Episode #67: Defending the Restored Gospel From The C.E.S. Letter W/Sarah Allen

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Back in 2015, there was a letter
that was published That Shook

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many people's testimony of the
restored gospel, that letter was

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authored by a man named Jeremy
Reynolds and was addressed to an

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employee of the church
educational system.

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It became known as the CES
letter in the letter mr.

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Reynolds attacks foundational,
truth claims of the restored

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gospel and Joseph Smith on this
episode I have on Sarah Allen.

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Sarah is a lifelong develop.
Member of the Church of Jesus

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Christ of Latter-day Saints in
the volunteer for fair Mormon,

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which is a group dedicated.
Hated to providing, well,

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informed and well-documented
answers to gospel questions in

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our conversation.
Sarah provides well-documented.

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Accurate historical data to
refuse some of the letters.

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Most well-known accusations
stick around to get equipped

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defends.
Has restored Gospel of Jesus

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Christ.
On this episode of the Mormon

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Renegade podcast, There is no
doubt as a general rule, Mormons

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are a real social people and
there's no better place to

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connect with other people than
at conferences devoted to

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Mormonism with that said,
there's one coming up that I

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can't recommend highly enough
and that is the restoration tour

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conference.
It is happening this year on May

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26th and 27th and wind in Utah.
Many speakers.

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You will hear.
There have been on this podcast.

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They include Jacob adrene
Hannah, Stoddard Taylor, Smith

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Joshua Erickson, Kimberly Smith,
myself and more.

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Go to Restoration Torah
conference dot-org, or click on

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the link in this episode page
notes to find out how you can

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attend.
Here's the unfortunate truth

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right now as fundamentalists and
traditional LDS folks, we can't

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expect to have accurate history
told by others because true

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history and scholarship is
problematic for certain people.

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And organizations, we're going
to have to do this work

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ourselves and to do that, we
will have to support each other

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in this kind of work.
Now, anybody who's anybody in

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fundamentalist, circles knows
who drew Briny is, he is perhaps

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the most prolific author within
Mormon.

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Fundamentalism.
Drew's newest project is

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something.
I think all Mormons can benefit

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from he is in the process of
creating an annotated version of

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the Doctrine and Covenants.
Once you have a copy of this,

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you'll be able to compare
current sections with previous

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versions.
And also what early LDS leaders

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had to say about that particular
section as fundamentalists and

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traditional LDS.
Folks, we are constantly trying

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to get back into the minds of
the early Brethren.

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This project that Drew is
engaged in, right?

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I was going to be the ultimate
tool to help us do that now

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because this annotated version
of the Doctrine and Covenants is

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such a massive undertaking, Drew
needs some help from others,

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Drew's plan for getting this
annotated version of the

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Doctrine and Covenants out is
through crowdfunding the link

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for that will be out April 4th
if you want more details sooner,

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go to Drew's Facebook page and
messaging from there and he'll

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give you all the details further
on Saturday.

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April 8, I'll be releasing an
episode that talks about this

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project in Greater detail.
So please if you feel impressed

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to do so and have the means I'd
humbly ask that you reach out to

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Drew and support this project,
that will help Advance the

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scholarship and true doctrine of
the restored gospel.

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Look, we live in some pretty
challenging times.

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Instability is all around us and
it can feel pretty overwhelming

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in order to not just survive,
but to thrive in this time, we

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all need to strengthen our
relationship with God.

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Then maximize and engage every
promising gift.

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God has given us in his Book
energy unveiled, Derek Peterson

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lays out some important
principles, which will give you

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the tools and practices to
strengthen your relationship

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with God and help you maximize
your own potential to get

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through these trying times.
Head over to Mormon

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Renegade.com, click on the link
in this episode page and get

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your copy today because of your
generosity last year, I was able

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to buy better audio equipment
and software.

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I can't tell you how much it
meant to me.

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That not only did you spend your
time here with me on the podcast

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but also that, You found enough
value and what I'm doing that,

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you donated the podcast upgraded
this year, I want to continue to

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grow.
Now I want to add video to the

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podcast, continue to help you my
guests, a myself, connect better

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through the show the other
feature.

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I'm working on for this podcast,
is something I have to remain

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vague about for now.
But what I can say is that it's

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something that will help us
better connect as fundamentalist

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and traditional LDS.
Folks, now to get that equipment

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for the video, Content.
I want to do and to build the

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infrastructure for the other
project with this podcast

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donations would certainly be
welcome or you can go to Mormon

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Renegade.com.
Click that supply store button

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and get some new swag.
New stuff will be out soon as

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well.
Now if you can't afford to you

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either of those two things, I
totally get it.

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Maybe just keep the podcasting
your prayers, that will be

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blessed with those resources.
Again, thank you for everything

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you do as well as for listening
to the podcast.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Sarah, thanks for coming on.
Thank you for having me.

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I'm happy to be here.
So real quick, I always like to

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just get a little background so
people know who it is.

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I'm talking to, right?
I never want to just be like

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here's this expert.
Take her word for it or my word.

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I always say you need to go do
your own research, but part of

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that is getting to know people.
We're you raised LDS Sarah?

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Yes.
I'm okay.

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Were you raised like here around
Utah?

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Or were you all over the place?
Or I was born in Washington

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state.
But A when I was pretty young.

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So I lived here most of my life
as an adult.

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I lived for a little while in
Ireland but that was only for a

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few months.
Wow, I'll bet you.

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That was an experience Mia.
So what part of Washington were

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you born in?
I was born in Bellevue which is

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a suburb of Seattle.
I know exactly where it's at.

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So I have I have like a lot of
connections up there.

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My wife was born in Longview.
My mom lived in Kennewick up by,

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you know, Tri-Cities area.
And then I spent Summers with my

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grandparents up in Port Orchard.
So I'm, I'm pretty familiar with

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that neck of the woods.
Yeah, it's beautiful up there

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too much rain for me.
I enjoy seeing.

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I enjoy being able to see for a
ways and felt a little pendant

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at times.
But so, what time?

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What's that?
Okay?

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I don't mind the rain,
obviously, you know, going to

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Ireland.
It rained every day, I was there

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Elmo.
What took you to Ireland?

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There is something called the be
unac Visa that you can get.

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If you are a single adult under
the age of 30 and you take eight

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college credit hours, that
semester, you can just apply for

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a work visa to go off for 4 to 6
months in a different country

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and work and so I did that now.
It's would you do while you're

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up there for work?
And I worked at a bank.

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Okay.
Yeah.

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But I didn't mortgage kind of
Junior and writing for

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mortgages, nice.
So I'll bet you.

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That was fun.
Being up there is last loved

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every minute of it.
What's the restored gospel?

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Like up up that way.
The people there are fantastic,

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they're incredibly friendly.
They just opened up a brand new

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board there in Dublin.
When I was there, it was very

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close to my house before that
there was only one.

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And so they split into two down
one on each half of the city's

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kind of dissected right through
the middle by a river.

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Okay.
And the one that they had before

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was on the north side, And I
lived on the South Side, so it

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was nice to have one right by my
house.

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They actually the website
wouldn't do the, the world

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locator thing.
I don't know if you're familiar

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with that but yeah, I remember
that.

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Yeah, yeah, it wasn't working
and so I had to call them and

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ask them.
And the name of my street is

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very similar to a suburb of
Dublin.

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So they sent me like four hours
away the first couple weeks

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until I figured out there.
We want about 10 minutes from my

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house Yeah, I know it's funny
when even when you just go back

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East to the United States right
out in the west were kind of

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spoiled because everything just
runs north-south East-West for

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the most part, right?
But you get on the East Coast.

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You get in Europe.
Nothing is straight, it all,

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wines somewhere, and we'll throw
you into a circle and then

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you're like, where am I?
And it takes a minute to wrap

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your head around that.
That is very true.

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Dublin is not too hard to to get
around once you're familiar with

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it because it's a small City but
it does take a little while to

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learn your way around a little
bit.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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No.
It's once you get used to it.

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It's not too bad but it does
take a minute to get your mind

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wrapped around a lot of that.
But so for my listeners here I

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reached out to Sarah because for
a while I've been wanting to

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have someone on who's kind of
been able.

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Well to kind of take to task the
CES letter.

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Now for those of you who don't
know what the CES letter, I'm

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going to have Sarah, explain
exactly what it is.

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What its history is and that
sort of stuff.

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And then we'll move into kind of
some of her rebuttals for it

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because this letter has done
Untold damage to so many Mormons

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of every stripe, Sarah's an
active LDS woman.

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But it in this Instance, it's
one of those places where I feel

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like we should really be
standing together, both

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fundamentalists and and
traditional LDS folks because I

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feel like again, this is
something where we're like, we

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should have each other's backs
on this because this is a Mormon

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problem.
This isn't just an LDS church

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problem or a fundamentalist
problem.

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So, Sarah real quick.
What was the CES letter?

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First of all, I do completely
agree with you.

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I think we need to build bridges
on this and that's why I'm happy

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to be here.
Here.

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So the CES letter was a document
that was written by a man named

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Jeremy Runnells.
He posted it on Reddit back in

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late, March of 2013.
He provided a download link, and

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ask everybody to pass it around
and share it and to tweak it.

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So it fit their circumstances a
little bit better, kind of

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personalize it, and he wrote it
to a siesta.

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After that, his grandfather knew
that he had asked him to talk to

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you.
After Jeremy was leaving the

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church, he was still technically
a member but he didn't believe

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in the gospel at all.
He was at that point, a

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proclaimed atheist.
He was writing angry letters to

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some of the Apostles that aren't
you can find online.

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He was very angry and bitter at
that point.

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And so he did.
Say in a comment that he has

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since deleted on Reddit, that he
did not write the letter,

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specifically for the CES
director, he addressed it to

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him, but he didn't write it to
him because nothing that the guy

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said would have changed his mind
at all, or made any difference.

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He was already mentally out of
the church to that point, but he

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wanted to pacify his grandfather
and keep the family peace.

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So he wrote the quiz, he wrote
the letter out and that I never

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responded to him after that,
like he had agreed to read

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through.
It and everything and then he

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never responded.
And so, that was kind of a big

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story of it.
Oh, you know, the church can

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answer these questions.
So it got passed around like

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crazy and they posted it up on
Mormon stories.

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And I think, Norman, think,
Norman think was the first one

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just within weeks of his posting
it on the ex-mormon subreddit

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and then it just took off like
crazy from there, right?

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Real quick.
What what is Mormon?

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Think, Norman think is an
anti-mormon website where they,

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they did.
The same thing that Jeremy did

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where they initially, pretended
to be members of the church who

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were active in their Awards, and
then it came out later that they

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weren't.
So they all eventually left the

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church, but for a while they
were they were doing its what is

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called on Reddit as Pi Mo P MO.
Physically and mentally out.

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00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:17,000
And so they are still active for
various reasons that they don't

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00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:23,400
believe in the church.
Anymore gospel at all and some

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00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,100
mormonthink was run by a bunch
of those people and it is very

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00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:30,000
similar to the CES letter where
it lists a bunch of questions

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00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,200
and then goes through and list a
bunch of things that they claim

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00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:39,600
are true but are kind of Twisted
and aren't actually What is

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00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,600
right?
So real quick do we know why

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00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,100
that CES director not that it
would have mattered right?

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00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:50,400
Because Jeremy said you know hey
it wouldn't Change My Mind One

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00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,700
Way or Another, which I think
can speak to the idea of being

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00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:58,800
an honest Seeker, right?
At least at least get out there

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00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,900
and say, there's nothing that's
going to change my mind here,

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00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:05,400
you know, I'm I'm out.
So I find it a little bit

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00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,200
disingenuous that he did he you
know, wrote that letter to him

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00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,200
anyway but do we have any idea
why the CES director didn't

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00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,800
didn't respond back and nothing
that I know for sure I would

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00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,000
assume is because the first
version of the letter was very

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00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,300
hostile.
Like I mean, it's still hostile

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00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:28,800
now but the original one was
even worse and it was very angry

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00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:31,700
and tone.
And once you've been doing this

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00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:35,300
for a little while, you kind of
start to Realize when people are

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00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:38,000
genuinely looking for answers
and when they're just venting

248
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,900
and it was very clear that
Jeremy was just venting.

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00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,700
So I think he was like well it's
probably not going to do any

250
00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:48,200
good at this point because I
think you're just expecting like

251
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:51,500
a couple of questions and he
wasn't expecting like a hundred

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00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:54,700
page document of what accusation
after another.

253
00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:59,600
So my opinion is that he
probably looked at it and went

254
00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:04,900
he you know he's Beyond That at
this point, he's too angry to

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00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:08,900
listen, right?
You know, I did watch the, the

256
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:11,700
Mormon stories episode with
Jeremy and and I want to be

257
00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:15,300
careful here that these aren't
ad hominem attacks, right?

258
00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:20,100
That's not what I'm out for.
I'm out for actually dissecting

259
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:24,500
the letter, but I did find
Jeremy to be somewhat

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00:15:24,500 --> 00:15:28,200
approachable, right?
I want to give give him a proper

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00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,100
do there, you get the sense that
he had a?

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00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:34,600
Or at least this was my
takeaway.

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00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:39,000
He's hearing impaired and he had
a blessing us at his hearing

264
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:43,100
would be restored and it didn't.
And, and to me just as an

265
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:46,100
outsider looking in, it seemed
like there was maybe a little

266
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:49,200
bit of heartbreak, they're mixed
in with that.

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00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:54,300
And so I kind of felt for him
that way, however, that doesn't

268
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:57,600
take away from from some of the
things that was in that letter

269
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,200
and again, that letters toll
done just Untold damage.

270
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,200
Hood to Mormons of all Stripes.
So what what kind of accusations

271
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,400
was he leveling in that letter?
Sarah?

272
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:19,800
That God was schizophrenic and
psychotic and that you couldn't

273
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,700
trust the spirit and that Joseph
Smith was a prod.

274
00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:25,800
And that the Book of Mormon in
the book of Abraham weren't

275
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,400
historical.
He went through every single

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00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:33,100
pillar that somebody who
believes in the The Gospel or

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00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:37,800
any of like even at all remotely
connected to it, through

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00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,100
history, or through the leaf and
the event.

279
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,600
He just knocked down every
single pillar of, of a testimony

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00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:51,600
that he could end of, right?
Um, specifically, in the Book of

281
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,500
Mormon, he raised things like
anachronisms.

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00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:58,100
He raised things like, you know,
there were no horses in the Book

283
00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:02,100
of Mormon, which now, I have to
be, like, haha, because we View,

284
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:06,000
We felt, we found some of those.
So so we know those are there.

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00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:14,300
But what, when he's knocking
those pillars down, do is it

286
00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:16,599
okay if I mentioned?
And because I can edit this

287
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:19,000
later, is it okay?
If I mentioned that you work for

288
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,400
fair or work with their okay?
All right.

289
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:23,900
Don't get paid.
But yes.

290
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:28,000
Okay, so so in were you a member
of fare during those days when

291
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,100
that flutter first came out?
No, I did not come to fare until

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00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,200
Laughter, I started writing
those posts.

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00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:40,400
Okay, good writing my rebuttal
to it on Reddit and one of my

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00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:44,200
co-moderators is the fair board
and he took them to the

295
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:45,600
president of fair behind my
back.

296
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,100
And did that tell me that he was
doing that until after he had

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00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:53,300
done it and the fair board liked
them and wanting to post them on

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00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:56,700
delete their website.
And so that is how I came to be

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00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,000
affiliated with Fair.
Okay, perfect.

300
00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:04,700
What was your first Just what
was your first impression as you

301
00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:08,400
first read through the letter.
I read through it the first

302
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,700
time, several years ago, not
when it first came out, but

303
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:15,500
probably around two thousand
fifteen or so.

304
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:20,400
And my first impression, when I
read through, it was, oh, here

305
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,600
we go again, just because there
wasn't much in it, that was knew

306
00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:28,100
a lot of it was things that you
had just seen come up over and

307
00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:30,700
over and over again, in anti LDS
literature before.

308
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,300
And they were things that
because I like to read and I

309
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:40,300
like history and so I have read
a lot of lbs history.

310
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:46,700
So a lot of them are things that
I was comfortable responding to

311
00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:48,200
like oh well that's not exactly
true.

312
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,100
That strong, you know, when I
was going through.

313
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,400
And so none of it really
bothered me but the tone of it

314
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,800
bothered me because it was so
angry.

315
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:02,100
And that is what initially a lot
of people responded to right, I

316
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:06,800
think in some ways, it may be,
this is an unfair

317
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:12,600
characterization, but I feel
like Jeremy writes that thing

318
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,200
from a place of sincerity right
there because because the it

319
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,300
comes across that, he's really
struggling, he's angry, I get

320
00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:26,400
all those feelings, right?
I get them. 100%, But I almost

321
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:31,400
feel like the anti-mormon crowd
got around him and said, here's

322
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,600
our champion.
Right?

323
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,100
Here's, here's the guy, we're
going to put forward and at

324
00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:39,600
least on my end, maybe you've
heard something different, cause

325
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,200
you're in different circles than
I am.

326
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:43,500
I haven't heard too much out of
him since then.

327
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,400
There's been a few revisions to
the letter if I'm not mistaken,

328
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,400
but to me, he seemed kind of
quiet now.

329
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:54,400
What is that, the case?
Not really no, okay.

330
00:19:55,500 --> 00:20:00,400
So Franklin presents, he's still
comments on the exponent

331
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,000
subreddit he still writes
rebuttals to everyone.

332
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:09,200
He wrote several to me that I
have not read, but I read some

333
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,000
of his previous ones like to
jump in it and a Anderson and

334
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,300
things.
So I knew what sort of things

335
00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:17,200
would be in it and I didn't want
to read them because I knew I

336
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,100
would still over it and take it
personally and and I believe you

337
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:23,100
just turned into like a big
argument back and forth and I

338
00:20:23,108 --> 00:20:26,800
didn't want to do that.
So I haven't read them, I've

339
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:31,800
heard, what is in them?
He is from what I understand

340
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,300
writing, a master rebuttal to
everybody.

341
00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:39,500
That's going to just include
every single possible thing that

342
00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:43,600
anybody has ever said in
defensive, the restored Church.

343
00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:48,000
Wow out.
But apparently that's in the

344
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,900
works from what I've here?
Holy cow at what point.

345
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:55,500
Do you decide that?
You know what someone has to say

346
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:58,900
something about this letter?
Because I'll admit when I first

347
00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:04,300
saw it you know I first see it
and at this point I'm still an

348
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:08,100
active member of the LDS church
and I'm just like whatever.

349
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,000
Right.
I got other things to worry

350
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,700
about, you know, you could tell
he was angry and I was like,

351
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:15,500
maybe it's just a Enter
whatever.

352
00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:19,300
At what point do you feel like?
Okay, Somebody's gotta Gotta

353
00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:23,400
Give a rebuttal to this?
It wouldn't die.

354
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:29,500
Basically, it just kept going.
Like I said, I'm a moderator at

355
00:21:29,500 --> 00:21:36,800
the LDS subreddit on Reddit and
I am also fairly active in the

356
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,500
Latter Day Saints subreddit as
well.

357
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:44,800
So we would get get questions
about it with the trolling

358
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,100
comments.
Coming through all the time,

359
00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:51,000
saying, we CES letter, that
artist who worked for Marvel,

360
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,600
put it in one of the spots.
Iron Man Comics, he was wearing

361
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,500
a CES letter patch in one of the
comics they had tracked it and

362
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,500
edit that out so like it just
wouldn't die.

363
00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:04,600
It just kept coming up over and
over again.

364
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,900
We kept getting questions from
it, people quote it to us, like

365
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:10,000
we don't know what's in it.
You know, and they think they're

366
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,500
being clever and saying, well
what about this?

367
00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:14,600
And they phrase it in a
word-for-word the way that he

368
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,400
phrases it.
Like, we would have noticed that

369
00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:20,300
the other Emmett, just things
like that.

370
00:22:20,300 --> 00:22:24,100
And so, it just kept coming up
and There are a bunch of other

371
00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:27,800
rebuttals to it and they all
were really good at certain

372
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,900
things but none of them were
really comprehensive that we're

373
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:37,400
really good at everything and so
I thought so we should probably

374
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:39,000
somebody should probably do
that.

375
00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:44,500
Was my first my first thought
about it and then have my father

376
00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:47,300
went well why don't you?
And I went I'm not qualified to

377
00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:52,600
do that when he's no, I can't do
that but that Meeting would not

378
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,500
leave.
The first thing that made me

379
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:58,900
think of doing that was Scott
Gordon.

380
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:02,000
He was the president of fair
gave a presentation a couple

381
00:23:02,008 --> 00:23:04,800
years ago at one of the fair
conferences where he went

382
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,900
through the first chapter, you
know, it was so long.

383
00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:08,900
He didn't have time to do
anything else, but he's so, you

384
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:12,000
went through the Book of Mormon
section and you showed all of

385
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,100
the things that were wrong with
it, and I went, so maybe to be

386
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:17,500
that for the whole thing
because, like, he went really

387
00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:19,800
comprehensive, he had graphics
and showing all of it and

388
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,300
everything.
I was like, somebody really

389
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:23,700
needs to go through that.
Just point by point.

390
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,000
Point.
And Put the same level of detail

391
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:32,100
into it that Scott did.
So that's kind of where it

392
00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:34,200
started and the prompting
wouldn't leave.

393
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,600
So after a couple of months I
finally reached out on Reddit

394
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,300
was like, would anybody be
interested in this?

395
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:42,700
And people said, yes.
So I started writing them and

396
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:46,800
they got way more attention than
I was anticipating and I was

397
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,500
expecting, you know, maybe five
to 10, people would read through

398
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:52,400
them and it would die out after
a couple of weeks and that would

399
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,700
be that and then that's not what
happened.

400
00:23:54,800 --> 00:24:02,200
And it just snowballed and then
one of my, my co-moderators who

401
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,000
was very well-meaning went and
started advertising it around

402
00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:11,900
Reddit to other places that I
was not advertising it to kind

403
00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:13,300
of trolls on the first couple of
posts.

404
00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:17,500
And I was like, okay, so then
they were aware that it was

405
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:19,800
happening.
And so then they kept an eye on

406
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,700
it and they kept trying to, to
comment on it and to Badger me

407
00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:28,500
Go ahead and kept, we were
flooded with trolls for a couple

408
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:31,500
of weeks and then they got, they
got bored and lost interest.

409
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,600
But other people weren't bored
and weren't losing interest and

410
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,700
they wanted to read them.
So I kept writing them and then

411
00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:42,900
it just went forever.
You know, there's so much of

412
00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:44,900
that part that I can relate to
this.

413
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,300
This whole podcast was born out
of me going, you know, someone

414
00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:51,900
should really do this and then
you know, I could tell you where

415
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:54,700
I was I was I was away from for
work.

416
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,700
And I like, I never sleep good
when I'm away from my family,

417
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,400
especially for work, because I'm
in a strange place and my, I

418
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,000
know my family's always away,
but I was in West Texas and just

419
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,000
thought about my journey.
How I got here to

420
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,800
fundamentalism?
I thought, you know, I wish I

421
00:25:11,808 --> 00:25:13,700
would have had someone, that
would have showed me how to do

422
00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:15,100
this, someone should really do
that.

423
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:17,600
And then it snowballs and then
the part where you say, you

424
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,600
know, maybe five to 10 people, I
think I had the same number when

425
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,100
I started this podcast.
It's, I often joke, I It would

426
00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:27,800
be me and eight other listeners,
and that would be it.

427
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,500
And it took on a life of its
own.

428
00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:32,700
And then you're like, you start
seeing your stuff posted by

429
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:36,000
other people on Facebook and
you're like, oh crap, right?

430
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,700
Like that was not supposed to
happen, so I can totally

431
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:42,700
identify with that.
And then the, and then the

432
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:45,100
trolls is well, right?
That's the other thing, the

433
00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:47,700
trolls come out and force,
right?

434
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:50,600
So you better have some thick
skin if you're going to drop

435
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:56,600
your hat in the public Arena
because people are ruthless So

436
00:25:57,100 --> 00:26:04,300
but so when you when did were
you guys seeing people come out

437
00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:07,000
of the woodwork saying, you
know, last week I was a strong

438
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,300
member of the LDS church or I
was a strong Mormon and then all

439
00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:13,300
of a sudden there on the other
side of that Spectrum now where

440
00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:16,500
they're like, I just read this
and now I'm doubting everything

441
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:19,300
was at that dramatic of a shift
where you seeing that sort of

442
00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:21,500
thing.
Yeah.

443
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:25,700
And I have had people message me
like Message me in the middle of

444
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:28,900
the night saying I was just
reading my scriptures and I came

445
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:31,100
across this roast and now I'm
spiraling and I don't know what

446
00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:36,100
to do and like it was that kind
of thing.

447
00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:39,000
But more.
So with the CES letter like

448
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,900
people be like I was just, you
know, my friend had some

449
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:44,000
questions I was trying to answer
them and I came across, you

450
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,700
know, they showed me what they
were reading and I what do I do

451
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:49,500
now?
I have no idea what to do and

452
00:26:49,500 --> 00:26:52,100
you just complete Panic.
They don't know what you don't

453
00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:53,200
know.
They don't know how to answer

454
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,500
any of it.
They don't know what to Say or

455
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:59,500
do they don't even know where to
begin to start researching it.

456
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:03,400
So that's why we felt, you know,
maybe it'd be good idea to point

457
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,400
people to where they can go to
find those answers that they

458
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,400
need.
Yeah, I can identify with that

459
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,500
too.
I started this podcast last

460
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:16,400
April and literally within weeks
under the banner of Heaven came

461
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,200
out and then and then a couple
months after that the the

462
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,200
Netflix special on Warren Jeffs
came out, right?

463
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,400
So I Like I was like
backpedaling a little bit, right

464
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,200
plot.
Trying to play defense a little

465
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,700
bit because I mean, especially
those two films.

466
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,700
I mean they had a lot to do with
fundamentalism, right?

467
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,700
And so all the sudden and not
only that, the one thing I

468
00:27:39,708 --> 00:27:42,900
wasn't prepared for was the
crossover, right?

469
00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:46,400
So I would have active LDS
people reach out to me.

470
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,900
Be like what's this Blood
atonement thing, right?

471
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:52,600
Or what's this?
Adam God thing and they're

472
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,500
freaked out and I think one of
the major misconceptions I deal

473
00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:59,900
with here on the podcast is, oh,
you must have an awful axe to

474
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:02,600
grind with the LDS church and
I'm like, not really.

475
00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:05,500
No, I enjoyed my time there, I
really did.

476
00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:09,300
I don't, I don't have an axe to
grind, so I wasn't prepared for

477
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:11,700
that.
Just the people who were like,

478
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,400
we're about stopped going to
church and all that other stuff.

479
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,900
I'm like, whoa, whoa.
Before you throw the baby out

480
00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:20,400
with the bathwater.
Let's break this down a little

481
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,400
bit.
And so we, yeah.

482
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,400
It It's a weird way, how the
Lord works, because one minute

483
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:29,900
you're pretty comfortable in the
next minute.

484
00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:32,600
You're right in the fire, but so
there's a lot there.

485
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,200
I can identify with Sarah.
So you decide you're going to

486
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,000
sit down, you're going to write
this rebuttal.

487
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,400
Did you have this idea that
would be one big rebuttal or did

488
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,500
you think you were going to take
it in sections and what you

489
00:28:47,508 --> 00:28:54,600
ultimately end up settling on
No, very, very early on.

490
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,300
I was thinking it would be cool
to have, you know, I would post

491
00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:01,800
my thoughts and then have other
people post their resources and

492
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,100
their thoughts and just kind of
create a big library of stuff

493
00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:08,300
that people could be a point
people to, and that's not really

494
00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:13,900
what happened.
And then I was not planning on

495
00:29:13,900 --> 00:29:17,700
doing like a line-by-line thing.
And if you go look at some of

496
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:19,400
the earlier, post that they're
not line by line.

497
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,700
I'm just, you know, referencing
at this point, he said this and

498
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:27,200
you know, here he was talking
about this, and I don't really

499
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,300
go through and and post it word
for word or anything, because I

500
00:29:31,308 --> 00:29:32,800
wasn't planning on doing that.
I was just going to do an

501
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,200
overview of each section.
And I wasn't thinking it would

502
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,300
take very long and then that it
kind of turned into people were

503
00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:43,700
asking more specific questions
about specific things that he

504
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:46,700
said that I kind of skimmed over
and so I was like, okay I guess

505
00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:49,400
we better, you know, start going
through it a little bit more.

506
00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:53,700
Or and, you know, at first, I
was intending to just focus on

507
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:57,900
like the big issues, like the
major lies and distortions that

508
00:29:57,900 --> 00:30:02,300
I could see in it.
But then, as I was going through

509
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:06,800
some of it, it was like, every
single sentence was wrong, and

510
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,700
he did a response of some kind
and I just kind of went from

511
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:13,700
there.
And so, Gotcha.

512
00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:19,000
This is supposed to be a series
of like ten to twelve posts just

513
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,500
going over to like the major
highlights and stuff and then it

514
00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:24,700
ended up being like 70 post long
and it took over a year and it

515
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:28,000
was insane.
So, wow.

516
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:33,200
Wow, so you talk in there, you
just said real quick, you know,

517
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:39,200
excuse me, that that the more
you read, the more lies and

518
00:30:39,208 --> 00:30:42,800
distortions you found, what were
some of the biggest Ones that

519
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,100
you found in there, I found
things like he was plagiarizing

520
00:30:48,100 --> 00:30:51,000
entire passages out of town
Palmer's book without citing

521
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,400
them.
Grandpa Palmer is an Annex

522
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,200
member of the LDS church who
used to work in the church

523
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,000
educational system and then
retired wrote an anti moment

524
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:08,400
book and left.
And so that was it's an

525
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,000
Insider's view of Mormon origins
or something.

526
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,000
Yep.
It's fairly popular and I

527
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:20,400
experiment circles and there are
several plagiarize passages of

528
00:31:20,408 --> 00:31:22,900
that.
That I was seeing there were

529
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:28,100
things like he he was like,
isn't it so convenient that the

530
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:31,300
Book of Mormon was first
published in Sharon Vermont,

531
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:34,100
when you know, Oliver cowdery
lived right next door over in

532
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:38,600
this?
Whatever counties, right next

533
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,700
door to Rutledge County, and
you're like the Book of Mormon,

534
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:45,500
it wasn't first published in
Sharing Vermont, has published

535
00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:47,800
in Palmyra.
Everybody knows that, you know,

536
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,400
so the little things like that
and then there were other things

537
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,800
where I noticed, he would say
something and not back it up,

538
00:31:56,900 --> 00:31:58,800
and then he would just keep
repeating it over and over

539
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,300
again.
Like, it was a fact when he

540
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:04,400
hadn't said anything to support
it and it was something that I

541
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,400
knew Was not true, but I had
plenty of sources.

542
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,700
I could point to that said, the
exact opposite of what he was

543
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:14,400
saying.
So they're a little things like

544
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,100
that.
And then there were other things

545
00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:21,400
where it was just the wording
where he was using.

546
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,700
Like the most inflammatory
language he could think of.

547
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:29,800
And so I was pointing out some
of those tactics like the phrase

548
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,200
that he was using and like some
of the fallacies that he was

549
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,200
coming from and things like
that.

550
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,700
And people responded to that as
well.

551
00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:42,300
They wanted to know more of what
was being distorted and how it

552
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:45,800
was being distorted and what to
spot for when they were reading

553
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,700
that kind of material.
Gotcha, gotcha.

554
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,500
So, how about specific issues,
what kind of specific issues can

555
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:56,600
you look back on and go, okay?
That's just patently false.

556
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,700
Whether whether he intended to
lie or whether he was just

557
00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:03,900
mistaken, whatever it is, I
always like to give everyone the

558
00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:07,300
benefit of the doubt, but, It's
what were some of the biggest

559
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:12,100
just out-and-out?
wrong ideas that were contained

560
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:18,000
within the in his letter there,
there was a big one on the book

561
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,100
of Abraham where he he, he just
kept saying over and over again,

562
00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:30,900
that the book of Abraham was
based on the Papyrus one which

563
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:34,600
is what is now called the
fragments that were near

564
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:43,100
facsimile 1, on the fragments
that we have, No lbs scholar

565
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,200
actually believes that.
That is something that non-lds

566
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,300
collars, really push, but it's
not something that any LDS

567
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:54,000
scholar, the particularly the
egyptologists, believe it all

568
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,800
because there was a lot more
papyri than what we still exist

569
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,700
today.
We know that from the records.

570
00:34:01,700 --> 00:34:05,500
There were records that were
lost in the Great Chicago Fire,

571
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,300
right?
So know where the book of

572
00:34:08,300 --> 00:34:11,199
Abraham came from.
We can't say, oh He took it from

573
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,500
those characters, right there
because there's nothing that

574
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:16,000
says that they came from those
characters.

575
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,100
By their Joseph Smith, we have
record of him saying in a speech

576
00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:25,000
in Nauvoo, right before his
death that he translated the the

577
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,100
roles of papyri that were in his
house at the time.

578
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,500
Yeah, something.
That was a big one.

579
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,100
The enactment Holmes was another
big one.

580
00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:39,699
Before we move on to the
anachronisms, I want to go ahead

581
00:34:39,699 --> 00:34:42,199
and talk about.
Book Abraham because that seems

582
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:47,600
to be a big focal point now on,
which all the experts are coming

583
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:53,199
hard for and and you're exactly
right if I'm not mistaken and I

584
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:55,000
could be wrong.
You probably know better than I

585
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,300
think.
Someone said that some of those

586
00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:01,200
Scrolls were were in the excess
of 10 feet long, right?

587
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:06,700
I mean these were these were big
Scrolls and they are correct.

588
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,300
And the terms that that some of
the characters that are

589
00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:12,700
referenced within the Act
similes are from the Egyptian

590
00:35:12,700 --> 00:35:15,900
Book of the Dead, But we would
expect to find that because if

591
00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:18,800
we know anything about Egyptian
culture, it's that you wanted

592
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,500
that Book of the Dead as you
passed when you were Egyptian

593
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:25,300
because that was your guidebook,
the idea was you take that with

594
00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:27,300
you.
That would be your guide book to

595
00:35:27,300 --> 00:35:31,200
get through to the other side
and it wasn't nearly as long as

596
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,900
what all these other accounts
are that Joseph Smith had and

597
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:38,400
then you have the fire.
So it's really convenient to

598
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,600
point to these one fact, similes
that that In my estimation put

599
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,400
into our scriptures as at least
being like look this is what we

600
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,600
found right?
I mean doing honest historical

601
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:56,100
work, I while I'm not a trained
historian, I did do a little bit

602
00:35:56,100 --> 00:36:00,100
of work when I lived on the
Eastern Shore where we would,

603
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,400
I'm land surveyor by profession.
So we would go and do some

604
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,700
mapping mapping on the digs,
they were doing.

605
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,300
And I remember this professor
told me once.

606
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:10,400
No one can ever called you a
liar for show.

607
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:14,000
On what you found, right?
And so in this effort to be

608
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,300
transparent, at least in my
estimation, those get put into

609
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:22,100
the scriptures and then all the
sudden because people make

610
00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:25,200
assumptions we conclude, oh, he
must this must have been the

611
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,900
whole document, and that's just
not the case.

612
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:30,200
As you said, a lot of it was
burnt up in that Chicago Fire.

613
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,800
Yes, yeah, chunky put out a
formula.

614
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:41,900
He is like the standard formula
that To be charged us will use

615
00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:48,000
to determine scroll length and
he estimated that it would the

616
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,300
missing portion would have been
somewhere between like 12 to 20

617
00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:54,000
additional feet.
Something like that.

618
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,300
I could be way off.
I haven't read that article in a

619
00:36:56,300 --> 00:37:02,000
while, but there's also a story
that got passed around like

620
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,800
fourth hand.
I think, by the time, we finally

621
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:10,400
came out to be public but it was
Joseph.

622
00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:16,100
Joseph F Smith as a child.
He remembered scienza roll

623
00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:21,200
unraveled in his family home.
You know, his his father was

624
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:25,400
Hyrum Smith, his grandfather's
Hyrum Smith and he remembered

625
00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:31,500
like having that unraveled in
his house and it went from one

626
00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:34,600
end of the room, clear to the
other end of the house, like it

627
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,200
was a week l.
And we don't have anything like

628
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:40,700
that.
We don't have a couple of loose

629
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:42,800
pages and scraps.
You know?

630
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,600
And we know there's stuff that
we don't have because we don't

631
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,800
have the originals of effect
similes two or three Right.

632
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,500
Also have characters that Oliver
cowdery wrote down in a book

633
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,500
that we don't have any trace of
that.

634
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:58,300
Scroll left, it's completely
gone.

635
00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:01,100
So we know that stuff that
businessing that we don't have.

636
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:07,200
Wow, well, okay, let's move on
to the anachronisms real quick

637
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:12,000
for anyone who doesn't know,
explain what in anachronism is

638
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,300
please.
Okay, sure.

639
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,400
So the Book of Mormon mentioned
things like barley, and And

640
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,600
horses and things.
Where, for a while it looked

641
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,200
like those did not exist in the
Americas during that time.

642
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,300
So there historically
inaccurate, but more evidence

643
00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:32,900
has come out over time.
That shows that most of those

644
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:36,600
things actually were in the
Americas particularly in the

645
00:38:36,607 --> 00:38:39,300
Mesoamerican region during the
time period that many fights

646
00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:42,500
would have lived.
So a lot of the stuff that he

647
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:44,900
claimed his anachronisms have
now been found.

648
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,700
Including her forms.
Yep.

649
00:38:48,900 --> 00:38:49,900
Yep.
That was a big one.

650
00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:52,200
I remember when that came out I
want say it was just two or

651
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:53,800
three months ago if I'm not
mistaken.

652
00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:54,900
Yeah.
Yeah.

653
00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:58,100
They just put out two different
papers in a couple of scientific

654
00:38:58,100 --> 00:39:01,900
journals, talking all about it.
So when you had to go try to

655
00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:08,200
debunk those in anachronisms.
Did you were they hard to find

656
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,200
where they fairly easy to find
that sort of thing?

657
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,000
We're pretty easy, like for
wheat.

658
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,700
Wheat was one of them that was
mentioned as being inaccurate.

659
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:24,300
But if you look at in the
Mesoamerican area in particular,

660
00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:28,900
there's a grain called amarant
that looks like red wheat.

661
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:32,900
That the Aztecs would grind down
and use as we will be that we

662
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:37,000
use weed and it was going to
staple grains and it had been

663
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,900
there for generations and it
looks just like red weed.

664
00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:44,600
There are other things like
swine and, you know, you have

665
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,000
little javelinas and peccaries
and you know, whatever you want

666
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:50,900
to help them.
They look like little furry

667
00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:53,500
pigs.
And there were things like

668
00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:57,200
barley, for a long time.
Barley was thought, not to exist

669
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:04,200
in the Americas before before
Columbus came, but they have

670
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:09,200
found 10 plus sites of what they
calls, small barley, or little

671
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,400
barley, that was native to the
Americas.

672
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:15,300
As prior to European
colonization.

673
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:22,200
So Because they had read some of
that stuff before I knew, where

674
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,700
some of it was, but I did have
to go digging for others and,

675
00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:27,500
you know, I just Google the
bunch of stuff and I came up

676
00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:30,100
with a bunch of things, you
really just need to know where

677
00:40:30,100 --> 00:40:33,000
to look.
I read a couple of papers on

678
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,700
Fair and some of the old Farms
research Farms was another group

679
00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:41,800
that eventually became the
Maxwell Institute for those who

680
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,400
don't know, right?
So he, if I remember correctly

681
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:50,200
from the letter, he he takes
after Joseph Smith pretty hard,

682
00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:53,900
right?
He goes after him really hard on

683
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:58,000
issues like, plural marriage,
things like, you know, hit the

684
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,500
authenticity of the Book of
Mormon, he just really tears

685
00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:04,200
into him.
What were some of you?

686
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,500
What were some of his major
criticisms?

687
00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:09,100
And then how did you defend
those, what was your ideas?

688
00:41:11,300 --> 00:41:15,500
So for marriage, was obviously a
big one and so I went through a

689
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:17,800
lot of history and northern
Maine thing.

690
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,900
I pointed out was that there is
no evidence of any kind of

691
00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:27,800
sexual relations for the wives
that were civilly, married to

692
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,500
other men or for the, the
younger teenagers.

693
00:41:31,100 --> 00:41:33,100
In fact, we have evidence from
several of them saying that,

694
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:34,900
there were no sexual relations
at all.

695
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:43,100
In those another one that he
talked about a lot again, I'll

696
00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:46,200
so back in those days ceilings
and marriages were two

697
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,900
completely different things.
You know, today, normally but

698
00:41:50,100 --> 00:41:53,700
historically they weren't, they
were two completely separate

699
00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:55,800
things.
So when Joseph would refer to

700
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,900
them as His wives, most of the
time they were ceilings and they

701
00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:03,300
were ceilings for the next life.
Some of them were obviously

702
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:07,700
marriages for time and for
eternity but most of them were

703
00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:12,300
ceilings for the next life only,
As far as we can tell by any of

704
00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:16,100
the records but that have been
left behind so that is something

705
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:18,200
to point out because, you know,
he gets called a pedophile.

706
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,600
Like, it's called a pervert.
Like he has called all kinds of

707
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,900
things and you know, the
evidence just doesn't support

708
00:42:23,900 --> 00:42:27,800
any of that.
No, sorry.

709
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,600
I just wanted to explore this a
little more.

710
00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:35,600
I had a buddy who and this was
just a couple months ago who's a

711
00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:39,500
an active member of the LDS
church and he was he was really

712
00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:42,200
struggling.
This idea that Joseph Smith was

713
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,700
a pedophile that he was stealing
other men's wives, that sort of

714
00:42:46,707 --> 00:42:49,300
thing.
Right now, I'm a convert to

715
00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:52,600
Mormonism period, right?
Like, there's nobody else on

716
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,200
either side of my family, it's
just me.

717
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,600
So, I have to rely a lot on my
own personal studies write my

718
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,300
own in, you know, diving into
history and you're right.

719
00:43:02,300 --> 00:43:05,000
We know, Joseph Smith was
capable of having children,

720
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,300
right?
His marriage to Emma points that

721
00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:11,700
out.
I find it interesting that we

722
00:43:11,700 --> 00:43:16,400
really can't at all.
Find any evidence that he had

723
00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:19,200
children with another man's
wife.

724
00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:23,300
Right.
We would expect to see that the

725
00:43:23,300 --> 00:43:26,800
other thing that that he was
really freaked out about was his

726
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,900
marriage to this 14 year old
girl, right?

727
00:43:30,500 --> 00:43:32,600
Yep.
And I was like, okay let's just

728
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,000
assume the worst.
Let's say there was a marital

729
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,900
activity that happened there.
For that time period.

730
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:43,700
While yes on the younger side,
it wasn't uncommon.

731
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:45,400
It was up to ten percent.
Right.

732
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,700
So this idea that we're going to
judge him based on our 21st

733
00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:53,100
Century Century values, that
doesn't hold water in history

734
00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:57,000
period, because we're dealing
with a different time, a

735
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,200
different people, and that has
to be accounted for.

736
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,300
And it's one of those things
that's just infuriating to me,

737
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,900
that it's not.
The other thing I would say is

738
00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:13,000
that, if there was relations are
again with, with the married

739
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,800
women and Helen Mark, Kimball we
should expect to see children,

740
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:23,300
and we just don't And Helen
Campbell in her autobiography,

741
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:26,600
she actually said that it was
for eternity alone.

742
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,400
So she said I mean you could
probably read that a different

743
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,500
way if you were really strained
into but she said it that it was

744
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,600
a ceiling for the next life but
you're absolutely right about

745
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,700
the marriage age is particularly
on the frontier and Kirtland and

746
00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:44,900
Nabu.
And Salt Lake were absolutely on

747
00:44:44,900 --> 00:44:48,400
the American frontier during
different times in our country's

748
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,600
history.
And particularly when the saints

749
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,400
were living there.
So you are absolutely right.

750
00:44:55,700 --> 00:44:58,000
That younger marriage is on.
The Frontiers were common.

751
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,300
They weren't as comment on the
east coast in the big cities,

752
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:03,100
but on the frontier they were
very common.

753
00:45:03,700 --> 00:45:07,300
Yeah, yeah.
Perfect.

754
00:45:07,700 --> 00:45:11,000
I just all of his wives were of
legal marriageable age during

755
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:19,200
that time period, right, right?
Yeah, it's, I find it, to be

756
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,800
honest with you, it's one of two
things, either, your you're

757
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,700
intellectually dishonest when
you make that, claim of Joseph

758
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:29,000
Smith, being a pedophile, or
your woefully ignorant of

759
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:36,400
cultural norms of that time
given the time and place and and

760
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,500
That's one where where?
I took exception to a little

761
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:45,300
more because I didn't feel it
was a fair critique.

762
00:45:45,300 --> 00:45:49,200
And what I mean by fair is that
no research went into that

763
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:53,500
whatsoever.
That was just that was just pure

764
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:59,900
garbage, being spewed.
Yeah, yeah, I get that studying

765
00:45:59,900 --> 00:46:01,400
history isn't everybody's
favorite thing?

766
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:05,000
So I completely understand you
know not being up to date on

767
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,700
historical research and not
really understanding what life

768
00:46:08,700 --> 00:46:12,500
was like in the mid-1800s.
Totally get that.

769
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,100
I personally love history.
I'm, I'm pretty nerdy.

770
00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:21,700
Absolutely love history.
So for me, that was stuff I

771
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:25,400
already kind of knew and I just
had to build on that a little

772
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:29,800
bit.
But I completely understand, not

773
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,600
knowing that.
The thing is though, that is a

774
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,700
logical fallacy called
presentism where you judge

775
00:46:36,700 --> 00:46:39,900
societies and cultures and
people of the past by today's

776
00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:42,200
standards and today's Tanager
completely different.

777
00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:44,600
If we had lived back then or
Sanders will be completely

778
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,600
different to, right, right.
Yeah.

779
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,000
And when I, when I phrase that
to my buddy, I was like, look,

780
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:55,600
let's just say Emma died.
Let's say Joseph never

781
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,500
introduced.
Look at me, plural.

782
00:46:57,500 --> 00:46:59,700
Marriage.
And then he married a 14 year

783
00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:03,300
old girl, how would you feel?
Well, that's a little different,

784
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:07,000
exactly, right.
Let's let's put this all into

785
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,600
context.
Let's let's play a little.

786
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:13,100
Let's play a few mind games.
So to speak and say, well, what

787
00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:16,900
if this, what if that and then
find out really where you're

788
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:20,800
where you're biased lies?
Because I think that speaks

789
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,800
volumes.
So, I completely agree with you

790
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:29,900
on that.
So, um, what else did he level,

791
00:47:29,900 --> 00:47:33,500
as criticisms.
Against Joseph Smith, what were

792
00:47:33,500 --> 00:47:37,200
some of his other big ones and
the different accounts of the

793
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,900
first Vision with the big one?
He was very upset about that.

794
00:47:40,900 --> 00:47:44,800
The biggest thing though was the
Book of Mormon translation using

795
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,400
his personal Seer stone for
relation.

796
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,600
Jeremy had a big problem with
that.

797
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,100
And it came up over and over and
over and over and over and over,

798
00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:54,700
and over again throughout the
whole letter.

799
00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:59,000
He just kept referring back to
the Rock and the hat as he calls

800
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:03,100
it.
And how You know why were they

801
00:48:03,700 --> 00:48:06,300
the nephite interpreters even
there if he wasn't going to use

802
00:48:06,300 --> 00:48:10,800
them, that kind of thing.
So those who baby what was your

803
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,800
rebuttal to that one?
The the rock in the Hat and that

804
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:19,100
sort of thing.
Well I first came across that

805
00:48:19,100 --> 00:48:22,500
when I was about 12 years old, I
was reading a cut, my parents

806
00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:26,800
copy the Ensign and president
Nelson who is the leader of the

807
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,200
LDS church, right now was an
apostle at the time and he gave

808
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:35,100
a speech to some Mission
presidents about 100 of them and

809
00:48:35,100 --> 00:48:38,100
ask them to spread the
information out to their

810
00:48:38,100 --> 00:48:43,300
missionaries and in that speech
which was reprinted in the

811
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:46,800
Ensign a few months later.
So, he went through and he

812
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,400
talked about how Joseph Smith
used his personal Caesarstone

813
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,900
and how it was in possession of
the church at, like they had it

814
00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:57,300
in the archives right then.
And that Joseph, he used it and

815
00:48:57,300 --> 00:49:00,100
put it in his hat and looked at
his hat to block out the light.

816
00:49:00,100 --> 00:49:02,300
And I went I never heard that
before.

817
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:07,700
So that was and at first I was I
was really surprised and

818
00:49:07,700 --> 00:49:10,100
confused and then it
immediately.

819
00:49:10,100 --> 00:49:13,800
It was like, within five minutes
the spirit just said does it

820
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:18,500
matter And I thought about it
and I meant, no guess not

821
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:21,700
because you know, either way
he's using a Seer Stone.

822
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:25,400
Either way, he's translated by
Revelation doesn't really matter

823
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,100
what Stony used.
You know, if you used one and a

824
00:49:28,107 --> 00:49:33,300
half versus to in the spectacles
I mean they work the same way so

825
00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:35,700
doesn't have her.
Now it didn't matter to me.

826
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:46,200
Right, it does to other people.
So I think that so I have a

827
00:49:46,207 --> 00:49:49,600
buddy who, who's not Mormon at
all.

828
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,500
And I remember we were talking
about this.

829
00:49:53,500 --> 00:49:56,100
He's like, I just gotta say, I
think it's one of the most metal

830
00:49:56,100 --> 00:49:59,700
stories out of all of Mormonism.
I think it's cool, right?

831
00:49:59,900 --> 00:50:07,500
And I was like, okay, alright,
good on you but so, So did this

832
00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:11,000
he ever attack modern-day
leaders of the LDS church does?

833
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,800
He attacked that movement?
Yeah.

834
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,500
Yeah.
He has a whole section on

835
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:20,500
profits and he does in that one.
He avoids Joseph Smith so much

836
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:23,500
but he goes from Brigham Young
onwards and goes after all of

837
00:50:23,508 --> 00:50:32,200
them including the our president
and apostles today, he went

838
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,700
after a bunch of them from the
90s 80s, president Hinckley

839
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:46,600
human, after when after present
hoax but after President Packer

840
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,700
that boy a packer and be like an
axe while he went after a whole

841
00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:58,000
bunch of them.
So in that it was mostly you

842
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,700
know pointing out that some of
them have made mistakes in the

843
00:51:01,707 --> 00:51:05,200
past like he was talking about
Adam God and blood atonement and

844
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,500
things like that and he brought
up the the priesthood

845
00:51:09,500 --> 00:51:16,900
restriction and just you know
today he So for that one the

846
00:51:16,900 --> 00:51:19,100
priest of restriction is
obviously a complicated

847
00:51:19,100 --> 00:51:22,900
difficult topic to us.
So I don't know how deep you

848
00:51:22,908 --> 00:51:26,200
want to go into that but you
know, Jeremy went after it

849
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:33,200
pretty hard and you know, you
just have to point out First of

850
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,700
all, the Journal of discourses
where all of those sermons are

851
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:41,900
from that, he was quoting, you
know, those have been edited

852
00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:47,200
over the year, the the
transcriptionists and the

853
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:50,600
reporters.
They copied them down word for

854
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,800
word and then they edited them
completely and added their own

855
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,700
thoughts and edited like
changed.

856
00:51:55,700 --> 00:51:58,500
All the wordings got huge
portions of it and everything

857
00:51:58,700 --> 00:52:01,100
when they were preparing them
for publication.

858
00:52:01,100 --> 00:52:05,700
And so Original one that we have
are completely different from

859
00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:10,900
the sermons that were given.
And we can prove that because we

860
00:52:10,900 --> 00:52:15,200
have a small group of them that
have been since the original

861
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,000
transcripts, have since been
transcribed from shorthand into

862
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,600
readable English and they are
completely different.

863
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,800
So we didn't know that for the
longest time, but now we do and

864
00:52:27,300 --> 00:52:32,100
you can't really base things off
of what may not have actually

865
00:52:32,100 --> 00:52:35,000
been said.
So that is something to keep in

866
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:40,000
mind and another thing to keep
in mind is, you know, profits

867
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,600
are human too.
And we all make mistakes and

868
00:52:43,607 --> 00:52:46,100
make tons of mistakes, I'm not
going to hold them up as being

869
00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:48,900
perfect and expect them to not
make mistakes that I would make.

870
00:52:49,100 --> 00:52:53,900
All right.
But you know that is a common

871
00:52:53,900 --> 00:52:57,800
criticism that they do expect
profits to be pretty infallible

872
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:03,700
and I don't know why.
Yeah, it to me that that one

873
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:10,700
boggles my mind that you would
You would put a you would

874
00:53:10,700 --> 00:53:14,400
describe a level of godliness to
a mortal, right?

875
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,400
And that's, that's essentially
what you're doing.

876
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,300
When you say they should be
infallible, you are basically

877
00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:24,200
saying, look, here's the thing,
you know, they're, they're men

878
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,700
at the end of the day, they're
dudes, right?

879
00:53:26,700 --> 00:53:29,800
And they're dudes with a
calling, right?

880
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,600
Because because in my church, we
have a prophet and a leader.

881
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:38,600
I think he's a great guy, but I
don't, you know, I would never

882
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:43,300
try to have my expectations be
to Perfection, right?

883
00:53:43,300 --> 00:53:48,000
That's not fair to my testimony
and that's certainly not fair to

884
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,300
my leader, right?
That's not fair to him.

885
00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:53,100
He doesn't deserve that he's
doing the best he can in his

886
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:56,100
calling just like I'm doing the
best I can in mind.

887
00:53:56,100 --> 00:54:01,200
And I'm often surprised at the
lack of Grace that's extended to

888
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:04,200
people.
The other thing I'll say is if

889
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,700
you're looking for perfection in
a prophet, good luck because

890
00:54:06,700 --> 00:54:09,300
it's not Up there, it's not
there in the Old Testament.

891
00:54:09,300 --> 00:54:11,500
It's not there in the New
Testament, right?

892
00:54:11,500 --> 00:54:15,000
You have Moses, it kills a dude,
you got Jonah that runs from

893
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:20,100
God, you've got, you know,
you've got Peter who denies

894
00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:24,800
Christ and all of them, the Lord
continues till you to use,

895
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,200
right?
But for whatever reason.

896
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,000
And again, I think some of its
presentism, right?

897
00:54:30,100 --> 00:54:34,600
We tend to be way harder on on
Latter-Day leaders, whether

898
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,800
that's Joseph Smith and members
of the LDS Church.

899
00:54:36,900 --> 00:54:39,800
Church or leaders of the LDS
church or Joseph Smith and

900
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,900
Brigham Young and fundamentalist
leaders.

901
00:54:42,900 --> 00:54:46,600
We tend to be way harder on them
and I think it's because they're

902
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,700
this close so to speak in
history, right there?

903
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:53,700
Right here.
And and we tend to to look past

904
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,800
the the errors of of older
profits in the scriptures and I

905
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:03,100
find that an interesting to
cottam, so do I?

906
00:55:03,100 --> 00:55:06,100
And that is something that comes
up in the scriptures to like,

907
00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:10,100
they There are a couple of
verses throughout the scriptures

908
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:14,300
that talk about how people look
at past profits and and they

909
00:55:14,300 --> 00:55:17,500
ignore the present ones.
And several of our leaders have

910
00:55:17,500 --> 00:55:21,700
said that, I think it was
President, Kimball who said, you

911
00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:26,400
know, they they praised the the
prophets of the past will be

912
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,000
mentally, Stone, the living
ones, you know, and that happens

913
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,300
over and over and over again
throughout the the scriptures

914
00:55:32,300 --> 00:55:36,000
and throughout our history.
And I agree, I think it is a

915
00:55:36,008 --> 00:55:39,300
lack of Grace and Truth.
Charity, and I think that it is

916
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:44,100
very strange too.
Hold them to a different

917
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:48,200
standard than you'd hold
yourself to right, right, yeah.

918
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,800
No, I absolutely agree.
So, you kind of collect all this

919
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,000
data, right?
And you're like, okay, I'm ready

920
00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:55,500
to go.
You sit down your keyboard and

921
00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:59,200
you you type it up.
What are you thinking before?

922
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,000
You publish that first one?
Because because that's always a

923
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,800
different thing, right?
Because by now, the CES letter

924
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:08,000
is called fire.
It is moving white like a

925
00:56:08,008 --> 00:56:11,100
wildfire, in a grassland.
There's it seems like there's no

926
00:56:11,100 --> 00:56:12,800
way to contain it.
What's your first thought?

927
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,000
As you're getting ready to hit
the post button, so, to speak,

928
00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:21,900
when I prayed real hard first, I
prayed before writing, all of

929
00:56:21,908 --> 00:56:26,000
them, and I was like, I don't
even have any idea how best to

930
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,000
start this.
So, how do you want me to start

931
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:32,000
it?
And the first thing that came to

932
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,300
my mind was to point out, you
know, that the discrepancies

933
00:56:36,300 --> 00:56:39,200
between what Jeremy was saying
publicly.

934
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,700
And what he was saying, on the
ex moment, subreddit was friends

935
00:56:41,900 --> 00:56:42,900
because there were a lot of
discussions.

936
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:47,000
Currencies.
And I think and that wasn't so

937
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:51,300
much to attack Journey, but it
was to point out that this thing

938
00:56:51,300 --> 00:56:53,600
that you are holding up as
scripture in the sky, you're

939
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:56,600
holding up as your ex Mormon
prophet or not.

940
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:04,900
Actually, What you think they
are and if he's lying about that

941
00:57:04,900 --> 00:57:07,500
or he's being dishonest or he
shading the truth or however you

942
00:57:07,500 --> 00:57:10,400
want to say it you know, he's
making himself look better than

943
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:12,700
his whatever you know.
I mean everybody does that to

944
00:57:12,700 --> 00:57:17,300
some degree.
So you know what, whatever face

945
00:57:17,300 --> 00:57:19,700
he's putting on it, if that is
not true.

946
00:57:19,900 --> 00:57:21,500
How can you trust the content of
it?

947
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:26,900
So that was my pointless to say,
you know, this isn't necessarily

948
00:57:26,900 --> 00:57:32,600
what it comes across as And when
I posted it, I did not advertise

949
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,800
it.
I just posted it in my subreddit

950
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:41,900
and I was not aware that one of
my other moderator friends was

951
00:57:41,900 --> 00:57:44,300
passing it around to all of the
different lbs related,

952
00:57:44,300 --> 00:57:46,700
communities on Reddit and
saying, hey come, come read,

953
00:57:46,700 --> 00:57:49,500
this, come comment and I was
like, oh look, don't do that.

954
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:58,600
That brought a ton of of fire
down on us.

955
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:03,400
I was a little nervous about it,
but I figured, you know, five to

956
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,200
ten people would comment, it
might bring out a couple of

957
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:07,500
extra trolls just because of the
topic because, you know, it's

958
00:58:07,500 --> 00:58:11,400
the CES letter.
I was not expecting more than

959
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:16,100
100 trolls to come attack us,
and like, it was bad, it was

960
00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:20,200
just a nightmare thinking for a
couple of weeks and there was

961
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,800
tons of recreating, you know,
where it would.

962
00:58:22,900 --> 00:58:25,400
Post it around to others subs,
and then encourage everybody to

963
00:58:25,408 --> 00:58:27,800
come flood.
Our sub with trolling comments

964
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:34,100
and stuff and I got a couple of
DM's and all kinds of stuff and

965
00:58:34,100 --> 00:58:38,000
I was like, I have, this is kind
of what I was hoping to avoid.

966
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:44,000
But okay, so for the first
poster to I came to argue back

967
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:45,300
and then I was like that's a bad
idea.

968
00:58:45,300 --> 00:58:52,200
I need to stop doing that.
I only went because I've been

969
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:53,900
there.
I Get it right?

970
00:58:53,900 --> 00:58:56,500
That that's a laugh of
experience where you're like

971
00:58:57,500 --> 00:58:59,800
these days.
I'm like posting ghost.

972
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,000
That's my go-to, right?
Because there's no change in

973
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,700
anybody's mind.
My hope is my stuff gets to

974
00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:07,900
somebody who's on the fence.
Right?

975
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,400
Well yeah, I will respond to
people who are neutral or

976
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,000
positive.
I will not respond to trolls

977
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,400
anymore.
I've learned my lesson real fast

978
00:59:16,100 --> 00:59:20,100
so that was kind of a bunch of
trepidation on that one.

979
00:59:20,100 --> 00:59:22,700
I was hoping it would go, mostly
unnoticed.

980
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,500
Except for, by the members of
our subreddit and it didn't.

981
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:29,000
And and there were just as many
on the next one.

982
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:33,800
And they all kept saying, you
know, Well, why are you talking

983
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:35,600
about Jeremy?
Why aren't you talking about the

984
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:38,400
content of the CES letter?
Because you can't write and I

985
00:59:38,408 --> 00:59:41,100
was like it's a very first thing
I said was this is going to be a

986
00:59:41,100 --> 00:59:43,200
series.
This is the first post in the

987
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:47,200
series that we're going to do
and that you know, we would talk

988
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:51,800
about that in a week or two and
they just completely missed it

989
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,400
and they so he had to just keep
pointing it out.

990
00:59:54,700 --> 00:59:57,700
This is the first one be
patient, we will address the

991
00:59:57,700 --> 01:00:04,200
content in full as we go along.
but yeah, mostly it was just a

992
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:10,500
lot of nerves that Thankfully
there was enough good commentary

993
01:00:10,500 --> 01:00:12,900
as well.
That I felt like it was

994
01:00:12,900 --> 01:00:19,500
beneficial to keep going and
pretty quick that the trolls did

995
01:00:19,500 --> 01:00:21,800
lose interest and drop off
pretty fast.

996
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,900
There's only one time.
Shouldn't say this.

997
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:35,800
What I've noticed is that if you
don't feed the trolls, they stop

998
01:00:35,800 --> 01:00:40,400
coming, right?
If you feed them by, you know,

999
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,200
engaging with them, they're just
right there.

1000
01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:49,000
But the second you just are like
And you don't post back and you

1001
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,200
just post and ghost.
They go away.

1002
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,800
They go away very frustrated,
but they go away.

1003
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:02,000
Yeah, the Mormon subreddit.
Yeah, there are a bunch of very

1004
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:07,800
similar names, but the Mormon
subreddit for a while was

1005
01:01:07,900 --> 01:01:11,000
posting weekly rebuttals to my
rebuttals because they were

1006
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:15,100
people who had previously been
banned on our sub for bad

1007
01:01:15,100 --> 01:01:17,300
behavior.
So they weren't allowed to post

1008
01:01:17,300 --> 01:01:19,600
on ourselves and so that was
really the only place that they

1009
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,300
could do it was on their side.
And I was like, that's fine but

1010
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,300
you know, more power to you if
you want to talk about it that's

1011
01:01:25,300 --> 01:01:27,300
fine.
I just didn't want to

1012
01:01:27,300 --> 01:01:31,500
participate in their
conversation so they kept trying

1013
01:01:31,500 --> 01:01:33,200
to drag me into and they did
that for a while.

1014
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:39,800
It was like go through the
Couple of sections out of they

1015
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,900
would post and I was and I still
get random.

1016
01:01:41,900 --> 01:01:44,500
They still do random posts
against my stuff now.

1017
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:50,200
And that's why, you know, they
can do what they want, but for

1018
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:54,200
the most part, the trolls died
off very fast when once we

1019
01:01:54,207 --> 01:01:59,100
stopped engaging with them.
What did your family have to

1020
01:01:59,100 --> 01:02:02,300
deal with any of that blowback
from you posting on there at

1021
01:02:02,300 --> 01:02:06,100
all?
No, they don't really know about

1022
01:02:06,100 --> 01:02:10,300
it for the first like, six
months or so, until it started

1023
01:02:10,300 --> 01:02:12,400
when they started posting them
on Fair, they were under my real

1024
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:14,400
name and they have my picture on
it.

1025
01:02:14,700 --> 01:02:20,300
And so I had to tell them that
that was coming and mostly they

1026
01:02:20,300 --> 01:02:24,100
got good commentary.
There were some threats made

1027
01:02:24,100 --> 01:02:27,700
against me and against some
members of my family but my name

1028
01:02:27,700 --> 01:02:29,400
is super generic.
So unless you have more

1029
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:33,200
information, I'm very hard to
Google so that is good.

1030
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,900
But mostly most of the attacks
were over social media.

1031
01:02:38,900 --> 01:02:41,200
They tried to Doc's me on the
Mormon subreddit.

1032
01:02:41,500 --> 01:02:45,900
She had they failed miserably,
does the for my name was on it

1033
01:02:45,900 --> 01:02:49,400
but they thought I was my glass
actually and I was like I got a

1034
01:02:49,408 --> 01:02:52,800
good laugh out of that.
He's a rider for fair.

1035
01:02:55,800 --> 01:03:00,200
He wrote the Bamboozled by the
CES letter documented, got you.

1036
01:03:01,700 --> 01:03:06,800
So they thought it was him which
I thought was pretty funny, but

1037
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,800
yeah, they tried to dogs need
shaundalyn on his Facebook on

1038
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,700
his Mormon stories.
Facebook, sent a thing telling.

1039
01:03:13,700 --> 01:03:18,000
Everybody to flood my social
media with Jeremy's first

1040
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:21,000
rebuttal to me.
Jeremy was encouraging everybody

1041
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:25,500
to flood my social media.
I had locked it all down when I

1042
01:03:25,500 --> 01:03:28,700
started writing for fair,
because I knew that it would be

1043
01:03:28,700 --> 01:03:30,300
under my real name.
So I just locked, everything

1044
01:03:30,300 --> 01:03:32,400
down as private, so nobody was
able to do that.

1045
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,200
But I still got well-meaning
friends and family taking

1046
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:37,500
screenshots and sending them to
me.

1047
01:03:37,500 --> 01:03:42,900
So I saw it all is like I'm
okay, not knowing sorry really

1048
01:03:44,100 --> 01:03:46,000
but they just want to make sure
that I was okay.

1049
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:51,000
And I wasn't like getting really
upset and everything and so I

1050
01:03:51,008 --> 01:03:54,500
appreciate the concern but I
didn't want to read it was so

1051
01:03:55,300 --> 01:03:57,400
right.
Right.

1052
01:03:57,700 --> 01:04:00,800
I remember when I started this
podcast that was my main fear

1053
01:04:00,900 --> 01:04:04,400
was my family, right?
You take shots all day long at

1054
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:05,600
me?
I'm fine.

1055
01:04:05,700 --> 01:04:09,600
I got thick skin.
Yep, none of that concerns me,

1056
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:11,300
right?
It's my family.

1057
01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:14,900
I was most concerned about
thankfully, most people have

1058
01:04:14,900 --> 01:04:18,600
been pretty respectful but I've
gotten my sure hate from the

1059
01:04:19,100 --> 01:04:21,900
same crowd that you got yours
from right?

1060
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:28,600
And and they are They are
vicious and it caused me for a

1061
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:32,200
while to sit back and look.
And here's what I've discovered

1062
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:36,000
through this, especially with,
with, folks, on the the

1063
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,800
anti-mormon side.
And especially those who have

1064
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:43,600
left Mormonism is that they're
still religious Sarah, but

1065
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:46,700
they're, you know, whether they
want to admit it or not.

1066
01:04:46,700 --> 01:04:50,500
They are still religious, they
have their scripture, the CES

1067
01:04:50,500 --> 01:04:55,600
letter, no man knows my history.
Take your pick, right?

1068
01:04:56,000 --> 01:05:00,100
An Insider's view, view of
Mormon Origins, they still have

1069
01:05:00,100 --> 01:05:04,500
scripture, they still have their
profits, right, Jeremy Reynolds,

1070
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:07,600
John Doyle in those sorts of
people.

1071
01:05:07,700 --> 01:05:11,400
So this idea that that, oh, no,
we're just, you know, know,

1072
01:05:11,400 --> 01:05:13,300
know, you know, we're done with
that.

1073
01:05:13,300 --> 01:05:16,400
No, you're not.
You're really not because you've

1074
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,700
just set up a different
structure, right?

1075
01:05:18,700 --> 01:05:23,100
Let's just call it what it is
and so I and they will defend

1076
01:05:23,100 --> 01:05:27,600
that.
Just like any other religious

1077
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:32,000
person will defend their belief
system and in some ways, it's

1078
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:35,500
even more vicious than anything
I've ever seen come out of any

1079
01:05:35,500 --> 01:05:39,500
Mormons mouth.
I've had certainly had my share

1080
01:05:39,500 --> 01:05:46,500
of threats, right?
And And that's okay, I'm good

1081
01:05:46,500 --> 01:05:48,400
with that.
But let's recognize for a

1082
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:50,900
second.
You are approaching this with a

1083
01:05:50,908 --> 01:05:56,300
certain amount of religiosity
that may be of a more rabid

1084
01:05:56,300 --> 01:06:00,900
brand than than Mormonism or
Catholicism or anything else.

1085
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,700
And I completely agree.
And I have actually made that

1086
01:06:04,700 --> 01:06:07,500
same comparison, many times
before about them, having

1087
01:06:07,500 --> 01:06:10,600
scriptures and Prophets and
things because they do they

1088
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,600
proselytize.
They pass them out, like their

1089
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:17,300
scripture, they quote them, and
say like they spread them around

1090
01:06:17,300 --> 01:06:20,000
just like we would conference
talks or something.

1091
01:06:20,500 --> 01:06:27,400
Well, they and they are very
vicious like I just a couple

1092
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:34,600
months ago in fact, I cobbled
together, a list of about 70

1093
01:06:34,600 --> 01:06:39,600
direct insults made it against
me that were still active and

1094
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,300
visible on the Mormon subreddit.
They had never taken any of them

1095
01:06:42,300 --> 01:06:46,900
down even though we all have a
rule against insulting, the

1096
01:06:46,900 --> 01:06:50,400
moderators of other subreddits
in the Mormon sub Reddit

1097
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:55,600
community.
And they were vicious saying

1098
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:58,300
they're calling me, Edith, every
single name you can think of

1099
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,200
what's on their everyday insult.
Every single thing about me and

1100
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:06,000
I was like, that kind of sucks,
you know, most of the time, I

1101
01:07:06,000 --> 01:07:10,400
just ignored it.
Rolls right off me, but seeing

1102
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:13,400
it all cobbled together, this
big huge paragraph of one until

1103
01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:16,300
after another.
I was like that is horrendous.

1104
01:07:16,300 --> 01:07:17,800
I can't even believe that's kind
of stuff.

1105
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,000
Comes out of somebody's mouth.
Yeah.

1106
01:07:20,100 --> 01:07:24,200
Like I would never say that kind
of stuff about anybody, right?

1107
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,200
Yeah, no, the yeah.
First off.

1108
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:32,800
Let me say, I never, I'm glad to
see that somebody else recognize

1109
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,200
that as well and to I think you
probably recognize it before I

1110
01:07:36,207 --> 01:07:37,600
did.
So we're going to call that your

1111
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:39,900
idea.
But I don't want to take credit

1112
01:07:39,900 --> 01:07:49,100
for that but so yeah, it was,
it's interesting to see how that

1113
01:07:49,100 --> 01:07:53,900
side of the Mormon Spectrum.
So to speak, still organizes

1114
01:07:53,900 --> 01:07:57,200
itself with those same.
Ideas.

1115
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:03,000
Scriptures prophets the whole
ball of wax so you publish it

1116
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:07,600
and it did your stuff.
Take take off right away.

1117
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:11,300
Did you immediately see like oh
crap.

1118
01:08:11,300 --> 01:08:13,000
This isn't just five to ten
people.

1119
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,200
It was pretty quick.
Yeah, the first couple of posts.

1120
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:22,600
Got a lot of common snotty not
just from trolls.

1121
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:25,500
I mean they were really
supportive comments to and then

1122
01:08:25,500 --> 01:08:30,899
he started seeing other people.
So I'm read it when when

1123
01:08:30,899 --> 01:08:34,800
somebody references you, they
can pin you or tag you or

1124
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,200
something.
And so, it pops up in your

1125
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:41,000
mentions and I started noticing
it, a lot of people were

1126
01:08:41,100 --> 01:08:42,600
spreading around and sharing
them.

1127
01:08:43,899 --> 01:08:47,000
And that caught me by surprise.
I wasn't expecting that at all.

1128
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:52,300
And then I was, you know, people
started recommending them on

1129
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:55,399
other subs, like, I would go to
comment and there would be like,

1130
01:08:55,399 --> 01:08:58,100
five to ten comments saying, oh,
going to these posts, and I was

1131
01:08:58,100 --> 01:09:04,700
like, oh, that's cool.
And then when they went up on

1132
01:09:04,700 --> 01:09:08,200
fares, when they really started
getting traction, I started

1133
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:09,899
having people in my ward come up
to me.

1134
01:09:10,399 --> 01:09:13,600
And in my parents word, where I,
grown up, my parents still live,

1135
01:09:13,600 --> 01:09:16,200
where you going up?
And says some of the old-timers

1136
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,100
in the word know me and they
would go out to my mom and be

1137
01:09:18,100 --> 01:09:19,700
like a red, your daughter's
stuff on Fair.

1138
01:09:19,700 --> 01:09:24,700
That's so cool.
And so that's when I started to

1139
01:09:24,700 --> 01:09:29,500
really notice it was people
started recognizing me in, you

1140
01:09:29,500 --> 01:09:33,700
know, I wasn't just that quiet
sister in the back road.

1141
01:09:33,899 --> 01:09:37,899
Church anymore, you know, this
are recognizing me and talking

1142
01:09:37,899 --> 01:09:43,200
to me about it and that was
really a surprise and then

1143
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:46,300
people started sharing them on
Facebook which was kind of

1144
01:09:46,308 --> 01:09:49,399
weird.
The only time I ever mentioned

1145
01:09:49,399 --> 01:09:52,700
them on Facebook was just to
say, hey, fares reposting.

1146
01:09:52,700 --> 01:09:55,600
This, if anybody's interested,
I've been writing this for the

1147
01:09:55,600 --> 01:10:00,100
past six months, and that's all
that I said about it, but then

1148
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,900
people started sharing them
every week and I was like, That

1149
01:10:03,900 --> 01:10:06,000
is so weird scrolling through
Facebook and see my face.

1150
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:09,700
They're very weird just cause I
don't comment on social media

1151
01:10:09,700 --> 01:10:13,300
very much.
And then I started scrolling,

1152
01:10:13,500 --> 01:10:16,100
I'd be scrolling on Reddit and
they be reposted on the fair

1153
01:10:16,100 --> 01:10:17,800
subreddit.
And so my face is sitting there.

1154
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,500
My name is on it, I'm like so
bizarre.

1155
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,000
So that's when it really took
off was was when I started

1156
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:30,300
getting posted on them Fair.
Was there a moment?

1157
01:10:30,300 --> 01:10:32,300
I think I know the answer this
already.

1158
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:39,300
Was there a moment at which you
said, okay, this is I have some

1159
01:10:39,300 --> 01:10:45,100
responsibility now, this is no
longer just A hobby or anything

1160
01:10:45,100 --> 01:10:46,800
else?
I know I had my moment.

1161
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,600
What was yours when?
What was it that you were like,

1162
01:10:50,300 --> 01:10:52,800
oh no, this this is a
responsibility.

1163
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:54,500
Now, people are kind of count on
this.

1164
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:01,100
It was the first time I got a
letter from a convert and a very

1165
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:07,400
young very recent convert to the
church whose family was all

1166
01:11:07,400 --> 01:11:11,500
kinds of anti-mormon material
and he wrote me this really

1167
01:11:11,500 --> 01:11:13,600
beautiful letter.
I still have a copy of it.

1168
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,600
He just said, you know, I've
been struggling so much.

1169
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:18,100
I didn't know how to respond to
any of this.

1170
01:11:18,100 --> 01:11:20,200
I am brand new to the church.
I don't know any of the stuff

1171
01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:21,500
yet.
I'm still learning it.

1172
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,900
I, you know, I can feel when I
read the book of Mormon, I can

1173
01:11:24,900 --> 01:11:27,900
feel that It's true.
I can feel that, you know, so

1174
01:11:27,900 --> 01:11:30,500
the Lord did restore the church
but I don't know how to respond

1175
01:11:30,500 --> 01:11:31,800
to any of this.
I don't know how to react to my

1176
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:37,100
family, but reading these helped
me so much and that just totally

1177
01:11:37,100 --> 01:11:39,000
humbled, me and blew me away and
I didn't even know how to

1178
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:41,500
respond to that.
I was like, and what do you say

1179
01:11:41,500 --> 01:11:44,000
to something like that?
You know, but that's when I

1180
01:11:44,008 --> 01:11:46,900
realized that people were
reading them and they were using

1181
01:11:46,900 --> 01:11:50,600
them and they were relying on
them, to help them learn the

1182
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:54,200
stuff.
I remember it was that couple I

1183
01:11:54,208 --> 01:11:57,100
told you about that, had sat
down watched under the banner of

1184
01:11:57,100 --> 01:12:03,400
heaven when I got that email
from that LDS couple and he just

1185
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:05,800
kind of said thank you.
We can go back to church now and

1186
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:10,300
that meant a ton but it also it
is humbling, right?

1187
01:12:10,300 --> 01:12:13,400
Because look, I've said it
before on the podcast and I

1188
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:15,800
really mean I'm a clown with a
microphone, right?

1189
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:20,000
This was born out of either
prompting from the spirit or a

1190
01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:21,700
bad slice of pizza the night
before.

1191
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:24,700
In time will tell what which is,
which right.

1192
01:12:24,700 --> 01:12:30,000
But I all of a sudden, when
there's people that's counting

1193
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:32,700
on it takes on a different
feeling, right?

1194
01:12:32,700 --> 01:12:36,000
Takes on drastically different
feeling and you kind of feel

1195
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:40,300
like you're on the hook a little
bit and so that that but every

1196
01:12:40,300 --> 01:12:42,700
once in a while, you get one of
those letters, right?

1197
01:12:42,700 --> 01:12:45,100
Or one of those emails where
you're like, well, we're going

1198
01:12:45,100 --> 01:12:48,000
to keep going, whatever this,
this takes, we're just going to

1199
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,300
keep plugging away at it and see
where it leads.

1200
01:12:51,700 --> 01:12:54,200
One.
Yeah, it is very humbling

1201
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:58,000
because I know I would not have
been able to do it without

1202
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:00,400
having found yourself, and I
leaned on him a lot.

1203
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:03,800
And I leaned on the spare, I was
praying all the time, like, help

1204
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,100
me find sources for this, you
know, how do I respond to this

1205
01:13:07,100 --> 01:13:10,000
and then light bulb moment, you
know, it would just come.

1206
01:13:10,300 --> 01:13:14,400
And I know that wasn't for me,
that was from him, so I know

1207
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:20,400
that that was something that he
was directing and That helped a

1208
01:13:20,407 --> 01:13:24,200
lot too to know that, okay, I
don't know why he wants to use

1209
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:27,500
me to do this, but if he does I
will let him.

1210
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:29,000
You know.
I'll go with it and I'll do what

1211
01:13:29,000 --> 01:13:32,900
he wants me to do and I hope I
won't mess it up too badly.

1212
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:41,900
You know.
So It's very humbling to but

1213
01:13:41,900 --> 01:13:45,200
that's one of the things that I
appreciate about, you know,

1214
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:48,300
learning about the prophets and
their flaws and things is, you

1215
01:13:48,300 --> 01:13:51,300
know, heavenly father found a
way to use them and that means

1216
01:13:51,300 --> 01:13:53,800
that he can find a way to use me
too, because I am way more

1217
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:56,600
clouds than they are.
But if he was able to use them,

1218
01:13:56,600 --> 01:14:00,200
then he needs me to.
Absolutely, I've had those same

1219
01:14:00,700 --> 01:14:04,600
conversations with myself and
with God and and I don't know

1220
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:07,700
about you, but when I first did
my undertaking, I was coming up

1221
01:14:07,700 --> 01:14:09,900
with every reason in the book.
Look, I shouldn't, right?

1222
01:14:09,900 --> 01:14:14,400
I'm like I say things that piss
people off all the time.

1223
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:16,500
You don't want me.
He wants somebody else.

1224
01:14:16,500 --> 01:14:19,500
You know?
I mean gosh I wish I was more

1225
01:14:19,500 --> 01:14:22,700
Joseph Smith but I can identify
more with Brigham because I'm

1226
01:14:22,700 --> 01:14:26,100
more direct and more blunt.
And and so, I'm like, you need

1227
01:14:26,100 --> 01:14:27,900
somebody different and he's
like, nope.

1228
01:14:27,900 --> 01:14:29,800
Nope.
You're you know, we're going,

1229
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:32,400
you do this.
I'm giving this to you, so I can

1230
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:35,800
totally identify with those
feelings of unworthiness, and,

1231
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:38,700
and being an unqualified and all
those other things.

1232
01:14:38,900 --> 01:14:42,300
Like I totally can dig on that
and respect that totally.

1233
01:14:43,100 --> 01:14:47,100
So when it gets to Fair, how
does fair reach out to you?

1234
01:14:47,100 --> 01:14:49,100
And what was that?
Like, because I mean, within the

1235
01:14:49,100 --> 01:14:52,000
LDS community fairs big, right?
I mean, this, this is a

1236
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:56,800
collection of Scholars and and
people who put the work in so to

1237
01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,900
speak.
They are.

1238
01:14:59,900 --> 01:15:05,700
Yeah, I don't think so as well
known maybe as some of the other

1239
01:15:05,900 --> 01:15:09,800
the other big sites.
But yeah, they a lot of people

1240
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:13,400
are aware of them and they do
have a reputation for being more

1241
01:15:13,400 --> 01:15:16,700
scholarly and academic and that
is not really me.

1242
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:25,400
So they reached out through The
guy am I mod team?

1243
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:28,900
Who is on the fair board?
I'm not going to talk to him in

1244
01:15:28,900 --> 01:15:34,800
real life, but hasn't his handle
is Atari guy and he is a

1245
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:38,100
longtime volunteer with Fair.
He is pretty high up in the

1246
01:15:38,108 --> 01:15:42,700
organization and they're all,
they're all volunteers so he

1247
01:15:42,700 --> 01:15:46,800
doesn't get paid for it or
anything, but he, he is pretty

1248
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:51,000
high up on the board and he took
them to Scott Gordon, who is the

1249
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,400
president, and I didn't know any
of this was going.

1250
01:15:53,500 --> 01:15:59,700
Going on, but he proposed for a
couple of weeks and Scott really

1251
01:15:59,700 --> 01:16:02,600
liked him.
And like I said, this a few

1252
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:05,400
months has about six months into
it when they he approached me

1253
01:16:05,407 --> 01:16:09,100
but he just sent me a direct
message on Reddit and was like,

1254
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:12,900
Hey, so I've been doing, you
know, I've been sharing all your

1255
01:16:12,900 --> 01:16:15,400
stuff with Scott and he loves
them and he wants to post them

1256
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:19,000
on their fair board.
A Blog, is it okay you know we'd

1257
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:20,200
have to put your real name on
it.

1258
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:22,400
Would put your picture on it all
this time I would like the whole

1259
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:25,800
wow.
Okay, because I thought about it

1260
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:30,900
for a little while but I had
promised heavenly father that if

1261
01:16:30,900 --> 01:16:34,700
he helped me I would say yes to
whatever else he wanted me to

1262
01:16:34,700 --> 01:16:37,100
do.
And that's how we get you.

1263
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:40,600
That's how we get you every
time.

1264
01:16:42,700 --> 01:16:46,000
So because I said that I went,
you want me to do this and he

1265
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:47,300
said yeah.
But I said, okay.

1266
01:16:47,500 --> 01:16:51,000
All right, I will dogs myself
and I will put my name and face

1267
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:54,800
on all of these and I will let
you post them and so then they

1268
01:16:54,800 --> 01:17:00,000
just started posting them when.
So half of my mod team is

1269
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:01,600
affiliated with fares.
Pretty much.

1270
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:04,500
Is it all of them?
But one now on our little

1271
01:17:04,500 --> 01:17:11,300
six-person team, but one of the
other volunteers with fair was

1272
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:15,500
the guy who Posted them on the
site for me.

1273
01:17:15,500 --> 01:17:22,500
So I wasn't even that affiliated
with him at that point. and

1274
01:17:22,500 --> 01:17:29,100
then, I went to the conference
and they gave me a really pretty

1275
01:17:29,100 --> 01:17:31,200
award that I wasn't expecting
either.

1276
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:37,300
But Atari had reached out in was
like, we want to make sure that

1277
01:17:37,300 --> 01:17:40,100
you're coming and I was like, oh
yeah, I'm coming.

1278
01:17:40,100 --> 01:17:42,000
I already bought a ticket.
I'll be there and he goes, okay,

1279
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:43,900
good.
We have some really cool things

1280
01:17:43,900 --> 01:17:47,400
planned and they asked me to do
it like a little lunchtime panel

1281
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:49,200
for people who were there.
So I thought that's what he

1282
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:51,500
meant.
I don't realize he had also put

1283
01:17:51,500 --> 01:17:56,100
me up for that award.
So that was a surprise.

1284
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:01,700
I had been intending to
officially volunteer with fair.

1285
01:18:01,700 --> 01:18:04,100
I hadn't yet.
At that point, it was just

1286
01:18:04,100 --> 01:18:08,900
reposting them.
I wanted to get finished with it

1287
01:18:08,900 --> 01:18:12,400
all first before I started doing
other things for fair because it

1288
01:18:12,400 --> 01:18:16,700
was such a lot of reading and
writing and it was just a big

1289
01:18:16,700 --> 01:18:22,200
undertaking and so I hadn't
joined and so, Atari signed me

1290
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:27,400
up as a volunteer Anyway, which
I, he knew, I wanted to, he was

1291
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:30,800
just like, you know, we've asked
you five or six times and you

1292
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:32,700
haven't done it yet so we'll
just do it.

1293
01:18:32,700 --> 01:18:35,900
And when you're ready, you can,
you can step into it, but you'll

1294
01:18:35,900 --> 01:18:39,200
be signed up.
So they got me a T-shirt and

1295
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:43,200
they got me like an email
address and everything and added

1296
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:48,900
me to the email lists.
And after I was done, they asked

1297
01:18:48,900 --> 01:18:52,100
me to turn it into a book which
we started doing, and then they

1298
01:18:52,100 --> 01:18:54,900
asked me to do the other a
series that I'm doing now and so

1299
01:18:55,100 --> 01:18:59,200
that kind of took the place of
the book for a while, but It

1300
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:01,700
kind of snowballed from there
got you.

1301
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:08,000
God, you're so Do you think the
CES letter is still having the

1302
01:19:08,008 --> 01:19:12,500
kind of impact?
It did back in 2013, 2015 or do

1303
01:19:12,508 --> 01:19:14,300
you think it's kind of fizzled
out?

1304
01:19:16,300 --> 01:19:18,600
I don't think it's fizzled out.
I don't know that it has the

1305
01:19:18,900 --> 01:19:22,700
same dramatic level of impact
that did when it first came out,

1306
01:19:22,700 --> 01:19:24,800
but it is still pretty
influential.

1307
01:19:24,900 --> 01:19:28,100
Like we still get people all the
time who are just stumbling

1308
01:19:28,100 --> 01:19:32,200
across, all them who are just
hearing about it for the first

1309
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:36,000
time and just spiraling.
And, you know, it's still

1310
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:41,600
getting passed around like crazy
book by, it's mostly that use

1311
01:19:41,700 --> 01:19:43,400
that.
I've noticed that are passing it

1312
01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:47,600
around to there. ends of family
members who are older and you

1313
01:19:47,608 --> 01:19:52,100
know, it's the first time that
they're hearing about it and I'm

1314
01:19:52,100 --> 01:19:55,300
not sure how it's the first time
you're hearing about it but I

1315
01:19:55,300 --> 01:19:58,800
guess, you know, everybody knows
different things.

1316
01:20:02,700 --> 01:20:07,100
I don't think it it's quite as
big as it was when it first came

1317
01:20:07,100 --> 01:20:09,100
out, but it is, it's still
pretty big.

1318
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:13,700
It still takes some defending to
to get through that.

1319
01:20:15,100 --> 01:20:19,300
Um, What, what kind of things
are?

1320
01:20:19,300 --> 01:20:26,000
Are we seeing now within,
because Mormonism as a whole.

1321
01:20:26,700 --> 01:20:35,100
I really feel like is that this
this place of just kind of being

1322
01:20:35,100 --> 01:20:38,200
used as a theological pinata,
right?

1323
01:20:38,300 --> 01:20:40,800
It feels like right now,
everyone's taking a swing,

1324
01:20:41,300 --> 01:20:44,000
right?
What other things are you guys

1325
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:48,100
seeing coming out now that are
the that's really damaging

1326
01:20:48,100 --> 01:20:53,300
people and their testimonies
from from the anti-mormon side

1327
01:20:53,300 --> 01:21:02,500
of things. the day Bell case
Lori Bala that one is getting a

1328
01:21:02,500 --> 01:21:11,900
lot of traction right now under
the banner of Heaven did The

1329
01:21:11,900 --> 01:21:15,100
there are a couple of
high-profile sexual abuse cases

1330
01:21:15,100 --> 01:21:18,600
against the LDS church right now
that are doing a fair bit of

1331
01:21:18,600 --> 01:21:22,800
damage, there are a gazillion
copycat letters that are coming

1332
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:29,400
out but interestingly we are
also seeing a lot of people who

1333
01:21:29,400 --> 01:21:31,900
left because of that material.
We're now coming back.

1334
01:21:33,300 --> 01:21:35,100
Yeah.
Yep.

1335
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:38,800
I feel like sometimes at least
my experience.

1336
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:47,300
I get a ton of email from this
and fortunately, I have a family

1337
01:21:47,300 --> 01:21:49,900
who's gotten really good at
answering a lot of those because

1338
01:21:49,900 --> 01:21:52,200
a lot of times, it's just asking
for resources.

1339
01:21:52,500 --> 01:21:54,900
Where did you see this?
Where did you find this?

1340
01:21:54,900 --> 01:21:58,400
And, and so now we can almost, I
literally have just kind of a

1341
01:21:58,407 --> 01:22:02,100
small library on my laptop with
different names where it's just,

1342
01:22:02,100 --> 01:22:04,200
you know.
Okay, here you go, click click,

1343
01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:06,900
but every once in a while, my
family knows, okay.

1344
01:22:06,900 --> 01:22:09,700
This dude, really struggling or
this lady's really struggling

1345
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:12,000
and you're Going to need to talk
to them.

1346
01:22:13,300 --> 01:22:16,600
And panic is the exact word I
would use, right?

1347
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:20,200
I mean, there are times that I
will, you know, if they leave me

1348
01:22:20,200 --> 01:22:24,300
a phone number, I'll call him.
I'll be like, okay, first

1349
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:26,400
breathe that.
Your first thing you need to do

1350
01:22:26,407 --> 01:22:31,700
is just breathe.
Just relax, you'll get through

1351
01:22:31,700 --> 01:22:36,200
this, but I do think that
because it is, it is aimed at

1352
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:40,600
your core pillar, right?
Your mormonism's unique and it's

1353
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:44,400
of the things I love about it.
The restored gospel is unique in

1354
01:22:44,400 --> 01:22:49,100
the sense that It's not just a
Sunday thing, right?

1355
01:22:49,100 --> 01:22:52,300
This is something you build an
entire identity around.

1356
01:22:52,500 --> 01:22:58,500
It is very much a subculture or
counterculture within mainstream

1357
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:02,400
America and so it's God's own
language, its own Customs, its

1358
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:06,300
own dialect in some ways.
I mean, it's a different ball of

1359
01:23:06,300 --> 01:23:09,500
wax, right?
And so when someone takes aim at

1360
01:23:09,500 --> 01:23:13,600
something like that and then
start eroding those, those those

1361
01:23:13,700 --> 01:23:18,500
foundations, there is a A very
large sense of panic that

1362
01:23:18,500 --> 01:23:21,900
ensues.
And so, yeah, just, it doesn't

1363
01:23:21,900 --> 01:23:24,800
surprise me that people are
coming back because I think,

1364
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:29,000
once they are gone and then
they're like, oh look, it I'm

1365
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:32,600
really not happier here.
And, and look they found horses,

1366
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:34,400
or, you know, they found iron or
whatever.

1367
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:39,800
The case is, I think that
knee-jerk reaction is where we

1368
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:42,700
have to catch people.
The most right before they make

1369
01:23:42,700 --> 01:23:47,100
a decision based off of fear and
off of Of sadness and

1370
01:23:47,100 --> 01:23:49,100
uncertainty and all those
things.

1371
01:23:49,500 --> 01:23:51,800
Let's just bring this back,
right?

1372
01:23:52,100 --> 01:23:56,800
And one of the things that
surprised me in being LDS and

1373
01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:00,300
being a fundamentalist is we're
all dealing with the same stuff,

1374
01:24:00,500 --> 01:24:01,900
right?
All of us are.

1375
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:07,500
Yeah, I just talked to a young
man who just got back serving a

1376
01:24:07,500 --> 01:24:10,700
mission from our church, and we
were just talking, and he talks

1377
01:24:10,700 --> 01:24:14,000
about, you know, at 15.
He's not sure he wants to do

1378
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:15,500
this anymore.
This is boring.

1379
01:24:15,700 --> 01:24:19,100
I want to do this, I want to
move with my friends and and so

1380
01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:21,800
I'm like yeah, we're just like
everybody else, right?

1381
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:23,500
We really are.
We all have to have that

1382
01:24:23,500 --> 01:24:27,100
conversion moment.
So I and that's why I reach out

1383
01:24:27,100 --> 01:24:30,800
to you because there really is
we're not that different in a

1384
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:35,200
lot of ways and and sometimes
the same attacks that are meant

1385
01:24:35,200 --> 01:24:39,200
for the LDS church are
absolutely going to be attacked

1386
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:44,800
on our theology.
Where do you see?

1387
01:24:46,700 --> 01:24:50,900
That valo case really doing the
most damage because as I reach

1388
01:24:50,900 --> 01:24:57,900
ad and Lori's theology, it's as
bad as Mormon as and I'm a

1389
01:24:57,900 --> 01:24:59,700
fundamentalist.
So, if I have to look and be

1390
01:24:59,700 --> 01:25:04,300
like, bro, that is not Mormon
at.

1391
01:25:04,300 --> 01:25:08,500
All right.
I I have a hard time.

1392
01:25:09,800 --> 01:25:14,600
Calling them Mormon, you know,
when some of their theology is.

1393
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:18,500
So radically different almost
the exact opposite of what

1394
01:25:18,500 --> 01:25:22,300
Joseph and Brigham and John
Taylor taught, what kind of

1395
01:25:22,300 --> 01:25:23,900
things are you dealing with off
of that?

1396
01:25:23,900 --> 01:25:25,300
I mean, how is this hurting
people?

1397
01:25:27,500 --> 01:25:29,600
The biggest thing that we're
seeing right now is the whole

1398
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:33,200
energy healing thing that the
the riky stuff that they kind of

1399
01:25:33,200 --> 01:25:39,800
got into as well.
It is not just a Mormon and

1400
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:44,300
problem like it is very popular.
Like if you look on Etsy and you

1401
01:25:44,300 --> 01:25:49,200
look up the the riky term, I
mean there are thousands and

1402
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:52,600
thousands and thousands of
websites little shops, selling,

1403
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:57,500
crystals and oils and like all
kinds of Little things to help

1404
01:25:57,500 --> 01:25:59,500
you Channel your energy and do
these hellions.

1405
01:25:59,500 --> 01:26:03,000
Like, they have little wands and
all kinds of stuff, like it is a

1406
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:06,300
big, big business and that is
the kind of stuff that led to

1407
01:26:06,300 --> 01:26:09,200
like the zombie thing.
And you know, that they're all

1408
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:16,500
kind of connected through the
energy healing as opposed to, to

1409
01:26:16,500 --> 01:26:22,300
some of the more bringe
doctrines and that is kind of

1410
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:25,200
taken over.
A lot of people are doing that,

1411
01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:32,600
they see him as being similar to
Still blessings and so not, it

1412
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:36,300
works in a completely different
way, and it is clearly, you

1413
01:26:36,300 --> 01:26:40,300
know, has some weird, weird
background attached to it and

1414
01:26:40,300 --> 01:26:42,600
some weird French beliefs and
stuff.

1415
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:47,700
But that is the thing that like
a lot of people don't see that

1416
01:26:47,700 --> 01:26:50,400
as being something that they
shouldn't engage in because they

1417
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:53,000
think, oh, I was just using the
preset in a different way.

1418
01:26:53,500 --> 01:26:56,500
And, you know, I'm not the one
he doing any of the healing.

1419
01:26:56,500 --> 01:26:59,500
I'm I'm letting God heal them
through me then, things like

1420
01:26:59,500 --> 01:27:05,800
that and you're like, no that's
not quite right, right?

1421
01:27:07,100 --> 01:27:12,400
No, I get it.
Yeah, it surprised me when you

1422
01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:16,500
said that because after reading
some of the stuff that Chad and

1423
01:27:16,500 --> 01:27:23,400
Laurie had said, I mean, look,
even even The Reincarnation

1424
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:25,200
thing, right?
And fundamentalism.

1425
01:27:25,200 --> 01:27:27,300
It's called multiple mortal
probations.

1426
01:27:27,900 --> 01:27:32,100
And that's even somewhat friends
even for fundamentalist, right?

1427
01:27:32,100 --> 01:27:34,900
I mean, most of us are like, I
don't think so right.

1428
01:27:34,900 --> 01:27:40,600
But so the fact that that
they're, they're seeing that and

1429
01:27:40,600 --> 01:27:43,700
that's what's doing the damage
is somewhat surprising.

1430
01:27:44,600 --> 01:27:47,800
Do you have any idea on why that
is so appealing to some folks?

1431
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:55,500
so something that I have come to
learn over the years is that

1432
01:27:55,500 --> 01:28:01,400
Satan often creates counterfeits
to things of God that I am Pages

1433
01:28:01,400 --> 01:28:06,800
Maxie or stone or You know, I
mean there are all kinds of

1434
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:15,400
things like you could say, you
know, people who are living

1435
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:17,800
together as opposed to getting
married things like that.

1436
01:28:18,000 --> 01:28:21,600
Where I mean you can find it in
any area you could think of just

1437
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:25,600
about if Heavenly Father uses
something for his purposes,

1438
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:27,900
Satan will find a way to use
something similar.

1439
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:34,400
For his purposes.
And so I think that this is one

1440
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:36,700
of those cases where it kind of
mimics me.

1441
01:28:36,700 --> 01:28:40,000
So blessings in a way and it
kind of mimics priesthood power

1442
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:44,100
in a way.
And so Satan is using that,

1443
01:28:44,100 --> 01:28:48,200
like, it could be perfectly
benign and you know, if somebody

1444
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:52,400
is not using it for religious
purposes, I mean I personally

1445
01:28:52,400 --> 01:28:55,400
wouldn't I would avoid that but
you know, if somebody who is not

1446
01:28:55,400 --> 01:28:57,600
religious is doing it, you know,
they're probably going to be

1447
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:01,700
fine.
But when Satan is actively

1448
01:29:01,700 --> 01:29:05,500
trying to use that for his
purposes, it will do a lot of

1449
01:29:05,500 --> 01:29:09,200
damage.
And I think that one of the

1450
01:29:09,200 --> 01:29:14,500
things that he was doing here
Perfect Limit.

1451
01:29:14,500 --> 01:29:20,700
Let me ask you this question.
Someone, you know, and love.

1452
01:29:21,900 --> 01:29:25,300
And this is for you know, you
answering any of my, my

1453
01:29:25,300 --> 01:29:28,700
listeners, someone they know,
and love comes to him.

1454
01:29:28,800 --> 01:29:31,900
You know, let's say it's a
father and his son approach is a

1455
01:29:31,907 --> 01:29:36,000
more a mother and her daughter
approaches her and says, I found

1456
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:41,800
the CES letter and I'm shook.
How should they respond?

1457
01:29:41,900 --> 01:29:44,400
I mean, what's what's the
appropriate response?

1458
01:29:47,100 --> 01:29:53,000
Empathy for sure because there's
some reason in our church, even

1459
01:29:53,000 --> 01:29:55,100
though both of our churches
were.

1460
01:29:55,100 --> 01:29:59,900
Founded it on Joseph Smith
asking questions because he had,

1461
01:29:59,900 --> 01:30:02,000
you know, he was hearing things
that were weird to him to you,

1462
01:30:02,000 --> 01:30:04,700
and so, he had questions and he
went to God and ask questions

1463
01:30:05,100 --> 01:30:10,300
and the gospel was restored, you
know, but for some reason,

1464
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:17,300
Questions are seen as something
negative in our society today,

1465
01:30:17,700 --> 01:30:21,000
and they shouldn't be, you know,
everybody has questions.

1466
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:22,600
I have questions.
You have questions, we all do.

1467
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:26,200
And that should be something to
be looked down on her judged

1468
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:29,500
for.
And I think that is probably one

1469
01:30:29,500 --> 01:30:33,000
of the things that does damage
is, first of all, the people who

1470
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,600
are reading that are scared
that, you know, the they're

1471
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:39,200
going to be judged for reading
it and for believing it and for

1472
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:40,800
having those questions in the
first place.

1473
01:30:40,900 --> 01:30:42,800
So it's really hard for them,
too.

1474
01:30:44,300 --> 01:30:49,900
Ask those questions to begin
with and once they do ask them,

1475
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:52,900
the reaction is a big part of it
too.

1476
01:30:53,300 --> 01:30:56,100
If people aren't supportive and
they're like, well, okay, I

1477
01:30:56,100 --> 01:30:58,000
don't know how to answer that,
but let me help you find it.

1478
01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:01,300
You know, if they're just like
they'll start by going to do

1479
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:02,600
what way are you wasting your
time with that?

1480
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:03,900
Don't do that.
You know, avoid it.

1481
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:06,700
Then they're like, well, I
didn't get any answers to my

1482
01:31:06,708 --> 01:31:08,800
questions.
Those questions are still there

1483
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:12,000
even if I put it away.
So I think empathy and

1484
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:17,900
understanding go a long way and
I think a willingness to look at

1485
01:31:17,900 --> 01:31:22,300
the questions and to look at
what it says and to start

1486
01:31:22,300 --> 01:31:23,800
looking where you can find
answers.

1487
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:28,100
Because you know, I mean, Jeremy
does provide sources for a lot

1488
01:31:28,100 --> 01:31:31,800
of this stuff that He talks
about, but you have to learn how

1489
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:35,200
to weigh in evaluate sources.
And you have to learn how to

1490
01:31:35,200 --> 01:31:39,900
figure out, where, to go to find
answers and you have to be able

1491
01:31:39,900 --> 01:31:43,900
to, to ask Heavenly Father,
until being on the spirit

1492
01:31:43,900 --> 01:31:47,000
lawyers, saying those things.
And a lot of people don't,

1493
01:31:47,100 --> 01:31:51,400
really, some reason we don't
really put a lot of emphasis on

1494
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:54,300
that when you grow up in the
church, it tends to be more of

1495
01:31:55,100 --> 01:32:00,100
You know get your testimony and
you know listen to the spirit

1496
01:32:00,100 --> 01:32:04,000
and stuff but it's not really.
If you have questions, there are

1497
01:32:04,500 --> 01:32:06,900
thousands of resources out there
for you to use to find them and

1498
01:32:06,900 --> 01:32:11,100
here's how you can do it.
Yeah, no, I think that's huge.

1499
01:32:11,200 --> 01:32:15,900
The empathy thing is huge.
Again again, the same young,

1500
01:32:15,900 --> 01:32:16,900
man.
I talk to you.

1501
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:20,900
He talks about going to his dad
and his grandfather and telling

1502
01:32:20,900 --> 01:32:23,500
them.
Hey, you know, I think I'm

1503
01:32:23,500 --> 01:32:26,100
Splitsville as soon as I'm 18
and I'm out of here.

1504
01:32:26,700 --> 01:32:33,400
And They both were just, I think
his dad says, look, you got to

1505
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:36,000
make your own decision, but no,
I'm always going to love you and

1506
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:38,200
I'm always going to be here,
right?

1507
01:32:39,100 --> 01:32:42,300
His grandfather said something
really profound.

1508
01:32:42,300 --> 01:32:47,700
He's he said, don't throw
something out, that's totally

1509
01:32:47,700 --> 01:32:51,600
untested.
And I think that, that is, is a

1510
01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:55,400
beautiful sentiment.
Because so, often, what I see is

1511
01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:59,500
that these issues come up right?
Whether it's Jeremy's letter,

1512
01:32:59,500 --> 01:33:04,100
whether it's from Van, Brody,
whether you know, whatever it

1513
01:33:04,100 --> 01:33:07,400
is, it's going to come up and
there's going to be more, I can

1514
01:33:07,400 --> 01:33:10,500
guarantee there will be more,
someone's going to get pissed

1515
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:15,400
and they're going to write more
crap and will be debunking this.

1516
01:33:15,400 --> 01:33:18,400
And on the surface, it will seem
like a real slick argument.

1517
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:22,200
But that idea of just, don't
throw it out until you've tested

1518
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:25,700
it thoroughly.
I think has a lot of Merit and,

1519
01:33:25,700 --> 01:33:28,200
and be patient with it, be
willing to sit with that.

1520
01:33:28,500 --> 01:33:34,000
And then I think as parents and
as leaders and, and maybe people

1521
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:36,000
who've had a little more time to
digest.

1522
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:38,400
This just be patient with that
too.

1523
01:33:38,700 --> 01:33:43,300
And I think the other thing is,
is don't make our answer there,

1524
01:33:43,300 --> 01:33:46,100
answer, right?
Let's, let's help them find it

1525
01:33:46,100 --> 01:33:50,100
themselves, because if we just
try to Spit something out them.

1526
01:33:50,500 --> 01:33:52,500
It's not going to stick if they
find it.

1527
01:33:53,300 --> 01:33:56,100
It's a different story or if
they read it and they begin to

1528
01:33:56,100 --> 01:33:59,100
digest it.
So that to me that was that was

1529
01:33:59,100 --> 01:34:01,500
huge.
But Sarah.

1530
01:34:01,500 --> 01:34:04,100
Is there anything we didn't
cover that you want to cover?

1531
01:34:06,100 --> 01:34:09,600
I mean, I would just say going
in line with what you were just

1532
01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:13,500
saying.
I think that is something that

1533
01:34:13,700 --> 01:34:15,900
that that's another point that I
have made before.

1534
01:34:15,900 --> 01:34:19,700
And I think it's something that
people need to recognize and

1535
01:34:19,700 --> 01:34:24,400
understand is, you know, you
can.

1536
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:27,700
So they need a lot of people
don't read anymore.

1537
01:34:27,900 --> 01:34:31,400
They just expect people to hand
just everything, you know, with

1538
01:34:31,400 --> 01:34:33,100
the Internet.
It's so easy to just people

1539
01:34:33,100 --> 01:34:35,200
something and you have the
answer and like 10 seconds.

1540
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:39,100
And so they expect that from the
church.

1541
01:34:39,100 --> 01:34:41,600
And that's not how heavenly
father works.

1542
01:34:42,100 --> 01:34:46,500
And he expects us to put in the
effort and he expects us to go

1543
01:34:46,500 --> 01:34:50,100
through that refiners fire and
to go through those trials and

1544
01:34:50,100 --> 01:34:54,400
those struggles and seek out the
answers to the questions like

1545
01:34:54,900 --> 01:34:57,700
that scripture to Oliver cowdery
in the Doctrine and Covenants

1546
01:34:57,700 --> 01:35:02,200
you know study it out first
before you come to me and ask

1547
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:04,300
and that's what he expects us to
do.

1548
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:09,200
And So many people don't expect
that, but you have to find your

1549
01:35:09,200 --> 01:35:10,900
own answers.
You can't rely on.

1550
01:35:10,900 --> 01:35:15,500
Anybody else to do it and the
whole point of those posts were

1551
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:17,300
supposed to say.
These are some places where you

1552
01:35:17,300 --> 01:35:20,000
can go to find answers, but
don't take my word for it.

1553
01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:22,900
Don't take care of his word for
it, listen to Heavenly Father

1554
01:35:22,900 --> 01:35:25,400
and find your own.
So I think that is something

1555
01:35:25,400 --> 01:35:28,300
that's very important to
remember and to focus on.

1556
01:35:29,300 --> 01:35:32,800
Awesome.
All right, Sarah, thank you so

1557
01:35:32,800 --> 01:35:35,500
much.
Thank you for having me.

1558
01:35:35,500 --> 01:35:36,800
This is fun.
I enjoyed it.

1559
01:35:36,900 --> 01:35:39,500
Yeah, let's let's do this again
because there's plenty out there

1560
01:35:39,500 --> 01:35:44,500
for us to discuss.
So Perfect.

1561
01:35:44,500 --> 01:35:46,800
All right.
Well, good enough.

1562
01:35:46,800 --> 01:35:49,200
All right, stick around for just
a few minutes Sarah.

1563
01:35:49,200 --> 01:35:51,200
Everyone else.
We'll we'll talk to you next

1564
01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:52,100
time.
Bye.

1565
01:36:15,700 --> 01:36:18,500
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

1566
01:36:15,700 --> 01:36:18,500
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.