Episode #225: Finding Hope, Faith & Love After Trials W/Zack & Mckayla

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Zach Michaela.
How's it going?

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Good.
How are you guys?

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Excellent.
Nice, nice.

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This is going to be a problem if
we keep back answering like In

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Sync.
So like it, it'll be a cool

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sound, but but it might might
get a little tough.

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So man, you know, I am really
looking forward to this one

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because Michaela and Zach, we
had the opportunity to meet when

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when was when was the conference
that we met at October?

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What month was it?
October.

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October, October of 2025 and our
mutual friend who again, I don't

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know if he, he would like to
remain nameless or not, but he,

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he just said, hey, man, come
down here.

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There's some folks that want to
meet you.

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And I had the opportunity to
meet with, meet you just a

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little bit, talk to you.
And from there we're here.

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And so I'm, I'm super looking
forward to this and talking

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about your guys's story and, and
how you got here.

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So, Zach, let's start with you.
So you were born a

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fundamentalist, right?
Correct.

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Yes.
But I didn't grow up in in the

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in the fundamentalist community
per SE.

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I actually grew up in public
school and I just kind of went

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through that, stayed religious
mostly through it, although.

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And then I ended up relatively
serving a mission afterwards and

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just kind of like that.
Right.

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And that's for the the the
fundamentalist church that you.

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Yeah, the Nelson neighbors, as
we're commonly referred to.

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OK, All right.
I didn't know if they wanted to

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be named, so I was trying to be
gentle, but awesome.

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So real quick, you said that
that you went to public school,

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right?
Yes.

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How?
Like most fundamentalist kids

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don't necessarily go to fund to
to public school, right?

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Some do, but but the majority
are either homeschooled or a lot

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of groups have their own school.
What was your what was your

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experience going through through
public school as a

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fundamentalist?
Like, did anybody know?

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I I mean, I imagine at some
point someone's going to say

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something.
Right.

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So anybody who knows me, I'm
more of a loud and proud kid.

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So I actually went through all
public school completely open

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about my religion and all of
that.

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I didn't try handling it at all.
So, and I kind of dropped that

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from my siblings a little bit.
They had gone through and they

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were picked on a little bit
whenever they mention anything

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like it.
And I saw them picked on

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regardless.
So for me, I'm like, OK, if I'm

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going to fight, then I'm going
to go down swinging.

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And so I literally, yeah, so I
literally was been through both

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elementary, middle school and
high school, even though I'm

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just saying like, hey, I am a
fundamentalist.

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And even it was kind of fun
because in in high school and

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granted, I had a big chip on my
shoulder at the time, so I'm

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very grateful for that.
The Lord has kind of helped me

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wind that down quite a bit.
But I used to get into debates

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all the time, just debates about
the gospel and all that kind of

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stuff.
And eventually I even got some

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atheists on my side, which was
kind of funny when it was

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between me and this LDS kid.
We're going back and forth and

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then the the atheist came to me
afters.

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Like dude, you're sounding a lot
more incense than him.

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Like that's really weird.
And so.

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That's, that's an interesting
thing I have noticed, right, Not

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all atheists.
So I'll say that not all

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atheists, but a good number of
atheists will at least look at a

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Mormon fundamentalist and go,
well, he's at least consistent,

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right?
He doesn't, he, he doesn't hedge

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one way or another.
He just tries to say very

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consistent.
So that's not the first time

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I've heard that.
So what did you get picked on at

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all?
Or.

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Yes, so I was picked on a lot.
So I, I only have like maybe I

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could probably count on both
hands, just both hands of how

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many friends I've had in high
school and middle school.

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And elementary was more of the
roughest part just 'cause I

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think they, the kids were
bullying me, but they didn't

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exactly know why they were
bullying me as much, just

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something that happened at the
time.

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And so, but there's a group of
friends and I keep, I keep tabs

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on one I talk to maybe once a
year.

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And but they, the people that I
am good friends with, they,

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they're really awesome people.
They're people that even though

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they're LDS, they're still very
much respect me and my beliefs

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and I respect them and their
beliefs.

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And we just kind of went through
high school and I did football

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and wrestling both in high
school and middle school and

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once, right?
That's what that's what I did.

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So that's that's where I let let
me ask this question.

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Was it the same on the football
team as it was in like normal

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school?
I would say I got a little bit

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more respect because there's a
more of a brotherhood, a little

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bit more camaraderie there.
There was still like a lot of

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like, I don't want to say like
religious debates.

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There was more of just like
everybody just being boys and

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completely just pushing each
other around, trying to poke at

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one another.
There's a lot more at that.

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What's interesting with the
wrestling cultures, there was a

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lot more respect, which one of
the things I thought very

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interesting is that in wrestling
it's you.

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You respect your brothers a
little bit more there than you

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do football.
Sure.

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No, I remember that because I
did both football and wrestling.

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Those were my 2 sports.
Yeah, I'll say this right?

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Guys have a different love
language than women do, right?

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Like.
If if we insult you and cut you,

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you were part of the boys,
right?

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That's just, that's just part of
part of being able to hang with

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the fellas there a little bit.
And you know, to a degree,

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right?
And I, I, I've also said this,

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most of my best friends that I
had growing up in high school,

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we went, we knock each other
around constantly.

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I shouldn't say constantly.
There's, you know, you, you get

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into a little squabble, you pop
each other in the face and it's

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usually done right.
But interesting.

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So would you say that your your
experience in public school was

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like a net positive and that
negative like what?

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What was your?
Your thoughts?

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I would say it's a, it's a
positive because I made it so

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it's a thing is like, I think, I
think overall, especially with

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my siblings and the way they've
talked to they, they don't, they

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didn't like school.
They wanted, they were like the

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ones that completely get out of
it a lot of the time.

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Like they just didn't want to be
there during my especially

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toward the end of my junior and
senior year where I had things

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completely figured out before
that setting.

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I really enjoyed it.
Glad I didn't stay though.

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Like that's The thing is with my
high school, I heard like the

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year I left, they completely
gotten rid of the dress code and

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so just the whole morals of the
school and everything just

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started to absolute tank after I
so it's like I, I, I appreciate

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the experience that I definitely
had for sure.

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Gotcha.
Gotcha.

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So now with your mission, was
that like a proselytizing

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mission, a service mission?
What kind of mission was that?

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So this was a service mission.
It was, but we helped all the

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groups, whoever asked for help,
we usually had a great time to,

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to help them out.
And I served from Canada to Salt

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Lake, Arizona, Missouri, Idaho,
I served everywhere.

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And it was just mainly people
that wanted help.

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And we, we just got together a
bunch of group of boys then then

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ended up Isaac was the one that
was running it at the time.

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But then we just kind of went
and helped and it was a it was

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one of the most spiritual and
best moments of my life.

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I think it definitely shaped me
to be the person I am today for

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sure.
What do you think it is you took

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away from, from your mission
experience, right?

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Is there like one thing that you
can really remember where you're

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like, oh, this is going to stick
with me forever?

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Yeah, although I lived, my
father lived plural marriage

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until 1, until one of his wife's
left him.

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And I had fond memories of the
beginning of the family, but

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then when she left them, things
ended up starting getting nasty.

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When I was on my mission, I had
a chance to really see plural

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marriage and the way other
families were living it.

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And there was one story in
particular, one family I was

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living with.
And I remember coming into the

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house and seeing the older kids
and the younger kids both

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playing on the floor.
The two wives at the time were

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just talking and just having a
great conversation in the

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corner.
And the love of that house was

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very overwhelming, was amazing.
And then I remember the father

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coming in, the whole kids kind
of stopped, went and said hi to

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dad.
The dad ended up checking in

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with the wives real quick and
then went to the floor and

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played with all the kids, like
all the kids, all ages.

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And that's when I really got my
testimony that this is something

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beautiful.
And in that moment, that beauty

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of that is the most beautiful
thing I've ever seen.

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It's I've been to the ocean,
I've been up in the mountains.

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I've seen all types of amazing
beautiful landscape and a house

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that's living the most that they
can to the gospel of God.

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That is the most beautiful thing
I have ever seen.

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And that's what I'm, but it's
what I want to implement in my

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family.
Gotcha.

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OK, let's do this.
Let's keep going until right

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before you meet Michaela.
OK, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

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So.
So as you as you have this

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experience and you come home,
what do you do next?

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Right.
So when I come home, it was a

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little bit of an interesting
shock.

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I end up coming home and I end
up just kind of going through

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life.
They have this thing in the LDS.

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I've talked to a couple of my
buddies over there and they say

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that you have a post mission
depression and I said I got that

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a little bit when I came home
just because you're going from a

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place of serving everyone, you
know, versus not and you're

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getting a paycheck and you got a
car and money, which is very

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nice.
That was very different, but

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it's it, you just don't got the
same fulfilment.

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So I ended up spending a little
bit time off that and then I

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actually was married once before
and then Needless to say, things

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happened and we ended up
separating and and I remember

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that was one of the hardest
times in my life because I

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didn't have I didn't have the
money to move.

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I had to stay in the same house
I was at the time and still am

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the there today.
But I remember just sit in my

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house being like, I got to get
out of here.

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I got to not spend so much time
at home because that's what

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would happen to back up things a
little bit is because I feel

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impressed to share this story is
when I've gotten home from my

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mission.
I was wondering if I should have

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moved out then.
And I prayed about it, pondered

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it a lot.
And I got the impression if you

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stay, you'll have what you need.
And Fast forward to after me and

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my previous marriage had ended,
I was emotionally just in the

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dumps.
Like I'd come home and

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everything would just hurt.
Like my whole body would just

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hurt.
And one time I came home, it was

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a it was actually about this
time, it was in February and it

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was raining outside.
And I look in the fridge,

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there's no food in the fridge.
I've had a bloody nose all day.

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And one thing that my family
likes to do is we like to put

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something called air in our nose
Ayre.

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And it's like a, just like a
little gel that helps with a

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bloody nose.
I didn't have any of that.

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And then I'm like, OK, well, I
got to go out tired, but I still

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got to go out to get food, eat
something, and then also get

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something for breakfast
tomorrow.

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And as soon as I'm about to hit
the door, then my phone starts

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to ring and it's my mom and end
up answering it.

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And she said, hey, I made a
thing of soup.

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How about you come have some
dinner?

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And I was like sweet so and at
this time, the house that I'm

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00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:51,560
still lived in is on the same
property that my parents live

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00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:55,000
in, not in the same building,
but we are very much still on

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00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,560
the same property.
So I end up walking over there

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00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,600
and one thing about my mom, she
makes some of the best soups.

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00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,840
I, I love my mom for that.
She is an absolute talent of

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00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,360
that.
So I end up having this warm

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00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:14,360
bowl of soup and I asked her, do
you have any eggs that I could

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00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,360
have for tomorrow's breakfast?
And then she gives me like a

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00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:23,240
big, it's like two or three
dozen eggs, like one of those

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00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,480
cartoons.
And then I asked her, do you

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00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,840
have anything the any air for?
My buddy knows.

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00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,680
She goes, let me check.
She looks on the regular spot,

237
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,440
nothing there.
And she's like, let me go check

238
00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,840
one more place and she usually
doesn't put it there.

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00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,120
And that's the back of the
cabinet in her sink in her in

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00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,080
her bedroom.
But then she finds this little

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00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,000
box with this one tube left in
it.

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00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:53,560
And she ends up giving to me.
And I remember walking home and

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00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:59,960
the clearest day of if you stay,
you'll have what you need.

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00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:07,320
And ever since I had that, I was
like, OK, I'm in it to stay.

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00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,480
Let's end up just trying to
stick through this.

246
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,000
Then I end up still staying in
the house, but I'm like, I need

247
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,000
to get out of here.
I just can't physically stay

248
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,360
here as much.
And I'm scrolling on Instagram

249
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,760
and then comes as many people
know me.

250
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,400
I am.
I help out at Dusty Boots, which

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00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:32,160
is a dance place that I hope I
during the social, I'll take

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00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,640
couples in that are kind of
struggling a little bit and I'll

253
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:42,640
teach them some dance lessons.
And that's where I ended up

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00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,000
really having a really amazing
time.

255
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:55,000
And then the instructor comes.
Well, let me back up a little

256
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,240
bit because that was actually
very interesting.

257
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,320
So I have the thing to scroll on
my phone.

258
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:03,320
I took the ballroom in high
school, so I've always been a

259
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,120
relatively good dancer.
My mom kind of pushed me into it

260
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,400
and I fell in love with it.
And so because of my background

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00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,080
in ballroom and also a little
bit in wrestling, I can see

262
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,520
someone's movement and then copy
it pretty quickly.

263
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:21,840
And so the guy that owns Dusty
Boot, he looked at me and says

264
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:23,880
like you pick up moves pretty
quickly.

265
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,600
Do you want to start
instructing?

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00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,160
And I'll teach you how to do
this.

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00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,440
And then you can, you can learn
more and that kind of stuff.

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00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,400
So then I started going to the
classes, the instructor classes

269
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:36,880
and learning how to teach and
all that kind of stuff.

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00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:41,320
And then eventually he let me
start being on staff and that

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00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,120
kind of stuff.
And so that's where I can't

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00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:48,440
currently am now.
And it's interesting at how much

273
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,400
that has come up over and over
again.

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00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,640
That's if you stay, God will
take care of you.

275
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,400
It may not be what you want, but
it is it.

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00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,080
You will have what you need,
which has been very interesting.

277
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:09,440
You know, that's so interesting.
How the Lord works with each of

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00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:12,079
us differently in those types of
circumstances, right?

279
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,760
Because, you know, as I think
everybody knows that listens to

280
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,839
the podcast even a little bit.
I started out this whole

281
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,720
fundamentalist journey because
of plural marriage, right?

282
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:26,119
That wasn't my reason to go in.
That was something that happened

283
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,080
that caused me to look at the
rest of, of fundamentalism.

284
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:32,720
But I remember when that 1
ended.

285
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:40,080
I remember very clearly the the
instruction I got was close this

286
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:45,320
chapter, move on, right?
Sell this place and move on.

287
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,040
And I was like, I'm not selling
it.

288
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,320
You know, it's a nice little
piece of ground, you know, 5

289
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,120
acres, middle of nowhere, almost
to the Oregon border.

290
00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:01,520
And yeah, I, it's interesting
the differences right now.

291
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,760
Mine took me through North
Dakota and that's because I

292
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,080
think I'm hard headed and God's
most petulant child.

293
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,800
So he punished me with North
Dakota.

294
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,880
You know, my apologies to anyone
who lives in North Dakota, but I

295
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,840
won't apologize to North Dakota,
that place.

296
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,320
Is rough.
God put the oil there so we

297
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:20,560
wouldn't feel bad about getting
it.

298
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,080
It, it, it was, it was, it was
rough, but it's interesting how

299
00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:32,640
the Lord deals with us so
individually and yet worries

300
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,000
about all of his children kind
of on the macro level, right?

301
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,960
So what what do you think it was
about going and teaching dance

302
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,760
that kind of helped you through
that time?

303
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,040
So for me, the lesson was more
of just how to teach people, how

304
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,760
to teach everybody.
So the my instructor, he is such

305
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,880
an amazing person, incredibly
smart.

306
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,240
He breaks down things on a level
that I couldn't even imagine.

307
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,000
He taught us how to break down
things.

308
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,480
And I actually apply that a lot
to the gospel.

309
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,120
And a lot of like, if I talk to
people right now where like he

310
00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,640
identifies certain fundamental,
fundamental, fundamental

311
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:20,160
thinking and then that transfers
to like explaining, you need to

312
00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:24,400
explain to people a certain way
that they understand.

313
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,640
And if that doesn't work, then
you shift and you shift quickly.

314
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:33,120
And so now I'll do that work.
I will start to say something

315
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:35,040
and I notice it won't
necessarily resonate.

316
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,280
And then I'll try switching to
something different to where the

317
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,320
person had a better chance of
grasping it.

318
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,320
So that was something that he
even now I'm still learning that

319
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:51,360
kind of stuff of like explain
this this way and God still help

320
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:52,320
me.
That's one of the reasons I'm

321
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,000
still there is that I'm still
learning how to teach and how to

322
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,040
become like that.
Sounds like it kind of took you

323
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,120
outside yourself, right, where
you were focusing on somebody

324
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:07,880
else rather than what you were
going through at the time.

325
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,840
Yeah, there I believe it was.
Gordon B Hinckley of the LDS

326
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,720
Church had a great story about
this.

327
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:18,720
Where he'd wrote home to his dad
a couple different times, right,

328
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,520
about how hard the mission was
and how he wasn't necessarily

329
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,280
enjoying it or finding success.
And his dad wrote him back a

330
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,080
letter.
And it was one sentence, dear

331
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,160
Gordon, forget yourself and go
to work.

332
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,880
And there's a lot of truth to
that, right?

333
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:43,160
This idea of of shifting your
gaze from the inward to the

334
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:49,280
outward, right?
I think so often it, it's, it's

335
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,920
our nature when we hurt to focus
inwardly.

336
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:55,440
And I think that's part of that
thing that Christ says about if

337
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,040
you lose your life, you'll find
it again.

338
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:58,440
Yes.
Right.

339
00:20:58,960 --> 00:20:59,520
And that's.
Amazing.

340
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,240
You, you got to be able to to
lose yourself a little bit and

341
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,920
something bigger than you.
Yeah, and that's, that's one

342
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,600
thing that I absolutely love
about my job is that you you

343
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,200
have people that come in that
they're kind of hunched over,

344
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,320
they're socially awkward.
They're, they're not.

345
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,760
Maybe this one does anyway.
But then you start to teach them

346
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,720
and through dance, you literally
see them open up.

347
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,000
You see them really start to
come confident in their whole

348
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,760
life.
And their whole life will change

349
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,040
because they learned this one
skill, which is part of being

350
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:44,040
confident with your movements.
And that is such a blessing to

351
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:45,880
see.
I love seeing that in people.

352
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,920
It's it's soulmated.
Awesome.

353
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,240
And and it's at Dusty Boots that
you will meet Michaela.

354
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:55,400
Yes, it is.
All right.

355
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,800
So is there anything else we
missed before we move on to to

356
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:00,880
Michaela going up to about the
same time?

357
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,280
No, I don't think so.
I think we covered that.

358
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,280
All right, Michaela, we're on to
you.

359
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:09,440
So like, what's your Mormon
cred, right?

360
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,640
Where, where do you come from?
Which, you know, born

361
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,080
fundamentalist or mainstream?
What, where, Where'd you come

362
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:17,520
from?
Born and raised in the LS

363
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,520
Church.
I come from pioneer stock on my

364
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,760
dad's side.
My mom's from the South.

365
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,920
So it's funny when she, my my
dad born, raised to Utah.

366
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,000
And she likes to say she's like,
that's funny.

367
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,000
I didn't know that when you
marry Utah, boy, you don't

368
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,680
really leave Utah because she's
been in Utah ever since.

369
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,080
Yeah.
So I was born raised in the LS

370
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,040
church.
I always kind of struggled a

371
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,040
little bit with the people
around me just because the word

372
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,320
I was in wasn't the greatest.
Like they're, they're nice

373
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,360
people, but I'm a little bit of
an oddball.

374
00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:02,560
And so I didn't really fit in
and I got on the outskirts of

375
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,040
everybody really, really
quickly.

376
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:07,520
So I, I struggled with the
people around me, but it taught

377
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,120
me pretty early on that my
testimony is my testimony, not

378
00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:14,080
based off other people.
And so I'm very grateful for

379
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,760
that.
When I was young, I was actually

380
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:22,520
abused, which didn't help my
social awkwardness around

381
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,240
people.
And so I was in a really dark

382
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,000
place in my life till we've
tried to like figure out the

383
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,800
timeline.
And it was either time I was 10

384
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,080
or 11 years old, we're pretty
sure 11.

385
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,280
And because I was so surrounded
by all this darkness, I was

386
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:46,120
trying to find light somewhere.
And so the first kind of like

387
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:49,440
dive into scriptures I ever did
was actually on Satan and his

388
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,920
demons and how to like deal with
the attacks and stuff at seven

389
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,400
years old.
And not anything like looking

390
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,320
through the scholarship or
anything, but just topical guide

391
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,040
going to find all the scriptures
associated with this kind of

392
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,840
thing.
And then when I was 11 and it

393
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,360
stopped, I had dissociative
amnesia for about 4:00-ish years

394
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,880
where forgot any of it ever
happened.

395
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:23,000
Like my mom kind of guessed she
didn't know, nobody really knew,

396
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,480
but my mom had kind of guessed
something weird was happening

397
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,040
and was trying to get me to say
things and I would just shut

398
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:31,560
down.
And she's like, well, she

399
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,360
doesn't say anything.
She doesn't say anything.

400
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:43,440
And then it was May of 2019, my
brother graduated high school,

401
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,720
and several of the memories came
back.

402
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,000
And one of the things when
memories come back after amnesia

403
00:24:50,360 --> 00:24:53,560
is 1, you suddenly not have to
deal with all the emotion of it.

404
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,920
And two, while most of them
would come back OK, some of them

405
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,800
come back a little skewed
because it's your perception of

406
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,600
the event, not what actually
happened.

407
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,880
And so one of the memories I
thought my parents knew because

408
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,240
they had been asking questions
and I thought I had told them

409
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,000
during that time.
And so now I'm in this space

410
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,960
where I think my parents know
and chose to do nothing about it

411
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,680
while also thinking I'm crazy
because if you forgot about it,

412
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,320
then it obviously didn't happen
because you don't forget about

413
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:31,200
something that horrible.
But turns out they did not know.

414
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,640
There had been some weird things
that they had asked questions

415
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,720
about, but I had shut down and
refused to answer any of them.

416
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,000
But yeah.
So that summer, summer of 2019

417
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,320
was probably one of the darkest
moments in my life because I

418
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,040
felt like I couldn't really talk
to anybody about it.

419
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,600
I felt like I was completely
alone.

420
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,120
I felt awful and dirty and
worthless and all these things

421
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:59,840
that come with sexual abuse.
And that summer I became

422
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,840
extremely depressed and
suicidal.

423
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,120
I got to the point where I just
about committed suicide.

424
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:14,280
And in that day, I kind of had
this thought of like you say

425
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,080
that you believe that God loves
you and you say that you believe

426
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,200
that God will answer prayers and
all these things.

427
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,080
You kind of have to actually
show it.

428
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,520
Like you say it, do you believe
it?

429
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:26,840
And you haven't asked God on
this.

430
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,800
And so I kind of prayed and I'm
like, OK, God, I, I need a sign.

431
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,080
I'm not supposed to ask for
signs, but I need a sign right

432
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,840
now because I'm really
struggling.

433
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,200
I'm in this really dark place.
I don't think I can keep going.

434
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,440
So please show me something.
And I just felt this

435
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,560
overwhelming amount of love.
There's a picture that I love

436
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,800
that I have around here
somewhere not close by,

437
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,240
unfortunately, where it's this
girl who's being held by Christ.

438
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,720
You can't see his face or
anything, but you know it's him

439
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,000
and he's holding this little
girl.

440
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:02,600
And that pictures kind of how it
felt like it was this

441
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:07,760
overwhelming amount of love that
he had for me.

442
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,360
And so that was my darkest day
of my life, but also my

443
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,000
brightest day.
And when that happened, I was

444
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,280
like, OK, you, you showed me,
you love me.

445
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:18,840
You prove these things to me and
everything.

446
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,800
You showed me the sign.
No matter how hard things get, I

447
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,640
will try to do what you want me
to do, which can be dangerous

448
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,320
sometimes because sometimes you
don't want to do the hard

449
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,200
things.
Oh, I yes I am.

450
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:39,960
I'm well aware.
Yeah, So then when school

451
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,720
started up again, I told a
couple of my friends about it.

452
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,640
But I'm like, I can't tell
anybody.

453
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,520
You can't tell anybody.
Like nobody believes me because

454
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:52,000
I felt like I've told people
before.

455
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:56,360
I feel crazy and they kind of
pushed me to tell somebody.

456
00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:59,640
I ended up giving a letter
because that's how I

457
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,840
communicate.
I gave a letter to my seminary

458
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,920
teacher and at the time we would
do like spiritual thoughts every

459
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,600
day in seminary where like he
would prepare something off like

460
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,000
a scripture or some gospel
principle you'd be thinking

461
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,560
about.
I wrote like short essays for

462
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,840
these because I was an odd nerd
child and so he thought it was

463
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,680
one of those and he's like, oh
I'm so excited to read this and

464
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,040
put it in his bag.
And I was like, that is not what

465
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,920
you think that is.
And then due to circumstances he

466
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,880
ended up not reading it for a
few weeks.

467
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,800
I think I gave it to him in
October.

468
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,920
He didn't read it till beginning
of November ish.

469
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,360
Maybe mid November, he started
reading it and then he came to

470
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,480
me and he's like, OK, I did not
miss reading it because of how

471
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:52,160
dark it was, because what I was
doing at the time too, I was to

472
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,600
try to process what I was
dealing with.

473
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:57,320
I would write in as much detail
what had happened to me and the

474
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,000
few memories that I had.
And so it was one of those.

475
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,080
And so he's already and he's
like, I can't read this and I'm

476
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,200
mandatory reporter.
And so he reported to the

477
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,160
police, but he's like, I just
wanted to let you know

478
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,560
beforehand in case there's
anyone you need to talk to.

479
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,920
But tonight I will be calling
the police and DCFS and all

480
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,440
that.
And so I ended up writing a note

481
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,280
for my parents, and that's how
they found out.

482
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,200
And that's when I learned that,
Oh no, they didn't.

483
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,280
No.
And so that all went to court.

484
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:43,760
I was the only witness to speak
because they couldn't verify a

485
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,200
lot of the other victims.
And the ones they could, they

486
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:52,800
decided were too young to speak.
So I was the only one to do so.

487
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,640
And then because of the time,
everything hits.

488
00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:00,360
We go into 2020, everything
shuts down because of COVID.

489
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:05,400
And so his sentencing ended up
being March 31st, 2020 through

490
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,120
Zoom.
So I was present for the

491
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,280
sentencing, but I was at like a
lawyer's building or something.

492
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,960
I can't remember exactly where.
I was not in the room with him,

493
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,560
which I'm incredibly grateful
for.

494
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:19,880
Your parents are helping.
You a lot this time?

495
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:21,800
Yeah, my parents are helping a
lot.

496
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,600
Basically all I had to do was
write a witness statement and

497
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,160
then be interviewed by DCFS,
which I thought lasted 30

498
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:32,360
minutes.
I was talking to my parents

499
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,440
about it a little while ago and
they're like, no, that interview

500
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,000
was like 3 hours long, which
means I've blocked most of that

501
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:39,560
interview from my memory.
I don't remember it.

502
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:46,240
I remember very little of it.
My mom was helping us a lot

503
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,680
personally.
My dad was the one dealing a lot

504
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,240
with the court and everything
like that.

505
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,240
So like huge props to my parents
or everything they did because

506
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,240
there's a lot more.
I'm not going to go into too

507
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,720
much detail with everything that
happened in that time, but huge

508
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,480
props to my parents for
everything they did during that

509
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:04,600
time.
So.

510
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,000
Yeah.
All right.

511
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,840
You know, they're first.
Thanks for being vulnerable and

512
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,480
sharing.
I know that can't be easy, and

513
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,120
I'm sorry you had to endure
that.

514
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:26,320
But there's a couple of things
that you said in there that that

515
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:33,680
I think are really good
parallels in life in general,

516
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,120
right?
That day you talked about that.

517
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,040
It was your darkest day, but it
was also your best day.

518
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,160
I look at the first vision a lot
with Joseph.

519
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:49,640
And we are quick as Mormons to
focus on the part where the

520
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,280
father and the son show up to
him as we should be, right?

521
00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,760
And I don't think we give
enough, enough attention to when

522
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,600
right before that where he says
I was almost enveloped by

523
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,160
darkness, right?
There was a great darkness that

524
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,440
was seeping in and it felt like
I was left to abandon.

525
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:25,280
That's a pretty dark day.
And then in a space of just that

526
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:30,200
fast, light appears.
And then it becomes one of the

527
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,640
best days not just for Joseph,
but the rest of the world.

528
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,640
Right, that so your your your
story there Michaela, I think

529
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:48,680
has a lot of parallels to that.
Let me ask this question and

530
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,600
Zach, just so you know, I keep
getting a message that your

531
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,880
bandwidth is is low my.
Bandwidth.

532
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,360
OH.
It's the Internet stuff.

533
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:08,560
The, the other thing that that
really jumped out to me was how,

534
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,880
how and where did you get the
strength to be the only one that

535
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,360
would be willing to talk about
this, right?

536
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,360
That's got to be a rough place
to be in.

537
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,800
Where did you summon that
strength from?

538
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,600
Few things.
I think part of it was my

539
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,520
parents.
My parents helped a lot and

540
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:34,160
being that support system there
for me, part of it was growing

541
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,680
up in the gospel.
We were never good at family

542
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:41,720
home evening, but we were really
good at scripture studies and

543
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,360
we'd wake up at like 6:00 in the
morning to read scriptures as a

544
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,600
family for about 30 minutes
every morning.

545
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:55,720
And then I've had some personal
experiences with some spiritual

546
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,600
things.
And one of my takeaways from one

547
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,680
of them is at before I say this,
people always kind of when I

548
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,160
tell them this, they kind of get
upset a little bit because

549
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,280
they're like you're, you're
blaming the victim, you're

550
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,000
blaming yourself.
And I'm like, OK, no, no, no,

551
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,400
no, no, no.
So to be clear, before I say

552
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,239
what I want to say, the abuse
that happened is the abuser's

553
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:15,280
fault.
It's not my fault.

554
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:21,440
But I do believe that I did have
some idea of what was going to

555
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,920
happen in the pre existence and
I agreed to it.

556
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,679
Part of what helps too is that
decision of amnesia.

557
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:34,040
I, I have viewed it for a very
long time now as God kind of

558
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,040
placing a veil over my mind to
protect me.

559
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,520
I there was a period in which I
was kind of upset because I'm

560
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,639
like, you had me forget all of
it and then remember all of it.

561
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:49,080
Why not just keep me forgetting
or why not keep me remembering?

562
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:55,080
And that my favorite play that's
also a book is Hell to Cities by

563
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,440
Charles Dickens.
And in the play version, there's

564
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:05,320
a song called Let Her Be a Child
where this girl, her father is

565
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,760
in prison because he's French
aristocracy during the French

566
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,680
Revolution.
And then they have this family

567
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:18,440
friend who named Cardin, who he
has the opportunity to either

568
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,720
just stay with the family and
take care of them, or he can

569
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:23,560
switch out places with the
father and save his life.

570
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:28,120
And so it's kind of this song
that they're both singing about,

571
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,400
OK, well, this is all about her.
What does she need?

572
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,960
And hands up switching places
with her.

573
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:39,640
But pry the lyrics are she must
have never wonder if God might

574
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,840
love her less.
And the whole song is about, OK,

575
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,800
she needs to be a child.
She needs to be protected and

576
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,760
saved from the dark things of
this world.

577
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,040
And when I heard that song, I
just about cried because it was

578
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,320
kind of this answer to this
thing I've been struggling with

579
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,560
for a while of God is like, OK,
you needed to be a child for a

580
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,600
little bit.
You needed to have some of that

581
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,040
innocence.
And because you're not dealing

582
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,400
with all of it because I, I can
know victims who remember

583
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:13,120
everything and it is hard and my
soul hurts for them so, so much.

584
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:19,080
But it was because I protected
you from a lot of these

585
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,440
memories.
You can stand here and say it.

586
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,480
And another thing that helped a
lot was the Psalms.

587
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,560
I love the Psalms.
I love the Old Testament, but I

588
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,160
love the Psalms.
And there's so many Psalms of

589
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,440
how my soul is in anguish, I'm
drowning in the floods, all

590
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:41,240
these different kinds of things.
But God saves me, and God's here

591
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:43,600
for me.
He is my strength, my fortress,

592
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,120
my aid, my shield, my buckler,
all these things.

593
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,520
And so kind of a combination of
all those things, mostly God and

594
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,520
the upbringing that I had
really, really helped.

595
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,320
And for anyone who is in a place
like some of the victims that I

596
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,240
know who do remember everything,
there's someone that I know who

597
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:07,560
remembers everything.
And she is so, so strong because

598
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,800
she also relies on God so, so
much to kind of help her with

599
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:16,280
all of it.
As you were dealing with the

600
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:21,680
aftermath of those memories
flooding back, you're now

601
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,760
suddenly in a place where you
have to deal with those, where

602
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,720
you have to acknowledge them and
work through them.

603
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,440
What did you do that to to help
that process along?

604
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:40,640
Was there counseling?
What what, what was the protocol

605
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,840
there to to get you back on
track, so to speak?

606
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,600
The fun fact that I learned when
your case goes to court,

607
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,880
especially if the person is
convicted, you get free therapy

608
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,640
a certain amount.
It's not like unlimited free

609
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,800
therapy, but it's so many
therapy visits for the victim

610
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:05,200
and the victim's family.
And so I did counseling.

611
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,720
I got to a place where I didn't
really trust my therapist

612
00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:13,960
anymore or just therapy in
general partially cuz I struggle

613
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,960
to talk to people.
And so I just recited the plays

614
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,240
that I had seen recently to her
and she's like this isn't

615
00:38:21,240 --> 00:38:24,520
helpful.
One of the things that's been

616
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,800
helping the most recently, cuz I
still struggle with a lot of

617
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,480
this, is understanding
psychology.

618
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,880
I did a lot of deep dives into
psychology, which you have to be

619
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,000
careful with because you can end
up with Med student syndrome and

620
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,640
then start assigning things to
yourself that aren't real.

621
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,040
But understanding psychology and
understanding where things are

622
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:51,000
coming from and then trying to
put things in God's hands and

623
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,440
go, OK, this is for you.
It really helped when I listened

624
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,440
to the episode you did on Oath
of Vengeance and that whole idea

625
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,200
of like vengeance is God's.
You need to put it in his hands

626
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,920
and just try and grapple with
that.

627
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,400
Sometimes I still struggle.
For me personally, it also

628
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,040
helped starting to write down
everything because it was a way

629
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:19,840
to eject it from my system.
I would not recommend staying in

630
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,720
that space though because
otherwise you end up dwelling in

631
00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:28,720
it.
Another thing too is there was a

632
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,960
YouTube video I watched a while
ago from a therapist who was

633
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,360
talking about this idea of OK,
there's victim PUD.

634
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,160
We have this victim PUD culture
that we love.

635
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,160
And especially if you've been
the victim of abuse or something

636
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:46,440
awful, it's really, really easy
to stay in that victimhood area.

637
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:51,240
And you're kind of justified in
staying there because everyone's

638
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,600
like, yeah, you're obviously a
victim, but it's really, really

639
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,160
detrimental to stay there.
And so the therapist is talking

640
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,240
about, OK, you have to move from
victimhood to Victor Hood.

641
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:02,200
I survived this.
I'm a survivor.

642
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,760
Like I've overcome this all
that.

643
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,240
And most people stop there.
And he's like, The thing is, you

644
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:13,280
can't stop there either.
There's also an advocate stage.

645
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,760
I don't think everyone
necessarily needs to go through

646
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,400
the advocate stage.
Maybe a little bit.

647
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,920
Some people, they actually like
go out and become advocates for

648
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,200
whatever it is.
I don't think you necessarily

649
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,720
need to go that extreme with it.
But it's that, OK, I'm going to

650
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:31,480
speak up for those who can't
speak for themselves.

651
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:36,200
I'm going to inform people on
this topic kind of thing and

652
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,840
he's like, these are kind of the
main 3 stages people end up in.

653
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,520
The problem is with these three
stages is that it now requires

654
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,000
your identity to be centered
around what happened to you.

655
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,000
I am a victim because of what
happened to me.

656
00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:53,200
I am a victor because I overcame
what happened to me.

657
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,560
I'm an advocate because I help
people who went through the same

658
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,640
thing I did or a similar thing
that I did.

659
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:03,040
Your identity is now wrapped up
in this thing that happened to

660
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,360
you.
So he's like, you have to, to

661
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,480
heal.
You have to progress to this

662
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,360
fourth stage of it's just part
of my life.

663
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:12,720
And so I've been working on this
project.

664
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:14,800
I'll probably talk a little bit
more about later.

665
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,440
And one of my biggest segues
that I've learned from working

666
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,480
on this is identity, that being
a daughter of God, you are a

667
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,120
child of God and you have worth
no matter what.

668
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,520
That should be your number one
identity.

669
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,440
And if you can understand that
and really take that in and

670
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,880
really assign that identity to
yourself as the most important

671
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,800
identity, then these other
things don't matter as much and

672
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,080
it's easier to work through it.
Absolutely.

673
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,560
You know, you, you touched on
something there.

674
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:50,800
I'd read about it at a different
place, but this idea of not

675
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,720
standing in victimhood, right.
And you said something else that

676
00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:58,920
kind of alluded to this when you
said, and again, not victim

677
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,440
blaming, but saying if if you
follow Mormon theology, I kind

678
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,520
of chose this right in terms of
I knew what I was getting into

679
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,480
because of the restored gospels,
belief in a pre existence, those

680
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,320
sorts of things, what people
don't.

681
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,600
Get.
What's that?

682
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,680
I, I was just going to say,
there's been a thing recently

683
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:22,600
that I've been hearing more of,
which I'm grateful for.

684
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,960
It's something I was raised with
with a what happened to you is

685
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,600
not your fault.
The abuse that happened to you,

686
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,680
someone being mean to you,
whatever, is not your fault.

687
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,680
What you choose to do afterwards
is.

688
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,760
And you have to take.
Accountability for what you do

689
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:41,120
after. 100%, yeah.
There was a book I read called

690
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,360
Extreme Ownership once by a guy
who was a former Navy, Navy

691
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,000
SEAL.
And that book, What's that,

692
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:49,800
Zach?
I've read, I've read.

693
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,400
I actually read that book on my
mission.

694
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,000
So I did read a couple books and
I don't see the book.

695
00:42:54,000 --> 00:43:01,880
It is fabulous.
Jocko Willnick Yep, look when

696
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,440
and it can be an uncomfortable
book, right, because it's going

697
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,720
to force you to look at yourself
a little bit, right?

698
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,200
But he talks about just owning
it, right?

699
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,920
Whatever it is you're going
through, you own that because

700
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,880
when no, as you talked about
Michaela, nobody should stay in

701
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,800
that victim space, right?
That should be a phase that you

702
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:33,760
go through when you perpetually
say this happened to me, right?

703
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,960
And that's all the farther you
go, you have no ownership of

704
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:38,840
that.
You can't work with that because

705
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:43,680
things happen to you, right?
When you take the accountability

706
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,400
afterwards, as you alluded to
here, and you quote own it a

707
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,200
little bit, own it in the sense
of, OK, this happened, I can't

708
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,200
control that, but I can't
control what I go forward with.

709
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:56,680
Well, that's a different thing
now.

710
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,200
Right now your destiny is in
your hands, right?

711
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,520
And somebody who did an
atrocious thing to you no longer

712
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,320
has power.
You have divested them or that

713
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,880
situation of all power, and you
get to go forward.

714
00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:17,400
I think that's such a key point,
no matter what we're struggling

715
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,840
with, right?
Whether whether it's something

716
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,600
as horrific as what you had to
endure or just dealing with our

717
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,000
own sins sometimes, right?
If we can take accountability

718
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,880
for that and just say, OK, I'm
moving forward here, right?

719
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,320
I'm going to leave this behind.
This isn't something that that I

720
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,000
have to dwell on.
I can move forward.

721
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,360
I think there's a lot of wisdom
there.

722
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:44,680
So, so you deal, you're still
dealing with it, right?

723
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:49,640
I think it's probably something
that is maybe lifelong.

724
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,360
I don't know.
I've never had to struggle with

725
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,480
those things, so I won't tend to
know.

726
00:44:54,800 --> 00:45:03,400
But once you start to heal,
what's how much does does the

727
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:09,080
atonement help in that process?
So, so much.

728
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:17,120
One of the things that so
shortly after the sentencing and

729
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,440
everything, we were out of town.
We were visiting a different

730
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,560
ward.
And so my mom decided instead of

731
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,560
going to the second hour, she
was just going to do a little

732
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,600
lesson with me and my sisters.
And she's like, OK, we're going

733
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:30,920
to talk about something.
We're going to talk about the

734
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,360
repentance process.
And we're like, OK, the

735
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,880
repentance process.
She's like, we normally think

736
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,800
about this just with sin of OK,
I have sinned.

737
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,200
I'm going to acknowledge that I
did something wrong.

738
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,160
I'm going to try to make amends
for it.

739
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,280
I'm going to try to seek
forgiveness.

740
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,720
I'm going to promise God I'm
never going to do this again, Go

741
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,800
to anyone.
I need to to fix things as much

742
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,440
as I can.
Then I take the sacrament and

743
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,160
I'm clean from it.
And she's like, The thing is, is

744
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,960
repentance is so much more than
just the sin, because repentance

745
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,120
is part of atonement.
It's part of turning back to

746
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,480
God.
It's to turn again to God and

747
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,360
align yourself with him.
And so she's like, this is true.

748
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,720
If you're the victim of
something that bad that has

749
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:20,920
happened, whether that's just
somebody was mean to you,

750
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,560
somebody slighted you in some
way or something as egregious of

751
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,720
abuse.
And she's like, what this looks

752
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:32,600
like for that side is you
acknowledge that something bad

753
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,560
happened and you place the
ownership and accountability for

754
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,960
that bad thing that happened on
the person who deserves it.

755
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,040
So like, for example, I like on
my abuser and I go, you abused

756
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:45,200
me.
That was not OK.

757
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,560
And then you look at yourself
and you go, OK, I need to learn

758
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,240
to forgive them.
There's a quote that I love that

759
00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:54,960
says, today I decided to forgive
you, not because you apologized

760
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,760
or because your knowledge
opinion cost me, but because my

761
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,520
soul deserves peace.
So you learn to forgive.

762
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,080
You learn to put at Christ's
feet and go I can't deal with

763
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:09,400
this, you need to take this.
Then you take accountability for

764
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,600
what you have done.
Did you act poorly as a result?

765
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:20,880
So for an example to get even
more vulnerable after all this,

766
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,640
these memories come back and
everything.

767
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,520
I also self harmed a lot which
is pretty common.

768
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,240
In the case like this, the self
harm is not the user's fault.

769
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,640
The self harm is my fault.
I chose to do that.

770
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:35,800
I chose to desecrate my body in
that way.

771
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:38,600
And so I have to take
accountability for that and I

772
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:44,200
have to repent for that.
And then finding this healing

773
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,280
and going to Christ, partaking
of the sacrament and the OK, I'm

774
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,080
going to be healed from not only
these wrongs I've committed, but

775
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,960
also setting down these hurts
that other people have caused

776
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,000
me.
Right.

777
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,520
No, that makes perfect sense,
man.

778
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,120
Your mom sounds like she was on
top of it, right?

779
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,080
Once she knew she was like all
over it.

780
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,360
So props to her for for doing
that work.

781
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:16,320
That's that's incredible.
OK, so now let let's, unless

782
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,040
there's something else you want
to share about those

783
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,160
experiences.
Let's move forward here a little

784
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,400
bit.
If you're comfortable with that.

785
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,520
If you, if there is something
you want to talk about again

786
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,160
with that, let me know and
we'll, we can stop here and why

787
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:33,720
you do that.
But so how do you find yourself

788
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:38,520
hanging out with on a Mormon
fundamentalist podcast, being

789
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,120
engaged to a Mormon
fundamentalist?

790
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,240
Let's go through that story.
Yeah.

791
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,160
OK.
So because I didn't want to

792
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,320
process, really deal or process
with anything at first, I kind

793
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,200
of threw myself into school.
I've always been ahead in

794
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,000
school.
I know this doesn't sound like

795
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:59,160
it really it does, but so I
ended up actually graduating

796
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,640
from high school a year early,
but because of that I didn't

797
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,840
finish seminary, and seminary
actually kind of all got screwed

798
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,000
up when I was in high school
anyway because they changed the

799
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,120
program from what it was to come
follow me.

800
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,640
So no matter what, I was missing
at least one book of scripture

801
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,200
in it.
And so I was actually supposed

802
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,280
to repeat doctrine.
Dr. incumbents was the first one

803
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,480
I did.
I was supposed to repeat it for

804
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,760
my senior year.
But they're like, OK, well

805
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,760
you've already done doctor
incumbents, but you haven't done

806
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,440
all testament.
So when you go off to college, I

807
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,000
wanted to go to BYU.
Both my parents went to BYU.

808
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,320
They rejected me.
I cried and ended up going to EU

809
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,720
So we're.
So lucky you don't even know

810
00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:43,200
what kind of bullet you dodge.
As a guy who went to Boise

811
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,960
State, we say every time a
cougar cries, an Angel gets its

812
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:47,320
wings.
So.

813
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,160
Like looking back on it, I'm
incredibly grateful and like

814
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,560
everybody was encouraging me in
that direction at the time.

815
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:58,600
I wanted to go into biomedical
engineering and then not too

816
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,160
long after that realized the
only reason I wanted to do that

817
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,600
is because they tell you in
school if you're a girl and good

818
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:04,840
at math, you better go into
STEM.

819
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,480
And that's the only thing in
STEM I really wanted to do so.

820
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,800
Gotta love the system.
Yeah, that's all.

821
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:15,000
Like I wanted to be a writer all
the way up until 9th grade, and

822
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,200
then they're like, you're not
going to make anything being a

823
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:20,240
writer and like you're good at
math going to STEM anyway.

824
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:25,440
And so it was like the last day.
So like there was a deadline and

825
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,040
there was like an extended
deadline period.

826
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,680
And it was like the last day of
the extended deadline.

827
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,920
But they're like, OK, And I put
everything in and like within a

828
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,160
week they're like, and you're
accepted.

829
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:40,280
And I was like, OK, like this.
This has to be from God because

830
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:45,440
like, there's no way.
And so I went there because I

831
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:50,320
was missing the Old Testament.
I took Old Testament and when I

832
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,840
walked in the Old Testament,
he's like, OK, I like talking

833
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,160
about all the things nobody else
wants to talk about.

834
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,400
The reason why I teach this
class every semester is nobody

835
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:01,000
else wants to and I love it.
And so we went into all the

836
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,920
weeds.
So we were supposed to get to

837
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,640
the.
I think it was the end of Second

838
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:10,280
Kings By the time we were done
with the semester, it took us a

839
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:15,320
month and a half to get through
Genesis and we I'd run the last

840
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:19,600
10 chapters.
So we had like three, 3 1/2

841
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:24,760
months to do it.
And it kind of opened up this

842
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,400
idea of, OK, no scholarship is
OK, let's look into the deeper

843
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,320
things, let's read more and all
this kind of stuff.

844
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:36,760
And so I took a testament from
him for two years, and then

845
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,240
anytime he would do another
class, I would take it too

846
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:44,600
because I love the institute.
I think the institute is great.

847
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:50,480
However, with where I am at, a
lot of it comes off as very

848
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,640
surface level to me.
And I struggle to pay attention

849
00:51:54,240 --> 00:51:59,520
because they're teaching to a
broader audience for wherever

850
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:03,440
you are, which is good and fine,
but it didn't work for me.

851
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:05,560
And so there were very few
teachers that I actually like

852
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,080
taking classes from because they
were the teachers who were like,

853
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:12,240
OK, ask weird questions and if I
can't answer it, I'll go look it

854
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:16,400
up kind of thing.
So the last semester he was

855
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,480
there, he did a class on
foundations of the Restoration.

856
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,160
And he's like, we're going to
talk about all the things nobody

857
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:23,880
wants to talk about.
So we're going to talk about

858
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,560
plural marriage.
We're going to talk about law of

859
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:26,680
adoption.
We're going to talk about

860
00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:28,840
hunting Snowmassacre, we're
going to talk about Meadows

861
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:30,400
Massacre.
We're going to talk about all of

862
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,440
it and any questions you have.
Is the course titled How to

863
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,600
become a Fundamentalist one O 1?
Was that kind of the like?

864
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,920
Was that the name of the course?
I mean, holy cow.

865
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,160
And like for every topic he
would do, he would put up 5

866
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:49,000
bucks on it.
The five bucks would range from

867
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,720
this is a very faithful
perspective on this event to

868
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:59,320
this is somebody who kind of
hates Mormonism perspective and

869
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,640
everything in between.
And so he's like, here's all the

870
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,400
sources.
So you can look at everybody's

871
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:06,640
perspective to this.
Like I'm honestly doing this

872
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,040
from the LES perspective and
this is the way that I'm going

873
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:11,240
to teach it.
But so like that was the first

874
00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:13,360
time I ever heard about the
second anointing.

875
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,720
It was the first time I ever
heard about women's blessings or

876
00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:19,520
anything like that.
And like he brought up all the

877
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,040
reasons and why why we don't do
it anymore and stuff like that.

878
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:26,080
But like, it was the first time
I ever heard about anything like

879
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,280
that so.
Cover Adam, God.

880
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:34,160
No, no, no, no, he did not touch
that or if he did, I don't have

881
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:35,640
any notes of it and I don't
remember it.

882
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:37,840
OK, so I was just.
Curious.

883
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:43,400
Yes.
I I have some thoughts I'm not

884
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,600
going to share because if
they're true, I don't want to

885
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:49,680
get him in trouble.
He is a very, very faithful

886
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,960
Latter Day Saints who sticks to
what they tell him to teach,

887
00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:57,920
other than the weeks he likes to
get up to.

888
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,040
That is within stuff.
He won't get in too much

889
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:01,520
trouble.
I'll tell you what we'll do.

890
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,960
We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll make
sure we edit out his name

891
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,280
because I don't want to.
Yeah.

892
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,560
I don't want to get this guy in
trouble because it sounds to me

893
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:13,480
like he's doing some great work,
right?

894
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,680
Like, if he's willing to dive
into those and then said, not

895
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,200
only dive into him, but say,
here's what I think, but you

896
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,520
should read this book from the
other side.

897
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:25,840
Yeah, That's a guy with No Fear
intellectually.

898
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,040
And I dig that, Right.
And so, yeah, that dude needs to

899
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,640
stay right where he's at.
He's doing a great work.

900
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,520
Yeah, he's great.
He's said some things that have

901
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:42,440
made me wonder if he has at
least considered Adam God, but

902
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,080
I've never heard him ever talk
on it and he stays away from it,

903
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,600
so I don't know where he lands
on it and I don't want to get

904
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,640
him in the truck.
I see those eyebrows movement.

905
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,880
I, I wanted since I've looked
into it, because it's, it's been

906
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,320
a while since the last time I
talked to him, since I've looked

907
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,120
into it, I kind of want to ask
him, but I also don't want to

908
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,080
get up in trouble.
And I know the people he hangs

909
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:04,400
out with.
So.

910
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,560
And yeah, anyway, so he was
great.

911
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:14,040
So we did the plural marriage
section and I was kind of like

912
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:15,320
looking at the things here and
there.

913
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,720
His focus is Old Testaments and
the ancient Israelite Tabernacle

914
00:55:20,720 --> 00:55:25,040
and things like that.
And so that's what I've known

915
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,840
for two years.
But I started looking at the

916
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:29,720
plural marriage.
I came across a source.

917
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,080
I have no idea who wrote it,
where it's from.

918
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,440
It was, I know it's from a
plural life in early Utah.

919
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:40,720
And that's all I remember about
the specifics of whatever

920
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:45,720
document I came across.
But it was a poor wife talking

921
00:55:45,720 --> 00:55:48,680
about her family, so her
husband, her sister, wife, all

922
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:52,840
this kind of stuff.
And it was just obvious the love

923
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,160
they had for each other and
this.

924
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:01,520
And it was very much like a, OK,
this is the true principle.

925
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:06,400
Like it wasn't some men decided
to make this up to like,

926
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:11,080
whatever, as you'll hear from
people sometimes.

927
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,560
But this was a true principle.
But we don't live or practice

928
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:16,880
that anymore.
And I got this impression of

929
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,000
whether this time for the next
you'll live this principle,

930
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,520
which freaked me out because I'm
like, we don't do that in the

931
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:26,720
LDS church.
So I'm going to ignore that.

932
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,160
And I'm going to go back to the
Old Testament Tabernacle stuff.

933
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:33,920
So how long ago was this before
you met me?

934
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,920
Before I met you, this was about
a year to a year and a half

935
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:38,880
before I met you.
OK.

936
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,440
I think it was a year and a half
before I met you because I did

937
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,520
one year of class.
Because he ended up leaving the

938
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,720
institute, they transferred him
to another center.

939
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:50,320
Yeah.
The teacher, because they're

940
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:54,440
supposed to like, rotate every
so many years or whatever where

941
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:58,280
they're at.
So he, he had hit his mark.

942
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,880
And so they rotated him to a
seminary and he wasn't going to

943
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,360
tell any of us.
I found out from another teacher

944
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,040
who was like, oh, I know that
you really like this teacher, by

945
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:09,560
the way.
Like tomorrow's his last day.

946
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,160
And I was like, what?
So yeah.

947
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,280
So I talked to him and he's
like, I just didn't think I

948
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:19,560
needed to, like, tell anybody.
And I was just like, OK, it's

949
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,200
OK.
He runs a podcast.

950
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:25,480
So like there's still ways to
like keep the content for those

951
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:31,160
who want to anyway.
So it was about a year and a

952
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:36,600
half of been doing institute
classes where I kind of like sit

953
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,680
down cuz I'm like, OK, I don't
really have anyone to talk to

954
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,800
about any of these things.
I, I don't know what to do.

955
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,880
And I, I just kind of like sunk
down.

956
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,880
The best I was doing was I was
working through who shall ascend

957
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,280
to the hill of the Lord, which
is an amazing book.

958
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:59,280
It's very long.
It's like 1000 pages long, but

959
00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:03,240
it's great.
It's, the premise of it is the

960
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:06,360
Psalms are the ancient
Israelites, the Tabernacle

961
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:10,160
script encoded and mixed up.
And then this is how you see it

962
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:11,840
through Christ's life in the
Book of Mormon.

963
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:16,880
It it's a great book.
So I was slowly working my way

964
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:21,320
through that, but that was kind
of about it other than like

965
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,520
going to church every Sunday,
regular scripture study, that

966
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:30,040
kind of thing.
And at the time, I was actually

967
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:31,840
waiting for a missionary to get
home.

968
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,200
I swore I wouldn't do that.
I told him before he left, I'm

969
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,200
like, I'm not waiting for you.
And then a few months into him

970
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:43,000
being on his mission, I got on a
date with a guy and the only

971
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,320
person I could think of was this
friend from high school who was

972
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,440
on his mission.
And I was like, OK, fine, I'll,

973
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:52,720
I'll wait for you.
And then and we would talk on P

974
00:58:52,720 --> 00:59:00,320
days and there were kind of some
signs before that kind of show

975
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,880
me this wasn't going to work
because like I try to tell him

976
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:08,280
about what I had learned from
being in my institute class and

977
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:11,480
like, hey, we should talk about
like a Heavenly Mother, Like

978
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:14,880
what do we know about her and
stuff like this.

979
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:17,840
And he told me he was down for
the conversations.

980
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:23,440
And then he started throwing up
quotes in my face of like, just

981
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:25,520
look at the gospel topics that
say that's all we know about

982
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:26,920
Heavenly Mother and there's
nothing more to know.

983
00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:29,560
Don't look into it anymore.
And I was, and so you're like,

984
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:31,600
throw those folks up in my face
and I'm like, OK, so you don't

985
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:33,200
want to talk about this.
And he's like, no, no, no, you

986
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:35,200
can talk about it.
And I'm like, every time I start

987
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:36,560
to talk about this is what you
do.

988
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:42,640
So there was kind of some signs
that it probably wasn't going to

989
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,160
work.
He's a pretty good guy.

990
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:49,120
And I, I don't know what he's up
to now, but I hope he finds a

991
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,160
good girl because he's a good
guy, just not the one for me

992
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,280
kind of thing.
And he came home, we went on a

993
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,960
date.
Going into the day, I was

994
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,520
already like triggered up to
high heaven because of some

995
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,360
things that had happened
throughout the week.

996
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,160
But he didn't really know that.
He knew I had been abused, but

997
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:09,720
that was kind of the extent of
it.

998
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:13,880
He didn't like talking about it
because dark topic obviously.

999
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:20,640
And so some things happened and
I told him like, OK, I need a

1000
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,280
break for a few days just to
think about some things.

1001
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:25,960
And he kind of pushed the issue
of like, if you're going to

1002
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:27,240
break up with me, just break up
with me.

1003
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:29,600
And I'm like, well, if I am
going, so I want to do so in

1004
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:31,120
person.
But first I need to separate

1005
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,240
what is actually like this isn't
going to work compared to what

1006
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:42,640
is just I'm triggered and upset.
And so we ended up breaking up

1007
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:51,720
in July of 2024, like mid-july.
And other than my best friend,

1008
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,680
he was the only person I was
talking to outside my family.

1009
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:58,960
So then I was only talking to my
best friend mostly through text.

1010
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,200
So I wasn't really talking to
anyone.

1011
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,000
And so I reached a point where
I'm like, OK, I have to be

1012
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:07,400
social.
I need to do something.

1013
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:12,040
And I had done dance when I was
younger, I did ballet and hip

1014
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:13,840
hop and all sorts of things when
I was younger.

1015
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:16,440
And I was like, you know what?
I I need to start dancing again.

1016
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:20,760
I love dancing.
And so August 31st of 2024.

1017
01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:23,800
I hate to interrupt, let's let's
pick this up again.

1018
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:28,480
But I do have a question, OK,
about the institute teacher in

1019
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:31,560
those classes you took, was
there anything he brought up

1020
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,480
there that like freaked you out,
right?

1021
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:36,800
Like at first you're like, not
sure I want to be touching that.

1022
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,080
Or was everything like kind of
brand new and fascinating?

1023
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,000
Kind of all brand new and
fascinating.

1024
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:47,440
Like there was stuff that he had
said before, things like the

1025
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,560
mountains Meadow Massacre was
kind of uncomfortable just

1026
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:53,160
because like the hard topic to
talk about.

1027
01:01:54,480 --> 01:02:03,560
I actually that was beside me.
Yeah, 2022.

1028
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:08,960
I have all the notes from this
class with me still and I was

1029
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:10,960
looking through them the other
day because I was trying to find

1030
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:16,320
something and like he went
through so much and he's like,

1031
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:17,560
we're going to talk about it
all.

1032
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:21,840
He gave the like LDS
explanations for why certain

1033
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:23,600
things are missing and things
like that.

1034
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,560
None of it really freaked me out
too much.

1035
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:30,320
It was mostly like, oh OK, this
is how things used to be done.

1036
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:35,000
But it did leave me with some
questions of like, like, I

1037
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:39,360
understand the reason why you
said we don't do women's

1038
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:44,600
blessings and others blessings
anymore, but like, why not?

1039
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:50,600
And then like, OK, like I guess
we got rid of Sluromerge, which

1040
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:57,920
I'm kind of OK with because like
we just don't do that, things

1041
01:02:57,920 --> 01:02:59,440
like that.
But like, nothing really freaked

1042
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:04,680
me out too much.
So did you ever like, sometimes

1043
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,840
when we learn about these
things, it's purely academic,

1044
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,120
right?
It can be fascinating, it can be

1045
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,720
engaging, but that's different
than belief.

1046
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:18,560
Did you find through this class
and going through this old, some

1047
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:23,200
of these older things that that
your belief increased to include

1048
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,200
them?
Or did everything just remain

1049
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:28,960
purely academic?
It mostly stayed academic.

1050
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:34,080
It helped with like, OK, like I,
I have a firmer testimony and

1051
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,480
the Restoration and Joseph Smith
and Brigham Young.

1052
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,800
Most of it was like brand new
information on things that I was

1053
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:44,840
unaware of.
So like I didn't know about

1054
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:46,400
second anointing.
I didn't know about women's

1055
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:48,440
blessings.
I didn't know about all these

1056
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,000
different things.
And so some of that was kind of

1057
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,760
just brand new.
So I didn't even know what to do

1058
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,200
with it because it was just
like, oh, huh, interesting.

1059
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:03,320
Really the only thing that
really I gained a testimony of

1060
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,240
more than I already had before.
Mostly it was just testimony

1061
01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:11,960
building was plural marriage of
OK, no, this is a true principle

1062
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,560
that was lived.
But I was also in the like LDS

1063
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:16,120
mindset that, but we don't live
that anymore.

1064
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:17,880
Sure.
True.

1065
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,240
OK.
No, I was just curious about

1066
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:22,640
that because it sounds like you
were exposed to a lot of new

1067
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:23,680
things, right.
Yeah.

1068
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,320
If if you have a seminary
teacher that's willing to be

1069
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:30,640
like, and this is the second
anointing like that's that, that

1070
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,680
seems like a a heavy load to
drop right off the bat.

1071
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:34,560
Yeah.
Yeah.

1072
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:38,400
But I know there were some
students who struggled with it,

1073
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:43,440
even just like Old Testament,
Like I would talk to a couple of

1074
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:46,080
them before or after class for
just a little bit.

1075
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:48,640
And like, that would be soon.
So we're like, this is not what

1076
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:52,680
I thought this was going to be.
Right.

1077
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:54,640
Yeah, totally.
All right.

1078
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:57,320
So back to the story.
So, so yeah, you get in this

1079
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,440
place where you're like, OK, I
got to get out and I got to meet

1080
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,000
people.
I got to do some things, and

1081
01:05:02,200 --> 01:05:03,800
dance has always been a big
thing to you.

1082
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:05,360
And then go ahead and pick up
from there.

1083
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,680
Yeah, so I was like, OK, I'll do
country dancing.

1084
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:14,280
And so I looked up places and
there's a few places in Utah to

1085
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:16,680
go and a.
Few months back, Justin Frankham

1086
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:18,880
had an idea to make learning
about the fullness of the

1087
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,400
restored gospel a lot easier.
It was an idea that once I had

1088
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:25,000
my mind wrapped around it, I
felt like it could do a lot of

1089
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,400
good.
Mormon Legacy Ministries is a

1090
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:30,760
multi denominational ministering
effort to provide a safe landing

1091
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:34,080
place for Mormons to land until
they find their forever church

1092
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:37,240
home, while at the same time
offering folks an opportunity

1093
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:39,880
for worship and fellowship.
Here's a little bit of what

1094
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,200
Mormon Legacy Ministries is
offering.

1095
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,640
Every second and 4th Saturday of
the month at 3:00 PM Mountain

1096
01:05:46,640 --> 01:05:49,360
Standard Time, a sacrament
meeting is conducted by Joshua

1097
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:52,080
Erickson.
Every Thursday at 6:00 PM

1098
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:55,640
Mountain Standard Time is the
Gospel Fundamentals class hosted

1099
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:58,120
by Eleor Walker and Braxton
Bogart.

1100
01:05:58,680 --> 01:06:00,680
Quarterly men's meetings are
also held.

1101
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:04,040
The next one of those will be
Saturday, February 14th at 6:00

1102
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:07,400
PM Mountain Standard Time.
There's a women's organization,

1103
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:11,160
and to learn more about that, go
to mormonlegacy.org and click on

1104
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:13,640
that link.
Finally, for a limited time,

1105
01:06:13,640 --> 01:06:18,080
starting February 2nd at 6:00 PM
and every Monday after that at

1106
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:21,360
6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time,
a discussion group will be held

1107
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,680
on the book The 5000 Year Leap
by Cleon Skousen.

1108
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:29,560
So whether you're an independent
Mormon fundamentalist, or maybe

1109
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:32,240
you're a Mormon fundamentalist
already in a group, but you want

1110
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:35,880
more opportunities to learn and
serve, or perhaps you're an LDS

1111
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,120
person wanting to learn more
about what your theological

1112
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,680
cousins believe, or maybe even
you're not a Mormon at all and

1113
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,000
you're just curious about the
faith, Mormon Legacy Ministries

1114
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,320
is the place for you where you
can go to learn all those things

1115
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:50,920
from the comfort of your own
home over Zoom.

1116
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:55,320
To get there, all you need to do
is go to mormonlegacy.org and

1117
01:06:55,320 --> 01:06:59,600
then click any or all of those
classes that are being offered

1118
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:01,440
there.
Again, that's Mormon

1119
01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:04,440
legacyministries.org.
Go there today and sign up.

1120
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,760
And all my life was in Salt Lake
at the time.

1121
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:14,680
So I was living in that like
close to Lehigh area, but I was

1122
01:07:14,680 --> 01:07:17,800
working in Salt Lake.
I was going to school in Salt

1123
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,320
Lake.
Anything even semisocial I was

1124
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:25,680
doing was in Salt Lake because I
also have climbed for years.

1125
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:31,160
I've client, I taught kids to
climb for like 4 years in Salt

1126
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:35,360
Lake.
So it's like, OK, where am I

1127
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:36,800
going?
It has to be in Salt Lake

1128
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:41,680
because that's where I am.
So Dusty Butte was like the one

1129
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:44,240
that came up on the list that
like seemed like OK, that seems

1130
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:50,400
OK.
And so I went there and I met

1131
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,200
him on the first day.
I remember he doesn't.

1132
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,320
But in his defense, he talks to
like.

1133
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:58,720
Tons of people.
Yeah, I, I was meeting close to

1134
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:01,120
like between 50 and 100 people
every month.

1135
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:04,480
Yeah, just because of how much I
was talking and how much I was

1136
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,000
trying to help everybody have a
good time.

1137
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:09,920
So.
Yeah, it's interesting that

1138
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:15,840
you're both, you're both
wounded, right as as you you

1139
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:18,120
find yourself at this one
location.

1140
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:21,920
Yeah.
And so when you first meet him,

1141
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:23,520
what, what's your thoughts,
Michaela?

1142
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:30,160
So I actually realized recently
that I had seen him and heard

1143
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:32,200
him talking a little bit before
I talked to him.

1144
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,439
But when I first started
actually talking to him, because

1145
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:38,640
he's there to help people learn
how to dance, at the time I'm

1146
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:44,120
showing up, he came up to me as
like, OK, you obviously need

1147
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:45,439
help.
You don't know what you're

1148
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:48,279
doing.
And so he was trying to teach me

1149
01:08:48,279 --> 01:08:52,120
how to dance very politely.
Yeah, very politely, because I

1150
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:53,760
was showing up to try to be
social.

1151
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:58,479
Anyone who asked me to dance, I
was like, OK, what's your name?

1152
01:08:58,640 --> 01:09:02,120
How long have you been dancing?
What got you in to dance?

1153
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:03,319
All these things.
So I'm asking him these

1154
01:09:03,319 --> 01:09:06,399
questions as he's like, OK,
these are the moves.

1155
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:08,800
And he's very focused on that.
And I'm like, OK, what's your

1156
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:09,880
name?
And he's like, yeah, Zach, I'm

1157
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:13,000
going to the moves.
How long have you been dancing?

1158
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:15,319
What got you into dance?
Oh, I did ballroom in high

1159
01:09:15,319 --> 01:09:18,880
school.
And then I served him at, served

1160
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:22,920
a service mission and then ended
up here after.

1161
01:09:23,359 --> 01:09:26,960
And I was just like, oh, a
service just no, you didn't say

1162
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:28,840
service mission.
You just said mission because I

1163
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:30,240
was like, oh, where do you serve
your mission?

1164
01:09:30,359 --> 01:09:33,880
And he's like, oh, you know,
like Missouri, Utah, Canada.

1165
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:37,479
And I was like, that's not how
service missions work.

1166
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:42,640
I, I've known a few people who
have served service missions and

1167
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:46,720
as far as I have known service
missions to be, they stay in one

1168
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:50,000
place.
I have heard about some people

1169
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:52,520
for service missions, they'll be
transferred to a place and then

1170
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:56,280
they'll stay in that place.
But like, I had a friend who had

1171
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:59,080
recently started a service
mission and her service mission

1172
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:03,520
was just at home.
So I was like, OK, weird.

1173
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:07,560
And I kind of got this
impression which never got

1174
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,000
before, just this impression of
OK, you need to talk to this

1175
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:14,320
person.
And I was like, OK, so the next

1176
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:16,280
week I came back.
Quick question, yeah.

1177
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:19,680
So I said mission and then
service mission after you start

1178
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,560
explaining that, right?
Yeah, because you said all these

1179
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:24,040
places and I was like, that's
weird.

1180
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:25,640
And you're like, it was a
service mission.

1181
01:10:26,040 --> 01:10:27,600
I'm like, that's not how service
missions work.

1182
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:31,520
As far as I'm aware, that's not
how service missions work.

1183
01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:34,840
And so I came back the next
week, talked to him.

1184
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:36,400
I don't really remember.
It wasn't much of a

1185
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:38,200
conversation, so I don't really
remember.

1186
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:40,280
And then I was like, OK, well, I
want to get better at dancing

1187
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:43,040
too.
So I'm going to start taking the

1188
01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:47,000
dance classes on Monday.
So it was Saturday, we met

1189
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:49,800
another Saturday and then the
Monday following that.

1190
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:54,480
So a little over a week and a
half later, he had shown up to

1191
01:10:54,480 --> 01:10:57,800
how it was an intro class.
It was one O 1 touch on up the

1192
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:01,880
kind of help out with OK, we
need more leads to help and

1193
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:07,160
everything and so we were
talking after and I was talking

1194
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:10,360
about the Psalms and who shall
send to the hill the Lord this

1195
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:13,160
book I was reading and
everything and he was talking

1196
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:15,760
about this other book on sermon
of the Mount.

1197
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:17,560
Yeah, Sermon of the Mount by
Emmet Fox.

1198
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:19,800
It's what I, it's what really
got into me and kind of

1199
01:11:19,840 --> 01:11:25,600
introduced me the what's what
I'm looking for the, the

1200
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:29,000
specifics of Hebrew and how one
word can actually mean multiple

1201
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:31,720
things at the same time.
So the context is very

1202
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:33,960
important.
Like, for example, as I like to

1203
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:38,360
say, like bread is not only a
loaf of bread, it's also a roof

1204
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:43,640
money, that kind of stuff.
And so when she started talking

1205
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:45,920
about Psalms and how the
language of that is so

1206
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:50,080
important, that's what really
got us to like, be very

1207
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,000
spiritually in the conversation.
Yeah.

1208
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,840
And then the owner was like, OK,
it's late, I'm tired.

1209
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:59,760
I need to talk to my instructors
before I can go home.

1210
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,880
Please go away.
But he, he was kind of nice

1211
01:12:02,880 --> 01:12:03,800
about, but he's like, you need
to.

1212
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:09,040
So I was like, OK, I'll leave.
And then I got home.

1213
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:11,400
And at the time I was working
swing shifts.

1214
01:12:11,400 --> 01:12:15,600
So I was working until 1:30 to
3:30 in the morning.

1215
01:12:15,960 --> 01:12:19,680
And then my best friend like
never sleeps because I, I work

1216
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:21,840
at a medical laboratory so it's
24/7.

1217
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:27,840
And so it was pretty normal at
the time for me to randomly text

1218
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:30,280
my friend in the middle of the
night or for her to randomly

1219
01:12:30,280 --> 01:12:33,400
text me.
So I got home, it was like 11:00

1220
01:12:34,200 --> 01:12:37,880
and I texted him the name
because we were following each

1221
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:39,280
other on Instagram at this
point.

1222
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:41,240
So I just messaged him the name
of the book.

1223
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:43,560
And I was like, the book I was
talking about was called We

1224
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:44,880
shall send to the hill of the
Lord.

1225
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:47,080
And then because of his odd
comments about his mission, I

1226
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:49,800
was trying to figure out if he
was LDS or not because I'm like,

1227
01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:53,080
well, you could be like creedal
Christian because they'll do

1228
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:54,760
like little service missions or
whatever.

1229
01:12:56,280 --> 01:13:00,760
And so I was like, by the way,
it's bicep LDS authors if that's

1230
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,400
an issue.
And he just kind of ignored that

1231
01:13:03,400 --> 01:13:07,600
statement.
And I was like, darn, because I

1232
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:10,520
was trying to figure it out
without the straight up asking

1233
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:15,160
him because I don't like asking
direct questions, I guess.

1234
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:21,800
And so then he talked for about
an hour about it before we went

1235
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:25,400
to sleep.
And so like 11 in midnight.

1236
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:29,000
And then I woke up the next day
and was getting ready to head

1237
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:31,960
into work.
And I'm like, I just texted a

1238
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:34,520
guy I barely know in the middle
of the night, which is not a

1239
01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,240
normal thing to do.
And if he has a girlfriend,

1240
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:41,160
she's going to be mad at me.
And so I drafted a text.

1241
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:45,080
So class is Monday, this was
Tuesday, but I draft this text

1242
01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:48,840
and I'm like, OK, I please don't
take this the wrong way.

1243
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:50,880
I just don't want to step on
anybody's toes.

1244
01:13:51,440 --> 01:13:55,480
But do you have a girlfriend?
And I had sent it to my

1245
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:58,360
sister-in-law first as a like
this doesn't sound like I'm

1246
01:13:58,360 --> 01:14:00,720
asking him out, right?
It's just no, it doesn't sound

1247
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:04,320
like you're asking him out.
So I sent it and then he's like,

1248
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:08,120
oh, I'm so flattered, but we
need to have a conversation in

1249
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:09,680
person.
And I was like, oh, he took it

1250
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:10,880
as me asking him out.
Yeah.

1251
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:16,080
So for me, a little bit here.
So throughout the years before I

1252
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:20,080
met her at Dust, Well, there's
only two years, yeah, that I was

1253
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:24,560
at Dusty booth.
I actually got asked out a

1254
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:29,520
couple times by different girls.
And because I am somebody that

1255
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:32,560
doesn't like to waste time or
anything like that, then I'll

1256
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:36,360
actually take them outside and
then like calmly explain, like,

1257
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:40,320
hey, I am very flattered that
you're asking me out on all

1258
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:42,800
this, but I'm going to live my
life this way.

1259
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:46,120
If you have questions or
anything like that, I am happy

1260
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:51,720
to address those.
But if you're not interested in

1261
01:14:51,720 --> 01:14:54,760
this, then we should not date.
We should not even consider

1262
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:58,080
this.
Yeah, gotcha.

1263
01:14:58,080 --> 01:14:59,280
So gotcha.
So.

1264
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,600
So let's stick with Zach for
just a minute here.

1265
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:05,400
So when's the first time you
really noticed Michaela?

1266
01:15:05,880 --> 01:15:07,880
Because it sounds like you met
her once and you forgot I.

1267
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:12,560
Think we met twice unfortunately
but forgot but the first time

1268
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:16,080
that I actually remember.
Yeah, you talk to lots of people

1269
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:18,040
I'm with.
An American person, you're good.

1270
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:20,720
The songs is what particularly
stuck out with that night with

1271
01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:23,400
how long we talked.
Like that's when I was like, oh,

1272
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:28,600
this person's very spiritual and
loves to talk about scripture.

1273
01:15:28,760 --> 01:15:31,800
That's something I love doing.
That's something that I've

1274
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:33,600
always loved doing.
And so I'm like, oh, this is

1275
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:36,120
just somebody that I can talk
scripture with and I can learn

1276
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:38,480
from it.
And if I have some insights to

1277
01:15:38,480 --> 01:15:41,560
add, then yeah.
So that was.

1278
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:45,880
That's really the first time
that I remember interacting with

1279
01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:50,480
her.
OK, All right, So like when you

1280
01:15:50,480 --> 01:15:53,720
get that text at 1:00 in the
morning, are you thinking she's

1281
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:56,040
gonna ask you out?
Is that kind of what your mind

1282
01:15:56,040 --> 01:15:58,720
went to, Zach?
Well, that was like 2:00 PM on

1283
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:00,160
Tuesday.
Yeah, that was 2:00 PM on.

1284
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:01,720
Tuesday.
And for me it's like excuse.

1285
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:04,520
Me.
Yeah, yeah, for me, Yeah, for

1286
01:16:04,520 --> 01:16:06,400
me, yes, that's what I was
thinking.

1287
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:09,160
I was like, oh, this is just
another one of those scenarios.

1288
01:16:09,760 --> 01:16:12,560
I will just tell her that I'm
fundamentalist and all this

1289
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:15,320
jazz.
She may not like it and just

1290
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:17,840
avoid me.
She might like it and like, you

1291
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:20,200
have conversations.
Yeah, just have conversations.

1292
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:24,000
And then we just end up because
that's what the normal thing

1293
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:26,400
was, that I'm still good friends
with many of the other women

1294
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:32,120
that did end up asking me out.
So I thought that's where it

1295
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:33,840
would just become.
It's just another one of those

1296
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:35,760
friendships I'd see.
And then we have a good dance

1297
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:42,760
here and there, but that it was
not expecting this by any by any

1298
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:44,760
imagination.
So.

1299
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:48,640
So this is a question for
whoever wants to answer it, but

1300
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:54,240
yeah, what makes it turn from
like like 1?

1301
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:57,000
When does the the fundy bomb get
dropped?

1302
01:16:57,160 --> 01:17:00,400
Right?
And then two like when do things

1303
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:03,680
like then become more than just
friendship?

1304
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:06,080
So.
That's a longer story.

1305
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:07,520
Yeah.
Richard gonna get in.

1306
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:13,720
So so Monday we have class
Tuesday I text him and he's like

1307
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:17,800
OK this is a conversation we
need to have in person though I

1308
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:21,240
am an anxious little bean.
And so I start coming up with

1309
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:26,040
every possible thing he could
say from like anything from

1310
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:32,640
like, oh, I'm married or I'm gay
or I'm not interested at all in

1311
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:37,360
you to like let's like properly
set up a date or whatever.

1312
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:42,120
Which again, I was not asking
him out because the way I am is

1313
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,600
I want the guy to ask me out.
The only way I'm going to ask

1314
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:50,040
out a guy is if I'm already
friends with him and he's like,

1315
01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:51,800
but we need to talk about this
in person.

1316
01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:54,680
This Saturday I won't be at
Dusty because I'm going to be at

1317
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:57,640
a competition, so I won't be
able to talk until next

1318
01:17:57,640 --> 01:17:59,800
Saturday.
Yeah, it's going to be two weeks

1319
01:18:00,480 --> 01:18:02,480
for my little anxious being.
Great.

1320
01:18:02,480 --> 01:18:06,360
I was going to die.
Because at the time I'm also,

1321
01:18:06,360 --> 01:18:10,120
and I still do this, I still, I
compete in national country

1322
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:13,800
dancing.
So and the whole time just

1323
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:16,800
having to work that out.
But then my schedule opened up.

1324
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:19,280
Yeah, so then on Thursday, he
messaged me.

1325
01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:22,200
I was about to walk into an
institute class and he messaged

1326
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,760
me and he's like, hey, by the
way, my schedule's cleared up

1327
01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:27,800
tonight.
I will be at Dusty Boo.

1328
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:29,560
If you want to talk, then we
can.

1329
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:34,960
And I'm like I almost never use
my PTO like I will make it work

1330
01:18:35,720 --> 01:18:38,840
because I am going to die.
And my Co workers are already

1331
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:41,400
like upset at me because I've
been losing my mind.

1332
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:47,760
And so I met him there and the
nights.

1333
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:52,640
So like they do classes at like
8:15 to 9:30 and then 9:30 the

1334
01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:55,200
social starts.
And then he had to be at front

1335
01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:59,840
desk at like 10 to 10:30 or 9:30
to 10, something like that.

1336
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:02,840
It was 930 to 10930 to 10.
Yeah.

1337
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:08,640
And so we couldn't actually talk
until like 101030 whenever it

1338
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:11,480
was.
And then the like, dance nights

1339
01:19:11,480 --> 01:19:13,840
usually go out till one, which
again, normal for me.

1340
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:15,760
That's the schedule line at the
time.

1341
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:20,560
And so he kind of takes me
outside and he's like, OK, just

1342
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:22,640
want to let you know a few
things.

1343
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:28,920
First is if this does lead to
dating, like it, it's going to

1344
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:30,680
be very cordial.
No kissing, no nothing like

1345
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:32,240
that.
Like this is very like

1346
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:36,480
traditional OLD style.
I want to ask your dad for

1347
01:19:36,480 --> 01:19:38,600
permission, all these kind of
things.

1348
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:41,520
And I'm like, OK, I'm pretty
traditional.

1349
01:19:41,520 --> 01:19:46,960
I make 1800s dresses for fun and
watch Gone With the Wind, which

1350
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:48,480
is 4 hours long because I like
it.

1351
01:19:49,320 --> 01:19:53,840
Like OK.
And he's like also, just so you

1352
01:19:53,840 --> 01:19:59,960
know, I have been married before
just in case that's a red flag.

1353
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:03,440
And my sister-in-law had been
previously married.

1354
01:20:03,440 --> 01:20:05,960
And so I'm like, well, it's not
necessarily a red flag.

1355
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:11,000
It depends on what happened.
Like if a marriage ended because

1356
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:12,920
you're abusive, that's a red
flag.

1357
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:19,560
If it ended because life happens
and life sucks sometimes, then

1358
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:24,080
that's a conversation.
And we had already kind of

1359
01:20:24,080 --> 01:20:28,680
figured that out because in
those like 2 days of me trying

1360
01:20:28,680 --> 01:20:32,680
to figure out what on earth he
was going to say, my best friend

1361
01:20:32,680 --> 01:20:38,080
and my sister-in-law
cyberstalked him and found as

1362
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:39,480
much information as they
possibly could.

1363
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:42,560
Welcome to a woman in my
generation, please.

1364
01:20:44,440 --> 01:20:49,040
And so he's like, OK, and then
the last thing is I am

1365
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:52,800
fundamentalist is not, well, he
doesn't say fundamentalist.

1366
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:56,920
He said I'm FLDS just because
that's the easiest thing for

1367
01:20:56,920 --> 01:20:59,360
people to recognize.
But he's like, but not Warren

1368
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:00,640
Jeffs.
I'm not that.

1369
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:05,760
In both started underlines
nothing to do with him.

1370
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:10,200
I have started out so many
invitations to come on the

1371
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:14,240
podcast with the line.
I'm a fundamentalist, but not

1372
01:21:14,240 --> 01:21:17,880
the Warren Jeff see kind, right?
So like, I get it.

1373
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:19,480
I understand.
Yeah.

1374
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:21,800
Yeah.
And so he's like, I wouldn't let

1375
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:25,320
the sway and everything if
that's a deal breaker, totally

1376
01:21:25,320 --> 01:21:26,960
understand.
If you have any questions,

1377
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:29,000
you're more than welcome to ask
them.

1378
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:31,920
I'm open to answering any
questions that you have.

1379
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:34,760
If you never want to talk to me
ever again, I completely

1380
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:37,560
understand.
And I was just kind of like,

1381
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:40,640
this is not one of the 50
scenarios I came up with in my

1382
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:42,840
head.
I am now shutting down because I

1383
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:45,080
don't know how to respond to the
situation.

1384
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:52,520
So I went home and I talked to
my sister-in-law and then I

1385
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:55,520
called my best friend and talked
to them both about it.

1386
01:21:55,800 --> 01:21:59,400
And when he said like, I'm
fundamentalist but not the

1387
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:02,840
Warren Jeffs kind, I was like, I
don't even know what that means

1388
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:06,360
because I didn't know that there
were multiple groups.

1389
01:22:07,120 --> 01:22:10,880
Like all I knew about it was
Warren Jeff's polygamy.

1390
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,720
That's all I knew.
And when I talked to my

1391
01:22:14,760 --> 01:22:17,520
sister-in-law, she's helped some
troubled youth.

1392
01:22:18,440 --> 01:22:20,280
She's worked at several
different jobs helping troubled

1393
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:22,680
youth.
And so she actually helped some

1394
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:25,680
of the Lost Boys that came out
of the Kingston group.

1395
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:28,240
And so she's like, OK, what
group is he part of?

1396
01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:30,640
And I'm like, I have no idea.
I didn't even think to ask that

1397
01:22:30,640 --> 01:22:33,040
because I didn't know that was a
question to ask.

1398
01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:38,200
And she's like, OK, that that is
a question to ask.

1399
01:22:38,720 --> 01:22:41,160
The interactions you've had with
him seem to be like, pretty nice

1400
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:44,720
and everything.
And then I'm also naturally

1401
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:46,880
curious about what other people
believe.

1402
01:22:48,040 --> 01:22:50,800
I mostly had LES friends growing
up.

1403
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:53,840
Every once in a while I'll have
a friend of another religion,

1404
01:22:53,840 --> 01:22:57,160
but I've always been fascinated
by other religions, what people

1405
01:22:57,160 --> 01:23:02,960
believe and why they believe it.
And so I was like, OK, well, I'm

1406
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:07,240
going to ask him 300 questions.
And so I started texting him

1407
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:09,960
questions and he's like, I do
phone calls better.

1408
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:14,440
I like never called anyone in my
life and tell us that that's not

1409
01:23:14,440 --> 01:23:15,920
true.
Like I did phone calls, but I

1410
01:23:15,920 --> 01:23:18,080
did not talk on the phone with
people hardly ever.

1411
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:21,240
My best friend and I, we texted
if we were going to talk long

1412
01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:27,880
distance and I started doing
like 2 to 3 hour walks where I

1413
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:31,560
would have a list of like 20-30
questions and I would just go

1414
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:36,240
through every question and he's
like some of them he's like, I

1415
01:23:36,240 --> 01:23:39,320
don't know, I can't answer that
question.

1416
01:23:40,760 --> 01:23:44,640
I did say.
It I got to pick, I got to pick

1417
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:48,280
Zach's brain brain for a minute.
What question do you remember

1418
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:51,160
that sticks out most of all?
The 300.

1419
01:23:54,440 --> 01:23:57,440
Probably more just like what
group, like what's the

1420
01:23:57,440 --> 01:24:00,880
difference between your group
versus everyone else is probably

1421
01:24:00,880 --> 01:24:02,880
the biggest one, the one that we
talked about most.

1422
01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:05,040
But it's interesting how like,
yeah.

1423
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:06,480
It's not what sticks on in my
mind.

1424
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:09,240
That's fair.
It was interesting how like

1425
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:14,760
literally the the next, like,
what was it?

1426
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:17,960
Would you say 3 or 4 weeks?
We're just you taking me outside

1427
01:24:17,960 --> 01:24:20,960
for like an hour to two hours as
we just went over all your

1428
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:23,000
questions.
Oh yeah, at least yeah.

1429
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:25,240
Like the next few weeks, every
time I would come to Dusty Boot,

1430
01:24:25,240 --> 01:24:27,600
like I would dance a little bit
and then we'd go sit on the

1431
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:29,840
grass and I'd be like, OK,
question, question, question,

1432
01:24:29,880 --> 01:24:31,440
questions.
Like, yeah.

1433
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:38,280
That's awesome.
Hey, so, so you, you guys are

1434
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:42,760
having these questions at some
point feelings got to start

1435
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,360
right, I mean?
Yeah.

1436
01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:49,200
Zach, when does it start
happening for you?

1437
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:56,920
So for me, I would say it was a
lot more gradual.

1438
01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:05,520
It's mainly after we had kind of
gotten, after those four or

1439
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:08,480
whatever weeks, I really start
praying about it.

1440
01:25:08,480 --> 01:25:14,440
But I'm like, if he doesn't
commit to the religion, then I

1441
01:25:14,440 --> 01:25:19,560
don't necessarily want a deep
romantic relationship with her.

1442
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:24,960
So that to me is something like,
I kind of always kept that in

1443
01:25:24,960 --> 01:25:27,760
reserve.
I kind of was like this could be

1444
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:30,800
an awesome possibility, but
let's keep that on the reserve.

1445
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:40,080
Probably I would say it would be
fully there after the little

1446
01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:42,360
experience that we'll talk about
a little bit later.

1447
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:45,080
I'm.
Talking about the one on.

1448
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:47,480
January, yeah, after that
experience, which we'll talk

1449
01:25:47,480 --> 01:25:51,800
about is that's probably when
things start to get really like

1450
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:56,840
this is this is more more likely
than not going to be a going to

1451
01:25:56,840 --> 01:25:59,880
be a thing.
And that's probably when.

1452
01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:04,800
Yeah, that's probably when.
Michaela, how about you?

1453
01:26:07,400 --> 01:26:11,400
I feel like it's a lot more
complicated because like from

1454
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:15,240
really early on, like one of the
first I met him, I was like,

1455
01:26:15,240 --> 01:26:17,560
well, I could see myself dating
him and everything.

1456
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:24,720
He likes to talk about religion.
He's smart, he's handsome, but

1457
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:29,080
I've also had any of guy friends
in high school who were smart

1458
01:26:29,080 --> 01:26:31,800
and handsome.
And so I'm more than happy

1459
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:34,600
viewing the message brother
figure if they're going to be in

1460
01:26:34,600 --> 01:26:42,640
my life kind of thing.
It was probably like a few

1461
01:26:42,640 --> 01:26:45,760
months.
And because I I think it was

1462
01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:49,880
before January that I was like,
Oh, no, I I do really like this

1463
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:52,920
guy, which kind of led to what
happened in January.

1464
01:26:54,640 --> 01:27:00,040
But I was like, but I need to
keep him separate because if, if

1465
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:03,440
I come to the place of God tells
me in the Sandy Elias Church,

1466
01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:06,400
then this relationship isn't
going to work.

1467
01:27:06,440 --> 01:27:08,600
And I can't, I'm not going to
force him to come along with me.

1468
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:11,440
That's not fair.
Yeah, that's another.

1469
01:27:11,440 --> 01:27:15,000
Thing too that we both at the
time were very prayerful, yeah,

1470
01:27:15,000 --> 01:27:17,080
this whole thing of like God,
where do you want us?

1471
01:27:17,080 --> 01:27:20,360
What do you want us to have
during this situation?

1472
01:27:20,360 --> 01:27:24,800
And we very much kind of prayed
with where our relationship

1473
01:27:24,800 --> 01:27:27,200
should be with everything.
Yeah, and I was more of reading

1474
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:31,800
like a bajillion things.
Yeah, she caught up to me like

1475
01:27:31,800 --> 01:27:35,120
within the first three to four
months of started reading

1476
01:27:35,120 --> 01:27:38,200
material that I wasn't even
aware of, just from the history

1477
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:40,280
and everything.
Like finding things.

1478
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:43,400
Yes.
So she learned very quickly,

1479
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:46,440
Yeah.
About polygamous history, Yeah.

1480
01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:52,400
Interesting.
OK, so you pepper him with these

1481
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:55,240
300 questions and he just keeps
cranking him out.

1482
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:57,000
Yeah.
Yeah.

1483
01:27:58,080 --> 01:28:03,400
What happens next?
Well, I read a lot of stuff, so

1484
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:06,200
I was reading like journal
discourses.

1485
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:08,240
I think I read A Woman of
Mormond.

1486
01:28:08,440 --> 01:28:11,160
During this time.
I was looking into a lot of the

1487
01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:15,520
history, all this kind of stuff,
and I compiled a lot of things

1488
01:28:15,520 --> 01:28:20,680
where it kind of became apparent
to me of like, yeah, marriage is

1489
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:25,720
supposed to be practiced.
But then also, like, I love the

1490
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:28,080
temple and everything.
I was endowed when I was 19

1491
01:28:28,080 --> 01:28:36,120
years old and the other temple.
And so the temple was very, very

1492
01:28:36,120 --> 01:28:38,040
important to me.
And so we're reaching this point

1493
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:41,080
where the only person I had
talked to about it, so the only

1494
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:45,120
people who knew was my
sister-in-law and my best

1495
01:28:45,120 --> 01:28:47,280
friend.
Those are the only people who

1496
01:28:47,280 --> 01:28:50,720
knew in my personal life that he
was fundamentalist and I was

1497
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:58,320
asking all these questions.
So I told them and I told my

1498
01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:00,000
sister-in-law, OK, I'm going to
tell them.

1499
01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:08,880
And she was just like OK.
And I kind of half ish told them

1500
01:29:08,880 --> 01:29:11,920
because I kind of chickened out
and.

1501
01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:14,240
How do you half tell somebody
that somebody's a

1502
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:19,440
fundamentalist?
I was like, hey, say no how?

1503
01:29:19,440 --> 01:29:22,240
Like I'm interested in looking
in other religions.

1504
01:29:22,240 --> 01:29:26,600
So I think from like time to
time, there's this other church

1505
01:29:26,600 --> 01:29:30,200
I'm going to go visit sometimes
and yeah.

1506
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:33,720
OK, All right.
So they're, they're thinking

1507
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:37,160
like she's going to go visit the
Episcopalians, when in all

1508
01:29:37,160 --> 01:29:39,360
actuality, you're like hanging
with the fundies.

1509
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:45,120
And like, I think there have
been some things that kind of

1510
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:49,040
tip my mom off because like also
a little bit before this, my mom

1511
01:29:49,040 --> 01:29:51,840
was like, I feel like two or
three of my children are going

1512
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:53,600
to leave the church.
And I was just saying they're

1513
01:29:53,600 --> 01:30:01,680
like.
And so then they got home and I

1514
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:06,800
went to Dusty Boot and my sister
or I think my brother was just

1515
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:08,600
like, oh, so did Michaela tell
you?

1516
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:10,240
And my mom was like, tell me
what?

1517
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:15,760
And so then while I was at
Destiny Boot, I got a message

1518
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:18,160
from my parents of like, OK, you
need to come home right now.

1519
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:20,280
They tried calling me a couple
times.

1520
01:30:20,560 --> 01:30:23,080
I don't have my phone on me when
I'm dancing because it's

1521
01:30:23,080 --> 01:30:25,400
annoying to have in my pocket
when I'm dancing.

1522
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:30,880
So I came home, they had an
intervention with me, which they

1523
01:30:30,880 --> 01:30:36,400
did in fact call an
intervention, which then led to

1524
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:42,160
them not being happy about it.
And kind of basically the only

1525
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:45,640
thing within fundamentalism I
had gained the testimony of was

1526
01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:50,080
plural marriage.
And it eventually got to the

1527
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:53,560
point where I'm like, OK, I have
so much pressure for my parents.

1528
01:30:55,480 --> 01:30:58,840
Like if it's only plural
marriage, like even the

1529
01:30:58,840 --> 01:31:01,800
prompting that I got was whether
in this life or the next, you'll

1530
01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:02,480
live this.
So.

1531
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:07,240
So maybe what will happen is
like, I'll marry someone who has

1532
01:31:07,240 --> 01:31:10,080
been married before and their
wife dies, or like, I'll die and

1533
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:13,040
he'll remarry someone else or
something.

1534
01:31:13,200 --> 01:31:17,160
I don't know.
And like, I don't want to lose

1535
01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:20,680
the temple and all these things.
And so I'm like, OK, I'm going

1536
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:24,520
to stay.
And I think there was a blessing

1537
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:27,600
and part of that too, of a, OK,
you need to make sure you're

1538
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:31,040
doing this for the right reasons
because I, I had developed

1539
01:31:31,040 --> 01:31:36,960
feelings for him.
And it that period of OK, no,

1540
01:31:36,960 --> 01:31:41,720
I'm staying in the LA church.
Help me to go, OK, what is my

1541
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:45,400
actual testimony and these
things and making sure that the

1542
01:31:45,400 --> 01:31:48,480
testimony I had was completely
divorced from him.

1543
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:52,480
Yep, smart.
So I'm grateful for that.

1544
01:31:54,760 --> 01:31:57,920
About mid January was when I was
like, I can't do this anymore,

1545
01:31:58,280 --> 01:32:01,000
can't talk to you.
I, I need to distance myself

1546
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:05,200
from all this.
And I kind of became angry and

1547
01:32:05,200 --> 01:32:10,080
bitter for a time a little bit
because like, he would try to

1548
01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:13,560
bring things up and it would
just start bites or I would

1549
01:32:13,560 --> 01:32:15,200
bring things up and it would
start bites.

1550
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:22,080
And so, and after I told him it
was a Saturday that I told him.

1551
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:25,800
And then on Monday he'd reached
out to me and he's like, can I

1552
01:32:25,800 --> 01:32:27,000
just have a conversation with
you?

1553
01:32:27,160 --> 01:32:29,680
And when he texted me that I was
actually at the gym with my best

1554
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:32,680
friend and she's like, this is
not a good idea.

1555
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:37,920
And I love my best friend.
She will support me forever.

1556
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:42,520
But also she does not like
fundamentalism very much.

1557
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:45,040
She's like, if that's what God
is telling you to do, what am I

1558
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:47,880
to say?
But also I do not like it.

1559
01:32:47,880 --> 01:32:50,600
And I'm like, that's there.
I'm not forcing you to come join

1560
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:51,520
me.
So you're good.

1561
01:32:53,640 --> 01:32:54,960
But she's like, this is not a
good idea.

1562
01:32:54,960 --> 01:32:58,080
And I'm like, OK, well, I'm
going to go see Beauty and the

1563
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:01,240
Beast at Hale.
And then I have dance class so

1564
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:03,080
we can meet in that little time
between the two.

1565
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:07,560
And so you'd shut up.
And he's like, I've hardly

1566
01:33:07,560 --> 01:33:09,720
slept.
The only thing that brought me

1567
01:33:09,720 --> 01:33:12,040
in peace was Psalms.
And you know the Psalms very

1568
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:13,280
well.
Would you be willing to teach

1569
01:33:13,280 --> 01:33:19,120
them to me?
And I'm like, OK, they can agree

1570
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:22,160
to that under some conditions of
one.

1571
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:24,440
There's at least one other
person there.

1572
01:33:24,440 --> 01:33:30,200
So it's more like a tiny class
class that I'm teaching and I

1573
01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:35,680
need some space first.
And so then we talked to a

1574
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:38,640
mutual friend of ours from the
time.

1575
01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:42,360
It was like, OK, you guys have
to go no contact for two weeks.

1576
01:33:42,360 --> 01:33:44,960
That's the only way that I will
be the other person showing up

1577
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:48,240
for this little group thing.
And keep in mind, this is where

1578
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:51,200
my head's at too, is during this
time.

1579
01:33:51,680 --> 01:33:55,480
I'm like, OK, if she's not going
to be in the rest of my life

1580
01:33:56,040 --> 01:33:59,560
because of what the Psalms had
done and everything, it was for

1581
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:03,640
me, it was like, OK, let me at
least have bats.

1582
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:07,560
And then we can then part ways
and then everything will kind of

1583
01:34:07,560 --> 01:34:10,440
go back to normal, is what I
thought would happen before I

1584
01:34:10,440 --> 01:34:12,520
met her.
So that's kind of where my

1585
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:15,480
headspace was at during tuition.
Yeah.

1586
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:21,520
So we went no contact for one
week and then we're like kind of

1587
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:26,080
ish talking again to set some
things up and everything.

1588
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:30,680
It ended up because as I started
working on it, I felt like I

1589
01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:33,520
needed to include more in this
and it was going to be bigger

1590
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:39,080
than I originally thought.
And so we ended up doing this

1591
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:42,680
class.
It was him and then two other

1592
01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:45,000
guy friends.
So it's three guys that I'm

1593
01:34:45,000 --> 01:34:48,080
sitting there in one of the
little rooms that a church

1594
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:52,400
building teaching.
And so I just started with like

1595
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:56,440
some basic stuff and there's
this project I've been working

1596
01:34:56,440 --> 01:35:02,120
on for like almost two years at
this point that I included in

1597
01:35:02,120 --> 01:35:03,480
part of it too.
We ended up never actually

1598
01:35:03,480 --> 01:35:04,960
getting to solves.
No, we didn't.

1599
01:35:05,480 --> 01:35:06,920
He still has yet to teach
figures.

1600
01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:12,480
Yeah, cuz we were like, I was
like, OK, we'll start with the

1601
01:35:12,480 --> 01:35:14,400
basics.
We'll start with like, OK, we

1602
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:15,800
need to understand what
symbolism is.

1603
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:18,240
We need to understand faith,
health, charity, all these

1604
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:21,400
things.
So we went through a lot of

1605
01:35:21,400 --> 01:35:26,880
basics and everything, and
during this time too, I'm like,

1606
01:35:26,880 --> 01:35:30,760
OK, these topics are off limits
because if we bring them up, we

1607
01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:34,120
just wipe out them.
Which I completely agree to.

1608
01:35:34,240 --> 01:35:35,800
Yeah, it's like, OK then, no
more.

1609
01:35:35,880 --> 01:35:38,080
Yeah.
But what I didn't tell anybody

1610
01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:40,600
is I was still kind of looking
stuff up on the side.

1611
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:44,640
And the reason I was doing that
was, OK, well, I started getting

1612
01:35:44,640 --> 01:35:47,600
a testimony in these things, or
I did gain the testimonies in

1613
01:35:47,600 --> 01:35:51,040
things, but in order to be in
the Elias church, certain things

1614
01:35:51,040 --> 01:35:52,960
have to be wrong.
And so I need to prove them

1615
01:35:52,960 --> 01:35:54,840
wrong and I need to show why
they're wrong.

1616
01:35:55,360 --> 01:35:58,920
And so I was still looking into
a lot of stuff, trying to prove

1617
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:04,000
it wrong, which was adding to my
anger and bitterness.

1618
01:36:06,000 --> 01:36:11,240
And then he sent me an episode
of your podcast, which was funny

1619
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:15,360
because when I first saw it, I
actually recognized the little

1620
01:36:15,360 --> 01:36:20,120
thumbnail thing for it because
about a year before I met him,

1621
01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:23,320
it was after my institute
teacher had been transferred to

1622
01:36:23,320 --> 01:36:27,200
a seminary.
I've been looking for podcasts

1623
01:36:27,200 --> 01:36:28,640
because I'm like, I need
something.

1624
01:36:29,840 --> 01:36:35,200
And I had I, I was getting this
institute podcast and some other

1625
01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:36,840
podcasts.
I actually came across your

1626
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:39,800
podcast.
I almost clicked on it and it

1627
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:43,440
was just a like, no, you have
enough podcasts now.

1628
01:36:43,440 --> 01:36:44,800
You can come back to this one
later.

1629
01:36:45,240 --> 01:36:48,720
And I was just like, OK, and
then just kind of forgot about

1630
01:36:48,720 --> 01:36:49,720
it.
And so when he sent it to me,

1631
01:36:49,720 --> 01:36:52,840
I'm like, oh, I recognize the
symbol and everything.

1632
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:57,240
And it was the one you did with
Isaac on ceilings by the temple.

1633
01:36:57,600 --> 01:36:59,600
And he's like, well, and he sent
it to me.

1634
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:02,240
And he's like, we can agree that
the temple is good and we love

1635
01:37:02,240 --> 01:37:04,320
the temple and everything.
And you'll find this

1636
01:37:04,320 --> 01:37:06,840
interesting.
So I was like, OK, whatever.

1637
01:37:07,120 --> 01:37:09,040
And I worked at a job where I
get to listen to stuff all day,

1638
01:37:09,040 --> 01:37:12,600
which is part of why I consume
so much information is because I

1639
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:15,800
listen to stuff all day.
So I listened to that and then I

1640
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:16,880
was like, oh, this is really
good.

1641
01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:18,000
I'm going to listen to some
more.

1642
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:23,760
So I listened to others from
from the Temple series that you

1643
01:37:23,760 --> 01:37:27,160
did.
And like somehow part of me

1644
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:30,680
didn't fully catch on that it
was a fundamentalist podcast.

1645
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:33,320
Like part of me knew, but also
part of me didn't fully catch on

1646
01:37:33,320 --> 01:37:38,000
yet for some reason.
And I just got this wrong thing

1647
01:37:38,000 --> 01:37:41,600
of, OK, you know, you want to
know what to listen to next

1648
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:43,480
because you've finished these
and everything.

1649
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:46,120
Go back to the very first
episode and start there.

1650
01:37:46,120 --> 01:37:47,760
Listen to the very first
episode.

1651
01:37:48,360 --> 01:37:49,760
And I was like.
I'm.

1652
01:37:50,120 --> 01:37:52,320
Sure.
And so like, I scroll back to

1653
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:53,720
the beginning and it's Adam
gone.

1654
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:59,520
And a few things leading up to
this, I had a high comprehension

1655
01:37:59,520 --> 01:38:02,680
speed.
I've been testing out of reading

1656
01:38:02,680 --> 01:38:06,320
tests since the 2nd grade.
I read Sense and Sensibility in

1657
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:07,920
fifth grade for fun because I'm
weird.

1658
01:38:09,440 --> 01:38:13,480
And that that's just to say that
like, I understand what I read,

1659
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:16,200
but anytime I'd ever tried to
look into Adam God, I could not

1660
01:38:16,200 --> 01:38:17,560
understand a single word on the
page.

1661
01:38:18,000 --> 01:38:24,000
I could not comprehend anything.
And then also my, my dad served

1662
01:38:24,000 --> 01:38:27,760
his LDS mission in Canada where
he had come across people who

1663
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:31,000
would either use this as like an
argument against the church or

1664
01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:33,280
something.
I'm not exactly sure, but he

1665
01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:35,120
would have to argue people on
this all the time on this

1666
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:37,320
mission.
And so when my parents had heard

1667
01:38:37,320 --> 01:38:40,040
that I was reading the Journal
of Discourses, they're like, OK,

1668
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:42,720
well, there's lots of good stuff
in there, but also be careful

1669
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:43,760
because there's some weird stuff
in there.

1670
01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:45,080
And I was like, what weird
stuff?

1671
01:38:45,080 --> 01:38:47,320
And they're like, well, you
know, there's like Adam God

1672
01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:49,040
theory and like, it's just
wrong.

1673
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:51,560
And I'm like, well, you don't
need to worry about that because

1674
01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:56,480
I've tried reading about it a
couple times and like, my brain

1675
01:38:56,480 --> 01:39:00,080
just does not comprehend like,
so I'm not going to read

1676
01:39:00,120 --> 01:39:01,640
anything on that.
You don't need to worry.

1677
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:04,960
And it was one of the questions
I had asked him actually was,

1678
01:39:04,960 --> 01:39:07,280
OK, where do you stand on out of
God?

1679
01:39:07,880 --> 01:39:10,760
And he's like, I don't know
enough at this time to try to

1680
01:39:10,760 --> 01:39:14,360
explain it to you.
And that was kind of where he

1681
01:39:14,360 --> 01:39:15,720
left.
It was like very little

1682
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:17,880
explanation and like, I really
can't.

1683
01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:22,080
And so I was just like, OK, this
is weird to feel prompted to

1684
01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:25,560
listen to because this has never
worked, but sure, why not?

1685
01:39:25,920 --> 01:39:30,440
So I listened to Part 1, Part 2,
overwhelmed with the spirit of

1686
01:39:30,440 --> 01:39:34,960
like, this is true.
And I was just like, Oh no.

1687
01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:40,440
Oh crap.
I can't have a testimony of this

1688
01:39:40,440 --> 01:39:44,520
and really be in the church, at
least with the way some people

1689
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:48,080
are.
I've not been excommunicated

1690
01:39:48,080 --> 01:39:52,360
yet.
I did talk to my Bishop about it

1691
01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:53,960
at one point.
And he's just like, I don't

1692
01:39:53,960 --> 01:39:56,680
understand what your issue is.
I don't understand why this is a

1693
01:39:57,840 --> 01:39:59,680
why you would even possibly
believe this.

1694
01:39:59,680 --> 01:40:05,120
But anyway.
And so the day that I listened

1695
01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:08,080
to that was also the day that I
was holding one of these little

1696
01:40:08,080 --> 01:40:13,640
classes.
And so at the end of it, I was

1697
01:40:13,640 --> 01:40:16,240
like, OK, he's like, I need to
talk to you because I just had a

1698
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:18,800
huge paradigm shift and I need
to talk to someone about it.

1699
01:40:20,360 --> 01:40:24,000
And I was supposed to go to a
game night with some friends

1700
01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:26,400
from high school that my best
friend was hosting.

1701
01:40:26,680 --> 01:40:28,400
And I was like, I'm so sorry.
Something came up.

1702
01:40:28,400 --> 01:40:32,040
I can't be there.
And she was like, OK, but I do

1703
01:40:32,040 --> 01:40:34,520
stuff with my best friend every
week, so it's fine.

1704
01:40:35,560 --> 01:40:38,600
She's gotten over it.
And so we talked for a few

1705
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:40,240
hours.
And I was just like, OK, this is

1706
01:40:40,240 --> 01:40:43,880
what I listened to today, Brad.
Here wasn't at 5 by the time we

1707
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:48,120
said it was done.
No, 'cause cross ended at 7 and

1708
01:40:48,120 --> 01:40:51,520
I think I went home at 9 or 10.
So it was only two or three

1709
01:40:51,520 --> 01:40:53,160
hours.
OK, fair.

1710
01:40:53,160 --> 01:40:57,280
Not so about two or three hours.
We just went to a park and

1711
01:40:57,280 --> 01:40:59,200
walked around in circles and
talked about it, 'cause I'm

1712
01:40:59,200 --> 01:41:05,000
like, OK, I, I can't stay
forever anymore.

1713
01:41:05,200 --> 01:41:08,720
Like for now, I, I, I do need to
be in the LDS church, but I

1714
01:41:08,720 --> 01:41:12,880
can't keep fighting this because
if I find it, then I'm fighting

1715
01:41:12,880 --> 01:41:18,840
God and I can't fight God.
And so, yeah, so then I listen

1716
01:41:18,840 --> 01:41:22,360
to every, not every, all but 15
episodes of your podcast in the

1717
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:26,720
next four months because I.
Pay attention to the guests,

1718
01:41:26,720 --> 01:41:29,920
don't pay attention so much to
me and you'll be fine Pay

1719
01:41:29,920 --> 01:41:33,200
attention to the guys who are
really smart to come on here so

1720
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:35,240
I.
Enjoy your insights, I find them

1721
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:36,720
both hilarious.
And insightful.

1722
01:41:37,320 --> 01:41:42,360
So I've listened to the Adam God
episodes I think 6 Times Now.

1723
01:41:42,440 --> 01:41:48,120
The John Taylor episodes five
Times Now and then the Joseph

1724
01:41:48,120 --> 01:41:54,520
Messer, Joseph White Messer ones
three Times Now as I was like.

1725
01:41:54,560 --> 01:41:57,280
Shout out to Jacob Badrine and
Michael Ness, they hit that out.

1726
01:41:57,280 --> 01:42:00,960
Of the park.
Yeah, I'm like, OK, how much of

1727
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:03,880
this can I actually remember and
keep in my head?

1728
01:42:04,040 --> 01:42:06,600
Yeah, so much was so good.
Yeah.

1729
01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:12,000
And so I started going to the
YSA and before I started going

1730
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:16,880
to YSA, my mom made me promise
her that I would never say that

1731
01:42:16,880 --> 01:42:20,120
I was going to the YSA.
Well, actually going to a

1732
01:42:20,120 --> 01:42:24,400
fundamentalist meeting.
And so I was like, OK, I can

1733
01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:28,040
agree to that.
And then like, and that was that

1734
01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:33,440
started in January.
And so like for the next two to

1735
01:42:33,440 --> 01:42:36,200
three months, like that wasn't
an issue.

1736
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:41,160
And then?
Just just before we move on from

1737
01:42:41,160 --> 01:42:45,840
Adam God, one question that I've
heard that I feel like it needs

1738
01:42:45,840 --> 01:42:52,160
to be in here is people wonder
why sometimes that they try to

1739
01:42:52,160 --> 01:42:58,160
look intellectually for Adam God
and it doesn't work that way.

1740
01:42:58,680 --> 01:43:06,120
It has to be from the Spirit and
God's not going to give

1741
01:43:06,120 --> 01:43:09,080
knowledge if the person is not
willing to receive it in their

1742
01:43:09,080 --> 01:43:12,680
heart.
That's something that is so

1743
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:18,320
crucial with anything that God
does because as the Scriptures

1744
01:43:18,320 --> 01:43:21,720
say, you can give a gift, but
you can't force a gift.

1745
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:27,520
And it's not good for the
receiver to curse the gift

1746
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:29,560
giver.
It's something that God's just

1747
01:43:29,560 --> 01:43:32,400
not going to do.
And so with Adam, God

1748
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:39,200
specifically is the question has
to be asked, are you wanting the

1749
01:43:39,200 --> 01:43:43,200
implications of it being true in
order to receive?

1750
01:43:44,880 --> 01:43:47,160
You know, that's that's an
excellent point because when I

1751
01:43:47,160 --> 01:43:51,400
came, I remember when I accepted
Adam, God, I couldn't explain it

1752
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:54,040
to anybody to save.
My God.

1753
01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:56,760
Right.
I just couldn't.

1754
01:43:57,520 --> 01:44:00,960
However, because I prayed about
it and received a witness, I

1755
01:44:00,960 --> 01:44:05,640
knew it was true, right?
But a few months after I

1756
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:09,600
accepted it and got comfortable
with it, after I got my answer,

1757
01:44:10,000 --> 01:44:12,480
all the sudden things start
coming out of the Scriptures

1758
01:44:12,480 --> 01:44:15,400
where I'm like, there it is,
right?

1759
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:18,760
Like it's there.
But we need to remember that

1760
01:44:18,800 --> 01:44:22,400
that Adam, God is one of those
things that was termed in the

1761
01:44:22,400 --> 01:44:25,600
early days of the Restoration as
the mysteries of godliness,

1762
01:44:26,080 --> 01:44:29,120
right?
And so I think it's a tender

1763
01:44:29,120 --> 01:44:34,280
mercy of the Lord that he keeps
those things hidden until you

1764
01:44:34,280 --> 01:44:37,120
get to that point of being
mature enough spiritually to

1765
01:44:37,120 --> 01:44:39,760
handle that.
And then you can receive the

1766
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:41,440
witness.
Then you can go off

1767
01:44:41,440 --> 01:44:43,520
intellectually.
And I've tried to tell people

1768
01:44:43,520 --> 01:44:48,120
all the time, if you can't wrap
your mind around it, stop.

1769
01:44:48,680 --> 01:44:51,200
Just stop.
Hit your knees and then ask if

1770
01:44:51,200 --> 01:44:53,840
it's true.
And then your proofs will come

1771
01:44:53,840 --> 01:44:56,240
after that.
And it's counterintuitive, but

1772
01:44:56,240 --> 01:44:59,640
it does kind of follow what we
see in the Pearl Great price

1773
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:02,800
with Adam, right where he's
offering sacrifices and the

1774
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:05,080
Angel shows up and goes, why are
you offering sacrifices?

1775
01:45:05,080 --> 01:45:09,880
He's like, because God told me
to and he's like, OK, now let me

1776
01:45:10,040 --> 01:45:13,400
let me in on let, let me let you
in on the secret here, right?

1777
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:16,200
Yeah.
Adam, God works much the same

1778
01:45:16,200 --> 01:45:17,360
way.
Yeah.

1779
01:45:17,440 --> 01:45:21,600
And for those who don't know,
brief, very brief overview is

1780
01:45:21,600 --> 01:45:26,520
that you have Adam, who is our
current godfather of both body

1781
01:45:26,520 --> 01:45:29,640
and spirit.
Then he is also working with his

1782
01:45:29,640 --> 01:45:33,200
father, and then so on and so
forth in the Council of Gods.

1783
01:45:33,880 --> 01:45:35,520
It's a family business.
Yeah.

1784
01:45:35,520 --> 01:45:38,440
Family business is a wonderful
way to describe that, Yeah.

1785
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:40,920
Absolutely.
Anyway, didn't mean to interrupt

1786
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:41,880
you, Michaela.
Go ahead.

1787
01:45:43,280 --> 01:45:48,480
Yeah.
So April conference that they

1788
01:45:48,480 --> 01:45:52,680
do.
I attended the BBQ form and it

1789
01:45:52,680 --> 01:45:56,120
was really interesting going to
that because it was the first

1790
01:45:56,120 --> 01:45:58,840
time I had ever really felt
community at church before,

1791
01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:02,240
which was funny because it
wasn't even like actual church.

1792
01:46:02,240 --> 01:46:06,720
It was a barbecue.
And I didn't go to the actual

1793
01:46:06,720 --> 01:46:08,360
meeting itself because I wasn't
able to.

1794
01:46:10,840 --> 01:46:15,280
But yeah, that was really good.
And then kind of things

1795
01:46:15,280 --> 01:46:22,880
progressed and then set up a
meeting for my dad to talk to

1796
01:46:22,880 --> 01:46:28,360
him in July.
The first one was July and then

1797
01:46:28,360 --> 01:46:32,600
the second one was August.
Yeah, 7 hour meeting.

1798
01:46:33,440 --> 01:46:35,440
That's supposed to be like a get
to know you thing.

1799
01:46:35,840 --> 01:46:41,880
I left three hours in because I
had to work in the morning and

1800
01:46:42,280 --> 01:46:44,400
it was supposed to be like a get
to know you thing.

1801
01:46:44,400 --> 01:46:48,760
It kind of turned into a
theological debate, and that's

1802
01:46:48,760 --> 01:46:54,680
what most of the conversations
have turned into, which again, I

1803
01:46:54,680 --> 01:47:01,200
don't like For the second one,
the one in August, we went in

1804
01:47:01,200 --> 01:47:05,680
with, OK, you're going to come
and ask for a blessing.

1805
01:47:05,720 --> 01:47:09,000
But if he says no, then oh wow,
we're let.

1806
01:47:09,080 --> 01:47:11,760
Him know.
What we're doing it what we're

1807
01:47:11,760 --> 01:47:15,480
going to date, but we would
prefer your blessing.

1808
01:47:15,480 --> 01:47:18,960
But if you're not going to give
it, OK, because that's not

1809
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:20,600
going.
To get at least we owe you the

1810
01:47:20,600 --> 01:47:22,280
common courtesy of what we're
doing.

1811
01:47:22,720 --> 01:47:24,640
Yeah, at the very least, we're
not trying.

1812
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:33,480
As a dad of of three daughters,
here's what I can tell you.

1813
01:47:35,040 --> 01:47:38,480
If the only thing you were ever
exposed to as far as

1814
01:47:38,480 --> 01:47:43,360
fundamentalism is what came out
of Short Creek during Lauren's

1815
01:47:43,360 --> 01:47:46,320
reign, I get it.
Yeah, I don't.

1816
01:47:46,600 --> 01:47:51,040
Fault your parents one bit right
I would if if knowing knowing

1817
01:47:51,040 --> 01:47:55,440
who I am and if the shoe was on
the other foot, I'd probably be

1818
01:47:55,440 --> 01:48:00,280
like what in the bluest of blue
Hells are you doing like this is

1819
01:48:00,280 --> 01:48:02,200
this is dangerous.
Don't, don't do this.

1820
01:48:02,280 --> 01:48:07,640
So I, you know, I, I have some
sympathy for your folks there,

1821
01:48:07,640 --> 01:48:10,960
right?
Because, because if that's all

1822
01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:13,800
you know, right, you don't know
about this other healthy,

1823
01:48:13,800 --> 01:48:18,480
vibrant community in the Nielsen
Naylors whose leadership just

1824
01:48:18,480 --> 01:48:21,840
love their people, right?
I and I've had the opportunity

1825
01:48:21,840 --> 01:48:26,280
to talk to a few of them and,
and, and I refer people there as

1826
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:29,680
as often as, as I can, if I
think they fit, because I think

1827
01:48:29,720 --> 01:48:32,120
they're, they love their people
and they're doing the best they

1828
01:48:32,120 --> 01:48:35,640
can for their people.
And they have a lot of things

1829
01:48:35,640 --> 01:48:37,520
right.
But if you don't know that, if

1830
01:48:37,520 --> 01:48:40,760
you don't know those men who are
trying to just love their people

1831
01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:44,040
and serve them the best they can
and they're not engaged in all

1832
01:48:44,040 --> 01:48:47,880
the Warren Jeffs stuff, you
don't know.

1833
01:48:47,880 --> 01:48:49,040
You don't know what you don't
know.

1834
01:48:49,040 --> 01:48:52,080
And you can only respond with
the knowledge you have.

1835
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:56,280
Yeah.
And so like I very much

1836
01:48:56,280 --> 01:49:03,360
struggled with my parents over
the past about year, but I do

1837
01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:06,400
understand it comes from a place
of love and concern.

1838
01:49:07,080 --> 01:49:13,200
My parents are very good people.
They do their best and they're

1839
01:49:13,360 --> 01:49:16,760
concerned for me.
There's been a few times when

1840
01:49:16,760 --> 01:49:21,160
I've tried to explain, but they
do not understand at this time.

1841
01:49:21,320 --> 01:49:24,600
And that's a struggle.
But yeah.

1842
01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:29,400
So we started dating in August.
We had another meeting where I

1843
01:49:29,400 --> 01:49:32,360
told him that I was going to be
baptized into the Nielsen Naylor

1844
01:49:32,360 --> 01:49:33,880
group, which happened in
December.

1845
01:49:35,440 --> 01:49:41,000
And that and he was asking for
my dad's blessing to propose to

1846
01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:43,480
me.
And one of the things my dad

1847
01:49:43,480 --> 01:49:49,680
said was you don't need my
permission, which was permission

1848
01:49:49,680 --> 01:49:52,240
or not.
It's not.

1849
01:49:52,240 --> 01:49:54,720
It's kind of what he said from
the beginning of you don't need

1850
01:49:54,720 --> 01:49:56,680
permission to date my daughter.
You don't need permission to

1851
01:49:56,680 --> 01:49:59,120
marry her.
Just know I disapprove.

1852
01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:03,560
My parents really do not like
it.

1853
01:50:05,440 --> 01:50:09,560
But he professed me in December,
so we're getting married at the

1854
01:50:09,560 --> 01:50:14,400
end of April, so.
You know, I, I, I want to say

1855
01:50:14,400 --> 01:50:19,640
this, Michaela, right?
Look, I joined Mormonism cold.

1856
01:50:19,640 --> 01:50:22,520
I joined the LDS church being
the only member on either side

1857
01:50:22,520 --> 01:50:26,560
of my family, right?
And so I'm still the only Mormon

1858
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:31,760
on either side of my family.
My wife Amber's family, they're

1859
01:50:31,760 --> 01:50:34,160
pretty entrenched in the church,
right?

1860
01:50:35,320 --> 01:50:39,640
And so when everything comes out
that this is what we're doing,

1861
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:44,320
right?
Like, can't believe I'm going to

1862
01:50:44,320 --> 01:50:48,520
spill this here, but I will.
Like, we kept Amber's mom in the

1863
01:50:48,520 --> 01:50:52,120
dark as much as we can with that
first plural marriage that her

1864
01:50:52,120 --> 01:50:54,960
mom, I think, made the
assumption that I was screwing

1865
01:50:54,960 --> 01:51:00,520
around on her daughter, right?
And when that ended and Amber

1866
01:51:00,520 --> 01:51:02,880
said I should probably tell my
mom what happened, I'm like, I

1867
01:51:02,880 --> 01:51:05,720
wouldn't just just let me take
it, right?

1868
01:51:05,720 --> 01:51:08,040
Like, I I can take that.
That's fine.

1869
01:51:10,640 --> 01:51:13,760
But when it all comes out about
what we're doing, it was rough.

1870
01:51:14,320 --> 01:51:18,360
It was rough for a hot minute.
But let me say this, there's

1871
01:51:18,360 --> 01:51:21,640
hope, right?
Right before the temple out here

1872
01:51:21,640 --> 01:51:26,320
in Missouri was dedicated, I
remember Amber came to me and

1873
01:51:26,320 --> 01:51:32,680
Tanya's, you know, with us now.
And we are firmly fundamentalist

1874
01:51:32,680 --> 01:51:35,400
right beyond a shadow.
Like I got online and went, I'm

1875
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:37,520
a fundamentalist.
Like there's no going back,

1876
01:51:37,520 --> 01:51:42,800
right?
Amber comes to me just right

1877
01:51:42,800 --> 01:51:46,240
before the dedication goes, I
have a prompting.

1878
01:51:46,960 --> 01:51:50,440
I'm like, sweet, what is it?
She's like, I think I should

1879
01:51:50,440 --> 01:51:52,400
invite my mom out to tour the
temple.

1880
01:51:52,560 --> 01:51:55,400
I was like, you're nuts.
Do not do that.

1881
01:51:56,280 --> 01:52:00,920
And and she was like, no, I
really feel like this is what

1882
01:52:00,920 --> 01:52:05,480
we're supposed to do.
And I'm like, OK, I was like,

1883
01:52:05,480 --> 01:52:08,200
I'll pay for the plane ticket.
Everything right?

1884
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:09,840
It's fine.
Bring her out.

1885
01:52:11,320 --> 01:52:16,160
And so she comes out and she
agrees to take a tour of the

1886
01:52:16,160 --> 01:52:21,120
temple.
And I asked Tom zitting out

1887
01:52:21,120 --> 01:52:23,160
here, great guy.
I love Tom to death.

1888
01:52:23,800 --> 01:52:26,320
I said, would you give my
mother-in-law a tour?

1889
01:52:26,480 --> 01:52:28,000
And he's like, well, why don't
you just do it?

1890
01:52:28,000 --> 01:52:31,960
And I'm like, because I'm me and
she's not going to take anything

1891
01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:36,040
I have to say very well, right?
And Tom was the perfect guy for

1892
01:52:36,040 --> 01:52:39,200
that.
He did such a great job and I

1893
01:52:39,200 --> 01:52:41,960
got home.
So we we went home that night.

1894
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:44,160
I had to run out and grab some
dinner, right?

1895
01:52:44,160 --> 01:52:46,800
We hadn't had dinner.
It's about 7:30.

1896
01:52:46,800 --> 01:52:48,840
I'm like, you know what, I'm
just going to run down the road.

1897
01:52:48,840 --> 01:52:50,320
I'm going to grab some five
guys.

1898
01:52:50,320 --> 01:52:58,040
I'll bring it back no problem.
I get back and it's, it's my

1899
01:52:58,040 --> 01:53:04,280
wife Amber, my mother-in-law and
Tanya all doing pedicures

1900
01:53:04,280 --> 01:53:08,000
together.
And I'm like, now I can sit and

1901
01:53:08,000 --> 01:53:11,600
enjoy this site, but I know my
general presence will screw this

1902
01:53:11,600 --> 01:53:13,200
up.
So I'm just going to go

1903
01:53:13,200 --> 01:53:15,480
upstairs, right?
I'll go work on the podcast or

1904
01:53:15,480 --> 01:53:20,880
something like that.
But I'll, I'll say this with,

1905
01:53:20,880 --> 01:53:25,880
with the birth of me and Tanya's
son Asher, he he recently got

1906
01:53:25,880 --> 01:53:28,200
pretty sick with RSV and was in
the hospital.

1907
01:53:28,720 --> 01:53:31,840
My mother-in-law called Amber
probably 3 or 4 times to check

1908
01:53:31,840 --> 01:53:34,080
up on him.
Right now, everything's not

1909
01:53:34,080 --> 01:53:36,000
perfect.
Everything's not smoothed over.

1910
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:37,960
No one's coming to join up with
us.

1911
01:53:38,880 --> 01:53:41,120
Right.
But my point in that is that

1912
01:53:41,120 --> 01:53:45,520
give it time, right?
Once, once they start seeing

1913
01:53:45,520 --> 01:53:48,800
that, you know what, Michaela's
really thriving here, you know,

1914
01:53:48,800 --> 01:53:51,920
and she really loves her husband
and Zach really loves our

1915
01:53:51,920 --> 01:53:55,400
daughter, those things pan
soften.

1916
01:53:55,400 --> 01:53:58,240
I'm not saying they're going to,
but I don't think that it's

1917
01:53:58,240 --> 01:54:04,560
without hope because look, if my
mother-in-law who I just grade

1918
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:08,520
on, I understand, right?
If, if those things can be

1919
01:54:08,520 --> 01:54:11,160
overcome, certainly they can be
overcome here.

1920
01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:16,000
Yeah, God's about bringing
family together.

1921
01:54:16,720 --> 01:54:19,560
Yeah, Yep, Yep.
And it's going to take some

1922
01:54:19,560 --> 01:54:23,720
time, but I have great hope and
I think you should too.

1923
01:54:23,720 --> 01:54:27,480
Thank.
You, it's been interesting

1924
01:54:27,520 --> 01:54:30,520
seeing different reactions cause
like I've had people who are

1925
01:54:30,520 --> 01:54:36,480
like completely disagree with
you, but if this is where you're

1926
01:54:36,480 --> 01:54:39,240
supposed to be, then who am I to
say that?

1927
01:54:39,240 --> 01:54:43,880
People who just get mad about a
week, week and a half ago, I was

1928
01:54:44,360 --> 01:54:47,440
told in a Mormon way that I'm
going to hell, which is not them

1929
01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:48,600
saying like you're going to
hell.

1930
01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:53,760
It's them giving me scripture
verses to search up that tell me

1931
01:54:53,760 --> 01:54:58,040
I'm going to hell.
So I've received all sorts of

1932
01:54:58,080 --> 01:55:00,560
responses.
There have been times when I

1933
01:55:00,560 --> 01:55:03,880
really struggled with it of
like, what if I am making all

1934
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:07,560
this up?
Which I I'm incredibly grateful

1935
01:55:07,560 --> 01:55:11,000
because I've learned that the
easiest way for me to hear God's

1936
01:55:11,000 --> 01:55:15,040
voice is to start writing.
So I have a notebook full of

1937
01:55:15,560 --> 01:55:18,520
experiences that I've had and
impressions I've had and things

1938
01:55:18,520 --> 01:55:21,800
like that that have been very
helpful to kind of sit and look

1939
01:55:21,800 --> 01:55:25,520
through sometimes or to just
remember and things like that.

1940
01:55:26,000 --> 01:55:31,120
But yeah, that's kind of where
we're at now.

1941
01:55:31,760 --> 01:55:34,440
Any wedding.
And then I'm working on a

1942
01:55:34,440 --> 01:55:37,600
podcast because like a year ago,
I felt like that was something I

1943
01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:41,160
needed to do, which scared me to
death.

1944
01:55:41,480 --> 01:55:45,120
I did not.
I did not officially go, OK,

1945
01:55:45,120 --> 01:55:47,920
fine.
I'll do this until like January.

1946
01:55:49,200 --> 01:55:51,640
And then he's like, oh, yeah,
and you and you have to be OK

1947
01:55:51,640 --> 01:55:54,040
with just admitting that you're
fundamentalist now.

1948
01:55:54,040 --> 01:55:56,000
You can't just like, be like,
oh, I was raised in the church

1949
01:55:56,000 --> 01:55:59,480
and leave without that.
Like, yeah, so that's actually

1950
01:55:59,480 --> 01:56:03,440
on YouTube now, so.
What's the name of?

1951
01:56:03,960 --> 01:56:07,160
The channel the Divine Daughter
project, It's targeted for

1952
01:56:07,440 --> 01:56:11,880
women, but if men want to look
at it, I'm sure you can get

1953
01:56:11,880 --> 01:56:14,840
stuff too.
I would, I would encourage men

1954
01:56:14,840 --> 01:56:20,400
to look at it because they are
amazing things to help encourage

1955
01:56:20,400 --> 01:56:23,680
my wife to do very, very nicely.
Don't like force her into it

1956
01:56:23,680 --> 01:56:27,400
obviously, but it's awesome from
just a men perspective to look

1957
01:56:27,400 --> 01:56:28,320
at it too.
Yeah.

1958
01:56:29,080 --> 01:56:31,240
I'll throw a link.
I'll throw a link to the channel

1959
01:56:31,240 --> 01:56:33,880
in this episode's show notes.
We'll to come out next week.

1960
01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:39,360
Thank you and so.
And so it's going through this

1961
01:56:39,360 --> 01:56:42,680
project I've been working on for
the past almost two years.

1962
01:56:42,680 --> 01:56:45,160
And then I'm also going through
The Woman of Mormon Dumb by

1963
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:47,400
Edward W Tullidge, because I
just love that.

1964
01:56:48,520 --> 01:56:52,680
That's an awesome book.
So I, I've always said that's

1965
01:56:52,680 --> 01:56:55,880
the book.
Like there's a stigma

1966
01:56:55,880 --> 01:56:59,200
surrounding fundamentalism that
if you're a plural wife, it just

1967
01:56:59,200 --> 01:57:00,960
means that you're beat down,
right?

1968
01:57:01,320 --> 01:57:03,400
And I've always said, do two
things.

1969
01:57:04,040 --> 01:57:09,000
Go to a fundamentalist meeting
and then read Women of

1970
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:11,800
Mormondem.
That will shatter your paradigm

1971
01:57:12,360 --> 01:57:15,080
on the spot, right?
Those women were not timid.

1972
01:57:15,400 --> 01:57:18,960
Those women were not quiet.
Those women were out there

1973
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:20,840
fighting for what they believed,
right?

1974
01:57:20,840 --> 01:57:22,800
And, and I'm here for that kind
of action.

1975
01:57:23,400 --> 01:57:27,400
Yeah, I've also been reading the
Discourses in Poetry of Elizar

1976
01:57:27,400 --> 01:57:32,840
Snow that was published in 2024.
I think there's three volumes of

1977
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:35,400
it on Amazon and it's just
somebody went through all the

1978
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:38,040
Relief Society minutes they
could find and pull anything

1979
01:57:38,040 --> 01:57:40,040
that Elizar Snow said and
compiled it.

1980
01:57:41,080 --> 01:57:45,480
I'll get spicy with with Eliza R
Snow and I'll call her exactly

1981
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:48,200
what I believe she was, which
was a prophetess, right?

1982
01:57:48,680 --> 01:57:54,000
I think she is OG strong as any
of the early men.

1983
01:57:54,320 --> 01:57:58,120
That came along.
There was a reporter who came to

1984
01:57:58,120 --> 01:58:02,800
Utah in early days of Utah to
interview some people who was

1985
01:58:02,800 --> 01:58:04,640
going to write a hit piece
against the Mormons.

1986
01:58:04,920 --> 01:58:09,800
And she met Elizar Snow, talked
to her, changed her article,

1987
01:58:09,800 --> 01:58:12,320
wrote it about Elizar Snow, and
called her the Hebrew

1988
01:58:12,320 --> 01:58:14,880
prophetess.
Yeah, yeah.

1989
01:58:14,880 --> 01:58:17,640
Like she is.
She is straight up.

1990
01:58:18,040 --> 01:58:20,480
Yeah.
Fight fighting for truth and she

1991
01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:23,200
pulled no punches and she is not
apologetic.

1992
01:58:23,640 --> 01:58:25,040
Yeah.
About it.

1993
01:58:25,040 --> 01:58:27,280
She's going to let you know
exactly where things are.

1994
01:58:27,840 --> 01:58:28,440
Yeah.
OK.

1995
01:58:29,200 --> 01:58:31,920
So is there anything else you
want to say here before I ask

1996
01:58:31,920 --> 01:58:33,240
the final two questions, I
think?

1997
01:58:35,160 --> 01:58:41,960
That's all I had, so I.
Got all right, Zach, if you

1998
01:58:41,960 --> 01:58:48,400
could talk to you when you were
in your lowest point, right when

1999
01:58:48,400 --> 01:58:54,800
you're in that house alone,
nothing to eat, going to Mom's

2000
01:58:54,800 --> 01:58:59,520
place for some soup and some
eggs and some some air, as you

2001
01:58:59,520 --> 01:59:03,560
called it, for for nosebleeds,
what would you tell yourself

2002
01:59:03,560 --> 01:59:10,400
right then?
This is going to sound a little

2003
01:59:10,400 --> 01:59:18,000
weird, but take every moment you
can and use it because that's

2004
01:59:18,000 --> 01:59:21,200
one thing that I kind of wish
I'd done a little less on is

2005
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:24,920
sitting on the couch scrolling.
I would.

2006
01:59:24,920 --> 01:59:28,480
There are things that I could
have done that if I had done it

2007
01:59:28,640 --> 01:59:30,800
would have been better.
I could have like I had an

2008
01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:34,600
opportunity to play the like
learn the guitar and piano and

2009
01:59:34,600 --> 01:59:36,440
that kind of stuff.
And I kind of wish I had done

2010
01:59:36,440 --> 01:59:41,640
that is even if you're really
going through a hard time, pray

2011
01:59:41,640 --> 01:59:45,960
to God see what opportunities
you do have, even when he's

2012
01:59:45,960 --> 01:59:48,280
telling you to wait, because
that's what that was, was him

2013
01:59:48,280 --> 01:59:53,880
telling me to wait for things to
become get ready.

2014
01:59:53,880 --> 02:00:01,200
And so it sucks, sucks a whole
lot, but take advantage of the

2015
02:00:01,200 --> 02:00:03,760
time you have.
Absolutely.

2016
02:00:04,280 --> 02:00:10,880
OK, Michaela, what would you
tell yourself going back now to

2017
02:00:10,880 --> 02:00:16,440
the young woman who first got
introduced to the Fundy guy who

2018
02:00:16,440 --> 02:00:18,320
just happened to be a great
dancer as well?

2019
02:00:18,960 --> 02:00:20,840
What would you tell?
What would you tell her?

2020
02:00:27,080 --> 02:00:28,960
Take a deep breath.
It's going to be hard.

2021
02:00:28,960 --> 02:00:31,640
You're going to receive a lot of
pushback.

2022
02:00:32,560 --> 02:00:40,360
Don't let it discourage you
because what God wants you to do

2023
02:00:40,480 --> 02:00:44,360
is the best thing to do.
And that comes with trials and

2024
02:00:44,360 --> 02:00:47,880
hardships and things like that.
Esther face death.

2025
02:00:49,640 --> 02:00:52,320
And right now I'm not facing
death.

2026
02:00:53,920 --> 02:00:58,640
And even if I do one day then
forgot, it's worth it.

2027
02:01:00,520 --> 02:01:03,640
Absolutely perfect.
Now I'm going to put you both on

2028
02:01:03,640 --> 02:01:05,240
the spot.
No problem.

2029
02:01:06,040 --> 02:01:09,680
Back.
Would you bury your testimony

2030
02:01:09,680 --> 02:01:17,000
before we wrap up?
Yeah, so my testimony is that

2031
02:01:17,720 --> 02:01:28,360
God is still working with men
today and the the the Mormon

2032
02:01:28,360 --> 02:01:31,720
that Joseph Smith, Brigham
Young, John Taylor taught.

2033
02:01:32,040 --> 02:01:40,200
That is true.
That is the gospel restored and

2034
02:01:42,560 --> 02:01:48,520
it was not meant to be easy
sacrifices brings forth the

2035
02:01:48,520 --> 02:01:58,160
blessings of heaven and you will
be paid for the seeds you sell,

2036
02:01:58,560 --> 02:02:06,320
whether that be good or bad.
And plural marriage in

2037
02:02:06,320 --> 02:02:10,400
particular is the most beautiful
thing here on earth when it's

2038
02:02:10,400 --> 02:02:13,000
done correctly.
There's many ways to do it

2039
02:02:13,000 --> 02:02:21,960
wrong, I don't deny that, but it
is the most beautiful thing and

2040
02:02:23,280 --> 02:02:26,680
it is something to perfect.
It's something to always get

2041
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:34,320
better AT and always ask God at
your lowest moments as well,

2042
02:02:34,320 --> 02:02:38,200
because He is your Father and He
desperately wants to help you.

2043
02:02:39,640 --> 02:02:43,960
If whenever you're struggling,
sometimes it's OK to have

2044
02:02:43,960 --> 02:02:49,400
shouting matches I got because
I've done that and it's

2045
02:02:49,400 --> 02:02:57,040
interesting how much He does
help you and it's not something

2046
02:02:57,040 --> 02:02:59,560
I continually dwell on.
Obviously be ready to receive

2047
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:04,200
because he will give you
something, but your father is

2048
02:03:04,200 --> 02:03:08,080
watching you and he cares about
you so.

2049
02:03:09,400 --> 02:03:17,280
Excellent, Michaela.
God loves his children very,

2050
02:03:17,280 --> 02:03:21,440
very much more than they can
possibly understand.

2051
02:03:21,800 --> 02:03:26,280
To descend is one of the
greatest things that someone can

2052
02:03:26,280 --> 02:03:28,440
do.
This was taught a lot in the

2053
02:03:28,440 --> 02:03:31,680
early church.
Our parents did that, our

2054
02:03:31,680 --> 02:03:34,680
brother did that.
And it's something that we have

2055
02:03:34,680 --> 02:03:35,400
to do.
Yeah.

2056
02:03:35,520 --> 02:03:37,520
Though I walk through the valley
of the shadow of death, I will

2057
02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:39,840
fear no evil.
For thou with me thy rot in the

2058
02:03:39,840 --> 02:03:43,000
staff, they comfort me.
The valley of the shadow of

2059
02:03:43,000 --> 02:03:47,240
Death is a title that was used
for mortality.

2060
02:03:49,160 --> 02:03:53,040
This life is very hard.
If it's not hard, you might want

2061
02:03:53,120 --> 02:03:55,640
to double check yourself to see
where you're at.

2062
02:03:56,880 --> 02:04:00,720
We're going to go through fire,
but the fire is what refines us.

2063
02:04:01,520 --> 02:04:07,440
The pressure is what refines us.
And God will be there with us

2064
02:04:07,440 --> 02:04:12,480
through it all, no matter how
hard it gets, even if it's hard

2065
02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:16,320
to see, hear, or feel Him in our
lives.

2066
02:04:17,040 --> 02:04:20,600
But He's going to be there, and
He talks to His children no

2067
02:04:20,600 --> 02:04:24,040
matter where they're at.
And He will guide you no matter

2068
02:04:24,040 --> 02:04:29,680
where you're at.
Fantastic, fantastic.

2069
02:04:30,120 --> 02:04:31,960
Well, you guys, I'm excited for
you.

2070
02:04:31,960 --> 02:04:34,280
I'm excited for April for you
guys.

2071
02:04:34,720 --> 02:04:37,480
I, I, I am just tickled to
death.

2072
02:04:37,480 --> 02:04:41,960
I hope, I hope you guys have
find every joy you can.

2073
02:04:41,960 --> 02:04:45,320
And Zach, let's have you back on
the podcast.

2074
02:04:45,320 --> 02:04:46,720
We've talked about that a little
bit.

2075
02:04:47,320 --> 02:04:51,440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You let me know when you're

2076
02:04:51,440 --> 02:04:53,200
ready and, and I'll make the
time.

2077
02:04:53,760 --> 02:04:56,840
Michaela, I'm looking really
forward to seeing what you do

2078
02:04:56,840 --> 02:04:59,320
with your channel.
I am super excited for it.

2079
02:04:59,320 --> 02:05:02,760
I think it is so needed to have
these discussions from a

2080
02:05:02,760 --> 02:05:06,240
faithful fundamentalist
perspective, from, from, from a

2081
02:05:06,240 --> 02:05:09,320
woman's perspective.
So, and, and you're, you're

2082
02:05:09,320 --> 02:05:12,000
smart and you're intelligent and
I can't wait to see what you do

2083
02:05:12,000 --> 02:05:14,200
with it.
I, I think the world of both of

2084
02:05:14,200 --> 02:05:16,680
you guys and I'm, I'm just
looking forward to seeing what

2085
02:05:16,680 --> 02:05:20,240
time does with you and, and, and
how you can work with God more.

2086
02:05:21,480 --> 02:05:23,760
So awesome.
Hang out in just 5 minutes.

2087
02:05:23,760 --> 02:05:25,320
All right.
Absolutely.

2088
02:05:25,800 --> 02:05:27,160
All right.
Thanks for coming on guys.