May 3, 2025

Episode #182: Book of Mormon Geography-The Mesoamerican Model W/Ken Peterson

Show Notes
Transcript

Right around last Christmas I did an episode about Book of Mormon geography which took a close look at the Heartland Model. Today on the podcast I have Ken Peterson on as we take a deep dive into the Mesoamerican Model as a setting for the Book of Mormon. As always Ken comes prepared as we look at several factors in examining the Meso-American Model including anthropology, geography, geology, linguistics and natural disasters. No matter which model you subscribe to, you are for sure going to learn something from this episode, and while this is a topic that shouldn’t affect anyone's testimony, it sure is fun to talk about.

1
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,880
The you're listening to the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

2
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,960
Ken, how's it going, my man?
Oh, life is good, buddy, Life's

3
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:44,000
good.
Good.

4
00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,840
You know, we were just talking
about our kids here and you were

5
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,520
you were saying your son like
works on like nuclear stuff,

6
00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,480
right?
Rare metals germanium to.

7
00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,400
Be rare.
Rare metals.

8
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:03,320
OK, so it got me thinking,
actually, Gilligan's Island.

9
00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,520
The professor could make like a
nuclear reactor out of two

10
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:08,880
coconut shells, but he couldn't
hatch a hole in the boat.

11
00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,880
So.
Just just saying there's an

12
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,880
obvious there's there's an
obvious loophole now look,

13
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:20,840
that's why you listen to this
podcast, right?

14
00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,800
Because you're not going to get
a Gilligan's Island reset on any

15
00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,800
other Pot Mormon podcast
anywhere.

16
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,880
But dude, how's it been going?
Life's good.

17
00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,840
This is a very good.
Well, my daughter had

18
00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,080
appendicitis 2 weeks ago, an
emergency appendectomy.

19
00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:44,040
But the miracle for me, They
went in the emergency room, gave

20
00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:47,960
her a CAT scan at 1:30 AM.
By 2:30 AM the thing was out.

21
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,240
She was home at 10:00 the next
morning with three band aids on

22
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,960
her tummy.
She's feeling better than ever.

23
00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,680
And I'm thinking to myself, this
isn't this isn't a miracle.

24
00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,320
A miracle, you know?
And the doctor's like, oh, yeah,

25
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,520
we do six of these a day.
And I'm like, you guys are

26
00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,480
amazing.
I mean, years ago, she'd have

27
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,000
been dead.
Yeah, it wasn't that long ago.

28
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:08,800
Now she.
Feels great.

29
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:10,560
It was like a person and a half
ago.

30
00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,560
You're risking life and limb,
right?

31
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,200
I mean, that's, that's all there
is to it, but no.

32
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,840
No life's good.
Good, good.

33
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,920
I'm glad to hear it.
Well, look, I, I did an episode

34
00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:26,000
back in, in December where I
talked to Rod Meldrum for a

35
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:31,600
little while and I've been at
you know, I want think of me as

36
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:33,880
fair and balanced.
I don't want to give just one

37
00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,120
side of the story, right.
He talked about the Heartland

38
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,200
model.
And so I I wanted to get someone

39
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:44,600
else on who, who wasn't somebody
from the Heartland camp.

40
00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:47,800
And Ken's like, I'm your guy and
I'm like, we always have a good

41
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,400
conversation, so let's do it
now.

42
00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,560
Look, I thought you were going
to say.

43
00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:54,920
I thought you were going to say.
So I asked the guy and he turned

44
00:02:54,920 --> 00:02:55,920
me down.
So I asked Ken.

45
00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:59,040
No.
No, I haven't asked anybody else

46
00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,520
yet.
You know, I, this is one of

47
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,040
those things like normally I'm,
I'm really against Mormons

48
00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,560
fighting each other right on
this topic, though, I'm like,

49
00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:15,400
this is one we should all be
able to like.

50
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,120
It should kind of be like when
you see a good boxing match,

51
00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,040
right?
And then you just, they just

52
00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,680
kind of hug it out afterwards
and go to their various ways,

53
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,680
right?
And so look, this is something

54
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,280
you can, you can have a healthy
debate about and not have to

55
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,080
split over.
I want to get that out of the

56
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,560
way right now.
If you are basing your whole

57
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,400
testimony of the Book of Mormon
and the restored gospel based on

58
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:45,160
where you think the, the, the
the the events took place, stop

59
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,480
it because you're going to be
sorely disappointed.

60
00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,160
Get a testimony of the spiritual
stuff and then dive into this.

61
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,640
But this is going to be fun.
I am so excited.

62
00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,560
And just so everybody knows out
there, I'm kind of AI am a

63
00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,480
heartlander, more of a soft
heartlander, but a heartlander

64
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,120
nonetheless.
And you should approach these

65
00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:11,360
things kind of with this mindset
of if tomorrow where I think the

66
00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,040
Book of Mormon took place, if it
was proved otherwise that it

67
00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,279
took place in Central America,
you should be able to take that

68
00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,880
and run with it, right?
This shouldn't be something that

69
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,600
you base your whole testimony
around.

70
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,480
Well, my testimony is hanging by
a thread buddy that might I have

71
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,920
to be right or?
If I'm done, you know you gotta

72
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,200
be right.
Right now, I'll do my best.

73
00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,080
I'll do my best to make sure I
preserve.

74
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:33,600
That for you?
You're going to wreck me.

75
00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,200
Good.
All right, let's go.

76
00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:38,800
All right, you going to let me
share my screen?

77
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,040
Didn't I already grant you
permissions on that?

78
00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:42,640
Oh, now you did.
Awesome.

79
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:50,400
Thank you.
Here we go.

80
00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:02,560
The Preface.
So you've been around this block

81
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,040
a few times.
Yes.

82
00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:11,600
If you were to ask a Heartlander
to justify what they believe,

83
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,200
typically, what do they resort
to right off the bat?

84
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,400
Typically it's something said by
Joseph Smith about the letter he

85
00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,560
wrote back to Emma about
crossing the planes of the

86
00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,040
Nephites and those sorts of
things.

87
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:24,720
Very, very good.
Exactly.

88
00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,600
And if you were to do the same
to a meso Americanist, how would

89
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:30,600
they?
What would they?

90
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,720
What's their go to to justify
what they believe?

91
00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:39,040
So for them, I think a lot of it
is, is that the actual geography

92
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,880
fits down there as well as all
those ruins.

93
00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,960
And look, they had a thriving
civilization down there, right?

94
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,360
There were highways connected,
connected up from city to city.

95
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,360
I mean, they're, you know,
they're, they're, they're some

96
00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,600
good stuff.
It does talk about cement in the

97
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,440
Book of Mormon.
And I know there's a form of

98
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,280
cement down there that they use.
So those are typically what I

99
00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:02,560
hear.
Excellent.

100
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,080
Now, to be fair, I normally
don't take sides in this

101
00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:08,680
argument.
To be fair.

102
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,360
I just kind of stir the pot and
watch everybody else fight

103
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,240
because that's just good clean
family fun.

104
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,000
If you have a if you have a
gift, you got to share it.

105
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:17,320
That's right.
I got to share it.

106
00:06:17,840 --> 00:06:20,480
So I might, I might go to the
Heartlander guy and be like, you

107
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,200
hear what that Mesoamerican guy
just said.

108
00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,120
You got to take that from him.
Absolutely, yeah.

109
00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,840
No IA couple of my very best
friends in my ward.

110
00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,880
We go, we spar all the time over
this stuff and we have so much

111
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:34,280
fun.
As we should.

112
00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,280
So let's get some of the
official stuff out of the way.

113
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,200
Since the publication of the
Book of Mormon in 1830, members

114
00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,000
and leaders of The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day

115
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,320
Saints have expressed numerous
opinions about the specific

116
00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,480
locations of the events
discussed in the book.

117
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,320
Some believe that the history
depicted in the Book of Mormon,

118
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,360
with the exception of the events
in the Near East, occurred in

119
00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,680
North America, while others
believe that it occurred in

120
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,040
Central America or South
America, or I would some say the

121
00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,920
Baja Peninsula, some say
Madagascar, some say Indonesia.

122
00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:05,360
I mean, they're, they're all
over the place.

123
00:07:06,280 --> 00:07:09,560
Although church members continue
to discuss such theories today,

124
00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,880
the church's only position is
that the events of the Book of

125
00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,160
Mormon describes took place in
the ancient Americas.

126
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,680
The church does not take a
position on the specific

127
00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,600
geographical location of the
Book of Mormon events in the

128
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,720
ancient Americas.
Speculation on the geography of

129
00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,920
the Book of Mormon may mislead
instead of enlighten.

130
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,560
Such a study can be a
distraction from its divine

131
00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,480
purpose.
Individuals may have their own

132
00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,280
opinions regarding Book of
Mormon geography and other such

133
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,120
matters about which the Lord has
not spoken.

134
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,360
However, the First Presidency in
Quorum of the 12 Apostles for

135
00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,640
Latter Day Saints urged leaders
and members not at not to

136
00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:52,240
advocate those personal theories
in any setting or manner that

137
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,000
would imply either prophetic or
church support for those

138
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,720
theories.
And I'm going to interject here.

139
00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:02,720
So if you were to say, well, I'm
a Mesoamericanist because Joseph

140
00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,360
Fielding Smith really believed
in that.

141
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,400
I mean, that's where I'm off
base, where I'm trying to make

142
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,600
some sort of authoritative claim
that some authority in the

143
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,160
church is telling me I need to
believe that.

144
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,800
That's that's off base.
I think all parties, and here's

145
00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,680
the important part, all parties,
Dave, should strive to avoid

146
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,840
contention on these matters.
Yeah.

147
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,160
All right.
All right.

148
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,080
And here's an interesting 1 for
me.

149
00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:34,840
In 1993, Office of the First
Presidency Presidency sent this

150
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,039
letter to FARMS, the old
Foundation for Ancient Research

151
00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:41,760
Mormon studies, now defunct.
The Church emphasizes the

152
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,800
doctrinal and historical value
of the Book of Mormon, not its

153
00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,440
geography.
While some Latter Day Saints

154
00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,960
have looked for possible
locations and explanations for

155
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,400
Book of Mormon geography,
because the New York Kill Kimora

156
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,840
does not readily fit the Book of
Mormon description of Kimora,

157
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,840
there are no conclusive
connections between the Book of

158
00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,600
Mormon text and any specific
site.

159
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,960
I recognize.
That's a good, what, 30 years

160
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:08,200
ago already?
Where'd the time go?

161
00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,360
But the church, the LDS Church,
very wisely stays out of the

162
00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,160
fray because as far as I'm
concerned, they, they, they keep

163
00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,240
their eyes on the prize.
Right.

164
00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,240
Which is to preach the gospel
and redeem the dead.

165
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:26,280
That's the thereabout.
All right.

166
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,760
So as I introduced this thing
initially, what you express is

167
00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:39,280
basically what Neil rapidly said
in his article about this.

168
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,640
In general, there are three
types of evidence.

169
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,080
The so-called prophetic evidence
statements, Joseph Smith and

170
00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,840
those, some of those are, well,
we have to question a lot, all

171
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,000
of them because they're
historical, coming from either

172
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,280
prophetic passages in the Book
of Mormon or things said by

173
00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,600
Joseph Smith or another modern
day prophet.

174
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,680
The second type of evidence is
anthropological evidence,

175
00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:04,040
archaeological, cultural,
linguistic, or even genetic data

176
00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,320
from ancient America, which both
parties rely on that to some

177
00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,160
extent they do #3 geographic
evidence, the actual lay of the

178
00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:15,720
land, geologic, topographic, and
hydrologic information,

179
00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,160
etcetera, which tends to be
where the Mesoamericanists tend

180
00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:20,400
to lean.
Right.

181
00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:24,560
So far so good.
So far so good.

182
00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:28,520
Making sense?
So as we talk about these, as we

183
00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,640
talk at the about these
prophetic statements, I'm going

184
00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:38,440
to digress just a little bit
with this idea of the, the

185
00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:44,360
notion of official doctrine.
And because all iterations of

186
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,880
Mormonism come from the place
where this principle was

187
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,320
established, how to determine
official doctrine?

188
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,600
I think we all have buy into
this to some extent.

189
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,280
And I also think it cuts all
ways with all parties because I

190
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,280
think we're all guilty at one
point or another of trying to

191
00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,120
elevate somebody's ideas, pet
ideas and teachings as more than

192
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,840
what it is.
All right.

193
00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,360
What is official doctrine and
how is it established?

194
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,800
Church history reveals a clearly
established procedure that has

195
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,600
been carefully followed for over
180 years.

196
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,880
Doctrine Covenant 2813 explains
all things must be done in order

197
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,960
and by common consent of the
Church, by the prayer of faith.

198
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,560
Since the Church was founded in
1830, new doctrine has been

199
00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:38,920
accepted 6 times exactly.
On every occasion a three-step

200
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,680
process was followed to add
official doctrine.

201
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,480
It requires the approval of the
First Presidency, the

202
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,680
concurrence of the Quorum of the
12 Apostles, and then it must be

203
00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:51,160
accepted in a sustaining vote of
the entire membership.

204
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,640
Only then is it binding on the
membership of the Church.

205
00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,560
The change will then be made to
the body of accepted canonized

206
00:11:57,560 --> 00:11:58,680
scriptures.
And then it gives those

207
00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:03,000
occasions when that happened in
the Bible of the Book of Mormon

208
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,880
were officially accepted.
Doctrine Covenants 1st 103

209
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,640
sections officially accepted.
1880, Section 132.

210
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,160
Oh, I'm sorry, additional 32
sections were accepted along

211
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,440
with the Pearl of Great Price
1890.

212
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,600
Your favorite?
Be careful, Michelle Brady.

213
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:26,560
Stone's going to come get you.
Official Declaration 1976 The

214
00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:34,720
Church added 137 and 138 and
1978 The Official Declaration on

215
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,680
priesthood.
Revelation on priesthood raised

216
00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:39,640
from priesthood.
OK.

217
00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,520
Also now here's this is
interesting to me.

218
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,400
In 1921, the Church removed the
LDS Church removed the Lectures

219
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,640
on Faith from the Doctrine and
Covenants with the explanation

220
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,680
that they were never presented
to the church as being divinely

221
00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:55,880
revealed scripture.
They didn't follow that pattern,

222
00:12:57,720 --> 00:12:59,280
it was determined.
They simply did not measure up

223
00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,160
in.
On August 17th, 1835, when

224
00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,880
Joseph Smith was in Michigan,
Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Calvey

225
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,600
presented the Doctrine and
Covenants to a General Assembly

226
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,000
to become a law to the Church, a
rule of faith and practice which

227
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,400
did not follow the guidance for
a new official doctrine.

228
00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,080
Now this is also interesting.
It surprises a lot of my LDS

229
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,320
friends.
There are five items that are

230
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,000
often assumed to be official
doctrine but failed the above

231
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,000
standard.
Official toxic statements,

232
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:34,240
official publications, official
policy and procedures, books by

233
00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,280
general authorities, and
conventional wisdom.

234
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:44,080
They are not official doctrine.
They can be good doctrine, they

235
00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,120
can be solid doctrine, they can
be wise doctrines.

236
00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,880
But the church is very
particular about what it commits

237
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,800
itself, marries itself to when
it gives it official doctrine.

238
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,280
And the reason the church it
does that is to protect itself

239
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,320
anyway.
Does that make sense to you?

240
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,320
Yeah.
That makes sense.

241
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,200
You know what's really funny
about this website?

242
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,760
This is where all this stuff is
listed and presented quite

243
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:17,160
beautifully. staylds.com.
Do you know who created that

244
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,200
website and who still maintains
it to this day?

245
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,440
I believe his name rhymes with
Don Jolin.

246
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,640
And he and he knows that he
still maintains this and to to

247
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,400
his credit, you know, is it,
this is a, a critical, critical

248
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,280
thing for us to understand when
we start talking about prophetic

249
00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,840
statements and, and opinions
even of the Prophet Joseph Smith

250
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:44,760
about certain things in our
lives.

251
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,040
It's critical for us to for us
to understand what is Canon and

252
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,000
what is not.
So we can, we can elevate his

253
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,440
opinion and give pay heed to it,
but not have to hold the church

254
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,520
as a body to it.
Now, how did Joseph Smith feel

255
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:07,480
about this concept?
What?

256
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:09,880
What?
I can't see that because of this

257
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:15,320
banner.
Oh well, contemporary of Joseph

258
00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:20,360
Smith stated Edward so and so.
I have heard the Prophet say

259
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,680
that he did not claim perfection
but possessed human weaknesses.

260
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,560
We know this, he said.
When I speak as a man, it is

261
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,720
Joseph only that speaks.
But when the Lord speaks through

262
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:36,000
me, it is no more Joseph Smith
who speaks, but it is God.

263
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,760
And let all Israel hear.
I think we know that, right?

264
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:44,440
We've heard that not every word
that comes out of his mouth was

265
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,360
the word of God.
And that or as I've heard you

266
00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,320
say about Brigham Young, I don't
worship Brigham Young, right?

267
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:58,480
And one of my favorite example
of this concept, Jesse, Jesse W

268
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,640
Crosby told us that tells us
what Brigham, what Joseph Smith

269
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,880
told him.
Joseph Smith said when some

270
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,000
other brother and I once went to
with some other brethren.

271
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,280
Jesse said I once went to the
Prophet and asked him to give us

272
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,000
his opinion on a certain public
question.

273
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:23,040
The request was refused.
He Joseph said that when he

274
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,360
ventured to give his private
opinion on any subject of

275
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:30,720
importance, his words were often
garbled, and their meaning

276
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,960
twisted, and then given out as
the word of the Lord, because

277
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:38,080
they came from him.
And now?

278
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,280
Right there is why I will never
start a branch of the

279
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,800
restoration, because that is
entirely too much headache to

280
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,600
worry about.
I loved it and I I don't know

281
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,560
when he said this.
I assume it was later on in his

282
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,720
life toward the end that he had
learned this hard lesson.

283
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,560
And what I find interesting is
when the Saints went to Utah to

284
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,240
Deseret, Briggie, Melanie in
particular, he just let fly

285
00:17:10,079 --> 00:17:12,800
because he was such a great
extemporaneous speaker and he

286
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,160
was very comfortable speculating
from the pulpit.

287
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:16,960
And speculation is really quite
extraordinary.

288
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,599
But as far as the latter Day St.
leadership today goes, they are

289
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,160
super careful for that very
reason.

290
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,720
Anyway, so all of this stuff.
If people forget in Brigham's

291
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,320
day, he can just let it RIP,
right, because he they're not

292
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,880
running any longer, right?
They're like we're we're out of

293
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,640
the United States.
You know, it's only it's only

294
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,440
friendlies here at the moment,
right?

295
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,000
I mean, there's he can he can
let it RIP.

296
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,840
He can talk about some things
that that, that that Joseph

297
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,520
probably told him that he just
couldn't talk about in Illinois

298
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,200
or that's true.
Certainly Missouri, right?

299
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,960
He's got, he's got a blank
check.

300
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,000
Do you imagine because he was.
Brigham Young was prophetic and

301
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,360
he saw the future in many
respects.

302
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,560
But I'll bet you, I'll bet you
anything he would be surprised

303
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,480
back then to know how his words
are spread around today.

304
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,760
I'll bet because he was out due
to all by himself.

305
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,920
I'll bet he'd freak about.
Man, I probably shouldn't have

306
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,120
said that about noon.
Or you.

307
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,440
Know well and and here's part of
the problem right and and I we

308
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:29,080
take it for granted today so
good buddy of mine shout out to

309
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,400
Tom He he said something once in
priesthood right after he I

310
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,960
moved here he said yeah look at
Dave.

311
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,160
I mean, he says things that are
going to be on the Internet

312
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,000
forever and I'm like, talk about
that anymore, right?

313
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,040
Like, like, you're freaking me
out.

314
00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,400
Let's not do that anymore.
But, but he's right, right.

315
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,960
And now the benefit to that is,
is that can they get to hear our

316
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,400
voice inflection?
They get to see our facial

317
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,120
expressions, right?
So if I say, if I say something

318
00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,000
like I just did about the
professor in Gilligan's Island,

319
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,880
no one's taking me serious,
right, right, right.

320
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,720
You don't get that from the
written word.

321
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,640
Sometimes you can deduce it, but
other times it gets a little

322
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:12,720
dicey, you know, And so I, I've
often wondered like, oh man, I

323
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,400
said that and they now they're
reading that and they don't get

324
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,040
that I was, I was joking around
or something, right.

325
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:25,040
And so, yeah, yeah, you got to
be super careful here.

326
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,160
You got to look at the source.
You got a source says, right.

327
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,800
I'm I'm a guy typically says
unless it's a direct journal

328
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,600
entry, I need two or three
sources that say relatively the

329
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,400
same thing before I'm willing to
to attribute it to Joseph.

330
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,000
Exactly.
Amen.

331
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,800
Which brings us, I mean, that
was a nice segue into this

332
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,880
concept of what's called
historical method, an academia

333
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:53,080
of recording a source.
There are not all historical

334
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,680
sources should be evaluated
equally.

335
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,480
It depends on at least these
four things #1 the closer a

336
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:04,640
source is to the event which it
supports, purports to describe,

337
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,120
but chronologically, the more
one can trust it to give an

338
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:10,840
accurate historical description
of what actually happened.

339
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,240
So, so and so told us what
Joseph Smith did 50 years

340
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,880
earlier is not going to hold
much water as opposed to.

341
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:21,920
He wrote this down the day it
happened.

342
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:27,000
Kind of right #2A primary source
is more reliable than a

343
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,040
secondary source, which is more
reliable than a tertiary source.

344
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:32,400
Yep.
And so on.

345
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,200
Do you know what you call a
third hand?

346
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,800
A third hand witness in court?
Hearsay.

347
00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:41,960
Yep.
I was going to.

348
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,640
I was going to say not evidence,
right, Right.

349
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,520
The anti Mormons love those
tertiary sources.

350
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:49,240
Yep, because they'll say
anything.

351
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,160
Yep.
Especially if your name is

352
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:55,160
William McClellan.
Oh yeah, 50 years after the

353
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:56,120
fact.
Right.

354
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,480
Joseph Smith's wife, Emma, his
widow, decided to confide in me

355
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,480
the most personal thing that she
would never confide in anybody.

356
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,680
The guy, me, William McClellan,
who stole all the bedding out of

357
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,000
her house when she was trying to
give it to Joseph at Liberty

358
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:12,720
Jail.
I mean, who's going to believe

359
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,000
that?
Everybody who wants to attack

360
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:21,560
the church, all right #3 the
tendency of a source is its

361
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,800
motivation for providing some
kind of bias.

362
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,520
Is it a hostile source?
Is it a source?

363
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,240
It's a little too friendly.
Joseph Smith could do no wrong,

364
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,320
you know.
Right.

365
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,400
Bias and #4 If, as you were just
saying, if two independent

366
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,960
sources agree on a matter, the
reliability is enhanced.

367
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,840
If the source is different from
one another, we have to start

368
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,240
asking questions anyway.
That's we refer to that as the

369
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,760
historical method.
So on with the prophetic

370
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:57,720
evidence.
And I start here with Kimura in

371
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:02,040
in my view, that's the
heartlander's stake in the map

372
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:07,280
that the hill and Palmyra that
we refer to as the hill Kimura

373
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,720
is the same hill Kimura that is
mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

374
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:19,600
And I it wasn't until fairly
recently that it occurred to me

375
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,680
that a lot of members of the
church have they do stake their

376
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,160
testimony because they were
raised with the concept that the

377
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:32,040
hill and Palmyra is the hill of
records is the hill of Kimura.

378
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,200
And for any latter day St. or
any Mormon of any kind to

379
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,240
suggest that it's not that we
are that that's sacrilege.

380
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,040
We're denying the faith.
So here's some things.

381
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,320
By the way, the reason I'm
starting here instead of jumping

382
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,560
in with the Mesa American model
and I hope it's OK.

383
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,160
Yeah, absolutely is because I I
fully expect the majority of

384
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,400
people who I hope will listen to
this are heartlanders.

385
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,200
And I know they're devout
people, good people, friends,

386
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:08,200
right.
Sure.

387
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:15,880
And if they're going to give any
space whatsoever to what I want

388
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,760
to present about the
Mesoamerican model, I have to be

389
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,840
able to 1st to give them a
reasonable alternative to some

390
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,040
of the things they believe about
the Heartlanders, the Heartland

391
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:28,280
model.
Does that make sense?

392
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,920
Yeah.
So what I want, So what I want

393
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,800
to present here at the beginning
are some reasonable explanations

394
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:40,400
why.
Ken Peterson at least even

395
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:45,120
though I, even though I, I know
the same things they know about

396
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:48,280
the Heartland model that I, I
don't buy into it, right.

397
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,800
So that's that's what this is
about.

398
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,560
OK.
From the fair Latter Day St.

399
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,240
website, the Book of Mormon does
not state that the plates of

400
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,720
Mormon were buried in the hill
Kimura, Speaking of the hill in

401
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,640
Palmyra.
In fact, the Book of Mormon

402
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,400
states that the plates were not
buried in Kimura at that time,

403
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,920
but were given to Moroni to
safeguard until it came time for

404
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,800
them to be put in their ultimate
place of deposit.

405
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:21,600
What do I mean by that?
So this is Mormon chapter 6,

406
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,520
verse 6.
And it came to pass that when we

407
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,800
had gathered in all our people
in one to the land of Comora,

408
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,280
which is there, this is the
gathering for the great last

409
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,800
battle.
Behold, I Mormon made this

410
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,360
record and he's talking about
the gold plates.

411
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,760
Right, right.
Out of the plates of Nephi, and

412
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,440
hid up in the hill Camorra side
of the great last battle, which

413
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,160
is the same as the hill of Rama
for the Jeddites.

414
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,880
All the records which had been
entrusted to me by the hand of

415
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:56,000
the Lord, which were quite a
few, save or accept it, were

416
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,680
these few plates which I gave
unto my son Moroni.

417
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,080
And what plates were those?
The gold plates.

418
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,120
So Moroni chapter 6, verse 6, he
says, I put all the other plates

419
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:11,680
in The Cave in Kimura, and I
took these gold plates, the

420
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,920
abridgement to become the Book
of Mormon, and I gave them to

421
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,840
Moroni.
OK, what did he what did he do

422
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,120
with all the other ones?
Sealed them up in The Cave and

423
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:23,440
left them there.
And then everybody got killed,

424
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,800
including Mormon.
And Moroni did what?

425
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:31,800
He took the gold plates with him
wherever he went, and he fled

426
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,960
for his life.
So what the Book of Mormon

427
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:41,000
specifically does not teach is
that the gold plates, at least

428
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,800
at that time, were not deposited
in the original hill kimura in

429
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,720
the Book of Mormon.
All right.

430
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,760
This demonstrates that the
burial plates of the rest of the

431
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,360
plates from the people of
Nephites were buried at the hill

432
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,880
where the Nephite destruction
took place, The actual ancient

433
00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,760
kimura.
So far so good.

434
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,520
I think so.
So what you're saying here is

435
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:08,320
that there's nothing that says
Joseph went to the hill Kimura

436
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,200
in Palmyra to get the records?
Is that what I'm understanding?

437
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,480
Joseph Smith never, but from
what I've read and studied, he

438
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,960
never called it Hill Kimura.
The Angel of Moroni never

439
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,040
identified it.
But now we're talking about the

440
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:25,720
hill in Palmyra, right?
Right.

441
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,960
Angel Moroni never called it
Hill Kimura.

442
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,000
Oliver County was one of the
first, oh, WW Phelps was the

443
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:41,320
first in 1830. 3:00 And then in
1835, we have an account of

444
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,600
Oliver Calvary calling it
Kimora.

445
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,880
And then it became, and then it
became tradition to call it

446
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,280
Kimora by everyone else.
And then at the Doctrine and

447
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:56,480
Covenants, we haven't mentioned,
you know, and from Kimora, the

448
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,680
voice of the Angel from Kimora,
right?

449
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,840
Yeah.
So, OK, so let me push back on

450
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,560
this a little bit here as I'm
thinking about this.

451
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:14,960
So for the last almost 200 years
now, we've had this thought that

452
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,200
the hill Kimura is the hill
situated by where Joseph lived.

453
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,520
And we made the assumption
that's where he went and got the

454
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,640
plates based off of something
that was said by WW Phelps and

455
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,440
Oliver Cowdery.
Is that your assertion?

456
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,520
Not quite.
They begin to have questions

457
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,960
about if that was actually the
hill kimura even in the 1800s,

458
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,600
as early as the 18th, late 1840s
when the Stevens accounts came

459
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,440
out, some of the very first
records of the Mesoamerican

460
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,560
cultures.
So it I, I will say I and I, I

461
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,320
think I was one of them.
I think most of us, just most of

462
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:59,840
us grew up believing 2 whoppers
about the Book of Mormon.

463
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,920
And most Latter Day Saints and
Joseph Smith's time, including

464
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,640
Brigham Young and others
believed that the geography of

465
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,320
the Book of Mormon was
hemispheric.

466
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,960
I mean, who?
Who didn't First time you read

467
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,320
the Book of Mormon?
Narrow neck of land.

468
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,840
Narrow neck of land.
Aha, it's Panama.

469
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,080
The land southward is South
America.

470
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,400
Boo.
The land northward is the good

471
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,880
guys.
That's us.

472
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,640
That's the land of the Nephites,
the land northward and all

473
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:28,880
desolation and all that sort of
stuff.

474
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,240
It it seemed really obvious to
us, OK.

475
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,320
And it was Oliver Cadre, for
example, who said Lehi landed in

476
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,440
Chile.
Right.

477
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,280
But then later, but their their
their ideas did change.

478
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:51,120
Brigham Young even later said
that Central America was where

479
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,080
the Nephite civilization was as
time went on.

480
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,960
OK, suffice to say, in my view,
I don't think any of them knew

481
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,320
exactly where anything was.
How could they?

482
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,880
They didn't know anything about
ancient America, really so.

483
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,560
So let me ask you this, do you,
why does why does Phelps make

484
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,240
the assertion?
Because you asked me to push

485
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:16,960
back here a little bit.
So I'm going to push back.

486
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,440
Why does Phelps and Calgary both
say that it's that hill that was

487
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,440
called Kimora by where Joseph
lived?

488
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,360
Neither of those men were from
that area, right?

489
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,840
They wouldn't be familiar with
that particular hill.

490
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,680
Phelps, I think, is born in New
Jersey.

491
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,360
Calgary, I think, comes in from
traveling and meets Joseph.

492
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,040
But by the time he says scribe,
aren't they in Pennsylvania

493
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,040
translating it?
So it seems like it would just

494
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,040
pushing back here.
It would seem like a far stretch

495
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,040
for them to name Kimora if
Joseph hadn't been the one that

496
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,240
said, yeah, I got him out of
that hill over there.

497
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,680
You know that hill back where I
used to live called Kimora.

498
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,680
Do you see what I'm saying?
Yeah, yeah.

499
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,960
So the assumption is that
because they believed it, Joseph

500
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,080
Smith must have said it to them.
But that's that has to be remain

501
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:16,040
an assumption because we have
nothing, no record of Joseph

502
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,040
Smith to my knowledge, actually
calling that.

503
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,040
Now, of course, they would know
the account of him retrieving

504
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:23,920
the record from the hill.
Right.

505
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,480
Wrong.
I put it and I and I would

506
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,880
imagine they would make that
assumption for the same reason

507
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:33,080
they assumed the hemispheric
model, a Book of Mormon

508
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,520
geography.
I guess my point is Heartlander.

509
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,000
Don't believe that either.
Right.

510
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,680
I guess my thought would be,
however, they wouldn't know

511
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,480
about the Hill Kimura unless
someone who had intimate

512
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,120
knowledge of that area told them
about it, because they both

513
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,760
encounter Joseph Smith after
he's left that area.

514
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:54,680
Do you see what I'm saying?
They weren't familiar.

515
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,960
I mean, they would certainly
know Kimora from the record

516
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,880
itself and the Book of Mormon
and would Revere.

517
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,640
The from the from the record,
right.

518
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,520
And so when Joseph goes to
collect that record, right, I

519
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,000
can imagine the only way I could
think that those two would even

520
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,000
make an association even know
that there was a hill called

521
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:17,160
Kimora out by where he he lived
was if Joseph said, yeah, there

522
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,480
was this hill called Kimora.
And that's where I went and got

523
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,800
the plates, 'cause they're not
going to have the same access to

524
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,760
information that we have today,
right?

525
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:26,800
And I'm just throwing things out
there.

526
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,760
You asked me to push back a
little bit here, Ken.

527
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,520
I I don't want to have this be
anything too heated.

528
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,200
Stop apologizing, but baby, go
you go.

529
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,280
But I I'm having a hard time
understanding how people who

530
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,280
aren't from that region would be
able to label that hill kimura.

531
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,840
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I I hear what you're

532
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:54,120
saying.
It seems like they made they

533
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,720
made lots of assumptions about
lots of things.

534
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:03,160
Sure in because of the ignorance
of their understanding of the

535
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,760
ancient inhabitants or any
history of the American

536
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:13,080
continent at all.
So I and I also allow because we

537
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,520
don't have any record of him
saying that Joseph Smith, right.

538
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,080
Then it's also possible that he
did, but what we also know is

539
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,080
that later in life he was open
to other options.

540
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,680
Sure, probably.
Like I said, probably because

541
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:31,760
they were all, and I may get in
trouble for saying this.

542
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,560
I don't believe they understood
the context for the book of the

543
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,880
historical context for the Book
of Mormon better than we do

544
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,360
today.
I don't think it was possible

545
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,640
for them to do that.
We've had that book for over

546
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:51,320
well, for 195 years, digitally
and otherwise, and we've had

547
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:55,760
some of the wisest and most
inspired minds on earth study

548
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,040
the book and give us all kinds
of insights about the book.

549
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,360
And we know more about ancient
America than anyone ever has.

550
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:11,400
Part of me says, why are we?
Why are we referring to people

551
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,000
from the 1830s who knew nothing
about ancient America to tell me

552
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:22,560
how to perceive the history of
this book, you know?

553
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,040
My my.
Yes, he yes, he translated it,

554
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,400
yes, but as we well know, there
are things he translated he

555
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,560
didn't even understand.
Right, right.

556
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,960
OK.
So, so here we're, we're, we,

557
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,680
we've, I think we've established
that.

558
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,320
Joseph never said on record that
we have that.

559
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,200
He went and got those plates
from the hill kimura just

560
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,560
outside of Palmyra.
That's true.

561
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,960
OK, that's true.
No, nowhere in any official

562
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,680
statement or even an unofficial
statement, digital system to say

563
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,360
this hill is where the great and
last battle occurred for the

564
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,360
Nephites and the Jaredites.
This is Kimura.

565
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:01,680
This is Hill Rama.
We don't.

566
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,200
To my knowledge.
We don't have that.

567
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,760
Historical accounts of artifacts
found at the site by farmers and

568
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,320
so forth are only
unsubstantiated folklore

569
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,679
accounts.
Even if true, the accounts show

570
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:19,159
that the arrowheads that could
be found were tampered with and

571
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:22,560
carried away and sold.
So there is nothing left but the

572
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,679
accounts themselves, which are
not archaeological evidence in

573
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,480
themselves.
And if arrowheads were found

574
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,120
there, does that really prove
that it was Kimura?

575
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:37,159
Arrowheads found at any location
in the United States is an

576
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:40,840
unremarkable thing to begin
with, as they can be found all

577
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,199
over the country in a great many
sites.

578
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,159
So even if things were found,
still wouldn't prove much.

579
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,880
So we so the argument is that's
Kimura.

580
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,760
Where are all the artifacts, the
weapons, the remains, what have

581
00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:00,920
you to our knowledge?
I mean, we hear accounts and

582
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,920
you'll read them on the the Firm
Foundation, Book of Mormon,

583
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,360
evidence.com, the Meldrum site,
but there were buckets of

584
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,760
arrowheads and yet there's no
archaeological record.

585
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,240
They have archaeological record
of arrowheads and ancient

586
00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:19,840
Americans in further east of New
York.

587
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,920
But well, where Palmyra is,
there's nothing hasn't been for

588
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,120
a while.
Well, for recorded history,

589
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,600
modern history.
But couldn't that be be

590
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,720
something where where people
just picked them all up or

591
00:35:33,720 --> 00:35:38,720
cultivated the ground and.
Yeah, I mean, it's possible, but

592
00:35:38,720 --> 00:35:41,440
I mean, not even one left.
I mean, because they're farming

593
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:42,760
and turning that soil all the
time.

594
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:52,040
So we I I'm a hopeless eternal
skeptic, and anecdotal evidence

595
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,000
doesn't go very far with me.
OK.

596
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,880
Now we can talk about Zilf.
You want to talk about Kimura

597
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,280
some more or are we good?
I think, I think we're good

598
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:03,880
there.
I, I, I just want to make sure I

599
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:08,920
understand what your thought is.
Is that because we have no

600
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,560
official statement from the from
from Joseph saying, yeah, I went

601
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,400
and got him out of that hill
called Kimura and Palmyra that

602
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:21,040
that's in flux?
Well #1 because Mormon chapter 6

603
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:26,360
verse 6 says all the other
plates are buried in Kimura and

604
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,320
then Marone I took the old
plates and left.

605
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:34,000
OK.
So if that hill in Palmyra is

606
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,040
the kimura of the Book of
Mormon, those records should all

607
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,360
still be there.
Gotcha.

608
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:44,840
Part of the problem, the hill in
Palmyra is what is known as a

609
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,160
drumlin hill, right?
It's, it's a big old pile of

610
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,640
gravel.
It's one of the biggest ones in

611
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,080
the area that gets pushed up,
was pushed up by the glaciers

612
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,120
during the last Ice Age, pushed
up this big gravel pile.

613
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,320
And those drumlin hills don't
have any caves because it's a

614
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,120
pile of gravel.
There's no cave system.

615
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,160
And people have searched and
sounded and looked.

616
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,440
I mean, it hasn't.
It has never been excavated.

617
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,640
To be fair, that'd be kind of
fun.

618
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:17,400
But realistically speaking, it's
there are no records in there.

619
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:23,760
There's no cave system in there.
Now, there is that vision that

620
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,960
Oliver Calvi shared.
Brigham Young also shared it.

621
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,360
Six people have shared the
vision of the hill opening up.

622
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,400
And I'm seeing all these records
in the sort of Laban and the

623
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,560
Laihona.
Right.

624
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,200
And I'm, I'm not discounting the
vision.

625
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:41,120
I just, I know as a matter of
fact that it's not in the hill.

626
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,720
What does it mean that they
probably had a vision of the

627
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:46,360
Hill Kimura from the Book of
Mormon?

628
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,800
OK, so did you see the episode I
did with Rod?

629
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,240
I did a little bit, yeah.
Did you see the part where he

630
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:56,600
showed the cavern that was found
in that hill?

631
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,520
No.
OK there is a cavern that was

632
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,680
discovered by some kid falling
into it not that long ago

633
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,200
Actually looks like it had been
been covered up.

634
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,240
Kid was walking, fell into it
and it was deep and it looked

635
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:16,000
like it was man made at some
point.

636
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,600
Why don't more people know about
this?

637
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,720
I don't know.
He showed pictures on here.

638
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:22,120
Where?
Wow.

639
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:27,440
I'd like, yeah.
Yeah, go back and look at it.

640
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,360
I'll see if I can't find it and
time time stamp it for you and

641
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,160
send it.
But there was something there

642
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,800
I'd be curious to get your take
on it.

643
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:39,600
So that's that's the last thing
on on Kimura that I.

644
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,120
Very good, very good by the way,
Rod is.

645
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:48,040
I like him personally.
I've never met him personally,

646
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,560
but I've heard him on a number
of podcasts and he seems like a

647
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,120
really good guy.
And so I don't want any.

648
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,320
I don't want anybody, least of
all him, to mistake me, as you

649
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,000
know, no coming down on him.
Look, but.

650
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,000
But I do have a lot of questions
for him.

651
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,200
I mean, that's fair.
As he would have, yeah.

652
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,040
And, and I'm sure he yeah, no.
And look, that's OK, right?

653
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,840
We've got to get past this idea
that if we disagree on

654
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,320
something, we have to be
enemies.

655
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,880
We don't.
This is one of those things we

656
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,720
should be willing to hash out
together and, and even have good

657
00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:20,120
discussions and debate around.
Amen.

658
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,560
And not split over.
Now here we talk Zelph's

659
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,560
controversial character.
While marching Zions camp in

660
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,000
1834, Joseph Smith and the
Brethren visited many of the

661
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,760
mounds which Wilfred would have
speculated were flung up,

662
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,400
probably by the Nephites and
Lamanites.

663
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,120
In a letter to Emma, Joseph
Smith said they had been

664
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,720
wandering over the plains of the
Nephites, recounting

665
00:39:40,720 --> 00:39:42,560
occasionally the history of the
Book of Mormon.

666
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,720
That's what Joseph Smith said.
Joseph even said they were

667
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:49,000
picking up their skulls and
their bones as a proof of its

668
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,320
divine authenticity.
The state of Illinois records

669
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,920
this event as one of the first
archaeological finds in the

670
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,320
state.
Really.

671
00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:01,040
I mean, yeah, it's a real thing.
For Illinois to do that, I mean,

672
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,320
look, no offense to anyone
living in Illinois, but nothing

673
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,040
good comes out of Illinois,
right?

674
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:11,080
I mean, you got Oprah.
Come on now.

675
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,760
Come on, Obama.
The Bears.

676
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,680
Like they, they topped out with
the the Bulls.

677
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:20,680
The Bulls, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

678
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,640
Well, yeah, yeah.
Let's first of all, I I just

679
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,400
want to talk about planes and
the planes of the Nephites very

680
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,400
quickly.
This is a wonderful first hand

681
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,720
account of Joseph Smith himself
talking about the planes of the

682
00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:33,760
Nephites.
Where are the planes of the

683
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,400
Nephites discussed in the Book
of Mormon?

684
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:39,920
I probably should have read up
on all this.

685
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,680
Enlighten me.
They're not.

686
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,200
OK, there are two other planes
that are mentioned with the

687
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:47,360
planes of the Nephites are not
mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

688
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:52,080
So what?
We and we can deduce whatever we

689
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,640
want, I suppose, but to me that
means that Joseph Smith was

690
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,360
talking about something that
wasn't mentioned in the Book of

691
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:02,280
Mormon.
Which means he had, he had, as

692
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,720
we've discussed before on here
about Joseph Smith, he was

693
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:06,720
operating on a different level.
Right.

694
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:10,480
I, I, I do believe he had
revelation at that point, right.

695
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,000
And I don't doubt that where
they were would be could be

696
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,560
called the plains of the new
fights.

697
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,200
But we'll talk more about that
when we actually get to the

698
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,000
geography point.
OK, Second paragraph, exactly

699
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,720
whose elf was or how his story
relates to Book of Mormon

700
00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:25,160
events.
Well, let me stop right there.

701
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,600
There's a thought that I would
like to interject and that what

702
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,800
we do know about the Western
Hemisphere is that the entire

703
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,960
hemisphere was populated by
Native Americans, Alaskan

704
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,280
Indians, Chilean and
Argentinians and, and every

705
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,640
place in between.
They were everywhere but in some

706
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:50,800
small number for the most part
and nomadic in many, many parts.

707
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:56,840
But the evidence of that alone
tells us that Native American

708
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,800
civilization, whatever that
civilization was, we'll talk

709
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,400
more about that was everywhere.
And as you've wise rightly

710
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,480
pointed out, there was trade
occurring between certain North

711
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,360
American regions and Central
American regions and Central

712
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,000
American and South American
regions.

713
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,680
Right.
Yeah, we're finding Michigan

714
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:20,560
Copper down with the Mayas.
And I think it's the Mayans,

715
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,360
don't quote me on that, but
someone down South of the border

716
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,840
there, there's Michigan copper
there, right?

717
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,640
And it's copper that had to have
been extracted beforehand.

718
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,720
And, and look, this is where
I'll tell you where I really

719
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,200
feel on the whole thing, right?
And, and I'm going to continue

720
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,280
to push back through this a
little bit, but I'm kind of a

721
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,080
soft heartlander, right, for
lack of a better term.

722
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,960
And, and Ken and I discussed
this before we jumped on I, I

723
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:48,960
tend to my hit what I know about
people.

724
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:51,320
We don't stay static for very
long, right?

725
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:55,120
We can, there's always that
party or that person is pushing

726
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,320
the boundaries of exploration a
little bit.

727
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,520
And so this idea that if if
there's Michigan copper down

728
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:07,960
South, given what I have studied
in history and what history

729
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,360
shows us is that when you have
trade going on, you're also

730
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:17,080
going to get cross pollinization
of ideas, principles and

731
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,880
theories.
And so even if it was a, you

732
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,160
know, as I believe most of it
took place up here to say there

733
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,800
weren't outposts of a thriving
civilization, civilization down

734
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,680
South, I don't think that would
necessarily be accurate either.

735
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,200
Well, it the book we need to
keep in mind, too, that the Book

736
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:40,200
of Mormon explicitly teaches
that there were at least three

737
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,920
massive northward migrations
that were never heard from

738
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,480
again, right?
He's talking about Hagoth

739
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,360
because he got that cool name
and he's on his ship.

740
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,240
But there were people who went
on foot into the land northward,

741
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,920
never to return, right?
Right.

742
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,640
And I might as well bring it up
here, but there is another The

743
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:02,840
third great false assumption
about the Book of Mormon is that

744
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,320
the great and last battle at
Kilrama, the Jaredites killed

745
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,840
every last Jaredite.
Right.

746
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,840
That's like saying if the
Democrats and the Republicans

747
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,640
went after each other to kill
each other in Washington, DC,

748
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,040
everybody in the United States
would kill each other.

749
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,120
And even in even in our day
where we know what's going on,

750
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,840
right, that would never happen.
There would always be survivors

751
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,840
in the Jaredites day where they
did not have any means of mass

752
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,920
communication.
All of these and the and the

753
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,160
Jaredites by the way, by the
time that great last battle

754
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,120
happened, the Jaredites had been
there almost 2000 years.

755
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,240
They were you know, they went
everywhere.

756
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,200
The evidence indicates that same
genetic material from Alaska to

757
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:52,920
Chile with a couple of really
weird outliers.

758
00:44:53,440 --> 00:45:00,840
But and just because the capital
in the capital of the the

759
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:02,760
Jaredite capital killed each
other, doesn't mean every

760
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,120
Jaredite on the Western
Hemisphere ended up killing each

761
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,600
other, right?
That's a it's one of those huge

762
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,280
false assumptions that we jump
at in the Book of Mormon because

763
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:11,680
we didn't know any better.
Right.

764
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:16,040
And clearly, archaeology,
anthropology, history teaches us

765
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,320
the Native Americans were here.
Yep.

766
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:21,320
Yeah.
Welcome.

767
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,120
Yeah.
Some of them to welcome Lehman

768
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,920
millennial and some not to.
All right, all right.

769
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,520
Exactly who Zelf was or how his
history relates to Book of

770
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,360
Mormon events, however, remains
uncertain.

771
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,280
In an account published as part
of the history of Joseph Smith

772
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,640
in 1846 after Joseph Smith's
death.

773
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,560
And this is where we get the
official, the so-called official

774
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,280
account, the one that people are
aware of.

775
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,360
Zelf was directly linked to the
final battles fought between the

776
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,480
Nephites and Lamanites in the
4th century.

777
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,320
The visions and, and I'm quoting
it now, the visions of the past

778
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,800
being open to my understanding
by the spirit of the Almighty, I

779
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,760
discovered that the person whose
skeleton was before us was a

780
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,440
white Lamanite.
He was a warrior and a Chieftain

781
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,760
under the great prophet
Omandagus, who was known from

782
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:12,200
the hill Camara or Eastern Sea
to the Rocky Mountains.

783
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,920
His name was Zelf.
He was killed in battle by the

784
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,920
arrow found among his ribs
during the last great struggle

785
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,280
of the Lamanites and Nephites.
So you understand why the

786
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,280
Heartlander loves this?
Because it basically proves

787
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,400
everything they're saying.
Right.

788
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,920
Despite it sounding like it was
written in Joseph Smith first

789
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:49,680
person voice, he left behind no
direct statements about Zell, no

790
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,120
first person accounts from
Joseph.

791
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,520
Because this account mentions
Kimura, the last great struggle

792
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:01,840
between the Lamanites and knee
fights, some have taken this as

793
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,960
a prophetic statement about Book
of Mormon geography.

794
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,560
However, when this account is
compared against the manuscript

795
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,800
history of the church and the
earlier sources on self, the

796
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,400
explicit connections to Book of
Mormon places and events become

797
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:20,320
tenuous.
Which is to say, I'm going to

798
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:27,560
skip ahead for just a second.
Here are the five original

799
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:33,680
accounts, original second hand
accounts of that event.

800
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:43,080
Excuse me, they're all very
early Hebrew Kimball's is the

801
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,960
latest, but look at what they do
not agree on.

802
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,600
Which of those five accounts
mentioned Till Kimura?

803
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,800
One.
Out of the five, only Wilfred.

804
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,280
Which of them mentioned the last
battle?

805
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,280
Only Hebrews C Kimball, which
talked about the Nephites?

806
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,400
None of them.
Which talked about Zelf being a

807
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,200
warrior?
Everybody but Moses Martin,

808
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,480
right that he was a Lamanite?
Everybody but Moses Martin who

809
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,840
said he was righteous?
Three of them said he was.

810
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,200
Two of them didn't say.
Interesting.

811
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,360
This is a very common practice
time period to take the

812
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,320
journals, put an idea together
and whoever was in charge of the

813
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,680
journal would, you know, massage
it to make it how they

814
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:29,200
remembered it, right?
Sure.

815
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,600
Why would they remember it
differently?

816
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,880
It's hard to say.
What was that a, you know, part

817
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:34,480
of what was in their head that
they were injecting?

818
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,600
Hard to say.
So #1 none of the early accounts

819
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,280
about zelf written by people in
science can't mentions the

820
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,720
Nephites.
Furthermore, in the pre

821
00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:50,680
publication manuscript written
in 1842 and 43 under Joseph

822
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,920
Smith's guidance and direction
and Nephites is crossed out.

823
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,160
But it got but it got in in
1846.

824
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:03,920
Anyway #2 the last great
struggle as with the as with and

825
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,280
Nephites.
The word last is actually

826
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,400
crossed out in the pre
publication manuscript prepared

827
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,360
under Joseph Smith's direction.
Thus, when reading the prepared

828
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,640
the pre publication manuscript
without the crossed out phrases,

829
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,240
we only find that Zelf, himself
a Lamanite, was killed during a

830
00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:24,320
great struggle with the
lamanites #3 Kilcamara.

831
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:26,720
Once again in the pre
publication manuscript,

832
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:30,400
Kilcamara is crossed out and
thus Onondagus is only said to

833
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,640
be known from the Eastern Sea to
the Rocky Mountains.

834
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:35,520
So.
Nobody injected.

835
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:38,120
Do we know who made the
revisions on that?

836
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,720
No.
I don't think there's any way to

837
00:49:40,720 --> 00:49:42,600
know that.
Interesting, but it was.

838
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,120
But those those things that were
crossed out were under DOS

839
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:47,600
misdirection while he was still
alive.

840
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,720
The printed publication was
published after he was dead, so

841
00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:53,040
he wouldn't be able to correct
that if he.

842
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:54,280
Gotcha.
OK.

843
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,120
Can you see the top of that?
I can't see that in some blah

844
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:01,520
blah, blah blah.
Can you read that?

845
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:06,360
In some, all details connecting
Zelf to specific Book of Mormon

846
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,920
places or events in the history
of the Church article are

847
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:14,000
crossed out in the pre
publication manuscript and are

848
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,440
poorly supported by primary
sources.

849
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,440
So that's that's the contention
with the self statement.

850
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:26,240
And as far as the historical
method that we talked about,

851
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,640
you'd have to take that
statement and and it's tenuous.

852
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:35,840
Then we talked about Zary
Himmler.

853
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,840
On July 2nd, 1839, Joseph Smith
and other church leaders visited

854
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,160
the site of Zahra Hemel across
the river from Nauvoo in

855
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:45,640
question.
The entry published in the

856
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,080
History of the Church reads as
follows.

857
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,880
Spent the forenoon of this day
on the Iowa side of the river.

858
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,200
Went in company with Elder
Sydney Reagan.

859
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,120
Hire Smith and Bishops Whitney
and Knight and others to visit a

860
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,200
purchase lately made by Bishop
Knight as a location for a town

861
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,960
and advised that a town be built
there and called Zahra Hemla,

862
00:51:06,240 --> 00:51:10,880
referring to the settlement as
Zarahemla before the March 1840

863
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,280
revel.
March 1841 revelation is

864
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,600
consistent with what other
historical evidence showing the

865
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:18,360
Saints already referred to the
site by that name.

866
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,320
So because it's mentioned that,
what do we hear from Kimura

867
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:25,520
that's in it was I think it's
section 125.

868
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,800
I forget right now.
The fact that they were already

869
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,680
calling it Zarahemla long before
the section of the Doctrine

870
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:38,800
Covenants indicates that it was
a tradition that they had begun

871
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:44,000
at least as early as 1839.
Going on, these early references

872
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,840
of the name of the Iowa
settlement previous to March

873
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,400
1841, indicate that the Saints
referred to it as Zarahemla long

874
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:50,760
before the revelation in
question.

875
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:53,920
There is no indication in these
early sources that this

876
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,400
designation was based upon
revelation, or even that it was

877
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,360
Joseph Smith's idea.
The purpose of the revelation

878
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,560
was most likely to counsel the
Saints to gather at the

879
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,800
appointed place and not, as the
authors of the Heartland theory

880
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,280
suggest, to reveal the ancient
location of a Book of Mormon

881
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,760
city.
Again, what did he not say or

882
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:17,720
what did anybody not say?
This is the ancient city of the

883
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:21,440
Saints did what they would often
do, name places they lived after

884
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,520
places mentioned in the Bible
and the Book of Mormon.

885
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,840
There's no compelling reason to
associate the Iowa settlement

886
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:30,360
with ancient Sarah Hamlin.
And, and look, to, to be fair,

887
00:52:30,720 --> 00:52:33,640
and this is one point I'm, I'm
willing to see concede, cause

888
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:38,720
I've heard this argument before.
I don't think just 'cause they

889
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:41,960
named the place Zarahemla means
that that's where it's at,

890
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:43,080
right?
Yeah.

891
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:48,760
Look, there's a far West Utah,
there's a bountiful UT, right?

892
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,400
And in no ways do I think that
that the Book of Mormon

893
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:56,840
narrative takes place in Utah,
right?

894
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,080
I just, I, I don't, I don't see
that.

895
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:00,960
And the.
Canal.

896
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,560
The canal in my hometown is
called the Sidon Canal.

897
00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:07,200
Right, right.
And so there's, there's no way

898
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:11,920
that I am, I'm willing to to go
out and call that definitive by

899
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:16,320
any stretch of the imagination.
Then we talked about this issue.

900
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:24,520
By the way, I think it's
interesting what the other side

901
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:29,400
calls their geography theory.
What do they call it?

902
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,400
Heartland.
Why do they call it that?

903
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:35,600
Because they think it takes
place in the heartland of

904
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:40,800
America.
To me, there's inherent bias in

905
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,320
the name.
It's not the heart, it's not the

906
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,920
heartland to the Canadians and
Mexicans or Peruvians.

907
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,280
It's the heartland to the people
who are from there and who want

908
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:54,320
it to be there, so they call it
the heartland.

909
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,440
I mean, if the Mesa Americanists
were smart, they'd call it the

910
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,040
Mesa American Holy Land or
something.

911
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,760
To be fair though, Rod Rod
didn't live back there, and I

912
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,600
think he's the one that coined
the phrase, right?

913
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,000
Well, it's, it's still America,
you know.

914
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:12,880
OK, All right, so, so all right,
I I see where you're going

915
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:14,960
there.
You you feel like that that may

916
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:19,040
be that name adds some sort of
of.

917
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:21,400
It it fashion list.
Yeah.

918
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,160
She betrays a certain bias Yeah.
They want it to be there anyway.

919
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:29,640
Joseph Smith quote Speaking of
the land of Zion, it consists of

920
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:33,960
all North and South America.
But that any place where the

921
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,840
Saints gather is Zion, which
every righteous man will build

922
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,080
up for a place of Sapi and his
children for his children.

923
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,960
The redemption of Zion is the
redemption of all North and

924
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,200
South America.
So the idea that the Book the

925
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,160
Mormon or Joseph Smith or
anybody else only thought the

926
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:53,360
United States of America was the
promised land, I have to say

927
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,840
that an affront to every other
American.

928
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,000
Latter Day St. in the Western
Hemisphere.

929
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:02,000
The Peruvians believe Zarahemel
is in Peru.

930
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,680
Mexicans believe it in Mexico.
Right.

931
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,000
I don't know what the Canadian
Saints believe.

932
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:13,920
They're waiting for the
scripture that comes forward

933
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:18,480
that talks about abundance of
syrup, Maple syrup.

934
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:19,920
Then they can narrow narrow it
down.

935
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,440
Proponents of the so-called
heartland interpretation claim

936
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,960
that Joseph Smith's usage of
such terms as this land, this

937
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,440
continent, or this country
indicated specialized usage that

938
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,680
must and can refer only to
territory within the United

939
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,000
States.
Contrary to that view,

940
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,720
historical evidence suggests
that Joseph Smith never

941
00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:43,240
considered that the question of
the Book of Mormon geography was

942
00:55:43,240 --> 00:55:46,840
settled by revelation and that
those terms as applied to the

943
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,560
Book of Mormon do not reflect A
specialized usage but refer to

944
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,240
the land, continent, and country
of America, meaning North to

945
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:55,360
South America, not only the
United States.

946
00:55:57,240 --> 00:56:00,560
The interest of Joseph Smith and
other early Latter Day Saints in

947
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:04,080
the remains of pre Columbian
culture accessible to them does

948
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:07,720
not justify the claim That he
believed or taught an exclusive

949
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:13,560
United States geography.
Is my contention all right?

950
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:16,000
So.
I do.

951
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,880
I do want to go ahead.
Let let me push back here a

952
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:21,400
little bit because I'd like to
get your interpretation then of

953
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,600
the letter Joseph Rowe, right?
Because that is a pretty

954
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,760
hardcore piece of evidence
because it's in his hand, right?

955
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,240
There's no doubt.
Which letter are you talking

956
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:32,160
about?
The one that he writes to Emma

957
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,480
about coming over the planes of
the knee fights.

958
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,680
Yeah, yeah.
So in in your mind, what, what's

959
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,720
your thoughts there when, when
he calls that area the Plains

960
00:56:40,720 --> 00:56:44,680
and the Nephites, is he
referring to I, I, I would just

961
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,360
like to get your idea about what
it is you think he's saying

962
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:51,680
there exactly.
John Clark was the first to

963
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:53,720
actually publish, but he's not
the first to come up with this

964
00:56:53,720 --> 00:56:58,000
idea, right?
Everybody recognizes that the

965
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,920
Book of Mormon, even though it
dealt with just the local,

966
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,560
essentially their local culture
and population.

967
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,160
OK, I.
Mean they had the Lance out

968
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:10,960
there, the land northward.
Beyond that, we don't know

969
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:12,800
anything.
Right.

970
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,720
But it does explicitly state
that there were at least three

971
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:22,400
groups that left that area that
they were concerned with and all

972
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,120
three of them went north and
never came back.

973
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,000
And as I said before, there were
already there were people

974
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:31,600
everywhere.
So assume for the sake of

975
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,760
discussion, Sarah Hamelow was in
Meso America.

976
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:36,160
We'll talk more about that,
Sure.

977
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:40,840
And that there were people who
were related to the Nephites or

978
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,280
the Lamanites who went north and
settled up north.

979
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,040
There's no reason why that
couldn't be the plains of the

980
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:48,000
Nephites.
OK.

981
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:49,320
I see what you're saying.
OK.

982
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,160
Anyway, that's referred to as
the hinterland hypothesis.

983
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,920
OK, that even though the, the
Book of Mormon, what we're, what

984
00:57:57,080 --> 00:58:01,040
we're talking about is not where
other Nephites went, what we're

985
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:02,760
talking about tonight is where
Zarahemla was.

986
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,040
I mean, that's what we're really
interested in, right?

987
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:07,360
Where all that stuff happened in
the narrow neck of land and

988
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:16,000
stuff, OK. mtDNA mutations are
measured by molecular clocks

989
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,520
used to calculate age estimates
of the different branches of the

990
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,000
DNA tree.
Currently, there are five

991
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,080
different molecular clocks that
have been proposed using all or

992
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:26,920
a considerable section of the
DNA genome.

993
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:32,520
All 5 clocks provide close
estimates for haplogroup X2A,

994
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:35,800
indicating that it predates the
Lee Heights arrival to the

995
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,560
Americas by several thousands of
years.

996
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,880
In reality, based on current DNA
science and the lack of

997
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:46,560
additional evidence, X2A cannot
be linked to the Lee Heights.

998
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:49,520
It's a completely different
chronological era.

999
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:57,440
I have to laugh when I see this
picture.

1000
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,040
I'm looking at some of the
heartlander relics.

1001
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,480
Have you ever googled heartland
relics?

1002
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:06,480
I have not in.
Preparation.

1003
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,520
I was Googling, you know, just
to get some photos and stuff.

1004
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:13,840
I'm not kidding you.
The top 20 hits on Google were

1005
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:18,320
sites selling this stuff.
Replicas math sort of thing.

1006
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,680
It's.
Unfortunate, yeah, that it's,

1007
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:28,200
it's become commercialized.
Right.

1008
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:31,240
And the one right in the middle,
the round one.

1009
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:36,760
The Decalogue Stone, Yeah.
All right, I have a wonderful

1010
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:41,560
client who should go nameless.
I was working at her house one

1011
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:49,640
day and she comes out clutching
this Decalogue stone replica and

1012
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:51,600
was telling me all about it, how
excited she was.

1013
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:53,440
And she bought it and she knew
it was just a replica.

1014
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:55,960
She was holding like a holy
rosary.

1015
00:59:57,520 --> 00:59:59,960
It wanted to get me to hold it
and see how I felt when I was

1016
00:59:59,960 --> 01:00:03,520
holding it.
And as politely as I could, I

1017
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:06,520
said, I, I'm one of those guys
that believes that they, you

1018
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,520
know, I'm, I'm not, I don't bite
into the Heartlander theory in

1019
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:12,680
its entirety, right?
Look, she seemed and I was

1020
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:15,560
trying so hard to be nice
anyway.

1021
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:17,800
Look, here's the thing.
I'm a guy who thinks the

1022
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,320
Decalogue stone might have some
chops, right?

1023
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:27,040
However, I'm not going to clutch
a replica relic and and and

1024
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,800
treat it like it's a rosary or
something, right?

1025
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:33,960
It's a replica.
So beginning in the Prophet's

1026
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,280
lifetime, the unfortunate
creation and circulation of

1027
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:39,400
unproven artifacts, modern
forgeries, and other hoaxes

1028
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,160
began.
We know this to be true,

1029
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,000
Joseph's strength or James
strength, and some have

1030
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,400
connected a few of these
forgeries to the Book of Mormon

1031
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:50,800
or Latter Day St. history
specifically, while other

1032
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,200
falsified artifacts have been
associated with the Book of

1033
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,960
Mormon indirectly.
Is there a danger to this?

1034
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,560
Oh yeah, I mean, look, if if bad
evidence is being passed around,

1035
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:09,720
right, that needs to be gotten
out of the equation, right?

1036
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:14,880
Because we can't make any
headway with with with falsified

1037
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:16,800
information, right?
Well then and it.

1038
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:18,920
Casts a bad light on the real
evidence, the good.

1039
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,400
Evidence, yes, so we're.
We're going to talk about each

1040
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,640
of these renowned relatives.
Kinderhook plates.

1041
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:25,320
Did you buy into them
personally?

1042
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:29,680
You know, I'll be honest, I
haven't done enough research on

1043
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,880
them myself to form.
These are one of the first ones

1044
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:34,840
they presented to him, trying to
test if he could translate or

1045
01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:35,920
not.
Right.

1046
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:37,600
And people say, oh, he was
hoodooing.

1047
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:40,360
Did he ever publish anything?
Did we worship the Kinderhook

1048
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:42,520
plates?
No, no he didn't.

1049
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,640
Allegedly had been excavated in
the town of Kinderhook.

1050
01:01:46,760 --> 01:01:49,080
Don't you want to live there?
Illinois?

1051
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:50,920
And were brought to the prophet
with hopes he could translate

1052
01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:56,040
the engravings. 6 small brass or
bell shaped brass plates.

1053
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:59,440
As you can see, that's the sign.
For many years Latter Day Saints

1054
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:00,960
thought the plates were
authentic, even though one of

1055
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,680
the men involved in their
discovery admitted they were

1056
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:05,880
fraudulent.
Many years later, scientific

1057
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,080
study would demonstrate that the
plates were in fact modern

1058
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:10,480
forgeries.
This has been the position of

1059
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:14,200
the LDS church ever since the
Michigan relics.

1060
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:17,200
I didn't know how many there
were.

1061
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:19,040
I.
Was trying to find some good

1062
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:19,920
pictures.
There were pictures of

1063
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:21,080
everything.
There were hundreds of them.

1064
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:24,720
Another set of forgeries connect
with the latter St. histories,

1065
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:28,160
the so-called Michigan relics.
Beginning in 1890, hundreds of

1066
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:30,720
objects were made to appear as
the remnants of a lost

1067
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,840
civilization.
The artifacts were produced,

1068
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,200
buried, discovered and marketed
by James O Scottford and Daniel

1069
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:39,560
E Super.
For three decades, these

1070
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:43,000
artifacts were secretly planted
in earthen miles, publicly

1071
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,240
removed and lauded as wonderful
discoveries.

1072
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:47,760
They they were really good at
finding those things.

1073
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:50,240
What weren't they?
Many of these artifacts included

1074
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,360
clear depictions of biblical
events such as creation, the

1075
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:55,480
flood, Abraham's near sacrifice
of Isaac in the life of Christ.

1076
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:58,720
Because the Michigan relics
allegedly evidenced in Near

1077
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,200
Eastern presidents and ancient
presence in ancient America,

1078
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:03,920
they have drawn interest from
the Church of Jesus Christ of

1079
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,640
Latter Day Saints as well as the
Reorganized Church of Jesus

1080
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:09,600
Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Elder Tammich became Talmich

1081
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,720
became interested.
Talmage is a scientist in the

1082
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:14,360
artifacts.
At one point it was tasked by

1083
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,320
the 1st President presidency to
investigate their authenticity.

1084
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,200
Ultimately, as of most
professionals at the time,

1085
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:22,960
Talmage concluded, after
considerable scientific

1086
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,640
experiment and some detective
work, that the artifacts were

1087
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:28,120
fraudulent.
This conclusion continues to be

1088
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,560
the consensus among scholars
from both inside and outside the

1089
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:34,080
church.
That's the story of the Michigan

1090
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,440
Relics.
You know, and it's one of those

1091
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,240
things, Ken, where I'm like,
there's enough out there that is

1092
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:42,760
very compelling.
You know, there's no need to

1093
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:47,440
falsify evidence, right, No
matter which side you fall on.

1094
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,800
And look, I don't care what side
people fall on.

1095
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:53,080
I really don't.
It's not something I feel the to

1096
01:03:54,040 --> 01:03:55,520
be like, well, we can't hang
with them.

1097
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,800
They're, you know, people,
right?

1098
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,760
It's not, it's not in my
wheelhouse, to be quite frank,

1099
01:04:00,760 --> 01:04:02,880
it shouldn't be in any.
That should not be something you

1100
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:07,200
divide over, right?
And I don't care where they come

1101
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,960
to you, as long as they come to
you honestly with good

1102
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:13,680
information.
Yeah, the Newark Holy Stones.

1103
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:16,040
The artifacts known today as the
Newark Holy Stones, were

1104
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:20,440
allegedly discovered in 1860 by
a man named David Weyrich at a

1105
01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:23,240
site near Newark, OH.
The artifacts consist of

1106
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:27,280
keystone, or a stone with Hebrew
descriptions on its four sides.

1107
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:29,480
The Decalogue Stone, which
includes a supposed image of

1108
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,360
Moses and Hebrew texts of the 10
commandments running on its

1109
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:35,760
sides, nested in a sandstone box
and a stone bowl.

1110
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:38,400
Almost immediately after their
discovered, the artifacts were

1111
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,120
met with skepticism.
Errors in the Hebrew text was

1112
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:44,360
one of the major red flags
raised by experts who examined

1113
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:46,560
the stones.
Despite continued attempts to

1114
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:50,080
authenticate the artifacts,
skepticism has persisted among

1115
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:52,200
mainstream archaeologists down
to the present.

1116
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:02,800
Where did the when they were
excavating it?

1117
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,920
Oh I I skipped this Part 1 of
the guys who was assisting.

1118
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:10,480
I might have that confused when
I'm confused up another stone.

1119
01:05:10,480 --> 01:05:17,320
I think this is the Decalogue
Stone in Los Lunas, NM, a large

1120
01:05:17,320 --> 01:05:19,800
flat stone covered with an
abbreviated version of the 10

1121
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:23,720
Commandments in a variant
ancient Semitic alphabet called

1122
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:25,880
the Los Lunas Decalogue Stone or
Commandment Rock.

1123
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:29,600
The first recorded encounter
with the stone was in 1933 by

1124
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:32,800
the archaeologist Frank Hibben.
Although a plausible but

1125
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,680
unconfirmed sighting of the
stone may have occurred earlier

1126
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:38,440
in the 1870's, the debate
surrounding the stone is whether

1127
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,400
the Semitic inscription upon
it's upon it is authentically

1128
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,120
ancient.
While the inscription is carved

1129
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:46,800
in an ancient form of Hebrew,
the identification of the Carver

1130
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,920
remains a mystery.
The archaeologist and linguist

1131
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,040
Cyrus Gordon accepted the
authenticity description and

1132
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,920
argued that it was Old
Phoenician Hebrew.

1133
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:58,800
This theory, however, has not
gained wide pred that widespread

1134
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,280
acceptance.
Most scholars, including LDS

1135
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,760
scholars regard the description
regard the inscriptions

1136
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,160
fraudulent.
As with the newer Collie stones,

1137
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:08,800
problems with the language and
preservation of the inscription

1138
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:13,240
have been raised.
This is what I was thinking of.

1139
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:18,200
The Bat Creek Stone discovered
in 1889 during the Smithsonian

1140
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:20,880
LED excavation of Native
American sites near Bat Creek in

1141
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,960
Loudon County, Tennessee.
The artifact known today is Back

1142
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,600
Creek Stone, is a relatively
flat, thin piece of Fergus

1143
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:32,160
siltstone, approximately 11
centimeters long by 5

1144
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:35,000
centimeters wide.
On the stone is an inscription

1145
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:38,360
of about 8 characters written
horizontally across the service

1146
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:40,680
surface.
In the publication of his field

1147
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:43,280
notes, the director of the
excavation, Cyrus Thomas,

1148
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:46,560
declared the inscription on the
stone to be beyond question

1149
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:49,560
letters of the modern Cherokee
alphabet.

1150
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:52,920
Excitement of the stone
increased when Cyrus Gordon

1151
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:55,160
published arguments that the
inscription on the stone was

1152
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:59,520
actually ancient Hebrew and read
for Judea or for the Judeans.

1153
01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:02,640
According to Gordon, the
inscription lends credibility to

1154
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:05,240
the idea that the ancient Jews
successfully migrated to the New

1155
01:07:05,240 --> 01:07:07,280
World.
In recent years, the

1156
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:09,680
authenticity of the inscription
has come under critical

1157
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:13,160
scrutiny.
John Emert Thomas assistant who

1158
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:16,440
was who was the one to actually
excavate the mound where the

1159
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:20,160
stone was discovered, has been
charged with forging of the

1160
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:24,160
characters on the stone by using
available 19th century sources.

1161
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,240
Gordon's contention that the
characters are authentic ancient

1162
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,000
Hebrew has likewise been
challenged.

1163
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:31,720
While some have continued to
defend the authenticity of the

1164
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:34,640
inscription, the Smithsonian
itself, Smithsonian itself now

1165
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:40,960
regards it as fraudulent.
OK, let's so I want to, I want

1166
01:07:40,960 --> 01:07:43,600
to stop right there at that,
that spot there, because

1167
01:07:43,600 --> 01:07:46,080
there's, there's something I'm
seeing here.

1168
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:48,880
And, and this is part of my
pushback with this when when I

1169
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:57,040
do talk about this is, and I
want to be careful here because

1170
01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:59,960
I don't want to throw all of
archaeology under the bus.

1171
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:08,520
There is a school of there's
kind of stuff that goes on in

1172
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:11,000
archaeology that to me appears
funny.

1173
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:16,600
OK, One is archaeology's been
around for Pow Wong Ken as a

1174
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:19,840
discipline.
About 125 years.

1175
01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:21,000
OK.
Yeah.

1176
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:26,040
So you're going to tell me that
in 125 years we can, we can be

1177
01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:28,359
like, oh, we got this whole
history of humanity thing

1178
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:33,960
figured out, right?
And there has been resistance,

1179
01:08:34,359 --> 01:08:38,960
more so in archaeology, I think,
than in other disciplines, where

1180
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:43,200
when something comes up to upset
certain models, those

1181
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:48,399
archaeologists circle the wagons
and really do put those guys on

1182
01:08:48,399 --> 01:08:51,520
an island, even when they come
with credentials, right?

1183
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,399
And that's problematic because
when things like this come up, I

1184
01:08:56,399 --> 01:09:01,640
don't know who to trust, right?
Because we see this in Clovis

1185
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,920
first, right?
For years the idea was, Nope,

1186
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,800
the first people here were the
people who were using Clovis

1187
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,920
points.
Well, the, the, the thing about

1188
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:13,479
that is, is that we now know
that that's not the case.

1189
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:16,960
And, and even most
archaeologists have had to, to,

1190
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:18,399
to wrestle with that.
And that's good.

1191
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:20,560
When new evidence comes up, you
should be able to change.

1192
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:24,960
The unfortunate thing I see,
however, is that rather than

1193
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,560
consider the evidence, and even
if you don't believe it, say,

1194
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,279
let's put it on a shelf and
revisit this if more evidence

1195
01:09:30,279 --> 01:09:33,960
comes to light, they tend to
ridicule those who try to upset

1196
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:37,960
that narrative, right?
And so when, when we say things

1197
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:41,720
like, OK, so we have these
archaeologists who've said this

1198
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:44,240
and then later they've
discredited it.

1199
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:46,880
We don't know where to go with
that, right?

1200
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:50,600
And, and so how do you now you,
and, and this is an honest

1201
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,080
question for you, 'cause you're
a really bright guy, smarter

1202
01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:55,520
than me.
When you encounter stuff like

1203
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:58,720
that, how do you know how much
weight to put on those modern

1204
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:03,760
archaeologists?
Well, the one thing I was going

1205
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,840
to point out, we've gone through
all of the primary relics.

1206
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:09,160
There's not a one of them.
There's not a one of them that's

1207
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:10,680
a home run.
No.

1208
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:13,000
I mean, they're all found under
the same suspicious

1209
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:15,440
circumstances.
And part of it too, is finding

1210
01:10:15,440 --> 01:10:18,640
it in situ.
Meaning, is this artifact found

1211
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:23,360
in the ancient setting, you
know, as as part of the ancient

1212
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:26,080
settlement in the home or around
the fire?

1213
01:10:26,080 --> 01:10:29,160
Whatever it was, they always
seem to be found, oddly enough,

1214
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:32,400
all by themselves somewhere that
nobody can say exactly.

1215
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:35,960
And they can't prove that it was
related to anything in the

1216
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:39,040
surrounding archaeological area.
That's one thing these all of

1217
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:41,320
these relics we've talked about
tend to have in common.

1218
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,120
And I agree with you, the
established, the established

1219
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:52,960
authorities can sometimes be
reluctant to accept new ideas,

1220
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:54,680
especially if they're outside
the box.

1221
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:57,080
And you and I've had that
discussion before.

1222
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:03,880
The the other thing that I have
found is when the archaeological

1223
01:11:03,880 --> 01:11:06,960
evidence or artifacts are so
abundant that they're

1224
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:10,680
overwhelmingly undeniably so
that's another matter.

1225
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:15,080
But what we see here are quite a
varied bunch of collections,

1226
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:21,560
which in terms of the
artisanship, I mean, you know,

1227
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,000
any Tom, Dick or Harry could
have scratched that on there.

1228
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:29,320
So to me, they they just seem
odd.

1229
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:31,360
OK.
And what's really odd is they

1230
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:33,280
all seem odd.
OK.

1231
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:38,240
And that no one has really known
of any real authority.

1232
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:41,080
And we'll talk about some of
that in a minute too.

1233
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:47,440
I, I, I don't trust somebody.
The appeal to authority fallacy

1234
01:11:47,440 --> 01:11:49,920
is not something I am into.
No and so.

1235
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:52,560
And so and so is an expert, so
he must know better than you

1236
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:52,920
well.
Yeah.

1237
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:54,880
And and I'm not saying you were
doing that.

1238
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,760
I don't want you to think I.
Was oh, no, no, I don't.

1239
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:57,560
I don't.
OK.

1240
01:11:57,600 --> 01:11:59,000
No, thank you.
I don't believe that at all.

1241
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:02,120
Well, we'll talk some more about
that.

1242
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:10,800
The other issue is in
identifying Book of Mormon

1243
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:14,360
lands, or, you know, where
Zarahamela was and that sort of

1244
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:16,520
thing.
We need to find some sort of

1245
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:19,320
archaeological evidence,
evidence, anthropological

1246
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:22,280
evidence of the peoples that
really were there during that

1247
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,840
time period.
Yeah, the heartland model relies

1248
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:30,760
on the Hopewell and the earlier
Adina civilizations, and there

1249
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:33,840
are issues with those.
First of all, the spread of the

1250
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:39,280
Hopewell culture was from north
to South, not from South to

1251
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:42,120
north like the Book of Mormon
says that they did.

1252
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:47,880
A vital aspect of the Book of
Mormon is virtually absent in

1253
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:50,840
Meldrum's model.
The location of the Jaredites,

1254
01:12:52,440 --> 01:12:55,680
the Edina, are the culture that
preceded the Hopewell, but the

1255
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:58,880
important fact is that they
preceded them in the same area.

1256
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:01,600
Remember the Book of Mormon?
They actually overlapped for a

1257
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:02,640
bit.
Right.

1258
01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:05,120
Right.
In the land northward and the

1259
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,440
land desolation where the
Jaredites were, there was some

1260
01:13:07,440 --> 01:13:09,600
overlap for almost 200 years,
right?

1261
01:13:12,440 --> 01:13:15,440
The Book of Mormon requires that
the Jaredites not be in the same

1262
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:18,480
area, but rather in the lands
north of the Nephites and the

1263
01:13:18,480 --> 01:13:21,680
Lamanites and the Adena.
That's not the case.

1264
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:27,360
The limited North American model
Jaredite problem is most obvious

1265
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:30,640
when the archaeology around the
hill Kimura is investigated.

1266
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:34,480
Since Hill Rama of the Jaredites
is the Kimura of the Nephites,

1267
01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:37,600
then we should find
archaeological Jaredites in that

1268
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,560
region.
Archaeologist John Clark notes a

1269
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:43,040
dilemma for those seeking
remnants of Book of Mormon

1270
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:46,040
peoples are on Kimura if the New
York hill from which shows up

1271
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:48,200
for two of the plates is equated
with the Book of Mormon last

1272
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:51,560
battleside of Kimura Rama.
The archaeological record of the

1273
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:53,280
New York area seems quite
misleading.

1274
01:13:53,280 --> 01:13:57,080
When 1 looks at the sites that
have been radiocarbon dated,

1275
01:13:57,480 --> 01:14:02,320
there is a huge gap in time
where in there is practically no

1276
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:06,520
data, surprisingly almost
nothing as dated within the time

1277
01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:10,200
period 500 BC to 8400, the
period of the Nephites.

1278
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:14,600
So in upper New York, around
Palmyra, that area, there's

1279
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:18,320
nothing happening there
according to archaeology

1280
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:20,240
currently the radiocarbon dated
stuff.

1281
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:25,360
So those are issues specifically
Speaking of the New York area,

1282
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:28,640
Clark goes on.
As to cultural practices, the

1283
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:31,800
Book of Mormon describes for all
its peoples, even the Lamanites,

1284
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:36,960
A sedentary lifestyle based on
serial agriculture with cities

1285
01:14:36,960 --> 01:14:40,080
and substantial buildings.
Thus, we should be looking for

1286
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:43,360
city dwellers, permanent
populations, kings, farmers, and

1287
01:14:43,360 --> 01:14:46,680
grains like in the bookmark.
These should start in the third

1288
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:51,320
Millennium before Christ and
persist at least until the 4th

1289
01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:55,640
century after his death.
There should be some climax and

1290
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:59,400
nadir moments in developments,
and these should occur in

1291
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:01,120
specific places on the
landscape.

1292
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:05,800
New York lacked cities and
cereal agriculture until after

1293
01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:09,280
81,000 and is thus not the
place.

1294
01:15:09,720 --> 01:15:12,440
We are not missing evidence of
Great Lakes people that can find

1295
01:15:12,440 --> 01:15:15,400
it over there, their settlement
patterns or subsistence

1296
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:17,560
practices for the time periods
under consideration.

1297
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:21,200
These are reasonably well known
for each period from a variety

1298
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:23,200
of evidence.
They simply do not fit the

1299
01:15:23,200 --> 01:15:26,040
specifications.
The precise region in which we

1300
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:28,600
should find evidence of
Jaredites of large cities, which

1301
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:32,000
can be supported only by
extensive agriculture, shows no

1302
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:36,320
evidence of any cities, and no
evidence of a green crop capable

1303
01:15:36,320 --> 01:15:39,640
of sustaining the Book of Mormon
populations at the limited North

1304
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:45,240
American candidate site.
By the way, John Clark,

1305
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:52,200
anthropologist, does not work at
BYU, in case anybody has.

1306
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:59,600
BYU issues.
So as as far as that goes, we do

1307
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:03,320
know that often times, and we
know this even about Native

1308
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:06,400
Americans.
We certainly know it about the

1309
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:09,440
Egyptians, right?
We, we know that Moses was a guy

1310
01:16:09,440 --> 01:16:12,720
who actually existed, but we
don't find a lot in Egypt

1311
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:16,000
talking about Moses because they
tried to scrub it, right?

1312
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:20,680
Could we be dealing with
something similar around Kimora?

1313
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:27,280
Well, I I suppose anything is
possible, but if I'm hearing

1314
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:30,520
John Clark right, it's not that
there's no mention of the

1315
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:32,920
Jaredites and Ephites, it's that
there's nothing at all.

1316
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:36,760
But don't you find that little
odd in that one section?

1317
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:40,560
I mean, it's not like it's an an
an unfertile plane, right?

1318
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:43,840
Well, who would?
Who would go to the trouble of

1319
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:48,000
scrubbing square miles, You
know, hundreds of square miles

1320
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:49,440
of stuff?
I mean, who would do that and

1321
01:16:49,440 --> 01:16:50,720
why?
You know I would.

1322
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:52,800
Think.
I would think if, if you know,

1323
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:56,480
if we just take a great battle,
for example, I would imagine

1324
01:16:56,480 --> 01:16:58,320
people would be picking stuff
up, right?

1325
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:02,800
I mean, look, metalworks weren't
exactly plentiful up in North

1326
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:06,080
America, right During that time.
As far as we know, it was the

1327
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:07,720
Nephites and the Lamanites who
had them.

1328
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:10,280
I would assume they would have
picked up a lot of that stuff to

1329
01:17:10,280 --> 01:17:12,360
use it later.
I I suppose that's a

1330
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:15,360
possibility, Sure.
Just just a thought, just

1331
01:17:15,360 --> 01:17:18,760
throwing it out there, right?
I, I, I appreciate that.

1332
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:24,040
Now we're done with that part of
the presentation, unless there

1333
01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:25,200
are things you want to discuss.
Nope.

1334
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:28,720
And let me, let me just say the,
that as I was putting all this

1335
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:32,040
together and thinking about that
and the Heartland perspective

1336
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:39,920
from there, a prophetic evidence
to the relic evidence to leaning

1337
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:43,160
on the Adina and the Hopewell,
there isn't a single one of

1338
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:46,240
those evidences in my view that
is rock solid.

1339
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:48,520
They're all tenuous.
Sure, all of it.

1340
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:51,720
And that's not a good place to
start anyway.

1341
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,720
Look going on.
With I want I want to be clear

1342
01:17:54,720 --> 01:17:56,720
up front.
I'm not sure there is a smoking

1343
01:17:56,720 --> 01:17:59,080
gun, right?
I hope someday there is, whether

1344
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:01,800
that's North or South America,
I'll hop on that wagon, right?

1345
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,920
You show me something that says,
you know, something like, Hey,

1346
01:18:05,440 --> 01:18:10,200
the savior was here at these
dates at this time and this is

1347
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:12,480
the temple bountiful.
I'm going to be like, cool, I'm

1348
01:18:12,480 --> 01:18:14,960
on board, right?
I don't care about in Central

1349
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:16,920
America.
Well, you're going to get that

1350
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:20,360
tonight.
That's a by the way.

1351
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:23,280
So the first, the first part of
this is necessary as I thought

1352
01:18:23,280 --> 01:18:25,040
it was.
I don't like doing that.

1353
01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:26,360
I know you don't.
I don't.

1354
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:28,320
Like being the naysayer, I know
you don't.

1355
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:30,040
So this is where it gets fun for
me.

1356
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:33,240
OK, the geographic evidence,
which is you know, which is

1357
01:18:33,240 --> 01:18:34,760
where the Mesoamerica is really
shine.

1358
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:41,800
But, and I have to acknowledge
this man, the Mesoamerican

1359
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:47,480
theory on Book of Mormon lands
is based really entirely on this

1360
01:18:47,480 --> 01:18:51,040
man's life and his work.
John Sorenson.

1361
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:54,920
Now, if I'm not mistaken, as
Nibley was to Egypt, this guy is

1362
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:59,160
to Central America, correct?
That that's it is exactly right.

1363
01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:04,920
OK, exactly right.
He lived almost to be 100.

1364
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:09,240
It was close 97.
An American anthropologist, a

1365
01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:13,720
scholar, and an author, he first
performed archaeological work in

1366
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:16,560
Meso America while pursuing a
master's degree at BYU.

1367
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:20,720
From January to June 53, he was
involved in the New World

1368
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,000
Archaeological Foundation's
initial field work in the state

1369
01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:28,080
of Tabasco and Mexico.
So he's been, I mean, that's

1370
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,080
half a century.
The law at work.

1371
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:33,720
Sorenson held APHD from the
University of California.

1372
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:36,880
So he wasn't an inbred, you
know, BYU person.

1373
01:19:37,640 --> 01:19:40,280
He began teaching.
He began teaching at BYU.

1374
01:19:40,280 --> 01:19:42,840
I mean, he and Nibley have been
accused of not being real

1375
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:45,760
scholars and those people are
ignorant of their publications.

1376
01:19:46,040 --> 01:19:47,640
Sure, I would have.
Outside the.

1377
01:19:47,800 --> 01:19:49,200
Church, right?
Yeah, I would.

1378
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:53,720
Look, whether you agree with him
or not, Sorenson finds a lot of

1379
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:56,480
things that are compelling,
right that you have to account

1380
01:19:56,480 --> 01:19:58,160
for.
Yeah, too much.

1381
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:00,960
Too much So he held.
So let's see.

1382
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,320
He later established the
university's anthropology

1383
01:20:04,320 --> 01:20:08,040
department that BYU.
He also served as head of Social

1384
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:10,200
Sciences for General Research
Corporation based in Santa

1385
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:12,960
Barbara, CA and was the founder
of Bonneville Research

1386
01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:15,240
Corporation.
For a time he served as the

1387
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:17,240
editor of the Journal of Book
Mormon Studies.

1388
01:20:18,640 --> 01:20:21,720
He authored.
I read that top line for me.

1389
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:26,280
He authored or co-authored some.
200 books and articles,

1390
01:20:26,280 --> 01:20:29,880
including Mormon's Codex, an
ancient American book.

1391
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:39,560
Stop right there.
This is Mormon's codex.

1392
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:43,760
This was his last publication.
Nice. 2013.

1393
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:48,080
Nice.
This is the culmination of his

1394
01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:50,240
life.
And this is, this is so dense

1395
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:54,000
you just can't believe it.
Anyway, let's see an ancient

1396
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:56,440
American setting for the Book of
Mormon, 1985.

1397
01:20:56,440 --> 01:21:01,520
And that was the first time his
published theory of Mesoamerican

1398
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:04,520
limited geography was put forth
in that book, published in a

1399
01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:06,080
book form.
He'd been working on it prior to

1400
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:08,760
that.
Transoceanic culture contacts

1401
01:21:08,760 --> 01:21:11,160
when the Old World and New
worlds and peak Columbia times

1402
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:14,120
Comprehensive annotated
bibliography Images of ancient

1403
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:17,600
America Visualizing Book of
Mormon life, Mormon's map, the

1404
01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:20,240
World Trade and biological
exchanges before 1492.

1405
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:23,760
While being a proponent of the
history of the Book of Mormon,

1406
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:28,480
Sorensen also attacked the poor
scholarship that some have used

1407
01:21:28,480 --> 01:21:32,600
in defending the Book of Mormon.
Apparently he was brutal, not

1408
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:35,760
mean, just very exacting.
I knew somebody who used to go

1409
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:38,760
home teaching to his house.
He was like the Deacon of the

1410
01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:42,440
priest, and he knew that if he
wasn't prepared, Sorensen was

1411
01:21:42,440 --> 01:21:43,840
going to ask him about it.
He.

1412
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:48,320
Was also the father of eight
children, all boys, had one

1413
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:51,640
adopted daughter, 23
grandchildren, 10 great

1414
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:53,440
grandchildren and served as
Bishop.

1415
01:21:55,320 --> 01:21:59,840
I love this last statement here.
It'll remind you of Nibley, the

1416
01:21:59,840 --> 01:22:02,680
leading minist of his
generation, Michael Coe.

1417
01:22:02,840 --> 01:22:07,800
He wrote the Bible on the Maya,
refused to engage John Sorensen

1418
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:09,760
at conferences because he was
too formidable.

1419
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:14,960
Coe has heaped praise on
Sorensen in, of all places, a

1420
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:18,360
Mormon Stories interview where
he says that Sorensen is a

1421
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:21,960
friend and declares him the
leading researcher on paradigm

1422
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:25,040
shifting research on pre
Columbian transoceanic contact,

1423
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:27,920
which Coe admits he finds
persuasive.

1424
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:31,240
Wow.
Coe came out and said some

1425
01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:37,360
pretty ignorant things about the
Book of Mormon and we don't have

1426
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:40,400
time to hear and now, but John
Schwarzen wrote him a public

1427
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:42,440
letter and just ripped him a new
one.

1428
01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:50,040
Just, I mean just slaughtered
him with archaeology, the

1429
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:52,480
established archaeological
evidence that had been

1430
01:22:52,480 --> 01:22:55,280
discovered.
So, you know, and I suppose this

1431
01:22:55,280 --> 01:23:01,600
is a good place to point out,
right, whether you are somebody

1432
01:23:01,600 --> 01:23:07,760
who adheres to the Heartland
model or the Mesoamerican model

1433
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:11,760
or someone who's in between,
understand you are on the

1434
01:23:11,760 --> 01:23:13,680
fringes, right?
You're not going to get a lot of

1435
01:23:13,680 --> 01:23:17,520
archaeologists willing to line
up with you and say, oh, yeah,

1436
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:21,400
the Book of Mormon.
That's, that's 100% actual,

1437
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:24,240
right?
We're, we're all on the fringes

1438
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:27,400
in this.
So let's let's keep that out,

1439
01:23:27,440 --> 01:23:30,960
you know, get that out there.
Well, it's funny to me too,

1440
01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:34,120
because at this point in time,
in and before his death,

1441
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:37,280
Sorenson was pointing this out.
When the Book of Mormon was

1442
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:40,440
published, less than 15% of its
archaeological claims could be

1443
01:23:40,440 --> 01:23:42,840
verified by secular science.
Right.

1444
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:49,080
Today it's at 97%, at 20 years
ago is at 75%.

1445
01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:53,080
And when Sorenson was talking
about it, it was up to like 90%.

1446
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:57,840
And so they kept saying, but it
keeps trending more and more to

1447
01:23:57,920 --> 01:24:00,040
to work to 100%, which tells you
what about the book.

1448
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:03,560
It's true record.
Yeah, and we'll see some more of

1449
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:09,040
that as we go on.
Practically, since the Book of

1450
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:10,680
Mormon was published, It's
geography.

1451
01:24:10,680 --> 01:24:16,120
Well, well, last thing I want to
say about John Sorenson, every

1452
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:21,000
single Mesoamerican believer
today, regardless of the

1453
01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:25,000
particular model.
Oh, their beginnings to John

1454
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:26,200
Sorenson.
Right.

1455
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:28,680
The originator of the whole
thing and to this day is

1456
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:31,680
unsurpassed in terms of the
level of detail.

1457
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:36,440
I learned something today about
him that I could not believe.

1458
01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:38,800
What's that?
I'll probably be.

1459
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:41,880
Giving it away too soon, but
what he believes to be the

1460
01:24:41,880 --> 01:24:46,560
waters of Mormon.
Right during the time of Christ,

1461
01:24:47,160 --> 01:24:49,840
the city that was on the shores
of the waters of Mormon was

1462
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:53,920
swallowed up by the water right
Jerusalem.

1463
01:24:55,960 --> 01:25:00,360
He said in 19 around 1980 that
he believed that they would

1464
01:25:00,360 --> 01:25:04,560
discover a submerged city in
this lake on this on the

1465
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:07,440
southern shores of of this lake,
which I'll talk about show you

1466
01:25:07,440 --> 01:25:13,920
pictures of later, 10 years
later in 1990, they found one he

1467
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:16,000
predicted 10 years ahead of
time.

1468
01:25:16,000 --> 01:25:18,920
Wow, that's good baby.
Yeah.

1469
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:22,000
Practically, since the Book of
Mormon was published, its

1470
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:24,560
geography has been the subject
for discussion and debate.

1471
01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:26,960
John L Sorenson, one of the
foremost students on the

1472
01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:32,160
subject, identified over 600
passages relevant to geography.

1473
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:36,360
Cross referencing Sorenson's
work with that of John Clark's,

1474
01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:39,280
Randall Spackman determined that
there are upwards of 1000

1475
01:25:39,280 --> 01:25:42,200
passages of potential geographic
significance.

1476
01:25:44,480 --> 01:25:48,120
OK, now we've already said we're
not basing our testimonies on

1477
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:54,400
geography, but I have to ask the
question Clearly geography was

1478
01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:56,000
important to the Book of Mormon
writers.

1479
01:25:56,320 --> 01:26:01,280
Right.
You know it to great lengths to

1480
01:26:01,280 --> 01:26:05,480
point out their geographies, and
they were very meticulous about

1481
01:26:05,480 --> 01:26:08,640
it and terribly consistent.
I'll show you some pictures

1482
01:26:08,640 --> 01:26:11,560
about that.
But why?

1483
01:26:12,200 --> 01:26:16,160
Why was the geography so
important to Mormon and Maroni

1484
01:26:16,520 --> 01:26:21,160
and everybody?
Because it was real.

1485
01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:24,640
Right.
But well, let's describe what

1486
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:26,200
you're doing.
Right.

1487
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:31,960
Yeah, No, it's a good point.
All right, let's dispense with

1488
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:34,080
the hemispheric model.
We're going to talk about why

1489
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:38,320
both the Heartlanders and the
Mesa Americanists settled into

1490
01:26:38,320 --> 01:26:41,040
what's called the limited
geography model.

1491
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:45,960
OK, the hemispheric model, if
you go from Alaska to Chile is

1492
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:49,880
8000 miles.
New York to Peru is almost 3500

1493
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:52,360
miles.
As we'll discover in these

1494
01:26:52,360 --> 01:26:57,280
accounts, there were armies
marching from city to city in

1495
01:26:57,280 --> 01:27:01,840
not years, times, but in weeks
and days, right, Right.

1496
01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:06,320
And most especially at the Lim
High party who had gone S to

1497
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:08,760
inherit their land, the lands of
the first inheritance.

1498
01:27:08,760 --> 01:27:12,560
And then they tried to go back
to Zarahemala, but got lost,

1499
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:16,920
went past Zarahemala, went clear
up to the Land of Desolation,

1500
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:20,760
where they found the 24 gold
plates and all that sort of

1501
01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:23,600
stuff, and then came back and
had Mazziah translate them.

1502
01:27:24,120 --> 01:27:26,960
That didn't take them years.
That took them weeks.

1503
01:27:27,480 --> 01:27:30,800
Right.
You can't go 3500 miles in that

1504
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:32,680
short of time.
No.

1505
01:27:33,160 --> 01:27:36,320
When, with so when, And here's
one of the things I meant.

1506
01:27:36,800 --> 01:27:39,760
And no insult to the original
Saints who were reading the Book

1507
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:43,640
of Mormon for the first time.
They thought simplicity was a

1508
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:45,680
hemispheric model because they
hadn't done any critical

1509
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:50,840
thinking about the events yet.
And now that we have, it's

1510
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:53,920
abundantly clear to us that it
could not possibly have been

1511
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:58,720
hemispheric, nor could the
Isthmus of Panama have been the

1512
01:27:58,720 --> 01:28:01,000
narrow neck of land.
Look how long it is.

1513
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:03,680
Look how narrow it is.
How could you get lost going

1514
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:06,360
through that?
Right, right.

1515
01:28:06,480 --> 01:28:13,160
So there is of how Nephite lands
relate to an actual map of the

1516
01:28:13,160 --> 01:28:15,320
Western Hemisphere have varied
vastly in scale.

1517
01:28:16,240 --> 01:28:18,760
Where one person has separated a
certain city from another by

1518
01:28:18,760 --> 01:28:20,920
1000 miles, another may assign
only 10.

1519
01:28:22,080 --> 01:28:24,600
The scale of the lands obviously
make a difference on how we read

1520
01:28:24,600 --> 01:28:27,200
the Book of Mormon account.
What did Mormon believe the

1521
01:28:27,200 --> 01:28:29,200
distances were?
As he authored the history, Did

1522
01:28:29,200 --> 01:28:31,640
he make enough statements on the
subject to allow us to establish

1523
01:28:31,640 --> 01:28:34,400
an intelligent picture of how
big or how little the lands of

1524
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:38,320
Zarahim are or Nephi were?
Mormon furnished us with a

1525
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:41,240
number of key pieces of
information in which we can

1526
01:28:41,240 --> 01:28:44,240
establish distances and now
we're This is John Sorenson at

1527
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:49,320
work the journey of Alma the
first's people and it gives the

1528
01:28:49,320 --> 01:28:51,560
references.
It didn't take him years.

1529
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:55,680
Limheis explorers expedition to
the land northward movements in

1530
01:28:55,680 --> 01:28:59,160
the AMA site war Alma 2's
circuit of cities preaching

1531
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:02,200
repentance that happened pretty
fast in like a month's time.

1532
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:06,640
The wars in the borders by the
East Sea and in the southwest

1533
01:29:06,640 --> 01:29:09,800
quarter the land of Nephi as
described in the xenified

1534
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:16,040
account, and that the sons of
Messiah, Messiah 2 and the last

1535
01:29:16,040 --> 01:29:18,480
wars between the knee fights and
the lame knives gives us very

1536
01:29:18,480 --> 01:29:22,400
different time scales of how
far, how long it took them to

1537
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:26,440
get places.
The actual distance a person

1538
01:29:26,440 --> 01:29:28,760
going one day varies greatly
according to setting, individual

1539
01:29:28,760 --> 01:29:31,760
capacity, mode of travel.
Person has been known to travel

1540
01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:35,760
over 100 miles per day by foot
with some regularity.

1541
01:29:36,240 --> 01:29:38,920
And of course, if one went down
a river in a canoe, an even

1542
01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:40,080
greater distance could be
travelled.

1543
01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:42,440
Such variables prevent us from
establishing A definite length

1544
01:29:42,440 --> 01:29:46,280
for the line at the neck, but a
range of figures between 60 and

1545
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:50,600
125 miles can be argued as
reasonable for the day and a

1546
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:53,760
half's journey.
So he's trying to determine the

1547
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:57,280
width of the narrow neck between
60 and 125 miles, right?

1548
01:29:57,720 --> 01:29:59,360
He gives this very important
qualifier.

1549
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:03,960
Recall that the narrower 1, the
narrower one makes the neck, the

1550
01:30:03,960 --> 01:30:06,960
more difficult it is to explain
how Limb High's explorers failed

1551
01:30:06,960 --> 01:30:08,720
to realize that they had passed
through it.

1552
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:12,200
They didn't even know.
If they had known it was the

1553
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:14,080
narrow neck of land, they would
have known to turn around.

1554
01:30:14,440 --> 01:30:16,360
Right.
Right, so it had to be wide

1555
01:30:16,360 --> 01:30:17,920
enough they could still get lost
in it.

1556
01:30:20,240 --> 01:30:23,360
So, and this is a little bit
nitpicky, but this is critical

1557
01:30:23,360 --> 01:30:25,000
to understanding the limited
geography.

1558
01:30:25,960 --> 01:30:28,360
Crucial information comes from
the account of the exploring

1559
01:30:28,360 --> 01:30:32,160
party Xenified King Limhei sent
to locate Zeri Hamlin.

1560
01:30:32,240 --> 01:30:35,520
They consisted of 43 of his most
diligent men.

1561
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:37,560
So it wasn't a group of people
and flocks and stuff.

1562
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:41,480
It had been two generations
since the Fathers had come from

1563
01:30:41,480 --> 01:30:43,600
Zeri Hamlin, so they themselves
have not been there.

1564
01:30:44,200 --> 01:30:47,320
And tradition apparently did not
furnish firm information about

1565
01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:49,840
the route they should follow to
reach Sarah Hemlock.

1566
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:54,400
I heard a very interesting
hypothesis from Brad Gardner, a

1567
01:30:54,400 --> 01:30:57,520
wonderful LDS scholar, which I'm
going to present in a moment.

1568
01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:01,960
Why they got lost and
traditionally apparently did not

1569
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:05,360
furnish firm information about
the route they should follow.

1570
01:31:05,800 --> 01:31:10,200
The explorers wandered for many
days days before discovering

1571
01:31:10,200 --> 01:31:12,800
extensive ruins.
So they were in the land

1572
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:16,680
southward, went past Azeri
hamlet, went into the land

1573
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:19,920
northward, and it took them many
days.

1574
01:31:21,320 --> 01:31:24,520
That's not thousands of miles,
it's hundreds of miles at most.

1575
01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:28,280
Right.
These ruins turned out to be in

1576
01:31:28,280 --> 01:31:31,680
the land desolation of the
Jaredites, or there the party

1577
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:34,960
came upon corroded artifacts and
the gold plates on which the

1578
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:38,360
last Jaredite prophet, Ether had
written his account of that

1579
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:39,840
people's history and
extermination.

1580
01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:43,040
The explorers then backtracked
to the city of Nephi, their

1581
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:47,280
homeland, bearing Ether's record
and a few Jaredite relics as

1582
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:50,320
proof of their story.
What is remarkable to us now is

1583
01:31:50,320 --> 01:31:53,240
their conclusion that the
remains they found had been left

1584
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:57,440
by the inhabitants of Zarahemla.
They thought they were in

1585
01:31:57,440 --> 01:31:59,080
Zarahemla and everybody would
have been killed.

1586
01:32:01,440 --> 01:32:04,000
OK.
Who they supposed must somehow

1587
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:06,960
have been destroyed, we now
understand The exploring party

1588
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:09,880
had traveled all the way into
the land northward to within a

1589
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:14,720
few miles of the hill Rama.
How far they how far had they

1590
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:17,440
travelled in miles?
What distance can we infer it

1591
01:32:17,440 --> 01:32:19,600
was from the city of Nephi to
the place where ether left the

1592
01:32:19,600 --> 01:32:22,040
plates?
That would give us the length of

1593
01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:26,200
the of the Nephite area, if we
can identify that.

1594
01:32:27,800 --> 01:32:29,680
Surely they would have known
from their grandfather's

1595
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:32,040
traditions approximately how far
it was to Zerahema.

1596
01:32:32,040 --> 01:32:35,040
So if we put ourselves in their
sandals, we probably would have

1597
01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:37,320
to begin to wonder, after the
estimated number of days had

1598
01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:40,760
passed, just how much farther
northward to press on.

1599
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,960
I can imagine them going on for
perhaps twice as many days as

1600
01:32:43,960 --> 01:32:46,280
the as the tradition told them
it would take to get to

1601
01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:50,320
Sahamila, but not a lot more.
It wouldn't have gone a month

1602
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:52,960
over, right?
But you know that the Nephite

1603
01:32:53,280 --> 01:32:56,920
party was separated from
Sahamila by less than 200 miles,

1604
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:00,480
so it seems improbable that
those diligent men would have

1605
01:33:00,480 --> 01:33:03,560
pressed northward much more than
double that distance without

1606
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:05,520
arguing among themselves about
turning back.

1607
01:33:05,920 --> 01:33:08,760
It looks from this incident like
the final Jedi battlefield was

1608
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:13,880
not much more than 400 airline
miles from Nephi, length of the

1609
01:33:13,880 --> 01:33:17,600
Kingdom land desolation to the
land of the 1st Inheritance. 400

1610
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:19,720
miles.
And that's how Sorenson gets at

1611
01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:21,520
that, at least from that
instance.

1612
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:28,040
With the idea that that they
could travel about 100 miles a

1613
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:30,000
day, you're talking a four days
journey.

1614
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:32,960
Yeah.
Well, and then they took more

1615
01:33:32,960 --> 01:33:35,640
days than that probably because
if it was two weeks to

1616
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:38,360
Zarahemla, they went longer than
that.

1617
01:33:38,360 --> 01:33:44,400
So and especially depending if
they're going from the land of

1618
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:46,520
the first Atlanta of Nephi to
Zarahemla, they went through

1619
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:48,960
that narrow strip of wilderness,
which apparently was quite

1620
01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:54,240
difficult and was a highland
because they would go down into

1621
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:57,520
the River Valley of Zarahemla.
So it was not an easy way to not

1622
01:33:57,800 --> 01:33:59,720
an easy path.
Gotcha.

1623
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:02,480
In Mormon's mind, the scene of
Nephite, Lamanite, and Jared

1624
01:34:02,480 --> 01:34:06,440
activities was of limited size.
Main lands, minor lands,

1625
01:34:06,440 --> 01:34:09,240
mountain ranges, plains,
valleys, rivers, and oceans are

1626
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:12,320
all referred to in a manner that
indicates that Mormon not only

1627
01:34:12,320 --> 01:34:15,680
knew about these geographical
elements from the records of his

1628
01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:19,000
ancestors, but he knew much of
the scene personally and

1629
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:22,520
intimately had been there.
The dimensions are small hardly,

1630
01:34:22,720 --> 01:34:25,760
and although hardly tiny, the
promised land in which an ephite

1631
01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:29,240
history played out was on the
order of 500 miles long and over

1632
01:34:29,240 --> 01:34:32,760
200 miles wide according to
Mormons mental map.

1633
01:34:33,160 --> 01:34:42,840
According to John Sorenson,
since over 600 passages are this

1634
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:47,040
is John Clark makes this.
This is probably the most

1635
01:34:47,040 --> 01:34:49,160
exciting thing about this study
for me.

1636
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:55,640
Finding a real world location
that matches technically counts

1637
01:34:55,640 --> 01:34:59,760
as hundreds of correspondences,
and I would argue more than

1638
01:34:59,760 --> 01:35:03,800
that.
Archaeologist John Clark says

1639
01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:05,680
this.
The Book of Mormon account is

1640
01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:07,760
remarkably consistent
throughout.

1641
01:35:07,760 --> 01:35:11,240
There's no question what they're
talking about geographically.

1642
01:35:11,280 --> 01:35:16,120
They always know over 600 times
why that Joseph Smith was a

1643
01:35:16,120 --> 01:35:18,160
genius.
We noticed that the

1644
01:35:18,160 --> 01:35:20,840
configuration of land, seas,
mountains, and other natural

1645
01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:24,440
features in Mesa, America are a
tight fit with the internal

1646
01:35:24,440 --> 01:35:27,560
requirements of the text.
It is important to stress that

1647
01:35:27,560 --> 01:35:31,720
finding any sector in the
Americas that fits the Bookmorph

1648
01:35:31,720 --> 01:35:35,840
and specifications requires
dealing with hundreds of

1649
01:35:35,840 --> 01:35:39,160
mutually dependent variables.
So rather than counting on a

1650
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:42,760
credit credible geography as one
correspondence, it actually

1651
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:45,200
counts for several 100.
The probability of guessing

1652
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:48,560
rings of details all correctly
is 0.

1653
01:35:50,840 --> 01:35:55,840
Or to put it in my words, the
Book of Mormon gives us so many

1654
01:35:55,840 --> 01:36:00,600
details between 600 and 1000,
details about the geography of

1655
01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:04,680
Book of Mormon lands.
To actually find a land that it

1656
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:09,560
matches perfectly is practically
0 unless it's real.

1657
01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:13,720
Right.
I love this.

1658
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:17,800
It's so detailed that finding a
place that matches perfectly is

1659
01:36:17,800 --> 01:36:20,280
going to be near impossible.
The lakes have to be in the

1660
01:36:20,280 --> 01:36:23,840
right place, the rivers have to
be in the right place, the seas,

1661
01:36:24,280 --> 01:36:34,880
all of that.
So John Clark gave us a drawing

1662
01:36:34,880 --> 01:36:40,720
from Scripture with the Book of
Mormon describes as the

1663
01:36:40,720 --> 01:36:42,280
geography of the lands of the
Book of Mormon.

1664
01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:47,160
Number one is the narrow neck
which separates the land

1665
01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:50,480
northward from the land
southward and was flanked by the

1666
01:36:50,480 --> 01:36:52,960
East Sea and the West Sea.
So far so good.

1667
01:36:53,400 --> 01:36:55,680
Yep.
Nephite and Lamanite lands

1668
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:59,600
occupied at least three times as
much western coastline as

1669
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:01,560
eastern coastline.
The West Coast was longer.

1670
01:37:03,080 --> 01:37:07,240
The eastern Wilderness was much
wider and lower than the Western

1671
01:37:07,240 --> 01:37:11,600
Wilderness, but not nearly as
wide as the southern Wilderness.

1672
01:37:14,680 --> 01:37:18,000
The city of Nephi, the land of
the first inheritance, was in

1673
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:21,040
the Highland Valley.
Zarahemla was in a large river

1674
01:37:21,040 --> 01:37:24,160
basin that always moved down to
Zarahemla and up to Nephi.

1675
01:37:26,120 --> 01:37:29,080
The river Sidon flowed northward
through Zarahemla.

1676
01:37:29,880 --> 01:37:33,280
The Waters of Mormon was
probably a highland lake of

1677
01:37:33,280 --> 01:37:37,800
significant size because it
swallowed up at least one city.

1678
01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:40,680
Right.
Zarahemla was surrounded by

1679
01:37:40,680 --> 01:37:45,600
Nephite fortifications.
The city of Nephi was three

1680
01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:49,160
weeks travel South from
Zarahemla and near the waters of

1681
01:37:49,160 --> 01:37:52,840
Mormon.
The city of Bountiful was north

1682
01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:55,040
of Zarahemla and near the Narrow
Neck.

1683
01:37:55,800 --> 01:38:00,200
It was about 5 days travel from
Moroni and guarded the route to

1684
01:38:00,200 --> 01:38:03,760
the land northward.
Kimura, also called Rama, was

1685
01:38:03,760 --> 01:38:07,720
near the Eastern Sea, not very
far north of Bountiful.

1686
01:38:07,720 --> 01:38:10,040
Those are pretty specific
requirements.

1687
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:15,640
Here's what gets really.
I mean, the finding the right

1688
01:38:15,640 --> 01:38:19,800
geographical references is one
thing, but we have a way to have

1689
01:38:20,320 --> 01:38:24,200
the law of witnesses apply here.
Not only does it have to fit

1690
01:38:24,200 --> 01:38:25,920
geographically, yet it's going
to have to fit

1691
01:38:25,920 --> 01:38:29,120
anthropologically,
archaeologically, and

1692
01:38:29,120 --> 01:38:32,600
geologically, which the more
Book of Mormon also gives us

1693
01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:34,560
piles of.
So not we're not talking about

1694
01:38:35,360 --> 01:38:38,840
600 or 1000 requirements, we're
talking about thousands.

1695
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:41,200
Right.
Of requirements.

1696
01:38:41,560 --> 01:38:47,680
OK.
Cultural Requirements Number One

1697
01:38:47,760 --> 01:38:52,920
Cities Major Cities 2.
Towers 3.

1698
01:38:53,160 --> 01:38:55,480
Agriculture Massive agriculture
4.

1699
01:38:55,480 --> 01:38:59,080
Metallurgy 5.
Formal political states Six.

1700
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:02,920
Organized religion 7.
Idolatry 8.

1701
01:39:03,240 --> 01:39:05,120
Crafts 9.
Trade 10.

1702
01:39:05,120 --> 01:39:07,480
Riding 11.
Weaponry 12.

1703
01:39:07,480 --> 01:39:10,360
Astronomy 13.
Calendar systems 14.

1704
01:39:10,360 --> 01:39:14,800
Cement 15.
Wheels, and I've added these

1705
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:20,520
last 216 Two distinct advanced
ancient cultures that overlap

1706
01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:22,240
chronologically and
geographically.

1707
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:28,280
The older culture has to be
right just north of the younger

1708
01:39:28,280 --> 01:39:31,960
culture, and they just barely
meet in time at its face.

1709
01:39:32,360 --> 01:39:35,840
OK.
And that and, and the older

1710
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:40,600
culture has to be just to the
north of it, 17 major geological

1711
01:39:40,600 --> 01:39:44,480
events that occur when and where
they're supposed to relative to

1712
01:39:44,480 --> 01:39:46,880
the book of Mormons, such as
earthquakes, volcanoes,

1713
01:39:47,080 --> 01:39:51,160
tsunamis, submerged cities,
cities burned with fire and the

1714
01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:53,880
city that got buried, cities
that are buried.

1715
01:39:55,440 --> 01:39:58,400
How we ever going to find a
place that that matches all of

1716
01:39:58,400 --> 01:39:59,880
that?
It's not.

1717
01:39:59,880 --> 01:40:06,360
It's not even possible, right?
You know what this is?

1718
01:40:07,440 --> 01:40:11,200
I'm just to show you.
I'm guessing it's the model that

1719
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:17,360
fits the best I.
Don't know how I stumbled across

1720
01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:20,720
this, but this for me, it
illustrates the difficulty of

1721
01:40:20,720 --> 01:40:23,240
what we're proposed of what the
Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith

1722
01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:27,720
who made it all up was, is that.
Crap from the The Lord of the

1723
01:40:27,720 --> 01:40:30,520
Rings, correct?
OK.

1724
01:40:31,280 --> 01:40:36,200
This is Tolkien's map from Lord
of the Rings, one of the

1725
01:40:36,200 --> 01:40:39,080
greatest authors whoever lived,
telling one of the most epic

1726
01:40:39,080 --> 01:40:42,440
stories ever told.
Sure, and he gave.

1727
01:40:42,560 --> 01:40:45,080
He gave us a whole world to
explore.

1728
01:40:46,680 --> 01:40:52,080
But it has problems.
Look at the red marks.

1729
01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:55,400
Strangely right angled mountain
ranges.

1730
01:40:55,440 --> 01:40:57,720
Yeah, those that's that's.
Kind of that's kind.

1731
01:40:57,720 --> 01:41:02,760
Of way, usually, yeah.
Look at the circle in the center

1732
01:41:02,760 --> 01:41:05,680
top.
The river runs parallel to the

1733
01:41:05,680 --> 01:41:07,520
mountain range.
When does that happen?

1734
01:41:08,520 --> 01:41:11,920
Not often.
All right, I and I love this.

1735
01:41:11,920 --> 01:41:14,440
You know all about this stuff.
This is this is in your

1736
01:41:14,440 --> 01:41:17,960
wheelhouse.
There's no watershed between the

1737
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:19,960
drainage bases.
No, there's there's none.

1738
01:41:19,960 --> 01:41:24,000
There is no watershed there.
Right, and then the little

1739
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:27,240
circle in the lower middle, A
river delta flows into the

1740
01:41:27,240 --> 01:41:31,280
middle of another river.
Yeah, that doesn't happen

1741
01:41:31,320 --> 01:41:35,600
either.
So even in this sense, as well

1742
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:39,840
thought out and as gifted as he
was, he's just a man, right?

1743
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:45,480
And his fictitious geography,
the geomorphology has problems.

1744
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:48,320
Sure, sure.
There's no way someone's going

1745
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:50,920
to take The Lord of the Rings to
make the geology fits or

1746
01:41:50,920 --> 01:41:53,120
geographies it.
Because it's fiction.

1747
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:56,520
Because it's fiction.
Now I'm going to show us some

1748
01:41:56,520 --> 01:42:02,880
theoretical maps of the Book of
Mormon created using those 10 +

1749
01:42:02,880 --> 01:42:08,800
17 qualifications to qualify as
Book of Mormon lands.

1750
01:42:11,280 --> 01:42:17,400
Narrow neck of land northward,
Desolation, Bountiful by the

1751
01:42:17,400 --> 01:42:19,600
narrow neck.
Is there a hammer below that

1752
01:42:21,880 --> 01:42:25,880
river Sidon flowing through that
valley, pass through Hamlet and

1753
01:42:25,880 --> 01:42:27,440
into the sea and emptying into
the sea?

1754
01:42:28,000 --> 01:42:29,840
And below that South of that is
the land of the first

1755
01:42:29,840 --> 01:42:34,880
inheritance, the land of Nephi,
and somewhere down there waters

1756
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:37,000
of Mormon in the city of
Jerusalem.

1757
01:42:38,120 --> 01:42:40,480
And then the various Book and
Mormon cities laid out relative

1758
01:42:40,480 --> 01:42:42,120
to that map and the directions
to in it.

1759
01:42:42,840 --> 01:42:44,280
So far so good.
Yep.

1760
01:42:44,880 --> 01:42:48,840
Here's another one I found very
similar.

1761
01:42:52,640 --> 01:42:58,880
Very similar.
And here and here is how we see

1762
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:03,640
the process of John Sorensen's
mind working in terms of

1763
01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:06,720
discovering where it would be in
the real world setting.

1764
01:43:07,760 --> 01:43:10,560
So on the left, we see his
theoretical map, and we'll talk

1765
01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:12,760
more about that in a minute.
Here's his theoretical map of

1766
01:43:12,760 --> 01:43:14,920
the Book of Mormon.
Looks very much like the others.

1767
01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:18,920
Narrow neck of land, land
southward, land northward, River

1768
01:43:18,920 --> 01:43:21,440
Sidon in the middle of the River
Valley and land of D5 below

1769
01:43:21,440 --> 01:43:23,400
that.
All pretty good.

1770
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:29,600
And the one single place, the
Western Hemisphere, that matches

1771
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:31,800
that almost perfectly.
Almost.

1772
01:43:31,800 --> 01:43:34,960
We'll talk about what the almost
is, is what we see on the right.

1773
01:43:37,080 --> 01:43:40,200
OK.
And that's down, down over

1774
01:43:40,200 --> 01:43:43,560
Central America, right?
Down around, this is southern

1775
01:43:43,560 --> 01:43:47,680
Mexico, this is the Gulf of
Mexico, and that's the Yucatan.

1776
01:43:48,080 --> 01:43:51,520
All right, so it's southern
Mexico and northern Guatemala.

1777
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:52,320
OK.
And.

1778
01:43:54,280 --> 01:43:56,240
We'll look at this on a on a
larger map.

1779
01:44:02,560 --> 01:44:06,640
There's his map again, labeled
when all the relevant

1780
01:44:06,640 --> 01:44:08,920
information from the texts has
taken into consideration,

1781
01:44:09,560 --> 01:44:12,720
something which no one besides
Sorenson has done so far as I

1782
01:44:12,720 --> 01:44:15,640
can tell, we are really left
with only one place to look for

1783
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:18,360
the Book of Mormon lands.
No geographical correlation

1784
01:44:18,360 --> 01:44:21,800
could qualify except
Mesoamerica, or a portion of it

1785
01:44:22,320 --> 01:44:27,560
from only there were large
cities, major populations, and

1786
01:44:27,560 --> 01:44:31,560
wars and books found anciently
around an isthmus.

1787
01:44:31,560 --> 01:44:37,200
If we boil it down to the two
basic qualifying factors, the

1788
01:44:37,200 --> 01:44:41,080
populations have to be in the
millions and they have to have

1789
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:43,200
significant evidence of being
literate.

1790
01:44:43,720 --> 01:44:46,720
They had books, they read and
they wrote.

1791
01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:51,520
And thus far, thus far in the
Western Hemisphere, there are

1792
01:44:51,520 --> 01:44:56,200
only two cultures that satisfy
those requirements, the Aztec

1793
01:44:56,600 --> 01:45:00,160
and the Maya.
The Aztec are way too late,

1794
01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:03,240
right?
They were here when Cortez was

1795
01:45:03,240 --> 01:45:06,440
here, right?
So that leaves the Maya in terms

1796
01:45:06,440 --> 01:45:09,560
of those two qualifications, so
far as I understand.

1797
01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:17,280
Let's go on now.
Here's a list of correlations.

1798
01:45:17,560 --> 01:45:27,600
Let's go back up here, show you
a different map and we'll go

1799
01:45:27,600 --> 01:45:32,240
past here.
So what we're talking about,

1800
01:45:32,240 --> 01:45:33,920
does this make sense of where we
are?

1801
01:45:34,800 --> 01:45:39,280
Southern Mexico, Yucatan, these
are called the Chiapas.

1802
01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:41,920
That's called the Grijalva
River.

1803
01:45:43,560 --> 01:45:50,040
Sorenson says that's Seiden
river and Zarahemala and others

1804
01:45:50,040 --> 01:45:51,920
are there and there are ancient
settlements there.

1805
01:45:54,680 --> 01:45:56,840
And so this is the cradle
really.

1806
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:58,760
I mean, the land of Nephi was
the first one, but this is

1807
01:45:58,760 --> 01:46:03,600
really the the homeland of the
of the Nephite culture.

1808
01:46:05,640 --> 01:46:10,600
And as they went driven
northward, bountiful desolation

1809
01:46:10,600 --> 01:46:14,240
in the final battle at Rama
Kumora, the Tuxtla Mountains.

1810
01:46:14,880 --> 01:46:19,240
Now, now, Ken, I'm I'm going to
ask the question here and and I

1811
01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:22,160
was just trying to look up a
map, but I'll I'll just ask you

1812
01:46:22,800 --> 01:46:26,800
on this screen, the north arrow
is pointing up, right.

1813
01:46:27,240 --> 01:46:28,960
Yep.
OK, so.

1814
01:46:29,960 --> 01:46:31,920
We're going to have lots, we're
going to have lots of fun

1815
01:46:31,920 --> 01:46:35,800
talking about that.
OK, 'cause this map I'm I'm even

1816
01:46:35,800 --> 01:46:40,400
for the ancients.
To me, this map does not seem to

1817
01:46:40,400 --> 01:46:44,960
hold water just based on the
fact that the land northward is

1818
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:48,160
actually to the West, the land
southward is actually to the

1819
01:46:48,160 --> 01:46:52,520
east, the East Sea is to the
north, and the West Sea is to

1820
01:46:52,520 --> 01:46:54,080
the South.
Correct, correct.

1821
01:46:54,080 --> 01:46:58,760
This is the single greatest
criticism of the Sorenson

1822
01:46:58,760 --> 01:47:02,120
models, that it doesn't follow
true north closely at all and

1823
01:47:02,120 --> 01:47:03,920
we'll talk about.
That, or even magnetic north for

1824
01:47:03,920 --> 01:47:06,120
that matter.
Here or even magnetic north.

1825
01:47:08,440 --> 01:47:15,960
So here are the commonalities
between Book of Mormon peoples

1826
01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:21,800
and the people in the Zarahemla
area, the Grijalva River Valley,

1827
01:47:21,840 --> 01:47:25,760
the Grijalva River Valley.
Number one, they both had a

1828
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:27,400
common rejection of Mayan
culture.

1829
01:47:28,600 --> 01:47:31,480
So this group that was living
along that Grijalva River in the

1830
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:35,240
archaeological sites were not
like the surrounding Maya.

1831
01:47:37,120 --> 01:47:41,120
They were different, just like
the late Nephites rejected the

1832
01:47:41,120 --> 01:47:44,080
surrounding Lamanite culture.
Isolated from outside cultures

1833
01:47:44,080 --> 01:47:48,560
and polities.
Polities similar to the land of

1834
01:47:48,560 --> 01:47:51,920
Zeriheimlich 3.
More direct access to the land

1835
01:47:51,920 --> 01:47:54,400
northward compared to the
Usamacinta river models.

1836
01:47:54,400 --> 01:47:57,680
Let me show you that one real
quick.

1837
01:48:01,200 --> 01:48:03,480
So these are the major river
systems of that region of

1838
01:48:03,480 --> 01:48:07,960
Mesoamerica.
The blue is the Grijalva and the

1839
01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:10,480
red is called the Usamacinta,
and there are some

1840
01:48:10,480 --> 01:48:13,320
Mesoamericanists who believe
that the Usamacinta is the site.

1841
01:48:14,880 --> 01:48:16,680
But.
What they're pointing out here

1842
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:20,160
is the Grijalva is actually is
the one that gives you access to

1843
01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:23,480
the land northward, not
Usamacinta.

1844
01:48:23,960 --> 01:48:28,560
And let me interject here, Grant
Gardner believes that what

1845
01:48:28,560 --> 01:48:32,880
happened to Limhai's party.
So here they were in land

1846
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:35,360
southward.
They hadn't been in two

1847
01:48:35,360 --> 01:48:37,520
generations, they said.
And they're probably told what

1848
01:48:37,520 --> 01:48:41,360
you need to do is find the
headwaters of the Riverside and

1849
01:48:41,640 --> 01:48:43,760
follow it.
You will come to Zerahemla.

1850
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:47,600
He thinks they followed the
wrong headwaters.

1851
01:48:51,120 --> 01:48:51,720
What?
What?

1852
01:48:53,240 --> 01:48:57,440
Oh, my gosh, what happened to
that?

1853
01:48:57,440 --> 01:49:00,240
Makes perfect sense to me how
that could happen.

1854
01:49:00,760 --> 01:49:03,640
They followed the wrong river,
went northward of where they

1855
01:49:03,640 --> 01:49:05,520
were supposed to go, and ended
up clear over here.

1856
01:49:06,440 --> 01:49:15,240
Very interesting to me.
All right, oops #4 close ties

1857
01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:17,760
with the Olmec culture, similar
to Melakite.

1858
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:19,640
Nephite ties to Jaredite
culture.

1859
01:49:20,440 --> 01:49:24,520
So this, this little group of
people, the subset of Mayan

1860
01:49:24,520 --> 01:49:30,920
culture, had ties with that
little overlap with the right #5

1861
01:49:31,200 --> 01:49:35,000
more realistic travel distances
between East and West seas, far

1862
01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:38,480
more prone to geological
destruction, as mentioned at the

1863
01:49:38,480 --> 01:49:40,400
time of Christ.
We'll talk a lot about that.

1864
01:49:41,080 --> 01:49:42,680
This group was called the Zoque
Mixe.

1865
01:49:43,680 --> 01:49:46,880
Their arrival in central
Chiapas, depression by that side

1866
01:49:46,880 --> 01:49:51,160
river was the same time as the
Melekites moving up to the land

1867
01:49:51,160 --> 01:49:53,240
of Zerahemela.
So they arrived there about the

1868
01:49:53,240 --> 01:49:58,600
same time #8 influx of outside
peoples around 200 BC at the

1869
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:01,760
time of Messiah's arrival into
Zerahemela increased population

1870
01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:04,280
with the depression, with some
locations doubling in site

1871
01:50:04,280 --> 01:50:07,200
numbers.
So in terms of the population

1872
01:50:07,200 --> 01:50:09,520
base, it agrees exactly with
what's going on in the Book of

1873
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:13,560
Mormon #9 they had a dualistic
society.

1874
01:50:14,080 --> 01:50:19,960
Santa Rosa is the main ancient
settlement in that Chiapas in

1875
01:50:19,960 --> 01:50:23,440
that Grijalva River Valley,
representing 2 distinct groups

1876
01:50:23,440 --> 01:50:26,200
of people living together,
representative of the Melakites

1877
01:50:26,200 --> 01:50:29,200
in the Nephites.
That says some wild

1878
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:34,240
coincidences. 1078 primary sites
clustered around Santa Rosa.

1879
01:50:34,960 --> 01:50:36,440
There were seven churches in
Zarahemla.

1880
01:50:36,440 --> 01:50:43,840
Recall 125 BC #11.
The isthmus is called the

1881
01:50:43,840 --> 01:50:46,280
Isthmus of Taifwan Tepec, the
narrow neck of land.

1882
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:49,840
Taifwan Tepec means hills of
wild beasts.

1883
01:50:57,800 --> 01:51:04,120
Remember it was called the
Wilderness of Haremounts is

1884
01:51:04,120 --> 01:51:06,920
described as being full of wild
beasts just like we did with the

1885
01:51:06,920 --> 01:51:11,160
Pegas 12.
The earliest long cow date in

1886
01:51:12,320 --> 01:51:16,720
Chapa de Corso, which is another
ancient city along the Grijalva,

1887
01:51:17,960 --> 01:51:20,400
is the same year the Nephites
were forced out of Zerahemelin.

1888
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:24,520
This also shows that rioting was
prevalent in the area at the

1889
01:51:24,520 --> 01:51:25,680
right time.
Yeah.

1890
01:51:28,120 --> 01:51:31,720
And we'll run through these 13
pottery from highland Guatemala,

1891
01:51:31,880 --> 01:51:35,040
which was the land of the first
inheritance, starts to show up

1892
01:51:35,040 --> 01:51:41,800
around 200 BC in the Chiapas
depression, where the Grijalva,

1893
01:51:41,800 --> 01:51:43,920
the Sidon is.
OK.

1894
01:51:44,920 --> 01:51:47,800
The same time that Messiah left
Nephi for Zarahemla.

1895
01:51:49,280 --> 01:51:55,840
Interesting. 14 Don't refer to
the Chiapas or the Grijalva.

1896
01:51:55,840 --> 01:51:57,560
They're talking about
Zerahemela.

1897
01:51:58,520 --> 01:52:02,880
Central Chiapas depression was
abandoned around 3:50 AD.

1898
01:52:03,000 --> 01:52:06,480
Ha ha, the same kind of Nephites
abandoned the land of Zerahemela

1899
01:52:08,200 --> 01:52:10,360
up into Zerahemela from the loud
of Bountiful.

1900
01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:13,080
Only makes sense if the land of
Zerahemela is at a higher

1901
01:52:13,080 --> 01:52:15,120
elevation than the land
northward.

1902
01:52:15,560 --> 01:52:19,360
The scriptures going from
Bountiful up to Zerahemela when

1903
01:52:19,360 --> 01:52:21,120
it's really going southward.
Why would they say that?

1904
01:52:21,720 --> 01:52:24,720
Because they said the same thing
about going up to Nephi.

1905
01:52:24,720 --> 01:52:26,520
Because they're talking about
elevation, not direction.

1906
01:52:28,240 --> 01:52:32,640
Same as we do #16 The name
Sidom, where Alma bless the

1907
01:52:32,640 --> 01:52:37,360
Isram, has the same meaning as
Zakhtun, The old Mayan name of

1908
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:41,440
Chiapa del Corazzo, both meaning
white or limestone.

1909
01:52:42,800 --> 01:52:45,280
The Office depression,
surrounded tightly by mountain

1910
01:52:45,280 --> 01:52:48,320
wilderness on three sides, as
reported by the land of

1911
01:52:48,320 --> 01:52:54,040
zarahimla #18 La Libertad in the
Central Depression, is abandoned

1912
01:52:54,280 --> 01:52:58,480
at the same time the Lamanites
take over Manti.

1913
01:52:58,840 --> 01:53:02,320
Manti was a southernmost
entrance to the Grijalva River

1914
01:53:02,320 --> 01:53:05,120
Valley.
It was the first settlement he

1915
01:53:05,120 --> 01:53:06,640
came to before coming into their
hemlock.

1916
01:53:07,160 --> 01:53:11,040
It was abandoned about 65 BC as
the Lamanites were encroaching

1917
01:53:11,040 --> 01:53:15,880
upon them 19.
The Sidon River was rapid enough

1918
01:53:15,880 --> 01:53:19,840
to carry bodies out to sea.
The Grijalva River has many

1919
01:53:19,840 --> 01:53:25,240
quick Rapids. 20 Mirador has
evidence of destruction around

1920
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:29,320
100 BC, similar to the
destruction of Amaniah.

1921
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:35,080
At the same time, El Mirador is
north up on toward the Yucatan

1922
01:53:35,720 --> 01:53:42,240
of the Gurihalva. 21 Santa Rosa
that was near that was that

1923
01:53:42,240 --> 01:53:45,120
would be Zerahemela shows
evidence of being partly

1924
01:53:45,120 --> 01:53:51,200
partially destroyed by fire
around 30 AD as described by

1925
01:53:51,200 --> 01:53:55,640
Third Nephi.
What 22.

1926
01:53:57,600 --> 01:54:00,480
There was a relocation of sites,
defensible positions by the

1927
01:54:00,520 --> 01:54:05,440
Upper Grijalva from 200 BC to
200 AD during Alma Wars,

1928
01:54:05,440 --> 01:54:08,440
indicating evaders from the
South 23.

1929
01:54:09,000 --> 01:54:11,680
The first examples of elite
burials from Chapo del Corazo

1930
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:14,560
accompanied by weapons,
suggesting a greater emphasis on

1931
01:54:14,560 --> 01:54:18,320
military aspects of leadership
during the Horiconis or Alma

1932
01:54:18,320 --> 01:54:23,360
Wars time period. 20, 2200 BC to
0.

1933
01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:26,200
Evidence of violence during the
Horiconus period at Chiapito

1934
01:54:26,200 --> 01:54:32,760
Coruso. 24 More direct access
from the Grijalva River area to

1935
01:54:32,760 --> 01:54:36,760
gold, silver, copper and other
ore deposits in the Chiapas

1936
01:54:36,760 --> 01:54:39,120
Mountains compared to the USOMA
Sinta.

1937
01:54:39,120 --> 01:54:41,360
So the Grijalva River is
preferable of the USOMA Sinta

1938
01:54:41,360 --> 01:54:42,680
because they had more access to
metals.

1939
01:54:43,120 --> 01:54:48,640
Gotcha. 25 The Zoque, which were
the name of these people, Both.

1940
01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:50,040
That's been given to the people
at least.

1941
01:54:50,680 --> 01:54:55,320
Influence and Maya ceramic style
disappeared from the Chapa del

1942
01:54:55,320 --> 01:54:58,360
Corso at the time Mosiah took
over the land of Zerahembla.

1943
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:02,640
So if the Zolkoi were the
Melekites and Miixsei were the

1944
01:55:02,640 --> 01:55:05,040
Nephites, that would explain
some of that.

1945
01:55:05,240 --> 01:55:11,760
All interesting stuff.
Oh brother, this is good.

1946
01:55:11,840 --> 01:55:15,920
OK, according to most versions
of the Mesu America blah blah

1947
01:55:15,920 --> 01:55:19,240
Mormon geography theory, the
Isthmus of Taifwan to back the

1948
01:55:19,240 --> 01:55:21,800
narrow net strip of land
separating the Gulf of Mexico

1949
01:55:21,800 --> 01:55:24,200
and Pacific Ocean constitutes
the narrow neck.

1950
01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:28,600
While this strip of Terra Firma
certainly reflects A narrow neck

1951
01:55:28,600 --> 01:55:30,400
of land between two larger
bodies of land, some may

1952
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:32,600
question how this section could
be traversed in a day and a

1953
01:55:32,600 --> 01:55:34,800
half.
By any fact, when the narrowest

1954
01:55:34,800 --> 01:55:42,880
point is 137 miles, it's a lot.
The Book of Mormons narrow neck

1955
01:55:42,880 --> 01:55:47,840
was obviously not extremely not
extremely narrow because it was

1956
01:55:47,840 --> 01:55:49,600
I8.
We read that the limb high

1957
01:55:49,600 --> 01:55:52,840
explorers unknowingly pass
through it and thought they were

1958
01:55:52,840 --> 01:55:54,040
still around the land of Surrey
Hemlet.

1959
01:55:54,040 --> 01:55:55,840
So it has to be wide enough for
that to happen.

1960
01:55:56,440 --> 01:55:58,600
Right.
There are several possible

1961
01:55:58,600 --> 01:56:00,240
explanation for the travel
distance to lemma.

1962
01:56:00,240 --> 01:56:03,160
John source explains to the
travel distance for an ephite

1963
01:56:03,160 --> 01:56:05,160
might refer to someone
accustomed to traveling long

1964
01:56:05,160 --> 01:56:09,040
distance in short periods.
Sorenson cites the example of

1965
01:56:09,040 --> 01:56:12,000
some Mexican Indian foot runners
who have been known to run up to

1966
01:56:12,000 --> 01:56:18,640
500 miles in six days, or he
cites a man in 73 who walked 500

1967
01:56:18,640 --> 01:56:22,720
miles in six days as a man who
traveled 161 miles in a 24 hour

1968
01:56:22,720 --> 01:56:23,960
period.
So it's not unheard of this.

1969
01:56:28,080 --> 01:56:31,960
There's another view of the
sites and the places labeled.

1970
01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:37,400
We can look more of that later.
The river systems.

1971
01:56:39,640 --> 01:56:44,160
These are the corollaries
between the Book of Mormon

1972
01:56:44,160 --> 01:56:46,520
peoples and meso American
history.

1973
01:56:48,080 --> 01:56:54,560
They're practically identical.
The approximate end of the Olmec

1974
01:56:54,560 --> 01:56:58,000
civilization was around 600 BC.
That was the approximate

1975
01:56:58,000 --> 01:56:59,640
termination of the Jaredite
lineages.

1976
01:57:00,920 --> 01:57:04,920
Small tribes still continued so
forth.

1977
01:57:05,840 --> 01:57:08,000
So in terms of the cultures,
they correspond almost

1978
01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:10,280
perfectly.
OK.

1979
01:57:12,520 --> 01:57:14,960
We're going to talk a little bit
about the earlier Jaredite

1980
01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:18,720
culture, which is correspondent
to the Olmec culture.

1981
01:57:19,120 --> 01:57:21,680
These are the Olmec settlements
throughout Mesoamerica.

1982
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:24,640
Same region.
The the Olmecs were the ones who

1983
01:57:24,640 --> 01:57:27,000
who had the big statue of the
heads, right?

1984
01:57:27,000 --> 01:57:28,840
Exactly, exactly.
OK.

1985
01:57:30,520 --> 01:57:35,360
In fact, we'll talk more about
Jerry Grover, incredible LDS,

1986
01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:38,520
underappreciated LDS scholar.
He wrote a book and he thinks he

1987
01:57:38,520 --> 01:57:41,600
has identified they called it's
the book is called The Swords of

1988
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:44,800
Shul.
He identifies those heads with

1989
01:57:44,800 --> 01:57:47,200
the kings in the Book of Mormon.
I haven't even had I had a

1990
01:57:47,200 --> 01:57:50,920
chance to read.
And here's the cool thing.

1991
01:57:52,680 --> 01:57:57,240
In contrast to the people trying
to profit off the heartlanders.

1992
01:57:58,040 --> 01:58:01,280
Jerry Grover is giving all of
his books away free, free

1993
01:58:01,280 --> 01:58:02,680
download.
Go to his website, download

1994
01:58:02,680 --> 01:58:03,960
them.
Amazing.

1995
01:58:05,600 --> 01:58:10,760
So these are the early Jaredite
settlements, Olmec settlements.

1996
01:58:12,280 --> 01:58:15,880
Interesting that they go right
down through what Mesoamericans

1997
01:58:15,880 --> 01:58:19,000
believe.
Mesoamericanists believe is the

1998
01:58:19,480 --> 01:58:26,520
is Zarahimla a Nephite?
Those are the trade routes of

1999
01:58:26,520 --> 01:58:33,480
the Olmec.
Purple diamonds of basalt,

2000
01:58:34,240 --> 01:58:40,560
yellow magnetite, green squares,
Serpentine, and the green

2001
01:58:40,560 --> 01:58:42,000
circles are where they were
getting jade.

2002
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:44,280
You can see that's why they were
going all these places to get

2003
01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:45,680
that stuff.
Right.

2004
01:58:46,440 --> 01:58:52,080
Pretty cool, and now we get to
your question.

2005
01:58:52,640 --> 01:58:55,000
The most fundamental
geographical problem associated

2006
01:58:55,000 --> 01:58:57,760
with Sorence's model has to do
with issues of directionality.

2007
01:58:58,440 --> 01:59:00,800
In order for his model to fit
the geography of Mace America,

2008
01:59:00,800 --> 01:59:03,920
one must assume the Nephites had
a system of directions with

2009
01:59:03,920 --> 01:59:08,720
cardinal directions skewed 45��
or more off the usually observed

2010
01:59:08,720 --> 01:59:14,120
Cardinals.
The phrases land northward, Land

2011
01:59:14,120 --> 01:59:16,640
southward can parallel the
functions of North and South

2012
01:59:17,080 --> 01:59:21,880
spatial orientation markers, but
the the The Book of Mormon

2013
01:59:21,880 --> 01:59:24,000
doesn't use those
interchangeably.

2014
01:59:25,000 --> 01:59:28,800
Land northward does not mean the
same thing as the land N we find

2015
01:59:28,800 --> 01:59:32,440
in 3rd and Nephi 62.
And it came to pass that they

2016
01:59:32,440 --> 01:59:35,320
did return to their own lands
and their possessions both on

2017
01:59:35,320 --> 01:59:38,800
the north and on the South, both
on the land northward and on the

2018
01:59:38,800 --> 01:59:40,480
land southward.
Are they just repeating

2019
01:59:40,480 --> 01:59:43,480
themselves?
There is no reason to indicate

2020
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:46,920
the spatial orientation twice.
And the reference here clearly

2021
01:59:46,920 --> 01:59:49,240
separates the land from the
spatial orientation.

2022
01:59:49,240 --> 01:59:50,520
They're talking about two
different things.

2023
01:59:52,360 --> 01:59:57,520
That's a Brant Gardner.
Brant Gardner gives us best

2024
01:59:57,520 --> 01:59:58,840
treatment.
We're going to talk about that

2025
01:59:58,840 --> 02:00:01,840
here.
Western cardinal directions are

2026
02:00:01,840 --> 02:00:05,600
what come.
What was that say at the top?

2027
02:00:05,600 --> 02:00:11,280
Conceptually, A+ or A?
Yes, yes.

2028
02:00:11,720 --> 02:00:14,240
So our cardinal directions are
in the shape of a cross or a

2029
02:00:14,240 --> 02:00:15,440
plus.
Right.

2030
02:00:16,200 --> 02:00:19,920
Right, and cleanly associated
with the pure direction

2031
02:00:20,000 --> 02:00:21,680
equidistant from all other
directions.

2032
02:00:22,400 --> 02:00:24,960
The mesomerican system, which
and I'll show you pictures of

2033
02:00:24,960 --> 02:00:28,320
them, on the other hand, is
better represented in the form

2034
02:00:28,320 --> 02:00:33,760
of an X.
Why did they instead of a a A+

2035
02:00:33,760 --> 02:00:36,160
or a cross sign, why do they
have an X indicating their

2036
02:00:36,160 --> 02:00:39,560
directions?
Most ancient culture is derived

2037
02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:42,840
from solstice.
It's exactly right from the sun.

2038
02:00:43,440 --> 02:00:47,080
East is not a line toward the
sun at the equinox, but the

2039
02:00:47,080 --> 02:00:50,320
entire wedge created by tracing
the passage of the sun along the

2040
02:00:50,320 --> 02:00:53,720
horizon from solstice to
solstice from the center.

2041
02:00:54,560 --> 02:00:58,880
Archaeologist Prudence Rice puts
it clearly Maya quadrupartite

2042
02:00:59,280 --> 02:01:02,120
organization of horizontal
spaces not strictly based on the

2043
02:01:02,120 --> 02:01:05,160
Forfex cardinal directions
recognized in the modern world.

2044
02:01:05,640 --> 02:01:08,480
OK, yes.
Oh, go ahead, finish up.

2045
02:01:09,160 --> 02:01:12,400
Instead, the division seemed to
invoke invoke the solstice,

2046
02:01:12,400 --> 02:01:15,800
equinox positions and movements
of the sun as it rises on the

2047
02:01:15,800 --> 02:01:17,480
eastern horizon, it sets on the
western.

2048
02:01:17,880 --> 02:01:20,960
Although the plausible origin of
this conception is the travel of

2049
02:01:20,960 --> 02:01:25,440
the sun along the horizon,
Mesoamerican systems regularized

2050
02:01:25,640 --> 02:01:28,960
their depictions, and therefore
their perceptions, into a

2051
02:01:28,960 --> 02:01:31,800
quadrupartite system surrounding
the center.

2052
02:01:32,320 --> 02:01:36,160
The world was depicted as a
square with lines drawn from

2053
02:01:36,160 --> 02:01:42,320
corner to corner.
And here is an actual codex.

2054
02:01:44,120 --> 02:01:47,800
OK, so here's where I'm going to
have some pushback on this.

2055
02:01:49,000 --> 02:01:52,960
So I'm not a guy who believes
that the Americas were

2056
02:01:52,960 --> 02:01:58,000
uninhabited when the when the
lame when the, when the Lee

2057
02:01:58,000 --> 02:02:01,720
Heights show up, right?
Or most likely even the, the,

2058
02:02:01,760 --> 02:02:05,360
the Mulakites for or the the
brother of Jared and his people,

2059
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:11,840
right?
But we do know that Semitic

2060
02:02:11,840 --> 02:02:16,840
peoples had a pretty good
understanding of of the cardinal

2061
02:02:16,840 --> 02:02:22,160
directions, right?
And so the idea and, and they

2062
02:02:22,160 --> 02:02:25,880
also understood the solstices,
right, as evidenced in Egypt,

2063
02:02:25,880 --> 02:02:27,200
right?
I think there's plenty of

2064
02:02:27,200 --> 02:02:29,120
suggestions that they understood
that.

2065
02:02:30,000 --> 02:02:36,080
And so to drop a group of people
and then just have them start

2066
02:02:36,080 --> 02:02:43,680
using this, this, I don't even
know if this is the right word.

2067
02:02:44,720 --> 02:02:49,200
Equinoxial kind of pattern
doesn't seem to make a whole lot

2068
02:02:49,200 --> 02:02:51,600
of sense to me.
To me, I think that they would

2069
02:02:51,600 --> 02:02:59,040
still probably hold to their,
their east, West kind of cross

2070
02:02:59,120 --> 02:03:02,640
more than the X.
And the reason for that is that

2071
02:03:02,640 --> 02:03:09,000
the east, especially within
these, these Semitic folks, has

2072
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:13,360
a lot to do with resurrection,
those sorts of things, right?

2073
02:03:14,400 --> 02:03:20,080
And so I, I, I think that, that,
that, that, that's hard for me

2074
02:03:20,080 --> 02:03:22,400
to sell or, or buy, I should
say.

2075
02:03:23,200 --> 02:03:25,600
I was actually going to present,
I was going to present that as

2076
02:03:25,600 --> 02:03:29,080
the opposite argument that they
perceived directionally, they

2077
02:03:29,080 --> 02:03:33,800
perceived east and West, and
that's the same thing that's

2078
02:03:33,800 --> 02:03:36,400
happening in the New World.
Now, here's the other thought I

2079
02:03:36,400 --> 02:03:37,720
had.
This is just me talking.

2080
02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:40,800
Sure.
If you found yourself in this

2081
02:03:40,800 --> 02:03:46,040
land which was at a 45�� angle
about and you were going to head

2082
02:03:46,040 --> 02:03:50,520
northwest, but you didn't really
have that in your vocabulary,

2083
02:03:50,960 --> 02:03:52,480
sure, what would you?
What would you call it?

2084
02:03:54,640 --> 02:03:57,200
Northward northern a northerly
direction.

2085
02:03:57,200 --> 02:03:58,360
Now here's the interesting
thing.

2086
02:03:58,880 --> 02:04:00,320
I didn't work.
Yeah, go ahead.

2087
02:04:00,520 --> 02:04:03,400
But to me that looks way more W
than North, right?

2088
02:04:03,400 --> 02:04:08,240
As a guy who makes his living
looking at the the land, I'm

2089
02:04:08,240 --> 02:04:10,880
like, that is way more W than
North, right?

2090
02:04:10,920 --> 02:04:13,240
Oh wow, wow.
Play the expert card.

2091
02:04:13,240 --> 02:04:16,280
Dave, thanks a lot.
Sorry, no, I'm just saying, man,

2092
02:04:16,280 --> 02:04:17,960
I'm just telling you what I'm
looking at.

2093
02:04:20,120 --> 02:04:22,320
I mean, we're having this
conversation because clearly

2094
02:04:22,320 --> 02:04:24,640
this is perceived as the
greatest weakness of the

2095
02:04:24,640 --> 02:04:27,880
Mesoamerican model, right?
But here's the I I did a word

2096
02:04:27,880 --> 02:04:30,640
count of the Book of Mormon.
Oh, cool.

2097
02:04:30,760 --> 02:04:33,960
All right.
And how in terms of the words

2098
02:04:33,960 --> 02:04:36,080
indicating direction, how
frequently they're used?

2099
02:04:36,480 --> 02:04:39,480
OK.
It's extraordinary.

2100
02:04:40,280 --> 02:04:45,920
E is used a lot.
Northward second most, W yes.

2101
02:04:46,280 --> 02:04:48,280
N yes.
Here's the thing though.

2102
02:04:48,560 --> 02:04:52,720
Northward is always associated
with a land, N is not.

2103
02:04:53,240 --> 02:04:58,560
It's like an adjective.
The land northward itself is

2104
02:04:58,560 --> 02:05:03,880
referred to 25 times.
Land N 5 times, Eastward 3,

2105
02:05:03,880 --> 02:05:07,760
westward 0.
So they were clearly oriented

2106
02:05:07,760 --> 02:05:10,800
toward northward.
I mean, if you put land

2107
02:05:10,800 --> 02:05:13,280
northward and northward
together, that's 70 times.

2108
02:05:14,040 --> 02:05:19,480
Right.
Anyway, now let's apply the same

2109
02:05:19,480 --> 02:05:22,400
internal geography to the
Heartland geography models.

2110
02:05:23,360 --> 02:05:28,440
Now, prior to putting this
together, there were a bunch in

2111
02:05:28,440 --> 02:05:30,400
my experience.
You tell me what yours is.

2112
02:05:30,880 --> 02:05:33,720
I've seen the Heartland models.
I mean, they're like half a

2113
02:05:33,720 --> 02:05:36,160
dozen different ones competing
and changing all the time.

2114
02:05:36,240 --> 02:05:39,880
There are, there are and.
And Why is that?

2115
02:05:40,880 --> 02:05:43,320
'Cause they're they're always
looking for the next best fit.

2116
02:05:44,480 --> 02:05:45,960
Because they don't have a good
one yet.

2117
02:05:46,760 --> 02:05:49,600
OK.
If you ask me if we apply that

2118
02:05:49,600 --> 02:05:52,040
criteria that we said before
that is based on book

2119
02:05:52,040 --> 02:05:53,840
department's sayings, we have
issues.

2120
02:05:54,400 --> 02:05:57,800
So here is the model that you
can find get in the they call it

2121
02:05:57,800 --> 02:06:01,880
their geography kit on
bookofarmintevidence.com.

2122
02:06:02,320 --> 02:06:07,840
Meldrum site, Lehigh's Landing
here in Florida.

2123
02:06:08,360 --> 02:06:11,000
The West Sea is a flooded
Mississippi River.

2124
02:06:15,040 --> 02:06:17,560
Is there a, you're talking about
skewed directions.

2125
02:06:17,720 --> 02:06:18,920
Bountiful.
Supposed to be north of

2126
02:06:18,920 --> 02:06:20,040
Zarahemla.
What?

2127
02:06:21,160 --> 02:06:23,440
Right.
Yeah.

2128
02:06:24,400 --> 02:06:26,560
And Kimora north of that.
Yes.

2129
02:06:27,040 --> 02:06:29,600
Wait a minute.
Kimora is supposed to be north

2130
02:06:30,160 --> 02:06:36,080
of the narrow neck of land.
No, that would and to be fair,

2131
02:06:36,120 --> 02:06:40,080
right again, being a guy who's
willing to change if, if, if a

2132
02:06:40,080 --> 02:06:43,760
smoking gun is found, if I'm, if
I'm going to call out the the,

2133
02:06:44,600 --> 02:06:47,880
the narrow neck of land down
there and in South America or

2134
02:06:47,880 --> 02:06:51,520
Central America eskewed.
I got to say that this looks

2135
02:06:51,560 --> 02:06:56,160
more W than north to me or East
than north to me.

2136
02:06:56,720 --> 02:06:58,680
And here's a a closer version of
it.

2137
02:06:59,440 --> 02:07:03,640
Part of how they get their
narrow necks is by climbing that

2138
02:07:03,640 --> 02:07:06,560
the Great Lakes were flooded.
So they had a narrow neck here

2139
02:07:06,560 --> 02:07:10,440
and they have 3 narrow necks, 1
here, 1 here and one there.

2140
02:07:11,160 --> 02:07:13,120
And I don't get that from the
text at all.

2141
02:07:14,000 --> 02:07:16,160
They always seem to be referring
to the same place and the same

2142
02:07:16,160 --> 02:07:20,320
thing.
Then the other issue is north of

2143
02:07:20,480 --> 02:07:24,000
the narrow neck where Kimura is
supposed to be up here, they're

2144
02:07:24,000 --> 02:07:26,800
supposed to be evidence of the
greatest civilization that

2145
02:07:26,800 --> 02:07:30,000
they'd ever seen.
And archaeologically there

2146
02:07:30,000 --> 02:07:34,160
again, nothing, nothing.
All right there.

2147
02:07:34,880 --> 02:07:37,160
So here we go.
The, the, the hits.

2148
02:07:37,440 --> 02:07:42,040
These are the for for me, the
insurmountable issues with the

2149
02:07:42,040 --> 02:07:46,680
heartland geography, which if I
were to weigh this against their

2150
02:07:46,680 --> 02:07:51,720
tenuous claims, this would win
because it's factual the

2151
02:07:51,720 --> 02:07:55,440
Riverside and is flowing in the
wrong direction supposed to go

2152
02:07:55,440 --> 02:07:57,120
north.
Now they they start to play word

2153
02:07:57,120 --> 02:07:58,520
games with what mouth and head
means.

2154
02:07:58,520 --> 02:08:01,720
But we all and there the way
it's used in the Book of Mormon.

2155
02:08:01,720 --> 02:08:08,440
There's no question about that
#2 this land because Columbus

2156
02:08:08,440 --> 02:08:10,160
visited it.
He didn't come to the United

2157
02:08:10,160 --> 02:08:14,680
States, did he?
No. #3 Failure to recognize the

2158
02:08:14,680 --> 02:08:19,600
non-english speaking members of
the seat of Lehigh, which now

2159
02:08:20,320 --> 02:08:24,560
outnumber the English speaking.
4 Failure to recognize Joseph

2160
02:08:24,560 --> 02:08:26,680
Smith's statement that the New
World events of the Book of

2161
02:08:26,680 --> 02:08:31,480
Mormon occurred in Central
America. 5 The Hopewell and

2162
02:08:31,480 --> 02:08:37,880
Edina are not coexisting between
588 BC and 300 BC. 6 No written

2163
02:08:37,880 --> 02:08:40,720
language by either the Edina or
the Hopewell.

2164
02:08:41,280 --> 02:08:45,320
No sign of writing.
Seven No evidence in the United

2165
02:08:45,320 --> 02:08:51,240
States of any cement buildings
dating to 100 BC. 8 No evidence

2166
02:08:51,240 --> 02:08:55,360
of any gold in the area of the
proposed heartland of the United

2167
02:08:55,360 --> 02:08:59,360
States, let alone an abundant
supply by the Edina or Hopewell.

2168
02:09:00,040 --> 02:09:03,560
9 No evidence that the Edina
lived so far northward from the

2169
02:09:03,560 --> 02:09:07,800
Hopewell they occupied the same
space. 10 No evidence the

2170
02:09:07,800 --> 02:09:12,080
Hopewell even existed until
after the demise of the Edina

2171
02:09:14,040 --> 02:09:17,000
#11.
The West Sea being in the wrong

2172
02:09:17,000 --> 02:09:21,040
location.
The West Sea cannot be north of

2173
02:09:21,040 --> 02:09:23,320
Zarahemla according to the Book
of Mormon.

2174
02:09:23,400 --> 02:09:24,760
That's the great.
That's when they were talking

2175
02:09:24,760 --> 02:09:25,960
about the West Sea being the
Great Lake.

2176
02:09:26,160 --> 02:09:30,800
MI No narrow strip of mountain
mountainous wilderness going

2177
02:09:30,800 --> 02:09:31,880
from the East Sea to the West
Sea.

2178
02:09:31,880 --> 02:09:34,400
There's none of that.
The promised land was where?

2179
02:09:34,400 --> 02:09:37,720
Columbus Lehigh Jared We talked
about that already, the landing

2180
02:09:37,720 --> 02:09:41,560
place of Lehigh on the South
Coast of the Gulf of Mexico

2181
02:09:41,560 --> 02:09:44,840
instead of West of the land of
Nephi, which the Book of Mormon

2182
02:09:44,840 --> 02:09:47,880
teaches us, and South of the
narrow circle wilderness as

2183
02:09:47,880 --> 02:09:51,440
required by the Book of Mormon.
It could only have occurred in

2184
02:09:51,440 --> 02:09:55,440
Central America. 15 Moroni
promised and Joseph Smith stated

2185
02:09:55,800 --> 02:09:58,560
that the land choice above all
of the lands was this continent.

2186
02:09:59,760 --> 02:10:03,040
16 The lack of required
volcanoes and earthquakes in the

2187
02:10:03,040 --> 02:10:06,520
eastern United States to fulfill
the massive destruction needs of

2188
02:10:06,520 --> 02:10:11,040
their Nephi 8 Have some cool
pictures of that. 17 The

2189
02:10:11,040 --> 02:10:14,280
territory in Canada, north of
Lakes Irian, Ontario, simply

2190
02:10:14,680 --> 02:10:17,120
does not have required ruins
that reflect the Book of Mormon

2191
02:10:17,120 --> 02:10:19,800
statement that the Jaredite
civilization would be the

2192
02:10:19,800 --> 02:10:23,920
greatest upon the earth at one
period of time. 18 More than

2193
02:10:23,920 --> 02:10:26,240
half of the members of the
Treasury's Christ Latter St.

2194
02:10:26,240 --> 02:10:28,920
speak Spanish, and most of those
members live South of the

2195
02:10:28,920 --> 02:10:30,520
border, and that's gone up since
then.

2196
02:10:35,200 --> 02:10:36,720
All right, I don't know what to
do here.

2197
02:10:37,680 --> 02:10:45,600
What I did, John Sorensen, just
before 2013 when Mormon's codex

2198
02:10:45,600 --> 02:10:51,360
was published, he gave a a
teaser, a reading of it, and

2199
02:10:51,400 --> 02:10:55,760
this is what the reading is.
Let's start with this says

2200
02:10:55,760 --> 02:10:58,680
beginning as early as 1955, I
undertook to synthesize what I

2201
02:10:58,680 --> 02:11:03,080
was learning about ancient
Mesoamerica into a form intended

2202
02:11:03,080 --> 02:11:06,120
to answer the question, how did
the Book of Mormon account

2203
02:11:06,120 --> 02:11:09,680
relate to the civilization that
once occupied that area?

2204
02:11:10,280 --> 02:11:14,120
Now I have completed what will
no doubt be my last major work,

2205
02:11:14,760 --> 02:11:18,400
intended to convey what I have
learned over more than 60 years

2206
02:11:18,400 --> 02:11:20,200
of professional study of this
matter.

2207
02:11:21,000 --> 02:11:25,560
No one has spent that much time.
He was described once as having

2208
02:11:25,560 --> 02:11:29,040
inhaled the Book of Mormon.
He knew it so well and the

2209
02:11:29,040 --> 02:11:32,040
geographic reference so well.
The book is entitled Mormon's

2210
02:11:32,040 --> 02:11:35,080
Codex, and this presentation
offers a preview of its

2211
02:11:35,080 --> 02:11:36,760
essentials.
He was modeling it.

2212
02:11:36,760 --> 02:11:39,760
I think it was William Devers
who wrote a book about biblical

2213
02:11:39,760 --> 02:11:45,920
archaeology and the Bible and,
and to to to correlate those.

2214
02:11:46,120 --> 02:11:49,960
He came up with a couple of like
a score or a couple of scores of

2215
02:11:50,000 --> 02:11:55,520
correlations.
He he did the same thing for the

2216
02:11:55,520 --> 02:11:59,360
Book of Mormon lands.
He says the full argument

2217
02:11:59,360 --> 02:12:04,880
provides necessary explanations,
extensive footnotes, over 1300

2218
02:12:04,920 --> 02:12:08,720
bibliographical references, 3
appendices, and a dozen detailed

2219
02:12:08,720 --> 02:12:11,120
maps.
I identify what I call

2220
02:12:11,120 --> 02:12:13,760
correspondences between the
archaeological record for

2221
02:12:13,760 --> 02:12:16,480
Mesoamerica and the text of the
Book of Mormon.

2222
02:12:17,480 --> 02:12:21,400
So the other guy did around 40.
He says I have identified some

2223
02:12:21,400 --> 02:12:26,200
420 correspondences that tie the
Book of Mormon to the picture of

2224
02:12:26,200 --> 02:12:29,240
ancient Mesoamerican
civilization constructed by

2225
02:12:29,240 --> 02:12:30,880
archaeologists and other
researchers.

2226
02:12:31,400 --> 02:12:34,480
And then he proceeds to read out
of the 420 because he didn't

2227
02:12:34,480 --> 02:12:37,880
have time, 106 of them.
You just list them.

2228
02:12:39,520 --> 02:12:43,640
Now in my zeal, I put 106 here.
We don't have time for that,

2229
02:12:44,800 --> 02:12:47,440
right?
But we'll, we'll look at them at

2230
02:12:47,440 --> 02:12:49,880
least.
Well, you give the, you give the

2231
02:12:49,880 --> 02:12:52,160
reference up there in the slide.
People can go look.

2232
02:12:53,640 --> 02:12:57,920
Writing systems and records.
It gives just three lineage

2233
02:12:57,920 --> 02:13:01,360
stories.
Again, these are all exact

2234
02:13:01,760 --> 02:13:04,840
correspondences with ancient
Mesoamerican culture from that

2235
02:13:04,840 --> 02:13:06,960
time period in that place.
OK.

2236
02:13:07,520 --> 02:13:14,720
Human biology, political
economy, society, material

2237
02:13:14,720 --> 02:13:17,720
culture.
He's only giving 10 of 37 that

2238
02:13:17,720 --> 02:13:20,040
he found.
Cultivation, wine blocks and

2239
02:13:20,040 --> 02:13:24,240
herds, elephants.
The dearth of timber in the

2240
02:13:24,240 --> 02:13:26,920
North Country and cement.
It's all there.

2241
02:13:28,040 --> 02:13:33,240
Sacred towers, Nephite temples,
silk and linen.

2242
02:13:33,240 --> 02:13:38,160
Unbelievable hundreds of miles
of raised highways.

2243
02:13:39,040 --> 02:13:43,280
Well, I'll show you some
photographs of those government,

2244
02:13:43,920 --> 02:13:46,680
their central government and how
they political schisms,

2245
02:13:46,960 --> 02:13:50,760
elections, major rulers, younger
kings.

2246
02:13:50,760 --> 02:13:52,600
Sometimes it's called judicial
function.

2247
02:13:52,600 --> 02:13:56,280
Imprisonment was not used as an
ultimate form of punishment.

2248
02:13:56,280 --> 02:13:58,880
Prisoners were only held
temporarily for further

2249
02:13:58,880 --> 02:14:05,240
examination or trial.
Warfare 15 and 33 references the

2250
02:14:05,240 --> 02:14:08,680
way they fought, when they
fought #3 religion played a

2251
02:14:08,680 --> 02:14:12,000
major role in warfare, sometimes
the primary cause of conflict.

2252
02:14:12,000 --> 02:14:16,640
Imagine that.
What is that for both maze and

2253
02:14:16,640 --> 02:14:19,200
blah blah blah priestly
guidance.

2254
02:14:19,560 --> 02:14:23,200
The threat of internal war feuds
could last for generations.

2255
02:14:23,200 --> 02:14:25,360
What Nephi and Layman and
Lamiules?

2256
02:14:25,800 --> 02:14:29,920
Yeah, yeah, no.
Heads of local armies we'll call

2257
02:14:29,920 --> 02:14:34,520
captains What?
Sons of captains?

2258
02:14:36,120 --> 02:14:39,680
Some meso American armies were
composed of units of 10,000 men.

2259
02:14:39,680 --> 02:14:42,760
What?
OK, that's interesting.

2260
02:14:42,760 --> 02:14:46,680
The last, like the the Great
Last Battle, the most widespread

2261
02:14:46,680 --> 02:14:49,360
from form vacation, was by
excavating a dry mope, throwing

2262
02:14:49,360 --> 02:14:51,960
the soil up in the inner bank
against a timber palisade, and

2263
02:14:51,960 --> 02:14:54,040
building another line of direct
Timbers atop it.

2264
02:14:54,040 --> 02:14:58,120
Imagine that five types of
weapons agree with those of

2265
02:14:58,120 --> 02:15:03,360
Mesoamerica.
A battle standard.

2266
02:15:03,960 --> 02:15:08,160
I think we might make it.
We're going fast #12

2267
02:15:08,240 --> 02:15:11,920
Mesoamerican wars sometimes
continued until the victorious

2268
02:15:11,920 --> 02:15:15,160
commander was able to drink the
blood of the enemy leader.

2269
02:15:16,000 --> 02:15:22,720
Sound familiar?
Ideology, Religion 380 Cultural

2270
02:15:22,960 --> 02:15:30,840
patterns Mortality, Anticipated
Paradise, Resurrection,

2271
02:15:30,920 --> 02:15:34,280
Spiritual renewal, the
mesoamerican myth of the fall

2272
02:15:34,280 --> 02:15:43,880
and the first couple peace,
craft, prophets, baptisms,

2273
02:15:44,760 --> 02:15:53,280
sacrifice, communion, ritual,
belief and that is going to deal

2274
02:15:53,280 --> 02:15:55,040
with an archaeological time
periods.

2275
02:16:01,600 --> 02:16:04,600
Ether's picture of the early
Jaredite demography makes clear

2276
02:16:04,600 --> 02:16:08,080
inferentially that an indigenous
population already occupied the

2277
02:16:08,080 --> 02:16:15,560
land where they arrived.
This isn't for 600 BCA decline

2278
02:16:15,560 --> 02:16:18,200
of the society in which the
Jaredites lived took place.

2279
02:16:19,200 --> 02:16:22,680
So this is true for the Olmec. 3
The large archaeological site at

2280
02:16:22,680 --> 02:16:25,600
San Lorenz Tenocitlan in the
Isthmus of Tawantepec, at

2281
02:16:25,600 --> 02:16:29,120
present a preeminent Olmec city,
coincided in time and nature

2282
02:16:29,120 --> 02:16:32,240
with the great city built by the
Jaredite king Lib and a spot by

2283
02:16:32,240 --> 02:16:33,680
the narrow neck of land.
What?

2284
02:16:34,160 --> 02:16:36,760
The Jaredites use at least one
writing system which their

2285
02:16:36,760 --> 02:16:38,639
founders had brought from
Mesopotamia.

2286
02:16:39,840 --> 02:16:42,200
From three to perhaps 5 Systems
of writing were employed in

2287
02:16:42,200 --> 02:16:47,600
Mesoamerica by the end of the
Jaredite era, so from 600 BC

2288
02:16:47,600 --> 02:16:52,840
after Lee Heights arrived.
Evidence for direct transmission

2289
02:16:52,840 --> 02:16:54,840
of all my cultural elements to
later societies.

2290
02:16:56,959 --> 02:16:59,520
The Nephites moved to nearby
Highlands, became farmers.

2291
02:17:00,959 --> 02:17:03,879
Faces on small clay figurines
from the valley Guatemala dated

2292
02:17:03,879 --> 02:17:07,600
to 300 BC have skin surfaces
shaded white.

2293
02:17:11,920 --> 02:17:14,360
These correspond to differences
between fair Nephites and dark

2294
02:17:14,360 --> 02:17:20,040
Lamanites for near the time of
ZAI parties left.

2295
02:17:20,040 --> 02:17:22,200
Some evidence of warfare is
found in the archaeology of

2296
02:17:22,200 --> 02:17:25,240
Guatemala.
A Great Wall 22 feet high

2297
02:17:25,240 --> 02:17:28,440
protected the ancient ruined
city now called Kimanaluyu.

2298
02:17:29,160 --> 02:17:32,639
Coming of Hulu in Guatemala.
That's a hard one.

2299
02:17:33,840 --> 02:17:42,400
I wouldn't even have tried.
Urbanization riding pictures

2300
02:17:43,520 --> 02:17:48,440
Ceramic sphere, A pyramid in
coming of Hulu.

2301
02:17:50,000 --> 02:17:55,080
Major source of Obsidian
archaeology and history from 600

2302
02:17:55,080 --> 02:17:58,280
BC Part 2.
Oh my gosh.

2303
02:17:58,280 --> 02:18:06,200
See, it's overwhelming.
It is archaeology from 81 to 200

2304
02:18:07,480 --> 02:18:11,799
transition.
I'm getting tired.

2305
02:18:16,600 --> 02:18:20,120
Alt of the Feathered Serpent.
What's a quaddle?

2306
02:18:23,200 --> 02:18:26,040
If there's issues, some believe
cut squattle and some don't

2307
02:18:26,040 --> 02:18:29,959
think he represents it well.
But wealth expands dramatically.

2308
02:18:29,959 --> 02:18:32,559
The rise of factions,
militaristic imagery.

2309
02:18:35,280 --> 02:18:38,959
This is 200 to 400.
After the period of peace they

2310
02:18:38,959 --> 02:18:43,920
start to have factions again in
around 8350.

2311
02:18:43,959 --> 02:18:49,680
The Chiapas, where bizarre
Hamlet was, is depopulated to a

2312
02:18:49,680 --> 02:18:52,200
war instigated from by foes from
Guatemala.

2313
02:18:52,280 --> 02:18:58,320
Imagine that they made a
calendrical appointment to set

2314
02:18:58,320 --> 02:18:59,920
up their climactic battle in
Kimura.

2315
02:19:00,200 --> 02:19:05,440
They did that human sacrifice
appears secret organizations or

2316
02:19:05,440 --> 02:19:10,280
instrumental genocidal war is
the ultimate end of conflict

2317
02:19:10,280 --> 02:19:13,440
according to the Book of Mormon.
The Mesoamerican record of the

2318
02:19:13,440 --> 02:19:16,920
Terminal Classic era a few
centuries later shows a similar

2319
02:19:17,000 --> 02:19:19,040
historical result.
Extermination.

2320
02:19:20,160 --> 02:19:26,080
The conclusion of his
introduction the 106 items I

2321
02:19:26,080 --> 02:19:27,200
said.
The intent of the book is to

2322
02:19:27,200 --> 02:19:29,320
demonstrate that the Book of
Mormon exhibits what one would

2323
02:19:29,320 --> 02:19:32,600
expect of a historical document
produced in the context of

2324
02:19:32,600 --> 02:19:34,000
ancient Mesoamerican
civilization.

2325
02:19:34,000 --> 02:19:36,920
The intervening chapters have
shown that what scholars have

2326
02:19:36,920 --> 02:19:39,200
discovered about the
civilization and what the

2327
02:19:39,200 --> 02:19:42,000
Nephite record says are plainly
related.

2328
02:19:42,480 --> 02:19:46,360
At no less than 420 points, the
text corresponds to

2329
02:19:46,360 --> 02:19:49,400
characteristic Mesoamerican
situation statements or

2330
02:19:49,400 --> 02:19:51,600
illusions in history.
It is not.

2331
02:19:51,600 --> 02:19:54,880
I love how he says this.
It is not rational to suppose

2332
02:19:54,880 --> 02:19:57,640
that mere coincidence can
account for similarities of this

2333
02:19:57,640 --> 02:20:00,360
magnitude.
The parallels are too striking

2334
02:20:00,360 --> 02:20:03,640
and too sweeping to allow that
causal explanation.

2335
02:20:04,080 --> 02:20:05,880
Darn you, Joseph Smith, you
lucky devil.

2336
02:20:07,920 --> 02:20:10,240
OK.
So can can I ask a question here

2337
02:20:10,240 --> 02:20:13,640
on the sacrifices?
Because to me, that's something

2338
02:20:13,640 --> 02:20:19,400
that that has made sense from
that I've heard people who favor

2339
02:20:19,400 --> 02:20:23,680
the Heartland Model Express,
which is there doesn't seem to

2340
02:20:23,680 --> 02:20:29,560
be any animals down in South
America or Central America that

2341
02:20:29,560 --> 02:20:35,000
would suffice for keeping the
Law of Moses, right?

2342
02:20:35,280 --> 02:20:37,760
You could probably find some
birds that would be OK.

2343
02:20:38,200 --> 02:20:42,280
But there's no really hoofed
animal down there that someone

2344
02:20:42,280 --> 02:20:44,600
who's practicing the Law of
Moses is going to be able to

2345
02:20:44,600 --> 02:20:47,040
look at and be like, yeah, we
can use that.

2346
02:20:47,640 --> 02:20:49,360
That's one of the things that
have changed.

2347
02:20:49,360 --> 02:20:51,960
That's all changed.
That's changed, OK, which we're

2348
02:20:51,960 --> 02:20:57,360
going to see right here, OK.
In 2018 was the first large

2349
02:20:57,360 --> 02:21:00,200
scale Lidar study they performed
in Mesoamerica.

2350
02:21:00,600 --> 02:21:03,320
OK.
National Geographic broke the

2351
02:21:03,320 --> 02:21:05,360
story.
I'll never forget as I watched

2352
02:21:05,360 --> 02:21:10,200
it, they had these 4 imminent
Mesoamerican archaeologists

2353
02:21:10,200 --> 02:21:13,720
standing in front of this wall
of screens and suddenly they

2354
02:21:13,720 --> 02:21:18,800
turned on the image of the Lidar
image of this, oh, was it Pay 10

2355
02:21:18,800 --> 02:21:23,520
or Mirador, I forget which one.
When they had initially

2356
02:21:23,520 --> 02:21:27,800
excavated it, the central Plaza,
they estimated about 60,000

2357
02:21:27,800 --> 02:21:31,320
people in the population.
What they couldn't have seen

2358
02:21:31,320 --> 02:21:36,440
under all the trees and the and
the flora which the Lidar

2359
02:21:36,440 --> 02:21:39,040
stripped away so they could see
it on this giant wall.

2360
02:21:39,960 --> 02:21:45,480
We're not 60,000 people, 60,000
new structures that they had

2361
02:21:45,480 --> 02:21:48,840
never witnessed before and a
whole bunch of other stuff.

2362
02:21:49,160 --> 02:21:50,880
And you can see their mouths
drop open.

2363
02:21:51,280 --> 02:21:56,200
I read an account of a of an
archaeologist who was heading up

2364
02:21:56,200 --> 02:21:59,520
the project and pretty soon
there were dozens of people in

2365
02:21:59,520 --> 02:22:02,920
that room looking at the screens
with their mouths gaping open.

2366
02:22:03,520 --> 02:22:06,360
After about 30 minutes, he told
everybody to be quiet and he

2367
02:22:06,360 --> 02:22:09,720
said what I want us to realize
right now is that we have

2368
02:22:09,720 --> 02:22:14,680
witnessed in the last 30 minutes
more Mesoamerican archaeology

2369
02:22:14,680 --> 02:22:17,240
exposed than in the last 50
years.

2370
02:22:18,920 --> 02:22:21,040
Boom.
It's changed everything.

2371
02:22:21,440 --> 02:22:25,080
So they had is amazing.
They had to revise their

2372
02:22:25,080 --> 02:22:29,560
population estimates for that
one city from 60,000 upwards to

2373
02:22:29,560 --> 02:22:31,360
over a million.
Holy cow.

2374
02:22:32,520 --> 02:22:37,560
So and then then the story is
picked up by the other mates.

2375
02:22:37,560 --> 02:22:40,400
So this is a big deal. 2018.
These reports are based on

2376
02:22:40,400 --> 02:22:43,560
recently released findings, the
largest Lidar survey ever

2377
02:22:43,560 --> 02:22:49,080
attempted for archaeological
research by the Spanish name led

2378
02:22:49,080 --> 02:22:53,000
by Richard Hanson, LDS and for
Mandel Pais.

2379
02:22:53,000 --> 02:22:58,960
It mapped 10 tracts holding 2100
square kilometers in the Mirador

2380
02:22:58,960 --> 02:23:01,800
Basin and other areas of
northern Guatemala.

2381
02:23:02,320 --> 02:23:06,160
They serve, They they surveyed
area is less than the size than

2382
02:23:06,160 --> 02:23:10,920
half the size of Utah County.
So I was looking that up today.

2383
02:23:11,720 --> 02:23:15,040
Before Lidar they were saying
that they had only explored 1%

2384
02:23:15,040 --> 02:23:19,400
of the Mayan ruins.
Now with Lidar, they've explored

2385
02:23:19,640 --> 02:23:21,920
almost 5%.
Holy cow.

2386
02:23:25,040 --> 02:23:28,240
They had also to revise in that
time period the Mule Door Basin,

2387
02:23:28,240 --> 02:23:30,040
the largest city in the world,
was like Rome.

2388
02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:32,600
Right.
No longer.

2389
02:23:33,280 --> 02:23:39,320
It was here in this, according
to Parley P Pratt, early critics

2390
02:23:39,320 --> 02:23:42,240
dismissed the Book of Mormons,
saying there were no antiquities

2391
02:23:42,240 --> 02:23:44,840
in America, no ruined cities,
buildings, monuments,

2392
02:23:44,840 --> 02:23:48,640
description mounds or
fortifications to show the

2393
02:23:48,640 --> 02:23:50,440
existence of such people as the
Book of Mormon described.

2394
02:23:50,440 --> 02:23:52,920
That's what people believed in
Joseph Smith's lifetime.

2395
02:23:53,760 --> 02:23:56,240
Based on this new evidence from
the Maya Lolans, these grandiose

2396
02:23:56,240 --> 02:23:57,720
descriptions are not far
fetched.

2397
02:23:57,720 --> 02:24:01,320
After all, the details in this
story support dozens of verses

2398
02:24:01,320 --> 02:24:03,720
in the Book of Mormon that
describe dense populations,

2399
02:24:04,240 --> 02:24:07,440
sophisticated economies, Rd.
networks, large scale

2400
02:24:07,440 --> 02:24:11,640
agriculture, intensive land use,
disaster prone landscapes, and

2401
02:24:11,640 --> 02:24:13,520
prevalent warfare.
Even statements about the whole

2402
02:24:13,520 --> 02:24:16,360
face of the land being covered
by people and buildings may have

2403
02:24:16,360 --> 02:24:22,080
been more than just hyperbole.
Here's a photograph of that

2404
02:24:22,120 --> 02:24:26,720
Lidar image.
Lidar images have revealed

2405
02:24:26,720 --> 02:24:30,760
60,000 previously unknown
structures and we get to see

2406
02:24:30,760 --> 02:24:33,400
some of them.
Leading experts.

2407
02:24:33,400 --> 02:24:38,000
New population estimates as high
as I'm sorry, I said 1,000,015

2408
02:24:38,040 --> 02:24:41,400
to 20 million.
That's unbelievable, right?

2409
02:24:41,400 --> 02:24:44,720
For the lowland Maya during the
classic period, this means the

2410
02:24:44,720 --> 02:24:47,280
Maya civilization was much more
dense, complex and advanced to

2411
02:24:47,280 --> 02:24:50,360
people as they thought.
This is consistent with the

2412
02:24:50,360 --> 02:24:52,520
situation described by Mormon.
The whole face of the land had

2413
02:24:52,520 --> 02:24:55,520
become covered with buildings
and the people were as numerous

2414
02:24:55,520 --> 02:24:57,280
almost as it were the sand of
the sea.

2415
02:25:00,440 --> 02:25:03,000
They and they found
fortifications everywhere.

2416
02:25:03,520 --> 02:25:09,200
They were obsessed with them.
I love this Lidar image.

2417
02:25:09,200 --> 02:25:11,000
What do you see?
You see the Plaza, the central

2418
02:25:11,000 --> 02:25:13,520
Plaza, and you see pyramids at
the top, central pyramids.

2419
02:25:14,000 --> 02:25:19,840
And you see raised highways.
They found hundreds of miles of

2420
02:25:19,840 --> 02:25:23,760
these, not in just the Lola and
Maya, but also in the highland

2421
02:25:23,760 --> 02:25:27,400
Guatemala.
The highland areas just recently

2422
02:25:27,400 --> 02:25:34,040
found they were elevated so they
functioned even during the rainy

2423
02:25:34,040 --> 02:25:36,280
season.
They had a well developed

2424
02:25:36,280 --> 02:25:38,800
infrastructure, provided public
works such as dams, ditches,

2425
02:25:38,800 --> 02:25:42,280
irrigate irrigation systems,
were on an industrial scale,

2426
02:25:42,680 --> 02:25:50,520
Reservoirs and stone quarries,
animals and food remains of

2427
02:25:50,560 --> 02:25:55,400
animal hens, flocks and herds as
discussed in the Book of Mormon

2428
02:25:56,000 --> 02:25:59,320
are evidenced by the art by the
lighter archaeology.

2429
02:26:00,120 --> 02:26:02,640
They had flocks and herds of
domesticated animals.

2430
02:26:04,040 --> 02:26:05,960
OK, but what kind of animals
does it say?

2431
02:26:07,040 --> 02:26:08,520
I'm sure it does.
I don't remember.

2432
02:26:08,520 --> 02:26:10,640
I knew you were going to ask me
something that I wasn't prepared

2433
02:26:10,640 --> 02:26:12,680
for.
But I do believe they had sheep.

2434
02:26:12,720 --> 02:26:14,920
Yes, and I think they had
cattle.

2435
02:26:15,120 --> 02:26:19,160
Because I, I just did a quick
Google search to see if if goats

2436
02:26:19,160 --> 02:26:22,960
were like indigenous to, to
Central America.

2437
02:26:22,960 --> 02:26:26,520
And again, if I'm going to
question on one side, question

2438
02:26:26,520 --> 02:26:30,560
the other, of course with the
with the the archaeologist as of

2439
02:26:30,560 --> 02:26:33,680
right now, they are saying that
they weren't introduced into the

2440
02:26:33,680 --> 02:26:36,080
Americas until European
settlement.

2441
02:26:38,240 --> 02:26:40,400
OK, I I'll get back to you on
that one.

2442
02:26:40,400 --> 02:26:43,960
I'm not prepared to answer that
one until OK, I I could chew

2443
02:26:43,960 --> 02:26:45,000
from the hip, but I'd rather
not.

2444
02:26:45,320 --> 02:26:50,720
No, that's fine.
Now we get to the last section.

2445
02:26:50,720 --> 02:26:56,160
You made it.
Consider the for a land to

2446
02:26:56,160 --> 02:26:58,280
qualify as the Book of Mormon,
it had to satisfy all the

2447
02:26:58,280 --> 02:27:01,440
geological requirements of the
which there are many, right, All

2448
02:27:01,440 --> 02:27:03,720
of the anthropological
requirements, which are even

2449
02:27:03,720 --> 02:27:07,720
more.
And if those two agree the law

2450
02:27:07,720 --> 02:27:09,200
of two witnesses, that's pretty
cool.

2451
02:27:09,800 --> 02:27:12,680
And now if this, if we can get
the geological evidence to agree

2452
02:27:12,680 --> 02:27:15,720
with that, that's almost a slam
dunk.

2453
02:27:18,320 --> 02:27:21,720
And most of the geological
references come from this verse.

2454
02:27:22,800 --> 02:27:25,520
3rd Nephite Chapter 9.
Well, it's also chapter 8.

2455
02:27:25,880 --> 02:27:28,560
But third Nephite Chapter 9,
verses 3 through 10 is where

2456
02:27:28,600 --> 02:27:33,120
Jesus Christ himself, his voice
announces to the surviving

2457
02:27:33,120 --> 02:27:36,040
Nephites what happened to all of
these cities.

2458
02:27:36,240 --> 02:27:39,280
Otherwise they would not know.
They didn't have satellites or

2459
02:27:39,280 --> 02:27:41,000
planes or drones or anything
like that.

2460
02:27:42,160 --> 02:27:45,200
Sir Hamlet burned with fire.
Meroni sunk in the depths of the

2461
02:27:45,200 --> 02:27:47,360
sea.
Meroniah covered with earth.

2462
02:27:47,920 --> 02:27:52,920
Gilgal.
I've sunk Oniah and Mocha, and

2463
02:27:52,920 --> 02:27:56,240
the city of Jerusalem.
Habits thereof caused the water

2464
02:27:56,240 --> 02:27:57,880
and waters.
Have I caused to come up in the

2465
02:27:57,880 --> 02:27:58,680
stead thereof?
Oops.

2466
02:27:59,800 --> 02:28:01,400
Gideoni.
Gideon.

2467
02:28:01,440 --> 02:28:02,760
Gideon.
Yeah.

2468
02:28:02,760 --> 02:28:04,600
Jacob.
And give No.

2469
02:28:05,080 --> 02:28:08,080
Have I caused to be sunk and
made hills and valleys in the

2470
02:28:08,080 --> 02:28:10,080
places thereof?
What is that?

2471
02:28:10,960 --> 02:28:13,360
And I buried the inhabitants in
the depths of the earth.

2472
02:28:13,480 --> 02:28:18,960
How did he do that?
Jacob Goth burned with fire.

2473
02:28:19,680 --> 02:28:22,760
City of Josh Gad, Kishkumen
burned with fire.

2474
02:28:23,160 --> 02:28:27,560
These are all the same.
So we see burned with fire, sunk

2475
02:28:27,560 --> 02:28:31,400
in the sea, covered with earth,
or the waters came up over them.

2476
02:28:33,920 --> 02:28:38,800
Here we have Sorrence's map
again.

2477
02:28:39,880 --> 02:28:45,360
Zarahemla burned with fire.
Jerusalem, the waters covered

2478
02:28:45,360 --> 02:28:51,720
up.
Some of them don't.

2479
02:28:52,000 --> 02:28:59,320
He didn't have identify
identities for OK, but this

2480
02:28:59,320 --> 02:29:01,040
geologist, Jerry Grover found
them.

2481
02:29:08,360 --> 02:29:11,840
Here's another 1 based on
Sorensen's Hill, Shem Hill,

2482
02:29:11,840 --> 02:29:14,840
Camara, the Tuxla Mountains.
Bountiful.

2483
02:29:14,960 --> 02:29:16,840
Where do we talk about the
geology of Bountiful?

2484
02:29:16,840 --> 02:29:22,080
Blow your mind, Moroni.
Swept away by the waters.

2485
02:29:28,560 --> 02:29:30,840
And then this one I want to go
back and forth.

2486
02:29:31,240 --> 02:29:33,680
This is showing the
archaeological sites.

2487
02:29:35,080 --> 02:29:37,840
OK.
In Mesoamerica, we can go back

2488
02:29:37,840 --> 02:29:41,760
and forth and see.
Well, here's Santa Rosa Chapa

2489
02:29:41,760 --> 02:29:49,720
Darkozzo Alenke Samaba.
I want you to remember that one.

2490
02:29:49,880 --> 02:29:53,960
That's going to be crazy and
come in Alhuyu.

2491
02:29:55,520 --> 02:30:00,600
We believe in the city of Nephi.
Which one does he believe is the

2492
02:30:00,600 --> 02:30:05,400
city of Nephi?
Kamin Alhuyu, land of the first

2493
02:30:05,400 --> 02:30:10,560
inheritance, and that Samaba is
probably Jerusalem, if not one

2494
02:30:10,560 --> 02:30:16,440
of the other lake cities on the
waters of Mormon, which is Lake

2495
02:30:16,440 --> 02:30:22,280
Atitlan.
And then we have San Lorenz, La

2496
02:30:22,320 --> 02:30:28,280
Venta, Teresa Voltes, which were
the great cities of the Olmec,

2497
02:30:30,560 --> 02:30:35,240
Oaxaca.
All right.

2498
02:30:36,680 --> 02:30:40,720
And then you see how that corn
coincides with Sorensen's

2499
02:30:40,800 --> 02:30:44,040
guesses, Educated guesses.
Oops.

2500
02:30:48,720 --> 02:30:54,960
All right, Jerry Grover, all of
the hazards described in 3rd

2501
02:30:54,960 --> 02:30:58,880
Nephite that we read can be
accounted for as the products of

2502
02:30:58,880 --> 02:31:02,560
volcanic eruption and regional
earthquakes.

2503
02:31:02,560 --> 02:31:06,120
Do they ever happen together?
It will also be useful to look

2504
02:31:06,120 --> 02:31:08,520
at storm and hurricane hazards
as they may also have been

2505
02:31:08,520 --> 02:31:10,960
operated.
He decided they didn't, but the

2506
02:31:10,960 --> 02:31:13,440
type of things he can expect
from volcanic hazards,

2507
02:31:13,920 --> 02:31:17,480
pyroclastic and surge flows,
volcanic debris slides, layhars,

2508
02:31:18,080 --> 02:31:21,200
ash and tephrafal, which they
talk about, they couldn't light

2509
02:31:21,200 --> 02:31:28,800
a fire, volcanic earthquakes,
tsunami and lava flow in this

2510
02:31:28,800 --> 02:31:32,760
area of Mesoamerica.
What's the likelihood of not

2511
02:31:32,760 --> 02:31:36,640
only finding the cities in place
and the anthropologies in place,

2512
02:31:37,280 --> 02:31:41,920
but those very geological causes
of those horrible events?

2513
02:31:42,520 --> 02:31:46,920
This is the volcano which is
right there near Hal Hilkamara

2514
02:31:47,040 --> 02:31:52,800
Gilrama called the San Martin.
It erupted in 1793 and the

2515
02:31:52,800 --> 02:31:56,400
fallout radius was what we see
here in this photograph or in

2516
02:31:56,400 --> 02:32:04,040
this image, which would cover
bountiful all things north and

2517
02:32:04,720 --> 02:32:07,320
coming down just north of
Zarahemla.

2518
02:32:12,610 --> 02:32:16,650
These are the confirmed volcanic
eruption dates of San Martin.

2519
02:32:18,890 --> 02:32:22,240
Interesting.
Yeah, yeah.

2520
02:32:23,280 --> 02:32:25,000
That's it.
That's very interesting.

2521
02:32:28,160 --> 02:32:32,040
A volcano scenario for the third
Book 35 disaster is not viable

2522
02:32:32,040 --> 02:32:34,920
to account for the description
given in the Book of Mormon, as

2523
02:32:34,920 --> 02:32:38,440
volcanic earthquakes are simply
not of the magnitudes necessary

2524
02:32:39,000 --> 02:32:41,440
to account for the events and
level of damage described in the

2525
02:32:41,520 --> 02:32:43,760
Book of Mormon.
And so, in addition to volcano,

2526
02:32:43,800 --> 02:32:47,080
a large regional earthquake will
be necessary to account for the

2527
02:32:47,080 --> 02:32:51,040
level of damage described.
So he examines the prime, the

2528
02:32:51,040 --> 02:32:52,680
major faults.
Right.

2529
02:32:58,280 --> 02:33:01,640
Let's see, Volcano increasingly
shows a mechanical relationship

2530
02:33:01,640 --> 02:33:03,520
between earthquakes and
volcanoes.

2531
02:33:04,400 --> 02:33:07,520
A worldwide detail study of
volcano earthquake interactions

2532
02:33:07,520 --> 02:33:09,680
was compiled by Edgar and Walter
in 2009.

2533
02:33:10,240 --> 02:33:12,280
They determined some patterns
that applied to 3rd Nephi

2534
02:33:12,280 --> 02:33:15,640
situation One, volcanic
eruptions can be triggered

2535
02:33:15,640 --> 02:33:17,440
within seconds of an earthquake
event.

2536
02:33:18,840 --> 02:33:21,920
The most occur on the same day.
The highest correlation of

2537
02:33:21,920 --> 02:33:24,800
earthquakes triggering volcano
pressure was around the Pacific

2538
02:33:24,800 --> 02:33:27,840
Ring of Fire, which is right
where we're talking.

2539
02:33:27,880 --> 02:33:29,960
About.
The most common events occur

2540
02:33:29,960 --> 02:33:32,280
when the earthquake is near the
volcano.

2541
02:33:32,560 --> 02:33:37,480
We'll have to see where that is.
Before an earthquake.

2542
02:33:37,480 --> 02:33:40,600
There is less regional volcanic
activity in the years leading up

2543
02:33:40,600 --> 02:33:43,200
to the earthquake.
After the earthquake, there is

2544
02:33:43,200 --> 02:33:46,000
more regional volcanic activity,
as we saw with San Martin.

2545
02:33:47,000 --> 02:33:49,120
Paralleling these findings, 1/3
knee fire eruption, an

2546
02:33:49,120 --> 02:33:51,000
earthquake occurred virtually
simultaneously.

2547
02:33:51,520 --> 02:33:54,440
The Isthmus of Taquantepec is
part of the Ring of Pacific Ring

2548
02:33:54,440 --> 02:33:56,800
of Fire.
The San Martin volcano and the

2549
02:33:56,800 --> 02:34:00,240
Tuxla volcanic complex lies
directly in the Veracruz fault

2550
02:34:00,360 --> 02:34:02,800
system.
I'll show you a picture of that.

2551
02:34:03,200 --> 02:34:07,160
And the magma preferentially
flows, follows the fault zone to

2552
02:34:07,160 --> 02:34:10,120
the surface.
El Chichon and other volcanoes

2553
02:34:10,120 --> 02:34:13,120
in the Isthmus are also on fault
zones and immediately adjacent

2554
02:34:13,120 --> 02:34:15,160
to fault zones.
And there it is.

2555
02:34:16,080 --> 02:34:21,800
So here's Gulf of Mexico, this
is where Hilcamara Rama is up

2556
02:34:21,800 --> 02:34:28,000
there in Mexico, southern
Mexico, there's San Martin.

2557
02:34:28,000 --> 02:34:30,600
And there's the fault line right
there running right through it.

2558
02:34:32,320 --> 02:34:35,080
Interesting.
Wouldn't clearly trigger that

2559
02:34:35,080 --> 02:34:41,440
mess, so it would cause a fault
like where most fissuring

2560
02:34:41,440 --> 02:34:44,160
subsidence, lateral spreading,
liquefaction and earthquake

2561
02:34:44,160 --> 02:34:46,360
induced landslides would be
expected.

2562
02:34:47,640 --> 02:34:54,480
Gotcha.
Let's see, all right, It's a

2563
02:34:54,480 --> 02:34:56,800
slip.
It's a strike slip fault, which

2564
02:34:56,800 --> 02:34:58,720
generally it's typically
generate surface ruptures,

2565
02:34:58,720 --> 02:35:01,000
fractures, and subsidence.
It talks about the rocks

2566
02:35:01,000 --> 02:35:04,160
breaking and stuff.
It is located in the land

2567
02:35:04,160 --> 02:35:05,800
northward where the worst damage
occurred.

2568
02:35:06,240 --> 02:35:08,600
Part of the fault segment is in
the land southward and could

2569
02:35:08,600 --> 02:35:10,000
cause damage in the land
southward.

2570
02:35:10,440 --> 02:35:13,080
It is located on and adjacent to
the coastal plains.

2571
02:35:13,080 --> 02:35:15,200
It occurs in areas that had
significant population at the

2572
02:35:15,200 --> 02:35:19,600
time satisfies most of the
provincial preferential

2573
02:35:19,600 --> 02:35:21,840
conditions.
Major volcano.

2574
02:35:22,720 --> 02:35:27,200
Now Martin, we talked about that
major rivers and lakes.

2575
02:35:30,120 --> 02:35:32,960
The only preferential criteria
that does not appear to be met

2576
02:35:32,960 --> 02:35:35,840
in the ability to cause
subsidence in the city of in the

2577
02:35:35,840 --> 02:35:43,080
city of Jerusalem because it's
too far as the intensity felt at

2578
02:35:43,080 --> 02:35:45,920
a distance of 400 kilometers
from the southern region of

2579
02:35:45,920 --> 02:35:48,240
Veracruz Fault, which would not
be enough to cause any direct

2580
02:35:48,240 --> 02:35:51,160
subsidence in Lake Atitlan, the
waters department.

2581
02:35:52,680 --> 02:35:54,920
However, the destruction of the
city of Jerusalem may have

2582
02:35:54,920 --> 02:35:58,000
involved non earthquake related
events, so this condition is not

2583
02:35:58,000 --> 02:36:01,000
critical.
The Veracruz fault segment is

2584
02:36:01,000 --> 02:36:03,000
the best fit for the primary
location of the regional

2585
02:36:03,000 --> 02:36:07,320
earthquake that occurred at the
time of 35 and he talks about

2586
02:36:07,320 --> 02:36:10,280
specific cities.
The city of Zerahemela quote

2587
02:36:10,280 --> 02:36:13,960
took fire.
So it wasn't it wasn't like rain

2588
02:36:13,960 --> 02:36:17,480
was fire was landing on it.
As we will see, it was too far

2589
02:36:17,480 --> 02:36:24,120
for the fallout of the fire, for
an earthquake assisted ignition

2590
02:36:24,120 --> 02:36:28,440
Santa Rosa, which was Zerahemela
along the Grijalva.

2591
02:36:28,640 --> 02:36:31,320
Based on the intensity equations
and intensity calculations,

2592
02:36:31,320 --> 02:36:34,560
Chapter 10 would sit in an
earthquake intensity zone at

2593
02:36:34,560 --> 02:36:38,760
4:00 to 5:00 on the Macaulay
scale because it lies within 120

2594
02:36:38,760 --> 02:36:40,520
kilometers to the edge of the
zone of intensity.

2595
02:36:41,080 --> 02:36:44,880
And there's the picture of that.
So there's the isthmus again,

2596
02:36:44,880 --> 02:36:49,600
the narronect of land, the
Crialva, the Chiapas, Santa

2597
02:36:49,600 --> 02:36:55,840
Rosa, Zarahemli, Zarahemli.
It's outside of that zone, but

2598
02:36:55,840 --> 02:37:00,880
it would still be enough to
cause things to shake, and he

2599
02:37:00,880 --> 02:37:03,200
supposes that candles would fall
over and it caught fire and

2600
02:37:03,200 --> 02:37:07,520
burned.
So under the Macaulay intensity

2601
02:37:07,520 --> 02:37:11,120
scale, four or five is described
as follows, which he calculates.

2602
02:37:11,560 --> 02:37:15,440
Felt indoors by many, outdoors
by a few dishes, windows, doors

2603
02:37:15,440 --> 02:37:20,920
to serve.
Felt by nearly everyone 5 Many

2604
02:37:20,920 --> 02:37:24,080
awakened, some dishes, windows
woken, usable objects

2605
02:37:24,080 --> 02:37:25,720
overturned.
Pendulum talk may stop.

2606
02:37:26,120 --> 02:37:28,200
It would appear that a regional
earthquake along the Veracruz

2607
02:37:28,200 --> 02:37:32,720
Fault may have been enough to
overturn candles or other such

2608
02:37:32,720 --> 02:37:34,880
elements of fire to start the
spread of fire.

2609
02:37:35,880 --> 02:37:38,120
As has been previously
mentioned, there's always a

2610
02:37:38,120 --> 02:37:40,640
possibility of large sympathetic
earthquakes along faults, and

2611
02:37:40,640 --> 02:37:44,080
there's their hamlet.
The best fit explanation for the

2612
02:37:44,080 --> 02:37:46,120
destruction of their hamlet is
ignition caused by either

2613
02:37:46,120 --> 02:37:49,360
lightning or earthquake induced
upset of ignition sources.

2614
02:37:50,200 --> 02:37:54,840
With the presence of high winds
from a large local storm, Moroni

2615
02:37:54,880 --> 02:37:56,880
was caused to be sunk in the
depths of the sea.

2616
02:37:57,120 --> 02:38:01,640
According to the Book of Mormon,
Moroni is a coastal city along

2617
02:38:01,640 --> 02:38:06,360
the North Shore on the coast of
the Gulf of Mexico.

2618
02:38:09,520 --> 02:38:12,800
It does not itself sit within
the anticipated area of direct

2619
02:38:12,800 --> 02:38:16,800
earthquake subsidence, but the
soils around it are susceptible

2620
02:38:16,800 --> 02:38:18,880
to earthquake amplification of
1.6 points.

2621
02:38:20,560 --> 02:38:23,680
So we put it in the intensity
level, the Mercauli level 7,

2622
02:38:23,680 --> 02:38:26,800
which is quite bad.
Liquefaction would yeah.

2623
02:38:27,040 --> 02:38:29,760
Because of the susceptible
soils, liquefaction could be a

2624
02:38:29,760 --> 02:38:33,160
contributing factor to the
substance can account for a drop

2625
02:38:33,160 --> 02:38:36,920
in elevation.
A best fit is Moroni was would

2626
02:38:36,920 --> 02:38:39,480
be a combination of earthquake
damage and liquefaction and the

2627
02:38:39,480 --> 02:38:42,920
impact of one of multiple
tsunamis triggered by the

2628
02:38:42,920 --> 02:38:45,600
submarine earthquake movement of
the Veracruz fault.

2629
02:38:45,840 --> 02:38:48,120
So the fault line partly in the
water could have caused the

2630
02:38:48,240 --> 02:38:51,840
tsunami.
Anyway, all fits time, place and

2631
02:38:52,320 --> 02:38:56,200
means there's where he puts
Moroni.

2632
02:38:58,920 --> 02:39:01,760
So the narrow neck is over here.
Right.

2633
02:39:02,080 --> 02:39:05,320
And Zaramble would be down here,
and this will be going into the

2634
02:39:05,320 --> 02:39:07,640
Yucatan.
That's where Moroni was.

2635
02:39:07,920 --> 02:39:14,480
Gotcha.
Oh, let's see.

2636
02:39:14,480 --> 02:39:18,880
Oh, this one is cool.
Sorenson says he doesn't know

2637
02:39:18,880 --> 02:39:23,840
where it is, but the way it was
the destruction city was

2638
02:39:23,840 --> 02:39:29,240
characterized that the earth was
carried up upon the city and in

2639
02:39:29,240 --> 02:39:31,720
the place of that city there
became a great mountain.

2640
02:39:32,920 --> 02:39:35,840
What in the heck is that talking
about?

2641
02:39:36,640 --> 02:39:41,720
On November 4th, 2007, along the
Grijalva River in the state of

2642
02:39:41,720 --> 02:39:45,680
Chiapas occurred one of the
largest landslides ever known.

2643
02:39:49,280 --> 02:39:52,120
It destroyed the town.
There was a town below it and it

2644
02:39:52,200 --> 02:39:56,480
wiped it out creating a water
and mud way 50 meters high,

2645
02:39:57,240 --> 02:40:01,000
destroyed the town, killing 20
people and moving 55,000,000

2646
02:40:01,000 --> 02:40:04,480
cubic meters of rock and debris
down slope that completely

2647
02:40:04,480 --> 02:40:10,920
dammed up the river, one of the
largest mass movements of earth

2648
02:40:10,920 --> 02:40:13,440
ever recorded.
The landslide went through the

2649
02:40:13,440 --> 02:40:16,440
river, burying the river and
whatever was on the riverbank on

2650
02:40:16,440 --> 02:40:19,080
the side of the river, living
what could clearly be described

2651
02:40:19,080 --> 02:40:21,480
as a great mountain.
The original bed of the river

2652
02:40:21,480 --> 02:40:24,000
was buried in 100 plus meters of
material.

2653
02:40:24,400 --> 02:40:27,720
The town of Juan del Grijalva
was actually along the margin of

2654
02:40:27,720 --> 02:40:30,400
the landslide, but still was
destroyed and lives were lost.

2655
02:40:31,520 --> 02:40:34,920
There's a photograph of it.
Holy cow.

2656
02:40:36,160 --> 02:40:39,120
So here's the Grijalva moving
this direction and it's dammed

2657
02:40:39,120 --> 02:40:42,120
up on this side.
The town was over here.

2658
02:40:45,640 --> 02:40:47,360
That's how it looks on the
grade.

2659
02:40:48,720 --> 02:40:53,440
Wow.
There's an aerial photograph of

2660
02:40:53,440 --> 02:40:55,400
it.
Holy cow.

2661
02:40:57,600 --> 02:41:00,520
That's where the town was.
You look closely, you can see

2662
02:41:00,520 --> 02:41:08,120
little buildings and stuff left
heaped up upon the town and

2663
02:41:08,120 --> 02:41:11,280
buried it on the Grijalva no
less.

2664
02:41:15,200 --> 02:41:17,040
That's a real photograph of the
other side.

2665
02:41:18,240 --> 02:41:20,640
I can tell because if the
water's deeper over there,

2666
02:41:22,160 --> 02:41:24,760
completely damp at the river.
Wow, now.

2667
02:41:27,320 --> 02:41:28,680
Here's the crazy thing about
this.

2668
02:41:31,440 --> 02:41:33,640
In most areas where these types
of large landslides have

2669
02:41:33,640 --> 02:41:37,840
occurred, they are reoccurrences
of prior landslides along the

2670
02:41:37,840 --> 02:41:39,920
same plain of slip.
Why?

2671
02:41:40,480 --> 02:41:43,160
Because once these landslides
occur, the river backs up

2672
02:41:43,160 --> 02:41:47,360
against the landslide material,
forming a lake until it overtops

2673
02:41:47,360 --> 02:41:50,400
the landslide material.
Once it overtops, it creates a

2674
02:41:50,400 --> 02:41:53,920
new channel, generally following
the alignment of the previous

2675
02:41:53,920 --> 02:41:56,040
channel.
Over time, the tow of the

2676
02:41:56,040 --> 02:41:59,360
landslide is eroded away.
Once the landslide tow material

2677
02:41:59,360 --> 02:42:01,440
is eroded away, the resistance
to slip for the rest of the

2678
02:42:01,440 --> 02:42:04,360
landslide is removed, allowing
for another reoccurrence of the

2679
02:42:04,360 --> 02:42:06,920
landslide.
Is likely that the Juan de

2680
02:42:06,920 --> 02:42:09,680
Grijalva landslide is one of
these situations that might be a

2681
02:42:09,760 --> 02:42:14,080
good candidate for the landslide
that destroyed Moroni Ha or any

2682
02:42:14,080 --> 02:42:21,400
other Nephite city in that area.
Wow, that's where it occurred.

2683
02:42:23,280 --> 02:42:25,280
Holy cow.
Right within the intensity level

2684
02:42:25,280 --> 02:42:27,920
which would have caused it of
the earthquake.

2685
02:42:32,920 --> 02:42:39,480
OK, this is arguably my favorite
city of Jerusalem, identified by

2686
02:42:39,480 --> 02:42:43,680
Sorenson as being on the South
shoreline of Lake Atitlan.

2687
02:42:43,720 --> 02:42:47,320
And he guessed that in 1980, and
then they found it in 1990.

2688
02:42:47,880 --> 02:42:49,880
Wow.
Identified with the

2689
02:42:49,880 --> 02:42:52,520
identification of the recently
discovered submerged city of

2690
02:42:52,520 --> 02:42:56,760
Samaba being a prime candidate.
Lake Atitlan is a lake in the

2691
02:42:56,760 --> 02:43:01,840
Guatemala Highlands scientific
class classified as endoric,

2692
02:43:02,080 --> 02:43:04,720
which means there is no surface
outfall.

2693
02:43:04,720 --> 02:43:06,640
It has no outlet.
OK.

2694
02:43:07,160 --> 02:43:09,680
Water leaves the lake through
presumed system of subterranean

2695
02:43:09,680 --> 02:43:13,600
fractions of fractures.
Thus, while the inflow of the

2696
02:43:13,600 --> 02:43:16,480
lake is quite variable, it's fed
by two rivers and rain.

2697
02:43:18,360 --> 02:43:21,160
The outflow remains constant.
In consequence, the lake level

2698
02:43:21,160 --> 02:43:27,080
is quite variable.
Atitlan is recognized to be the

2699
02:43:27,080 --> 02:43:31,840
deepest lake in Central America,
with maximum depth of about 340

2700
02:43:31,840 --> 02:43:36,640
meters, 1120 feet.
Wow, it's a volcanic part of a

2701
02:43:36,720 --> 02:43:39,200
volcano.
Holy cow.

2702
02:43:40,960 --> 02:43:43,160
The lake is shaped by deep
escarpments.

2703
02:43:43,720 --> 02:43:47,240
The lake basin is volcanic in
origin, filling an enormous

2704
02:43:47,240 --> 02:43:52,920
caldera warmed in an eruption
84,000 years ago.

2705
02:43:55,880 --> 02:43:59,520
There it is.
I have a friend who grew up in

2706
02:43:59,520 --> 02:44:01,040
Guatemala, used to swim in the
lake.

2707
02:44:01,840 --> 02:44:10,640
Really.
Yeah, and it shouldn't be

2708
02:44:10,640 --> 02:44:13,880
surprising they found more than
one settlement that's been

2709
02:44:13,880 --> 02:44:15,920
buried by the lake.
Really.

2710
02:44:15,920 --> 02:44:23,040
This is this is the big one.
We know that the water line in

2711
02:44:23,040 --> 02:44:26,800
the Book of Mormon times was at
least 17 meters below the

2712
02:44:26,800 --> 02:44:29,560
current average line based upon
the no depth of this merge city.

2713
02:44:29,840 --> 02:44:33,600
Because Sumabaya is 50 feet
underwater, we know that the

2714
02:44:33,600 --> 02:44:36,480
water line was lower than 50 by
at least 50 feet.

2715
02:44:40,280 --> 02:44:43,000
There's probable landslide
deposit and lava flows from the

2716
02:44:43,000 --> 02:44:46,280
adjacent to volcano.
Rising water with or without

2717
02:44:46,280 --> 02:44:52,160
subsidence and with or without
burial are all possible, and

2718
02:44:52,160 --> 02:44:54,280
there's a photograph of some of
the walls underwater.

2719
02:44:56,200 --> 02:44:59,240
Right.
That's Zumabah underneath Lake

2720
02:44:59,280 --> 02:45:02,560
Athidlam, maybe the city of
Jerusalem in the waters of

2721
02:45:02,560 --> 02:45:09,240
Mormon.
These cities, Sorenson didn't

2722
02:45:09,240 --> 02:45:12,120
have a good place for them, but
they were all buried up in the

2723
02:45:12,120 --> 02:45:16,240
depths of the earth.
Which leads Jerry Grover to

2724
02:45:16,240 --> 02:45:19,720
consider subsidence.
Interesting.

2725
02:45:20,000 --> 02:45:23,600
Covered with hills and valleys
and very it all you know that

2726
02:45:23,600 --> 02:45:27,480
they were and he thinks it's
quite informative as it is a

2727
02:45:27,480 --> 02:45:30,800
perfect description of the
uniquely hummicky deposits of

2728
02:45:30,800 --> 02:45:34,840
many volcanic debris avalanches
and some volcanic pyroclastic

2729
02:45:34,840 --> 02:45:37,200
flows.
So he thinks Caesar cities in

2730
02:45:37,200 --> 02:45:43,160
the north, right up near the
volcano, the San Martine, and

2731
02:45:45,080 --> 02:45:46,800
that they were buried in that
fashion.

2732
02:45:47,120 --> 02:45:49,760
There's a picture of the
aftermath of Saint Helens.

2733
02:45:50,240 --> 02:45:51,360
Where?
You can see all these.

2734
02:45:51,560 --> 02:45:55,960
This used to be a forest, and
now it's buried, as those cities

2735
02:45:55,960 --> 02:45:57,800
and peoples would have been by
the San Martin.

2736
02:45:58,200 --> 02:46:01,400
Washington's got some
interesting stuff to it.

2737
02:46:01,760 --> 02:46:04,800
If you ever get a chance, take a
look at an aerial photo of the

2738
02:46:04,800 --> 02:46:09,800
Washington Scablands.
In my in my opinion, that's some

2739
02:46:10,040 --> 02:46:13,360
some pretty good stuff to be
looking at.

2740
02:46:13,680 --> 02:46:16,240
Possible evidence of of Noah's
flood.

2741
02:46:16,720 --> 02:46:18,680
I agree.
The way that stuff ripped

2742
02:46:18,680 --> 02:46:20,720
through there.
I agree.

2743
02:46:21,000 --> 02:46:29,320
I agree wholeheartedly.
So here's the Ash fallout, the

2744
02:46:29,320 --> 02:46:31,240
volcanic deposit from San
Martin.

2745
02:46:32,440 --> 02:46:35,160
So those cities that start with
the G and are hard to pronounce

2746
02:46:35,760 --> 02:46:37,600
would probably be within that
radius.

2747
02:46:44,170 --> 02:46:47,880
These, they didn't catch fire
like Zerahemela did.

2748
02:46:47,880 --> 02:46:50,360
They were caused to be burned
with fire.

2749
02:46:52,600 --> 02:46:55,360
The most obvious explanation for
this method of destruction is is

2750
02:46:55,360 --> 02:46:58,440
ignition of the cities by
volcanic fallout.

2751
02:47:00,880 --> 02:47:04,600
Zerahemela took fire.
These were caused to be burned.

2752
02:47:05,720 --> 02:47:08,000
That's not a secondary
conflagration as he says.

2753
02:47:08,640 --> 02:47:11,280
So he's saying that they are in
this radius.

2754
02:47:11,280 --> 02:47:15,800
The fire, the Fire Zone, the
fire fallout, and there's a

2755
02:47:15,800 --> 02:47:19,800
second volcano which could have
gone off as well at the same

2756
02:47:19,800 --> 02:47:23,320
time period.
Wow.

2757
02:47:26,920 --> 02:47:29,800
Oh, Bountiful is good.
This is cool.

2758
02:47:29,800 --> 02:47:31,320
In the Book of Mormon, we're
almost to the end.

2759
02:47:31,320 --> 02:47:33,160
Hang in there, brother.
No, I'm the temple.

2760
02:47:33,760 --> 02:47:37,120
The temple in the Land of
Bountiful is not noteworthy

2761
02:47:37,760 --> 02:47:40,240
because of the description of
its destruction, but it is

2762
02:47:40,240 --> 02:47:44,000
noteworthy because it was
apparently not destroyed.

2763
02:47:46,000 --> 02:47:49,760
It was also situated in a
geographic position such that

2764
02:47:49,760 --> 02:47:52,600
the people are observing the
great and marvelous change that

2765
02:47:52,600 --> 02:47:55,680
had taken place.
The scriptures do not say what

2766
02:47:55,680 --> 02:47:58,680
the level of damage may have
been at the temple or in the

2767
02:47:58,680 --> 02:48:01,440
loud of Bountiful, but the
location clearly was positioned

2768
02:48:01,440 --> 02:48:06,720
to support a multitude of 2500
persons who were at or near the

2769
02:48:06,720 --> 02:48:08,960
temple.
And after Jesus appeared, these

2770
02:48:08,960 --> 02:48:11,360
men, women and children were
told to return to their homes,

2771
02:48:11,800 --> 02:48:14,680
which still existed, which they
later did.

2772
02:48:15,040 --> 02:48:18,160
The locale also contained or was
immediately adjacent to a much

2773
02:48:18,160 --> 02:48:21,640
larger population than 2500
persons, because overnight, just

2774
02:48:21,640 --> 02:48:23,960
by word of mouth, an exceeding
great number of persons were on

2775
02:48:23,960 --> 02:48:27,200
hand.
The next day the temple was also

2776
02:48:27,200 --> 02:48:29,600
adjacent to somebody water.
So at the temple they were

2777
02:48:29,920 --> 02:48:31,880
spared.
Nothing was destroyed.

2778
02:48:32,400 --> 02:48:35,440
They looked across the river and
it was a holy disaster.

2779
02:48:35,920 --> 02:48:40,720
How could that be?
Take a look.

2780
02:48:43,520 --> 02:48:46,120
The Sorenson model identifies
the city of Bountiful as being

2781
02:48:46,120 --> 02:48:50,000
in the area of the current city
of Tonala, which is located on

2782
02:48:50,000 --> 02:48:53,560
the West Bank of the Tonala
River prior to discharging into

2783
02:48:53,560 --> 02:48:57,960
the Gulf of Mexico.
This location does lie within

2784
02:48:57,960 --> 02:49:02,240
the Macaulay Zone 8 area,
however it is located on stable

2785
02:49:02,240 --> 02:49:05,600
bedrock consisting of
conglomerate, sandstone and

2786
02:49:05,600 --> 02:49:08,360
siltstone formations which may
have dampened surface

2787
02:49:08,360 --> 02:49:12,160
oscillations.
Importantly, directly across the

2788
02:49:12,160 --> 02:49:16,040
Tonala River going eastward is
an entirely different seismic

2789
02:49:16,040 --> 02:49:18,800
situation.
On the other side of the river,

2790
02:49:18,800 --> 02:49:23,440
it's sediment marsh deposits
that are extremely susceptible

2791
02:49:23,440 --> 02:49:26,320
to amplified grout shaking and
potential liquefaction.

2792
02:49:26,760 --> 02:49:28,840
The estimate for the
amplification increase for this

2793
02:49:28,840 --> 02:49:32,840
material, which extends for
kilometers, kilometers, eastward

2794
02:49:32,840 --> 02:49:36,480
and southward, is that it would
add 2.4 point 2.4 points to the

2795
02:49:36,480 --> 02:49:39,920
Macaulay scale, making the level
8 intensity estimated for the

2796
02:49:39,920 --> 02:49:45,440
area to be 10.4.
The describe the destruction.

2797
02:49:45,440 --> 02:49:48,440
Describe a description for
levels 10 and 11.

2798
02:49:49,480 --> 02:49:52,160
Wooden structures destroyed,
masonry and frame structures

2799
02:49:52,160 --> 02:49:56,760
destroyed with foundation rails
bent if they had drains, few if

2800
02:49:56,760 --> 02:49:58,840
any masonry structures would
remain standing.

2801
02:49:59,160 --> 02:50:02,480
Bridges would be destroyed.
The rails would be bent greatly

2802
02:50:03,880 --> 02:50:08,320
so on the temple side, flying on
the other side of the river,

2803
02:50:08,840 --> 02:50:11,240
level 10 and 11, knocking
everything down.

2804
02:50:13,800 --> 02:50:16,480
The identification of Bountiful
located at Tonala under the

2805
02:50:16,480 --> 02:50:19,720
Sorenson model is directly
supported by the underlying

2806
02:50:19,720 --> 02:50:22,680
geology and the regional
earthquake scenario.

2807
02:50:23,040 --> 02:50:25,480
The indication that Bountiful
exhibited a much lower level of

2808
02:50:25,480 --> 02:50:28,000
damage than areas immediately
adjacent is supported by the

2809
02:50:28,000 --> 02:50:31,520
underlying stable rock or
Bountiful is, and is also

2810
02:50:31,520 --> 02:50:34,040
supported by the extensive
damage caused by the earthquake

2811
02:50:34,040 --> 02:50:36,800
amplification in the marsh
alluvial deposits that would

2812
02:50:36,800 --> 02:50:41,800
have occurred within easterly
within sight, easterly across

2813
02:50:41,800 --> 02:50:43,800
the river for long distances
east and South.

2814
02:50:44,840 --> 02:50:47,880
This clearly squares with the
people marveling and wandering,

2815
02:50:48,320 --> 02:50:50,840
and we're showing one with
another the greater marvelous

2816
02:50:50,840 --> 02:50:53,640
change which had taken place.
No doubt some of the wonder

2817
02:50:53,640 --> 02:50:55,600
would have been caused by seeing
the relative difference in

2818
02:50:55,600 --> 02:50:58,200
levels of destruction from one
side of the river to the other.

2819
02:50:58,200 --> 02:51:06,440
And This is why boom.
So the isthmus of Taiwan to Peck

2820
02:51:06,440 --> 02:51:07,960
the narrow neck of land is right
here.

2821
02:51:08,320 --> 02:51:18,120
Right.
And here we have Pomora Rama and

2822
02:51:18,120 --> 02:51:25,320
the Hill Shim.
And Moroni, which had been swept

2823
02:51:25,320 --> 02:51:31,960
out to the sea, was over here,
and down here would be Zahimlah.

2824
02:51:32,600 --> 02:51:36,480
OK.
So Bountiful was spared, across

2825
02:51:36,480 --> 02:51:38,320
the river was destroyed.
Gee, I wonder why?

2826
02:51:40,760 --> 02:51:43,240
I see.
Yeah, No, 'cause on the other

2827
02:51:43,240 --> 02:51:47,400
side they'd be, they'd be.
They were up higher, right?

2828
02:51:48,320 --> 02:51:49,920
I I don't know what the
elevation was.

2829
02:51:50,680 --> 02:51:53,520
I would be serious to see what
the elevation changes.

2830
02:51:53,880 --> 02:51:57,760
And the only reason I'd be
curious is when I was living in

2831
02:51:57,760 --> 02:52:05,520
Salt Lake when that last decent
sized earthquake hit the 5.7 and

2832
02:52:05,560 --> 02:52:09,160
we could feel it obviously
really well in the valley.

2833
02:52:09,640 --> 02:52:13,080
But my buddy up in Heber said he
barely felt anything.

2834
02:52:13,080 --> 02:52:17,040
He did see the the the the
streetlight sway.

2835
02:52:17,400 --> 02:52:20,400
But yeah, there's there's a
significant difference, right?

2836
02:52:20,400 --> 02:52:22,560
I think Heber sets it.
Don't pull me.

2837
02:52:22,560 --> 02:52:26,480
I think 6000 now I'm not going
to guess, I'm just going to look

2838
02:52:30,840 --> 02:52:36,200
elevation.
Though it's cool.

2839
02:52:36,200 --> 02:52:39,480
I mean, here's Sorensen again.
The guy's prophetic.

2840
02:52:40,840 --> 02:52:44,440
He puts Bountiful right here.
He doesn't know what the soil

2841
02:52:44,440 --> 02:52:46,200
composition is.
No.

2842
02:52:46,200 --> 02:52:49,200
Along along comes Jerry Gober,
and he says Bountiful survived

2843
02:52:49,640 --> 02:52:55,880
because it was on a stable
bedrock across the river, was

2844
02:52:56,840 --> 02:53:00,800
subject to liquefaction, and
that's why they had such

2845
02:53:00,800 --> 02:53:02,480
destruction across the river
from Bountiful.

2846
02:53:03,080 --> 02:53:05,920
Anyway, I found that to be very
interesting stuff.

2847
02:53:06,680 --> 02:53:09,360
Yeah, I'd be curious to see what
the difference in elevation is

2848
02:53:09,360 --> 02:53:13,120
there, because Heber sits a good
thousand feet above, above Salt

2849
02:53:13,120 --> 02:53:16,200
Lake.
So his conclusions.

2850
02:53:16,200 --> 02:53:18,480
One of the principal goals of
this endeavor was to compare the

2851
02:53:18,480 --> 02:53:20,520
Sorenson model with the existing
geology.

2852
02:53:21,320 --> 02:53:24,400
The Sorenson Mesoamerican
geographic model is accurately

2853
02:53:24,400 --> 02:53:26,640
supported by the known
geological data against all

2854
02:53:26,640 --> 02:53:28,720
odds.
Although scientists are reticent

2855
02:53:28,720 --> 02:53:31,200
to use the word proven, there
are certain statements that can

2856
02:53:31,200 --> 02:53:34,200
be made that are very close to
the to the proven standard.

2857
02:53:35,200 --> 02:53:38,480
A volcanic eruption occurred as
part of the Third Nephite

2858
02:53:38,480 --> 02:53:41,280
destruction.
A volcanic eruption alone cannot

2859
02:53:41,280 --> 02:53:43,000
account for all the destruction
Third Nephi.

2860
02:53:43,440 --> 02:53:46,400
The destruction necessarily
involved regional earthquake 3.

2861
02:53:46,400 --> 02:53:49,560
Based on the current data, a
regional earthquake, the volcano

2862
02:53:49,560 --> 02:53:52,240
and their after effects can
account for all of the

2863
02:53:52,240 --> 02:53:55,480
destruction in 3rd Nephi, with
the exception of the city of

2864
02:53:55,480 --> 02:53:59,560
Jerusalem, which appears to have
been a local event. 4 The

2865
02:53:59,560 --> 02:54:03,200
primary regional earthquake
occurred on the Veracruz fault

2866
02:54:03,200 --> 02:54:07,240
system. 5 The primary volcano
involved is indicated to be the

2867
02:54:07,240 --> 02:54:11,280
San Martin volcano based on its
position in the isthmus and on

2868
02:54:11,280 --> 02:54:14,560
the Veracruz fault system, and
the eruption need not have

2869
02:54:14,560 --> 02:54:17,680
exceeded A4 on the VEI
explosivity scale.

2870
02:54:17,880 --> 02:54:21,320
I think goes up to 8, as is
hopefully been sufficiently

2871
02:54:21,320 --> 02:54:22,640
explained.
Determining that a single

2872
02:54:22,640 --> 02:54:25,760
volcano and a single fault
system can account for all the

2873
02:54:25,760 --> 02:54:29,720
destructive events in 35 does
not mean that there were no

2874
02:54:29,720 --> 02:54:34,600
other volcanoes active or that
were no other fault systems

2875
02:54:34,600 --> 02:54:36,960
activated.
There very well could have been

2876
02:54:37,160 --> 02:54:41,480
more, but at the very minimum,
San Martine, the Veracruz fault

2877
02:54:41,480 --> 02:54:45,120
system could have done
everything. 35 Chapter 9

2878
02:54:45,120 --> 02:54:49,160
described at the right time in
history in exactly the right

2879
02:54:49,320 --> 02:54:52,520
places with very interesting
detailed descriptions of their

2880
02:54:52,520 --> 02:54:57,800
destruction by Jesus himself.
Take that to the bank.

2881
02:54:59,920 --> 02:55:02,080
I didn't think we're, I didn't
think we were going to make it

2882
02:55:02,480 --> 02:55:03,520
of.
Course we'd make it.

2883
02:55:03,880 --> 02:55:08,760
OK, so I got some questions that
maybe you could, because I'd be

2884
02:55:08,760 --> 02:55:12,320
curious to get someone who's not
a Heartlander their their

2885
02:55:12,320 --> 02:55:15,840
explanation of this.
We've already talked about the

2886
02:55:15,840 --> 02:55:18,480
animals a little bit that would
be needed for sacrifice.

2887
02:55:18,480 --> 02:55:22,440
And you said you were going to
get back to me on those because

2888
02:55:22,440 --> 02:55:25,360
I, I do feel like if, if they're
going to go over there and

2889
02:55:26,000 --> 02:55:30,480
they're going to, they're going
to practice the law of Moses,

2890
02:55:31,040 --> 02:55:34,240
they're going to need animals
suitable for the sacrifice.

2891
02:55:36,040 --> 02:55:39,240
I would think so.
OK, so there's that.

2892
02:55:39,720 --> 02:55:44,600
My next critique of this,
obviously we've talked about

2893
02:55:44,680 --> 02:55:50,080
just the, the how it all weighs
and N versus South and that

2894
02:55:50,080 --> 02:55:53,120
whole thing.
The next thing that that I can't

2895
02:55:53,120 --> 02:55:57,440
quite get an answer on is that
in the Doctrine and Covenants,

2896
02:55:58,480 --> 02:56:02,640
it's the Lord that's talking.
And in 28 and 30 specifically,

2897
02:56:03,080 --> 02:56:08,160
he mentions all 28 specifically
8 and through 10 is where it's

2898
02:56:08,160 --> 02:56:10,240
at.
The Lord says, Oliver, you're

2899
02:56:10,240 --> 02:56:12,200
going on a mission to the
Lamanites.

2900
02:56:14,240 --> 02:56:19,320
Now, if the Lamanites were down
South, unless we're talking

2901
02:56:19,320 --> 02:56:28,920
about post migration, post, you
know, final war migration, how

2902
02:56:28,920 --> 02:56:34,120
would you account for for the
Lord telling that to Joseph to

2903
02:56:34,120 --> 02:56:37,680
tell the Oliver that you're
going to go on a mission to the

2904
02:56:37,680 --> 02:56:40,840
Lamanites?
Yeah, amongst the Latter Day

2905
02:56:40,840 --> 02:56:43,080
Saints in the 1830s and the
1840s.

2906
02:56:43,360 --> 02:56:45,560
Right.
Lamanite meant Native American

2907
02:56:45,560 --> 02:56:47,680
to them.
That that was their terminology

2908
02:56:48,240 --> 02:56:56,440
#1 #2 As I've said before, I
believe the Lamanites that were

2909
02:56:56,440 --> 02:57:00,640
helping to attack the Nephites
were not descendants of Lehman

2910
02:57:00,640 --> 02:57:02,360
and Lemuel.
OK, I think.

2911
02:57:02,400 --> 02:57:04,000
I think there were native
recruits.

2912
02:57:04,000 --> 02:57:09,520
They were the the their leftover
Jaredites, I mean, and to be

2913
02:57:09,520 --> 02:57:13,640
frank, all of North and South
America before Lehigh ever set

2914
02:57:13,640 --> 02:57:18,440
foot there was already populated
to some extent by the remnants

2915
02:57:18,840 --> 02:57:22,640
of the Jaredites.
And so now the the Lehmanites

2916
02:57:22,760 --> 02:57:26,080
become associated with them
affiliated or Lehman Lemnial.

2917
02:57:26,080 --> 02:57:30,240
They attach themselves and
recruit from the local natives,

2918
02:57:30,640 --> 02:57:33,480
which is why they constantly
outnumbered the Nephites and

2919
02:57:33,480 --> 02:57:36,240
probably why they experienced
some pigment color because they

2920
02:57:36,240 --> 02:57:39,160
were interbreeding with the
native population who were

2921
02:57:39,160 --> 02:57:41,960
Asians who would have a darker
pigment.

2922
02:57:42,720 --> 02:57:44,560
Not necessarily so, but that's a
possibility.

2923
02:57:45,680 --> 02:57:52,080
So in terms of all Native
Americans, as we've talked about

2924
02:57:52,080 --> 02:57:55,480
before, almost all Native
Americans have Asian DNA.

2925
02:57:57,520 --> 02:58:03,280
They're all related and the DNA
that the Leigh Heights brought

2926
02:58:03,280 --> 02:58:05,880
with them was a drop in the
bucket and there's practically

2927
02:58:05,880 --> 02:58:07,760
no way it could survive in any
meaningful amount.

2928
02:58:08,160 --> 02:58:10,560
OK.
Still doesn't change the fact

2929
02:58:11,320 --> 02:58:16,440
that just like you and I are
inevitably descendants of Jose.

2930
02:58:16,440 --> 02:58:20,160
Name kings Charlemagne.
Yeah, from Charlemagne.

2931
02:58:20,920 --> 02:58:23,560
Most of the Native Americans
today probably are descended in

2932
02:58:23,560 --> 02:58:25,320
some respect or another from
Leigh.

2933
02:58:25,320 --> 02:58:30,560
OK, all right.
But so when we say Lamanites,

2934
02:58:30,840 --> 02:58:34,560
they they called practically all
Native Americans Lamanites.

2935
02:58:34,720 --> 02:58:36,640
In fact, even as a kid, we all
did.

2936
02:58:38,040 --> 02:58:41,120
We had no idea.
I mean, I understand so much

2937
02:58:41,120 --> 02:58:43,880
more about we didn't know what
the DNA of the Native Americans

2938
02:58:43,880 --> 02:58:46,160
was back then.
Now we do.

2939
02:58:47,320 --> 02:58:50,120
And it's a it's enlightening as
as we talked in our earlier one

2940
02:58:50,120 --> 02:58:54,440
about DNAI find it actually a
stronger argument for the Book

2941
02:58:54,440 --> 02:58:57,840
of Mormon.
It makes so much more sense that

2942
02:58:57,840 --> 02:59:01,160
this entire Western Hemisphere
would be populate, populated by

2943
02:59:01,160 --> 02:59:06,000
the Jaredites who came from the
east were probably descendants

2944
02:59:06,000 --> 02:59:07,480
of Japheth.
Right.

2945
02:59:07,640 --> 02:59:13,760
With the J thing going on and
the Japheth was most likely the

2946
02:59:14,040 --> 02:59:16,920
the the Asian populations of the
world descended from the

2947
02:59:16,920 --> 02:59:19,160
Japheth.
That makes so much sense to me.

2948
02:59:19,520 --> 02:59:20,920
Got you.
And it's it's so much more

2949
02:59:20,920 --> 02:59:25,960
plausible and explain over a
3000 or a 2000 year time period

2950
02:59:26,120 --> 02:59:29,080
should over a 600 time year time
period, sure.

2951
02:59:29,640 --> 02:59:33,520
No, the only thing that gives me
pause there is, is it's it's

2952
02:59:33,520 --> 02:59:40,120
not, it's not the, the, the
population who's saying those

2953
02:59:40,120 --> 02:59:44,160
are the Lamanites.
It's God himself saying those

2954
02:59:44,160 --> 02:59:48,920
are the Lamanites.
Go preach to him That, that to

2955
02:59:48,920 --> 02:59:51,440
me is something I've had a hard
time working around.

2956
02:59:52,080 --> 02:59:56,200
Because I will say this.
If you're looking for just just

2957
02:59:56,360 --> 03:00:01,280
physical evidence, you, you know
that Sorenson makes a compelling

2958
03:00:01,280 --> 03:00:06,120
case, right?
And to be honest, it's, it's

2959
03:00:06,120 --> 03:00:09,120
because of that compelling case
that I'm again, as I put it

2960
03:00:09,120 --> 03:00:12,520
before, kind of a soft
heartlander, right?

2961
03:00:12,560 --> 03:00:14,040
I, I, I think that there's some
room here.

2962
03:00:14,840 --> 03:00:20,040
Well, listen, at the very least,
if that wasn't Sarah Himmler, it

2963
03:00:20,040 --> 03:00:21,720
was something that was a lot
like what the.

2964
03:00:22,040 --> 03:00:25,880
Right, exactly, and that's what
that's what I I want to give

2965
03:00:25,880 --> 03:00:29,840
Sorenson his due here, right.
I don't think he's completely up

2966
03:00:29,840 --> 03:00:33,760
in the night personally.
At the same time, there are

2967
03:00:33,760 --> 03:00:38,040
certain things that I see that I
have a hard time getting around

2968
03:00:38,040 --> 03:00:40,280
right.
And you know, they're they're

2969
03:00:40,280 --> 03:00:43,880
first hand accounts by Joseph.
We we have the words of the Lord

2970
03:00:43,880 --> 03:00:46,040
saying go preach to the
Lamanites.

2971
03:00:47,240 --> 03:00:51,440
And then, you know, we, we have
the, the, the thing with the,

2972
03:00:51,440 --> 03:00:56,560
the, the directional stuff.
Having said that, it's, you

2973
03:00:56,560 --> 03:00:59,680
can't, to me, you can't just
throw out everything Sorenson

2974
03:00:59,680 --> 03:01:04,000
did right based on that.
And so that's, that's where I

2975
03:01:04,400 --> 03:01:08,160
kind of fall and we're trying to
get it all to fit right.

2976
03:01:09,280 --> 03:01:12,320
And let me be clear.
I don't expect to have it all

2977
03:01:12,320 --> 03:01:14,320
fitting by the time I die,
right?

2978
03:01:14,840 --> 03:01:18,160
I think this will be something
they'll probably I'll learn when

2979
03:01:18,160 --> 03:01:21,360
I'm on the other side.
You know what we love?

2980
03:01:21,360 --> 03:01:22,880
A great puzzle.
That's what I'm thinking.

2981
03:01:23,240 --> 03:01:26,560
I was so excited to do this
because talk about a puzzle.

2982
03:01:26,880 --> 03:01:30,440
It is a thousands of thousands.
Of pieces and to get them all to

2983
03:01:30,440 --> 03:01:32,360
fit.
I mean, the fact that it fits

2984
03:01:32,440 --> 03:01:37,640
any place at all is amazing.
As closely as we have shown here

2985
03:01:37,640 --> 03:01:42,040
tonight is a testament of the
Book of Mormon itself.

2986
03:01:42,200 --> 03:01:46,200
Absolutely.
And I think, you know, at the

2987
03:01:46,200 --> 03:01:49,760
end of the day, as as we're
wrapping this thing up, I I

2988
03:01:49,760 --> 03:01:53,800
think I want to tell people if
you think you're going to find a

2989
03:01:53,800 --> 03:01:57,920
smoking gun in the evidence
that's been revealed so far,

2990
03:01:58,240 --> 03:02:01,880
it's not there, right?
It's just not.

2991
03:02:02,440 --> 03:02:04,560
That's not to say something's
not going to come forward it

2992
03:02:04,560 --> 03:02:05,920
someday.
I think it will.

2993
03:02:06,040 --> 03:02:11,120
When that is, I don't know.
But regardless, don't hit your

2994
03:02:11,120 --> 03:02:15,480
testimonies to this right.
If for some reason the evidence

2995
03:02:15,480 --> 03:02:19,760
starts piling up on one side or
the other, just be humble enough

2996
03:02:19,760 --> 03:02:21,840
to be like, oh, I got that
wrong.

2997
03:02:22,240 --> 03:02:24,960
Trust me, as a guy who's been
wrong a lot, it's not that.

2998
03:02:25,840 --> 03:02:27,440
It's not that bad once you get
used to it.

2999
03:02:28,160 --> 03:02:32,720
Just just own it.
But and and don't split your

3000
03:02:32,720 --> 03:02:36,440
friends over this.
And if you are going to split

3001
03:02:36,440 --> 03:02:39,120
your friends, I want you to
reach out to me because I think

3002
03:02:39,120 --> 03:02:41,720
we should just go ahead and
organize a cage match.

3003
03:02:42,080 --> 03:02:44,200
I think, you know, if you're
going to fight over it, let's

3004
03:02:44,200 --> 03:02:47,040
really fight over it.
I feel like, you know, we're

3005
03:02:47,040 --> 03:02:49,800
leaving some money on the table.
I think we can market this

3006
03:02:49,800 --> 03:02:53,680
thing.
But yeah, I.

3007
03:02:53,880 --> 03:02:57,400
Dude, this was compelling.
This was some interesting stuff

3008
03:02:57,400 --> 03:02:59,560
and certainly gave me some new
things to think about.

3009
03:03:01,680 --> 03:03:03,880
I see you typing away and
looking at Google.

3010
03:03:04,840 --> 03:03:12,440
Well, OK, Wade Miller, he's the
pre eminent LDS scientist who is

3011
03:03:12,440 --> 03:03:18,800
exploring the he was leading the
way in terms of cataloging the

3012
03:03:19,200 --> 03:03:22,160
existence of elephants
coexisting with mankind in the

3013
03:03:22,160 --> 03:03:24,920
Americas.
And I mean, it's massive stuff.

3014
03:03:24,920 --> 03:03:27,200
The same thing with horses.
He was way ahead of that game.

3015
03:03:27,640 --> 03:03:30,880
And here he is reporting on
sheep in the New World.

3016
03:03:31,160 --> 03:03:33,640
Sheep were probably among the
animals brought to America by

3017
03:03:33,640 --> 03:03:36,480
the Jaredites.
Although they were not stated

3018
03:03:36,480 --> 03:03:41,440
explicitly by name, they most
likely are to be included in the

3019
03:03:41,440 --> 03:03:45,120
term flocks that are mentioned
by name in ether several

3020
03:03:45,120 --> 03:03:48,080
generations later.
They have been useful demand for

3021
03:03:48,080 --> 03:03:56,120
many centuries, blah blah blah.
The most common type is the

3022
03:03:56,120 --> 03:03:58,560
mountain sheep.
Their current geographic range

3023
03:03:58,560 --> 03:04:03,400
extends only to northern Mexico.
However, their past range was

3024
03:04:03,400 --> 03:04:06,480
more extensive, as was their
habitat before human settlements

3025
03:04:06,480 --> 03:04:09,800
expanded.
They are the animal that they

3026
03:04:09,800 --> 03:04:11,760
are, an animal that can be tamed
or at least somewhat

3027
03:04:11,760 --> 03:04:14,360
domesticated.
According to Geist, it's hard to

3028
03:04:14,360 --> 03:04:16,880
imagine a wild animal more
readily trained than mountain

3029
03:04:16,880 --> 03:04:19,080
sheep.
Sorensen noted the apparent

3030
03:04:19,080 --> 03:04:22,960
recovery of sheep wool from a
pre Columbian burial site near

3031
03:04:22,960 --> 03:04:26,720
Puebla.
So pre Columbian they found

3032
03:04:26,720 --> 03:04:31,200
sheep wool.
So they had sheep clearly in

3033
03:04:31,200 --> 03:04:35,080
tetraglyphs from.
That's only stretching to north

3034
03:04:35,520 --> 03:04:37,520
northern Mexico, right?
Correct.

3035
03:04:37,840 --> 03:04:39,280
That doesn't go any farther
South.

3036
03:04:39,960 --> 03:04:46,120
Well, part of the problem with
organic remains in Mesoamerica

3037
03:04:46,480 --> 03:04:48,840
is the climate.
I mean, there's nothing we, we

3038
03:04:48,840 --> 03:04:51,520
know that the Aztecs were
sacrificing people by the

3039
03:04:51,520 --> 03:04:55,520
thousands and we're likely to
find their skulls, you know, So

3040
03:04:56,080 --> 03:05:00,000
that's part of the issue.
Petroglyphs from Mexico and the

3041
03:05:00,000 --> 03:05:03,000
southwestern United States show
many prehistoric depictions of

3042
03:05:03,000 --> 03:05:05,200
sheep.
It appears certain that the

3043
03:05:05,200 --> 03:05:08,160
association of sheep and man
occurred in America before this

3044
03:05:08,160 --> 03:05:12,320
animal was brought over
beginning in 1493 with Columbus

3045
03:05:12,640 --> 03:05:16,560
second voyage.
So there is evidence for it.

3046
03:05:16,560 --> 03:05:19,760
And like, say it, the Lidar
shows that they had flocks and

3047
03:05:19,760 --> 03:05:22,040
herds of something.
Right.

3048
03:05:24,960 --> 03:05:27,800
Yeah, anyway.
Dude that's this is fun stuff.

3049
03:05:29,280 --> 03:05:34,400
Oh I gosh, it was so much and I
just felt terrible just dumping

3050
03:05:34,400 --> 03:05:36,520
it on you as fast as I could.
No, you're good.

3051
03:05:36,520 --> 03:05:38,760
Barely had time to Dude, you're
fast.

3052
03:05:40,320 --> 03:05:44,880
You're fast anyway.
The I what I if there was one

3053
03:05:44,880 --> 03:05:50,720
thing I could impress upon
people is the impossibility of

3054
03:05:50,720 --> 03:05:52,680
what Joseph Smith did.
Yes.

3055
03:05:52,960 --> 03:05:57,680
Because he didn't do it.
The impossibility of some

3056
03:05:57,680 --> 03:06:04,960
accidental fictional book
matching very precisely and in

3057
03:06:04,960 --> 03:06:13,160
very precise terms ancient
archaeological sites, cultures,

3058
03:06:13,560 --> 03:06:20,720
traits, people's behaviors, let
alone the geology and the

3059
03:06:20,720 --> 03:06:23,880
geography of I mean, that's,
that's a practical

3060
03:06:23,880 --> 03:06:27,040
impossibility.
And at least as, at least as I

3061
03:06:27,040 --> 03:06:30,800
presented it tonight, I'm not a
big fat liar.

3062
03:06:30,800 --> 03:06:34,440
I mean, I'm not I, I, I'm
quoting really smart people.

3063
03:06:34,760 --> 03:06:37,600
Your your your character's above
reproach here, dude.

3064
03:06:37,680 --> 03:06:41,280
You've got.
Thanks it to me.

3065
03:06:42,760 --> 03:06:45,080
Do I base my testimony on it?
No, I don't.

3066
03:06:46,000 --> 03:06:48,080
Does it bolster my testimony?
Yes, it does.

3067
03:06:48,800 --> 03:06:52,320
Does it inform my understanding
of the Book of Mormon?

3068
03:06:52,920 --> 03:06:58,360
Holy cow, does it.
I mean, when, you know, when you

3069
03:06:58,360 --> 03:07:00,720
read the Book of Mormon the
first time, you can't even keep

3070
03:07:00,720 --> 03:07:03,400
the people straight, let alone
the places, the directions, the

3071
03:07:03,400 --> 03:07:06,400
travels.
Oh yeah, the stories inside

3072
03:07:06,400 --> 03:07:08,560
stories and.
I was going to say the, the,

3073
03:07:08,720 --> 03:07:12,560
the, the, the, the simple
narrative portions are too

3074
03:07:12,560 --> 03:07:15,640
complex at times.
I agree.

3075
03:07:15,640 --> 03:07:18,120
And then to put it together and
what was it, 90 days or

3076
03:07:18,120 --> 03:07:19,640
something like that?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

3077
03:07:19,720 --> 03:07:24,200
I mean.
Writers suspend on average a

3078
03:07:24,200 --> 03:07:28,040
year on a book and the more
complex the dialogue and the

3079
03:07:28,040 --> 03:07:31,280
narrative, the the the longer
that will go.

3080
03:07:31,280 --> 03:07:36,120
So I mean I.
Mean, I loved the idea of the

3081
03:07:36,120 --> 03:07:39,320
Tolkien map.
It was doesn't look like

3082
03:07:39,320 --> 03:07:43,480
anything and it was
geomorphically, what do you call

3083
03:07:43,560 --> 03:07:47,240
it geologically, geographically
flawed.

3084
03:07:47,560 --> 03:07:53,000
Then, then we have this Book of
Mormon between 600 and 1000

3085
03:07:53,000 --> 03:07:56,800
geographical references, plus
the geological references.

3086
03:07:57,520 --> 03:08:01,640
There's actually a place that
fits it almost perfectly, except

3087
03:08:01,640 --> 03:08:04,440
that it's not true North.
I think someday you can get over

3088
03:08:04,440 --> 03:08:07,520
that.
Not as a surveyor.

3089
03:08:08,000 --> 03:08:09,120
Not as a surveyor.
True.

3090
03:08:09,760 --> 03:08:12,240
I forgot who I was talking.
To not as a surveyor, you can't.

3091
03:08:12,760 --> 03:08:16,640
The sun always rises in the east
and it always sets in the West.

3092
03:08:17,080 --> 03:08:18,160
I'm not.
Getting.

3093
03:08:18,160 --> 03:08:20,960
Past that, oh, but there's
variation in that my friend

3094
03:08:21,360 --> 03:08:24,200
there.
Is but not enough that that we

3095
03:08:24,200 --> 03:08:29,760
would be able to flip a map 90��.
They didn't flip it 90��.

3096
03:08:29,760 --> 03:08:34,760
It's almost. 90�� look at the
map, it's almost 90.

3097
03:08:34,760 --> 03:08:41,480
Degrees only at one point they
still had to go northwardly to

3098
03:08:41,480 --> 03:08:43,520
get there.
So I don't know.

3099
03:08:43,560 --> 03:08:46,800
I'm I'm OK with it.
If you took a step and then went

3100
03:08:46,800 --> 03:08:49,360
directly north, I suppose you
could say that you were

3101
03:08:49,360 --> 03:08:54,600
northerly of your point of
origin too. 2 steps W one step

3102
03:08:54,640 --> 03:08:55,840
NI.
See what she said.

3103
03:08:55,880 --> 03:09:01,720
Yo, you're funny.
Yeah, see, these are how these

3104
03:09:01,720 --> 03:09:05,760
debates should go.
Dude, this.

3105
03:09:05,760 --> 03:09:08,800
This was good, good stuff.
I can't tell you how fun this

3106
03:09:08,800 --> 03:09:11,960
was.
I can't believe, I can't believe

3107
03:09:11,960 --> 03:09:14,000
this did not make a dent in you
where it was.

3108
03:09:15,200 --> 03:09:17,920
Dude, I told you I'm a soft
heartlander, right?

3109
03:09:17,920 --> 03:09:20,000
I've got no issues.
And the other thing.

3110
03:09:20,000 --> 03:09:23,280
Is.
What's that?

3111
03:09:24,320 --> 03:09:27,400
This one, this one should have
changed your mind right here.

3112
03:09:29,160 --> 03:09:33,040
Because we have something from
the Maya showing the Equatorial

3113
03:09:33,200 --> 03:09:36,440
or yeah, the equi the
Equatorial.

3114
03:09:36,440 --> 03:09:39,240
Rises.
This is symbolic of how they

3115
03:09:39,240 --> 03:09:42,000
perceived direction.
This is how.

3116
03:09:42,000 --> 03:09:44,360
No Now.
Now here's where I would push

3117
03:09:44,360 --> 03:09:46,440
back on this a little bit.
Oh, here we go.

3118
03:09:46,640 --> 03:09:50,120
Bring it on.
This is actually how the Maya

3119
03:09:50,120 --> 03:09:55,640
would have perceived this.
My contention is you drop and

3120
03:09:55,640 --> 03:09:59,400
and we know they weren't Jews
per SE like you and I understand

3121
03:09:59,400 --> 03:10:03,560
them right, But you drop a
Semitic people in the middle of

3122
03:10:03,560 --> 03:10:05,880
a new land.
It's hard for me to think that

3123
03:10:05,880 --> 03:10:11,200
they're going to adopt this
system as quick as what they

3124
03:10:11,200 --> 03:10:15,800
seem to do based off of how
important cardinal directions

3125
03:10:15,800 --> 03:10:22,880
were to those people.
Well, they they weren't abiding

3126
03:10:22,880 --> 03:10:25,120
by true north.
Now here let's the land of

3127
03:10:25,120 --> 03:10:27,880
Nephi, right here is where they
landed according to the Mesa

3128
03:10:27,880 --> 03:10:31,160
America model.
And then they went the narrow

3129
03:10:31,160 --> 03:10:33,400
strip of wilderness down into
Zarahemla.

3130
03:10:33,600 --> 03:10:37,880
Which direction are they going?
West.

3131
03:10:40,400 --> 03:10:44,160
Dude stop being so biased.
It's more north than West.

3132
03:10:46,040 --> 03:10:46,960
I don't know.
Isn't it?

3133
03:10:47,160 --> 03:10:49,920
It's northward.
Northward.

3134
03:10:50,640 --> 03:10:53,960
I'm saying that's W than north
if I'm using my cardinal

3135
03:10:53,960 --> 03:10:56,680
directions.
If I hold this up and crank it,

3136
03:10:56,720 --> 03:10:59,520
that's more W than North in my
opinion.

3137
03:10:59,720 --> 03:11:08,120
That is not 40�� far 45��.
It's close, but I would imagine

3138
03:11:08,120 --> 03:11:10,520
they would call it northward
because if they call it westward

3139
03:11:10,520 --> 03:11:13,280
it would take him into the sea
and the land doesn't go.

3140
03:11:14,440 --> 03:11:18,040
My thought is you have a lot of
land to the north from the land

3141
03:11:18,040 --> 03:11:21,520
of Nephi, if this is the model
that you could have called the

3142
03:11:21,520 --> 03:11:26,800
land northward, right?
To me, it makes sense if you're

3143
03:11:26,800 --> 03:11:30,000
trying to describe something.
And again, I want to say I have

3144
03:11:30,000 --> 03:11:33,680
21st century eyes, right?
Yeah, I would.

3145
03:11:33,680 --> 03:11:39,640
I would say that you would
describe that way more westerly

3146
03:11:39,640 --> 03:11:43,640
than than North.
Oh man, I don't know if we can

3147
03:11:43,640 --> 03:11:46,120
be friends anymore.
I'm really upset by this.

3148
03:11:46,120 --> 03:11:51,200
It's all right, I run off all
the good people I understand.

3149
03:11:53,400 --> 03:12:00,800
You know, they actually had the
then an LDS archaeologist make

3150
03:12:02,320 --> 03:12:05,400
an expedition to the Tutsla
Mountains.

3151
03:12:05,680 --> 03:12:09,120
OK.
But clearly they're far too

3152
03:12:09,120 --> 03:12:10,760
large for him to make any real
dent.

3153
03:12:11,160 --> 03:12:13,440
But he didn't find it.
He didn't find The Cave.

3154
03:12:13,440 --> 03:12:18,560
But it would have been nice.
He's the same guy who explored

3155
03:12:18,560 --> 03:12:22,360
Bountiful in the the Old World.
And and look, I want to

3156
03:12:22,360 --> 03:12:26,480
reiterate just ideas at this
point, right?

3157
03:12:26,560 --> 03:12:29,000
Oh yeah.
If I find if tomorrow someone's

3158
03:12:29,000 --> 03:12:33,560
digging around the sea E that
should really be like.

3159
03:12:34,480 --> 03:12:38,280
The sea N yeah.
And that's probably the worst

3160
03:12:38,280 --> 03:12:41,320
one, yeah.
If if, if, if they find, you

3161
03:12:41,320 --> 03:12:43,800
know, if they found that smoking
gun there, right?

3162
03:12:44,120 --> 03:12:46,600
Hey, here's here's where the
records are.

3163
03:12:46,720 --> 03:12:48,840
They're all right here.
I'm going to be like, you know

3164
03:12:48,840 --> 03:12:51,680
what I got I got my model wrong.
You.

3165
03:12:51,920 --> 03:12:55,080
Know what you I need to call Ken
right now and get it on my knees

3166
03:12:55,080 --> 03:12:57,000
and plead for mercy.
I will.

3167
03:12:57,040 --> 03:12:59,760
I will.
I'll be like Ken once again.

3168
03:12:59,800 --> 03:13:02,920
Again, if you're a guy who's
used to being as wrong as I am

3169
03:13:02,920 --> 03:13:06,040
as often as I am, it's really
not that big of a deal.

3170
03:13:06,320 --> 03:13:08,640
I mean, we're all wrong at
times.

3171
03:13:11,200 --> 03:13:12,960
What would be a smoking gun for
you?

3172
03:13:16,960 --> 03:13:18,680
It's hard to say in these
matters.

3173
03:13:18,680 --> 03:13:25,360
I would say this because I
haven't, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty

3174
03:13:25,360 --> 03:13:30,120
convinced on the heartland model
with some nuance, right?

3175
03:13:30,120 --> 03:13:40,400
Again, as I've said, I would say
something that would would be

3176
03:13:40,400 --> 03:13:45,240
beyond much debate, right?
Like even if you were to show me

3177
03:13:47,920 --> 03:13:52,640
something of the white bearded
God around with 12 men as they

3178
03:13:52,640 --> 03:13:56,160
break bread, you know, a hack.
Yeah, Yeah, something like that,

3179
03:13:56,160 --> 03:13:59,400
something that I'm like that
would be really hard to get

3180
03:13:59,400 --> 03:14:02,400
around.
That to me would be my smoking

3181
03:14:02,400 --> 03:14:05,560
gun, right?
Or if somebody finds a city

3182
03:14:05,560 --> 03:14:10,200
tomorrow that says now entering
Zarahemla, population 1.5

3183
03:14:10,200 --> 03:14:12,960
million, right?
I think I think that.

3184
03:14:13,160 --> 03:14:16,880
That would be cool.
At that point I'd be like, Yep,

3185
03:14:17,160 --> 03:14:22,240
Yep, OK, I was wrong that.
But in the absence of that and

3186
03:14:22,320 --> 03:14:24,320
and I want to be fair too,
right.

3187
03:14:24,800 --> 03:14:29,080
There's holes on the on the on
the, the, the Heartland model,

3188
03:14:29,200 --> 03:14:30,920
right.
I'm not I'm not going to say

3189
03:14:30,920 --> 03:14:34,520
that there's not holes there.
It's just I suppose it depends

3190
03:14:34,520 --> 03:14:40,440
largely upon how you value
certain types of evidences,

3191
03:14:40,640 --> 03:14:41,880
right.
Yeah.

3192
03:14:42,440 --> 03:14:46,600
And you know, as a guy who who
puts a lot of stock into what

3193
03:14:46,600 --> 03:14:51,480
Joseph says and what's what
scripture has said, I find for

3194
03:14:51,480 --> 03:14:55,000
me that the preponderance of
evidence tends to point more

3195
03:14:55,000 --> 03:14:57,920
towards North America.
But again, I'm willing to be

3196
03:14:57,920 --> 03:15:01,840
wrong.
OK, before I forget.

3197
03:15:02,200 --> 03:15:06,560
Yes.
Previously I forget what we were

3198
03:15:06,560 --> 03:15:10,760
talking about last time and I
mentioned that if anybody wanted

3199
03:15:10,760 --> 03:15:13,720
APDF copy of my book, I'd be
happy to send it to them.

3200
03:15:14,000 --> 03:15:15,360
Yes.
Recharge.

3201
03:15:15,720 --> 03:15:17,960
That was awesome.
I had a few nice people.

3202
03:15:17,960 --> 03:15:21,000
Very kind and very considerate.
I was very happy to send it to.

3203
03:15:21,520 --> 03:15:26,280
It occurs to me that any of
these visits that you and I have

3204
03:15:27,120 --> 03:15:31,360
and the the visuals of, of, of
my slide presentation, it's in

3205
03:15:31,360 --> 03:15:36,960
APDF format.
If anybody wants the slides or

3206
03:15:36,960 --> 03:15:40,240
any of these talks that we have,
I'll be happy to send them that

3207
03:15:40,240 --> 03:15:43,160
PDF file.
Very happy to.

3208
03:15:43,520 --> 03:15:48,040
Do that is such a great offer.
Thank you and and look, I'm glad

3209
03:15:48,040 --> 03:15:53,080
that that the audience is is is
as kind as what they are, but

3210
03:15:53,880 --> 03:15:56,320
that's kind of what I've come to
expect from this audience.

3211
03:15:56,320 --> 03:16:00,280
They're, you know, I, I really
do have a good group that is

3212
03:16:02,000 --> 03:16:03,920
that that are, are, are good
folks.

3213
03:16:03,920 --> 03:16:06,600
They really are so.
That's what I get.

3214
03:16:06,840 --> 03:16:09,760
Except except for a couple guys
who like to troll me every time.

3215
03:16:09,760 --> 03:16:13,760
But like I said, I'm just
banking all that's going into a

3216
03:16:13,760 --> 03:16:15,480
book one day.
So if you're going to insult me,

3217
03:16:15,480 --> 03:16:17,880
come with some fire.
I I want some fire.

3218
03:16:18,080 --> 03:16:20,760
I want some wit.
I, you know this is going to go

3219
03:16:20,760 --> 03:16:23,440
into publication someday.
So put your A game on son.

3220
03:16:24,760 --> 03:16:29,880
So what in terms of the geology
cities, which we're man, that

3221
03:16:29,880 --> 03:16:31,600
lighter stuff is amazing that
killed.

3222
03:16:31,600 --> 03:16:34,920
Me, dude, I'll, I'll tell you
what, there's, there's stuff

3223
03:16:34,920 --> 03:16:40,200
Sorensen has found that that
deserves consideration, serious

3224
03:16:40,200 --> 03:16:44,000
consideration, because there,
there are things there that that

3225
03:16:44,000 --> 03:16:50,480
seem to be to be fits, you know,
bull's eyes, if you will, but.

3226
03:16:51,880 --> 03:16:54,760
That last slide was cool.
Yeah, Yeah.

3227
03:16:54,760 --> 03:16:59,760
Atitlan and Summa Baj as as
Summa.

3228
03:16:59,760 --> 03:17:06,000
Bah, that's what it is.
The Sorenson 10 years in advance

3229
03:17:06,000 --> 03:17:09,240
to say, yeah, right under there.
You're going to find an ancient

3230
03:17:09,240 --> 03:17:10,400
city.
And lo and behold.

3231
03:17:10,440 --> 03:17:11,920
They did.
He did it.

3232
03:17:12,000 --> 03:17:13,560
Yep.
How do you do that?

3233
03:17:13,600 --> 03:17:15,520
Man, that's crazy.
Yep.

3234
03:17:15,800 --> 03:17:18,200
No, he definitely put some work
into his model.

3235
03:17:18,520 --> 03:17:23,840
There it is.
Man, so dude, this was fun.

3236
03:17:23,840 --> 03:17:27,840
I'm so glad that we did this.
Me too, me too.

3237
03:17:27,840 --> 03:17:30,680
I I hope the listeners are able
to stick with us.

3238
03:17:31,640 --> 03:17:33,080
That's a lot.
Oh my gosh.

3239
03:17:33,120 --> 03:17:35,240
I put it together and I thought
I don't think we can get it all

3240
03:17:35,240 --> 03:17:38,240
done in one, but we did so.
We did, we did.

3241
03:17:38,920 --> 03:17:41,680
You're a smart guy.
You you always come prepared and

3242
03:17:41,680 --> 03:17:45,160
ready to go.
So it never we usually get

3243
03:17:45,160 --> 03:17:48,520
through stuff.
This is the, this is the biggest

3244
03:17:48,520 --> 03:17:50,480
one I think we've done.
I mean, covering the most

3245
03:17:50,480 --> 03:17:53,120
material.
It was it was daunting.

3246
03:17:53,120 --> 03:17:55,280
But every time I get a chance
to.

3247
03:17:56,920 --> 03:17:59,720
And most of this stuff I've been
familiar with and it's kind of

3248
03:17:59,720 --> 03:18:02,320
governed my thinking.
But when you put it all

3249
03:18:02,320 --> 03:18:04,880
together, put a big fat bow on
it like this.

3250
03:18:05,400 --> 03:18:08,640
Oh, yeah.
It's every single time.

3251
03:18:08,640 --> 03:18:13,200
It is stunning to me the
truthfulness of this crazy Book

3252
03:18:13,200 --> 03:18:17,000
of Mormon.
Yeah, no, it's, it's true, Ken.

3253
03:18:17,000 --> 03:18:22,560
I mean, look, if you're looking
for evidence that's out there,

3254
03:18:22,560 --> 03:18:26,400
and I suppose this is a good
time to say this too, don't be

3255
03:18:26,400 --> 03:18:28,680
afraid to go out and get your
hands dirty a little bit.

3256
03:18:30,920 --> 03:18:35,200
If you're a Mesoamerican guy,
put in the time to to research

3257
03:18:35,200 --> 03:18:37,640
the stuff and maybe even take a
trip down there, right?

3258
03:18:37,880 --> 03:18:40,040
If you're a Heartland guy, it's
close.

3259
03:18:40,280 --> 03:18:42,560
Go look, go see what you can
find.

3260
03:18:43,000 --> 03:18:45,480
There's there's groups and
organizations out there that

3261
03:18:45,560 --> 03:18:47,640
that are always looking for the
help on this stuff.

3262
03:18:48,120 --> 03:18:51,680
Who's doing the Lidar on across
the river from Nah?

3263
03:18:51,720 --> 03:18:53,560
Who was that?
Neville or May?

3264
03:18:54,880 --> 03:18:57,800
I can't remember.
I want to say it was May but I

3265
03:18:57,800 --> 03:19:00,120
might be wrong.
I haven't seen any.

3266
03:19:00,800 --> 03:19:03,120
I was kind of excited for the
the results for that and I

3267
03:19:03,120 --> 03:19:05,680
haven't seen anything so.
I haven't heard anything either.

3268
03:19:05,680 --> 03:19:09,120
I'll have to have to reach out
and check a couple of contacts

3269
03:19:09,120 --> 03:19:12,440
on that, but really I don't
spend a ton of time thinking

3270
03:19:12,440 --> 03:19:16,840
about this.
I spend too much time.

3271
03:19:16,880 --> 03:19:19,240
Thinking about it, no, it's
good.

3272
03:19:19,960 --> 03:19:22,480
Well, you can come on and talk
to someone who's way less

3273
03:19:22,480 --> 03:19:28,600
educated, like myself, whatever.
But all right, Ken, it was fun,

3274
03:19:28,600 --> 03:19:30,280
dude.
We'll, we'll do it again.

3275
03:19:30,800 --> 03:19:32,440
Thanks as always.
All right.

3276
03:19:32,720 --> 03:19:34,320
Thanks.
Bye everybody.

3277
03:20:05,040 --> 03:20:07,840
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

Episode #182: Book of Mormon Geography-The Mesoamerican Model W/Ken Peterson

Listen On

Recent Episodes

Support On