Episode #14 History of & Changes to the Temple Ordinances with Moroni Jessop

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So first let me apologize that I
didn't get this episode out,

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sooner, you're going to notice
that the audio and spots is kind

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of rough and that's give you
some bad internet connections.

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So I was really working this
audio over trying to clean it up

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as best as I could, and that's
why it's a few days late.

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However, despite some rough
patches this episode is one of

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the most important.
I think I've done to date on

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this episode.
I have on moroni's Jessa.

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Now, normally, this is the spot
in the show where I tell

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everyone a little bit about my
Yes, but let's be honest.

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It's moroni's Jessa, everyone in
fundamentalism knows who he is.

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Anyway, he came on and we talked
about the history of and the

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changes that were made to the
temple.

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Ordinances now about the last
half hour of this interview

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Moroni and I end up talking
about some pretty controversial

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topics.
I'm sure the last segment of

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this podcast will end up
ruffling.

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Some feathers in fact, this may
turn some folks off to the

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podcast entirely.
Now I hope this doesn't happen.

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But I told you the listener
early on that, I was going to be

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truthful with you in my search
for truth and authenticity.

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I have counted the cost of
releasing this episode and know

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this may cost me but stay true
to who I am.

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I feel like it's something that
had to happen.

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So buckle up because that's next
on this edition of the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Your listing to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Welcome back to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast as always you
can get ahold of me either by

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email at Mormon Renegade at
gmail.com.

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You can also get a hold of me on
Instagram and Twitter and getter

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under the handle.
Mormon Renegade.

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Also we have a website up and
that's Mormon Renegade.com, so

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go check that out.
Well maronna I'll tell you what.

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Man I can't appreciate you
enough being on.

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I mean I followed you for years
on Facebook and listen to some

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of your talks and they were some
of the best and I feel like in

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some ways you're a guy that's
near and dear to my heart,

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right?
Because I'm a little

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unconventional, like you are
right?

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I'm gonna I'm gonna drop the the
swear word and I'm going to be,

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you know, a little rebellious at
times and it works out really

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well.
That that you're on and I'm just

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super stoked that you're here.
Well, thanks.

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I'm really glad you invited me.
And I'm always surprised when I

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hear that people have followed
stuff that I do because, you

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know, a lot of times, it doesn't
feel like people are listening

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or hearing things, I have to
say.

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So do I always appreciate
hearing the people are hearing,

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you know, some of the podcast,
I've done some of the posts I've

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made and of course, you know, I
knew who you were so I feel very

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fortunate that I got an invite
for me to be on here.

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Well, I sure, appreciate that.
So as I reached out to you

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before and brought up the
subject of the temple and the

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temple changes and the changes
to those ordinances I couldn't

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think of a better guy to do it.
Because look I'm just going to

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shoot you straight.
All the stuff you do is pretty

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well thought out.
So I feel like like you were the

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perfect guy for this, this
episode So thank you.

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I'm not sure that what I'm going
to say is very well thought out

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but I'll give it a shot.
I think you're going to do

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great.
So real quick, give us just kind

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of a brief history if you will
on the Terra Temple ceremony

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from like Joseph Smith to
Brigham Young.

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Okay, so first of all, you know,
if you're going to talk about

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Temple ordinances, you have to
start with her one and you know,

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but things really weren't
developed and well, you have to

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go back even further.
You have to go back to Sidney

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Rigdon Sidney, Sidney Rigdon,
you know came from the Campbell

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light movement and you know
what?

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They quoted the scriptures, they
talk about receiving and in

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gentleman from on high.
Sidney Rigdon at that time.

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Was referring more to like, like
a confirmation that you receive

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after baptism for Kim.
That was the MVP element that

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you receive in.
For some restoration, is

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organizations like The Community
of Christ that's still the

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endowment, your endowed from on
high but Joseph Smith, you know

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it's it's recorded in some of
the early Doctrine and Covenants

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sections like I think 43 or 44,
that they were supposed to build

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the temple and Kirkland and when
they were able to build the

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temple and Kurt ones, then the
Lord would provide a greater and

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dominant than what they had
previously received also can I

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stop you there for a second?
Because I'm going to ask you

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some questions here about in
your estimation, you're talking

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about Sidney Rigdon in the
Campbell lights and being

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endowed with power from on high.
Is that, is that something that

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we carry forward as Mormons now?
Are they because you hear that a

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lot?
But in that time frame, the

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1830s and 40s, are they talking
about something different than

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the temple ceremony?
Yeah, there.

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I mean, it definitely evolved
into something greater.

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But I think that sometimes it's
Latter-Day Saints were a little

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dismissive of the power of the
confirmation that the we are

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supposed to work.
Even the gift of the Holy Ghost,

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when we were confirmed members
of the Church of Jesus Christ of

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Latter Day seeing so, you know,
I think that we shouldn't ever

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be on play the importance of
that.

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As being part of an initiatory
process, I guess you should say

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my dad used to say that that the
endowment incurs in increments

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that, you know, starting from
starting from the basic all the

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way to the highest ordinances of
the temple, you No, it's all one

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and beyond that, it's not, it's
not necessarily codified into

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smaller pieces.
It's all part of one big Mass

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endowment, I guess you could
say.

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And I think that like Orson
Pratt Bears me out on that, I

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read in times and Seasons where
Orson Pratt defined the ceiling

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keys of Elijah as the authority
For any man to perform any

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priest hood ornaments from the
beginning from, baptism all the

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way to the highest ordinances.
Those are all.

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That's what the encompasses, the
ceiling keys of Elijah.

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And you know, when you look at
it in, kind of that kind of

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holistic perspective than doctor
and Covenants section 2 makes a

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little more sense where it says
that.

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You know, behold I will reveal
unto you the precip by Elijah,

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that will turn the hearts of the
father's to the children and the

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hearts of the children to the
father's.

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Fathers bless the whole earth,
be utterly wasted at his coming.

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So in essence, every the keys
for every single ordinance have

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to be actively engaged upon this
Earth at the time of the second

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coming, otherwise as it says in
the scriptures is whole world

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will be wasted.
So you know the pre I guess him

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a people refer to what happened
in Kirtland is like a pre

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endowment.
But it was a vital and integral

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part of what was to come say in
in Nauvoo and and beyond that.

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But career one is where they
begin doing the washing of feet

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which was a vital part of the
endowment process.

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You know, one that I think a lot
of Latter-day Saints, don't know

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that much about anymore, but you
know, that was for the cleansing

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of the blood and sins of this
generation and that was one of

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the first temple endowment.
Something that occurred occurred

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right inside of the temple.
And of course, you have later

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leaders, like Joseph Fielding
Smith who wrote in, I think,

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what was it?
A working of wonder where he

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talks about that the purpose of
the Kirk.

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Temple was to establish a holy
place.

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Where Beings from Heaven to come
and deliver deliver further

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keys, and to Joseph.
Because we know, you know, at

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this point that he didn't have
all the authority to perform all

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the ordinances that had to come
in increments.

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Okay, so when Sidney Rigdon
talks about being endowed with

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power from on high, does he have
the idea of Temple work going

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on?
Or is he talking about something

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different?
I don't think he had a clue but

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so that matter I don't think
Joseph did either.

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No.
But Joseph knew enough to know

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that there was more coming.
In fact, he said that on several

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occasions that there was more
that was going to be, there was

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coming after that.
So but I don't think, you know,

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I don't think Joseph had it in
his mind yet.

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What was going to take place in
the endowment ceremony and the

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years to come Okay, so how would
you classify, then the Kirtland

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Temple.
What in your mind, what was the

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Kirtland Temple, because they're
not performing full full, you

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know, endowment sessions or or
ceilings or those sorts of

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things they're doing, they're
doing a type and Shadow.

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If I'm understanding you
correctly with, it's like a

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precursor.
Okay, with washing P.

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Okay, so that's definitely kind
of a precursor.

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Yes.
Okay, in my estimation, it is.

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Yeah and I think that's that's
probably pretty accurate, right?

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Because you're seeing a place
where you can congregate with

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the entire congregation and then
performing some other ordinances

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so that definitely holds water
so to speak that that it was a

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preparatory kind of Temple.
Yeah.

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So then, you know, we know the
troubles that happened in

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Kirtland and they wound up
losing access to that particular

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Temple and I've often wondered
what would happen in the

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Kirtland Temple.
If If they had been able to keep

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it, you know, I wonder if we
would have seen the involved,

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the evolvement of the endowment
further inside of the church

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Kirtland Temple.
Of course, we'll never know

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because then you know, they had
financial problems and gurgling.

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He had 1838 Mormon, the boring
Missouri and he wasn't, I think

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until they were driven out of
Missouri and we located in Nabu,

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they started Thinking you know
they had a little period of

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peace or where they started
thinking about and working

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again, it started construction
of the Nauvoo Temple and of

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course, you know, the Nauvoo
Temple.

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Got another precursor, which was
the Red Brick Store, and, you

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know, I'm sure that a lot of
people have heard of that, that

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Joseph started administering
washing of the thieves and other

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ordinances.
He, he had joined, you know, the

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Freemasons and had been exposed
to some of those ideas and

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gradually started, introducing
his own version of free.

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Masonry.
A doctor floor, the, the record

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store and did washing of feet
started.

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The second anointings, you know,
all of those things that started

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to flesh out a little bit in the
in the in Nauvoo and the red

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brick store.
So real quick, I want to go back

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Want to go back to something
with that.

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You said just a few minutes ago
about the Red Brick Store era,

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he's not performing full
endowments up there.

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Or is he well?
He, he was in, he was

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introducing Washington
anointings.

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Well, they did, I have to go
back.

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They did Washington's an
anointing, send the Kirtland

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Temple to, but he continued.
The custom of Washington

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anointings in The Red Brick
Store.

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He also introduced signs tokens
and penalties.

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So it was starting to kind of
flesh out, you know.

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And I think it was until the
actual Nauvoo ceremony in the

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temple that we started seeing
something that resembles the

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endowment that we have today.
Yeah, one interesting thing, I

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always read from the time since
I was a kid, how they would

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have, they would anoint
themselves, they would wash and

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anoint themselves with like
things like whiskey, right?

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I mean, can you imagine that?
Well, yeah, I mean, it sounds

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funny to us today because of
kind of the the time that we're

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in, right?
But as you look at it, it makes

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it kind of makes sense, right?
Because look, hygiene isn't

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wasn't as great back then, as it
was today, right?

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I mean, you may not take a bath
all winter and so if you're

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going to someplace holy, you
better be clean, right?

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And brain.
And so yeah, it it sounds funny

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until you put it into historical
context and it makes kind of

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sense.
I want to ask you about

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something else because you
brought up another point that I

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want to kind of flush out here a
little bit.

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And that is the link between the
the temple ceremony and masonry.

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What is your understanding of
how that process comes to?

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Because I think I think if we're
fair and if we're honest we have

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See that.
That had some sort of impact on

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Joseph, the kind of started
those wheels turning right.

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00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:39,300
Yeah, of course when it when I
tell, when I explain things I

224
00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:40,900
always have to give like an
anecdote.

225
00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:42,800
Right?
So no, it's good.

226
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,300
Yeah, I mean, so I when I was
young, I was a I was an exchange

227
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:54,200
student in Belgium and the
family that I stayed with my

228
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,400
host family.
They were Freemasons.

229
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,800
And when I was there, I had I'd
no idea what Freemasons were but

230
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,100
I went to a lot of the
Freemasons gatherings.

231
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:06,600
I went to like picnics with the
local masons in the Argonne

232
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:11,700
forest and things like that.
But one night the father of the

233
00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:16,200
host family that I was staying
with took me aside and you know

234
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,200
in broken English and you know I
spoke broken French, he spoke

235
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,800
broken English and but between
the two of us we were able to

236
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:27,100
communicate and he he said you
know he says I noticed that the

237
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,100
when We're asking you, if you
were Mormon that you're

238
00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:36,700
hesitating and of course I was
because everyone in Belgium,

239
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,600
when they found out I was Mormon
and you know, I'm only like 18

240
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,200
years old.
They're trying to give me the

241
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,500
word of wisdom test by offering
me wine.

242
00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:51,900
The you know I started getting
annoyed by when every time

243
00:15:51,900 --> 00:15:54,300
somebody was asking me if I was
warming because I knew they were

244
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:58,900
going to offer me alcohol and
then so so Says, you know, I

245
00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:02,600
noticed that you're hesitating
when people are asking you.

246
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,700
If you're Mormon, he says, you
need to be proud that you're

247
00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:14,600
Mormon and then he said me,
Freemason, you Mormon Mangos,

248
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:19,300
Freemason respect Mormon.
And of course I didn't mean

249
00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:22,300
anything to me at 18 years old
but obviously he knew that there

250
00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:26,600
was a connection.
So so he was he was you know

251
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,900
trying to express an affinity
towards me because we believe in

252
00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:32,500
something similar.
That's awesome.

253
00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:35,600
And you know you but you were
you not just Mormon?

254
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:38,100
You were, if I'm not mistaken,
you were raised in

255
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,600
fundamentalism, right?
No, no.

256
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,500
I was actually raised in the LDS
Church.

257
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:46,900
Okay, I apologize just to just
to clarify a little bit about my

258
00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:55,700
family, so my great-grandfather
was one of the founding members

259
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:58,700
of the fundamentalist
organization.

260
00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:01,100
He lived with Lauren Rowley as a
ranch hand.

261
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,000
And so he was involved in the
movement, right?

262
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:10,400
From the beginning.
But my grandmother, Took my

263
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,800
grandfather back to the church.
She didn't she wasn't having any

264
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,000
of this fundamentalistic stuff.
And so, they went back to the

265
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:25,000
church and then he instructed my
dad on a lot of fundamentalist

266
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,800
principles had my dad grew up in
the church.

267
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,300
He served a mission for the
church but his dad died when he

268
00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:34,200
was 14 before, he was able to
find out very much about his

269
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:39,600
fundamental aspect room, and my
dad was just told by By my

270
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,500
grandmother and my grandmother's
family that polygamists were

271
00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:47,900
lecherous old men and they were
evil and my dad being a super

272
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:49,900
missionary.
When he started going to be

273
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:53,600
like, you came across some of
his Jessup, relatives, if he had

274
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,300
never met before and being the
super missionary that he was,

275
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:01,500
he's decided to try to prove
them wrong and he started

276
00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:07,600
spending all of his time out of
class in the special collections

277
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,800
section of what you Library.
And he became converted their.

278
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,500
So at age, 20, when I was 20,
you know, my dad, basically,

279
00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:24,400
four years got chewed out by the
church and was told the state

280
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,400
quiet and everything.
But when I was 20, the whole

281
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,500
family got excommunicated, we
had some being award who was

282
00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:37,400
kind of high up and In Cahoots
and you know, on really good

283
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:38,800
terms with the general
authorities.

284
00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:42,800
And he wasn't having any of this
quasi fundamentalist stuff and

285
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,700
his Ward.
So he requested from Salt Lake

286
00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:50,300
to have everyone of us
excommunicated and we were all

287
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:52,700
cut off all the weekend with my
13 year old sister.

288
00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:58,300
Wow, you know of course from
there we all became fundamental.

289
00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:02,600
It's we were in the AUB for
about five years and then most

290
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:07,400
of the time after that we spent
its independence but anyway,

291
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,200
Yeah, yeah it's been tough and
I'm sure we'll get into this a

292
00:19:13,208 --> 00:19:15,300
little bit more later.
Right?

293
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,900
Anyway.
So then when I was we grew up in

294
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:25,600
Arizona.
And when I was 20 years old, I

295
00:19:25,608 --> 00:19:28,100
decided after my
excommunication, I decided to

296
00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:34,300
move to, to Salt Lake, to be
closer to other fundamentals.

297
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:41,200
And I was going to Salt Lake
Community College. and, I

298
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,400
decided to attend Institute
classes, so I was attending

299
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:51,200
Institute and there was this guy
that was like, Obviously I mean

300
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,700
I didn't know then but he's
obviously a next month and next

301
00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:58,200
month and Becky would argue with
the Seminary teacher for the

302
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,100
Institute teacher at every
opportunity.

303
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:03,100
Good.
We finally, I wasn't getting the

304
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:06,600
text with the answers and so he
leaned over and one day and he

305
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,300
said, he said, What kind of
vomiting?

306
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,900
I said, I'm a Mormon
fundamentalist and does.

307
00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:17,900
Oh, and I remember specifically.
There was somebody sitting by me

308
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:21,100
who picked up their books and
moved across the room from me

309
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,400
and that virus then halfway
through class is all this guy

310
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,500
goes.
I just realized what a

311
00:20:32,508 --> 00:20:36,200
fundamentalist is.
And so after class he wanted to

312
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:41,500
talk to me and so we're talking
and he said, you know, he said

313
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,500
Joseph Smith got the idea for
the temple ceremony from the

314
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:49,800
Freemasons, from the Masons and
you know, me not knowing what

315
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,200
amazing is.
I'm thinking like, brick masons.

316
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,000
You got the idea to build a
temple from brick masons, you

317
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,200
know, like it didn't make sense
to me.

318
00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,800
So it wasn't later.
It wasn't until after I was

319
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:06,000
endowed.
I realized that the endowment is

320
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:10,900
indeed connected to Freemasonry
and so I started this study from

321
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:12,900
that point on, I started
studying everything I could

322
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:16,300
about Freemasonry short of
becoming a Mason myself.

323
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:21,100
I'm not amazing myself, but but
I had to settle for into our

324
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:27,100
I've studied a lot of their
rituals and traditions and there

325
00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:31,700
is a definite Connection between
the endowment of Freemasonry.

326
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:36,300
I mean it's evident to anybody
who studies it and you know,

327
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,100
people like Brigham Young and
Heber C, Kimball worthy of the

328
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:46,400
opinion that the endowment is
true Freemasonry and that

329
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:50,500
Freemasonry was simply an
archetype of a much older

330
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:55,800
tradition from which our
endowment descends and is the

331
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,500
spiritual heir of that
particular provision.

332
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,900
Cool real quick.
You breaking up a little bit.

333
00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:11,300
You want to try to maybe put
that mic back on or Yeah, let me

334
00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:12,600
see.
I can't see beyond the other

335
00:22:13,900 --> 00:22:17,800
kind of gurgly.
Yeah, I had the problem last

336
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:19,500
time I did this.
Okay.

337
00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:22,500
And I'm going to turn it on and
you just tell me.

338
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:27,400
If it sounds clear, we you sound
find at times in another kind of

339
00:22:27,408 --> 00:22:35,700
just goes gurgling.
Okay, hold on.

340
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:41,200
Sound good.
I don't think it's hard but I

341
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,500
get ENC there.
You were just early.

342
00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:50,500
Okay, let me see here.
Connect my Bluetooth.

343
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:54,200
I'm so sorry, man.
Oh, that's all right.

344
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:59,800
So, how much of it did you miss
not much?

345
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,600
Not much.
You can get the, we get 99% of,

346
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,800
it's just every once in a while,
it just goes gargling.

347
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:15,300
Yeah.
For some reason.

348
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,300
I'm going to continue and I can
try to fill this with this wagon

349
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,800
while we talk, okay.
So do you get the sense that

350
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,600
Joseph sees the the Masonic
ceremony and then he starts

351
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,400
receiving Revelation is that
kind of what what you as you've

352
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,100
been able to pieces together is
that kind of what you sense.

353
00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:44,300
I would I would say so because I
mean we're talking like he

354
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:51,600
started introducing elements of
of the endowment like the signs

355
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,900
and tokens.
He started he started.

356
00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:02,000
Introducing those within four
weeks of becoming a Mason but

357
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,700
there were others.
Like his brother Hyrum who had

358
00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:10,600
been amazing for years and you
know, I don't know.

359
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:16,600
I've heard I've read other books
that say that that and I don't

360
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:24,700
know, this is just speculation,
but that the Joseph's family had

361
00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:28,800
Connection to like the
rosicrucians and I don't, I

362
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,200
don't know.
I've never seen any evidence of

363
00:24:30,208 --> 00:24:33,500
that but there's there's a
bread, a whole book that was

364
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:38,200
making that argument before.
You know, I think a lot of times

365
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,000
people think that When they find
out that there is, you know,

366
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:47,300
some similarities between like
the temple endowment, and then

367
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,200
masonry, I think people
automatically jump to the

368
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,300
conclusion that oh Joseph Smith
ripped, this off, from the

369
00:24:55,300 --> 00:25:00,200
Mason, so to speak.
And I've heard that I've heard

370
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,900
that argument and that really
doesn't mean when people make

371
00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:06,900
that argument, that doesn't
really mean that much to me.

372
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:11,000
Yes.
Because you know so what if the

373
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,600
Lord directed him to that you
know the key wasn't plagiarizing

374
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,600
anything in my book you know a
lot of smile think he was and

375
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,400
realistically and you could
probably speak to this more than

376
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,900
I could.
But but there was a quote that I

377
00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:32,000
had read years ago or heard
years ago back in, you know,

378
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000
your religion days in the LDS
church, if you remember those.

379
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:41,400
And yeah, which was that Joseph
had made some sort of statement

380
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:47,800
about, you know, the Masonic
ceremonies were somewhat

381
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,400
corrupted but they had some sort
of wine, and if you follow, you

382
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,700
know, masonry back, it doesn't
have a real firm start date.

383
00:25:54,700 --> 00:26:00,100
I mean, there's people who make
assumptions but it's an old old

384
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:02,500
system.
Yeah.

385
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:08,900
And so, if That was the case if
there was something you know

386
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:11,900
Echoes of the past so to speak,
right?

387
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:16,500
Well, if Joseph sassier, which
we all raise our hands to the

388
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:21,800
square and a test that he is, we
would see we would expect to see

389
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,200
that him being able to lean back
and kind of be directed by the

390
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,600
spirit and Revelation sake.
Oh wait a second, there's more

391
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,100
to this, right?
So I think I'll just speak for

392
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:35,300
myself.
I think it's an intellectual.

393
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,400
Intellectually lazy way of
explaining.

394
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,700
Some of those similarities
between masonry and the

395
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:45,300
endowment, right?
I don't think there's a lot of

396
00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:50,800
thought given there.
Yeah, but, you know, I've heard

397
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,000
a lot of Mason's Mormon Masons,
who have argued, you know?

398
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:04,500
Well, you know this, This.
You know, masonry started, you

399
00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:08,500
know, in the early 1700s but if
you talk to anybody who's

400
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:12,100
studied multiple as a chair
Traditions, there's elements of

401
00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:16,500
masonry that are a lot older
than the early 1700s and that's

402
00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:18,400
that's undeniable.
There's elements in there that

403
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:22,800
are much, much older.
You know, I don't know.

404
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,400
I don't know.
Personally, that it goes all the

405
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:29,900
way back to Solomon's Temple,
like Brigham Young claimed, but

406
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:35,800
it certainly goes back a lot
further Then, you know, early

407
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:39,500
1700s in Scotland or wherever,
you know, right?

408
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:42,800
It's there's so much older
things and masonry and so, so

409
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:49,500
whether these things were passed
on to Joseph Smith through his

410
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:52,900
family, or through the
Freemasons, obviously, he

411
00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:57,500
recognized something of value in
there and what's he directed by

412
00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:02,300
the Lord, I believe so.
And so I don't have any A

413
00:28:02,308 --> 00:28:05,900
problem with there being a
connection to Freemasonry don't

414
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:10,800
I don't either.
So we kind of veered off on a

415
00:28:10,808 --> 00:28:13,100
tangent.
There we were in Abu Josephson,

416
00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:17,600
the Red Brick Store.
He's starting to do the washing

417
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,500
of feet there again.
Yes, let's continue with that

418
00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:24,200
progression because I think it's
in Abu that we see a real

419
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,200
crystallization of something
that today we as Mormons would

420
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,200
recognize as the endowment.
Yeah.

421
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:38,500
And I mean right from the get-go
he takes nine men and performs

422
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:42,600
the second appointment on them
as well and the bricks or

423
00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:47,900
basically he watches them and
then annoyance them to not just

424
00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:51,400
become Kings and Priests, but
the beacons and produce the

425
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:58,200
shortly after shortly after he
annoys.

426
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,600
He's man then he Does the same
thing like within days for their

427
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,000
wives and seals the wives to
these men as queens and

428
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,300
priestesses as well.
So, you know, we start to see a

429
00:29:10,300 --> 00:29:15,100
lot of stuff starting to take
shape, you know, at this time

430
00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:17,000
period before the temple is
built.

431
00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:22,600
So in I believe, it's during
this time as well, that the

432
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,400
concept of baptisms, for the
Dead.

433
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,000
Come forward, right?
Yes.

434
00:29:28,500 --> 00:29:31,800
The first baptisms for the dead
food place, actually, in the

435
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,400
nabhi temple, so, they don't,
they're not at this point.

436
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:40,300
They're not doing full-on
endowments for the dead.

437
00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:42,100
That doesn't take place until
st.

438
00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:46,600
George Utah, but we're seeing
definitely the concept starting

439
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:52,300
to evolve and Then of course you
know Joseph Smith was martyred

440
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:59,200
in 1844, we just passed the 178
anniversary of his death two

441
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:05,500
days ago and after that, the
Nauvoo Temple is being completed

442
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:10,000
and before they complete it,
they start doing endowments on

443
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,900
in the Attic.
They partition off the room with

444
00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:20,100
curtains and they have like one
section Devoted to be the Garden

445
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:21,900
Room.
The other one to be the, the

446
00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:24,200
celestial room, and they
decorated with plants and

447
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,000
everything.
And I think it's kind of funny

448
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,700
you know that I've been in a
gentleman ceremonies that are

449
00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:35,300
kind of set up you know
temporarily like that with

450
00:30:35,300 --> 00:30:37,900
sheeting across rooms and
everything you know.

451
00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:42,800
But so that's what they're doing
they start they start performing

452
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,300
and be honest and at this time
You know, shortly after the

453
00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:52,000
dedication, they are being
driven out of now view the

454
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:57,200
freedom young is getting ready
to leave and but they are there

455
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,800
are a lot of people there, the
temple who were petitioning for

456
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,900
their accountants.
And so Brigham Young delays

457
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:11,000
leaving for Utah that year by
two weeks and they are working

458
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,400
in the temple.
Ground, the clock doing

459
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,900
endowments, Brigham Young is
Documenting and his journal that

460
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:23,200
he's doing a damn until 3:30 in
the morning and they did like

461
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,800
5,500 endowments who in that?
Two-week period.

462
00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:34,400
So so you know they're busy and
but you know I'm I've always

463
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,000
been fascinated by the Nauvoo
Temple period because it's you

464
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,100
know, we don't really have any
written scripts of what they

465
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:43,700
were doing.
The only thing the closest that

466
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:52,000
we have our Our bolts of people
who describe in detail, what

467
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,300
they went through.
What the experience from the

468
00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:58,100
Atlantic through, through the
engagement by, then they are

469
00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:03,200
doing The Passion Play so to
speak of Adam, any kind of like

470
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,200
what we do in our Indiana but
now but it's not scripted.

471
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,600
You know, they have basic things
that they do.

472
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,100
They you know, they introduced
the the Robes of the priesthood,

473
00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:15,600
they introduced a science tokens
in pain.

474
00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:19,700
Lt's, but it's it's
extemporaneous, you know?

475
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:23,500
They're it differs from session
to session, you know, and I

476
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:26,500
always used to wonder, you know,
why, why don't we have any

477
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:28,700
written accounts?
You know, written scripts of the

478
00:32:28,708 --> 00:32:32,200
navi cannibal because there was
not they were they were winging

479
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,600
it, they were like ad-libbing.
So you know, you could have

480
00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:41,300
Lucifer saying completely
different things during one

481
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:44,600
session as opposed to, to
another one.

482
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,000
And it wasn't until It wasn't
until they got to Utah that the

483
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:53,900
endowment became codified and so
they the temple workers used to

484
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:58,900
just pass down the endowment by
oral tradition from worker to

485
00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:04,400
worker.
And when Brigham Young codified,

486
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,800
the endowment, they were
basically trying to remember and

487
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,700
write down what they had done
in.

488
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,300
Who, previously.
So you know, I remember there's

489
00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:18,500
one account that Whoever was
playing Lucifer during a

490
00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:26,900
particular session was so scary
in the way that he portrayed,

491
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:32,300
Lucifer, that he had.
He had people quaking in their

492
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,300
shoes.
They were so afraid of him.

493
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:36,600
He was so realistic and its
portrayal.

494
00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:39,900
And I kind of like that because
I'm like a drama nerd and the

495
00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:44,600
fact that they were actually
acting, you know, you know, as a

496
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,600
Fundamentalist A lot of the
encounter a sweet banana to at

497
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,000
one point I don't anymore but at
one point I used to have the

498
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:56,600
endowment memorize front to back
totally memorize and, you know,

499
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,900
we'd have endowment sessions and
our Temple workers are reading.

500
00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:02,400
They have a note white notebook
in their hand as they're going

501
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,600
from room to room reading their
parts instead of memorizing them

502
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,700
and that you should just driving
me nuts.

503
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:15,000
And the other thing is that the
would portray their parts

504
00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:18,000
without any degree of emotion or
passion.

505
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:22,100
And the thing is, is that the
endowment is a passion play.

506
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,199
And so, if it's a Passion Play,
there needs to be a passion in

507
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,100
it somewhere.
So, you know, I really

508
00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:31,800
appreciated reading that story
that, you know, that this

509
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,500
Lucifer was so authentic, and
his performance that he scared

510
00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:41,600
people and I think that
something that is super cool to

511
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,199
know, right?
Because I think whether you're

512
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:50,100
coming from an LDS background or
whether you're coming even from

513
00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:54,000
a fundamentalist background,
these today, it's very

514
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,600
regimented and codified and how
it's done, which can be a good

515
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,700
thing to do, right?
Because I mean, it's it's

516
00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:04,900
designed in such a way that it
makes, you know, makes sense, so

517
00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:07,800
to speak, right?
So I'm surely the ad-libbing

518
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,800
portion of that you could get
off on some pretty strange

519
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,400
tangents.
But at the same time, like

520
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,300
you're saying you're losing a
little bit, right?

521
00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:20,100
I don't know that.
That's that's some of the

522
00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:25,900
thoughts I have so real quick.
Joseph knows he's going to die,

523
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,000
right?
I mean, I think we all know that

524
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,000
he gives Brigham Young a very
specific charge, right?

525
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,300
Yes, he does.
What was that charge?

526
00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:39,200
Well, he commissioned him to be
the one to, he said that in

527
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,100
essence, I'm paraphrasing.
He said, the endowment isn't

528
00:35:42,100 --> 00:35:45,800
perfect the way we have it now.
He says, but I'm leaving it up

529
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,700
to you to perfect it, you know,
to do whatever you need to to

530
00:35:49,700 --> 00:35:52,500
perfect it.
So he gave Brigham the

531
00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:58,500
commission. 22, you know
complete the endowment in other

532
00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:02,000
words, you know?
So when this is so the Saints go

533
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,600
to Utah.
And you know, they start

534
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,600
building the temples over there,
they're specifically working on

535
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,900
the scene, torch Temple and
Brigham Young overseas.

536
00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:23,300
A team of writers who actually
write the endowment down in the

537
00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:26,100
Specific Manner.
And I want to go into a little

538
00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:28,400
story.
Is why this is important so-so.

539
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:35,800
I went through a couple of
endowments, while I was visiting

540
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:37,800
a particular fundamentalist
community.

541
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,400
And I'm not going to stay which
one, right?

542
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,600
Because I respect them and I
don't want to, I don't want to

543
00:36:43,607 --> 00:36:46,900
disparage what they're doing.
But you know I mentioned earlier

544
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:49,700
that I have the endowment, I
used to have the endowment

545
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:54,400
memorize frontwards and
backwards and so I go to this

546
00:36:54,400 --> 00:37:01,500
endowment ceremony and it's all
mixed up everything In the

547
00:37:01,500 --> 00:37:04,200
endowment is there but it's out
of order the way they presented

548
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,600
it and it kind of for somebody
who's kind of like slightly OCD

549
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,200
like me, it was grading on me to
have the endowment all mixed up

550
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:17,400
in this line, moved over here.
That part move over here things

551
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:25,000
moved out of order and and what
they were claiming was that they

552
00:37:25,900 --> 00:37:29,600
had the nickname the Manti
version of the endowment that

553
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,200
the version and Manti was A
little bit different than the

554
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:37,500
one in Salt Lake.
And so I thought well, You know,

555
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,700
honestly what I thought that
some of the people in that

556
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:46,500
Community had come from Jim
harms since group the TLC.

557
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:50,100
Okay, Chad.
I was I still don't know for

558
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:53,200
sure but I was willing to bet
that they got their version of

559
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:58,800
the endowment from Jim harmsen
and you know, but they were

560
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,200
seeing Oh, what do you think of
our endowment it slows better?

561
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:06,300
Doesn't it flows better and I'm
thinking, no, it doesn't.

562
00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:13,400
It doesn't Flow Rider at all and
so I did research and I found

563
00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:18,600
some Pioneer journals where, you
know, we're talking like around

564
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,800
1894.
There was a man in the church

565
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:26,100
who recorded in his journal that
he attended, endowments in st.

566
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:30,600
George Salt, Lake, Logan, and
Manti.

567
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:35,100
And he testified that all of
them were the same ordinance

568
00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:36,800
that was done in the Salt Lake
Temple.

569
00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:41,800
The so to me, that was evidence
that this endowment that I went

570
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:47,500
through was, was one of Jim
Halls harm shins alterations.

571
00:38:48,100 --> 00:38:53,100
And, you know, and and that's
one of the reasons why Brigham

572
00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:57,900
Young commission people,
specifically, L John metal.

573
00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:04,700
The start writing the endowment
out because he wanted a Singular

574
00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:08,900
ordinance, for all of the
temples because he was afraid

575
00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:11,600
that one Temple might decide to
pervert the endowment.

576
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,800
So he wanted something uniform
for each Temple.

577
00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:17,500
I got you.
Yeah, I think the words that

578
00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:23,000
Joseph used to Brigham was, you
know, systematizing organized,

579
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:25,900
right?
So you got the feeling from that

580
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:29,100
statement that Joseph saying
look it's all here but it's not

581
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:32,900
perfect yet.
And that's your job is to To, to

582
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:35,200
put it in its proper place so to
speak, right?

583
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:40,000
Make it flow, exactly.
So let me ask you this question

584
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:46,800
because I think this question
has some repercussions behind it

585
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,600
and we're all night, which is
you think at the time that

586
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:54,500
Brigham Young, Finishes the
process of quote systematizing,

587
00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:59,400
and organizing the endowment.
You feel like that, that, that

588
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,000
is the culmination that.
Hey, that's where it's supposed

589
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:03,100
to be.
And that's what it's supposed to

590
00:40:03,107 --> 00:40:08,200
look like.
Yes, yes and no.

591
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,700
I mean you know there that we
can get into this later but

592
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:14,100
there are things like the oath
of Vengeance that I think we're

593
00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:17,300
particular to bring them this
time and not necessarily our

594
00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:23,100
own.
I don't have a problem with

595
00:40:25,500 --> 00:40:29,000
Editions being made down to the,
or me being made to the

596
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:33,600
endowment as long as it's.
Number one, revealed number two

597
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,400
necessary.
But one thing that I disagree

598
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:43,400
with that happened, after
Brigham's death was, you know,

599
00:40:43,700 --> 00:40:47,300
expediency political expediency
being used to soften the

600
00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:50,400
environment.
And to me, that's subtracting

601
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,500
from the invalid, you know?
If somebody has more to add to

602
00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:57,500
it, and it's It's provided by
Revelation.

603
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,600
I don't have a problem with it
but when you're whittling away

604
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,000
at the ordinances just because
you want to be more palatable to

605
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,900
the world than that's when I
have a problem with it.

606
00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:12,900
Well and to be fair, I think I
think we've seen that for quite

607
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:15,900
a while now as Mormons right in
general.

608
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:22,500
So it's like non-stop especially
in the in the in the LDS church,

609
00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:25,500
right?
I mean I think at some point

610
00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:28,300
this thing's going to be a drive
through there where you can

611
00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:31,200
just, you know, go through for
expediency.

612
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,600
So to speak, right?
Yeah, this is.

613
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:36,900
All right.
Well, we're okay, so, so you get

614
00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:37,700
the feeling.
Okay.

615
00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:39,800
Brigham.
You know, Joseph Smith has this

616
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,800
revealed It's kind of taking
shape, you know, as early as

617
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,700
Kirtland, but really starts to
crystallize in Nauvoo.

618
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,800
The Saints, head out west.
Brigham.

619
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,800
How you know tells Nuttall,
let's get this thing to where

620
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,900
it's supposed to be, let's
fulfill Joseph charge to me and

621
00:41:59,900 --> 00:42:01,700
get this thing where it needs to
be.

622
00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:06,000
How long does the endowment as
we know it and all the temple

623
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,100
ordinances, how long do they
continue in the way they should

624
00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:18,100
before you start seeing changes
creep in I think that that there

625
00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:25,800
were alterations as early as
like 1893 they started kind of

626
00:42:25,808 --> 00:42:28,200
trying to soften things.
I think that one of the first

627
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,200
things they did was to take out
Brigham's lecture at the veil.

628
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,500
You know, they still had a
lecture at the bill but it

629
00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:40,900
wasn't Brigham's at that point
and I think that it was Joseph.

630
00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:45,000
F Smith started disagreeing with
the teaching of the atom God

631
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,300
Cochran.
And as we know, Brigham's

632
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,100
Brigham's lecture at the veil is
all about the atom God Doctrine

633
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,100
and still, you know, to this
day, if people want to know

634
00:42:58,100 --> 00:43:00,300
about the atom God doctor, and
I'll direct them to like a

635
00:43:00,308 --> 00:43:03,400
website that I know that has the
lecture at the veil printed and

636
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,300
I'm like, yeah, read this for
yourself because it explains.

637
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:10,000
It fairly simply the atom God,
Doctrine would so important to

638
00:43:10,008 --> 00:43:12,500
the Saints back then and the
Brigham, the deal was part of

639
00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:16,300
the endowment.
Undeniably And what's

640
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:18,600
interesting?
And so you're talking to a guy

641
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,000
that to, you know, I guess three
now I can't remember.

642
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:26,600
Anyway, who's not too far
removed from the LDS church,

643
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:28,100
right?
I'm a guy who converted to the

644
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:32,200
LDS church and now I'm a
fundamentalist, right?

645
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:39,800
But what you see is that You
know what they're doing once you

646
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,300
know what used to be taught,
right?

647
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:46,900
And so Adam God is huge that's
that's one of those things that

648
00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:53,900
really redefines in my opinion
the the mainstream Church in a

649
00:43:53,900 --> 00:43:58,600
big way but it's there all
throughout those higher

650
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,800
ordinances of the temple, right?
It's there through the endowment

651
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,200
especially and so if you're
trying to get rid of that dog,

652
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,500
Drink, it makes sense if that's
where it stopped the, most is in

653
00:44:11,500 --> 00:44:14,500
the temple.
You now have to go to work and

654
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:19,800
trying to gently remove that
without causing too much angst

655
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,700
of the membership.
The problem is, is that once you

656
00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:27,200
understand the atom God
Doctrine, I don't think you can

657
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,300
totally get rid of it, out of
the endowment.

658
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,500
There's always going to be some
ruminant there, right?

659
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:35,400
And as soon as you understand
the atom God, Doctrine really

660
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,200
well.
You're going to be able to pick

661
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:42,000
Get out really quickly.
Yeah, and I think that's one of

662
00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:47,100
your benefits that I don't have.
I was cut off from the LDS

663
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:51,300
church, before I went through
the endowment.

664
00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:55,200
I I was like at that missionary
age where where I got

665
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:59,000
excommunicated before, I was
able to get in day out in the

666
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,200
church.
So I don't have the benefit of

667
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:08,500
you of seeing the LDS endowment.
And I've never seen the movies.

668
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,500
They show that, you know, and
I'm sure they're online.

669
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:16,500
I'm sure that if I wanted to I
could but I've just never taken

670
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:21,300
that opportunity yet so yeah no
it's been interesting.

671
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,100
Just in my kind of just in my 20
years.

672
00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:28,300
I was in the LDS church some
massive changes, right?

673
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:32,500
And it always did bug me, right?
I mean, like look at if you

674
00:45:32,500 --> 00:45:35,200
start doing the math and this
things about making covenants,

675
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,500
right?
Well, why won't my kids end up

676
00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:41,500
making the same?
And Covenants as I do, right?

677
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:47,900
And bring that through in a lot
of questioning, if you will.

678
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,300
So as early as eighteen ninety
three, we start seeing trying to

679
00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:54,300
take out the lecture at the
bail.

680
00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:57,700
Yeah.
What are some of the successive

681
00:45:57,700 --> 00:46:01,400
ones?
Because In my study and maybe

682
00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:03,500
you might have a different
opinion.

683
00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:08,100
But in my study, it seems like
the changes can really slowly

684
00:46:08,100 --> 00:46:10,700
and really softly.
And then in about the last 20

685
00:46:10,700 --> 00:46:14,800
years, It's like, okay.
Now we're going to put our foot

686
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,600
on the accelerator and
completely gut this thing, or I

687
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:24,700
think that, you know, during
reach new hearings which, of

688
00:46:24,700 --> 00:46:28,100
course, we know that, you know,
he was being tried having a

689
00:46:28,100 --> 00:46:32,800
congressional trial because of
his association with the church

690
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,600
and plural marriage.
The endowment, it came,

691
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,900
Something that was under
Congressional scrutiny because

692
00:46:41,900 --> 00:46:48,400
they were trying to find any
evidence that read smooth was a

693
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,400
traitor to the United States.
And one of the things that they

694
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:57,800
focus on was the oath of
Vengeance and of course the oath

695
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:02,100
of Vengeance was where they
promise to never cease praying

696
00:47:02,100 --> 00:47:04,600
for the Lord to avenge, the
blood of the Martyr Drake is

697
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,000
dead.
However, many generations third

698
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:13,400
or fourth generation, you know,
and, you know, if you look at it

699
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:18,200
in context, the saints went
through a log in Missouri and

700
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,400
and losing their profit.
And so of course, they're going

701
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,300
to Greater, you know, his his
blood to be hit.

702
00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:27,600
Enter.
That was part of the temple

703
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:35,100
endowment until Congress brought
the wording of the oath.

704
00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:39,000
You know, they were trying to
put read smooth on the hot seat

705
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:42,700
and it was shortly after that.
That that was one of the first

706
00:47:42,700 --> 00:47:46,300
things that Heber J.
Grant revised was when he became

707
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:49,900
president was removing the oath
of Vengeance and Heber J.

708
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:55,200
Grant did a bunch more.
The penalties were a little bit

709
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:59,300
more gruesome and Heber J.
Grant kind of takes often that a

710
00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:05,200
little bit and then One of the
ones that I found, that was

711
00:48:05,207 --> 00:48:08,200
interesting that and I kind of
wanted to talk a little bit

712
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,000
about this Lucifer.
The choir, you know, when

713
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,200
Lucifer has the pastor, who who
directs the congregation to

714
00:48:16,207 --> 00:48:19,100
seeing they, in the old days,
they used actually used to have

715
00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:24,100
a temple choir that would sing
this song and then, you know,

716
00:48:24,100 --> 00:48:28,800
but one of the changes Heber J
Grant made is that Lucifer is

717
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:34,800
directing the or the the
preacher is directed The

718
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,700
congregation the people who were
recipients of the temple

719
00:48:37,700 --> 00:48:41,800
endowment that be the seeing.
And, you know, one of the things

720
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,900
when I was in the AUB that we
should discuss was that it was a

721
00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:49,500
form of test and I don't know if
this is true or not but it was a

722
00:48:49,508 --> 00:48:53,000
form of test to see who would
follow Lucifer's servant the

723
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,900
preacher and seeing along and he
would remain silent and better

724
00:48:56,900 --> 00:49:01,700
to be men with Greg, don't know,
I didn't stand, you know.

725
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:05,600
And I honestly I honestly
Honestly can't remember my first

726
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,800
endowment well enough to know
whether I saying or not.

727
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,800
I think I probably did, you
know, he's kind of funny that

728
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,500
that's how they interpreted it
and and you know ultimately they

729
00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:19,600
discontinued the existence of
the preacher, all together

730
00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:23,900
rights, like it's offensive to,
you know, mainstream

731
00:49:23,900 --> 00:49:30,500
Christianity but and then one of
the other changes that occurred

732
00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:35,200
around 1923 was the alteration
of the Of the temple garment

733
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:40,000
they created what was called the
street garment, which was to the

734
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,300
elbows instead of all the way to
the wrist and to the knees

735
00:49:44,700 --> 00:49:47,200
instead of all the way to the
ankle.

736
00:49:47,700 --> 00:49:50,100
And this was the Garment that
you were to wear and your

737
00:49:50,100 --> 00:49:52,900
everyday life that then, when
you would go back to the temple,

738
00:49:53,300 --> 00:49:55,100
you would wear the long Garment
of the temple.

739
00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:58,400
Garment once again and that came
that came about during that time

740
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:04,700
period, Hmm.
So there was actually two

741
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:06,800
garments that were used during
that time.

742
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:09,800
Yeah.
And I remember my parents

743
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:14,800
talking about that because my
parents were endowed in the

744
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,900
early 1960s and so they had both
the temple garment industry

745
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:24,200
government and I think it was
like around 1975 76 somewhere

746
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:29,100
where they totally discontinued
the temple garment in favor of

747
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,800
the shorter Street government,
which was now just Garments, not

748
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,900
your street Carmen.
Hey, that's interesting.

749
00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:43,600
So let me ask you this.
Did that take place during Heber

750
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,300
J Grant time.
Or was that during Joseph

751
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,700
Smith's time?
No.

752
00:50:48,700 --> 00:50:54,200
I think I think this is the
alteration of the of the Garment

753
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:58,400
District government was 1923 and
I'm pretty sure that was during

754
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,800
Heber J.
Grant tenure, okay?

755
00:51:02,700 --> 00:51:04,800
Okay.
Wow, you are good at puberty

756
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,100
Grand.
Yeah.

757
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,800
Yeah he seems to be a focal
point of where things really

758
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:18,000
start to go off the rails a
little bit so that that takes us

759
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:24,100
through that 1923 period.
What what are some of the Fall

760
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:27,600
outs that you think you can see
in the changes that were

761
00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:31,500
implemented up to that point?
Well, you know, if we're going

762
00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:37,600
to talk about your Jeep and I
read in, read your clausen's

763
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:45,800
biography that both regular
Claussen and and Heber J.

764
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,500
Grant were part of when they
were young, when they were

765
00:51:48,500 --> 00:51:55,900
teenagers, they were part of a
Movements of literary movements

766
00:51:55,900 --> 00:51:59,900
that was taking place in Salt
Lake at the time among the youth

767
00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:05,400
where they would get together.
Read, poetry, which I don't

768
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:07,300
necessarily think there's
anything wrong with having a

769
00:52:07,308 --> 00:52:10,200
literary Society.
But there was a marked attitude

770
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,200
with this group of young people.
They were embarrassed by plural

771
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:18,600
marriage even though both record
Clawson and Heber J, Grant

772
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,100
became polygamists.
They were both embarrassed.

773
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:24,900
That group of people were By the
principal they were trying to

774
00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:31,500
dress in Paris style Fashions.
I think that they were a group

775
00:52:31,500 --> 00:52:34,200
of people that yearn for the
world and you're in for the

776
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,500
attention of the world.
And I think that attitude

777
00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:42,800
prevailed with Heber J, Grant
alter, you know his adulthood

778
00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:47,300
into his apostleship and
ultimately into the presidency

779
00:52:47,300 --> 00:52:49,500
of the Church.
Of course we know that he's the

780
00:52:49,500 --> 00:52:52,600
one that waged war the most on
on.

781
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:58,700
It's mhm.
And so, you know, I think a lot

782
00:52:58,700 --> 00:53:03,700
of what Heber J Grant did was
trying to become more palatable

783
00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:06,100
to the world and to show the
world that, hey, we're not like

784
00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:09,000
that anymore.
Now we don't, we don't Embrace

785
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,900
this principle anymore, you
know, and Views trying to make a

786
00:53:12,908 --> 00:53:14,800
point.
He was trying to impress people

787
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:19,200
I think and along with that goes
to the softening and the

788
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:26,900
whittling away of our Temple
ceremonies in order to be more

789
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:32,700
favorable to Outsiders, you
know, because a less bizarre

790
00:53:32,700 --> 00:53:35,900
endowment means more converts.
I mean, there's no other way

791
00:53:35,900 --> 00:53:40,300
that you can put it, they want
more converts that they've, you

792
00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:43,200
know, the latest, I know I'm
getting ahead of myself with the

793
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:48,100
latest patch of changes that
took place in the temple in 2019

794
00:53:48,700 --> 00:53:51,500
the church didn't make some
comments, any bones about it or

795
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,200
the base.
We came right out and said that

796
00:53:54,900 --> 00:54:00,500
they put out a questionnaire to
a certain amount of members to

797
00:54:00,500 --> 00:54:02,900
see how they would feel about
making these changes.

798
00:54:02,900 --> 00:54:05,900
It wasn't Revelation, it was
done by committee.

799
00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:10,900
It was you know it was done by a
marketing team, right?

800
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:18,900
So and that's really what is the
most disturbing about some of

801
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:22,800
these changes, right?
I-i'm a guy who believes in

802
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,300
continual Revelation, right,
it's hard to to think that you

803
00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:32,900
can espouse that idea of
continuing Revelation and then

804
00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:36,600
when something new comes out,
just disregard it.

805
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:43,300
But if you change something,
like you were saying, why are we

806
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:46,400
taking things away?
Right.

807
00:54:46,700 --> 00:54:50,300
Right.
Because that doesn't make any

808
00:54:50,300 --> 00:54:52,300
sense with how the Lord works,
right?

809
00:54:52,300 --> 00:54:55,200
And I believe that Joseph Smith
said, if you want to see a mark

810
00:54:55,200 --> 00:55:00,300
of a false prophet, he will do
contradictory to what the

811
00:55:00,300 --> 00:55:05,200
previous Prophet had done.
And it and that's very

812
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:09,200
concerning.
And the other thing is, is that

813
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,200
Because I tend to want to give
everybody the benefit of the

814
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,400
doubt, right?
Even though I think he screws up

815
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:21,400
tremendously, even though I
think he, he does damaged Beyond

816
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,300
repair.
I'm sure that Heber J.

817
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:27,200
Grant thought he was doing the
right thing, right?

818
00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:32,300
I got take the church from this
old Pioneer, you know, bizarre

819
00:55:32,300 --> 00:55:36,300
thing, and bring it into
modernity, right?

820
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,300
And say, I've no doubt, he was
in his mind.

821
00:55:39,300 --> 00:55:42,000
He's thinking Thinking, okay,
I'm doing a great service here

822
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,800
in doing that.
However, he's now kick the door

823
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,500
down in a way that hadn't been
done to that point and if I'm

824
00:55:50,500 --> 00:55:53,200
wrong correct me.
That hadn't been done to that

825
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:59,900
point where Now, I think he said
that presidents that those

826
00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:04,700
changes would begin to become
more drastic and more frequent

827
00:56:04,700 --> 00:56:08,400
within the temple ceremony.
Yeah, exactly.

828
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:14,100
And the thing that I wonder is
what would if Heber J, Grant had

829
00:56:14,100 --> 00:56:18,700
done, had he known How this
would have snowballed if he had

830
00:56:18,700 --> 00:56:20,300
seen the changes that are taking
place.

831
00:56:20,300 --> 00:56:24,600
Now, you know, you even have
teams each helmet and Talmadge

832
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,100
is recognized.
As, you know, like all the more

833
00:56:28,100 --> 00:56:34,200
Progressive You know, Orthodox
Creator, he's the creator of

834
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,900
Orthodox Mormonism.
Unifying pose from Talmadge

835
00:56:36,900 --> 00:56:42,100
saying the temple ordinances
must not be changed and, you

836
00:56:42,100 --> 00:56:46,700
know, I think they are probably
rolling in their graves.

837
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,700
Seeing what has happened to the
church.

838
00:56:48,700 --> 00:56:53,200
Now, you know, I mean, we live
in a day and age an hour, where

839
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,100
according to the modern Mormon
Broussard, McConkey is

840
00:56:56,100 --> 00:57:03,500
considered Antiquated and Almost
even quasi fundamentalists know

841
00:57:03,500 --> 00:57:08,100
you and you're 100% correct.
I remember the last talk I ever

842
00:57:08,100 --> 00:57:09,800
gave?
Me LDS church, I quoted

843
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,600
Broussard and this I think this
is a good, a good measuring

844
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,500
stick.
When I first joined the church,

845
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,600
Right?
And in 1995, everyone's like

846
00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:24,700
read Mormon Doctrine, you can do
no better than get, a copy of

847
00:57:24,700 --> 00:57:29,400
Mormon Doctrine fast-forward 20.
Some years later, I quote,

848
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:35,200
Mormon Doctrine in a talk I give
and I get dragged into The

849
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:39,300
Bishop's office and you know,
like, hey, we don't use that

850
00:57:39,300 --> 00:57:40,900
anymore.
And I'm like, this is good

851
00:57:40,900 --> 00:57:43,300
stuff, bro.
I, you really need to get into

852
00:57:43,300 --> 00:57:46,800
it, right?
And he, he, he was like, yeah.

853
00:57:46,900 --> 00:57:50,700
No, we're not doing that.
So I think you're right.

854
00:57:50,700 --> 00:57:54,400
I think that this just
snowballed out of control.

855
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:03,300
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
And you know, I wanted to point

856
00:58:03,300 --> 00:58:07,300
out one of the things that
Joseph Smith Said repeatedly,

857
00:58:07,300 --> 00:58:12,100
you know, that where there is no
change in order and were there's

858
00:58:12,100 --> 00:58:13,500
you'll have to help me with
this.

859
00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:15,500
I'm not like my friend, Sean
Anderson.

860
00:58:15,500 --> 00:58:18,800
I can't spit quotes out that
this off the top of my head here

861
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,400
loans are for when there is no
change in ordinance, there's no

862
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:27,900
change in priesthood, right?
So, I mean so that, you know,

863
00:58:27,900 --> 00:58:33,600
the flip side of that is where
you, where you have a change of

864
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:40,200
ordinances you Change the preset
and my dad who passed away in

865
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:44,500
2002, you know, he didn't live
to see the changes that have

866
00:58:44,500 --> 00:58:47,900
taken place in the church now,
but he used to say that once

867
00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:50,100
they did away with the
penalties.

868
00:58:51,300 --> 00:58:54,400
That he said that the endowment
was half a loaf.

869
00:58:54,900 --> 00:58:57,200
That when you go went and got
the encountered, all you got was

870
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,900
half a little.
Let's hope, he used to refer to

871
00:58:59,900 --> 00:59:02,400
it.
That would some of the major

872
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:07,900
changes that came about around
1990 1990.

873
00:59:07,900 --> 00:59:11,100
They I mentioned that they
eliminated the part of the

874
00:59:11,107 --> 00:59:15,300
preacher.
They also eliminated Lucifer,

875
00:59:15,300 --> 00:59:19,600
referring to Pope's and priests
because I guess that was

876
00:59:20,300 --> 00:59:28,500
Offensive two popes and Priests.
And, you know, the Dropped a lot

877
00:59:28,500 --> 00:59:31,600
of other things.
The Five Points of Fellowship.

878
00:59:32,100 --> 00:59:36,100
They dropped the penalties.
The penalties were removed

879
00:59:36,100 --> 00:59:45,100
completely and and, you know, I
as, you know, I circulate on a

880
00:59:45,107 --> 00:59:48,900
lot of Mormon circles,
particularly, like a lot of the

881
00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:56,300
ex most circles and with the
portrayal in under the banner of

882
00:59:56,308 --> 01:00:00,300
Heaven of the penalties, you
know, and what they tried to do

883
01:00:00,300 --> 01:00:08,400
is they tried to foreshadow the
use of penalties as as You know,

884
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,200
something pertaining to blood
atonement and something that

885
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:15,000
eventually led to the Lafferty
murders.

886
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,400
And, you know, they've tried to
make it ominous.

887
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:23,200
But, you know, and I wish, I
wish that I had one of my

888
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:28,800
friends here with me, who is
explained that You know

889
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:33,100
penalties that you know a
covenant doesn't mean very much

890
01:00:33,100 --> 01:00:36,700
according to hebraic law unless
there is a Blood Oath attached

891
01:00:36,700 --> 01:00:40,200
to it that it's the Blood Oath,
that makes the the Covenant

892
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:45,600
stronger and it's not supposing
that you would want to have

893
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,300
blood atonement then to you or
that you would want to do blood

894
01:00:48,300 --> 01:00:51,800
atonement, anyone.
It's kind of like an advanced

895
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:56,300
version of Cross My Heart.
Hope To Die.

896
01:00:56,300 --> 01:00:58,100
Stick a needle in my eye, kind
of thing.

897
01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:01,700
You know the you're making a
covenant that I would rather

898
01:01:02,100 --> 01:01:04,700
have this happen to me than
betray my covenants.

899
01:01:05,500 --> 01:01:13,700
And you know It's really hard in
these circles to discuss the

900
01:01:13,700 --> 01:01:18,800
importance of the penalties and
and how much they weekend the

901
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:26,200
endowment by removing those, you
know, and only the only two only

902
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,300
recently remove them is because
they didn't want to offend

903
01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:33,700
people.
Well, and I think, Look, even in

904
01:01:33,700 --> 01:01:36,800
covenants we make with each
other in business, right?

905
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,900
If you enter into a contract
with someone, you're very aware

906
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:45,200
of what happens when you breach
that contract, right?

907
01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:50,400
If you buy a house and you fail
to make your payments well you

908
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:53,300
know they're coming from the for
the house you know that there's

909
01:01:53,300 --> 01:01:56,800
going to be money that you owe
on top of them taking your

910
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:00,500
house, same way with a car, same
way with alone, any of those

911
01:02:00,500 --> 01:02:04,400
things there are Penalties.
So to speak that are enacted.

912
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:10,700
When you, when you breach that
Covenant right now, as you were

913
01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:14,300
saying, I agree with you that
that doesn't mean that you're

914
01:02:14,300 --> 01:02:19,300
begging to be quote blooded
toned or that your want to go do

915
01:02:19,300 --> 01:02:22,300
that, somebody else.
It just drives home the point,

916
01:02:22,300 --> 01:02:23,700
right?
I don't know about you.

917
01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:26,500
When I bought my first car is a
kid, right?

918
01:02:26,500 --> 01:02:30,400
I was probably 18 and I'm
signing my name on that dotted

919
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:34,900
line and I'll never forget this
the gentleman who sold me the

920
01:02:34,900 --> 01:02:36,500
car.
Our he can't put his hand on my

921
01:02:36,500 --> 01:02:38,800
wrist.
He's like understand son, if you

922
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:43,600
do not You know, fulfill your
obligation here.

923
01:02:45,100 --> 01:02:46,600
All these things are going to
happen to you.

924
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:51,200
Listed it out.
Scared me to death, right?

925
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:53,400
From that point forward.
I'm like we're going to pay that

926
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:55,900
thing for days.
You're right that payment.

927
01:02:55,900 --> 01:02:59,300
So it's 40s early because I know
what's attached.

928
01:03:00,100 --> 01:03:04,400
Now that's for a car for car,
right?

929
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:08,500
If you're taking and Covenant,
if you're making a covenant with

930
01:03:08,500 --> 01:03:11,800
God, that has Eternal
ramifications.

931
01:03:12,700 --> 01:03:17,800
It makes sense that hey, there
has to be a mechanism in place

932
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:22,500
to drive home, how important
this is, and that failure to

933
01:03:22,500 --> 01:03:27,200
live up to these will result in
Eternal consequences not blooded

934
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,700
tournament but Eternal
consequence, right?

935
01:03:29,700 --> 01:03:34,100
Exactly, really when you look at
it you can say it's a genius

936
01:03:34,100 --> 01:03:37,900
move in a lot of ways in
respects to those because it

937
01:03:37,900 --> 01:03:40,100
does drive home.
The fact you're on the hook,

938
01:03:40,100 --> 01:03:43,000
bro.
And so you better Walk up to

939
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:48,500
these things right now.
I remember that the in the 90s

940
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:54,800
that there was a journalist who
it was like one of the first

941
01:03:55,100 --> 01:03:59,200
expose, some Temple ceremony
that I came across.

942
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,600
And I can't remember her name
right off hand, but I know that

943
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:06,700
she used to write for Zine
called Phoenix New Times and

944
01:04:06,700 --> 01:04:09,600
Phoenix.
And she wrote an expose of the

945
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:14,000
temple and she had several
chapters dedicated to exposing

946
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:16,100
the Indiana.
When she wrote the book, The

947
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:20,200
whole endowment out for Batum
and published it and was on the

948
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:22,100
best sellers list for a couple
weeks.

949
01:04:22,100 --> 01:04:26,900
And and I always thought that it
was funny that the only part she

950
01:04:26,900 --> 01:04:33,300
didn't write about was where
Lucifer asked, do you sell your

951
01:04:33,300 --> 01:04:39,900
tokens for money?
Because he or she obviously was

952
01:04:39,900 --> 01:04:44,400
he was writing a sensationalist,
you know, overview the temple.

953
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:49,200
And for the sake of money, and
she just neglected to put that

954
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,200
part in there.
Yeah.

955
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:52,200
See that.
Yeah.

956
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,100
You know that one hit close to
home, right?

957
01:04:54,100 --> 01:04:56,700
She got right there to write
that one and went.

958
01:04:57,100 --> 01:04:59,100
Yeah, we're gonna leave that one
out, right?

959
01:04:59,100 --> 01:05:01,300
That one, that one might hit a
little too close to home.

960
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:04,800
So they change.
Go ahead.

961
01:05:05,300 --> 01:05:07,900
Go ahead.
As you say, they change all that

962
01:05:07,900 --> 01:05:13,100
stuff in 1990 seems to be a
benchmark year, so to speak as

963
01:05:13,100 --> 01:05:16,100
far as Temple changes go.
Right, right.

964
01:05:16,700 --> 01:05:21,500
That's where where it really?
I think kicks into high gear

965
01:05:21,500 --> 01:05:23,900
right there and it's a concerted
effort.

966
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:30,000
Where does it go from there?
Well from there I think in 2005

967
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:36,500
they start doing a symbolic
washing anointing instead of you

968
01:05:36,508 --> 01:05:41,300
know an actual washing an
anointing which was bizarre to

969
01:05:41,300 --> 01:05:47,100
me because it was I guess it can
to when the early Christians

970
01:05:47,100 --> 01:05:50,400
stopped doing baptism by
immersion and started

971
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:53,400
sprinkling, you know?
So because that's it essentially

972
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,700
what the washing an anointing
were you know, you Were

973
01:05:57,200 --> 01:06:03,400
sprinkled.
You know, it, so it evolved from

974
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,200
your other days in Malibu when
we were standing in the bathtub.

975
01:06:07,500 --> 01:06:12,600
Being fold on scrubbed and
washed and then Brigham Young

976
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,600
uses to talk about being
anointed so much that he had oil

977
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,700
dripping down into its beard.
You know.

978
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,800
And now it's just a little
simple you know.

979
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:24,500
I don't even know how they can
call it a washing and leading

980
01:06:24,500 --> 01:06:29,800
anymore, you know?
So I don't know if you went to

981
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:32,500
the church to see that
particular change.

982
01:06:32,600 --> 01:06:34,700
So, yeah, I was when I went
through.

983
01:06:34,700 --> 01:06:38,900
It was, you know, the old days
of you put on the Yield and you

984
01:06:38,900 --> 01:06:41,100
were, you were washing the only
kid in.

985
01:06:41,100 --> 01:06:44,200
Then I remember that 2005, man.
That's just gone.

986
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:46,100
Just?
Yeah, no more.

987
01:06:46,100 --> 01:06:50,600
We're not going to do it.
So, let me rest, let me ask you

988
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:52,800
this, right?
That kind of takes us up to

989
01:06:53,100 --> 01:06:55,600
pretty much modern-day, right?
2019?

990
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,900
Some things happen that really
concerns, right?

991
01:06:59,900 --> 01:07:02,300
And this is where I hid my
point, right?

992
01:07:02,300 --> 01:07:05,900
And, and to be fair, I've
already dabbled at this point in

993
01:07:06,100 --> 01:07:08,500
should sleep, dabbled.
I was living plural marriage for

994
01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:12,600
five or six years but you know,
I was more than dabbling.

995
01:07:12,700 --> 01:07:14,500
I took that bad boy and goes
deep.

996
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:21,100
Anyway, I I see the changes that
are made and I'm trying to be

997
01:07:21,100 --> 01:07:24,300
super respectful here.
But there are some changes that

998
01:07:24,300 --> 01:07:30,900
are made that directly.
Affect how the family unit is

999
01:07:30,900 --> 01:07:34,500
supposed to function.
Yeah and I have some strong

1000
01:07:34,500 --> 01:07:37,400
opinions on them, the gold.
My beloved here, that go ahead.

1001
01:07:37,700 --> 01:07:44,000
Okay so basically I don't know
exactly what the wording is but

1002
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:48,800
they change the law of obedience
where where I was going.

1003
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:49,700
Yep.
Yeah.

1004
01:07:49,700 --> 01:07:56,200
Well were the the husband
covenants to obey the law of God

1005
01:07:56,700 --> 01:07:59,600
and the wife covenants to obey
the law of her husband?

1006
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:05,400
And you know, my opinion on that
is that they totally, you know,

1007
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:10,000
I have a lot of things, right?
I love semantics looking at it

1008
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:12,700
so it doesn't say what they
think.

1009
01:08:12,700 --> 01:08:17,200
It says in that particular
scripture or that particular

1010
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:21,000
Covenant.
I mean the husband covenants to

1011
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:26,700
obey the law of God The wife
isn't covenanting Convent and

1012
01:08:26,700 --> 01:08:29,200
Ting.
That's it doesn't roll off the

1013
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:31,600
tongue that easily the wife
isn't coming any making a

1014
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:35,399
covenant to obey your husband.
She's governing to obey the law

1015
01:08:35,399 --> 01:08:37,500
of her husband.
And what's the law of her

1016
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:40,500
husband?
Logger has been his log dog,

1017
01:08:40,500 --> 01:08:43,399
right.
So she's not coming any, she's

1018
01:08:43,399 --> 01:08:45,700
not making a covenant.
I don't know why I'm having a

1019
01:08:45,700 --> 01:08:48,800
hard time with that word.
Haven't you done made covenants

1020
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:51,800
to obey your husband at all.
She's coming.

1021
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:55,000
Making a covenant.
Say Mr. Hudson obey the law of

1022
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:58,800
God.
So the change in my estimation

1023
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:04,899
was redundant because you know
She's already making that

1024
01:09:04,899 --> 01:09:09,000
Covenant, you know, but they
have to soften the language

1025
01:09:09,300 --> 01:09:15,600
because they're trying to keep
member to and appease people who

1026
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:18,700
are protesting with that new to
in my estimation of completely

1027
01:09:18,700 --> 01:09:20,800
misunderstood what the
government is saying.

1028
01:09:21,300 --> 01:09:25,700
Absolutely, I remember this was
such a hard point for me and

1029
01:09:25,700 --> 01:09:28,500
this that did crystallized when
I did leave.

1030
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:35,600
Zach that one instant was enough
for me to say, I'm done.

1031
01:09:36,399 --> 01:09:39,399
I'm done now, it's a bridge too
far.

1032
01:09:39,700 --> 01:09:42,700
I was willing to live with some
of the other stuff once my

1033
01:09:42,700 --> 01:09:46,000
plural marriage went to hell in
a handbasket and I was, I was

1034
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,399
willing to go back to the LDS
church and be like, I'm just

1035
01:09:48,399 --> 01:09:51,200
gonna sit in the back and just
going to do my thing, didn't

1036
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:52,700
work out.
That way, I always got put into

1037
01:09:52,700 --> 01:09:56,800
some sort of leadership calling
but of course, of course.

1038
01:09:56,800 --> 01:10:02,200
Right?
Anyway, Excuse me, when that

1039
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:04,700
change happens.
That was my Breaking Point.

1040
01:10:04,900 --> 01:10:08,700
That's when I was like, yeah,
we're done, right?

1041
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:12,300
At this point.
It's becoming a full-out mockery

1042
01:10:12,700 --> 01:10:16,000
right now.
If you didn't know you would

1043
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:18,700
cry, if you didn't know what
what it was supposed to look

1044
01:10:18,700 --> 01:10:22,900
like, you wouldn't know, but I
remember I went in and I talked

1045
01:10:22,900 --> 01:10:28,800
to my My priesthood leader.
So to speak in the earliest

1046
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:30,200
church I just said, look, I'm
done.

1047
01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:31,600
And he said, well, why are you
done?

1048
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,800
Can you explain to me?
He's like further Sanders are,

1049
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:37,600
are you having a faith crisis?
I'm like yes, but not the way

1050
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:41,500
you think, right?
Like my pride you're gonna be

1051
01:10:41,500 --> 01:10:44,200
really you know I believe too
much.

1052
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:47,100
I think right?
And so I tell them about my

1053
01:10:47,100 --> 01:10:49,700
problem.
I have with this and I remember

1054
01:10:49,700 --> 01:10:53,000
he he looked at me and he said
well, brother Sanders.

1055
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:56,300
I mean, don't you think that
covers Inant could have been

1056
01:10:56,300 --> 01:11:02,800
used to to oppress women.
I was like, yeah.

1057
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,700
I think it totally could be used
for their absolutely could be.

1058
01:11:05,700 --> 01:11:09,200
Yeah, but just because that's
going on you don't change a

1059
01:11:09,208 --> 01:11:12,300
covenant, right?
I used to really like to, you

1060
01:11:12,300 --> 01:11:16,400
know, screw around and you know
before I joined the church, I

1061
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:21,800
blood Mission.
I was a man-whore right II was

1062
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,400
pretty wild, right?
You wouldn't change a lot

1063
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:28,100
Chastity just Had some men who
were struggling to live it.

1064
01:11:29,500 --> 01:11:32,400
Right.
But we're okay doing this and he

1065
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:35,800
wouldn't he didn't have anything
to say at that point, but I'm

1066
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:39,000
like it doesn't carry water and
and to me.

1067
01:11:40,500 --> 01:11:43,700
That was the first time I saw
something.

1068
01:11:43,700 --> 01:11:46,300
I couldn't kind of explain away,
right?

1069
01:11:46,300 --> 01:11:49,900
Like okay, this this is black
and white.

1070
01:11:49,900 --> 01:11:53,200
Now they have they have far
exceeded anything.

1071
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:57,400
I can do my mental gymnastics
for Bread.

1072
01:11:58,100 --> 01:12:01,200
So that, that was it for you
then, huh?

1073
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:03,700
That was it.
I was like later days.

1074
01:12:03,700 --> 01:12:08,100
Peace out, deuces.
I'm I'm not participating

1075
01:12:08,100 --> 01:12:10,700
anymore.
Yeah, that was just three years

1076
01:12:10,700 --> 01:12:12,200
ago.
Can you imagine what's name?

1077
01:12:13,700 --> 01:12:15,600
Well, like I said, I think
you're just going to go up and

1078
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:17,400
order a number 7.
The drive-through.

1079
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:23,600
I think that's that's the
logical progression but Okay, so

1080
01:12:23,700 --> 01:12:26,500
that takes us up to pretty much
modern-day, right?

1081
01:12:26,500 --> 01:12:29,100
That's that's the bulk of where
we're at now.

1082
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:32,500
A bunch has been taken away.
A punch has been changed.

1083
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:36,800
Let's talk about the Fallout
from that for a second, Marina.

1084
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:42,200
What do you think the Fallout is
going to be two members of the

1085
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:44,700
mainstream LDS church?
And let's talk even further

1086
01:12:44,700 --> 01:12:46,700
back.
What what's been the Fallout of

1087
01:12:46,700 --> 01:12:50,200
not participating in those
correct ordinances?

1088
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:56,200
Well, as far as consequences is
that what you're talking about?

1089
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:04,400
Well, I think that the
diminishes Their priesthood.

1090
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:08,500
And the MPR, the endowment that
we were talking about from on

1091
01:13:08,500 --> 01:13:12,300
high that Joseph Smith was
Joseph Smith already laid out

1092
01:13:12,300 --> 01:13:14,400
the formula for being endowed
from on high.

1093
01:13:14,900 --> 01:13:17,300
You know what is it that we
learn in the in the temple?

1094
01:13:17,300 --> 01:13:20,500
We learn how to approach the
face of God and communicate

1095
01:13:20,500 --> 01:13:26,400
directly with them and you're
taking that completely away, you

1096
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:31,500
know, I'm not going to be one.
Who's going to say that the That

1097
01:13:31,500 --> 01:13:36,200
the church endowment is
completely invalid, you know,

1098
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,100
because I've heard that among
other fundamentals, I'm not

1099
01:13:39,100 --> 01:13:42,900
going to say that.
It's completely invalid because

1100
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:46,100
you know, it says, right in
Doctrine and Covenants section,

1101
01:13:46,100 --> 01:13:50,100
132 that the Lord, all honors
all you know, covenants,

1102
01:13:50,100 --> 01:13:53,500
contracts, bonds, Etc.
There's still making a covenant

1103
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,000
but you know I'm not gonna lie.
I think that.

1104
01:13:57,500 --> 01:14:02,700
I think that it's greatly
diminished and You know, if

1105
01:14:02,700 --> 01:14:06,000
there is any area where the
church has diminished their

1106
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:11,400
ability to function in the
priesthood, it's in the changing

1107
01:14:11,500 --> 01:14:14,900
of the ordinances you know.
I know it says it right in

1108
01:14:14,900 --> 01:14:20,800
Isaiah you know that you know
that they of course I'm

1109
01:14:20,800 --> 01:14:24,700
paraphrasing again but
transgressed the law and change

1110
01:14:24,700 --> 01:14:27,200
the ordinance and broke the new
and Everlasting Covenant broke

1111
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:31,200
the Everlasting Covenant.
You know, we like to say We're

1112
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:35,900
for Isaiah saw, our day will
Isaiah's our date, you can't

1113
01:14:35,900 --> 01:14:39,100
break the Everlasting Covenant
and change the ordinances unless

1114
01:14:39,100 --> 01:14:43,300
you had them.
And sadly I think that's exactly

1115
01:14:43,300 --> 01:14:48,400
where the church is right now.
So it's so interesting to me

1116
01:14:48,400 --> 01:14:52,400
that as I read back in
scripture, right?

1117
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:55,900
And you look at human beings
back then and you look at human

1118
01:14:55,900 --> 01:14:57,800
beings.
Now we're not that much

1119
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:00,300
different.
I think we like to think we are.

1120
01:15:00,700 --> 01:15:03,600
Right.
I think we like to look at folks

1121
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:06,700
in the Old Testament who screwed
up royally and go.

1122
01:15:07,200 --> 01:15:11,700
How could they have done that?
But I think we're doing it right

1123
01:15:11,700 --> 01:15:16,800
now or have up to this point
again done the same thing,

1124
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:22,400
right?
If we go back to Moses, right?

1125
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:25,800
And Moses and Joseph Smith
points, this out and teachings

1126
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,500
of the Prophet Joseph Smith
where he's like, come up to come

1127
01:15:29,500 --> 01:15:33,300
up the mountain with me.
You can see God, you can't

1128
01:15:33,300 --> 01:15:36,100
exactly come.
See God with with me, right?

1129
01:15:36,100 --> 01:15:39,000
Come on, let's go.
And everyone's like, hell no,

1130
01:15:39,900 --> 01:15:43,100
you go ahead Moses, we're good,
right.

1131
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,100
I think it's very much.
The same thing that we're seeing

1132
01:15:46,100 --> 01:15:47,100
with the temple.
Now.

1133
01:15:47,300 --> 01:15:49,900
Right now, obviously Moses
times.

1134
01:15:49,900 --> 01:15:52,100
There were certain covenants
they would have to fulfill the

1135
01:15:52,100 --> 01:15:57,200
see the face of God.
Yes, likewise, if you look at

1136
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:00,400
the entire endowment ceremony,
it's doing two things.

1137
01:16:00,400 --> 01:16:04,300
It's teaching you about Adam God
because realistically that puts

1138
01:16:04,300 --> 01:16:08,400
you in your place in
relationship to God and then

1139
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:13,000
it's teaching you how to commune
with him right again.

1140
01:16:13,100 --> 01:16:15,100
Sarah: let's go up and let's see
the face of God.

1141
01:16:15,500 --> 01:16:17,500
No I'm good.
Thanks bro.

1142
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:23,300
Right and so we're doing the
same thing over again and it

1143
01:16:23,300 --> 01:16:25,500
took me a long time.
To wrap my head around this

1144
01:16:25,500 --> 01:16:28,900
because I used to think.
Okay, so we know in the in the

1145
01:16:28,900 --> 01:16:31,600
Primitive church and in the Old
Testament New Testament times

1146
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:35,100
and during early on in the
restoration, there's all these

1147
01:16:35,100 --> 01:16:37,900
Miracles that are being
performed.

1148
01:16:38,700 --> 01:16:41,100
Where are they?
Now, you hear about anecdotally

1149
01:16:41,100 --> 01:16:43,000
every once in a while but not to
the scale.

1150
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:47,900
There were, it took me forever
to to make the connection.

1151
01:16:48,500 --> 01:16:51,400
Well, if we're not living up to
the same Covenant, I don't think

1152
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:55,000
we can expect the same blessing.
Yeah.

1153
01:16:55,100 --> 01:16:56,900
Yeah.
At this point and you can

1154
01:16:56,900 --> 01:16:58,900
correct me if I'm wrong here at
this point.

1155
01:16:58,900 --> 01:17:02,300
I think I got to say look for
anyone who doesn't know these

1156
01:17:02,300 --> 01:17:06,200
things and are making covenants
sincerely in an LDS temple.

1157
01:17:06,500 --> 01:17:09,300
Walk up to those covenants,
right?

1158
01:17:09,300 --> 01:17:12,300
You're making those covenants
and there is some effective

1159
01:17:13,900 --> 01:17:16,300
Exactly.
I think you hit it right on the

1160
01:17:16,308 --> 01:17:19,500
head.
And that's the whole reason we

1161
01:17:19,500 --> 01:17:24,700
build temples is so that we can
have communion with God face to

1162
01:17:24,700 --> 01:17:29,200
face.
And you know, why are we messing

1163
01:17:29,200 --> 01:17:35,800
with the formula, right?
Well, to be fair, I think

1164
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,600
there's a lot of messing with
the formula right now, right.

1165
01:17:39,100 --> 01:17:44,800
I've looked at what's so I won't
say who I work for most people

1166
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:49,500
are, you know what I do?
But I do some work on the Salt

1167
01:17:49,500 --> 01:17:53,400
Lake Temple and I saw what
they're doing to it and it

1168
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:58,600
occurs to me that we're getting
the new Coke of Mormonism right

1169
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:01,000
now.
You remember, you remember Old

1170
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:04,600
Co can you come over after it
was I thinking I'm old enough to

1171
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:06,500
remember that.
Yeah, I think we're getting new

1172
01:18:06,500 --> 01:18:09,200
Coke Mormons, right?
I think that's what we're

1173
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:13,600
signing up for right now, and
it's looking a lot more.

1174
01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:19,200
Like, like just, I don't know,
just another church.

1175
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:21,000
I guess with some really fancy
buildings.

1176
01:18:21,500 --> 01:18:24,400
Well, this is a whole purpose of
having fundamentalism because

1177
01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:29,900
we're a group of people who are
trying to keep the old ways,

1178
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:33,800
including the endowment alive,
on the face of the Earth, right?

1179
01:18:35,100 --> 01:18:37,800
You bring up in, and that brings
me to another question.

1180
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:44,300
Do you think there's any group
or or independent Cooperative?

1181
01:18:44,300 --> 01:18:46,400
So to speak?
I guess that, that have the

1182
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:48,800
original ordinances.
It was revealed to Joseph, and

1183
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:52,300
then perfected by Brigham.
I don't think anybody has

1184
01:18:52,300 --> 01:18:55,900
anything perfected.
I think that that like Isaiah

1185
01:18:55,900 --> 01:18:58,200
said, there's vomit on all
tables.

1186
01:18:58,400 --> 01:19:02,100
But, you know, and I really
can't speak for the experience

1187
01:19:02,100 --> 01:19:06,100
of a lot of the other groups,
because I Haven't participated

1188
01:19:06,100 --> 01:19:10,500
in them or in any of their
ceremonies, that I come from the

1189
01:19:10,500 --> 01:19:18,500
AUB and the AUB for years, you
know, a lot of the

1190
01:19:18,500 --> 01:19:22,600
fundamentalists organizations,
back in the believe that their

1191
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:26,600
commission was only plural
marriage and United order

1192
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:31,000
basically and they felt that
their mandate was not to exceed

1193
01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:33,800
or do anything that the church
was doing in and of itself.

1194
01:19:33,900 --> 01:19:38,900
Elf.
So a lot of them, a lot of them.

1195
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:44,200
Would send their children to the
LDS church to receive their

1196
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:52,500
endowments and it wasn't until
1978 when the priesthood ban and

1197
01:19:52,500 --> 01:19:54,900
Temple ban was lifted that they
felt will.

1198
01:19:54,900 --> 01:19:56,600
Hey maybe we can't send our kids
to their.

1199
01:19:57,500 --> 01:20:05,500
And so the a you beasts started
doing The temple ceremony around

1200
01:20:05,500 --> 01:20:10,500
like 1982 and you know there's a
whole story behind that they

1201
01:20:11,200 --> 01:20:13,800
tried to get scripts.
They managed to smuggle some

1202
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:17,700
scripts from the church.
They bought materials from Fred.

1203
01:20:17,700 --> 01:20:22,400
Collier they did everything that
they could to assemble a working

1204
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:27,100
script and basically it's very
similar to the 1870s.

1205
01:20:27,100 --> 01:20:29,400
I have the same sort of
ceremony, but it's not exactly

1206
01:20:29,400 --> 01:20:35,200
the same, you know?
But it's More in many respects

1207
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:39,400
and they started in them.
And of course I got a broke off

1208
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:46,800
from the and so the people that
I split off with we're doing

1209
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:51,900
endowments and had an endowment
house and I've done endowments

1210
01:20:51,900 --> 01:20:58,200
from inside a living rooms
inside of endowment houses, you

1211
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:02,900
know, anywhere and everywhere
that we could and I was set up.

1212
01:21:03,100 --> 01:21:09,600
Art as a temple or her for the
better part of 20 years and I've

1213
01:21:10,500 --> 01:21:13,500
attended dammit ceremonies with
other groups.

1214
01:21:14,500 --> 01:21:19,500
I visited the group's, you know?
Like yeah, I saw that.

1215
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:27,800
But the flds built the temple
over in Texas and I don't really

1216
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:32,000
know what they do and their
Temple beyond the kind of scary

1217
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:35,700
stories that I hear.
But every time I've ever talked

1218
01:21:35,700 --> 01:21:39,100
to somebody from the flds, they
really don't understand almost

1219
01:21:39,100 --> 01:21:43,700
anything about Temple work.
And I went up to visit Winston,

1220
01:21:43,700 --> 01:21:47,500
Blackmore's group up in Canada,
several years ago.

1221
01:21:47,700 --> 01:21:51,200
And I talked to some of the
young people there that I would

1222
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:53,900
say is, Being invaded know
anything about any in Democrats

1223
01:21:53,900 --> 01:21:58,900
and the way they view it is that
in the flds that whatever

1224
01:21:58,900 --> 01:22:02,100
version of the Indiana went they
had you know, what is for the

1225
01:22:02,100 --> 01:22:06,900
elite only?
And so they kind of written off

1226
01:22:07,500 --> 01:22:10,400
a border to something
unnecessary because the

1227
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:13,000
something that warm just was
doing a month easily.

1228
01:22:13,500 --> 01:22:18,900
So you know, I know that some of
the people from the LeBaron

1229
01:22:18,900 --> 01:22:21,800
tradition, you know, like this
bit specifically, the Russell

1230
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:25,300
Berrie tradition that been doing
a type of endowment for a while.

1231
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:29,900
I know the Christchurch has been
doing an endowment so so I am

1232
01:22:29,900 --> 01:22:34,100
familiar that some people are
perpetuating these things but I

1233
01:22:34,108 --> 01:22:38,800
don't know to what degree and
what level and you know because

1234
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:41,800
there's a lot of fundamentalist
at don't do any sort of

1235
01:22:41,808 --> 01:22:45,800
endowment work and I myself
haven't done endowment work for

1236
01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:52,400
about 7 years now, just because
I'm completely isolated and so,

1237
01:22:53,900 --> 01:22:59,500
In your mind where were you?
You kind of think okay nobody

1238
01:22:59,500 --> 01:23:04,300
has has it the way it probably
should be over, all right they

1239
01:23:04,300 --> 01:23:08,200
can get it close probably they
can dial it in kind of tight.

1240
01:23:09,100 --> 01:23:11,900
At what point you see that
getting fixed or do you think

1241
01:23:11,900 --> 01:23:17,300
that there is Maybe Criteria
within the endowment that is

1242
01:23:17,300 --> 01:23:20,800
like absolutely necessary and
then everything else can be kind

1243
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:23,200
of negotiable.
I mean, what do you see there?

1244
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:25,800
How do you, how does that work
for you?

1245
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:31,800
And in your mind Well, heart, I
think that we're going to

1246
01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:37,900
correct the endowment.
We have to have a place built

1247
01:23:38,700 --> 01:23:43,100
where the Lord can come and
correct us and you know, that's

1248
01:23:43,100 --> 01:23:46,000
kind of a you know, me making
that statement is a lot more

1249
01:23:46,000 --> 01:23:48,600
controversial in a lot of
fundamentalist circles.

1250
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:52,100
And a lot of people realize
Excuse me.

1251
01:23:56,200 --> 01:24:00,200
You know, in the ayoubi.
They built the temple down in

1252
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:03,200
Mexico.
They have an endowment house in

1253
01:24:03,200 --> 01:24:08,500
Salt Lake, but they are still
afraid to move forward and do

1254
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:13,500
more Temple work because they
still clean to the what we

1255
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:16,200
commissioned that don't do
anything with the church was

1256
01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:20,500
doing and they prayed for the
temple doors would be open.

1257
01:24:21,200 --> 01:24:24,800
And I've always been of the
opinion that Mormons are always

1258
01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:31,800
a temple building people and
and, and, you know, if we build

1259
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:36,600
temples Is that not having the
temple doors open to us, if we

1260
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:40,200
build our own?
But you know if we were going to

1261
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:45,200
be set in order got to have a
place where the Lord can come

1262
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:48,600
and direct us first so that's
just my opinion.

1263
01:24:49,500 --> 01:24:55,700
Yeah I think you're probably
right in the sense that Look.

1264
01:24:55,700 --> 01:24:58,700
I think when the Lord comes down
to correct his people, I think

1265
01:24:58,700 --> 01:25:02,100
there's going to be a lot of
mainstream LDS people.

1266
01:25:02,100 --> 01:25:06,100
I think there's going to be a
lot of fundamentalist everywhere

1267
01:25:06,100 --> 01:25:09,400
in between where we're all like
yeah, I probably screwed that

1268
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:11,000
one up, right?
That one's on me.

1269
01:25:11,500 --> 01:25:16,500
So I don't I tend to be a little
more inclusive on this than

1270
01:25:17,500 --> 01:25:21,400
Perhaps a lot of other people
that I associate with or

1271
01:25:21,400 --> 01:25:24,500
whatever because I think I just
don't know.

1272
01:25:24,500 --> 01:25:27,900
If at this point we can get it
exactly back to what it was in

1273
01:25:27,900 --> 01:25:35,300
1877, right.
I think that it's just Just not

1274
01:25:35,300 --> 01:25:39,900
going to happen.
Now, having said that Because

1275
01:25:41,500 --> 01:25:45,000
the things I read in scripture
and and certain things I have

1276
01:25:45,000 --> 01:25:51,200
felt during prayer, I think that
the Lord just doesn't deal with

1277
01:25:51,700 --> 01:25:59,000
the X's and O's of of any
certain script, right.

1278
01:25:59,300 --> 01:26:02,300
I think he's looking at the
heart a little bit here and this

1279
01:26:02,300 --> 01:26:03,800
is where we have to think so
too.

1280
01:26:04,100 --> 01:26:05,900
I think this is where we have to
have faith.

1281
01:26:05,900 --> 01:26:08,700
That okay.
Is it better to not participate?

1282
01:26:08,900 --> 01:26:14,700
Paint at all because you don't
have a perfect understanding, or

1283
01:26:14,700 --> 01:26:18,900
is it better to at least make
those covenants with God?

1284
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:21,900
And then, that least put you in
a position to be schooled along

1285
01:26:21,900 --> 01:26:25,400
the way, right?
Wherever that leads right in

1286
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:27,500
bright, you have to maintain the
spirit of the wall.

1287
01:26:28,200 --> 01:26:34,400
Exactly, exactly.
And so I think sometimes out of

1288
01:26:35,900 --> 01:26:37,700
I'll probably just apprehension
right?

1289
01:26:37,700 --> 01:26:40,100
Like Koch, I'm not sure.
I should be doing this outside

1290
01:26:40,100 --> 01:26:46,200
of, you know, sanctioned areas
that that we kind of cut

1291
01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:50,400
ourselves off a little bit.
Well, I think it's generally

1292
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:56,800
among most fundamentalist.
I've known they are afraid to

1293
01:26:57,100 --> 01:27:04,700
err on the side of doing too
much and I think that I'm more

1294
01:27:04,700 --> 01:27:10,500
afraid of erring on the side of
doing too little I would agree

1295
01:27:10,500 --> 01:27:12,200
with you.
Joseph Smith said no man will

1296
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:15,700
ever be damned because he
believed too much, right?

1297
01:27:17,100 --> 01:27:19,100
All right.
Are you there?

1298
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:22,700
Yeah yeah you blanked out for a
second sorry.

1299
01:27:23,200 --> 01:27:28,100
Yeah no I just I'm with you II
kind of err on the side of

1300
01:27:29,600 --> 01:27:34,600
Approach toward right.
We saw what happened children of

1301
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:36,000
Israel?
I didn't pan out.

1302
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:38,400
I think we just need to approach
the Lord more.

1303
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:42,900
Yeah.
So I think that we probably need

1304
01:27:42,900 --> 01:27:47,100
to talk about the biggest change
in the temple for me anyway.

1305
01:27:47,700 --> 01:27:51,400
Yeah, yeah, we're here.
So we get into it, so we get it.

1306
01:27:51,500 --> 01:27:54,200
All right, folks, I'll pull up,
here we go.

1307
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:59,200
All right, so it's like the
monkey on her back, so to speak.

1308
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:01,300
It really is, it's the elephant
in the room.

1309
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:06,500
It's the one that everybody
whether you're mainstream LDS,

1310
01:28:06,500 --> 01:28:10,500
whether you're a fundamentalist,
there is a certain amount of

1311
01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:13,300
Change to this next subject,
right?

1312
01:28:13,400 --> 01:28:18,100
And right, I've always said just
only, right?

1313
01:28:18,100 --> 01:28:21,500
Let's just get it out there.
Let's flush it out and let's go

1314
01:28:21,500 --> 01:28:24,500
with it.
So, what is that to you?

1315
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:26,900
What is the weather?
There would have to be the

1316
01:28:26,900 --> 01:28:34,400
biggest change of the temple.
Would be 1978 the lifting of the

1317
01:28:35,100 --> 01:28:41,500
priesthood.
Ban and the temple pan upon

1318
01:28:42,600 --> 01:28:45,800
people of the African
persuasion.

1319
01:28:46,400 --> 01:28:50,700
No one wants to talk about this.
No no everybody everybody.

1320
01:28:50,700 --> 01:28:54,600
Clams up about it and everybody.
Avoids is the subject and I'm a

1321
01:28:54,600 --> 01:28:59,300
firm believer that that it needs
to be addressed directly and

1322
01:28:59,300 --> 01:29:02,200
confronted directly right now.
We can't.

1323
01:29:02,700 --> 01:29:06,300
We're so afraid, you know?
And I think the generally

1324
01:29:06,900 --> 01:29:11,400
Mormons are very passive
aggressive, and they don't like

1325
01:29:11,400 --> 01:29:14,900
saying things overtly.
That might be offensive and so

1326
01:29:14,900 --> 01:29:17,600
their remedy is to just not talk
about it, ignore it.

1327
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:21,100
You know, we are kind of a
dysfunctional family in that

1328
01:29:21,100 --> 01:29:25,000
way, right?
We really are rather than just

1329
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:27,300
have that awkward and
comfortable conversation.

1330
01:29:27,700 --> 01:29:30,200
We're totally cool with just
letting it sit for this

1331
01:29:30,200 --> 01:29:32,600
Thanksgiving and we'll have it
next Thanksgiving.

1332
01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:36,700
So, but you know, look, I'm sure
I'm going.

1333
01:29:36,800 --> 01:29:39,500
To say some things here that
it's going to get me in some

1334
01:29:39,500 --> 01:29:43,300
trouble.
And look, I made a promise to

1335
01:29:43,300 --> 01:29:44,300
God.
A long time ago.

1336
01:29:44,300 --> 01:29:45,500
That I was going to follow
truth.

1337
01:29:45,500 --> 01:29:47,800
No matter where it went.
Right?

1338
01:29:47,800 --> 01:29:50,400
Yeah.
And, and if this is one of those

1339
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:52,200
things that I have to die on
this hill.

1340
01:29:52,700 --> 01:29:55,600
So be it.
I'm I'm I'm ready for that.

1341
01:29:56,500 --> 01:30:01,600
So 1978 prior to.
Okay, but let's back up here and

1342
01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:04,000
I'm going to kind of sum up to
1978.

1343
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:05,700
You can tell me if I'm incorrect
here.

1344
01:30:06,800 --> 01:30:12,000
Are 219 set prior to Brigham
Young's tenure as president of

1345
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:16,800
the LDS Church.
Joseph Smith, did in fact

1346
01:30:18,100 --> 01:30:21,600
ordained to Men of African
descent.

1347
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:26,900
One was Elijah able who was the
other Walker lose, sidewalker.

1348
01:30:26,900 --> 01:30:29,600
Little thank-you to the
priesthood.

1349
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:32,300
Yes.
Brigham Young.

1350
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:39,900
Then becomes profit of the LDS
church and he then places a band

1351
01:30:40,200 --> 01:30:44,200
that that no longer can men of
African.

1352
01:30:44,400 --> 01:30:48,300
In the scent, be given the
priesthood or into the temple.

1353
01:30:49,900 --> 01:30:58,000
And then that takes root and
holds all the way to 1978 and

1354
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:05,700
then 1978 the LDS church then
goes in and says, That soap.

1355
01:31:06,300 --> 01:31:10,100
Now, African-American men can
hold the priesthood and they can

1356
01:31:10,100 --> 01:31:13,500
enter the temple.
Yes, if you're comfortable, tell

1357
01:31:13,500 --> 01:31:16,300
me what your thoughts are on
that whole history and where we

1358
01:31:16,300 --> 01:31:18,100
are now.
Okay.

1359
01:31:18,100 --> 01:31:20,300
Well, you and I have kind of
talked a little bit about this

1360
01:31:20,800 --> 01:31:29,000
and I think that I think it's
pretty hard to tell my thoughts

1361
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:31,100
on this without telling my
story.

1362
01:31:32,300 --> 01:31:34,200
Right.
Of what I went through and I'm

1363
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:37,600
willing to do that even though
it's kind of difficult to get

1364
01:31:37,600 --> 01:31:44,400
this out.
So so 1978 the the ban on blacks

1365
01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:46,900
holding the priesthood and
entering the temple is lifted

1366
01:31:47,700 --> 01:31:50,900
for my dad.
You talked about how 2019 was

1367
01:31:50,900 --> 01:31:54,400
the proverbial straw.
That broke the camel's back for

1368
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:57,800
you for my dad.
It was 1978.

1369
01:32:00,100 --> 01:32:01,700
You know, he had been raised in
the church.

1370
01:32:01,700 --> 01:32:05,900
He was a temple Dali, Mormon,
but he had fundamentalist

1371
01:32:05,900 --> 01:32:08,200
leanings.
And when that happened, he

1372
01:32:08,400 --> 01:32:10,800
stopped attending.
He never went to the temple

1373
01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:15,000
again after that.
And, you know, he attended

1374
01:32:15,000 --> 01:32:17,100
church for about another 10
years before his

1375
01:32:17,100 --> 01:32:20,200
excommunication.
But but, you know, and I used to

1376
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:24,200
tell my dad, I'd say, why do I
have to go to church?

1377
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:26,900
You don't go to church.
And he'd say, well, someone

1378
01:32:27,500 --> 01:32:29,700
until you've Studies as much
into the gospel.

1379
01:32:29,700 --> 01:32:33,400
As I have, you'd have to go to
church.

1380
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:35,700
He says, until that time that
you've studied as much as I

1381
01:32:35,700 --> 01:32:38,400
have, you know, you just have to
go.

1382
01:32:38,900 --> 01:32:43,200
And so anyway, so we become
animals.

1383
01:32:43,300 --> 01:32:47,100
Okay, fundament.
And one of the first experiences

1384
01:32:47,100 --> 01:32:49,100
I had.
I associated with some

1385
01:32:49,100 --> 01:32:54,700
Independence before I joined the
aeb, and I know that I know that

1386
01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:59,500
my friend Sean Anderson on one
of Recent post talked a little

1387
01:32:59,500 --> 01:33:01,700
bit about the same time period
because we went through it.

1388
01:33:01,700 --> 01:33:07,800
We experienced huge amounts of
racism because we are mixed race

1389
01:33:08,200 --> 01:33:13,400
for both half Mexican.
We both have white fathers and

1390
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:16,900
Mexican Mothers and so I, you
know, growing up in Arizona.

1391
01:33:16,900 --> 01:33:21,100
I had never experienced being on
the receiving end of racism

1392
01:33:21,800 --> 01:33:26,800
until I moved to Utah and I have
to say even though my dad

1393
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:34,900
believed in the priesthood ban,
He always always. um, taught us

1394
01:33:34,900 --> 01:33:36,900
to respect other people about
the races.

1395
01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:41,800
He didn't tolerate any, he
didn't tolerate us a man wear or

1396
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:43,900
anything like that, and then I
get to Utah.

1397
01:33:44,300 --> 01:33:47,500
And it's the n-word just about
every other word, from coming

1398
01:33:47,500 --> 01:33:49,900
out of a lot of people's mouths.
And that was hard for me.

1399
01:33:50,100 --> 01:33:51,500
That was really, really hard for
me.

1400
01:33:52,300 --> 01:33:59,400
So anyway, so we joined a UB and
broke off from the, a be went

1401
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:01,200
out on our own.
We had a small community

1402
01:34:01,500 --> 01:34:04,200
gathered in Arizona, I was
living in the United order.

1403
01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:12,600
Back then and we had a family
that came trying to communicate

1404
01:34:12,600 --> 01:34:19,500
with us and it was a guy who was
in The Av but he had met online.

1405
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:28,100
A lady of Polynesian descent.
She was half Samoan and half an

1406
01:34:28,100 --> 01:34:32,600
hour T.
And while he was in the EB, he

1407
01:34:33,700 --> 01:34:38,900
tried to get it himself sealed
to this woman but the priesthood

1408
01:34:38,900 --> 01:34:42,300
Council in the AV is bouncing
back and forth on whether they

1409
01:34:42,700 --> 01:34:45,700
should seal her.
And now I had grown up in an

1410
01:34:45,700 --> 01:34:48,000
area that didn't have any
Polynesians when I got to.

1411
01:34:48,500 --> 01:34:51,900
When I got to Utah.
All the fundamentalist for

1412
01:34:51,900 --> 01:34:57,100
saying that the Polynesians fell
under the curse of King just

1413
01:34:57,100 --> 01:35:01,400
like the Africans did.
And because I didn't know any

1414
01:35:01,400 --> 01:35:03,800
better.
I just went along with it, okay?

1415
01:35:03,900 --> 01:35:06,600
You know, It kind of look like
they do, you know?

1416
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:10,400
So anyway my dad was like the
timing.

1417
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:12,200
So this is this got they got a
hold of me.

1418
01:35:12,200 --> 01:35:16,700
He wanted to have a ceiling
performed with this woman from

1419
01:35:17,100 --> 01:35:19,600
New Zealand, who was a
Polynesian descent.

1420
01:35:20,100 --> 01:35:24,800
So I took it to my dad and my
dad kind of just said well he

1421
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:28,100
said this is a sticky situation.
He said they would be better if

1422
01:35:28,100 --> 01:35:29,500
we kind of just left this one
alone.

1423
01:35:29,500 --> 01:35:32,900
So I actually wrote this guy
back and said sorry you don't

1424
01:35:32,900 --> 01:35:39,500
have a place here with us. and,
And then my dad passed away in

1425
01:35:39,500 --> 01:35:42,200
the interim.
And then this guy, this guy kept

1426
01:35:42,200 --> 01:35:45,700
writing to me in writing to me
and basically pleading to come

1427
01:35:45,700 --> 01:35:49,800
and have fellowship with this.
He had been thrown out of the

1428
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:59,400
AUB, he wanted to find, he
wanted to be sealed and so I he

1429
01:35:59,400 --> 01:36:01,000
said something that resonated
with me.

1430
01:36:01,000 --> 01:36:04,700
He said, all I tried to get from
the auv was righteous judgment

1431
01:36:04,700 --> 01:36:07,300
and they wouldn't give it to me.
And when he said that that

1432
01:36:07,300 --> 01:36:11,600
resonated with me that, yeah, we
did have to judge this situation

1433
01:36:11,600 --> 01:36:16,800
accordingly, so I invited him
out.

1434
01:36:16,900 --> 01:36:22,700
So he showed up at one of our
conferences, and when I saw his

1435
01:36:22,700 --> 01:36:25,500
car, pull up, but we were all
standing outside of our building

1436
01:36:25,500 --> 01:36:28,000
or Chapel house.
And we were watching him pull up

1437
01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:33,800
and he got the car this white
dude and then his Polynesian

1438
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:39,500
wife gets out of the car and I
took.

1439
01:36:41,000 --> 01:36:45,300
I took one look at her and I
thought, oh, there's no problem

1440
01:36:45,300 --> 01:36:48,600
there at all.
But I guess a lot of other

1441
01:36:48,600 --> 01:36:53,400
people in our community.
Even family members of mine took

1442
01:36:53,400 --> 01:36:55,100
one look at her and they thought
the opposite.

1443
01:36:55,100 --> 01:37:00,500
They saw these Takin innate and
and so there was a debate that

1444
01:37:00,500 --> 01:37:04,600
instantly ensued in our
community about whether or not

1445
01:37:04,600 --> 01:37:08,100
to To accept them in our
community.

1446
01:37:08,100 --> 01:37:10,100
And so they moved they moved to
the area.

1447
01:37:10,500 --> 01:37:13,300
And honestly we took too long
and making a decision.

1448
01:37:13,300 --> 01:37:16,500
They were there for three years
and nobody was making a decision

1449
01:37:16,900 --> 01:37:19,900
as whether to fulfil at Foley
Fellowship them or not.

1450
01:37:20,400 --> 01:37:28,100
And so I was a young man and so
I was I was assigned by our

1451
01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:31,900
priesthood Council to
investigate the situation and so

1452
01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:37,900
I started studying History
church history specifically.

1453
01:37:38,500 --> 01:37:43,700
I was researching the fact that
that the Polynesians have a long

1454
01:37:43,700 --> 01:37:49,800
history in the LDS church that
Joseph Smith sent missionaries

1455
01:37:49,800 --> 01:37:52,700
to the Cook Islands shortly
after the church was founded.

1456
01:37:53,500 --> 01:37:57,900
Brigham Young sent missionaries
to Tonga and and by the way this

1457
01:37:57,900 --> 01:38:01,900
woman she also had children that
their father was talking and and

1458
01:38:01,900 --> 01:38:05,200
their children were teenagers
and they were Associating with

1459
01:38:05,200 --> 01:38:10,600
our young people.
And and so, you know, I came

1460
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:15,600
across lots of things church,
history, and hung out over for

1461
01:38:16,200 --> 01:38:19,500
pumpkins and people in the Cook
Islands when the missionaries

1462
01:38:19,500 --> 01:38:22,200
were forts, for whatever reason
to pull out of those areas that

1463
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:24,400
they left reach of leadership in
charge.

1464
01:38:25,200 --> 01:38:30,400
And those Saints gathered, a lot
of those common things gather to

1465
01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:35,600
Utah and moved the Thule.
And you know so So, you would

1466
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:38,600
think that if there was a
problem with their lineage like

1467
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:41,900
the fundamentalist for teaching
that that would have come up a

1468
01:38:41,900 --> 01:38:47,000
long time ago with Brigham Young
and other other people that were

1469
01:38:47,008 --> 01:38:49,800
teaching.
So I even went to New Zealand,

1470
01:38:49,800 --> 01:38:55,200
this couple invited me to New
Zealand with them and I went to

1471
01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:59,100
like a South Pacific
anthropological Museum.

1472
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:08,000
I went to Hamilton.
Amazing one and I photocopied in

1473
01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:12,100
the lobby, they had different
testimonies of different.

1474
01:39:12,100 --> 01:39:16,800
Now D people who had prophecies
that the priesthood would come

1475
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:20,800
into their midst and they have
these prophecies for like almost

1476
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:23,100
50 years before the first Mormon
missionaries showed up.

1477
01:39:23,700 --> 01:39:29,700
And so So what I did is that I
assembled this packet of

1478
01:39:29,700 --> 01:39:33,500
information that I gathered in
New Zealand and that I had

1479
01:39:33,500 --> 01:39:38,200
gathered in church history books
and I presented this information

1480
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:41,900
to our priesthood Council and
what I gave it to them.

1481
01:39:42,700 --> 01:39:46,300
They completely rejected the
information all except for one

1482
01:39:46,300 --> 01:39:52,000
man and this particular man had
a steps on who was engaged to

1483
01:39:52,008 --> 01:39:55,400
one of these Polynesian girls.
And so he got the idea to do it.

1484
01:39:56,200 --> 01:40:01,800
DNA tests.
And so, when he did the DNA test

1485
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:07,600
on, one of these Polynesian
girls, It, it turned out that

1486
01:40:08,800 --> 01:40:13,800
they were, I can't remember the
exact percentages, but it was

1487
01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:22,000
like, it was like thirty percent
European 30%, Asian 20%.

1488
01:40:23,200 --> 01:40:25,600
Native, American 0% sub-Saharan
African.

1489
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:28,500
I don't remember the exact
percentages, but it was 0%

1490
01:40:28,500 --> 01:40:31,800
sub-Saharan African.
So, so that showed us right

1491
01:40:31,800 --> 01:40:37,000
there that there was no question
with them being Canaanite, so to

1492
01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:43,000
speak.
And what happened is that a

1493
01:40:43,000 --> 01:40:45,300
wedding was performed.
The ceiling was performed for

1494
01:40:45,300 --> 01:40:51,000
this couple and what ensued was,
you know, we used to have a

1495
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:54,900
chapel on the Upper Floor of the
Had a prayer room where we would

1496
01:40:54,900 --> 01:40:57,400
meet every Sunday and perform
the to order pair.

1497
01:40:58,700 --> 01:41:04,000
When we got there that the loss
of just been changed, it was

1498
01:41:04,000 --> 01:41:06,000
like a super passive-aggressive
move.

1499
01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:09,000
That that's how we were informed
that we were excommunicated.

1500
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:11,600
They just change the locks so
that none of us could get into

1501
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:15,200
the prayer room and then they
released all of its former

1502
01:41:15,200 --> 01:41:17,800
callings.
It really needs to my wife who

1503
01:41:17,800 --> 01:41:20,700
had been primary presidents or
10 years from her calling

1504
01:41:20,700 --> 01:41:24,500
without even telling her I had
Been a Sunday school teacher for

1505
01:41:24,500 --> 01:41:26,800
the Youth for 10 years, a
release me.

1506
01:41:27,200 --> 01:41:29,100
Just called somebody else to the
position.

1507
01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:34,300
And so we we found ourselves
completely separated because we

1508
01:41:34,300 --> 01:41:37,900
had invited a Polynesian family
into our midst.

1509
01:41:37,900 --> 01:41:40,000
And it was, it was painful for
me because it remembers my

1510
01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:42,400
family that were on the other
side of the split, okay?

1511
01:41:42,900 --> 01:41:48,700
But It was worth it for me
because I learned something

1512
01:41:48,700 --> 01:41:54,300
about Polynesian culture and
church history in that regard.

1513
01:41:54,300 --> 01:42:00,700
And so that lesson was valuable
to me, so, years later the

1514
01:42:00,700 --> 01:42:03,900
person who had done the DNA test
started suggesting that we do

1515
01:42:03,900 --> 01:42:08,700
the DNA chess on ourselves and
so.

1516
01:42:09,700 --> 01:42:13,200
So we did a DNA test on my
daughter.

1517
01:42:14,100 --> 01:42:17,400
Set the DNA test fit of this
part.

1518
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:21,000
Sounds a little bit weird but
I'm going to tell it anyway but

1519
01:42:21,900 --> 01:42:28,200
so After we turn the DNA test,
my wife, and I went to Utah for

1520
01:42:28,200 --> 01:42:30,300
family reunions and all the way
back.

1521
01:42:30,300 --> 01:42:35,700
We stopped by Rockland, Ranch
and at Rockland Ranch, we were

1522
01:42:35,700 --> 01:42:38,200
guests at somebody's house and
they put us back in the day.

1523
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:41,500
This is where they have the
homes that are drilled out of

1524
01:42:41,500 --> 01:42:43,400
the Rocks.
There's a switch.

1525
01:42:44,700 --> 01:42:50,900
So anyway they invited us they
invited us.

1526
01:42:52,300 --> 01:42:54,300
To stay in one of their back
bedrooms.

1527
01:42:54,700 --> 01:42:57,700
And when I say this room was
dark, it was, there was no

1528
01:42:57,700 --> 01:43:02,600
windows, you're in a cave, it
was 100% black, it was like

1529
01:43:02,600 --> 01:43:08,200
being in a In a sensory
deprivation tank.

1530
01:43:08,200 --> 01:43:12,100
So that night we want to do by
the way.

1531
01:43:12,200 --> 01:43:15,000
I mean that that to me, sounds
absolutely awesome.

1532
01:43:15,000 --> 01:43:18,200
But yeah, I'd like it too if I
could just get over the

1533
01:43:18,200 --> 01:43:20,400
claustrophobia thing.
Right.

1534
01:43:20,500 --> 01:43:23,600
Right now, those sound cool.
Sorry I didn't mean to interrupt

1535
01:43:23,600 --> 01:43:24,400
go ahead.
So.

1536
01:43:24,400 --> 01:43:28,700
So anyway that night I had an
experience one of the only the

1537
01:43:28,700 --> 01:43:31,300
only experiences that I've had
and I don't know whether it was

1538
01:43:31,300 --> 01:43:35,700
an angel or Spirit or something,
but a woman came to me.

1539
01:43:35,700 --> 01:43:41,300
Me and I was awake because I sat
up in bed for this experience

1540
01:43:41,300 --> 01:43:44,000
and I touched my eyeballs to
make sure I was awake.

1541
01:43:44,600 --> 01:43:47,900
But there was a woman standing
at my bedside dressing white.

1542
01:43:47,900 --> 01:43:52,100
And she had like a glow around
her and she never said anything

1543
01:43:52,100 --> 01:43:55,000
to me, but she kept showing me
certain scenes.

1544
01:43:55,200 --> 01:43:57,700
She showed me several things,
most of them, which I didn't

1545
01:43:57,700 --> 01:43:59,500
remember.
But there were three that I did

1546
01:43:59,900 --> 01:44:03,300
and each scene, she showed me
three times, and the first one

1547
01:44:03,300 --> 01:44:08,800
was a skull.
And then the next one was a room

1548
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:13,900
full of people and you could see
people as far back as you can as

1549
01:44:13,900 --> 01:44:16,900
far back as the eye could see.
And then the next thing you

1550
01:44:16,900 --> 01:44:22,500
showed me was a line of seeing
coming out of the sky and as

1551
01:44:22,500 --> 01:44:25,300
soon as it's and hit the did the
ground, it started tracing a

1552
01:44:25,300 --> 01:44:30,000
spiral pattern.
And after she showed me each

1553
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:32,600
scene, she would look at me with
significance.

1554
01:44:32,700 --> 01:44:34,800
She wouldn't say anything but
you give me like a meaningful.

1555
01:44:34,900 --> 01:44:37,500
You look like, you get it, you
get it.

1556
01:44:37,700 --> 01:44:38,800
You get what?
I'm strong you.

1557
01:44:40,800 --> 01:44:44,500
So after the experience ended, I
wasn't scared.

1558
01:44:44,700 --> 01:44:49,400
I just turned I rolled over and
went to sleep and you know, the

1559
01:44:49,400 --> 01:44:53,800
next morning, I didn't have any
phone range, you know, any cell

1560
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:57,200
service in the UK.
So as soon as we left and we're

1561
01:44:57,200 --> 01:44:59,300
driving down the road, I called
a good friend of mine.

1562
01:44:59,300 --> 01:45:01,000
Who's really good at dream,
interpretation?

1563
01:45:01,000 --> 01:45:04,800
She's not even Mormon, I said,
okay, I had this experience.

1564
01:45:05,200 --> 01:45:08,000
Can you tell me what it means?
Can you interpret this for me?

1565
01:45:08,600 --> 01:45:13,000
And she said, okay.
She said filled eyes did this

1566
01:45:13,000 --> 01:45:15,300
poll?
That's company death, right?

1567
01:45:15,400 --> 01:45:19,900
It's called means death.
And she said, actually no, she

1568
01:45:19,900 --> 01:45:22,400
said that could actually mean
knowledge.

1569
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:25,600
I said, okay.
So what about the room full of

1570
01:45:25,600 --> 01:45:31,500
people and she said that's your
ancestors and I said okay the

1571
01:45:31,600 --> 01:45:34,100
sand coming out of the sky
tracing the spider web pattern

1572
01:45:34,100 --> 01:45:36,600
on the ground.
And she said, oh, that's easy,

1573
01:45:36,700 --> 01:45:39,300
that's DNA.
I said, huh?

1574
01:45:39,300 --> 01:45:44,400
Okay, so we drove from Rockland
Ranch back to Arizona and we got

1575
01:45:44,400 --> 01:45:46,400
back right as the sun was
starting to set.

1576
01:45:46,400 --> 01:45:51,400
And and the first thing is that
we did is I pulled up to the

1577
01:45:51,400 --> 01:45:55,200
house and the man who had done
the DNA test was waiting on the

1578
01:45:55,200 --> 01:46:01,900
porch with my DNA results in
hand. and so I'm like, okay and

1579
01:46:01,900 --> 01:46:04,800
when I looked at it, it's like
my heart saying because, you

1580
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:15,000
know, I'm Mexican, my wife is is
Japanese and and, and it came

1581
01:46:15,000 --> 01:46:17,700
up, you know, certain percent
Native American certain percent

1582
01:46:17,700 --> 01:46:23,200
Asian and then it came up a
certain percent Nigerian and my

1583
01:46:23,200 --> 01:46:28,600
heart sank when I saw the and
and I was like that can't be.

1584
01:46:28,600 --> 01:46:30,100
I know, I hope the priesthood,
you know.

1585
01:46:30,900 --> 01:46:35,200
And so I went home that night
and I remember I tossed and

1586
01:46:35,200 --> 01:46:38,600
turned all night, you know, and
everything to me at that point.

1587
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:43,100
Felt like a lie that, you know,
I had quote, Gene, and a blood

1588
01:46:43,800 --> 01:46:47,300
and, you know, and of course,
most of Mormon fundamentalist

1589
01:46:47,300 --> 01:46:51,400
believe in the one drop rule.
So I'm thinking, gosh, can I

1590
01:46:51,400 --> 01:46:53,800
everything that I've ever?
Believed is a lie, you know?

1591
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:57,700
And, and I went on like that for
two nights, too. it's I was

1592
01:46:57,700 --> 01:47:04,800
tossing and turning and just
disturbed by this and then then

1593
01:47:05,900 --> 01:47:10,200
I started remembering the Lord
brought to mind instances in my

1594
01:47:10,200 --> 01:47:15,200
life where I had experienced
directly the priesthood in my

1595
01:47:15,200 --> 01:47:18,600
use of the priesthood and I
started remembering different

1596
01:47:18,600 --> 01:47:23,600
things and I remember that some
in my family had the attitude.

1597
01:47:23,600 --> 01:47:26,900
You know, all the DNA test is
wrong because I know I hold the

1598
01:47:26,900 --> 01:47:32,800
priesthood and my attitude was
well, I know I hold the

1599
01:47:32,800 --> 01:47:36,200
priesthood.
I know I hold the priesthood

1600
01:47:36,200 --> 01:47:40,100
because well I know that I hold
the priesthood in spite of the

1601
01:47:40,100 --> 01:47:44,100
DNA of evidence even though it
whether it's true or not true.

1602
01:47:44,100 --> 01:47:47,000
I know that I hold the
priesthood and so that got me to

1603
01:47:47,000 --> 01:47:51,600
start to question things and so
I.

1604
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:55,800
So anyway, so what happened in
our community is that some in

1605
01:47:55,800 --> 01:47:58,900
our community started to take a
dim view at it, they wanted to

1606
01:47:58,900 --> 01:48:01,500
start excluding us from
priesthood functions.

1607
01:48:02,200 --> 01:48:06,300
So we met as a community, every
endowed member of our community

1608
01:48:06,300 --> 01:48:12,200
met together to decide what to
do about it and and we came to

1609
01:48:12,200 --> 01:48:20,000
the conclusion that we should.
We should. until there's

1610
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:23,300
evidence, one way or the other,
we should be able to continue to

1611
01:48:23,300 --> 01:48:29,900
function in the priesthood and
And but some of the community

1612
01:48:29,900 --> 01:48:33,500
didn't like that, some kind of
started trying to take measures

1613
01:48:33,500 --> 01:48:35,200
to prevent us from
participating.

1614
01:48:36,300 --> 01:48:40,100
And so I started you know what
this did?

1615
01:48:40,100 --> 01:48:43,600
Is it created an impetus for me
to start studying the the

1616
01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:47,900
priesthood band, why it was
implemented, how it was amended

1617
01:48:48,300 --> 01:48:56,100
and I found that Things are not
as we think as far as the

1618
01:48:56,100 --> 01:49:00,700
priesthood ban, the like you
brought that up Walker Lewis and

1619
01:49:01,800 --> 01:49:06,300
and a light table, you know,
these are men that are very,

1620
01:49:06,500 --> 01:49:10,100
we're very obviously ordained to
the priesthood and Elijah able

1621
01:49:10,100 --> 01:49:15,200
functioned in the priesthood
way, into the way into the

1622
01:49:15,200 --> 01:49:16,900
latter, half of the 19th
century.

1623
01:49:17,000 --> 01:49:20,000
In Salt Lake, he was still
listed in the roles as a 70.

1624
01:49:20,700 --> 01:49:22,900
It was never his creatures with
never rescinded.

1625
01:49:22,900 --> 01:49:27,200
No, sometimes I also tell you
that it was but I started

1626
01:49:27,500 --> 01:49:31,400
researching what happened and I
couldn't find any evidence.

1627
01:49:32,000 --> 01:49:37,500
That Joseph Smith had directly
talk Restriction on priesthood

1628
01:49:37,500 --> 01:49:39,100
from the people of the African
race.

1629
01:49:39,100 --> 01:49:43,900
I couldn't find it at all.
There were things that I thought

1630
01:49:44,100 --> 01:49:47,400
that said that, like, pearl of
great price.

1631
01:49:47,900 --> 01:49:50,700
But the more you examine, it
doesn't say exactly what we

1632
01:49:50,700 --> 01:49:54,100
think.
It says, it says that, you know,

1633
01:49:54,200 --> 01:50:00,600
pharaoh who was, you know, the
the son of a gyp Des that he was

1634
01:50:00,600 --> 01:50:03,000
at that race.
That was cursed pertaining, the

1635
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:06,900
priesthood. , Not having the
rights to the priesthood.

1636
01:50:08,600 --> 01:50:11,900
I used to think that that meant
that they had no right at all to

1637
01:50:11,900 --> 01:50:14,100
hold the priesthood but that's
not what it says it all.

1638
01:50:14,100 --> 01:50:17,000
If you look at it it says that
they didn't have the rights to

1639
01:50:17,000 --> 01:50:22,100
the priesthood which according
to hebraic tradition indicates

1640
01:50:22,200 --> 01:50:25,700
Birthright.
So they were just not of the

1641
01:50:25,700 --> 01:50:28,900
birthright lineage, but it
doesn't say anything about them

1642
01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:31,400
being restricted from holding
the priesthood.

1643
01:50:31,700 --> 01:50:36,100
And so I started researching
more What's all that Brigham?

1644
01:50:36,100 --> 01:50:40,700
Young data, territorial
legislation?

1645
01:50:43,700 --> 01:50:49,300
Session in 1852 and Utah to try
to decide whether or not they

1646
01:50:49,300 --> 01:50:53,400
were going to continuously.
Every Orson Pratt who didn't

1647
01:50:53,400 --> 01:50:59,700
believe in generational curses
was fiercely against slavery and

1648
01:51:00,500 --> 01:51:03,800
I believe that Brigham Young
when he made that speech and

1649
01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:08,200
1852 about the blacks, not
holding priesthood that it was a

1650
01:51:08,208 --> 01:51:11,100
knee-jerk reaction to him being
upset with Orson Pratt.

1651
01:51:11,100 --> 01:51:15,500
I'm convinced that it that he
was just Well, Orson Pratt says

1652
01:51:15,500 --> 01:51:16,800
this.
Well guess what?

1653
01:51:16,800 --> 01:51:21,600
They can't hold the priesthood
and then you jump forward, I

1654
01:51:21,608 --> 01:51:24,700
can't remember the year, it's
either 1872 or 1874.

1655
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:30,200
They Revisited it and they did a
test case among the saints.

1656
01:51:30,700 --> 01:51:35,500
And he tried to establish that.
Joseph Smith had caught it and

1657
01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:39,500
they hinged their testimony
around 70, cold, friends

1658
01:51:39,500 --> 01:51:42,900
testimony.
And if you examine Zebedee,

1659
01:51:42,900 --> 01:51:45,800
coltrane's testimony.
Joseph Smith teaching it he

1660
01:51:45,800 --> 01:51:47,800
doesn't even say that he heard
Justin Smith teacher.

1661
01:51:47,800 --> 01:51:50,900
He said that he heard he was
going to when he was on his way

1662
01:51:50,900 --> 01:51:55,200
to science camp in Missouri.
That he heard another brother

1663
01:51:55,500 --> 01:51:59,000
say that Joseph Smith had caught
it so it's hearsay.

1664
01:51:59,900 --> 01:52:05,200
And in Mormonism, we talk about
all things established by the

1665
01:52:05,200 --> 01:52:09,900
mouth of two or more witnesses.
And yet Debbie cauldrons gear

1666
01:52:09,900 --> 01:52:14,900
say was enough to basically
establish this and My opinion,

1667
01:52:14,900 --> 01:52:20,300
as you know I have more
questions than I do answers in

1668
01:52:20,300 --> 01:52:22,100
regard to this.
I'm still trying to study this

1669
01:52:22,100 --> 01:52:24,100
out.
I'm still trying to figure it

1670
01:52:24,100 --> 01:52:29,800
out but you know, if the
salvation and exaltation of an

1671
01:52:29,800 --> 01:52:35,000
entire race of people are
hinging in the balance than we

1672
01:52:35,000 --> 01:52:38,900
deserve it to them and to each
other to ask the hard questions.

1673
01:52:38,900 --> 01:52:44,100
And finally, put this whole
question to the test and Have

1674
01:52:44,100 --> 01:52:47,200
discussions about it and that's
kind of where I'm at right now.

1675
01:52:47,200 --> 01:52:51,100
We need to talk about it because
it's not cut and dry, it's not

1676
01:52:51,200 --> 01:52:54,700
super clear.
No and and here's where I'm

1677
01:52:54,700 --> 01:52:59,700
going to Go Renegade once again,
right?

1678
01:52:59,700 --> 01:53:06,600
If I'm a guy that just sits down
and looks at the evidence Yeah,

1679
01:53:07,900 --> 01:53:13,400
the evidence ways against this
idea of a priesthood and Temple

1680
01:53:13,400 --> 01:53:16,500
Band.
It banged, it just does.

1681
01:53:18,300 --> 01:53:24,400
I think, I think you're right in
the sense that I think in this,

1682
01:53:24,400 --> 01:53:27,900
pains me to say, because I love
bringing, hey, identify more

1683
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:31,300
with Brigham than I can with
Joseph because Joseph is like,

1684
01:53:31,300 --> 01:53:34,100
way better than I am.
And I can see some folks in

1685
01:53:34,100 --> 01:53:38,500
Brigham, right.
Just because Is he he's

1686
01:53:38,500 --> 01:53:43,000
short-tempered like I can be and
stubborn that like I can be look

1687
01:53:43,100 --> 01:53:46,800
what you said about knee-jerk
reaction, totally makes sense.

1688
01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:50,100
Let's not forget Brigham and
Orson are fighting over the atom

1689
01:53:50,100 --> 01:53:52,800
God Doctrine at this very same
moment.

1690
01:53:53,200 --> 01:53:55,600
Right?
Okay.

1691
01:53:57,000 --> 01:53:59,300
Yeah.
We have to have these

1692
01:53:59,300 --> 01:54:05,300
conversations because otherwise
we're doing, what?

1693
01:54:06,000 --> 01:54:09,800
what some of the lamanites did
in the Book of Mormon where we

1694
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:15,300
just hold to Vain traditions,
because their traditions, Yeah,

1695
01:54:16,100 --> 01:54:19,600
and I feel like that these
conversations are crucial.

1696
01:54:20,300 --> 01:54:25,900
I also think we have to be, you
know, honest with ourselves in

1697
01:54:25,900 --> 01:54:28,000
our history and looking at it,
right?

1698
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:31,900
Yeah.
And we have to question with

1699
01:54:32,500 --> 01:54:34,900
intent of getting the right
answer.

1700
01:54:34,900 --> 01:54:39,900
Not the answer we want.
Yeah he cured your renaissance

1701
01:54:39,900 --> 01:54:46,500
man because as we as we, if we
start from the supposition of,

1702
01:54:46,800 --> 01:54:50,900
this has always been true and
we're going to hold to whatever

1703
01:54:51,600 --> 01:54:53,900
this is.
We will find a way to justify

1704
01:54:53,900 --> 01:54:56,500
it.
I'm walking proof of that.

1705
01:54:56,600 --> 01:55:00,700
I Justified staying in the LDS
church way too long with a

1706
01:55:00,700 --> 01:55:04,900
series of mental gymnastics that
would make any gold medalist

1707
01:55:05,100 --> 01:55:13,000
envious. and in some, in not, in
some respects, in every respect,

1708
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:18,300
I am where I am now because of a
Pursuit Of Truth Right?

1709
01:55:18,600 --> 01:55:22,400
And if that puts me on, on the
outside, looking in, I'll take

1710
01:55:22,400 --> 01:55:25,300
it because I can at least stand
before God with a clear

1711
01:55:25,300 --> 01:55:27,400
conscience.
And and say, I didn't Buckle.

1712
01:55:28,400 --> 01:55:31,500
Yeah, on this.
I stood, well, I think, if

1713
01:55:31,500 --> 01:55:36,800
people are offended or, or
unwilling to, to ask the hard

1714
01:55:36,800 --> 01:55:43,100
questions, then most likely,
they're not approaching their

1715
01:55:43,100 --> 01:55:45,800
belief in this from a confidence
can point to begin with.

1716
01:55:47,400 --> 01:55:49,700
No and see.
That's where I'm at.

1717
01:55:49,700 --> 01:55:53,500
You know, it's like, I'm think
I'm totally independent right

1718
01:55:53,500 --> 01:55:59,300
now because I don't know, given
the results in My DNA tests, if

1719
01:55:59,300 --> 01:56:03,800
any Community would really feel
comfortable having and I maybe,

1720
01:56:04,100 --> 01:56:06,900
you know, maybe not giving
people credit enough.

1721
01:56:07,200 --> 01:56:15,300
It's all it is.
But I think you look, if you

1722
01:56:15,300 --> 01:56:20,800
came to the same conclusion that
you talked about, In some ways

1723
01:56:20,800 --> 01:56:24,200
Mirana, you are perfectly placed
to talk about these things

1724
01:56:24,700 --> 01:56:29,100
because not only are you a
strong Mormon fundamentalist

1725
01:56:29,100 --> 01:56:33,700
with a lot of knowledge with a
lot of Mormon cred if you will.

1726
01:56:34,800 --> 01:56:38,900
But now you've been on the other
side of this thing looking in.

1727
01:56:39,800 --> 01:56:41,200
Yes.
Right.

1728
01:56:41,500 --> 01:56:43,500
That you're not.
The first person that I've

1729
01:56:43,500 --> 01:56:45,300
really talked to you publicly
about this.

1730
01:56:45,500 --> 01:56:47,900
Well, I appreciate that.
I really do.

1731
01:56:47,900 --> 01:56:49,600
I appreciate the vote of
confidence.

1732
01:56:50,700 --> 01:56:53,800
But I think you're uniquely
positioned to talk about this,

1733
01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:56,800
right?
Because you've had to walk that

1734
01:56:56,800 --> 01:57:03,700
road. so, And here's the other
thing, right?

1735
01:57:03,700 --> 01:57:07,300
As fundamentalist were scattered
pretty far and wide, right?

1736
01:57:07,300 --> 01:57:09,800
Yeah.
And so unlike the LDS church,

1737
01:57:09,800 --> 01:57:13,000
they can just make a policy
change in, you're all good.

1738
01:57:14,100 --> 01:57:20,500
Now, we have to be able to do
this by individual, right?

1739
01:57:20,500 --> 01:57:23,700
Which is what this is, really.
Yeah, down to is, it's on a

1740
01:57:23,700 --> 01:57:27,700
basis by basis family, make the
case and then just let it go.

1741
01:57:28,600 --> 01:57:30,900
Like we're Brigham Young.
So the each of us has to stand

1742
01:57:30,900 --> 01:57:34,000
on our own cub.
Exactly, exactly.

1743
01:57:34,700 --> 01:57:41,300
So in this is the interesting
part of my journey and I can

1744
01:57:41,300 --> 01:57:44,800
only imagine what it was like
for you is the fact that, you

1745
01:57:44,800 --> 01:57:46,700
know, I come into
fundamentalism.

1746
01:57:46,800 --> 01:57:49,500
I'm like, okay, I'm just going
to hold to the truth, right?

1747
01:57:50,700 --> 01:57:54,000
And fundamentalism there.
Should be nothing but true.

1748
01:57:55,700 --> 01:57:58,200
And then you find well, maybe
maybe not.

1749
01:57:59,800 --> 01:58:02,400
Maybe not.
Maybe maybe we're holding some

1750
01:58:02,400 --> 01:58:05,900
traditions because they were
Traditions period.

1751
01:58:06,600 --> 01:58:11,300
But I think that fundamentalist
do that a lot we we take what

1752
01:58:12,700 --> 01:58:16,200
Brigham Young says everything.
He says is Gospel.

1753
01:58:16,500 --> 01:58:20,300
We take everything Lauren while
he says or rulon Allred says.

1754
01:58:20,300 --> 01:58:23,900
And we forget that they were men
and they were capable of error.

1755
01:58:23,900 --> 01:58:28,600
Also, you know, we don't need
the day if I them we can you

1756
01:58:28,600 --> 01:58:33,200
know, we can examine what they
said and then decide for

1757
01:58:33,200 --> 01:58:37,700
ourselves whether we whether we
accept those or not you know,

1758
01:58:38,700 --> 01:58:42,800
and I think it's important to
realize that That unlike the LDS

1759
01:58:42,800 --> 01:58:47,100
church, we now have the ability
to question a few things, right?

1760
01:58:47,100 --> 01:58:51,400
Yeah, we are perfectly.
Positioned to say Brigham Young

1761
01:58:51,400 --> 01:58:53,600
was a prophet and it's entirely
prop.

1762
01:58:53,700 --> 01:58:57,500
You know, possible that Brigham
Young was wrong on this issue.

1763
01:58:58,400 --> 01:59:03,100
Yeah and not that's precisely
where I'm at and not throw the

1764
01:59:03,100 --> 01:59:04,900
baby out with the bathwater,
right?

1765
01:59:04,900 --> 01:59:07,600
Be able to see.
Okay this this doesn't hold

1766
01:59:07,600 --> 01:59:10,400
water from Simply a historical
standpoint.

1767
01:59:10,900 --> 01:59:14,300
Right as fundamentalist, one of
the main arguments you always

1768
01:59:14,300 --> 01:59:17,600
hear is the waters your purest
at their Source, right?

1769
01:59:17,600 --> 01:59:21,200
Meaning you know, we're going
back all the way to Joseph

1770
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:26,300
Smith.
Are you, are you really right

1771
01:59:26,300 --> 01:59:28,800
now because then it gets
uncomfortable, right?

1772
01:59:28,900 --> 01:59:33,700
So, if we're going to take that
stance, then we kind of have to

1773
01:59:33,700 --> 01:59:36,500
question with a sense of
boldness, right?

1774
01:59:36,800 --> 01:59:40,500
And not be scared of the answer,
understand, it's gonna suck.

1775
01:59:40,600 --> 01:59:44,400
Chuck, right?
Because it may offend some

1776
01:59:44,400 --> 01:59:47,400
things that you believe.
Yeah.

1777
01:59:49,200 --> 01:59:51,200
But it's like probably
worthwhile.

1778
01:59:52,600 --> 01:59:54,900
Yeah, I agree.
It's been a long strange trip.

1779
01:59:56,000 --> 01:59:56,900
I bet.
So.

1780
01:59:58,100 --> 01:59:59,700
So let's talk about that a
little bit.

1781
01:59:59,700 --> 02:00:05,500
Now, you're in this very unique
space where you are again,

1782
02:00:05,500 --> 02:00:08,700
you're Mormon cred is off the
charts, right?

1783
02:00:08,700 --> 02:00:12,400
You were like Well, you
certainly been my favorite for a

1784
02:00:12,400 --> 02:00:15,100
lot of years, just because I
like the whole angle of it, I

1785
02:00:15,100 --> 02:00:18,100
don't know about it, Mormon
cred, but I'll take it.

1786
02:00:19,600 --> 02:00:22,000
You're very well spoken in your
articles.

1787
02:00:22,000 --> 02:00:26,500
You're very well written.
But now you've seen this on the

1788
02:00:26,500 --> 02:00:30,600
other side and you feel like you
don't know where you fit, so

1789
02:00:30,600 --> 02:00:34,600
what's the answer for you?
Or you're going to have to have

1790
02:00:34,600 --> 02:00:37,600
me on again when I figure that
out because it's a day-by-day

1791
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:41,200
thing.
You know, like I said, I have

1792
02:00:41,200 --> 02:00:48,300
more questions.
You know on what to do next?

1793
02:00:50,000 --> 02:00:51,600
It's been kind of a lonely
Journey.

1794
02:00:53,100 --> 02:00:58,800
I've been to a few communities
And I've been opened fairly

1795
02:00:59,600 --> 02:01:02,000
warmly by a lot of these
communities, but the question is

1796
02:01:02,000 --> 02:01:04,900
always in the back of my mind,
you know, they're going to find

1797
02:01:04,900 --> 02:01:07,500
out about this and of course,
especially know that I've done a

1798
02:01:07,508 --> 02:01:09,900
podcast about it but you know,
how are they going to take it?

1799
02:01:09,900 --> 02:01:12,700
How are they going to set it?
And in some ways I feel that

1800
02:01:12,700 --> 02:01:17,600
it's unfair to impose myself on
people knowing how they might

1801
02:01:17,600 --> 02:01:20,500
feel.
So it's kind of its kind of like

1802
02:01:20,500 --> 02:01:23,100
stumbling in the dark a little
bit that you know I need to find

1803
02:01:23,100 --> 02:01:27,000
my way personally through this
and And like I said, maybe

1804
02:01:27,000 --> 02:01:29,700
you'll have me back some other
time when I got that figured out

1805
02:01:29,800 --> 02:01:32,600
how to salute Lee.
Look, I've always said anyone,

1806
02:01:32,600 --> 02:01:35,200
who's come on here before has a
standing invitation.

1807
02:01:35,200 --> 02:01:38,000
You just got a call me, so you
can always.

1808
02:01:38,000 --> 02:01:42,300
Thank you.
Thanks, and dude, I'm more

1809
02:01:42,300 --> 02:01:46,500
willing to associate with you on
anything and everything.

1810
02:01:47,100 --> 02:01:49,400
All right, appreciate that, I
really do.

1811
02:01:49,400 --> 02:01:52,700
I think the world of humor on
II, can't stress that enough.

1812
02:01:53,600 --> 02:01:59,100
You know, and we've talked about
some pretty hard things here,

1813
02:01:59,100 --> 02:02:00,600
right?
Especially at the end of you

1814
02:02:01,200 --> 02:02:04,500
shared your story, which is,
dude, I'm honored you did it on

1815
02:02:04,500 --> 02:02:09,100
this phone podcast and I'm going
to be talking about this at

1816
02:02:09,100 --> 02:02:14,400
Sunstone, are you?
Yeah, so I'm going to be talking

1817
02:02:14,800 --> 02:02:19,100
on this very topic with
Christina, Rossetti who she's a

1818
02:02:20,300 --> 02:02:23,600
Mormon studies Professor from
Dixie College or Dixie

1819
02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:25,500
University I guess it is now,
right?

1820
02:02:25,500 --> 02:02:31,200
And he just wrote a paper on
this topic, also, so we figured

1821
02:02:31,200 --> 02:02:34,700
that both of us could probably
bring some light to the subject

1822
02:02:34,700 --> 02:02:37,200
and that we would complement
each other as far as our

1823
02:02:37,200 --> 02:02:39,700
presentation.
So I don't know what they are

1824
02:02:39,700 --> 02:02:42,900
yet but it's going to be that
the Symposium with some, right?

1825
02:02:43,000 --> 02:02:46,300
She's so good.
No, my battery's about ready to

1826
02:02:46,300 --> 02:02:48,600
die.
So okay, wrap it up yet, so let

1827
02:02:48,600 --> 02:02:52,300
me wrap it up.
So Moreau night, dude.

1828
02:02:52,300 --> 02:02:55,100
Again, I can't tell you how much
it means that you were here and

1829
02:02:55,100 --> 02:02:57,400
then you.
Yeah, for your soul here, dude.

1830
02:02:57,800 --> 02:03:02,000
I mean, that that I've always
said that takes the biggest set

1831
02:03:02,000 --> 02:03:04,000
of nuts.
Bar.

1832
02:03:04,000 --> 02:03:08,400
None is to throw your voice out
there in The Ether and, you

1833
02:03:08,400 --> 02:03:10,600
know, have it heard by people
and your name alone is going to

1834
02:03:10,600 --> 02:03:14,200
draw folks.
So I really appreciate what you

1835
02:03:14,200 --> 02:03:15,500
did there.
Alright, that's it.

1836
02:03:15,600 --> 02:03:17,600
Thank you.
You know, it's taken me, five

1837
02:03:17,600 --> 02:03:20,900
years, taken me, five years, to
get to the point where I could

1838
02:03:20,900 --> 02:03:23,900
talk about this.
Well, I'm honored it with here

1839
02:03:24,400 --> 02:03:29,300
and it doesn't speak.
Highly enough of the courage to

1840
02:03:29,300 --> 02:03:33,000
that you just showed it's huge.
All right everybody.

1841
02:03:33,100 --> 02:03:34,300
Bye bye.