Episode #121: The Life & Times Of John W. Taylor Part 5-Inquistion & The Emergence Of Mormon Fundamentalism W/Michael Ness

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So here we are at the conclusion
of the series on the Life and

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Times of John W Taylor.
As Michael Ness and I finish up

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our conversation, there's some
amazing historical information

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drop that should forever change
the conversation around how much

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Joseph F Smith either know,
knew, or didn't know about post

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manifesto plural marriage during
his administration.

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We then dive into the fallout
from John W Taylor's

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excommunication, Francis Lyman's
inquisition of those living and

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solemnizing plural marriages.
And along the way there's some

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pretty pointed questions that
have to be asked about Mormon

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hierarchy during this time.
We then wrap it all up by

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talking about what John W
Taylor's impact was not only on

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Mormon fundamentalist, but also
the LDS Church as well.

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That's next on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse.
To become and raise men and

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women of virtue and character is
a Herculean task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com.

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Go to the bottom of the page,
search out the blog post, and

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order your copy today.
I can bear personal testimony

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from personal experience that
this is an invaluable tool to

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help you raise men and women of
virtue and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Dude, Part 5, the last episode
the last.

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Installment I hope you're ready
for this roller coaster.

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We're in the home stretch.
Dude, you look, I've had to deal

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with this for a little while
now, so I'm going to do this to

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everyone else out there.
You're going to want to listen

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to this really closely because
there's some stuff here that's

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going to kind of blow your mind
a little bit as we wrap this up.

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So this, this ought to be good
stuff.

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So Michael, as we as we ended
last episode, we kind of ended

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with with those resignation
letters that that were really

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prepared for for Taylor and and
Matthias Cowley.

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And it was done in in, in my
opinion, in a really dirty way,

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'cause it was like, look, this
is just in case things get bad,

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right?
This is like break in case of

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fire and just like six months
later, they're like, oh, the

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fire's here, Sorry you guys got
to go.

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But don't worry, we'll bring you
right back in and that's kind of

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where we left off at there with
that.

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Yeah, they held on to those
resignation letters for six

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months.
They were prepared in October of

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nineteen O 5 and they were
released in April conference

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nineteen O 6, which we're going
to get to in a minute.

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So we know they're already
there.

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It's it's been left up to Reed
Smooth's discretion whether to

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use them or not.
But we also went over how Reed

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Smooth started to get telegrams
and letters from Joseph F Smith

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through George Reynolds or
George F Gibbs, who were

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Secretaries to the First
Presidency, saying the Lord will

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bless you if you don't sacrifice
these brethren.

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Right.
Anyway, we're going to, we're

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going to get into that in just a
second, real quick.

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I wanted to go over 3 characters
names real quick that will

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appear just for a refresher, so
you understand.

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So we understand what their
positions were in the church.

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There was Joseph W Summer Hayes
who was a general board member

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of the YMMA and he took his
fifth wife as a post manifesto

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wife and he was a traveling
companion of Joseph F Smith.

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During this time period and
during the last episode we

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covered how Joseph Summer Hayes
travelled with Joseph F Smith

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and Matthias F Cowley and I
think John W Taylor up to

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Canada.
That when they went down to the

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Bighorn Basin in Wyoming where
Matthias Cowley performed a

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plural ceiling for the state
President Byron Sessions.

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And then they went down to
Mexico traveling together and

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Joseph F Smith gave Summer Hayes
a charge to perform a plural

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marriage for a Bishop Sears.
Another character that will

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appear a lot in the next in this
episode and has been around and

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the others is Joseph M Tanner
who was the general

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Superintendent of church schools
and he took his first plural

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life post manifesto.
No I don't think it was his

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first plural life but he took
his first post manifesto plural

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life in 19 O1.
And Henry S Tanner see if Joseph

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M Tanner and Henry S Tanner they
are probably related.

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I don't know that for a fact.
They don't seem to be super near

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relations.
I just want to lay that out so

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that they're not confused.
So Joseph M Tanner is a general

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Superintendent of church
schools.

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His I believe, I believe his
sister married or Nathan Clark's

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sister.
He married Nathan Clark's

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sister.
So that's important I believe

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later or during this time
period.

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And Henry S Tanner was a local
70s president.

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He was a judge and he takes his
second and third wife in 19 O1.

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He was.
He was.

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I found out today the former
mission president of California

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before Joseph E Robinson, who
we've discussed at length, was

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the mission president of
California who he was, he was

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setting up Roger Clawson, right.
Remember that with the hotel

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rooms, with his post.
Second Manifesto wife Henry S

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Tanner also served another
mission for the church after he

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was released as mission
president in the northern, in

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the Northern States Mission.
And he had two wives sealed to

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him by Matthias Cowley up to
this point.

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Nice.
OK, so that's what I wanted to

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cover there.
Now moving back into the

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narrative, right.
So into the new year 19 O 6 the

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bad news Apostle Mariner W
Merrill dies on February 6th 19

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O 6 Some information on on
Mariner Merrill to have the last

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word on him because he'll no
longer really appear in this

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narrative.
I discovered the reason I think

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I believe why he was so adamant
about his position on

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maintaining celestial plural
marriage despite the manifestos.

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He he was born in Canada, a non
member.

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He joined the church in 1853 of
when he when missionaries came

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and taught him and then he moved
to Utah.

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He became a Bishop up by Cache
Valley and then he became the

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temple president of the Logan
Temple before he was ordained a

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member of the Quorum of the
12th.

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But the reason he joined the
church was because when he was a

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young boy, he had a vision where
he saw himself and other members

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of his family living plural
marriage.

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And as a boy, young boy or a,
you know, teenager maybe, maybe

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younger than that, but you know,
And so he went and asked his

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mom, you know, mother, why don't
we live polygamy like the

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patriarchs in the Bible?
And she didn't have an answer

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for him.
And he just kind of kept it

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under his hat.
What I read earlier about that

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is he was told not to reveal
more about what he knew about

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that from what he was shown in
his vision.

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But he he asked, he asked that
question to his mom, Why don't

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we live plural marriage like
they do in the Bible?

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And so he knew that he knew by a
revelation from God that that

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principle was holy.
And so when he was taught by the

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elders as a young man, he joined
the church because he found

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these people that were living
this way that he, that God had

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showed him as a young man or
young boy.

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And so he was all for it, you
know.

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Then just he knew that was where
he needed to be and he moved to

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Utah.
So I can see with that

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development in his youth why he
would be a die hard for the

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principal.
Oh, yeah, because that's, you

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know, that's that's a direct
revelation.

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And that's one of those things
that that was a recognizable

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trait, right.
And we could see why.

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You know, if the Lord, if the
Lord was quote after him, so to

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speak, that would be a dead
giveaway.

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There weren't too many other
Christian Sikhs of the time, you

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know, promulgating plural
marriage by any stretch.

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The other thing that I wonder
about is his mom must have

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thought, what are you talking
about, son?

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I mean, this is Victorian
America, right?

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So, So when you're when you're
you know 12 or 13 year old runs

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up and like why aren't we doing
this multiple wives thing that

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that must have like freaked her
out a little bit I would

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imagine.
I I wish I would have done the

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family history on this, but he I
am descended through like a

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brother or a cousin of his.
OK.

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And so that that is like I'm not
church royalty, but that's like

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the closest I am to to church
you know leadership in in my own

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family is through brother Meryl.
In any case, that's fun.

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And so it makes sense why he
would be one of those to write

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in his journal after the first
Manifesto.

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I do not believe the manifesto
to be a revelation from God,

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because he had it on authority
from God himself that that was

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the principle to live.
Yeah, And as we covered earlier,

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he he was the first apostle to
perform a plural marriage in

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Utah, after the First Manifesto
as well.

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Nice.
Nice.

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Well, you could see why it would
be near and dear to his heart,

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right.
And in some ways watching this

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come to pass, you know, the
manifesto and stuff it it.

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That must have been hugely
disconcerting for him, right?

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Because oh sure, this yeah, he
he that was the entry point.

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He he refused to play ball with
any of the politics afterwards

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either, like when people are
being called into the stand and

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when you asked what the scope of
it was and they were kind of

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being very political and even
lying, he's like, no, absolutely

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not.
I'm not going to be involved

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with that.
Yeah.

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Wow.
Wow.

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Yeah.
No, I get it.

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Doesn't make me feel so alone.
That's how I ended up joining.

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Fundamentalism was at first so.
Anyways, I just like to shout

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out and thank you to to Brother
Merrill for all of his diligent

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hard work up to that point.
Moving on, we get into the the

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Judson Tolman marriages, so we
know now that Matthias Cowley

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and John W Taylor have signed
the resignation letters.

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But on February 14th, 8 days
after Brother Merrill dies,

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state patriarch of Davis Steak
Judson A Tolman, who is age 79

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at this point, marries his fifth
wife in Bountiful, Davis County,

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Utah, at the residents of
another state patriarch named

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Samuel Bryson by ward of Bishop
of West Bountiful Ward.

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Dan Muir.
Super Interesting Muir.

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Dan Muir.
Muir.

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Muir.
Oh, OK Dan Muir has a brother

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named Leo J Muir, who many years
later, when ruling Allred, was

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getting involved with the
fundamentalists and was pursuing

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a testimony of the principal and
struggling with that and trying

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to get his wife to come along.
You know, and I don't know if

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you know this, but ruling Allred
separated from his first wife

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because she would not follow him
down that road in any case.

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She reported him to their state
president in California, who was

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Leo J Muir, who was, you know,
the brother to this guy that

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that married Judson told him to
his fifth wife and brother.

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Leo Muir pretty much gave it,
you know, pretty scathing, you

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know, instructions and even
publicly it was like we are not

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entering into plural marriage
anymore and all of this.

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And he told Rulon Allred that
you're going to be

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excommunicated if you follow
this route and all of that and

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basically entirely discouraged
him.

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And then Rulon Allred again.
This is according to Rulon

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Allred's You know, you can find
this in treasures of knowledge

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and telling the story, he then
tells President Muir.

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I have a testimony of this and
God revealed it to me, and it's

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at that point that Leo J Muir
says, God bless you, Brother

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00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:47,400
Allred, I hope that he'll
protect you.

225
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,160
Holy cow.
Yeah, I mean just the, I mean

226
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,960
the the, the, the kind of going
from 1 extreme to another on

227
00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,080
this where you got to keep the
public face, right?

228
00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,040
So you got to like, really give
it to him.

229
00:14:02,680 --> 00:14:05,440
And then you almost have
whiplash when they turn around.

230
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,480
Be like, OK, you're willing to
to go through the fire for this.

231
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,440
God bless you and off you.
Yeah.

232
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,560
So it's like it it it's like the
test you know and the AUB does

233
00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:18,120
this with converts is they'll
give you the cold shoulder when

234
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,160
you when you express any
interest and they want you to

235
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:23,920
knock down their door over and
over and over again before they

236
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,080
you know pretty much allow you
to have any progress

237
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,200
investigating.
You know it's it's kind of a

238
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,520
that that test thing.
You know the CU, are you truly

239
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,320
committed?
And obviously brother Leo, Jamie

240
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,840
were had knowledge of what was
going on at least in his

241
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,960
brother's life previous decades
earlier, which we're covering

242
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:42,520
now.
Right.

243
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:47,280
And so when he saw that ruling,
Alwyn had a testimony, You know,

244
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,560
the facade dropped.
Right.

245
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:52,680
OK, so that's a fun little
little story.

246
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,680
You know, and and this is
something that I've seen that's

247
00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,400
kind of overarching through
this, this time period in

248
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:07,200
history, but I still think it's
the test today, right?

249
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,880
Where if you're coming out of
the church, you are very much

250
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,800
like Adam and Eve, right?
You have essentially been given

251
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:20,280
2 commandments that can't be
obeyed simultaneously, right?

252
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:26,600
One is, you know, follow the
prophet at all costs, and then

253
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:32,240
the other is, you know, to live
this principle or get OK with

254
00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,680
this principle, which requires
you to to be like, OK, so which

255
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,480
one is it?
It's very much the same kind of

256
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,240
test that Adam and Eve faced in
the garden.

257
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,520
I think so as well.
So back to Brother Tolman about

258
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,960
four years after all this, he,
you know, because he gets

259
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:55,240
exposed and he's eventually
excommunicated when he's being

260
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,920
interviewed by the 12.
They ask him, did any member of

261
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,400
the 12 or First Presidency give
you authority to do this thing,

262
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,080
meaning the marriages that he's
going to be involved with.

263
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,320
And he said no, Sir.
Now that's fascinating to me

264
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,360
because I we're going to go over
the the evidence.

265
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,280
I think that points to the fact
that Matthias Cowley and John W

266
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,760
Taylor set him apart to do that
because they were not.

267
00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,680
He's not lying by saying no Sir,
because they were not members of

268
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,000
the form of the 12 right at this
point.

269
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,000
Right.
So they ask him.

270
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,480
Go go.
Go ahead, finish your thought.

271
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,640
I was.
Just gonna reiterate.

272
00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:36,360
Who?
Who was?

273
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:38,840
Who was?
Was Joseph Smith still profit at

274
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,080
this time?
Yep.

275
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,760
Absolutely.
A part of it could be, you know,

276
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,480
and and this is, this is
something else to keep in mind

277
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,040
as well here, right, is that
this is a time period within the

278
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:52,840
church.
Now I think we've entered that

279
00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,200
point to where the house is
divided against itself.

280
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:00,920
Yeah, it is.
And.

281
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,040
So it very much is.
In in some ways, I wonder if by

282
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,880
him answering that he's trying
to protect the president of the

283
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,280
church, he's trying to protect
members of the 12, right.

284
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,920
I mean this well, there's where
it's really cloak and dagger at

285
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,200
this point.
I think even within it is in

286
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,720
within the church.
There's there's circumstantial

287
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,520
evidence that he was protecting
John W Taylor and and and Joseph

288
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,560
F Smith and especially Joseph F
Smith and because there's

289
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:32,960
circumstantial evidence that
Joseph F Smith was involved and

290
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,720
protected other men that he
helped that Tolman officiated

291
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,240
for.
And we're going to cover that.

292
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,000
But yeah, he him answering no
Sir to that question is, you

293
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,040
know, pretty interesting because
we know that Judson Tolman was

294
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:51,000
five years previous to this at
the meetings that John W Taylor

295
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:55,680
was having, which were David
West Jeff's called patriarchal

296
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,720
meetings and Judson Tolman told
him in 19 O1 told David West

297
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,000
Jeff's you will enter into the
principle of plural marriage,

298
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,880
you know, prophesying,
prophesying to him.

299
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:06,480
Right.
So we have that connection.

300
00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,480
You know, John W Taylor had a
home in that stake.

301
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,520
Judson Tolman was going to those
meetings.

302
00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:20,240
He's now performing these plural
marriages in that stake where

303
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,280
John John W Taylor has a house
and was living for years.

304
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:31,840
Anyway, we'll come back to that.
February 21st. 19 O 6 is when

305
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:37,160
Joseph W Summer Hayes goes down
to Mexico to marry to basically

306
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,920
fulfill the Commission that he
got from Joseph F Smith to marry

307
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,600
a second wife to William G
Sears.

308
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,120
According to D Michael Quinn,
President Joseph F Smith was

309
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:51,760
pretty upset that Summer Hayes
delayed the ceremony from the

310
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,080
time that they took the trip
together till this point that he

311
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:57,000
actually officiated.
The reason that Summer Hayes

312
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,680
delayed was because she had not
yet received her endowments.

313
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,440
And I guess under the
circumstances, Joseph F Smith's

314
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,880
opinion would be that it was
more expedient to get married

315
00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,120
than to make sure that that it
was done in in the order that

316
00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:15,520
it's normally ideal and.
That that brings up a question I

317
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,080
I want to ask you.
Sure.

318
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,360
Throughout history, and I'm not
talking just this time period,

319
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:24,760
but maybe even going back to to
Joseph Smith's time period.

320
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,520
What was it always customary
that a woman takes out her

321
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,680
endowments first before she gets
gets sealed?

322
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,400
Or was there some flexibility
there in that?

323
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,040
I mean, Joseph Joseph Smith
definitely was having those

324
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,440
marriages done for himself
before they were administering

325
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,640
endowments, OK, To everyone.
You know, there was the holy

326
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,680
order and there was people who
and like the apostles and those

327
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,080
in the inner circle, them and
their wives started to get their

328
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,800
endowments like the last year of
Joseph's life.

329
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:57,600
But we know he was teaching
polygamy the last three years.

330
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,840
Right.
You know, And so, yeah, there

331
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,360
was that was happening before.
And even on the plains,

332
00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:06,520
westward, and on the way to
winter quarters and to Utah,

333
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:11,760
plural marriages were being
solemnized to people who had not

334
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,560
received their endowments yet.
OK, all right.

335
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,320
I just find that awesome because
I think a lot of us are raised

336
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:25,320
with the LDS customs, right?
And and I've seen it within

337
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,440
fundamentalism and it made me go
back and look and I couldn't

338
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,720
find it anywhere either, where
where it was ever said it has to

339
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,280
be in this order, it doesn't
seem.

340
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,160
I think it's.
I personally think it's more

341
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,840
ideal to have your endowment
first.

342
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,800
But I know a fundamental I know,
I know a fundamentalist leader

343
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:47,520
who told me specifically his
thoughts were that you should

344
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,040
not have your endowment until
you enter into the principle

345
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,880
interesting.
That's then that's those that

346
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,640
was, that was his take on it.
Interesting.

347
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,600
OK, interesting.
I tend to be somewhat

348
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,080
libertarian so to speak on this
where I'm like, look, this is

349
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,200
probably not A1 size fits all
answer as far as the order of

350
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,000
things right and circumstances
have to play a part in that.

351
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:17,000
I agree.
I completely agree.

352
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,680
So yeah, so Joseph W Summer
Hayes performs at Ceiling Down

353
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,880
in Mexico.
This was brought up to the

354
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,360
Formula 12 when they started
investigating new plural

355
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:34,680
marriages a few years later.
And basically Joseph F Smith

356
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:39,560
went to Bath for Joseph W Summer
Hayes and Bishop Sears and they

357
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,280
were exonerated.
They were never excommunicated.

358
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,360
Neither of them were ever
excommunicated.

359
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:50,360
That was in 1910, and on the
heels of that, around 1912

360
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,360
President Smith.
This is according to D Michael

361
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:57,600
Quinn, President Smith told
Joseph E Robinson, whom he had

362
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:00,280
allowed to begin a polygamous
courtship in September of

363
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,760
nineteen O 7 quote.
It is hard to make some people

364
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,160
see the difference between cases
that you will permit this one

365
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,480
but won't or can't.
That or yeah, but that one,

366
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,400
Yeah, so.
It's.

367
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,360
Interesting.
So yeah, Joseph F Smith went to

368
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:18,480
bat for them and got them off
the hook.

369
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,960
He was not able to do that in
every case.

370
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:23,920
What?
What?

371
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,040
Let me ask you this, who are the
ones that are really pushing for

372
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,240
the excommunications?
Well, that's where it gets.

373
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,440
Tricky, because in 19 O 9 on you
know, which is what would have

374
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,960
brought up these these things,
Joseph F Smith authorized

375
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,840
Francis M Lyman and another
apostle or two, I think James E

376
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,280
Town, which was one of them to
start investigating new plural

377
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,080
marriages and to start
excommunicating members of the

378
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,000
church.
Who?

379
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,800
Were doing that.
And and this is happening at the

380
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,160
same time period where where
Joseph F Smith is, is okaying

381
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,280
some of these.
Right.

382
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,800
And so President Smith tells
Robinson, it's hard to make some

383
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,280
people see the difference
between this case or that case,

384
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,880
how it can be allowed this case
or can't be allowed or won't be

385
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,560
allowed or encouraged in this
case.

386
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:14,120
In another case, we're going to
get down later down the road.

387
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,280
There's a journal entry from
Joseph Robinson as well where he

388
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,720
says that President Joseph F
Smith and Anthony H Lund and I

389
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:26,360
understand each other.
OK you know so it can't it's

390
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,760
it's like Joseph Smith was
telling some people one thing

391
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,400
like these guys.
Summer Hayes, Robinson, the

392
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,480
Tanners, Joseph Musser, they're
getting encouraged.

393
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,560
But when the threat to the
public face of the church is is

394
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,960
is there, he tells the official
arm of the church being led by

395
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,120
the the quorums of the church
And their presidents like

396
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,080
Francis M Laimaniecco take care
of this.

397
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:54,800
They're breaking the rules of
the church.

398
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,920
And I I can see why because he'd
kind of have to be forced to

399
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,520
acknowledge it, you know,
otherwise it would look

400
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:08,200
suspicious, you know.
And SO11 historian noted that

401
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:14,160
Joseph F Smith divided was
actually responsible for

402
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,720
dividing the church against
itself because he had two

403
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,240
distinctly opposite motives.
One was to preserve the legal

404
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,960
identity and the physical state
of the church, and the other

405
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,320
goal was to perpetuate plural
marriage no matter what.

406
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,720
And at this point in time, those
those two things could not be

407
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,760
reconciled.
But he even basically those who

408
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,360
wanted to fall into the camp of
preserving the church no matter

409
00:24:39,360 --> 00:24:42,360
what he's told them, do whatever
you need to do to preserve the

410
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:44,320
church, no matter what.
And to those preserving plural

411
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,120
marriage, he said preserve
plural marriage no matter what.

412
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,440
That's what it looks like.
Wow.

413
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,520
Now let let me ask you this
question.

414
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,760
During this time period, is
Joseph F Smith signing off on

415
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,640
every one of these plural
marriages?

416
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:04,080
Because we know for our last one
of our last conversations, we

417
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,400
know that he compartmentalizes
this right?

418
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,680
He makes sure it looks like he
makes sure that that that in

419
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,320
this case, you know, the left
hand doesn't know what the right

420
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,680
hand is doing, so to speak, for
plausible deniability.

421
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:21,800
So is he, is he Privy to every
one of the marriages that John W

422
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,920
Taylor is performing, that
Matthias Callaway is performing?

423
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,360
Is does he look at them and say,
OK, they're more mature within

424
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,160
the quorum and they can they can
they have discernment good

425
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,840
enough to tell if this is going
to be good or bad or whatever?

426
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,800
So I will comment on that by
remarking, Do you remember John

427
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:47,240
Taylor's stance in the 1880s
when he was subpoenaed into

428
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,640
court to testify And he
basically says, I have

429
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:57,640
studiously avoided knowing these
things and I don't know if that

430
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,560
was exactly Joseph SF Smith's
stance.

431
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,160
It would definitely not be
accurate to say that he knew of

432
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,960
all of these indications,
especially because you have

433
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,000
people entering into solemn
covenants without another

434
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,720
officiator going on like Don
Maro and I, Lebaron and and

435
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,240
others who were doing it that
way.

436
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,520
And maybe he knew about those,
maybe he didn't, maybe he

437
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:26,600
encouraged that Joe John W
Taylor later and we're getting

438
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:27,600
ahead of ourselves.
But.

439
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,160
He said to the.
Formula 12 when he was on trial

440
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,800
that he had never married anyone
without the permission of

441
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,240
President Smith.
OK.

442
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,960
Now, D Michael Quinn, if I
recall, and his work on this

443
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,840
says that that might not have
been entirely accurate, but I

444
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:46,600
would say it's at least mostly
accurate.

445
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,160
In most cases.
John W Taylor was making sure he

446
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,680
was working with.
Full.

447
00:26:55,040 --> 00:27:01,320
You know in full report with
with Joseph F In any case, we

448
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,920
know that Joseph E Robinson and
Joseph Summer Hayes were

449
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,480
involved with Joseph F Smith
apart from, but also kind of

450
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,360
intertwined with with Matthias
Cowley and John W Taylor.

451
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,400
Following these events, April
6th, 19 O 6, Matthias Cowley and

452
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,080
John W Taylor's resignation
letters were read at general

453
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,040
conference.
John W Taylor tells one of his

454
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,480
wives, quote I was sacrificed
for Reed Smoot's personal

455
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:33,200
ambition.
Only to have that guy later

456
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,120
thrust the United States and do.
The Depression?

457
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,160
Yeah.
Now I would like to read some

458
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,080
journal entries from some
prominent people in the church

459
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,880
to know how they felt about
this.

460
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,200
Presentation Do we when when
they resigned from the church,

461
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,440
do we have those letters?
Yes, I believe.

462
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,240
I believe they are in the copies
that I know of I think are

463
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,960
published in Drew Drew Briany's
book Apostles on Trial, I

464
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,520
believe.
And and what was the tone of

465
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,520
those letters?
I mean, was it like we screwed

466
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,280
up, we're out?
Or is it like we are resigning

467
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,960
for reasons unknown or I don't?
Recall Matthias Cowley's per SE.

468
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,560
But John, there was some element
in John W Taylor's resignation

469
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:23,520
letter that said we have been
found out of harmony for our

470
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:27,240
understandings of the
application of the manifesto,

471
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,640
not applying to countries
outside the United States and

472
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,600
basically apologizing for
putting the church in that

473
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,960
position.
You know, it wasn't fully

474
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,920
apologizing, but basically it
was political.

475
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:46,080
It was a little political
maneuvering.

476
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,800
Yeah.
But yeah, basically I'm saying,

477
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,360
you know, we were involved in
this and it was because we

478
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:56,400
didn't understand the intention
of the leaders in the church and

479
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,040
the scope of the manifesto.
Gotcha.

480
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:04,000
OK.
In any case, J Golden Kimball

481
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:09,360
writes on April 8th, 19 O 6
apostles John W Taylor and

482
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,760
Matthias F Cowley resigned from
the apostleship.

483
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,840
It is a political move to
protect the Church of Latter Day

484
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,880
Saints as the Church is on trial
before Congress.

485
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,720
Brother Taylor and Cowley are
Rams caught in the thicket and

486
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:29,200
are offered as a sacrifice so he
knows he knows what's up, Orson

487
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:36,360
F Whitney writes on April 9th,
19 O 6, Brother George F

488
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,520
Richards succeeds.
The late apostle mariner Would

489
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,320
Merrill.
I am put in the place of John W

490
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,760
Taylor resigned and Brother
David O McKay in place of

491
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,240
Matthias F Cowley resigned 19
years ago this coming summer,

492
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,920
Apostle John W Taylor predicted,
predicted to me that I would be

493
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,440
an apostle.
We were travelling together

494
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,080
South and we're on a train
opposite of Murray.

495
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,960
I little dreamed, nor did he,
that I would succeed him in the

496
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,400
Quorum.
He was always very good to me.

497
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,720
You know, it's one thing to see
a prophecy come to fulfillment

498
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,680
that always brings joy.
But this one, you you get the

499
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,840
feeling that there's a somber
tone to it, right?

500
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,000
That I didn't think it would go
this way.

501
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,480
Oh no, no, yeah, absolutely not.
And we know that Orson F Whitney

502
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:30,560
had had taken at least one Post
manifesto wife during this time

503
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,440
period and and he was always
sympathetic to the people who

504
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,960
were getting caught on the
carpet.

505
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,280
You know, that I know of, you
know, like Joseph Muster for

506
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,560
example.
When that happens, coming up

507
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,160
remembering, you know, what we
discussed with Joseph Muster is

508
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,440
he said that David O McKay and
Orson F Whitney and Roger

509
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,320
Clausson were very good to me.
Right.

510
00:30:52,320 --> 00:31:02,880
You know, on April 10th in 19 O
6, Joseph E Robinson told in a

511
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,640
meeting with eight of the
apostles and several mission

512
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,760
presidents, he told them, quote,
President Taylor died in exile

513
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,600
for this principle and he gave
men authority to perform the

514
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,800
ceremony of marriage, which
authority I have been told was

515
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,680
never revoked it.
It really does what does.

516
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,840
That sound like.
What's that?

517
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,200
Well, what does that sound like?
Sounds like a guy who's fully

518
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,560
committed to the principle.
And he and he's relating

519
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,360
something that sounds very
similar to the 1886 story, yeah.

520
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,840
Absolutely, absolutely.
I I kind of took that for

521
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,640
granted.
But absolutely.

522
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,760
Just the amount of division now
that we're starting to see

523
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,640
within the church is, is
fascinating and and I think it's

524
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,000
playing out again to be honest
with you, right.

525
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,880
I think there's still some, you
know, different issue, but I

526
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,840
think we can look at certain
members of the First Presidency,

527
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,400
certain members of the 12,
although they're getting few in

528
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,040
number now who who really have
issue with, you know, the trans

529
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,920
movement, the LGBTQ movement and
you get the feeling that much.

530
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:21,040
I just find the the parallels
from then to today, even though

531
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,360
it's different issues striking
very.

532
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,640
It is, yeah.
If, for example, you know, I

533
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,840
believe Holland is pretty strong
on the traditional stance.

534
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,760
If he never, if he dies before
he becomes president of the

535
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,960
church, I think it's game over.
You're more hopeful.

536
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,600
Than him.
If he becomes president of the

537
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:45,720
church, we may see some
conservative reforms, very much

538
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,400
like when President Nelson took
over.

539
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,720
We've seen liberal reforms since
Monson, right?

540
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,520
That would be my prediction in
any case.

541
00:32:56,920 --> 00:33:00,360
The 8 apostles who were in that
meeting that Joseph E Robinson

542
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,040
said and disclosed that John
Taylor had said apartment to

543
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,320
perpetuate plural marriage which
was never revoked.

544
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:11,200
He that they were Francis and
Lyman, John Henry Smith, Rodger

545
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:16,320
Clawson, Hiram Max Smith, George
Albert Smith, Charles W Penrose,

546
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,880
and George F George F Richards
and Orson F Whitney.

547
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:26,160
And so you have a pretty evenly
mixed throw and against mixed,

548
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,800
you know, it's a mixed audience
for that kind of information for

549
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,520
sure, yeah.
I can't.

550
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,080
I can't imagine what those
meetings must have looked like,

551
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,000
right?
I How wow.

552
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,880
I mean, if they're that evenly
divided.

553
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,360
Well, on on the heels of that,
just a few days later, actually

554
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,000
2 weeks later, two weeks after
Joseph E Robinson tells those

555
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,440
guys that authority has been
perpetuated.

556
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,960
And knowing that John Taylor,
John W Taylor, Matthias Cowley

557
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,440
have just resigned, Orson F
Whitney records in his diary

558
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,000
that he and Roger Clausen, at
his suggestion, were up in the

559
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,440
historian's office.
And we sat for half an hour or

560
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,800
more talking of brother John W
Taylor and Matthias F Cowley, et

561
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,320
cetera.
So they're talking about what's

562
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,159
going on, and we know that both
Roger Clausen and Orson F

563
00:34:21,159 --> 00:34:23,280
Whitney are sympathetic.
Or.

564
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,840
Completely cooperative with new
polygamy.

565
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,960
Gosh, I would love to get inside
the mind of of a couple of those

566
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,320
guys, right, 'cause the the old
crap meter must be going off

567
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,320
pretty heavily, right?
You just saw two of the

568
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,320
stalwarts being asked to resign,
right?

569
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,679
And it's probably becoming clear
now that that thing that was

570
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:50,960
told to them that, hey, we're
going to bring you right back in

571
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:56,520
isn't happening.
And so now now you're you're

572
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,640
you're watching this go down and
all of a sudden the quorum is

573
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,440
evenly split.
Joseph F Smith is being

574
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,760
duplicitous.
And I get that right.

575
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:08,560
I get what he's trying to do
there.

576
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,680
At the same time, the writing's
on the wall at this point,

577
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,640
right?
Anybody can see it now?

578
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,200
And we can read into.
This conversation like what else

579
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,400
are they talking about besides
their own polygamy and the topic

580
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,880
of polygamy?
Because both of them are

581
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,560
violators of the law and they've
entered into and of the rule of

582
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,960
the church, which was that no
plural marriages were going on

583
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,520
in in the church.
Jeez.

584
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:38,280
And yeah, I mean they, they got
to be worried about them, their

585
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,440
families, I mean.
Yep.

586
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,520
John, John and Matthias just got
cut off.

587
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,480
Maybe we're next, You know,
Maybe that's what they're

588
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,120
talking about.
I would imagine, right.

589
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,920
It has to.
It has to be on their mind.

590
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,360
I mean, it would have been
different had.

591
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,120
And and this is where I leaned
towards, there was a takeover at

592
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:03,200
some point in the church, right?
Hardcore takeover A couple

593
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,280
things that we talked about the
last episode in the last episode

594
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,800
that got me was the Quorum of
the 12 has a meeting without the

595
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,080
First Presidency where where
this has come to pass.

596
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:23,080
It just smacks of of a couple of
apostles who I think hatched a

597
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:30,560
plan, knew what they had to do,
and then just got it done right.

598
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,640
And the writing's on the wall
now.

599
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,200
It's not like they replaced John
W Taylor and Matthias Cowley

600
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,000
with other strong supporters of
new polygamy.

601
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,840
They made sure they went the
other direction.

602
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,520
Orson F Whitney being the
exception maybe, but not likely

603
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,800
that they knew that.
But fundamentalist tradition

604
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,160
states that Francis M Lyman and
other leaders of the Church were

605
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,880
at one point trying to basically
find out whether or not Joseph F

606
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,480
Smith was encouraging these new
this new polygamy.

607
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,480
And if they found the evidence
for it, they were going to

608
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,240
impeach him as president of the
church according to section One

609
00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:07,920
O 7, What you Can Do.
And then they were going to have

610
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:15,720
him locked up in jail.
Holy crap, that is a bold move.

611
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,600
And again, I call it a takeover
because it's going in the exact

612
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,160
opposite direction that had been
established since the first

613
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:30,240
manifesto, right?
So now all of a sudden, and I'll

614
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:32,960
just call it like I see it,
couple guys made a deal with the

615
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,280
devil, so to speak and they
found themselves in positions of

616
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:44,680
power and I'm sorry, but the set
of cojones on that, they'll let

617
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:50,480
that guy to be like, OK, next in
our site is Joseph F Smith.

618
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,160
If we can come up with the with
the ammo, I mean, I'd take some

619
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,160
serious intestinal fortitude to
go that way.

620
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,560
Can you imagine the crisis that
would have happened had they got

621
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,360
that done?
Oh dude.

622
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,400
Oh man.
I mean here, here's the thing,

623
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,160
right?
And and I'm I'm glad that they

624
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:16,880
didn't get that done because
dude that had that had the that

625
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,880
had the the ability to entirely
wreck Mormonism.

626
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,880
It may happen.
On the other hand, we wouldn't

627
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,680
have the dogma of prophetic
infallibility in the Church

628
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,760
because it would be on the
history that we we we

629
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,520
disfellowshipped or removed the
president of the Church from

630
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,960
office.
That's that's a good point too,

631
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,280
right in the other direction.
I just can't imagine the fallout

632
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,800
from impeaching a sitting church
president.

633
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,560
That would have been that would
have been catastrophic it.

634
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:51,680
Would have been absolutely on
June 14th, 19 O 6, Patriarch

635
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,120
Judson Tolman marries his sixth
wife.

636
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,120
The marriage is also solemnized
and performed by a Bishop, Dan

637
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,600
Muir of the West Bountiful ward
at another state patriarchs

638
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:09,000
house, Israel Barlow Junior, at
his house in Bountiful.

639
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,440
On the same day, Dan Muir
married his second wife,

640
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:20,480
Georgina Barlow, which was
Patriarch Israel Barlow,

641
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,520
Junior's niece, and they were
sealed together by Judson

642
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,040
Tolman.
All right.

643
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,040
They're doing some cooperative
efforts.

644
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,640
Right.
OK, moving on.

645
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,720
According to D Michael Quinn, on
June 23rd, 19 O 6, according to

646
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:42,200
the diary of Mission President
Joseph E Robinson recently

647
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,880
released, Apostle Matthias F
Cowley made the first earliest

648
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,440
verified distribution of a copy
of the 1886 revelation given to

649
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,160
President John Taylor on the New
and Everlasting Covenant.

650
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,040
So that's a that's a fun one.
So what happens with that story?

651
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,920
Because John W Taylor common
comments on that later during

652
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,240
his trial.
So Joseph Robinson writes in his

653
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:09,560
journal that something regarding
Matthias Cowley distributing the

654
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,360
copy to the revelation.
What happened?

655
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,560
Was Joseph E Robinson hearing
from?

656
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,400
Other people that the authority
had been passed on, like we

657
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,240
discussed and he went and told
the 12, you know, and some

658
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:22,520
mission presidents that the
authority has been perpetuated.

659
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,960
He's now trying to find the
source material, and he goes and

660
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,840
asks Matthias Cowley about it,
and Matthias Cowley then refers

661
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,520
him to John W Taylor's
brother-in-law, Rodney Badger.

662
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:38,920
And Rodney Badger had the
original, you know, the original

663
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,760
revelation in his possession at
that point in time.

664
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,680
And he made a copy of For
Brother Robinson.

665
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,440
Is there any indication that
this was ever that that

666
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,360
revelation was ever circulated
throughout the church?

667
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,160
It's.
Well like like Quinn is saying

668
00:40:56,240 --> 00:41:00,320
the the earliest verification
that it's being distributed now

669
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,640
underground widely is it's we're
in June of nineteen O 6 and so,

670
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,800
so thinking but look at the
writing on the walls here.

671
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:14,320
Taylor and Callie have just been
cut off and that's you know,

672
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,560
they've now allegedly, I'm
alleging that they authorized

673
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,920
Pullman to to do his work as
he's starting to do this.

674
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,560
John Wooley's about to start as
well.

675
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,160
And so the pieces fit that even
though that they got cut off

676
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,480
from the 12, they actually still
and in church writings they were

677
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,200
referred to as apostles still
even though they were outside

678
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,800
the corner of the 12.
So it's really interesting.

679
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:41,320
In a priesthood, in Passion, you
have two apostles which we know

680
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,520
can operate outside the Quorum
of the 12 because they're not

681
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,840
the first ones.
You had Daniel H Wells, who led

682
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,040
the novel Legion during the Utah
War against Johnson's Army.

683
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,160
He was never a quorum of the 12
member.

684
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,080
Brigham Young ordained three of
his sons apostles, two of which

685
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:59,840
never became members of the
Quorum of the 12.

686
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,920
Brigham Junior, the Third was
not originally made a member of

687
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,960
the Quorum of the 12, but later
was added when there was a

688
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:12,200
vacancy and Joseph F Smith
himself was ordained an apostle

689
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,440
secretly outside the member of
the outside the membership of

690
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:20,680
the Quorum of the 12, and was
also added in later when there

691
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,280
was a vacancy.
And so this thing is not without

692
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,720
precedent.
But now, legally speaking,

693
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,960
holding the virtue of their
apostleship, they still holding

694
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,800
that virtue are not technically
bound by the orders of

695
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,880
conferring with their quorum,
because they don't belong to a

696
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,000
quorum.
So they've in some ways they've

697
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,240
been set free in.
Some ways they've been set free

698
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:44,480
and that's the way I look at
this.

699
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,680
Right.
And so they're still magnifying

700
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,680
their duties to build up the
Kingdom of God by making sure a

701
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,880
holy principle does not diminish
or die from off the earth.

702
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,960
And this is the way that they're
doing it, is by distributing the

703
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,200
1886 revelation, OK?
As well as helping people find

704
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,280
the right channels to people
that have got this authority,

705
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:10,160
like Tolman, Woolley or what
have you, whoever else.

706
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,240
So would you, would you call
this maybe the first major

707
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:17,400
schism that we're seeing with
authority now from the Church?

708
00:43:17,720 --> 00:43:19,520
I think this is the beginning of
it, Yeah, absolutely.

709
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,200
And you know, especially when we
look at the characters, it's, we

710
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,520
know it's.
So in this case we would break

711
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,960
this down.
Callie is recommending to Joseph

712
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,400
E Robinson, who is in the
personal inner circle with

713
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,960
Joseph F Smith, to go to John W
Taylor's brother-in-law to get a

714
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,200
copy of the revelation.
We also know that John W Taylor

715
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,120
was holding meetings with Judson
Tolman.

716
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:44,280
So these things all connect to
John W Taylor in some way, form

717
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:45,880
or fashion.
And it's going to get more

718
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,200
intricate by the way, where as
we get on because they're all

719
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,680
more connections just like that.
And I will.

720
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,320
I will point those out as we get
to it.

721
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,840
Also, you know, July the next
month after you know Robinson

722
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,000
gets a copy of the 1886
Revelation.

723
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,320
John Wooley in the East
Bountiful Ward makes a talk,

724
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,680
gives a talk wherein he says he
thought that there was a great

725
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,880
responsibility placed upon his
shoulders and prayed to God to

726
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:23,120
bless all, Quinn writes aside
from his alleged ordination in

727
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,600
September of 1886, he might have
been thinking of the patriarchal

728
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,520
blessing that Joseph Smith
senior gave to him when he was 8

729
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,840
years old on March 19th, 1840.
Quote, thou wilt receive keys

730
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,040
and words of knowledge and
power, and thou will be called

731
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:46,520
the Lord's Anointed Wow.
In addition to that meeting.

732
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:51,720
I do really think that John
Wooley was also in connection

733
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:55,920
with Judson Tolman and and John
W Taylor and Matthias Cowley and

734
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,800
we're and had this
responsibility placed upon his

735
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,800
shoulders, which is what he's
remarking on.

736
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,640
Because, I mean, this is right
on the heels of it's two months

737
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:09,040
after Cowley and Taylor just got
cut off and now he's saying I

738
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,440
have a great responsibility
placed on my shoulders two

739
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,600
months after they have been
shown to resign.

740
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,720
You know, he's he's admitting
that or saying that.

741
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,480
Yeah.
So in some ways it's insinuating

742
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,360
Taylor's going to work now.
I mean, you're there's no more.

743
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,080
The dog's off the chain, so to
speak, and can can do what he

744
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:30,920
needs to do.
Yep.

745
00:45:31,720 --> 00:45:35,120
Further evidence to that is
Quinn states that in August 6th,

746
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:40,840
19 O 6, John W Taylor encourages
and provides for one of his

747
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,400
friends in Canada to marry
epiclygamously.

748
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:49,040
So the month after that, you
know, he's he's still helping

749
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,200
people.
A month after that, September

750
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:57,760
2nd, 19 O 6, Judson Tolman
marries a stake presidency

751
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,320
counselor named James A
Eldridge.

752
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,600
He was Reed Smooth's
brother-in-law.

753
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:11,520
Anyways, Judson Tolman marries
him to his second wife, Joseph F

754
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,800
Smith, also in 1911.
You know, five years down the

755
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,720
road also dissuaded the apostles
from punishing Eldridge, and he

756
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:23,440
was allowed to remain in his
position as a president, a

757
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,320
counselor to a state presidency
until 1915.

758
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,040
Wow.
So he he was off the hook.

759
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,080
Even even after Pullman gets
excommunicated and they start

760
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,360
finding out about all the
marriages that he performs, this

761
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,320
guy was left completely
unharmed.

762
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,000
It makes me wonder what what
Joseph F Smith's criteria was

763
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,400
right And and I I think some of
it and and correct me if I'm

764
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,000
wrong, I mean, I think some of
it might be can you keep your

765
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,720
mouth shut, right?
Can you not 'cause the church

766
00:46:55,720 --> 00:46:57,800
undue harm?
Sure.

767
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,040
I'm sure that was part of it.
Can you be low key enough to to

768
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,560
not do this?
Yeah, absolutely.

769
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,800
And I the, you know, as we've
remarked once, we're on the

770
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,720
other side what we should
definitely do an interview with

771
00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:11,920
Joseph F Smith too, 'cause I
always want to know what he's

772
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:13,800
thinking too at some of these
instances.

773
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:18,080
Not that I don't, not that I
don't understand already, but I

774
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,400
would just like to hear it from
him anyways.

775
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:26,360
In getting into nineteen O 7,
this is when John W Taylor now.

776
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:29,920
So he's he's removed from all
leadership positions in the

777
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,440
church.
That gives him a lot more

778
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:39,240
freedom.
He ends up moving all of his

779
00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:43,560
families together in Provo.
Yeah, he for his entire life up

780
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,760
to this point, he's had one wife
in this city, one wife in this

781
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,160
country.
And he he moves all of his wives

782
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,640
to Provo, UT with the help of
Nathan Clark, who was his

783
00:47:53,640 --> 00:48:00,120
neighbor in Farmington.
And because of his, the lack of

784
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:04,480
responsibilities, he's able to
bring his family into harmony,

785
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,200
you know, and there's no more
fear of being found out, of

786
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,400
hiding.
It's all out in the open right

787
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,240
at this point.
And so this is the environment

788
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:15,440
that Samuel Wooley Taylor was
born into.

789
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:20,720
And he, he writes about his own
life saying that.

790
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,720
And he was born in 19 O 7.
That's that first year that they

791
00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:27,120
moved down there.
He said, in my early years, we

792
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:31,240
were all one big family.
All my siblings were siblings.

793
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,320
There was nothing half about it.
You can't help but think that in

794
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:40,000
some ways, even though he was
cut off from the church, that

795
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,800
this in some way was a reward.
That's exactly what I was going

796
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,880
to get to.
That that this is a time at

797
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:53,160
which John W Taylor has has
fought the fight for so long to

798
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:57,320
to preserve this principle, yet
keep everything on the down low

799
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,120
and now he can just be with his
family.

800
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,360
Yeah.
And he's and he was not immune

801
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,080
to the strife that came with the
jealousies or the insecurities

802
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,080
that his wives felt about the
other wives.

803
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:14,160
And there was times, there was
years where Nettie, Nettie,

804
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:19,760
Wooley Taylor never talked to
the first two wives years and

805
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,640
now everyone's there.
And Samuel, you know, one of one

806
00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,040
of Nettie's youngest remarks,
and you have entire you have an

807
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,080
entire generation or an older, a
crop of the older kids that are

808
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,040
now in adulthood, one of his
first two wives, or even from

809
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,600
his third wife.
Young adults anyways, who lived

810
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:42,200
in separation.
But now the younger kids are all

811
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:44,240
family.
They're all siblings.

812
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,680
OK.
I'm I'm gonna, I'm going to get

813
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,720
up on my soapbox here for a
minute, so you're going to have

814
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:52,160
to bear with me on this.
You're just fine.

815
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:57,720
OK, first, to those out there
struggling right now, and I know

816
00:49:57,720 --> 00:50:02,160
you're out there where you're
living a life where you have a

817
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:05,720
couple of wives and you're
trying to hold this on the down

818
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:06,920
low.
Just stop.

819
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,280
Just stop.
You've done enough.

820
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:13,600
It's time for you to come out.
It's time for you to just be

821
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,320
able to be you.
We live in a time now.

822
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:18,840
Where?
Everything goes on the left.

823
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,680
You want to marry a mop that's
on the table.

824
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:28,880
So it's it's, it's, you know, we
should have equal

825
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,720
representation.
And it's exhausted.

826
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:33,840
I've done the whole hiding
thing.

827
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:40,360
It is horribly exhausting.
Next, I know of a situation

828
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:48,000
where the kids did not even know
who their dad was.

829
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:52,440
Thought this was just a guy who
would come over every so often

830
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,560
and spend the night.
Enough.

831
00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:59,760
Enough.
I don't want to hear one more

832
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,920
damn word about being scared.
Part of this podcast is to kick

833
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,560
down the door so this crap never
has to happen ever again.

834
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,760
Kick it down.
Get out of the shadows, because

835
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:14,960
only bad crap happens in the
shadows.

836
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:20,120
And live your life, period.
If you're letting fear dictate

837
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,680
what you do, you're in a sad
state of affairs.

838
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,600
I get it.
We owe a debt to our progenitors

839
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:31,480
who, and I shouldn't even say
ma, are a lot of people's

840
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:36,640
progenitors who kept this alive,
who were worried about their

841
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,560
children and did have to hide
out of necessity.

842
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,120
But those days are over.
If you're on the up and up and

843
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,440
there's no abuse, you have no
issues.

844
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,320
No issues.
And it's time to put this to bed

845
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,240
because we're doing damage to
families and it's just time to

846
00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:56,800
come out.
And I can testify to this there

847
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:02,360
is no better feeling in all the
world than just being free to do

848
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,680
you to live according to your
principles or the principles God

849
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:11,160
has given you and just say to
the hell with everybody else.

850
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,840
It is absolutely liberating.
And it's time we get there as a

851
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:21,600
people pay homage to our to to
the ancestors who came before

852
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,200
us, to kept keep this alive in
the shadows.

853
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,520
But we owe it to them now, in a
weird way, to start getting more

854
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,160
vocal than we've ever done
before.

855
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,160
I'm done.
You can continue my.

856
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,560
I apologize.
No, I love it.

857
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,080
I love it.
And I wholly agree.

858
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,680
The same year, 19 O 7, John W
Taylor tried to persuade future

859
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,040
church apostle Hubie Brown to
marry two wives at the same time

860
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,400
after he got off his mission.
Way to get after it.

861
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,040
Wow, look at him.
Unfortunately, he didn't.

862
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,000
And that's an interesting thing
to consider, that, I mean, Hubie

863
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,040
Brown was from Canada and John W
Taylor had a lot of things going

864
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:02,800
on in Canada for a long time.
But we see later on that even

865
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:09,520
Hubie Brown's father was look at
the Advocate Post Manifesto and

866
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,440
he's hanging out.
His name was Homer Brown and he

867
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,000
was a patriarch in Granite
Stake, I believe.

868
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:22,520
It's so interesting how they set
up these certain stakes to be

869
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,360
safe havens.
Yeah, yeah.

870
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,120
And so Homer Brown is traveling
in the 1920s with Matthias

871
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,520
Cowley.
And they're doing things like

872
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:37,960
administering to the sick, to
children who are in these

873
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:44,400
underground families, you know,
and which, you know, Matthias

874
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,480
Cowley was not allowed to use as
priesthood according to the

875
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,400
verdict of the trial he attended
in 1911.

876
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:54,320
So I'm happy that he was
ignoring that because, and I'll

877
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:59,200
just remark here, Matthias
Cowley and John W Taylor were

878
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:05,040
tried for their membership or
their fellowship by the form of

879
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:09,280
the 12, which, technically
speaking, is illegal, right?

880
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:11,680
It should have gone to a High
Council.

881
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:13,760
Yep.
And so you could make the

882
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,560
argument, according to the laws
of the church, that the verdict

883
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:22,240
and the outcome of those trials
was illegal and null.

884
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:26,000
Right, right.
Well, I I also find it

885
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,840
interesting that nowhere in the
Doctrine Covenants where it

886
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,880
deals with this sort of thing
that we ever see anything where

887
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,880
quote, somebody's priesthood is
revoked by another man, right.

888
00:54:38,240 --> 00:54:41,600
What we come up with is that the
Lord is saying Amen to the power

889
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,880
of that priesthood if you're in
transgression.

890
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:50,360
And so this idea of priesthood
only existing within the

891
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:56,600
confines of a branch of
Mormonism, I just don't think

892
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,040
hold water right now.
Certainly that branch has car

893
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,000
Blanc to either recognize or not
recognize that authority.

894
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:10,080
But to me, from what I can see
in scripture, the Lord is the

895
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,320
only one that can revoke it, so
to speak.

896
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:14,640
Sure.
Absolutely, and I concur with

897
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,160
you.
Unfortunately, despite his

898
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:22,480
father's sponsorship of new
polygamy, Hugh B.

899
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,480
Brown, when he was later a
member of the First Presidency,

900
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:30,920
helped write the law in 1935,
making plural marriage a felony

901
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,200
in Utah instead of a
misdemeanor, which was worse

902
00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:39,320
than it ever had been back in
the 1880s and up to 1935.

903
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:44,400
Very sad.
That same year, 19 O 7 is when

904
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,840
First Presidency Secretary and
President of the 70, George

905
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,800
Reynolds, performs a plural
marriage, more than likely under

906
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,200
the direction of Joseph F Smith
or another member of the First

907
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,680
Presidency.
I would guess Anthony H Lund, I

908
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:00,640
don't know that for a fact.
I don't have that information.

909
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:05,120
But if you recall from last
episode, you know he was the one

910
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:08,120
in the read through hearing
saying I helped write the

911
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:11,560
manifesto, right.
And now he's And now he's

912
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:18,040
performing a plural marriage. 9
February 21st, 19 O 7 Carl

913
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:22,840
Badger, who is a secretary to
Senator Reid Smoot, writes a

914
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:27,880
letter to his wife saying I must
confess that the situation is

915
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:31,480
beyond me.
Reid Smoot has just said that he

916
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,280
intends to tell the brethren
when he gets home that if they

917
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,560
want to continue this polygamy
business, they must leave the

918
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,560
United States.
I asked if he meant unlawful

919
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,320
cohabitation and he said no.
Well, I am dumbfounded that

920
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,920
there should be the least
suggestion of the possibility of

921
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,560
the church attempting to
establish polygamy, that it

922
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:51,640
should be thought of for a
moment.

923
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,040
The Senator also says that a
John W Taylor and Matthias F

924
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,120
Cowley are brought back and
placed in the Quorum of the

925
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,240
Apostles.
Nothing will save us from the

926
00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:03,880
wrath of the American people.
AI cannot entertain the thought

927
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,120
that such a thing is possible.
To think of it as being possible

928
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:10,760
is to make the Church out a
hypocrite, A hypocritical fraud.

929
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,480
But there is this.
But here is the senator talking

930
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,120
about the calamity as though it
were a possibility.

931
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:24,840
You know this this might be you
know that time in which I know

932
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,920
from speaking to certain bishops
and stake presidents there's a

933
00:57:28,920 --> 00:57:33,320
lot of pressure put on those
guys to preserve quote the good

934
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,480
name of the church.
And and this might be really

935
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:42,640
it's it's first iteration in in
modern day so to speak where

936
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:46,880
it's it's all about the
perception right and and if we

937
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,800
don't have the right perception
we're gonna be in trouble.

938
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,880
Yep.
I never gave too much of A care

939
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:59,040
for that.
But I do understand it. 21st of

940
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:04,680
February 19, O Seven, we have a
recorded instance of another

941
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:09,080
polygamy advocate who was a
patriarch named Harrison Sperry.

942
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:16,320
And he would go around giving
patriarchal blessings to

943
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:20,800
children who were in these
underground families because

944
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:25,480
they have no access to
patriarchs in the church,

945
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,040
legally speaking, right.
It's not going to some of these

946
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:33,360
people who you know are not
being born or they're, as we

947
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:35,320
know from Anthony H London,
Joseph muster.

948
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,320
The parents are keeping the
records, but they're not on the

949
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,720
records of the church.
Right.

950
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:46,200
And so this this man, God bless
him, was doing a very great work

951
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,720
in providing patriarchal
blessings for the family members

952
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:54,480
in those situations.
Just think about how crazy this

953
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:57,080
time is, right?
I mean you have you have

954
00:58:57,080 --> 00:58:59,400
families living on the
underground and it takes

955
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:05,280
somebody who's moved by the Lord
to feel, to feel sympathy

956
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,720
towards them and then goes and
has to administer blessings on

957
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,800
the down low.
Their whole world must have

958
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,040
seemed upside down.
Oh, sure, Oh, sure.

959
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,040
Do you know who Harrison Sperry
is?

960
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:21,240
Or who is the OR have you ever,
have you ever heard of Sydney B

961
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:22,880
Sperry?
No.

962
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,240
Oh, so, so this Harrison Sperry
doing this great work here is

963
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,360
the father of Sydney B Sperry,
who was basically like the first

964
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:37,440
two nibbly, OK he died in, I
want to say like 1967 or

965
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,320
something like that.
He got his bachelor's degree in

966
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,200
chemistry in the eight in the
1800s still.

967
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:51,960
And then he ends up he ends up
teaching at BYU and then he gets

968
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,880
a doctorate from the University
of Chicago in ancient languages

969
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:58,240
and biblical studies and stuff
like that.

970
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:04,080
And he becomes basically he's
famous in the church for his Old

971
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:07,240
Testament biblical scholarship.
Yeah, so basically, yeah.

972
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:11,280
Like I said, the first Q Nibbly,
lots of cools.

973
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:12,680
I've seen some cool stuff from
him.

974
01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:14,800
It's been a while since I've
looked into that.

975
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,480
Q Nibbly had nothing but praise
for Sydney B Sperry, and even to

976
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:25,040
this day I believe BYU holds a
yearly historical symposium

977
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:26,760
named after I.
Was going to say the Sperry

978
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:28,800
Symposium, right?
Yeah, yeah.

979
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,640
OK.
And so this is his his father

980
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,400
that's doing this underground
polygamy work.

981
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:40,720
Nice, nice.
And any idea how his son felt

982
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,240
about any of this stuff?
No idea.

983
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:45,520
I'd love to know if he was in
the know on that, but I don't.

984
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:47,800
That's a future research for
another day, OK?

985
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:57,400
Also in this year, Joseph Musser
marries his third wife under the

986
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:01,320
ceiling authority of Patriarch
Judson Tolman, and the marriage

987
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:03,720
is performed at Joseph Musser's
house.

988
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,920
Now apparently I I have one more
quick question.

989
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:12,400
I'm sorry I keep doing this to
you.

990
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,560
Sure Taylor, I think it was 2
episodes ago.

991
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:23,480
Now Taylor seems to go out of
his way to to say OK, who can

992
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:27,600
who can still get this done?
And for some reason, he feels

993
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:32,200
prompted to go to patriarchs.
Yeah.

994
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:36,200
That's an interesting thing.
Any idea why patriarchs and not

995
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,000
somebody else?
Why not find certain stake

996
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:40,800
presidents or something like
that?

997
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,640
Well, it looks like Joseph S
Smith did a little bit about

998
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,480
that too.
I mean, you have Frank Y Taylor

999
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,960
and John M Cannon who were in
the members of the Granite Stake

1000
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:54,560
presidency.
There was Hebert Hale, who was

1001
01:01:54,560 --> 01:02:00,680
the president of Boise State.
But as far as the Patriarchs go,

1002
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,600
I I couldn't tell you that I
know for sure, but I have two

1003
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:11,840
guesses.
Joseph F Smith, one being

1004
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:16,680
extremely sympathetic to the
position of Church Patriarch

1005
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,760
because he's the son and
grandson of the 1st 2:00.

1006
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,440
Right to.
The church, you know, Hiram and

1007
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:28,840
Joseph Senior and his brother
John Smith was the patriarch at

1008
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:30,960
this point.
And then his son ends up or

1009
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,560
Grant his grandson ends up being
the next patriarch of the

1010
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:35,560
church.
Also during Joseph F Smith's

1011
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:39,880
life, Joseph F Smith also made a
remark in one conference that

1012
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,160
technically speaking, the office
of Patriarch to the church is

1013
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:45,720
above president of the Church.
And he said we're not going to

1014
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:47,720
have a reformation over this
right now.

1015
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:51,280
But that's my understanding
essentially is that the office

1016
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:54,200
of Patriarch is actually a head
of President of the Church,

1017
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:57,600
which is just really interesting
on several levels.

1018
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:07,480
But also according to Section
124 in where it's declared

1019
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,760
through revelation from the Lord
of Joseph Smith Junior, that

1020
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:15,400
Hiram should step forward and
receive the mantle of prophets

1021
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,040
here and Revelator.
It basically says, I give unto

1022
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:23,040
you, Joseph Hiram Smith, to be
Patriarch unto you and to

1023
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:27,240
exercise the ceiling keys over
my church.

1024
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:30,760
And so was there some
extrapolation that according to

1025
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:36,200
section 124, section 124, verse
124 that the office of

1026
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,560
Patriarchs held ceiling keys?
It could be that there was some

1027
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:43,240
extrapolation later on.
We had a lot of denials from

1028
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:51,240
church leaders saying, no,
that's not what that means, but

1029
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:52,680
I don't know.
I couldn't tell you.

1030
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:56,800
I'm hesitant to endorse those
remarks for obvious reasons.

1031
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,880
Right.
Interesting, but we we I sent

1032
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:02,720
you that text from Heber J.
Grant.

1033
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:07,440
You know, that message from the
First Presidency in 1921 where

1034
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,360
he just says we've had to cut
off all these patriarchs in the

1035
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,640
church for thinking they have a
right to perform plural

1036
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:14,400
marriage.
Well, why did they think they

1037
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:16,720
have the right?
Right, right.

1038
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:21,920
And and this, this goes to, and
This is why I find what Drew

1039
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,920
Brownie is doing, Shout out to
Drew Brownie with the Doctrine

1040
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,080
and Covenants, right, with his
annotated version of the

1041
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,840
Doctrine and Covenants.
Not only will you be able to see

1042
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:34,480
the text, but you're going to
see what the common

1043
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:38,600
understanding was amongst people
for that time.

1044
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:41,080
Right.
And I tend to think you're that

1045
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:44,920
far back in history, you're that
much closer to the font, so to

1046
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:50,120
speak, that that springs forth
in Joseph Smith that what they

1047
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:54,240
think isn't conceived in a
vacuum, right.

1048
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:57,560
They're obviously getting these
ideas, most likely from Joseph

1049
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:01,200
himself or other high-ranking
early leaders.

1050
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:08,360
And and it it it it, it goes to
show that that even though the

1051
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:13,240
word stays the same, the
meanings have a way of changing.

1052
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:20,720
So I will note on this topic of
the Patriarch office that Joe

1053
01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:24,880
after Joseph Smith started
having the quorum of the 12

1054
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,640
sustained in church conferences
as Prophet Sears and revelators.

1055
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,000
He had his brother Hiram.
I don't know about his, I don't

1056
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,960
know about his father, but Hiram
was when the authorities of the

1057
01:05:35,960 --> 01:05:37,880
church were presented in order
from President.

1058
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:42,160
Patriarch was next after
President before the Quorum of

1059
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:47,560
the 12th that was continued down
the line even when Brigham Young

1060
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:51,520
was President of the Church.
That when John Smith, Joseph

1061
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:55,920
Smith seniors brother was placed
as page work to the church after

1062
01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:00,560
Hiram died he was sustained as
an authority in the church over

1063
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:03,240
the Quorum of the 12 after the
First Presidency.

1064
01:06:05,280 --> 01:06:10,840
That changed after John Smith,
uncle John Smith died and John

1065
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:15,720
Smith, son of Hiram Smith became
President Patriarch of the

1066
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:17,000
church.
But not immediately.

1067
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:21,440
There was some personality
issues between Brigham Young and

1068
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:28,240
John Smith, and after enough
years had passed, they decided

1069
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:32,560
to stop emphasizing that that
office during that time period.

1070
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:37,240
But while as soon as Joseph F
Smith was back, you know, was

1071
01:06:37,240 --> 01:06:41,720
himself in office, he changed it
back and he started having his

1072
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,920
brother John Smith to Brigham
Young, De emphasized, brought

1073
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,960
back into that sustained same
sustaining order.

1074
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:54,280
And even in meetings, had the
tear he would have, he would

1075
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,720
have his brother meet with the
form of the 12 jointly with the

1076
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,360
First Presidency in those
meetings, and his brother would

1077
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,880
sit next to him in prominence.
Wow.

1078
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,560
And so, so Joseph S Smith had
very, very much so believed that

1079
01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:09,440
there was some.
There was a certain dignity, at

1080
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:13,920
least for that office that is
not talked about in the in the

1081
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:15,040
church today.
No.

1082
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:18,480
And if I'm not mistaken, the
church since, oh what was his

1083
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:20,560
name?
I can't think of what his what

1084
01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:23,760
his last name was.
Now they they've basically done

1085
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:27,360
away with that office entirely.
Now Patriarch of the Church,

1086
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,960
they.
Got rid of it in 70. 8 Yep, Yep.

1087
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,640
And.
And I know the guy died in the

1088
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,400
early 2000s and they just never.
He didn't.

1089
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:38,720
He died in 2013.
He was over 100 years old.

1090
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:41,400
Wow.
Wow, I thought it was the early

1091
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:46,800
2000s and.
He is the elder G Smith and he.

1092
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:53,360
Is thank you he.
Is the longest running general

1093
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:55,680
authority, you know person to
have office as a general

1094
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:58,880
authority in the church.
If you, if you count all those

1095
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:03,000
years, even after he was retired
because he kept, he kept his

1096
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:06,440
status as MRI emeritus.
Is that how you say that

1097
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,560
emeritus?
Yeah, Emeritus, Yeah, Emeritus.

1098
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:12,240
He had the emeritus status, but
it's still technically general

1099
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:14,640
authority.
So he was the longest running

1100
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:16,240
general authority in church
history.

1101
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:17,920
Wow.
And.

1102
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,680
And to me that took fortitude to
just say, yeah, we're not we're

1103
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:26,000
going to do away with this
office and not not put it back.

1104
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:27,520
Yeah, when that.
Was Kimball?

1105
01:08:28,040 --> 01:08:29,880
Yep, that was Spencer.
Spencer Woolley.

1106
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,319
Kimball.
You know, one one of the things

1107
01:08:32,319 --> 01:08:37,600
I've often wondered is if if the
patriarchs didn't have weren't a

1108
01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:44,760
a good outlet because certainly
while there's those above them,

1109
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,479
they don't really report to
anybody outside the you know,

1110
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:51,680
the Quorum of the 12, right?
And to me it's if.

1111
01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:53,960
If even than that, I don't even
know if they were doing that at

1112
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,000
this at any given point.
Right.

1113
01:08:56,000 --> 01:09:00,800
And so they they kind of have a
blank check so to speak that's

1114
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:05,240
been yeah been signed to him and
and they and it wouldn't look

1115
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:11,800
out of place to go to somebody's
home to give a blessing and and

1116
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:14,760
get done right.
And so it was, it was probably

1117
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:20,240
one of those things that that it
just made sense as well as as

1118
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:24,319
you were alluding to in in 121,
there seems to be something

1119
01:09:24,319 --> 01:09:28,399
there with ceiling keys being
given to patriarchs.

1120
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:32,200
Yeah, I think so.
I think that there's definitely,

1121
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:37,439
if it wasn't believed by those
who were consulting with these

1122
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:40,479
patriarchs that there was
already authority inherent in

1123
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:46,800
the office, it was definitely
being applied to them, maybe by

1124
01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:50,840
by virtue of that verse that we
discussed as well.

1125
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:52,840
It says that they can hold
ceiling keys, so might as well

1126
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,640
just reconfer it on them, you
know?

1127
01:09:57,080 --> 01:10:01,360
You know the other thing
fascinating about 1/21 is that

1128
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:06,120
you you have essentially 2
simultaneously 2 presidents of

1129
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:09,720
the church operating at the same
time.

1130
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:16,280
Joseph and Hiram both kind of
throws a monkey wrench into the

1131
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:18,640
whole one man thing.
Yeah.

1132
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:22,640
Yes, it does.
So, yeah, so we're back in with

1133
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:24,640
Joseph Musser.
He's entering into.

1134
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,480
These.
Into this work with Judson

1135
01:10:27,480 --> 01:10:31,680
Tolman and likely was
recommended by Matthias Cowley.

1136
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:35,080
Later on when Tolman's
excommunicated, he told the 12

1137
01:10:35,920 --> 01:10:38,600
that those marriages that he
performed, the marriages he

1138
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:41,880
performed, were done upon
recommendations from either

1139
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:45,800
Cowley, Henry S Tanner, or
Nathan Clark.

1140
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:54,320
I personally believe, I theorize
or hypothesize that really the

1141
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:57,640
recommendations that Judson
Tolman was getting through

1142
01:10:57,640 --> 01:10:59,840
Nathan Clark were from John W
Taylor.

1143
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:04,200
That's my theory, I.
And so it's another layer of

1144
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:06,720
protection, right?
You know.

1145
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:08,680
Right.
Well, that's.

1146
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:11,080
Been really.
That's got to really irritate

1147
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:15,400
those six apostles who thought,
OK, we're done with John W

1148
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,400
Taylor, but he's just out there
doing his thing.

1149
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:21,880
Yeah.
And he's working through these

1150
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:24,720
channels that they're.
I mean you see you already see

1151
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:28,440
this network that's forming.
You got Henry S Tanner, Callie

1152
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:35,400
Clark Robinson, Rodney Badger.
And it's going to, it's going to

1153
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:38,280
widen here.
But yeah, we got Sperry Brown,

1154
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:43,240
John M Cannon, Joseph Musser is
brought into this.

1155
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:45,440
Now this is where he gets
brought into it.

1156
01:11:45,440 --> 01:11:48,840
You know as this movement that's
roto fundamentalist movement.

1157
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:54,840
It's not just, you know, the
that first marriage that he had

1158
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:58,440
from was was endorsed by the
form of the 12th quite highly.

1159
01:11:58,440 --> 01:12:02,360
You know we had John, John Henry
Smith and Roger Clawson and

1160
01:12:02,440 --> 01:12:05,320
Matthias Calley when they were
when he was in fellowship saying

1161
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:09,560
yes, we'll help you live this
law, but now it's even more on

1162
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:11,920
the fringe than than ever
before.

1163
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:16,880
He gets caught, though, and this
is so interesting to me.

1164
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:24,400
In July of 19 O 7, Salt Lake
Tribune writes, Joseph W Musser

1165
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:28,160
is the Chief clerk and assistant
secretary of the Utah Light and

1166
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:30,640
Railway Company.
His father is assistant

1167
01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:32,840
historian and political
mouthpiece of the Church of

1168
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:34,280
Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints.

1169
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,840
He himself is a high ecclesiast
in the church because he was

1170
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:42,400
serving on the High Council on
Granite State, though about so

1171
01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:45,920
but about 40 years of age.
He is high counselor, yeah, of

1172
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:48,840
Granite Stake, and as such
passes on the difference between

1173
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:52,880
the Saints of his stake and the
decisions are final, save that

1174
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,600
an appeal may be taken to the
First Presidency.

1175
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,840
The president of Granite Stake,
Frank Y Taylor, and his second

1176
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:03,040
counselor, John M Cannon, are
publicly known to have recently

1177
01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:06,640
contracted plural marriages.
So have Sunday School.

1178
01:13:06,920 --> 01:13:09,720
So have the Sunday School
Superintendent and others of

1179
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:12,560
this stake.
In fact, Granite Stake is a

1180
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:16,960
hotbed of new polygamy and
forestdale, which is where which

1181
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,240
is a part of the stake is often
times spoken of as polygamy,

1182
01:13:20,240 --> 01:13:23,880
Ville in as much as it is refuge
of those who are violating the

1183
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:28,560
laws by living their religion.
Also, at this point, John W

1184
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,360
Taylor had a house in
forestdale.

1185
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:33,720
Nice.
Yeah, nice.

1186
01:13:33,720 --> 01:13:39,600
And Grant, so that comes out.
And so put a pin in that idea.

1187
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,360
So it's publicized, it's just
been published, that Joseph

1188
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:46,000
Mustard just taken another wife.
And we're going to come back to

1189
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:50,840
that probably pretty soon.
September 1st, 19 O 7, Anthony

1190
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:55,760
Ivins writes.
John W Taylor came to my office,

1191
01:13:55,800 --> 01:13:59,040
had been in connection with
Bishop Bentley and Matthias F

1192
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:03,480
Cowley, accused me of connecting
him with a Bishop Robinson case.

1193
01:14:03,880 --> 01:14:06,560
Said I wanted to make a capital
with the present quorum of

1194
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:09,640
apostles by going to President
Joseph F Smith with the story

1195
01:14:10,400 --> 01:14:13,520
would soon be vacancies to fill
the quorum of the 12 apostles.

1196
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:17,400
In the evening met with Bentley,
Wilson at Taylor and Callie.

1197
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:23,960
So interesting stuff going on,
but a Bishop Robinson, not

1198
01:14:24,240 --> 01:14:28,120
Joseph E Robinson.
Samuel John Robinson, who I

1199
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:35,760
don't recall if they're related.
He took a plural life in Mexico.

1200
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:41,600
He's a Bishop down in Colonia
Dubon and the 12 at this point

1201
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:44,280
are now deliberating and meet
and meeting together to know

1202
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:46,720
whether they should cut off
Samuel Robinson from the church.

1203
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:52,120
And so John W Taylor comes into
Anthony Ivan's office to talk

1204
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:54,320
about it, basically to convince
him not to do it.

1205
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:59,520
Right, right.
And and this is a big step too,

1206
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:02,680
because I think this is the
first time from the way you and

1207
01:15:02,680 --> 01:15:07,000
I have talked that they're now
talking about disciplinary

1208
01:15:07,000 --> 01:15:09,160
actions outside of the United
States.

1209
01:15:09,880 --> 01:15:11,360
Right.
Yep.

1210
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:13,800
Heber J.
Grant.

1211
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:15,720
This is interesting too, right?
Heber J.

1212
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:20,160
Grant writes in his journal.
December 4th, 1907 attended a

1213
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:23,960
regular meeting of the General
Board of the YMN by A.

1214
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:27,520
After this meeting had a talk of
nearly two hours with Roger

1215
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:31,600
Clausen on the status of John W
Taylor and Matthias F Cowley.

1216
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:35,760
My heart goes out in sympathy to
these brethren, so he's not

1217
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,200
fully turned against them at
this.

1218
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:42,680
Point.
He just seems to be so all over

1219
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:47,560
the map.
Grant does just you can't get a

1220
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:50,640
good beat on him.
No, not not quite.

1221
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:56,640
Following that George Albert
Smith is down in Mexico and has

1222
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,400
a priest, a meeting down there
to reorganize the bishopric.

1223
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:04,480
And so, I don't know, I don't
think Samuel Robinson gets cut

1224
01:16:04,480 --> 01:16:07,440
off from the church, but he is
removed from his office as

1225
01:16:07,440 --> 01:16:09,920
Bishop and they they get rid of
him down there.

1226
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:14,960
Why'd I put that there?
I didn't put a date but also

1227
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:22,440
going getting into Jan the New
Year 19 O 8 Patriarch Judson

1228
01:16:22,440 --> 01:16:27,600
Tolman marries Israel Bob Barr
Israel Barlow the 3rd to Alice

1229
01:16:27,600 --> 01:16:31,320
Belva Welling at Henry S
Tanner's office.

1230
01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:37,160
So we know that two marriages
have been performed at Israel

1231
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,760
Barlow Junior's house two years
previous to this.

1232
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:45,480
He is now marrying Israel
Barlow's son, the you know to

1233
01:16:45,480 --> 01:16:51,600
his second wife Israel Barlow.
The third is a brother to John Y

1234
01:16:51,720 --> 01:17:00,880
Barlow and I anthis Barlow and
Edmund Barlow, I think, who

1235
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:03,280
become prominent fundamentalist
leaders down the road.

1236
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:09,280
Gotcha.
Seven out of the 18 marriages

1237
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:12,280
that Tolman performs before he
gets caught off from the church

1238
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:17,560
are done at Henry S Tanner's
office, the first of which the

1239
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:19,680
first marriage.
So sometime during nineteen O 8

1240
01:17:19,760 --> 01:17:24,120
before he marries Israel Barlow
the third, he performs a ceiling

1241
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:30,480
for Alpha J Higgs and marries 2
wives to Tanner himself in his

1242
01:17:30,480 --> 01:17:32,960
office.
So Henry S Tanner has gotten 2

1243
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:35,560
wives through the help of
Matthias Cowley and two wives

1244
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:36,920
through the help of Judson
Pullman.

1245
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:41,200
Alpha J Higgs marries Rodney
Badger's daughter.

1246
01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:42,720
Do you remember who Rodney
Badger is?

1247
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:46,000
Refresh my memory.
Rodney Badger's a brother-in-law

1248
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:48,400
to John W Taylor.
OK, Rodney.

1249
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:51,560
Rodney Badger married John W
Taylor's sister.

1250
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:58,200
Alpha J Higgs marries not John W
Taylor's niece, but a daughter

1251
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:00,600
of Rod niece from a different
wife.

1252
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:06,080
Not not, not Taylor's sister,
but you can't help but see that

1253
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:10,280
maybe Alpha J Higgs was and
Rodney but Badger were connected

1254
01:18:10,280 --> 01:18:14,080
by John W Taylor in that
instance near family

1255
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:18,640
relationship and is sent to
Judson Pullman.

1256
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:23,760
And as Judson Pullman told the
12 I never performed a ceiling

1257
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:26,680
but for anyone that was not
recommended to me by Matthias

1258
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:33,160
Talley, Nathan Clark or Henry S
Tanner, you know, so it all fits

1259
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:35,920
really well.
And Henry S Tanner and John W

1260
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:40,040
Taylor, sure.
I mean I I think the writing is

1261
01:18:40,040 --> 01:18:41,240
on the wall that they were
friends.

1262
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:45,640
Later on, we are going to see
some pretty strong remarks in

1263
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:48,880
favor of Tanner by Taylor, I
believe.

1264
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:54,320
It almost sounds like now Taylor
is beginning to take on kind of

1265
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:58,680
a new mantle, right?
He seems to be the for lack of a

1266
01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:00,840
better term.
I'm not saying this was official

1267
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:04,160
or anything else, but he really
seems to be the first

1268
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:06,440
fundamentalist leader now that
has emerged.

1269
01:19:07,040 --> 01:19:10,680
He's outside the he's out.
He's not completely outside the

1270
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:12,880
church, he's outside the quorum,
right?

1271
01:19:12,880 --> 01:19:15,960
I don't think he's been exed
yet, but he's orchestrating

1272
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:19,200
things behind the scenes now.
He's orchestrating things behind

1273
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:21,760
the scenes, but when things.
Really get Yeah, Leader.

1274
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,240
I might not say, but he could
have been.

1275
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:27,200
And I guess for all intents and
purposes he is leading the

1276
01:19:27,200 --> 01:19:31,240
charge.
Fast forward March 2nd, 19 O 9.

1277
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:35,480
This is when David West Jeff's
also a brother-in-law to John W

1278
01:19:35,480 --> 01:19:39,640
Taylor, because he married
Nettie Woolley's sister Phoebe.

1279
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:44,240
He marries his second and third
wife, which was performed by

1280
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:50,640
Jensen Tolman.
He marries his second wife,

1281
01:19:50,640 --> 01:19:55,760
Nettie Lenora Timpson, and they
were married in Salt Lake City

1282
01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:06,160
and David West, Jeffs writes.
In his reminiscences of his life

1283
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:12,360
that he was introduced to Tolman
through John W Wooley, which is

1284
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:15,640
interesting although they would,
that was probably before they

1285
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:18,680
were all attending those
patriarchal meetings in 19 O1

1286
01:20:18,680 --> 01:20:21,760
together.
So Judson Tolman prophesied 8

1287
01:20:21,760 --> 01:20:24,080
years before this point the
Jeffs would enter into plural

1288
01:20:24,080 --> 01:20:26,240
marriage.
It's taken 8 years, but he is

1289
01:20:26,240 --> 01:20:33,680
now taken two additional wives.
Quinn writes that the meeting

1290
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:37,760
was arranged between Matthias F
Cowley and John W Wooley that

1291
01:20:37,760 --> 01:20:43,680
Brother Judson come to the home
of Brother Cowley, where Brother

1292
01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:49,160
Jeff was married to his to his.
Man, and and now you start

1293
01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:52,080
seeing names that are prominent
and fundamentalism really begin

1294
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:53,880
to crop up.
Yes, I do.

1295
01:20:54,480 --> 01:20:57,600
Yep.
Maybe I should read some?

1296
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:00,760
Of this.
But yeah, so in David West

1297
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:05,160
Jeff's journal, he writes, my
wife, Phoebe came to me one

1298
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:09,680
evening at Iona, Idaho, in 19 O
6 and told me she had been shown

1299
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:12,760
that I should enter into this
law of plural marriage and that

1300
01:21:12,920 --> 01:21:14,680
she had been impressed who it
should be.

1301
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:19,280
Even Lenora Timpson, this all
came to me impressively, as my

1302
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:23,560
mind had been engaged in so many
church duties and also so much

1303
01:21:23,560 --> 01:21:27,080
business responsibilities, that
I had not been considering nor

1304
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:29,800
thinking about complying with
the law which will increase the

1305
01:21:29,800 --> 01:21:33,600
possibilities of entering into
the highest degree of glory in

1306
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:36,800
the celestial Kingdom of God.
Notwithstanding the fact that

1307
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:39,320
Brother Jonathan D Wood, the
second Counselor in the Bishop

1308
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:43,360
Brick of Farmington, upon one
occasion in the year 1900 before

1309
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:47,080
I left for Idaho and shaking my
hand, said, Brother Jess, I have

1310
01:21:47,080 --> 01:21:49,840
had inspiration concerning you.
And I prophecy in the name of

1311
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:53,200
the Lord that the time will come
when you will be inspired to

1312
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:55,160
enter into this law of plural
marriage.

1313
01:21:56,360 --> 01:21:59,120
Wow.
So if you don't know, do you

1314
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:01,240
know the name Timpson as well?
Oh yeah.

1315
01:22:01,440 --> 01:22:05,680
Yeah.
So yeah, so Lenora Timpson was

1316
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:10,040
Alma Adelbert, Timpson's sister,
OK?

1317
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:13,800
Who is her?
Apostle on the The priest of

1318
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:17,200
counsel.
Yep, prominent names down South.

1319
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:20,000
Still, if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah, and this.

1320
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:24,360
And so Lenora Timpson is the
mother of ruling Timpson Jeffs.

1321
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,920
OK.
Also, he writes, when Lenora's

1322
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:30,520
father heard of it, we went to
Bishop Rockwood and gave him the

1323
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:32,840
understanding that Apostle John
W Taylor.

1324
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:36,080
Yeah.
When Lenora's father heard of

1325
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:39,000
it, he went to the Bishop and
gave him the understanding that

1326
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:41,160
Apostle Taylor or my father had
married us.

1327
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:44,720
The Bishop asked me to come to
his home one evening and meet

1328
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:47,800
with him and his first
counselor, which I did in the

1329
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:50,800
upstairs of my Bishop's home.
He told me what Lenora's father

1330
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:53,520
had told him and wanted to know
if I was married to Lenora by

1331
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:57,800
either Apostle John W Taylor or
my father who was a patriarch.

1332
01:22:58,280 --> 01:23:01,000
And I told them it was not true
that we were not married.

1333
01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:03,720
And they said that was all they
wanted to know.

1334
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:08,520
So to my knowledge, he was
probably cut off when he joined

1335
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:10,520
the fundamentalist movement many
years down the road.

1336
01:23:10,520 --> 01:23:13,120
But he he escaped at that point.
I do.

1337
01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:19,240
Believe.
So now, now this is interesting

1338
01:23:19,240 --> 01:23:23,960
because now there's there's
active hunting going on, if you

1339
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:26,520
will.
Right there is, and the Salt

1340
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:29,360
Lake Tribune's publishing crap
like crazy at this point.

1341
01:23:29,360 --> 01:23:33,960
They published that thing on
muster in 19 O 7 when he went to

1342
01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:37,760
Pullman to get his marriage
done, and things are just coming

1343
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:41,040
out like crazy at this point.
I don't have the documentation

1344
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:46,480
for that handy, but there was a
serious campaign from the Salt

1345
01:23:46,480 --> 01:23:48,840
Lake Tribune around this time
which was pretty much putting

1346
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:51,560
the church on blast again, just
like it was during the Reed

1347
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:56,680
smoke hearings and just like it
was in 1890, right?

1348
01:23:56,840 --> 01:24:00,400
So you're saying the only thing
that really is that you can

1349
01:24:00,400 --> 01:24:04,600
really count on is death, taxes,
and the Salt Lake Tribune will

1350
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:08,480
always be a piece of crap rag
that just has it out for the

1351
01:24:08,480 --> 01:24:12,480
church pretty much in general?
Pretty much.

1352
01:24:13,480 --> 01:24:14,720
This is where it gets super
interesting.

1353
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:15,640
We're going.
I love it.

1354
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:17,400
I love the stuff about Alpha J
Higgs.

1355
01:24:17,400 --> 01:24:23,120
So Alpha J Higgs was a secretary
to Heber J.

1356
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:26,520
Grant when Heber J.
Grant was serving as mission

1357
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:33,600
president in England in on March
16th, 19 O 9, Hebrew J.

1358
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:37,440
Grant writes in his diary, had a
long talk with brother Alpha J

1359
01:24:37,440 --> 01:24:40,080
Higgs regarding the manifesto
issued by the Church.

1360
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:43,560
I learned that some people think
that there is still a chance for

1361
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:45,360
plural marriages to be
performed.

1362
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:48,880
Notwithstanding this manifesto
and all the declarations that

1363
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:52,280
have been made by the Presidency
and the Apostles, Brother Higgs

1364
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:56,280
assured me that he would use his
influence to correct any such

1365
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:58,320
impressions.
That is nice.

1366
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:03,520
Nice little little does he know
at this point.

1367
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:11,640
June 23rd, 19 O 9, John W Taylor
marries his sixth wife, Ellen G

1368
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:14,480
Sandberg.
According to D Michael Quinn,

1369
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:18,640
this earns John W Taylor the
distinction of being the only

1370
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:22,360
recorded man to have been
married to four post manifesto

1371
01:25:22,360 --> 01:25:25,640
plural wives.
He married Ellen Georgina

1372
01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:29,520
Sandberg, possibly without
asking permission of Joseph F

1373
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:32,040
Smith.
Apostle Cali performed the

1374
01:25:32,040 --> 01:25:36,480
ceremony, and Judson Tolman
performed a plural marriage for

1375
01:25:36,480 --> 01:25:39,800
John W Taylor's sister-in-law
earlier that month.

1376
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:43,600
I don't know which marriage that
was, but also another connection

1377
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:48,960
of Tolman and Taylor.
Yeah, yeah, they the the the

1378
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:51,640
network is in place now, right?
You can see it.

1379
01:25:51,640 --> 01:25:56,040
It may not have complete form,
but the the players are in

1380
01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:59,280
place.
It's not organization in the set

1381
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:03,040
in the sense that they're trying
to be the leaders of the church.

1382
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:05,240
No.
Or a separate organization.

1383
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:08,040
It is purely to keep the
principle of plural marriage

1384
01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:12,640
alive until the circumstances
are right for the Church to re

1385
01:26:12,640 --> 01:26:14,120
adopt it.
Right.

1386
01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:20,760
Which which you know we have per
our conversation about Joseph

1387
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:24,480
Musser that was the the
understanding right is at some

1388
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:28,360
point this'll and and the
feeling was it would be sooner

1389
01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:32,760
than later.
Anyways, the cat gets out of the

1390
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:38,080
bag at some point and members of
the Forum of the 12 find out

1391
01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:40,960
that John W Taylor married, hit
another wife.

1392
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:47,120
And according to John W Taylor
and other sources, Apostle

1393
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:49,600
George Albert Smith, future
president of the Church,

1394
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:55,360
condemned John W Taylor for that
marriage and suggested that this

1395
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:58,960
was adultery.
And for this, John W Taylor

1396
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:01,720
threatened, threatened to kill
him in a moment of passion, but

1397
01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:05,120
instead used his priesthood to
curse him in the name of the

1398
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:08,680
Lord.
And John W Taylor, according to

1399
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:13,200
D Michael Quinn, says that
George Albert Smith's nervous

1400
01:27:13,200 --> 01:27:17,760
breakdown from the period of
time from 1909 to 1911 was a

1401
01:27:17,760 --> 01:27:22,440
direct result of that curse.
Wow.

1402
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:26,440
Wow.
John W curses George Albert in

1403
01:27:26,440 --> 01:27:28,800
the name of the Lord and has A
and he has a mental breakdown

1404
01:27:28,800 --> 01:27:31,720
the last at least two years.
Yeah, yeah.

1405
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:35,360
And if I'm not mistaken, he
struggles with it throughout the

1406
01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:37,960
rest of his life, right?
It's not as bad as breakdown,

1407
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:41,680
but he still is dealing with
anxiety and depression through

1408
01:27:41,680 --> 01:27:42,920
most of his life.
If I'm not.

1409
01:27:42,920 --> 01:27:45,560
Mistaken.
I think I heard that before.

1410
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:48,960
I wanted to read something to
you that kind of shed some light

1411
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:55,120
on why it is appropriate that
John W Taylor did such a thing

1412
01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:59,080
to curse someone, an apostle, in
the church.

1413
01:28:00,840 --> 01:28:06,360
There is something that has been
done in the very much, at least

1414
01:28:06,360 --> 01:28:09,000
in the higher circles of the
church and is done in the higher

1415
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:13,560
circles of fundamentalism.
It has been perpetuated to this

1416
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:16,920
day in some.
In some circles it started with

1417
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:20,160
Joseph Smith, and you can
actually find it in the

1418
01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:22,600
teachings of the Prophet Joseph
Smith on page one O 6.

1419
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:25,200
But it's called, well,
fundamentalists call it the oath

1420
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:30,240
of brotherhood.
But basically the way it reads

1421
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:33,840
is and so Joseph Smith put
people under this covenant

1422
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:36,200
before he gave them their
washing of the feet.

1423
01:28:38,280 --> 01:28:43,000
And the covenant goes, and I
will now covenant with you

1424
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:46,800
before God, that I will not
listen to or credit any

1425
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:51,240
derogatory report against any of
you, nor condemn you upon any

1426
01:28:51,240 --> 01:28:54,680
testimony beneath the heavens,
short of that testimony, which

1427
01:28:54,680 --> 01:28:58,280
is infallible, until I can see
you face to face, and no of a

1428
01:28:58,280 --> 01:29:00,920
surety.
And I do place unremitted

1429
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,920
confidence in your word.
For I believe you to be men of

1430
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:06,560
truth.
And I ask the same of you when I

1431
01:29:06,560 --> 01:29:10,040
tell you anything that you place
equal confidence in my word.

1432
01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:13,360
For I will not tell you I know
anything that I do not know.

1433
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:22,160
And so George Albert Smith was
in violation of a bill with the

1434
01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:26,320
Brotherhood by by slandering
John W Taylor without going to

1435
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:29,320
him face to face and hearing
about it.

1436
01:29:29,760 --> 01:29:36,680
Well, and and look at some
level, I mean, John WS got to be

1437
01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:39,320
getting tired of it, right.
He's resigned.

1438
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:44,200
He's he's, you know, probably
maligned in a lot of circles

1439
01:29:44,200 --> 01:29:48,920
within the church.
And quite frankly, I mean,

1440
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:52,920
Joseph F Smith is still alive at
this point, right?

1441
01:29:53,800 --> 01:29:56,600
Yep.
And so he probably feels like,

1442
01:29:57,440 --> 01:30:00,920
yeah, I was a RAM in the
thicket, but I'm still operating

1443
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:04,000
based on the call I got.
Yep.

1444
01:30:06,080 --> 01:30:11,680
So we covered that on July 6th,
1909, Hebridge, a grant writes

1445
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:14,240
in his diary.
This morning I had a visit from

1446
01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:17,280
Carl A Badger, and his mother
Louisa A Badger.

1447
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:21,320
From them I learned the sad news
that Bessie Badger had no doubt

1448
01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:24,840
been married to Alpha J Higgs.
After all the warnings that I

1449
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:28,240
had given to Brother Higgs in
Liverpool, and since his return

1450
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:32,000
that no person should enter into
plural marriages, I feel

1451
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:35,440
outraged at his conduct and hope
and pray that we may be able to

1452
01:30:35,440 --> 01:30:39,040
discover who performed the
marriage, as I feel that the man

1453
01:30:39,040 --> 01:30:42,600
who performed such a ceremony,
as well as those entering into a

1454
01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:45,640
relation of this kind, ought to
be excommunicated from the

1455
01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:47,920
Church.
And that's Heber J Grant, right?

1456
01:30:48,760 --> 01:30:50,920
Yeah.
So is this the Heber?

1457
01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:54,600
Is this the first time you can
see Grant going full tilt the

1458
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:56,760
other direction now?
Yeah.

1459
01:30:57,160 --> 01:31:01,600
And yeah, it's because of a
former a friend and a former

1460
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:05,320
secretary of his pretty much had
lied to him, you know, about

1461
01:31:06,600 --> 01:31:09,480
discouraging people into, you
know, entering into the

1462
01:31:09,480 --> 01:31:10,920
principal.
He'd entered into the principal

1463
01:31:10,920 --> 01:31:14,400
himself, and it's coming out.
So now the witch Hunt's gonna

1464
01:31:14,400 --> 01:31:18,640
begin for Jensen Tolman because
I want to find out who who

1465
01:31:18,640 --> 01:31:23,040
officiated for Brother Higgs.
On July 8th, 19 O nine in a

1466
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:27,080
meeting of the Formula 12 Grant
writes in his diary that Brother

1467
01:31:27,080 --> 01:31:29,800
Lyman called upon each and
everyone of the Brethren to give

1468
01:31:29,800 --> 01:31:32,640
him their aid in stopping plural
marriages in the future.

1469
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:35,960
The Brethren were all united in
condemning the course of Brother

1470
01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:38,920
Higgs had a talk with Brother
Alpha J Higgs.

1471
01:31:38,920 --> 01:31:42,680
He positively refused to confess
whether he was married or had

1472
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:44,880
any relations whatever with
Bessie Badger.

1473
01:31:45,440 --> 01:31:48,480
I had another talk with Ralph
and Carl Badger that those would

1474
01:31:48,480 --> 01:31:52,600
be her brothers who called at my
home this evening, and from what

1475
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:55,800
they tell me I am convinced that
their sister has been married to

1476
01:31:55,800 --> 01:32:00,480
Brother Higgs.
The next day, Grant writes in

1477
01:32:00,480 --> 01:32:04,160
his diary, had another talk with
Higgs, but utterly failed to get

1478
01:32:04,160 --> 01:32:07,920
any information from him.
I forbade him from entering the

1479
01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:10,800
temple or attending any of my
prayer circle meetings.

1480
01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:15,000
He is a member of my circle.
I gave him plainly to understand

1481
01:32:15,120 --> 01:32:17,800
that I considered that he was
worthy of excommunication from

1482
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:21,080
the Church.
So Alpha J Higgs was a member of

1483
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:25,000
Hebrew J Grant's personal true
order of prayer quorum as well.

1484
01:32:25,240 --> 01:32:30,680
Wow.
So, so maybe just speculating

1485
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:36,280
here.
Maybe it's not so much that he

1486
01:32:36,280 --> 01:32:41,360
was spurned with a certain lady.
Maybe I played some of it, but

1487
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:45,400
maybe it's the fact he's feeling
threatened in his authority

1488
01:32:45,400 --> 01:32:47,120
somewhat.
Maybe.

1489
01:32:47,560 --> 01:32:51,240
Maybe.
Six days after that, he writes

1490
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:53,520
in his journal.
This morning and afternoon,

1491
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:55,240
seven of the apostles met in the
temple.

1492
01:32:55,240 --> 01:32:59,160
Bishop Joseph Christensen,
Benjamin S Goddard, Charles

1493
01:32:59,160 --> 01:33:04,320
Martin JH Martineau, and others
of the Brethren were examined as

1494
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:07,440
to their knowledge regarding the
alleged marriage of Brother

1495
01:33:07,440 --> 01:33:09,800
Higgs.
None of them had any actual

1496
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:12,920
knowledge of the case, but all
seemed to believe that somebody

1497
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:16,280
had presumed to marry him and
claimed that it was all right

1498
01:33:17,520 --> 01:33:19,480
the next day after that, Heber
J.

1499
01:33:19,480 --> 01:33:24,120
Grant writes in his journal that
quote, Kelsch thought Higgs was

1500
01:33:24,120 --> 01:33:27,840
married and if it was done
properly and revealed to Higgs,

1501
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:32,000
he did not object.
Now that would be a reference to

1502
01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:35,920
Lewis Alma Kelsch Senior, who
was also opposed to polygamist

1503
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:40,120
and father to future apostle
Lewis Kelsch Junior.

1504
01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:46,520
And he's telling Heber J Grant
straight up and well, if it was

1505
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:49,120
done properly and if it was
revealed to him, it's all good,

1506
01:33:49,120 --> 01:33:52,080
right?
Yeah, and.

1507
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:55,720
Almost not like he's he.
He sounds almost oblivious.

1508
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:57,480
Right, of what's going on,
right?

1509
01:33:57,840 --> 01:33:59,360
Like I don't see what the big
deal is.

1510
01:33:59,880 --> 01:34:03,560
That or he's brave and he's very
strongly asserting that this,

1511
01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:08,520
that he that's the way he feels
right in any case.

1512
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:15,320
So Kelsch is also on the general
board of the YNMIA at this time.

1513
01:34:15,480 --> 01:34:17,960
There's a lot of those guys who
are getting cut off or going to

1514
01:34:17,960 --> 01:34:20,080
get cut off because they're
entering into plural marriage,

1515
01:34:20,080 --> 01:34:22,640
which is super interesting.
Joseph Tanner is one of them,

1516
01:34:26,040 --> 01:34:28,720
and Kelsch and Higgs.
They all were members of the

1517
01:34:28,720 --> 01:34:33,600
YMMIA.
And the YMMIA, that's the Young

1518
01:34:33,600 --> 01:34:36,960
Men's Mutual Improvement
Association, right?

1519
01:34:37,840 --> 01:34:39,960
Correct.
Now, would they be considered

1520
01:34:39,960 --> 01:34:44,600
the forerunners to like CESI?
Don't know.

1521
01:34:44,600 --> 01:34:48,200
That's a good question.
That's a good question.

1522
01:34:48,200 --> 01:34:54,840
I don't know the answer to that.
On July 20th, 19 O 9, Heber J.

1523
01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:58,480
Grant writes, had a talk with BH
Roberts and Ida Duesenberry

1524
01:34:58,480 --> 01:35:01,360
regarding plural marriages that
are being performed at the

1525
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:02,960
present time.
And I learned that Brother

1526
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:07,200
Callie was supposed to be quoted
as saying that these marriages

1527
01:35:07,200 --> 01:35:10,560
could be performed today as well
as they ever could, and that it

1528
01:35:10,560 --> 01:35:13,000
was all right to perform them.
These reports had come to

1529
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:15,960
Brother Roberts and Sister
Duesenberry and I am hoping that

1530
01:35:15,960 --> 01:35:18,360
they are not true because if
Brother Callie is saying

1531
01:35:18,360 --> 01:35:20,320
anything of this kind it is an
outrage.

1532
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:23,160
I would naturally think that
after having been dropped from

1533
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:26,680
the Quorum of the 12 that he
would not pressure to make any

1534
01:35:26,680 --> 01:35:29,360
such remarks.
I understand he is a very sick

1535
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:32,320
man or I would investigate the
case at once.

1536
01:35:33,320 --> 01:35:37,880
Now that's an interesting that's
an interesting way that he

1537
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:43,360
phrased that right.
Resign versus drop, right.

1538
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:48,280
It's almost like in this one
entry he shows his cards right

1539
01:35:48,280 --> 01:35:50,880
where they were.
They were kicked out.

1540
01:35:50,880 --> 01:35:56,280
They weren't necessarily, we
allowed them to say, resign to

1541
01:35:56,280 --> 01:36:03,080
save face, but so so that that
would lend credence to the idea

1542
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:07,760
that maybe Hebrew J Grant had
some some foreknowledge of maybe

1543
01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:13,440
this plan that was hatched to
move the church in the direction

1544
01:36:13,440 --> 01:36:17,280
of monogamy being the rule.
At this point, it's more likely

1545
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:19,240
that that's the right direction
that he wants to go.

1546
01:36:19,240 --> 01:36:26,360
In July 22nd, 19 O 9, Anthony
Ivins writes, met at 9:00 AM to

1547
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:29,360
continue the investigation of
the Alpha J Higgs case.

1548
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:33,120
Brother Joseph Summerhayes was
the first person examined.

1549
01:36:33,120 --> 01:36:35,680
So they're going over all the
people that they know that are

1550
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:39,440
have been involved, right?
He's able to keep his

1551
01:36:39,440 --> 01:36:44,080
membership.
Brother Clark from Farmington,

1552
01:36:44,080 --> 01:36:47,200
UT was the next person examined.
So now they got Nathan G Clark

1553
01:36:47,200 --> 01:36:50,960
that they're investigating over
Higgs marriage.

1554
01:36:51,480 --> 01:36:54,240
Both men refused to answer
questions asked.

1555
01:36:54,720 --> 01:36:57,640
They thought men were justified
in taking plural wives now,

1556
01:36:57,640 --> 01:36:59,560
provided they could get them
properly.

1557
01:36:59,840 --> 01:37:02,440
Thought there might be a proper
way to get a plural life.

1558
01:37:03,040 --> 01:37:06,880
At 4:00 PM reconvened.
Rodney Badger first examined.

1559
01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:11,320
He knew nothing in regard to the
marriage of his daughter Bessie

1560
01:37:11,320 --> 01:37:16,480
and Alpha J Higgs.
Hugh J Cannon had taken no wife

1561
01:37:16,480 --> 01:37:20,000
and had given no encouragement
to anyone to take plural wives.

1562
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:23,680
So I remember correctly, Hugh J
Cannon was a son of George

1563
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:29,040
Buchanan, who George Buchanan
helped enter into the principal

1564
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:33,480
right before he died, along with
John M Cannon, who was his

1565
01:37:33,480 --> 01:37:37,320
nephew.
So that's a lie.

1566
01:37:38,000 --> 01:37:44,080
Yeah 'cause you.
Anyways, can we pause there for

1567
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:45,360
a second?
I I could use a break.

1568
01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:48,080
Yeah, absolutely.
All right, I'll.

1569
01:37:48,120 --> 01:37:54,080
I'll be right back, All right.
OK, so getting back into the the

1570
01:37:54,080 --> 01:37:59,640
Inquisition time time period
with Alpha J Higgs and they

1571
01:37:59,640 --> 01:38:02,120
haven't found Judson Tulman yet,
but they're going to assume.

1572
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:10,000
Interesting sidebar August 15th,
19, 19 O 9 John M Whitaker who

1573
01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:13,880
is a Bishop in Granite Stake.
He's not a friend of ours,

1574
01:38:13,880 --> 01:38:17,240
unfortunately, but this is
interesting.

1575
01:38:17,240 --> 01:38:19,680
Historically, he writes in his
diary.

1576
01:38:20,320 --> 01:38:23,800
I have had some serious time
lately with some brethren who

1577
01:38:23,800 --> 01:38:27,320
are determined to privately take
plural wives against the solemn

1578
01:38:27,320 --> 01:38:30,360
pledge that the Church has made.
And I have met with them and

1579
01:38:30,360 --> 01:38:33,640
done all I could to get them to
be true to their to their first

1580
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:35,560
wife.
And under the instructions from

1581
01:38:35,560 --> 01:38:38,680
the President to the Church, I
finally told them if they took

1582
01:38:38,680 --> 01:38:41,240
another wife while their wife
was living, we would have to

1583
01:38:41,240 --> 01:38:42,560
handle them for their
fellowship.

1584
01:38:43,160 --> 01:38:45,800
But even this is not sufficient
in some cases.

1585
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:50,320
The presidency said many times
this must stop during the

1586
01:38:50,320 --> 01:38:54,520
balance of the summer Was
extremely busy in my ward stake

1587
01:38:54,520 --> 01:38:56,720
and social affairs.
I had several talks with the

1588
01:38:56,720 --> 01:39:00,000
state presidency over my
attitude towards some who are in

1589
01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:03,440
polygamy, stating that all who
took wives since the manifesto

1590
01:39:03,440 --> 01:39:07,200
were living in adultery and some
of the leading men in the stake

1591
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:11,000
who had done so protested.
And in the High Council, I

1592
01:39:11,000 --> 01:39:14,120
explained my position and the
president of the stake asked me

1593
01:39:14,120 --> 01:39:18,960
why I took such a stand and he
said he and John M Cannon had

1594
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:21,520
been advised by one of the
general authorities to do so.

1595
01:39:22,360 --> 01:39:24,800
So he's telling his state
President and his and counselor

1596
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:27,520
that you're living in adultery
because it's Frank Y Taylor and

1597
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:32,120
John M Cannon, right?
Anyways, explaining that they

1598
01:39:32,120 --> 01:39:35,680
did so, and that the manner had
been taken up by the Council of

1599
01:39:35,680 --> 01:39:38,600
the 12, and in as much as they
did so immediately after the

1600
01:39:38,600 --> 01:39:41,880
Manifesto, and had made all
arrangements in good faith to do

1601
01:39:41,880 --> 01:39:44,440
so when the Manifesto was
passed, that unless someone made

1602
01:39:44,440 --> 01:39:49,680
complaint against them, so far
as the Council was concerned, no

1603
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:52,280
action would be taken.
We have had many meetings on the

1604
01:39:52,280 --> 01:39:55,760
matter and I was told by
President Joseph F Smith, no

1605
01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:58,960
matter who they were to handle,
all who had taken a wife after

1606
01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:01,440
the manifesto or he would handle
me.

1607
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:05,040
This thing must stop.
And later one of the members of

1608
01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:09,360
the ward, Willard Richards, came
and asked me why I favored my

1609
01:40:09,360 --> 01:40:12,480
brother-in-law, who was a member
of my ward and also state

1610
01:40:12,480 --> 01:40:16,920
president, and not make fish of
one and foul of another.

1611
01:40:17,240 --> 01:40:19,400
And he said.
He knew that Frank White Taylor

1612
01:40:19,400 --> 01:40:22,160
had taken one sense and I said
to him, Are you sure?

1613
01:40:22,600 --> 01:40:25,400
Yes, I am sure.
Then I said, if you will file a

1614
01:40:25,400 --> 01:40:28,000
complaint against President
Frank White Taylor or anyone

1615
01:40:28,000 --> 01:40:30,880
else in my ward, I would at once
try the case.

1616
01:40:32,000 --> 01:40:35,560
I'll do nothing of the kind,
said he then said I Then keep

1617
01:40:35,560 --> 01:40:38,280
your mouth shut and don't go and
try to destroy the character of

1618
01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:40,760
anyone.
If you will not take your part

1619
01:40:40,760 --> 01:40:45,160
in stopping such things, it is
such men as you and others who

1620
01:40:45,160 --> 01:40:48,520
talk and slander others, but
unwilling to help put a stop to

1621
01:40:48,520 --> 01:40:52,240
such things.
And you and all you and all such

1622
01:40:52,240 --> 01:40:55,360
are bringing the church into
disrepute and give license for

1623
01:40:55,360 --> 01:40:59,040
the for the stranger to find
fault and say the church is not

1624
01:40:59,040 --> 01:41:01,440
keeping its oath.
President Smith told me

1625
01:41:01,440 --> 01:41:05,360
personally when I took Nicole
Hood before the presidency in 12

1626
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:08,000
some time ago.
The man is not living and the

1627
01:41:08,000 --> 01:41:10,000
man is not dead.
Who can ever say that?

1628
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:12,840
I have ever approved of a single
plural marriage since the

1629
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:16,840
Manifesto and I believe him so
that's what that's what John

1630
01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:19,400
Whitaker says.
President Smith told him that

1631
01:41:19,400 --> 01:41:22,800
there is not a man living or
dead that told that I told could

1632
01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:24,920
enter into full marriage since
the manifesto.

1633
01:41:25,280 --> 01:41:28,920
And I told him that President
Taylor was good and a faithful

1634
01:41:28,920 --> 01:41:31,400
man and always wanted to do the
right thing.

1635
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:34,960
Then I went to President Taylor
myself and told him a complaint

1636
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:36,520
was about to be filed against
him.

1637
01:41:36,720 --> 01:41:39,880
He said, Well, Bishop Whitaker,
you won't try the case, will

1638
01:41:39,880 --> 01:41:41,280
you?
Yes.

1639
01:41:41,280 --> 01:41:44,360
Anyone filing such a deposition,
I am bound to hear.

1640
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:46,920
Then he said.
Well, Bishop, if such a thing

1641
01:41:46,920 --> 01:41:49,640
happened, I guess I will have to
take my medicine.

1642
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:52,880
But no one ever filed A
complaint, so the matter was

1643
01:41:52,880 --> 01:41:55,200
dropped.
But I shall do as the President

1644
01:41:55,200 --> 01:41:58,640
of the Church asks me.
As long as I am Bishop, I feel

1645
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:01,840
that it is right, and there is
no one so great but the that the

1646
01:42:01,840 --> 01:42:04,080
Lord can raise up another to
carry on the work.

1647
01:42:04,720 --> 01:42:07,320
This is not a one man church,
and every member has equal

1648
01:42:07,320 --> 01:42:10,920
rights before the Lord.
I have had many sleepless nights

1649
01:42:10,920 --> 01:42:15,080
over my determination to do my
full duty in the face of a great

1650
01:42:15,240 --> 01:42:18,000
and of great odds.
But I shall always stand for the

1651
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:21,200
right and will express my honest
opinions whenever and wherever I

1652
01:42:21,200 --> 01:42:24,320
have opportunity.
And it is my duty to do so.

1653
01:42:24,320 --> 01:42:28,000
I cannot do otherwise and
maintain myself respect before

1654
01:42:28,000 --> 01:42:34,640
men and my Father in heaven.
Let me ask, Oh, go ahead.

1655
01:42:35,240 --> 01:42:36,640
Not as interesting.
There you go.

1656
01:42:38,040 --> 01:42:41,360
Any idea who called Whitaker as
Bishop?

1657
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:47,680
No idea, because he seems out of
place, right?

1658
01:42:48,200 --> 01:42:52,000
And he seems.
Unusually, he seems unusually

1659
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:58,120
bold to call out his direct
superior, so to speak, right.

1660
01:42:59,120 --> 01:43:03,640
He seems this.
Look, we all understand Mormon

1661
01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:06,200
hierarchy, right?
Whether you're in or out of the

1662
01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:10,240
mainstream church, we get it
that there are channels and that

1663
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:15,160
there is a proper procedure.
But he seems awfully emboldened,

1664
01:43:15,240 --> 01:43:18,600
right?
He seems like he's very willing

1665
01:43:18,920 --> 01:43:23,000
to go out and challenge his
direct superior within that

1666
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:30,040
hierarchy, which to me tells me
that he was maybe put in there

1667
01:43:30,520 --> 01:43:34,800
in hopes of stemming some of the
plural marriage that's happening

1668
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:38,200
in polygamy, Ville.
It's quite possible, but I don't

1669
01:43:38,200 --> 01:43:39,440
know.
Yeah, I don't know entirely.

1670
01:43:40,200 --> 01:43:41,960
Anyway, that's super interesting
stuff.

1671
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:46,040
September 1st, 19 O 9, Hebrew J
Grant writes in his diary.

1672
01:43:46,880 --> 01:43:50,960
Long discussion.
Higgs case concerned that Tanner

1673
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:53,240
and Kelsch should resign from
the general boards.

1674
01:43:53,800 --> 01:43:57,560
He means from the YNMI.
A the next.

1675
01:43:57,560 --> 01:44:00,880
Day, Grant writes.
Long talk afternoon with BH

1676
01:44:00,880 --> 01:44:02,800
Roberts.
He was glad something was to be

1677
01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:04,480
done in the case of Tanner and
Kelsch.

1678
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:09,800
Two days after that, on the 4th,
Joseph F Smith and Huber J.

1679
01:44:09,800 --> 01:44:13,880
Grant and BH Roberts signed a
letter to Louis A Kelsch saying

1680
01:44:14,000 --> 01:44:17,760
evidences are at hand.
Going to show that A at a

1681
01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:20,520
comparatively recent date of
plural marriage was entered into

1682
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:23,360
and from a report made to us by
a committee of the Quorum of the

1683
01:44:23,360 --> 01:44:26,600
12 as a result of their
investigations, you are

1684
01:44:26,600 --> 01:44:29,600
implicated as having encouraged
the belief that plural marriages

1685
01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:33,000
may still be consummated,
notwithstanding the declarations

1686
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:35,320
of the presiding authorities of
the Church to the contrary.

1687
01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:38,040
For this reason we cannot
sustain you as a member of the

1688
01:44:38,040 --> 01:44:41,000
General Board of the Young Men's
Mutual Improvement Association,

1689
01:44:41,320 --> 01:44:44,640
and you are there but for hereby
released as a member of that

1690
01:44:44,640 --> 01:44:48,280
Board.
Wow, so, so brother, it's it's

1691
01:44:48,400 --> 01:44:51,880
it's happening now, right?
The the the witch hunt is on.

1692
01:44:52,000 --> 01:44:56,080
Yeah, Kelshen and Tanner I
believe get dropped from their

1693
01:44:56,080 --> 01:44:58,680
position there, although I don't
believe they ever get

1694
01:44:58,680 --> 01:45:02,960
excommunicated.
On October 6th, 1909, Heber J.

1695
01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:05,920
Grant writes in his diary after
a conference at President

1696
01:45:05,920 --> 01:45:09,760
Lyman's with some of the Apostle
Apostles and Bishops building

1697
01:45:10,040 --> 01:45:13,800
with President Welling of Bear
River Stake was sorry to learn

1698
01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:16,560
that he believed that Brother
Israel Barlow, the third of

1699
01:45:16,560 --> 01:45:19,000
Bountiful Ward, had married and
for a wife.

1700
01:45:19,080 --> 01:45:21,880
We will no doubt have one more
man to cut off the church.

1701
01:45:22,720 --> 01:45:25,440
And Heber doesn't seem to have
any time for it now.

1702
01:45:25,440 --> 01:45:27,000
He's.
He's over, Yeah.

1703
01:45:27,440 --> 01:45:30,840
The next day, he writes, met at
President Lyman's some of the

1704
01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:33,680
apostles.
Brother Israel Barlow, the third

1705
01:45:34,080 --> 01:45:37,760
there, refused to give to answer
any questions regarding his

1706
01:45:37,760 --> 01:45:40,440
reported marriage.
All of our quorum who were there

1707
01:45:40,440 --> 01:45:44,240
believe him guilty.
Has there been any change in the

1708
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:47,760
constitution of the 12?
Has anyone else been dropped?

1709
01:45:47,760 --> 01:45:51,240
Has anyone died?
Have they added more and pull up

1710
01:45:51,240 --> 01:45:52,880
polygamists?
Yeah, let me.

1711
01:45:53,480 --> 01:45:58,080
Let me pull up who is in at this
point in 19 O 9.

1712
01:45:58,240 --> 01:46:02,600
Then I'll give you a rundown.
As of August of nineteen O 9,

1713
01:46:02,600 --> 01:46:07,320
the quorum of the 12 reads the
Francis Lyman, John Henry Smith,

1714
01:46:07,320 --> 01:46:09,400
Heber J.
Grant, Rodger Clawson, Reed

1715
01:46:09,400 --> 01:46:13,800
Smith, Hiram Max Smith, George
Albert Smith, Charles Penrose,

1716
01:46:13,800 --> 01:46:18,160
George F Richards, Orson, F
Whitney, David O McKay, and

1717
01:46:18,160 --> 01:46:27,400
Anthony W Ivins.
So against it you have Lyman,

1718
01:46:27,960 --> 01:46:34,600
Grant Smoot, George A Smith,
Penrose and George F Richards

1719
01:46:35,240 --> 01:46:39,480
and Ivins.
That's a majority of seven on

1720
01:46:39,480 --> 01:46:45,320
the fence kind of sort of would
be John Henry Smith, possibly

1721
01:46:45,320 --> 01:46:49,240
hire a Max Smith, although I
don't fully know, and David O

1722
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:56,320
McKay, so, so three or four and
then fro, yeah, three and a pro

1723
01:46:56,320 --> 01:46:58,720
would be Roger Clausen and Orson
F Whitney.

1724
01:46:59,280 --> 01:47:00,720
So they're really outnumbered
now.

1725
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:04,880
Yeah.
On October 6th, 19 O 9, George F

1726
01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:08,640
Richards writes in his journal.
I attended the four and

1727
01:47:08,640 --> 01:47:12,040
afternoon meeting of conference
and at 4:00 PM met with the 12

1728
01:47:12,040 --> 01:47:16,120
at President Francis M Lyman's
office and heard what President

1729
01:47:16,120 --> 01:47:19,240
Milton H Welling had to tell
about his sister's relation with

1730
01:47:19,240 --> 01:47:22,880
Brother Israel Barlow.
A suspicious case indicating a

1731
01:47:22,880 --> 01:47:27,160
marriage with a married man
adjourned until until 10:00 AM

1732
01:47:27,160 --> 01:47:29,680
tomorrow when Brother Barlow
will meet with us.

1733
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:34,040
I got word to him through
brother Benjamin Goddard, Thomas

1734
01:47:34,040 --> 01:47:36,160
Clawson writes in his journal,
Essay and Day.

1735
01:47:38,440 --> 01:47:41,640
The names of Alpha J Higgs,
Henry S Tanner and Louis A

1736
01:47:41,640 --> 01:47:46,080
Kelsch were not sustained on the
General Board of the YMMIA

1737
01:47:46,480 --> 01:47:49,240
because of the scandal arising
out of the Higgs affair.

1738
01:47:49,760 --> 01:47:52,520
President Joseph F Smith then
made the closing remarks, the

1739
01:47:52,520 --> 01:47:56,080
conference in which he gave a
most scathing rebuke to Brother

1740
01:47:56,800 --> 01:48:00,000
BH Roberts and said that the
Lord that if the Lord had

1741
01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:02,760
anything to say to the church,
he would send it through the

1742
01:48:02,760 --> 01:48:06,160
proper channel.
So I guess BH Roberts said

1743
01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:10,160
something at that conference
that really was incendiary.

1744
01:48:10,160 --> 01:48:11,880
I don't know what it was, but
that's interesting.

1745
01:48:12,560 --> 01:48:16,360
But in any case, Alpha J Higgs,
Henry Tanner, and Louis Kelch

1746
01:48:16,360 --> 01:48:20,840
get dropped from their positions
in The Lion and not YNNIA

1747
01:48:23,200 --> 01:48:28,800
officially.
The next day after that Thomas A

1748
01:48:28,800 --> 01:48:32,280
Clawson, which is probably a
near relative of Rodger Clawson,

1749
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:36,480
although I don't know, writes in
his journal, went to circle

1750
01:48:36,480 --> 01:48:43,920
meeting at President Francis M
Lyman's spoke spoke at Francis M

1751
01:48:43,920 --> 01:48:47,440
Lyman spoke upon the subject of
loyalty to him and the circle,

1752
01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:51,040
remarking that four members of
the circle had gotten into

1753
01:48:51,040 --> 01:48:54,000
difficulties through their not
following the counsel of the

1754
01:48:54,000 --> 01:48:57,680
leaders of the Church.
They were Joseph W Musser,

1755
01:48:58,160 --> 01:49:03,480
Joseph M Tanner, Louis A Kelsch,
and Birdly.

1756
01:49:03,720 --> 01:49:07,360
Whoever that is, he hopes that
in the future that all the

1757
01:49:07,360 --> 01:49:10,960
brethren of the circle would
live as to retain the his

1758
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:14,800
fullest confidence and would do
nothing to bring themselves into

1759
01:49:14,800 --> 01:49:17,560
trouble, the Church into
disrepute.

1760
01:49:18,360 --> 01:49:21,280
So maybe I'm skipping over where
I want to talk about muster

1761
01:49:21,280 --> 01:49:22,880
more.
Maybe.

1762
01:49:22,880 --> 01:49:24,080
Or maybe it's coming up.
I don't know.

1763
01:49:24,080 --> 01:49:26,880
We'll just get to it now.
But yeah, so muster Tanner

1764
01:49:26,960 --> 01:49:30,160
Joseph M Tanner and Louis
Akelsch were all part of Francis

1765
01:49:30,160 --> 01:49:32,840
Lyman's private True order of
Prayer Corps.

1766
01:49:34,080 --> 01:49:36,720
Those three And another guy with
the last name of Early

1767
01:49:36,840 --> 01:49:40,120
apparently got into plural
marriages around this time.

1768
01:49:40,360 --> 01:49:42,440
Joe's.
This is the time that Joseph

1769
01:49:42,440 --> 01:49:44,440
Muster was brought into the
court with the 12.

1770
01:49:44,560 --> 01:49:48,760
It was during the Higgs case
stuff and if you recall they

1771
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:52,200
asked him, do you know brother
Alpha J Higgs And he said that

1772
01:49:52,200 --> 01:49:55,360
they had been personal friends
for years which that's like a no

1773
01:49:55,360 --> 01:49:58,640
brainer to me.
If they if Joseph muster, well I

1774
01:49:58,640 --> 01:50:01,160
guess Higgs is not a member.
Higgs is not a member of this

1775
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:03,120
quorum.
Muster is a member of la

1776
01:50:03,360 --> 01:50:05,720
Diamond's quorum.
Higgs is a member of Grant's

1777
01:50:05,720 --> 01:50:08,120
forum true order of prayer
circle forum.

1778
01:50:08,360 --> 01:50:10,760
But yeah so Higgs and Muster
have been friends for years.

1779
01:50:10,800 --> 01:50:14,600
That's the way he answers them.
They ask him, well, have you

1780
01:50:14,600 --> 01:50:16,800
talked about this topic?
He says basically.

1781
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:21,280
Well, I can't say they asked
Muster to put a, you know, help

1782
01:50:21,280 --> 01:50:24,120
us in putting it down.
Muster says I can't do that.

1783
01:50:25,480 --> 01:50:28,200
Anyways, we discussed that at
length before, but what?

1784
01:50:28,200 --> 01:50:32,240
What's your question?
It's more of an observation.

1785
01:50:32,280 --> 01:50:37,040
For some reason, I bristle at
the way Wyman puts it, where he

1786
01:50:37,040 --> 01:50:39,760
says, oh, you have not been
loyal to me.

1787
01:50:40,440 --> 01:50:44,400
And I'm like, is this the
Godfather, right?

1788
01:50:44,960 --> 01:50:48,000
Is this like you know?
You come to me on my wedding

1789
01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:50,560
day.
And you know what is this

1790
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:51,480
exactly?
What do you mean?

1791
01:50:51,480 --> 01:50:53,680
Loyal to you?
Right?

1792
01:50:54,240 --> 01:50:58,200
That's an interesting statement.
I I'm more concerned with

1793
01:50:58,200 --> 01:51:01,800
someone being loyal to God
rather than loyal to me.

1794
01:51:02,920 --> 01:51:04,280
Well.
I would say that those four

1795
01:51:04,280 --> 01:51:06,200
individuals were being pretty
loyal to the Lord.

1796
01:51:06,640 --> 01:51:09,760
Yep, three of them are very
prominent in the story.

1797
01:51:09,760 --> 01:51:14,600
I don't know who Urdly is, but
but have three names like that

1798
01:51:14,960 --> 01:51:20,160
all engaged in this underground
priesthood work and two of which

1799
01:51:20,160 --> 01:51:23,680
have serious relations to later
fundamentalism.

1800
01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:26,760
Is this super interesting that
that's that happened in that

1801
01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:28,400
scenario?
Is this super fascinating?

1802
01:51:29,080 --> 01:51:33,120
Yep.
Later on, when Joseph Muster is

1803
01:51:33,120 --> 01:51:38,360
on the priesthood council, he
sends Joseph Lyman, Jessup and

1804
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:40,880
Arnold Boss, who was kind of the
resident historian of the

1805
01:51:40,880 --> 01:51:46,000
priesthood group at that point
up to Canada in the 1930s, to go

1806
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:47,920
find Alpha J Higgs.
Because he had moved up to

1807
01:51:47,920 --> 01:51:50,520
Canada to bring him into the
priesthood work, just so you

1808
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:55,200
know.
OK, so so Higgs is laying low,

1809
01:51:55,200 --> 01:51:58,880
is what he's doing.
Yeah, yeah, he's.

1810
01:51:58,920 --> 01:52:03,560
Yeah, he well, he says.
Or maybe it was Boss or Muster,

1811
01:52:03,560 --> 01:52:05,320
you know?
So Muster sends them off on that

1812
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:10,000
mission to go find Alpha J Higgs
and Alpha J Higgs told Arnold,

1813
01:52:10,000 --> 01:52:14,720
Boss and Lyman Jessup that he
was instructed to go hide in

1814
01:52:14,720 --> 01:52:19,760
Canada.
OK Yeah, by by probably Joseph F

1815
01:52:19,760 --> 01:52:21,200
Smith.
Gotcha.

1816
01:52:22,160 --> 01:52:24,160
Gotcha.
He's coming on Get out of town.

1817
01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:27,600
Yep.
And so yeah, we see this is

1818
01:52:27,600 --> 01:52:30,600
coming down both sides.
Hebrew J Grant writes on his

1819
01:52:30,600 --> 01:52:36,720
journal on October 17th, 19 O 9
that I that you know they they

1820
01:52:36,720 --> 01:52:40,440
were meeting on the Higgs case
again and on Tanner and Kelsh.

1821
01:52:41,400 --> 01:52:44,960
It's around this time that
Nathan Clark was trying to

1822
01:52:44,960 --> 01:52:50,640
obtain permission from Joseph F
Smith and John W Taylor to marry

1823
01:52:50,720 --> 01:52:54,920
Alta Taylor, John WS daughter he
got permission from.

1824
01:52:55,560 --> 01:52:58,720
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Renegade Podcast?

1825
01:52:59,080 --> 01:53:02,720
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1826
01:53:02,720 --> 01:53:06,520
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1827
01:53:06,520 --> 01:53:09,000
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1828
01:53:09,560 --> 01:53:13,560
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1829
01:53:13,560 --> 01:53:16,760
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1830
01:53:16,800 --> 01:53:21,680
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1831
01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:25,160
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1832
01:53:25,680 --> 01:53:28,840
Click the link in this episode's
show notes today.

1833
01:53:29,360 --> 01:53:32,360
John WI don't know if he was
able to obtain permission from

1834
01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:36,200
Alta to court or, but it looks
like Joseph F Smith said that

1835
01:53:36,200 --> 01:53:38,320
that would not be wise at this
point in time.

1836
01:53:38,640 --> 01:53:41,200
It's kind of understandable that
we answered that question.

1837
01:53:41,200 --> 01:53:44,160
Now that you asked before maybe
why he couldn't get permission

1838
01:53:44,200 --> 01:53:46,400
because that all this is going
on right now.

1839
01:53:47,200 --> 01:53:50,320
I mean literally, you have
Biggs's marriage was probably

1840
01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:55,050
helped arranged by Taylor
because he married his brother

1841
01:53:55,053 --> 01:54:02,520
in law's daughter going on
December 8th, 19 O 9, George F

1842
01:54:02,520 --> 01:54:06,400
Gibbs writes a letter to Lauren
Merrill, who is probably a son

1843
01:54:06,400 --> 01:54:08,880
of Mariner Merrill.
Say he writes.

1844
01:54:08,880 --> 01:54:12,040
Word has come to this office
from quite a reliable source to

1845
01:54:12,040 --> 01:54:15,160
the effect that your counselor,
Brother Borkman, has the idea

1846
01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:19,160
that plural marriages are still
being solemnized by and with the

1847
01:54:19,160 --> 01:54:22,120
sanction of authorities of the
Church, and that in this

1848
01:54:22,120 --> 01:54:24,480
understanding he is paying his
addresses to a young.

1849
01:54:24,480 --> 01:54:26,320
Woman.
With a view to marriage,

1850
01:54:27,320 --> 01:54:30,160
provided he can get a competent
person to perform the marriage

1851
01:54:30,160 --> 01:54:33,080
ceremony.
It is also being told that you

1852
01:54:33,080 --> 01:54:36,920
were encouraging Brother Borkman
and the idea you are reported to

1853
01:54:36,920 --> 01:54:40,600
have said other things as well.
Along this line going to convey

1854
01:54:40,600 --> 01:54:43,880
the idea that you knew
personally of such things and

1855
01:54:43,880 --> 01:54:47,720
could enumerate a very large
number of such marriages since

1856
01:54:47,720 --> 01:54:51,720
the since President Wilford
Woodruff's Manifesto, I am

1857
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:54,960
instructed to say to you that no
plural marriage can be entered

1858
01:54:54,960 --> 01:55:00,240
into by and with the sanction of
Church authority, and that any

1859
01:55:00,240 --> 01:55:03,600
person found doing so will be
dealt with on his fellowship in

1860
01:55:03,600 --> 01:55:05,720
the Church.
This applies to the party

1861
01:55:05,720 --> 01:55:08,880
solemnizing the plural marriage,
and you were requested by the

1862
01:55:08,880 --> 01:55:12,280
Presidency to so inform Brother
Borkman and his wife as well.

1863
01:55:13,640 --> 01:55:17,840
So that's another tie in to
Brother Merrill has a wide

1864
01:55:17,840 --> 01:55:19,400
knowledge.
Right.

1865
01:55:20,520 --> 01:55:22,440
Pertaining to those events and
affairs.

1866
01:55:25,160 --> 01:55:29,080
So now getting into 1910
January, they start

1867
01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:31,920
investigating Israel Barlow, the
Third's case.

1868
01:55:35,520 --> 01:55:37,520
Let's see if I need to say read
any of this.

1869
01:55:39,440 --> 01:55:40,920
So this is interesting.
I can't.

1870
01:55:40,920 --> 01:55:43,440
I couldn't find.
I swear I read something along

1871
01:55:43,440 --> 01:55:46,160
these lines, but I I was looking
for it before we got on.

1872
01:55:46,680 --> 01:55:51,720
So yeah, with with Israel Barlow
the Third getting into this

1873
01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:58,080
these his inquisitions, his
stake president was Joseph Hiram

1874
01:55:58,080 --> 01:56:00,120
Grant who was a brother to
Hebrew J Grant.

1875
01:56:02,000 --> 01:56:07,640
I swear there is a statement for
me to Judson Tolman or from

1876
01:56:07,640 --> 01:56:12,640
Israel Barlow the 3rd, that
Joseph Hiram Grant's brother,

1877
01:56:12,640 --> 01:56:16,000
the Hebrew J grant, encouraged
that marriage.

1878
01:56:19,200 --> 01:56:21,320
Thanksgiving dinner just got
interesting.

1879
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:25,200
Right.
And they have, because he's a

1880
01:56:25,200 --> 01:56:27,440
stake president.
They have Joseph Hiram Grant

1881
01:56:27,440 --> 01:56:31,560
sitting, sitting in on this
meeting, and things could be

1882
01:56:32,120 --> 01:56:35,040
probably very uncomfortable for
him anyway.

1883
01:56:35,040 --> 01:56:38,960
So they're investigating Israel.
Barlow declines to answer any of

1884
01:56:38,960 --> 01:56:43,360
the questions, and they decide
to disfellowship him.

1885
01:56:44,200 --> 01:56:48,120
And if he continues to refuse to
answer, then in 30 days they

1886
01:56:48,120 --> 01:56:51,960
will cause him to reappear in a
meeting and show why.

1887
01:56:52,000 --> 01:56:54,240
You know, basically they're
going to say he should show us

1888
01:56:54,240 --> 01:56:57,000
why we shouldn't just
excommunicate him from the

1889
01:56:57,000 --> 01:57:01,760
church in 30 days, Anthony W
Ivins writes.

1890
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:07,800
Same thing.
OK, let's.

1891
01:57:08,040 --> 01:57:10,560
Can you keep, can you keep your
camera down a little bit there,

1892
01:57:10,560 --> 01:57:13,160
Mike?
Oh, sorry, No, you're good.

1893
01:57:15,520 --> 01:57:19,240
But this is interesting.
OK, February 27th, as they're

1894
01:57:19,240 --> 01:57:23,640
going through the Israel Barlow
case, George F Richards had a

1895
01:57:23,640 --> 01:57:26,440
dream.
I don't know the interpretation,

1896
01:57:26,440 --> 01:57:30,120
but it's very interesting.
Last night I dreamed a dream in

1897
01:57:30,120 --> 01:57:34,440
which I saw the 12 who had been
digging for some time had found

1898
01:57:34,440 --> 01:57:37,200
the grave which contains the
body for which they have been

1899
01:57:37,200 --> 01:57:39,920
looking.
The Barlow case and the subject

1900
01:57:39,920 --> 01:57:43,400
of secret plural marriages were
associated in my dream with the

1901
01:57:43,400 --> 01:57:48,560
case, IE the dream, if it had
any significance, refers to that

1902
01:57:48,560 --> 01:57:51,040
matter.
I dreamed that I had been absent

1903
01:57:51,040 --> 01:57:54,960
for some time, and on my return
I saw a long and deep trench,

1904
01:57:55,600 --> 01:57:57,840
dug as indicated by the dirt
throwing up.

1905
01:57:58,520 --> 01:58:01,240
I had seen that we were in
counsel, and that I had been

1906
01:58:01,240 --> 01:58:05,120
absent from and from a drawer.
I extracted some papers which

1907
01:58:05,120 --> 01:58:09,120
throw some light upon the case
under consideration, and it was

1908
01:58:09,120 --> 01:58:13,800
apparent that one of our number,
Orson F Whitney, had tried to

1909
01:58:13,800 --> 01:58:16,000
keep this information in
obscurity.

1910
01:58:16,400 --> 01:58:20,280
On the diggings I saw one who
was persistent and humming out

1911
01:58:20,280 --> 01:58:23,760
loud as he worked.
Notwithstanding we were to work

1912
01:58:23,760 --> 01:58:27,240
in the quiet, he was
nevertheless as much interested

1913
01:58:27,240 --> 01:58:30,640
in our search as any others.
President Francis and Lyman was

1914
01:58:30,640 --> 01:58:34,240
working hard when I came up and
on the lead, and I put to work

1915
01:58:34,240 --> 01:58:37,960
with him, and presidently
working backwards, I discovered

1916
01:58:37,960 --> 01:58:40,720
a loose sod as if it had
formerly been removed.

1917
01:58:41,080 --> 01:58:44,080
Investigating further, I found
that a grave had been dug and

1918
01:58:44,080 --> 01:58:48,680
covered over with sods, but that
it had been sunken distinctly.

1919
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:55,040
President Lyman saw it and
seemed it seemed that, but that

1920
01:58:55,040 --> 01:58:59,920
was the thing which we had been
looking for, IE in that grave

1921
01:58:59,920 --> 01:59:01,720
was the body we've been looking
for.

1922
01:59:02,120 --> 01:59:05,160
I then asked President Lyman if
I should cover up the diggings,

1923
01:59:05,320 --> 01:59:08,760
to which he referred and
answered No, I want to show.

1924
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:12,360
It to them.
I thought I saw that there were

1925
01:59:12,360 --> 01:59:15,760
a good number of men otherwise
who had secretly hid this body

1926
01:59:15,760 --> 01:59:19,680
from us, and I could see their
anxiety over the matter and how

1927
01:59:19,680 --> 01:59:23,600
disconcerted they felt.
While we were digging, I saw a

1928
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:27,320
shovel, a spade and a grubbing
hoe which had been used in the

1929
01:59:27,320 --> 01:59:30,800
diggings and which it seemed I
had used in the commencement of

1930
01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:33,920
the work.
So that's really fascinating.

1931
01:59:33,920 --> 01:59:40,880
What are your thoughts on that?
Boy, I think, I think just just

1932
01:59:40,880 --> 01:59:46,160
my opinion.
I think that that what they're

1933
01:59:46,160 --> 01:59:50,000
they're looking for is plural
marriages, right?

1934
01:59:50,840 --> 01:59:56,600
And and as soon as they find it,
you know, there's some men who

1935
01:59:56,600 --> 02:00:02,080
are bothered by the fact that it
was found, which probably lends

1936
02:00:02,080 --> 02:00:07,640
to this idea that again, they're
not 100% united on this, right.

1937
02:00:07,960 --> 02:00:10,800
I'm guessing those two men that
you mentioned that were the only

1938
02:00:10,800 --> 02:00:15,200
two left holding the line, so to
speak, are those guys.

1939
02:00:15,960 --> 02:00:18,920
Well, that was that fits really
well with what we went over with

1940
02:00:18,920 --> 02:00:21,560
the membership of the Quorum at
this point because the people he

1941
02:00:21,560 --> 02:00:24,040
mentioned are, although the one,
the one that they mentions it's

1942
02:00:24,040 --> 02:00:28,920
Orson F Whitney who is one that
we know is sympathetic and the

1943
02:00:28,920 --> 02:00:31,880
other one is Roger Clawson that
we isn't mentioned in the

1944
02:00:31,880 --> 02:00:35,640
stream, but we know that he
would also.

1945
02:00:35,640 --> 02:00:38,040
Probably.
Be very wary as well.

1946
02:00:40,680 --> 02:00:43,760
And I'm just thinking, looking,
you know, digging below the

1947
02:00:43,760 --> 02:00:46,200
surface, people are in the
underground.

1948
02:00:47,480 --> 02:00:49,680
I think it carries a lot of
symbology there.

1949
02:00:50,200 --> 02:00:54,200
It's really interesting.
It's why the Lord would show him

1950
02:00:54,200 --> 02:00:57,160
that, I don't know.
Some would probably think that

1951
02:00:57,160 --> 02:01:00,520
as a vindication that the Lord
was against the priest to work.

1952
02:01:02,160 --> 02:01:05,200
I would disagree, obviously, but
they could be looked at that

1953
02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:06,760
way.
But interesting nonetheless,

1954
02:01:06,760 --> 02:01:09,720
considering how accurate.
It I think there's something

1955
02:01:09,720 --> 02:01:13,240
else telling in that dream.
And the one who seems most

1956
02:01:13,240 --> 02:01:20,800
excited about finding the body,
so to speak is, is Lyman, which

1957
02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:25,440
tells me that that maybe he was
the mastermind of this from the

1958
02:01:25,440 --> 02:01:29,440
get go.
Yeah, a lot of.

1959
02:01:30,440 --> 02:01:32,520
I think it would.
It would make a lot of sense if

1960
02:01:32,520 --> 02:01:35,280
that were the case.
I'll say that much.

1961
02:01:35,280 --> 02:01:37,520
I couldn't prove that, but it
would make a lot of sense.

1962
02:01:39,440 --> 02:01:42,280
Nor have I ever attempted to
research that There was a plot.

1963
02:01:43,480 --> 02:01:45,560
Of any.
In any case, but that.

1964
02:01:45,560 --> 02:01:48,320
Is I could, I could be up in the
night on this, right?

1965
02:01:48,320 --> 02:01:50,600
I I I really could be up in the
night.

1966
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:56,160
Well, it just seems too
orchestrated for me.

1967
02:01:56,720 --> 02:02:00,240
It's definitely orchestrated at
a certain level, and I'll give

1968
02:02:00,240 --> 02:02:04,200
him the benefit of saying the
the the pathway to hell is paved

1969
02:02:04,200 --> 02:02:06,280
with good intentions.
And I'm sure he had good

1970
02:02:06,280 --> 02:02:09,560
intentions and that he wasn't
completely evil in doing this

1971
02:02:09,560 --> 02:02:11,600
'cause he's trying to do
something he believes in, which

1972
02:02:11,600 --> 02:02:13,720
is to save the church and
disrepute.

1973
02:02:16,080 --> 02:02:19,160
But I definitely think he's gone
beyond the spirit of the Lord at

1974
02:02:19,160 --> 02:02:22,960
this point as well.
You know, I think this is a good

1975
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:28,000
spot to to maybe mention saving
at what extent?

1976
02:02:28,120 --> 02:02:33,000
To what extent, right.
Because if he gets his way, the

1977
02:02:33,000 --> 02:02:37,560
the church as those people have
known it to, that time is over,

1978
02:02:37,720 --> 02:02:39,880
right?
That's like saying I'm going to

1979
02:02:39,880 --> 02:02:44,960
attempt this Mustang by throwing
in a Pinto engine, right?

1980
02:02:44,960 --> 02:02:48,040
Yeah, you may have saved the
outward appearance, but it's not

1981
02:02:48,040 --> 02:02:51,640
the same car.
You're absolutely right about

1982
02:02:51,800 --> 02:02:55,960
that going forward.
This is extremely interesting

1983
02:02:55,960 --> 02:03:00,320
timing wise.
So September 28th on the heels

1984
02:03:00,320 --> 02:03:02,960
of this, let's see what's when
was this dream, this dream.

1985
02:03:03,440 --> 02:03:06,360
So a year later, almost so
February that that dream was

1986
02:03:06,360 --> 02:03:11,840
February 27th.
On September 28th they

1987
02:03:11,840 --> 02:03:15,600
officially excommunicate Israel
Barlow, the third from the

1988
02:03:15,600 --> 02:03:21,720
church, by October 3rd.
Just a few days after that,

1989
02:03:22,080 --> 02:03:25,840
Johnson Tolman is excommunicated
from the church.

1990
02:03:27,320 --> 02:03:28,360
Interesting.
So boom.

1991
02:03:29,200 --> 02:03:32,200
According to D Michael Flynnn in
October, which is that again

1992
02:03:32,200 --> 02:03:38,520
that same month that that Tolman
is excommunicated in October of

1993
02:03:38,520 --> 02:03:41,480
1910.
John W Taylor.

1994
02:03:43,920 --> 02:03:45,080
He's I'll just read what he
says.

1995
02:03:45,360 --> 02:03:48,800
John W Taylor was circulating
that 1886 revelation which the

1996
02:03:48,800 --> 02:03:53,240
apostles saw as kind of sedition
as a kind of effort to undermine

1997
02:03:53,240 --> 02:03:56,960
the church.
And then they heard in October

1998
02:03:56,960 --> 02:04:00,480
of 1910, when the First
Presidency announced a letter to

1999
02:04:00,480 --> 02:04:03,560
all state presidents, for state
presidents to take action

2000
02:04:03,880 --> 02:04:06,160
against anyone entering into
plural marriages.

2001
02:04:06,160 --> 02:04:10,600
After nineteen O 4, John Taylor
said, quote, this church is

2002
02:04:10,600 --> 02:04:15,120
going to divide into and there
will be a monogamous church and

2003
02:04:15,120 --> 02:04:16,800
there will be a polygamist
underground.

2004
02:04:19,200 --> 02:04:22,000
End Quote, I guess.
And when that was reported back

2005
02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:25,120
to the form of the 12, they
regarded John W Taylor as not

2006
02:04:25,120 --> 02:04:29,040
simply a rebel, but as a
potential or actual leader of a

2007
02:04:29,040 --> 02:04:32,520
movement that the apostles could
only see as an apostate group.

2008
02:04:33,240 --> 02:04:36,240
So it was basically a foregone
conclusion that he would be

2009
02:04:36,240 --> 02:04:39,080
excommunicated when he came
before the Quorum of the 12.

2010
02:04:39,720 --> 02:04:44,240
Wow.
And so, So on the heels of

2011
02:04:44,280 --> 02:04:48,320
Israel Barlow the third being X
and Patriarch Tolman being X,

2012
02:04:50,760 --> 02:04:53,960
the First Presidency is
compelled, I would say, to issue

2013
02:04:53,960 --> 02:04:57,640
a statement to the state
presidents to fellow to to

2014
02:04:58,080 --> 02:05:00,680
exercise judgment when cases
come up to them.

2015
02:05:01,280 --> 02:05:04,480
And John W Taylor makes that
prophecy that there will be a

2016
02:05:04,480 --> 02:05:08,040
polygamous faction in the Church
from this point forward and that

2017
02:05:08,040 --> 02:05:12,840
the Church will be divided into
Now that is again just

2018
02:05:12,840 --> 02:05:15,400
fascinating and fits with the
narrative that we're uncovering.

2019
02:05:17,320 --> 02:05:22,960
Any any sort of idea what's
happening with Joseph F Smith?

2020
02:05:23,520 --> 02:05:27,040
Do we have any journal entries
that show any sort of, you know,

2021
02:05:27,040 --> 02:05:30,040
lamentations about, you know,
we've lost it?

2022
02:05:31,240 --> 02:05:35,000
Anything that that can really
tip his hand about where he's

2023
02:05:35,000 --> 02:05:38,400
standing at this point?
I've never seen any journal

2024
02:05:38,400 --> 02:05:40,320
entries from him on anything
like that.

2025
02:05:40,880 --> 02:05:43,320
If there if they exist, they're
probably not definitely not

2026
02:05:43,320 --> 02:05:47,880
available.
I will state that out of the 18

2027
02:05:47,880 --> 02:05:52,640
marriages that Tolman performed
between February of nineteen O 6

2028
02:05:53,560 --> 02:06:00,120
and when he's excommunicated in
1910, it includes Joseph Muster.

2029
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:04,720
Joseph Muster is not
excommunicated for the marriages

2030
02:06:04,720 --> 02:06:07,000
performed by Tolman.
Very interesting, right?

2031
02:06:07,440 --> 02:06:11,360
Right.
James A Eldridge was also

2032
02:06:11,360 --> 02:06:14,840
protected by Joseph F Smith and
was not excommunicated.

2033
02:06:15,680 --> 02:06:19,960
Neither was Dan Muir, who was
the Bishop that would help

2034
02:06:20,000 --> 02:06:23,000
Judson Tolman take two wives.
He was not excommunicated from

2035
02:06:23,000 --> 02:06:27,080
the Church, and neither was
Henry S Tanner excommunicated

2036
02:06:27,080 --> 02:06:30,800
from the Church, despite the
fact that when Pullman is

2037
02:06:30,800 --> 02:06:34,200
brought into account for all
that, and after he admits all

2038
02:06:34,200 --> 02:06:37,680
this, all that information is
before the Quorum of the 12.

2039
02:06:38,080 --> 02:06:40,880
Do you think that the Quorum of
the 12 is thinking at this point

2040
02:06:41,240 --> 02:06:44,160
we kind of have bigger fish to
fry, right?

2041
02:06:44,160 --> 02:06:48,760
Like if kind of like that?
I hate to use this analogy, but

2042
02:06:48,760 --> 02:06:52,440
I don't know how else to use it.
There was a point during the

2043
02:06:52,440 --> 02:06:56,160
drug war in America where it was
like go after the cartels,

2044
02:06:56,320 --> 02:06:58,920
right?
Get get rid of the supplier.

2045
02:06:58,920 --> 02:07:04,720
Are they looking at maybe John W
Taylor and Matthias Callie as

2046
02:07:04,720 --> 02:07:07,600
kind of being being like the
suppliers to this?

2047
02:07:07,600 --> 02:07:11,120
And thoughts are if we can get
rid of the the figureheads, the

2048
02:07:11,120 --> 02:07:14,760
rest will fall in line.
There's definitely a.

2049
02:07:14,760 --> 02:07:17,720
Little bit of that.
At this point, it's looking like

2050
02:07:18,280 --> 02:07:21,280
that the 12 think that Callie is
more responsible than Taylor.

2051
02:07:21,720 --> 02:07:25,200
OK.
I don't know if that's true.

2052
02:07:25,280 --> 02:07:27,880
I think he's more of the boots
on the ground and Taylor's more

2053
02:07:29,200 --> 02:07:32,080
directing from behind at this
point.

2054
02:07:32,280 --> 02:07:36,880
I don't know how completely in
union they are either, but we.

2055
02:07:37,000 --> 02:07:40,920
But like I said, I I I very much
think that any of Nathan Clark's

2056
02:07:40,920 --> 02:07:44,120
suggestions to Judson Tolman was
actually really Taylor's.

2057
02:07:45,920 --> 02:07:53,000
And we see that after Judson
Tolman is excommunicated, he

2058
02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:55,320
being patriarch to the church.
I don't know if there was anyone

2059
02:07:55,320 --> 02:07:59,480
in the interim placed in that
position, but in 1913 John W

2060
02:07:59,480 --> 02:08:03,640
Wooley is placed in the position
of patriarch to Davis state that

2061
02:08:03,640 --> 02:08:06,480
Jensen Tolman was occupying.
OK.

2062
02:08:06,960 --> 02:08:08,920
Interesting that they replaced.
Him with a wooley.

2063
02:08:09,720 --> 02:08:15,400
Well, yeah, with also
connections to John W But yeah,

2064
02:08:15,480 --> 02:08:17,600
as you were saying that the
bigger fish to fry, we're

2065
02:08:17,600 --> 02:08:21,160
getting into that point in time
where we're in the end of 1910

2066
02:08:22,120 --> 02:08:27,680
and the summons for Taylor and
Callaway to appear on trial were

2067
02:08:27,680 --> 02:08:30,160
in February of 1911.
OK.

2068
02:08:30,800 --> 02:08:32,480
Do I need a pause?
I need a pause.

2069
02:08:32,480 --> 02:08:36,000
No problem.
OK, where was I?

2070
02:08:37,760 --> 02:08:42,520
So Quinn writes the Before his
membership trial, John W Taylor

2071
02:08:42,520 --> 02:08:46,320
wrote a letter to Joseph F Smith
wherein he referred to him as,

2072
02:08:46,560 --> 02:08:48,640
quote, prophet, president, and
King.

2073
02:08:48,880 --> 02:08:52,280
In the same letter, he asks
Joseph F Smith to convene the

2074
02:08:52,280 --> 02:08:56,640
Council of 50 to protect John W
Taylor from discipline by the

2075
02:08:56,640 --> 02:09:01,640
Quorum of the 12.
President Smith responds, quote,

2076
02:09:01,680 --> 02:09:04,480
not granted.
I think the demand most absurd.

2077
02:09:05,200 --> 02:09:08,720
Although the request was denied,
it strongly suggests that

2078
02:09:08,720 --> 02:09:11,640
Apostle Taylor believed that
there was a reasonable

2079
02:09:11,640 --> 02:09:15,080
possibility that Joseph F Smith
would take his side and protect

2080
02:09:15,080 --> 02:09:16,560
him against the membership
trials.

2081
02:09:17,040 --> 02:09:20,400
So I'm going to ask a real blank
question now.

2082
02:09:21,280 --> 02:09:28,200
Did, in your opinion, did Joseph
F Smith throw Taylor to the

2083
02:09:28,200 --> 02:09:31,440
wolves at this point?
I don't know throwing him to the

2084
02:09:31,440 --> 02:09:36,000
wolves is the right answer, but
it's like my hands are tied.

2085
02:09:36,720 --> 02:09:38,040
OK.
Which is?

2086
02:09:39,200 --> 02:09:44,520
Which is fascinating, right?
Because we again, thinking about

2087
02:09:44,520 --> 02:09:49,640
Mormon hierarchy, especially
within the Church, he can pull

2088
02:09:49,640 --> 02:09:54,720
rank.
He can pull rank unless he's not

2089
02:09:54,720 --> 02:09:57,120
really in control.
Right.

2090
02:09:57,120 --> 02:09:59,480
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
And that goes back to that

2091
02:09:59,480 --> 02:10:02,400
tradition that Francis Lyman was
trying to find evidence to lock

2092
02:10:02,400 --> 02:10:07,320
up Joseph F Smith because he
suspected Joseph F was involved

2093
02:10:07,320 --> 02:10:11,680
with these things.
And look, I'm a guy who believes

2094
02:10:11,680 --> 02:10:17,200
that organizations, businesses,
whatever, have a kind of DNA to

2095
02:10:17,200 --> 02:10:24,760
them, OK?
And if if that's the DNA that is

2096
02:10:24,760 --> 02:10:28,640
there now, I'm not sure that
just goes away, Michael.

2097
02:10:28,640 --> 02:10:30,520
I I think that sticks around,
right.

2098
02:10:30,960 --> 02:10:34,760
And so now we have to this.
This has some implications for

2099
02:10:34,760 --> 02:10:39,560
our day, Who really has the
power and who really is pulling

2100
02:10:39,920 --> 02:10:43,480
all the levers.
You're asking the right

2101
02:10:43,480 --> 02:10:47,520
questions.
I don't have the I I don't have

2102
02:10:47,520 --> 02:10:49,840
the specific answers, but I know
what you're putting down.

2103
02:10:49,880 --> 02:10:54,440
I know what you're putting down.
There may or may not be another

2104
02:10:54,440 --> 02:10:59,720
episode coming that may dive in.
I'm not saying there is, but you

2105
02:10:59,720 --> 02:11:06,520
should probably count on it.
But anyway, fair enough, Fair

2106
02:11:06,520 --> 02:11:09,200
enough.
Back to Israel Barlow's case.

2107
02:11:09,720 --> 02:11:14,920
I forgot about this part.
They they're having him back to

2108
02:11:14,920 --> 02:11:22,280
talk about why he felt justified
in in taking another wife.

2109
02:11:24,120 --> 02:11:31,120
Interesting scenario he he
forges A postscript or APS you

2110
02:11:31,120 --> 02:11:35,160
know at the end of a letter that
he had from Owen Woodruff back

2111
02:11:35,160 --> 02:11:39,160
when Owen Woodruff was alive.
That Owen Woodruff had written

2112
02:11:39,160 --> 02:11:41,720
to him from when when Owen was
in Colorado.

2113
02:11:42,800 --> 02:11:48,880
And he has secretary like type A
on A put the paper back in A or

2114
02:11:48,880 --> 02:11:52,800
a copy of that paper back in a
typewriter and type the PS with

2115
02:11:52,800 --> 02:11:58,280
instructions from Owen Woodruff
to take his second wife and go

2116
02:11:58,280 --> 02:11:59,920
down to Mexico or something like
that.

2117
02:12:00,480 --> 02:12:04,000
In any case, he presents that as
evidence kind of lay the blame

2118
02:12:04,840 --> 02:12:07,160
on Owen Woodruff.
Who's dead and?

2119
02:12:07,160 --> 02:12:10,320
Heber J.
Grant discerns when looking at

2120
02:12:10,320 --> 02:12:16,760
the paper that the, that the
type was different, you know, OK

2121
02:12:17,240 --> 02:12:19,760
And it was detected as a
falsehood, unfortunately.

2122
02:12:21,400 --> 02:12:24,520
And so he couldn't salvage his
membership at that level.

2123
02:12:24,520 --> 02:12:26,800
But just an interesting little
footnote.

2124
02:12:28,880 --> 02:12:31,880
So we're getting into the trials
now, but I don't where did I?

2125
02:12:32,200 --> 02:12:35,480
Yeah, OK.
I'm not going to go into the

2126
02:12:35,560 --> 02:12:38,320
reading or any of the trial
because, well, maybe a little

2127
02:12:38,320 --> 02:12:44,560
bit, but because that would take
probably 2 episodes, so maybe

2128
02:12:44,560 --> 02:12:46,600
with one it would take a whole
episode to do.

2129
02:12:47,560 --> 02:12:52,680
And it's not really relevant in
its entirety to this topic, but

2130
02:12:52,680 --> 02:12:54,840
I will.
I do have Cliff notes to John W

2131
02:12:54,840 --> 02:12:58,320
Taylor's trial and I believe it
was February 11th, 1911.

2132
02:12:58,520 --> 02:13:03,400
No, February 22nd was probably
the second date because they

2133
02:13:03,400 --> 02:13:05,360
broke it up into two different
days.

2134
02:13:07,480 --> 02:13:11,720
So February 1911, the Cliff
Notes are Joseph Fielding Smith,

2135
02:13:11,720 --> 02:13:17,120
which is son of President Joseph
Smith, admits to making a copy

2136
02:13:17,600 --> 02:13:23,080
of the 1886 revelation that he
got from Rodney Badger, who is

2137
02:13:23,080 --> 02:13:27,040
brother-in-law, the John W
Taylor, and who's the father of

2138
02:13:27,400 --> 02:13:29,400
Al Jay Higgs, second wife.
Right.

2139
02:13:29,520 --> 02:13:30,760
So that's there's that
connection.

2140
02:13:32,160 --> 02:13:36,400
The apostles spend all the time
inquiring to John W Taylor's

2141
02:13:36,400 --> 02:13:39,560
personal activities.
They asked him about Patriarch

2142
02:13:39,880 --> 02:13:43,880
John A Wolf in Canada who had
been set apart by John W Taylor

2143
02:13:43,880 --> 02:13:46,320
and Joseph F Smith.
They talk about that for a bit.

2144
02:13:48,680 --> 02:13:52,080
They ask him personal questions
about him marrying his sixth

2145
02:13:52,080 --> 02:13:56,840
wife, Ellen Sandberg Taylor, and
he refuses to answer any

2146
02:13:56,840 --> 02:13:59,640
questions regarding that, though
he does give some information

2147
02:13:59,640 --> 02:14:01,880
regarding other plural
marriages.

2148
02:14:04,160 --> 02:14:07,120
He refuses to utterly say
anything about his own personal

2149
02:14:07,120 --> 02:14:10,480
affairs, and he cites pleading
the 5th from the Constitution

2150
02:14:11,360 --> 02:14:16,800
has, you know, reason to do so.
They and they asked him why, you

2151
02:14:16,800 --> 02:14:21,160
know, why are you pleading the
5th in a ecclesiastical meeting?

2152
02:14:21,600 --> 02:14:26,440
You know, and he tells them,
because it any quotes section 98

2153
02:14:26,520 --> 02:14:31,360
of the Doctrine and Covenants,
where it says from the Lord that

2154
02:14:31,360 --> 02:14:36,320
you should require nothing of
anyone that is not, that is less

2155
02:14:36,320 --> 02:14:39,480
than or more than the
Constitution, the law of the

2156
02:14:39,520 --> 02:14:44,600
United States, which is lawful.
Dude, that makes my heart swell

2157
02:14:44,600 --> 02:14:47,880
with joy.
And this is going to make it

2158
02:14:47,880 --> 02:14:49,360
even better.
Do you know who advised him as

2159
02:14:49,360 --> 02:14:52,400
his legal counsel to?
Do that, John.

2160
02:14:52,400 --> 02:14:56,040
M Cannon.
Nice, nice.

2161
02:14:56,760 --> 02:14:58,840
So, so.
Brother John M Cannon tells

2162
02:14:58,840 --> 02:15:02,040
Taylor to cite the 5th Amendment
to not to answer any of those

2163
02:15:02,040 --> 02:15:05,560
questions as he shouldn't be
forced to perjure himself.

2164
02:15:08,160 --> 02:15:13,520
John W Taylor tells the form of
the 12 that he had a 3 1/2 hour

2165
02:15:13,520 --> 02:15:16,720
conversation with President
Joseph F Smith and John Henry

2166
02:15:16,720 --> 02:15:19,360
Smith between the sessions of
the two trial.

2167
02:15:19,680 --> 02:15:21,360
Between the two sessions of the
trial.

2168
02:15:22,920 --> 02:15:27,440
In that, he also asked President
Smith to reconvene the Council

2169
02:15:27,440 --> 02:15:30,920
of 50.
And interestingly enough, he

2170
02:15:30,920 --> 02:15:37,440
also questioned Joseph F Smith
directly, saying Do you believe

2171
02:15:37,520 --> 02:15:42,840
in the revelation that my father
got in 1886, to which Joseph F

2172
02:15:42,840 --> 02:15:45,960
Smith told him, Yes, I do
believe it was a revelation from

2173
02:15:45,960 --> 02:15:48,560
God.
Then John W Taylor asks

2174
02:15:48,560 --> 02:15:51,840
President Smith, then why aren't
you doing anything to facilitate

2175
02:15:51,840 --> 02:15:58,400
it?
Wow, what support there at that,

2176
02:15:58,760 --> 02:16:00,280
at least up to that level they
are.

2177
02:16:00,320 --> 02:16:04,080
They are now seemingly not in
harmony, when it seems like

2178
02:16:04,080 --> 02:16:05,960
there had been harmony and
understanding before.

2179
02:16:06,080 --> 02:16:08,680
What was Smith's response?
Do we know?

2180
02:16:09,400 --> 02:16:13,240
I don't know.
I don't know, besides the fact

2181
02:16:13,240 --> 02:16:17,080
that a few years later, Joseph F
Smith and John Wooley appoint

2182
02:16:17,080 --> 02:16:22,720
Nathan G Clark and Joseph Musser
to perform the priesthood work.

2183
02:16:23,240 --> 02:16:26,600
After the excommunication of
John W Taylor.

2184
02:16:27,400 --> 02:16:28,960
Correct.
I'm sorry.

2185
02:16:28,960 --> 02:16:32,400
It's smacks of a man who no
longer has the authority to do

2186
02:16:32,400 --> 02:16:34,280
what he wants to do.
Yeah.

2187
02:16:34,280 --> 02:16:37,120
No, you're.
I don't disagree with that.

2188
02:16:37,559 --> 02:16:41,040
Oh.
Jeez, and I find it an

2189
02:16:41,040 --> 02:16:43,760
interesting omission.
Look, the absence of evidence

2190
02:16:44,080 --> 02:16:49,600
usually isn't evidence in and of
itself, but in this at at this

2191
02:16:49,600 --> 02:16:54,600
stage they're they're going to
excommunicate Taylor and then

2192
02:16:54,600 --> 02:16:59,000
continue to work and give
commissions to men to keep doing

2193
02:16:59,000 --> 02:17:02,360
plural marriage on the down low.
The other thing I find

2194
02:17:02,360 --> 02:17:06,440
interesting is that Taylor calls
for the council of 50 to be

2195
02:17:06,440 --> 02:17:10,840
reinstituted, right.
I think at this point Taylor

2196
02:17:10,840 --> 02:17:14,879
understands and and I this is
pure speculation on my part.

2197
02:17:15,200 --> 02:17:20,160
I think Taylor understands that
the quorum of the 12 and the

2198
02:17:20,160 --> 02:17:25,160
churches we've known it to this
point is gone and the only thing

2199
02:17:25,160 --> 02:17:30,840
that can bring this back is kind
of a higher council now, which

2200
02:17:30,840 --> 02:17:35,719
would be the council of 50.
Well, which is designed to

2201
02:17:35,719 --> 02:17:39,400
protect everyone in their civil
rights, You know, their civil

2202
02:17:39,840 --> 02:17:41,120
rights, Yeah.
Yeah.

2203
02:17:41,240 --> 02:17:45,280
And which, even if he's at
variance with the position of

2204
02:17:45,280 --> 02:17:48,719
the Quorum of the 12, he still
has the right to his own pursuit

2205
02:17:48,719 --> 02:17:51,160
of happiness, right?
Right.

2206
02:17:52,280 --> 02:17:55,680
And yeah, I don't know how they
would do that because that's

2207
02:17:55,680 --> 02:17:59,160
that's a dicey situation.
So can the Council of 50 judge

2208
02:17:59,200 --> 02:18:02,480
that in the church?
Can the Because the Council of

2209
02:18:02,480 --> 02:18:07,080
50 is.
Not a church, I don't know like.

2210
02:18:08,240 --> 02:18:13,280
And now we get into speculation
about just how much sway Joseph

2211
02:18:13,280 --> 02:18:16,320
intended the Council of 50 to
have in these matters.

2212
02:18:17,200 --> 02:18:19,600
Right.
Another historical note is that

2213
02:18:19,600 --> 02:18:22,680
the Council of 50 has not been
operative till since at least

2214
02:18:22,680 --> 02:18:30,080
1892, right?
True again, it just I, I I know

2215
02:18:30,080 --> 02:18:32,719
I'm beating a dead horse here
but everything just points to

2216
02:18:32,719 --> 02:18:35,200
kind of a takeover.
I don't know how else to say it

2217
02:18:35,680 --> 02:18:39,799
and and Taylor's doing trying to
pull out every stop he can make

2218
02:18:40,480 --> 02:18:44,680
to to to reverse this and it's
just not happening.

2219
02:18:46,680 --> 02:18:49,520
Yeah, so that's an interesting
footnote, skipping to Matthias

2220
02:18:49,520 --> 02:18:53,520
Cowley's trial and then back.
But at Matthias Cowley's trial,

2221
02:18:53,520 --> 02:18:59,400
which I believe was in May of
1911, they asked him if he had

2222
02:18:59,400 --> 02:19:02,639
heard of a ring of people in the
church who thought that John W

2223
02:19:02,639 --> 02:19:06,320
Taylor would one day be the
president of the church now.

2224
02:19:06,840 --> 02:19:10,400
That is.
That is very striking.

2225
02:19:10,400 --> 02:19:13,600
At least this is it's very it's
this is very interesting

2226
02:19:13,600 --> 02:19:16,559
information for several reasons.
Because we have that prophecy

2227
02:19:16,559 --> 02:19:18,719
from John W Taylor that there's
going to be a schism in the

2228
02:19:18,719 --> 02:19:22,719
church with two factions 1.
Monogamist 1 polygamist.

2229
02:19:23,040 --> 02:19:30,639
We have knowledge that John W
Taylor has a network, if you can

2230
02:19:30,639 --> 02:19:34,400
call it such, of people
perpetuating Celestials liberal

2231
02:19:34,400 --> 02:19:39,120
marriage.
And there is a story told in

2232
02:19:39,440 --> 02:19:44,320
Family Kingdom by Samuel Wooley
Taylor, John WS Son, that around

2233
02:19:44,320 --> 02:19:48,120
this time a fundamentalist
leader came to John W Taylor,

2234
02:19:49,080 --> 02:19:52,440
asking him to spearhead and be
the figurehead for the movement

2235
02:19:53,120 --> 02:19:59,600
and the dialogue between them.
It goes such as the trial was

2236
02:19:59,600 --> 02:20:02,560
not legal because it wasn't.
It was not a high council.

2237
02:20:02,560 --> 02:20:03,840
Therefore you know you're not
cut off.

2238
02:20:04,280 --> 02:20:07,560
It also seems to insinuate that
you have higher priesthood keys

2239
02:20:07,560 --> 02:20:10,800
and blessings anyways, which
can't be taken from you, right?

2240
02:20:10,800 --> 02:20:17,880
No matter.
And you have a duty to to lead

2241
02:20:17,880 --> 02:20:20,040
this people.
The people will flock to your

2242
02:20:20,040 --> 02:20:29,600
banner and so forth and so on.
Samuel Wooley Taylor takes the,

2243
02:20:29,760 --> 02:20:33,160
you know, because he is, first
of all, to say, a fundamentalist

2244
02:20:33,160 --> 02:20:36,280
leader or anything like that is
kind of anachronistic because

2245
02:20:36,280 --> 02:20:37,600
fundamentalism hasn't happened
yet.

2246
02:20:37,600 --> 02:20:40,080
And Marky Peterson wasn't even a
member of the form of the 12

2247
02:20:40,360 --> 02:20:42,880
yet, and he coined the term
Mormon fundamentalist.

2248
02:20:43,480 --> 02:20:47,360
So you got to take some things
said in that account by Samuel

2249
02:20:47,360 --> 02:20:49,640
Wooley Taylor with some
skepticism.

2250
02:20:49,840 --> 02:20:55,480
But the themes across the board
are very consistent from what I

2251
02:20:55,480 --> 02:20:57,920
see.
And that is, there probably was

2252
02:20:58,160 --> 02:21:03,680
people from that network who
were waiting for John W Taylor

2253
02:21:03,680 --> 02:21:05,760
to just come and lead the
people.

2254
02:21:07,080 --> 02:21:09,600
I don't like Moses.
I don't know, Out of Egypt, so

2255
02:21:09,640 --> 02:21:12,360
to speak.
It would be interesting to know

2256
02:21:12,360 --> 02:21:18,080
what Taylor's thoughts are on
that right, because for a long

2257
02:21:18,080 --> 02:21:23,000
time, and I and I would contend
probably certainly into Brigham

2258
02:21:23,000 --> 02:21:28,040
and Taylor's presidencies,
Wilford's as well, There's this

2259
02:21:28,040 --> 02:21:30,680
thing of just trying to hold the
church together.

2260
02:21:30,680 --> 02:21:32,760
Mm hmm.
Right.

2261
02:21:32,760 --> 02:21:36,360
And so now you're starting to
come to a point at which they're

2262
02:21:36,360 --> 02:21:39,800
like, well, maybe there needs to
be a divorce, an ecclesiastical

2263
02:21:39,800 --> 02:21:43,880
divorce.
And it's interesting that Taylor

2264
02:21:43,880 --> 02:21:47,560
doesn't pick up that banner.
And I'm wondering why not?

2265
02:21:48,120 --> 02:21:56,840
Well, I personally I think the
the truth is probably less less

2266
02:21:56,840 --> 02:21:59,160
the direction that Samuel Taylor
takes it.

2267
02:21:59,160 --> 02:22:02,360
He basically, Samuel Wooley
Taylor paints it in such a way

2268
02:22:02,960 --> 02:22:06,120
that John W Taylor did not want
to divide the church and that

2269
02:22:06,120 --> 02:22:14,200
part's true, but that he also
encouraged people not to form a

2270
02:22:14,200 --> 02:22:17,880
group and that he had a
testimony of the church and

2271
02:22:17,960 --> 02:22:20,080
those there are kernels of truth
in.

2272
02:22:20,080 --> 02:22:25,200
That I believe John W Taylor had
the discernment to know now was

2273
02:22:25,200 --> 02:22:30,320
not right, not the right time,
and that with his charisma it

2274
02:22:30,320 --> 02:22:36,440
would have split the church
before it was ready to be split,

2275
02:22:36,440 --> 02:22:39,440
I guess.
No, that makes sense.

2276
02:22:40,120 --> 02:22:42,120
That makes sense.
OK.

2277
02:22:42,880 --> 02:22:46,720
And he would die within a few
years at that point anyways, and

2278
02:22:46,720 --> 02:22:48,360
so it would have been a short
lived.

2279
02:22:50,040 --> 02:22:53,760
His tenure as a A leader
officially would have been short

2280
02:22:53,760 --> 02:22:55,400
lived anyways.
Right.

2281
02:22:55,400 --> 02:22:56,720
So he could.
Yeah.

2282
02:22:57,560 --> 02:22:59,280
No, that makes sense.
OK.

2283
02:22:59,320 --> 02:23:02,600
No, that makes sense.
All right, but interesting

2284
02:23:02,600 --> 02:23:05,600
nonetheless that they ask him
about if Matthias.

2285
02:23:05,680 --> 02:23:08,400
They asked Callie if he'd ever
heard talk about Taylor being

2286
02:23:08,400 --> 02:23:13,240
president of the church.
Back to Taylor's account.

2287
02:23:13,280 --> 02:23:15,360
Super interesting.
I never would have caught this

2288
02:23:15,360 --> 02:23:18,160
if I hadn't read the book
Apostles on Trial by Drew Briny.

2289
02:23:18,280 --> 02:23:19,880
Shout out to Drew Briny again,
right?

2290
02:23:21,880 --> 02:23:27,240
He points out something super
interesting in the flow, like

2291
02:23:27,320 --> 02:23:35,240
there's a deletion of part of
the trial and it resumes with

2292
02:23:35,320 --> 02:23:40,240
Charles Penrose saying I motion
that we delete that or remove

2293
02:23:40,240 --> 02:23:41,960
that from the record.
Sit.

2294
02:23:42,000 --> 02:23:45,280
As John W Taylor said, he will
claim all responsibility.

2295
02:23:45,640 --> 02:23:48,400
And then which John W Taylor
follows in the transcript, I

2296
02:23:48,400 --> 02:23:55,040
will assume all responsibility.
So do you think he says that he

2297
02:23:55,040 --> 02:23:58,040
got his his Commission from
Joseph F Smith?

2298
02:23:58,480 --> 02:24:00,920
No, I do not believe he said
that because then that would

2299
02:24:00,920 --> 02:24:03,360
have played into Francis M
Lyman's alleged.

2300
02:24:03,840 --> 02:24:05,440
That's a good point.
That's a good point.

2301
02:24:05,960 --> 02:24:10,040
What do you think it says?
I think he tells them about the

2302
02:24:10,040 --> 02:24:14,520
Judson Tolman thing.
And interestingly enough if I

2303
02:24:14,720 --> 02:24:17,280
can't quite make sense of this,
but I'd love to see some

2304
02:24:17,280 --> 02:24:21,000
original source documents.
And not just the the digital

2305
02:24:21,000 --> 02:24:23,960
source documents that I have of
minutes of the quorum of the 12

2306
02:24:24,240 --> 02:24:28,120
from this time period, but in
Charles Penrose's diary.

2307
02:24:28,520 --> 02:24:31,960
Because Penrose again is the one
who motions that this part be

2308
02:24:31,960 --> 02:24:34,880
stricken from a record.
But in his journal, he writes

2309
02:24:35,560 --> 02:24:42,800
February 22nd arrived with the
John W Taylor nine of the 12

2310
02:24:42,800 --> 02:24:45,600
present at AS.
Taylor refused to comment on

2311
02:24:45,600 --> 02:24:50,040
allegations that he continued to
perform plural marriages and was

2312
02:24:50,040 --> 02:24:52,640
taking additional wives on the
grounds that he wanted to

2313
02:24:52,640 --> 02:24:56,360
legally protect himself.
However, Taylor complained of

2314
02:24:56,360 --> 02:24:58,920
church influence in politics and
admitted.

2315
02:24:59,160 --> 02:25:02,920
To giving patriarch.
John W Wooley, Authority to

2316
02:25:02,920 --> 02:25:06,040
perform Plural marriages,
producing a copy of the

2317
02:25:06,040 --> 02:25:08,000
Revelation to his father, John
Taylor.

2318
02:25:08,280 --> 02:25:12,080
He interpreted interpreted it to
mean that the man who stood at

2319
02:25:12,080 --> 02:25:15,160
the head of the church was
relieved of the responsibility

2320
02:25:15,520 --> 02:25:20,360
of holding the keys and free
agency was given, to quote all

2321
02:25:20,360 --> 02:25:26,840
my people.
OK, so he walked.

2322
02:25:27,080 --> 02:25:32,000
Up there, Yeah, yeah, Well, and.
And my mind immediately goes

2323
02:25:32,000 --> 02:25:37,880
back to that conversation that
we talked about on a previous

2324
02:25:37,880 --> 02:25:42,400
episode between Joseph Smith and
John Taylor, where he says if

2325
02:25:42,400 --> 02:25:44,640
these keys aren't used, they'll
be turned against you.

2326
02:25:45,240 --> 02:25:49,680
Yes, absolutely.
And and at at that level, it

2327
02:25:49,680 --> 02:25:53,720
basically means, well,
concerning this principle, it's

2328
02:25:53,720 --> 02:25:56,480
kind of been turned against you.
It's it's no longer within your

2329
02:25:56,480 --> 02:25:59,160
purview as president of the
church.

2330
02:25:59,680 --> 02:26:02,360
Very interesting, and I would
not disagree with that.

2331
02:26:02,760 --> 02:26:06,800
And it that that interpretation
fits with the 1882 revelation,

2332
02:26:06,800 --> 02:26:10,240
which is you are not fit to
preside in my priesthood if you

2333
02:26:10,240 --> 02:26:14,360
do not live my law.
Right, right, absolutely.

2334
02:26:15,880 --> 02:26:18,440
So interesting.
So according to Penrose, and

2335
02:26:18,440 --> 02:26:22,760
like I said, I would love to see
a handwritten version of that,

2336
02:26:22,760 --> 02:26:26,280
but I got that electronically
where he says that Joe, that

2337
02:26:26,280 --> 02:26:30,040
John W Taylor authorized John W
Wooley to perform plural

2338
02:26:30,040 --> 02:26:32,920
marriages.
So I think he talked about that

2339
02:26:32,920 --> 02:26:34,960
at the very least and that was
the part that was deleted.

2340
02:26:35,200 --> 02:26:41,800
What makes me wonder why that is
is or how that could be is

2341
02:26:41,800 --> 02:26:47,560
because if John W Taylor admits
to that in 1911, why is it not

2342
02:26:47,640 --> 02:26:51,160
that John W Wooley isn't
excommunicated until December of

2343
02:26:51,160 --> 02:26:54,480
1914?
Maybe they maybe they wanted to

2344
02:26:54,480 --> 02:26:58,240
see, look they the church has
some inkling here now the the

2345
02:26:58,240 --> 02:27:02,280
Quorum of the 12 does that.
Taylor seems to be the guy,

2346
02:27:02,600 --> 02:27:06,320
right.
They ask questions about, you

2347
02:27:06,320 --> 02:27:09,120
know, have you heard anything
about Taylor starting his own

2348
02:27:09,120 --> 02:27:14,160
church or that he'll become
president of of the of the

2349
02:27:14,160 --> 02:27:17,160
church?
Maybe their thought is if we lop

2350
02:27:17,160 --> 02:27:21,160
off this figurehead, the rest
will fall into line.

2351
02:27:21,760 --> 02:27:23,440
Yeah, that's very true.
That's very possible.

2352
02:27:23,480 --> 02:27:27,440
Absolutely.
In that trial, John W Taylor

2353
02:27:27,440 --> 02:27:30,520
also says that it was one of the
greatest tragedies in the church

2354
02:27:30,520 --> 02:27:33,280
that Bishop Samuel Robinson was
cut off from the church.

2355
02:27:34,360 --> 02:27:35,960
And maybe he was cut off from
the church, but he was the

2356
02:27:35,960 --> 02:27:38,960
Bishop in Mexico that George
Albert Smith went to go replace.

2357
02:27:38,960 --> 02:27:40,560
Right.
So.

2358
02:27:42,080 --> 02:27:45,320
So John W Taylor says that it
was a great, the greatest

2359
02:27:45,320 --> 02:27:48,120
tragedy in the church.
That.

2360
02:27:48,320 --> 02:27:50,880
Was cut off.
That's probably a bit of an

2361
02:27:50,880 --> 02:27:52,800
exaggeration, right?
Right.

2362
02:27:52,800 --> 02:27:58,760
And he and he goes on to say
that he admires men like Henry

2363
02:27:58,760 --> 02:28:03,080
Tanner and Nathan Clark.
He also tells the 12 that at

2364
02:28:03,080 --> 02:28:07,480
this point in time that he
endorsed Nathan Clark's worship

2365
02:28:07,480 --> 02:28:12,120
of his daughter Alta.
He tells the 12 in this meeting

2366
02:28:12,400 --> 02:28:15,640
that Joseph Robinson, from the
mission president from

2367
02:28:15,640 --> 02:28:20,040
California, right, asked for a
copy of the 1886 revelation with

2368
02:28:20,080 --> 02:28:23,040
Matthias Cowley and got it from
John's brother-in-law, Rodney

2369
02:28:23,040 --> 02:28:26,840
Badger.
They asked if he had married his

2370
02:28:26,840 --> 02:28:28,880
typewriter as a plural wife.
Her name?

2371
02:28:28,880 --> 02:28:32,880
Yeah, Ellen Sandberg.
Her sisters, as we discussed

2372
02:28:32,880 --> 02:28:36,720
earlier, married Walter W Steed,
who also lived in Farmington up

2373
02:28:36,720 --> 02:28:40,480
in Davis County, And another
sister married Thomas J Steed.

2374
02:28:41,160 --> 02:28:46,640
And when Thomas J Steed died,
she remarried Nathaniel Baldwin

2375
02:28:46,800 --> 02:28:48,320
as his second wife.
Wow.

2376
02:28:53,280 --> 02:28:58,640
So that's super interesting.
So Nathaniel Baldwin was the the

2377
02:28:59,600 --> 02:29:05,360
altruistic polygamist benefactor
of the 1920s with the Radio

2378
02:29:05,360 --> 02:29:07,240
Plant put all the polygamists to
work.

2379
02:29:07,440 --> 02:29:09,720
Help to build.
Their subsidized the building of

2380
02:29:09,720 --> 02:29:15,760
their houses in forestdale.
His second wife was so he he

2381
02:29:15,760 --> 02:29:17,880
basically becomes a
brother-in-law to John W Taylor.

2382
02:29:17,880 --> 02:29:20,200
He's hey, Brother Taylor's dead
at that point.

2383
02:29:20,200 --> 02:29:23,920
But that's all I'm saying, dude.
The connections to John W Taylor

2384
02:29:23,920 --> 02:29:27,200
are everywhere in this.
All roads lead lead to Taylor,

2385
02:29:27,920 --> 02:29:31,720
yeah.
His first wife, if I remember

2386
02:29:31,720 --> 02:29:34,280
correctly, as a fun fact for
other fundamentalists listening

2387
02:29:34,280 --> 02:29:40,040
to this, was an oler, which is a
big name in First Word.

2388
02:29:40,400 --> 02:29:44,480
Or the FLDS, OK.
Or up in UP in Canada.

2389
02:29:45,480 --> 02:29:48,080
So that's how the that's how I.
Think how the Olers get

2390
02:29:48,080 --> 02:29:50,400
involved?
Was that Nathaniel Baldwin's

2391
02:29:50,400 --> 02:29:54,240
first wife?
Wasn't the Sandberg family?

2392
02:29:54,240 --> 02:29:57,480
So those three sisters, right,
that are have been married to

2393
02:29:57,480 --> 02:30:01,280
John W and the steeds and
Nathaniel Baldwin come up in

2394
02:30:01,280 --> 02:30:05,560
Baldwin's journal with Cowley
and patriarch Homer Brown,

2395
02:30:05,560 --> 02:30:10,720
father of future apostle Hugh B.
Brown, giving blessings to

2396
02:30:10,720 --> 02:30:15,320
members of that family.
John W Taylor tells The 12 that

2397
02:30:15,320 --> 02:30:18,200
he has never married anyone
without the permission of the

2398
02:30:18,200 --> 02:30:22,080
president of the church in that
meeting, which seriously upset

2399
02:30:22,480 --> 02:30:26,400
Hiram Max Smith, who's you know,
because Hiram Max Smith's father

2400
02:30:26,400 --> 02:30:29,960
is the president of the church.
I'll read that part to you,

2401
02:30:32,080 --> 02:30:35,160
Hiram Max Smith says.
Quote I.

2402
02:30:35,160 --> 02:30:37,320
Think you have.
Implied in your attitude that

2403
02:30:37,320 --> 02:30:40,560
President Smith has not told the
truth, I feel that Brother

2404
02:30:40,560 --> 02:30:43,920
Taylor desires to imply that
President Joseph F Smith gave

2405
02:30:43,920 --> 02:30:47,280
him the authority, but will
deny, will not deny or affirm

2406
02:30:47,280 --> 02:30:51,560
it, John W Taylor says, Brother
Hiram, if I should turn my

2407
02:30:51,560 --> 02:30:54,680
tongue loose, there would be the
damnedest time in this state you

2408
02:30:54,680 --> 02:30:58,320
have ever had, Hiram Max Smith
says.

2409
02:30:58,320 --> 02:31:01,360
I think you're the creating the
damnedest time by keeping still

2410
02:31:02,400 --> 02:31:07,200
so Hiram Hiram Smith's getting
upset with Taylor, insinuating

2411
02:31:07,200 --> 02:31:11,880
that President Smith is behind
everything but not admitting it.

2412
02:31:14,360 --> 02:31:18,240
That's an interesting that's
that's an interesting snippet,

2413
02:31:18,240 --> 02:31:20,720
right?
Because it sounds like Hiram has

2414
02:31:20,720 --> 02:31:25,720
no idea that his dad, Joseph,
has been engaged in the work

2415
02:31:25,720 --> 02:31:27,920
like he has been.
Yeah, and he thinks it's

2416
02:31:27,920 --> 02:31:31,840
absolutely silly, right?
They think so, but I don't think

2417
02:31:31,840 --> 02:31:35,600
it's silly whatsoever.
Let's see.

2418
02:31:36,640 --> 02:31:40,480
Anthony Ivans mentions in the
trial that when they cut off

2419
02:31:40,480 --> 02:31:44,480
Bishop Samuel Robinson, Samuel
Robinson told the 12 that he had

2420
02:31:44,480 --> 02:31:47,440
gotten the right to enter into a
plural marriage from John W

2421
02:31:47,440 --> 02:31:49,320
Taylor.
So he got implicated in that

2422
02:31:49,320 --> 02:31:54,160
association as well that way,
Ivan said.

2423
02:31:54,240 --> 02:31:58,720
I was instructed of President
Smith to depose him from his

2424
02:31:58,720 --> 02:32:02,800
bishopric, and I would like to
know where the outrage exists,

2425
02:32:03,520 --> 02:32:06,080
John W Taylor says.
I remember consulting with

2426
02:32:06,080 --> 02:32:09,480
brother Ivan's about Robinson's
case, he having been promised

2427
02:32:09,480 --> 02:32:12,920
long before President Smith's
declaration that he should have

2428
02:32:12,920 --> 02:32:15,400
another wife.
And I referred to him.

2429
02:32:16,160 --> 02:32:19,200
I referred him to President
Smith and he came to Salt Lake

2430
02:32:19,200 --> 02:32:22,920
and saw the President and I
returned to my home in Provo

2431
02:32:23,280 --> 02:32:25,520
where he called upon me one day
in the field.

2432
02:32:25,520 --> 02:32:29,160
And while take while talking he
broke down in tears and I

2433
02:32:29,160 --> 02:32:32,920
thought he was sad but he said
he was crying for joy.

2434
02:32:33,240 --> 02:32:36,760
He said that President Smith
told him to hunt out the way and

2435
02:32:36,760 --> 02:32:40,160
if he could find the way, the
president said, God bless you.

2436
02:32:40,680 --> 02:32:43,520
He said he had found the way and
asked if he could send his wife

2437
02:32:43,520 --> 02:32:45,720
to me.
And I told him yes, I would and

2438
02:32:45,720 --> 02:32:47,360
I will care for her as long as I
could.

2439
02:32:49,400 --> 02:32:52,440
And John said that he had no
idea who married Robinson to his

2440
02:32:52,440 --> 02:32:56,200
new wife.
Probably John Wooley, right?

2441
02:32:56,760 --> 02:33:00,520
That's my guess.
Could have been told, but I

2442
02:33:00,520 --> 02:33:03,000
don't recall seeing his name on
the Tollman ceiling record that

2443
02:33:03,000 --> 02:33:06,720
I have.
But so that's really

2444
02:33:06,720 --> 02:33:07,880
interesting.
So you have.

2445
02:33:07,920 --> 02:33:11,360
Yeah.
Ivan saying that Robinson told

2446
02:33:11,360 --> 02:33:13,840
the 12 that he got the right
from Taylor.

2447
02:33:14,440 --> 02:33:18,880
Taylor's recalling that all the
interaction he had with Robinson

2448
02:33:18,880 --> 02:33:22,960
was that Robinson had gone to
President Joseph F Smith and

2449
02:33:22,960 --> 02:33:25,040
said and he had been told to
hunt the way out.

2450
02:33:25,200 --> 02:33:29,800
Right.
And God bless you, yeah, some

2451
02:33:29,800 --> 02:33:33,000
dialogue worth noting between
Charles Penrose and John W

2452
02:33:33,000 --> 02:33:36,360
Taylor.
Charles Penrose asks John.

2453
02:33:36,800 --> 02:33:39,720
Now, under this purported
revelation from your father, do

2454
02:33:39,720 --> 02:33:43,600
you think this authority is
given to anyone to perform a

2455
02:33:43,600 --> 02:33:45,560
plural marriage on their own
free agency?

2456
02:33:46,120 --> 02:33:51,240
John responds if a man had been
authorized in any way by

2457
02:33:51,240 --> 02:33:54,160
authority to perform a marriage
under that revelation.

2458
02:33:54,160 --> 02:33:57,640
He would be.
Charles Penrose then said, if a

2459
02:33:57,640 --> 02:34:00,680
man had received authority at
some time in the past, would he

2460
02:34:00,680 --> 02:34:04,120
have authority now,
Notwithstanding the declarations

2461
02:34:04,120 --> 02:34:09,640
of President Snow and Smith?
John says it would depend upon

2462
02:34:09,640 --> 02:34:13,360
the circumstances as to what was
said to him at the time he

2463
02:34:13,360 --> 02:34:17,000
received the authority and the
condition under which he

2464
02:34:17,000 --> 02:34:19,720
received it.
I think there may be cases where

2465
02:34:19,720 --> 02:34:22,600
a man might be justified in
exercising the authority if he

2466
02:34:22,600 --> 02:34:24,680
had the authority given to him
at one time.

2467
02:34:25,640 --> 02:34:28,320
I think the president of the
Church should give the authority

2468
02:34:28,320 --> 02:34:30,480
to every man who performs a
plural marriage.

2469
02:34:31,520 --> 02:34:34,880
I would not take, I would not
take advantage of this

2470
02:34:34,880 --> 02:34:40,080
revelation after the opinion of
your brethren and your ideas

2471
02:34:40,080 --> 02:34:43,240
expressed here, George F
Richards then asked Taylor.

2472
02:34:43,400 --> 02:34:47,000
Have you, brethren ever talked
about a question of a division

2473
02:34:47,000 --> 02:34:49,680
in the church and there being 2
factions in the church?

2474
02:34:49,840 --> 02:34:53,560
So there that that topic comes
up again in Taylor's meeting as

2475
02:34:53,560 --> 02:34:56,320
well.
It would be interesting to see

2476
02:34:56,440 --> 02:34:59,920
on the temple recommend
interview questions when they

2477
02:34:59,920 --> 02:35:04,280
said you know there's that one
question in the in the church

2478
02:35:04,600 --> 02:35:09,680
where they ask do you sustain so
and so As the only person

2479
02:35:09,680 --> 02:35:13,760
authorized on earth to exercise
all the keys of the priesthood,

2480
02:35:13,880 --> 02:35:17,360
I'd be fascinated to know when
that question originated on a

2481
02:35:17,360 --> 02:35:20,480
recommended interview I.
Think during Hebrew J Grant's

2482
02:35:20,480 --> 02:35:25,200
presidency.
And that's interesting to know

2483
02:35:25,480 --> 02:35:29,040
the time period, right?
Absolutely.

2484
02:35:30,920 --> 02:35:34,920
Now for the verdict.
The verdict of the trial as

2485
02:35:34,920 --> 02:35:38,360
stated in the official papers
and all that is quote.

2486
02:35:40,920 --> 02:35:43,240
This is from Francis Lyman.
Francis Lyman presented the

2487
02:35:43,240 --> 02:35:45,920
following.
Brother Taylor admitted of

2488
02:35:45,920 --> 02:35:49,120
wrongs in Canada and Davis
County.

2489
02:35:49,560 --> 02:35:55,200
He tacked 10, tactically admits
his late marriage with his

2490
02:35:55,200 --> 02:35:57,920
typewriter.
He has cursed and threatened his

2491
02:35:57,920 --> 02:36:00,160
brethren.
He has put out a purported

2492
02:36:00,160 --> 02:36:02,880
revelation of his father's,
which his father never presented

2493
02:36:02,880 --> 02:36:06,720
to the church, nor his brethren.
His construction upon it is very

2494
02:36:06,720 --> 02:36:09,960
mischievous and against the
position and discipline of the

2495
02:36:09,960 --> 02:36:13,560
Church by the living oracles.
It was in his power to have

2496
02:36:13,560 --> 02:36:17,080
restrained Brother Cowley and
Woodruff, meaning Owen Woodruff,

2497
02:36:17,080 --> 02:36:19,720
right?
But instead his course lent

2498
02:36:19,720 --> 02:36:22,920
encouragement to them.
He has had no change of heart

2499
02:36:22,920 --> 02:36:24,880
since he resigned his position
in the Council.

2500
02:36:25,200 --> 02:36:28,160
He has not met with us in a
friendly manner and penitent

2501
02:36:28,160 --> 02:36:30,400
spirit.
He blames us instead of himself

2502
02:36:30,400 --> 02:36:34,600
for his troubles.
He said he never wants to be

2503
02:36:34,600 --> 02:36:37,680
associated with the 12 in time
or eternity.

2504
02:36:38,000 --> 02:36:41,080
When his brethren reported his
cursing of George Albert Smith,

2505
02:36:41,520 --> 02:36:44,280
he said that they were liars,
the action of the state

2506
02:36:44,280 --> 02:36:47,080
presidency and High Council.
In the case of Bishop Bishop

2507
02:36:47,080 --> 02:36:49,840
Robinson, he denounces as the
damnedest outrage ever

2508
02:36:49,840 --> 02:36:52,680
perpetuated.
In a threatening manner he tells

2509
02:36:52,680 --> 02:36:55,520
us of the awful things that
would happen to the Church if he

2510
02:36:55,520 --> 02:36:57,960
should open his mouth and tell
what he knows.

2511
02:36:58,560 --> 02:37:02,720
He greatly admires Henry S
Tanner and Nathan Clark, who we

2512
02:37:02,720 --> 02:37:07,960
have found to be unsafe man.
His examples and words give

2513
02:37:08,040 --> 02:37:11,000
comfort and encouragement to
those inclined to override the

2514
02:37:11,000 --> 02:37:16,360
discipline of the Church.
So any idea if it was unanimous

2515
02:37:16,360 --> 02:37:20,720
or if it was a simple majority?
It was unanimous in his case.

2516
02:37:21,000 --> 02:37:28,880
Cowley's case was different.
I don't remember off the top of

2517
02:37:28,880 --> 02:37:32,440
my head if there was a
difference in who was there for,

2518
02:37:32,480 --> 02:37:35,920
you know, vice versa, you know,
'cause I don't believe it was a

2519
02:37:35,920 --> 02:37:38,120
full quorum.
In either case, it was enough to

2520
02:37:38,120 --> 02:37:41,600
constitute a quorum meaning 7,
or present, which is the bare

2521
02:37:41,600 --> 02:37:45,040
minimum to have a legal action
for a quorum, at least in the

2522
02:37:45,040 --> 02:37:48,400
case of the 12, but I did not
believe it was a full quorum.

2523
02:37:50,640 --> 02:37:54,840
John W Taylor is therefore
excommunicated or it's announced

2524
02:37:54,960 --> 02:38:00,400
in March 28th, 1911.
But I want to go back to that

2525
02:38:00,400 --> 02:38:04,080
verdict, which I believe he
supports.

2526
02:38:04,080 --> 02:38:08,080
My theory about that deletion
because Lyman presents that the

2527
02:38:08,080 --> 02:38:10,240
verdict is that he admitted
wrong.

2528
02:38:10,240 --> 02:38:13,320
He's getting excommunicated
partly for admitting wrongs in

2529
02:38:13,320 --> 02:38:16,720
Canada and Davis County.
Now what happened in Davis

2530
02:38:16,720 --> 02:38:22,200
County, Dave?
Joseph Wooley I can't remember

2531
02:38:22,200 --> 02:38:28,720
the first name.
Wooley Wooley succeeds Judson as

2532
02:38:28,720 --> 02:38:32,160
patriot, right?
So I'm guessing that his

2533
02:38:32,160 --> 02:38:36,880
admission that that authority
stems from him, so to speak.

2534
02:38:37,480 --> 02:38:40,240
I believe so.
Was was what did it.

2535
02:38:40,800 --> 02:38:44,560
Yeah, I think the there's a lot
of really good connections there

2536
02:38:44,560 --> 02:38:49,360
that makes perfect sense to me.
In any case, I you know I could

2537
02:38:49,360 --> 02:38:51,280
be wrong, but I don't think I'm
wrong on that one.

2538
02:38:52,000 --> 02:38:56,720
No there there seems to be a lot
of corroborating evidence that

2539
02:38:56,720 --> 02:38:59,280
would that would bear that out.
Yep.

2540
02:38:59,320 --> 02:39:01,360
And we're going to get to more
of it too, by the way.

2541
02:39:02,600 --> 02:39:07,840
So he's excommunicated some
tradition states that after his

2542
02:39:07,840 --> 02:39:11,920
excommunication, he begins more
fully to refer men to John W

2543
02:39:11,920 --> 02:39:17,960
Wooley for their blessings on
April 11th, 1911.

2544
02:39:19,160 --> 02:39:23,480
This is so interesting to me
because it validates a lot of

2545
02:39:23,480 --> 02:39:25,280
what we've talked about the last
five episodes.

2546
02:39:25,680 --> 02:39:31,200
On April 11th, 1911, President
Joseph F Smith acknowledges in a

2547
02:39:31,200 --> 02:39:36,600
telegram to Senator Reed Smoot
that Taylor's understanding of

2548
02:39:36,600 --> 02:39:39,280
the scope of the 1890 manifesto
was not maverick.

2549
02:39:39,320 --> 02:39:42,840
I'm and I'm quoting Quinn, by
the way, but this is what the

2550
02:39:42,840 --> 02:39:46,640
telegram says.
If President Roosevelt inquires

2551
02:39:46,640 --> 02:39:48,600
about new polygamy, tell him the
truth.

2552
02:39:49,240 --> 02:39:53,200
Tell him that President George Q
Cannon was the first to conceive

2553
02:39:53,440 --> 02:39:56,560
the idea that we would that we
could consistently countenance

2554
02:39:56,560 --> 02:40:00,760
polygamy beyond the confines of
the Republic where we have no

2555
02:40:00,760 --> 02:40:03,920
chartered law against it.
And consequently he authorized

2556
02:40:03,920 --> 02:40:08,720
the solemnization of polygamy in
Mexico and Canada after the

2557
02:40:08,720 --> 02:40:13,200
Manifesto of 1890 and the men
occupying presiding positions.

2558
02:40:13,640 --> 02:40:17,240
Who became polygamists since the
Manifesto did it in good faith?

2559
02:40:17,400 --> 02:40:22,040
Wow.
That's a heck of an admission

2560
02:40:22,040 --> 02:40:24,720
that that they entered it in
good faith.

2561
02:40:24,880 --> 02:40:27,520
Yeah, and I mean, that was a
telegram to Smoot, so obviously

2562
02:40:27,520 --> 02:40:29,840
that guy buried until Quinn
found it.

2563
02:40:30,320 --> 02:40:33,440
Smoot never put that out,
probably, but that's hugely

2564
02:40:33,440 --> 02:40:35,400
telling.
And I think it's a bit of a

2565
02:40:35,400 --> 02:40:39,920
gloss because I think Joseph F
Smith was just as involved as

2566
02:40:39,920 --> 02:40:43,440
George Buchanan was, although he
probably took a junior role

2567
02:40:43,440 --> 02:40:46,000
because George Q Cannon was
senior by ordination.

2568
02:40:47,480 --> 02:40:52,440
But he's literally saying George
Q Cannon orchestrated this whole

2569
02:40:52,440 --> 02:40:58,160
thing, which he was at John
Wooley's house in 1886 when the

2570
02:40:58,160 --> 02:41:03,960
1886 revelation was received.
We have Matthias Cowley his

2571
02:41:03,960 --> 02:41:09,480
testimony on during his trial
that George Q Cannon gave him

2572
02:41:09,480 --> 02:41:13,000
the authority and got him as his
go to.

2573
02:41:13,600 --> 02:41:15,920
For all the marriages that were
performed the last few years of

2574
02:41:16,520 --> 02:41:20,720
of Cannon's life, you know he
performed 40, at least 45 plural

2575
02:41:20,720 --> 02:41:22,480
marriages in a span of three
years.

2576
02:41:22,480 --> 02:41:29,040
That we know of Holy cow that is
almost one plural marriage a

2577
02:41:29,040 --> 02:41:30,520
month.
I was.

2578
02:41:30,960 --> 02:41:34,680
I was doing the math in my head
here, yeah, 52 weeks in a year,

2579
02:41:35,240 --> 02:41:37,760
last three years of his life.
He's going to town.

2580
02:41:38,560 --> 02:41:41,200
It's more It's more than one
month because three years is 36

2581
02:41:41,200 --> 02:41:43,600
months. 45 marriages.
Yeah.

2582
02:41:43,920 --> 02:41:46,760
Holy cow.
Whoo, he's busy.

2583
02:41:46,920 --> 02:41:51,320
So that was Cannon and Cowley
May 10th, 1911.

2584
02:41:52,480 --> 02:41:56,320
Matthias Cowley during his trial
tells them I was told to keep my

2585
02:41:56,320 --> 02:42:00,240
own counsel and was severely
censured one time by Brother

2586
02:42:00,240 --> 02:42:04,120
George Q Cannon for consulting
someone else, meaning someone

2587
02:42:04,120 --> 02:42:07,000
else other than him for
regarding a certain marriage.

2588
02:42:07,360 --> 02:42:11,480
Brother Penrose told me once in
the City of Mexico that he had

2589
02:42:11,480 --> 02:42:15,280
written the manifesto and it was
gotten up so that it did not

2590
02:42:15,280 --> 02:42:17,560
mean anything.
And President Joseph F Smith

2591
02:42:17,560 --> 02:42:21,280
told me the same.
I mentioned these things only to

2592
02:42:21,280 --> 02:42:23,760
show the training I have had
from those over me.

2593
02:42:24,160 --> 02:42:27,000
So Callie tells the Quorum of
the 12 in his trial.

2594
02:42:27,840 --> 02:42:29,560
Penrose told me he wrote the
manifesto.

2595
02:42:29,800 --> 02:42:32,800
We know that's true because
George Reynolds told them the

2596
02:42:32,800 --> 02:42:35,560
Senate during the Reed Smoot
hearings that he and Charles

2597
02:42:35,560 --> 02:42:38,720
Penrose and Franklin S Richards
wrote the manifesto.

2598
02:42:39,800 --> 02:42:42,560
But also, we know from the
history that President Smith

2599
02:42:42,560 --> 02:42:46,440
never believes the manifesto was
a revelation abolishing plural

2600
02:42:46,440 --> 02:42:49,120
marriage.
And he said as much in a meeting

2601
02:42:49,320 --> 02:42:54,480
of the form of the 12 in 1891.
Man, I mean, it's like at the

2602
02:42:54,480 --> 02:42:56,880
end, the smoking gun is found,
right?

2603
02:42:57,280 --> 02:43:01,240
We, we know who's responsible.
We know who continues to

2604
02:43:01,240 --> 02:43:03,400
authorize it.
There's no doubts.

2605
02:43:03,560 --> 02:43:06,920
Absolutely, I agree.
One thing also they asked him

2606
02:43:06,920 --> 02:43:10,560
about a certain marriage.
That was that they found out was

2607
02:43:10,560 --> 02:43:14,600
performed for a Peter K Lemon
Junior, but they couldn't find

2608
02:43:14,600 --> 02:43:19,800
out who performed the marriage.
He didn't know or maybe he did,

2609
02:43:20,040 --> 02:43:23,080
I don't know.
He denied knowing who did it and

2610
02:43:23,080 --> 02:43:26,600
they were.
They were married sometime

2611
02:43:26,920 --> 02:43:31,440
obviously before May of 1911 and
it was performed in Centerville

2612
02:43:31,440 --> 02:43:36,440
by John W Wooley who admitted it
to the apostles when he was

2613
02:43:36,520 --> 02:43:39,000
excommunicated a few years down
the line.

2614
02:43:40,200 --> 02:43:43,720
Also around this time period,
Judd Judson Tolman has been

2615
02:43:43,720 --> 02:43:48,600
excommunicated already, but he
gets brought back into meetings.

2616
02:43:50,800 --> 02:43:59,280
On January 12th, 1912, Judson
Tolman signs an affidavit saying

2617
02:43:59,560 --> 02:44:05,640
I the undersigned Judson Tolman.
So by these present confess and

2618
02:44:05,640 --> 02:44:08,920
acknowledge in all sincerity and
humility that since the first

2619
02:44:08,920 --> 02:44:12,760
part of the year 19 O four I
have married.

2620
02:44:13,240 --> 02:44:16,800
I have had married to me two
women by Bishop Daniel Muir.

2621
02:44:17,200 --> 02:44:19,320
That I have had at.
Different times and places

2622
02:44:19,320 --> 02:44:25,760
Married 18 couples as follows.
Holy Cow, Bishop Daniel 8.

2623
02:44:26,240 --> 02:44:31,800
Bishop Daniel Muir, James A
Eldridge, Samuel Howard, Alpha J

2624
02:44:31,800 --> 02:44:34,840
Higgs, Henry S Tanner with two
women.

2625
02:44:35,240 --> 02:44:42,120
Charles Waldenden, Israel
Barlow, the third A brother

2626
02:44:42,120 --> 02:44:48,160
Evans, Joseph W Musser, a
brother Jess to two women.

2627
02:44:49,000 --> 02:44:53,040
Doctor Donald A McGregor,
Brother Simmons, a brother

2628
02:44:53,040 --> 02:44:57,560
Gamble, a brother Merrill, and a
brother Wells, and a brother

2629
02:44:57,560 --> 02:45:01,880
Christensen in 1910, all of whom
were recommended to me, my

2630
02:45:01,880 --> 02:45:05,800
brothers Matthias F Cowley,
Henry S Tanner, or Nathan Clark.

2631
02:45:06,280 --> 02:45:09,360
When I was investigated on the
question of marrying these

2632
02:45:09,360 --> 02:45:13,120
parties, I deliberately lied to
the Council of the 12 Apostles

2633
02:45:13,120 --> 02:45:15,800
and thus deceive them.
Later, when I was again given a

2634
02:45:15,800 --> 02:45:19,440
hearing, I acknowledged to
marry, but again willfully lied

2635
02:45:19,440 --> 02:45:23,080
to the council by telling them.
I performed all those marriages

2636
02:45:23,080 --> 02:45:26,840
before the declaration of Joseph
F Smith of April 19, O 4.

2637
02:45:27,320 --> 02:45:31,320
When they were all performed
after that date, all these

2638
02:45:31,320 --> 02:45:34,120
pretended marriages were done
without any right or authority

2639
02:45:34,120 --> 02:45:37,800
under the law of God or man.
For all these great sins I do

2640
02:45:37,800 --> 02:45:40,280
now humble myself before God,
and ask his forgiveness and

2641
02:45:40,280 --> 02:45:43,160
mercy, and also for the
forgiveness of my brethren, whom

2642
02:45:43,200 --> 02:45:46,600
I so wickedly deceived.
I make this confession and

2643
02:45:46,600 --> 02:45:50,280
acknowledgement of my own free
will, that my conscience may be

2644
02:45:50,280 --> 02:45:55,040
free, for I have stood condemned
before before it, since my first

2645
02:45:55,040 --> 02:46:00,200
appearance before the Council.
I wish all my brethren who have

2646
02:46:00,200 --> 02:46:03,440
been sinners with me would do as
I have done and obtain

2647
02:46:03,440 --> 02:46:06,240
forgiveness.
And it's signed Johnson, Tolman

2648
02:46:06,240 --> 02:46:09,640
and Jason Tolman, David Tolman
and Joseph Hiram Grant.

2649
02:46:11,480 --> 02:46:14,040
Wait, wait, wait, why would.
OK.

2650
02:46:15,280 --> 02:46:20,080
Why would Tolman do this?
Because he's already X, right?

2651
02:46:20,080 --> 02:46:21,800
I mean.
Sure.

2652
02:46:22,640 --> 02:46:24,440
What?
What's the motivation here?

2653
02:46:24,440 --> 02:46:26,240
Is he trying to get back into
the church?

2654
02:46:26,240 --> 02:46:29,560
What's What's going on?
He was petitioning for re

2655
02:46:29,560 --> 02:46:36,280
baptism back into the church at
this point, Absolutely in where

2656
02:46:36,280 --> 02:46:40,760
he says that he lied.
The first defense he made, which

2657
02:46:40,760 --> 02:46:44,160
I believe I have on my phone, if
I can pull that up, I don't have

2658
02:46:44,160 --> 02:46:48,600
it on my computer, but I think I
have that in front of me, he

2659
02:46:48,920 --> 02:46:52,960
told The 12.
I believe that Mariner Merrill

2660
02:46:52,960 --> 02:46:55,040
gave him the authority the for
the end.

2661
02:46:55,040 --> 02:47:00,120
So yeah, just like Israel Barlow
tried to put the put the

2662
02:47:00,120 --> 02:47:02,440
responsibility in the weight
back on Abraham alone.

2663
02:47:02,440 --> 02:47:04,240
Woodruff.
Right, You know.

2664
02:47:05,080 --> 02:47:09,960
Judson Tolman was counseled, I
believe, by Henry Tanner, who

2665
02:47:09,960 --> 02:47:16,120
was a lawyer, to put the burden
on a Mariner Merrill, who was

2666
02:47:16,120 --> 02:47:18,520
dead because Mariner Merrill
can't be tried.

2667
02:47:18,960 --> 02:47:22,240
Put it on, put it on a dead man
and and call it good essential,

2668
02:47:22,240 --> 02:47:23,400
yeah.
Yeah.

2669
02:47:23,400 --> 02:47:25,120
And so that's the thing that he
lied about.

2670
02:47:25,120 --> 02:47:29,040
But I definitely think the rest
of this was just an attempt to

2671
02:47:29,040 --> 02:47:31,600
get into the church.
I don't think he really

2672
02:47:31,600 --> 02:47:35,400
regretted it.
And like we've we've seen the

2673
02:47:35,400 --> 02:47:41,480
evidence points that there was a
Commission of authority and him

2674
02:47:41,480 --> 02:47:44,080
not admitting to who I really
was.

2675
02:47:44,120 --> 02:47:46,400
You know, he admits that he lied
about Brother Meryl

2676
02:47:47,440 --> 02:47:51,320
commissioning him, but I think
he really was protecting Joseph

2677
02:47:51,320 --> 02:47:53,400
F Smith.
Because remember, half half the

2678
02:47:53,400 --> 02:47:56,760
people that Judson Tolman
married never got cut off the

2679
02:47:56,760 --> 02:48:02,800
church, you know?
Oh yeah, I mean, I get it.

2680
02:48:03,440 --> 02:48:06,480
I'm a little disappointed in
Tolman that he went this route.

2681
02:48:07,160 --> 02:48:10,280
Not sure I I'm a little, I'm a
little bummed out.

2682
02:48:11,600 --> 02:48:13,840
But what it is, what it is,
right?

2683
02:48:13,840 --> 02:48:18,880
And I can't judge what what his
intent was or or anything like

2684
02:48:18,880 --> 02:48:21,400
that.
It just seems, I mean, you've

2685
02:48:21,400 --> 02:48:23,880
already been axed, right?
I mean, you're you're done,

2686
02:48:23,880 --> 02:48:28,000
essentially.
And it wouldn't be too much

2687
02:48:28,000 --> 02:48:32,960
longer before we'd start seeing
a leap from proto fundamentalism

2688
02:48:32,960 --> 02:48:37,720
to full on fundamentalism in in
short order.

2689
02:48:38,320 --> 02:48:40,400
It's very true.
He's not gonna live that long.

2690
02:48:40,400 --> 02:48:45,800
I mean, he was already 79, I
think, in 1906, so Tolman

2691
02:48:45,800 --> 02:48:51,480
wouldn't live to see that day.
But I I definitely don't think

2692
02:48:52,520 --> 02:48:56,600
that that admission was done in
any way, shape or form other

2693
02:48:56,600 --> 02:48:59,640
than to try to get back on the
church membership records before

2694
02:48:59,640 --> 02:49:01,200
he died.
OK.

2695
02:49:02,360 --> 02:49:05,800
All right.
And and to do and doing it in a

2696
02:49:05,800 --> 02:49:10,440
way to protect Joseph F Smith as
we've discussed because all

2697
02:49:11,160 --> 02:49:14,200
signs kind of point to him being
involved.

2698
02:49:14,240 --> 02:49:18,200
With the two right.
And like we said, Joseph Muster

2699
02:49:18,320 --> 02:49:20,400
wasn't excommunicated from
Tolman's marriages.

2700
02:49:20,400 --> 02:49:25,680
Henry Tanner wasn't.
James A Eldridge wasn't.

2701
02:49:25,680 --> 02:49:27,840
And there was another one, that
which we've already mentioned.

2702
02:49:27,840 --> 02:49:34,040
Let me see if I can find more on
Tolman from my phone.

2703
02:49:34,040 --> 02:49:37,960
Maybe it's not Tolman.
I might just have to read.

2704
02:49:38,120 --> 02:49:42,080
We might come back to that.
Hold on, four days later

2705
02:49:43,560 --> 02:49:46,960
President Lyman in a member in a
meeting of the form of the 12

2706
02:49:46,960 --> 02:49:50,320
says We have learned the first
marriage he was connected with

2707
02:49:50,320 --> 02:49:53,560
was when Bishop Daniel Muir was
married to a wife, married a

2708
02:49:53,560 --> 02:49:56,040
wife to him.
Brother Tolman married the

2709
02:49:56,040 --> 02:50:00,240
Williams woman first the 1st in
1904 and the next in 1906.

2710
02:50:01,000 --> 02:50:03,640
That's actually not sure they
were both done in 1906, but he

2711
02:50:03,640 --> 02:50:06,200
placed the marriage back further
to kind of protect himself.

2712
02:50:06,440 --> 02:50:09,120
Gotcha.
The 1st in February was a woman

2713
02:50:09,120 --> 02:50:12,840
by the name of Laxman.
Bishop Muir was not the Bishop

2714
02:50:12,840 --> 02:50:15,240
of my ward Joseph Hiram Grant
said.

2715
02:50:15,240 --> 02:50:20,480
It was 19 O 19 O one or nineteen
O 2 that Brother Tolman came to

2716
02:50:20,480 --> 02:50:22,800
him and made the statement about
Sister Babbitt.

2717
02:50:24,280 --> 02:50:26,920
Brother Tolman said Sister
Babbitt is sealed to brother of

2718
02:50:26,920 --> 02:50:29,320
George Teasdale.
He was dead.

2719
02:50:29,320 --> 02:50:33,840
But we we love him anyways.
We he was not quite clear

2720
02:50:33,840 --> 02:50:36,760
whether he was married before or
after Brother Muir.

2721
02:50:39,000 --> 02:50:41,720
There's a historical note that I
have here that Brother Daniel

2722
02:50:41,720 --> 02:50:44,280
Meaver appeared at the same
meeting and said that he had

2723
02:50:44,280 --> 02:50:50,160
married his wife in in 19 O3 and
denied performing marriages for

2724
02:50:50,160 --> 02:50:56,160
Tolman, which is also a lie.
But he never got, but he never

2725
02:50:56,160 --> 02:50:57,720
got excommunicated.
For it either.

2726
02:50:59,400 --> 02:51:01,240
George F Richards writes in his
journal.

2727
02:51:01,240 --> 02:51:04,080
I met with President Francis and
Wyman and Joseph Fielding Smith

2728
02:51:04,080 --> 02:51:08,040
Junior and James E Tallmadge and
heard President Joseph H Grant

2729
02:51:08,040 --> 02:51:12,720
report on Judson Tulman, and
Daniel and Daniel Muir meet this

2730
02:51:12,720 --> 02:51:15,760
morning.
There are many developments in

2731
02:51:15,760 --> 02:51:18,560
our investigations of a
startling and astonishing

2732
02:51:18,560 --> 02:51:20,960
character which I do not record
in my journal.

2733
02:51:21,320 --> 02:51:24,560
Most of the proceedings of our
investigations are taken in

2734
02:51:24,560 --> 02:51:28,360
shorthand and transcribed and
are kept for a future reference.

2735
02:51:30,320 --> 02:51:34,400
So that So what?
If so, this is already after

2736
02:51:34,400 --> 02:51:38,280
Taylor's been excommunicated.
What if that whole thing that we

2737
02:51:38,280 --> 02:51:43,160
just read was a gloss the cover
up that to tell Tolman if you

2738
02:51:43,160 --> 02:51:45,840
want any shot of being back in
the church before you die, you

2739
02:51:45,840 --> 02:51:47,400
need to sign this affidavit.
That's.

2740
02:51:47,400 --> 02:51:51,080
Kind of where I was thinking.
That reads this way, while the

2741
02:51:51,080 --> 02:51:53,280
truth is that George F Richards
is saying that all this

2742
02:51:53,280 --> 02:51:56,360
astonishing and startling stuff
is coming out which we can't

2743
02:51:56,360 --> 02:51:57,600
record.
Yeah.

2744
02:51:58,280 --> 02:52:00,800
Yeah, yeah.
No, they had.

2745
02:52:01,120 --> 02:52:02,920
They had him on the ropes,
right?

2746
02:52:03,240 --> 02:52:07,240
Tolman wants back in the church
before he dies, right?

2747
02:52:07,240 --> 02:52:15,400
And then Holman spills his guts.
And at that point, there's too

2748
02:52:15,400 --> 02:52:19,120
much there that they don't
record right, that they're like,

2749
02:52:19,360 --> 02:52:24,000
oh crap, if this gets out, we
got some serious problems,

2750
02:52:24,720 --> 02:52:29,520
right?
And so on this note also May

2751
02:52:29,520 --> 02:52:34,520
1st, 1912, on the heels of all
this information, our boy Joseph

2752
02:52:34,520 --> 02:52:39,760
E Robinson writes in his diary,
quote, he could not talk at all

2753
02:52:39,760 --> 02:52:44,200
to Francis M Lyman, President of
the 12, who had been especially

2754
02:52:44,200 --> 02:52:47,600
active in hunting down certain
cases of new polygamy, but that

2755
02:52:47,600 --> 02:52:52,040
he and Joseph F Smith and
President Lund understood one

2756
02:52:52,040 --> 02:52:58,160
another.
Read that one more time for me.

2757
02:52:58,800 --> 02:53:03,040
I wanna make sure I got that.
Joseph E Robinson writes, Quote

2758
02:53:03,160 --> 02:53:06,840
He could not talk at all to
Francis M Lyman, Presidents of

2759
02:53:06,840 --> 02:53:08,880
the Quorum of the 12.
Who had been?

2760
02:53:08,880 --> 02:53:12,440
Especially active in hunting
down certain cases of new

2761
02:53:12,440 --> 02:53:17,320
polygamy, etcetera, but that he,
Joseph F Smith, and President

2762
02:53:17,320 --> 02:53:19,880
Lund understood one another.
So I'm gonna.

2763
02:53:20,720 --> 02:53:22,640
I'm gonna see if I understand
this correctly.

2764
02:53:23,160 --> 02:53:26,520
Forgive me, I'm slow.
Is he saying that Joseph S Smith

2765
02:53:26,520 --> 02:53:28,680
couldn't talk to Lyman?
Yes.

2766
02:53:28,960 --> 02:53:34,080
And But that first counselor,
Lund and Joseph Smith, Joseph S

2767
02:53:34,080 --> 02:53:35,920
Smith understood each other?
Yep.

2768
02:53:35,960 --> 02:53:38,640
Correct in.
Conjunction with Robinson, Yes.

2769
02:53:39,120 --> 02:53:42,640
Yeah, mutual understanding.
Oh, holy cow.

2770
02:53:45,600 --> 02:53:48,360
And like I pointed out a million
times already, Robinson went to

2771
02:53:48,360 --> 02:53:51,280
Cali to get the 1886 revelation,
which they got from.

2772
02:53:51,280 --> 02:53:53,360
From from John W Taylor's
brother-in-law.

2773
02:53:54,400 --> 02:53:57,520
Yeah.
Robinson told eight members of

2774
02:53:57,520 --> 02:54:00,840
the Formula 12 that John Taylor
died for this principle.

2775
02:54:01,440 --> 02:54:04,440
And that authority has been
given.

2776
02:54:04,440 --> 02:54:09,120
That's never been revoked.
He's helping Rodger Clawson live

2777
02:54:09,120 --> 02:54:12,720
with his plural wife in hotel
rooms in in California.

2778
02:54:13,120 --> 02:54:15,200
Right.
You know, he's doing all the

2779
02:54:15,200 --> 02:54:21,920
legwork, you know?
Oh man, this, this just well,

2780
02:54:21,920 --> 02:54:24,400
and the other thing I think it
does show, I think it does

2781
02:54:24,400 --> 02:54:30,080
cement that at this point, the
office of the First Presidency

2782
02:54:30,080 --> 02:54:35,560
of the Church and the Quorum of
the 12 under the direction of

2783
02:54:35,800 --> 02:54:38,880
Francis Lyman are completely at
odds.

2784
02:54:40,680 --> 02:54:45,840
They're they're essentially
functioning AS2 separate

2785
02:54:46,040 --> 02:54:49,360
governing bodies with different
agendas.

2786
02:54:50,320 --> 02:54:54,160
That's what it seems like.
I don't know what John Winder

2787
02:54:54,160 --> 02:54:55,920
is.
A is the other counselor in the

2788
02:54:55,920 --> 02:54:59,360
First Presidency at this point.
I know he was involved with

2789
02:54:59,360 --> 02:55:05,160
Legal what?
I don't believe he performed any

2790
02:55:05,160 --> 02:55:07,800
plural ceilings.
But if I remember correctly,

2791
02:55:07,800 --> 02:55:13,520
what he did do was he officiated
as a justice of the peace for

2792
02:55:13,520 --> 02:55:16,640
people who were in a plural
situation, that once the first

2793
02:55:16,640 --> 02:55:22,600
wife died, he married OK wife
legally to her husband.

2794
02:55:23,040 --> 02:55:24,120
Gotcha.
Gotcha.

2795
02:55:24,120 --> 02:55:24,280
He.
He.

2796
02:55:24,720 --> 02:55:29,840
Did one or two of those.
But in addition, in relation to

2797
02:55:29,840 --> 02:55:32,320
what we just read about Joseph
Robinson, this is interesting,

2798
02:55:32,320 --> 02:55:37,880
which supports your comments.
Quinn says that in relation to

2799
02:55:37,880 --> 02:55:41,720
this, beginning in October of
19, O Four First Counselor

2800
02:55:41,720 --> 02:55:46,160
Anthony H Lund had acted as a go
between for letters to Apostle

2801
02:55:46,160 --> 02:55:49,920
Roger Clausen in care of the
Presidency's office from the

2802
02:55:49,920 --> 02:55:51,560
plural wife.
Clausen married four months

2803
02:55:51,560 --> 02:55:55,320
after the Second Manifesto.
Post Manifesto polygamist Joseph

2804
02:55:55,320 --> 02:55:58,800
E Robinson was not released as a
mission president until after

2805
02:55:58,800 --> 02:56:03,640
Joseph F Smith died, despite
apostle Francis M Lyman

2806
02:56:03,640 --> 02:56:06,520
repeatingly asking Smith to drop
him.

2807
02:56:10,640 --> 02:56:12,840
The fallout.
From This is Massive.

2808
02:56:13,000 --> 02:56:15,600
Yeah.
We we are getting now a look

2809
02:56:15,600 --> 02:56:21,520
inside inside of of leadership
on both on both fronts, the the

2810
02:56:21,520 --> 02:56:23,840
First Presidency as well as the
quorum of the 12.

2811
02:56:24,040 --> 02:56:31,880
That is absolutely breathtaking
in scope because what we find is

2812
02:56:31,880 --> 02:56:35,280
not what's purported, that
there's always unity, that the

2813
02:56:35,280 --> 02:56:38,880
First Presidency is marching
orders and the 12 carries it

2814
02:56:38,880 --> 02:56:40,520
out.
Oh no, I'm.

2815
02:56:42,320 --> 02:56:44,080
Sorry, yeah.
No, I mean, that's the image

2816
02:56:44,080 --> 02:56:48,280
that's portrayed.
So, yeah, no, no, no way.

2817
02:56:48,280 --> 02:56:49,680
I don't, I don't even think
today.

2818
02:56:49,920 --> 02:56:52,840
No way.
How much longer does Joseph F

2819
02:56:52,840 --> 02:56:56,920
Smith live after the
excommunication of John W

2820
02:56:56,920 --> 02:56:58,560
Taylor?
Seven years.

2821
02:56:59,080 --> 02:57:12,520
OK.
On March 21st, 1913, Local 70s

2822
02:57:12,520 --> 02:57:17,360
Forum Secretary and Salt Lake
Temple Square Missionary Nathan

2823
02:57:17,360 --> 02:57:23,920
G Clark marries his second wife
Cleo Afton Call in the Salt Lake

2824
02:57:23,920 --> 02:57:31,680
Temple by John W Woolley.
Oh, so Woolley doesn't doesn't

2825
02:57:31,680 --> 02:57:34,280
kind of really go on the down
low a whole bunch, right?

2826
02:57:34,280 --> 02:57:39,280
I mean, he's sealing a second
wife inside the Salt Lake

2827
02:57:39,280 --> 02:57:41,040
Temple, Yeah.
And he's he was.

2828
02:57:41,200 --> 02:57:45,040
He was a temple worker at this
point, set apart as a temple

2829
02:57:45,040 --> 02:57:51,760
worker I believe, and so he had
access to do that, I guess.

2830
02:57:53,120 --> 02:57:58,560
Another connection to John W
Taylor with this though is not

2831
02:57:58,560 --> 02:58:03,360
only did Nathan Clark try to not
not only was Nathan Clark

2832
02:58:03,600 --> 02:58:08,760
neighbors to John W Taylor in
Farmington, not only did he, you

2833
02:58:08,760 --> 02:58:11,640
know, express interest in
courting John W Taylor's

2834
02:58:11,640 --> 02:58:14,960
daughter Alta.
Not only did he personally help

2835
02:58:15,000 --> 02:58:18,400
John W Taylor move his families
to Provo and establish their

2836
02:58:18,400 --> 02:58:21,600
homesteads down there.
After John W Taylor was moved

2837
02:58:21,840 --> 02:58:27,280
removed from the form of the 12
he his second wife is Cleo Afton

2838
02:58:27,280 --> 02:58:31,440
Call who is the daughter of
Anson be Call from Mexico who

2839
02:58:31,440 --> 02:58:35,360
had that vision.
If you remember where John W

2840
02:58:35,360 --> 02:58:38,880
Taylor was revealed to him to be
the the keeper of that book of

2841
02:58:38,880 --> 02:58:41,120
life.
Yeah, that's right.

2842
02:58:42,400 --> 02:58:44,440
Absolutely.
I forgot about that.

2843
02:58:45,160 --> 02:58:50,160
And so Nathan Clark marries
Anson B, calls daughter Cleo.

2844
02:58:52,000 --> 02:58:55,520
Which I just blew my mind when I
when I found that out.

2845
02:58:55,760 --> 02:59:00,200
Yeah, which did.
That just shows me that and that

2846
02:59:00,520 --> 02:59:02,880
John W Taylor was pulling those
strings still with his

2847
02:59:02,880 --> 02:59:04,640
relationship with.
Absolutely.

2848
02:59:04,960 --> 02:59:08,160
Clark, but with also with Anne,
with his close relationship with

2849
02:59:08,200 --> 02:59:11,920
Anson B.
Call, who he helped enter into

2850
02:59:11,920 --> 02:59:16,560
the principal in Mexico.
Yeah, man.

2851
02:59:16,880 --> 02:59:19,120
So what What the?
Go ahead, it's.

2852
02:59:19,120 --> 02:59:21,440
Like this.
This is like the retroactive

2853
02:59:22,120 --> 02:59:24,800
evidence I have for why I really
think Nathan Clark's

2854
02:59:24,800 --> 02:59:27,160
recommendations to Tolman were
Taylors.

2855
02:59:27,160 --> 02:59:31,640
John W Taylor's.
Yeah, yeah, all those, all those

2856
02:59:31,640 --> 02:59:35,760
things.
Man, So what was your what?

2857
02:59:35,760 --> 02:59:37,400
What?
What's happening with Taylor

2858
02:59:37,400 --> 02:59:39,760
after this after he's been
excommunicated?

2859
02:59:41,880 --> 02:59:44,320
Tradition states that he's
recommending people to John

2860
02:59:44,320 --> 02:59:46,560
Wooley to get married, which
that stands to reason with what

2861
02:59:46,560 --> 02:59:50,520
we just read.
But ultimately he just, he had

2862
02:59:50,520 --> 02:59:57,000
some businesses his family was
involved with, you know, some

2863
02:59:57,080 --> 03:00:01,760
you know, like, I don't know.
Their farming fruit, fruit,

2864
03:00:02,560 --> 03:00:05,920
fruit and produce kind of stuff,
Farmer, farmers market type

2865
03:00:05,920 --> 03:00:08,120
stuff.
I guess they made quite a bit

2866
03:00:08,120 --> 03:00:09,440
of.
I think they made a fairly

2867
03:00:09,440 --> 03:00:12,160
decent doing that.
It was a whole family enterprise

2868
03:00:12,160 --> 03:00:14,160
with all the different plural
families he had down there.

2869
03:00:14,160 --> 03:00:19,040
He had adjoining farms that he
offers wives.

2870
03:00:20,200 --> 03:00:24,160
And then what about?
Do we have any record how he was

2871
03:00:24,160 --> 03:00:26,400
received by others in the
community?

2872
03:00:26,840 --> 03:00:30,560
Other Mormons?
Did it have a chilling effect on

2873
03:00:30,560 --> 03:00:35,720
his standing in the community?
Did people still 'cause, as we

2874
03:00:35,720 --> 03:00:41,480
discussed about Joseph Musser,
even after his excommunication,

2875
03:00:41,480 --> 03:00:45,120
he's still invited to sit on the
stand in in like conferences,

2876
03:00:45,760 --> 03:00:48,400
right?
There's nothing I've seen that

2877
03:00:48,600 --> 03:00:51,320
him as a hero.
In fact, they he told them in

2878
03:00:51,320 --> 03:00:54,600
the form of the 12 that I rarely
go to church because when I go

2879
03:00:54,600 --> 03:00:58,720
there I'm asked to speak, you
know, and stuff like that, you

2880
03:00:58,720 --> 03:01:01,280
know.
OK, all right.

2881
03:01:01,280 --> 03:01:04,120
So he's he's.
Kind of almost a folk hero at.

2882
03:01:04,120 --> 03:01:06,040
This point?
Yeah, living.

2883
03:01:06,240 --> 03:01:10,320
Living folk, hero.
On the heels of this, we're

2884
03:01:10,320 --> 03:01:14,200
getting into into 1914.
January 23rd.

2885
03:01:16,640 --> 03:01:18,760
Something I haven't heard talked
about hardly.

2886
03:01:18,840 --> 03:01:21,720
I mean, actually I don't even
think ever until I did research

2887
03:01:21,720 --> 03:01:25,720
on this for myself.
But. 1914 Matthias Cali gets

2888
03:01:25,720 --> 03:01:31,800
drugged back into a trial for a
a second time and but he's

2889
03:01:32,160 --> 03:01:34,400
already he's already been exed,
right?

2890
03:01:34,920 --> 03:01:36,800
He never got excommunicated.
He was.

2891
03:01:37,000 --> 03:01:38,400
He was.
Disfellowshipped.

2892
03:01:38,800 --> 03:01:40,920
And for I.
Think forbidden from taking the

2893
03:01:40,920 --> 03:01:44,520
sacrament and.
Exercising priesthood OK, all

2894
03:01:44,520 --> 03:01:47,280
right.
OK, so he gets struck back in.

2895
03:01:47,960 --> 03:01:50,040
Yeah, he gets struck.
He gets struck back into.

2896
03:01:50,080 --> 03:01:53,880
In 1914, because Francis Lyman
thinks that he's still helping

2897
03:01:53,880 --> 03:01:57,400
people enter into the principal.
Lyman is relentless.

2898
03:01:57,760 --> 03:01:59,760
Yeah.
Holy cow.

2899
03:02:00,360 --> 03:02:02,320
So.
So I was wrong.

2900
03:02:02,320 --> 03:02:04,800
Let me.
Amend John Wooley was not

2901
03:02:04,800 --> 03:02:07,240
excommunicated in October of
1914, he.

2902
03:02:07,240 --> 03:02:10,160
Was.
Excommunicated March 30th, 1914

2903
03:02:10,640 --> 03:02:15,240
OK, well, this is the point
we're getting to, Heber J.

2904
03:02:15,240 --> 03:02:18,680
Grant writes in his diary.
My office till 10, then meeting

2905
03:02:18,680 --> 03:02:22,040
at the Bishops Building, the
cases of John W Wooley and

2906
03:02:22,040 --> 03:02:25,480
Matthias Cowley considered so
these things are going on in

2907
03:02:25,480 --> 03:02:27,520
conjunction with each other.
Ten of the 12.

2908
03:02:28,840 --> 03:02:31,360
Joseph H Grant and George J.
Cannon.

2909
03:02:31,360 --> 03:02:34,480
Present After lunch, only
members of the Our Council were

2910
03:02:34,480 --> 03:02:36,960
present.
All spoke and it was voted to

2911
03:02:36,960 --> 03:02:40,280
cut Brother Wooley off.
The church concluded that we

2912
03:02:40,280 --> 03:02:43,440
needed a little bit more
evidence in Brother Matthias

2913
03:02:43,440 --> 03:02:47,120
Cowley's case.
So he he gets put on the hot

2914
03:02:47,120 --> 03:02:50,600
seat again, and they start
asking him questions about how

2915
03:02:50,600 --> 03:02:52,320
he's involved with John W
Wooley's plural.

2916
03:02:52,320 --> 03:02:54,280
Marriages.
But.

2917
03:02:54,480 --> 03:02:55,640
They can't.
Find enough.

2918
03:02:55,800 --> 03:02:59,280
Evidence to excommunicate him,
OK.

2919
03:03:00,120 --> 03:03:02,720
And so I might read.
A bit of those off my phone.

2920
03:03:03,840 --> 03:03:12,760
Let's see on January. 16th John
1914 John Wooley signs an

2921
03:03:12,760 --> 03:03:17,240
affidavit which states
Centreville, Davis County, Utah

2922
03:03:17,240 --> 03:03:21,400
on the 16th day of.
January. 1914 President Francis

2923
03:03:21,400 --> 03:03:24,640
M Lyman and Anthony W Ivans
called at my home and an answer

2924
03:03:24,640 --> 03:03:27,520
to question asked.
I made the following statement

2925
03:03:28,000 --> 03:03:30,720
some months ago.
I met Matthias F Cowley on the

2926
03:03:30,720 --> 03:03:33,840
street and he asked me if I was
familiar with the sealing

2927
03:03:33,840 --> 03:03:35,800
ceremony.
I told him I was.

2928
03:03:36,280 --> 03:03:39,640
He said if any good man come to
you, don't turn them down.

2929
03:03:40,000 --> 03:03:43,360
I believed from that statement
that it was still proper that

2930
03:03:43,360 --> 03:03:46,360
plural marriages be sole alized
and that President Joseph F

2931
03:03:46,360 --> 03:03:48,640
Smith had authorized Callie to
instruct me.

2932
03:03:49,160 --> 03:03:53,160
Since that time, I have married
wives to Nathan G Clark, Joseph

2933
03:03:53,280 --> 03:03:55,520
A.
Silver Reuben G Miller.

2934
03:03:55,920 --> 03:04:00,200
Peter.
Kimball Lemon Senior and the

2935
03:04:00,200 --> 03:04:02,920
ceremony in the case of Miller
was performed at the southeast

2936
03:04:02,920 --> 03:04:05,760
part of Salt Lake, the woman
being a widow whose.

2937
03:04:05,760 --> 03:04:06,640
Name.
I don't know.

2938
03:04:07,280 --> 03:04:09,080
The lemon ceremony was in
Centreville.

2939
03:04:10,600 --> 03:04:13,880
The name of the woman I think
being Johnson, signed John

2940
03:04:13,880 --> 03:04:16,240
Wooley, Francis Lyman and
Witness.

2941
03:04:16,240 --> 03:04:21,880
Anthony W Ivins.
A few days later in Matthias

2942
03:04:21,880 --> 03:04:26,360
Cowley's trial.
Matthias Cowley says Brother.

2943
03:04:26,360 --> 03:04:29,600
John Wooley said to me that he
thought it was all right and

2944
03:04:29,600 --> 03:04:33,400
related to me how President John
Taylor had spent the whole night

2945
03:04:33,400 --> 03:04:37,960
at his place and the president
he had said in the morning that

2946
03:04:37,960 --> 03:04:39,920
the principal would not be done
away with.

2947
03:04:40,240 --> 03:04:43,120
And I told Brother Woolly that I
could have nothing to do with

2948
03:04:43,120 --> 03:04:46,360
it, President Francis and Lyman
said.

2949
03:04:46,440 --> 03:04:49,920
Brother Judson Tolman also
claimed that you had you sent

2950
03:04:49,920 --> 03:04:52,760
men to him.
Cowley says this.

2951
03:04:52,760 --> 03:04:55,200
I never did.
I never sent a man to Brother

2952
03:04:55,200 --> 03:04:58,840
Tolman Matthias Cowley says.
In answer.

2953
03:04:58,840 --> 03:05:02,360
To Brother Huber J.
Grant I deny that I ever asked

2954
03:05:02,360 --> 03:05:04,440
Brother Woolley if he was
familiar with the sealing

2955
03:05:04,440 --> 03:05:05,320
ordinance.
Or.

2956
03:05:05,320 --> 03:05:08,000
That I told him not to turn a
good man down if he came to him.

2957
03:05:08,520 --> 03:05:10,480
Brother Reuben G Miller
explained.

2958
03:05:10,480 --> 03:05:13,280
That Brother Woolley had told
him how abolishing, how the

2959
03:05:13,280 --> 03:05:16,200
abolishing of plural marriage
was being agitated by the legal

2960
03:05:16,200 --> 03:05:19,560
advisors of the Church, and how
President Taylor had spent the

2961
03:05:19,560 --> 03:05:21,800
entire night in pondering over
the question.

2962
03:05:22,120 --> 03:05:25,200
And in the morning came into the
room where Brother Woolley was

2963
03:05:25,680 --> 03:05:28,960
with his face illuminated and
said this principle was not to

2964
03:05:28,960 --> 03:05:31,440
be done away with but to remain
on the earth.

2965
03:05:31,800 --> 03:05:34,320
And this has strengthened
Brother Wooley and believing

2966
03:05:34,320 --> 03:05:36,920
that the practice should be
maintained and also had

2967
03:05:36,920 --> 03:05:40,440
influenced brother Miller.
So we have some really strong

2968
03:05:40,440 --> 03:05:43,320
evidence, not from Lauren
Wooley, but from John Wooley,

2969
03:05:43,320 --> 03:05:45,080
about the 1886 events right
there.

2970
03:05:45,720 --> 03:05:47,560
Yeah.
Yeah.

2971
03:05:49,160 --> 03:05:52,120
And it's it's pretty consistent
with the.

2972
03:05:52,120 --> 03:05:56,440
Account that was given.
And these are official.

2973
03:05:56,440 --> 03:05:58,600
Minutes of the form of the 12
that I was reading from

2974
03:06:02,480 --> 03:06:04,720
official.
The official minutes.

2975
03:06:05,240 --> 03:06:06,160
The official.
Minutes.

2976
03:06:06,800 --> 03:06:07,960
So I don't know what the
unofficial.

2977
03:06:07,960 --> 03:06:12,000
Minutes say, but this?
Wow, what?

2978
03:06:12,080 --> 03:06:14,480
Was it?
Yeah, that's minutes.

2979
03:06:14,480 --> 03:06:20,920
That was the Minutes.
In February of 1914.

2980
03:06:21,480 --> 03:06:25,040
This is Anthony Ivan's diary.
He writes.

2981
03:06:25,720 --> 03:06:30,080
The Brother Francis or he says
John Wooley stated to Brother

2982
03:06:30,080 --> 03:06:31,360
Francis.
M Lyman and.

2983
03:06:31,360 --> 03:06:34,800
Me that Brother Matthias F
Cowley did.

2984
03:06:34,800 --> 03:06:36,920
Say to him in.
Conversation which took place on

2985
03:06:36,920 --> 03:06:40,600
southeast corner of the temple
block that if any good man comes

2986
03:06:40,600 --> 03:06:43,320
to you, don't turn him down.
That was the only thing Callie

2987
03:06:43,320 --> 03:06:46,040
said to him on the subject.
He would not have assumed to

2988
03:06:46,400 --> 03:06:48,840
solemnize a marriage had it not
been for that remark.

2989
03:06:48,840 --> 03:06:51,440
He thought President Joseph F
Smith had authorized Callie to

2990
03:06:51,440 --> 03:06:54,920
speak, could not remember just
when this conversation took

2991
03:06:54,920 --> 03:06:58,360
place, but it was before he
solemnized marriages.

2992
03:06:58,960 --> 03:07:03,680
So we.
Have a case of either Callie or

2993
03:07:03,760 --> 03:07:08,440
Sorry John W Wooley has been
approached by both John W Taylor

2994
03:07:08,440 --> 03:07:16,920
and Matthias Callie or John
Wooley is avoiding the truth

2995
03:07:17,040 --> 03:07:19,360
and.
Giving a calculated answer to.

2996
03:07:20,160 --> 03:07:23,280
Shoulder the burden on Matthias.
Cowley, who's already been?

2997
03:07:25,480 --> 03:07:29,440
You know, dealt with, Yeah.
And protect Joseph F Smith, I'm

2998
03:07:29,440 --> 03:07:32,320
guessing, and protect.
Joseph F Smith, Yep.

2999
03:07:32,680 --> 03:07:35,960
And and see, I have nothing to
back this up, right?

3000
03:07:37,480 --> 03:07:44,600
But I can only imagine that
these guys know that that

3001
03:07:45,080 --> 03:07:49,920
Francis Lyman's gunning for
Joseph F Smith and they.

3002
03:07:49,920 --> 03:07:51,600
Understand the stakes are.
High.

3003
03:07:54,080 --> 03:07:56,800
And that.
They are going.

3004
03:07:56,800 --> 03:07:58,920
To protect it at all costs for
the.

3005
03:07:58,920 --> 03:08:05,320
Sake of the Church, right?
Understanding now that that post

3006
03:08:05,320 --> 03:08:09,560
manifesto polygamy has come to
an end in the LDS Church, let's

3007
03:08:09,560 --> 03:08:13,600
try to preserve what's left.
Do you know the ocony about

3008
03:08:13,640 --> 03:08:17,160
Francis M Lyman's crusade
against polygamy is What's that?

3009
03:08:17,720 --> 03:08:19,200
Do you know what the irony?
Of Francis.

3010
03:08:19,200 --> 03:08:23,600
Lyman's crusade is what's that?
His son, Richard R.

3011
03:08:23,600 --> 03:08:24,840
Lyman when.
He was.

3012
03:08:24,840 --> 03:08:26,240
Made a member of the form of the
12.

3013
03:08:26,680 --> 03:08:32,040
Entered into a polygamous
marriage by solemn by solemn

3014
03:08:32,040 --> 03:08:37,400
Covenant in 1925.
Holy cow, he was the last.

3015
03:08:37,400 --> 03:08:39,400
Apostle.
Who's ever been excommunicated

3016
03:08:39,400 --> 03:08:41,480
from the church, and he was
excommunicated.

3017
03:08:41,880 --> 03:08:45,240
In 1943 when?
Was that the guy that was like

3018
03:08:45,280 --> 03:08:50,960
drug out in his underwear after?
I don't think so there.

3019
03:08:50,960 --> 03:08:54,160
Was there was an apostle?
If I'm not mistaken I'll I'll

3020
03:08:54,160 --> 03:08:57,320
have to look this up.
Give me just a second here.

3021
03:08:58,280 --> 03:09:06,880
There was an apostle who was
doing this about that time, and

3022
03:09:06,880 --> 03:09:08,560
they had the police.
Go and arrest.

3023
03:09:08,560 --> 03:09:10,240
Him for illegal.
Cohabitation.

3024
03:09:10,720 --> 03:09:12,320
And drug him out in his
underwear.

3025
03:09:12,600 --> 03:09:14,080
Yeah, that was it.
That was it.

3026
03:09:14,320 --> 03:09:19,520
OK.
All right, I OK, I was working.

3027
03:09:20,000 --> 03:09:21,560
In the Salt Lake County
recorder.

3028
03:09:21,560 --> 03:09:27,760
'S office and someone, someone
just showed it to me.

3029
03:09:27,840 --> 03:09:29,840
There was just an old newspaper
clipping.

3030
03:09:30,400 --> 03:09:32,840
But sure enough, dude, they perp
locked him.

3031
03:09:33,440 --> 03:09:39,280
I mean, they found out that he
was living this plural marriage.

3032
03:09:40,440 --> 03:09:46,600
His wife knew his first wife.
They sent out spies.

3033
03:09:46,600 --> 03:09:47,920
After him.
Right.

3034
03:09:49,480 --> 03:09:50,640
They did.
They.

3035
03:09:50,640 --> 03:09:51,800
They.
Knew that he was up to

3036
03:09:51,800 --> 03:09:53,720
something.
When?

3037
03:09:53,720 --> 03:09:56,040
When they finally find.
Him and.

3038
03:09:56,920 --> 03:10:00,760
It was a widow, right?
That he'd actually interacted

3039
03:10:00,760 --> 03:10:05,720
with, if I'm not mistaken, even
back when he was a Bishop and

3040
03:10:05,720 --> 03:10:10,480
they they got married and then
sure enough, the spies catch

3041
03:10:10,480 --> 03:10:12,760
him.
Going in there during the night.

3042
03:10:13,600 --> 03:10:16,040
And the church calls the.
Cops.

3043
03:10:16,840 --> 03:10:18,920
Yes, they do.
They perp walk him.

3044
03:10:19,160 --> 03:10:24,400
I mean, they absolutely perp
walk this dude and he's just

3045
03:10:24,400 --> 03:10:27,440
humiliated the.
I was reading up on this

3046
03:10:27,440 --> 03:10:32,080
recently.
The guy who led the raid was a

3047
03:10:32,080 --> 03:10:34,200
former.
Member of his ward when he was

3048
03:10:34,200 --> 03:10:36,200
Bishop.
I if I remember correctly, and

3049
03:10:36,200 --> 03:10:41,440
he said if I had known it was
Richard Lyman I never would have

3050
03:10:41,600 --> 03:10:47,160
entered the house because the
church, the church did not tell

3051
03:10:47,160 --> 03:10:49,920
him that it was an apostle.
Let.

3052
03:10:49,920 --> 03:10:52,280
Alone.
Richard R Lyman in There they

3053
03:10:52,280 --> 03:10:54,400
just.
Said go and deal with it or

3054
03:10:54,400 --> 03:10:56,200
whatever.
I don't even know what probable

3055
03:10:56,200 --> 03:10:58,960
cause they gave to them, but he
he said.

3056
03:10:58,960 --> 03:11:00,520
I would never have entered the
house.

3057
03:11:00,680 --> 03:11:04,600
If I had known it was.
Richard R Lyman and see, this

3058
03:11:04,600 --> 03:11:08,240
goes back to for good and bad,
right?

3059
03:11:08,240 --> 03:11:11,320
I I want to say that there.
Can't be good that comes out of

3060
03:11:11,320 --> 03:11:13,720
this.
But This is why I think that the

3061
03:11:13,720 --> 03:11:16,240
founders were maybe on to
something with the separation of

3062
03:11:16,240 --> 03:11:19,960
church and state until you can
have a full Theo democracy,

3063
03:11:19,960 --> 03:11:22,120
right.
I mean, because you essentially

3064
03:11:22,120 --> 03:11:26,320
get marching orders from church
headquarters, go get him right,

3065
03:11:26,320 --> 03:11:30,520
whoever him is, and they go in
there and they perp, walk this

3066
03:11:30,520 --> 03:11:35,480
guy, right, and absolutely
devastate him and his entire

3067
03:11:35,480 --> 03:11:39,120
family.
And it it was dirty.

3068
03:11:39,280 --> 03:11:43,200
It was so dirty when when I read
about this.

3069
03:11:43,200 --> 03:11:48,200
Oh, I'm glad that you were read
up on it and that you corrected

3070
03:11:48,200 --> 03:11:48,880
me.
That's good.

3071
03:11:50,280 --> 03:11:53,320
So.
Richard R Lyman also has.

3072
03:11:53,480 --> 03:11:55,520
Interactions with Nathan.
Clark later, too.

3073
03:11:55,840 --> 03:11:57,400
Really.
Yeah.

3074
03:11:58,360 --> 03:12:01,640
At least one.
Instance that I'm aware of, boy,

3075
03:12:02,120 --> 03:12:03,480
his old man was.
Pissed.

3076
03:12:03,920 --> 03:12:06,920
Oh yeah, it's just.
So it's wild, dude.

3077
03:12:06,920 --> 03:12:12,200
You couldn't make this up so.
Anthony.

3078
03:12:12,200 --> 03:12:16,800
Ivan's writes on his journal in
March 1st, 1914 in the evening.

3079
03:12:16,800 --> 03:12:20,480
Peter K Lemon.
At called at the hotel I served

3080
03:12:20,480 --> 03:12:23,200
notice on him to appear before
the Council of the 12th and to

3081
03:12:23,200 --> 03:12:27,400
show cause why he should not be
excommunicated for unlawfully

3082
03:12:27,400 --> 03:12:30,520
taking a wife.
He stated to me that Nathan G

3083
03:12:30,520 --> 03:12:34,360
Clark had written him that if he
wished to take a plural wife to

3084
03:12:34,360 --> 03:12:35,720
come to Centerville.
Utah.

3085
03:12:35,720 --> 03:12:39,720
Where he Clark would meet him at
a house two blocks West.

3086
03:12:40,040 --> 03:12:42,440
He followed directions and went
to the House of a young man

3087
03:12:42,440 --> 03:12:45,360
named Woolly and told him what
he come for.

3088
03:12:45,520 --> 03:12:48,320
The young man said that there
would be a man there soon to

3089
03:12:48,320 --> 03:12:52,320
attend to the matter for him,
and later an older man came to

3090
03:12:52,320 --> 03:12:56,320
him and performed the ceremony.
So yeah, probably Lauren and

3091
03:12:56,320 --> 03:13:00,640
John Woolly there, right?
This is interesting too, in that

3092
03:13:00,640 --> 03:13:01,400
conversation.
With.

3093
03:13:01,680 --> 03:13:05,400
Anthony W Ivins.
Peter K Levin.

3094
03:13:05,400 --> 03:13:09,400
Says he had never talked with
Brother Matthias F Cowley on the

3095
03:13:09,400 --> 03:13:12,040
subject.
He he said that he would appear

3096
03:13:12,040 --> 03:13:15,240
before the council and make a
full statement of facts.

3097
03:13:16,040 --> 03:13:20,120
He had met Brother Joseph W
Musser at the Fisher home some

3098
03:13:20,120 --> 03:13:25,400
time ago and he told him that
John Wooley had given the whole

3099
03:13:25,400 --> 03:13:28,520
thing away, that John Wooley had
given it all the way.

3100
03:13:29,600 --> 03:13:33,520
Yeah, but interesting that that
place is Joseph.

3101
03:13:33,520 --> 03:13:36,280
Muster and Jean Wooley into
association.

3102
03:13:36,280 --> 03:13:40,200
With each.
Other as early as whenever that

3103
03:13:40,200 --> 03:13:45,840
marriage took place before 1914,
right before March of 19. 14 for

3104
03:13:45,840 --> 03:13:49,760
sure.
March 30th, 1914.

3105
03:13:49,760 --> 03:13:51,280
From the Minutes.
Of the quorum of the 12.

3106
03:13:51,880 --> 03:13:55,000
The Minutes state Brother John
Wooley stated some time ago that

3107
03:13:55,000 --> 03:13:57,840
he went up to the president's
office to talk with Joseph F

3108
03:13:57,840 --> 03:14:01,120
Smith as he was intending to
take a trip to the Sandwich

3109
03:14:01,120 --> 03:14:04,560
Islands for his health.
President Anthony H London James

3110
03:14:04,560 --> 03:14:06,560
E Town, which were present at
the time.

3111
03:14:06,560 --> 03:14:08,480
The conversation was not very
long.

3112
03:14:09,000 --> 03:14:12,080
As he got up to go, President
Smith asked him what about the

3113
03:14:12,080 --> 03:14:16,040
Joseph Silver case and I told
him about it and he said, didn't

3114
03:14:16,040 --> 03:14:19,280
you think you were doing wrong?
I said I didn't think I was

3115
03:14:19,280 --> 03:14:21,760
doing very wrong at the time.
That's interesting.

3116
03:14:22,080 --> 03:14:26,160
So but James E Town, which was
there, I will just point that

3117
03:14:26,160 --> 03:14:28,440
out.
So I said putting on the show.

3118
03:14:28,760 --> 03:14:31,480
Yep, Yep.
And Talmage was a hater of

3119
03:14:31,480 --> 03:14:34,240
polygamy, if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah, yeah, he was.

3120
03:14:34,320 --> 03:14:35,720
He was definitely tasked a lot
of the.

3121
03:14:35,720 --> 03:14:37,960
Time with dealing with the.
Early.

3122
03:14:37,960 --> 03:14:40,080
Those are these early cases that
we're talking about.

3123
03:14:40,360 --> 03:14:43,640
I don't know if there's any
personal motivation or grudges.

3124
03:14:43,720 --> 03:14:45,440
I I don't know if there was or
not.

3125
03:14:45,440 --> 03:14:47,640
Or if he's just doing his duty
being a good soldier.

3126
03:14:48,880 --> 03:14:52,760
No.
Yeah, let's see what else I got.

3127
03:14:54,360 --> 03:14:55,920
The minutes.
Of April.

3128
03:14:55,920 --> 03:15:01,280
Second states.
That on Monday the. 12 Sat in.

3129
03:15:01,280 --> 03:15:04,200
Council on the cases of Matthias
F Cowley and John W Wooley, but

3130
03:15:04,200 --> 03:15:08,200
failed to bring out evidence
enough to justify the Council in

3131
03:15:08,200 --> 03:15:12,360
taking action against Brother
Cowley, although some things

3132
03:15:12,360 --> 03:15:15,720
went to indicate that he was
responsible for Brother John

3133
03:15:15,720 --> 03:15:18,760
Wooley's operations.
Action was taken against Brother

3134
03:15:18,760 --> 03:15:21,520
Wooley on his own confession and
he was excommunicated from the

3135
03:15:21,520 --> 03:15:24,640
Church, but he wanted to share
the responsibility of his

3136
03:15:24,640 --> 03:15:26,200
transgression with Brother
Cowley.

3137
03:15:26,560 --> 03:15:29,880
Brother Callie denied everything
and was willing to take an oath

3138
03:15:30,200 --> 03:15:33,400
that he had not encouraged
anybody to enter plural marriage

3139
03:15:33,400 --> 03:15:35,920
since action was taken on his
case.

3140
03:15:35,920 --> 03:15:42,480
But I will state both guns are
pointing on Callie's involvement

3141
03:15:42,480 --> 03:15:45,480
from from Johnson and Woolley
saying that.

3142
03:15:46,360 --> 03:15:47,120
He.
Was involved.

3143
03:15:47,240 --> 03:15:49,000
So I'm just, I'm just throwing
it out there.

3144
03:15:49,560 --> 03:15:52,560
So do you think that what's your
opinion there?

3145
03:15:52,560 --> 03:15:54,960
Do you think Callie's just
trying to preserve himself?

3146
03:15:55,360 --> 03:15:57,040
Absolutely.
Absolutely, I do.

3147
03:16:01,880 --> 03:16:02,480
They were.
All.

3148
03:16:02,480 --> 03:16:04,440
In it together that one point
and then when?

3149
03:16:04,440 --> 03:16:07,720
Things got things.
Began to be haunted.

3150
03:16:07,720 --> 03:16:10,880
Down.
There was probably some

3151
03:16:10,880 --> 03:16:17,000
fragmentation in their, you
know, relationships.

3152
03:16:19,440 --> 03:16:27,240
In August of 19. 16 John W
Taylor was baptized by his

3153
03:16:27,240 --> 03:16:31,120
brother Joseph.
No, sorry, His brother, Moses W

3154
03:16:31,360 --> 03:16:34,080
Taylor.
With John.

3155
03:16:34,080 --> 03:16:43,920
M Cannon and others present in
Utah Lake tradition states that

3156
03:16:44,520 --> 03:16:46,800
Matthias Cowley performed the
marriage.

3157
03:16:47,840 --> 03:16:49,440
And that two state presidents
were.

3158
03:16:49,560 --> 03:16:53,920
Were present baptism.
What I say marriage.

3159
03:16:55,560 --> 03:16:57,400
Yes.
Thank you for thank you for

3160
03:16:57,400 --> 03:16:58,760
correcting me.
Yeah.

3161
03:16:58,760 --> 03:17:00,440
Fundamentalist tradition.
States that.

3162
03:17:00,440 --> 03:17:02,960
The RE baptism.
Which was clandestine.

3163
03:17:03,480 --> 03:17:08,560
Was done by Cowley at Utah Lake
with two stake presidents.

3164
03:17:08,880 --> 03:17:14,640
I found in James E Talmage's
diary that the whole situation

3165
03:17:14,640 --> 03:17:21,040
was done by Moses W Taylor who
was told by John M Cannon to re

3166
03:17:21,040 --> 03:17:28,760
baptize John W Taylor and Moses
W Taylor told James E Talmadge.

3167
03:17:29,520 --> 03:17:34,280
That when John M Cannon had.
Gone to If I'm getting this

3168
03:17:34,280 --> 03:17:35,480
right, I'd probably put it in
here.

3169
03:17:35,480 --> 03:17:37,480
Let me just make sure I'm
getting this information right

3170
03:17:37,480 --> 03:17:40,800
I.
Forgot about.

3171
03:17:40,800 --> 03:17:43,680
That.
Can't find it in any case.

3172
03:17:45,040 --> 03:17:47,600
Either.
John M Cannon, OR.

3173
03:17:47,600 --> 03:17:48,800
Moses W.
Taylor.

3174
03:17:48,960 --> 03:17:51,040
Had also.
Gone to Joseph.

3175
03:17:51,040 --> 03:17:53,600
F Smith asking what could be?
Done.

3176
03:17:53,840 --> 03:17:59,840
For John W Taylor, in his case,
and I think it was Moses, Moses

3177
03:17:59,840 --> 03:18:03,120
W Taylor went to Joseph F Smith
and.

3178
03:18:03,120 --> 03:18:06,800
Joseph F.
Smith told Moses W Taylor.

3179
03:18:07,440 --> 03:18:09,240
Do you know what authority you
have?

3180
03:18:10,400 --> 03:18:14,120
And while I cannot, I can tell
you that nothing can be done in

3181
03:18:14,120 --> 03:18:17,400
the church for Brother Taylor.
But then.

3182
03:18:17,400 --> 03:18:20,360
Something along the lines of but
I but I think I don't need to

3183
03:18:20,360 --> 03:18:22,040
tell you what you can do for
your brother.

3184
03:18:22,480 --> 03:18:26,440
You know interesting.
And so they went and performed

3185
03:18:26,440 --> 03:18:30,080
that re baptism which was not
accepted by the Church.

3186
03:18:30,080 --> 03:18:34,640
And was not.
No record was made of it and it

3187
03:18:34,640 --> 03:18:37,400
caused quite the scandal.
In fact, there was public

3188
03:18:38,160 --> 03:18:39,920
announcements.
Made after John.

3189
03:18:39,920 --> 03:18:46,280
W Taylor died regarding this
that addressing rumors because

3190
03:18:46,280 --> 03:18:48,280
rumors had started to circulate
that John W.

3191
03:18:48,280 --> 03:18:51,280
Taylor had been accepted back.
Into the Church before he died

3192
03:18:51,280 --> 03:18:54,440
secretly.
Although fundamentalist

3193
03:18:54,440 --> 03:18:57,240
tradition does state also all
right, I shouldn't say

3194
03:18:57,240 --> 03:19:05,440
fundamentalist Taylor family
tradition states that Joseph F

3195
03:19:05,440 --> 03:19:09,280
Smith delivered temple garments
and robes.

3196
03:19:09,720 --> 03:19:13,720
To.
Nettie Taylor Wooly Taylor to

3197
03:19:13,720 --> 03:19:16,480
bury her husband in at the
funeral, which was a closed

3198
03:19:16,480 --> 03:19:19,360
casket so that he could be
buried in his temple robes.

3199
03:19:20,560 --> 03:19:25,440
Dude.
Like even in death, the poor guy

3200
03:19:25,440 --> 03:19:31,400
can't get.
Get get just some recognition.

3201
03:19:32,360 --> 03:19:36,040
I mean just.
Close the casket right, we don't

3202
03:19:36,040 --> 03:19:37,720
want.
Anyone seeing He's in his temple

3203
03:19:37,720 --> 03:19:40,240
robes.
Yeah, that's tough.

3204
03:19:40,760 --> 03:19:45,320
But on the same on on the other
hand I mean the.

3205
03:19:45,840 --> 03:19:50,040
The cards show that while while
these things couldn't be

3206
03:19:50,040 --> 03:19:54,160
acknowledged, it shows that I I
think it validates Brother

3207
03:19:54,160 --> 03:19:57,200
Taylor, especially in the eyes
of the president of the church.

3208
03:19:57,720 --> 03:19:59,920
Sure it does.
It shows his valiance.

3209
03:19:59,960 --> 03:20:04,360
It shows the belief that Joseph
F Smith and others had.

3210
03:20:04,360 --> 03:20:07,920
That the Lord.
The Lord.

3211
03:20:07,920 --> 03:20:10,320
Understood, John, you know.
What?

3212
03:20:11,120 --> 03:20:14,720
Let's say John W.
Taylor's life and name.

3213
03:20:14,720 --> 03:20:16,600
Is written on the books of the
of the Lamb of.

3214
03:20:16,600 --> 03:20:18,080
God.
And it doesn't need to be on

3215
03:20:18,200 --> 03:20:21,840
them.
The the membership records of

3216
03:20:21,840 --> 03:20:29,800
the church, it again boggles my
mind that that.

3217
03:20:30,920 --> 03:20:32,360
Joseph F You.
Said it was.

3218
03:20:32,360 --> 03:20:34,280
Joseph F Smith, who delivered
it?

3219
03:20:35,280 --> 03:20:36,800
The President of the Church
personally.

3220
03:20:36,800 --> 03:20:37,640
Delivers.
The.

3221
03:20:37,640 --> 03:20:42,840
Garments and the temple robes,
but yet still feels compelled to

3222
03:20:42,840 --> 03:20:45,880
tell his wife.
Nettie, make sure you close that

3223
03:20:45,880 --> 03:20:48,040
casket.
It just smacks.

3224
03:20:48,040 --> 03:20:50,800
Of a man who's not in control?
Yep.

3225
03:20:52,120 --> 03:20:58,400
No, you're absolutely correct,
Fundamentalist tradition states.

3226
03:20:58,640 --> 03:21:01,200
That.
Before John W Taylor died.

3227
03:21:02,480 --> 03:21:07,560
That.
The tradition states that John W

3228
03:21:07,560 --> 03:21:11,040
Taylor met Francis Lyman on the
street shortly before his death

3229
03:21:11,560 --> 03:21:15,480
and informed him, Francis, I am
not going to be here on earth

3230
03:21:15,480 --> 03:21:18,680
much longer, and when I go, I am
going to send for you to stand

3231
03:21:18,680 --> 03:21:21,200
before the great judge and
account for the things you've

3232
03:21:21,200 --> 03:21:27,240
done to me.
And while President, Lyman

3233
03:21:27,240 --> 03:21:29,000
outwardly appeared to be in good
health.

3234
03:21:29,560 --> 03:21:31,800
In that season of his life.
A few weeks.

3235
03:21:31,800 --> 03:21:38,880
Later John died on October 10th,
1916 of cancer and a month

3236
03:21:38,880 --> 03:21:43,600
following it President Lyman
died as well on November 18th,

3237
03:21:43,600 --> 03:21:51,760
1916.
Oh man.

3238
03:21:51,760 --> 03:21:56,920
I wonder what lat crossing over
looked like.

3239
03:21:57,520 --> 03:22:04,120
Yeah, however.
John W Taylor has been RE.

3240
03:22:04,120 --> 03:22:07,640
Added to the membership of the
church and a Reba baptism was

3241
03:22:07,640 --> 03:22:13,040
done by Joseph Fielding Smith,
President Joseph Fielding Smith.

3242
03:22:13,040 --> 03:22:15,080
I don't he was not present to
the church yet.

3243
03:22:15,160 --> 03:22:16,600
It was under.
It was under.

3244
03:22:16,600 --> 03:22:19,960
David O Mckay's.
Presidency and Joe Apostle

3245
03:22:19,960 --> 03:22:24,280
Joseph Fielding Smith
officiated, I believe re

3246
03:22:24,280 --> 03:22:28,440
baptizing Raymond Taylor, his
son, as proxy for John W Taylor

3247
03:22:28,440 --> 03:22:32,680
and conferring, reconfirming the
priesthood upon John W Taylor,

3248
03:22:33,000 --> 03:22:35,560
and so his name is on the
records of the Church.

3249
03:22:36,600 --> 03:22:40,280
Now.
And those things are restored

3250
03:22:41,400 --> 03:22:45,480
interesting.
I would dare to say they never

3251
03:22:45,480 --> 03:22:48,440
left right.
I oh, I would totally.

3252
03:22:48,440 --> 03:22:49,600
Agree with that?
That's not even.

3253
03:22:49,920 --> 03:22:52,680
Not even kidding you.
So what do you think?

3254
03:22:53,360 --> 03:22:55,240
Oh, go ahead.
No, you got.

3255
03:22:55,920 --> 03:22:57,680
No, I was going to do a wrap up
question.

3256
03:22:57,680 --> 03:22:59,360
I thought you were done.
We're not done.

3257
03:23:00,480 --> 03:23:02,560
We are done with John W Taylor.
But there's a few.

3258
03:23:02,560 --> 03:23:06,120
Other points of post manifesto
Polygamy.

3259
03:23:06,240 --> 03:23:09,800
I would like to cover, yeah, for
the context sake.

3260
03:23:09,800 --> 03:23:13,920
However, I would like to read a
few things that people said

3261
03:23:14,320 --> 03:23:16,200
about John W Taylor after he
died.

3262
03:23:16,640 --> 03:23:23,400
OK, Josiah E Hickman, who we
understand was a post.

3263
03:23:23,400 --> 03:23:25,040
Manifesto polygamist, he
appeared.

3264
03:23:25,040 --> 03:23:30,320
In some of these episodes, and
he was accused of being part of

3265
03:23:30,320 --> 03:23:34,120
the circle of network that we've
talked about, and he probably

3266
03:23:34,120 --> 03:23:35,000
was.
If he was accused.

3267
03:23:35,000 --> 03:23:39,160
Of being it.
But any case, he writes in his

3268
03:23:39,160 --> 03:23:45,920
journal on October 12th, 2 days.
So October 12th, 1916, two days

3269
03:23:45,920 --> 03:23:48,000
after John W.
Taylor dies, he writes.

3270
03:23:48,760 --> 03:23:52,200
John W Taylor, former apostle,
died Tuesday.

3271
03:23:52,760 --> 03:23:55,480
His death caused a profound
sorrow in my heart.

3272
03:23:56,600 --> 03:23:59,760
I have loved him for his
integrity and the great

3273
03:23:59,760 --> 03:24:02,520
prophetic power he has once
possessed.

3274
03:24:03,000 --> 03:24:05,440
He was true.
To his convictions, life or

3275
03:24:05,640 --> 03:24:08,560
death, he has been
excommunicated from the Church.

3276
03:24:08,560 --> 03:24:12,760
Yet he was firm in his belief
and still held that our leaders

3277
03:24:12,760 --> 03:24:17,160
sacrificed principle for policy.
He felt the Manifesto was a

3278
03:24:17,160 --> 03:24:20,320
snare and a delusion, and he
could never accept of it, but

3279
03:24:20,320 --> 03:24:22,440
held to God's revelation to his
Father.

3280
03:24:23,160 --> 03:24:26,760
I have this revelation in my
possession, and in it God

3281
03:24:26,760 --> 03:24:30,360
especially says that he does not
wish this people to sacrifice

3282
03:24:30,360 --> 03:24:33,120
the principle of plural marriage
or make further promises to

3283
03:24:33,120 --> 03:24:36,200
their enemies.
He was true to his belief, and

3284
03:24:36,200 --> 03:24:40,760
testified to his death to the
truthfulness of the gospel, and

3285
03:24:40,760 --> 03:24:41,680
a great.
Undying.

3286
03:24:41,680 --> 03:24:44,000
Faith that all would be right at
a time.

3287
03:24:44,840 --> 03:24:48,640
His death was due to a cancerous
condition condition of his

3288
03:24:48,640 --> 03:24:51,680
intestines.
He left five wives.

3289
03:24:53,000 --> 03:25:00,440
It was really six and between 20
and 30 children, Apostle Lyman

3290
03:25:00,440 --> 03:25:05,040
once told me some 20 years ago.
Apostle Lyman.

3291
03:25:05,200 --> 03:25:08,520
Once told me some 20.
Years ago that John W Taylor was

3292
03:25:08,520 --> 03:25:10,720
the most spiritually minded.
Man of the Quorum.

3293
03:25:10,960 --> 03:25:13,800
He said, Quote, He is our
prophet.

3294
03:25:15,160 --> 03:25:19,160
Wow.
So at one point, Francis M Lyman

3295
03:25:19,200 --> 03:25:22,320
was calling John W Taylor.
Our Prophet.

3296
03:25:22,320 --> 03:25:23,920
Meaning the.
Nickname.

3297
03:25:23,920 --> 03:25:25,920
That he had, which was the
prophet of the Quorum.

3298
03:25:26,400 --> 03:25:30,480
Yeah, Isn't that a sad tale of
betrayal?

3299
03:25:30,480 --> 03:25:34,440
Hoof.
Where did Lyman go wrong?

3300
03:25:35,720 --> 03:25:38,320
It was that Reed Smoot hearings,
dude, I'm convinced.

3301
03:25:38,320 --> 03:25:40,200
Of it?
There's the public shame,

3302
03:25:42,360 --> 03:25:44,640
stupid.
Stupid.

3303
03:25:44,640 --> 03:25:46,040
That's what I keep coming back
to.

3304
03:25:46,040 --> 03:25:49,120
Just dumb.
I mean, you you're worried about

3305
03:25:49,120 --> 03:25:51,640
public perception?
Yeah.

3306
03:25:51,960 --> 03:25:56,000
I don't know man.
I I don't know why was it, was

3307
03:25:56,000 --> 03:25:57,840
it more than that?
Was it entangled with?

3308
03:25:58,760 --> 03:26:01,160
More of a fear of the fallout of
the well.

3309
03:26:01,160 --> 03:26:02,440
Of the.
Temporal well-being.

3310
03:26:02,440 --> 03:26:04,400
Of the rest of the members of
the church.

3311
03:26:05,280 --> 03:26:08,440
Or the?
The idea that maybe people's

3312
03:26:08,440 --> 03:26:11,360
salvation would be at stake
because of the church fractured

3313
03:26:12,160 --> 03:26:15,640
the general membership who were
too weak in their faith would

3314
03:26:16,040 --> 03:26:21,040
not have a rod to cling to.
Maybe that's the case.

3315
03:26:21,400 --> 03:26:27,680
And I mean, I know at least AUB
rhetoric is that the Church is

3316
03:26:27,680 --> 03:26:30,000
doing a mission.
Of a.

3317
03:26:30,000 --> 03:26:32,960
Terrestrial order still allowing
the the.

3318
03:26:32,960 --> 03:26:35,400
Gospel as taught.
In the Book of Mormon, to be

3319
03:26:35,400 --> 03:26:38,720
promulgated and to bring people
into a higher degree of glory

3320
03:26:38,720 --> 03:26:42,680
than they would have, even
though they've abandoned plural

3321
03:26:42,680 --> 03:26:44,600
marriage, which will exalt you.
Right.

3322
03:26:44,600 --> 03:26:46,680
And that you need to go to the
priesthood group to get that

3323
03:26:46,680 --> 03:26:47,840
done.
I don't know.

3324
03:26:47,840 --> 03:26:50,000
What was that, that kind of
forethought at that at this

3325
03:26:50,000 --> 03:26:53,160
early time period that justified
these things?

3326
03:26:53,400 --> 03:26:55,400
That's probably the best
motivation that there could have

3327
03:26:55,400 --> 03:26:58,040
been.
And I hope it wasn't anything

3328
03:26:58,040 --> 03:27:01,360
less than, besides personal, you
know, ownership of material

3329
03:27:01,360 --> 03:27:04,560
things or prosperity.
Yeah, I don't know.

3330
03:27:04,880 --> 03:27:08,080
Lyman seems awfully sneaky,
though I can't say he wasn't a

3331
03:27:08,080 --> 03:27:10,440
good man in most junctures of
his life.

3332
03:27:10,440 --> 03:27:14,040
But yes, I would agree, by the
end of his life he was acting.

3333
03:27:14,040 --> 03:27:16,760
Like a snake.
And he was very vindictive.

3334
03:27:16,840 --> 03:27:20,080
And Joseph Mustard tells us that
from his interview as well.

3335
03:27:21,840 --> 03:27:24,160
Down.
The line in reminiscence told by

3336
03:27:24,200 --> 03:27:31,480
Price Johnson in 1971.
There's an interview done by

3337
03:27:31,480 --> 03:27:40,800
Rhea Allred Koons of On Price
Johnson, Bria Allred.

3338
03:27:40,800 --> 03:27:42,680
Coons asks.
Do you know when?

3339
03:27:42,680 --> 03:27:44,400
Nathan Clark received.
His authority.

3340
03:27:44,840 --> 03:27:46,840
Price, Johnson says.
Yes, he.

3341
03:27:46,840 --> 03:27:50,920
Told me the whole story.
He was called with Joseph Muster

3342
03:27:50,920 --> 03:27:52,680
to be a missionary on the Temple
Block.

3343
03:27:53,080 --> 03:27:57,000
John W Woolley and Joseph F
Smith later laid their hands on

3344
03:27:57,000 --> 03:27:59,480
him and ordained him to perform
plural marriages.

3345
03:27:59,960 --> 03:28:02,760
This was at the same time that
they ordained Joseph Muster.

3346
03:28:03,080 --> 03:28:05,720
Nathan told me that story.
I've discussed it with him many

3347
03:28:05,720 --> 03:28:09,680
times, Rhea Koons asked.
Do you know when this authority

3348
03:28:09,680 --> 03:28:11,800
was given Price?
Johnson says.

3349
03:28:11,800 --> 03:28:13,640
Let's see here.
It was about 7.

3350
03:28:14,320 --> 03:28:19,680
There was about seven years, and
he told me in 1923, seven years.

3351
03:28:19,680 --> 03:28:22,520
So that puts.
Seven years between. 9 before

3352
03:28:22,520 --> 03:28:25,640
1923 fits well with.
Joseph.

3353
03:28:25,640 --> 03:28:30,080
Muster saying that he received
his keys of Elijah in 1915.

3354
03:28:30,600 --> 03:28:37,280
Right now I found Talmage's
diary about the baptism.

3355
03:28:39,080 --> 03:28:40,240
But.
I think we all went over that,

3356
03:28:40,240 --> 03:28:43,520
so we.
Don't need to rehash that in

3357
03:28:43,520 --> 03:28:46,520
1921 March. 15th.
Heber J.

3358
03:28:46,520 --> 03:28:50,920
Grant writes in his journal, A
President Frank White Taylor and

3359
03:28:50,920 --> 03:28:53,800
his counselor called and
explained the status of Joseph

3360
03:28:53,800 --> 03:28:59,280
Musser, of the of the Joseph
Musser case, and Brother Penrose

3361
03:28:59,280 --> 03:29:02,880
and I assured then that while we
felt their evidence would not be

3362
03:29:02,880 --> 03:29:07,760
accepted in a court of law, it
was sufficient, in addition to

3363
03:29:07,760 --> 03:29:11,040
the inspiration of the Spirit of
the Lord, to excommunicate

3364
03:29:11,040 --> 03:29:13,880
muster from the Church.
So that's when Joseph.

3365
03:29:13,880 --> 03:29:15,880
Muster gets excommunicated from
the church.

3366
03:29:15,960 --> 03:29:17,920
He was attempting to take a
fourth wife.

3367
03:29:19,280 --> 03:29:22,640
We know.
That around March or May of

3368
03:29:22,640 --> 03:29:27,000
nine, No, sorry, of 1922.
A year later than that, Lauren

3369
03:29:27,000 --> 03:29:33,720
Wooley is actively relating and
proselyte proselyting the 1886

3370
03:29:33,720 --> 03:29:40,920
events at the Nathaniel Baldwin
radio plant, also at the same.

3371
03:29:40,920 --> 03:29:43,560
Time.
That Joseph muster is being

3372
03:29:43,560 --> 03:29:47,480
excommunicated.
They also excommunicated

3373
03:29:48,120 --> 03:29:52,680
Patriarch Israel Barlow Junior
for helping people enter into

3374
03:29:52,680 --> 03:29:56,280
plural marriage in 1921.
So they excommunicated his son

3375
03:29:56,280 --> 03:29:58,000
in 1910.
And they.

3376
03:29:58,000 --> 03:30:06,000
Excommunicated him in in 1921.
So they're just going they're

3377
03:30:06,000 --> 03:30:07,720
they're still cleaning this up,
right?

3378
03:30:07,720 --> 03:30:08,200
They're.
Still.

3379
03:30:08,200 --> 03:30:10,360
Cleaning this up and these are
just all the people.

3380
03:30:10,360 --> 03:30:11,680
That were involved with those
early.

3381
03:30:12,600 --> 03:30:15,120
Those early days before the
fundamentalist movement.

3382
03:30:15,120 --> 03:30:17,440
Came out right and we're really
getting to the point where it

3383
03:30:17,440 --> 03:30:19,560
really is emerging now I I.
Just wanted to.

3384
03:30:20,120 --> 03:30:22,640
Bring this up so there's more
full context.

3385
03:30:24,440 --> 03:30:30,360
Let's see in Richard R Lyman's
diary quoted.

3386
03:30:30,360 --> 03:30:33,040
In the Minutes of the quorum.
Of the 12 Apostles, the

3387
03:30:33,040 --> 03:30:40,000
electronic edition Richard Lyman
writes on March 27th, 1921.

3388
03:30:40,600 --> 03:30:42,640
Nathan G.
Clark says he was.

3389
03:30:42,640 --> 03:30:46,200
Advised by President Joseph F
Smith to make himself a

3390
03:30:46,200 --> 03:30:50,760
sacrifice, and he is telling
that it is all right for men to

3391
03:30:50,760 --> 03:30:53,680
take plural lives.
If they will do it quietly, the

3392
03:30:53,680 --> 03:30:56,880
Church will sanction it.
So that might have been the

3393
03:30:56,880 --> 03:31:00,480
influence for Richard Lyman to
enter into his union.

3394
03:31:00,520 --> 03:31:04,600
Absolutely it was.
Absolutely it was.

3395
03:31:04,600 --> 03:31:06,520
Without a.
Doubt right?

3396
03:31:07,600 --> 03:31:09,840
He's thinking to himself, OK?
How do I?

3397
03:31:09,840 --> 03:31:13,960
Do this well.
You know everyone.

3398
03:31:13,960 --> 03:31:15,520
Knows who Nathan.
G Clark is.

3399
03:31:15,520 --> 03:31:19,440
Let's go talk to him.
And then it's.

3400
03:31:20,160 --> 03:31:23,760
It's it's game on, right?
The Solemn Covenant is made.

3401
03:31:24,640 --> 03:31:27,400
Sure.
Keep it quiet in the church like

3402
03:31:27,400 --> 03:31:33,680
Nathan Clark is saying in Heber
J Grant's.

3403
03:31:33,680 --> 03:31:36,920
Diary Heber.
Writes on.

3404
03:31:36,920 --> 03:31:41,640
April 29th, 19. 31.
This morning, a man.

3405
03:31:41,640 --> 03:31:43,960
By the name of Muir.
Called and I had a long talk

3406
03:31:43,960 --> 03:31:45,960
with him.
He manifested a very fine

3407
03:31:45,960 --> 03:31:48,840
spirit.
He explained that Brother

3408
03:31:48,840 --> 03:31:52,200
Matthias F Cowley had tried to
convert him to plural marriage

3409
03:31:52,200 --> 03:31:55,640
in 1910 after he had been
dropped from the Council of the

3410
03:31:55,640 --> 03:31:59,600
12:00, and had pledged himself
that if we would not cut him off

3411
03:31:59,600 --> 03:32:00,800
the Church, he would.
Stop.

3412
03:32:00,800 --> 03:32:05,320
Teaching that it was right to
practice plural marriage, so

3413
03:32:05,360 --> 03:32:09,280
that that's an additional
witness that Cowley was involved

3414
03:32:09,280 --> 03:32:15,240
with all that despite his
despite his protests.

3415
03:32:15,240 --> 03:32:18,480
And.
Denials in 1933.

3416
03:32:18,480 --> 03:32:20,240
Hebrew J Grant writes in his
journal that.

3417
03:32:20,240 --> 03:32:24,320
Joseph Fielding Smith called and
expressed his regret at the

3418
03:32:24,320 --> 03:32:30,880
speeches of Bishop Archie
Graham, telling of his, oh, his

3419
03:32:30,880 --> 03:32:33,600
paraphrase.
Archie Graham was telling of an

3420
03:32:33,600 --> 03:32:37,320
event where he kind of had some
astral projection stuff going

3421
03:32:37,320 --> 03:32:39,800
on, like where you could see the
spirit world or something.

3422
03:32:39,800 --> 03:32:43,240
In any case, it was really
popular and he was going around

3423
03:32:43,240 --> 03:32:48,240
giving these lectures and Joseph
Joseph Fielding Smith because

3424
03:32:48,240 --> 03:32:49,880
President Smith's dead.
At this point.

3425
03:32:50,480 --> 03:32:53,880
Joseph Fielding Smith is talking
to Hebrew Jay Grant, saying that

3426
03:32:53,880 --> 03:32:55,120
this shouldn't really be going
on.

3427
03:32:55,760 --> 03:33:02,360
And so Hebrew Jay Grant calls
Bishop Archie Graham in and has

3428
03:33:02,360 --> 03:33:05,560
a talk with him.
The Journal entry says, quote I

3429
03:33:05,560 --> 03:33:08,920
explained about the
manifestations and the private

3430
03:33:08,920 --> 03:33:13,240
meetings of the patriarchs in
Davis County with brother John W

3431
03:33:13,240 --> 03:33:16,560
Taylor and how they thought they
were more spiritually minded

3432
03:33:16,560 --> 03:33:20,320
than others and that these
identical patriarchs got off

3433
03:33:20,320 --> 03:33:23,320
their hooks and performed
illegal plural marriages,

3434
03:33:23,320 --> 03:33:25,360
etcetera.
Wow.

3435
03:33:26,760 --> 03:33:30,240
So this leaves a mark on the man
who really tried to stamp this

3436
03:33:30,240 --> 03:33:31,960
out, right?
And.

3437
03:33:31,960 --> 03:33:34,600
And.
Boy, in some ways I think this

3438
03:33:34,600 --> 03:33:37,440
is probably the birth of, you
know, correlation.

3439
03:33:38,240 --> 03:33:42,240
Oh yeah, right.
They're like we can't leave

3440
03:33:42,240 --> 03:33:44,560
these people just to read their
scriptures and.

3441
03:33:45,280 --> 03:33:48,120
And.
Actually do what?

3442
03:33:48,120 --> 03:33:53,480
They say, yeah, all right,
maybe.

3443
03:33:53,840 --> 03:33:56,440
We.
Should close.

3444
03:33:56,800 --> 03:33:59,040
This with the words.
Of Joseph Musser.

3445
03:33:59,320 --> 03:34:03,080
How about that?
OK, in Truth Magazine, volume 6,

3446
03:34:03,920 --> 03:34:07,000
Joseph Muster writes a little
editorial recalling John W

3447
03:34:07,000 --> 03:34:10,200
Taylor.
In it, Muster writes, during his

3448
03:34:10,200 --> 03:34:14,720
mortal career, he was perhaps
the leader among the brethren of

3449
03:34:14,720 --> 03:34:16,520
his quorum in the prophetic
gifts.

3450
03:34:16,840 --> 03:34:20,400
He was designated the prophet of
the Quorum by Hebrew J Grant in

3451
03:34:20,400 --> 03:34:22,720
a letter from England to
President Joseph F Smith.

3452
03:34:23,640 --> 03:34:27,000
John W Taylor was a true apostle
of the Lord Jesus Christ.

3453
03:34:27,280 --> 03:34:29,920
He lived for the gospel, his
devotion to the.

3454
03:34:29,920 --> 03:34:31,320
Kingdom of God was.
Paramount.

3455
03:34:31,480 --> 03:34:34,720
He entertained no thoughts nor
ambitions, countering his

3456
03:34:34,720 --> 03:34:38,080
loyalty to God.
Wherever his lot was cast, he

3457
03:34:38,080 --> 03:34:41,720
defended the truth.
In his missionary work, he was a

3458
03:34:41,720 --> 03:34:44,200
living prototype of Paul the
Apostle.

3459
03:34:44,680 --> 03:34:48,440
With him truth was life, his
very existence.

3460
03:34:48,920 --> 03:34:52,960
He could no more be wrong to his
conceptions of right than he

3461
03:34:52,960 --> 03:34:54,520
could change the law.
Of gravity.

3462
03:34:55,320 --> 03:34:57,280
He was a true.
Son of a noble Sire.

3463
03:34:57,280 --> 03:35:00,680
And in this life the light and
lives of all the prophets of God

3464
03:35:00,680 --> 03:35:04,400
were reflected with him.
There were no classes among true

3465
03:35:04,400 --> 03:35:07,520
Latter Day Saints.
He followed the example of his

3466
03:35:07,520 --> 03:35:09,520
worthy father, the Prophet.
John Taylor.

3467
03:35:10,280 --> 03:35:13,720
When reference was made before
the latter to the common people

3468
03:35:13,720 --> 03:35:15,800
of the Church, he replied with
emphasis.

3469
03:35:16,360 --> 03:35:20,120
Well, there are no common people
among true Latter Day Saints.

3470
03:35:20,760 --> 03:35:24,760
All are on the same footing.
All are of a royal class.

3471
03:35:25,600 --> 03:35:27,880
Apostle Taylor heeded the same.
Truth he.

3472
03:35:27,880 --> 03:35:31,080
Saw among the humblest of the
Saints, the Princess and

3473
03:35:31,080 --> 03:35:34,200
princesses of Heaven.
Well, many arrogant and affluent

3474
03:35:34,200 --> 03:35:39,680
types he marked as failures.
OK, I'm going to ask you a

3475
03:35:39,680 --> 03:35:42,240
couple of quick questions.
Yeah, let's reach out.

3476
03:35:42,240 --> 03:35:42,960
Sure.
No doubt.

3477
03:35:43,240 --> 03:35:44,640
And then?
I have.

3478
03:35:45,160 --> 03:35:48,280
Something just occurred to me
that I I want to.

3479
03:35:48,280 --> 03:35:52,960
Run by you sure.
First, what are the

3480
03:35:52,960 --> 03:35:57,520
repercussions too
fundamentalists for the work

3481
03:35:57,520 --> 03:36:00,520
that John W Taylor did?
I have a great question.

3482
03:36:01,880 --> 03:36:05,680
I honestly don't know if things
would have turned out the way

3483
03:36:05,680 --> 03:36:08,240
they did with the.
Priesthood work barring divine

3484
03:36:08,240 --> 03:36:10,400
intervention.
If he had not been involved

3485
03:36:10,680 --> 03:36:15,560
without his example and public
and private encouragement of

3486
03:36:15,560 --> 03:36:19,760
polygamy all the years of his
life, despite the manifestos, I

3487
03:36:19,760 --> 03:36:21,880
don't know, and it's maybe they
would have.

3488
03:36:21,960 --> 03:36:25,080
But would men like John Wooley
have had the strength to carry

3489
03:36:25,080 --> 03:36:30,000
on right that burden alone, but
when you have such a freaking

3490
03:36:30,000 --> 03:36:33,680
monolith to look up to?
You.

3491
03:36:33,680 --> 03:36:35,560
Don't want to let them down?
And you're.

3492
03:36:35,560 --> 03:36:38,760
Encouraged to shoulder that
burden and carry on the.

3493
03:36:38,760 --> 03:36:40,800
Work when they're gone,
Absolutely.

3494
03:36:41,440 --> 03:36:44,320
I I I.
Could not tell you I mean.

3495
03:36:44,320 --> 03:36:46,760
If there, if there were three
pillars to Mormon.

3496
03:36:46,760 --> 03:36:50,840
Fundamentalism I.
Would probably say, and this may

3497
03:36:50,840 --> 03:36:54,080
be subject to reflection of you
know, if I wasn't so tired at

3498
03:36:54,080 --> 03:36:56,280
this point in time, but if I
were to say the three pillar,

3499
03:36:56,680 --> 03:37:00,640
there they were probably John W
Taylor.

3500
03:37:00,840 --> 03:37:03,560
John Wooley and Lauren Wooley.
No.

3501
03:37:03,960 --> 03:37:05,760
And Joseph Mustard.
Sorry, John Wooley.

3502
03:37:05,760 --> 03:37:07,360
John W Taylor and Joseph
Mustard.

3503
03:37:07,360 --> 03:37:11,200
Not to discount Lauren Wooley,
not to discount others, but

3504
03:37:11,200 --> 03:37:16,520
those three people without their
willingness and and just the

3505
03:37:16,520 --> 03:37:18,000
certain circumstances.
They were placed.

3506
03:37:18,000 --> 03:37:20,440
In with the things that they
did, not that someone else

3507
03:37:20,440 --> 03:37:22,560
couldn't have done them, but
they did them.

3508
03:37:22,880 --> 03:37:25,800
They did those things that
allowed the work to carry on.

3509
03:37:26,280 --> 03:37:28,880
I just, like I said, someone
else could have been raised up

3510
03:37:28,880 --> 03:37:32,360
to do it.
Obviously there was authority

3511
03:37:32,360 --> 03:37:35,360
being compartmentalized and
spread around, but I really

3512
03:37:35,360 --> 03:37:40,080
think any way you trace it, even
especially if you don't believe

3513
03:37:40,080 --> 03:37:43,680
in the Lord and wooly story
which the Church has tried to

3514
03:37:43,680 --> 03:37:45,160
malign.
And I'm not saying I don't

3515
03:37:45,160 --> 03:37:51,440
believe in it, because I do.
But this whole situation brings

3516
03:37:52,240 --> 03:37:54,440
an interesting redundancy.
Or fail safe.

3517
03:37:54,440 --> 03:37:58,600
Program to the keys being passed
on whether you want.

3518
03:37:58,600 --> 03:38:01,320
To claim it.
Coming from the LDS Church or

3519
03:38:01,320 --> 03:38:04,920
outside from the Woollies?
There's there's a line.

3520
03:38:04,920 --> 03:38:10,360
To trace, there's a line to
trace it to another Apostle of

3521
03:38:10,360 --> 03:38:13,080
the Lord, which is has been
underrated.

3522
03:38:13,080 --> 03:38:16,000
Which is John W Taylor.
Yeah.

3523
03:38:16,000 --> 03:38:19,240
His apostleship is just as good
as any other apostleship, in my

3524
03:38:19,240 --> 03:38:20,320
opinion.
Yep.

3525
03:38:21,520 --> 03:38:26,440
Yep, absolutely.
I look at it as.

3526
03:38:27,760 --> 03:38:31,600
You have.
In my opinion. 2 lines of

3527
03:38:31,600 --> 03:38:35,080
authority.
That you could really in in this

3528
03:38:35,080 --> 03:38:36,520
case.
Speaking of this.

3529
03:38:36,520 --> 03:38:39,600
Case There's two lines of
authority that you can cling to.

3530
03:38:40,320 --> 03:38:43,160
You can cling to the woolies,
right?

3531
03:38:43,160 --> 03:38:46,760
If you think the church lost
everything in in 1886.

3532
03:38:47,520 --> 03:38:51,240
Or you could say, Nope, the
church still had it and there's

3533
03:38:51,240 --> 03:38:56,160
an apostle that branches off, so
to speak, and keeps it alive.

3534
03:38:56,360 --> 03:39:01,400
So I agree with a fail safe.
Let me ask you this question.

3535
03:39:02,560 --> 03:39:07,920
What do you think the legacy of
John W Taylor is within the LDS

3536
03:39:07,920 --> 03:39:11,040
Church?
Oh, I know I Growing up, I never

3537
03:39:11,040 --> 03:39:12,720
heard about him.
The first time I ever heard

3538
03:39:12,720 --> 03:39:16,160
about him was when I was on my
mission and the Church

3539
03:39:16,160 --> 03:39:18,440
published.
What they called Gospel Topics

3540
03:39:18,440 --> 03:39:24,520
essays and they addressed
polygamy after the Manifesto.

3541
03:39:24,520 --> 03:39:27,640
And they literally just placed
it just on Matthias Cowley and

3542
03:39:27,640 --> 03:39:31,120
John W Taylor and said it was
nothing more than just a few

3543
03:39:31,120 --> 03:39:33,840
plural marriages as we have
discussed.

3544
03:39:34,280 --> 03:39:37,040
Nothing to be further from the
truth, right?

3545
03:39:39,040 --> 03:39:44,640
I think John W Taylor is.
Really.

3546
03:39:44,640 --> 03:39:46,640
Probably kind of.
Responsible.

3547
03:39:47,840 --> 03:39:50,120
For.
The.

3548
03:39:50,120 --> 03:39:53,960
Church doing a couple of.
Things one is this big push for

3549
03:39:53,960 --> 03:39:58,720
correlation, right where we're
going to be the same everywhere

3550
03:39:58,720 --> 03:40:01,280
across the board, 'cause we
can't have a rogue element

3551
03:40:01,360 --> 03:40:02,840
again.
Like we just saw.

3552
03:40:03,480 --> 03:40:07,200
Sure.
And I also think that John W

3553
03:40:07,200 --> 03:40:10,640
Taylor and and I'm not saying
that these are bad things that

3554
03:40:10,640 --> 03:40:13,040
Taylor did not by any stretch of
the imagination.

3555
03:40:13,360 --> 03:40:18,040
I'm just saying this is what his
opponents did because of it,

3556
03:40:18,160 --> 03:40:22,520
because of his actions of
holding to the to the truth and

3557
03:40:22,520 --> 03:40:26,720
and erring on the side of right.
So correlation, the other thing

3558
03:40:26,720 --> 03:40:33,240
I think that John W Taylor
forces the church to do, and

3559
03:40:33,240 --> 03:40:35,800
maybe that's a better way of
putting it right, I think John

3560
03:40:35,800 --> 03:40:37,640
Taylor.
Forces the church to go.

3561
03:40:37,640 --> 03:40:42,840
To a correlation model because
you can't have rogue elements,

3562
03:40:42,840 --> 03:40:45,000
so to speak.
Just picking up the scriptures

3563
03:40:45,000 --> 03:40:47,680
and being like, well, that's
what it says, let's do that.

3564
03:40:49,600 --> 03:40:54,800
The other thing I think he does
is he forces the church to start

3565
03:40:56,080 --> 03:41:01,160
instituting loyalty tests to the
man in charge, right?

3566
03:41:01,360 --> 03:41:06,000
And I think he he forces them to
change from.

3567
03:41:06,760 --> 03:41:09,080
A place and and.
This may upset some people.

3568
03:41:09,080 --> 03:41:11,120
I apologize.
This is just how I see it.

3569
03:41:12,560 --> 03:41:16,160
It forces the church to move
from a church founded in

3570
03:41:16,160 --> 03:41:18,920
principle to a church.
Of men.

3571
03:41:19,920 --> 03:41:21,600
Right.
Doesn't matter what the guy

3572
03:41:21,600 --> 03:41:23,840
before you did.
It only matters what the guy

3573
03:41:23,840 --> 03:41:26,160
right now does.
Oh my yes.

3574
03:41:26,920 --> 03:41:29,120
And?
And I think that's a direct

3575
03:41:29,120 --> 03:41:34,520
result of Taylor's doggedness
and determination to serve the

3576
03:41:34,520 --> 03:41:37,800
Lord at any cost.
Even if it flies in.

3577
03:41:37,800 --> 03:41:43,080
The face of what is said
publicly, I I want to know I'm.

3578
03:41:43,080 --> 03:41:47,120
Making my own comment.
To tour to our listeners on that

3579
03:41:47,120 --> 03:41:48,320
or something you brought up
about.

3580
03:41:48,520 --> 03:41:50,360
Following the.
Living profit or following the

3581
03:41:50,360 --> 03:41:56,200
living oracles and the rhetoric
is that those are the dead

3582
03:41:56,200 --> 03:41:58,360
profits follow the living
profit, right?

3583
03:41:58,920 --> 03:42:02,960
I will state to you right now,
just because they're dead

3584
03:42:03,040 --> 03:42:05,400
doesn't mean they're wrong,
right?

3585
03:42:06,280 --> 03:42:13,400
Absolutely, absolutely. 100%.
And look, let's parse out.

3586
03:42:13,400 --> 03:42:15,120
Some words here, right?
I mean the other.

3587
03:42:15,120 --> 03:42:17,080
Side likes to do that.
Sure.

3588
03:42:17,360 --> 03:42:19,320
Those past prophets, they're not
dead.

3589
03:42:20,240 --> 03:42:22,920
They're just on the other side
of the veil, right?

3590
03:42:22,920 --> 03:42:25,840
Or your living prophet's just
gonna be a dead prophet one day.

3591
03:42:25,840 --> 03:42:27,680
So then why even listen to his
words now?

3592
03:42:28,040 --> 03:42:30,320
Absolutely.
Chuck it.

3593
03:42:30,560 --> 03:42:33,120
Chuck it in the trash bin.
Yeah.

3594
03:42:33,120 --> 03:42:35,080
Because nothing's permanent.
Yep.

3595
03:42:36,400 --> 03:42:41,520
The other.
Thing I will say is that after.

3596
03:42:41,520 --> 03:42:45,360
John W Taylor and his
Generation.

3597
03:42:45,840 --> 03:42:49,400
I know there was one in.
There at the same time he was

3598
03:42:49,400 --> 03:42:51,120
that went.
Through but I can't.

3599
03:42:51,120 --> 03:42:56,280
Think of too many Youngs or
Taylors being called to the

3600
03:42:56,280 --> 03:42:59,360
Quorum of the 12 after this.
Sure.

3601
03:42:59,720 --> 03:43:01,120
No, you're right.
You're right about that.

3602
03:43:01,440 --> 03:43:05,480
I think this is my opinion.
I think he.

3603
03:43:05,480 --> 03:43:08,560
Scared the crap out of the
organization and they.

3604
03:43:08,560 --> 03:43:11,560
Were like if we want to move
forward, if we want to quote

3605
03:43:11,720 --> 03:43:19,360
progress, we cannot be having
this these families be in

3606
03:43:19,360 --> 03:43:23,480
leadership any longer.
That's a good point.

3607
03:43:24,200 --> 03:43:25,960
And.
Because after this I know

3608
03:43:25,960 --> 03:43:27,320
there's.
A young on there.

3609
03:43:28,440 --> 03:43:30,880
At that point.
But.

3610
03:43:31,600 --> 03:43:35,400
Bring him, bring him after him.
I don't see anybody.

3611
03:43:35,400 --> 03:43:38,120
Else.
There might have been one more

3612
03:43:38,120 --> 03:43:41,720
young Was there a?
There might have been a Dilworth

3613
03:43:41,720 --> 03:43:42,720
young.
I want to.

3614
03:43:42,720 --> 03:43:46,080
Say but OK.
You might be right, but I don't

3615
03:43:46,080 --> 03:43:47,480
know.
Certainly don't see any more

3616
03:43:47,480 --> 03:43:49,760
Taylors.
Not that I recall.

3617
03:43:50,160 --> 03:43:51,560
You don't.
See any more Woodruffs?

3618
03:43:52,600 --> 03:43:55,320
No.
And we'll we'll just say.

3619
03:43:55,320 --> 03:43:57,240
OK, there was.
One more young after.

3620
03:43:57,240 --> 03:44:01,080
That.
Maybe but.

3621
03:44:01,080 --> 03:44:04,760
Since then, no, I think, I think
John.

3622
03:44:04,760 --> 03:44:09,200
W Taylor single handedly.
Scared the crap out of the

3623
03:44:09,200 --> 03:44:16,600
church and said, and the church
said we can't have the the, you

3624
03:44:16,600 --> 03:44:20,960
know, the, the, the, the blood
legacy of these people, the.

3625
03:44:21,080 --> 03:44:24,920
The posterity of of.
These early leaders throw monkey

3626
03:44:24,920 --> 03:44:26,160
wrenches.
Into what we want.

3627
03:44:26,160 --> 03:44:29,240
To do from this point.
Forward that's potentially a

3628
03:44:29,240 --> 03:44:32,800
very fair observation.
The other thing I'll say is that

3629
03:44:33,440 --> 03:44:37,280
we would not have.
What we have now today as

3630
03:44:37,280 --> 03:44:40,000
fundamentalists.
Without John W Taylor it just

3631
03:44:40,000 --> 03:44:41,560
doesn't happen.
I hear you.

3632
03:44:42,440 --> 03:44:46,640
Best case scenario it would have
happened some other way, but

3633
03:44:46,640 --> 03:44:50,440
like I've stated before.
He laid in a similitude to

3634
03:44:50,440 --> 03:44:53,080
Christ as a true prophet of God.
Should be.

3635
03:44:53,520 --> 03:44:56,760
And his life was that way.
In ways that are way beyond his

3636
03:44:56,760 --> 03:45:00,240
circumstances and control, he
was willing to lay down his.

3637
03:45:00,240 --> 03:45:02,040
Life for the.
Perpetuation of the priesthood

3638
03:45:02,640 --> 03:45:05,000
as that we that we can be
exalted.

3639
03:45:05,600 --> 03:45:11,120
Yep.
Yep, 100 percent, 100% and he's

3640
03:45:11,120 --> 03:45:13,240
indispensable for his time as.
Much as.

3641
03:45:13,240 --> 03:45:15,520
Brigham Young was indispensable
for his time.

3642
03:45:16,000 --> 03:45:17,960
Amen.
John W Taylor was the

3643
03:45:17,960 --> 03:45:22,280
indispensable man for his time,
and I'm sure it must have hurt

3644
03:45:22,280 --> 03:45:27,560
his children somewhat to have to
see their dad pass away in the

3645
03:45:27,560 --> 03:45:31,520
circumstances that he did.
But a funny thing is that

3646
03:45:31,600 --> 03:45:35,400
because of God and because of
honest history, the truth always

3647
03:45:35,400 --> 03:45:38,000
comes out.
The truth always comes out.

3648
03:45:38,560 --> 03:45:43,280
And I would dare to say that in
going forward we'll look at guys

3649
03:45:43,280 --> 03:45:49,240
like Taylor and Musser and
Woolly a lot more frequently

3650
03:45:49,240 --> 03:45:52,080
than what we have up to this
point because.

3651
03:45:52,080 --> 03:45:55,080
Quite frankly, I think we're.
Gonna need need their examples

3652
03:45:55,080 --> 03:45:59,800
more and more sure and and I
think that's really the legacy

3653
03:46:00,400 --> 03:46:02,680
come what may come hell or high
water.

3654
03:46:03,360 --> 03:46:06,480
Just stand.
For what you know is right and

3655
03:46:06,480 --> 03:46:11,240
let let the consequences fall,
consequences be damned.

3656
03:46:11,960 --> 03:46:15,440
So rage it.
That's right, dude.

3657
03:46:15,520 --> 03:46:16,880
I'll.
Tell you what, this was good.

3658
03:46:16,880 --> 03:46:19,120
Stuff.
I always enjoy it every.

3659
03:46:19,120 --> 03:46:23,440
Single time So.
Anything you want?

3660
03:46:24,280 --> 03:46:26,000
No, I don't know.
I'm.

3661
03:46:26,040 --> 03:46:28,440
I'm too tired of thinking much.
Besides saying you're all.

3662
03:46:28,440 --> 03:46:31,160
Caught up for now, yeah.
That's all.

3663
03:46:31,320 --> 03:46:33,640
That's all I got, I think.
Awesome.

3664
03:46:34,080 --> 03:46:35,800
Awesome.
All right, man.

3665
03:46:35,840 --> 03:46:37,480
Well.
I.

3666
03:46:37,480 --> 03:46:39,480
Guess I'll see you in a few days
now.

3667
03:46:40,520 --> 03:46:41,560
Sounds great.
Can't wait.

3668
03:46:41,720 --> 03:46:43,040
Awesome.
Bye everybody.

3669
03:47:13,920 --> 03:47:16,600
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.