The 5,000 Year Leap Discussion Group #6

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All right, it's 5 after.
We'll go ahead and get started

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here and then we'll we'll see if
anyone else joins us.

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I'll go ahead and give us an
opening prayer to start here.

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Our dear kind Father in heaven,
we come before thee at this

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time, so grateful for the
opportunity we have to come here

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and to discuss these principles
of, of the Constitution and our

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founding documents.
Help us, Father, to be able to

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engage with this material in a
way that is uplifting, that

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helps us to be able to grow
closer under thee and helps us

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also to be able to learn these
principles well enough that we

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might teach others these things.
That we might present a way of,

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of going about our business as,
as as things begin to worsen,

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knowing that that it was not
part of, of the original plan

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and that there is another way
forward.

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Would ask that you would just
bless us with, with your spirit

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that these things would be
pleasing to thee and would would

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be of most benefit to us and to
the rest of your children.

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We ask for these things humbly
in the name of Jesus Christ,

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Amen.
Amen.

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Are we recording?
Looks like we are recording

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good.
All right.

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So last week we went over, we
went over Principle 3 and we

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didn't, we made it all the way
through there, but we didn't get

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as far as I'd like.
And that's OK.

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Sometimes that's going to
happen.

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But we talked about virtuous and
moral leaders and the role they

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play in in our nation's founding
and well-being as well.

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And so this week, kind of a
little change up here, we're

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going to talk a lot more about
the role that religion plays in,

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in the country at large in, in
specifically in regards to those

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founding documents.
And so to, to start us off by

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doing that, I wanted to go ahead
and take a look at two different

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revolutions entirely.
I wanted to take a look at both

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the American and French
Revolution because I think

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there's some some striking
differences here and shows what

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the outcomes really are.
Taylor, would you mind just

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keeping an eye out for any hand
that goes up and then just give

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me a heads up if I miss that,
I'll try to keep my eye open as

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well.
Awesome, thanks, man.

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All right, so the French
Revolution, it goes from 1789 to

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1799, ten years.
The streets pretty much ran red

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with blood during that time.
Once the guillotine rolled out,

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there was no putting it back.
There were roughly somewhere

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between one 16,500 to 17,000
people who were sentenced to

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death by the Revolutionary
Revolutionary Tribunal executed

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total deaths.
Deaths range somewhere in the

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neighborhood of 40 to 50,000.
Those would be people who were

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killed without a trial, right?
Just mob, mob justice.

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And also people who died in
prison from from disease or

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waiting to be tried or executed.
This revolutionary tribunal they

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talk about right here, that's a
kangaroo court.

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What that was is essentially
you'd be lined up and then you'd

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have to essentially make the
case on why you were a

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revolutionary and not someone
who was counter to the

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revolution.
And a lot of aristocracy, a lot

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of noblemen and kings all all
lost their head there at the

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guillotine.
Moving on, sticking with the

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French Revolution, it it
effectively ends like I said in

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1799 when the coup of 18 Brumer
where Napoleon overthrew the

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directory and and replacing it
with the consulate.

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This act became the First Consul
is what Napoleon's title was.

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It abolished the revolutionary
government and inaugurated an

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authoritarian rule, culminating
in his crowning as Emperor as

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eighteen O 4 towards the end of
Napoleon's reign, I guess you

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could call it.
He kind of considers himself the

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rightful heir of the Holy Roman
Empire and makes sure that he is

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crowned accordingly.
So that's that's kind of the

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French Revolution.
It, it, it, it starts with a lot

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of bloodletting, and it doesn't
stop until another form of

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tyranny takes effect.
Now, when we contrast that with

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the American Revolution, it goes
from 1775 to about 1783.

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Some will say it ends a little
sooner than that, because

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Yorktown happens before that.
And once Yorktown, once, once

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the colonies beat Cornwallis at
Yorktown, the war is essentially

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over.
There's a few more skirmishes,

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but everything shifts to the
side of the colonies and Britain

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wears down for the most part.
At that point in in the

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revolution, again, approximately
only 24,000 to 2500 thousand

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British soldiers died during the
Revolutionary War, 25 to 30,000

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Americans in their war for
independence.

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Pretty close to the same
numbers, right?

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We're we're totaling somewhere
around 50,000.

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Here's the interesting thing.
The deaths directly related to

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violence of force was only about
8000 on the American side, which

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meant that a lot of those deaths
that were happening on the

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American side were happening
largely due to poor provisions

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and those sorts of things.
Not nearly as much blood running

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in the streets, I think, as what
we see in England.

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The CG Yorktown, I just talked
about that in 1781.

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That essentially ends it all
there.

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There'd be little skirmishes
going back and forth from, from

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between 81 and 82 and then
between 82 and 83.

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It's largely just negotiating
the terms of the peace.

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And it it pretty much ends in
Paris officially in 1783 when

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Franklin Adams and Jay formally
go over and end it.

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And then after that, there is a
significant period of peace.

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And America really, I mean,
there, there is the Barbary

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pirates incident where where we
deal, it's the first time we

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deal with Muslim extremists.
Kim, you're, you're kind of a

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you're you went, you were a
reservist for the Navy.

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Is that right?
Yeah, that's right.

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Do you you know the story of the
Barbary Pirates then?

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Yeah, a little bit.
That was that was kind of

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Jefferson's war on North Africa.
And, and you're right, it was a

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war against radical Muslims in
North Africa.

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They were taking Christian
slaves at the time.

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And Europe's policy was
basically to pay them off.

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And America was like, we can't
afford to pay you guys off, so

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we're going to go to war with
you instead and make this, make

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this stop if we have to.
Absolutely.

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Now, Tim, are are you, could
you, are you familiar with the

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Marine Corps history there with
the Barbary pirates?

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I think that their first really
successful campaign was Tripoli

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there on North Africa.
That's Libya or no?

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Yeah, No, I think you're right.
I think it's Libya.

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It's interesting.
The Marine Corps takes quite a

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bit of pride in that boy.
This is a side tangent.

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I apologize but the reason
they're called leathernecks was

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from that era.
They used to wear high leather

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collar specifically for this
incident so that it would be

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harder to have their heads cut
off.

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Also the sword that the, that
the core still carries today is

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called the Mameluke sword.
And that sword was, is a direct

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representation of the sword that
was surrendered to the Marine

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Corps and the the Navy after
that battle.

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And the name of the, the pirate
king or the Muslim Mullah,

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whoever it was, however you want
to refer to him, his name was

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Mameluke.
And so that's our first

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skirmish.
And it actually I found it

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interesting years and years ago
when I found out our first real

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skirmish as a country was
against Muslim extremism.

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Doesn't have much bearing.
Just an interesting side

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tangent.
So all right, so that's kind of

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the American Revolution.
It gets what it wants and it

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kind of stops right now.
We know that's not this, you

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know, the end of the problems.
There's going to be a a crisis

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in terms of the Articles of
Confederation not being able to

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hold the country together.
But by and large, there's peace

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there.
It it wouldn't be till after, I

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believe it's after the the
Constitution is ratified that we

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have the Whiskey Rebellion.
But again, it's a very minor

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skirmish and it pretty much
Washington's presence is enough

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to put it down.
So what was the difference?

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Well, let's I want to read this
from the French Revolution.

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During the French Revolution,
the 1790s, angry mobs and

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revolutionaries looted medieval
Gothic churches and even

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declared that it wasn't a church
at all.

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During a bloody push to remove
France's close ties to the

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Catholic Church, more than two
dozen statues affixed to the

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church facade were publicly
decapitated.

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It's actually way worse than
that.

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The Cathedral of Notre Dame
during the French Revolution is

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actually seized upon and it said
this is no longer a church, this

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is a temple of enlightenment.
And they weren't using the term

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enlightenment like the founding
fathers would have.

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This was very human centric.
This was humanist in its

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movements.
And this had much more to do

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with wealth than it did for
liberty.

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And there was an animosity
between a lot of the

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revolutionaries in France and
religion in general, certainly

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the Catholic Church, but
religion in general.

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This is, in my opinion, the
first time we see the West start

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to make a push to get away from
kind of judeo-christian

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tradition and not, not in the
realm of the positive, right?

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This, this is going dark in a
hurry in France.

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Now, if we compare what had
happened with the American

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Revolution.
During the American Revolution,

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the Continental Congress called
for at least 16 spiritual

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proclamations for fasting and
prayer and Thanksgiving, with

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National days of Humiliation
fasting and prayer being

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declared at least twice a year
throughout the entirety of the

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American Revolution.
These days were used to seek out

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divine intervention.
When we start to assess the

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differences between the French
Revolution and the American

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Revolution, why 1 ends up giving
birth to the United States.

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And you remember, remember that
video I first played for us at

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the beginning of this class
where where Joe Rogan talked

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about it?
It, you know, started an engine

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of creativity from a
technological standpoint, the

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arts, music, culture, you name
it. 11 revolution ends in that.

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The other ends in Napoleon.
And you wouldn't get real French

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liberty for quite a while after
that.

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And it really does come down to,
in my opinion, who are you

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serving, right?
Are you serving yourself or are

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you serving God?
And those two things seem to

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tell the tale of the difference
between the French Revolution

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and the American Revolution.
Does anyone have anything they'd

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like to add on this before we
move forward?

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OK, good deal.
To illustrate this point

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further, I want to focus on this
guy, Thomas Paine.

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Paine is is like the revolution,
the American Revolution's

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biggest cheerleader in in those
early days in the in the in the

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revolution.
He has major works like Common

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Sense, which really makes the
the case and really galvanizes

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public favor opinion in favor of
the revolution.

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Then there's the American
crisis.

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And this is this is the where we
get that phrase.

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These are the time that try
men's souls or you know, we'll

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remember the sunshine patriots.
This is his work and he writes

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it at the lowest point in the
revolution and, and in my

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opinion, he kind of salvages
public influence or public

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opinion around the revolution.
And then after the revolution,

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he writes 2 works called The
Rights of Man and the Age of

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Reason.
And we'll talk a little bit

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about those here in a second.
But Thomas Paine starts off as

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an ardent patriot in line with
the principles of the American

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Revolution.
Thomas Payne ends up looking

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over at France.
And he ends up saying like, hey,

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it's spreading.
This is a good thing.

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I should go over here to France,
and I should pump them up the

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same way that I pumped up the
American Revolution.

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And before he goes, Washington
starts to hear about all this.

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And Washington tells Governor
Morris, who's the envoy to Paris

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at the time, go warn this guy
about what he's doing, telling

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him, tell him this isn't the
same same revolution we were

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fighting.
So Morris actually does what

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Washington says and even
delivers a letter to from

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Washington.
And we don't have that letter

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anymore.
But from, from the way some

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people have talked about it from
the time period, Washington's

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almost, you know, chiding or or
chastising Pain a little bit

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like you should be able to see
this.

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This should not come as a
surprise to you.

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Don't go over there.
This is not the same thing.

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But Pain does it anyway.
But and when he first shows up

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00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,000
in Paris, he's welcomed and as a
hero.

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00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:07,600
They love him, He and then later
on he starts to see all the

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00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,880
killing and he goes, yeah, I'm
not in favor of this, right?

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00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,240
I'm not down with this.
Even the killing of the king.

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00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,200
He he's like, we should not do
this.

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00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:21,560
There's this is different.
And Washington's words, I

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00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,960
imagine a ringing in his ears
now as he sees this.

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00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,560
Well, when he speaks out and
says don't, don't do this.

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00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,920
Don't make the blood, don't make
the streets run with blood,

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00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,520
right?
He's actually labeled as a

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00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,680
counter revolutionary.
Now when he first goes to

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00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,520
France, they love him so much.
At first they're they're like,

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00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,720
you know what?
We'll give you citizenship as a

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00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,720
Frenchman as well as an
American.

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00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,960
So this is the first guy that
has dual citizenship.

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00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,440
But the downside of that is once
they label him a counter

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00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:59,640
revolutionary, he's under their
purview and he's in prison for

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00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,080
just over a year and was
sentenced to death.

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00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,319
He was supposed to go face the
guillotine as well.

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00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:12,920
Finally, Washington after a few
pleas, he he's like, OK, we got

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00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,920
to go get our boy.
And so he he replaces Governor

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00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,599
Morris, not because he was doing
a bad job, but for this

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00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:25,280
particular instance, James
Monroe fits better, does the job

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00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,240
better.
So he installed.

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00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:32,840
So Washington installs Monroe as
the as the new envoy to Paris

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00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,200
and sends him over.
And then Paine is released from

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00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:40,640
prison.
And even though Washington tried

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00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:45,600
to help him out by telling him
first, not to go to France and

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00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,760
then second, bailing him out, he
harbors a deep grudge against

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00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,640
Washington for the rest of his
life.

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00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,800
Excuse me.
So what happened to Thomas

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00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,440
Paine?
Well, if we look at his last two

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00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:07,080
books, what we can see is that
pain actually unhinges from God.

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00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:13,920
He he begins to move past God.
He he's at best a deist.

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00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:18,400
And we'll cover what a deist is
more later because it's a a a

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00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,120
charge that's leveled on the
founding fathers quite a bit

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00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:26,400
from modern day academia.
That in my opinion is just it's

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00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,800
laughable.
Quite honestly, it's up there

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00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,160
with Joseph Smith didn't
practice plural marriage and

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00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,520
Brigham Young and John Taylor
killed Joseph Smith.

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00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,600
It is that laughable.
But certainly by the time you

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00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:44,080
get to his last book, the age of
Reason, he is taking a hard turn

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00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:48,360
towards atheist atheism.
And this would be something that

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00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:53,280
would stick, what would become a
a sticking point between both

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00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,400
Washington and paying the rest
of their lives.

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00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:01,240
But once he unhinges from God,
it's interesting that he can't

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00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,000
see down the road like
Washington could and said, this

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00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,800
is not the same revolution
that's happening in France that

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00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:14,680
we fought here.
And so again, they just end on

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00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:22,400
really bad terms.
The founders, however, were were

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00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:29,040
impressed and they were stalwart
in their opinions that religion

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00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,880
had to be part of the formula
for the American system of

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00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,280
government to work.
This comes from the Northwest

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00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,600
Passage, this the Northwest
Ordinance, excuse me, that was

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00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,800
passed in 1787.
Basically, I believe it's this

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00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:53,280
act that even ends up
encompassing part of it gets in

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00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:58,040
all of Ohio, Michigan, kind of
those upper Midwest states.

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00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:04,120
And when they do, they they say,
OK, there's some things that we

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00:20:04,120 --> 00:20:10,280
want to make sure continue on
here throughout throughout this.

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00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,640
We're going to expand as a
nation, but we need to make sure

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00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,920
that the charter is clear.
And this is from Article 3 of

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00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,360
the Northwest Ordinance.
Religion, morality, knowledge

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00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:25,440
being necessary to good
government and the happiness of

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00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:30,440
mankind, Schools and the means
of education shall forever be

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00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,800
encouraged.
Now what's interesting here is

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00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,480
that this is one place and we're
going to, we're going to talk a

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00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,120
little bit about the separation
of church and state today as

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00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:43,680
well.
But this should be something

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00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,040
that that we should keep in mind
going forward.

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00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,120
Past this discussion group
passed our time in the book.

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00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,000
This to me shows the founders
original intent.

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00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:03,800
If we look at the date, we are
not very far past the revolution

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00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:09,400
and this this will show you
where their mind was.

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00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:17,040
And so we do see that the
education and religion were

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00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:22,480
designed by the founders to have
some close proximity.

301
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:30,120
And there's a there's a a good
reason for that when we look at

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00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:33,360
the three areas of learning that
the founders put forward.

303
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,440
The first was religion.
Right might be defined as a

304
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,160
fundamental system of beliefs
concerning man's origin and

305
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,880
relationship to the cosmic
universe as well as his

306
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,840
relationship with his fellow
man.

307
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,760
Morality being described as a
standard behavior, behavior

308
00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,600
distinguishing right and wrong,
and knowledge and intellect,

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00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,720
awareness and understanding of
established facts relating to

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00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:04,120
any field of human experience.
And so again, just pointing out

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00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:09,040
that that religion and
government, why they were to

312
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:15,080
remain separate, enjoyed a close
proximity to to one another.

313
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,560
And the founders recognized it.
And I believe it was their

314
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,400
intent that religion would
continue to be practice and

315
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:27,000
talked about openly because they
understood that it was necessary

316
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:29,560
for the American system of
government.

317
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,280
Hey, does does anyone have
anything they want to add

318
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,600
comments or questions about this
this section here that we've

319
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:45,600
just covered?
Hey, can you hear me OK?

320
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:54,840
I can hear you A.
Little distracted, but just on

321
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,520
the topic of religion and
relationship with government, I,

322
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,640
I, well, I agree that there was
a general intention for religion

323
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,400
to be a prominent force and a
prominent institution in the

324
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,560
American Society.
I think what we're seeing today

325
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,360
is a bit of a, a devolution
where it's, it's a lot of

326
00:23:15,360 --> 00:23:19,160
religions seem to be kind of Co
opted by government and rather

327
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,480
than serving God, they seem a
lot more interested in, in

328
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,800
serving the government.
I mean, certainly with the COVID

329
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,400
lockdowns, how many churches?
I mean, there were some churches

330
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,800
that absolutely did stand up and
fight and said we're not

331
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,520
shutting down.
The government can't tell us

332
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,280
that we can't worship, but a lot
of a lot of churches not only

333
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,360
fell in line with that, they
also promoted the government

334
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,560
talking points.
And that's a complete.

335
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:59,320
Kind of lost you there, Justin.
So Justin makes a very good

336
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:05,720
point, which is and and we're
going to cover this more in the

337
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:12,000
class, but the, the oftentimes
the way the separation of church

338
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:17,880
and this, excuse me, church and
state has put forward today is

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00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,560
that it's the government having
to be protected from religion.

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00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,120
And I think what we'll see later
on is that that's kind of on its

341
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,640
head.
But Justin, that that is a good

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00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,000
point.
And we're we're going to get

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00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:35,240
there for sure.
Anybody else?

344
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,760
Yeah.
So coming from the England

345
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:43,320
Anglican style where there was
literally a state religion, what

346
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,600
that that is a conflation.
That's like a, a joining

347
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,120
together in a terrible way
because now it's not a voluntary

348
00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:57,080
conversion or choice of of your
belief if you want to survive

349
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:03,000
politically or even economically
or are really literally like if,

350
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,120
if you don't want to get killed
as a heretic, you got to join

351
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:10,080
the state religion.
I think that's what the primary

352
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,440
motive of that comment of a
wall, a separation and and just

353
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,560
it's it's like you were saying,
it's been so grossly

354
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,560
misinterpreted, misapplied these
days.

355
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,880
But that's what they were,
that's what they were concerned

356
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,760
with and that's what they were
trying to get rid of was a

357
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,800
central state-run cause cause
basically, as I don't think it

358
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,360
was in this these chapters, but
I think it's comes up later in

359
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:41,320
the book.
Government is not eloquence,

360
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,200
it's not persuasion, it's force.
And you don't want to force

361
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,600
anybody to adopt A certain
belief because that violates

362
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,440
this principle of freedom,
agency and that sort of thing.

363
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,920
So I think that that's really
what Jefferson was getting at

364
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,520
with that comment on the
separation of church and state.

365
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,560
It wasn't that the government
had to be protected from

366
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,280
religious influence.
It was that religious influence

367
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:17,080
had to trump government
involvement.

368
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,600
It the the religious
institutions had to be

369
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:26,120
unfettered by government
partiality or preference or any

370
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:28,480
of that sort of thing.
Absolutely.

371
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,960
And like I said, we're going to
cover that here in a second.

372
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,040
But it is such a key point and
it's important to keep in mind

373
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,760
because today I believe this has
been inverted.

374
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,160
It's been tipped up on its head
and it needs to be set back

375
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,160
right so we can understand
exactly what's happening.

376
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:56,720
Anybody else?
OK, so the first thing that we

377
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:02,880
often get told is that the
founders meant for this to be

378
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,040
kind of a, a religious
nationalist government.

379
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,800
And I don't see that.
I don't, I think you have to

380
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,520
stretch credulity a little bit
to get there.

381
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,000
And I'll, I'll present some some
reasons for that.

382
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,240
Why?
But they definitely weren't

383
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,360
interested in a Muslim
nationalist country, a Jewish

384
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:30,520
nationalist country, even a
Christian nationalist country.

385
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:34,120
And I'm I'm certain since it
didn't exist, they weren't

386
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:36,200
concerned about a Mormon
nationalism.

387
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,920
They had something else in mind.
It was far more inclusive than

388
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,320
that when it came to religion.
And this is from Ben Franklin to

389
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,160
Yale President Ezra Stiles.
And Franklin said, here's my

390
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,880
creed.
I believe in one God, the

391
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,400
creator of the universe, that he
ought to be worshipped, that the

392
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,520
most acceptable service we can
render to him in doing good,

393
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,120
excuse me, to him, is in doing
good to his other children, that

394
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:12,600
the soul of man is immortal.
And what will be treated with

395
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,880
justice in another life
respecting its conduct in this

396
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,480
these I take to be the
fundamental points and all sound

397
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,480
religion.
So here Franklin is illuminating

398
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,080
that in in sound religion,
right?

399
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:35,400
Notice he didn't specify a
specific religion itself, a

400
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:41,080
specific deity even.
He just says good sound religion

401
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,320
are going to have these things.
And so I broke these down and I

402
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,480
want to talk about them a little
bit and why they're important

403
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,880
for the success of the American
system of government.

404
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,480
First, the acknowledgement that
there is a Creator who made all

405
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,240
things and mankind should
recognize and worship him.

406
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,760
Why is that important for for
good governance in America?

407
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,560
Well, it's one of the
foundational things is like due

408
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,600
process and presumed innocent
before proven guilty.

409
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:25,440
If you, if you believe that
there is a God and he will hold

410
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:31,280
all men accountable for their
actions in this life, and then

411
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:36,040
you don't have to be worried
about somebody getting away with

412
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:41,640
a crime, right?
Because when, when you are, when

413
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,600
you have faith that even if
there's problems in this earthly

414
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:51,760
court system that God sees all,
then then we can have a, a

415
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,800
confidence in justice being
ultimately done.

416
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,320
And if we're going to err,
wouldn't it be way better to err

417
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,840
on the side of presuming
innocence than accidentally

418
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,760
punishing an innocent man, you
know, convicting somebody that

419
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:12,640
that didn't do a crime?
So that's, I think though that's

420
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:18,520
one of the this particular point
of good religion is found

421
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:24,880
fundamental to the the principle
of due process and, you know,

422
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,960
presuming innocent, being
presumed innocent until proven

423
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,440
guilty. 100% if I'm not
mistaken, Joseph Smith had a

424
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,840
quote to the effect of I would
rather see 10 guilty men go free

425
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,040
than to wrongly convict an
innocent man.

426
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,640
And So what you're saying there?
Even Joseph Smith backs up good

427
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,360
stuff.
OK, let's move on to three or

428
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,560
two and three, because I think
they kind of go together.

429
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,800
The Creator has revealed A moral
code of behavior for happy

430
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:02,000
living which distinguishes right
from wrong, and the Creator

431
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:06,120
holds mankind responsible for
the way they treat each other.

432
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,040
Does anybody want to talk about
that a little bit?

433
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,560
Does anyone have anything they
want to add to those?

434
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,600
I think this one would be that
if the nation was full of evil

435
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,280
men, well then our laws wouldn't
suffice to combat that evil.

436
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,000
And and these crazy is just a
recognition that there is right

437
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,680
from wrong, there is good and
evil.

438
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,400
And so we need to encourage
religion and morality in our

439
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,480
country in order to stay on top
of that, because the government

440
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,640
isn't and shouldn't be big
enough to do that for a country

441
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,160
full of evil men. 100 percent,
100%.

442
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,240
You know, the the thing that
those two things reminded me of

443
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:52,160
is King Benjamin's sermon,
right?

444
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,080
When you're in the service of
your fellow being, you're only

445
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,880
in service of your God.
And then we go back to what

446
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,560
Franklin says where he said, you
know, that that will be

447
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,880
accountable to him.
And the best way we can render

448
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,520
service to him is by rendering
service to his children.

449
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,240
They're they're eerily
reminiscent.

450
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,400
And I'm not making the case that
Joseph took these ideas.

451
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:23,160
A lot of these writings were not
within Joseph's purview of being

452
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,680
able to handle, nor do I think
that at his at the age that he

453
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,600
wrote the Book of Mormon, I'm
not sure he would have

454
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,720
comprehended them immediately.
So this idea that maybe he took

455
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,800
it and then twisted it and put
in the Book of Mormon holds no

456
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,760
weight for me whatsoever.
But nonetheless, the principle

457
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,360
is the same across across the
the spectrum.

458
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,920
You know, charity's a good way
of looking at this.

459
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,720
And I think this is a reason why
it's so necessary.

460
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,400
With every right there is a
responsibility and with the

461
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:11,120
right of, you know, the, the
rights of, of, you know, the,

462
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,800
the right to life, liberty and
the pursuit of happiness, there

463
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,800
is responsibilities.
And I believe some of those

464
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,920
responsibilities are that we
help out our fellow citizens

465
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,040
when we can, when they're in
trouble, before we go seek

466
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:27,960
redress from the from the
government.

467
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,400
It's our responsibility to look
out for our neighbor.

468
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,680
If we don't want the government
taking excessive taxes under the

469
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:43,640
guise of, of, of helping out the
needy, then we have to fill the

470
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,520
gap.
We have to be able to step up

471
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,480
and say, OK, that's going to be
my responsibility.

472
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,200
I am my brother's keeper.
And so these things tie in

473
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,160
directly to that two and three,
especially about how we treat

474
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,480
each other.
And I think it it speaks a

475
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:05,200
little bit to the responsibility
we have as citizens to look out

476
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,600
for one another when we can
without government interference.

477
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,840
I saw a meme once where the
Savior's teaching on, on, on

478
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:22,360
that the sermon of the Mount and
somebody from the Jesus says, if

479
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:27,239
if you know somebody sues you
for your coat, take two or, or

480
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,320
give him two or or something
like that.

481
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,320
No, it's if he sues you for your
cloak, just give it to him.

482
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,040
And then someone from the
audience says, so you want us to

483
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,520
give it to Caesar and then
Caesar will distribute it.

484
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,040
And the Savior says, OK, let me
start again.

485
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:48,480
It's kind of in that same vein.
It's on us.

486
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,639
It's not on the government.
And I think if we want the

487
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:55,480
government out of those things,
then we have to step up to fill

488
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,520
the vacuum on where that stands.
Anybody else?

489
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,080
I'm back.
Sorry about that.

490
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:04,360
You're.
No, you're good, dude.

491
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,080
So, you know, it's growing up in
the 90s was a very high trust

492
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,560
society.
As a kid, we'd play outside at

493
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,680
dark, we'd ride our bikes across
town.

494
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,800
And these these things were OK
to do because we lived in a, in

495
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:25,320
a high trust society, similar
types of not cities we see with

496
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,800
things like shopping carts at
grocery store to put a deposit

497
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:37,720
in a coin in to, to be able to
get a shopping cart out or just

498
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,760
obey obedience to traffic laws
and not harassing people on the

499
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,120
road.
There's so much about our lives

500
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,720
in our interactions with people
that is fundamentally kind of

501
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,480
grounded in a belief, a shared
belief in morality.

502
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,160
And when you don't have that,
not only does government go bad,

503
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,920
just life goes bad.
You, you go to the Walgreens and

504
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,520
everything's locked behind doors
and you, you need to get

505
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,400
somebody to, to get your
deodorant out of the out of the

506
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,400
shelf because that's a, that's a
low trust because we're becoming

507
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,560
a more lower and low trust,
lower trust society, right?

508
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:17,240
And that's really an indication
of of the the failing of the

509
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:22,280
institutions of religion.
Absolutely, because.

510
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,920
There's times in life where
there's nobody there to to

511
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,520
arrest you, there's nobody there
to find you, there's nobody

512
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,720
there to punish you if you don't
do good.

513
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:38,720
The only reason to is because of
an innate belief in goodness.

514
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:45,280
And if people don't have that
anymore, forget God missed our

515
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,640
families, our neighborhoods, our
society decays and.

516
00:36:55,150 --> 00:36:59,390
Absolutely, absolutely.
I, I couldn't have said that any

517
00:36:59,390 --> 00:37:04,270
better myself.
I, there, there is so much that

518
00:37:04,270 --> 00:37:07,390
we're lacking right now and, and
sometimes it, I think it makes

519
00:37:07,390 --> 00:37:13,430
it feel like we're trying to
force a round peg into a square

520
00:37:13,430 --> 00:37:16,160
hole.
It's just not working because I

521
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,720
don't think we have have the
proper mindset to to make it

522
00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:23,680
work anymore.
And we have to wake up to that a

523
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,400
little bit.
And to Justin's point about your

524
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,720
the authorities aren't going to
always be there.

525
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:35,880
I think for a large portion,
probably the first 120, maybe

526
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,120
150 years, there wasn't massive
law enforcement around.

527
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,600
And yet people made it by just
just fine.

528
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,040
There wasn't FEMA, there wasn't
those other things.

529
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,880
And certainly people fell
through the cracks.

530
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,440
I don't want to minimize that,
but by and large, people got

531
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,880
taken care of.
How did that happen with the

532
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,040
absence of a government?
And I think the answer is we

533
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:05,560
were schooled better through our
religions in in, in Christ, like

534
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,200
living, if you will, or, or
servant leadership, whatever you

535
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,920
want to call it.
Vanessa, I see your hand up.

536
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,160
Yeah, I was just wanting to make
a comment on that, that idea.

537
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:21,120
You know, a lot of the
justification for what the

538
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,720
government does is, well, what
about the poor people?

539
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:28,320
What about those in need?
And I know that Bastiat writes

540
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,280
about it.
It's called like for it's called

541
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,120
forced fraternity, which is
doing good, but you're forced to

542
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:36,000
do it.
So there's no virtue in that.

543
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,160
And that's it still needs to be
done, but it has to be

544
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,320
voluntarily done through
religious groups and communities

545
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,080
and people voluntarily helping
their neighbor and not a

546
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,240
government entity stepping in
and filling that role. 100

547
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:55,280
percent, 100%.
Vanessa, great point.

548
00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:02,160
You know, the other thing is,
and as we're seeing in

549
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,120
Minnesota, the government is
horrible at charity.

550
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,520
I mean, just horrible.
They waste more than they then

551
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,160
they they, they help and that's
if they really mean to help and

552
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:16,640
they're not just laundering
money.

553
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,720
They're no good at this.
Who is good at this?

554
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:29,600
Are are typically churches.
I remember, I remember I had

555
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,280
knew a guy who was just content.
I shouldn't say he was content.

556
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:41,080
He was resigned to living on, on
public assistance.

557
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,720
And look, sometimes that's going
to happen.

558
00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:45,080
I don't want to bash anybody for
that.

559
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,000
Sometimes, you know, that
happens.

560
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,400
And I, I, I'm not so radical
that I say we shouldn't have a,

561
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,920
a safety net at all.
I think if we can afford it, a

562
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,880
small safety net is fine.
I just don't want it to be a

563
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,240
cookie jar.
But at any rate.

564
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,200
This was during my days in the
LDS church.

565
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:12,720
And he had finally just kind of
had enough, came to the Bishop

566
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:15,120
and told him what was going on.
And I watched the process

567
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,320
because I was in the Bishop
brick, but got this guy on his

568
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,680
feet, got him contributing, got
him being productive.

569
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,600
And he was so much happier after
that because he was of service,

570
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,160
right?
Even though he was being paid,

571
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,480
he was still of service.
And I think there's so much of

572
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,720
that that goes into this.
And my, my point here is that

573
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,880
that Bishop and that man could
sit down together and reason

574
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,800
through these things and in, in,
in, in a far better way than

575
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,440
what the government could
administer.

576
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,560
Charity was able to be
administered at the same time,

577
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:56,080
the the recipient of that was
given opportunities to better

578
00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:01,360
his himself and his situation.
He took full advantage and then

579
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:05,320
got off of the assistance and
then became a contributor.

580
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:07,480
And I think that should be the
aim.

581
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:09,760
But the government doesn't work
that way.

582
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,800
The government's not equipped
for that.

583
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:18,920
Once a government bureaucracy is
in is set in place, it almost

584
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:24,840
becomes entirely concerned with
its own self preservation.

585
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:30,920
And so it doesn't behoove them
to actually cure poverty or to

586
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,240
help people get on their feet.
They only get the money and they

587
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:38,520
only have jobs when there's
people on the rolls.

588
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,640
And so it never really helps to
to get rid of anything.

589
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:49,600
It just just basically makes the
people into a form of slave and

590
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,480
and that would be one of those
other reasons concerning 3 and

591
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,440
4.
Yeah, I think it's super

592
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,480
important we we stand in that
gap and fill that

593
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:03,800
responsibility, Taylor.
Yeah, so going back to the the

594
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,760
principle here of morality and
religion being indispensable,

595
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:12,880
the, the way that the lobbyists
and the politicians and the

596
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:20,000
special interest groups was even
able to be to get people to not

597
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:26,080
like revolt immediately to begin
with when these bills to like

598
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,760
create welfare programs and that
sort of thing were coming up.

599
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,920
The, the, the reason that they
were even able to be successful

600
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,800
at that at all is because of the
failure of the personal and and

601
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,080
religious institutions to stand
in that gap.

602
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,080
And so I think that the the
government that we're getting

603
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:52,720
nowadays is a direct consequence
of the failure of the people to

604
00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:57,280
be religious and, and morally
and virtuous, not necessarily

605
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,600
the other way around.
You know, it's certainly the

606
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,640
government causes people to be
immoral when it has immoral laws

607
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,360
that reward indolence and, and
the wrong things.

608
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:14,160
But it came about it from to
from, to begin with, from the

609
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,320
failure of religions and more
moral people.

610
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,120
So I think that's a really
important thing to note it to,

611
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:27,000
to make note of if the people
had actually stepped up in those

612
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:32,560
hours of need when, when people
were hurting and, and, and, and

613
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:37,880
in need, they wouldn't have
never had a case to make as

614
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,360
politicians to create a welfare
state.

615
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,280
Absolutely.
I think I've told the story

616
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,560
before.
I may not have, but like, in my

617
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:54,120
opinion, one of the best
presidents that we've ever had

618
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,440
is Calvin Coolidge.
And people like raise their

619
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,520
eyebrows because they've never
heard of the guy.

620
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:05,520
But he comes into power be if
I'm not mistaken, the president

621
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:08,520
died either of natural causes or
an assassination, I can't

622
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,120
remember.
But he comes in when he takes

623
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:14,480
the oath of office.
He takes it by candlelight when

624
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,400
he leaves office.
Most houses have a radio in them

625
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:22,880
now, electricity and indoor
plumbing.

626
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:29,160
And he, he kind of presides over
the time that's the Roaring 20s

627
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,320
and the roaring 20s gets looked
at as a time of great

628
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,160
disparaging, a great great
greed.

629
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,120
And don't get me wrong, there
were certainly greed there, but

630
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:47,960
there was also just just good
old fashioned ingenuity and

631
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,880
advancements in, in living
situations.

632
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:54,800
Because as Coolidge comes in,
they're already facing a, a, a

633
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,000
potential depression.
It was pretty much already a

634
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,480
depression.
And when asked what he was going

635
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:08,520
to do, he confers with an
economist who was of the

636
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,320
opinion.
You leave it alone and you let

637
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,240
the market correct.
And that's what happened.

638
00:45:13,720 --> 00:45:15,440
And that gave birth to the
Roaring 20s.

639
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:20,120
Anyway, Coolidge presides over a
time when Texas was hit with

640
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:25,000
just a nasty, nasty flood.
Homes lost everything else.

641
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:31,200
And the progressives, the early
the early progressives wanted

642
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:36,040
Coolidge to do something.
They wanted him to mobilize the

643
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,200
National Guard or, or send money
down there or something.

644
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,400
And Coolidge said no, I'm not
going to do that.

645
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,680
And when asked why, he said I
have faith in the American

646
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,640
people that they will step up
and do their duty.

647
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,160
And he was correct.
That whole town got rebuilt by

648
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,640
their neighbors and by
themselves, and it was done

649
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,760
largely through religion,
through philanthropies and

650
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,760
through private individuals.
And this idea that we could fill

651
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,360
that gap, it seems so foreign to
us now, like Taylor's pointing

652
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:10,800
out.
But it's not been that long ago

653
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,600
that we were doing it as
Americans.

654
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,960
We just have to go back to that.
And, and it does, it's a, it's a

655
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,240
problem that feeds itself.
Cause imagine how much more

656
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,960
generous we would be capable of
being if we didn't have any tax

657
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,120
burden, right, 'cause you, you
think back before 1913, there

658
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,760
was no income tax, There was no
like taxation.

659
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,720
It was primarily funded through
tariffs and the states could

660
00:46:36,720 --> 00:46:39,720
impose taxes.
But like, that's such a foreign

661
00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:43,720
concept to us nowadays.
And yet that was just that was

662
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:48,680
the life of the early American
frontier era, so.

663
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,200
That was part of being American.
I mean, that was just, that was

664
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,840
part of it.
You had your rights, but you had

665
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,480
your responsibilities too.
And I would say this as as you

666
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,960
read through your rights, be
cognizant of that right as you

667
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:05,360
read through the 2nd Amendment.
Now ask yourself what's my

668
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,880
responsibility in regards to the
Second Amendment and come up

669
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,000
with that and, and be just as
concerned with your

670
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,600
responsibilities as you are with
your rights and that will carry

671
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:21,600
things forward quite a bit.
Anybody else on these on on two

672
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,400
and three before we wrap up this
part here on 4:00 and 5:00?

673
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:29,480
I hate to drag this out anymore
but I kind.

674
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,640
Of your.
Desire to step onto a soapbox

675
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,880
for a moment and just say that a
lot of these problems can be

676
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:43,040
traced back to a certain failure
of of churches to be honest and

677
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,880
the rise of the mega church in
America.

678
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,200
Right now.
There's a big case out in Texas

679
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,640
where a bunch of hired pastors
of the Second Baptist Church

680
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,600
basically changed the bylaws and
stole 100 year old church for

681
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,880
themselves while they were in
power.

682
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,600
You got the the charismatic
movement.

683
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,680
A lot of these churches like
Bethel, they're kind of falling

684
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,520
apart.
Is it turns out there's all

685
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:11,400
these scams and the people knew
they were scams and the

686
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,200
leadership didn't do anything.
When you have churches that

687
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,480
defer people to government
welfare before providing

688
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,280
assistance themselves, these
these things are the problem.

689
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,480
And I think it's because even
the good Christians at this

690
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,200
point, I've started to lose
faith in their religious

691
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:34,600
institutions through hypocrisy
and malfeasance.

692
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:40,160
And it if those attitudes don't
change, if people can't trust in

693
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:44,960
their in their church and their
religion to fulfill that role,

694
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,920
then the only, the only option
is government, right?

695
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:52,960
And even, I think even good,
well meaning Christians are

696
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,640
going to be like, well, yeah,
but I know, I know my church.

697
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:58,560
So I mean, I kind of would
rather have the government

698
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,560
taking care of this because at
least then there's something I,

699
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,040
I feel like the, the, the
religious institutions of

700
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:11,800
America need to get back to the
fundamentals really and regain

701
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,160
the, that trust.
And I don't know.

702
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:20,080
But I, I, I kind of feel like a
lot of times things, we look at

703
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:21,800
stuff and say this is the
government's fault.

704
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,160
But to a certain degree, I think
this is something we can look at

705
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,320
and say, you know, I think, I
think the churches have been

706
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,800
dropping the ball in America for
too long and it it needs to get

707
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:36,520
turned around.
I, I excuse me, I agree with

708
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:39,840
you.
I will say also that a lot of

709
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:44,560
these problems are a direct
result of ourselves as well.

710
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,160
To go along with that, right?
We, we look at the churches,

711
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,720
they're not doing the job.
That's an issue.

712
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:56,680
I would also say religion's been
on a downward, downward spiral

713
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,960
in America.
You know, certainly the debate

714
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,560
can be had about whether that's
the result of having bad

715
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:07,720
churches or people not attending
just because they're moving past

716
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:10,040
religion.
But I think that's an

717
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,680
interesting thing I'd like to
take a look at for more data.

718
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,640
But you're right, Justin, that
does not help one bit.

719
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,240
Kim, I see your hands up.
Yeah, since Justin came back to

720
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:24,360
churches, I just wanted to add
to what he was saying a little

721
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,680
bit earlier.
I, I think his microphone kind

722
00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:31,080
of cut off, but he was going
into the the role of churches

723
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,280
and the role of the government
during the COVID era.

724
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,520
And while the government, the
policies they made while COVID

725
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,280
was a hot item, was absolutely
an infringement on the free

726
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,960
exercise of churches, you know,
the government saying you have

727
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:47,960
to close the church is
absolutely an encroachment of

728
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,960
their power.
But also it is the churches that

729
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,720
acquiesced to that.
The churches just kind of roll

730
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:57,880
over, rolled over.
I'm not aware of any church that

731
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,000
actually got punished for for
for standing up for their

732
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,760
rights.
And and then Justin was also

733
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,640
saying how churches like to have
the same talking points of the

734
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,200
government.
Well, that's those churches

735
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:13,400
choice to do that.
I don't, I, I think, I think a

736
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,480
lot of this burden is on to
churches and us as individuals

737
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,080
because as we keep saying, our
rights have responsibilities

738
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,040
married to them.
And that's as true for churches

739
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:26,480
as it is for us. 100% great
point, Kim.

740
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,920
All right, anything else on
these two before we move on?

741
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,320
Don't feel like we got to speed
past them if there's something

742
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:37,920
you really want to talk about
there.

743
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,480
OK, so Taylor kind of touched on
four and five.

744
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,640
All men live beyond this life in
the next life.

745
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:54,400
Mankind are judged for their
conduct in this life.

746
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,880
So there's two schools of
thought here on this, right?

747
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:05,000
Taylor hit on one of them for
sure, which was we're so you

748
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,960
know, justice will be done one
way or another in this life or

749
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:10,960
next.
Justice will be done and we can

750
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:16,040
take comfort in that.
However, there's something else

751
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:19,400
to this idea.
And I and look for so often

752
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,520
we've heard people say, well, I
don't care if my president goes

753
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:26,120
to church or not or I don't care
if my president is religious or

754
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,440
not.
I kind of do and I'm going to

755
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:36,360
tell you why, because sometimes
if a guy believes, gosh, I'm

756
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,440
going to be accountable in the
next life and he's up against a

757
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:43,240
hard decision, those principles
are going to kick in.

758
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:48,520
If he's going to live his
religion and if he desires to be

759
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:56,040
to, to, to be OK with his God,
it's, it's going to be necessary

760
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:00,160
for him to do correct things and
make the correct decisions, the

761
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:03,000
moral decisions.
And so I do kind of care a

762
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,040
little bit.
Now I'm, I'm not going to say

763
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:10,120
that if, if a guy doesn't go to
church, that that's an automatic

764
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,080
disqualifier.
I'd want to take a look at the

765
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:16,560
guy, but I do think it can be a
good indication of what they're

766
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,960
doing, keeping in mind there's
always room for hypocrisy,

767
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:21,960
right?
Some guys are going to get up

768
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,320
there and say, Oh, I go every
Sunday and you know, sure enough

769
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,480
he does, but he sleeps through
it.

770
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:32,720
Or, you know, if they attend a
church like, you know, the one

771
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:38,640
that that a certain president
attended in Chicago with the

772
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,280
righteous reverend, you know, I
can't remember what his name was

773
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,680
now, but yeah, there, there's
some things to think about even

774
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,000
if they do attend.
But it can be a good barometer.

775
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,920
Taylor, I see your hand up.
Yeah, the criteria shouldn't be

776
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,200
like where which church he
attends.

777
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,320
It should be.
So like for instance, you know

778
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,280
Joseph Smith, there were members
of the council of 50 when he was

779
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:08,120
trying to establish the Kingdom
of God as a political entity.

780
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:12,480
There was non members and the
reason that people was were were

781
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:19,160
willing to support Joseph Smith
in that office in that role was

782
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:23,760
actually because they were
confident that he wasn't going

783
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,800
to try to force them to join his
religion, but he would die

784
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,680
before allowing somebody else to
trounce on their religious

785
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,520
freedom and liberties.
And so like that's kind of the

786
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:39,560
as a as in the role of a out of
a executive officer, like that's

787
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,840
really what matters.
That's the the key, most

788
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:47,400
important stuff, right, is not
necessarily is he my religion,

789
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:53,120
but is, is he going to go to bat
for all religions and uphold

790
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,320
these principles of freedom and,
and freedom of conscience and

791
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:01,760
religion and all that stuff?
A. 100% I would usually if a oh,

792
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,720
go ahead Justin, sorry.
Oh, sorry, I would say I, I just

793
00:55:05,720 --> 00:55:08,840
wanted to add that even you got
to look for fruit.

794
00:55:09,240 --> 00:55:13,360
You got to really look for fruit
because you know, we, we've got

795
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:16,040
presidents that have histories
of adultery.

796
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,440
That's, that's fruit.
That's, those are things we

797
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,120
should be looking at.
Doesn't matter what church

798
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,200
you're going to.
But like, are you honest?

799
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,120
When Mitt, when Mitt Romney was
running, he was saying one thing

800
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:32,920
to the to the LGBTQ lobby and
something very different to his

801
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:36,880
constituents.
You you've got.

802
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,840
So is he really honest in his
dealings with his fellow man?

803
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:41,840
If he's telling one people one
thing and somebody else

804
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,320
something else?
Those are the things we got to

805
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,960
be looking at more than
necessarily what church.

806
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:51,480
But but there's plenty of that
to look at.

807
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:57,160
There's plenty of that going
around and not just are the what

808
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,040
bad things are they avoiding,
but which, what good things are

809
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:04,480
they involved with?
What positive projects have they

810
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:09,840
been promoting and and trying to
get attention to?

811
00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:15,080
100% and and that fruit thing is
huge, right?

812
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:20,520
Look, I will name he who shall
not be named this one time, but

813
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:26,240
the former Senator Harry Reid
drove me crazy.

814
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,160
Here's a guy who professed to be
a believing Mormon but yet voted

815
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:37,240
time after time to enshrine
abortion as as a an undeniable

816
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:41,800
right.
All sorts of leftist causes that

817
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:46,400
just really seem to fly in the
face of of revealed doctrine and

818
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,080
Mormonism, right?
That's a guy you'd want to judge

819
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,880
by your fruit regardless of
where he goes to church.

820
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:56,200
So to Justin's point, I think
he's he's 100% spot on there.

821
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:04,640
Anybody else?
All right, let's go ahead and

822
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:10,800
move on.
So I get asked a lot when when I

823
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:14,480
talk to other people about this.
But Dave, what about Zion?

824
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,960
Won't that be a Mormon
nationalist community?

825
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:20,360
Well, I, I want to talk about
that a little bit.

826
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:23,720
Actually, I want to let Brigham
Young talk about this.

827
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:28,720
And you can find this from
Journal Discourses to page 316.

828
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,400
And it says they will be drawn
to Zion by the great wisdom

829
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,320
displayed there.
And we'll attribute it to the

830
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:39,120
cunning and craftiness of men.
It will be asked, what do you

831
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,560
want to do, ye strangers from
afar?

832
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,520
Why we want to live our own
religion.

833
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,880
Will you bow the knee before God
with us?

834
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:53,400
Oh yes, we would as soon do it
as not.

835
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:57,960
And at that time every knee
shall bow and every tongue

836
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,240
acknowledge that God who is the
framer and maker of all things,

837
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,000
the governor and counselor of
the universe.

838
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,360
They will have to bow the knee
and confess that he is God and

839
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:12,400
that Jesus Christ who suffered
for the sins of the world is

840
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:18,400
actually it's Redeemer.
That by the shedding of his

841
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,120
blood he has redeemed men,
women, children, beasts, birds,

842
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,000
fish, the earth itself and
everything John saw and heard

843
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:31,000
praising in heaven.
They will ask if I bow the knee

844
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:35,800
and confess that he is the that
he, he is that Savior, the

845
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:39,400
Christ to the glory of God.
Will you let me go home and be a

846
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,400
Presbyterian?
Yes, and not persecute me?

847
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:49,320
Never won't let me go home.
And won't you let me go home and

848
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:51,480
belong to the Greek church?
Yes.

849
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:56,000
Will you allow me to be a friend
Quaker or a shaking Quaker?

850
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:58,840
Oh yes.
Anything you wish to be.

851
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,960
But remember that you must not
persecute your neighbors, but

852
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:06,960
you must mind your own business
and let your neighbors alone,

853
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:10,640
and let them worship the sun,
moon, a white dog, or anything

854
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:14,840
else they please, being mindful
that every knee has got to bow

855
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:18,120
in every tongue.
Confess when you have paid this

856
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:21,920
tribute to the Most High who
created you and preserves you.

857
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:26,360
You may then go and worship what
you please, or do what you

858
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:30,240
please if you do not infringe
upon your neighbors.

859
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:34,800
This is painting a very
different picture of Zion than I

860
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:36,960
think.
Certainly I had in mind when I

861
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:41,240
was a younger man.
I thought that it would be by

862
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:43,760
Mormons, for Mormons and only
for them.

863
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,680
But Brigham paints a different
question.

864
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:51,600
And it's interesting that it
comes from Brigham, who is way

865
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:53,680
harsher than many of us would
ever be.

866
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:56,960
But nonetheless, it it makes
time for that.

867
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:00,480
And then going back to what
Franklin said and those other

868
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:06,800
items, we looked at those, those
qualities of good religion.

869
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:10,480
I do believe that you can find
those in many, many religions.

870
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:16,640
Those baseline things a, a
belief in a creator that there

871
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:22,200
is a moral code on how we treat
each other and that will be

872
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,800
judged according to what we do
here in regards to treating

873
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,640
other people.
I think those principles are

874
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:33,400
universal and and show up in a
lot of different religions.

875
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,280
And I think that's why the
founders were so confident that

876
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:41,480
they could put forward this idea
of of religion playing a a

877
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:45,600
massive role in the American
system of government without

878
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,440
getting specific and naming
certain religions.

879
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:52,960
Does anyone have anything they
would like to add here before we

880
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:58,120
move on?
Just one last point on

881
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:00,360
nationalism.
This concept of Christian

882
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:04,920
nationalism is, I think, that
the ultimate Christian

883
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:07,560
nationalist government that's
ever existed is the United

884
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,880
States government, because
Christ is not a coercive person

885
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:13,840
that's going to force you to
accept him.

886
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:20,560
Absolutely, 100% good point.
I would just also add that even

887
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,680
Islam can behave itself to be
honest.

888
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:27,200
I mean, I've visited my sister
in Malaysia, it's an Islamic

889
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,680
country, but they got a lot of
Buddhists and Hindus, even a few

890
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:32,960
Christians, and they can all get
along.

891
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:37,840
It's it's actually possible?
Yeah, absolutely, Cherise.

892
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:46,080
Yeah, I'm trying to find the
reference, and bear with me, I

893
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,480
have a little bit of a headache,
but the book of Micah in the

894
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:55,760
Bible also talks a lot about
this idea that people who come

895
01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:00,160
to Zion, anyone who's willing to
not fight against their neighbor

896
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,400
will be welcome.
I think it's Micah chapter 4,

897
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:07,360
and that they will worship their
gods and we will worship our

898
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:12,160
gods, and just anyone who can be
nice to each other and not

899
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,880
impose on everybody else's
religious freedoms will be

900
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:17,720
welcome.
And I again, I think that's

901
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:19,640
Micah four.
I was trying to find the exact

902
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:25,080
reference but was unable to, but
I I love I had never heard that

903
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,920
Brigham Young had said that as
well, so that's that's fairly

904
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:29,040
cool.
Thank you for sharing.

905
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,240
You bet.
And, and in Full disclosure, I

906
01:02:32,240 --> 01:02:33,760
had to ask Justin where that
was.

907
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:35,880
Again.
I'd read it years before and I

908
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,800
could never find it.
And fortunately, Justin had the

909
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:42,360
technology so.
I'm an expert in anti Christian

910
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:44,800
nationalism.
Right, right.

911
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:46,840
Well, I kind of put you on the
hook to do that.

912
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:51,680
Sorry about that.
Yeah, no, it, it, it is

913
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:53,680
interesting, right?
And it's far more.

914
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,120
It it it's a little.
Bit bigger tent than what I

915
01:02:56,120 --> 01:03:00,200
think we had initially, or let
me rephrase that, that I had

916
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:04,440
initial initially thought about
as as a younger man and in my

917
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:08,760
walk as a Mormon.
All right, anybody else?

918
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:13,640
OK, let's go ahead and move on
here.

919
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,160
So what about the separation of
church and state, or the wall

920
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:25,880
between government and religion?
I think when we look at this, we

921
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:28,880
have to ask the other question.
We kind of start to dive into

922
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,280
it.
Maybe a better way of

923
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:35,440
understanding this is to ask a
clarifying question, which would

924
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,080
be, with the establishment of
the separation of church and

925
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:42,040
state, who is being protected
from whom?

926
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:50,360
I think the one way we can
answer this is just go to the

927
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:54,360
document itself, right Says
Congress shall make no law

928
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:59,600
respecting an establishment of
religion or prohibiting the free

929
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:05,640
exercise thereof.
There is only one thing that I

930
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:09,760
think Barack Obama has ever said
publicly that I agree with him

931
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:16,280
on, and it was when he was
teaching constitutional law, I

932
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:18,600
believe.
I can't remember what university

933
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:23,120
it was, but there's an old clip
where he says when you look at

934
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:27,840
the Constitution in the Bill of
Rights, you have to understand

935
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,920
that that is a charter of
negative liberties on the

936
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,080
government and he should have
stopped it there.

937
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,400
He didn't.
He went on to screw it all up.

938
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:41,520
But in that in that assessment,
I do believe he's right.

939
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:49,760
Much of our founding documents
are sincerely, honestly worried

940
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:51,920
about what the government can do
to you.

941
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:55,120
And you have to understand where
the founders were coming from.

942
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,640
They were coming from a place
where the government was in your

943
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,880
back pocket, cradle to grave.
And that's something that they

944
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,880
were desperately seeking to try
to remedy.

945
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:09,080
And so we see this again in this
quote, right?

946
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:14,000
Congress is not to make a law
establishing a church or

947
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,800
prohibiting the free exercise of
religion.

948
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,000
That is a negative liberty,
right?

949
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:22,280
That is something in government
can't do.

950
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:25,960
So right there, that quote tells
us that the founders were very

951
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:29,680
concerned about what religion,
what government could do to

952
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:35,400
religion.
Jefferson said this In matters

953
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,200
of religion.
I have considered that it's

954
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,800
free.
Free exercise is placed by the

955
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:44,280
Constitution independent of the
powers of general government,

956
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:48,880
and I have therefore undertaken
on no occasion to prescribe the

957
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:53,320
religious exercises suited to
it, but have left them as the

958
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:57,760
Constitution found them, under
the direction and discipline of

959
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:01,920
the State or church authorities
acknowledged by their several

960
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:05,560
religious societies.
I want to talk here for just a

961
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,480
second.
Jefferson mentioned the state.

962
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:13,600
It's important to realize that
when the founders say anything,

963
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:17,240
like when they say anything not
specifically mentioned here, is

964
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:22,400
a matter for the states.
The States and the people were

965
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,760
synonymous terms that could be
interchanged.

966
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:29,200
In those days.
The states were looked at as the

967
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:33,360
people's voice, and then
Washington was the federal

968
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:39,120
voice, not George Washington,
but Washington, DC And so when

969
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,720
it says that it's at the
direction of the discipline of

970
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:43,840
the state, it's talking about
the people.

971
01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:49,040
And even that had to be hammered
out, in my opinion.

972
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:53,760
It got hammered out through the
Civil War that the government

973
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:59,760
can enforce the protection of
rights to men and and people

974
01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:02,320
everywhere.
And inside the country, they did

975
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:05,720
have that jurisdiction.
And it's ultimately what Joseph

976
01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:09,240
Smith is begging the federal
government to do with what

977
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:12,600
happened in Missouri.
He was seeking redress.

978
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:14,560
He was like, you've got to make
this right.

979
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,080
And up until that, up until the
Civil War, it was never tested

980
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,960
if the federal government had a
place in defending people's

981
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:27,080
rights or if that was simply
left to the states at large.

982
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:36,440
And So what what Jefferson is
saying here is that look, if we

983
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:41,880
this is a matter for the people,
we as a government cannot inter

984
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:46,000
intercede ourselves here.
So again, this wall of

985
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:50,760
separation seems to be far more
concerned about protecting

986
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:58,080
religion from government.
Moving on here, something else

987
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,600
that's interesting.
Another quote from Jefferson.

988
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:03,440
In our village of
Charlottesville, there's a good

989
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:07,000
degree of religion with a small
spice only of fanaticism.

990
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:12,040
We have 4 sects, but without
either church or meeting house.

991
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,240
The courthouse is the common
temple.

992
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:19,720
One Sunday in the month to each
hear Episcopalian and

993
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,960
Presbyterian, Methodist and
Baptist meet together, join in

994
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:28,080
Hemming their maker, listen with
attention and devotion to each

995
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:32,279
other's preachers, and all mix
in society with perfect harmony.

996
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:38,160
It blew my mind when I was like,
wait a second, they were using

997
01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:42,200
the courthouse as a church.
But nonetheless, that's what it

998
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:44,920
was.
So it's not that Jefferson is

999
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:48,000
worried about the proximity of
government and religion

1000
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:51,120
together.
It seems to me the founders were

1001
01:08:51,120 --> 01:08:56,439
much more worried about
protecting religion from

1002
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,399
government.
Taylor, you kind of hit on this

1003
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:01,560
before.
Why were they so concerned about

1004
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:05,560
that?
Well, they had some PTSD from

1005
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:10,319
Anglicanism and all the other,
you know, the, there was people

1006
01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:13,160
coming out of England that were
trying to escape religious

1007
01:09:13,399 --> 01:09:16,680
tyranny.
There was the, the, the well,

1008
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:20,920
the Puritans, the separatists,
they were all seeking religious

1009
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:25,319
freedom and they were coming
from, I mean, the Holy Roman

1010
01:09:25,319 --> 01:09:29,960
Empire was again, a state
sponsored religious deal.

1011
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:36,399
So all of that combined, these
guys were the ultimate freedom

1012
01:09:36,399 --> 01:09:40,080
of religion people.
They that's why they had come

1013
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:44,319
and sacrificed everything left
their homes to, to find that

1014
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:47,120
freedom.
Absolutely.

1015
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:49,600
I think when I think when we
start looking at the divine

1016
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,399
right of kings, we can see where
this goes off the rail quite a

1017
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:58,920
bit.
I want to say this the outset,

1018
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:04,040
there are things that I both
like and dislike about Trump,

1019
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,680
but one of the most frightening
things I ever heard actually

1020
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:14,480
came from a preacher named Mark
Driscoll about about the

1021
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:18,720
government and religion.
And it, it frightened me to my

1022
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:23,160
core when I heard it, he said.
What we've seen now is that

1023
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:25,520
religion has fallen asleep at
the job.

1024
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:29,160
And so now our Christian
morality is going to come

1025
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:34,400
through the government.
For all of us who understand

1026
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:39,600
government's proper role in
these things, that should chill

1027
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:47,920
our blood a little bit.
Because if that was to happen, I

1028
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:51,960
don't think we can necessarily
make the case that they'll be

1029
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:53,880
lining up to side with us,
right?

1030
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:57,360
Or that we would be considered
one of their friends.

1031
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:01,640
But also because we don't want
government telling us what is

1032
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:06,040
legitimate religion or not.
If we did, you could bet your

1033
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:10,880
bottom dollar that Mormonism
does not have the ability to

1034
01:11:10,880 --> 01:11:15,360
flourish in America like it had.
And even that had to be fought

1035
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:19,560
for and was still, blood was
still spilled because of that.

1036
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:26,800
And so we this idea of church
and state, we have to really

1037
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:30,800
look and realize that this
wasn't about protecting

1038
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,520
government from religion.
This was about protecting

1039
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:37,600
religion from government.
That when the two intermarry, it

1040
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:41,960
gives birth to an abomination
that seeks to devour man's

1041
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:45,960
rights and not preserve them.
And that that should be

1042
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:48,880
worrisome.
Does anybody have anything they

1043
01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:59,280
would like to add here?
OK, go ahead and we'll move on.

1044
01:12:03,080 --> 01:12:08,600
All right.
Now we're going to move on to

1045
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:15,120
Principal 5 here, which is the
the role of the creator.

1046
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:19,960
And this was a short section,
but one of the things I wanted

1047
01:12:19,960 --> 01:12:24,760
to address is this idea that
that the founding fathers were

1048
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:28,920
deists, and we need to define
what that is.

1049
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:34,040
First, Deists have a belief in
the existence of a supreme

1050
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:40,160
being, specifically of a creator
who does not intervene in the

1051
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:43,080
universe.
The term is used chiefly of an

1052
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:47,800
intellectual movement of the
17th and 18th centuries that

1053
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:51,680
accepted the existence of a
creator on the basis of reason,

1054
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:56,200
but rejected belief in a
supernatural deity who interacts

1055
01:12:56,600 --> 01:13:00,800
with humankind.
One of the ways I heard had this

1056
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:06,080
explained to me when I was in
college, taking a course on on

1057
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:09,880
the unconstitutional law and
that sort of thing.

1058
01:13:10,440 --> 01:13:14,440
Starting out here was kind of
the clockmaker model.

1059
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:19,880
So the God of the deist will
basically create something, wind

1060
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:23,400
it up, and then walk away from
it and let it do whatever it is

1061
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,760
it's going to do, right?
Much like a clock maker makes a

1062
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,920
clock, he winds it, and then he
walks away.

1063
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:33,440
Then the clock takes over and
does what it does with no more

1064
01:13:33,440 --> 01:13:35,240
interference from the clock
maker.

1065
01:13:36,480 --> 01:13:40,760
And it's a very impersonal God.
It's a God that doesn't

1066
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:45,200
necessarily have an overwhelming
love for his creation or his

1067
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:50,080
children.
It is just a tinkerer who

1068
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:53,360
cosmically gets bored and wants
to do something.

1069
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:57,280
And creations appears out of
that.

1070
01:13:58,200 --> 01:14:04,600
And they ascribe the founding
fathers as being deists.

1071
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:07,160
And I take exception with that
quite a bit.

1072
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:14,440
I think that the writings are so
overwhelming as to to otherwise

1073
01:14:14,440 --> 01:14:18,000
point differently.
Now, I do want to say this that

1074
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:22,920
Franklin in in his earlier life
does seem to want to flirt with

1075
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:27,520
this idea of of deism, but ends
up going a different direction.

1076
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:30,720
And I believe I have a quote
from him that would illuminate

1077
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:33,000
that.
Justin, I see your hand up, bro.

1078
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,920
Yeah, I was just going to just
add to that, that, you know,

1079
01:14:38,920 --> 01:14:42,080
Jefferson's also kind of looked
at as a deist because he

1080
01:14:42,080 --> 01:14:45,800
rejected a lot of the miraculous
biblical events.

1081
01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:49,600
But that still does not really
make him a deist.

1082
01:14:50,240 --> 01:14:56,360
You can still believe that God
has his hand on Providence, but

1083
01:14:56,360 --> 01:15:00,600
maybe isn't, you know,
performing outright amazing, you

1084
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:06,640
know miracles to that degree.
The the the you know the the

1085
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:11,920
motto America and God we trust
is as anti deist as you can get

1086
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:15,440
you you don't trust in the
watch.

1087
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:22,680
You don't trust in what biology
I these things are.

1088
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:28,480
They're the modern academics
have taken some of these ideas

1089
01:15:28,480 --> 01:15:30,400
too far.
What really was a lot of the

1090
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:35,320
founders were disagreed with the
common religious sentiments and

1091
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:38,120
ideas and doctrines.
But that doesn't make them

1092
01:15:38,120 --> 01:15:41,720
deists it it means they were
waiting for the restoration in

1093
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:44,200
my opinion.
Well, yeah.

1094
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:47,320
And I think in that first class,
I showed that quote from

1095
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:51,400
Jefferson where he basically
makes a prophecy that he foresaw

1096
01:15:51,400 --> 01:15:56,440
a time when somebody from from
this this new government, not

1097
01:15:56,440 --> 01:16:00,600
government, but from from
America would step up to restore

1098
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:04,120
Christianity.
And it was just AI believe it

1099
01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:07,000
may have even been the year that
Joseph Smith was born.

1100
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:11,240
But we're going to get to
Jefferson on this matter because

1101
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:14,280
I like you, Justin, take take
exception with this a little

1102
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:17,120
bit.
This is from George Washington.

1103
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:19,880
Again, many said that he was a
deist.

1104
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:23,760
He says no people can be bound
to acknowledge and adore the

1105
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:28,000
invisible hand which conducts
the affairs of men, conducts the

1106
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:31,720
affairs of men more than the
people of the United States.

1107
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:35,720
Every step by which they have
advanced to the character of an

1108
01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:40,920
independent nation seems to have
been distinguished by some token

1109
01:16:40,920 --> 01:16:43,800
of providential agency.
Right.

1110
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:48,400
Washington saying, look, of all
people on the earth, the people

1111
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:51,720
of the United States, we
understand we saw the hand of

1112
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:54,320
God.
Again, seeing the hand of God

1113
01:16:54,320 --> 01:17:00,760
move, conducting the affairs of
men, having having some token of

1114
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:04,680
providential agency.
Again, that seems to fly in the

1115
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:07,480
face of this idea of the
clockmaker just going to wind it

1116
01:17:07,480 --> 01:17:11,400
up and let it go here.
Washington's definitely saying

1117
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:16,320
no people, God is involved.
God was involved in the

1118
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:19,960
revolution.
James Madison.

1119
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:24,320
The real wonder is, is that so
many difficulties should have

1120
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:30,160
been surmounted with a
unanimity, unanimity almost as

1121
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:34,640
impossible for any man of candor
to reflect on this circumstance

1122
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:37,320
without partaking of the
astonishment.

1123
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:42,520
It is the IT is impossible for
the man of pious reflection not

1124
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:47,240
to perceive in it a finger of
the Almighty hand, which had

1125
01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:52,960
been so frequently signaling a
singly extended to our relief in

1126
01:17:52,960 --> 01:17:55,280
the critical stages of the
revolution.

1127
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:59,520
Once again, Madison echoing the
same sentiments as Washington.

1128
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:01,960
God was involved with the
revolution.

1129
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:05,880
We saw it.
His hand was upon this movement.

1130
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:15,320
OK, moving on, Thomas Jefferson,
I tremble for my country when I

1131
01:18:15,320 --> 01:18:21,040
reflect that God is just and His
justice cannot sleep forever.

1132
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:26,280
Back to Justin's point, Thomas
Jefferson, maybe with the

1133
01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:30,320
exception of Ben Franklin, is
labeled as a deist more

1134
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:35,400
frequently than any of, of any
other founding father that we

1135
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:39,400
have.
It's interesting to note here

1136
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:46,520
that Thomas Jefferson's remark
here has to do with man's

1137
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:51,880
freedom.
This, look, I want to give

1138
01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:55,920
plenty of space here.
We, we, we have various opinions

1139
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:59,640
on the priesthood ban.
And I don't want to get into to

1140
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:03,040
a, a discussion on that, but I,
I do.

1141
01:19:03,840 --> 01:19:06,760
I would at least hope that all
of us could recognize that there

1142
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:10,320
was some problems with
antebellum slavery, right?

1143
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:14,680
And it wasn't necessarily the
type of indentured servitude

1144
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:16,120
that was talked about in the
Bible.

1145
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:21,480
And so Jefferson here is saying,
gosh, I'm, I'm worried for my

1146
01:19:21,480 --> 01:19:24,720
country here if we don't walk up
to the things we say we're about

1147
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:28,480
that all men deserve to, to be
free and to have liberty.

1148
01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:34,360
And he gets nervous when he
realizes that God's justice

1149
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:39,080
can't sleep forever.
Again, that seems to fly in the

1150
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:45,760
face of this idea of a very
impersonal God, a God who is not

1151
01:19:45,760 --> 01:19:53,000
involved in the affairs of man.
And so once again, this idea

1152
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:56,400
that the Founding Fathers were
DS just doesn't hold water.

1153
01:19:57,120 --> 01:20:01,160
And then on to Ben Franklin.
And again, I do want to give.

1154
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:05,520
I, I, I do want to say that you
can find some quotes from his

1155
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:10,600
earlier life where he seems to
be flirting with deism a little

1156
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:12,960
bit.
But later in his life,

1157
01:20:13,240 --> 01:20:16,840
specifically around the time of
the Constitution, Constitutional

1158
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:21,600
Convention, if you look at many
of his writings, he seems to be

1159
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:25,120
firmly out of the camp of deism.
And this is just one example.

1160
01:20:26,680 --> 01:20:30,240
And this takes this, this quote
is from the the Constitutional

1161
01:20:30,240 --> 01:20:32,880
Convention.
And it says in this situation of

1162
01:20:32,880 --> 01:20:36,440
this assembly, groping as it
were in the dark to find

1163
01:20:36,440 --> 01:20:40,520
political truth and scarce able
to distinguish it when presented

1164
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:43,840
to us.
How has it happened, Sir, that

1165
01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:48,600
we have not hitherto thought of
humbly applying to the Father of

1166
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:51,280
Lights to illuminate our
understanding?

1167
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:55,440
In the beginning of the contest
with Great Britain, when we were

1168
01:20:55,440 --> 01:21:00,800
sensible of danger, we had daily
prayer in this room for the

1169
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:05,120
Divine protection.
Our prayer, Sir, were heard, and

1170
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:09,080
they were graciously answered.
All of us were engaged in the

1171
01:21:09,080 --> 01:21:13,320
struggle, must have observed
frequent instances of a

1172
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:15,920
superintending Providence in our
favor.

1173
01:21:16,440 --> 01:21:19,880
To that kind of Providence, we
owe this happy opportunity of

1174
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:23,640
consulting in peace on the means
of establishing our future

1175
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:26,600
national Felicity.
And we have now.

1176
01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:31,120
And have we now forgotten that
powerful friend, or do we

1177
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:34,600
imagine that we no longer need
his assistance?

1178
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:41,320
OK.
Franklin eloquently points out

1179
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:46,040
that hey, during the revolution
we met in this room so often and

1180
01:21:46,040 --> 01:21:52,080
we prayed for God's protection.
We prayed for God's favor in

1181
01:21:52,080 --> 01:21:55,720
this, We prayed to be on his
side and our prayers were

1182
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:58,400
answered.
And now all of a sudden you guys

1183
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:01,080
are like, don't think you need
them anymore.

1184
01:22:02,160 --> 01:22:05,520
And what's interesting, and, and
this is what I would say in

1185
01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:11,720
regards to modern academia is
that you have to go read primary

1186
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:14,520
sources.
Do not, don't take my word for

1187
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:16,080
it.
Don't take anybody else's word

1188
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:18,840
for it.
Go look at the original sources

1189
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:20,560
yourself because that's going to
tell the tale.

1190
01:22:21,680 --> 01:22:28,520
There is a quote from Franklin
about this time where he said

1191
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:32,600
some of the men save it be 5 or
6 in the constitutional

1192
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:35,480
Convention.
Felt like prayer wasn't needed.

1193
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:40,320
Modern scholars have picked that
up, that one little sentence and

1194
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:43,120
said, oh, see, Franklin is a
deist.

1195
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:45,440
At best, he's a deist, if not an
atheist.

1196
01:22:46,160 --> 01:22:49,040
Well, when you read the full
contact, when you read the full

1197
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:54,320
context of that, he is, he is
chastising that group of men

1198
01:22:54,320 --> 01:22:58,920
like he is here for not being
quicker to get on their knees

1199
01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:04,000
and ask for heaven's help.
And so this idea of the founding

1200
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:08,280
fathers being deists, I just
don't believe the history

1201
01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:11,840
supports that.
I think if we look, I think the

1202
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:15,640
best you can say is that the
vast, vast majority of the

1203
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:20,160
founding fathers were devout men
who believed in a personal God

1204
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:25,360
who was intimately involved with
mankind both on the micro and

1205
01:23:25,360 --> 01:23:28,720
the macro.
And that is bore out time and

1206
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:34,480
again by by their own writings.
Certainly they go through phases

1207
01:23:34,480 --> 01:23:37,520
like any person does throughout
their life.

1208
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:42,400
But as Justin pointed out, many
of the founding fathers

1209
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:47,760
critiques of religion,
specifically Christianity, has

1210
01:23:47,760 --> 01:23:51,640
to do with an idea that they
have of we have lost some things

1211
01:23:51,640 --> 01:23:55,240
out of this religion that have
to come back somehow.

1212
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:59,040
And I think that's we need to
keep that in the forefront of

1213
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:03,000
our minds here as we do our own
reading and perform our own

1214
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:06,640
scholarship in these matters.
Does anyone have anything they'd

1215
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:07,880
like to add to this section
here?

1216
01:24:14,980 --> 01:24:17,900
OK, we'll go ahead and we'll
move on.

1217
01:24:19,500 --> 01:24:28,000
We're almost through what I
thought I had more, maybe not.

1218
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:33,920
OK, that was it.
All right, so that's that takes

1219
01:24:33,920 --> 01:24:40,400
us through principle #5 Next
week we will do 6-7 and eight.

1220
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:44,720
It's only about 19 pages worth
of reading, so these are really

1221
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:49,640
short chapters coming up, but
does anybody have anything they

1222
01:24:49,640 --> 01:25:02,360
want to say in conclusion?
OK, good enough.

1223
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:05,720
I guess we can go ahead and we
can we can wrap it up for the

1224
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:08,880
night.
Corey, would you mind giving us

1225
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:18,220
a closing prayer?
Yeah, I'm here.

1226
01:25:19,740 --> 01:25:21,260
All right, awesome.
You bet.

1227
01:25:21,300 --> 01:25:28,920
All right, our dear Father in
heaven, we're grateful under the

1228
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:33,360
Today just to have these kind of
conversations where we, you

1229
01:25:33,360 --> 01:25:36,360
know, take a look at what's
going on in history and try to

1230
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:41,240
apply them to ourselves and just
wisely choose, you know, the

1231
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:44,640
kind of government that we would
prefer.

1232
01:25:44,640 --> 01:25:51,000
And also learning from these
folks who have spent so much

1233
01:25:51,000 --> 01:25:55,280
time and studying history and
trying to come up with the

1234
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:58,520
answers to bring about the most
freedom for all of us.

1235
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:01,680
Help our understanding to grow
on this topic.

1236
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:05,520
And ask Thy blessings on each of
us here with our families and

1237
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:11,560
our needs, wants and desires
that we might feel by peace in

1238
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:19,040
our lives more as we study these
topics and strive to choose more

1239
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:22,720
wisely with our political
ideologies so that we can kind

1240
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:26,640
of develop thy character and how
we treat others.

1241
01:26:27,480 --> 01:26:32,040
As religion is very much
attached to our political

1242
01:26:32,040 --> 01:26:35,520
ideologies.
So we really want to understand

1243
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:40,880
them and be righteous and how we
apply our politics.

1244
01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:45,320
Just ask for God blessing to
continue with all of us until

1245
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:48,280
you know, we get together again
next week and that all of our

1246
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:51,560
needs will be not until then.
In the name of Jesus Christ,

1247
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:53,720
Amen.
Amen.

1248
01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:54,680
Thanks everybody.