Episode #227: Examining The Thompson Priesthood Line W/Sean Anderson

0:14 Hey everybody, Just wanted to kind of set the table historically here with this episode. For those of you who may not be super familiar with Mormon fundamentalist history, wanted to make sure there was no confusion here. So in the early parts of the fundamentalist movement, once that becomes a movement, we see that there's a council that's set up in southern Utah, consists of seven men. Later there would be a split in that council and then there would be another council up along the Wasatch Front, kind of up around Salt Lake in that area. So for the most part, as we talk about the council, we're going to be talking about that. That council up around Salt Lake, it it's often referred to as the Allred group. Just kind of keep that in mind that most of the time that's the council we're referring to.

1:02 I just didn't want any confusion. If you want more information on how that all came to be, I would strongly recommend that you go at listen to episodes 8283 and 80, excuse me, 8283 and 134. And those should give you kind of a, a fuller picture of what's going on. So again, when we refer to the council here, for the most part, not always, but the vast majority of the time we're talking about the council up around Salt Lake or the All Red group. With that, let's just go ahead and let's just jump right into our conversation, dude. We're going to talk about some stuff today, and this, like this one here is, I think, going to fire some people up because the man himself is surrounded with a little bit of controversy.

1:53 And we're going to give some historical context here. Now, before we start, I do feel like it's fair that we make mention that both you and I have benefited from the Joe Thompson priesthood line. Yeah, which we're going to talk about. And so in the interest of being transparent, I want to make it clear that, yes, I have been, I have benefited in priesthood ordinances from that line. However, I'm going to be very careful on what I say here because I do want to get down to the bottom of some things. So even though I have benefited from that, I'm going to do my absolute best to be impartial here as we talk about this so that we can get down to the bottom of things.

2:37 Because I think it's important in matters of authority that we really dissect these things out. And I think likewise, I think we would be remiss also if we didn't talk about authority versus power when it comes to priesthood. OK, so where do you want to start? Let's start with who who Joe Thompson was. Well, I I personally consider Joe Thompson as a mentor. You knew him personally. Yes, OK. And Joe Thompson was part of the council in the Allred Group, also known as the AUB, from the 1950s till about 1993.

3:20 Right. And he was a part of a group of men that were called by Joseph Musser in in either 1953 or 1950. 4 So he was acquainted with Musser personal. Yes, he was, and he told me that. And Joe Joseph Musser's later, later life, he acted as a chauffeur for him, driving him to and fro. And at the time that that he was called, he was 27 years old, if if I recall correctly. He was 27 years old when he was the chauffeur for for Joseph Musser. Yes, OK. As also when he was received as ordination from Joseph Musser. OK, all right.

4:05 And let's just for, for the sake of of being clear here, right? We want to treat these things lightly, but I think it's also important that we call it out. When you say ordination, you mean second anointing. Is that correct? OK, All right. So he directly receives the second anointing under the hand of Joseph Musser. I don't know if it's directly. But it's under his authority. It's under his authority. OK, It could be that he was. Yeah, directly. But I'm I, I never asked that detail. OK. All right. Good enough. So let me ask you this then again in the interest of being fair, if if you don't know for sure whose hand he received it under, how are we sure that he received it?

4:58 I don't think you can be sure other than. Than what he purports. Then what he purports and and quite frankly, when I when he told me the story, I felt he was telling the truth. The spirit bore witness. Let me ask you this were was was the AUB at that time ever putting men on the council who hadn't received their second anointing? And by that time you mean in the early 1950s? Yes. I don't know if I can answer that, but I do know that the original members received it according to their own testimony. OK, All right, good enough.

5:40 Yeah, that's, that's all I was curious about is, is you know what kind of record we had there. But look at some point when it gets down to priesthood claims, I mean, look, we, we have one priesthood claim that is kind of in regards to what appears to be a woman having her, you know, her regrets about not marrying the prophet, right? So I'm, I'm willing to be open to all those things. I was just kind of curious more than anything else. And, and you're right, I think given, given the time period we were in, in those days where you were trying to keep the church and the government off your back, record keeping was not just not encouraged, was kind of discouraged in a lot of ways, right. I, I would, I would, yeah, I would say that. You, because because you, you didn't want to be given fuel to the to the authorities as they're coming after you and, and these types of ordinances and plural marriage went hand in hand in those days.

6:36 Yes. And I'd like to make a point that since this was in the period OF1935354, if someone can correct me on that as to the exact year, but that was also the time when you had the raid on shortcut in the previous to that you had you had a raid on on polygamous leaders that took place in 1944, right? Absolutely. So definitely I don't think that they would be willing to volunteer a lot of information. Right. Yep. And and that's what the historical record does bear out, right? We do have exceptions to that rule, like during the post post manifesto polygamy in the LDS Church, the apostles did keep a journal simply because there was a feeling that at some point all those things would come back together.

7:25 Right. And the the you'd have to rectify that with records. But it doesn't necessarily surprise me that we don't have a written record somewhere of that. Given that if he, if somebody was to read something that said second anointing, so and so got it, you could pretty much guarantee that they were most likely in those days engaged in some sort of fundamentalist activity. So they would be very careful as they went forward not to just disclose that. I would like to say that we're not entirely bereft of record on that. We do have the Joseph Lyman Jessup Journal that mentions aspects of the second anointing referring to him and his wife. And you know, some have argued that he did it contrary to ruling Allred's advice and things of that nature. But there's no evidence to purport that that was the case. And to me, the fact that it does date back to either 1853, I mean 195354 actually gives it a lot of weight. Gotcha, gotcha.

8:26 OK, so was was Joe raised Mormon? Was he a convert to Mormonism? What was kind of his? Background. He was never a member of the church. You know, the mainstream church. Really. So he comes in cold, straight to fundamentalism, right? His mother, her name is Mary Anderson. OK. And his father's name was Orlando Thompson. Orlando Thompson was from South Africa. Oh, OK. But anyway, his mother, his father died when he was just a baby as if I recall. And his mother, when she remarried, she remarried a man by the name of Kilgro as being the the last name who happens to be the actual father of Lynn Thompson, who later became the president of the AUB. Interesting.

9:15 OK. But anyway, he actually, he actually told me a story that if it hadn't been for his mother, he probably would have grown up being a Catholic. And that was because when he was a little a little boy, his mother was having a hard time making ends meet as a widow. And and he says that she put him in a in a Catholic minus or the convent to be taken care of. And when she felt she had better control of her ability to take care of him, she went to go get him. And they were reluctant to give him up to her. So he she went and took him.

9:56 Oh wow. And took him away from there. So we could be talking about Joe Thompson as a Catholic theologian had had his mom not been a little a little vociferous in getting him out of there. Right. Interesting. So how does he encounter Mormonism? Well, I believe is through his mother. You know, I think she was, I'm not entirely sure, but I, I honestly believe she had ties with fundamentalist Mormonism at that time. And so he grew up as a fundamentalist from pretty much the inception. All right, interesting. OK. So when, when does he join up with like fundamentalism as we would know it? Is he around?

10:39 Is he active it during the times of the Short Creek? Creek aids that sort of, yeah. He was, he was at, he actually lived in Short Creek for a time, OK. And and he had his first wife there, if I recall well, while still at Short Creek. And he was involved in the United Effort plan. Yep. As a young man, as a matter of fact, in my, my dad's stepfather's journals, he mentions him, you know, as as part of that community already. And that Joe, I think, and Joe Thompson at that time would have been about 2224. OK. If I'm not mistaken it was around 1943 so I guess that makes him like 21 because he was born in 1924. OK.

11:25 All right. So when does he start to become acquainted with Ruin Allred? Well, I would say pretty early on, I don't know exactly when to be exact, but. Because Ruin wasn't living in Short Creek, right? Ruin was living in Southern California, if I'm not mistaken, for a while. And was Musser's personal position right? I'm not too sure about that myself, but I do know that Ruin was acquainted with the fundamentalists. See a lot of that. What I'm telling you is right out of the journal of, of my, my dad's stepfather, a man by the name of George Kelmar. And he writes in there speaking about ruling Allred and he mentions Joseph Thompson as well.

12:08 Now, at the time, Joseph Thompson would have been 21 years old and ruling would have been, you know, at least 10 years old, right? Or more. OK. All right. So I'm trying to get the the feel for for when Joe kind of throws. And again, I got friends on both sides of this, so please know I'm not trying to stir up any controversy here. I'm just trying to examine the man's life. So how does he become acquainted with Ruin then? Do we know that at all? I think. I don't know. No, I don't know that. But I do know that a lot of he was already engaged in meetings with Ruin Allred through Joseph Thompson, through Joseph Musser. Excuse me?

12:54 OK. All right. So he, so he probably meets him through Musser, right. He was acquainted with Musser and then he, he comes up north, so to speak from Short Creek with Allred and those guys. And it's at that time that Musser passes along the authority or second anointing. I'm not positive of whether he comes up north at that time. OK, that's not part of my recollection as to when he made the move or anything like that, but I do know that he was aligned with Joseph Musser around that time and he told me honestly about the that they had a controversy regarding 1 of Joseph Lyman Jessup's daughters being married without the knowledge of Joseph Lyman Jessup. He apparently had a 15 year old daughter that was married without his knowledge.

13:48 That's a problem. And it created a controversy that involved Joseph Musser, Joseph Lyman Jessup, where they went down and argued that with the Short Creek Council. I see. I see. OK, All right, so let's let's wait. Once the AUB is established and going, what kind of columns does Joe hold inside the AUB? He's in the, he's in the council. He's in. He's on the presiding council, yes. And have a break. Yeah, Yeah. Sorry about. That no, you're good.

14:29 Hey, so I'm going to ask a few questions here about Joe, Joe Thompson's ministry while he's in the AUB, because often times you can get a feel for someone based on what it is they, they feel like the Lord's put on their hearts, right? So while he's on the council, what seems to be his big push in terms of, you know, like if we look at the LDS church, some prophet, some presidents of the church have been all about the Book of Mormon, right? We're going to flood the earth with the Book of Mormon. Others it's been temples. We're going to build temple like nobody's business. Did Joe have a specific thrust that you can look back on and say, you know, this was really important to Joe and this is where he spent a good portion of his ministry out?

15:13 Yes. I don't know if I can actually speak to, you know, the entirety of his, of his tenure and the council, but I can say that personally with my personal experiences with him, his big push was the fullness of the priesthood and he called it the fullness. That was generally how he referred to it. Which is another it's another sentence for the second yes. And and when you say his, that was one of his big thrusts in which way like. He saw it as being absolutely necessary for preserving the earth and in what he told me once was the what he said to me is that the priesthood, the sorry the prophecy of Malachi that we read about in the before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

16:10 He shall send forth Elijah who who shall turn the parts of the children, you know to the father. And then yeah, yeah. And then we have the the Pearl of grade Price version where where Moroni comes and tells Joseph Smith that same prophecy and he says it three times, but each on the last time he adds right stuff to it and where it made makes the mention of if it were not so the earth would be utterly wasted. It is coming. Right. So he saw it as imperative that this has to be on the earth at the time of Christ's return. He was pretty instrumental about getting the temple built down in Mexico too, wasn't he? Oh yes, very much so.

16:53 Which would make sense because those two things would absolutely go together. And and so. May I say something about absolutely why he was involved in Mexico to begin with? Absolutely. When Joseph Muster was still alive, the man that was in charge of counseling with the Saints in Mexico. And by the saying that I'm talking about what is known as Colonia Industrial in Ozuma state of Mexico right now. Colonia Industrial means industrial colony right within the town called Ozuma, which is in the state of Mexico.

17:33 Right. Which is located just South of Mexico City at the base of the volcano Popocatepetl. Gotcha. Now when Joseph Mustard died and ruling, Allred assumed the leadership of the Allred group. That's we used to call it back then. Very few of us refer to it as AUB back in the day when he assumed the leadership there, he of necessity couldn't continue being the the counselor down there for the people of Mexico. And Joe Thompson was appointed to do that. OK. Now, Joe Thompson told me that he was always more, that he was always more, what's the word more affixed to Joseph Musser than he was ruling Allred?

18:34 He he actually recognized ruling Allred's authority and calling and everything, but he always felt that his mentor was Joseph Musser. OK, that tells me he's working a lot more with Musser early on than anything else. So he was more of a Musser acolyte than maybe a an an Allred acolyte. He saw himself more as a as an Allred period. OK. All right, no, that's good to know. See, that gives us some context right there. But do you feel like him and him and ruin Allred did have a good relationship or do you feel like it was strained at all or?

19:15 I would think that they had a good relationship, as far as I know. OK, I do believe that like any relationships, they had their strain here and there, sure, but I do think that there was some strain in certain times, but and he did allude to that cause, but it wasn't. And I I will say that one of the things that was brought to my attention is that rule in Allred made a prophecy that that Joseph would lead his own group eventually some to that effect and they saw that as a negative. OK, I see. And you know, I asked the question, but I also want to make it clear that just because the guys aren't getting along and every aspect doesn't necessarily mean they're enemies, right? We can see this with with Orson High or Pratt High. Pratt, Which one gave you Brigham? Such stuff over there.

20:11 Orson, Pratt, Pratt. Thank you. I get my Orsons mixed up. Orson Pratt and Brigham Young. They fight endlessly and yet still. Kind of have each other's backs, right, right. And I think that it's, it's important as we ask these questions to realize that you can work with guys that you don't necessarily always get along with their seat eye to eye. So I think that gives us a real good feeling here of what this is. Joe Thompson is a guy who who darn near becomes a Catholic. He ends up going straight from, you know, not being involved in anything, straight into fundamentalism, Never a member of the LDS Church. Is down in Short Creek during during some of the rough times. Ends up moving up north, so to speak. Is ordained by by Muster himself and seems to do a lot of work on the council with the AUB pushing towards temple work and the perpetuation of the fullness of the gospel. So that gives us a good idea who he is. Now this is where your specific reminisces. Reminiscence, will memories, excuse me, will become much more important because you knew him personally. So what year do you join the AUB? Officially, I joined the AUB in 1992. Yeah, in in the spring of 92.

21:38 I started going to meetings in, in December of 91. And I went to meetings all throughout before my baptism. And I have to point out that I was attending Christian meetings as well. And I was informed later on that it wasn't proper for me to be doing that. Gotcha. But. You know, and how soon after you, you, you start attending with the AUB, not even necessarily joined, but attending. Do you? Do you meet Joe Thompson? I didn't. I It's kind of funny because the first time I tried to meet him, I went up to shake his hand because I really liked a discourse that he gave. But I'll be honest with you, I felt kind of snubbed. Really.

22:29 Yes, because I went to shake his hand and he looked at me kind of with suspicion. And so I remember feeling, you know, that I was somewhat snubbed because. And, you know, to be fair, I think they had a lot of guys that that would flatter people and would say things like that. And I think they would get and then later on show other colors, right? So I think they were kind of jaded. But that's just my opinion. I can just offer you my opinion of that. But I remember getting my feelings a little hurt because I went. I really enjoyed what you said. My name is Sean Anderson. And he was like, yeah, OK. And he walked away. That was my first encounter, you know, personally with Joe Thompson.

23:10 And that would have been, you know, somewhere in 1992. Gotcha, gotcha. So when, when do you start striking up like a meaningful relationship with him 'cause you've talked with me about that quite a bit. At what point do you do you develop that that personal relationship with with Joe? It wasn't until. I didn't develop that relationship with him until early on in 1994, which would have been somewhere between January and April of 94. I can't pinpoint the exact time. Right. How's that get struck?

23:52 It got struck because in late 1993, and if I recall, it was in December. But I don't hold me to it. Sure. I made a trip. I made a trip of the man by the name of Rob Hender who wanted me to go down as an interpreter for him because he had a, he had a, an interest with a young lady down there. He they've been writing letters or whatever and he asked me to go down as an interpreter. Going down for some senoritas and margaritas. Senoritas, and they would probably say the lack of margaritas, right? But anyway, so I went. I agreed to go down with them and of course he paid for my way and stuff like that and so that helped. Right.

24:39 But anyway, because I I was pretty broke at the time. And it didn't suck. It was probably January in Salt Lake, and you were going South where it's warm. Yeah, I get it. The only part that sucked is the fact that I wouldn't be making any money and and I was not in a good position economically at the time. But I went down with him and to my surprise, when we showed up at the airport, Brother Owen Allred and Marvin Allred were there and I'd, I, it was to my surprise, we sat in seats right next to them and we were on the same flight itinerary all the way down. We had a layover in Dallas, Fort Worth. And then from there we took a flight all the way to Mexico City.

25:25 And on the way down, I don't remember having too much of a conversation with the Brethren. You know, I just. Oh, you're probably at that point, you know, because I'm guessing you're what, mid 20s probably. Yes, 1990. This is 1993. I would have been 26. OK, I would have been I would have been like 1516. Just wanted to throw that out there. OK, six were buds and I enjoy calling you, you know, old Anyway, so you you go down there and you know, you're a young man, right, And all of a sudden you're stuck in the middle of you know what you perceive to be like spiritual giants, right? The the proper MO is to shut the hell up and just see if you can't learn something by by just being quiet. And, and that's, that's how I was. I was just being quiet and, and they weren't on the way down. They weren't too talkative, right? I remember kind of an interesting little thing when we got to Dallas Fort Worth and we had a couple hour layover there. Brother Owen Allred laid down on the floor because he wanted to nap.

26:28 And I remember people coming around and asking is he OK because he's in the elderly gentleman and, and I was, I have to say several times he's fine, he's just napping. OK Side Story. So I worked for a company for years in Boise and it was owned by two old people that had like lived through World War 2 named Carlisle and Maxine. And we had this massive pine tree out front of our office. And Lyle had paid for like some, oh, you know, the steel, really thin steel wire cable to be installed.

27:08 And it's like a pulley system a pop so you can just kind of string lights up. But and he ran power underneath the tree. And one day he's down there in the winter and he's messing, he's messing with the power. I had to step away to go get him a tool that he was messing with. And so Maxine, his wife comes out and see him, sees him under the tree. She doesn't see me. And she goes while are you dead? And she was serious, right? And he goes, no, I'm still here. And she goes, damn it, and then walk back in the house. So that just made me think of that when you said that. So, So what you, you, you're heading down to Mexico here with Joe and not with Joe, with Owen and Owen, Owen and Marvin and going down there doing perp.

27:55 How does that tie into how you met Joe? Well, it ties in that while we were down there, we were down in Mexico, as as you know, I went down to interpret for this Rob Hender, right, for his his romantic interest that he had with the girl there. And they had a an interpreter already assigned and happened to be Moroni Jessup's brother, a man by the name of Bernie Jessup. OK, but Bernie Jessup was also getting married at that time. OK. So he was, to say the least, quite distracted with with arrangements.

28:36 So I was approached by brother Marvin, Marvin Allred Owens brother and and told me of the situation and said, would you be willing to translate for us, interpret for us? I said, well, I'm here with under this agreement with brother Rob Hander. Let me talk to him. So I went to Rob Hander and I asked him and he said, Oh yeah, go ahead. Whatever those guys want, I could consider it a privilege that I brought you down. That's what he said to me. If it's going to serve their interests, even better, right? I said, OK, So I went and told Marvin, he says, and he said that he'd be fine with that. So yeah, you can count on me. And so I went with them to pretty much every interview they had, every discussion they had in a private household, I interpreted their talks.

29:32 I was there for a temple session, I was there for ceilings, I was there for patriarchal blessings. And in particular, they had an A meeting of the solemn assembly of the temple. And in that solemn assembly, Owen Allred got up and he says, and I remember him saying a while back, and you're all witnesses, I was here and I dedicated this, this edifice as a temple or the House of God. Well, I'm here to tell you now that I have no business doing that. So all the ordinances that have been performed here that require a temple are to be considered henceforth null and void. And and he says from now on we will refer to it as an endowment house.

30:30 Well, apparently I wasn't the only one that was shocked by the statement because I looked around and the people looked like they had the rug just pulled out from under them. Oh yeah. Some of them started sobbing. Yeah, because look, even if your living ordinances are so good, which was the purpose of an endowment house, right, Right. It's my understanding that an endowment house is perfectly fine for living ordinances, but to do vicarious work, you really should have a temple. Well, to a degree. Right. Well, yes, but under Owen's interpretation, you could do endowment work and baptisms for the dead, an endowment house, but you couldn't do what he called ceilings. Oh, OK, ceilings and also ceilings of men to men, right. Which had been transpiring, by the way, right in that, in that edifice.

31:22 And when I heard that and I looked at the reaction of the people there. And as a side note, let me point out that when we did 2 order of prayer in that meeting, there's quite a few people in attendance. I would say on just off the top of my head, it seemed like 80 people. And you had some plural families or plural, I don't know what you call them couples, but you know what I mean. Yeah. A. Man and his wife pull up right? Yeah. And so we had a big circle and then the circles within the circle.

32:02 OK, Yep. And I remember when all the signs were offered up in this, it's order of prayer. I remember it looking very beautiful because it was almost like synchronized swimming in a way, you know, where you see all this. And I can tell you I, I've been in, you know, I, I was in doubt in the Mormon in the, the mainstream LDS church. And I never saw anything like it, right? It was, it was, it was beautiful to behold that sacred prayer being done that way.

32:43 But just as a side note. But anyway, I remember thinking at the time, because I'm the one that had to interpret what he just said. Yeah, I remember, I remember being nervous about translating that because I knew the effect it would have on the people. But, you know, being true to the fact, to the fact that I was there to interpret, I did. And I saw them. I saw them. I saw their reaction. Yeah, because according to Owen Allred's definition, you could do baptism and endowments. But that was it, right? OK.

33:24 So let me ask you this, Sean, if that's all that they could do in endowment. How for the dead? Let's let's. For for the dead, but they could do ceilings for the living, is that correct? Yes, OK. All right now. That I could see where that would jerk the rug out from under people, right. You've done all this work for your kindred dead. You've sealed them back together. And now for somebody to come along and say it's it's invalid. What? What was what was Owen Allred's reasoning behind that? Did he give any reasoning behind that? Not really. The reasoning he gave was I had no business doing that. That's all he said.

34:06 He didn't elaborate as to why or why not and any of that, right. So I have my own opinions of what he might have been thinking or whatever, but I have to admit that's purely speculation on my part. Yeah, and look where he's not here to say whether that was right or wrong. We'll stay away from that speculation for now because I think I think that's the wise and probably the the thing to do to be keeping impropriety. So he, he jerks the rug out from under folks that way, right. And, and look, I want to say this, I'm not calling Owen Allred a bad man at all, right? You, you can disagree with somebody without saying that they're a bad person, right? There's nothing that indicates to me that Owen was especially nefarious.

34:55 I think that, you know, from all accounts, he seems to be a good guy. So I want to get that out of the way first. So after that happens, you go to the, you have to translate it. You see the aftermath of, of people's reactions. You go to that, that prayer meeting afterwards, what what goes on that? The prayer meeting that he announced it, but. Oh, it was at the prayer meeting. And then later on, he announced. It to the general. OK. All right. So after that all happens, where what happens next? Well, would have you know what, I forgot one detail. Let me go back previous to that meeting, OK?

35:39 The man who hosted us in his house, that's Rob Hender and myself, right? His name was Hidencio Juarez. He was an elderly man. And he's And one of the first things he asked me if I spoke Mexican. I said, you mean Spanish says no, I mean Mexican. Do you speak Mexican? I said, what do you mean says the language of the Aztecs. I said no, I don't. And he says I do. He says I'm a, I'm Mexica, OK, which is Mexical versus, which is what the Aztecs call themselves. OK. Now a lot of people when they say Aztecs, Aztec denotes where they came from, the land of Ostlan.

36:25 You're right. But when they arrived in the Valley of Mexico, which was back then was known as Meshiko, they knew themselves at the Meshika, right? Or the Meshika? Right. This is where we get the word Mexican from. So where was Aslan at? Well, there's debate on that. My personal opinion, and it was up around the Utah area, OK, because there was a land northward and and they speak of land, you know, landmarks. Oh, OK. Like for instance, in the Utah Valley we have the Mount Timpanogos, yes, which is the sleeping. The sleeping woman. Yes, sleeping woman. Well, next to Popocatepa down in Mexico.

37:07 Popocatepa is the volcano. Yes, right next to it is a mountain they call Ixta Sultan, which means the sleeping woman. OK. And it has the same outline of a sleeping. Woman, I get it. So it looks awful. An awful lot like. Timpanoga, right? And there are some old Spanish maps, you know, dating from the 1700s that denote the Utah area around the Salt Lake region as Aslan. Interesting. But anyway, that's that's a side topic. But no, I lost my train of thought. Where were we? Well, I was saying after, after that prayer meeting you, you were talking about that gentleman. Who was? Who was yes, before the meeting, before it was announced? I forgot to mention also that at that meeting he announced that they dropped Joseph Thompson from the Council and that he would no longer be coming representing the council to those people.

38:04 Oh, so that was part of the announcement. So. So one announcement is it's no longer a temple. Anything done here that required a temple, no one would consider it not done. You'll have to wait until a temple is available to redo that. Second announcement is Joe Thompson's off the council. Right. OK. And this would have been 93. You said 93. Yeah. OK. So, but you you're not real familiar with Joe at this point. But I'm not, I hadn't. I hadn't yet had a personal conversation with. Right. So you're talking to this old Aztec gentleman. Yes. What? What does he say? Well, the things he said is he and he was very proud of the fact that he was an adopted son of Bill Baird.

38:45 OK. Bill Baird was a member of the council as well. Now, Bill Baird had died in December of 92. OK, so and he was very saddened by that. As a matter of fact, he was very emotional and saying how much he he he lamented the loss of Bill Baird, his adopted father, which was interesting because he was older than his adoptive father. Right. That's your hottest, I believe was either in his late 70s or in his 80s. OK. But anyway, he says to me at one point he says brother, brother.

39:26 They called me Cesar. My middle name is Cesar Caesar. Yeah, Caesar. And I don't really like telling people down there my name is Sean because when I went to school, awfully Irish. No, have nothing to do with that. When I say Sean in Mexico, they can't pronounce Sean. They say Chun which is part of Chungo which means monkey, and so they used to make fun of my name and call me Chango. If you want to know what it's like, me and my friend, I'm going to use that on him later, go ahead, OK? But anyway, so I gave him my middle name anyway and he said Hermano Cesar, which means Brother Cesar, can I have a word with you in private?

40:16 And I thought I was in trouble. Right, right. You broke some etiquette. Somewhere, yes, I broke some etiquette somewhere. I was a guest in his house, and his house was built where he had a little courtyard in the middle and rooms around it, right? And I was in one of these rooms and his room was across the little courtyard. So he asked me to go talk to him in his bedroom. Oh geez. So I went over there and he has me sit down at the edge of the bed and he remains standing because, you know, you had a big bed that took up most of the room. And I sat in the corner front edge of the bed. And he remains standing. And he says the Spirit tells me I can trust.

41:01 You. Oh. He says, so I don't want you to repeat anything that is said here with your companion that you came with. Can you agree to that? And I said, yes, I can agree to that. I wouldn't dare to, you know, break any confidence you have for me. And he says, well, I want to start by asking you a question. And I says, what's that? What's happening with brother, with brother Joe referring to Joe Thompson. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, they tell us he's sick and that's why you haven't been seeing him or heard from him. But something tells me there's more going on. Did you know more about it than that? At that time, me, yes, I did, because in August of that same year as when they announced that, Joe was dropped from the council.

41:55 OK. So I did know that I didn't know a lot of details regarding it. I knew I heard rumors of the accusations that were brought against him and things like that. And but officially I knew that he had been dropped from the council because I want to announced it in August the. 23. And I said to him, Joe Thompson's been dropped from the council and he said, why? I says I don't know much about it, but the allegations are that that he was accused of of sexual child molestation.

42:37 And as soon as I said that, he says that's not true. And I said, really? How do you know? And he said, and this is what he said to me. He said, a couple weeks ago I had a visitor in this very room. What do you mean? A visitor that was very resplendent and brilliant. Do you mean very smart? He goes, no, I mean luminous. No, boy. I said, really? He said yes. And he said, and he showed me in vision that we as a people would be going back to Jackson County, Missouri, and that Joe Thompson would be leading the way. Interesting.

43:27 And then he said, but before that day could come, he would be betrayed by his brethren. OK, I said, really? He said yes. Then he says to me, can I trust you that you can keep this between US? And I said, you bet. And it was after that that Brother Owen made the statement about about demoting the template to an endowment house. Wow. So you got kind of blindsided a little bit with two, two shots, right? One is at this point, it doesn't sound like you harbor necessarily any ill will towards Joe Thompson. You mean Owen?

44:07 No, Joe Thompson, because you have the one meeting with him, right, where you just kind of shake his hand so you don't have any ill will. You have no ill will towards Owen. But yet you're really now a little bit right because you have this, it sounds like the this this gentleman who was who was Aztec was carrying a certain spirit about him, right. And it's obviously making, you know, the the spirits obviously bearing some testimony here to you that you feel like, OK, this guy's legit. He's not just, you know, talking junk, right? He's he's he's got got some validity here to him, the spirits carrying the truthfulness of that message.

44:48 Then you immediately go, it sounds like, to the, to the prayer meeting where Owen Allred, you know, says, OK, no longer a temple and an endowment house and Joe Thompson's no longer on the council either, right? And so like, dude, how are you taking that? Your head's got to be spinning here a little bit, right? I mean, you, you, you sounds like you took a left hook and then an uppercut you never saw coming and trying to get your legs under you. How are you processing all this in this time? Well, I have to say to kind of prelude my answer to that is before the controversy with, with Joe Thompson, before that took place, I have to admit it was his talks that were my favorite, right?

45:36 Because when I the first meeting I attended there, uh, Joe Thompson was speaking on the Adam God doctrine in a very I don't even know how to describe it, but all I can say is all I could describe it as is here is 1 speaking as one having authority and not as describes. OK. Because I have heard intellectual speak about it, right, pro and con, but he did it in an authoritative manner. And I'm not talking about authority of I'm in this position therefore, but more authority that he knows the truth of it. Yeah, the words you're carrying, carrying the authority not right, not the the, not the, the supposed authority you get from a position or a title.

46:32 It it the the spirits bearing witness of of what he's talking about in that. Which is, by the way, that was the time when I went out to shake his hand, right? Right where I felt somewhat snubbed. So at any point here, either during this prayer meeting or maybe subsequently after that prayer meeting or on the flight home, do you get to talk to Owen or any of the other counsel that go about what's going on at all? Or are you just kind of in the mode of, you know, I've been hit, hit here a little bit and I'm just going to be quiet and see if I can't make make heads or tails of us before? That let me give you more context before I went on this trip or before the accusations were made public. As a matter of fact, just about two weeks before the accusations even came out, Joe Thompson, he was suffering from renal failure.

47:28 You know, his kidneys were going bad on him, right? So he was in the hospital and I had, by this time I had befriended 2 of his sons. I befriended Leland Thompson and Paul Thompson. OK. And I was getting for some reason, I was giving Paul Thompson a ride home. And on the way home, he says, do you mind if we stop in to visit my dad before we go home and before we you, you Take Me Home. Sure. What's going on? He said, well, he's at the hospital. I'm going to go visit him. OK, That's fine with me. And this is before the. And before the accusations. So we went there, but I didn't do much talking. It was it was Paul. How you doing, Dad and everything.

48:09 But while we were there, brother Owen showed up, Brother Dave Watson showed up, Brother Lamoine Jensen showed up, Moroni Jessup and and his wife Martha or Andrea was there. And you know, they were there visiting him and these other brethren showed up. And I do believe some of the wives were there. I remember seeing some of the wives, some of brother Joe's wives were there. I can't remember them all by name at the time, but they were there and they, they gave him a blessing that, that he could heal or, or whatever. And there was a very strong spirit in there. And there seemed to be a, a brotherhood I saw with these brethren that was, that was pretty, I saw intense caring. And just a couple weeks later, it seemed to all fall apart. And then couple weeks after that or a month or so is when they made the the announcement that he'd been dropped from the council.

49:13 And the charge, the official charge was, which I always considered was a little weird because they didn't specify. They just said unchristian like conduct and unrighteous dominion. Yeah. And we're going to get to those charges later. But anyway, so all this happened before I went to Mexico. So in some ways you can say I was kind of primed right already with what's going on here, right? Not so much knowing what's going on or anything like that is just enough. What's happening now. I was beginning to think what is going on here? Something wasn't making sense to me. It's unsettling. Right, right. Yeah, No, it's it's unsettling when you you go from the spirit of that hospital room being that of intense brotherhood and love to. Almost complete antagonism.

50:03 Right there. That's that's, that's a quick turn around, right? And so by the time I'm in Mexico and, and then Brother Owen makes the announcement about the temple, I've got some serious concerns now, especially after the conversation I had with Fidancio Juarez, right. So during that time, I didn't say anything to anybody about the feelings I was beginning to to engend, to generate. At the time I wasn't saying anything to any anybody, but I made it. I made it a matter of importance that I have to go talk with Joe Thompson when I got back, OK.

50:50 And one of the reasons is while I was down there and I was translating for Owen and Marvin, we had a meeting with the president of the colony, a man by then by the name of Rosendo de la Cruz. And in that meeting, Rosendo de la Cruz reported to Owen and Marvin that Joseph Thompson had offered him a second anointing, which alarmed both of those men, especially Owen. I remember Owen saying, Can you believe Joe was doing that down here? But anyway, when I got back after my trip, I never did, you know, speak about some of these concerns with with anybody I was traveling with. Well, yeah, because I kind of knew what what their views are going to be.

51:49 Right. And I know that if I raise some of this, it would, you know, call me into question. Right. But when I got back, I remember talking to Moroni Jessup about it. As a matter of fact, it was him, his wife, my, my first wife and myself who were there talking. And during that time I saw I really feel like we need to go talk with Brother Joe and and Moroni, Jessup says. I think we had to go tonight. It was already, mind you, about 8 o'clock 8:00 PM and I was living in American Fork. And so before going though, I suggested, let me call Paul, Paul Thompson and see if that would be a good idea. So I called him and told him that I wanted. He says, yeah, my dad's over at a blessing somebody's house. They just were moving into a house. He was blessing their house.

52:41 And he says, But I'm sure my dad would be interested in talking to you. So he's off the council, but people are still calling him to come in and bless their. Home well, his children, his children OK yes, all right so. I feel like before we go on to that conversation that you will end up having with Joe, you Morrow and I and your wives. No, my wives weren't there when I went. OK, I thought you said your your first wife. Was we were having a conversation about going to see. Him OK, so so did did did anybody's wives accompany you guys over OK so it was just just the fellas it's just just. Moroni and I OK. So before you go have that talk, I think now's probably a good time because I, I can imagine that you're, you're going to be on a, a truth finding mission, right? We're going to get down to the bottom of what what this is. I imagine at this point you want to let's go ahead and let's go over what the charges were for Joe Thompson, right? What he was charged with.

53:39 And let's get into the specifics about that and whatnot. But let's do that in a second. So I got to take a short break. OK. So before we go to to the charges, you said that there was one other piece of information about a prayer you offered concerning this. OK, that was important. Now I have to backtrack back to August of 93, which is before I made the trip to Mexico, right? Because I didn't go to the trip to Mexico. If I recall, it was either late November, early December. OK, all I do know, and this is probably something we could Fact Check, is they were celebrating Owen Allred's birthday.

54:20 Yeah, as they they even made a cake. And it was his birthday month. Yes, OK, I can Fact Check that real fast. But anyway, the same day that Brother and Owen made the announcement in August of 93, where they informed everybody that they had dropped Joe Thompson from the council on the charges of what they called unrighteous dominion and unchristian like conduct. After the meeting, I was invited by a man by the name of Louis Herring. He invited myself and my wife to go have dinner with them and they lived in Harriman.

55:03 And when we arrived there, he apparently invited another young, another young couple, a man by the name of Johan Boss and his wife. So we had dinner and we talked. And he wanted us to each share our conversion stories, how we came into the into the group. Both of us came from the mainstream LDS Church. I had fundamentalist backgrounds. Johann didn't. And we both shared our conversion stories. Well afterwards, Louis Herring made the statement. I want to talk about the elephant in the room and I said, what do you mean? He says, well, Owen Owens announcement today regarding Joe Thompson, what do you guys feel about that? And I told him, well, I don't really know Joe, so I don't really.

56:01 Have an opinion? Have an opinion one way or the other? And he says, well, I can tell you that there's a split coming over this, and you better know what side you're going to be on. And I says, what do you mean? And he says, you either are going to support Brother Owen and what he did or are you going to stand against him? I said. So are you saying whether I'm willing to proclaim that Joe Thompson is guilty of these things or not, he goes, well, yeah. I says, well, if that's the case and and I have to make a decision on that, do you have any evidence that I can look at?

56:45 Says there's enough evidence to put the man behind bars for 15 years. And I said, are you prepared to show me that evidence? And he says, no. He says, I'm Privy to it. He says, but no. And that says then I don't really appreciate the pressure you're putting on me. Right, because he's kind of asking for blind obedience, right? And he said, and he says to me, what do you mean? I said, you're asking me to render judgement on something I have no knowledge of, right? I says this has nothing to do with me sustaining brother Owen and his calling or anything like that. Is, you know, I was, I'm perfectly, I was perfectly fine, fine to let this controversy be between Owen Joe and and the Lord.

57:37 But if you're telling me that I have to be on board with the decision over his guilt or innocence, I says I can't do that in a righteous manner without examining the proof that there is or lack thereof. Yeah. And he again said, well, you're going to have to, you're going to have to, you know, make a choice. And I says you're telling me I have to make a choice, but I don't have access to the. The evidence. To the evidence. And he says, well, you'll probably have to pray about it. That's where you get your evidence. Well, I had already read from Joseph Smith saying that no man can be condemned based on spiritual evidence alone, right? You know, I didn't say that to him. And that's what went through my mind. Right.

58:33 And I said, well that may be, but I hesitate to to raise my voice and condemnation of any man without any evidence. Right. And when I said what I said, the Johann boss said kind of stated the same thing, and so Louis Herring kind of backed off. So you think that Herring was inviting you over to see where you guys sat? I don't know. OK, it could be, maybe not. Just kind of way of gauging. Right, right. Who knows, That's all I can answer to that, right. I'm not going to sit here and try to speculate as to guys motivation. But anyway, I was kind of perturbed by that, that Oh yeah, by what he said.

59:28 So when I got home, before I got home, I told my wife, I said I'm really bothered by what was said tonight, right? And it's gotten me questioning what happened. What'd your wife say? To that she says, yeah, it kind of bothered me, too. I said, would you be willing to go into the true order of prayer with me and asking about this? She goes, yeah, So we got home and then put the kids to sleep. We made a little makeshift altar. We got in, we got into our robes and offered up the true order of prayer. And the question was, is Brother Joseph Thompson guilty of the charges that have been brought against him? Now, granted, at the time I didn't know what they were yet. First, Isley, I was just asking generally, is he guilty of the charges brought against him?

1:00:23 After the prayer, I remember thinking that he was innocent. I had a very strong impression of that, but I, I didn't get any and I'll be honest, I didn't, you know, get any. Right. Outright you. Didn't get the particulars right. It was just a a blanket, no? Well, I would say it was more of a feeling, right? I didn't hear enough. Right, right, right. Your your answer is a blanket no though, right? That's the feeling you got. But after the prayer, we sat and meditated for a while. And I saw that that my wife had a, an expression that showed that she received something. And I asked her, did you get some? She goes, yes.

1:01:04 What did you get? And she didn't say I got this or I got that. She just started saying, my servant Joseph Thompson is innocent before my eyes, my judgments fall on his accusers. No. If you knew my wife, she didn't talk that way, Right? She wasn't what I would call very gifted and that matter of speech, right? Not to mention, when she said it, it burned in my bosom and I remember it making a big impression on me. OK, now that same week, this was a Sunday, Sunday night, the same week on a Wednesday night, they had general priesthood, general priesthood meetings.

1:01:58 I if I don't remember precisely whether they started at 6:00 or 7:00 PM, but they were held at the RCA building there in Bluffton. I used to actually take time off work because I worked the night shift to go to those meetings and there were generally like 2 hour meetings. I went to one of those meetings and that meeting was all about the evils of Joe Thompson. I can't remember who it was that was giving the class, but it seemed to me that it was Harry Garnell. But I'm not positive, so, you know, don't hold me to that. And I remember brethren saying, yeah, I always knew there was something off of that guy.

1:02:48 And, you know, that you were hearing those type of murmurings and I was hearing them all around me. And I remember thinking, this is so insensitive because I'm sure there's a lot of children of Joe Thompson in this meeting, a lot of his sons, right? It just seems like a like what the, the, the conduct of the meeting was very insensitive and improper. I remember thinking that after the meeting, I saw a group of a group, a small group of Joe Thompson's sons, I would say about six of them that were kind of gathered in a little circle, almost looked like a huddle.

1:03:33 And they're talking to each other. And every now and then, I'd see one of them look around as so they're being, you know, seeing if anybody's around them, hearing what they're saying. And I felt inspired to go tell him of the experience that I had with my wife. After that prayer, I said I'm not going to do that because I still have my doubts as to whether that was a legitimate thing. Right, right. You were doubting your own feelings, right? I was just healthy. Right, I was doubting my own feelings and and even doubting what my wife said. Right. And I got the strong impression. Go share that with him. I said no second time, 1/3 time, go share it with them. And I was like, if these accusations happen to be true, I'm going to really tick them off. Yeah.

1:04:25 But I went and did it anyway. And in that group, or the two I told you about that I would already befriended, there was Paul Thompson and Leland Thompson. And gathered in that little group was Kent Thompson, Hiram Thompson, Alan Thompson. And I believe, I can't remember who the other one was. OK, I says, brethren and I, I don't know if what I'm going to say is upsetting or not to you guys, but I feel very impressed to share something that happened with me and my wife Sunday night. And they said, oh, what was that?

1:05:08 We asked if your dad was guilty or innocent to the charges brought against him. And the answer that my wife uttered was my servant, Joseph Thompson is innocent before my eyes, my judgements fallen as accusers. I remember Paul Thompson hugged me and said thank you. We needed to hear that. Well, it became obvious to me that his sons that were there didn't believe what was happening. Right. And that's a good indicator because generally speaking, men who have this propensity don't just victimize one or two here and there. They have pattern.

1:05:56 Right. And it seems like these, at least these sons of his, didn't believe that was true. Got you. Gotcha. So this has to proceed. You know everything I've been saying about these later meetings. Right. It's already kind of shaping my thinking. Right. So by the time you get to Mexico, you have these these experiences. Yes. And then what? What the gentleman the the Aztec gentleman tells you, he is just a further witness of what you've already been getting. And then Owen's own I'm dedicating of the temple. Right. You know, just it, it just now you, you know, some could argue that it's all confirmation bias, right?

1:06:37 And I could understand why, but for me it was very real. Yeah, yeah. OK. So let's talk about the actual charges and then I want to go into that meeting that you and Moroni have with with Joe Thompson. So what exactly are the charges? Now the charges the, the best I can say speak to them. I know of at least three allegations that were made by three of his children 2, two of his daughters, one of his son. OK. Now, I've I've heard that there's more than that, but those are the only ones that I can concretely say were part of it.

1:07:21 And I'm not going to name names. I just want to say that there's two daughters and a son, OK? Because I think that these kind of things bring up complications that affect people, that collateral damage that I don't want to sure, you know, cause problems for. But the allegations were made is that when they were very young that their father abused them. Now, every sexually, right, sexually, every one of these people that I'm talking to were adults and older than me. Right. And they were older than me, you know, I would say by close to 10 years. OK, how many kids did you have? I was told he had 60.

1:08:04 OK. Now one thing I want to point out is all three of these came from the same mother, OK? Whether that makes any difference or not, I don't know. Does this mother stay with Job? No. OK. Does she leave during the time of the allegations or before? I don't know, but I I tend to think that it was around the allegations. OK. All right. I'm not positive though. I don't know. So these are adult children by now. OK, so they level these charges of of sexual abuse of a child Anjo and the council seems to take their word for it right away. I don't know if it's right away.

1:08:53 OK. I will say that whether and by the Council, I I don't think that you have unanimity in that. OK as. A matter of fact, I know you don't, but the consensus has reached that for some reason or other they got a drop job. OK. I want to talk about how how the charges come to be right. Why are they made during? These three kids adulthood and not their childhood because what was purported is that it was memories that they recovered. Explain recovered.

1:09:40 Have you heard of the the concept of repressed memories? Yes. Well, that's what it has to do with repressed memories that were later recovered. What was the mechanism for recovery? Was it, were they through dreams? Were they through, you know, look, I just had had a young lady on who talked about memories that were repressed, that came to the forefront, right? And she said they were triggered by, of all things, going to a graduation. Why? I don't know, but that's what happened. Is it that sort of a deal or is it something else? Are these things that they're recovering or is it are there other methods by which these memories are being extracted?

1:10:22 I will answer that by telling you what? I will answer that by telling you what one of the council members said to me. OK. And that happened to be Marvin Allred, Owen's brother. Owen's brother? Yes. I'll get into the circumstances that led to me meeting with him later. OK. But when I presented and I actually have to, I have to give you the backdrop. I'm sorry. Yeah, no, do it, Do it. You're fine. And this few years down the line, OK, this you know, these meetings that I'm telling telling you about happened 9394.

1:11:06 Now we jump Fast forward to 1997 and I asked the elders quorum president for permission to court his daughter. He told me that he'll pray about it. A week later, being the elders quorum president and I'm in an elders quorum meeting. He says he wants to talk to me during his announcements, which he usually gave before the meeting started. He said, I want to talk with Sean Anderson after meeting in the library. Yeah, you know, before we start, you know, after meeting.

1:11:48 Well, when I went to that and I had to give you more context, I, I had blown out my my right knee and I and saw this on crutches during the time. So at the time, I I couldn't drive myself to work because I had this stiff brace that I couldn't bend my leg with. And so I couldn't drive. So Alan Grover is is the man who gave me a ride to that that elders meeting and they were held at 7:00 AM on Sunday mornings. OK so I attended the meeting and after the meeting I went into the library and they came they followed in after me. I was just in the library waiting for him and the elders corn president is 2 counselors came in and they had a lot of little kindergarten type seats and I was asked to take this a seat in one of them.

1:12:43 So you picture that. Yeah. And then he pulled up another seat, put his foot on it, you know, bending his knee, sure, putting his elbow on his knee and in his first under his skin and and looked at me and says, well, I'm going to just cut to the chase shot. Brother Owen has asked us to invite you not to attend any more priesthood meetings or functions. Wow. This is 1997. OK, so up to that point, had you been vocal about defending Joe? Not much, no. Just within the circles that I knew felt safe. Yeah.

1:13:24 Gotcha. OK. And so I said why you'll have to take that up with brother Rowan. And I says, I'm sure you have some idea. I mean, the week before I had just asked him for the permission to court his daughter. Right. And it's, I don't think it's a coincidence that I come in and I'm told that I'm out, right? And he says, well, we feel that your loyalties lie with Joseph Thompson. I says, and how do you ascertain that? Well, don't you?

1:14:04 I says, I'll be honest with you. I don't believe he's guilty, if that's what you're asking. But have you ever heard me say anything disruptive in class or can you point to anybody here? I tried to convert to that idea, right? He says, well, no. Then on what basis are you removing me other than Brother Owen just saying to get rid of me? And I says, besides that, don't you think what you said was an oxymoron? I invite you not to. And and he said, what do you mean? I says invite me not to attend. That's a classic definition of an oxymoron. Right. All they could say was you have to take that up with Brother Owen.

1:14:48 But the oldest current president says to me, look, if I think something and Brother Owen thinks otherwise, I think he's the man with the keys. He must know better. And I said, well, I'm not like you. Yeah, especially when I see things that don't seem to be going in the same direction, making sense, making sense to me. I reserve the right to have my own judgement, right? That's what I said. I don't think they they thought that I would actually go and talk to Owen, right? I went home.

1:15:28 I went home after after that encounter. I didn't go to the sacrament meeting following because I was told not to and and so I called brother Marvin Allred, who lived down and in a rocky Ridge just South of Santa Quin, Utah. I called him because I had established a good rapport with him when I on my trip in Mexico with him right in a few years before. And I asked him if I could have, you know, come talk to him. He says, sure, What what about? I says, I'd rather tell you when I get there, but it's important.

1:16:11 I really think I really need to talk with you. Said OK. And he says, and I can't remember. He said 3:00. Does 3:00 work for you? Sure. And it was 3 or 4:00, but it was kind of mid to late afternoon, right? So I drove down and it was in the fall, I remember it being kind of getting kind of nippy outside, right? So I drove down and but before that I I wrote down what happened between the elders, corn presidency and myself. Right. And when I got there, I knocked on the door and one of his wives came to the door and as how can I help you and says I have a meeting with Brother Marvin. She goes, oh, let me go see.

1:17:05 And then she comes back. She says he's expecting you in his in his office. So I walked in and he was there in the office waiting for me. And Brother Marvin. I have to say that I really liked this about him. He was a very affectionate, loving man. Right. And as I walked in, he stood up and he shook my hand with both hands. And he says, how can I help you, dear? And I said, I'm going to take a seat. And he goes, yeah. So I sat down. He sat down at his desk, and I handed. I says, if you would read this, then we can proceed to talk.

1:17:47 So I handed them the little synopsis that I wrote it, what took place. He read it. And he started shaking his head. And then he put his hand over his, over his brow and started saying, shaking his head and saying, we're losing our strength. We're losing our strength. I said, what do you mean? Brother Marvin said. Brother Joe, Brother Joe's sons are some of the strongest boys we have in this group. And I don't mean strong as in physical, but stronger in the faith. And he has one of the best retention rates of his children in this in the fullness of the gospel, he says. And many of his children have entered plural marriage. And because of what happened with the controversy over their father, we're losing a few of them. And now we're kicking you out.

1:18:44 And he says, and I've always thought that you were strong, and I don't understand it. And then he said I worked intimately close with Joe Thompson for 40 years and never once have I known him to be an immoral man. So. So even even Owen Allred's brother Marvin is expressing some hesitancy. Yes. And so when he said that, I said, are you telling me you don't believe Brother Joe's guilty of these charges? He says absolutely not. That was honestly, that was a surprise to me. Yeah, because it's it's it's Owen Allred's.

1:19:25 Brother right his. Brother and he was there with the council when they made their announcement and he stood behind Brother Owen supporting him and the decision they made on Brother Joe. And Marvin was probably there when when Ruin was running the show, so to speak, right? I mean. Well, Marvin was there from the day Joseph Messers the month. OK, now at that point I said, so you don't believe the charges brought against him in reference to child molestation? He goes absolutely not. What are your reasons why? Why don't you believe him? And then he said, well, his I believe those girls were disturbed. What do you mean by that?

1:20:17 Their testimony? He says their testimonies were brought out through hypnosis. Oh, OK. All right. So, so the whole, you know, the hypnotherapy regressive, OK. So he said that. He says their testimonies were brought out through hypnosis. And he says, I don't know about you, Sean, but I don't think that that is a reliable way of determining witnesses. No, there's so much that can go on with that, right? And look, I've never done it myself, but I know some people who have who later have said that they had memories of things that weren't, weren't legit, right?

1:21:02 And look, I want to say this, repressed memory, I do think is a thing, right? I think I've seen personally, I've seen people who endure A trauma who as a coping mechanism, shove that down South. Repressed memories I got no problems with. However, when you start getting into regressive hypnotherapy, you start getting into some really dicey things, right? And look, Joe Thompson's not the only guy that this happened to. Hugh Nibley's daughter accused him of molesting her while under hypno, regressive therapy. And so it is. It is a science. It's, I can't even call it science. It's a pseudoscience that I don't think has, I don't quote me on this, I'd have to Fact Check it, but I can't think of 1 case where repressed, you know, where, where hypnotic regression was used to any efficacy in a court of law because it is so suspect in how it happened.

1:22:05 So each one of these girls, each each one of the three level the charge because these memories were retrieved from hypnotherapy. That's that's what he said. Wow. And Sean, just for clarification, that was 1997. And then you don't end up you, you don't end up leaving the Allred group till 1999, so about two years later. OK, now, now, I'm not going to add to or take from that. That was the conversation I had with him. Right. To the best of my memory right now, Now we have to. That kind of gives you the nature of the allegations made against him. Right.

1:22:46 So now let's Fast forward, go back, go back in time, back to 90, 93, early 94. I can't. Remember when you're about to go talk to to Joe. Right now, when did you say Owen's birthday was? It was January 15th. OK so they were pre celebrating his birthday. Right. Which would make sense if it was late November, early December. Yeah, you're going to do that. It's close. Right. And they're celebrating his 80th birthday. And if I'm don't, if I recall, he's 1/19/14. Yes, that is correct. So yeah, that that makes sense. OK. But anyway, I made the determination to go talk to Joe Thompson. You and Marona. Yes, because I talked to Marona about what happened in Mexico, right? And, and so we decided, and Morona was always one that was quick to say, the spirit tells me we should do it right, you know?

1:23:44 And I learned to trust Morona on that because he usually is pretty good that way. Right. And so we went. Before we went, you know, like I said before, I talked to Paul Thompson and he said his father is out doing a house blessing, and so I'll talk to him afterwards. Then I get a call from Paul. It's already 10:00. And he got a call. He says he wants to meet with you. OK, It's 10:00 PM, Mind you, right? I thought, I thought he was going to set an appointment for later, right? So I said, so when do you want us to come over? He was. Well, now would be a good time. OK, he's come over to my place and I'll show you how to get to his.

1:24:27 See, at the time, I didn't even know where Joe lived. I knew he lived. He was, you know, you had a house somewhere in Harriman. He had one in, in Lehigh and he also had one in Harriman. And so Moroni and I get out, you know, get out and leave and it's late and our wives stay behind. They stayed. And Needless to say, I was going to say Moroni and, and his wife Martha spent the night at our place, right. But anyway, we, we drove, we drove off and went to Harriman, over to Paul's place and Paul says, OK, let me call him. He says he's ready for us. So we then go up to apparently he didn't live too far.

1:25:08 I was just up the road a little bit. Knock on the door and sister Shirley Thompson opens the door and he's. Oh, hi guys, how are you? She's always a very, I would say very jovial person. OK, She was heavy, sad, but she had a very jolly expression. She was, she was quite a sweetheart. That was Shirley Thompson, he says. Oh, Joe's looking forward to talking. So I felt, oh, I guess it's not an imposition. Right. So she takes us back to his bedroom and if I recall it, my memory might be failing me here, but it almost seemed like he had a hospital bed in his room.

1:25:50 And we showed up and she had set 2 folding chairs on the wall just opposite from the foot of his bed. And that's where Marona and I were invited to sit. I remember Brother Joe, you know, he'd been having a lot of health issues, but he sat up and he was in his undies and he skidded up and sat at the edge of the bed and started talking to us. And if I, if I recall, we, he says, what do you guys need to know? I says, well, first of all, are you guilty of the allegations that were made against you? And he said categorically not guilty. There's no hesitation there.

1:26:39 I, I, I rather really like that answer, categorically not guilty. And he says, but somehow I think that we, we should be talking about something else. And then he began to elaborate on the fullness of the priesthood, and he talked about his experience of how Joseph Muster did that for them. Interesting. And the circumstances surrounding it and talking to us about how vitally important this ordinance was to the Restoration and to the world. Right. I can tell you this being there. That is, he lit up.

1:27:24 We didn't leave his house till 3:00 AM. Wow. Then I can tell you that aside from the Lord Himself and you know, through visions or dreams or anything, I had never been so edified by a man in my life. Did Marone? I feel the same way. Yes. And we both there made the determination that we would defend Joe Thompson's character. Knowing full well what that meant, right? That that that was going to put you at odds. Now, yes, I wasn't active proactive about it, but if asked the questions, I would say it right?

1:28:05 That's that was my I think Marone, I was a little bolder than I was in that right because Marone, I went and talked to his dad and to his father-in-law. That would be PED Jessup and Mel Sullivan, and both of us cautioned us about taking a stand against the Lord's anointed. Wow. But both of those men on their own, Brother Ted decided he wanted to go talk to Joe too, because Joe had been very helpful in his journey, right?

1:28:45 And Brother Mel had remembered a note that he took called the oath of brotherhood that they did well, I don't know if it was administered by brother ruling or brother own according to his account. I that detail slips me. But they were put under that oath that I will not believe any derogatory report of any of you, brother, unless I talk with you and receive that perfect witness or something. That effect, right. For I believe you to be men of God. And this you know. You know that? Yeah. Yeah. And he said that he hadn't honored that, so he wanted to go talk to Brother Joe.

1:29:26 Yes, he should, right? He should covenant and he's going to, he's going to exercise it. Well, he did that and came out of it Brother Joe's innocent. Wow. Brother Ted and talking to Joe for a different reason came out of it with Joe's. Joe's innocent. Now a lot of people assumed that I and Moroni were following Ted and Mel. Which isn't the case. They were kind of coming up with their own conclusions after you guys. After us we were. Took the initiative. You know, Brother Joe Thompson's daughter told me that I was in fact the first person outside the Thompson family that made a stand for him. I always thought it was another man by the name of Ken Jepsen, but she said no, You, you preceded him a little by a little bit.

1:30:16 I won't mention names of who these daughters and sons are because, right, you know, the things get common. We want to protect their their their privacy. Right. But anyway, if they listen to this podcast, I'm sure they'll know who they are. But anyway, so going back in time, as I said, I at this priesthood meeting, I made the this that I shared the experience with some of the Thompson sons of what happened. And that much happened for a little while.

1:30:57 But getting close to April, I get a call from his daughter, brother Thompson's, Joe Thompson's daughter. And she's influential by the way, that's all I can I'm going to say. And she said you've been invited to attend the solemn assembly down in Mesa. My my dad explicitly wanted you to go there. Joe Thompson was following this solemn assembly. Yes, In Arizona. OK. Now, are you comfortable saying whereabouts in Arizona? Mesa. OK, you may have said that. I missed it. Probably it was, it was actually posted by by Ted Jessup, because they had, you know, about six months before or something like that. They had moved down there or a little bit before that.

1:31:39 OK, now, now help me understand this, right. And I only asked this for for context, did the AUB have have branches down there in Arizona where they were at? Oh, OK. All right. They had one. They had one in Surprise, AZ OK, All right. Mainly Mexican people that came up from the colony. Got you 10, four, OK. But brother Ted Jessup moved to to Mesa, Arizona for a job. Opportunity was one thing, and he also felt impressed to be there. OK. So at this time when everybody's going down, with the exception of Joe obviously, is everybody still in reasonably good standing with the AU, with with with the all red group at that point? When you say everyone, the only person that moved down at the time was Ted and his family.

1:32:28 No, I I mean, it's time of this, this solemn assembly. That's that's what I mean, OK, Because everyone else that attended that was still living in Utah. OK. But but, but everyone that attended that was, were they still on good in good terms with it with the Allred group? Yeah, you could say that. OK. All right. This would have been in the spring of 94, OK, but some of assemblies Brother Joe called. We were there to meet in on a weekend. The first day that we arrived was just basically visiting, you know, having dinner, visiting, talking, but told we're going to wake up really early in the morning, like 3 or 4 in the morning, and we're going to expect you to be dressed in your robes.

1:33:17 Then we're going to have a some assembly where we're going to do a Sacramento feast where they serve plenty of bread and plenty of wine. And that Brother Joe conducted the meeting. It was kind of, you could say almost dual conducted with Ted Jessup and Brother Joe. It was Ted Jessup kind of starting it up and then Brother Joe taking it over. But I remember one of the first things he did is he rehearsed all the signs and tokens. I'm sorry, the signs and penalties and everything and an explanation. And then he began to talk about how he said that after the accusations and him being dropped by the council, that he was resigned to the idea of just living out the rest of his life and going home, allowing the group to continue doing what they're doing without him.

1:34:19 That he's pretty at peace with that. And he says he was at peace with that until you heard rumors of Brother Joe going, Brother Owen going back on the temple work. So that really bugged Joe. Yes, and then he told us why it bugged him, because he shared at the time, he shared with all of us there a revelation that the council had received in 1981. Now going back to 1992, Bill Baird shared that same revelation with me. OK, so it wasn't new to me, but it was new to some of the men there.

1:35:03 So it was a second witness to you in the first time for a minute for most of the other guys. And what, what was the contents of that revelation? I'm going to paraphrase it to the best of my memory. You for a copy of it. Rona Jessup I'm sure has a copy of it, so you could go back to it and Fact Check me on that. No, I, yeah. But basically, if I recall, this is where the content of it says this is the word of this is the word of Lord and to you brethren and priesthood council, it is in regards to it says in regards to the ordinances of my house, it is your, it is your due. Basically, it is your responsibility and duty to keep alive all the laws and ordinances of the gospel, including all the ordinances of my house, which I can no longer accept in my house, right.

1:36:06 Do not become proud in your callings lest you be destroyed in the Spirit. Approach me often dressed in the robes of the holy priesthood, and I will answer all of your rage righteous questions. Even so, I am Jesus Christ, who was crucified for the sins of the world. Amen. Now let me ask you, how do you interpret that? And. That that the Lord's been waiting a while for somebody. To I forgot to mention I have waited long for you to approach me in this manner. Right, I forgot to mention that.

1:36:47 He, he's been waiting, right? He's been wanting somebody to come ask about these things. And now that that they have went and asked about it, the Lord's telling him, come back in your robes and continue to ask these questions and I'll reveal these things to you. But what do you get from the very first part? It is your duty and responsibility to do what is you keep alive all the laws and ordinances of my gospel, including all the ordinances of my house. That that that is, that is a a, A and. And the Mexico Temple wasn't built at that time, right? No. So there neither was the one they have.

1:37:27 In left to me, that is a a mandate to get started, to get started, right? It's time to go forward with temple work. Now notice how he said is your duty and responsibility. And if I recall and but don't hold me to this, I think it said privilege too, but don't don't hold me to that. Sure, but anyway, he reiterated that to us, saying that the Lord and he says that's why he started pushing for the building of a temple. So Joe was the one that started to push for the building of a temple. It was him and Bill Baird.

1:38:08 OK. Bill Baird, the gentleman from England. No. OK, I think it's someone. Else, no, Bill Baird lived in Centerville, OK, in Centerville, UT, and if I recall, Bill Baird had been a worker in the in the temple in the church at one point. OK. And he converted to fundamentalism. Right. But anyway, so the next thing I can say here is he was talking. He basically reiterated at that that that solemn assembly. He reiterated what he had been talking with Morona and I privately elaborated on it.

1:38:53 Right. And he had his sons. He he had a couple of sons there, Rob Thompson, Ken Thompson, Dennis Thompson were there and, and he would have them get up and do explanations right. And they're really good at it. You could tell he did his homework in teaching his boys. Right. And I remember some of the other brethren that were there were so blown away. Wow, that was that was heavy stuff. That was I never knew. And what I found interesting of these guys have been in the all red group since either the 60s and 70s.

1:39:34 Right. And a lot of this was new to them, right? Moroni and I were just newbies, and we were already introduced into a lot of this stuff, right? Even before them, which I always found serendipitous. Yeah. And I've often wondered why, why, why was I so fresh in the group? And I'm drawn into this. Right. Stuff head of stuff, right? Anyway, that's for the Lord to answer. I don't know there's reasons behind it. But because I often felt like I had to pay my dues in this group before a lot, you know, right. Yeah. But anyway, to that was he made a statement that he said, brethren, I don't want to sound, he says. I don't want to sound overly presumptuous in making this statement, he says.

1:40:32 But I feel that the fate of the world lies with me at this. Moment so he's feeling he's feeling the pressure to magnify that calling so right by by making sure that that authority gets accessed along to somebody worthy. Right, He says. The Church is not perpetuating this amongst it, says it. To my knowledge, if any, it's only among general authorities will we perpetuate it. Let's see. He said we'll be perpetuated and up to now, he says I was more than content with just living out the rest of my life doing, knowing that I did the best I could and going back home and meeting my maker.

1:41:23 But when I heard word that Brother Owen was taking backward steps on temple work and these other things. After their relation. Yeah, he says. I feel like I have no choice but to see to it that this work continues. Whether Owen and the council will perpetuate this, I don't know, but he says I don't have confidence that they will. Right. Now he talked about the importance of that he didn't offer us or ordinances at that time, right.

1:42:07 Well, the meeting, you know, several people spoke. Brother Ted was very gregarious and his and his talks and very forthright that this is something we have to pursue. You know, brethren, to tell me back Brother Joe on this, you know, he was talking that way and that was I didn't know enough to really. Understand what's happening, Yeah. Yeah, but I remember thinking the spirit behind Brother Joe is very strong and feels really good to me. Right. And someone said, well, maybe we should.

1:42:49 Someone said, what about the high baptism? Is that something that people are? And Brother Joe took that as an opportunity to say, can you all get behind receiving the high baptism? And all of us said, yes, he goes, well, good, we can do that much. Wow. And then brother Ted got on the following day, brother Ted got on the phone with his, I don't know if it was a brother-in-law or a cousin of his wife. See the brother or a cousin or something like a family member of his wife on his Mexican. You know his wife is Mexican and it was. Right. Well, he happened to have a swimming pool in his backyard. OK. And he was able to arrange it, arrange it.

1:43:33 And so all of us got our high baptism in a swimming pool in Minnesota, Arizona in 1994. Wow. But anyway, after the meeting, I remember we had some leisure time and and then we, my brother came by to visit with me, my brother George, who lived in Mesa. And he came by for a quick visit. And then he left and my brother Gary came by too. And I remember some of the women that were there saying my brothers were very good looking. But anyway, that's that has nothing to do with anything. But and then, you know, we drove back, drove back to Utah. And I have to say that some of us were in station wagon and the others, Joe Thompson and the sons were in the little car. I don't know if it was a Datsun or Toyota or it was one of those and you know, we fair event back to Utah and we had a around the anniversary of that first one.

1:44:36 We had another 1/19/95 and but anyway that that kind of gets off topic now. OK, So ask me more questions, OK? So this this meeting happens What? What, where does you and Joe's relationship go from here? Right? Because because now you're, you're like, look, I can already tell where this is going, right? This is the beginnings of another group that's that's about to take shape. Did you recognize it as such at that time? It was a possibility in my mind, yes. OK. So as you go back now, you're going to attempt to go back to the AUB like everything's normal, I assume, right? I'd like to say something to that effect. Brother Joe advised us not to willfully break away from the AUB.

1:45:26 OK. All right. Which is similar to AUB used to advise us not to antagonize the church. Right. Or or to remain as faithful as we could. Right, right. So you're, you're going to go back to the AUB, try to try to go, go on like nothing's happened. Where, where does Joe take things next? And then what happens to the small group of people? OK, after the 94 meeting that we had in Mesa, the only one that I believe had enough sense to catch on to what Brother Joe was trying to do at that first meeting, there was Ted Jessup. Ted Jessup called Brother Joe and directly asked him if he could get the fullness of priesthood, AKA the second anointing.

1:46:19 Brother Joe prayed about it and then made the arrangement. Now it happened. It was a couple months later, I believe. I mean, I don't even know if it was a couple months. I'd have to talk to Marone and to, to get the chronology because we had this meeting in April and it was after that at this time, Marone, I was working with me. I was I was in my my second year of doing siding. OK. Which by the way, Rob Hander, the one I mentioned earlier, he's the one that brought me into the trade. OK, gotcha. And I was still working with him. He was it was his company and I was one of the crew, crew guys, right.

1:47:04 Well, he gave me my own crew and and I hired Marone. I just have to work with me. And he came in as a cutter. And I remember we were on a job and it was kind of a gloomy day, rainy, gloomy day. And Morona is a grandfather in And he says, why don't you know, why don't we go there for lunch? No, it wasn't that we took lunch and we got to talking about things. And he said, I feel impressed that we have to go pray. Why don't I says, where are we going to do that? And he says, well, we can go in the basement of my grand, my grandfather in Law's house.

1:47:57 So he went there and I think he was actually living there at the time, him and his wife. So he went there and we went down in the basement and we offered up some prayers in the true order. Right now, of course, we weren't dressed in our robe, sure, but we both wore the garment. We understood that was enough to do right. And, and I remember I was overcome with a very strong premonition. And I'd say to my own I, I feel by the Spirit that your dad has received something very special. I don't know what it is, but I feel that he's received something very special. Really.

1:48:39 She says. Yes, I feel it very strong. Well, after work, when we went back home, well, he wasn't living there anymore. He was living on in my place. I had a house in Kearns, OK, and I was living with his brother Carlos at the time, and Marona and his brother Tony moved in. It was a kind of a big enough house that it could have all of us there. When we got home, guess who was there visiting from Mesa? Brother Ted and his wife and they were dressed in white clothing. Wow. So when we got there, Marone and I looked at each other and we both knew what happened. Yeah. Brother Ted didn't have to tell us a word. We got a testimony of it, Right.

1:49:24 And so to me, it was it we it was better that we found out that way. Yeah, absolutely. So at this point, how much longer does Ted live? I'm not Ted. Excuse me Joe live after this. After this, two more years. Two more years. He died in 90. Six what? What are those two years filled with at this point? Well, they're filled with brother Joe is not doing much himself because he's he's he's fairly ill. Yeah, and he's bed bound an awful lot. I do see him on occasion at, you know, more gatherings, like a blessing of a baby or somebody, somebody's birthday party or something like that. I'll see him at a gathering like that. But for the most part, I don't see him in a religious setting, right.

1:50:20 He's generally at home and I go visit from time to time. I do remember him having concerns with the way Brother Ted wants to proceed with things because Brother Ted was a missionary in the LDS church and he thought he could do things the way you did it in the LDS church. And Brother Joe was trying to let him know. This is a different animal, right? You know, you know this. This takes a different approach. But anyway, aside from that and him encouraging us to gather in the true order of prayer and stuff like that, not much is happening. OK. But I do know is that in the in that before he died, Brother Ted ordains. No, Sullivan.

1:51:05 OK. All right. And then Brother Ted and no Sullivan, you know Brother Ted, you know the he acquires some property in Northern Arizona near a town called Contra Arizona, and he wants to label it as a gathering spot where we can proceed to build a temple. OK. So that they can continue working. So it seems like Ted really caught Joe's vision there a little bit. OK, now I I I do both Brother Mel and Brother Ted around that before before Brother Joe died. I think they were both kicked out of the owner group. By that time I hadn't because I wasn't as vocal as they were. Right.

1:51:55 The brother, Brother Mel was instrumental and had a hand in a letter that was delivered to everyone in the AUD questioning the way they dealt with Joe Thompson. Because it didn't follow the protocol that told to, you know, should follow if someone is, you know, serious charges are brought against people. And it was a letter mainly dealing with that. And I know of some of the guy, some of the people who were in that letter or who contributed to that letter, right. I didn't write anything on that letter, but I made, I made a statement that was quoted in that letter. So you could say I made a contribution too. Sure, like a sentence or two, sure. But anyway, but brother Mel also wrote a private letter to brother Owen, you know, questioning some of these things and stating him.

1:53:00 I, I, I support you and your calling and all this other stuff, but I, I, I'd like some answers on this. And and for his troubles, he got kicked out of the group. Right. And, and I remember the the the letter was read out loud in one of the priesthood meetings and they were asking, is anybody here, you know, have anything to do with this letter and this and that and the other. And I was hearing a lot of the stirrings and like a fool, I was going to raise my hand and say I had anything to do with it. I really didn't. But I was aware of who did you. Got 2 sentences in there, Sean. Yeah. But anyway, like a fool I was going to rat anybody out or anything. Right.

1:53:42 And quite frankly, they didn't even address the content of the letter, they just started referring to it as accusing of the brethren and all this other stuff, and it was a total straw man. Right. But anyway, so that So what I'm showing here is kind of in a odd sort of way, I'm showing you kind of a of how keys were passed on. Yes, yes, I'm picking that up. From Joseph Musser to Joe Thompson to Ted Joseph, Yes, and O'Sullivan. But anyway, the legitimacy of of the those ordinations all ties into Joe Joseph.

1:54:27 Musser, right? Yep, it can all be traced back to Musser. Right now there are people that you know that would challenge that notion. You know, you people says that those were never passed on and they haven't seen enough evidence of it and all this and the other, and I can understand that. Sure. But there was things said to me in regards to it that to me settled the issue that he did. And another argument that's made is maybe he wasn't in his right mind when he did it and all that. But to me that that's a little immaterial it it either happened or it didn't. Right, right. Well, if you, if you, I'm going to hold off on that one for a minute. That's just my own.

1:55:10 Personal yeah, no, no, I I get it. And and it's valid, right? I do. I think it's valid. So so we we see the secession of of those keys start to happen, right? Muster ruin Allred, Joe Thompson, Ted Jessup and Mel Sullivan to this point. So and I guess that's kind of the big thing that that we're we're at this point. So I want to pause here for a second. I want to take a break. And then when we come back, I want to talk about where you were when you found out that that Joe Thompson had passed on. And then I want to follow those keys up to the present day, right without you know it.

1:56:00 I don't mind naming names of people who'd had it, who's maybe passed on. Probably want to stay away from anyone who holds them currently. We can refer in generalities, but for for for the sake of somebody else's privacy, I don't want to help them. Does that make sense? Absolutely. All right, cool. Let's do that. So at what point? Like at some point we know Joe passes. Where were you when he passed? When he passed away, if I recall, it was sometime in the spring or maybe early summer of 1996. I can't remember the exact date that he passed, but I was standing on a plank in drizzly rain, installing softened fascia in the in the backyard of a house in Riverton. And his son, I believe it was his son. Yeah, Kurt Thompson was working with me when I got a call from his daughter Marianne, who is Marianne Watson, telling me that her father passed away.

1:57:08 That was on a cell phone, the kind they used to have back in the 90's. The brick. Yeah, 90. Well, it wasn't quite the brick. It was a little bit more modern looking than that, but in 1996. Still had to pull up the antenna. Well, I had an antenna. On. OK, All right. Gotcha. Gotcha. One of those fat antennas. Yeah. And so like, what at that time, are you still part of the AUB? Are you still attending with the AUB? What was what was the general consensus like around, you know, the scuttlebutt, if you will, around the AUB about his passing? Like is anyone bringing it up or talking about it or?

1:57:50 I have to admit that during that time I was I wasn't what you was calling completely active. Right, I get you. I was still I was still quasi active. It it gets a little hard right when you start going down a different path, it gets a little hard to want to be there consistently. I I get that. My main thing was they really started pushing support for brother Owen on a on a one man basis, right. That I didn't agree with. Right. And so it was beyond Joe, beyond Joe Thompson with that issue. Yeah. But anyway, I have to do I have to say that a brother Joe's funeral, something happened that. No, it wasn't his funeral.

1:58:35 Sorry. No, you're good. Let me backtrack. There was a man by the name of Ken Jepsen, and Ken Jepsen was a good friend of Sean Murphy or Steve Murphy. OK. And Steve Murphy was adamant about Joe being a wicked man. And that was what Ken Jepsen was formulating in his mind until he decided to go talk to Joe himself. Then he totally changed his tune about Joe. I attended an elders meeting and then this. It was kind of a special meeting because we had his guests, Lamoine Jensen. Lamoine Jensen was there as well as David Watson who were members of the council and they were attending our meeting. Well, at that meeting, the Elders Corn president kind of opened the meeting for people to get up and bear their testimonies.

1:59:32 And there was a couple of men that got up to bear their testimonies and they were Paul Maycock on Die Allred in Rob Hender. And they all got up and basically gave the same kind of testimony that I testify that Brother Owen is the man who holds the keys. That was the gist of all three others, but they all gave a little story into it. Right. And then Ken Jepsen got up to talk. And this I will never forget because it was epic. But brother Ken Jepsen gets up now to describe brother Ken Jepsen. He had a good singing voice. Good singing voice and he sounded a lot like John Denver and he actually sang a lot of John Denver songs.

2:00:18 So that kind of gives you a little bit of the sound of his voice as a reference. But anyway, he gets up to talk and he says, and he starts by saying, brother Paul, I, I, I liked what you said about this, this and that. Brother Onda, I liked about what you said, this, this and that. Brother Rob Hender, I, I like what you said about this, this and that says but brother, and let's get serious. You bury your testimony. You make it sound like it's hard for you to get up and bury your testimony about Brother Owen in this, in this setting says would you have the courage to get up? You act as though it takes courage to to do so here in this group of people. Would you have the courage to get up in an LDS board meeting and say the things you've said today? Oh.

2:01:10 And he says, well, I too am going to bear my testimony. Oh boy. And he says, brethren, I bear my testimony that the brother that the priesthood that Brother Owen has. Then he points to that Brother Lemoyne has and that Brother David Watson has. I bared my solemn testimony to you that Joseph Thompson has that same priesthood and no brother, and he's not a child molester. Oh. Boy, and I can also bear testimony to you that the way he's been dealt with his unrighteous. Wow. And at that point, the Elders Corn president said, Brother Jepsen, would you sit down?

2:01:52 And he says, I've said my peace. And he sat down. Elders calling president then says I would like to now call on Brother Lamoine Jensen to rebut what's been said here today. Now when Brother Ken Jepsen was talking, there was a young man that got up and left the meeting offended. No, it was a couple of them walked out in protest. And then Brother Lamoine gets up and he says, I wish I could comment on the beautiful testimonies we heard here today. Instead, I am forced to rebut. And what I can say is, Brother Jepsen, you don't know what you're talking about.

2:02:41 When these allegations were brought up to Brother Joe, he swore. He swore, brethren, and and he says, that's all I had. And he says, do you believe that's the way a man of God would respond sometimes? And then he said, and basically he finished his remarks and I remember thinking to myself, that's it. That's the response, right? Is that brother Joe swore, right? It's like, oh, that's good news. My daughters are accusing me of something very heinous.

2:03:24 Right. I think I'd be upset too. Yeah. Especially if it wasn't true. Absolutely. But anyway, this is where I think I made myself known to a lot of people because I could see that brother Ken Jepsen was feeling very alone at that moment. I walked up to him to shake his hand and I said thank you. We needed to hear that. And I made sure everybody would. Then eyesight and earshot, heard what I said and saw what I did. Right. That was kind of the end, probably close to the end at that point. Well, Ken Jepsen, this. No, it wasn't close to the end. It was still this. Joe Thompson died in 96 and and brother Ken died before he did.

2:04:10 OK. By an unfortunate accident when he went camping with his family, he went camping with his family in an old tree, fell on them and crushed him to death. Oh jeez. And as you would expect, people blame that on his stance. Right. Which I thought was very it's a very insensitive thing to say. Right. But anyway, this brings me to Ken Jepsen's funeral. I attended his funeral and a lot of people in the group did on both sides of this issue. Ken Jepsen's father was still in the LDS mainstream church and he gave a eulogy of his son. And he was talking about how we, I didn't always see eye to eye with my, my son.

2:05:03 He, But my son has always been a good man. And apparently I didn't know how good he was until lately as I've begun to meet the people that he interacted with. And he says, but the thing that touched me the most is when I was in the process of looking for a coffin from my son, the Thompson family said, no, we, we have a coffin that he that we'd like to donate that was handcrafted. And I was informed that it was made for Joe Thompson.

2:05:45 And he said the coffin he had intended for himself, he wanted me to have for my son. And he said, and it reminded me of when Christ was entombed. He was entombed in the tomb of Joseph Arimathea, right? And he says, so I want to say I am very thankful to God that we have a modern day Joseph Arimathea. His name is Joseph of Arimathea. Oh wow. That had to make few people start shifting comfortably at that funeral. And then he said, I can't believe, he says that people would calumnize the name of such a good man.

2:06:34 And there were many there who did then that congregation. And he said it as a big state of rebuke. Yep. And they couldn't say anything about it because it's at this guy's funeral. Right. So after Joe Patrick, what happens to this group of people that he has started to work with, right? And Jessup, You, Maro and I, Who's the other man? Mel Sullivan. Mel Sullivan, thank you. What, what happens to this this group of folks? What? What ends up? Well, Moroni ends up moving down there to join his dad, and at first he moves to Mesa because they're living in Mesa and I have to say that a bunch of us are a bunch of green horns and how to do anything.

2:07:28 Sure. How old are you at this time? 94 I was 27, OK, which is how old I was when I received the high baptism, high baptism. And so this all happens when I'm 27/28/20, 9:30 you know, around those. And, and I'll be honest, when I didn't really like Brother Ted Jessup's approach, I believe it was a little bit too bull in the China closet, right? And criticism of it was seen as as being kind of cowardly or you'll biting.

2:08:14 And I don't think that you could describe me or Brother Joe as cowards in any way, anything like that. It's just at times we've learned that you got to have some prudence and how you go about things. I was, admittedly, I was young, and so some of these older guys looked at me as well. You know, we like you and all, but you're young. Yeah. Right, right, right, right. You're you're still relegated to the kids table at Thanksgiving. Sort of, yeah. Not entirely. And it wouldn't be fair for me to entirely say that. I, I think they gave me plenty of respect considering my age, but nevertheless, some of that still played into it. But you know, for as young as I was, I had a lot of experience already with real world things.

2:09:09 And but anyway, like I mentioned before, there was almost a schism there with Brother Joe's sons and Ted and Mel and those guys over this, over the way they're going about things. And I played an important role in keeping that from happening. Right, keeping everybody together. Yeah, and I, I had a, a talk with Joe over this. And and Joe, you know, I have to say this, you know, he, he thought that my counsel on it was, was sound and he listened to it, which I remember thinking, you know, as I was surprised that he would be that humble to accept the counseling of a upstart like myself, right, You know.

2:09:59 Absolutely, yeah. Show shows a lot of willingness to listen. Right. Yeah, that's one thing I can tell you about Joe. He was a Dang good listener, right? So much so that at times you you thought that he that he wasn't because of the fact that he remained quiet for so long without responding. But he told me the reason he did that is because he was always careful how he answered any questions he didn't want to. He wanted to be very careful not to be misunderstood. Absolutely. So this group goes down to Concho eventually, right? Do you do you end up moving down there too?

2:10:39 Not till actually quite a bit later. Oh, in 99. This brings me to a subject that I'm very uncomfortable talking about. In 99, I lost my family and after that nothing was holding me in Utah. So I, I went down there and it does, it doesn't mean that I agreed with every little thing that they were about or anything like that, but it's the only place I could see myself going where I was still welcome. I understand. And, and quite frankly, up in Utah of those of us that were looking at being more prudent and action became kind of a big thing.

2:11:30 And I'm not saying that Brother Joe was, you know, his party to that because he, he had action up until he died, you know, to the best that he could. But among his children and all that they were, they were very hesitant to do anything. And I, I said to myself, well, I may not agree with brother Ted's direction altogether, but he's at least going doing something, doing something right. Yeah. And I felt maybe I can go down there. And if if I disagree with something, I can voice it, then maybe we can come to some sort of agreement on under how to proceed in a better way or whatever.

2:12:13 But, but also emotionally, I couldn't. I couldn't stay where I was anymore. I had to leave and Paul Thompson and Jonathan Thompson went with me. They they drove me down there and we pulled my little truck with, with one of those rent car dollies, car dollies you can rent. And what was remaining of my belongings and tools and stuff I took with me. And they told me I was welcome to be there and then I could stay with them. And, and so I kind of jumped between Brother Ted's, brother Mel's brother around his places. But I ended up staying at Brother Mel's more than off more often than not because Brother Mel lived in town in the town of Concho and, and Marona and, and Ted lived on the land is how they used to refer to it, off grid. And, you know, I had to go to work and stuff and it was easier for me to go from there.

2:13:16 Oh. I see. But anyway, and so this went on for, you know, from I would say around September of 99 all the way to December, mid-december of 2000. So how much time is that? What was this about a year and a half? Yep, which is around the time I, I married my third wife, my, my present wife, who's Clara, you know, and then I moved to Cedar City for, for a spell because she was still going to, what do you call it, Southern Utah University.

2:14:01 OK. Yep, Suu. Suu Yeah. And so she still, you know, hadn't finished what she was doing there. She ended up getting an associate's degree and, and so I lived there for a while and, and in 2003 we moved back to Concho and, and actively started working with the brethren there. And, and for a time that we were growing, We seem to have a good spirit about us. And then we had a controversy that came around 2000 and six, 2007 and and we endured a split over that and. Think that's the same split Marone I talked about on his first podcast.

2:14:46 With me, yes, and Marone, I ended up on the same side of that split and as as time went on, it seemed like our work was stagnating quite a bit and I didn't. Obviously I wasn't welcome on the other side unless I was going to see the eye to eye with the love dance. But on our side, we weren't really doing much. We started to, but then there's a lot of hesitancy and, and it just turned into we were just having a Sunday school meeting, that's about it, you know, and very occasionally we would have some ordinance work when generally when we have a convert that would come around and wanted this work done.

2:15:43 And ironically, a member of the other side had also been ordained by Ted and he ended up, you know, splitting ways from that side of the group and he moved to Missouri. Happened to be my brother-in-law. Robert. Lefevre, right? Lefevre, and I have to say this outright is him and I were on separate camps here, but I do believe that the spirit of his calling fell upon and he began to actively do more work over here in Missouri and in the process he invited me.

2:16:27 I was reluctant at 1st and everything, but I just, you know, I always like to give the benefit of the doubt and I do believe people can change for the better. And I'm not saying that he was a bad man or anything like that. We just didn't see eye to eye and I don't think that he viewed me with too much approval. But he came out to Missouri and he started a work among the brethren out here where I currently live. And, and, and then he moved up to Pattinsburg and he had bought an old church there in Pattinsburg, Missouri. And he got a really good deal on it because it was in the part of Pattinsburg that had been largely abandoned since the, the floods of 1993.

2:17:22 And he got a church for I think $10,000. Wow and. That was a good sized church and and he worked it into a functioning endowment house. He called it a temple. And that's an item, you know, I kind of disagreed with him on, but whatever he wants to call it is fine by me. But anyway, and he did some work there and, and he actually offered me the completion of my higher ordinances, which was, it's very, very ironic because him and I were completely on opposite views, right?

2:18:05 And I thought that the Lord had an interesting sense of humor, you know, because I, I have to admit, I, I told you the idea of rejecting the offer based on that. And I made, I made a condition with, with, I said to the Lord, one way I'll know it comes from you is that there will be no restrictions placed on me as a condition. And as soon as I finished saying that prayer, I got another phone call from him. And he says, I don't know why I'm saying this to you, but if you accept what I'm offering, it'll be without any restriction. There's your sign. Right.

2:18:46 And so that's how it comes down to to me. OK. And, and so, and correct me if I'm wrong, Robert then goes along to pass that authority on to the folks who would build the temple here in Missouri, right? So we can trace that priesthood back from the folks that are here now in Missouri that have built the temple, back to Robert Lefevre, back to Mel Sullivan or Ted Jessup, back to Joseph Thompson, back to Maser. Joseph Maser, who can then trace it back to Lorenzo Snow. And all the way back now, what's interesting to me, and this was one of the things that I did notice, right? And I'm, I am going to make a statement here and I'm not casting dispersion on anybody.

2:19:49 But there does seem to be a pattern that when when when the Lord is involved with the people, a temple is usually short to follow. Right. We can see that through the history, and I understand that it's a herculean effort, but nonetheless I do find it somewhat interesting that every place that that comes in line lands temple work seems to be. Following right behind it, right. And, and we don't have to call it the Thompson line. We can call it the muster line or whatever. But any place, any place this priesthood goes, temple work seems to follow shortly thereafter. And it's interesting that that seems to be some of the fruit there that that is bore from this. As we've talked about all this now, it's an interesting line in that it doesn't have a lot of hierarchy to it, right? Most of the groups that that that I know that have had this have been somewhat, I don't want to say disorganized, but maybe it's just the best word because what's the opposite of organization loosely.

2:21:09 Organized. Loosely organized. Thank you. Yes, you know, there's there's not a lot of that organization. I think that's probably by design. But nonetheless it does seem to be every place this priesthood lands, temple work is following shortly behind it. That seems to be something that that you can't get away from. I will say something here though, you know, because I'm sure, I'm sure critics will say this, and that is from the period of, you know, the Woolies and, and that work all the way to all the way to the 1980s. They didn't have temple work in fundamentalism. But the caveat is that they believe that the church is doing it properly, right? And under that they were saying, our Commission has been to keep plural marriage alive.

2:21:59 And whatever the church is able and willing to do, we fully support. And they were careful to say we're not a separate church. They were very careful to say that. And so that's, you know, kind of introduces a little bit of context to that condition. Well, I think we have to look at what the promises that were made right when Musser and those proto fundamentalists, a few of them go into the Salt Lake Temple and they have a meeting with Anton Lund. I, I, I think that was it. I'm sure Michael Mussel, correct me if I got that history wrong, but I believe it's Anton Lund. He basically tells him, look, just keep your records because we're going to be bringing you right back in as soon as this blows over.

2:22:40 And I think that's where this idea of we don't start another church comes from, right? In addition to the 1886 revelation, although that even seems to have a couple of different reports, right? One is, is, is you know, you'll only keep plural marriage alive. There's another one that seems to indicate that you'll do every, you'll keep alive everything that the church either can't or won't keep alive. And so there, there does seem to be to be that. And then, you know, it was a common prayer from what I understand is I talked to to some of some of the more experienced gentlemen. I have the opportunity to talk to you that the prayer was is that the temple doors would be open to them again.

2:23:21 And and so I think that all stems actually from that one meeting that they have where promises are made right from a member of the First Presidency in the Salt Lake Temple that hey, just keep your records. We're going to bring you right back in as soon as this blows over and it just never does. And so I I do wonder from time to time what things would look like had there been a realization sooner that hey, they're not that fault falls not coming. But nonetheless, right that that is a large reason. And then I don't find fault in that either, Sean, right. I think that that is a very rational thing to do and. Given what they had. What they had to work with and, and given the instructions that they had received from the church. It seems like a very rational way to go about it. And and, you know, they there does get to a point to where, you know, people start realizing, OK, we're going to have to do things ourselves now.

2:24:15 And, and that's that's, you know, obviously needed. So let me ask you this, as you look back at Joe's life and, and certainly not just Joe's life, but the authority that he was willing to pass on, what do you think the big take away is? The big take away that I got out of it is this not only is it important to know you come from a legitimate line, it's also important to know the direction that line is heading. See, I around the same time, I, I no longer subscribe to the idea that only one man on the earth at a time can have the fullness of these, these keys that are often mentioned.

2:25:01 And we've talked about it before in a, in a, in a previous podcast. But anyway, so I realized it's important to know that you have a legitimate line, but it's also important to know that the direction is following the Lord's direction. And one of the things that I like to state in in favor of that point of view is the story of of Alma in the Book of Mormon when he listens to the call to repentance that have been a die gives to the council of King Noah's priests. Now previous in the Book of Mormon, it says that King Noah's father was a righteous man who had consecrated priests. And when Noah took over, it said that he was not like his father and that he dismissed all his father father's consecrated priests and consecrated his own, among whom was Alma. But when Alma heard the call to repentance from Abinadi, who I suspect was one of the former consecrated priests of King Noah's father, that's a suspicion of mine. It's not.

2:26:24 I can't. Can't prove it? I can't prove it. Sure, does sound depressing, no? But anyway, after he repents and sees the truth and what Abed I was saying, he immediately goes out and starts baptizing and organizing churches and all that. Under what authority? Right. Now I would say that the authority got from King Noah was probably legit, but King Noah was like operating in the direction the Lord wanted him to be. Well, and see, this is where we have to get into authority versus power when we talk about priesthood, right?

2:27:07 We have the section in Doctrine and Covenants that says anytime I believe it's 121, anytime somebody is acting not in good faith. Amen to this priesthood. Now, does that mean that that man loses his ordination? I would my opinion would be that no, me neither. And but let me explain. Because it says in any degree of unrighteousness. So if we interpret that to mean that if any of us act in any degree of unrighteousness and the use of our priesthood, that we lose the priesthood entirely from that point on, then I would argue that no one has it.

2:27:55 Correct. They're just, you know, I think, I think what the Lord is saying there is understanding that that he can't allow his priesthood to be used for nefarious purposes, but at the same time understanding that that that power can be accessed again once sufficient repentance has happened and forgiveness has been extended. I believe so. And but let me put it this way. I think it's even a little bit more clear cut than that, I believe because it states in that same revelation that where it says when it what it says. Now a lot of people say that when it's he says Amen to the priesthood of that man, that Amen means goodbye. No Amen means so be it.

2:28:43 So when you read that, with that understanding, it says the Spirit of the Lord is grieved and departs, right? And when it says and when it leaves, Amen to the priesthood of that man. So basically nothing we do in the priesthood is valid without the Spirit of the Lord being in, being in agreement with what we're doing. So outside of that, we have no authority. Correct. So now let me ask you this question. So let's say you have a priesthood holder that has been less than virtuous but still officiates in an ordinance. Does that mean that ordinance is null and void? If that ordinance is done properly, the true and faithful record is kept and it's and it's done within the realms of righteousness, I would say that it does have authority. That's what I'm saying.

2:29:45 So look, regardless of what you think of of somebody else coming up who has done something that you don't like, right, and maybe it's even just flat wrong, it doesn't mean that the power of the priesthood isn't still held, but in escrow, right? Meaning that you can't access it. Now, that doesn't mean that you can't pass it along, that just means you don't get to access the power there. We have section 43. Right. Where it states that that Joseph Smith is the law giver to his church and it says it says he will be the law giver to the church if he abide in me, right. And if he abide not in me, he shall have no power except to appoint another in his stead.

2:30:41 Yep. Yep, and I think that's an. Extreme well, and look, we can we can look farther back. We can see this happen in Genesis, right? It it's Jacob, if I'm not mistaken, who's not the birthright, right. The birthright is actually Esau. And how does how does Jacob end up with it? Oh. Some pretty shady things. They trick his father. They trick his dad, right? I mean, so. But yet even though it's under those circumstances, nobody bats an eye like, well, it went to him, right? And so, and we're glad it did. And So what, what I, what I want to say here is that authority can be passed all day long, right?

2:31:24 That's authority. Then you get into being effective in the priesthood, and that requires power. And power in the priesthood is an individual matter, and that's going to be between you and God and your ability to heed his commands and listen to his voice and do the things you're asked to do. And so I think this is one of those places where it's really important to make the distinction between the the authority of the priesthood and the power of the priesthood. There's only one statement that I ever heard Russell M Nelson say that I could kind of completely agree with, and it was when I was in the LDS church. And it it's kind of a startling admission, actually. And this is when he was not president of the church, but he was the acting president of the Quorum of the 12. And at this time, I was in a Bishop brick in Utah County. And we, it was a leadership meeting. And he stood up and he said, brethren, we've been very good about passing along the authority of the priesthood, but we've done a really poor job of teaching men how to stand in the power of the priesthood.

2:32:39 And I thought, wow, that's, that's quite a, a, an indictment. But nonetheless, there is truth to that, that, that those keys can be held in escrow and not be able to be really accessed in the power thereof until somebody is acting in righteousness. Now, there can be a transfer of title, so to speak, right there, that sort of thing. But that's up to the individuals involved to access that. You just made me think that using the word title. That just gave me a very good analogy. I see it here is that you have people that have legal title to a house. Yep.

2:33:19 That house may in under certain stewardship will completely be run down. The weeds will pop up everywhere, nothing will be maintained and it will be in sad shape. But he has legal title to it. Well, he passes that on to someone else. That other person can do completely different with it. But the, the, the important thing here is the legal title. Yes, does pass on. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. And so I, I wanted to talk a little bit about that, but I do want to, to get, get back to the point here that hypno regressive therapy is not a good way of extracting evidence.

2:34:03 And if I'm not mistaken, because look, I do my homework, right? And, and long before I decided I would, I would participate with the Thompson line, I wanted to do my own homework. That evidence, evidence was taken to the, to the prosecuting attorney and the prosecuting attorney laughed it out of his office. He said, I, I can't use this. He's like, this is hokey at best. So there was an effort made and the effort was laughable because quite frankly, the, the, the evidence is laughable.

2:34:46 And, and look for anyone who was abused, I, I am so sorry that you had to endure that. And there are many cases where that, that abuse is legitimate. Just had a young woman on that, that really bore her heart in the, in the, the spirit board testimony that she really endured those things. But in this case, I think we have to look at it and if we're honest in our assessments, I would be very nervous, persecute, prosecute somebody for hypno, regressive therapy. Thanks. So. Much and it seems to be that it's just the three right there were there. There's rumors of others but nothing I can point back to. Well, they're, they're kind of on a Segway here. No, no Segway tangent on a tangent on a tangent here. I hesitate to bring this up because it involves people that probably wouldn't be comfortable nor willing to talk, you know, publicly about this, and I don't really want to say too much to compromise them in any way.

2:36:02 However, a good friend of mine did get the packet of and I'll put in quotations evidence because he, he was, he wanted to know for himself and he, he was Privy to it because he was one of the sons of Joe Thompson and was still a son of Joe Thompson. But you know. I know what you mean, yeah. But anyway, he took a look at it and he shared it with me. And there's the three that I mentioned, but there was an extra 1. And he said the the first three he said were they lacked a lot of credibility, he said, but one of them was credible. So he decided to go talk to that one lady who's one of his sisters.

2:36:51 And when he brought it up to her, she was upset. And he says, is this true? And she said I didn't write that. Oh. And you said she said that she was upset that somebody put her signature or her claimed her name on it. Are you kidding? So someone wrote it for and then brought the document and said I just need you to sign this. Now I want to and doing that that that we really don't know who authored it, but we do know that it was presented to the council. And but see the the problem I have here is they didn't do their due diligence and and literally talk to everyone involved.

2:37:40 And maybe it's just a failing of mankind. It's not necessarily that girl or evil or anything, but like in my case, when I was thrown out of the group the first time, nobody talked to me beforehand to get my side of the story of anything. Correct. Yeah. Judgement was pronounced on me without hearing anything from my side of it. And, you know, I'm sure they got plenty on that, that they could, you know, go after me on stuff because I'm not a perfect person. But I think it's a basic thing. Right. And you? Want to see you? Yes. To hear both sides of the story. Yep. And I'm I'm not an isolated case.

2:38:22 I knew of several were releases were given on marriages when the husband was never spoken to. His wife was just granted a release because she said, you know, said my husband next and, you know, made allegations about their husband one way or the other. They could be as innocuous as he losing his testimony or something like that. And releases were granted. And when they never talked to the guy, yeah, I'm sorry. But, you know, I think due diligence should be given absolutely to look into the truth of the matter. Absolute.

2:39:03 No, it isn't. It is an interesting time to to look back and and look on and look, I got, I got hopes that that there's one more of these coming around this the same topic and in the same time period, because I think I think it does need to be to be talked about and flushed out, right. Well, it's interesting that you say that because currently in the mainstream LDS, there's allegations being made of Satano satanic ritual abuse and a lot of it is under the same hypnotherapy, hypnotherapy things. And some of it has credibility based on the fact that some of it is based on a real case. But there's allegations made beyond that which. Is absolutely, absolutely.

2:39:52 And look, Full disclosure, I didn't, you know, I told you this, I, I did a podcast with a guy who said he was going to, he had all the information, all the document and but it's hokey. Right. Like I have no doubt that there was that, that the Hamlin case, something really happened there, right? Right. But all the adjacent stuff comes from hypno regressive therapy. And then when I see the, the documents for evidence, and they're all Word documents, right, which can be just easily edited, I, I tend to, to raise an eyebrow. That's not an official document. I, as a man who works with public records, I understand what it takes to do that.

2:40:33 That doesn't, that doesn't reach the smell test. And so I, I tend to look at that a little bit and, and with a raised eyebrow and, and we got the same thing here, right? The evidence, the evidence isn't just shaky. It's, it's, it, it can't hold weight. And, and I think it's super important that that we take a look at that. And also I, I'm not a guy who likes seeing justice go on for very long. I feel like if, if, if something's been out there that isn't right, it and you have the opportunity to address and correct it, you probably should. And this, this has been one that as I've studied and I've looked at and like I said, I looked at it long before I decided to participate in, in, in working with the Thompson line here that that I wanted to make sure that my IS were dotted and my T's were crossed.

2:41:29 And everything I looked at pointed to kind of a snow job that happened more than to an actual case of abuse. That was being route it out right. And, and look, if there is abuse going on in groups, you need to route root it out bias pull it up by the roots because you don't want that crap metastasizing inside of your organization or something, a fatal cancer. And so you do need to remove it. But I don't think this was one of those cases. And so that, that's, that's kind of where I fall on it. And, and I felt like, OK, it's, it's one of those lines now that's starting to to do things. It's probably good to take a look at it and and figure out what right where it comes from. But Sean, that's pretty much all I had. Is there anything else you want to wrap up with before we get out of here?

2:42:18 Yes, I just like to. I was just like to repeat a statement made to me by a few then to what is as one of the reasons he knew that brother Joe's accusations were false. Now, of course, this isn't something that's going to, you know, be forensic in any way. But he said, he said to me, you know how I know he's he's he says, you know how I know he's innocent? I says how's that? Says the Book of Mormon tells us that a good man does not produce evil fruit, nor does an A wicked man produce good fruit 100% And he says, what do you think of this community?

2:43:08 I says I love this community. And he says do you think that's the fruit of an evil man? Said no. Now, the reason I say that too is because I have an appreciation beyond what most of the hearers will have and how, you know, with me having said that, as I worked in provincial or rural Mexico quite a bit and I could see how backward some of those people could be in some of those areas. I'm talking about superstitious and a lot of them are uneducated. It's hard to get across ideas.

2:43:49 And when this community started, I was told that they were a lice ridden community with open source. Well, by the time I was there in the early 90s, this colony of this town was the only one that had paved streets. All the houses had beautiful rose or, you know, flowered gardens. They had their their food gardens are really tended really pretty. A lot of their children are very well kept. Very, a lot of their, their youth were becoming doctors, engineers. They had a choir that sang beautifully. They built the temple.

2:44:43 And it was you could. Yeah. I mean, it was. I had never seen anything like that in in any area like that in Mexico. It was beautiful to behold and to say that that is the fruit of an evil man, I just don't see him having the time to do anything. Exactly. Sure. You know. No, 100% and and we saw we see the fruit continue to grow, right. We saw it when when Robert came up here and started working and now seeing it again with, with the group there here in Missouri that that built this temple. Yes, it does seem to produce fruit. Wherever it goes. And that, that again, is, is probably a pretty good indication as well.

2:45:25 Look, and that's not to take away from anybody else's priesthood authority either, right? I do think that there's other valid lines out there working in the priesthood and, and trying to move things forward as well. Dude, good stuff. Awesome. Thanks for doing this, dude. Thank you. Bye everybody.