Episode #225: Finding Hope, Faith & Love After Trials W/Zack & Mckayla

0:12 Zach Michaela. How's it going? Good. How are you guys? Excellent. Nice, nice. This is going to be a problem if we keep back answering like In Sync. So like it, it'll be a cool sound, but but it might might get a little tough. So man, you know, I am really looking forward to this one because Michaela and Zach, we had the opportunity to meet when when was when was the conference that we met at October? What month was it? October. October, October of 2025 and our mutual friend who again, I don't know if he, he would like to remain nameless or not, but he, he just said, hey, man, come down here.

1:01 There's some folks that want to meet you. And I had the opportunity to meet with, meet you just a little bit, talk to you. And from there we're here. And so I'm, I'm super looking forward to this and talking about your guys's story and, and how you got here. So, Zach, let's start with you. So you were born a fundamentalist, right? Correct. Yes. But I didn't grow up in in the in the fundamentalist community per SE. I actually grew up in public school and I just kind of went through that, stayed religious mostly through it, although.

1:43 And then I ended up relatively serving a mission afterwards and just kind of like that. Right. And that's for the the the fundamentalist church that you. Yeah, the Nelson neighbors, as we're commonly referred to. OK, All right. I didn't know if they wanted to be named, so I was trying to be gentle, but awesome. So real quick, you said that that you went to public school, right? Yes. How? Like most fundamentalist kids don't necessarily go to fund to to public school, right? Some do, but but the majority are either homeschooled or a lot of groups have their own school. What was your what was your experience going through through public school as a fundamentalist? Like, did anybody know?

2:31 I I mean, I imagine at some point someone's going to say something. Right. So anybody who knows me, I'm more of a loud and proud kid. So I actually went through all public school completely open about my religion and all of that. I didn't try handling it at all. So, and I kind of dropped that from my siblings a little bit. They had gone through and they were picked on a little bit whenever they mention anything like it. And I saw them picked on regardless. So for me, I'm like, OK, if I'm going to fight, then I'm going to go down swinging. And so I literally, yeah, so I literally was been through both elementary, middle school and high school, even though I'm just saying like, hey, I am a fundamentalist.

3:21 And even it was kind of fun because in in high school and granted, I had a big chip on my shoulder at the time, so I'm very grateful for that. The Lord has kind of helped me wind that down quite a bit. But I used to get into debates all the time, just debates about the gospel and all that kind of stuff. And eventually I even got some atheists on my side, which was kind of funny when it was between me and this LDS kid. We're going back and forth and then the the atheist came to me afters. Like dude, you're sounding a lot more incense than him. Like that's really weird. And so. That's, that's an interesting thing I have noticed, right, Not all atheists. So I'll say that not all atheists, but a good number of atheists will at least look at a Mormon fundamentalist and go, well, he's at least consistent, right? He doesn't, he, he doesn't hedge one way or another. He just tries to say very consistent. So that's not the first time I've heard that. So what did you get picked on at all? Or.

4:25 Yes, so I was picked on a lot. So I, I only have like maybe I could probably count on both hands, just both hands of how many friends I've had in high school and middle school. And elementary was more of the roughest part just 'cause I think they, the kids were bullying me, but they didn't exactly know why they were bullying me as much, just something that happened at the time. And so, but there's a group of friends and I keep, I keep tabs on one I talk to maybe once a year. And but they, the people that I am good friends with, they, they're really awesome people. They're people that even though they're LDS, they're still very much respect me and my beliefs and I respect them and their beliefs.

5:15 And we just kind of went through high school and I did football and wrestling both in high school and middle school and once, right? That's what that's what I did. So that's that's where I let let me ask this question. Was it the same on the football team as it was in like normal school? I would say I got a little bit more respect because there's a more of a brotherhood, a little bit more camaraderie there. There was still like a lot of like, I don't want to say like religious debates. There was more of just like everybody just being boys and completely just pushing each other around, trying to poke at one another. There's a lot more at that.

5:57 What's interesting with the wrestling cultures, there was a lot more respect, which one of the things I thought very interesting is that in wrestling it's you. You respect your brothers a little bit more there than you do football. Sure. No, I remember that because I did both football and wrestling. Those were my 2 sports. Yeah, I'll say this right? Guys have a different love language than women do, right? Like. If if we insult you and cut you, you were part of the boys, right? That's just, that's just part of part of being able to hang with the fellas there a little bit. And you know, to a degree, right? And I, I, I've also said this, most of my best friends that I had growing up in high school, we went, we knock each other around constantly.

6:44 I shouldn't say constantly. There's, you know, you, you get into a little squabble, you pop each other in the face and it's usually done right. But interesting. So would you say that your your experience in public school was like a net positive and that negative like what? What was your? Your thoughts? I would say it's a, it's a positive because I made it so it's a thing is like, I think, I think overall, especially with my siblings and the way they've talked to they, they don't, they didn't like school. They wanted, they were like the ones that completely get out of it a lot of the time. Like they just didn't want to be there during my especially toward the end of my junior and senior year where I had things completely figured out before that setting.

7:25 I really enjoyed it. Glad I didn't stay though. Like that's The thing is with my high school, I heard like the year I left, they completely gotten rid of the dress code and so just the whole morals of the school and everything just started to absolute tank after I so it's like I, I, I appreciate the experience that I definitely had for sure. Gotcha. Gotcha. So now with your mission, was that like a proselytizing mission, a service mission? What kind of mission was that? So this was a service mission. It was, but we helped all the groups, whoever asked for help, we usually had a great time to, to help them out. And I served from Canada to Salt Lake, Arizona, Missouri, Idaho, I served everywhere.

8:16 And it was just mainly people that wanted help. And we, we just got together a bunch of group of boys then then ended up Isaac was the one that was running it at the time. But then we just kind of went and helped and it was a it was one of the most spiritual and best moments of my life. I think it definitely shaped me to be the person I am today for sure. What do you think it is you took away from, from your mission experience, right? Is there like one thing that you can really remember where you're like, oh, this is going to stick with me forever? Yeah, although I lived, my father lived plural marriage until 1, until one of his wife's left him.

9:05 And I had fond memories of the beginning of the family, but then when she left them, things ended up starting getting nasty. When I was on my mission, I had a chance to really see plural marriage and the way other families were living it. And there was one story in particular, one family I was living with. And I remember coming into the house and seeing the older kids and the younger kids both playing on the floor. The two wives at the time were just talking and just having a great conversation in the corner. And the love of that house was very overwhelming, was amazing. And then I remember the father coming in, the whole kids kind of stopped, went and said hi to dad. The dad ended up checking in with the wives real quick and then went to the floor and played with all the kids, like all the kids, all ages.

10:02 And that's when I really got my testimony that this is something beautiful. And in that moment, that beauty of that is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. It's I've been to the ocean, I've been up in the mountains. I've seen all types of amazing beautiful landscape and a house that's living the most that they can to the gospel of God. That is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen. And that's what I'm, but it's what I want to implement in my family. Gotcha. OK, let's do this. Let's keep going until right before you meet Michaela. OK, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

10:46 So. So as you as you have this experience and you come home, what do you do next? Right. So when I come home, it was a little bit of an interesting shock. I end up coming home and I end up just kind of going through life. They have this thing in the LDS. I've talked to a couple of my buddies over there and they say that you have a post mission depression and I said I got that a little bit when I came home just because you're going from a place of serving everyone, you know, versus not and you're getting a paycheck and you got a car and money, which is very nice. That was very different, but it's it, you just don't got the same fulfilment.

11:34 So I ended up spending a little bit time off that and then I actually was married once before and then Needless to say, things happened and we ended up separating and and I remember that was one of the hardest times in my life because I didn't have I didn't have the money to move. I had to stay in the same house I was at the time and still am the there today. But I remember just sit in my house being like, I got to get out of here. I got to not spend so much time at home because that's what would happen to back up things a little bit is because I feel impressed to share this story is when I've gotten home from my mission. I was wondering if I should have moved out then. And I prayed about it, pondered it a lot. And I got the impression if you stay, you'll have what you need. And Fast forward to after me and my previous marriage had ended, I was emotionally just in the dumps. Like I'd come home and everything would just hurt. Like my whole body would just hurt. And one time I came home, it was a it was actually about this time, it was in February and it was raining outside. And I look in the fridge, there's no food in the fridge. I've had a bloody nose all day.

13:06 And one thing that my family likes to do is we like to put something called air in our nose Ayre. And it's like a, just like a little gel that helps with a bloody nose. I didn't have any of that. And then I'm like, OK, well, I got to go out tired, but I still got to go out to get food, eat something, and then also get something for breakfast tomorrow. And as soon as I'm about to hit the door, then my phone starts to ring and it's my mom and end up answering it. And she said, hey, I made a thing of soup. How about you come have some dinner? And I was like sweet so and at this time, the house that I'm still lived in is on the same property that my parents live in, not in the same building, but we are very much still on the same property. So I end up walking over there and one thing about my mom, she makes some of the best soups.

14:02 I, I love my mom for that. She is an absolute talent of that. So I end up having this warm bowl of soup and I asked her, do you have any eggs that I could have for tomorrow's breakfast? And then she gives me like a big, it's like two or three dozen eggs, like one of those cartoons. And then I asked her, do you have anything the any air for? My buddy knows. She goes, let me check. She looks on the regular spot, nothing there. And she's like, let me go check one more place and she usually doesn't put it there. And that's the back of the cabinet in her sink in her in her bedroom. But then she finds this little box with this one tube left in it.

14:48 And she ends up giving to me. And I remember walking home and the clearest day of if you stay, you'll have what you need. And ever since I had that, I was like, OK, I'm in it to stay. Let's end up just trying to stick through this. Then I end up still staying in the house, but I'm like, I need to get out of here. I just can't physically stay here as much. And I'm scrolling on Instagram and then comes as many people know me. I am. I help out at Dusty Boots, which is a dance place that I hope I during the social, I'll take couples in that are kind of struggling a little bit and I'll teach them some dance lessons. And that's where I ended up really having a really amazing time.

15:47 And then the instructor comes. Well, let me back up a little bit because that was actually very interesting. So I have the thing to scroll on my phone. I took the ballroom in high school, so I've always been a relatively good dancer. My mom kind of pushed me into it and I fell in love with it. And so because of my background in ballroom and also a little bit in wrestling, I can see someone's movement and then copy it pretty quickly. And so the guy that owns Dusty Boot, he looked at me and says like you pick up moves pretty quickly. Do you want to start instructing? And I'll teach you how to do this. And then you can, you can learn more and that kind of stuff.

16:30 So then I started going to the classes, the instructor classes and learning how to teach and all that kind of stuff. And then eventually he let me start being on staff and that kind of stuff. And so that's where I can't currently am now. And it's interesting at how much that has come up over and over again. That's if you stay, God will take care of you. It may not be what you want, but it is it. You will have what you need, which has been very interesting. You know, that's so interesting. How the Lord works with each of us differently in those types of circumstances, right?

17:12 Because, you know, as I think everybody knows that listens to the podcast even a little bit. I started out this whole fundamentalist journey because of plural marriage, right? That wasn't my reason to go in. That was something that happened that caused me to look at the rest of, of fundamentalism. But I remember when that 1 ended. I remember very clearly the the instruction I got was close this chapter, move on, right? Sell this place and move on. And I was like, I'm not selling it. You know, it's a nice little piece of ground, you know, 5 acres, middle of nowhere, almost to the Oregon border.

17:55 And yeah, I, it's interesting the differences right now. Mine took me through North Dakota and that's because I think I'm hard headed and God's most petulant child. So he punished me with North Dakota. You know, my apologies to anyone who lives in North Dakota, but I won't apologize to North Dakota, that place. Is rough. God put the oil there so we wouldn't feel bad about getting it. It, it, it was, it was, it was rough, but it's interesting how the Lord deals with us so individually and yet worries about all of his children kind of on the macro level, right?

18:36 So what what do you think it was about going and teaching dance that kind of helped you through that time? So for me, the lesson was more of just how to teach people, how to teach everybody. So the my instructor, he is such an amazing person, incredibly smart. He breaks down things on a level that I couldn't even imagine. He taught us how to break down things. And I actually apply that a lot to the gospel. And a lot of like, if I talk to people right now where like he identifies certain fundamental, fundamental, fundamental thinking and then that transfers to like explaining, you need to explain to people a certain way that they understand.

19:24 And if that doesn't work, then you shift and you shift quickly. And so now I'll do that work. I will start to say something and I notice it won't necessarily resonate. And then I'll try switching to something different to where the person had a better chance of grasping it. So that was something that he even now I'm still learning that kind of stuff of like explain this this way and God still help me. That's one of the reasons I'm still there is that I'm still learning how to teach and how to become like that. Sounds like it kind of took you outside yourself, right, where you were focusing on somebody else rather than what you were going through at the time.

20:08 Yeah, there I believe it was. Gordon B Hinckley of the LDS Church had a great story about this. Where he'd wrote home to his dad a couple different times, right, about how hard the mission was and how he wasn't necessarily enjoying it or finding success. And his dad wrote him back a letter. And it was one sentence, dear Gordon, forget yourself and go to work. And there's a lot of truth to that, right? This idea of of shifting your gaze from the inward to the outward, right? I think so often it, it's, it's our nature when we hurt to focus inwardly.

20:52 And I think that's part of that thing that Christ says about if you lose your life, you'll find it again. Yes. Right. And that's. Amazing. You, you got to be able to to lose yourself a little bit and something bigger than you. Yeah, and that's, that's one thing that I absolutely love about my job is that you you have people that come in that they're kind of hunched over, they're socially awkward. They're, they're not. Maybe this one does anyway. But then you start to teach them and through dance, you literally see them open up. You see them really start to come confident in their whole life. And their whole life will change because they learned this one skill, which is part of being confident with your movements. And that is such a blessing to see. I love seeing that in people.

21:45 It's it's soulmated. Awesome. And and it's at Dusty Boots that you will meet Michaela. Yes, it is. All right. So is there anything else we missed before we move on to to Michaela going up to about the same time? No, I don't think so. I think we covered that. All right, Michaela, we're on to you. So like, what's your Mormon cred, right? Where, where do you come from? Which, you know, born fundamentalist or mainstream? What, where, Where'd you come from? Born and raised in the LS Church. I come from pioneer stock on my dad's side. My mom's from the South. So it's funny when she, my my dad born, raised to Utah.

22:29 And she likes to say she's like, that's funny. I didn't know that when you marry Utah, boy, you don't really leave Utah because she's been in Utah ever since. Yeah. So I was born raised in the LS church. I always kind of struggled a little bit with the people around me just because the word I was in wasn't the greatest. Like they're, they're nice people, but I'm a little bit of an oddball. And so I didn't really fit in and I got on the outskirts of everybody really, really quickly. So I, I struggled with the people around me, but it taught me pretty early on that my testimony is my testimony, not based off other people. And so I'm very grateful for that. When I was young, I was actually abused, which didn't help my social awkwardness around people. And so I was in a really dark place in my life till we've tried to like figure out the timeline. And it was either time I was 10 or 11 years old, we're pretty sure 11.

23:35 And because I was so surrounded by all this darkness, I was trying to find light somewhere. And so the first kind of like dive into scriptures I ever did was actually on Satan and his demons and how to like deal with the attacks and stuff at seven years old. And not anything like looking through the scholarship or anything, but just topical guide going to find all the scriptures associated with this kind of thing. And then when I was 11 and it stopped, I had dissociative amnesia for about 4:00-ish years where forgot any of it ever happened.

24:18 Like my mom kind of guessed she didn't know, nobody really knew, but my mom had kind of guessed something weird was happening and was trying to get me to say things and I would just shut down. And she's like, well, she doesn't say anything. She doesn't say anything. And then it was May of 2019, my brother graduated high school, and several of the memories came back. And one of the things when memories come back after amnesia is 1, you suddenly not have to deal with all the emotion of it. And two, while most of them would come back OK, some of them come back a little skewed because it's your perception of the event, not what actually happened.

25:04 And so one of the memories I thought my parents knew because they had been asking questions and I thought I had told them during that time. And so now I'm in this space where I think my parents know and chose to do nothing about it while also thinking I'm crazy because if you forgot about it, then it obviously didn't happen because you don't forget about something that horrible. But turns out they did not know. There had been some weird things that they had asked questions about, but I had shut down and refused to answer any of them. But yeah. So that summer, summer of 2019 was probably one of the darkest moments in my life because I felt like I couldn't really talk to anybody about it.

25:49 I felt like I was completely alone. I felt awful and dirty and worthless and all these things that come with sexual abuse. And that summer I became extremely depressed and suicidal. I got to the point where I just about committed suicide. And in that day, I kind of had this thought of like you say that you believe that God loves you and you say that you believe that God will answer prayers and all these things. You kind of have to actually show it. Like you say it, do you believe it? And you haven't asked God on this. And so I kind of prayed and I'm like, OK, God, I, I need a sign.

26:32 I'm not supposed to ask for signs, but I need a sign right now because I'm really struggling. I'm in this really dark place. I don't think I can keep going. So please show me something. And I just felt this overwhelming amount of love. There's a picture that I love that I have around here somewhere not close by, unfortunately, where it's this girl who's being held by Christ. You can't see his face or anything, but you know it's him and he's holding this little girl. And that pictures kind of how it felt like it was this overwhelming amount of love that he had for me. And so that was my darkest day of my life, but also my brightest day. And when that happened, I was like, OK, you, you showed me, you love me.

27:17 You prove these things to me and everything. You showed me the sign. No matter how hard things get, I will try to do what you want me to do, which can be dangerous sometimes because sometimes you don't want to do the hard things. Oh, I yes I am. I'm well aware. Yeah, So then when school started up again, I told a couple of my friends about it. But I'm like, I can't tell anybody. You can't tell anybody. Like nobody believes me because I felt like I've told people before. I feel crazy and they kind of pushed me to tell somebody. I ended up giving a letter because that's how I communicate. I gave a letter to my seminary teacher and at the time we would do like spiritual thoughts every day in seminary where like he would prepare something off like a scripture or some gospel principle you'd be thinking about. I wrote like short essays for these because I was an odd nerd child and so he thought it was one of those and he's like, oh I'm so excited to read this and put it in his bag. And I was like, that is not what you think that is. And then due to circumstances he ended up not reading it for a few weeks.

28:34 I think I gave it to him in October. He didn't read it till beginning of November ish. Maybe mid November, he started reading it and then he came to me and he's like, OK, I did not miss reading it because of how dark it was, because what I was doing at the time too, I was to try to process what I was dealing with. I would write in as much detail what had happened to me and the few memories that I had. And so it was one of those. And so he's already and he's like, I can't read this and I'm mandatory reporter. And so he reported to the police, but he's like, I just wanted to let you know beforehand in case there's anyone you need to talk to.

29:15 But tonight I will be calling the police and DCFS and all that. And so I ended up writing a note for my parents, and that's how they found out. And that's when I learned that, Oh no, they didn't. No. And so that all went to court. I was the only witness to speak because they couldn't verify a lot of the other victims. And the ones they could, they decided were too young to speak. So I was the only one to do so. And then because of the time, everything hits.

29:55 We go into 2020, everything shuts down because of COVID. And so his sentencing ended up being March 31st, 2020 through Zoom. So I was present for the sentencing, but I was at like a lawyer's building or something. I can't remember exactly where. I was not in the room with him, which I'm incredibly grateful for. Your parents are helping. You a lot this time? Yeah, my parents are helping a lot. Basically all I had to do was write a witness statement and then be interviewed by DCFS, which I thought lasted 30 minutes. I was talking to my parents about it a little while ago and they're like, no, that interview was like 3 hours long, which means I've blocked most of that interview from my memory. I don't remember it.

30:40 I remember very little of it. My mom was helping us a lot personally. My dad was the one dealing a lot with the court and everything like that. So like huge props to my parents or everything they did because there's a lot more. I'm not going to go into too much detail with everything that happened in that time, but huge props to my parents for everything they did during that time. So. Yeah. All right. You know, they're first. Thanks for being vulnerable and sharing. I know that can't be easy, and I'm sorry you had to endure that. But there's a couple of things that you said in there that that I think are really good parallels in life in general, right? That day you talked about that.

31:37 It was your darkest day, but it was also your best day. I look at the first vision a lot with Joseph. And we are quick as Mormons to focus on the part where the father and the son show up to him as we should be, right? And I don't think we give enough, enough attention to when right before that where he says I was almost enveloped by darkness, right? There was a great darkness that was seeping in and it felt like I was left to abandon.

32:19 That's a pretty dark day. And then in a space of just that fast, light appears. And then it becomes one of the best days not just for Joseph, but the rest of the world. Right, that so your your your story there Michaela, I think has a lot of parallels to that. Let me ask this question and Zach, just so you know, I keep getting a message that your bandwidth is is low my. Bandwidth. OH. It's the Internet stuff.

33:02 The, the other thing that that really jumped out to me was how, how and where did you get the strength to be the only one that would be willing to talk about this, right? That's got to be a rough place to be in. Where did you summon that strength from? Few things. I think part of it was my parents. My parents helped a lot and being that support system there for me, part of it was growing up in the gospel. We were never good at family home evening, but we were really good at scripture studies and we'd wake up at like 6:00 in the morning to read scriptures as a family for about 30 minutes every morning.

33:48 And then I've had some personal experiences with some spiritual things. And one of my takeaways from one of them is at before I say this, people always kind of when I tell them this, they kind of get upset a little bit because they're like you're, you're blaming the victim, you're blaming yourself. And I'm like, OK, no, no, no, no, no, no. So to be clear, before I say what I want to say, the abuse that happened is the abuser's fault. It's not my fault. But I do believe that I did have some idea of what was going to happen in the pre existence and I agreed to it. Part of what helps too is that decision of amnesia.

34:30 I, I have viewed it for a very long time now as God kind of placing a veil over my mind to protect me. I there was a period in which I was kind of upset because I'm like, you had me forget all of it and then remember all of it. Why not just keep me forgetting or why not keep me remembering? And that my favorite play that's also a book is Hell to Cities by Charles Dickens. And in the play version, there's a song called Let Her Be a Child where this girl, her father is in prison because he's French aristocracy during the French Revolution. And then they have this family friend who named Cardin, who he has the opportunity to either just stay with the family and take care of them, or he can switch out places with the father and save his life.

35:24 And so it's kind of this song that they're both singing about, OK, well, this is all about her. What does she need? And hands up switching places with her. But pry the lyrics are she must have never wonder if God might love her less. And the whole song is about, OK, she needs to be a child. She needs to be protected and saved from the dark things of this world. And when I heard that song, I just about cried because it was kind of this answer to this thing I've been struggling with for a while of God is like, OK, you needed to be a child for a little bit. You needed to have some of that innocence. And because you're not dealing with all of it because I, I can know victims who remember everything and it is hard and my soul hurts for them so, so much.

36:15 But it was because I protected you from a lot of these memories. You can stand here and say it. And another thing that helped a lot was the Psalms. I love the Psalms. I love the Old Testament, but I love the Psalms. And there's so many Psalms of how my soul is in anguish, I'm drowning in the floods, all these different kinds of things. But God saves me, and God's here for me. He is my strength, my fortress, my aid, my shield, my buckler, all these things. And so kind of a combination of all those things, mostly God and the upbringing that I had really, really helped. And for anyone who is in a place like some of the victims that I know who do remember everything, there's someone that I know who remembers everything. And she is so, so strong because she also relies on God so, so much to kind of help her with all of it. As you were dealing with the aftermath of those memories flooding back, you're now suddenly in a place where you have to deal with those, where you have to acknowledge them and work through them.

37:32 What did you do that to to help that process along? Was there counseling? What what, what was the protocol there to to get you back on track, so to speak? The fun fact that I learned when your case goes to court, especially if the person is convicted, you get free therapy a certain amount. It's not like unlimited free therapy, but it's so many therapy visits for the victim and the victim's family. And so I did counseling. I got to a place where I didn't really trust my therapist anymore or just therapy in general partially cuz I struggle to talk to people. And so I just recited the plays that I had seen recently to her and she's like this isn't helpful. One of the things that's been helping the most recently, cuz I still struggle with a lot of this, is understanding psychology.

38:32 I did a lot of deep dives into psychology, which you have to be careful with because you can end up with Med student syndrome and then start assigning things to yourself that aren't real. But understanding psychology and understanding where things are coming from and then trying to put things in God's hands and go, OK, this is for you. It really helped when I listened to the episode you did on Oath of Vengeance and that whole idea of like vengeance is God's. You need to put it in his hands and just try and grapple with that. Sometimes I still struggle. For me personally, it also helped starting to write down everything because it was a way to eject it from my system. I would not recommend staying in that space though because otherwise you end up dwelling in it. Another thing too is there was a YouTube video I watched a while ago from a therapist who was talking about this idea of OK, there's victim PUD.

39:35 We have this victim PUD culture that we love. And especially if you've been the victim of abuse or something awful, it's really, really easy to stay in that victimhood area. And you're kind of justified in staying there because everyone's like, yeah, you're obviously a victim, but it's really, really detrimental to stay there. And so the therapist is talking about, OK, you have to move from victimhood to Victor Hood. I survived this. I'm a survivor. Like I've overcome this all that. And most people stop there. And he's like, The thing is, you can't stop there either. There's also an advocate stage. I don't think everyone necessarily needs to go through the advocate stage. Maybe a little bit.

40:19 Some people, they actually like go out and become advocates for whatever it is. I don't think you necessarily need to go that extreme with it. But it's that, OK, I'm going to speak up for those who can't speak for themselves. I'm going to inform people on this topic kind of thing and he's like, these are kind of the main 3 stages people end up in. The problem is with these three stages is that it now requires your identity to be centered around what happened to you. I am a victim because of what happened to me. I am a victor because I overcame what happened to me. I'm an advocate because I help people who went through the same thing I did or a similar thing that I did. Your identity is now wrapped up in this thing that happened to you. So he's like, you have to, to heal. You have to progress to this fourth stage of it's just part of my life.

41:11 And so I've been working on this project. I'll probably talk a little bit more about later. And one of my biggest segues that I've learned from working on this is identity, that being a daughter of God, you are a child of God and you have worth no matter what. That should be your number one identity. And if you can understand that and really take that in and really assign that identity to yourself as the most important identity, then these other things don't matter as much and it's easier to work through it. Absolutely. You know, you, you touched on something there. I'd read about it at a different place, but this idea of not standing in victimhood, right. And you said something else that kind of alluded to this when you said, and again, not victim blaming, but saying if if you follow Mormon theology, I kind of chose this right in terms of I knew what I was getting into because of the restored gospels, belief in a pre existence, those sorts of things, what people don't.

42:15 Get. What's that? I, I was just going to say, there's been a thing recently that I've been hearing more of, which I'm grateful for. It's something I was raised with with a what happened to you is not your fault. The abuse that happened to you, someone being mean to you, whatever, is not your fault. What you choose to do afterwards is. And you have to take. Accountability for what you do after. 100%, yeah. There was a book I read called Extreme Ownership once by a guy who was a former Navy, Navy SEAL. And that book, What's that, Zach? I've read, I've read. I actually read that book on my mission. So I did read a couple books and I don't see the book. It is fabulous. Jocko Willnick Yep, look when and it can be an uncomfortable book, right, because it's going to force you to look at yourself a little bit, right?

43:10 But he talks about just owning it, right? Whatever it is you're going through, you own that because when no, as you talked about Michaela, nobody should stay in that victim space, right? That should be a phase that you go through when you perpetually say this happened to me, right? And that's all the farther you go, you have no ownership of that. You can't work with that because things happen to you, right? When you take the accountability afterwards, as you alluded to here, and you quote own it a little bit, own it in the sense of, OK, this happened, I can't control that, but I can't control what I go forward with.

43:55 Well, that's a different thing now. Right now your destiny is in your hands, right? And somebody who did an atrocious thing to you no longer has power. You have divested them or that situation of all power, and you get to go forward. I think that's such a key point, no matter what we're struggling with, right? Whether whether it's something as horrific as what you had to endure or just dealing with our own sins sometimes, right? If we can take accountability for that and just say, OK, I'm moving forward here, right? I'm going to leave this behind. This isn't something that that I have to dwell on. I can move forward.

44:36 I think there's a lot of wisdom there. So, so you deal, you're still dealing with it, right? I think it's probably something that is maybe lifelong. I don't know. I've never had to struggle with those things, so I won't tend to know. But once you start to heal, what's how much does does the atonement help in that process? So, so much. One of the things that so shortly after the sentencing and everything, we were out of town. We were visiting a different ward. And so my mom decided instead of going to the second hour, she was just going to do a little lesson with me and my sisters. And she's like, OK, we're going to talk about something. We're going to talk about the repentance process. And we're like, OK, the repentance process. She's like, we normally think about this just with sin of OK, I have sinned.

45:42 I'm going to acknowledge that I did something wrong. I'm going to try to make amends for it. I'm going to try to seek forgiveness. I'm going to promise God I'm never going to do this again, Go to anyone. I need to to fix things as much as I can. Then I take the sacrament and I'm clean from it. And she's like, The thing is, is repentance is so much more than just the sin, because repentance is part of atonement. It's part of turning back to God. It's to turn again to God and align yourself with him. And so she's like, this is true. If you're the victim of something that bad that has happened, whether that's just somebody was mean to you, somebody slighted you in some way or something as egregious of abuse. And she's like, what this looks like for that side is you acknowledge that something bad happened and you place the ownership and accountability for that bad thing that happened on the person who deserves it.

46:40 So like, for example, I like on my abuser and I go, you abused me. That was not OK. And then you look at yourself and you go, OK, I need to learn to forgive them. There's a quote that I love that says, today I decided to forgive you, not because you apologized or because your knowledge opinion cost me, but because my soul deserves peace. So you learn to forgive. You learn to put at Christ's feet and go I can't deal with this, you need to take this. Then you take accountability for what you have done. Did you act poorly as a result? So for an example to get even more vulnerable after all this, these memories come back and everything.

47:23 I also self harmed a lot which is pretty common. In the case like this, the self harm is not the user's fault. The self harm is my fault. I chose to do that. I chose to desecrate my body in that way. And so I have to take accountability for that and I have to repent for that. And then finding this healing and going to Christ, partaking of the sacrament and the OK, I'm going to be healed from not only these wrongs I've committed, but also setting down these hurts that other people have caused me. Right. No, that makes perfect sense, man. Your mom sounds like she was on top of it, right?

48:04 Once she knew she was like all over it. So props to her for for doing that work. That's that's incredible. OK, so now let let's, unless there's something else you want to share about those experiences. Let's move forward here a little bit. If you're comfortable with that. If you, if there is something you want to talk about again with that, let me know and we'll, we can stop here and why you do that. But so how do you find yourself hanging out with on a Mormon fundamentalist podcast, being engaged to a Mormon fundamentalist? Let's go through that story. Yeah. OK. So because I didn't want to process, really deal or process with anything at first, I kind of threw myself into school. I've always been ahead in school. I know this doesn't sound like it really it does, but so I ended up actually graduating from high school a year early, but because of that I didn't finish seminary, and seminary actually kind of all got screwed up when I was in high school anyway because they changed the program from what it was to come follow me.

49:11 So no matter what, I was missing at least one book of scripture in it. And so I was actually supposed to repeat doctrine. Dr. incumbents was the first one I did. I was supposed to repeat it for my senior year. But they're like, OK, well you've already done doctor incumbents, but you haven't done all testament. So when you go off to college, I wanted to go to BYU. Both my parents went to BYU. They rejected me. I cried and ended up going to EU So we're. So lucky you don't even know what kind of bullet you dodge. As a guy who went to Boise State, we say every time a cougar cries, an Angel gets its wings. So. Like looking back on it, I'm incredibly grateful and like everybody was encouraging me in that direction at the time.

49:53 I wanted to go into biomedical engineering and then not too long after that realized the only reason I wanted to do that is because they tell you in school if you're a girl and good at math, you better go into STEM. And that's the only thing in STEM I really wanted to do so. Gotta love the system. Yeah, that's all. Like I wanted to be a writer all the way up until 9th grade, and then they're like, you're not going to make anything being a writer and like you're good at math going to STEM anyway. And so it was like the last day. So like there was a deadline and there was like an extended deadline period. And it was like the last day of the extended deadline. But they're like, OK, And I put everything in and like within a week they're like, and you're accepted.

50:36 And I was like, OK, like this. This has to be from God because like, there's no way. And so I went there because I was missing the Old Testament. I took Old Testament and when I walked in the Old Testament, he's like, OK, I like talking about all the things nobody else wants to talk about. The reason why I teach this class every semester is nobody else wants to and I love it. And so we went into all the weeds. So we were supposed to get to the. I think it was the end of Second Kings By the time we were done with the semester, it took us a month and a half to get through Genesis and we I'd run the last 10 chapters. So we had like three, 3 1/2 months to do it. And it kind of opened up this idea of, OK, no scholarship is OK, let's look into the deeper things, let's read more and all this kind of stuff.

51:31 And so I took a testament from him for two years, and then anytime he would do another class, I would take it too because I love the institute. I think the institute is great. However, with where I am at, a lot of it comes off as very surface level to me. And I struggle to pay attention because they're teaching to a broader audience for wherever you are, which is good and fine, but it didn't work for me. And so there were very few teachers that I actually like taking classes from because they were the teachers who were like, OK, ask weird questions and if I can't answer it, I'll go look it up kind of thing. So the last semester he was there, he did a class on foundations of the Restoration.

52:19 And he's like, we're going to talk about all the things nobody wants to talk about. So we're going to talk about plural marriage. We're going to talk about law of adoption. We're going to talk about hunting Snowmassacre, we're going to talk about Meadows Massacre. We're going to talk about all of it and any questions you have. Is the course titled How to become a Fundamentalist one O 1? Was that kind of the like? Was that the name of the course? I mean, holy cow. And like for every topic he would do, he would put up 5 bucks on it. The five bucks would range from this is a very faithful perspective on this event to this is somebody who kind of hates Mormonism perspective and everything in between. And so he's like, here's all the sources. So you can look at everybody's perspective to this. Like I'm honestly doing this from the LES perspective and this is the way that I'm going to teach it. But so like that was the first time I ever heard about the second anointing.

53:13 It was the first time I ever heard about women's blessings or anything like that. And like he brought up all the reasons and why why we don't do it anymore and stuff like that. But like, it was the first time I ever heard about anything like that so. Cover Adam, God. No, no, no, no, he did not touch that or if he did, I don't have any notes of it and I don't remember it. OK, so I was just. Curious. Yes. I I have some thoughts I'm not going to share because if they're true, I don't want to get him in trouble. He is a very, very faithful Latter Day Saints who sticks to what they tell him to teach, other than the weeks he likes to get up to.

53:58 That is within stuff. He won't get in too much trouble. I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll make sure we edit out his name because I don't want to. Yeah. I don't want to get this guy in trouble because it sounds to me like he's doing some great work, right? Like, if he's willing to dive into those and then said, not only dive into him, but say, here's what I think, but you should read this book from the other side. Yeah, That's a guy with No Fear intellectually. And I dig that, Right. And so, yeah, that dude needs to stay right where he's at. He's doing a great work. Yeah, he's great. He's said some things that have made me wonder if he has at least considered Adam God, but I've never heard him ever talk on it and he stays away from it, so I don't know where he lands on it and I don't want to get him in the truck. I see those eyebrows movement.

54:52 I, I wanted since I've looked into it, because it's, it's been a while since the last time I talked to him, since I've looked into it, I kind of want to ask him, but I also don't want to get up in trouble. And I know the people he hangs out with. So. And yeah, anyway, so he was great. So we did the plural marriage section and I was kind of like looking at the things here and there. His focus is Old Testaments and the ancient Israelite Tabernacle and things like that. And so that's what I've known for two years. But I started looking at the plural marriage. I came across a source. I have no idea who wrote it, where it's from.

55:34 It was, I know it's from a plural life in early Utah. And that's all I remember about the specifics of whatever document I came across. But it was a poor wife talking about her family, so her husband, her sister, wife, all this kind of stuff. And it was just obvious the love they had for each other and this. And it was very much like a, OK, this is the true principle. Like it wasn't some men decided to make this up to like, whatever, as you'll hear from people sometimes. But this was a true principle. But we don't live or practice that anymore. And I got this impression of whether this time for the next you'll live this principle, which freaked me out because I'm like, we don't do that in the LDS church. So I'm going to ignore that.

56:26 And I'm going to go back to the Old Testament Tabernacle stuff. So how long ago was this before you met me? Before I met you, this was about a year to a year and a half before I met you. OK. I think it was a year and a half before I met you because I did one year of class. Because he ended up leaving the institute, they transferred him to another center. Yeah. The teacher, because they're supposed to like, rotate every so many years or whatever where they're at. So he, he had hit his mark. And so they rotated him to a seminary and he wasn't going to tell any of us. I found out from another teacher who was like, oh, I know that you really like this teacher, by the way. Like tomorrow's his last day.

57:09 And I was like, what? So yeah. So I talked to him and he's like, I just didn't think I needed to, like, tell anybody. And I was just like, OK, it's OK. He runs a podcast. So like there's still ways to like keep the content for those who want to anyway. So it was about a year and a half of been doing institute classes where I kind of like sit down cuz I'm like, OK, I don't really have anyone to talk to about any of these things. I, I don't know what to do. And I, I just kind of like sunk down. The best I was doing was I was working through who shall ascend to the hill of the Lord, which is an amazing book.

57:54 It's very long. It's like 1000 pages long, but it's great. It's, the premise of it is the Psalms are the ancient Israelites, the Tabernacle script encoded and mixed up. And then this is how you see it through Christ's life in the Book of Mormon. It it's a great book. So I was slowly working my way through that, but that was kind of about it other than like going to church every Sunday, regular scripture study, that kind of thing. And at the time, I was actually waiting for a missionary to get home. I swore I wouldn't do that. I told him before he left, I'm like, I'm not waiting for you. And then a few months into him being on his mission, I got on a date with a guy and the only person I could think of was this friend from high school who was on his mission. And I was like, OK, fine, I'll, I'll wait for you. And then and we would talk on P days and there were kind of some signs before that kind of show me this wasn't going to work because like I try to tell him about what I had learned from being in my institute class and like, hey, we should talk about like a Heavenly Mother, Like what do we know about her and stuff like this.

59:15 And he told me he was down for the conversations. And then he started throwing up quotes in my face of like, just look at the gospel topics that say that's all we know about Heavenly Mother and there's nothing more to know. Don't look into it anymore. And I was, and so you're like, throw those folks up in my face and I'm like, OK, so you don't want to talk about this. And he's like, no, no, no, you can talk about it. And I'm like, every time I start to talk about this is what you do. So there was kind of some signs that it probably wasn't going to work. He's a pretty good guy. And I, I don't know what he's up to now, but I hope he finds a good girl because he's a good guy, just not the one for me kind of thing. And he came home, we went on a date. Going into the day, I was already like triggered up to high heaven because of some things that had happened throughout the week.

1:00:05 But he didn't really know that. He knew I had been abused, but that was kind of the extent of it. He didn't like talking about it because dark topic obviously. And so some things happened and I told him like, OK, I need a break for a few days just to think about some things. And he kind of pushed the issue of like, if you're going to break up with me, just break up with me. And I'm like, well, if I am going, so I want to do so in person. But first I need to separate what is actually like this isn't going to work compared to what is just I'm triggered and upset. And so we ended up breaking up in July of 2024, like mid-july. And other than my best friend, he was the only person I was talking to outside my family.

1:00:55 So then I was only talking to my best friend mostly through text. So I wasn't really talking to anyone. And so I reached a point where I'm like, OK, I have to be social. I need to do something. And I had done dance when I was younger, I did ballet and hip hop and all sorts of things when I was younger. And I was like, you know what? I I need to start dancing again. I love dancing. And so August 31st of 2024. I hate to interrupt, let's let's pick this up again. But I do have a question, OK, about the institute teacher in those classes you took, was there anything he brought up there that like freaked you out, right? Like at first you're like, not sure I want to be touching that.

1:01:37 Or was everything like kind of brand new and fascinating? Kind of all brand new and fascinating. Like there was stuff that he had said before, things like the mountains Meadow Massacre was kind of uncomfortable just because like the hard topic to talk about. I actually that was beside me. Yeah, 2022. I have all the notes from this class with me still and I was looking through them the other day because I was trying to find something and like he went through so much and he's like, we're going to talk about it all.

1:02:17 He gave the like LDS explanations for why certain things are missing and things like that. None of it really freaked me out too much. It was mostly like, oh OK, this is how things used to be done. But it did leave me with some questions of like, like, I understand the reason why you said we don't do women's blessings and others blessings anymore, but like, why not? And then like, OK, like I guess we got rid of Sluromerge, which I'm kind of OK with because like we just don't do that, things like that. But like, nothing really freaked me out too much. So did you ever like, sometimes when we learn about these things, it's purely academic, right? It can be fascinating, it can be engaging, but that's different than belief.

1:03:14 Did you find through this class and going through this old, some of these older things that that your belief increased to include them? Or did everything just remain purely academic? It mostly stayed academic. It helped with like, OK, like I, I have a firmer testimony and the Restoration and Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Most of it was like brand new information on things that I was unaware of. So like I didn't know about second anointing. I didn't know about women's blessings. I didn't know about all these different things. And so some of that was kind of just brand new. So I didn't even know what to do with it because it was just like, oh, huh, interesting.

1:03:59 Really the only thing that really I gained a testimony of more than I already had before. Mostly it was just testimony building was plural marriage of OK, no, this is a true principle that was lived. But I was also in the like LDS mindset that, but we don't live that anymore. Sure. True. OK. No, I was just curious about that because it sounds like you were exposed to a lot of new things, right. Yeah. If if you have a seminary teacher that's willing to be like, and this is the second anointing like that's that, that seems like a a heavy load to drop right off the bat. Yeah. Yeah. But I know there were some students who struggled with it, even just like Old Testament, Like I would talk to a couple of them before or after class for just a little bit.

1:04:46 And like, that would be soon. So we're like, this is not what I thought this was going to be. Right. Yeah, totally. All right. So back to the story. So, so yeah, you get in this place where you're like, OK, I got to get out and I got to meet people. I got to do some things, and dance has always been a big thing to you. And then go ahead and pick up from there. Yeah, so I was like, OK, I'll do country dancing. And so I looked up places and there's a few places in Utah to go and a. Few months back, Justin Frankham had an idea to make learning about the fullness of the restored gospel a lot easier. It was an idea that once I had my mind wrapped around it, I felt like it could do a lot of good. Mormon Legacy Ministries is a multi denominational ministering effort to provide a safe landing place for Mormons to land until they find their forever church home, while at the same time offering folks an opportunity for worship and fellowship. Here's a little bit of what Mormon Legacy Ministries is offering.

1:05:43 Every second and 4th Saturday of the month at 3:00 PM Mountain Standard Time, a sacrament meeting is conducted by Joshua Erickson. Every Thursday at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time is the Gospel Fundamentals class hosted by Eleor Walker and Braxton Bogart. Quarterly men's meetings are also held. The next one of those will be Saturday, February 14th at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time. There's a women's organization, and to learn more about that, go to mormonlegacy.org and click on that link. Finally, for a limited time, starting February 2nd at 6:00 PM and every Monday after that at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time, a discussion group will be held on the book The 5000 Year Leap by Cleon Skousen.

1:06:25 So whether you're an independent Mormon fundamentalist, or maybe you're a Mormon fundamentalist already in a group, but you want more opportunities to learn and serve, or perhaps you're an LDS person wanting to learn more about what your theological cousins believe, or maybe even you're not a Mormon at all and you're just curious about the faith, Mormon Legacy Ministries is the place for you where you can go to learn all those things from the comfort of your own home over Zoom. To get there, all you need to do is go to mormonlegacy.org and then click any or all of those classes that are being offered there. Again, that's Mormon legacyministries.org. Go there today and sign up. And all my life was in Salt Lake at the time.

1:07:07 So I was living in that like close to Lehigh area, but I was working in Salt Lake. I was going to school in Salt Lake. Anything even semisocial I was doing was in Salt Lake because I also have climbed for years. I've client, I taught kids to climb for like 4 years in Salt Lake. So it's like, OK, where am I going? It has to be in Salt Lake because that's where I am. So Dusty Butte was like the one that came up on the list that like seemed like OK, that seems OK. And so I went there and I met him on the first day. I remember he doesn't.

1:07:53 But in his defense, he talks to like. Tons of people. Yeah, I, I was meeting close to like between 50 and 100 people every month. Yeah, just because of how much I was talking and how much I was trying to help everybody have a good time. So. Yeah, it's interesting that you're both, you're both wounded, right as as you you find yourself at this one location. Yeah. And so when you first meet him, what, what's your thoughts, Michaela? So I actually realized recently that I had seen him and heard him talking a little bit before I talked to him. But when I first started actually talking to him, because he's there to help people learn how to dance, at the time I'm showing up, he came up to me as like, OK, you obviously need help. You don't know what you're doing. And so he was trying to teach me how to dance very politely. Yeah, very politely, because I was showing up to try to be social.

1:08:55 Anyone who asked me to dance, I was like, OK, what's your name? How long have you been dancing? What got you in to dance? All these things. So I'm asking him these questions as he's like, OK, these are the moves. And he's very focused on that. And I'm like, OK, what's your name? And he's like, yeah, Zach, I'm going to the moves. How long have you been dancing? What got you into dance? Oh, I did ballroom in high school. And then I served him at, served a service mission and then ended up here after. And I was just like, oh, a service just no, you didn't say service mission. You just said mission because I was like, oh, where do you serve your mission? And he's like, oh, you know, like Missouri, Utah, Canada. And I was like, that's not how service missions work.

1:09:38 I, I've known a few people who have served service missions and as far as I have known service missions to be, they stay in one place. I have heard about some people for service missions, they'll be transferred to a place and then they'll stay in that place. But like, I had a friend who had recently started a service mission and her service mission was just at home. So I was like, OK, weird. And I kind of got this impression which never got before, just this impression of OK, you need to talk to this person. And I was like, OK, so the next week I came back. Quick question, yeah. So I said mission and then service mission after you start explaining that, right? Yeah, because you said all these places and I was like, that's weird.

1:10:24 And you're like, it was a service mission. I'm like, that's not how service missions work. As far as I'm aware, that's not how service missions work. And so I came back the next week, talked to him. I don't really remember. It wasn't much of a conversation, so I don't really remember. And then I was like, OK, well, I want to get better at dancing too. So I'm going to start taking the dance classes on Monday. So it was Saturday, we met another Saturday and then the Monday following that. So a little over a week and a half later, he had shown up to how it was an intro class. It was one O 1 touch on up the kind of help out with OK, we need more leads to help and everything and so we were talking after and I was talking about the Psalms and who shall send to the hill the Lord this book I was reading and everything and he was talking about this other book on sermon of the Mount.

1:11:15 Yeah, Sermon of the Mount by Emmet Fox. It's what I, it's what really got into me and kind of introduced me the what's what I'm looking for the, the specifics of Hebrew and how one word can actually mean multiple things at the same time. So the context is very important. Like, for example, as I like to say, like bread is not only a loaf of bread, it's also a roof money, that kind of stuff. And so when she started talking about Psalms and how the language of that is so important, that's what really got us to like, be very spiritually in the conversation. Yeah. And then the owner was like, OK, it's late, I'm tired.

1:11:56 I need to talk to my instructors before I can go home. Please go away. But he, he was kind of nice about, but he's like, you need to. So I was like, OK, I'll leave. And then I got home. And at the time I was working swing shifts. So I was working until 1:30 to 3:30 in the morning. And then my best friend like never sleeps because I, I work at a medical laboratory so it's 24/7. And so it was pretty normal at the time for me to randomly text my friend in the middle of the night or for her to randomly text me. So I got home, it was like 11:00 and I texted him the name because we were following each other on Instagram at this point.

1:12:39 So I just messaged him the name of the book. And I was like, the book I was talking about was called We shall send to the hill of the Lord. And then because of his odd comments about his mission, I was trying to figure out if he was LDS or not because I'm like, well, you could be like creedal Christian because they'll do like little service missions or whatever. And so I was like, by the way, it's bicep LDS authors if that's an issue. And he just kind of ignored that statement. And I was like, darn, because I was trying to figure it out without the straight up asking him because I don't like asking direct questions, I guess. And so then he talked for about an hour about it before we went to sleep. And so like 11 in midnight.

1:13:25 And then I woke up the next day and was getting ready to head into work. And I'm like, I just texted a guy I barely know in the middle of the night, which is not a normal thing to do. And if he has a girlfriend, she's going to be mad at me. And so I drafted a text. So class is Monday, this was Tuesday, but I draft this text and I'm like, OK, I please don't take this the wrong way. I just don't want to step on anybody's toes. But do you have a girlfriend? And I had sent it to my sister-in-law first as a like this doesn't sound like I'm asking him out, right? It's just no, it doesn't sound like you're asking him out. So I sent it and then he's like, oh, I'm so flattered, but we need to have a conversation in person. And I was like, oh, he took it as me asking him out. Yeah.

1:14:11 So for me, a little bit here. So throughout the years before I met her at Dust, Well, there's only two years, yeah, that I was at Dusty booth. I actually got asked out a couple times by different girls. And because I am somebody that doesn't like to waste time or anything like that, then I'll actually take them outside and then like calmly explain, like, hey, I am very flattered that you're asking me out on all this, but I'm going to live my life this way. If you have questions or anything like that, I am happy to address those. But if you're not interested in this, then we should not date. We should not even consider this. Yeah, gotcha.

1:14:58 So gotcha. So. So let's stick with Zach for just a minute here. So when's the first time you really noticed Michaela? Because it sounds like you met her once and you forgot I. Think we met twice unfortunately but forgot but the first time that I actually remember. Yeah, you talk to lots of people I'm with. An American person, you're good. The songs is what particularly stuck out with that night with how long we talked. Like that's when I was like, oh, this person's very spiritual and loves to talk about scripture. That's something I love doing. That's something that I've always loved doing. And so I'm like, oh, this is just somebody that I can talk scripture with and I can learn from it. And if I have some insights to add, then yeah. So that was.

1:15:41 That's really the first time that I remember interacting with her. OK, All right, So like when you get that text at 1:00 in the morning, are you thinking she's gonna ask you out? Is that kind of what your mind went to, Zach? Well, that was like 2:00 PM on Tuesday. Yeah, that was 2:00 PM on. Tuesday. And for me it's like excuse. Me. Yeah, yeah, for me, Yeah, for me, yes, that's what I was thinking. I was like, oh, this is just another one of those scenarios. I will just tell her that I'm fundamentalist and all this jazz. She may not like it and just avoid me. She might like it and like, you have conversations. Yeah, just have conversations. And then we just end up because that's what the normal thing was, that I'm still good friends with many of the other women that did end up asking me out. So I thought that's where it would just become. It's just another one of those friendships I'd see. And then we have a good dance here and there, but that it was not expecting this by any by any imagination. So.

1:16:45 So this is a question for whoever wants to answer it, but yeah, what makes it turn from like like 1? When does the the fundy bomb get dropped? Right? And then two like when do things like then become more than just friendship? So. That's a longer story. Yeah. Richard gonna get in. So so Monday we have class Tuesday I text him and he's like OK this is a conversation we need to have in person though I am an anxious little bean. And so I start coming up with every possible thing he could say from like anything from like, oh, I'm married or I'm gay or I'm not interested at all in you to like let's like properly set up a date or whatever.

1:17:37 Which again, I was not asking him out because the way I am is I want the guy to ask me out. The only way I'm going to ask out a guy is if I'm already friends with him and he's like, but we need to talk about this in person. This Saturday I won't be at Dusty because I'm going to be at a competition, so I won't be able to talk until next Saturday. Yeah, it's going to be two weeks for my little anxious being. Great. I was going to die. Because at the time I'm also, and I still do this, I still, I compete in national country dancing. So and the whole time just having to work that out. But then my schedule opened up. Yeah, so then on Thursday, he messaged me.

1:18:19 I was about to walk into an institute class and he messaged me and he's like, hey, by the way, my schedule's cleared up tonight. I will be at Dusty Boo. If you want to talk, then we can. And I'm like I almost never use my PTO like I will make it work because I am going to die. And my Co workers are already like upset at me because I've been losing my mind. And so I met him there and the nights. So like they do classes at like 8:15 to 9:30 and then 9:30 the social starts. And then he had to be at front desk at like 10 to 10:30 or 9:30 to 10, something like that.

1:18:59 It was 930 to 10930 to 10. Yeah. And so we couldn't actually talk until like 101030 whenever it was. And then the like, dance nights usually go out till one, which again, normal for me. That's the schedule line at the time. And so he kind of takes me outside and he's like, OK, just want to let you know a few things. First is if this does lead to dating, like it, it's going to be very cordial. No kissing, no nothing like that. Like this is very like traditional OLD style. I want to ask your dad for permission, all these kind of things. And I'm like, OK, I'm pretty traditional.

1:19:41 I make 1800s dresses for fun and watch Gone With the Wind, which is 4 hours long because I like it. Like OK. And he's like also, just so you know, I have been married before just in case that's a red flag. And my sister-in-law had been previously married. And so I'm like, well, it's not necessarily a red flag. It depends on what happened. Like if a marriage ended because you're abusive, that's a red flag. If it ended because life happens and life sucks sometimes, then that's a conversation. And we had already kind of figured that out because in those like 2 days of me trying to figure out what on earth he was going to say, my best friend and my sister-in-law cyberstalked him and found as much information as they possibly could.

1:20:40 Welcome to a woman in my generation, please. And so he's like, OK, and then the last thing is I am fundamentalist is not, well, he doesn't say fundamentalist. He said I'm FLDS just because that's the easiest thing for people to recognize. But he's like, but not Warren Jeffs. I'm not that. In both started underlines nothing to do with him. I have started out so many invitations to come on the podcast with the line. I'm a fundamentalist, but not the Warren Jeff see kind, right? So like, I get it. I understand. Yeah.

1:21:20 Yeah. And so he's like, I wouldn't let the sway and everything if that's a deal breaker, totally understand. If you have any questions, you're more than welcome to ask them. I'm open to answering any questions that you have. If you never want to talk to me ever again, I completely understand. And I was just kind of like, this is not one of the 50 scenarios I came up with in my head. I am now shutting down because I don't know how to respond to the situation. So I went home and I talked to my sister-in-law and then I called my best friend and talked to them both about it. And when he said like, I'm fundamentalist but not the Warren Jeffs kind, I was like, I don't even know what that means because I didn't know that there were multiple groups.

1:22:07 Like all I knew about it was Warren Jeff's polygamy. That's all I knew. And when I talked to my sister-in-law, she's helped some troubled youth. She's worked at several different jobs helping troubled youth. And so she actually helped some of the Lost Boys that came out of the Kingston group. And so she's like, OK, what group is he part of? And I'm like, I have no idea. I didn't even think to ask that because I didn't know that was a question to ask. And she's like, OK, that that is a question to ask. The interactions you've had with him seem to be like, pretty nice and everything. And then I'm also naturally curious about what other people believe.

1:22:48 I mostly had LES friends growing up. Every once in a while I'll have a friend of another religion, but I've always been fascinated by other religions, what people believe and why they believe it. And so I was like, OK, well, I'm going to ask him 300 questions. And so I started texting him questions and he's like, I do phone calls better. I like never called anyone in my life and tell us that that's not true. Like I did phone calls, but I did not talk on the phone with people hardly ever. My best friend and I, we texted if we were going to talk long distance and I started doing like 2 to 3 hour walks where I would have a list of like 20-30 questions and I would just go through every question and he's like some of them he's like, I don't know, I can't answer that question.

1:23:40 I did say. It I got to pick, I got to pick Zach's brain brain for a minute. What question do you remember that sticks out most of all? The 300. Probably more just like what group, like what's the difference between your group versus everyone else is probably the biggest one, the one that we talked about most. But it's interesting how like, yeah. It's not what sticks on in my mind. That's fair. It was interesting how like literally the the next, like, what was it? Would you say 3 or 4 weeks? We're just you taking me outside for like an hour to two hours as we just went over all your questions. Oh yeah, at least yeah.

1:24:23 Like the next few weeks, every time I would come to Dusty Boot, like I would dance a little bit and then we'd go sit on the grass and I'd be like, OK, question, question, question, questions. Like, yeah. That's awesome. Hey, so, so you, you guys are having these questions at some point feelings got to start right, I mean? Yeah. Zach, when does it start happening for you? So for me, I would say it was a lot more gradual. It's mainly after we had kind of gotten, after those four or whatever weeks, I really start praying about it.

1:25:08 But I'm like, if he doesn't commit to the religion, then I don't necessarily want a deep romantic relationship with her. So that to me is something like, I kind of always kept that in reserve. I kind of was like this could be an awesome possibility, but let's keep that on the reserve. Probably I would say it would be fully there after the little experience that we'll talk about a little bit later. I'm. Talking about the one on. January, yeah, after that experience, which we'll talk about is that's probably when things start to get really like this is this is more more likely than not going to be a going to be a thing. And that's probably when.

1:26:00 Yeah, that's probably when. Michaela, how about you? I feel like it's a lot more complicated because like from really early on, like one of the first I met him, I was like, well, I could see myself dating him and everything. He likes to talk about religion. He's smart, he's handsome, but I've also had any of guy friends in high school who were smart and handsome. And so I'm more than happy viewing the message brother figure if they're going to be in my life kind of thing. It was probably like a few months. And because I I think it was before January that I was like, Oh, no, I I do really like this guy, which kind of led to what happened in January.

1:26:54 But I was like, but I need to keep him separate because if, if I come to the place of God tells me in the Sandy Elias Church, then this relationship isn't going to work. And I can't, I'm not going to force him to come along with me. That's not fair. Yeah, that's another. Thing too that we both at the time were very prayerful, yeah, this whole thing of like God, where do you want us? What do you want us to have during this situation? And we very much kind of prayed with where our relationship should be with everything. Yeah, and I was more of reading like a bajillion things. Yeah, she caught up to me like within the first three to four months of started reading material that I wasn't even aware of, just from the history and everything. Like finding things.

1:27:40 Yes. So she learned very quickly, Yeah. About polygamous history, Yeah. Interesting. OK, so you pepper him with these 300 questions and he just keeps cranking him out. Yeah. Yeah. What happens next? Well, I read a lot of stuff, so I was reading like journal discourses. I think I read A Woman of Mormond. During this time. I was looking into a lot of the history, all this kind of stuff, and I compiled a lot of things where it kind of became apparent to me of like, yeah, marriage is supposed to be practiced. But then also, like, I love the temple and everything. I was endowed when I was 19 years old and the other temple. And so the temple was very, very important to me. And so we're reaching this point where the only person I had talked to about it, so the only people who knew was my sister-in-law and my best friend. Those are the only people who knew in my personal life that he was fundamentalist and I was asking all these questions. So I told them and I told my sister-in-law, OK, I'm going to tell them.

1:29:00 And she was just like OK. And I kind of half ish told them because I kind of chickened out and. How do you half tell somebody that somebody's a fundamentalist? I was like, hey, say no how? Like I'm interested in looking in other religions. So I think from like time to time, there's this other church I'm going to go visit sometimes and yeah. OK, All right. So they're, they're thinking like she's going to go visit the Episcopalians, when in all actuality, you're like hanging with the fundies.

1:29:42 And like, I think there have been some things that kind of tip my mom off because like also a little bit before this, my mom was like, I feel like two or three of my children are going to leave the church. And I was just saying they're like. And so then they got home and I went to Dusty Boot and my sister or I think my brother was just like, oh, so did Michaela tell you? And my mom was like, tell me what? And so then while I was at Destiny Boot, I got a message from my parents of like, OK, you need to come home right now. They tried calling me a couple times. I don't have my phone on me when I'm dancing because it's annoying to have in my pocket when I'm dancing.

1:30:26 So I came home, they had an intervention with me, which they did in fact call an intervention, which then led to them not being happy about it. And kind of basically the only thing within fundamentalism I had gained the testimony of was plural marriage. And it eventually got to the point where I'm like, OK, I have so much pressure for my parents. Like if it's only plural marriage, like even the prompting that I got was whether in this life or the next, you'll live this. So. So maybe what will happen is like, I'll marry someone who has been married before and their wife dies, or like, I'll die and he'll remarry someone else or something.

1:31:13 I don't know. And like, I don't want to lose the temple and all these things. And so I'm like, OK, I'm going to stay. And I think there was a blessing and part of that too, of a, OK, you need to make sure you're doing this for the right reasons because I, I had developed feelings for him. And it that period of OK, no, I'm staying in the LA church. Help me to go, OK, what is my actual testimony and these things and making sure that the testimony I had was completely divorced from him. Yep, smart. So I'm grateful for that.

1:31:54 About mid January was when I was like, I can't do this anymore, can't talk to you. I, I need to distance myself from all this. And I kind of became angry and bitter for a time a little bit because like, he would try to bring things up and it would just start bites or I would bring things up and it would start bites. And so, and after I told him it was a Saturday that I told him. And then on Monday he'd reached out to me and he's like, can I just have a conversation with you? And when he texted me that I was actually at the gym with my best friend and she's like, this is not a good idea. And I love my best friend. She will support me forever.

1:32:39 But also she does not like fundamentalism very much. She's like, if that's what God is telling you to do, what am I to say? But also I do not like it. And I'm like, that's there. I'm not forcing you to come join me. So you're good. But she's like, this is not a good idea. And I'm like, OK, well, I'm going to go see Beauty and the Beast at Hale. And then I have dance class so we can meet in that little time between the two. And so you'd shut up. And he's like, I've hardly slept. The only thing that brought me in peace was Psalms. And you know the Psalms very well. Would you be willing to teach them to me? And I'm like, OK, they can agree to that under some conditions of one.

1:33:22 There's at least one other person there. So it's more like a tiny class class that I'm teaching and I need some space first. And so then we talked to a mutual friend of ours from the time. It was like, OK, you guys have to go no contact for two weeks. That's the only way that I will be the other person showing up for this little group thing. And keep in mind, this is where my head's at too, is during this time. I'm like, OK, if she's not going to be in the rest of my life because of what the Psalms had done and everything, it was for me, it was like, OK, let me at least have bats.

1:34:03 And then we can then part ways and then everything will kind of go back to normal, is what I thought would happen before I met her. So that's kind of where my headspace was at during tuition. Yeah. So we went no contact for one week and then we're like kind of ish talking again to set some things up and everything. It ended up because as I started working on it, I felt like I needed to include more in this and it was going to be bigger than I originally thought. And so we ended up doing this class. It was him and then two other guy friends. So it's three guys that I'm sitting there in one of the little rooms that a church building teaching. And so I just started with like some basic stuff and there's this project I've been working on for like almost two years at this point that I included in part of it too. We ended up never actually getting to solves. No, we didn't.

1:35:05 He still has yet to teach figures. Yeah, cuz we were like, I was like, OK, we'll start with the basics. We'll start with like, OK, we need to understand what symbolism is. We need to understand faith, health, charity, all these things. So we went through a lot of basics and everything, and during this time too, I'm like, OK, these topics are off limits because if we bring them up, we just wipe out them. Which I completely agree to. Yeah, it's like, OK then, no more. Yeah. But what I didn't tell anybody is I was still kind of looking stuff up on the side. And the reason I was doing that was, OK, well, I started getting a testimony in these things, or I did gain the testimonies in things, but in order to be in the Elias church, certain things have to be wrong. And so I need to prove them wrong and I need to show why they're wrong.

1:35:55 And so I was still looking into a lot of stuff, trying to prove it wrong, which was adding to my anger and bitterness. And then he sent me an episode of your podcast, which was funny because when I first saw it, I actually recognized the little thumbnail thing for it because about a year before I met him, it was after my institute teacher had been transferred to a seminary. I've been looking for podcasts because I'm like, I need something. And I had I, I was getting this institute podcast and some other podcasts. I actually came across your podcast. I almost clicked on it and it was just a like, no, you have enough podcasts now.

1:36:43 You can come back to this one later. And I was just like, OK, and then just kind of forgot about it. And so when he sent it to me, I'm like, oh, I recognize the symbol and everything. And it was the one you did with Isaac on ceilings by the temple. And he's like, well, and he sent it to me. And he's like, we can agree that the temple is good and we love the temple and everything. And you'll find this interesting. So I was like, OK, whatever. And I worked at a job where I get to listen to stuff all day, which is part of why I consume so much information is because I listen to stuff all day. So I listened to that and then I was like, oh, this is really good. I'm going to listen to some more. So I listened to others from from the Temple series that you did. And like somehow part of me didn't fully catch on that it was a fundamentalist podcast.

1:37:30 Like part of me knew, but also part of me didn't fully catch on yet for some reason. And I just got this wrong thing of, OK, you know, you want to know what to listen to next because you've finished these and everything. Go back to the very first episode and start there. Listen to the very first episode. And I was like. I'm. Sure. And so like, I scroll back to the beginning and it's Adam gone. And a few things leading up to this, I had a high comprehension speed. I've been testing out of reading tests since the 2nd grade. I read Sense and Sensibility in fifth grade for fun because I'm weird. And that that's just to say that like, I understand what I read, but anytime I'd ever tried to look into Adam God, I could not understand a single word on the page.

1:38:18 I could not comprehend anything. And then also my, my dad served his LDS mission in Canada where he had come across people who would either use this as like an argument against the church or something. I'm not exactly sure, but he would have to argue people on this all the time on this mission. And so when my parents had heard that I was reading the Journal of Discourses, they're like, OK, well, there's lots of good stuff in there, but also be careful because there's some weird stuff in there. And I was like, what weird stuff? And they're like, well, you know, there's like Adam God theory and like, it's just wrong. And I'm like, well, you don't need to worry about that because I've tried reading about it a couple times and like, my brain just does not comprehend like, so I'm not going to read anything on that. You don't need to worry.

1:39:02 And it was one of the questions I had asked him actually was, OK, where do you stand on out of God? And he's like, I don't know enough at this time to try to explain it to you. And that was kind of where he left. It was like very little explanation and like, I really can't. And so I was just like, OK, this is weird to feel prompted to listen to because this has never worked, but sure, why not? So I listened to Part 1, Part 2, overwhelmed with the spirit of like, this is true. And I was just like, Oh no. Oh crap. I can't have a testimony of this and really be in the church, at least with the way some people are. I've not been excommunicated yet. I did talk to my Bishop about it at one point. And he's just like, I don't understand what your issue is. I don't understand why this is a why you would even possibly believe this.

1:39:59 But anyway. And so the day that I listened to that was also the day that I was holding one of these little classes. And so at the end of it, I was like, OK, he's like, I need to talk to you because I just had a huge paradigm shift and I need to talk to someone about it. And I was supposed to go to a game night with some friends from high school that my best friend was hosting. And I was like, I'm so sorry. Something came up. I can't be there. And she was like, OK, but I do stuff with my best friend every week, so it's fine. She's gotten over it. And so we talked for a few hours. And I was just like, OK, this is what I listened to today, Brad. Here wasn't at 5 by the time we said it was done. No, 'cause cross ended at 7 and I think I went home at 9 or 10. So it was only two or three hours. OK, fair.

1:40:53 Not so about two or three hours. We just went to a park and walked around in circles and talked about it, 'cause I'm like, OK, I, I can't stay forever anymore. Like for now, I, I, I do need to be in the LDS church, but I can't keep fighting this because if I find it, then I'm fighting God and I can't fight God. And so, yeah, so then I listen to every, not every, all but 15 episodes of your podcast in the next four months because I. Pay attention to the guests, don't pay attention so much to me and you'll be fine Pay attention to the guys who are really smart to come on here so I. Enjoy your insights, I find them both hilarious. And insightful.

1:41:37 So I've listened to the Adam God episodes I think 6 Times Now. The John Taylor episodes five Times Now and then the Joseph Messer, Joseph White Messer ones three Times Now as I was like. Shout out to Jacob Badrine and Michael Ness, they hit that out. Of the park. Yeah, I'm like, OK, how much of this can I actually remember and keep in my head? Yeah, so much was so good. Yeah. And so I started going to the YSA and before I started going to YSA, my mom made me promise her that I would never say that I was going to the YSA. Well, actually going to a fundamentalist meeting. And so I was like, OK, I can agree to that. And then like, and that was that started in January. And so like for the next two to three months, like that wasn't an issue.

1:42:37 And then? Just just before we move on from Adam God, one question that I've heard that I feel like it needs to be in here is people wonder why sometimes that they try to look intellectually for Adam God and it doesn't work that way. It has to be from the Spirit and God's not going to give knowledge if the person is not willing to receive it in their heart. That's something that is so crucial with anything that God does because as the Scriptures say, you can give a gift, but you can't force a gift.

1:43:22 And it's not good for the receiver to curse the gift giver. It's something that God's just not going to do. And so with Adam, God specifically is the question has to be asked, are you wanting the implications of it being true in order to receive? You know, that's that's an excellent point because when I came, I remember when I accepted Adam, God, I couldn't explain it to anybody to save. My God. Right. I just couldn't. However, because I prayed about it and received a witness, I knew it was true, right? But a few months after I accepted it and got comfortable with it, after I got my answer, all the sudden things start coming out of the Scriptures where I'm like, there it is, right?

1:44:15 Like it's there. But we need to remember that that Adam, God is one of those things that was termed in the early days of the Restoration as the mysteries of godliness, right? And so I think it's a tender mercy of the Lord that he keeps those things hidden until you get to that point of being mature enough spiritually to handle that. And then you can receive the witness. Then you can go off intellectually. And I've tried to tell people all the time, if you can't wrap your mind around it, stop. Just stop. Hit your knees and then ask if it's true. And then your proofs will come after that. And it's counterintuitive, but it does kind of follow what we see in the Pearl Great price with Adam, right where he's offering sacrifices and the Angel shows up and goes, why are you offering sacrifices?

1:45:05 He's like, because God told me to and he's like, OK, now let me let me in on let, let me let you in on the secret here, right? Yeah. Adam, God works much the same way. Yeah. And for those who don't know, brief, very brief overview is that you have Adam, who is our current godfather of both body and spirit. Then he is also working with his father, and then so on and so forth in the Council of Gods. It's a family business. Yeah. Family business is a wonderful way to describe that, Yeah. Absolutely. Anyway, didn't mean to interrupt you, Michaela. Go ahead. Yeah. So April conference that they do. I attended the BBQ form and it was really interesting going to that because it was the first time I had ever really felt community at church before, which was funny because it wasn't even like actual church.

1:46:02 It was a barbecue. And I didn't go to the actual meeting itself because I wasn't able to. But yeah, that was really good. And then kind of things progressed and then set up a meeting for my dad to talk to him in July. The first one was July and then the second one was August. Yeah, 7 hour meeting. That's supposed to be like a get to know you thing. I left three hours in because I had to work in the morning and it was supposed to be like a get to know you thing.

1:46:44 It kind of turned into a theological debate, and that's what most of the conversations have turned into, which again, I don't like For the second one, the one in August, we went in with, OK, you're going to come and ask for a blessing. But if he says no, then oh wow, we're let. Him know. What we're doing it what we're going to date, but we would prefer your blessing. But if you're not going to give it, OK, because that's not going. To get at least we owe you the common courtesy of what we're doing. Yeah, at the very least, we're not trying.

1:47:25 As a dad of of three daughters, here's what I can tell you. If the only thing you were ever exposed to as far as fundamentalism is what came out of Short Creek during Lauren's reign, I get it. Yeah, I don't. Fault your parents one bit right I would if if knowing knowing who I am and if the shoe was on the other foot, I'd probably be like what in the bluest of blue Hells are you doing like this is this is dangerous. Don't, don't do this. So I, you know, I, I have some sympathy for your folks there, right? Because, because if that's all you know, right, you don't know about this other healthy, vibrant community in the Nielsen Naylors whose leadership just love their people, right? I and I've had the opportunity to talk to a few of them and, and, and I refer people there as as often as, as I can, if I think they fit, because I think they're, they love their people and they're doing the best they can for their people. And they have a lot of things right. But if you don't know that, if you don't know those men who are trying to just love their people and serve them the best they can and they're not engaged in all the Warren Jeffs stuff, you don't know.

1:48:47 You don't know what you don't know. And you can only respond with the knowledge you have. Yeah. And so like I very much struggled with my parents over the past about year, but I do understand it comes from a place of love and concern. My parents are very good people. They do their best and they're concerned for me. There's been a few times when I've tried to explain, but they do not understand at this time. And that's a struggle. But yeah. So we started dating in August. We had another meeting where I told him that I was going to be baptized into the Nielsen Naylor group, which happened in December.

1:49:35 And that and he was asking for my dad's blessing to propose to me. And one of the things my dad said was you don't need my permission, which was permission or not. It's not. It's kind of what he said from the beginning of you don't need permission to date my daughter. You don't need permission to marry her. Just know I disapprove. My parents really do not like it. But he professed me in December, so we're getting married at the end of April, so. You know, I, I, I want to say this, Michaela, right? Look, I joined Mormonism cold.

1:50:19 I joined the LDS church being the only member on either side of my family, right? And so I'm still the only Mormon on either side of my family. My wife Amber's family, they're pretty entrenched in the church, right? And so when everything comes out that this is what we're doing, right? Like, can't believe I'm going to spill this here, but I will. Like, we kept Amber's mom in the dark as much as we can with that first plural marriage that her mom, I think, made the assumption that I was screwing around on her daughter, right? And when that ended and Amber said I should probably tell my mom what happened, I'm like, I wouldn't just just let me take it, right?

1:51:05 Like, I I can take that. That's fine. But when it all comes out about what we're doing, it was rough. It was rough for a hot minute. But let me say this, there's hope, right? Right before the temple out here in Missouri was dedicated, I remember Amber came to me and Tanya's, you know, with us now. And we are firmly fundamentalist right beyond a shadow. Like I got online and went, I'm a fundamentalist. Like there's no going back, right? Amber comes to me just right before the dedication goes, I have a prompting.

1:51:46 I'm like, sweet, what is it? She's like, I think I should invite my mom out to tour the temple. I was like, you're nuts. Do not do that. And and she was like, no, I really feel like this is what we're supposed to do. And I'm like, OK, I was like, I'll pay for the plane ticket. Everything right? It's fine. Bring her out. And so she comes out and she agrees to take a tour of the temple. And I asked Tom zitting out here, great guy. I love Tom to death. I said, would you give my mother-in-law a tour? And he's like, well, why don't you just do it?

1:52:28 And I'm like, because I'm me and she's not going to take anything I have to say very well, right? And Tom was the perfect guy for that. He did such a great job and I got home. So we we went home that night. I had to run out and grab some dinner, right? We hadn't had dinner. It's about 7:30. I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to run down the road. I'm going to grab some five guys. I'll bring it back no problem. I get back and it's, it's my wife Amber, my mother-in-law and Tanya all doing pedicures together. And I'm like, now I can sit and enjoy this site, but I know my general presence will screw this up. So I'm just going to go upstairs, right? I'll go work on the podcast or something like that. But I'll, I'll say this with, with the birth of me and Tanya's son Asher, he he recently got pretty sick with RSV and was in the hospital.

1:53:28 My mother-in-law called Amber probably 3 or 4 times to check up on him. Right now, everything's not perfect. Everything's not smoothed over. No one's coming to join up with us. Right. But my point in that is that give it time, right? Once, once they start seeing that, you know what, Michaela's really thriving here, you know, and she really loves her husband and Zach really loves our daughter, those things pan soften. I'm not saying they're going to, but I don't think that it's without hope because look, if my mother-in-law who I just grade on, I understand, right? If, if those things can be overcome, certainly they can be overcome here.

1:54:12 Yeah, God's about bringing family together. Yeah, Yep, Yep. And it's going to take some time, but I have great hope and I think you should too. Thank. You, it's been interesting seeing different reactions cause like I've had people who are like completely disagree with you, but if this is where you're supposed to be, then who am I to say that? People who just get mad about a week, week and a half ago, I was told in a Mormon way that I'm going to hell, which is not them saying like you're going to hell. It's them giving me scripture verses to search up that tell me I'm going to hell. So I've received all sorts of responses. There have been times when I really struggled with it of like, what if I am making all this up? Which I I'm incredibly grateful because I've learned that the easiest way for me to hear God's voice is to start writing. So I have a notebook full of experiences that I've had and impressions I've had and things like that that have been very helpful to kind of sit and look through sometimes or to just remember and things like that.

1:55:26 But yeah, that's kind of where we're at now. Any wedding. And then I'm working on a podcast because like a year ago, I felt like that was something I needed to do, which scared me to death. I did not. I did not officially go, OK, fine. I'll do this until like January. And then he's like, oh, yeah, and you and you have to be OK with just admitting that you're fundamentalist now. You can't just like, be like, oh, I was raised in the church and leave without that. Like, yeah, so that's actually on YouTube now, so. What's the name of? The channel the Divine Daughter project, It's targeted for women, but if men want to look at it, I'm sure you can get stuff too. I would, I would encourage men to look at it because they are amazing things to help encourage my wife to do very, very nicely. Don't like force her into it obviously, but it's awesome from just a men perspective to look at it too. Yeah.

1:56:29 I'll throw a link. I'll throw a link to the channel in this episode's show notes. We'll to come out next week. Thank you and so. And so it's going through this project I've been working on for the past almost two years. And then I'm also going through The Woman of Mormon Dumb by Edward W Tullidge, because I just love that. That's an awesome book. So I, I've always said that's the book. Like there's a stigma surrounding fundamentalism that if you're a plural wife, it just means that you're beat down, right? And I've always said, do two things. Go to a fundamentalist meeting and then read Women of Mormondem. That will shatter your paradigm on the spot, right? Those women were not timid.

1:57:15 Those women were not quiet. Those women were out there fighting for what they believed, right? And, and I'm here for that kind of action. Yeah, I've also been reading the Discourses in Poetry of Elizar Snow that was published in 2024. I think there's three volumes of it on Amazon and it's just somebody went through all the Relief Society minutes they could find and pull anything that Elizar Snow said and compiled it. I'll get spicy with with Eliza R Snow and I'll call her exactly what I believe she was, which was a prophetess, right? I think she is OG strong as any of the early men. That came along. There was a reporter who came to Utah in early days of Utah to interview some people who was going to write a hit piece against the Mormons.

1:58:04 And she met Elizar Snow, talked to her, changed her article, wrote it about Elizar Snow, and called her the Hebrew prophetess. Yeah, yeah. Like she is. She is straight up. Yeah. Fight fighting for truth and she pulled no punches and she is not apologetic. Yeah. About it. She's going to let you know exactly where things are. Yeah. OK. So is there anything else you want to say here before I ask the final two questions, I think? That's all I had, so I. Got all right, Zach, if you could talk to you when you were in your lowest point, right when you're in that house alone, nothing to eat, going to Mom's place for some soup and some eggs and some some air, as you called it, for for nosebleeds, what would you tell yourself right then? This is going to sound a little weird, but take every moment you can and use it because that's one thing that I kind of wish I'd done a little less on is sitting on the couch scrolling. I would.

1:59:24 There are things that I could have done that if I had done it would have been better. I could have like I had an opportunity to play the like learn the guitar and piano and that kind of stuff. And I kind of wish I had done that is even if you're really going through a hard time, pray to God see what opportunities you do have, even when he's telling you to wait, because that's what that was, was him telling me to wait for things to become get ready. And so it sucks, sucks a whole lot, but take advantage of the time you have. Absolutely. OK, Michaela, what would you tell yourself going back now to the young woman who first got introduced to the Fundy guy who just happened to be a great dancer as well?

2:00:18 What would you tell? What would you tell her? Take a deep breath. It's going to be hard. You're going to receive a lot of pushback. Don't let it discourage you because what God wants you to do is the best thing to do. And that comes with trials and hardships and things like that. Esther face death. And right now I'm not facing death. And even if I do one day then forgot, it's worth it.

2:01:00 Absolutely perfect. Now I'm going to put you both on the spot. No problem. Back. Would you bury your testimony before we wrap up? Yeah, so my testimony is that God is still working with men today and the the the Mormon that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor taught. That is true. That is the gospel restored and it was not meant to be easy sacrifices brings forth the blessings of heaven and you will be paid for the seeds you sell, whether that be good or bad. And plural marriage in particular is the most beautiful thing here on earth when it's done correctly. There's many ways to do it wrong, I don't deny that, but it is the most beautiful thing and it is something to perfect. It's something to always get better AT and always ask God at your lowest moments as well,

2:02:34 because He is your Father and He desperately wants to help you. If whenever you're struggling, sometimes it's OK to have shouting matches I got because I've done that and it's interesting how much He does help you and it's not something I continually dwell on. Obviously be ready to receive because he will give you something, but your father is watching you and he cares about you so. Excellent, Michaela. God loves his children very, very much more than they can possibly understand.

2:03:21 To descend is one of the greatest things that someone can do. This was taught a lot in the early church. Our parents did that, our brother did that. And it's something that we have to do. Yeah. Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. For thou with me thy rot in the staff, they comfort me. The valley of the shadow of Death is a title that was used for mortality. This life is very hard. If it's not hard, you might want to double check yourself to see where you're at. We're going to go through fire, but the fire is what refines us. The pressure is what refines us. And God will be there with us through it all, no matter how hard it gets, even if it's hard to see, hear, or feel Him in our lives.

2:04:17 But He's going to be there, and He talks to His children no matter where they're at. And He will guide you no matter where you're at. Fantastic, fantastic. Well, you guys, I'm excited for you. I'm excited for April for you guys. I, I, I am just tickled to death. I hope, I hope you guys have find every joy you can. And Zach, let's have you back on the podcast. We've talked about that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You let me know when you're ready and, and I'll make the time. Michaela, I'm looking really forward to seeing what you do with your channel. I am super excited for it.

2:04:59 I think it is so needed to have these discussions from a faithful fundamentalist perspective, from, from, from a woman's perspective. So, and, and you're, you're smart and you're intelligent and I can't wait to see what you do with it. I, I think the world of both of you guys and I'm, I'm just looking forward to seeing what time does with you and, and, and how you can work with God more. So awesome. Hang out in just 5 minutes. All right. Absolutely. All right. Thanks for coming on guys.