Aug. 9, 2025

Episode #196: A Conversation W/Steve Pynakker Host of Mormon Book Reviews

Show Notes
Transcript

On this episode I sit down and have a conversation with Steve Pynakker. Steve is the host of a podcast on youtube titled Mormon Book Reviews. Now Steve while is not a member of any Restoration group he is fascinated with the Restoration as revealed by Joseph Smith. Because he is able to maintain an observes view of Mormonism his insights into the various groups and churches makes for fascinating conversation. As we have our conversation we cover everything from the state of various Joseph Smith Restoration groups and churches to how he became fascinated with Joseph Smith & Mormonism.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast, Steve, how's

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it going?
I'm well, my friend and

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yourself.
Just busy, but that's good

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because they say that it's
supposed to keep you out of

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trouble.
Although it's not what I find

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right.
Usually the the busier I get,

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just the more hornet's nests I
seem to kick up.

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Right.
Yeah, there's, yeah, especially

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in this world.
It's a minefield in the podcast

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world and, you know, just trying
to be somebody who's trying to

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be fair to everybody and
unbiased.

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Still, sometimes things blow up
and you can't, you don't have

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any control over it.
And you just got to learn to put

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things in God's hands because
you can't do everything.

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So yeah, just this can be a
difficult space to be in.

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But it's a fun space to be in
though, right?

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Especially today, right?
Like I was, I was thinking about

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that like just a few days ago is
that I'm not sure we've seen

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this much movement out of
Mormonism in general, right

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across the board from, from kind
of the, the, the Brighamite

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branches on down to, to, you
know, the reorganized groups.

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I think there's just a lot
popping off and it always seems

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like it's something.
Yeah, that's, that's, that's

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true.
And I think that it seems like

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all the different restoration
groups that I'm encountering are

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doing things that are they are
anticipating things and they're

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doing things differently than
they had done in the past.

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For instance, you got the bigger
tonight's who up until 4-5 years

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ago, we're not engaging any of
the groups in the restoration.

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But then they received a word
from the Lord, a revelation

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saying they need to start
engaging other registration

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groups as well as other
Christian group, you know,

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outside of the restoration.
And then that kind of stem, you

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know, I come into their their
space, the very first

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restoration group that I ever
attend their service is there.

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And essentially that's kind of
happened with that group.

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And then you see the Snuffer
right movement who are in the

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stages of coming closer and
closer to building a temple.

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And I just remember asking
Denver, I said, Denver.

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I said, you know, if you guys
build your temple, should we

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start anticipating the return of
Christ?

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And he says, yeah.
And then you have your group in

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Missouri or Missouri, depending
on where you're at, which has

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done an unprecedented,
unprecedented thing in the

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fundamentalist world in which
you guys have built a temple and

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dedicated it for the service of
all those who believe in, in the

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principal or who believe in
Mormonism in general.

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And, and it's open to everyone.
And, and your group is unique

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that you don't have a one man
leader.

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It's, it's done by committee,
it's done by, it's a

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cooperative.
And you guys built a temple that

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looks like something that was
built by the Utah branch, by the

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Brighamite Church, but it
actually is built by your group

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and it's an impressive structure
that you have built.

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And it was all done by
volunteers and donations, much

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like the Kirtland Temple.
So it seems reflective of that.

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Then you have all this
interesting stuff going on in

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Independence, MO, where you have
a lot of people moving there

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from all different branches.
You have, you have a lot of

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cross pollination between my
world, the Pentecostal world and

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the charismatic world and the
restoration groups there in

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independence.
Because I always tell people, so

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what's so fascinating about
independence is that it's, it's

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the restoration right in the
middle of the in, in the right

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in the buckle, the belt buckle
of the Bible Belt, right?

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It's right there.
So you have this interesting

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convergence of people who are
not necessarily believers in the

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Restoration, but might be
believers in the Book of Mormon

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or, or, or, or accepting of
people who are believers in the

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Book of Mormon.
And so you have that kind of

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stuff happening.
So yes, I see.

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And being of somebody who's kind
of an outsider observing, I'm

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able to see all these different
moves happening.

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And I thought there's something
going on and I'm sure I could.

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Well look, the community of
Christ, they sold their all.

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They sold their birthright,
everything that made them unique

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in the sense that they were part
of the restoration.

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They have essentially, in my
mind, in some ways, have made a

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clean break with the restoration
and seem to be heading direction

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of just becoming a mainline
Protestant denomination.

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And who knows if 10 years from
now there will even be a church

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called the Community of Christ.
Perhaps they'll just merge with

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the United Methodist Church or
something like that.

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That's speculation on my part,
but it just seems to be like

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that, that they're just
unprecedented changes and moves

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have been happening.
We also know that a lot of

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things, interesting things have
happening with the main church,

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you know, the, the largest
church, the Church of Jesus

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Christ, Latter Day Saints.
It looks to me like that church

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is going through a transition.
Of course, they've made temple

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changes.
They have, they've been braced

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almost in one sense, Holy Week
for Easter in a way that wasn't

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before.
They've they've switched off the

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Moroni tag for their locations,
for their, for their, for their

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wards and chapels and to replace
it with a cross.

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So many things are happening
just in the last few years that

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are unprecedented, I think, for
most of these groups and very

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interesting.
You know, it, it's fascinating

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too, because as I watch this and
I watch all this play out, it,

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it, it seems to me like, like
the restoration as a whole is

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going through some things and
there's a reordering almost

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that's happening, right?
And everybody now is kind of, I

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don't want to say picking a
side, but maybe finding their

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niche, right?
And, and whatever it's going to

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look like.
And I can't help but wonder what

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it was that that really prompted
all of this, because it all

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comes about at roughly the same
time, right?

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And that's the other thing is
that it all comes about at the

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same time, which which is very
curious to look at.

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So, and, and let's not also, you
know, I'll be remiss to, to

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ignore this growing movement of
people who say that Joseph Smith

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did not practice polygamy,
monogamy, right?

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And that's become a thing.
I mean, just look at the, the,

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the, the Gospel typics essay.
It was just released this week.

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It was a direct response to that
movement.

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And you know what's so
fascinating, Dave, I think that

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a lot of this I, I, I, when I
talk to so many people just just

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entering into this space after
COVID, But I think everything

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seemed to really change for a
lot of people in 2020.

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And, and, and it was the IT was
the vaccine thing in which the

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church basically was saying you
need to get vaccinated and a lot

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of people pushed back.
And for the first time, you've

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had schism in the past, but
typically was from more

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progressive, you know, more
people would question the

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brethren, right?
It was more of a progressive

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left wing thing.
For the first time, you had

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people on the right, the more
orthodox TBM community starting

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to question the brethren.
And that's never happened

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before.
And that really opened up a can

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of worms.
And I'm telling you right now,

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there are a lot of people in the
ex Mormon community that will

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tell you and they won't tell you
publicly, but they'll tell me

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privately that what did it for
them was the vaccine thing.

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And that's what led them out of
the church.

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But they don't want to be
accused of being an anti vaxxer

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or something like that in that
in that community.

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So they don't bring that up.
But some of the biggest high

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profile people that have left
the church over the last few

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years, it was also the vaccine
thing that made them question

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things as well.
It caused them to say, I need to

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start looking into things like,
why?

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Why do I believe what I believe?
Why did?

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Why do I have all this faith in
the brethren?

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If they're telling me something
that I disagree with, how do I

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handle that?
And so people just had different

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conversations that they never
had before.

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So I think I think really that
was the impetus for a lot of

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people to kind of reassess what
they believe and what their

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relationship was with the
church.

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You know it, it's fascinating in
that in that regard too.

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And I agree with you as I think
this has been a slow build up,

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right?
I think I think this has been

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something that has been taken a
while to build up.

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And I think now we're at a
tipping point.

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And I think that it really
started about the time the

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Internet becomes ubiquitous,
right?

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Because I think for whether you
want to look at it as lies or

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whether you want to look at it
more as trying to condense the

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narrative.
The church for a while, the the

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the big Brighamite church was
able to shouldn't say Brighamite

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the the church, Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints.

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They were able to to pretty much
craft a narrative and because

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people didn't have access to the
vaults or, or, you know, they

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just didn't have time because
they were raising six kids and,

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you know, got their church
callings and jobs and all this,

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that history was largely
unavailable, right.

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You did have Gerald and Sandra
Tanner Tanner out there who

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were, were publishing some of
these older things, but they

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were instructed to stay away
from, from those folks because,

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you know, they they were anti
Mormon.

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Well, when the Internet comes
along, doesn't take long and it,

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we're, we're starting to get to
a point where there's no more

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secrets, right?
And so all these things that I

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think the, the LDS church took
for granted that they could just

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own the narrative on, well,
that's not the case anymore.

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And now, and, and so people
started to see that

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inconsistency and it just kept
building and building and

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building.
And you're right, in 2020, I

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think that was that was the
thing that set most of this in

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motion.
Because I think a couple things

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happened, right?
All the sudden, I think during

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the lockdown, I think there were
a lot of people that went, wait

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a second, maybe the LDS Church
does not have the monopoly on

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Mormonism.
Perhaps, perhaps this can be

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done in more than one way.
And I think that really was was

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kind of the undoing and all the
sudden the questions that nobody

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wanted to ask are is now public,
right?

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And, and I certainly saw that
when I first started the

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podcast.
Like I honestly thought that the

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podcast was predominantly for
fundamentalists.

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Well, that's not the case
anymore.

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Mine seems to be, you know, I
got a big healthy percentage

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that's that's active members of
the church and they're asking

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questions and they're unsettled.
And I don't think that's going

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away anytime soon.
I think the genie's out of the

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bottle on that.
You know, I, and to, to

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piggyback on what you're saying
is that I think that the rise of

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the, you know, the ubiquitous
information that's out there on

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the Internet would, has been
there for a while, But I'll,

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I'll relay a story to you.
I think what happened was during

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COVID, people had time to start
researching and looking at these

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things.
And a perfect example is

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actually right here is I was on
one of my trips to Utah on my

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way back.
I was sitting in the back row

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next to a Southwest Airlines
pilot.

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And and I probably told you the
story off camera, but until it

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on camera is this, this pilot
was sitting next to me.

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And I told him what I was I do.
And he said, yeah, I used to be

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a latter day St.
I'm like, OK.

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And he said, yeah.
Then COVID happened and I had a

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lot of time on my hands.
So I picked up the first volume

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of Saints and I read through it
and I I was out.

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He had been so exposed to such a
whitewashed history, very

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correlated history, that he
probably only knew about Mormon

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history based on what he was
hearing in his ward, that when

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he was exposed to some church
approved historical materials,

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it was enough to cause him to
question everything, have his

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shelf break and leave the
church.

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And I think the church
definitely recognizes this and

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realizes that we need to
inoculate people, especially the

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youth.
And and that's why I think

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that's part of the reason I was
invited to go on Saints

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00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,960
unscripted LDS youth channel.
It was kind of the church saying

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you can learn about the history
of your church from Steve's

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00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:44,760
channel to the LDS youth.
And so I think that they want

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00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,320
people to be exposed to
everything that's being talked

227
00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,800
about in Mormon stories.
I have many of the same guests

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00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,560
on Mormon stories that that you
know, that that a typical latter

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00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:56,840
day St. wouldn't watch, but
they'll watch it on my on my

230
00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:58,640
program.
And again, I'm not here to

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weaponize Mormon history against
any church, any movement.

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I just tell people as a ladder
saying it's your birthright to

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know the to know the history of
your church.

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00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,760
And I think that there's so many
great sources out there and to

235
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not know anything about all the
other branches of the

236
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,320
restoration that are really, I
think, important in many ways

237
00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:19,400
and have made contributions.
I'm trying to open up the

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dialogue so we can get all these
different branches and get

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00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,160
together.
And I will tell you that there

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are many people who have gotten
involved in other branches of

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00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,760
the restoration as a result of
being exposed to these ideas on

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my program.
And so that's, you know, what we

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try to do is just be, be a, a
safe space for everybody.

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00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,160
I'm respectful for where people
are at.

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00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,760
I don't try to proselytize.
I don't try to get people to go

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00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,080
into a church or leave a church.
I just want to be somebody that

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they can listen, that I will
listen to and, and hear their

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stories.
Sometimes they'll the story will

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00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:54,520
be told on my channel.
Often it will just be behind the

250
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,360
scenes.
And that's kind of the ministry

251
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,280
aspect of this too, because
there's a lot of people who,

252
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,240
when they're exposed to a lot of
things they hadn't heard before,

253
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,720
sometimes feel betrayed and
they're very hurt and they,

254
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,800
they, they need a place to go.
Like, you know, my shelf is

255
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,040
really heavy or my shelf is
broke or I don't even know if I

256
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,200
believe in God anymore.
And it's like, there's so much

257
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,120
of that stuff going on that I
feel like that's part of the

258
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,360
ministry here is to let people
say you don't have to throw the

259
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,880
baby out with the bathwater.
There's no institution really

260
00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,480
that can get in between you and
your relationship with the

261
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,240
Savior And that and that that's
really what's the most important

262
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,920
thing and how you choose to
worship God and what building

263
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,000
you go to on Sunday or Saturday
or whatever that's that's

264
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,640
between you and God.
And don't let anybody else get

265
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,680
in the way of that.
And so that's kind of the

266
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,120
approach that I take.
So I'm just judgement free on

267
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,080
people.
However somebody chooses to

268
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:50,480
encounter the divine is that's
their prerogative.

269
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,120
So like I'm friends with with
people like you who are

270
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,360
polygamous.
And then I'm, but I'm but an

271
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,680
hour from now maybe or a couple
hours from now, maybe I'm on the

272
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,160
phone with somebody who's part
of the polygamy, A firmer group,

273
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,160
right?
And, and, and, and both would

274
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,640
feel that they're being treated
fairly in, in this space.

275
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,160
And that's what I strive for
because I just want to listen

276
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,040
and I want to learn.
Oh, you're right.

277
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:15,560
And and.
You know that's.

278
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,040
That's the thing that got me
too, especially when I was

279
00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,920
about, when I was about two
years into this thing, I really

280
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,800
noticed that the tones of the
emails changed from the LDS side

281
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,800
of things.
Right when, when I first

282
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:35,800
started, it was more I, I think
for whatever reason, people felt

283
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,320
like, OK, I can probably talk to
this guy, right?

284
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:40,520
I, I need some answers on
things.

285
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,480
Well, I'll give you an example.
When I first started the

286
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,040
podcast, it was like weeks
before the series Under the

287
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:50,200
Banner of Heaven came out.
OK.

288
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,840
Right.
And then all of a sudden it pops

289
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,920
up on the scene and I'm, you
know, literally six weeks into

290
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,760
it and I'm like, uh, oh, I got
to, I got to contend with this.

291
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,240
And so I actually do an episode
on it.

292
00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,360
It was a good episode.
I felt like.

293
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:10,480
And I had a young couple reach
out to me from the LDS church.

294
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:16,960
The, the, the husband had served
a mission, went to BYU, found

295
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,880
his wife.
They got married.

296
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:24,400
They had two little kids.
And I had just gotten home from

297
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:29,640
a trip and I checked my e-mail
and he, this young father

298
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,520
basically just spills, you know,
says I don't know if I can be a

299
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:39,120
Mormon anymore, right?
And I was like, well, that let's

300
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,360
see what's going on.
And so I message him back and

301
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,800
then we have a phone call and he
basically says, I watched it

302
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,280
under the banner of heaven.
And I don't recognize that

303
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:52,320
gospel, right?
I don't recognize that

304
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,520
Mormonism.
And I said, OK, what's your,

305
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,040
what's your big, what's the one
that's hurting you the most

306
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,200
here?
And he said, well, it's blood

307
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,840
atonement.
I said, OK, let me go, let me go

308
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,680
dig up some records here, let me
look at some stuff and let me

309
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,359
get back with you.
So we, we got back, I got back

310
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,160
to him and I basically, you
know, found all the documents,

311
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,880
found all the instances I, I
could find where it was both

312
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,720
done kind of, Aspergam had said.
And then those who who took it

313
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,960
and ran with it without really
knowing what it was about, when

314
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,839
you break it all down, it's
essentially capital punishment

315
00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:33,320
inside of a theocracy, right?
And so as as we show this, he's

316
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,680
like, OK, OK, I think I think
I'm OK.

317
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,080
And he goes back to church and I
get an e-mail a few weeks later,

318
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:40,560
he says, hey, everything is
going great.

319
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,320
I appreciate your help.
And PS, my Bishop says thank you

320
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,920
too.
And that was that was kind of

321
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,440
it, right?
And so at the beginning it was a

322
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,760
lot of that like, I don't
understand this, I don't

323
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,520
recognize this.
Can you give me some documents

324
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,640
that can help me put this in the
framework of the restoration?

325
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:03,040
Then it went to like, what are
the brethren doing at the top

326
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:05,120
right?
Questioning anxiety.

327
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,120
And this last go round with the
1886 revelation.

328
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,600
People are pissed now because
you got the receipts right.

329
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,280
There's no doubt what happened.
You absolutely had the receipts

330
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,200
and that has caused people's,
the tones of the emails have

331
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,880
changed at this point.
And I'm I'm, I'm both nervous

332
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:35,640
and, and excited.
There's I, I think, I think the

333
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,520
ramifications of this are just
now beginning to to come out.

334
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:47,680
And I think the Oslo, of course,
you came on panel discussion

335
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,400
recently in which we talked
about the Heavenly Mother's

336
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,520
comment and you have the 1886
revelation being by the church,

337
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,960
which in the 1930s they were
saying it was a pretended

338
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,800
revelation.
Now in in the catalog, it says

339
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,360
1886 revelation of John Jeep or
John Taylor, right?

340
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,760
So now it's an acknowledgement
that, yes, he did have a

341
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,520
revelation about this being an
eternal principle.

342
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,880
And to me, it's almost like, you
know, if this is something, and

343
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,760
let's not beat around the Bush,
this was about polygamy, OK.

344
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,400
And then to be very explicit
about this, people understood

345
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,360
what this revelation at the time
was.

346
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,800
And so for people to be exposed
to these ideas, they would be,

347
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,960
some of them felt a conviction,
convicted to continue the

348
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,560
principle no matter what.
And then Anthony Ivins was in

349
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,240
the Mexican temple telling them
then no matter what happens

350
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:47,200
stateside, you know, you
continue this, you keep it

351
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:48,160
going.
OK.

352
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:54,440
So they had, you know, Apostolic
permission, if you will, or

353
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,200
commands to condemn.
Yeah.

354
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:04,000
And and to do this and.
And so to push the polygamist

355
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,200
and fundamentalist to the side
and make them out to be these

356
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,680
freaks.
When in many ways they were just

357
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:14,840
following the prophet and and
and and, and they were, they're

358
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,520
continuing with, with an eternal
principle and so.

359
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,960
Yeah, I, I think you're 100%
right.

360
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,440
And I think to go along with
that, it's not, I mean, the

361
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,360
revelation itself is about
plural marriage.

362
00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:30,320
There's no doubt, right, like
you were saying.

363
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,320
But what are really the
implications for today?

364
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:37,680
Why does it matter today?
Well, I think it has to do with

365
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,320
power, to be honest with you.
Because all of the sudden from

366
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:47,240
outside of the structure, well,
from inside the structure, you

367
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:55,760
now have the man at the top
essentially authorize and

368
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,720
Commission a group to operate
outside the church.

369
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,960
And when you do that, you have
now removed a portion of the

370
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:10,560
power that was centered in that
office, and it now is free on

371
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,400
the outside to do what it needs
to do.

372
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,920
And I think that's where I think
a lot of the rub comes in.

373
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,400
It's not necessarily about
plural marriage, right?

374
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,920
The validity of the doctrine
itself.

375
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,840
It's more about the power
structure and what this

376
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,640
revelation says about that
power.

377
00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,960
Yeah, that's that's that's an
interesting way to look at it.

378
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:38,400
And of course, we do see the
church evolve during this period

379
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,600
of time.
They become a corporation in the

380
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,840
1920s.
They, they enforced the Word of

381
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:45,920
Wisdom in the way that they
never had before.

382
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,560
You have, well, then around this
time, they then they removed the

383
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,960
lectures on faith from the
Canon.

384
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:58,720
So, so in many ways, you see
this church transitioning, going

385
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:04,040
in a different direction.
And then it really the becomes

386
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,520
formalized in many ways with
David O McKay, where he says,

387
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,200
OK, we're we're going to, we are
going to mainstream ourselves.

388
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,720
We're going to become Protestant
middle class church.

389
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,440
So guys, shave off your beards.
We're going to be presentable to

390
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:26,800
polite society and we're going
to take a lot of these kooky

391
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,680
doctrines, if you will, that are
being taught in, in, in various

392
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,120
words.
And we're going to basically

393
00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:36,040
correlate everything and just
kind of whitewash our history so

394
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:40,880
that it becomes more palatable
and acceptable to mainstream

395
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,080
Protestant America.
And so that's what happens.

396
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:49,320
And and so you have like a
further break from 19th century

397
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,200
Mormonism in the attempts to
become a 20th century church.

398
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,040
And it seems to be now even more
so in the 21st century.

399
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,680
You've seen this transition
where they want to become more

400
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,800
and more mainstream and shed a
lot of the baggage, if you will,

401
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,640
that how they would look at it.
That's keeping them from being

402
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,240
accepted by other Christian
groups.

403
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,880
And they'll say, hi, we're being
discriminated against because

404
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:15,520
we're Mormon and we're Christian
and we're this and that.

405
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,880
But then at the same time,
they're doing to you in many

406
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,720
ways much worse than anything
the evangelicals had done to the

407
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,280
Mormon church in the 21st
century, in the 20th and 21st

408
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,560
century.
And they, they treat you guys.

409
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,440
I mean, they were cracking down
on you guys in the 1950s,

410
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,840
dividing families.
You guys were the, the main

411
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,560
church was the most anti
polygamist group in the country.

412
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,600
And so they persecuted you guys
in a way that evangelicals never

413
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,920
did and saw on some level.
So it's so funny how on one hand

414
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,280
they want to be accepted by we
were over Christians just like

415
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,040
you.
And then they treat you guys so

416
00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:57,080
horribly in my mind and like
they're just embarrassed by the,

417
00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:58,480
the mere fact that you guys
exist.

418
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:01,760
And, and I will tell you, you
know, I, I had AI had a

419
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:03,640
conversation.
We've talked about this on the

420
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,080
phone where I was, I was talking
to an individual and I'm not

421
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:08,320
going to give too much
information here.

422
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,480
But recently I had a
conversation with an individual

423
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,640
who we were just talking and she
was asking me questions about my

424
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,560
podcast.
And she's just regular LDS, you

425
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:22,000
know, And we were talking and I
was and, and she said, yeah, I I

426
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,080
had a grandfather who's
practiced polygamy.

427
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,240
I'm like, oh, really?
And she said, yeah, an Angel

428
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,160
appeared to him, told him to
practice polygamy.

429
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,000
I'm like, huh.
I said that he's like, start a

430
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,240
group that he, you know, is he
is he known?

431
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,080
And she said, oh, yeah, he's
his.

432
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:39,160
Yeah.
She.

433
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:40,880
She says his name's Rulon
Allred.

434
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,480
I'm like, oh, wow.
And then she's like, but our

435
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,400
side of the family has nothing
to do with him.

436
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,680
And I was like, oh, that's
really interesting.

437
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,800
And then I told her, I said, you
know, I've had one of Rulon

438
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,440
Allard's granddaughters come on
my program and give a

439
00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:03,040
presentation about Rulon Allard.
And I'll tell you, let me tell

440
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,760
you, Rulon Allard was probably
one of the most ethical, decent,

441
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,720
moral men that I've ever
encountered within the

442
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,760
Restoration.
There was, nobody said one bad,

443
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,760
harsh word against him.
He was well regarded in the

444
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,240
community and every and he there
was no abuse going on in that

445
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:23,360
church when he was the prophets.
And I said, he's just like Ogden

446
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:25,440
Kraut.
I said, a real man of integrity

447
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,680
who I've really learned to
respect as a result.

448
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,240
And she looks at me and she
says, that's the first time I've

449
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,000
ever heard somebody say a nice
thing about my grandfather

450
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,520
isn't.
I'm so glad to hear this story.

451
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,600
And I thought to myself, how sad
that their family was torn apart

452
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,480
and they and, and and she never
got to know her grandfather and,

453
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,640
and find out that, yeah, he
actually was a pretty good guy.

454
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,920
And the demonization that was
going on about him was was not

455
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,040
true.
And she would, you could tell

456
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,640
she it touched her that she
realized that, Oh, my

457
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,480
grandfather wasn't the monster
that it was portrayed to me to

458
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,440
be.
Yeah, no, I, it's, it's

459
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,400
interesting.
And, and I've rehearsed a

460
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,760
similar story on, on my podcast
with an e-mail that I got very,

461
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,480
very similar name wasn't as
recognizable, but still pretty

462
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,640
much the same thing.
And that's, that's the sad part,

463
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,760
right?
Because there's sometimes where,

464
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,680
where I kind of have a holy envy
of Catholicism, right?

465
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:29,480
Because at least in Catholicism,
even though there's massive

466
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,760
disagreement, there's a whole
bunch of different orders,

467
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,120
there's a whole bunch of
different angles and that sort

468
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:37,400
of thing.
And they figured it out and they

469
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,000
made it work, right?
Sometimes I wonder if if we

470
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,080
couldn't have done that as a
people, right?

471
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,200
Just been like, OK, every
Friday, it's fun day Friday at

472
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:48,920
the temple, right?
And they're going to use this

473
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,120
liturgy.
And so if this offends you,

474
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:55,040
don't go there.
But it just didn't didn't break

475
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,080
that way.
But.

476
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,560
No, it is.
Oh, go ahead.

477
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,040
I sometimes I even told people,
I said, you know, you really

478
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,760
need to realize the, how
important it is to not try to go

479
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,880
so far in One Direction or the
other.

480
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,960
And I said, if you, if you
strictly just want to be

481
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,680
conservative and orthodox and,
and, and, and push out the

482
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,160
progressives or vice versa,
you're actually doing damage to

483
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,520
the church.
It, I like the idea of, of a

484
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:27,920
Catholic Church in which you can
be Gary Wills, who very is a

485
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,240
member of the Catholic Church,
but very, very critical.

486
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,800
And he wrote a book called Papal
Sin like 20 years ago.

487
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,640
He was never excommunicated from
the church and and he was coming

488
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,960
from a progressive Catholic
view.

489
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,080
And I thought that's what we
need more of that.

490
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,120
I think, I think this this need
to try to excommunicate and push

491
00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:48,800
out people with different views.
Is this actually a sign of

492
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,720
immaturity?
This used to be very prevalent

493
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:53,800
in Protestant churches too.
Even my mom growing up with the

494
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,560
Christian Reformed Church, it
wasn't uncommon for them to

495
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,800
announce who's been
excommunicated this week, right?

496
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,440
Kind of a similarly to what the
church was, has done, a lot of

497
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:03,960
churches have moved away from
that because they have

498
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,200
recognized that the process of
excommunication should be

499
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:12,000
extremely rare and in in just
very unique circumstances and

500
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,680
should not be applied a lot.
And it should be a very like

501
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,200
something of a last resort.
And so the Catholic Church still

502
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,800
does excommunicate people, but
you have to do something so bad

503
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,080
that that it just requires it.
And I would rather that be the

504
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,440
position because I think if
people are professors are afraid

505
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,240
of what they're going to say in
their classrooms at BYU, because

506
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,160
they could have a meeting with
their Bishop and they could lose

507
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,560
their temple Larka men and they
could therefore lose your their

508
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,880
job.
I think that's that's a little

509
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,480
too oppressive.
And I think and and and I think

510
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,480
ideas, especially on campuses,
ideas need to be put out there.

511
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,480
And even if the professor says
something that you might

512
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,880
disagree with, to rather have
that space where they can say

513
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,760
things like that rather than
look, I've had professors off

514
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,000
the record tell me I've had the
self censor what I say in my

515
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,120
classroom because I'm afraid
I'll get reported and that I

516
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,720
just don't like that.
I've I like pre exchange of

517
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,400
ideas.
I like the idea of having

518
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,800
challenge students and, and, and
if they can't do that anymore,

519
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,600
then I feel, I feel that the
institution is, is just going to

520
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,480
become another kind of like a
Liberty University or a Bob

521
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,760
Jones University where orthodoxy
is more important than anything.

522
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,520
I think orthodoxy is important,
but I also think having ideas to

523
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,800
kind of push back and challenge
students is also a necessary

524
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,440
place in a institution of higher
learning.

525
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,440
You know I I don't have a
problem with a private

526
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,880
university toeing a line, right?
That's their right.

527
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,600
That's their right to.
Yep, Yep, Yep.

528
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,480
And and so I don't necessarily
have a problem with that, but I

529
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:56,200
will say this, right, I do think
that it, it's somewhat defeats

530
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:59,240
the purpose of, of a university
experience, right?

531
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,920
I know I had AI, had a son and
this was when I was still in the

532
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,960
LDS church who wanted to go to
BYU.

533
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,560
And we talked about it and I
said, look, if you're going to,

534
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,120
if you're going to go, go to go
to college, right, You're going

535
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,920
to go to a major university, go
to go to the University of Utah,

536
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,360
go to go to, to, to, to Utah
State, go to a different

537
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,200
college.
And, and when we have the

538
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,480
discussion and he asked me why I
said this should be a time where

539
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,440
you're challenged on what you
believe, right?

540
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,480
And this, this is AI think it's
healthy from time to time to

541
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,720
have your back against the wall.
Not, not physically, of course,

542
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,640
not physical violence, but but
theologically speaking, have

543
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,960
your, have your back against the
law and, and be forced to defend

544
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,840
what it is you believe.
I don't think that there's any

545
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,040
damage in that.
And so I feel like the, that,

546
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,240
that BYU has every right to do
what they're doing, but I think

547
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,800
it, it's, it's not really doing
what we'd hoped.

548
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,760
So I, I, I think you can skirt
that line.

549
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,600
It's just a matter of finding
the balance.

550
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,280
I do think, I do think having
your beliefs challenged is, is

551
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,400
in general a good thing.
It forces you to re evaluate.

552
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:20,080
But so dude, you've, you've,
you've done quite a few podcasts

553
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,520
now, you've talked to a lot of
different people, but how'd you

554
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,960
find yourself in the space?
You're an evangelical, right?

555
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,480
Yeah, well, and I would say, you
know, a deconstructed 1.

556
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,040
You know why?
I went through a deconstruction

557
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,000
process myself.
I was an atheist for about 13

558
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,760
years.
And I've had a interesting

559
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,280
journey.
But one thing is I've just

560
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,640
always had a, a, a real interest
in, in, in general.

561
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,280
I've just always been like a
history buff.

562
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,640
I've also just really been
fascinated by religion in

563
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,040
general.
And so like for years you had it

564
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,720
every every few years there
would be this edition called The

565
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:01,480
Hand book of US denominations.
And it would be a, a book

566
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,080
detailing every single
denomination in the United

567
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,840
States.
And it would include a latter

568
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,560
day St. church and probably the
community of Christ.

569
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,200
I don't think much more than
those two.

570
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,040
And, and so I was able, I was
just, that would be my reading.

571
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,720
Would I just read about all
these different churches and I

572
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,240
and and and and, and I'd go
through and read and I could

573
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,960
never find a single church that
I could have like, OK, this is a

574
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,480
church that believes just what I
believe.

575
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,480
Like I was always looking for
that church, you know, So

576
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,480
actually as a result, even I
don't personally believe in

577
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:33,200
church membership.
So I've never been a member of a

578
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,920
church.
I've attended churches in church

579
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,160
services and I attended church
here in Sarasota.

580
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,960
But and actually my even to ask
my pastor, do you what what

581
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:44,600
about church members?
He's he's like, oh, we don't

582
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,040
believe in church membership.
I said, OK, good.

583
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,920
I think I found a home here, but
I've always been interested in

584
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,040
all these different religions.
And I for a while I, I, I kind

585
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,840
of studied a lot about the
Jehovah's Witnesses because I

586
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,440
had some ex Jehovah's Witness
friends that I used to hang out

587
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,840
with and studied that pretty
thoroughly.

588
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,920
And he even told me this is the
only way you could know more

589
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,480
about Jehovah's Witnesses is if
you were a member of yourself.

590
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,280
And in many ways probably knew
more than most Jehovah's

591
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,160
Witnesses because they were only
exposed to a slice of their

592
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,760
history as well.
And so I've, I've studied all

593
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,200
these different religions, but
it was in particular the Church

594
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,440
of Jesus Christ, Latter Day
Saints and the restoration in

595
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,640
general that kept pulling me
back in.

596
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,080
It was such a fascinating thing.
It's like this rabbit hole can't

597
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:28,920
look, I give me 15 minutes on
Scientology.

598
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,280
I can tell you right?
That's all I need.

599
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,640
But to know what Scientology is
really all about Mormonism,

600
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,520
you'll never ever have it
figured out.

601
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,560
You'll, once you think you've
got it figured out, some new bit

602
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,560
of information will come out
that is a paradigm shifter.

603
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,360
You know, I tell people, I said
there are addicts in

604
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,320
Independence, MO where there's
items in those attics that could

605
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:54,920
change the course of Mormon
history.

606
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,040
And I mean, I even had a Bishop
going to be said.

607
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,960
Why do you spend so much time
talking to these other groups?

608
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,880
Wake up, wake up 99%.
Why do you spend so much time

609
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,000
with these groups?
For that reason.

610
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:12,560
There's a for that reason, there
is that last year John Highchuck

611
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,320
came on my program.
He's a stray guy, one of those

612
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,040
small groups that I shouldn't be
paying attention to.

613
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,159
And I break the story through
with John Highcheck coming on my

614
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,719
platform, breaking one of the
biggest stories in history of

615
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:25,880
the restoration, the sail of the
Kirtland Temple.

616
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,800
I had to I I, I was the first
person to come out released

617
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,400
before anybody else had it out
there.

618
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,080
So that's why because I want it
I, I want the next thing big

619
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,120
story to come through MBR as
well.

620
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,639
Because of the relationships and
trust that I'm cultivating with

621
00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:44,920
these other groups.
I treat them with equal respect.

622
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,199
So like prophet Shiloh, I'm
going to treat him the same way

623
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,639
as I would a general authority
or I would with Matthew Gill or

624
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:55,880
with Denver Snuffer.
I, I don't, I'm, I feel like

625
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,000
everybody's making similar
claims to Joseph Smith and I

626
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,680
can't just go and say, well, I
accept this claim that Joseph's

627
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,600
made, but I'm not going to those
claims like, well, I'm going to

628
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,560
treat them the same.
And I'm going to treat like, I

629
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,960
can't interview, I can't
interview Joseph Smith, but I

630
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,360
can interview Matthew Gill, who
claims to have had plates and

631
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,400
the Urim and Thummim that he
translated with.

632
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,320
OK, well, let's talk about that.
You know, what was the

633
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,840
translation process like all
these kind of things.

634
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:23,920
That's, that's what interests me
is that there's so many

635
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,760
different voices and different
perspectives that we can, we can

636
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,440
get in here.
And all of them claim that their

637
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,440
church was founded on April 6th,
1830 and they are the true

638
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,000
successor of that church on some
level.

639
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,760
So Joseph.
So they all have that

640
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,000
commonality as well.
And I also think that the

641
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,400
beautiful thing about Mormon
history and I, I, I kind of like

642
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,400
to divvy it up.
The couple things, as I tell

643
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:52,440
people have said, you can kind
of see the what ifs of what

644
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,720
would have happened if our
church had this direction by

645
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,800
these different groups.
So the April I call the the

646
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,920
Church of Jesus Christ the
bicker tonight's are the April

647
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,160
6th 1830 church.
So I tell if you want to go to

648
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,600
an April 6th, 1830 service,
visit the bicker tonight's I say

649
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,400
the temple lot, Church of Christ
temple lot are the 1833 church.

650
00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:15,880
Why?
Because they have the book of

651
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:17,280
commandments in the Book of
Mormon.

652
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,680
And of course the bigger tonight
they just have the Bible in the

653
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:20,960
Book of Mormon.
OK.

654
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,720
And then if you want to see an
1836 church, you could look at

655
00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:28,880
the RLDS Trinity.
Basically Joseph Smith the third

656
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,880
said when he was reorganizing
the church said, OK, we have

657
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,560
disagreements here.
We have Strangites, We have all

658
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,440
these other people who let's all
agree that on April 6, I mean,

659
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:42,160
the 1836 temple dedication in
Kirtland, let's go back to the

660
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,760
beliefs of that church because
we can all agree with that on

661
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:45,800
that.
And so that was kind of the

662
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,360
organizing principle of the
reorganization.

663
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:53,760
Then if you want to see what the
1844 church looks like, you

664
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,600
could look at the Brighamite
tradition, right?

665
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,280
So, and that would include the
fundamentalists as well, right?

666
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:00,880
It wouldn't just be the Church
of Jesus Christ Latter Day

667
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,520
Saints and you can then go see,
OK, what would have been if it

668
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,240
was just a Bible Book of Mormon
church.

669
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:08,400
That's the bigger of tonight's.
What if it was just early days

670
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,920
of this church?
What if it was the Kirtland

671
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,120
Temple as opposed to Nabu Temple
writes?

672
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,280
What would it look like RLDS and
you can just see the different

673
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,040
paths where they went and and
how they evolved.

674
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,640
And it's just, it's still
fascinating to be able to see

675
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,360
this mapped out in, in actual
churches that you can visit this

676
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,160
Sunday and, and had those
experiences and see the

677
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,760
different compare and contrast
to different theology, these,

678
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,560
the different beliefs, the, the
different canons that they have

679
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,920
and just be able to say, wow,
like, wow, you know, like the

680
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,680
bicker tonight's are so close to
being an evangelical Protestant

681
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,400
church.
It's hardly I, I have to remind

682
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,480
myself, I'm in, I'm in a
restoration church or I don't

683
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,720
have to remind myself, I'll be
like, wow, this is like the

684
00:37:47,720 --> 00:37:49,160
church I grew up in.
This is great.

685
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,280
And then I hear the preacher
say, and we expect the sealed

686
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,480
portion to be revealed soon.
I'm like, Oh, that's right.

687
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,240
I'm in a restoration.
I forgot for a second there.

688
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:04,600
And so that, that to me is
fascinating.

689
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,000
And, and I, and I, I kind of
break it down that way and I,

690
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,080
and I kind of how I analyze the
church history and, and, and I

691
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,040
think it's, it's a good way to
go about it, you know, kind of

692
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,240
helps add clarification.
Then of course, we have other

693
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:20,600
break offs in other groups and
they're doing their own thing.

694
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,320
And it's the restoration could
be just as messy as

695
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,120
Protestantism in so many ways.
Absolutely.

696
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,280
Absolutely.
What was it about his doctrine

697
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:34,240
that that drew you to it?
You know, I think, I think the

698
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:41,120
original drawing in was the Book
of Mormon itself.

699
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,960
And I just remember as a little
kid, and this would have been

700
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,880
like maybe 9-10 years old, I
don't know.

701
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:53,240
I just remember thinking we need
another Bible because the Bible

702
00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:56,280
we have doesn't seem to be
working anymore because people

703
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,840
aren't following the Bible.
It seems like it's out of date

704
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,080
and we almost need another
Bible.

705
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:07,440
And then I hear about this other
young man who also had this

706
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,440
encounter with these other
scriptures, another Bible, if

707
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,320
you will.
And that was an intriguing thing

708
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,040
to me.
That's what makes Mormonism so

709
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,080
unique is that, you know, you
have a lot of different groups

710
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:26,360
come and go, but this guy had
the audacity to produce new

711
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,160
scripture in a world in which
you didn't do that.

712
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,320
That was verboten.
And and that was an audacious

713
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:39,000
thing for him to do.
And so I also think, you know,

714
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,280
so that that's an interesting
thing.

715
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,360
And what was so interesting was
that the Book of Mormon was,

716
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:50,240
especially to a 19th century
audience, was very relevant for

717
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:53,320
the time because it seemed to
address all of the modern day

718
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,440
things that were happening.
The doctrinal disputes, proper

719
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,320
modes of baptism, all these
different types of doctrines

720
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,760
that they were talking about
that were even Alexander

721
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:03,240
Campbell said.
It seemed like the Book of

722
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:07,520
Mormon addresses all of the
current disputations of our day.

723
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,800
Well, that was kind of the same
mindset I had, like maybe we

724
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,240
need another Bible to kind of
clarify things and be relevant

725
00:40:14,240 --> 00:40:16,880
to a 20th century audience.
And so that that to me is

726
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,880
probably the big, the big thing
for me is the Book of Mormon

727
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,520
itself.
And, and, and what, what the

728
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,880
implications are of what does
new scripture look like?

729
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,400
And, and is that that's a, that
is a type of theology because

730
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,280
you asked specifically what kind
of theology?

731
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:34,840
Well, even as a kid, I
recognized that when people with

732
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:39,760
the the Book of Revelation
saying you should not add or or

733
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,840
or subtract anything from this
book, I knew earlier on that

734
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,120
that was referencing the Book of
Revelation.

735
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,720
It was not book, it was not
referencing the rest.

736
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,400
So when other Christians would
bring that verse, I would say

737
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,080
that has nothing to do with it.
I also come from, you know, kind

738
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,200
of a charismatic Pentecostal
tradition which believes in

739
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,760
modern day Revelation, modern
day apostles and prophets,

740
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,960
right?
But also I never could

741
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,080
understand why Protestants
accepted that the Canon was

742
00:41:09,240 --> 00:41:12,240
closed because that was via the
Council of Trent.

743
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,280
The Council of Trent was the
counter reformation and push

744
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:21,200
back on on on on Protestantism.
That's when the Canon was closed

745
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,320
and the Protestants accepted
that.

746
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,600
And I'm like, I feel like the
God could communicate to our

747
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,880
world any way he wants.
And if it includes new

748
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,480
scripture, so be it.
We don't have the right to say

749
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,120
to God, no, we can't have no
more scripture, a Bible, a

750
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:38,760
Bible.
We already got a Bible.

751
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:43,800
No, I, I think that that it's
important that we realize that

752
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,520
God can still communicate to us,
I believe through new

753
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,760
scriptures.
I think to limit God is to limit

754
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:50,920
God.
And, and I actually think

755
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:56,840
that's, that's blasphemous.
So that's kind of how I approach

756
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,440
the book of Mormons.
So that's and the theology,

757
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,240
right?
There's theological implications

758
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,360
in the idea of an open Canon, in
the idea of having modern

759
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,760
revelation, modern prophets,
modern apostles.

760
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,240
There's implications there,
theological implications for

761
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:15,320
both good and bad.
We can see abuses that have

762
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,760
taken place.
We can see other pretenders who

763
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,000
have claimed to translate plates
or done stuff.

764
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,640
We also see that some of them
were very manipulative, evil

765
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,200
people that have done harm.
That's, that's one of the

766
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,120
downsides to the restoration.
It's, it's this idea that

767
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,400
because this we have this idea
of an open cannon and prophets

768
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,440
and apostles that we've had
throughout the years, people

769
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,440
make these claims.
And literally, and not only

770
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,400
within the Brighamite tradition,
but even in the Josephite

771
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,120
tradition in the 1980s, where
you have these cults, these

772
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,880
personality cults, and they
often lead to murder and death

773
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:59,760
through a justification of of
Nephi with Laden, you know, he

774
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,840
was justified in killing him by
the Holy Spirit.

775
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,880
So they felt justified in doing
that as well.

776
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,720
So we also, and it's so
fascinating because I love this

777
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:10,920
book of Pentecostal reads, the
Book of Mormon friend

778
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,440
Christopher Thomas, who's the
stepped down.

779
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,320
He was the founding president of
the Book of Mormon Studies

780
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,480
Association.
And he has a chapter in this

781
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,960
book about the misapplication of
the Book of Mormon that has

782
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,920
caused problems.
Of course, we see the same thing

783
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,640
happen our world with the Bible
as well.

784
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,040
So it's not just a Mormon thing.
So there's, there's, there's a

785
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:33,200
danger also, we have to
acknowledge that if you're

786
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,840
willing to accept new
scriptures, new revelations,

787
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,960
apostles and prophets, that
they're also outcomes that can

788
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:41,440
happen as well.
You've seen it in the

789
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,640
fundamentalist world and I've
seen it in my as well.

790
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,640
So that that we should always be
aware of the the downfall or

791
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,640
some of the dark side of our
movements as well.

792
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:55,240
You know, a lot of times I, I
feel like when you start parsing

793
00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:59,640
out Mormon history and Mormonism
in general, you have to parse

794
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,800
out, parse it out in a couple
ways.

795
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,720
You got parse out the doctrine,
then you need to parse out the

796
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:06,760
history.
And this is going to address

797
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,000
some of that, right?
Because people have asked, well,

798
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,040
why do you put so much weight on
what Joseph said, right?

799
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,520
Well, there's the, the, the
doctrinal standpoint that I

800
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,160
have, which is he's the
dispensation head, right?

801
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,720
He's the guy that God chose to
talk to on this.

802
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,960
But from a historical
standpoint, right, If you want

803
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,360
to measure fruit, if you will,
right, Who's producing good

804
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,760
fruit?
What do I see from that time

805
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:42,840
period in Mormonism with Joseph?
I see a guy who is able to rally

806
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,240
people, appeal to people's
better nature in many instances,

807
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:52,320
and manage to move people not
just not just spiritually, but

808
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,280
physically, right.
OK, now we're going to move to

809
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,240
Kirtland.
Now we're going to move to

810
00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:58,840
Illinois.
Right?

811
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,520
And what's fascinating is, is
that you get it with Joseph

812
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:07,760
because Joseph is charismatic.
He's loved by people, even

813
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:09,720
people who don't agree with his
theology.

814
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:16,200
You know, he, he, he's very
affable and people rally to him.

815
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:22,120
But what's what gets interesting
is after he passes and Brigham

816
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:27,680
Young picks up the mantle,
Brigham is not Joseph Smith.

817
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,160
He and, and he and to his
credit, he doesn't try to be

818
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,000
Joseph Smith.
He, Brigham is his own man.

819
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:41,920
But nonetheless, the same fruit
seems to be apparent, right?

820
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,840
And so as I start parsing out
doctrine and, and look,

821
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:49,040
Mormonism is interesting because
you can't parse out the doctrine

822
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,400
without the history.
You got to have the context

823
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,920
behind it.
And so when I start trying to

824
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,200
parse out the doctrine and I
start giving doctrinal weight to

825
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:04,080
to certain actors within the
Restoration, that's why Peg kind

826
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,120
of kind of set the bar at Joseph
and Brigham and John Taylor,

827
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,760
because the same spirit, the
same fruit is there with

828
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,320
different leadership, which
shows God's hand, in my opinion,

829
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,360
behind it.
OK.

830
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,920
And, and it's fascinating that
you can't get that without the

831
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,680
history on it.
I think, yeah.

832
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,480
And that's, that's so important.
And of course, we have so many

833
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,360
contemporary counts.
This is the beauty of the

834
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,640
restoration is that we don't
have this in the 1st century of

835
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:30,720
the Christian Church.
We don't have Mormonism,

836
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:34,080
Mormonism unveiled, written
while Jesus's ministry is still

837
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,720
going on or Christianity
unveiled, if you will, right?

838
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,600
So, so we, we, it's a different,
you know, like Phon Brody said,

839
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,800
you know, the audacity to start
a religion during the era of the

840
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:48,600
printing press, right?
And I think that there, there

841
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,000
are so many things and there's
so many ways you can interpret

842
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,640
it too.
Like, like I, I'm, I'm partial.

843
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,440
I mean, I'm, I'm very open to
talking to other groups.

844
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,760
And, and, and, and what's so
interesting is about the Saints

845
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:03,480
who stayed back, who refused to
participate in polygamy and join

846
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,040
Brigham's church.
They kind of look at it and say,

847
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,520
that's a different church.
The warmer in Reformation,

848
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,120
literally they got baptized into
a different church in their mind

849
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,880
and that they feel that their
church is the original successor

850
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:15,920
because they, they never got re
baptized.

851
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,120
They, they have the original
baptism of, of the Josephite

852
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,320
tradition.
And so they feel like they've

853
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,920
taken, they've gone down a
different direction.

854
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:29,320
And so the the church is it's so
fascinating to see all these

855
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,240
different groups, how they are
influenced, but how so

856
00:47:33,240 --> 00:47:34,800
divergent?
You know, what is it the

857
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,560
divergent paths of the
restoration by Steve Shields,

858
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,400
right?
I mean, there's over 100

859
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,120
different groups, you know,
identified in this and there's

860
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:45,480
probably hundreds more that he's
not aware of or who sprung out

861
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,280
since he's written these books,
maybe dozens more.

862
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:54,160
But I, I think that for you,
going down the Brighamite path

863
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,360
and going down and accepting,
you know, polygamy as being an

864
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,560
eternal principle.
And that was, that was

865
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,120
originated with Joseph Smith.
I can totally understand how you

866
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:10,520
could see how Joseph Brigham and
John Taylor all lined up with

867
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,400
each other and that your
movement is just continuing what

868
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,760
the, this new dispensation was
all about.

869
00:48:17,240 --> 00:48:20,280
And and so I can see how you
would understand yourselves as

870
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,880
being really in spirit, the true
successors in many ways to

871
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,520
Joseph in in his mantle and his
teachings on some level, right?

872
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:29,720
I mean, your movement in
general.

873
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,280
So that's the other thing too,
is, you know, what makes the

874
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,480
restoration so difficult,
especially when we're trying to

875
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:37,800
get groups.
And then this is what I love

876
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,120
about what you guys are doing in
Missouri is you have this one

877
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,680
thing, this one true church ISM,
as I call it, we're the one true

878
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,800
church.
One of these groups claims to be

879
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:52,280
the one true church and it makes
for dialogue that much more

880
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,200
difficult as a result between
these groups because it's like,

881
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,960
well, you, you have to get re
baptized, don't recognize it.

882
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,600
And so it makes it so there
there's so many barriers that

883
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:06,640
don't exist in my world.
If you didn't like what the

884
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,480
Wesley brothers were teaching at
the Methodist Church, you just

885
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,800
go down the street and go to the
Presbyterian Church, no problem.

886
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,840
But in your world, it's it's,
it's, it's there are

887
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:20,760
consequences if you lead another
group even within the

888
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,160
Restoration.
I'm blabbering here, but I'm

889
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,440
just kind of just kind of
throwing a lot of stuff out

890
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:26,920
here.
But I'm this is kind of stream

891
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:29,320
of consciousness, if you will.
But there's no it's good.

892
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,600
What's going on?
With the restoration, I find

893
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,320
absolutely fascinating and
compelling.

894
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,720
And as an outsider, I I'm like,
like, what, what is the true

895
00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:39,520
church?
What, who, what church would

896
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:41,680
Joseph recognize as his church,
right.

897
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,520
How you know, and, and what's so
fascinating is like when I had,

898
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,280
and I think this was a keen
insight, I was, I was having

899
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:54,360
dinner with Denver Snuffer and
he went to me and he said if

900
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,160
Joseph Smith came back today and
became the prophet of the, he

901
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,080
said the church would be
bankrupt within five years

902
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,400
because he said he would just
give so much away.

903
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:06,680
Like that's just the way he was.
He was a completely different

904
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,000
person than what the church is
today.

905
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,480
It's a it's a completely
different way of operating.

906
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,920
Well, I just being able to kind
of try to understand the prophet

907
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,040
and what the movement was all
about.

908
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:20,840
He was a rough and tumble kind
of guy.

909
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,320
He the Kendall image that the
correlated Kendall image the

910
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,440
church has given us has a lot of
people don't accept this

911
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:29,240
photograph.
And I tell people, even if this

912
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:32,600
isn't a photo of Smith, he
probably looked a lot more like

913
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,520
this guy than the Kendall image
that the church has been

914
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:40,280
promoting throughout the.
So I think it's I think that

915
00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:43,200
once we realized that Joseph
Smith was truly human being,

916
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:46,720
never in the movies is the
everything shown with a limp.

917
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,320
I mean, he had a limp.
He was he, he needed a cane.

918
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,400
He was he, he probably looked a
lot like this guy in this fold

919
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,640
because he'd spent time in jail.
He would have been tarred and

920
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,120
feathered.
He'd been assaulted.

921
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,320
He was on the run.
That would age you real fast.

922
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:06,680
And so I think that to best
understand the restoration is to

923
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,600
understand Joseph Smith the man
and recognize that he was a man

924
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,800
with flaws.
But still that does not

925
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:18,680
disqualify him from being a
scripture producer or prophet

926
00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:22,160
because there are plenty of
scoundrels who wrote scripture

927
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,040
in the Bible as well.
And I'm not saying Joseph's a

928
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,680
scoundrel, but I'm saying is if
the standard is the Bible, Bible

929
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,560
writers, Joseph Smith in many
ways was was superior to them in

930
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,000
in many ways too.
So in in in his morals.

931
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,000
So that's that's kind of how I
see it and just kind of engage

932
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,960
it that way.
So either way, I'm sorry I

933
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,200
blabbered on there.
Oh no, you're good.

934
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,440
That was that was excellent.
Just to give you a heads up, it

935
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,680
looks I'm getting a message here
saying your bandwidth is low on

936
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,240
your end.
OK.

937
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:55,880
Am I coming through OK though?
Your audio's great, your video

938
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:58,400
kind of freezes now and again,
but OK, we're good.

939
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,320
OK, good.
Yeah, as long as the audio's

940
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:02,520
fine, I don't care if there's a
few glitches or anything, so.

941
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:07,040
Yeah, to go along with that and,
and go back to your original

942
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,960
point about the nasty things
that that have happened within

943
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,560
Mormonism.
And look, we've, we've got to

944
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,600
acknowledge that, right?
We have to say, look, we're not

945
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,320
a perfect people.
We have screwed up.

946
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,040
We have made mistakes from time
to time.

947
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,880
However, I, I do, I do think a
lot of that is because a lot of

948
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:29,480
ideas weren't stress tested
against, especially Joseph,

949
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,240
right?
Like if, if you have an idea,

950
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,360
you should be like, OK, how's
the square with what, what

951
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,600
Joseph taught?
How's the square with what

952
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,240
Brigham taught?
I think you could avoid a lot of

953
00:52:40,240 --> 00:52:44,120
the heartache that we see if you
stress tested the ideas, not

954
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:48,600
only with, with revealed Canon
of scripture, but also with the

955
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,760
things that Joseph and, and
those early guys had to say.

956
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,760
I think, I think there's safety
there, you know, there.

957
00:52:57,080 --> 00:52:59,440
I'll just give you one in
particular, and it's one that I

958
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,520
use quite, quite a bit, right?
Where it's where Joseph has a

959
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,240
quote, and I'm paraphrasing,
where he says heaven will never

960
00:53:07,240 --> 00:53:09,960
intervene when there's an
authorized representative on the

961
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:11,400
earth.
Right.

962
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:17,480
And, well, you want to start
parsing out all the guys who

963
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,320
claim that they're the one
mighty and strong.

964
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,840
OK, Well, is the authority that
is on the earth, did they

965
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,760
receive it from there?
No, Well, there's proper

966
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,640
authority on the earth, so I can
discount that, right?

967
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:34,080
So you can prevent yourself from
going down a lot of bad paths if

968
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,520
you just understand what the
dispensation head had to say

969
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:41,040
about a lot of this.
But unfortunately that stuff

970
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,680
gets tossed to the wind.
And, and you're right that that

971
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:49,240
is the, that is the precarious
nature of still, of saying, hey,

972
00:53:49,240 --> 00:53:52,760
God still talks to man, which I
believe he does, but I don't

973
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:54,920
think that means it's a free for
all, right?

974
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,320
I do think that it is a House of
orders still.

975
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:02,000
You just got to be able to parse
that out and and make sure that

976
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:06,440
it's matching up with with what
the the dispensation had had to

977
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,800
say about it.
You know, it's, it's, that's,

978
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,520
that's that I think discernment
is really important.

979
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:16,320
I think, I think we need to
remind ourselves, OK, not that

980
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,880
long ago, Tim Ballard was
claiming that Jesus appeared to

981
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,320
him.
Yep, that he wanted him to run

982
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,280
for the United States Senate and
that he would be elected.

983
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,440
And he was telling this to
people.

984
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,200
And it was it was out there and
shortly thereafter.

985
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:38,120
And then not only was he making
these claims, but he was not not

986
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,360
necessarily publicly, but we
know that it's been leaked that

987
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,680
he was making these claims.
But at the same time, he's

988
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:46,920
promoting his movie and he's
getting all these people, all

989
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,480
these Mormon podcasters are
having them on the program.

990
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,000
And I had a check in my spirit
about the man.

991
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,320
I was like, I don't know if I
want him to come on my program

992
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:00,520
because I think there's
something not quite right here.

993
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:07,160
Well, to see him go on all these
programs with priesthood holders

994
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,920
who supposedly have discernment,
I was like, why is it that I

995
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,640
have better discernment on Tim
than these priesthood holders?

996
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:20,480
So that was kind of one of those
moments because then later on,

997
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,240
everything just explodes and it
becomes this disaster.

998
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,560
And I had friends who were who
were very close to him, who

999
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,960
defended him to the very end
until those affidavits came out

1000
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:32,840
which were damning.
OK.

1001
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,600
So we can even see not
necessarily a person who claims

1002
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,920
to be a prophet or the one that
might be strong, but if those if

1003
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,040
those affidavits don't come out
and those lawsuits aren't filed,

1004
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,080
we may very well have had AUS
senator from Utah who believed

1005
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,360
that he was going to be
essentially probably the

1006
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:54,800
president United States and
people had prophesied to him.

1007
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:56,800
Actually, I guess people also
did say that he would also

1008
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,800
become the president United
States and also would become the

1009
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,040
prophet of the church.
So I guess in one sense he

1010
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,840
probably was kind of gunning for
that a little bit.

1011
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,480
But that's just that's just an
example of a person who just a

1012
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:13,920
couple years ago was huge, even
in the evangelical world, had

1013
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,440
this big movie that was well
promoted.

1014
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,360
And yet Glenn Beck on board.
He had all these leaders, you

1015
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,000
know, all excited.
You had Tim Ballard meeting with

1016
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:27,640
the Quorum of the 12.
So, so it was all there.

1017
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:30,760
And now we know what we know
about him.

1018
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:35,080
And so I think that's the danger
of falling for a charismatic

1019
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,680
individual who people believe.
And this, and this is the most

1020
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:42,640
interesting thing about Dan
Vogel's book Charisma under

1021
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:46,680
Pressure, his newest book about
Joseph Smith, and I did, and

1022
00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:51,520
this really gives one of the key
takeaways of this book was

1023
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:57,360
charisma is not necessarily the
charisma that is exudes from the

1024
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:02,040
leader.
It is the audience projecting

1025
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:06,080
the charisma on to the leader
and and that and and actually

1026
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,920
that makes a lot of sense.
And so I think a lot of people

1027
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,160
projected a lot of things on the
Tim Ballard and others and that

1028
00:57:12,160 --> 00:57:15,920
that gives them even more power.
So I think we just need to be

1029
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,240
cautious about these things.
You know, and again, for those

1030
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,760
of you who very few people are
defending Tim Ballard anymore,

1031
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,520
even people who were defending
Tim to the very bitter end have

1032
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,920
since moved away from this guy.
I mean, I think he he was a very

1033
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:32,240
dangerous man who needs to get
some help and we need to keep

1034
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,160
him in our prayers.
But it's just an example of

1035
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,760
somebody who, you know, if it
wasn't for a few things, who

1036
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:39,920
knows where he'd be right now.
He could be serving in the

1037
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,760
Senate right now.
And so that's, that's an

1038
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,680
important not only thing for the
restoration, but also for

1039
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:49,000
Christians and people in general
that we need to be very careful

1040
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:54,360
not to project too much onto the
leader or this person who's

1041
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:58,280
going to be the savior of
America, who's going to make

1042
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,720
this country great again, right?
We need to be very careful that

1043
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:06,760
we don't fall into idolatry.
And I think that's a, that's a

1044
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:10,280
dangerous thing that's happening
in our nation as we speak.

1045
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,440
And by the way, it's not just
Republicans.

1046
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,120
We saw Obama was a messianic
character to a lot of Democrats

1047
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:19,040
when he first got elected too.
So this is, this is, this is a

1048
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,440
natural human thing.
I just think we have to be very

1049
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,960
careful that we have our
priorities in the right place.

1050
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:28,600
And remember the Christ is King
and, and, and we shouldn't look

1051
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:32,120
for other men to save us and
give us all the answers and

1052
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:37,920
everything like that.
You know, I, I, that's always an

1053
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,280
interesting thing, right?
When someone crops up and says,

1054
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:45,120
well, I'm the new man, I'm
always like, well, one, if

1055
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,840
you're jockeying for that, I
automatically just trust you

1056
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,840
because I am way too lazy to
ever want that.

1057
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:54,760
So instantly you, you got my
ears perked up, right?

1058
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,800
Like I can, I can't imagine
someone that would want that.

1059
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,280
And I think if someone does want
that, I'm kind of like, yeah,

1060
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,080
you're probably a little, little
bit of a psychopath, right?

1061
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:08,520
And Mormonism, you know, for a,
for a while, there was always

1062
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,160
this push about who's the one
mighty and strong, right?

1063
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,320
And my take away was, you know,
I certainly have my doctrinal

1064
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:19,880
positions on that.
But I, I tend to to say this, if

1065
00:59:19,880 --> 00:59:22,400
someone has to tell you they're
the one mighty and strong,

1066
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:23,720
they're not the one mighty and
strong.

1067
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:29,240
And then to to wrap this up,
when, when you look at religious

1068
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:33,040
leaders, especially ones like
Joseph Smith, you have to, you

1069
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:37,000
have to understand that it's a
lot like looking at first round

1070
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,200
draft picks for quarterbacks,
right?

1071
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:43,560
For every Peyton Manning you
have, you're going to have seven

1072
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,920
or eight guys who just are
busts.

1073
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,440
They wash out, right?
And so for every Joseph Smith

1074
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:55,960
you find, you can bet that the
vast majority of those that that

1075
00:59:56,360 --> 01:00:00,920
that make similar claims aren't
going to pan out as well, right?

1076
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,160
And you can in the world of
religion, you can go down the

1077
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,880
list, right?
Jim Jones, Koresh, just go down

1078
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,280
the list, right?
And and that does make the

1079
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,640
honest dealers and the dealers
who have tapped into something

1080
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:19,640
that much more impressive
because it didn't go ugly like

1081
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:24,360
that, because by all accounts,
Mormonism should have died with

1082
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,480
Joseph Smith.
If it was, if it was all about

1083
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,600
charisma, it should have Joseph
established something that was

1084
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,200
bigger than him.
And that's hard to.

1085
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,720
That's that's so true, because
very few religions, if they're

1086
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:42,400
especially let's say very few
cults make it past, you know,

1087
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:48,440
their their original leader.
And and so that did that is that

1088
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,880
does say something to the
staying power of the restoration

1089
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:54,800
also says something to the
staying power of the Book of

1090
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,040
Mormon.
There have been many pretended

1091
01:00:57,040 --> 01:00:59,040
scriptures that have come out
throughout the years that have

1092
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:00,440
come and gone that we forget
about.

1093
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,400
We don't remember anymore.
But there have been other, you

1094
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,280
know, books that have been made
claims about things.

1095
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,200
But in one sense, the Book of
Mormon has kind of stood the

1096
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:11,600
test of time in a way those
those other scriptures haven't.

1097
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,760
So there look, we're 200 years
into this and it doesn't appear

1098
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:18,680
to be going anywhere gets here
to stay.

1099
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:24,280
And I think that we, we as
outsiders need to try to find an

1100
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,400
accommodation for the
restoration within the broader

1101
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,320
Christian community.
I think that, you know, I think

1102
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:33,760
we can't just exclude them
understanding fully that you're

1103
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:37,800
it's a non credo movement.
It's non typically non

1104
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,680
trinitarian.
So there are issues that do

1105
01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:44,240
separate it from Orthodox
Christianity, but I also think

1106
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:47,520
at the same time, the
demonization of the restoration,

1107
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,000
he needs to stop.
And we need to just have better

1108
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:54,280
dialogue and more Christian
civil discourse between our

1109
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,640
communities.
Because when the world looks at

1110
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,520
this, they don't look at us.
They say all look at those crazy

1111
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:01,640
Christians fighting each other,
whether it's us Protestants

1112
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,400
fighting each other or fighting
the Catholics or we're fighting

1113
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:08,480
you guys.
That just makes us look like we

1114
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:10,800
lack salt and light in the
world.

1115
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,600
And what kind the testimony,
what kind of what kind of

1116
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:15,920
testimony are we really
presenting to the world if we

1117
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,840
can't get our act together and
we just get into arguments and

1118
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:21,240
debates and and say horrible
things to each other?

1119
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,520
I think that needs to stop too.
Oh, I agree.

1120
01:02:25,080 --> 01:02:27,440
I agree.
I think, I think that that, that

1121
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,560
we, we have enough of, of actual
things that divide us that, that

1122
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,960
we don't, we don't need to
invent more, right.

1123
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,880
And, and I think sometimes it
has to do with misunderstanding.

1124
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,320
I do want to, I do want to
acknowledge something here,

1125
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:44,760
right?
I, I think I'm a little

1126
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:50,640
different from most other Mormon
podcasters who are, who are

1127
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,760
still in the faith, so to speak,
right?

1128
01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:58,120
I'm not sure that that as
Mormons we should be pining for

1129
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:03,120
that title of Christian, right?
I don't think, I don't know

1130
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:05,880
that's, that's not a slam on
Christianity, Steve.

1131
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:08,960
I, I don't want anyone to think
it is.

1132
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,280
I that's not what I'm saying.
What I am saying, though, is

1133
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:16,960
that there's enough different
differences between the two that

1134
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:21,800
I think it's not intellectually
honest to try to pine for that

1135
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,960
title.
So I think that's fair,

1136
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:30,600
especially the Brighamite wing
overall, because it is so

1137
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:32,920
different.
I think you can make arguments

1138
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:38,760
that, you know, the the Church
of Jesus Christ are pretty close

1139
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:43,160
to being Orthodox Christians.
I think there would be

1140
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,280
accommodations in that church
for somebody who might even

1141
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:50,400
accept the Trinity.
The 1833 a church, the temple

1142
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:55,920
lot, they're trinitarian.
The 1836 church is essentially

1143
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:57,960
become a mainline Protestant
church.

1144
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:02,840
So all those groups are
definitely more closer to

1145
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:08,640
mainstream Christianity than the
Nauvoo era Brighamite Church.

1146
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:13,320
And so which in which we need to
acknowledge Jill Smith.

1147
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:15,880
It's not just bring Young
Young's originated all this kind

1148
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,360
of stuff like, you know, Joseph
Smith played a hand in a lot of

1149
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:20,560
these doctrinal innovations,
obviously.

1150
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:28,160
And it does those those later
days definitely do differentiate

1151
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,400
the latter day St. movement, in
particular your movement from

1152
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,240
the rest of Christianity.
And I think that needs to be

1153
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:36,680
acknowledged.
I just like to put in there that

1154
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:39,840
I look at the restoration as a
whole and so that it would

1155
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:44,040
include those other groups that
maybe can I think a case can be

1156
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,360
made.
They are Christian churches on

1157
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:51,520
some level, maybe small C, but
but that that to me is an

1158
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:55,400
argument.
But yeah, I certainly see that

1159
01:04:55,400 --> 01:05:00,680
there's a lot of there are just
look, idea of Heavenly Mother or

1160
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:04,960
mothers, those are foreign
concepts, the idea of, you know,

1161
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,200
plural marriage on some level.
Although I have to say that

1162
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,080
there have been some Protestant
communities that have

1163
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:12,600
experienced that have
experimented with the principal

1164
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:15,440
in the past.
And and so so this has happened.

1165
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,600
This is not, you know, that that
is a manifestation that it has

1166
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:20,120
occurred in our movement as
well.

1167
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:22,560
Yeah.
So there's there's enough

1168
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:26,840
different stuff there.
But then at the same time, I can

1169
01:05:26,840 --> 01:05:31,920
look at similarities between the
charismatic movement, the modern

1170
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,920
charismatic Pentecostal movement
and and your church.

1171
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:39,880
OK, I always tell people, I say
in my movement got a guy named

1172
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,240
Benny Hinn who believes in
multiple godhead.

1173
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,760
You have a guy named Kenneth
Copeland who essentially who

1174
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,760
believes that we will become
gods and also basically teaches

1175
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,760
A doctrine that's basically Adam
God doctrine.

1176
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:57,320
You have Pat Robertson, who ran
for president of the United

1177
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:02,640
States.
You had you have oh, who else?

1178
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:04,080
There's a few couple more
people.

1179
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,280
Well, in other words, we have
these characters that all rolled

1180
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:09,640
up in the oh, you have Jim
Baker, who was a city builder,

1181
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:11,520
right?
Right.

1182
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:14,960
Right.
So, so I see all, it's like, oh,

1183
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:19,640
I know Joseph, I can see him.
There's so many similarities

1184
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,000
with some of these really
important leaders.

1185
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,880
You know, you had Oral Roberts
claim to have seen a 200 foot

1186
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:28,240
Jesus to talk to him.
That seems even more implausible

1187
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:32,360
than the first vision, right?
So, so, so, so like in my

1188
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:35,880
movement, it's like, oh, a lot
of these, a lot of these little

1189
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:38,920
doctrines have found their way
in some ways in our in our

1190
01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:42,400
movement.
You have the even even the idea

1191
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:44,560
of, of tithing and it giving you
blessings.

1192
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:49,120
You have the prosperity gospel.
So there are you do find AI can

1193
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:54,640
actually find a lot of different
ideas that Joseph was the

1194
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:59,080
originator of or the OR the
person who was kind of taking in

1195
01:06:59,160 --> 01:07:01,600
from different places as well
have found their way in the

1196
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:03,360
charismatic movement,
interestingly enough.

1197
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:06,640
Oh, that's interesting.
It's almost like, well, you can

1198
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:09,520
have the title of Christian as
long as you don't have all the

1199
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:12,680
crazy beliefs in one guy, right?
You can have some of the

1200
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:16,200
different beliefs spread out.
Oh, it's different guys and it's

1201
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:20,120
fine, but you got you one right.
But that isn't, that is an

1202
01:07:20,120 --> 01:07:23,920
interesting point though, right?
Because all the things that

1203
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:26,960
we've seen, like you just laid
out, which look, I'll be honest,

1204
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:31,400
I was unaware of some of them.
But you start looking at, at

1205
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:34,040
some of that and you're like,
oh, well, that was what happened

1206
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:37,560
like 200 years ago with, except
it was one guy, right?

1207
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:40,480
Again, it's one of those things
like, well, maybe he was ahead

1208
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:44,080
of his time, right?
And, and, and that's, that's,

1209
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:47,040
that's interesting too.
So let me ask you this.

1210
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:51,120
You occupy an interesting space
because, so to speak, you don't

1211
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:54,560
have a dog in the fight, right?
You're, you're, you're, you're

1212
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,920
removed from the theological
aspect of things, which can work

1213
01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:04,360
some folks up, which has got to
give you a, a different lens in

1214
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:06,720
which to view the landscape of
Mormonism.

1215
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:10,720
Now I'm going to ask you a
question and and if you're

1216
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:13,000
uncomfortable answering it, you
don't have to.

1217
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,080
But I'm interested on your take
here.

1218
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:20,359
When you look at the restoration
as a whole, what do you think is

1219
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:22,279
coming in the near future for
it?

1220
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:30,319
Boy, that's such a, that's such
an interesting question.

1221
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:36,840
So I think in the near future,
the Church of Jesus Christ of

1222
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:41,520
Latter Day Saints will continue
its conservative, orthodox

1223
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,920
entrenchment.
It will continue to double down

1224
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:50,359
on the more conservative
aspects.

1225
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,680
It's very similar to what
happened in the 70s and 80s with

1226
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:57,399
the Southern Baptist Convention.
The Missouri church, Missouri

1227
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,479
Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod,
and the evangelical movement in

1228
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:04,800
general will add this real hard
swing to the right in which they

1229
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,319
basically got rid of all the
progressives out of their

1230
01:09:07,319 --> 01:09:10,680
theological institutions and
colleges and replace them with

1231
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:13,439
orthodox conservatives, which is
what we're seeing in the

1232
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:14,800
bringing.
So they're using the same

1233
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,560
playbook the evangelicals were
using back in the day.

1234
01:09:18,200 --> 01:09:21,560
The church is, is following a
very similar pattern.

1235
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:25,200
I think that, and that's just
one aspect.

1236
01:09:25,359 --> 01:09:29,160
I think that the community of
Christ, and this is just my

1237
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:33,080
opinion, but I think it's based
on a well informed opinion and

1238
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:36,680
based on my conversations with
multiple people and sources and

1239
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:39,800
including in the church.
I don't know if that church is

1240
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:40,920
going to be around 10 years from
now.

1241
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:45,000
I, I, I, I don't know.
I have reports that they're

1242
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:48,080
expecting in some regions to
close 80% of their congregations

1243
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:53,120
within the next five years,
Which it, it's plausible that

1244
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,520
with it, I thought maybe 100
years from now, but it's

1245
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,120
plausible that within the next
10 to 15 years, the bigger

1246
01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:00,280
tonight's might be the second
largest church in the

1247
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:05,040
restoration over the Community
of Christ, which is just mind

1248
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:07,840
blowing to think about.
I think that the bigger

1249
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:13,800
tonight's, there is a move going
on there that I think is pretty

1250
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,320
remarkable.
I attended their general

1251
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:20,320
conference and there was
multiple instances of tongue

1252
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:23,320
speech.
There were revelations, there

1253
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:26,920
were visions.
I saw in my mind.

1254
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:30,480
I'm like, man, this feels very
much like early days early.

1255
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:33,360
And what was so interesting is
they actually had a conference

1256
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,080
here at my Christian community,
a regional conference.

1257
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:41,360
And I took my my mom and my 100
and year one year old prophetess

1258
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:45,880
missionary friend Yanni, who was
involved in the early days of

1259
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:48,040
the charismatic movement,
including my mom was too.

1260
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:51,480
She attended their service and
she said, Steve, this is like

1261
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:54,320
the early days, the early days
of our movement.

1262
01:10:55,000 --> 01:11:00,560
And so to be able to have the
privilege to attend their

1263
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:05,600
general conference and engage
the people, there was a power

1264
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:08,240
there that was remarkable.
And I have to tell you that I,

1265
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:11,760
I, I can, and I'll just be
honest with you, the very first

1266
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:13,880
church and restoration that I
ever darkened the door of was

1267
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:15,800
that church.
They have a congregation about

1268
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:19,240
90 minutes away from here.
I thought this would be a good

1269
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:21,000
starting point.
And this is early days of my

1270
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:22,360
channel.
My channel had been around for a

1271
01:11:22,360 --> 01:11:25,840
couple months.
And I walk in there and I have

1272
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:30,800
to say, it was, it really struck
me and I felt the Holy Spirit

1273
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:33,120
and I felt the anointing, if you
will.

1274
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:35,600
And my mom's even claimed, she's
also said she's felt the

1275
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:37,200
anointing in those services as
well.

1276
01:11:38,480 --> 01:11:41,280
And it changed, changed me and
it changed my channel.

1277
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:44,320
And then what was so interesting
is a couple weeks later, I, the

1278
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:46,480
God told me he's like, you need
to go to the Mormon History

1279
01:11:46,480 --> 01:11:47,560
Association.
I wasn't going to go.

1280
01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:50,400
But after I attended that
service, I got, I had $1500

1281
01:11:50,400 --> 01:11:52,240
saved to get new rims for my
car.

1282
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:56,640
And instead, I chose to invest
that money into my channel so

1283
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:58,280
that I could attend the Mormon
History Association.

1284
01:11:58,280 --> 01:12:01,600
It was a direct result of God
saying I kept on because God

1285
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:03,840
told me not to make any plans.
And I I kept on pushing back.

1286
01:12:04,480 --> 01:12:06,440
Rick Bennett was getting on me.
Go to MHA.

1287
01:12:06,440 --> 01:12:07,800
Go to MHA.
No, I can't do it.

1288
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:08,640
I can't do it.
I can't do it.

1289
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,680
Well, after I attended that
service is like, oh, OK, I got

1290
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:14,520
confirmation I'm supposed to
attend to MHA.

1291
01:12:15,280 --> 01:12:17,800
And that changed the trajectory
of my channel because that that

1292
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,840
of course, gets me to book
Richard Bushman, which then

1293
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:23,360
causes a lot of people to say,
hey, wait, who is this guy?

1294
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:25,520
Bushman hasn't done the podcast
in years.

1295
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:27,520
So I think the hand of God was
in that.

1296
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:31,280
But then I go and attend Rick
Bennett's church in Lehigh and I

1297
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:34,880
love Rick Bennett and I I really
do, but I go to intend that

1298
01:12:34,880 --> 01:12:38,680
service and I was like, man,
this is that is a doornail.

1299
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:40,360
These people could use a cup of
coffee.

1300
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:47,600
So, and, and, and it was just
such a different experience for

1301
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:51,080
me and it, and, and I'm really
grateful that I got to attend

1302
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:54,160
that bicker tonight church
because I saw they are like, and

1303
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:57,760
this, this, there was a power
there that I saw that I felt

1304
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:01,640
that the, the, the spirit was
operational in a way that was

1305
01:13:01,640 --> 01:13:05,400
unique and even more look, even
I'm, I'm saying the spirit was

1306
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,160
operating there.
That won't be 9.9% of the church

1307
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:09,520
services I've attended in my
life.

1308
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:13,000
So I'm not just isn't just a, a
bash on in any particular

1309
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:15,120
church.
This is just, I, I'm just, I

1310
01:13:15,120 --> 01:13:19,080
experienced what I experienced.
So, so I think that the bigger

1311
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:22,720
tonight's are a movement that
that will continue to grow and I

1312
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:26,200
think that they very well could
be in the next 1020 years become

1313
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:28,000
the second largest branch in
restoration.

1314
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:33,640
I think that, you know, I tell
people because people go out to

1315
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:37,640
me and saying like, look, I was
kind of told don't platform the

1316
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:40,840
polygamy deniers as they were
called, so don't platform them.

1317
01:13:41,720 --> 01:13:45,680
And then as I studied it and
looked into it, I realized, you

1318
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:48,360
know, when they write the
chapter for, for the early,

1319
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:51,920
early 21st century history of
the, of the restoration

1320
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:54,840
movement, they're going to have
a chapter about this, this

1321
01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:57,400
group.
And so to ignore that group was

1322
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:00,640
actually going against the idea
of my channel, which is all the

1323
01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:02,400
voices of the restoration will
be heard here.

1324
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:08,000
So then I started engaging
Michelle Brady Stone and others.

1325
01:14:08,240 --> 01:14:12,960
And I felt like I was, it wasn't
fair that I kind of didn't

1326
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:15,880
engage them.
And I'm glad that I did and I'm

1327
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:17,480
glad I have a good relationship
with those people.

1328
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:21,240
I think that's a movement that's
going to continue on.

1329
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:23,920
It's on a different trajectory.
I don't know, could this

1330
01:14:23,920 --> 01:14:26,160
ultimately lead to another
church being started?

1331
01:14:26,160 --> 01:14:30,320
I don't know.
I think Denver Snuffer and his

1332
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:32,120
movement are are fascinating
group.

1333
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:37,000
I mean they're making claims.
Some people believe that Denver

1334
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:41,240
is the Davidic servant.
I think it's really fascinating

1335
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:44,360
that one of Denver Snuffer's
right hand man, Matthew Lowmeyer

1336
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:47,480
was recently appointed as the
Under Secretary of the US Air

1337
01:14:47,480 --> 01:14:51,240
Force.
So if I was a follower of Denver

1338
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:55,600
Snuffer, and I believe that the
second coming is coming soon and

1339
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:59,560
I have a very close associate of
Denver Snuffers that has the ear

1340
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,240
of the most powerful man in the
world, I would think that

1341
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:06,800
there's with a within their
belief system, things are coming

1342
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:10,240
into a head.
I also think that what's so

1343
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:13,080
fascinating is just seeing all
these movements, including your

1344
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:17,080
own, which in and of itself is
remarkable to have all these

1345
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:20,760
other fundamentalist groups
coming together and being able

1346
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:23,840
to go through the original
endowment ceremony.

1347
01:15:24,800 --> 01:15:28,120
That's that's, that's revelatory
in some sense.

1348
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:31,120
And so it seems to indicate so
it is the Church of Jesus

1349
01:15:31,120 --> 01:15:33,640
Christ, Latter Day Saints and
we're coming on the 200

1350
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:38,040
anniversaries of both just that
have passed and are coming of

1351
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:41,680
some really important dates
within the movement.

1352
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:45,120
So I think that there's a
general anticipation that things

1353
01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:50,320
are winding down and today's and
it's, it's coming.

1354
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:53,400
So what does the future look
like for the, for the

1355
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:57,560
restoration?
Well, maybe the things wrapped

1356
01:15:57,560 --> 01:16:00,160
up and the second coming is, is
happening.

1357
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:04,160
And so then we're talking about
Millennium now or maybe the

1358
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:06,280
second coming doesn't, maybe
it's not for another couple

1359
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:09,280
thousand years.
So now we have to look at, you

1360
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:12,320
know, what does, what does, what
does the restoration look like

1361
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:15,160
if it's we're still here 100
years from now, right?

1362
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:19,720
And that's that's kind of where
we have to look at it like, you

1363
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:23,280
know, we have a church that is
one of the most, you know,

1364
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:27,760
wealthiest churches in the world
that could go hundreds of years

1365
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,680
without accepting any tithe
money and just work off the

1366
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:32,800
money that they have, you know,
stored up.

1367
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:36,520
So you have that.
And so it in and of itself that

1368
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:41,520
church is not going anywhere.
And so a lot, but there's other

1369
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:44,040
groups that probably won't make
it 100 years from now.

1370
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:47,280
I, I love the community of
Christ, but just seeing the

1371
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:48,960
direction it's going and I'm
hope I'm wrong.

1372
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:51,400
Prove me wrong, please.
Do I think you're an important

1373
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:53,160
voice.
And I, I do appreciate the

1374
01:16:53,160 --> 01:16:55,960
community of Christ immensely.
But I just seen the trajectory

1375
01:16:55,960 --> 01:16:57,960
of that church and, and I'm very
concerned about it.

1376
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,040
And, and there's many people in
that church are also very

1377
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:01,400
concerned about the trajectory
of that church.

1378
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:04,360
So I hope I answered your
question there because I think

1379
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:06,720
it's it's it's I can't just talk
about one church.

1380
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:09,280
Oh no, that's not what I'm.
Asking Restoration.

1381
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:14,760
Restoration as a whole is, but I
do, I do see that there seems to

1382
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:20,040
be this convergence of a belief
that something is happening,

1383
01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:24,120
that there's changes going on,
that the sealed portion is about

1384
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:28,680
to be revealed, that maybe the
choice seer.

1385
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:32,800
So within, within the, within
the Bickertonite tradition, they

1386
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:36,680
believe that there will be a
choice seer named Joseph who

1387
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:40,160
will be a Native American who
will reveal, reveal new records.

1388
01:17:40,160 --> 01:17:41,800
That's, that's their
anticipation.

1389
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:46,280
You have other groups that
believe in the future one and

1390
01:17:46,360 --> 01:17:49,840
one, it might be strong.
They're anticipating that.

1391
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:52,760
I've spoken to others who
believe that Joseph Smith will

1392
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:57,880
return or in one case a person
who says Joseph Smith already

1393
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:01,440
has returned.
So you have a lot of these

1394
01:18:01,440 --> 01:18:04,360
different interpretations and
all these things that are going

1395
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:07,440
on.
And so I don't know, I think

1396
01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:13,720
that we will continue to see the
rise of the ex Mormon movement

1397
01:18:14,480 --> 01:18:16,480
that will be around that's here
to stay.

1398
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:23,960
But I also think because the,
you know, you've had this, this

1399
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:26,280
a large amount of people that
have left the movement, in

1400
01:18:26,280 --> 01:18:28,120
particular church use Christ
Latter day Saints.

1401
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,840
I think that the, that, that the
amount of people that will be

1402
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:33,440
leaving the church will be
slowing down.

1403
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:36,880
So I, I think that, that it, it
has lost some momentum because

1404
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,960
what we have seen just overall
throughout the world, there's

1405
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:44,360
been a push back of the growth
of atheism and we actually are

1406
01:18:44,360 --> 01:18:46,920
now seeing the pendulum swing.
We're now, we're seeing an

1407
01:18:46,920 --> 01:18:50,000
increase in church membership
now throughout the world in the

1408
01:18:50,000 --> 01:18:52,880
Christian Church in general.
And we're seeing it even church.

1409
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:56,320
So I think we're, we're having a
push back against the new

1410
01:18:56,320 --> 01:19:00,120
atheist movement and, and, and
so the so the churches are kind

1411
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:03,920
of putting out a counter
offensive that that started

1412
01:19:03,920 --> 01:19:06,360
happening, you know, about 20
years ago with the rise of the

1413
01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:09,600
theists and stuff like that.
And I also think that people

1414
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:14,080
realize the importance of having
faith and becoming a nihilistic

1415
01:19:14,080 --> 01:19:16,520
atheist.
This is dark can, can be a very

1416
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:19,880
dark space to be in.
And so they've sometimes and

1417
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:23,120
realize that in many cases, the
ex Mormon community in in and of

1418
01:19:23,120 --> 01:19:26,360
itself is its own religion.
It has its own.

1419
01:19:26,920 --> 01:19:28,160
Well, really it does.
I mean like.

1420
01:19:28,480 --> 01:19:32,000
It is No, you're you're I I
laugh because I made that point

1421
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:33,520
on the podcast.
Somebody else?

1422
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,280
But well, they that you can be
excommunicated from the ex

1423
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,160
Mormon community.
That's the crazy thing.

1424
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:42,080
Like, you know, they, they, you
can be cancelled,

1425
01:19:42,080 --> 01:19:44,160
excommunicated, But the, the
difference is there's no,

1426
01:19:44,480 --> 01:19:47,560
because it's primarily atheist,
it's there's no redemption,

1427
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,160
there's no second chances.
It's like once you're cancelled,

1428
01:19:50,160 --> 01:19:53,240
you're it.
And I feel like so often there

1429
01:19:53,240 --> 01:19:56,000
is a there's a toxicity in that
can be look, I, I love the ex

1430
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:58,160
Mormon community in many ways.
I'm friends with many people in

1431
01:19:58,160 --> 01:19:59,360
there.
I'm not, this is not, I'm not

1432
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:01,800
implicating.
I totally understand why you

1433
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:05,000
would maybe take that path
because I was an atheist for 13

1434
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:05,840
years.
So I ain't going to hate on

1435
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:06,880
atheists.
I ain't going to hate on ex

1436
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:08,560
Mormons.
I understand that space you're

1437
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:12,080
in, but sometimes people occupy
that space, that angry atheist

1438
01:20:12,080 --> 01:20:14,480
phase for too long.
I understand if you need to be

1439
01:20:14,480 --> 01:20:16,160
the angry atheist for a while.
I was too.

1440
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:19,760
But you got it from that too,
because it can do a lot of

1441
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:24,960
damage to your soul hatred.
It, I don't care what the hatred

1442
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:27,600
is directed towards, hatred is
still hatred and it will do

1443
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:31,120
damage to your soul, period.
So even if you hate Joseph

1444
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:33,120
Smith, even if you hate the
Church of Jesus Christ, Latter

1445
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:35,680
Day Saints, and maybe you have
good reasons to feel that way,

1446
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:39,240
you need to move on because
you're doing damage to yourself.

1447
01:20:39,440 --> 01:20:41,080
And hate is a very destructive
thing.

1448
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:44,160
So I don't know, that's just an
overview of a lot of different

1449
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:45,720
things.
No, no, that's, that's

1450
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:47,440
excellent.
You know, I want to I want to

1451
01:20:47,440 --> 01:20:48,800
touch on a few things you said
there.

1452
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:54,120
One is the idea that that Jesus
is coming back tomorrow, right?

1453
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:57,640
I've always said this, you
should live like that's exactly

1454
01:20:57,640 --> 01:21:00,240
what's going to happen.
But you should also plan on

1455
01:21:00,320 --> 01:21:02,640
planting your apple trees and
that sort of thing, right,

1456
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:07,400
'cause I, I, I, I've called it
playing pin the tail on the

1457
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:10,880
Apocalypse, right?
Too often that's a losing game,

1458
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:13,400
right?
And, and I don't, I don't spend

1459
01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:15,320
a lot of time.
Now, let me rephrase this.

1460
01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:20,400
I do think about it, and I like
talking about it, right?

1461
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:23,560
But keep that in the realm of
ideas, right?

1462
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:26,600
Like I'm always nervous when
someone says it's going to

1463
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:29,280
happen next year or five years
from now.

1464
01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:32,520
I'm like, yeah, just just relax
on that.

1465
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:34,240
That's that's the world I grew
up in.

1466
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:37,320
That's the world I grew up in.
Like absolutely great Planet

1467
01:21:37,320 --> 01:21:41,000
Earth was the top selling book
period of the 70s and basically

1468
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:43,480
was that Jesus was going to be
coming in the year 1988.

1469
01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:46,120
That's basically why, you know,
and that's why I became such a

1470
01:21:46,120 --> 01:21:48,800
big seller.
I grew up in the world in which

1471
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:51,240
the second second coming was
right around the corner.

1472
01:21:51,520 --> 01:21:54,720
The idea that we'd even see the
year 2000 was ridiculous.

1473
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:58,320
Like it was, there's no way
we're going to make it to the

1474
01:21:58,320 --> 01:21:59,760
year 2000.
Like Jesus is going to come

1475
01:21:59,760 --> 01:22:02,280
before that.
So, yeah, I grew up in that

1476
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:04,160
world.
So I've learned to be much more

1477
01:22:04,320 --> 01:22:08,640
grounded on this whole thing.
Yes, susceptible to looking for

1478
01:22:08,800 --> 01:22:12,520
being a sign seeker or whatever.
I'm, I'm, I'm more of one of

1479
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:14,040
those people that's like, I'm,
I'm observing.

1480
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:16,800
I've, I've essentially moved
into the post millennial camp

1481
01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:20,680
myself.
So I'm, I'm an optimistic post

1482
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:24,320
millennialist, if you will.
So that doesn't really fit

1483
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:27,520
within the world view of the
restoration movement at all

1484
01:22:27,840 --> 01:22:29,760
because you guys are
premillennial.

1485
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:32,600
But I tend to be more
comfortable in a partial

1486
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:38,440
preterist post millennial space.
That's that's where I land in

1487
01:22:38,440 --> 01:22:41,440
that category.
Yeah, no, absolutely.

1488
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:44,000
I so, so that's, that's that for
that.

1489
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:45,800
I believe the second coming will
happen.

1490
01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:49,440
I think, I think all those
events will take place, but I

1491
01:22:49,440 --> 01:22:52,680
don't allow myself to spend an
inordinate amount of time

1492
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:55,680
thinking about it.
But back to where I think the

1493
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:57,880
restoration is heading with that
question.

1494
01:22:58,480 --> 01:23:02,960
I read an interesting article.
Oh, I want to say just last

1495
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:07,080
month and, and I should say
this, I've changed my views a

1496
01:23:07,080 --> 01:23:09,320
little bit on the younger
generation.

1497
01:23:09,920 --> 01:23:13,400
OK.
I was always like just, you

1498
01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:15,680
know, 'cause I come from a poor
background, right?

1499
01:23:15,680 --> 01:23:18,400
And, and managed to get myself
out of poverty and, and those

1500
01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:21,120
sorts of things.
So I was always like, just work

1501
01:23:21,120 --> 01:23:22,880
harder, right?
You'll, you'll get there.

1502
01:23:22,880 --> 01:23:25,160
Just put, put more elbow grease
into it.

1503
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:28,600
I will say this, I think, I
think after looking at it and it

1504
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:32,440
came from personal experience
with, with a young man that I

1505
01:23:32,440 --> 01:23:36,160
know back in Utah and start
looking at it.

1506
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:39,040
And yeah, the deck is kind of
stacked against him a little

1507
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:43,760
bit, right?
And but also I, I took a deeper

1508
01:23:43,760 --> 01:23:48,160
look at why church attendance
was down everywhere, right?

1509
01:23:48,280 --> 01:23:51,280
Not just Mormonism, but
everywhere.

1510
01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:56,520
And as I start talking, because
most of the guys I either work

1511
01:23:56,520 --> 01:23:59,520
with or, or some of the guys
that that I hang out with,

1512
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:00,960
they're a little bit younger
than I am.

1513
01:24:01,600 --> 01:24:06,200
And what I was discovering is
that they're not leaving church

1514
01:24:06,200 --> 01:24:10,360
because they want to go do
something different, right?

1515
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:14,120
They're leaving church because
they don't feel like they're

1516
01:24:14,120 --> 01:24:18,240
making an impact there, right?
For this younger generation,

1517
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:23,320
they're very, they want to know
whatever they're doing is

1518
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:26,840
contributing to the good of the
society they're in.

1519
01:24:28,440 --> 01:24:31,520
And I think what's going to
happen to the restoration,

1520
01:24:31,520 --> 01:24:34,680
especially those who aren't
super organized, I think they're

1521
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:38,240
going to get a bump really soon
because I think that younger

1522
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:41,240
generation wants to be involved
in something that's bigger than

1523
01:24:41,240 --> 01:24:46,480
them, right?
And if we look at what Joseph's

1524
01:24:46,480 --> 01:24:50,440
original thrust was, he didn't
care about churches, right?

1525
01:24:50,440 --> 01:24:56,560
He, he built exactly 0 just ward
chapels or meeting houses.

1526
01:24:56,880 --> 01:24:59,240
What he did build was
communities and temples.

1527
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:06,200
And that's a different view than
a lot of other, other than a lot

1528
01:25:06,200 --> 01:25:08,440
of the rest of Christianity.
And that's not a slam.

1529
01:25:08,440 --> 01:25:10,560
I'm just saying the view was
different from Joseph's

1530
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:14,080
perspective.
And so I think that some of

1531
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:18,840
those youth, if we, if we who,
who look, I'm talking to

1532
01:25:18,840 --> 01:25:21,360
fundamentalists, I'm talking to
independents, right?

1533
01:25:21,360 --> 01:25:25,800
Those, if you can, if we can
line up and have a positive

1534
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:28,760
impact or on, on the community
in which we reside.

1535
01:25:30,040 --> 01:25:33,280
I, I think some of these, these
other doctrines that we think

1536
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:37,160
might be a barrier to entry
aren't necessarily a barrier to

1537
01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:38,760
entry for the younger
generation.

1538
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:41,760
They just want to know that what
they're doing is, is having a

1539
01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:44,560
positive impact on the society
in general.

1540
01:25:45,040 --> 01:25:47,320
And there is some danger in
that, right.

1541
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:51,160
You got to be able to keep
because, look, if, if you just

1542
01:25:51,160 --> 01:25:54,360
throw all orthodoxy out the
window, what are you left with?

1543
01:25:54,680 --> 01:25:57,280
Well, you're, you're not really
left with a church any longer.

1544
01:25:57,280 --> 01:25:59,400
You're left with a social club,
right?

1545
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:02,560
And so you're going to have to
walk a fine line there.

1546
01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:06,280
But if, if we can do that and,
and get out of the way and not

1547
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:09,840
be so concerned with hierarchy
and start being more concerned

1548
01:26:09,840 --> 01:26:13,280
with, are we having, are we
being the, the light on the hill

1549
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:17,520
that that Christ asked us to be?
I think I think things are good

1550
01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:19,920
there.
So I do think that as I look at

1551
01:26:19,920 --> 01:26:22,160
it, I think the more
hierarchical structures are

1552
01:26:22,160 --> 01:26:23,600
going to suffer in the short
term.

1553
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:27,680
I think, I think those who are a
little less organized but maybe

1554
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:31,320
a little more service minded or
trying to get back to the

1555
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:33,520
original message, I think those
will flourish for a.

1556
01:26:33,520 --> 01:26:37,880
While I think this is the, I
call DIY Mormonism or non

1557
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:41,840
denominational Mormonism, I
think that that's there's a rise

1558
01:26:41,840 --> 01:26:43,640
of that and I'm glad you brought
that up because I think that's

1559
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:45,640
a, that's a growing movement as
well.

1560
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:48,200
People that are just kind of
doing their own type of

1561
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:50,320
Mormonism on an individual
level.

1562
01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:52,840
It's very Protestant, it's very
evangelical.

1563
01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:56,840
And, and I've, I've spoken to
many people off the record who

1564
01:26:56,840 --> 01:27:00,480
are basically non denominational
Mormons are just kind of doing

1565
01:27:00,480 --> 01:27:03,520
their own thing.
And that's a really fascinating

1566
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:07,720
facet of, of that.
And so, yeah, there's and let's,

1567
01:27:07,720 --> 01:27:10,320
let's not also ignore the fact
that there is a rise of

1568
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:13,440
progressive Mormons that I want
to continue who like the

1569
01:27:13,440 --> 01:27:17,160
reformed Mormonism movement,
which Rob Raoul Lauer is

1570
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:18,240
involved in.
Of course, my friend Evan

1571
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:20,480
Charlie's involved.
They're, they're doing the

1572
01:27:20,480 --> 01:27:23,600
endowment ceremony.
They believe in the doctrines,

1573
01:27:23,680 --> 01:27:26,560
you know, many, many ways they
probably are in line with you

1574
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:32,840
guys on doctrine and theology
more so than the main church.

1575
01:27:32,840 --> 01:27:35,960
Absolutely.
And, and so I think it's really,

1576
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:38,160
but it's a progressive take on
it.

1577
01:27:38,160 --> 01:27:41,240
It's, it's, it's a different
manifestation of the

1578
01:27:41,240 --> 01:27:44,440
restoration, but it is truly
fascinating to essentially

1579
01:27:44,440 --> 01:27:48,640
accept a lot of the 19th century
doctrine as being part of their

1580
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:52,600
church, but kind of putting a
21st century twist on it, but

1581
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:56,320
still practicing a lot of the
principles of, of, of the 19th

1582
01:27:56,320 --> 01:27:59,680
century Mormonism.
So it's, it's, it's just really

1583
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:02,720
kind of in my mind, it's kind of
a cool experiment to see what's

1584
01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:04,880
going on.
But I also realized that I got,

1585
01:28:04,880 --> 01:28:09,920
I got to be, I don't want to
come across as an anthropologist

1586
01:28:09,920 --> 01:28:11,960
who's just kind of standing here
and watching things like, oh,

1587
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:14,200
isn't this interesting?
Oh, isn't this exciting because

1588
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:17,440
I recognize like these are human
beings and this is about their

1589
01:28:17,440 --> 01:28:21,280
faith and this is what they
believe and this is what makes

1590
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:23,720
them who they are.
So I have to be honoring and

1591
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:26,360
respecting of all these
different views it without

1592
01:28:26,360 --> 01:28:29,120
trying to come across as some
kind of outsider who thinks,

1593
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:33,360
I'll look at, you know, oh, I'm
just observing things and kind

1594
01:28:33,360 --> 01:28:35,880
of ecologist and kind of
scribing them.

1595
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:37,920
I'm like, no, I'm, I'm living it
too.

1596
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:40,000
I'm attending the services, I'm
praying with them.

1597
01:28:40,040 --> 01:28:44,120
I'm, I'm, I'm fellowshipping
with them and I'm engaging with

1598
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:47,040
restoration in a way that I
think is so important that if

1599
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:49,440
you're going to be the religious
group, you can't just be an

1600
01:28:49,440 --> 01:28:52,240
outsider.
You need to be a participant on

1601
01:28:52,240 --> 01:28:54,400
some level.
And that's what I try to do.

1602
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:58,800
I consider that what I'm doing
here is, is a sacred thing,

1603
01:28:59,040 --> 01:29:03,200
having a conversation with you.
And I'm honored that you would

1604
01:29:03,200 --> 01:29:05,520
have me on your program.
And I'm honored about all the

1605
01:29:05,520 --> 01:29:09,000
wonderful people that have been
on my program because it's just,

1606
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:11,640
it's, it's a sacred conversation
that we're having.

1607
01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:15,960
It's a very human conversation
as well, but it's sacred because

1608
01:29:15,960 --> 01:29:18,840
we're all image bearers.
So any time we're engaging each

1609
01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:22,440
other as image bearers, it is a
sacred moment, especially when

1610
01:29:22,440 --> 01:29:24,240
we're talking about sacred
things.

1611
01:29:24,720 --> 01:29:27,520
And, and I think that that's
really, I think that's what, if

1612
01:29:27,520 --> 01:29:30,000
you will, Heavenly Father wants
for his children.

1613
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:34,200
Stopping the bicker tonight, not
the bickering, not the bicker

1614
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:36,320
tonight's stopping the
disputations.

1615
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:40,200
And one of the, one of the words
that I feel the Lord gave me was

1616
01:29:40,200 --> 01:29:42,400
a couple years ago, I was
speaking at the Book of Mormon

1617
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:45,000
rally in Independence, MO.
And they're all different

1618
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:47,800
groups.
And I remember standing there

1619
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:51,280
and I said, you know, in the
Book of Mormon, we have what is

1620
01:29:51,280 --> 01:29:55,840
called a, what I call a proto
Millennium, which we have this

1621
01:29:55,840 --> 01:30:01,120
200 years of peace.
And one of the key things that

1622
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:05,080
brought this about was one of
the key verses was and there

1623
01:30:05,080 --> 01:30:09,040
were no more matter of ites.
And then I'm like, but I'm

1624
01:30:09,040 --> 01:30:13,160
looking in this crowd and I see
Brighamites, Josephites,

1625
01:30:13,440 --> 01:30:17,120
Cutlerites, Strangites,
Bickertonites, all these matter

1626
01:30:17,120 --> 01:30:19,400
of Ites.
You know, it's almost like it

1627
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:23,560
was a, a call to the restoration
that if you believe in bringing

1628
01:30:23,560 --> 01:30:29,480
forth Zion, if you believe in
bringing forth the, the

1629
01:30:29,480 --> 01:30:33,800
Millennium and the, and all
these kind of things, we got to

1630
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:38,160
get rid of all these Ites.
As long as there's Ites, the

1631
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:42,000
restoration will not be ready
for what they believe will be

1632
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:44,000
coming.
And and so I think that that's a

1633
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:45,320
key thing too.
And I think the Book of Mormon

1634
01:30:45,320 --> 01:30:48,280
even tells us it's a
condemnation, if you will, on

1635
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:51,120
some level of the Restoration
that we have all these matter of

1636
01:30:51,120 --> 01:30:53,040
Ites when it makes it very clear
in the Book of Mormon there

1637
01:30:53,040 --> 01:30:57,840
can't be any more rights.
That, that's a tall order,

1638
01:30:57,840 --> 01:30:59,320
right?
Because there's a guy who's

1639
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:06,200
inside of of the community, if
you were to do something like

1640
01:31:06,200 --> 01:31:08,800
that, I think you all have to
agree on a standard at some

1641
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:11,560
level, right?
And look, let's let's be fair, a

1642
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:14,720
lot of the, a lot of those
groups that that maybe spring

1643
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:18,720
from Emma Smith, I don't know
how else to put it, right?

1644
01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:24,080
I know my family wouldn't be
welcome there, right?

1645
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:28,240
I mean, that's just what it is.
It's it's a, it's a very

1646
01:31:28,240 --> 01:31:30,960
uncomfortable conversations.
We're going to have to be, but I

1647
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:32,920
think it's time for the adults
to start talking.

1648
01:31:33,280 --> 01:31:35,440
You know, I think that's really
important.

1649
01:31:35,440 --> 01:31:37,320
I think.
And I also think that, you know,

1650
01:31:37,320 --> 01:31:39,280
if you, if you believe the Book
of Mormon and if you believe in

1651
01:31:39,280 --> 01:31:43,280
the restoration, I think that
it, it really it, it, it's a

1652
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:47,240
very compelling thing that, that
it condemns ITS.

1653
01:31:47,240 --> 01:31:48,400
And yet there has been all
these.

1654
01:31:48,440 --> 01:31:50,360
And again, the whole idea of the
restoration was we're going to

1655
01:31:50,440 --> 01:31:52,760
get rid of the confusion.
We're going to get rid of, we're

1656
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:54,520
going to, we're going to have
standard, we're going to have

1657
01:31:54,680 --> 01:31:56,720
like this church is a mess.
That's why we need a

1658
01:31:56,720 --> 01:31:58,120
restoration.
And then I look at the

1659
01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:01,280
restoration and, and in 200
years it's, it's, it's probably,

1660
01:32:01,280 --> 01:32:07,160
there are probably more sex of
the restoration in the 200 years

1661
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:09,480
of the church than there were in
the 1st 200 years of the

1662
01:32:09,480 --> 01:32:10,960
Christian Church.
Sure.

1663
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:15,040
So, and if it continues to, to
trajectory, you'll probably be

1664
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:16,760
even more so than Protestants
and everything.

1665
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:21,400
So I think that that's that is
a, you know, when Azertec Benson

1666
01:32:21,400 --> 01:32:25,160
said the church is under
condemnation and still is, I

1667
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:26,800
think I think there's something
to that.

1668
01:32:27,640 --> 01:32:31,280
Sure, sure.
No, I think, I think there's so

1669
01:32:31,280 --> 01:32:37,440
many people that are so widely
different in their theologies

1670
01:32:37,440 --> 01:32:42,000
and their doctrines that it's
hard to to wrap everyone's mind

1671
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:42,720
around it.
Right.

1672
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:45,480
And, and it's an interesting
thing that that you did bring up

1673
01:32:45,480 --> 01:32:50,560
earlier, What I tend to see in
these different splits is

1674
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:52,560
everyone picks their favorite
time period.

1675
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:55,760
Yes, right.
Yep, precisely just.

1676
01:32:55,920 --> 01:33:00,800
Just as you put it out out
there, right, a lot of people

1677
01:33:00,800 --> 01:33:04,040
don't like the Nauvoo period.
Well, I'm sorry, it is a period

1678
01:33:04,040 --> 01:33:07,360
of Joseph's life, right?
And if you, you know, a guy like

1679
01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:10,040
myself, I tend to look at that
and say he Joseph during the

1680
01:33:10,040 --> 01:33:15,000
Nauvoo period is probably
operating at his highest point,

1681
01:33:15,000 --> 01:33:17,000
right?
He's been, he's been seasoned

1682
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:20,320
through experience.
We know that line upon line,

1683
01:33:20,320 --> 01:33:24,320
precept upon precept is a heavy
thing in Mormonism when you

1684
01:33:24,320 --> 01:33:29,920
start talking about progression.
And, and so to, to just discard

1685
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:32,160
that as bad.
Likewise, though, we can't just

1686
01:33:32,160 --> 01:33:36,480
discard the lessons of Kirtland
and the lessons of, of Missouri

1687
01:33:36,480 --> 01:33:40,400
and the lessons of of
Pennsylvania and New York,

1688
01:33:40,400 --> 01:33:42,840
right?
You, you have to, you have to

1689
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:46,000
understand that.
And so it, that would, that

1690
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:49,680
would be a tall order, but it,
but it, if it can happen, I'm,

1691
01:33:49,840 --> 01:33:52,280
I'm there for it.
But it would, it would be a tall

1692
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:56,040
order 'cause you're either going
to have to have a standard or

1693
01:33:56,040 --> 01:33:58,640
you're going to have to have a
lot of grace from person to

1694
01:33:58,640 --> 01:34:00,040
person.
Yeah.

1695
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:04,440
Which, you know, I, I don't mind
saying that that a bicker

1696
01:34:04,440 --> 01:34:06,760
tonight is part of the
Restoration.

1697
01:34:07,080 --> 01:34:09,840
I disagree with some of their
doctrine, right?

1698
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:12,360
They would disagree with some of
mine, and that's OK.

1699
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:14,040
I don't think we have to be
enemies in that.

1700
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:18,480
And I think this also goes to
what does Unity really look

1701
01:34:18,480 --> 01:34:21,400
like, right?
I think sometimes we all have

1702
01:34:21,400 --> 01:34:25,240
this idea of what, what Unity is
going to look like, but maybe

1703
01:34:25,240 --> 01:34:27,520
it's not quite what we're
thinking it is.

1704
01:34:28,920 --> 01:34:33,080
But I, I do want to it it that
would, that would be awesome to

1705
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:35,400
happen.
But I do think, I do think we

1706
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:38,200
have to acknowledge the
doctrinal differences and figure

1707
01:34:38,200 --> 01:34:40,480
out how to navigate those.
Certainly.

1708
01:34:40,720 --> 01:34:44,800
So, So what was it that as you
started the podcast, what were

1709
01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:47,000
some of the challenges you first
encountered?

1710
01:34:48,320 --> 01:34:51,640
Well, I think when I first
started, it was interesting

1711
01:34:51,640 --> 01:34:56,680
because I actually my first
interactions with the

1712
01:34:56,680 --> 01:35:00,280
restoration when I was starting,
before I started up my channel

1713
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:03,480
was primarily people
independence, independence based

1714
01:35:03,480 --> 01:35:07,600
Saints.
I, I, what happened was I, I was

1715
01:35:07,600 --> 01:35:11,440
going to launch my channel and
before I did, I actually

1716
01:35:11,440 --> 01:35:18,640
participated in a, a weekly zoom
call with the community of

1717
01:35:18,640 --> 01:35:21,200
Christ.
That was book club that was

1718
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:28,880
doing a, a, we were, we were
reading the book Joseph Smith,

1719
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:35,280
the third Pragmatic Prophet by
Rodger Launius, and we did a

1720
01:35:35,280 --> 01:35:37,680
couple chapters each week and I
introduced myself.

1721
01:35:37,680 --> 01:35:39,800
And that's when I first met
Lachlan Mackay and Barbara

1722
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:43,040
Walden, who are with the history
department in the church and

1723
01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:45,360
Lachlan, of course, being a
direct descendant of Joseph and

1724
01:35:46,200 --> 01:35:49,560
everything like that.
And so I was like, wow, you

1725
01:35:49,560 --> 01:35:52,400
know, maybe this is where maybe
I'm supposed to just be more

1726
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:58,000
like, like encountering, you
know, the, the community of

1727
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:00,720
Christ, which and, and the, and
that movement in general.

1728
01:36:01,200 --> 01:36:02,560
And the people were just so
lovely.

1729
01:36:02,560 --> 01:36:06,480
Lovely and engaging to me that I
always feel I have a soft spot

1730
01:36:06,480 --> 01:36:07,760
in my heart for the community of
Christ.

1731
01:36:08,320 --> 01:36:14,240
When I first started the
channel, what was so interesting

1732
01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:21,520
to me was that I had a couple
dozen subscribers and John

1733
01:36:21,520 --> 01:36:25,800
Dylan's radar, like when I had
like a couple dozen subscribers,

1734
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:29,080
we started communicating to each
other first.

1735
01:36:30,120 --> 01:36:33,960
This is I remember the first
night I'm talking to John de

1736
01:36:33,960 --> 01:36:37,160
Lynn on Reddit and you were
going back and forth and I was

1737
01:36:37,160 --> 01:36:39,480
like, Oh my gosh, like I can't.
I went to my mom the next

1738
01:36:39,480 --> 01:36:40,360
morning.
I said, mom, you wouldn't

1739
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:43,120
believe this.
I was in communication with with

1740
01:36:43,520 --> 01:36:46,760
John and I always tell people,
imagine starting a podcast.

1741
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:49,480
You have a couple dozen
subscribers and Joe Rogan is, is

1742
01:36:49,480 --> 01:36:52,120
engaging you that that's kind
right in our space.

1743
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:56,160
He's the Joe Rogan, right?
And then the next day, I get a

1744
01:36:56,160 --> 01:37:00,600
friend request from Sandra
Tanner on Facebook, like, well,

1745
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:02,200
how did I get on her radar
screen?

1746
01:37:02,200 --> 01:37:05,680
Right.
And, and so that's when I

1747
01:37:05,680 --> 01:37:09,000
realized like, oh, there might
be something special, something

1748
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:14,280
special here.
And, and so it was like, OK,

1749
01:37:14,280 --> 01:37:18,160
well, let's just continue.
And my mom caught this on early,

1750
01:37:18,160 --> 01:37:20,920
early on.
So when I was a young man, I was

1751
01:37:20,920 --> 01:37:25,200
a teenager and I was really
involved in politics during my

1752
01:37:25,200 --> 01:37:28,480
younger years.
And I was doing a house group

1753
01:37:28,480 --> 01:37:31,600
fellowship and I was giving a
presentation about why

1754
01:37:31,600 --> 01:37:33,440
Christians should get involved
in politics.

1755
01:37:34,120 --> 01:37:37,440
And there was a gentleman there
who's the vice president of one

1756
01:37:37,440 --> 01:37:44,000
of the banks in the community.
And he was he was in the in the

1757
01:37:44,000 --> 01:37:49,360
room as I get my presentation.
Now this is like this is like

1758
01:37:49,360 --> 01:37:51,640
pre cell phone days in one
sense, except he had one.

1759
01:37:52,120 --> 01:37:55,800
I get a call, he leaves and I'm
still at the house and he calls

1760
01:37:55,800 --> 01:37:57,960
the house and says I want to
talk to Steve.

1761
01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:05,320
So he says, I, I, the Lord gave
me a word for you and he said

1762
01:38:05,320 --> 01:38:07,720
that the work you're going to do
is like you're going to be a

1763
01:38:07,720 --> 01:38:09,760
modern day Daniel.
This is what he prophesied over

1764
01:38:09,760 --> 01:38:12,080
me.
And you will have the ear of

1765
01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:16,080
very powerful people.
So at this time we're like, and

1766
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:18,280
I told my parents about this and
like so and so gave you that

1767
01:38:18,280 --> 01:38:19,760
prophecy.
And this is a very prominent

1768
01:38:19,760 --> 01:38:22,200
individual in the community.
But back then a bank vice

1769
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:28,680
president was a big deal, you
know, and, and so I forgot about

1770
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:30,720
the prophecy.
I got burned out of politics.

1771
01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:33,840
By the time I was in my mid 20s,
run for office, did political

1772
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:35,680
consulting.
I was like, man, I, I don't know

1773
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:38,840
if I can do this anymore.
I get burned out kind of move

1774
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:40,000
away from that period of my
life.

1775
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:42,840
And it was early on, first
couple months of this channel.

1776
01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:45,880
And again, just dozens of
subscribers where my mom goes to

1777
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:48,840
me, she says the prophecy is
being fulfilled.

1778
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:53,600
Steve, we thought it was about
politics, but the prophecy was

1779
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:57,240
about your role in this in in
what you're supposed to do.

1780
01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:02,280
And since then, I've had
engagements with general

1781
01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:08,160
authorities President Elder
Anderson.

1782
01:39:08,440 --> 01:39:10,720
We've had two great
communications with each other.

1783
01:39:10,920 --> 01:39:14,160
He's watched the channel, he's
told me his own son told me that

1784
01:39:14,160 --> 01:39:17,280
he's he's watched my channel.
So I can tell you there's a

1785
01:39:17,280 --> 01:39:20,320
member of the Quorum of the 12
who's aware of my channel and

1786
01:39:20,320 --> 01:39:23,880
has watched it, but I've also
had engagements with all these

1787
01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:25,960
different leaders within the
movement.

1788
01:39:26,520 --> 01:39:31,160
And, and so I think on one
level, you know, people have,

1789
01:39:31,240 --> 01:39:33,240
you know, again, this is this is
where it gets really sensitive.

1790
01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:35,120
And actually I want to make it
very clear to you, Dave.

1791
01:39:36,320 --> 01:39:39,000
So less than a little over a
year from the time I started my

1792
01:39:39,000 --> 01:39:41,880
channel, I was a guest for a
full week on Mormon Stories.

1793
01:39:42,920 --> 01:39:45,880
But a few, few times a guest has
probably been given a full week

1794
01:39:45,880 --> 01:39:50,480
on that, on that platform.
And one of the things I did was

1795
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:53,760
I went to John and I said, you
know, when I was a little kid, I

1796
01:39:53,760 --> 01:39:57,040
went to a friend and said, and
this is like 3rd, 4th grade, I

1797
01:39:57,080 --> 01:39:58,800
said I would make a great cult
leader.

1798
01:40:00,400 --> 01:40:05,680
I, yes, I, I recognized that as
a child.

1799
01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:11,440
Well, I specifically went and
said that on Mormon Stories.

1800
01:40:12,040 --> 01:40:16,520
To serve as a guardrail to so
that I don't be tempted to

1801
01:40:16,520 --> 01:40:20,040
become that cult leader.
Because I can tell you that so

1802
01:40:20,040 --> 01:40:22,440
many people and I and I tell
people so that if I was a person

1803
01:40:22,440 --> 01:40:26,720
that was a malevolent person, I
could take advantage of people.

1804
01:40:27,040 --> 01:40:29,280
I've had people from just about
every movement of the

1805
01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:32,400
restoration tell me, I believe
that you're going to play a role

1806
01:40:32,400 --> 01:40:35,000
in bringing forth Zion, telling
that to me, an outsider.

1807
01:40:35,480 --> 01:40:38,280
I had another person go to me,
say I believe that you might be

1808
01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:40,680
Joseph Smith reincarnated.
This person believes in multiple

1809
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:43,600
mortal probations.
I've had all these different

1810
01:40:43,600 --> 01:40:45,720
manifestations of the
restoration tell me this.

1811
01:40:46,480 --> 01:40:51,920
If I wanted to become a prophet,
I could, but I don't believe

1812
01:40:51,920 --> 01:40:52,960
that.
That's my role.

1813
01:40:53,360 --> 01:40:58,120
But I also recognize again, the
charisma people projecting onto

1814
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:01,760
a person has happened to me
first hand, you know, where

1815
01:41:01,760 --> 01:41:03,440
people are projecting onto me
something.

1816
01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:06,080
So when somebody says we believe
you're going to bring forth

1817
01:41:06,160 --> 01:41:08,640
Zion, I don't know what that
means, but they're projecting

1818
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:12,120
that on to me.
So I just, you know, God told me

1819
01:41:12,120 --> 01:41:18,000
early on, he said, you know,
don't make any plans and and

1820
01:41:18,160 --> 01:41:20,320
just follow my lead.
So that's always that the

1821
01:41:20,320 --> 01:41:23,080
guiding principle that I've been
following early days.

1822
01:41:23,080 --> 01:41:24,880
Everything came easy.
The last year and a half has

1823
01:41:24,880 --> 01:41:28,440
been a real struggle for me.
I believe I'm in my just my

1824
01:41:28,440 --> 01:41:32,680
trial, my period trials that I'm
going through, but it's humbled

1825
01:41:32,680 --> 01:41:37,160
me and it's and it's kept me.
I think, I think, I think I'm

1826
01:41:37,160 --> 01:41:39,880
glad that I've experienced what
I've experienced over the last

1827
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:41,760
year and a half because I think
I needed that.

1828
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:45,240
I think sometimes being a male,
sometimes your ego can be stoked

1829
01:41:45,240 --> 01:41:47,000
and people are saying all these
things about you and you're

1830
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:48,840
having all these great guests on
and people are telling you how

1831
01:41:48,840 --> 01:41:51,120
wonderful you are.
I think I needed to have some

1832
01:41:51,120 --> 01:41:53,280
setbacks up in my life as a
reminder.

1833
01:41:53,800 --> 01:41:57,680
See, the problem was, is that
Dave, last year, little over a

1834
01:41:57,680 --> 01:41:59,320
year ago, I started making
plans.

1835
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:03,920
I had a lot of plans.
I, I, I was, I was, I was going

1836
01:42:03,920 --> 01:42:05,960
to be one of the keynote
speakers at Rob Meldrum's

1837
01:42:05,960 --> 01:42:07,840
conference.
I was going to then fly out to

1838
01:42:08,080 --> 01:42:10,520
speak at a Fuko Mormon rally in
Independence.

1839
01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:13,760
I was like, wow, this.
Then I woke up 1 morning, the

1840
01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:17,760
loud screaming in my ear and I
realized that my life had

1841
01:42:17,760 --> 01:42:21,440
changed because I, I lost almost
all my hearing in my right ear

1842
01:42:21,440 --> 01:42:24,640
and it was replaced with a loud
screaming of tinnitus.

1843
01:42:24,720 --> 01:42:27,520
Well, with hypokesis, which
means I'm sensitive to sound as

1844
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:29,840
well.
And I was bedridden for like a

1845
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:35,240
month and a half last year.
And I sat in bed thinking, God,

1846
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:37,760
I don't want it to end this way
because I, I couldn't, I

1847
01:42:37,760 --> 01:42:39,720
couldn't talk.
My mom and I would talk in

1848
01:42:39,720 --> 01:42:42,520
whispers or we'd text each other
because that, that's how bad it

1849
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:44,000
was.
I couldn't walk outside because

1850
01:42:44,000 --> 01:42:46,240
the sound of my neighbor.
I couldn't sit in my living room

1851
01:42:46,240 --> 01:42:48,120
because my, my neighbor's air
conditioner would kick on.

1852
01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:49,840
It would be too much for me to
have to go to my room.

1853
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:53,400
That's how bad it was.
So I had a lot of time to think

1854
01:42:53,400 --> 01:42:58,280
of things through and I was
like, OK, this is bad, but this

1855
01:42:58,280 --> 01:43:01,120
isn't nearly as bad as my
darkest times in my life.

1856
01:43:01,320 --> 01:43:03,680
So that was a good thing.
But I also realized like, you

1857
01:43:03,680 --> 01:43:07,000
know, God, I, I started making
plans and you told me not to.

1858
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:10,520
And so I, I feel like that was
kind of like him telling me,

1859
01:43:10,720 --> 01:43:12,360
Steve, I'm, I'm serious, don't
make plans.

1860
01:43:12,360 --> 01:43:14,160
And so that's kind of how I
operate.

1861
01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:16,760
So I try not to let this get to
my head.

1862
01:43:16,840 --> 01:43:20,880
I think maybe some of that was
happening and I started making

1863
01:43:20,880 --> 01:43:24,360
plans and God humbled me.
He literally brought me down to

1864
01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:25,880
my knees.
Right.

1865
01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:33,680
You know, that's why that's
sometimes people think I just

1866
01:43:33,680 --> 01:43:36,000
ignore.
And I don't necessarily ignore.

1867
01:43:36,480 --> 01:43:39,680
But what I do do is I never read
the comments, right?

1868
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:43,600
Because only two things are
going to happen, right?

1869
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:45,640
One is you're going to get an
ego boost.

1870
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:49,400
Nobody needs that.
Nobody or someone's going to say

1871
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:53,160
something really stupid and
you're going to be like OK, and

1872
01:43:53,160 --> 01:43:55,480
you're going to get involved in
a squabble that's going to make

1873
01:43:55,480 --> 01:43:59,000
you look silly too.
Just posting ghost bro, right?

1874
01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:02,880
Because like you'll drive
yourself nuts reading the

1875
01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:06,120
comments or nothing good comes
from that right?

1876
01:44:06,120 --> 01:44:07,760
I just.
I, I, I I do.

1877
01:44:07,760 --> 01:44:10,760
Read You're going to hate and
that's just all there is to it.

1878
01:44:11,960 --> 01:44:15,640
I, I do read the comments, but I
don't let them affect me.

1879
01:44:15,800 --> 01:44:19,000
And, and actually, the few times
I have engaged, especially like

1880
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:22,200
on Facebook or Reddit, it, it
was like, man, I just wasted a

1881
01:44:22,200 --> 01:44:25,080
lot of time here.
I like nothing good out of this

1882
01:44:25,080 --> 01:44:27,320
conversation.
So I refused to engage.

1883
01:44:27,320 --> 01:44:30,080
And actually, when people start
getting nasty with me, I'm like,

1884
01:44:31,160 --> 01:44:33,440
here's a zoom link.
You can say it to my face.

1885
01:44:33,440 --> 01:44:34,920
Are you man enough to say it to
my face?

1886
01:44:35,360 --> 01:44:38,920
It's the zoom link challenge.
And, and, and the only person

1887
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:42,160
I've done this dozens of times.
The only person that took me up

1888
01:44:42,160 --> 01:44:49,000
on that offer offer offer was
Chino Blanco, the founder of the

1889
01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:52,720
ex Mormon Reddit.
And we went on a zoom a couple

1890
01:44:52,720 --> 01:44:55,200
years ago, 2-3 years ago now,
because he had some said some

1891
01:44:55,200 --> 01:44:58,640
critical stuff of my to me and
we had a wonderful conversation.

1892
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:01,720
And last year right before
Sunstone, he came on my program

1893
01:45:01,720 --> 01:45:03,800
to give an oral history of the
ex Mormon Reddit.

1894
01:45:04,680 --> 01:45:07,480
And I think that's an important
episode because people need to

1895
01:45:07,480 --> 01:45:09,960
know like what what was the
early days like in this

1896
01:45:09,960 --> 01:45:11,760
movement?
And got to hear from one of the

1897
01:45:11,760 --> 01:45:14,800
early voices in this movement
and got a nice oral history of

1898
01:45:14,800 --> 01:45:16,880
the early days of the Reddit ex
Mormon Reddit.

1899
01:45:17,400 --> 01:45:19,360
And that's the only second
interview he's ever given.

1900
01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:21,360
He's gave his first interview,
the Mormon stories and he says

1901
01:45:21,360 --> 01:45:23,560
this will probably be the last
interview he'll ever give.

1902
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:28,080
So positive can even come out of
conflict if if people are

1903
01:45:28,080 --> 01:45:31,640
willing to have good faith
conversations and and shout out

1904
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:34,160
to him because he was willing to
have a good faith conversation

1905
01:45:34,160 --> 01:45:37,080
with me.
And and that's all I'm striving

1906
01:45:37,080 --> 01:45:38,640
for.
Dude is that.

1907
01:45:38,640 --> 01:45:41,520
But yeah, that's The thing is it
just, you know, I get people

1908
01:45:41,520 --> 01:45:44,840
like want some some some people
send me screenshots of comments

1909
01:45:44,840 --> 01:45:46,880
that were sent about them and
I'm like on a video.

1910
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:51,480
And it was being so innocuous.
I'm like, OK, like, but you are

1911
01:45:51,480 --> 01:45:53,680
in this space.
You chose to come into this

1912
01:45:53,680 --> 01:45:55,720
space.
So you need to put your big boy

1913
01:45:55,720 --> 01:45:58,320
pants on and and deal with it.
You gotta have some tough skin.

1914
01:45:59,080 --> 01:46:01,080
You gotta have some tough skin.
The things that have been said

1915
01:46:01,080 --> 01:46:04,360
about me are horrendous.
The accusations made against me

1916
01:46:04,360 --> 01:46:10,280
have been disgusting and vile.
And I'm, I still plod along and

1917
01:46:10,280 --> 01:46:13,720
I, I feel hurt sometimes by it,
but I just, I just move on.

1918
01:46:14,120 --> 01:46:16,840
And it, it's a very tough space
to be in, especially when you're

1919
01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:20,040
trying to facilitate
conversations between warring,

1920
01:46:20,040 --> 01:46:22,160
warring factions.
And sometimes if those

1921
01:46:22,160 --> 01:46:26,120
conversations go sideways, I, I
become collateral damage or you

1922
01:46:26,120 --> 01:46:28,560
know, where those, they'll
attack me, even though if I'm

1923
01:46:28,560 --> 01:46:32,160
just delivering the message or
I'm just trying to facilitate

1924
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:34,160
stuff.
So it can, it can be hurtful

1925
01:46:34,160 --> 01:46:39,040
too, to be in this, in this
neutral space that I occupy in

1926
01:46:39,040 --> 01:46:42,840
this, in this world.
And but it it's not an easy,

1927
01:46:43,040 --> 01:46:45,680
it's not an easy space to be in
at all.

1928
01:46:45,680 --> 01:46:47,800
It can be very stressful at
times as well.

1929
01:46:47,800 --> 01:46:54,360
Oh, absolutely.
No, There's, there's, I've said

1930
01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:58,080
this, if you're going to podcast
about Mormonism, I hope you

1931
01:46:58,080 --> 01:47:02,080
approach it as a calling, Right.
I know you, you, you made

1932
01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:05,480
allusions to that.
I definitely felt that way.

1933
01:47:05,480 --> 01:47:09,560
And and I think you have to,
right, because look, you are

1934
01:47:09,560 --> 01:47:11,840
going to get some pushback.
You're going to get some arrows

1935
01:47:11,840 --> 01:47:14,960
flowing your direction.
It's just the price of doing

1936
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:17,480
business.
And then you got to have some

1937
01:47:17,480 --> 01:47:20,320
tough skin to be able just to
let that I've told people, look,

1938
01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:23,080
I'm fine with you insulting me
because someday I'm going to

1939
01:47:23,080 --> 01:47:25,680
publish a book of all the best
and wittiest insults.

1940
01:47:25,960 --> 01:47:28,440
So if you're going to do it,
just come with some wit and some

1941
01:47:28,440 --> 01:47:31,200
humor, really make it worth my
while to read.

1942
01:47:31,400 --> 01:47:34,560
Don't, don't, don't, don't do
that halfway.

1943
01:47:34,560 --> 01:47:38,520
Go go all in.
But you know, no, you do have to

1944
01:47:38,520 --> 01:47:41,040
have some tough skin.
Let's wrap up with this one.

1945
01:47:41,040 --> 01:47:43,480
Where do you think?
What's your hopes for the

1946
01:47:43,480 --> 01:47:50,320
channel?
You know, I feel like the

1947
01:47:50,320 --> 01:47:54,960
channel and maybe not
everybody's going to agree with

1948
01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:59,120
this, but I think that I'm in
the exact same spot that I was

1949
01:47:59,120 --> 01:48:01,360
in when I first turned on the
camera and did my very first

1950
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:04,760
book review.
I think my heart's in the same

1951
01:48:04,760 --> 01:48:11,000
space.
I think that if you read my, if

1952
01:48:11,000 --> 01:48:15,000
you go on my description of my
channel, I wrote that before I

1953
01:48:15,000 --> 01:48:17,400
started filming and doing a
channel, but I kind of wrote

1954
01:48:17,400 --> 01:48:19,320
down, OK, this is what the
channel is going to be about.

1955
01:48:19,880 --> 01:48:23,360
And essentially it is that it's,
it's, it's, it's, it's, I don't

1956
01:48:23,360 --> 01:48:27,160
feel like I've deviated from
what the channel was what my,

1957
01:48:27,200 --> 01:48:29,000
where I thought the channel was
going to play a role.

1958
01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:34,880
Now, I had no idea that, look,
my goal was my goal, if you

1959
01:48:34,880 --> 01:48:38,640
will, my plans, if you will, was
there's this guy named that had

1960
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:43,640
a YouTube channel, he's since
moved to Missouri called LDS

1961
01:48:43,640 --> 01:48:46,280
Book Reviews.
And this guy had like 200

1962
01:48:46,280 --> 01:48:48,840
subscribers.
And I thought to myself, well,

1963
01:48:48,840 --> 01:48:51,800
let me look up and see if Mormon
book reviews is, is, is

1964
01:48:52,160 --> 01:48:53,760
available.
And it was and then also the

1965
01:48:53,760 --> 01:48:58,720
domain name.
So I got those and I was like,

1966
01:48:58,720 --> 01:49:01,240
wow, wouldn't it be great to
have a YouTube channel with a

1967
01:49:01,240 --> 01:49:03,680
couple 100 subscribers and I can
just talk about the books in my

1968
01:49:03,680 --> 01:49:06,240
collection.
And even in my very first

1969
01:49:06,240 --> 01:49:08,960
episode I said, and maybe I'll
even occasionally interview

1970
01:49:08,960 --> 01:49:11,400
people.
Well, very quickly I realized

1971
01:49:11,400 --> 01:49:13,560
that it wasn't the book reviews
people were interested in.

1972
01:49:14,000 --> 01:49:15,360
They were interested in the
interviews.

1973
01:49:15,960 --> 01:49:18,080
I never, I never interviewed
anybody.

1974
01:49:18,080 --> 01:49:21,160
So if you want to go and see,
the very first time I ever

1975
01:49:21,160 --> 01:49:24,320
interviewed somebody period was
when I had Rick Benedon of

1976
01:49:24,320 --> 01:49:27,880
Gospel Tangents.
At that moment, I had no idea if

1977
01:49:27,880 --> 01:49:32,680
I had any talent for it.
And you know, but I, I did OK.

1978
01:49:33,120 --> 01:49:36,040
And I was surprised because I
never, I have no experience

1979
01:49:36,160 --> 01:49:39,560
interviewing people.
And so where do I see this

1980
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:41,320
channel going?
I know I, I think it continues

1981
01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:44,880
on the trajectory that it's in,
which is to continue to strive

1982
01:49:45,400 --> 01:49:52,040
to have dialogue, be be civil.
You know, that panel discussion

1983
01:49:52,040 --> 01:49:54,920
you were on a couple weeks ago,
like people said, no other

1984
01:49:54,920 --> 01:49:57,680
channel could have put together
a panel discussion like that

1985
01:49:57,680 --> 01:50:01,200
with that group of people.
And so I just want to strive to

1986
01:50:01,240 --> 01:50:03,960
have those conversations,
whether they're on camera or off

1987
01:50:03,960 --> 01:50:12,400
camera and to continue to expose
people to ideas.

1988
01:50:12,400 --> 01:50:14,840
So, so, so there's a lot of
Latter Day Saints because my

1989
01:50:14,840 --> 01:50:17,440
largest single group, the people
who watch the channel are

1990
01:50:17,600 --> 01:50:19,480
members of the Church of Jesus
Christ, Latter Day Saints.

1991
01:50:20,200 --> 01:50:26,360
And to hear a feminist
perspective on Mother Heavenly

1992
01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:29,720
Mother, to hear a, a, a
fundamentalist perspective on

1993
01:50:29,720 --> 01:50:33,440
Heavenly Mothers, to hear
different voices.

1994
01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:36,480
They're being exposed to the
ideas for the probably for the

1995
01:50:36,480 --> 01:50:39,720
first time.
And, and so I, I take great,

1996
01:50:39,840 --> 01:50:43,240
great pride, if you will, and
it's a real privileged place to

1997
01:50:43,240 --> 01:50:46,680
be to be able to put together
these unique groups of people

1998
01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:50,480
with different voices and have
people be able to be exposed to

1999
01:50:50,480 --> 01:50:52,880
different ideas that I think
it's so more important I tell

2000
01:50:52,880 --> 01:50:56,560
people, I said, I am here to
challenge your faith, not to

2001
01:50:56,760 --> 01:50:58,600
hurt your faith, but to
strengthen your faith.

2002
01:50:59,040 --> 01:51:01,320
And challenging can be a good
thing.

2003
01:51:01,520 --> 01:51:04,080
Get the wheels turning, make you
start questioning things.

2004
01:51:04,440 --> 01:51:07,520
Don't just take everything like
that one airline pilot.

2005
01:51:07,800 --> 01:51:09,640
He was just accepting what was
being told.

2006
01:51:09,640 --> 01:51:12,880
And then he picks up a church
history book and realizes like,

2007
01:51:12,880 --> 01:51:16,400
this is nothing like I was told
and ends up leaving.

2008
01:51:16,640 --> 01:51:21,000
So I want to I want to help
people, maybe strengthen their

2009
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:23,840
shelves.
I want people to, you know, I, I

2010
01:51:23,840 --> 01:51:26,200
had this great, I was actually
interviewed by, well, I was on

2011
01:51:26,200 --> 01:51:29,920
Jim Bennett's program Inside Out
with Ian Wilkes was the main

2012
01:51:29,920 --> 01:51:31,560
host on that episode.
And it was Jim and I talking

2013
01:51:31,560 --> 01:51:35,000
about the Book of Mormon.
And I talk a lot about a lot of

2014
01:51:35,000 --> 01:51:36,400
different things, different
perspectives.

2015
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:39,360
Is this a fictional account?
Is this an ancient record?

2016
01:51:39,360 --> 01:51:41,000
Is this a 19th century
production?

2017
01:51:41,000 --> 01:51:43,000
What about the plates?
And we talked about it.

2018
01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:44,480
We took all these different
angles.

2019
01:51:44,960 --> 01:51:46,360
And afterwards I was talking to
Ian.

2020
01:51:46,360 --> 01:51:48,800
I said, Ian, I said, what I
would like to do is when this

2021
01:51:48,800 --> 01:51:53,040
episode is released, my hope is,
is that we'll be hearing from

2022
01:51:53,040 --> 01:51:55,800
people who will say, I was
almost out of the church.

2023
01:51:56,480 --> 01:51:59,920
But now you've given me a way to
approach the Book of Mormon that

2024
01:52:00,720 --> 01:52:02,880
bolsters my faith and is able to
keep me in.

2025
01:52:03,440 --> 01:52:08,040
And that would be a success
story because I, I tell people I

2026
01:52:08,040 --> 01:52:10,400
said I, I don't want, I don't
want somebody to leave the

2027
01:52:10,400 --> 01:52:13,360
church because of something I
said, said it did on my channel,

2028
01:52:13,920 --> 01:52:16,600
because I know what that means.
And I got, I got nailed by the

2029
01:52:16,640 --> 01:52:18,280
Christian apologist for saying
that.

2030
01:52:18,800 --> 01:52:20,240
But they, but they don't, they
don't.

2031
01:52:20,400 --> 01:52:22,440
They're just using AI and doing
quote mining on me.

2032
01:52:22,440 --> 01:52:24,240
They're not actually doing any
research, even though research

2033
01:52:24,240 --> 01:52:28,200
is in the name.
What I was saying was if

2034
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:30,080
somebody were to leave the
church because of something I

2035
01:52:30,080 --> 01:52:32,800
said or did, I understand what
that means.

2036
01:52:33,320 --> 01:52:36,480
Potential job loss, Maybe they
get shunned from their family,

2037
01:52:37,160 --> 01:52:40,560
maybe they get divorced.
Maybe all this stuff happens

2038
01:52:40,720 --> 01:52:42,800
because of some some statement I
said on my channel.

2039
01:52:42,800 --> 01:52:44,960
No, I don't want to throw
somebody's life in that

2040
01:52:45,360 --> 01:52:48,160
predicament.
I want them to be informed about

2041
01:52:48,160 --> 01:52:51,480
this stuff so that they don't
have their shelves break.

2042
01:52:51,880 --> 01:52:55,160
Like, I want them to be exposed
to all these different ideas and

2043
01:52:55,160 --> 01:52:58,920
realize that a lot of things
that they were told isn't

2044
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:02,600
necessarily correct or maybe has
been misrepresented to them.

2045
01:53:03,080 --> 01:53:07,480
And I, I said, listen, I can
still engage the restoration and

2046
01:53:07,480 --> 01:53:12,240
look at all the warts and flaws
and then still walk away with an

2047
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:17,120
admiration for Joseph Smith, a
love for the Book of Mormon, and

2048
01:53:17,120 --> 01:53:20,760
more importantly, a love for the
people of the Restoration.

2049
01:53:21,120 --> 01:53:24,160
So I guess my goal is, is for
people just to see how much I

2050
01:53:24,160 --> 01:53:27,880
love and appreciate them.
And I want to be a source for

2051
01:53:27,880 --> 01:53:30,440
them to, you know, I've had
Latter Day Saints tell me I

2052
01:53:30,440 --> 01:53:32,360
watch your channel because at
any moment the Holy Ghost might

2053
01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:34,200
show up.
Well, that that's an honor and a

2054
01:53:34,200 --> 01:53:37,000
privilege to be able to also
spiritually affect the lives of

2055
01:53:37,000 --> 01:53:38,800
people.
Originally, this is going to be

2056
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:42,520
a secular scholarly channel, but
then I had a phone call from a

2057
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:46,240
Bishop or from the apostle in
Independence, MO, who started

2058
01:53:46,240 --> 01:53:47,600
telling me about the songs as I
am.

2059
01:53:47,600 --> 01:53:51,920
The supernaturally created hymn
book made me realize at that

2060
01:53:51,920 --> 01:53:56,440
moment like, oh, yes, secular,
the, yes, scholarly, but we also

2061
01:53:56,440 --> 01:53:59,880
have make room for the Spirit.
And so that's what we continue

2062
01:53:59,880 --> 01:54:02,160
to do here at NPR.
Yep, no.

2063
01:54:02,240 --> 01:54:06,600
And, and look, I, I will say
this, I, I think that there's

2064
01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:11,480
probably no other religion in
Christianity that seems to

2065
01:54:11,480 --> 01:54:18,640
incorporate everything from
doctrine to, to almost theocracy

2066
01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:21,400
at times.
And then the history that goes

2067
01:54:21,400 --> 01:54:24,400
along that is fascinating.
So there's no, there's no,

2068
01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:27,080
there's no lack of material,
right?

2069
01:54:27,400 --> 01:54:30,280
I know when I started mine, I'm
like, look, I go a year, been a

2070
01:54:30,280 --> 01:54:38,240
success, right?
Going now on 4 and you know, it

2071
01:54:38,240 --> 01:54:41,840
blew up, right?
And, and so I, I get it, I get

2072
01:54:41,840 --> 01:54:43,040
it.
I get exactly what you're

2073
01:54:43,040 --> 01:54:47,880
talking about.
And I've also learned this, if

2074
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:52,120
I've made everybody mad at me,
chances are I'm probably over

2075
01:54:52,120 --> 01:54:55,480
the target a little bit, right
when everybody is upset.

2076
01:54:56,040 --> 01:55:00,000
OK, I obviously I've, I've poked
a button there that everybody's

2077
01:55:00,000 --> 01:55:02,160
sensitive to and probably
deserves looked at.

2078
01:55:02,520 --> 01:55:05,440
So.
But anyway, it's fun stuff.

2079
01:55:06,320 --> 01:55:09,480
Well, Dave, I just want to close
with just, I, I want to say

2080
01:55:09,480 --> 01:55:12,720
something I think that
important, especially for this

2081
01:55:12,800 --> 01:55:15,760
this particular podcast.
Well, first of all, I want to

2082
01:55:15,760 --> 01:55:17,800
have you back on my channel
again, by the way, So you're

2083
01:55:17,800 --> 01:55:18,920
open, you're invited to the
console.

2084
01:55:18,920 --> 01:55:20,760
Let's plan.
I appreciate that you you,

2085
01:55:21,040 --> 01:55:22,400
you're welcome back here
anytime.

2086
01:55:23,240 --> 01:55:26,200
I also just wanted to say that,
you know, I tell people, I said

2087
01:55:26,600 --> 01:55:30,600
when I, I've spent years,
decades really studying Rep

2088
01:55:30,600 --> 01:55:36,080
Mormonism, history, theology.
And so most of what I've learned

2089
01:55:36,800 --> 01:55:40,400
about Mormonism was before I
started this channel, but the

2090
01:55:40,400 --> 01:55:46,240
one area that I've learned more
about is polygamy since I

2091
01:55:46,240 --> 01:55:49,080
started the channel.
And I tell people one of the

2092
01:55:49,080 --> 01:55:54,280
most important moments of my
channel was a Saturday night in

2093
01:55:54,280 --> 01:55:57,680
which there's was an engagement.
And of course, I had been

2094
01:55:57,680 --> 01:56:01,160
interviewing Benjamin Schaefer.
And I found them to be a really

2095
01:56:01,160 --> 01:56:02,960
pleasant guy.
I remember the first time I ever

2096
01:56:02,960 --> 01:56:05,080
met him, I was that it was just
a few months into the channel.

2097
01:56:05,400 --> 01:56:08,200
I read he was at the firm
foundation manning a booth.

2098
01:56:08,880 --> 01:56:11,560
I'm like, I know who you are.
I watched you on gospel

2099
01:56:11,560 --> 01:56:13,480
tangents.
And he's like, OK, Steve, he

2100
01:56:13,480 --> 01:56:15,480
said just don't tell him that
I'm, you know, let anybody know

2101
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:17,680
what you know, that I'm a
polygamist.

2102
01:56:17,680 --> 01:56:19,640
I say, don't worry, it's our
secret, you know.

2103
01:56:20,520 --> 01:56:23,800
And then that led to us doing a
series of interviews.

2104
01:56:24,360 --> 01:56:29,160
And then that led for there to
be a conversation with members

2105
01:56:29,200 --> 01:56:31,600
of Christ branch, which of
course, at the time you were a

2106
01:56:31,720 --> 01:56:34,840
member of.
And I didn't know.

2107
01:56:34,840 --> 01:56:37,560
It was like they lined him up
and just put him in front of me

2108
01:56:37,560 --> 01:56:41,600
and talk from like a 17 year old
teenage girl to the last plural

2109
01:56:41,600 --> 01:56:44,680
wife of the founding prophet of
the church who was in her mid to

2110
01:56:44,680 --> 01:56:46,920
upper 80s and everybody in
between.

2111
01:56:48,000 --> 01:56:52,120
And I also remember seeing you
in the background, this big guy

2112
01:56:52,120 --> 01:56:55,760
sitting back there and it seemed
like like Benjamin was kind of

2113
01:56:55,760 --> 01:56:59,360
like, you know, somebody else
would come in and say, wait,

2114
01:56:59,440 --> 01:57:01,480
wait, wait.
And then finally, you got on

2115
01:57:01,480 --> 01:57:02,960
there and we had a great
conversation.

2116
01:57:03,440 --> 01:57:05,440
And so I was honored and
privileged to have those

2117
01:57:05,440 --> 01:57:07,960
conversations because I realized
that was when I really realized

2118
01:57:07,960 --> 01:57:14,680
that polygamists or
fundamentalists are really truly

2119
01:57:14,680 --> 01:57:16,480
some of the most wonderful
people I've engaged in

2120
01:57:16,480 --> 01:57:19,320
restoration.
Well, I appreciate that and and

2121
01:57:19,320 --> 01:57:21,520
it really.
Opened my eyes and I think that

2122
01:57:21,520 --> 01:57:25,360
also led to some great
conversations that I've had with

2123
01:57:27,440 --> 01:57:31,600
oh, Ann Wilde, the first wife of
Ogden Kraut.

2124
01:57:32,320 --> 01:57:39,720
I had Liz Phillips come on a few
times to talk about the AUB and

2125
01:57:39,840 --> 01:57:44,640
her grandfather Rulon Allred.
I've had Ivan Kraut's son come

2126
01:57:44,640 --> 01:57:48,480
on and talk about some really
important stuff, including about

2127
01:57:48,480 --> 01:57:52,440
the dream mine.
And, and so it really opened up

2128
01:57:52,440 --> 01:57:57,680
to me this world that I realized
that a lot of the stuff that had

2129
01:57:57,680 --> 01:58:02,640
been said about your people have
been it's, it's like liable is

2130
01:58:02,640 --> 01:58:04,960
to say the least.
And, and I think you guys have

2131
01:58:05,000 --> 01:58:08,600
been really mistreated unfairly
and misrepresented.

2132
01:58:09,040 --> 01:58:13,680
And so I just want to say that
my engagement with you and

2133
01:58:13,840 --> 01:58:16,760
people in your movement have
been a real blessing in my life.

2134
01:58:16,760 --> 01:58:18,200
Oh.
Well, I appreciate.

2135
01:58:18,200 --> 01:58:21,960
That I'll forever be grateful to
the love that's been extended to

2136
01:58:21,960 --> 01:58:24,200
me.
And I know that they have many

2137
01:58:24,200 --> 01:58:27,760
people in the fundamentalist
community appreciate what I'm

2138
01:58:27,760 --> 01:58:29,920
doing here too.
So I just want to honor, honor

2139
01:58:29,920 --> 01:58:32,360
you as as a as a.
People, I appreciate that.

2140
01:58:32,360 --> 01:58:36,440
And you know, I think some of
this it, it's interesting,

2141
01:58:36,440 --> 01:58:40,520
right, Because I, I come, I come
to fundamentalism, not being a

2142
01:58:40,520 --> 01:58:46,160
Mormon of of any stripe, right?
I, I, I was baptized into the

2143
01:58:46,160 --> 01:58:50,480
LDS church as a young man,
worked the program there.

2144
01:58:53,640 --> 01:58:56,640
And so when I come into
fundamentalism, I, I, it's, it's

2145
01:58:56,640 --> 01:58:59,200
easy to see that there's a
little bit of societal scarring

2146
01:58:59,200 --> 01:59:01,000
that has happened, right?
These are people who have had

2147
01:59:01,000 --> 01:59:04,640
their kids taken away.
And so we a lot, a lot of them,

2148
01:59:04,800 --> 01:59:08,320
a lot of us weren't necessarily
lining up to be public, right?

2149
01:59:08,360 --> 01:59:11,120
Because, well, we know how that
game ends.

2150
01:59:12,240 --> 01:59:15,520
And it, it's hard, it's hard to
break that down.

2151
01:59:15,520 --> 01:59:21,480
But, but I think because of what
Warren Jeffs did and look, I

2152
01:59:21,480 --> 01:59:24,080
mean, I had Warren's son on the
program, right?

2153
01:59:24,320 --> 01:59:27,800
Who who found his way back to
the faith despite everything his

2154
01:59:27,800 --> 01:59:33,760
dad had done.
They, you know, he did some

2155
01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:36,120
damage, right?
But I do believe that we're in a

2156
01:59:36,120 --> 01:59:41,160
time now where, quite frankly,
our voices are kind of needed,

2157
01:59:41,160 --> 01:59:43,960
right?
Not mine, but our voices

2158
01:59:43,960 --> 01:59:47,640
collectively, because I do think
that it's interesting, I think

2159
01:59:47,640 --> 01:59:51,480
we, the, I think the LDS Church
especially is in a place where

2160
01:59:52,400 --> 01:59:54,800
you almost need a little bit of
fundamentalism in there to

2161
01:59:54,840 --> 01:59:57,720
address some of these topics
that quite frankly seem to have

2162
01:59:57,720 --> 02:00:00,920
been forgotten by all but
scholars now, right?

2163
02:00:01,280 --> 02:00:07,720
The things that scholars tend to
know, a lot of them are everyday

2164
02:00:07,720 --> 02:00:09,920
things that fundamentalists
know, right?

2165
02:00:10,520 --> 02:00:12,960
Things like women in the
priesthood, Heavenly Mother,

2166
02:00:12,960 --> 02:00:14,920
those are things we all have
answers on.

2167
02:00:14,920 --> 02:00:19,720
If, if someone wants that
answer, it's just it's an

2168
02:00:19,720 --> 02:00:21,600
interesting time.
And I think our voices are

2169
02:00:21,600 --> 02:00:23,560
needing that needed now more
than ever.

2170
02:00:24,320 --> 02:00:26,760
But it's come with its own
challenges.

2171
02:00:26,760 --> 02:00:30,600
And so venues like yours is
allowed, allowed that message to

2172
02:00:30,600 --> 02:00:32,600
be out that, hey, we're not all
Warren Jeffs.

2173
02:00:33,800 --> 02:00:36,960
Yes, I Yep, Yep.
I certainly, I certainly hope

2174
02:00:37,040 --> 02:00:38,400
that's.
That was huge.

2175
02:00:38,560 --> 02:00:41,120
So yeah.
Yeah, no, I, I appreciate that.

2176
02:00:41,120 --> 02:00:44,040
And yeah, I, I really feel like
that's, you know, I, I wouldn't

2177
02:00:44,040 --> 02:00:46,360
have imagined when I was engaged
in the community of Christ that

2178
02:00:46,360 --> 02:00:49,720
I would then be talking to all
these fundamentalists.

2179
02:00:49,720 --> 02:00:52,360
You know, it's just, it's
amazing the diversity within the

2180
02:00:52,360 --> 02:00:55,120
movement and all that.
And so, yeah, it's been a, it's

2181
02:00:55,120 --> 02:00:56,800
been a real privilege to be in
the space.

2182
02:00:57,160 --> 02:01:00,720
You know, I feel people, God, I,
I feel like God said, you know,

2183
02:01:00,720 --> 02:01:03,080
like what?
No, I not, God never said this,

2184
02:01:03,080 --> 02:01:05,640
but I said this myself.
I said, you know, maybe I'm only

2185
02:01:05,640 --> 02:01:08,280
going to do this for a season.
Maybe the door will be shut.

2186
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:10,600
So I don't know how much longer
this goes.

2187
02:01:10,600 --> 02:01:13,120
I hope that it continues.
I hope I do this for the rest of

2188
02:01:13,120 --> 02:01:15,720
my life.
But if God tells me it's time to

2189
02:01:15,720 --> 02:01:19,560
move on, then I'll move on.
But I hope to be in, I hope to

2190
02:01:19,560 --> 02:01:22,880
be a voice in this in this
world, and I hope to continue to

2191
02:01:22,880 --> 02:01:25,840
give, give voice to the
voiceless when a lot of people

2192
02:01:25,840 --> 02:01:27,480
don't.
You know, I can book any big

2193
02:01:27,480 --> 02:01:31,280
name I want, but I, I'm more
interested in having people on

2194
02:01:31,280 --> 02:01:32,960
it.
Nobody's ever heard of to give

2195
02:01:32,960 --> 02:01:36,160
their story, their position,
their, their, their views on

2196
02:01:36,160 --> 02:01:37,920
things.
That that to me, I think is, is

2197
02:01:37,920 --> 02:01:41,320
much more I, I, I get more joy
in that than.

2198
02:01:41,320 --> 02:01:44,040
More than anything, Absolutely,
absolutely.

2199
02:01:44,040 --> 02:01:45,920
Well bro, it was fun.
We should do it again.

2200
02:01:46,720 --> 02:01:47,600
Yeah, this is fun.
Thanks.

2201
02:01:47,600 --> 02:01:49,920
I love this kind of stuff.
I love open-ended conversations

2202
02:01:49,920 --> 02:01:52,120
and this was fun.
So thank you so much for having

2203
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:53,640
me on today.
You bet.

2204
02:01:53,960 --> 02:01:56,480
Let's do it again.
Stick around for 5 minutes.

2205
02:01:56,640 --> 02:02:40,240
Bye everybody.
The.

2206
02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:53,560
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

Episode #196: A Conversation W/Steve Pynakker Host of Mormon Book Reviews

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