Episode #124 Plural Marriage In The Scriptures W/Jacob Vidrine

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So there's been a lot of
revisionist history that's made

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its way into Mormon circles as
of late.

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In conjunction with this, it's
often required that those

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pushing those false narratives
to either twist or flat out lie

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about what the scriptures say.
With this in mind, I want to

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address some of the lies and
wishful thinking that we see out

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there.
One of the more pernicious ideas

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is that scripture denounces the
practice of celestial plural

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marriage.
Well, today I have Jacob the

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Dream back on the podcast to
address this idea.

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Jacob and I will break down the
scriptures in context to give

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you a fuller picture of what the
scriptures have to say and not

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say about the practice of
celestial plural marriage.

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Towards the end of the podcast,
I name some names of those who

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are pushing these narratives and
also the repercussions of buying

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into these lies.
Grab a pen and paper to take

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some notes so you can push back
when you see these lies arise in

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your circles.
That's next on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
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yours today.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Jacob, what's going on, man?

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Getting closer to springtime
though, we just got probably

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with a bit more snow out here so
but it's all good.

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Did you?
Well, it, dude.

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So I was thinking about this
earlier as I was getting ready

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for this.
The first podcast I ever

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published was with you.
The first podcast I'll ever

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publish from Missouri that I've
done in Missouri will be with

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you.
I'm starting to see a little bit

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of a pattern emerge here, so.
That's awesome and

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congratulations on the move.
That's that's really awesome.

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I learned something.
I have aged like, I thought back

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to like and I even had help this
time, right, like.

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But I remember when I was moving
to the Eastern Shore of

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Maryland, I loaded that big pen,
you know, the big 35 foot pen

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ski all by myself, right?
Didn't feel it was good to go,

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man. 20 years later I you know,
like I said, I even had help.

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But I was sore for three days.
I mean, it sucked.

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I forgot how badly, how how much
moving sucks it.

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It is not fun whatsoever.
So.

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But no, it's it's been good so
far.

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We've been here.
We've been here now just under a

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month and it's it's been good.
So, well, man, are Are you ready

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to probably not make any real
friends after this episode?

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Too much, I don't think, I
think.

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Or make or make the right
friends.

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We'll make the right friends,
right?

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One, one way or another.
But I'm guessing that this will

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pretty well by the time the
episode with Taylor gets

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released and then with this one
with you.

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I just don't think I'm gonna be
on the Doctrine of Christ

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Christmas card list this year.
I don't think I'm gonna make

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that cut.
I think that's gonna be gonna be

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gone when I first hit you up
about this.

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I'm.
I'm.

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I'm.
I'm.

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I'm.
I'm I I'm already off their

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Christmas card list.
In fact I I've they they've

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thrown me in a couple of their
memes with like other people

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they perceive as like polygamy
defenders.

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Even though, you know, it was
just for because I participated

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in that debate that against the,
you know the the Joseph Smith

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polygamy deniers, you know that
got me on their crap list and

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I've, I've just kind of embraced
it at this point so.

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That's all we can do, right?
I mean, look, sometimes speaking

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the truth can be a lonely
endeavor.

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Fortunately, I got I got friends
like you and and Taylor and and

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other guys out there that that
it's not so lonely.

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But sometimes these things can
can when it causes controversy

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can can kind of make you feel a
little bit alone.

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But no, we're in good company
for sure, my man.

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So I first came to you and.
Yeah, well.

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Oh, go ahead.
Sorry.

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Oh, no, I I was just saying,
well, I'm excited to dig into

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what the scriptures teach on
plural marriage.

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You know, it's something that
it's not just about being

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opposed to somebody else, but
it's about defending truth.

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And what is the truth?
And so far in this aspect, I've

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been focused on what's the
history of, like, Joseph Smith

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teaching polygamy and what was
understood about it by the early

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brethren and what, what was
doctrinal.

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And I haven't ever done a too
much of A deep dive into the

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scriptures on this.
I mean, I've I've, I've been

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perfectly aware, I think anyone
in Mormon fundamentalism is

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aware of all the scriptural
evidence that there is a lot of

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scriptural evidence.
But what makes this so

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fascinating is there's always
more to dig into and more to

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discover when it comes to the
scriptures, when it comes to

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this or to any other topics.
So I'm excited.

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Absolutely.
You know and and.

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So, so sorry I cut you off.
No, you're good.

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You're good.
I was just gonna make the point

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and I'm just gonna call a spade
a spade here.

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But I remember back when my kids
were going to school and really

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started learning about history,
right?

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About in high school, American
history in, in particular.

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I mean, the whole reason I moved
back to Maryland was because I'm

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a complete nerd when it comes to
the founding period of America,

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right?
I've.

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I've got that dialed in pretty
good.

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And so my kids would come home
and say things like, Dad, did

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you know that the Founders were
nothing but rich, white slave

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owners.
And I would, like, drop my fork

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and like, what the hell did you
just say?

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And And so I started diving into
what the agenda was, right?

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And the agenda was there was a
group of people about the early

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1900s, the progressives, who
wanted to move past the

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Constitution.
But they understood in order to

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move past the Constitution, they
had to discredit the

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Constitution, which meant you
kind of had to discredit its

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founders, right, the people who
wrote it.

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And so they went on this tangent
of just tearing down anybody

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that had anything to do
whatsoever with the

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Constitution.
What I see in the Doctrine of

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Christ movement is exactly the
same formula right now.

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They don't go directly after
Joseph Smith.

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They just paint a different
picture of who Joseph Smith is.

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Likewise with the early brethren
there that took over after

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Joseph died.
Brigham, John Taylor, Willard

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Richards, Wilford Woodruff,
Excuse me, They're different.

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You know, they discredit them
outright.

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And so really, if you can, if
you can put into jeopardy

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Brigham and John Taylor, well
then you can kind of remake the

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Restoration into whatever you
want.

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And that's what I feel like
they're doing.

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And it's very, I don't know if
they do it consciously or if

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that just seems the path of
least resistance form, but it

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really is quite insidious and
and quite honestly, a lot of

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their histories are are, you
know, borderline flat out lies,

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right.
I don't know how else to put it.

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And when Jacob Q Gets used in
discrediting polygamy, and I

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could get it on the surface, on
a cursory reading, right, if you

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don't pay attention to things
like, you know, unless it's time

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to raise up seed or something
like that, they they glom onto

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that.
But really, that's the only one

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that the only scriptural
injunction that I think I can

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really find.
I'm sure there's someone else

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out there who's found it, found
something else.

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But that's the only scriptural
prohibition against plural

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marriage that I think I can find
anywhere.

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And that one's not really even a
a prohibition against it.

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I think what they're talking
about there is men using a holy

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principle for self gratification
and so.

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I, I, I, I, I totally agree with
you on that.

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And I think Orson Pratt actually
similarly said that he thought

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this this statement.
Jacob too, he thinks it's the

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only command on record, I
believe, in which a command was

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ever given to any branch of
Israel to be confined to a

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monogamy system.
So, you know, it's kind of the

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outlier rather than the
standard, right.

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So, and I I totally agree with
you on their view of history and

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I think what they're trying to
do, I don't want to spend too

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much time psychoanalyzing.
But I think that they have

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things they like about the
Restoration and things they

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dislike about the Restoration or
their church experience and what

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they have found in the history.
And so the way they try to the

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easy path for them is to pin
everything they like about the

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Restoration on Joseph Smith.
It all the good came from Joseph

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Smith and anything they don't
like was all of these apostles

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who came after him and it was
all their fault for anything

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that makes them uncomfortable or
which they find messy in, in

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regards to the history.
So you know, I I think it's a

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fascinating but tragic path to
go down to.

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You know decide that I need to,
I need to make Joseph Smith in

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my own image and then tarnish
the image of the the men that

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Joseph Smith was friends with
and had the highest respect for

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the prophet.
You know, they they, you know

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these were men who were willing
to die with the prophet.

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And you know to try to tarnish
their legacy and their

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characters is something that I
don't think is an honorable

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thing to do.
You know when the script you

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know especially with what the
Scriptures say about thou shalt

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not bear false witness.
So absolutely.

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Absolutely.
Yeah, that's how I can.

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You know, and I think last
episode that I had with Taylor

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where we broke down his his
debate he had with Justin

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Griffin.
It shows really the flawed, the

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flawed.
I can't even call it logic.

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I mean, towards the end I was
just like it was getting to be

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cringy right on the part of of
Griffin's part.

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And as I looked at it, I was
like, OK, we did a good job

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there.
But when I called you, I had

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something else in mind which was
let's dive into the scriptures

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and let's see what the
scriptures really either have to

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say or let's see what they have
to to, to do with polygamy here.

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And that's, that's what we're
going to do today.

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We're going to breakdown
polygamy from kind of a purely

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doctrinal, scriptural point of
view.

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Yeah, that's awesome.
And so I guess we're going to

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start with I think it's all you
know the Old Testament's

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obviously the the 1st place to
start, but then we can

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00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,280
definitely you wanted to you
told me you also wanted to

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00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,800
explore you know the New
Testament in the Book of Mormon

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and polygamy as well.
We want to take a very holistic

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look at the scriptures rather
than cherry picking because

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anyone can cherry pick verses in
the scriptures to argue whatever

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they want.
But the the big key thing is are

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you taking the totality of the
scriptural witness to support

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your view or are you trying to
find little Nuggets in the

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scriptures to you know, you know
you can twist to support

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anything you want, you know.
So I I think a lot of polygamy

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00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,600
desires actually realized how
hard their position is in

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conflict with the Old Testament
and I've seen them acknowledge

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this.
And the path that some of them

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try to take is they try to
actually say maybe we shouldn't

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even trust the Old Testament.
Is the is something that I've

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00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:42,040
seen more and more common, is an
attack on the reliability of the

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00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,640
Old Testament and wanting to
basically consider the Book of

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00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,920
Mormon as the only real
authoritative doctrinal

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00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:51,720
standard.
And that's kind of what I've

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00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,800
what I began to see.
There's some who would try to

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argue, well, maybe like the Old
Testament was corrupted to make

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00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:03,680
Jacob and Abraham be polygamous.
And I I think that's kind of

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that that's a stretch to put it
nicely, right.

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You know, it's the the plural
marriage is very integral into

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00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:15,000
the Old Testament narrative and
it's in the New in New Testament

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00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:20,960
as well where it's, you know,
the 12 tribes of Israel and you

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00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,760
know, it's it's, you know, it's
it's very, you know, integrated

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00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,560
throughout the the narratives of
the patriarchs.

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00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,400
And so there are people, though,
who don't trust the the, the Old

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00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,920
Testament, particularly Genesis.
And I was recently reading a

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00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,880
sermon by Brigham Young and he
made this comment, and I, I, I

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00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,480
resonate with it, he said.
I know there are great many in

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00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,640
the world who are so wise in
their own eyes that they are not

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00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,520
disposed to believe the account
contained in the Bible of the

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00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,560
creation of Adam and Eve, in the
Garden of Eden, the antediluvian

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00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:56,240
world, and other things.
But we profess to believe, and

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00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,440
we do or should believe these
things.

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00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,520
And this is what the Book of
Mormon actually tells us to do

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00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,560
as well.
Like the the Book of Mormon.

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00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:09,560
Never read the Book of Mormon.
You know, cover to cover quite a

250
00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:11,360
few times.
I've never seen anything in the

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00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,160
Book of Mormon that indicates
that it is what you should trust

252
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,640
rather than the Bible.
Instead, what I see in the Book

253
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:22,200
of Mormon is an emphasis on it
in the Bible are to harmonize

254
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,440
and are to work together to
teach true doctrine.

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00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,720
Yeah, and this is something you
see from the very beginning of

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00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:35,680
the Book of Mormon in in first
Nephi, where the angels talking

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00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:41,560
to Nephi about the Bible coming
forth and this is what the the

258
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,320
this is what the Angel says
about it.

259
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,680
And he said behold it.
So this is first Nephi 1323.

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00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,680
And he said, Behold, it
proceedeth out of the mouth of a

261
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,640
Jew.
And I Nephi beheld it.

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00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,760
He said unto me, The book that
thou behold us is a record of

263
00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,960
the Jews, which contains the
covenants of the Lord, which he

264
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:00,600
hath made unto the House of
Israel.

265
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,600
And it also containeth many of
the prophecies of the holy

266
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,280
prophets.
And it is a record like unto the

267
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,880
engravings, which are on the
plates of brass, save there are

268
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,680
not so many.
Nevertheless they contain the

269
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,520
covenants of the Lord, which he
hath made unto the House of

270
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,560
Israel, Wherefore they are of
great word to Gentiles.

271
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:25,160
So he's saying it's it's like
the plates of brass but with not

272
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,480
as meant much stuff on it is
what the Angel tells Nephi and

273
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,880
and so going on later on in that
chapter verse 40 he said And the

274
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:37,280
Angel spake unto he saying These
last records which thou seen

275
00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,640
among the Gentiles shall
establish the truth of the first

276
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,240
which are of the 12 apostles of
the Lamb, and shall make known

277
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,200
the plain and precious things
which have been taken away from

278
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,440
them and shall be make known to
all kindred tongues and people.

279
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,960
That the Lamb of God is the Son
of the eternal Father and the

280
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:54,840
Savior of the world.
And that all men must come into

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00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,600
them or they cannot be saved.
So again, it's about

282
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,920
establishing the truth of the
first records and you know and

283
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,360
to and makes knowledge about the
things that were taken away from

284
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,480
the Bible rather than this idea
that some have is that a bunch

285
00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:13,000
of false things were added to
the Bible, if that makes sense.

286
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,120
So you know this is something,
you know the reliability of the

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00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,000
Bible is something that the
early Latter Day Saints were big

288
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:22,560
on.
So I I think that's just

289
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,320
something that should be a
standard.

290
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,400
If you accept the Book of Mormon
as a historic, as a historical

291
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,080
record, you got to also accept
the validity of the Bible as

292
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,400
well, in my opinion.
Absolutely.

293
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,680
Let me say this real quick,
because OK, let's just go with

294
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,760
their argument for a second.
The Old Testament was corrupted,

295
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:42,920
right?
You can't trust it.

296
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,160
To my knowledge, Joseph Smith
retranslated it, right?

297
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,960
And to my knowledge, none of the
parts that deal with plural

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00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,480
marriage were altered
whatsoever.

299
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,520
So if if you're gonna say that
that the Bible's in error, OK,

300
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,680
fine, go pick up the Joseph
Smith translation.

301
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:02,600
Unless you don't trust Joseph
Smith too.

302
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,760
Yeah, that that's a good point.
That's that's another thing that

303
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,119
could be said to argue against
their position.

304
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,359
And I think they try to say that
there are certain things in the

305
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,079
in the Joseph Smith translation
relating to polygamy that are

306
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,480
changed.
But in we'll cover at least one

307
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,040
of those key Old Testament
verses that is changed and it

308
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,480
actually basically states the
exact same thing.

309
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,640
It's just clarified.
So and that's first Kings 15-5

310
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,200
in in both the IT, it
essentially states the same

311
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,920
thing.
That verse is so problematic to

312
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,680
polygamy deniers that Rob
Fotheringham, who's one of the

313
00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:47,560
key guys in a YouTube who makes
videos to on the in that

314
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,880
movement.
He was he would not quote the

315
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,200
entirety of that verse.
He was so scared of what that

316
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,720
verse says in in one of his
videos on trying to argue that

317
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:03,960
DNC 132 was fabricated.
He was he, he would quote parts

318
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:08,840
of the Joseph Smith translation
of of First Kings 15-5.

319
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,600
But you would not quote the
entirety of that verse because

320
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:16,400
the entirety of that verse is,
is that polygamy is OK and that

321
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,440
David did not sin except in the
matter of Uriah.

322
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,600
I mean it's it says that he
repented of his sins and except

323
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,960
in the matter of Uriah and there
he was cursed.

324
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:30,760
So you know, that's just an
important verse.

325
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,960
So I guess if we're going to
talk about, you know, going back

326
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,600
to the Old Testament, I think we
probably should start with the

327
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,560
story of Abraham, right?
Because that's, you know, the

328
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,120
father of the faithful and
that's, he's the, you know,

329
00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:47,440
we're an Abrahamic faith.
And so, you know, Abraham and

330
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,440
his life and you know, his
practices is something that

331
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,880
should weigh in the discussion
of plural marriage in the

332
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,240
Scriptures.
And so Joseph Smith said that

333
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:04,400
wrote wrote an editorial on on
government in the Times and

334
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,840
Seasons in July of 1842, and
he's had this statement in it

335
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,960
about Abraham.
He said Abraham was guided in

336
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,960
all his family affairs by the
Lord, was conversant with

337
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,840
angels, and by the Lord was told
where to go and when to stop,

338
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,160
and prospered exceedingly in all
that he put his hand unto.

339
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,440
And it was because he and his
family obeyed the counsels of

340
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,400
the Lord.
Now does that sound like

341
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,440
something that some people would
try to say that Abraham was just

342
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,200
living in the culture of his
day, and he was a polygamist,

343
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,240
but God wasn't OK with it.
Does that sound like Joseph

344
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,720
Smith was OK with that, agreed
with that position?

345
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,920
Yeah, of course not.
You know, if Abraham's walking

346
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,040
and talking with God, you know
in in all throughout the story

347
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,360
of Abraham, you know God's
having communion with him.

348
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,400
If polygamy was wrong, you would
think that God would have

349
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,800
something, you know, something
to say about it, you know.

350
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,120
And instead when you read the
story, you find that God

351
00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:09,800
actually blesses and offers
blessings to them after they've

352
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,800
their enter into plural
marriage.

353
00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:13,760
You know in in the marriage with
Hagar.

354
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:19,560
And so WW Phelps also recalled
that Joseph Smith talked about

355
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,760
Abraham's wives being something
that was given by revelation,

356
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,680
just as that's editorial said
that Abraham was guided in his

357
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,400
family affairs by the Lord.
So WW Phelps, in a letter to

358
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:36,280
Brigham Young on August 12th,
1861, he was discussing early

359
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,160
plural marriage revolution that
was to command the Brethren to

360
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,440
intermarry with the Lamanites.
And they were discussing that.

361
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,560
And then he he said that you
know, how are we as married men

362
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,840
supposed to intermarry with the
Lamanites?

363
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,840
And he recalled that Joseph
replied instantly, in the same

364
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,640
manner that Abraham took Hagar
and Katurna, and Jacob took

365
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,280
Rachel, Bill, Hath and Zipla by
revelation.

366
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,280
The Saints of the Lord are
always directed by revelation.

367
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,640
Of course, you know.
Right, Joseph.

368
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:09,880
Joseph Yeah.
So it's.

369
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,160
We're we're gonna practice
plural marriage.

370
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,880
That's how we're gonna
intermarry with them.

371
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,320
Yeah, and there's.
So that revelation shows up late

372
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:23,360
by WW Phelps, but there's a
early witness to it in that a

373
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:26,800
guy anti Mormon at that time
references that Joseph had

374
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,480
received a revelation to
intermarry with the Lamanites.

375
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,680
It's a there's a contemporary
source, an antagonistic source

376
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,840
and then you have the later text
of it that WW Phelps kind of

377
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,800
preserves.
So that's, you know, just a

378
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,640
tangent on that.
And so the thing I would point

379
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,360
out though, with the stories in
Genesis is that what the Book of

380
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:49,840
Mormon tells us is that it's
incomplete, that there's a lot

381
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:56,160
more to the stories than what is
recorded in in in the Old

382
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,680
Testament, you know that there
was saved, that there's not so

383
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,440
many.
And so there's hints, though,

384
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,080
throughout the different verses
that you know, there was more

385
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,960
plural marriage than, you know,
even what we might be aware of.

386
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:14,360
So in the story of Abraham in
Genesis 25, six, it references

387
00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:16,880
that Abraham had multiple
concubines.

388
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,840
It says unto the sons of the
concubines which Abraham had.

389
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,520
Abraham gave gifts and sent them
away from Isaac, his son, while

390
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,720
he which while he had lived
eastward in the east country.

391
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,480
So he said that he had children,
multiple children with the

392
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,760
concubines.
And we don't really have a full

393
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,720
history of that.
So, you know, and so there is a

394
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,200
situation in the story of
Abraham where if God was to tell

395
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,920
him that polygamy was wrong,
this would have been the place

396
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,240
to do it.
And that was when Hagar fled

397
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,520
because of Sarah's Sarah's
treatment of her right and she

398
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,880
flees and an Angel appears to
her and and well, it says the

399
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,240
Angel Yahweh.
Some argue some some

400
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,480
translations argue that the Lord
she actually had a visitation of

401
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:10,360
the Lord in that experience and
and that's in some of those

402
00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:16,880
translations of Genesis 1613 the
new standard version translates

403
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,680
that as so Hagar named the Lord
who spoke under you are my Elroy

404
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,000
for she said have I really seen
God and remained alive after

405
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,960
seeing him so that's a woman in
plural marriage having a

406
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:34,320
visitation of the Lord and some
if if you get into textual

407
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,000
criticism of the Old Testament.
I've I've seen people who are

408
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,840
into that say that somebody
later on and took a lot of these

409
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,960
instances where the Lord
appeared to people in the Old

410
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,280
Testament and they were
uncomfortable with that and they

411
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:54,160
put the Angel Yahweh appeared
rather than just you know, the

412
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,960
Lord appearing.
So the Angel of the Lord

413
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,520
appeared rather than the Lord
appearing.

414
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:02,200
So there's different scholars
who comment on that and it says

415
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,120
it's and Theodore Lewis
commented on that passage,

416
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,320
commenting on Elroy and how it
should be interpreted as both

417
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:15,200
metaphorical, as in God favoring
Hagar and physical as in Hagar

418
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,560
seeing God in a non lethal way.
And you know that was the big

419
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,600
concern in the Old Testament is
can I see God and live?

420
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,480
So again going on to the story,
so this is in Genesis 16.

421
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,560
Does the Angel tell her to not
go back to polygamy and that you

422
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,200
know you should marry someone
else?

423
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,760
If you read that story, the
Angel tells Hagar that she

424
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,400
should return and continue to
live plural marriage.

425
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,080
So Genesis 1619 says, And the
Angel the Lord said unto her,

426
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,960
return to thy mistress and
submit thyself under her hands.

427
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,000
So And then we know that Abraham
was blessed to the Lord.

428
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,160
And this is in Genesis 26 verses
4:00 and 5:00.

429
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,360
And I will this is the Lord
saying, I will make thy seed to

430
00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:01,760
multiply as the stars of heaven.
I will give unto thee thy seed

431
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,920
all these countries, and in thy
seed shall all the nations of

432
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,880
the earth be blessed, because
that thou that Abraham obeyed my

433
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,080
voice, and kept my charge, my
commandments, my statutes, and

434
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,400
my laws.
So does that sound like Abraham

435
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,360
was disobeying God's law and
living little marriage?

436
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:21,560
I I don't think so.
No, no.

437
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,720
And and you know, we just, we
just went on a a tiny little

438
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,080
tangent there where we talked
about was it the Lord that

439
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,440
appeared to Hagar or was it an
Angel of the Lord that appeared

440
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:31,760
to Hagar.
Guess what?

441
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,280
At the end of the day, doesn't
matter, right?

442
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,520
For this, for this argument, for
this conversation, right.

443
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,800
Whether the Lord says go down
and talk to her or, you know

444
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,920
what, I'm gonna go do this
myself, doesn't matter.

445
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:50,160
Same message is conveyed, right?
And so their argument from an

446
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,600
Old Testament standpoint, sure,
it's weak, right?

447
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,680
And I get what they'll say is
like, 'cause they're going kind

448
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,400
of going down these roads, well,
that was the Old Testament.

449
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,920
That's the Old covenant.
We're working on a different

450
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,040
covenant now, which I would
contend defeats the purpose of a

451
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,280
restoration.
But whatever floats your boat

452
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:09,680
there.
Well, it seems like one of the

453
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,000
beautiful things with the
Restoration is it's about taking

454
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,240
both covenants that the, you
know, a lot of Christians kind

455
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,720
of throw out the Old Testament.
But Joseph Smith and you know,

456
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,760
the other early brethren of the
Restoration taught that we need

457
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,480
to take both the Old Testament
and the New Testament.

458
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,640
You know, it's all the word of
God and all should be taken

459
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,440
seriously by us.
So, you know, one of the one of

460
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:37,160
their arguments against DNC 132
is they say DNC 132 says that

461
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,720
Isaac was a polygamist.
But there's nothing in Genesis

462
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,960
to indicate that Isaac was a
polygamist.

463
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,880
I'm I'm sure anyone who's
encountered a a person who's

464
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:52,120
trying to explain why they
reject DNC 132 that as as being

465
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:55,520
legitimate revelation that that
will be one of the things they

466
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,600
mentioned.
So I actually, you know there's

467
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,640
actually a couple verses like I
said, we don't have the full

468
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,360
story in Genesis.
There's a couple verses that

469
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:10,480
imply that Isaac had a larger
family than what we are told in

470
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:17,520
the story of Jacob and Esau.
So in Isaac's blessing to Jacob

471
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,280
and Jesses 2729 it states let
people serve thee and nations

472
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,160
bow down to thee, thee Lord over
thy brethren, and let thy

473
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,320
mother's sons bow down to thee.
Cursed be everyone that cursed

474
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,840
thee, and blessed be he that
blessed thee.

475
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,240
So it seems there's a reference
to him having other brethren,

476
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,000
not just one brother and thy
mother's son, so multiple other

477
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,800
sons than Esau.
So that is a clear indication

478
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,160
that you know that Isaac had a
larger family than just Jacob

479
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,760
and Esau.
And then additionally, some

480
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,520
translations of Genesis 2614
state that Isaac had quote

481
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,040
possessions of flocks and herds
and a great household.

482
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,520
So that's an interesting
statement, A great household.

483
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,680
I wonder if having lots of, you
know, multiple wives and

484
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,680
children would be considered a
great household, or only having

485
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,840
two children and one wife would
be considered a great household.

486
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,880
So I.
I got a question for you, Jacob.

487
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:19,800
OK.
Why we're talking about the Old

488
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,960
Testament.
How normal was it during Old

489
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,240
Testament times?
Right past Abraham?

490
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:27,320
Once you get into the
establishment of the Kingdom of

491
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,200
of Israel, how commonplace is
plural marriage in those days?

492
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:37,560
I I won't be able to say because
I'm I'm, I, I I don't have those

493
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,000
details.
But I would say it's common

494
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,800
enough that the Law of Moses it
gives multiple provisions

495
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,680
regarding plural marriage and
and you know multiple different

496
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,920
places.
There's the stick.

497
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:53,760
Yeah.
Do you want do you want to go

498
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,840
into those or or do I keep
focusing on Genesis?

499
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,960
First, let's let's keep focusing
on Genesis.

500
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,240
But I wanted to make a point
here, which is the absence of

501
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,040
someone coming right out and
saying, and this is, this is

502
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,760
Isaac, and here is all of his
wives, right?

503
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,560
They wouldn't do that if it was
the norm, right?

504
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,600
It wouldn't say, you know, if
it's not an outlier, they're not

505
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,600
gonna make reference to it.
It's normalized, right?

506
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,440
And so a lot of times what what
these folks will do is like, why

507
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,520
is it we only have accounts of
where polygamy goes wrong in the

508
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,200
Bible?
Well, 'cause those are probably

509
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:32,960
the outliers, right?
Those are.

510
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,240
Those are the exceptions to the
rule, not the rule themselves.

511
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:37,600
Does that make sense?
Yeah.

512
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,800
And I I I think that's a very
good point to make.

513
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,560
And I think you know the stories
that we're told in in Genesis

514
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,680
are, you know, it's it's not
about a comprehensive history of

515
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,680
each person's life, but it's
about stories that were

516
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,800
preserved because they related
to the, you know, the founding

517
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,960
of Israel.
And these were like important,

518
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:03,200
you know, historical aspects to,
you know, with the story of

519
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,960
Ishmael and and Hagar, you have
to have that story to explain

520
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,160
these other peoples, right.
That that came from Hagar and

521
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,280
you know that, you know you
gotta look at the context.

522
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,440
You know why different things
are included.

523
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,160
You know and it you know, I
think you're absolutely right

524
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:24,400
that there's a normative aspect
of it where you know where where

525
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,480
it's so normal that it isn't,
you know always mentioned in

526
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,120
detail.
So when we, when we come down to

527
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,200
Jacob, I think that's where
it's, you know, very explicitly

528
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,040
polygamous where these women are
referred to as wives explicitly

529
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,560
in the text.
You know, there's a couple

530
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,880
places where Hagar is, I think,
but I think in the case of

531
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,040
Jacob, there's a lot more.
And you know, you read that

532
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,840
story and people say, well, he
was tricked into it, you know,

533
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,960
and and that doesn't mean that
it was of God.

534
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,320
But even if he was tricked into
marrying the the wrong sister,

535
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,840
you know, he could have just
made do with that and just been

536
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,760
accepted.
I'm a monogamist.

537
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,880
I need to be faithful to the one
woman that I'm married to.

538
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,240
But no, he he, he knew that
according to the provisions of

539
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,960
the law that he was allowed to,
you know, still marry the woman

540
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,280
that he wanted to marry, even if
he ended up actually marrying

541
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:18,440
someone else.
Right.

542
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,800
So I'm not going to go too much
detail into the story of Jacob,

543
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,960
but there is one verse that's I
think very significant and it's

544
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:32,160
the story of, you know, it's a
jest is 30 or 17 through 18 and

545
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,760
God hearken and Delaya and she
concede and bear Jacob the fifth

546
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,120
son.
And Leia said God hath given me

547
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,880
my hire because I have given my
maiden to my husband.

548
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,000
And she called his name
Issachar.

549
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:48,600
So he said she's explicitly
saying that God's blessing me

550
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,480
with children because I gave my
maiden as a wife to my husband.

551
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:57,560
And so at the October 1869
general conference of the

552
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,640
church, there was some hardcore
sermons that were given on

553
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,480
plural marriage in defense of
plural marriage And Orrison

554
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,160
Pratt gave a good sermon.
George A Smith gave a good

555
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,120
sermon.
George George Cucan gave a good

556
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,720
sermon.
And in Orrison Pratt's sermon he

557
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,400
he mentioned the specific verse,
and he said another proof that

558
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,480
God did not disapprove of a man
having more wives than one is to

559
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,520
be found in the fact that
Rachel, after she'd had been a

560
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,240
long time Baron, prayed to the
Lord to give her seed.

561
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,000
The Lord hearkened to her cry
and granted her prayer.

562
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,400
And when she received seed from
the Lord by her polygamist

563
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,880
husband, she exclaimed.
The Lord hath hearkened to me

564
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,640
and have answered my prayer.
Now, do you think the Lord would

565
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,680
have done this if he considered
polygamy a crime?

566
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,240
Would he have hearkened to the
prayer of this woman if Jacob

567
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,200
had been living with her in
adultery?

568
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,040
So that story is another
evidence of, you know, what,

569
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,040
plural marriage being something
that is blessed by God.

570
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,240
So you know, there's, you know,
I I think there's nothing

571
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,120
contextually in those stories
that would indicate that God

572
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,680
disapproved of plural marriage,
except if someone is like

573
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,600
wanting to literally read into
it.

574
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,400
Look at these bad things that
happen in these stories.

575
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,920
Therefore, plural marriage is,
you know, is a bad thing.

576
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,040
Well, I I heard the same
argument.

577
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,160
Somebody pointed this out once.
You know, look at the story of

578
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,160
Cain and Abel having two
children and one of the children

579
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,600
murdered the other one.
That must show that having more

580
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,400
than one child is, you know,
something that the Lord doesn't

581
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,760
want us to have.
You know is what someone said

582
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,680
tongue in cheek about that.
So we come down to the law of

583
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,000
Moses.
And you know, there's, you know,

584
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,400
the argument that Moses was a
polygamist.

585
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:48,120
But I think what's very explicit
is in Exodus, the allowance for

586
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,760
polygamy in Exodus 21, he said
in verse 10, if you take him

587
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,800
another wife, her food, her
raiment and her duty of marriage

588
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,520
shall not be diminished.
So that's not forbidding a man

589
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,120
taking another wife, but it's
saying that if you take another

590
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,440
wife, you should not neglect the
wife you already have.

591
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,719
So.
So that's another place in

592
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:17,280
Deuteronomy 21 verse 15.
If a man's in polygamy and he

593
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,440
has, you know, one wife he
favors and the other one he

594
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,280
doesn't, and they have both have
children, it says.

595
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,440
And if the first born son be
hers that was hated, then it

596
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,960
shall be when he maketh his sons
to inherit that which he hath.

597
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,040
He may not make the son of the
beloved first born before the

598
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,719
son of the hated, which is
indeed the first born.

599
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,320
But he shall acknowledge the son
of the hated for the first born

600
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,800
by giving him a double portion
of all that he hath.

601
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,320
Where he is the beginning of his
strength, the right of the first

602
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,199
born is his.
So that's saying that if you

603
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,560
know if a, you know an
unfortunate situation of

604
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:54,080
polygamy where the man is has a
favorite wife and he's biased

605
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,920
against the first wife and he
prefers the, you know, he has

606
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,680
favoritism going with the son of
the second wife, he cannot

607
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:07,840
disinherit the first son from
having his, you know, having his

608
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,680
birthright basically you know
that.

609
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,800
So it's it's that shows that
polygamy had to be pretty, you

610
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,120
know had to be practiced at such
a common enough level that the

611
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,720
Lord is making this specific
provision for us, this kind of

612
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:27,480
situation in polygamy and Orson
Pratt common, yeah.

613
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,400
He's basically trying to
regulate it a little bit, right?

614
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,360
The Lord's telling you this is
how you live this, right?

615
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,760
So it's not don't live it.
It it's not even it's not even.

616
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,480
Well, if you're going to live
it, do this.

617
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:40,680
No.
The Lord's just giving you the

618
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,480
guidelines, right?
So the Lord doesn't seem to be

619
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,680
interested in this not taking
place.

620
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,400
Quite the opposite.
Yeah.

621
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,680
And and one one thing Orson
Pratt mentioned about this was

622
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,200
he said that in according to you
know the Law of Moses, you know

623
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,840
bastards.
You know, we're not to have, you

624
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,600
know, different, you know,
certain rights in the among the

625
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,720
children of Israel.
And so if if, well, if one of

626
00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:09,240
these children was illegitimate
because a polygamy, polygamy is

627
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:13,480
illegitimate, then you know they
wouldn't have, you know any such

628
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,120
rights.
But clearly this statement is

629
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,040
indicating that both the
children of the first child, the

630
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,840
first woman, married, as well as
children from previous women.

631
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,440
You know, subsequent women would
be considered legitimate in the

632
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,360
eyes of God.
And so there is the one verse

633
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,720
that some some people use in in
Deuteronomy to argue against

634
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:36,800
polygamy.
If you remember Deuteronomy

635
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:42,200
1717, where thou shalt a King's
king, shall not multiply wives

636
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,520
themselves.
But when you look at that in

637
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,920
context, it's talking about he
shall, he shall not multiply

638
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,160
wives himself that his heart
turn away, neither shall he

639
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,880
greatly multiply to himself
silver and gold.

640
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,360
He shall not.
In the previous verse you should

641
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,120
not, you know it.
It forbids multiplying horses.

642
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,960
So it's it's about keeping,
abusing his authority right to,

643
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,600
you know, increase, you know,
having a great amount of horse,

644
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,240
having a great amount of wives,
etcetera.

645
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,760
And there is actually some
textual arguments that

646
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:24,360
Deuteronomy 17 could have been a
later and and a later addition

647
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,200
to Deuteronomy that it might not
have been originally.

648
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,760
That the case is made by some.
That when you look at

649
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,000
Deuteronomy 17, it's going
through the story of Solomon and

650
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,000
all the things that Solomon did
wrong and writing those things

651
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,600
back into the law as things that
kings should not do.

652
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,640
And so the so the argument is
that there's a decent

653
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:52,040
possibility that that was a
later edition rather than an

654
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,960
original part of the Law of
Moses.

655
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:59,840
So obviously you know the most
common place, but they'll say,

656
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,840
OK, polygamy's permitted.
Where is it commanded?

657
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,760
You Don't you know?
Where do you see it?

658
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,640
Commanded in the Old Testament
is what they will inevitably say

659
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,200
if you're having a goodwill
discussion about it.

660
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,200
And obviously you know the verse
that is the most commonly cited

661
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,280
for polygamy being commanded in
the Old Testament is in the case

662
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,520
of liberate marriage in
Deuteronomy 25 verse 5, where it

663
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,760
says if a brethren lived
together and one of them dies

664
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:32,040
and has no child, the wife of
the dead shall not marry without

665
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,960
unto a stranger, but her
husband's brother shall go into

666
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,880
her and take her to wife and
perform the duty of a husband's

667
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,480
brother unto her.
So this concept of raising up

668
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,520
seed for your brother so that he
will have an heir in in the

669
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:46,880
House of Israel, this is
something that the early Mormons

670
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,360
actually were big on.
They talked about this quite a

671
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,480
bit and, you know, when
discussing plural marriage in in

672
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,640
the early Utah period and George
Buchanan like, had a son that

673
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,280
that lived to adulthood but
didn't have any children.

674
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,800
And he's like, I'm going, I want
my other son to marry this,

675
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:09,840
marry a woman for time and have
her sealed for eternity to my

676
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,080
son.
And then the children will

677
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,200
represent, you know, the son
that died.

678
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,800
And this actually goes all the
way back to Hiram Smith.

679
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:25,280
Where Hiram Smith explicitly
referenced this as a reason for

680
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,720
why polygamy would be restored
when he read on the same day

681
00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:35,920
that he read DNC 132 to the
Naboo High Council, he said the

682
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,120
so this is recorded in Franklin
D Richard's scriptural items

683
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,960
notebook.
He he recorded that Hiram Smith

684
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,240
taught that, quote, the law that
a man shall take his brother's

685
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:50,720
wife and raise up Sedan to him,
as it was in Israel, must be

686
00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:55,200
again established.
So, you know, Joseph and Hiram

687
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,720
are going through the Old
Testament and looking at the

688
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:00,800
scriptural evidence for
polygamy.

689
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,760
And they're not just looking at
it.

690
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,440
They're using it to try to
prepare the Saints to accept,

691
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,160
you know, these deeper doctrines
that would go against their

692
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,040
traditions, right?
Right.

693
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,720
So I guess, you know, I guess
now is a good time to talk about

694
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:22,080
David and Solomon because
that's, you know, a hot topic

695
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,640
with, you know, how does that,
you know, how's what's in the

696
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,200
Old Testament fit with Jacob
chapter 2.

697
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,040
So you know, Jacob chapter 2
says that the whole David and

698
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,320
Solomon truly had many wise and
porcubines.

699
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,920
Which thing was an which thing
was abominable before me saith

700
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,600
the Lord.
And in contrast to this DNC 132

701
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:48,440
says in verse 39, David's wives
and concubines were given unto

702
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:52,240
him of me by the hand of Nathan,
my servant, and others of the

703
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:54,560
prophets who had the keys of
this power.

704
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,440
And in none of these things did
he sin against me, save in the

705
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,560
case of Uriah and his wife.
And therefore he has fallen from

706
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:05,400
his exaltation and received his
portion, and he shall not

707
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,600
inherit them out of the Lord,
out of the world, for I gave

708
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,640
them to another, saith the Lord.
So you know, they they highlight

709
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,120
these verses as a contradiction.
But these are not actually a

710
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,840
contradiction when you look at
the previous verse, which also

711
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,320
indicates that Solomon actually
married certain wives without

712
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,200
being authorized of God and
sinned in doing so.

713
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:31,160
So verse 38 of DNC 132 says
David also received many wives

714
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,680
and concubines and also Solomon
and Moses my servants as also

715
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,840
many others of my servants from
the beginning of the creation

716
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,720
into this time.
And in nothing did they sin save

717
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:42,840
in these those things which they
received not of me.

718
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:49,320
So the Bible actually holds the
key to harmonizing Jacob 224

719
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,520
with DNC 132 verse 39 regarding
King David, and it's found in

720
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:59,880
First Kings 15 verse five.
It states the whole David did

721
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:04,000
that which was right in the eyes
of the Lord and turn not aside

722
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,040
from anything that he commanded
them all the days of his life,

723
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:11,280
save only in the matter of Uriah
the Hittite.

724
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:17,200
So it seems pretty explicit
there that David's only grievous

725
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,920
grievous sin to the Lord was in
the case of committing adultery

726
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,160
with Uriah's wife and having
Uriah murdered to try to cover

727
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,840
up that adultery.
So, you know, so there's so the

728
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:34,240
polygamy deniers would try to
say first kings 15-5 and the JST

729
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,160
corrects this.
And I say, why don't you quote

730
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,920
the whole verse to me instead of
just a tiny portion of the

731
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:45,200
verse.
So they'll quote that that that

732
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,680
David repented of the evil all
the days of his life, save only

733
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,560
in the manner of Uriah the
Hittite wherein the Lord cursed

734
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,600
him.
But that's the later half of the

735
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:57,800
Joseph Smith translation.
The whole verse says the because

736
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,640
David did right in the eyes of
the Lord and turned not aside

737
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,280
from all that he commanded him
to sin against the Lord, but

738
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,720
repented of the evil all the
days of his life, save only in

739
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:12,720
the matter of Uriah the Hittite
wherein the Lord cursed him.

740
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,760
So fundamentally he's saying
David did right in the eyes of

741
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,960
the Lord.
He didn't turn aside from the

742
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,200
commandments, only in this case
of Uriah the Hittite.

743
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,200
And his sin was so grievous that
even though he tried to repent

744
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,920
of it, he was cursed and he was,
you know, cursed for it, you

745
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,080
know so.
So I think that you can't argue

746
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,120
that Joseph Smith translation
changes that verse, if that

747
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:37,200
makes sense.
Right.

748
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,040
Let me say this, right, going
back to 15-5 here in in the KGV,

749
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,680
you know, it says that David did
that which was right in the eyes

750
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,600
of the Lord, and turned aside
not from any of the things that

751
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,160
he commanded him all the days of
his life, save, you know, the

752
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,240
the stuff with Uriah the
Hittite.

753
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:57,520
If David did everything the Lord
commanded him, wouldn't that

754
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,200
kind of insinuate that he
probably commanded him in terms

755
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,560
of plural marriage as well?
Oh, absolutely.

756
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,200
I I think that's a fair
inference from that verse if

757
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,400
he's saying, you know, David was
commanded by the Lord in the

758
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,280
things that he did.
So here's another key verse

759
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,680
regarding the the story of
David.

760
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:22,560
So second Samuel 12 verses 7
through 11, wherein the Prophet

761
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,880
of the Lord delivers a message
to King David once he's fallen.

762
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:31,040
Do you want to read that?
Yeah, Second Samuel 12.

763
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:32,920
What?
Verses 7 through 11.

764
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,960
OK, And Nathan said to David,
Thou art the man.

765
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,880
Thus saith the Lord God of
Israel, I anointed thee king

766
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,960
over Israel, And I delivered
thee out of the hand of Saul.

767
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,960
And I gave thee my master, thy
master's house, and thy master's

768
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,720
wives into thy bosom, and gave
thee the House of Israel and of

769
00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:53,440
Judah.
And if that had been too little,

770
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,240
I would, moreover, have given
unto thee such and such things.

771
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,560
Wherefore thou hast despised the
commandment of the Lord to do

772
00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,520
evil in his sight.
Thou hast killed Uriah the

773
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,440
Hittite with the sword, and has
taken his wife to be thy wife,

774
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:13,080
and has slain him in the with
the sword of the children of

775
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,680
Ammon.
Now therefore the sword shall

776
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,480
never depart from thine house be
because thou hast despised me,

777
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,440
and has taken the wife of Uriah
the Hittite, to be thy thy wife.

778
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,880
Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I
will raise up evil against thee

779
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,280
out of thine own house, and I
will take thy wives before thine

780
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,560
eyes, and give them unto thy
neighbor.

781
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:38,080
And he shall lie with thy wives
in the sight of this Son.

782
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,360
You know that that's a pretty
strong condemnation there so.

783
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,360
But I think what's interesting
about the condemnation is that

784
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,880
the Lord says that he gave him
certain blessings.

785
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,800
He said, Thus, saith the Lord
God of Israel, I gave thee thy

786
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,680
master's house and thy master's
wives into thy bosom, and gave

787
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:58,640
thee the House of Israel and of
Judah.

788
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,160
And if that had been too little,
I would have more.

789
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,680
I would, moreover, have given
unto thee such and such things.

790
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,480
So Such and such things is a
Hebrew phrase indicating more of

791
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,280
what he wanted.
If.

792
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,480
And so this would have been if
you would have used it for a

793
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,440
righteous purchase.
So Lord, says, I gave thee all

794
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,280
these things.
I would have given you even more

795
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,640
if you had been righteous.
So, because David became wicked

796
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,240
in his doings.
Thus saith the Lord, I will take

797
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,720
thy thy wives before thy knight,
give them unto thy neighbor, and

798
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:32,840
he shall lie with thy wives in
the sight of this son.

799
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,800
So it's you know the Lord gave
David his wives.

800
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:41,280
That's very explicit there in
verse verse eight of Second

801
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:46,120
Samuel, chapter 12.
And you know, I I don't see how

802
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,440
you can get around that.
I think that that's very

803
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,240
explicit.
I think First Kings 15-5 is very

804
00:46:52,240 --> 00:46:54,640
explicit.
I think the overwhelming

805
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,240
evidence is that the Old
Testament is a pro polygamy

806
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:02,120
book.
And not only is a pro human

807
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,840
polygamy, but it God is so
comfortable with polygamy in the

808
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,600
Old Testament that he even
refers to himself as a

809
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:15,920
polygamist and in a metaphor in
both Ezekiel as well as in

810
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,720
Jeremiah.
And he references, you know,

811
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:21,920
when the Kingdom of Judah splits
into two kingdoms, he

812
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,320
references, you know, I'm it's
like I'm married to two women.

813
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,280
And so if you really think God
would use that analogy if he was

814
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:32,560
so against plural marriage.
Right.

815
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,320
I don't think he would.
Yeah, no.

816
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,000
If if if God Himself, if God the
Father is using that

817
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,360
terminology, that's a pretty
that's a pretty damning

818
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,240
statement to to those who want
to deny it and say that it has

819
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:52,200
no place within Mormonism.
Yeah so so the verses Ezekiel 23

820
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:58,440
four it's it's it's an analogy
of two women and the older was

821
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:03,560
named Ohala and their sister was
named Ohala Beba, Ohala Beba,

822
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,560
excuse me for butchering that
they became mine and gave birth

823
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,720
to sons and daughters that's
what I did is Ohala is Samaria

824
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:15,920
and Oleba is Jerusalem.
So God's saying these two women

825
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,040
in this analogy are the kingdoms
of Samaria and the Kingdom of

826
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,840
Jerusalem.
And then in Jeremiah he talks

827
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:27,160
about Judah and his, you know,
the the, you know that that

828
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,320
Judah and Israel were, you know,
multiple wives to him as well.

829
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:36,040
And that's in that analogy can
be found in Jeremiah 3, six

830
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:41,280
through 14 and also in Jeremiah
3131 through 34.

831
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,520
So I've I've heard some people
try to wiggle out of the

832
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:50,440
liberate marriage by trying to
say that well it's like a you

833
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,840
know only if it's an unmarried
brother you know if he's not

834
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,600
married then he could fulfil
that commandment even though the

835
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,680
verse says nothing about him
being unmarried.

836
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:03,800
And that essentially would be
like it would it would undo the

837
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,840
purpose of of the of that
provision.

838
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:11,120
A lot of Moses would be robbing
Peter to pay Paul by saying that

839
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:14,680
he's got raise up seed for him.
And so the guy who's raising up

840
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,640
seed, if he can't live polygamy
then you know you've got the

841
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,320
same problem.
Someone's gonna have to raise up

842
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,840
seed for him as well.
So I I don't buy that argument

843
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:28,400
that's that I think it
implicitly implies polygamy in

844
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:33,080
in in that provision of the law
and so there's another verse and

845
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,680
this one's kind of interesting.
I saw it first reference in an

846
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,840
anti Mormon expose of what
Joseph Smith was teaching in

847
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,960
Nabu and he said he's using all
these different Old Testament

848
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,240
scriptures to argue for polygamy
such as Hosea chapter 3.

849
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:52,640
And I'm like I've never heard
Hosea used to argue for plural

850
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:56,640
marriage and this actually a
friend of mine actually said,

851
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,480
doesn't the story of Hosea argue
for plural marriage?

852
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,880
And I realized actually it does,
but people don't really want to

853
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,920
use that that context of what's
going on in Hosea chapter one

854
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:11,840
and Hosea chapter 3 because he's
being commanded by the Lord to

855
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:17,080
marry prostitutes or or unclean
women, basically whatever.

856
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:23,760
Let's see this says the verse.
The verb in verse 1, Hosea 1/2

857
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,080
could say marry a wife or take a
woman sexually.

858
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,680
Following the later sentence,
Hosea was commanded to have sex

859
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,480
with two unchased women, Gomer
and the unnamed woman of Hosea

860
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,480
3.
So he's basically told to marry,

861
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:41,320
you know, two unchased women in
these, in these, in these

862
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,000
stories.
And in either case, the reason

863
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,880
for this unusual directive is
specified in the later half of

864
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:50,800
the same verse where the lamb
commits great quorums by

865
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,120
forsaking the Lord.
God wanted to provide an

866
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,960
illustration of his relationship
with the people of Israel who'd

867
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:00,680
been unfaithful with to him by
practicing idolatry.

868
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,640
And so this theme is carried out
through the remainder of chapter

869
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,200
one and in the discussion of
Isaiah's, excuse me, on this

870
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,080
discussion of Israel's
unfaithfulness in Chapter 2.

871
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,600
So, So yeah, so that's he's made
two different unchaste women.

872
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,760
So that's God commanding
polygamy in the case of the

873
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,840
Prophet Hosea.
So I think we've pretty clearly

874
00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:25,880
established that the Old
Testament is very friendly to

875
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:26,960
plural marriage.
Right.

876
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,520
And you know, there's there's
really nothing you can of

877
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:35,080
substance to argue against it.
What's interesting is getting

878
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,000
into the New Testament because
this is what most Christians

879
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:42,040
actually acknowledge is I think
the old test, the old covenant

880
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:48,640
was OK with polygamy, while the
new covenant was was not OK with

881
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:50,880
polygamy.
So I I just would like to point

882
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:56,360
out contextually is that, you
know, the New Testament was

883
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,280
still taking place in a Jewish
culture of that time, right?

884
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,600
Jesus was a Jew.
And he was, you know, even even

885
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:06,680
though they were living under
Roman rule, they were still

886
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:09,120
under Jewish culture and many
Jewish customs.

887
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,680
And there are scholars who says
who will, who will explicitly

888
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,360
state that polygyny continued to
be practiced well into the

889
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:22,280
biblical period, and it's
attested among Jews as late as

890
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,560
the 2nd century CE.
And so that's from scholar

891
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,560
Michael Cogan, who I I believe
is a professor at Harvard.

892
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:35,720
And so the monogamy of the Roman
Empire was the cause OF22

893
00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:39,160
explanatory notes in the
writings of Josephus describing

894
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,520
the polygamous marriage of Herod
the Great was permitted under

895
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,680
Jewish custom.
So it's interesting there that

896
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:51,400
Josephus is admitting that you
know that Herod was practicing

897
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,480
polygamy because that was Jewish
custom.

898
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,200
And so that's going getting into
the New Testament time period

899
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,880
showing that polygamy was still
something that happened.

900
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:07,600
So I would point out, so Jesus
critiques and and corrects

901
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:10,560
various interpretations and
understandings of the Law of

902
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:15,400
Moses, but he never corrects the
Law of Moses on plural marriage.

903
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:20,560
There's not a word of him
condemning plural marriage in

904
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,440
the four Gospels in the New
Testament.

905
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:26,520
And this is, this is common.
You know polygamy deniers will

906
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:28,280
cite theeing.
You know there's a commandment

907
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:32,720
in the DNC about cleave to your
wife and none else, which they

908
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:35,480
used to argue for monogamy.
And there's Jacob chapter 2 in

909
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,840
the Book of Mormon.
And they cite those as the words

910
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,720
of Jesus and like if this is the
words of Jesus as the standard

911
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:44,880
for all people in all times,
don't you think that there would

912
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,120
be something in the New
Testament and the gospels where

913
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:51,720
Jesus would say something about
it if polygamy was this great

914
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:53,760
wrong that needed to be
corrected?

915
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,720
Absolutely.
Here's the thing, right?

916
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:01,360
So often the Savior gets painted
in pastel colors in the New

917
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,200
Testament, right?
He's mild, he's meek.

918
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,720
No, Jesus is a little radical,
right?

919
00:54:06,720 --> 00:54:10,320
Jesus is a little in your face.
And and one of the things that

920
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,760
that he was very good at was
pissing off the religious

921
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,960
structure of his day.
So if the Pharisees had glommed

922
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:22,120
onto this, if the Sadducees had
glommed onto this, why is it he

923
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,240
chose to leave that alone and go
after everything else?

924
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:28,240
He did not have a problem
questioning the religious

925
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:32,920
hierarchy of his day.
And if if plural marriage was

926
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:38,040
one of those things that was an
abomination in his sight, why

927
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,000
not address it?
He addresses marriage in a few

928
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,000
places in the New Testament.
Why not address it here?

929
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,800
Why not say, hey, don't do this,
this, this is wrong.

930
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,520
He never does, right?
He never does and and that

931
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,560
absence speaks volumes in my
opinion.

932
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,280
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
Jesus had a lot of things to

933
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,800
condemn about how the Jews
interpreted the Law of Moses

934
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,400
regarding divorce.
He never condemns how they

935
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:09,120
interpreted the Law of Moses
regarding polygamy.

936
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:13,040
So I I think that's something
that should be pointed now and

937
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:16,040
should carry a lot of weight.
And even if you're one of the

938
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,720
people who emphasizes the Book
of Mormon over the New

939
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:21,720
Testament, you saw it in 3rd
Nephi.

940
00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:25,360
Jesus doesn't say anything about
polygamy in 3rd Nephi against

941
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:25,800
it.
You know?

942
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,160
So, you know in the Book of
Mormon there are righteous

943
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,720
polygamists and there are, you
know, unrighteous polygamists.

944
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:34,480
And there's a lot of emphasis on
the unrighteous polygamists and

945
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:36,960
we'll get into the righteous
polygamists later on.

946
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:41,600
But my big thing is in the words
of Jesus Christ, if if if

947
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,320
polygamy was this great evil
that was paramount to all these

948
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,040
other.
You know some of these polygamy

949
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,800
Diaries make polygamies being
they consider it to be one of

950
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,240
the greatest crimes.
You know moral crimes that could

951
00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:57,880
possibly be done in
interpretation of of scripture

952
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:02,280
and the God's commandments.
And if, if that was the case, I

953
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,920
really think that Jesus would
have said more on that, would

954
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,200
have said something very
explicit on that subject and he

955
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,840
didn't.
So and in fact, there's some,

956
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,920
you know, if you've read Ogden
Kraut's book, you know, Jesus

957
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,720
was married, there's some pretty
compelling evidence that Jesus

958
00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:22,600
himself was actually a
polygamist.

959
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,800
Right?
You're you're familiar with that

960
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:26,560
book, right?
Yep.

961
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:27,720
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.

962
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:33,880
That's standard fairness.
Yeah, it it's great.

963
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:40,520
And yeah, I I I like this meme
that was, you know, it's it's

964
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,560
five guys walking down the
street kind of looking, you

965
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,800
know, wearing their suits and
it's like 5 copies of Jesus Was

966
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:53,480
married please.
And yeah, so so yeah, it's a

967
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,360
great book and I highly
recommend it.

968
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,600
And I'm not going to go into all
the arguments because you

969
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:01,000
literally could probably do an
entire podcast on the subject of

970
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,400
Jesus being married.
But we're focusing on the

971
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,720
scriptures here as there's some
scriptural evidence that Jesus

972
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:09,520
was a polygamist, not just the
early Mormon leaders saying it,

973
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,560
but was there some scriptural
evidence to support it.

974
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:18,440
And I would say yes, there is in
that there's a messianic

975
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:23,000
prophecy about Christ that
indicates that the the the

976
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:27,520
Messiah, the Davidic, you know
the fulfillment of the Davidic

977
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:30,040
king in the Messiah would be a
polygamist.

978
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:34,760
And you find this in Hebrews
chapter one, verses 8 through 9

979
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,720
quotes from the Psalm in the Old
Testament about the Messiah.

980
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:45,160
So it says but unto the Son He
saith, Thy throne, O God, is

981
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,400
forever and ever.
A scepter of righteousness is in

982
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,880
is the scepter of thy Kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness

983
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:55,840
and hated iniquity.
Therefore God, even thy God,

984
00:57:56,040 --> 00:58:00,240
hath anointed thee with the oil
of gladness above thy fellows.

985
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,720
So that quote in Hebrews chapter
one, verses 8 through 9, is

986
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:13,120
quoting Psalm 45.
And if you read that, that's

987
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:17,560
quoting Psalm specifically,
Psalm 45, verses 6 through 7.

988
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,200
Thy throne, O God, is forever
and ever.

989
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,120
The sceptre of thy Kingdom is a
right is a right scepter.

990
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:25,440
Thou loved righteousness and
hated wickedness.

991
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:29,680
Therefore God, thy God, anointed
thee with the oil of gladness

992
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:33,400
above thy fellows.
But let's continue reading the

993
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,880
next two verses.
All thy garments smell of myrrh

994
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:41,640
and ello, ellos and cassia, and
of ivory palaces, And whereby

995
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:45,320
they have made thee glad, Then,
verse 9, King's daughters were

996
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,880
among thy honorable women.
Upon thy right hand did stand

997
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:52,880
the Queen and gold of Ophir.
So what's interesting is this

998
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,720
Psalm is a royal wedding.
And it's not just a royal

999
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,320
wedding, it's a royal polygamist
wedding.

1000
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:05,080
So the King James Version is
kind of obscured where it

1001
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:10,040
references among by honorable
women, but other translations.

1002
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:12,400
This is something that Orson
Pratt went back and he found a

1003
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:16,680
bunch of the older translations
of the Bible where all these old

1004
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:21,720
translations say honorable wives
over and over again.

1005
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,080
If you go on Bible Hub, you
won't find those.

1006
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,280
You won't find those older
translations.

1007
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:32,160
But there is still one kind of
modern translation that is on

1008
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:35,560
there, the New American Bible
that translates it that way.

1009
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:39,400
So Psalm 45-9 in the New
American Bible states, daughters

1010
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:44,240
of Kings are your lovely wives.
A Princess arrayed in Orpha's

1011
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,320
gold comes to stand at your
right hand.

1012
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:52,800
So this is if if we take, if we
take Hebrews chapter one is

1013
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,480
authoritative is referencing,
this is referring to Jesus.

1014
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,640
It's indicating that the Messiah
would be a polygamist, not just

1015
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,480
married, but that he would be a
polygamist.

1016
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,800
So, and this is something the
early brethren picked up on, and

1017
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,920
they picked up on that, there's
a lot of different places in the

1018
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,840
New Testament that hint at
Christ being a polygamist in the

1019
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,600
Gospels.
So Orson Hyde said this and I

1020
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:19,800
this is one of my favorite
quotes and I'll throw this out

1021
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:23,000
any day when somebody's asking
what proof do you have that

1022
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:26,480
Jesus is a polygamist?
Was a polygamist, Orsenheim

1023
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,480
said.
This he said, if Jesus was never

1024
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,800
married, his intimacy with Mary
and Martha and the other Mary

1025
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,800
also who Jesus loved, must have
been highly unbecoming and

1026
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,400
improper to say the best of it.
I'll venture to say that Jesus

1027
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,880
Christ were now to pass through
the most pious countries in

1028
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,160
Christendom with a train of
women such as used to follow

1029
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:48,480
him, bondling about him, combing
his hair, anointing him with

1030
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:52,200
precious precious ointment,
washing his feet with tears and

1031
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:53,840
wiping them with the hair of
their heads.

1032
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:58,640
And an unmarried or even married
he would be mobbed, tarred and

1033
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:02,480
feathered and and rode not on an
ass but on a rail.

1034
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,640
So they're saying culturally,
these women are acting as wise.

1035
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:11,560
We realized in older cultures
that, you know, the conduct

1036
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:15,720
between men and women was a lot
more regulated than in society

1037
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,360
today, that you know these.
And I think actually you've

1038
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:22,280
pointed out, you know, different
things about the Gospels that

1039
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,800
would indicate that crisis.
Polygamous in previous podcasts

1040
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:27,160
as well.
Absolutely.

1041
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:30,400
So what?
Look, one of my there.

1042
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:34,520
There is a lot of evidence,
especially when you get into the

1043
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:38,360
apocryphal works.
You you start seeing things

1044
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:42,280
like, and we don't have the full
translation yet but there are

1045
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:45,880
some references to Jesus kissing
Mary Magdalene on the.

1046
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:47,840
And then that part of the
squirrel was gone.

1047
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:52,440
Right.
Let's go to let's go to the

1048
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:57,200
let's let's go to the.
The case of I can't remember if

1049
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,040
it's Mary or Martha, the one
that comes out after Lazarus

1050
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,640
dies and just tears Jesus apart
a little bit.

1051
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,440
But you remember the story and
I'm paraphrasing here so I'm

1052
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,920
going to butcher it.
But essentially Lazarus has

1053
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,760
died.
Jesus is on his way to raise him

1054
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,720
from the dead.
And again it's either Mary or

1055
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,120
Martha.
They come out and they tear into

1056
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:19,000
Jesus.
I mean, they're like, if you'd

1057
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,560
have been here, this wouldn't
have happened right now.

1058
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:28,360
I took a class in in Jewish
customs and Hebrew customs,

1059
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:31,400
right.
And one of the things that that

1060
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:35,840
the the the professor pointed
out about this story is in this

1061
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,360
time in history, if you're a
woman, you don't do that to a

1062
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:41,960
man and especially a religious
leader.

1063
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,120
Right?
The only thing that gives a

1064
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,640
woman a right to speak to
someone like this is if it's her

1065
01:02:46,640 --> 01:02:48,160
husband.
Right.

1066
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:52,160
And so the fact that she feels
she's got car Blanc to go out

1067
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:55,800
there and just let Jesus have it
in front of everybody, right?

1068
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:57,440
People saw it.
It got recorded.

1069
01:02:57,840 --> 01:02:59,640
Right.
Would indicate that he's

1070
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:02,880
married.
Now let's go just to the

1071
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,800
resurrection, right?
If Jesus isn't married, why is

1072
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:08,840
he not showing up to Peter?
Right.

1073
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:10,640
Wouldn't Peter make more sense
to show up to?

1074
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:12,160
He's gonna be the rock of the
church.

1075
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:16,000
Instead he goes to to Mary,
right?

1076
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:20,360
Mary's the first one he appears
to, which only makes sense,

1077
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:24,560
right?
That that he was married not

1078
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,920
just once but twice.
And there's a third argument

1079
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:33,400
there with the feast of the the
marriage feast that that applies

1080
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:38,520
very heavily that that Jesus is
married multiple times.

1081
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,600
Yeah, absolutely.
And then you know it's not just

1082
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:47,640
appearing to Mary Magdalene, but
it says that he appeared to the

1083
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:50,640
to women plural.
He didn't just appear to Mary

1084
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:53,200
Magdalene.
So there were you know multiple

1085
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,680
women and with the Mary
Magdalene appeared you know

1086
01:03:55,680 --> 01:04:02,920
that's I I was at an LDS soccer
at meeting on Easter Sunday and

1087
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:06,640
it was a very cool experience
where a member of the bishopric

1088
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:11,280
thought I read from the Gospel
of John that story of Mary's and

1089
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,840
and you know, Christ appearing
to Mary after the resurrection

1090
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:20,080
and the intimacy between Mary
and and and Jesus just clearly

1091
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,680
strongly implies that they were
married.

1092
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,400
And I I think that's just very
obvious and you know, I don't

1093
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:31,360
think that's disputed by people
among our distinct traditions,

1094
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:33,600
so.
I'm sure, I'm sure.

1095
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:34,960
We're just reading too much into
it.

1096
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,480
I'm sure he was just super
concerned about establishing the

1097
01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:42,800
Relief Society, so.
Yeah, but what what's

1098
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,880
interesting, there's a Joseph
Smith translation correction

1099
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:49,560
there where I think it says in
the King James touched me not

1100
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,480
and in the JSC it corrects it.
And I think this is actually a

1101
01:04:53,480 --> 01:04:57,920
correction that matches the
Greek where it says hold me not.

1102
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:01,400
So it's a lot more intimate than
just touching him.

1103
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:06,760
So you know, pretty interesting.
So the I've had people ask

1104
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,640
however, so if Jesus had was
married, if Jesus had children.

1105
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:12,960
Why?
Why, why, Why isn't it more

1106
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:16,160
explicit in in the scriptures?
Why is it, why is it why do the

1107
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,240
scriptures leave it kind of
ambiguous.

1108
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:21,680
I think Orson Hyde in one of his
sermons actually answered this

1109
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,480
question better than anyone else
that I've I've seen.

1110
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,360
So he said this.
He said, I shall say here that

1111
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,360
before the Savior died, he
looked upon his own natural

1112
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:35,560
children as we look upon ours.
He saw his seed in referencing

1113
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:38,800
Isaiah 5310, and immediately
afterwards he was cut off from

1114
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:40,880
the earth.
But who shall declare his

1115
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:43,000
generations?
And that's Isaiah 53.

1116
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,720
Eight.
They have no father to hold them

1117
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:48,480
in honorable remembrance.
They passed on into the shades

1118
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,320
of obscurity, never to be
exposed to mortal eye as the

1119
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,160
seed of the Blessed One.
For no doubt, had they been

1120
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:57,440
exposed to the eye of the world,
those infants might have shared

1121
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:01,160
the same fate as the children in
Jerusalem in the days of Herod,

1122
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,520
when all the children were
ordered to be slain.

1123
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:06,760
So.
So he says, yeah, they had to be

1124
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,520
kept a secret lest they would
have, you know, possibly been

1125
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,560
killed as well.
So, you know, I thought that

1126
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:14,800
was, you know, they might have
suffered the hands at the hands

1127
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:18,120
of assassin, as the sons of many
kings have done who were heirs

1128
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:20,280
apparent to the throne of their
father.

1129
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:22,680
And so, you know, there's
obviously.

1130
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:26,680
Let's put this in human context
for a second, right.

1131
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:30,680
Jesus wasn't just a religious
leader.

1132
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:34,640
He was a friend to many of these
men who would who would

1133
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:37,560
establish the the the church.
Right.

1134
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:42,560
They just saw his you know their
their best friend get strung up

1135
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:45,920
by the world power of that day.
Right.

1136
01:06:46,320 --> 01:06:49,200
That's like trying to hide from
the US government today.

1137
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:51,400
It's gonna be really, really
tough.

1138
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:56,800
And so if you're friends of
Jesus, your first top priority

1139
01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:01,800
is we gotta get his wives and
his children to safety, period.

1140
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,880
And there's plenty of evidence
to suggest that that very thing

1141
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:08,640
did happen, right?
You got things up in gall that

1142
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:14,560
would that would kind of
insinuate that even some stuff.

1143
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,840
Interestingly, if I'm not
mistaken, in Ukraine where one

1144
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,960
of the apostles goes to what is
essentially modern day Kiev,

1145
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:25,400
right.
And what's he doing over there?

1146
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:29,560
Maybe just preaching the gospel
or he's trying to stash some

1147
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:30,880
kids.
Right.

1148
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:36,600
And so with with these things we
we find ourselves so far

1149
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:37,640
removed.
Right.

1150
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:39,320
And and you have to personalize
them.

1151
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,720
What would I do in that
scenario, right.

1152
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:48,000
You and me, you get, you get
haunted down by somebody for

1153
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:51,720
living righteously.
You know it's incumbent upon me,

1154
01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:54,920
as as your friend, we we gotta
we gotta get his wife and his

1155
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,240
kids to safety right now.
That's number one priority.

1156
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:00,960
That's what he would want.
You get that done.

1157
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:05,240
Yep.
And it just makes sense.

1158
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:09,240
And yeah, the stuff about
Christ's descendants in France

1159
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,280
and in other places in Europe
is, you know, an extremely

1160
01:08:12,280 --> 01:08:15,720
fascinating rabbit hole to go go
down South.

1161
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:19,680
The the new, I would say the New
Testament doesn't just indicate

1162
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:23,439
that Christ was a polygamist.
But also there's some interest,

1163
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:28,120
you know, in the in the fact
that that that Christ was the

1164
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:30,520
literal son of God.
It would indicate that his

1165
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:34,840
father was a polygamist as well.
So we know that God the Father

1166
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:37,240
is a married man.
But this is, you know, this is

1167
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:39,920
something that's not just in
Mormonism but in ancient Jewish,

1168
01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:42,800
you know, the ancient Jewish
tradition understood that there

1169
01:08:42,800 --> 01:08:46,920
was, you know, a Hebrew goddess,
and that's something that is

1170
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:49,359
well established by scholars at
this point.

1171
01:08:50,600 --> 01:08:53,520
But we from the New Testament,
not only is there a Hebrew gods,

1172
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:57,800
but we know that God the Father
had another child with, you

1173
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:00,960
know, in the case of Jesus.
And that's not some people try

1174
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:03,760
to pin that the natural
conception of Christ as being a

1175
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:07,960
legitimate son of God the Father
as being something that Brigham

1176
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:11,880
Young came up with.
But a recent recently a a

1177
01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:16,319
friend, John Peterson, pointed
out this this statement by

1178
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:20,760
Joseph Smith indicating that you
know, Joseph also taught the

1179
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:24,080
natural conception.
So in Joseph's Plurality of

1180
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:29,880
God's Sermon on June 16th, 1844,
he said where was there ever a

1181
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:32,560
son without a father?
And where was there ever a

1182
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:34,439
father without first being a
son?

1183
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:38,640
What whenever did a tree or
anything spring into existence

1184
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,640
without a progenitor And
everything comes in this way.

1185
01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:45,479
So he said, where was there
anything that sprung into

1186
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,600
existence without a progenitor?
So you know, reproduction,

1187
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:52,960
everything comes in this way.
So the implications of that

1188
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:56,240
statement is that Jesus would
had a natural conception just

1189
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:59,400
like everyone else.
And there's actually a

1190
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:08,600
recollection of this is by Sarah
M Granger in early Utah, she

1191
01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:10,400
recalled.
She was and she was a counselor

1192
01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:13,480
in the Relief Society general
presidency said that her brother

1193
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:16,920
Lafayette Granger and the late
Bishop George Miller in

1194
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:20,240
conversation once with the
Prophet Joseph Smith were told

1195
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:23,360
by him that when Mary the mother
of Jesus was on her way to the

1196
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:27,800
Hill Country, she was met by God
the Father and the Angel Gabriel

1197
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,280
and the latter performed the
marriage between the Father and

1198
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:34,000
Mary.
So and that's the Mormon

1199
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:36,840
doctrine.
You know taking Joseph Smith

1200
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:40,400
that God the Father is a
polygamist as well-being married

1201
01:10:40,400 --> 01:10:43,360
to Mary as a as an additional
wife.

1202
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:48,320
So you know from beginning to so
we've there's so much evidence

1203
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:52,000
for polygamy in in the Old
Testament and even getting into

1204
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,200
the Gospels, there's nothing
against it, you know, and

1205
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:56,640
actually some stuff to imply
that Christ was a polygamist.

1206
01:10:56,960 --> 01:10:59,960
But people go, well look at the
epistles of Paul.

1207
01:10:59,960 --> 01:11:03,880
There's where the the Bible's
explicitly against polygamy.

1208
01:11:04,400 --> 01:11:08,480
And what's interesting is I've
I've seen Bible scholars admit

1209
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:13,480
that the epistles of Paul are
not actually as explicitly anti

1210
01:11:13,480 --> 01:11:16,280
polygamy as some would want you
to believe.

1211
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:18,000
And this is actually
interesting.

1212
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:25,880
I I recall a statement by Dan
McClellan and he was actually

1213
01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:28,520
interviewed.
You know he's he's actually

1214
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,280
mentioned this a a bunch of
times he's you know a Larry de

1215
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:34,840
St. kind of he's he's definitely
very progressive but is when

1216
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:39,080
he's not letting his his
progressivism seep into his

1217
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:41,600
interpretations.
His interpretations can be

1218
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,920
pretty solid on on quite a
number of of things with the

1219
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:50,440
Bible and he admits that the he
admits that the Bible is

1220
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:55,680
explicitly a pro polygamous.
You know it's it's it's

1221
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:59,160
explicitly pro polygamy from
beginning to end and and he he

1222
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:01,280
says that as someone who doesn't
even like polygamy.

1223
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:05,280
He says I don't like polygamy
but the Bible is very pro

1224
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:07,000
polygamy.
That was the world view.

1225
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:10,520
That was the culture of that
they were in, is what?

1226
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:14,640
How he rationalizes it.
But he says, he says, except for

1227
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:16,280
May.
What was that?

1228
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:17,920
Go ahead, finish your thought
there.

1229
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:22,040
OK, he said.
Except for maybe in the

1230
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:26,800
statement of in, in in in the
pastoral epistles.

1231
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:31,000
I think this is in First Timothy
3, where it talks about the

1232
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:33,360
Bishop being a husband of only
one wife.

1233
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:36,000
He said and but he said that's a
maybe.

1234
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:41,480
He he says even that seems to be
contextually let him be be the

1235
01:12:41,480 --> 01:12:44,080
husband of one wife.
He says contextually.

1236
01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:48,200
He thinks that the early
Christian emphasis was that he

1237
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:50,880
better be a good faithful
married man and he better not

1238
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:53,880
have been.
You know he better not have been

1239
01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:56,160
divorced and remarried.
Basically you shouldn't have a

1240
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,600
bunch of failed marriages in his
history if he's going to be a

1241
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:03,680
father of a congregation.
And so that's that's kind of how

1242
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:08,280
how Dan McClellan said that's
the only verse he could think of

1243
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:12,080
in the in the New Testament that
is you know that that's

1244
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:15,280
questionably you know, possibly
anti polygamy.

1245
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:18,360
But other scholars also admit
the ambiguity.

1246
01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:23,200
So this is you know this is
taken from the Wikipedia article

1247
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:26,600
on polygamy and and and early
and and Christianity.

1248
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:29,880
It says many critics of of
polygamy point to the Pauline

1249
01:13:29,880 --> 01:13:33,080
epistles that state the church
officials should be respectable,

1250
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:36,200
above reproach, and the husband
of a single wife.

1251
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:43,520
The however, the Greek phrase
mayas gunak Andra is an unusual

1252
01:13:43,520 --> 01:13:47,120
Greek construction capable of
being translated in multiple

1253
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:54,240
ways, including but not limited
to a one wife man or a wife man

1254
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:57,760
or a first wife man.
So A1 wife man would be

1255
01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:00,600
prohibiting plural marriage if
that was the interpretation.

1256
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:05,240
A a a wife man means requiring
elders to be married, or a first

1257
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:09,280
wife man would be prohibiting
divorce from the from from

1258
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,880
prohibiting divorces from
ordination.

1259
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,680
So, you know, that's kind of
interesting.

1260
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:19,600
And Brigham Young actually
argues, he says look at the

1261
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:22,320
context of it.
He's saying you've got to be,

1262
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:26,120
you've got to have a responsible
individual to be a father of a

1263
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:28,920
ward.
And it's it's about he has to

1264
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,400
have at least a wife.
He has to at least be married.

1265
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:34,240
It's not saying that he should,
only she should.

1266
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:37,000
He should only have one wife.
It's the context is all about

1267
01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:39,720
you need to have a responsible,
married man to lead a

1268
01:14:39,720 --> 01:14:42,480
congregation.
Not that you know it doesn't it

1269
01:14:42,480 --> 01:14:45,240
it doesn't make sense if you're
putting a prohibition on

1270
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:48,560
polygamy in a verse where you're
saying that you need to have a

1271
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:51,960
guy who can show he can manage
his family to lead a

1272
01:14:51,960 --> 01:14:54,400
congregation.
Because a person who's who's

1273
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:58,200
living polygamy successfully can
show that he can manage a much

1274
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:01,520
more difficult family situation
than a monogamist.

1275
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,280
So I I personally agree with
Brigham Young's interpretation

1276
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:10,120
and you know, I I think that's
the ambiguity of that, that

1277
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:14,760
Greek indicates that you know,
there's room for Brigham Young's

1278
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:17,880
interpretation of that, in my
opinion, not just room, but it

1279
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:21,360
seems to be the most credible
interpretation in my opinion.

1280
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:26,240
On a side note, Can you imagine
anything more distressing,

1281
01:15:26,920 --> 01:15:33,120
'cause I I I follow Dan
McClellan on TikTok and although

1282
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:36,200
I don't agree with him on
everything, he is wicked smart,

1283
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:40,040
right?
And I can think of nothing more

1284
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:43,680
disconcerting than when he does
his videos.

1285
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:46,680
And if my face was on there
first about the Bible and then

1286
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:50,360
he said, OK, let's see it, I
would, I would scrap my pants.

1287
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:52,600
I'd be like, I'm done.
I retract everything.

1288
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:54,480
That's my bag.
So.

1289
01:15:56,160 --> 01:16:00,320
Yeah, So, so I was kind of
confused though, because I I was

1290
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:05,000
confused why Dan would cite that
verse as is possible one place

1291
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:08,680
in the New Testament that could
be interpreted as as being

1292
01:16:08,680 --> 01:16:11,760
against polygamy because the
more common one that people

1293
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:16,000
actually use is First
Corinthians Chapter 7.

1294
01:16:16,480 --> 01:16:20,320
And you know this you this is
going to be a fascinating

1295
01:16:20,320 --> 01:16:23,480
chapter to talk about because
the most common verse people use

1296
01:16:23,480 --> 01:16:27,320
to argue against polygamy is
First Corinthians 7 verse 2,

1297
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,840
which is which states in the
King James.

1298
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:34,400
Nevertheless to avoid
fornication let every man have

1299
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:40,200
his own wife and every woman
have her own husband So oh that

1300
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:44,320
that's that seems to be almost
explicit there but and so I was

1301
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:47,680
wondering why Dan McClellan
wouldn't use use that as his

1302
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:51,400
citation.
Apparently that is not a good

1303
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:55,200
translation of that verse and
the act of credit.

1304
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:58,840
I have to give credit to the
book that explained this to me.

1305
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:02,560
There's it's a book that Taylor
Smith actually recommended to me

1306
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:07,520
called The Great Omission by
Clyde L Pinkelton Junior and he

1307
01:17:07,520 --> 01:17:09,800
says he's he's not he's not
Mormon.

1308
01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:12,440
He's not doesn't come from an
LDS background.

1309
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:16,320
He's just going into the Bible
and polygamy and he points out

1310
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:21,000
that the Greek is different
between every husband should

1311
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:24,040
have, you know, you know, should
have his own wife and every

1312
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:26,440
woman should have her own
husband.

1313
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:31,040
The Greek actually indicates
differently.

1314
01:17:31,040 --> 01:17:35,080
It indicates that a man should
have a wife and a woman, you

1315
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:37,960
know, should every man should
have his own wife and every

1316
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:42,080
woman should have a husband.
So you know it, it's it's

1317
01:17:42,280 --> 01:17:44,400
constructed differently in the
Greek.

1318
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:48,760
The the Greek words are are
different and it actually

1319
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,120
implies polygamy in that proper
understanding.

1320
01:17:52,120 --> 01:17:55,280
And so there are actually
several different translations

1321
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:59,400
in on Bible Hub that translate
this more according to the

1322
01:17:59,400 --> 01:18:02,760
Greek.
The Young's Literal Translation

1323
01:18:02,760 --> 01:18:06,800
says and because the whoredom
let each man have his own wife

1324
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:11,720
and each woman have her proper
husband, so it's saying every

1325
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:15,280
woman should have a proper
husband that that changes that.

1326
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:19,520
Verse a little bit, Jacob.
Want more from the Mormon

1327
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:23,200
Renegade Podcast?
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1328
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:27,120
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01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:29,240
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01:18:45,880 --> 01:18:49,840
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Click the link in this episode's

1335
01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:53,160
show notes today.
Yeah, and and this comes out in

1336
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:55,000
the literal standard version as
well.

1337
01:18:55,240 --> 01:18:58,080
And because of the whoredom, let
each man have his own wife and

1338
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:00,240
let each woman have her proper
husband.

1339
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:03,720
And then the Weymouth New
Testament translation says, But

1340
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:06,760
because there's so much
fornication, every man should

1341
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:11,000
have a wife of his own and every
woman should have a husband.

1342
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:13,160
So every man should have a wife
of his own.

1343
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:16,040
So it's saying that she should
not have another husband.

1344
01:19:16,040 --> 01:19:19,120
You know, it's prohibiting a
woman having multiple husbands.

1345
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:23,200
And that's also there's a verse
in Romans prohibiting that, but

1346
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:27,000
it's saying that it's not
prohibiting a woman from being

1347
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:29,360
having a husband of another
wife, right.

1348
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:34,120
It's it's the prohibition is
exclusively on the woman to only

1349
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:37,520
have, you know, you know to only
have one husband not on the

1350
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:39,560
husband to have only have one
wife.

1351
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:43,880
And so understanding that just
that just blew my mind.

1352
01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:46,880
It just kind of shows you that
sometimes you have to be

1353
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:52,120
cautious with taking a verse
that's face value and you know

1354
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:54,000
it.
It sometimes might take digging

1355
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:58,760
into the Greek to understand or
or the Hebrew if it's still you

1356
01:19:58,760 --> 01:20:01,520
know the Old Testament to.
Make sure that that was

1357
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:03,880
translated correct.
You know we believe in the Bible

1358
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:07,040
at if it is as far it is
translated correctly.

1359
01:20:07,480 --> 01:20:10,960
So what what blew my mind even
further though is that this

1360
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:14,880
book, the great Admission argues
that First Corinthians 7 is

1361
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:18,480
actually a place in the New
Testament where polygamy is is

1362
01:20:18,480 --> 01:20:20,520
commanded in certain
circumstances.

1363
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:24,840
And when I, when I read this, I
was just, you know, I I I was

1364
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:30,200
excited because I'm like there
goes the the, the claim that you

1365
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:33,520
know leverite marriage in
Deuteronomy is the only place in

1366
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:37,120
the Bible polygamy is commanded,
you know, because this Paul

1367
01:20:37,120 --> 01:20:40,000
gives another circumstance where
he commands polygamy.

1368
01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:42,200
So.
This is.

1369
01:20:42,200 --> 01:20:44,960
Interesting.
So we're going, Yep, we're in,

1370
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:48,840
we're in, we're in.
First Corinthians Chapter 7, so

1371
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:52,400
continuing, he says.
So verse 10, he says.

1372
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:55,280
And to the married I command,
yet not I.

1373
01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:59,200
But the Lord, let not the wife
depart from her husband, then

1374
01:20:59,200 --> 01:21:02,160
verse 11.
But and if she depart, let her

1375
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:06,000
remain unmarried or be
reconciled to her husband, and

1376
01:21:06,000 --> 01:21:08,960
let not the husband put away his
wife.

1377
01:21:09,520 --> 01:21:13,960
And so there's this interesting
clause specifically to the the

1378
01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:17,800
woman, if she depart, she should
remain unmarried or be

1379
01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:22,400
reconciled to her husband, is
what he he he directs, and then

1380
01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:25,200
he gives some counsel.
And you know going on into

1381
01:21:26,160 --> 01:21:31,000
verses 12 through 15 about the
case, if you're married to

1382
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:33,440
someone, you're Christian and
you're married to someone who's

1383
01:21:33,440 --> 01:21:37,040
a non believer, right.
And he says, if a brother have a

1384
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:39,960
wife that believe not and she's
pleased to dwell with him, let

1385
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:42,120
him not put her away.
And the woman who had the

1386
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:45,040
husband that believed not if she
he be pleased to dwell with her,

1387
01:21:45,240 --> 01:21:48,080
let her not leave him.
For the unbelieving husband is

1388
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:51,080
sanctified by the wife and the
unbelieving wife is sanctified

1389
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:53,200
by the husband.
Elsewhere your children are

1390
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:56,240
clean, but now they are holy.
Verse 15.

1391
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:58,520
But if the unbelieving depart,
let him depart.

1392
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:02,880
A brother or sister is not under
bondage in such cases, but God

1393
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:06,240
hath called us to peace.
So what's interesting is

1394
01:22:06,480 --> 01:22:10,360
Tertullian, one of the early
Christian commentators in the

1395
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:13,080
end of the 2nd century,
beginning of the 3rd century.

1396
01:22:13,440 --> 01:22:17,240
He comments on verse 15
basically saying that if you're

1397
01:22:17,240 --> 01:22:21,920
in a mixed faith marriage and
you know and it doesn't work

1398
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:24,320
out, basically if your spouse
leaves you over you converting

1399
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:27,680
to Christianity, in those
contexts, they are not under

1400
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:29,920
bondage.
They are free to remarry.

1401
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:35,080
If you know your conversion was
the contribution to, you know,

1402
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:39,440
your spouse leaving you.
So, so, so that's an interesting

1403
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:41,440
thing.
But then continuing on, he gives

1404
01:22:41,440 --> 01:22:44,160
some more directions in verse
28.

1405
01:22:45,280 --> 01:22:48,720
But and so he kind of counsels
men that under the certain

1406
01:22:48,720 --> 01:22:52,080
circumstances they were in, it's
preferable to not be married,

1407
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:52,840
right.
It's kind of.

1408
01:22:53,200 --> 01:22:56,640
And some people twist this to be
that Paul was pro celibacy.

1409
01:22:57,000 --> 01:23:01,280
And if you read the Joseph Smith
translation of this of First

1410
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:06,320
Corinthians Chapter 7, Joseph
adds more context to this

1411
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:10,400
chapter than almost any other
place in the New Testament.

1412
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:14,240
In the JST of the New Testament
and the context that Doza Smith

1413
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:17,640
puts to it is that Paul saying
it's better to be as though

1414
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:20,720
you're unmarried if you're in
the doing missionary work.

1415
01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:24,000
If you are in the mission field,
serving a mission.

1416
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:28,480
It's better to not have the
distractions and obligations

1417
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:31,920
that come with being married.
But then he says it is better to

1418
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:35,040
marry than to commit sexual sin,
right?

1419
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:38,520
Is what Paul says earlier in
that chapter.

1420
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:44,040
So continuing he says in verse
28, but and if, but if thou

1421
01:23:44,040 --> 01:23:48,000
marry, thou hast not sin, and if
a virgin marry, she hath not

1422
01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:51,240
sinned.
So verse 28 gives seems to be

1423
01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:56,840
giving a blanket allowance for
men to remarry and and and for

1424
01:23:57,000 --> 01:23:58,720
and for.
He said if a woman who's a

1425
01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:00,560
virgin marries, she hath not
sinned.

1426
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:03,800
So it seems to be kind of he's
having kind of a a different

1427
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:05,520
center.
So he's kind of basically saying

1428
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:08,800
that a man can remarry and he
doesn't offer any

1429
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,600
qualifications.
He doesn't say if you've never

1430
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:18,840
been married if you've you know
only bet you know it you know if

1431
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:23,400
your wife you know hasn't left
you you know it's it seems to be

1432
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:27,600
pre blanket allowing a marriage
situation you know allowing men

1433
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:30,800
to marry.
And so in the situation when you

1434
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:36,520
when we go back to the beginning
and we've looked at verses 10

1435
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:40,040
through 11 that he doesn't
command unmarried men, that they

1436
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:44,880
can't remarry only to the women,
he says you need to reconcile

1437
01:24:44,880 --> 01:24:46,600
with your husband or remain
unmarried.

1438
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:51,040
And that's in verse 11.
And So what happens in a

1439
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:55,040
situation if a husband and wife
separate?

1440
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:59,000
And the husband, because he's
not under the injunction not to

1441
01:24:59,000 --> 01:25:02,680
remarry, he goes and gets
remarried, and she's now in a

1442
01:25:02,680 --> 01:25:07,680
situation where she must either
remain unmarried or reconcile to

1443
01:25:07,680 --> 01:25:14,000
her husband, right?
And so in that specific context

1444
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:18,600
it seems to be a place where
polygamy would be commanded,

1445
01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:22,560
where a husband is to let his
wife reconcile to him if he's

1446
01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:27,640
remarried based on these
directions of Paul and this

1447
01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:29,680
interesting just just kind of as
an anecdote.

1448
01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:33,880
This was actually how Fred
Collier became a polygamist

1449
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:36,920
practicing polygamist.
The first time he became entered

1450
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:39,960
into polygamy was he became a
fundamentalist.

1451
01:25:40,200 --> 01:25:43,560
He he and his his his wife
divorced him over him.

1452
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:46,280
So.
So and Fred and Fred's situation

1453
01:25:46,480 --> 01:25:49,760
his wife divorced him over him
converting to fundamentalism and

1454
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:53,200
he goes and he gets remarried.
And then his his wife who had

1455
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:57,440
divorced him wanted to regretted
divorcing him and wanted to

1456
01:25:57,440 --> 01:26:01,880
reconcile and so he he accepted
her back to be his wife.

1457
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:04,960
And so that is actually how he
entered into polygamy was

1458
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:11,560
allowing a wife who separated to
reconcile just as Paul states is

1459
01:26:11,720 --> 01:26:15,600
you know the direction here in
First Corinthians 7 verses 10

1460
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:18,040
through 11.
So that's.

1461
01:26:19,720 --> 01:26:22,200
Yeah.
So that's another place in the

1462
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:25,280
New Testament.
I mean in the in the Bible,

1463
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:29,880
where polygamy is commanded, in
the case of a husband has a wife

1464
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:33,600
separate from him.
He remarries, and if she wants

1465
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:36,560
the first wife wants to
reconcile, he has to let her.

1466
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:39,760
You know, he has to become a
polygamist to let her reconcile.

1467
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:44,880
So there's some people I just
want to cover this real quick

1468
01:26:44,880 --> 01:26:46,280
'cause this is a little bit of a
tangent.

1469
01:26:46,400 --> 01:26:49,000
There's some people interpret
First Corinthians 7 as

1470
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:52,760
referencing Paul being
unmarried, but there seems to be

1471
01:26:52,760 --> 01:26:56,520
a reference to Paul being
married 2 chapters later in

1472
01:26:56,520 --> 01:27:00,360
First Corinthians Chapter 9.
And this is an interesting

1473
01:27:00,360 --> 01:27:02,560
statement because it's not just
saying Paul was married, but

1474
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:05,360
saying the other apostles were
married men as well.

1475
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:11,840
So starting with verse three, my
my answer to them who do examine

1476
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:14,440
me is this.
Have we not power to eat and to

1477
01:27:14,440 --> 01:27:17,120
drink?
Have we not power to lead about

1478
01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:21,480
a sister, a wife, as well as
other apostles, and as the

1479
01:27:21,480 --> 01:27:25,280
brother of the Lord and Cephas
or I only and Barnabas have we

1480
01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:29,880
power to for bear working.
So it's interesting, have we not

1481
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:32,920
the right to have a sister or a
wife as well as the other

1482
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:38,360
apostles as well as the brethren
of the Lord and Cephas or Peter?

1483
01:27:38,360 --> 01:27:42,520
So he's saying all these men
travelled with wives and you

1484
01:27:42,520 --> 01:27:46,520
know, and so it's it's
indicating they were married men

1485
01:27:46,520 --> 01:27:50,800
and it wouldn't make sense.
He's saying or or or Barnabas

1486
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:53,080
and I, the only ones who aren't
allowed to do this, so it

1487
01:27:53,080 --> 01:27:55,040
wouldn't make sense if they
weren't married, right.

1488
01:27:55,360 --> 01:27:57,480
Right, so.
Interesting.

1489
01:27:57,720 --> 01:28:02,800
So I I think that basically
we're we've pretty made it

1490
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:07,120
pretty compelling case that the
Bible is pro polygamy, right?

1491
01:28:07,120 --> 01:28:11,240
Yep.
So a a friend of mine, Errol

1492
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:14,560
Amy, who likes to say the early
Christian writings, actually

1493
01:28:14,560 --> 01:28:18,120
found a couple places in the
early Christian writings that

1494
01:28:18,120 --> 01:28:20,920
were actually friendly to plural
marriage as well.

1495
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:23,880
That would just be interesting
to mention really quick.

1496
01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:27,560
So he said Indeed.
So listen to Justin Martyr, He

1497
01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:31,040
said in in his dialogue with
Trifo a Jew, he said, Indeed,

1498
01:28:31,040 --> 01:28:33,600
gentlemen, this one
transgression of David with the

1499
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:37,160
wife of Uriah, show that the
patriarch shows that the

1500
01:28:37,160 --> 01:28:40,960
patriarchs took many wives not
to commit adultery, but that

1501
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:43,720
certain mysteries might be
indicated by them.

1502
01:28:44,440 --> 01:28:47,640
So he's saying that that wasn't
adultery for the patriarchs to

1503
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:50,120
take multiple wives.
But he said that certain

1504
01:28:50,120 --> 01:28:52,160
mysteries were indicated by
that.

1505
01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:56,280
And so another quote he found
that's very fascinating is

1506
01:28:56,280 --> 01:29:02,160
Tertullian in in a writing he
wrote about two O 8 AD.

1507
01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:06,320
An exhortation to chastity said
this, he said.

1508
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:09,840
And yet you will say the blessed
patriarchs contracted multiple

1509
01:29:09,840 --> 01:29:12,920
marriages, not only with wives
but even with concubines.

1510
01:29:13,240 --> 01:29:16,400
Is it then not lawful for us to
also to marry repeatedly?

1511
01:29:16,560 --> 01:29:20,960
Certainly is lawful if your new
piddles are types or symbols

1512
01:29:21,000 --> 01:29:23,680
prefiguring something yet to
come, or the ancient command

1513
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:28,160
increase and multiply.
Genesis 128 is still valid in

1514
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:31,640
our own day, and not superseded
by the warning that the time is

1515
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:34,760
short and it remains that they
who have wives to act as though

1516
01:29:34,760 --> 01:29:37,200
they have not.
So he said he was trying to say

1517
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:41,960
that he interpreted First
Corinthians 729 to, you know,

1518
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:45,560
the command that's better to not
be married in that you know that

1519
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:48,040
that statement which we
discussed, Joseph Smith said was

1520
01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:49,600
in the context of missionary
work.

1521
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:55,880
So, you know, he he's saying
that if the command to multiply

1522
01:29:55,880 --> 01:30:00,040
and replenish the work earth was
still in force, then polygamy

1523
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:04,120
and he said taking multiple
wives and even concubines would

1524
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:07,400
still be allowed if that command
is still in force.

1525
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:10,400
And he, he was personally
interpreting, interpreting it as

1526
01:30:10,400 --> 01:30:12,600
not being enforced.
But you know, we as Larry Day

1527
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:16,760
Saints believe that that is
absolutely still enforced.

1528
01:30:17,440 --> 01:30:22,720
So, you know, that's just
another interesting verse that

1529
01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:26,760
goes into all of this and you
know, some.

1530
01:30:27,080 --> 01:30:30,440
So I guess one thing to kind of
end our discussion on the New

1531
01:30:30,440 --> 01:30:33,520
Testament.
There's a really awesome George

1532
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:39,120
Buchanan sermon at the October
1869 General Conference where he

1533
01:30:39,120 --> 01:30:43,040
says this.
He says it's in the Journal of

1534
01:30:43,040 --> 01:30:44,960
Discourses.
He said, I will repeat a few

1535
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:48,800
verses in the 10th chapter of
Mark, commencing at the 28th

1536
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:50,560
verse.
Then Peter began to say unto

1537
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:52,720
him, Lo, we have left all and
have followed thee.

1538
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:55,640
And Jesus answered and said,
Verily I say unto you, There is

1539
01:30:55,640 --> 01:30:58,520
no man that hath left house, or
brethren, or sisters, or father,

1540
01:30:58,520 --> 01:31:02,120
or mother, or wife, or children,
or lands, for my sake and the

1541
01:31:02,120 --> 01:31:03,920
Gospels.
But he shall receive a

1542
01:31:03,920 --> 01:31:06,640
hundredfold.
Now in this time houses,

1543
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:09,680
brethren, sisters, mothers, and
children, and lands with

1544
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:13,600
persecutions, and in the world
to come eternal life.

1545
01:31:14,280 --> 01:31:17,480
So then George Ducan says this.
He says, the Lord was so pleased

1546
01:31:17,480 --> 01:31:20,840
with the faithfulness of Abraham
that he gave unto him the

1547
01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:23,640
greatest promise he could give
to any human being on the face

1548
01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:25,720
of the earth.
What do you think was the nature

1549
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:27,760
of that promise?
That he promised to Abraham a

1550
01:31:27,760 --> 01:31:30,440
crown of eternal glory.
That he promised to him that he

1551
01:31:30,440 --> 01:31:31,760
should be in the presence of the
Lamb.

1552
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:34,800
That he should tune his harp and
sing praises to God and the Lamb

1553
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:36,600
throughout endless ages of
eternity.

1554
01:31:36,840 --> 01:31:40,080
Let me, let me quote it to you.
And it would be well if all the

1555
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:43,000
inhabitants of the earth would
reflect upon it, said the Lord

1556
01:31:43,240 --> 01:31:45,600
in blessing I will bless thee,
and in multiplying I will

1557
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:49,360
multiply thy seed as the star of
heavens, as the sandwiches upon

1558
01:31:49,360 --> 01:31:52,960
the seashore, and thy seed shall
possess the gate of his enemies.

1559
01:31:53,160 --> 01:31:56,000
This is the promise which God
gave to Abraham in the hour of

1560
01:31:56,000 --> 01:31:59,200
his triumph, in the hour when
there was joy in heaven over the

1561
01:31:59,200 --> 01:32:02,840
faithfulness of one of God's
noblest and most devoted sons.

1562
01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:04,720
Think of the greatness of this
blessing.

1563
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:07,280
Can you count the stars of
heaven, or even the grains of

1564
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:09,960
the handful of sand?
No is beyond the power of

1565
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:11,920
earth's most gifted sons to do
either.

1566
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:14,880
And yet God promised to Abraham
that his seed should be as

1567
01:32:14,880 --> 01:32:17,400
innumerable as the stars of
heaven or the sand on the

1568
01:32:17,400 --> 01:32:19,520
seashore.
How similar was the promise of

1569
01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:23,160
God to Abraham through that made
by Jesus as a reward for

1570
01:32:23,160 --> 01:32:25,800
faithfulness for those who
followed him, said Jesus.

1571
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:29,920
He that forsaketh brothers or
sisters, house or lands, father,

1572
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:33,040
mother, wives, or children,
shall receive a hundredfold in

1573
01:32:33,040 --> 01:32:36,560
this life, with persecutions and
eternal life in the world to

1574
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:37,640
come.
So he said.

1575
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:40,440
How similar is this promise that
Jesus is making to his

1576
01:32:40,440 --> 01:32:43,720
disciples?
To the promise that God made to

1577
01:32:43,720 --> 01:32:47,520
Abraham, he said, a very similar
blessing to that which God long

1578
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:51,440
before had made to Abraham, and
couched in very similar terms.

1579
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:54,120
It is.
It is pertinent for us to

1580
01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:58,520
inquire on the present occasion,
how the promises made by Jesus

1581
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:01,880
as father in ages of the world,
separate by a long interval, the

1582
01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:04,880
one from the other, could be
realized under the system which

1583
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:07,800
prevails.
So the system of monogamy which

1584
01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:10,200
prevails through Christendom at
the present day, in the

1585
01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:13,520
monogamic system under the
present, under which the

1586
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:15,840
possession of more than one
living wife is regarded as a

1587
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:20,640
crime, and as being so fearfully
immoral, how could the promise

1588
01:33:20,640 --> 01:33:23,160
of the Savior to His faithful
followers that they should have

1589
01:33:23,160 --> 01:33:25,760
a hundredfold of wives and
children in the present life

1590
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:28,120
ever be realized?
There's a way which God

1591
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:31,160
provided, A revelation given to
this Church, in which he said,

1592
01:33:31,160 --> 01:33:34,840
straight as the gay, straight as
the gate, and narrow the way

1593
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:37,440
that leadeth unto the exaltation
and the continuation of the

1594
01:33:37,440 --> 01:33:40,480
lives, And few there be that
find it, because He received me.

1595
01:33:40,480 --> 01:33:42,880
Not in the world, neither do ye
know me.

1596
01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:45,680
God revealed that straight and
narrow way to Abraham, and

1597
01:33:45,680 --> 01:33:48,200
taught him how he could enter.
Therein He taught him the

1598
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:50,040
principle of the plurality of
wives.

1599
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:53,040
Abraham practiced it, and
bequeathed it to his children as

1600
01:33:53,040 --> 01:33:54,880
a principle which they were to
practice.

1601
01:33:55,200 --> 01:33:59,160
Under such a system it was
comparatively an easy matter for

1602
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:01,760
men to have 100 full of wives,
children, fathers, mothers,

1603
01:34:01,760 --> 01:34:04,040
brothers, sisters, and
everything else in proportion,

1604
01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:08,120
and in no other way to the
promise of Jesus be realized by

1605
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:11,320
his followers than in the way
God has provided in which he

1606
01:34:11,320 --> 01:34:13,080
revealed to His church and
people.

1607
01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:16,360
In these latter days I felt led
to dwell in these few passages

1608
01:34:16,360 --> 01:34:18,560
from the sayings of Jesus, to
show you that there are an

1609
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:22,040
abundance of scriptural proofs
in favor of this principle, and

1610
01:34:22,040 --> 01:34:24,880
the position of this Church is
assumed in addition to those

1611
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:27,800
previously referred to.
It is a blessed thing to know

1612
01:34:27,800 --> 01:34:31,360
that in this, as in every other
doctrine and principle taught by

1613
01:34:31,360 --> 01:34:35,080
us as a Church, we are sustained
by the revelations God gave to

1614
01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:38,080
his people anciently.
One of the strongest supporters,

1615
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:41,880
strongest supports the elders of
this church have had in their

1616
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:44,840
laborers among the nations was
the knowledge that the Bible and

1617
01:34:44,840 --> 01:34:48,400
New Testament sustained every
principle they advance to the

1618
01:34:48,400 --> 01:34:51,160
people.
And so you know he's referencing

1619
01:34:51,160 --> 01:34:58,880
how that state, yeah.
No, absolutely.

1620
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:03,680
I look, yeah, I'm, I'm with you.
I think at this point you can

1621
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:07,080
look at the totality within the
Old Testament and the New

1622
01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:12,760
Testament and make a very strong
case that polygamy wasn't just

1623
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:15,800
something that was acceptable.
It was pretty normal in those

1624
01:35:15,800 --> 01:35:19,360
days.
Yeah.

1625
01:35:19,960 --> 01:35:26,520
And so you know that statement
of Jesus about, you know they

1626
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:29,480
shall receive a hundredfold in
this time of houses, brethren

1627
01:35:29,480 --> 01:35:31,880
and sisters, mothers and
children, lands with

1628
01:35:31,880 --> 01:35:34,880
persecutions and the world to
come, eternal life.

1629
01:35:35,360 --> 01:35:41,000
So that statement is also in DNC
132, where verse 55, in

1630
01:35:41,000 --> 01:35:43,720
referencing the blessings that
Joseph would receive even if

1631
01:35:43,760 --> 01:35:48,080
Emma were to, you know, Emma
were to be unfaithful.

1632
01:35:48,280 --> 01:35:51,200
He said I will bless him and
multiply him and give him a

1633
01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:54,920
hundredfold in this world of
fathers and mothers, brothers

1634
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:58,920
and sisters, houses and lands,
wives and children and crowns of

1635
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:00,760
eternal lives in the eternal
worlds.

1636
01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:04,560
So, you know, it's, you know, in
the New Testament it leaves off

1637
01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:08,560
the word wives, but, you know,
it's implied in stating, you

1638
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:10,680
know, all these different
familial relations.

1639
01:36:10,680 --> 01:36:14,800
Right.
And so DNC 132 is, is explicitly

1640
01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:17,120
mentioning wives in that
context.

1641
01:36:17,720 --> 01:36:19,320
Absolutely.
Yeah.

1642
01:36:19,320 --> 01:36:21,080
Interesting.
Just awesome.

1643
01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:27,880
So Are you ready to kind of dig
into probably the Book of Mormon

1644
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:30,120
and and plural marriage in the
Book of Mormon now?

1645
01:36:30,320 --> 01:36:31,920
Yeah, I think so.
I think so.

1646
01:36:32,520 --> 01:36:37,440
OK, actually I think let's just
briefly touch on the DNC because

1647
01:36:37,440 --> 01:36:40,520
there is that one person I
mentioned that they said you

1648
01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:44,160
know that the the polygamy
Diaries will use in the DNC to

1649
01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:48,480
argue against polygamy.
And that is DNC 42 verse 22

1650
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:51,840
saying thou shalt love thy wife
with all thy heart and shalt

1651
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:53,720
cleave unto her and to none
else.

1652
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:56,840
And so they see this is one of
their AHA, you know, just like

1653
01:36:56,840 --> 01:37:00,760
Jacob Two is their other AHA.
But commenting so early, Latter

1654
01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:03,440
Day Saints who practiced
polygamy didn't hide from this

1655
01:37:03,440 --> 01:37:05,120
verse.
They acknowledged it.

1656
01:37:05,280 --> 01:37:09,560
So commenting on it, Orson Pratt
said, Now suppose the members of

1657
01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:13,480
this church had undertaken to
vary from this law given in 1831

1658
01:37:13,640 --> 01:37:16,400
to love their one wife with all
their hearts and to cleave to

1659
01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:18,200
none else.
They would have come under the

1660
01:37:18,200 --> 01:37:20,240
curse and condemnation of God's
holy law.

1661
01:37:20,240 --> 01:37:23,080
And he goes on to say that was
what was revealed at that time.

1662
01:37:23,080 --> 01:37:25,520
That's where we were at
according to our traditions.

1663
01:37:25,760 --> 01:37:29,200
And the Lord had not yet seen
fit to reveal the higher law,

1664
01:37:29,280 --> 01:37:33,160
and so he saw this was a lower
law, but a higher law would be

1665
01:37:33,160 --> 01:37:36,960
given later.
So according to Lyman White,

1666
01:37:36,960 --> 01:37:40,520
Joseph Smith told the apostles,
And this is you know why it

1667
01:37:40,520 --> 01:37:43,160
wouldn't have been revealed at
that early date that the

1668
01:37:43,160 --> 01:37:46,120
principal polygamy would quote
damn more men than it would

1669
01:37:46,120 --> 01:37:48,080
save.
And Brigham Young said that

1670
01:37:48,080 --> 01:37:52,200
Joseph had to pass certain tests
before certain revelations were

1671
01:37:52,200 --> 01:37:54,480
given.
And Brigham Young also said the

1672
01:37:54,480 --> 01:37:56,880
abuse of plural marriage would
send thousands to hell.

1673
01:37:56,880 --> 01:37:59,600
So that explains why the Lord
would be cautious about who he

1674
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:03,800
would reveal that to.
So William Law actually quoted

1675
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:08,800
this you know DNC 42 to Joseph
Smith when Joseph told him gave

1676
01:38:08,800 --> 01:38:11,960
him the revelation on plural
marriage he said and he recalled

1677
01:38:11,960 --> 01:38:15,920
this in interview in 1887.
He said when I came to Joseph

1678
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:19,360
and showed him the paper he said
that Hiram had given him with

1679
01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:24,040
part with DNC 132.
He he he Joseph said yes that is

1680
01:38:24,040 --> 01:38:27,040
a genuine revelation.
I said to the Prophet by the

1681
01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:29,240
book of Doctrine Covenants
there's a revelation just

1682
01:38:29,240 --> 01:38:31,840
contrary to this.
Oh, said Joseph, that was given

1683
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:35,200
when the church was in its
infancy and that then it was all

1684
01:38:35,200 --> 01:38:38,960
right to feed the people on
milk, but now it is necessary to

1685
01:38:38,960 --> 01:38:43,120
give them strong meat.
And so that statement by Joseph

1686
01:38:43,480 --> 01:38:46,880
acknowledging that is, you know,
and he's, he's rebuttaling him

1687
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:50,680
by referencing the verse in the,
you know, verses in the New

1688
01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:53,560
Testament, the reference milk
versus meat of the gospel.

1689
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:57,520
So you know First Corinthians 3,
two states I fed you with milk,

1690
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:00,640
not with meat, for heretofore
you are not able to bear it,

1691
01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:02,840
neither are you now able to bear
it.

1692
01:39:03,320 --> 01:39:06,640
So.
And then Hebrews 514 says strong

1693
01:39:06,640 --> 01:39:10,520
meat belongs to them their full
age, even those who by reason of

1694
01:39:10,520 --> 01:39:15,280
use of their senses have their
senses exercised to discern both

1695
01:39:15,360 --> 01:39:19,760
good and evil.
So with Jacob two verse 30,

1696
01:39:19,760 --> 01:39:23,880
there's debate about how to
interpret that, whether that is

1697
01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:26,920
an exception clause or not.
And I guess we should probably

1698
01:39:26,920 --> 01:39:31,840
turn there just to read that,
you know, just to read that

1699
01:39:31,840 --> 01:39:34,320
verse and it's.
Let's read it in context.

1700
01:39:34,320 --> 01:39:36,640
Let's try that.
I know that's not popular with a

1701
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:40,080
lot of folks, but let's.
OK, yeah, if you want let's.

1702
01:39:40,120 --> 01:39:42,760
Let's read it in context.
Let's make sure we're getting

1703
01:39:42,760 --> 01:39:47,520
everything there.
OK, so let's see where where do

1704
01:39:47,520 --> 01:39:49,440
you want to start?
You you probably read this more

1705
01:39:49,440 --> 01:39:51,640
recently than me.
I've been more.

1706
01:39:51,840 --> 01:39:55,880
Let's just go ahead and let's
let's just start in 30 and let's

1707
01:39:55,880 --> 01:39:58,280
say let's just go through 34,
right.

1708
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:03,400
And then that just covers our.
OK, OK, so.

1709
01:40:03,680 --> 01:40:05,040
I'll go ahead and do that for
you.

1710
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:07,920
OK.
Starting in 30.

1711
01:40:07,920 --> 01:40:11,720
For if I will saith the Lord of
hosts, raise up seed unto me, I

1712
01:40:11,720 --> 01:40:14,840
will command my people,
otherwise they shall hearken

1713
01:40:14,840 --> 01:40:18,360
unto these things.
For behold, I, the Lord, have

1714
01:40:18,360 --> 01:40:21,640
seen the sorrow and heard the
mourning of the daughters of my

1715
01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:25,960
people in the land of Jerusalem.
Yeah, and in all the lands of my

1716
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:29,720
people, because of the
wickedness and abominations of

1717
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:33,600
their husbands.
And I will not suffer, saith the

1718
01:40:33,600 --> 01:40:38,200
Lord of hosts, that the cries of
their of of the fair daughters

1719
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:41,680
of this people which I have led
out of the land of Jerusalem,

1720
01:40:42,040 --> 01:40:46,240
shall come up unto me against
the men of my people, saith the

1721
01:40:46,240 --> 01:40:50,080
Lord of hosts.
For they shall not be, they

1722
01:40:50,080 --> 01:40:54,720
shall not lead away captive the
daughters of my people, because

1723
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:58,360
of their tenderness, save I
shall visit them with a sore

1724
01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:02,120
curse, even unto destruction.
For they shall not commit

1725
01:41:02,120 --> 01:41:06,240
whoredoms like unto them of old,
saith the Lord of hosts.

1726
01:41:06,600 --> 01:41:10,080
And now behold, my brethren, ye
know that these commandments

1727
01:41:10,160 --> 01:41:14,040
were given unto our father.
Lehigh, Wherefore ye have known

1728
01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:17,360
them before?
And ye have come unto great

1729
01:41:17,360 --> 01:41:21,240
condemnation, for ye have done
these things which ye ought not

1730
01:41:21,240 --> 01:41:25,400
have done.
OK, before you get your

1731
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:28,080
explanation, there's a couple
things that jump out at me here.

1732
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:36,880
OK.
Let's let's just look at, at 31,

1733
01:41:38,360 --> 01:41:40,120
seeing the stars of my
daughters.

1734
01:41:41,680 --> 01:41:44,200
Yeah, in all the lands of my
people and the wickedness and

1735
01:41:44,200 --> 01:41:49,560
the abominations of their
husbands, OK, The abomination of

1736
01:41:49,560 --> 01:41:54,000
their husbands, right.
It doesn't necessarily go into

1737
01:41:54,000 --> 01:42:00,520
what those abominations are in
that verse, but in 32 I think it

1738
01:42:00,520 --> 01:42:02,760
is.
Or 33.

1739
01:42:02,760 --> 01:42:06,560
Excuse me, I think it might
actually give us.

1740
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:11,040
Captivity.
Yes, lead away, captive.

1741
01:42:11,440 --> 01:42:16,920
The daughters of my people.
I'm just throwing this out

1742
01:42:16,920 --> 01:42:23,240
there.
Could this be a case of men

1743
01:42:24,440 --> 01:42:27,040
performing Warren Jeffsie kind
of acts?

1744
01:42:27,880 --> 01:42:31,160
And yes, Warren Jeffs, so.
So, yeah, like, like, like, so,

1745
01:42:31,160 --> 01:42:34,200
like, you know, leading the
captive of the daughters of my

1746
01:42:34,200 --> 01:42:37,080
people that, you know, so kind
of like sex slavery kind of

1747
01:42:38,160 --> 01:42:41,600
basically human.
So trafficking and those kinds

1748
01:42:41,600 --> 01:42:44,680
of extreme abuses, right?
Yes, yes.

1749
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:48,680
In addition to things like
Warren Jeffs did, where he used

1750
01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:53,640
a most holy principle to
manipulate people into being

1751
01:42:53,640 --> 01:42:57,480
subject to his whims and his
desires, Right.

1752
01:42:57,640 --> 01:43:00,200
I think that could be another
form of captivity here.

1753
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:08,520
But nothing here really leads me
to believe that the Lord is

1754
01:43:08,520 --> 01:43:11,000
necessarily saying polygamy's a
bad thing.

1755
01:43:11,400 --> 01:43:15,320
I think he's speaking to a very
distinct group of people on

1756
01:43:15,320 --> 01:43:18,080
this.
He is speaking to some people

1757
01:43:18,080 --> 01:43:21,960
who are doing some very direct
things and he's got some pretty

1758
01:43:21,960 --> 01:43:25,000
strong words to say.
Do you think I'm off base there

1759
01:43:25,000 --> 01:43:28,400
at all, Jacob?
Oh, I I think that's totally

1760
01:43:28,400 --> 01:43:32,160
valid interpretation.
And you know, even if you go

1761
01:43:32,160 --> 01:43:35,080
back to verse 23, because that's
that, they'll say, you got to

1762
01:43:35,080 --> 01:43:38,000
start with verse 23 about the
word of God burdens me because

1763
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:40,880
of your grocer crimes before
Behold, thus saith the Lord,

1764
01:43:41,120 --> 01:43:44,200
This people begin to wax
iniquity, for they understand

1765
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:47,160
not the Scriptures, for they
seek to excuse themselves in

1766
01:43:47,160 --> 01:43:49,480
committing whoredoms because of
the things which were written

1767
01:43:49,480 --> 01:43:51,920
concerning David and Solomon.
His son.

1768
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:55,200
The old David and Solomon truly
had many wives and concubines.

1769
01:43:55,360 --> 01:43:57,880
Which thing was an abomination
before me, saith the Lord?

1770
01:43:58,120 --> 01:44:01,040
Wherefore, Thus saith the Lord,
I have led this people forth out

1771
01:44:01,040 --> 01:44:03,240
of the land of Jerusalem by the
power of mine arm that I might

1772
01:44:03,240 --> 01:44:06,480
raise up unto me a righteous
branch from the fruits of the

1773
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:09,480
fruit of the loins of Joseph.
Wherefore I, the Lord, will not

1774
01:44:09,480 --> 01:44:11,760
suffer this people shall do like
unto them, and fold.

1775
01:44:11,960 --> 01:44:14,120
Wherefore, my brethren, hear me
and hear me, and hearken to the

1776
01:44:14,120 --> 01:44:16,120
word of the Lord.
For there shall not be any man

1777
01:44:16,120 --> 01:44:19,280
among you save it.
There shall not any man of you

1778
01:44:19,720 --> 01:44:22,840
have save it be one wife and
concubines, he shall have none.

1779
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:25,200
For I, the Lord God, delight in
the chastity of women, and

1780
01:44:25,200 --> 01:44:27,000
whoredoms are an abomination
before me.

1781
01:44:27,000 --> 01:44:29,960
Thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
Wherefore this people shall keep

1782
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:33,120
my commandments, saith the Lord
of Hosts, or cursed be the land

1783
01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:35,880
for their sakes.
For if I will saith the Lord of

1784
01:44:35,880 --> 01:44:38,440
Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I
will command my people,

1785
01:44:38,440 --> 01:44:40,520
otherwise they shall hearken
unto these things.

1786
01:44:40,680 --> 01:44:44,160
So like you say, there's
contextual things about this

1787
01:44:44,480 --> 01:44:47,120
that would imply we don't, you
know, just like with First

1788
01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:49,760
Corinthians 7 we were talking
about, you know, there's

1789
01:44:49,920 --> 01:44:52,160
different, well, there's missing
context there.

1790
01:44:52,160 --> 01:44:55,120
And Joseph Smith filled in the
context of First Corinthians 7

1791
01:44:55,400 --> 01:44:59,120
explained that Paul was speaking
about mystery and work in

1792
01:44:59,120 --> 01:44:59,840
general.
Right.

1793
01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:02,760
And this seems to be
contextually, if you're taking

1794
01:45:02,760 --> 01:45:07,680
the totality of scripture, you
know something they're doing in

1795
01:45:07,680 --> 01:45:10,480
their practice of polygamy was
wrong enough.

1796
01:45:10,800 --> 01:45:15,080
And I think your interpretation
is a fairly, you know, good

1797
01:45:15,080 --> 01:45:17,320
interpretation.
That's something I think we got

1798
01:45:17,320 --> 01:45:19,280
should give credit, Ben.
I think Ben Shaffer was one of

1799
01:45:19,280 --> 01:45:21,960
the first people I heard argue
that interpretation.

1800
01:45:21,960 --> 01:45:25,280
I'm not sure if he came up with
it or not, but you know that

1801
01:45:25,280 --> 01:45:29,600
these men were doing abusive
things and things that, you

1802
01:45:29,600 --> 01:45:32,240
know, you could say that there
are things that David and

1803
01:45:32,240 --> 01:45:35,520
Solomon did that were abusive
and against, you know, righteous

1804
01:45:35,520 --> 01:45:38,600
plural marriage.
And so, you know, you can see

1805
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:41,360
these not citing back to
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

1806
01:45:41,360 --> 01:45:44,440
They're, you know, he's saying
they're doing awful things like

1807
01:45:44,440 --> 01:45:48,600
what David and Solomon did.
So, you know, I think that's

1808
01:45:48,600 --> 01:45:52,360
totally a fair interpretation.
And so then the the battle, one

1809
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:56,320
of the battles is over verse 30,
where if I will say at the Lord

1810
01:45:56,320 --> 01:45:58,920
of Hosts raise up seed unto me,
I will command my people,

1811
01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:01,560
otherwise they shall hearken
unto these things.

1812
01:46:01,920 --> 01:46:06,000
Now, I actually had a fault, a
guy who was more in the Denver

1813
01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:10,960
Snuffer camp and acknowledged
that he says contextually this

1814
01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:13,520
seems to be indicating the one
place in the law of Moses where

1815
01:46:13,520 --> 01:46:16,000
polygamy is commanded.
You know, it's it's like this is

1816
01:46:16,000 --> 01:46:20,280
where the, you know, raising the
leverite air airship, you know,

1817
01:46:20,280 --> 01:46:23,680
leverite marriage would come
into play for God commands the

1818
01:46:23,680 --> 01:46:26,120
people to raise up seed.
Otherwise they should hearken

1819
01:46:26,120 --> 01:46:29,160
unto the sinks.
So that's an interesting

1820
01:46:29,160 --> 01:46:32,760
interpretation.
But you know obviously we we saw

1821
01:46:32,760 --> 01:46:34,920
other verses in the Old
Testament that indicated that

1822
01:46:34,920 --> 01:46:39,240
God commanded polygamy and other
contexts And so you know God

1823
01:46:39,240 --> 01:46:42,840
King, you know Jacob too is not
giving you the full story is

1824
01:46:42,840 --> 01:46:44,400
why.
I would say first of all and I

1825
01:46:44,400 --> 01:46:47,960
would say verse 30, there are
people who are antagonistic to

1826
01:46:47,960 --> 01:46:51,280
plural marriage who interpret
this as an exception for

1827
01:46:51,280 --> 01:46:53,040
polygamy.
So I mentioned there was a

1828
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:55,440
person who was more in the
Denver Snuffer camp who

1829
01:46:55,440 --> 01:47:00,320
interpreted it as an exception.
And even William Law in one of

1830
01:47:00,320 --> 01:47:03,960
his later art later letters in
the 1880s said, I seem to

1831
01:47:03,960 --> 01:47:06,560
remember there was a verse in
the Book of Mormon that gave a a

1832
01:47:06,560 --> 01:47:10,200
loophole exception for polygamy
and he's like, I haven't read

1833
01:47:10,200 --> 01:47:13,440
that book in decades but I
remember that being there.

1834
01:47:13,440 --> 01:47:17,440
And so he's anti polygamy and he
says it, you know, and he's he

1835
01:47:17,440 --> 01:47:21,760
sees that this verse seems to be
a loophole exception for

1836
01:47:21,760 --> 01:47:24,760
polygamy.
And you know, this is actually

1837
01:47:24,760 --> 01:47:29,360
something that we can show goes
back to 1844 and actually to

1838
01:47:29,360 --> 01:47:30,960
Joseph Smith, this
interpretation.

1839
01:47:31,160 --> 01:47:36,200
So William Smith, Joseph Smith's
brother, wrote A Pro A Defense

1840
01:47:36,200 --> 01:47:39,640
of Polygamy, A pamphlet
defending polygamy called The

1841
01:47:39,680 --> 01:47:43,440
Elder's Pocket Companion in
1844.

1842
01:47:43,720 --> 01:47:49,680
And this was eventually got
published years later, even

1843
01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:52,080
though there were references to
it in 1844.

1844
01:47:52,080 --> 01:47:56,000
But we don't actually have the
text until John Sheen.

1845
01:47:56,120 --> 01:47:59,760
So William Smith's one of the
top guys who was working with

1846
01:47:59,760 --> 01:48:01,320
William Smith when he started a
church.

1847
01:48:01,360 --> 01:48:06,440
Isaac Sheen inherited a bunch of
William Smith's documents and

1848
01:48:06,440 --> 01:48:11,240
his son John Sheen got inherited
those documents from his father

1849
01:48:11,240 --> 01:48:13,920
Isaac Sheen.
And he published this Elder's

1850
01:48:13,920 --> 01:48:17,720
Pocket companion.
And in it William Smith quotes

1851
01:48:17,720 --> 01:48:23,320
Jacob 2:30 as a verse using the
different he he lists it with a

1852
01:48:23,320 --> 01:48:25,120
number of other pro polygamy
verses.

1853
01:48:25,320 --> 01:48:29,480
So he clearly saw that as an
exception clause permitting

1854
01:48:29,480 --> 01:48:33,120
polygamy.
And George A Smith actually said

1855
01:48:33,120 --> 01:48:36,800
that Joseph Smith also
interpreted it that way as well.

1856
01:48:37,000 --> 01:48:40,160
So George A Smith observed that
when Joseph Smith was confronted

1857
01:48:40,160 --> 01:48:43,520
with Jacob chapter 2 in the Book
of Mormon, the prophet cited

1858
01:48:43,520 --> 01:48:46,960
passage in the chapter that
said, for if I will say at the

1859
01:48:46,960 --> 01:48:49,800
Lord of Hosts raise up seed unto
me, I will command my people.

1860
01:48:50,040 --> 01:48:53,360
And that Joseph followed this
verse by saying God has

1861
01:48:53,360 --> 01:48:57,080
commanded us.
So you know that's going back to

1862
01:48:57,080 --> 01:48:59,120
Joseph Smith.
And I think that's pretty

1863
01:48:59,120 --> 01:49:03,040
authoritative if Joseph Smith
interpreted it that way.

1864
01:49:03,560 --> 01:49:07,640
So you know that that that deals
with part of that verse.

1865
01:49:07,640 --> 01:49:14,320
So the other part that comes up
in in is is a question, is verse

1866
01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:18,400
34 references, You know, now
behold my brother and you know

1867
01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:20,560
these commandments were given to
our father Lehigh.

1868
01:49:20,840 --> 01:49:22,800
You've known them before and
you've come under great

1869
01:49:22,800 --> 01:49:25,080
condemnation.
So it's kind of vague what these

1870
01:49:25,080 --> 01:49:27,200
commandments were.
You could interpret it as just

1871
01:49:27,200 --> 01:49:30,200
being, you know, don't commit
whoredoms, don't do the sins of

1872
01:49:30,200 --> 01:49:33,160
them of old.
But if you get to chapter 3 and

1873
01:49:33,160 --> 01:49:36,640
look at verse 5, behold, the
Lamanites, your brethren, whom

1874
01:49:36,640 --> 01:49:39,000
you hate because of their
filthiness, the cursings which

1875
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:41,680
have come upon their skins, are
more righteous than you.

1876
01:49:41,680 --> 01:49:44,320
For they have not forgotten the
commandment of the Lord, which

1877
01:49:44,320 --> 01:49:47,200
was given unto our Father.
That they should have saved were

1878
01:49:47,200 --> 01:49:51,080
one wife and concubines they
should have done, and there

1879
01:49:51,080 --> 01:49:53,880
should be no, there should not
be whoredoms committed among

1880
01:49:53,880 --> 01:49:56,160
them.
So there's a commandment that

1881
01:49:56,160 --> 01:50:00,200
they said was given to our
Father Lehigh that they should

1882
01:50:00,200 --> 01:50:03,240
have saved but be one wife.
So I don't think, I think

1883
01:50:03,240 --> 01:50:07,160
contextually this wasn't about
Lehi having one wife, but the

1884
01:50:07,160 --> 01:50:10,920
early Nephite population.
And this is where Orson Pratt

1885
01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:16,840
says this was the only time in
all of scripture that the that

1886
01:50:16,840 --> 01:50:20,240
there was a command forbidding
polygamy was given to a select

1887
01:50:20,240 --> 01:50:22,720
group of people.
And so this is what Orson Pratt

1888
01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:26,200
said about it, and I personally
tend to agree with his

1889
01:50:26,200 --> 01:50:28,760
interpretation.
He said, let us now come to the

1890
01:50:28,760 --> 01:50:32,040
record In the Book of Mormon.
When the Lord LED forth Lehigh

1891
01:50:32,040 --> 01:50:35,200
and Nephi and Ishmael and his
two sons and five daughters out

1892
01:50:35,200 --> 01:50:38,280
of the land of Jerusalem to the
land of America, the males and

1893
01:50:38,280 --> 01:50:40,000
females were about equal in
number.

1894
01:50:40,120 --> 01:50:43,880
There was Nephi, Sam, Laman, and
Lemuel, the four sons of Lehigh

1895
01:50:44,240 --> 01:50:45,760
and Zoram brought out of
Jerusalem.

1896
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:47,760
How many daughters of Ishmael
were unmarried?

1897
01:50:48,120 --> 01:50:50,960
Just five.
Would it have been just under

1898
01:50:50,960 --> 01:50:53,840
these circumstances to ordain
plurality among them?

1899
01:50:54,200 --> 01:50:55,400
No.
Why?

1900
01:50:55,400 --> 01:50:58,520
Because the males and females
were equal number, and they were

1901
01:50:58,520 --> 01:51:00,240
all under the guidance of the
Almighty.

1902
01:51:00,400 --> 01:51:02,960
Hence it would have been unjust.
And the Lord gave a revelation,

1903
01:51:03,160 --> 01:51:06,000
the only one on record, I
believe, in which a command was

1904
01:51:06,000 --> 01:51:09,880
ever given to any branch of the
of Israel to be confined to the

1905
01:51:09,880 --> 01:51:14,400
monogamic system.
In this case the Lord, through

1906
01:51:14,400 --> 01:51:16,360
His servant Lehigh, gave a
command that they should have

1907
01:51:16,360 --> 01:51:18,760
but one wife.
The Lord had a perfect right to

1908
01:51:18,760 --> 01:51:21,000
vary the commands of this
respect, acquaintance of

1909
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:23,880
circumstances as he did and
others recorded in the Bible.

1910
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:26,600
There we find that the domestic
relations were governed

1911
01:51:26,600 --> 01:51:29,960
according to the mind and will
of God and were varied according

1912
01:51:29,960 --> 01:51:32,800
to circumstances as he thought
proper.

1913
01:51:33,480 --> 01:51:36,840
So he basically saying they were
too small of a population at

1914
01:51:36,840 --> 01:51:40,720
that time for polygamy to work.
So he sees it as a temporary

1915
01:51:40,720 --> 01:51:45,320
command based off of the not
having the the the numbers for

1916
01:51:45,320 --> 01:51:49,160
it to really work.
So, and I, I, I personally like

1917
01:51:49,160 --> 01:51:51,720
that interpretation.
You know, it's my personal

1918
01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:54,520
opinion And it kind of goes
along with something that

1919
01:51:54,520 --> 01:51:59,200
Brigham Young said Brigham Young
made this comment about.

1920
01:51:59,240 --> 01:52:02,280
So people will say, well, how
come it's just Adam and Eve at

1921
01:52:02,280 --> 01:52:05,320
the beginning of the world, You
know, if if polygamy is the

1922
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:08,960
eternal law, why, why?
And so we have Adam having

1923
01:52:08,960 --> 01:52:11,960
multiple wives, right, according
to the Adam God doctrine and

1924
01:52:11,960 --> 01:52:14,880
they're, you know, each wife
gets her own world.

1925
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:17,160
So the question is why does each
wife get her own world?

1926
01:52:17,160 --> 01:52:20,640
Why is there kind of this, you
know, monogamy to start things

1927
01:52:20,640 --> 01:52:23,120
off.
And Brigham Young kind of said

1928
01:52:23,120 --> 01:52:25,680
this about it.
He said it is no matter with

1929
01:52:25,680 --> 01:52:28,400
regards to the monogamy of
Father Adam and Mother Eve.

1930
01:52:28,560 --> 01:52:31,000
They were just enough to start
the work of populating the

1931
01:52:31,040 --> 01:52:33,000
earth.
If man had lived as he ought to

1932
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:35,960
have lived, the earth would have
been peopled quite soon enough

1933
01:52:35,960 --> 01:52:39,800
and to its utmost capacity.
But there is enough upon it now.

1934
01:52:39,800 --> 01:52:42,640
And if men will hearken to obey
the truth, and will cease their

1935
01:52:42,640 --> 01:52:45,440
adulterous practices and
whoredoms, cease their

1936
01:52:45,440 --> 01:52:48,440
wickedness with the opposite
sex, and repent of their sins,

1937
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:51,480
we will fling up at once and
have but one wife and there.

1938
01:52:51,480 --> 01:52:53,920
And if there are two or three
women left about among us

1939
01:52:53,920 --> 01:52:56,600
without husbands, we will give
them to the best man we can

1940
01:52:56,600 --> 01:52:58,880
find.
The reason the Lord requires His

1941
01:52:58,880 --> 01:53:02,280
people to practice the principle
of celestial marriage is to save

1942
01:53:02,280 --> 01:53:04,800
those who are willing to be
saved, to gather the fear in

1943
01:53:04,800 --> 01:53:07,320
heart those who will hearken to
and receive the gospel.

1944
01:53:07,400 --> 01:53:11,000
We have a great many more women
than men in this church, because

1945
01:53:11,000 --> 01:53:13,120
more of them are inclined to
believe the gospel.

1946
01:53:13,360 --> 01:53:16,280
A great many more females than
males leave their families and

1947
01:53:16,280 --> 01:53:17,480
friends together with the
Saints.

1948
01:53:17,760 --> 01:53:20,480
And for this reason there are
more women than men here.

1949
01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:23,720
And they will try to rebuttal
this by saying population

1950
01:53:23,720 --> 01:53:27,680
statistics show that there were,
you know, pretty close number of

1951
01:53:27,680 --> 01:53:30,280
men and women in Utah.
But that's not talking about

1952
01:53:30,280 --> 01:53:34,360
faithful members of the church.
Brigham saying that among the

1953
01:53:34,360 --> 01:53:37,560
faithful members of the church,
there's a lot more women than

1954
01:53:37,560 --> 01:53:40,040
men.
And so polygamy becomes

1955
01:53:40,160 --> 01:53:43,800
absolutely, you know, it becomes
a duty to the men to be willing

1956
01:53:43,800 --> 01:53:46,840
to take righteous women as wives
and to raise the righteous

1957
01:53:46,840 --> 01:53:53,440
posterity with them.
And sorry, I I I have my train

1958
01:53:53,440 --> 01:53:55,640
of thought here.
No, you're you're good while.

1959
01:53:55,680 --> 01:53:57,560
You.
While you get that back, let me

1960
01:53:57,560 --> 01:53:59,800
say this.
The church is still facing that

1961
01:53:59,800 --> 01:54:02,480
problem, right?
It wasn't more than two or three

1962
01:54:02,480 --> 01:54:05,560
years ago there was an article
that came out that said there

1963
01:54:05,560 --> 01:54:11,280
were more active female members
of the LDS church than male,

1964
01:54:11,480 --> 01:54:12,800
right?
Or.

1965
01:54:13,040 --> 01:54:16,040
And and that in conjunction with
that, you had guys who were

1966
01:54:16,040 --> 01:54:19,560
failing to leave home become
men, those sorts of things.

1967
01:54:19,560 --> 01:54:23,400
And they were lamenting this
fact, this.

1968
01:54:24,440 --> 01:54:29,040
I don't think it's out of the
realm of reality to say women

1969
01:54:29,040 --> 01:54:31,560
are usually way more faithful
than men are when it comes to

1970
01:54:31,560 --> 01:54:36,080
the gospel, right.
And and and so we're we're not

1971
01:54:36,080 --> 01:54:38,320
talking about the greater world,
right.

1972
01:54:38,320 --> 01:54:41,080
We're not talking about New
York.

1973
01:54:41,080 --> 01:54:44,560
We're not talking about Los
Angeles, right?

1974
01:54:45,000 --> 01:54:47,880
This is different.
And we're not even talking about

1975
01:54:47,880 --> 01:54:50,920
like the state of Utah where the
population probably is pretty

1976
01:54:50,920 --> 01:54:53,360
similar, but we're talking about
in the church, right.

1977
01:54:53,480 --> 01:54:57,280
So it's you have that disparity
in the church today.

1978
01:54:57,800 --> 01:55:01,240
So it would be a blessing if
that was restored for the

1979
01:55:01,280 --> 01:55:05,440
members of the LDS Church today.
And so that brings that actually

1980
01:55:05,440 --> 01:55:08,440
brings me back to my thought.
You actually caught my train

1981
01:55:08,440 --> 01:55:10,520
back, my my mental train back on
track.

1982
01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:13,320
So Brigham Young said when it
comes to accepting the

1983
01:55:13,320 --> 01:55:16,840
principles of the gospel, there
are far more women who are

1984
01:55:16,840 --> 01:55:21,600
willing to accept it than men.
So that's something that he

1985
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:25,400
anecdotally noticed and I I I
find that pretty compelling as

1986
01:55:25,400 --> 01:55:28,720
well.
So, but what's interesting, we

1987
01:55:28,720 --> 01:55:32,040
have this commandment to the
Nephites, early Nephites to have

1988
01:55:32,040 --> 01:55:35,400
but one wife.
But there seems to be something

1989
01:55:35,400 --> 01:55:40,320
interesting in the story of that
Nephi gives at first Nephi about

1990
01:55:40,520 --> 01:55:44,960
Lehi's family relations.
That seems to kind of indicate

1991
01:55:44,960 --> 01:55:47,120
that Lehi might have been a
polygamist.

1992
01:55:47,640 --> 01:55:50,120
I don't know if you've had
anyone talk to you about that

1993
01:55:50,120 --> 01:55:56,960
before, or see the see kind of
the SO in first Nephi 18 verse

1994
01:55:56,960 --> 01:56:02,760
17, it references Nephi saying
Now my father Lehigh had said

1995
01:56:02,760 --> 01:56:05,560
many things unto him and also
unto the sons of Ishmael, but

1996
01:56:05,560 --> 01:56:08,400
behold, they did breathe out
much threats against anyone that

1997
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:11,320
should speak for me.
My parents being stricken in

1998
01:56:11,320 --> 01:56:13,960
years and having suffered much
grief because of their children,

1999
01:56:14,200 --> 01:56:17,880
they were brought down, yay,
even upon their sick beds, they

2000
01:56:17,880 --> 01:56:21,440
said, because then going on
verse 18, because of their grief

2001
01:56:21,440 --> 01:56:24,200
and much sorrow and the iniquity
of my brethren, they were

2002
01:56:24,200 --> 01:56:26,960
brought near even to be carried
out at this time to meet their

2003
01:56:26,960 --> 01:56:28,840
God.
Yeah, their Gray hairs were

2004
01:56:28,840 --> 01:56:31,600
about to be brought down to lie
low in the dust.

2005
01:56:31,800 --> 01:56:35,440
They even, they were near to be
cast with sorrow into a watery

2006
01:56:35,440 --> 01:56:38,640
grave.
So there's this context, Nephi's

2007
01:56:38,640 --> 01:56:43,920
painting, this picture of his
father and mother being elderly

2008
01:56:43,920 --> 01:56:48,200
at that point, right.
They are elderly but Neath.

2009
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:53,480
But Lehigh has two young sons in
the wilderness, right.

2010
01:56:53,480 --> 01:57:00,240
Joseph and Jacob and and so you
gotta ask yourself, you know did

2011
01:57:00,240 --> 01:57:03,760
he have these women with Sarah.
And so Sarah, you know, we we

2012
01:57:03,760 --> 01:57:09,200
have in the story had, you know,
the the the sons and and so it

2013
01:57:09,200 --> 01:57:11,960
would be odd.
It would be kind of odd if she

2014
01:57:11,960 --> 01:57:14,440
would have all these kind of
more adult children and then all

2015
01:57:14,440 --> 01:57:18,000
of a sudden, you know, having.
I mean, it's not outside of the

2016
01:57:18,000 --> 01:57:21,360
realm of possibility I guess,
but it would at least be odd for

2017
01:57:21,360 --> 01:57:25,200
her to all of a sudden be having
more younger children in the

2018
01:57:25,200 --> 01:57:25,920
will.
You.

2019
01:57:26,800 --> 01:57:29,360
Know all of her children.
Will never pick up on.

2020
01:57:31,840 --> 01:57:34,960
That and and so the theory.
Well, at least one theory is

2021
01:57:34,960 --> 01:57:38,800
that maybe after Ishmael died
that Lehigh married Ishmael's

2022
01:57:38,800 --> 01:57:44,120
wife is 1 potential theory that
you know that it's it's

2023
01:57:44,120 --> 01:57:46,000
speculative.
It's completely speculative, but

2024
01:57:46,000 --> 01:57:51,320
it's plausible, right?
And and what's interesting we're

2025
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:59,000
talking about Jacob and Joseph
is you know, Nephi refers to.

2026
01:57:59,040 --> 01:58:03,920
And this isn't going back to 3rd
what first Nephi 1819.

2027
01:58:03,920 --> 01:58:07,560
After referencing his parents
being elderly, he says in Jacob

2028
01:58:07,560 --> 01:58:11,760
and Joseph also being young,
young, having need of much

2029
01:58:11,760 --> 01:58:15,400
nourishment were grieved because
of the afflictions of their

2030
01:58:15,400 --> 01:58:17,680
mother.
And so he's referencing their

2031
01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:21,480
mother kind of not he says their
mother, not our mother.

2032
01:58:22,000 --> 01:58:27,520
So that could be, that could be
an, you know, implying plural

2033
01:58:27,520 --> 01:58:29,080
marriage.
I think that's definitely an

2034
01:58:29,080 --> 01:58:33,880
interesting possibility in this,
you know, when you're reading

2035
01:58:33,880 --> 01:58:37,040
between the lines because, you
know, the Book of Mormon makes

2036
01:58:37,040 --> 01:58:40,560
it clear that it's trying to
leave out the higher principles

2037
01:58:40,560 --> 01:58:42,680
of the gospel, right?
It's generally just about the

2038
01:58:42,680 --> 01:58:46,120
first principles, the milk.
You know, the, you know, faith

2039
01:58:46,120 --> 01:58:50,360
in Christ, you know, repentance,
baptism, you know, you know all

2040
01:58:50,360 --> 01:58:52,800
those, you know, essential first
principles.

2041
01:58:52,800 --> 01:58:56,720
And it explicitly says that, you
know, there were things that

2042
01:58:56,720 --> 01:59:00,720
were being that they were being
careful not to include in the

2043
01:59:00,720 --> 01:59:02,560
record.
And so this kind of actually

2044
01:59:02,560 --> 01:59:06,680
gets to a little, ex the little
article that Ogden Kraut wrote

2045
01:59:06,680 --> 01:59:09,600
on the Book of Mormon and
polygamy, which I think is

2046
01:59:09,600 --> 01:59:11,520
really great.
He said he wrote this.

2047
01:59:11,520 --> 01:59:14,680
He said it seems rather strange
that the Nephites would include

2048
01:59:14,680 --> 01:59:18,240
in their historical record the
3rd and 4th chapters of Isaiah,

2049
01:59:18,400 --> 01:59:21,040
which tell about a war so
terrible that six out of seven

2050
01:59:21,040 --> 01:59:24,920
men would be killed and seven
women would take hold of one man

2051
01:59:24,920 --> 01:59:29,080
to live plural marriage.
That second Nephi 14-1, quoting

2052
01:59:29,080 --> 01:59:32,680
from Isaiah.
Then the next verse says, in

2053
01:59:32,680 --> 01:59:35,360
that day the branch of the Lord
shall be beautiful and glorious.

2054
01:59:35,520 --> 01:59:37,840
Such an inclusion would
certainly encourage them to

2055
01:59:37,840 --> 01:59:41,120
accept plural marriage as a
desired, correct and honorable

2056
01:59:41,120 --> 01:59:43,600
principle.
But Nephi knew many things he

2057
01:59:43,600 --> 01:59:45,800
could not reveal to his brothers
or other family members.

2058
01:59:45,960 --> 01:59:49,200
He said I was forbidden, that I
should write the remainder of

2059
01:59:49,200 --> 01:59:52,720
the things which I saw and heard
verse Nephi 1428.

2060
01:59:53,000 --> 01:59:55,640
And again my eyes have beheld
great things.

2061
01:59:55,640 --> 01:59:58,600
Yeah, even too great for men.
Therefore I was bitten that I

2062
01:59:58,600 --> 02:00:02,520
should not write them second
Nephi 425, but I said that he

2063
02:00:02,520 --> 02:00:06,160
wanted to write more, saying I
was about to write more, but I

2064
02:00:06,160 --> 02:00:08,880
am forbidden ether 13 through
13.

2065
02:00:09,120 --> 02:00:12,000
This appears again and again in
the Nephite records.

2066
02:00:12,320 --> 02:00:16,280
Mormon explains why only a very
small part of the Savior's

2067
02:00:16,280 --> 02:00:20,080
teachings could be recorded at
that time, and this is in 3rd

2068
02:00:20,080 --> 02:00:23,720
Nephi 26.
Starting with verse 6, going to

2069
02:00:23,720 --> 02:00:26,000
verse 11.
And now there can't be written

2070
02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:29,640
in this book even 100th part of
the things which Jesus to truly

2071
02:00:29,640 --> 02:00:32,480
teach unto the people.
But behold, the plates of Nephi

2072
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:34,760
do contain the more part of the
things which he taught the

2073
02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:36,840
people.
And these things have I written

2074
02:00:36,840 --> 02:00:38,760
which are lesser part of the
things which he taught the

2075
02:00:38,760 --> 02:00:41,080
people.
I've written them to the intent

2076
02:00:41,080 --> 02:00:43,360
that they might be brought again
unto this people from the

2077
02:00:43,360 --> 02:00:47,000
Gentiles, according to the words
which Jesus hath spoken.

2078
02:00:47,280 --> 02:00:49,120
And when they shall have
received this which is

2079
02:00:49,120 --> 02:00:52,800
expedient, that they should have
first to try their faith, and if

2080
02:00:52,800 --> 02:00:55,640
it's so be they shall believe
these things, then shall the

2081
02:00:55,640 --> 02:00:59,120
greater things be made manifest
to them, And if it's so be that

2082
02:00:59,120 --> 02:01:01,240
they will not believe these
things, then shall the greater

2083
02:01:01,240 --> 02:01:04,360
things be withheld from them
unto their condemnation.

2084
02:01:04,840 --> 02:01:07,520
Behold, I was about to write
them all, which were engraven

2085
02:01:07,520 --> 02:01:10,520
upon the plates of Nephi.
But the Lord forbid it, saying I

2086
02:01:10,520 --> 02:01:12,560
will try it the faith of my
people.

2087
02:01:13,040 --> 02:01:15,160
And so he's very explicit that
he's only writing the lesser

2088
02:01:15,160 --> 02:01:18,440
things and he's leaving out the
greater principles of the

2089
02:01:18,440 --> 02:01:21,640
gospel.
And you know, this goes along

2090
02:01:21,640 --> 02:01:26,000
with what Jesus said in Mark 727
does not meet to take the

2091
02:01:26,000 --> 02:01:28,840
children's bed bread and cast
them to dogs.

2092
02:01:28,840 --> 02:01:31,560
Or you know about the pearls,
not casting your pearls before

2093
02:01:31,560 --> 02:01:35,640
swine.
So even though so continuing

2094
02:01:35,680 --> 02:01:39,000
Ogden Crap writes that even
though the Book of Mormon seemed

2095
02:01:39,000 --> 02:01:42,360
to avoid the subject of plural
marriage as much as possible and

2096
02:01:42,360 --> 02:01:45,520
even the little that was written
was half hidden in the wording,

2097
02:01:45,800 --> 02:01:48,680
many times it would say a man
had sons and daughters then

2098
02:01:48,680 --> 02:01:50,720
describe so.
So we're getting into kind of

2099
02:01:50,960 --> 02:01:53,600
the righteous polygamist.
So he says even though the Book

2100
02:01:53,600 --> 02:01:57,760
of Mormon tries to leave out the
higher principles, there's hints

2101
02:01:57,760 --> 02:02:00,520
at them in the Book of Mormon
all over the place.

2102
02:02:00,920 --> 02:02:05,880
And one of the ways is that
there are it's, I'd say, almost

2103
02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:10,240
explicit references to righteous
polygamists in the scriptures in

2104
02:02:10,240 --> 02:02:16,680
the Book of Mormon.
So for example, the Amulek who

2105
02:02:16,680 --> 02:02:20,280
was righteous enough to have an
Angel the Lord appeared to him

2106
02:02:20,280 --> 02:02:23,560
and call him to be the
missionary companion of Amulek,

2107
02:02:24,040 --> 02:02:29,760
references the fact that he had
multiple women in his family.

2108
02:02:29,960 --> 02:02:34,280
He said four.
So this is Alma 1011 or behold,

2109
02:02:34,320 --> 02:02:38,040
he hath blessed my house.
He hath blessed me and my women

2110
02:02:38,080 --> 02:02:41,560
and my children and my father
and my kinsfolk.

2111
02:02:41,800 --> 02:02:44,680
So kinsfolk would be like mother
in laws and those other

2112
02:02:44,680 --> 02:02:47,480
relatives that are women, right?
It wouldn't be you wouldn't be

2113
02:02:47,480 --> 02:02:50,800
calling your mother-in-law your
women, You know, some of them

2114
02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:55,600
might try to wiggle out of that.
Yeah, even all my kindred Hathi

2115
02:02:55,600 --> 02:02:58,480
blessed, and the blessing of the
Lord rested upon us according to

2116
02:02:58,480 --> 02:03:01,040
the words which he spake.
So that seems to be a very

2117
02:03:01,040 --> 02:03:06,000
explicit reference that Amulek
had multiple women in his

2118
02:03:06,680 --> 02:03:09,240
family.
Jacob, let me let me let me say

2119
02:03:09,240 --> 02:03:13,880
something here real quick.
So I can't remember who it was

2120
02:03:13,880 --> 02:03:17,880
on the podcast that said this,
but I really liked it.

2121
02:03:18,160 --> 02:03:21,160
And this is not a knock on the
Book of Mormon by any stretch,

2122
02:03:21,640 --> 02:03:25,720
but what it said was, is that
what what this gentleman said

2123
02:03:25,720 --> 02:03:28,880
was is that the Book of Mormon
deals primarily with salvation,

2124
02:03:29,200 --> 02:03:32,640
right.
But the Doctrine and Covenants

2125
02:03:32,640 --> 02:03:35,160
is a text that deals with
exaltation.

2126
02:03:36,280 --> 02:03:41,200
And so you can see how these
kind of played one with another.

2127
02:03:41,200 --> 02:03:43,680
The the Lord basically said, I'm
going to give you another book

2128
02:03:43,680 --> 02:03:48,440
to establish these, these these
lesser principles.

2129
02:03:48,440 --> 02:03:51,200
I guess I I don't want to call
them lesser, but these

2130
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:53,360
foundational principles that's
probably better.

2131
02:03:54,040 --> 02:03:58,240
And then we'll we'll move on to
the Doctrine and Covenants which

2132
02:03:58,240 --> 02:04:03,000
deals with exaltation.
To me, Alma 1011 is something

2133
02:04:03,000 --> 02:04:05,920
that's really hard to get around
because of the grammar that's

2134
02:04:05,920 --> 02:04:09,280
used there, just like you were
saying you're not going.

2135
02:04:09,280 --> 02:04:13,040
He, he's already called out his
daughters right by their their

2136
02:04:13,040 --> 02:04:15,640
title.
Daughters that you know you're

2137
02:04:15,640 --> 02:04:17,960
not gonna call your
mother-in-law or your mother

2138
02:04:17,960 --> 02:04:21,920
your women, right.
So what else is there?

2139
02:04:22,640 --> 02:04:24,120
Right.
You're not gonna refer to your

2140
02:04:24,120 --> 02:04:26,440
sister as that.
What else is there?

2141
02:04:26,440 --> 02:04:31,000
I mean, common sense here would
deduce in in In a Mormon

2142
02:04:31,000 --> 02:04:34,000
context, he's talking about his
wives.

2143
02:04:35,120 --> 02:04:38,720
Yep.
And and this is an anecdote to

2144
02:04:38,800 --> 02:04:43,000
support this.
When I started to study

2145
02:04:43,000 --> 02:04:46,360
fundamentalism and get into, you
know, studying plural marriage

2146
02:04:46,360 --> 02:04:49,560
and all the other doctrines and
you know, it was kind of making

2147
02:04:49,560 --> 02:04:53,960
my family a bit uneasy, you know
at the time with me venturing,

2148
02:04:53,960 --> 02:04:57,240
you know, into the early
teachings, you know.

2149
02:04:57,240 --> 02:05:01,200
And so my, I was still living at
home and my family was doing

2150
02:05:01,200 --> 02:05:05,000
scripture study and a Book of
Mormon in a very big on studying

2151
02:05:05,000 --> 02:05:07,680
the Book of Mormon.
And they were reading the from

2152
02:05:07,680 --> 02:05:10,520
the Book of Mormon for scripture
site and they were reading Alma

2153
02:05:10,520 --> 02:05:13,160
chapter 10.
And they're they're all taking

2154
02:05:13,160 --> 02:05:16,480
turns reading the verses.
And when it came to verse 11,

2155
02:05:17,920 --> 02:05:21,200
one of my younger sisters read
that and she just kind of

2156
02:05:21,200 --> 02:05:25,480
smirked at me because she and
then laughed because she knew it

2157
02:05:25,480 --> 02:05:27,400
was a reference to plural
marriage.

2158
02:05:27,800 --> 02:05:32,520
So it it's just it was it was
obvious enough to her without me

2159
02:05:32,520 --> 02:05:36,560
having to say it.
You know she she saw it for what

2160
02:05:36,560 --> 02:05:39,120
it was, reading it straight out
of the scripture.

2161
02:05:39,120 --> 02:05:43,120
So kind of an unbiased witness
there.

2162
02:05:44,520 --> 02:05:48,560
And so riding on that, Ogden
Kraut said Amulek must have been

2163
02:05:48,560 --> 02:05:51,680
a good man because first of all
he was instructed by an Angel of

2164
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:54,080
God.
He had possibly taken his wife

2165
02:05:54,080 --> 02:05:57,280
some of the widows left from the
many wars, and Amulek blessed

2166
02:05:57,280 --> 02:05:59,600
his wives or women as he called
them.

2167
02:06:00,320 --> 02:06:02,880
And excuse me, and Alma had
blessed his wives or his women

2168
02:06:02,880 --> 02:06:05,920
as he called them, Amulek was
recognized as a righteous man by

2169
02:06:05,920 --> 02:06:08,920
God, and obviously he would have
lived righteously with these

2170
02:06:08,920 --> 02:06:13,040
women.
So another good example is in

2171
02:06:13,040 --> 02:06:16,840
the case of the first king of
the Jaredites, and the text is

2172
02:06:16,840 --> 02:06:19,320
explicit that he was a righteous
man.

2173
02:06:19,320 --> 02:06:22,160
Again, you can talk about the
unrighteous polygamists and

2174
02:06:22,160 --> 02:06:25,120
unrighteous kings in the Book of
Mormon, but this is a righteous

2175
02:06:25,120 --> 02:06:28,280
king who is clearly a
polygamist, even though the text

2176
02:06:28,280 --> 02:06:31,200
doesn't explicitly say it.
It just you can tell by the

2177
02:06:31,200 --> 02:06:37,080
number of children he has.
So this is Ether 6, verse 30.

2178
02:06:37,080 --> 02:06:43,080
And then we'll read from ether 7
verses, one or two, because they

2179
02:06:43,080 --> 02:06:48,960
can they go together.
So he says, And it came, so none

2180
02:06:48,960 --> 02:06:52,120
of I, I think it said none of
Jared's or the brother of

2181
02:06:52,120 --> 02:06:55,240
Jared's descendants were willing
to take the kingship.

2182
02:06:55,240 --> 02:06:58,240
So they decided to choose Oriah
to be the first king of the

2183
02:06:58,240 --> 02:07:00,720
Jaredites.
And verse 30 says, And it came

2184
02:07:00,720 --> 02:07:04,440
to pass that Oriah did walk
humbly before the Lord, and did

2185
02:07:04,440 --> 02:07:07,160
remember how great things the
Lord had done for his father,

2186
02:07:07,160 --> 02:07:10,080
and also taught his people how
great things the Lord had done

2187
02:07:10,080 --> 02:07:12,720
for their fathers.
And it So we then continued to

2188
02:07:13,480 --> 02:07:16,960
verse Chapter 7, verse one.
And it came to pass that Araya

2189
02:07:16,960 --> 02:07:20,520
did execute judgment on the upon
the land and righteousness all

2190
02:07:20,520 --> 02:07:23,600
his days, whose days were
exceedingly many.

2191
02:07:24,520 --> 02:07:28,800
And he begat sons and daughters.
Yahy begat 30 and one among whom

2192
02:07:28,800 --> 02:07:35,200
were 20 and three sons, so 31
children, 23 sons.

2193
02:07:35,480 --> 02:07:39,440
That dude was obviously a
polygamist, you know, And then

2194
02:07:39,440 --> 02:07:43,480
that's me, you know, Ogden Kratt
wrote with 31 children, he had

2195
02:07:43,480 --> 02:07:45,640
to be a polygamist.
And if he was a man of

2196
02:07:45,640 --> 02:07:48,760
righteousness all his days and
he had 31 children in polygamy,

2197
02:07:48,960 --> 02:07:52,360
it must mean that the Lord was
not displeased with him or his

2198
02:07:52,360 --> 02:07:56,560
marriages.
So, you know, clearly, you know,

2199
02:07:56,560 --> 02:08:02,120
he was a polygamist.
The Let's see, there's one other

2200
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:09,640
interesting place in so ether 14
Two references men in in the

2201
02:08:09,640 --> 02:08:13,960
Jaredites, and it says,
wherefore every man to cleave

2202
02:08:13,960 --> 02:08:17,720
unto that which is was his own
with his hands and would not

2203
02:08:17,720 --> 02:08:20,520
borrow, neither would he lend.
And every man kept the hilt of

2204
02:08:20,520 --> 02:08:24,320
his sword in his right hand in
the defense of his property and

2205
02:08:24,320 --> 02:08:27,600
his own life and of his wives
and children.

2206
02:08:27,840 --> 02:08:30,920
So that's just kind of a
interesting reference to

2207
02:08:31,240 --> 02:08:37,120
Jaredites in general practicing
polygamy and the but probably

2208
02:08:37,120 --> 02:08:41,040
the most significant jaredite to
practice polygamy would be

2209
02:08:42,360 --> 02:08:45,040
probably, you know one of the
most righteous individuals in

2210
02:08:45,040 --> 02:08:48,040
the Book of Mormon.
So one of the most faithful men

2211
02:08:48,040 --> 02:08:51,080
described in the Book of Mormon
was the brother of Jared.

2212
02:08:51,360 --> 02:08:55,080
It said of him and there it said
of him that this is ether 12th,

2213
02:08:55,080 --> 02:08:57,440
19 through 20.
And there were many whose faith

2214
02:08:57,440 --> 02:09:01,080
was so exceedingly strong even
before Christ came, who could

2215
02:09:01,080 --> 02:09:05,040
not be kept from, who could not
even not be kept from within the

2216
02:09:05,040 --> 02:09:08,040
veil, but truly saw with their
eyes the things which they had

2217
02:09:08,040 --> 02:09:10,440
beheld with an eye of faith.
And they were glad.

2218
02:09:10,720 --> 02:09:13,320
And behold, we have seen this
record, that one of these was

2219
02:09:13,320 --> 02:09:16,040
the brother of Jared.
Where so great was his faith in

2220
02:09:16,040 --> 02:09:18,960
God, that when God put forth his
finger, he could not hide it

2221
02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:21,880
from the sight of the brother of
Jared, because of his words

2222
02:09:22,000 --> 02:09:25,160
which he had spoken unto him,
which word he had obtained by

2223
02:09:25,160 --> 02:09:27,440
faith.
So because of his great faith,

2224
02:09:27,440 --> 02:09:29,720
the Lord quote could not
withhold anything from his

2225
02:09:29,720 --> 02:09:31,360
sight.
Wherefore he'd showed him

2226
02:09:31,360 --> 02:09:34,800
things, all things, and he could
not be kept with without the

2227
02:09:34,800 --> 02:09:37,000
veil.
He was so inspired that quote,

2228
02:09:37,000 --> 02:09:40,040
the things which he wrote were
mighty, even as thou art unto

2229
02:09:40,040 --> 02:09:42,240
the overpowering of the man to
read them.

2230
02:09:42,600 --> 02:09:45,200
So that's either 12/21 and verse
24.

2231
02:09:45,480 --> 02:09:48,560
Here was a good man, a man whose
conduct, who conducted his life

2232
02:09:48,560 --> 02:09:50,040
as family according to the will
of the Lord.

2233
02:09:50,240 --> 02:09:54,560
He was worthy to raise a large
family with many wives, which is

2234
02:09:54,560 --> 02:09:58,400
what what must have happened as
we read that as we read that in

2235
02:09:58,400 --> 02:10:03,040
Ether 6/20, it states the number
of the sons and daughters of the

2236
02:10:03,040 --> 02:10:06,800
brother of Jared was 20 and two
souls, indicating that he too

2237
02:10:06,800 --> 02:10:08,760
must have had more than one
wife.

2238
02:10:09,120 --> 02:10:12,600
And so that 22 children would be
a lot of women.

2239
02:10:12,760 --> 02:10:17,320
I mean a lot of children for two
women, let alone one woman, you

2240
02:10:17,360 --> 02:10:20,320
know, to give birth to.
Yeah, I mean, look.

2241
02:10:20,320 --> 02:10:23,320
So that's enough.
Back to Ethan Two.

2242
02:10:23,800 --> 02:10:26,560
If that was one woman, I
apologize.

2243
02:10:27,040 --> 02:10:29,240
I mean, that woman was tough as
nails.

2244
02:10:29,240 --> 02:10:33,120
I mean, holy cow, 31 kids.
And then the brother of Jared,

2245
02:10:33,120 --> 02:10:35,520
20 some children.
Come on.

2246
02:10:35,760 --> 02:10:38,240
There's no way that this is
happening without plural

2247
02:10:38,240 --> 02:10:40,240
marriage.
Yep.

2248
02:10:41,440 --> 02:10:44,960
So I think that should set to
rest that even in the most

2249
02:10:44,960 --> 02:10:48,880
correct book that there are
righteous polygamists there.

2250
02:10:49,120 --> 02:10:53,600
And so you can't just blanket,
you know, cite all the examples

2251
02:10:53,600 --> 02:10:57,040
of wicked polygamists in the
Book of Mormon as a blanket

2252
02:10:57,040 --> 02:11:00,160
combination of all polygamy,
because we have explicit

2253
02:11:00,160 --> 02:11:03,040
examples of righteous
polygamists as well.

2254
02:11:03,560 --> 02:11:10,440
Right dude, good stuff.
So I guess one interesting thing

2255
02:11:10,440 --> 02:11:13,520
is in the book of Moses there's
a verse that can be read to

2256
02:11:13,520 --> 02:11:17,720
imply that Noah was a polygamist
as well.

2257
02:11:18,280 --> 02:11:21,200
I'm not sure if you've this is
an interesting one.

2258
02:11:21,200 --> 02:11:26,360
So this is in Moses chapter 8,
verse 12 if you want to read

2259
02:11:26,360 --> 02:11:27,480
that one.
Yep.

2260
02:11:27,480 --> 02:11:28,960
Let me.
Let me get there.

2261
02:11:29,120 --> 02:11:32,680
Moses 812.
OK, Give me a second.

2262
02:11:32,720 --> 02:11:36,440
I'm almost there.
OK And Noah was 40.

2263
02:11:36,520 --> 02:11:37,360
Go ahead.
What's that?

2264
02:11:38,320 --> 02:11:39,840
Nope, Nope, Nope.
That's the right verse.

2265
02:11:39,840 --> 02:11:41,280
I was just second guessing
myself.

2266
02:11:42,400 --> 02:11:45,800
And Noah was 450 years old and
begat Japheth.

2267
02:11:46,240 --> 02:11:51,800
And 42 years afterward he begat
Shem of her who was the mother

2268
02:11:51,800 --> 02:11:55,920
of Japheth.
And when he was 500 years old,

2269
02:11:56,120 --> 02:11:59,240
he begat Ham.
Wow.

2270
02:11:59,240 --> 02:12:02,320
So is there something
interesting said there about

2271
02:12:03,320 --> 02:12:07,840
parentage?
Yeah, the he begat Sham of her.

2272
02:12:08,240 --> 02:12:12,160
Who was the mother of Japheth?
Is that what you're?

2273
02:12:12,160 --> 02:12:13,760
So why would he need to?
Yeah.

2274
02:12:13,760 --> 02:12:16,760
So why would they need to say,
you know, Wouldn't it just be

2275
02:12:16,760 --> 02:12:20,320
implied that she was that they
were begotten by the same mother

2276
02:12:20,320 --> 02:12:24,560
if if they had one argument?
If he only had one wife, right?

2277
02:12:24,800 --> 02:12:29,640
But he seems to be pointing to a
certain lineage here, right?

2278
02:12:30,200 --> 02:12:33,680
Making a connection that Shem
and Japheth had the same mother.

2279
02:12:34,560 --> 02:12:39,960
I also find it interesting here
that they don't necessarily say

2280
02:12:40,560 --> 02:12:44,400
Noah's wife, right?
That would have been easy to do.

2281
02:12:44,400 --> 02:12:49,120
That would have been keeping in
with the the verbiage of the

2282
02:12:49,120 --> 02:12:51,200
time in which this was
translated.

2283
02:12:51,760 --> 02:12:55,400
But for whatever reason, they
leave that out and they they

2284
02:12:55,400 --> 02:12:59,320
seem to be making a distinction
with different parentage.

2285
02:13:01,280 --> 02:13:03,720
Yeah, it seems to be implying
that Cain had a different.

2286
02:13:03,720 --> 02:13:04,760
Not Cain.
Excuse me.

2287
02:13:05,920 --> 02:13:10,160
Ham had a different mother than
Japheth and Shem.

2288
02:13:10,200 --> 02:13:13,200
So this just kind of an
interesting thing there that

2289
02:13:13,200 --> 02:13:17,640
it's that there's more to, you
know, there's more to the

2290
02:13:17,640 --> 02:13:21,440
history of the patriarchs and
the prophets in the scriptures

2291
02:13:21,720 --> 02:13:26,440
than what is at face value.
There's always a little bit

2292
02:13:26,440 --> 02:13:29,200
more.
So, you know, it's just a

2293
02:13:29,200 --> 02:13:32,040
fascinating, you know, little
nugget there.

2294
02:13:32,160 --> 02:13:34,240
That.
Someone pointed out to me years

2295
02:13:34,240 --> 02:13:40,560
ago, so I guess we've we've done
a pretty good job of covering

2296
02:13:40,640 --> 02:13:43,960
not only the Bible but also the
Book of Mormon.

2297
02:13:43,960 --> 02:13:46,880
And there's, you know, polygamy
was sanctioned by God in the

2298
02:13:46,880 --> 02:13:50,640
Bible and commanded by him.
And it was there were clearly

2299
02:13:50,640 --> 02:13:53,000
righteous polygamists in the
Book of Mormon as well.

2300
02:13:54,760 --> 02:14:00,760
But I think I think there's a
fundamental reason why you know

2301
02:14:00,760 --> 02:14:03,720
these the the certain new
movement, you know the the

2302
02:14:03,720 --> 02:14:06,520
doctrine of Christ movement are
so against polygamy.

2303
02:14:06,760 --> 02:14:10,480
And I think the core issue that
is they hate polygamy because

2304
02:14:10,520 --> 02:14:15,440
they have a modern feminist
views and they just and they

2305
02:14:15,640 --> 02:14:19,400
have extremely negative views
towards the patriarchal order.

2306
02:14:19,600 --> 02:14:23,440
The I it stated in the family
Proclamation that you know the

2307
02:14:23,440 --> 02:14:26,200
man is to preside over the
family and righteousness and to

2308
02:14:26,200 --> 02:14:29,800
be kind of a leader and a guide
to his you know to his wives and

2309
02:14:29,800 --> 02:14:33,480
his children.
And this modern egalitarian

2310
02:14:33,480 --> 02:14:39,280
feminism is trying to tear that
down in any way possible And

2311
02:14:39,280 --> 02:14:43,440
they hate polygamy because
polygamy is about having strong

2312
02:14:43,440 --> 02:14:45,760
patriarchs.
You cannot I don't think it's

2313
02:14:45,760 --> 02:14:49,920
possible to successfully lift
polygamy if a husband is not

2314
02:14:49,960 --> 02:14:55,800
being a righteous leader and
strong patriarch to his wives.

2315
02:14:56,200 --> 02:15:00,440
So I I do think that that's the
fundamental issue and the thing

2316
02:15:00,440 --> 02:15:03,640
that I find deceptive by people
like Michelle Stone where she's

2317
02:15:03,640 --> 02:15:06,240
like, I'm just concerned with
what the scriptures say about

2318
02:15:06,240 --> 02:15:07,760
polygamy.
I only care about the

2319
02:15:07,760 --> 02:15:09,840
scriptures.
And then she will spend hours

2320
02:15:09,840 --> 02:15:14,160
trying to twist the scriptures
out of you know, the, you know

2321
02:15:14,200 --> 02:15:17,920
twist the story of Abraham
twist, you know, you know come

2322
02:15:17,920 --> 02:15:21,040
up with her convoluted
interpretations based off of you

2323
02:15:21,040 --> 02:15:23,680
know her how how she personally
feels about it.

2324
02:15:24,080 --> 02:15:27,320
And I only mentioned her
specifically because she has

2325
02:15:27,320 --> 02:15:30,240
specifically, you know, well she
is a public figure of the

2326
02:15:30,240 --> 02:15:32,120
movement.
I think it's fair to call her

2327
02:15:32,120 --> 02:15:35,760
out.
And because she's she's she's

2328
02:15:35,800 --> 02:15:38,800
being disingenuous when she says
I just care about what the

2329
02:15:38,800 --> 02:15:43,840
scriptures say because when I
have she's quoted Brigham Young

2330
02:15:43,840 --> 02:15:46,880
statements about you know the
man being the head and and

2331
02:15:46,880 --> 02:15:48,280
leader of the family.
Right.

2332
02:15:48,640 --> 02:15:51,920
She'll quote those to criticize
Brigham and I'm and I and so I

2333
02:15:52,040 --> 02:15:55,120
one time said I said, well isn't
Brigham just saying what's in

2334
02:15:55,120 --> 02:15:58,520
the scriptures and he just
quoting what's what Sarah says

2335
02:15:58,520 --> 02:16:03,840
about Abraham what you know,
Mary Magdalene says about

2336
02:16:03,840 --> 02:16:07,400
Christ, you know and and she's
like, well we have I said this

2337
02:16:07,400 --> 02:16:09,800
is the patriarchal order.
It's what the you know it's all

2338
02:16:09,800 --> 02:16:13,960
over the scriptures and she goes
well we have better views than

2339
02:16:13,960 --> 02:16:17,800
that now or or she said that
she's she said I'm glad that the

2340
02:16:17,880 --> 02:16:22,240
the church the LDS church has
more has better has better views

2341
02:16:22,240 --> 02:16:24,640
now than what the the scriptures
say.

2342
02:16:24,960 --> 02:16:28,400
And so I'm like you can't
pretend to just be about

2343
02:16:28,400 --> 02:16:31,360
interpreting the scriptures and
and taking your doctrine from

2344
02:16:31,360 --> 02:16:34,760
the scriptures if you don't
actually genuinely care about

2345
02:16:34,760 --> 02:16:36,639
what the scriptures say about
marriage.

2346
02:16:36,639 --> 02:16:38,879
You can't use this.
Say I care about what the.

2347
02:16:38,879 --> 02:16:41,160
I just care about what the
scriptures say about marriage.

2348
02:16:41,360 --> 02:16:45,120
When you're going to throw away
all these scriptures that teach

2349
02:16:45,120 --> 02:16:46,760
the patriarchal order of
marriage.

2350
02:16:46,760 --> 02:16:49,719
And you know it's it's in the
Old Testament, it's in the New

2351
02:16:49,719 --> 02:16:52,719
Testament.
And, you know, some of them

2352
02:16:52,719 --> 02:16:55,120
fight against the temple.
And don't you know we'll fight

2353
02:16:55,120 --> 02:16:57,719
against the endowment because
the endowment as laid down by

2354
02:16:57,719 --> 02:17:00,600
Joseph Smith and and the
apostles after him, taught this

2355
02:17:00,760 --> 02:17:03,600
patriarchal order.
And, you know, but what's

2356
02:17:03,600 --> 02:17:06,879
interesting is, you know, it's
it's not just the early brethren

2357
02:17:06,879 --> 02:17:09,639
that taught this, this, this
goes back anciently.

2358
02:17:09,639 --> 02:17:13,000
This is what the apostles of
Jesus Christ taught as well.

2359
02:17:13,280 --> 02:17:18,280
And so First Corinthians 11
chapter, verses 2 through 3

2360
02:17:18,280 --> 02:17:21,480
state Now, I praise you,
brethren, that ye Remember Me in

2361
02:17:21,480 --> 02:17:25,120
all things and keep the
ordinances as I deliver them to

2362
02:17:25,120 --> 02:17:27,600
you.
So it's an interesting reference

2363
02:17:27,600 --> 02:17:30,559
to keep the ordinances as I've
delivered them to you.

2364
02:17:31,040 --> 02:17:33,559
But then he says in verse 3.
But I would have you know that

2365
02:17:33,559 --> 02:17:36,160
the head of every man is Christ,
and the head of the woman is the

2366
02:17:36,160 --> 02:17:39,120
man, and the head of Christ is
God.

2367
02:17:39,559 --> 02:17:42,080
So he's laying out the
patriarchal order.

2368
02:17:42,400 --> 02:17:45,680
I'm sure it's just, you know,
the society they were in.

2369
02:17:45,680 --> 02:17:48,600
I'm sure it has no lasting
impact on us, Jacob.

2370
02:17:49,120 --> 02:17:52,400
We could just put that to bed.
Michelle Brady Stone is 100%

2371
02:17:52,400 --> 02:17:54,799
correct.
That's sarcasm.

2372
02:17:54,799 --> 02:18:00,719
So yeah, so, so it's, you know
it, that's, you know, one keep,

2373
02:18:00,799 --> 02:18:02,559
you know, it's all over the New
Testament.

2374
02:18:02,559 --> 02:18:05,080
And some will try to dismiss it
as maybe Paul's opinion.

2375
02:18:05,080 --> 02:18:08,040
But I think the celestial order
of marriage is laid out

2376
02:18:08,040 --> 02:18:12,360
beautifully in Ephesians chapter
5, verses 22 through 28.

2377
02:18:12,799 --> 02:18:15,520
Wives, submit yourselves unto
your own husbands as unto the

2378
02:18:15,520 --> 02:18:17,200
Lord.
For the husband is the head of

2379
02:18:17,200 --> 02:18:19,879
the wife, even as Christ is the
head of the church, and he is

2380
02:18:19,879 --> 02:18:22,120
the savior of the body.
Therefore, as the church is

2381
02:18:22,120 --> 02:18:25,680
subject unto Christ, let so let
the wives be be to their own

2382
02:18:25,680 --> 02:18:28,600
husbands and everything Husbands
Love your wives.

2383
02:18:28,600 --> 02:18:32,160
Even as Christ also loved the
church, and gave himself for it,

2384
02:18:32,400 --> 02:18:34,879
that he might sanctify and
cleanse it with the washing of

2385
02:18:34,879 --> 02:18:38,240
water by the Word, that he might
present to it to himself a

2386
02:18:38,240 --> 02:18:41,440
glorious church, not having spot
or wrinkle or any such thing,

2387
02:18:41,680 --> 02:18:45,240
but that it should be holy and
without blemish, so ought men to

2388
02:18:45,240 --> 02:18:47,240
love their wives as their own
bodies.

2389
02:18:47,360 --> 02:18:49,840
He that loveth his wife loveth
himself.

2390
02:18:50,360 --> 02:18:55,080
So I I think that's you know, a
beautiful illustration of what a

2391
02:18:55,080 --> 02:18:58,000
celestial marriage should be
between husband and wife.

2392
02:18:58,719 --> 02:19:01,440
And you know some people might
try to think Paul might have

2393
02:19:01,440 --> 02:19:03,920
just had his own opinion and
might have just been stating his

2394
02:19:03,920 --> 02:19:09,080
own cultural opinion.
But in First Corinthians 1434 he

2395
02:19:09,080 --> 02:19:12,120
said he said that you know women
are commanded to be under

2396
02:19:12,120 --> 02:19:16,080
obedience as also saith the law.
So he's referencing, going back

2397
02:19:16,080 --> 02:19:19,920
to the Torah, that that's what's
you know in, you know, in

2398
02:19:19,920 --> 02:19:23,879
Genesis chapter 3 and and and in
other places in the Torah as

2399
02:19:23,879 --> 02:19:26,799
well.
So Paul.

2400
02:19:26,920 --> 02:19:30,160
Paul isn't alone though, because
Peter also wrote on this as

2401
02:19:30,160 --> 02:19:34,240
well.
So Peter and first Peter 3 says

2402
02:19:34,680 --> 02:19:37,520
likewise ye wives be in
subjection to your own

2403
02:19:37,520 --> 02:19:39,799
husband's, that if any obey not
the word.

2404
02:19:39,799 --> 02:19:43,600
They may without the word be won
by the conversation of their

2405
02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:46,480
wives first.
Peter 37 that says, likewise he

2406
02:19:46,480 --> 02:19:48,960
husbands dwell with them
according to knowledge, giving

2407
02:19:48,960 --> 02:19:52,320
honor unto the wife as unto the
weaker vessel, and as being

2408
02:19:52,320 --> 02:19:55,040
heirs together of the grace of
life, that your prayers be not

2409
02:19:55,040 --> 02:19:58,120
hindered.
So you know, Peter kind of said

2410
02:19:58,120 --> 02:20:01,440
that even if your husband's a
non member, you might actually

2411
02:20:01,680 --> 02:20:05,440
convert him by being, you know,
obedient and faithful instead of

2412
02:20:05,440 --> 02:20:07,800
being rebellious and fighting
him, you know?

2413
02:20:08,280 --> 02:20:13,000
And so you know that's something
that's all over the scriptures.

2414
02:20:13,640 --> 02:20:16,840
And you know, it's it's it's in
the temple ordinances.

2415
02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:19,120
It's something that Joseph Smith
taught.

2416
02:20:19,120 --> 02:20:22,440
You know, there's actually a
really great Joseph Smith quote

2417
02:20:22,760 --> 02:20:30,080
on this that he he made in 1838
and I'm just pulling this right

2418
02:20:30,080 --> 02:20:36,200
off the top of my head.
Joseph Smith, Wives, I'm just

2419
02:20:36,200 --> 02:20:40,920
pulling this up really quickly
to see if I can hear it is so.

2420
02:20:40,920 --> 02:20:44,280
This is in the Elders Journal,
volume one, number four, August

2421
02:20:44,280 --> 02:20:46,800
1838.
And so this is showing that

2422
02:20:46,800 --> 02:20:49,680
Joseph Smith was, you know,
taught this just as much as the

2423
02:20:49,680 --> 02:20:52,720
apostles of old did.
He says it's the duty of a

2424
02:20:52,720 --> 02:20:56,520
husband to love, cherish and
nourish his wife and to cleave

2425
02:20:56,520 --> 02:20:59,520
unto her and to none else.
He ought to honor her as

2426
02:20:59,520 --> 02:21:02,040
himself, and he ought to regard
her feelings with tenderness,

2427
02:21:02,040 --> 02:21:05,160
for she is as flesh and as bones
designed to be.

2428
02:21:05,160 --> 02:21:08,120
And help me undo him, both in
temporal and spiritual things,

2429
02:21:08,440 --> 02:21:11,720
one into whose bosom he can pour
all his complaints without

2430
02:21:11,720 --> 02:21:14,480
reserve, who is willing, being
designed to take part of his

2431
02:21:14,480 --> 02:21:17,320
burden, to soothe and encourage
his feelings by her gentle

2432
02:21:17,320 --> 02:21:19,120
voice.
It's the place of the man to

2433
02:21:19,120 --> 02:21:21,640
stand at the head of his family
and be Lord of his own house,

2434
02:21:21,840 --> 02:21:24,000
not to rule over his wife as a
tyrant.

2435
02:21:24,240 --> 02:21:25,920
Neither is 1 who's fearful or
jealous.

2436
02:21:25,920 --> 02:21:28,480
His wife will get it out of her
place and prevent him from

2437
02:21:28,480 --> 02:21:32,120
exercising his authority.
Is a duty to is his duty to be a

2438
02:21:32,120 --> 02:21:34,440
man of God.
For a man of God is a man of

2439
02:21:34,440 --> 02:21:37,080
wisdom, ready at all times to
obtain from the Scriptures the

2440
02:21:37,080 --> 02:21:40,840
revelations and from on high
such instructions as are

2441
02:21:40,840 --> 02:21:44,280
necessary for the edification
and salvation of his household.

2442
02:21:44,520 --> 02:21:46,760
And on the other hand is the
duty of the wife to be in

2443
02:21:46,760 --> 02:21:50,280
subjection to her husband at all
times, not as a servant, neither

2444
02:21:50,280 --> 02:21:54,160
as one that who fears A tyrant
or a master, but as one who in

2445
02:21:54,160 --> 02:21:56,840
meekness, in the love of God
regards the laws and

2446
02:21:56,840 --> 02:22:00,360
institutions of heaven, looks up
to her husband for instruction,

2447
02:22:00,360 --> 02:22:05,520
edification and comfort.
So you know that's something

2448
02:22:05,520 --> 02:22:08,720
that you know something that
Joseph Smith taught as well.

2449
02:22:09,120 --> 02:22:13,960
And so one thing that's puzzled
me and I've I, I, I've, you

2450
02:22:13,960 --> 02:22:17,480
know, I I kind of was wrecked
you know puzzled on this one for

2451
02:22:17,480 --> 02:22:21,600
a little bit is I occasionally
saw statements by about, and

2452
02:22:21,600 --> 02:22:25,080
this is from the sisters in
early Utah about the importance

2453
02:22:25,080 --> 02:22:28,600
of plural marriage because they
said plural marriage would

2454
02:22:28,600 --> 02:22:31,360
redeem women from the curse of
the fall.

2455
02:22:31,920 --> 02:22:35,760
And I'm like when I've read the
curse of the fall, it says, you

2456
02:22:35,760 --> 02:22:38,920
know, the desire shall be to
your thy husband and he shall

2457
02:22:38,920 --> 02:22:42,280
rule over you.
And I'm like, well, but even in

2458
02:22:42,280 --> 02:22:44,760
the celestial order of things,
you know, there's it's still the

2459
02:22:44,760 --> 02:22:47,200
patriarchal order.
So I was like how does plural

2460
02:22:47,200 --> 02:22:50,600
marriage redeem women from the
curse of the fall.

2461
02:22:51,160 --> 02:22:56,320
And I wasn't until I was reading
the early Brethren talk about it

2462
02:22:56,320 --> 02:23:00,240
that I actually, you know,
finally kind of understood it.

2463
02:23:00,240 --> 02:23:02,120
And so this is from George
Cucannan.

2464
02:23:02,520 --> 02:23:06,200
He said, I can bear testimony
for myself that I know this

2465
02:23:06,360 --> 02:23:09,320
celestial marriage is a
principle which, if practice and

2466
02:23:09,320 --> 02:23:12,240
purity and virtue as it should
be, will result in the

2467
02:23:12,240 --> 02:23:15,200
exaltation and benefit of the
human family, and that it will

2468
02:23:15,200 --> 02:23:17,960
exalt women until she is
redeemed from the effects of the

2469
02:23:17,960 --> 02:23:20,320
fall and from that curse
pronounced on her.

2470
02:23:20,320 --> 02:23:23,040
In the beginning, I believe the
correct practice of this

2471
02:23:23,040 --> 02:23:25,760
principle will redeem women from
the effects of that curse.

2472
02:23:25,960 --> 02:23:30,080
So it it sounds a bit harsh
saying he shall rule over thee.

2473
02:23:30,400 --> 02:23:33,400
I do think that there is a
nugget of truth in that.

2474
02:23:33,480 --> 02:23:37,320
In the priesthood, in celestial
marriage, It's not being ruled

2475
02:23:37,320 --> 02:23:41,560
over like in the world where you
know you have men who will abuse

2476
02:23:41,560 --> 02:23:44,320
women and mistreat them and
treat them terribly.

2477
02:23:44,720 --> 02:23:48,640
In the priesthood of God you
know you are, you know you.

2478
02:23:49,000 --> 02:23:52,600
You gain your dominion through
righteousness, through

2479
02:23:52,600 --> 02:23:56,160
long-suffering, and not by, you
know, through patience,

2480
02:23:56,160 --> 02:23:57,920
meekness.
You know everything that DNC

2481
02:23:58,080 --> 02:24:03,520
1121 lays out, and not by trying
to be a dictator and a tyrant.

2482
02:24:03,960 --> 02:24:07,920
And so, you know, I do think
that in a sense that it's also

2483
02:24:07,920 --> 02:24:10,960
redeeming them from that where
if you're in celestial marriage,

2484
02:24:10,960 --> 02:24:13,280
you know, you should have a
righteous husband who isn't

2485
02:24:13,280 --> 02:24:17,440
being a a domineering tyrant,
but it's just being a righteous

2486
02:24:17,440 --> 02:24:21,840
leader to his family.
And so there's this other.

2487
02:24:22,000 --> 02:24:24,480
I'm just going to end.
This is the last quote I have.

2488
02:24:24,840 --> 02:24:28,040
This is what Brigham Young said.
He said it may be all well

2489
02:24:28,040 --> 02:24:31,360
enough if a woman can attain
faith to throw off the curse,

2490
02:24:31,520 --> 02:24:34,120
but there's one thing she cannot
do away with, at least not so

2491
02:24:34,120 --> 02:24:36,880
far as I'm concerned as and he
shall rule over thee.

2492
02:24:37,120 --> 02:24:40,120
I can do that by causing my
women to do as I have a mind to,

2493
02:24:40,280 --> 02:24:42,680
and all this time they do not
know what is going on.

2494
02:24:42,800 --> 02:24:46,440
When I say rule, I do not mean
with an iron hand, but merely to

2495
02:24:46,440 --> 02:24:50,120
take the lead, to lead them in
the path I wish them to walk.

2496
02:24:50,320 --> 02:24:53,000
They may be determined not to
answer my will but they're doing

2497
02:24:53,000 --> 02:24:54,320
it all the time without knowing
it.

2498
02:24:54,760 --> 02:24:58,680
Highness, love and affection are
the best rod to use upon the

2499
02:24:58,680 --> 02:25:02,280
refractory.
So I I just think there's so

2500
02:25:02,280 --> 02:25:06,480
much beauty in the family order
that God has laid out and you

2501
02:25:06,480 --> 02:25:10,960
know, being a righteous example
and not and and I I hope we can

2502
02:25:10,960 --> 02:25:14,520
learn from you know what the
brethren laid out regarding

2503
02:25:14,520 --> 02:25:19,560
these principles so.
I I want to wrap up here it was

2504
02:25:19,560 --> 02:25:21,920
there anything else you wanted
to touch on before I kind of

2505
02:25:21,920 --> 02:25:23,800
wrap this up?
I got a few things I want to

2506
02:25:23,800 --> 02:25:27,040
spit out here.
Nope, that's good.

2507
02:25:27,080 --> 02:25:28,680
Sorry if I've been.
No, no.

2508
02:25:28,760 --> 02:25:30,640
You're you're you're you're
good.

2509
02:25:30,640 --> 02:25:33,480
You, you you put together an
excellent argument here.

2510
02:25:34,600 --> 02:25:39,120
First off, let's talk about
lived experiences within plural

2511
02:25:39,120 --> 02:25:40,360
marriage.
Right.

2512
02:25:40,800 --> 02:25:46,320
I'm a man who has two wives.
I promise you, if I mistreated

2513
02:25:46,320 --> 02:25:49,440
those women in any way, they're
strong enough, they would leave.

2514
02:25:50,160 --> 02:25:51,920
And good.
Good for them.

2515
02:25:52,400 --> 02:25:57,760
Right?
Next, I agree 100% with what

2516
02:25:57,760 --> 02:26:00,720
Brigham has said.
I'll just tell you how it runs

2517
02:26:00,720 --> 02:26:03,120
in my house.
I won't speak for anybody else,

2518
02:26:03,760 --> 02:26:07,120
but we strive for unity, the
three of us, me and my two

2519
02:26:07,120 --> 02:26:09,320
wives.
And I would be a foolish,

2520
02:26:09,320 --> 02:26:13,280
foolish man if I didn't counsel
with my wives because they are

2521
02:26:13,280 --> 02:26:17,480
some of the brightest, most
intuitive people I know, period.

2522
02:26:17,640 --> 02:26:20,560
Bar none.
And I'm blessed because of that.

2523
02:26:20,880 --> 02:26:24,600
So any dude who rules his family
with an iron fist that doesn't

2524
02:26:24,600 --> 02:26:27,320
deserve to have the wives he's
got, I'll just call it like I

2525
02:26:27,320 --> 02:26:30,280
see it.
You counsel with your wives, you

2526
02:26:30,280 --> 02:26:33,000
are going to be so much better
off as a family.

2527
02:26:33,680 --> 02:26:36,000
That's first.
That's the lived experience.

2528
02:26:37,360 --> 02:26:40,800
I want to talk about unintended
consequences for a minute.

2529
02:26:41,440 --> 02:26:45,840
As people, we get very myopic
when something is bugging us

2530
02:26:46,000 --> 02:26:47,880
right?
We only see what's right in

2531
02:26:47,880 --> 02:26:50,880
front of our face, and we want
to remove whatever that issue

2532
02:26:50,880 --> 02:26:53,480
is.
We don't care about the

2533
02:26:53,480 --> 02:26:56,560
downstream consequences.
We just want the thing that's

2534
02:26:56,560 --> 02:27:01,520
making us feel bad to be gone.
But that's not necessarily a

2535
02:27:01,520 --> 02:27:03,280
great way of looking at it,
right?

2536
02:27:05,480 --> 02:27:08,400
Because sometimes we have to ask
ourselves, what are the

2537
02:27:08,400 --> 02:27:11,840
consequences of just getting rid
of whatever it is that's making

2538
02:27:11,840 --> 02:27:15,520
us have doubts or making us feel
uncomfortable?

2539
02:27:16,160 --> 02:27:19,520
Let's talk about the UN, the
unintended consequences here.

2540
02:27:19,520 --> 02:27:21,600
And I'm not talking to the DOC
folks.

2541
02:27:21,880 --> 02:27:23,800
They know exactly what they're
doing.

2542
02:27:24,160 --> 02:27:26,720
They know 100% what they're
doing.

2543
02:27:27,000 --> 02:27:29,600
They want to remake the
restoration into something

2544
02:27:29,600 --> 02:27:32,760
closer to their heart's desire,
not God's.

2545
02:27:32,960 --> 02:27:35,920
And I will lay that on the table
every day of the week and twice

2546
02:27:35,920 --> 02:27:38,160
on Sunday.
That's what they're about.

2547
02:27:38,440 --> 02:27:43,080
I want to talk for just a second
about to to any Mormons out

2548
02:27:43,080 --> 02:27:46,480
there who are looking at this
and and thinking this might be a

2549
02:27:46,480 --> 02:27:50,160
good thing, going with the
doctrine of Christ group, the

2550
02:27:50,160 --> 02:27:52,280
unintended consequences are
this.

2551
02:27:52,760 --> 02:27:58,520
If 132 is fraudulent, as they
claim, then the unintended

2552
02:27:58,520 --> 02:28:01,040
consequence is this.
Yes, you get rid of polygamy,

2553
02:28:01,280 --> 02:28:02,640
but you know what else you get
rid of?

2554
02:28:03,160 --> 02:28:06,920
You get rid of ceilings, you get
rid of eternal families, you get

2555
02:28:06,920 --> 02:28:11,400
rid of anything that was
supernal within the restored

2556
02:28:11,400 --> 02:28:14,760
gospel period.
And this isn't a slam on

2557
02:28:14,760 --> 02:28:17,040
Protestantism.
What you get is you get

2558
02:28:17,040 --> 02:28:20,480
Protestantism with a new book.
That's what you got.

2559
02:28:21,240 --> 02:28:25,480
So if you're thinking about
going that direction, understand

2560
02:28:25,480 --> 02:28:29,960
there are consequences that come
with just kicking polygamy out

2561
02:28:29,960 --> 02:28:32,320
the door.
I understand it's hard.

2562
02:28:32,880 --> 02:28:37,760
I understand very, very well
that it's that it's hard, but

2563
02:28:37,760 --> 02:28:41,440
it's also rewarding.
As Mormons, we're not tasked

2564
02:28:41,520 --> 02:28:44,960
with just taking whatever feels
good, right?

2565
02:28:45,200 --> 02:28:47,480
This is the restoration of all
things.

2566
02:28:47,680 --> 02:28:50,600
And if it is the restoration of
all things, it becomes incumbent

2567
02:28:50,600 --> 02:28:55,440
upon us to wrestle with the
things that are uncomfortable.

2568
02:28:56,360 --> 02:29:01,320
What what the folks in the with
the DOC crowd do by just getting

2569
02:29:01,320 --> 02:29:05,080
rid of 132, remaking Joseph into
something that he wasn't

2570
02:29:05,440 --> 02:29:08,160
discrediting.
The good name of Brigham Young

2571
02:29:08,280 --> 02:29:11,520
and John Taylor and Wilfred
Woodruff is they ignore the

2572
02:29:11,520 --> 02:29:15,560
scriptural injunction that is
given by Paul where he says work

2573
02:29:15,560 --> 02:29:17,880
out your own salvation before
the Lord with fear and

2574
02:29:17,880 --> 02:29:19,360
trembling.
I get it.

2575
02:29:19,360 --> 02:29:22,240
It's hard stuff.
I've wrestled with these things.

2576
02:29:22,640 --> 02:29:26,640
But the truth is the truth and
it has no agenda and it doesn't

2577
02:29:26,640 --> 02:29:30,400
care and it cuts where it lies.
It simply exists because it is

2578
02:29:30,400 --> 02:29:33,880
truth.
So the likes of Justin Griffin,

2579
02:29:34,000 --> 02:29:38,520
Michelle Brady, Stone, any of
those lot, you don't want to

2580
02:29:38,520 --> 02:29:43,600
wrestle with it, that's fine.
But understand you cannot have

2581
02:29:43,600 --> 02:29:46,240
the Restoration without this.
I don't care what you say.

2582
02:29:46,520 --> 02:29:50,800
Because as soon as you and Hitch
from 1:32, when you and Hitch

2583
02:29:51,080 --> 02:29:55,560
from good solid history and
choose to believe a narrative

2584
02:29:55,800 --> 02:30:00,840
that quite frankly is a damned
lie, all you've done is you've

2585
02:30:00,840 --> 02:30:04,840
taken out anything that made the
restored gospel the restored

2586
02:30:04,840 --> 02:30:09,640
gospel and what you have left is
Protestantism with just one more

2587
02:30:09,640 --> 02:30:13,760
book.
Last thing I'm going to say, if

2588
02:30:13,760 --> 02:30:18,560
you're one of the faces in the
DOC movement, you should be flat

2589
02:30:18,560 --> 02:30:23,160
ass ashamed of yourself.
I mean, you can't the the

2590
02:30:23,160 --> 02:30:29,440
garbage I see dribble out is
beyond a simple mistake, beyond

2591
02:30:29,440 --> 02:30:34,720
a simple misreading of history.
You have to ignore key facts to

2592
02:30:34,720 --> 02:30:37,720
get to your position.
Now if you can lay your head

2593
02:30:37,720 --> 02:30:40,080
down at night and feel good
about that, I question your

2594
02:30:40,080 --> 02:30:44,440
conscience and I question your,
your, your honesty in in all

2595
02:30:44,440 --> 02:30:47,640
these things.
You are walking the same path as

2596
02:30:47,640 --> 02:30:51,040
Korahor or anybody else that led
the children of God astray,

2597
02:30:51,400 --> 02:30:53,000
Jacob.
Anything you want to add before

2598
02:30:53,000 --> 02:30:54,600
we wrap up?
Amen.

2599
02:30:54,600 --> 02:30:57,480
I would just like to say that,
you know, attacking polygamy is

2600
02:30:57,480 --> 02:31:01,800
about ultimately trying to tear
down the novel restoration that

2601
02:31:01,800 --> 02:31:06,560
Joseph Smith envisioned of, you
know, the exaltation of man.

2602
02:31:06,560 --> 02:31:12,080
The reality that we are not just
great creatures created by God,

2603
02:31:12,080 --> 02:31:14,520
but we are literally the
children of God.

2604
02:31:14,880 --> 02:31:18,520
And that beauty that we can
become like him through

2605
02:31:18,520 --> 02:31:22,040
obedience to the laws and the
ordinances of the gospel and and

2606
02:31:22,040 --> 02:31:25,600
following, you know, all of the
principles that are laid out in

2607
02:31:25,600 --> 02:31:28,040
the scriptures and laid out in
the revelations.

2608
02:31:29,600 --> 02:31:32,600
You know, it's it's attacking.
Plural marriage is about

2609
02:31:32,600 --> 02:31:35,320
ultimately attacking the temple
ordinances.

2610
02:31:35,560 --> 02:31:39,800
And the temple ordinances are a
vehicle that Joseph Smith

2611
02:31:39,800 --> 02:31:43,520
restored to bring us into our
exaltation.

2612
02:31:43,520 --> 02:31:45,680
They are important.
They are vital.

2613
02:31:45,680 --> 02:31:47,360
Joseph Smith considered it
vital.

2614
02:31:47,800 --> 02:31:51,160
And you know those who are
trying to tear down plural

2615
02:31:51,160 --> 02:31:54,960
marriage ultimately are trying
to tear down the temple doctrine

2616
02:31:54,960 --> 02:31:56,920
and the Nauvoo teachings of
Joseph Smith.

2617
02:31:57,160 --> 02:31:59,320
They may pick and choose pieces
they like.

2618
02:31:59,320 --> 02:32:02,880
They might still like a Heavenly
Mother, even though Brigham

2619
02:32:02,880 --> 02:32:05,880
Young is the one who and and the
wives of Joseph Smith who

2620
02:32:05,880 --> 02:32:08,920
followed Brigham Young are the
ones who gave you that doctrine

2621
02:32:08,920 --> 02:32:11,400
of a Heavenly Mother.
You might like being the spirit

2622
02:32:11,400 --> 02:32:14,560
children of God, even though
Brigham Young is the one who

2623
02:32:14,640 --> 02:32:17,720
revealed that teaching of Joseph
Smith to the Latter Day Saints.

2624
02:32:18,280 --> 02:32:22,440
You know, but the the reality is
is you know.

2625
02:32:22,440 --> 02:32:26,720
You can't just, you know, throw
out, you know, a piece of this

2626
02:32:26,720 --> 02:32:30,120
and keep the rest of it.
It will slowly throw the rest of

2627
02:32:30,120 --> 02:32:32,280
it out.
It's it's intended to lead you

2628
02:32:32,280 --> 02:32:35,680
on a path away from the
Restoration and the, I would say

2629
02:32:35,680 --> 02:32:39,520
the fullness of the Restoration
that Joseph Smith enacted in

2630
02:32:39,520 --> 02:32:41,880
Nauvoo.
And so, you know, that's that's

2631
02:32:41,880 --> 02:32:46,320
my big concern with it.
So it's because I'm so, it's

2632
02:32:46,320 --> 02:32:49,600
because I'm true to Joseph Smith
that I am passionate about this

2633
02:32:49,600 --> 02:32:50,920
topic.
I don't really.

2634
02:32:51,120 --> 02:32:54,000
You know, plural marriage isn't
really a topic that concerns me

2635
02:32:54,000 --> 02:32:55,280
personally.
I'm not living it.

2636
02:32:55,280 --> 02:32:57,120
I don't know if I'll ever be
called to live it.

2637
02:32:57,520 --> 02:33:00,000
I, I, I respect people who are
called to live it.

2638
02:33:00,000 --> 02:33:03,960
I do believe it is the higher
law according to what 132 says

2639
02:33:03,960 --> 02:33:06,920
and according to what the
prophets explained about it.

2640
02:33:08,040 --> 02:33:12,000
For me, my passion is I I I want
to be true to everything that

2641
02:33:12,000 --> 02:33:15,720
Joseph Smith restored.
And I I hope that all of us in

2642
02:33:15,720 --> 02:33:19,920
the Restoration have that same
kind of passion for loving

2643
02:33:19,920 --> 02:33:22,360
Joseph Smith and loving the
things that he taught.

2644
02:33:23,080 --> 02:33:26,560
Absolutely, dude.
As always when we talk, good

2645
02:33:26,560 --> 02:33:29,120
stuff, You do your homework,
you're well put together.

2646
02:33:29,440 --> 02:33:31,920
I appreciate it, man.
Well, thanks for having me on.

2647
02:33:31,920 --> 02:33:35,160
I really enjoyed preparing for
this 'cause you learn things as

2648
02:33:35,160 --> 02:33:37,840
you put stuff together, so.
Absolutely.

2649
02:33:38,200 --> 02:33:40,160
All right, man.
All right, everybody.

2650
02:33:40,160 --> 02:33:41,520
We'll see you next time.
Bye.

2651
02:34:12,520 --> 02:34:15,160
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.