Episode #123: Seeing Through The Deception Of The Mormon Revisionist History-A Breakdown Of The Debate Between Taylor Smith & Justin Griffin W/Taylor Smith

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So about 10 years ago, I
remember sitting around the

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dinner table with my kids and I
remember they said something

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about the Founding Fathers that
was just patently false.

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I asked where they had heard
such a thing, and they said it

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was at school.
Now this caused me to look into

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their curriculum.
And what I discovered was, is

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that there were certain power
brokers on the left who'd

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infiltrated public schools, and
one of their agendas was to

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discredit the founders so they
could, quote, progress past the

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Constitution.
Unfortunately, we're seeing the

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very same thing happening to
Mormonism right now.

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There's a movement among
Mormonism called the Doctrine of

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Christ movement, and it's doing
at best revisionist history and

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at worst just telling flat out
lies about Joseph Smith, Brigham

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Young, John Taylor, and others
that were so influential and

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vital in those early days of the
Restoration.

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They're doing this to discredit
that early leadership because by

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discrediting them, they can then
turn the restored gospel into

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something that appeals more to
their own hearts desires.

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This type of attack is not only
wrong, but insidious.

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Now, a while back, Justin
Griffin and Taylor Smith had a

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debate about Griffin's movie Who
Killed Joseph Smith?

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Where Griffin accuses John
Taylor and Willard Richards of

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killing Hiram and Joseph.
But darn it, wouldn't you know

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it?
Griffin marked that debate as

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private.
Well, no need to worry.

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Taylor Smith still has a copy
and it's available on his

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YouTube channel today.
Taylor joins me on the podcast

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to have a discussion about the
debate.

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During the course of our
conversation, as we break down

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the high points of that debate,
I think it's going to become

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pretty apparent why Griffin
might not want this out there

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and circulating.
Oh, and just for good measure,

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I've included a link to the full
debate in the show notes.

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I mean, you wouldn't want that
to get lost, right?

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That and more on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse.

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To become and raise men and
women of virtue and character is

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To help with this, I have

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is.

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Laid out in a way in which you
see Washington's original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
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where to use this in the real
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Now, to go along with this,
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raise men and women of virtue

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and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Taylor, my man, what are you

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doing?
Oh, living the dream as always,

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brother.
How are you, Dave?

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I'm.
I'm good.

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I'm good.
I I am getting a little some

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heat, you might say, from
certain folks that maybe don't

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think plural marriage is
historical and that crazy things

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like people who believe like,
and I thought this was over,

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right?
Like I was like, this is done.

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But those folks who were like,
Oh no, Brigham and John Taylor

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totally conspired to kill Joseph
Smith.

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So I went looking for Justin
Griffin's stuff, 'cause I knew

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he had debated you.
And when I went on his channel,

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I couldn't find anything.
And then and then you said you

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still had it.
So I was like, well, there you

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go, We should just do an entire
breakdown of this, right?

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I'll put on my best John Madden
hat and I'll just color,

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comment, commentate this thing
all the way through.

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Well, I'm here for that,
brother.

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Let's do it.
All right.

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And I'll just say before we kind
of dive in it, it is very

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interesting 'cause these are all
like 100 and 6070 year old

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narratives that be were the
predominant narrative of the

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RLDS branch after the.
So after the martyrdom,

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everything scattered, right, you
know and and Brigham and the 12

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tried to hold the body of the
church together but there were

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thousands if not 10s of
thousands who didn't follow

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Brigham and come out West and
and you know settle Utah and so

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the RLDS.
So James Strang was a was a guy.

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William Smith was was involved.
Sidney Rigdon had some claims

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and then eventually after the
dust kind of settled and

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everybody was like, well, now
what they formed, they came

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together.
A lot of them.

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Those different factions united
and created the RLDS.

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Now the the thing that gives the
RLDS any shred of credibility is

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Emma of course renounced and
denied to her dying breath the

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Brigham and the 12.
The the documented history of

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the Naavu period.
And, you know, and Emma is a

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pretty credible witness if she's
honest.

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And and as we, you know so it
it's I don't have necessarily a

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whole lot of negative things to
say about people in the 1850s

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who said I would I would take
Emma's word for something over

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Brigham Young's or you know John
Taylor's or those guys 'cause, I

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mean she was very close to the
prophet.

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She would know.
But but at, you know as time

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passed and especially so
basically the RLDS narrative

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shaped by Emma Smith and her
testimony was that the 12 were

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liars and that Joseph Smith did
not teach or practice polygamy

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in secret and that you know and
polygamy's evil, it's a sin And

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you know and and Hiram didn't
either and and all of these

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things.
And so this narrative was was a

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very strong narrative for a lot
of people that didn't like

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Brigham Young didn't follow the
people out to Utah and and and

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even Joseph Smith the third.
Now he was young when his father

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Joseph Smith was killed at at
Carthage and his mother

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obviously had massive influence
on Joseph the third growing up.

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And so Joseph Smith the third
also believed his mother's

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testimony and and bought into
her narrative that Joseph that

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his dad was not a polygamist and
all these things.

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Well so the so this these are
age-old narratives and of course

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they have to like throw shade
and and you know try to question

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the credibility of Brigham Young
and John Taylor as much as Paul

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and Willie Richards on all the
12 as much as possible.

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So this like conspiracy theory
of will the 12 were complicit

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with the martyrdom because they
were trying to get rid of Joseph

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and Hiram so they could take
over.

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Like this is an age-old
narrative.

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This is something that
originated in the early 1850s,

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even as early as the late 1840s,
just a few years after Joseph

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and Hiram's martyrdom.
So I call guys like, just like,

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well, and so I I called polygamy
deniers in general, RLDS

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fundamentalists.
That's very cool.

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Yeah, I like that.
But you know, Justin Griffin, in

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this Doctrine of Christ
movement, they actually take it

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even further, 'cause, you know,
so there's the RLDS

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Fundamentalists, which would be
like your Denver Snuffers and,

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you know, people that deny
polygamy, but they they kind of,

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they believe that Joseph Smith
died a prophet.

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You have your the Kirtland
apostasy, though, which believes

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that Joseph was a fallen
prophet.

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And so then the, so I would call
these David Whitmer,

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fundamentalist people who still
buy into this narrative cause.

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David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdrey.
Like the the Three Witnesses

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apostatized during the Kirtland
era, they kicked Joseph Smith

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out of his own church and he had
to, you know, get out of town.

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He left Kirtland, went down to
Missouri and you know, during

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all of that period of
persecution and and trials.

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Well, so David Whitmer believed,
believed that Joseph Smith was a

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true prophet, translated the
Book of Mormon by the gift and

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power of God.
But then he fell from his

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calling in Mantle as a prophet
and and so this doctrine of

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Christ's narrative that that as
Justin Griffin explained to my

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face is much more akin to David
Whitmer fundamentalism,

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Whitmerite fundamentalism, then
even the RLDS fundamentalism.

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Now both of them are very anti
polygamy obviously.

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And so there is flavors of the
RLDS fundamentalist narrative in

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Griffin's message.
But I would actually because

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because they actually talk about
how they think that the church

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lost the priesthood and Joseph
fell as a prophet.

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Now on all that stuff, we might
not get super deep into that,

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but anybody that listened to any
of the Phil Davis interviews or

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has listened to Justin Griffin
over the over the time knows

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what exactly what I'm talking
about.

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So.
Interesting.

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So because Phil Davis was was
the one who kind of picked off

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this whole doctrine of Christ
movement, right?

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Yes he he became a very early I
guess founder influencer within

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that movement and he has since
parted ways with that movement

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not by his choice he he kind of
got kicked out by by others in

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the movement and and I don't I
haven't followed him I I don't

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really keep super close tabs on
the on these you know polygamy

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denier movements but
occasionally I'll kind of bump

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into him and and or hears things
about him and things that's

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going on.
I'm also off social media.

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I I deleted Facebook a few years
ago and so I kind of am out of

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the loop on a lot of that stuff
and but hey, I'm actually a lot

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happier and like my life so.
Sure.

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Sure.
You know, I've I've said of this

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movement for a while.
They are eerily reminiscent of

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modern day.
And when I say modern day, I

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mean the last 100 years modern
day progresses because of the

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tactics that they use, right?
If we look back at what the

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progressives have done to the
Founding Father and the founding

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documents of the United States,
what you find is that in order

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to discredit their message, they
have to discredit the messenger.

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So you get this narrative of
rich white slave owners and and

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some of them did own slaves.
I want to say that.

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But but the way they paint the
picture is, is that there was no

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moral conundrum about it.
They didn't think about it, all

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00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,200
these other things and you get
much the same thing in this

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doctrine of Christ movement,
right?

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Because even though they still
try to keep Joseph Smith, it's a

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very different Joseph Smith than
what is borne out by actual good

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history, right.
And I've I've talked to a few

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historians about this.
You've been Privy to to a couple

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of those conversations and and I
just don't find any sort of

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veracity to their claims.
They they point to obscure

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things, the and, and that flies
in the face of multiple accounts

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on many of their issues.
And so I find it a bit insidious

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that way.
And then they can, they go on to

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completely try, try to discredit
Brigham Young, which if you're

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looking at remaking Mormonism
into something closer to your

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00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,000
heart's desire, that's exactly
what you would need to do.

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00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,520
Because Brigham Young is a
linchpin between Joseph Smith

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and the rest of the Restoration
on down, whether you're LDS,

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00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:15,280
whether you're fundamentalist,
whatever the case is, you hold

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to Brigham Young on some level.
And so if you can discredit

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Brigham Young and you can
discredit John Taylor, you now

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00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:26,640
have and and your Joseph Smith
is different than the historical

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00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,600
Joseph Smith.
You now have the ability to

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00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,280
recreate Mormonism into anything
you want it to be.

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And I find it very disturbing
and and I find it disturbing

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because because of the blatant
lies that come through and

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people who might feel like
there's something wrong in the

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church.
And and let's face it, I believe

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there's something wrong inside
the church, right?

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I I don't, I don't believe that
that all is well in Zion.

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00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:58,800
But what I attribute that to is
a departure from from those

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00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,680
those orthodox principles they
would attribute it to.

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00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:05,680
No, it's always been wrong, ever
since Joseph Smith died.

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00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,040
Totally.
A lot of thoughts on that.

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00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,440
I'm just gonna First off, when
you talked about progressive

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00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,640
tactics, they're they're using
these progressive tactics, 100%

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00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,600
agree.
You know, George Orwell put it

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00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,360
this way in his book, I believe
it's 1984.

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00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:29,080
He says those who control the
present control the past.

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00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:34,400
Those who control the past
control the future and and you

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00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,000
know and I'm not saying that
these doctrine of Christ people

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00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:42,040
control the present but but the
the, the the church has, you

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00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,480
know for generations they kind
of had that, you know,

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00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,240
stranglehold on the history.
But they have you know in just

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00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,160
recent years, this last couple
of decades really opened up

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00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,720
those archives.
And so it has been vindicating

255
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,880
for a lot of the fundamentalists
to to basically say, yeah well

256
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:04,280
this is what we've been saying
all along but, but so going back

257
00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,000
though to you know, it is
insidious.

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00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,800
It is lies.
It is, it is just pure evil.

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00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:16,360
But if we just look at it as you
know they are exerting their

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00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,240
will that's not very empowering.
That's like that's like

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00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:20,960
basically playing the victim
card.

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00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,040
Like we couldn't control this
and this and that and and what I

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00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,760
actually would encourage people,
especially those listening or

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00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,400
anybody within this, you know,
any of the listeners here of

265
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,360
influence is this is a meet,
this is an US problem.

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00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:37,320
Let's look inward and say if I
actually studied history, if I

267
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:41,600
actually studied my scriptures,
if I actually was well familiar

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00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,320
and acquainted with these
principles, I could have never

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00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,240
been touched by these lies
because I would have already

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00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,800
known the truth.
And so like we obviously this

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00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,640
the, the whole point of having
this conversation today is to

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00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,720
expose a lot of those lies and
to inform and educate people so

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00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,640
that they can have all of the
the the information necessary to

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00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:04,840
come to a correct conclusion and
make a correct decision moving

275
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,200
forward.
But but it's not like you know

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00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,200
nobody's dependent on me.
None of the things that I'm

277
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,320
going to be presenting or
talking about or showing you

278
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:17,600
guys today is is like I'm more
qualified than anybody else.

279
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,200
I just put in the homework.
I it's something I do think is

280
00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,000
important and feels important.
It's something I will say

281
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,280
definitely I felt inspired to
engage in this in this debate,

282
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:33,920
these debates and join the
conversation and so yeah, we'll

283
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,080
do the best that we can, but I
just want to encourage

284
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,120
everybody.
You're you don't have to take my

285
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:39,840
word for it.
You don't have to take Dave's

286
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,760
word for it.
You don't have to take anybody's

287
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,640
word for it.
All of these things are

288
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,640
available.
It just comes at a price.

289
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,320
You got to put in the time and
the effort to study and learn

290
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:50,520
and figure things out on your
own.

291
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,080
Awesome.
Now we're going to, we're going

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00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,320
to watch an old debate that you
had with with Justin Griffin.

293
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:58,760
How long ago was that debate?
How long ago would that take

294
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,040
place?
Let's see, this was this would

295
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,400
have been in 2022.
In fact, I'll just go ahead and

296
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,160
share my screen, 'cause we're
going to be playing share sound,

297
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,839
OK, perfect.
I'm going to be sharing multiple

298
00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:16,680
clips from this and so when did
I publish this?

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00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,359
A year ago, I think it's been
almost two years ago.

300
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:26,480
This would have probably been in
2022 for sure, probably like

301
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:29,800
April, May, May or something
like that.

302
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,400
How did you get wrapped up?
In in doing the debate with

303
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,120
them.
OK, actually, so this is my

304
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,920
YouTube channel.
I haven't, I'm not super active

305
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,640
on YouTube or anything.
I created the channel because of

306
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,040
Justin Griffin.
So what happened was IA mutual

307
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,480
friend of ours Kevin crowd.
His wife Beverly is a is a

308
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,680
friend of ours.
And she got in touch with me and

309
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,800
was saying, hey, there's this
new documentary that was just

310
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,160
put out called Who Killed Joseph
Smith and it claims it.

311
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,800
It makes the case that John
Taylor and Willard Richards

312
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,120
killed Joseph Smith.
And I'm like, what?

313
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,400
Well, surely nobody's going to
buy you that.

314
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,000
I mean, that's that's absurd.
And she's like, well, a lot of

315
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,920
people are getting pulled into
it.

316
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,040
And, you know, and I I watched
it and it was actually kind of,

317
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,520
you know, convincing.
I I didn't buy.

318
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:19,280
I didn't.
I didn't accept it.

319
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,920
I didn't believe it.
But man, it raises some hard

320
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:23,960
questions.
So I was like, oh crap, I've got

321
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,520
to watch this.
So I watched it.

322
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,720
And then I was talking to her or
Kevin, I can't remember.

323
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,320
And and I was just like, OK,
this is high production value.

324
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:36,520
This is going to you know and
but the most the, the main

325
00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,000
reason I think that it is as
influential as it has been is

326
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:44,840
because it gives people
permission to give voice to a

327
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,440
lot of their concerns that
they've had about the church.

328
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,240
There's and there's a lot of
reasons especially during COVID

329
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,920
to have concerns about the
church and some of the things

330
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,520
that the church has done And so
this gives you permission to

331
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,880
basically distance yourself from
the church and and think that

332
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,960
you're getting closer to the
original gospel of the

333
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,000
Restoration and and and and
basically if the because if the

334
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,280
church is in apostasy now it's
not a question of if, but when

335
00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:14,640
did it go off course when did it
go astray And you know and if

336
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:18,000
you can trace it back to Brigham
Young and throw him in the 12

337
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,800
under the bus.
The other advantage to that is

338
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,040
you don't have to deal with
polygamy, which is not people's

339
00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,680
favorite subject to confront.
And and I get it, it's it's not

340
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,480
something that is a pleasing
doctrine and it's something that

341
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:34,760
was very challenging spiritually
and all this.

342
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:39,320
And so it's like it's like the
perfect storm of all of these

343
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,400
things.
I think it it was people were

344
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,480
vulnerable because of COVID and
the Church's response to it.

345
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:49,240
They had these concerns with
politics and and corruption and

346
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,840
and people like the church was
changing ordinances right and

347
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:57,440
left and so and then the Justin
Griffin puts out this

348
00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:03,840
documentary and it feeds into
that dissatisfaction and and

349
00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:07,680
gives you permission to accept
Joseph Smith and you can get rid

350
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,760
of polygamy.
It's like the perfect storm.

351
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,920
And if I think it was very
exploitive, the way that it came

352
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,440
about at at targeting people in
a very vulnerable position.

353
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,240
And so anyway, so I'm talking to
to to Kevin and Beverly.

354
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,720
About this and I'm just like OK,
he was absolutely wrong and I

355
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,120
wasn't even just looking at it
from a doctrinal scriptural

356
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:30,320
perspective.
Even though I it's something I

357
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,320
believe doctrinally and and
historically and and

358
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:38,400
scripturally but but I I have
some experience shooting I I own

359
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,600
rifles and I like to try to hit
targets from a long ways off and

360
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,400
so I've studied Ballistics and
it's and I've I've done applied

361
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,880
Ballistics.
I I can target things from a

362
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,000
long ways off And so his I was
looking at it just from a

363
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,080
forensics Ballistics perspective
and I'm like this doesn't hold

364
00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,720
water this is just an absolute
sieve and and they're like well

365
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,320
that's cool you ought to like
put that information out

366
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,520
somewhere.
I'm like how where you know I

367
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,760
don't I don't have a channel I
don't have an audience or

368
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,080
nothing.
But I was like yeah if you if

369
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,200
you come across anybody that is
having concerns and is and is

370
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,800
sincere have them give me a
call.

371
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,080
I'm happy to talk.
Well, I think it was just a

372
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,920
couple days after that, Beverly
Kraut asked me, hey, I have a, a

373
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,200
friend who's a a Joseph Smith
Foundation historian.

374
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:31,720
Her name is Kimberly Watson
Smith.

375
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,000
And and so she has been
following this Justin Griffin

376
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,840
Doctrine of Christ movement.
And you know, she would talk

377
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,760
with you and and she's got a
like a Facebook group and she,

378
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,800
you know, you could get this
stuff on YouTube and and just

379
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,760
get some information out there.
So.

380
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,360
So Justin, Francom, Kimberly
Watson, Smith and I sat down

381
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,640
together and I think, can you
see my screen?

382
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,240
I thought I was stupid.
I see.

383
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,720
Down there in the lower right
hand corner, there's some guy

384
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,520
that you're listening to on a
podcast.

385
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,440
Very, very right.
Yeah, I would be careful of

386
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:04,040
that.
That's.

387
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:05,720
Yeah.
It's a little fringy a.

388
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,000
Little fringy, A little cringy.
You know, I hear he got banned

389
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,800
on YouTube, so.
Close. close.

390
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,080
He got banned.
He he ducked out before he got

391
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,240
his third.
Oh, you got your second strike.

392
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,360
OK, so anyway, so I've only
uploaded a handful of these

393
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:24,320
videos, and and they're pretty
much most almost all of them are

394
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,240
directly related to this
doctrine of Christ.

395
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,880
Polygamy denial.
Justin Griffin.

396
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,600
John Taylor?
Accused of murdering The Smiths.

397
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,760
And so this first one was about
two hours and 17 minutes long

398
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,280
and we just go through and we
have an an unscripted

399
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,000
conversation.
That's why I called the name of

400
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,640
the channel the gospel
unscripted.

401
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:48,280
And I didn't have a channel, but
we recorded this and and then I

402
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:49,960
created the channel so I could
upload it.

403
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,840
So that's how basically this
channel got started and and so

404
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,200
anyway on this video of who
killed Joseph Smith debunked

405
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,960
whoops.
I wasn't intended to play it,

406
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:06,000
but anyway, we there was oh,
that's what it was.

407
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,640
So we post this video, right.
And we're having this

408
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:16,240
conversation.
And then so Justin Griffin hears

409
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,560
about this video from his I
summoned in his network send him

410
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,240
the link and and it's like, hey
Kim Bruce Kim Smith is coming

411
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,760
after you and she's got these
two guys that she had this

412
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,040
conversation.
So Justin Griffin takes out of

413
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,920
this two hours and 17 minutes
conversation.

414
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:37,560
He targets 10 minutes and he
does a 40 minute episode on his

415
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,560
YouTube channel debunking us
debunking him.

416
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,040
But again, he focuses in on 10
minutes, ignores the other two

417
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,160
hours plus, and he spends 30
minutes talking about it.

418
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,800
And over the course of the 30
minutes, he doesn't actually

419
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,720
debunk anything.
He just says I I don't.

420
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,480
I think they're wrong.
Over and over.

421
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:03,640
Well, in that video that he
posted though he said, you know

422
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,080
I talk with these guys they seem
like, you know honest, you know

423
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,560
sincere guys that and I'd, I'd,
I'd be happy to talk with them

424
00:24:12,120 --> 00:24:15,280
well.
So I got of course got wind of

425
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,640
him doing that response video
from Kim actually.

426
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,360
And so I hop on there and I'm
listening and I hear him

427
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,920
basically invite me on to his
channel.

428
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:25,960
And so I could I get in the
comments.

429
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,040
I'm like, hey Justin, I'll take
you up on that invite.

430
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:35,240
Just tell me when and where I'll
be there and and and so there

431
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,720
were some conditions.
He absolutely refused to engage

432
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,080
with me if Kim Smith was on the
call.

433
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,320
And and and so I said OK I I
talked to Kim and you know like

434
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,880
she made sure she was cool with
it and I said, so Kimberly,

435
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,320
Justin will not meet with me if
you're involved.

436
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,560
I mean no offense but do you
mind if I just go on alone and

437
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:58,880
fly solo.
She says no.

438
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:04,120
No not at all.
So I I I sent him all of my

439
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:06,200
talking points all the questions
and.

440
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,240
And he So there was no, I didn't
want him to accuse me of you

441
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,000
know, engaging under false
pretenses or a bait and switch.

442
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,240
I was extremely clear and
upfront.

443
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,560
I I think you're wrong.
I think your theory doesn't hold

444
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,240
water.
I think your presentation is is

445
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,080
a lie and it sucks.
And and I was very upfront with

446
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,000
that and I sent it all in
advance and he accepted the

447
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,760
terms of engagement, so to
speak.

448
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,920
And then he like flipped things
right at the last second like

449
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,560
the day of the night of.
And I almost was like Dang, do I

450
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,320
back out of this, like, is this
really going to be worth my

451
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,400
time?
And I prayed about it and I just

452
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,720
felt like you know what it needs
to happen.

453
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:48,880
And so I I went through with it
anyway.

454
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,960
And so that is how this first
video came to be.

455
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,080
And so I I left it uncut.
There's it's over 2 hours long,

456
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,520
2 hours and 5 minutes long.
So and then there's a Part 2.

457
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,840
So at the end of this first one,
we didn't quite cover everything

458
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,440
and and so there was a second
part.

459
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,680
And then I I dialed in just a
part of that second conversation

460
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,080
of of just me presenting 'cause
he challenged me at the end of

461
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,920
the first one to come up with my
own theory and to present it.

462
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:24,600
And so I so if people are at all
interested in kind of seeing the

463
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,680
whole thing for yourself, you
know, it's all up there on

464
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,880
YouTube.
What's interesting about it?

465
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,840
And you kind of alluded to this
earlier, Dave.

466
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:40,560
We both consented to recording
this conversation and we both

467
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,800
guaranteed that, you know,
you'll send me a copy of the

468
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,560
recording, I'll send you a copy
of the record, We'll both have a

469
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,640
copy of this full conversation
recording so we can both upload

470
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:57,640
it to our respective channels.
Well, so Justin Griffin uploaded

471
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,040
the the the videos to his
channel, but I don't.

472
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,400
I'm not sure if he ever actually
did upload the second-half this

473
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,040
round two.
If he did he has completely

474
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:12,520
pulled it off and then a few
months after the first one

475
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,360
dropped because he did have it
uploaded onto his channel.

476
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:20,280
At first just public.
But he has said since set this

477
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,360
round one conversation to
private you have to request

478
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,960
access from him, the owner,
before he would allow you to

479
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,640
watch the round one on his
channel.

480
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:34,800
So effectively he has tried to
hide or or bury this information

481
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,440
from his followers.
Fortunately, I have my own

482
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,040
independent channel that he has
no control over and so it's

483
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,680
still available to anybody
that's interested anyway, does

484
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,360
that, yeah, that's kind of a
long answer of it.

485
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,840
One one other question.
And then we'll move on to the

486
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,640
video here and and stop and and
you know, make some commentary

487
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,440
here.
He he produces 2 movies, right?

488
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,560
And I've heard rumors of 1/3 in
the works.

489
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,920
I'm not sure if that's factual
or not, but.

490
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,040
He.
He.

491
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,920
You're right, those movies, do
you have some pretty good

492
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,000
production quality, right?
You know, anyone who's done any

493
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:21,280
sort of of film work knows that
that stuff's not cheap, right?

494
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,000
Do we know who's funding him?
Is this self funded?

495
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,800
Do we have any idea?
Cause a lot of times I'm like,

496
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,040
OK, where's the money?
Let's follow the money and see

497
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,880
where this is coming from,
'cause normally that'll tell you

498
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,280
what the the what the, you know
who, who the real power players

499
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,800
are.
Yeah, I actually don't know who

500
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,000
funded it.
I I know that Griffin.

501
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,640
I don't know if he's like
wealthy enough to fully

502
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,440
independently fund this himself.
I but I I I think he's doing OK

503
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,040
financially.
I we have a mutual friend who

504
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,480
who used to know him 'cause he
was a a senior manager at Cutco

505
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:05,320
years ago and and so like he has
a background in sales and

506
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,280
marketing.
He has a background in upper

507
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,040
management at those at in those
capacities.

508
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,120
And you know, I know speaking a
little bit from personal

509
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,320
experience or just personal
observation, those guys are

510
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,920
doing pretty good financially
and you know and if that's been

511
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,520
his career for several years, I
I can imagine that setting

512
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,920
himself up pretty good.
So I don't know if he actually

513
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,840
did fully fund this
independently on his own or if

514
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,480
there were other people that
kind of pooled resources.

515
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,760
Either way it it is.
I mean I don't know if it was

516
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:44,760
$1,000,000 but it was certainly
a a large investment to produce

517
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,680
his his part one Part 2.
I mean, it was expensive because

518
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,800
they hired the guy.
Back in New York.

519
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,320
The forensic detective, I can't
forget his name.

520
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,640
I I have notes of it somewhere.
But anyway they they did hire

521
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,040
him and he's not cheap.
I mean that had to have been 10s

522
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,440
of thousands or more to to get
him to come on.

523
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,480
And unfortunately it didn't
really do, it didn't strengthen

524
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,360
their narrative or their, you
know, further their agenda

525
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,240
because he basically said yeah,
the eyewitnesses accounts could

526
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,160
be fine and I don't think your
theory really holds water, says

527
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,600
the, the forensic expert who
paid as a consultant for that.

528
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,160
But so part one I would
definitely say was far more

529
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:36,400
effective because he tried to
lock in and and and really dial

530
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,360
in on just the 2-3 minutes in
the Carthage jail and tried to

531
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,240
build a case in that vacuum that
the the the mob was not

532
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,400
responsible for Joseph's,
Empyrean's murders.

533
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,320
But it it was John Taylor and
Will Richards.

534
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,440
It was an inside job.
And the 2nd movie is a lot more

535
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:59,840
about like him getting
excommunicated and him taking

536
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:04,280
heat and getting criticized and
him, you know, going to this

537
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,520
forensic detective expert guy
and and being told that his

538
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,200
theory sucks.
Like that's that's what Part 2

539
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,720
is all about.
And it's hilarious cause during

540
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,040
the conversations that I had
with him he refused to to tell

541
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,120
me what Part 2 'cause I was
like, dude, I know where you're

542
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,840
going with this.
Why would you frame John Taylor

543
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,480
as the murderer if you weren't
gonna just you know then use

544
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,480
that to to see to be go to go
anti polygamy to prefer the push

545
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,160
the narrative that Joseph Smith
was against polygamy and it was

546
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:43,040
just the 12 and so I and and he
was like no he denied it over

547
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:48,040
and over to my face and and then
hilariously at the end the

548
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:53,040
closing scene of part two of his
of his second documentary it

549
00:31:53,040 --> 00:32:01,160
says part three anti polygamy.
So he created Part 2 just to get

550
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,800
me and Kimberly Watson Smith to
prove that we were wrong.

551
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,720
But it wasn't gonna be about
polygamy when it was always

552
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,320
gonna be about polygamy.
But he had to prove us wrong

553
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:14,320
first.
So he comes up with filler

554
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,200
content that really looks, makes
him look terrible.

555
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,320
And then at the end he teases
the anti polygamy thing is and

556
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,160
that's what part three is
supposed to be about and maybe

557
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:24,360
he'll produce it.
I don't know.

558
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,240
I I have no insight on whether
that's in production or or if

559
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,360
that's gonna ever come out.
Gotcha.

560
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,280
But so this conversation that I
had with Justin Griffin was

561
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,680
before Part 2 came out and it
was just the his, his first

562
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,320
video had just come out.
I think he dropped part one in

563
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,360
like January of 2022 maybe
somewhere, you know, give or

564
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,640
take a month.
And then he dropped Part 2 in

565
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,560
January of 2023.
And so this was this would have

566
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,560
been probably May Ish, April,
May, June somewhere in there of

567
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,200
January of 2022.
And then the second conversation

568
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,160
we had was was like within a
month or so after this first

569
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,240
one, but we'll start with part
one.

570
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:17,240
And and so like the I, I didn't
know Justin, I had never met him

571
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,800
before, I didn't have first hand
information.

572
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,400
So a lot of the conversation
that Justin Francom and and

573
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,080
Kimberly Smith and I had had, we
were dependent on Kim for a lot

574
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,640
of the like back story and
context and like who is Phil

575
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,800
Davis and who is this doctrine
of Christ's movement and what is

576
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,320
this all about and and what do
they believe and what's their

577
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:39,840
angle?
Why are they coming out with

578
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,680
this Who Killed Joseph Smith
documentary like we were

579
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,600
dependent on Kim.
And so I spent a lot of this

580
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,160
first part of this conversation
just asking him so that I, it

581
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,240
wasn't hearsay based, that it
was just straight from the

582
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,720
horse's mouth.
So who are you?

583
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,280
What's your story like?
Where are you?

584
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,160
What's your background?
And in the first few minutes of

585
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,840
this, of this conversation
between Griffin and me, he said

586
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,640
that he began producing this
documentary in early 2021.

587
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,639
So his journey, you know, out of
the church and questioning

588
00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:16,239
polygamy and all this stuff he
said began in early 2020.

589
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,639
So he was fairly new in this
journey, you know, in his

590
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,480
discovery of of whatever when he
began producing.

591
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,440
About a year.
Into it.

592
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,159
And so the two major events that
he talked about in the start of

593
00:34:31,159 --> 00:34:34,960
his journey was #1 encountering
the concept, the idea that

594
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,920
Joseph didn't practice or teach
polygamy and I don't know if

595
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,880
that came I I forget if he if he
specified.

596
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:44,800
But I mean that's a very old
narrative.

597
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,239
If you go back to RLDSI know the
Snufferites and you know Denver

598
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,639
Snuffer in that movement has
kind of really adopted that.

599
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:56,440
And so he says that that was a a
massive idea that that he

600
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,440
encountered that led him on this
path that he's on.

601
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:03,080
And then he found the Carthage
conspiracy, which was produced

602
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,480
by a literal RLDS fundamentalist
in the 90s or maybe it was 80s.

603
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,320
I don't know if you've seen that
on YouTube.

604
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,040
It's like VHS quality this kind
of guy that gets up in front of

605
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,440
a chalkboard and and is like
talking about Ballistics

606
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,400
evidence, even though he doesn't
know anything about Ballistics.

607
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,600
And he's like saying that yeah
it was an inside job.

608
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,200
The mob didn't kill Joseph and
hire him and and it was a

609
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,880
hostile takeover like basically
stuff that the RLDS church now

610
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,280
the the community of Christ has
officially disavowed and

611
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,040
recanted and and has
acknowledged that they were

612
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,000
wrong for many decades now.
Once they first got trained

613
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,800
historians, they realized they
can't.

614
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,480
They have no leg to stand on to
try to cling to that old

615
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,400
narrative.
But anyway, but this is a guy

616
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:56,640
from the RLDS church who was a
true believer and he thought

617
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,160
that his church had sold out to
the progressive movement or you

618
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,360
know, even though it was, they
were just acknowledging the

619
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:06,560
truth about the history and and
so he was perpetuating the

620
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,920
original narrative, the
fundamentalist RLDS narrative

621
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:16,360
about the Carthage conspiracy.
So Griffin admits that he that

622
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,960
this is what inspired him and
and got him going.

623
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,680
And he he admits that he was
affiliated with The Doctrine of

624
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:27,280
Christ and with Phil Davis
before beginning to produce the

625
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,440
documentary.
Interesting.

626
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,720
And and I actually just so I
wanna play this.

627
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:36,120
So this idea of him just like
finding out with everybody else

628
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,920
as he does his research like it
it was an inside job, is is

629
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,360
bunk.
He came at this knowing full

630
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,680
well what what the Shtec was, so
to speak.

631
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,840
He had his answer before he
started filming, but he so he so

632
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,600
it's it's very disingenuous and
dishonest the way that he

633
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,960
presented 'cause he was trying
to, you know, if you watch the

634
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,760
if, if anybody here has watched
the documentary, I don't

635
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,760
recommend it if you haven't.
But if you have, you know that

636
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:09,520
he spends the whole first part
like pretending to be a sincere

637
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,720
truth secret and just having
like serious questions and this

638
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:15,200
and that.
Meanwhile, he admitted to me

639
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:20,320
that all along he he he already
had come to his conclusions and

640
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,080
he was just trying to prove
these assumptions through the

641
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:25,680
course of making this
documentary.

642
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,880
But you know, it's not not very
scientific when you start with

643
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:36,120
the the answer before you do the
tests and before you look at the

644
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,480
evidence.
So and especially when evidence

645
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,840
contradicts your conclusions,
you have to either revisit your

646
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,000
conclusion or you have to throw
out the evidence.

647
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,080
And as you'll see as we go
through this conversation he

648
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,520
threw out evidence and still
continues to this data threw out

649
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,680
evidence.
So but let's just play.

650
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:59,840
I got about a 1520 second clip
or so but it kind of and so you

651
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,480
can just you know if if you
can't hear the audio coming

652
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:03,880
through the recording, just let
me know.

653
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,160
But hopefully it is.
No, I was already a part of

654
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:11,400
Doctor I had met, remember?
We filmed a year later, so in

655
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,680
that preview, here is when I
started meeting all those guys

656
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:15,000
and.
Hanging.

657
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,200
Oh, OK.
So you were you were pretty

658
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,520
closely affiliated by the time
you began creating the

659
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,600
documentary?
Yeah, I mean, I I, I love those

660
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:23,640
guys.
I think they're awesome.

661
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,040
Anyone that talks about
doctrine?

662
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,040
Christ, I just think it's
fantastic.

663
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:32,160
So.
OK, so again, just to to I just

664
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,720
want it to come straight from
his mouth that he admitted to me

665
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,960
on this recorded conversation
that he already was buying into

666
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,320
these narratives before he began
producing his documentary.

667
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,480
I'm gonna.
He he says something there that

668
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,720
I think is is super important
and kind of super telling,

669
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,840
right.
The fact that he says, well,

670
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,200
anybody that talks about the
doctrine of Christ, right, you

671
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:02,840
know, good guys, they give this
the most innocuous sounding name

672
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,160
so that it it just, you know,
like who would?

673
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,560
As if Brigham Young never talked
about the doctrine of Christ, or

674
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,040
John Taylor or any of those
guys.

675
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:15,600
And and it's.
Something that we, you know,

676
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,120
let's face it if someone said,
hey, do you want to talk about

677
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,480
the doctrine, you know, pre this
stuff, you want to talk about

678
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,360
the doctrine of Christ, I'm like
well yeah, that that's exactly

679
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,200
what I want to do.
But you don't realize it's it's

680
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,520
back loaded with a whole bunch
of bad history and quite frankly

681
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,640
flat out lies.
They've tried to Co opt it.

682
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,320
They haven't succeeded, but
they're giving it their best

683
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,160
effort.
And so we need to push back on

684
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,760
that and 'cause they don't, they
don't own like the, the

685
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,920
trademark on the the doctrine of
Christ that nobody can.

686
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:54,120
But so this is a very counter
narrative that they're trying to

687
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,240
promote and they, you know, and
they're putting money into it

688
00:39:57,240 --> 00:39:59,800
and they're pretty decent
recruiters and they find people

689
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,400
that are in that position of
vulnerability and then they

690
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,400
exploit it.
So, you know, be warned, anybody

691
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,680
that's listening or if there's
anybody that, you know, warn

692
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:11,800
your neighbors.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna just

693
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,400
play this next clip is a little
bit longer just like a minute

694
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:20,360
and 1/2 or so though and and the
question that I ask is OK.

695
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,320
If you were affiliated with the
doctrine of Christ before you

696
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,760
began producing this
documentary, why didn't you

697
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,880
disclose that?
So let's let's listen to his

698
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,400
answer to that.
Question Was it a conscious

699
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:35,840
decision or just an oversight?
But like, why didn't you

700
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,680
disclose your affiliation with
Doctrine of Christ Phil Davis in

701
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:46,400
the film?
I think, I don't know.

702
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,320
Again, I was affiliated not with
doctrine of Christ, with all

703
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,720
sorts of different.
I was in probably 50 different

704
00:40:52,720 --> 00:40:54,920
Facebook groups.
I was on all sorts of different

705
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,760
forms.
There was all sorts of people I

706
00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:01,160
would listen and talk with, so.
You didn't want to limit

707
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:05,040
yourself to just one.
But I mean there is a point that

708
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:09,520
you're making which which is I
could have said, look I'm not,

709
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,120
I'm not the, I'm not the Mormon
that wrote this that you can be

710
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,320
safe listening to where we grew
up in the church.

711
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,120
And it's like, oh, is he a
Mormon or not?

712
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,360
That's how I'm going to
determine if I read the book and

713
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:22,840
is he apostle or you know,
that's the judgment you make.

714
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,200
I'm not that guy and I didn't, I
didn't make that clear in the

715
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,880
movie.
And you know why?

716
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,080
I was still a member.
If I had said something like

717
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,000
that, it would have been all
over.

718
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:36,720
I was not trying to lose my
membership.

719
00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:38,440
I didn't want to lose my
network.

720
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,600
I didn't want to.
I mean, that was everything.

721
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,760
That was my whole life.
I was not trying to ruin that.

722
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,440
Now, you know, I'm a little bit
more like, OK, I'm OK.

723
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,240
I'm OK to say what's on my mind.
I'll speak my mind.

724
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:54,280
And even if it goes against what
you leave, I'm OK.

725
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,200
But but then.
So that's good enough for there.

726
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,280
Any thoughts on that, Dave?
Oh, OK.

727
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:06,000
So here's the thing, right?
As you know, as a guy who's out

728
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:12,520
there and open, I can totally
respect somebody who wants to

729
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,520
stay in the LDS Church, but you
know, may have some some

730
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,680
differing beliefs and want to
keep that secret, keep that on

731
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,240
the down low, right.
I get it, I get it.

732
00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:27,400
And I'm totally good with
allowing somebody that latitude

733
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,720
because quite frankly.
We all have.

734
00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:33,480
Our various callings to fulfill
some in the church, some out of

735
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,000
the church, whatever the case
may be, So I'm good with that.

736
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,440
However, I feel like once you
take a different approach and

737
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,040
you start putting out content
and you expect people to take

738
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:50,960
that serious, you now step into
another another realm, so to

739
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,240
speak, right?
You've crossed the line.

740
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,120
You've crossed the line and now
you have to own your crap, OK?

741
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,480
And and for those who listen to
this podcast regularly, this is

742
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:05,200
the whole reason that when I
left the branch, I came out very

743
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,320
quickly after that in a little 2
minute blurp and said I'm out of

744
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,000
there, right.
So that there was never a false

745
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,680
pretense under which I was
operating.

746
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,760
Now to say that, well, it was
just a Facebook group and I was,

747
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,640
you know, looking to stay in the
church.

748
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,360
OK, let's just take that at face
value.

749
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:25,640
You wanted to stay in the church
then.

750
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:32,680
Do you think that maybe
producing an entire movie that

751
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,880
destroys the character or
attempts to destroy the

752
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:41,960
character of two of the of the
the 1st 3 presidents of the

753
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,160
church may present a problem?
I mean, if that's what you're

754
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,640
really worried about, Justin, I
don't think you were really on

755
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,520
the right track there.
So I would say you got to kind

756
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,520
of own this, right?
And what what he says there

757
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,040
doesn't hold water.
At some point someone's gonna

758
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,320
see the film and they're gonna
realize it's your face all over

759
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,840
the front of that bad boy and
you're gonna have some questions

760
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,720
to answer anyway.
So why not just come right out

761
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:07,800
and own it?
And so when he said.

762
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:09,520
Answer about I wanna.
Stay.

763
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,040
You know I wasn't looking to
leave.

764
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,280
I call bullcrap.
Well, and the the ironic.

765
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,480
The ironic thing is, he actually
got excommunicated before the

766
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:21,000
video dropped.
Oh, wow.

767
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:27,400
So at that point why not
disclose your affiliation up

768
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,360
front.
Otherwise it's it's very it's

769
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,920
very manipulative, it's very
dishonest because you're you're

770
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,160
you're exploiting a relationship
of trust.

771
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,280
You know Mormons, we tend to
think that other Mormons are

772
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,600
trustworthy.
You know we we you know if if

773
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,960
you if you understand that
you're a member of the same

774
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,800
church there's some baked in
expectations with that and he

775
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:57,280
abused he exploited those that
position of trust even though he

776
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:03,000
had been exed and he he knew and
he admits this I'm not that guy

777
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,560
I'm not a safe person for
somebody that believes in the

778
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,440
church you know doctrines and
and history.

779
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,800
He he admitted and he knew he
admitted he knew going in that

780
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,880
he was being manipulative and
dishonest.

781
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:22,800
And so I think that that is a
very big problem and and it I'm

782
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,040
glad that he admitted to me on
this recorded conversation that

783
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,000
the truth about that but it
doesn't undo all of the hundreds

784
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,640
of I don't know thousands maybe.
I don't know how many people

785
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,920
watched his show and it shook
him and you know maybe they he

786
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,560
he they got recruited to join
his movement or maybe they just

787
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,520
went atheist or anti Mormon or
maybe they stayed in the church

788
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,560
but it just caused him a lot of
spiritual turmoil.

789
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,120
I don't know but that is
reckless and irresponsible and

790
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:56,520
and so I'm I I just wanted to
call him out on that and then as

791
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:01,960
you were saying you know take
some ownership dude like men own

792
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,320
their crap if we do something
wrong.

793
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:09,280
If we if we do something you you
you need, it's it's a very

794
00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:14,240
important aspect of manhood to
own your actions.

795
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,840
And and so I kind of pushed back
on this cause, 'cause he was

796
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,280
like trying to basically play
the victim card.

797
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,800
I didn't want to lose my
membership in the church.

798
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,560
And so, you know, like, and I
understand why, 'cause he had

799
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,960
his network like that was he
loses his credibility as a

800
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,120
recruiter for his Doctrine of
Christ movement.

801
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,480
If he's gets exed you know
imagine if if he was still a

802
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,760
member to this day and he could
like DM people private message

803
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:46,800
people and like talk about
basically hey what do you think

804
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,720
about you know President
Nelson's mask encouraging and

805
00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:54,640
you know and just exploiting
people who already are you know

806
00:46:54,920 --> 00:47:00,120
struggling with things that the
church does and and and to have

807
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,800
that you know position of trust
to claim that you're that you're

808
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:09,320
a member of the church it gives
him an in to a lot of people.

809
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,520
But anyway, so I asked him.
In fact, I I'll just.

810
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,160
But.
Before we go to that clip, I

811
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,800
just want to make sure 'cause I
think this is a huge point here.

812
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:23,440
We need to keep in mind that
whole, that whole first movie.

813
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,760
He approaches it from the
standpoint he's an active member

814
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:31,600
in good standing with the
church, and during that filming

815
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,760
process you're saying he was ex
somewhere in that process.

816
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,880
He was excommunicated before the
movie was released.

817
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,320
I don't know.
I I don't know.

818
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:47,080
And if I did, I don't remember
how long like he he.

819
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,280
I presume that he was still an
an active, you know, member in

820
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,840
good standing, like he hadn't
been exed at least when he had

821
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:58,000
started filming, but before he
finished filming, 'cause he in

822
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,280
the movie, he actually at like
the at the very towards the end

823
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:06,520
he admits that he just got
excommunicated and in part one

824
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:13,880
and so it's like, OK, so you got
excommunicated, but you didn't

825
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,960
disclose that at the first part
like that.

826
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,440
To me, that changes everything.
He should have gone.

827
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,160
That changes absolutely
everything 'cause I was like OK,

828
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,920
even if it's in post production.
Yes.

829
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:28,800
Throw a little disclaimer on the
at the very beginning or the

830
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,400
very end of the movie saying I,
you know, I'm not affiliated

831
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,200
with the LDS Church anymore, but
instead he plays this out all

832
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,640
the way through until the very.
Yeah, and he does.

833
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:43,480
He does have at the end of the
movie, like the the he discloses

834
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,440
that he was excommunicated in
part one.

835
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,280
But to me, the damage has
already been done at that point.

836
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,000
That should have been disclosed
up front.

837
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,720
And he's certainly was dishonest
in the way he presented 'cause

838
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:58,800
he was he like he had just
admitted, we just listened to

839
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,840
the clip.
He admitted that he was

840
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,120
affiliated with Phil Davis and
the Doctrine of Christ movement

841
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,840
before he even began filming
anything on part one.

842
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:14,280
Yeah, So that's that's just a
private agenda or a, you know,

843
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,120
dirty, dirty.
Pool.

844
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,440
Dirty.
All right, so let's let's listen

845
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:22,880
to this next clip.
Surely you weren't surprised

846
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,400
that the church took action
after, I mean.

847
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,960
Because you came out and
basically accused their second

848
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,360
and third, possibly more
presidents of conspiracy or or

849
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,800
murder.
Like, did you really think that

850
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,880
the church wasn't going to do
anything in response, like as a

851
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:45,440
response to that?
Yeah, I mean, I'm not crazy or

852
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:51,800
naive, but you know, if I if I
had my dream come true, it would

853
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:57,200
be them putting resources that I
don't have into this.

854
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,480
Hey, let's investigate this and
figure out.

855
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:06,480
So he's not naive, but he wants
to the church to put resources

856
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:08,920
into investigating the Carthage
conspiracy.

857
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:14,160
But he's not naive.
I mean, really, I don't.

858
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,120
Yeah, yeah, I'll, I'll stop
there.

859
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,120
I was gonna say something else,
but I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop

860
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:27,080
there because the the fact that
look, had I started this podcast

861
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:31,480
when I was still, you know, an
active member of the LDS church,

862
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,120
I would fully expect to get
hauled in, right.

863
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,880
I would fully expect to get,
like brought in.

864
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,880
There should be no doubt in your
mind on this.

865
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,680
And so he acts like Golly Gee
Wally.

866
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,920
I just wanted him to do some
more research and it's just too

867
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:54,040
bad it didn't go that direction.
Yeah.

868
00:50:55,760 --> 00:51:01,800
So and and as to so Well I'll
save that there's we're gonna

869
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,920
kind of come back to this theme
here in a little bit with some

870
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,920
future clips.
But so let's just keep moving on

871
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:13,360
here 'cause we could go we could
just watch the whole thing and

872
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,520
like pause it every 30 seconds
and just comment and and insert.

873
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,960
But but there's a few specific
clips I want to highlight that I

874
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,440
think are worth examining
together and and I just want to

875
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:24,560
stay focused on that.
So.

876
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:28,960
So this in in at the 33 1/2
minute mark or so.

877
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:31,760
I asked him the next question so
we'll just go from there.

878
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:37,080
So what I, I, I, I I guess, you
know, in our Facebook or our

879
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:38,960
YouTube comments back and forth,
I.

880
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,000
You said I was making some
assumptions.

881
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:42,320
I don't.
I just want to hear it straight

882
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:43,160
from your mouth.
So what?

883
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:46,520
What do you believe John
Taylor's motive was if he

884
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,920
murdered Joseph and Hiram?
So I'm not ready to comment on

885
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,360
that.
It would, I can't say, I cannot

886
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,440
say with as much confidence on
the motive as I can on the

887
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:58,920
evidence.
So that's one thing I want to

888
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,960
get stronger at as the motive
and explaining all of that.

889
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,280
But for right now, I I don't
want to do that until I'm ready.

890
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:15,080
OK OK so this I think is really
key because this is I think the

891
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,080
first time.
Remember I I sent this to him

892
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,000
days in advance.
I did not blind side him with

893
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,320
any of these questions.
He had days to think about his

894
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:31,280
answer and he chose to not
comment on the motive and

895
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:37,480
because but but but the real the
reality is like I have a friend

896
00:52:37,720 --> 00:52:42,720
his brother was a homicide
detective for 20 years and and I

897
00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:46,280
asked my friend to ask his
brother do do homicide

898
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:50,520
detectives investigate a murder
and only look at forensic

899
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:55,600
evidence and in a vacuum and
ignore motive and and and you

900
00:52:55,600 --> 00:53:01,600
know other context and and and
circumstances and he said are

901
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,840
you crazy.
Nobody ever does that.

902
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,680
You when you're investigating a
murder you're always looking at

903
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:12,000
motive as you're analyzing
evidence and collecting you know

904
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,680
evidence And so like a good
detective would never divorce

905
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:19,000
those two and and look at them
in isolation of one another

906
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:24,720
they're they're inextricably
interwoven and so so basically

907
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:29,480
what Justin, if if this is
accurate, if he's being honest

908
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,960
with me here and he does is
expressing maybe a little

909
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,080
humility like I just am not
ready.

910
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:37,720
I'm not.
I'm I I don't know for sure.

911
00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:39,000
I haven't thought it through
enough.

912
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:40,000
I haven't.
Whatever.

913
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:44,280
The fact that he's declining to
comment on motive at all at this

914
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:50,400
juncture proves he was not ready
to release part one 'cause

915
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,880
you're if you're not prepared on
motive, you got no business

916
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:59,280
accusing somebody of murder
using 160 years ago whenever it

917
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,920
was on the basis of only
forensic evidence, even if the

918
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:08,040
even if the evidence was like
solid you.

919
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:15,520
It's premature to to jump to
murder accusations and so go

920
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:18,480
ahead, let.
Let me ask you this, during this

921
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:22,680
time when as you're getting
prepared to have this exchange

922
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:27,160
with with Justin Griffin, are
you hearing any rumors or

923
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,120
reports or anything that that
maybe he's already spilled the

924
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,640
beans to other people about what
he thinks the motive could be?

925
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,760
Kimberly Watson Smith had shared
a couple of things that he had

926
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,960
posted in Facebook.
I was not on Facebook, but yeah,

927
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,760
but so cause 'cause like like
she was kind of trying to keep

928
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,840
tabs on things that was going on
in those groups in those

929
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:59,040
circles.
And so and so I think it was

930
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:03,160
actually he was not being
completely honest with me, but I

931
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:07,600
think he, I, I, I'm open to the
possibility that he, he did not

932
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,320
feel prepared to engage with me
on the motive.

933
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:16,880
But again then why are you
putting out a documentary?

934
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:23,880
Yeah, So anyway, so let's let's
keep jumping ahead cause on this

935
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,720
same topic, I've got a time
stamp here at the one hour 11

936
00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:31,920
minute just right around here.
Whoops.

937
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:37,680
So this next section I'm trying
to pivot back into motive.

938
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,640
So we've been talking for over
1/2 hour.

939
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:45,080
Between then and now and then,
what we do know, I'm going to

940
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:46,880
push back on and.
Try not to speculate too much

941
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:48,920
about things we don't know.
Fair enough.

942
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,880
And and let's pivot into motive
if you if you're OK with that.

943
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:55,840
Like telling me what you think
motive is.

944
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:59,080
Or sure, I don't want to discuss
motive.

945
00:55:59,240 --> 00:56:01,280
I'm not.
The point of the movie is to

946
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:02,920
discuss motive.
It's.

947
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:04,800
Just.
But you can't accuse men of

948
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,120
murder without motive.
I'm not trying to accuse anyone

949
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:09,800
of murder.
I'm trying to say here's what I

950
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,280
think happened in that room.
Which is a murder.

951
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:18,040
So but it.
It's holy crap.

952
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:21,160
This is right out of Bill
Clinton's playbook.

953
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:27,840
Depends on what your definition
definition of is is OK, I'm just

954
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:30,040
saying they're in the room.
Well, no.

955
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,520
In the movie you actually
portray, you know, Willard

956
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:39,320
Richards and John Taylor firing
at Joseph and Hiram, so.

957
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:42,400
Yeah, in his reenactment.
Yeah, in his reenactment.

958
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,720
So, no, you you are accusing
them of murder.

959
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,360
Now tell us the motive.
Why, Why is this?

960
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,320
Why is this happening?
And here's the other thing, you

961
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,960
you were very generous in
saying, even if the evidence was

962
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,920
rock solid, but the evidence
isn't rock solid.

963
00:56:57,240 --> 00:57:02,920
I mean, realistically, I mean,
you've got to do suspend some

964
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,600
serious reasoning and go
completely on faith.

965
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:09,440
I mean, you need more faith to
believe in the evidence that he

966
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,160
presents you.
You need to exercise more faith

967
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,440
in that than you do in just
reading the Book of Mormon.

968
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:21,200
I mean, holy cow, that's.
And the reason it's seductive

969
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,280
it's it's it's seductive because
it's a pleasing doctrine that it

970
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:30,440
the idea that that that you you
can accept Joseph Smith's

971
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:32,880
prophetic mission cause a lot of
people sincerely have a

972
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,840
conversion story like they they
have a a witness or a spiritual

973
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,920
experience and they've you know
and they've spent their whole

974
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:44,200
lives investing in that
spiritual experience this this

975
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:49,080
narrative is so pleasing to the
carnal mind because it allows

976
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:53,320
you to retain that but reject
everything to do with polygamy

977
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:59,520
and and but the the 1st is if
you get exactly the the the at

978
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:03,840
at what cost you know the only
revelation that ever talked

979
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,240
about eternal marriage is the
same revelation that talks about

980
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:10,440
polygamy and so you throw out
polygamy and it's like now you

981
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,600
have to be a complete like
buffet style selective.

982
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,760
Oh I like I like the idea of
eternal marriage but you know I

983
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:20,560
I'll I'll pass on the polygamy.
The gospel is not a buffet that

984
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:22,800
you can just pick and choose the
things you like about it.

985
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:27,000
It is either true or it's not.
And if you if you decide to

986
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:32,920
reject a peace, then, well, you
pick up the other end of that

987
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,440
stick too.
But this is this.

988
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:39,000
This is why it's so seductive, I
think, and persuasive to a lot

989
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,080
of people, is it?
It gives them an out so that

990
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,040
they can think that they can,
you know, have their key cake

991
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:46,600
and eat it too.
Right.

992
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,000
So this next is a quick clip.
I'll just play it, yeah.

993
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:55,760
And there are.
Multiple plausible models.

994
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:00,840
Oh yeah, I I presented how many?
Seven in the movie 6 or 7?

995
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,960
Yeah, but you picked the six
arbitrary points that Youth

996
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,360
seemed to say disproves.
Each again, you say arbitrary

997
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,720
points, and I'm not.
I just picked the evidence.

998
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:14,720
I picked the physical, hard
scientific evidence to base them

999
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:15,600
off of.
That's right.

1000
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,680
But you didn't.
Actually, I didn't do.

1001
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,160
I didn't do.
You know what I get so many

1002
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:24,240
historians so pissed off about?
You didn't follow his story.

1003
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,440
I'm like, what if I care about
historians?

1004
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,280
How does that tell me this blood
in the back of the What is a

1005
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,520
historian going to tell me about
the blood in the back of a crime

1006
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:34,920
scene?
Nothing.

1007
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,480
So I'm like, this was not about
history and everyone tries to

1008
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,800
bring in history and testimonies
from this guy and the mob said

1009
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,280
they did it.
And I'm like, I'm not trying to

1010
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,800
prove any of that.
I just want to look at the 2 to

1011
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,960
3 minutes in that crime scene,
what happened?

1012
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:52,080
Because we've gone all this time
thinking it's what the two

1013
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,480
eyewitnesses said and everyone
says that can't be possible.

1014
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:57,680
So what happened?
That's what we're trying to

1015
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:04,080
figure out.
OK, so in that little clip he he

1016
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:11,880
does admit that other models are
possible, but then he denies the

1017
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,120
value of history.
Like, you know, history has no

1018
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,200
bearing on a on a forensic
analysis.

1019
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,520
And he claims that there's
sufficient forensic evidence to

1020
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,600
reach a definitive conclusion.
But but he had just admitted

1021
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:26,240
that other models are possible.
But then he argues that his

1022
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:27,960
model is the only one that's
possible.

1023
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:32,440
Like it, just the level of
cognitive dissonance and

1024
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:35,800
intellectual double standards
and dishonesty that we just

1025
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:39,440
observed is is astonishing.
He's just talking out of both

1026
01:00:39,440 --> 01:00:44,160
sides of his mouth and I don't
even think he even is aware of

1027
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:48,720
of of how absurd these
statements because they're

1028
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:50,640
incompatible.
They cannot all be.

1029
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,600
You can't have other models that
are pause, plausible but his

1030
01:00:54,600 --> 01:00:57,320
model's the only one.
Those are mutually exclusive

1031
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,200
statements.
And yet he's just making them

1032
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:02,640
one after another and and he,
you know, denying the value of

1033
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:08,520
history like this, this crime
scene as he calls it, is 160

1034
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:14,320
years old.
That's the definition of.

1035
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,520
History that that's that's his
like it's not like it's not like

1036
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,800
there's some you know yellow
caution tape saying crime scene

1037
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:25,200
active investigation in progress
like that for the last 180

1038
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,400
years.
So we are completely reliant

1039
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:32,600
upon historical documents and
affidavits and testimonies and

1040
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:39,560
you know evident historical
evidences to have any hope of

1041
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,880
understanding what happened in
that location 180 years ago.

1042
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:47,400
So, so he he just throws out the
value of history blanket, which

1043
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,920
is very interesting, claims that
there's now that was another key

1044
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,600
thing in this clip.
He claims that there's

1045
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,080
sufficient forensic evidence to
reach a definitive conclusion

1046
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,480
about what happened.
But as we're going to see in in

1047
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:05,360
the next like I think 2 clips or
two or three clips there, three

1048
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,640
clips down.
He completely walks that back.

1049
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:13,280
So let's just keep moving along.
I have the next clip queued up

1050
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,960
here.
If I can get to the, there we

1051
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:17,880
go.
Theory.

1052
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,560
I just wanted to know if there
I'm in your shoes.

1053
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:22,840
I just wanted to say, is that
possible or not?

1054
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,880
And the first thing I did was
prove that the Carthage

1055
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,960
conspiracy theory could not have
worked.

1056
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:31,160
It could so he.
He claims here that the first

1057
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,240
thing he did was to prove that
that Carthage conspiracy like

1058
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:39,600
that that VHS quality 1980s RLDS
Fundamentalist presentation on

1059
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:43,480
the Carthage conspiracy that
that he's he claims that he

1060
01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:47,760
proved that that didn't work yet
in in the movie, like in the

1061
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,840
documentary, in the film Who
killed Joseph Smith, Justin

1062
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:54,760
Griffin says that Sam Weston was
the one who convinced him the

1063
01:02:54,760 --> 01:03:00,200
angles could work, basically
disproving that, you know, 1980s

1064
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:05,640
theory from the RLDS guy.
So, so just so Griffin just told

1065
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:07,800
me at the beginning of the
conversation he didn't go to Sam

1066
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:09,600
Weston first in his
investigation.

1067
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:12,640
So.
So he's all over the place with

1068
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:15,280
this.
Either he's lying in the film

1069
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:19,000
where he attributes to Sam
Weston the credit of proving

1070
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:22,320
that the Carthage conspiracy
couldn't work, or he just lied

1071
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:27,120
to me, to my face saying that it
was the first thing that he did

1072
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,560
was prove the Carthage
conspiracy didn't work.

1073
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:33,480
So it's just I get I I wanted to
highlight that little you know,

1074
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:37,600
20 seconds as it just another
example of revisionism and

1075
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:39,920
gaslighting.
Like this is what emotionally

1076
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,960
abusive people do to victims.
Is they just gaslight and get

1077
01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:49,040
you to question like your
sanity, your memory, and and and

1078
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,640
and and also self aggrandizement
'cause he's basically now,

1079
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:55,400
instead of attributing to Sam
Weston the credit of convincing

1080
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,480
him that the angles could work
and so therefore debunking the

1081
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:02,000
Carthage conspiracy by the RLDS
guy, he's now taking credit unto

1082
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:06,480
himself for disproving that.
Jeez.

1083
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:11,440
OK, so the next clip.
Backlash for that, but I don't

1084
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:13,320
care.
That's the more integris thing

1085
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:18,200
to do and if you go do the work
to create a theory, that's when

1086
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,040
you'll start saying oh man, I
can see why he said what he

1087
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:22,680
said.
You'll see how I came up with

1088
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,400
it.
OK, so Justin Griffin, whether

1089
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:30,000
he intended or realized it or
not, just made a prophecy.

1090
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,360
He prophesied that if you go to
the work to create a theory,

1091
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,520
that's when you'll start saying,
oh, he's got a point.

1092
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:42,960
As we'll see in the next few
minutes, this was a completely

1093
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:45,720
false prophecy and he actually
admits it.

1094
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:50,040
So just for the record, next
clip.

1095
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:51,560
Said what?
He said.

1096
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,480
You'll see how I came up with it
and I had to fill a ton of holes

1097
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:57,760
in because there's only so much
evidence and it was a long time

1098
01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,920
ago.
So you have to fill in and I'm

1099
01:04:59,960 --> 01:05:02,040
like, maybe his body was here,
that's how.

1100
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,200
And that that, yeah, I made a
bunch of assumptions in the way

1101
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,720
that I made that reenactment for
sure.

1102
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:16,720
I made a bunch of assumptions
starting.

1103
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:18,720
With and he filled in a bunch of
holes.

1104
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:22,120
Yeah, I said.
Oh jeez, I had to make a bunch

1105
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:26,040
of assumptions starting.
With he literally just admitted

1106
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,160
he made it up, 'cause there's
not enough evidence like that's

1107
01:05:29,240 --> 01:05:32,080
that is literally what he just
said, what just came out of his

1108
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:37,280
mouth and now you understand why
he set this conversation to

1109
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:41,320
private on his YouTube channel.
Right, right.

1110
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:45,960
Oh, it's despicable, right.
Because I mean if you watch

1111
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:51,200
that, that first film and and in
Full disclosure I couldn't get

1112
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:53,040
through the second one.
I kept falling asleep.

1113
01:05:53,360 --> 01:06:00,120
But in that first film I mean as
he's showing what what he

1114
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,000
purports to have actually
happened.

1115
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,720
Right.
He's not doing this with well

1116
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:09,160
this might be it.
I had to I had to fill in some

1117
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:12,920
holes here This is this is just
my opinion.

1118
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,240
No he's coming strong in the
paint, right.

1119
01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:19,080
He's saying, this is the way,
this is the only way this could

1120
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:22,680
have went down.
And he goes to great lengths to

1121
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:28,680
show that his narrative is the
only one that can make sense,

1122
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:32,880
both from a forensic standpoint
as well as a historical one.

1123
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:37,400
And so for him to backpedal like
this and be like, well, yeah, I

1124
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,520
had to fill in the holes.
There's nothing there.

1125
01:06:39,520 --> 01:06:41,640
Yeah, well, no, no crap.
I.

1126
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,520
Mean, I had to make a bunch of
assumptions for sure.

1127
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:46,400
Yeah.
His words.

1128
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:49,960
OK.
Next clip with a series, that's

1129
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:52,920
just how it's gonna be.
And so then you measure all of

1130
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:55,680
them against the evidence, and
that's how you start to measure

1131
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,040
which one is most likely.
So what's available today?

1132
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:01,560
There's one that is clearly the
most likely.

1133
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:03,000
What happened?
Is it perfect?

1134
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,440
No, it's just most likely.
OK, I'm gonna pause it right

1135
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:08,440
there.
This I think is actually very

1136
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:14,040
significant because what he just
revealed to us is his

1137
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:19,640
epistemology and and by
epistemology I mean like what

1138
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:22,720
How does he arrive at what he
perceives as truth.

1139
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:25,800
You know some people there's
there's all sorts of different

1140
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:29,320
epistemologies reason you know
empirical you know you have to

1141
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:31,320
touch feel see it taste smell
it.

1142
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:36,080
You know there's there's all
sorts of epistemologies and and

1143
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:39,520
and so his epistemology here is
probability.

1144
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:43,080
He just said that it's not a
it's not about it's it's it's

1145
01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:44,320
not about what could have
happened.

1146
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:48,200
It's not what is most likely to
have happened And so it's not

1147
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:51,120
about the documented facts and
and what people who were there

1148
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:54,400
said happened.
He's only looking at you know

1149
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:59,320
mathematical and you know
ballistic probabilities and and

1150
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:03,240
and he's saying if it's not the
most likely thing it couldn't

1151
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:08,120
have happened but this is
ridiculous because every day

1152
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,520
extremely improbable things
happen all the time in real life

1153
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:17,920
right.
And and and I present some

1154
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:20,600
documentation so anyway I don't
wanna do spoiler we're gonna get

1155
01:08:20,600 --> 01:08:25,200
to that point let's let's move
on to his next ridiculous

1156
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:28,680
statement and you know Dave
you're gonna you're gonna love

1157
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:31,160
this one.
Just the.

1158
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:31,920
Absurdity.
His head.

1159
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:36,080
Mm hmm.
All while the mob is in the door

1160
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,359
behind him and guys on the
outside are shooting at him.

1161
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,600
Willard's a pretty big guy.
He would have filled that window

1162
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:45,000
if the bullets were buzzing by
his head.

1163
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:49,880
Where were they hitting?
Somewhere in the room.

1164
01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:52,479
No.
He filled the window.

1165
01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:59,000
They would have.
OK, so so Dave, you're a big guy

1166
01:09:02,359 --> 01:09:09,000
when you're standing in a window
and you're looking out that

1167
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:14,520
window, and if there were
bullets being shot at you as you

1168
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:17,040
were standing in that window
that didn't hit you, they were

1169
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:22,040
whizzing by you.
How is that possible 'cause you

1170
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:25,040
were filling the window?
Well, I can.

1171
01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:29,520
I can tell you what my response
would be, which is to get my

1172
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,600
great big fat ass out from in
front of the window and maybe

1173
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:36,760
hit the deck.
But hey, I don't live in in 19th

1174
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:39,800
century America either.
So I I mean, maybe, maybe those

1175
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:42,000
things stop at the 19th century.
I mean.

1176
01:09:42,319 --> 01:09:45,399
If people were shooting at you
through a window from down

1177
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:49,160
below, do you think you'd just,
like walk over and and your

1178
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,960
whole frame would come fill the
entire opening of the?

1179
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:55,480
You would probably be like
crouching down and peeking over

1180
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:58,920
the sill, right?
Or even if you were standing.

1181
01:09:59,440 --> 01:10:02,200
Here's the thing, if you're
standing, unless you're unless

1182
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:05,760
the window at the the top end of
the window comes below your

1183
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:09,240
chin, like if you're actually
seeing through the window or

1184
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:12,360
looking out the window.
What do you think all this space

1185
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:13,480
is?
Yeah.

1186
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:15,680
Yeah, you know, to either side
of your head.

1187
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:18,760
And he's just throwing that.
I'm like OK.

1188
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,200
Well, and and let's talk about
this from a Ballistics point of

1189
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:27,120
view, OK, yeah, those are not,
quote, sniper rifles.

1190
01:10:27,120 --> 01:10:29,480
They are using in the 19th
century, right?

1191
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:34,040
They they are.
They are able to to take down a

1192
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:38,000
deer or an elk at at a pretty
decent distance, but you're

1193
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:42,640
aiming at a big target, OK?
You're not aiming at some dude's

1194
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:44,280
head.
And I don't care how fat that

1195
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:47,640
dude is, I promise you, his
whole head is not taking up the

1196
01:10:47,640 --> 01:10:51,960
window.
And so it's it's just a

1197
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:55,120
falsehood.
It just doesn't hold water.

1198
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:59,880
Again, they're aiming at a small
target with less than precision

1199
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:03,000
instruments, right?
Firearms.

1200
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:07,320
And I mean they don't even have
scopes, right?

1201
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:10,160
And so.
Well, and it wasn't that far of

1202
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,520
a shot.
I mean with a long gun, even a

1203
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:16,160
musket of a period musket, like,
it's actually not that hard of a

1204
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:21,040
shot, 'cause they were within 50
feet, you know, many of them

1205
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,800
but, but but The thing is like,
because why was he, why was this

1206
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:27,040
even coming up?
He was trying to say that the

1207
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:30,120
eyewitness accounts, one of
which is Willard Richards, are

1208
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:36,240
impossible and and and and and
where he's targeting in on the

1209
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:39,800
eyewitness account is Willard
Richards saying that bullets

1210
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:42,360
were whizzing past his head as
he glanced through the window

1211
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:47,400
like and he's and he's trying to
persuade me that that discredits

1212
01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:50,200
the eyewitness testimony.
So anyway.

1213
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,080
Willard doesn't say.
While I was standing in front of

1214
01:11:53,080 --> 01:11:55,760
the window as bullets were
whizzing by me.

1215
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:57,960
He just says as I was looking
out the window.

1216
01:11:58,520 --> 01:12:00,600
Bullets are flying past my head
that there's.

1217
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,200
A huge difference there.
And I I don't remember.

1218
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:05,400
I can't remember if he said he
was standing near the window but

1219
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:07,840
but I mean even if you were
standing up you wouldn't just

1220
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:11,280
like, oh I I see a mob out there
with a bunch of guns and they're

1221
01:12:11,280 --> 01:12:13,840
trying to shoot us in here.
So I'm going to just you would

1222
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:17,200
still like peek around the
corner of the window and and you

1223
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:19,040
know because you're not trying
to make yourself a huge target.

1224
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:22,200
So anyway we we're going to keep
moving on.

1225
01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:25,040
There's a couple more clips in
this conversation that I want to

1226
01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:26,840
hit.
Possible is Joseph, because we

1227
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:30,880
have no evidence of what those
shots were, No clothing, no

1228
01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:33,080
description of the nothing like
that.

1229
01:12:33,080 --> 01:12:35,640
But everyone else, we know the
description of their wounds.

1230
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:38,240
We had their clothes, we had the
measures, We know they weren't

1231
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:39,760
muskets.
And that's a big.

1232
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:41,400
What were the?
What were the size of the

1233
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:42,960
bullet?
Holes in hiram's clothing.

1234
01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:49,960
So the one in his back, God,
that's a good question.

1235
01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:53,920
I think it's, I think it's
musket size, musket ball size.

1236
01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:59,760
So how was that explained?
Cause in the movie I put that as

1237
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:03,880
a pistol.
So I guess, oh, This is why my

1238
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:07,800
feeling is so the eyewitnesses
say that that was, that was a

1239
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:09,200
shot that came through the
window.

1240
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:10,480
I'll, I'll just stop it right
there.

1241
01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:17,760
Holy cow, if you made a whole
documentary about this, wouldn't

1242
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:20,400
you kind of try to cover your
bases if you thought you were

1243
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:24,520
really presenting historical
evidence right when?

1244
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:29,000
When you go to, like the He was
just trying to hang his hat on

1245
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:32,040
this a few minutes ago.
In that one clip where he says I

1246
01:13:32,040 --> 01:13:34,800
ignored history, I just looked
at forensics.

1247
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:37,000
OK, great.
Let's look at the forensics.

1248
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:40,040
What size was the ball that hit?
Hit higher.

1249
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:41,920
Oh, gosh.
You know what?

1250
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:44,560
That's a darn good question.
I should look into that.

1251
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:46,640
Whoa.
And he Well, he knew.

1252
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:48,360
He knew the answer.
He was just kind of being a

1253
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:51,640
little cagey there, 'cause he
knew for he knew absolutely that

1254
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:56,320
it was .69 inches in diameter,
which is a musket ball caliber,

1255
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:59,040
not a pistol.
And and and that was the point

1256
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:02,800
here, is he was trying to defend
his theory that like cause in

1257
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:06,080
his theory he had him using
pistols only for all of the the

1258
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:10,000
gunshots.
And I'm like, you know, have you

1259
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:13,440
ever seen that Dave Chappelle
clip where he's like, gotcha.

1260
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:18,160
That's what this moment is is is
he is just talk about

1261
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:21,160
inconsistency.
He he repeats ad nauseam that

1262
01:14:21,160 --> 01:14:23,160
the eyewitnesses are not
credible.

1263
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:27,160
Yet when he gets caught lying,
what did he do?

1264
01:14:27,160 --> 01:14:29,760
He defaulted immediately back to
the eyewitness accounts.

1265
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:32,320
Well.
And here's cause, 'cause if you

1266
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,680
caught that, he was like the
eyewitnesses say that the shot

1267
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:37,720
that that was a shot, that it
came through the window.

1268
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:41,640
So that was, you know, when I
called him on his, on his lie,

1269
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:45,040
on his bluff, he deferted.
He reverted back to that

1270
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:48,000
eyewitness account on saying
that, yeah, that ball must have

1271
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:49,320
come.
So that was the one and only

1272
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:52,120
ball that came through the the
window, the one that hit Hiram

1273
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:53,680
in the back.
Nice.

1274
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:55,960
That's that's convenient.
That's convenient.

1275
01:14:56,200 --> 01:15:00,360
Now now let me say this too.
The one thing that that seems to

1276
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:04,920
be beyond doubt is the firearms
that were smuggled in to John

1277
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:08,120
Taylor and Willard Richards and
Joseph Smith, right?

1278
01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:12,400
That's factual beyond reproach
cause not only do we have

1279
01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:16,840
Willard Richards and John Taylor
talking about it, but also if

1280
01:15:16,840 --> 01:15:20,240
I'm not mistaken, we have the
guy's testimony who dropped

1281
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:24,480
those firearms off so they
didn't smuggle in a musket,

1282
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:26,760
right.
So the fact that the shot that

1283
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:31,160
that gets Hiram in the back is a
musket is very telling and quite

1284
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:36,280
frankly pokes pokes a lot of
holes in in Justin's argument.

1285
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:43,080
I mean, that alone is smoking
gun roof that his theory as as

1286
01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:47,240
presented in his re enactment is
impossible.

1287
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:49,080
Yeah.
OK.

1288
01:15:49,480 --> 01:15:51,240
All right.
So this next little bit, I I

1289
01:15:51,240 --> 01:15:53,440
love these these.
So there's a short little clip

1290
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:54,800
and then I'll play another
longer one.

1291
01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:57,440
OK, here we go.
Then when I shot mine, but I was

1292
01:15:57,440 --> 01:16:00,360
like, well, mine's not a musket.
So I had a bunch of ballistic.

1293
01:16:00,360 --> 01:16:03,800
I mean, I had at least 10 gun
experts call me afterwards and

1294
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:06,400
say you did that wrong, you
needed a musket.

1295
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,840
And I was like, you're right,
I'm not an expert myself, but

1296
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:12,640
whatever, it's fine.
I'm not a Ballistics expert, but

1297
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,880
OK.
So twice there within a minute

1298
01:16:16,200 --> 01:16:18,680
he he repeats that I'm not an
expert.

1299
01:16:20,480 --> 01:16:24,840
No Justin, you're not.
I I will agree with you on that

1300
01:16:24,840 --> 01:16:28,680
one thing if nothing else.
So The thing is when he's

1301
01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:34,120
setting up his like you know
replica shots with the ballistic

1302
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:38,120
dummy gel heads, you know with
with loaded with all the blood

1303
01:16:38,120 --> 01:16:43,160
colored dye for dramatic effect,
you know those are apples to

1304
01:16:43,160 --> 01:16:47,600
orange comparisons.
They do not reflect accurate

1305
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:51,320
reenactments of of the shots
that that we know occurred at

1306
01:16:51,320 --> 01:16:57,560
Carthage.
And so like those are are not

1307
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:01,320
he.
He's just revealing his

1308
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:04,360
ignorance and he is
acknowledging that to me in

1309
01:17:04,360 --> 01:17:05,560
this.
So at least he's being honest

1310
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:09,680
about that one thing.
Well, and and he to to his

1311
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:14,960
credit, he says, you know I had
10 different ballistic experts

1312
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:20,760
call me and call BS on it and
that should give people pause in

1313
01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:23,440
that moment.
Yep.

1314
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:25,280
All right.
Next clip.

1315
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:28,880
He was trying to get out of the
room for whatever reason.

1316
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:30,720
His motives, you know, we're not
going to speculate on that.

1317
01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:34,240
And in doing so was struck by
balls in front and behind, and

1318
01:17:34,240 --> 01:17:36,880
it's so if he was.
In they were active, trying and

1319
01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:38,040
out.
I can agree with that.

1320
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:41,640
He was struck inside of the room
and outside of the room he was

1321
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:44,720
also shot by the mob.
I agree with that, OK.

1322
01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:49,760
This is interesting cause
previously he had had taken the

1323
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:53,280
a position that no one was
shooting from outside or would

1324
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:55,960
have been capable of shooting
from outside and in his re

1325
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:58,440
enactment all of the shots
originated from inside the room.

1326
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:00,960
So this.
So wait, did he change?

1327
01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:04,840
Did I change his mind?
Or did he lie in his film?

1328
01:18:05,120 --> 01:18:09,840
Or is he lying to me now?
Like, take your pick, 'cause

1329
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:13,560
they can't all be true.
Like you can't be being honest

1330
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:17,800
in all of these.
So like, 'cause earlier he was

1331
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:21,120
saying, let's see, Yeah, earlier
he had said that the mob

1332
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:23,200
wouldn't shoot in the direction
of the mob.

1333
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:25,040
I don't think I played that
clip, but that was one of the

1334
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:26,680
things that he had said in the
conversation.

1335
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:29,640
So what happened to the mob
wouldn't shoot in the direction

1336
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:32,080
of the mob or what happened to,
you know, his.

1337
01:18:32,480 --> 01:18:35,760
When he claimed that Hiram
wasn't shot from outside, it was

1338
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:38,960
too hard of a shot.
It was like too hard of a far of

1339
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:42,640
a range, or the angles were too
hard, or the what happened to

1340
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:45,440
Willard?
Richards lied when he claimed

1341
01:18:45,440 --> 01:18:48,480
that shots came in from the
window or the OR you know,

1342
01:18:48,480 --> 01:18:51,000
Griffin's claim that the lack of
damage on remaining walls

1343
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,920
disproves an external mob's
involvement or or his

1344
01:18:54,240 --> 01:18:56,800
reenactment showing all the
thought the shots came like what

1345
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:00,920
happened to all of those
positions that he has taken on

1346
01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:03,800
camera.
He's on the record taking all of

1347
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:10,360
those positions, and yet he just
acknowledged and agreed with me

1348
01:19:11,240 --> 01:19:17,840
that Joseph was shot both inside
and outside the room, Right I I

1349
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:21,760
considered making a video
compilation and calling it

1350
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:23,800
Justin Griffin versus Justin
Griffin.

1351
01:19:24,440 --> 01:19:27,560
Dude, that would have been.
Awesome.

1352
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,120
So anyway, all right.
And I'm just gonna keep going

1353
01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:32,680
from this clip, so.
OK.

1354
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:35,120
Those are the all.
The points of the eyewitness

1355
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:40,480
accounts and you know, like
maybe they they maybe they were

1356
01:19:40,480 --> 01:19:43,560
not 100% factually accurate on
all the minutiae, but that does

1357
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:46,360
not invalidate the main data.
OK.

1358
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:49,080
OK, no, if that's where you were
going, cool.

1359
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:51,120
I'm I'm totally fine with that.
OK.

1360
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:57,200
OK.
So, so again, all of that is

1361
01:19:57,200 --> 01:20:01,600
easily harmonized with John
Taylor didn't kill Joseph and

1362
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:05,560
Hiram.
OK, that's a bit of a leap, but

1363
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:07,440
OK.
How is that a leap?

1364
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:09,240
Like so.
So the eyewitness accounts.

1365
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:13,480
OK, so the let me go through
what you said was the main

1366
01:20:13,480 --> 01:20:15,640
points.
There was a mob there.

1367
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:20,040
There were men that came up the
stairs.

1368
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:27,960
Hiram was killed first.
Joseph was shot in the room and

1369
01:20:27,960 --> 01:20:32,520
outside of the room.
And what was the other one?

1370
01:20:32,520 --> 01:20:34,480
You said that John was also shot
inside the room.

1371
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:38,920
OK.
That is for me can mean there's

1372
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:43,600
now 1000 million possibilities
if that's your main what you

1373
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:46,080
have to go on.
So yes, one of those is exactly

1374
01:20:46,080 --> 01:20:49,880
the way they described it is
that John has nothing give you.

1375
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:52,840
There are lots of possibilities.
There, there's lots of

1376
01:20:52,840 --> 01:20:57,240
possibilities, but the
eyewitness accounts are just as

1377
01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:04,480
possible as your theory.
Wait, as stated, no impulse.

1378
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:06,640
So we just established that.
The minutiae.

1379
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,120
Let's throw out the minutiae.
Let's not get hung up on the

1380
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:10,400
minutiae of the eyewitness
account.

1381
01:21:10,560 --> 01:21:12,240
It's getting dark in here.
Let me turn on my light.

1382
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:17,560
But yeah, so I thought we had
just established that the

1383
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:21,040
eyewitness accounts are not
necessarily the value.

1384
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:22,880
There is not the minutiae, the
fine.

1385
01:21:22,880 --> 01:21:25,120
Details the value of the
eyewitness accounts are the

1386
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:25,880
main.
Events.

1387
01:21:26,440 --> 01:21:31,560
That the things that they got
right allowed them to be good,

1388
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:33,720
good guys not doing what I
suggested.

1389
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,840
Yeah, OK.
OK, so they're equally possible.

1390
01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:41,760
We weren't there.
So now let's take a step back

1391
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:44,520
and look at.
Based on the island accounts,

1392
01:21:44,520 --> 01:21:45,000
right?
Yeah.

1393
01:21:45,000 --> 01:21:50,120
OK, I get where you're wrong.
Dude, that was a major

1394
01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:53,800
concession.
That was a major concession.

1395
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:56,760
But he couldn't.
He couldn't wriggle out of it.

1396
01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:02,200
So I called him on the carpet
cause like his whole his whole

1397
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:07,200
claim crumbles.
If he can't disprove the

1398
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:10,760
credibility of the eyewitness
accounts, his whole narrative

1399
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:14,920
doesn't hold up until he can
shoot down the credibility of

1400
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:18,760
the eyewitness accounts.
Which again you know he says he

1401
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:20,720
he's not ready to talk about
motive.

1402
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:26,960
But if if you can't make this
argument that the eyewitness

1403
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:33,600
statements were were were lies,
what do you what do you do

1404
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:36,640
right.
Because if if you're looking at

1405
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:40,760
this in that direction you have
to have motive, right.

1406
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:46,320
And there's nothing we find in
journal entries anything else

1407
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:50,640
that would indicate that John
Taylor and Willard Richards had

1408
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:57,000
anything but utter fidelity and
loyalty to Joseph Smith.

1409
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:02,800
A. 100, Yep.
All right, So, so this next

1410
01:23:02,800 --> 01:23:05,280
little clip, so you know, I've
been skipping around you.

1411
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:08,760
Everybody is welcome to watch
this start to finish.

1412
01:23:08,840 --> 01:23:10,880
Uncut.
I'm just taking some highlights

1413
01:23:10,880 --> 01:23:14,040
here to to analyze, but it's all
available.

1414
01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:15,600
The Uncut version is on my
channel.

1415
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:17,040
It's the gospel.
Unscripted.

1416
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:19,480
On YouTube, You could.
I'll throw a link, I'll throw,

1417
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:22,760
I'll throw a link in the in the
episode notes and people can go

1418
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:23,920
right to it.
Yep.

1419
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:27,440
OK, so at the in this next clip,
So we had been talking.

1420
01:23:27,440 --> 01:23:31,320
So Griffin had brought up the
two Mormons that testified at

1421
01:23:31,320 --> 01:23:34,920
the trial, and he was making a
big deal out of the fact that

1422
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:38,680
the mob didn't attack them and
basically saying that, Well,

1423
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:42,320
yeah, so Jon Taylor was a wuss
for not showing up at the trial.

1424
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:46,920
And so I explored the actual
details that are documented very

1425
01:23:46,920 --> 01:23:51,520
thoroughly about that the trial
and proved that the two Mormons

1426
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:55,000
that testified at the trial
actually ended up working out in

1427
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:59,040
favor of the defense.
In other words, the the mob, the

1428
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:02,920
mobsters that were on trial for
the murder of Joseph and Hiram

1429
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:07,600
were acquitted and and so like
and the the testimony that these

1430
01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:12,560
two Mormons gave at that trial
helped them get acquitted, you

1431
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:15,960
know, let go instead of instead
of found guilty.

1432
01:24:16,160 --> 01:24:18,280
So let's let's listen to this
next.

1433
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:21,400
Effect of Eliza Graham's
testimony was.

1434
01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,000
Actor.
And that's what ruined her

1435
01:24:24,000 --> 01:24:25,400
testimony.
OK.

1436
01:24:25,720 --> 01:24:29,800
So again, the net effect of
Eliza Graham's testimony was

1437
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:31,960
actually in favor of the
defense.

1438
01:24:33,040 --> 01:24:34,240
Yeah, it didn't.
Yeah, exactly.

1439
01:24:34,240 --> 01:24:38,600
OK, so that's important context
because if their testimony had

1440
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:43,120
not strengthened the defense and
in fact had, you know, not

1441
01:24:43,120 --> 01:24:45,680
resulted in an acquittal and you
know, if if the mob members have

1442
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:49,000
been convicted as a result of
that testimony, do you think

1443
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:53,000
it's very plausible that the mob
would have taken violent action

1444
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:55,200
against them individually and as
the church, as a body?

1445
01:24:55,480 --> 01:24:57,680
Yes, I do think that's possible.
Absolutely.

1446
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:00,440
OK.
Well that that's that's the

1447
01:25:00,440 --> 01:25:03,720
point is that it was an
extremely hostile environment.

1448
01:25:04,080 --> 01:25:07,240
Want more from the Mormon
Renegade podcast?

1449
01:25:07,560 --> 01:25:11,200
Head over to the Mormon Renegade
Rumble page to see all the

1450
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:15,000
videos from the podcast and the
Fundamental News Program for

1451
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:17,440
free.
Still not enough?

1452
01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:22,000
Then join the Mormon Renegade
Locals page by clicking the red

1453
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:25,240
join button.
And for $5 a month you can have

1454
01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:30,120
access to podcast transcripts,
renegade exclusives, as well as

1455
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:33,640
weekly live stream show with the
host Dave Sanders.

1456
01:25:34,120 --> 01:25:37,360
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today, OK?

1457
01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:42,440
Did you catch that?
Another massive concession

1458
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:48,040
'cause his whole, he's trying to
build the case that John Taylor

1459
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:51,880
is revealing guilt.
You know, he's he's revealing

1460
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:55,120
his culpability by not
testifying at the trial.

1461
01:25:56,720 --> 01:25:59,000
That's like that that that was
his point that he's trying to

1462
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:03,720
make is, you know, John Taylor
avoided the trial and yet he

1463
01:26:03,720 --> 01:26:07,800
just conceded this massive point
that, yeah, it was a hostile

1464
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:10,960
environment.
And so, in other words, he's

1465
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:16,120
admitting to me on camera that
he lied in his documentary

1466
01:26:16,280 --> 01:26:19,880
'cause he completely distorted
and misrepresented those facts.

1467
01:26:20,280 --> 01:26:24,800
Look, it's so hard for us to put
ourselves in the situation of

1468
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:28,000
John Taylor or any of those
early Saints back in those days,

1469
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:29,800
right?
Because we don't live with

1470
01:26:29,800 --> 01:26:34,280
frontier justice, OK?
So this idea that you would go

1471
01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:38,120
to court and not feel safe to a
lot of us is really, really

1472
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:41,960
foreign.
OK, Joseph in the Mormons had

1473
01:26:41,960 --> 01:26:47,120
stacked against them, not just
mobsters and vigilantes, but the

1474
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:49,440
backing of certain state
governments.

1475
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:52,480
I think you can even make a case
maybe for the federal government

1476
01:26:52,480 --> 01:26:56,200
on some level, just because
Joseph was threatening to upend

1477
01:26:56,680 --> 01:27:00,320
a lot of the political dealings
of the day by his candidacy for

1478
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:05,040
president.
And so if you've seen them, just

1479
01:27:05,040 --> 01:27:10,320
take out the guy, right?
The the the two guys that were

1480
01:27:11,320 --> 01:27:15,760
at that point most important to
this movement, you think they're

1481
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,880
going to think twice about
killing John Taylor or Willard

1482
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:20,160
Richards?
No.

1483
01:27:20,480 --> 01:27:22,200
No.
And and Brigham Young

1484
01:27:22,200 --> 01:27:26,440
understands, we got to get out
of Dodge and let's not make life

1485
01:27:26,440 --> 01:27:28,840
harder for ourselves until we
get out of Dodge.

1486
01:27:29,320 --> 01:27:32,720
And Griffin just seems to blow
right past that point until you

1487
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:35,440
call him on the carpet on it.
He is he.

1488
01:27:35,440 --> 01:27:38,280
He just ignores it if.
You know I the.

1489
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:43,440
Best thing I can come up with on
this part is it's just a blatant

1490
01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:47,000
conflation of history with
presentism, right?

1491
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:49,280
I'm not thinking this through
really.

1492
01:27:49,280 --> 01:27:51,760
Well, start to finish like,
well, is it really?

1493
01:27:52,160 --> 01:27:56,840
Is it really a stretch to say,
gosh, it's it's really damning

1494
01:27:57,280 --> 01:28:01,920
for John Taylor not to be there?
If anything, if anything, if you

1495
01:28:01,920 --> 01:28:06,320
were guilty and you were John
Taylor and and you had killed

1496
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:10,560
Joseph Smith and Hiram Smith,
you would want to be there to

1497
01:28:10,560 --> 01:28:13,480
point the finger at the mob
because that gets you off the

1498
01:28:13,480 --> 01:28:16,120
hook, right?
If John Taylor was not the one

1499
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:18,200
on trial for the murders.
Right.

1500
01:28:18,480 --> 01:28:21,600
Right.
So John Taylor's testimony, if

1501
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:25,440
he was guilty, could have sealed
it up to make sure that somebody

1502
01:28:25,440 --> 01:28:27,320
else took the fall.
Right.

1503
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:31,200
And he stays away.
Well, why would he do that?

1504
01:28:31,320 --> 01:28:35,200
There's only one reasonable and
plausible explanation in

1505
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:39,760
frontier America in that time,
and that is they just got rid of

1506
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:42,440
Joseph and Hiram.
They won't think twice about

1507
01:28:42,440 --> 01:28:45,360
getting rid of us.
Yeah, and that's that.

1508
01:28:45,360 --> 01:28:49,080
So this next clip I I basically
wrap up that point, 'cause

1509
01:28:49,320 --> 01:28:52,200
there's a guy this you can just
Google it.

1510
01:28:52,200 --> 01:28:56,440
Famous trials.
He's an attorney and he he looks

1511
01:28:56,440 --> 01:28:58,760
at famous.
He's not even Mormon or he has

1512
01:28:58,760 --> 01:29:01,600
no connection to the church or
the restoration or nothing.

1513
01:29:02,160 --> 01:29:06,000
But he was just looking at
really significant cases in U.S.

1514
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:11,800
History and he he looked at this
trial for the of the mob members

1515
01:29:11,800 --> 01:29:14,280
for the murder of Joseph and
Hiram and his conclusion was

1516
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:17,400
this was a kangaroo Court
Justice was never going to be

1517
01:29:17,400 --> 01:29:21,440
served and and so basically it
exonerates John Taylor's

1518
01:29:21,440 --> 01:29:25,120
personal decision to not testify
and and and John Taylor also

1519
01:29:25,120 --> 01:29:28,520
counseled to other church
members to not attend and and at

1520
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:32,520
the the trial and to testify
because doing so would

1521
01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:36,440
accomplish nothing.
They were gonna get acquitted

1522
01:29:36,440 --> 01:29:40,000
according to this non member
attorney analyzing this trial

1523
01:29:40,640 --> 01:29:44,240
they the the Bob members were
gonna get acquitted regardless

1524
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:47,560
of whatever testimony or
evidence was presented and so

1525
01:29:47,560 --> 01:29:51,960
they had nothing to gain and
everything to lose 'cause they

1526
01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:54,360
would be personally putting
themselves and the whole church

1527
01:29:54,360 --> 01:29:58,040
as a body at risk and and you
know I won't play it but

1528
01:29:58,040 --> 01:30:01,440
Justin's Griffin's response was
so whatever.

1529
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:04,000
OK cool.
I mean, you make great points.

1530
01:30:04,840 --> 01:30:09,880
So again, it's a a concession.
But anyway, it's it's it's very

1531
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:12,320
revealing.
So the the next, the last couple

1532
01:30:12,320 --> 01:30:15,640
of clips I'm gonna pull from
this, oh, you know, I'm gonna

1533
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:17,800
skip this one.
He just basically goes into

1534
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:21,320
dodging.
Oh, you know what?

1535
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:23,600
This is actually kind of funny
and it's only gonna be a minute

1536
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:24,920
long, so I'm gonna play it
anyway.

1537
01:30:25,080 --> 01:30:29,280
OK.
What the content?

1538
01:30:29,280 --> 01:30:30,920
Of that section, I know where
you're going.

1539
01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:36,560
And I don't know how this, if
you're working towards motive

1540
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:37,640
again.
I I can't.

1541
01:30:37,640 --> 01:30:41,320
I'm not going to discuss motive.
I thought we were going to

1542
01:30:41,320 --> 01:30:43,680
discuss what happened in those
two to three minutes in

1543
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:45,480
evidence.
So if you want to do motive, we

1544
01:30:45,480 --> 01:30:47,240
can do that.
You know what I'm not trying to

1545
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:48,600
deny, I'm not trying to hide
anything.

1546
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:50,480
But that's all.
That's another conversation.

1547
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:54,040
The point of this movie was it
was scientific evidence.

1548
01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:56,960
What does the evidence say?
Wasn't all the surrounding.

1549
01:30:56,960 --> 01:30:58,800
I am not an expert in the
surrounding.

1550
01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:02,720
OK, well, so but.
But you're not an expert in the

1551
01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:05,680
ballistic forensics either.
No, I am not.

1552
01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:08,080
What I'm an expert in is in
those two to three minutes.

1553
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:15,360
Whoa, that's a big claim.
Yeah, and and I just.

1554
01:31:15,480 --> 01:31:17,520
I just.
Dodging around stuff, man.

1555
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:21,160
He was dancing.
And The funny thing is I again,

1556
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:25,000
just so that everybody fully
understands, I emailed him all

1557
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:28,160
of these questions, three of
which were very centered on

1558
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:30,840
motive days in advance of this
conversation.

1559
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:36,520
So he's kind of gaslighting in
real time here saying that, you

1560
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:38,560
know I thought we were just
going to discuss the evidence

1561
01:31:38,560 --> 01:31:43,200
and blah blah blah cause anyway.
But I I just loved.

1562
01:31:43,480 --> 01:31:46,560
I'm not like an expert on motive
or the context or the history.

1563
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:49,880
Yeah, well you're not an expert
on the Ballistics evidence

1564
01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:51,720
either.
So what are you?

1565
01:31:52,400 --> 01:31:54,800
So if you're not an expert on
Ballistics, if you're not an

1566
01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:57,560
expert on or forensics, and if
you're not an expert on the

1567
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:02,040
history, what the bleep business
do you have making a documentary

1568
01:32:02,040 --> 01:32:05,240
about it?
Well, and he says he's an expert

1569
01:32:05,240 --> 01:32:07,680
on that.
Two or three minutes inside the

1570
01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:13,440
the, the, the room that Joseph
and Hiram were were shot in.

1571
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:16,960
OK, well, let's go with that.
But you still have to cover

1572
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:21,080
either motive, Ballistics or any
number of things or at least

1573
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:24,720
provide expert witness to that,
right.

1574
01:32:24,720 --> 01:32:27,000
I do believe in in expert
witness.

1575
01:32:27,360 --> 01:32:29,800
But if I I.
Remember and correct me and and

1576
01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:32,120
correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm sure you've watched it a a

1577
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:38,840
few more times than I have he he
doesn't really provide much

1578
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:42,320
expert opinion.
In his in his film Who Killed

1579
01:32:42,320 --> 01:32:43,120
Joseph Smith?
Part one.

1580
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:45,680
I've only actually ever watched
it twice.

1581
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:49,040
The first time I watched it as
just I'm watching this cause

1582
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:51,280
Kevin and Beverly told me about
it.

1583
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:53,960
And so I was just like, I gotta
see what this is all about.

1584
01:32:54,480 --> 01:32:57,360
The second time I ever watched
it, I was taking notes, marking

1585
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:01,960
time stamps and stuff like that.
And because I was preparing for

1586
01:33:01,960 --> 01:33:03,440
this conversation with Justin
Griffin.

1587
01:33:03,440 --> 01:33:05,640
But but so I I've only seen it
twice.

1588
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,080
But I was paying very close
attention.

1589
01:33:08,320 --> 01:33:11,680
But yeah, you're right.
He does not present expert

1590
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:15,480
witnesses or testimony and so
it's just really the the

1591
01:33:15,480 --> 01:33:22,800
audience if you don't understand
like the the, you know standards

1592
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:26,360
of credibility and like how to
make judgments of who to trust

1593
01:33:26,360 --> 01:33:30,000
and versus who's not, you know
credible and worthy of trust not

1594
01:33:30,000 --> 01:33:34,040
a reliable witness that's that's
something that he preys upon.

1595
01:33:34,600 --> 01:33:40,560
You know, most people are not
very, you know, experienced in

1596
01:33:41,480 --> 01:33:44,400
criminal trial proceedings and
and not that I have experience

1597
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:46,760
with criminal trials, but but,
you know, my brother's an

1598
01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:49,600
attorney.
I I have access to people and I

1599
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:52,560
I have, it's something I have
studied a bit.

1600
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:54,880
And so it's I'm not, I'm not
claiming to be an expert on

1601
01:33:54,880 --> 01:33:57,040
anything.
I just claim to know a hell of a

1602
01:33:57,040 --> 01:33:59,680
lot more about Ballistics and
forensics than Justin Griffin

1603
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:04,640
and history because I do.
And and really he is a he's

1604
01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:07,400
acknowledging this like he's
actually conceding all of these

1605
01:34:07,440 --> 01:34:09,280
points.
So let's take this next little

1606
01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:14,360
bit 'cause this is really key,
This is really the linchpin of

1607
01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:16,400
this whole conversation.
Let's let's check it out.

1608
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:21,040
We've already concluded that the
physical forensic evidence is

1609
01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:24,880
not conclusive.
Yeah, yeah.

1610
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:28,120
Great.
And you can't really do forensic

1611
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:33,920
evidence on 109 year old crime
scene K So him conceding that it

1612
01:34:35,720 --> 01:34:43,600
it it just again exposes that
he's making this crap up.

1613
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:46,960
He's pulling it right out of not
the history.

1614
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:50,160
It's not credible.
There's there's just not

1615
01:34:50,160 --> 01:34:54,880
sufficient evidence remaining on
this hundred plus year old crime

1616
01:34:54,880 --> 01:34:59,440
scene to come to a definitive
conclusion on what did or didn't

1617
01:34:59,440 --> 01:35:02,680
happen.
And so he's admitting that he's

1618
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:06,360
agreeing that, OK, this is the
last clip from this

1619
01:35:07,000 --> 01:35:08,520
conversation.
Here we go.

1620
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:12,360
Only shaping different theories
as I went that yeah, absolutely.

1621
01:35:12,920 --> 01:35:15,560
But I mean, but we've we've,
we've you've agreed with me on a

1622
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:19,720
few points throughout the course
of it that that you have, that

1623
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:23,280
you've acknowledged.
Yeah, like on the trial, John

1624
01:35:23,280 --> 01:35:25,800
Taylor, Why he was afraid.
OK, OK.

1625
01:35:25,960 --> 01:35:29,000
Yeah, yeah.
Nevertheless, you're not

1626
01:35:29,000 --> 01:35:30,680
questioning your narrative.
You're not questioning your

1627
01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:32,680
conclusions.
Well, I was hoping you would

1628
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:34,800
bring something new.
It's something I hadn't thought

1629
01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:37,400
about on an angle or piece of
evidence and I don't think that,

1630
01:35:37,440 --> 01:35:39,360
I don't think that's what you
were trying to do in this

1631
01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:41,120
conversation.
But but I.

1632
01:35:41,160 --> 01:35:46,760
Mean the my point, the my intent
with this conversation was #1 to

1633
01:35:46,760 --> 01:35:50,840
hopefully help you understand
that you don't know what you

1634
01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:52,560
don't know about like
Ballistics.

1635
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:57,120
And that's fine.
But the the the, the evidence

1636
01:35:57,120 --> 01:36:02,040
that you're presenting in the
film is actually not conclusive

1637
01:36:02,040 --> 01:36:04,880
at all and I think that you've
acknowledged that throughout the

1638
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:08,080
course of this conversation.
The other thing is we're not

1639
01:36:08,080 --> 01:36:11,480
going to find the truth from
looking at forensic evidence

1640
01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:14,280
only.
And if if, I mean you've you've

1641
01:36:14,280 --> 01:36:17,400
been pretty consistent saying
let's not talk about motive but

1642
01:36:17,400 --> 01:36:20,520
we have to look at things
holistically, You have to look.

1643
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:23,640
No, you don't.
Not if you're a forensic

1644
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:24,920
detective.
You don't.

1645
01:36:25,000 --> 01:36:27,960
You just look at the evidence.
You look at the evidence.

1646
01:36:27,960 --> 01:36:29,880
You don't try to determine
motive.

1647
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:30,560
You don't.
There's.

1648
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:34,680
Not enough evidence left.
These men were dead and buried

1649
01:36:34,680 --> 01:36:37,080
hundreds of years or over 100
years ago, right?

1650
01:36:37,120 --> 01:36:38,400
All of them.
Yeah.

1651
01:36:39,360 --> 01:36:42,800
The the forensic evidence alone
is not conclusive, is my point

1652
01:36:43,160 --> 01:36:46,600
and to present.
It as such is not supported.

1653
01:36:47,400 --> 01:36:53,000
So he just conceded again that
the evidence, the forensic

1654
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:57,440
evidence, is insufficient to
come to a definitive conclusion

1655
01:36:58,400 --> 01:37:02,000
and he agreed.
Then why did you put out a

1656
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:07,040
documentary taking a very
authoritative, definitive

1657
01:37:07,040 --> 01:37:13,480
position and presenting it as
the only possible scenario?

1658
01:37:14,040 --> 01:37:17,880
You know, the other thing he
tried to do there that I found

1659
01:37:17,880 --> 01:37:21,480
really disingenuous is when he
tried to turn the tables and

1660
01:37:21,480 --> 01:37:23,840
said, well, I thought you were
coming with new evidence.

1661
01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:27,520
No, no, no, it's not on you to
present new evidence.

1662
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:31,280
He's the one right?
If we want to approach this

1663
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:35,120
thing very scientifically,
anytime you challenge a current

1664
01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:37,920
narrative, right, something
that's been accepted.

1665
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:40,320
For a while.
It's incumbent upon you.

1666
01:37:40,760 --> 01:37:45,160
To provide proof.
That absolutely discredits the

1667
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:48,440
old narrative, yeah, the.
Burden of proof is on him, not

1668
01:37:48,440 --> 01:37:49,280
me, you know.
Yeah, the.

1669
01:37:49,280 --> 01:37:53,200
Burden of proof is on him.
You are arguing for the accepted

1670
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:56,560
narrative, and he needs to be
able to disprove that.

1671
01:37:56,720 --> 01:38:01,920
Which to this point, he has done
a woeful job, a laughable job,

1672
01:38:02,120 --> 01:38:06,160
and until he can get to that
point of presenting evidence

1673
01:38:06,360 --> 01:38:10,440
that would be enough to overturn
the the historically held

1674
01:38:10,440 --> 01:38:13,040
narrative, That narrative has to
stand.

1675
01:38:13,320 --> 01:38:15,280
That's the hierarchy of
evidence.

1676
01:38:15,600 --> 01:38:17,520
That's actually scientific
method.

1677
01:38:17,760 --> 01:38:20,840
And until that gets done, dude's
pissing in the wind.

1678
01:38:23,520 --> 01:38:25,000
Yep.
Yep.

1679
01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:31,840
If only he knew what he does.
If only he knew what he didn't

1680
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:34,600
know, then it would make this
whole process a little bit

1681
01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:36,840
easier.
But I I actually had a question

1682
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:39,680
if he may actually know and he's
just.

1683
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:43,720
He's He's dancing.
Being deceptive.

1684
01:38:44,080 --> 01:38:48,880
Look the fact that he tried to
turn it around on you that's you

1685
01:38:48,880 --> 01:38:56,160
know and and you know he he is
presenting this as in his excuse

1686
01:38:56,160 --> 01:39:01,920
me, that his narrative is the
accepted one and it's just not

1687
01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:07,280
it's it's full of of holes.
I mean, to be right, honest.

1688
01:39:07,280 --> 01:39:12,160
I mean it's it's laughable and
that's what I keep coming back

1689
01:39:12,160 --> 01:39:15,720
to when I watch the film, when I
listen to him talk about this,

1690
01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:20,440
it's laughable.
And or in the the the thing

1691
01:39:20,440 --> 01:39:25,360
that's most disconcerting is the
fact that he's willing to

1692
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:30,560
continue to ride this out.
Totally.

1693
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:34,480
So there's a couple of comments
I I was gonna just really

1694
01:39:34,480 --> 01:39:36,280
quickly touch on, but maybe it's
on this one.

1695
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:40,320
So so that was round one.
You know it was getting late.

1696
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:42,240
We've been going for over 2
hours.

1697
01:39:42,240 --> 01:39:46,840
So and like I was trying to kind
of bring things around and and

1698
01:39:46,840 --> 01:39:49,440
like put the screws in and kind
of just try to button 'cause he

1699
01:39:49,440 --> 01:39:54,960
made several, like at least four
massive concessions throughout

1700
01:39:54,960 --> 01:39:58,080
the course of that conversation
that just absolutely broke down.

1701
01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:00,640
And it was just blowing my mind
like, OK, you're making

1702
01:40:00,640 --> 01:40:04,200
concession after concession on
these key points that that that

1703
01:40:04,200 --> 01:40:07,120
completely discredit your
narrative, but you're not

1704
01:40:07,120 --> 01:40:08,600
questioning it.
You're just kind of doubling

1705
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:12,040
down and and you can't just
repeat something and that makes

1706
01:40:12,040 --> 01:40:13,960
it true.
That's not proving anything.

1707
01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:17,520
And but anyway, at the end of
this conversation, I said, well,

1708
01:40:18,400 --> 01:40:21,400
motive.
He did finally say that he was

1709
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:22,680
willing to have a conversation
on that.

1710
01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:24,960
And and so he said, you know
what?

1711
01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:28,200
Maybe we can do this again.
And he ended up challenging me

1712
01:40:28,200 --> 01:40:30,560
parting parting challenge.
Why don't you come up with your

1713
01:40:30,560 --> 01:40:35,920
own theory.
And and so I spent the next

1714
01:40:35,920 --> 01:40:40,400
couple of weeks studying,
reading the eyewit, all the

1715
01:40:40,440 --> 01:40:43,040
eyewitness accounts like looking
at all the evidence that I could

1716
01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:47,400
get my hands on that was
available online and and praying

1717
01:40:47,480 --> 01:40:51,120
and just asking Heavenly Father
to open up my mind of what is

1718
01:40:51,120 --> 01:40:54,760
the you know most likely.
I mean not not not like, not

1719
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:58,280
like, you know, I I didn't see a
vision of what happened or

1720
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:01,120
anything, but I was just kind of
like trying to envision,

1721
01:41:01,920 --> 01:41:04,400
envision I should say is the
word I'm using.

1722
01:41:04,920 --> 01:41:09,720
Like how could all of these
facts come together into a

1723
01:41:09,720 --> 01:41:14,320
cohesive story and and how could
I present that in a very

1724
01:41:14,320 --> 01:41:18,600
credible way.
So this is round two and the 1st

1725
01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:22,920
45 minutes of this second round,
he's asking me all sorts of

1726
01:41:22,920 --> 01:41:25,080
questions and to be honest, I
think he's trying to poison the

1727
01:41:25,080 --> 01:41:27,240
well a little bit.
Like if he could discredit me,

1728
01:41:27,560 --> 01:41:30,520
you know, if I if he could get
me to say something that would

1729
01:41:30,520 --> 01:41:34,960
discredit people listening or
watching that you know, that

1730
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:39,680
would discredit my complaints
against him and his theories.

1731
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:45,200
And so like he asked me all
sorts of questions that that I

1732
01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:51,480
ended up answering if if people
are curious, like, you know, he

1733
01:41:51,480 --> 01:41:54,480
asked me to elaborate on my
perspective, the LDS church, if

1734
01:41:54,480 --> 01:41:57,160
the church goes along with
Babylon, if I'm active or

1735
01:41:57,160 --> 01:42:00,800
sustained the leadership.
He asks me if the spirit tells

1736
01:42:00,800 --> 01:42:02,640
you something that's
contradictory to the church or

1737
01:42:02,640 --> 01:42:04,800
president Nelson says which
would you choose to do?

1738
01:42:05,560 --> 01:42:07,560
He Griffin asked me if the
president of the church is

1739
01:42:07,560 --> 01:42:09,760
infallible.
I mean he he asked me all of

1740
01:42:09,760 --> 01:42:12,280
these questions.
He asked me about my stance on

1741
01:42:12,280 --> 01:42:15,640
polygamy and Adam God doctrine,
on blood atonement, on Brigham

1742
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:18,800
Young and and various other
things, black and the priesthood

1743
01:42:18,800 --> 01:42:21,120
sorts of things.
And so he asked me all these

1744
01:42:21,120 --> 01:42:25,600
questions, I think trying to to
trap me or poison the wells to

1745
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:28,880
to destroy my credibility with
the a mainstream LDS audience.

1746
01:42:29,480 --> 01:42:33,680
And you know, I actually haven't
listened back through to my

1747
01:42:33,680 --> 01:42:37,560
answers but if anybody's
curious, you know, I reserve the

1748
01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:40,920
right to be to correct if I said
anything wrong or or if I've

1749
01:42:41,720 --> 01:42:43,120
changed my perspective on any of
them.

1750
01:42:43,120 --> 01:42:44,880
But that that's that's
available.

1751
01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:53,400
At the 45 minute mark I present
my my theory, which, you know

1752
01:42:53,720 --> 01:42:57,320
Full disclosure is simply the
eyewitness accounts theory.

1753
01:42:57,560 --> 01:43:01,560
But I present it in such a way
with supporting documentation,

1754
01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:05,240
using modern forensics as
evidence and standards and and

1755
01:43:05,240 --> 01:43:06,360
guidance.
Right.

1756
01:43:08,200 --> 01:43:13,800
But let me let me ask you this,
you in, in that first debate you

1757
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:18,120
had with him, you said that you
sent him all of the questions

1758
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:21,160
that you were gonna ask him, all
the stuff that you wanted to go

1759
01:43:21,160 --> 01:43:24,000
over.
Did he reciprocate and and send

1760
01:43:24,000 --> 01:43:25,560
these to you before you jumped
on?

1761
01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:28,240
Oh no.
Just curious.

1762
01:43:28,640 --> 01:43:30,680
No, just curious.
OK.

1763
01:43:30,760 --> 01:43:32,680
I was just curious.
No.

1764
01:43:32,680 --> 01:43:35,000
So these were all just
completely extemporaneous off

1765
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:37,200
the cuff.
OK, all right.

1766
01:43:37,240 --> 01:43:38,960
And.
And so, so yeah, this is the

1767
01:43:38,960 --> 01:43:42,680
uncut full footage of round two.
It's over 2 and almost 2 1/2

1768
01:43:42,680 --> 01:43:46,400
hours long.
I'd uploaded a separate video of

1769
01:43:46,400 --> 01:43:50,320
just me presenting my theory
that people wouldn't have taken

1770
01:43:50,360 --> 01:43:52,560
5.
Oops, I have caffeine pills

1771
01:43:52,560 --> 01:43:55,080
every day, but like everyone
around me, I was consuming the

1772
01:43:55,080 --> 01:43:58,480
same amount.
But OK, so this is where I

1773
01:43:58,480 --> 01:44:03,040
present my rational theory.
And as you can see, I got a lot

1774
01:44:03,040 --> 01:44:04,640
of engagement.
Lots of comments.

1775
01:44:05,240 --> 01:44:07,120
There was one comment I wanted
to bring out.

1776
01:44:07,280 --> 01:44:12,080
Oh, here it was.
Dude, check this out at Neil

1777
01:44:12,200 --> 01:44:14,600
Jones.
I don't know this person, but he

1778
01:44:14,600 --> 01:44:17,640
says I'm a dentist who also got
a masters in forensics.

1779
01:44:17,640 --> 01:44:21,240
The maxilla or upper jaw is less
dense than the mandible or lower

1780
01:44:21,240 --> 01:44:24,760
jaw, but it is still bone and
will surely change the path of a

1781
01:44:24,760 --> 01:44:27,280
projectile.
All the historical evidence must

1782
01:44:27,280 --> 01:44:29,560
be considered before one tries
to credibly determine what

1783
01:44:29,560 --> 01:44:30,920
happened in those two to three
minutes.

1784
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:37,240
So I don't know, Dave, it's so
it's about 25 minutes or so long

1785
01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:41,640
of me presenting my theory.
Should we just direct the

1786
01:44:41,640 --> 01:44:45,360
audience listeners to go to the
YouTube channel and watch it

1787
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:48,320
there, or should we just play it
out?

1788
01:44:49,400 --> 01:44:51,440
That's that's your call.
Do you think you could give a

1789
01:44:51,440 --> 01:44:56,360
summarized version of what you
thought happened, or do you feel

1790
01:44:56,360 --> 01:44:58,480
like it's better to just listen
to the whole thing?

1791
01:44:59,040 --> 01:45:01,760
I do think it's better to listen
to the whole cause, 'cause I I

1792
01:45:01,760 --> 01:45:05,360
have to frame certain and I have
to lay a foundation before I

1793
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:08,480
just start walking you through
the step by step, blow by blow

1794
01:45:08,480 --> 01:45:10,200
account of of what I think
happened.

1795
01:45:10,920 --> 01:45:13,240
Are you good on time?
I'm good on time.

1796
01:45:13,240 --> 01:45:15,400
Yeah, it's up to you.
Let's let's go ahead and just

1797
01:45:15,400 --> 01:45:20,280
play it out and if we feel like
we need to stop anywhere to to

1798
01:45:20,480 --> 01:45:23,000
to ask a question to make sure
we're understanding, I'll do

1799
01:45:23,000 --> 01:45:24,200
that.
Let's do it.

1800
01:45:24,200 --> 01:45:24,920
OK.
All right.

1801
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:26,560
Here we go.
I'm going to go through.

1802
01:45:26,640 --> 01:45:32,960
And start off with, you know,
just dive right in.

1803
01:45:32,960 --> 01:45:36,160
So in Carthage, so we know that
the door hinges are on the right

1804
01:45:36,160 --> 01:45:38,400
side of the door.
If you're viewing from inside

1805
01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:41,160
the room and there's evidence
that a shot was fired through

1806
01:45:41,160 --> 01:45:45,520
the latch and lock by the mob
attempting to enter the room, we

1807
01:45:45,520 --> 01:45:48,520
know that Hiram could have
sprung backward two or three

1808
01:45:48,520 --> 01:45:51,480
steps as reaction to that shot.
As the eyewitness accounts like

1809
01:45:51,480 --> 01:45:55,720
John Taylor's account states
That or you know if they shot

1810
01:45:55,720 --> 01:45:58,480
through the lock and latch and
then the mob members just pushed

1811
01:45:58,480 --> 01:46:01,160
through the door it, you know it
could have pushed him back two

1812
01:46:01,160 --> 01:46:03,840
or three steps, which is about
10 feet if you're a man my size.

1813
01:46:04,320 --> 01:46:09,920
So anyone else that was to
Hiram's right wouldn't have been

1814
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:12,840
knocked back as far if that.
If Hiram was knocked back and

1815
01:46:12,840 --> 01:46:16,680
didn't just jump back a couple
of steps because you're closer

1816
01:46:16,680 --> 01:46:19,200
to the hinges, there wouldn't be
as much mass displacement.

1817
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:22,760
So it it to me makes complete
sense that Hiram was pushed much

1818
01:46:22,760 --> 01:46:25,440
further in, back into the room,
away from the door and that

1819
01:46:25,440 --> 01:46:27,840
position.
I mean that we we know that room

1820
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:31,240
is not very big.
So that position 10 feet back

1821
01:46:31,240 --> 01:46:34,480
from the door would put Hiram's
back just a few feet away from

1822
01:46:34,480 --> 01:46:37,520
the window, making it a target
to anyone outside the jail.

1823
01:46:38,720 --> 01:46:41,680
I believe it's most likely that
the first bullet that struck his

1824
01:46:41,680 --> 01:46:45,400
body was the one in his back,
which would not have to cause

1825
01:46:45,400 --> 01:46:49,280
very much external bleeding,
'cause there's no major blood

1826
01:46:49,280 --> 01:46:50,680
vessels in that area of the
body.

1827
01:46:50,680 --> 01:46:53,960
And and since we know it didn't
exit the front of his body, we

1828
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:58,560
can be fairly confident based on
the evidence, that regardless of

1829
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:00,520
the cause, the bullet that
struck Hiram's back had low

1830
01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:03,720
terminal ballistic energy.
If it had higher terminal

1831
01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:06,520
ballistic energy, we would
expect it to have exited and had

1832
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:09,800
a, you know, an exit wound.
So we don't know the caliber of

1833
01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:11,480
that bullet that struck him in
the back.

1834
01:47:11,480 --> 01:47:13,840
We don't know the firearm that
it was shot from for sure.

1835
01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:18,120
I mean, the hole in his shirt is
.69 inches, which would be a

1836
01:47:18,120 --> 01:47:22,320
perfect match for a period
musket ball that was shot.

1837
01:47:22,320 --> 01:47:25,120
But the low terminal Ballistics
could also be explained by it

1838
01:47:25,120 --> 01:47:27,840
traveling a much further
distance, like for example, if

1839
01:47:27,840 --> 01:47:30,760
it had been fired from much
further away from the jail.

1840
01:47:31,080 --> 01:47:34,560
So like John Taylor, he never
claimed he knew the exact source

1841
01:47:34,560 --> 01:47:36,360
of the bullet that struck
Hiram's back.

1842
01:47:36,360 --> 01:47:40,080
But he conjectured in in his
account that it could have come

1843
01:47:40,080 --> 01:47:44,680
from the Carthage graze which he
estimated at 11:50 rods, which

1844
01:47:44,680 --> 01:47:49,600
is about 165 to 200 feet or
roughly 60 yards away, which is

1845
01:47:49,600 --> 01:47:51,480
well within the effective range
of a musket.

1846
01:47:52,840 --> 01:47:56,920
You know, rifles even of of that
period were accurate to, you

1847
01:47:56,920 --> 01:48:01,960
know, hundreds of yards, you
know, 23400 yards away a good

1848
01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:05,080
Rifleman could hit a target.
So an alternative but equally

1849
01:48:05,080 --> 01:48:08,680
plausible argument, like you
agree.

1850
01:48:08,680 --> 01:48:11,200
You said that you had agreed
with Sam Weston that he

1851
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:14,760
disproved the RLDS angles from
the Carthage conspiracy.

1852
01:48:15,680 --> 01:48:18,000
It's possible that the shot
front in the back could have

1853
01:48:18,000 --> 01:48:20,840
come from a mob member much
closer to the jail, but again,

1854
01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:23,760
it would have had to have a much
lower powder load to explain the

1855
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:26,640
low terminal Ballistics causing
it to not exit the front of his

1856
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:29,160
body.
Another possibility is if the

1857
01:48:29,160 --> 01:48:32,560
shooter was shooting from the
top of a wagon or or some from

1858
01:48:32,560 --> 01:48:35,920
some other elevated position, he
could have been much closer to

1859
01:48:35,920 --> 01:48:39,040
the jail than the 50 to 70 feet
away that Sam Weston calculated

1860
01:48:39,040 --> 01:48:41,600
was possible.
But regardless, either way,

1861
01:48:42,720 --> 01:48:45,160
Hiram would have known
immediately that his gunshot

1862
01:48:45,160 --> 01:48:48,800
wound to his back was fatal
given the internal damage he

1863
01:48:48,800 --> 01:48:51,280
could probably feel and also due
to the lack of medical

1864
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:56,360
technology back in those days.
So, so Hiram said I am a dead

1865
01:48:56,360 --> 01:48:59,600
man and and he still had a
tongue, 'cause that was.

1866
01:48:59,600 --> 01:49:01,040
The whole ball.
That had struck him.

1867
01:49:01,480 --> 01:49:06,120
So now it's what's interesting.
So my background professionally,

1868
01:49:06,120 --> 01:49:08,520
I I deal with medical code code
data.

1869
01:49:08,680 --> 01:49:13,240
I manage medical coding
databases, and I I studied quite

1870
01:49:13,240 --> 01:49:15,720
a bit about human anatomy and
and such and and so it's a

1871
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:19,560
common and widely known
phenomenon that people who get

1872
01:49:19,560 --> 01:49:22,720
shot with the firearm collapse
immediately, even if it it.

1873
01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:25,040
Which kind of is a little
counterintuitive 'cause if the

1874
01:49:25,040 --> 01:49:27,600
bullet doesn't strike a lower
extremity, why do people fall

1875
01:49:27,600 --> 01:49:31,480
down?
Well, a neurologist named Dennis

1876
01:49:31,480 --> 01:49:35,360
Tobin was asked by a journalist
investigating this phenomenon in

1877
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:38,520
2013.
And Doctor Tobin theorized that

1878
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:42,560
an area of the brain stem called
the Reticular Activating System

1879
01:49:42,560 --> 01:49:49,280
or Ras can become overloaded by
by pain impulses.

1880
01:49:49,840 --> 01:49:53,400
You know, so if if you're if you
have intensely pain, a lot of

1881
01:49:53,400 --> 01:49:57,160
pain impulses, it comes in
actually the Ras is at the base

1882
01:49:57,160 --> 01:49:59,600
of the of the brain stem.
So.

1883
01:50:01,040 --> 01:50:04,360
So the agony of being shot
triggers the Ras to send out a

1884
01:50:04,360 --> 01:50:05,600
signal.
Weakening the muscles of the

1885
01:50:05,600 --> 01:50:07,600
legs causes the person to
collapse.

1886
01:50:08,360 --> 01:50:11,600
And I fact I I was prepared with
a source link.

1887
01:50:11,600 --> 01:50:14,640
So I'm gonna just stick that
right here while we're talking.

1888
01:50:16,920 --> 01:50:22,120
So anyway, that so I posted that
in the chat of the Zoom, but

1889
01:50:22,120 --> 01:50:24,600
it's also in the description on
my YouTube video, so you can

1890
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:25,920
check out all the source links
there.

1891
01:50:26,160 --> 01:50:32,120
At that you know, so that would
explain Hiram collapsing, you

1892
01:50:32,120 --> 01:50:37,520
know, falling to his knees.
So he it wouldn't necessarily

1893
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:39,960
have caused him to move forward.
I mean, it may have given him a

1894
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:44,200
slight push forward, like IE
towards the door, but it's very

1895
01:50:44,200 --> 01:50:48,320
likely he fell to his knees and
began to fall forward simply

1896
01:50:48,320 --> 01:50:52,160
because, like anatomically, men
fall forward.

1897
01:50:52,240 --> 01:50:56,120
When we get shot by a gun, our
center of mass is in the front,

1898
01:50:56,120 --> 01:50:58,560
just right below the sternum,
kind of at the top of the

1899
01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:01,160
stomach.
And so men naturally fall

1900
01:51:01,160 --> 01:51:04,160
forward when they're when, when
they fall, when they collapse.

1901
01:51:04,360 --> 01:51:07,520
Women fall backwards because a
woman's center of gravity is,

1902
01:51:07,720 --> 01:51:10,520
you know, in the the region of
the buttocks and so it's much

1903
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:13,600
lower and in their rear center
of gravity, so they fall

1904
01:51:13,600 --> 01:51:17,200
backwards.
So now as he was falling to his

1905
01:51:17,200 --> 01:51:20,840
knees and then began to fall
forward Hiram would have also

1906
01:51:20,840 --> 01:51:27,280
had a a natural like biological
reaction to to investigate.

1907
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:30,520
What he probably would is was
expecting to see is an exit

1908
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:31,960
wound.
I mean we know it struck his

1909
01:51:32,400 --> 01:51:37,280
pocket watch in his right breast
pocket and so like if if you do

1910
01:51:37,280 --> 01:51:39,760
it, if you just start to you
know I don't have a pocket right

1911
01:51:39,760 --> 01:51:41,560
here.
But if I did, if I started to

1912
01:51:41,560 --> 01:51:44,600
glance down at my bright right
breast pocket, you'll notice

1913
01:51:44,680 --> 01:51:50,440
that I am exposing the left side
of my nose to you know, shot

1914
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:55,080
directly in front of me.
So while Hiram's head was

1915
01:51:55,080 --> 01:51:59,160
beginning to bend down and to
examine his chest, and while

1916
01:51:59,160 --> 01:52:04,200
likely beginning to fall forward
and and so immediately after

1917
01:52:04,200 --> 01:52:07,080
uttering the words, I'm a dead
man, that's when I believe the

1918
01:52:07,080 --> 01:52:09,840
ball that penetrated the door
was fired and struck him,

1919
01:52:09,840 --> 01:52:11,560
entering on the left side of his
nose.

1920
01:52:13,800 --> 01:52:20,120
And so like basically Hiram was
10, being 10 feet back from the

1921
01:52:20,120 --> 01:52:22,240
door.
That addresses the angle of the

1922
01:52:22,320 --> 01:52:26,760
the bullet hole in the door and
and that would also account for

1923
01:52:26,760 --> 01:52:30,200
there being no muzzle burn from
the muzzle flash and no

1924
01:52:30,600 --> 01:52:32,920
splintering from the door
etcetera.

1925
01:52:33,360 --> 01:52:37,120
So the ball exit entered on the
the left side of his nose exited

1926
01:52:37,120 --> 01:52:38,960
below his jaw but above his
neck.

1927
01:52:40,000 --> 01:52:42,720
So now it's important to note
that the only point of evidence

1928
01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:46,960
against the neck that the the
neck wound was an entrance wound

1929
01:52:47,320 --> 01:52:51,680
was the coroner's report and he
identified it as as an entrance

1930
01:52:51,680 --> 01:52:54,160
wound.
But what's what's very

1931
01:52:54,160 --> 01:52:56,720
interesting and what I found
doing some research was that

1932
01:52:56,720 --> 01:53:00,320
modern trauma surgeons have
determined that entrance and

1933
01:53:00,320 --> 01:53:03,960
exit wounds are misinterpreted
over half the time, even today,

1934
01:53:04,080 --> 01:53:07,840
52% of the time to be exact,
which I have that source link

1935
01:53:07,840 --> 01:53:11,320
I'm going to post here in the in
the comments as well.

1936
01:53:12,320 --> 01:53:17,960
And so, because of this
phenomenon of misidentifying it

1937
01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:21,720
over half the time current, I'm
quoting from another journal

1938
01:53:21,720 --> 01:53:25,120
article, the current forensic
recommendations are that trauma

1939
01:53:25,120 --> 01:53:29,560
clinicians not document the
interpretation of a wound as an

1940
01:53:29,560 --> 01:53:32,320
entrance or exit.
The wound should only be

1941
01:53:32,320 --> 01:53:36,160
described in detail and if
possible, photographed UN quote.

1942
01:53:36,480 --> 01:53:39,520
And so that that article was
published on the National

1943
01:53:39,520 --> 01:53:42,480
Library of Medicine.
Are you a Rocky Mountain Power

1944
01:53:42,480 --> 01:53:46,080
customer?
Oh, come on, How would you like

1945
01:53:46,080 --> 01:53:49,240
to get paid to put a backup
battery in your home?

1946
01:53:49,720 --> 01:53:52,760
Sorry about that.
We're just rolling this live

1947
01:53:52,760 --> 01:53:54,160
here, but.
You're you're good.

1948
01:53:54,160 --> 01:53:59,400
You're good.
So National Library of Medicine

1949
01:53:59,400 --> 01:54:04,760
for those who may not be aware
is like the standard data source

1950
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:10,880
for clinical, forensic, any kind
of medical related data.

1951
01:54:12,360 --> 01:54:14,960
This is something that is
extremely peer reviewed as the

1952
01:54:14,960 --> 01:54:19,120
gold standard for, you know,
scientific evidence in the

1953
01:54:19,120 --> 01:54:21,680
United States in the world
today, so.

1954
01:54:21,840 --> 01:54:23,600
Gotcha.
And there's that link right

1955
01:54:23,600 --> 01:54:30,720
there.
So basically the modern surgeons

1956
01:54:30,720 --> 01:54:33,760
and forensics experts are, I
mean I don't think it's a

1957
01:54:33,760 --> 01:54:36,120
stretch to say they're far more
trained and have far more

1958
01:54:36,120 --> 01:54:39,360
technology, technological tools
at their disposal then existed

1959
01:54:39,360 --> 01:54:41,320
180 years ago on the American
frontier.

1960
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:45,760
And so I can only imagine that
even more than 50% of the time

1961
01:54:45,760 --> 01:54:48,360
entry and exit wounds were
misidentified in the 1840s.

1962
01:54:48,360 --> 01:54:51,680
So that doesn't necessarily
discredit the coroner or you

1963
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:55,000
know, it's not intended to be a
criticism of him or her him.

1964
01:54:55,400 --> 01:54:59,560
It's just that these things are
difficult to identify and so

1965
01:54:59,680 --> 01:55:04,600
modern protocol is to not
identify or interpret those

1966
01:55:04,600 --> 01:55:08,280
things.
So now in addition, so we know

1967
01:55:08,280 --> 01:55:12,800
that bullets are not lasers, so
that same peer reviewed article

1968
01:55:12,800 --> 01:55:14,760
that was published in the
National Library of Medicine

1969
01:55:14,760 --> 01:55:18,560
that I just linked, it says
quote, bullets that strike rigid

1970
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:23,120
changes in density such as bone,
will often be deflected from

1971
01:55:23,120 --> 01:55:25,640
their initial course.
So these are not my words.

1972
01:55:26,200 --> 01:55:28,760
These are the words of actual
forensics experts in a printed,

1973
01:55:28,760 --> 01:55:30,800
published, peer reviewed study
in the National Library of

1974
01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:33,360
Medicine.
In fact, that same study goes on

1975
01:55:33,360 --> 01:55:39,560
to reference a specific case
where, quote, a bullet had

1976
01:55:39,560 --> 01:55:44,360
penetrated the chest, entered
the left pulmonary vein or you

1977
01:55:44,360 --> 01:55:47,680
know, the vein on the left side
of the of the lungs and

1978
01:55:47,720 --> 01:55:50,880
embolized to the left femoral
artery.

1979
01:55:52,920 --> 01:55:56,840
I mean, just let that sink in.
Imagine somebody gets shot by a

1980
01:55:56,840 --> 01:56:01,000
gun, a modern firearm, not a,
not a, you know, 180 years ago

1981
01:56:01,000 --> 01:56:04,560
firearm and it hits him in the
chest and they're, you know,

1982
01:56:04,560 --> 01:56:06,920
there's no exit wound in their
back and they're like, where's

1983
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:08,800
the bullet?
They find it in his left thigh.

1984
01:56:09,960 --> 01:56:13,480
I mean, you know, truth can be
stranger than fiction in other

1985
01:56:13,480 --> 01:56:16,280
words.
And so it's not uncommon for

1986
01:56:16,280 --> 01:56:19,040
bullet trajectories to change in
unpredictable and and sometimes

1987
01:56:19,040 --> 01:56:22,720
dramatic ways after impacting or
penetrating a human body.

1988
01:56:23,080 --> 01:56:25,600
And and so given that this
particular bullet that struck

1989
01:56:25,600 --> 01:56:28,240
the left side of Hiram's face
was most likely a roughly 50

1990
01:56:28,240 --> 01:56:31,520
caliber or half inch diameter
musket ball that had just passed

1991
01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:33,600
through 3/4 of an inch of solid
hardwood.

1992
01:56:33,880 --> 01:56:36,640
So upon striking Hiram's face
bones, while his head was angled

1993
01:56:36,640 --> 01:56:40,920
slightly downward, the ball's
trajectory changed slightly more

1994
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:44,280
down.
And as it exited here, it grazed

1995
01:56:44,280 --> 01:56:48,320
Hiram's vest in two places,
which we we know from the shirt

1996
01:56:48,920 --> 01:56:50,880
there is evidence that a bullet
grazed him.

1997
01:56:50,880 --> 01:56:53,120
It didn't penetrate the skin.
There's no record of that, but

1998
01:56:53,120 --> 01:56:55,760
it did graze his vest in two
places.

1999
01:56:55,760 --> 01:56:59,880
So those two graze marks can't
could be examined today.

2000
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:02,840
I haven't examined them.
I don't think you have either,

2001
01:57:02,840 --> 01:57:04,640
but so after receiving that
wound.

2002
01:57:04,840 --> 01:57:07,920
To his face.
Hiram then fell to the floor.

2003
01:57:08,960 --> 01:57:11,000
I believe it was face down, at
least initially.

2004
01:57:11,400 --> 01:57:14,480
And you know the the eyewitness
accounts do put him lying on his

2005
01:57:14,480 --> 01:57:17,480
back.
I think it's very possible that

2006
01:57:17,480 --> 01:57:21,120
he could have been rolled over
onto his back at some point in

2007
01:57:21,120 --> 01:57:25,040
all the chaos.
But I do think that he fell on

2008
01:57:25,040 --> 01:57:28,280
his face initially because that
matches the biological center of

2009
01:57:28,280 --> 01:57:30,120
mass argument.
And I'm not faulting the

2010
01:57:30,160 --> 01:57:32,600
eyewitness accounts for getting
that little detail wrong,

2011
01:57:32,600 --> 01:57:35,960
'cause, you know, he could have
easily been flipped over to to,

2012
01:57:36,120 --> 01:57:39,280
you know, positively determine
that he was deceased.

2013
01:57:40,320 --> 01:57:41,680
Flipped over by then.
Or.

2014
01:57:41,960 --> 01:57:48,280
Yeah, by by anyone.
So, so, so I believe that he

2015
01:57:48,280 --> 01:57:52,200
bled out and the actual cause of
death was deprivation of oxygen

2016
01:57:52,200 --> 01:57:54,360
to the brain.
Now.

2017
01:57:55,760 --> 01:57:58,560
Head wound.
No, because see, here's the

2018
01:57:58,560 --> 01:58:02,240
thing, like to bleed out there
are actually, it's a surprising

2019
01:58:02,240 --> 01:58:06,000
amount of of blood.
I mean, imagine in your mind

2020
01:58:06,000 --> 01:58:10,240
like 1/2 gallon jug of milk.
Imagine dumping that onto the

2021
01:58:10,240 --> 01:58:14,240
floor once a full half gallon
jug of milk and then filling it

2022
01:58:14,240 --> 01:58:15,560
halfway up again and dumping it
out.

2023
01:58:15,720 --> 01:58:19,160
That's about how much blood is
in a a full grown male human

2024
01:58:19,160 --> 01:58:21,680
being.
And so to bleed out would would

2025
01:58:21,680 --> 01:58:26,320
cause from his face there would
be a huge puddle and so but

2026
01:58:26,320 --> 01:58:30,320
because the the back wound you
know there would be very little

2027
01:58:30,320 --> 01:58:32,560
external bleeding.
But inside your body, inside

2028
01:58:32,560 --> 01:58:34,920
your abdominal cavity, there's a
lot of empty space that your

2029
01:58:34,920 --> 01:58:37,760
guts are just kind of you know
floating around him.

2030
01:58:38,080 --> 01:58:42,240
And so I believe the the the
majority of him bleeding out

2031
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:47,040
happened internally which was
not externally visible and so

2032
01:58:47,200 --> 01:58:52,560
and because he was laying on his
face, at least initially it was,

2033
01:58:52,560 --> 01:58:54,880
it did not exit the the hole in
his back.

2034
01:58:54,880 --> 01:58:57,920
So and then when the mob
returned and opened fire at John

2035
01:58:57,920 --> 01:59:00,840
Taylor and Joseph's hiram's
corpse was struck twice more in

2036
01:59:00,840 --> 01:59:03,720
lower extremities.
But you know no sign of blood.

2037
01:59:04,520 --> 01:59:09,080
So you you believe that?
The MOP came back.

2038
01:59:09,720 --> 01:59:11,360
Yeah.
OK.

2039
01:59:11,360 --> 01:59:17,280
So I guess before I, before I go
on to the the evidence that you

2040
01:59:17,320 --> 01:59:21,640
know after Joseph fired the 6th
shooter through the door went

2041
01:59:21,640 --> 01:59:23,560
begat.
So but before we get to that, I

2042
01:59:23,560 --> 01:59:28,240
do think it's cool to mention
like actually and I'll I'll

2043
01:59:28,240 --> 01:59:30,320
attribute this, I'll give credit
where it's due.

2044
01:59:30,320 --> 01:59:34,240
So Kim sent me some sources that
showed that there's

2045
01:59:34,240 --> 01:59:37,880
documentation that both Joseph's
and Hiram's bodies were placed

2046
01:59:37,880 --> 01:59:41,600
on ice after they were martyred.
Now, of course, back in those

2047
01:59:41,600 --> 01:59:43,680
days, people didn't have
freezers or fridges or

2048
01:59:43,680 --> 01:59:47,040
electricity, so.
So what they'd do is in the

2049
01:59:47,040 --> 01:59:49,800
middle of winter, they'd go to
the nearest lake or pond or

2050
01:59:49,800 --> 01:59:51,880
stream.
They'd cut large blocks of ice.

2051
01:59:51,880 --> 01:59:54,800
They'd carry them by wagon or
sleigh to the local ice house,

2052
01:59:55,000 --> 01:59:58,080
which as the name suggests, it
was a special like extra

2053
01:59:58,080 --> 02:00:01,800
insulated structure designed to
store ice long term.

2054
02:00:02,280 --> 02:00:04,720
And they'd pack the ice blocks
in sawdust.

2055
02:00:05,040 --> 02:00:09,240
Now amazingly these ice blocks
would last well into the summer

2056
02:00:09,240 --> 02:00:13,960
sometimes through the summer.
And you know and you can Google

2057
02:00:13,960 --> 02:00:18,120
this stuff like if if this isn't
it's this I I I like to read old

2058
02:00:18,120 --> 02:00:21,880
Westerns and and you know
pioneer types of books and so.

2059
02:00:21,880 --> 02:00:24,480
I I grew up.
You know, being aware of this,

2060
02:00:24,480 --> 02:00:27,240
But you know, if if it's not
something that you've ever seen

2061
02:00:27,240 --> 02:00:30,040
before, feel free to Google it
and and just kind of validate

2062
02:00:30,040 --> 02:00:33,040
this for yourself.
So the reason that this is

2063
02:00:33,040 --> 02:00:36,880
important is, you know, as any
mother would know, if blood gets

2064
02:00:36,880 --> 02:00:39,600
on to fabric like your kid gets
a bloody nose or whatever, you

2065
02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:42,280
don't want it to permanently
stain the outfit.

2066
02:00:42,640 --> 02:00:44,960
You take it off and soak it in
cold water.

2067
02:00:45,880 --> 02:00:48,440
So in other words cold
temperatures arrest the staining

2068
02:00:48,440 --> 02:00:51,760
effect of of blood.
Now the reason I think this is

2069
02:00:51,760 --> 02:00:54,760
noteworthy is because you know,
while I did say that there were

2070
02:00:54,760 --> 02:00:58,960
no major blood vessels on in in,
you know, the region where Hiram

2071
02:00:58,960 --> 02:01:01,520
was struck in the back, there
are small capillaries in the

2072
02:01:01,520 --> 02:01:04,680
skin that I would expect to see
at least some bleeding.

2073
02:01:05,080 --> 02:01:07,600
And yet Hiram's shirt has no
blood stains on the back

2074
02:01:07,600 --> 02:01:11,240
whatsoever despite a .69 caliber
bullet hole being there.

2075
02:01:11,920 --> 02:01:13,880
So I believe that the
explanation there is is that

2076
02:01:13,880 --> 02:01:17,440
when they placed his and and
Joseph's bodies on ice, it

2077
02:01:17,440 --> 02:01:20,480
prevented the the blood stains
on his back from becoming

2078
02:01:20,480 --> 02:01:23,320
permanent and so they were able
to be washed out later.

2079
02:01:24,680 --> 02:01:26,880
OK, so back to the room in
Carthage.

2080
02:01:28,080 --> 02:01:31,680
So immediately after Hiram was
struck with the first bullet in

2081
02:01:31,680 --> 02:01:34,800
his back, hearing him cry that
he was a dead man, Joseph

2082
02:01:35,200 --> 02:01:38,200
exclaimed.
Oh my dear brother Hiram and

2083
02:01:39,120 --> 02:01:42,280
made the decision to fire his
six shooter revolver at the men

2084
02:01:42,280 --> 02:01:45,760
trying to enter the door.
I I believe Joseph would have

2085
02:01:45,760 --> 02:01:47,920
never left the room because from
his point of view.

2086
02:01:48,520 --> 02:01:50,840
There was, literally.
A mob of armed men on the other

2087
02:01:50,840 --> 02:01:53,440
side of the door that he knew
were intent on killing him, that

2088
02:01:53,440 --> 02:01:54,880
he they had just killed his
brother.

2089
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:58,400
So he he drew the weapon shot
through the opening of the door,

2090
02:01:58,560 --> 02:02:02,160
hitting three mob members and
and apparently it misfired three

2091
02:02:02,160 --> 02:02:06,360
times, but that caused the mob
to temporarily retreat.

2092
02:02:07,120 --> 02:02:10,440
You know how long?
Maybe a few seconds, maybe a

2093
02:02:10,440 --> 02:02:11,560
minute or two.
I don't know.

2094
02:02:11,560 --> 02:02:15,320
But they I believe that the mob
quickly regrouped and could be

2095
02:02:15,320 --> 02:02:19,280
heard coming back up the stairs
to finish the job they'd come to

2096
02:02:19,280 --> 02:02:21,280
do now as they could hear the
mob returning.

2097
02:02:21,840 --> 02:02:24,240
That's when John Taylor decided
to check if there is any hope of

2098
02:02:24,240 --> 02:02:28,600
escape from the window and he
was struck by bullets shot from

2099
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:32,760
the mob members at the door
coming into the room and and he

2100
02:02:32,760 --> 02:02:35,120
thought he would fall out the
window because he was like

2101
02:02:35,120 --> 02:02:36,880
leaning forward.
He thought he was going to fall

2102
02:02:36,880 --> 02:02:40,000
out the at the time and he
didn't under he didn't know why

2103
02:02:40,080 --> 02:02:42,640
he didn't and fell down inside
the room.

2104
02:02:44,160 --> 02:02:47,560
Now later on it was discovered
that his pocket watch was broken

2105
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:50,320
and had a small caliber bullet
hole in it which was speculated

2106
02:02:50,520 --> 02:02:54,120
had been struck by a bullet from
outside and that was the reason

2107
02:02:54,120 --> 02:02:55,720
John Taylor hadn't fallen out
the window.

2108
02:02:56,600 --> 02:03:01,640
Now since your documentary
attempted to to portray that

2109
02:03:01,640 --> 02:03:04,200
that could have never happened,
I'm I'm going to just say here

2110
02:03:04,200 --> 02:03:08,240
that the results of your
experiment the the you know you

2111
02:03:08,240 --> 02:03:11,720
shooting the pocket watch don't
surprise me at all because you

2112
02:03:11,960 --> 02:03:14,240
'cause it was a a apples to
oranges comparison.

2113
02:03:14,560 --> 02:03:18,240
So the reason I I'm gonna say
that is because to actually

2114
02:03:18,280 --> 02:03:21,640
replicate and test the effect of
a shooting a pocket watch in

2115
02:03:21,920 --> 02:03:26,920
that was on a human person's
body, you'd need to use some

2116
02:03:26,920 --> 02:03:30,000
representation of a human body
as the backdrop 'cause when a

2117
02:03:30,000 --> 02:03:33,840
bullet strikes a target there
there's forces which in the laws

2118
02:03:33,840 --> 02:03:36,640
of physics are defined as, you
know, mass times velocity.

2119
02:03:36,640 --> 02:03:38,960
Bullets are small in mass but
very high velocity.

2120
02:03:38,960 --> 02:03:42,400
So there's an amazing amount of
force packed in a small package

2121
02:03:42,680 --> 02:03:47,200
that that now that force when it
encounters an equal or opposite

2122
02:03:47,200 --> 02:03:51,200
force gets transferred that that
kinetic force, that movement

2123
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:53,040
gets transferred into the
target.

2124
02:03:53,480 --> 02:03:56,480
Now, not enough to blow a guy
back 20 feet like in Hollywood,

2125
02:03:57,320 --> 02:04:00,560
You know, that's just fantasy.
But if a man was off balance,

2126
02:04:00,840 --> 02:04:04,920
like falling forward and and a
bullet struck and was brought to

2127
02:04:04,920 --> 02:04:08,600
a complete stop by something in
the man's pocket, is it

2128
02:04:08,600 --> 02:04:11,160
plausible that it could change
the direction he was falling?

2129
02:04:11,240 --> 02:04:14,680
Absolutely yes.
In addition, if that energy was

2130
02:04:14,680 --> 02:04:17,600
dispersed through the human body
behind the watch and the watch

2131
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:21,720
didn't absorb all of that
energy, it it wouldn't

2132
02:04:21,720 --> 02:04:24,280
necessarily have to be blown to
shreds like.

2133
02:04:24,280 --> 02:04:28,760
So in your experiment you had a
a wooden board behind it and so

2134
02:04:28,840 --> 02:04:33,080
all of that force from the
bullet impacting was absorbed by

2135
02:04:33,080 --> 02:04:35,320
the watch and predictably it
blew.

2136
02:04:35,360 --> 02:04:39,680
It got blown to shreds.
That's expected by anybody that

2137
02:04:39,680 --> 02:04:43,200
understands terminal Ballistics,
but but so my point is that your

2138
02:04:43,200 --> 02:04:46,160
setup was was fundamentally
flawed.

2139
02:04:47,080 --> 02:04:49,640
Now also the caliber of the
bullet that struck Don Taylor's

2140
02:04:49,640 --> 02:04:53,320
pocket watch.
It was not a 69 caliber musket

2141
02:04:53,320 --> 02:04:56,320
ball, which would have a lot
more force 'cause it's a lot

2142
02:04:56,320 --> 02:04:59,240
more mass.
And so the hole in his pocket

2143
02:04:59,240 --> 02:05:02,200
watch is pretty small.
Like I've never I've never

2144
02:05:02,200 --> 02:05:04,480
actually handled the pocket
watch and and measured the

2145
02:05:04,480 --> 02:05:08,960
diameter, but it to me it looks
more like a 22 type of a caliber

2146
02:05:09,560 --> 02:05:13,240
which would have been fired from
a sidearm, not a musket by one

2147
02:05:13,240 --> 02:05:18,600
of the mob members below.
OK, so so John is is struck by 4

2148
02:05:18,600 --> 02:05:22,480
balls, falls to the floor, rolls
under the bed now.

2149
02:05:22,480 --> 02:05:25,960
Oh, there was a point of there
being 2 windows in the room.

2150
02:05:26,320 --> 02:05:28,880
So if John went to the smaller
window, that could explain why

2151
02:05:28,880 --> 02:05:30,600
Joseph would go to the other
larger window.

2152
02:05:31,760 --> 02:05:34,080
But regardless, even if John
Taylor went to the larger

2153
02:05:34,080 --> 02:05:36,800
window, which would make more
sense in my mind, that he was

2154
02:05:37,040 --> 02:05:38,560
afraid that he was going to fall
out.

2155
02:05:38,800 --> 02:05:40,760
What do you mean?
You mean there's there's three

2156
02:05:40,760 --> 02:05:42,800
windows?
Which two windows are you

2157
02:05:43,000 --> 02:05:44,560
talking?
About, I'm referring to, there's

2158
02:05:44,560 --> 02:05:49,320
the the large window which is
directly across from the door,

2159
02:05:49,560 --> 02:05:51,320
and then there's like if you're
if you're.

2160
02:05:51,840 --> 02:05:53,320
Like we always put the door on
the left.

2161
02:05:53,320 --> 02:05:56,000
Side all the painters depictions
and because the you know the

2162
02:05:56,000 --> 02:06:00,760
doors in the far left corner and
so we always look at it from

2163
02:06:00,760 --> 02:06:02,840
that perspective.
So if the door's on the left,

2164
02:06:02,840 --> 02:06:08,080
the window's on the right, there
was another window behind above,

2165
02:06:08,080 --> 02:06:09,560
like the where the bed was
right.

2166
02:06:09,920 --> 02:06:14,120
So he jumped on the bed and
tried to go through that window.

2167
02:06:14,120 --> 02:06:15,520
Is that what you mean?
Possibly.

2168
02:06:15,560 --> 02:06:19,040
Like, you know, he doesn't.
There's no I I didn't see any

2169
02:06:19,040 --> 02:06:21,760
indication from either the
eyewitness accounts, him

2170
02:06:21,760 --> 02:06:24,520
identifying specifically which
window he went to.

2171
02:06:24,960 --> 02:06:28,520
I'm just saying that regardless,
like if he went to the window

2172
02:06:29,160 --> 02:06:32,320
above the bed, that could
explain why Joseph would go to

2173
02:06:32,320 --> 02:06:34,080
the other window across from the
door, right?

2174
02:06:34,600 --> 02:06:38,800
But even if John Taylor went to
the large window directly across

2175
02:06:38,800 --> 02:06:42,760
the, you know, the opposite wall
from the door, I think it's

2176
02:06:42,760 --> 02:06:45,560
still reasonable given that
there were no other possible

2177
02:06:45,560 --> 02:06:48,680
exits or escapes from that room
from that situation besides a

2178
02:06:48,680 --> 02:06:51,280
window.
So anyway, as Joseph rushes to

2179
02:06:51,280 --> 02:07:02,160
the window, the mob which has
breached the door fires upon it

2180
02:07:02,200 --> 02:07:04,720
from behind.
And Willard, of course, was

2181
02:07:04,720 --> 02:07:07,120
hidden from view of the mob
because he was on the hinge side

2182
02:07:07,120 --> 02:07:09,200
of the door.
So the mob forces the door open,

2183
02:07:09,360 --> 02:07:11,200
forces him into the corner
behind the door.

2184
02:07:11,200 --> 02:07:14,680
He is out of sight.
Out of mind maybe?

2185
02:07:15,080 --> 02:07:18,640
But do you believe that's just
your theory or because he said

2186
02:07:18,640 --> 02:07:22,280
he was on the other side but
then told the coroner that he

2187
02:07:22,280 --> 02:07:25,960
was behind the door so?
You I I think.

2188
02:07:26,000 --> 02:07:30,000
That in the heat of the moment
and the stress, it's very likely

2189
02:07:30,000 --> 02:07:32,640
he could have misremembered upon
later recollection.

2190
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:35,640
He misremembered that he was
behind the door the whole time.

2191
02:07:36,200 --> 02:07:41,400
Yeah, yeah, OK.
Especially if, especially if you

2192
02:07:41,400 --> 02:07:46,600
know human nature is to
embellish over time.

2193
02:07:47,000 --> 02:07:52,000
And in fact, it would be
remarkable if people didn't, you

2194
02:07:52,000 --> 02:07:54,400
know, that's why they they call
them the big fish stories,

2195
02:07:54,400 --> 02:07:56,400
right?
The fish gets bigger and bigger

2196
02:07:56,400 --> 02:07:57,760
the more times you tell the
story.

2197
02:07:58,120 --> 02:08:00,400
And that's just a natural part
of human nature.

2198
02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:02,760
That doesn't mean that it wasn't
a big fish to begin with.

2199
02:08:03,040 --> 02:08:07,080
It just means that over time
things get tend to get

2200
02:08:07,080 --> 02:08:09,040
exaggerated and that's just
human nature.

2201
02:08:09,040 --> 02:08:11,480
So I have no problem.
I'm not, I'm not accusing

2202
02:08:11,480 --> 02:08:15,880
Willard of being like a a
malicious liar for making

2203
02:08:15,880 --> 02:08:17,560
embellishments if if he did
that.

2204
02:08:18,480 --> 02:08:22,000
I just believe that it's far
more likely the fact that he was

2205
02:08:22,000 --> 02:08:26,400
never struck by by balls unless
possibly the ear grazing.

2206
02:08:26,400 --> 02:08:28,880
But you know, I think that it's
far more likely that he was

2207
02:08:28,880 --> 02:08:32,880
behind the door at the time that
Joseph was was fired upon.

2208
02:08:33,520 --> 02:08:37,920
And so anyway, so in the act of
of Joseph trying to jump out the

2209
02:08:37,920 --> 02:08:43,480
window, he was struck by balls
shot from behind, you know, from

2210
02:08:43,480 --> 02:08:46,640
the mob at the door of the room
as well as in front.

2211
02:08:47,080 --> 02:08:51,240
And as a result of those shots,
he stumbled and and fell head

2212
02:08:51,240 --> 02:08:54,800
first out of the window, hit the
ground with his forehead first.

2213
02:08:55,320 --> 02:08:58,400
And you know there's evidence
that he was not instantly killed

2214
02:08:58,560 --> 02:09:02,520
because he leaned up against the
wall and was beaten, at least

2215
02:09:02,520 --> 02:09:04,840
according to one of the mob
members, before he died.

2216
02:09:05,280 --> 02:09:10,320
And and you know, so Willard, if
he was behind the door, the and

2217
02:09:10,320 --> 02:09:13,600
the mob immediately rushed out
after Joseph was their target,

2218
02:09:14,040 --> 02:09:17,440
clearly.
And so as the mob saw that he

2219
02:09:17,440 --> 02:09:20,520
was no longer in the room, they
would have rushed out and down

2220
02:09:20,520 --> 02:09:23,040
the stairs and so Willard would
have been relatively safe.

2221
02:09:23,360 --> 02:09:28,760
Now he's a big guy for sure, you
know, about ��300 by accounts,

2222
02:09:29,200 --> 02:09:32,200
but but like we discussed last
time, nobody's going to approach

2223
02:09:32,200 --> 02:09:36,960
a window casually when you just
saw your friend or two of your

2224
02:09:36,960 --> 02:09:41,600
friends, or maybe 3 like so.
Hiram, John and John Joseph were

2225
02:09:41,600 --> 02:09:46,440
all shot through this same
window minutes before He would

2226
02:09:46,440 --> 02:09:50,840
have crept up and he would have,
you know, peaked over the the

2227
02:09:50,840 --> 02:09:54,200
bottom of the sill.
Now you know today the ledge

2228
02:09:54,200 --> 02:09:57,520
might have a larger overhang.
Maybe back in 1844 it was the

2229
02:09:57,520 --> 02:09:59,560
same ledge, or maybe it was
replaced in one of the multiple

2230
02:09:59,560 --> 02:10:04,760
remodels since that time.
Regardless, it's possible that

2231
02:10:04,760 --> 02:10:06,480
his ear was grazed by a stray
shot.

2232
02:10:07,160 --> 02:10:10,040
It doesn't necessarily mean that
if it wasn't it, it makes him a

2233
02:10:10,040 --> 02:10:13,600
liar because again, human nature
is to embellish things over

2234
02:10:13,600 --> 02:10:16,640
time.
But he wouldn't have just been

2235
02:10:16,640 --> 02:10:22,040
sitting there like staring.
He would have glanced quickly

2236
02:10:22,040 --> 02:10:26,840
and then ducked back undercover.
So the the the idea that he had

2237
02:10:26,840 --> 02:10:31,200
to fill the window is just
unsupported by human nature let

2238
02:10:31,200 --> 02:10:37,440
alone any historical evidence
and and so now so if the

2239
02:10:37,440 --> 02:10:40,000
martyrdom happened today I think
this is important.

2240
02:10:40,320 --> 02:10:44,440
Another important point is like
in a modern forensics team went

2241
02:10:44,600 --> 02:10:46,480
to the untampered with crime
scene.

2242
02:10:47,160 --> 02:10:50,040
Sure, it's likely they'd be able
to determine tons more facts

2243
02:10:50,040 --> 02:10:51,600
than what we have access to
today.

2244
02:10:52,640 --> 02:10:56,360
But the facts of this matter is
that the the martyrdom happened

2245
02:10:56,920 --> 02:10:59,840
nearly 180 years ago.
Modern forensic tech did not

2246
02:10:59,840 --> 02:11:03,000
exist at the time the the bodies
had been buried.

2247
02:11:03,680 --> 02:11:07,800
There's no crime scene.
It's been 180 years.

2248
02:11:07,840 --> 02:11:10,440
The jail's been remodeled.
So like, we don't have the

2249
02:11:10,440 --> 02:11:15,040
bullets, we don't have blood
splatters we don't have pictures

2250
02:11:15,040 --> 02:11:16,040
of.
Of.

2251
02:11:16,040 --> 02:11:18,920
The bodies, where they were
lying, the the crime scene has

2252
02:11:18,920 --> 02:11:21,280
been tampered with.
Obviously we don't have the the

2253
02:11:21,280 --> 02:11:23,880
murder weapons or the muskets
that were involved.

2254
02:11:23,880 --> 02:11:27,320
We don't have the pistols.
I think I already said that, but

2255
02:11:27,440 --> 02:11:29,840
it was like multiple remodels in
the time.

2256
02:11:30,120 --> 02:11:35,160
So there was a blood stain
apparently on the floor up until

2257
02:11:35,400 --> 02:11:38,320
I think it was President Kimball
in the 60s or 70s or something

2258
02:11:38,640 --> 02:11:43,880
said let's, let's clean that up.
And so we know that the, the

2259
02:11:43,880 --> 02:11:46,960
window and the frame were
replaced and so that could have

2260
02:11:46,960 --> 02:11:48,360
easily included the window
ledge.

2261
02:11:49,280 --> 02:11:51,800
You know, also another important
thing is back east.

2262
02:11:52,160 --> 02:11:55,560
Like I I served a mission in
Detroit and I've spent time

2263
02:11:55,560 --> 02:11:57,560
working in the South in the
summertime and stuff.

2264
02:11:57,800 --> 02:12:00,960
It's very common to pressure
wash the exteriors of buildings

2265
02:12:00,960 --> 02:12:03,000
out there just because of the
climate.

2266
02:12:04,240 --> 02:12:08,400
And so, like, in addition to 180
years worth of weathering to me,

2267
02:12:08,640 --> 02:12:10,880
pressure washing could explain
why.

2268
02:12:11,080 --> 02:12:12,600
You know, modern visitors, we
don't.

2269
02:12:12,600 --> 02:12:14,920
We go, and we don't see visible
evidence of musket balls

2270
02:12:14,920 --> 02:12:19,720
striking the exterior.
OK, so.

2271
02:12:20,360 --> 02:12:24,280
That's that's kind of the the
the theory but I have, I have

2272
02:12:24,320 --> 02:12:28,080
just a few final statements if
that's OK before you dive in and

2273
02:12:28,080 --> 02:12:30,320
and ask questions.
Is that cool?

2274
02:12:30,760 --> 02:12:32,360
Yeah, absolutely.
Right on.

2275
02:12:33,320 --> 02:12:42,040
So I think it's important to say
that it's impossible for me to

2276
02:12:42,120 --> 02:12:46,160
prove to actually prove my own
theory that that's what really

2277
02:12:46,160 --> 02:12:49,600
happened as you stated multiple
times in our last conversation.

2278
02:12:51,720 --> 02:12:56,000
Now you're you said like I kind
of tried to ask you a couple of

2279
02:12:56,000 --> 02:12:58,720
different times couple of
different ways about motive like

2280
02:12:58,880 --> 02:13:05,000
asked you to to speak to motive
which you declined to do and but

2281
02:13:05,000 --> 02:13:08,600
as as a quick aside I have a
good friend his brother is a has

2282
02:13:08,600 --> 02:13:14,160
been a homicide detective in
Arizona for many years and I

2283
02:13:14,160 --> 02:13:20,120
didn't no context I just asked
and he he said that as a

2284
02:13:20,120 --> 02:13:22,880
homicide detective he would
never consider investigating

2285
02:13:23,120 --> 02:13:25,640
forensic evidence in a vacuum
like without investigating

2286
02:13:25,640 --> 02:13:28,760
motive.
So anyway as I thought through

2287
02:13:28,760 --> 02:13:31,880
all of these points I I
anticipated several possible

2288
02:13:31,880 --> 02:13:35,160
objections that you could bring
up to discredit my story my

2289
02:13:35,160 --> 02:13:39,520
theory and as I was thinking
about it I realized something

2290
02:13:39,560 --> 02:13:42,440
very important that you said a
few times in our last meeting

2291
02:13:42,720 --> 02:13:45,040
and and that's about
epistemology.

2292
02:13:45,400 --> 02:13:49,400
Are you familiar with that term?
Kind of a scholarly So

2293
02:13:49,400 --> 02:13:54,920
epistemology just being how do
you determine what is true?

2294
02:13:55,920 --> 02:14:02,480
And I think you know that well I
I heard you say many times that

2295
02:14:02,680 --> 02:14:07,160
you you believe that what is
most likely is probably what is

2296
02:14:07,160 --> 02:14:09,280
true.
So your epistemology would be

2297
02:14:09,320 --> 02:14:11,960
what is the most likely the what
is probable that you know

2298
02:14:11,960 --> 02:14:14,440
probability would be your
epistemology in this situation

2299
02:14:15,680 --> 02:14:18,640
and and explicitly like
exclusively based on the

2300
02:14:18,640 --> 02:14:25,600
forensic evidence.
So to kind of just illustrate

2301
02:14:25,600 --> 02:14:28,480
what that means, you know the
implications is like if we take

2302
02:14:28,480 --> 02:14:32,200
two dice and we roll them, it
must be a 7, the result must be

2303
02:14:32,200 --> 02:14:34,160
a seven.
We don't look at the results and

2304
02:14:34,160 --> 02:14:37,560
and look at it, we say it has to
be a 7 because that is the

2305
02:14:37,560 --> 02:14:40,480
highest probability outcome.
You know it, it couldn't be a

2306
02:14:40,480 --> 02:14:43,800
two, couldn't be a 12 because
those are less probable than A7.

2307
02:14:43,800 --> 02:14:47,080
There's way more combinations of
dice to to get to 7 and so

2308
02:14:47,080 --> 02:14:50,520
that's most likely.
Or similarly, the odds of a

2309
02:14:50,520 --> 02:14:55,200
person who buys lottery tickets,
or who, like, goes and plays a

2310
02:14:55,200 --> 02:14:58,760
slot machine in Vegas.
Their odds of winning the

2311
02:14:58,760 --> 02:15:01,800
jackpot are statistically
minuscule.

2312
02:15:01,800 --> 02:15:07,720
Like, infinitesimally small.
And so by your epistemology, it

2313
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:12,200
would be impossible for anyone
to ever win the lottery or the

2314
02:15:12,200 --> 02:15:14,480
jackpot, because it's so
unlikely.

2315
02:15:15,400 --> 02:15:17,720
And yet we all know it happens
every day to all sorts of

2316
02:15:17,720 --> 02:15:18,600
people.
So.

2317
02:15:19,000 --> 02:15:24,080
So this is my objective analysis
of a fundamental flaw to your

2318
02:15:24,160 --> 02:15:28,280
approach.
In addition, let's define

2319
02:15:28,280 --> 02:15:31,920
another term that you like to
throw around the the forensic

2320
02:15:31,920 --> 02:15:33,480
science.
Like forensic science is

2321
02:15:33,480 --> 02:15:36,040
scientific, meaning there's no
room for conjecture.

2322
02:15:36,320 --> 02:15:39,560
So this requires being able to
examine and, you know,

2323
02:15:39,560 --> 02:15:42,360
positively identify the bullet
location of impact, trajectory

2324
02:15:42,360 --> 02:15:45,640
or trajectories involved in a
pristine, uncontaminated and

2325
02:15:45,640 --> 02:15:49,360
controlled scene.
That being the case, as you said

2326
02:15:49,640 --> 02:15:53,000
in our our last conversation,
that like, you had to make a

2327
02:15:53,000 --> 02:15:56,760
bunch of assumptions and fill in
holes in your conclusions as you

2328
02:15:56,760 --> 02:15:59,920
presented them, that's not
forensic science.

2329
02:16:00,360 --> 02:16:02,360
Science is disciplined, It's
reproducible.

2330
02:16:02,360 --> 02:16:06,640
It's, you know, neither of us
has actually seen the bullets.

2331
02:16:06,640 --> 02:16:08,800
Neither of us has actually
handled the murder weapons.

2332
02:16:09,000 --> 02:16:13,400
Neither of us has physically
examined the shirt or the skull

2333
02:16:13,400 --> 02:16:15,920
or the pocket watch.
But maybe you, maybe you have.

2334
02:16:15,920 --> 02:16:16,840
I don't know.
I haven't.

2335
02:16:16,920 --> 02:16:20,120
We're examined the room in its
condition immediately after the

2336
02:16:20,120 --> 02:16:22,240
martyrdom.
In other words, neither of us

2337
02:16:22,680 --> 02:16:26,160
has any business to even claim
the forensic evidence can

2338
02:16:26,160 --> 02:16:29,200
provide a scientific answer.
We have very little.

2339
02:16:29,280 --> 02:16:31,800
I I mean, we have a hole in a
door, we have some pictures of

2340
02:16:31,800 --> 02:16:34,320
some skulls and we have a shirt
with some holes and blood

2341
02:16:34,320 --> 02:16:35,639
stains.
That's about it.

2342
02:16:37,360 --> 02:16:40,520
But anyway, so despite your
epistemology being what is the

2343
02:16:40,520 --> 02:16:44,400
most probable thing, I I don't
believe your documentary is even

2344
02:16:44,400 --> 02:16:46,840
about that cause.
Like what's the probability that

2345
02:16:46,840 --> 02:16:50,040
John Taylor and Willard Richards
were armed when we know there

2346
02:16:50,040 --> 02:16:52,600
was no evidence whatsoever they
had guns with them in that room?

2347
02:16:52,680 --> 02:16:56,040
You know, also motive.
Motive is a massive aspect of

2348
02:16:56,040 --> 02:16:58,799
probability.
Like, anybody, I, I, I like

2349
02:16:59,000 --> 02:17:01,799
enjoy reading and and watching
murder mysteries.

2350
02:17:02,600 --> 02:17:06,080
We anybody that sees a murder
mystery knows that if you know

2351
02:17:06,080 --> 02:17:08,680
if I had told you that a guy had
threatened to divorce his wife

2352
02:17:08,680 --> 02:17:12,080
and was not going to give her
support and then the next day

2353
02:17:12,360 --> 02:17:18,639
he's found dead probability
would make the wife the widow a

2354
02:17:18,639 --> 02:17:21,240
leading suspect in that in that
investigation.

2355
02:17:21,600 --> 02:17:24,600
So like in the context of
Carthage what is the probability

2356
02:17:24,840 --> 02:17:29,320
that two guys are going to stage
a murder of two friends while

2357
02:17:29,320 --> 02:17:34,200
they're in the room with them
and a mob with guns is shooting

2358
02:17:34,200 --> 02:17:38,000
at the at their targets like
they you know there are so many

2359
02:17:38,000 --> 02:17:41,680
more probable ways that if John
and Willard wanted to kill

2360
02:17:41,680 --> 02:17:43,639
Joseph and Hiram they could have
poisoned them.

2361
02:17:43,719 --> 02:17:46,959
No, no risk to themselves.
You know, Joseph and Hyrum we

2362
02:17:46,959 --> 02:17:50,160
know were unarmed on their trip
from Nauvoo to Carthage, meaning

2363
02:17:50,480 --> 02:17:53,120
they could have killed him in
transit, like at any point on

2364
02:17:53,120 --> 02:17:54,760
that road where there's no
witnesses.

2365
02:17:55,000 --> 02:17:58,120
A mob wasn't shooting at them.
They weren't possibly in the

2366
02:17:58,400 --> 02:18:00,080
able to be able to get caught in
the crossfire.

2367
02:18:00,480 --> 02:18:04,879
So why pick a room when you're
right next to your intended

2368
02:18:04,879 --> 02:18:07,879
victims and incite a mob to to
only hang him?

2369
02:18:10,080 --> 02:18:12,280
And yet you did acknowledge that
shots were fired from the mob

2370
02:18:12,280 --> 02:18:15,879
outside.
So, so to me a much better

2371
02:18:15,879 --> 02:18:21,320
epistemology than probability is
reason.

2372
02:18:21,760 --> 02:18:24,400
Like for example, our our legal
system is more concerned about

2373
02:18:24,400 --> 02:18:28,000
finding the truth than any
other, you know, earthly

2374
02:18:28,000 --> 02:18:31,760
institution, because justice
cannot be served, cannot prevail

2375
02:18:31,760 --> 02:18:34,799
if the truth is not reached.
So for this reason, the standard

2376
02:18:34,799 --> 02:18:37,000
of our justice system is reason,
not probability.

2377
02:18:39,400 --> 02:18:45,360
So we'll that that was just the
me presenting my theory only the

2378
02:18:45,360 --> 02:18:51,440
the uncut version has a lot more
and and I actually go in and I I

2379
02:18:51,480 --> 02:18:56,240
I do some other stuff but but so
the bottom line is in a court if

2380
02:18:56,240 --> 02:18:59,840
you're accused of murder and
you're a living person you must

2381
02:19:00,120 --> 02:19:08,680
have the guilt be proven beyond
a reasonable doubt and and you

2382
02:19:08,680 --> 02:19:14,120
know Justin Griffin can't even
can't even make probable cause

2383
02:19:14,760 --> 02:19:18,400
without just if the narrative
falling apart upon a little bit

2384
02:19:18,400 --> 02:19:22,000
of scrutiny let alone prove
things beyond a reasonable doubt

2385
02:19:22,000 --> 02:19:24,840
and so and you're thrown around
murder accusations.

2386
02:19:26,840 --> 02:19:31,040
I will say this false
accusations going back to what

2387
02:19:31,040 --> 02:19:34,920
you said at the very beginning
of this conversation is is woke

2388
02:19:34,920 --> 02:19:37,799
ideology.
It's it's progressive tactics

2389
02:19:37,799 --> 02:19:40,600
like it's the me too movement.
It's just that you know we're

2390
02:19:40,600 --> 02:19:43,440
gonna just claim something
happened.

2391
02:19:43,440 --> 02:19:46,520
Nobody's going to cross examine
the the witness or or validate

2392
02:19:46,520 --> 02:19:48,680
the claim or or anything along
those lines.

2393
02:19:49,080 --> 02:19:53,640
We're just going to make the
accusations.

2394
02:19:53,640 --> 02:19:57,360
And no, no trial.
No no examination no due

2395
02:19:57,360 --> 02:20:01,600
process.
Oh that person's abusing has has

2396
02:20:01,600 --> 02:20:03,640
been an abuser.
We're going to cancel them.

2397
02:20:04,000 --> 02:20:08,680
Like no process, no trial.
No, no ability to defend

2398
02:20:08,680 --> 02:20:10,080
yourself.
And many people have been

2399
02:20:10,080 --> 02:20:12,960
victims of woke cancel culture,
right?

2400
02:20:13,640 --> 02:20:16,200
Some probably deserved it, but
not everybody.

2401
02:20:16,360 --> 02:20:21,160
And you know, in the founding of
this country, the founders were

2402
02:20:21,160 --> 02:20:23,680
much more concerned with
protecting the innocent than

2403
02:20:23,680 --> 02:20:27,920
punishing the guilty because
they believed that God was the

2404
02:20:27,960 --> 02:20:33,080
ultimate arbiter, that that if
people were guilty of sins or

2405
02:20:33,080 --> 02:20:36,520
crimes that they would not
escape being held accountable

2406
02:20:36,520 --> 02:20:39,680
for that with, if even if it
wasn't in this life, that they

2407
02:20:39,680 --> 02:20:41,200
would account to God in the
next.

2408
02:20:41,480 --> 02:20:44,920
And so their primary concern was
they would much rather

2409
02:20:45,720 --> 02:20:52,800
accidentally let a guilty man go
than to accidentally punish an

2410
02:20:52,800 --> 02:20:54,160
innocent person.
Right.

2411
02:20:55,160 --> 02:20:58,440
And and you know, and this is
very biblical, like in the Old

2412
02:20:58,440 --> 02:21:02,360
Testament, yes there were a lot
of sins but they all required

2413
02:21:02,360 --> 02:21:05,120
multiple witnesses.
You couldn't just take and the

2414
02:21:05,120 --> 02:21:08,760
and the witnesses had to be
cross examined and and it had to

2415
02:21:08,760 --> 02:21:14,640
be validated and and basically
false accusation.

2416
02:21:15,120 --> 02:21:17,280
You know thou shalt not bear
false witness.

2417
02:21:17,280 --> 02:21:20,120
We usually can we usually
interpret that commandment to be

2418
02:21:20,120 --> 02:21:23,520
thou shalt not lie, you know say
a falsehood.

2419
02:21:24,120 --> 02:21:25,960
But that's actually not what the
commandment says at all.

2420
02:21:26,360 --> 02:21:30,920
Bearing false witness would be
akin to, you know, lying

2421
02:21:30,920 --> 02:21:33,120
underoath.
You're making a witness, you're

2422
02:21:33,120 --> 02:21:36,040
you're making an accusation
falsely.

2423
02:21:36,840 --> 02:21:40,800
And the biblical penalty for
bearing false witness is

2424
02:21:40,800 --> 02:21:45,080
actually really interesting.
Whatever the crime that you're

2425
02:21:45,080 --> 02:21:48,240
accusing somebody falsely of
committing, whatever the

2426
02:21:48,240 --> 02:21:54,240
punishment for that crime is,
that is the penalty for you if

2427
02:21:54,240 --> 02:21:59,120
you bear fault, false witness.
And so I am extremely cautious

2428
02:21:59,440 --> 02:22:03,960
to to make accusations or or to,
you know, accuse people of this

2429
02:22:03,960 --> 02:22:07,440
or that because especially
murder, because what's the

2430
02:22:07,440 --> 02:22:10,480
penalty for murder?
Right, right.

2431
02:22:10,480 --> 02:22:13,520
It's capital offense.
It's like it's death and you

2432
02:22:13,520 --> 02:22:17,800
know and not that every
jurisdiction in the world today

2433
02:22:17,920 --> 02:22:20,920
enforces the biblical penalty.
But biblically, scripturally,

2434
02:22:21,360 --> 02:22:23,440
you know, thou shalt not commit
murder.

2435
02:22:23,440 --> 02:22:25,680
And if you do, you die.
Like your life is forfeit.

2436
02:22:25,680 --> 02:22:29,360
It is a capital offense.
And so if you falsely accuse

2437
02:22:29,360 --> 02:22:36,360
somebody of murder, the biblical
penalty is that is a capital

2438
02:22:36,360 --> 02:22:38,880
offense.
And I think that people that

2439
02:22:38,880 --> 02:22:42,640
throw around these accusations
do so very lightly.

2440
02:22:43,080 --> 02:22:45,560
And I think that it is
symptomatic of, again, that

2441
02:22:45,560 --> 02:22:51,560
progressive woke culture that
that leftist tactic and there's

2442
02:22:51,560 --> 02:22:55,280
really no place for that in the
gospel in in the Kingdom of God.

2443
02:22:55,640 --> 02:22:58,280
And so I guess that's just,
that's pretty much everything I

2444
02:22:58,280 --> 02:23:01,800
wanted to kind of cover and and
say but yeah, any of your

2445
02:23:01,800 --> 02:23:03,280
thoughts or any other?
Questions.

2446
02:23:03,360 --> 02:23:07,920
So I I just jotted down some
notes here as as I was listening

2447
02:23:07,920 --> 02:23:10,600
to to your hypothesis.
Right.

2448
02:23:10,920 --> 02:23:13,400
Yeah.
And it's important here to to

2449
02:23:13,400 --> 02:23:18,720
point out that that your
hypothesis holds to the

2450
02:23:18,720 --> 02:23:23,880
traditional narrative, right?
So you have a narrative, and

2451
02:23:23,880 --> 02:23:27,480
then with that narrative you
have all the extenuating

2452
02:23:27,480 --> 02:23:32,920
circumstances, all the minutiae
that go into filling up that

2453
02:23:32,920 --> 02:23:40,800
narrative.
OK, Griffin, He tries to to fill

2454
02:23:40,800 --> 02:23:45,960
in his narrative with all of
this minutiae.

2455
02:23:45,960 --> 02:23:49,520
Right, The the clock test.
Right, the watch test.

2456
02:23:49,520 --> 02:23:52,560
I should say.
I remember looking at that and

2457
02:23:53,080 --> 02:23:56,360
thinking to myself, you see John
Taylor's watch, right?

2458
02:23:56,760 --> 02:24:01,200
But yet, and and you can still
see it to this day, if I'm not

2459
02:24:01,200 --> 02:24:03,960
mistaken, I think it's still
displayed at the Church History

2460
02:24:03,960 --> 02:24:09,000
Museum.
And as you look at that, there's

2461
02:24:09,000 --> 02:24:10,800
no way that thing's shot with a
musket ball.

2462
02:24:11,400 --> 02:24:14,400
It just no.
But that's what he uses.

2463
02:24:15,840 --> 02:24:17,880
Yeah.
So it's a red herring, right?

2464
02:24:17,880 --> 02:24:19,760
He's setting.
Or a straw man.

2465
02:24:19,760 --> 02:24:21,760
That's what I I meant.
Like it's a straw man.

2466
02:24:21,760 --> 02:24:24,880
You're putting up a really weak,
easily disprovable argument.

2467
02:24:25,560 --> 02:24:29,280
You're obviously disproving it.
And now you're claiming victory.

2468
02:24:29,280 --> 02:24:32,840
Like, oh, I just did this great
thing and and proved this this

2469
02:24:32,840 --> 02:24:35,440
thing right.
Like that's a straw man fallacy.

2470
02:24:35,800 --> 02:24:42,920
Yeah, the The next thing I would
say is you came with things that

2471
02:24:42,920 --> 02:24:47,920
Justin Griffin never did.
You came with like citations

2472
02:24:47,920 --> 02:24:49,920
from, you know, medical
journals.

2473
02:24:49,920 --> 02:24:54,480
Those sorts of things went into
great detail to to support your

2474
02:24:54,960 --> 02:24:58,040
your the that minutiae that goes
into creating that narrative.

2475
02:25:00,600 --> 02:25:04,840
I was thinking about, you know,
'cause this one I always have

2476
02:25:04,840 --> 02:25:07,800
wondered about if he gets shot
here, how does it come down

2477
02:25:07,800 --> 02:25:08,600
through here?
Right.

2478
02:25:09,160 --> 02:25:11,600
I've been a hunter.
I understand bullets do weird

2479
02:25:11,600 --> 02:25:16,960
things, but by and large, you
know that's that's not hugely

2480
02:25:16,960 --> 02:25:19,960
common.
However, you you point out that

2481
02:25:19,960 --> 02:25:24,360
that Hiram was looking down,
maybe checking, you know, OK,

2482
02:25:24,360 --> 02:25:27,400
where else did I get hit?
And if he's down like this,

2483
02:25:27,760 --> 02:25:30,080
maybe he falls to his knees,
right?

2484
02:25:30,080 --> 02:25:33,160
And as he's going down, he's on
his knees or whatever.

2485
02:25:33,600 --> 02:25:36,400
Maybe he gets struck then and
it's kind of at a downward

2486
02:25:36,400 --> 02:25:39,120
trajectory, right?
Well, and he's falling forward.

2487
02:25:39,120 --> 02:25:42,480
So yeah, it's it's really not
that much of a difference of the

2488
02:25:42,480 --> 02:25:45,440
trajectory, change of the
trajectory if he's if it enters

2489
02:25:45,440 --> 02:25:48,720
on the left side of his nose and
exits down here, it only has to

2490
02:25:48,720 --> 02:25:52,880
be about a 1520�� change of angle
for it to not penetrate the

2491
02:25:52,880 --> 02:25:56,800
chest and just graze his vest
as, as we know happened.

2492
02:25:57,040 --> 02:26:02,480
And and the other thing I would
say is that unlike and and you

2493
02:26:02,480 --> 02:26:06,360
can correct me if I'm wrong here
on this, most guns of that time

2494
02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:10,640
were still using ball, right.
They weren't using what we would

2495
02:26:10,640 --> 02:26:14,640
think of as a traditional bullet
that we would think of.

2496
02:26:14,640 --> 02:26:17,160
Today, yeah, because yeah, that
is a true thing.

2497
02:26:17,160 --> 02:26:21,320
They're both projectiles, but
musket balls are not bullets.

2498
02:26:21,560 --> 02:26:25,600
Right, exactly.
And so those are gonna do

2499
02:26:25,600 --> 02:26:27,400
different things, right?
Yes.

2500
02:26:28,040 --> 02:26:34,880
The, the, the the calibrated.
Fine tooth precision that is

2501
02:26:34,880 --> 02:26:39,880
used in in making a bullet today
wasn't what was involved in

2502
02:26:39,880 --> 02:26:42,480
those times, right.
You're talking about literally

2503
02:26:42,480 --> 02:26:47,440
melting down some lead and then
clipping off the obvious J

2504
02:26:47,440 --> 02:26:50,560
jagged angles and like, Yep,
that should work in this caliber

2505
02:26:50,560 --> 02:26:53,960
of rifle.
And so they're going to, they're

2506
02:26:53,960 --> 02:26:56,000
going to have all sorts of
deformities on them.

2507
02:26:56,240 --> 02:26:58,360
That's going to cause them to do
different things.

2508
02:26:59,480 --> 02:27:03,200
The next thing that that I
pointed to the OR that I that I

2509
02:27:03,200 --> 02:27:05,400
thought it jotted down here was
the human memory.

2510
02:27:05,680 --> 02:27:12,880
The human memory is notoriously.
Degrades over.

2511
02:27:13,000 --> 02:27:15,360
Liable, right?
It's not reliable.

2512
02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:23,560
It's just not, I know,
especially in in a traumatic

2513
02:27:23,560 --> 02:27:26,760
situation like that.
Right, high stress.

2514
02:27:27,200 --> 02:27:30,280
Yeah, I look.
I've been in one auto accident,

2515
02:27:31,200 --> 02:27:35,040
just one.
But it was enough that like once

2516
02:27:35,040 --> 02:27:37,360
I got home, I'm like, wait a
second, did I really see that

2517
02:27:37,360 --> 02:27:39,600
that way?
How did that happen?

2518
02:27:39,920 --> 02:27:43,320
Right.
And and as as time went on, it

2519
02:27:43,320 --> 02:27:45,680
became fuzzier and fuzzier,
right?

2520
02:27:46,000 --> 02:27:51,720
And so to expect that the story
would never change, Well, if

2521
02:27:51,720 --> 02:27:53,280
you're gonna, if you're gonna
say well.

2522
02:27:53,280 --> 02:27:56,600
That doesn't seem.
To to make sense with the the

2523
02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:59,200
other narrative, well, then you
might as well throw out these

2524
02:27:59,200 --> 02:28:02,120
scriptures, right?
Because the New Testament in

2525
02:28:02,120 --> 02:28:07,000
itself has, I wouldn't say,
contradictory evidence, but

2526
02:28:07,000 --> 02:28:10,280
because the witnesses were
different, there's different

2527
02:28:10,280 --> 02:28:12,120
points of emphasis that are put
on it.

2528
02:28:13,000 --> 02:28:14,760
Totally.
Now let's talk about

2529
02:28:15,120 --> 02:28:20,200
epistemology here for a minute.
OK, if you're going to go with

2530
02:28:20,200 --> 02:28:24,480
the well, the most likely
scenario has to be the true

2531
02:28:24,480 --> 02:28:28,240
scenario, right?
Throw out the resurrection

2532
02:28:28,960 --> 02:28:32,280
'cause I can tell you from a
natural world world perspective,

2533
02:28:32,640 --> 02:28:35,560
you're you know and you're gonna
use the most probable.

2534
02:28:35,800 --> 02:28:38,320
Well, the most probable is, is
that the disciples broke in

2535
02:28:38,320 --> 02:28:42,400
there, stole Jesus's body, and
then feigned A resurrection that

2536
02:28:42,400 --> 02:28:44,840
is most possible.
Right, most probable.

2537
02:28:45,360 --> 02:28:47,080
Most probable so if.
If.

2538
02:28:47,160 --> 02:28:48,400
Yeah.
So if we're talking about

2539
02:28:48,400 --> 02:28:52,040
doctrine of Christ, we're we're.
That's a double standard.

2540
02:28:52,640 --> 02:28:55,880
That is a double standard, yeah.
So you gotta throw that out.

2541
02:28:57,400 --> 02:29:02,760
And then the other thing is, is
that that that it in my

2542
02:29:02,760 --> 02:29:07,080
estimation looking at this,
Griffin never uses forensics.

2543
02:29:07,840 --> 02:29:09,760
Ever.
Ever it.

2544
02:29:09,760 --> 02:29:13,800
It's never anything that that
that comes close to forensics.

2545
02:29:14,160 --> 02:29:19,520
You might say some scientific
thoughts were applied there, but

2546
02:29:19,520 --> 02:29:23,280
I wouldn't call that forensics.
The other thing I would say he's

2547
02:29:23,280 --> 02:29:25,960
been disproven over and over and
over again.

2548
02:29:25,960 --> 02:29:32,280
Not just by you, but I sat in in
in a conference and listened to

2549
02:29:32,280 --> 02:29:35,240
a former.
I can't remember what city for

2550
02:29:35,240 --> 02:29:37,000
sure.
I want to say LA back to a

2551
02:29:37,000 --> 02:29:40,520
degrading memory.
I I think he, he said somewhere

2552
02:29:40,520 --> 02:29:42,280
in California.
I want to say Los Angeles

2553
02:29:42,280 --> 02:29:46,400
County, but I could be wrong
where this guy has investigated

2554
02:29:46,400 --> 02:29:54,280
hundreds, maybe even thousands
of shootings and looked at the

2555
02:29:54,400 --> 02:30:02,320
overall account that was given
by Taylor and given by Richards

2556
02:30:03,080 --> 02:30:07,120
that it happened pretty close to
what they said, right?

2557
02:30:07,440 --> 02:30:11,960
And we would expect to find some
variance in their stories over

2558
02:30:11,960 --> 02:30:15,080
time.
If, to be honest with you, if we

2559
02:30:15,080 --> 02:30:18,120
didn't see variants, I would get
a little worried at that point.

2560
02:30:18,160 --> 02:30:20,280
I'm like, OK, they really,
really rehearsed this.

2561
02:30:20,680 --> 02:30:23,480
Now let's move on to this.
And and I'm trying to sum all

2562
02:30:23,480 --> 02:30:26,080
this up since since you said you
that was pretty much what you

2563
02:30:26,080 --> 02:30:28,880
had.
The other thing I would say is

2564
02:30:28,880 --> 02:30:34,120
that in this case especially
motive is going to be a big

2565
02:30:34,120 --> 02:30:40,880
deal, a huge deal.
We have no evidence promotive

2566
02:30:41,200 --> 02:30:43,680
from Taylor or Richards or
Brigham Young.

2567
02:30:44,080 --> 02:30:46,000
Period.
None.

2568
02:30:46,840 --> 02:30:48,800
It does not exist.
No one.

2569
02:30:48,800 --> 02:30:52,440
And in fact all of the adverse
incentives 'cause you know and

2570
02:30:52,480 --> 02:30:55,760
and of course people like
Griffin and you know Snuffer and

2571
02:30:55,760 --> 02:30:59,600
these people that are anti
Brigham they always say well man

2572
02:30:59,600 --> 02:31:03,520
Brigham died a multimillionaire
and he plundered the church you

2573
02:31:03,520 --> 02:31:07,880
know resources for personal gain
and and you know and he had all

2574
02:31:07,880 --> 02:31:11,560
this power over thousands of
lives and and had all of this

2575
02:31:12,040 --> 02:31:15,760
and it's like yeah decades
later.

2576
02:31:16,320 --> 02:31:19,680
Right dude there was no that
that was no guarantee that that

2577
02:31:19,680 --> 02:31:22,560
was gonna work out that it it
was touch and go.

2578
02:31:22,560 --> 02:31:26,680
They they were fighting for
survival for years and years.

2579
02:31:26,920 --> 02:31:29,880
They had all of the they had an
army coming after him from

2580
02:31:29,880 --> 02:31:33,400
Johnston's army that from the US
threatening their lives and

2581
02:31:33,400 --> 02:31:37,520
their safety.
They Brigham lamented all the

2582
02:31:37,520 --> 02:31:41,000
time that yeah he had all this
power and yet people didn't

2583
02:31:41,040 --> 02:31:42,760
wouldn't accept Adam God
doctrine.

2584
02:31:43,440 --> 02:31:47,120
So it's like, wait, I I thought
he was such a brutal dictator

2585
02:31:47,120 --> 02:31:49,680
and was just so dogmatic and
everybody just hopped and and

2586
02:31:49,680 --> 02:31:51,240
got in line when he told him to
do stuff.

2587
02:31:51,840 --> 02:31:56,000
The the church as a body
rejected him when he tried to

2588
02:31:56,360 --> 02:31:58,960
preach a doctrine called the
Adam God theology.

2589
02:31:59,560 --> 02:32:01,640
And there was other things that
they pushed back and just

2590
02:32:01,640 --> 02:32:03,960
wouldn't have.
And even polygamy, to be honest,

2591
02:32:04,280 --> 02:32:07,360
the vast majority of the church
membership never bought in and

2592
02:32:07,360 --> 02:32:11,640
in fact were highly critical and
against polygamy.

2593
02:32:11,880 --> 02:32:19,800
You know John Taylor died for
his religion and just I think it

2594
02:32:19,800 --> 02:32:22,440
would if I recall, it was like
within a year, just a few months

2595
02:32:22,440 --> 02:32:26,880
later the first Utah State
constitutional draft was

2596
02:32:26,880 --> 02:32:31,400
proposed and in that draft
polygamy was criminal was

2597
02:32:31,400 --> 02:32:34,240
illegalized in the constitution
of the state of Utah.

2598
02:32:35,800 --> 02:32:41,560
Now it's a it would have I, I, I
if I'm recalling correctly which

2599
02:32:41,640 --> 02:32:44,560
again memory might be degrading
but if if I recall correctly

2600
02:32:45,360 --> 02:32:47,760
that might.
If I I'm pretty sure he died

2601
02:32:47,760 --> 02:32:50,400
just shortly before that
happened cause what a heartbreak

2602
02:32:50,600 --> 02:32:53,800
like you just bled out for your
life and and was living on the

2603
02:32:53,800 --> 02:32:56,920
underground for all those years.
All of that risk all of that

2604
02:32:56,920 --> 02:33:01,600
stress And you know to preserve
this principle and then your

2605
02:33:01,600 --> 02:33:06,960
people just immediately throw it
out and and reject it like

2606
02:33:06,960 --> 02:33:11,840
official on the record 'cause it
was it was heavily supported by

2607
02:33:11,840 --> 02:33:14,360
like 90% of the population in in
Utah.

2608
02:33:14,880 --> 02:33:16,360
Yeah.
When that when that draft

2609
02:33:16,360 --> 02:33:20,200
proposal was released.
So like talk about a slap in the

2610
02:33:20,200 --> 02:33:25,960
face but yeah so they and and
Speaking of John Taylor died.

2611
02:33:25,960 --> 02:33:29,160
So maybe Brigham Young died in
relative comfort and affluence.

2612
02:33:29,880 --> 02:33:32,200
John Taylor didn't dude.
He died.

2613
02:33:32,360 --> 02:33:36,720
He died in hiding running from
the feds and from the all this

2614
02:33:36,720 --> 02:33:40,200
persecution A pauper
essentially.

2615
02:33:40,200 --> 02:33:44,920
So, so yeah, Cui Bono.
And that that really doesn't

2616
02:33:44,920 --> 02:33:47,320
line up with that narrative.
They they were trying to just

2617
02:33:47,320 --> 02:33:49,600
get all this power and and
wealth and it was all a

2618
02:33:49,600 --> 02:33:52,800
conspiracy to for personal
development and and

2619
02:33:52,800 --> 02:33:57,200
aggrandizement like get out.
Yeah, forget.

2620
02:33:57,560 --> 02:34:02,960
Yeah, no, they're.
Look, if if you're going to off

2621
02:34:02,960 --> 02:34:07,680
Joseph Smith and then your next
thought is OK, let's go find

2622
02:34:07,680 --> 02:34:10,680
maybe one of the worst places we
can find on the continent to

2623
02:34:10,680 --> 02:34:13,640
settle.
A barren desert.

2624
02:34:13,840 --> 02:34:17,200
Yeah, it does.
It does not hold water.

2625
02:34:18,840 --> 02:34:24,320
And and I just look at this over
and over and quite frankly, this

2626
02:34:24,320 --> 02:34:26,880
thing sinks faster than the
Titanic.

2627
02:34:26,960 --> 02:34:32,200
I mean, it just does not get to
where it needs to be to be taken

2628
02:34:32,200 --> 02:34:36,080
serious.
And again, the onus is not on

2629
02:34:36,080 --> 02:34:40,520
you, it's not on me, it's not on
the historical narrative, it's

2630
02:34:40,520 --> 02:34:45,680
not on historians who provide
context for this, which, by the

2631
02:34:45,680 --> 02:34:49,920
way, we have plenty of evidence
on the other side that it was

2632
02:34:49,920 --> 02:34:52,680
the mob and it was other
politicians that wanted them

2633
02:34:52,680 --> 02:34:55,160
dead.
The mob was bragging about it.

2634
02:34:55,520 --> 02:34:59,800
Yes, the mob took credit.
I mean, this is like the

2635
02:34:59,800 --> 02:35:03,800
Taliban, Like unless they didn't
actually do it, they're just

2636
02:35:03,800 --> 02:35:07,280
like trying to take the credit
for like they're they were not

2637
02:35:07,280 --> 02:35:10,760
denying it and they were
clearly, you know, celebrating,

2638
02:35:11,080 --> 02:35:15,240
you know, and Thomas Sharp of
the the Warsaw Signal was like

2639
02:35:15,240 --> 02:35:18,920
basically just exalting that
this had happened and taking the

2640
02:35:18,920 --> 02:35:21,560
credit, like sharing in the
glory, so to speak.

2641
02:35:22,200 --> 02:35:24,320
Like this was something that
they considered a massive

2642
02:35:24,320 --> 02:35:26,480
achievement.
Right, but.

2643
02:35:26,760 --> 02:35:29,680
The mob and the the anti Joseph.
And here's the other thing,

2644
02:35:29,720 --> 02:35:32,640
right?
John Taylor and Willard Richards

2645
02:35:32,920 --> 02:35:37,400
didn't go originally with Joseph
Smith and Hiram to the jail.

2646
02:35:37,400 --> 02:35:40,440
If, if memory serves, they came
in later.

2647
02:35:40,560 --> 02:35:45,640
OK, so if you want Joseph and
Hiram dead, and you know that

2648
02:35:46,200 --> 02:35:50,880
everyone's already pissed
massively because of the

2649
02:35:50,880 --> 02:35:54,040
destruction of the press,
because of all the other things,

2650
02:35:54,560 --> 02:35:58,360
why not just feed that mob?
Yeah, I think that.

2651
02:35:58,520 --> 02:36:00,000
I think John Taylor was with
them.

2652
02:36:00,000 --> 02:36:01,840
I can't remember if Willard was.
Was he OK?

2653
02:36:01,840 --> 02:36:03,680
But.
Yeah, I think he accompanied

2654
02:36:03,680 --> 02:36:05,360
them.
But but still.

2655
02:36:05,360 --> 02:36:07,360
I mean, why not find a reason to
leave?

2656
02:36:07,360 --> 02:36:10,200
Hey Joseph, I'm gonna go run
down some boys to help protect

2657
02:36:10,200 --> 02:36:11,000
you.
And then?

2658
02:36:11,040 --> 02:36:12,280
The other guys were coming and
going.

2659
02:36:12,600 --> 02:36:15,840
Yeah, and then feed that mob,
right, And be like, oh, he's in

2660
02:36:15,840 --> 02:36:18,440
there unarmed.
Good to go.

2661
02:36:18,680 --> 02:36:21,080
Why the hell?
Would you put yourself in that

2662
02:36:22,000 --> 02:36:25,440
in in that predicament?
That's just stupid.

2663
02:36:26,000 --> 02:36:31,080
Again, you have to suspend so
much common sense and so much

2664
02:36:32,880 --> 02:36:36,960
just reality to get to this
point that John Taylor and

2665
02:36:36,960 --> 02:36:40,600
Willard Richards on the Order of
Brigham Young was able to get

2666
02:36:40,600 --> 02:36:44,760
this done that, you know, I I
can't say they're not faithful

2667
02:36:44,760 --> 02:36:47,480
people, 'cause they have to
suspend a lot of common sense

2668
02:36:47,840 --> 02:36:50,520
and reasonability to get to this
point.

2669
02:36:51,680 --> 02:36:57,880
And let's be honest here too, I
would really at some point like

2670
02:36:57,880 --> 02:37:04,680
to do a deep dive to find out
exactly what, what Justin

2671
02:37:04,680 --> 02:37:08,760
Griffin's motive is.
Maybe what what's, what's,

2672
02:37:08,760 --> 02:37:15,000
what's in this for him?
Because you've got to stretch

2673
02:37:15,000 --> 02:37:17,760
awfully far to get this done and
he has not done a good job.

2674
02:37:18,080 --> 02:37:21,560
So the reward must have been
great, whatever it is or

2675
02:37:21,560 --> 02:37:26,880
whatever he thought it was.
But I I I think by this point

2676
02:37:27,680 --> 02:37:34,040
anyone who wants to see what
most likely happened there sees

2677
02:37:34,040 --> 02:37:38,840
it right and and the prevailing
narrative still wins at this

2678
02:37:38,840 --> 02:37:47,520
point which is Joseph was was
sought out by that mob one for

2679
02:37:47,520 --> 02:37:50,200
his religion 2.
For destroying the printing

2680
02:37:50,200 --> 02:37:53,880
press and that's it.
That's where it lies.

2681
02:37:54,280 --> 02:37:59,200
And until somebody and we have
we have evidence of like them

2682
02:37:59,200 --> 02:38:02,520
plotting you know the that group
plotting to kill him.

2683
02:38:02,760 --> 02:38:07,240
We know Joseph inserted young
men as spies into the ring who

2684
02:38:07,240 --> 02:38:10,880
warned him several times.
You have motive right there.

2685
02:38:11,120 --> 02:38:14,520
You just don't want to look at
the motive because it does not

2686
02:38:14,520 --> 02:38:17,360
fit your narrative Justin.
Period.

2687
02:38:17,880 --> 02:38:22,720
And until you're willing, you
look at all the evidence without

2688
02:38:22,720 --> 02:38:27,160
bias and just say what does this
point to?

2689
02:38:27,800 --> 02:38:29,760
You can bark up this tree all
day long.

2690
02:38:30,360 --> 02:38:36,760
I think the next logical step is
to say the aliens did it, I

2691
02:38:36,760 --> 02:38:39,440
think at this point.
We have to go with.

2692
02:38:39,440 --> 02:38:40,760
Funny, funny.
Bring that up.

2693
02:38:41,760 --> 02:38:45,520
If you go to the, if you go to
the uncut, round two, I I kind

2694
02:38:45,520 --> 02:38:49,240
of did that, you know, I was
just poking a little bit.

2695
02:38:50,160 --> 02:38:52,440
No, that's the truth.
I I don't see where else you go

2696
02:38:52,440 --> 02:38:56,480
at this point because his his
narrative doesn't hold water.

2697
02:38:56,880 --> 02:39:00,040
It answers all the questions
that he raises perfectly.

2698
02:39:00,560 --> 02:39:03,640
The aliens did it.
The aliens did it, absolutely.

2699
02:39:04,360 --> 02:39:06,520
I I do.
I did think of one other thing I

2700
02:39:06,520 --> 02:39:11,760
wanted to cover real quick.
So this is not a person that I

2701
02:39:11,760 --> 02:39:15,880
know I, but he apparently
somehow came across my video and

2702
02:39:15,880 --> 02:39:19,200
watched it and he he's his name
is Leif Harris.

2703
02:39:19,200 --> 02:39:22,520
He says I've heard very few, few
people speaking about these

2704
02:39:22,520 --> 02:39:24,760
events that actually know
anything about what they're

2705
02:39:24,760 --> 02:39:26,440
talking about, including Mr.
Griffin.

2706
02:39:26,720 --> 02:39:28,560
You're one who does.
Thank you very much.

2707
02:39:28,560 --> 02:39:31,520
That's very kind.
As a pertinent example, unlike

2708
02:39:31,520 --> 02:39:34,400
modern firearms which use high
speed and bullet deformation to

2709
02:39:34,400 --> 02:39:37,720
kill, historic ball ammunition,
use deflection and percussion to

2710
02:39:37,720 --> 02:39:41,920
kill, ball ammunition deflects
more easily than all other types

2711
02:39:41,920 --> 02:39:44,440
of ammunition in the high
percussion of lower speed but

2712
02:39:44,440 --> 02:39:47,320
higher mass bullets does a
significant amount of internal

2713
02:39:47,320 --> 02:39:49,440
damage.
Very few animals, for example,

2714
02:39:49,440 --> 02:39:52,520
who are haunted with traditional
ball ammunition muzzle loaders

2715
02:39:52,800 --> 02:39:57,440
from any significant distance
have exit wounds, and they

2716
02:39:57,440 --> 02:40:00,280
frequently bleed to death
internally.

2717
02:40:00,640 --> 02:40:03,320
This brings an important
corroboration to your discussion

2718
02:40:03,320 --> 02:40:05,760
of Hyrum's wounds and the
likelihood as to what what, what

2719
02:40:05,760 --> 02:40:07,080
it was that killed him,
etcetera.

2720
02:40:07,560 --> 02:40:10,600
Mr. Griffin contradicts himself
when he claims that the lack of

2721
02:40:10,600 --> 02:40:13,320
an extremely destructive exit
wound at the back of Hiram's

2722
02:40:13,320 --> 02:40:16,600
head means that the face wound
was an exit wound.

2723
02:40:16,880 --> 02:40:19,760
By that same logic, the face
wound would necessarily have to

2724
02:40:19,760 --> 02:40:22,280
have a destructive and large
pole, which it didn't.

2725
02:40:23,280 --> 02:40:24,560
Well, and also.
Yeah.

2726
02:40:25,360 --> 02:40:27,920
And so then he gets pushed back
from this guy.

2727
02:40:27,920 --> 02:40:30,080
He changed his name.
It used to be Patrick Morris but

2728
02:40:30,080 --> 02:40:32,240
he he's like, where are you
getting your information?

2729
02:40:32,560 --> 02:40:34,240
And Laif backs it up.
He says.

2730
02:40:34,240 --> 02:40:37,320
I get my information from 1
multiple sources on ballistic

2731
02:40:37,320 --> 02:40:39,520
research which I've read some of
the ballistic research.

2732
02:40:39,520 --> 02:40:42,480
Not nearly as much as this Mr.
Harris but but two.

2733
02:40:42,560 --> 02:40:45,520
My own experience shooting black
powder rifles since my youth

2734
02:40:45,520 --> 02:40:50,560
around 40 years, that dude that
carries some weight.

2735
02:40:50,760 --> 02:40:53,720
Lead balls only flatten if they
hit something very solid with

2736
02:40:53,720 --> 02:40:56,240
backing that is perpendicular to
the path of travel.

2737
02:40:56,520 --> 02:40:59,640
Otherwise they deform and
deflect all around the body and

2738
02:40:59,640 --> 02:41:02,000
someone actually did mention
something about a significant

2739
02:41:02,000 --> 02:41:03,720
distance.
The speaker indicated the first

2740
02:41:03,720 --> 02:41:06,480
shot Hiram received was, in his
opinion, shot from outside the

2741
02:41:06,480 --> 02:41:08,840
building that hit him in the
back and likely at some

2742
02:41:08,840 --> 02:41:10,840
distance.
The room is on the second story

2743
02:41:10,840 --> 02:41:13,440
of a flat area Nobody could have
hit someone shot someone in the

2744
02:41:13,440 --> 02:41:15,000
middle of the room from right
outside the building.

2745
02:41:15,000 --> 02:41:16,880
They would have had to been a
fair distance away from the

2746
02:41:16,880 --> 02:41:19,400
building, or up in a tree, or on
top of a ladder, or something

2747
02:41:19,400 --> 02:41:22,600
similar, or some distance from
the building to get an angle to

2748
02:41:22,600 --> 02:41:23,920
a shot at someone in the middle
of the room.

2749
02:41:24,160 --> 02:41:25,960
They weren't literally a few
feet away.

2750
02:41:27,080 --> 02:41:30,240
So anyway, it goes back and
forth, but I just think that

2751
02:41:30,240 --> 02:41:32,640
that brings valuable
perspective.

2752
02:41:32,640 --> 02:41:35,880
And, you know, if I had an
expert witness, like if I had

2753
02:41:35,880 --> 02:41:38,920
known this Leif Harris in
advance, I might have had him

2754
02:41:39,040 --> 02:41:42,480
maybe record a little testimony
as far as as an expert witness,

2755
02:41:42,800 --> 02:41:45,920
give his credentials, show his
experience, maybe even do a

2756
02:41:45,920 --> 02:41:49,520
couple of replicating shots to
to, you know, because this is

2757
02:41:49,880 --> 02:41:54,120
the the problem that Griffin has
is he's praying upon ignorance.

2758
02:41:54,120 --> 02:41:58,840
And the people that fall for his
lies do so out of ignorance.

2759
02:41:59,160 --> 02:42:03,440
And so it's really important to
bring actual, credible, reliable

2760
02:42:04,840 --> 02:42:09,760
expertise to this conversation.
You know, and and speaking about

2761
02:42:09,760 --> 02:42:15,440
the blood, right.
You know, I could see why there

2762
02:42:15,440 --> 02:42:18,000
wouldn't have been a lot of
blood if Hiram would have been

2763
02:42:18,000 --> 02:42:20,640
shot in the back and he was
bleeding internally, right?

2764
02:42:20,640 --> 02:42:23,160
You're not getting the same
amount of blood to your head as

2765
02:42:23,160 --> 02:42:26,320
you would normally have if that
would have been the first wound.

2766
02:42:26,880 --> 02:42:30,080
The the other thing I was
thinking about and maybe this is

2767
02:42:30,080 --> 02:42:33,040
a you know maybe this isn't
right for anyone out there who

2768
02:42:33,040 --> 02:42:35,800
knows more than I do.
I'm I'm welcome to hear it

2769
02:42:36,560 --> 02:42:39,040
again.
Most most of the ammunition was

2770
02:42:39,040 --> 02:42:40,680
ball, right?
It was ball.

2771
02:42:41,080 --> 02:42:45,400
OK, I I'm just thinking about
this from a pure physics

2772
02:42:45,400 --> 02:42:49,160
perspective here, so I I
probably don't have very much

2773
02:42:49,160 --> 02:42:52,240
room to speculate this on this
at all, but wouldn't that ball

2774
02:42:52,240 --> 02:42:56,320
kind of act like a plug in some
respects as well?

2775
02:42:57,280 --> 02:43:01,600
Not necessarily.
If it if it met obstruction and

2776
02:43:01,600 --> 02:43:06,040
didn't fully penetrate then I
could see that you know having

2777
02:43:06,040 --> 02:43:08,560
some potential but we know that
it actually did it.

2778
02:43:08,600 --> 02:43:12,040
It didn't exit but what they
what they found is that it

2779
02:43:12,040 --> 02:43:15,960
dented the back of Hiram's
pocket watch which was on his

2780
02:43:15,960 --> 02:43:18,920
right breast pocket.
So it didn't it didn't break the

2781
02:43:18,920 --> 02:43:25,240
skin but it did cause a dent And
they so they say they say that

2782
02:43:25,240 --> 02:43:28,080
that was caused by the bullet
that came in through his back.

2783
02:43:28,480 --> 02:43:31,160
So the bullet clearly passed
through.

2784
02:43:31,160 --> 02:43:33,960
Now who knows where it bounced
around and deflected after it

2785
02:43:33,960 --> 02:43:35,520
struck the back of his pocket
watch.

2786
02:43:37,360 --> 02:43:40,840
But it it certainly I don't I it
wouldn't have been a hole.

2787
02:43:40,840 --> 02:43:42,160
It wouldn't have plugged that
hole.

2788
02:43:42,520 --> 02:43:45,960
I think that the like I
presented is far more likely.

2789
02:43:46,440 --> 02:43:49,400
There had to have been some
bleeding around the hole.

2790
02:43:50,120 --> 02:43:54,400
There had to have been.
But we know that he yes, ice,

2791
02:43:54,400 --> 02:43:56,720
ice and sawdust would have.
So the sawdust would have

2792
02:43:56,760 --> 02:43:59,520
absorbed a lot of that away.
The ice would have kept it from

2793
02:43:59,520 --> 02:44:03,200
the stain from like seizing in
and becoming permanent in the

2794
02:44:03,200 --> 02:44:05,680
fabric.
And interestingly, we do have

2795
02:44:05,720 --> 02:44:09,080
all those blood stains around
his neck from the the the head

2796
02:44:09,080 --> 02:44:13,200
wounds that Hiram sustained.
And so it's not that it's not

2797
02:44:13,200 --> 02:44:15,280
that they just scrubbed harder
in the back.

2798
02:44:15,280 --> 02:44:18,640
No, it's because with he was
laying on his back, only the

2799
02:44:18,640 --> 02:44:21,440
back would have had the cold.
The benefit of that cold which

2800
02:44:21,440 --> 02:44:25,360
are resting arrest the staining
effect of blood, Whereas up here

2801
02:44:25,400 --> 02:44:26,920
they weren't able to wash out
afterward.

2802
02:44:27,440 --> 02:44:29,960
Absolutely, dude.
Good stuff.

2803
02:44:30,280 --> 02:44:32,880
I like it.
I hope everyone can see past

2804
02:44:32,880 --> 02:44:35,000
this now.
Yeah.

2805
02:44:35,600 --> 02:44:39,920
It's just it's borderline silly
at this point.

2806
02:44:41,080 --> 02:44:43,240
And.
It's just you have to.

2807
02:44:44,120 --> 02:44:47,760
It's what you want to believe if
you if you're gonna buy into

2808
02:44:47,760 --> 02:44:51,040
this, it's 'cause you want to
and you really want to not have

2809
02:44:51,040 --> 02:44:53,640
to accept polygamy.
And I get it.

2810
02:44:53,680 --> 02:44:56,040
Polygamy is not an easy
principle.

2811
02:44:56,040 --> 02:44:59,120
It's not a pleasant thing,
involves incredible amounts of

2812
02:44:59,120 --> 02:45:04,200
sacrifice.
And you know, it's it's not easy

2813
02:45:04,200 --> 02:45:09,880
by design.
But that's the only like,

2814
02:45:09,960 --> 02:45:12,040
getting back to Justin Griffin's
motive.

2815
02:45:12,440 --> 02:45:17,480
I think that this is all
basically a ruse that he was

2816
02:45:17,480 --> 02:45:22,440
trying to lay a rational seeming
foundation to lay the groundwork

2817
02:45:22,440 --> 02:45:24,880
for his eventual anti polygamy
narrative.

2818
02:45:25,440 --> 02:45:27,480
I I can't.
I mean and that's what he has

2819
02:45:27,480 --> 02:45:30,520
now on the record admitted
that's what his Part 3 is going

2820
02:45:30,520 --> 02:45:35,520
to be about is anti polygamy and
you know and and basically anti

2821
02:45:35,520 --> 02:45:38,840
Brigham and the 12 which now
becomes like you said at the

2822
02:45:38,840 --> 02:45:41,280
beginning, anti temple
ordinances, anti higher

2823
02:45:41,280 --> 02:45:43,720
principles.
And if you if you throw all of

2824
02:45:43,720 --> 02:45:46,080
that out, there is still a lot
of depth and beauty to

2825
02:45:46,080 --> 02:45:49,960
Mormonism.
But Dang, you have lost the

2826
02:45:49,960 --> 02:45:51,520
fullness.
You're just settling for the

2827
02:45:51,520 --> 02:45:54,960
partialness.
You know, I mean, I'll be

2828
02:45:54,960 --> 02:45:58,560
honest, I I guess I see that a
little worse than what you do.

2829
02:45:58,880 --> 02:46:01,640
You get rid of the higher
ordinances, right?

2830
02:46:01,640 --> 02:46:05,880
The the temple worship and
everything else you're left.

2831
02:46:06,120 --> 02:46:08,520
And this isn't a slam on
Protestantism.

2832
02:46:08,520 --> 02:46:11,120
I know a lot of great
Protestants, but you basically

2833
02:46:11,120 --> 02:46:14,120
get Protestantism with a few
extra things.

2834
02:46:14,560 --> 02:46:17,520
It's regression, not progress,
for sure.

2835
02:46:18,000 --> 02:46:20,400
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, eternal progression.

2836
02:46:20,400 --> 02:46:22,800
You know that You're taking
steps several steps back.

2837
02:46:23,880 --> 02:46:25,080
Awesome.
So.

2838
02:46:25,200 --> 02:46:28,200
Yeah, All right, dude.
Well, good stuff.

2839
02:46:28,440 --> 02:46:31,040
I'll let you get to bed now.
It's pushing 11 I think.

2840
02:46:31,240 --> 02:46:33,480
I appreciate it, brother.
Always worth it though.

2841
02:46:33,760 --> 02:46:34,960
It is.
It's always fun.

2842
02:46:35,240 --> 02:46:39,200
I I like it.
So, and I wanna say this, if

2843
02:46:39,200 --> 02:46:42,800
someone wants to really try to
present other evidence, I'm

2844
02:46:42,840 --> 02:46:43,880
here.
Give me a call.

2845
02:46:44,920 --> 02:46:46,080
I'm off.
I'm off.

2846
02:46:46,080 --> 02:46:47,600
I'm here for that too.
Dude, I'd love to.

2847
02:46:48,040 --> 02:46:51,120
You know, if you wanted to have
a debate, anybody, it's this is

2848
02:46:51,120 --> 02:46:54,720
a standing invitation.
Anybody from that side and and

2849
02:46:54,720 --> 02:46:57,960
sees that perspective love to
have that conversation.

2850
02:46:58,200 --> 02:46:59,320
Let's do it on the record
though.

2851
02:46:59,960 --> 02:47:01,640
Perfect.
All right, man.

2852
02:47:01,760 --> 02:47:04,480
Well, you have a good night.
Likewise, all right.

2853
02:47:04,560 --> 02:47:37,400
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2854
02:47:37,400 --> 02:47:38,720
Renegade podcast.