Episode #122 How Does Forgiveness Work In Our Lives & On Our Behalf W/Liz Bradley

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As Mormons, whatever branch you
might be part of, we all have

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special commissions.
We have our personal callings

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that the Lord gives us, but we
also have one that is universal

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to us all, and that is to be the
people to help others come to

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know Christ.
As time gets shorter and God's

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work continues to hasten, we
must be the people that can

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effectively minister to others.
To do this, however, means that

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we must be as spiritually
healthy as we can be.

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This means we have to clean out
all the crap in our lives.

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With that in mind, I wanted to
go over a few principles that I

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believe can help us do just
that.

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To help me with this series, I'm
bringing Liz Bradley back on the

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podcast for this series.
Liz is a life coach who

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approaches emotional health from
a gospel centered point of view.

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Today, Liz and I have a
conversation about forgiveness.

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As we have our conversation, it
becomes apparent that this

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principle might be Ground Zero
to help us have healthier

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relationships as well as free
ascept to become the people we

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need to be in these last days.
That's next on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse.

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To become and raise men and
women of virtue and character is

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a Herculean task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com, go to the
bottom of the page, search out

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the blog post, and order your
copy.

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Today I can bear personal
testimony from personal

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experience that this is an
invaluable tool to help you

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raise men and women of virtue
and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Who is welcome back?
Hi, it's good to be here again.

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So I gotta tell you you that
that text you sent me, it was

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right before Christmas, if I'm
not mistaken.

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I had been, I had just talked to
a friend of mine and we were

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talking about the last days and
and you know that we all have

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work to do here.
And he said something that

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really stuck with me.
He said, you know what, I just,

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I don't feel like I'm worthy
enough to participate in some of

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that.
And as as I got to think, I I

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just couldn't get that out of my
head.

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I just kept grinding on that.
Why, you know, why is that?

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And I think we all have those
moments.

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But for some, it's it's
overwhelming and I don't think

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I'm, I'm necessarily breaking
any news here.

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Things are getting pretty dicey,
right?

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I mean, yeah, we're I I firmly
believe I I never played the

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game of Pin the Tail on the
Apocalypse, 'cause it's a losing

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game, right?
I don't, I don't know how much

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we have left.
All I know is this we better,

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right?
We better get our stuff in gear.

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And I feel like that that in
order to do that, we have to get

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all the crap out of our life,
right?

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We have to go to God.
We have to get that out so that

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he can start working with us and
then we can start moving in a

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direction to where we can be of
more service to him and his

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children and and so when you
text me and said hey I I was

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thinking about coming back on
and doing a series on some of

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these.
It was a godsend because it

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really was what I was looking at
doing.

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So thanks for for being willing
to to do this this is this is

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awesome.
Yeah.

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No, no.
The the one that we were going

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to go over today is forgiveness.
And this is a big one.

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This this one's absolutely
absolutely huge.

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I think one of the things that
that we talk about forgiveness,

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but we don't realize how much
power is in that.

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Why do you think we tend to
gloss that over?

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Like, we don't want to focus on
forgiveness.

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Yeah.
Oh well.

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It's a really vulnerable thing.
So I think part of it also is we

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live in a world that chooses to
deny sin rather than acknowledge

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that we do sin and we need
forgiveness.

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And so we have, we have learned
to justify or ignore things

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instead of to address something
or minimize it, you know,

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instead of to address it and and
say it is wrong.

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It is serious.
I did do it, and I'm asking for

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forgiveness.
A lot of times when I when I

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hear people talk about, you
know, overcoming something, I

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don't hear forgiveness as much
as I find explanations.

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So like, for instance, I was, I
was molested when I was four

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years old.
And someone might say, well, you

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know, he probably had this or
this or this or this or this

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thing that happened, right?
That isn't forgiveness.

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That's explaining and
justifying.

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And frankly, it's not justified
and it's not explainable, but it

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is forgivable even as heinous
and horrible as it was, it, it

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was forgivable because because
Jesus is enough.

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Because Jesus is bigger, He's
better.

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And he not only took the
punishment of his sins, he took

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upon himself everything that I
would suffer because of it and

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found a way out of it and then
gave that gift to me right to be

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to be healed.
And so, and I think, I think

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part of the reason that we tend
to go towards explanations or

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justifications is because
without God in the picture and

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socially God's not, you know,
then explanations is all we

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have.
But that least people really,

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really stuck when it's like, no,
you can't explain this away, you

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know, especially like in the in
a in a position of pedophilia,

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you really want to justify a
pedophilia.

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You know, you want to make that
understandable.

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I think that's a problem.
I think we should not be doing

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that.
I think we should.

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And the other thing is that
because we've lost, that we've

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lost a sense of what true
compassion is, You know, instead

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of the compassion that says, I
recognize everything that is

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wrong and I don't justify any of
it.

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But I see you as someone who is
lovable and worth saving, worth

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helping, worth 3 long on the
journey, right?

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I I will still reach my hand out
to pull you out of that pool

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that you're drowning in if you
want to, not going in there with

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you.
And I'm not letting you pull me

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in there.
But you're worth saving, right?

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I'm not.
OK.

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And I I think that the I think
we've lost that sense of true

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compassion because we've turned
our back really on God.

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And so we we've forgotten how
how to love people and hate sin.

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Right.
Let me ask you this, right?

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Because I feel like, to a large
degree, we're all good with this

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idea of of receiving forgiveness
from the Savior because we all

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need it as Mormons, right?
Some people are, some people

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aren't.
Some.

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People think that they're
they're so big that no one could

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forget them, but.
You know it.

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And that that has struck me as
as somewhat odd, right?

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And maybe it's because I needed
the atonement so badly as I was

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coming into Mormonism, right?
I was a flawed, flawed

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individual, I remember.
And it was just a moment, right

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where I was.
I was.

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I was actually looking in a
mirror and instead of seeing me,

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I saw all the crap I did right.
And I was like oh you're a

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dirtbag, right?
You you need you need something,

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right.
And and it caused me to to to

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have to reach out to the savior
for for that atonement.

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But and I think this is a a
super clever ploy by the

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adversary if we go back to that
Genesis account or or the the

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the the the temple drama so to
speak or the the curl of great

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price.
What we see I think is

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fascinating.
You have Adam in the garden and

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Adam's God comes to him after
they've partaken to the fruit

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and he's hiding right.
He's like Nope we're not not

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going to talk to him.
The part I find fascinating is

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this wasn't a surprise to Adam's
God right.

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It wasn't like it wasn't like he
didn't know that Adam had part.

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Adam and Eve had partaken of the
fruit.

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He absolutely knew, but he was
hiding.

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But what strikes me more than
anything else is that even in

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that moment of transgression,
his God is still seeking him

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out.
His God is calling him by name,

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right?
And that's something that I

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think we gloss over and we don't
pay enough attention to, is that

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even while we sin, our Father is
still there, calling us by name.

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Come back, come back.
And it's a clever ploy by the

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adversary to say keep hiding
because you have crossed the

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bridge.
And somehow we feel like maybe

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God doesn't completely know what
we've done and we think we can

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just keep hiding in the bushes,
right?

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We can just wait and try to fix
this ourselves and it's a clever

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ploy that gets us to not hear
the voice of God as he's still

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seeking us out even in our
transgression.

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And and I find that interesting.
My my question next is, what

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does forgiveness look like
person to person, right?

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Because there there's different
levels to this right there there

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is someone just offends you by
something they say.

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Then there's instances like
yours where where you were

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really hurt, deeply wounded.
What does that look like in in

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practical application?
So we have the scenarios where

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someone apologizes versus where
they don't apologize.

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We we have it to to the range of
they justify it they blame the

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victim.
You know this is your fault.

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You did this you deserve it
whatever or or flat out denial.

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It never happened.
You know you just have a

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spectrum of things.
I would say the hardest, the

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hardest is where there is blame
and especially sometimes people

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are really adept at recruiting
everyone around you to to

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disbelieve you and that can be
really hard.

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It requires you to be able to to
in essence do a practice that I

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that I learned, which is it's
none of my business what someone

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else thinks of me.
It's it's not my business what

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they think of me.
And even no matter how many

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people believe a thing and it
doesn't mean it's true.

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And it's hard if that if if
you're surrounded by people who

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are basically reaffirming this
idea that you're to blame.

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And sometimes we can cut people
out that way and sometimes we

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can't.
But I it comes down to deciding

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OK, God, it's between me and
you.

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This is what I'm getting.
This is what I'm hearing.

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But what do you say?
What do you say?

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And then making that the most
important thing, but all over.

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And it's it's a really hard
thing.

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It's getting back to that sermon
on the Mount where the Lord

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asked of us really impossible
things, right?

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Like our own, by ourselves.
There's no way that we can live

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those things.
There's no way we can only do it

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by grace, by by forgiveness.
We're only worthy through

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Christ, and it's only through
being bathed in the Holy Spirit

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that we're able to do any good
thing.

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But in forgiving another person.
It is.

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And I think we touched on this
last time.

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It is, at least for me, it's
continuing to turn back.

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Not because of what someone else
has been able to do.

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Not because they're changing.
Not because it's justified, not

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because it's understandable.
But because you turn to the

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Savior and you say, OK, I I
cannot justify them, but I can

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leave the judgement, the
punishment, the teaching.

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I can leave that all up to you.
I can use to say this horrible

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thing was done.
You've already paid for it.

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I accept your offering and I
leave the rest to you.

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And that's really hard.
And and and if you're and if

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it's someone in your life who
you continue to have to interact

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with.
It's a constant practice to turn

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and say Lord, for your sake, for
your sake, I forgive.

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For your sake, I can I move
forward now rebuilding trust is

227
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:46,080
a separate issue right?
Rebuilding trust is that's not

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00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,240
this is this is saying I'm not
going to judge them and I'm

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going to leave punishment to
you.

230
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And then rebuilding trust is
separate.

231
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That's where that's when their
change has to be happening in

232
00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,400
order for trust to be rebuilt.
Well, like I could.

233
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:07,560
I could forgive the the man who
molested me, but I didn't need

234
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,480
to keep going to his house.
Right, right.

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And and.
Yeah.

236
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,320
And.
And and that's, I think where I,

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I was kind of going with this is
that sometimes I think we have

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00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:25,080
this idea of forgiveness as OK
now, now we're just going to hug

239
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,360
it out all the time we're OK.
I don't think that's necessarily

240
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,160
a a thing, right.
I mean, look.

241
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,280
Apology, First of all, apology
is not repentance.

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00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,960
An apology is a step towards
repentance.

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00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,760
Repentance means change.
And yes, I got I have to

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00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,520
forgive.
Whether you change or not, I

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00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,440
don't have to trust you unless
you change.

246
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,320
Right.
Well, the the other thing I was

247
00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:01,080
going to say is that, look,
while nobody is, I shouldn't say

248
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,120
nobody.
I I suppose there are some who

249
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:04,880
really are pushing the
boundaries on that.

250
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:12,040
But 99.9% of people are not
above repenting and changing.

251
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:18,480
However, just because you
forgive somebody doesn't mean

252
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:20,880
you gotta hang out with them,
right?

253
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,359
And that's that's the other
thing, right?

254
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,200
Sometimes there are people that
are just toxic.

255
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:27,560
I don't know how else to explain
it.

256
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,920
And they still need to be
forgiven by those who offended

257
00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:36,520
them.
But that doesn't mean you go

258
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,720
over to their house and hang
out, right?

259
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,280
Right.
That means that that you just

260
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,080
leave it alone like you were
saying.

261
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:45,400
Like you were saying, you know.
I think.

262
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,760
Sorry, go ahead.
Go ahead, you first.

263
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,360
I with the delay, I don't
always, I can't always tell if

264
00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:54,440
you've paused or not, so I
apologize.

265
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,160
For Anna, no problem.
I think the metaphor of the

266
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,320
drowning person who's kind of in
panic, right, is a little bit

267
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:07,560
like that toxic person.
You can't swim over to them and

268
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,880
pull them out because they're
going to take you down too.

269
00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:14,880
You can throw them a life raft,
You know, you can throw them.

270
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,680
And so that that's like, you
know, that's ways where you're,

271
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,720
you can pray for them, I mean
pray for those who despitefully

272
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:28,080
use you and persecute you, all
of those things, and not pray

273
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,480
that they'll be struck by
lightning, You know, pray that

274
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,760
you know that they will be, that
there will be an intervention

275
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,240
for them, that that God will
intervene for them.

276
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,600
And like there's some people in
my life who I pray that this

277
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:49,000
might sound dumb, but I pray,
you know, please send them, you

278
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,040
know, 3 angels to speak to them
through the Holy Ghost for

279
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,240
everyone.
Demon, right?

280
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:02,080
Because I think if we leave out
the the, the unseen influences

281
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,720
that are attacking people, we
are not effectively fighting the

282
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:08,880
war.
Right.

283
00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,720
We.
Have to recognize that those

284
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,480
things are there and so so we
can pray for them.

285
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:21,520
And then like this is this is
something I've really had to put

286
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:27,240
into practice in the last year a
lot in order to restore certain

287
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:34,400
important relationships and
relationships that still need a

288
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,800
lot of work that are not
necessarily as much better as I

289
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:45,320
would love for them to be.
And something the Lord taught me

290
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:50,040
years ago that makes it harder
in some ways.

291
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:53,600
Like it's that struggle because
it's it's it would be so much

292
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:58,720
easier in some ways if we could
just be like you know my pain is

293
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,600
so valid and theirs is not right
or my emotions are justified and

294
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,720
theirs is not and and to just,
you know maximize our our

295
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,240
viewpoint and minimize
another's.

296
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:17,600
But years ago, when I was.
I was very hurt by my husband

297
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,320
and I was.
So I was so upset.

298
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:26,280
And I went to the Lord and I was
so angry.

299
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,080
And I was also frustrated that
he wasn't taking certain steps.

300
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,040
And the Lord showed me in my
head this picture.

301
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,440
And it was like, Liz, this is
what he's like on the inside

302
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,160
right now.
And he was like in the fetal

303
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:45,400
position, like he's in pain and
he's he's trying to to struggle

304
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,640
through this and recover on the
outside.

305
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,280
You you don't see this.
Right.

306
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:56,720
And so being willing to consider
that someone else's pain is just

307
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:03,960
as valid as ours, being willing
to pray for them because not

308
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,320
because it makes, not because
what they're doing is OK.

309
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,040
I mean the Lord wasn't saying,
oh, he's in pain.

310
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,920
That means it's OK.
He's saying you need to be

311
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,760
patient with him.
I'm working with him, but this

312
00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:20,680
is where he's at, you know?
And so learning to forgive

313
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,920
people, learning to understand,
not from a perspective of

314
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,800
justification, but from a
perspective of patience.

315
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,960
Like I'm I'm not going to say
this is OK but I am going to

316
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:41,160
understand that there might need
some extra space and time and

317
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,800
and I had a friend that one time
she talked about sometimes your

318
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,400
your marriage is in such a or
any relationship is in such a

319
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:56,680
difficult space that it it's
like you're not ready to do deep

320
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:02,640
surgery you need to stabilize
and stabilizing means getting

321
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:08,040
back to basic things like just
just common acts of service

322
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,600
kindness and decency when you
don't deserve it.

323
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,240
Like neither one of you deserves
it and you just do it because

324
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:20,080
that's the first aid I'm going
to be grateful I'm still going

325
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,000
to make you breakfast even
though you totally pissed me off

326
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,800
last night or or you're so mean
and insensitive or whatever we

327
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,720
want to bet on.
You know I'm still going to make

328
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,320
you breakfast.
I'm not going to act like

329
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,160
everything's OK, but I'm going
to be nice.

330
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,240
I and and the way I process
through this, sometimes it is

331
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,920
I'll go, OK, if this was a guest
in my home how would I behave?

332
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,800
So I'm not going to treat
husband as less than I would

333
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,880
treat a guest.
Now, that doesn't mean that I'm

334
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,720
I'm going to be as open and
loving and and and warm as I

335
00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:00,280
would be if everything was good.
But I'm going to try to apply

336
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,760
that grace.
And part of it is because the

337
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,200
Lord is really good at reminding
me how much grace I need.

338
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,440
Yeah, yeah.
You know, that's when you think

339
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:19,480
that you're entitled to to be
nasty or, you know, unkind to

340
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,640
some people and some people kind
of act like they're empowered

341
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,480
like that, that behaving
unkindly is like some kind of

342
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,960
act of empowerment.
But the Lord is always reminding

343
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:36,560
me you don't.
You don't have room to do that.

344
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,640
You don't have to pass the
judgment and say that this

345
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,720
person doesn't deserve kindness,
love, and all of those things

346
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,080
that I'm explaining to you all
the time, even though you betray

347
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,200
me all the time.
And I'm not saying that I go out

348
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,520
and commit heinous crimes.
But in the Lord's sphere of

349
00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:00,160
judgment, my hard feelings
towards others, my unforgiveness

350
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:06,120
towards others, is a serious sin
that I need mercy for while I'm

351
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,840
still trying to submit myself
more and more to the Lord and to

352
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,240
receive more of His Spirit and
more of His sanctification.

353
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,920
But in the meantime, I have.
I have no room for retribution

354
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,000
to anybody.
Right, right.

355
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:30,360
You know this I've always said
because I don't want anyone to

356
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:31,880
think I have this all figured
out.

357
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,000
I I certainly don't.
This is a continuous thing I

358
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,440
work on.
I'm the kind of guy that I think

359
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,360
I would have been really good
with the Law of Moses, right.

360
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,320
You know you do something to me
and I'm gonna get my pound of

361
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,160
flesh and I'm gonna get it right
now and I may take it myself,

362
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,960
right.
But but that's not the law that

363
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,480
we're we're asked to live.
Certainly the Law of Moses is

364
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,880
still in effect, right.
It's been fulfilled.

365
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,560
It's there.
But.

366
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,520
Right.
But it's supposed to be tempered

367
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:09,640
with that higher law.
And that is so tough for me to

368
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:13,040
do.
Especially if if it's one of my

369
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,040
loved ones.
I feel like they got offended.

370
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,720
Look, you can offend me all day
long.

371
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,080
I'm pretty quick on my feet.
We can have a burning war all

372
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,200
day long.
You're you're you know, I'm good

373
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,800
with that.
I'll enjoy that.

374
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:29,880
But you, you come after my kids,
one of my wives, I'm going to be

375
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,440
a bulldog off the chain, right?
And that's something I find I

376
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,640
constantly have to temper,
because I do think those

377
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,680
feelings are there for a reason.
But it's learning how to temper

378
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:46,240
that, right?
And it's so hard to find that

379
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,640
perfect balance of of justice
and mercy, right?

380
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:52,600
I think.
I think.

381
00:25:53,840 --> 00:26:01,360
I think sometimes we conflate
justice and revenge, right?

382
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,400
That that we get into the cycle
of well, he he did this to me or

383
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,920
she did this to me.
So I'm gonna do this right and

384
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,920
we we justify vengeance with
this idea of justice.

385
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,920
And I find that those two
things, if if they're not

386
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,280
separated and have a healthy
separation between justice and

387
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:28,240
revenge, you could justify
yourself all the way to hell

388
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,160
with those.
Right.

389
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,440
Well, and and maybe maybe
someone does deserve the

390
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,920
revenge.
But are you God, that you should

391
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:45,240
be the one to decide and that
you should be the one to enforce

392
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,400
it?
You know, in some ways that that

393
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,960
is exactly what perpetuates A
vicious cycle, right?

394
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,240
Is because we do deserve it.
Like we completely do that.

395
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,440
That's that's the point of
forgiveness, is that we do

396
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:11,320
deserve the vengeance we do.
But if we're always measuring

397
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,200
out the justice, then the cycle
never changes.

398
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,640
And and that's pretty much
damned, you know.

399
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:24,160
But the Savior literally came in
order that both justice and

400
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,800
mercy can be given at the same
time.

401
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,320
Yeah.
Let me ask you this.

402
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,680
How, how do we get to a place to
where we're willing to forgive,

403
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:37,360
right?
Because I'll admit that's

404
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:40,160
something I struggle with a lot,
right.

405
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,760
It's one thing to talk about
this in a very academic way.

406
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,880
It's another thing to put this
into practice, right?

407
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:53,360
Because, like, both my wives are
so much better than I am.

408
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,800
Like way better than I am.
Like, why are you with me better

409
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:03,800
than I am.
But like there are certain times

410
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:09,000
where the girls will come and be
like you know maybe you're

411
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,760
holding on to this a little
longer or maybe you're you know

412
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:19,680
wanting to to to extract your
pound of flesh and and is that

413
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,120
really what Jesus teaches.
And and in those moments I find

414
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:28,840
myself going I'm not Jesus so I
don't know but but but the

415
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,800
they're right they're 100%
correct how when when and and I

416
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,480
think this is important to to
talk about a little bit here

417
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,600
anger and that that quest for
vengeance is really kind of a

418
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,800
secondary emotion after being
hurt.

419
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:49,480
Right.
How do we get to a point after

420
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,440
we've been wronged like that and
anger has kicked in?

421
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,760
What do we need to do to get to
a point to where we can start

422
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,080
looking at forgiving the
offending party?

423
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,600
OK, so I don't think every
situation is going to be the

424
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,280
same, so I'm just going to try
to address a couple different

425
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:13,280
scenarios.
So first, there's lots of

426
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,920
obstacles to forgiveness.
So one of the ways that I start

427
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:24,320
if I can't get past something is
I say, what do I believe it is

428
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,680
doing for me to hold on to this?
Like it.

429
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,760
Let's say it's anger.
What do I believe that anger is

430
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,880
doing for me?
And most of the time it's we

431
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,680
think it's protecting us.
And then I ask myself, what is

432
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,680
it doing to me?
Right?

433
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,000
It's a cost benefit analysis.
I look at it and I go, OK, so if

434
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,040
I hold on to this, what is the
outcome here and is it actually

435
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,480
protecting me?
Is my anger actually protecting

436
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:59,480
me?
And then I go from that.

437
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:05,240
What I go into is what is the
Lord's type of protection,

438
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,720
right?
We have scriptures on the armor

439
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:13,360
of God because we do need armor,
but we need God's armor.

440
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:23,800
Whereas I think maintaining and
I don't mean in its proper

441
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,720
perspective, anger is designed
to come up to let you know that

442
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:34,560
you have been trespassed and
then a conscious, mature person

443
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,040
makes a decision.
OK, I have been trespassed.

444
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,080
What do I need to do now?
Right.

445
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:47,080
A child will immediately act
out, you know, but an adult

446
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,920
should be stopping to process
and say not say I'm not angry,

447
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:56,600
not say it was OK, but say OK, I
have been trespassed, now what

448
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,600
do I need to do?
And then And then again

449
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,680
considering the armor of God, go
back and look what is the armor

450
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,600
of God?
OK, face the helmet of

451
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:11,120
salvation, the gospel of peace,
all of those things.

452
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:21,040
And I I think the mistake that
we often make is that we try to

453
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:26,000
deny that anything happened
instead of saying something did

454
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,400
happen and it was not.
OK, and now where are we going

455
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,320
to go from here?
I think if we could do that,

456
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:41,160
especially as couples, it would
simplify everything if we knew

457
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:48,440
there is a guarantee, there is
forgiveness, there is healing,

458
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,520
and there is hope.
And we can skip past the

459
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,000
justifications and the excuses
that we give because we're so

460
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,680
afraid that if we can't justify
our actions, we're going to be

461
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,200
rejected.
But what we actually do by

462
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,280
justifying our actions is
telling our loved ones it

463
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,600
doesn't matter.
You don't matter.

464
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,680
It's OK that I caused you pain.
Here's why it's OK, Which also

465
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,240
says and I'm going to do it
again.

466
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,400
Right, right.
Because I'm telling you that I

467
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,120
didn't do it wrong, so probably
I'm going to do it again.

468
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,920
So in the act of trying to
justify ourselves in order to

469
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,320
keep someone, we're driving them
away because we're telling them

470
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,720
I'm going to do this, this thing
that's causing you pain, that

471
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,760
you're trying to let me know
that you're that is a problem.

472
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,400
I'm just going to keep doing it
because I think it's OK and it

473
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,480
doesn't matter to me that it's
causing you pain.

474
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,160
I mean, there's just so much and
I think really at the heart of

475
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,160
it, I don't think people are
really meaning to say I don't

476
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,800
love you, I don't care about
you, and you don't matter to me.

477
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,920
I think what they're actually
saying is you matter so much to

478
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,080
me.
I'm terrified that I'm going to

479
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,480
lose you if I can't justify and
explain my actions because I

480
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,760
don't understand forgiveness.
I don't understand forgiveness.

481
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,360
I don't understand the Savior.
I don't.

482
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,720
I don't understand.
And and then and then as a as a

483
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,840
good illustration of how that
works in the positive, we have

484
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,320
the the prodigal son.
When he comes back to his father

485
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,720
does he say, well, you just
didn't raise me right and this

486
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,880
is all your fault.
And it really wasn't such a big

487
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,160
deal.
All the stuff that I did and I

488
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:34,800
know I squandered everything you
gave me.

489
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,040
But you have more you know he
didn't come back and minimize

490
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,520
and justify an excuse.
He came back and he said I've

491
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,000
sinned.
I'm I'm not worthy.

492
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:52,000
I've made all of these mistakes
and I I don't, I don't deserve

493
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,800
it.
But I just need the crumbs from

494
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:58,200
your table, you know, and and
what does the father do?

495
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,040
He envelops him.
And so that story demonstrates

496
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:07,960
in a really great way how, how,
what our attitude needs to be if

497
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:13,840
we are truly repentant, you
know, and if we can create a

498
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:23,440
space like that as couples where
where I know that I could admit

499
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:29,639
to you the worst of the worst
and you're not going to cast me

500
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:35,400
off and write me off, but you're
going to help me, like, work

501
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,480
through this.
Like I'm not alone in the swamp

502
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,320
here.
You're going to, you're going to

503
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,239
extend me a rope.
Maybe you're not going to, you

504
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,920
know, get in the muck with me,
but you're going to help me

505
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,840
through it and you're not going
to pretend that you've never

506
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:57,480
been in the swamp.
I mean, I think when it comes to

507
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,400
forgiveness and especially in
the space of of couples and and

508
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,840
relationships with family, if we
can create at that space of

509
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:12,320
safety that says no matter what,
I'm going to forgive.

510
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,240
So all we have to focus on here
is, OK, we've we've identified

511
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:19,520
the problem.
Now let's create a plan and move

512
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,840
forward.
Gotcha, gotcha.

513
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:27,000
You know that boy, there's a
couple things there I, I really

514
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,600
want to focus on and and kind of
dive into first.

515
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:37,440
You said, you know, that it's a
child's reaction to just kind of

516
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,400
strike back out when they've
been hurt and all of a sudden

517
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,320
I'm like, well, I might still be
12 sometimes.

518
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:49,240
We all do that, I yeah.
The the, the other thing though

519
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,160
that I think is pretty profound
and I think it deserves a little

520
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,880
more attention here you talk
about when you've been wronged

521
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:03,080
this moment of kind of accepting
it right just accepting that it

522
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,760
happened.
That's a rough place to get to

523
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:13,680
as well right and and from my
perspective and and in Full

524
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,320
disclosure I'm kind of a
meathead.

525
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,840
I love to lift weights.
I like a lot of football.

526
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,480
I'm I'm one of those.
Let me let me give you a story

527
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,960
here to and and this might help
to show you a kind of where I

528
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,760
was coming from for for a good
portion of my life at least

529
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,360
until my early 30s.
My old man passed away when I

530
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:39,400
was young and he passed away
during wrestling season and I

531
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:40,840
was supposed to wrestle this
guy.

532
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,000
He was just a stud.
I mean, he really took it to me

533
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,280
the first match we had and it
was districts and I was

534
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:56,760
scheduled to wrestle the day of
my dad's funeral and the my

535
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,040
coach had come to me and said,
look, we we can get this thing

536
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,240
rescheduled.
I've made it.

537
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,360
You know, we'll we'll just have
a private match with just family

538
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,680
and close friends after after
school one day.

539
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,800
We'll have to travel there, but
we can get this done.

540
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,440
And I thought about it and I
just heard my old man's voice in

541
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,480
my in the back of my head, Don't
you dare use me as an excuse,

542
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,520
right?
So I had the we, we had the

543
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,520
funeral and then I was like, no,
I'll wrestle then, but I'm not

544
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,520
showing up till right before my
match.

545
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,360
And I it was a it was a funny
thing, 'cause I was just

546
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,120
stepping onto the mat, and I
just had this thought that

547
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,560
entered my young mind that was,
I've heard all week, and there

548
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,720
was nothing I could do about it.
I can take control of whatever

549
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:49,720
happens inside this circle.
I don't have to hurt anymore.

550
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,760
Now I get to dish it out, and I
took it to him.

551
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,000
Now, that was great in, in some
ways, right?

552
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,880
It wasn't a complete no starter,
right?

553
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,320
It wasn't like it was a curse,
'cause I used that for fuel for

554
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:10,760
a long time, right?
If I felt like I got a raw deal,

555
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,440
if I feel like I got double
crossed, whatever, I just used

556
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,240
it as fuel, right?
But you're also feeding the

557
00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:21,640
anger a little bit, right?
And and anger, I I don't think

558
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,280
anger in and of itself is is
necessarily evil.

559
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,880
I feel like it's.
Want to get more out of

560
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,120
listening to the Mormon Renegade
podcast?

561
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:34,760
Then go to the Mormon Renegade
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562
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,320
in this episode Show notes for
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563
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,440
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564
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565
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566
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,280
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567
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,200
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568
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,320
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569
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,880
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570
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571
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:06,440
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572
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,960
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573
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,680
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574
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,280
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575
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:20,880
Show notes and Sign up today.
It's it can be used for good,

576
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,560
right?
We hear about the Lord becoming

577
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,960
angry and and righteous
indignation and So what What it

578
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,760
did is it started me down this
path of I'll just beat it into

579
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,800
submission.
Whatever it is.

580
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,280
I'll wrestle this thing.
I will, I will you know just

581
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,640
make it bow to my will whatever
it is and and here's The funny

582
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,840
thing it was really good in the
work world right.

583
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:51,520
It was really good in the in in
pursuing my degree because I

584
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,400
approached it with the same
level of anger.

585
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,840
I remembered every teacher that
told me I wasn't going to get

586
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:02,040
there and and so I really fed
that fire with that and it did

587
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,680
produce a lot.
The bad thing is that's horrible

588
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,000
for personal relationships,
right?

589
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:08,840
Right.
And so if you don't figure out

590
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,360
how to check that it's no good.
But in order to get there and

591
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,160
and this came to the forefront
when I was in, in in really my

592
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,920
my first big.
Repentance process When I was

593
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:25,760
becoming a Mormon, where I was
able to mask a lot of that pain

594
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,960
from being wronged by my dad,
being taken, or any number of

595
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,440
things I was able to mask it
with with with anger.

596
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:36,200
I never really accepted it for a
long time.

597
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,120
I just refused to acknowledge.
I would acknowledge it, but I

598
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,960
would move, move on quickly
without ever really dealing with

599
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,680
it.
So when when we have somebody

600
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,040
and and I'm sorry this is this
is a long time getting to a

601
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,640
question.
So when when we get to that

602
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,440
point where we've been wronged,
how do we get to that point of

603
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,600
just acceptance, right and not
wanting to fight against it?

604
00:41:05,720 --> 00:41:08,160
Fight against the idea that
you've been wronged, or fight

605
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,760
against the emotions that came
with being wronged.

606
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:20,920
Yeah, exactly second.
The second OK, so there's some

607
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:34,600
steps, but as crazy as this
sounds, including being abused,

608
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:41,960
OK, the way that I have been
able to come to willingness to

609
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,760
forgive and willingness to trust
God again and those kind of

610
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:52,480
things has been gratitude.
OK, this horrible, tragic thing

611
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,720
happened.
What can I find to be grateful

612
00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:59,760
for?
And as awful as that incident

613
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:09,120
was, it drove me to seek God at
a very young age, with a greater

614
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:16,720
dedication and motivation than
ever would have occurred to me

615
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,000
otherwise.
Because of the pain.

616
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:27,040
To live, just to live, I had to
draw closer to God just just to

617
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:32,200
be able to be alive.
Even as young as I want to, say

618
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:37,960
five or six years old, I became
aware of my emotions being

619
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,040
disconnected.
I wouldn't have used that word,

620
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,120
but I'd be in an environment
where I knew that I should be

621
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,640
sad.
And somewhere inside of me there

622
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,560
was sadness.
But I I couldn't grieve and I

623
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,960
couldn't cry because I had shut
down those really strong

624
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,920
emotions because they were
overwhelming from what had

625
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,280
happened.
And so one of the steps that I

626
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:09,800
took, well, first the primary
step in that case was also

627
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,400
reaffirming myself truth.
Reaffirming.

628
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,240
OK, I'm.
I'm a daughter of God.

629
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,320
Jesus loves me.
All of those kind of things.

630
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:30,000
Those create a a safety net for
me where it's OK for me to

631
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:35,560
recognize the horror, right,
Because there's there's a way

632
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,520
through it.
There's a way back from it.

633
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,320
All those kind of things.
Gratitude is a big one.

634
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,840
Sorry, I'm trying to gather my
next thought.

635
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:53,360
When, when you're, when you're
addressing that, processing

636
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,040
those emotions.
The other thing is specifically,

637
00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,400
So when we look at the, the Law
of Moses and the things they did

638
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,920
in the temple, it's it's
actually, it's so much genius

639
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:09,120
because what the Lord did was
take an abstract idea of giving

640
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:14,560
away our sins and put it into a
physical practice like they

641
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:21,480
would actually dedicate their
sins to the lamb that was going

642
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:25,800
to be slaughtered, right.
And so and that's one of the

643
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,520
things that we can do.
We can take our anger and our

644
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:34,880
pain and everything to God and
we can say this horrible thing

645
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,360
has happened.
I'm so angry.

646
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,520
And we can even say, and I I
feel really justified in my

647
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,600
anger, Right.
And you're talking to God, who's

648
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,320
forgiven you everything.
So for me, the irony always hits

649
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:51,800
me.
You know, when I come to God

650
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,560
with my anger and my pain and
whatever, it always hits me.

651
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,320
Yeah, you know, you're preaching
to the choir.

652
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:06,360
But taking that and saying
something like I I feel this

653
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:08,840
way.
I choose forgiveness.

654
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,640
Will you please fill me with
your spirit and help me know

655
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:18,320
what to do?
Another another way of you know,

656
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,880
facing that and coming to a
place of willingness has been

657
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,360
the standard Norman answers for
Sunday School.

658
00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:33,200
Reading scriptures, praying
music is a really big one for

659
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:34,640
me.
Listening to the music that

660
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:37,880
helps me to feel the spirit of
the Lord, to fill His love.

661
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:42,520
There's this one time where I
was the I was totally in the

662
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:46,320
wrong.
And I mean we were both at

663
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,680
fault.
But I I felt like I had messed

664
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,200
up more.
This was more.

665
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:53,480
This was one of those fights
where you came to the end and

666
00:45:53,480 --> 00:46:00,360
you went I I I messed up bigger
on that one, right.

667
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:03,080
Not that the other person is
perfect, but I know that I

668
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,960
screwed up.
And as you sit there and

669
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:12,080
struggle, like I'm so unworthy,
I'm so unworthy of the Spirit of

670
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:16,720
God right now.
And what came into my mind was

671
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:20,680
the memory of Jesus eating with
the sinners.

672
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:25,680
And I think maybe that's why
it's in the scripture is so that

673
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,920
we know when we are the sinners,
when we are recognizing that we

674
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:35,360
are the sinners, that we know
that we can still call upon God,

675
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,120
that he wants to help us.
Whoever's willing.

676
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,760
I mean, the difference between
the scribes and Pharisees and

677
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,600
the and the and the ones labeled
as sinners and the scriptures

678
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:52,200
was literally just willingness.
They were all sinners, but only

679
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:57,000
one group was seeking his help.
And so he wasn't hanging out

680
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,480
with the scribes and Pharisees
because they didn't want him.

681
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,200
But he was hanging out with
those who knew they sinned and

682
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,800
needed him.
He was with them.

683
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,280
And so that's one of the ways,
you know, to deal with those

684
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,120
those strong emotions that come
too.

685
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,040
And I also have just, you know,
when we were, we were talking

686
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,160
about when we're angry because
of what someone else did to us.

687
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:24,600
To get back on that also just
asking him just please just be

688
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:29,160
with me.
And that reminds me of that the

689
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,760
story of where Joseph Smith is
having his leg operated on.

690
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,720
He won't take any alcohol or
anything, but he just asked his

691
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:42,520
father to hold him.
And I think that is.

692
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,520
And I I've actually had that
experience like in in in

693
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:51,320
childbirth where it wasn't the
emotional pain, it was the

694
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,640
physical pain.
And you know, I had to work

695
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,360
through that and deliver the
baby like I it had to happen.

696
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,080
But I I had some issues and with
both of my last two kids, my my

697
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,840
uterus just shut down it quit.
It just quit working.

698
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:13,080
And I was just like, oh, OK
Lord, I just need you to it's

699
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,560
like hold me so I can do this.
Like give me the strength that I

700
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:19,440
don't have so that I can, that I
can do this.

701
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:25,160
And so yeah, coming to him and
saying I'm angry, I'm, I'm upset

702
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,160
and I can't get through this on
my own.

703
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,760
I need, I need your help to move
through this.

704
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:39,560
Another thing that helps is
asking the Lord to show you how

705
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,000
he sees the person that you're
angry with.

706
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:45,960
Not because it makes it OK, but
again, because it it lends

707
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:50,520
itself to patients.
And then, gosh, I feel like I'm

708
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:51,760
being a little bit scattered
here.

709
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:53,080
Am I answering your question at
all?

710
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:54,800
You're answering it just fine.
You're good.

711
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:00,280
OK, OK, good.
So yeah, just when when you're

712
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,760
dealing with those legit
feelings of anger.

713
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:12,000
I had an experience where I
really lashed out at someone and

714
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:18,480
if someone who'd caused me very
deep pain and the Lord basically

715
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:26,160
said what you're lashing out is
what they deserve that he

716
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,560
basically was saying it's your
pain is as bad as you think it

717
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:35,200
is.
But something we don't often

718
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:44,040
consider is that when we are
punishing as divine, our divine

719
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,640
nature doesn't like being that
person.

720
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:53,200
And so we can't punish others
without punishing us too.

721
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,280
And so in that moment where the
Lord was kind of leading me

722
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,720
through and he wasn't saying,
oh, you're justified and yeah,

723
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,560
you should do it some more.
It was more like he was saying,

724
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:08,920
yeah, this is, this is the
manifestation of the real pain

725
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:15,920
that's being caused here.
And and then I had this feeling

726
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,560
because I don't want to be
punishing.

727
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,000
That's not who I want to be.
I don't want to be the person

728
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:27,520
lashing out.
And so the feeling that came was

729
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:37,360
like I saw in my head the
saviour being whipped.

730
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,560
I knew that my lashing was going
to him too.

731
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:57,440
And I just said, can't someone
else do the punishing?

732
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:05,280
And it was just like the Savior
just showed me, You know, I have

733
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:11,400
taken it.
Will you trust me to to stand up

734
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:11,920
for you?
Right.

735
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,360
Will you trust me too?
You know, instead of giving

736
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:21,400
someone the lashing they
deserve, will you trust that If

737
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,120
a lashing needs to be given
that, I will give it?

738
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,520
Right.
You don't have to be the one

739
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,680
giving the lashing.
And then that means that instead

740
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,800
of giving the lashing, I can
pray for that person.

741
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:41,880
I can pray about the situation.
And in my marriage relationship,

742
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:48,120
something that has always worked
has been to stand back and say

743
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:55,120
if I'm right, tell them, and if
I'm wrong, tell me.

744
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:57,520
Oh, that's.
Yeah.

745
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:58,680
Yeah.
No, that's good.

746
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,960
Because we get to an impasse
where we can't make headway.

747
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:10,280
And agreeing to disagree is only
good if it's temporary, because

748
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,840
multiple instances of agreeing
to disagree creates a mental and

749
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,440
emotional distance separation
instead of unity.

750
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,280
And so agreeing to disagree is
better than verbally pummeling

751
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,640
each other or something.
But it should be we agree to

752
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:34,280
disagree while we find out from
God what is right.

753
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:42,520
Right that that is is profound
and that about a year ago I did

754
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:48,520
a deep dive on on Martin Luther
King Junior and he he certainly

755
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,080
had his flaws, right.
He was by no means a perfect

756
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,480
man.
However, in his as as he

757
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,120
addressed his followers for
civil rights, one of the things

758
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,640
that was interesting is there is
one speech he gave where he

759
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:08,320
talked about wanting
reconciliation and not winning

760
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,080
And and I thought about that a
lot and I think that's kind of

761
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,880
what you're alluding to here or
or talking about is this idea of

762
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:22,120
just being reconciled.
Don't worry about right There's

763
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,800
a time and a place for winning,
and those certainly certainly

764
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,240
have to be acknowledged, right?
If you're facing a force like

765
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:32,760
our grandparents did in World
War 2, you better play to win,

766
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,240
right?
So there are there.

767
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:38,560
There are those times where
winning absolutely has to be

768
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,440
done.
But when we talk about go ahead,

769
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,920
when we talk about inner
interpersonal relationships,

770
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:49,960
right?
I would say your first goal

771
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:53,440
should be reconciliation right
'cause if your significant other

772
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,720
is coming to you, if your spouse
is coming to you saying hey

773
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,440
there's some issues here and I'm
feeling this way this way or

774
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:05,160
this way, well then the goal
should be well, I'm going to

775
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:08,480
show her why those feelings are
are silly and don't they're in

776
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:12,680
in all those other things.
And when this argument your your

777
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,680
goal should be reconciliation.
OK, what is it we can do here to

778
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:21,520
get us on on a good even footing
And look I am by no means the

779
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,560
guy you should go to for
marriage advice.

780
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,480
The fact that that the women in
my life put up with me is a

781
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:35,040
testament to their own goodness,
not necessarily me, but but

782
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,600
reconciliation, I think should
be our goal in these, in these

783
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,080
kind of familiar relationships
here, right?

784
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:50,280
Well, the goal has to be with
reconciling it.

785
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:55,960
It has to be reconciled, being
reconciled to God.

786
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,280
We're not looking for whether
you're right or I'm right.

787
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,960
We're looking for what does the
Lord say, you know, and

788
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,840
obviously that's more fun.
When you get to be right, that's

789
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:10,160
more gratifying.
But.

790
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:16,520
But sometimes it's neither, you
know.

791
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:21,720
Sometimes it's it's not it's
it's it's a it's a third option

792
00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:24,320
that you're not going to see
unless you ask God.

793
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:30,000
And.
That that's like when when we

794
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,400
talk about, you know, putting
Christ at the center of our

795
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:37,200
lives and at the center of our
relationships, that's that's

796
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:41,200
part of it, is that we're not
looking for your way or my way.

797
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,680
It's not your family way or my
family's way.

798
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:48,680
We're not trying to validate our
family history in this moment.

799
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:53,920
We're trying to supersede our
family history and do it the

800
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,120
Lord's way.
OK Nope.

801
00:55:56,680 --> 00:55:59,080
That makes that makes perfect
sense.

802
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:05,840
And I think so often that's
really where a lot of damage is

803
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:10,760
done right is when especially
with with personal relationships

804
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:15,720
of no, no, I know I'm right.
And come hell or high water, I'm

805
00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:19,280
going to make sure I'm right.
Right.

806
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:23,560
I only got one piece of marriage
advice ever from anybody on my

807
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:29,000
side of the family and it it was
it was an uncle and he had been

808
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,160
married and he wasn't Mormon of
any stretch.

809
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:36,920
I've been married quite a few
years and I remember I was in

810
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,760
the bathroom getting sick like
right before we got married.

811
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,840
I was so nervous and I was
young.

812
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,960
I was, I was 18.
And I remember I I kind of put

813
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,000
myself back together again and
my uncle came in and he just

814
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:52,680
kind of looked at me.
He's like, how you doing?

815
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:57,480
I'm like I'm nervous.
I I don't know what I'm what I'm

816
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,160
doing.
And he just kind of smiled and

817
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,960
smirked.
He kind of fixed my bow tie and

818
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,840
then he just kind of put his
arms on my shoulders and he

819
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,480
said, you need to remember
something, son.

820
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:10,720
I was like, OK, I I'm, I'm
ready.

821
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:15,280
He's like, when you're in a
fight and you're sure you were

822
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:20,280
right and you are sure that it's
your way, you need to remember

823
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,760
this one thing.
And I was like, oh, OK, OK What

824
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,840
is it?
He's like, you're no catch.

825
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:30,280
And then turned around, walked
out of the bathroom and and and

826
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:35,320
I I remember that I get it
forever, right?

827
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,600
Which is check your ego at the
door, right?

828
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:44,680
If if you are so wrapped up in
being right that you're willing

829
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:49,000
to sacrifice the feelings of
some right now.

830
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:53,640
I'm not talking about.
I'm not talking about

831
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,840
sacrificing principle.
I'm talking about a discipline,

832
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:59,760
right?
Right, right.

833
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,720
And and I think we all need a
healthy dose of that.

834
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,320
Hey you're no you're no catch,
right.

835
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:09,240
I I come with baggage and we all
come with baggage and we all

836
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,240
have to work through that And
and that's the process of the

837
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,080
atonement.
So often I think people look at

838
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:20,200
the Atonement as this thing that
happened in the garden with the

839
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,800
Savior that we don't really
understand and and we really

840
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,280
don't.
We there's no way to really

841
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,480
fathom it.
But but it happened this one

842
00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:30,040
time and then we just draw upon
it when we need it.

843
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,240
And certainly that's true.
But I think we sell the

844
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:38,840
Atonement short when we when we
fail to recognize that for us

845
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,400
this is a process, right?
The Savior's part of the

846
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:48,040
Atonement was absolutely part, I
should say.

847
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,160
This part of the Savior's
Atonement was absolutely an

848
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:57,120
event, right?
But for us, it's way more of a

849
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,160
process, right?
It's it's coming to the Savior

850
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:04,800
over and over and and learning
this process of being reconciled

851
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:09,240
to God and then to our spouse,
and then figuring out how to

852
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,640
navigate those waters.
And I think it's in that process

853
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:18,800
of reconciliation that we can
can start to see somebody else's

854
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,440
point of view that we can start
seeing what it is the other

855
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:26,080
person's really saying.
Otherwise we're just going to

856
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,680
spin our wheels if if we're not
not concerned with with

857
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:33,040
reconciliation.
Right.

858
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:39,880
Yeah, that's that's actually one
of the that reminds me of a

859
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:47,360
question that I try to ask when
I'm in conflict and either to

860
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,720
myself or to the other person.
If if like we're just like

861
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:56,840
loggerheads, you know, then it
will be like, what are you

862
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,400
hoping, what outcome are you
hoping for?

863
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:07,200
Because it's it's like we get in
this defensive mode and we

864
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:12,000
forget that there's actually an
objective to solve a problem.

865
01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,880
Right.
And so just like what you're

866
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:18,960
saying to keep that
reconciliation in mind, just to

867
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:23,480
ask ourselves what, what am I
aiming at here?

868
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:29,000
Because that changes what we
say, you know, because and

869
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,800
sometimes it helps me to go, oh,
right this minute.

870
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,400
I'm trying to prove that I'm
right no matter what.

871
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,600
But in the long term, I want
this.

872
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,960
So that's going to change the
way I'm going to talk, the way I

873
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:49,720
stand, the way my tone is
whether I ask questions or.

874
01:00:50,760 --> 01:00:54,040
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Let me ask you this question

875
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,800
because this is something
certainly that I struggled with

876
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,960
still due to some degree, but
not nearly as bad.

877
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,800
Sometimes I find it it's easier
to forgive somebody else than it

878
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:10,720
is to forgive.
Why is that?

879
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:12,560
And then how do we approach
that?

880
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,840
OK, well I don't know if I can
totally ask answer why because I

881
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:23,280
think why could be different for
every individual, but part of it

882
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:27,480
is actually wrote down some of
the notes earlier and that kind

883
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:33,600
of goes there.
Part of it is the ego of the

884
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:41,760
belief that my sins are so big
that the Savior could not

885
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,440
overcome them.
It's actually ego.

886
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:48,160
We don't see it that way.
Sometimes we think we're being

887
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:52,320
humble by being like, oh, my
sins are so bad, you know, I'm

888
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:58,720
such a Sinner.
But if we're not not accepting

889
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:03,960
the Savior's offering as enough,
that's ego.

890
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,120
That's us saying that my sin is
bigger than your offering, which

891
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,400
it's kind of worse than ego,
right?

892
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,960
That's that's kind of like
spitting in the face of the

893
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:17,240
Savior and all that he suffered
and went through.

894
01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,400
Oh, I know you bled through
rapport, but it wasn't enough

895
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:24,760
for me, really.
I know you were hung on a cross,

896
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:28,760
but it wasn't enough for me.
You went through spitting, being

897
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,880
spat upon and whipped and
shaming, But it wasn't enough

898
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:37,800
for me, right?
So it's it's coming, Coming

899
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:41,480
again to, you know, checking
your ego at the door, turning

900
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:47,120
around and going, wait a minute,
is Jesus infinite and eternal

901
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:50,960
offering enough for me?
Right.

902
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:58,800
I think another reason that we
hesitate to forgive ourselves is

903
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:02,560
it's similar to a reason that we
sometimes hold on to

904
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,080
unforgiveness for others, and
that's that we think we're

905
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,080
protecting ourselves, right?
Sometimes we don't forgive

906
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:12,800
others because we think that
somehow holding on to that, that

907
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:18,080
anger or fear or pain is going
to protect us from allowing that

908
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:19,760
same thing to happen to us
again.

909
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:23,960
When it comes to our own
forgiveness, I think we think

910
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:29,000
that holding on to that is going
to keep us from doing it again.

911
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:33,920
Except it doesn't.
If I feel badly enough about

912
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:35,920
this, it'll keep me from doing
it again.

913
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,040
No.
You'll probably either repeat it

914
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:43,320
or do something else because
you're because it's blinding

915
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,840
you.
It It's love and redemption and

916
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:51,720
the spirit of God and his
sanctification and grace that

917
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:54,640
will keep us from doing it
again.

918
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,400
And it's anything we hold on to
that's going to make sure that

919
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:04,120
we do it again.
Yeah, the the ego part I find

920
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,800
fascinating, right?
Because ego's one of those

921
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:12,320
things where it's definitely
there for a purpose, right?

922
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:16,320
Sometimes I think if we had to
look at ourselves the way we

923
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:19,760
truly are all the time, we'd be
we we wouldn't do anything.

924
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:25,360
We're we we're just a mess.
However, it's gotta be in check

925
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:30,920
'cause if not you're going to to
do just as you said.

926
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,360
It's it's one of my arguments
with like far the far, far left

927
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:41,000
politics and stuff, right?
Is that it's almost self hating

928
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:47,040
in a lot of ways.
You know I'll I'll just look at

929
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:50,680
you know I'll I'll get blown up
for this one.

930
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:54,720
But whatever you look at the the
whole climate change debate.

931
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,680
Right.
It's this idea that that we are

932
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:02,360
so powerful that we can be and
I'm not saying we shouldn't take

933
01:05:02,360 --> 01:05:03,920
care of the earth.
We absolutely should.

934
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:06,800
That's our stewardship.
That's our heritage from from

935
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,760
Father Adam.
But it's it's this idea that oh,

936
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:14,640
you we've we've made too many,
too many, you know, plants as

937
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,360
far as, you know, producing
things.

938
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:18,920
And we're giving off this and
that.

939
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,000
And then we look at Saint Helens
and it blew more CO2 into the

940
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:25,840
atmosphere than man ever has
ever in the existence.

941
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:28,840
But but when you get down to it,
right.

942
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:33,040
And and maybe it's because I was
a hunter and I was a surveyor

943
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:35,960
and I was outdoors a lot, it is
humbling, right?

944
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:38,560
You get to a point to where
you're like, yeah, I'm really

945
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:43,920
not much compared to all these
things out there, but you have

946
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:47,000
to have a pretty big ego to
start thinking about.

947
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:50,080
Well, look at what we did.
We screwed this all up and blah

948
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,080
blah blah.
And there's no no correction for

949
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:56,160
it.
And so, yeah, I I really do

950
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:59,480
think it's an abandonment of the
ego that that we we do need to

951
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:04,920
abandon that a little bit to be
able to discern real truth from

952
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,960
from error, right?
We we have to be able to let go

953
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:10,480
of that, that ego.
And the same goes for

954
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:15,880
forgiveness, right?
I remember when when I was first

955
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:21,560
joining Mormonism, joining the
LDS church, I remember I had

956
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:24,280
talked to the missionaries and
everything and I was like, look,

957
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,720
I need to talk to your preacher,
your Bishop or whatever.

958
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:29,640
Don't get me wrong, you you you
seem like you're great guys but

959
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:34,160
you're as young as I am and I I
I should probably talk to

960
01:06:34,160 --> 01:06:35,720
somebody else.
They're like, well, that's kind

961
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:37,960
of part of it anyway.
But yeah, we can move that up.

962
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:43,040
And I remember it was an old I
live, I converted to the gospel

963
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:47,000
in an in a in a in an old
country ward in Western Idaho.

964
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:52,480
And I remember I went in there
and I just had a real blunt

965
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,600
honest conversation with this
Bishop and I just spilled

966
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,200
everything I'd ever done.
I mean I just let him have it

967
01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:04,200
right And about about an hour
and a half into it, he he just

968
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:09,360
goes, OK, he's like you need to
let this go.

969
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:13,280
As soon as you're baptized, he's
like, the feelings you're

970
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:19,760
feeling now are good because
it's kind of woken you up to to

971
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:25,200
what you were doing.
He's like, but once you go into

972
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:30,080
those, into into those waters,
he's like you have to come out

973
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:35,120
and let it go.
He's like, because if you keep

974
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,360
holding on to this, you're not
going anywhere.

975
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:40,760
You're going to get burnt out.
You're going to, you're going to

976
01:07:40,760 --> 01:07:43,360
drop off.
And that's just the way it is.

977
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:49,560
So I I think that act of
forgiving ourselves, we have to

978
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:57,200
acknowledge just how infinite
and eternal the Lord's sacrifice

979
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,880
for us was, or we're not going
anywhere.

980
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,400
That's just the truth of it, and
I think it's the abandonment of

981
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,480
that ego that that they're.
Completely dependent on the

982
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:08,680
merits of Christ.
Yep, absolutely.

983
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:10,400
One of us.
Nobody.

984
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:12,440
No.
No matter how many boxes

985
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:15,560
somebody looks like they're
checking, there's not one of us

986
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,279
that has any hope without the
Savior.

987
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,319
Absolutely.
What are some of the dangers of

988
01:08:21,399 --> 01:08:27,640
of not forgiving right of in
this stuff bottled up and and

989
01:08:27,640 --> 01:08:35,880
just holding on to it?
Well, obviously punishing the

990
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:38,560
people around you.
And and that actually happens.

991
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:43,399
Even if it's you that you're not
forgiving you, you become like a

992
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:47,200
an embittered person.
It's it's that bitter fruit,

993
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:50,120
right?
If you are harboring bitterest,

994
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,560
then what comes out of you is
going to be better.

995
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,680
Obviously in your relationships
you're going to drive people

996
01:08:56,680 --> 01:09:04,760
away.
You lose the ability to have the

997
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:07,680
spirit because you can't reject
the atonement without rejecting

998
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:12,240
the spirit of God.
So it's just a a downward

999
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:21,800
spiral, right with that.
And then when it comes to

1000
01:09:21,800 --> 01:09:27,880
forgiveness of self, I really
say, I would really say that the

1001
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:29,680
end point is some form of
suicide.

1002
01:09:31,240 --> 01:09:37,479
Whether it's I drink myself into
oblivion, I overdose on

1003
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:44,240
medications designed to give me
euphoria or you know whatever it

1004
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:47,359
is.
Some form of self destruction is

1005
01:09:47,359 --> 01:09:49,520
going to be the end result of
unforgiveness.

1006
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:52,800
It towards towards others and
towards self.

1007
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:57,360
Because if we harbor resentment
to others, we are unable to

1008
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:03,800
access forgiveness for ourselves
because when we screw up, we do

1009
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:07,320
to ourselves what we're doing to
other people and vice versa, we

1010
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:09,160
do to other people what we're
doing ourselves.

1011
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:13,960
And so it's it's just
destructive, you know.

1012
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:18,520
And I think in some ways we're
seeing what the result of that

1013
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:22,560
is in our society on a grand
scale where nobody forgives.

1014
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,280
It's all like people screaming
and yelling at each other and

1015
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:28,920
demanding this and demanding
that.

1016
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:34,320
And you know, people talk about
reparations and I love it when

1017
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:36,200
people say, OK, So what is
enough?

1018
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:39,600
What do you consider enough
reparations?

1019
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,960
Because I mean it could just go
and go and go and go and it's

1020
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:45,080
never, you know, going to be
enough.

1021
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,960
But there again the the Savior
stands in the middle of that and

1022
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:58,320
says I I have suffered for the
sins and I hold all of the

1023
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:03,400
healing that you need.
We have, we can do mercy and

1024
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:09,400
justice right here, you know.
And for you know there are there

1025
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:13,760
are real things that are done
that do have long term

1026
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:16,200
consequences.
But I think the difference

1027
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:21,560
between someone who is wronged
and pulls out of it and someone

1028
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:25,480
who is wronged and a life just
never recovers and it spirals

1029
01:11:25,480 --> 01:11:30,240
deeper and deeper is whether or
not we turn to God in it.

1030
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:34,800
And that that means OK, I'm.
I'm not focusing any more on

1031
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:39,800
payback or or anything else.
What I'm focusing on is how do I

1032
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:41,800
move forward?
How do I forgive?

1033
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:43,760
And that's keeping my focus on
God.

1034
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:47,840
OK, All that matters is from
this point on, yes, something

1035
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:50,480
wrong was done.
This is what I've lost.

1036
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:53,840
OK, God, what do you want me to
do next?

1037
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:57,320
And I and I leave it to you.
If that person needs to be

1038
01:11:57,320 --> 01:12:00,000
chastised, I'll leave it to you
to chastise them.

1039
01:12:00,440 --> 01:12:04,000
If that person needs some
punishment, I leave that to you.

1040
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:07,200
And if you decide to forgive
them, I'm going to accept your

1041
01:12:07,200 --> 01:12:11,920
will and that too, right?
Not that I don't want to, but

1042
01:12:11,920 --> 01:12:15,560
there are times when it's hard
because it feels like people are

1043
01:12:15,560 --> 01:12:18,360
getting away with things, but in
reality nobody gets away with

1044
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:20,640
anything.
No, no truth.

1045
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:24,800
Truth will always have its day.
And there there there are

1046
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:30,240
eternal scales of justice that
are that are constantly being

1047
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:37,880
weighed.
I remember trying to phrase this

1048
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:39,720
in a way that I don't give away
who it is.

1049
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:44,560
There was a woman I knew who was
absolutely wrong.

1050
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:50,440
I mean, she was wronged by her
spouse, he he went out on her

1051
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:55,240
and and she really did get the
raw end of the stick right.

1052
01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:01,960
But I remember over time she
just wouldn't let it go.

1053
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:05,280
She could not.
She became bitter.

1054
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:12,360
And she became not just bitter,
hateful is is the way I would

1055
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:15,920
look at it.
It impacted every relationship

1056
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:22,120
around her and it caused her to
do some silly things.

1057
01:13:22,120 --> 01:13:28,600
I mean like her, her ex-husband
would would take all the kids on

1058
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:31,880
on a trip to Disneyland.
Well, she's like, there's no way

1059
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:34,760
I'm going to let that stand.
So she would take all the kids

1060
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:39,800
on an international vacation,
right, Having to one up it and

1061
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:42,560
then she talked about getting
remarried again.

1062
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:51,120
But she had such a horrible
outlook on who men were that the

1063
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:54,320
the men that would take her out.
Like one day we're done, right?

1064
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:58,480
I mean, like it was.
It was one of those things that.

1065
01:13:58,880 --> 01:14:00,960
Really just.
And what can be even worse is

1066
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:07,520
when you see all men as being
that way and you tolerate it And

1067
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:10,240
and that's something that I've
seen is that people who who go

1068
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:13,240
through that and decide oh all
all women are this way.

1069
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:17,200
They're all men are this way.
They don't see the warning signs

1070
01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:19,040
because they think everyone's
like that.

1071
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:22,960
And instead of going, ah, I
choose to find someone that has

1072
01:14:22,960 --> 01:14:24,720
these good qualities.
Right.

1073
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:30,080
They they, I'm not going to say
they attract, but they tolerate

1074
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:34,560
what what they don't want
because they've decided that

1075
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,920
that's.
And again, it's that I believe

1076
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:41,280
I'm protecting myself by being
cynical, but what I'm actually

1077
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:45,280
doing is throwing myself right
back into the same pond scum I

1078
01:14:45,280 --> 01:14:47,680
just got out of.
Yeah, yeah.

1079
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:52,800
And and this is one of those,
this is where I think we have to

1080
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:57,960
ultimately get with this.
So often we look at forgiveness

1081
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:02,440
as something we do for somebody
else.

1082
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:07,240
Right.
We forgive whoever perpetrated

1083
01:15:07,480 --> 01:15:11,320
whatever injustice happened and
that forgiveness is for them.

1084
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,280
But I don't think that's the
whole story.

1085
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:16,560
I don't even think that's 1/4 of
the story.

1086
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:19,520
I think.
I think the reason the Lord

1087
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:24,480
tells us to forgive is because
we need to forgive it in order

1088
01:15:24,480 --> 01:15:27,000
to continue on.
Yeah.

1089
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:30,720
That and also.
And also because it's an it's an

1090
01:15:30,720 --> 01:15:36,040
act of supreme rejection of the
Lord and the Savior.

1091
01:15:36,480 --> 01:15:43,120
To not forget, it literally says
the supreme act that you made

1092
01:15:43,480 --> 01:15:46,200
this sacrifice, all the
suffering that you went through,

1093
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:49,560
all of it.
I don't want it.

1094
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:53,160
I want my revenge.
I want my retribution.

1095
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,800
It's it's an act of rejection of
God.

1096
01:15:55,800 --> 01:16:00,360
And so it's so yeah, it hurts us
and it also hurts our salvation.

1097
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:04,200
And I do think it does hurt the
Lord, not because the Lord needs

1098
01:16:04,200 --> 01:16:09,480
our approval, but because he's
so sad for us, right.

1099
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:11,600
And he wants to be close to us.
That's.

1100
01:16:12,720 --> 01:16:18,400
I mean he he's self-sustaining,
so he doesn't need us in that

1101
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:24,720
way, but he wants us.
And so, you know, sometimes for

1102
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:30,280
me, honestly, sometimes that act
of forgiveness has to be I I'm

1103
01:16:30,400 --> 01:16:33,640
choosing this for your sake,
Lord, because I don't want to

1104
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:36,600
reject you.
Right, right.

1105
01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:41,840
You know, on the flip side of
that, I remember another woman

1106
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:50,200
who suffered tremendously.
Her husband was killed in an

1107
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:55,360
auto accident and the man who
struck her husband had been

1108
01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:59,440
drinking and blew like two times
the legal amount.

1109
01:16:59,440 --> 01:17:03,600
I mean was a was a repeat.
Offender.

1110
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:11,680
Offender took her, took her
husband, left her with three

1111
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:16,080
small children, was absolutely
destitute as far as financially

1112
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:23,640
at that point.
And I knew, so I knew the woman

1113
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:29,800
personally and I also knew the
prosecuting attorney of the

1114
01:17:29,800 --> 01:17:33,400
state and the county that I was
in that that prosecuted the guy

1115
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:39,040
and they were in different
wards.

1116
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:41,840
So there was no like conflict of
interest and they didn't know

1117
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:43,480
each other or anything like
that.

1118
01:17:44,480 --> 01:17:47,960
But I remember I was having
lunch with that attorney one day

1119
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:55,720
and this was shortly after the
trial had ended and we were just

1120
01:17:55,720 --> 01:17:58,120
talking about is like, hey, how
how did this go?

1121
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:02,040
And he said, well, he got, he
got a pretty hefty sentence, he

1122
01:18:02,040 --> 01:18:05,840
said.
But that's only half of of what

1123
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:09,320
what really went down there.
And I was like, well, what what

1124
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:16,240
happened?
And this woman got up and

1125
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:23,160
publicly forgave this man and
then also asked the judge to

1126
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:25,560
take into account this guy's
life history.

1127
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:30,000
Wow.
Now, good for her.

1128
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:31,240
There's no way I would have done
it.

1129
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:33,760
I mean, I don't think I have it
in me.

1130
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:36,880
I I really don't.
But she.

1131
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:41,160
That you would have to for your
own peace, your own happiness,

1132
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:44,360
and for really your own
salvation, you would have to

1133
01:18:44,440 --> 01:18:45,640
because you.
Can't.

1134
01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:48,120
Say well, I accept the atonement
for me, but I deny it for

1135
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:50,040
everyone else.
Yeah, I I think I would have got

1136
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:52,240
to that point, but I didn't
wouldn't have got there as quick

1137
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:54,200
as she did.
I mean, she was absolutely a

1138
01:18:54,200 --> 01:19:01,000
spiritual rock star.
But I I do remember comparing

1139
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:05,560
those two women, right?
And the one who had forgiven

1140
01:19:06,680 --> 01:19:09,520
just picked up the pieces and
moved forward, right?

1141
01:19:10,280 --> 01:19:13,360
She was, you know, was she
decided, you know what, I'm not

1142
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:15,960
going to stay in poverty.
I'm going to go back to school.

1143
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:17,640
There's got to be a way to get
this done.

1144
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:22,720
Excuse me?
Spent, spent a lot of, you know,

1145
01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:24,680
hard work and energy and doing
it.

1146
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:29,760
But she still moved forward,
while the other woman I

1147
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:34,280
mentioned just stayed, didn't
even stay stagnant.

1148
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:36,040
I don't think there is such
thing as stagnant.

1149
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:42,120
She definitely slid backwards.
And I think in in this talk on

1150
01:19:42,280 --> 01:19:44,520
on forgiveness, this
conversation we're having,

1151
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:54,720
excuse me, I think we we need to
remember that again, forgiveness

1152
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:58,960
isn't necessarily someone,
something we do for someone

1153
01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:00,760
else.
It's for us, ultimately.

1154
01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:02,760
Right.
Whether that's the Lord

1155
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:06,200
forgiving us, someone else
forgiving us, or else forgiving

1156
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:10,560
an offending party, it really is
all for us.

1157
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:14,760
And without being able to
forgive, I just don't know how

1158
01:20:14,760 --> 01:20:18,880
we move forward.
I don't know how how we can can

1159
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:24,160
attain to what we need to attain
to because we are constantly

1160
01:20:24,160 --> 01:20:26,640
damned in our thinking.
Right.

1161
01:20:28,320 --> 01:20:32,160
So Liz, is there anything we
didn't cover that you you wanted

1162
01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:35,240
to cover let?
Me.

1163
01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:47,640
Just check my notes really quick
and see, oh, I think we covered.

1164
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:50,160
I think we're good.
OK, Awesome.

1165
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:52,920
Liz, I so appreciate you being
here.

1166
01:20:52,920 --> 01:20:55,680
And and we're going to do this
again on different subjects

1167
01:20:55,680 --> 01:20:59,040
throughout throughout the year.
So I, I, I really look forward

1168
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:00,640
to talking to you again about
the next one.

1169
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:03,560
All right.
Be good to talk to you again.

1170
01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:36,560
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

1171
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:37,920
Renegade podcast.