Episode #226: For Love Of Their Children- Adam, Eve, & The Fall In Context W/Taylor Smith

0:11 Taylor, we're back. Hey good to see you again. What's going on dude? Oh just living the dream. I've been enjoying my 8th baby who arrived a month ago tomorrow. Nice, nice sleepless nights. Relatively, yeah, it's a it's just always a a learning curve to adapt a new one. And when they're that little, there's not much I can do. So it's mostly on the mom to. No, that was the one thing that I had kind of forgot about when when we had Asher was like, I really am kind of useless here for a little while, right? I mean, like, I can, I can bring diapers, I can hold the baby, I can give her a break.

0:56 But realistically, I'm kind of worthless for a hot minute. And very no, yeah. And, and every kid you have is a little bit different, right? It's a little, it's a little bit different. It's not like you can certainly you get more relaxed with the the whole process, but at the end it's always a little bit different when they're born. Yep. So, well, good. I'm glad he's healthy. How's how's everything else going for you? Going good. I've been on paternity leave so my company provides a good long bit of that which is huge blessing. None of my other companies I've ever worked for have have been so generous, so I can't complain about.

1:39 That and you can afford that kind of time. It makes it nice not only for for the baby, but for mom as well. Well, I work for a tech company and, and they're kind of, they're LA based. And so during COVID it was a big pain because you know, they're just, they're awoke. But then they came out about 3 years ago and was like, hey, we can't be treating the genders differently. And so instead of giving women four months of maternity leave and men a month of paternity leave, they're like, we got to give everybody the same. So now both birthing parents and non birthing parents. Emphasis on the air quotes. If you can't, if you're just listening. I mean, it's, it's so just nonsense. Nevertheless, it's the one time that it has aired in my favor. I guess I can't complain too much about. Sometimes, sometimes you just got to be like a pirate and just go ahead and raid that ship and take all the goods, right? That's all you're doing.

2:39 Look, there's a few things and and again, I know I got listeners in Europe and I love you guys, but but there's a few things I think Europe got right. Everything else. I kind of like Ron Swanson from Parks and Recs. I tend to believe history started in 1776. Everything before that was kind of a mistake and but like I want to try out the four day work week. To me that looks awesome, right? I wouldn't mind giving that a go. I think that has has some benefits that we have yet to explore. But every once in a while you'll find a good system even in the place where you don't expect it and you just got to take advantage of it. Well, you don't have to push a hand cart to be a pioneer, Dave, So let's pioneer the four day work week and. Check, check.

3:25 Yeah, Nope. Well, dude. So here we are. We're going to talk about Adam and Eve. Yes, Sir. All right, So what what about exactly Adam and Eve? Like are are we covering the whole story? Like what's? What's your thoughts? Yeah, so it started off. I was at a youth fireside and the the leader the that was leading the conversation was we were going through a Book of Mormon study, like class study session and we were reading some stuff. I guess that's as good a place as they need to start. It's Jacob chapter 4, verse three. I'll just pull that up real quick and let's see.

4:09 We read now in this thing we do rejoice, and we labor diligently to engrave in these words upon plates, hoping that our beloved brethren and our children will receive them with thankful hearts and look upon them that they may learn with joy and not with sorrow, neither with contempt concerning their first parents. And so, you know, this is Jacob speaking and, you know, I've read that dozens of times in my life. And, and, and in my mind, I was like, oh, so they're keeping a record of their history so that they so that the descendants of Lehigh would, you know, not look at Lehigh and Soraya. They're the first parents of the of the Nephite and Lamanite civilization with contempt.

4:54 And obviously because, you know, the Lamanites, they had a lot of false traditions and they had a lot of contempt for their brother Nephi. And we learn about that in the when Ammon and his brethren go and visit the Lamanites on their ministry. And they're like, they were really had a lot of contempt for they called him like a, you know, we were wronged. Our fathers were robbed by your father's. And, you know, just that sort of a narrative and, and it's interesting to kind of see that because that's ultimately the same story that Luciferians want to claim is that Lucifer was wronged and that he was actually the good guy and Jesus was the usurper and all of these things, you know, kind of similar parallels to some of that theology. And it was just real interesting, though. One of the gals, in fact, you recently had her. I, I'm, I, I didn't talk with her, but I don't, I guarantee, I really don't think she would mind. But so Michaela Tolman, Zach's fiance, who was just on the podcast a couple weeks ago, she was there and she pointed out that most often, especially when Christians talk about the first parents, they are specifically referring to Adam and Eve. And you know, I've been thinking a lot about Adam and Eve. In fact, I have a kind of a music project. Maybe we can tease a little bit

6:25 of that at the end here, but so it's been on my mind and and just seeing that connection because part the whole point of Adam and Eve is to find joy and rejoicing in the sorrow. And and yet when we look at these types of stories with contempt, which is what the Christians do and what's what the, you know, the anti Mormons and, and it, you know, atheists, anti Mormons, everybody hates Adam and Eve, right? Yeah, we're the only ones that have a love affair with them, right? Everybody else, they are the source of our problems. They're the reason hay doesn't bail itself and cheeseburgers don't grow on trees, right?

7:05 Is because of everything that Adam and Eve did, specifically Eve, right? She gets the biggest brunt of it. But yeah, it's like they blame if, if man, if it hadn't been for them biting the apple. I mean, I've heard people on my mission and, and throughout conversations throughout my life, you know, just just really hating on them, right. And and so that kind of inspired a music project that I'm working on with my buddy Justin. He's my brother-in-law and and a couple other people that are kind of we we've invited to help contribute to that. Basically celebrating and restoring the proper restoration. This type of perspective to, you know, giving our heaven, you know, our parents, Adam and Eve, they're just dues as far as the respect that we that we owe to them for their sacrifice. You know, so often we look in the Book of Mormon at the sacrifices of Jesus, which granted he deserves every little bit that we can give of of appreciation for his sacrifice for us.

8:09 But the condescension of God. In fact, there's other scriptures in the Book of Mormon that talk about notice thou not the condescension of God and you know, father and mother condescending. We're kind of going going a little out of the order. I had some thoughts put together and organize. I'm OK with just winging it, but maybe it would make sense to maybe back up for just a second and and address a couple of things. So that was the genesis, the kind of the origin story of, of why I asked if we could maybe talk, have this conversation on today's podcast episode. Just because there's so much misunderstanding, there's so much anger and and contempt that people even, you know, fundamentalist, not so much, but even members, some members of the restoration that the non Brighamite branches, which are kind of a little bit more Protestant leaning, you could say.

9:06 And so just to kind of help provide some extra understanding of why I personally feel that that we owe them a major and eternal debt of gratitude. So what I had let's let's start off by talking about sectarian Christianity has a theology that they refer to as original sin. Now original sin is is is basically this concept that we are all inheritors of sin because of Adam's sin. So Adam was the first Sinner.

9:48 We are sinners and, and the reason that we're all, you know, in this terrible world, you know, which is the perspective of many is, is because of Adam. And so the original sin theology says that that this is where things like infant baptism come from, You know, 'cause like for me, I've been holding my little newborn and he is just an Angel, right? He's perfect. There is no sin. There's not a speck of sin in his soul. Nevertheless, Christians would claim that if I don't get him baptized, the, you know, he and like, if he was to, you know, tragically die prematurely or something, that that he would be rotting in hell, which is just beyond conscionable for me.

10:48 And so that's but that's basically the fruits of original sin. Is this idea that we're all fallen. Everybody is comes out of the womb sinful. And yeah. So anything else you want to add to that? I mean, I'm sure you've had conversations with. Christian about the thought, the thought about it, especially about, you know, babies, children, young children going to hell because of something that happened, however X many thousands of years ago, right, is repugnant to me, right.

11:28 I kind of feel sometimes when when I think about that, that verse from I think that Tim is Oh my father by Eliza Snow where she said reason screams no, I have to have a mother there right. Much the same way. I think if people are honest with themselves, your very soul screams out no at that concept. It is I find it hard to believe that God would be pleased with people thinking that about him because it does not fit with the attributes of a just and loving God. And so as we look at at this particular doctrine, doctrine which is found in the creeds, it's got to be, it's repugnant. It's repugnant on so many levels. It's repugnant to the human soul. And I believe it to be repugnant to God. I you know, I'll never pretend to speak for the Almighty, but what I do know of him is that he can't be pleased with that action.

12:31 Well, the other thing is it's it, it would be a partial God. And you know, you, you don't, we don't have to speak for God. He says it over and over. It's almost like he takes offense. He takes umbrage at the audacity of anybody to accuse him of showing partiality. And yet this original sin doctrine, false doctrine, we'll just call it what it is, is is an accusation that God is shows partiality to some of his children. He is a respecter of persons. And he's a respecter of persons. When, when you get down to it, he we, we are charging him with the thing that he has said many times in the scripture.

13:13 He is not. Yeah, exactly. So I'd, I'd completely agree with that 100%. And you know, and to contrast that, I, I just read this Jacob chapter 4, verse 3, but just the last couple of lines that that we can receive these records. Like so they're talking about the, the brass plates and just the golden plates, the, the records that they're keeping as well. Why? So that their children, their descendants can look back at the history with joy and not with sorrow or contempt. And you know, it's interesting. Ammon also when he was ministering to King Lemoni, the first thing that he brings up is he expounds the scriptures to a beginning at Adam. Yeah.

14:02 This is a really important story and it always has been. And so it's, it's really important to First off, have a correct understanding ourselves, but also be able to explain it to our children in a, in an understandable way. And you know, there's, there's a lot in second Nephi chapter 2. For the sake of time, I don't know if we'll, we'll dive deep into that, but let's just talk for a second about why it's such an important distinction between original sin theology versus the kind of the restoration theology. And, and I'll just talk about some of the things that I that first come to my mind when I'm considering that is if we are guilty because of Adam's transgression, then we are victims of somebody else's actions, their agency, right?

15:04 Right, right. And, and once again, if that's the case, God would once again seem like the bully, right? Here's somebody who's already been victimized and now we're going to punish them because of their transgressors sin, right? They're already, they're already reaping the benefits of that and then to do it again. We're already hurting. Yeah, yeah, you're already hurting, right? It it just again not a a characteristic of a just and loving God. Right. So it brings this, this victim mentality. Another thing that it brings is again, you know, blaming other people, you know, I guess that contempt, right?

15:52 But we're always as humans, we're always making excuses for ourselves, right? And and justifying our own poop because of somebody else's, you know, blaming, trying to blame somebody else. So, and again, blame is the is the enemy of responsibility. So if we want to take responsibility for our actions, our decisions, the things that we do, we cannot be blaming somebody else for our failures and our shortcomings and our faults. 100% You ever read a book by Jocko Willnut called Extreme Ownership?

16:32 Oh yeah, I love that book. And you know, there's a lot of good things in there. And one of the things he talks about is that as long as you're blaming somebody else, you're not owning it. And if you don't own it, you can't fix it, right? And I'm paraphrasing in my own words here. And so if being a victim is not some place we want to stay, right, obviously, you know, we could be a victim of crime, of fraud, of whatever the case is, you shouldn't stay there for long, right? Don't get me wrong, recuperate, get your feet back under you. But then you want to take possession of that and get back out there and, and put that under foot so you can move forward. Because this, if you keep holding on to that victim mentality, it's a damnable principle. You do not get to move on from that point until you take until you own it.

17:23 And likewise, if we are victims of Adam's wrongdoing and we're perpetual victims of that, there's no hope of, of, of progression. You're done. You're going to stay right there until you own your own stuff and and try to fix it. Right. Yeah. And I mean you, you think of of the the most innocent victims, which would be children and victims of abuse as children. And they are not responsible for the abuse that they suffer. But if they ever want to be able to grow and move beyond that as when they reach adulthood and you know that sort of thing, it's not that they are blaming themselves, but you have to, like you said, you have to not take responsibility because that's the abuser is responsible with the abuse. But we but but you have to take responsibility to OK, that happened to me when I was a little kid. I'm not responsible for that.

18:32 I am responsible for how I live the rest of my life though. And so it's not taking, it's not taking responsibility for things that you are innocent of, but it's responsibility in the sense of taking responsibility for your response to it. Exactly, 100%. And it's too easy to blame others, you know Why am I behaving this way? Well, because someone did this to me. Silly. Yeah, 100% silly. So, and we've kind of alluded to it, but I'll just recite it real quick. So the second article of faith, which is number 2 in the list, Joseph Smith was asked to kind of boil down to just the essential like the essence of Mormon theology and doctrine. And he came up with these thirteen articles of faith that got published in the Wentworth letter. And the number 2 bullet to that was we believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression. Sorry, I had a head notifications dinging. Oh, you're good.

19:37 But so, yeah, we believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgression. It's, it's as basic as article of faith #2 Right. And again, that's, that's a, that's a scary proposition for anybody. That's that that wants to be a victim, right. Taking responsibility is not an easy path. It's not a pleasant, you know, just daisies and roses all day type of a, of a but go ahead. Sorry. Oh, but, but it's but it's the only path if we want to actually move beyond and progress.

20:21 You know, the, the other thing about that, that concept, it is a simple concept, but I don't think we can grasp sometimes how revolutionary of an idea that was when Joseph put it forward, right? Because everybody, whether you were Catholic, whether you were Protestant, heck, if you were Muslim, right, Jewish, these are the common, these are the people that we can all agree kind of gave it put the screws to us right. And Joseph comes out and with a radical idea flips that whole idea on its head. I don't think we can fully appreciate how lonely of a position that must have been to take in those early days, because it was going to set people apart drastically in terms it was going to set the Mormons apart drastically from from the rest of Christendom and, and how they viewed, you know, cosmology and theosis and all those other things.

21:24 Right. Yeah. I mean, it comes like you were saying, it's kind of every tradition, every Judeo-christian tradition has just really missed the mark, buried the lead, what whatever euphemism you want to use on our on our first parents. And it is a it is a tragedy. And except the Nephites and the Lamanites, well, the Nephites who kept the record. And that's significant because they they perhaps had the one and only uncorrupted version of the Old Testament. If you think about it, they brought the brass plates with them.

22:04 And in it, it basically says that their version of the Scriptures is very different from the version that we have today. And this is just yet another example of that. Right, absolutely. You know, and, and if you're going to get to this, shut me down because I don't want to get ahead. But the other place that I feel like was revolutionary is the the the perception of Eve from the Mormon standpoint. And again, if I'm moving too fast, let me know and we can stop. But when we look at how Joseph, well, let me phrase this, when we look at the revelations that Joseph gets regarding God's daughters, it's going to again, drastically change how Christendom looks at women.

22:56 Because ultimately we'd say it's Adam's sin, but everybody understood it's the woman's fault first, right? And This is why you get so much misogyny in early Christendom, I believe, because she is is the mother of our sorrows according to some of their theology, right? And Joseph comes along and he says, yeah, that's not the case, right? Like whether you want to believe in Eve's divine station or not, you better thank God for her because she was the one who reasoned it out, right?

23:40 Look, we don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden, but I imagine it was for a space of time where she had time to contemplate the the serpent's offer, so to speak, right? Right. And she had the ability to either refuse or reject that, but nonetheless, she had to reason it out, right? Why did God ask us to have children, but yet we're not having children in here? And why did you know, why is that happening? And can these two things be the, you know, be kept at the same time? And then if you extend that out, the, the revelation that Joseph gains is going to forever change how men in Mormonism certainly deal with the divine feminine and even the divine feminine within our wives and our daughters. Because now as men, we can't get to where we ultimately want to go without our wives, right?

24:42 And so Joseph, this, this stuff that Joseph reveals, I think sometimes gets passed over because we're used to it a little bit and we don't think much of it. But I tell all this to kind of drive home the fact that these are radical teachings and radical departures from, and I'm going to use air quotes here, traditional Christianity. And it it turns it on its head and it puts it right. And I think that cannot be overstated enough. A. 100% it's a it. It's a sectarian sectarianism. I hate to call it traditional Christianity because you don't really see these until like the second or third century right of early of the early days. And then it becomes kind of codified or, you know, made official in the creeds that come over the next several 100 years. So, but but yeah, it, it is, it's, it's pervasive. It's throughout basically all Christian Judeo-christian traditions and except the Nephites, which is to me very, very significant.

25:56 Now the other problem is, and you may have noticed this in some of your dealings with with kind of, you know, I hate to single out anyone to Christian domination, but but you know, like people who sectarians, I guess, for lack of a better word. We'll just call it what it is. You're fine. But it's, you know, evangelicals especially like the Baptist's and, and this sort of it becomes a superiority complex, right? Have you been saved as if it's a gotcha, right. And, and, you know, as a missionary, I people would ask me, have you been saved?

26:38 And, and I would sometimes just kind of indulge a little bit and be like, yeah, I have been saved. That's not what they mean though, right? They, they, they, there's so much baggage that they implicitly include with that type of a question. One of which is do you, do you, have you stopped repenting? I, I've, I've actually had conversations where people kind of was like, you cannot do any work. If you start doing any work whatsoever, then then you aren't saved 'cause you're saved by grace. And it's, it's just silly, but, but nevertheless that I have heard that argument and, and basically other people, I, I, I forget this has been going back 20 years when I was a missionary in Detroit. But some, some people actually, we, we were able to get deep enough into this topic of discussion that they were like, well, we don't count repentance as a work. And they were actually able to acknowledge that that because, because I kind of had them, right. I'm like, hey, if you don't believe in repentance, how do you reconcile that with all these scriptures that talk about you got to repent and, and yeah, and I'm like, is repentance not a work?

28:09 And they're like, no. So, but anyway, and I don't, I'm not trying to like beat up on, on any buddy tradition or, or belief system, but to me it is, it's not logical, it's not scriptural, it's not rational to, to cling to traditions of those types of things when the scriptures just basically plain as day, say the opposite, that we are to continue to have faith. We are to continue to repent and, and, and it's not like that earns us forgiveness, but it's it's real hard to make an argument that that's not a, a work, you know, and, and to pretend that you can't do work otherwise you're not saved by grace.

29:00 Sure, sure. And it's, it's interesting, right, because it is selective in its application, because in the same New Testament that that the idea of saved by Grace is. And look, before I go on, you, you mentioned not wanting to beat up on, on our evangelical brothers and sisters. And I can appreciate that. But for this conversation, we have to compare and contrast, right? And, and that's what we're doing here. It's not a spirit of accusation. It's we're just comparing and contrasting. But what I was going to say is there's inconsistency even there because the same old, the same New Testament that they used to get saved by grace is also the very same New Testament where Paul says faith without works is dead. And so it obviously.

29:49 James. That's I think that's a James. Thank you. Thank you. I, I misspoke, but regardless, it's still right there, right? And and so there's there's some selective application that I think goes on a little bit with that. And you know, going back, so to talk about the superiority complex in these pitfalls of pride, it, it just basically it, it creates A dichotomy where you're either saved or you're not saved. And because I actually do believe that to be saved in the sense that, you know, Jesus, I've accepted Jesus as my savior like that.

30:30 That is something that you can do and, and it doesn't, it, it's not, it's not going to require extra work or, you know, it's, it's, it's an acknowledgement that it's not by my power, by, you know, I'm not earning any of this. I don't deserve salvation. Nevertheless, I believe in a Jesus who can't save me and, and who and who will save me. And so there's that. But if you think that I haven't been saved, it that's kind of leads to predestination, kind of the Calvinistic types of, of, you know, oh, I can't sin, I can't fall because I've been saved.

31:13 And it, it creates a false sense of, of, you know, I hate superiority, pride. I it's, it's hard to necessarily like, put us an exact term to it, but you know what I mean? Absolutely. You feel like you're above, you're feel like you're above and you're incapable of of falling. Yeah, yeah. And and the fruits to that can't be good, right? It's a for one thing, it's very damning. You cannot progress if you think you have already arrived. You know, it's also completely false, like you can't that's like you're staring at a mirror and you know you're a narcissist, like you can't see any of your flaws.

32:02 You only think you're beautiful. It's it's a very damning in the sense that it limits your ability to progress and but then it gets really toxic and unhealthy when you start comparing yourself with others. Yes. Which again, is a pride, is a, is an inherently comparative and, you know, type of an exercise and you know, you think you're better than somebody else. That's a dangerous place to be. Sure it is. Yep. Once you sit a station above somebody else in such a manner as that, right? Just having access to God or the ability to be forgiven is, is, is a rough place to be. And it's a place that often ends with those having the perceived, oh, the, the perceived seat, if you will, there, or, or the perceived station being able to really do some damage to those who have not, right, who are honest and like I, I don't know if I am or not, They can do damage there. Totally cool.

33:16 So Next up is the the let's just talk about. So I think that it's safe to say that LDS, Mormons, just everybody, everybody that's in the Brighamite branch, it has acknowledged that Eve is not the villainous that that we we should love our mother. You know, Eve, they don't accept her as being Heavenly mother, but you know, they at least have respect for her and and acknowledge her place is not one that we should, you know, hate or, or be angry with, but just to be grateful for her sacrifice.

34:07 Because you forget she actually made a lot of sacrifices by taking the fruit. She had to leave the garden. Like that's, that would suck if I mean, we can't even comprehend. But if if you're in paradise and now you're kicked out, that's a big deal. And why did she do it? Well, second Nephi chapter 2. In fact, maybe it's worth pulling up just a couple of verses here. So second Nephi chapter 2 is Lehi Father Lehi instructing his sons and and he just gives some really insightful like lines of reasoning. Really. The days of the children of men, I'm starting in verse 21. The days of the children of men were prolonged according to the will of God that they might repent while in the flesh. Wherefore their state became a state of probation and their time was lengthened according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For He gave commandment that all men must repent. For He showed unto all men that they were lost because of the transgression of their parents.

35:05 And now behold, if Adam had not transgressed, he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created. And they must have remained forever and had no end. And they would have had no children. Wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy. For they knew no misery, doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of Him who knoweth all things. Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fullness of time that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because they are redeemed from the fall, they have become free forever, knowing good from evil, to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at that great and last day according to the commandments which God has given.

35:55 Wherefore men are free according to flood man. It's hard to stop. It's Yeah, I'll, I'll just read one last one. Wherefore men are free according to the flesh, and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life through the great mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death according to the captivity and power of the devil. For he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. And then he's like encourages the his children, his brethren and us, the readers coming along century miscellanea a couple millennia later. And he's like pleading with us to choose Christ to choose liberty and not misery and captivity. And and this is a powerful treatise that on on agency and the importance of free will.

36:51 We, we, we, rightly so. We put a lot of emphasis and attention on the atonement within the Restoration, as we should, because without the Atonement the plan would not work. Right. Nevertheless, without the fall, the atonement would have been worthless because there would be nobody to save. Right. So. So really, as important as the atonement is, the fall is at least equally so. Important 100% you're Look, I know for a fact you're a great piano player.

37:35 When you were learning to play piano, what did you learn the most from? The notes you got right or the notes you got wrong? I learned the most from my teacher. But yeah, you you have to make it's, it is never realistic to think I'd never, I'm never going to make a mistake and I'm going to learn a piece. That's just not how it works. And so, yeah, you have to learn by trial and error. And as the as the garden story teaches, you know, if you had never known what sorrow was, how could you? How could you? Even the word joy would be meaningless.

38:16 Yes, yes. And not only would the words be meaningless to you, but you would not have the opportunity to choose right from wrong. Yes. And we learn our most valuable lessons from two places. Trial or we chose wrong, right? I've told the story a couple different times, but I think it's worth bearing out And and I tell the story to reflect on how ingenious God's plan was here for us, right, knowing who we are, knowing that we would need to make mistakes, right? We should never wanting we go out and make mistakes, but we need to make mistakes playing, playing some semi pro ball up in a league up in the the Pacific Northwest. And we just had a coach who just was never happy. Darn good coach, but never happy. And I remember we were, we were just a really good team that year.

39:19 We'd feel that good guys, we had a lot of talent and we were, we kept squeaking out wins, right, because we knew we could turn it on and we could always come back, right. So it was nothing for us to be down 1417, sometimes 21 points at halftime, come back and win by three points or a touchdown or whatever. We finally got caught, right? We did that. We let the other team hang around. We lost the game. And I remember I was expecting the worst rear chewing ever when that coach came in. I really was. But to my surprise, because he chew on us when we were beating him 40 to nothing, right? I mean, like he was just that kind of guy. But he came in and he he was quiet and he was fairly reserved.

40:09 He's like, I know this stings. Let's come back, you know, Monday evening and let's start talking about what we can do different. And we came back that that Monday evening and we're going to review the game film and and look, reviewing game film when you lose sucks because your stuff is on display for everybody, right? Like everybody's going to see it. And it kind of has to be that way because you can't really tell like 52 guys or whatever. Or in our case it was 30. Some guys the same thing over and over again privately. You this has to be done in public, right? So every misstep you had, it's going to show and you're going to be called out. So that happens.

40:50 But before that happens, he said, I'm really glad we lost this game. And I was like, well, no, you know, go # sand, right? I was like, I hate losing, but he was right. We absolutely needed that because we had just enough talent to skate by, but we weren't putting in enough work right. And because we were humbled, we paid extra close attention to the game. Phil Right. And we went on, didn't didn't lose another game the rest of the year. My point is is that life is much that way. Your while certainly you should never want to make a mistake, you should never not act because you're afraid of making a mistake.

41:36 It's through those mistakes that we are going to learn. And our Father understood and recognized that and provided a way whereby we can make our mistakes, take our lumps, get back up, use the atonement, dust ourselves off and continue forward. And again, that was never brought forward until until the restoration was was put into place. You talked about their sacrifice. And again, if I'm moving forward, you need to you need to stop me here, Taylor. But if, if you're like the bulk of fundamentalists who believe in the Adam God doctrine, there's a special sacrifice that happens there, right? And, and, and for anyone who doesn't know, the Adam God doctrine, without getting in the weeds here too much, postulates that Adam is both the father of our spirits as well as the father of our bodies, and that he was already an exalted man with Eve when he came to this earth. And there is because of the endowment, because of other scriptures that we have, we know that there is a moment at which Eve has a recollection, right, where she understands, Oh, I lived someplace else before I lived here, right? And I imagine that kept coming back more and more. And so as they start to endure mortality again, as they start feeling the pain of mortality again, they can now compare and contrast of where they've been

43:11 versus where they are now. And why did they do it, Taylor? They did it because they loved their children. They were willing to go through it all again. The scent pains, the sorrows, the aches and pains of of just what it takes to be alive. I had a good friend who who had a near death experience once and most look, I'm going to be honest with you. Most near death experiences I do raise a little bit of an eyebrow at sometimes. This one hit different right as he talked. It definitely had the spirit with him. And he talked about his experience and he talked about coming back into his body, and he said my body hurts all the time. And I was like, well, yeah, we all got aches and pains. He's like, you don't understand.

44:04 He's like, I know what it's like now to be conscience without a fallen body, and it hurts all the time. And you don't know any different because you've come up in mortality. And when you have the opportunity to compare and contrast, he's like, it's not like I'm saying I want to go back right now. But what I am saying is that there is a difference, right? And so now you take that that Adam and Eve did with the Adam God doctrine being in place there, that they are the the father and mother of our spirits and bodies. They obviously have an awakening to where they have come from.

44:45 They want some sacrifice, right? That is love unfeigned, right? Love for your children so much that you're like, we got to go through hell again, so be it, here we go. And off they do go. The sacrifice that they make is so important, and I think perfectly with what you were saying, that the fall is just as important as the Atonement is and requires a similar sacrifice to get their children where they want to be. Right. And I loved how you just basically really summarized it and you know, in terms that a child could understand.

45:31 What is the Adam God theology? What are you talking about when you say the Adam God doctrine or Adam God theory? And, you know, as, as I have a lot of opportunity with all my kids to explain those types of things and have conversations. And as we've as we've discussed it, that's basically all it is, is it's, you know, there was a daddy who had some kids and he loved them and he wanted to help them reach their full potential. And there was only one way he could do that, and that was by creating the earth. And, you know, do you think a good daddy would send somebody else to raise his family, have his kids? No.

46:21 Like, this is something an elementary school student just naturally understands. Like, it it doesn't take a degree in theology to really get the the why on these. But it it's it's just beautiful. Like, yeah, as a dad, why would I ever outsource my children's safety or instruction or whatever to somebody else? Like why would I do that? Right, you, you might, you might, you know, take mom on a date and leave the oldest kid in charge for a hot minute, right? But you're not. You're not farming that out long term to anybody else. No, exactly.

47:08 And so, so, yeah, now we've kind of defined the term a little bit, you know, explained the theology in its, in its purest simple, just boiled down to this essence. And we've kind of explored kind of, or at least introduced some very bold theological ideas and claims, which is that like this is more important or equally as important as the atonement. It let's let's talk about kind of the the typical response and we can start with sectarian Christianity, the anti Mormons, you know who, who just love this doctrine because the church pretends that it was never taught.

47:53 And so they got they got gotchas all over the place, right? It's just a landmine. They but they, they love, they also love to hate it passionately. They hate this doctrine and you know, nothing will evoke an anti Mormon Christians, you know, throwing around the the B word blasphemy like Adam God theology. And you know why? Let's let's just think about why is that such a common response reaction to to this theology?

48:34 I've got a theory, just a theory. If if we look at the God of the creeds, he is a body without parts and passions. He is not relatable to us, right? And and they tell you as much. You can't comprehend him. Don't do that. If all of a sudden man can be raised up to understand God, well, now all of a sudden God has proximity. OK, now all of a sudden that relationship that you talk about, that you strive for, oh, that gets way more applicable.

49:17 OK, next, if Adam and Eve aren't the bad guys, if they're not the villains of the story, well, now you got to wrestle with your own crap. That is uncomfortable, right? Look, there's that old saying that the truth will set you free. That's a true statement, but we don't preface it first or give it its qualifier at the end. The truth will set you free, but often times it might make you a little miserable. 1st And when you start to approach God, you have to understand those are things to be wrestled with things to be the struggle there to get your mind to raise up to that point is not a natural thing for man to do.

50:11 It takes discipline, it takes hard work and it takes repetition to get there. And I think that for all those reasons, it makes God, it gives God proximity. He's no longer without parts and passions. It makes us be in charge of our own crap, right. If if we're punished for our sins and not atoms now we don't get the benefit of going well, OK, I looked at that woman a little too long, but it's kind of Adam's fault, right? I mean, that's what happened. You can't, you can't just blame him. And then you've got to do the work to elevate your own mind and your own understanding up to him, unless you really want that relationship with, with deity.

50:57 That's, that's a big ask. So it's just my opinions. Yeah, you can't scapegoat and there's no place to hide any longer. And they they hide their actual fear of the doctrine and its implications on their personal responsibility. They hide behind outrage, though. It's outrage culture and it's this, you know, and guess what? It's the same tactic that the scribes and Pharisees used against Jesus in the New Testament. You know, Christ basically said we are the sons of God. I am this. I am the son of Adam, if, if you actually look at it in Hebrew, the word Adam is the same word as the word man.

51:41 And so when he says I am the son of man, he's literally saying I'm the son of Adam. And, and, and what was their response, though? I mean, these, these ancients, and we're so much more enlightened and, and advanced than than ancient Pharisees were right, Of course, but they, they, they instantly go to thou being a man makest thyself God. So it's, they're, they're, it's this outrage culture of a perceived debasement of God. And it's entrenched in monotheism. The this idea that, oh, it, it can only be one God. You know, there's interesting things in the Old Testament that certain scholars interpret as there's different authors. There's there's the, the Jehovah ists, the they call them Yahwists.

52:39 Then there's the Elohim camp, and then there's other, the priests. And anyway, I don't want to get into the weeds on that, but but it does appear that the the Old Testament either has multiple authors with kind of different perspectives, or there were there were edits that were made, perhaps well intended or perhaps not. But but ultimately the the point being this, this absolute insistence on monotheism is not something that is throughout the Bible. There are certain passages that that do insist on it, but not all of them. And so, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a different conversation.

53:23 You've kind of already had discussions with Joshua Erickson and and others on that topic. But I think it just bears keeping in mind, again, that that the, you know, sometimes you can appeal to the scriptures to settle questions, debates, you know, doctrinal concerns or, or, you know, uncertainties. Other times, though, the scriptures have been tampered with. The Book of Mormon is and and the doctrine and Covenants, the the modern restoration scriptures are the lone exception because they they were preserved in purity by God, by God's hand.

54:07 At least it's it's professes to. So if you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, then that comes with the territory. It's it's it's unique in in the volumes of scripture in that way. Then the other thing is that the we have the other teachings of Joseph that, you know, 'cause certain things were canonized and published is revelate in revelation form. Other things, though, are kind of more like the oral traditions, things that were taught privately, things that were not publicly announced. But we have the temple liturgy and and those types of ceremonies. And so we, we are great beneficiaries of, of something that the ancients didn't really have. We have access to pure scripture that, you know, not even the ancient Israelites apparently had at least post exile. And because that's what the Book of Mormon talks about is that's that's when things got corrupted. So anyway, again, going back to this perceived debasement of God, that that how could you think that God was like a man? And, and it's not, it's a, it is funny when you to, to me, but I get it like, 'cause I did not

55:39 grow up with these perspectives. This is something I earned after a lifetime of study, you know, and, and prayer and and and and effort. But yeah, these are the things that are difficult to hear for the first time. But, but the way that I would explain is that we're not debasing God. We're not insulting God. It's, it's elevating human potential and, and it's the, it's the elevation of human potential that that Christians don't like. Because again, talk about responsibility. 100% it. It not only just elevates our potential, I really believe that it, it, it elevates, it enlightens our, our comprehension and our, our, our minds to seek for, for better things.

56:38 Right. But again, if you're, if you come from a place that your, your religious responsibility is to sit in the pews for an hour and a half in the morning, throw, throw a 50 in the collection plate and then head home for the rest of the day with doing nothing else. It's a scary proposition, right? Look, I'll be the first one to admit when, when I joined the LDS church, we were still having the three hour block, right? And you know, we, we, we went through the thing where I, I gave up smoking, I gave up drinking, I gave up, you know, coffee. And then they're like, oh, and by the way, there's three hours of church. And I'm like, look, if your God can't get it done in an hour and a half like everybody else's, I don't know what you want me to say, but like understanding these things that the fall in its proper context is going to require more and it's disconcerting.

57:41 And when your notions of who God is are challenged, that's disconcerting, right? I don't, I, I'm not saying that from a place of saying they're just lazy, right? Because I don't believe that. I just think that it is such a drastic departure from everything that they thought was Orthodox that it it's unsettling. Absolutely. And you know, we've been a little bit hard on sectarian Christianity, but let's talk. Let's pivot and talk about the early Latter Day Saints. This is a quote from Joseph Smith.

58:23 This is from June 11th, 1843. You can find it in Church History volume 5 page 424. He says many men will say I will never forsake you, but will stand by you at all times. But the moment you teach them some of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God that are retained in the heavens and are to be revealed to the children of men when they are prepared for them, they will be the first to stone you and put you to death. It was this same principle that crucified the Lord Jesus Christ and will cause the people to kill the prophets in this generation. Absolutely. So, and you hit on one of the things which is like traditions and, and you know, section 93 in the Doctrine and Covenants.

59:08 I'll, I'll pull that up real quick. Section 93. Verse 39. Few months back, Justin Frankham had an idea to make learning about the fullness of the restored gospel a lot easier. It was an idea that once I had my mind wrapped around it, I felt like it could do a lot of good. Mormon Legacy Ministries is a multi denominational ministering effort to provide a safe landing place for Mormons to land until they find their forever church home, while at the same time offering folks an opportunity for worship and fellowship. Here's a little bit of what Mormon Legacy Ministries is offering. Every second and 4th Saturday of the month at 3:00 PM Mountain Standard Time, a sacrament meeting is conducted by Joshua Erickson. Every Thursday at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time is the Gospel Fundamentals class hosted by Elior Walker and Braxton Bogart. Quarterly men's meetings are also held. The next one of those will be Saturday, February 14th at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time.

1:00:04 There's a women's organization, and to learn more about that, go to mormonlegacy.org and click on that link. Finally, for a limited time, starting February 2nd at 6:00 PM and every Monday after that at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time, a discussion group will be held on the book The 5000 Year Leap by Cleon Skousen. So whether you're an independent Mormon fundamentalist, or maybe you're a Mormon fundamentalist already in a group, but you want more opportunities to learn and serve, or perhaps you're an LDS person wanting to learn more about what your theological cousins believe, or maybe even you're not a Mormon at all and you're just curious about the faith, Mormon Legacy Ministries is the place for you where you can go to learn all those things from the comfort of your own home over Zoom. To get there, all you need to do is go to mormonlegacy.org and then click any or all of those classes that are being offered there.

1:00:58 Again, that's Mormon legacyministries.org. Go there today and sign up. Talk specifically about how the adversary uses traditions. And so this is section 93 verse 39. Easy to remember because it's 93 then 39 and that wicked 1 cometh and taketh away light and truth. So how it so that the adversary can actually dumb us down, You know, stupify us, take away light and truth through disobedience. So outright sin or rebellion is is one form from the children of men. But then the second form, he said it, it, it reads because of the tradition of their fathers. And, and so we inherit traditions 'cause that's how we were raised.

1:01:47 That's just where that's kind of how our human nature is. And, and we tend to not depart from them. You know, the proverb talks about the, the child raise up a child in the way he should go. And when he's old, he will not depart from it. Why? Because we are creatures of habit. We, we love doing the same thing that we've always done. What's familiar to us, Right? And, but, but, so that is a problem if the thing that we've always done isn't the right thing, right? So, so, yeah. But the adversary can use our sincerely held false traditions as a tool to, to damn us and, and, and without even without even us realizing it, cause a tradition, you know, you think about a, a false tradition and it's that that's there's a reason it's a tradition. It's because we think it's right. So, so anyway, let's, there was another quote I had kind of similar, but it just another instance of this. And now these quotes, I'm, I'm presenting it in the context of Adam God theology.

1:03:05 They were not explicitly Joe Joseph was not saying, for instance, one of these mysteries of the Kingdom of God is, is Adam. So I, I'm, I'm just applying it. I'm not directly attributing these quotes, but there's another one. But he, he made several of them. Another one that I was able to find in my notes pretty easy is in on January 2420, first 1844, so just six months after the first one. This is in History of the Church, Volume 6, pages 184 and 5. He says there's been great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn Dodger for a wedge, a piece of cornbread for a, a wedge and a pumpkin for a, a beetle or a mallet to beat it with.

1:03:50 Even the Saints are slow to understand. So he's kind of venting a little bit here. He's kind of a little bit frustrated that he's, he wants to share more and he is not able to because the Saints are so unwilling to accept it. And we frequently see some of them, the Saints, even the Saints are slow to understand. I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God, but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as they as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions. They cannot stand the fire at all.

1:04:30 How many will be able to abide a celestial law and go through and receive their exaltation? I am unable to say as many are called but few are chosen. Taylor yo, if if you don't mind this, this is so good, right? Because this is showing a, a human pattern, not just a, a sectarian or a Mormon pattern. This is a, this is a human pattern. I remember when we were adopting our twins and they were, it was so silly. I already had four kids. The state asked us to adopt them. We were happy to do it. And but one of the first things they said is once we got back there and me and Amber were both there, they're like, hey, you guys are going to need to become foster parents 1st. And I was like, right, but we're going to adopt them. And they're like, right, that, but policy is you have to be a foster parent first.

1:05:27 I'm like, OK, what do we got to do? You got to go take a six week parenting course and I'm like, I was like, no, so I had four. What's that? You. You already had four children at this .0. Yeah, I had four kids at this point, right? And so I'm like, oh, you, you guys, right. But I'm like whatever. Feeling a little bait and switch there. Feeling a little bait and switch, right? I just still done it right, but like I didn't negotiate a little harder. But anyway. I, I said OK, well I'm back. I had to go back a month early in front of Amber and the other four kids, right?

1:06:07 Because I had to go out. I had to buy a house. I had, you know, the job was easy. I just messaged a buddy back who messaged me like 2 weeks before asking if I was ready to come back. And I was able, you know, I went back a month ahead. I got the house and I thought, OK, since since this has to be done, I'm not doing anything except going home to my lawn chair in my house and either ordering pizza or eating chili and eating it out of the one pan with the one spoon I got. So I guess I'll just go ahead and bite the bullet and get this done. So I went in by myself that first time around and the rule was as long as one person was a foster parent, they could go ahead and place the kids, right?

1:06:49 So my thought is, is I'll get here, I'll get it done, and then if Amber needs to get it done, she can get it done while she's here and then I can watch the kids why she goes out and do that. So I start taking these classes and they are painful. I mean painful. I get through, I get through there. They were twice a week for six weeks and I got through exactly 3 classes. And I remember in the middle of that third class I'm like, I just, I can't do this anymore. This is horrible. God, Get Me Out of this. And that night when the class was wrapping up, the guy they were it was team taught by a woman and and a man.

1:07:29 And look, that woman could tell I did was not happy to be there, right? Like she didn't call on me. And to be honest, I was really good about that. I was happy with that. I made sure that she knew I wasn't happy to be there. I was playing the game. But the dude who was the other teacher, he got sick that night. Like, you saw he really got really white pasty. Like he ended up dismissing himself and going home. We were just wrapping up the class when this woman's cell phone goes off. She looks at it and you can tell her countenance changed and she shuts it off. And we're getting ready to to head out. And she's like, Dave Sanders, can I see you for a minute?

1:08:10 And I'm like, it's no different than high school, right? It's no different than high school. I'm going to the principal's office. That's what's going on. And I go up and I'm like, yes. And she's like, you don't like being here, do you? And I'm like, I hate being here. And she goes, I just got noticed that we have to go do an extraction. Basically we got to get kids and there always needs to be two of us and nobody else is available. If I sign your card right now, will you go with me? Because if you're a foster parent, you can go with me. OPS are going to meet us there. They're just always has to be two of us in the car together with the kids. And I'm like, done, I will do that right now. Done.

1:08:51 So not going to mention names because I don't want to get the poor woman in trouble with her uppers there and whatever bureaucracy she's now serving in. So I go on this on this, right? And she's telling you she's kind of prepping me in the car. These are the things you need to watch out for and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, sweetie, no problem. We get there. The the cops are already there and they've got the parents in handcuffs go in. They've been cooking meth. We went in and that house, Taylor, was the most disgusting house I had ever been in. There were feces on the wall, There was rotten, moldy food on the counter. The kids were malnourished.

1:09:34 It was depravity, absolute depravity. How someone could let a kid live in that is beyond me. But here's what stuck out to me. As we were taking the kids, they were still screaming to stay where they were, screaming to stay where they were. Didn't matter if I said, sweetheart, listen you, there's not enough food here. Mommy and daddy are sick. We need to help you guys. We're we're here to help you guys. And it still tears me up a little bit to this day. Nothing I could say would comfort them in that moment because they wanted to stay where it was familiar.

1:10:18 Now, how does this tie into what we were just talking about? We strive as human beings to stay where it's familiar. When we get pressed, it's uncomfortable. We don't like it, right? When we're forced to change places or, or, or our thought patterns or any of those other things, we don't like it. It's not comfortable, but, but that's where the growth happens, right? And so as we encounter these things, right? And, and I'm really speaking to the LDS audience at this point, as you encounter these things, there's going to be this natural feeling of needing to stay right where you're at in all your beliefs and all your thoughts. If you're stagnant, if you're not moving forward, you're not progressing.

1:11:15 And how can you tell you're progressing? Well, you just like, you know, you're making gains at the gym because it hurts a little bit and you have to be willing to sit with that hurt for a minute to get down to the truth. And I think that's what Joseph is talking about there, right? If I could just get them to temporarily even abandoned, not even abandoned, but maybe move what is familiar to the back burner. They're capable of so much more, and I think we need to realize that as we encounter these other doctrines, it might be a little foreign to us. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, some fundamentalists maybe are familiar, but that doesn't just because you're familiar with this, just because your debt, your parents taught you this theology, doesn't mean you believe it. And so, you know, and I think it's important to kind of acknowledge, let, let me share 1 great quote from Brigham Young, Heber C Kimball, Johnny Page, Wilford Woodruff, John Taylor and George J Smith, like the, the, the leadership of the 12 and they, they issue a letter to the elders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, to the churches scattered abroad and to all the Saints. So this is like a a a press release, right? This is for all an internal memo for the whole everybody that's involved in the church.

1:12:44 He says they say study the word of God and preach it and not your opinions for no man's opinions worth a straw advance no principle but what you can prove for one scriptural proof is worth 10,000 opinions and I think for anybody that is a teacher of the gospel or you know it has any kind of responsibility or opportunities to serve as in a teaching capacity. This is like this should go we should print this off stick it on your mirror, stick it in your on your wall so you're seeing it like all day every day. This should be kind of our our rallying cry as teachers of the gospel. Nevertheless, the the the challenge with Adam God theology is that we have to acknowledge that there are scriptures that seem to contradict it.

1:13:35 And so we have to balance this with freedom of conscience and we have to respect different different people that may be in different places in their testimonies and whatnot. In fact, Joseph Smith, there was a, a guy named Pelletaya Brown or Palatia. I'm not sure how the how, what the pronunciation is, but Pelletaya is. And so this is so this is Joseph Smith standing up in like a general conference talk basically. So this is April 8th, 1843. So about just over a year before he was killed. This is in History of the Church, Volume 5, page 340. And so he kind of tells the story, the back story in his talk.

1:14:21 So I'm just going to read this. Elder Pelatia Brown, one of the wisest old heads we have among us and whom I now see before me, has been preaching concerning the beast, which was full of eyes before and behind. And for this he was hauled up for trial before the High Council. I did not like the old man being called up for airing and doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist and not like the Latter Day Saints. Wow. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammelled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he airs in doctrine. And there's a lot to unpack in that. So, so basically he doesn't ever say whether or not Elder Pelletier Brown was preaching false or true doctrine. So that's, that's one interesting thing that we, we just don't know what Joseph's opinion was on, on the doctrine that Pelletier Brown was preaching. What what we do know is Joseph didn't like that he was called up for trial and he says that you know, we don't have creeds. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. And this goes back to article of faith #11 we claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all men

1:15:53 the same privilege. Let them worship how, where or what they may That that's more than just a cute little, you know, thing that you embroidery and or you know, that you teach kids to memorize. That was like Joseph's core principle. He really cared about freedom of conscience. And and so, you know, whether you believe, you know, I'm not sure who your listeners are. Maybe some are fundamentalist backgrounds, but don't you know, they're just curious and then this is what they're familiar with. Maybe there's, you know, hardcore believing fundamentalist that have devoted years of theirs of their life studying these things.

1:16:40 Maybe there's some LDS people that that are kind of new to all of this and, and still figuring stuff out, like, I don't know where, who, where you're at, whoever's listening. But what I do believe is that I can't prove the Adam God theology from the Scriptures or you know, like rationally, any more than you can prove it isn't true. Like, let's let's be fair, this is not one of those things that you can prove one way or another. No, because you can find scriptures that seem to allude to it and scriptures that that would seem to to say the opposite, right? We would have to be.

1:17:22 However, I would say this, and this is one thing that I think all of Mormonism is losing a little bit and I think it's worth bearing out. What's the Mormon definition of scripture, Taylor? Well, there's Canon, and then there's scripture. Exactly. And that's where I'm going. That's that's where I'm going. These are Canon, right? This is this is a collected works of sacred writings that have been presented and voted on as being in the Canon. OK, but Mormon, the the Mormon idea of scripture is far more expensive, right?

1:18:02 It is whatever is said by the servants of the Lord when moved upon by the spirit of the holy by moved when moved upon by the Spirit. OK, so if we take that and we say, OK, so that's the standard it moved upon by the Holy Ghost. I would say pay attention to not just what you're reading, but how it makes you feel. If the Holy Ghost communicates the truthfulness to you, that's something to keep a hold of even if you don't understand it, because I agree with you 100%, Taylor, You can find both verse. You can find both verses for and against the Adam God doctrine and all of Scripture.

1:18:51 And so when, when that happens, you should be left to revelation at that point. And so I would also say that to understand the Adam God doctrine, you're going to need revelation. And Christ kind of tells us so a little bit when, when he said, you know, when he's talking to Peter and the other 12 in, in Caesarea Philippi and he asked them, who do you say I am? And Peter finally gets to say, well, you are, you're the Christ, you're the Son of the living God. He said, blessed art you, art thou, Simon Barchona, because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but thy Father, which is in heaven, indicating that there was revelation there that happened. Now if that's what it takes to say that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, it's also going to take that same revelation to figure out who his Father is.

1:19:40 And that is of the utmost importance per what is said in John, where this is life eternal, to know Jesus Christ and the only true God that sent him. Yeah. And so if you, if you are absolutely opposed to this theology, I understand. But I would invite you to consider what if you're wrong? Because really it's, I think it's fabricated outrage in so many cases. The, the, the people who just just hate on it. And I think that it's really they're compensating for, for deeper issues, which is an, an unwillingness or a fear of being responsible for your own choices all the time. And, and it's way easier to have a scapegoat. So the if, if this is true, again, like I kind of I think I already said this, but it's worth repeating. If it's true, it's not demeaning to God. It's it's elevating to human potential. So and the other thing that you you were, as you were just talking about Dave, you know, scripture. I think another thing that is not official Canon, but is, is, is scripture would be like the

1:21:12 temple. It's, it's not in the standard works the the things that are taught in the temple, but it was, it was given by inspiration of the Holy Ghost like that. That is part of what the temple does is, is it instructs us and it, and it empowers us, the things that we learn and the covenants that we make in the temple instruct us and empower us to follow the Spirit. And so if you're not familiar with that, if it's not something you've had experience with yet, that's fine. But I would encourage you to, to prepare and, and seek that out and, and receive that witness and the let's see, one other thing.

1:21:57 Oh, you were talking about, you know, how does it make you feel? You know, feelings in absence of reason. Like if somebody's trying to get you to just go with your feelings, that's a red flag. Other people, because feelings can be manipulated. Ask anybody that's a victim of like narcissistic abuse or any kind of emotional abuse. Like feelings can be manipulated quite easily and and for very evil, wicked things. And so you can't just trust your feelings. By the same token reason, you know, people can be reasoned into some really dumb ideas and it can seem rash. Like, for instance, libertarianism. You know, you follow the, the you follow libertarianism to its full logical conclusion and it's a freak show, right? And I, I, I'm saying this as a former, you know, libertarian leaning person myself and, and with friends that are, I mean, it's all in good fun.

1:23:00 I'm, I'm not, I don't mean to be offensive. I'm not meaning to cause any offense to anybody. But you look at let's, let's just look at the, the annual convention that the Libertarian Party throws every year. You're right. You're right, and I have many libertarian leanings right. Right. But you know, I used to, I used to identify as a libertarian and I thought it made the most sense because like, well, fiscal conservatism and social libertarian like liberalism, that sounds like a great thing. And you know, that was during the especially in the 2008 and 9 Ron Paul movement. You know, I, I was, I was very involved in that at the time.

1:23:43 And you know, there's a lot of good, there's a lot of truth in libertarianism. But when you follow it to its actual logical conclusion and you see what the people who are hardcore libertarians in the, especially the leadership like, I'm not talking about the, just the political philosophy of libertarianism so much as I'm talking about the Libertarian Party in our political system. But you look at the Libertarian Party and what their people are advocating for and like, it's really hard to make a case against pedophilia using the logic of modern things, because if it's, as long as it's consensual, you know, but it's like now or just complete debauchery and in, in multiple forms.

1:24:39 And so like, that's, that's where I, I, I take issue with that. But this, this principle of freedom of conscience and the thing that we need to to be careful of is you. You don't want to just be wholly reliant upon your reason, powers of reason, but and you also don't want to be wholly reliant on your feelings. That's why in section, I think it's 8 or 9 somewhere around there, it talks about how revelation it, this is a revelation directly, specifically directed to Oliver Cowdrey. But we can profit, profit by likening it to ourselves too. Which is that he I will tell you in your heart and in your mind. Right.

1:25:25 And so the we can look at the script, we need to search the scriptures, we need to be familiar and intimately acquainted with what they say on this and other subjects. But we shouldn't just like turn our brains off and and just regurgitate things that, you know, because like I said and and like you've also agreed there are scriptures and, and it's important to acknowledge that there are some scriptures that appear to contradict Adam got theology. We have to be honest and, and and acknowledge that. And, and ultimately, I think that it is, it does make the most rational sense, But the reason I believe in it and, and you know, adamantly defend it is actually because of how I feel about it. And like you, you mentioned when God is your grandpa and he gave up glory to give his grandkids a shot at this whole life thing, like that's special and it makes heaven feel much closer. You know, there's more to Adam God theology and and this like, you know, if, if we wanted to get into like the seed of Christ and that sort of thing.

1:26:47 I that was outside of kind of scope for for me tonight. But it's, there's so many beautiful things that that have just amazing implications for all of us as Mormons that were taught in the early days of the restoration. So don't just dismiss it or don't just hate it because it's unfamiliar or seems blasphemous. You know, take a take a good look at it and you know, because of the nature of it, I would love to be able to just prove it. Just say, hey, go to this book, this chapter, this verse, this proves it. And there are certain things that to me make it really hard to deny.

1:27:32 You know, Section 88 comes to mind and and Daniel 6 and the teachings of Joseph and and. Moses 7. Moses 7 Absolutely. There are certain things that appear to make a bulletproof case, but then there's other things like ether chapter 3, the brother of Jared's experiences with, with the Savior premortal Christ. There's other things that you know in the Doctrine and Covenants that appear at first glance to, to prove that this isn't a true doctrine. And so we've, we, we as Mormons, we need to be more interested in the truth than anything else. We need to be more interested in doing the thing in, in setting aside finding the false traditions that are that I currently believe in and, and dealing with them and, but never closing myself off to where am I wrong?

1:28:30 It's it's, it shouldn't be a question of God, Am I wrong? Is there an? If no, it's where and how. Can you please reveal to me how to get back into and get on a better track? Absolutely. You know, let me ask this question here because it sounds like you're getting close to wrapping up. Is that right? Yeah, there's a couple other things, but yeah, I'm pretty much. So why do you think that this is so important to understand the fall in the context of knowing who God is really?

1:29:10 And what, what does that do for us? Yeah, the the if, if God, we are everybody, I think. I can't think of any Christians or maybe Jehovah's Witnesses or Muslims. I don't. I can't. I can't. I guess I can't. It's definitive, but with it, at least within Mormonism and I think all of Christianity, we all pray to a father. Right. And unfortunately for a lot of Christians, that is just purely metaphorical or it, it's, it's not, it's, it's impersonal because we have, because of creeds that have painted this picture of, you know, like you were saying, a God without body parts and passions. And the, the sad reality of it is, is that we need to know who our Father is if we are going to actually be able to worship him in, in spirit and truth.

1:30:20 I think I'm quoting from somewhere in Peter in Paul's writings, but that we we have to come to know if we are going to do that. Joseph Smith taught, and I think this is in the lectures on faith that if a man who does not have a correct understanding of the nature of God cannot comprehend himself and, and also a man that doesn't have a correct understanding of God's attributes. I, I, I, maybe I should pull it up. But, but anyway, so to, to, to get back to your question and kind of to tie in the point. I think that we if we want to comprehend ourselves, who we are, if we want to be able to worship God in in truth and you know, with this, his spirit, we have to grapple with this and we have to figure it out.

1:31:23 And you know, if somebody's comes away from that exercise convinced that, that it's a false doctrine, I'm not going to be 1 to, to argue and, and try to change your mind. We can still work together. If you're in the restoration and you want to or any Christian group that wants to work. I'm involved with the Mormon legacy ministries. I, I'm a, an active member of a, of an organization, a fundamentalist church organization. But I would love to work with anybody, even if you think I'm crazy for believing in this, because like Joseph Smith was saying, doesn't prove you're a good or a bad man.

1:32:03 Just if you have some bad ideas it, you know, absolutely false doctrines. So but yeah. And in my personal experience, nothing has made God feel more real and personal than learning about out of God theology for the simple fact that God it brings God down to earth in a very literal sense. Absolutely. Let me let me ask this question. When you were studying all this out, did you come to a knowledge or an acceptance of the Adam God doctrine by reason first or through revelation first?

1:32:56 Probably more by well, OK, if I'm being completely honest, I read Drew Briny's book Understanding, understanding Adam, God theology. And as I was, as I was reading that book, I was in my LDS paradigm of when the prophet is speaking as a prophet, he is infallible. You know, he's he can't be he can't say anything wrong. And then I was like, Oh my gosh, Brigham Young taught this in general conference, which in my little paradigm was therefore this is true. And so it was perhaps neither reason nor nor feeling first, but more of a knee jerk reaction of oh, Brigham Young was the president of the church at this time. He said it in general Conference. Therefore, so I got to be, I got to be real honest with where I was in my I'm glad you did.

1:33:57 But yeah, that was really where it started. But then as I was going through the book and I was being confronted with, oh, wait, but Bruce R Mcconkey said XYZ and he was an apostle. And it was in a general conference setting or an official, official sermon setting. And it's like, whoa, that that broke my. That's, that's what originally broke me. Because the two can't occupy the same space. Because one of them was wrong, at least one of them was wrong, right?

1:34:40 They both can't be right. And so and so that led to very uncomfortable, uncomfortable situation for me where I had to basically figure out, wait, which which one of them is right is was Bruce R Mcconkey Lion was because because Bruce R Mcconkey is like openly claiming Brigham Young never taught these things. And, and, and not, and if you believe in it, you're, you're guilty of a heresy and you're going to hell. You know, those are the types of things that Bruce Mcconkey was saying about it. And that was hard because Bruce and Punky was like one of my favorite guys as a missionary 'cause he could just, he could just throw it down and, and just bold, you know, he was like the ultimate boldness guy and role model for a missionary. And but so was Brigham.

1:35:35 I just wasn't as familiar with Brigham earlier in my, in my discipleship. So, but ultimately, as I was reading that book from Drew Briny and it was talking, it was specifically when it was talking about the seed of Christ, Cause at this point I had come, I had come to accept Adam God theology as probably true. It was making sense. It was undeniably taught by Brigham and and various others. And it was and it and it it made it felt right.

1:36:15 I couldn't deny that that it didn't have a have a feeling to it. But what really got me was when I was continuing on in my study of this book and it goes to the the descendants of Christ. And at that point realizing that Joseph Smith was told that he was a direct descendant of Jesus. And this is perhaps news to some people listening. It's actually alluded to in Section 86 of the Doctrine Covenants. But there's also direct quotes where Joseph Smith just just openly claims it or acknowledges it, whatever, however you want to look at it. And I'm related, I'm related to Joseph Smith. And when that set in, like I, it brought me to tears and I had never felt closer to God in a, in a very literal sense, like the burning in the bosom and, and just the emotional outpouring, just thinking about the implications of that, I felt more loved and like Heavenly Father and Jesus are my grandparents, not just the, the nebulous figures in the sky, but actually real people.

1:37:42 And you know, I get because when I initially first started coming across these types of things, it was like it was repugnant to my soul at first to think that God came down and lived on this earth like that's so below him. But the more I've thought about it, the more I've studied it out and the more I've considered and, you know, considered my feelings on it, the more it is a beautiful testimony of the love of God for me and for all of our all of his other children. 100% So when I, I, when, when, when I accepted it, I remember I studied everything I could, everything I could, including Adam, God teachings, including some study guides put out by what was then probably still the gold standard of fundamentalism and fundamentalist groups, right? Their pamphlets, which were excellent on it. But then I'd see other things in Scripture that would seem to contradict it.

1:38:52 And I say seem because realistically, in my opinion, they, they do all work together. It is not at odds at all. I do think that it's hidden for a reason, right? I think that that it is a mystery of godliness that you have to strive for. But I couldn't make sense of it. I could not make sense of it. I had too much competing information. I was well aware the early guys taught it. But that wasn't enough for me just to want to hang my hat on that. Right. And I'm starting really values history. Yeah, but but I couldn't, I couldn't rely solely on history. So I did the only thing I knew what to do at that point, which was to pray about it.

1:39:37 And I got up and there was no vision. There was nothing miraculous like that. But there was a burning of the bosom. There was a very distinct message that no, this is correct, this is who I am to you. And so I got up and I said, OK, this, that's, that's what it is. And in that moment I was like, I'm never going to be able to explain this to another person, right? I just won't ever get it. And then about about two months after that, like the scripture, certain scripture started to pop out and I'm like, oh, wait a second, look at that, right? It was there, but for whatever reason I couldn't see it until I had went to God first about it. Now that's my own personal journey. You could get there many different ways, but that was that was one way I got it.

1:40:32 And then is there something you wanted to contribute there? I see. Yeah, Ether 12. Go ahead. Ether 12/6 I would show into the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen. Wherefore dispute not because you see not for you receive no witness until after the trial of your faith and trial is just a test. So it's basically God just wants to know what we're going to choose. He wants to know what do you want? And if you want to believe it, he will let he will, He will provide evidence. He will provide proof, He will provide a witness. You know, the burning in the bosom, not it. I'm not talking about proof in like a, you know, empirical or even scriptural.

1:41:20 In your case, it was scriptural, but but yeah, just some form of a witness. God has made this promise. And so, yeah, we're for dispute, not because you see not it's one thing to say you can't prove it's true. It's another thing to say, but neither you neither can you prove it's false. This is the kind of the conundrum I like to present to atheists who become that that I get involved with in discussions with is it's like, yeah, I can't prove to you that God lives, but ultimately you have to exercise greater faith that God doesn't exist because yeah, I've never seen touch, heard, felt, you know, smelled God.

1:42:10 Neither of you, none of neither of us has. But creation is self-evident. You look out, you look out at the, the trees on the mountain, you go out just in your yard, go look at a blade of grass or a dandelion plant. You pick up any little piece of creation or a, a creature, a little insect or a, you know, if you have a pet or a child, you look in the, at, at, in detail. You look real close at any of these creations and you look at the symmetry, the beauty, the order, and then try to tell me with a straight face that that just was random happenstance that you believe in. That takes way more faith than to believe in a creator, because creation is self-evident. Right.

1:42:57 Yep, absolutely. I, I want to end with this and then I'll turn it back to you for anything else you got. You got to want to add here. One of the things that I think scare people about the Adam of God doctrine is it feels like we're dragging God down to us, and that's not what's happening. What's happening with the acceptance of that is that we are raising ourselves up intellectually, spiritually to where he's at. Get that out of the way. What is the for me, the big message on the fall and the atonement is love. It took, it took three gods at least to get us to where we want to be.

1:43:54 It took our mother and father being willing to make a sacrifice, knowing full well what it would entail. They could compare and they could contrast. I'm going to go back into mortality. I'm going to become mortal again. I'm going to feel the sensations of pain and hunger and heat and thirst and cold and loss of my children potentially, and all these things. But I love them so much that I cannot not make the sacrifice for them to give them this chance. And then it took the love of our savior, our elder brother, to say, yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll do the next part. Let me take that.

1:44:49 Why would anybody in an exalted station like that ever do what they did except for love? And so if someone asked me what does the fall represent, it's not evil, it's not depravity, it's not disobedience. It is love of children and family above all other things, above all other things that love. A veil of forgetfulness could not stop the love that our parents had for us from coming forward to do what they needed to do.

1:45:37 And that's I think the big take away that we should, we should all look at. I think we need you pointed out that the atonement was just as important as the fall. And I agree with that. And I'm going to make another bold statement here. We should just like we fall to our knees and thank God for the atonement every day, we need likewise to fall to our knees and thank God for the fall every day. Because without it, we're not here and we don't have the opportunity to grow and to learn and to take our lumps and to experience the beauty that is life and a sense of joy, knowing that it all has a purpose.

1:46:22 And so what's the importance of these things? It's the importance is you know that God loves you. And that's where real relationship starts. And you want a relationship, you need to know the qualities of the person you want to have that relationship with. And by necessity, God cannot be a creature that is so foreign that he cannot be comprehended. I can't think of a father who doesn't want their sons and their daughters at some level to comprehend them at least to the point that they loved them so much that they would sacrifice any and everything for them.

1:47:04 And I'll, I'll hang it up right there and, and let you close this out here, bro. Yeah, so I, I hinted at it at the beginning, but so I've been working on some songs and, you know, I'm, I do most of the music compositional and, and, and recording performances and stuff. Justin Frankham, who's a good friend of both of ours. He is kind of a poet and he's been, he's the lyricist and, you know, we've been writing music together for a long time. We we got busy, we got married and started having a bunch of kids. And so it's been a while since we've really collaborated, but, but this is something that I wanted to, rather than just like talk about scriptures, I wanted to really do it justice in a, in a feelings way.

1:47:58 And, and nothing, music is the universal language. People can feel the spirit, whether it's in spoken in, you know, Chinese or Dutch or who cares? Like that is a, is a universal language everyone can understand. And and so for that reason, this is a super rough thing. I've only recorded on my phone. It's just like the it's basically more in the compositional stage, but I'd like to maybe share one song on on Michael Adam. So the in the song it's it's kind of a working title. It's a Michael the Prince. Cool. OK, tell me if you can hear this. RO that was awesome.

1:53:09 So you wrote the music and then Justin wrote the lyrics? Yeah, so I, I, I wrote the piano part and then the melody, and then Justin wrote the lyrics and yeah, we're actually, we're, we're writing a whole album. So that's track to Michael the Prince. Then the next one's going to be a a song sung from Michael's perspective about his wife Eve. And then we've actually got a a female vocalist that's going to be participating, contributing to Sing Eve's song, which is kind of a re imagination of for the beauty of the Earth. Nice. And and then then we're going to kind of go into the garden, tell that story, but from a, from a, a fullness of the gospel perspective.

1:53:58 And anyway, it's awesome. It's kind of ambitious, but and forgive the poor audio quality. You could probably hear my kids in the background and some dishes clanking because I was just recording it on my phone. But. Tells me it's Mormon. Yeah, I mean, right. Yeah, there's really. It's hard to find a quiet place in my house. We got 8. Kids. No, I get it. I get it. No, dude, that was, that was awesome. That, that was great. Keep it. Keep me informed on how that's going so I can let others know because I imagine there's quite a few people that would like to like to put their hands on that when you guys are done. Yeah. And the plan is we're going to just make it available for free, but with like a tip jar if anybody wants to contribute to this and maybe future projects. But so Justin and I, we actually wrote out an album when we were kind of in college about more like freedom, constitutional type of stuff.

1:54:51 And so this is not our first musical project that we've worked on together and but it's been a lot of years, so. Been a minute. Yeah, well, no, it sounded good, dude. I'm excited to hear the rest of them. So yeah, I'll, I'll keep you posted. Probably the end of the year ish, OK. It's kind of the tentative schedule that we're planning on. But yeah, like I say, it'll be available for free. In fact, I'm, I'm also writing out the music, like the score, so like the sheet music. So if anybody was interested in that, because I'd like to make this available to anyone and everyone that is interested in even doing it yourself, you know, make a make a road show out of it. Bring back bring back Rd. shows.

1:55:40 Make Rd. shows great again. Make Rd. shows great again. No. Awesome. Well dude, that was good stuff. Anything else you want to say before we wrap this up? Just my testimony, which is that, you know, God doesn't need us to believe in him, but if we can overcome our traditions, if we can catch a glimpse of his and her, you know, because God is both mother and father and their divinity and, and beauty and love for us and just their power and strength. Like all of these things that that it will enrich your life and it, it will help as we're striving to build a relationship because that's really what the gospel is all about is being in relationship with God.

1:56:29 And, and, and so, but it's hard to build a like real, solid, meaningful relationship with a stranger. And it, when you make friends with God, that's, that's, that's a good step. But I tell you what, when you realize that he's your grandpa, it's, it's in the next level. It truly is. And so that's just my, my parting testimony. This has greatly enriched my life and made my my relationship with my heavenly parents far more immediate and real. And so I just invite anybody else that maybe is on the fence or, you know, struggles with these. Maybe you were taught them as kids if you come from a fundamentalist background, but but maybe it's not something that you've clung to throughout your life. Give it another look.

1:57:25 If you're coming from the LDS church perspective like I did, I understand this is foreign, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. And and it's, it's beautiful and it's powerful. So hopefully, maybe I was, I was hoping maybe the music could convey some of that spirit as well it. Absolutely did. Well, dude, that was awesome. We'll do it again. All right, deal. All right, hang tight. 5 minutes. Thanks. See you, everybody. Bye.