commit adultery. Yeah.

1:48:12 I think the way in which you can do these things, Which is good. I do want to point out like there is good in that caution as well, because part of the, like, Misinterpretations, or Miss teachings or twisting that happen with this is you start to get into new ages. Um, these are asked herth worship, you also see this thing called starseed. Um, I I ended up kind of down a new age Rabbit Hole several years ago. I highly recommend against it for anyone and all people are people with a new ages and within the ghost hunting with and all that are messing with things, they do not understand and it is very dark and you can end up in some bad places, there's a thing called starseed where like, basically what it is, is the idea of something about you isn't fully connected to the Earth.

1:49:10 There's it's based off the idea that there is something Divine about you, but what it turns it into is, your actually, an alien on Earth and if you meditate enough, then you can see your star seed family and they'll appear to you. So, I was listening to this interview who from this woman who had come out of new ages. Um, and she had believed all this that she was a star seed and she had her starseed family appeared to her, as angels of Life. You've come from another planet. Yeah, another galaxy and you've been sent as this Angela being to the Earth to like help. Raise the vibrations. And yeah, and she had these angels of light up here to her and give her Direction and things like that. And so it's very very careful because it's Satan can appear as an angel of Light and He will try to deceive you and he will try to make it look close enough that it's deceiving but Twisted enough that you're on the wrong path. And again this is It's true.

1:50:11 Part of it is true. Yeah. That the disconnected or the feeling like this, isn't it? It's not. We are strangers and pilgrims and wandering. And there's Earth is not our home. It's it's a really really awful summer camp. It's like oh, okay, character building. That's it and maybe you break your legs and then you go home with end of it. It's like oh man. I got eaten by this kiddos. But like that was fun. I only laughed because I only went to one summer camp ever and I got kicked out. So I started my bad mom. That's another story for another time. Anyway.

1:50:55 No, I said even in this, like what you just talked about, right? What was it called again? Darcy. In that and it's origin story. So to speak. It's got some Adam Gotti kind of things, right? Um, it and so as as Zoe puts out look. Lucifer smart he's not done, right? and more than telling outright lies most of the time what I find is he just takes a true principle and just twisted. Right, sometimes he'll flat out lie. We see we have that in the garden, right but he also kind of uses truth.

1:51:35 He is the gods you'll understand good and evil, don't worry. You're not gonna die. Right? He'll just throw in the lie as he twists the truth to make it that much more appealing. So I think you're 100% correct? I think there's so much there that we need to be careful of because yeah, it can lead you and and the other thing is is that typically not exclusively but typically for some reason a lot of new new age practitioners are are women um And I think part of that is quite frankly. Here's my space spicy cake. quite frankly because Christianity has done a piss poor job at implementing the sister's and when you take something that is divine and as well placed as women serving in the gospel and you tell them just to go to church and sit down and shut up. They're gonna go look they're they'll look for something. Yeah, and so Mormonism is uniquely positioned to answer those questions Zoe.

1:52:40 Sorry, I didn't mean it. Thank you for resetting our thesis for us. That's nice. Oh, sorry, my bad. I didn't silly though. This is the truth. That was not meant to be snarky. I just okay. Okay. I I just didn't want to steal your thunder. No not at all but I am gonna disagree with you. Because I don't think that the serpent lies in the garden. And I don't think well, I guess I guess I mean because they don't die. Well, no, no, not even that so I've got Dennis's too and three opened up here. and so God talks is talk to Adam even created yet. And he says, you know the Lord God commanded the man right?

1:53:23 No eat yet. Saying of every tree of the garden now my ass freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil Thou shalt not eat of it or in the day that thou Eater of Thou shalt surely die. and then in the next verse God says it's not good that the man should be alone and creates Eve. Okay, so you have to commandment given to Adam saying don't eat or you're surely die. All right. This is the next chapter chapter 3. It says, now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field, which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman. Yay hath. God said, ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden. And the woman said unto the serpent. We may eat of the fruit of the Trees of the garden, but of the fruit of the tree, which is in the midst of the garden. God hath said, You shall not eat of it. Neither shall you?

1:54:20 Touch it? Lest you die. So, right there. Somewhere along the line, there's been a hedge placed around the law. Right. Yeah, actual commandment. God said don't eat it. And then now, here's Eve rehearsing to the serpent. God said, don't eat of it or touch it. Okay. So, somewhere along there, whether it's from Adam to Eve or from, you know, in Eve's mind and to the serpent, there's been this extra not a commandment, but it gets packed on to God's words. So now she's running off of the flawed script. Right. So you shall not eat a bit not as I touch it unless he died and the serpent said to the woman. He shall not surely die.

1:55:07 Which is true based on what she is just said. She shall not surely die. If you just touch it, they'll be fine. You shall not surely die, but she doesn't understand because it's all the same commandment to her. Even though actually only one of the fast of it is. So for sure it goes on it's for God know that in the day you eat thereof then your eyes shall be open and ye shall be as Gods knowing Good and Evil. Which is also true. I think this is Abraham when they become like yeah, that really become like us knowing good from eel says they become like us knowing good for me evil. Like that's the truth. Right the fact that she's not gonna die.

1:55:49 Is the truth because if she just touches it she's fine and the fact that her eyes will be open and she'll become like God knowing good from Evil. He's also true. Um, and then the woman saw when the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was pleasant to her eyes and a tree to be desired to make one wise. She took of the fruit thereof. Everything's fine. And she added each and gave also under her husband with her and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened and they knew they were naked. Um, and so it's it's action serious to me. because, the fact that again, this is this is we've kind of had two sort of theories of the fall and, you know, based off of this He doesn't even have to tell a lie.

1:56:40 Right, you just have to misunderstand. What actually is required of you and then you can be to saved by the truth. Absolutely. No, that's a good point. And so it's Quite get. Grip, straightened out. Of what is actually. Required of me. What is the tradition? What is it? Coming because then you can stand on firm ground be like, okay, I understand. What is required me? I understand what's not and I can tell the difference. Absolutely good point. Okay. Okay. So going back. We love tangent, we love tangents. Um, so you also, we kind of talked about this already, but I want to read a quote with that because the quote annoyed me so bad, I must share it.

1:57:24 Um, you have this misunderstanding of like the fall as evil. So there's this hatred toward Adam and even especially Eve physical nature. Must be bad and blaming Eve and by association all women for the fall, I will slow down. Oh no, hold on. So this comes from tertullian one of the early church fathers and a thing called on the apparel of woman. Where he says, and do you not know that you are each and Eve, the sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in the Sage? The Guild must have necessity live too. You are the devil's Gateway. You are the Unser of that forbidden tree, you are the desert of the Divine Law, you are, she who persuaded him. Whom the devil was not Valiant enough to attack you destroyed so easily God's image, man on account of your desert, that is death.

1:58:13 Even the son of God had to die. So we see yeah, we see with this when you pervert Doctrine and you start changing it into something else. in this case, you have all of women hated by this person because he's like you did this awful thing put us in this awful State Ergo, all women are awful because it's her fault that we are the same and you still will hear it from some people in Christianity. Today of its women's fault that we are where we are. I've heard that argument use like, actually met people where they'll say that to me or they'll say that to someone else. Right. And this is again, just one more thing and then we will log into the results, but, um, Well, okay. So One of the one of the reasons why I think we've drifted from this, understanding the true and proper understanding is losing the physicality of God.

1:59:11 Here's a lovely quote from the Westminster Confession of faith. Sets. Um, will you find me contacts for where? When is this? Yeah, there is, but one only living and true, God, who was infinite and being and Perfection a most pure Spirit invisible without body parts, or passions, immutable immense, Eternal incomprehensible Almighty, most wise Most, Holy most free, most, absolute working, all things according to the counsel of his own immutable, and most righteous will for his own Glory. But most great loving gracious. Merciful long suffering, abundant and goodness and Truth. Forgiving iniquity transgression and sin. The rewarder of them that diligently seek Him and with all most dressed and terrible in his judgments hating all sin and who will by no means, clear the guilty.

2:00:00 So this was written in completed in 1646 by the Westminster assembly, which meant in London from 1643 to 1649. The document was created to reform the Church of England's Doctrine and became foundational for presbyterianism, right? And so this is and there's there's aspects of this in Catholicism as well. Now God is without body parts are passion immutable intense Eternal incomprehensible invisible. Most pure Spirit like well. You Joseph Smith talks about this in the lectures on faith, unless you understand. The nature of God, you cannot have faced necessary for salvation and I just want to share one more quote. Which is from, probably my favorite author of all time, the one and the only Elder CS Lewis.

2:00:48 Who there's a reason why he is the most quoted non-mormon in general conference. Because the dude was Mormon and didn't know it. And I will stand by that statement. So he has a book called, which is one of his laughter known Works called miracles. okay, um, which is about milk Miracles and the idea of Miracles and how um whether or not they exist, I'm kind of how you have to decide whether they do or not before looking for them, because if you're sure, they don't, you're never gonna see any Everything can be explained away. Um, but Also, I wonder the book.

2:01:38 I wouldn't recommend it as much as say scooter letters or some Mere Christianity, but there's one passage that hit me so hard and I have Used it many times since. He's talking about this idea of God as immutable without parts or passions or form. And okay, so I'm just gonna read the quote Um it is clear that there was never a time when nothing existed otherwise nothing would exist now. But to exist means to be a positive something Orally a certain shape or structure to be this and not that the thing which is always existed. Namely God has, therefore always had his own positive character throughout.

2:02:21 All eternity certain statements about him would have been true and others false And from the mere fact of our own existence and Nature's, we already know to some extent, which are which we know that he invents act create after that, there can be no ground for assuming in advance that he does not do miracles. Why then do the mystics talk of him as they do and why are many people prepared in advance to maintain that? Whatever else God may be? He is not the concrete living willing and acting God of Christian theology. I think the reason is as follows Let us suppose a mystical Limpet. So Olympic is a little shellfish, kind of like a barnacle. Yep, let us suppose a mystical Limpet, a sage among Olympics, who raped Envision catches a glimpse of what man is like In reporting it to his disciples. Who have some Vision themselves though? Less than he, he will have to use many negatives. He will have to tell them.

2:03:21 Tell them that man has no shell is not attached to a rock. It's not surrounded by water. And his disciples having little vision of their own to help them do get some idea of man. But then, their come iradite, limpets limpets who wrote history of philosophy and to give lectures on comparative, religion, and who have never had any vision of Their Own. What they get out of the prophetic clip. Prophetic words is simply and solely the negatives. From these on corrected. By any positive Insight, they build up a picture of man as a sort of a more of his jelly. Has no shell. Existing know in particular he is not attached to a rock and never taking nourishment.

2:04:02 There is no water to drift it towards him. And having a traditional reverence from man, that conclude that to be a famous jelly in a dimensionless void is a supreme motive, existence, I'm rejected. As crude materialistic Superstition, any Doctrine, which would attribute to man a definite shape a structure and organs. Our own situation, it's much like that of the aerodynamic Olympics, great profits and Saints have an intuition of God, which is positive and concrete in the highest degree. Because just touching the fringes of his being, they have seen that he is plenitude of life and energy and joy therefore and for no other reason they have to pronounce that he transcends those limitations which we call personality passion change materiality materiality materiality and look like The positive quality and him, which propels he's limitations is their only ground for all the negatives.

2:04:57 But when we come limping after and try to construct an intellectual or enlightened religion, we take over these negatives. Infinite immaterial and passable immutable Etc and use them unchecked by any positive intuition. Each step we have to strip off from our idea of God, some human attribute but the only real reason for stripping off, the human attribute is to make room for putting in some positive Divine attributes. In Saint, Paul's language. The purpose of all, this unclothing is not the idea of God, should we reach nakedness, but that it should be. But unhappily, we have no means of doing the recording. When we have removed from our idea of God, some puny human characteristic, we as merely iradite, or intelligent choirs have no reaches from which just apply that blindingly real and concrete attribute of deity which ought to replace it. Thus at each step in the process of refinement are idea. Of God contains less and the Fatal pictures. Come in an endless silence.

2:05:59 See empty Sky Beyond All Star. A Domo fight radiants And we reach at last near zero and worship anonymous. Yeah, he was more he just didn't know. so, Heart. When people struggle to approach, God because how can you understand something that is doctrinally incomprehensible, how can you relate to something that is formless and just everywhere and nowhere? And Because the reality is so much better. The reality is you have a father? who looks like you and feels like you and was once where you were, And then he grew up and became your God. And That's so much more conducive. To a relationship.

2:06:59 It's so much more conducive to understanding. Your place. And then when you understand that there's this Divine Miss and everyone there's nobility literal nobility because you're the children of the king. Then it changes everything because I'm not just some random creature. I'm a princess right? Father is the big guy. And the random cashier lady whose ringing up, my groceries isn't just some random cast. Really, she's also a princess. That changes the way you everything. Actually no it's great and it should change how we deal with other people, right? Um as I get in the car and get getting, you know, Get stuck in traffic and fed up with people. It should it should change how we see others. Um, whether male or female, it doesn't matter recognizing that Divine parentage should Change how it is. We view people in general.

2:08:00 I just want to make a quick side note on the princess because I absolutely love that. Little Rings. Right now one of them says you are loved and the other says faith over fear because it helps me remember if I can physically see it and a little while ago, I have an embroidery machine. So I embroidered on a sweatshirt, Divine princess daughter of a Heavenly King because it was something that I was struggling to take on as an actual identity. And I'm like, okay if I have it on me, I can remember that. I am a Divine Princess and the woman around me are too, right? I would say one because when we talk about people is, oh, they're a princess, it's got negative connotations, oh, they're so spoiled. Oh, they're so right.

2:08:41 That's everybody to just serve. That's like, no, because that's paired with the idea of certain King was willing to descend below everything because he is noble. And so I think that's a central part of the sort of idea of yeah, people as Noble because if you don't have it, then you become an insufferable prick and nobody wants to be your friend anymore. well said, Good. I might just take that quote and hang it somewhere. Put on a cutie Relief Society signed somewhere and just Don't worry, I'll credit you. Zoe, I'll tell you, we're going to Have that cutie RT, you know?

2:09:34 Calligraphy five, Zoe Erickson. So I'll put it right there. So, one and a half more things before we move on to start how it kind of affects us and impacts her life and everything. And there's also improper view of marriage. Where people start to race up selling celibacy as the best or marriage is throwing out all together and you get promiscuity as people leave the church and you kind of have extreme and doctrines associated with women very easily and quickly get perverted and sexualized. Yes.

2:10:23 Yep. And these things contribute to the misunderstanding and why we don't have the tradition that we ought to have. Absolutely. Okay, you ready? Move on. Yes. Okay under two and a half hours. Okay, that was the biggest section. Yeah, you know. Okay, so results. This is how it affects a mindset and then we'll go into how it shows up and I said manifests and then how it kind of affects worldwide. Yeah. So I think the mental results of the misunderstanding on the proper world of women, the Divinity, the power that goes along with that, rightfully leads to a whole bunch of sort of if you don't understand it, then there's negative repercussions. Yeah.

2:11:06 And here are some of them. Yeah. So you have a hatred toward men. This is where you get the accusations of misogyny of. Oh this is so misogynistic because men are amazing and women are second class. The objectifying of women comes in. This motherhood is second class as well. Sentiments, like why can't I hold the priesthood because I'm just forced to be a mother. Can't my life be more than just motherhood, not realizing how great motherhood is and how important it is. Um, there's a skewed view of the body. There's a shame around body and femininity you, especially see this with menstruation of, oh, that's gross and body dysmorphia as well.

2:11:49 And this shows up into, usually in society when we talk about body, dysmorphia, we're talking about transgenderism. This also shows up with eating disorders as well, because you're not viewing your body correctly and again because the the feminine is the physical. Yeah. Um, in that, that's where you sort of get your body from this, from your mother. Yeah. Right. She grows it. And so when you misunderstand the role and the beauty, that it kind of translates to again, misunderstanding the Holiness of the physical and again, Christianity, don't like the physical body and there's some of that in Mormonism, maybe we don't dislike it, but we don't understand the temple imagery.

2:12:37 You don't understand the Holiness. And so then you don't view body's as. Yeah, as hopeless. Holy. Yeah. Or you do, but you do it in the wrong way. Where you have these unrealistic beauty standards? I feel like wearing ahead. It's right here. Oh, because it's a mindset thing. Oh yeah. Um we'll talk more about beauty standards later too as it shows up manifestation, but this idea of I have to be beautiful because that's all I am. All I am is to be this housewife, at home and yeah. And so when you have this misperception of women, or the skiing and all you are is supposed to be almost like a trophy wife, then you have this body, this morphea as you try to fulfill, this certain Beauty standard and things. And I think part of that, and this is maybe all a little Skippy has.

2:13:32 Well, but um, the the act of, you know, barring the child is Again now, I guess to the tournament because your, your redeeming, your sort of redeeming the physical body and that you're giving the spirit a chance to get a fear of fear of physical body, much like Christ gives us physically a chance to have a spiritual connection. Right? Right? And so when you misunderstand that, there's a whole bunch of things because um, I'm just critique, I love the screwtape letters. I just talked about CS Lewis, but he talks about beauty standards in their of. A lot of them are are such that in having children, you wreck it.

2:14:19 Right in. And screwtape says that this is the work of, you know, the devil's PR team did a really good job. Because if you, if you think that your your value is physical Beauty because it's a place, like you say, the value is a physicality and you missed because you think of that as a physical Beauty and said of the, the capability of giving other Spirits for physical bodies. Then the attention is to how beautiful. And so, you know, oh, I got stretch marks. I've been, you know, my stomach is all saggy because I had children and set of viewing that almost like Stigmata. Like Christ has wounds right, that he keeps As code of a reminder of the sacrifice. Right, right?

2:15:07 And The Feminine. So the men are required to lay down their life for their women, right? For the church like Christ, did that? That's the masculine ideal is the wounds for the sake of, The bride. And then for the women, it's the same thing. But it's for the children of wounds because because My mother and again, Michaela and I are both extremely qualified to talk about this subject. so, so far Look, here's the thing, right? I'll be honest with you, these kind of conversations, scare the crap out of me because I am just one hair's breadth away from saying the wrong thing, all the time, and I realized that this kind of conversation is loaded with landmines, so don't worry about feeling unqualified.

2:15:58 So I will say this is the relationship. from the scriptural from The from the doctor and not. Presuming to speak for my own experiences. I got Oh, but, but look, so in your case and Michaela, I'm sure you have experienced. As I just don't know you as well as I know. Zoe right. But so you've been around for for both of your moms to be having kids, right? You it may not have been you but you were around for that process, right? I've seen the process, right? Exactly. So you're not speaking from just Just purely academic Source.

2:16:41 I guess, I guess it's true but yeah and I'm sure Mikayla's got similar experiences to that. um, you have two younger sister. The other thing I'll say is that Women are naturally more intuitive of that. I have no doubt. So I don't worry about the whole qualified thing. but, The point you were making here is 100% on on point. The one thing, one of the things I love so much about the restoration is just what you brought up right? Where traditional Christianity tends to look at the body as the barrier between you and God, right. You'll never be able to really see him or commune with him because you got this flush in the way Mormonism.

2:17:24 Turns out on his head and said, no, no, you're, you're Humanity can be holy when you Bridal, all these passions and appetites. It's it's a net positive, not a negative in your experience, as a spiritual being. Bridget. the other thing I would say is that, All those things you talked about, right? And it's one of the things that that I find most appalling is the idea that having kids just wrecks things, right? Rex a woman's body and beauty is then gone. Know. In its most Primal sense. We are feeling the measure of our Creation in those moments.

2:18:05 and rather than look at, Stretch marks or something like that. With a negative connotation that should be just like you were talking about the marks of Christ. Those need to be Those need to have a certain sense of reverence attached to them and it it's it becomes incumbent upon from the masculine side of things, right? for me, to raise my boys in such a way to say, don't ever. encroach on something as holy as that with your With an overdose of testosterone, understand what they are bringing them back.

2:18:50 Understand what this is, but this is this is the job of parents, right? And these are conversations that we need to have with our youth, both From the male and the female side of things. as far as like stretch marks or scars or anything like that goes, due to some of my background, I have Scars self-harm scars on my arm. And there's a song by I am they called scars and it's talking about Christ scars but that's not high interpreted it at first. Um, but it says waking up to new Sunrise.

2:19:30 Looking back from the other side, I can see. Now with open eyes darkest water and deepest pain, I want to trade it for anything because my broken is brought me to you. And these wounds are a story you'll use. So I'm thankful for the scars because without them, I wouldn't know your heart and I know they'll always tell of who you are. So forever. I am thankful for the scars. Absolutely. Okay so Joey Joey, Quoted Bob Dylan. Now I'm gonna quote Jimmy Buffett. There's a great song that he wrote for his wife actually. And it was born out of just kind of what we're talking about here, right? Look at what age is done to my body and having kids has done to my body and he's got this great line. Did he said?

2:20:14 Wrinkles only go where the smiles have been. and, Rather than look at those things, as marks that are left over from something traumatic. I think we should make the conscious effort to say, man, you remember that beautiful experience you remember. you know as as a look and maybe I'm a little tender in this because Tanya and I just had a baby and I didn't think I'd have any more once Amber and I were done, We missed something. When we don't look back on those times with a certain amount of fondness and and lovingness. I think this is, you know, when I made of the notes, he did.

2:20:57 Oh yeah. Um yeah, yeah. I think the other the other side of this. Is. There is. A really tragic thing. And again, this is screwtape. I swear half, my theology is from the book and then you have not read the script letters, I guess, here's my club, okay? Basically it's a bunch of letters rich in by a demon who is kind of high up in the demon higher hierarchy. To his nephew. So the one guy named screwtape and his nephew name is worldwide. Warmer just graduated from tempting, college, and got his first human. He's not really sure how to do this whole time thing. So he's riding let us to his uncle and then the letter, she gets response are what's in the book. It sounds silly.

2:21:44 It isn't the top floor books that changed my entire view on the world. because again, it talks about the spiritual reality of things and anyway, but going back to what he said about the beauty standards are crafted to be such that the you know, having children wrecks. Wrecks them. And I think part of this also is, we see this now and this is, this is honestly, the sort of impetus for this podcast because we're both in Utah and You talk culture is So Vain, it is up. Its supposed to be, we're supposed to be Zion. We're supposed to be sort of the stronghold of the Saints and I drive 20 minutes from my house down to Provo and I see three plastic surgery Billboards. In fact, the plastic surgery rates in Utah, rival that of SoCal and Miami.

2:22:41 Which is an atrocity. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know there was another interesting because I in preparation for this I just did some some preliminary kind of quick research there. Not only is the advertising on Park, so, the procedures being done. um, the only one that's that's more than Utah is California for for cosmetic surgery. In addition to that and I think these two go hand in hand. Um I don't know how yet, I got to do some more looking at this and maybe maybe you ladies have have the answer here.

2:23:24 In that same time that we have seen cosmetic surgery, take a dramatic shift. We have all seen A dramatic shift in the amount of abortions that are happening in the state of Utah. Right. Okay, you tall had more abortions this year than Missouri. Let's put that into perspective. That means. You talk with one major metropolitan area. I know Saint George's kind of big, but not really, you can say, That a state. With less population. With less Urban environment. has more abortions than a state like Missouri that has I would say probably three. Major metropolitan areas.

2:24:19 Saint. Louis Kansas City and Jefferson City. And so this problem that you're you're talking about Zoe I think there are so many more things that go along with this than just the Cosmetic thing. I think that this sickness of the soul that has been thrust upon the sisters that we have to contend with now and wrestle with and quite frankly in Utah, Charlie Kirk was right, people forget that the last thing he did Before he was killed, was he called the LDS church and Mormons to repentance, right? It was a very sweet call but it was a call nonetheless where he says, you guys got to get your mojo back.

2:25:01 I used to love how you guys you should have more kids then you could afford, right. I love your missionary effort. This is got to get figured out quickly or you talk. Will become quite frankly. Los Angeles light. I think it already is. I mean there's there's a prophecy on Wednesday will be the wickedest city on the face. I think we're already getting very close and on the abortion thing going back to the idea that Think the the ancient evils. So as restorationists we believe in the ancient good, right. You believe that we have the religion that was given to Adam or we want to you know, and the temple rights that were given to Adam and all of these things and the corresponding side of that, the people don't want to think about is that there's the equivalent on the other side.

2:25:57 Right. Talk about this. Yes, your master Mayhem and then in the Book of Mormon, it's all the same stuff and we have that now. And so there's a story and I believe it's the Book of Enoch with Book of Joshua. So one of this sort of extra biblical texts, yes it is it. Okay? So it's Enoch and that's a whole different conversation. I think that there is a not wisdom in such a, not canon, but in it talks about the evil angels, basically coming down and giving the rights of Darkness to Kane and to his followers and among these things is the knowledge about how to do a abortions. So that the women stay beautiful and Young, Because because part of this whole thing with the beauty standards and this is something that I'm also very passionate about is it is because the devil twist things, right? All of his stuff, he doesn't actually have anything new. It's all just the counterfeit perverted versions of the light. And part of this is there's this quest for eternal life, right? It is consumed Humanity from the beginning, right? One of our very oldest stories.

2:27:10 We have is the Epic of Gilgamesh and in the Epic of Gilgamesh, Quest for eternal life, right? Little mesh is best friend gets killed and then he spends the rest of his life or rest of the story. Trying to find this plane that will get him eternal life because he realizes that he's going to die. That's, that's the very beginning. That's the curse. You're going to die now, but that always means before that, we were going to. And so We are internal beings and we can feel that. We are part in US knows that were supposed to live forever. And we're not living forever. And so, the proper way of going about this is to say well we have a turtle life in Christ Jesus, we're going to die but there's another life. I'm in that, we are turtle beings are going to live forever.

2:27:57 But the improper version is the Quest for eternal life and eternal youth here. And now in these corrupted bodies, and you see this all over from the sort of the Philosopher's Stone, right? The idea that all the Alchemy in the Middle Ages is around trying to make the Philosopher's Stone from which you make the elixir of life. Or, and so that I see this in all of the plastic surgery and the boat talks. So, the face lifts and the one who abort having children, because you're trying to stay young and beautiful, you're trying to force the eternal life. Without realizing where it actually comes from. And when you're actually going to get it, How you attain it, right?

2:28:40 How do you attain it? Um, and it's very interesting that once again it's it's the enemy of assault. Right, the adversary who's taking something that's very innate that's buried. Within each, one of us that quest for eternal life. I don't care what culture it is you can go back and look at all the cultures. They all have some recipe for attaining it and Once again, he's taken that something that's innate and beautiful within the human experience at quest for immortality and it's been Twisted, right? It's been remolded into something that it doesn't belong to.

2:29:25 Write. this is again, it's We try to. Greece house without going through. Christ. And in this, we're cursed. Absolutely. How much money? Must be spent, how much? Yeah. Yep. We look at all of it, right? And I can't help, but Wonder What are the real conditions of the marriage is involved, right? What is it? And look, you ladies can correct me here if I'm wrong on this. But I look at a married woman who maybe has three or four kids who feels the need to go get plastic surgery.

2:30:11 Is she not getting the validation? She needs from her husband? Is there a sense of insecurity within the marriage? That is pushing for this just a thought. It must be. Others gift. Um, High School, graduation gift to her sister's was breast implants. And plastic surgery and it was pushed very much within the house of like this is the way you're supposed to look. This is the way you're supposed to be, and this is what you need to do. And so sometimes it's sometimes it is a merging and then insecurity and not.

2:30:54 Feeling that love or feeling beautiful from the husband. Sometimes it's pushed on by mothers by Friends by society and yeah, so it's either that. Yeah and if it is within a marriage and either that your husband Isn't loving you, the way he supposed to. because, You know, I think I I very there are definitely people and you know, once the wife's Beauty Fades, he's worried, he's going to go off and cheat or he makes comments about oh well. So you know all in tagging wrinkled and all that. Um or the other option is, I'm sure that I'm sure that this is some of it is if you want validation from outside of your marriage not necessarily to the extent of an affair but just Instagram or yeah.

2:31:45 And and then they're not going to love you unless you are physically beautiful. And so then, There's also we live in a world where the most beautiful people in the world are plastered everywhere for us all to see and people who have had work done to hide in their beauty and that's not normal, that didn't used to happen. It used to be um, Taylor's of the sea. I can't remember in magnetic from quotes, a book and I think it's Heroes of the Sienna. It describes. It was not something to see. It's another classical literature but and it's just driving this woman and how everybody loves her and how amazing and beautiful she is. And then later on in the book, it's like, Yeah, she's been but like, her nose isn't quite right. And her ears are a little different, but she was a beautiful because of who she was and how she acted. This reminds me of Amelia for Vanity Fair. It might have been Vanity Fair.

2:32:47 Yeah, because I know one of them, they caught a Dorset from toys of the sea and then there was another one, it's remember, no. It's in its Vanity, Fair by William sat Factory. Yeah. you know, I think all so, Like I do want to carve out of space here a little bit, which is in. This only comes from kind of a personal experience, I had Again, I had a guy that worked for me and his wife was in a car accident. I mean, bad car accident. And she got really scarred up. I mean really scared up bad and This guy was like, he was a great husband, he really was. Um, so that wasn't the thing.

2:33:36 But this woman just didn't feel right, she had this one massive scar that just kind of went right through here. And it really messed with her right to the point that affected her. Her confidence in that sort of thing. And she really wanted to get the work done. And I remember, he said, Okay, I just don't feel like it's necessary, right? I feel like, she's, you know, she should know that I love her and, and that, you know, that should be enough. But she did get the procedure and afterwards. She got some of that confidence back, right? And so that's one place where I kind of looked at it and went Is it all bad, right? I mean, this was obviously coming from her a place in her, right?

2:34:22 That wasn't external. It was one of those things that she felt not I don't know. I, in my opinion, I think that's probably if you're going to use Plus Insurance. That's probably kind of the scenario, right? Oh, I don't think everything like that. Like, I know some people who say like, Makeup is of the devil and if you wear it, it's a sin. And it's like, okay, whoa, let's take a deep breath. There's studies done on how How if you dress certain ways? It affects my right. So like if you wear a suit, or if a woman wears a dress or things like that, she often acts and believes that she's more confident. Where if you walk around and sweat, then you don't carry yourself, you tend to be more slouched. You tend to be less confident, things like that and so I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong. The question is more motivation and are you setting unrealistic standards and things like that?

2:35:19 Second that was saying I am very glad that the plastic surgery like we have things. We can do now, which you can never do before. And like, I have a sister who had a cleft lip Right? When she was born hasn't prepared, you can tell did a little bit of a scar but and I think that things like that or if you get an accident, like there's good to be done with all of this. And I don't think that saying, oh, I want to look normal. Yeah. Is a sin? Yeah, I don't think that sort of surgery is gonna send, sometimes people do things and there's even a distinction, um, in Insurance codes which is the most. Holy document first but basically, if a plastic surgery is reconstructive, so, one example, being fixing a scarf or facing a cleft lip or somebody has a mastectomy for breast cancer, like reconstructing that Normally insurance has to pay for it versus if it's just elective because oh I want to be a job. Oh, I want a facelift. and I think that, It's a good distinction to make.

2:36:29 Yeah, and just give insurance companies a compliment very sarcastically, but yes. Okay, I just had to check. All right, I was doing some researchers recently, um, on like grinding teeth because there's a thing. Oh, I forget what it's called, but there's a disorder where like, you grind your teeth a lot in your sleep every night and it causes the shoes on. One of the things that they'll do for that is actually both talks and Jax and to help with it so that you don't grind your teeth that much. And so all of these like, There's God doesn't make things just to make things. There's usually a use for that.

2:37:09 It's all about wisdom. And how are you using them are using them correctly things like that and everyone's case is going to be individual and so like making a blatant statement and going plastic surgeries bad for everyone always is not good. It's go to God about it. What's your motivation? Why do you want to do it? Absolutely 100% And one of the things one of those examples something could be considered plastic surgery, but I think you have the people who are you know, 600 pounds they get gastric bypass surgery lose a bunch of weight and then they have loose skin.

2:37:50 And as I flapping around and getting irritated and people got that removed and I think that's probably good but it does it again. It's where do you where do you think your beauty comes from? Where do you think about comes from? Do you think it comes from me external or do you think it comes from the internals? There's a scripture first Peter 3. um Three three and four, which is do not let your adornment be external the braiding of hair and wearing of gold ornaments, but let it be the secret person of the heart and increment of the quiet and Mild spirit. Absolutely. That's a great quote. Yeah and so I think, I think what we're trying to say is more To that, you should realize.

2:38:33 that the value or the beauty, um, Your value is don't be though it being physical does not. Come from with the world says beautiful. Yeah. On your percent and remember, the worth of souls is great in the side of God. If you are attaching any of these physical external things to your worth, you might want to read evaluate. Something's On your percent, which look Society is done, right? That I'm not breaking any news there. It's, it's absolutely the direction, it's gone. And If if the plastic surgery that was getting done was just like we were talking about restorative there'd be a lot less of them out there. Um The fact that there's so many.

2:39:17 Tells you what you need to know. Yeah, that this is more about vanity. This is more about a an aesthetic. That is portrayed that I'm sorry is not normal at, all right? Um, You know. For every one person that had wins pardoning expression, wins the genetic Lottery, and everything is like, the golden ratio. There is the rest of us where, it's not, and And so we need to understand that. Yeah, there are some people that just kind of want, you know, won the lottery, right? And then that's not the norm though. And for too long, I've seen the exception be portrayed as the norm to the detriment of a lot of people men and women. So what other just things about Utah and Utah standards because it's it's a criticism that often gets leveled at the church by opponents of Mormonism.

2:40:23 So I am I living a really funny sort of limbo being restorationist or more and not being all the yes because a lot of the criticisms of Les church. I feel like I think art fairly valid and we've made some today. Yeah. Um and part of this is because whenever you have a place or a culture, whether or whether it's monogamy only, Merit is valued and you have a substantial imbalance in gender ratios. Then there becomes problems. So want to, you know, This is this is a sort of secular example but in like I was watching this thing about a sewing up, I don't.

2:41:09 But in Estonia the ratio of men women is pretty skew. There's a lot more women than their arm and For whatever reason, I'm not gonna try and talk about Estonian demographics. I'm very, very not qualified to do that. But oh, what are the things that the spirit was saying person was saying, is that women will get dolled up to the nines just like go to the grocery store. Um, because there's this intense competition right in the LDS church. There's an article from time called datanomix which got published in 2015. And it talks about something which is we see in Seattle, different cultures. But typically religions have more women than men in them. This is the very standard and you can why is a whole different topic?

2:41:57 I have heated opinions on it, but we're not gonna get into it because then this podcast will not end. Wanna go. They're so bad. You have no idea. it's Church according to this article from time, which As of 2015. There were 150 warm, and women forever 100, Mormon men in the state of Utah. 150 women for every 100 men. if only that religion would have come up with a way to track, so an ornament and say, Three women. Queens. Up and being worthy.

2:42:40 Like be good enough to get married and everybody was to get married. There would still be. A third of the women. Who they're just not meant for. Which is a tragedy because again, it's a religion that places even greater than normal emphasis on marriage, then, just Christianity because you have to be married to be exalted. And there's a lot of angst around this, and I, I see. So my peers who are LDS and I'm like, I'm so sorry, because statistically, a third of you are not gonna get married to Mormon men. Think that's just basic math or no saddle for someone and who they want, otherwise sell.

2:43:21 Well, even just Mormon know, I mean maybe they'd marry, you know, you marry a Baptist or whatever, and that's is what it is. But as far as even, that's not even talking about oh, some of those men. And some of those women are not marriageable. It's not Just net numbers, three of them will not be able to get married. I'm so what this does is it creates an intense amount of competition, right? Because if you aren't up to the game, if you aren't doing all of the things you're not gonna get picked. And again, that is the question of a woman's heart and my lovely m, i desirable am I chose him and the brutality is most like a good chunk of the World Bank? Because I just not enough men.

2:44:10 Oh, I'm sorry. I apologize. Go ahead, Dave. I was gonna ask Michaela you just came out of the LDS church. Do you find the lived experience matches the statistics as though we just brought out. I have heard that there are like as far as convert rates in my generation that starting to switch but mostly yeah. I went to YSA because I was forced to go to the YSA, but yeah, there's a lot of women and a lot of the guys there like even talking to the other women, at why I say activities, they're like most of the guys here. I want to consider dating because they're not dateable, but you do have more women at least showing up then men. So there is a serious issue, right? And so and the funny thing is, so this is obviously the LDS church, it's only right.

2:45:13 Um At least one at a time, you get divorced remarried but I one time just one partner. One spouse. You can kind of conceal. Then there's the extra women. You can kind of contrast this with Society, like the flds or poly is a requirement. Almost a requirement. Almost the same level as the monogamy is. Are you have to be polygamous to be exalted, and my personal opinion. I know that there are some, some statements from Brigham Young about requiring me in order for Azul to happen. I have mixed feelings about that because mathematically, it doesn't work. Here and um, then you get things Lost Boys, where young men get kicked out because there's not enough women.

2:45:55 Um, so I think somewhere in the middle and then you also have from Brigham Young a statement. Sometimes people forget where he said that in the Celestial Kingdom, there will be men with many wives men with one wife and then men with no wives and so it really depends on how you're defining exaltation. Yeah there. Anyway, that's I think it's not a different topic but um it's, it's again when you have a society, like the LDS Church, There's actually a women, there's intense competition and this feeds into all of these Beauty stands, we Beauty stands. We beauty standards?

2:46:35 We were talking about. And so I think again it's a situation where there's a legitimate problem, but the solution isn't necessarily to disavow at all, it's to go deeper in to the religion. Whereas if you have a society in which polygamy is allowed, it reduces all the pressure. because, You couldn't you married man, the men don't take out of the day before. Right. Um, and and then even if you maybe aren't Entirely beautiful. You still get a chance to get married as a woman. Um, so an example of this, I have a sister who is going to be in a wheelchair. Um, and if we were LDS, you probably wouldn't end up getting married.

2:47:29 And, you know, it's a harsh reality, but like, if you were gonna, if you're gonna choose between a woman who's able to walk on a woman, who's in the wheelchair, you're gonna choose a woman able to walk like if it does just the choice there, I don't go. The truth be told unless you borrowing of voice from heaven or whatever. You don't want to, you don't want, you can partner to have problems, right? And so, but because we are in the now, in a closure that allows like me, Chances Are Much Higher and I think that it would also sort of heal some of the toxicity. Is saying okay, well, we will allow this. And reduce all the pressure.

2:48:15 That makes a lot of sense. Makayla anything you want to add to that part? They're really is. A jealousy that woman have kind of naturally toward each other? and I believe with what I looked into what I read and stuff like that, I do believe that when plural marriage is left correctly, it can help the remedy that hopefully like you're working on that wall before that ever happens just bad in general but It can help to grow love and charity and kind feeling. Something's like that. 100%.

2:49:02 Okay, so let me, let me ask a question, that's kind of akin to this because it's something that I have been. Quite frankly concerned about for a while and it goes kind of along this. It doesn't have to do with plural marriage but does have to do with marriage. And to make this point, I'm going to tell a quick story. Are we running up against time for either of, you know? I'm sorry. So. Okay, I when I left the LDS church, I left from a leadership position. I was in a leadership position in my ward. and, um, there was one thing.

2:49:45 Can't say it was a straw that broke the camel's back but it was definitely one of the things that was really bugging me. Up until that time, I had been a weekly Temple of tender. I went to the temple every Saturday morning without fail. And one morning I walked in and there used to be a covenant in the temple. In the oldest church where a man would Covenant with God, and then a woman would cover it with her husband. And then, that was just removed. and, When? the, the guy who Was my stake president. Or maybe you're maybe a member of the state presidency. I can't remember.

2:50:28 Anyway, he were, he was one of the higher ups at Bonneville communication. Which is the the church's media arm essentially, right? If you watch General Conference, you know, this is a production of Bonneville Communications and he said. So what's seems to be the problem? You know, he's like I'd like to take one more opportunity and to your question. I'm like I'm down with that, right? I'm not trying to be Storm out or something like that. So we got talking and he said, what's one of the things that really bugs you? And I'm like, quite frankly, it's one of the big things that that has really given me pause is The removal of whole covenants out of the temple and he said well which one now explained it to him.

2:51:12 He's like oh well brother Sanders I got great news for you, I can explain this one. It's like sure I'm anxious to hear. And he said for the first time ever, it looks like that. Within about 10 years, we're going to have more single members. Then married members in the church. And I said, okay? And he said yeah, when this was brought up, I had overheard that the brother and had said that maybe it's just time to to adjust the ordinances to match. And I remember I said so let me ask you this. If men were have, if men and women were having a hard time, living up to the law of Chastity, would that get removed as well? Like, isn't The Prudent thing to figure out? Why young men and young women aren't getting married. and it just kind of ended there, but my question is What? And maybe this is more from a Caleb, but you might have some insight here too.

2:52:12 Zoe, what is preventing marriages from happening right now? What what is it within the church that we see? And and I want to be careful. This isn't just a church thing. This seems to be across the Spectrum. What what's preventing people from? From making those covenants, one to another and and getting married. I think. Comes. Side Society. Like I was talking to a co-worker one time a couple years ago and I was talking about how like I want to be married and everything like that and right now I just turned 22. So I was about 20, maybe 19 at the time and she is a mother of like three or four children that I was talking to. And she's like, you're only 20 years old. What are you talking about?

2:53:12 That's way too young. Like my daughter. Got married at like 23 and that was still too young. And so there's this outside culture that's kind of pervaded where it's, I need to, and some of this comes from feminism too but I need to have my whole life set up. I need to make sure I'm working the job and living out on my own and doing all these other things, before I can get married. And then I'm going to add him into my life. and, It doesn't quite work that way. And when you, when you build up your entire life and then you get married, you can have some issues. And conflicts. Because now you have to Change.

2:53:54 How you've been living? And you've kind of cemented this thing in place part of the two. I have some questions. About why I say words, because I've heard people argue on, like, how great YSA Awards and how bad they are. I'm questionable on them right now because there's been studies that have shown it. So like, for example, if I have, if I'm in a group with five female friends and none of my friends are married, or have kids and much, much less likely to get married and have kids. If there's other women in my friend group, who are married and or have kids, I am much more likely to get married and have kids and we've put All the single adults together into Ward, which is like great because then you know everyone's single and you can go find someone to marry that way. But there's also this well, now, everyone you're social involved with is single and you're going to be the odd one out, you're going to have to go find a new friend group in new activities and things like that.

2:54:58 If you get married, I think part of that as well. Oh, there's a couple of things. What she was saying, you know, marriage has gone from a foundation to a cat Stone. Oven instead of like, okay, I'm very I'm gonna build my life so I'm gonna build my life and married is the last thing. And then but then maybe you don't feel like your life. Maybe you have struggles like oh, I'm not ready. Hmm. To get married going on with the single word as well. I was never in a while I say a word but I have lots of friends who were slash are And I think what she's saying is, absolutely right, because you take these people out of the context of all my families in this world. Oh, here are the people that I sort of grew up with and like, oh, we're gonna stick them all together.

2:55:41 This should be fine. And a lot of, I think the most healthy relationships come from being like the people around you being like Oh well my you know, my husband's brother. he's a really great guy, like maybe you get along really well or oh, well, you know, my brother has his friend and I was thinking about you and because the people around, you know, you and have no you and are able to be like, oh this is a good idea and maybe do some sort of matchmaking or If not matchmaking, then sort of nudging. Yeah, right. And when you are in a YSA Ward, none of the people, none of those people are your own age from your own board.

2:56:24 You know? I mean I went to the YSA in the city I lived in since I was like six and I knew all of like, two or three people In the ward. So wow. Yeah because one of them she would come a kid. Like my best friend she was supposed to go to a different ways. But I dragged her with me um because her Bishop is like you have to go to YSA. So I dragged her with me and then there was like, one person that I knew from when I was like 10 that was in the ward and then someone from my home Ward because she was supposed to be like the liaison between the family Ward and the YSA. And so she would show up vacation early.

2:57:06 Gotcha. Yeah, thanks for that. I was just curious. Yeah. So We'll have. So, positive effects. Yeah, so positive effects of. So when you have correct understanding of what Mormonism teaches about the divine feminine, you can grow a love for femininity and he stopped hating men because you understand what the feminine role is and what the masculine role is. And that there is a difference there, but it doesn't mean, either one is better than the other and it's okay because that's one of the things we fall into is. A lot of people in the world that they either fall into the like men are better or the women are better.

2:57:50 Like I saw a thing recently where it's like, Oh, I'm not a feminist because I don't believe men and women are equal because I believe women are better. And that that is a Pretty prevailing ideology amongst the newest wave of feminism that I've seen. And so you don't have that if you understand the rules and everything and you're not threatened by the masculine because you're not trying to take the men's roles and men aren't trying to take your roles because you understand, where you are supposed to be biologically and the vinyl and understanding men and women are equal even though they're different because they're equal but not Equitable kind of thing, right?

2:58:36 Um, there's also the software that comes with it, Doctrine, covenants, section, 1810. Remember, the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. And so you're worth is more based in your identity as a daughter of God, rather than all these things of the world. Magnetic femininity has a quote that says, it is so important that as women are subconscious and conscious minds are fully filled with the belief and understanding that being a woman is good. um, because there are a lot of people who do have this view of what we live in a world where masculinity is valued within women and femininity is valued within men, and So sometimes the woman do have to be told like it is good to be a woman like it's not anything against you. And then it's also okay to follow and being a follower. Like we talked about earlier isn't doesn't mean that you're lesser than and anyway, Um, so because we have redeemed the body we realize that the body is beautiful. Magnetic femininity says that is what the obsession with female beauty is really about women's taking care of their own bodies. Because a lot of beauty standards, the roots of them is based off of biology.

3:00:01 So like in the 1700s, you see false hips up here because it was viewed that if you had wider hips, then you the New York child bearing would be safer. You were less likely to die. How comfortable like patience if you had white or hips things like that? And so if you realize that beauty is really about the way that you act and taking care of yourself and your body and viewing your body as sacred, but not an object. The same book also says we don't have to be physically. Beautiful. We don't have to be physically, beautiful, to be important, to be worth, to be charismatic, to be magnetic.

3:00:43 In our Beauty. Truly is the most important thing, and the core of that is vulnerability. And like it's kind of cliche to say like interview is what truly matters. But it's true and like if you're genuine in your vulnerability and in your feminine and being kind and loving. If it's genuine, people will tell and it will come out and it is beautiful. Um there's also not the shame same, shame around our body. If we truly understand how beautiful and sacred our body's are and then so much of our Lives as women have to do with body's. We have we create bodies every month, we have to deal with menstruation.

3:01:29 So we really have to take care of her body's in certain ways. We nurture and take care of bodies as we take care of our children and our husband. Women are generally the ones in charge of like making meals and housekeeping and things like that, and it is beautiful, and it's divine and its own right. Um, there's also the connection to Divinity because we know that we have a mother who loves us. We know that God is the father and the mother, they trained our one, um, not just a father and that we can be exalted to and then we can pray, knowing that someone is actually listening and cares. We're not praying when I'm morphis blob out in The Ether where we're praying to a father who loves us.

3:02:13 We can also see the beauty and motherhood, the value of motherhood. We can see what our mothers do and did for us. The sacrifice of motherhood is beautiful. We can see the creation aspect of motherhood as divine we can be vulnerable, we can be vulnerable with God, we can be vulnerable with our family and our friends. Being a woman involves a lot of feeling and vulnerability and we can safely express it when we're living for me. Understand What God actually wants for us, and what? Are actual divine nature is and that and we can see that we do have a place and God's plan.

3:02:56 and, That's the sort of good. What comes of a proper understanding? Yeah. um, but further, what comes of A sort of native understanding, or when things get misunderstood is. you know, if you, if you try now to talk about the divine feminine in most Restorations, you'll get shut down so hard. Because I got this fear of. Idolatry or the other side of that is almost verging on the occult and you know, God is worship. And again, going back to the fact that never really stopped worshiping all of these pagan gods, they just took different names. And I see, I see both of these things within the culture at large at least here in Utah.

3:03:48 And with the Les Church of their people who are very sort of out there and oh, well, God is a woman and he construct the patriarchy and All of that jazz. And then there are some people who said, well that's heretical. We don't talk about mother and Heaven. It's, you know, and then there's sort of fear of witches. That and ends up being eventually harmful, because waking witching is whatever is a feminine. Mmm. And yep. Again, I think that there are roots in truths because a lot of times women are more spiritually, sensitive, or closer to God. And so it just needs to be understood and applied.

3:04:35 In the correct in a correct light. And who are you going to? Oh yeah. Who are you going? The witches are generally going to Gaia or Ishtar or a straw or things like that. Where we do have access to God and his power in our lives and so we should be going there. But again, if you don't understand that you that there is sort of feminine side of the Gospel, then when you feel the call for it because it's in you because it's true you believe like an incredible like Yves, thuries incorrect beliefs even believe that touching the fruit will kill her. Right. So then she's able to be sled. People believe that there is no place in the gospel or that none of this has a place in the gospel. And so then wanting on the incorrect beliefs, but feeling the call, they turn to all of what Mahalo Makayla was saying. Um, which is a tragedy.

3:05:34 Yeah. um, Another thing that comes of sort of the negative understanding both for men and for women was a negative understanding. I mean, misunderstanding, um, is actual misogyny. You know, I I know men who like, oh well, because I'm a man, I'm so much better. I'm so much Holier. I'm so much closer to God, and these things are false and they're a sense of pride. Which is unfortunate. Come on the other side. That you also have a superior superiority, complex, within women, where they flip the script.

3:06:20 And they're like, well actually women are better because we can do this in the US. And it causes issues that way too. Again, I'm saying that more and more in some places as a reaction to the other. Yeah. Yeah, there's a misunderstanding which causes something bad and then the reaction to it swings Avengers on the other direction. you know, and I think that's Oh, I think that's something that we're seeing come up again and again in the conversation is this wild swing and extremes. Right, there's there's this idea. Like like you and Michaela were just talking about, right? We have Misogyny on one side that says you know you're a woman you're obviously not as intelligent just sit down and let them do the thinking right? Then on the other side you have women who are trying to grab that same thing, right?

3:07:11 And so you have this wild swing and extreme and ultimately, as I think it is with most things, the truth is right there in the middle, right? This recognition that certainly within Mormonism and it's one thing that's that's always baffled. My mind a little bit, baffled me a little bit. Is that in my mind, Mormonism? Has enough doctrinal. Guard rails around it so to speak. To say look, you're both people. So let's get that out of the way first, right? You're both in need of a tone man. You both have your very crap that you're going to bring to this marriage because of either the way you were raised or how you, you know, some life experiences that too has to be worked out but understand neither the man nor the woman can get to where they ultimately want to be within Mormonism without each other. And so, it's this.

3:08:07 As as as we see the rest of society, go through these wild swings and you could see this even in politics, right? The left versus the right where there's wild swings, right? Back in the old days, there wasn't much difference, those things continue to get polarized and I think it's the, I think it's our job. Those who are awake to say, okay, we don't have to play this game, right? We don't have to have these wild swings. Michaela. You said something else. I wanted to jump on here which is Even though we've been talking about hey you don't need plastic surgery for vanity. Those sorts of things, there's nothing wrong either with taking care of your body, right? Too often one of the things and going back to Wild swings, right?

3:08:56 Um, I remember I was talking to a friend of mine who, you know, I he's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm just getting ready to go to the gym and he's like, why do you engage in such a vein activity? And I was like, what? And he's like, well, yeah, I mean what, why else would you be there other than to, you know? Try to look better and be Vain and I was like to be healthy, right? Like lift heavy things that makes me feel better. Um, and he, you know, he couldn't understand that. and so we've got somehow, we've got to get back to kind of that place in the center where we recognize Truth for what it is and use those Doctrine or doctrinal guardrails have been bequeathed to us to to be able to have healthier relations between men and women and One child. Got to another.

3:09:46 I think it takes a peculiar kind. Of courage to hold the middle. Yeah um and I think that in doing so you end up catching Flack from a lot of everybody. From the two extremes, you're not going to be liked by, anybody know. And I think that there should be a certain level of pride in the good way about that. Because I had a conversation, a couple days ago that was really kind of stuck with me talking about how often times.

3:10:31 Again, there's all these extremes and so to be able to walk middle, is everybody hates you. And so maybe that should be a blessing. They may most people hate your guts. Once again, that's going on a Relief Society. A scriptures. Were called treasure. That were peculiar treasure and that word, and Hebrew is segula. And in Beloved bridegroom, by Donna Vinson, which is an amazing. But highly recommend, I said the foundation and she talks about this and she's like, one of the so. So Google was a term used for by a husband for his wife. But it was also used by Kings for their most prized treasure. That this was a treasure that they would keep in the vault to kind of keep safe from everything and it was supposed to be a peculiar treasure.

3:11:23 We're not going to fit in anywhere, but that's okay, because we're in, God's Kingdom, right? Got he says, like, when they hate, you were Joy because they hate me first. Yeah, right. And So anyways, so I think that being able to sort of stand on the doctrine and say okay there is a middle way. and I think that, Um, I should should clarify because sometimes there's not a middle way, right? Some issues in the middle way and some of them, there's not and I think that sometimes in our quest, for sort of tolerant because the the idea of the middle is good when you have wickedness on both extremes.

3:12:05 Right? Exactly. Yep. Um, and a lot of times, there is weakness on both extremes when you zoom out far enough, but sometimes it doesn't look like there is so one example is Something that I'm very sort of passionate about we brushed on this sort of abortion thing earlier. There's no middle ground between not abortion and no. Um, and trying to attempting to walk a Middle Road, is good to be completely harmful. Um, but maybe if you zoom out and there's, you know, abortion once said and and something else on the other. So this is talking about sort of the, the swing between promiscuity and the sort of Adoration of celibacy, right? There's a Middle Road there.

3:12:52 But if you look at the promise you ready, there's no Middle Road within the promise you. Yeah. So I think a lot of times you need to zoom out far enough to find. Okay, here are my extremes I can walk in between them. But that does not mean compromising with the wicked because then you just contaminate yourself and are good for not. So compromise with terrorists we did we do not negotiate with terrorists. We all say that and then we all become parents. The first time I say random story quick Story the first time I heard that saying was some post somebody had made about the joys of parenting.

3:13:34 And she said she'd always tell like four year old daughter far five year old like we I don't negotiate with terrorists. If she's demanding candy or later bedtime, whatever and then one time it's called to the school because her daughter had been involved in bullying another child and she was like, why did you do this and her daughter's like we don't negotiate with terrorists. I don't know who that kid is but I love that kid already. She was like ha. Alright, so sometimes you write yeah. So continuing on, unless you get, go ahead with manifestations. That of know.

3:14:17 I didn't want to talk about this. Oh, oh, were right here right now. Oh okay. Yeah. So we're good. Yeah, yeah, I yeah, okay. Um, Part of it is sexual issues, too kind of going with, what we were just saying about adoration is all the sea versus promiscuity where we have a declining Birthright due to lots of different factors celibacy, doesn't help. Abortion is not helpful either. I just say, well yeah, as we are both members of the lovely Generation Z, I have very very strong opinions on abortion because the truth is out of our generation about in the sort of 27 to 30% range.

3:15:07 Never got to be bored. Yeah. There is a video. I saw a little bit ago from, he's probably like, early 20, something guy and he's like, I just realized today. How many People how never had life because of abortion. And what if my soulmate was one of those abortions And he's like so many, right? Yeah, I mean every table, every table of 10 people would have three empty chairs. that's, just in just an our Generation and that's That is so boring. Yeah, that is mass murder on a scale. Never before seen.

3:15:48 That's black play levels of death. Yeah, look I've said this before, and I'll stand on this quote. If abortion is murder, which I believe it is, we've made the Nazis look like working. Yeah. Um that's just the truth of it. I I don't know how else to get around it it is it is absolutely Devastating. You know numbers? Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. He he's got rookie numbers for sure. So, anyway, don't, um, you have promised Beauty on the rise World telling woman that it's empowering to sleep with. Whoever you also have pornography addiction On The Rise. You see this mostly in men but you are seeing it. Pop up.

3:16:33 More in women, you also have all the only fans that a lot of women do. And then you also have lgbtq issues as well because you do have people. I do believe there are people who are naturally born with that attraction and that is a great trial for them. However, I do know that there are women who actively choose to be lesbian because they hate men are have had so many bad experiences with men. Um, but like it's not and then you also have it encouraged and applauded today. So you have a like one of the highest demographics of trans youth is actually teenage or preteen girls who have autism because they don't fit in anywhere.

3:17:23 And if they identify as trans or lgbtq or whatever, then they now have a community that they can fit in and they're applauded an adored and it's a major issue. There's a book or a documentary about this. I forget what it's called but Somebody did some serious research on this and it's a major, it is a major issue and look as I've looked at that issue. I see it being a social contagion, Contagion on some point, right? As Society has moved to a place where Like look, I got weird ideas so you bear with me. I think one of the reasons that that we see some of this on the rise is because of the the, the idolization of the victimhood. Yeah.

3:18:14 Um, We don't any longer have Heroes. That did heroic thinks instead he rose or all victims. And when that happens, when victimhood becomes a social capital by with you you trade Social standing that's that's a problem. And so that tends to feed into that social contagion right to be heroic? I must be the victim. Yeah, and that, that has something to do. The other thing I'm going to say is this, the human mind is a weird instrument, right? And it will go through phases, um, when I was seven.

3:18:55 I really wanted to be a pirate. Fortunately, my parents didn't gouge out my eye and cut off the leg, right. Um, but Like and again, it seems like everything's an overreaction as well, right? Instead of saying to your kid, know you really not, you know, a girl or you know, whatever now the parents are like. Well, you're oppressed. Right. We gotta do whatever we can to get you out of that. There's there's a lot there. I'm sorry to take us down that side. I was talking to a woman a while ago who's older than me and growing up. She was a tomboy and and she also had lots of sexual abuse and her history and she we were talking about this whole issue and she's like if it was push as much today as it was when I was your age I would have transitioned in a heartbeat and she's like I'm so glad that it wasn't a thing in my time. Because I'm so grateful, I never did that but she's like, if it had been I would have been one of the like number one people. because, I think I think another of just part of it is, you know, you hear about the death of the Tomboy. And again, because this idea of femininity as either weak or as it being an aesthetic space thing, Then, if you have a child who doesn't enjoy traditionally feminine, pastimes, or would like to have her hair short and

3:20:27 wear cargo pants that? Oh, you must actually be a boy. And what that really is, is just a deep insult to femininity of saying, oh, well it's impossible for you to like the rough housing and still be a woman. It's impossible for you to enjoy cars, you know, and want to play with the boys and still be a woman. So therefore you're actually a boy. Right. No, it's it's true and I, Part of this is just understanding people, right? And loving them. For who they are and helping them feel comfortable in their own skin. And because of the demonization, and I'm gonna say it both ways of both the feminine and the masculine. We find ourselves in some pretty weird predicaments. Yeah.

3:21:27 It's quite amazing. Honestly, like Hats off the devil. He got really good work. I I worked in an office once where we had a guy who was divorced three times and swore women were the problem. Same office. I had a woman. There was a woman there who had been forced twice and swore men were all the problem. And I remember I was talking one of the guys at work. I'm like ever wondered what a date between the two would look like. Just said him up and let him go. But no, it's it's a thing, right? And we gotta get past demonizing each. Other's god-given, right? You know, I shouldn't say rights, but identity's, if, if we want to heal this thing at all, understanding of, you know, misunderstanding.

3:22:27 All of this. Is. And yelled out where this? Yeah. But I think I I think the biggest thing is, there's okay. So there's a lot of again, this is sort of extreme of both unhealthy and so one of them, a lot of the, a lot of the modern world is not really value musty. All right. Um, and or if you use it as a present? Yeah. So everyone, you look at Red Carpet and there's bare backs, and bare breasts, and all, just all of the things, right? It's not Valued or sometimes on the other side. Um and so of course A lot of times Christian culture, you get this idea of oh well your body is distracting. Oh well, the men can't control themselves. You better cover up otherwise something's gonna happen to you. And now it's a problem.

3:23:25 I think that's I think that's all so a problem because Either way and this is okay. This is this is good to be this is a loaded term but I'm going to use it anyway with this Claver. I think what we need to do is decent hermen. From the modesty thing. I want to make one note before we get into that. Oh one second. I didn't hear what she said to do. What we need to decenter men from the modesty debate and I wanted to find them. I mean, I want to make one, no just because there is so much talk in this debate of like men are so gross and evil because they sexualize us all the time and then like men also there are men out there who are like, oh, yeah.

3:24:16 She totally deserved it. Um, I do want to make a note on not every man is sexualizing every woman ever. But we also do need to be cognizant of the fact that men are visual creatures and to be kind toward that while they're still responsible for their own thoughts. And their actions and everything and you did not deserve it if you decided to walk around and shorts or whatever. I'm but also be cognizant of like men are visual creatures. So what I'm saying as far as I just want to make that note so that we can maybe get some women stopping like oh my gosh, I hate men because they sexualize women all the time because that's not true. So I think What I say decent it again. There's there's baggage with that term but I also think that there's some value because again both sides of the spectrum oftentimes at least covertly are revolving around the men. So if you you know, you know that if you wear something Stimpy you'll get attacked him from the bed. And so then that choice on how to dress is centered around the men.

3:25:24 Yeah. And then on the other side, the sort of preaching of modesty as an. Oh well for the men, you have to do it for the men. Otherwise, they'll you might get raped or whatever. That's all. So, centering men in the other one. Yeah. Um, as far as, oh, you have to say because of the men. Yeah, I think you also have the like, Women who intentionally dress can be because they want. Is it for the attention? Yeah, so um, I think that again, if this is focusing on the externals on the motivation is off. Yeah. Right. Because This is this is the gospel of Zoe K, but I think there's some some value to it. As in. the the one extreme of, like, oh, you must cover up because of the men is partially based in again, the sort of Christian understanding of the body shameful Cover up your body as a shameful thing.

3:26:22 And I would disagree with that. And so I think that a lot of times it was like, oh, we can give me empowered like girl boss where the skimpy outfits, there's some truth to that in that your body shouldn't be something you're ashamed of Right. Um and so this truth there and I so you have sympathy for that because I think that it's reacting to again reaction to the extreme. At the same time, you know, I, I think that you should take the middle path of this and maybe a different one I'm saying. Well, I don't view my body, as A shameful thing.

3:27:03 But all it doesn't mean I'm going to show it to everybody because sacred thing is get hit. Right. Um, And to be able to say, well, I was giving this body. It is the Tabernacle the Temple of my spirit on the temple for God's spirit and so inval that It is not a proclamation of the ugliness, or the unworthiness of the thing, being veiled, but rather of the worthiness of the rest of the world to see it. Absolutely. Yes. So in that reframing, I think it there's a lot of dignity.

3:27:45 And I'm saying yes, my body sacred. It is beautiful. It is an instrument of creation. It is after the image of God, And I choose who I want to see it and when and it's something that I don't just cast before the world. Yeah. I thought of it like this. Are any of us here? Ashamed of covenants? We've either made or will make in them. Okay, are we ashamed of anything we learn or may learn in the temple? But we don't necessarily broadcast everything in the temple. Yeah.

3:28:26 That we do, right? It's not out of sense of Shame. It's It's it's sacred. We're gonna hold it closed its sacred and I think I think it's a very similar thing here, right? I think As I've looked at the Majesty thing. In realizing that it's a loaded term. Maybe even a better word is. The sacredness of something. Just as we look at the temple and say, we're not going to talk about those things because those are sacred, not that they can't be accessed, right? But, It has to be. Through the correct way, at the correct time at the correct place.

3:29:09 And so I think our bodies probably should be much the same. It's it's about just as Zoe pointed out here. It's nothing to be ashamed of but the same time because it's sacred, it deserves a certain type of treatment, right? And Well, a lot of talk with modesty, also turns into this checklist of like, what is, or isn't modest? Then like, okay, your sleeve has to come to here or you're Pants or skirt, need to come past your knees, or some people has to come to your wrists. And when I started coming into fundamentalism, I'm like, okay, I'm going to wear long sleeves to prepare for the longer garments because that's something that's very important to me and I really do value modesty.

3:30:00 So it wasn't too much of a search for me because I already like wearing one stuff and a few months in. I was praying about it and God actually told me, no, you need to be wearing shorts right now and I thought it was really weird and the reason why is I I have self-harms cars on my arm. and, So every time I put on a long-sleeve shirt, the thought process in my head started revolving around the scars was I need to hide these. I'm so ashamed of these and so God had me wear short sleeves until I wasn't ashamed of the scars anymore and I wasn't a sugar daddy anymore. So I was doing it for the correct reasons.

3:30:42 It is awesome actually, and I actually also had a similar experience. We talked about this before. Um, where, and I think this is My. Motivations around my own. Modesty were largely based on the shame. Um, so I I was bulimic as a teenager. Um, and ended up. Getting a lot of weight and being very self-conscious. And I started wearing long sleeves and I was wearing skirts as you because I was like on my body so disgusting, I don't want people to see my shape. And it.

3:31:30 Prove this persisted for a long time. And I had a sort of series of sort of realizations and experiences that kind of helped me come out of that and be like Oh and after a while I so I'm wearing skirts like pretty much full-time. I was younger and I started wearing pants for, I wore pants for a while soda similar to Michaela of like, oh, I need you to sort of have a moment to reframe. Why am I doing this? A lot of the motivations behind it and to turn it from a thing around the shame. To something that. Is. beautiful, but I, you know, cover because it's sacred and I think again this this understanding how helps a lot of things change, a lot of things because first off it makes it more of a personal decision and all.

3:32:20 So Um, remove the sort of Towing, the line that I think is very common in LDS circles. Right of? Well, it has to cover your garments and you know, like the modesty is to cover the garments and in some respects. I think there's something good about that. As far as like, oh, work trying to cover the secret thing, right? So that I would agree but also like, well, how how close can we get the line? Right. So now there's a, there's a change in garments recently, and now they're sleeveless or can obviously list and I passed on my drive through Provo as a thing for like, Everly coat and it's uh, Utah's new tank top.

3:33:01 It's like a company. Selling tank, tops marketed towards more audience, just barely covered the new Garmin lines. And I see that as such. So tragic, because You maybe you feel the garments of sacred but you don't view your body is sacred. Or not as much, not realizing that sort of the garments. The sacredness of the garments is partially, because of the sickness of the body. But they're giving to cover the signs of the body. and, and so if you have this idea of oh I respect myself, I view my own body is sacred, then you're not looking oh well, how close can I get Yeah.

3:33:43 Yeah. Well, and in this is this is part of the danger with the modesty. um idea as it is framed now is that I find it to be far more Ferris, citizen spiritual Yeah. Um, and look having said that I wear long sleeves everywhere, right? Because I've been endowed in a Mormon fundamentalist Temple. Um, But like you, I think these these things, the motivation needs to be questioned. You know, back to the long garment Kind of a Funny Story. I remember after I was first in doubt you know, in a fundamentalist Temple, there's wearing the long garment I was in Saint George the week.

3:34:32 The week after that, I got endowed on a Saturday and I was back to work on Monday. And it was July in Saint George. And I was outside hiking. To First server, that's why I did. And I remember thinking this is hot and this crap better be true because But but, you know, in all seriousness, I think I think both of you are on the right track. Right? Why are we doing this? And it's interesting that in both your cases, it was God, who told you? I think the opposite direction with, which you've been feeling comfortable with it at a time, not because God likes to be contradictory to himself to test us, but because he's trying to get your heart, right? And that's what I came.

3:35:15 Both of your stories. That's what, what came out. He's like, again, it, you know, Don't worry about the pharisaical, prescription. Listen to me. Let's get your heart right first and everything else will fall into place after that. And I think that's really the. The thing there that I think we should take away is You know, get your heart right and everything else will fall behind that, right? Clean handed a pure heart. Yep. Anything else? Can be done with it. Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, to Michaela made a great Point, dudes are very visual, right?

3:35:56 But at the same time, I believe even that was placed there by God. Because look. Whether people want to admit it or not, it's a big reason why guys get married, right? I mean that's a healthy thing. And and it's part of that, as it's talked about in the temple, that's one of the ways that you you kind of bridal those passions right to to be able to put that into proper perspective. None of those things that we have as people those appetites, Are in and of themselves Unholy. Um and it's it's one thing that that quite frankly I have tried to push against personally is this idea that that because they are? Holy and we don't like to talk about them or show them. Doesn't mean that they're they're Unholy doesn't mean that they're bad.

3:36:54 It just means it's reserved for a proper time in a place. Right. I think just sort of going off of what you said. Um insane. Oh well this isn't about the men. Isn't it? To denigrate them at all? Yeah and I think there's been there has been a war on Nail designer um which is unfortunate, you know, it's like oh you are dirty. Are your bad for even wanting that sort of thing and I think that's Completely wrong, they're just again a place. I really hope you desire your wife. Yeah, I do. You. Have children. Enjoy it. It's funny.

3:37:36 Fourth Nephi is one, you know, one of the places I like to turn there because it's one of the few places in scripture where it says and they multiplied exceedingly fast and I remember I had to go in. Um, and, It. I was a young men's president at the time and they were beaten these poor guys up. I mean beating him up like you shouldn't have any sort of feelings and I mean really, really going after him hard. and I remember, I, I kind of gave the opposite view there and I got up and I quoted fourth Nephi and I'm like, look, I hate to break it to you. Those people really enjoyed each other, right?

3:38:17 Like, I don't know how else you want me to say it? Those are healthy healthy desires. Don't taint them at the same time? How they proper respect? and, Okay. One more on the men of the stations, I kind of want to get to go over this little more later, but there is one point on this. I really want to get to health and cycleogical issue is. This is what comes of? Yeah, understanding. Yeah. I've misunderstanding, um, eating this order, I want to talk about this a little bit more than I did early because how prevalent eating this, sweaters are amongst women in particular. Um, and are actually very, very, and It when you really get down to it, one of the root issues which is usually subconscious. Like most women aren't thinking this, consciously is a denial of the femininity a denial of feminine and something about being feminine is wrong.

3:39:16 And so I must hide that because a lot, a lot of people who are anorexic this It's a little bit different numbers for bulimia but anorexia majority of women with anorexia have been sexually abused at some point in their life. It is a control issue. Usually of my life feels out of control, so I'll control this because I've been to be abused, I must deny my femininity because anorexia comes with because of the way it Shrinks you basically because you're not eating anything. Um, your chest as much smaller. Everything is much smaller, much more than brittle and so you look less feminine because of that.

3:40:02 You also have a lot more angles with the face and yeah, yeah, you're snuggles stop and so a lot of it is based around control and then also like, I need to fit this or beauty standard and that's where you get the body dysmorphia of Thinking you look fat when you're really underweight. I think going back to the deny, the femininity the other part of saying is like oh, well, you know, you've been abused you've had things happen and so Like this happened because I was beautiful because I was desirable I make sure that that never happens to me again out of it takes, you know sort of destroying the beauty. So be it.

3:40:42 Yeah as a protected mechanism and I can understand. Yeah, it's the same sort of thing with me a lot of the time so in the other direction So I feel impressed here why we were talking and she brought this up. I wanted to see what the rates were in Utah compared to the rest of the nation. Evidence suggests that rates of Eating Disorders including potential anorexia are hiring Utah than the rest of the nation particularly among adolescents and women Studies have found that nearly 3,000 girls roughly 4% of female students met the criteria for potential. anorexia I can't help but Wonder not because I agree with you Michaela 100% that a lot of this is coming from abuse, which has its own questions that need to be answered. Right?

3:41:36 Um, But also, if you saw as creeping up there and plastic surgery for for purely vanity, yeah, I would imagine that these numbers would follow and it looks like they are right. Like this seems the more we talk here. The more this seems to be a problem. And needs to be addressed through churches. Yeah, I would argue that the numbers are actually probably higher than that. Because myself and a lot of other people are never officially diagnosed because we're able to stay out of the hospitals. So like I was probably like five to 10 pounds underweight for years, but I kept it at such a level that I was never hospitalized. I know people who got to a point where they were passing out and then they had to be taken to the hospital and we're diagnosed that way.

3:42:24 But there's a lot of cases that are able to keep it just high enough that they won't be hospitalized. But if you were to ever have a doctor sit down with them, the doctor would be like, yeah, you have Anarchy and similar thing for me like I was never diagnosed it, you know, with my blame me and never Hit the radar of the statistics. Yeah. she's, Through because there's also a lot of Shame wrapped up and eating disorders. Yeah. So nobody wants to talk about it, so unless you get bad enough to be hospitalized or things like that, like No One's Gonna know and it's never counted. And also, I just say, people are always better at hiding things than you, give them credit.

3:43:08 Yeah. There are all sorts of Tricks. Mm-hmm. And You know, at least for me, like, I have a very loving, very involved family. I was homeschooled and even so, um, This didn't really get picked up on. so Zoe and your case, do you feel like The manifestation of that came from societal pressures more than anything else. If it's not too personal of a question, you can tell me to shut my pie hole. If it is, no, I I did have. I think it was a couple of things. I think it's sharing at all as.

3:43:53 A sort of. Trial response. That was not sexually, not from sexual abuse. Um, that was weird and I might maybe always had sort of inclinations that direction and that was very young. That was like as a nine year old. Um, right. And then a little bit later. It was a combination of well. I'm like overweight now I have to fix that. It's not beautiful. And then coupled with, I did have an experience. as a young teenager that loves me as far as like, sexuality nothing physical happened, but it was More of an emotional thing.

3:44:37 And so that it was a combination of oh, well, I'm not beautiful right now but I need to be beautiful. Um, and then I didn't tell you that it was like oh I don't want to be beautiful eyes. So like this horrible mental fight of like different levels of the subconscious. Like I need to be beautiful and I don't want to be beautiful because it's gonna get me a tention. I don't want but also I want the attention. Because one of the like, if not the number one, like, really high up their roots of any eating, this order is control. Something about my situation feels uncontrollable. So, this is the way I control it. I feel like I'm not beautiful. I need to control my beauty and so this is how I'm going to control it.

3:45:20 My life is chaos right now. My parents are getting a divorce. I'm being abused. This thing or that thing is happening. I can control my food so I will do that. And it's one of the key markers amongst anyone with an eating disorder, as it's usually a control issue and that's part of where, like faith and letting go let God kind of thing is, can be helpful for coming out of that. Part of it too. So, for me personally, um, because it's so for me, when I start getting in that anarchy, it started coming in more subconsciously and my sister struggle with it to varying degrees as well. And so we made our kitchen motto. We don't believe in Eating Disorders. So if anyone like was refusing to eat or anything like that, we would just go.

3:46:10 We don't believe in eating disorder. Isn't this household? So probably a pretty healthy way of dealing with that. Yeah, so he's aren't real. Yeah. Right. Yeah, probably that far but yeah. Okay, so manifestations the good ones. So this is I gotta say, this is what yeah, this is what we see as coming from a proper understanding and okay connection with sort of the divine feminine and the that tradition within Mormonism. Yeah. She's already talked about the modesty one bailing your body because it's a sacred thing and we want to keep sacred things sacred healthy sexuality. We talked about this a little bit but realizing it's good within the confines of marriage and then it's not an evil. Gross thing.

3:47:07 Is there anything you want to see? No. Yeah. Having healthy, stable relationships, and sort of hating everyone around you. Taking care of your body, you'll eat healthy good, hygiene training your body as a temple. I've heard before that. Real self-care is body care. If you're doing the like watching TV shows and taking bubble baths, but you're not exercising and eating healthy or anything like that. You're not actually doing self-care. You're doing fake self-care. And then having loving families because we love children.

3:47:47 We see that they're great, they can see that they're not a burden and they do not ruin our entire lives. and having to Children barring things like infertility or for some reason, if you're unable to get married And then also that. Accessing God's power, were women performed, the living ordinances. So like we give birth, we feed our children. Things like that, where then you have the sacrament and baptism done by the men. That's a great Point. Yeah, that is a great. I like that a lot, the living ordinances. I hadn't even thought about And we talk about the birth versus Badges and things I hadn't thought about like breastfeeding. Yeah.

3:48:32 And then you also like mothers, give their children baths and help make sure they're clothed. Like it's usually the mother doing that. And then like yeah, like you have the washing and the Ninja Turtles done by the women but like the endowment and everything like it's very interesting some of the parallels there is that's that's a great Insight okay? Yeah. Okay. I credit all of that too. Consider yourself as Eve by Megan partner. She's fat butt pointed out to me. That's, that's awesome. That's that's good. Sorry, I finished it. Like we need a bibliography for this. No no, it's good.

3:49:17 So they'll blame me if anything's know I mean like as far as like here in the description and like here's like all the poster. Like a good inside. They're like, I just wanted a podcast. I'm listening to this because I'm not reading. You can get books as audiobooks and all you have time is still okay. I'll tell you what, the scariest thing I ever read concerning this podcast. Is someone says, it's great. That's kind of what I do for church. And I'm like, no, you should not be using this for that. Like you don't want that. You need to go somewhere else. Well, there's a call butt too even if it's terrified. This is not true.

3:50:05 I make far too many football references and smoking, meat references to have to be anything close to church. And there you see the problem over like demanding church and bring back all of that stuff. Sunday afternoon, brisket smokes. Yeah. Brisket, while you have your elders core meeting. I see no problem with that. Actually, I think it could be quite good. I think I heard somebody where they're like the Bishops out of town, we're doing Chick-fil-A and they like, yes, it took place on Sunday. So the guy KFC. But they're like, we need the men to just sit down. Eat me and talk. That's the only way to get them to talk is to feed the meat.

3:50:45 Look, there's a lot truth to that and to go along with how serious I am. There's only there's there's there was one guy that I really trusted to have my smoker when I moved to Missouri. When someone said, how committed was? I to go to Missouri. I was like, I'm all in. And then when I found out that I didn't have room and was gonna have to leave my smoker, I was like, she's got to go to a good home and she went to Josh's house. I'm like, I trust Josh, he can have this and I'm like, I'm not gonna charge it cuz it's like how do you put a price on something that sacred just take it? Give it a good home.

3:51:28 So, shout out Josh for that. Yes. Yes. Okay, we're so close almost. Okay, here we go. So more large scale effects of misunderstandings misconceptions. Skewing things obviously gender Wars. You see that? um, where like you, you had this thing of like Yes, there's the gender War but everyone's Sleeping with the Enemy. So not much will come from it but like with the rise of lgbtq that's increased tension. so right, um, transgenderism and cross-dressing, we see this as part of Ishtar worship, if being a woman is bad, temptation to transition goes up as you have transition as Acceptable and even applauded. And then on the flip note if there's an idea of femininity as very superficial and vapid then it makes the men who want to turn this and think that they can be a woman. Yeah.

3:52:35 From all of the Aesthetics and the outward. Yeah. Um, and if gender isn't, he turned on any essential then why not transition? What's the argument? I Right. And that's look. It, there's a common misconception out there that I hate the LDS church and that's nothing. Could be further from the truth. I, I enjoyed my time there. And I'm rooting for the LDS church. I hope that one day. They just canonized the family. Proclamation. Yeah because that will put that debate to bed at least within the church and I'm really hopeful for that.

3:53:17 Sorry because gender is a vital part of who we are. Yeah. And we can try to deny that all we want, but the truth is, is that it is at its core of who we are as people. Yeah. And if that can be fluid, There's nothing left to tether to. You can just throw off and you shackle, you want and recall sorts of havoc in society. Yeah. Okay, we also see Nuns. Know when yes or growing 2023 survey of unaffiliated with religion. This is from the American Survey Center said amongst Millennials 37% of men and 34% of women were unaffiliated with religion and of Jen X 34% of men and 39% of women are unaffiliated with religion.

3:54:14 So we are actually seeing growing numbers of women being unaffiliated with religion and this doesn't necessarily mean atheist it can just it can connect it can mean spiritual Which is a very vague term but because again if you have a this has been a problem with the masculine side if you have if you think that your religion. Doesn't like you if you think your religion has no place for the things you feel like obviously, you're not gonna feel it. Yeah. of the of those who identify as an affiliated. In the millennial generation you have 503% men and 47% Women Within the N Affiliated bracket of the numbers and in gen Z 46% men 50 for percent women. All right.

3:55:04 So, within an Affiliated in our generation, we are seeing More women end up in that territory. And I would guess that a lot of those women are actually in that like agnostic spiritual rather than atheist You're going to see more men within the atheist sphere. So I I have I have a question on that stat. With more women becoming an affiliated with religious groups. Could any of that? Be due to the fact that they feel like they can't find a man in there because we kind of touched on this. They can't find a good man inside their religion. It could be that it could cut off. So be this idea that religion is misogynistic and hates them and there's no place for them there.

3:55:55 There's lots of factors that go in to that. You also have Pagan worship, increasing, where you see new ages them like new wages. I'm still pretty small but you're seeing it show up more and more like Even within shows, you'll see like we do boards a lot. You'll see the crystals things like that. All right, we have a declining Birthright. What is this one from? I forgot to include which source I pulled this from, but live births per thousand people in 1950 was 24.27 and 2025 is 11.99.

3:56:36 So, we have have our birth rates and the past 75 years. I think we fell below replacement rate, like five years ago. Yeah, I was. Including in When you fall below replacement, right? At some point, that means there's damage that you can't undo right there will be a generation at which everything breaks, yeah, financially included right there will not be replacement rate and that means that Society is we know what will function differently. Yeah.

3:57:16 Look at one million 38,000 of abortions were provided by clinicians and states without total bands. In 2024, a less than one percent increase from 2023 and an increase of 12% from 2020. oh, Yeah. That's good. Yeah, you also have the depression epidemic and suicide statistics. I'm not sure if you tells the worst date but I know it's definitely up there if it's not the worst, it's pretty close. And this comes from the CDC. There were 49,000 suicides in 2023 12.8 million. Have seriously thought about suicide 3.7 million have made a plan and 1.5 million have attempted suicide. There are more reported attempted. So there are more suicides performed by men than there are women but there are more reported attempted suicides or made a plan by women than men.

3:58:17 And the depression is higher amongst women than men. But it actually being carried out is seen higher within men. Depression is higher in women than men 16%. So, 16% of women compared to 10.1% of men for depression, from the CDC. There's lots of factors that go into depression, so this isn't just because women don't have a place but that doesn't help depression. Okay, so that's that's the that's the negative side pressure that the pressing you better. Be careful mikilo, we're gonna podcast. Oh, That's okay. Good to God.

3:58:59 He'll save you. But then I guess the flip side is what we'd hoped would happen which is sort of large societal level affects of understanding. Yeah so the first one is like obviously worked towards Um, resolving sort of gender board. When you when you have an understanding of the place is for everybody, but you don't need to fight, right? Um, also like more Sisterhood, right? That's so it's so important for so many reasons, especially because having children is so hard and like having a community is a really good way to help alleviate that reduce postpartum, depression and anxiety, and all that stuff.

3:59:41 And um, When you have the sort of the vanity or like the sort of original Relief Society, I think it's a lot better of a structure. Hypothetically. Um, then what we have now and Um, so Smith said, the churches not fully organized without the woman being organized. Right. He's right. Um, there's much more General perspective, right? We have perspective. But yes Eternal perspective. um, because again all the things things are broken now, but they're not going to be broken. People grow old and they die now but they're not gonna go old and die all of the the Brokenness in the world. This is something that I love so about my own religion. I'm like, oh so one of the major conundrums of philosophical thought out of religious thought is the problem of evil the problem of evil.

4:00:38 Why do bad things happen? Why do babies die? Why does God allow all of this Badness and I remember one time the listening to One of Dennis prager's Fireside Chats. And he said that the problem of evil was the one thing he had not. How did not have an answer to Which is amazing to me because I think he's very wise man and having the answers to lots of things but for me. it's not a because I have, I have two things that make it, so it doesn't bother me. Um, one is that the acknowledged that the world in and of itself is fallen?

4:01:21 So why does God let the natural adapt? The disasters happen. Why does God make babies born without eyes? You know, it's like well, It's corrupted world. People do corrupted things. The nature is itself, fallen. And that doesn't mean that was God's plan, or that he joys in that. But it is the case. And then the other is the fact that well, this isn't it, right? If this life were it, then when I see people who have these who have struggles or I have struggles of my own that like how can this possibly be fair? How can God possibly love me when I only get this one life? And maybe my life isn't as great as I wanted to be.

4:02:05 But how do you have? Oh well this again this isn't the end, there's something so much bigger and it's going to be a I firmly it's gonna be, you know, a bad summer camp. We're all gonna get off this place. And be like, oh, haha, do you remember when this happened? Wasn't that? So awful. Like I do now, you know, we go on a road trip. Get a flat tire super Pride. Somebody gets burned. Like oh, like wasn't that so funny. And I see that being with this world in another self. Um, and like hopefully you grew I'm very much believe in finding the good and the bad. And going yeah, there's bad thing happened. It kind of sucked but here's all the things it taught me. And here's the good that came out of it. I think there's just more confidence that goes along with this the identity right of daughters of God mothers and Zion.

4:03:07 Um and the humility that goes along with that and then also when you have that I can when you realize your place when you see God as your father when you realize that there are there are these things in these gifts and these callings accessible. then you can you can you have a knowledge to be able to ask for them? and as a whole I think it would bring much more spiritual power to the church because right now Um sort of cut off from a lot of that and so we were weaker than we could be we have fewer. Yes of the spirit. Then we could have there's less Priestess than we could have. There's a quote from a woman and Mormon Dom where it's talking about how when you have good rides yourself bad rise, too because what good rice good rise.

4:03:55 Yeah when good Rises. Yeah, um, you have bad rice too because there must be an opposition in all things and it says to this is to be attributed the decline of spiritual gifts and a later period in the Mormon church for the spirits were poured out. So abundantly that the Saints began to fear vision and angels and prophecy and the speaking in tongues. Thus the sisters who are ever the best mediums of spiritual gifts in the church have in latter years been shorn of their Glory. And that's an 1877. That is a kind of a damning statement. Holy cow. Oh and when we understand Mormonism we can have that.

4:04:37 Yep, that's cool. It's available. Now. It's not a it's not a problem of us waiting on God God's giving us the formula. We just got to implement it. Yeah, right. so, I think it's about our notes, the sort of conclusion in color. Yeah. This they're in within true, modernism. And, and I don't know that anybody's doing all the trauma. Be that Les Church, be that the Fundamentalist. this is why I'm not saying fundamentals and true Mormonism, which ought to be synonymous but unfortunately aren't within more than there's room for A feminine God there's room for you know the the role of women and feminine power.

4:05:28 And again some of these terms have baggage but at their core I think there's truth like this could bring so many blessings and here so many problems we have now. Um, and so then, you know, what do you do? Well, you need to, you know, for you the listener, like learn your own religion. and realize, you know, the value of the place and they did any and um, understanding that you are literal child. A loving set of heavenly parents who have only your best interests at heart all the time.

4:06:09 And that because you are literally their child you have the right. To call on them. To speak to access power and blessings from the Heavenly realm and that you don't belong here on this Earth. Um that you know Heaven is your home. And that the fallenness is a temporary thing, but doesn't mean that what is Fallen is bad. It's Fallen. check and we don't need to throw out the vine Permanente and we don't need to go to Pagan got us as for it and said we can go to God we can go to scripture. We can go to the words of the Prophet because it is there and it does exist if we look and we do so with a prayerful heart. So I'm other sources that might be helpful the origin and Destiny of woman by John Taylor.

4:07:03 It's about two pages. I'm not going to read it now because it's kind of long and then Elijah snow wrote a poem called a woman also just reading through Eliza Snow's discourses and poetry and stuff as great highly recommend. I personally don't agree with everything. She says she has a couple points. She likes to get on a lot that I don't necessarily agree with but That they're really good places to at least start. And again, this these things were there. Yeah. We are not coming and saying anything new. Yeah, it all is already there and you just have to realize it and that is what Mormonism ought to be its supposed to be all the truth. All right. That's a very good and so, the truth about The roles a men and women and the truth about where Beauty actually comes from and the truth about creation and the SAT self-sacrificial Christ like nature of motherhood and of living ordinances and the union of the spiritual and the physical that all is already there and all change the way you see so much stuff for the better?

4:08:09 I hope. Yeah, absolutely. I'll say this in conclusion and I'll throw it back to you guys. If you have any other thing you want to say For a little while. Now, I've been very concerned with the generation coming up. Not just a Mormons either. Um, as I look around, I don't think I've ever seen and certainly, I haven't been able to find in history in American history a time where so many of our youth are so nihilistic. mmm, and that concerns me deeply because I look around and and in all honesty.

4:08:52 While there are certainly some dark things going on, right we can't discount that by and large we're safer as people than we've ever been before right in terms of physical safety not to say bad things don't happen, but it's true. We have medical advancements that are miracles. But yet we're more disconnected and more nihilistic than ever. and you guys kind of touched on it in this last little bit. We've got to restore hope back to Youth and a large and not just young men, but young women as well.

4:09:34 And that's going to be a heavy lift for everybody involved. But we don't have a choice. And a large part of this is learning to heal. From some of the harmful ideas we have that surround gender both. From the, from the masculine and The Feminine sides. But to get there, we're going to have to make peace with who we are as people. And I don't think we can make peace with who we are as people, those things that are divinely attached to being either male or female until we view it through the lens of the Gospel. I think that is the healing balm that has to be applied if we want to get there and so much of what you ladies have presented here. is is pointing in that direction and I think people need to key in on that because it is a problem that quite frankly We've arrived, we've arrived at the Event Horizon. Here we are below.

4:10:38 Replacement rate, which concerns me greatly. We are seeing less and less marriage happen. we're seeing more abortion than ever, we are seeing More quite frankly. selfishness being put on the same level that the virtue of being selfless used to be We live in the age of the selfie and that's manifesting in some pretty horrific ways, plastic surgery being one of them. But we can't have healing but you're gonna have to be healed by the great healer. That's Jesus Christ and I'll throw it back to you guys to wrap this up. I don't know if we have much more to be honest. Amen.

4:11:22 He said. Take good problems to the feet of the Lord know I I think you guys hang out for just five minutes. All right, sounds good. All right. Bye everybody. Bye.