March 21, 2026

Episode #227: Examining The Thompson Priesthood Line W/Sean Anderson

Show Notes
Transcript

Today on the podcast I have Sean Anderson on the podcast to talk about Joe Thompson and the work that he was involved in and his impact on Mormon Fundamentalism. Sean was a first hand witness to many of the events that will be discussed during this conversation. We talk first about who Joe Thompson was, from there we move into looking at his time as a Council Member in the AUB. From that point we take a close look at the allegations that were leveled against him and his subsequent dismissal from the council. The conversation then shifts to his work outside the AUB and others that he worked with during this time and finish it all up by looking at what his impact has been thus far in the Mormon landscape.

Mormon Legacy Ministries:

mormonlegacy.org

5000 Year Leap Class:

mormonlegacy.org/5000

1
00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,600
Hey everybody, Just wanted to
kind of set the table

2
00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:19,600
historically here with this
episode.

3
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,760
For those of you who may not be
super familiar with Mormon

4
00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,320
fundamentalist history, wanted
to make sure there was no

5
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:30,320
confusion here.
So in the early parts of the

6
00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,680
fundamentalist movement, once
that becomes a movement, we see

7
00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,320
that there's a council that's
set up in southern Utah,

8
00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,640
consists of seven men.
Later there would be a split in

9
00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,120
that council and then there
would be another council up

10
00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,520
along the Wasatch Front, kind of
up around Salt Lake in that

11
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,960
area.
So for the most part, as we talk

12
00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,160
about the council, we're going
to be talking about that.

13
00:00:53,160 --> 00:00:56,960
That council up around Salt
Lake, it it's often referred to

14
00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,280
as the Allred group.
Just kind of keep that in mind

15
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:02,560
that most of the time that's the
council we're referring to.

16
00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:03,840
I just didn't want any
confusion.

17
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,240
If you want more information on
how that all came to be, I would

18
00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,080
strongly recommend that you go
at listen to episodes 8283 and

19
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,640
80, excuse me, 8283 and 134.
And those should give you kind

20
00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:18,680
of a, a fuller picture of what's
going on.

21
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,240
So again, when we refer to the
council here, for the most part,

22
00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,800
not always, but the vast
majority of the time we're

23
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:28,400
talking about the council up
around Salt Lake or the All Red

24
00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,440
group.
With that, let's just go ahead

25
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,120
and let's just jump right into
our conversation, dude.

26
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,440
We're going to talk about some
stuff today, and this, like this

27
00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:43,480
one here is, I think, going to
fire some people up because the

28
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:52,800
man himself is surrounded with a
little bit of controversy.

29
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,920
And we're going to give some
historical context here.

30
00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:02,320
Now, before we start, I do feel
like it's fair that we make

31
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,440
mention that both you and I have
benefited from the Joe Thompson

32
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,919
priesthood line.
Yeah, which we're going to talk

33
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,480
about.
And so in the interest of being

34
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:16,320
transparent, I want to make it
clear that, yes, I have been, I

35
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,720
have benefited in priesthood
ordinances from that line.

36
00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:25,280
However, I'm going to be very
careful on what I say here

37
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,880
because I do want to get down to
the bottom of some things.

38
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,600
So even though I have benefited
from that, I'm going to do my

39
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,280
absolute best to be impartial
here as we talk about this so

40
00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:37,040
that we can get down to the
bottom of things.

41
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,000
Because I think it's important
in matters of authority that we

42
00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,120
really dissect these things out.
And I think likewise, I think we

43
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,840
would be remiss also if we
didn't talk about authority

44
00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,000
versus power when it comes to
priesthood.

45
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:54,520
OK, so where do you want to
start?

46
00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,400
Let's start with who who Joe
Thompson was.

47
00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:07,280
Well, I I personally consider
Joe Thompson as a mentor.

48
00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,120
You knew him personally.
Yes, OK.

49
00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:13,360
And Joe Thompson was part of the
council in the Allred Group,

50
00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:20,000
also known as the AUB, from the
1950s till about 1993.

51
00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,360
Right.
And he was a part of a group of

52
00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:30,120
men that were called by Joseph
Musser in in either 1953 or

53
00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,360
1950. 4 So he was acquainted
with Musser personal.

54
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:38,320
Yes, he was, and he told me
that.

55
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:44,280
And Joe Joseph Musser's later,
later life, he acted as a

56
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,280
chauffeur for him, driving him
to and fro.

57
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,080
And at the time that that he was
called, he was 27 years old, if

58
00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,480
if I recall correctly.
He was 27 years old when he was

59
00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,720
the chauffeur for for Joseph
Musser.

60
00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,440
Yes, OK.
As also when he was received as

61
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,920
ordination from Joseph Musser.
OK, all right.

62
00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:11,040
And let's just for, for the sake
of of being clear here, right?

63
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,600
We want to treat these things
lightly, but I think it's also

64
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,600
important that we call it out.
When you say ordination, you

65
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,680
mean second anointing.
Is that correct?

66
00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,399
OK, All right.
So he directly receives the

67
00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:24,000
second anointing under the hand
of Joseph Musser.

68
00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,920
I don't know if it's directly.
But it's under his authority.

69
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,640
It's under his authority.
OK, It could be that he was.

70
00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,920
Yeah, directly.
But I'm I, I never asked that

71
00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:37,000
detail.
OK.

72
00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:38,600
All right.
Good enough.

73
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:44,720
So let me ask you this then
again in the interest of being

74
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,600
fair, if if you don't know for
sure whose hand he received it

75
00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,800
under, how are we sure that he
received it?

76
00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,760
I don't think you can be sure
other than.

77
00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,440
Than what he purports.
Then what he purports and and

78
00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:10,480
quite frankly, when I when he
told me the story, I felt he was

79
00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,600
telling the truth.
The spirit bore witness.

80
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:20,280
Let me ask you this were was was
the AUB at that time ever

81
00:05:20,280 --> 00:05:23,080
putting men on the council who
hadn't received their second

82
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,560
anointing?
And by that time you mean in the

83
00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,600
early 1950s?
Yes.

84
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:33,840
I don't know if I can answer
that, but I do know that the

85
00:05:33,840 --> 00:05:37,240
original members received it
according to their own

86
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,080
testimony.
OK, All right, good enough.

87
00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,760
Yeah, that's, that's all I was
curious about is, is you know

88
00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:46,520
what kind of record we had
there.

89
00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,320
But look at some point when it
gets down to priesthood claims,

90
00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:55,760
I mean, look, we, we have one
priesthood claim that is kind of

91
00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,160
in regards to what appears to be
a woman having her, you know,

92
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,840
her regrets about not marrying
the prophet, right?

93
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,560
So I'm, I'm willing to be open
to all those things.

94
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,840
I was just kind of curious more
than anything else.

95
00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:12,640
And, and you're right, I think
given, given the time period we

96
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,040
were in, in those days where you
were trying to keep the church

97
00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,960
and the government off your
back, record keeping was not

98
00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,920
just not encouraged, was kind of
discouraged in a lot of ways,

99
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,240
right.
I, I would, I would, yeah, I

100
00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,200
would say that.
You, because because you, you

101
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,160
didn't want to be given fuel to
the to the authorities as

102
00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,360
they're coming after you and,
and these types of ordinances

103
00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,840
and plural marriage went hand in
hand in those days.

104
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:38,200
Yes.
And I'd like to make a point

105
00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:45,000
that since this was in the
period OF1935354, if someone can

106
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,600
correct me on that as to the
exact year, but that was also

107
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,600
the time when you had the raid
on shortcut in the previous to

108
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,720
that you had you had a raid on
on polygamous leaders that took

109
00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,480
place in 1944, right?
Absolutely.

110
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,040
So definitely I don't think that
they would be willing to

111
00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,080
volunteer a lot of information.
Right.

112
00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:06,760
Yep.
And and that's what the

113
00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,120
historical record does bear out,
right?

114
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,840
We do have exceptions to that
rule, like during the post post

115
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,920
manifesto polygamy in the LDS
Church, the apostles did keep a

116
00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:23,760
journal simply because there was
a feeling that at some point all

117
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,200
those things would come back
together.

118
00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,520
Right.
And the the you'd have to

119
00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,160
rectify that with records.
But it doesn't necessarily

120
00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,840
surprise me that we don't have a
written record somewhere of

121
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,840
that.
Given that if he, if somebody

122
00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,760
was to read something that said
second anointing, so and so got

123
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,360
it, you could pretty much
guarantee that they were most

124
00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:46,240
likely in those days engaged in
some sort of fundamentalist

125
00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,640
activity.
So they would be very careful as

126
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,240
they went forward not to just
disclose that.

127
00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,200
I would like to say that we're
not entirely bereft of record on

128
00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,480
that.
We do have the Joseph Lyman

129
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,440
Jessup Journal that mentions
aspects of the second anointing

130
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:09,240
referring to him and his wife.
And you know, some have argued

131
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,200
that he did it contrary to
ruling Allred's advice and

132
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,000
things of that nature.
But there's no evidence to

133
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,520
purport that that was the case.
And to me, the fact that it does

134
00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:24,200
date back to either 1853, I mean
195354 actually gives it a lot

135
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,360
of weight.
Gotcha, gotcha.

136
00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,560
OK, so was was Joe raised
Mormon?

137
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,200
Was he a convert to Mormonism?
What was kind of his?

138
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,440
Background.
He was never a member of the

139
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,120
church.
You know, the mainstream church.

140
00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,000
Really.
So he comes in cold, straight to

141
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,559
fundamentalism, right?
His mother, her name is Mary

142
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:44,840
Anderson.
OK.

143
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,360
And his father's name was
Orlando Thompson.

144
00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,640
Orlando Thompson was from South
Africa.

145
00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:56,480
Oh, OK.
But anyway, his mother, his

146
00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,320
father died when he was just a
baby as if I recall.

147
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,160
And his mother, when she
remarried, she remarried a man

148
00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:08,200
by the name of Kilgro as being
the the last name who happens to

149
00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:13,040
be the actual father of Lynn
Thompson, who later became the

150
00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,280
president of the AUB.
Interesting.

151
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,320
OK.
But anyway, he actually, he

152
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,440
actually told me a story that if
it hadn't been for his mother,

153
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,720
he probably would have grown up
being a Catholic.

154
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,960
And that was because when he was
a little a little boy, his

155
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,680
mother was having a hard time
making ends meet as a widow.

156
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:40,960
And and he says that she put him
in a in a Catholic minus or the

157
00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:46,800
convent to be taken care of.
And when she felt she had better

158
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,600
control of her ability to take
care of him, she went to go get

159
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,440
him.
And they were reluctant to give

160
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,040
him up to her.
So he she went and took him.

161
00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,640
Oh wow.
And took him away from there.

162
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,360
So we could be talking about Joe
Thompson as a Catholic

163
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,480
theologian had had his mom not
been a little a little

164
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:09,120
vociferous in getting him out of
there.

165
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:10,720
Right.
Interesting.

166
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,200
So how does he encounter
Mormonism?

167
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,000
Well, I believe is through his
mother.

168
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,880
You know, I think she was, I'm
not entirely sure, but I, I

169
00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,200
honestly believe she had ties
with fundamentalist Mormonism at

170
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,800
that time.
And so he grew up as a

171
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,360
fundamentalist from pretty much
the inception.

172
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,040
All right, interesting.
OK.

173
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:37,640
So when, when does he join up
with like fundamentalism as we

174
00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,040
would know it?
Is he around?

175
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,280
Is he active it during the times
of the Short Creek?

176
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,520
Creek aids that sort of, yeah.
He was, he was at, he actually

177
00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,600
lived in Short Creek for a time,
OK.

178
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,680
And and he had his first wife
there, if I recall well, while

179
00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:59,440
still at Short Creek.
And he was involved in the

180
00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:01,720
United Effort plan.
Yep.

181
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,360
As a young man, as a matter of
fact, in my, my dad's

182
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,720
stepfather's journals, he
mentions him, you know, as as

183
00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,080
part of that community already.
And that Joe, I think, and Joe

184
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,960
Thompson at that time would have
been about 2224.

185
00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,320
OK.
If I'm not mistaken it was

186
00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,560
around 1943 so I guess that
makes him like 21 because he was

187
00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:24,640
born in 1924.
OK.

188
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,240
All right.
So when does he start to become

189
00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,560
acquainted with Ruin Allred?
Well, I would say pretty early

190
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:35,960
on, I don't know exactly when to
be exact, but.

191
00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:39,520
Because Ruin wasn't living in
Short Creek, right?

192
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,480
Ruin was living in Southern
California, if I'm not mistaken,

193
00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,600
for a while.
And was Musser's personal

194
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,800
position right?
I'm not too sure about that

195
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,160
myself, but I do know that Ruin
was acquainted with the

196
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:54,960
fundamentalists.
See a lot of that.

197
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,240
What I'm telling you is right
out of the journal of, of my, my

198
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,640
dad's stepfather, a man by the
name of George Kelmar.

199
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,440
And he writes in there speaking
about ruling Allred and he

200
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,120
mentions Joseph Thompson as
well.

201
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:10,960
Now, at the time, Joseph
Thompson would have been 21

202
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:13,680
years old and ruling would have
been, you know, at least 10

203
00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:15,480
years old, right?
Or more.

204
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:18,480
OK.
All right.

205
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:25,160
So I'm trying to get the the
feel for for when Joe kind of

206
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,800
throws.
And again, I got friends on both

207
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,320
sides of this, so please know
I'm not trying to stir up any

208
00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,280
controversy here.
I'm just trying to examine the

209
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:37,480
man's life.
So how does he become acquainted

210
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,880
with Ruin then?
Do we know that at all?

211
00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:42,480
I think.
I don't know.

212
00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,760
No, I don't know that.
But I do know that a lot of he

213
00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,840
was already engaged in meetings
with Ruin Allred through Joseph

214
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,600
Thompson, through Joseph Musser.
Excuse me?

215
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:56,280
OK.
All right.

216
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:59,320
So he, so he probably meets him
through Musser, right.

217
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:03,960
He was acquainted with Musser
and then he, he comes up north,

218
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,680
so to speak from Short Creek
with Allred and those guys.

219
00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:12,880
And it's at that time that
Musser passes along the

220
00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,760
authority or second anointing.
I'm not positive of whether he

221
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,400
comes up north at that time.
OK, that's not part of my

222
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,640
recollection as to when he made
the move or anything like that,

223
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,680
but I do know that he was
aligned with Joseph Musser

224
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,880
around that time and he told me
honestly about the that they had

225
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,280
a controversy regarding 1 of
Joseph Lyman Jessup's daughters

226
00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,440
being married without the
knowledge of Joseph Lyman

227
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,680
Jessup.
He apparently had a 15 year old

228
00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:48,360
daughter that was married
without his knowledge.

229
00:13:48,680 --> 00:13:52,160
That's a problem.
And it created a controversy

230
00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:57,040
that involved Joseph Musser,
Joseph Lyman Jessup, where they

231
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,600
went down and argued that with
the Short Creek Council.

232
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,400
I see.
I see.

233
00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:07,280
OK, All right, so let's let's
wait.

234
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,400
Once the AUB is established and
going, what kind of columns does

235
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,640
Joe hold inside the AUB?
He's in the, he's in the

236
00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:16,520
council.
He's in.

237
00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:18,280
He's on the presiding council,
yes.

238
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:20,360
And have a break.
Yeah, Yeah.

239
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:23,560
Sorry about.
That no, you're good.

240
00:14:29,970 --> 00:14:33,530
Hey, so I'm going to ask a few
questions here about Joe, Joe

241
00:14:33,530 --> 00:14:36,530
Thompson's ministry while he's
in the AUB, because often times

242
00:14:36,530 --> 00:14:40,570
you can get a feel for someone
based on what it is they, they

243
00:14:40,650 --> 00:14:42,890
feel like the Lord's put on
their hearts, right?

244
00:14:43,330 --> 00:14:47,290
So while he's on the council,
what seems to be his big push in

245
00:14:47,290 --> 00:14:51,800
terms of, you know, like if we
look at the LDS church, some

246
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,240
prophet, some presidents of the
church have been all about the

247
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:56,920
Book of Mormon, right?
We're going to flood the earth

248
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,480
with the Book of Mormon.
Others it's been temples.

249
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,160
We're going to build temple like
nobody's business.

250
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,160
Did Joe have a specific thrust
that you can look back on and

251
00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,600
say, you know, this was really
important to Joe and this is

252
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,080
where he spent a good portion of
his ministry out?

253
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,320
Yes.
I don't know if I can actually

254
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,840
speak to, you know, the entirety
of his, of his tenure and the

255
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,160
council, but I can say that
personally with my personal

256
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,880
experiences with him, his big
push was the fullness of the

257
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,720
priesthood and he called it the
fullness.

258
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:34,640
That was generally how he
referred to it.

259
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:41,320
Which is another it's another
sentence for the second yes.

260
00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:46,400
And and when you say his, that
was one of his big thrusts in

261
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:51,600
which way like.
He saw it as being absolutely

262
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:57,560
necessary for preserving the
earth and in what he told me

263
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,720
once was the what he said to me
is that the priesthood, the

264
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,840
sorry the prophecy of Malachi
that we read about in the before

265
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,520
the great and dreadful day of
the Lord.

266
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,320
He shall send forth Elijah who
who shall turn the parts of the

267
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:15,840
children, you know to the
father.

268
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,160
And then yeah, yeah.
And then we have the the Pearl

269
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,040
of grade Price version where
where Moroni comes and tells

270
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:26,040
Joseph Smith that same prophecy
and he says it three times, but

271
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:32,000
each on the last time he adds
right stuff to it and where it

272
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,280
made makes the mention of if it
were not so the earth would be

273
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:37,840
utterly wasted.
It is coming.

274
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,840
Right.
So he saw it as imperative that

275
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,520
this has to be on the earth at
the time of Christ's return.

276
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,360
He was pretty instrumental about
getting the temple built down in

277
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,240
Mexico too, wasn't he?
Oh yes, very much so.

278
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,360
Which would make sense because
those two things would

279
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,680
absolutely go together.
And and so.

280
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,280
May I say something about
absolutely why he was involved

281
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:04,079
in Mexico to begin with?
Absolutely.

282
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:08,040
When Joseph Muster was still
alive, the man that was in

283
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,240
charge of counseling with the
Saints in Mexico.

284
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:17,000
And by the saying that I'm
talking about what is known as

285
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:22,720
Colonia Industrial in Ozuma
state of Mexico right now.

286
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:28,280
Colonia Industrial means
industrial colony right within

287
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:33,000
the town called Ozuma, which is
in the state of Mexico.

288
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,720
Right.
Which is located just South of

289
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:42,720
Mexico City at the base of the
volcano Popocatepetl.

290
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,760
Gotcha.
Now when Joseph Mustard died and

291
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,560
ruling, Allred assumed the
leadership of the Allred group.

292
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,000
That's we used to call it back
then.

293
00:17:54,280 --> 00:18:00,160
Very few of us refer to it as
AUB back in the day when he

294
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:07,000
assumed the leadership there, he
of necessity couldn't continue

295
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,520
being the the counselor down
there for the people of Mexico.

296
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,000
And Joe Thompson was appointed
to do that.

297
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:22,480
OK.
Now, Joe Thompson told me that

298
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:29,120
he was always more, that he was
always more, what's the word

299
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:33,920
more affixed to Joseph Musser
than he was ruling Allred?

300
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,000
He he actually recognized ruling
Allred's authority and calling

301
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,760
and everything, but he always
felt that his mentor was Joseph

302
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,600
Musser.
OK, that tells me he's working a

303
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,320
lot more with Musser early on
than anything else.

304
00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:54,280
So he was more of a Musser
acolyte than maybe a an an

305
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,040
Allred acolyte.
He saw himself more as a as an

306
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,760
Allred period.
OK.

307
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,240
All right, no, that's good to
know.

308
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,120
See, that gives us some context
right there.

309
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:11,080
But do you feel like him and him
and ruin Allred did have a good

310
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,240
relationship or do you feel like
it was strained at all or?

311
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,360
I would think that they had a
good relationship, as far as I

312
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:22,520
know.
OK, I do believe that like any

313
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,880
relationships, they had their
strain here and there, sure, but

314
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,880
I do think that there was some
strain in certain times, but and

315
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,520
he did allude to that cause, but
it wasn't.

316
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,440
And I I will say that one of the
things that was brought to my

317
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,440
attention is that rule in Allred
made a prophecy that that Joseph

318
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:48,160
would lead his own group
eventually some to that effect

319
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,600
and they saw that as a negative.
OK, I see.

320
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:57,080
And you know, I asked the
question, but I also want to

321
00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,360
make it clear that just because
the guys aren't getting along

322
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,920
and every aspect doesn't
necessarily mean they're

323
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,080
enemies, right?
We can see this with with Orson

324
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,720
High or Pratt High.
Pratt, Which one gave you

325
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,360
Brigham?
Such stuff over there.

326
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:12,840
Orson, Pratt, Pratt.
Thank you.

327
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,760
I get my Orsons mixed up.
Orson Pratt and Brigham Young.

328
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:20,680
They fight endlessly and yet
still.

329
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,720
Kind of have each other's backs,
right, right.

330
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,840
And I think that it's, it's
important as we ask these

331
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,080
questions to realize that you
can work with guys that you

332
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,280
don't necessarily always get
along with their seat eye to

333
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,360
eye.
So I think that gives us a real

334
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:36,760
good feeling here of what this
is.

335
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,840
Joe Thompson is a guy who who
darn near becomes a Catholic.

336
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,760
He ends up going straight from,
you know, not being involved in

337
00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,000
anything, straight into
fundamentalism, Never a member

338
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,200
of the LDS Church.
Is down in Short Creek during

339
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:55,960
during some of the rough times.
Ends up moving up north, so to

340
00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,960
speak.
Is ordained by by Muster himself

341
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:06,000
and seems to do a lot of work on
the council with the AUB pushing

342
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:11,840
towards temple work and the
perpetuation of the fullness of

343
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,280
the gospel.
So that gives us a good idea who

344
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,240
he is.
Now this is where your specific

345
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,600
reminisces.
Reminiscence, will memories,

346
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,480
excuse me, will become much more
important because you knew him

347
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,080
personally.
So what year do you join the

348
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,960
AUB?
Officially, I joined the AUB in

349
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,280
1992.
Yeah, in in the spring of 92.

350
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:44,560
I started going to meetings in,
in December of 91.

351
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,200
And I went to meetings all
throughout before my baptism.

352
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,280
And I have to point out that I
was attending Christian meetings

353
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,360
as well.
And I was informed later on that

354
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,560
it wasn't proper for me to be
doing that.

355
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,240
Gotcha.
But.

356
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,120
You know, and how soon after
you, you, you start attending

357
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,080
with the AUB, not even
necessarily joined, but

358
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,400
attending.
Do you?

359
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,440
Do you meet Joe Thompson?
I didn't.

360
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,760
I It's kind of funny because the
first time I tried to meet him,

361
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,080
I went up to shake his hand
because I really liked a

362
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:27,120
discourse that he gave.
But I'll be honest with you, I

363
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:29,160
felt kind of snubbed.
Really.

364
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,880
Yes, because I went to shake his
hand and he looked at me kind of

365
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,120
with suspicion.
And so I remember feeling, you

366
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:40,160
know, that I was somewhat
snubbed because.

367
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,840
And, you know, to be fair, I
think they had a lot of guys

368
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,720
that that would flatter people
and would say things like that.

369
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,240
And I think they would get and
then later on show other colors,

370
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,160
right?
So I think they were kind of

371
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,800
jaded.
But that's just my opinion.

372
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:57,120
I can just offer you my opinion
of that.

373
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,640
But I remember getting my
feelings a little hurt because I

374
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,200
went.
I really enjoyed what you said.

375
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,480
My name is Sean Anderson.
And he was like, yeah, OK.

376
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,480
And he walked away.
That was my first encounter, you

377
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,200
know, personally with Joe
Thompson.

378
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:16,880
And that would have been, you
know, somewhere in 1992.

379
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,360
Gotcha, gotcha.
So when, when do you start

380
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:23,120
striking up like a meaningful
relationship with him 'cause

381
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,280
you've talked with me about that
quite a bit.

382
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,760
At what point do you do you
develop that that personal

383
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,800
relationship with with Joe?
It wasn't until.

384
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,400
I didn't develop that
relationship with him until

385
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,000
early on in 1994, which would
have been somewhere between

386
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,720
January and April of 94.
I can't pinpoint the exact time.

387
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,840
Right.
How's that get struck?

388
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:59,720
It got struck because in late
1993, and if I recall, it was in

389
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,320
December.
But I don't hold me to it.

390
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,080
Sure.
I made a trip.

391
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,520
I made a trip of the man by the
name of Rob Hender who wanted me

392
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,760
to go down as an interpreter for
him because he had a, he had a,

393
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,840
an interest with a young lady
down there.

394
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,160
He they've been writing letters
or whatever and he asked me to

395
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,200
go down as an interpreter.
Going down for some senoritas

396
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,680
and margaritas.
Senoritas, and they would

397
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,760
probably say the lack of
margaritas, right?

398
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,280
But anyway, so I went.
I agreed to go down with them

399
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,560
and of course he paid for my way
and stuff like that and so that

400
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:38,920
helped.
Right.

401
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,000
But anyway, because I I was
pretty broke at the time.

402
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,720
And it didn't suck.
It was probably January in Salt

403
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,880
Lake, and you were going South
where it's warm.

404
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,800
Yeah, I get it.
The only part that sucked is the

405
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:53,760
fact that I wouldn't be making
any money and and I was not in a

406
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,080
good position economically at
the time.

407
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,000
But I went down with him and to
my surprise, when we showed up

408
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,280
at the airport, Brother Owen
Allred and Marvin Allred were

409
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:10,960
there and I'd, I, it was to my
surprise, we sat in seats right

410
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:16,560
next to them and we were on the
same flight itinerary all the

411
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,760
way down.
We had a layover in Dallas, Fort

412
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:21,800
Worth.
And then from there we took a

413
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,200
flight all the way to Mexico
City.

414
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,920
And on the way down, I don't
remember having too much of a

415
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,760
conversation with the Brethren.
You know, I just.

416
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,200
Oh, you're probably at that
point, you know, because I'm

417
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,040
guessing you're what, mid 20s
probably.

418
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,440
Yes, 1990.
This is 1993.

419
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:46,080
I would have been 26.
OK, I would have been I would

420
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,160
have been like 1516.
Just wanted to throw that out

421
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,080
there.
OK, six were buds and I enjoy

422
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,280
calling you, you know, old
Anyway, so you you go down there

423
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,480
and you know, you're a young
man, right, And all of a sudden

424
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,080
you're stuck in the middle of
you know what you perceive to be

425
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,000
like spiritual giants, right?
The the proper MO is to shut the

426
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,880
hell up and just see if you
can't learn something by by just

427
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,960
being quiet.
And, and that's, that's how I

428
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,400
was.
I was just being quiet and, and

429
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,840
they weren't on the way down.
They weren't too talkative,

430
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,080
right?
I remember kind of an

431
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,880
interesting little thing when we
got to Dallas Fort Worth and we

432
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,560
had a couple hour layover there.
Brother Owen Allred laid down on

433
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,640
the floor because he wanted to
nap.

434
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,880
And I remember people coming
around and asking is he OK

435
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,080
because he's in the elderly
gentleman and, and I was, I have

436
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,960
to say several times he's fine,
he's just napping.

437
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,000
OK Side Story.
So I worked for a company for

438
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:50,080
years in Boise and it was owned
by two old people that had like

439
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,800
lived through World War 2 named
Carlisle and Maxine.

440
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,120
And we had this massive pine
tree out front of our office.

441
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:05,680
And Lyle had paid for like some,
oh, you know, the steel, really

442
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,960
thin steel wire cable to be
installed.

443
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,280
And it's like a pulley system a
pop so you can just kind of

444
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,840
string lights up.
But and he ran power underneath

445
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,520
the tree.
And one day he's down there in

446
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,360
the winter and he's messing,
he's messing with the power.

447
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:25,400
I had to step away to go get him
a tool that he was messing with.

448
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,360
And so Maxine, his wife comes
out and see him, sees him under

449
00:27:30,360 --> 00:27:32,440
the tree.
She doesn't see me.

450
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,400
And she goes while are you dead?
And she was serious, right?

451
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,160
And he goes, no, I'm still here.
And she goes, damn it, and then

452
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,280
walk back in the house.
So that just made me think of

453
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,080
that when you said that.
So, So what you, you, you're

454
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,280
heading down to Mexico here with
Joe and not with Joe, with Owen

455
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:55,120
and Owen, Owen and Marvin and
going down there doing perp.

456
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,680
How does that tie into how you
met Joe?

457
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:05,480
Well, it ties in that while we
were down there, we were down in

458
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,680
Mexico, as as you know, I went
down to interpret for this Rob

459
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:13,000
Hender, right, for his his
romantic interest that he had

460
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,600
with the girl there.
And they had a an interpreter

461
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,600
already assigned and happened to
be Moroni Jessup's brother, a

462
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:24,840
man by the name of Bernie
Jessup.

463
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,520
OK, but Bernie Jessup was also
getting married at that time.

464
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:32,640
OK.
So he was, to say the least,

465
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,320
quite distracted with with
arrangements.

466
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,600
So I was approached by brother
Marvin, Marvin Allred Owens

467
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,320
brother and and told me of the
situation and said, would you be

468
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,800
willing to translate for us,
interpret for us?

469
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,760
I said, well, I'm here with
under this agreement with

470
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,800
brother Rob Hander.
Let me talk to him.

471
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,840
So I went to Rob Hander and I
asked him and he said, Oh yeah,

472
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,280
go ahead.
Whatever those guys want, I

473
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,200
could consider it a privilege
that I brought you down.

474
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,960
That's what he said to me.
If it's going to serve their

475
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,760
interests, even better, right?
I said, OK, So I went and told

476
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,320
Marvin, he says, and he said
that he'd be fine with that.

477
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,240
So yeah, you can count on me.
And so I went with them to

478
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:26,160
pretty much every interview they
had, every discussion they had

479
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,640
in a private household, I
interpreted their talks.

480
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,320
I was there for a temple
session, I was there for

481
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,760
ceilings, I was there for
patriarchal blessings.

482
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,480
And in particular, they had an A
meeting of the solemn assembly

483
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,560
of the temple.
And in that solemn assembly,

484
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,000
Owen Allred got up and he says,
and I remember him saying a

485
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:59,440
while back, and you're all
witnesses, I was here and I

486
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:05,040
dedicated this, this edifice as
a temple or the House of God.

487
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,840
Well, I'm here to tell you now
that I have no business doing

488
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,640
that.
So all the ordinances that have

489
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,080
been performed here that require
a temple are to be considered

490
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:23,520
henceforth null and void.
And and he says from now on we

491
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,680
will refer to it as an endowment
house.

492
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,360
Well, apparently I wasn't the
only one that was shocked by the

493
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,240
statement because I looked
around and the people looked

494
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,400
like they had the rug just
pulled out from under them.

495
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,160
Oh yeah.
Some of them started sobbing.

496
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,960
Yeah, because look, even if your
living ordinances are so good,

497
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,640
which was the purpose of an
endowment house, right, Right.

498
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,200
It's my understanding that an
endowment house is perfectly

499
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,720
fine for living ordinances, but
to do vicarious work, you really

500
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,520
should have a temple.
Well, to a degree.

501
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,560
Right.
Well, yes, but under Owen's

502
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,600
interpretation, you could do
endowment work and baptisms for

503
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,240
the dead, an endowment house,
but you couldn't do what he

504
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,800
called ceilings.
Oh, OK, ceilings and also

505
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,120
ceilings of men to men, right.
Which had been transpiring, by

506
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,720
the way, right in that, in that
edifice.

507
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,120
And when I heard that and I
looked at the reaction of the

508
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,840
people there.
And as a side note, let me point

509
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:36,160
out that when we did 2 order of
prayer in that meeting, there's

510
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:37,640
quite a few people in
attendance.

511
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,640
I would say on just off the top
of my head, it seemed like 80

512
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,960
people.
And you had some plural families

513
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,600
or plural, I don't know what you
call them couples, but you know

514
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:52,240
what I mean.
Yeah.

515
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,600
A.
Man and his wife pull up right?

516
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,960
Yeah.
And so we had a big circle and

517
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:01,680
then the circles within the
circle.

518
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,480
OK, Yep.
And I remember when all the

519
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,360
signs were offered up in this,
it's order of prayer.

520
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:17,400
I remember it looking very
beautiful because it was almost

521
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,240
like synchronized swimming in a
way, you know, where you see all

522
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,400
this.
And I can tell you I, I've been

523
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,280
in, you know, I, I was in doubt
in the Mormon in the, the

524
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,960
mainstream LDS church.
And I never saw anything like

525
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,960
it, right?
It was, it was, it was beautiful

526
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,240
to behold that sacred prayer
being done that way.

527
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:49,160
But just as a side note.
But anyway, I remember thinking

528
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,000
at the time, because I'm the one
that had to interpret what he

529
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,720
just said.
Yeah, I remember, I remember

530
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,160
being nervous about translating
that because I knew the effect

531
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,840
it would have on the people.
But, you know, being true to the

532
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,360
fact, to the fact that I was
there to interpret, I did.

533
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,080
And I saw them.
I saw them.

534
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,680
I saw their reaction.
Yeah, because according to Owen

535
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,520
Allred's definition, you could
do baptism and endowments.

536
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,640
But that was it, right?
OK.

537
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,280
So let me ask you this, Sean, if
that's all that they could do in

538
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:28,520
endowment.
How for the dead?

539
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,040
Let's let's.
For for the dead, but they could

540
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,040
do ceilings for the living, is
that correct?

541
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,160
Yes, OK.
All right now.

542
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,800
That I could see where that
would jerk the rug out from

543
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,720
under people, right.
You've done all this work for

544
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,560
your kindred dead.
You've sealed them back

545
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,400
together.
And now for somebody to come

546
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,360
along and say it's it's invalid.
What?

547
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,760
What was what was Owen Allred's
reasoning behind that?

548
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:55,800
Did he give any reasoning behind
that?

549
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,760
Not really.
The reasoning he gave was I had

550
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,080
no business doing that.
That's all he said.

551
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:11,760
He didn't elaborate as to why or
why not and any of that, right.

552
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:16,880
So I have my own opinions of
what he might have been thinking

553
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:20,920
or whatever, but I have to admit
that's purely speculation on my

554
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,679
part.
Yeah, and look where he's not

555
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:24,679
here to say whether that was
right or wrong.

556
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,920
We'll stay away from that
speculation for now because I

557
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,480
think I think that's the wise
and probably the the thing to do

558
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,080
to be keeping impropriety.
So he, he jerks the rug out from

559
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,639
under folks that way, right.
And, and look, I want to say

560
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:41,639
this, I'm not calling Owen
Allred a bad man at all, right?

561
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,280
You, you can disagree with
somebody without saying that

562
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,600
they're a bad person, right?
There's nothing that indicates

563
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,440
to me that Owen was especially
nefarious.

564
00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:59,720
I think that, you know, from all
accounts, he seems to be a good

565
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:01,040
guy.
So I want to get that out of the

566
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,120
way first.
So after that happens, you go to

567
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,240
the, you have to translate it.
You see the aftermath of, of

568
00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:12,920
people's reactions.
You go to that, that prayer

569
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,560
meeting afterwards, what what
goes on that?

570
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,400
The prayer meeting that he
announced it, but.

571
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:19,760
Oh, it was at the prayer
meeting.

572
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:21,840
And then later on, he announced.
It to the general.

573
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,200
OK.
All right.

574
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,760
So after that all happens, where
what happens next?

575
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:33,720
Well, would have you know what,
I forgot one detail.

576
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:37,480
Let me go back previous to that
meeting, OK?

577
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,000
The man who hosted us in his
house, that's Rob Hender and

578
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,080
myself, right?
His name was Hidencio Juarez.

579
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,440
He was an elderly man.
And he's And one of the first

580
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,160
things he asked me if I spoke
Mexican.

581
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,920
I said, you mean Spanish says
no, I mean Mexican.

582
00:35:55,920 --> 00:36:02,320
Do you speak Mexican?
I said, what do you mean says

583
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,920
the language of the Aztecs.
I said no, I don't.

584
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:12,880
And he says I do.
He says I'm a, I'm Mexica, OK,

585
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:17,280
which is Mexical versus, which
is what the Aztecs call

586
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,600
themselves.
OK.

587
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,680
Now a lot of people when they
say Aztecs, Aztec denotes where

588
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,240
they came from, the land of
Ostlan.

589
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:26,920
You're right.
But when they arrived in the

590
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:32,080
Valley of Mexico, which was back
then was known as Meshiko, they

591
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,760
knew themselves at the Meshika,
right?

592
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:36,880
Or the Meshika?
Right.

593
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:38,920
This is where we get the word
Mexican from.

594
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:43,560
So where was Aslan at?
Well, there's debate on that.

595
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,080
My personal opinion, and it was
up around the Utah area, OK,

596
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,280
because there was a land
northward and and they speak of

597
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,320
land, you know, landmarks.
Oh, OK.

598
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:58,480
Like for instance, in the Utah
Valley we have the Mount

599
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,080
Timpanogos, yes, which is the
sleeping.

600
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,240
The sleeping woman.
Yes, sleeping woman.

601
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,600
Well, next to Popocatepa down in
Mexico.

602
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,080
Popocatepa is the volcano.
Yes, right next to it is a

603
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,840
mountain they call Ixta Sultan,
which means the sleeping woman.

604
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,000
OK.
And it has the same outline of a

605
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:20,360
sleeping.
Woman, I get it.

606
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,200
So it looks awful.
An awful lot like.

607
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,800
Timpanoga, right?
And there are some old Spanish

608
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:32,200
maps, you know, dating from the
1700s that denote the Utah area

609
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:33,920
around the Salt Lake region as
Aslan.

610
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,640
Interesting.
But anyway, that's that's a side

611
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,760
topic.
But no, I lost my train of

612
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:42,560
thought.
Where were we?

613
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,520
Well, I was saying after, after
that prayer meeting you, you

614
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:46,880
were talking about that
gentleman.

615
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,200
Who was?
Who was yes, before the meeting,

616
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,800
before it was announced?
I forgot to mention also that at

617
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,560
that meeting he announced that
they dropped Joseph Thompson

618
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,600
from the Council and that he
would no longer be coming

619
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,480
representing the council to
those people.

620
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:05,840
Oh, so that was part of the
announcement.

621
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,080
So.
So one announcement is it's no

622
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,280
longer a temple.
Anything done here that required

623
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,640
a temple, no one would consider
it not done.

624
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,360
You'll have to wait until a
temple is available to redo

625
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,920
that.
Second announcement is Joe

626
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,640
Thompson's off the council.
Right.

627
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:21,560
OK.
And this would have been 93.

628
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:22,840
You said 93.
Yeah.

629
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:26,000
OK.
So, but you you're not real

630
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,560
familiar with Joe at this point.
But I'm not, I hadn't.

631
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:30,840
I hadn't yet had a personal
conversation with.

632
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,800
Right.
So you're talking to this old

633
00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:36,840
Aztec gentleman.
Yes.

634
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,320
What?
What does he say?

635
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,000
Well, the things he said is he
and he was very proud of the

636
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,520
fact that he was an adopted son
of Bill Baird.

637
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,920
OK.
Bill Baird was a member of the

638
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,160
council as well.
Now, Bill Baird had died in

639
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,360
December of 92.
OK, so and he was very saddened

640
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,640
by that.
As a matter of fact, he was very

641
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:08,880
emotional and saying how much he
he he lamented the loss of Bill

642
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,760
Baird, his adopted father, which
was interesting because he was

643
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,840
older than his adoptive father.
Right.

644
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,440
That's your hottest, I believe
was either in his late 70s or in

645
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:19,520
his 80s.
OK.

646
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:26,080
But anyway, he says to me at one
point he says brother, brother.

647
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,040
They called me Cesar.
My middle name is Cesar Caesar.

648
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,800
Yeah, Caesar.
And I don't really like telling

649
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,960
people down there my name is
Sean because when I went to

650
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,880
school, awfully Irish.
No, have nothing to do with

651
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,960
that.
When I say Sean in Mexico, they

652
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,240
can't pronounce Sean.
They say Chun which is part of

653
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:54,320
Chungo which means monkey, and
so they used to make fun of my

654
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,560
name and call me Chango.
If you want to know what it's

655
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,720
like, me and my friend, I'm
going to use that on him later,

656
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,360
go ahead, OK?
But anyway, so I gave him my

657
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:11,880
middle name anyway and he said
Hermano Cesar, which means

658
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,560
Brother Cesar, can I have a word
with you in private?

659
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,120
And I thought I was in trouble.
Right, right.

660
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,720
You broke some etiquette.
Somewhere, yes, I broke some

661
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:25,760
etiquette somewhere.
I was a guest in his house, and

662
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,400
his house was built where he had
a little courtyard in the middle

663
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,720
and rooms around it, right?
And I was in one of these rooms

664
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,600
and his room was across the
little courtyard.

665
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,520
So he asked me to go talk to him
in his bedroom.

666
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,960
Oh geez.
So I went over there and he has

667
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,480
me sit down at the edge of the
bed and he remains standing

668
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,080
because, you know, you had a big
bed that took up most of the

669
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,520
room.
And I sat in the corner front

670
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:55,840
edge of the bed.
And he remains standing.

671
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,160
And he says the Spirit tells me
I can trust.

672
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:01,560
You.
Oh.

673
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,240
He says, so I don't want you to
repeat anything that is said

674
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:08,600
here with your companion that
you came with.

675
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,520
Can you agree to that?
And I said, yes, I can agree to

676
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,920
that.
I wouldn't dare to, you know,

677
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:16,560
break any confidence you have
for me.

678
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,400
And he says, well, I want to
start by asking you a question.

679
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,840
And I says, what's that?
What's happening with brother,

680
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,280
with brother Joe referring to
Joe Thompson.

681
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:39,040
And I said, what do you mean?
And he said, they tell us he's

682
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,600
sick and that's why you haven't
been seeing him or heard from

683
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,240
him.
But something tells me there's

684
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:48,560
more going on.
Did you know more about it than

685
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,360
that?
At that time, me, yes, I did,

686
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,320
because in August of that same
year as when they announced

687
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:55,760
that, Joe was dropped from the
council.

688
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,120
OK.
So I did know that I didn't know

689
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,880
a lot of details regarding it.
I knew I heard rumors of the

690
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,160
accusations that were brought
against him and things like

691
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:09,480
that.
And but officially I knew that

692
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,280
he had been dropped from the
council because I want to

693
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:18,840
announced it in August the. 23.
And I said to him, Joe

694
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,720
Thompson's been dropped from the
council and he said, why?

695
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,760
I says I don't know much about
it, but the allegations are that

696
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:35,360
that he was accused of of sexual
child molestation.

697
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,040
And as soon as I said that, he
says that's not true.

698
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:43,080
And I said, really?
How do you know?

699
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,720
And he said, and this is what he
said to me.

700
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,400
He said, a couple weeks ago I
had a visitor in this very room.

701
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:00,760
What do you mean?
A visitor that was very

702
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,960
resplendent and brilliant.
Do you mean very smart?

703
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:09,200
He goes, no, I mean luminous.
No, boy.

704
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,280
I said, really?
He said yes.

705
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:19,360
And he said, and he showed me in
vision that we as a people would

706
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,800
be going back to Jackson County,
Missouri, and that Joe Thompson

707
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,640
would be leading the way.
Interesting.

708
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,240
And then he said, but before
that day could come, he would be

709
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:36,920
betrayed by his brethren.
OK, I said, really?

710
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:42,520
He said yes.
Then he says to me, can I trust

711
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,080
you that you can keep this
between US?

712
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,520
And I said, you bet.
And it was after that that

713
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,920
Brother Owen made the statement
about about demoting the

714
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,960
template to an endowment house.
Wow.

715
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:01,080
So you got kind of blindsided a
little bit with two, two shots,

716
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,120
right?
One is at this point, it doesn't

717
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,680
sound like you harbor
necessarily any ill will towards

718
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:07,400
Joe Thompson.
You mean Owen?

719
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,760
No, Joe Thompson, because you
have the one meeting with him,

720
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,920
right, where you just kind of
shake his hand so you don't have

721
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,200
any ill will.
You have no ill will towards

722
00:44:16,240 --> 00:44:18,600
Owen.
But yet you're really now a

723
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,880
little bit right because you
have this, it sounds like the

724
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:27,640
this this gentleman who was who
was Aztec was carrying a certain

725
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,720
spirit about him, right.
And it's obviously making, you

726
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,480
know, the the spirits obviously
bearing some testimony here to

727
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,680
you that you feel like, OK, this
guy's legit.

728
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,440
He's not just, you know, talking
junk, right?

729
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,920
He's he's he's got got some
validity here to him, the

730
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,920
spirits carrying the
truthfulness of that message.

731
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:52,080
Then you immediately go, it
sounds like, to the, to the

732
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,960
prayer meeting where Owen
Allred, you know, says, OK, no

733
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,600
longer a temple and an endowment
house and Joe Thompson's no

734
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,040
longer on the council either,
right?

735
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:04,920
And so like, dude, how are you
taking that?

736
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,320
Your head's got to be spinning
here a little bit, right?

737
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,480
I mean, you, you, you sounds
like you took a left hook and

738
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,840
then an uppercut you never saw
coming and trying to get your

739
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,600
legs under you.
How are you processing all this

740
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:22,880
in this time?
Well, I have to say to kind of

741
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,000
prelude my answer to that is
before the controversy with,

742
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:32,480
with Joe Thompson, before that
took place, I have to admit it

743
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,800
was his talks that were my
favorite, right?

744
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:41,440
Because when I the first meeting
I attended there, uh, Joe

745
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:48,600
Thompson was speaking on the
Adam God doctrine in a very I

746
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:57,040
don't even know how to describe
it, but all I can say is all I

747
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,920
could describe it as is here is
1 speaking as one having

748
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:02,360
authority and not as describes.
OK.

749
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,320
Because I have heard
intellectual speak about it,

750
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:13,600
right, pro and con, but he did
it in an authoritative manner.

751
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:16,760
And I'm not talking about
authority of I'm in this

752
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:21,120
position therefore, but more
authority that he knows the

753
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,160
truth of it.
Yeah, the words you're carrying,

754
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,880
carrying the authority not
right, not the the, not the, the

755
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,680
supposed authority you get from
a position or a title.

756
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,920
It it the the spirits bearing
witness of of what he's talking

757
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,840
about in that.
Which is, by the way, that was

758
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,760
the time when I went out to
shake his hand, right?

759
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,120
Right where I felt somewhat
snubbed.

760
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:49,240
So at any point here, either
during this prayer meeting or

761
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:52,480
maybe subsequently after that
prayer meeting or on the flight

762
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,560
home, do you get to talk to Owen
or any of the other counsel that

763
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,680
go about what's going on at all?
Or are you just kind of in the

764
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,640
mode of, you know, I've been
hit, hit here a little bit and

765
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,840
I'm just going to be quiet and
see if I can't make make heads

766
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,200
or tails of us before?
That let me give you more

767
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:14,400
context before I went on this
trip or before the accusations

768
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,280
were made public.
As a matter of fact, just about

769
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:26,200
two weeks before the accusations
even came out, Joe Thompson, he

770
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,080
was suffering from renal
failure.

771
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:30,320
You know, his kidneys were going
bad on him, right?

772
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:35,320
So he was in the hospital and I
had, by this time I had

773
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,640
befriended 2 of his sons.
I befriended Leland Thompson and

774
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:40,760
Paul Thompson.
OK.

775
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,760
And I was getting for some
reason, I was giving Paul

776
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,480
Thompson a ride home.
And on the way home, he says, do

777
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:52,760
you mind if we stop in to visit
my dad before we go home and

778
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,600
before we you, you Take Me Home.
Sure.

779
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,120
What's going on?
He said, well, he's at the

780
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:58,400
hospital.
I'm going to go visit him.

781
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,040
OK, That's fine with me.
And this is before the.

782
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:05,840
And before the accusations.
So we went there, but I didn't

783
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,920
do much talking.
It was it was Paul.

784
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,040
How you doing, Dad and
everything.

785
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,040
But while we were there, brother
Owen showed up, Brother Dave

786
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:18,360
Watson showed up, Brother
Lamoine Jensen showed up, Moroni

787
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,320
Jessup and and his wife Martha
or Andrea was there.

788
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,760
And you know, they were there
visiting him and these other

789
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:28,720
brethren showed up.
And I do believe some of the

790
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:31,440
wives were there.
I remember seeing some of the

791
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,200
wives, some of brother Joe's
wives were there.

792
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,320
I can't remember them all by
name at the time, but they were

793
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,880
there and they, they gave him a
blessing that, that he could

794
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:47,160
heal or, or whatever.
And there was a very strong

795
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,640
spirit in there.
And there seemed to be a, a

796
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,680
brotherhood I saw with these
brethren that was, that was

797
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:02,840
pretty, I saw intense caring.
And just a couple weeks later,

798
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,880
it seemed to all fall apart.
And then couple weeks after that

799
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,760
or a month or so is when they
made the the announcement that

800
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:12,920
he'd been dropped from the
council.

801
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,760
And the charge, the official
charge was, which I always

802
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,880
considered was a little weird
because they didn't specify.

803
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,760
They just said unchristian like
conduct and unrighteous

804
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:23,720
dominion.
Yeah.

805
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:25,680
And we're going to get to those
charges later.

806
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,080
But anyway, so all this happened
before I went to Mexico.

807
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:36,400
So in some ways you can say I
was kind of primed right already

808
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,560
with what's going on here,
right?

809
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,480
Not so much knowing what's going
on or anything like that is just

810
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,120
enough.
What's happening now.

811
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,160
I was beginning to think what is
going on here?

812
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,360
Something wasn't making sense to
me.

813
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:51,800
It's unsettling.
Right, right.

814
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:56,280
Yeah, No, it's it's unsettling
when you you go from the spirit

815
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:59,480
of that hospital room being that
of intense brotherhood and love

816
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,960
to.
Almost complete antagonism.

817
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,600
Right there.
That's that's, that's a quick

818
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,080
turn around, right?
And so by the time I'm in Mexico

819
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,800
and, and then Brother Owen makes
the announcement about the

820
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:17,440
temple, I've got some serious
concerns now, especially after

821
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,360
the conversation I had with
Fidancio Juarez, right.

822
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,760
So during that time, I didn't
say anything to anybody about

823
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:33,000
the feelings I was beginning to
to engend, to generate.

824
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:39,480
At the time I wasn't saying
anything to any anybody, but I

825
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:45,720
made it.
I made it a matter of importance

826
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:50,120
that I have to go talk with Joe
Thompson when I got back, OK.

827
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:55,200
And one of the reasons is while
I was down there and I was

828
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:59,680
translating for Owen and Marvin,
we had a meeting with the

829
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,600
president of the colony, a man
by then by the name of Rosendo

830
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:07,520
de la Cruz.
And in that meeting, Rosendo de

831
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:14,320
la Cruz reported to Owen and
Marvin that Joseph Thompson had

832
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:19,840
offered him a second anointing,
which alarmed both of those men,

833
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,920
especially Owen.
I remember Owen saying, Can you

834
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,600
believe Joe was doing that down
here?

835
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:38,960
But anyway, when I got back
after my trip, I never did, you

836
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:43,680
know, speak about some of these
concerns with with anybody I was

837
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,800
traveling with.
Well, yeah, because I kind of

838
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,160
knew what what their views are
going to be.

839
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,920
Right.
And I know that if I raise some

840
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,040
of this, it would, you know,
call me into question.

841
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,600
Right.
But when I got back, I remember

842
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,200
talking to Moroni Jessup about
it.

843
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:03,280
As a matter of fact, it was him,
his wife, my, my first wife and

844
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,320
myself who were there talking.
And during that time I saw I

845
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,640
really feel like we need to go
talk with Brother Joe and and

846
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,880
Moroni, Jessup says.
I think we had to go tonight.

847
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,760
It was already, mind you, about
8 o'clock 8:00 PM and I was

848
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:24,840
living in American Fork.
And so before going though, I

849
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,520
suggested, let me call Paul,
Paul Thompson and see if that

850
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,880
would be a good idea.
So I called him and told him

851
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,000
that I wanted.
He says, yeah, my dad's over at

852
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,360
a blessing somebody's house.
They just were moving into a

853
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:39,680
house.
He was blessing their house.

854
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,400
And he says, But I'm sure my dad
would be interested in talking

855
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,320
to you.
So he's off the council, but

856
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,560
people are still calling him to
come in and bless their.

857
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,200
Home well, his children, his
children OK yes, all right so.

858
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:57,560
I feel like before we go on to
that conversation that you will

859
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,000
end up having with Joe, you
Morrow and I and your wives.

860
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:02,920
No, my wives weren't there when
I went.

861
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,800
OK, I thought you said your your
first wife.

862
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,200
Was we were having a
conversation about going to see.

863
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:11,200
Him OK, so so did did did
anybody's wives accompany you

864
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,400
guys over OK so it was just just
the fellas it's just just.

865
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,240
Moroni and I OK.
So before you go have that talk,

866
00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:20,880
I think now's probably a good
time because I, I can imagine

867
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,080
that you're, you're going to be
on a, a truth finding mission,

868
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:25,320
right?
We're going to get down to the

869
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,520
bottom of what what this is.
I imagine at this point you want

870
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:36,880
to let's go ahead and let's go
over what the charges were for

871
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,240
Joe Thompson, right?
What he was charged with.

872
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,520
And let's get into the specifics
about that and whatnot.

873
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,960
But let's do that in a second.
So I got to take a short break.

874
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:51,320
OK.
So before we go to to the

875
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,200
charges, you said that there was
one other piece of information

876
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,360
about a prayer you offered
concerning this.

877
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:01,320
OK, that was important.
Now I have to backtrack back to

878
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,920
August of 93, which is before I
made the trip to Mexico, right?

879
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,720
Because I didn't go to the trip
to Mexico.

880
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:09,760
If I recall, it was either late
November, early December.

881
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,360
OK, all I do know, and this is
probably something we could Fact

882
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:19,040
Check, is they were celebrating
Owen Allred's birthday.

883
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:21,920
Yeah, as they they even made a
cake.

884
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:27,920
And it was his birthday month.
Yes, OK, I can Fact Check that

885
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:33,320
real fast.
But anyway, the same day that

886
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,400
Brother and Owen made the
announcement in August of 93,

887
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:40,800
where they informed everybody
that they had dropped Joe

888
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:44,360
Thompson from the council on the
charges of what they called

889
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,080
unrighteous dominion and
unchristian like conduct.

890
00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:54,360
After the meeting, I was invited
by a man by the name of Louis

891
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:59,080
Herring.
He invited myself and my wife to

892
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,920
go have dinner with them and
they lived in Harriman.

893
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,680
And when we arrived there, he
apparently invited another

894
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:12,160
young, another young couple, a
man by the name of Johan Boss

895
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:16,000
and his wife.
So we had dinner and we talked.

896
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,200
And he wanted us to each share
our conversion stories, how we

897
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:24,280
came into the into the group.
Both of us came from the

898
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,800
mainstream LDS Church.
I had fundamentalist

899
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,520
backgrounds.
Johann didn't.

900
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:34,800
And we both shared our
conversion stories.

901
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,480
Well afterwards, Louis Herring
made the statement.

902
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:45,640
I want to talk about the
elephant in the room and I said,

903
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:49,800
what do you mean?
He says, well, Owen Owens

904
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,480
announcement today regarding Joe
Thompson, what do you guys feel

905
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,960
about that?
And I told him, well, I don't

906
00:55:56,960 --> 00:55:59,840
really know Joe, so I don't
really.

907
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,400
Have an opinion?
Have an opinion one way or the

908
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:08,040
other?
And he says, well, I can tell

909
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,360
you that there's a split coming
over this, and you better know

910
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:15,240
what side you're going to be on.
And I says, what do you mean?

911
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:22,000
And he says, you either are
going to support Brother Owen

912
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,440
and what he did or are you going
to stand against him?

913
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:30,000
I said.
So are you saying whether I'm

914
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,240
willing to proclaim that Joe
Thompson is guilty of these

915
00:56:32,240 --> 00:56:35,880
things or not, he goes, well,
yeah.

916
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,360
I says, well, if that's the case
and and I have to make a

917
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,200
decision on that, do you have
any evidence that I can look at?

918
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:49,240
Says there's enough evidence to
put the man behind bars for 15

919
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:52,800
years.
And I said, are you prepared to

920
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,720
show me that evidence?
And he says, no.

921
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,280
He says, I'm Privy to it.
He says, but no.

922
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:05,680
And that says then I don't
really appreciate the pressure

923
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:09,400
you're putting on me.
Right, because he's kind of

924
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,440
asking for blind obedience,
right?

925
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,400
And he said, and he says to me,
what do you mean?

926
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:20,640
I said, you're asking me to
render judgement on something I

927
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,600
have no knowledge of, right?
I says this has nothing to do

928
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,800
with me sustaining brother Owen
and his calling or anything like

929
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:29,520
that.
Is, you know, I was, I'm

930
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:32,960
perfectly, I was perfectly fine,
fine to let this controversy be

931
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,920
between Owen Joe and and the
Lord.

932
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:41,400
But if you're telling me that I
have to be on board with the

933
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:46,160
decision over his guilt or
innocence, I says I can't do

934
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:52,560
that in a righteous manner
without examining the proof that

935
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:56,320
there is or lack thereof.
Yeah.

936
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:02,840
And he again said, well, you're
going to have to, you're going

937
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:04,560
to have to, you know, make a
choice.

938
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,640
And I says you're telling me I
have to make a choice, but I

939
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:10,520
don't have access to the.
The evidence.

940
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:13,800
To the evidence.
And he says, well, you'll

941
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,160
probably have to pray about it.
That's where you get your

942
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,200
evidence.
Well, I had already read from

943
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:24,720
Joseph Smith saying that no man
can be condemned based on

944
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:28,640
spiritual evidence alone, right?
You know, I didn't say that to

945
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:29,640
him.
And that's what went through my

946
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:30,960
mind.
Right.

947
00:58:33,480 --> 00:58:42,360
And I said, well that may be,
but I hesitate to to raise my

948
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,160
voice and condemnation of any
man without any evidence.

949
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,040
Right.
And when I said what I said, the

950
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:56,120
Johann boss said kind of stated
the same thing, and so Louis

951
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,160
Herring kind of backed off.
So you think that Herring was

952
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,280
inviting you over to see where
you guys sat?

953
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,720
I don't know.
OK, it could be, maybe not.

954
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:08,080
Just kind of way of gauging.
Right, right.

955
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,800
Who knows, That's all I can
answer to that, right.

956
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,640
I'm not going to sit here and
try to speculate as to guys

957
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:23,880
motivation.
But anyway, I was kind of

958
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,920
perturbed by that, that Oh yeah,
by what he said.

959
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:32,640
So when I got home, before I got
home, I told my wife, I said I'm

960
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:37,720
really bothered by what was said
tonight, right?

961
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:40,600
And it's gotten me questioning
what happened.

962
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,480
What'd your wife say?
To that she says, yeah, it kind

963
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,440
of bothered me, too.
I said, would you be willing to

964
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:52,840
go into the true order of prayer
with me and asking about this?

965
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:57,560
She goes, yeah, So we got home
and then put the kids to sleep.

966
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:00,560
We made a little makeshift
altar.

967
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:05,240
We got in, we got into our robes
and offered up the true order of

968
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:08,520
prayer.
And the question was, is Brother

969
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:11,080
Joseph Thompson guilty of the
charges that have been brought

970
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,920
against him?
Now, granted, at the time I

971
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:18,320
didn't know what they were yet.
First, Isley, I was just asking

972
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:23,800
generally, is he guilty of the
charges brought against him?

973
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,120
After the prayer, I remember
thinking that he was innocent.

974
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:29,840
I had a very strong impression
of that, but I, I didn't get any

975
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,240
and I'll be honest, I didn't,
you know, get any.

976
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,000
Right.
Outright you.

977
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:36,640
Didn't get the particulars
right.

978
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:41,200
It was just a a blanket, no?
Well, I would say it was more of

979
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:43,560
a feeling, right?
I didn't hear enough.

980
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:46,280
Right, right, right.
Your your answer is a blanket no

981
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,760
though, right?
That's the feeling you got.

982
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,080
But after the prayer, we sat and
meditated for a while.

983
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:58,320
And I saw that that my wife had
a, an expression that showed

984
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:02,480
that she received something.
And I asked her, did you get

985
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:03,480
some?
She goes, yes.

986
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:08,920
What did you get?
And she didn't say I got this or

987
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:11,920
I got that.
She just started saying, my

988
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:16,240
servant Joseph Thompson is
innocent before my eyes, my

989
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:21,800
judgments fall on his accusers.
No.

990
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,680
If you knew my wife, she didn't
talk that way, Right?

991
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:30,520
She wasn't what I would call
very gifted and that matter of

992
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:35,360
speech, right?
Not to mention, when she said

993
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:41,880
it, it burned in my bosom and I
remember it making a big

994
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:50,040
impression on me.
OK, now that same week, this was

995
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:54,040
a Sunday, Sunday night, the same
week on a Wednesday night, they

996
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,840
had general priesthood, general
priesthood meetings.

997
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,960
I if I don't remember precisely
whether they started at 6:00 or

998
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:06,560
7:00 PM, but they were held at
the RCA building there in

999
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:10,680
Bluffton.
I used to actually take time off

1000
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,360
work because I worked the night
shift to go to those meetings

1001
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:18,320
and there were generally like 2
hour meetings.

1002
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,960
I went to one of those meetings
and that meeting was all about

1003
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:30,000
the evils of Joe Thompson.
I can't remember who it was that

1004
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:37,320
was giving the class, but it
seemed to me that it was Harry

1005
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:40,040
Garnell.
But I'm not positive, so, you

1006
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:46,080
know, don't hold me to that.
And I remember brethren saying,

1007
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,640
yeah, I always knew there was
something off of that guy.

1008
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,280
And, you know, that you were
hearing those type of murmurings

1009
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,000
and I was hearing them all
around me.

1010
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:02,920
And I remember thinking, this is
so insensitive because I'm sure

1011
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,880
there's a lot of children of Joe
Thompson in this meeting, a lot

1012
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:12,400
of his sons, right?
It just seems like a like what

1013
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:16,240
the, the, the conduct of the
meeting was very insensitive and

1014
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:22,720
improper.
I remember thinking that after

1015
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:27,400
the meeting, I saw a group of a
group, a small group of Joe

1016
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:30,400
Thompson's sons, I would say
about six of them that were kind

1017
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,600
of gathered in a little circle,
almost looked like a huddle.

1018
01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:35,080
And they're talking to each
other.

1019
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:37,280
And every now and then, I'd see
one of them look around as so

1020
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:39,560
they're being, you know, seeing
if anybody's around them,

1021
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:44,400
hearing what they're saying.
And I felt inspired to go tell

1022
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,600
him of the experience that I had
with my wife.

1023
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:51,680
After that prayer, I said I'm
not going to do that because I

1024
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:53,960
still have my doubts as to
whether that was a legitimate

1025
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:54,960
thing.
Right, right.

1026
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,080
You were doubting your own
feelings, right?

1027
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,160
I was just healthy.
Right, I was doubting my own

1028
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,600
feelings and and even doubting
what my wife said.

1029
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,600
Right.
And I got the strong impression.

1030
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:12,920
Go share that with him.
I said no second time, 1/3 time,

1031
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:18,920
go share it with them.
And I was like, if these

1032
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,720
accusations happen to be true,
I'm going to really tick them

1033
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:23,960
off.
Yeah.

1034
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:30,800
But I went and did it anyway.
And in that group, or the two I

1035
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:34,080
told you about that I would
already befriended, there was

1036
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:36,880
Paul Thompson and Leland
Thompson.

1037
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:41,960
And gathered in that little
group was Kent Thompson, Hiram

1038
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,680
Thompson, Alan Thompson.
And I believe, I can't remember

1039
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,800
who the other one was.
OK, I says, brethren and I, I

1040
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:55,440
don't know if what I'm going to
say is upsetting or not to you

1041
01:04:55,440 --> 01:05:00,040
guys, but I feel very impressed
to share something that happened

1042
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,760
with me and my wife Sunday
night.

1043
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,520
And they said, oh, what was
that?

1044
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:11,000
We asked if your dad was guilty
or innocent to the charges

1045
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:14,760
brought against him.
And the answer that my wife

1046
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:19,160
uttered was my servant, Joseph
Thompson is innocent before my

1047
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:21,360
eyes, my judgements fallen as
accusers.

1048
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:29,240
I remember Paul Thompson hugged
me and said thank you.

1049
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:35,960
We needed to hear that.
Well, it became obvious to me

1050
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:39,920
that his sons that were there
didn't believe what was

1051
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:41,080
happening.
Right.

1052
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:46,560
And that's a good indicator
because generally speaking, men

1053
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:53,120
who have this propensity don't
just victimize one or two here

1054
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:55,560
and there.
They have pattern.

1055
01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:59,120
Right.
And it seems like these, at

1056
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:01,480
least these sons of his, didn't
believe that was true.

1057
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:04,120
Got you.
Gotcha.

1058
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,640
So this has to proceed.
You know everything I've been

1059
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:08,280
saying about these later
meetings.

1060
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:10,800
Right.
It's already kind of shaping my

1061
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:12,120
thinking.
Right.

1062
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,320
So by the time you get to
Mexico, you have these these

1063
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:15,800
experiences.
Yes.

1064
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:19,760
And then what?
What the gentleman the the Aztec

1065
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:24,680
gentleman tells you, he is just
a further witness of what you've

1066
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:28,360
already been getting.
And then Owen's own I'm

1067
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,560
dedicating of the temple.
Right.

1068
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:35,040
You know, just it, it just now
you, you know, some could argue

1069
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:37,240
that it's all confirmation bias,
right?

1070
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:40,960
And I could understand why, but
for me it was very real.

1071
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:43,240
Yeah, yeah.
OK.

1072
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:47,360
So let's talk about the actual
charges and then I want to go

1073
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:50,880
into that meeting that you and
Moroni have with with Joe

1074
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:55,240
Thompson.
So what exactly are the charges?

1075
01:06:56,400 --> 01:07:00,800
Now the charges the, the best I
can say speak to them.

1076
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:06,440
I know of at least three
allegations that were made by

1077
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:10,000
three of his children 2, two of
his daughters, one of his son.

1078
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,560
OK.
Now, I've I've heard that

1079
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:16,800
there's more than that, but
those are the only ones that I

1080
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:20,040
can concretely say were part of
it.

1081
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,920
And I'm not going to name names.
I just want to say that there's

1082
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:29,040
two daughters and a son, OK?
Because I think that these kind

1083
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,800
of things bring up complications
that affect people, that

1084
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:35,480
collateral damage that I don't
want to sure, you know, cause

1085
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:40,560
problems for.
But the allegations were made is

1086
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:43,440
that when they were very young
that their father abused them.

1087
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:47,320
Now, every sexually, right,
sexually, every one of these

1088
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:50,880
people that I'm talking to were
adults and older than me.

1089
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,240
Right.
And they were older than me, you

1090
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:58,080
know, I would say by close to 10
years.

1091
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:04,400
OK, how many kids did you have?
I was told he had 60.

1092
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:08,200
OK.
Now one thing I want to point

1093
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:12,040
out is all three of these came
from the same mother, OK?

1094
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:16,120
Whether that makes any
difference or not, I don't know.

1095
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,000
Does this mother stay with Job?
No.

1096
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:21,680
OK.
Does she leave during the time

1097
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:26,359
of the allegations or before?
I don't know, but I I tend to

1098
01:08:26,359 --> 01:08:29,279
think that it was around the
allegations.

1099
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:30,279
OK.
All right.

1100
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:32,479
I'm not positive though.
I don't know.

1101
01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:35,120
So these are adult children by
now.

1102
01:08:35,800 --> 01:08:41,880
OK, so they level these charges
of of sexual abuse of a child

1103
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:50,840
Anjo and the council seems to
take their word for it right

1104
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:53,160
away.
I don't know if it's right away.

1105
01:08:53,319 --> 01:08:59,399
OK.
I will say that whether and by

1106
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:02,279
the Council, I I don't think
that you have unanimity in that.

1107
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:05,000
OK as.
A matter of fact, I know you

1108
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:10,840
don't, but the consensus has
reached that for some reason or

1109
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:11,960
other they got a drop job.
OK.

1110
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:20,760
I want to talk about how how the
charges come to be right.

1111
01:09:21,399 --> 01:09:27,040
Why are they made during?
These three kids adulthood and

1112
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:35,200
not their childhood because what
was purported is that it was

1113
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:39,160
memories that they recovered.
Explain recovered.

1114
01:09:40,279 --> 01:09:43,359
Have you heard of the the
concept of repressed memories?

1115
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:46,200
Yes.
Well, that's what it has to do

1116
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:49,760
with repressed memories that
were later recovered.

1117
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:52,720
What was the mechanism for
recovery?

1118
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:54,240
Was it, were they through
dreams?

1119
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:58,560
Were they through, you know,
look, I just had had a young

1120
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:01,560
lady on who talked about
memories that were repressed,

1121
01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:03,040
that came to the forefront,
right?

1122
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,640
And she said they were triggered
by, of all things, going to a

1123
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:08,400
graduation.
Why?

1124
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:10,800
I don't know, but that's what
happened.

1125
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:13,440
Is it that sort of a deal or is
it something else?

1126
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:18,000
Are these things that they're
recovering or is it are there

1127
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:21,760
other methods by which these
memories are being extracted?

1128
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:24,480
I will answer that by telling
you what?

1129
01:10:26,000 --> 01:10:28,640
I will answer that by telling
you what one of the council

1130
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:30,080
members said to me.
OK.

1131
01:10:31,160 --> 01:10:34,320
And that happened to be Marvin
Allred, Owen's brother.

1132
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:35,400
Owen's brother?
Yes.

1133
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:41,840
I'll get into the circumstances
that led to me meeting with him

1134
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:43,920
later.
OK.

1135
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:52,000
But when I presented and I
actually have to, I have to give

1136
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:53,040
you the backdrop.
I'm sorry.

1137
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:54,600
Yeah, no, do it, Do it.
You're fine.

1138
01:10:56,280 --> 01:11:01,320
And this few years down the
line, OK, this you know, these

1139
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:04,520
meetings that I'm telling
telling you about happened 9394.

1140
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:15,880
Now we jump Fast forward to 1997
and I asked the elders quorum

1141
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:18,240
president for permission to
court his daughter.

1142
01:11:21,320 --> 01:11:23,760
He told me that he'll pray about
it.

1143
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:27,720
A week later, being the elders
quorum president and I'm in an

1144
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:30,040
elders quorum meeting.
He says he wants to talk to me

1145
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:32,800
during his announcements, which
he usually gave before the

1146
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:38,400
meeting started.
He said, I want to talk with

1147
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,720
Sean Anderson after meeting in
the library.

1148
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:46,640
Yeah, you know, before we start,
you know, after meeting.

1149
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:51,840
Well, when I went to that and I
had to give you more context, I,

1150
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:57,280
I had blown out my my right knee
and I and saw this on crutches

1151
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:00,760
during the time.
So at the time, I I couldn't

1152
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:04,160
drive myself to work because I
had this stiff brace that I

1153
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:07,920
couldn't bend my leg with.
And so I couldn't drive.

1154
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:12,880
So Alan Grover is is the man who
gave me a ride to that that

1155
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:16,720
elders meeting and they were
held at 7:00 AM on Sunday

1156
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:19,840
mornings.
OK so I attended the meeting and

1157
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:23,320
after the meeting I went into
the library and they came they

1158
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:25,680
followed in after me.
I was just in the library

1159
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:31,040
waiting for him and the elders
corn president is 2 counselors

1160
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:37,160
came in and they had a lot of
little kindergarten type seats

1161
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:41,240
and I was asked to take this a
seat in one of them.

1162
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:44,600
So you picture that.
Yeah.

1163
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:50,320
And then he pulled up another
seat, put his foot on it, you

1164
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:54,120
know, bending his knee, sure,
putting his elbow on his knee

1165
01:12:54,120 --> 01:13:00,440
and in his first under his skin
and and looked at me and says,

1166
01:13:00,640 --> 01:13:02,560
well, I'm going to just cut to
the chase shot.

1167
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:09,360
Brother Owen has asked us to
invite you not to attend any

1168
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:11,120
more priesthood meetings or
functions.

1169
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:14,480
Wow.
This is 1997.

1170
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:18,400
OK, so up to that point, had you
been vocal about defending Joe?

1171
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:22,080
Not much, no.
Just within the circles that I

1172
01:13:22,080 --> 01:13:23,960
knew felt safe.
Yeah.

1173
01:13:24,160 --> 01:13:24,920
Gotcha.
OK.

1174
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:32,920
And so I said why you'll have to
take that up with brother Rowan.

1175
01:13:35,480 --> 01:13:37,480
And I says, I'm sure you have
some idea.

1176
01:13:38,440 --> 01:13:40,800
I mean, the week before I had
just asked him for the

1177
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:42,120
permission to court his
daughter.

1178
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:45,760
Right.
And it's, I don't think it's a

1179
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:49,520
coincidence that I come in and
I'm told that I'm out, right?

1180
01:13:51,840 --> 01:13:55,280
And he says, well, we feel that
your loyalties lie with Joseph

1181
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:59,520
Thompson.
I says, and how do you ascertain

1182
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:02,640
that?
Well, don't you?

1183
01:14:04,280 --> 01:14:06,720
I says, I'll be honest with you.
I don't believe he's guilty, if

1184
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:10,320
that's what you're asking.
But have you ever heard me say

1185
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:13,560
anything disruptive in class or
can you point to anybody here?

1186
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:15,960
I tried to convert to that idea,
right?

1187
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:20,160
He says, well, no.
Then on what basis are you

1188
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:25,480
removing me other than Brother
Owen just saying to get rid of

1189
01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:29,200
me?
And I says, besides that, don't

1190
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:30,960
you think what you said was an
oxymoron?

1191
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:35,440
I invite you not to.
And and he said, what do you

1192
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:37,600
mean?
I says invite me not to attend.

1193
01:14:38,360 --> 01:14:40,440
That's a classic definition of
an oxymoron.

1194
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:45,800
Right.
All they could say was you have

1195
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:47,120
to take that up with Brother
Owen.

1196
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:52,000
But the oldest current president
says to me, look, if I think

1197
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:55,280
something and Brother Owen
thinks otherwise, I think he's

1198
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:57,080
the man with the keys.
He must know better.

1199
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:02,640
And I said, well, I'm not like
you.

1200
01:15:04,240 --> 01:15:08,200
Yeah, especially when I see
things that don't seem to be

1201
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:12,040
going in the same direction,
making sense, making sense to

1202
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:14,040
me.
I reserve the right to have my

1203
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:16,480
own judgement, right?
That's what I said.

1204
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:21,160
I don't think they they thought
that I would actually go and

1205
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:25,360
talk to Owen, right?
I went home.

1206
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:31,080
I went home after after that
encounter.

1207
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:34,680
I didn't go to the sacrament
meeting following because I was

1208
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:43,960
told not to and and so I called
brother Marvin Allred, who lived

1209
01:15:43,960 --> 01:15:50,560
down and in a rocky Ridge just
South of Santa Quin, Utah.

1210
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:55,120
I called him because I had
established a good rapport with

1211
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:59,040
him when I on my trip in Mexico
with him right in a few years

1212
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:03,240
before.
And I asked him if I could have,

1213
01:16:03,400 --> 01:16:05,840
you know, come talk to him.
He says, sure, What what about?

1214
01:16:05,840 --> 01:16:11,040
I says, I'd rather tell you when
I get there, but it's important.

1215
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:13,160
I really think I really need to
talk with you.

1216
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:17,160
Said OK.
And he says, and I can't

1217
01:16:17,160 --> 01:16:18,680
remember.
He said 3:00.

1218
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:20,920
Does 3:00 work for you?
Sure.

1219
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:26,480
And it was 3 or 4:00, but it was
kind of mid to late afternoon,

1220
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:31,680
right?
So I drove down and it was in

1221
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:35,240
the fall, I remember it being
kind of getting kind of nippy

1222
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:42,240
outside, right?
So I drove down and but before

1223
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:46,400
that I I wrote down what
happened between the elders,

1224
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:48,520
corn presidency and myself.
Right.

1225
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:55,280
And when I got there, I knocked
on the door and one of his wives

1226
01:16:55,280 --> 01:17:00,240
came to the door and as how can
I help you and says I have a

1227
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:04,880
meeting with Brother Marvin.
She goes, oh, let me go see.

1228
01:17:05,480 --> 01:17:07,560
And then she comes back.
She says he's expecting you in

1229
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:13,360
his in his office.
So I walked in and he was there

1230
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:16,800
in the office waiting for me.
And Brother Marvin.

1231
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:19,080
I have to say that I really
liked this about him.

1232
01:17:19,080 --> 01:17:21,680
He was a very affectionate,
loving man.

1233
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:24,920
Right.
And as I walked in, he stood up

1234
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:28,720
and he shook my hand with both
hands.

1235
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:30,800
And he says, how can I help you,
dear?

1236
01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:36,720
And I said, I'm going to take a
seat.

1237
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,240
And he goes, yeah.
So I sat down.

1238
01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:42,520
He sat down at his desk, and I
handed.

1239
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:46,040
I says, if you would read this,
then we can proceed to talk.

1240
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:50,400
So I handed them the little
synopsis that I wrote it, what

1241
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:53,240
took place.
He read it.

1242
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:57,560
And he started shaking his head.
And then he put his hand over

1243
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:02,840
his, over his brow and started
saying, shaking his head and

1244
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:04,200
saying, we're losing our
strength.

1245
01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:07,640
We're losing our strength.
I said, what do you mean?

1246
01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:14,800
Brother Marvin said.
Brother Joe, Brother Joe's sons

1247
01:18:15,120 --> 01:18:18,640
are some of the strongest boys
we have in this group.

1248
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:21,600
And I don't mean strong as in
physical, but stronger in the

1249
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:24,360
faith.
And he has one of the best

1250
01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:27,960
retention rates of his children
in this in the fullness of the

1251
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:32,000
gospel, he says.
And many of his children have

1252
01:18:32,240 --> 01:18:37,200
entered plural marriage.
And because of what happened

1253
01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:40,320
with the controversy over their
father, we're losing a few of

1254
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:43,840
them.
And now we're kicking you out.

1255
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:46,360
And he says, and I've always
thought that you were strong,

1256
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:56,320
and I don't understand it.
And then he said I worked

1257
01:18:56,440 --> 01:19:00,760
intimately close with Joe
Thompson for 40 years and never

1258
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:03,400
once have I known him to be an
immoral man.

1259
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:07,560
So.
So even even Owen Allred's

1260
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:09,880
brother Marvin is expressing
some hesitancy.

1261
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:12,320
Yes.
And so when he said that, I

1262
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:15,680
said, are you telling me you
don't believe Brother Joe's

1263
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:18,840
guilty of these charges?
He says absolutely not.

1264
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:22,760
That was honestly, that was a
surprise to me.

1265
01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:25,240
Yeah, because it's it's it's
Owen Allred's.

1266
01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:27,840
Brother right his.
Brother and he was there with

1267
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:31,080
the council when they made their
announcement and he stood behind

1268
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:34,320
Brother Owen supporting him and
the decision they made on

1269
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:37,000
Brother Joe.
And Marvin was probably there

1270
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:39,840
when when Ruin was running the
show, so to speak, right?

1271
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:41,920
I mean.
Well, Marvin was there from the

1272
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:51,880
day Joseph Messers the month.
OK, now at that point I said, so

1273
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:57,040
you don't believe the charges
brought against him in reference

1274
01:19:57,040 --> 01:19:59,400
to child molestation?
He goes absolutely not.

1275
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:04,000
What are your reasons why?
Why don't you believe him?

1276
01:20:05,160 --> 01:20:11,200
And then he said, well, his I
believe those girls were

1277
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:15,320
disturbed.
What do you mean by that?

1278
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:19,920
Their testimony?
He says their testimonies were

1279
01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:25,560
brought out through hypnosis.
Oh, OK.

1280
01:20:25,920 --> 01:20:30,160
All right.
So, so the whole, you know, the

1281
01:20:30,160 --> 01:20:35,920
hypnotherapy regressive, OK.
So he said that.

1282
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:39,000
He says their testimonies were
brought out through hypnosis.

1283
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:41,040
And he says, I don't know about
you, Sean, but I don't think

1284
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:45,000
that that is a reliable way of
determining witnesses.

1285
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:48,520
No, there's so much that can go
on with that, right?

1286
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:53,080
And look, I've never done it
myself, but I know some people

1287
01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:58,080
who have who later have said
that they had memories of things

1288
01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:01,600
that weren't, weren't legit,
right?

1289
01:21:02,280 --> 01:21:05,160
And look, I want to say this,
repressed memory, I do think is

1290
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:07,720
a thing, right?
I think I've seen personally,

1291
01:21:07,720 --> 01:21:11,520
I've seen people who endure A
trauma who as a coping

1292
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:13,320
mechanism, shove that down
South.

1293
01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:15,560
Repressed memories I got no
problems with.

1294
01:21:16,040 --> 01:21:21,440
However, when you start getting
into regressive hypnotherapy,

1295
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:25,600
you start getting into some
really dicey things, right?

1296
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:29,040
And look, Joe Thompson's not the
only guy that this happened to.

1297
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:33,960
Hugh Nibley's daughter accused
him of molesting her while under

1298
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:38,440
hypno, regressive therapy.
And so it is.

1299
01:21:38,440 --> 01:21:40,520
It is a science.
It's, I can't even call it

1300
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:43,600
science.
It's a pseudoscience that I

1301
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:47,480
don't think has, I don't quote
me on this, I'd have to Fact

1302
01:21:47,480 --> 01:21:53,320
Check it, but I can't think of 1
case where repressed, you know,

1303
01:21:53,320 --> 01:22:01,040
where, where hypnotic regression
was used to any efficacy in a

1304
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:05,040
court of law because it is so
suspect in how it happened.

1305
01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:09,480
So each one of these girls, each
each one of the three level the

1306
01:22:09,480 --> 01:22:14,360
charge because these memories
were retrieved from

1307
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:17,680
hypnotherapy.
That's that's what he said.

1308
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:19,880
Wow.
And Sean, just for

1309
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:23,760
clarification, that was 1997.
And then you don't end up you,

1310
01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:27,680
you don't end up leaving the
Allred group till 1999, so about

1311
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:31,720
two years later.
OK, now, now, I'm not going to

1312
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:34,680
add to or take from that.
That was the conversation I had

1313
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:35,640
with him.
Right.

1314
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:41,320
To the best of my memory right
now, Now we have to.

1315
01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:44,480
That kind of gives you the
nature of the allegations made

1316
01:22:44,480 --> 01:22:45,920
against him.
Right.

1317
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:50,800
So now let's Fast forward, go
back, go back in time, back to

1318
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:55,280
90, 93, early 94.
I can't.

1319
01:22:55,280 --> 01:22:57,200
Remember when you're about to go
talk to to Joe.

1320
01:22:57,480 --> 01:22:59,840
Right now, when did you say
Owen's birthday was?

1321
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:04,440
It was January 15th.
OK so they were pre celebrating

1322
01:23:04,440 --> 01:23:05,320
his birthday.
Right.

1323
01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:08,160
Which would make sense if it was
late November, early December.

1324
01:23:08,160 --> 01:23:09,880
Yeah, you're going to do that.
It's close.

1325
01:23:09,880 --> 01:23:11,440
Right.
And they're celebrating his 80th

1326
01:23:11,480 --> 01:23:13,240
birthday.
And if I'm don't, if I recall,

1327
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:15,720
he's 1/19/14.
Yes, that is correct.

1328
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:18,800
So yeah, that that makes sense.
OK.

1329
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:24,680
But anyway, I made the
determination to go talk to Joe

1330
01:23:24,680 --> 01:23:25,920
Thompson.
You and Marona.

1331
01:23:26,480 --> 01:23:30,280
Yes, because I talked to Marona
about what happened in Mexico,

1332
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:37,720
right?
And, and so we decided, and

1333
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:41,600
Morona was always one that was
quick to say, the spirit tells

1334
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:43,440
me we should do it right, you
know?

1335
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:46,560
And I learned to trust Morona on
that because he usually is

1336
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:47,960
pretty good that way.
Right.

1337
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:54,920
And so we went.
Before we went, you know, like I

1338
01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:57,560
said before, I talked to Paul
Thompson and he said his father

1339
01:23:57,560 --> 01:24:01,800
is out doing a house blessing,
and so I'll talk to him

1340
01:24:02,480 --> 01:24:05,480
afterwards.
Then I get a call from Paul.

1341
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:07,840
It's already 10:00.
And he got a call.

1342
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:09,000
He says he wants to meet with
you.

1343
01:24:09,720 --> 01:24:12,640
OK, It's 10:00 PM, Mind you,
right?

1344
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:15,320
I thought, I thought he was
going to set an appointment for

1345
01:24:15,320 --> 01:24:20,080
later, right?
So I said, so when do you want

1346
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:21,040
us to come over?
He was.

1347
01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:25,480
Well, now would be a good time.
OK, he's come over to my place

1348
01:24:25,480 --> 01:24:26,760
and I'll show you how to get to
his.

1349
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:29,000
See, at the time, I didn't even
know where Joe lived.

1350
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:31,440
I knew he lived.
He was, you know, you had a

1351
01:24:31,440 --> 01:24:35,440
house somewhere in Harriman.
He had one in, in Lehigh and he

1352
01:24:35,440 --> 01:24:42,840
also had one in Harriman.
And so Moroni and I get out, you

1353
01:24:42,840 --> 01:24:46,320
know, get out and leave and it's
late and our wives stay behind.

1354
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:49,840
They stayed.
And Needless to say, I was going

1355
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:53,200
to say Moroni and, and his wife
Martha spent the night at our

1356
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:57,000
place, right.
But anyway, we, we drove, we

1357
01:24:57,000 --> 01:25:02,240
drove off and went to Harriman,
over to Paul's place and Paul

1358
01:25:02,240 --> 01:25:04,680
says, OK, let me call him.
He says he's ready for us.

1359
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:08,240
So we then go up to apparently
he didn't live too far.

1360
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:09,600
I was just up the road a little
bit.

1361
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:13,920
Knock on the door and sister
Shirley Thompson opens the door

1362
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:15,920
and he's.
Oh, hi guys, how are you?

1363
01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:19,840
She's always a very, I would say
very jovial person.

1364
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:24,160
OK, She was heavy, sad, but she
had a very jolly expression.

1365
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:26,320
She was, she was quite a
sweetheart.

1366
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:30,640
That was Shirley Thompson, he
says.

1367
01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:32,160
Oh, Joe's looking forward to
talking.

1368
01:25:34,120 --> 01:25:36,720
So I felt, oh, I guess it's not
an imposition.

1369
01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:39,640
Right.
So she takes us back to his

1370
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:44,760
bedroom and if I recall it, my
memory might be failing me here,

1371
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:47,320
but it almost seemed like he had
a hospital bed in his room.

1372
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:54,120
And we showed up and she had set
2 folding chairs on the wall

1373
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:56,760
just opposite from the foot of
his bed.

1374
01:25:57,560 --> 01:26:01,920
And that's where Marona and I
were invited to sit.

1375
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:07,640
I remember Brother Joe, you
know, he'd been having a lot of

1376
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:14,720
health issues, but he sat up and
he was in his undies and he

1377
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:17,480
skidded up and sat at the edge
of the bed and started talking

1378
01:26:17,480 --> 01:26:25,440
to us.
And if I, if I recall, we, he

1379
01:26:25,440 --> 01:26:28,080
says, what do you guys need to
know?

1380
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:31,920
I says, well, first of all, are
you guilty of the allegations

1381
01:26:31,920 --> 01:26:35,320
that were made against you?
And he said categorically not

1382
01:26:35,320 --> 01:26:38,880
guilty.
There's no hesitation there.

1383
01:26:39,880 --> 01:26:43,800
I, I, I rather really like that
answer, categorically not

1384
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:48,800
guilty.
And he says, but somehow I think

1385
01:26:48,800 --> 01:26:51,040
that we, we should be talking
about something else.

1386
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:55,280
And then he began to elaborate
on the fullness of the

1387
01:26:55,280 --> 01:27:01,160
priesthood, and he talked about
his experience of how Joseph

1388
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:04,120
Muster did that for them.
Interesting.

1389
01:27:05,960 --> 01:27:08,840
And the circumstances
surrounding it and talking to us

1390
01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:14,240
about how vitally important this
ordinance was to the Restoration

1391
01:27:14,240 --> 01:27:16,920
and to the world.
Right.

1392
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:22,040
I can tell you this being there.
That is, he lit up.

1393
01:27:24,000 --> 01:27:25,840
We didn't leave his house till
3:00 AM.

1394
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:33,480
Wow.
Then I can tell you that aside

1395
01:27:33,480 --> 01:27:36,560
from the Lord Himself and you
know, through visions or dreams

1396
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:42,400
or anything, I had never been so
edified by a man in my life.

1397
01:27:44,400 --> 01:27:45,640
Did Marone?
I feel the same way.

1398
01:27:45,640 --> 01:27:49,160
Yes.
And we both there made the

1399
01:27:49,160 --> 01:27:52,520
determination that we would
defend Joe Thompson's character.

1400
01:27:53,440 --> 01:27:55,320
Knowing full well what that
meant, right?

1401
01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:58,120
That that that was going to put
you at odds.

1402
01:27:58,360 --> 01:28:01,920
Now, yes, I wasn't active
proactive about it, but if asked

1403
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:04,160
the questions, I would say it
right?

1404
01:28:05,360 --> 01:28:09,480
That's that was my I think
Marone, I was a little bolder

1405
01:28:09,480 --> 01:28:13,240
than I was in that right because
Marone, I went and talked to his

1406
01:28:13,240 --> 01:28:20,040
dad and to his father-in-law.
That would be PED Jessup and Mel

1407
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:24,760
Sullivan, and both of us
cautioned us about taking a

1408
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:26,320
stand against the Lord's
anointed.

1409
01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:31,960
Wow.
But both of those men on their

1410
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:36,840
own, Brother Ted decided he
wanted to go talk to Joe too,

1411
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:44,200
because Joe had been very
helpful in his journey, right?

1412
01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:50,360
And Brother Mel had remembered a
note that he took called the

1413
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:57,560
oath of brotherhood that they
did well, I don't know if it was

1414
01:28:57,560 --> 01:29:00,040
administered by brother ruling
or brother own according to his

1415
01:29:00,040 --> 01:29:01,840
account.
I that detail slips me.

1416
01:29:01,840 --> 01:29:05,760
But they were put under that
oath that I will not believe any

1417
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:12,520
derogatory report of any of you,
brother, unless I talk with you

1418
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:15,720
and receive that perfect witness
or something.

1419
01:29:15,720 --> 01:29:18,240
That effect, right.
For I believe you to be men of

1420
01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:19,160
God.
And this you know.

1421
01:29:19,200 --> 01:29:19,920
You know that?
Yeah.

1422
01:29:20,120 --> 01:29:23,000
Yeah.
And he said that he hadn't

1423
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:25,080
honored that, so he wanted to go
talk to Brother Joe.

1424
01:29:26,960 --> 01:29:29,840
Yes, he should, right?
He should covenant and he's

1425
01:29:29,840 --> 01:29:31,520
going to, he's going to exercise
it.

1426
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:34,920
Well, he did that and came out
of it Brother Joe's innocent.

1427
01:29:35,640 --> 01:29:37,960
Wow.
Brother Ted and talking to Joe

1428
01:29:37,960 --> 01:29:40,640
for a different reason came out
of it with Joe's.

1429
01:29:40,680 --> 01:29:46,080
Joe's innocent.
Now a lot of people assumed that

1430
01:29:46,080 --> 01:29:48,640
I and Moroni were following Ted
and Mel.

1431
01:29:49,480 --> 01:29:51,880
Which isn't the case.
They were kind of coming up with

1432
01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:53,760
their own conclusions after you
guys.

1433
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:55,560
After us we were.
Took the initiative.

1434
01:29:56,080 --> 01:30:00,240
You know, Brother Joe Thompson's
daughter told me that I was in

1435
01:30:00,240 --> 01:30:03,800
fact the first person outside
the Thompson family that made a

1436
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:08,680
stand for him.
I always thought it was another

1437
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:12,600
man by the name of Ken Jepsen,
but she said no, You, you

1438
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:14,400
preceded him a little by a
little bit.

1439
01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:19,960
I won't mention names of who
these daughters and sons are

1440
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:22,400
because, right, you know, the
things get common.

1441
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:24,560
We want to protect their their
their privacy.

1442
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:28,240
Right.
But anyway, if they listen to

1443
01:30:28,240 --> 01:30:30,080
this podcast, I'm sure they'll
know who they are.

1444
01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:43,840
But anyway, so going back in
time, as I said, I at this

1445
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:49,040
priesthood meeting, I made the
this that I shared the

1446
01:30:49,040 --> 01:30:53,280
experience with some of the
Thompson sons of what happened.

1447
01:30:54,440 --> 01:30:56,200
And that much happened for a
little while.

1448
01:30:57,240 --> 01:31:00,240
But getting close to April, I
get a call from his daughter,

1449
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:03,080
brother Thompson's, Joe
Thompson's daughter.

1450
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:06,440
And she's influential by the
way, that's all I can I'm going

1451
01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:09,880
to say.
And she said you've been invited

1452
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:12,440
to attend the solemn assembly
down in Mesa.

1453
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:15,120
My my dad explicitly wanted you
to go there.

1454
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:17,800
Joe Thompson was following this
solemn assembly.

1455
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:20,200
Yes, In Arizona.
OK.

1456
01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:23,120
Now, are you comfortable saying
whereabouts in Arizona?

1457
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:26,040
Mesa.
OK, you may have said that.

1458
01:31:26,040 --> 01:31:27,640
I missed it.
Probably it was, it was actually

1459
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:34,880
posted by by Ted Jessup, because
they had, you know, about six

1460
01:31:34,880 --> 01:31:36,200
months before or something like
that.

1461
01:31:36,200 --> 01:31:39,360
They had moved down there or a
little bit before that.

1462
01:31:39,760 --> 01:31:42,000
OK, now, now help me understand
this, right.

1463
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:49,560
And I only asked this for for
context, did the AUB have have

1464
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:51,720
branches down there in Arizona
where they were at?

1465
01:31:51,760 --> 01:31:52,800
Oh, OK.
All right.

1466
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:56,040
They had one.
They had one in Surprise, AZ OK,

1467
01:31:56,040 --> 01:31:58,040
All right.
Mainly Mexican people that came

1468
01:31:58,040 --> 01:32:00,080
up from the colony.
Got you 10, four, OK.

1469
01:32:00,960 --> 01:32:07,720
But brother Ted Jessup moved to
to Mesa, Arizona for a job.

1470
01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:10,360
Opportunity was one thing, and
he also felt impressed to be

1471
01:32:10,360 --> 01:32:11,200
there.
OK.

1472
01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:14,320
So at this time when everybody's
going down, with the exception

1473
01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:18,680
of Joe obviously, is everybody
still in reasonably good

1474
01:32:18,680 --> 01:32:21,840
standing with the AU, with with
with the all red group at that

1475
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:25,320
point?
When you say everyone, the only

1476
01:32:25,320 --> 01:32:27,880
person that moved down at the
time was Ted and his family.

1477
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:31,360
No, I I mean, it's time of this,
this solemn assembly.

1478
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:35,240
That's that's what I mean, OK,
Because everyone else that

1479
01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:36,880
attended that was still living
in Utah.

1480
01:32:37,600 --> 01:32:39,440
OK.
But but, but everyone that

1481
01:32:39,440 --> 01:32:43,040
attended that was, were they
still on good in good terms with

1482
01:32:43,040 --> 01:32:46,200
it with the Allred group?
Yeah, you could say that.

1483
01:32:46,200 --> 01:32:47,120
OK.
All right.

1484
01:32:47,360 --> 01:32:52,880
This would have been in the
spring of 94, OK, but some of

1485
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:59,720
assemblies Brother Joe called.
We were there to meet in on a

1486
01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:02,400
weekend.
The first day that we arrived

1487
01:33:02,400 --> 01:33:06,880
was just basically visiting, you
know, having dinner, visiting,

1488
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:10,680
talking, but told we're going to
wake up really early in the

1489
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:14,360
morning, like 3 or 4 in the
morning, and we're going to

1490
01:33:14,520 --> 01:33:16,240
expect you to be dressed in your
robes.

1491
01:33:17,320 --> 01:33:20,640
Then we're going to have a some
assembly where we're going to do

1492
01:33:20,640 --> 01:33:23,480
a Sacramento feast where they
serve plenty of bread and plenty

1493
01:33:23,480 --> 01:33:28,720
of wine.
And that Brother Joe conducted

1494
01:33:28,720 --> 01:33:32,240
the meeting.
It was kind of, you could say

1495
01:33:32,240 --> 01:33:37,000
almost dual conducted with Ted
Jessup and Brother Joe.

1496
01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:40,320
It was Ted Jessup kind of
starting it up and then Brother

1497
01:33:40,320 --> 01:33:45,240
Joe taking it over.
But I remember one of the first

1498
01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:51,440
things he did is he rehearsed
all the signs and tokens.

1499
01:33:53,280 --> 01:33:56,680
I'm sorry, the signs and
penalties and everything and an

1500
01:33:56,680 --> 01:34:02,280
explanation.
And then he began to talk about

1501
01:34:02,280 --> 01:34:06,040
how he said that after the
accusations and him being

1502
01:34:06,040 --> 01:34:08,840
dropped by the council, that he
was resigned to the idea of just

1503
01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:14,560
living out the rest of his life
and going home, allowing the

1504
01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:17,280
group to continue doing what
they're doing without him.

1505
01:34:19,120 --> 01:34:20,520
That he's pretty at peace with
that.

1506
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:26,560
And he says he was at peace with
that until you heard rumors of

1507
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:30,720
Brother Joe going, Brother Owen
going back on the temple work.

1508
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:41,200
So that really bugged Joe.
Yes, and then he told us why it

1509
01:34:41,200 --> 01:34:44,000
bugged him, because he shared at
the time, he shared with all of

1510
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:48,320
us there a revelation that the
council had received in 1981.

1511
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:57,560
Now going back to 1992, Bill
Baird shared that same

1512
01:34:57,560 --> 01:35:02,200
revelation with me.
OK, so it wasn't new to me, but

1513
01:35:02,200 --> 01:35:03,720
it was new to some of the men
there.

1514
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:06,320
So it was a second witness to
you in the first time for a

1515
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:07,720
minute for most of the other
guys.

1516
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:10,800
And what, what was the contents
of that revelation?

1517
01:35:11,720 --> 01:35:14,040
I'm going to paraphrase it to
the best of my memory.

1518
01:35:15,880 --> 01:35:21,520
You for a copy of it.
Rona Jessup I'm sure has a copy

1519
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:24,920
of it, so you could go back to
it and Fact Check me on that.

1520
01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:28,720
No, I, yeah.
But basically, if I recall, this

1521
01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:34,800
is where the content of it says
this is the word of this is the

1522
01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:42,640
word of Lord and to you brethren
and priesthood council, it is in

1523
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:48,840
regards to it says in regards to
the ordinances of my house, it

1524
01:35:48,840 --> 01:35:53,040
is your, it is your due.
Basically, it is your

1525
01:35:53,040 --> 01:35:56,400
responsibility and duty to keep
alive all the laws and

1526
01:35:56,400 --> 01:35:59,480
ordinances of the gospel,
including all the ordinances of

1527
01:35:59,480 --> 01:36:04,160
my house, which I can no longer
accept in my house, right.

1528
01:36:06,760 --> 01:36:10,560
Do not become proud in your
callings lest you be destroyed

1529
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:14,480
in the Spirit.
Approach me often dressed in the

1530
01:36:14,480 --> 01:36:17,160
robes of the holy priesthood,
and I will answer all of your

1531
01:36:17,160 --> 01:36:22,280
rage righteous questions.
Even so, I am Jesus Christ, who

1532
01:36:22,280 --> 01:36:25,600
was crucified for the sins of
the world.

1533
01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:32,000
Amen.
Now let me ask you, how do you

1534
01:36:32,000 --> 01:36:32,760
interpret that?
And.

1535
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:38,000
That that the Lord's been
waiting a while for somebody.

1536
01:36:38,280 --> 01:36:41,320
To I forgot to mention I have
waited long for you to approach

1537
01:36:41,320 --> 01:36:44,520
me in this manner.
Right, I forgot to mention that.

1538
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:51,640
He, he's been waiting, right?
He's been wanting somebody to

1539
01:36:51,640 --> 01:36:55,880
come ask about these things.
And now that that they have went

1540
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:59,200
and asked about it, the Lord's
telling him, come back in your

1541
01:36:59,200 --> 01:37:02,840
robes and continue to ask these
questions and I'll reveal these

1542
01:37:02,840 --> 01:37:05,040
things to you.
But what do you get from the

1543
01:37:05,040 --> 01:37:07,240
very first part?
It is your duty and

1544
01:37:07,240 --> 01:37:13,120
responsibility to do what is you
keep alive all the laws and

1545
01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:16,480
ordinances of my gospel,
including all the ordinances of

1546
01:37:16,480 --> 01:37:20,080
my house.
That that that is, that is a a,

1547
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:23,440
A and.
And the Mexico Temple wasn't

1548
01:37:23,440 --> 01:37:24,840
built at that time, right?
No.

1549
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:26,560
So there neither was the one
they have.

1550
01:37:27,000 --> 01:37:34,200
In left to me, that is a a
mandate to get started, to get

1551
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:36,720
started, right?
It's time to go forward with

1552
01:37:36,720 --> 01:37:39,800
temple work.
Now notice how he said is your

1553
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:43,520
duty and responsibility.
And if I recall and but don't

1554
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:47,560
hold me to this, I think it said
privilege too, but don't don't

1555
01:37:47,560 --> 01:37:56,320
hold me to that.
Sure, but anyway, he reiterated

1556
01:37:56,320 --> 01:38:01,080
that to us, saying that the Lord
and he says that's why he

1557
01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:02,800
started pushing for the building
of a temple.

1558
01:38:03,920 --> 01:38:06,560
So Joe was the one that started
to push for the building of a

1559
01:38:06,560 --> 01:38:07,960
temple.
It was him and Bill Baird.

1560
01:38:08,240 --> 01:38:12,880
OK.
Bill Baird, the gentleman from

1561
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:13,840
England.
No.

1562
01:38:14,040 --> 01:38:16,480
OK, I think it's someone.
Else, no, Bill Baird lived in

1563
01:38:16,480 --> 01:38:22,200
Centerville, OK, in Centerville,
UT, and if I recall, Bill Baird

1564
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:25,080
had been a worker in the in the
temple in the church at one

1565
01:38:25,080 --> 01:38:25,840
point.
OK.

1566
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:30,040
And he converted to
fundamentalism.

1567
01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:38,120
Right.
But anyway, so the next thing I

1568
01:38:38,120 --> 01:38:44,400
can say here is he was talking.
He basically reiterated at that

1569
01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:48,680
that that solemn assembly.
He reiterated what he had been

1570
01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:53,320
talking with Morona and I
privately elaborated on it.

1571
01:38:53,680 --> 01:38:55,840
Right.
And he had his sons.

1572
01:38:56,800 --> 01:39:00,000
He he had a couple of sons
there, Rob Thompson, Ken

1573
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:08,280
Thompson, Dennis Thompson were
there and, and he would have

1574
01:39:08,280 --> 01:39:10,600
them get up and do explanations
right.

1575
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:13,880
And they're really good at it.
You could tell he did his

1576
01:39:13,880 --> 01:39:16,160
homework in teaching his boys.
Right.

1577
01:39:19,400 --> 01:39:21,880
And I remember some of the other
brethren that were there were so

1578
01:39:21,880 --> 01:39:25,000
blown away.
Wow, that was that was heavy

1579
01:39:25,000 --> 01:39:27,240
stuff.
That was I never knew.

1580
01:39:27,680 --> 01:39:30,440
And what I found interesting of
these guys have been in the all

1581
01:39:30,440 --> 01:39:33,640
red group since either the 60s
and 70s.

1582
01:39:34,240 --> 01:39:36,160
Right.
And a lot of this was new to

1583
01:39:36,160 --> 01:39:40,040
them, right?
Moroni and I were just newbies,

1584
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:43,400
and we were already introduced
into a lot of this stuff, right?

1585
01:39:43,720 --> 01:39:47,760
Even before them, which I always
found serendipitous.

1586
01:39:47,760 --> 01:39:51,320
Yeah.
And I've often wondered why,

1587
01:39:51,320 --> 01:39:54,000
why, why was I so fresh in the
group?

1588
01:39:54,480 --> 01:39:56,880
And I'm drawn into this.
Right.

1589
01:39:57,040 --> 01:40:02,640
Stuff head of stuff, right?
Anyway, that's for the Lord to

1590
01:40:02,640 --> 01:40:05,520
answer.
I don't know there's reasons

1591
01:40:05,520 --> 01:40:10,640
behind it.
But because I often felt like I

1592
01:40:10,640 --> 01:40:13,640
had to pay my dues in this group
before a lot, you know, right.

1593
01:40:13,880 --> 01:40:20,080
Yeah.
But anyway, to that was he made

1594
01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:23,320
a statement that he said,
brethren, I don't want to sound,

1595
01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:29,360
he says.
I don't want to sound overly

1596
01:40:29,400 --> 01:40:32,840
presumptuous in making this
statement, he says.

1597
01:40:32,840 --> 01:40:37,440
But I feel that the fate of the
world lies with me at this.

1598
01:40:37,440 --> 01:40:42,960
Moment so he's feeling he's
feeling the pressure to magnify

1599
01:40:42,960 --> 01:40:46,640
that calling so right by by
making sure that that authority

1600
01:40:47,240 --> 01:40:49,400
gets accessed along to somebody
worthy.

1601
01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:54,480
Right, He says.
The Church is not perpetuating

1602
01:40:54,480 --> 01:40:58,800
this amongst it, says it.
To my knowledge, if any, it's

1603
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:04,720
only among general authorities
will we perpetuate it.

1604
01:41:07,240 --> 01:41:09,920
Let's see.
He said we'll be perpetuated and

1605
01:41:09,920 --> 01:41:14,400
up to now, he says I was more
than content with just living

1606
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:17,480
out the rest of my life doing,
knowing that I did the best I

1607
01:41:17,480 --> 01:41:21,960
could and going back home and
meeting my maker.

1608
01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:28,880
But when I heard word that
Brother Owen was taking backward

1609
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:32,000
steps on temple work and these
other things.

1610
01:41:32,200 --> 01:41:35,640
After their relation.
Yeah, he says.

1611
01:41:35,640 --> 01:41:41,120
I feel like I have no choice but
to see to it that this work

1612
01:41:41,120 --> 01:41:45,320
continues.
Whether Owen and the council

1613
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:51,160
will perpetuate this, I don't
know, but he says I don't have

1614
01:41:51,160 --> 01:41:54,280
confidence that they will.
Right.

1615
01:41:56,440 --> 01:42:01,040
Now he talked about the
importance of that he didn't

1616
01:42:01,040 --> 01:42:04,840
offer us or ordinances at that
time, right.

1617
01:42:07,960 --> 01:42:10,440
Well, the meeting, you know,
several people spoke.

1618
01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:15,520
Brother Ted was very gregarious
and his and his talks and very

1619
01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:18,840
forthright that this is
something we have to pursue.

1620
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:23,000
You know, brethren, to tell me
back Brother Joe on this, you

1621
01:42:23,000 --> 01:42:28,480
know, he was talking that way
and that was I didn't know

1622
01:42:28,480 --> 01:42:32,040
enough to really.
Understand what's happening,

1623
01:42:32,040 --> 01:42:35,080
Yeah.
Yeah, but I remember thinking

1624
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:39,560
the spirit behind Brother Joe is
very strong and feels really

1625
01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:40,920
good to me.
Right.

1626
01:42:44,400 --> 01:42:47,160
And someone said, well, maybe we
should.

1627
01:42:49,120 --> 01:42:51,560
Someone said, what about the
high baptism?

1628
01:42:51,560 --> 01:42:52,960
Is that something that people
are?

1629
01:42:53,400 --> 01:42:56,240
And Brother Joe took that as an
opportunity to say, can you all

1630
01:42:56,240 --> 01:42:58,080
get behind receiving the high
baptism?

1631
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:02,800
And all of us said, yes, he
goes, well, good, we can do that

1632
01:43:02,800 --> 01:43:06,000
much.
Wow.

1633
01:43:06,680 --> 01:43:10,240
And then brother Ted got on the
following day, brother Ted got

1634
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:13,080
on the phone with his, I don't
know if it was a brother-in-law

1635
01:43:13,080 --> 01:43:16,120
or a cousin of his wife.
See the brother or a cousin or

1636
01:43:16,120 --> 01:43:19,680
something like a family member
of his wife on his Mexican.

1637
01:43:19,760 --> 01:43:22,520
You know his wife is Mexican and
it was.

1638
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:24,680
Right.
Well, he happened to have a

1639
01:43:24,680 --> 01:43:27,760
swimming pool in his backyard.
OK.

1640
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:32,760
And he was able to arrange it,
arrange it.

1641
01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:35,840
And so all of us got our high
baptism in a swimming pool in

1642
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:39,720
Minnesota, Arizona in 1994.
Wow.

1643
01:43:41,640 --> 01:43:45,040
But anyway, after the meeting, I
remember we had some leisure

1644
01:43:45,040 --> 01:43:51,000
time and and then we, my brother
came by to visit with me, my

1645
01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:52,400
brother George, who lived in
Mesa.

1646
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:55,440
And he came by for a quick
visit.

1647
01:43:55,440 --> 01:43:58,280
And then he left and my brother
Gary came by too.

1648
01:43:59,920 --> 01:44:02,280
And I remember some of the women
that were there saying my

1649
01:44:02,280 --> 01:44:06,360
brothers were very good looking.
But anyway, that's that has

1650
01:44:06,360 --> 01:44:09,640
nothing to do with anything.
But and then, you know, we drove

1651
01:44:09,640 --> 01:44:14,800
back, drove back to Utah.
And I have to say that some of

1652
01:44:14,800 --> 01:44:18,760
us were in station wagon and the
others, Joe Thompson and the

1653
01:44:18,760 --> 01:44:21,320
sons were in the little car.
I don't know if it was a Datsun

1654
01:44:21,320 --> 01:44:29,040
or Toyota or it was one of those
and you know, we fair event back

1655
01:44:29,040 --> 01:44:36,720
to Utah and we had a around the
anniversary of that first one.

1656
01:44:36,720 --> 01:44:43,600
We had another 1/19/95 and but
anyway that that kind of gets

1657
01:44:43,600 --> 01:44:48,360
off topic now.
OK, So ask me more questions,

1658
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:50,720
OK?
So this this meeting happens

1659
01:44:53,760 --> 01:44:57,040
What?
What, where does you and Joe's

1660
01:44:57,040 --> 01:44:59,840
relationship go from here?
Right?

1661
01:44:59,840 --> 01:45:03,320
Because because now you're,
you're like, look, I can already

1662
01:45:03,320 --> 01:45:06,320
tell where this is going, right?
This is the beginnings of

1663
01:45:06,320 --> 01:45:09,160
another group that's that's
about to take shape.

1664
01:45:09,680 --> 01:45:11,960
Did you recognize it as such at
that time?

1665
01:45:12,480 --> 01:45:14,040
It was a possibility in my mind,
yes.

1666
01:45:14,080 --> 01:45:15,880
OK.
So as you go back now, you're

1667
01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:19,000
going to attempt to go back to
the AUB like everything's

1668
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:21,840
normal, I assume, right?
I'd like to say something to

1669
01:45:21,840 --> 01:45:24,440
that effect.
Brother Joe advised us not to

1670
01:45:24,440 --> 01:45:26,360
willfully break away from the
AUB.

1671
01:45:26,360 --> 01:45:27,160
OK.
All right.

1672
01:45:27,280 --> 01:45:31,960
Which is similar to AUB used to
advise us not to antagonize the

1673
01:45:31,960 --> 01:45:33,160
church.
Right.

1674
01:45:33,520 --> 01:45:36,800
Or or to remain as faithful as
we could.

1675
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:39,240
Right, right.
So you're, you're going to go

1676
01:45:39,240 --> 01:45:43,000
back to the AUB, try to try to
go, go on like nothing's

1677
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:47,240
happened.
Where, where does Joe take

1678
01:45:47,240 --> 01:45:49,360
things next?
And then what happens to the

1679
01:45:49,360 --> 01:45:54,960
small group of people?
OK, after the 94 meeting that we

1680
01:45:54,960 --> 01:46:00,760
had in Mesa, the only one that I
believe had enough sense to

1681
01:46:00,760 --> 01:46:05,520
catch on to what Brother Joe was
trying to do at that first

1682
01:46:05,520 --> 01:46:11,880
meeting, there was Ted Jessup.
Ted Jessup called Brother Joe

1683
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:15,080
and directly asked him if he
could get the fullness of

1684
01:46:15,080 --> 01:46:17,240
priesthood, AKA the second
anointing.

1685
01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:23,640
Brother Joe prayed about it and
then made the arrangement.

1686
01:46:25,280 --> 01:46:29,640
Now it happened.
It was a couple months later, I

1687
01:46:29,640 --> 01:46:31,160
believe.
I mean, I don't even know if it

1688
01:46:31,160 --> 01:46:33,240
was a couple months.
I'd have to talk to Marone and

1689
01:46:33,240 --> 01:46:38,400
to, to get the chronology
because we had this meeting in

1690
01:46:38,400 --> 01:46:43,360
April and it was after that at
this time, Marone, I was working

1691
01:46:43,360 --> 01:46:49,000
with me.
I was I was in my my second year

1692
01:46:49,000 --> 01:46:50,840
of doing siding.
OK.

1693
01:46:51,400 --> 01:46:53,800
Which by the way, Rob Hander,
the one I mentioned earlier,

1694
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:55,440
he's the one that brought me
into the trade.

1695
01:46:55,440 --> 01:46:57,960
OK, gotcha.
And I was still working with

1696
01:46:57,960 --> 01:47:00,920
him.
He was it was his company and I

1697
01:47:00,920 --> 01:47:03,160
was one of the crew, crew guys,
right.

1698
01:47:04,040 --> 01:47:07,400
Well, he gave me my own crew and
and I hired Marone.

1699
01:47:07,400 --> 01:47:10,680
I just have to work with me.
And he came in as a cutter.

1700
01:47:13,040 --> 01:47:17,800
And I remember we were on a job
and it was kind of a gloomy day,

1701
01:47:18,640 --> 01:47:23,974
rainy, gloomy day.
And Morona is a grandfather in

1702
01:47:37,440 --> 01:47:40,000
And he says, why don't you know,
why don't we go there for lunch?

1703
01:47:41,000 --> 01:47:43,600
No, it wasn't that we took lunch
and we got to talking about

1704
01:47:43,600 --> 01:47:47,560
things.
And he said, I feel impressed

1705
01:47:47,560 --> 01:47:50,720
that we have to go pray.
Why don't I says, where are we

1706
01:47:50,720 --> 01:47:52,880
going to do that?
And he says, well, we can go in

1707
01:47:52,880 --> 01:47:56,000
the basement of my grand, my
grandfather in Law's house.

1708
01:47:57,400 --> 01:47:59,440
So he went there and I think he
was actually living there at the

1709
01:47:59,440 --> 01:48:04,040
time, him and his wife.
So he went there and we went

1710
01:48:04,040 --> 01:48:09,000
down in the basement and we
offered up some prayers in the

1711
01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:11,720
true order.
Right now, of course, we weren't

1712
01:48:11,720 --> 01:48:15,160
dressed in our robe, sure, but
we both wore the garment.

1713
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:17,840
We understood that was enough to
do right.

1714
01:48:17,840 --> 01:48:24,080
And, and I remember I was
overcome with a very strong

1715
01:48:24,080 --> 01:48:27,520
premonition.
And I'd say to my own I, I feel

1716
01:48:27,520 --> 01:48:32,680
by the Spirit that your dad has
received something very special.

1717
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:36,000
I don't know what it is, but I
feel that he's received

1718
01:48:36,000 --> 01:48:39,000
something very special.
Really.

1719
01:48:39,000 --> 01:48:40,800
She says.
Yes, I feel it very strong.

1720
01:48:42,040 --> 01:48:45,720
Well, after work, when we went
back home, well, he wasn't

1721
01:48:45,720 --> 01:48:48,680
living there anymore.
He was living on in my place.

1722
01:48:48,680 --> 01:48:52,120
I had a house in Kearns, OK, and
I was living with his brother

1723
01:48:52,120 --> 01:48:55,600
Carlos at the time, and Marona
and his brother Tony moved in.

1724
01:48:55,600 --> 01:48:58,680
It was a kind of a big enough
house that it could have all of

1725
01:48:58,680 --> 01:49:02,440
us there.
When we got home, guess who was

1726
01:49:02,440 --> 01:49:08,280
there visiting from Mesa?
Brother Ted and his wife and

1727
01:49:08,280 --> 01:49:09,760
they were dressed in white
clothing.

1728
01:49:12,960 --> 01:49:15,680
Wow.
So when we got there, Marone and

1729
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:17,720
I looked at each other and we
both knew what happened.

1730
01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:20,520
Yeah.
Brother Ted didn't have to tell

1731
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:23,440
us a word.
We got a testimony of it, Right.

1732
01:49:24,400 --> 01:49:29,920
And so to me, it was it we it
was better that we found out

1733
01:49:29,920 --> 01:49:31,760
that way.
Yeah, absolutely.

1734
01:49:34,120 --> 01:49:36,600
So at this point, how much
longer does Ted live?

1735
01:49:36,640 --> 01:49:39,320
I'm not Ted.
Excuse me Joe live after this.

1736
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:41,520
After this, two more years.
Two more years.

1737
01:49:41,560 --> 01:49:43,240
He died in 90.
Six what?

1738
01:49:43,240 --> 01:49:45,520
What are those two years filled
with at this point?

1739
01:49:46,800 --> 01:49:54,360
Well, they're filled with
brother Joe is not doing much

1740
01:49:54,480 --> 01:49:57,200
himself because he's he's he's
fairly ill.

1741
01:49:57,280 --> 01:50:01,720
Yeah, and he's bed bound an
awful lot.

1742
01:50:02,800 --> 01:50:07,720
I do see him on occasion at, you
know, more gatherings, like a

1743
01:50:09,280 --> 01:50:13,880
blessing of a baby or somebody,
somebody's birthday party or

1744
01:50:13,880 --> 01:50:16,040
something like that.
I'll see him at a gathering like

1745
01:50:16,040 --> 01:50:18,120
that.
But for the most part, I don't

1746
01:50:18,120 --> 01:50:20,440
see him in a religious setting,
right.

1747
01:50:20,440 --> 01:50:23,000
He's generally at home and I go
visit from time to time.

1748
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:28,240
I do remember him having
concerns with the way Brother

1749
01:50:28,240 --> 01:50:30,800
Ted wants to proceed with things
because Brother Ted was a

1750
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:33,480
missionary in the LDS church and
he thought he could do things

1751
01:50:33,480 --> 01:50:35,280
the way you did it in the LDS
church.

1752
01:50:36,600 --> 01:50:38,400
And Brother Joe was trying to
let him know.

1753
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:40,680
This is a different animal,
right?

1754
01:50:40,680 --> 01:50:43,480
You know, you know this.
This takes a different approach.

1755
01:50:45,160 --> 01:50:51,880
But anyway, aside from that and
him encouraging us to gather in

1756
01:50:51,880 --> 01:50:54,240
the true order of prayer and
stuff like that, not much is

1757
01:50:54,240 --> 01:50:55,360
happening.
OK.

1758
01:50:57,160 --> 01:51:01,440
But I do know is that in the in
that before he died, Brother Ted

1759
01:51:03,680 --> 01:51:04,960
ordains.
No, Sullivan.

1760
01:51:05,800 --> 01:51:08,600
OK.
All right.

1761
01:51:09,160 --> 01:51:14,000
And then Brother Ted and no
Sullivan, you know Brother Ted,

1762
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:16,880
you know the he acquires some
property in Northern Arizona

1763
01:51:18,680 --> 01:51:24,520
near a town called Contra
Arizona, and he wants to label

1764
01:51:24,520 --> 01:51:28,880
it as a gathering spot where we
can proceed to build a temple.

1765
01:51:29,880 --> 01:51:32,000
OK.
So that they can continue

1766
01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:34,800
working.
So it seems like Ted really

1767
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:36,960
caught Joe's vision there a
little bit.

1768
01:51:37,240 --> 01:51:42,440
OK, now I I I do both Brother
Mel and Brother Ted around that

1769
01:51:42,640 --> 01:51:46,760
before before Brother Joe died.
I think they were both kicked

1770
01:51:46,760 --> 01:51:52,200
out of the owner group.
By that time I hadn't because I

1771
01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:54,480
wasn't as vocal as they were.
Right.

1772
01:51:55,240 --> 01:52:02,480
The brother, Brother Mel was
instrumental and had a hand in a

1773
01:52:02,480 --> 01:52:10,800
letter that was delivered to
everyone in the AUD questioning

1774
01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:12,200
the way they dealt with Joe
Thompson.

1775
01:52:13,040 --> 01:52:16,520
Because it didn't follow the
protocol that told to, you know,

1776
01:52:16,520 --> 01:52:19,720
should follow if someone is, you
know, serious charges are

1777
01:52:19,720 --> 01:52:24,160
brought against people.
And it was a letter mainly

1778
01:52:24,160 --> 01:52:29,120
dealing with that.
And I know of some of the guy,

1779
01:52:29,120 --> 01:52:36,560
some of the people who were in
that letter or who contributed

1780
01:52:36,560 --> 01:52:39,120
to that letter, right.
I didn't write anything on that

1781
01:52:39,120 --> 01:52:42,000
letter, but I made, I made a
statement that was quoted in

1782
01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:44,320
that letter.
So you could say I made a

1783
01:52:44,320 --> 01:52:46,760
contribution too.
Sure, like a sentence or two,

1784
01:52:46,840 --> 01:52:54,120
sure.
But anyway, but brother Mel also

1785
01:52:54,120 --> 01:52:57,480
wrote a private letter to
brother Owen, you know,

1786
01:52:57,480 --> 01:53:00,120
questioning some of these things
and stating him.

1787
01:53:00,120 --> 01:53:03,040
I, I, I support you and your
calling and all this other

1788
01:53:03,040 --> 01:53:05,400
stuff, but I, I, I'd like some
answers on this.

1789
01:53:05,400 --> 01:53:08,440
And and for his troubles, he got
kicked out of the group.

1790
01:53:08,960 --> 01:53:14,000
Right.
And, and I remember the the the

1791
01:53:14,000 --> 01:53:17,920
letter was read out loud in one
of the priesthood meetings and

1792
01:53:17,920 --> 01:53:21,120
they were asking, is anybody
here, you know, have anything to

1793
01:53:21,120 --> 01:53:22,640
do with this letter and this and
that and the other.

1794
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:26,960
And I was hearing a lot of the
stirrings and like a fool, I was

1795
01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:29,120
going to raise my hand and say I
had anything to do with it.

1796
01:53:29,120 --> 01:53:32,480
I really didn't.
But I was aware of who did you.

1797
01:53:32,480 --> 01:53:34,480
Got 2 sentences in there, Sean.
Yeah.

1798
01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:41,120
But anyway, like a fool I was
going to rat anybody out or

1799
01:53:41,120 --> 01:53:41,920
anything.
Right.

1800
01:53:42,400 --> 01:53:45,920
And quite frankly, they didn't
even address the content of the

1801
01:53:45,920 --> 01:53:49,040
letter, they just started
referring to it as accusing of

1802
01:53:49,040 --> 01:53:53,800
the brethren and all this other
stuff, and it was a total straw

1803
01:53:53,800 --> 01:53:54,880
man.
Right.

1804
01:53:56,400 --> 01:54:04,960
But anyway, so that So what I'm
showing here is kind of in a odd

1805
01:54:04,960 --> 01:54:09,280
sort of way, I'm showing you
kind of a of how keys were

1806
01:54:09,280 --> 01:54:11,640
passed on.
Yes, yes, I'm picking that up.

1807
01:54:11,800 --> 01:54:14,800
From Joseph Musser to Joe
Thompson to Ted Joseph, Yes, and

1808
01:54:14,800 --> 01:54:23,560
O'Sullivan.
But anyway, the legitimacy of of

1809
01:54:23,560 --> 01:54:27,000
the those ordinations all ties
into Joe Joseph.

1810
01:54:27,000 --> 01:54:29,600
Musser, right?
Yep, it can all be traced back

1811
01:54:29,600 --> 01:54:32,240
to Musser.
Right now there are people that

1812
01:54:32,280 --> 01:54:34,200
you know that would challenge
that notion.

1813
01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:37,240
You know, you people says that
those were never passed on and

1814
01:54:37,720 --> 01:54:39,840
they haven't seen enough
evidence of it and all this and

1815
01:54:39,840 --> 01:54:41,040
the other, and I can understand
that.

1816
01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:45,120
Sure.
But there was things said to me

1817
01:54:45,360 --> 01:54:49,680
in regards to it that to me
settled the issue that he did.

1818
01:54:51,200 --> 01:54:56,240
And another argument that's made
is maybe he wasn't in his right

1819
01:54:56,240 --> 01:54:57,680
mind when he did it and all
that.

1820
01:54:59,120 --> 01:55:02,480
But to me that that's a little
immaterial it it either happened

1821
01:55:02,480 --> 01:55:03,920
or it didn't.
Right, right.

1822
01:55:03,920 --> 01:55:09,160
Well, if you, if you, I'm going
to hold off on that one for a

1823
01:55:09,160 --> 01:55:10,520
minute.
That's just my own.

1824
01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:12,520
Personal yeah, no, no, I I get
it.

1825
01:55:12,560 --> 01:55:14,440
And and it's valid, right?
I do.

1826
01:55:14,440 --> 01:55:19,440
I think it's valid.
So so we we see the secession of

1827
01:55:19,560 --> 01:55:21,400
of those keys start to happen,
right?

1828
01:55:22,560 --> 01:55:31,440
Muster ruin Allred, Joe
Thompson, Ted Jessup and Mel

1829
01:55:31,440 --> 01:55:36,840
Sullivan to this point.
So and I guess that's kind of

1830
01:55:36,840 --> 01:55:39,880
the big thing that that we're
we're at this point.

1831
01:55:39,880 --> 01:55:41,920
So I want to pause here for a
second.

1832
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:45,560
I want to take a break.
And then when we come back, I

1833
01:55:45,560 --> 01:55:49,240
want to talk about where you
were when you found out that

1834
01:55:49,240 --> 01:55:54,440
that Joe Thompson had passed on.
And then I want to follow those

1835
01:55:54,440 --> 01:56:00,040
keys up to the present day,
right without you know it.

1836
01:56:00,120 --> 01:56:03,120
I don't mind naming names of
people who'd had it, who's maybe

1837
01:56:03,120 --> 01:56:05,600
passed on.
Probably want to stay away from

1838
01:56:05,600 --> 01:56:09,120
anyone who holds them currently.
We can refer in generalities,

1839
01:56:09,640 --> 01:56:12,880
but for for for the sake of
somebody else's privacy, I don't

1840
01:56:12,880 --> 01:56:14,440
want to help them.
Does that make sense?

1841
01:56:14,480 --> 01:56:15,520
Absolutely.
All right, cool.

1842
01:56:15,520 --> 01:56:19,080
Let's do that.
So at what point?

1843
01:56:19,840 --> 01:56:23,280
Like at some point we know Joe
passes.

1844
01:56:23,280 --> 01:56:29,280
Where were you when he passed?
When he passed away, if I

1845
01:56:29,280 --> 01:56:33,520
recall, it was sometime in the
spring or maybe early summer of

1846
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:35,800
1996.
I can't remember the exact date

1847
01:56:35,800 --> 01:56:42,440
that he passed, but I was
standing on a plank in drizzly

1848
01:56:42,440 --> 01:56:47,160
rain, installing softened fascia
in the in the backyard of a

1849
01:56:47,160 --> 01:56:52,360
house in Riverton.
And his son, I believe it was

1850
01:56:52,360 --> 01:56:55,840
his son.
Yeah, Kurt Thompson was working

1851
01:56:55,840 --> 01:57:01,440
with me when I got a call from
his daughter Marianne, who is

1852
01:57:01,440 --> 01:57:05,160
Marianne Watson, telling me that
her father passed away.

1853
01:57:08,680 --> 01:57:12,320
That was on a cell phone, the
kind they used to have back in

1854
01:57:12,320 --> 01:57:13,080
the 90's.
The brick.

1855
01:57:14,080 --> 01:57:15,760
Yeah, 90.
Well, it wasn't quite the brick.

1856
01:57:15,760 --> 01:57:19,360
It was a little bit more modern
looking than that, but in 1996.

1857
01:57:19,560 --> 01:57:21,000
Still had to pull up the
antenna.

1858
01:57:21,440 --> 01:57:22,840
Well, I had an antenna.
On.

1859
01:57:22,840 --> 01:57:24,080
OK, All right.
Gotcha.

1860
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:27,360
Gotcha.
One of those fat antennas.

1861
01:57:28,040 --> 01:57:31,720
Yeah.
And so like, what at that time,

1862
01:57:31,720 --> 01:57:34,000
are you still part of the AUB?
Are you still attending with the

1863
01:57:34,000 --> 01:57:36,120
AUB?
What was what was the general

1864
01:57:36,120 --> 01:57:40,880
consensus like around, you know,
the scuttlebutt, if you will,

1865
01:57:40,880 --> 01:57:43,520
around the AUB about his
passing?

1866
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:46,560
Like is anyone bringing it up or
talking about it or?

1867
01:57:50,200 --> 01:57:53,920
I have to admit that during that
time I was I wasn't what you was

1868
01:57:53,920 --> 01:57:56,760
calling completely active.
Right, I get you.

1869
01:57:56,960 --> 01:58:00,520
I was still I was still quasi
active.

1870
01:58:01,360 --> 01:58:03,960
It it gets a little hard right
when you start going down a

1871
01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:07,120
different path, it gets a little
hard to want to be there

1872
01:58:08,040 --> 01:58:10,520
consistently.
I I get that.

1873
01:58:10,800 --> 01:58:15,600
My main thing was they really
started pushing support for

1874
01:58:15,600 --> 01:58:18,800
brother Owen on a on a one man
basis, right.

1875
01:58:18,800 --> 01:58:21,280
That I didn't agree with.
Right.

1876
01:58:21,480 --> 01:58:25,920
And so it was beyond Joe, beyond
Joe Thompson with that issue.

1877
01:58:25,920 --> 01:58:30,200
Yeah.
But anyway, I have to do I have

1878
01:58:30,200 --> 01:58:33,200
to say that a brother Joe's
funeral, something happened

1879
01:58:33,200 --> 01:58:35,160
that.
No, it wasn't his funeral.

1880
01:58:35,600 --> 01:58:36,720
Sorry.
No, you're good.

1881
01:58:36,760 --> 01:58:39,760
Let me backtrack.
There was a man by the name of

1882
01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:46,320
Ken Jepsen, and Ken Jepsen was a
good friend of Sean Murphy or

1883
01:58:46,320 --> 01:58:47,600
Steve Murphy.
OK.

1884
01:58:48,360 --> 01:58:53,240
And Steve Murphy was adamant
about Joe being a wicked man.

1885
01:58:55,280 --> 01:59:00,720
And that was what Ken Jepsen was
formulating in his mind until he

1886
01:59:00,720 --> 01:59:02,480
decided to go talk to Joe
himself.

1887
01:59:02,760 --> 01:59:04,560
Then he totally changed his tune
about Joe.

1888
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:09,360
I attended an elders meeting and
then this.

1889
01:59:09,480 --> 01:59:12,360
It was kind of a special meeting
because we had his guests,

1890
01:59:12,720 --> 01:59:16,520
Lamoine Jensen.
Lamoine Jensen was there as well

1891
01:59:16,520 --> 01:59:19,720
as David Watson who were members
of the council and they were

1892
01:59:19,720 --> 01:59:26,040
attending our meeting.
Well, at that meeting, the

1893
01:59:26,040 --> 01:59:30,200
Elders Corn president kind of
opened the meeting for people to

1894
01:59:30,200 --> 01:59:31,640
get up and bear their
testimonies.

1895
01:59:32,560 --> 01:59:35,360
And there was a couple of men
that got up to bear their

1896
01:59:35,360 --> 01:59:42,760
testimonies and they were Paul
Maycock on Die Allred in Rob

1897
01:59:42,760 --> 01:59:45,520
Hender.
And they all got up and

1898
01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:49,360
basically gave the same kind of
testimony that I testify that

1899
01:59:49,360 --> 01:59:51,080
Brother Owen is the man who
holds the keys.

1900
01:59:51,680 --> 01:59:54,320
That was the gist of all three
others, but they all gave a

1901
01:59:54,320 --> 01:59:56,200
little story into it.
Right.

1902
01:59:56,760 --> 01:59:58,560
And then Ken Jepsen got up to
talk.

1903
02:00:00,480 --> 02:00:02,800
And this I will never forget
because it was epic.

1904
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:07,200
But brother Ken Jepsen gets up
now to describe brother Ken

1905
02:00:07,200 --> 02:00:08,800
Jepsen.
He had a good singing voice.

1906
02:00:09,800 --> 02:00:12,280
Good singing voice and he
sounded a lot like John Denver

1907
02:00:12,960 --> 02:00:14,920
and he actually sang a lot of
John Denver songs.

1908
02:00:18,160 --> 02:00:20,200
So that kind of gives you a
little bit of the sound of his

1909
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:25,920
voice as a reference.
But anyway, he gets up to talk

1910
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:32,240
and he says, and he starts by
saying, brother Paul, I, I, I

1911
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:34,200
liked what you said about this,
this and that.

1912
02:00:34,280 --> 02:00:36,760
Brother Onda, I liked about what
you said, this, this and that.

1913
02:00:36,760 --> 02:00:39,320
Brother Rob Hender, I, I like
what you said about this, this

1914
02:00:39,320 --> 02:00:42,320
and that says but brother, and
let's get serious.

1915
02:00:44,200 --> 02:00:48,960
You bury your testimony.
You make it sound like it's hard

1916
02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:51,480
for you to get up and bury your
testimony about Brother Owen in

1917
02:00:51,480 --> 02:00:57,440
this, in this setting says would
you have the courage to get up?

1918
02:00:57,800 --> 02:01:01,120
You act as though it takes
courage to to do so here in this

1919
02:01:01,120 --> 02:01:04,000
group of people.
Would you have the courage to

1920
02:01:04,000 --> 02:01:06,720
get up in an LDS board meeting
and say the things you've said

1921
02:01:06,720 --> 02:01:08,880
today?
Oh.

1922
02:01:10,680 --> 02:01:13,440
And he says, well, I too am
going to bear my testimony.

1923
02:01:14,400 --> 02:01:18,360
Oh boy.
And he says, brethren, I bear my

1924
02:01:18,360 --> 02:01:21,000
testimony that the brother that
the priesthood that Brother Owen

1925
02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:23,600
has.
Then he points to that Brother

1926
02:01:23,600 --> 02:01:27,040
Lemoyne has and that Brother
David Watson has.

1927
02:01:27,960 --> 02:01:32,040
I bared my solemn testimony to
you that Joseph Thompson has

1928
02:01:32,040 --> 02:01:34,240
that same priesthood and no
brother, and he's not a child

1929
02:01:34,240 --> 02:01:38,440
molester.
Oh.

1930
02:01:39,640 --> 02:01:42,160
Boy, and I can also bear
testimony to you that the way

1931
02:01:42,160 --> 02:01:43,680
he's been dealt with his
unrighteous.

1932
02:01:45,000 --> 02:01:47,040
Wow.
And at that point, the Elders

1933
02:01:47,040 --> 02:01:49,520
Corn president said, Brother
Jepsen, would you sit down?

1934
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:55,560
And he says, I've said my peace.
And he sat down.

1935
02:01:58,600 --> 02:02:01,920
Elders calling president then
says I would like to now call on

1936
02:02:01,920 --> 02:02:04,880
Brother Lamoine Jensen to rebut
what's been said here today.

1937
02:02:07,680 --> 02:02:11,640
Now when Brother Ken Jepsen was
talking, there was a young man

1938
02:02:11,640 --> 02:02:14,160
that got up and left the meeting
offended.

1939
02:02:14,280 --> 02:02:17,280
No, it was a couple of them
walked out in protest.

1940
02:02:19,920 --> 02:02:25,960
And then Brother Lamoine gets up
and he says, I wish I could

1941
02:02:25,960 --> 02:02:28,960
comment on the beautiful
testimonies we heard here today.

1942
02:02:29,840 --> 02:02:36,080
Instead, I am forced to rebut.
And what I can say is, Brother

1943
02:02:36,400 --> 02:02:39,200
Jepsen, you don't know what
you're talking about.

1944
02:02:41,240 --> 02:02:44,480
When these allegations were
brought up to Brother Joe, he

1945
02:02:44,480 --> 02:02:53,280
swore.
He swore, brethren, and and he

1946
02:02:53,280 --> 02:02:55,960
says, that's all I had.
And he says, do you believe

1947
02:02:55,960 --> 02:03:00,040
that's the way a man of God
would respond sometimes?

1948
02:03:01,400 --> 02:03:06,960
And then he said, and basically
he finished his remarks and I

1949
02:03:06,960 --> 02:03:09,040
remember thinking to myself,
that's it.

1950
02:03:10,320 --> 02:03:14,960
That's the response, right?
Is that brother Joe swore,

1951
02:03:16,680 --> 02:03:20,520
right?
It's like, oh, that's good news.

1952
02:03:20,520 --> 02:03:24,480
My daughters are accusing me of
something very heinous.

1953
02:03:24,960 --> 02:03:27,120
Right.
I think I'd be upset too.

1954
02:03:27,360 --> 02:03:29,440
Yeah.
Especially if it wasn't true.

1955
02:03:29,800 --> 02:03:34,040
Absolutely.
But anyway, this is where I

1956
02:03:34,040 --> 02:03:37,760
think I made myself known to a
lot of people because I could

1957
02:03:37,760 --> 02:03:40,440
see that brother Ken Jepsen was
feeling very alone at that

1958
02:03:40,440 --> 02:03:43,920
moment.
I walked up to him to shake his

1959
02:03:43,920 --> 02:03:46,520
hand and I said thank you.
We needed to hear that.

1960
02:03:46,840 --> 02:03:51,400
And I made sure everybody would.
Then eyesight and earshot, heard

1961
02:03:51,400 --> 02:03:53,600
what I said and saw what I did.
Right.

1962
02:03:55,560 --> 02:03:58,240
That was kind of the end,
probably close to the end at

1963
02:03:58,240 --> 02:04:01,240
that point.
Well, Ken Jepsen, this.

1964
02:04:01,320 --> 02:04:04,000
No, it wasn't close to the end.
It was still this.

1965
02:04:04,120 --> 02:04:09,520
Joe Thompson died in 96 and and
brother Ken died before he did.

1966
02:04:10,280 --> 02:04:13,080
OK.
By an unfortunate accident when

1967
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:18,400
he went camping with his family,
he went camping with his family

1968
02:04:18,600 --> 02:04:23,200
in an old tree, fell on them and
crushed him to death.

1969
02:04:23,320 --> 02:04:27,080
Oh jeez.
And as you would expect, people

1970
02:04:27,080 --> 02:04:28,920
blame that on his stance.
Right.

1971
02:04:30,040 --> 02:04:35,520
Which I thought was very it's a
very insensitive thing to say.

1972
02:04:36,000 --> 02:04:39,000
Right.
But anyway, this brings me to

1973
02:04:39,000 --> 02:04:43,640
Ken Jepsen's funeral.
I attended his funeral and a lot

1974
02:04:43,640 --> 02:04:46,800
of people in the group did on
both sides of this issue.

1975
02:04:49,520 --> 02:04:54,880
Ken Jepsen's father was still in
the LDS mainstream church and he

1976
02:04:54,880 --> 02:05:00,720
gave a eulogy of his son.
And he was talking about how we,

1977
02:05:00,720 --> 02:05:03,040
I didn't always see eye to eye
with my, my son.

1978
02:05:03,040 --> 02:05:05,080
He, But my son has always been a
good man.

1979
02:05:06,840 --> 02:05:10,360
And apparently I didn't know how
good he was until lately as I've

1980
02:05:11,720 --> 02:05:14,200
begun to meet the people that he
interacted with.

1981
02:05:15,400 --> 02:05:20,880
And he says, but the thing that
touched me the most is when I

1982
02:05:20,880 --> 02:05:25,720
was in the process of looking
for a coffin from my son, the

1983
02:05:25,720 --> 02:05:32,800
Thompson family said, no, we, we
have a coffin that he that we'd

1984
02:05:32,800 --> 02:05:36,360
like to donate that was
handcrafted.

1985
02:05:37,600 --> 02:05:40,120
And I was informed that it was
made for Joe Thompson.

1986
02:05:45,440 --> 02:05:50,120
And he said the coffin he had
intended for himself, he wanted

1987
02:05:50,120 --> 02:05:58,680
me to have for my son.
And he said, and it reminded me

1988
02:05:58,840 --> 02:06:03,240
of when Christ was entombed.
He was entombed in the tomb of

1989
02:06:03,240 --> 02:06:08,360
Joseph Arimathea, right?
And he says, so I want to say I

1990
02:06:08,360 --> 02:06:11,600
am very thankful to God that we
have a modern day Joseph

1991
02:06:11,600 --> 02:06:13,720
Arimathea.
His name is Joseph of Arimathea.

1992
02:06:14,160 --> 02:06:17,360
Oh wow.
That had to make few people

1993
02:06:17,360 --> 02:06:19,400
start shifting comfortably at
that funeral.

1994
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:25,080
And then he said, I can't
believe, he says that people

1995
02:06:28,640 --> 02:06:33,240
would calumnize the name of such
a good man.

1996
02:06:34,680 --> 02:06:37,720
And there were many there who
did then that congregation.

1997
02:06:38,720 --> 02:06:41,680
And he said it as a big state of
rebuke.

1998
02:06:41,960 --> 02:06:43,480
Yep.
And they couldn't say anything

1999
02:06:43,480 --> 02:06:46,560
about it because it's at this
guy's funeral.

2000
02:06:46,960 --> 02:06:55,440
Right.
So after Joe Patrick, what

2001
02:06:55,440 --> 02:06:58,360
happens to this group of people
that he has started to work

2002
02:06:58,360 --> 02:07:02,000
with, right?
And Jessup, You, Maro and I,

2003
02:07:02,480 --> 02:07:04,600
Who's the other man?
Mel Sullivan.

2004
02:07:04,600 --> 02:07:08,400
Mel Sullivan, thank you.
What, what happens to this this

2005
02:07:08,720 --> 02:07:09,880
group of folks?
What?

2006
02:07:10,080 --> 02:07:15,400
What ends up?
Well, Moroni ends up moving down

2007
02:07:15,400 --> 02:07:19,040
there to join his dad, and at
first he moves to Mesa because

2008
02:07:19,080 --> 02:07:24,760
they're living in Mesa and I
have to say that a bunch of us

2009
02:07:24,760 --> 02:07:27,600
are a bunch of green horns and
how to do anything.

2010
02:07:28,240 --> 02:07:30,680
Sure.
How old are you at this time?

2011
02:07:33,440 --> 02:07:37,800
94 I was 27, OK, which is how
old I was when I received the

2012
02:07:38,400 --> 02:07:46,720
high baptism, high baptism.
And so this all happens when I'm

2013
02:07:46,720 --> 02:07:50,240
27/28/20, 9:30 you know, around
those.

2014
02:07:52,840 --> 02:07:58,920
And, and I'll be honest, when I
didn't really like Brother Ted

2015
02:07:58,920 --> 02:08:04,040
Jessup's approach, I believe it
was a little bit too bull in the

2016
02:08:04,040 --> 02:08:08,720
China closet, right?
And criticism of it was seen as

2017
02:08:08,800 --> 02:08:12,000
as being kind of cowardly or
you'll biting.

2018
02:08:14,240 --> 02:08:20,200
And I don't think that you could
describe me or Brother Joe as

2019
02:08:20,200 --> 02:08:23,280
cowards in any way, anything
like that.

2020
02:08:23,280 --> 02:08:26,760
It's just at times we've learned
that you got to have some

2021
02:08:27,440 --> 02:08:29,320
prudence and how you go about
things.

2022
02:08:32,120 --> 02:08:35,600
I was, admittedly, I was young,
and so some of these older guys

2023
02:08:35,600 --> 02:08:40,400
looked at me as well.
You know, we like you and all,

2024
02:08:40,400 --> 02:08:41,200
but you're young.
Yeah.

2025
02:08:41,720 --> 02:08:45,480
Right, right, right, right.
You're you're still relegated to

2026
02:08:45,480 --> 02:08:48,400
the kids table at Thanksgiving.
Sort of, yeah.

2027
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:51,400
Not entirely.
And it wouldn't be fair for me

2028
02:08:51,400 --> 02:08:54,960
to entirely say that.
I, I think they gave me plenty

2029
02:08:54,960 --> 02:08:58,720
of respect considering my age,
but nevertheless, some of that

2030
02:08:58,720 --> 02:09:03,280
still played into it.
But you know, for as young as I

2031
02:09:03,280 --> 02:09:07,040
was, I had a lot of experience
already with real world things.

2032
02:09:09,760 --> 02:09:20,080
And but anyway, like I mentioned
before, there was almost a

2033
02:09:20,080 --> 02:09:23,160
schism there with Brother Joe's
sons and Ted and Mel and those

2034
02:09:23,160 --> 02:09:28,040
guys over this, over the way
they're going about things.

2035
02:09:29,240 --> 02:09:31,920
And I played an important role
in keeping that from happening.

2036
02:09:32,480 --> 02:09:35,080
Right, keeping everybody
together.

2037
02:09:35,360 --> 02:09:39,440
Yeah, and I, I had a, a talk
with Joe over this.

2038
02:09:39,440 --> 02:09:45,760
And and Joe, you know, I have to
say this, you know, he, he

2039
02:09:45,760 --> 02:09:49,320
thought that my counsel on it
was, was sound and he listened

2040
02:09:49,320 --> 02:09:53,000
to it, which I remember
thinking, you know, as I was

2041
02:09:53,000 --> 02:09:56,200
surprised that he would be that
humble to accept the counseling

2042
02:09:56,200 --> 02:09:59,000
of a upstart like myself, right,
You know.

2043
02:09:59,320 --> 02:10:02,240
Absolutely, yeah.
Show shows a lot of willingness

2044
02:10:02,240 --> 02:10:03,440
to listen.
Right.

2045
02:10:03,440 --> 02:10:05,080
Yeah, that's one thing I can
tell you about Joe.

2046
02:10:05,080 --> 02:10:08,080
He was a Dang good listener,
right?

2047
02:10:09,240 --> 02:10:13,320
So much so that at times you you
thought that he that he wasn't

2048
02:10:13,320 --> 02:10:15,680
because of the fact that he
remained quiet for so long

2049
02:10:16,640 --> 02:10:21,200
without responding.
But he told me the reason he did

2050
02:10:21,200 --> 02:10:23,520
that is because he was always
careful how he answered any

2051
02:10:23,520 --> 02:10:27,680
questions he didn't want to.
He wanted to be very careful not

2052
02:10:27,680 --> 02:10:31,720
to be misunderstood.
Absolutely.

2053
02:10:33,320 --> 02:10:36,440
So this group goes down to
Concho eventually, right?

2054
02:10:36,440 --> 02:10:38,200
Do you do you end up moving down
there too?

2055
02:10:39,520 --> 02:10:42,560
Not till actually quite a bit
later.

2056
02:10:43,280 --> 02:10:49,160
Oh, in 99.
This brings me to a subject that

2057
02:10:49,160 --> 02:10:50,920
I'm very uncomfortable talking
about.

2058
02:10:51,960 --> 02:10:58,800
In 99, I lost my family and
after that nothing was holding

2059
02:10:58,800 --> 02:11:06,080
me in Utah.
So I, I went down there and it

2060
02:11:06,080 --> 02:11:08,520
does, it doesn't mean that I
agreed with every little thing

2061
02:11:08,520 --> 02:11:10,480
that they were about or anything
like that, but it's the only

2062
02:11:10,480 --> 02:11:13,200
place I could see myself going
where I was still welcome.

2063
02:11:14,280 --> 02:11:20,200
I understand.
And, and quite frankly, up in

2064
02:11:20,200 --> 02:11:25,160
Utah of those of us that were
looking at being more prudent

2065
02:11:26,600 --> 02:11:28,520
and action became kind of a big
thing.

2066
02:11:30,800 --> 02:11:33,160
And I'm not saying that Brother
Joe was, you know, his party to

2067
02:11:33,160 --> 02:11:37,280
that because he, he had action
up until he died, you know, to

2068
02:11:37,280 --> 02:11:42,440
the best that he could.
But among his children and all

2069
02:11:42,440 --> 02:11:46,520
that they were, they were very
hesitant to do anything.

2070
02:11:48,640 --> 02:11:54,120
And I, I said to myself, well, I
may not agree with brother Ted's

2071
02:11:54,120 --> 02:11:57,400
direction altogether, but he's
at least going doing something,

2072
02:11:57,520 --> 02:11:59,080
doing something right.
Yeah.

2073
02:11:59,920 --> 02:12:01,720
And I felt maybe I can go down
there.

2074
02:12:01,720 --> 02:12:05,440
And if if I disagree with
something, I can voice it, then

2075
02:12:05,440 --> 02:12:09,560
maybe we can come to some sort
of agreement on under how to

2076
02:12:09,560 --> 02:12:11,160
proceed in a better way or
whatever.

2077
02:12:13,320 --> 02:12:16,440
But, but also emotionally, I
couldn't.

2078
02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:18,920
I couldn't stay where I was
anymore.

2079
02:12:19,680 --> 02:12:25,480
I had to leave and Paul Thompson
and Jonathan Thompson went with

2080
02:12:25,480 --> 02:12:28,480
me.
They they drove me down there

2081
02:12:28,480 --> 02:12:37,280
and we pulled my little truck
with, with one of those rent car

2082
02:12:37,280 --> 02:12:39,120
dollies, car dollies you can
rent.

2083
02:12:40,520 --> 02:12:43,640
And what was remaining of my
belongings and tools and stuff I

2084
02:12:43,640 --> 02:12:46,200
took with me.
And they told me I was welcome

2085
02:12:46,200 --> 02:12:47,760
to be there and then I could
stay with them.

2086
02:12:47,760 --> 02:12:51,440
And, and so I kind of jumped
between Brother Ted's, brother

2087
02:12:51,440 --> 02:12:55,720
Mel's brother around his places.
But I ended up staying at

2088
02:12:55,720 --> 02:12:59,840
Brother Mel's more than off more
often than not because Brother

2089
02:12:59,840 --> 02:13:05,080
Mel lived in town in the town of
Concho and, and Marona and, and

2090
02:13:05,080 --> 02:13:09,960
Ted lived on the land is how
they used to refer to it, off

2091
02:13:09,960 --> 02:13:12,920
grid.
And, you know, I had to go to

2092
02:13:12,920 --> 02:13:16,040
work and stuff and it was easier
for me to go from there.

2093
02:13:16,040 --> 02:13:17,400
Oh.
I see.

2094
02:13:18,600 --> 02:13:25,720
But anyway, and so this went on
for, you know, from I would say

2095
02:13:25,720 --> 02:13:35,080
around September of 99 all the
way to December, mid-december of

2096
02:13:35,840 --> 02:13:38,760
2000.
So how much time is that?

2097
02:13:38,760 --> 02:13:41,240
What was this about a year and a
half?

2098
02:13:41,240 --> 02:13:47,360
Yep, which is around the time I,
I married my third wife, my, my

2099
02:13:47,600 --> 02:13:53,080
present wife, who's Clara, you
know, and then I moved to Cedar

2100
02:13:53,080 --> 02:13:56,240
City for, for a spell because
she was still going to, what do

2101
02:13:58,600 --> 02:14:01,640
you call it, Southern Utah
University.

2102
02:14:01,760 --> 02:14:03,760
OK.
Yep, Suu.

2103
02:14:04,200 --> 02:14:08,840
Suu Yeah.
And so she still, you know,

2104
02:14:08,840 --> 02:14:10,800
hadn't finished what she was
doing there.

2105
02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:15,520
She ended up getting an
associate's degree and, and so I

2106
02:14:15,520 --> 02:14:19,120
lived there for a while and, and
in 2003 we moved back to Concho

2107
02:14:19,120 --> 02:14:26,160
and, and actively started
working with the brethren there.

2108
02:14:26,760 --> 02:14:31,800
And, and for a time that we were
growing, We seem to have a good

2109
02:14:31,800 --> 02:14:34,720
spirit about us.
And then we had a controversy

2110
02:14:34,720 --> 02:14:40,040
that came around 2000 and six,
2007 and and we endured a split

2111
02:14:40,040 --> 02:14:44,280
over that and.
Think that's the same split

2112
02:14:44,280 --> 02:14:46,840
Marone I talked about on his
first podcast.

2113
02:14:46,840 --> 02:14:51,680
With me, yes, and Marone, I
ended up on the same side of

2114
02:14:51,680 --> 02:15:01,520
that split and as as time went
on, it seemed like our work was

2115
02:15:01,680 --> 02:15:07,360
stagnating quite a bit and I
didn't.

2116
02:15:08,320 --> 02:15:13,280
Obviously I wasn't welcome on
the other side unless I was

2117
02:15:13,280 --> 02:15:15,360
going to see the eye to eye with
the love dance.

2118
02:15:16,360 --> 02:15:19,520
But on our side, we weren't
really doing much.

2119
02:15:19,520 --> 02:15:25,480
We started to, but then there's
a lot of hesitancy and, and it

2120
02:15:25,480 --> 02:15:27,800
just turned into we were just
having a Sunday school meeting,

2121
02:15:28,480 --> 02:15:32,280
that's about it, you know, and
very occasionally we would have

2122
02:15:32,400 --> 02:15:37,920
some ordinance work when
generally when we have a convert

2123
02:15:38,320 --> 02:15:41,120
that would come around and
wanted this work done.

2124
02:15:43,000 --> 02:15:47,680
And ironically, a member of the
other side had also been

2125
02:15:47,680 --> 02:15:55,680
ordained by Ted and he ended up,
you know, splitting ways from

2126
02:15:56,800 --> 02:15:58,680
that side of the group and he
moved to Missouri.

2127
02:16:00,120 --> 02:16:01,240
Happened to be my
brother-in-law.

2128
02:16:02,120 --> 02:16:03,120
Robert.
Lefevre, right?

2129
02:16:03,120 --> 02:16:06,680
Lefevre, and I have to say this
outright is him and I were on

2130
02:16:06,680 --> 02:16:13,600
separate camps here, but I do
believe that the spirit of his

2131
02:16:13,640 --> 02:16:20,840
calling fell upon and he began
to actively do more work over

2132
02:16:20,840 --> 02:16:24,440
here in Missouri and in the
process he invited me.

2133
02:16:27,240 --> 02:16:32,440
I was reluctant at 1st and
everything, but I just, you

2134
02:16:32,440 --> 02:16:37,320
know, I always like to give the
benefit of the doubt and I do

2135
02:16:37,320 --> 02:16:39,040
believe people can change for
the better.

2136
02:16:39,760 --> 02:16:43,440
And I'm not saying that he was a
bad man or anything like that.

2137
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:48,440
We just didn't see eye to eye
and I don't think that he viewed

2138
02:16:48,440 --> 02:16:59,200
me with too much approval.
But he came out to Missouri and

2139
02:16:59,200 --> 02:17:03,400
he started a work among the
brethren out here where I

2140
02:17:03,400 --> 02:17:06,799
currently live.
And, and, and then he moved up

2141
02:17:06,799 --> 02:17:10,400
to Pattinsburg and he had bought
an old church there in

2142
02:17:10,400 --> 02:17:13,639
Pattinsburg, Missouri.
And he got a really good deal on

2143
02:17:13,639 --> 02:17:17,799
it because it was in the part of
Pattinsburg that had been

2144
02:17:17,799 --> 02:17:21,040
largely abandoned since the, the
floods of 1993.

2145
02:17:22,680 --> 02:17:25,559
And he got a church for I think
$10,000.

2146
02:17:25,840 --> 02:17:28,200
Wow and.
That was a good sized church and

2147
02:17:29,799 --> 02:17:34,639
and he worked it into a
functioning endowment house.

2148
02:17:35,000 --> 02:17:37,680
He called it a temple.
And that's an item, you know, I

2149
02:17:37,680 --> 02:17:41,440
kind of disagreed with him on,
but whatever he wants to call it

2150
02:17:41,440 --> 02:17:47,360
is fine by me.
But anyway, and he did some work

2151
02:17:47,360 --> 02:17:53,160
there and, and he actually
offered me the completion of my

2152
02:17:53,559 --> 02:17:59,840
higher ordinances, which was,
it's very, very ironic because

2153
02:17:59,840 --> 02:18:03,200
him and I were completely on
opposite views, right?

2154
02:18:05,040 --> 02:18:07,719
And I thought that the Lord had
an interesting sense of humor,

2155
02:18:07,719 --> 02:18:13,280
you know, because I, I have to
admit, I, I told you the idea of

2156
02:18:13,480 --> 02:18:15,160
rejecting the offer based on
that.

2157
02:18:17,639 --> 02:18:21,280
And I made, I made a condition
with, with, I said to the Lord,

2158
02:18:21,280 --> 02:18:25,559
one way I'll know it comes from
you is that there will be no

2159
02:18:25,559 --> 02:18:28,320
restrictions placed on me as a
condition.

2160
02:18:30,200 --> 02:18:33,000
And as soon as I finished saying
that prayer, I got another phone

2161
02:18:33,000 --> 02:18:34,480
call from him.
And he says, I don't know why

2162
02:18:34,480 --> 02:18:38,280
I'm saying this to you, but if
you accept what I'm offering,

2163
02:18:40,559 --> 02:18:42,040
it'll be without any
restriction.

2164
02:18:44,280 --> 02:18:45,480
There's your sign.
Right.

2165
02:18:46,719 --> 02:18:50,600
And so that's how it comes down
to to me.

2166
02:18:51,120 --> 02:18:56,760
OK.
And, and so, and correct me if

2167
02:18:56,760 --> 02:19:01,360
I'm wrong, Robert then goes
along to pass that authority on

2168
02:19:01,360 --> 02:19:05,200
to the folks who would build the
temple here in Missouri, right?

2169
02:19:05,760 --> 02:19:10,360
So we can trace that priesthood
back from the folks that are

2170
02:19:10,360 --> 02:19:16,360
here now in Missouri that have
built the temple, back to Robert

2171
02:19:16,360 --> 02:19:26,320
Lefevre, back to Mel Sullivan or
Ted Jessup, back to Joseph

2172
02:19:26,320 --> 02:19:31,200
Thompson, back to Maser.
Joseph Maser, who can then trace

2173
02:19:31,200 --> 02:19:35,600
it back to Lorenzo Snow.
And all the way back now, what's

2174
02:19:35,600 --> 02:19:38,680
interesting to me, and this was
one of the things that I did

2175
02:19:38,680 --> 02:19:42,320
notice, right?
And I'm, I am going to make a

2176
02:19:42,320 --> 02:19:47,920
statement here and I'm not
casting dispersion on anybody.

2177
02:19:49,760 --> 02:19:53,520
But there does seem to be a
pattern that when when when the

2178
02:19:53,520 --> 02:19:56,080
Lord is involved with the
people, a temple is usually

2179
02:19:56,080 --> 02:19:57,800
short to follow.
Right.

2180
02:19:58,360 --> 02:20:02,400
We can see that through the
history, and I understand that

2181
02:20:02,400 --> 02:20:07,560
it's a herculean effort, but
nonetheless I do find it

2182
02:20:07,560 --> 02:20:14,600
somewhat interesting that every
place that that comes in line

2183
02:20:14,600 --> 02:20:21,240
lands temple work seems to be.
Following right behind it,

2184
02:20:21,320 --> 02:20:23,280
right.
And, and we don't have to call

2185
02:20:23,280 --> 02:20:25,520
it the Thompson line.
We can call it the muster line

2186
02:20:25,520 --> 02:20:28,520
or whatever.
But any place, any place this

2187
02:20:28,520 --> 02:20:31,400
priesthood goes, temple work
seems to follow shortly

2188
02:20:31,400 --> 02:20:35,200
thereafter.
And it's interesting that that

2189
02:20:35,200 --> 02:20:38,400
seems to be some of the fruit
there that that is bore from

2190
02:20:38,400 --> 02:20:43,480
this.
As we've talked about all this

2191
02:20:43,480 --> 02:20:48,080
now, it's an interesting line in
that it doesn't have a lot of

2192
02:20:50,080 --> 02:20:53,720
hierarchy to it, right?
Most of the groups that that

2193
02:20:53,760 --> 02:21:03,120
that I know that have had this
have been somewhat, I don't want

2194
02:21:03,120 --> 02:21:07,680
to say disorganized, but maybe
it's just the best word because

2195
02:21:07,680 --> 02:21:09,680
what's the opposite of
organization loosely.

2196
02:21:09,680 --> 02:21:11,120
Organized.
Loosely organized.

2197
02:21:11,120 --> 02:21:13,520
Thank you.
Yes, you know, there's there's

2198
02:21:13,520 --> 02:21:15,840
not a lot of that organization.
I think that's probably by

2199
02:21:15,840 --> 02:21:17,840
design.
But nonetheless it does seem to

2200
02:21:17,840 --> 02:21:21,000
be every place this priesthood
lands, temple work is following

2201
02:21:21,000 --> 02:21:24,360
shortly behind it.
That seems to be something that

2202
02:21:24,360 --> 02:21:27,560
that you can't get away from.
I will say something here

2203
02:21:27,560 --> 02:21:32,200
though, you know, because I'm
sure, I'm sure critics will say

2204
02:21:32,200 --> 02:21:37,880
this, and that is from the
period of, you know, the Woolies

2205
02:21:38,240 --> 02:21:44,160
and, and that work all the way
to all the way to the 1980s.

2206
02:21:44,160 --> 02:21:46,240
They didn't have temple work in
fundamentalism.

2207
02:21:47,280 --> 02:21:51,360
But the caveat is that they
believe that the church is doing

2208
02:21:51,360 --> 02:21:55,080
it properly, right?
And under that they were saying,

2209
02:21:56,080 --> 02:21:58,480
our Commission has been to keep
plural marriage alive.

2210
02:21:59,760 --> 02:22:03,360
And whatever the church is able
and willing to do, we fully

2211
02:22:03,360 --> 02:22:05,960
support.
And they were careful to say

2212
02:22:05,960 --> 02:22:09,640
we're not a separate church.
They were very careful to say

2213
02:22:09,640 --> 02:22:12,760
that.
And so that's, you know, kind of

2214
02:22:12,760 --> 02:22:15,800
introduces a little bit of
context to that condition.

2215
02:22:16,400 --> 02:22:19,520
Well, I think we have to look at
what the promises that were made

2216
02:22:19,520 --> 02:22:22,560
right when Musser and those
proto fundamentalists, a few of

2217
02:22:22,560 --> 02:22:25,480
them go into the Salt Lake
Temple and they have a meeting

2218
02:22:25,480 --> 02:22:28,640
with Anton Lund.
I, I, I think that was it.

2219
02:22:29,040 --> 02:22:31,800
I'm sure Michael Mussel, correct
me if I got that history wrong,

2220
02:22:32,720 --> 02:22:35,600
but I believe it's Anton Lund.
He basically tells him, look,

2221
02:22:35,600 --> 02:22:37,720
just keep your records because
we're going to be bringing you

2222
02:22:37,720 --> 02:22:39,680
right back in as soon as this
blows over.

2223
02:22:40,720 --> 02:22:43,720
And I think that's where this
idea of we don't start another

2224
02:22:43,720 --> 02:22:46,400
church comes from, right?
In addition to the 1886

2225
02:22:46,400 --> 02:22:50,360
revelation, although that even
seems to have a couple of

2226
02:22:50,360 --> 02:22:53,520
different reports, right?
One is, is, is you know, you'll

2227
02:22:53,520 --> 02:22:56,560
only keep plural marriage alive.
There's another one that seems

2228
02:22:56,560 --> 02:22:59,120
to indicate that you'll do
every, you'll keep alive

2229
02:22:59,120 --> 02:23:02,240
everything that the church
either can't or won't keep

2230
02:23:02,240 --> 02:23:07,000
alive.
And so there, there does seem to

2231
02:23:07,000 --> 02:23:11,320
be to be that.
And then, you know, it was a

2232
02:23:11,320 --> 02:23:14,200
common prayer from what I
understand is I talked to to

2233
02:23:14,200 --> 02:23:16,520
some of some of the more
experienced gentlemen.

2234
02:23:16,520 --> 02:23:19,000
I have the opportunity to talk
to you that the prayer was is

2235
02:23:19,000 --> 02:23:20,920
that the temple doors would be
open to them again.

2236
02:23:21,760 --> 02:23:24,760
And and so I think that all
stems actually from that one

2237
02:23:24,760 --> 02:23:28,000
meeting that they have where
promises are made right from a

2238
02:23:28,000 --> 02:23:31,240
member of the First Presidency
in the Salt Lake Temple that

2239
02:23:31,240 --> 02:23:33,080
hey, just keep your records.
We're going to bring you right

2240
02:23:33,080 --> 02:23:35,680
back in as soon as this blows
over and it just never does.

2241
02:23:36,600 --> 02:23:40,040
And so I I do wonder from time
to time what things would look

2242
02:23:40,040 --> 02:23:42,680
like had there been a
realization sooner that hey,

2243
02:23:42,760 --> 02:23:45,000
they're not that fault falls not
coming.

2244
02:23:46,840 --> 02:23:49,560
But nonetheless, right that that
is a large reason.

2245
02:23:49,560 --> 02:23:52,560
And then I don't find fault in
that either, Sean, right.

2246
02:23:52,560 --> 02:23:58,000
I think that that is a very
rational thing to do and.

2247
02:23:58,000 --> 02:24:00,160
Given what they had.
What they had to work with and,

2248
02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:02,720
and given the instructions that
they had received from the

2249
02:24:02,720 --> 02:24:05,680
church.
It seems like a very rational

2250
02:24:05,680 --> 02:24:10,040
way to go about it.
And and, you know, they there

2251
02:24:10,040 --> 02:24:12,280
does get to a point to where,
you know, people start

2252
02:24:12,280 --> 02:24:14,600
realizing, OK, we're going to
have to do things ourselves now.

2253
02:24:15,480 --> 02:24:18,240
And, and that's that's, you
know, obviously needed.

2254
02:24:18,920 --> 02:24:24,400
So let me ask you this, as you
look back at Joe's life and, and

2255
02:24:24,400 --> 02:24:27,240
certainly not just Joe's life,
but the authority that he was

2256
02:24:27,240 --> 02:24:31,360
willing to pass on, what do you
think the big take away is?

2257
02:24:33,080 --> 02:24:37,320
The big take away that I got out
of it is this not only is it

2258
02:24:37,320 --> 02:24:41,640
important to know you come from
a legitimate line, it's also

2259
02:24:41,640 --> 02:24:44,160
important to know the direction
that line is heading.

2260
02:24:46,000 --> 02:24:52,120
See, I around the same time, I,
I no longer subscribe to the

2261
02:24:52,120 --> 02:24:55,240
idea that only one man on the
earth at a time can have the

2262
02:24:55,240 --> 02:25:00,320
fullness of these, these keys
that are often mentioned.

2263
02:25:01,640 --> 02:25:07,000
And we've talked about it before
in a, in a, in a previous

2264
02:25:07,000 --> 02:25:14,800
podcast.
But anyway, so I realized it's

2265
02:25:14,800 --> 02:25:18,800
important to know that you have
a legitimate line, but it's also

2266
02:25:18,800 --> 02:25:21,560
important to know that the
direction is following the

2267
02:25:21,560 --> 02:25:24,720
Lord's direction.
And one of the things that I

2268
02:25:25,120 --> 02:25:30,360
like to state in in favor of
that point of view is the story

2269
02:25:30,360 --> 02:25:37,400
of of Alma in the Book of Mormon
when he listens to the call to

2270
02:25:37,400 --> 02:25:40,560
repentance that have been a die
gives to the council of King

2271
02:25:40,560 --> 02:25:46,120
Noah's priests.
Now previous in the Book of

2272
02:25:46,120 --> 02:25:50,760
Mormon, it says that King Noah's
father was a righteous man who

2273
02:25:50,760 --> 02:25:54,720
had consecrated priests.
And when Noah took over, it said

2274
02:25:54,720 --> 02:26:01,000
that he was not like his father
and that he dismissed all his

2275
02:26:01,000 --> 02:26:04,560
father father's consecrated
priests and consecrated his own,

2276
02:26:05,600 --> 02:26:11,440
among whom was Alma.
But when Alma heard the call to

2277
02:26:11,440 --> 02:26:18,320
repentance from Abinadi, who I
suspect was one of the former

2278
02:26:18,320 --> 02:26:22,760
consecrated priests of King
Noah's father, that's a

2279
02:26:22,760 --> 02:26:24,200
suspicion of mine.
It's not.

2280
02:26:24,560 --> 02:26:26,400
I can't.
Can't prove it?

2281
02:26:26,520 --> 02:26:29,280
I can't prove it.
Sure, does sound depressing, no?

2282
02:26:30,040 --> 02:26:36,840
But anyway, after he repents and
sees the truth and what Abed I

2283
02:26:36,840 --> 02:26:40,520
was saying, he immediately goes
out and starts baptizing and

2284
02:26:41,880 --> 02:26:43,400
organizing churches and all
that.

2285
02:26:43,400 --> 02:26:45,320
Under what authority?
Right.

2286
02:26:48,640 --> 02:26:51,240
Now I would say that the
authority got from King Noah was

2287
02:26:51,240 --> 02:26:57,400
probably legit, but King Noah
was like operating in the

2288
02:26:57,400 --> 02:26:58,920
direction the Lord wanted him to
be.

2289
02:26:59,240 --> 02:27:02,760
Well, and see, this is where we
have to get into authority

2290
02:27:02,760 --> 02:27:05,560
versus power when we talk about
priesthood, right?

2291
02:27:07,280 --> 02:27:11,600
We have the section in Doctrine
and Covenants that says anytime

2292
02:27:11,720 --> 02:27:16,680
I believe it's 121, anytime
somebody is acting not in good

2293
02:27:16,680 --> 02:27:18,240
faith.
Amen to this priesthood.

2294
02:27:19,120 --> 02:27:23,640
Now, does that mean that that
man loses his ordination?

2295
02:27:24,680 --> 02:27:28,560
I would my opinion would be that
no, me neither.

2296
02:27:29,160 --> 02:27:35,320
And but let me explain.
Because it says in any degree of

2297
02:27:35,320 --> 02:27:41,480
unrighteousness.
So if we interpret that to mean

2298
02:27:42,440 --> 02:27:45,640
that if any of us act in any
degree of unrighteousness and

2299
02:27:45,640 --> 02:27:50,240
the use of our priesthood, that
we lose the priesthood entirely

2300
02:27:50,240 --> 02:27:53,680
from that point on, then I would
argue that no one has it.

2301
02:27:55,120 --> 02:27:57,320
Correct.
They're just, you know, I think,

2302
02:27:57,360 --> 02:28:00,480
I think what the Lord is saying
there is understanding that that

2303
02:28:00,480 --> 02:28:04,040
he can't allow his priesthood to
be used for nefarious purposes,

2304
02:28:04,480 --> 02:28:08,560
but at the same time
understanding that that that

2305
02:28:08,560 --> 02:28:12,960
power can be accessed again once
sufficient repentance has

2306
02:28:12,960 --> 02:28:15,000
happened and forgiveness has
been extended.

2307
02:28:15,120 --> 02:28:17,320
I believe so.
And but let me put it this way.

2308
02:28:17,320 --> 02:28:21,400
I think it's even a little bit
more clear cut than that, I

2309
02:28:21,400 --> 02:28:27,360
believe because it states in
that same revelation that where

2310
02:28:27,360 --> 02:28:34,520
it says when it what it says.
Now a lot of people say that

2311
02:28:34,520 --> 02:28:37,120
when it's he says Amen to the
priesthood of that man, that

2312
02:28:37,120 --> 02:28:42,000
Amen means goodbye.
No Amen means so be it.

2313
02:28:43,160 --> 02:28:47,520
So when you read that, with that
understanding, it says the

2314
02:28:47,520 --> 02:28:53,760
Spirit of the Lord is grieved
and departs, right?

2315
02:28:54,480 --> 02:28:56,840
And when it says and when it
leaves, Amen to the priesthood

2316
02:28:56,840 --> 02:28:59,680
of that man.
So basically nothing we do in

2317
02:28:59,680 --> 02:29:04,000
the priesthood is valid without
the Spirit of the Lord being in,

2318
02:29:05,200 --> 02:29:06,800
being in agreement with what
we're doing.

2319
02:29:08,160 --> 02:29:10,960
So outside of that, we have no
authority.

2320
02:29:11,560 --> 02:29:13,920
Correct.
So now let me ask you this

2321
02:29:13,920 --> 02:29:18,120
question.
So let's say you have a

2322
02:29:18,120 --> 02:29:21,120
priesthood holder that has been
less than virtuous but still

2323
02:29:21,120 --> 02:29:24,920
officiates in an ordinance.
Does that mean that ordinance is

2324
02:29:24,920 --> 02:29:29,400
null and void?
If that ordinance is done

2325
02:29:30,960 --> 02:29:36,960
properly, the true and faithful
record is kept and it's and it's

2326
02:29:36,960 --> 02:29:42,080
done within the realms of
righteousness, I would say that

2327
02:29:42,120 --> 02:29:44,400
it does have authority.
That's what I'm saying.

2328
02:29:45,200 --> 02:29:55,360
So look, regardless of what you
think of of somebody else coming

2329
02:29:55,360 --> 02:30:00,840
up who has done something that
you don't like, right, and maybe

2330
02:30:00,840 --> 02:30:07,000
it's even just flat wrong, it
doesn't mean that the power of

2331
02:30:07,000 --> 02:30:11,120
the priesthood isn't still held,
but in escrow, right?

2332
02:30:11,120 --> 02:30:12,960
Meaning that you can't access
it.

2333
02:30:13,680 --> 02:30:17,600
Now, that doesn't mean that you
can't pass it along, that just

2334
02:30:17,600 --> 02:30:20,520
means you don't get to access
the power there.

2335
02:30:20,520 --> 02:30:23,440
We have section 43.
Right.

2336
02:30:23,560 --> 02:30:27,840
Where it states that that Joseph
Smith is the law giver to his

2337
02:30:27,840 --> 02:30:33,840
church and it says it says he
will be the law giver to the

2338
02:30:33,840 --> 02:30:38,280
church if he abide in me, right.
And if he abide not in me, he

2339
02:30:38,280 --> 02:30:41,040
shall have no power except to
appoint another in his stead.

2340
02:30:41,040 --> 02:30:43,600
Yep.
Yep, and I think that's an.

2341
02:30:43,600 --> 02:30:47,280
Extreme well, and look, we can
we can look farther back.

2342
02:30:47,280 --> 02:30:49,360
We can see this happen in
Genesis, right?

2343
02:30:49,920 --> 02:30:53,040
It it's Jacob, if I'm not
mistaken, who's not the

2344
02:30:53,040 --> 02:30:55,480
birthright, right.
The birthright is actually Esau.

2345
02:30:56,360 --> 02:30:58,760
And how does how does Jacob end
up with it?

2346
02:30:58,760 --> 02:31:01,840
Oh.
Some pretty shady things.

2347
02:31:02,160 --> 02:31:04,280
They trick his father.
They trick his dad, right?

2348
02:31:04,280 --> 02:31:07,800
I mean, so.
But yet even though it's under

2349
02:31:07,800 --> 02:31:11,280
those circumstances, nobody bats
an eye like, well, it went to

2350
02:31:11,280 --> 02:31:15,320
him, right?
And so, and we're glad it did.

2351
02:31:15,960 --> 02:31:19,960
And So what, what I, what I want
to say here is that authority

2352
02:31:19,960 --> 02:31:22,920
can be passed all day long,
right?

2353
02:31:24,520 --> 02:31:28,760
That's authority.
Then you get into being

2354
02:31:29,880 --> 02:31:33,240
effective in the priesthood, and
that requires power.

2355
02:31:33,760 --> 02:31:38,240
And power in the priesthood is
an individual matter, and that's

2356
02:31:38,240 --> 02:31:42,160
going to be between you and God
and your ability to heed his

2357
02:31:42,160 --> 02:31:45,400
commands and listen to his voice
and do the things you're asked

2358
02:31:45,400 --> 02:31:48,560
to do.
And so I think this is one of

2359
02:31:48,560 --> 02:31:50,920
those places where it's really
important to make the

2360
02:31:50,920 --> 02:31:53,880
distinction between the the
authority of the priesthood and

2361
02:31:53,880 --> 02:31:57,680
the power of the priesthood.
There's only one statement that

2362
02:31:57,680 --> 02:32:00,720
I ever heard Russell M Nelson
say that I could kind of

2363
02:32:00,720 --> 02:32:04,080
completely agree with, and it
was when I was in the LDS

2364
02:32:04,080 --> 02:32:05,960
church.
And it it's kind of a startling

2365
02:32:05,960 --> 02:32:09,600
admission, actually.
And this is when he was not

2366
02:32:09,600 --> 02:32:13,160
president of the church, but he
was the acting president of the

2367
02:32:13,160 --> 02:32:17,960
Quorum of the 12.
And at this time, I was in a

2368
02:32:17,960 --> 02:32:25,720
Bishop brick in Utah County.
And we, it was a leadership

2369
02:32:25,720 --> 02:32:27,560
meeting.
And he stood up and he said,

2370
02:32:27,560 --> 02:32:29,840
brethren, we've been very good
about passing along the

2371
02:32:29,840 --> 02:32:35,360
authority of the priesthood, but
we've done a really poor job of

2372
02:32:35,360 --> 02:32:37,800
teaching men how to stand in the
power of the priesthood.

2373
02:32:39,040 --> 02:32:42,800
And I thought, wow, that's,
that's quite a, a, an

2374
02:32:44,160 --> 02:32:48,160
indictment.
But nonetheless, there is truth

2375
02:32:48,160 --> 02:32:52,960
to that, that, that those keys
can be held in escrow and not be

2376
02:32:52,960 --> 02:32:57,720
able to be really accessed in
the power thereof until somebody

2377
02:32:57,720 --> 02:33:01,240
is acting in righteousness.
Now, there can be a transfer of

2378
02:33:01,240 --> 02:33:04,280
title, so to speak, right there,
that sort of thing.

2379
02:33:04,840 --> 02:33:07,640
But that's up to the individuals
involved to access that.

2380
02:33:07,920 --> 02:33:10,120
You just made me think that
using the word title.

2381
02:33:10,400 --> 02:33:12,120
That just gave me a very good
analogy.

2382
02:33:12,160 --> 02:33:17,280
I see it here is that you have
people that have legal title to

2383
02:33:17,280 --> 02:33:18,240
a house.
Yep.

2384
02:33:19,120 --> 02:33:24,960
That house may in under certain
stewardship will completely be

2385
02:33:25,400 --> 02:33:28,800
run down.
The weeds will pop up

2386
02:33:28,800 --> 02:33:32,200
everywhere, nothing will be
maintained and it will be in sad

2387
02:33:32,200 --> 02:33:34,680
shape.
But he has legal title to it.

2388
02:33:35,520 --> 02:33:37,680
Well, he passes that on to
someone else.

2389
02:33:38,960 --> 02:33:41,560
That other person can do
completely different with it.

2390
02:33:42,200 --> 02:33:45,320
But the, the, the important
thing here is the legal title.

2391
02:33:45,560 --> 02:33:47,520
Yes, does pass on.
Yep.

2392
02:33:47,920 --> 02:33:50,040
Yep.
Absolutely.

2393
02:33:50,120 --> 02:33:53,840
And so I, I wanted to talk a
little bit about that, but I do

2394
02:33:53,840 --> 02:33:59,240
want to, to get, get back to the
point here that hypno regressive

2395
02:33:59,240 --> 02:34:03,240
therapy is not a good way of
extracting evidence.

2396
02:34:03,760 --> 02:34:07,040
And if I'm not mistaken, because
look, I do my homework, right?

2397
02:34:07,080 --> 02:34:14,360
And, and long before I decided I
would, I would participate with

2398
02:34:14,360 --> 02:34:17,560
the Thompson line, I wanted to
do my own homework.

2399
02:34:19,440 --> 02:34:23,880
That evidence, evidence was
taken to the, to the prosecuting

2400
02:34:23,880 --> 02:34:28,160
attorney and the prosecuting
attorney laughed it out of his

2401
02:34:28,160 --> 02:34:30,640
office.
He said, I, I can't use this.

2402
02:34:31,480 --> 02:34:33,920
He's like, this is hokey at
best.

2403
02:34:34,720 --> 02:34:40,160
So there was an effort made and
the effort was laughable because

2404
02:34:40,160 --> 02:34:45,360
quite frankly, the, the, the
evidence is laughable.

2405
02:34:46,280 --> 02:34:49,640
And, and look for anyone who was
abused, I, I am so sorry that

2406
02:34:49,640 --> 02:34:51,960
you had to endure that.
And there are many cases where

2407
02:34:51,960 --> 02:34:56,560
that, that abuse is legitimate.
Just had a young woman on that,

2408
02:34:56,560 --> 02:34:59,560
that really bore her heart in
the, in the, the spirit board

2409
02:34:59,560 --> 02:35:01,680
testimony that she really
endured those things.

2410
02:35:03,080 --> 02:35:07,920
But in this case, I think we
have to look at it and if we're

2411
02:35:07,920 --> 02:35:13,000
honest in our assessments, I
would be very nervous,

2412
02:35:13,800 --> 02:35:18,840
persecute, prosecute somebody
for hypno, regressive therapy.

2413
02:35:18,840 --> 02:35:19,760
Thanks.
So.

2414
02:35:22,280 --> 02:35:25,120
Much and it seems to be that
it's just the three right there

2415
02:35:25,120 --> 02:35:28,200
were there.
There's rumors of others but

2416
02:35:28,200 --> 02:35:32,520
nothing I can point back to.
Well, they're, they're kind of

2417
02:35:32,720 --> 02:35:37,760
on a Segway here.
No, no Segway tangent on a

2418
02:35:37,760 --> 02:35:46,800
tangent on a tangent here.
I hesitate to bring this up

2419
02:35:46,800 --> 02:35:49,160
because it involves people that
probably wouldn't be comfortable

2420
02:35:49,160 --> 02:35:55,440
nor willing to talk, you know,
publicly about this, and I don't

2421
02:35:55,440 --> 02:35:59,200
really want to say too much to
compromise them in any way.

2422
02:36:02,240 --> 02:36:09,680
However, a good friend of mine
did get the packet of and I'll

2423
02:36:09,680 --> 02:36:14,800
put in quotations evidence
because he, he was, he wanted to

2424
02:36:14,800 --> 02:36:18,320
know for himself and he, he was
Privy to it because he was one

2425
02:36:18,320 --> 02:36:23,480
of the sons of Joe Thompson and
was still a son of Joe Thompson.

2426
02:36:23,480 --> 02:36:25,160
But you know.
I know what you mean, yeah.

2427
02:36:27,160 --> 02:36:30,360
But anyway, he took a look at it
and he shared it with me.

2428
02:36:32,040 --> 02:36:34,800
And there's the three that I
mentioned, but there was an

2429
02:36:34,800 --> 02:36:36,840
extra 1.
And he said the the first three

2430
02:36:36,840 --> 02:36:42,800
he said were they lacked a lot
of credibility, he said, but one

2431
02:36:42,800 --> 02:36:46,640
of them was credible.
So he decided to go talk to that

2432
02:36:46,640 --> 02:36:49,440
one lady who's one of his
sisters.

2433
02:36:51,760 --> 02:36:55,000
And when he brought it up to
her, she was upset.

2434
02:36:57,240 --> 02:37:01,640
And he says, is this true?
And she said I didn't write

2435
02:37:01,640 --> 02:37:03,240
that.
Oh.

2436
02:37:03,360 --> 02:37:06,160
And you said she said that she
was upset that somebody put her

2437
02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:08,640
signature or her claimed her
name on it.

2438
02:37:09,000 --> 02:37:15,360
Are you kidding?
So someone wrote it for and then

2439
02:37:15,360 --> 02:37:17,760
brought the document and said I
just need you to sign this.

2440
02:37:18,120 --> 02:37:26,080
Now I want to and doing that
that that we really don't know

2441
02:37:26,440 --> 02:37:30,520
who authored it, but we do know
that it was presented to the

2442
02:37:30,520 --> 02:37:34,640
council.
And but see the the problem I

2443
02:37:34,640 --> 02:37:37,120
have here is they didn't do
their due diligence and and

2444
02:37:37,120 --> 02:37:38,720
literally talk to everyone
involved.

2445
02:37:40,280 --> 02:37:44,040
And maybe it's just a failing of
mankind.

2446
02:37:44,040 --> 02:37:46,920
It's not necessarily that girl
or evil or anything, but like in

2447
02:37:46,920 --> 02:37:49,960
my case, when I was thrown out
of the group the first time,

2448
02:37:52,440 --> 02:37:56,320
nobody talked to me beforehand
to get my side of the story of

2449
02:37:56,320 --> 02:37:57,720
anything.
Correct.

2450
02:37:57,720 --> 02:38:00,800
Yeah.
Judgement was pronounced on me

2451
02:38:00,880 --> 02:38:03,840
without hearing anything from my
side of it.

2452
02:38:06,080 --> 02:38:08,800
And, you know, I'm sure they got
plenty on that, that they could,

2453
02:38:08,920 --> 02:38:11,560
you know, go after me on stuff
because I'm not a perfect

2454
02:38:11,560 --> 02:38:14,680
person.
But I think it's a basic thing.

2455
02:38:15,640 --> 02:38:16,600
Right.
And you?

2456
02:38:16,720 --> 02:38:17,880
Want to see you?
Yes.

2457
02:38:18,240 --> 02:38:19,880
To hear both sides of the story.
Yep.

2458
02:38:20,240 --> 02:38:22,520
And I'm I'm not an isolated
case.

2459
02:38:22,520 --> 02:38:27,600
I knew of several were releases
were given on marriages when the

2460
02:38:27,600 --> 02:38:30,880
husband was never spoken to.
His wife was just granted a

2461
02:38:30,880 --> 02:38:37,280
release because she said, you
know, said my husband next and,

2462
02:38:38,600 --> 02:38:42,280
you know, made allegations about
their husband one way or the

2463
02:38:42,280 --> 02:38:44,400
other.
They could be as innocuous as he

2464
02:38:44,400 --> 02:38:47,280
losing his testimony or
something like that.

2465
02:38:48,560 --> 02:38:52,160
And releases were granted.
And when they never talked to

2466
02:38:52,160 --> 02:38:56,400
the guy, yeah, I'm sorry.
But, you know, I think due

2467
02:38:56,400 --> 02:39:00,640
diligence should be given
absolutely to look into the

2468
02:39:00,640 --> 02:39:02,760
truth of the matter.
Absolute.

2469
02:39:03,960 --> 02:39:07,960
No, it isn't.
It is an interesting time to to

2470
02:39:07,960 --> 02:39:11,880
look back and and look on and
look, I got, I got hopes that

2471
02:39:11,880 --> 02:39:15,400
that there's one more of these
coming around this the same

2472
02:39:15,400 --> 02:39:18,800
topic and in the same time
period, because I think I think

2473
02:39:18,800 --> 02:39:23,480
it does need to be to be talked
about and flushed out, right.

2474
02:39:23,880 --> 02:39:27,520
Well, it's interesting that you
say that because currently in

2475
02:39:27,520 --> 02:39:31,480
the mainstream LDS, there's
allegations being made of Satano

2476
02:39:31,560 --> 02:39:36,880
satanic ritual abuse and a lot
of it is under the same

2477
02:39:37,720 --> 02:39:40,560
hypnotherapy, hypnotherapy
things.

2478
02:39:41,200 --> 02:39:44,240
And some of it has credibility
based on the fact that some of

2479
02:39:44,240 --> 02:39:49,080
it is based on a real case.
But there's allegations made

2480
02:39:49,080 --> 02:39:52,000
beyond that which.
Is absolutely, absolutely.

2481
02:39:52,000 --> 02:39:55,120
And look, Full disclosure, I
didn't, you know, I told you

2482
02:39:55,120 --> 02:39:59,120
this, I, I did a podcast with a
guy who said he was going to, he

2483
02:39:59,120 --> 02:40:03,000
had all the information, all the
document and but it's hokey.

2484
02:40:03,280 --> 02:40:05,640
Right.
Like I have no doubt that there

2485
02:40:05,640 --> 02:40:08,960
was that, that the Hamlin case,
something really happened there,

2486
02:40:08,960 --> 02:40:10,000
right?
Right.

2487
02:40:10,280 --> 02:40:15,480
But all the adjacent stuff comes
from hypno regressive therapy.

2488
02:40:16,080 --> 02:40:20,120
And then when I see the, the
documents for evidence, and

2489
02:40:20,120 --> 02:40:23,360
they're all Word documents,
right, which can be just easily

2490
02:40:23,360 --> 02:40:26,600
edited, I, I tend to, to raise
an eyebrow.

2491
02:40:26,600 --> 02:40:30,280
That's not an official document.
I, as a man who works with

2492
02:40:30,280 --> 02:40:33,160
public records, I understand
what it takes to do that.

2493
02:40:33,160 --> 02:40:36,080
That doesn't, that doesn't reach
the smell test.

2494
02:40:38,680 --> 02:40:42,000
And so I, I tend to look at that
a little bit and, and with a

2495
02:40:42,000 --> 02:40:46,200
raised eyebrow and, and we got
the same thing here, right?

2496
02:40:46,200 --> 02:40:50,600
The evidence, the evidence isn't
just shaky.

2497
02:40:50,600 --> 02:40:53,880
It's, it's, it, it can't hold
weight.

2498
02:40:54,720 --> 02:40:57,640
And, and I think it's super
important that that we take a

2499
02:40:57,640 --> 02:41:01,440
look at that.
And also I, I'm not a guy who

2500
02:41:01,440 --> 02:41:03,440
likes seeing justice go on for
very long.

2501
02:41:04,720 --> 02:41:08,080
I feel like if, if, if
something's been out there that

2502
02:41:08,080 --> 02:41:11,720
isn't right, it and you have the
opportunity to address and

2503
02:41:11,720 --> 02:41:17,400
correct it, you probably should.
And this, this has been one that

2504
02:41:17,400 --> 02:41:20,640
as I've studied and I've looked
at and like I said, I looked at

2505
02:41:20,640 --> 02:41:24,360
it long before I decided to
participate in, in, in working

2506
02:41:24,360 --> 02:41:27,440
with the Thompson line here that
that I wanted to make sure that

2507
02:41:27,440 --> 02:41:29,360
my IS were dotted and my T's
were crossed.

2508
02:41:29,360 --> 02:41:32,040
And everything I looked at
pointed to kind of a snow job

2509
02:41:32,040 --> 02:41:36,880
that happened more than to an
actual case of abuse.

2510
02:41:36,880 --> 02:41:40,280
That was being route it out
right.

2511
02:41:40,280 --> 02:41:42,920
And, and look, if there is abuse
going on in groups, you need to

2512
02:41:42,920 --> 02:41:47,120
route root it out bias pull it
up by the roots because you

2513
02:41:47,120 --> 02:41:50,440
don't want that crap
metastasizing inside of your

2514
02:41:50,440 --> 02:41:53,000
organization or something, a
fatal cancer.

2515
02:41:53,800 --> 02:41:57,440
And so you do need to remove it.
But I don't think this was one

2516
02:41:57,440 --> 02:42:02,200
of those cases.
And so that, that's, that's kind

2517
02:42:02,200 --> 02:42:05,200
of where I fall on it.
And, and I felt like, OK, it's,

2518
02:42:05,200 --> 02:42:08,160
it's one of those lines now
that's starting to to do things.

2519
02:42:08,160 --> 02:42:11,240
It's probably good to take a
look at it and and figure out

2520
02:42:11,240 --> 02:42:14,640
what right where it comes from.
But Sean, that's pretty much all

2521
02:42:14,640 --> 02:42:16,000
I had.
Is there anything else you want

2522
02:42:16,000 --> 02:42:18,000
to wrap up with before we get
out of here?

2523
02:42:18,240 --> 02:42:24,960
Yes, I just like to.
I was just like to repeat a

2524
02:42:24,960 --> 02:42:30,120
statement made to me by a few
then to what is as one of the

2525
02:42:30,200 --> 02:42:33,640
reasons he knew that brother
Joe's accusations were false.

2526
02:42:34,960 --> 02:42:39,320
Now, of course, this isn't
something that's going to, you

2527
02:42:39,360 --> 02:42:46,320
know, be forensic in any way.
But he said, he said to me, you

2528
02:42:46,320 --> 02:42:49,080
know how I know he's he's he
says, you know how I know he's

2529
02:42:49,080 --> 02:42:50,280
innocent?
I says how's that?

2530
02:42:52,160 --> 02:42:59,600
Says the Book of Mormon tells us
that a good man does not produce

2531
02:42:59,600 --> 02:43:06,240
evil fruit, nor does an A wicked
man produce good fruit 100% And

2532
02:43:06,240 --> 02:43:07,960
he says, what do you think of
this community?

2533
02:43:08,000 --> 02:43:13,120
I says I love this community.
And he says do you think that's

2534
02:43:13,120 --> 02:43:16,440
the fruit of an evil man?
Said no.

2535
02:43:18,400 --> 02:43:21,680
Now, the reason I say that too
is because I have an

2536
02:43:21,680 --> 02:43:28,320
appreciation beyond what most of
the hearers will have and how,

2537
02:43:28,360 --> 02:43:33,520
you know, with me having said
that, as I worked in provincial

2538
02:43:33,520 --> 02:43:37,480
or rural Mexico quite a bit and
I could see how backward some of

2539
02:43:37,480 --> 02:43:39,560
those people could be in some of
those areas.

2540
02:43:39,920 --> 02:43:44,400
I'm talking about superstitious
and a lot of them are

2541
02:43:44,400 --> 02:43:47,400
uneducated.
It's hard to get across ideas.

2542
02:43:49,400 --> 02:43:54,760
And when this community started,
I was told that they were a lice

2543
02:43:54,760 --> 02:43:57,040
ridden community with open
source.

2544
02:43:58,800 --> 02:44:03,920
Well, by the time I was there in
the early 90s, this colony of

2545
02:44:03,920 --> 02:44:06,120
this town was the only one that
had paved streets.

2546
02:44:07,880 --> 02:44:12,000
All the houses had beautiful
rose or, you know, flowered

2547
02:44:12,000 --> 02:44:15,960
gardens.
They had their their food

2548
02:44:15,960 --> 02:44:19,440
gardens are really tended really
pretty.

2549
02:44:20,080 --> 02:44:23,440
A lot of their children are very
well kept.

2550
02:44:23,440 --> 02:44:29,560
Very, a lot of their, their
youth were becoming doctors,

2551
02:44:29,800 --> 02:44:35,280
engineers.
They had a choir that sang

2552
02:44:35,280 --> 02:44:40,200
beautifully.
They built the temple.

2553
02:44:43,120 --> 02:44:45,320
And it was you could.
Yeah.

2554
02:44:45,320 --> 02:44:48,320
I mean, it was.
I had never seen anything like

2555
02:44:48,320 --> 02:44:50,640
that in in any area like that in
Mexico.

2556
02:44:53,040 --> 02:44:57,040
It was beautiful to behold and
to say that that is the fruit of

2557
02:44:57,040 --> 02:44:59,480
an evil man, I just don't see
him having the time to do

2558
02:44:59,480 --> 02:45:00,400
anything.
Exactly.

2559
02:45:00,840 --> 02:45:02,200
Sure.
You know.

2560
02:45:02,200 --> 02:45:06,040
No, 100% and and we saw we see
the fruit continue to grow,

2561
02:45:06,120 --> 02:45:08,400
right.
We saw it when when Robert came

2562
02:45:08,400 --> 02:45:11,720
up here and started working and
now seeing it again with, with

2563
02:45:11,720 --> 02:45:15,560
the group there here in Missouri
that that built this temple.

2564
02:45:15,800 --> 02:45:18,000
Yes, it does seem to produce
fruit.

2565
02:45:18,000 --> 02:45:22,240
Wherever it goes.
And that, that again, is, is

2566
02:45:22,240 --> 02:45:24,480
probably a pretty good
indication as well.

2567
02:45:25,560 --> 02:45:28,360
Look, and that's not to take
away from anybody else's

2568
02:45:28,360 --> 02:45:30,120
priesthood authority either,
right?

2569
02:45:30,120 --> 02:45:34,400
I do think that there's other
valid lines out there working in

2570
02:45:34,400 --> 02:45:37,480
the priesthood and, and trying
to move things forward as well.

2571
02:45:38,760 --> 02:45:41,120
Dude, good stuff.
Awesome.

2572
02:45:41,240 --> 02:45:42,840
Thanks for doing this, dude.
Thank you.

2573
02:45:43,360 --> 02:45:44,080
Bye everybody.

Episode #227: Examining The Thompson Priesthood Line W/Sean Anderson

Listen On

Recent Episodes

Support On