Episode #204: The Restored Scriptures W/Drew Briney & Joshua Winchell

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The you're listening to the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

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What's going on, man?
So much stuff I can never keep

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track.
How are you?

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I'm doing good.
I'm, I'm excited to talk to you

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about this.
We kind of talked about this

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earlier on and it, it was right
when you were kind of in the in

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the middle of the process
itself, right, So.

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We.
We didn't, we didn't get a

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chance to see that through the
completion.

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So I'm super excited for this.
And then so obviously everyone

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knows what Drew's done on this
project.

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And we're talking about the the,
where do we call them these

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again, Drew, the restored
version, the restored version of

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the scriptures.
In previous podcasts, we've

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spoken about it as the Joseph
Smith version.

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That was kind of our initial
thought, but we kept expanding a

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little bit, so now it's the
restored version.

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Gotcha.
Well, look, knowing who you are,

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Drew, who is a guy who quite
frankly makes the rest of us

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look kind of, I don't know, lazy
because you put out, I don't

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know, a book every six weeks
that like literally I was.

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So I was at the gym the other
day and they had this show.

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I don't even know what show it
was, but it showed this one guy

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running and then there was
another guy running beside him

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and he kept passing him and he
said on your left.

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And he kept doing that to the
one point where the guy just got

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irritated.
And I'm like, that's kind of

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like Drew with printing books,
right?

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Like I'll, I'll be halfway
through a podcast and I think

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Drew passes me as he wrote
another book.

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Like it's crazy the amount of
work you do and it's good, solid

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work, right?
It's work that helps people and

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and gosh, I'm sure thankful for
it so.

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It's good to have you here.
I appreciate that.

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I've I've been a bit
discouraged.

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I've been so slow getting this
stuff finished up.

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So I appreciate those those
thoughts.

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Well, I look at those things as
a chance for a guy like me to

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catch up to what you've done.
So that's that's absolutely

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awesome.
So Josh Winchell, Sir, you are

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here.
Yes, Sir.

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I'm here as support as I always
have been and to kind of guide

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you through the process from say
you're in my perspective because

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your assessment of Drew is
correct.

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I You'd be hard.
Pressed, I think.

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In our communities on
denominations to find someone

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who knows the subtleties of
either Joseph's writings or the

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the Diaries of the second hand,
third hand sources of Joseph's

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writings, you'd be probably hard
pressed to find somebody as

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knowledgeable or even equally
knowledgeable as I'd say Drew.

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I mean, there probably are, but
certainly not at the level even

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amongst the academics that I've
read that that understand the

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nuances of what he's saying
juxtaposed against all of the

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revelations that he gave.
So there's there's a spiritual

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aspect to this that's non
academic, that's essential for

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our, as you said earlier in your
prayer, that's essential for our

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doctrinal well-being.
He understands how it we all do,

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but I think he he understands
the nuances of that.

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So I mean, if I were to to to
laud Drew, I would laud his

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ability to piece together all
that information he worked so

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hard for in a way that's doctor
and elite coherent.

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Perfect.
We'll we'll move on to your role

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in this in just a second, but I
want to drop, drop back here to

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Drew real quick.
So, Drew, when we left off in

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our last conversation, we were
you were still in the in the

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middle of just compiling
everything, getting everything

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ready, putting the finishing
touches on a few things.

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Where do we stand right now with
this?

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Well, if, if I may, I think what
you said might, might be a

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little bit inaccurate.
I, I published and, and I think

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we talked about on your podcast,
though I'm, I'm not 100%

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positive, so I may be incorrect
correction, but I, I previously,

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I published 1840 Book of Mormon
along with the changes made by

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Joseph and, and those changes
were both in 1837 and changes

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that he missed because he used
two different manuscripts.

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So he changed things twice
sometimes.

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So I, I document all those
missed instances from the

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original manuscript as well as
the 1837 change, as well as 1840

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changes that are substantive in
the Book of Mormon.

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And honestly, it it wasn't tons.
And I, I believe I may have also

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mentioned in a previous podcast
that I used that text then to

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create a modern English version
of the Book of Mormon, mostly

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for kids in ESL.
Right, I remember that.

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Yep.
OK, so we did that.

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And then also I, I put out the
text for the, for the Doctrine

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of Covenants and 87 of Joseph
Smith's revelations that were

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not previously canonized and
that, that that hasn't really

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changed other than I'm adding I,
I don't know exactly.

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I haven't kind of lost count.
And I, I had some mistakes in my

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records telling me what it is.
So somewhere between 35 and 40

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revelations of Wilford Woodruff,
John Taylor, Brigham Young,

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Oliver Caldery, other members of
the 12, I think there's one from

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Joseph F Smith that's pretty
early on, late 1800s or

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something.
At any rate, those are all going

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to be, there is an appendix as
well.

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And of course the DNC also has
the lectures on faith.

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If I, if I may, I've, I've had a
lot of surprise questions come

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in to me recently in my inbox
because of the RV, the restored

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version that we're doing.
So I, I've had people being

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confused between my work of
Doctrine Covenants Annotated,

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which will be 7 or 8 volumes and
the restored version.

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And you know, they, they've
asked if I quit that project or

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what's happening.
And, and the answer is no.

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This is the same project in, in,
in part meaning the, the RV text

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for the Doctrine of Covenants
will be what I'm using for the

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annotated version moving
forward.

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And I've also been asked,
although I, I don't know if it's

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official, I'm doing it anyways
to, to prepare historical

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headers for each section of the
DNC.

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And I'll, I'll be preparing
those for the, for the, for the

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same kind of both uses as it
were.

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So there, there's quite a bit of
crossover for that particular

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volume.
So I haven't given that up.

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And I'm actually working on DNC
132 on the side.

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Just did a couple podcasts on
that if anybody's interested in

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kind of catching up because
there's some new research by

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some polygamy deniers, namely
Jeremy Hoop that suggested DNC

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132 might be might have proved
manuscripts were backwards and

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the original was not the
original, vice versa.

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And that could change
everything.

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So I went back and re looked at
every verse in paragraph and

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letter to see if it changed
anything at any rate.

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So then what have we done since
then?

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That was our last podcast.
We've we finished the Pearl of

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grey price, which is the 1851
version, which obviously Joseph

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didn't quote UN quote approve
because he wasn't there.

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So changes made to, for
instance, the book of Genesis,

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sorry, Moses, which is really
the Joseph Smith translation of

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the book of Genesis, changes to
that made in 1851 verses what

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was made by Joseph.
I did not annotate those because

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Joseph didn't do it.
But I did annotate all the

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changes Joseph Smith made to
Genesis through the Joseph Smith

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translation.
Also did the book of Abraham and

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also did Joseph Smith's history.
I'm still waiting on final

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approval from committee members
as to if we're going to include

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stuff that was not in the 1851
version but was in church

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history on that specific detail
and then one hymn and articles

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of Faith.
The rest of the Pearl of Great

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Price in 1851 was multiple
pieces and parts of sections of

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the Doctrine of Covenants that
are already included earlier in

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the work with annotations.
So rather than have 1851 changes

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not approved by Joseph annotated
in the original, DNC just

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ignored them completely because
they were post Joseph.

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Gotcha, Gotcha.
But you said that there are

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things in the Pearl great price.
And forgive me if I'm

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misunderstanding here, Drew, you
did say there were things in the

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1851 that that you left in with
the Pearl.

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Great price, right?
The 1851 Pearl Great Prize to to

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clarify was the Book of Moses,
which is included the Book of

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Abraham, which is included the
Articles of Faith, which is

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included as well as a footnote
because I know a lot of people

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heard there's a 14th article of
faith and can't ever find it.

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So I footnote that 14th.
Well, the alleged 14th article

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of faith in there and then
Joseph Smith history, which is

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as I said, I've been waiting for
the committee to tell me if

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we're going to do the entire
just Smith history.

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That was that was there just the
1851 pieces of it and and then

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it won him the rest of it.
The rest of the 1851 Pearl great

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price was pieces of parts of the
DNC that we have elsewhere.

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OK, maybe DNC 89 was included or
something and and then you know

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that would just be a duplicate
of our DNC 89.

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So I just got rid of it.
But in and that's a bad example

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because that was included in the
1844 DNC.

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But the the point is in 1851,
the point of the Pearl of Great

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Price was to say these are hard
to find revelations.

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It's almost an attempt to update
the Doctrine of Covenants with

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sections that hadn't been
published yet.

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And you know, things that are
things that were kind of hard to

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find.
And you know, some of those

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things were harder to find maybe
in England than they were in

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American, vice versa.
And so they just kind of put

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together what they could to make
it easier access for the Saints.

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In retrospective, from today's
perspective, those things are

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already in the DNC, so I didn't
duplicate them.

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Gotcha.
OK, no, that makes sense.

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I I apologize I I got hung up
there somewhere.

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No, that's OK.
It happens all the time.

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If you thought that somebody
else did too, I guarantee it.

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All right, So real quick before
because I got some real specific

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questions for you here, Drew.
But first I want to turn to Josh

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here real quick.
Josh, what was your role in in

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this project?
Well, to give you that, let me

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give you a little bit of a
history.

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About a year and a half ago, we
were working together.

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There's a there's a fellow by
the name of Michael Sundell

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myself, and then there was Kevin
and Drew.

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But there were a few of us that
were working together.

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We were a little bit unsatisfied
with what we call the 1981 LDS

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scriptures, and a lot of it had
to do with diversification and

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the breaking up of thought
ideas, as well as some of the

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the nuances, and we can get into
that on the Book of Mormon.

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We didn't really like the way
that that the 1981 had split

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those things up and kind of
Jarred ideas into small little

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bites instead of giving a more
holistic or a more complete

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approach.
To to.

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To the writings, to the, to the
prophecies and to a lot of the

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doctrines.
And so we got together and we

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said, hey, what we really need
is we need a clean version, a

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Joseph Smith version, a, an
original restorative version of

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the Book of Mormon.
And as those conversations came

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out, we really felt there were a
couple of of telephone meetings

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and a couple of the very, very
strong spirit of of togetherness

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and unity on this.
That brought us to the point

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where we said, Hey, do we do a
quad?

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How about a triple?
What did we bring in the

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Doctrine and Covenants?
What about the uncanonized

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revelations?
And it kind of blossomed from

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there.
But it was the Book of Mormon

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that really stood out.
And you know, that was you

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talking about the impetus and
how it brought it together.

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It was we wanted what we what we
called clean, but was a more

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complete restorative Joseph
Smith version of the Book of

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Mormon that flowed with
thoughts, ideas and readability,

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but still allowed, say, the 1876
versifications of Orson Pratt so

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that we could all be on the same
page.

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If I say first Nephi 316, you
can look down the paragraph,

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find it, and somebody with the
1981 can find it and there's

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continuity to it.
So that's what started it.

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And as it went through, there
was a process of growth, I think

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on all sides, but especially on
the side of us learning as Drew

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kind of helped us to, to see his
perspective on the way Joseph

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would approach, say, a Book of
Mormon, clear, a clear Book of

223
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,200
Mormon.
And, and there was a lot of

224
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,080
growth in it.
And I've, I've got a lot to say

225
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,400
on that because I basically
answered all the questions that

226
00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,080
you have.
I got answered through the

227
00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,720
process.
I was Dave Sanders as it were

228
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,320
approaching this saying, Hey,
you know, I, I really am in love

229
00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,040
with the original grammar and
syntax and even spelling errors

230
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,640
of the 1830 because it's just so
unique and so spiritually

231
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,440
powerful to me.
And we you walk through the fact

232
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:53,480
and Drew helps and says, well,
you know that Brandon was was

233
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,960
responsible for a lot of that
stylist or not stylistic, but

234
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,160
syntax and a lot of the
formatting.

235
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,640
Of that it didn't.
Come from Joseph, it didn't come

236
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,400
from Oliver, it didn't come from
an LDS person.

237
00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,520
And you'll learn as you go.
And so you start seeing it, you

238
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,640
know, and you read it and you
reread it and you reread it and

239
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,440
finally you really appreciate
where we're going with it.

240
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,840
So it's kind of a long winded, I
hope that I answered your

241
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,320
question, but that's where we
came from and what we ended up

242
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,600
is with is a triple, it's a
triple combination.

243
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,560
It's clean.
It's what we would say is a

244
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,960
Joseph Smith version or the the
best version we can find that

245
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,600
would be contiguous to what
Joseph would be preaching,

246
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,520
saying, and even editing.
Oh, I appreciate the background

247
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,440
there, but but my question was
what was your role in this

248
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,480
process?
OK, So I brought to the table, I

249
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,920
was kind of a unifying member in
that we had the, there's two of

250
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,640
us, well, a few of us that had
the resources to really get this

251
00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,200
off the ground.
Drew's in a position where he,

252
00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,040
he loves the work that he does,
but he also needs to sustain

253
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:05,760
himself and, and, and his, and
his livelihood, his way of life.

254
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,160
So we had to support on that
side.

255
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:14,960
And also we had the the rigors
of both marketing and getting

256
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,520
out there and really trying to
help unify people behind this to

257
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,640
both with Kevin, myself,
Michael, you know, just

258
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,160
basically shaking hands, you
know, beating the concrete,

259
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,520
calling up people and saying,
Hey, we, we really, really want

260
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,000
to put these things in your
hands.

261
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:37,840
We want you to appreciate it.
I kind of served as a as a, a

262
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,960
litmus test against what either
fundamentalists from even

263
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,880
mainstreamers might say when
they're approaching all the

264
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,120
annotations in here, because
you're going to get lengthy

265
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,160
explanations as to why decisions
were made.

266
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,600
And I was kind of on the other
side on that.

267
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,440
I was the one saying, I like to
get my hands into this stuff.

268
00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,280
I really like to figure things
out for myself.

269
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,800
But for the sake of contention
and argument, you do need Drew

270
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,480
there saying the decision was
made to add these words because

271
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,200
Joseph did this and it, it
clarifies it for you and it, it

272
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,640
takes away the disputation and
allows you to really trust in

273
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,839
the scriptures themselves and in
the version that we're offering.

274
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,520
So I was kind of brought slowly
and weaned into this and I was

275
00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,960
like, you know, for the first,
for the first issue, we, we

276
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,960
might need some annotations to
keep people on the same page.

277
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,000
So that's what I served as.
I served as a litmus test or a

278
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:38,640
board that that says, Hey, I'm
just your average fundamentalist

279
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,720
and I want to understand why
this book is better than say,

280
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,080
the 1981 version of the
scriptures.

281
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,680
And if it went through and it
answers all those questions

282
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,040
through Drew's words and
through, we did a lot of copy

283
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,320
editing and a lot of air proof.
Not not copy editing, but

284
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,160
spelling errors walking through,
making sure there were

285
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:01,880
consistencies and dates and the
rest of it.

286
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,760
We're kind of like his support
staff.

287
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,920
Got you.
OK, so, Drew, I, I want to, I

288
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,160
want to go back to you now
because now I got some kind of

289
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,520
technical questions here.
Yeah.

290
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:20,160
So Josh alluded to he, he really
enjoyed the 1830 version of the

291
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,680
Book of Mormon, right?
Which if I'm not mistaken, is,

292
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,080
is a it, it reads like a novel,
right?

293
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,440
Or at least that's the replica
that I have, right?

294
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,520
It's got chapters, but it's not.
It's not.

295
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,280
Doesn't have verses.
In it or.

296
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,360
Anything else?
Now.

297
00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,880
That's not the way it's going to
read though, right?

298
00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,880
Or did did you put in
versification or did you go back

299
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,360
to that 1830 format?
Great.

300
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,440
So it wasn't just the 1830 and
1837 and 1840 versions were also

301
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,520
paragraph formatted.
Ours was sort of the Doctrine of

302
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,040
Covenants and just Smith history
and some other things.

303
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,600
That was just the way they read
back then.

304
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,760
And I think it's a better way of
reading than the very disjunct

305
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,880
verse by verse.
So we kept paragraphing.

306
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,960
However, I, I put AI put a chart
at the beginning of each book of

307
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,520
Scripture and said it, I'm
answering your question, but I'm

308
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:22,800
taking a step back to run.
And it says, what did Joseph

309
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:30,520
Smith contribute to this book?
And what did the RV have to do

310
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,840
with this book?
So the first, and this is

311
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,800
something we, we looked at as a
committee and I spent a lot of

312
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:41,480
time talking to everybody about
explaining that, you know, we

313
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:45,120
talked about the 1830 version
as, as being the perfect

314
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,360
version, but it had a lot of
errors.

315
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,720
When Oliver Cowdery transferred
the original manuscript to the

316
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,600
printer's manuscript, that was
then changed by the printer for

317
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,840
the 1830 Book of Mormon, Oliver
Cowdery averaged 3 errors per

318
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,160
page.
And then the printer made.

319
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,800
Changes and errors as well.
So that's why in 1830, that's

320
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,040
one of the reasons why in 1837
Joseph went through and revamped

321
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,480
it.
And again in 1840, So at the

322
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,280
beginning of the Book of Mormon,
for instance, it said, what did

323
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,280
Joseph Smith contribute to this
book?

324
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,280
Did he contribute the text?
And the answer is yes.

325
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,040
He's the one who revealed the
text.

326
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,800
He spoke the text.
It was written down, chances

327
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,360
that it was written down word
for word it pretty much beat

328
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,640
been 100% debunked by scholars
and I I would agree with all of

329
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,680
them if there's no way it was
done word for word from for

330
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,760
multiple reasons looking at the
manuscripts and changes that

331
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,120
were made and and edits and so
forth.

332
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:48,160
If you want more information on
that you can read.

333
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,280
Dang not clear on Skazen.
It's his son's name.

334
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:58,080
Royal Royal Skousen.
Yes, it's 1830 edition of the

335
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,840
Book of Mormon.
Fabulous research, incredible

336
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:05,560
resource.
So then, then we say, did Joseph

337
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,520
contribute to the paragraphing?
The answer is no, he had nothing

338
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,560
to do with it.
Did he contribute to the

339
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,240
spelling?
No, Very, very few instances

340
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,960
that he had anything to do with
spelling error ever.

341
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,800
Which is probably a very good
thing if you read the stuff that

342
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,200
he wrote in his own hand.
Spelling was not standardized,

343
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,240
which alone is reason to ignore
spelling.

344
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,960
But Joseph's spelling was also
very poor.

345
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,080
So did he contribute the
spelling?

346
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,080
No.
Did he contribute the

347
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,240
punctuation?
No.

348
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,240
And so then we go back and say
what did?

349
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,120
Who did?
Well, the printer did the

350
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:47,480
paragraphing and the printer did
the paragraphing in the Book of

351
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,200
Mormon by saying, oh, it says,
and it came to pass.

352
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,520
So let's make that a new
paragraph.

353
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:56,520
That was it pretty much like
8090% of the time, whatever it

354
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,000
was very high percentage.
I think Royal Skousen states it

355
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:04,120
to sound like it was every
single time he did that.

356
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:05,680
That's that's the only
paragraphing.

357
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,840
And that may or may not be an
accurate understanding of what

358
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,160
he wrote.
That's that's what I gathered

359
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,960
from it.
That said, the the paragraphing

360
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,520
is therefore clearly not
inspired unless you're bound and

361
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,600
determined to think the printer
was inspired, in which case I

362
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,320
invite you to look at all of his
airs.

363
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,120
So and Joseph also.
I believe the number is 67.

364
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,800
I could be wrong.
And somewhere around there he

365
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,200
deleted the words and it came to
pass like 67 times in his

366
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,520
editing of the Book of Mormon,
which is fascinating for lots of

367
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,480
reasons.
So anyway, we took, and it was a

368
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,160
pretty big work to take clans or
Royal Skousen's paragraphing and

369
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,240
incorporated that into the
restored version.

370
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,440
I have a lot of admiration for
Cleon Skousen.

371
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,520
And it's pretty clear that Royal
Skousen did not far away, fall

372
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,160
far away from the apple tree, as
it were.

373
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,320
That old saying.
He's clearly has a very strong

374
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,160
testimony of the Book of Mormon.
I think he did a great job.

375
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,680
There were a number of instances
where his formatting and

376
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:18,520
paragraphing didn't work for our
version because we have modern

377
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:23,400
verses and modern chapters put
in as opposed to the old

378
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,760
original that nobody can use for
reference anymore.

379
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:32,320
And and that modified sometimes
not very most time, not very

380
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:36,280
significantly, but sometimes a
little bit significantly how we

381
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:41,280
broke up the paragraphs.
But we used his as a, as a model

382
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,280
largely because he went through
and said, when does the sense of

383
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,120
the story change?
And that's how we do it today,

384
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,840
right?
And so so he did that.

385
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,560
So it reads very much smoothly,
like a novel, if you will,

386
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:59,760
without disjunct brakes.
But we have small Gray mini

387
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,880
verses to indicate the new
modern versification, as Joshua

388
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,880
mentioned, much like Christians
do in their in their Bibles.

389
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:11,040
So it's easy both to find the
verses that you're looking for.

390
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,200
If you're if you're looking up
scholarly work and somebody

391
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:18,640
says, hey, I'm quoting second
Messiah or first Mosiah 25, you

392
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,960
can easily find it.
Whereas if you looked at it

393
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:26,360
18401837 or 1830 Book of Mormon
lithographic version, you would

394
00:24:26,360 --> 00:24:30,480
not have that ability.
So it makes it both clean like

395
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,240
the original and usable for
reference like any modern versus

396
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,880
scripture.
So anyway, I think that only

397
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,720
partially answered your
question, but if you want to

398
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,800
restate it, I'll finish.
Oh, I can't.

399
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,480
To be honest with you, I I can't
even remember now.

400
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,320
It's something about readability
and paragraphing and.

401
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,680
Yeah, the the, the versification
in there, right, Because

402
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,000
versification did lend itself to
being able to find things a

403
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,800
little easier, right, Because
you broke them down by chapter

404
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,640
and verse.
Is there something that still

405
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:10,240
does that without versification?
Without versification, no, I, I,

406
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,920
I really don't think so.
We, we looked at it at doing

407
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,640
alternate versions, but the fact
of the matter is you've got

408
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,000
thousands of thousands of
periodicals of books that will

409
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,160
say 351112.
And if you can't find 351112 in

410
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,720
your version of scriptures used
for study, you're going to have

411
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:32,880
to rely on something else.
And frankly, I, I believe this

412
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:40,640
version is not only restoring
every word, every contribution

413
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,280
of Joseph Smith and annotating
all of his changes.

414
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,840
I, I, I think it's far superior
in that way.

415
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,160
And it's a better resource to
read as kind of a purists

416
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,160
version of the scriptures.
You're happy the descriptions

417
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,960
have been changed and you're
glad every time there's a new

418
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,000
edition and they get rid of some
doctrine you don't like, this

419
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,480
restored version is not for you.
If you have a testimony of

420
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,320
Joseph Smith's work and you say
don't tamper and mess with it,

421
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,160
then this, this version is
exactly what you want.

422
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,960
And and you know, frankly,
there's still some errors that

423
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:23,040
were left by Joseph that we
could have inserted and changed

424
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,240
the grammar or something to make
it make sense better, but we

425
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,160
didn't.
In very few instances we put in

426
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,920
a word with brackets like the
word are, you know, we are going

427
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:36,560
or something instead of we
going.

428
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,400
We did a few, very few of those
just because it's so confusing

429
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,600
to read without it that I had to
go back and look and say, you

430
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,560
know, this, this TypeScript I
got of AOCR version of the

431
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,800
original 1840 bookworm.
And is it is it that they make a

432
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,240
mistake here?
The ground was so bad doesn't

433
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:57,560
make any sense at all.
So there were a few of those,

434
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,880
but for the, for the vast, vast,
vast majority of it, that it's

435
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,200
Joseph's words, period, done, no
changes.

436
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,360
Because that's what that's what
I wanted and that's what the

437
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:11,840
rest of the team wanted from the
very beginning.

438
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,160
That's what we call it, a clean
version, a peer version,

439
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,560
whatever you want to call it.
The idea is this is what Joseph

440
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,200
wrote, this is what he approved.
And if he changed anything at

441
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,680
all, it's footnoted.
So you can see what he changed

442
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:25,360
when he changed it and why he
changed it.

443
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:31,240
Well, maybe not always why, but
you can kind of infer that and

444
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,400
so on so forth.
So let let me ask you this.

445
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:39,120
Did you give as you were going
through sources right and you're

446
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:42,520
comparing the 1830 and and I
can't remember?

447
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,480
1837 and 1840.
Right.

448
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,480
Did you like weight 1840 higher
than say, you would the 1830

449
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,200
version or whatever?
Because it was later in Joseph's

450
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,640
life.
Yes.

451
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,280
So if for instance, the the 1840
version book of the Book of

452
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:04,840
Mormons says they were white and
delightsome or sorry, the 1840

453
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,320
version says pure and
delightsome, right?

454
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,200
So because Joseph changed that
it wasn't a committee even it

455
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,560
was Joseph.
So it would the word pure and

456
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,880
delightsome.
The word pure would have a

457
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,080
footnote and it would say the
original manuscript said light

458
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,320
white and delightsome, right?
So you can see Joseph, obviously

459
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:26,760
he's the one that said white and
delightsome.

460
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,400
It wasn't Oliver County wasn't
described, presumably possible,

461
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,960
but presumably.
But when Joseph looked at, he

462
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,040
said the intention of that word
was pure.

463
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,840
And you know, I for whatever
ever reason it grabbed his

464
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,480
attention, whether he felt it
was racist or whether he felt it

465
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,560
was just misleading or
distracting or whatever, he

466
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,800
changed it.
So we went with his 1840 change,

467
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,600
italicized the word he changed,
and footnoted the earlier

468
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,720
versions of what he changed,
which sometimes is 3 or 4

469
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,560
changes.
For instance, 8 the original

470
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,760
manuscript might say one thing,
the printer's manuscript might

471
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:13,760
might say another. 1837 might
have made a change, but then it

472
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,880
used the printer's manuscript,
and then the 1840 used the

473
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,800
original manuscript.
So he might have gone back to

474
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,960
the original version, skipped
the change he made from the

475
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,040
printer's manuscript, and used
the original version.

476
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,600
But all of those would be
annotated so you would see the

477
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:35,920
progression of changes.
Now we did not annotate non

478
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,160
substantive changes.
And for people who don't know

479
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,920
that word very well, if it
doesn't change the meaning, I

480
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,160
didn't annotate it.
But with a degree in logic and a

481
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,880
degree in philosophy and a
degree in law, I looked at

482
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,760
everything and said does this
comma change the meaning?

483
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,720
Possibly.
And if I could come up with a

484
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:05,920
not a very good, but it somewhat
reasonable rational reason why

485
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,600
somebody in the RLDS movement or
somebody in the Snuffer movement

486
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,080
or somebody in the AUB might
say, yeah, that changes the

487
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,000
meaning.
Here's why.

488
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:23,160
Then I I annotated that, yeah.
And then my next question here,

489
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,720
and, and I'm going to ask you,
I'm going to ask you to jump

490
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:34,960
into kind of, I don't want to
say speculative mode, but an

491
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,360
educated guess.
I, you know, for lack of a

492
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,360
better term, as you went through
those changes from 1830 to all

493
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:48,480
the way to 1840, what do you
notice at the end that Joseph is

494
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,880
changing most in the Book of
Mormon?

495
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,520
I'm glad you asked that in in
the Book of Mormon.

496
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,240
Honestly, there are fewer
substantive changes than

497
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,000
anywhere else.
First of all, there were tons of

498
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,720
changes in the DNC and for lots
of reasons we can we can talk

499
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,840
about, but sticking specifically
to the Book of Mormon, Joseph

500
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,800
Smith was trying to make it
easier to read.

501
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,440
There's in several articles have
pointed this out, but there's

502
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,440
clearly Hick language from time
to time.

503
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,480
There's clearly very poor
grammar.

504
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,800
From time to time you can, and
people can get upset.

505
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,360
Well, don't you remember the
doctor in covenance?

506
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,240
That guy got in trouble 'cause
he tried to correct Lord's

507
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,600
grammar and blah blah blah.
That assumes that the Book of

508
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,200
Mormon was written word by word,
which is a later hearsay account

509
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,000
that conflicts with other
accounts of how the Book of

510
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,040
Mormon was received.
And it ignores the fact that

511
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:42,840
Joseph Smith made lots of
changes.

512
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,880
Not just substantive changes,
lots of changes.

513
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,960
One of the very interesting
things and I, I believe Royal

514
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,560
Skousen is the one that talks
about this.

515
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,840
I'd have to double check that
citation, but I'm pretty sure

516
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,520
he's the 1 and I it's, it's in
one of our appendices.

517
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,520
Anyways, I cite the correct
source because it's straight in

518
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,880
my brain at the time.
But any rate, he, I believe it's

519
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:11,560
Royal Skousen that notes that
Joseph Smith got rid of many

520
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,280
places Old English and was
bringing forth Modern English to

521
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,640
make it easier to read.
He also was systematically going

522
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:27,480
through phrases and sentences
that were difficult passages to

523
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,560
understand grammatically where
people were having a hard time

524
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,280
understanding it and saying what
this doesn't make any sense.

525
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,400
Kind of like DNC 132 verse 7.
It's just the worst grammar

526
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,000
ever.
And so he would go through those

527
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,800
and say, this is hard to
understand.

528
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,600
Let me add this word or two that
makes it easier to understand.

529
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,400
And that was his change.
And so there was a lot of

530
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,800
effort.
And this was really kind of

531
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,160
surprising to me.
But as you go through, you see

532
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,920
all the changes.
It's pretty clear he was trying

533
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,240
to make it easier to read, which
to me Harkins back to William

534
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,760
Tyndale.
And I, I doubt, I don't know if

535
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,560
Joseph knew who William Tyndale
was or if he had any inclination

536
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,400
to do the same thing, but
William Tendo is the first one

537
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,360
to translate the Bible into
English from Greek and a little

538
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,800
bit from the Hebrew.
And when he did, he said I

539
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,160
wanted to be easy enough for the
plowboy to understand.

540
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,760
And what that reference was for
people that maybe that sounds

541
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:30,120
obscure is I want the uneducated
guy to understand this very

542
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,280
well.
I, I don't want this to be

543
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,240
something the academic can read.
I don't want it to be something

544
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,600
that somebody super educated can
figure out.

545
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,400
I want the average person
without an education to be able

546
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,560
to read this and understand it.
And I, I see that very much in

547
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:48,880
Joseph's efforts.
And I believe it was Royal

548
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,280
Scouts and I mentioned the same
thing.

549
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,280
And to me, I very much
appreciate that because one of

550
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,360
one of the most important pieces
I found in doing this research

551
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,600
is, is, is, I believe it's a
letter from Joseph Smith to

552
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,760
either WWE Phelps or Carly P
Pratt.

553
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,360
Pardon me for forgetting, but
anyway, he says you're part of

554
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,800
the scripture committee.
You're going to be, you're going

555
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,480
to you're going to what's the
word?

556
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:19,960
I believe you just said the word
correct.

557
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:25,639
But they were supposed to choose
the revelations to use and then

558
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:30,639
correct them was the verbiage.
And he says the letter says

559
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:33,280
that's the DNC that commands
them to do that.

560
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,360
He says when you're doing that,
make sure not to change the

561
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:42,760
sense or in other words, the,
the interpretation of that

562
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,440
passage, that you're just
correcting your grammar or a

563
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,000
comma or whatever to make it
more readable.

564
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,000
And to me that's a very
significant thing.

565
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,159
I, I personally believe God
wants scripture to be easy to

566
00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,800
read.
It doesn't have to be 600 year

567
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,400
old language.
And I know that if anybody wants

568
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,600
to correct me, I know that the
King James Version wasn't done

569
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,960
in 1400s, but it's uses old
language for King James time

570
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,840
dating dating back to the 1400s.
So we're looking at 600 year old

571
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,960
language.
A lot of people can't understand

572
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,680
ESL, people can't understand it,
children can't understand it.

573
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,560
I think Joseph was making an
effort to fix that as he

574
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,160
realized it was a challenge.
And that was a, a surprise to

575
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,760
me, but I was very gratified
because I, I think that's how

576
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,360
God wants it to be easy to
understand, not obtuse.

577
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:36,640
Got you.
No, absolutely.

578
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,040
I see your hand up Josh.
I'm going to get to you in just

579
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,800
one second.
I got one follow up question

580
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,240
here though, before I lose my
train of thought, and that is

581
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,880
Drew and, and the reason I ask
about those changes is, is that

582
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:54,320
we see Joseph's theology develop
and become more enhanced more.

583
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,200
I don't want to use the word
complicated because I don't

584
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,960
think that's it maybe more
intricate, right?

585
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:07,600
As as we go, as we go from from
Palmyra into Pennsylvania up to

586
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,360
Ohio into Missouri and then
finally into Nauvoo, his his the

587
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:19,080
the doctrine that Joseph's
revealing is is constantly being

588
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:24,760
expanded, right?
Do we get a sense that some of

589
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,680
those those same doctrinal
revelations that Joseph has

590
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,920
influences the way that he does
those later, and it's in the

591
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:41,280
Book of Mormon in 1840?
I don't I, I, I see almost no

592
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,440
evidence of that.
There is of course, the famous

593
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:48,840
God came down among men and was
sacrificed and you know, this,

594
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,360
this stuff in first Nephi and
the tree of tree of life vision,

595
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,360
I believe it's in Christina by
10 or 11.

596
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,160
That obviously is doctrinally
significant at a major level,

597
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,440
but the Book of Mormon really
doesn't address very many topics

598
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,800
that he was teaching in Nauvoo.
So I, I just don't see very many

599
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:16,480
edits from him that that may
manifest deeper understandings.

600
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,200
If we're talking about the
doctrine of covenants, I have a

601
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,960
totally different answer, but
for the Book of Mormon I don't

602
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,240
think it really affected much.
That's interesting and and that

603
00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:30,040
would to be honest, that would
kind of make sense to me for a

604
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,400
while now.
I've been certainly there are

605
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,800
allusions to exaltation in the
Bible and the Book of Mormon,

606
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,240
but I don't think we really
start dealing with exaltation

607
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:42,520
till we get to the Doctrine and
Covenants and Pearl a great

608
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,880
price.
I, I still contend that that,

609
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,160
and, and this isn't crap talking
either one of those books of

610
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:49,640
scripture, right?
They're vital, they're

611
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,200
important, they're needed, but
they're, they're still Vidic

612
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,360
texts, right?
They deal with salvation, not

613
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,840
exaltation.
So I was curious if any of that

614
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,480
made its way.
And we'll go to the Doctrine and

615
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,640
Covenants here in just a second.
I want to go to Josh now.

616
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,120
He's been patient.
I saw his hand up.

617
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:07,160
Well, I just wanted to go back
and kind of reiterate and then

618
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,760
distinguish some of the things
that Drew said.

619
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,880
He's absolutely correct about
Joseph Smith.

620
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,600
Even with the King James
Version.

621
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,360
If you look at the translations
that Joseph made to the King

622
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,640
James Version, especially if you
look at say Genesis 14 with the

623
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,080
with the full fleshing out of
the city of Salem and

624
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,480
Melchizedek and all of that,
you'll see that his language is

625
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,520
a lot clearer than the, than the
writings of say the King James

626
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,520
original version.
Now, having said that, a portion

627
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,840
of my family history reaches
into the Hebrew side of things

628
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,640
and there are passages in the
Book of Mormon that I just, I, I

629
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,760
couldn't fathom living without.
There is poetic devices.

630
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,640
There's chiasmus.
Oh, that I were an Angel.

631
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,360
When you read that and when you
read Nephi and he starts going

632
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:05,400
into those chiasmus roles and
they're absolutely poetic.

633
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,760
And you're looking at a farm boy
with the 6th grade education and

634
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,880
he's writing these chiasmus
rules.

635
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,080
They're translating them.
Excuse me.

636
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:19,080
Those things are absolutely
necessary for my spiritual

637
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,840
well-being.
Poetic and and there are other

638
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,880
things.
Too that are Old Testament about

639
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:28,360
it it just it speaks volumes to
the Judaic or to the Hebrew

640
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,200
history actually the Abrahamic
history of our of our.

641
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:37,160
Covenants and our people.
And so I'm glad in this version

642
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,360
you're going to when you read
the Book of Mormon in this, in

643
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,840
the revert, in this restored
version, you're going to be a

644
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,400
chapter and 1/2 in before you
even know where you're at.

645
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,000
It's going to read that smooth
and the retention.

646
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,000
I know this because I've done it
twice.

647
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,160
You're going to be at least a
half a chapter into a into the

648
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,120
Book of Mormon and say, whoa,
where's the time?

649
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,200
What number?
Oh, I'm in, I'm in 14 first neat

650
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,960
by chapter 14.
It's that smooth.

651
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,240
It reads that smoothly.
I am I am grateful for the

652
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:08,360
updates for that, but there are
certain aspects of those

653
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,600
scriptures that we have retained
that flavor and I think should

654
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,760
be retained.
So I mean, I just kind of wanted

655
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,080
to point that out.
And Drew Drew actually does

656
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:19,640
that.
He does a very good job in there

657
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,480
with the footnote saying, hey,
we can weigh this against

658
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,440
modern, modern language and we
can lose some poetry if you want

659
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,760
to do it too much and hit the
blend is just really nice.

660
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,840
So that that was my my comments.
Gotcha, gotcha.

661
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,400
So Drew, let's move on to the
Doctrine and Covenants because

662
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:44,560
this one is like the DNC is
really interesting because I

663
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:49,080
don't think there's another book
of Scripture out there that you

664
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,640
hear the Lord's first person as
much as you do in the Doctrine

665
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,760
and Covenants, right?
I think that that this is a

666
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,520
unique set of Scripture because
what it is, is the Lord

667
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,960
educating Joseph on how the
church and the Kingdom are are

668
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,960
supposed to operate.
So as you started to approach

669
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:11,280
the Doctrine and Covenants here
doing much the same thing again,

670
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,280
how did you wait?
Evidence, that sort of thing.

671
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,240
Yeah.
So I had to make it one this

672
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:25,200
this decision early on in, in
making that decision, and I

673
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:30,280
really agonized it over it and
had to spend a considerable

674
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:38,680
amount of time just just reading
over the the DNC changes and

675
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,480
asking myself kind of what
you're just asking.

676
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,800
So here's here's the tricky part
of this.

677
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,480
So, so the, the short answer is
I, I, I same as the Book of

678
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,280
Mormon.
I, I went for the 1844.

679
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,400
That's the last one.
He had his hands on Joseph.

680
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,280
So the tricky part is and, and
you can read a little bit about

681
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,680
this in the Joseph Smith Papers
project online.

682
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,720
They they do a good job of
talking about some of the

683
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:06,000
detail.
They of course are very

684
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,640
deferential to Joseph as as I
am, but you can make an argument

685
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:15,760
that Joseph didn't have anything
to do with 1844 version.

686
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,560
He wrote a couple letters, he
talked to people, but we don't

687
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,920
have record of him touching
anything but like 2 sentences

688
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,360
for the whole thing.
Now you can come to two

689
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,280
conclusions from that and say,
well, just because we don't have

690
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,200
a record of it doesn't mean it
didn't happen.

691
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,760
Maybe there's a lot of talking
between Oliver Cattery and

692
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,080
Joseph.
And you know, Oliver Cattery was

693
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,960
maybe very meticulous taking
notes and and we have his notes

694
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,120
recording the things Joseph said
and those are what made it into

695
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:55,080
the 1844 Doctrine Covenants.
Or you could take the cynical

696
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,440
view and say it was mostly
Oliver cadre and the team, the

697
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,360
committee appointed, by the way,
in revelation of the Doctrine of

698
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,680
Covenants, the committee was
appointed who made the changes

699
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,160
and Joseph really didn't see it
much.

700
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:16,320
You could excuse me.
Those are kind of two extended

701
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:22,120
arguments that you can make.
I assume looking at the

702
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:27,600
historical Joseph, looking at
the entirety of what he did,

703
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,480
what he stood for, arguments he
made, how he thought, all those

704
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,680
types of things, that he would
have taken this revision of the

705
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:42,040
DNC very seriously and would not
have in any way thought Oliver

706
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:43,880
County did a good enough job.
I don't need to worry about it.

707
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,280
I don't see that personality.
I don't see that in his, his

708
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:53,600
historical Joseph.
I understand he was busy, he got

709
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,960
lynched, he got mobbed.
He had, you know, internal

710
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,800
struggles and he had new
problems with polygamy and had

711
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,160
people trying to kill him.
And parts of this, you know,

712
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,400
part of part of the time he was
very distracted for sure.

713
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:11,480
But I, I don't believe that he
just kind of handed it over and

714
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,760
let them do everything and
didn't worry about it.

715
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,680
I just, I just don't see that as
a, as a real possibility.

716
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:24,080
So that said, there is evidence
and very clear evidence that in

717
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,680
some places an English committee
member is editing because they

718
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:34,160
put English spelling into the
Doctrine of Covenants and they

719
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,160
leave the Old English.
Whereas another place, place,

720
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:43,200
sorry, you see American spelling
and you see them get rid of Old

721
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,920
English and incorporate more
modern English as Joseph was

722
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,600
doing in the Book of Mormon.
There's actually quite a bit of

723
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,440
that in it is more frequent and
common than the other way

724
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,960
around.
So looking, looking at those

725
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:04,160
things, I, I come to the
conclusion Joseph either was

726
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:09,240
directly or indirectly or
involved to a significant, to a

727
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:14,200
significant enough degree that I
say in, in the appendices, it

728
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:20,640
may say Joseph retained this
change, but arguably an academic

729
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,640
could come in and say, I'm
positive that was Oliver

730
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,280
Counter.
You change that was not Joseph.

731
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,000
Yeah, I, I can't, I, I don't
think anybody could definitively

732
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,880
say that, but you could go argue
it And, and, you know, somebody

733
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,240
came and made that argument and
gave me sophisticated reason.

734
00:45:37,240 --> 00:45:39,920
I can say, ah, I can see where
you're coming from.

735
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,160
That doesn't mean Joseph didn't
approve it, but I can see that's

736
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,240
Oliver Counter's handwriting.
It's his, it's his way of

737
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:52,000
speaking or something.
But you we also know that Joseph

738
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,800
was directing Oliver Calgary to
do specific things in specific

739
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:01,840
sections and in a doing so we
you know, we can look at those

740
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:06,800
changes and say Joseph directed
them if not approved them.

741
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,680
So I presume therefore, and I I
make very clear this assumption

742
00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:19,840
in the appendices that Joseph
either guided or approved of the

743
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,200
changes made in DNC 1844
version.

744
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,360
Gotcha, gotcha.
He didn't do that to once he

745
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,640
didn't reveal and they were
published after he died.

746
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,280
But at least for his own
revelations, I I presume that's

747
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,160
true.
OK.

748
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,600
And then now you, you said
something interesting, right

749
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,760
when when I asked where was back
when we were talking about the

750
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,440
Book of Mormon, if you noticed
anything of the changes he made

751
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:53,920
that really showed his doctrinal
maturation, right?

752
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,880
His maturing in the doctrine,
that doctrine being expanded.

753
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,080
And you said not so much in the
Book of Mormon, but definitely

754
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,680
in the Doctrine and Covenants.
What kind of changes did you see

755
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,920
that really tips tips his hand
that he did that?

756
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,120
Shoot several examples.
I, I, I talked to you a little

757
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,480
bit about this before.
So if if anybody wants a deeper

758
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,120
discussion, they can go back to
your earlier podcast when I

759
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:24,400
would talk about DNC 42 and 7642
is a really, really good example

760
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,560
of a section that was massively
changed.

761
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:33,120
A lot of it's not arguably not
substantive, It doesn't change

762
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:38,960
doctrine, but what it does do is
update that scripture to reflect

763
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:44,160
new revelations about
administrative affairs of the

764
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,520
church.
So the original might say, you

765
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,000
know, get 2 elders and they will
judge this matter.

766
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:55,040
And then the, the version in
1844 that we'll read today will

767
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,480
say give the matter to the high
council and they'll judge or

768
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,040
something like that.
Or, you know, organize a, a

769
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,920
council of high priests and
they'll judge the matter or

770
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,400
something like that.
So over and over, like literally

771
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,960
every couple few verses, there
are changes in DNC 42.

772
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:18,280
It's almost as much footnote as
it is as text, which I really

773
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,680
wanted to avoid.
But that's just an artifact of

774
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,320
that particular section.
There were many, many, many

775
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,320
changes because it's an
administrative section.

776
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,320
It's talking about how to do
consecration, how to apply the

777
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,840
principle.
And in doing so, it might have

778
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,640
said an elder now says Bishop,
might have said two elders now

779
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,000
says high council.
Things like that were changed a

780
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,400
lot.
And so, you know, that's his

781
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,360
changing understanding of how
the church operates on an

782
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,800
administrative level.
And and there may be some

783
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,240
doctrinal things in there that
aren't coming to my mind this

784
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:59,280
very instant.
But DNC 76 is a different

785
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,320
matter.
There we, we have a number of

786
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:08,360
places where that the change
could arguably make a very big

787
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:12,560
doctrinal change.
And the, the one that I, I

788
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,480
discussed with you last time on
70 sixes is the most significant

789
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,840
to me.
Although I could make an

790
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,320
argument looking back at at some
earlier sections where the same

791
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:27,080
change was made that it, it
isn't as doctrinally substantive

792
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,480
as I believe it is or as I
argued last time.

793
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,440
But here's what it is.
Joseph Smith's changed the word

794
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:40,200
Holy Ghost to say Holy Spirit.
He does that many times in the

795
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,480
doctrine of covenants.
And and by many, I don't mean

796
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,920
100.
I don't know even know if it's

797
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:51,000
mentioned that many times, but a
good 1520 something times.

798
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,600
And The thing is, today for most
people that are like So what,

799
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,760
that there's no difference.
But the early brethren

800
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:02,400
distinguished a difference.
Joseph showed the difference and

801
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,040
his changes in the doctrine of
covenant seem to acknowledge in

802
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:10,080
my estimation, later discourses
of the early brethren say the

803
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:14,880
Holy Spirit properly refers to
the Spirit of Christ.

804
00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:21,040
It properly does not refer to
the personage of the Holy Ghost.

805
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,760
They also acknowledged we use
the two interchangeably and

806
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,400
improperly so.
But if we're going to be

807
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:33,280
accurate and careful about
things, the Holy Ghost is a

808
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,440
personage.
The Holy Spirit is, you know,

809
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,080
untabernacled intelligences
flowing through everything.

810
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,200
So there's a huge difference.
Now, if you say the sin against

811
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,640
the Holy Ghost and you change it
to say sin against the Holy

812
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,800
Spirit, there's a very different
meaning there.

813
00:50:53,720 --> 00:50:58,440
And I think that's fascinating
to explore doctrinally.

814
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,600
And, and you know, you could
agree or disagree with me, but

815
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,880
just for the sake of, of giving
an example, if I sin against the

816
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:11,800
Holy Ghost, that's a personage,
I have to apologize to that

817
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,800
personage if I make a mistake,
right?

818
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,000
And and it's never defined
really well anyways, what's the

819
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:21,480
sin against the Holy Ghost?
You can, I should say, take that

820
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,080
back.
It's never consistently defined.

821
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:26,640
Well, as to what the case said
against the Holy Ghost is, I can

822
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,560
find some really good quotes,
but I can find something to

823
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,640
argue the opposite based on
somebody else's quote.

824
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,200
And I'm talking about the early
brethren and all the way through

825
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,640
Joseph F Smith or especially
even later.

826
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,920
The doctrine never is consistent
throughout the history of the

827
00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:43,840
LDS Church.
Few years back I started to get

828
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,120
the feeling that we, as
fundamentalists and orthodox

829
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,520
Mormons, we need our own stuff.
Up to now, we've been able to

830
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,920
buy and purchase all of our
scriptures, books, art, and

831
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,560
music from other restoration
organizations, and that's been

832
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:58,400
good.
But there's no guarantee it's

833
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,800
going to remain that way.
Also, it can be a bit tricky as

834
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,240
you scour the Internet trying to
find all the books from your

835
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:08,400
favorite fundamentalist or
orthodox Mormon authors.

836
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,240
As I thought about this, I feel
like I was really given a

837
00:52:11,240 --> 00:52:14,160
solution now through the hard
work of others, because let's

838
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,400
face it, I'm the guy least
qualified in all the world to

839
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,680
build a website.
I'm happy to present to you 1830

840
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,200
mercantile.org.
Right now on the website you can

841
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,040
see that we have all the books
have ever been written by 4

842
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,040
authors, including names like
Drew, Briny and Ogdenkraut.

843
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:35,160
Also very soon there will be a
link to buy art and music all

844
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,480
produced by Mormons with a deep
love for the restored gospel.

845
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,360
There's also places for you to
get free resources where you can

846
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,000
find podcasts, videos, classes,
and other presentations.

847
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,000
Also coming very soon there will
be a place for events where you

848
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,920
can list the events from your
organization so that you can get

849
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,640
the most out of that attendance.
Now this can be as big as you

850
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,640
want it to be.
It's all up to you guys out

851
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,440
there if you want to buy and
post things on here.

852
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,800
Now, if you're someone who
produces something that you feel

853
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,560
like others can benefit from,
1830 Mercantile is a place where

854
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,640
you can make all of those
products available for purchase.

855
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:14,960
All you need to do is drop me an
e-mail at

856
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,840
mormonrenegade@gmail.com and put
1830 in in the title of that

857
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,240
e-mail with a short message and
either myself or someone else

858
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:26,640
from the 1830 Mercantile team
will reach out to you so we can

859
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:28,400
get your product up there on the
site.

860
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:34,320
Now to make sure that all the
products that we offer are

861
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,040
affordable and to ensure that
the vast majority of the profits

862
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:43,240
go to the producer, the website
percentage is only three to 4%

863
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,840
of the total cost.
And that's just so I can pay the

864
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,760
pros that have created this
website and keep the lights on

865
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,240
the website itself.
Finally, by making some of your

866
00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:55,560
purchases at 1830
mercantile.org, you'll be

867
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,880
supporting folks whose
principles and morals are close,

868
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,360
if not the same as yours.
At the same time not giving your

869
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,600
money away to people who stand
against everything you stand

870
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,600
for.
So no matter if you're looking

871
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,640
to make a purchase or you're a
seller that wants to get your

872
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,880
products listed, head on over to
1830 mercantile.org today.

873
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,480
Drop me an e-mail and we'll make
sure that we get back out to

874
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:20,080
you.
Now back to the show.

875
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:25,920
But if I if I take the early
brethren's perspective and bring

876
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,320
him in specifically preach this
and you can find it in DNC 76

877
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,920
annotated under the section
Celestial Kingdom.

878
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,240
He specifically taught our our
purpose.

879
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:40,080
The plan of salvation is to
discover truth, accept truth,

880
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,200
and then live truth.
Now, I, I never saw that on the

881
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,400
plan of Salvation chart before,
but that's a very different

882
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,040
perspective of things.
And it makes a lot of sense.

883
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:55,680
You know, it's, if I discover
baptism, I accept baptism and

884
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,240
then I keep my baptismal
covenant.

885
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,560
And then later I discover
there's an endowment.

886
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,080
I received the endowment
covenant and then I live and

887
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:09,160
keep the endowment covenant.
You can see how his approach to

888
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:13,400
looking at the plan of salvation
looks like from a modern

889
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:17,200
perspective, but from a broader
perspective of people who

890
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,920
regularly taught we must accept
all truth.

891
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,520
All truth belongs to Mormonism,
but we also need to accept it

892
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,560
and live it.
So then if you take that

893
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,280
understanding that the early
brethren consistently preached

894
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:38,040
and say the sin against the Holy
Spirit, which they would also

895
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:41,080
say it would be synonymous,
would be sinning against truth.

896
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,840
Excuse me, It's sending against
the spirit of truth.

897
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:50,360
That would be just basically
reversing course, right?

898
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,760
Going from accepting, finding,
accepting and living truth to

899
00:55:53,760 --> 00:56:01,120
denying, rejecting and ignoring
truth or accepting, adopting and

900
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:07,520
receiving and living falsehood.
So arguably, it's a very, very

901
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,880
different perspective of what it
means to to sit against the Holy

902
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:13,640
Spirit.
Person is the Holy Ghost.

903
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,720
That's not the only significant
change that you can take from

904
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:21,360
that, but it's a very important
one.

905
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,560
Gotcha.
Josh, I thought I heard you say

906
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:24,600
something.
Is there something you want to

907
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,280
add to that?
Oh, I, I had mentioned I just

908
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,080
kind of blurted.
It just says it's terrifying

909
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,440
when you think about the
implications of sinning against

910
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:35,720
the Holy Spirit.
I did want to add one thing and

911
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:39,040
it it kind of dovetails into
your question, David.

912
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,600
It's in the Doctrine and
Covenants in the restored

913
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:48,560
version, as I'm thinking in 1/21
here, additions are made of a

914
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,440
well, it's additional, the
additional or complete writings

915
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,640
of Joseph on the matter are
added into the footnotes.

916
00:56:55,640 --> 00:57:01,200
In some cases, the footnotes go
pages and those additions, they

917
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,720
do two things when you read
them, they clarify because

918
00:57:04,720 --> 00:57:08,040
you're so used to 121 in the
spiritual force of that.

919
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:12,200
You know, it says thou art not
like Job and it talks about all

920
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:17,200
the hardships, but it also shows
you when Joseph is imbued with

921
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,640
this kind of Holy Spirit so that
you can feel his writings.

922
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,200
You can feel his teachings
juxtaposed against when he's

923
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,200
just talking about the
day-to-day mundane things.

924
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:30,440
And there are so many
clarifications that give you

925
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:35,080
insight as to the problems he
was having in and I believe it

926
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,880
was liberty.
So I'm using one that is at 121,

927
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,560
Drew, I think I'm right.
It's 121 where you added those

928
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:43,880
like. 3 or 4.
Paragraphs and they were so

929
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,880
clarifying because he was he was
so depressed.

930
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,520
And then he starts talking about
how, you know, the flotsam and

931
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:53,080
all of this is that it just
clears the log jams and he's

932
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,240
going he's going down and
talking about how his his heart

933
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,240
is just clearing out.
You just get this.

934
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,120
You get a full.
Perspective of how that 121 must

935
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,000
have felt for him.
So that is added to these.

936
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,920
You're going to have those in
the in these doctrine covers.

937
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,360
So like those 4 verses that you
spoke about, there were those

938
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:16,400
verses that were originally in
and then were removed, Drew, or

939
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,880
is this I'm, I'm having a hard
time following here a little

940
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:20,840
bit.
Is that supplemental?

941
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:25,200
Is that supplemental material
that that Joseph talks about

942
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,880
afterwards?
Is that actual verbiage that

943
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:30,560
went with the doc?
With the?

944
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:32,480
With the revelation.
Right.

945
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:37,840
So what happened was DNC 1/21
was not a quote UN quote

946
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,880
revelation.
DNC 121 is taken from a long

947
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:45,720
letter written to I believe it's
probably P Pratt and it's

948
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,640
extremely long revelation or
letter.

949
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:53,800
I mean, it's pages and pages
long and whoever decided to

950
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:58,160
publish it took pieces and parts
of it and then kind of

951
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,480
amalgamated them together.
And in some places it makes

952
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,080
sense because he's, he's talking
about something and he says, oh,

953
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:10,880
by the way, make sure to tell
brother Orson that, you know,

954
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:14,520
his, his wife is doing fine and
they stop by and what it

955
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:15,920
whatever, just I'm making that
up.

956
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,560
He's it's just random stuff.
And then he goes back to

957
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:24,080
preaching and then he starts
while he's preaching and

958
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:29,040
teaching, he starts waxing
revelatory and expanding and

959
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,880
offering new doctrine.
And that's, that makes it in the

960
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:36,640
DNC.
But then that he goes on in

961
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,600
places and clarifies or gives
context for those things.

962
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:43,960
And those things were redacted
from DNC 121 when it was

963
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:46,760
published.
And I, I totally agree with

964
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:48,360
Joshua.
I was reading it was like, Oh my

965
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,240
gosh, you get rid of all this
context.

966
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:55,080
It changes how you read this
scripture enormously.

967
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,000
Like I've got a much
dramatically changed perspective

968
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,800
when I read this interim text
that was omitted.

969
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:09,400
So not only in in just as A to
be fair, not only art was that

970
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:14,800
material omitted in DNC 121 and
put in the footnote to make it

971
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,080
easier to just read.
All together.

972
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:20,920
So you're not going from the the
the text of the footnote to the

973
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,680
text of the footnote to that
becomes difficult too.

974
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:29,280
So some of that there's an
additional entire revelation

975
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,640
after a couple of the sections
that was omitted.

976
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:39,960
But in the for the restored
version, not my JSV version, but

977
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,200
we decided in the restored
version to to duplicate that

978
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:47,240
material and just put it all in
just Smith revelation, whatever

979
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:50,040
it is, 37 or something from
beginning to end.

980
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:52,160
So you can read it without going
back and forth between the

981
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,560
footnotes.
That I think is the only thing

982
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:57,840
that's really duplicative in the
entire volume.

983
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:02,440
But we felt one, it wasn't a
cost problem, which I assumed it

984
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:03,720
was.
And so that's why I did the way

985
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:05,920
I did it.
And plus that's just the normal

986
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,720
academic way of doing it.
But then I also included some of

987
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:13,080
the extra revelation that wasn't
included at the end and the

988
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,520
Joseph Smith uncanonized
revelation.

989
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:18,520
But when talking to Kevin, he
said that's not going to change

990
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,480
the price.
If we could put it all together

991
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:26,400
in one spot, make it easy to
read, that would be very helpful

992
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:29,080
for a lot of people.
So and then we thought, well,

993
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:32,680
maybe just footnotes to go see
Joseph Smith hit whatever 37.

994
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:35,880
But a lot of people aren't going
to do that either.

995
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:39,200
So we just put it both places.
Gotcha, gotcha.

996
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,520
Oh, it makes sense.
There are several and by the

997
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:47,480
way, a places where the DNC is
not one revelation, it's three.

998
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,200
And they were just slammed
together and their places.

999
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:56,680
I, I've had people kind of the,
the hate trolls, you know, get

1000
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,440
on my case and say, you know,
you can't do this to the

1001
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:01,480
revelations, you know, blah,
blah, blah.

1002
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,240
And, and, and in my forgotten,
the forgotten teachings of

1003
01:02:05,240 --> 01:02:10,320
Joseph Smith say these aren't
revelations because, you know,

1004
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:12,360
they're for personal journals,
so they don't matter.

1005
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,320
And those what those people
don't realize is the original

1006
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:21,640
text for different sections of
the Doctrine Covenants come from

1007
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:26,080
journals.
DNC 130 I believe it's verse 22

1008
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:30,840
for instance, and I can verify
that while we're talking the DNC

1009
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:37,880
130 verse 22 comes from Wayne
Clayton's journal and originally

1010
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:47,040
it said the the father had the
father has a body of flesh and

1011
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,320
bone as tangible as man's and
the son also, but the Holy Ghost

1012
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:51,880
is not a body of flesh and
bones.

1013
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:58,880
But and then continues this.
However, this verse coming from

1014
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,440
Williams Clayton's journal was
changed in 1854.

1015
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,920
So the original or sorry, the
the the modified version of it

1016
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:15,600
reads because the I'd have to
kind of go back and forth.

1017
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,680
Oh, here it is the original and
a person cannot have the

1018
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:21,920
personage of the Holy Ghost in
his heart.

1019
01:03:21,920 --> 01:03:26,880
That's the original was changed
on July 27th, 1854 by George A

1020
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:30,480
Smith and Thomas Bullock,
apparently approved by Brigham

1021
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:32,600
Young and Jedidiah Grant.
But we don't know that for

1022
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,920
positive.
But it reads the opposite and it

1023
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:38,320
was perpetuated in later
published versions.

1024
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,800
So it says.
Were it not so, the Holy Ghost

1025
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:45,080
could not dwell on us.
As opposed to saying a personage

1026
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,840
cannot have the person personage
of the a person cannot have the

1027
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:50,640
personage of the Holy Ghost in
his heart.

1028
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:54,520
So directly changes the meaning
to be the exact opposite.

1029
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:01,720
Gotcha, Josh.
I was just going to say when the

1030
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,840
the beauty of the clarity of
what he's saying is when you,

1031
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:09,160
when you see this four or five
times, you get the full flavor

1032
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:13,360
of a Joseph revelation.
It, it, it comes at you like,

1033
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,680
like the tide it comes in and,
and you, you're going to hear

1034
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,640
all of the, all of the
revelation that you're used to,

1035
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,360
but you're going to get all this
clarification coming.

1036
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,320
And So what you do is when you
read other revelations, you just

1037
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:32,440
intuitively know, you can say, I
bet if I was there in 18341836,

1038
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:36,520
Joseph would be there for an
extra 20 minutes just loading us

1039
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:39,680
down with all of the meanings
and the subtleties of that.

1040
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:44,360
And, and so I guess what I'm
saying is I do appreciate, I do

1041
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:46,960
appreciate the work that's been
done here.

1042
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:49,360
I think we've been careful to
keep it to what we call the

1043
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:53,520
canonized or the, the, the
Church accepted group.

1044
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:57,000
But these clarifications and
these expansions are so

1045
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:01,520
essential because the being at
the being at a meeting with

1046
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:05,360
Joseph Smith in 1838, we would
have heard the whole thing that

1047
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:06,840
they were writing down in
journals.

1048
01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:11,080
And you get that flavor.
Gotcha, thank you.

1049
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:15,600
I, I have suddenly add there
that I is is of significance.

1050
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:22,800
During this entire project, I
never once referred to a modern

1051
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:27,520
version of the DNC or Book of
Mormon to compare what I was

1052
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:33,400
doing in, in any way that I, I,
I might have, I might have

1053
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:38,120
looked it up in both to see if
the, if I was had the right

1054
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:41,840
verse number, you know, because
in case I made a mistake and had

1055
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,920
to check something.
But other than that, I never

1056
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:48,960
looked at the verbiage of the
modern scriptures versus what

1057
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:53,440
Joseph approved in 1844.
And I thought it was ironic

1058
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:59,440
because Michael Sundell's one of
our partners, he went through

1059
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:02,960
later and said, Drew, I love
this part because I believe it

1060
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:08,280
was DNC 121 somewhere else.
He's he's he's saying the the

1061
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,800
original is so dramatically
different than what we read

1062
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,400
today.
And I hadn't noticed because I

1063
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,120
wasn't reading the modern
version.

1064
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:18,440
I was just looking at the
original.

1065
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:24,080
But he was very, very much right
where it says let virtue garnish

1066
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:27,240
thy thoughts unceasingly.
That's not the original.

1067
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,440
Doesn't say let virtue garnished
says let your thoughts be

1068
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:33,280
garnished unceasingly or
something like that, or garnish

1069
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:35,960
your thoughts unceasingly.
Says nothing about virtue,

1070
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:41,560
which, you know, it's not like
that's a bad thing, but it's

1071
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,520
broader than just virtue, unless
you mean all morally virtuous

1072
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:51,120
thoughts, you know, and I know a
lot of people that I've spoken

1073
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,960
to over the past many years in
the, in the mainstream LDS

1074
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:57,960
church read virtue to mean
sexual virtue or something

1075
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:00,200
related to that.
And if you're reading it from

1076
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,560
that perspective, you're missing
a lot of what it was intended to

1077
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:07,000
say in the original.
So at any rate, I did not look

1078
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,680
at, did not take advisement
under did not reconsider any

1079
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:15,080
verse ever because of somethings
that that is was changed in

1080
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:19,760
later editions.
And I personally don't know how

1081
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:26,480
significant changes were after
1844 to 1981 or 2012 or whenever

1082
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:29,640
the last version they did was I,
I just didn't look.

1083
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:31,280
And I honestly, I just don't
care.

1084
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,040
I'm a purist.
I want to see the, the, the,

1085
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:39,520
the, the depth of the fountain.
And for me, that's Joseph, what

1086
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:43,160
he thought.
I, I, I admire and appreciate 10

1087
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:47,800
times what any modern revelatory
in any group would say.

1088
01:07:49,760 --> 01:07:53,800
So for for clarification
purposes and understanding the

1089
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:59,840
restored version, it is not a
revision of the modern version.

1090
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:01,840
It is a forget the modern
version.

1091
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,880
We don't look at it at all.
We're looking at the original

1092
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,120
manuscripts.
And you know, in, in some of

1093
01:08:08,120 --> 01:08:11,760
these instances too, Dave, I, I
didn't mention, but I started

1094
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:19,040
this project about 15 years ago
and, and I, I, I've just dabbled

1095
01:08:19,040 --> 01:08:22,120
in it.
So when Joshua and Michael came

1096
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:24,439
to me and said, Hey, we would
like you to look at doing this,

1097
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:25,880
I was like, great, I'm already
doing it.

1098
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:30,960
I just have never been able to,
to get around to really full

1099
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:34,560
time do it because it's too big
of a project without anybody

1100
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:38,520
financially backing it at all.
It's it's, it was just too huge.

1101
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:43,120
It took me the greater part of a
year when I'd already spent time

1102
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:47,399
organizing materials and doing
stuff to, to go back to the

1103
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:50,319
original OCR materials that I
had.

1104
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:53,200
Compare them with everything on
the Joseph Smith Papers project.

1105
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:56,399
Look at Royal Skousen's work on
the Book of Mormon and other

1106
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:59,439
scholarly works.
See if there's anything really

1107
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:02,240
need to look at carefully, and
so on and so forth.

1108
01:09:02,359 --> 01:09:06,479
So let.
Me ask this question about the

1109
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,200
Doctrine and Covenants and then
I want to kind of move on to the

1110
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,319
to the unpublished revelations
that will be available now.

1111
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:16,040
Yeah.
I'm, I'm kind of weird when I go

1112
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:18,319
on a deep dive reading the
scriptures, right?

1113
01:09:18,319 --> 01:09:23,120
If I'm reading the, the New
Testament, I'll look at words

1114
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:26,399
that I get focused on for
whatever reason and I'll take it

1115
01:09:26,399 --> 01:09:29,279
back to the Greek and you know,
if need be, I'll take it back to

1116
01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:30,840
the Hebrew and the Old
Testament.

1117
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:34,560
Definitely going back to Hebrew,
the Doctrine and Covenants is

1118
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:39,840
unique because we don't have the
filter of, of a complete

1119
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:43,720
separate language.
However, English, unlike Latin

1120
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:46,399
or something like that, isn't a
dead language, right?

1121
01:09:46,399 --> 01:09:51,600
It's continuing to change.
And so my, my question is, is do

1122
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:54,320
you, did you ever have to go
back and go, OK, what does this

1123
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:56,240
word mean?
And then like for me, I usually

1124
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:59,040
crack the 1828.
Right.

1125
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,800
Because those words do have a
few of those words do have

1126
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:05,560
different meanings than what
they do today.

1127
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:11,120
Yes, yeah, I did in.
In fact, the, the, the first

1128
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:16,400
one, I'm, I'm trying to remember
the context, but I, I think it

1129
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:20,880
says the Bessem of destruction.
And I, I looked and said, is

1130
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:25,840
that a bad spelling?
But it turns out Bessem is a

1131
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:30,000
broomstick.
And it's specifically in 1828

1132
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:32,800
had a connotation of being a
witch's broom.

1133
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:37,560
And so when, when I read that
into the passage, and I'm sorry,

1134
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:38,960
I can't remember what it is
right now.

1135
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:41,640
I think it's one of the
unpublished revelations, to be

1136
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:46,280
honest.
It it made perfect sense in that

1137
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:48,720
context for something like that
to be referred to.

1138
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:53,000
I wouldn't have got that without
1828 dictionary.

1139
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:58,360
I think they're about four or
five places in the DNC and and

1140
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,760
then published revelations.
Maybe also the Book of Mormon.

1141
01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:04,640
Maybe there's a a half dozen if
you include that.

1142
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:07,760
I, I honestly don't recall, but
it's not a significant amount.

1143
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:13,280
But I did refer to the 1828
dictionary just for the purpose

1144
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:17,840
of you can, you can have some
people not know that word means

1145
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,160
something different back then
than it does now.

1146
01:11:20,840 --> 01:11:25,840
And it's worth being aware of.
And we debated a little bit

1147
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:27,080
about should that footnote be
there?

1148
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:30,400
It's not a change Joseph made.
He didn't make any commentary on

1149
01:11:30,400 --> 01:11:33,800
it.
But last word I got, we'd say to

1150
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:37,200
keep those because, you know, if
you didn't know, I was talking

1151
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:40,680
about a witch's broom and you
thought Bassam was a was a

1152
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:44,240
misprint and it was supposed to
say bosom of destruction.

1153
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:46,480
You're going to have a very
different understanding of that

1154
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:50,400
verse.
There were a few instances like

1155
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:56,880
that and also instances where
change in, you know, the the

1156
01:11:56,880 --> 01:12:00,680
modernization of the
standardization of, of, of

1157
01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:04,760
spelling makes a big difference.
Where you see the difference?

1158
01:12:04,760 --> 01:12:11,920
Straight, Strait, change to
straight, STRAIGHT and sometimes

1159
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:15,400
vice versa or just ignored.
Those are different words, they

1160
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:19,480
mean different things and you
know you see changes made to

1161
01:12:19,480 --> 01:12:24,320
those words in different
versions, but honestly they

1162
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,920
probably didn't know the
difference in the first place.

1163
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:35,600
And you know, they probably
intended STRAIGHT as the modern

1164
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:37,640
one says, but the other one
could work.

1165
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:41,200
It would just be redundant.
So I believe I dropped one

1166
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:44,360
footnote about that, that this
is shows up six times in the

1167
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:47,800
Book of Mormon.
But just as the way I, I've

1168
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:51,440
heard that argument so many
times in the church that STRIT

1169
01:12:51,440 --> 01:12:56,400
is probably the proper way
because means both straight and

1170
01:12:56,440 --> 01:13:00,680
tight narrow.
So I I put it there just because

1171
01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:03,520
there's a lot of argument about
that in the church, or at least

1172
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:06,080
there was when I was there,
people arguing about that

1173
01:13:06,360 --> 01:13:10,280
scripture.
So anyway, that's just directed

1174
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:12,840
to your question.
Yeah, we we've got roughly half

1175
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,680
a dozen footnotes that address
those those types of things.

1176
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:18,800
Got you, Josh.
I saw your hand go up.

1177
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:23,160
Yeah, there was A and I'm I'm
looking through the DNC right

1178
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:25,720
now, but there was that Drew,
maybe you can remember there was

1179
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:28,280
that one word that was just so
strange.

1180
01:13:28,320 --> 01:13:33,240
It didn't even sound English.
And it was written and, and, and

1181
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:36,120
I, I have a pretty strong
vocabulary.

1182
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:39,520
I mean, I, I, I speak a couple
languages and I know my English.

1183
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:44,920
And you went back into the 1828
and defined that word, which I

1184
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:47,560
don't think anybody would even
know what that is.

1185
01:13:47,560 --> 01:13:49,720
Do you remember that?
I think it started with an S.

1186
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:52,240
What was that word?
It was that one.

1187
01:13:52,440 --> 01:13:53,400
What?
What was it?

1188
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:56,480
You know, I, I, I know exactly
which one you're talking about,

1189
01:13:56,480 --> 01:13:59,280
but I can't remember the word
because I looked at it and I

1190
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:04,440
said, this doesn't sound right.
I, I, I don't, I don't think I'm

1191
01:14:04,440 --> 01:14:07,080
understanding this properly.
I looked into it.

1192
01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:10,480
I ended up taking a deep dive
beyond grammar and into Old

1193
01:14:10,480 --> 01:14:13,240
English.
And it it might have had some

1194
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:15,520
maritime thing or they had to go
in there or something.

1195
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:19,200
Joseph had to have heard it from
like an uncle that was in the

1196
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:21,200
was in like a a Navy or
something.

1197
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:23,520
Like it was wild, David, it was
wild.

1198
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:26,200
When you read it, you're like,
wow, is this German?

1199
01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:31,000
Yeah, yeah.
That I, I, I, I wish either of

1200
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:33,400
us could remember the verse
because there was definitely

1201
01:14:33,400 --> 01:14:35,840
something really, really fun
that happened there.

1202
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:39,200
And I was excited to, after I
researched it to write the

1203
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:43,320
footnote because I thought, I
bet nobody captures this.

1204
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:45,680
That's awesome.
It's probably not the same in

1205
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:48,200
the modern version or, or it
would be more familiar to us,

1206
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:49,920
but so it's probably changed
again.

1207
01:14:51,440 --> 01:14:53,400
I also found.
Sorry.

1208
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,360
No, you're good.
I wish I could give the the

1209
01:14:56,360 --> 01:15:01,360
precise example, but I also
found a place where one of the

1210
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:07,440
words that was used was an
uncommon word and oh, I think

1211
01:15:07,440 --> 01:15:08,880
this one made it on the
scriptures.

1212
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:16,080
Proprietor, yes, but it was
spelled proprietor or something.

1213
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:23,200
And so the modern version makes
it sound like the preparator,

1214
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:27,400
somebody who prepared it, is
talking about hell, but the word

1215
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:30,920
is spelled improperly.
It's supposed to say proprietor,

1216
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:35,960
which is the creator or the the
person who built it of hell.

1217
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,880
And speaking, the adversary is
the person who built it, not who

1218
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:44,560
prepared it, but who built it.
At any rate, that was another

1219
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:50,400
really weird spelling that I I
footnoted down and said this is

1220
01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:52,160
what it is.
I didn't pay any attention to

1221
01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:54,800
what the modern version said.
That was brought to my attention

1222
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:59,440
later by Michael, but didn't
note that there was something in

1223
01:15:59,440 --> 01:16:01,320
the 1840.
It changed a couple times.

1224
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:04,760
Joseph wrote Father, then
changed it back, and I don't

1225
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:08,160
remember which what he ended up
with, but they all kind of mean

1226
01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:11,640
a similar thing.
But the modern version does not

1227
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:15,360
mean a similar thing at all.
Preparator doesn't just mean

1228
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:18,320
somebody who prepared.
It means something else when you

1229
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:20,080
look it up.
I don't remember what it was,

1230
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,320
but it's nothing to do with the
context.

1231
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:25,960
It's it's not a very good
translation, right?

1232
01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:29,560
Moving on to to those
unpublished revelations.

1233
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:35,800
Did those pose?
Any challenge figuring out what

1234
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:37,560
was revelation and what's what's
not?

1235
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:41,680
And, and the reason I ask it
like that is because Mormonism

1236
01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:45,280
has a unique view on scripture,
right?

1237
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:49,480
The the quad is the Canon of
scripture, right?

1238
01:16:49,480 --> 01:16:53,160
That's what's been accepted into
the Canon, but per the Doctrine

1239
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:57,240
and Covenants scripture is
anything that the servants of

1240
01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:01,360
the Lord are, say that when
moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

1241
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:05,600
So as you started going towards
those unpublished revelations,

1242
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:10,600
how were you able to decipher
between what was somebody's

1243
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:15,880
recollection of something Joseph
said that sounded inspired

1244
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:19,280
versus what was what was real
revelation?

1245
01:17:19,280 --> 01:17:22,000
Does that make sense, Drew?
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense and

1246
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:24,440
I'm glad you asked that.
I want to give you kind of a

1247
01:17:24,440 --> 01:17:28,840
preface to, first of all, the
original Doctrine and Covenants.

1248
01:17:28,840 --> 01:17:31,720
I believe it mentions in Section
78.

1249
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:38,640
I could be wrong but I've got a
whole appendix on the subject

1250
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:44,040
talks about the correction and
the continual updating of

1251
01:17:44,040 --> 01:17:47,600
scriptures.
There was a specific society

1252
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,160
created to a printing society
created to make sure the

1253
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:53,160
scriptures were updated from
time to time.

1254
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:58,720
That that understanding of it
was removed in later editions of

1255
01:17:58,720 --> 01:18:03,560
scripture when it fell apart and
was just modified to read Holy

1256
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:07,720
Firm or Holy Order.
Talking about a United order so

1257
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:10,520
completely loses its its
original intent.

1258
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:14,360
So first of all, there's there
was a commandment to update the

1259
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:18,040
scriptures, update the
revelations specifically.

1260
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:23,400
So that was a a significant
impetus for me back 1015 years

1261
01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:30,920
ago that we needed an updated
DNC to include revelations that

1262
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:36,560
were not originally included.
Now the next question is, well,

1263
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:40,360
isn't that the Prophet's job to
determine what's what should be

1264
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:42,320
included or not?
Joseph skipped revelation

1265
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:44,000
several times.
Maybe they should never not be

1266
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:47,600
included, blah, blah, blah.
But the answer was the early

1267
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:51,640
brethren talked about these
things and, and you know,

1268
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:53,640
sometimes they didn't print
something because it was

1269
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:57,040
specific to an individual, but
sometimes they put stuff in the

1270
01:18:57,040 --> 01:18:59,240
Doctrine of Covenants that was
very much specific to an

1271
01:18:59,240 --> 01:19:01,720
individual.
We have to extrapolate how to

1272
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:06,680
apply that to us and vice versa.
So early on, looking at those

1273
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:11,680
things, I, I, I decided to, to
use a principle that I based

1274
01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:16,440
this entire pro the, the, the
entire project on and that, that

1275
01:19:16,440 --> 01:19:19,840
we all talked about and agreed
as part of the restored version.

1276
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:25,560
And that is this.
We want a version of scripture

1277
01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:29,000
that every restorationist can
trust.

1278
01:19:30,480 --> 01:19:33,600
So I don't care if you're RLDS,
if you're Kinks tonight, if

1279
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:38,240
you're the the Branch, if you're
Centennial Park, if you're AUB,

1280
01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:41,480
if you're mainstream Mormon, or
if you're Strangite or rigged

1281
01:19:41,480 --> 01:19:42,760
tonight.
I I don't care.

1282
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:47,720
This version, we document
everything that happens so that

1283
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:51,400
you can trust it.
This is what Joseph approved or

1284
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:53,120
would have approved when he
died.

1285
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:57,160
That's assuming he would approve
his own revelations.

1286
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:01,160
But the printing of them is the
only real question.

1287
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:07,360
And at that point I could, I
could do like most scholars do

1288
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:10,040
and say, well, my personal
belief is this scripture, this,

1289
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:14,520
this revelation was probably
influenced by so and so and and

1290
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:16,200
it wasn't written down by
Joseph.

1291
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:17,560
We don't have a signature at the
bottom.

1292
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:19,360
So I think it's kind of sketchy.
I don't.

1293
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:22,320
I'm not going to include it in
my compilation of scriptures

1294
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:24,520
that Joseph Oregon revelations
Joseph received.

1295
01:20:25,960 --> 01:20:31,440
I I do not play arbiter at all.
This is how we decided if it was

1296
01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:34,880
written down as Joseph's
revelation, it's included in the

1297
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:37,640
original 65 revelations, Joseph
Smith and they're numbered

1298
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:42,960
Joseph Smith #1 Joseph Smith #2
Jose Smith #3 I did we decided

1299
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:46,240
to do that because Dr. Cummins
139 one 4150.

1300
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:51,080
That's going to just kind of rub
some groups wrong and make it

1301
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:54,080
confusing for other people and
so on so forth.

1302
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:57,160
And wait a second, who decided
what went in there and what

1303
01:20:57,160 --> 01:20:58,920
order?
So we just didn't

1304
01:20:58,920 --> 01:21:01,440
chronologically.
Joseph Smith one, Joseph Smith

1305
01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:04,800
2, Joseph Smith 3.
Now there's a couple of them

1306
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,320
that some people have argued
Joseph Smith received this

1307
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:09,680
revelation.
Some said no, Oliver Counter

1308
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:11,600
did.
Some say, well, Oliver Counter

1309
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:14,040
received some of it, but it was
at the direction of Joseph and

1310
01:21:14,040 --> 01:21:15,640
Joseph used some of that in
other sections.

1311
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:18,240
D&C.
So Joseph approved it as his own

1312
01:21:18,240 --> 01:21:21,760
revelation and presented it as
such a pieces of parts, blah,

1313
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:24,200
blah, blah.
So I just footnote the dispute,

1314
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,120
put it in there for Joseph.
That's primarily just the first

1315
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:30,680
one and and not so much the
others.

1316
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:35,280
So if it was written down, we
have a copy of it in somebody's

1317
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:38,360
handwriting purporting to be a
revelation from Joseph Smith.

1318
01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:42,800
You will find it.
So that's that's the first

1319
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:46,240
threshold issue.
The recent book, Jeez, I should

1320
01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:48,960
remember.
Dang it, I just tore down my

1321
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:52,040
library recently for some
remodeling, so I don't have it

1322
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:54,280
in front of me.
But there's a recent volume done

1323
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:58,600
by a couple brethren that
included, I think 42 unpublished

1324
01:21:58,600 --> 01:21:59,920
revelations.
Joseph Smith.

1325
01:22:00,680 --> 01:22:05,200
They, they did a really good job
of what they did, but in my

1326
01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:08,520
estimation, they played arbiter
and said, you know, this will,

1327
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:10,640
this will hurt your testimony.
You can't read this.

1328
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:13,680
And we don't believe it because
later prophets proved it was

1329
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,760
wrong or something.
And that may be oversimplifying

1330
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:19,280
their reasoning, but that's what
it looked like to me.

1331
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:25,880
So versus there 42, we have 65.
Also the second thing I put in a

1332
01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:30,000
separate section when somebody
said I was there when Joseph

1333
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:33,360
received thus and so revelation,
and this is what it said.

1334
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:37,160
That's in a separate section.
And we label those hearsay

1335
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:41,400
revelations because we don't
have the original writing, but

1336
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:44,880
we do have somebody saying
Joseph received this revelation.

1337
01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:49,520
I was there and it it doesn't
matter where I fall on the

1338
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:52,320
spectrum.
If I don't, I look at it and

1339
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,000
say, you know, I think that
brother was wrong.

1340
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:56,240
I don't think that's what Joseph
said.

1341
01:22:56,240 --> 01:22:58,560
I think he misunderstood him.
I don't care.

1342
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:01,400
I included it word for word with
whatever source journal,

1343
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:03,600
whatever we have, that's what's
there.

1344
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:07,600
And often times we actually have
four to five different people

1345
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:12,840
recording the exact same thing.
So, and we talked about should

1346
01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:15,720
we include that or not include
those because they're, we don't

1347
01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:19,200
have the original revelation.
We just have a journal.

1348
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,680
But DNC 1/30/22 comes from a
journal.

1349
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:28,760
So there is that.
So what we ultimately decided

1350
01:23:29,440 --> 01:23:32,080
was to include all of those and
just put them in a separate

1351
01:23:32,080 --> 01:23:35,440
section because some people are
going to say where's the

1352
01:23:35,440 --> 01:23:38,200
revelation about Joseph talking
about blacks and the priesthood?

1353
01:23:39,160 --> 01:23:40,760
Well, that's actually a journal
entry.

1354
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:42,920
It's actually coming from
Zebedee Coltran.

1355
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:46,800
He's saying he was arguing with
the Elder Green over whether or

1356
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:48,120
not black should have the
priesthood.

1357
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,600
And Elder Green said, well, I'm
going to take this to Joseph and

1358
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:53,600
tell him that you think black
should have the priest because

1359
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:57,040
you're wrong.
And Zebedee Coltrane records

1360
01:23:57,040 --> 01:24:00,720
that they took it to Joseph.
Joseph prayed and he said Elder

1361
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:03,720
Coltrane's right, the blacks
have no right to the priesthood.

1362
01:24:04,480 --> 01:24:06,440
Now that's a super controversial
topic.

1363
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:08,800
I'm not coming down one way or
the other.

1364
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:14,040
It's what Coltrane said, and so
I included as a hearsay

1365
01:24:14,040 --> 01:24:17,200
revelation.
We don't have Joseph's words or

1366
01:24:17,560 --> 01:24:21,960
at best we have a hearsay
recounting of his words and we

1367
01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:24,320
don't have the original writing.
There probably never was

1368
01:24:24,320 --> 01:24:27,360
original writing and that's all
we've got on it.

1369
01:24:27,480 --> 01:24:32,080
So if that goes in its own
section and I we do not footnote

1370
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:36,040
thousands of people who agreed
later or whatever.

1371
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:39,800
The only thing that I include
with things like that is I was

1372
01:24:39,800 --> 01:24:43,640
there when Joseph received this
or Joseph said thus and so was a

1373
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:46,760
revelation.
He told me he received this as a

1374
01:24:46,760 --> 01:24:50,560
revelation, so on, so forth.
So King Fall at this course

1375
01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:52,840
isn't there.
I believe we could receive that

1376
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:56,680
as a piece of scripture, but
it's not there because he

1377
01:24:56,680 --> 01:24:59,520
doesn't say this is a revelation
of God to me.

1378
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:04,520
Nobody claimed that was Joseph
receiving revelation speaking it

1379
01:25:04,520 --> 01:25:08,000
to the Saints, although many
people believe it is revelatory

1380
01:25:09,760 --> 01:25:11,200
that.
But anyway, that's that's how we

1381
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:14,360
made those distinctions that
keeps us from including a bunch

1382
01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:19,040
of prophecies of Joseph, which
is a volume by itself and

1383
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:24,400
similar types of readings.
All of those, however, if known

1384
01:25:24,480 --> 01:25:27,320
if I discovered them, are in the
Forgot Teachings of Joseph

1385
01:25:27,320 --> 01:25:30,080
Smith's volumes I published a
couple years ago.

1386
01:25:30,360 --> 01:25:33,840
There's 1000 pages of those got.
You.

1387
01:25:34,440 --> 01:25:35,720
I saw your hand go up there,
Josh.

1388
01:25:37,800 --> 01:25:41,560
I was just going to add that
Drew and the committee

1389
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:45,000
themselves, but Drew especially,
we were very, very young with,

1390
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:47,640
with the what we call the
hearsay, That's the legal term.

1391
01:25:47,920 --> 01:25:51,120
Both Drew and I are lawyers, so
I don't like using that term in

1392
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:55,400
general because it makes it
sound illegal or unevidentiary.

1393
01:25:55,400 --> 01:25:59,000
But it's just, it's a third
party that heard somebody say

1394
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:00,520
something.
There's no writing there.

1395
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:03,720
So it's our way of saying that
we can't trace it back to the

1396
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:06,440
horse's mouth.
I wish there was an easier word

1397
01:26:06,440 --> 01:26:11,080
to describe it, but we were very
conscientious not to, not to put

1398
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:14,160
in what are truly evocative or
provocative.

1399
01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:18,600
The ones like, like, let me just
throw this out for you guys.

1400
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:22,440
For me, I'm one that does follow
the the White Horse prophecy,

1401
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:25,560
but the White Horse prophecy is
not going to be in here.

1402
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:29,880
And there are several others
that people they enjoy or they

1403
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:33,080
read or that they find
constitutionally, you know,

1404
01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:39,000
contiguous to their thoughts.
What we did is we tried to, we

1405
01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:42,960
replaced all of the revelations
in there that we felt had a

1406
01:26:42,960 --> 01:26:46,880
consistent and a unifying
effect, notwithstanding a lot of

1407
01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:49,880
our intellectual debates.
So I think it was, I think it

1408
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:52,200
was, I think you'll find it was
really well done.

1409
01:26:53,440 --> 01:26:57,360
Yeah, I, I, I could, I could
envision a study version in the

1410
01:26:57,360 --> 01:27:02,920
future including some of those
other, other writings.

1411
01:27:04,040 --> 01:27:08,480
But the, the, the bar that we
used was, did somebody call it a

1412
01:27:08,480 --> 01:27:11,600
revelation and say Joseph
received it?

1413
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:14,280
And if so that it was included?
There were only 22 of those

1414
01:27:14,320 --> 01:27:19,240
outside of the written 65 above
and beyond the original DNC.

1415
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:23,280
We could have called them second
hand accounts of revelations,

1416
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:26,720
but then nobody would remember
what to call it.

1417
01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:29,600
Gotcha.
So gotcha.

1418
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:32,640
Well, let me ask you this.
What about things that went

1419
01:27:32,640 --> 01:27:35,520
beyond Joseph Smith?
Like I'm thinking the 1886

1420
01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:37,880
revelation, the Woodruff
revelation.

1421
01:27:38,200 --> 01:27:39,920
Did those make their way into
there?

1422
01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:43,040
35 to 40 of them we have.
And yes, they're, they're going

1423
01:27:43,040 --> 01:27:47,120
to be there.
And some of those are a little

1424
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:48,640
tricky.
I'm thinking especially one of

1425
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:52,000
Brigham Young where he says, I,
I rarely speak of visions and

1426
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:55,800
revelations and so forth and
such, but I've never looked upon

1427
01:27:55,800 --> 01:27:58,000
this piece of ground but that I
don't see the Salt Lake Temple.

1428
01:27:58,520 --> 01:28:04,080
And he refers to it as a
revelation And, and so in in

1429
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:08,000
keeping with Joseph Smith's
hearsay version, except for

1430
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:10,960
that's directly from him.
So it's not a hearsay

1431
01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:13,920
revelation, but I treated it
much the same.

1432
01:28:14,480 --> 01:28:19,680
And I, I, I hope it, it, this is
a frustration.

1433
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:23,520
Anytime you publish something, I
hope somebody comes to me a year

1434
01:28:23,520 --> 01:28:26,040
from now and says, Drew, why
didn't you include Wolfer

1435
01:28:26,040 --> 01:28:32,280
Woodruff's 1854 revelation that
nobody has seen before?

1436
01:28:33,080 --> 01:28:36,200
I'd love to see that.
Then we can add it to, you know,

1437
01:28:36,440 --> 01:28:39,160
'cause I'm sure I'll miss
something.

1438
01:28:39,440 --> 01:28:42,800
There's so much obscure stuff,
and every once in a while things

1439
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:47,120
pop up.
For instance, Joseph Smith, you

1440
01:28:47,120 --> 01:28:52,600
know, gives a revelation to
Whitney about these are the

1441
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:55,800
words that you shall give to
your daughter to do the ceiling

1442
01:28:55,800 --> 01:29:01,160
ordinance with me.
And, and you know, that's there.

1443
01:29:01,160 --> 01:29:03,560
There are other places where
it's referred to as a

1444
01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:06,200
revelation.
So that's there.

1445
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:09,840
And you can look at it, compare
it to the original ordinance and

1446
01:29:10,080 --> 01:29:12,720
see if that's a template or a
word for word thing or what is

1447
01:29:12,720 --> 01:29:13,800
that supposed to be?
Whatever.

1448
01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:17,680
But things like that, you know,
something else could pop out

1449
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:20,120
next year the, the day after we
publish.

1450
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:25,040
And if we do future editions, we
will add those things.

1451
01:29:26,160 --> 01:29:28,440
But until then, it's just kind
of like the best we can do right

1452
01:29:28,440 --> 01:29:30,720
now.
If, if the church was

1453
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:35,000
transparent and said here, all
the all the revelations we have,

1454
01:29:35,960 --> 01:29:38,040
they claim they've got a lot
more that have never been

1455
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:39,640
published and haven't seen the
light of day.

1456
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:45,720
And if they ever decide to pull
those out of the archive vaults

1457
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:48,760
and publish them and we do
another version, that those will

1458
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:52,880
be included again.
Our purpose is not to be the

1459
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:56,960
arbiter of is that a false
revelation or a true revelation,

1460
01:29:56,960 --> 01:30:01,520
or should it have been published
or not because it was intended

1461
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:03,440
for a specific group of people
or what not?

1462
01:30:04,640 --> 01:30:08,040
I, I don't think that's as
relevant in our day and age for

1463
01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,400
purists like you and I.
I want to see whatever

1464
01:30:11,400 --> 01:30:13,680
revelation he received and let
me discern on my own.

1465
01:30:14,360 --> 01:30:17,160
If that was for an individual
and doesn't pertain to me,

1466
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:20,440
that's something we can decide.
But where they've been hidden

1467
01:30:20,440 --> 01:30:25,800
for many, many decades and not
allowed to see the light of day

1468
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:28,160
except they're very rare
circumstances.

1469
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:33,160
I, I think we want, most of us
want to see those things and

1470
01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:37,040
know for ourselves and not have
somebody else be the arbiter of

1471
01:30:37,040 --> 01:30:39,600
that.
And, and, and when I publish

1472
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:41,760
those things, I, I never want to
be that person.

1473
01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:44,360
I don't believe that's true.
So I'm not going to publish it.

1474
01:30:44,800 --> 01:30:47,000
That's no thanks.
Not not me.

1475
01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:50,680
Right, right.
No, there.

1476
01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:56,400
Look, as a surveyor, one of the
guys who who I worked with, who

1477
01:30:56,400 --> 01:31:01,520
trained me, he used to say
something really interesting and

1478
01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:04,960
he said, no one can ever call
you a liar for showing what you

1479
01:31:04,960 --> 01:31:09,040
found, right.
And so it's kind of like a a you

1480
01:31:09,040 --> 01:31:12,040
report, you know, we report, you
decide sort of a thing.

1481
01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:14,120
And, and I like that approach to
it a lot.

1482
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:17,040
Let's shift gears here a little
bit.

1483
01:31:17,040 --> 01:31:19,000
Is there anything else on the
Doctrine and Covenants you

1484
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:23,040
wanted to mention, either you or
Drew or Josh?

1485
01:31:27,080 --> 01:31:29,720
I had one thing and I, I may
have discussed this with you

1486
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:35,760
previously, but but it's, it's
something that hit me very

1487
01:31:35,760 --> 01:31:38,520
profoundly.
And, and if I did, I apologize

1488
01:31:38,520 --> 01:31:40,800
for being repetitive.
And if I didn't, then great.

1489
01:31:43,960 --> 01:31:46,400
You know, they're, they're, I, I
alluded to this earlier.

1490
01:31:46,400 --> 01:31:51,360
There are a lot of rumors, as it
were, that Joseph Smith

1491
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:53,480
translated the Book of Mormon
word for word.

1492
01:31:54,120 --> 01:32:00,120
And, you know, academics have
gone to ridiculous links not to

1493
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:04,040
disprove that, but just to see
what happened to those original

1494
01:32:04,040 --> 01:32:07,200
texts.
And when you do that work, you

1495
01:32:07,840 --> 01:32:11,280
pretty much cannot help but
conclude that it was not

1496
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:15,240
received word for word.
And if it was received word for

1497
01:32:15,240 --> 01:32:20,200
word, Joseph didn't respect it
as a word for word revelation

1498
01:32:21,240 --> 01:32:25,520
because he changed it.
And the same thing is true, the

1499
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:28,640
Doctrine of Covenants.
He's writing things, you know,

1500
01:32:28,640 --> 01:32:33,560
he's got a scribe writing things
down and he changes it anyways.

1501
01:32:34,600 --> 01:32:37,800
But that message he gave to, I
believe it was probably P

1502
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:42,920
prouder.
William W Phelps, When you're

1503
01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:45,760
editing the scriptures, make
sure not to change the sense.

1504
01:32:46,960 --> 01:32:50,080
Arguably they didn't follow that
objective.

1505
01:32:50,680 --> 01:32:54,240
I could, as a philosopher, argue
that changed the meeting, what

1506
01:32:54,240 --> 01:32:57,480
they wrote there, and therefore
they disobeyed Joseph's

1507
01:32:57,480 --> 01:33:00,360
adjunction and therefore the
original should stand that the

1508
01:33:00,360 --> 01:33:04,400
change should not.
I don't think that's true,

1509
01:33:04,440 --> 01:33:06,560
though.
I think what they did is they

1510
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:10,520
changed it to clarify what had
been a problem.

1511
01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:15,240
For instance, there were
challenges about the the law of

1512
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:19,080
consecration.
They said, wait, does DNC 142

1513
01:33:19,080 --> 01:33:21,560
mean this or this?
Surely it doesn't mean this.

1514
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:23,640
That's too hard to live.
We don't want to say that.

1515
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:28,760
And that type of questioning.
We could go back in history and

1516
01:33:28,760 --> 01:33:34,040
look and see he was being
bombarded with questions.

1517
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:36,080
What does this mean?
Should we do this or this?

1518
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:39,600
Does it mean this or this like
tithing, you know, have that

1519
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:42,880
letter to Edward Partridge
clarifying what it meant.

1520
01:33:43,040 --> 01:33:44,880
And that's not what most people
interpret.

1521
01:33:45,880 --> 01:33:51,320
DNC 19 verse 7 and in previous
and following verses show the

1522
01:33:51,320 --> 01:33:54,280
same clarification of the
misunderstanding of the word

1523
01:33:54,280 --> 01:34:01,240
eternal punishment.
So we see places where Joseph is

1524
01:34:01,240 --> 01:34:06,720
trying to clarify the meaning in
a couple of his discourses, one

1525
01:34:06,720 --> 01:34:09,160
in particular, and I should
memorize again on the top of my

1526
01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:10,680
head, 'cause I think about it
frequently.

1527
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:16,080
He says I could have rendered A
plainer translation of this, but

1528
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:17,600
it will suffice for today's
purposes.

1529
01:34:17,920 --> 01:34:20,400
I believe that might have been
the Elias Elijah discourse on

1530
01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:25,520
March 10th.
I could become conflating two

1531
01:34:25,520 --> 01:34:27,720
different ones, but I believe
that's the date for that one.

1532
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:34,160
But in other words, his point is
there are different applications

1533
01:34:34,160 --> 01:34:36,280
of the same scripture in
different circumstances.

1534
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:41,680
And I can give a translation for
both circumstances that's going

1535
01:34:41,680 --> 01:34:43,240
to be different one from
another.

1536
01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:49,600
And that's OK.
And so as I, as I've gone over

1537
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:54,600
every single comment and, and
that word and sometimes two or

1538
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:58,280
three or four times because you,
you get tired, you've been at it

1539
01:34:58,280 --> 01:35:00,440
for six or eight hours.
You're like, oh, OK, again,

1540
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:02,600
reread that paragraph all over
again.

1541
01:35:03,040 --> 01:35:06,320
And, and you know, you're
looking for one thing and then

1542
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:08,520
you have to fix another.
I'm correcting all the capital

1543
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:10,400
letters to small case or
something.

1544
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:12,840
And then I'm going back and then
I'm doing punctuation

1545
01:35:12,840 --> 01:35:14,120
separately.
And then I'm going back and

1546
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:16,600
putting footnotes, then I'm
looking at the changes.

1547
01:35:17,000 --> 01:35:20,120
This type of thing.
You, there's always going to be

1548
01:35:20,120 --> 01:35:24,080
a mistake.
But having gone through as

1549
01:35:24,080 --> 01:35:27,560
diligently as I could, which by
the way, is why Royal Skousen's

1550
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:29,720
work took him 30 years of
research before he published

1551
01:35:29,720 --> 01:35:34,040
that paper, you got to admire
somebody like that.

1552
01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:36,880
At the same time, we just like,
dude, we want to see that. 20

1553
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:39,760
years ago it would have been OK
if I had five mistakes, man.

1554
01:35:41,800 --> 01:35:48,360
Anyway, my point is, I, looking
at this, see Joseph as a

1555
01:35:48,360 --> 01:35:51,520
revelator differently than when
I started the project.

1556
01:35:53,680 --> 01:35:59,240
The reason is I wondered, for
instance, did Joseph translate

1557
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:01,280
it word for word?
Because there are mistakes in

1558
01:36:01,280 --> 01:36:04,040
there.
And is is that the Lord's bad

1559
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:05,320
grammar?
And why would he speak in

1560
01:36:05,320 --> 01:36:09,480
grammar not this just was bad by
modern standards, but that

1561
01:36:09,680 --> 01:36:13,080
doesn't make any sense.
I can't even understand the

1562
01:36:13,080 --> 01:36:18,960
syntax in a few places.
It's just weird, you know?

1563
01:36:19,440 --> 01:36:22,000
Why would why would the Lord
speak so vaguely?

1564
01:36:22,000 --> 01:36:25,960
To confuse us on purpose?
Or at least, no, we're going to

1565
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:28,520
be confused.
And there's no way without our

1566
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:30,880
own revelation to know how to
interpret that puppy.

1567
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:37,040
And so when I started seeing
more and more is a Joseph Smith,

1568
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:41,440
who he's listening to the
Spirit, teaching concepts and

1569
01:36:41,440 --> 01:36:44,000
ideas, expresses it in his own
language.

1570
01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:47,200
And then later people say, what
did that mean?

1571
01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:51,280
And he said, oh, my
understanding wasn't what you

1572
01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:54,000
just said.
It was this other thing I see.

1573
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:56,960
And, you know, I, I think
everybody who's given a

1574
01:36:56,960 --> 01:37:01,160
priesthood blessing, who's been
inspired, has given a priest a

1575
01:37:01,160 --> 01:37:04,160
blessing where somewhere you,
you tell somebody something and

1576
01:37:04,160 --> 01:37:08,080
then they ask you a question.
You're like, oh, no, that I, I

1577
01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:09,720
had a really clear impression
about that.

1578
01:37:09,800 --> 01:37:13,200
This is what I understood.
But they understood your words

1579
01:37:13,200 --> 01:37:17,000
differently.
And now I see Joseph as a

1580
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:20,560
revelator where he's expressing
the ideas, he's expressing

1581
01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:24,320
concepts in his own words.
And they're, they're showing up

1582
01:37:24,320 --> 01:37:26,720
in the DNC.
It gets published in 1835, for

1583
01:37:26,720 --> 01:37:29,520
instance, which was technically
a book of commandments, not DNC,

1584
01:37:29,520 --> 01:37:32,840
but I don't know that matters to
anybody except for scholar.

1585
01:37:32,840 --> 01:37:37,840
But just for, for to be clear.
And it gets published in 1835

1586
01:37:38,120 --> 01:37:39,840
And people start asking him
questions.

1587
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:43,880
Joseph, this is kind of unclear.
Is this being this or this?

1588
01:37:44,280 --> 01:37:46,920
And pretty soon there are 1520
people all asking the same

1589
01:37:46,920 --> 01:37:49,880
questions.
And he stops and says, man, next

1590
01:37:49,880 --> 01:37:51,520
time that gets edited, I'm
fixing that.

1591
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:54,120
I don't want to ask a question
anymore.

1592
01:37:54,640 --> 01:37:58,480
And so he does.
And that to a lot of people I

1593
01:37:58,480 --> 01:38:02,760
see struggle seeing changes
being made to scriptures saying,

1594
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:06,880
oh, it wasn't inspired, you
know, or this is some sort of

1595
01:38:06,880 --> 01:38:11,600
conspiracy or whatever.
But my my project here wasn't

1596
01:38:11,600 --> 01:38:15,480
saying, well, what about the
1912 scripture editing

1597
01:38:15,480 --> 01:38:18,720
committee?
Was Talmage being deceptive or

1598
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:20,320
tricky when he changed this
thing?

1599
01:38:20,720 --> 01:38:23,960
Or, you know, was he inspired or
did so and so give him

1600
01:38:23,960 --> 01:38:25,880
direction?
I don't care about it and all

1601
01:38:25,880 --> 01:38:27,760
that.
I'm only looking at what Joseph

1602
01:38:28,080 --> 01:38:33,400
changed and in doing that and
looking at it from that lens, my

1603
01:38:33,400 --> 01:38:37,000
take away from all of that is
Joseph is a revelator.

1604
01:38:37,120 --> 01:38:39,800
Revelator was not giving word
for word instructions.

1605
01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:44,280
We're we're being fair cycle and
pedantic when we really look at

1606
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:46,920
it that way.
We need to look at the concepts

1607
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:51,600
and ideas and seeing what he's
trying to express and and use

1608
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:54,560
that as our our take away, which
I frankly think is a good

1609
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:59,200
approach to all scripture.
But especially with Joseph being

1610
01:38:59,200 --> 01:39:02,600
more modernized, we can we can
see that easier.

1611
01:39:03,200 --> 01:39:07,440
And I think that's very helpful.
I recently bought a new study

1612
01:39:07,440 --> 01:39:09,440
Bible.
It's a sociological background.

1613
01:39:11,280 --> 01:39:13,560
Yeah, I think sociological
background study Bible.

1614
01:39:15,480 --> 01:39:17,920
And in it the, the guy
introducing it says the Bible

1615
01:39:17,920 --> 01:39:21,400
was written for us, but it was
not written to us.

1616
01:39:22,360 --> 01:39:26,640
Unless we understand who it's
written to, we're not receiving

1617
01:39:26,640 --> 01:39:28,840
the word that was intended for
us.

1618
01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:31,480
And I see the same thing with
Joseph Smith.

1619
01:39:31,480 --> 01:39:34,040
If we're looking at, I'm going
to get really pedantic about

1620
01:39:34,040 --> 01:39:37,920
this word and really upset that
this was, he changed it from

1621
01:39:37,920 --> 01:39:40,160
father to proprietor, proprietor
to father.

1622
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:43,760
And that proves he's a fallen
prophet or whatever.

1623
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:47,040
I think we're really getting too
Pharasaical.

1624
01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:50,440
Really we need to say is what's
the, the broad meaning of both

1625
01:39:50,440 --> 01:39:53,360
of those words?
And how do those convey an

1626
01:39:53,360 --> 01:39:57,800
understanding of who Lucifer is
in relation to Hell?

1627
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:02,560
And when we start looking at it
that way, you you see the

1628
01:40:02,560 --> 01:40:08,800
changes trying to give a a
concept to us, the principle to

1629
01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:14,440
us, not specific words.
And you know, and that's, I'll

1630
01:40:14,440 --> 01:40:17,560
get to you here in a second,
Josh, that is so important

1631
01:40:17,560 --> 01:40:22,680
because I think we all do this
to some degree.

1632
01:40:22,680 --> 01:40:26,840
We, we superimpose upon Joseph
what we think revelation should

1633
01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:30,440
look like or what it should, how
it should be communicated,

1634
01:40:30,440 --> 01:40:33,800
right?
We see this most often in that

1635
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:39,440
we don't give the profit enough
room to grow, right?

1636
01:40:39,440 --> 01:40:43,640
We assume that he receives the
fullness of everything and one

1637
01:40:43,640 --> 01:40:48,040
shot and it's all there.
And what, what I tend to see,

1638
01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:50,760
and I'm not a scholar, right?
I'll, I'll be the first guy to

1639
01:40:50,760 --> 01:40:53,880
admit that.
But what I do see is I do see

1640
01:40:53,880 --> 01:40:58,960
Joseph begin to to change like
you would expect anybody to

1641
01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:00,840
change, right?
As the Lord reveals something

1642
01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:02,400
new, he goes, oh, that's
interesting.

1643
01:41:02,840 --> 01:41:04,400
What's the implications for
that?

1644
01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:06,600
And just how he receives the
revelation.

1645
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:10,040
It's not word for word.
It's it's ideas, right?

1646
01:41:10,320 --> 01:41:14,040
Or sometimes, as we see in 76,
it's what he saw, right?

1647
01:41:14,040 --> 01:41:18,320
And so he's giving a first hand
account of what he sees, not

1648
01:41:18,320 --> 01:41:20,840
necessarily words that are
dictated to him.

1649
01:41:21,760 --> 01:41:23,600
Josh, would would you have
there?

1650
01:41:26,680 --> 01:41:30,440
I was just going to add, with
the DNC especially, you're going

1651
01:41:30,440 --> 01:41:32,880
to notice in the Book of Mormon
at the very beginning, there's a

1652
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:34,760
lot of commentary and
annotations.

1653
01:41:35,280 --> 01:41:38,400
There's a lot of commentary and
annotations throughout this, but

1654
01:41:38,400 --> 01:41:41,280
there aren't as many footnotes
as there are in the DNC.

1655
01:41:41,280 --> 01:41:44,720
You're going to see a lot of
footnotes, which we also call

1656
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:49,240
annotations.
And I just wanted to, I wanted

1657
01:41:49,240 --> 01:41:56,680
to explain why I initially was
against, and Drew knows this.

1658
01:41:56,680 --> 01:41:59,640
I was initially against all the
annotations or as many

1659
01:41:59,640 --> 01:42:01,640
annotations as we had or
footnotes.

1660
01:42:02,160 --> 01:42:04,240
But now I believe that they're
necessary.

1661
01:42:04,600 --> 01:42:08,040
They're, they're not there to
instruct us or tell us what to

1662
01:42:08,040 --> 01:42:10,400
believe.
They're there to allow us to

1663
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:15,320
trust the words or the selection
of words that we found that

1664
01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:20,240
Joseph used and and Drew just
explained why that was

1665
01:42:20,240 --> 01:42:25,000
necessary, clarifying his
revelatory understanding and he

1666
01:42:25,000 --> 01:42:28,320
was growing in his academic
abilities.

1667
01:42:28,320 --> 01:42:33,040
If you look at Joseph in 1820
and then look at him in 1843,

1668
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:37,920
even as an orator or even as a
transcriber offering words

1669
01:42:37,920 --> 01:42:40,720
describes, he was a much
different person, far more

1670
01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:43,560
sophisticated and far more
capable.

1671
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:47,600
I mean, he was dictating things
as mayor, then dictating things

1672
01:42:47,600 --> 01:42:50,040
as a prophet.
And he was very, very

1673
01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:55,040
accomplished in those years
juxtaposed against 18, what is

1674
01:42:55,040 --> 01:42:59,960
it, 18231827 when, when they
were doing those things at that

1675
01:42:59,960 --> 01:43:02,240
time.
So we have to allow for that.

1676
01:43:02,520 --> 01:43:05,440
The annotations, the footnotes
and the commentaries you're

1677
01:43:05,440 --> 01:43:08,320
going to read aren't going to
instruct you what to believe.

1678
01:43:08,640 --> 01:43:12,160
They're going to allow you to
trust the selections that we

1679
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:14,520
found that Joseph would approve
of.

1680
01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:16,400
And, and there's going to be a
lot there.

1681
01:43:16,480 --> 01:43:18,400
You're going to, you're going to
have several pages at the

1682
01:43:18,560 --> 01:43:21,880
beginning of the Book of Mormon
explaining it and then not as

1683
01:43:21,880 --> 01:43:24,440
many footnotes.
But at the beginning of the DNC,

1684
01:43:24,520 --> 01:43:27,200
you'll have several pages and a
lot of footnotes.

1685
01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:31,600
And again, for those that are
listening to this, we do intend

1686
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:36,080
to proper a, an issue or a
printing of this that limits

1687
01:43:36,080 --> 01:43:39,760
them, that limits as many
annotations and commentaries so

1688
01:43:39,760 --> 01:43:41,520
that you can just have the pure
scriptures.

1689
01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:46,480
But we really wanted you to see
and understand Joseph Smith at a

1690
01:43:46,480 --> 01:43:49,480
level that say Drew and, and
some of the rest of us

1691
01:43:49,520 --> 01:43:53,080
understand him so that you can
trust the restored version.

1692
01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:57,000
And, and actually, when you,
when that happens, then we, we

1693
01:43:57,000 --> 01:43:58,720
can, we can remove a lot of
that.

1694
01:43:59,120 --> 01:44:01,200
I was just going to put a quick
plug in here.

1695
01:44:01,480 --> 01:44:05,560
Restored Scriptures is the
website that you can go to.

1696
01:44:05,600 --> 01:44:08,800
I don't know if they I'll.
Get to that towards the end.

1697
01:44:09,520 --> 01:44:10,560
Oh yeah, yeah.
But we get that.

1698
01:44:10,560 --> 01:44:13,840
Towards the end, yeah, we'll,
we'll, we'll get there.

1699
01:44:13,840 --> 01:44:16,080
We'll tell everyone where to
find them and where to purchase

1700
01:44:16,080 --> 01:44:18,440
them and all, and all those
other things when when we get

1701
01:44:18,440 --> 01:44:22,080
there.
Back to the footnotes thing, I

1702
01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:24,200
think those are so vitally
important.

1703
01:44:24,840 --> 01:44:30,120
Unlike a lot of other scriptures
that is within the

1704
01:44:30,200 --> 01:44:36,760
Judeo-christian tradition,
they're by different authors,

1705
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:39,400
right?
Mormonism is kind of unique in

1706
01:44:39,400 --> 01:44:43,000
that most of the scripture we
get that is outside the Bible,

1707
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:46,280
and even some inside the Bible
with the inspired version comes

1708
01:44:46,280 --> 01:44:50,840
from one guy, right?
So understanding as much as we

1709
01:44:50,840 --> 01:44:56,840
can what's going on around him
at that time can definitely give

1710
01:44:56,840 --> 01:45:00,200
us some, some information and
inform us on how maybe we should

1711
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:04,440
look at those things based on
how we can conclude or, or hope

1712
01:45:04,440 --> 01:45:06,320
to get close to what Joseph was
thinking.

1713
01:45:06,480 --> 01:45:10,480
But Drew, let's let's go ahead
and let's move on now to the

1714
01:45:10,480 --> 01:45:13,080
Pearl of great price, 'cause
this one really fascinates me.

1715
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:18,120
The Pearl of great price really
fascinates me for for a couple

1716
01:45:18,120 --> 01:45:22,120
reasons.
One is, is, I mean, you start

1717
01:45:22,120 --> 01:45:24,280
diving into the Pearl of great
price, you're starting to dive

1718
01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:28,360
into some temple stuff, right?
It, I think it's really in the

1719
01:45:28,360 --> 01:45:31,360
Pearl of great price where we
start to see, you know, the

1720
01:45:31,360 --> 01:45:33,560
doctrine, the covenants
definitely, but along with the

1721
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:36,520
Pearl great price exaltation
start to become a thing within

1722
01:45:36,600 --> 01:45:40,120
the theology.
So Drew, as you went back to the

1723
01:45:40,120 --> 01:45:44,320
Pearl great price, what were
some of the challenges you faced

1724
01:45:44,320 --> 01:45:48,120
there and what were some of your
bigger doctrinal takeaways as

1725
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:51,160
you you started that process and
and throughout?

1726
01:45:54,280 --> 01:45:59,520
Each each book was different.
So in the book of Abraham, for

1727
01:45:59,520 --> 01:46:02,360
instance, I was surprised very
few changes.

1728
01:46:04,880 --> 01:46:08,520
Joseph published some of it
fairly.

1729
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:13,680
We have some early man is
restate that we have some early

1730
01:46:13,680 --> 01:46:18,280
manuscripts of Joseph in the
1830s, but then he basically had

1731
01:46:18,280 --> 01:46:21,880
to put this the project on hold
for not quite a decade, but for

1732
01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:26,040
a long time.
And I expected to see more

1733
01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:28,160
changes.
But I I don't think he really

1734
01:46:28,200 --> 01:46:32,560
had the opportunity to go back
sit, edit it carefully like he

1735
01:46:32,560 --> 01:46:36,360
did some of the other things.
So the original manuscripts

1736
01:46:36,400 --> 01:46:38,640
versus what was published in
1851.

1737
01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:42,480
Not a much, just not a lot of
annotations.

1738
01:46:42,600 --> 01:46:45,520
It's just not there that there
are some for sure.

1739
01:46:45,560 --> 01:46:51,000
I'm, I'm by no means would say
there are not, but definitely

1740
01:46:51,000 --> 01:46:55,840
not the same kind of number we
see in the DNC, probably more

1741
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:58,760
page wise per page than you'd
expect in the book.

1742
01:46:58,920 --> 01:47:01,400
Then you'd see in the Book of
Mormon a bit not not tons.

1743
01:47:02,280 --> 01:47:06,720
So I, I feel like with the book
of Abraham, a lot of that's a

1744
01:47:06,720 --> 01:47:11,400
little bit more original.
That's, that's not to say there

1745
01:47:11,400 --> 01:47:14,280
aren't any significant changes.
It's just to say they're

1746
01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:17,680
numerically smaller in amount
then then you get to see in the

1747
01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:22,960
DNC, which may be partially
because the DNC isn't just

1748
01:47:23,480 --> 01:47:27,600
Joseph Smith's revelation.
It's Joseph Smith's revelation

1749
01:47:27,880 --> 01:47:31,560
as published in the Times and
Season as published over in

1750
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:35,640
Liverpool, England, as published
in Nauvoo, as published also in

1751
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:38,120
Missouri.
And then also we have somebody

1752
01:47:38,120 --> 01:47:40,320
made a copy of it because it's
an early revelation.

1753
01:47:40,320 --> 01:47:44,600
So it's literally comparing 6 or
7 manuscripts for each

1754
01:47:44,600 --> 01:47:47,840
revelation for the earlier
sections of Doctor Covenants,

1755
01:47:48,120 --> 01:47:52,560
which was extremely tedious
because you know, sometimes 3

1756
01:47:52,560 --> 01:47:55,480
versions would be almost
identical and there would just

1757
01:47:55,480 --> 01:47:58,280
be one or two changes.
And they didn't really change

1758
01:47:58,280 --> 01:48:00,600
anything.
They were just editorial type

1759
01:48:00,680 --> 01:48:05,040
changes.
So at any rate, we don't have a

1760
01:48:05,040 --> 01:48:10,880
lot of that in the, in the book
of Abraham, which is nice in

1761
01:48:10,880 --> 01:48:15,240
the, in the book of Moses.
I was not surprised by anything.

1762
01:48:15,880 --> 01:48:19,800
And the reason is I, I finished
that work 20 years ago and 15

1763
01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:23,520
years ago with, you know, I was
just kind of up updating

1764
01:48:23,600 --> 01:48:27,320
research I'd done when I was on
my mission.

1765
01:48:27,320 --> 01:48:31,280
I found out about that you could
buy a Joseph Smith translation

1766
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:34,800
in that they were available for
sale.

1767
01:48:34,800 --> 01:48:39,360
So I bought 1 and I was super
excited to have it and, and

1768
01:48:39,400 --> 01:48:43,040
started marking verse reverse
changes.

1769
01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:46,960
So by the time I got to college,
I, I was privileged to take a

1770
01:48:46,960 --> 01:48:51,760
class from Robert J Matthews,
who is the scholar who basically

1771
01:48:51,800 --> 01:48:56,680
made the JST available to the
church and said, yes, this is

1772
01:48:56,680 --> 01:48:59,720
true.
In fact, what the original

1773
01:48:59,720 --> 01:49:03,720
manuscripts say.
And he did a whole his, I think

1774
01:49:03,720 --> 01:49:07,440
it was his senior thesis on it.
So there's a whole thick book

1775
01:49:08,240 --> 01:49:09,840
that he wrote on it and
published.

1776
01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:14,400
It's called A Planar Translation
by Robert J Matthews with a long

1777
01:49:14,400 --> 01:49:19,800
subtitle and any rate.
So I studied with him for his

1778
01:49:19,800 --> 01:49:21,200
class.
He likes people to just

1779
01:49:21,200 --> 01:49:25,480
highlight the verses of each
verse that was changed at 3410

1780
01:49:25,480 --> 01:49:28,720
of them.
But I agree, showed him that I

1781
01:49:28,720 --> 01:49:32,000
already done a bunch of that and
could I just underline every

1782
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:34,480
word that was changed?
So I'd already done that.

1783
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:39,000
So when I got to this version of
it, I'd already compared the the

1784
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:42,280
verses numbers side by side.
So I had both of them showing

1785
01:49:42,520 --> 01:49:44,840
King James versus Joseph Smith
verse.

1786
01:49:45,360 --> 01:49:49,360
I already had italicized or
underlined the words word for

1787
01:49:49,360 --> 01:49:53,240
word and it already paid
somebody type it up for me about

1788
01:49:53,240 --> 01:49:56,640
10-15 years ago.
And so I just took that

1789
01:49:56,640 --> 01:50:00,360
manuscript.
I had italicized versus

1790
01:50:00,360 --> 01:50:04,640
underline the changes, double
checked everything for editing

1791
01:50:04,640 --> 01:50:08,840
purposes and, and moved on.
So because I'd done that so for

1792
01:50:08,840 --> 01:50:11,760
so many years, but ahead of
time, nothing surprised me.

1793
01:50:13,280 --> 01:50:16,600
And, and honestly, it's, it's so
stuck in my head that I

1794
01:50:16,600 --> 01:50:18,880
couldn't, couldn't tell you a
whole lot of changes that are

1795
01:50:18,880 --> 01:50:22,920
really super interesting because
it's just normal to me.

1796
01:50:23,400 --> 01:50:29,240
However, I will mention one and
and and I didn't notice that

1797
01:50:29,240 --> 01:50:33,240
this part did surprise because I
think there were some side notes

1798
01:50:33,240 --> 01:50:36,760
didn't make the original
manuscripts and they may not to

1799
01:50:36,760 --> 01:50:40,680
my knowledge, don't even show up
in the Joseph Smith papers.

1800
01:50:42,000 --> 01:50:47,680
But some maybe some scraps of
paper or something that that

1801
01:50:47,680 --> 01:50:53,520
added a change or two that I did
not see and or annotate because

1802
01:50:53,520 --> 01:50:56,360
I couldn't find the original
material for the restored

1803
01:50:56,360 --> 01:51:00,680
version.
That's, that's this when Enoch

1804
01:51:00,680 --> 01:51:03,640
is talking with God and seeing
the wickedness of the people.

1805
01:51:06,200 --> 01:51:10,160
It, it originally says there,
there's varying versions there.

1806
01:51:10,200 --> 01:51:16,760
There's a version where Enoch
cries and says, this is awful.

1807
01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:18,320
I can't believe how wicked your
children are.

1808
01:51:19,000 --> 01:51:22,520
Then there's a revision of it
that says God was crying because

1809
01:51:22,520 --> 01:51:26,080
of the wickedness of the people.
Then there's another revision

1810
01:51:26,360 --> 01:51:29,920
and I think this is one that
finally makes it in there, says

1811
01:51:29,960 --> 01:51:33,400
God cries and Enoch cries
because of the wickedness of the

1812
01:51:33,400 --> 01:51:36,200
people.
But then God steps forward and

1813
01:51:36,200 --> 01:51:38,560
says, all right, Neph Cran, get
your stuff together.

1814
01:51:38,560 --> 01:51:41,400
We're going to move on.
Other things to talk about.

1815
01:51:42,320 --> 01:51:48,440
And so looking at those changes,
that's a really substantive

1816
01:51:48,440 --> 01:51:52,760
change from the original.
And I'm, I'm curious about what

1817
01:51:53,080 --> 01:51:55,880
Joseph saw that made him write
it like that.

1818
01:51:55,880 --> 01:52:00,880
And for viewers or listeners,
sorry, who haven't gone into

1819
01:52:00,880 --> 01:52:03,840
this too much, I'll point a
little bit of history that

1820
01:52:03,840 --> 01:52:05,240
explains that a little bit
better.

1821
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:11,320
So Joseph said and it's recorded
and this is also and forgot

1822
01:52:11,320 --> 01:52:13,560
teachings of Joseph Smith and
the two volumes I published,

1823
01:52:14,120 --> 01:52:17,640
Joseph recording said I read the
entire Bible with the Urim and

1824
01:52:17,640 --> 01:52:20,160
Thummim.
I saw it all in panoramic

1825
01:52:20,160 --> 01:52:22,520
vision.
I believe that's paraphrasing,

1826
01:52:22,520 --> 01:52:24,080
but pretty close to his original
words.

1827
01:52:25,160 --> 01:52:29,360
Later people said, Joseph, did
you use the Urim and Thummim to

1828
01:52:29,360 --> 01:52:32,760
translate the Bible?
And he said no and they said why

1829
01:52:32,760 --> 01:52:36,000
not.
And incidentally, when he quit

1830
01:52:36,000 --> 01:52:39,520
using the seer stone in the Urim
and Thummim, I believe it was

1831
01:52:39,520 --> 01:52:42,400
early Nauvoo.
A lot of the Saints really

1832
01:52:42,400 --> 01:52:44,960
struggled with that said how can
you be a seer if you're not

1833
01:52:44,960 --> 01:52:49,160
using a seer stone?
But when Joseph replied about

1834
01:52:49,160 --> 01:52:52,800
the book, about the Bible, he
said, I didn't need it because I

1835
01:52:52,800 --> 01:52:56,160
grew the principle of revelation
that I no longer needed those

1836
01:52:56,160 --> 01:53:00,400
tools.
And and so when he changes,

1837
01:53:00,440 --> 01:53:03,360
Enoch cried, No, God cried.
No, they both cried.

1838
01:53:04,480 --> 01:53:08,520
I, I wonder, you know, he's
remembering back when he saw the

1839
01:53:08,520 --> 01:53:13,040
vision, writing down part of it
say, Oh, wait, you know, and it

1840
01:53:13,040 --> 01:53:16,320
changes something.
And again, oh, wait, it wasn't

1841
01:53:16,320 --> 01:53:17,760
just Enoch.
It was both of them.

1842
01:53:17,800 --> 01:53:20,640
And then God's because God said
this time he said, stop weeping.

1843
01:53:21,160 --> 01:53:24,080
And you know, because in Enoch
says, how can they weep?

1844
01:53:24,080 --> 01:53:27,480
And he said, I forgot to mention
God was weeping or, or whatever.

1845
01:53:27,920 --> 01:53:31,760
I, I read that now again, from
that perspective of Joseph saw

1846
01:53:31,760 --> 01:53:34,800
things, he wrote it down later.
He said, oh, I didn't, I didn't

1847
01:53:34,800 --> 01:53:36,560
write that well, I forgot about
that part.

1848
01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:39,400
And you know, there were years
between when he sees a panoramic

1849
01:53:39,400 --> 01:53:42,280
vision from when he translates
as he calls it.

1850
01:53:43,680 --> 01:53:46,840
And and so again, I see that
that revelatory influence.

1851
01:53:46,840 --> 01:53:50,920
I was talking about earlier
concepts and ideas that could

1852
01:53:50,920 --> 01:53:54,400
use clarification later, but
that's particularly interesting

1853
01:53:54,400 --> 01:53:57,320
one and, and one that's way
easier to argue.

1854
01:53:57,640 --> 01:54:00,680
Joseph's the following prophet
is just making crap up and that

1855
01:54:00,680 --> 01:54:03,640
sort of thing.
But I think with the lens that

1856
01:54:03,920 --> 01:54:07,840
that I have, it's a, it's a much
more you can if you're

1857
01:54:07,840 --> 01:54:09,520
skeptical, it's a naive
perspective.

1858
01:54:10,280 --> 01:54:15,680
And if you're not skeptical, I I
think it's a more kind

1859
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:19,960
perspective towards how how he's
recording these things.

1860
01:54:20,720 --> 01:54:23,520
Few weeks back I had Justin
Frankham on the podcast where he

1861
01:54:23,520 --> 01:54:27,240
laid out a bold plan to help
people and families from all

1862
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:29,920
areas of the restoration that
are looking for a new home in

1863
01:54:29,920 --> 01:54:32,840
Mormonism.
Mormon Legacy Ministries is an

1864
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:38,000
online multi faith effort to be
a place where folks can come and

1865
01:54:38,000 --> 01:54:41,160
learn and have fellowship while
they find their new church home.

1866
01:54:41,720 --> 01:54:45,240
Now it doesn't matter if folks
end up back in the LDS Church, a

1867
01:54:45,240 --> 01:54:47,400
fundamentalist church, or an
independent.

1868
01:54:47,400 --> 01:54:50,440
We just want people to go where
it is that the Lord tells them

1869
01:54:50,440 --> 01:54:52,120
to go where they can do the most
good.

1870
01:54:52,680 --> 01:54:55,920
Now as of last Saturday, a few
of those meetings are now up and

1871
01:54:55,920 --> 01:54:58,000
running.
So there are four meetings that

1872
01:54:58,000 --> 01:55:02,120
are available to you on the 2nd
and 4th Saturday of every month

1873
01:55:02,120 --> 01:55:03,880
at 3:00 PM Mountain Standard
Time.

1874
01:55:03,880 --> 01:55:07,600
A Sacrament meeting is available
on Monday nights at 7:00 PM

1875
01:55:07,600 --> 01:55:12,960
Mountain Standard Time is a
men's meeting on Thursday night

1876
01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:14,960
at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard
Time.

1877
01:55:14,960 --> 01:55:19,160
A Gospel Fundamentals class is
available then on the 1st and

1878
01:55:19,520 --> 01:55:23,200
Tuesday of every month at 7:00
PM Mountain Standard Time.

1879
01:55:23,200 --> 01:55:26,520
Starting in October, a Women
Women's meeting will be held.

1880
01:55:27,080 --> 01:55:30,720
Now it doesn't matter if you are
a member of the LDS Church, a

1881
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:35,360
fundamentalist, a person from
other Restoration branches and

1882
01:55:35,360 --> 01:55:39,120
investigator, or a never Mormon,
these meetings are available to

1883
01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:41,320
all.
Now it doesn't even matter where

1884
01:55:41,320 --> 01:55:45,440
you live, East Coast, West
Coast, Midwest, Canada, Mexico,

1885
01:55:45,440 --> 01:55:49,080
Europe, you name it, you have
access to all these meetings.

1886
01:55:49,320 --> 01:55:53,440
All you need to do is to go to
mormonlegacy.org, scroll to the

1887
01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:56,160
bottom of the landing page and
just click the link of the

1888
01:55:56,160 --> 01:55:58,200
meeting you want to join.
That's it.

1889
01:55:58,640 --> 01:56:01,560
So whether you want a soft place
to land while you look for your

1890
01:56:01,560 --> 01:56:06,320
new church home, you're curious
about early Mormon teachings, or

1891
01:56:06,320 --> 01:56:09,640
you just really want to be part
of something and they're already

1892
01:56:09,640 --> 01:56:11,880
member of a church and want to
stay there but want more

1893
01:56:11,880 --> 01:56:14,920
opportunities to serve, this
could be the place for you.

1894
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:19,080
Again, you can access all those
meetings and reach out to

1895
01:56:19,080 --> 01:56:23,560
anybody with the ministry by
going to mormonlegacy.org or by

1896
01:56:23,560 --> 01:56:25,160
clicking the link in this
episode.

1897
01:56:25,160 --> 01:56:26,360
Show notes.
Thank you.

1898
01:56:27,480 --> 01:56:28,280
Sure.
Yeah.

1899
01:56:28,280 --> 01:56:29,720
No, absolutely.
I can see that.

1900
01:56:30,760 --> 01:56:36,560
So with that there, there's one
other thing in the Pearl Great

1901
01:56:36,560 --> 01:56:40,840
price that I was curious about
in thinking about this, this our

1902
01:56:40,840 --> 01:56:44,680
conversation here and that is
the first vision, right, that's

1903
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:46,360
included in the Pearl great
price.

1904
01:56:46,360 --> 01:56:49,000
Is that going to be in there as
well, the Joseph Smith history?

1905
01:56:51,200 --> 01:56:55,680
I think so and I say I think so
because I finished this months

1906
01:56:55,680 --> 01:57:03,320
ago and that I, I included the
1851 version and I believe that

1907
01:57:03,320 --> 01:57:10,120
includes the first vision.
But I say that because I've I've

1908
01:57:10,200 --> 01:57:13,720
I compiled an understanding Adam
God teaching some 15 or 18

1909
01:57:13,720 --> 01:57:15,600
different versions of the first
vision.

1910
01:57:16,080 --> 01:57:17,720
Right.
That was my next question.

1911
01:57:17,720 --> 01:57:19,760
That's where I was going.
I was wondering how you handled

1912
01:57:19,760 --> 01:57:20,560
that.
Yeah.

1913
01:57:20,600 --> 01:57:24,680
And I think there's also
similarly those are in the

1914
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:31,320
forgotten Mormon teachings, but
with maybe, maybe not the full

1915
01:57:31,320 --> 01:57:33,000
context.
And I've got a a book that's

1916
01:57:33,000 --> 01:57:36,160
just all the different versions
of it all the way through, which

1917
01:57:36,360 --> 01:57:40,400
was tedious and boring and
doesn't really explain much in

1918
01:57:40,400 --> 01:57:43,680
some places.
I think all the all the fun

1919
01:57:43,680 --> 01:57:45,680
stuff is is in my previous
publications.

1920
01:57:46,360 --> 01:57:50,880
But what I did was reproduce the
1851 version of the Pearl.

1921
01:57:50,880 --> 01:57:55,840
Great Price and didn't stray or
annotate beyond that.

1922
01:57:56,720 --> 01:58:00,640
So yes, we have other versions.
Yes, there are other copies of

1923
01:58:00,640 --> 01:58:06,360
it, but no, I didn't compare
them because 1851 was the first

1924
01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:11,240
Pearl of Great Price and our
intention was to recreate the

1925
01:58:11,240 --> 01:58:16,760
earliest version of Scripture as
was published and and not to

1926
01:58:16,920 --> 01:58:20,400
deeply annotate it.
Now, that said, if the guys came

1927
01:58:20,400 --> 01:58:22,960
along and said we're going to
postpone publishing for a month

1928
01:58:23,520 --> 01:58:25,600
because that's how long it's
going to take me to do that,

1929
01:58:26,040 --> 01:58:29,120
let's put in all the versions of
the first vision from beginning

1930
01:58:29,120 --> 01:58:32,280
to end.
And no, no ellipses and skipping

1931
01:58:32,280 --> 01:58:34,680
stuff that's boring.
Just get it all there and, and

1932
01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:37,120
annotate it.
I'd be I'd be happy to do it.

1933
01:58:37,880 --> 01:58:40,160
I think there's a lot of really
interesting stuff there.

1934
01:58:41,000 --> 01:58:44,040
But again, it's not in the
original Pearl Great price.

1935
01:58:44,040 --> 01:58:47,200
It's not even in later versions
of the Pearl Great Price where

1936
01:58:47,200 --> 01:58:48,720
we see all those different
versions.

1937
01:58:49,160 --> 01:58:52,960
So the scope of the project
being it was, whether it was

1938
01:58:53,360 --> 01:58:57,200
those were not included, no, it
makes perfect.

1939
01:58:57,200 --> 01:59:01,360
Based on the growing, changing
attitude of the committee, I

1940
01:59:01,360 --> 01:59:03,560
could see a future version
including all that as an

1941
01:59:03,560 --> 01:59:05,760
appendix.
Right.

1942
01:59:06,280 --> 01:59:08,600
And if if there was a high
demand and people started

1943
01:59:08,600 --> 01:59:11,240
complaining about it and I'd be
happy to do it.

1944
01:59:11,680 --> 01:59:16,560
But anyway, we take at least at
least a month probably to put

1945
01:59:16,560 --> 01:59:18,680
that all together.
Sure.

1946
01:59:19,080 --> 01:59:20,640
And did you do anything with the
Bible?

1947
01:59:20,880 --> 01:59:27,400
Is there going to be a restored
version of the of the Bible?

1948
01:59:28,200 --> 01:59:32,080
Josh?
Hold on, Josh, do.

1949
01:59:32,920 --> 01:59:38,280
You mind, Drew that I that I
take this he and I OK, so this

1950
01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:41,200
we were I was going to wait and
tease this out at the end, but

1951
01:59:41,680 --> 01:59:45,520
as soon as this triple the
restored version comes out Drew

1952
01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:48,400
and I I don't even know that
we've really discussed this in

1953
01:59:48,400 --> 01:59:50,840
committee.
So I don't know that Michael or

1954
01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:55,360
Kevin even know about this, but
I had made the suggestion that

1955
01:59:55,360 --> 02:00:02,600
we go through and, and take,
take your time and, and myself

1956
02:00:03,280 --> 02:00:06,800
and 'cause I have AI have a
burning interest in the Joseph

1957
02:00:06,800 --> 02:00:09,360
Smith translation.
Joseph Smith, as you may know,

1958
02:00:09,360 --> 02:00:13,000
may or may not know, called the
German Bible, which would have

1959
02:00:13,000 --> 02:00:15,520
been the Luther Bible.
That what he called the German

1960
02:00:15,520 --> 02:00:17,080
Bible.
He said that was actually the

1961
02:00:17,080 --> 02:00:20,040
most correct.
There are a couple of statements

1962
02:00:20,040 --> 02:00:23,200
to that effect.
Nevertheless, he approved of the

1963
02:00:23,200 --> 02:00:27,400
King James and then made the
Joseph Smith translations of the

1964
02:00:27,400 --> 02:00:32,120
King James and what I was hoping
and drew found interesting.

1965
02:00:32,120 --> 02:00:36,840
I'll let him kind of follow up
is a, is a Bible that is the

1966
02:00:36,840 --> 02:00:40,120
Joseph Smith translation of the
Bible with annotations,

1967
02:00:40,120 --> 02:00:45,440
additions and in the form of
footnotes.

1968
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:50,320
Or if, if the if the record
reflects it clearly enough,

1969
02:00:50,680 --> 02:00:55,000
making the changes all together
to reflect the accuracies that

1970
02:00:55,000 --> 02:00:58,280
Joseph Smith listed with what he
called the German Bible, which

1971
02:00:58,280 --> 02:01:01,800
is the Luther Bible.
So yes, I, I hope that that's

1972
02:01:01,800 --> 02:01:03,560
coming.
Hasn't been discussed in

1973
02:01:03,560 --> 02:01:06,920
committee, but Drew and I have
discussed it a little bit.

1974
02:01:07,920 --> 02:01:10,000
I'll table that one.
We may have to have a separate

1975
02:01:10,000 --> 02:01:11,760
podcast for that one.
Drew, what we're going to

1976
02:01:11,760 --> 02:01:14,240
mention on that.
OK, so two things.

1977
02:01:14,240 --> 02:01:18,320
First of all, the book of Moses
is the Josh Smith translation

1978
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:21,600
Genesis.
A lot of people don't know that,

1979
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:24,960
but I, I make that explicitly
clear in the Pearl of great

1980
02:01:24,960 --> 02:01:29,200
price that these are JST versus
King James Version or just Bible

1981
02:01:29,200 --> 02:01:32,760
verses.
And in some places the Moses

1982
02:01:32,760 --> 02:01:36,560
chapters are different.
So I, I, I know know all of

1983
02:01:36,560 --> 02:01:38,240
those.
So you can find it no matter

1984
02:01:38,240 --> 02:01:41,920
which one you're referring to.
Also, Joseph Smith, Matthew

1985
02:01:41,920 --> 02:01:45,080
verses 24 was part of the Pearl
of great price still is.

1986
02:01:45,880 --> 02:01:50,480
That was such a bear to edit
because not only did Joseph add,

1987
02:01:50,480 --> 02:01:54,240
delete and change versus, he
also rearranged versus.

1988
02:01:55,520 --> 02:01:58,520
And so that's a little bit of a
bit of a bear to follow.

1989
02:01:59,400 --> 02:02:05,320
But anyway, so those are there
as to what what Joshua was just

1990
02:02:05,320 --> 02:02:07,000
talking about.
One of the things I mentioned to

1991
02:02:07,000 --> 02:02:10,840
him, some people feel like such
a work is not necessary because

1992
02:02:10,840 --> 02:02:13,400
there's a parallel version of
the Joseph Smith translation

1993
02:02:13,400 --> 02:02:17,120
with the Bible.
And my response to that is

1994
02:02:17,360 --> 02:02:23,800
that's a horrific volume and I
hate it. 100% would never own

1995
02:02:23,800 --> 02:02:25,360
it, would never recommend it.
Here's why.

1996
02:02:26,840 --> 02:02:30,360
As I mentioned earlier, there
are 3410 verses where Joseph

1997
02:02:30,360 --> 02:02:34,720
changed the Bible.
However, that parallel version

1998
02:02:35,120 --> 02:02:39,480
includes every change also in
spelling from the American

1999
02:02:39,480 --> 02:02:43,360
version to the English version,
meaning Britain.

2000
02:02:44,200 --> 02:02:47,840
Joseph used an American version,
the person who made that volume

2001
02:02:47,840 --> 02:02:52,520
used a British version, and so
Savior was changed from SAVIOUR

2002
02:02:52,760 --> 02:02:56,720
to SAVIOR.
He attributed that to Joseph and

2003
02:02:56,720 --> 02:02:59,040
put it in the parallel version,
but nothing else changed.

2004
02:02:59,560 --> 02:03:03,480
And so there are thousands of
verses in there that are not

2005
02:03:03,480 --> 02:03:05,320
changes that Joseph did anything
with.

2006
02:03:05,760 --> 02:03:08,640
So it's a complete disaster and
awful.

2007
02:03:10,160 --> 02:03:15,280
I also personally believe if
Joseph Smith were alive, being

2008
02:03:15,280 --> 02:03:17,920
so interested in the original
languages and proper

2009
02:03:17,920 --> 02:03:22,400
translations and offering
various translations, and now we

2010
02:03:22,400 --> 02:03:27,040
absolutely 100% academically
know the King James Version is

2011
02:03:27,080 --> 02:03:31,360
the most inaccurate set of
manuscripts of any Bible version

2012
02:03:31,360 --> 02:03:34,320
on the market today.
I don't think Joseph would use

2013
02:03:34,320 --> 02:03:36,000
it.
The others were not available at

2014
02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:38,400
his time.
I think you'd probably use an

2015
02:03:38,400 --> 02:03:43,640
NRSV, maybe an RSV, but
certainly not the King James

2016
02:03:43,640 --> 02:03:45,320
Version.
Because it has the most

2017
02:03:45,320 --> 02:03:48,520
corruptions of any Bible that we
have.

2018
02:03:48,760 --> 02:03:53,080
It includes most of the
corruptions from from

2019
02:03:53,080 --> 02:03:56,560
manuscripts as late as 7th, 8th,
and even like 12th century

2020
02:03:56,880 --> 02:03:59,200
manuscript copies that added
change stuff.

2021
02:03:59,720 --> 02:04:02,480
King James has it all whereas a
lot of the other translations

2022
02:04:02,480 --> 02:04:05,200
don't.
So I personally think he would

2023
02:04:05,200 --> 02:04:06,720
be using a different
translation.

2024
02:04:07,040 --> 02:04:12,480
But I'm very interested in
recreating that parallel column

2025
02:04:12,480 --> 02:04:14,920
version without the parallel
columns.

2026
02:04:14,920 --> 02:04:18,440
And just saying here the verses
of Joseph changed so that you

2027
02:04:18,440 --> 02:04:22,160
can see what he changed, where
he changed it can compare it to

2028
02:04:22,160 --> 02:04:24,360
your Bible, whichever
translation you use.

2029
02:04:24,960 --> 02:04:29,000
I don't read German, so I don't
know if Joshua reads German, but

2030
02:04:29,000 --> 02:04:32,320
if if he wants to input on the
German stuff that's great, but

2031
02:04:32,320 --> 02:04:33,680
otherwise I don't read it
enough.

2032
02:04:33,680 --> 02:04:36,440
I couldn't.
As I understand it, there is no

2033
02:04:36,480 --> 02:04:40,480
anglicized version of the Luther
Bible, so that would be quite.

2034
02:04:40,480 --> 02:04:43,720
And it's it was published
originally in the 1500s, so

2035
02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:45,360
there's no copyright problem
with that.

2036
02:04:45,360 --> 02:04:49,120
But that is, that is a very
highly ambitious endeavor.

2037
02:04:49,560 --> 02:04:52,200
You know.
That's highly ambitious.

2038
02:04:52,400 --> 02:04:55,880
Yeah, that version of it I would
not be qualified to do, but I

2039
02:04:55,880 --> 02:05:00,640
would be happy to write down
those 3410 verses with changes

2040
02:05:00,640 --> 02:05:04,240
just like I did for this project
for the for the Genesis slash

2041
02:05:04,760 --> 02:05:08,000
Moses chapters.
So you can see what it would

2042
02:05:08,000 --> 02:05:10,400
look like.
Italicized text is what he

2043
02:05:10,400 --> 02:05:15,280
changed or added and then
footnotes were necessary of what

2044
02:05:15,280 --> 02:05:16,680
he deleted or something like
that.

2045
02:05:17,400 --> 02:05:20,640
So yeah, that could be a future
quad version.

2046
02:05:22,600 --> 02:05:25,240
We'll we'll see what what
happens.

2047
02:05:26,280 --> 02:05:29,720
Gotcha, gotcha.
All right here before before we

2048
02:05:29,720 --> 02:05:33,080
move on here to to the final
part, telling people where they

2049
02:05:33,080 --> 02:05:36,640
can grab the book and you grab
the the triple and that sort of

2050
02:05:36,640 --> 02:05:40,520
stuff.
I would be remiss if I didn't

2051
02:05:40,520 --> 02:05:42,760
ask this, and I want to say this
on the outset.

2052
02:05:42,880 --> 02:05:46,600
I mean no disrespect to any of
the men here that that I'm going

2053
02:05:46,600 --> 02:05:47,840
to be.
Here we go.

2054
02:05:47,840 --> 02:05:53,840
Fair enough.
But there, there is, as you

2055
02:05:53,840 --> 02:05:57,600
said, there, there is kind of a
a group that's that's doing this

2056
02:05:57,600 --> 02:05:59,280
right there.
There's you, there's Kevin

2057
02:05:59,280 --> 02:06:02,880
Kraut, there's Joshua Winchell,
Michael Sundell.

2058
02:06:06,440 --> 02:06:10,920
My question is this in this
process and and let me just say

2059
02:06:10,920 --> 02:06:15,440
this, people are very familiar
and comfortable with the name

2060
02:06:15,440 --> 02:06:19,120
Drew Briny and Ogden slash Kevin
Kraut, right?

2061
02:06:19,480 --> 02:06:26,760
They have been staples in in the
in the the the community for

2062
02:06:26,760 --> 02:06:28,600
quite some time.
Yeah.

2063
02:06:31,280 --> 02:06:35,040
We're less familiar with Joshua
and Michael, and I'm not saying

2064
02:06:35,040 --> 02:06:37,840
they're bad guys.
I don't get, you know, that's

2065
02:06:37,840 --> 02:06:41,520
not what I'm saying at all.
I've known Joshua for about a

2066
02:06:41,520 --> 02:06:44,160
year and a half, two years now.
We've talked off and on.

2067
02:06:46,160 --> 02:06:50,680
But in this process as, as you
know, Drew's going through this

2068
02:06:50,680 --> 02:06:54,160
stuff and he's putting this
together, what is the process

2069
02:06:54,160 --> 02:06:56,760
like?
Like when when Drew submits his

2070
02:06:56,760 --> 02:07:00,960
stuff to to the border or
however you guys refer to it,

2071
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:06,160
does that board have input on
what gets put in and what

2072
02:07:06,160 --> 02:07:09,440
doesn't?
And then if so, how does that

2073
02:07:09,440 --> 02:07:13,040
affect the final product?
Great question.

2074
02:07:13,600 --> 02:07:15,880
Do you want to hit that first,
Josh, or should I grab that?

2075
02:07:16,520 --> 02:07:21,960
I'll just kind of segue into,
into what you're saying when you

2076
02:07:21,960 --> 02:07:25,880
say the board, the board is for
people and what what that is, is

2077
02:07:26,080 --> 02:07:30,120
our impetus.
Our desire was to arrive at what

2078
02:07:30,120 --> 02:07:32,600
we call the Joseph Smith version
at first.

2079
02:07:32,800 --> 02:07:35,600
Now, we ended up not using that
for the Scriptures.

2080
02:07:35,960 --> 02:07:38,920
We we believe that that was a
little bit pretentious in light

2081
02:07:38,920 --> 02:07:40,880
of some of the differing
denominations.

2082
02:07:40,880 --> 02:07:45,480
We didn't want, we didn't want
any kind of, you know, acrimony

2083
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:48,480
over saying, hey, they call Mr.
Joseph Smith version where we

2084
02:07:48,480 --> 02:07:51,480
all believe Joseph Smith is the
dispensation leader.

2085
02:07:51,480 --> 02:07:56,040
What makes this so, so great?
Our hope was to offer what we

2086
02:07:56,040 --> 02:07:59,000
called a clean set of scriptures
that Joseph would approve of.

2087
02:07:59,360 --> 02:08:03,880
Now, we knew that Drew had the
knowledge that the tenacity and

2088
02:08:03,880 --> 02:08:06,760
the tedious nature to go through
and do all of this.

2089
02:08:06,920 --> 02:08:12,640
So when you say that he proffers
it to us for correction, I don't

2090
02:08:12,640 --> 02:08:15,480
think, I mean there were, I'll
just be honest, there were two

2091
02:08:15,480 --> 02:08:20,880
discussions early on about a
year and two months ago where it

2092
02:08:20,880 --> 02:08:25,360
got to a level for about 3
minutes where we were, where we

2093
02:08:25,360 --> 02:08:29,600
were a little bit.
There was a misunderstanding and

2094
02:08:29,600 --> 02:08:32,480
A and a desire.
And Drew was very patient.

2095
02:08:32,760 --> 02:08:37,640
He walked through categorically.
There were like 5 points and the

2096
02:08:37,640 --> 02:08:39,520
four points that we were talking
about.

2097
02:08:39,520 --> 02:08:43,520
This had to do with Joseph's
input on formatting.

2098
02:08:44,160 --> 02:08:47,120
And he just, he walked through,
he just said, OK, then let's go

2099
02:08:47,120 --> 02:08:49,880
through the dates On this date.
He wrote this, On this date,

2100
02:08:49,880 --> 02:08:51,720
this, and I can get you these
things.

2101
02:08:51,960 --> 02:08:54,960
We can go ahead and keep this
original formatting if this is

2102
02:08:54,960 --> 02:08:57,560
what you guys want because you
believe in the sacred nature of

2103
02:08:57,560 --> 02:09:01,000
the 1830s, or we can add these
things.

2104
02:09:01,040 --> 02:09:05,240
And I think by the end of that
discussion, both Sundell, myself

2105
02:09:05,240 --> 02:09:09,920
and I think even Kevin came to
the conclusion that that it

2106
02:09:09,920 --> 02:09:14,080
wasn't Drew's intellect.
It was all of the exhaustive

2107
02:09:14,080 --> 02:09:17,760
research and the overwhelming
evidence of what he was saying.

2108
02:09:18,240 --> 02:09:20,560
So I think there's a humility on
our side.

2109
02:09:20,560 --> 02:09:22,880
Yes.
Are we new to the community?

2110
02:09:23,120 --> 02:09:26,000
I, I would have to say yes.
You've known me for two years.

2111
02:09:26,280 --> 02:09:31,160
I don't think I've done anything
that to, you know, extirpate

2112
02:09:31,160 --> 02:09:35,400
myself or create any kind of
division, you know it within the

2113
02:09:35,400 --> 02:09:39,040
the fundamentalist or the
orthodox Mormon community.

2114
02:09:39,360 --> 02:09:43,000
But you're absolutely right.
So those discussions, they did

2115
02:09:43,000 --> 02:09:45,960
exist.
They lasted I think about 3 to 6

2116
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:48,600
minutes.
And then it became daunting or

2117
02:09:48,600 --> 02:09:51,400
overwhelming the amount of
evidence that that was being

2118
02:09:51,400 --> 02:09:54,240
presented to us.
So what we did is we always

2119
02:09:54,240 --> 02:09:59,320
relied on the research and on
what we could ascertain as to

2120
02:09:59,320 --> 02:10:01,320
what his original intentions
were.

2121
02:10:01,520 --> 02:10:05,320
And there were no dogfights.
It wasn't Drew versus US, US

2122
02:10:05,320 --> 02:10:07,640
versus Drew.
We're going to withhold this if

2123
02:10:07,640 --> 02:10:09,320
Drew doesn't do what we want to
do.

2124
02:10:09,560 --> 02:10:12,040
It was always about getting the
clean version out.

2125
02:10:12,040 --> 02:10:14,720
And there was a strong
outpouring, especially at first,

2126
02:10:15,000 --> 02:10:19,360
of the Holy Ghost, that we just
wanted Joseph's words clearly

2127
02:10:19,360 --> 02:10:25,360
out there in a cogent way.
As far as what I bring, all I

2128
02:10:25,360 --> 02:10:27,840
can say is it's not tenacity
with me.

2129
02:10:28,280 --> 02:10:33,160
I bring a a burning abiding hope
that if we can get a set of

2130
02:10:33,160 --> 02:10:36,600
scriptures that are trusted
within our communities,

2131
02:10:36,760 --> 02:10:39,600
especially in light of some of
the civic developments that are

2132
02:10:39,600 --> 02:10:42,040
happening in the civilized
nations around the world.

2133
02:10:42,320 --> 02:10:48,000
If there's ever any crises, a
hope that we can consolidate

2134
02:10:48,120 --> 02:10:52,560
under a dispensation leader in a
way that's respectful and

2135
02:10:52,560 --> 02:10:56,240
doesn't have much acrimony where
we can understand each other.

2136
02:10:56,400 --> 02:11:00,520
I think we will all as
fundamentalist or orthodox or

2137
02:11:01,320 --> 02:11:04,840
formative Mormons, I think we
will all be better off.

2138
02:11:05,680 --> 02:11:07,680
So no, I don't.
I don't have a dogfight.

2139
02:11:07,680 --> 02:11:13,720
I'm not looking to to express or
impose my my views or the force

2140
02:11:13,720 --> 02:11:18,160
of my opinions on people.
We want Joseph Smith's words in

2141
02:11:18,160 --> 02:11:20,720
your hands.
It is that pretty accurate,

2142
02:11:20,720 --> 02:11:22,960
Drew.
I mean, you know my personality.

2143
02:11:23,760 --> 02:11:27,200
Hold on, Hold on, hold on.
Josh.

2144
02:11:27,200 --> 02:11:29,200
You said something there.
And I think Drew knows exactly

2145
02:11:29,200 --> 02:11:32,320
where I'm going.
I, I want to, I want, I want to

2146
02:11:32,320 --> 02:11:34,040
explore this a little bit here,
right?

2147
02:11:34,480 --> 02:11:39,120
Just in the in, in terms of
intention, you said you wanted a

2148
02:11:39,120 --> 02:11:42,680
clean set of scriptures so that
as things go bad we could all

2149
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:48,840
consolidate under 11 prophetic
leader or something of that.

2150
02:11:48,840 --> 02:11:50,800
Nature.
No, no, you misunderstood.

2151
02:11:51,200 --> 02:11:55,080
I, I I'm an independent.
Currently I'm an independent.

2152
02:11:56,720 --> 02:12:00,760
I don't have intention as far as
under one leader.

2153
02:12:00,760 --> 02:12:05,320
I said the dispensation leader,
who is Joseph Smith, but I think

2154
02:12:05,320 --> 02:12:08,520
we all look to.
So no, I mean, I know you,

2155
02:12:08,520 --> 02:12:10,160
David.
I know people have had this

2156
02:12:10,160 --> 02:12:12,320
conversation.
I'm not steering clear of it.

2157
02:12:12,560 --> 02:12:15,240
I'm I've always told you, you
know, as it's joking on the

2158
02:12:15,240 --> 02:12:17,480
side, I'm not the one mighty and
strong.

2159
02:12:17,960 --> 02:12:18,480
I'm.
Not the.

2160
02:12:18,480 --> 02:12:21,680
Guy out there that's going to
that's going to bring the folks

2161
02:12:21,680 --> 02:12:25,040
this, that and the other.
I'm saying we can consolidate.

2162
02:12:25,080 --> 02:12:28,120
Under the Under Joe Joseph Smith
as the dispensation leader.

2163
02:12:28,520 --> 02:12:29,960
I see.
I see what you meant.

2164
02:12:30,040 --> 02:12:31,480
Under.
Under Joseph Smith.

2165
02:12:31,480 --> 02:12:32,800
No.
OK, I got you.

2166
02:12:32,880 --> 02:12:34,160
OK.
Fair enough.

2167
02:12:34,720 --> 02:12:36,480
Sorry, Drew, I didn't mean to
cut you off.

2168
02:12:36,480 --> 02:12:40,120
I just wanted to get that taken
care of there a little bit.

2169
02:12:40,680 --> 02:12:41,880
That's fine.
Yeah.

2170
02:12:43,000 --> 02:12:45,320
OK.
So I would just make one

2171
02:12:45,480 --> 02:12:51,200
clarification and then I'll kind
of go back to your original

2172
02:12:51,200 --> 02:12:56,080
question.
There was at one point a strong

2173
02:12:56,080 --> 02:12:58,320
feeling to use the original
punctuation.

2174
02:12:59,320 --> 02:13:04,280
And so I did the entire, I'd
already started changing the

2175
02:13:04,280 --> 02:13:07,840
punctuation to modernize it
because it just, I, I understood

2176
02:13:07,840 --> 02:13:11,480
that's what everybody wanted.
And then the, the feeling was,

2177
02:13:11,480 --> 02:13:15,120
no, we, we use original
punctuation.

2178
02:13:15,560 --> 02:13:19,160
So I did the entire Doctrine of
Covenants and Book of Mormon

2179
02:13:19,560 --> 02:13:23,760
with original punctuation and
but I showed several places

2180
02:13:23,760 --> 02:13:27,640
where the punctuation was
really, really bad, ambiguous,

2181
02:13:27,720 --> 02:13:32,480
and clearly changed the meaning
in some instances to be really

2182
02:13:32,480 --> 02:13:35,680
egregious to to something that
Joseph clearly would not

2183
02:13:36,600 --> 02:13:38,960
support.
And frankly, that doesn't mean

2184
02:13:38,960 --> 02:13:41,840
anybody would read it that way
because a lot of people just

2185
02:13:41,840 --> 02:13:43,960
ignore punctuation in the 1st
place.

2186
02:13:44,320 --> 02:13:47,160
But if you understand
punctuation, it was, it was

2187
02:13:47,160 --> 02:13:50,280
clearly contradicting itself in,
in a few instances.

2188
02:13:50,920 --> 02:13:53,520
And there were examples that I
brought to the table that were

2189
02:13:53,520 --> 02:13:55,560
egregious enough.
Everybody said, you're right,

2190
02:13:55,560 --> 02:13:59,040
let's do that.
And I, I bring that correction

2191
02:13:59,040 --> 02:14:03,840
to the table because it took me
two months to go back and make

2192
02:14:03,840 --> 02:14:06,720
those changes.
When you're in the middle of the

2193
02:14:06,720 --> 02:14:09,760
project, it's easier to change
punctuation as you go because

2194
02:14:09,760 --> 02:14:12,840
you're really looking at the
meaning and, and this change

2195
02:14:12,840 --> 02:14:15,200
that change talsize this versus
number goes here.

2196
02:14:15,560 --> 02:14:20,320
You, you have to slow down.
And so when you're there, it's

2197
02:14:20,320 --> 02:14:23,400
easy to change the punctuation
going back and doing it after

2198
02:14:23,400 --> 02:14:30,080
the fact, very tedious.
So, so that's the, the, the axe

2199
02:14:30,080 --> 02:14:31,880
forgets the tree.
Remember situation there.

2200
02:14:33,280 --> 02:14:35,520
But that was never contentious
at all.

2201
02:14:35,520 --> 02:14:38,320
I was just like, OK, I, I
disagree, but that's what we'll

2202
02:14:38,320 --> 02:14:42,160
do.
And I, I see some people

2203
02:14:42,160 --> 02:14:44,280
preferring one way and some
people preferring the other.

2204
02:14:45,120 --> 02:14:50,720
I I prefer whatever offers
people the original intention.

2205
02:14:50,840 --> 02:14:54,320
And since the punctuation was
not done by Joseph, we don't

2206
02:14:54,320 --> 02:14:58,880
even understand honestly what
punctuation they intended with

2207
02:14:58,880 --> 02:15:04,080
what they used because they were
not any of them a doctoral, you

2208
02:15:04,080 --> 02:15:07,920
know, English major, which we
could at least go back and say

2209
02:15:07,920 --> 02:15:10,840
at the time they were teaching
doctoral English majors these

2210
02:15:10,840 --> 02:15:13,600
set of rules.
We had a printer, we've got a

2211
02:15:13,600 --> 02:15:16,840
committee of like 6 people in
Oliver, Calgary.

2212
02:15:16,840 --> 02:15:19,640
And all of them had different
ideas, changed each other's

2213
02:15:19,640 --> 02:15:26,920
punctuations from time to time.
So, so at any rate, going back

2214
02:15:26,920 --> 02:15:33,040
on a broader base level, I think
if you were going to say what

2215
02:15:33,040 --> 02:15:38,000
was everybody's participation
and what's their function, I

2216
02:15:38,000 --> 02:15:39,800
think all of us had the same
vision.

2217
02:15:40,120 --> 02:15:43,680
We want to produce an original
version of Joseph's scriptures

2218
02:15:43,760 --> 02:15:46,080
as he would have approved them,
as he did approve them.

2219
02:15:47,400 --> 02:15:50,320
What does that look like?
Is that a 1840 lithographic

2220
02:15:50,320 --> 02:15:54,560
reprint without verses?
Is that a 1830 lithograph

2221
02:15:54,560 --> 02:16:00,600
reprint without verses?
Do we OCR that and add verses?

2222
02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:02,880
Do we keep a paragraph or keep
the same paragraphs?

2223
02:16:03,360 --> 02:16:06,480
Those were the questions we all
talked about and is a committee

2224
02:16:06,480 --> 02:16:09,400
for.
We discussed all of those

2225
02:16:09,400 --> 02:16:13,880
decisions.
To my knowledge, we've either

2226
02:16:13,880 --> 02:16:16,760
and or both discussed today and
previous times when I talked

2227
02:16:16,760 --> 02:16:22,280
about the JSV, there's I don't
think any decision that that we

2228
02:16:22,280 --> 02:16:24,560
haven't covered some of the
decisions.

2229
02:16:24,560 --> 02:16:27,440
Decisions were, for instance,
we're only going to use Joseph's

2230
02:16:27,440 --> 02:16:31,080
unpublished revelations.
I finished the entire project.

2231
02:16:31,280 --> 02:16:33,559
Everybody said that's the case,
that's what we're going to do.

2232
02:16:34,200 --> 02:16:36,639
And then they said, you know
what, let's put the other ones

2233
02:16:36,639 --> 02:16:39,520
in there too.
All right, give me a couple

2234
02:16:39,520 --> 02:16:42,639
months.
And then they also said, you

2235
02:16:42,639 --> 02:16:44,799
know, it'd be nice to have some
historical introductions,

2236
02:16:44,840 --> 02:16:49,680
headings to the DNCI didn't do
any of that because that was

2237
02:16:49,680 --> 02:16:52,920
just not part of the project.
But now I'm trying to do that

2238
02:16:52,920 --> 02:16:56,080
before a deadline.
That's what I'm working on on

2239
02:16:56,080 --> 02:16:58,559
the side.
So I'm, I'm, I'm not being lazy

2240
02:16:58,559 --> 02:17:04,160
if anybody's worried about that.
So, so if you want to say nuts

2241
02:17:04,160 --> 02:17:08,200
and bolts, Kevin did did not do
any revisions.

2242
02:17:08,600 --> 02:17:12,080
We consulted him on every
decision in every corner as we

2243
02:17:12,080 --> 02:17:15,559
were just discussing and he's
doing making all the decisions

2244
02:17:15,559 --> 02:17:19,920
for printing.
So if, if he says 6 by 9, we're

2245
02:17:19,920 --> 02:17:21,879
doing 6 by 9.
If he says sum by 10, we're

2246
02:17:21,879 --> 02:17:24,600
doing sum by 10, which by the
way, we're doing 6 by 9.

2247
02:17:25,840 --> 02:17:29,760
But you know, who's, who are we
going to use and why That's his,

2248
02:17:29,840 --> 02:17:34,000
that's his input, input, input.
And that's what we're going

2249
02:17:34,000 --> 02:17:38,080
with.
All four of us talked about how

2250
02:17:38,080 --> 02:17:39,799
we were going to approach it
globally.

2251
02:17:39,799 --> 02:17:45,719
As we've discussed today, Josh
is Josh.

2252
02:17:45,719 --> 02:17:51,080
Sorry, I keep saying Josh,
because anyway, don't mean to be

2253
02:17:51,080 --> 02:17:56,000
disrespectful, but Joshua sent
me edits, you know, a couple of

2254
02:17:56,000 --> 02:17:58,200
punctuation things.
And do we really want to include

2255
02:17:58,200 --> 02:17:59,840
this?
This wasn't Joseph's change.

2256
02:18:00,320 --> 02:18:03,160
It's a 1828 dictionary.
Should we vote on this?

2257
02:18:03,600 --> 02:18:08,120
You know, a couple things like
that, but you know, he read

2258
02:18:08,120 --> 02:18:11,160
through it and as an attorney,
I, I felt like it was really

2259
02:18:11,160 --> 02:18:13,200
helpful to have a fellow
attorney read through and

2260
02:18:13,400 --> 02:18:17,440
because we tend to be meticulous
with commas and crap or spelling

2261
02:18:17,440 --> 02:18:19,320
or whatever.
So he did that.

2262
02:18:19,879 --> 02:18:23,440
Michael went through and did the
same thing for editing.

2263
02:18:24,400 --> 02:18:29,600
But what Michael brought to the
table was about, I would say 7

2264
02:18:29,600 --> 02:18:36,719
to 800 suggestions to change my
footnotes and, and a lot of

2265
02:18:36,719 --> 02:18:39,240
those were really helpful.
He said, this is maybe too

2266
02:18:39,240 --> 02:18:42,280
obtuse for a teenager.
You're using big word here.

2267
02:18:42,280 --> 02:18:44,000
Let's we consider something
easier.

2268
02:18:45,120 --> 02:18:46,639
I didn't understand this
footnote.

2269
02:18:46,639 --> 02:18:49,440
It was unclear to me which
manuscript you were talking

2270
02:18:49,440 --> 02:18:51,959
about.
Can you clarify stuff like that?

2271
02:18:52,400 --> 02:18:57,000
And so I went through and I
spent about two weeks, I think,

2272
02:18:58,160 --> 02:19:01,080
reading each of his footnote
suggestions, thoughts,

2273
02:19:01,559 --> 02:19:05,040
responding to them and saying
here's here's why I'm not going

2274
02:19:05,040 --> 02:19:07,520
to change that because that
makes it inaccurate or

2275
02:19:08,160 --> 02:19:11,040
clarified, which most of the
time I just chose clarified.

2276
02:19:11,400 --> 02:19:15,440
There are a few instances when
he misunderstood the footnote

2277
02:19:15,959 --> 02:19:18,400
and wanted me to change
something to make it would have

2278
02:19:18,400 --> 02:19:21,000
been inaccurate.
So I just clarified it to be

2279
02:19:21,000 --> 02:19:23,840
accurate and said I'm not going
to change it like you said, and

2280
02:19:23,840 --> 02:19:25,840
here's why.
And he is happy with all of

2281
02:19:25,840 --> 02:19:30,360
those.
So as far as the text goes,

2282
02:19:30,920 --> 02:19:32,840
that's the contribution of
everybody.

2283
02:19:33,680 --> 02:19:37,000
Also Michael's in charge of
marketing website that sort of

2284
02:19:37,000 --> 02:19:40,120
stuff.
And then you know, financial

2285
02:19:40,120 --> 02:19:44,719
contributions were a big part
of, of what those guys were

2286
02:19:44,719 --> 02:19:48,720
doing as well.
And I've, it's been my hands on

2287
02:19:48,720 --> 02:19:54,000
the text almost exclusively.
And in no place has there been

2288
02:19:54,000 --> 02:19:57,920
any argument ever.
I think you, you got to change

2289
02:19:57,920 --> 02:19:59,520
this footnote.
No, I don't want to change it.

2290
02:19:59,840 --> 02:20:04,280
Let's take it to the committee.
It's, it's really been, this is

2291
02:20:04,280 --> 02:20:07,600
just a suggestion or I'm pretty
sure this is a typo.

2292
02:20:07,600 --> 02:20:10,920
Can double check and that sort
of thing.

2293
02:20:11,840 --> 02:20:19,280
I I will make one closing
comment to that because as we're

2294
02:20:19,280 --> 02:20:23,000
doing all of this together, I
had a really big conflict.

2295
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:26,560
That I had to deal with that I,
I didn't really share.

2296
02:20:27,960 --> 02:20:31,160
I might have mentioned it to
Michael and that's on the web

2297
02:20:31,160 --> 02:20:35,280
page.
He, he says this is by far the

2298
02:20:35,280 --> 02:20:37,680
best triple combination that's
ever been produced.

2299
02:20:38,920 --> 02:20:42,760
And, and then he also talks
about being the most transparent

2300
02:20:43,240 --> 02:20:45,080
work that's ever been done on
the scriptures.

2301
02:20:46,000 --> 02:20:49,040
And at any rate, I thought that
was embarrassing.

2302
02:20:51,360 --> 02:20:55,960
And I asked myself, could I
possibly market this as if I

2303
02:20:55,960 --> 02:21:00,600
wrote that personally, because I
was asked to make a flyer for a,

2304
02:21:00,640 --> 02:21:05,960
a local group.
And I took his words to as as

2305
02:21:05,960 --> 02:21:08,840
the foundation for that flyer.
And I was like, oh, shoot.

2306
02:21:09,120 --> 02:21:12,960
And these people know me too.
What do I, what do I put that,

2307
02:21:12,960 --> 02:21:15,280
you know, So I had to think
about that a lot.

2308
02:21:16,800 --> 02:21:22,520
And I, I have to say that even
though I found it embarrassing,

2309
02:21:22,520 --> 02:21:24,560
I, I 100% agree with that
sentiment.

2310
02:21:24,560 --> 02:21:27,320
I don't think there's another
triple combination anywhere

2311
02:21:27,600 --> 02:21:32,600
that's near as good that
provides the light and knowledge

2312
02:21:33,120 --> 02:21:38,120
or that provides the clarity of
format while also preserving the

2313
02:21:38,120 --> 02:21:40,920
original text.
It doesn't exist.

2314
02:21:42,240 --> 02:21:44,640
I, I think we're, we're using
beautiful fonts.

2315
02:21:45,160 --> 02:21:48,800
I would have loved if we had
another $10,000 to hire somebody

2316
02:21:49,400 --> 02:21:54,120
to create a font special for
this version and then format the

2317
02:21:54,120 --> 02:21:56,720
entire thing with some
beautiful, you know,

2318
02:21:57,680 --> 02:22:01,040
illustrations on the side or
sorry, that's what the early

2319
02:22:01,040 --> 02:22:03,400
people call it, just that, that
some, you know, some nice

2320
02:22:03,400 --> 02:22:07,800
borders or some colors.
So we don't have that.

2321
02:22:08,600 --> 02:22:12,440
But if you're just looking at
the text, it's easy to read,

2322
02:22:12,440 --> 02:22:18,080
it's clean, the formatting is,
is easy to follow, and it's

2323
02:22:18,080 --> 02:22:21,560
Joseph's original text with
Joseph's changes annotated.

2324
02:22:22,320 --> 02:22:27,040
And to me, nothing comes close
to to even comparing.

2325
02:22:27,520 --> 02:22:30,760
There's nothing else out there
that I, I will ever use again

2326
02:22:31,560 --> 02:22:33,080
besides the set, the set of
work.

2327
02:22:33,080 --> 02:22:35,480
So even though I originally
thought it was kind of

2328
02:22:35,480 --> 02:22:38,880
embarrassing to say it that way,
I thought it, it really is true.

2329
02:22:38,880 --> 02:22:45,400
If those are your values, if you
want Joseph is the restored

2330
02:22:45,400 --> 02:22:49,160
prophet in his words.
And that's and that's not saying

2331
02:22:49,160 --> 02:22:53,120
Orson Pratt didn't make a good
change in 1879 somewhere maybe

2332
02:22:53,160 --> 02:22:56,440
he did.
But if you want Joseph's words

2333
02:22:56,480 --> 02:22:59,600
and you want it easy to read in
the format he was producing,

2334
02:22:59,880 --> 02:23:03,120
with the language he produced,
there's there's nothing better.

2335
02:23:03,120 --> 02:23:04,280
You're just not going to find
it.

2336
02:23:05,600 --> 02:23:08,320
Awesome, Josh.
Yeah.

2337
02:23:08,320 --> 02:23:12,840
I just, I, I want to, I want to
kind of back up the sentiment

2338
02:23:12,840 --> 02:23:17,120
that we're saying you are going
to read a lot of commentary and

2339
02:23:17,120 --> 02:23:19,280
a lot of annotations.
I've said this at least four

2340
02:23:19,280 --> 02:23:21,600
times.
I just want to want to close my,

2341
02:23:22,200 --> 02:23:25,640
my kind of not my argument, but
my sales pitch.

2342
02:23:26,240 --> 02:23:29,960
I was the one in the group
probably next to Michael.

2343
02:23:29,960 --> 02:23:33,120
That was, well, that was me
saying we don't need this.

2344
02:23:33,480 --> 02:23:37,240
And I changed that because you
do you, you're going to read a

2345
02:23:37,240 --> 02:23:40,000
lot of commentary and a lot of
annotations and the rest of it

2346
02:23:40,280 --> 02:23:43,360
for the, the, the dropping of
the book or the opening of the

2347
02:23:43,360 --> 02:23:45,720
book or the the giving of the
restored version.

2348
02:23:46,120 --> 02:23:49,240
You're going to see that it's
going to help you to have that.

2349
02:23:49,240 --> 02:23:50,760
It's not going to get in the
way.

2350
02:23:50,960 --> 02:23:55,640
It'll buttress that if we have
our way or if I have any sway at

2351
02:23:55,640 --> 02:23:58,600
all.
Some later print will have less

2352
02:23:58,600 --> 02:24:01,520
annotations.
Once it's a once the trusting

2353
02:24:02,320 --> 02:24:04,840
once people begin to trust this
restored version.

2354
02:24:05,200 --> 02:24:10,000
But everything he said is true.
I lost myself for the first time

2355
02:24:10,000 --> 02:24:12,880
in the Book of Mormon.
When I say lost myself, I could

2356
02:24:12,880 --> 02:24:16,440
read as though not.
I don't like using the word

2357
02:24:16,440 --> 02:24:19,760
novel.
I could flow the ideas so

2358
02:24:19,760 --> 02:24:25,480
coherently as to just as to just
drink in the Book of Mormon.

2359
02:24:25,480 --> 02:24:29,720
It's, it's a, it's a, it's a,
it's, it's a beautiful feeling.

2360
02:24:30,240 --> 02:24:33,400
The Doctrine and Covenants, they
just open up in it and the

2361
02:24:33,400 --> 02:24:36,400
doctrines expose them cells,
especially in light of the

2362
02:24:36,400 --> 02:24:40,960
additional revelations and the
annotations that, that clarify a

2363
02:24:40,960 --> 02:24:43,240
lot of these things.
It's going to be a work that

2364
02:24:43,240 --> 02:24:46,800
you're going to want.
And if you're like me and you

2365
02:24:46,800 --> 02:24:51,600
can wait a year or two, we can
get you a, a version that won't

2366
02:24:51,600 --> 02:24:54,160
have the annotations, but you're
going to want this, you're going

2367
02:24:54,160 --> 02:24:57,080
to want this one so that you can
learn to trust it.

2368
02:24:57,080 --> 02:24:58,760
And when you do, I think you
will.

2369
02:24:58,760 --> 02:25:03,560
And, and so I guess I, I'm
saying I trust Drew, but I think

2370
02:25:03,560 --> 02:25:06,960
Drew and I both trying to tell
you that we trust Joseph Smith

2371
02:25:07,520 --> 02:25:11,160
as our dispensation lead as the
prophet of the restoration.

2372
02:25:11,440 --> 02:25:14,000
And I think you will too through
this restored version.

2373
02:25:14,080 --> 02:25:16,120
That's that's the pitch we're
making got.

2374
02:25:17,640 --> 02:25:21,840
You all right, before we move on
to tell folks where to, where to

2375
02:25:21,840 --> 02:25:24,480
pick this up, We've kind of been
over the process of how it's

2376
02:25:24,480 --> 02:25:29,520
come together and then the the,
the format as far as how you

2377
02:25:29,520 --> 02:25:33,080
got, how the, how the committee
worked together on this.

2378
02:25:33,840 --> 02:25:36,680
Is there anything else you want
to mention before we go on to to

2379
02:25:36,720 --> 02:25:41,120
to where people can find it?
Yeah, I've, I've had some people

2380
02:25:41,120 --> 02:25:43,880
ask me, you know, what's the
difference between the GSV and

2381
02:25:43,880 --> 02:25:45,840
the RV?
Because I did publish the Book

2382
02:25:45,840 --> 02:25:49,000
of Mormon GSV or the DNC last
year.

2383
02:25:50,800 --> 02:25:55,160
We as a committee talked about
that a little bit and said, you

2384
02:25:55,160 --> 02:26:00,880
know, we are creating the
scripture bound version of this.

2385
02:26:01,720 --> 02:26:05,200
If people want a paperback
version because it's cheap and

2386
02:26:05,200 --> 02:26:07,240
that's what they're going to buy
for their 8 year old kid who

2387
02:26:07,240 --> 02:26:11,520
hasn't proven themselves to be
good steward yet, they'll they

2388
02:26:11,520 --> 02:26:15,200
can buy Drew's version.
And I had a bunch of people

2389
02:26:15,200 --> 02:26:18,600
request at least on a temporary
basis, hardback version, which I

2390
02:26:18,600 --> 02:26:22,080
may or may not just pull once
this is available.

2391
02:26:23,440 --> 02:26:26,400
But the, the, the main question
people said, is there a

2392
02:26:26,400 --> 02:26:29,480
difference between that that's
been published as a paperback

2393
02:26:29,560 --> 02:26:33,480
already versus what's going to
be published is the RV.

2394
02:26:34,240 --> 02:26:38,640
And the answer is almost nothing
changes to footnotes to make

2395
02:26:38,640 --> 02:26:41,080
them clarified.
As I mentioned earlier, those

2396
02:26:41,080 --> 02:26:45,640
will be there and the
introductory material in those

2397
02:26:45,800 --> 02:26:48,560
books is going to be
appendicized in the very back.

2398
02:26:49,480 --> 02:26:52,720
And I I honestly for for triple,
I think that's a great change.

2399
02:26:53,080 --> 02:26:55,200
Makes a lot of sense for the
individual books that didn't

2400
02:26:55,200 --> 02:27:00,120
make as much sense.
So that those are the the main

2401
02:27:00,120 --> 02:27:02,240
differences.
Text formatting, pretty much

2402
02:27:02,320 --> 02:27:04,440
everything's identical.
If you want to see like what are

2403
02:27:04,440 --> 02:27:09,280
the guts look like, you can look
on Amazon and see that we also

2404
02:27:09,280 --> 02:27:12,480
have some of that stuff on
restored scriptures from each

2405
02:27:12,480 --> 02:27:16,800
one at any rate.
So that's an addition.

2406
02:27:16,800 --> 02:27:20,000
And there's also a request to do
an appendix that I'm or an index

2407
02:27:20,760 --> 02:27:23,160
that I'm hoping to have done as
well.

2408
02:27:23,160 --> 02:27:27,720
So those are the differences and
and most people I think don't

2409
02:27:27,720 --> 02:27:29,840
care aren't really looking at
that frankly.

2410
02:27:30,040 --> 02:27:33,280
The virtually no volumes of have
flown off the shelves.

2411
02:27:33,280 --> 02:27:36,960
I haven't advertised it at all
just so there's just a few of

2412
02:27:36,960 --> 02:27:38,760
those here and there.
But for those who have been

2413
02:27:38,760 --> 02:27:40,680
asking, those are the
differences.

2414
02:27:48,240 --> 02:27:52,760
Yeah, I think that's it.
And one more very small item I

2415
02:27:52,760 --> 02:27:55,160
mentioned I'm doing an index for
the triple.

2416
02:27:56,320 --> 02:28:01,560
I don't have the manpower to
have cross references for C

2417
02:28:01,880 --> 02:28:07,520
first Nephi 32, that's what's
you know, that's that's the

2418
02:28:07,520 --> 02:28:09,760
cross reference.
The index is going to be on page

2419
02:28:09,760 --> 02:28:12,280
47.
Right.

2420
02:28:12,800 --> 02:28:15,560
It's not going to give a first
number because that that takes a

2421
02:28:15,560 --> 02:28:20,240
committee and a lot of manpower.
Also, just one clarification.

2422
02:28:20,240 --> 02:28:25,000
This is a minor small thing, but
Josh said Joshua said two things

2423
02:28:25,000 --> 02:28:28,760
that are important to keep in
context. 1, he lost track of

2424
02:28:28,760 --> 02:28:31,800
time when he was reading and 2,
immediately when you start

2425
02:28:31,800 --> 02:28:34,080
reading, you'll see the
annotations In the Book of

2426
02:28:34,080 --> 02:28:36,400
Mormon.
There are two footnotes until

2427
02:28:36,400 --> 02:28:39,880
chapter 8.
So it shows what he's reading.

2428
02:28:39,880 --> 02:28:42,320
He got he got sucked into it
really fast.

2429
02:28:42,520 --> 02:28:45,480
And then there's quite a few for
a while and they back off after

2430
02:28:45,480 --> 02:28:48,440
a while.
But you know, the, the division

2431
02:28:48,440 --> 02:28:51,760
of the tree of life, there's a
number of changes in there that

2432
02:28:51,760 --> 02:28:54,600
are substantive too, like Fred
Collier originally noted back in

2433
02:28:54,600 --> 02:28:58,000
the 80s and that I mentioned
earlier today too.

2434
02:28:58,520 --> 02:29:02,280
So if, if you're expecting a lot
of annotations immediately

2435
02:29:02,280 --> 02:29:04,640
there, there's, there's not
really very many until about

2436
02:29:04,640 --> 02:29:07,320
chapter 8.
And also, I think there are less

2437
02:29:07,320 --> 02:29:10,440
than I think I want to say
there's 67 or 81.

2438
02:29:11,040 --> 02:29:13,600
So whatever it is, somewhere
around 80 in the entire Book of

2439
02:29:13,600 --> 02:29:18,000
Mormon as opposed to something
like 900 in the DNC.

2440
02:29:20,560 --> 02:29:23,920
Yeah, that's, that's a that that
is a lot different.

2441
02:29:24,400 --> 02:29:26,560
Yeah.
Holy cow.

2442
02:29:27,360 --> 02:29:30,040
Well, awesome.
All right, so I guess we're on

2443
02:29:30,040 --> 02:29:32,200
to the big question.
Where do people go to find this?

2444
02:29:34,600 --> 02:29:39,440
You want to take that, Joshua?
Sure. restoredscriptures.com,

2445
02:29:42,160 --> 02:29:44,720
Open that up.
You're going to see a website

2446
02:29:44,720 --> 02:29:47,080
where you can order.
It's going to have down at the

2447
02:29:47,080 --> 02:29:51,200
bottom.
It'll have a Oh, where is it at?

2448
02:29:53,240 --> 02:29:56,680
PDF Preview.
PDF previews down there, Sample

2449
02:29:56,680 --> 02:30:01,400
context contents Third knee by
12 lectures on faith DNC one.

2450
02:30:01,720 --> 02:30:04,320
We have an uncanonized
revelation.

2451
02:30:04,320 --> 02:30:07,760
We have Abraham one in there.
Just that it'll flip through.

2452
02:30:08,040 --> 02:30:11,640
You make little noises like it's
switching the page, but that's

2453
02:30:11,640 --> 02:30:15,160
what you're going to get.
This is going to be done in,

2454
02:30:15,240 --> 02:30:19,960
well, they've got a 360 RV
design down there done, I

2455
02:30:19,960 --> 02:30:24,200
believe in taupe or Gray.
I'm colorblind, but it has the

2456
02:30:24,200 --> 02:30:26,000
gold embossing in the gilded
edges.

2457
02:30:26,000 --> 02:30:30,160
So you can press play on that in
the screen and it'll do a 360

2458
02:30:30,160 --> 02:30:32,120
for you.
So that's pretty much what

2459
02:30:32,120 --> 02:30:36,200
you're going to get.
And that's the RV version.

2460
02:30:36,200 --> 02:30:37,920
That's our triple.
That's the triple that we're

2461
02:30:37,920 --> 02:30:41,960
offering to you and love to get
these into everybody's hands,

2462
02:30:41,960 --> 02:30:44,760
get a good idea of what they
think and feel about this.

2463
02:30:45,200 --> 02:30:47,600
But I, I mean it, just reading
the Book of Mormon alone has

2464
02:30:47,600 --> 02:30:52,480
been a joy and the understanding
and the expansion of what you

2465
02:30:52,480 --> 02:30:59,640
called exalted doctrine in the
DNC has I mean it, it I, I read

2466
02:30:59,640 --> 02:31:03,560
through, I did the last fifty, I
edited the last fifty of the

2467
02:31:03,560 --> 02:31:08,000
regular canonized and I did the
entire uncanonized.

2468
02:31:08,520 --> 02:31:14,120
And there's been some, some
deep, profound changes in my, in

2469
02:31:14,120 --> 02:31:16,160
my faith because of it.
So it's helped.

2470
02:31:18,520 --> 02:31:19,800
Yeah.
Are they going to be available

2471
02:31:19,840 --> 02:31:22,760
for in print or is this just
electronic?

2472
02:31:23,480 --> 02:31:29,760
So yes, right now you can pre
sale order scripture version,

2473
02:31:29,760 --> 02:31:33,480
meaning faux leather bound.
And we decided faux leather over

2474
02:31:33,480 --> 02:31:37,320
leather because it doesn't rot,
it doesn't age and doesn't it

2475
02:31:37,320 --> 02:31:39,800
last longer and you can get some
really nice versions.

2476
02:31:40,440 --> 02:31:45,560
So you can order right now for
for it's 60 bucks, which I don't

2477
02:31:45,560 --> 02:31:48,520
even know how we got such an
amazing deal to do a triple for

2478
02:31:48,520 --> 02:31:51,800
60 bucks.
But I mean, I could, I could

2479
02:31:51,800 --> 02:31:54,320
barely get a hardbound from
Amazon at that price.

2480
02:31:55,000 --> 02:31:58,560
So I was really happy about that
because I've got at least nine

2481
02:31:58,560 --> 02:31:59,840
kids who are going to want to
copy.

2482
02:32:01,800 --> 02:32:04,280
So at any rate, that's what you
can order right now.

2483
02:32:04,320 --> 02:32:06,960
There will be multiple color
options later.

2484
02:32:06,960 --> 02:32:11,320
We will e-mail you later and
give you the chance to choose

2485
02:32:11,320 --> 02:32:12,920
what colors end up being
available.

2486
02:32:12,920 --> 02:32:15,640
We've got to do some final
minute negotiations there.

2487
02:32:16,080 --> 02:32:19,760
So you will just be ordering a
faux leather bound gilded edges,

2488
02:32:20,280 --> 02:32:24,120
beautiful nice, like the 360
thing you showed you or I was

2489
02:32:24,120 --> 02:32:25,760
mentioning.
That's what it's going to look

2490
02:32:25,760 --> 02:32:30,200
like.
So that said, if you order

2491
02:32:30,200 --> 02:32:33,600
pre-order right now, meaning
till it's over, which is

2492
02:32:33,600 --> 02:32:38,040
probably at least a month or so,
you we will give you a discount

2493
02:32:38,040 --> 02:32:39,880
code.
You can get an epub version for

2494
02:32:39,880 --> 02:32:44,400
free of each of the books.
So it you go to my site and you

2495
02:32:44,400 --> 02:32:47,360
have a discount code that gives
you 100% off so you can get a

2496
02:32:47,360 --> 02:32:50,680
Book of Mormon doctorate
covenant's program price and all

2497
02:32:50,680 --> 02:32:56,320
the appendices, separate epubs,
you can just read them like

2498
02:32:56,320 --> 02:32:57,280
that.
So you get a free digital

2499
02:32:57,280 --> 02:33:00,240
version.
If, and I don't know if

2500
02:33:00,240 --> 02:33:05,240
Michael's got this live on site
or not, but if you either one,

2501
02:33:05,240 --> 02:33:09,560
purchase enough copies or two,
refer enough people and they

2502
02:33:09,560 --> 02:33:13,320
buy, then we're also giving out
free Doctrine Covenant 76

2503
02:33:13,320 --> 02:33:18,920
annotated epub forgotten
teachings of Joseph Smith at the

2504
02:33:18,920 --> 02:33:22,760
1000 pages of, of teachings that
aren't in the TPGSI referred to

2505
02:33:22,760 --> 02:33:24,960
you earlier.
We're going to offer that in

2506
02:33:25,040 --> 02:33:29,240
epub for various gradations of,
of, of pre-orders.

2507
02:33:29,760 --> 02:33:33,720
This pre-order time right now is
super, super helpful for us.

2508
02:33:33,720 --> 02:33:36,680
It's, it's very expensive to, to
pre-order.

2509
02:33:37,160 --> 02:33:40,680
You're, you're talking like 20
grand to, to get a printer to do

2510
02:33:40,680 --> 02:33:43,480
it at a bulk price so that we
can offer it at these prices.

2511
02:33:44,240 --> 02:33:47,960
So the pre-order allows us to,
to not have to put all that

2512
02:33:47,960 --> 02:33:50,560
money up front.
So it's a super big help to do

2513
02:33:50,560 --> 02:33:53,520
pre-orders.
Now the quality, you can look

2514
02:33:53,520 --> 02:33:56,400
again on the website, see
exactly what you're going to be

2515
02:33:56,400 --> 02:33:59,080
getting on the in the guts for
part of it.

2516
02:33:59,640 --> 02:34:03,120
And also if you look on Amazon,
somebody's like, I want to read,

2517
02:34:03,640 --> 02:34:05,120
you know, and see what Messiah 2
says.

2518
02:34:05,120 --> 02:34:08,000
I want to see if Drew got this
particular change in there or

2519
02:34:08,000 --> 02:34:10,960
not.
In fact, I got interviewed by a

2520
02:34:10,960 --> 02:34:12,960
guy who does different versions
of the Book of Mormon.

2521
02:34:13,280 --> 02:34:14,840
That's all he does is podcast
that.

2522
02:34:15,640 --> 02:34:17,600
And so he was looking at
specific things like that.

2523
02:34:17,600 --> 02:34:21,120
If you want that, it's on
Amazon, you could probably check

2524
02:34:21,440 --> 02:34:24,920
and it's got a larger preview.
And if you're super curious,

2525
02:34:24,920 --> 02:34:27,040
just ask me.
I'll look at it for you and tell

2526
02:34:27,040 --> 02:34:31,440
you.
But but that's where you can see

2527
02:34:31,440 --> 02:34:33,240
exactly what you're getting,
what it looks like.

2528
02:34:34,280 --> 02:34:35,880
Sorry.
And one more thing that we did

2529
02:34:35,880 --> 02:34:40,320
not mention that's important for
some people is the Lectures on

2530
02:34:40,320 --> 02:34:42,160
Faith is part of the Doctrine
Covenants.

2531
02:34:42,400 --> 02:34:43,360
It was a.
Rich.

2532
02:34:43,480 --> 02:34:47,520
Way there we did not admit it.
That didn't happen till 1921 and

2533
02:34:47,520 --> 02:34:50,560
Hebrew J Grant took it out
because arguments about that was

2534
02:34:50,560 --> 02:34:52,840
teaching false doctrine about
the nature of the Holy Ghost.

2535
02:34:53,360 --> 02:34:58,720
I do annotate those passages or
footnote those and say this is a

2536
02:34:58,720 --> 02:35:01,160
passage you got taken out of the
original Doctrine Covenants

2537
02:35:01,440 --> 02:35:05,320
because the controversy at any
rate.

2538
02:35:05,320 --> 02:35:09,280
But also show contextually why
that may be misinterpreted and

2539
02:35:09,280 --> 02:35:11,680
shouldn't have been taken out in
the first place because it may

2540
02:35:11,680 --> 02:35:13,520
not be teaching what they
thought it was.

2541
02:35:14,160 --> 02:35:17,040
Again, Holy Ghost versus Holy
Spirit misunderstandings.

2542
02:35:17,520 --> 02:35:21,280
So interesting stuff there in
those footnotes as well.

2543
02:35:22,880 --> 02:35:26,800
And if anybody's questioning
about the colors, we're looking

2544
02:35:26,800 --> 02:35:29,440
at hoping for black, grey,
brown.

2545
02:35:30,800 --> 02:35:34,720
It's been talking about a cream,
but burgundy, green and blue are

2546
02:35:34,720 --> 02:35:36,600
the top color options.
We're hearing.

2547
02:35:37,120 --> 02:35:41,200
If anybody says everybody in my
group wants a pink one, we'll

2548
02:35:41,200 --> 02:35:42,720
probably add a pre-order of
pink.

2549
02:35:42,720 --> 02:35:45,240
If you could, you know if you
want to give us 100 copies or

2550
02:35:45,240 --> 02:35:47,000
100 orders that will definitely
do pink.

2551
02:35:48,600 --> 02:35:50,920
No, I like it.
So if someone was to order

2552
02:35:50,920 --> 02:35:53,880
pre-order today, how long before
they have a hot copy in their

2553
02:35:53,880 --> 02:35:57,080
hand?
Shoot, Michael knows that.

2554
02:35:57,080 --> 02:36:00,800
Do you know that, Josh Joshua, I
think it's a number of months.

2555
02:36:02,720 --> 02:36:06,880
We're, we're currently there,
there's, there's an, we're in

2556
02:36:06,880 --> 02:36:10,600
negotiations with two and I
think the outset was four

2557
02:36:10,600 --> 02:36:12,480
months.
And I believe the other one,

2558
02:36:12,480 --> 02:36:16,320
which is a very viable option is
a is a little bit shorter than

2559
02:36:16,320 --> 02:36:18,640
that.
I don't want to give, I'm giving

2560
02:36:18,640 --> 02:36:22,000
you out the the lengthy 1.
I don't know how quickly the

2561
02:36:22,000 --> 02:36:25,720
other one can get it to us, but
both of them are of similar high

2562
02:36:25,720 --> 02:36:28,000
quality.
That's what's what's most

2563
02:36:28,000 --> 02:36:31,360
important to us is that these
last a long time and that

2564
02:36:31,360 --> 02:36:35,400
they're valued in your home.
So we, we we'd insisted on all

2565
02:36:35,400 --> 02:36:39,320
the quotes using the same types
of products, Winters and company

2566
02:36:39,320 --> 02:36:41,080
faux leather that they're the
nice stuff.

2567
02:36:41,880 --> 02:36:42,560
So.
Yeah.

2568
02:36:42,680 --> 02:36:45,920
And which is also that delay is
part of the reason why we

2569
02:36:45,920 --> 02:36:49,280
decided to do the epub.
So you get that, have it in your

2570
02:36:49,280 --> 02:36:50,720
hands, you can look at it, read
it.

2571
02:36:51,200 --> 02:36:54,160
And we also know it's not
everybody's favorite, but it's,

2572
02:36:54,520 --> 02:36:57,760
it's a, it's a, you know, I can
at least have it now.

2573
02:36:58,520 --> 02:37:02,760
Yep, absolutely.
All right, Well, guys, good

2574
02:37:02,760 --> 02:37:05,520
stuff.
I, I'm excited to, to see this.

2575
02:37:05,520 --> 02:37:09,320
I think, I think this, this
could be an answer to, to a lot

2576
02:37:09,320 --> 02:37:12,520
of questions that I think people
have had for a while concerning

2577
02:37:13,240 --> 02:37:16,000
the, the state of our
scriptures, right where, where

2578
02:37:16,000 --> 02:37:19,040
the can, where the Canon sets
now that that sort of thing.

2579
02:37:19,040 --> 02:37:20,960
So I'm, I'm super excited for
this.

2580
02:37:21,840 --> 02:37:26,120
Drew man, your workhorse, bro.
I, I can't even imagine trying

2581
02:37:26,120 --> 02:37:29,520
to tackle that, that project.
So good on you.

2582
02:37:30,080 --> 02:37:33,880
Glad you're here.
Anything else you guys want to

2583
02:37:33,880 --> 02:37:37,640
add before we wrap it up?
Just appreciate you, David,

2584
02:37:37,640 --> 02:37:41,920
appreciate your podcast and what
you stand for and thankful to be

2585
02:37:41,920 --> 02:37:44,240
on here be able to talk to you
with Drew.

2586
02:37:44,480 --> 02:37:46,760
So thank you.
Awesome.

2587
02:37:46,760 --> 02:37:48,360
Yeah, likewise, I'm super
excited.

2588
02:37:48,360 --> 02:37:51,600
You got that website up and
running and and happening too.

2589
02:37:51,600 --> 02:37:55,520
I'm excited to see that expand
and include whatever products.

2590
02:37:55,520 --> 02:37:58,640
I, I, I know there have been
times we've been independent.

2591
02:37:58,640 --> 02:38:01,000
We're like, who do we talk to
that would know where to get

2592
02:38:01,000 --> 02:38:03,520
this stuff?
Right, right.

2593
02:38:03,520 --> 02:38:05,000
No, we're.
I'm trying to have that

2594
02:38:05,040 --> 02:38:06,600
available.
Yeah, I know.

2595
02:38:06,600 --> 02:38:09,920
I'm trying to, to get, get it so
people can just find it in one

2596
02:38:09,920 --> 02:38:12,120
spot instead of having to scour
the Internet.

2597
02:38:12,120 --> 02:38:16,760
So and and likewise, you know,
when that time comes, when you

2598
02:38:16,760 --> 02:38:19,280
guys are ready, let me know.
I'd love to throw a link up on

2599
02:38:19,280 --> 02:38:21,360
that side as well so folks can
find that.

2600
02:38:21,960 --> 02:38:25,520
But guys, I appreciate you.
I appreciate the work you put

2601
02:38:25,520 --> 02:38:26,840
in.
Hang out for 5 minutes, all

2602
02:38:26,840 --> 02:38:28,360
right.
Yeah, we'll do.

2603
02:38:28,480 --> 02:38:29,400
Thanks.
All right.

2604
02:38:29,880 --> 02:39:02,760
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2605
02:39:02,760 --> 02:39:04,160
Renegade podcast.