July 12, 2025

Episode #192: Seeking God With Nothing Held Back W/Braxton Bogard

Episode #192: Seeking God With Nothing Held Back W/Braxton Bogard

On this episode I sit down and have a conversation with Braxton Bogard as we explore his faith journey from his childhood in Kentucky in the Campbellite faith tradition, to his time in Bible College, his proselyting ministry in France, his conversion to the Mormonism and joining the LDS Church, his discovery of Orthodox Mormon teachings, and his excommunication from the LDS Church just weeks before the LDS acknowledgement of the 1886 Revelation. All along the way Braxton and I talk about principles and concepts of the Restored Gospel. Braxton throughout this interview doesn't hold back and at times isn't afraid to show his heart on these things. Buckle up for a powerhouse of an episode.

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The you're listening to the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Braxton How's it going, man?
It's absolutely going great.

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How are you, Sir?
I'm doing good, dude.

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You had a heck of a ride as far
as your faith journey.

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I mean, like there's some of us
that that come into this whole

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Mormon thing cold, but dude,
you've like, you've seen some

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stuff.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.

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And I'll tell you, especially
the last few months, last few

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weeks has been probably some of
the more intense, at least

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personally.
So it's been wild.

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That's all I can say.
Right.

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So now were you, were you born a
Mormon?

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Did you convert to Mormonism?
I mean what what?

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What's your faith background
like?

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Great question.
So no, I did not grow up a

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Mormon.
In fact, I didn't know anything

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about Mormonism until well into
my high school years.

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You know, I think throughout
elementary school, middle

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school, we might have had some
history lessons, very brief,

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like 5 minutes talking about
some guy with a golden plates in

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a Bible and getting murdered,
and then this other guy taking

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up and going out West.
But that's about the extent of

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what I knew of Mormonism.
I couldn't tell you a name of

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the church or its scriptures or
any of its beliefs.

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It wasn't until later on that I
knew about it.

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Gotcha.
And So what was your, did you

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have a faith tradition growing
up or was your family not really

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religious at all?
What what, what was your

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exposure like to to God and
religion and all sorts of

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things?
Sure, I I was.

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I was born of goodly parents who
were really great folks and also

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raised part of my life by my
grandparents, who were really

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the ones who made sure that I
had a religious foundation.

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I grew up in a faith not
everyone knows about.

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We've only got about a million
members in the entire world

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called the Campbellite faith
movement.

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Those of you who are familiar
with Mormonism, obviously you

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know the story of Cindy Rigdon,
who was a Campbellite before he

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came into into the church.
In fact, Alexander Campbell was

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the one who baptized him.
The founder of the Campbellite

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movement baptized him into that
movement.

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And of course, as you know,
Sidney Riggan was one of its

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most prominent preachers in the
19th century.

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So I grew up there in the
churches of Christ as a more

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traditional branch.
You have the the First Christian

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Church or disciples of Christ
that are part of that heritage,

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as well as the as the churches
of Christ, which are believe in

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only going by the Bible.
They call themselves

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restorationists in the sense
that they wanted to restore the

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New Testament church.
No affiliation with Mormonism.

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In fact, a bitter opposition to
Mormonism because of some

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fallouts with Cindy Riggin and
Alexander Campbell.

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And yeah, they, they just
believed in in following the

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Bible as it, as it was written,
not making any changes or

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adjustments.
And that can go pretty far in

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Campbell, I believe to where
some churches in that movement

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think, OK, the Bible doesn't
mention that you can have

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kitchens in your church.
So therefore it's against the

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Bible to have kitchens attached
to your church building.

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It's very interesting heritage
to grow up in so.

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Of all the things you could,
like, pick out, right?

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Like, I can't imagine kitchen,
you know, churches with kitchens

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have got to be up there, right?
Like that.

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That one makes me laugh.
It's interesting and, and how

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about I've seen churches in our
movement divide over whether the

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table where the Lord's Supper is
blessed can be placed, ought to

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be placed in the front of the
church building or in the back

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of like the, you know, the area.
Very, very strange.

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I love those people to death.
One of the things that the

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Campbellite movement taught me
was it an appreciation for the

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word of God to love, love his
word and cherish it.

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But at the same time, yeah,
there are definitely some

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strange quirks that my I still
get a good laugh at every now

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and again.
You know, me telling somebody

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else's religion has strange
quirks when I have two wives, I,

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I just don't I, I prefer, I
prefer not to be the guy to be

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casting stones while I live in a
glass house, but whatever.

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So it is interesting though,
because like we hear sometimes

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of scientists, scientific
discoveries happening almost

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simultaneously in different
parts of the world, right?

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And what I find interesting is
that sometimes we see this

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religiously as well, right?
And so you have Joseph Smith,

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who is a restorer, right?
He, he's about restoring.

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He's not a a reformer or
anything like that.

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And it's interesting because
that time period does seem to

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produce a few guys who who or
groups of people who want to

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restore things right now.
It usually ends up going off the

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rails pretty quick because I
think if you were to try to

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restore something off of the
Bible alone, you're going to

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have a lot of holes, right?
Theologically, just because, you

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know, that's that's the nature
of the scripture that's been

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handed down.
So it is all.

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Scripture is foreign to the text
of the Bible, right?

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Absolutely, Absolutely, 100%
yeah.

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Sola scriptoro in, in, in this
instant would not get you very

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far, I don't think, right.
I mean, it could carry you for

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quite a ways, but to to kind of
finish the job, I would think it

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it would be a little tough.
But regardless, it it was a

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fascinating time.
So when did Mormonism pop up on

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your radar then?
Well, that's a great question.

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And I think to get into that, I
have to take a step even farther

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back into my life to win a
moment to a moment when

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Mormonism was definitely not a
part of my life.

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But I found that my as I've
looked back, that this really

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was pointing me in that
direction, right?

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So obviously I have I come from
a faith movement with a

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propensity towards Mormonism,
right?

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So it's interesting that the the
Campbellites probably some more

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more part of, excuse me, how can
I say this, a good chunk of the

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Campbellites in the 1830s are
coming into Mormonism, right?

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So you have a heritage of people
that are seeing the restored

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ghost, people that love the
restoration has said we've only

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got the Bible right now.
And then this prophet, this

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prophetic movement comes along
and they're so excited to be

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part of it.
Sidney Riggan brings nearly his

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whole, if not his whole
congregation in.

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So that was one piece I was so
blessed to be in a faith

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movement that prioritizes
restoration of getting back to

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the basics.
Second, there's there's when I

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was at when I was a youth.
One of the big verse, one of the

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big passage of Scripture that
that Campbellites love to quote

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is Acts chapter 238.
We believe in baptismal

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regeneration.
That is that to be saved, you

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have to be baptized and that
baptism regenerates you into a

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new creature and makes you new
in Christ, gives you this

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covenant relationship with him.
So like I was saying, there's

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that.
There's that remarkable heritage

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of, of men and women from the
candlelight movement who, who

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came into Mormonism, who were
firm restorationist, who, who

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desired with everything they had
to get back to the basics.

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And at first they did that with
the only way they knew how.

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And that was their Bible.
And then this prophetic

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tradition pops up with Joseph
Smith and, and they find out

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about that and it brings so many
people in Sidney Rigdon, like I

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said, you know, he, he brought
in nearly his entire

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congregation, if not the entire
congregation.

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And that caused a lot of
friction, right?

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You have the the first anti Book
of Mormon book, not first anti

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Mormon book, but the first anti
Book of Mormon book written by

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Alexander Campbell in response
to a lot of this.

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It causes him to do some digging
into the foundation.

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So I have that heritage, right.
And then there's this this

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passage in the scriptures that
really is our our battle cry,

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our motto, and that's Acts 238.
So in the in the Candlelight

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movement, the churches of
Christ, we really cling to this

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doctrine of baptismal
regeneration, something that's a

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common belief we share with with
the Latter Day St. movement.

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That that term, I don't think, I
don't think Mormons would be

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familiar with that term, right?
They might be familiar with the

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doctrine of it, but not it being
called that way.

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So when a Campbellite talks
about baptismal regeneration,

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what are they talking about?
Basically, well, we can go to

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the Scriptures and I think it
explains it perfectly in Acts

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chapter 2, verse 38.
This is entirely what that

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regeneration is.
So let's see here, if I can get

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there quick enough.
Here we go.

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Acts chapter 2.
So the context is right.

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You have Pentecost, all these
blessings are poured out.

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And a lot of the people in this
community, they're witnesses of

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this.
They're they're prick to the

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heart.
The text says right, It says

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verse 37.
Now when they heard this, these

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messages, this is Peter.
Peter was preaching to them

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after Pentecost.
When they heard this, they were

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cut to the heart and said to
Peter and to the other apostles

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Brothers, what should we do or
what must we do?

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Some translations render and
Peter said to them, repent and

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be baptized everyone of you in
the name of Jesus Christ, so

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that your sins may be forgiven,
so you may receive the remission

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of sins and you will receive the
gift of the Holy Spirit.

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So in baptism, we, we, we are
regenerated as as Paul says in

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Romans chapter 8 or chapter
chapter 6.

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Excuse me, right.
We, we're buried with Christ.

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We come back to life where we're
this new creation.

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There's this burial, this change
that happens within us.

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Our sins are washed away and we
enter into a covenant

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relationship with the sun, just
like in in Mos eyes at 18 with

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the mourning, with those that
mourn, right.

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We we promise to do certain
things and live a certain way.

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It changes us.
And and that's really what we're

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talking about with Baptist born
generation, that new creature

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like Behold, I make all things
new.

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And so they, they look at
baptism like, like Mormons do in

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terms of a covenant, right?
Because a lot of other

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Protestant evangelical
religions, if if I'm not

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mistaken, and if I get this
wrong, I apologize to my

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evangelical friends, But from my
estimation, baptism is from that

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standpoint more of an outward
expression of an inward faith.

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So in Campbellite tradition, it
lines up pretty well with with

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the Mormon idea of a covenantal
relationship with God.

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Exactly and and so that's that's
who we are.

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That's like that's probably the
main the focal point of the

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movement from him.
Campbellite's eyes is that text

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there.
So we read that that text was

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being into me like it was the
battle Christ, the motto of of

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the churches of Christ.
And one day I, and like I said,

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I don't remember when this was,
but one day I keep reading in

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the rest of that chapter in and
Acts chapter 2.

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And it's so it it blew me away.
It it literally set the course

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of my life.
And I didn't understand that in

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the moment, but it would if you
go to the end of that chapter,

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it talks about this, this grand
order of living that seems so

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foreign to me and the, in the
Christian circles that I grew up

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in, this idea of the, the
disciples having everything in

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common.
They break bread together, they

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worship in the, in the temple
together, they sing praises to

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God.
And really what these people

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were living is the grand
experiment of the, the, the

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United Order, the order of Enoch
right there in the New Testament

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church.
And I saw that and I knew from a

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young age this, this is life.
This is everything that I want.

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But I they know not the truth
because they don't know where to

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find it, right?
Right.

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I didn't know where that was.
And I'm looking around.

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I go to church on Sunday, but
what am I on Monday?

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You know, these are the thoughts
of a, a young kid with a little

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in, in little old small town
Podunk Murray, KY, who doesn't

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know too much about the world
and somehow is thinking a little

219
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,920
too much about these issues.
And so that is kind of where I

220
00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:02,520
would say Mormonism, the seed of
Mormonism was planted, if not by

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00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:09,280
the name of Mormonism.
So I saw that and I wanted it

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00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:14,040
desperately.
So several years go by and I

223
00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:19,880
enter my teenage years and we
all have to have our, you know,

224
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:28,360
little teenage rebellion, right?
So I, I remember there was this,

225
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,720
this kid that I went to high
school with and he was an

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00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:37,120
atheist and I was this really
annoying, you know, you think of

227
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,720
your evangelical Christian who,
who carries around his Bible,

228
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,240
you know, beats people to death
with it, you know, just always,

229
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,160
you know, tearing people down.
I'm the guy that says you're

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00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,840
going to burn in hell if you
don't repent and believe you

231
00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:51,400
know you.
Were coming with some fire and

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00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,240
brimstone at a young age.
I was yes, Sir, I I had a

233
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,920
conviction.
I had that testimony and and

234
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,400
fire and brimstone was yeah,
that's, I mean, that's who it

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00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:02,520
was.
That was the image of of God.

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00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,320
And I don't want to, I don't
want to paint an improper image

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00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:06,680
of the Campbellite belief in
God.

238
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,280
But you know, when you really
get down to brass tacks, right,

239
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,680
The there is this somewhat of a,
of a, of a God that I don't know

240
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,520
if he loves me.
At least that's my perception.

241
00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:19,480
I'm not going to speak for
others perception within the

242
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,840
faith movement, but I had that
fire and brimstone rooted into

243
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,760
me and I thought there is a way
to live and you're going to

244
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,480
conform to this way or you're
going to burn Turner burn.

245
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:36,160
And so I'm out there and and I
was like, I was the little

246
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,600
little kid preacher in little
teenage preacher at the high

247
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:45,840
school in Kentucky and always
read my Bible, taking notes,

248
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:51,200
trying to talk to people.
This atheist comes and he

249
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:53,920
challenges me.
And so I'm going to take the

250
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,480
challenge because who's on my
side, right?

251
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,320
The God of Angel armies, the
Lord of hosts.

252
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,960
You know what is what is anyone
going to do to a guy like me if

253
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:08,080
I've got the Lord on my side?
And fire and brimstone a little

254
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,240
proud too.
All in all, all at the same

255
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:11,840
time.
That's right.

256
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:18,160
I'll tell you what I I was a
prideful kid and the Lord has

257
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,040
done a lot of work on me.
So he's not, he hasn't gotten

258
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,920
there yet, you know, he's still
chiseling away.

259
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,720
Me too.
There was a, there was, there

260
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,360
was a great guy that the, the
first home teaching companion I

261
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,760
ever had when I joined the LDS
Church back in 95.

262
00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,760
And he used to have a great
saying, which is it's a lot

263
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,840
easier to stay humbled than to
get humbled.

264
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,640
And unfortunately that did not
take root with me as well as it

265
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,280
should have at the beginning.
And it had to be kicked around.

266
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,400
So I'm there with your brother.
Yeah.

267
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,920
Oh, it's seriously it's, you
know, yeah, it's it's definitely

268
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,800
an experience with the Almighty
to get humbled.

269
00:16:55,800 --> 00:17:00,960
And it's, it's an experience I
don't regret, but, you know, not

270
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,040
one that is fun when you're
going through it.

271
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,240
But yeah, so I have this atheist
and and so we're we're battling

272
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,160
it out every day.
We get together, we have some

273
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,720
classes together and we have
free time opportunities.

274
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,440
We're just, we're just going at
it.

275
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,160
I'm giving my evidences for the
existence of God, trying to

276
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,040
convince him that God exists.
He's trying to convince me that

277
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,160
God doesn't exist.
And this goes on for probably

278
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,640
the whole school year.
I don't know if I'm a sophomore

279
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:42,320
junior by then.
But anyway, at the end of that

280
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,640
experience, I found that I
wasn't able to convince him.

281
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,600
And there's a little bit of
dissonance that starts going on

282
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,480
in my mind.
OK, I do believe in free will.

283
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,240
I mean, it's a big part of our
the, the candlelight movement.

284
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,320
But at the same time I thought,
this thought enters my mind.

285
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:06,520
God is so good and so loving
even though I didn't present him

286
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:13,040
and such, but he will send
people to hell if they don't

287
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,880
believe in him.
And yet here I have this friend

288
00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:22,200
that I cannot convince that
Jesus is the Christ and that he

289
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,840
needs to repent and come to
Jesus in order to receive his

290
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,880
remission of his sins.
I can't do it.

291
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,400
And I thought, what kind of a
God is that?

292
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,920
Where's the justice?
And so this just gets into this

293
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:42,400
downward spiral of disbelief to
an extent that I succumb to to

294
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:49,600
the doubts and I give in.
And I became a very bitter in my

295
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,720
rebellion, anti Christian.
And I just hated, I hated the

296
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,520
religion.
I hated religion in general

297
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,960
because I saw such unjustice in
the way God treated non

298
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,200
believers.
Let me ask you this question.

299
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,040
So did you think that you were,
do you feel like that you were

300
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,040
an atheist in that time?
Do you feel like you were

301
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,080
agnostic?
I mean, where, where were you

302
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,960
falling on that range, right?
Because you're not just having

303
00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,800
an issue with your religion.
It sounds like at that point

304
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:24,680
you're having issues with the,
the, the God that's presented to

305
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,240
you, right?
And, and oftentimes it's going

306
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,680
to sound kind of esoteric.
Sometimes we need to tear down

307
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,280
what, what people have told us
God is and then have to go

308
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,080
experience him for ourselves
before we get there.

309
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,600
So where, where are you?
Are you an atheist?

310
00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,080
Are you an agnostic?
I mean, how would you describe

311
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:51,680
yourself in this time?
At that time I would have called

312
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,480
myself an atheist.
I would not have called myself a

313
00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,680
believer.
But looking back I see that I

314
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:05,720
probably was an agnostic.
I think that term gets those

315
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,320
terms get confused quite a bit,
whereas most of you call

316
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:14,160
themselves atheists, just really
just aren't sure about the

317
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:19,360
existence of a divine being.
So I would put myself in that

318
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:21,840
camp of agnostic, though at the
time I would not have called

319
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,160
myself that and it.
Sounds like you were angry,

320
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,080
right?
You were angry that God and and

321
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,280
maybe your religion.
And so where does that lead you?

322
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,400
Yeah, well, and.
And so the angry is anger.

323
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,560
The anger is a key.
So I'm still forced to go to

324
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,520
church at this time.
My grandparents are dragging me

325
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:42,600
there.
I don't want to be there.

326
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,280
I'm sitting in the pews looking
up at the preacher on Sunday,

327
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,320
thinking, when will this guy
just shut up?

328
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:53,040
You know, he's putting false
hope in these people's minds and

329
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:59,280
he's making a buck off of it.
And so that goes on for some

330
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,520
time.
And then the summer of that, the

331
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:07,000
summer of that year rolls around
and I'm sent to church camp.

332
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:12,000
Yay.
I'd gone to this church camp

333
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,880
every year since I was 8, so it
wasn't like it was something new

334
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,320
to me.
But you know, there's my teenage

335
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,320
angst coming out.
I don't want to be there.

336
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:28,280
And so I, I'm out there at
church camp.

337
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:34,640
The I remember walking around,
it's the camp and the the sky

338
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:40,480
just matched my mood.
Gloom, darkness, clouds covered.

339
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,400
I was angry and bitter and I
didn't want anything to do with

340
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:52,160
anyone, you know, And I remember
being so angry, but I got tired

341
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,360
that moment.
I got so tired of being angry.

342
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,520
And so I looked up at the
clouds.

343
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,000
And This is why I'd say I wasn't
an atheist.

344
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,320
I fall on my knees.
I'm just so mad.

345
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,400
And I look up at the at the
clouds and I shout at God.

346
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:19,720
And I said, I, I don't know if
you are there, but I'm done with

347
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,360
this.
I'm done with being angry.

348
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,720
And so I need you once and for
all to prove that you're here,

349
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,600
that you're real.
I need you.

350
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,920
I'm demanding you to show
yourself or I'm done.

351
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,040
I won't, I won't ever try to
pursue this whole thing, this

352
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,120
religious thing, I ever again.
I'll be completely done with God

353
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:39,560
forever.
This will be the last time I'm

354
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:48,120
going to ask.
And demanding God can be a

355
00:22:48,120 --> 00:22:51,080
frightening experience when you
think of the implications that

356
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:58,080
that can bring.
But interestingly enough, that

357
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,760
was the opposite of my
experience in that very moment.

358
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,400
It was interesting.
The clouds rolled back, the sun

359
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:18,680
came through, and the anger and
the bitterness, it all washed

360
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:25,240
away instantly.
And yeah, and I didn't hear a

361
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,720
divine voice.
I didn't have a visitation of

362
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,600
angelic messengers or the Father
and the Son come to me.

363
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,520
But I felt in that moment, you
know, arms wrapping around my,

364
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:43,160
my, my own.
And it was as if divinity

365
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,920
whispered to me, it's OK, I'm
here.

366
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:54,440
And again, this was not a
physical experience, you know,

367
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,040
in a sense of I didn't have a
visitation.

368
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,200
I, I just felt this presence,
this overwhelming feeling of

369
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:09,040
divine love and, and I knew, I
knew that God was, I knew that

370
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,160
he was real.
So all of that just washed away

371
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,960
in an instant.
And that made me hungry.

372
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,520
It made me really hungry, right?
You know, you've been in the

373
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,240
desert for a long time, moving
around, roaming around in

374
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,560
darkness.
And now you have light and you

375
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,520
haven't eaten in a while.
It's time to feast.

376
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:34,520
And so I went on this pursuit of
who is God?

377
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,560
OK, I know there's this divine
being that loves me, but who is

378
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,520
he or what is it, right?
What's going on?

379
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,320
What was that experience?
So I wanted to find out who he

380
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,920
was.
And so that was the that thus

381
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:53,400
began the hunger and.
So you get an answer right?

382
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,800
You have this experience as, as
you just sounds like you kind of

383
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,240
hit your breaking point, right?
And, and you fall to your knees

384
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:05,160
and in a moment you're like,
and, and look, I, I want to say

385
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,600
this, I don't ever encourage
anybody to challenge God or, or

386
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:13,080
anything like that.
However, I do think that he is

387
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,760
still eager to talk to his
children, right?

388
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,560
And So what you did there, I
think is exactly what God wants

389
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,680
from his kids.
Reach out to me, talk to me.

390
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,320
You know, let's let's have a
conversation.

391
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,280
Yeah.
But you're still not sure who he

392
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,840
is.
You know he exists now, but you

393
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,760
don't know who he is.
Is that a fair assessment?

394
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,040
That's absolutely right to to
the extent that I'm going to go

395
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,520
read whatever I can.
Like I, I read the Quran in this

396
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,960
time I read different texts.
So you're not limiting it just

397
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,200
to the, the, the Jesus Christ,
right?

398
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,760
You're you're like, OK, there is
this being out there and I'm

399
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,360
going to go, I'm going to go
pursue it come hell or high

400
00:25:56,360 --> 00:26:00,960
water.
Right, Yeah, as as as immature

401
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,840
of a kid I as I was, there was
still this element within my

402
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:11,520
mind that said, no doubt your
suppositions, right, Like put it

403
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,560
to the test and and truly don't
just accept as true what you've

404
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,320
always assumed to be true.
So I was willing to look at

405
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:27,480
different places and to
discover, and that also included

406
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,560
getting into and studying
Judaism and looking at the, the

407
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,600
text of the Hebrew Bible and,
and trying to understand how

408
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,280
that plays a role and, and
looking at all these different

409
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,360
faiths.
Eventually, I don't remember

410
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:47,760
when, but I settle into, OK,
there's something about this

411
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,360
Jesus story, though, that makes
a lot of sense to me that I

412
00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:58,800
really like that I can identify
with, namely this idea of people

413
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:05,880
in lost states becoming found
and experiencing divine love and

414
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,760
forgiveness and redemption.
You know the really, it's that

415
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,360
that parable of the prodigal
son.

416
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,680
Prodigal means wasteful, right?
And we often think of the

417
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,920
prodigal son as the wasteful 1
And that's true, he was

418
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,240
wasteful.
But what about the, the

419
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,320
wastefulness of the father in
that situation?

420
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,880
Who says the fatted calf?
You know, you've, you've scorned

421
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,440
me and taken all my money, all
your inheritance and squandered

422
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:32,760
it.
But here I am to give you

423
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,480
everything that I have, right.
Think of the wastefulness in a

424
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,840
way of that, how wasteful that
God is.

425
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,880
And and that's the Jesus story
to me.

426
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,040
That's who, that's who Yeshua
is.

427
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:48,320
And and so that really got to me
in my core.

428
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:55,880
So I settled into Christianity.
I there aren't many options back

429
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:57,600
home.
We are in the Bible Belt and

430
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,440
there's several places.
But where I felt most

431
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,120
comfortable was at least for the
moment, trying to figure out, I

432
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:09,360
know that I wanted to believe
that baptism was required for

433
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:11,800
salvation.
I knew that that made sense to

434
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,320
me as I was reading the New
Testament.

435
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,280
So I said, I'm going to, I'm
going to give, I'm going to give

436
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,800
this Church of Christ thing
again a shot, the Campbellite

437
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,880
movement, I'm going to see what
we can do, work with that and

438
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,600
finish up high school.
And I said, gosh, God delivered

439
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,000
me.
I can't live my life without

440
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,120
serving him.
And so I decided to become a

441
00:28:35,120 --> 00:28:39,760
minister of the gospel preaching
it.

442
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,480
It got so deep within me.
I was a little, maybe a little

443
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,920
more gentle with it this time
than I was in my fire and

444
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:52,120
brimstone days because I met, I
met the God of the universe in

445
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,480
that, in that encounter with
him.

446
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,800
And it was, it was all love.
So disclaimer, I don't mean that

447
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,560
God does not get mad or these
kinds of things, but right.

448
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,200
But I learned I met a new God in
a, in a sense.

449
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:17,560
So I, I enrolled in school in a,
a school within my faith

450
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,120
tradition as a university
sponsored by them out in

451
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,440
Northwest Arkansas.
I got AI, got a full scholarship

452
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,160
to go out there.
It was really awesome.

453
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,760
It was a preaching scholarship.
So I was literally getting paid

454
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,360
as a student to go to this
pretty expensive school.

455
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,240
Like it's like 25 grand a year,
not anything that I could

456
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,880
afford.
I was so grateful that that I

457
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,800
that opportunities opened up for
me.

458
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,000
The Lord was so gracious to to
give me something that I never

459
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,560
could have done on my own, to
get to go to this school that

460
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:59,080
had a great Bible faculty to
learn. 25,000 a year or some.

461
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:05,520
Year.
Dude, that's like 1/4 of for

462
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,080
like all four years.
That's that's about 100 gur

463
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,920
right?
I mean like if you did four

464
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,840
years.
It's, yeah, it's crazy.

465
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,800
And that's that's a Christian
School.

466
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,520
It's it's crazy to me.
Dude, the return on investment

467
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,600
better be good if you're going
to come out of there with a

468
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,320
preacher's certificate, right?
Like I hope you don't find like

469
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,960
like some small like you.
You better be going for the mega

470
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,520
church option there, holy.
Cow.

471
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,920
Yeah, for real.
It's it's tough.

472
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,440
It's tough.
And it's tough to make a living

473
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,640
as a preacher.
I mean, though, yeah, I don't

474
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,920
know how people do it without
assistance.

475
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,840
I certainly couldn't, you know,
right.

476
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,720
My parents didn't have the
means.

477
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,640
And that's not a shot against
them.

478
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,200
That's just.
Oh, it's just what it is.

479
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,760
Look, yeah, to be honest, I
don't know too many families who

480
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,360
can afford, you know, 100,000
for a degree, right?

481
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,840
I mean.
Absolutely, let alone one that

482
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,880
has limited income on.
Right.

483
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:04,520
Yeah.
I mean, it's one thing to do

484
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,080
that if you're going to be a
doctor or a lawyer or something

485
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,880
like that, It's another thing to
be like, I want to be the

486
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,600
circuit riding preacher, right?
That's right.

487
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,920
And that's what I wanted.
Like, I had a heart.

488
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:17,800
I really had a heart for
missions.

489
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,120
Like I want to go.
I, I, I had, I'd found such a

490
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,680
radical love that I wanted.
I wanted my life to be radical

491
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,120
in that sense, too.
Like for me it was.

492
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,520
Yeah, I want to go out in get
sent to India or Africa and I

493
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,520
want to go, I want to go find
people that are like, I want to

494
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,160
kill you because you're a
Christian, right?

495
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,240
Like that's the people I wanted
to reach.

496
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,800
So I'm I'm I'm, I'm morbid, you
know, like I want to get I want

497
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,400
to, I want to, I want to suffer.
I want to lay down my life for

498
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,880
the for the savior like because
he did so much for me and.

499
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,960
I'm like, if I go without
electricity for a couple of

500
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,160
days, if there's not room
service, I'm like, that's

501
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,360
enough, right?
Yeah.

502
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,800
But you're like, oh, no, send
me.

503
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,960
Send me to the the hostile
tribes of the Amazon and let's

504
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,880
work with those.
I he who would save his life,

505
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,400
will lose it, and he will lose
his sake.

506
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,600
For my fork, you know his life.
For my sake, I'm not.

507
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,080
Saying you're crazy, I'm just
saying you're better than I am,

508
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,280
right I'm.
Just yeah.

509
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,000
I mean, it's just, it just, I
don't know what I, I guess it

510
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,520
was, I mean, there was just, it
was such a radical encounter

511
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,600
that that's all I wanted.
And I, I met a Jesus who was so

512
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,040
all in for me that I wanted to
be all in for him.

513
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,520
And that's, that's really what
it was.

514
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,280
That's what it broke down to.
So I'm going to Bible college

515
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:46,120
and super awesome.
And anyway, so I'm going through

516
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:51,880
that program and I had a heart
for missions.

517
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,200
So we have this opportunity at
my school, you can get a second

518
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,400
bachelor's degree and it's, it
doesn't take up many credits so

519
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,000
that you can get it as a second
major without really putting too

520
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,960
much extra time on your hands.
And that was in French language.

521
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,440
So I'm working on a bachelor's
degree in French language and

522
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:16,400
Biblical studies focused on the
Hebrew Bible.

523
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,400
Admissions.
I really love those two things.

524
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,960
Love the human.
Voicemail too, wouldn't it?

525
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:31,600
Yes, that's absolutely right.
So yeah, I love, love set my my

526
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,920
voicemail in French, you know,
just to ward off telemarketers

527
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,160
and then let people know if you
hear this, you know exactly who

528
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,000
you're talking to, because
there's no other person weird

529
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,800
enough to set as voicemail to
French than Braxton Bogart.

530
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:44,840
But first.
Time I called you, I caught

531
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:46,760
that.
And I'm like what?

532
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,480
I don't even know what to say.
I'm just, yeah.

533
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,840
What do you do with that?
Yeah.

534
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,440
So anyway, yeah, it's funny.
But so I'm working on this

535
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,920
bachelor's degree in French and
love languages, love the Bible,

536
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,760
studying it.
And my French professor was a

537
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,920
missionary for 22 years in
France.

538
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:10,719
Yeah, he was.
He was.

539
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:14,639
He's one of the like in the in
the world of French speaking

540
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,440
missions in the Church of
Christ, Like people know this

541
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,280
guy.
You know, he's he's a he's a

542
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,880
great humble man.
I love him to death and

543
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,440
opportunity opens up to be able
to to go with him over to

544
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:37,159
France.
And I seize it and I get to go

545
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,560
serve as a missionary, do the
the one thing that I really want

546
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,280
to do with my life in France,
which you're like, OK, France,

547
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,280
that's really cush.
You know, you want to go out and

548
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,320
serve in India, you know, and
all these hostile places,

549
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,159
wherever it is, wherever the
hostile place is, you want to go

550
00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:51,960
there and you're going to
France.

551
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,080
Fair, I get it.
OK.

552
00:34:56,679 --> 00:35:00,720
But you know, the mission life,
whether you're in France or not,

553
00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:06,120
is not glamorous.
And it's not just going to the

554
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,840
Eiffel Tower and the Louvre
Museum every day and hanging out

555
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,040
and, you know, doing all the the
Snooty front Parisian things so.

556
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,080
You're saying you didn't wear a
beret?

557
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:20,680
You're absolutely right, I did
not.

558
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,400
OK.
Nor I didn't wear the striped

559
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,000
shirt either, you know.
None of that OK.

560
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,000
None of that, none of you're
stereotypical.

561
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,360
I did eat snails.
The Lord has forgiven me.

562
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,560
I didn't know that that was
contrary to his laws in the Old

563
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,480
Testament.
But, you know, enjoyed my

564
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:43,960
escargot while I was there and
absolutely adored it.

565
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,280
And I remember the moment that I
fell in love with the French

566
00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,960
people and the French speaking
context when I was sitting in

567
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,480
one of the homes singing, we
were singing hymns, just

568
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,680
praising our Lord.
And I saw the passion in the

569
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,320
fire of in these people for
their their father.

570
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,840
And I saw how amazing it was in
the face of of persecution in

571
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,920
France, where over 50% of France
is atheist.

572
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,160
That number is growing.
Christians aren't liked very

573
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,920
much.
I have friends there that gets

574
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,640
get rocks thrown at them on a
regular basis because they're

575
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:20,960
Christian.
And they announced that they're

576
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:22,520
Christian.
They're they're not ashamed of

577
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,560
it.
And it's definitely worse than

578
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,760
other places.
I'm not going to deny that, you

579
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,120
know, it is still a first world
country, but it's not, it's not

580
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:33,840
easy.
And I and I and I saw their

581
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,320
fervor for the gospel as they
understood it.

582
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,040
And I was in love and I wanted
to stay there forever.

583
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:43,800
You know, real, real quick, I
don't mean to cut you off here,

584
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,160
but I do think it's worth
pointing out, right?

585
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,560
You said it could be worse,
right?

586
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,600
It was France.
But certainly I tend to gauge

587
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,720
that as kind of a barometer,
right?

588
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:59,560
I tend to look at at Europe in
terms of being somewhere between

589
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,280
5 to 10 years ahead of us, right
in the United States.

590
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,400
And there's no doubt that
throughout the West,

591
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,680
Christianity is for the most
part collapsing, right?

592
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,680
Absolutely.
It's not it's not gaining the

593
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,280
traction at one's had.
The thing that really disturbs

594
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,560
me is that there's a large part
of Western societies, right

595
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,600
Western, the West, right?
When I say the West, I'm not

596
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,560
talking about just the United
States, Europe, you know, the

597
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:32,680
Western culture that quite
frankly, has built their

598
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,720
societies on the, on a
judeo-christian kind of

599
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:38,840
foundation.
And if those pinnings begin to

600
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:44,000
be undermined, I mean, societal
collapse is kind of inevitable

601
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,960
and what it falls into is
questionable.

602
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,640
So, yeah, I mean, I get what
you're saying.

603
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,320
It could be worse, but I think
it's also a great barometer of

604
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:52,760
where things are at at the
moment.

605
00:37:53,560 --> 00:38:00,560
Absolutely it it really is.
It's unfortunate that, you know,

606
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,240
Christianity is, is becoming
less and less of a priority in

607
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:10,360
the Western world that we are
giving up on the foundation, the

608
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,960
cornerstone of, of who we are.
Like our civilization was built

609
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,480
on this and we're we're
rejecting it and what happens,

610
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,200
right?
What is the, the Old Testament

611
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,760
it you know, it always it talks
about Israel when they rebelled.

612
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,160
It says the Land's going to spit
you out of its mouth, right?

613
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,000
That's what's coming.
And we need to we need to

614
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,880
recognize that quickly.
We need to repent and we need to

615
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,840
come back to the Lord.
But he is ready for it, right?

616
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,000
Like he wants you even like Joel
says in Joel chapter 2.

617
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,880
Yet even this day, you can
return to me like I'll be

618
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,120
patient with you and I will
bring you back in.

619
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,440
So God, is that good?
The question is, are we going to

620
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:58,240
recognize it?
And so that's the that's the

621
00:38:58,240 --> 00:39:00,680
context that I'm in and I fall
in love with it.

622
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,720
And I really want to stay there
the rest of my life preaching

623
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:06,120
the gospel.
I don't want anything else.

624
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,040
So I have this friend kind of
shift gears a little bit and I

625
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:19,080
have this friend and he did not
grow up in in religion, but had

626
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,960
a an experience that brought him
into faith originally.

627
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:29,120
He initially joins the Baptist
Church and then goes on.

628
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:35,120
He's actually within the past
year has been become a Catholic

629
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,720
and loves that.
He loves that tradition and I'm

630
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,200
happy for him.
But we would get together and

631
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:48,680
chat about religion about once a
week or so, every few days.

632
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:57,160
And one day we're we're
chatting, we get together, we're

633
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:02,440
talking religion.
And he says to me, I, I found

634
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,240
this book, you've got to check
it out.

635
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,000
It's crazy and you have to see
it.

636
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,600
And I say, OK, what are we
talking about here?

637
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,320
He says.
It's a RIP off of the Bible.

638
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,480
It's total plagiarism, right?
It's got dual columns just like

639
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,520
the Bible has.
It's got the verses just like

640
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,520
the Bible has.
It even pulls out whole chapters

641
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,120
from the Bible.
And I said, oh, what in the

642
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,120
world?
What is this?

643
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:40,720
I've got to see this.
So he shows me and I'm like

644
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:42,720
stunned, like I've got to have a
copy.

645
00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:48,040
I'm a bibliophile.
I love books, and so I said I

646
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,600
need this.
He says, well, there's a place

647
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,800
you can get one for free.
Let's let's do this.

648
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,480
Let's go there.
I'm like, yeah, let's do this.

649
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,280
He takes me to this website,
mormon.org.

650
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,760
I'm dating myself a little bit
here.

651
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,560
And what you didn't know is on
the other side of the veil you

652
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:11,720
heard got him.
That's right, the angels were

653
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:15,840
singing.
So we get on to mormon.org.

654
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:23,240
We fill out this form to get a
free copy of this book called

655
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:27,240
the Book of Mormon if you
listeners are familiar with that

656
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:29,960
one.
Heard about it a couple of

657
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,280
times.
Yeah, it's it's pretty good.

658
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,600
I like it.
So I didn't have the time, but

659
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:40,360
anyway, so they said the the
form, if we submit the form as

660
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,440
missionaries are going to be by
drop off your copy.

661
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:55,840
And so I waited and missionaries
show up and, and it's, it's

662
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,280
interesting.
They they sat on my porch for

663
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:01,680
about half an hour lecturing me
about the restoration of the

664
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:07,240
gospel of Jesus Christ.
They wanted to give me the why

665
00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:11,000
behind this record that they're
handing me.

666
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:16,880
And so I accept it, tell him,
hey, look, I'm just interested

667
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:18,400
in knowing what my neighbors
believe.

668
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,680
I didn't tell him I just wanted
the book because it was free and

669
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,520
it sounded interesting and I
want to RIP it apart and make

670
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,400
fun of it, but said, I just want
to know what my neighbors

671
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,080
believe.
And, you know, I want to be a

672
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:34,400
better minister to the people in
my community and I want to serve

673
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,800
people.
And so I accept it.

674
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,280
I closed the door.
I immediately opened it because

675
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:41,880
I'm like, oh, I'll just peruse
through it.

676
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:47,920
I flip open to the 12th and 13th
chapters of Mosiah where Abenadi

677
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,040
is giving his address and he
quotes the 10 commandments.

678
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,840
My man OK, so when, and I've
said this before on this

679
00:42:55,840 --> 00:43:01,120
podcast, that is like when OK,
so when, when I got the Book of

680
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,320
Mormon, everything was super
structured, right?

681
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,240
They were pamphlets and there
was like, I think 8 lessons.

682
00:43:07,720 --> 00:43:10,680
And so the first one is like, go
meet, read Moroni's.

683
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,480
Moroni's promise, right?
Yeah, right.

684
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,080
And I do that.
But that isn't what gets me.

685
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,640
It's the story of Abenadias.
He's being burned.

686
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,840
That.
Gets me right And then I go and

687
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,640
pray about it and and test
Moroni and that's where it goes.

688
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,720
So I get you.
I feel you.

689
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,320
Abenadi is the man.
Abenadi is the man.

690
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,080
Now, I have to admit, I didn't
think so at the time.

691
00:43:34,720 --> 00:43:37,840
Gotcha.
So I open it up, I see the 10

692
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,080
commandments there in in Messiah
12.

693
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,720
And I said, oh, shoot, it is a
RIP off.

694
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,600
Like you just took the whole 10
commandments out.

695
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,160
You know, it's not like the the
New Testament here doesn't RIP

696
00:43:53,160 --> 00:44:00,080
off the Old Testament all the
time with quotations like you've

697
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,200
seen, you've you've talked to
Tracy Roberts, like his whole

698
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,640
compilation of the New
Testaments intertextual

699
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:08,080
relationship with the Old
Testament.

700
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,520
It's crazy, but you know, double
standards.

701
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,520
I'm, I'm for coming from this,
this strict Christian Protestant

702
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,960
restoration background.
And so I have no context for,

703
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:28,240
for understanding beyond my own
mindset lens, interpretive lens.

704
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,640
So I said it is the RIP off,
it's plagiarism.

705
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,960
I said it on the bookshelf.
And I ignore the Book of Mormon

706
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,080
in and of itself, the text that
is.

707
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:42,480
But that very moment I decided
with every fiber of my being

708
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,520
that I was going to become an
anti Mormon.

709
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:53,120
And for the next while that
became the course of my life.

710
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,840
Every free moment that I had for
studies, it was on Mormonism.

711
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:03,960
You know it like it was, it was
obsessive.

712
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,480
I'm reading Sandra Tanner and
Gerald Tanner like I'm reading

713
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,280
was Walter Martin.
All the guys, all the guys.

714
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,720
Probably listen to some some
podcast too I would imagine.

715
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:21,560
Jeff Durbin apostate, but I'm
listening to him listening to

716
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:30,640
Apologia Studios, right.
And Oh yeah, all that stuff.

717
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:35,600
You know, the guy that does the
presuppositional politics

718
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:40,800
Bondsen and and just lit just
eating up all these voices that

719
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,480
would talk about Christianity in
a very specific way and also who

720
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,480
happened to be very strong
critics of of Mormonism.

721
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:55,200
And so I'm I'm just absorbing
all this information.

722
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,800
I'm obsessed.
Like, a general authority dies.

723
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,320
I'm like on the phone, you know?
Hey, Mom, did you hear this

724
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,000
general authority died?
She's like, what's the general

725
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,480
authority?
And I'm like, oh, it's some guy

726
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:13,920
who's burning in hell.
You're going hard.

727
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:22,160
That's right.
So I was, I was very much, I was

728
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,200
very anti Mormon, which is so
weird, right, because I had this

729
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,200
experience with God.
I, I, I felt like he was

730
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:27,400
different from the one that I
grew up with.

731
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,840
So I'm like, I'm not firing
brimstone, but when it comes to

732
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,600
Mormonism and the cults, I'm I'm
here and and.

733
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,280
I, I was saying, it's always
kind of funny, right?

734
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:40,240
Because they'll say we love
everybody, or God loves

735
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:42,760
everybody except the Mormons,
right?

736
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,800
Exactly.
Yeah, it's so true.

737
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,280
Yeah.
God really loves you.

738
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:53,080
But you know you're going to go
to hell if you don't think about

739
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:59,720
him in the right ways, right?
Christianity to them is it's

740
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:03,400
propositional.
It's not relational,

741
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:11,480
unfortunately.
And so I, I, yeah, I really, I

742
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:15,800
adopted that moniker, that
lifestyle obsessively absorbing

743
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:23,240
any amount of information I
could about about Mormonism.

744
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:32,640
Concomitantly.
I'm, I'm taking some courses in,

745
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:40,840
in theology. 1 is, it's a class
called Biblical Theology.

746
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,280
And the other one is critical
issues in the Old and New

747
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:50,800
Testament.
And those courses are designed

748
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,520
to prepare ministers.
And it is an academic context,

749
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:55,840
right?
You're, you're learning about

750
00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:02,000
the Bible and it's designed to
prepare you with and inoculate

751
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,760
you against the issues and
challenges that are going to be

752
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,440
brought to you by opponents of
Christianity.

753
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,560
So we're going to talk about
textual issues in the Bible and

754
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,600
theological issues like theodicy
and all these different problems

755
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,760
and, and.
Explain the OK, so, so couple

756
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,840
quick questions.
You're you're taking this course

757
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,200
while you're learning about
Mormonism or it's of course you

758
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,440
already took.
I'm I'm in the process of taking

759
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:32,120
this course while learning about
Mormonism.

760
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:37,280
OK, so so you're preaching you
you are an evangelical preacher

761
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,760
who's still in school while
you're preaching, is that?

762
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:40,800
Correct.
That's right.

763
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,200
That's right.
All right.

764
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,600
And then for the for the
audience, what does the all?

765
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:49,120
Theodicy.
Yes, thank you.

766
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:50,400
What is that?
Yeah, no problem.

767
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:55,880
So that is the classic problem
of evil in in a nutshell, just

768
00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:01,680
just looking at what evil is and
how to understand it from the

769
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:04,120
relationship of Christianity
worldview.

770
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,960
Exactly how does evil and
suffering exist in a world where

771
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:14,080
God also exists?
So learning about all these

772
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:19,200
issues, and I've got to say, I'm
having one of those faith crisis

773
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,520
crises again.
Yeah.

774
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,040
So my foundation starts to
shake.

775
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:30,440
And this time it's not anger.
It's it's, it's out of an

776
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,120
unease, of an uncomfortability.
You know, I've assumed all this

777
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,040
time that the text of the Bible
is perfect.

778
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,840
It's infallible.
There are no errors in it, yet

779
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:46,000
I'm being met with contradictory
statements within the Bible and

780
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,720
being met with textual errors.
I'm being met with the reality

781
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:55,600
that we don't have the original
manuscripts of the New Testament

782
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,360
or the Old Testament.
We have copies of copies of

783
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:02,000
copies of copies, right?
There's, there's certain

784
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,680
certainties we can't have about
the Bible.

785
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:09,320
And that's really scaring me.
And, and I'm realizing that, you

786
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:15,200
know, not everything within
evangelicalism, Protestantism,

787
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,920
the mainstream Christianity is
what it claims to be.

788
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,720
This idea of infallibility of
God being of a certain nature,

789
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:31,640
these things just don't seem to
square with the text, Right.

790
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:39,160
So what I'm hearing in Sunday
school on Sunday is not

791
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,680
equivalent to what I'm getting
in school on Monday.

792
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:50,840
Something different.
My faith is is about to shatter

793
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:55,880
into 1000 tiny pieces.
And so I really don't know what

794
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,760
to do.
And it's interesting.

795
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,560
I'm such a I'm I'm this anti
Mormon guy.

796
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:00,960
I've never read the Book of
Mormon.

797
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,200
I'm also having a faith crisis
at the at the same time.

798
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:11,760
And I'm sitting in my room one
day terrified out of my mind

799
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:13,680
because this is what I want to
do with.

800
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,560
This is what I want to do for
the rest of my life.

801
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,360
You know, this is my livelihood
here.

802
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,000
And this is what I want to be
forever.

803
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:30,640
I want to be a preacher.
And in that moment, I heard this

804
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:33,160
voice in my mind that said, read
the book.

805
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:35,640
Why don't you just read the
book?

806
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,480
I know exactly what it meant.
It meant the Book of Mormon.

807
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,680
And so I sit down.
I pulled the book off the shelf

808
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,600
and opened up and started an ID.
If I having been born of goodly

809
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,960
parents.
And I kept going and I kept

810
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:06,400
reading and I plowed through it
and I did not look up from that

811
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,120
book until I was finished with
Jacob.

812
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:15,240
So I just powered through first,
second Nephi, read Jacob and I'm

813
00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:19,760
like, whoa, I don't know what's
happening, but I like it.

814
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:26,960
And I went, got up, went to the
bathroom, took a little break,

815
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,200
came back, start applying
through it again.

816
00:52:29,720 --> 00:52:34,440
And by the next day, I was, I
was done with the Book of

817
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:39,520
Mormon.
I was, I was enamored.

818
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:45,920
And I, I was especially enamored
with a passage that everyone

819
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,000
here is familiar with in the
36th chapter of the book of Alma

820
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:57,400
and this conversion story that
he has because I'm this anti

821
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,600
Mormon guy, right?
And and everything I do is

822
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:07,520
trying to tear down the faith of
people who love God and are

823
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:09,160
called according to his
purposes.

824
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:14,560
And I meet this very guy who
just looks exactly like me,

825
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,800
right?
This this pious, pretentious,

826
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:23,880
prideful.
Can we call it for what it is a

827
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,640
prick?
Is that is that inappropriate?

828
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:27,920
Oh dude, I've said far worse.
You're good.

829
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:37,680
And the text says he went about
trying to murder the children of

830
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:39,960
Christ, or in other words, to
destroy their testimonies,

831
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,560
right, to tear them away from
their eternal salvation.

832
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:51,840
And I, I met myself.
I met in the face of Alma

833
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,520
everyone that I ever was,
everything that I ever was,

834
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:59,440
these past this past period of
my life.

835
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,320
And then everything changes when
you get to the center of that

836
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:10,320
Chiasmus says my mind caught
hold of 1 Jesus Christ, the Son

837
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:15,920
of God, right in the midst of
all this bitterness, soul

838
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:21,520
wracked with torment, which when
you you know what a rack is, You

839
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,120
know this agricultural tool that
literally gets in you and it

840
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:28,080
pulls and and you're being or
you're being pulled.

841
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,640
And then there's the there's the
other, the other torture device.

842
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:33,600
That's the spikes.
And you know you're being

843
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,280
harrowed out.
That's what it is, the Harrow

844
00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:39,360
that's that's literally going at
his heart and ripping it to

845
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,680
shreds.
You feel that bitterness.

846
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,960
And then you meet this savior,
right?

847
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:52,320
He says to you, he says, I could
say to you on the one hand, my

848
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,880
son, that there was nothing so
exquisite and bitter as were my

849
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,040
pains.
But on the other hand, I say,

850
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,480
there could be nothing so
exquisite and sweet as was my

851
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:03,760
joy.
Bitter because of the depravity

852
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:10,600
of who I was, of the destruction
that I tried to cause, and

853
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,920
sweetness because of the
deliverance of a Savior.

854
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:23,680
And the reality that in that
moment that the exact same Jesus

855
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:29,120
that I met in the pages of the
Bible that I fell desperately in

856
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:33,280
love with as I was reading of
it.

857
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,680
Experiencing him in that moment
when I was in high school and

858
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:41,800
crying out to him.
That same Jesus existed in the

859
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:46,640
book that I put so much scorn
on, that I tried desperately to

860
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:50,640
destroy, and that I tried
desperately to destroy its

861
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:57,880
believers in.
I had never I, I, I like to to

862
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,360
think of myself more as growing
up more of an intellectual guy

863
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,960
and I I only like things that
were, that I could determine was

864
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,920
true from logical propositions
and follow them to their end.

865
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:13,760
But in that moment, for the very
first time in my life, I wept

866
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:18,640
over a passage of Scripture.
I wept over Alma 36, never wept

867
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:21,720
over a passage of the Bible.
Not that the Bible is not

868
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:23,640
valuable and that you can't find
so many good Nuggets.

869
00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,320
I've wept over the pages of the
Bible since, but I didn't have

870
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,280
that mindset.
Now I'm just a these days I'm a

871
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:30,840
crybaby.
And then I read the scriptures.

872
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:35,760
So I'm like, oh, God loves me,
you know, like he's so good.

873
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:37,840
And you read the scriptures and
you're just bawling, you know,

874
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:41,600
and you see how amazing he is.
But then I wasn't.

875
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,360
And so for the first time, I had
that emotional encounter with

876
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,120
the divine.
I felt, I felt the Holy Spirit

877
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:49,880
in a way that I never felt it
before.

878
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:59,440
And so from that moment, I knew
that the Book of Mormon was what

879
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:06,800
it said it was, right?
And those there, there's massive

880
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,760
implications to that
realization, right?

881
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:14,120
I mean, there's, there's the
theological ramifications in

882
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:19,680
terms of, OK, so if this book is
true, then we have got to look

883
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,560
at Joseph Smith and start
looking at the veracity of his

884
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,920
claims, right?
But also, there's going to be

885
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:28,760
some fallout here for you on
this.

886
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:33,240
Yeah, it's going to be, it's,
it's going to be somewhat

887
00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:38,480
disastrous in certain ways.
First, the theological

888
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,720
implications.
It was very fascinating that I

889
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:44,240
finally, so I at this moment, I
said, I've got to take this book

890
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:47,040
seriously.
It's something, there is

891
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:50,040
something there.
Obviously there is the divine in

892
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,040
it.
So I need to take it seriously.

893
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,840
And So what I, what I made the
point of, I said, OK, you're

894
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,400
going to school and you're,
you're doing this program,

895
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,080
you're following this program,
biblical studies.

896
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:04,840
And when you want to evaluate a
claim, make a claim to evaluate

897
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:06,920
it.
You're just, you're an academic,

898
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,880
you're a student in school.
You know that you take you look

899
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,160
at both sides of arguments, you
look at different arguments, you

900
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:19,280
analyze them, you synthesize
data and you determine what

901
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:20,760
these claims are that are being
made.

902
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,920
And you weigh the evidence.
You decide what makes more sense

903
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:29,160
and you follow that to its truth
logical end.

904
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:33,480
I never done that for Mormonism,
right?

905
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:36,040
I'm only reading the Sandra and
Gerald Tanner's.

906
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,200
I'm only reading the Walter
Martins.

907
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:42,320
I'm only listening to apology of
studios, not fair Mormon or what

908
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:44,560
have you, right?
Like I'm only listening to one

909
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,840
side of the equation.
As I said, I've got to be fair.

910
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:54,160
I've got to, I've got to judge
this on its merit and wave the

911
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:58,520
arguments out rather than just
being 1 sided with the way I

912
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,640
approach.
So I started to do that and then

913
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:06,960
it's interesting, right?
So the theologically, there are

914
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,680
certain things that don't line
up with what I'm learning in

915
00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:14,680
school about the Bible and what
it is that do line up with the

916
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:16,920
frameworks that exist within
Mormonism.

917
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:21,560
So Mormonism allows you to to
believe in the scriptures,

918
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:24,920
believe that they're inspired,
but also that, hey, not

919
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,520
everything's been transmitted
perfectly or correctly.

920
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:29,960
There are errors, you know,
there are, there are textual

921
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:31,880
errors that exist, there are
contradictions because they're

922
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:34,840
written by men, right?
That that statement in, in the

923
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:36,680
opening of the Book of Mormon is
so freeing, right?

924
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:38,760
Wherefore if there are faults,
they're the faults of men,

925
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:41,320
though.
So don't condemn the things of

926
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:43,920
God that you might be found
without spot at the judgement

927
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:45,440
bar.
That's so freeing.

928
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:50,560
I didn't have that concept, that
framework for looking at this

929
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:55,920
idea of creation X materia
rather than creation X nihilo.

930
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:58,920
So these are Latin terms.
X nihilo means out of nothing,

931
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,000
right?
X Materia out of matter.

932
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,680
That creation, not a matter
that's so foreign to the

933
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:09,080
Protestant Catholic world, but
that lines up perfectly with our

934
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:13,800
understanding of the Hebrew
worldview of what the new, the

935
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:16,880
Old Testament is actually saying
when it uses the verb bura to

936
01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:21,120
create, you know, So it's very
interesting right there getting

937
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:25,920
Joseph Smith's, getting all
these things right, the farm

938
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:27,280
boy.
Don't worry about it.

939
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,000
Just yeah.
Farm Boy gets it right again.

940
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:34,840
And yeah, that was so
fascinating.

941
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:36,120
So the theological implications,
right?

942
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,920
You're you're finding all this.
So it, wow, it's going to

943
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:40,800
require some shifts.
It's going to require you to

944
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:46,240
give up some things.
But fascinatingly enough, it's

945
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,200
it tends to line up with the
academic consensus,

946
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,600
theologically speaking.
I understand that the academic

947
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,040
consensus is that the Book of
Mormon is not historical.

948
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,400
I understand that.
But regarding the theological

949
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:04,640
issues and beliefs of Mormonism,
Oh my word, it's wonderful.

950
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:10,000
And then there's the the more
personal part.

951
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,720
What does that mean for me as a
right?

952
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,400
What does this mean as a
disciple of Jesus Christ?

953
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:21,200
And I shot myself in the foot
because I told God I want to

954
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,120
suffer.
Do you know?

955
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:24,560
I said.
I want you to send me to the

956
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:28,080
hard places.
You didn't realize that'd be

957
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,520
within yourself though, right?
I mean, you were thinking.

958
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:35,200
You were thinking externally.
But, but, but, but the the

959
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:39,680
Crucible, the real Crucible, is
discovering the truth.

960
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,960
Yes, exactly.
You know, I told him, I said I

961
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:47,760
want to get, I want to get
skinned alive, burned alive, he

962
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:48,640
said.
Well, you're going to get

963
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:52,160
harrowed up.
You're going to get you're going

964
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,200
to get racked with torment and
you're going to walk through

965
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,720
this.
He said, I want you to know that

966
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:00,400
this was everything.
This was the plan, right?

967
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,160
The Book of Mormon says he who
bears the crosses of the world

968
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,920
and despises the shame of it.
That's the person that overcomes

969
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:11,320
all things, right?
Romans chapter 8.

970
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:16,080
We are the children of God and
if children and heirs, heirs of

971
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:19,680
God and joint heirs of the
Christ, if what's the if, if we

972
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:23,760
suffer with him so that we may
also be glorified together with

973
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:25,880
him.
In other words, you've got to

974
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:27,680
be, you've got to be ready to
die.

975
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:31,920
You know, Dietrich Bonhoeffer is
like one of my favorite

976
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:37,120
promises.
Oh man, I love him to death and.

977
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,280
To stand up in those times in
Germany.

978
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:45,680
Take it like he took it dude.
Dudes on next level.

979
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:48,240
Right.
And if you haven't read Cost of

980
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:52,480
Discipleship that he wrote, it
is absolutely a must read,

981
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:55,760
whatever your theological bent
is.

982
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:59,160
And it's, it's what you're
talking about here.

983
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:01,800
I think it's so applicable
today, right?

984
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:06,800
And so often I think as people
who follow Christ, as disciples,

985
01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:11,960
we tend to look for the things
that appear outwardly

986
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:16,280
disastrous, Right, Right.
Or.

987
01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:21,200
Or whatnot.
But sometimes that thing about,

988
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:27,680
OK, I just want to die or, or I
want I, I'm so convinced of, of

989
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:32,200
the, the reality of Jesus Christ
in the Gospel that, you know, in

990
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,560
your case, you're saying I I
want to, I want to die for it if

991
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:37,280
I need to, right?
Yeah.

992
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:41,200
What's interesting is that you
are kind of not kind of in a

993
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:43,360
very real way, you are dying,
right?

994
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,560
You are anybody who goes through
a conversion process.

995
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:49,920
It is a form of dying and
rebirth, right?

996
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:54,440
The old man is going to die, you
are going to shed him and you're

997
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:59,040
going to come out something
different, something better.

998
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,320
But there is pain.
There is a form of of death to

999
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,920
the natural man that happens in
this process.

1000
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:09,760
There is there's a certain, to
quote the ancients, the

1001
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,320
mortification of the flesh,
right?

1002
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:14,560
And even even Paul in the New
Testament, is it Colossians

1003
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,920
where he says, you know, the
text reads, having been buried

1004
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:21,160
with him in baptism, It's it's
literal death.

1005
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:23,920
You know, that's the analogy of
baptism.

1006
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,600
It's death.
It's a it's a simulation of

1007
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:32,440
death, burial and resurrection.
Bonhoeffer says when Christ

1008
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,000
calls a man, he bids him come
and die.

1009
01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:41,400
Right.
And I remember Jeff Durbin, I

1010
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:45,600
was watching years ago the round
this time a sermon of his and

1011
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:47,320
he's talk it's, it's about
Mormons.

1012
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:50,800
And he, he says, if you're not
ready to come and die, don't

1013
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:56,440
come, alluding to this, alluding
to this passage from Bon Hofer.

1014
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,520
And that really that's still
sticks in my mind to this day.

1015
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:01,320
If you're not ready to come and
die, don't come.

1016
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,560
And I, I'm not sure totally how
ready I was to die.

1017
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:13,680
I had a lot to weigh and I knew
that my school was going to be

1018
01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:16,560
at risk.
The the the only career that I

1019
01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:19,480
ever wanted for my life was
going to be at risk.

1020
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:24,880
I knew that relationships were
going to be at risk for going

1021
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:27,480
after this.
And so I spent a lot of time to

1022
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:31,040
painting the cost, weighing the
cost, like how much you said you

1023
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:32,440
wanted to suffer?
How much do you really want to

1024
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:39,440
suffer within yourself and in
regards to to how you interact

1025
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:44,360
with others?
So I just debated back and

1026
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:45,640
forth.
What, what am I going to do?

1027
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,440
At one point I said, you know
what, I'm going to become a

1028
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,720
preacher who just secretly
believes in the Book of Mormon.

1029
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:58,040
You know this will work, right?
I'll, I'll read it on the side.

1030
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:02,240
Maybe I could sneak it into a
sermon or two, but.

1031
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,160
But.
You're from the South, right?

1032
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:11,760
You're from Kentucky.
Kentucky.

1033
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:13,760
Yes, Sir.
That might be a bless your heart

1034
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:17,880
moment.
It it really is I I would

1035
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:25,120
deserve that one wholeheartedly.
So, yeah, I thought that might

1036
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:29,200
work.
And then the spirit just really

1037
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,960
kept beating at me, right?
That no, you, you want to

1038
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:36,120
suffer.
This is you want you want life

1039
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:40,120
right and and the Lord Jesus
came to give life and life

1040
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:42,920
abundantly.
And if you want the abundant

1041
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:46,120
life, then you're going to have
to lay it all down.

1042
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:53,120
Your life has to become less.
You know, I must decrease, he

1043
01:06:53,120 --> 01:07:02,600
must increase.
That is what had to happen and

1044
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:11,160
so it finally came time to make
the decision and decided to go

1045
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:14,320
for it.
So it been in communication with

1046
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:17,280
missionaries.
I, I knew that there were other

1047
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:25,000
branches and groups of, of
Mormonism, but the church made

1048
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:30,680
the most sense to me because if
you don't do the things that

1049
01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:33,080
Joseph taught, which is going to
come back to our story later,

1050
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:34,560
right?
It doesn't make sense to me.

1051
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:36,480
If you're not going to do the
things that Joseph taught that

1052
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:41,600
it does, you can't be the one.
So community of Christ, I love

1053
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:43,880
community of Christ.
I have many good relationships

1054
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:52,400
of people that I've met over the
years in community of Christ so

1055
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,880
great, but they don't do the
things Joseph taught right.

1056
01:07:57,440 --> 01:07:59,120
That was really the main
contender for me.

1057
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:02,080
Like if there's going to be
anybody, you know, bicker

1058
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:06,120
tonight's great folks, amazing
people love them to death.

1059
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:09,000
They have so much good.
But it's like I I believe the

1060
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:11,760
revelations of Joseph Smith.
I've I got to have the Doctrine

1061
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:15,920
covenants if I'm going to go
into this, you know, and I want

1062
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:19,960
to have the temple like I
respect the Church of Jesus

1063
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:21,080
Christ.
The Bicker tonight's It's

1064
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,920
probably the closest to the
church that I grew up in in

1065
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,920
terms of the way it operates,
just with the extra those few.

1066
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:29,240
Extra.
Yeah, those accoutrements, if

1067
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:33,359
you will, the Book of Mormon and
more of a prophetic tradition.

1068
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:38,520
Great, love it.
But I wanted I wanted more.

1069
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:43,560
I wanted, I wanted the fullness
of of things.

1070
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:46,840
So I.
Joined the church Before we go

1071
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:48,760
down this road.
I there there's a couple of

1072
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:54,080
things I really got to get get
how you got here on right?

1073
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:57,240
Because, because we went from,
OK, the Book of Mormon is true

1074
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:01,640
and Joseph's a prophet to OK, I
accept it all.

1075
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:05,000
But there, there's some things
along the way here that that I

1076
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:06,600
would expect would have been
challenging.

1077
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:08,279
So I want to dive into those a
little bit.

1078
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:11,920
So as, as you start exploring
these things, right?

1079
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,880
And, and I want to say this, and
I don't say this in a

1080
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:22,880
discounting kind of a way, sure.
But when we deal with the old

1081
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:27,600
and new testaments, when we deal
with the Book of Mormon, those

1082
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:31,160
are and I, I don't really know
if this is a good word for it,

1083
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,279
but I'm going to try to use it
kind of salvatic texts, right?

1084
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:37,680
Those are texts that are worried
about the salvation of an

1085
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:40,319
individual.
Now when you get to the Doctrine

1086
01:09:40,319 --> 01:09:43,279
and Covenants, especially when
you get to the Nauvoo period,

1087
01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:49,600
you now have this idea of
exaltation becoming as God is.

1088
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:55,320
Sure.
So as coming from a albeit a, a

1089
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:57,480
restoration branch so to speak,
right?

1090
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,440
Not a Mormon restoration, but a
restorationalist type church.

1091
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:06,480
How do you square that all up?
How do you how do you make the

1092
01:10:06,480 --> 01:10:10,800
jump from salvation to
exaltation being a thing?

1093
01:10:11,280 --> 01:10:13,960
It's a great question, yeah,
because I do believe, I think

1094
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:16,720
you're right.
I think the thrust of what the

1095
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:20,560
Bible is getting towards in its
conclusion from the first in the

1096
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:24,440
beginning to the end in the New
Testament, the Greek New

1097
01:10:24,440 --> 01:10:27,600
Testament, the thrust is that
all may be saved.

1098
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,320
And by that I don't mean
universalism is in everybody's

1099
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:31,560
right heaven.
It's going to be a party.

1100
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:37,440
By that I mean that the question
that overrides the text is, is

1101
01:10:37,440 --> 01:10:39,280
who can be a part of the family
of God?

1102
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:42,320
And it's everyone.
Anyone can.

1103
01:10:43,000 --> 01:10:45,880
It doesn't matter who you are,
your background, you can come

1104
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:48,920
unto Christ.
And that starts with that first

1105
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,280
promise given to Abraham, right?
You will be the father of many

1106
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:54,160
nations.
This covenant relationship is

1107
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:59,040
going to extend out and then,
OK, how do we get to this other

1108
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:03,600
end of the spectrum?
So I have to admit it's the same

1109
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:08,160
text, the the text that is
concerned with the salvation of,

1110
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:14,560
of the human family.
The Bible, though it is

1111
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:18,680
primarily concerned with that,
it does not mean that the

1112
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:21,480
mysteries don't exist.
So I mentioned earlier about

1113
01:11:21,720 --> 01:11:24,160
these theological things that
are starting to line up with

1114
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:27,000
Mormonism, like X materia,
creation, X materia and all

1115
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,960
these other concepts.
Well, I'm starting to see

1116
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:39,400
elements that fascinate me, such
as the idea that God's other

1117
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:43,840
than Jehovah actually exist,
right?

1118
01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:50,440
That our Father is not the only
God in existence.

1119
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:53,480
That appears to me to be very
obvious.

1120
01:11:53,480 --> 01:11:55,000
And we're not talking just about
idols.

1121
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:57,600
We're not talking about the fact
that just the Israelites

1122
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:00,960
believed this.
No, the texts seems to declare

1123
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:04,080
like even God declares I am.
Even when God says there are no

1124
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:06,880
God beside me, he's saying there
are other gods that exist,

1125
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:08,440
right?
What he's saying is there's no

1126
01:12:08,440 --> 01:12:10,720
gods that compare to me.
There's nothing like me.

1127
01:12:10,920 --> 01:12:13,640
There are gods, though, you
know, All right.

1128
01:12:14,440 --> 01:12:17,800
And so, and that's an element
that's essential for

1129
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:20,920
understanding exaltation.
And then you get into the New

1130
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:24,600
Testament, OK, now that I'm a
part of the family of God of

1131
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:27,400
Israel that have been grafted
in, if I'm a Gentile or I've

1132
01:12:27,400 --> 01:12:30,920
already been a part of it
because I was born here, what

1133
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:34,520
does that mean for me in the
grand scheme of eternity?

1134
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:38,800
And in the grand scheme of
eternity, according to the New

1135
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:43,120
Testament, I would argue that is
participation with Christ.

1136
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:46,240
And and so that text that I
quoted earlier in Romans chapter

1137
01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:49,440
8, right, Children of Christ,
children of God.

1138
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:54,640
And what's the condition if we
suffer and what is the, what's

1139
01:12:54,640 --> 01:12:56,240
the consequence?
What happens after the

1140
01:12:56,240 --> 01:12:58,520
suffering?
And we are that we become the

1141
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:02,040
children of God.
We are glorified together with

1142
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:05,320
him, right.
So we receive glory.

1143
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:08,680
There is glory that God shares
with his children.

1144
01:13:10,960 --> 01:13:14,080
Then we get into Peter becoming
partakers of the divine nature

1145
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:21,720
Book of Revelation to him who
overcomes will I grant to sit on

1146
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:29,520
my throne and I'm seeing this
and I'm and I'm I'm thinking, Oh

1147
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:33,440
my word, the Lord has so much
more in store for me than I just

1148
01:13:33,440 --> 01:13:36,520
thought growing up, growing up
where I said we're going to go

1149
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:39,840
and worship his angels, blow the
trumpet and just spend all our

1150
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:42,320
days bowing and worshiping God
in heaven, right.

1151
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:46,440
That was my picture of heaven, a
very medieval Catholic view.

1152
01:13:47,920 --> 01:13:53,560
But I'm seeing more and I'm
realizing that exaltation is a

1153
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:56,720
part of it.
So as I'm diving into, OK, I

1154
01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:57,720
believe the Book of Mormon is
true.

1155
01:13:57,720 --> 01:13:59,560
So what else comes, what else
comes with this Joseph Smith

1156
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,200
thing?
Looking into all these beliefs,

1157
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:05,640
reading the Doctrine and
Covenants, diving into it, OK,

1158
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:10,480
yeah, all these scriptures about
exaltation, right?

1159
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,400
Makes sense.
They're biblical, right?

1160
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:19,280
And and the idea of becoming
God, a God, does not replace the

1161
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:23,600
glory and majesty in awe of God.
In fact, I believe that

1162
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:28,240
exaltation is the greatest act
of worship there is, because

1163
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:29,840
imagine, take.
Yeah, right.

1164
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:32,360
Imagine taking this man.
Look at me.

1165
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:36,120
I am this awful Wretch, right?
This is a trustworthy saying

1166
01:14:36,480 --> 01:14:39,320
that Jesus Christ came into the
into the world to save sinners,

1167
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:43,000
of whom I am the worst.
First Timothy 1-2 or two.

1168
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:45,680
It's chapter 2115.
Or one of the one of the others

1169
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:49,200
anyway, right?
That's who I am, taking that

1170
01:14:49,480 --> 01:14:54,560
taking that Wretch of a man and
making him into this marvelous

1171
01:14:55,040 --> 01:15:00,000
creature, giving him glory
because he has overcome all

1172
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,200
things by the power of God's
grace through the atonement of

1173
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:05,960
Jesus Christ.
That is worship, but that

1174
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:08,840
doesn't mean that the worship is
taken away from the Father.

1175
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:12,200
The Doctrine and Covenant says,
Wherefore they are gods, even

1176
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:16,880
the sons of gods.
So let no man worship in man,

1177
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:19,680
but let him glory in God who
shall subdue all things under

1178
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:22,680
his feet.
It is because of God's subduing

1179
01:15:23,160 --> 01:15:27,080
and, and of under his feet and,
and making us into these

1180
01:15:27,080 --> 01:15:31,480
creatures by his power, by his
regeneration, him participating

1181
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:34,280
synergistically with us as we
make covenants with him that

1182
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:37,880
we're able to, to, to come into
something that we can never

1183
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:40,200
imagine.
And it doesn't take glory away

1184
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:46,480
from God, it adds to His glory.
That's dude, that is awesome.

1185
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:50,200
I, you know, I thought about
that before, but not that

1186
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:51,360
deeply.
But you're right.

1187
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:56,440
I mean, you want to talk about
a, a God that is mighty to save.

1188
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,680
How about a God that's mighty to
exalt, right?

1189
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:03,600
That's, that's a different
animal, but that's what's

1190
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:07,360
offered through the restoration.
Let let me ask you this.

1191
01:16:07,600 --> 01:16:11,600
How did you deal with the
Trinity, right?

1192
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:14,040
I imagine you were a
Trinitarian, yes.

1193
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:19,720
And and shifting now to this
idea of of three distinct beings

1194
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:25,720
who enthroned in, in not just
glory, but flesh and bone as

1195
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:28,520
well.
But was that rough to make that

1196
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:31,200
leap?
So it's it's quite fascinating.

1197
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:33,840
So more broadly speaking, the
Campbellite movement is called

1198
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:38,160
the Stone Campbell movement
because Camp Alexander Campbell

1199
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:40,960
and his is not the only player
here.

1200
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:47,800
You also have a a guy called
Barton W Stone.

1201
01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:52,040
He's a Kentucky boy like me.
And in fact, the candlelight

1202
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:54,400
movement was originally kind of
organized in Kentucky.

1203
01:16:54,400 --> 01:17:02,560
But anyway, fascinatingly
enough, the there was this

1204
01:17:03,440 --> 01:17:06,560
Alexander Campbell, one of the
Co founders of movement is a

1205
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:08,880
Trinitarian.
Barton W Stone is not a

1206
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:11,320
Trinitarian.
And the movement was able to get

1207
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:14,440
along with each other.
They said, Oh, OK, this is one

1208
01:17:14,440 --> 01:17:17,120
of those issues that we can
understand that maybe there's

1209
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:21,640
not as much clarity in the New
Testament text to understand

1210
01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:25,120
that maybe some of this is a
later in, in edition by

1211
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:31,520
Catholicism within the apostasy,
which is another doctrine within

1212
01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:33,520
the rest the the Campbellite
movement.

1213
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:37,680
So there's some division there.
I would say in the modern day,

1214
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:40,840
just because that's how this
these things work, most

1215
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:42,560
Campbellites are going to be
Trinitarians.

1216
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:45,760
And that was kind of the
understanding that I was growing

1217
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:47,160
up.
I grew up, grew up with and I

1218
01:17:47,160 --> 01:17:51,160
didn't know anything about
Barton West Stone growing up.

1219
01:17:51,160 --> 01:17:53,680
We didn't talk about our
founders the way we talked about

1220
01:17:54,000 --> 01:17:58,800
the founders of Mormonism.
So I didn't know about him.

1221
01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:00,840
I didn't know he was a not a
Trinitarian.

1222
01:18:01,600 --> 01:18:04,400
So, but I would just mention
that to say there is a framework

1223
01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:07,240
within my faith movement or with
the faith movement I grew up in

1224
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:10,800
to articulate a non trinitarian
position.

1225
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:16,080
That being said, I was a
trinitarian and it was one of

1226
01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:19,920
the the prickling issues because
as I was engaging in the anti

1227
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:23,120
Mormon material, right?
That was one of the big pushes

1228
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:24,800
right there.
There's only one God.

1229
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:29,320
He exists in three persons, you
know, one being the homoeosia

1230
01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:33,560
and all these things, however
complex and nonsensical it is.

1231
01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:39,320
That's what I was being told was
the central conflict with

1232
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:40,920
Mormonism.
That's what made it a different

1233
01:18:40,920 --> 01:18:43,280
Jesus.
That's what made it wholly

1234
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:45,800
separate from biblical
Christianity.

1235
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:49,240
So it was, it was a, it was a
thorn.

1236
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:50,960
It was a very, it was a very big
thorn.

1237
01:18:50,960 --> 01:18:55,960
How did I deal with it?
Just by being patient, reading

1238
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,520
the scriptures and evaluating
them for themselves and asking,

1239
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:01,440
is this really what the text
means?

1240
01:19:01,440 --> 01:19:04,120
I think that's one of the ways
you can arrive it at some truth

1241
01:19:04,120 --> 01:19:06,080
is you assume a text means a
certain thing.

1242
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:08,240
Is that actually what it says?
When I look at the language,

1243
01:19:08,440 --> 01:19:12,640
when I read OK, the text says
the Father, the Son and the Holy

1244
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:15,000
Spirit.
Does that mean that they're this

1245
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:20,120
one complex being with three
separate persons and that there

1246
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:23,480
are certain ways of dividing
them and but there are other

1247
01:19:23,480 --> 01:19:27,000
ways that you can't divide them.
And in fact, according to the

1248
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:31,800
the curriculum of or the the
list of criteria for how you

1249
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:33,200
would divide the person of the
Trinity.

1250
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:35,240
The Bible violates that all the
time.

1251
01:19:36,480 --> 01:19:39,440
If you if you really look
closely and it was really

1252
01:19:39,440 --> 01:19:43,560
getting in a text like John
reading that high priestly

1253
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:47,040
prayer and understanding, what
does oneness mean in the New

1254
01:19:47,040 --> 01:19:51,400
Testament, right?
What does oneness mean in the

1255
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:57,440
Shema in Deuteronomy 6?
And it's very clear to me that

1256
01:19:57,440 --> 01:20:02,480
oneness is not ontological, that
is of being right.

1257
01:20:02,480 --> 01:20:05,120
There's not one being three
persons, but it's more of a

1258
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:08,040
societal unity, right?
There's a social Trinity.

1259
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:12,920
We are social Trinitarians.
So there were a number of

1260
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:17,920
different ways that I write that
John was a big one was Jurgen

1261
01:20:17,920 --> 01:20:21,480
Moultmon, the one that wrote the
book The Crucified God, and he

1262
01:20:21,480 --> 01:20:24,120
articulates his view, I believe,
of the social Trinity.

1263
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:27,160
It's been a while since I've
read it so I don't remember, but

1264
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:32,160
I'm able to look at these, yeah.
And by social Trinity and and

1265
01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:35,880
because I I want to make sure
everyone understands this 3

1266
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:38,080
distinct people, but one in
purpose correct.

1267
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:39,840
Is that a fair assessment of
social?

1268
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:41,640
Unity.
It's it's the Mormon view of the

1269
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:42,520
godhead.
OK.

1270
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,760
Perfect.
And in fact, if you're reading,

1271
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:48,360
you're reading Brigham Young in
journal discourses.

1272
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:51,200
Sometimes he uses the word
Trinity in some of his sermons.

1273
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:55,720
He does, Yep.
Even James Talmadge, who you

1274
01:20:55,720 --> 01:21:01,240
know, I'm not the biggest fan
of, we we could talk about him.

1275
01:21:02,360 --> 01:21:07,280
You and I will have to do an
episode on Talmage one day and

1276
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:09,320
then we'll go from there.
OK, yeah.

1277
01:21:10,120 --> 01:21:13,440
So even Talmage in the Articles
of Faith book that he writes

1278
01:21:13,440 --> 01:21:16,600
where he's he's breaking down
the 13 articles of faith, he

1279
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:21,680
uses the word Trinity as the as
the definition of the Godhead.

1280
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:25,040
He doesn't mean it in the sense
that the classical Trinitarians

1281
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:27,080
believe.
He just means it in this

1282
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:33,080
societal unit, unity of purpose.
And so, yeah, so I'm, I'm

1283
01:21:33,080 --> 01:21:35,480
dealing with it in that way.
I'm finding different, different

1284
01:21:35,480 --> 01:21:39,520
routes.
Looking at how early church

1285
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:42,400
fathers understood these issues,
doesn't appear that they were

1286
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:45,880
Trinitarians.
No, yeah, no.

1287
01:21:46,440 --> 01:21:49,240
I got I got two more and then we
can continue on with the story.

1288
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:51,440
But I'm finding this part really
fascinating.

1289
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:55,520
So how do you deal with
priesthood, right?

1290
01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:58,400
Because in in in an evangelical
kind of model.

1291
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:01,520
And I don't know if it's fair to
call the count your the the

1292
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:04,200
Campbellite tradition
evangelical, but I think it's

1293
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:06,800
fairly similar or Protestant.
Right.

1294
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:12,960
But this in in evangelicalism or
Protestantism, there's this idea

1295
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:16,000
of the priesthood of all
believers, right?

1296
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:17,240
Sure.
Yeah, First Peter.

1297
01:22:17,240 --> 01:22:22,480
So how do you go from that to a
very tangible priesthood, right?

1298
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:28,080
Because as, as, as I understood
the idea of Protestantism, it's

1299
01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:31,160
more of this thing that just
floats kind of in the ether.

1300
01:22:31,160 --> 01:22:35,040
And you, you can access it by
being, you know, having faith in

1301
01:22:35,040 --> 01:22:37,720
Christ.
Joseph's things a little bit

1302
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:39,520
different.
You know, obviously you need

1303
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:43,720
faith in Christ, but this is
something a little more tactile

1304
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:46,720
as far as a priesthood, if, if
that's a good way of describing

1305
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:51,120
it, how how do you wrap your
mind around that, going from a

1306
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:55,040
priesthood of all believers to a
very, again, kind of tactile

1307
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:58,680
priesthood?
So yeah, that was and that was

1308
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:01,360
the understanding that I grew up
with was the priesthood of all

1309
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:05,600
believers.
My the faith movement in the

1310
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:11,240
Campbellites don't require
ministerial certificates or or

1311
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:14,320
nations you you're not going to
be have hands laid on your head

1312
01:23:14,320 --> 01:23:17,920
and confirm you a a minister of
the gospel and and to an office

1313
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:23,120
such as evangelist right.
That just doesn't exist And and

1314
01:23:23,120 --> 01:23:26,240
we are anti that church is anti
hierarchy to the extent that

1315
01:23:26,240 --> 01:23:30,640
only the local church matters.
There is no over there's no

1316
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:34,920
overarching body.
The other churches will work

1317
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:39,120
together, but there's no unified
priesthood and the only offices

1318
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:42,600
there are evangelist, Deacon,
and elder.

1319
01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:49,680
An elder is just like at the
body of member body of men who

1320
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:53,360
oversee A congregation.
Deacons are men that serve below

1321
01:23:53,360 --> 01:23:56,040
them and the evangelist is the
preacher.

1322
01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:00,720
Don't call him a pastor.
They'll RIP you to shreds for

1323
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:05,800
some reason.
I don't know why, but but yeah,

1324
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:10,320
so I had that understanding and
and and to a degree it makes

1325
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:14,720
sense.
So there are a number of things

1326
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:18,280
and and I can't take the credit
to myself.

1327
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:22,120
Like again, along the way with
all these theological insights,

1328
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:25,200
some of them are, you know, of
my own and then others are from

1329
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:29,520
just engaging with materials and
reading a big a big help in the

1330
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:32,000
realm of priesthood.
And I cannot for the life of me

1331
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:35,880
remember the name of the book at
the moment, but Robert Boylan,

1332
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:41,320
he's an amazing, amazing guy,
really kind man in the church.

1333
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:44,960
There's a lot of great
apologetics, wrote a book about

1334
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:47,000
the priesthood and he has
several articles on scriptural

1335
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:50,680
Mormonism, blog about the
priesthood and articulating.

1336
01:24:51,000 --> 01:24:54,080
And it's interesting to note.
And I remember reading this

1337
01:24:54,080 --> 01:24:55,800
article about his and, and you
actually dive into the

1338
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:58,560
scriptures and it's true.
You know, the text in first

1339
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:02,360
Peter that talks about the
universal priesthood is an

1340
01:25:02,360 --> 01:25:07,000
allusion to it's quoting,
referencing a text in the Torah

1341
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:12,360
and in that section of
Scripture, the exact references

1342
01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:19,000
is escaping me at the moment.
I think it's Exodus, but it

1343
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:20,960
mentions the unit that
priesthood that you know, that

1344
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:23,400
more priesthood of all
believers, but it's within the

1345
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:28,160
context of an existing sacred
total priesthood that is actual

1346
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:32,360
clerical system, a system of set
apart priests.

1347
01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:37,160
So you have A and this is how
you know, the Catholic Church

1348
01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:38,640
does.
You know, there's a Sacramento

1349
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:40,400
priesthood, which is the
priesthood of people who have

1350
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:44,040
the holy orders, the actual
priests that were the the collar

1351
01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:45,520
and everything.
And then you have just lay

1352
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:47,400
people that are priesthood of
all believers.

1353
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:52,040
And that's how I think it.
That's that's how we can

1354
01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:54,240
understand that best.
SO looking at the Scriptures in

1355
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:59,040
that way, thinking about that,
seeing priestly language even

1356
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:03,680
within the New Testament, the
fact that in the letters of

1357
01:26:03,680 --> 01:26:07,160
Paul, it's quite clear that
right, he says, what is the

1358
01:26:07,160 --> 01:26:12,880
pillar and foundation of is it
truth or is the church?

1359
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:18,240
So there's a certain, there's a
certain relationship with the

1360
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:22,520
church, this idea of an actual
body, not just the Bible alone.

1361
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:26,360
And I rely on that and I'm my
own priest and but there's a

1362
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:29,800
structure, the fact that when
there was a question as to how

1363
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:33,600
Gentiles are being included in
the church, what would it what

1364
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:37,400
are the what are the people?
Do they go and defer to the

1365
01:26:37,400 --> 01:26:41,080
council in Jerusalem in Acts
chapter 15, you know, they have

1366
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:43,880
this question.
So they go there and they James

1367
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:46,080
gives the decision.
He says we're not going to

1368
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:49,480
trouble the Gentiles, but in
these four areas so that then

1369
01:26:49,480 --> 01:26:52,080
from there they can go and learn
in the synagogues of Moses.

1370
01:26:52,600 --> 01:26:59,480
And you see a church that is
wholly different than that.

1371
01:26:59,480 --> 01:27:01,120
Priests of all believers,
They're separate.

1372
01:27:01,440 --> 01:27:06,920
Ephesians chapter 2.
So key or Ephesians 4, right,

1373
01:27:06,920 --> 01:27:09,320
that the idea of a foundation of
apostles and prophets.

1374
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:11,880
Why?
So that we don't get tossed

1375
01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:13,720
about to and fro in every wind
of doctrine.

1376
01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:17,640
We need prophets and apostles to
keep us on track.

1377
01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:24,600
Their goal is to call us to
repentance and so that's that's

1378
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:28,160
how I work through it.
OK, two more and then I think

1379
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:30,840
this will will take care of the
stuff that I could see right off

1380
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:34,280
the bat that would really be
problematic joining the LDS

1381
01:27:34,280 --> 01:27:35,680
Church.
And then we may do this again

1382
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:37,920
when when you dive a little
deeper.

1383
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:44,880
So the next one is this idea of
eternal marriage and eternal

1384
01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:48,120
families and then even on up to
polygamy, right?

1385
01:27:48,120 --> 01:27:52,640
Because we, you know, as as I've
talked with with friends I have

1386
01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:54,840
that are evangelicals.
One of the things they get hung

1387
01:27:54,840 --> 01:27:58,080
up on is that scripture in
Matthew where the Savior tells

1388
01:27:58,080 --> 01:28:00,760
them that they are neither
married nor given in marriage.

1389
01:28:02,280 --> 01:28:04,960
And so that that tends to be a
sticking point there.

1390
01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:10,040
How'd you overcome that?
And then even if you are a, a

1391
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:13,800
guy just coming in to the LDS
church, you may not have to deal

1392
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:18,080
with it in, in, in, in the
reality of things, but you

1393
01:28:18,080 --> 01:28:21,800
certainly have to deal with
polygamy and the theological

1394
01:28:21,800 --> 01:28:23,640
sense.
So how did you get get past

1395
01:28:23,640 --> 01:28:26,760
those two things?
So it's interesting that the

1396
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:28,920
last holdout with the
missionaries, because I was

1397
01:28:28,920 --> 01:28:30,480
remember I talked about counting
the cost.

1398
01:28:30,480 --> 01:28:32,760
I was really worried, didn't
want to do this, didn't want to

1399
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:35,480
commit.
The last holdout issue was the

1400
01:28:35,480 --> 01:28:38,760
eternal families.
I was like, I just I don't know

1401
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,960
that Matthew, Matthew Scripture.
That seems to be pretty nail on

1402
01:28:42,960 --> 01:28:49,200
the head against that.
And there were a number of

1403
01:28:49,200 --> 01:28:53,080
things that helped me get over
that the testimony of the

1404
01:28:53,080 --> 01:28:56,720
missionaries of of the
relationships that they had with

1405
01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:58,760
with their family and being
sealed.

1406
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:04,800
That was all I remember one day
sitting in the Chapel and one of

1407
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:08,520
those elders just bearing his
heart out about eternal

1408
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:12,360
families.
And I, I wept.

1409
01:29:12,360 --> 01:29:14,920
I mean, I really did.
And that was a big one.

1410
01:29:16,880 --> 01:29:20,440
But then, you know, having to
get over the logical side of

1411
01:29:20,440 --> 01:29:22,000
things.
There's a number of things,

1412
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:27,880
right?
One thing that doesn't make

1413
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:33,320
sense to me is why would God
ordained marriage put it on this

1414
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:36,400
earth and then have it be a
temporary thing, right?

1415
01:29:37,120 --> 01:29:40,200
Makes no sense.
I'm going to get your hopes up.

1416
01:29:40,320 --> 01:29:42,640
I'm going to make you fall in
love and then I'm going to tear

1417
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:46,000
that bond apart.
But you know, the, the reality

1418
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:48,120
is, oh, it's eclipsed by how
much you love God.

1419
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:49,560
So therefore you're not even
going to think about your

1420
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:53,200
spouse, right?
It, it, it, it makes no sense.

1421
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:57,760
It, it makes, it makes even the
law of chastity nonsensical.

1422
01:29:57,960 --> 01:30:02,760
Like if, if we only have Paul
says, if we only have hope in

1423
01:30:02,760 --> 01:30:05,520
Christ in this life, how we are
above all men, most to be

1424
01:30:05,520 --> 01:30:08,400
pitied.
If I only have hope that my

1425
01:30:08,400 --> 01:30:11,880
marital bonds are only exist in
this life, I'm most to be

1426
01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:14,520
pitied, right, because that's a
relationship that matters so

1427
01:30:14,520 --> 01:30:17,440
much, right?
I I'm not married, but I imagine

1428
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:21,200
that that is a relationship that
matters so much, and I see it in

1429
01:30:21,200 --> 01:30:22,640
the relationship that I have
with Christ.

1430
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:28,560
Dude, I've been married, so I'll
be married to Amber 30 years

1431
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:31,480
this November, OK?
I got married when I was young.

1432
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:35,280
I've been married to Tanya for
two years, just over 2 years.

1433
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:40,520
Yeah.
And there's a lot of work that

1434
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:43,320
goes into marriage, right?
It's worth it, right?

1435
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:44,880
I'm not, I'm not saying it's not
worth it.

1436
01:30:44,880 --> 01:30:50,080
It's 150% worth it, sure.
But it's work, right?

1437
01:30:50,160 --> 01:30:54,680
And look to be married to me.
Like that'll prepare you for

1438
01:30:54,680 --> 01:31:00,880
sainthood really quickly.
So, but so, but in, in those

1439
01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:03,520
relationships, I mean, you're
working on this, right?

1440
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:07,040
And there are tough times that
you slog through, but

1441
01:31:07,040 --> 01:31:10,720
nonetheless, you look at those
older couples or you look at

1442
01:31:10,720 --> 01:31:15,920
those older families who've been
together forever and they've

1443
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:18,880
grown together.
I mean, they, they are almost

1444
01:31:19,320 --> 01:31:23,760
one, right, Right.
I, I, the first thing I think

1445
01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:26,880
about is how many stories are
there of grandparents that die

1446
01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:29,160
within months of each other,
right?

1447
01:31:29,160 --> 01:31:33,080
Because one leaves, one's gone,
and the other just can't go on

1448
01:31:33,080 --> 01:31:35,560
anymore because part of them is
gone, right?

1449
01:31:35,880 --> 01:31:38,960
And I weep to think about what
it must be like to have to go

1450
01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:44,040
through that without the
knowledge that it's OK.

1451
01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:46,800
It, it, it, it, this is
temporary.

1452
01:31:48,640 --> 01:31:52,080
It makes no sense to the
rational mind that you would put

1453
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:57,240
that much work into something,
grow together, be knit together

1454
01:31:58,400 --> 01:32:02,280
and a just and loving God is now
going to say, yeah, you know

1455
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:02,880
what?
You don't.

1456
01:32:03,160 --> 01:32:05,000
Yeah.
Those relationships that you

1457
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:07,160
knew, those are gone.
I mean, you may get to see each

1458
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:10,040
other, but sure, it's it's not
going to be like that.

1459
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:13,440
And if we have a perfect
recollection and and I know

1460
01:32:13,440 --> 01:32:15,520
you're not married yet, you'll
you'll get there.

1461
01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:20,960
But it would be like having to
if your recollection is perfect

1462
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:22,680
and you look at your spouse.
Mm hmm.

1463
01:32:23,440 --> 01:32:25,160
Only they're not your spouse
anymore.

1464
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:29,440
And you think about all those
times newlyweds raising your

1465
01:32:29,440 --> 01:32:33,480
babies together to have it just
disappear.

1466
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:35,960
That is not a just and loving
God.

1467
01:32:35,960 --> 01:32:38,040
There is no way that fits his
character.

1468
01:32:38,440 --> 01:32:42,880
No, to quote Joseph, this, this
we cannot believe, you know, I

1469
01:32:43,680 --> 01:32:50,440
right, I, I just, I even, I even
think just going off of the

1470
01:32:50,440 --> 01:32:53,840
scriptures, the book of Hosea is
a really, I mean, the whole, the

1471
01:32:53,840 --> 01:32:56,760
whole scriptures are about us
being the bride.

1472
01:32:57,480 --> 01:33:01,160
But I think of the story of
Hosea and Gomer, right, that

1473
01:33:01,160 --> 01:33:04,280
they're married no matter what.
Hosea in this instance

1474
01:33:04,280 --> 01:33:07,600
represents the father, you know,
and Gomer's the wife.

1475
01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:10,800
And and no matter what the bad
times are, no matter what

1476
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:16,320
happens, you know, the father is
still there.

1477
01:33:16,320 --> 01:33:19,160
Say, I mean, the husband is
saying, I want you bride, like,

1478
01:33:19,160 --> 01:33:20,920
right.
Like whatever we go through and

1479
01:33:20,920 --> 01:33:22,680
guess what?
We're going to end up together

1480
01:33:22,680 --> 01:33:26,440
forever, you know, And so we as
believers who are the bride of

1481
01:33:26,440 --> 01:33:28,560
Christ get to be with God
forever.

1482
01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:33,880
So then why can't we be together
with those that we go through

1483
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:35,520
those same trials and hard times
with?

1484
01:33:36,640 --> 01:33:41,600
I don't know if it's a perfect
analogy, but that really is what

1485
01:33:41,600 --> 01:33:46,880
I think, you know, is like, OK,
God puts up with us and puts up

1486
01:33:46,880 --> 01:33:50,160
with all this.
And, you know, we go through we,

1487
01:33:50,160 --> 01:33:51,640
we go through the wringer with
God.

1488
01:33:51,640 --> 01:33:55,280
We experience life and all these
different moments.

1489
01:33:55,280 --> 01:33:59,400
And at the end, his only desire
is to have us with him.

1490
01:33:59,920 --> 01:34:03,200
Well, I think that's the same.
He has put eternity in our

1491
01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:06,080
hearts.
He has put that desire within

1492
01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:10,280
us.
And so I think it logically must

1493
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:14,200
mean then that he wants us to be
with our loved ones forever.

1494
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:18,880
And, and I think that's what the
Scriptures bear out, right?

1495
01:34:18,880 --> 01:34:23,360
That his, his heart's desire and
prayer is to turn the hearts of

1496
01:34:23,360 --> 01:34:25,480
the fathers to the children and
the hearts, the children of the

1497
01:34:25,480 --> 01:34:27,560
fathers.
That means families stay

1498
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:31,280
together.
Our hearts become knit together,

1499
01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:35,920
you know, bind things on earth.
Whatever the Lord is bound

1500
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:37,920
together.
Let no man put asunder, right?

1501
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:43,720
If the twain become one, OK,
that's got to be, that's got to

1502
01:34:43,720 --> 01:34:45,880
be proof of eternal marriage,
because now we're one.

1503
01:34:45,880 --> 01:34:48,640
We're not two things.
So if God is saving us, he's

1504
01:34:48,640 --> 01:34:51,760
saving the one of us, which is
both of us together.

1505
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:55,160
There's no, there's no
distinction, right?

1506
01:34:55,560 --> 01:35:00,920
We are now ontologically in a
sense one, not literally, but

1507
01:35:01,440 --> 01:35:04,760
maybe metaphysically would
probably be a better term to use

1508
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:05,960
there.
We're metaphysically 1.

1509
01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:12,400
So our souls are one, right?
So I think, I think that's

1510
01:35:12,400 --> 01:35:13,680
something we have to keep in
mind.

1511
01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:18,400
And then with Matthew, I think
that scripture, as far as I

1512
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:22,400
understand the Greek grammar, it
appears that the I'm by no means

1513
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:26,440
a grammarian of Greek, but I'm
just what I've read and talked

1514
01:35:26,440 --> 01:35:30,600
to you read Robert Boylan's blog
and other people and, and looked

1515
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:35,600
at the Greek myself and tried to
puzzle through it as little as I

1516
01:35:35,600 --> 01:35:38,040
can.
It appears to be that these

1517
01:35:38,280 --> 01:35:41,680
these words here about married
and given in marriage are

1518
01:35:42,640 --> 01:35:46,280
referring are there participles?
So marriage married.

1519
01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:48,880
What does that mean?
A man is married to a woman, a

1520
01:35:48,880 --> 01:35:50,760
woman is given in marriage,
right.

1521
01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:52,120
So that's that's what we're
talking about.

1522
01:35:52,440 --> 01:35:55,720
So what he's saying there is in
heaven, they're going to be no

1523
01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:59,360
marriage ceremonies like it's
it's done like the the bonds

1524
01:35:59,360 --> 01:36:01,800
that were set here in this life
are the bonds that are going in

1525
01:36:02,880 --> 01:36:05,480
men, you can't be married.
You cannot go through the

1526
01:36:05,480 --> 01:36:08,600
marriage ceremony in the
resurrection and get up there in

1527
01:36:08,600 --> 01:36:10,520
heaven.
Women, you're not going to be

1528
01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:12,520
after the resurrection.
You're not going to be given in

1529
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:15,680
marriage anymore that the time
of that probation is up.

1530
01:36:17,440 --> 01:36:20,120
Which makes temple work all?
Which makes temple work all the

1531
01:36:20,120 --> 01:36:21,600
more important, right?
Exactly.

1532
01:36:21,600 --> 01:36:24,280
It really does.
It gives a certain urgency to

1533
01:36:24,280 --> 01:36:26,520
that.
And and then we also understand

1534
01:36:26,520 --> 01:36:29,320
in the context of that passage,
it's people who don't even

1535
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:31,440
believe in the resurrection.
And he's talking about Leverett

1536
01:36:31,440 --> 01:36:35,400
marriage, which actually, you
know, funny enough, requires

1537
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:41,000
that polygamy is a thing.
So the concepts that Jesus is

1538
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:44,320
talking about literally
necessitate polygamy in the

1539
01:36:44,320 --> 01:36:52,120
instance of deceased spouses.
But so, yeah, that's how I kind

1540
01:36:52,120 --> 01:36:54,920
of dealt with eternal marriage,
a lot of those things and just

1541
01:36:54,920 --> 01:36:59,880
seeing the beauty of it, like
I've, I've prayed for so long

1542
01:36:59,920 --> 01:37:01,760
that that would be something
that I could build.

1543
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:08,200
I want to build a life with
someone or someone's now when we

1544
01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:10,400
get into the fundamentalist.
Decision, boy.

1545
01:37:11,200 --> 01:37:12,920
I see what you did there.
I saw what you did.

1546
01:37:15,040 --> 01:37:18,760
You know, if the if the Lord
makes that way prepared and, and

1547
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:22,520
and allows that to happen, then
you know I will, I will gladly

1548
01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:26,440
submit.
And if it's right, it's right.

1549
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:31,320
But I want to build that life.
I want to have a family that

1550
01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:37,040
that worships the Lord.
And the best way, if we are

1551
01:37:37,040 --> 01:37:39,520
eternal creatures, the best way
I can see that is through an

1552
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:44,640
eternal family, a family unit
united, united together to

1553
01:37:44,640 --> 01:37:50,040
worship God in all instances.
That is in looking at God and

1554
01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:53,280
his Christ and worshiping and
bowing down and then also being

1555
01:37:53,280 --> 01:37:57,080
sent out and worshiping him by
creating worlds without end of

1556
01:37:57,160 --> 01:38:01,480
of pop propagating species.
And that's an act of worship.

1557
01:38:01,480 --> 01:38:04,240
So that's that's so beautiful
that concept for me.

1558
01:38:05,320 --> 01:38:06,800
So that's how I deal dealt with
that.

1559
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:09,840
And then polygamy issue.
It's weird.

1560
01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:13,040
Like, I don't know, I guess when
I was anti Mormon, I hated

1561
01:38:13,040 --> 01:38:16,360
polygamy, but then like it just
really wasn't an issue.

1562
01:38:16,360 --> 01:38:17,960
I didn't care.
I didn't think about it.

1563
01:38:18,920 --> 01:38:22,280
You're kind of proving a point
for me, which is anybody who

1564
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:25,760
really studies the Bible right.
You can't have that much of a

1565
01:38:25,760 --> 01:38:27,800
problem with plural marriage.
You can't.

1566
01:38:29,400 --> 01:38:31,880
Yeah.
In, in fact, right there, there

1567
01:38:31,880 --> 01:38:37,640
are more instances of, there are
more instances of plural

1568
01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:42,960
marriage in uniquely biblical
scripture than there are in the

1569
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:44,880
rest of in the Mormon Canon,
Right.

1570
01:38:44,880 --> 01:38:50,040
Like we have in the Mormon
Canon, we have DNC 132, we have

1571
01:38:50,040 --> 01:38:54,160
the several revelations of John
Taylor and Wolford Woodruff, and

1572
01:38:54,160 --> 01:38:56,960
we have there's that early
revelation of Joseph Smith that

1573
01:38:56,960 --> 01:39:00,440
commands him commandments about
the Lamanites to wife and things

1574
01:39:00,440 --> 01:39:03,400
like this.
So there are there it it exists

1575
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:06,760
in the Mormon Canon and it's
absolutely was practiced.

1576
01:39:06,760 --> 01:39:10,640
And but in terms of just sheer
instances in scripture, it's all

1577
01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:13,400
over the Bible.
Like you can't get around it.

1578
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:15,640
More so than any of those
others.

1579
01:39:18,120 --> 01:39:21,520
What I do think is that the
Mormon scriptures add to our

1580
01:39:21,520 --> 01:39:26,520
theology of polygamy more than
they do just the sheer fact of

1581
01:39:26,560 --> 01:39:30,640
polygamy's existence and
persistence within the Christian

1582
01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:34,000
world.
But yeah, Abraham was a

1583
01:39:34,000 --> 01:39:38,320
polygamist, you know, Solomon
was, David was.

1584
01:39:38,560 --> 01:39:41,240
And in fact, guess what?
Thus saith the Lord.

1585
01:39:41,240 --> 01:39:43,680
I gave you your master's wives.
That's what they that's what

1586
01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:47,000
Nathan says to delivers from the
Lord to David, right?

1587
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:49,680
I'm the one who gave you this
God.

1588
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:53,840
God gives wives.
So that's just the reality of

1589
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:54,840
it.
We can't get around it.

1590
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:57,440
Joash did what was right in the
side of the Lord and got for him

1591
01:39:57,440 --> 01:40:01,760
2 spouses, 2 wives.
That's in Second Chronicles,

1592
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:03,360
right?
Yeah, it's just all over.

1593
01:40:03,440 --> 01:40:05,280
So yeah, you can't have a
problem with it.

1594
01:40:05,760 --> 01:40:08,040
That kind of makes sense.
And that kind of proves my point

1595
01:40:08,040 --> 01:40:13,240
that I think if, if someone is
really honest after they read

1596
01:40:13,240 --> 01:40:16,920
Scripture, especially in the Old
Testament, oh, yeah.

1597
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:19,360
It's it's going to be hard to
get around, right.

1598
01:40:19,360 --> 01:40:20,720
It's going to be real hard to
get around.

1599
01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:21,920
But yeah.
OK.

1600
01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:25,080
So that's great.
Sorry to take us on that side

1601
01:40:25,080 --> 01:40:27,720
tangent, but I, I was fascinated
on how you got there.

1602
01:40:27,720 --> 01:40:31,680
So, so now you, you, you're
talking to the elders, right?

1603
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:33,440
You're getting ready to join the
LDS church.

1604
01:40:34,040 --> 01:40:35,520
Tell me about what happens from
there.

1605
01:40:36,400 --> 01:40:39,680
So yeah, like I said, the
eternal Fems were the last

1606
01:40:39,680 --> 01:40:42,280
holdout.
All those testimonies of the

1607
01:40:42,280 --> 01:40:47,520
elders and the other issues that
I'm working through

1608
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:50,240
theologically to understand
eternal marriage get resolved.

1609
01:40:50,760 --> 01:40:55,560
And so I make that decision and
the why, what was the what was

1610
01:40:55,560 --> 01:41:04,400
the final linchpin moment?
So I am, I'm in Arkansas right

1611
01:41:04,400 --> 01:41:14,840
now at this point, and the
elders tell me we're having a

1612
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:21,680
fireside in Little Rock next
week and Elders Holland and

1613
01:41:21,680 --> 01:41:25,880
Ukdorf are going to be there.
They're going to speak to us and

1614
01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:28,600
we want you to come.
They've been trying to get me to

1615
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:30,160
be baptized.
I wouldn't do it.

1616
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:38,000
And so I agreed.
I was really excited because I

1617
01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:43,920
loved, I loved Elder Holland.
I don't know if I still can, but

1618
01:41:43,920 --> 01:41:47,640
for a while I could recite
Safety for the Soul because that

1619
01:41:47,640 --> 01:41:50,440
was the that talk where he's
like, you know, about the

1620
01:41:50,440 --> 01:41:52,880
sacrifice of Joseph, Like they
would not lie, right?

1621
01:41:53,360 --> 01:41:56,000
They would not do that.
They were willing to die.

1622
01:41:56,000 --> 01:41:57,880
That's.
Back in the days when he was

1623
01:41:57,880 --> 01:42:00,840
spitting fire.
That's right back at way back in

1624
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:06,240
O 9 and I was coming to a much
later, but I found that talk and

1625
01:42:06,240 --> 01:42:09,560
really latched onto it and and
fell in love with Elder

1626
01:42:09,560 --> 01:42:15,120
Holland's person and His
Majesty, his character, his

1627
01:42:15,120 --> 01:42:18,840
personality, the way he the way
he preached the gospel without

1628
01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:26,240
relenting or flinching back.
And so I got excited, went to

1629
01:42:26,240 --> 01:42:33,080
that, and I got to sit in the
front row so close to Elder

1630
01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:36,720
Holland that when he's preaching
so passionately, spit flew in my

1631
01:42:36,760 --> 01:42:39,520
face and hit my cheek.
And I still haven't washed this

1632
01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:41,360
cheek from when he spit on my
face.

1633
01:42:41,360 --> 01:42:44,680
That's how holy it is.
I'm just kidding.

1634
01:42:45,080 --> 01:42:45,320
I.
Know.

1635
01:42:45,400 --> 01:42:45,840
I know.
Yeah.

1636
01:42:46,120 --> 01:42:47,800
I know you are.
I know.

1637
01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:51,520
I know you are.
Trust me, at this point, I know

1638
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:52,920
you are.
And everyone else.

1639
01:42:53,120 --> 01:42:55,160
I love that you are in just a
little while.

1640
01:42:57,000 --> 01:43:02,000
So he's sitting there, he's
spinning some fire, actually

1641
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:03,800
talking about eternal marriage
of all things.

1642
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:07,800
Very interesting.
And so I learned a lot.

1643
01:43:07,800 --> 01:43:09,560
We're on the way back after
that.

1644
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:12,000
I gave the elders a ride down to
Little Rock because we were

1645
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:18,120
about half an hour away.
So to save them miles, I gave

1646
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:20,360
them a ride.
We were driving back as about

1647
01:43:20,360 --> 01:43:24,600
9:30 at night and they said, so
you're going to do it?

1648
01:43:25,920 --> 01:43:27,840
And I said, yeah, I'm going to
do it.

1649
01:43:28,080 --> 01:43:30,320
And this was in like February of
that year.

1650
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:32,960
I said, but I wanted to be
special.

1651
01:43:32,960 --> 01:43:35,800
We're doing it on April 6th.
Nice.

1652
01:43:36,600 --> 01:43:39,200
Yeah, I'm, I'm a dork of a
Mormon.

1653
01:43:39,560 --> 01:43:42,760
I love all the nerdy stuff.
And so like I'm going to do

1654
01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:47,600
April 6th and they're like,
you're just, you're just trying

1655
01:43:47,600 --> 01:43:48,960
to delay it.
You're just trying to put it

1656
01:43:48,960 --> 01:43:50,760
off.
You know, the Lord the the

1657
01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:54,880
satan's going to get it, get in
you, get at you and he's going

1658
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:59,200
to take you off the date
because, you know, whatever

1659
01:43:59,200 --> 01:44:02,520
reason, which I, you know, I
tend to agree.

1660
01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:05,400
I do think it's part of me, part
of me wanted April 6th because

1661
01:44:05,400 --> 01:44:08,240
of the connection.
Another part of me just wanted

1662
01:44:08,240 --> 01:44:10,200
to delay it as much as long as
possible.

1663
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:14,360
So I said fine, here's what I'm
going to do.

1664
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:20,280
I'm going to fast until I get an
answer and I'm going to I'm

1665
01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:23,080
going to get like as to what the
date is, when it when am I going

1666
01:44:23,080 --> 01:44:24,560
to get baptized?
I'm going to fast.

1667
01:44:27,960 --> 01:44:32,200
And we said OK and we agreed.
We went our separate ways,

1668
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:37,760
fasted for a week.
Mind you, I'm a type 1 diabetic.

1669
01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:42,680
It's not really safe.
But yeah, I've never been able

1670
01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:44,400
to hold that pull that off
since.

1671
01:44:47,560 --> 01:44:52,560
But on the that week later got
together with some with the

1672
01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:57,680
elders and two members of the
church in that area and we went

1673
01:44:57,680 --> 01:44:59,840
out to a Chinese buffet to break
my fast.

1674
01:44:59,840 --> 01:45:02,680
Probably not healthy to break a
fast that way, but that's what I

1675
01:45:02,680 --> 01:45:04,960
want to do A.
Lot of sodium my man.

1676
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:10,760
Yeah, it was bad.
So so we went to the Chinese

1677
01:45:10,760 --> 01:45:12,880
buffet.
I gotten my answer.

1678
01:45:12,880 --> 01:45:17,560
We broke my fast and I don't
remember what the day, what date

1679
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:19,840
that was.
I know I was baptized the 18th

1680
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:23,160
of February, so it was at least
a week or so before I was like,

1681
01:45:23,160 --> 01:45:25,200
let's do it.
This is the date, February 18th,

1682
01:45:26,320 --> 01:45:36,640
Saturday night that and we get
there and get to get to go get

1683
01:45:36,640 --> 01:45:38,360
baptized is an awesome
experience.

1684
01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:42,880
I come up out of the water and
you know, Mormons tend to be,

1685
01:45:45,000 --> 01:45:48,160
what's the word I'm looking for?
They're a bit more traditional,

1686
01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:49,640
right?
In a lot of ways.

1687
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:51,040
In a way they express
themselves.

1688
01:45:51,560 --> 01:45:54,400
I come from a, a place where,
you know, when the preacher's

1689
01:45:54,400 --> 01:45:56,040
preaching, you say Amen out
loud, right?

1690
01:45:56,720 --> 01:46:00,840
I raise my hands in worship and
clap sometimes.

1691
01:46:01,080 --> 01:46:03,880
So I come up expecting people
like when normally when we, when

1692
01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:08,160
we get baptized in the, in the
Campbell church, you just got

1693
01:46:08,160 --> 01:46:09,360
saved.
Like you're, you're going to

1694
01:46:09,360 --> 01:46:11,120
heaven now.
So like everybody's hooping and

1695
01:46:11,120 --> 01:46:13,440
hollering.
And so I, I come up expecting

1696
01:46:13,440 --> 01:46:15,240
that it's just dead silence,
crickets.

1697
01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:18,640
So I'm like, heck yeah,
everybody and put my thumbs up

1698
01:46:18,640 --> 01:46:21,040
like let's go.
And then people, everybody

1699
01:46:21,040 --> 01:46:26,400
started laughing.
And so that was that was a

1700
01:46:26,400 --> 01:46:33,400
really cool experience.
And the Super cool had a all

1701
01:46:33,400 --> 01:46:35,040
three.
All three is a trio of elders.

1702
01:46:35,040 --> 01:46:38,080
All three of them got to play a
part in my salvation story.

1703
01:46:38,080 --> 01:46:41,840
In some ways, I like to say it,
one of them baptized me that

1704
01:46:41,840 --> 01:46:44,800
day, the other Confirm me, and
then a few years later, the

1705
01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:47,640
other one would take me through
the Manti Temple to get mine

1706
01:46:47,640 --> 01:46:50,960
down.
And they were all, they were all

1707
01:46:50,960 --> 01:46:53,840
there for that.
But one of them got to be my

1708
01:46:53,840 --> 01:46:59,000
escort, right?
So really, like, that's that

1709
01:46:59,000 --> 01:47:01,200
part of the story.
But yeah, I came into the church

1710
01:47:01,200 --> 01:47:06,680
immediately got a calling.
My calling was to teach a Book

1711
01:47:06,680 --> 01:47:12,640
of Mormon class that like on
Wednesday nights, and only

1712
01:47:12,640 --> 01:47:14,040
people that ever showed up were
missionaries.

1713
01:47:14,040 --> 01:47:17,960
So I'm teaching the missionaries
the Book of Mormon every week,

1714
01:47:18,960 --> 01:47:24,200
Not intimidating at all.
And then my Bishop pulls me and

1715
01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:25,920
says, you know, when are you
going to serve a mission?

1716
01:47:26,480 --> 01:47:28,800
I'm like, I don't know,
probably.

1717
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:30,120
Not how old were you at that
time.

1718
01:47:30,760 --> 01:47:37,520
I was about 19, so I'm young.
So I, my, my story moves pretty

1719
01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:41,840
fast.
Yeah, I got into it young.

1720
01:47:41,840 --> 01:47:45,080
So like I said, you don't have
to in, in my religion that I

1721
01:47:45,080 --> 01:47:47,680
grew up in, you don't have to
have a certain degree anything

1722
01:47:47,680 --> 01:47:51,800
so you can preach from, you
know, I preached my first sermon

1723
01:47:51,800 --> 01:47:54,360
when I was probably 14 years
old.

1724
01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:57,920
I wasn't full time minister by
any means, but preach in front

1725
01:47:57,920 --> 01:48:00,640
of a congregation and getting
those opportunities pretty

1726
01:48:00,640 --> 01:48:05,240
young, teaching, helping teach
classes, youth classes and

1727
01:48:05,240 --> 01:48:08,560
things like that.
So, yeah, I was doing all that

1728
01:48:08,560 --> 01:48:13,360
really young, went out there to
France at 18 and just loved it.

1729
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:17,480
Did part of did part of my
college studies in high school.

1730
01:48:17,480 --> 01:48:19,840
And yeah, that's what
complicated story.

1731
01:48:19,840 --> 01:48:24,360
But anyway, so yeah, about 19
come into the church.

1732
01:48:25,160 --> 01:48:29,840
I don't know about a mission.
And then some things happen that

1733
01:48:30,760 --> 01:48:33,240
that really kind of messed with
me.

1734
01:48:33,240 --> 01:48:41,800
I lost my, my grandfather at the
age of 59 and that kind of threw

1735
01:48:41,800 --> 01:48:44,360
me down a spiral and it, it
actually pushed me into

1736
01:48:44,360 --> 01:48:46,200
inactivity for a while.
So I stepped away from the

1737
01:48:46,200 --> 01:48:48,920
church.
I just needed to be home.

1738
01:48:48,920 --> 01:48:55,840
And, and also, mind you, I think
there's a lot of stress in my

1739
01:48:55,840 --> 01:48:57,520
life.
I've lost, I'm losing.

1740
01:48:57,760 --> 01:49:00,840
I'm not going to be able to
graduate with my degree because.

1741
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:05,000
You're a Mormon.
Yeah, I'm a Mormon now, so I'm

1742
01:49:05,000 --> 01:49:08,280
on a scholarship, You know, they
not going to be able to go there

1743
01:49:08,280 --> 01:49:11,040
anymore.
Those friends that I made in in

1744
01:49:11,040 --> 01:49:13,680
college don't want to be friends
with me anymore.

1745
01:49:16,920 --> 01:49:19,040
Relationships are about to be
shattered because they haven't

1746
01:49:19,040 --> 01:49:23,920
yet because I'm not back home,
but I'm having to eventually

1747
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:25,800
have to come back home and face
my family.

1748
01:49:26,200 --> 01:49:31,040
And so just so much going on
participation in Mormonism was

1749
01:49:31,040 --> 01:49:35,040
just way too much at that point,
Like, and it's, and it feels so

1750
01:49:35,040 --> 01:49:38,240
contrary to everything that I
want to be, you know, this guy

1751
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:40,800
who suffers and this guy who
goes out there and really lives

1752
01:49:40,800 --> 01:49:44,440
authentically for the gospel.
But nevertheless, that's how it

1753
01:49:44,440 --> 01:49:47,120
happened.
And, you know, I'm not going to

1754
01:49:47,120 --> 01:49:49,240
hide from that or shirk back
from it.

1755
01:49:49,240 --> 01:49:55,600
It's, it's what happened.
So I go in an an activity for

1756
01:49:55,840 --> 01:49:59,120
quite a bit of time.
I don't even know how long,

1757
01:49:59,120 --> 01:50:10,480
maybe 6-7, eight months.
And finally, one day I, it's

1758
01:50:10,480 --> 01:50:16,440
very interesting.
I had this friend that was in

1759
01:50:16,440 --> 01:50:18,560
the church.
He was, he used to be a Catholic

1760
01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:21,400
apologist, not like a big, big
time Catholic apologist, but he

1761
01:50:21,400 --> 01:50:24,760
was in apologetics and
Catholicism, ran an apologetics

1762
01:50:24,760 --> 01:50:26,800
website.
And he came into Mormonism

1763
01:50:26,800 --> 01:50:28,920
several years ago, about a year
before I had.

1764
01:50:29,280 --> 01:50:33,840
And so I moved back to Kentucky
at this point.

1765
01:50:33,840 --> 01:50:37,240
I, that little bit of time that
I was active in the church in

1766
01:50:37,240 --> 01:50:42,120
Kentucky for like a few weeks, I
met him and kind of forgot about

1767
01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:48,600
him when I went in active.
And he worked very closely as

1768
01:50:48,600 --> 01:50:50,800
we're mission leader with the,
the sister missionaries in our

1769
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:54,400
area.
And this guy shows up that's a

1770
01:50:54,400 --> 01:50:59,400
Buddhist, and they're starting
to teach him and they don't know

1771
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:01,160
anything about Buddhism.
They don't know anything about

1772
01:51:01,160 --> 01:51:11,640
world religions.
And, and for some reason, this

1773
01:51:11,640 --> 01:51:15,240
guy, this world mission leader,
remembers my story and a little

1774
01:51:15,240 --> 01:51:18,280
bit about my background and how
I love studying religion.

1775
01:51:18,680 --> 01:51:23,880
And so he says to the sisters,
hey, maybe, maybe this guy, he's

1776
01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:26,600
not active, but maybe he can
answer some of your questions

1777
01:51:26,600 --> 01:51:33,240
about Buddhist beliefs.
And by that, I'm not setting

1778
01:51:33,240 --> 01:51:35,600
myself up as an expert in
Buddhism by any means.

1779
01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:37,640
I get it.
Right.

1780
01:51:37,920 --> 01:51:42,000
But read a little bit, just a
little bit.

1781
01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:45,480
And I like religion.
So if they figure they'd ask, so

1782
01:51:45,480 --> 01:51:48,800
they asked me, they reach out
like, hey, let's yeah, that's

1783
01:51:48,800 --> 01:51:49,960
fine.
Let's set up a meeting.

1784
01:51:50,400 --> 01:51:52,720
You know, I know I'm not really
come to church, but we can do

1785
01:51:52,720 --> 01:51:54,720
that.
So we met at the local

1786
01:51:54,720 --> 01:52:02,760
university, sat down, talked for
a few hours and about Buddhism

1787
01:52:02,760 --> 01:52:06,880
and ways that maybe you could
approach from an understanding

1788
01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:10,680
of Christianity, how you can
approach a Buddhist with the

1789
01:52:10,680 --> 01:52:16,400
gospel.
And that meeting ended at the

1790
01:52:16,440 --> 01:52:23,560
end of the meeting, one of those
three, either the the man or the

1791
01:52:23,560 --> 01:52:28,160
two sisters, I don't remember
who said this, but they said,

1792
01:52:28,200 --> 01:52:30,880
hey, we every with Thursday
night.

1793
01:52:31,400 --> 01:52:34,800
We have a little Book of Mormon
class where we just get

1794
01:52:34,800 --> 01:52:37,120
together, read the Book of
Mormon and talk about it.

1795
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:41,600
Nothing crazy, nothing pushy.
We just do that.

1796
01:52:42,280 --> 01:52:44,040
You should come.
I know you're not active in the

1797
01:52:44,040 --> 01:52:46,280
church, but you just, you
believe in the Book of Mormon.

1798
01:52:46,960 --> 01:52:49,880
I told them as much in that
meeting and said, you know, you

1799
01:52:49,880 --> 01:52:52,240
might like just just reading, no
pressure.

1800
01:52:52,280 --> 01:52:55,320
You know, nobody's, it's not
churchy and none of the bishops

1801
01:52:55,320 --> 01:52:57,040
not there.
It's just the missionaries and

1802
01:52:57,040 --> 01:53:02,320
some investigators and friends.
So I said, OK, that's fine.

1803
01:53:02,320 --> 01:53:03,880
I'll, I'll do that.
And so I start going on

1804
01:53:03,880 --> 01:53:07,880
Thursdays.
And it's interesting that

1805
01:53:07,880 --> 01:53:11,560
Buddhist guy disappeared.
He, he utterly ghosted.

1806
01:53:11,560 --> 01:53:16,120
He was only there long enough
for the missionaries to meet him

1807
01:53:16,640 --> 01:53:21,880
to set up a contact appointments
with him for this gentleman to

1808
01:53:21,880 --> 01:53:26,640
reach out to me and say, hey,
these guys need some help with

1809
01:53:26,640 --> 01:53:29,520
how to deal with Buddhist.
And then and then he disappeared

1810
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:33,320
and then they it was like I, I,
I see that it was a God moment

1811
01:53:33,320 --> 01:53:36,280
like this guy existed and
appeared in their lives to get

1812
01:53:36,280 --> 01:53:39,640
me back.
So I'm anyway, I go through that

1813
01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:42,680
period, start going back to this
class, make some good

1814
01:53:42,680 --> 01:53:46,360
connections and no one ever
asked me to go to church.

1815
01:53:47,280 --> 01:53:50,040
But at one point I finally I get
this conviction that I need to

1816
01:53:50,040 --> 01:53:54,280
come back.
So I reach out to the Bishop and

1817
01:53:54,280 --> 01:53:56,240
I said, hey, look, can we have
lunch?

1818
01:53:56,920 --> 01:54:01,480
And so we went to Wendy's next
day or a few days later, talked

1819
01:54:01,480 --> 01:54:03,040
about things.
I was like, hey, I think I want

1820
01:54:03,040 --> 01:54:06,120
to come back to church.
What does that look like for me?

1821
01:54:06,920 --> 01:54:09,320
And he said, he walks me through
the steps.

1822
01:54:09,320 --> 01:54:14,240
He's very gracious, one of the
best men that I know and and I

1823
01:54:14,240 --> 01:54:18,560
love him to death.
And I start coming back to

1824
01:54:18,560 --> 01:54:23,360
church and that very first
Sunday that I step into church

1825
01:54:23,360 --> 01:54:28,680
for the first time, the first
hymn that we sing is now let us

1826
01:54:28,680 --> 01:54:31,800
rejoice.
And there's this, there's that

1827
01:54:31,800 --> 01:54:35,600
line there in the last right.
And Jesus will say to all

1828
01:54:35,600 --> 01:54:37,520
Israel, come home.
Come home.

1829
01:54:38,720 --> 01:54:41,920
And, and I knew I was exactly
where I need to be at that

1830
01:54:41,920 --> 01:54:48,080
moment in my life.
I knew that Israel is real.

1831
01:54:48,080 --> 01:54:51,240
God is calling and he's calling
you to come home.

1832
01:54:51,360 --> 01:54:55,240
And he wants you to be here
because he has something to do

1833
01:54:55,760 --> 01:54:59,120
for you and he has something
that you need to be a part of.

1834
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:02,280
And so I just, I went all in
with Mormonism.

1835
01:55:02,280 --> 01:55:04,720
Like at that point I was like,
OK, fine.

1836
01:55:05,120 --> 01:55:08,600
I had decided to follow Jesus.
No turning back, no turning back

1837
01:55:10,160 --> 01:55:15,200
and I'm going to be all in.
So I pushed forward and I, I got

1838
01:55:15,200 --> 01:55:17,840
active with the missionaries and
I'm there like all the time.

1839
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:21,240
Like anytime I get an
opportunity to teach, I'm doing

1840
01:55:21,240 --> 01:55:25,040
it.
And eventually like it got by

1841
01:55:25,040 --> 01:55:27,840
the time COVID comes around, I'm
type 1 diabetic.

1842
01:55:27,840 --> 01:55:31,280
I'm really unsure about COVID.
I don't know what's going on.

1843
01:55:31,640 --> 01:55:35,480
So I'm, I'm worried.
So I decide I'm not going to, I

1844
01:55:35,480 --> 01:55:39,320
haven't enrolled back in school.
I'm just working at a restaurant

1845
01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:42,000
and because of COVID I was
worried.

1846
01:55:42,000 --> 01:55:45,120
I said I'm not going to work so
they let me take a leave of

1847
01:55:45,120 --> 01:55:51,280
absence and that it was the
perfect time for me to like be a

1848
01:55:51,280 --> 01:55:53,200
full time missionary without a
name tag.

1849
01:55:54,840 --> 01:55:58,400
I was with the missionaries
probably upwards of 40 hours a

1850
01:55:58,400 --> 01:56:01,760
week or more just teaching and
preaching.

1851
01:56:03,480 --> 01:56:05,800
We, we had, we eventually got to
a point where we had no time in

1852
01:56:05,800 --> 01:56:07,560
our heads.
So we bashed with preachers and

1853
01:56:07,840 --> 01:56:12,160
they brought them in and, and
I'd, I'd go at it with them and

1854
01:56:12,160 --> 01:56:16,400
we'd have a lot of fun.
There's nothing like bashing.

1855
01:56:16,720 --> 01:56:21,320
It's not good for the soul, but
it is so good for the ego and,

1856
01:56:23,080 --> 01:56:24,760
and so.
Everyone's got some fiery

1857
01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:27,200
competitive juices somewhere.
You got to get those out.

1858
01:56:27,680 --> 01:56:30,680
It's so.
True, you know, but in in a way

1859
01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:33,240
as well, it helped me and
articulate my Mormonism in my

1860
01:56:33,240 --> 01:56:35,680
positions.
Because when you're forced to

1861
01:56:35,680 --> 01:56:39,600
test your Mormonism by debating
it with others, right, you

1862
01:56:39,600 --> 01:56:43,040
refine your beliefs and you
understand why you believe.

1863
01:56:43,280 --> 01:56:45,760
You understand what arguments
don't work and what arguments do

1864
01:56:45,760 --> 01:56:47,000
work for yourself and for
others.

1865
01:56:47,400 --> 01:56:50,720
So it was really helpful in that
sense, but not good to just

1866
01:56:50,720 --> 01:56:52,880
argue with people that you
don't, that you know aren't ever

1867
01:56:52,880 --> 01:56:55,680
going to come around.
You are so true in that though

1868
01:56:58,640 --> 01:57:01,600
I'm a guy who tends to believe
that one of the best things that

1869
01:57:01,600 --> 01:57:08,080
can happen to an individual from
time to time is to not

1870
01:57:08,080 --> 01:57:12,760
literally, but figuratively be
put against the wall and say

1871
01:57:12,920 --> 01:57:15,320
tell me what you believe.
Right.

1872
01:57:16,280 --> 01:57:19,440
I think that is so healthy
because it, it's in those

1873
01:57:19,440 --> 01:57:22,440
moments that you're going to
find out really what you believe

1874
01:57:23,000 --> 01:57:26,280
and and not only are you going
to learn how to, as you put it,

1875
01:57:26,280 --> 01:57:29,720
articulate your arguments
better, you're going to learn

1876
01:57:29,720 --> 01:57:32,440
real fast about what you really
believe, right?

1877
01:57:32,760 --> 01:57:36,360
There's times that, that the
human condition is interesting

1878
01:57:36,360 --> 01:57:39,560
because there's times we can
trick our own selves into

1879
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:41,800
believing something that we're
not, right.

1880
01:57:42,440 --> 01:57:45,880
Going back in your story, just a
little ways, you would have

1881
01:57:45,880 --> 01:57:50,040
described yourself as an
atheist, but your actions told

1882
01:57:50,040 --> 01:57:51,880
me you were more agnostic,
right?

1883
01:57:51,880 --> 01:57:54,960
You hit the ground and you look
towards heaven and said, if

1884
01:57:54,960 --> 01:57:57,840
there's a God up there, do
something right, Help.

1885
01:57:58,680 --> 01:58:01,720
And and so that would be one of
those moments you get put

1886
01:58:01,720 --> 01:58:04,240
against the wall and, and I
think those times are healthy.

1887
01:58:04,240 --> 01:58:06,400
They suck, right?
I'm not going to sit here and

1888
01:58:06,400 --> 01:58:09,760
tell you they're pleasant, but
they can be really helpful.

1889
01:58:10,320 --> 01:58:12,920
Absolutely, absolutely they
were.

1890
01:58:12,920 --> 01:58:15,960
It was very helpful in my
spiritual formation in, in

1891
01:58:15,960 --> 01:58:21,680
knowing exactly what I believed
and why I believe them, right.

1892
01:58:23,120 --> 01:58:26,280
Apologetics is definitely
necessary for sustaining belief

1893
01:58:26,280 --> 01:58:28,840
and having your own personal
apologetic understanding why you

1894
01:58:28,840 --> 01:58:30,440
believe what you believe is so
key.

1895
01:58:33,160 --> 01:58:42,320
And so from there, I really, I
dug in and just dug into

1896
01:58:42,320 --> 01:58:45,200
Mormonism and, and by that time
I really got the spirit of the

1897
01:58:45,200 --> 01:58:50,960
gathering rooted in my heart
that that distant memory in the

1898
01:58:50,960 --> 01:58:54,960
far reaches of my mind of Acts
chapter 2 and the United Order

1899
01:58:55,800 --> 01:59:01,720
really came into my heart again.
And, and also there were just

1900
01:59:01,720 --> 01:59:06,480
some conflicts at home with
Mormonism and arguments that

1901
01:59:06,480 --> 01:59:08,840
were being had.
I got tired of being told by

1902
01:59:08,840 --> 01:59:11,720
certain people that I really
loved and cared about that I was

1903
01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:16,720
going to hell and would end up
kind of severing.

1904
01:59:17,560 --> 01:59:20,480
You mean that didn't just foster
better relationships?

1905
01:59:21,440 --> 01:59:25,040
No, you know, it's crazy, right?
The religion that teaches

1906
01:59:25,040 --> 01:59:26,400
eternal families.
You'd think it would be

1907
01:59:26,400 --> 01:59:31,000
something that would, it would
it would bring in.

1908
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:36,240
But unfortunately, when you when
you do something different than

1909
01:59:36,240 --> 01:59:39,120
anyone's ever done, you're
probably going to get some

1910
01:59:39,120 --> 01:59:44,400
scrutiny.
And in my case, it was certain.

1911
01:59:46,880 --> 01:59:49,120
So I got tired of that.
The spirit of Gavin really set

1912
01:59:49,120 --> 01:59:53,440
in my heart.
So I came, I had, I was like,

1913
01:59:53,440 --> 01:59:58,680
I'm going to go visit Utah.
I'm longing for the homeland, if

1914
01:59:58,680 --> 02:00:05,240
you will, longing for Israel.
And I had made a friend online

1915
02:00:05,240 --> 02:00:07,560
that lived in Utah.
He was a convert as well from

1916
02:00:07,560 --> 02:00:10,160
Arkansas.
And he had moved to Utah.

1917
02:00:10,200 --> 02:00:15,160
And he said you should come, you
can stay with me.

1918
02:00:17,760 --> 02:00:21,480
You can get to see how Utah is
and, and we'll, I'll take it.

1919
02:00:21,480 --> 02:00:22,800
All the cool sights and
everything.

1920
02:00:23,240 --> 02:00:26,120
So I booked a ticket.
It was COVID so the round trip

1921
02:00:26,120 --> 02:00:31,480
plane ticket from Nashville, TN
to Salt Lake City was $50.

1922
02:00:32,280 --> 02:00:35,560
Dude, I remember those days.
My daughter, I was living in

1923
02:00:35,560 --> 02:00:38,240
Utah during COVID.
My daughter had a baby up in

1924
02:00:38,240 --> 02:00:40,760
North Dakota.
Now, I had to fly through

1925
02:00:40,760 --> 02:00:44,560
Minneapolis to get there, but I
kid you not, I jumped on this

1926
02:00:44,560 --> 02:00:48,280
plane, bro, and I got first
class not because I had miles,

1927
02:00:48,480 --> 02:00:51,040
but because nobody else was
there, right?

1928
02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:54,640
Amen.
I'm not going to lie, there's a

1929
02:00:54,640 --> 02:00:58,000
few things about COVID that I do
miss and that that that was

1930
02:00:58,000 --> 02:01:00,440
definitely one of them.
Absolutely.

1931
02:01:00,440 --> 02:01:02,160
The truth.
Oh, it's so wonderful.

1932
02:01:02,520 --> 02:01:06,640
Like I'm just this, you know,
this this young guy works at a

1933
02:01:06,640 --> 02:01:10,480
restaurant and I can I can fly
to Utah for so cheap without

1934
02:01:10,600 --> 02:01:12,480
spend much money and I get
there.

1935
02:01:12,600 --> 02:01:16,760
I had a really good time, saw so
many cool sites.

1936
02:01:17,840 --> 02:01:20,080
Salt Lake Temple was somewhat
underwhelming.

1937
02:01:20,240 --> 02:01:22,080
I thought it would be bigger in
my mind.

1938
02:01:22,280 --> 02:01:25,520
It's it's still marvelous.
It's a majestic work of art and

1939
02:01:25,520 --> 02:01:27,880
it's beautiful.
But it just, you know, it wasn't

1940
02:01:27,880 --> 02:01:29,160
my expectation.
A little small.

1941
02:01:29,160 --> 02:01:30,800
What year would that have been,
Braxton?

1942
02:01:31,120 --> 02:01:38,400
02018 no no 20/20/19 no no.
When was COVID 2020?

1943
02:01:38,400 --> 02:01:41,000
I can't even remember when.
COVID was yeah, it it hit.

1944
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:44,920
So it it start, we started to
hear about it December of 2019

1945
02:01:44,920 --> 02:01:48,720
and then it becomes a real big
deal January into February.

1946
02:01:49,280 --> 02:01:52,520
So this was August of 2020 then?
That's when it was, yeah.

1947
02:01:52,640 --> 02:01:55,200
Oh, OK.
So the temple, the temple was

1948
02:01:55,200 --> 02:01:57,240
probably shut down at that
point, right?

1949
02:01:57,880 --> 02:01:59,400
Were they were they working on
it?

1950
02:01:59,520 --> 02:02:01,040
They were working on it at that
point.

1951
02:02:01,040 --> 02:02:02,920
So OK.
Which also affects the beauty.

1952
02:02:03,120 --> 02:02:04,520
Definitely.
Yeah.

1953
02:02:05,680 --> 02:02:09,720
And you know, when I mentioned
I'm underwhelmed by the Salt

1954
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:13,440
Lake Temple, I mean, no, I have
no bad things to say about the

1955
02:02:13,440 --> 02:02:16,240
Salt Lake Temple except that
it's been gutted now and been

1956
02:02:16,920 --> 02:02:19,760
really sad.
But that's beside the point.

1957
02:02:20,440 --> 02:02:22,600
Desecrated is the word you're.
Looking for desecrated.

1958
02:02:22,600 --> 02:02:25,040
That was the one you guess
desecrated.

1959
02:02:26,920 --> 02:02:29,400
Anyway, I, I come, I've really
enjoyed it.

1960
02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:34,840
And one day in Provo, where my
friend lives, we're walking down

1961
02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:37,760
the road and I see an apartment
complex that has a sign.

1962
02:02:38,360 --> 02:02:42,440
Applications now open for fall
2020.

1963
02:02:43,200 --> 02:02:47,200
And just call and apply.
And it said rent was $249 a

1964
02:02:47,200 --> 02:02:51,960
month.
I said, Oh my, I can swing that.

1965
02:02:55,240 --> 02:02:59,600
So I called them, I applied, I
got accepted that day.

1966
02:03:00,440 --> 02:03:07,840
And then I dialed my mom's phone
number and I said, mom, I'm not

1967
02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:09,760
coming back.
I've got an apartment.

1968
02:03:13,720 --> 02:03:16,680
How'd that go?
She didn't like that at all.

1969
02:03:17,760 --> 02:03:20,680
I I can't imagine.
Yeah, she was not a big fan.

1970
02:03:21,080 --> 02:03:24,960
She didn't want to lose her
babies, you know, like, And I'm

1971
02:03:24,960 --> 02:03:29,600
one of those babies and.
It's fine to go to France, just

1972
02:03:29,600 --> 02:03:32,200
don't go to Utah.
Exactly right.

1973
02:03:32,840 --> 02:03:34,880
Who knows what you'll become.
You'll become one of them

1974
02:03:35,800 --> 02:03:39,680
Polygamous.
Now I've got to mention, my only

1975
02:03:39,680 --> 02:03:42,240
exposure to Mormonism as a
youth, other than like those

1976
02:03:42,280 --> 02:03:44,360
little history lessons where
they talk about the cold plates

1977
02:03:44,360 --> 02:03:48,200
and stuff, was my mom's
religious obsession with ATV

1978
02:03:48,200 --> 02:03:52,560
show called Sister Wives.
Yeah.

1979
02:03:53,040 --> 02:03:54,480
I didn't know what Mormonism
was.

1980
02:03:57,000 --> 02:03:58,480
I didn't know what Mormonism
was.

1981
02:03:58,480 --> 02:04:02,600
I didn't know that that was
Mormon in if in affiliation of

1982
02:04:02,600 --> 02:04:05,240
any way, you know, I didn't know
anything.

1983
02:04:05,240 --> 02:04:07,280
About I'm going to get I'm going
to get hammered.

1984
02:04:07,320 --> 02:04:10,200
You weren't thinking about
getting like the moppy hair,

1985
02:04:10,200 --> 02:04:11,000
were you?
Like.

1986
02:04:11,520 --> 02:04:13,880
No, no, not at all.
OK, All right.

1987
02:04:13,880 --> 02:04:15,800
Good, good.
I just wanted to check.

1988
02:04:16,240 --> 02:04:19,920
Yeah, so I didn't know anything
about like what that that the

1989
02:04:19,920 --> 02:04:25,600
work was or the AUB, you know, I
just had that was the exposure.

1990
02:04:25,600 --> 02:04:28,480
So she thought, you know, you're
going to go off it to Utah and

1991
02:04:28,640 --> 02:04:33,760
and become one of them dirty
polygamous who worships Joseph

1992
02:04:33,760 --> 02:04:35,480
Smith also.
That's another thing she said.

1993
02:04:37,360 --> 02:04:43,280
And I said, no, that's not going
to happen, Mom, it's OK.

1994
02:04:44,960 --> 02:04:51,840
Yeah, we're laughing.
Said that the Mormon church

1995
02:04:51,840 --> 02:04:54,680
doesn't do that anymore.
They haven't since 1890.

1996
02:04:55,080 --> 02:05:00,880
That's also a lie, but it's it's
what I knew, OK?

1997
02:05:00,880 --> 02:05:03,720
They didn't tell me about the
second and third manifestos.

1998
02:05:04,600 --> 02:05:07,720
Funny how they leave that out.
They do, don't they?

1999
02:05:10,360 --> 02:05:13,240
So I I assured her 1890 was the
end.

2000
02:05:13,840 --> 02:05:16,240
Wilfred Woodruff put a stop to
that.

2001
02:05:16,360 --> 02:05:17,560
So she ain't got to worry about
it.

2002
02:05:17,920 --> 02:05:19,920
Allegedly, you know.
Allegedly, yeah.

2003
02:05:21,200 --> 02:05:23,120
In my heart, I knew that
polygamy was a true principal.

2004
02:05:23,120 --> 02:05:24,680
And I'm like, you know, it's
like it's not something you're

2005
02:05:24,680 --> 02:05:25,960
lived.
We Live Today.

2006
02:05:25,960 --> 02:05:36,000
It's attended whatever.
So I I moved out here and

2007
02:05:36,000 --> 02:05:41,720
settled in and found myself
disappointed in Zion because

2008
02:05:41,720 --> 02:05:48,480
Zion wasn't here.
I get plugged into the local YSA

2009
02:05:49,040 --> 02:05:51,360
which is completely foreign to
my experience in Mormonism thus

2010
02:05:51,360 --> 02:05:52,880
far.
I never lived in a place where

2011
02:05:52,880 --> 02:05:57,440
YSA's were a thing.
And then I find groups of 18 and

2012
02:05:57,440 --> 02:06:01,240
19 year olds who couldn't give
less of a RIP about things that

2013
02:06:01,240 --> 02:06:03,320
matter.
And I want to, I want to correct

2014
02:06:03,320 --> 02:06:04,480
myself on that.
Excuse me.

2015
02:06:05,040 --> 02:06:06,800
These people care and they're
good people.

2016
02:06:07,040 --> 02:06:09,520
But when you're young, you know,
you're pretty mature.

2017
02:06:09,520 --> 02:06:12,200
You have priorities that are
that are different, you know,

2018
02:06:12,640 --> 02:06:15,520
and those priorities weren't
being all in on the gospel

2019
02:06:15,520 --> 02:06:18,000
building design, you know, and
I'm like, that's all I care

2020
02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:18,920
about.
That's all I want.

2021
02:06:19,240 --> 02:06:21,920
And then we care about the
trivial things about like the

2022
02:06:21,920 --> 02:06:25,600
things we wear and the dates we
go on and, you know, whether I

2023
02:06:25,600 --> 02:06:29,080
can go to SWIG tomorrow,
tomorrow and get a, you know,

2024
02:06:30,640 --> 02:06:33,040
100.
And 40 that dirty Doctor Pepper.

2025
02:06:33,520 --> 02:06:36,800
That's right, largest size you
can get, you know.

2026
02:06:39,680 --> 02:06:43,480
Coffee's unhealthy, but go ahead
and tip back that 52 ounce dirty

2027
02:06:43,560 --> 02:06:45,840
OH.
Yeah, I had to laugh a few weeks

2028
02:06:45,840 --> 02:06:49,880
ago when I saw an article on Sub
Stack about a woman who was a

2029
02:06:49,880 --> 02:06:53,000
member of the church that was
talking about how it's OK for

2030
02:06:53,000 --> 02:06:55,840
her to drink the Red Bull, but
not for her to drink coffee.

2031
02:06:56,240 --> 02:07:00,720
And I thought, wow, that is the
height of insanity.

2032
02:07:00,720 --> 02:07:07,360
But OK.
Anyway, so I, I, I'm very

2033
02:07:07,360 --> 02:07:10,920
disappointed and, and really
struggled in the YSA system out

2034
02:07:10,920 --> 02:07:15,760
here.
I was a little, you know, a

2035
02:07:15,760 --> 02:07:18,920
little older, a little more
experienced in the in, in life.

2036
02:07:19,520 --> 02:07:21,280
And not that I was perfect by
any means.

2037
02:07:21,280 --> 02:07:24,680
I'm still an amateur goofball
and in a lot of ways, but I

2038
02:07:24,680 --> 02:07:27,760
really cared.
And this idea of building Zion

2039
02:07:28,200 --> 02:07:31,000
was what mattered to me.
Like I knew it was physical

2040
02:07:31,000 --> 02:07:33,840
because I read the scriptures
like it's a physical place.

2041
02:07:33,840 --> 02:07:37,560
It's not, it's not a mindset.
It is, it's part of it.

2042
02:07:37,560 --> 02:07:39,680
They were Zion because they have
one heart and one mind.

2043
02:07:39,680 --> 02:07:42,640
Yes, but what were they have one
heart and one mind in doing of

2044
02:07:42,640 --> 02:07:47,400
building a physical Kingdom for
the Lord to dwell Well, right

2045
02:07:49,720 --> 02:07:55,600
and and not that it's exhaustive
of their oneness, but anyway,

2046
02:07:55,680 --> 02:07:57,760
that's a big thrust of their
oneness.

2047
02:07:58,000 --> 02:08:00,880
But anyway, I I'm I'm very
disappointed and and and

2048
02:08:00,880 --> 02:08:06,480
struggle and there's a really
long while that I struggled

2049
02:08:06,880 --> 02:08:08,720
through this thing out here in
Utah.

2050
02:08:11,240 --> 02:08:18,560
It was really tough to fit in.
My, my solace was in the temple.

2051
02:08:20,640 --> 02:08:25,800
My solace was in going there and
being reminded of those

2052
02:08:25,800 --> 02:08:31,200
covenants, that covenant to, to
obey all of Father's commands

2053
02:08:31,200 --> 02:08:34,560
to, to keep the law of
consecration.

2054
02:08:38,440 --> 02:08:43,160
You know, that was my bomb in
those moments and that time

2055
02:08:43,160 --> 02:08:50,520
period eventually and and I, and
I also have to preface.

2056
02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:54,560
So there were several what I
call Protestant baggage.

2057
02:08:54,560 --> 02:08:58,160
Not that candlelight's
necessarily Protestant, but it's

2058
02:08:59,000 --> 02:09:00,080
close enough to lump them
together.

2059
02:09:00,360 --> 02:09:07,400
Protestant baggage are
essentially those beliefs, in my

2060
02:09:07,400 --> 02:09:14,760
view, that sometimes people will
carry in from other places that

2061
02:09:14,760 --> 02:09:17,440
they got taught and then they,
they use.

2062
02:09:17,440 --> 02:09:20,080
And there's some examples from
church history that I have that

2063
02:09:20,080 --> 02:09:22,680
might be a little controversial,
so we'll avoid those right now.

2064
02:09:22,920 --> 02:09:28,320
But for me at least, there were
certain ideas I had about the

2065
02:09:28,320 --> 02:09:31,040
nature of God that I brought in
with me to Mormonism and hadn't

2066
02:09:31,040 --> 02:09:35,160
let go of yet.
One of them was the idea of the

2067
02:09:35,160 --> 02:09:37,760
eternality of God.
I, I, I believe that he'd always

2068
02:09:37,760 --> 02:09:46,000
been God.
I didn't accept this idea of of

2069
02:09:46,240 --> 02:09:49,840
infinite regress like King fall
of discourse language.

2070
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:54,600
I'm more adopted a Blake Osler
monarchical monotheism model.

2071
02:09:54,920 --> 02:09:57,720
I said that God was always God,
but at a certain point in time

2072
02:09:57,720 --> 02:10:00,800
he stepped down from being God
and became a man.

2073
02:10:00,880 --> 02:10:05,080
And that's how he condescends in
the flesh, which is not a

2074
02:10:05,080 --> 02:10:06,800
Protestant idea by any means.
I don't want to.

2075
02:10:06,800 --> 02:10:08,200
I don't want that to be the
idea.

2076
02:10:08,440 --> 02:10:11,480
But it was because I couldn't
let go of this idea that God was

2077
02:10:11,480 --> 02:10:16,720
eternal that I I was able to
accept Blake Osler's monarchical

2078
02:10:16,720 --> 02:10:22,240
monotheism view, kingship
monotheism instead of the

2079
02:10:22,240 --> 02:10:26,520
correct view, which is which is
Joseph Smith's King Follett this

2080
02:10:26,520 --> 02:10:28,760
course and the sermon at the
Grove right that God has a

2081
02:10:28,760 --> 02:10:30,600
father before him and going
back.

2082
02:10:31,200 --> 02:10:34,240
Now, Blake Osler, he he's, he's
LDS, right?

2083
02:10:34,800 --> 02:10:39,280
Right, he's an LDS philosopher.
And so when, when he says God is

2084
02:10:39,280 --> 02:10:44,600
stepping down to not be God, to
condescend into flesh, is he

2085
02:10:44,600 --> 02:10:47,400
kind of like this is
fascinating.

2086
02:10:47,400 --> 02:10:49,960
I, I didn't realize he had this,
this view here.

2087
02:10:50,440 --> 02:10:55,280
So as he does this is, is he
like harkening back to a more

2088
02:10:55,280 --> 02:10:58,640
Trinitarian sort of a thing?
Because that seems like it's

2089
02:10:58,640 --> 02:11:01,080
almost got a little bit of
Trinitarian wrapped up in it,

2090
02:11:01,080 --> 02:11:02,560
right?
That's what we hear a lot out of

2091
02:11:02,560 --> 02:11:05,120
out of those who espouse the
Trinity.

2092
02:11:05,480 --> 02:11:09,680
Is this idea of God
condescending into flesh?

2093
02:11:10,240 --> 02:11:14,000
Right.
Which is what Jesus does, right?

2094
02:11:16,480 --> 02:11:20,600
I know Blake Osler is not a
Trinitarian in the classical

2095
02:11:20,600 --> 02:11:24,280
sense.
He is a social Trinitarian like

2096
02:11:24,280 --> 02:11:26,280
we are.
So he holds that same view.

2097
02:11:26,480 --> 02:11:28,360
It does.
I, I can see where you're,

2098
02:11:28,360 --> 02:11:31,400
you're hearing that language,
but yeah, it's very interesting,

2099
02:11:31,400 --> 02:11:35,000
Right.
So God was always God as matter

2100
02:11:35,000 --> 02:11:37,520
always exist and he always
existed as God.

2101
02:11:38,360 --> 02:11:41,080
And he doesn't believe that God
has a father, as far as I

2102
02:11:41,080 --> 02:11:43,040
understand.
And I may be correct on that,

2103
02:11:43,040 --> 02:11:48,160
but it as far as I have
understood his view, God himself

2104
02:11:48,160 --> 02:11:51,560
does not have a father, but
rather.

2105
02:11:52,280 --> 02:11:55,640
He's saying Jesus doesn't.
Jesus has a father, which is

2106
02:11:55,640 --> 02:12:02,880
God, the Father of Jehovah.
However, the Father himself only

2107
02:12:02,880 --> 02:12:05,400
has a father in the sense that
he condescended into human

2108
02:12:05,400 --> 02:12:09,560
flesh, was born, and therefore
he has a father and a mother,

2109
02:12:09,840 --> 02:12:11,840
right?
He has a physical earthly father

2110
02:12:11,840 --> 02:12:14,680
and mother, but there's not a
father above him who's a God,

2111
02:12:14,680 --> 02:12:19,320
who you know, who commands
Michael and Jehovah to go down

2112
02:12:19,320 --> 02:12:23,680
and create as we.
OK, as we learn, rather, he has

2113
02:12:23,680 --> 02:12:25,640
an earthly father.
He condescends in the same way

2114
02:12:25,640 --> 02:12:30,280
that Jesus does, except
difference being that he

2115
02:12:30,280 --> 02:12:35,600
actually has a physical father.
As far as I've understood what I

2116
02:12:35,720 --> 02:12:39,960
he's read.
Again, I don't want to speak too

2117
02:12:39,960 --> 02:12:42,200
much if I'm incorrect.
You know if you if you.

2118
02:12:42,680 --> 02:12:43,480
Got you.
No, no, no.

2119
02:12:43,480 --> 02:12:45,720
You're good.
But as far as I understand his

2120
02:12:45,720 --> 02:12:48,240
view, that's what it is.
So yes, I adopted that view and

2121
02:12:48,240 --> 02:12:50,240
that was at least my
articulation of what he was

2122
02:12:50,240 --> 02:12:53,360
saying in my understanding of
it.

2123
02:12:55,320 --> 02:12:57,960
So somewhere along the road, I
start to question that I

2124
02:12:57,960 --> 02:13:02,040
thought, OK, if the prophets
really do speak for the Lord

2125
02:13:02,600 --> 02:13:09,520
and, and they're saying what
they're saying and they are the

2126
02:13:09,520 --> 02:13:13,400
mouthpieces, then I can probably
trust what they have to say.

2127
02:13:13,800 --> 02:13:19,640
And it's it's not good for me to
discount and set aside their

2128
02:13:19,640 --> 02:13:23,040
counsel, their revelations,
their beliefs.

2129
02:13:23,040 --> 02:13:24,960
I really need to take them into
consideration.

2130
02:13:25,360 --> 02:13:28,920
And one of those that starts.
Yeah, yeah, that's a really bad

2131
02:13:29,080 --> 02:13:30,920
thing place to be at in modern
Mormonism.

2132
02:13:32,360 --> 02:13:38,720
It's yeah.
So I'm I'm asking myself, starts

2133
02:13:38,720 --> 02:13:42,120
with the king fall at discourse.
What is Joseph Smith saying?

2134
02:13:44,200 --> 02:13:49,360
And it's really, really, really
clear to me.

2135
02:13:49,760 --> 02:13:53,920
I think you really have to
lawyer the text in order for

2136
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:57,160
King Follett Discourse not to be
what we're saying.

2137
02:13:57,160 --> 02:14:01,680
It is about God having a father.
Pretty clear, right?

2138
02:14:01,680 --> 02:14:05,680
I mean, it's, look, the, the
one, one thing that's really

2139
02:14:05,680 --> 02:14:10,560
good about Joseph being not
trained in Harvard or, or Yale

2140
02:14:10,560 --> 02:14:16,680
or, or any of those other places
is that he's going to tell you

2141
02:14:16,680 --> 02:14:20,040
things and he's not going to
hide A lot, right?

2142
02:14:20,040 --> 02:14:24,120
Because he doesn't have the, the
vocabulary to do it.

2143
02:14:24,120 --> 02:14:27,520
He's just going to let you know
what it is he's getting.

2144
02:14:27,520 --> 02:14:30,440
And it's going to be really hard
to misconstrue him at times.

2145
02:14:30,920 --> 02:14:33,800
Precisely right.
And the reality is, you know,

2146
02:14:33,800 --> 02:14:36,560
there are there, there are a
few.

2147
02:14:36,560 --> 02:14:39,800
The critics like to point the
critics of our of the infinite

2148
02:14:39,800 --> 02:14:43,840
regress view on the more Blake
Osler side of things would like

2149
02:14:43,840 --> 02:14:47,760
to point to the fact that there
are multiple transcripts of the

2150
02:14:48,600 --> 02:14:52,200
of the kingfall at discourse
that has some conflicts.

2151
02:14:52,520 --> 02:14:56,000
I don't think there is
conflicting as they like to make

2152
02:14:56,000 --> 02:14:59,600
them out to be.
I think they're pretty clear.

2153
02:14:59,800 --> 02:15:05,520
Further, I think the greatest
attestation that of what Joseph

2154
02:15:05,520 --> 02:15:08,160
Smith was teaching, the fact
that the view of infinite

2155
02:15:08,160 --> 02:15:12,240
regress was held by all the
people within the sound of his

2156
02:15:12,240 --> 02:15:15,840
voice that it was, it was held
by throughout the church for

2157
02:15:15,840 --> 02:15:20,480
over 100 years that the prophets
who knew Joseph, Brigham Young,

2158
02:15:20,480 --> 02:15:23,480
right, John Taylor, Wilford,
Woodruff, they all accepted this

2159
02:15:23,480 --> 02:15:27,160
infinite regress view.
It seems pretty obvious to me

2160
02:15:27,160 --> 02:15:28,600
that that's what he was
teaching.

2161
02:15:29,320 --> 02:15:32,600
Explain infinite regress to
people real quick so so they

2162
02:15:32,600 --> 02:15:34,640
have a good idea of what you're
talking about here.

2163
02:15:35,160 --> 02:15:41,920
So the infinite regression of
the gods is, is the idea spleen

2164
02:15:41,920 --> 02:15:46,920
and simply of the eternality of
gods.

2165
02:15:46,920 --> 02:15:52,960
That is the God that we serve
has a father above him and that

2166
02:15:53,000 --> 02:15:57,000
father there's a grandfather.
And you know, we get a little

2167
02:15:57,000 --> 02:15:59,960
bit more of that with the
original endowment ceremonies.

2168
02:15:59,960 --> 02:16:03,640
That kind of opens up this view
that we have a character who

2169
02:16:04,080 --> 02:16:09,080
becomes by his own, by by going
through the, by receiving the

2170
02:16:09,080 --> 02:16:11,800
atonement into his life and
applying it on another planet,

2171
02:16:12,120 --> 02:16:15,160
was able to live and act in such
a righteous way that he

2172
02:16:15,160 --> 02:16:18,560
eventually ascends to godhood.
And then his father brings him

2173
02:16:18,560 --> 02:16:20,320
down to create a world of his
own.

2174
02:16:20,760 --> 02:16:24,360
And, and that's, but the, the
idea of the infinite regress is

2175
02:16:24,360 --> 02:16:28,520
that there's the father above.
And so people, there's an

2176
02:16:28,520 --> 02:16:31,560
infinite chain of beings who are
becoming God's, God's an embryo,

2177
02:16:33,080 --> 02:16:38,000
which is why Lorenzo Snow goes
on to say, you know, about as

2178
02:16:38,000 --> 02:16:43,240
man once, as as God now is man
once, right as man now is, God

2179
02:16:43,240 --> 02:16:46,480
once was, as God is now man may
become.

2180
02:16:48,400 --> 02:16:49,920
And that's where all that comes
from.

2181
02:16:51,400 --> 02:16:53,360
So I start to ask these
questions and I'm arriving at

2182
02:16:53,360 --> 02:16:56,120
these conclusions.
But at the same time, I'm seeing

2183
02:16:56,120 --> 02:17:00,040
a de emphasis of that.
I'm seeing an utter denial of

2184
02:17:00,040 --> 02:17:02,040
this reading of the text in the
church.

2185
02:17:02,639 --> 02:17:05,920
I'm seeing gaslighting from the
intellectuals in the church

2186
02:17:06,440 --> 02:17:09,600
towards this view as if it's
just such a novel idea.

2187
02:17:10,440 --> 02:17:12,719
In fact, there's not much about
the infinite regressive gods

2188
02:17:12,719 --> 02:17:16,920
that you can find on the
Internet in within Mormonism.

2189
02:17:17,200 --> 02:17:20,000
There's not much is a lot of
anti Mormon material.

2190
02:17:20,040 --> 02:17:23,760
You can read about it, but not
much within Mormon friendly

2191
02:17:24,360 --> 02:17:25,559
circles.
There.

2192
02:17:25,559 --> 02:17:28,959
There is some, I'm not going to
say that there's none, but it's,

2193
02:17:28,959 --> 02:17:31,920
it was the reason I knew about
is the folk belief of all the

2194
02:17:31,920 --> 02:17:33,879
older people talking about it
and things like this.

2195
02:17:33,920 --> 02:17:37,920
And, and it is interesting that
even when I came into the church

2196
02:17:37,920 --> 02:17:41,760
in 2018, from then to now, how
different the church is that

2197
02:17:41,760 --> 02:17:45,600
those folk beliefs just don't
even exist in vocal circles, at

2198
02:17:45,600 --> 02:17:50,240
least that people talk about.
So I'm noticing an effort to

2199
02:17:50,320 --> 02:17:52,920
when I say gaslight, they would
say just reading the text

2200
02:17:52,920 --> 02:17:56,799
differently.
I think they're gaslighting the

2201
02:17:57,240 --> 02:17:58,879
the profits of what they're
saying.

2202
02:17:59,120 --> 02:18:01,360
And I'm like, what's going on?
If this is what he taught, why

2203
02:18:01,360 --> 02:18:04,040
aren't we teaching this?
And if anything, even if we're

2204
02:18:04,040 --> 02:18:06,920
saying it's an option you can
accept in Mormonism, why are we

2205
02:18:06,920 --> 02:18:09,799
leaving it as an option?
This is the very man that gazed

2206
02:18:09,799 --> 02:18:13,160
into heavens, who saw the father
and the Son, who knew them

2207
02:18:13,160 --> 02:18:17,160
intimately, right?
Who talked with Paul, who talked

2208
02:18:17,160 --> 02:18:20,440
with all these figures, right?
Joseph Smith did all these

2209
02:18:20,440 --> 02:18:25,000
things and we're somehow going
to say either he, it was just

2210
02:18:25,000 --> 02:18:29,040
his opinion about the nature of
God and, and what God was and

2211
02:18:29,040 --> 02:18:31,920
oh, we're just misreading the
text.

2212
02:18:32,320 --> 02:18:34,320
Well, no, the text is pretty
clear about what it says.

2213
02:18:35,240 --> 02:18:37,320
And this is these are his
experiences.

2214
02:18:37,600 --> 02:18:40,480
I'm going to trust him,
especially because I have a

2215
02:18:40,480 --> 02:18:44,320
testimony of who God is working
through the restoration.

2216
02:18:44,520 --> 02:18:47,639
So I can trust those voices and
I can go to God in prayer and

2217
02:18:47,639 --> 02:18:50,840
ask him the same thing.
So I'm, I'm really struggling

2218
02:18:51,000 --> 02:18:54,840
with this discrepancy between
King Follett discourse theology

2219
02:18:55,200 --> 02:18:57,600
and modern.
We want to be more like

2220
02:18:57,600 --> 02:19:01,920
Protestants and not really take
a stand about God.

2221
02:19:01,920 --> 02:19:05,760
We want to just have a more
traditional view, not as

2222
02:19:05,760 --> 02:19:08,600
traditional as possible, not
traditional, but as traditional

2223
02:19:08,600 --> 02:19:12,200
as we can get within mainstream
orthodoxy, orthodoxy

2224
02:19:12,200 --> 02:19:16,799
Christianity that is.
And the other thing is that

2225
02:19:16,799 --> 02:19:19,760
United Order starts getting back
in my heart with that that

2226
02:19:19,760 --> 02:19:25,160
gathering spirit.
And I have a friend that I

2227
02:19:25,160 --> 02:19:30,160
absolutely love and and adore
and he and he and I talk Mormon

2228
02:19:30,160 --> 02:19:32,160
theology.
He's a convert, want to be a

2229
02:19:32,160 --> 02:19:38,080
minister in the Baptist Church.
I'll keep his name private, but

2230
02:19:39,959 --> 02:19:44,240
he, I call him up and I and I
just been talking to him about

2231
02:19:44,240 --> 02:19:49,480
some of the struggles I was
having and, and we're talking

2232
02:19:49,480 --> 02:19:52,920
about different issues.
And I was like, I think I

2233
02:19:52,920 --> 02:19:59,160
believe in infinite regress and
like what's going on with the

2234
02:19:59,160 --> 02:20:01,640
United Order?
Like this is so clearly of

2235
02:20:01,640 --> 02:20:03,120
what's meant to be a part of our
faith.

2236
02:20:03,800 --> 02:20:07,800
Why is it that I'm hearing that
people can get excommunicated

2237
02:20:07,800 --> 02:20:10,040
for wanting to voluntarily of
their own free will and choice,

2238
02:20:10,040 --> 02:20:12,680
live the United Order?
I don't know how much that's

2239
02:20:12,680 --> 02:20:13,840
happening.
I'm not going to say that's like

2240
02:20:13,840 --> 02:20:15,960
a big thing that's happening
because I don't think it is big.

2241
02:20:15,960 --> 02:20:19,440
But it's happened in the past
and and it happens every now and

2242
02:20:19,440 --> 02:20:21,240
again sparsely.
Like why?

2243
02:20:21,240 --> 02:20:23,240
What is this situation that
we're going through?

2244
02:20:24,880 --> 02:20:26,920
And I just, I'm like, I just
desperately want to live the

2245
02:20:26,920 --> 02:20:34,240
United Order.
And that day that friend told me

2246
02:20:34,240 --> 02:20:36,920
something that would change
everything again.

2247
02:20:37,160 --> 02:20:45,240
Change everything again.
And he says, I'm going to tell

2248
02:20:45,240 --> 02:20:47,720
you something, Braxton, that
I've never told a soul on this

2249
02:20:47,720 --> 02:20:52,240
planet.
He's in the church, right?

2250
02:20:52,320 --> 02:21:01,040
He says I'm a fundamentalist and
I know a place where these

2251
02:21:01,040 --> 02:21:10,400
things are lived and believed.
Now, he's not yet gathered out

2252
02:21:11,720 --> 02:21:18,200
West in Utah, so he's not an
official member of any apostate

2253
02:21:18,200 --> 02:21:21,760
group or sect.
But he is a believer in

2254
02:21:21,760 --> 02:21:24,160
fundamentalism and he has
relationships and has a place

2255
02:21:24,160 --> 02:21:30,440
that he intends to to join in
the future when that time comes.

2256
02:21:30,920 --> 02:21:38,040
And, And I was just like,
flabbergasted.

2257
02:21:38,040 --> 02:21:40,400
I'm like, what?
But.

2258
02:21:42,040 --> 02:21:44,720
It can can.
I stopped you right there for

2259
02:21:44,720 --> 02:21:49,720
just a second because Braxton,
I'm really noticing A trend now.

2260
02:21:53,040 --> 02:21:59,200
It's the converts to the LDS
church that are moving on from

2261
02:21:59,200 --> 02:22:02,480
the LDS church to a more pure
form of Mormonism.

2262
02:22:02,880 --> 02:22:07,080
Yeah.
I, I'm just going off the top of

2263
02:22:07,080 --> 02:22:13,440
my head, there's I'm a convert.
I'm thinking about.

2264
02:22:14,640 --> 02:22:18,480
I know one who's been on the
podcast before, Mason.

2265
02:22:19,200 --> 02:22:25,240
I'm thinking about another
gentleman that I know that wants

2266
02:22:25,240 --> 02:22:27,560
to remain nameless.
There's about four or five right

2267
02:22:27,560 --> 02:22:30,520
now that I can think of off the
top of my head.

2268
02:22:31,400 --> 02:22:34,040
And people have started to
notice and they've started to

2269
02:22:34,040 --> 02:22:37,400
ask me, why is this?
And I said because the converts,

2270
02:22:37,400 --> 02:22:41,920
we're coming in and we've been
promised a bill of goods, and

2271
02:22:41,920 --> 02:22:44,800
when we get in, the church can't
deliver.

2272
02:22:45,880 --> 02:22:48,440
Right.
For whatever reason, well, we

2273
02:22:48,440 --> 02:22:51,800
didn't sign up and, and I don't
mean this is a knock on

2274
02:22:51,800 --> 02:22:56,240
Protestantism or anything else,
but you don't join Mormonism

2275
02:22:56,240 --> 02:22:58,440
because you're sold on
Protestantism, right?

2276
02:22:58,440 --> 02:23:02,800
You're seeing some issues there.
And the, the Restoration through

2277
02:23:02,800 --> 02:23:05,720
Joseph Smith promises something
different and that's what you

2278
02:23:05,720 --> 02:23:08,360
want.
And so when the church fails to

2279
02:23:08,360 --> 02:23:12,960
deliver on those promises, we've
got no other options but to say,

2280
02:23:12,960 --> 02:23:16,560
well, it's either gone or it's
somewhere else other than in the

2281
02:23:16,560 --> 02:23:19,000
church, and we have to go look
for that.

2282
02:23:19,600 --> 02:23:23,360
Yeah, I came here because I
wanted the New Testament church

2283
02:23:23,680 --> 02:23:27,240
and that came with the prophets
and the apostles of the idea

2284
02:23:27,240 --> 02:23:30,160
that God still speaks, that he's
not done with us yet.

2285
02:23:30,600 --> 02:23:33,920
That the very same ancients who
had theirs experiences of God,

2286
02:23:34,200 --> 02:23:35,920
that I'm just as much entitled
to it.

2287
02:23:36,480 --> 02:23:40,360
That God wants to talk to me as
he wants as much as he wanted to

2288
02:23:40,360 --> 02:23:43,320
talk to them back then.
That he really, really wants a

2289
02:23:43,320 --> 02:23:46,040
real relationship with me, not
just this relationship that I

2290
02:23:46,040 --> 02:23:47,600
talk about.
Oh, I have a relationship with

2291
02:23:47,600 --> 02:23:49,400
Jesus.
No, like I want a relationship

2292
02:23:49,400 --> 02:23:52,080
where he talks to me and he
walks with me and he lays his

2293
02:23:52,080 --> 02:23:55,240
hands on my head and gives me
the second comforter and and

2294
02:23:55,240 --> 02:23:57,000
makes my calling an election
made sure right?

2295
02:23:58,720 --> 02:24:00,240
That's the kind of relationship
I want.

2296
02:24:00,240 --> 02:24:03,280
I want I want God speaking.
I want the oracles of heaven.

2297
02:24:03,680 --> 02:24:11,880
I want God among us and
Mormonism is it the Church of

2298
02:24:11,880 --> 02:24:13,840
Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints, Edward and Salt Lake

2299
02:24:13,840 --> 02:24:17,760
City is a very amazing step to
get us that point.

2300
02:24:17,760 --> 02:24:21,320
For those of us that aren't
ready to go full in, you know,

2301
02:24:22,040 --> 02:24:24,480
don't have the knowledge or
understanding to be able to go

2302
02:24:24,480 --> 02:24:27,760
full in from the beginning.
That's what that it's that

2303
02:24:27,760 --> 02:24:29,440
preparatory gospel in a way,
right?

2304
02:24:30,320 --> 02:24:31,920
It's the gateway drug to
Mormonism.

2305
02:24:32,120 --> 02:24:33,280
It.
It really is.

2306
02:24:33,280 --> 02:24:38,760
Yeah, exactly.
You know, right, It's the it's

2307
02:24:38,760 --> 02:24:41,160
the gate by which you must enter
baptism.

2308
02:24:41,160 --> 02:24:43,080
You know, you've got to have
that gate accomplished.

2309
02:24:43,080 --> 02:24:44,600
You've got to enter in, you got
to open it.

2310
02:24:45,080 --> 02:24:49,360
Well, go somewhere that can open
it for you and let you build a

2311
02:24:49,360 --> 02:24:51,840
long and grow in wisdom and
stature and favor until you're

2312
02:24:51,840 --> 02:24:59,200
ready to get there.
And so, yeah, I mean, that's

2313
02:24:59,280 --> 02:25:01,080
that, that is a trend that I'm
noticing as well.

2314
02:25:01,080 --> 02:25:03,520
And it's it's good.
I love it because I think

2315
02:25:03,520 --> 02:25:06,680
converts add something that we
desperately need and that's a

2316
02:25:06,680 --> 02:25:12,040
fire that isn't always seen when
when people are raised

2317
02:25:12,160 --> 02:25:14,080
somewhere.
And and that's not a knock it

2318
02:25:14,280 --> 02:25:15,800
being raised.
I would have given anything.

2319
02:25:15,800 --> 02:25:18,280
I would have given my left arm
to be raised in in the in the

2320
02:25:18,280 --> 02:25:21,040
Mormon church.
To have that foundation of the

2321
02:25:21,040 --> 02:25:22,880
Book of Mormon would have been
so awesome.

2322
02:25:24,200 --> 02:25:26,120
I wish I could have been reading
it from the time I was a kid,

2323
02:25:26,440 --> 02:25:28,720
but then again, my story might
have ended up very differently.

2324
02:25:30,360 --> 02:25:35,440
So I praise God that I wasn't.
But so, so your buddy tells you,

2325
02:25:35,440 --> 02:25:38,560
yeah, I'm I'm a closeted
fundamentalist as well.

2326
02:25:38,560 --> 02:25:41,560
Yeah, yeah.
And so he proceeds to lay out

2327
02:25:41,560 --> 02:25:50,600
this story of how priesthood got
outside of the church, and we

2328
02:25:50,600 --> 02:25:54,080
learn about the Woolies.
I learned about the Woolies and

2329
02:25:54,320 --> 02:25:56,960
all the marvelous events that
happened in 1886.

2330
02:25:57,920 --> 02:26:00,080
It's interesting, right?
Plural marriage was not my

2331
02:26:00,520 --> 02:26:02,440
purpose for becoming a
fundamentalist.

2332
02:26:02,800 --> 02:26:06,920
However, it was what gave me
purpose in fundamentalism in the

2333
02:26:06,920 --> 02:26:09,880
sense that I had to have, I
believed in priesthood

2334
02:26:09,880 --> 02:26:12,880
authority, I had to have
priesthood authority in order to

2335
02:26:12,880 --> 02:26:16,080
go somewhere, right?
And I had to believe that that

2336
02:26:16,080 --> 02:26:21,440
somehow existed.
And 1886 is the answer.

2337
02:26:22,320 --> 02:26:25,520
You know, it is the means.
So I I didn't come into

2338
02:26:25,520 --> 02:26:28,000
fundamentalism because I wanted
to have as many wives as I want

2339
02:26:28,000 --> 02:26:30,640
as I could have, you know, and I
came into it because the United

2340
02:26:30,640 --> 02:26:32,160
order.
I came into it because of the

2341
02:26:32,160 --> 02:26:35,960
things that are are awful
situation in today in modern

2342
02:26:35,960 --> 02:26:39,120
Mormonism.
And I came into it because of

2343
02:26:39,120 --> 02:26:42,760
King fallout discourse, my
beliefs about that discourse and

2344
02:26:42,760 --> 02:26:46,320
what it means.
But so I'm learning he's

2345
02:26:46,320 --> 02:26:49,440
teaching me all these things.
He's teaching me about the

2346
02:26:49,440 --> 02:26:50,720
authority about different
doctrines.

2347
02:26:51,080 --> 02:26:58,960
I get introduced in a believing
context to the the Adam God

2348
02:26:58,960 --> 02:27:01,000
doctrine.
I knew what it was.

2349
02:27:01,000 --> 02:27:04,120
I'd heard about it, right?
I'd studied some about it, never

2350
02:27:04,120 --> 02:27:06,480
believed it.
Always anything I'd read about

2351
02:27:06,480 --> 02:27:09,840
it was only negative, like it's
not true or it's just Brigham

2352
02:27:09,840 --> 02:27:12,600
Young's opinion.
But then I'm introduced from the

2353
02:27:12,600 --> 02:27:15,840
faithful context.
I'm able to learn from my

2354
02:27:15,840 --> 02:27:18,160
friend.
He sends me several videos from

2355
02:27:18,160 --> 02:27:22,640
Jacob Vidrine and his channel on
the Church of the first former.

2356
02:27:22,640 --> 02:27:26,280
They do those different chats
talking about the history of the

2357
02:27:26,280 --> 02:27:33,560
Adam God doctrine and I learned
a lot and I gained a testimony

2358
02:27:33,560 --> 02:27:35,480
of the Adam God doctrine and
that doctrine.

2359
02:27:35,920 --> 02:27:38,920
I will tell you this.
It brought God near to me in a

2360
02:27:38,920 --> 02:27:43,280
way that I cannot even describe.
I I thought I knew God and then

2361
02:27:43,280 --> 02:27:48,680
I met God because I had a name.
You know, he had a person that

2362
02:27:48,680 --> 02:27:51,160
he truly was on this earth and
I, he was like me.

2363
02:27:51,360 --> 02:27:57,600
He came down and condescended
once again in the flesh and and

2364
02:27:57,600 --> 02:28:02,960
dwelt here and experienced as I
experienced lived as I lived and

2365
02:28:02,960 --> 02:28:05,480
travail and by the sweat of his
brow.

2366
02:28:07,240 --> 02:28:13,320
He was a God who was wholly like
us and and that meant a lot to

2367
02:28:13,320 --> 02:28:17,000
me, totally like us in all the
right ways and not like us in

2368
02:28:17,000 --> 02:28:23,120
all the ways that matter.
So I had, I gained a firm

2369
02:28:23,120 --> 02:28:29,080
testimony, the Adam God
doctrine, and then just kind of

2370
02:28:29,080 --> 02:28:33,480
full swing from there and
getting into coming into these

2371
02:28:33,480 --> 02:28:37,440
beliefs and receiving a firm
testimony of, of learning about

2372
02:28:37,440 --> 02:28:41,920
these doctrines.
Yeah.

2373
02:28:41,920 --> 02:28:43,160
What do you want?
What do you want to know?

2374
02:28:43,160 --> 02:28:45,120
What can I?
Is there anything specific you

2375
02:28:45,120 --> 02:28:48,280
have in mind so?
So you get, you get all this

2376
02:28:48,280 --> 02:28:52,040
information right.
And look, are you comfortable

2377
02:28:52,040 --> 02:28:54,120
talking about what happened here
about a month ago?

2378
02:28:54,640 --> 02:28:58,880
Yeah, I'll definitely do that.
You want to go in that right now

2379
02:28:58,880 --> 02:29:02,720
or you say something first?
No, I, I think I, I think you

2380
02:29:02,720 --> 02:29:05,480
laid it out pretty well how you
got to the decision you did

2381
02:29:05,480 --> 02:29:10,120
about going kind of espousing
these these teachings and these

2382
02:29:10,120 --> 02:29:11,800
these doctrines.
Yeah.

2383
02:29:11,800 --> 02:29:15,760
So you, you, you, you gain a
testimony of these things.

2384
02:29:15,760 --> 02:29:17,640
What do you do next though,
right.

2385
02:29:17,640 --> 02:29:22,120
Because now it's one thing to
know these academically, it's

2386
02:29:22,120 --> 02:29:25,680
another thing to say, how does
how does this get practiced?

2387
02:29:26,160 --> 02:29:27,280
Right.
Exactly.

2388
02:29:27,280 --> 02:29:33,480
So fortunately, my friend, being
the closeted fundamentalist that

2389
02:29:33,480 --> 02:29:40,240
he is, has contacts in in the in
the, in the community and he

2390
02:29:40,240 --> 02:29:42,560
introduces me to your podcast,
which is eventually how I got

2391
02:29:42,560 --> 02:29:45,200
connected to you.
He, you know, he sent me a link,

2392
02:29:45,200 --> 02:29:49,360
said you should listen to this.
And, you know, it's interesting

2393
02:29:49,360 --> 02:29:52,760
because before I knew that he
was a fundamentalist, sometimes

2394
02:29:52,760 --> 02:29:54,560
in our conversations, he would
mention your podcast.

2395
02:29:54,560 --> 02:29:57,040
He's like, yeah, there's this
podcast for fundamentalists.

2396
02:29:57,040 --> 02:29:59,720
And he's like, I was listening
to this episode and it didn't

2397
02:29:59,720 --> 02:30:01,320
occur to me.
I just thought, oh, he's just

2398
02:30:01,320 --> 02:30:02,680
trying to disprove
fundamentalism.

2399
02:30:02,680 --> 02:30:06,120
That's what it is.
So that's why he's mentioning

2400
02:30:06,120 --> 02:30:08,000
this.
Yeah, Yeah.

2401
02:30:08,080 --> 02:30:13,280
No, no, I'm yeah, yeah, there's,
there's been, there's been more

2402
02:30:13,280 --> 02:30:17,160
times where people have been
like you single handedly, you

2403
02:30:17,160 --> 02:30:21,920
know, screwed some stuff up for
me and I'm like, my bad, my bad.

2404
02:30:24,520 --> 02:30:32,760
So.
Anyway, so he introduced you to

2405
02:30:32,760 --> 02:30:35,000
the podcast and then he
introduced me to several people

2406
02:30:35,000 --> 02:30:39,480
and I got got had the
opportunity to to meet some

2407
02:30:39,480 --> 02:30:42,040
fundamentalists, which was
really awesome.

2408
02:30:43,560 --> 02:30:48,440
The greatest part was sitting in
the houses of people that live

2409
02:30:48,440 --> 02:30:55,520
the principal of First off,
because it taught me, I learned

2410
02:30:55,520 --> 02:30:58,840
so much from them because of how
holy like they're really holy

2411
02:30:58,840 --> 02:31:00,080
men of God who live the
principle.

2412
02:31:00,240 --> 02:31:02,640
They're they're holy men of God
who don't live the principle.

2413
02:31:02,920 --> 02:31:04,120
There's some really holy men of
God.

2414
02:31:04,120 --> 02:31:06,400
That absolutely the principle,
which tells me something.

2415
02:31:06,560 --> 02:31:09,920
If you have any doubts about
whether plural marriage is a

2416
02:31:09,920 --> 02:31:13,400
good or a bad thing morally, you
just need to sit at the feet of

2417
02:31:13,400 --> 02:31:15,480
some people who live in plural
marriage, right?

2418
02:31:15,800 --> 02:31:17,720
It's not that everyone's living
it correctly.

2419
02:31:17,960 --> 02:31:19,760
And there are people that
definitely do it wrong.

2420
02:31:19,760 --> 02:31:23,000
And, you know, the Lord's going
to get a hold of them one day,

2421
02:31:24,320 --> 02:31:28,040
you know, but for the most,
there's a there's a lot of good

2422
02:31:28,040 --> 02:31:30,960
men and women who are living the
principal and sitting in their

2423
02:31:30,960 --> 02:31:33,960
feet learning that they're good.
We're also just learning these

2424
02:31:33,960 --> 02:31:36,640
are normal people that are just
trying to live their lives.

2425
02:31:37,040 --> 02:31:42,200
Yeah, it's so, it's so you don't
ever think that, right?

2426
02:31:42,200 --> 02:31:46,720
We we sensationalize it on TV,
but they're just regular people

2427
02:31:46,720 --> 02:31:48,400
who love Jesus.
It's the truth, right?

2428
02:31:48,440 --> 02:31:52,000
I mean, like there's, there's
two schools of thought when

2429
02:31:52,000 --> 02:31:54,160
someone starts thinking about
plural marriage.

2430
02:31:54,160 --> 02:31:58,520
One is, is that it's always an
unmitigated disaster, right?

2431
02:31:59,920 --> 02:32:03,400
And, or the other is they're all
great and they're all doing a

2432
02:32:03,400 --> 02:32:07,640
great job.
The truth is this, families are

2433
02:32:07,640 --> 02:32:12,080
families, right?
And look, some marriages stink

2434
02:32:12,080 --> 02:32:15,800
on ice and others put in the
time to develop really good,

2435
02:32:15,800 --> 02:32:19,280
strong, healthy relationships.
It's that way in monogamy.

2436
02:32:19,520 --> 02:32:21,800
It's that way in plural, in
plural marriage.

2437
02:32:22,680 --> 02:32:24,840
It's all, it's all about people,
right?

2438
02:32:24,840 --> 02:32:27,800
Some people do a great job.
Some people suck on ice.

2439
02:32:27,800 --> 02:32:30,120
I don't know what to tell you.
It's just what it is.

2440
02:32:30,520 --> 02:32:35,000
But it, it's, it's more
indicative of just

2441
02:32:35,160 --> 02:32:37,680
relationships, right?
It's it's relationships.

2442
02:32:37,720 --> 02:32:40,640
It, it's, you know, I hate to
break it to people.

2443
02:32:40,640 --> 02:32:45,880
It's not nearly as scandalous as
you think, and it's more normal

2444
02:32:45,880 --> 02:32:48,040
than you realize.
It really is.

2445
02:32:48,040 --> 02:32:49,560
Yeah.
I mean, as far as I've seen it

2446
02:32:49,560 --> 02:32:53,560
lived, it's absolutely just
normal.

2447
02:32:53,560 --> 02:32:57,200
And it can be normal.
And so that was just a really

2448
02:32:57,200 --> 02:33:01,880
beautiful opportunity to see the
atonement lived out in those

2449
02:33:01,880 --> 02:33:06,120
places, right.
Celestial marriage is the

2450
02:33:06,120 --> 02:33:11,520
highest form of atonement that
you can see in in on earth, in

2451
02:33:11,520 --> 02:33:16,120
your own life the.
Highest form of atonement.

2452
02:33:16,120 --> 02:33:17,400
That's interesting.
Yeah.

2453
02:33:17,400 --> 02:33:20,760
Explain that to me.
Well, notice that the highest, I

2454
02:33:20,760 --> 02:33:24,880
mean the highest ordinance that
you can receive in the temple is

2455
02:33:24,880 --> 02:33:27,080
celestial marriage.
It's the ceiling.

2456
02:33:27,400 --> 02:33:29,560
And that's the caption.
That's that's the top right.

2457
02:33:29,560 --> 02:33:30,920
After that, what?
What other ordinances?

2458
02:33:30,920 --> 02:33:36,160
I mean, there are other things,
yes, I understand, you know,

2459
02:33:36,160 --> 02:33:39,400
certain things that are a bit
more esoteric and we don't talk

2460
02:33:39,400 --> 02:33:43,120
about it as much.
But in terms of the readily

2461
02:33:43,120 --> 02:33:47,560
available to all worthy persons,
right, This is this is where it

2462
02:33:47,560 --> 02:33:57,440
goes.
And what I mean by this is that

2463
02:33:59,640 --> 02:34:03,000
marriage calls out the highest
in US.

2464
02:34:03,960 --> 02:34:13,440
It requires us like the
atonement to set aside the all

2465
02:34:13,440 --> 02:34:19,200
things in our in the spouse to
say whatever whatever happens to

2466
02:34:19,200 --> 02:34:22,160
you in your life, whatever you
go through, whatever we go

2467
02:34:22,160 --> 02:34:25,000
through, we're going through
this together and I am going to

2468
02:34:25,000 --> 02:34:32,280
sacrificially OfferUp my life
for you as a husband or as a

2469
02:34:32,280 --> 02:34:34,920
wife.
I mean, that's the ideal, right?

2470
02:34:34,920 --> 02:34:41,400
That that individuals give up of
their own selves and souls so

2471
02:34:41,400 --> 02:34:44,520
that another might have life,
that the other might be

2472
02:34:44,520 --> 02:34:48,320
fulfilled.
And the idea is that the other

2473
02:34:48,320 --> 02:34:52,400
person mutually does the same so
that you can be fulfilled, you

2474
02:34:52,400 --> 02:34:55,760
know, but you go through that
kenosis, right in what Paul

2475
02:34:55,760 --> 02:34:59,000
talks about in Philippians,
where Christ empties himself and

2476
02:34:59,000 --> 02:35:00,480
takes upon the form of a
servant.

2477
02:35:00,800 --> 02:35:02,160
And that's what the atonement
is.

2478
02:35:02,640 --> 02:35:07,080
And that's what my view at least
of of celestial marriage is it's

2479
02:35:07,160 --> 02:35:10,840
it's atonement, it is becoming
at one with another person.

2480
02:35:11,440 --> 02:35:12,920
Yep.
So.

2481
02:35:14,080 --> 02:35:17,240
Yeah, beautiful.
So I I that's why I got that's

2482
02:35:17,240 --> 02:35:19,960
what I got out of that those
experiences that I've been

2483
02:35:20,400 --> 02:35:24,040
sitting in the House of houses
of polygamists, seeing just how

2484
02:35:24,040 --> 02:35:29,080
beautiful and they're, they're
monogamous relationships.

2485
02:35:29,080 --> 02:35:30,880
I know that are just as
beautiful and you know I take

2486
02:35:30,880 --> 02:35:39,200
away from those, but it really
so yeah, I learned a lot from

2487
02:35:39,240 --> 02:35:45,240
through those experience got
connected with people had had

2488
02:35:45,240 --> 02:35:49,840
made so many good friends in
just so many good people in

2489
02:35:49,840 --> 02:35:51,680
fundamentalism and there are
great people in the church.

2490
02:35:51,680 --> 02:35:56,480
But I've never found as much
life as I have in the

2491
02:35:56,480 --> 02:36:00,080
fundamentalist movement of
Mormonism, in orthodox Mormonism

2492
02:36:00,320 --> 02:36:04,840
as as it's often called here.
Like there is so much life.

2493
02:36:04,840 --> 02:36:08,120
And by that I mean just beauty
and way of living that is and

2494
02:36:08,120 --> 02:36:10,640
being that is so wholly
different from the world that is

2495
02:36:10,640 --> 02:36:16,520
so consecrated and separate, so
unique and so holy.

2496
02:36:18,960 --> 02:36:23,280
I had never, I never met people
that could be so holy.

2497
02:36:23,280 --> 02:36:27,680
Again, not perfect.
They're fundamentalists that do

2498
02:36:27,680 --> 02:36:29,640
the wrong thing.
And again, that's not to say

2499
02:36:29,640 --> 02:36:32,040
everyone's like that, but I've
had so many good experiences

2500
02:36:32,680 --> 02:36:37,920
where I've really profoundly
felt the Spirit and seeing

2501
02:36:37,920 --> 02:36:40,320
people who just say, you know
what?

2502
02:36:41,920 --> 02:36:44,000
This is how God said he wanted
it to be done.

2503
02:36:44,000 --> 02:36:45,520
So we're going to do our best to
do it.

2504
02:36:48,600 --> 02:36:49,680
We're not going to be perfect at
it.

2505
02:36:49,680 --> 02:36:51,400
We're going to get it wrong
sometimes, but we're going to

2506
02:36:51,400 --> 02:36:53,520
struggle together.
We're going to wrestle with God

2507
02:36:53,520 --> 02:36:57,360
together until we get Zion
because that's who we want to be

2508
02:36:57,600 --> 02:36:58,680
and that's what we want to
build.

2509
02:36:59,480 --> 02:37:01,960
Absolutely.
All right.

2510
02:37:02,120 --> 02:37:04,000
So that that kind of explains
that.

2511
02:37:04,000 --> 02:37:06,360
So what do you do with all this
now?

2512
02:37:06,400 --> 02:37:08,720
Right.
Because again, it's one thing to

2513
02:37:08,720 --> 02:37:11,040
believe these things, it's
another thing to try to figure

2514
02:37:11,040 --> 02:37:12,080
out how you're going to live
them.

2515
02:37:12,640 --> 02:37:15,680
Right.
I never told the soul I like.

2516
02:37:15,680 --> 02:37:20,680
I want, I want to, I want to
clarify that like in the church,

2517
02:37:20,680 --> 02:37:24,280
I wasn't trying to go around and
preach fundamentalism and get

2518
02:37:24,280 --> 02:37:27,600
converts and hey, come with me,
I'm out the door.

2519
02:37:27,960 --> 02:37:31,160
You know, I guess I didn't want
to leave the church.

2520
02:37:31,160 --> 02:37:33,440
I desperately wanted to stay.
I wanted to be a part of this

2521
02:37:33,440 --> 02:37:34,680
church.
I mean, till the day I die, I

2522
02:37:34,680 --> 02:37:36,400
want to be on the membership
polls, right?

2523
02:37:37,400 --> 02:37:41,040
Because I do, I believe, like I
would not have come to Mormonism

2524
02:37:41,040 --> 02:37:44,440
without the church.
I believe the Lord set this

2525
02:37:44,440 --> 02:37:50,520
Kingdom up back in 1830 and I
believe it continued down and

2526
02:37:50,520 --> 02:37:52,920
came to Salt Lake.
And that headquarter, that

2527
02:37:52,920 --> 02:37:55,960
church headquarter in Salt Lake,
is that at least the same

2528
02:37:55,960 --> 02:37:59,720
organization that was there,
even if it's not doing the same

2529
02:37:59,720 --> 02:38:03,680
things, even if it's veered off
a little from its mandate.

2530
02:38:06,160 --> 02:38:11,080
But I'm having several
conversations with a few people,

2531
02:38:11,120 --> 02:38:15,840
like friends, like nobody at my
ward or anything ward level,

2532
02:38:15,840 --> 02:38:18,200
just friends that I am
comfortable and confident

2533
02:38:18,200 --> 02:38:21,320
talking deep doctrine with, as
we would say.

2534
02:38:22,080 --> 02:38:28,000
And I had a friend that I often
talked with and in the past,

2535
02:38:28,000 --> 02:38:32,160
like we would jokingly talk
about, you know, things like all

2536
02:38:32,160 --> 02:38:34,200
plural marriage.
That's so based, that's so cool,

2537
02:38:34,200 --> 02:38:36,360
right?
Like, yeah, it's doctrine,

2538
02:38:36,360 --> 02:38:37,520
right?
In the sense of like, that's

2539
02:38:37,520 --> 02:38:38,920
doctrine.
People who say that it's not

2540
02:38:38,920 --> 02:38:41,840
doctrine.
They're they're cringe, they're

2541
02:38:41,840 --> 02:38:48,320
crazy.
So, you know, we would just kind

2542
02:38:48,320 --> 02:38:52,640
of call out some of the more
progressive rise in Mormonism.

2543
02:38:52,960 --> 02:38:56,800
That's really unfortunate today.
And one day I'm talking to him.

2544
02:38:56,800 --> 02:39:02,000
This is this is in September of
last of this past year, 2024.

2545
02:39:02,440 --> 02:39:06,440
And we're talking and I'm
brought up something about

2546
02:39:07,040 --> 02:39:09,080
plural marriage.
I don't remember exactly what it

2547
02:39:09,080 --> 02:39:11,040
was.
I think I said something like,

2548
02:39:11,320 --> 02:39:13,360
and I've been talking to
fundamentalist at this point.

2549
02:39:13,800 --> 02:39:16,600
This is I started my
fundamentalist journey last

2550
02:39:17,120 --> 02:39:19,360
February ish, March ish,
somewhere around there.

2551
02:39:21,360 --> 02:39:27,960
So I've learned a lot by this
point over six months in and I

2552
02:39:27,960 --> 02:39:33,280
said like, you know, a person I
might have said, I think a

2553
02:39:33,280 --> 02:39:38,360
person can be legally cut off
for plural marriage, but they

2554
02:39:38,360 --> 02:39:41,320
can't be cut off in heaven for
it.

2555
02:39:42,080 --> 02:39:43,200
Sure.
Yeah.

2556
02:39:43,280 --> 02:39:46,200
And by legal, I was referring to
membership in the church.

2557
02:39:48,080 --> 02:39:52,000
And as I just thought that's
it's so clearly doctrine, you

2558
02:39:52,000 --> 02:39:56,240
can't get around it.
And I never made any hint as

2559
02:39:56,240 --> 02:39:59,400
made living plural marriage
like, you know, and that's such

2560
02:39:59,400 --> 02:40:00,840
a that's a far off thing for
you.

2561
02:40:00,840 --> 02:40:02,960
I'm not even married yet.
So I'm not I'm not worried about

2562
02:40:02,960 --> 02:40:04,640
it.
I'm not worried about plural

2563
02:40:04,640 --> 02:40:05,920
marriage.
You know, it's not in my it's

2564
02:40:06,160 --> 02:40:10,080
not something I think about
regularly, though I've thought

2565
02:40:10,080 --> 02:40:13,240
about it a lot lately because of
what's come out, But we'll get

2566
02:40:13,240 --> 02:40:19,600
to that anyway.
So I said that and.

2567
02:40:22,160 --> 02:40:25,600
He's he's I don't even remember
how he responded, but it was it

2568
02:40:25,600 --> 02:40:28,120
was nothing much.
So I just figured out, OK, he's

2569
02:40:28,120 --> 02:40:29,920
just going to.
Yeah, we talked this kind of

2570
02:40:29,920 --> 02:40:35,400
this way all the time.
About a week later, state

2571
02:40:35,400 --> 02:40:40,920
conference rolls around and I
had been asked to share my

2572
02:40:40,920 --> 02:40:47,280
testimony, give a talk.
And so I get up there, get up at

2573
02:40:47,280 --> 02:40:50,800
the pulpit.
I'm reading.

2574
02:40:51,760 --> 02:40:54,000
They should have figured it out,
I guess, by then.

2575
02:40:54,400 --> 02:40:58,120
But I'm sitting on the stand
reading the Diaries of L John

2576
02:40:58,120 --> 02:41:03,240
Nuttall, who was Brigham Young
and John Taylor's secretary,

2577
02:41:03,240 --> 02:41:04,520
Right?
Yeah.

2578
02:41:04,920 --> 02:41:08,000
We get a lot of our endowment
knowledge from early endowment

2579
02:41:08,000 --> 02:41:10,320
knowledge from that diary.
So I'm sitting there reading

2580
02:41:10,320 --> 02:41:15,680
that just for fun because I'm a
dork on the stand waiting.

2581
02:41:16,160 --> 02:41:18,080
And, you know, the C president
comes and says, what?

2582
02:41:18,080 --> 02:41:19,080
Oh, what are you reading?
Oh, Diaries.

2583
02:41:19,080 --> 02:41:20,200
Phil John Nuttall.
He's like, who's that?

2584
02:41:20,240 --> 02:41:22,120
Oh, well, let me tell you.
And.

2585
02:41:23,560 --> 02:41:26,680
Now that's hold, hold on.
That's an important point,

2586
02:41:26,880 --> 02:41:28,680
right?
Because you said it was.

2587
02:41:28,680 --> 02:41:30,880
Your state president asked you
what you were reading.

2588
02:41:31,320 --> 02:41:34,320
Right, right.
And you say the L John Nuttall

2589
02:41:34,320 --> 02:41:37,000
Journal, and he's got no idea
who that dude is.

2590
02:41:37,200 --> 02:41:39,680
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There you go.

2591
02:41:40,440 --> 02:41:43,920
That, yeah, that should tell you
the state of our situation

2592
02:41:44,040 --> 02:41:45,360
today.
Yep.

2593
02:41:46,320 --> 02:41:49,560
So I just sit there reading,
enjoying and then several other

2594
02:41:49,560 --> 02:41:52,000
people came up on the stand.
So I was just chatting with

2595
02:41:52,000 --> 02:41:56,960
them, introducing myself and
eventually comes time for me to

2596
02:41:56,960 --> 02:42:05,560
give my talk and I got up there
and I I just started baring my

2597
02:42:05,560 --> 02:42:11,440
soul.
And in fact, I started out, you

2598
02:42:11,440 --> 02:42:14,960
know, you can never or go wrong
if you start quoting at state

2599
02:42:14,960 --> 02:42:16,840
conference from the journal
discourses.

2600
02:42:17,280 --> 02:42:23,600
So this is a one of the best
quotes, I think from from

2601
02:42:23,600 --> 02:42:29,920
Brother Brigham and it's in
volume to page 1/21/23 for those

2602
02:42:29,920 --> 02:42:34,920
looking.
But he says in a word, if

2603
02:42:34,920 --> 02:42:39,640
Mormonism is not my life, I do
not know that I have any.

2604
02:42:40,960 --> 02:42:43,560
Wow.
Right, I do not understand

2605
02:42:43,600 --> 02:42:46,440
anything else for it embraces
everything that comes within the

2606
02:42:46,440 --> 02:42:51,720
range of the understanding of
man and and I just, I started, I

2607
02:42:51,720 --> 02:42:57,000
started telling my story, right
And about how did I come to this

2608
02:42:57,000 --> 02:43:00,760
point where Mormonism is my life
and I don't know of any other

2609
02:43:00,760 --> 02:43:07,320
life.
And I just kept burying my soul

2610
02:43:07,320 --> 02:43:09,680
and my testimony.
And unplanned, unbeknownst to

2611
02:43:09,680 --> 02:43:22,040
me, Spirit starts talking.
And I testified of Adam's role

2612
02:43:22,040 --> 02:43:25,120
in our salvation and our
exultation.

2613
02:43:26,120 --> 02:43:30,240
I told the people who he is to
the extent that anyone who had

2614
02:43:30,240 --> 02:43:36,120
ears to hear would hear.
I told them what would happen at

2615
02:43:36,120 --> 02:43:40,880
Adam on Diamond.
I told them that we would meet

2616
02:43:40,880 --> 02:43:47,320
him, Adam, and that he would
usher him, usher us into his

2617
02:43:47,320 --> 02:43:53,200
Kingdom to receive eternal
lives, worlds without end.

2618
02:43:57,080 --> 02:44:04,040
I told the people that and the
Spirit was so was so with me,

2619
02:44:04,080 --> 02:44:08,560
like it was just profound, like
no thing of my own.

2620
02:44:08,560 --> 02:44:13,040
This is not me, You know, I'm
I'm again, I'm a man of little

2621
02:44:13,040 --> 02:44:15,720
consequence in this Kingdom.
I I'm not a big deal.

2622
02:44:16,320 --> 02:44:20,280
I'm small fish in big waters.
And but that testimony, the Lord

2623
02:44:20,280 --> 02:44:22,360
was like, this is what's going
to be spoken today.

2624
02:44:22,760 --> 02:44:31,760
So I said OK, and so I said it
and I and and it was funny.

2625
02:44:31,760 --> 02:44:34,480
I looked out and I saw several
people.

2626
02:44:34,480 --> 02:44:37,120
This was a this was an audience
of over 1000 people.

2627
02:44:37,440 --> 02:44:40,320
It was, it was scary, but I saw
people.

2628
02:44:40,320 --> 02:44:42,760
I saw tons of yeah, this is
awesome.

2629
02:44:42,760 --> 02:44:45,240
Like, heck yeah.
Or go back to Jackson County.

2630
02:44:45,240 --> 02:44:47,880
We're going to build Zion.
Lord's going to come back and

2631
02:44:47,880 --> 02:44:52,920
we're going to Adam and Diamond.
And it's like, yeah.

2632
02:44:52,920 --> 02:44:56,440
So then I sat down, figured
everything was good.

2633
02:44:56,440 --> 02:45:01,720
The temple president Matron that
spoke after, you know, so pretty

2634
02:45:01,720 --> 02:45:04,720
highly the talk, they felt the
spirit was pretty strong and

2635
02:45:05,480 --> 02:45:07,360
thought, yeah, everybody,
everybody was cool with it.

2636
02:45:07,360 --> 02:45:13,760
Like nobody, nobody noticed what
I just said, what the spirit

2637
02:45:13,760 --> 02:45:18,760
just said.
And so went through the rest of

2638
02:45:18,760 --> 02:45:22,800
that session and sitting there
at the end, yeah.

2639
02:45:23,320 --> 02:45:26,360
Let me stop real quick here
because I think this is super

2640
02:45:26,360 --> 02:45:27,960
important.
I think this is a hinge point

2641
02:45:27,960 --> 02:45:29,080
here.
Yeah.

2642
02:45:30,320 --> 02:45:34,520
You didn't say Adam was God.
No, right?

2643
02:45:35,160 --> 02:45:39,520
You didn't say he was the our
God and the only God that we

2644
02:45:39,520 --> 02:45:41,560
have to do with Allah.
Brigham Young.

2645
02:45:42,280 --> 02:45:45,560
Right.
What you said was exactly what

2646
02:45:45,560 --> 02:45:48,160
we find in the Doctrine and
Covenants, right?

2647
02:45:48,400 --> 02:45:51,960
Where we will go back, we will
make an accounting to Adam.

2648
02:45:53,040 --> 02:45:57,360
Adam will then give the keys to
Christ in Adam on diamond,

2649
02:45:57,600 --> 02:45:58,840
right?
That's all you said.

2650
02:45:59,360 --> 02:46:03,400
Right, maybe maybe a little bit
more, but I mean never as

2651
02:46:03,400 --> 02:46:05,960
explicit as Adam is our father
and our God.

2652
02:46:06,400 --> 02:46:09,760
You know, I did, I said that
Adam was responsible for our

2653
02:46:09,760 --> 02:46:12,760
eternities, you know, things
like this.

2654
02:46:12,760 --> 02:46:15,200
But I I think that's pretty
matches pretty well with

2655
02:46:15,200 --> 02:46:17,480
Doctrine of Covenants, but.
Yeah, absolutely.

2656
02:46:18,200 --> 02:46:22,440
And the teachings of prophetess.
Smith but it brings the spirit

2657
02:46:22,440 --> 02:46:27,480
the the temple patron and matron
like, give props, right?

2658
02:46:27,480 --> 02:46:28,720
Yeah, yeah.
OK.

2659
02:46:29,400 --> 02:46:31,400
All right, continue on.
I just wanted to point that out.

2660
02:46:32,240 --> 02:46:36,760
So I spoke that and the the
session ends and I'm sitting

2661
02:46:36,760 --> 02:46:43,280
there and I see my my Bishop
making a beeline towards me.

2662
02:46:43,400 --> 02:46:47,600
So I I said OK, cool.
Yeah, he's he's coming to to

2663
02:46:47,600 --> 02:46:50,400
congratulate me, to say oh, you
did a good job, whatever.

2664
02:46:51,080 --> 02:46:52,600
All right, cool.
Yeah, that's great.

2665
02:46:52,840 --> 02:46:54,720
So I'm, I'm waiting for him.
He comes up to me.

2666
02:46:55,160 --> 02:46:57,120
I was talking to a few other
people that are asking me some

2667
02:46:57,120 --> 02:46:59,120
questions and then he gets to
me.

2668
02:46:59,120 --> 02:47:03,600
He said we need to talk now, we
need to talk now.

2669
02:47:05,200 --> 02:47:10,680
It did not look happy.
She said, OK, I'm, I'm really

2670
02:47:10,680 --> 02:47:15,480
confused.
And I guess the, what I had said

2671
02:47:15,480 --> 02:47:19,240
didn't really link together yet
with what was going on.

2672
02:47:19,240 --> 02:47:26,360
And he pulls me in to his
office, which we're at the stake

2673
02:47:26,360 --> 02:47:27,640
center.
So it's right there in the

2674
02:47:27,640 --> 02:47:29,120
office.
His office is there in the stake

2675
02:47:29,120 --> 02:47:36,480
center.
And we sit down and the the Utah

2676
02:47:36,480 --> 02:47:45,120
Inquisition begins.
And you know, you never expect

2677
02:47:45,120 --> 02:47:47,680
an inquisition when you're
talking with your Bishop.

2678
02:47:52,520 --> 02:47:56,000
And for about two hours, like it
was a long time.

2679
02:47:56,000 --> 02:47:58,800
I know the ending, the meeting
ended up being three, 3 1/2

2680
02:47:58,840 --> 02:48:02,360
hours, maybe four, 2 1/2 hours
is going up.

2681
02:48:02,360 --> 02:48:06,000
He's like, I feel like you've
got something to tell me, right?

2682
02:48:08,720 --> 02:48:11,760
The Lord's telling me you need
to tell me this set this thing.

2683
02:48:11,760 --> 02:48:16,040
And I'm like, what do I do?
I, I'm not, I'm, I know what

2684
02:48:16,040 --> 02:48:19,960
he's talking about, but I'm not
saying anything because I have

2685
02:48:19,960 --> 02:48:23,680
enough friends in fundamentalism
that I learned a very important

2686
02:48:23,680 --> 02:48:28,920
phrase from them.
And this is if you ever want to

2687
02:48:28,920 --> 02:48:30,200
stay in the church and you're
fundamentalist.

2688
02:48:30,520 --> 02:48:32,680
And that phrase that they taught
me, it's really beautiful

2689
02:48:32,680 --> 02:48:34,440
phrase.
It's 3 words, three simple

2690
02:48:34,440 --> 02:48:39,800
words, deny, deny, deny.
So I was taught with that.

2691
02:48:40,400 --> 02:48:44,120
I was taught that, you know, I
was like, this day might come

2692
02:48:44,120 --> 02:48:47,760
and you're going to have to deny
if you want, if you want to stay

2693
02:48:47,760 --> 02:48:49,760
in the church, if you want to
keep your membership, you're

2694
02:48:49,760 --> 02:48:57,960
going to have to deny.
And I was denying every part as

2695
02:48:57,960 --> 02:48:59,480
I could.
And I just got tired.

2696
02:48:59,800 --> 02:49:01,920
I was so done with it.
Like I don't want to be

2697
02:49:01,920 --> 02:49:04,840
questioned anymore, said.
So I finally let it out.

2698
02:49:04,840 --> 02:49:08,320
I said I associate with
fundamentalist, I believe

2699
02:49:08,320 --> 02:49:14,120
fundamentalist doctrine.
He said I know.

2700
02:49:15,720 --> 02:49:27,800
And then the truth came out.
I was betrayed by my friend that

2701
02:49:27,800 --> 02:49:32,920
I love who felt the need to call
my Bishop.

2702
02:49:34,080 --> 02:49:37,400
And then the Bishop in state
conference hears many talking

2703
02:49:37,400 --> 02:49:38,840
about the things that I'm
talking about.

2704
02:49:39,640 --> 02:49:45,000
And he's able to, he's got a
witness from one person who says

2705
02:49:45,000 --> 02:49:47,120
this thing and he's got
confirmation of the witness

2706
02:49:47,120 --> 02:49:49,600
because of what I'm talking
about and state conference,

2707
02:49:50,680 --> 02:49:57,160
right?
He has first hand knowledge of

2708
02:49:58,400 --> 02:50:05,920
me and fundamentalism and and
I'm devastated.

2709
02:50:05,920 --> 02:50:08,560
So I just, I was like, but I
don't want to be here anymore.

2710
02:50:08,760 --> 02:50:13,680
So I said OK, yeah, I believe in
fundamentalist doctrine.

2711
02:50:17,320 --> 02:50:19,560
Oh, my blood's boiling.
But we're going to wait because

2712
02:50:19,560 --> 02:50:21,640
I have a feeling it's going to
boil a little bit more here.

2713
02:50:22,080 --> 02:50:28,360
Yeah, so then the eyes get
started on me.

2714
02:50:30,840 --> 02:50:32,200
People start to check in with
me.

2715
02:50:32,200 --> 02:50:37,160
A lot more people with callings.
I get an.

2716
02:50:37,160 --> 02:50:39,280
I get asked to take on another
calling.

2717
02:50:40,440 --> 02:50:43,120
I assume that's just so they
have some more eyes on me, not a

2718
02:50:43,120 --> 02:50:45,120
teaching.
Come on, did did your Bishop try

2719
02:50:45,120 --> 02:50:47,800
to disfellowship you or anything
out of this meeting?

2720
02:50:48,120 --> 02:50:51,040
Not yet.
So what he wanted to do was to

2721
02:50:51,040 --> 02:50:53,440
see if we could quell this.
OK.

2722
02:50:54,640 --> 02:50:59,320
So he he says, here's what we're
going to do.

2723
02:51:00,480 --> 02:51:02,360
You're going to go over to the
state president right now.

2724
02:51:03,680 --> 02:51:07,320
You're going to tell him
everything you just told me, and

2725
02:51:09,120 --> 02:51:10,480
you're going to start working
with him.

2726
02:51:11,360 --> 02:51:16,960
And so that that began people
checking in on me more and more,

2727
02:51:18,720 --> 02:51:26,560
unusually finding out about me
and making sure, you know, I was

2728
02:51:26,680 --> 02:51:30,880
included and involved.
The best way you can get, you

2729
02:51:30,880 --> 02:51:37,040
know, someone off their apostate
beliefs is by plunging them into

2730
02:51:37,040 --> 02:51:39,960
activity, right?
And getting involved and seeing

2731
02:51:39,960 --> 02:51:42,080
the program and how good the
program is.

2732
02:51:42,080 --> 02:51:44,400
And if you're, if you love the
program, then why would you ever

2733
02:51:44,400 --> 02:51:47,080
want to leave the program and
the, the group?

2734
02:51:47,080 --> 02:51:49,520
And, and I didn't want to leave
the church at this point.

2735
02:51:49,520 --> 02:51:53,640
I, I planned as long as I could,
right, to be in the church and

2736
02:51:53,640 --> 02:51:59,360
then maybe also join a group and
just live in silence that way.

2737
02:51:59,360 --> 02:52:02,400
And I knew eventually that
wouldn't work if I ever decided

2738
02:52:02,400 --> 02:52:04,880
to, you know, enter the
principal.

2739
02:52:04,880 --> 02:52:07,000
I couldn't really.
I don't know how easy it'd be to

2740
02:52:07,000 --> 02:52:09,840
take if you went into church
every Sunday, but.

2741
02:52:11,000 --> 02:52:13,200
OK, you you might have some.
Advice on that one?

2742
02:52:14,080 --> 02:52:16,160
Yeah, I was going to say, yeah,
it can be done.

2743
02:52:18,480 --> 02:52:19,880
It can.
It can be done.

2744
02:52:20,280 --> 02:52:21,480
They're just not going to like
it.

2745
02:52:22,080 --> 02:52:23,240
Right.
Absolutely.

2746
02:52:25,080 --> 02:52:26,280
So anyway, that was my
intention.

2747
02:52:26,280 --> 02:52:28,680
Like, I love the church so much,
I didn't want to give it up.

2748
02:52:28,680 --> 02:52:34,240
And, and, and yeah, that's what
I believe was the original

2749
02:52:34,240 --> 02:52:36,960
intention of people like Joseph
Musser and the the priesthood

2750
02:52:36,960 --> 02:52:38,480
Council.
They, they wanted, they didn't

2751
02:52:38,480 --> 02:52:39,920
want to have to separate from
the church.

2752
02:52:42,040 --> 02:52:44,600
It was just because of the
requirement they still sustain

2753
02:52:44,600 --> 02:52:49,160
the church.
So anyway, the program begins.

2754
02:52:49,560 --> 02:52:54,400
I'm meeting with state president
and Bishop really regularly

2755
02:52:56,320 --> 02:53:00,360
state presidents trying to get
me, you know, to stay or at

2756
02:53:00,360 --> 02:53:03,440
least try to get me to renounce
my my thoughts.

2757
02:53:03,440 --> 02:53:07,360
Gives me like the that Ezra Taft
Benson talk the fundamentals of

2758
02:53:07,360 --> 02:53:12,360
following the prophet, right?
Tries to get me into this idea

2759
02:53:12,360 --> 02:53:13,680
that you can't follow the
prophet.

2760
02:53:13,920 --> 02:53:16,720
And then the same time he's
trying to say that, you know, it

2761
02:53:16,720 --> 02:53:19,360
can't make sense for you to
believe this way where there's

2762
02:53:19,680 --> 02:53:21,120
some authority outside the
church.

2763
02:53:21,120 --> 02:53:22,800
It's illogical.
It doesn't make sense.

2764
02:53:22,800 --> 02:53:25,680
And I said, well, you, you don't
know the full story.

2765
02:53:25,680 --> 02:53:28,800
You don't know the whole way
this happened.

2766
02:53:29,000 --> 02:53:31,600
You know, it would make sense if
you understood the separation of

2767
02:53:31,600 --> 02:53:34,560
church and priesthood.
I can't get you to understand

2768
02:53:34,560 --> 02:53:36,440
that.
And I don't want, I don't want

2769
02:53:36,440 --> 02:53:38,520
to ruin anybody's faith here.
So I'm not going to.

2770
02:53:38,720 --> 02:53:41,320
I didn't mention, I never
brought up the 1886 revelation.

2771
02:53:41,320 --> 02:53:44,640
I didn't mention the woolly
story because I, I'm not going

2772
02:53:44,640 --> 02:53:47,360
to put other people in a place
where they might be tried.

2773
02:53:48,480 --> 02:53:51,400
It's not my.
Phone to tribe and and look,

2774
02:53:51,520 --> 02:53:54,360
I've I've never advocated for
that.

2775
02:53:54,360 --> 02:53:56,640
You don't know where someone's
at in their spiritual walk,

2776
02:53:56,640 --> 02:53:58,840
right?
That much, that much knowledge

2777
02:53:58,840 --> 02:54:00,720
up front that could break a guy,
right?

2778
02:54:00,720 --> 02:54:03,880
It really could.
So you, you, you're very gentle

2779
02:54:03,880 --> 02:54:05,880
as, as you want to share these
things.

2780
02:54:05,880 --> 02:54:09,680
You don't want to just dump on
somebody all this information.

2781
02:54:10,160 --> 02:54:13,440
You have to be especially, I
mean a stake presence of married

2782
02:54:13,440 --> 02:54:16,680
man, right?
Like that could ruin a marriage

2783
02:54:16,680 --> 02:54:20,240
if, if, if the wife's not ready
for someone to believe in those

2784
02:54:20,240 --> 02:54:22,240
kind of things, it can be really
big.

2785
02:54:22,240 --> 02:54:24,600
So I, I was very gentle.
I didn't want to, I didn't

2786
02:54:24,600 --> 02:54:27,480
mention it all.
You know, I, so I'm just like,

2787
02:54:27,480 --> 02:54:30,760
I'm trying to defend myself as
best as I could or as best as I

2788
02:54:30,760 --> 02:54:37,800
can at that point.
And just going on and, and

2789
02:54:37,800 --> 02:54:39,800
listening to what he's saying
and saying, yes, Sir, I

2790
02:54:39,800 --> 02:54:41,480
understand, Sir.
Thank you, Sir.

2791
02:54:41,880 --> 02:54:45,560
You know, like just kind of
saying, look, this is all, this

2792
02:54:45,560 --> 02:54:47,200
is all baloney.
What you're saying what you're

2793
02:54:47,200 --> 02:54:50,360
trying to sell me here like I
appreciate your effort.

2794
02:54:50,360 --> 02:54:52,800
I love, I love it.
I love your passion for the

2795
02:54:52,800 --> 02:54:56,560
church and I love I love the
church myself, but something is

2796
02:54:56,560 --> 02:54:59,240
not right here and I cannot
ignore that something is not

2797
02:54:59,240 --> 02:55:02,760
right.
I know that it's not right much

2798
02:55:02,760 --> 02:55:08,600
as I love the church, right?
I'm going to do this.

2799
02:55:08,720 --> 02:55:11,200
I'm going to and and for me like
right.

2800
02:55:11,200 --> 02:55:14,960
They want me to sustain, to
sustain the profit as to is to

2801
02:55:14,960 --> 02:55:16,680
believe everything that comes
out of their mouth.

2802
02:55:16,680 --> 02:55:19,720
No, you know what sustaining the
the prophet means?

2803
02:55:19,920 --> 02:55:22,160
Sustaining the prophet means
holding them accountable to the

2804
02:55:22,160 --> 02:55:27,960
truth.
And I'm really convinced of

2805
02:55:27,960 --> 02:55:30,280
that.
Like no man is susceptible or is

2806
02:55:30,280 --> 02:55:32,520
insusceptible to error.
I am.

2807
02:55:32,520 --> 02:55:35,280
I am just as much as the next
guy and I could be an error.

2808
02:55:35,280 --> 02:55:37,600
And if I'm an error, I want
people to point that out to me.

2809
02:55:38,120 --> 02:55:40,400
But that also means that the
president church can be an

2810
02:55:40,400 --> 02:55:42,320
error.
That's not a bad thing.

2811
02:55:42,720 --> 02:55:45,080
It's it's a Calder Pence.
It's just a call to be better.

2812
02:55:45,080 --> 02:55:46,920
That's all it is.
It doesn't have to be earth

2813
02:55:46,920 --> 02:55:50,200
shattering in order to say, hey,
Mr. President Nelson, we need to

2814
02:55:50,200 --> 02:55:52,040
get back on track and do these
things.

2815
02:55:52,640 --> 02:55:53,920
That doesn't have to be a big
deal.

2816
02:55:55,000 --> 02:55:57,600
But it was it is for a lot of
people.

2817
02:55:57,800 --> 02:56:01,160
So I guess.
But so we go through that

2818
02:56:01,160 --> 02:56:08,520
process and question finally
comes up or I'm I just, I, I'm

2819
02:56:08,520 --> 02:56:11,520
further, I'm getting tired of
these meetings of, of listening

2820
02:56:11,520 --> 02:56:13,040
to things that I know I'm not
going to deal with.

2821
02:56:13,040 --> 02:56:17,480
I don't believe her.
And so I told him, I said, look,

2822
02:56:18,480 --> 02:56:20,440
I, I wanted to set a meeting
with a Bishop.

2823
02:56:21,120 --> 02:56:23,200
I actually just showed up as an
office and I'm like, hey, is

2824
02:56:23,200 --> 02:56:29,280
there any way I can get in?
And I'm going to, I intend to

2825
02:56:29,280 --> 02:56:34,800
live this.
I intend to do this at the same

2826
02:56:34,800 --> 02:56:40,120
time I had as an effort of
caution, right?

2827
02:56:40,120 --> 02:56:44,000
I stopped attending church with,
I went to church with

2828
02:56:44,000 --> 02:56:47,200
fundamentalist, but I stopped
attending church at the LDS

2829
02:56:47,200 --> 02:56:49,480
church because I felt that
prompting.

2830
02:56:49,480 --> 02:56:51,360
I felt it would be safer.
I don't want it, like I said, I

2831
02:56:51,360 --> 02:56:54,120
don't want to ruin people's
faith, put people in harm's way

2832
02:56:54,440 --> 02:56:56,920
if I accidentally say something
and it's going to be hard for me

2833
02:56:56,920 --> 02:56:58,640
not to say something about
certain things.

2834
02:56:59,000 --> 02:57:02,040
Like, you know, if we start
talking about DNC in the United

2835
02:57:02,040 --> 02:57:04,120
Order, like I'm going to talk
about it and say we're not doing

2836
02:57:04,120 --> 02:57:05,720
it.
If this was right when the

2837
02:57:05,720 --> 02:57:07,760
garment changes were were
happening and it was like,

2838
02:57:07,960 --> 02:57:11,920
that's not the garment, right.
I'm not going to not say

2839
02:57:11,920 --> 02:57:16,040
something.
And so I I had stopped, you

2840
02:57:16,040 --> 02:57:17,640
know, they'd already said you're
not allowed to use your

2841
02:57:17,640 --> 02:57:19,120
priesthood.
Can't take the sacrament.

2842
02:57:19,120 --> 02:57:23,160
So like for me at that point,
church is just sitting in a Pew

2843
02:57:26,000 --> 02:57:30,240
and said, look, I'm going to
live this way.

2844
02:57:32,960 --> 02:57:36,520
When the time comes and I'm able
to, I'm going to enter a united

2845
02:57:36,520 --> 02:57:38,920
order or I'm going to start a
united order.

2846
02:57:38,920 --> 02:57:40,920
I don't know what's going to
happen, but I'm going to do it

2847
02:57:41,320 --> 02:57:44,600
like I'm going to live the way
the Lord wants me.

2848
02:57:44,600 --> 02:57:46,160
I'm going to live the fullness
of the gospel.

2849
02:57:46,760 --> 02:57:50,040
It is true.
And there is nothing anyone can

2850
02:57:50,040 --> 02:57:53,840
do to take me away from that.
And I have the right to live the

2851
02:57:53,840 --> 02:57:59,800
fullness of the gospel if I want
to, you know, and that's even if

2852
02:57:59,800 --> 02:58:01,160
the church says you can't,
right?

2853
02:58:01,840 --> 02:58:05,280
Lorenzo Snow in the Journal of
Discourse is actually says men

2854
02:58:05,280 --> 02:58:08,320
have the right to live the
fullness even when it's not on

2855
02:58:08,320 --> 02:58:11,040
the earth, right?
You know, they have the right to

2856
02:58:11,040 --> 02:58:13,120
pursue it.
So even if the church says,

2857
02:58:13,120 --> 02:58:16,520
well, look, Lorenzo Snow, the
key holder since you can.

2858
02:58:16,760 --> 02:58:24,000
So right.
But anyway, so I told him my

2859
02:58:24,000 --> 02:58:25,880
intentions that I'm going to
live this way when the

2860
02:58:25,880 --> 02:58:31,080
opportunity opens itself.
And they said, OK, then you

2861
02:58:31,080 --> 02:58:35,720
know, we're going to, we're
going to go our separate ways.

2862
02:58:35,720 --> 02:58:37,320
If you're going to, if you're
going to, if you're going to be

2863
02:58:37,320 --> 02:58:39,680
a fundamentalist now, if you're
going to, if you're going to

2864
02:58:39,680 --> 02:58:45,280
join fundamentalism, then you're
going to, you're going to suffer

2865
02:58:45,280 --> 02:58:46,840
the consequences, you're going
to pay the price.

2866
02:58:47,400 --> 02:58:50,840
Yep.
And remember, that's what I

2867
02:58:50,840 --> 02:58:54,760
signed up for when I said I want
the Lord to send me and do

2868
02:58:54,760 --> 02:58:58,400
something with me that required
me to suffer and for his sake.

2869
02:59:02,280 --> 02:59:06,640
And so I was willing to do that.
And it's interesting right side

2870
02:59:06,640 --> 02:59:10,360
we're talking about suffering.
We we we quoted Romans 8

2871
02:59:10,360 --> 02:59:14,120
earlier.
So the Prophet Joseph Smith on

2872
02:59:14,120 --> 02:59:18,320
page three O 9 of teaching TPJS,
he says there are great many

2873
02:59:18,320 --> 02:59:22,280
wise men who and women in our
midst who are too wise to be

2874
02:59:22,280 --> 02:59:26,080
taught.
Therefore they must die in their

2875
02:59:26,080 --> 02:59:28,920
ignorance and in the
resurrection they will find out

2876
02:59:28,920 --> 02:59:31,280
their mistake.
Many seal up the door of heaven

2877
02:59:31,280 --> 02:59:34,200
by saying, so far God may reveal
and I will believe.

2878
02:59:34,440 --> 02:59:36,800
I'll go no further.
Then he says this.

2879
02:59:36,840 --> 02:59:40,880
All men who become heirs of God
and joint heirs with Christ will

2880
02:59:40,880 --> 02:59:43,720
have to receive the fullness of
the ordinances of the Kingdom,

2881
02:59:44,280 --> 02:59:46,040
and those who will not receive
all the ordinances will fall

2882
02:59:46,040 --> 02:59:47,600
short.
It's interesting right?

2883
02:59:47,600 --> 02:59:50,400
You can see the illusion to
Romans chapter 8 there of the

2884
02:59:50,400 --> 02:59:53,680
becoming heirs of God.
The follow up to becoming heirs

2885
02:59:53,680 --> 02:59:58,160
of God is what if they suffer
and here he says those who

2886
02:59:58,160 --> 03:00:00,920
receive are those if they will
obey that keep the fullness of

2887
03:00:00,920 --> 03:00:03,080
the ordinances.
In other words, there's a

2888
03:00:03,080 --> 03:00:05,920
certain equivalency between
suffering for the sake of the

2889
03:00:05,920 --> 03:00:08,480
gospel that you might be
glorified together with him, and

2890
03:00:08,480 --> 03:00:10,560
also receiving the fullness of
the ordinances.

2891
03:00:11,720 --> 03:00:13,480
There is suffering in the
fullness of the ordinances.

2892
03:00:13,480 --> 03:00:16,440
It is hard work to live the
gospel, to live the United

2893
03:00:16,440 --> 03:00:18,680
Order, to sell all of your
things right in a certain way

2894
03:00:18,680 --> 03:00:21,720
and and give up of your own
self, to live plural marriage

2895
03:00:21,720 --> 03:00:25,080
and have to.
To worry about the financial

2896
03:00:25,080 --> 03:00:29,200
hardships that that brings, to
worry about the, the increased

2897
03:00:29,200 --> 03:00:32,840
complexity of a, of a multi
person, multi adult family,

2898
03:00:32,840 --> 03:00:35,240
right?
That's there's a lot of hard

2899
03:00:35,240 --> 03:00:36,880
times you got to endure to get
through.

2900
03:00:37,400 --> 03:00:41,000
And, and so I said, I want to
suffer.

2901
03:00:41,560 --> 03:00:43,320
I want Romans 8 to be part of my
life.

2902
03:00:43,360 --> 03:00:45,840
Well, Romans 8 right here,
according to Joseph Smith, means

2903
03:00:45,840 --> 03:00:47,240
living the fullness of the
Gospel.

2904
03:00:47,760 --> 03:00:53,160
Yeah, wow, Great insight.
It's it's fabulous.

2905
03:00:54,720 --> 03:00:56,520
Yeah.
The gospel is just this.

2906
03:00:56,560 --> 03:01:01,040
It's this never ending mention
of treasure troves and nooks and

2907
03:01:01,040 --> 03:01:03,000
crannies.
Absolutely.

2908
03:01:03,800 --> 03:01:05,480
So.
So.

2909
03:01:07,160 --> 03:01:08,920
So they they did excommunicate
you.

2910
03:01:09,600 --> 03:01:12,680
Yeah.
So we held the trial, the letter

2911
03:01:12,680 --> 03:01:16,720
said.
Apostasy was my charge.

2912
03:01:18,160 --> 03:01:20,200
I was.
I was really hoping for more of

2913
03:01:20,280 --> 03:01:24,440
a legal style court where
evidence would be honored.

2914
03:01:24,440 --> 03:01:28,560
And you know, I, I, I guess I'm
more of an idealist in that

2915
03:01:28,560 --> 03:01:34,480
sense.
You know, it wasn't that way.

2916
03:01:34,600 --> 03:01:42,120
I, I went in, I, I prepared 07
or 8 pages of notes in my

2917
03:01:42,120 --> 03:01:46,600
defense.
I've brought along a copy of

2918
03:01:48,080 --> 03:01:50,880
didn't know I was even going to
use it, but Revelation 1880 to

2919
03:01:50,880 --> 03:01:54,880
1890 by Ogden Kraut compiled
with all the revelations from

2920
03:01:54,880 --> 03:02:00,600
that was 10 year period.
And I brought is it Anne Wilde's

2921
03:02:01,200 --> 03:02:04,400
essential for Exaltation book,
just just in case.

2922
03:02:04,400 --> 03:02:08,480
I wanted to have everything and
I wanted to be able to say not I

2923
03:02:08,480 --> 03:02:11,640
didn't want to say the church,
you're wrong, you're evil,

2924
03:02:11,640 --> 03:02:13,360
you're wicked.
I wanted to be able to say,

2925
03:02:13,360 --> 03:02:17,760
look, you can, you can go this
way.

2926
03:02:17,760 --> 03:02:21,440
If this is the way you want to
go, No one because God honors

2927
03:02:21,440 --> 03:02:24,320
agency.
God is not going to force you to

2928
03:02:24,320 --> 03:02:26,360
live these ways, right?
That's 1886 revelation.

2929
03:02:26,360 --> 03:02:29,680
Like if you I've been patient
because of I delight in the

2930
03:02:29,680 --> 03:02:31,920
agency of man.
Not that I'm going to say you're

2931
03:02:31,920 --> 03:02:34,240
right and not that and you're
not going to get the fullness of

2932
03:02:34,240 --> 03:02:36,240
the blessings.
But if you don't want that, you

2933
03:02:36,240 --> 03:02:40,160
don't have to have it.
You can choose like you didn't

2934
03:02:40,160 --> 03:02:42,200
have to join this church.
You didn't have to do anything.

2935
03:02:44,160 --> 03:02:48,480
So I just said, look, I had
there is a way, there is a means

2936
03:02:48,480 --> 03:02:50,920
for this to be done.
Please let me do it.

2937
03:02:50,920 --> 03:02:53,920
I beg you.
I read the 1886 revelation.

2938
03:02:53,920 --> 03:02:56,880
I was not going planning on
doing it, but the question came

2939
03:02:56,880 --> 03:03:00,760
up, how Can you believe that
there is priesthood outside the

2940
03:03:00,760 --> 03:03:02,080
church?
How Can you believe that this is

2941
03:03:02,080 --> 03:03:05,120
even possible?
So let me tell you, let me give

2942
03:03:05,120 --> 03:03:08,840
you that story.
I said, look, there was this

2943
03:03:08,840 --> 03:03:11,520
revelation is the word of the
Lord.

2944
03:03:12,160 --> 03:03:14,040
It was given.
And I told the story of the

2945
03:03:14,040 --> 03:03:18,000
Woolies in 1886 and all this,
and I read that revelation and

2946
03:03:18,000 --> 03:03:19,680
it was just like a big nothing
burger.

2947
03:03:20,120 --> 03:03:23,440
It's like, who cares?
They this isn't, this isn't

2948
03:03:23,440 --> 03:03:26,760
recognized as an authorized,
this is not a this is this is

2949
03:03:26,760 --> 03:03:28,680
garbage, right?
This is this is fake.

2950
03:03:31,000 --> 03:03:33,000
Moved on.
So then they said not long after

2951
03:03:33,000 --> 03:03:34,880
that, completely ignored, moved
on from it.

2952
03:03:36,120 --> 03:03:39,400
I was accused of being a
pedophile.

2953
03:03:41,720 --> 03:03:45,760
Yeah, listen to this.
So First off, I was asked, are

2954
03:03:45,760 --> 03:03:50,280
you a polygamist?
I I said state president.

2955
03:03:50,440 --> 03:03:55,600
You know, I'm not married.
I'm in AYSA young single adult.

2956
03:03:56,120 --> 03:03:58,720
I'm not married.
Why?

2957
03:03:59,040 --> 03:04:01,160
How would I be a polygamist?
And I don't know if you know how

2958
03:04:01,160 --> 03:04:04,360
polygamy works, but like you
don't just become a polygamist

2959
03:04:04,360 --> 03:04:06,280
the day you join a polygamist
group.

2960
03:04:06,280 --> 03:04:08,920
And there's a thing called
marriage, you know, you get

2961
03:04:08,920 --> 03:04:13,960
married the first time and then
eventually, you know, you and

2962
03:04:13,960 --> 03:04:17,440
your wife will see someone that
you're interested in and then

2963
03:04:17,440 --> 03:04:19,640
you decide to pursue that.
And if it works out, it works

2964
03:04:19,640 --> 03:04:21,240
out and you're in, you're in the
principal.

2965
03:04:21,960 --> 03:04:24,800
It's right.
There are definitely groups that

2966
03:04:24,800 --> 03:04:27,800
do arrange marriage for sure.
But like that's how that works.

2967
03:04:27,800 --> 03:04:30,520
It's not like you're just going
to walk in and be a polygamist.

2968
03:04:31,240 --> 03:04:33,880
But then.
Hold, hold, hold it, hold it,

2969
03:04:33,880 --> 03:04:36,360
hold up.
When he accuses you of being a

2970
03:04:36,360 --> 03:04:39,400
pedophile, explain to me the
words he uses to do that.

2971
03:04:39,400 --> 03:04:41,720
Yes.
So yeah, I want to be clear,

2972
03:04:41,720 --> 03:04:45,200
it's not a direct accusation.
However, it's this vague dance

2973
03:04:45,200 --> 03:04:50,040
around with language.
So he he says to me, and this is

2974
03:04:50,320 --> 03:04:52,800
shortly after the question, are
you a polygamist?

2975
03:04:52,800 --> 03:04:56,160
I said, no, of course not, you
know that I'm not married.

2976
03:04:57,040 --> 03:05:04,480
And he says, are you aware that
you will likely, that you will

2977
03:05:04,480 --> 03:05:13,960
likely face prison time when you
engage in marriage to minors,

2978
03:05:15,400 --> 03:05:18,440
when you marry someone under the
age of 18?

2979
03:05:22,960 --> 03:05:34,960
I said, you know me.
You know, I have not an ounce of

2980
03:05:34,960 --> 03:05:37,400
sin or like, I mean, I'm a
Sinner, right?

2981
03:05:37,400 --> 03:05:44,120
Like I'm, I do things I have no,
I have no desire in my heart to

2982
03:05:44,440 --> 03:05:46,000
to hurt one of the children of
God.

2983
03:05:46,000 --> 03:05:49,720
Like whosoever offends one of
these children of mine better

2984
03:05:49,720 --> 03:05:53,360
than the, you know, a chains put
around his neck right and thrown

2985
03:05:53,360 --> 03:05:56,840
into the river.
I I'm not you know that you, you

2986
03:05:56,840 --> 03:06:00,920
know, you know me.
You know that I stood in front

2987
03:06:00,920 --> 03:06:03,560
of that state conference and
bore my heart out.

2988
03:06:04,280 --> 03:06:07,040
You know my love for Jesus.
And you know that people who

2989
03:06:07,040 --> 03:06:08,600
truly love Jesus would never do
that.

2990
03:06:12,400 --> 03:06:16,000
And you, you don't know a thing
about fundamentalism if you

2991
03:06:16,000 --> 03:06:20,760
think that the only people that
enter into this are perverts.

2992
03:06:21,800 --> 03:06:24,640
I have a lot to say about men
like Warren Jeffs, and they're

2993
03:06:24,640 --> 03:06:26,400
going to burn in hell.
That's what's going to happen to

2994
03:06:26,400 --> 03:06:29,400
them.
But don't you dare for a second.

2995
03:06:29,400 --> 03:06:37,560
Associate men who believe this
principle have any desire to do

2996
03:06:37,560 --> 03:06:40,320
that.
There are many good men here.

2997
03:06:40,760 --> 03:06:43,680
And fundamentalists are not the
FLDS Church.

2998
03:06:45,520 --> 03:06:47,920
They are a perversion of
fundamentalism.

2999
03:06:48,680 --> 03:06:53,080
They are what happens when the
priesthood head gives

3000
03:06:53,080 --> 03:06:56,240
instruction.
Don't you marry underage girls?

3001
03:06:56,480 --> 03:06:58,760
And they say, no, we want to do
it anyway and we're going to go

3002
03:06:58,760 --> 03:07:02,320
off and do our own thing.
That's what happens.

3003
03:07:02,480 --> 03:07:04,400
That was rebellion against the
priesthood.

3004
03:07:06,760 --> 03:07:15,160
You know, believe it or not, OK,
full, Full disclosure, you and I

3005
03:07:15,160 --> 03:07:17,920
have been talking for probably
what, 3 months off and on, yeah,

3006
03:07:18,360 --> 03:07:20,600
somewhere just checking in with
each other, seeing how each

3007
03:07:20,600 --> 03:07:22,880
other are.
And I've I've come to know you

3008
03:07:22,880 --> 03:07:24,440
fairly well.
Yeah.

3009
03:07:25,600 --> 03:07:30,400
And the fact he he levels that
is asinine.

3010
03:07:32,000 --> 03:07:38,360
And look, I have been very,
very, very generous to the LDS

3011
03:07:38,360 --> 03:07:44,120
church to this point, but it's
getting on damn past time that

3012
03:07:44,120 --> 03:07:46,560
they get they pull their head
out.

3013
03:07:47,080 --> 03:07:50,080
And if you don't know, I don't
know who your state president is

3014
03:07:50,880 --> 03:07:54,600
or was.
But if you don't know, son, it's

3015
03:07:54,600 --> 03:07:57,760
time to pull your head out and
honestly take a look around at a

3016
03:07:57,760 --> 03:08:03,040
whole group of people you care
to demonize, you ignorant SOB.

3017
03:08:03,480 --> 03:08:12,280
Holy cow.
All right, so from there, is

3018
03:08:12,280 --> 03:08:14,360
there anything else in this that
you that you want to say?

3019
03:08:14,360 --> 03:08:17,000
I am sorry you had to relive
that, and I'm sorry I asked the

3020
03:08:17,000 --> 03:08:18,360
question.
And.

3021
03:08:18,520 --> 03:08:21,600
If you want I, I will.
I will edit that out if you want

3022
03:08:21,600 --> 03:08:24,120
me to.
No, this, this needs to be

3023
03:08:24,120 --> 03:08:26,480
known.
I mean, not in the sense that I

3024
03:08:26,480 --> 03:08:29,760
want people to feel bad, but I,
I want people to know that this

3025
03:08:29,760 --> 03:08:35,000
is not who we are.
I, I know there are plenty of

3026
03:08:35,000 --> 03:08:36,800
fundamentals that want to live
in the shadows and they've been

3027
03:08:36,800 --> 03:08:39,840
relegated at the shadows by an
organization by or by the

3028
03:08:39,840 --> 03:08:43,600
government and by the
organization that that

3029
03:08:43,600 --> 03:08:46,320
excommunicated me.
They've been relegated to that

3030
03:08:46,440 --> 03:08:49,200
and forced to live in hiding and
had families torn apart.

3031
03:08:49,920 --> 03:08:53,760
I want the world to know that
these, these people that have

3032
03:08:53,760 --> 03:09:00,080
suffered are not wicked, they're
not evil, they're good, they're

3033
03:09:00,240 --> 03:09:03,200
desperately good.
And they, it is time for us to

3034
03:09:03,200 --> 03:09:06,360
step out of the shadows and, and
say something and, and not let

3035
03:09:06,360 --> 03:09:07,920
people believe that that's what
we are.

3036
03:09:08,840 --> 03:09:11,040
And the world needs to know that
that's not who we are.

3037
03:09:11,040 --> 03:09:15,040
And that if you, if you think
that way, you need to repent,

3038
03:09:15,520 --> 03:09:19,920
you need to come unto Christ and
he will show you by his power

3039
03:09:20,920 --> 03:09:24,160
who we are.
And so that's fine to be

3040
03:09:24,160 --> 03:09:32,080
included, not as a denigration
on the church, but as a means of

3041
03:09:32,080 --> 03:09:35,840
calling it back.
Yet even this day, remember Joel

3042
03:09:35,840 --> 03:09:37,440
chapter 2.
Yet even this day you can

3043
03:09:37,440 --> 03:09:41,640
return.
The mistakes of our past don't

3044
03:09:41,640 --> 03:09:47,760
have to define us.
And so I want I want the church

3045
03:09:48,000 --> 03:09:50,160
to repent.
And gosh, people are going to

3046
03:09:50,160 --> 03:09:52,520
call me prideful for calling the
church to repentance, but I

3047
03:09:52,520 --> 03:09:56,160
don't care.
I need to repent.

3048
03:09:56,440 --> 03:09:58,880
You need to repent.
The church needs everybody has

3049
03:09:58,880 --> 03:10:00,240
to repent.
It's just life.

3050
03:10:00,840 --> 03:10:03,200
You know, there's nothing wrong
with calling repentance.

3051
03:10:03,640 --> 03:10:06,040
The Lord says the doctor comes
preach nothing but repentance to

3052
03:10:06,040 --> 03:10:10,440
this generation.
And they have done some wicked

3053
03:10:10,440 --> 03:10:11,960
things and made wicked
accusations.

3054
03:10:11,960 --> 03:10:13,480
They've made wicked accusations
of me.

3055
03:10:13,800 --> 03:10:16,520
That was the most disastrous.
Vile.

3056
03:10:17,120 --> 03:10:23,040
Yeah, most vile, vile
accusations ever been hurled at

3057
03:10:23,040 --> 03:10:29,760
me.
And and I, I want that to be

3058
03:10:29,760 --> 03:10:32,440
corrected.
And but anyway, from there, like

3059
03:10:32,440 --> 03:10:35,200
in that trial, that was about
the end of it.

3060
03:10:35,480 --> 03:10:40,480
I mean, they said we're going
to, we're going to pray and

3061
03:10:40,480 --> 03:10:42,960
we're going to decide.
The problem was it's already

3062
03:10:42,960 --> 03:10:47,200
been decided.
I, I guess this is, this is

3063
03:10:47,200 --> 03:10:48,760
important to add.
So I will mention this.

3064
03:10:48,760 --> 03:10:51,520
So they, we're going to pray and
we're going to decide.

3065
03:10:52,320 --> 03:10:56,240
And This is why I don't, I don't
believe that.

3066
03:10:56,840 --> 03:10:59,320
I don't believe the state
president received inspiration

3067
03:10:59,440 --> 03:11:02,040
when he excommunicated me.
Not because I'm prideful and

3068
03:11:02,040 --> 03:11:04,840
because I don't think I deserve,
you know, I'm, I'm too prideful

3069
03:11:04,840 --> 03:11:06,520
to know that I should have been
excommunicated.

3070
03:11:06,800 --> 03:11:10,000
No, it's because if the
decision's already made before

3071
03:11:10,000 --> 03:11:13,440
the prayer begins for decision
time, then it's not you weren't

3072
03:11:13,440 --> 03:11:14,920
inspired.
You already had your you were

3073
03:11:14,920 --> 03:11:20,160
told by handbook what to do.
That being said, they pray.

3074
03:11:20,160 --> 03:11:23,760
I go out in the hallway.
I just, I, my Bishop went out

3075
03:11:23,760 --> 03:11:26,680
with me and I fell into his arms
and I just bawled.

3076
03:11:27,080 --> 03:11:30,000
Like imagine that you hear those
thought those things coming at

3077
03:11:30,000 --> 03:11:41,400
you and and I just sat there and
took it that entire time, even

3078
03:11:41,400 --> 03:11:43,040
after burying my soul, my
testimony.

3079
03:11:43,680 --> 03:11:47,760
How long were you in the hall?
About 5 minutes.

3080
03:11:48,360 --> 03:11:51,240
Yeah, this.
Look, anybody who says it's a

3081
03:11:51,240 --> 03:11:54,040
discipline hearing or a
discipline court, you're full of

3082
03:11:54,040 --> 03:11:56,760
crap.
This thing is decided long

3083
03:11:56,760 --> 03:12:01,240
before the trial is held.
The word trial isn't is a damn

3084
03:12:01,240 --> 03:12:03,040
lie to be used.
It's a lie.

3085
03:12:03,720 --> 03:12:07,000
This it was scheduled for 8:30
PM as if, you know, it's the end

3086
03:12:07,000 --> 03:12:08,480
of the day.
It's going to be really quick in

3087
03:12:08,480 --> 03:12:11,000
and out, easy.
No, it's not a trial.

3088
03:12:11,240 --> 03:12:15,280
You know, trials look at facts.
They they determine the truth

3089
03:12:15,280 --> 03:12:17,760
and they seek the truth and they
follow it.

3090
03:12:18,040 --> 03:12:20,600
They don't determine what
someone's told them to do

3091
03:12:21,280 --> 03:12:25,960
beforehand.
So anyway, yeah, I just bought.

3092
03:12:25,960 --> 03:12:28,000
I mean, I, I sort of think I
bore my testimony.

3093
03:12:28,000 --> 03:12:30,120
I wanted it clear.
Look, I love the church.

3094
03:12:32,040 --> 03:12:34,640
I believe, at least in some way,
that Russell Nelson has received

3095
03:12:34,640 --> 03:12:37,720
a calling from the Lord that he
is in that spot for a reason.

3096
03:12:38,040 --> 03:12:39,280
Do I believe he has all the
keys?

3097
03:12:39,280 --> 03:12:41,800
Absolutely not.
That doesn't mean I don't think

3098
03:12:41,800 --> 03:12:44,040
he has some keys and he's not
doing good for the church.

3099
03:12:44,040 --> 03:12:46,040
And then he's that Lord wants
him there.

3100
03:12:46,840 --> 03:12:48,520
I bore my testimony.
I bore my testimony.

3101
03:12:48,520 --> 03:12:49,800
The first principles and
ordinances.

3102
03:12:50,120 --> 03:12:52,560
OK, Because fun people think
fundamentalists are all about

3103
03:12:52,560 --> 03:12:54,880
plural marriage and not order.
We love those things.

3104
03:12:54,880 --> 03:12:57,280
They're true doctrines, right?
We also love the first

3105
03:12:57,280 --> 03:12:59,040
principles and ordinances.
I love baptism.

3106
03:12:59,920 --> 03:13:03,920
That was one of the first things
the first 70 in a in a

3107
03:13:04,120 --> 03:13:06,480
fundamentalist movement I talked
to said before I talk to you

3108
03:13:06,480 --> 03:13:09,280
about any of this other stuff,
know this.

3109
03:13:09,440 --> 03:13:12,520
First off, you got to get the
Spirit of God so strongly within

3110
03:13:12,520 --> 03:13:16,120
you to every movement you make
is dictated by his will.

3111
03:13:16,680 --> 03:13:19,280
Second, you've got to master the
art of the Sermon on the Mount.

3112
03:13:19,920 --> 03:13:21,880
Like if those aren't your
foundations, then none of this

3113
03:13:21,880 --> 03:13:23,280
other stuff matters.
I'm not going to talk to you

3114
03:13:23,280 --> 03:13:26,520
about it.
So we spent quite a bit of time

3115
03:13:26,520 --> 03:13:28,560
talking about that before we
even talked about other stuff in

3116
03:13:28,560 --> 03:13:31,320
the fullness.
But anyway, so so we go out

3117
03:13:31,320 --> 03:13:34,560
there and we pray and I'd bore
my testimony about all those

3118
03:13:34,560 --> 03:13:37,880
things also bore my testimony of
the principal and and united

3119
03:13:37,880 --> 03:13:40,880
order and didn't emphasize the
principle at all.

3120
03:13:40,880 --> 03:13:57,320
But anyway, weeping heat, they
call us back in and state

3121
03:13:57,320 --> 03:14:02,320
president said in all my years I
have been through many

3122
03:14:04,280 --> 03:14:08,440
membership trials,
excommunications and until this

3123
03:14:08,440 --> 03:14:13,960
time I have never been more sure
that someone needs to be

3124
03:14:13,960 --> 03:14:21,120
excommunicated as in your case.
Yeah, a man who literally before

3125
03:14:21,320 --> 03:14:23,000
begged them to stay in the
church.

3126
03:14:23,000 --> 03:14:25,920
Please don't take me away.
I would not said a word to any

3127
03:14:25,920 --> 03:14:29,000
member of my war to my stake.
I will not say a word to my

3128
03:14:29,000 --> 03:14:31,680
stake.
I made that promise and they

3129
03:14:31,680 --> 03:14:34,880
even recognized you've been very
good at not saying anything.

3130
03:14:35,160 --> 03:14:38,360
I, I, they said that I've never
been more sure, he said.

3131
03:14:38,360 --> 03:14:40,840
I'm happy to say that you are no
longer a member of the church in

3132
03:14:40,880 --> 03:14:43,280
Jesus Christ.
He said he was happy.

3133
03:14:43,920 --> 03:14:47,120
Yeah, he said.
Because this, he said this is

3134
03:14:47,120 --> 03:14:48,720
going to tear you apart.
Is this.

3135
03:14:50,080 --> 03:15:07,840
And yeah, I gave up everything.
So much for the church, the

3136
03:15:07,840 --> 03:15:10,040
Church of God.
It's true.

3137
03:15:11,360 --> 03:15:18,760
That church is true.
And here I am, never been more

3138
03:15:18,760 --> 03:15:23,800
sure that I needed to be cut off
and amputation needs to happen.

3139
03:15:26,480 --> 03:15:30,360
We don't need you, the hand says
to the foot.

3140
03:15:30,360 --> 03:15:32,560
I don't have any need of you.
Let's cut you off.

3141
03:15:36,240 --> 03:15:39,320
That's all I am is I'm a foot.
I'm a, I'm a, I'm a stinky

3142
03:15:39,320 --> 03:15:41,240
little thing.
I'm a, I'm a Sinner.

3143
03:15:41,240 --> 03:15:46,440
I'm not much of anything.
I'm small fish in big waters.

3144
03:15:50,880 --> 03:15:55,200
But it wasn't needful for me
anymore to be part of the body.

3145
03:16:01,240 --> 03:16:15,080
Bro, it's powerful as I sit here
and I I listen to this now is

3146
03:16:15,080 --> 03:16:22,120
when when I'm going to go here.
Well, First off, before I do

3147
03:16:22,120 --> 03:16:28,480
that, I wanted to spell a myth,
and that's this.

3148
03:16:30,920 --> 03:16:33,720
Braxton, do you feel like you've
lost communion with the Holy

3149
03:16:33,720 --> 03:16:39,360
Ghost?
My friend, I was told to destroy

3150
03:16:39,880 --> 03:16:42,680
my garments that day.
I've not done that.

3151
03:16:44,560 --> 03:16:47,520
I was told that I had no right
to the priesthood.

3152
03:16:48,960 --> 03:16:54,920
I've not lost that.
I was told I had no communion.

3153
03:16:55,880 --> 03:17:00,360
Yeah, that somehow I woke up
that next day with the Spirit of

3154
03:17:00,360 --> 03:17:06,320
God like a fire burning within
me, there to console me, to tell

3155
03:17:06,320 --> 03:17:07,560
me everything was going to be
all right.

3156
03:17:09,120 --> 03:17:12,560
So no.
You know what they really did?

3157
03:17:14,800 --> 03:17:16,880
They set you free.
Yeah.

3158
03:17:18,280 --> 03:17:22,120
Look, this is such a stupid
analogy at this point, but I

3159
03:17:22,120 --> 03:17:28,440
don't have a better one.
There's an episode in Star Wars

3160
03:17:28,440 --> 03:17:34,120
where the old guy gets, gets
killed by, by, by Darth Darth

3161
03:17:34,120 --> 03:17:36,520
Vader, right?
And he says something to him

3162
03:17:36,520 --> 03:17:40,000
before he, before he kills him.
The old man looks at him and

3163
03:17:40,000 --> 03:17:43,920
says, if you kill me, if you
strike me down, I'll become more

3164
03:17:43,920 --> 03:17:50,040
powerful now than you know.
And Braxton, all they've done,

3165
03:17:51,400 --> 03:17:54,800
it's just made you more powerful
'cause now you can shout from

3166
03:17:54,800 --> 03:17:59,880
the rooftops.
And here's what I've discovered.

3167
03:18:02,040 --> 03:18:04,920
We are the worst kind of
apostate to them.

3168
03:18:06,440 --> 03:18:08,960
Why?
Because we're not saying we

3169
03:18:08,960 --> 03:18:12,720
don't believe anymore.
We're saying we believe all the

3170
03:18:12,720 --> 03:18:16,320
things that Joseph and Brigham
and John Taylor talked about,

3171
03:18:16,920 --> 03:18:23,520
unfettered, Unchained.
And also people feel the spirit

3172
03:18:23,880 --> 03:18:27,040
when you talk and you talk to
him about those things.

3173
03:18:28,040 --> 03:18:31,720
That's troublesome to an
organization that quite frankly

3174
03:18:31,720 --> 03:18:38,280
is OK.
I want to run down this way real

3175
03:18:38,280 --> 03:18:43,720
quick before we move on here.
Early on you said when when we

3176
03:18:43,720 --> 03:18:49,840
were talking about your talk in
in that state conference, you

3177
03:18:49,840 --> 03:18:53,440
had said I didn't teach any
fundamentalist doctrine.

3178
03:18:54,800 --> 03:18:57,560
You did not.
You taught took that stuff

3179
03:18:57,560 --> 03:18:59,320
straight from the Doctrine and
Covenants.

3180
03:19:00,640 --> 03:19:03,120
But nonetheless, you know what
fundamentalist doctrine really

3181
03:19:03,120 --> 03:19:05,640
is?
Plural marriage, United order,

3182
03:19:06,480 --> 03:19:08,080
Adam, God, you know what all
that is?

3183
03:19:08,520 --> 03:19:12,960
That's original Mormon doctrine.
And I think what maybe instead

3184
03:19:12,960 --> 03:19:15,280
of calling it fundamentalist
doctrine, we should just start

3185
03:19:15,280 --> 03:19:17,240
calling it original Mormon
doctrine.

3186
03:19:18,120 --> 03:19:21,840
Amen.
Next, you didn't ever teach

3187
03:19:21,840 --> 03:19:25,480
anybody in the church about that
original doctrine.

3188
03:19:26,000 --> 03:19:29,120
You expressed that you were
careful on who you talk to

3189
03:19:29,400 --> 03:19:31,920
because you didn't want to
damage people, right?

3190
03:19:31,920 --> 03:19:34,480
You didn't want to give someone
more than they were ready for.

3191
03:19:37,760 --> 03:19:41,080
And so you weren't living any of
those principles.

3192
03:19:41,080 --> 03:19:44,440
You weren't living United Order.
You weren't living in a plural

3193
03:19:44,440 --> 03:19:46,920
marriage.
So what was your crime?

3194
03:19:47,960 --> 03:19:53,880
Your crime was two things.
It was incorrect thought.

3195
03:19:54,080 --> 03:19:57,720
Now just think about this
incorrect thought.

3196
03:19:59,160 --> 03:20:02,080
And then believing that there
were keys outside the church,

3197
03:20:02,080 --> 03:20:03,760
you threaten the power
structure.

3198
03:20:03,760 --> 03:20:09,680
Yes, you threatened their
monopoly on power, and that's

3199
03:20:09,680 --> 03:20:13,160
worrisome.
Those were the two things that

3200
03:20:13,160 --> 03:20:16,440
they were most concerned about.
Did your testimony of Jesus ever

3201
03:20:16,440 --> 03:20:20,360
come up in in your
excommunication trial?

3202
03:20:21,000 --> 03:20:23,800
Because I brought it up.
I bore.

3203
03:20:23,800 --> 03:20:26,160
My I bore my testimony of the
Christ.

3204
03:20:26,160 --> 03:20:29,480
They never said Braxton, tell me
about your testimony of Jesus

3205
03:20:29,480 --> 03:20:31,240
Christ.
No, they wanted to know what I

3206
03:20:31,240 --> 03:20:32,480
thought about Russell and
Nelson.

3207
03:20:33,360 --> 03:20:35,600
Want to know how a priesthood
got outside of the church.

3208
03:20:35,680 --> 03:20:36,480
Yeah.
Yeah.

3209
03:20:36,480 --> 03:20:38,560
Are we starting to see a
dichotomy here, folks?

3210
03:20:38,800 --> 03:20:44,960
OK, next, did they ask you about
your testimony of Joseph Smith

3211
03:20:44,960 --> 03:20:47,840
as a prophet and a seer and a
restorer of of ancient

3212
03:20:47,840 --> 03:20:50,640
Christianity?
No, I brought it up.

3213
03:20:51,320 --> 03:20:55,200
Not until you brought it up.
The only person they asked you

3214
03:20:55,200 --> 03:20:57,400
about in there was Russell M
Nelson.

3215
03:20:58,160 --> 03:21:04,880
Yes, Sir.
It's pretty telling when the

3216
03:21:04,880 --> 03:21:08,840
major crime is that you didn't.
You're going to love this.

3217
03:21:09,320 --> 03:21:12,520
Your major crime was you refuse
to put your arm, your trust in

3218
03:21:12,520 --> 03:21:16,680
the arm of flesh.
You said I'll roll with, with,

3219
03:21:16,880 --> 03:21:20,880
with those who know more, and
I'll roll with God.

3220
03:21:21,440 --> 03:21:22,800
I'm going to be with the
fundamentalist.

3221
03:21:22,840 --> 03:21:25,600
I'm I'm going to go with God,
right?

3222
03:21:25,640 --> 03:21:27,880
Exactly.
That was the crime.

3223
03:21:28,520 --> 03:21:32,680
Yeah.
Now to your stake president who

3224
03:21:33,000 --> 03:21:37,560
who said you were going to you
were or are going to be a

3225
03:21:37,560 --> 03:21:40,800
pedophile, I take exception with
that.

3226
03:21:42,400 --> 03:21:50,400
And I don't know, you want to
talk about slanderous

3227
03:21:50,400 --> 03:21:57,600
allegations.
It's it's pretty messed up on a

3228
03:21:57,600 --> 03:22:00,720
couple different levels.
And I'm not done here with this,

3229
03:22:00,720 --> 03:22:02,040
but I'm going to save it to the
end.

3230
03:22:04,040 --> 03:22:07,000
So if I remember correctly,
Braxton, yes, Sir.

3231
03:22:07,760 --> 03:22:11,480
When when you and I talked right
after this happened, you were

3232
03:22:11,480 --> 03:22:16,080
excommunicated about two weeks
from a pretty important event

3233
03:22:16,080 --> 03:22:18,360
that happened within the church
and fundamentalism, right?

3234
03:22:19,080 --> 03:22:20,560
Yeah, two or three weeks I
reckon.

3235
03:22:21,520 --> 03:22:26,000
Right, because just two or three
weeks later, the 1886 Revelation

3236
03:22:26,000 --> 03:22:28,680
drops.
The same revelation that I read.

3237
03:22:31,960 --> 03:22:36,720
Any, any call from the state
president, any emails, no,

3238
03:22:36,800 --> 03:22:39,520
anything like that.
I didn't hear anything.

3239
03:22:40,040 --> 03:22:43,800
So I I made the decision.
I thought, OK, maybe this is my

3240
03:22:43,800 --> 03:22:46,320
chance.
Maybe this is this is the way.

3241
03:22:46,400 --> 03:22:51,720
And so I, I, I created a group
message to my Bishop and my

3242
03:22:51,720 --> 03:22:55,000
state president.
I said, look, I'm, I'm really

3243
03:22:55,000 --> 03:22:56,840
happy today.
I'm going to be honest with you.

3244
03:22:57,440 --> 03:22:59,960
I'm rejoicing today as I know
the football.

3245
03:23:01,200 --> 03:23:03,880
Yeah, like I'm, I'm, I'm
rejoicing.

3246
03:23:03,920 --> 03:23:07,600
And and you know, and I, I meant
that in all seriousness, like I

3247
03:23:07,600 --> 03:23:10,320
was so happy.
I was devastated when I first

3248
03:23:10,320 --> 03:23:13,120
heard about it, but I was so
happy that maybe this is my

3249
03:23:13,120 --> 03:23:15,760
chance.
And so I wrote this message.

3250
03:23:15,760 --> 03:23:19,280
I said I'm rejoicing.
That revelation that I read to

3251
03:23:19,280 --> 03:23:23,560
you, the 1886 revelation, which
the church has said for over 100

3252
03:23:23,560 --> 03:23:25,600
years, is not a revelation, is
not real.

3253
03:23:26,120 --> 03:23:31,960
They finally acknowledged it.
And again, right, like, OK, it

3254
03:23:31,960 --> 03:23:33,760
was the church History Archives,
whatever.

3255
03:23:33,920 --> 03:23:36,560
It's the church.
I don't care what anybody has to

3256
03:23:36,560 --> 03:23:39,720
say.
I know that Church History

3257
03:23:39,720 --> 03:23:42,080
Archives released it.
That's an organization of the

3258
03:23:42,080 --> 03:23:43,440
church.
Whatever.

3259
03:23:45,120 --> 03:23:47,560
Even if there's a certain
distinction with hierarchy, it's

3260
03:23:47,560 --> 03:23:49,800
still part of intellectual
reserve.

3261
03:23:49,920 --> 03:23:51,480
Whatever.
They released it.

3262
03:23:52,360 --> 03:23:56,800
So you can read the document
here it is in the handwriting.

3263
03:23:56,880 --> 03:23:58,840
In the handwriting.
You can look at it.

3264
03:23:59,600 --> 03:24:02,600
You can see this.
Like I wasn't lying to you.

3265
03:24:06,960 --> 03:24:10,120
And so I sent that off just
waiting.

3266
03:24:10,120 --> 03:24:11,320
I didn't know how long it was
going to be.

3267
03:24:11,320 --> 03:24:24,390
This was on a Sunday and I was
at the Ericsson's house for

3268
03:24:24,390 --> 03:24:28,630
sacrament meeting that day.
Shout out to the Ericsson, some

3269
03:24:28,630 --> 03:24:31,910
extremely good folks.
Good folks, good folks visiting

3270
03:24:31,910 --> 03:24:39,630
them and I got a text back from
my state president and he said

3271
03:24:42,510 --> 03:24:44,150
it's good to hear from you,
Braxton.

3272
03:24:44,430 --> 03:24:47,840
I hope you're doing well.
My name was misspelled.

3273
03:24:50,880 --> 03:24:51,840
Yeah.
And that's all.

3274
03:24:51,840 --> 03:24:53,840
There was no acknowledgement of
what I'd sent them.

3275
03:24:58,440 --> 03:25:03,200
It was literally just.
I'm going to ignore everything

3276
03:25:03,200 --> 03:25:07,000
you just said to me and say just
choose the High Road and say I

3277
03:25:07,000 --> 03:25:10,360
hope you're doing well.
You know, like you didn't even

3278
03:25:10,360 --> 03:25:11,680
open the link.
I know you didn't.

3279
03:25:12,080 --> 03:25:13,600
Maybe you did.
I don't want to be and

3280
03:25:13,600 --> 03:25:17,720
charitable, but part of me, a
big part of me say you'd never

3281
03:25:17,720 --> 03:25:19,560
opened it.
I'm like, I sent you a link to

3282
03:25:19,560 --> 03:25:21,480
the church website.
It's not like I'm sending you

3283
03:25:21,960 --> 03:25:25,000
some anti fundamental, like some
fundamentalist anti church

3284
03:25:25,000 --> 03:25:28,920
material, right, because I don't
have any anti church material.

3285
03:25:31,040 --> 03:25:38,240
And, and that's all that I got.
And I, I really wanted to, to

3286
03:25:38,240 --> 03:25:41,360
say something like you couldn't
just open the link and say, or

3287
03:25:41,360 --> 03:25:44,400
you couldn't even just say, Hey,
thanks for sharing this with me.

3288
03:25:44,600 --> 03:25:46,520
Have a nice day.
Like you could have done that,

3289
03:25:46,520 --> 03:25:48,360
that could have been, and that
would have been more than

3290
03:25:48,360 --> 03:25:50,960
satisfying to me.
If you just wanted to leave and

3291
03:25:51,080 --> 03:25:54,640
leave that and never talk to me
again, fine.

3292
03:25:55,120 --> 03:25:58,440
But you had to, you had to do
that to me, just write a

3293
03:25:58,440 --> 03:26:00,160
message, totally ignoring
everything.

3294
03:26:00,400 --> 03:26:03,240
And I was so angry and I wanted
to say something, but I

3295
03:26:03,240 --> 03:26:06,960
remembered that that piece of
advice that I'd received from

3296
03:26:06,960 --> 03:26:10,920
someone that said do not give
them a reason to believe that

3297
03:26:10,920 --> 03:26:16,320
you've lost the Spirit of God.
And so I said, OK, said I'm

3298
03:26:16,320 --> 03:26:18,480
doing well.
I woke up with the Spirit of God

3299
03:26:18,480 --> 03:26:21,040
this morning and I have a love
for my Savior.

3300
03:26:21,120 --> 03:26:25,680
And that was it.
And that's the last I've heard

3301
03:26:25,680 --> 03:26:33,400
from them.
How's life been for you now on

3302
03:26:33,400 --> 03:26:36,760
the outside, so to speak?
It's been really good.

3303
03:26:39,200 --> 03:26:43,960
I still have my days.
Some days are angry because of

3304
03:26:43,960 --> 03:26:46,480
what's happened.
Some days are so sad because,

3305
03:26:48,680 --> 03:26:52,720
you know, you think about, if
you're familiar with people that

3306
03:26:53,240 --> 03:26:55,320
get amputations, they'll talk
about how they still have those

3307
03:26:55,320 --> 03:27:00,560
phantom pains, right?
They can still feel and those

3308
03:27:00,560 --> 03:27:03,760
phantom pains are real, like,
and I'm not, I'm not, I'm an

3309
03:27:03,760 --> 03:27:05,800
amputee.
I'm a spiritual amputee, right?

3310
03:27:05,800 --> 03:27:09,360
Like I've been, I've been cut
off from my body.

3311
03:27:11,000 --> 03:27:13,600
I'm the limp, I'm the limb
that's supposed to be decaying.

3312
03:27:14,640 --> 03:27:17,000
But so I can feel that pain
sometimes that I can feel where

3313
03:27:17,000 --> 03:27:19,440
the body once was and I really
desperately want to be a part of

3314
03:27:19,440 --> 03:27:22,200
it.
So that happened some days, and

3315
03:27:22,200 --> 03:27:25,240
then other days I'm so good
because I have the Spirit of God

3316
03:27:25,240 --> 03:27:27,720
and I read the scriptures, and
scriptures open up to me in ways

3317
03:27:27,720 --> 03:27:30,080
that I've never seen them
before, and I've gotten to learn

3318
03:27:30,080 --> 03:27:33,120
so much, right?
Just since you're

3319
03:27:33,120 --> 03:27:35,680
excommunication.
Yeah, yeah.

3320
03:27:35,680 --> 03:27:40,160
I felt so much more in tune
seeing the scriptures in new

3321
03:27:40,160 --> 03:27:48,440
ways, learning about the Hebrew
roots of, of our faith and, and

3322
03:27:48,440 --> 03:27:52,360
getting to celebrate some of
those original feasts that the

3323
03:27:52,360 --> 03:27:58,920
Lord has has given us and, and,
and communing with people who

3324
03:27:58,920 --> 03:28:03,160
truly care and who try their
best to keep the doctrine.

3325
03:28:03,440 --> 03:28:08,760
But also people who are so not
arrogant and so not proud that I

3326
03:28:08,760 --> 03:28:13,480
could stand up in their midst
and say, I disagree with you.

3327
03:28:14,040 --> 03:28:17,520
You're wrong even to the key
holder of that respective group,

3328
03:28:17,520 --> 03:28:20,360
for example, right, Whatever
group, wherever you are in

3329
03:28:20,360 --> 03:28:22,760
fundamentalism.
I mean, I know they're probably

3330
03:28:22,760 --> 03:28:25,280
exceptions, but for the most
part, the people that I've met,

3331
03:28:25,640 --> 03:28:29,160
you can do that and nobody
cares, right?

3332
03:28:29,240 --> 03:28:31,800
It's.
That for us, that's Mormonism's

3333
03:28:31,800 --> 03:28:34,080
pastime, right?
I mean, if we're not in a heated

3334
03:28:34,080 --> 03:28:38,280
debate, dude, just this weekend,
dude, I love like a brother.

3335
03:28:38,280 --> 03:28:42,520
I'd ride or die with that guy.
We got into a good sized debate

3336
03:28:42,520 --> 03:28:44,480
over what's a certain scripture
meant.

3337
03:28:44,480 --> 03:28:46,320
You know what?
We hugged it out at the end of

3338
03:28:46,320 --> 03:28:48,840
the night, told each other we
loved them, and off we go.

3339
03:28:49,360 --> 03:28:53,680
Exactly, exactly.
It it, it literally happens.

3340
03:28:53,680 --> 03:28:57,600
Like you'll sit in like a, a
fundy elders quorum meeting and

3341
03:28:57,600 --> 03:28:59,680
like, you know, they're going to
talk about certain scripture and

3342
03:28:59,680 --> 03:29:01,320
they're like someone says
something like, no, you're

3343
03:29:01,320 --> 03:29:02,880
wrong.
The other person does right.

3344
03:29:02,880 --> 03:29:08,840
They're like, no, you're wrong,
you know, and it's just such

3345
03:29:08,840 --> 03:29:11,320
another way of being.
And it's funny, right?

3346
03:29:11,320 --> 03:29:14,720
Like I was told and I defended
that the church wasn't a cult

3347
03:29:14,720 --> 03:29:16,320
for so long.
And I'm not saying that the

3348
03:29:16,360 --> 03:29:18,400
church is a cult.
I don't want to, I don't want

3349
03:29:18,400 --> 03:29:20,560
people to think that, but right.
But then, like, I go to

3350
03:29:20,560 --> 03:29:22,960
fundamentalism, which everyone
in the church and most other

3351
03:29:22,960 --> 03:29:26,840
people in the world say is
cultish, and they're just like,

3352
03:29:27,160 --> 03:29:28,560
oh, yeah, you can disagree.
Whatever.

3353
03:29:28,840 --> 03:29:30,640
We don't care.
Oh yeah, you don't want to do

3354
03:29:30,640 --> 03:29:31,600
that.
Don't do it.

3355
03:29:32,640 --> 03:29:36,520
Yeah, if if they're a cult, they
really suck at their job, right?

3356
03:29:36,520 --> 03:29:39,920
I mean, so that that's just the
truth of it right?

3357
03:29:40,120 --> 03:29:44,080
Now you want to talk about culty
crap, let's talk about.

3358
03:29:44,360 --> 03:29:47,880
Well, I, you know, I'm not a
Mormon anymore.

3359
03:29:47,880 --> 03:29:50,760
I'm a I'm a member of the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter Day

3360
03:29:50,760 --> 03:29:52,920
Saints.
Wait, wait a second.

3361
03:29:52,960 --> 03:29:56,360
But 15 minutes ago we did the
I'm a Mormon campaign.

3362
03:29:56,360 --> 03:29:58,680
Yeah.
No, this is the 1984 new speak

3363
03:29:58,680 --> 03:30:00,200
now.
So you just go with that.

3364
03:30:00,800 --> 03:30:04,920
Exactly, It's so true, right.
It's it's interesting.

3365
03:30:05,320 --> 03:30:08,560
There's a little bit more of a
of a control and and I think

3366
03:30:08,560 --> 03:30:11,480
that's what happened is when you
get when you abandon the higher

3367
03:30:11,480 --> 03:30:13,440
laws and you're confined to the
lower laws, right.

3368
03:30:13,760 --> 03:30:18,240
Like DNC 84 talks about where
Moses yeah, exactly.

3369
03:30:18,240 --> 03:30:20,600
You heresies come in amongst
you.

3370
03:30:22,280 --> 03:30:27,200
You're given that a stricture
law of, of, of ordinances and

3371
03:30:27,200 --> 03:30:29,920
obedience to those like a
certain way of doing things.

3372
03:30:29,920 --> 03:30:34,760
So they're stuck in in these
traditions of men that are

3373
03:30:34,760 --> 03:30:40,880
modern, right?
That's the that's what's binding

3374
03:30:40,880 --> 03:30:45,040
them down and and then they
built up for them this them,

3375
03:30:45,040 --> 03:30:48,760
this doctrine that is their
foundation, which is the fall of

3376
03:30:48,760 --> 03:30:52,120
the prophet and just is a good
and true doctrine, right?

3377
03:30:52,120 --> 03:30:53,320
Following the prophet is
important.

3378
03:30:53,560 --> 03:30:56,120
But what does Paul qualify that
doctrine with when he talks

3379
03:30:56,120 --> 03:30:58,280
about the importance of
following the prophet, he says

3380
03:30:58,280 --> 03:31:00,920
follow me even as I follow Jesus
Christ.

3381
03:31:02,560 --> 03:31:05,040
That's what he says.
And so the truth is, yes,

3382
03:31:05,120 --> 03:31:07,800
absolutely follow the prophet
without question as long as he's

3383
03:31:07,800 --> 03:31:11,000
following Jesus Christ and and
pointing you that way.

3384
03:31:12,640 --> 03:31:15,920
And so, and that doesn't always
appear to happen.

3385
03:31:15,920 --> 03:31:20,280
I'm not, and I'm not saying that
like, you know, President

3386
03:31:20,280 --> 03:31:23,400
Nelson's point, people that try
and go after the God Molech,

3387
03:31:23,440 --> 03:31:26,840
Molech, Molech or Ball or
something.

3388
03:31:26,840 --> 03:31:31,000
I'm not saying he's doing that
like taking people away from

3389
03:31:31,000 --> 03:31:32,400
Jesus Christ.
But in a certain sense, right?

3390
03:31:32,400 --> 03:31:36,160
Like when you, when you rebel
against the higher principles,

3391
03:31:36,160 --> 03:31:38,520
you are rebelling against Jesus
Christ because they are his

3392
03:31:38,520 --> 03:31:40,720
principles.
They are the Father's principles

3393
03:31:40,720 --> 03:31:44,080
as well.
But the Son is his emissary and

3394
03:31:44,080 --> 03:31:45,960
our direct mediator with God and
man.

3395
03:31:47,520 --> 03:31:53,240
So you cannot, you cannot do
this, rebel against this without

3396
03:31:53,240 --> 03:31:57,200
rebelling against the the sun.
We must obey God rather than

3397
03:31:57,200 --> 03:31:58,680
man.
That's the end of it.

3398
03:31:58,680 --> 03:31:59,840
I don't care what the government
says.

3399
03:31:59,840 --> 03:32:02,360
I don't care if the government
says that plural marriage is

3400
03:32:02,360 --> 03:32:04,360
legal.
They don't care anymore.

3401
03:32:04,360 --> 03:32:06,240
We could, the church could
practice plural marriage now, it

3402
03:32:06,240 --> 03:32:11,840
wouldn't be a problem.
But but anyway, right.

3403
03:32:11,840 --> 03:32:13,720
Like we've got to obey God
rather than man.

3404
03:32:13,880 --> 03:32:18,800
And there's this, the cult of
man that has come about in our

3405
03:32:18,800 --> 03:32:23,800
day that has bound so many
people down and still so many

3406
03:32:23,800 --> 03:32:26,560
good people, but also some bad
situations.

3407
03:32:27,160 --> 03:32:29,640
Absolutely.
So what do you think the future

3408
03:32:29,640 --> 03:32:31,240
holds for you?
You got an idea?

3409
03:32:34,480 --> 03:32:39,320
I want to live the laws.
Yeah, I want to.

3410
03:32:40,480 --> 03:32:45,000
I want to be amongst those
people who prioritize what God

3411
03:32:45,000 --> 03:32:46,040
has.
I want to.

3412
03:32:46,280 --> 03:32:49,960
I want to enter a temple that
has not been defiled by changed

3413
03:32:49,960 --> 03:32:58,080
ordinances.
You know, I want, I want the OG

3414
03:32:58,080 --> 03:33:03,960
thing, if you know what I mean.
I got you.

3415
03:33:03,960 --> 03:33:05,600
I got you.
Yeah.

3416
03:33:05,600 --> 03:33:08,800
I mean, like I want to.
I want an ordinance room with so

3417
03:33:08,800 --> 03:33:10,640
many people that it's going to
take 8 hours for us to get

3418
03:33:10,640 --> 03:33:11,600
through.
You know what I'm saying?

3419
03:33:13,560 --> 03:33:16,360
Like, I want that.
I want to go through and get

3420
03:33:16,360 --> 03:33:18,040
those endowments and experience
it.

3421
03:33:20,040 --> 03:33:23,000
I know the profound experience
that I had with my endowment in

3422
03:33:23,000 --> 03:33:25,920
Manti, one of the last live
endowments in the church in this

3423
03:33:25,920 --> 03:33:30,200
dispensation.
I was able to experience that

3424
03:33:30,240 --> 03:33:35,040
and and I know that that was a
profound experience.

3425
03:33:35,080 --> 03:33:38,720
I know how much more it's going
to be when I get the full thing,

3426
03:33:39,280 --> 03:33:45,960
when I am taught about who my
father is and, and everything

3427
03:33:45,960 --> 03:33:49,560
that he's done for me.
And so that's all I want.

3428
03:33:50,320 --> 03:33:54,640
I want to build Zion.
And anyone who wants to come

3429
03:33:54,640 --> 03:33:58,480
along with me, I'm I'm welcome.
I welcome them in the wagon and

3430
03:33:58,480 --> 03:34:00,120
we'll we'll push that hand card
on.

3431
03:34:01,920 --> 03:34:05,240
I want you to know all the
things you just talked about are

3432
03:34:05,240 --> 03:34:09,400
now available.
And I, I'm not just telling you,

3433
03:34:09,400 --> 03:34:13,400
I'm telling everyone out there
because look for everyone of

3434
03:34:13,400 --> 03:34:17,080
Braxton that's willing to be
vocal and talk, I'll bet you

3435
03:34:17,080 --> 03:34:24,160
there's, there's 15 to 20 in the
same stake that's being super

3436
03:34:24,160 --> 03:34:25,360
quiet.
Yeah.

3437
03:34:26,400 --> 03:34:30,160
Super quiet.
So if it's Mormonism unfiltered,

3438
03:34:30,160 --> 03:34:33,040
you want reach out, Reach out to
me.

3439
03:34:33,040 --> 03:34:35,120
Reach out to Braxton.
He can help you.

3440
03:34:35,240 --> 03:34:38,200
You don't like me, I get it.
Reach out to Braxton.

3441
03:34:38,320 --> 03:34:40,520
He can.
He can point you in the right

3442
03:34:40,520 --> 03:34:44,560
direction, yeah, but
nonetheless, every blessing that

3443
03:34:44,560 --> 03:34:48,320
you get in the in in the LDS
church is available to you

3444
03:34:48,520 --> 03:34:52,280
within Mormonism on the outside.
You don't have to settle for

3445
03:34:52,280 --> 03:34:54,000
less because the church tells
you to.

3446
03:34:54,800 --> 03:35:06,760
Now to the LDS church.
Why is it real quick?

3447
03:35:06,760 --> 03:35:14,640
Why is it if Braxton would have
came into his Bishop and said,

3448
03:35:14,640 --> 03:35:21,000
Bishop, I am struggling with
homosexual tendencies, that

3449
03:35:21,000 --> 03:35:22,880
Bishop would have been like,
well, let's get you some

3450
03:35:22,880 --> 03:35:24,840
counseling.
Let's talk about this.

3451
03:35:25,160 --> 03:35:28,360
Let's you know what, we'll work
through this and we'll walk

3452
03:35:28,360 --> 03:35:33,200
together in this.
But Braxton dare say, well, I

3453
03:35:33,200 --> 03:35:36,360
believe in the old doctrines.
I I believe in the old things.

3454
03:35:36,360 --> 03:35:39,400
I'm not living any of them, but
I believe them and that's

3455
03:35:39,400 --> 03:35:43,080
enough.
That's enough to get somebody

3456
03:35:43,080 --> 03:35:48,120
kicked out.
You know chastity issues aren't

3457
03:35:48,120 --> 03:35:50,120
enough.
Pornography is not enough,

3458
03:35:51,040 --> 03:35:58,120
right?
Mormonism is enough to get you

3459
03:35:58,120 --> 03:36:01,560
excommunicated.
That's a great way of putting

3460
03:36:01,560 --> 03:36:02,960
it.
What was your crime?

3461
03:36:03,320 --> 03:36:06,240
It was Mormonism.
That's what's got you kicked out

3462
03:36:06,240 --> 03:36:09,280
of the LDS church.
Yeah, which is interesting.

3463
03:36:09,320 --> 03:36:12,200
You know I got me got me kicked
out of Protestantism the first

3464
03:36:12,200 --> 03:36:14,400
time, right?
And now Mormonism is getting me

3465
03:36:14,400 --> 03:36:16,280
kicked out of the room.
And Mormonism, right?

3466
03:36:17,280 --> 03:36:19,640
Right.
You know, there are certain

3467
03:36:19,640 --> 03:36:24,200
times that I've wondered if that
promise that was given to Joseph

3468
03:36:24,200 --> 03:36:29,800
Smith about your name will be
had for both good and evil

3469
03:36:30,360 --> 03:36:33,840
didn't also mean anybody else
who wanted to follow the gospel,

3470
03:36:34,560 --> 03:36:37,760
right?
You know, the LDS Church made a

3471
03:36:37,760 --> 03:36:43,240
promise that they were going to
keep being the dispensary of

3472
03:36:43,240 --> 03:36:44,840
Mormonism.
Right.

3473
03:36:45,720 --> 03:36:50,280
Well, they fell down, and I'm
going to tell you how they fell

3474
03:36:50,280 --> 03:36:52,480
down.
They fell down because, quite

3475
03:36:52,480 --> 03:36:54,120
frankly, their leaders are
cowards.

3476
03:36:54,720 --> 03:36:57,640
Yeah, they decided to make a
covenant with death and hell.

3477
03:36:58,520 --> 03:37:01,000
They decided that they would
buddy up to the government

3478
03:37:01,000 --> 03:37:02,680
rather than hold to the
principles.

3479
03:37:03,600 --> 03:37:07,760
And I'm sorry, I'm going to call
it like I see it from about

3480
03:37:09,520 --> 03:37:14,360
Heber J Grant on Cowards,
Cowards.

3481
03:37:15,200 --> 03:37:23,840
You cannot in good conscience
continue to get get rid of

3482
03:37:23,840 --> 03:37:28,880
people whose only crime is
believing the founder of the

3483
03:37:28,880 --> 03:37:33,640
religion that you claim to hold.
Now you want to call it a

3484
03:37:33,640 --> 03:37:35,120
different religion?
Go ahead.

3485
03:37:35,360 --> 03:37:37,360
Community of Christ did it
right.

3486
03:37:37,360 --> 03:37:41,440
At least they had the honesty to
to say no, we're different.

3487
03:37:42,160 --> 03:37:47,000
Right.
But right now they are showing

3488
03:37:47,000 --> 03:37:50,600
out a counterfeit version of
Mormonism and calling it

3489
03:37:50,600 --> 03:37:52,120
authentic.
Right.

3490
03:37:52,240 --> 03:37:54,920
They're telling people that they
can become gods, even the sons

3491
03:37:54,920 --> 03:37:59,360
of God, by not obeying the very
requirements for doing so.

3492
03:38:00,320 --> 03:38:04,760
Neutral ground is shrinking, the
gap is widening, and we're

3493
03:38:04,760 --> 03:38:08,800
arriving at a decision point.
You can, you can choose.

3494
03:38:11,040 --> 03:38:12,480
You can choose where you want to
be.

3495
03:38:13,040 --> 03:38:16,440
You can choose if you want to
live in a in a world that

3496
03:38:16,440 --> 03:38:20,440
doesn't prioritize Zion and
those things that are necessary

3497
03:38:20,440 --> 03:38:24,400
to build it up, or you can
choose to be there, right?

3498
03:38:24,520 --> 03:38:25,760
You can choose to be there, not
there.

3499
03:38:25,760 --> 03:38:30,400
It's up to you.
You just have to recognize who

3500
03:38:30,400 --> 03:38:32,560
are the voices out there and
what are they telling you.

3501
03:38:34,640 --> 03:38:38,040
And if any man sets up doctrines
to you contrary to the Bible and

3502
03:38:38,040 --> 03:38:40,440
Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and
Covenants, the Pearl, Great

3503
03:38:40,440 --> 03:38:43,520
Price, and the thus saith the
Lords of all the prophets that

3504
03:38:43,520 --> 03:38:45,800
have come before, then I can
tell you this.

3505
03:38:45,800 --> 03:38:47,520
Set them out down as an
imposter.

3506
03:38:50,760 --> 03:38:52,080
And those aren't my words by the
way.

3507
03:38:52,080 --> 03:38:53,640
I expanded on them a little bit,
but.

3508
03:38:55,200 --> 03:38:58,120
That was Joseph Smith's words.
That was Joseph Smith's words,

3509
03:38:58,600 --> 03:39:00,840
right?
That's the reality.

3510
03:39:02,480 --> 03:39:07,640
To to give you an idea of our
depravity right now today, I saw

3511
03:39:07,680 --> 03:39:10,560
this on Facebook, on the fair
Mormon page.

3512
03:39:10,560 --> 03:39:12,160
I love fair.
We've been to their conference

3513
03:39:12,160 --> 03:39:15,320
and they're good folks.
But I saw this and I really had

3514
03:39:15,320 --> 03:39:20,560
to take it down.
As a note, let's see, this was

3515
03:39:20,560 --> 03:39:22,760
one of their posts about the
1886 revelation.

3516
03:39:23,280 --> 03:39:25,680
They had a bunch of pictures.
One of them said Revelation

3517
03:39:25,680 --> 03:39:28,360
doesn't override prophetic
authority, right?

3518
03:39:28,360 --> 03:39:32,640
The word of God thus saith the
Lord, does not override the

3519
03:39:32,640 --> 03:39:36,600
authority of the prophets.
The voice of the man cannot be

3520
03:39:36,600 --> 03:39:38,400
overridden by Thus saith the
Lord.

3521
03:39:39,800 --> 03:39:43,400
It the man has a primacy over,
thus saith the Lord.

3522
03:39:45,320 --> 03:39:49,400
What you're really saying is
that man, what they're, what

3523
03:39:49,400 --> 03:39:53,080
they are really saying is that
man overrides God.

3524
03:39:53,600 --> 03:39:55,480
Yes, that is exactly what's
happening.

3525
03:39:56,000 --> 03:39:58,560
And and you know, that's, that's
a private organization.

3526
03:39:58,560 --> 03:40:02,520
That's not the church, but that
represents a common thought

3527
03:40:02,520 --> 03:40:07,160
pattern within the church today.
Yeah, it's, it's a really tough

3528
03:40:07,160 --> 03:40:09,080
situation.
It's really scary.

3529
03:40:09,760 --> 03:40:11,800
And and it's it's, it's a ground
for concern.

3530
03:40:11,800 --> 03:40:14,080
That's what it is.
You know, it's a concern and a

3531
03:40:14,080 --> 03:40:17,760
cry to repentance.
Like please, please be

3532
03:40:17,760 --> 03:40:23,840
reconciled to God.
Please man, repent and.

3533
03:40:24,720 --> 03:40:27,200
Repent, for the Kingdom of
heaven is near and.

3534
03:40:28,280 --> 03:40:36,960
Absolutely, Braxton.
I feel like I don't want to end

3535
03:40:36,960 --> 03:40:38,640
it on that.
Yeah.

3536
03:40:41,200 --> 03:40:44,120
So tell me what it's like
worshiping now outside of the

3537
03:40:44,120 --> 03:40:46,720
church with with the crazy
fundies.

3538
03:40:47,400 --> 03:40:49,520
The crazy fundies.
Well, it's so fun.

3539
03:40:52,640 --> 03:40:57,040
It's great.
I mean, honestly, it is so life

3540
03:40:57,040 --> 03:41:04,920
giving because like I said
before, these are people who are

3541
03:41:04,920 --> 03:41:08,000
not too wise to be taught.
Like they're so they're so

3542
03:41:08,000 --> 03:41:13,880
humble that they will be willing
to receive and that they will

3543
03:41:13,880 --> 03:41:16,360
not put their stick in the
ground and say this far God's

3544
03:41:16,360 --> 03:41:19,760
reveal that will go no further.
And so that's really one of the

3545
03:41:19,760 --> 03:41:22,720
beautiful things, something I
really love, right.

3546
03:41:24,160 --> 03:41:28,360
I've, I've been around and, and
I've been to sacrament meetings

3547
03:41:28,360 --> 03:41:33,320
and at sacrament, right, People
won't come up with a prepared

3548
03:41:33,320 --> 03:41:35,560
script, right?
Someone's just going to say

3549
03:41:36,000 --> 03:41:37,520
you're coming up and giving a
talk.

3550
03:41:37,520 --> 03:41:41,240
Yep.
Oh, it's so good, right.

3551
03:41:43,560 --> 03:41:48,960
And just people speaking by the
spirit of hearing little girls.

3552
03:41:48,960 --> 03:41:51,680
Like they'll call if you know,
like a primary talk and they'll

3553
03:41:51,680 --> 03:41:56,720
call a little girl out like no
older than 1011 years old and

3554
03:41:56,720 --> 03:41:59,600
she'll start quoting, I think.
What was the book The way of

3555
03:41:59,600 --> 03:42:03,960
Life by Joseph Philly Smith?
I'm like, who are you, little

3556
03:42:03,960 --> 03:42:06,000
girl?
Like you're, you're preaching

3557
03:42:06,000 --> 03:42:08,480
some doctrine right here.
You're preaching some old school

3558
03:42:08,480 --> 03:42:13,600
stuff.
And it's so fantastic because

3559
03:42:13,600 --> 03:42:18,800
you see the Spirit of God moving
in these people and the way they

3560
03:42:18,800 --> 03:42:20,800
speak because they're not going
off a script.

3561
03:42:21,080 --> 03:42:27,560
It's not this wrote memorized
new speak as we're talking about

3562
03:42:27,560 --> 03:42:30,880
George Orwell in 1884, right?
It is.

3563
03:42:30,920 --> 03:42:34,600
It is the living, breathing
oracles of God pouring out from

3564
03:42:34,600 --> 03:42:40,720
the elders and sisters of those
congregations of speaking as

3565
03:42:40,720 --> 03:42:44,840
they're moved upon by the Holy
Ghost of of testifying of those

3566
03:42:44,840 --> 03:42:47,720
deeper doctrines, but also of
the foundations of the gospel of

3567
03:42:48,120 --> 03:42:51,480
of repentance and faith and
baptism in ways that are so

3568
03:42:51,480 --> 03:42:54,560
fresh.
Then you'll hear in the church

3569
03:42:54,560 --> 03:42:57,080
and the church is so good and
in, in certain ways, in a way

3570
03:42:57,120 --> 03:42:59,200
how it prepares people
understand the basics of the

3571
03:42:59,200 --> 03:43:02,280
gospel.
But they do a great job in the

3572
03:43:02,280 --> 03:43:09,200
fullness as well.
And wow, seeing the sacrament is

3573
03:43:09,200 --> 03:43:12,640
so good.
I've had so many good

3574
03:43:12,640 --> 03:43:14,480
experiences.
I mentioned earlier about the

3575
03:43:14,480 --> 03:43:16,240
feast, right?
I had the opportunity to go to

3576
03:43:16,560 --> 03:43:21,960
the Passover at the Ericsson's
in April, and it was perhaps the

3577
03:43:21,960 --> 03:43:25,640
most remarkably spiritual
experiences of my life.

3578
03:43:25,640 --> 03:43:28,160
Why?
Because it taught me first hand,

3579
03:43:28,240 --> 03:43:30,560
truly before my eyes, what the
Atonement was.

3580
03:43:30,920 --> 03:43:35,120
Watching the lamb be
slaughtered, watching the

3581
03:43:35,120 --> 03:43:40,120
Paschal lamb go the way of all
the earth and, and, and suffer.

3582
03:43:40,320 --> 03:43:43,480
It didn't suffer much right, But
to have to lay down its life so

3583
03:43:43,480 --> 03:43:47,200
that we could have life and,
and, and recognize our

3584
03:43:47,200 --> 03:43:50,360
commitment and covenant with the
Father, with Jehovah.

3585
03:43:52,600 --> 03:43:57,560
That was so impactful for me.
So many spiritual experiences of

3586
03:43:57,560 --> 03:44:02,000
singing with the Saints, right
of of hearing their spirit,

3587
03:44:03,280 --> 03:44:08,080
learning to love them and of
being loved, being loved.

3588
03:44:08,160 --> 03:44:13,160
Here we go being loved as I am,
right and I and that phrase can

3589
03:44:13,160 --> 03:44:15,320
be can be misused sometimes,
right?

3590
03:44:15,320 --> 03:44:17,960
Because doesn't mean acceptance,
right?

3591
03:44:18,160 --> 03:44:20,080
When things are false, we need
to call them out.

3592
03:44:20,520 --> 03:44:27,280
But a place where I can be in
line with God's commands and

3593
03:44:27,280 --> 03:44:30,560
just be accepted for that, a
place where I can breathe.

3594
03:44:31,400 --> 03:44:36,480
And I found that place.
It's like I've, I've found

3595
03:44:36,480 --> 03:44:41,640
people who, who prioritize that
and, and those, that's a diverse

3596
03:44:41,640 --> 03:44:44,120
body of people.
Like I just have so many good

3597
03:44:44,640 --> 03:44:47,400
friends in the fundamentalist
world that I get to be around

3598
03:44:47,400 --> 03:44:52,800
and, you know, and love and
they'll, I get to talk to, you

3599
03:44:52,800 --> 03:44:54,960
know.
You're not held back.

3600
03:44:55,760 --> 03:45:01,360
Not held back, Not held back,
you know, so good.

3601
03:45:02,400 --> 03:45:05,880
Beautiful.
Oh, look, I know it was an

3602
03:45:05,880 --> 03:45:08,600
ordeal, right?
I mean, I'm, I'm just sitting

3603
03:45:08,600 --> 03:45:11,120
here now summarizing your entire
story.

3604
03:45:11,120 --> 03:45:16,000
You went from a Campbellite to
an agnostic, back to a

3605
03:45:16,000 --> 03:45:22,240
Campbellite to a member of the
LDS Church, to a fundamentalist.

3606
03:45:23,200 --> 03:45:25,000
I mean, that's a journey, my
man.

3607
03:45:25,640 --> 03:45:27,880
Yeah.
But would you trade any of it?

3608
03:45:28,920 --> 03:45:33,600
No, Lord has made me something
far greater than I ever could

3609
03:45:33,600 --> 03:45:37,000
have been on my own, right, and
I've still got a long way to go

3610
03:45:37,000 --> 03:45:40,680
before I'm ever anything that
measures up to what He really

3611
03:45:40,680 --> 03:45:47,600
wants me to be in its fullness.
You know, it doesn't yet appear

3612
03:45:47,600 --> 03:45:53,640
what we shall be, right?
But I wouldn't change it

3613
03:45:53,640 --> 03:45:58,320
because, Oh my, the chains that
he has ripped off of me in in

3614
03:45:58,320 --> 03:46:02,000
all these years and all 26 years
of my life, it's been so good.

3615
03:46:02,400 --> 03:46:04,240
And I will praise him again and
again.

3616
03:46:06,600 --> 03:46:10,760
It's just wow, yeah, he's so
good.

3617
03:46:11,720 --> 03:46:14,960
Dude, fantastic stuff.
All right, one last thing and

3618
03:46:14,960 --> 03:46:17,360
then we're going to wrap up
since we've been at it 4 hours.

3619
03:46:17,680 --> 03:46:22,840
I mean, you haven't taught
Joshua Erickson's yet, but but

3620
03:46:22,840 --> 03:46:24,720
we're close.
I want, I want Joshua to know

3621
03:46:24,720 --> 03:46:27,720
he's coming for your title, bro.
Longest podcast ever.

3622
03:46:28,760 --> 03:46:30,600
All right.
Real, real quick.

3623
03:46:31,720 --> 03:46:33,880
Would you mind bearing your
testimony before we leave?

3624
03:46:34,520 --> 03:46:37,120
Yeah, I will.
I will be more than happy to do

3625
03:46:37,120 --> 03:46:41,960
that.
I'm a Wretch, right?

3626
03:46:42,120 --> 03:46:47,440
I'm I'm a mess.
And I'm in the grand scheme of

3627
03:46:47,440 --> 03:46:49,760
the Kingdom of heaven, I am the
least of these.

3628
03:46:49,760 --> 03:46:51,800
I'm the least of the least of
these.

3629
03:46:54,640 --> 03:46:58,320
But for some reason, God, in his
infinite mercy and loving

3630
03:46:58,320 --> 03:47:05,520
kindness, decided that he would
make himself known to me, that

3631
03:47:05,520 --> 03:47:09,520
he would reveal himself to me
and say, I know you're here and

3632
03:47:09,520 --> 03:47:11,640
I know you're so far from what I
want you to be.

3633
03:47:12,080 --> 03:47:15,800
But because I love you so much,
I don't want AI, don't want a

3634
03:47:15,800 --> 03:47:17,400
Kingdom of heaven without you in
it.

3635
03:47:19,920 --> 03:47:23,280
And so he revealed himself in so
many marvelous ways throughout

3636
03:47:23,280 --> 03:47:27,600
my life that brought me into the
truth step by step.

3637
03:47:27,600 --> 03:47:32,680
It wasn't all at once, but he
was just that good and patient

3638
03:47:33,160 --> 03:47:36,480
that he was able from here as a
Campbellite to give me a little

3639
03:47:36,480 --> 03:47:40,760
truth.
And from there, as has an

3640
03:47:40,760 --> 03:47:44,520
agnostic to teach me a little
lesson truth to teach me a

3641
03:47:44,520 --> 03:47:47,760
little lesson in the eldest
church, which is such a good

3642
03:47:47,760 --> 03:47:51,280
place.
Get me really prepared for the

3643
03:47:51,280 --> 03:47:54,800
full fullness.
And then as a fundamentalist,

3644
03:47:55,160 --> 03:47:58,440
I'm, I'm just a baby, right?
I'm I'm a newborn babe in this

3645
03:48:00,160 --> 03:48:03,000
still still chewing on a still
drinking a little milk before I

3646
03:48:03,000 --> 03:48:06,640
get to the meat, but he's been
there all through.

3647
03:48:07,400 --> 03:48:11,400
I know that my savior lives.
I know that fundamentalism is

3648
03:48:11,400 --> 03:48:15,840
true because orthodox Mormonism
is true because the savior of

3649
03:48:15,840 --> 03:48:19,520
the world lives, right?
I want that clear right?

3650
03:48:20,320 --> 03:48:24,200
The Savior of the world lives
and He makes efficacious and

3651
03:48:24,200 --> 03:48:26,720
makes away all of His doctrines
to be lived.

3652
03:48:27,200 --> 03:48:29,960
That includes the doctrine of
repentance and faith and

3653
03:48:29,960 --> 03:48:32,760
baptism.
By immersion, by the gift, the

3654
03:48:32,760 --> 03:48:36,000
reception of the gift of the
Holy Ghost, He makes it possible

3655
03:48:36,000 --> 03:48:38,960
for us to endure and enjoy until
the end of our lives.

3656
03:48:39,360 --> 03:48:43,800
He has given us and makes
efficacious the doctrine of of

3657
03:48:43,800 --> 03:48:46,680
celestial plural marriage, of
the United order.

3658
03:48:46,960 --> 03:48:51,680
All these things He has revealed
to us in His countenance, all

3659
03:48:51,680 --> 03:48:54,680
these marvelous truths.
He is by the mouth of His

3660
03:48:54,680 --> 03:48:57,600
prophets, revealed to us the
doctrine that Adam is our

3661
03:48:57,600 --> 03:49:01,160
Father, that He is nearer to us
than we have ever imagined or

3662
03:49:01,160 --> 03:49:06,480
supposed, that He really is
there, that He, being a human

3663
03:49:06,480 --> 03:49:09,400
because He understands us, wants
a relationship with us.

3664
03:49:11,400 --> 03:49:14,240
And I know all these things, not
only by the revelation of the

3665
03:49:14,240 --> 03:49:20,440
Holy Spirit unto me, but I know
these things because of a farm

3666
03:49:20,440 --> 03:49:28,040
boy who like me, just wasn't
ever content with being stuck in

3667
03:49:28,040 --> 03:49:31,200
one place and saying, you know
what, I'm going to go after

3668
03:49:31,200 --> 03:49:36,720
this, whatever it takes.
And I don't measure up in any

3669
03:49:36,720 --> 03:49:40,680
sense to the stature of that
man, but I appreciate it at

3670
03:49:40,680 --> 03:49:43,600
least got some of that that
questioning energy that he has

3671
03:49:43,600 --> 03:49:47,440
to that that farm boy, Joseph
Smith.

3672
03:49:48,920 --> 03:49:52,400
I'm so grateful for the ways he
points me in Jesus, right?

3673
03:49:52,400 --> 03:49:54,800
That's that's the key, right?
That's why is Joseph Smith

3674
03:49:54,800 --> 03:49:56,920
great.
He's great because he points me

3675
03:49:56,920 --> 03:50:00,000
to Jesus, because he brings me
to my savor and my Redeemer.

3676
03:50:00,000 --> 03:50:06,920
He teaches me doctrine, pure and
undefiled, direct from the

3677
03:50:06,920 --> 03:50:10,320
heavens.
I know, I know he was who he

3678
03:50:10,320 --> 03:50:13,760
says he was.
I know that He is mingling with

3679
03:50:13,760 --> 03:50:17,800
God's preparing for us, His
brethren, and that if you want

3680
03:50:17,880 --> 03:50:22,440
to mingle with Him, all you got
to do is repent, for the Kingdom

3681
03:50:22,440 --> 03:50:27,480
of heaven is near, come unto
Christ, be perfected in Him, and

3682
03:50:27,480 --> 03:50:30,480
receive all the ordinances.
And that means all of them.

3683
03:50:30,880 --> 03:50:35,840
Not just some of them, not just
the ones that we're told we can

3684
03:50:35,840 --> 03:50:40,400
receive in the church, but all
the ones that the prophets have

3685
03:50:40,400 --> 03:50:42,280
laid out since the foundation of
the earth.

3686
03:50:43,960 --> 03:50:48,440
And I, I bear that testimony
ready and willing to die for it,

3687
03:50:48,440 --> 03:50:51,720
to be in prison, for it to lose
all things on my in my life for

3688
03:50:51,720 --> 03:50:53,600
it.
In the name of Jesus Christ,

3689
03:50:54,080 --> 03:50:57,400
Amen.
Amen, Braxton, I'm not even

3690
03:50:57,400 --> 03:51:00,640
going to defile that with any of
my comments.

3691
03:51:00,640 --> 03:51:04,360
Just Amen.
We'll, we'll end it right there.

3692
03:51:04,400 --> 03:51:07,520
But I do think you got a bright
future ahead of you.

3693
03:51:07,600 --> 03:51:10,840
And I do think that you're about
to become very, very busy.

3694
03:51:11,320 --> 03:51:13,760
I don't know why, but I think
you got some stuff in front of

3695
03:51:13,760 --> 03:51:16,560
you here.
So other than that, beautiful.

3696
03:51:16,560 --> 03:51:19,560
Braxton, thank you for sharing.
Thank you for being vulnerable

3697
03:51:19,560 --> 03:51:22,040
in this moment.
Yes, Sir.

3698
03:51:22,120 --> 03:51:25,080
Dude, I count you as a friend
and I'm I'm, I'm honored to know

3699
03:51:25,080 --> 03:51:26,560
you stick around 5 minutes.
All right.

3700
03:51:26,920 --> 03:51:28,440
OK, let's do it.
All right.

3701
03:51:28,440 --> 03:52:00,760
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the.