Episode #190: The 1886 Revelation-The Theological Implications for Orthodox Mormons & The LDS Church W/Michael Ness

1
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:42,000
The you're listening to the
Mormon renegade podcast, dude,

2
00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,240
big couple weeks in in the old
fundy world.

3
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:47,320
That's that's.
That's true.

4
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,840
So I I got a question, where
were you when all this went

5
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:51,200
down?
Well.

6
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,040
Probably doesn't work.
And then the community Telegram

7
00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:01,040
chat blew up and you, you know,
the church is released, right?

8
00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,880
The revelation of John Taylor,
September.

9
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,440
I think it's dated 27th in this
Yes, 1886.

10
00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,080
Yep, Yep.
The ramifications of this are

11
00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,960
huge, right?
And I didn't, I didn't want to

12
00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:20,680
put Christina in an awkward
position because even though she

13
00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,560
knows her stuff and she probably
could speak to what it means

14
00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:28,480
theologically, I think that's
most definitely, though,

15
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,520
reserved for people who are in
the religion a little bit,

16
00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,400
right?
Because we're going to get to

17
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,080
define how big of a deal this
is.

18
00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,680
I feel like Christina really
laid out the case for the

19
00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:45,040
history and really laid out a
good framework, but we didn't

20
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,760
cover what it means
theologically for us as Mormons,

21
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,400
right?
We could talk about it in terms

22
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,720
of it definitely gives
validation, but that's a little

23
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,240
bit different than than
something else.

24
00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,320
So what do you make of it?
Well, I think we know where I

25
00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,080
stand with that.
But what's been interesting to

26
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,520
me is what I have noticed on
social media is it's been

27
00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:15,120
completely it's it's been this
huge broadside to people in the

28
00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,160
church because the anti Mormons
have gone and taken hold of

29
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,640
this.
Really, it's look, this, this is

30
00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:24,240
authentic.
What do you do with this?

31
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,360
And they're like, well, it was
never presented to the church as

32
00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,960
a revelation of vote, therefore
it's not binding or whatever.

33
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,040
Or are we sure that's real?
But I mean, the church is now

34
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,240
admitting it, right?
So they cope with that.

35
00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,960
But yeah, there's still some
dissonance there, right?

36
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,160
And that's what we're here to
talk about a little bit because

37
00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,200
this, this is not going away
now.

38
00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:52,000
No new answers might come, new
ways for them to address it,

39
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,480
which I don't know what that
will look like.

40
00:02:54,440 --> 00:03:01,760
We'll probably come forward.
Yeah, the the thing that look,

41
00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,880
and I'm just going to call it
like I see it here and, and, and

42
00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:10,320
heads up for anybody out there
listening, it's I'm going to get

43
00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:15,600
probably a little spicy here in
some moments because there's a

44
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,520
principle that says you can only
be judged on the knowledge you

45
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:22,800
have, right, Right.
And what did this do?

46
00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:28,480
Well, let's go back and just
look at the history, right?

47
00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:33,400
Temple changes, changes to the
garment, changes to doctrine.

48
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:39,760
And now there's this.
And so for those folks, and this

49
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:45,760
doesn't come from a place of
anger or, or resentment or

50
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,000
anything like this.
This comes from a place of

51
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:52,600
concern because the theological
ground on which you stand now to

52
00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:58,280
defend the church is shrinking.
There is less Gray area to

53
00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,880
inhabit.
And we're going to lay out some

54
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:06,040
things tonight that I think are
super important, and we'll work

55
00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,400
our way back to the 1886
revelation.

56
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,800
But for this conversation
starting out, I want to talk

57
00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,840
about what apostasy is and what
apostasy looks like.

58
00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,279
And can it happen to to the LDS
church?

59
00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,840
Right I, I look.
Apparently not.

60
00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:25,760
No, you can't.
No, that can never happen.

61
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,520
Yeah, right.
There's some things that I see

62
00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,440
that, quite frankly, are going
along with.

63
00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,280
Yay yay, all is well in Zion.
No, yeah, it totally does.

64
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,120
You know, there's a there's one
or two statements that generally

65
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,320
get referred to from Joseph
Smith are attributed to him ones

66
00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:49,640
called like a key that will
never rest whatever.

67
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:55,640
Well, the earliest citation for
that's like in 19 O 9 and like a

68
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,240
young woman's exponent journal.
Explain to everyone because

69
00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,480
where a lot of people might not
be familiar with.

70
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,560
That I don't remember exactly
which one it is, but it's

71
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,640
basically like this.
This church will never be going

72
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,400
to apostasy or the leaders will
never lead us astray.

73
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:12,800
And it's basically the modus
opera operandi of the church

74
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,720
today being applied to Joseph
Smith, right?

75
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,680
But there's no early source for
it, like it appears out of a

76
00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,640
reminiscence.
I have something written on

77
00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:23,880
this.
I don't remember the guy's name,

78
00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:25,680
but he puts it in the journal in
19 O 9.

79
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,240
But the big one, the really big
one, the big smoking gun to me

80
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,160
is Wilfred Woodruff's journal.
It's like March 10th, 1843 or

81
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,440
whatever that date could be
wrong, but there's a everyone's

82
00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,800
heard it before which any man
who criticizes the leaders of

83
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,360
the church while saying that he,
you know that he is right, that

84
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,600
man is on the High Road to
apostasy.

85
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,760
You know, no for no for a
certainty though, that man so on

86
00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,360
the High Road to apostasy and
will apostatize if he does not

87
00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:57,000
repent, right?
Well, that whole phrase is

88
00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,360
omitted like so it's taken from
Wolfer Woodruff's journal.

89
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,480
That whole phrase I just
paraphrased, it's not in there.

90
00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:05,320
It's not.
No, it's not Joseph.

91
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,360
So it's in the teachings of the
Prophet Joseph Smith.

92
00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:11,560
And so that's like the tack on
to the end of a statement where

93
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:15,080
Joseph says, I think it, I think
it's actually the first page

94
00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:19,800
when you're going to TPJS and
you get into the year 1843, OK.

95
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:21,640
And it's like the first page or
second page.

96
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:29,440
And, and Joseph's saying, O ye
Saints, O ye 12, be careful that

97
00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,240
you do not betray the
revelations that God has given,

98
00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,600
whether it's in the Bible, the
Book of Mormon, or in the

99
00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,800
Doctrine Covenants or any other
revelation that God himself will

100
00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,560
give.
And the way that the Joseph the

101
00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:46,480
the the TPJS reads after that is
do not betray the brethren.

102
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:48,960
And then like the rest that we
talked about, right.

103
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,400
Well, it does not say in the
Wolf of Woodruff original do not

104
00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,200
betray the brethren.
It talks about how the 12 and

105
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,600
the Saints should not betray any
of those revelations we just

106
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,760
mentioned.
Do not betray your brethren, not

107
00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:09,400
the brethren, not the brethren.
Do not betray your brethren and

108
00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,920
things along those lines.
But the rest of that about the

109
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,960
High Road to apostasy and
criticizing the leaders of the

110
00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,560
church while saying that you
were in the right.

111
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,440
That's not in there.
That's not in there.

112
00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,320
Totally.
And so that's what gets quoted

113
00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,880
right all the time.
It's this big more of an

114
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,720
apocrypha of how you can't even
breathe a word of

115
00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,840
dissatisfaction with the way
that the church leaders are are

116
00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:34,280
operating.
Otherwise, you're on the High

117
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:40,320
Road to apostasy.
You know that's there is a lot

118
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,800
to unpack in that.
It is because the, you know, and

119
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:45,120
they're, they say that's this
key that will never rust.

120
00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,480
Well, the real key that will
never rust is don't betray the

121
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,920
revelations that God has given,
whether it's in the Book of

122
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,120
Mormon, the Bible, the Doctrine
of Covenants, or any other

123
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,720
revelation that God has given
which fits with the topic.

124
00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,080
So so in so I I want to make
sure I'm understanding correctly

125
00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,720
the the real the real quote that
Joseph gives doesn't.

126
00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,200
I'm guessing probably the words
of Joseph Smith.

127
00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:08,640
Right, I'll just pull it up
right now.

128
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,760
Yeah, let's find.
I'll find the original right

129
00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,840
now.
Yeah, I and I got a copy of both

130
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,520
the TPJS and the words of Joseph
Smith.

131
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,440
Right.
And so it would be in the words

132
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,120
of Joseph Smith in the as it is
in the Wolford Woodruff Journal,

133
00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:22,440
right.
OK, I don't remember what page

134
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,240
it's on.
No, that's fine as long as you

135
00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,520
can find it.
I can find the horses later.

136
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,800
But I actually have the words on
PDF, so that's actually the way

137
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:42,600
to to look for it.
How much later does the TPJS

138
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:44,520
come after?
1938.

139
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,800
That's interesting, right?
Make sure you get out of out of

140
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,040
that pesky 1890 to 1833 time
frame.

141
00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,320
Right, right, right.
Let's see.

142
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:20,160
OK, O ye 12 And All Saints,
profit by this important key,

143
00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,920
that in all your trials and
troubles and temptations and

144
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,880
afflictions, bonds, imprisonment
and death, see to it that you do

145
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,640
not betray heaven, that you do
not betray Jesus Christ, that

146
00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,560
you do not betray your brethren,
and that you do not betray the

147
00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:36,600
revelations of God, whether in
the Bible, the Book of Mormon,

148
00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,240
or the Doctrine of Covenants, or
any of the Word of God.

149
00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,720
Yeah, in all your kicking and
your floundering, see to it that

150
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:48,920
you do not do this thing lest
innocent blood be found on your

151
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,000
skirts and you go down to hell.
We may ever know by this sign

152
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,600
that there is a danger of our
being led to a fall and apostasy

153
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,640
when we give way to the devil,
so as to neglect the first known

154
00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,040
duty.
But whatever you do, do not

155
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,240
betray your friend.
And so they took that Do not

156
00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,360
betray your friend, and they
turned it into do not betray the

157
00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,040
brethren.
And anyone who speaks about the

158
00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:15,680
brethren is on the High Road to
apostasy.

159
00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:18,040
Unless you're a pest, right?
That's interesting, right?

160
00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,320
Because what the what the the
way that I believe you know, as

161
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,920
you just quoted it, it lends
itself to this idea that, hey,

162
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,840
as long as you follow the
brethren, you're OK, right?

163
00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,600
You're you're opposite.
It's follow the revelations.

164
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,440
But it's OK, opposite and Joseph
actually gives, if I heard you

165
00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,160
correctly in there actually
says, Oh no, we could fall, we

166
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:45,040
could fall, right understand
that that it's not a guarantee

167
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:47,520
that you just stick with the
brethren and you're OK.

168
00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,440
In all your kicking and
floundering so your trials, see

169
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,480
to it that you do not this thing
meaning rebelling against the OR

170
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,480
rejecting the revelations
wherever they're found, lest you

171
00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,480
find blood on your skirts and go
down to hell.

172
00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,920
We may ever know by this sign
that there is a danger of our

173
00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,200
being led to a fall and
apostasy.

174
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,960
Yeah, so that guarantee really
doesn't exist.

175
00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,600
No, it doesn't exist.
There's other statements, I

176
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,200
couldn't quote it off the top of
my head that said the priesthood

177
00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,760
won't be restored for another
for again, you know, but there's

178
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:23,160
no, the only thing we really
have to hang our hat on or that

179
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:27,720
the those are the opposite point
of view from us that have to

180
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,320
hang their hat on is these two
statements, the alleged from

181
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,480
Joseph Smith and then Wolford
Woodruff's statement in 1890.

182
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:41,600
Or it's actually N18901 talking
about how after the manifesto,

183
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,080
how the Lord would never allow
the man at the head of the

184
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,760
church to lead the Saints astray
and he would remove them, right?

185
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:51,760
Those are really the pillars of
this ideology and was not the

186
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,760
fairly late development for, you
know, a theological idea, Right,

187
00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,400
Right.
Introduced into Mormonism, 1891.

188
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,480
Right.
The the other thing I'll say is

189
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,080
that it has not stopped right?
There is footage of Dallin H

190
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,520
Oaks out there saying that as
long as you if if you do what

191
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,600
the brethren tells you, and even
if it's wrong, you're going to

192
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:12,400
be blessed for it.
Right.

193
00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,360
And I think Grant was also
another one in the early days,

194
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,840
who or 1930s, nineteen 20s,
whatever, who kind of coined

195
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:20,520
that thing?
You know that term, right?

196
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,040
Like follow your file leader,
follow your brother and if it's

197
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,040
or follow your yeah, follow the
prophet.

198
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,720
And even if it's wrong, you'll
be blessed for it because you

199
00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:35,440
followed their counsel, right?
That's dangerous, right?

200
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,400
That it's extremely dangerous.
Not only is it dangerous

201
00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:46,600
spiritually, but every dictator
in the world wants that kind of

202
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,280
power.
It's true.

203
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,800
Every single one wants the
ability to say, just follow me,

204
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,760
don't don't worry about anything
else.

205
00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,520
And let's let's get down to
brass tacks here.

206
00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:04,200
Would that not fit the very
definition of putting your arm

207
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,200
in your trust in the arm of
flesh?

208
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,680
Sure.
I mean, I can't think of a

209
00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,760
better scenario on that.
And I'm not against leadership,

210
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:13,640
right?
Nor am I.

211
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:15,360
Right.
Or, or I should say, the

212
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,840
principle of leadership, right?
Or a righteous leader.

213
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,200
I am not opposed to that.
But unfortunately, up to this

214
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,240
point, I don't see Joseph or
Brigham hanging out anywhere at

215
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:30,240
the moment, Right, Which means
that that has to fall to us as

216
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,000
individuals sure to fill that
gap.

217
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:37,080
It does.
It does fall to us so.

218
00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,640
Is there anywhere in scripture
that talks about this church

219
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:49,320
fall the LDS church into?
Apostasy one I can think of off

220
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,320
the top of my head, see if I can
find it real quick.

221
00:13:53,320 --> 00:14:00,120
But if it to the audience, if
you've ever heard of something

222
00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,640
called Nephi's list, I highly
recommend you get that because

223
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,960
it kind of lays out some of what
we're talking about here.

224
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,400
I have a really weird copy here
and so.

225
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:10,520
The pages no.
No, no.

226
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:19,600
Maybe that'll help, actually.
So Moroni writing in the Book of

227
00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,520
Mormon, like the Book of Mormon
in the Book of Mormon chapter 8

228
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:30,400
verse 34 and 35, Moroni tell
tells us that Christ has shown

229
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,200
him great and marvelous things
pertaining to the day when which

230
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:34,960
we now live.
You know the audience.

231
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,000
Moroni knows who his audience is
going to be right.

232
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,720
He says I have seen your day.
And I think he talks about how

233
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,600
he would weep or does weep
because he's our day.

234
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,880
And so he sets up this context,
speaking to the it's like

235
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,800
breaking the 4th wall, right?
And in this moment of clarity,

236
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,880
you know, or piercing the veil,
so to speak, piercing the

237
00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,160
future.
Moroni says, you know, at the

238
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,960
end of chapter 8, you know, OE
pollutions, OE hypocrites, you

239
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,640
know, you teachers who sell
yourselves for that which will

240
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,560
canker, why have you polluted
the holy Church of God?

241
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,880
So members of the church will
read that and they're like, oh,

242
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:22,000
he's talking about the the great
apostasy after Christ, you know,

243
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,160
set up his church over there in
the old world and then died and

244
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,760
was resurrected.
And after the apostles were all

245
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:31,920
killed off, then they
apostatized slowly, right?

246
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,200
Like that's where their mind
goes.

247
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,360
How Why would you pollute the
holy Church of God?

248
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,360
But he had already established,
I'm talking to the audience who

249
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:40,200
was going to read the Book of
Mormon, right?

250
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,160
Why will you pollute the Holy
Church of God?

251
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:43,200
And what?
What?

252
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,920
Where was that again?
This is page 6 in the in the

253
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,480
scripture.
Oh, this is Mormon 8, verse 38.

254
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:53,400
Mormon 838 OK.
Was that verse?

255
00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,480
I yeah, I want, this is what's
interesting, right?

256
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,960
And and look, I'm going to make
a generalization here and it's

257
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:07,360
something that I have fallen
into.

258
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,440
I don't want want to make it
seem like I'm a, a bread for

259
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,120
approach here, but this is
certainly something that I have

260
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,040
fallen into.
And I, I find it happening a lot

261
00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,000
with some, some of our brethren
and, and sisters all over the

262
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,760
restoration, right.
There's this idea that, yes, the

263
00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,160
book of Mormons for our day and
it speaks to us.

264
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,160
Unless it's the uncomfortable
things, right?

265
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,120
Then it can't be talking about
us.

266
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:35,680
Right.
We're second, yes, second Nephi

267
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,920
29 and stuff where it talks
about, you know, not really not

268
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,240
being willing to receive
revelation or all these other

269
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,640
things like, oh, God will beat
you with a few stripes.

270
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,680
But after that, then you'll pass
into heaven and all sorts of

271
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,600
things that kind of resemble,
right, us today.

272
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,480
Yeah.
Yeah, and and we don't, we don't

273
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,320
want to pick up on it because it
hurts right it.

274
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,200
Does hurt.
It's all it's dissonant.

275
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,280
It's like this huge cognitive
dissonance because we can't be.

276
00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,400
Apostasy and, and, and I want to
make this clear.

277
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,560
And there's other scriptures
that we're going to get to here.

278
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,119
There is no middle ground here,
right?

279
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:20,599
You cannot, you cannot say the
church is just doing marvelous

280
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:24,560
and and there's no problems and
then have in the Doctrine and

281
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,440
Covenants where it says and they
will say yay, yay, all is well

282
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,080
in Zion.
There's no middle ground there

283
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,080
to be had right now.
Can people be righteous?

284
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,160
Sure, sure.
Can people do the best they can?

285
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,520
Absolutely.
But I think we better be careful

286
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,640
here, right?
That we're not just ascribing a

287
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:52,440
blanket of infallibility to the
organization.

288
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,520
That's exactly what we've done,
in my opinion.

289
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:08,120
So if you recall also Christ
restores his church in the new

290
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:12,640
world, you know, in Bountiful,
at his advent at the Nephi

291
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:19,440
temple in Bountiful.
And we see in Fourth Nephi by

292
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,080
that point, right, that that
church is beginning to be broken

293
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,440
up and dissolved.
Now Nephi's list here, it's

294
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,480
actually fairly interesting that
the church among the Nephites

295
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:36,240
breaks up twice in and each
lasts about 167 or in one

296
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,640
instance it lasts 167 years,
which is from Alma's church

297
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,480
being established, presumably at
the waters of Mormon until it

298
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:54,640
being destroyed or dissolved in
34AD or 30, yeah, 34 AD because

299
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,480
of secret combinations and
apostasy and things and the

300
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,960
government also being destroyed.
So that's 167 years.

301
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,160
And then after Christ comes back
and sets it up with 12 new

302
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:10,040
disciples, it lasts 176 years
until in fourth Nephites

303
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,320
apostate again.
Well, this is what Hugh Nibley

304
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,960
had to say about this trend or
the trend that the these

305
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,920
churches follow and whether or
not this the shoe fits with the

306
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,120
LDS churches for the audience to
to decide to decide.

307
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:30,640
Yeah, talking about Fourth
Nephi, verse 27.

308
00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:33,280
And here we see that the new
churches retain their

309
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,160
traditions.
Of course, they were not seeking

310
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,400
to be original.
They claimed to be the old true

311
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,360
church.
We were in Fourth Nephi 127.

312
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,440
There are many churches which
profess to know the Christ, and

313
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,760
yet they did deny the more parts
of His gospel.

314
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:49,440
They took some parts, they kept
key parts, or sorry, they kept

315
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,400
parts of the gospel, but they
got rid of others that they

316
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,160
didn't like.
Well, we do the we do that the

317
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,040
same way.
They did deny the more parts of

318
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,960
His gospel in so much that they
did receive all manner of

319
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,360
wickedness, and they went
further than that.

320
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,320
They had the gospel.
They denied most of it though,

321
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,240
but they still had the forms and
the ordinances and they

322
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,000
administered them.
They professed to know the

323
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,200
Christ.
They accommodated their

324
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,280
doctrines to the market.
They supplied temple recommends

325
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,600
on demand.
It was very popular.

326
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,080
The new church grew phenomenally
as a result of this.

327
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,840
Remember, this is the church
we're talking about.

328
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,000
This is not apostates.
Give them what they want and

329
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,840
you'll win.
This is the Nihor story already.

330
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,120
Remember, the Nihor grew like
crazy.

331
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:40,360
We do that today as well.
Of course, verse 28 also teaches

332
00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:43,000
another thing, that the
phenomenal growth of the church

333
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,400
is no proof that it is true at
all, or that is on that it is on

334
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:51,280
the that it is on the true path.
It grew faster than anything

335
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,600
because it was very popular.
So don't use popularity as a

336
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,600
gauge either.
That's fascinating because just

337
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,120
a few weeks ago the church came
out and it look, in my opinion,

338
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,520
I think it's one of those things
where you can say you can make

339
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,520
numbers say anything, right?
Yeah.

340
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:15,160
But it just came out a few weeks
ago that the the churches in

341
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,400
another growth spurt, right, or
convert baptisms are off the

342
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:20,680
chart.
They're doing great again.

343
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,480
Yeah, How's retention going?
But how's retention, especially

344
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,760
in Utah?
The whole right?

345
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,000
Right.
Where's how's retention doing?

346
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:30,760
Right.
And if you want to use Africa as

347
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,760
your home base of growth, that's
fine.

348
00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,680
But let's make sure we count
growth after they're done with

349
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,280
the Pathways program because I
do my homework and I've looked

350
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,880
at it several times and guess
what?

351
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:47,160
Once that's done and those folks
are on to getting a job, guess

352
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,720
what happens?
Retention is gone.

353
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,000
Retention dissipates.
Interesting.

354
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,840
OK, so don't.
And look, I am glad that the

355
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,200
church is offering free
education of people.

356
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,200
I think they should.
I would much rather see that

357
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,840
than to build a great and
spacious building right across

358
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:13,480
the street from where the temple
says built up to get gain and.

359
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:16,880
Thinking of a particular
building and.

360
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,200
Yeah, I'm talking City Creek,
right?

361
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,080
That building, the one that
seems to set up in the air where

362
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,600
there's all manner of fine
apparel and dress.

363
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,440
I follow you.
Let's let's call a spade a spade

364
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,360
here a little bit.
I've been very gentle up to this

365
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:36,560
point, but I'm just about done.
Sure.

366
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,720
I figured you probably had
something in mind.

367
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:46,640
We're just getting started too,
but I would much rather see them

368
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,200
dig wells.
I want to see them help with

369
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:50,400
education.
How they?

370
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,600
Should they?
Should they?

371
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,360
You know, I wonder, besides the,
you know, Gen.

372
00:22:54,360 --> 00:22:57,480
Z and Jen, a kids coming up in
Utah, you know, who would come

373
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,560
from rich families and then get
to be social media influencers.

374
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,080
And those are the only people
probably that are going to have

375
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,280
the demographic, you know,
demographically who are going to

376
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,120
be able to afford their own
houses in Utah.

377
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:11,040
Yeah.
My generation's struggling like

378
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,680
crazy.
Yeah.

379
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,520
You know, And the church has the
means to fix that.

380
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,840
Yes, today, today, today.
And not just the church itself,

381
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,760
but members of the Church of an
older generation.

382
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,360
But they're too busy spending
their money on themselves.

383
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,040
Right.
And that's another big critique

384
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,440
when you go to the Book of
Mormon about the pride cycle,

385
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,360
right?
Absolutely.

386
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:37,880
How much does Utah look like the
Nephite nation at certain times?

387
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,440
A lot.
Yeah, a lot.

388
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,080
I mean, it is, it is a
continuing pattern.

389
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,920
And look, let's talk about the
money for a minute, right?

390
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,640
I certainly do not like
honestly, when I hear the church

391
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,080
is hiding money my my knee jerk
reaction, my surface level

392
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,800
reaction is like.
Good.

393
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,640
Yeah, like, like because we
don't like the government.

394
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,200
No, we don't like the government
either, right?

395
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,920
I mean, it's and, and again,
that's not to say I don't think

396
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:09,600
government is necessary, I do.
But I think, you know, the

397
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,800
spending is out of control,
right.

398
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,120
And so I'm kind of like, well,
whose hands would I rather have

399
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:17,400
that in?
Yeah, I'd rather have it in the

400
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,960
probably the church, right.
I mean, if, if you're going to

401
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,160
put a gun to my head, I'll go
that direction.

402
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:28,840
However, look at the numbers.
There was just a study that came

403
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,480
out a few years ago and said if
the church stopped collecting

404
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:36,600
tithing or any other revenue
building right now, they could

405
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,960
sustain the church at its
current growth for the next 100

406
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,200
years off interest payments
alone.

407
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,200
Yeah, at that point, it's time
to build Zion.

408
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,080
Why are you stopping?
Right.

409
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,480
I mean, look.
You you have the ability to

410
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,920
start creating a system where
there's no rich and no poor.

411
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,560
Right, right.
And I'm not a socialist.

412
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,160
That doesn't mean a classless,
stateless society to me, right?

413
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,320
We, I don't know if we want to
go there, but still the

414
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,240
revelation says that's what Zion
is.

415
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:07,760
Yep.
No rich and no poor.

416
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,480
Yes, and the church has ample
ability to do it.

417
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,280
But just a few weeks ago the
Widow's Mite came out and said

418
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,840
there's more shell companies.
There is problems there.

419
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:26,160
Things are not well in Zion thus
far, and this isn't new.

420
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,600
It's not new, no.
The the Book of Mormon taught,

421
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,080
you know, Even so it's not
emphatic like Moro, Moro and I

422
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,080
talking right, which we covered,
but the Book of Mormon itself

423
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:41,760
from the very premise from the
very get go illustrates a very

424
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,560
important thing.
Lehi is fleeing Jerusalem.

425
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,200
Why?
Because they're seeking after

426
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,680
his life.
They they want to kill him.

427
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,280
Who's seeking after his life?
The people the the religious

428
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,200
people of the day.
Because of what?

429
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,880
Because he's telling them you're
all screwed up, you got to go

430
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,200
fix yourself.
He, so he says Babylon is going

431
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,720
to come and destroy us and they
laugh at him and then he says

432
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,240
that or I don't know what he
says, but he testifies of Jesus

433
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,560
Christ and as soon as he
testifies of Jesus Christ, they

434
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:17,880
want to kill him.
He's no longer bugging them

435
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,400
politically about Babylon coming
in because King Zedekiah is not

436
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,640
fulfilling the covenant that
he's under as a vassal state.

437
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,200
Right?
But Lehi, you're silly.

438
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,040
But really, whatever.
We don't, we don't care.

439
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,320
But as soon as they start, they,
he starts preaching about Jesus

440
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,800
Christ.
It gloves are off and we want to

441
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:37,880
kill you.
Why?

442
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,840
So there's apostasy there.
And so the Lord leads Lehi and

443
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,600
his family, Ishmael and his
family, out of Jerusalem to find

444
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:51,360
a new promised land.
Jeremiah's left there, right?

445
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,600
You know, in Jerusalem, probably
other people.

446
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,040
I mean, there was a righteous
remnant, actually, that was with

447
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,440
Jeremiah and maybe others that
weren't righteous.

448
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:01,880
They go down to Egypt.
I don't recall.

449
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:08,520
In any case, we see this trend
of apostasy and separation of

450
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:19,920
people to preserve a remnant.
Joseph Smith, I think I know

451
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,600
where I can't.
I don't recall the page number

452
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,080
also, but it's in the TPJS but I
think it was Ron Ron Rod

453
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,440
Meldrum.
Rod Meldrum.

454
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:33,280
Rod Meldrum brought up a podcast
recently, which was it a podcast

455
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,800
something somewhere where he
talks about, and this is just in

456
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,720
Joseph Smith's teachings.
I didn't pick up on this, but he

457
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,000
gives the the the parable of the
field, you know, sowing the

458
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,520
wheat in the field, right?
But he likened so Christ in the

459
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,320
New Testament likens the field
of the world, but Joseph, when

460
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,960
he's retelling the parable,
likens that the the field to the

461
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,200
church.
Right.

462
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,720
And he says the wheat will be
gathered out of the field and

463
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,160
the field will be burned.
Well, what's the field?

464
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:02,560
The church, right?
The righteous will be gathered

465
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,320
out of the church in the field
will be burned.

466
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,560
Right, The church will be
burned.

467
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,680
That's what that tells me.
Guess what?

468
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,840
That's not applying to the folks
who left the church right that I

469
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:17,120
don't could it mean some of the
folks that apostatized from the

470
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:19,760
church individually?
Sure, sure it could.

471
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,240
But it's the church, right?
It's the people in it still or

472
00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:27,080
well, the leadership in it,
right If the.

473
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,080
Field is the church, and there's
wheat and tares, good and bad,

474
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,520
and the wheat or the righteous
being gathered out of the

475
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,440
church, and the tares are left
in the church in the the field,

476
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,280
and the the field is burned.
Interesting.

477
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,680
So the righteous are leaving.
The righteous are gathered out

478
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,640
of the church, and the field
full of tares of the church full

479
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,280
of tares is burnt.
OK, All right.

480
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,360
Maybe that hasn't happened yet.
Besides on a certain level.

481
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,480
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't.

482
00:28:58,480 --> 00:28:59,840
I don't.
I'm not here to say that story's

483
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,600
not done, you know?
But it's been happening, right?

484
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,360
And it's probably going to be
happening more after stuff like

485
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,720
this.
You know, I can't imagine, I

486
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,400
can't understand how it hasn't
happened more considering the

487
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,360
changes that have happened.
Right Patience, a very patient

488
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,560
and loving God.
Oh, a patient and loving God.

489
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,840
And like we just discovered and
discussed earlier, lots of

490
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,680
programming mentally that just,
you cannot even breathe a word

491
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,240
of criticism about the brethren,
even if you don't agree with

492
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,160
them.
And I know after COVID that

493
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,800
there's a ton of people,
faithful Saints, who disagree

494
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,440
with President Nelson and won't
say anything about it.

495
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,680
Yeah, I know for a fact there's
hundreds, thousands of American

496
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,200
Saints.
There's an undercurrent.

497
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,120
You only have to go on Facebook,
but for a little.

498
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,520
While I know and they bite their
tongue, they thinking that

499
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,760
they're being faithful and I get
it, but and they are to the

500
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,680
knowledge that they have right,
They're being faithful to that.

501
00:29:53,160 --> 00:30:00,800
And I think this is, I think
this is probably a good place to

502
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:07,000
to say that the remarks we make
here are more directed at the

503
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,520
leadership than it is the
membership, right?

504
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,560
In that just because you were
saying programming right, you've

505
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,720
grown up with this doctrine.
I grew up with it.

506
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:19,680
You.
You.

507
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,160
You've been taught this from
your earliest age.

508
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,520
It is your bedrock upon which
you build.

509
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:28,160
But it's not.
True.

510
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,080
And it's social suicide.
Yeah, circumstances to to it's

511
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:33,720
fine out.
It's suicide and.

512
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,520
Somewhere it's it's a bit, it's
the biggest hazard signal to

513
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,800
your clan, to your tribe ever,
because now you're not the in

514
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,520
Group any but any testimony
meeting, dude, when you go to a

515
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,800
testimony meeting in the church,
it's all this virtue signaling

516
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,640
and herd signaling.
You're signaling to the herd, to

517
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,840
the sheep.
I'm one of you, because all it

518
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:56,040
is are catchphrases that are the
common things.

519
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,920
That's the signal, the signals
to the clan.

520
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,320
I am saying the same things you
say.

521
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,200
I am one of you.
That's what testimony meetings

522
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,200
are.
And even in the church and with

523
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:13,200
the and with and Nelson, you
know, is a genius, maybe in the

524
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:18,440
negative sense because he's
changed the formula and provided

525
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,880
a new litmus test to see who the
new faithful are by saying we're

526
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,960
no longer Mormons.
We're members of the Church of

527
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,040
Jesus Christ of Latter Day
Saints and anyone who wouldn't

528
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:31,480
swallow that is now what is it
in 1984 like thought crime, word

529
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,640
crime because no, I am a Mormon.
That's MyHeritage.

530
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:35,720
I don't want to get rid of that
term.

531
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,200
But now if you don't kowtow to
that right that he's established

532
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,880
a new virtue signal heard signal
word catch phrase.

533
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,240
Yep.
And know if they don't it you

534
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,720
know, you see what I mean.
It's created a new division.

535
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,640
It totally is.
It totally is.

536
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,800
I was in the church when that
happened, and here's what I

537
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,120
remember.
I remember thinking, I'm not

538
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,480
doing that.
That's straight out of 1984.

539
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,480
That's Orwell, right?
The Dictionary of New Speak.

540
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,160
It is new speak, it's more new
speak.

541
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,560
And he established a new rule
for the the in crowd.

542
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,000
And God and God changed his mind
so fast on that.

543
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:19,360
Because when, when Nelson drops
that little dime there, the I'm

544
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,760
a Mormon campaign is still in
full swing, right?

545
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:24,680
Yeah.
I'm on billboards everywhere.

546
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,160
It was city.
Shoot, when was that?

547
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:27,480
When did he do that?
Was I might have been on a

548
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,840
mission still.
I think that was 20/17/2018.

549
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,720
So I was, I was in the mission
field still when I went down.

550
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:39,080
I hated it.
Yeah, yeah, because it it's a

551
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:40,320
bad.
Look, you want to know what I

552
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:41,960
thought It's.
It's a sound effective.

553
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,760
It's a bad 1.
So I spent nearly two years

554
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,320
getting pass along cards that
say mormon.org or whatever.

555
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:54,280
Two years I'm by street, by St.
door by door, passing along

556
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,400
these cards.
And I actually like President

557
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,640
Nelson.
I've I've met him.

558
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,080
I shook his hand, you know, at
the very end of my mission.

559
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,400
I thought it was great.
And he wasn't president of the

560
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:07,000
church yet.
He.

561
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,200
Was acting ever by the 12th
president?

562
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:10,680
He was.
It was right before President

563
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:11,920
Monson died, and I loved
President.

564
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,720
OK.
But anyways, I hear that.

565
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,360
I know the Scripture.
I know the rhetoric.

566
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,680
Oh, yeah, it is Christ Church.
And if it's the Church of

567
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,000
someone, you don't call it by
the Church of Moses, blah, blah,

568
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:25,080
blah, called by the Church of
Christ.

569
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,840
Otherwise, it's Moses church.
Well, yeah, I get that.

570
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,200
But what I thought to myself was
this is never going to catch on.

571
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,040
I get what President Nelson's
saying, but it's never going to

572
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:37,840
track.
But it became this huge.

573
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,720
That was the dividing one.
It became this huge test among

574
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,160
membership against membership.
Yeah, the Civil War,

575
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,800
essentially.
OK, so I was still in the church

576
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,200
and leadership when this
happened.

577
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,480
And I remember I had made the
comment about, you know, we're

578
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:58,920
going to have a bunch of
Mormons.

579
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,960
You know, we were doing
something kind of, I think it

580
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,960
was the trunk or treat, right?
It was one of those things, and

581
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,440
I had to be in one of those
meetings and it was the elders

582
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:15,239
corn president and the the
Bishop was there and I had said

583
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,760
something about, yeah, nothing,
nothing's more of a party than a

584
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,760
bunch of Mormons getting
together with their kids in the

585
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,920
church parking lot, right?
And they said, brother, Brother

586
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,199
Sanders, you can't say that.
You can't say that.

587
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,679
And I'm like, no, I'm, I'm going
to keep saying it, right?

588
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:34,719
Because look, you may want to
disassociate yourself from that,

589
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,080
but for 100 and some years it
was cool.

590
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,600
So it was.
And now it's not.

591
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,159
So God changes his mind on the
fly.

592
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:47,679
And look, I wanted, I wanted,
you know, I don't want a straw

593
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:50,480
man, this thing, so to speak.
It does say that in the

594
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,600
Scriptures, right?
That is the proper name of the

595
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,960
church.
But you're telling me that that

596
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,360
one prophet can say, let's
certain I'm a Mormon?

597
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,440
Campaign and in the very next
one says saying the word Mormon

598
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,000
is a victory for.
Satan, I mean.

599
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,720
That's a big about face.
That is a huge about face and I

600
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,800
will be honest, I was a little
shocked that people swallowed it

601
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:18,800
as quickly as they.
I I didn't think it would catch.

602
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,760
I didn't either.
Not in a million years.

603
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,040
I didn't either.
I I was shocked at how quickly

604
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:29,560
it caught and I didn't.
I was like, no, no.

605
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:35,160
And so in and of itself, it's
not necessarily bad, right?

606
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,600
It's the context in which it
comes through, right?

607
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,240
And the other thing I'm going to
say to outsiders, it looks

608
00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:45,640
creepy as.
Hell, it looks creepy as hell,

609
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,280
and what it is, in my opinion,
from my observation, is it's an

610
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,240
attempt at rebranding, much like
the Community of Christ became

611
00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:53,000
after the RLDS.
It's totally.

612
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,920
And now it's a better rebrand in
my opinion, kind of, sort of.

613
00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:58,800
But that's essentially what it
is.

614
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,480
It's the modernist rebranding of
the LDS church to appear more

615
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,480
Christian like the RLDS wanted
to appear to the rest of the the

616
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,360
what are the, what's the word
for it?

617
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,200
I don't know.
This Corp, not corporation

618
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,800
Council of Churches.
Yeah, no, no, whatever.

619
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,800
And I just spent two years
before this preaching against

620
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,440
evangelical Christians that
hated me.

621
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,960
Right.
I did not care that they didn't

622
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,720
like me.
Nor should we.

623
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,240
I had just been a warrior for
the church door slammed in my

624
00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:33,720
face.
I don't think I was ever like,

625
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,880
no one ever racked a shotgun in
my presence, you know?

626
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,320
But there were times where it
wasn't comfortable for sure,

627
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,800
right, in certain places.
And I did not care.

628
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,280
You know, I had Baptist St.
preachers ambushed me in parking

629
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:53,360
lots, you know, telling me I
believed in the wrong Jesus.

630
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:54,880
Yeah.
You know that Joseph Smith

631
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,440
believes in the wrong gospel
when your God is the devil.

632
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,960
Whatever, right?
All that.

633
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:02,760
I had to swim through that for
two years.

634
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,840
Then we want to make.
We want to take these measures

635
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,360
that signal to them that we're
just like you.

636
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,400
I don't like what I saw.
I didn't want to be just like

637
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,800
them.
It's funny you should bring this

638
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,600
up and you use the word rebrand
because that's exactly what it

639
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,920
is.
Look, for a long time, people,

640
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,360
you say the LDS church was a
religion that dabbled in

641
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,640
business.
I'm going to flip that on its

642
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,280
head.
It's a business that dabbles in

643
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,160
religion.
You're you're absolutely right.

644
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:31,880
And to go along with that as, as
proof of this, right, what we

645
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,280
see happening now is a complete
rebrand.

646
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,200
That is OK.
It's marketing and and I'm going

647
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,440
to use a a few examples here to
prove this point.

648
00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,680
Name me one modern temple that's
been built within the last two

649
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,760
years that has an Angel Moroni
on it.

650
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,160
Zero.
OK, that I know of.

651
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:54,520
I don't think there is no.
I put money on the table right

652
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,520
now betting of it.
You say there's not there's not.

653
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,360
OK, I've looked at it.
OK, pay up.

654
00:37:59,040 --> 00:37:59,720
Right?
Right.

655
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:00,560
Just kidding.
Just kidding.

656
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,880
There's there's not K now that
they're they're getting rid of

657
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:06,120
it, right?
They're getting the.

658
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:07,680
Imagery.
The imagery, the name, the

659
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:08,560
connotation.
Right.

660
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,440
OK, that that in and of itself
is not breaking any doctrine.

661
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,680
I want to be clear.
There's no doctrine that says

662
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,840
you have to have an Angel Moroni
up top.

663
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,760
I understand that OK.
Now let's go to what they did to

664
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,440
the a lot of those old pioneer
temples, except for Manti, where

665
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,040
they stood up and threw a fit.
And so they decided to just

666
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,240
build a temple just down the
road in Ephraim rather than redo

667
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:32,560
that one.
Thank goodness.

668
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:38,240
But you're now getting rid of
all the Pioneer architecture, I

669
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:40,160
shouldn't say all of it, a good
portion of it.

670
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:41,800
You're getting rid of all the
murals.

671
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,160
You're going straight to video
on that again.

672
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,160
The gutting of the Salt Lake
Temple is probably the

673
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,560
abomination of desolation.
It's nasty.

674
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,600
I've watched it.
I've I watched it happen.

675
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,000
I saw it with my own eyes.
I sat on a bench and wet dude.

676
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,000
I was so freaked out I went home
that night telling the Lord,

677
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,880
I'll quit my job right now.
I'll quit my job right now

678
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,120
because I don't want to be
associated with this.

679
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:14,640
And I'll never forget the
message I got, which was I want

680
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,080
you there for right now.
And I said why I don't want to

681
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,120
be here.
And he said someone has to bear

682
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:22,240
record.
Sure.

683
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:28,120
Someone has to know and what
they did, what they are doing is

684
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,960
they are getting away from
anything that seems to be

685
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,160
outside the pale of what we
would consider orthodox

686
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:38,000
Christianity or Protestantism.
And this isn't a slam on

687
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,080
Protestants.
You're happy being a Protestant.

688
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,280
You do you, bro.
Not, not for me here to say,

689
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,040
well, I mean, we can, we can
have those arguments, right?

690
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,320
I, I will, I will pitch for my
side.

691
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:51,840
But at the end of the day,
that's your choice.

692
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,120
And look, there's a lot of great
Protestants.

693
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,760
I'm not, I'm not meeting up on
Protestants, but that's not what

694
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,480
Mormonism was.
And what they're doing is

695
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,680
removing anything that was
uniquely Mormon.

696
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,440
OK, We can see it in the
verbiage.

697
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:09,880
It used to be when I first
joined the church in 95, it was

698
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,760
that Joseph translated the Book
of Mormon.

699
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,320
Now it's Joseph received the
Book of Mormon by revelation.

700
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:23,120
There's these little key things
all along the way that will tell

701
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,640
you.
Where they're going, right?

702
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:27,400
Big business does it all the
time.

703
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,920
You can tell where business is
going based on what it is.

704
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,440
There was a there, there was a
podcast I watched on this a few

705
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,560
years back and the guy was a
like, he made business and

706
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,440
business philosophy and practice
kind of his thing, right?

707
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,280
And when asked about the LDS
church and what they were doing,

708
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,000
he's like, oh, this is typical.
This is what happens when an

709
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,720
organization is hurting and
looking for a merger and someone

710
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:56,640
asked a question.
Are they looking at merging with

711
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,000
other churches?
He said no, but they definitely

712
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:04,520
want in the club.
You can't be in the club, no,

713
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,920
with certain aspects, right?
So they're rebranding?

714
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:08,800
They're trying, you know, I
don't, I don't know if they'll,

715
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:10,400
I don't think they'll survive
this long.

716
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,320
But even if they did, I don't
think that they'd go in the full

717
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,560
route of, I mean, the final
obstacle between US and other

718
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:18,360
Christians is the Trinity,
right?

719
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,960
Like no matter what else we
believe, that's like the die

720
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,080
hard line for Christians for
some reason is is the their

721
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,920
creedal Trinity doctrine right?
I don't think we'll ever go

722
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,120
there.
So like the only church

723
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:37,040
theoretically that has a similar
ish theology on the Godhead is

724
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,440
like Jehovah's Witnesses right?
And it's not even like. 7th day

725
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,760
Adventists maybe?
I don't know if they have a

726
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:43,280
Trinity.
I don't.

727
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:45,520
I think the 7th Day Adventists
do.

728
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,600
I could be wrong.
But like those are the those are

729
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,480
the three cults that imitate
Christianity according to like

730
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,240
Protestants and Evangelicals,
right?

731
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:58,000
Is 7th day Adventist JWS been us
right?

732
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,200
Right, right.
It, it is a complete rebrand and

733
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:04,680
they know what they're doing
right?

734
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,400
Once again, it, it's the same
argument.

735
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,680
Oh, we need to get more butts in
seats, right?

736
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,560
And unfortunately, along the
way, you're going to lose who

737
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:15,720
you are.
You do?

738
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,320
Yeah, because, you know, we saw
it from Hugh Nibley, you know,

739
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,960
you start popularizing
everything or doing things that

740
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:23,480
everyone loves.
You're going to.

741
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,760
We see the result.
It was the absolute end in the

742
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,680
apostasy of the the faith and
then then the knee fight nation

743
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,760
as a result.
Absolutely.

744
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,560
And they reject.
They kept some things.

745
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,360
And how did he put it?
I want to read that again.

746
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,600
Yeah, read it.
Read it again because this this

747
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,920
bearing out.
This describes to AT what I've

748
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:50,040
seen in the last, I don't know,
seven years, we see that the new

749
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:51,560
churches retain their
traditions.

750
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,240
Of course, they were not seeking
to be original.

751
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,720
They claimed to be the old true
church.

752
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,400
There are many churches which
profess to know the Christ, and

753
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,920
yet they did not.
They did deny the more parts of

754
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:05,920
His gospel.
They took some parts, they kept

755
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,680
parts of the gospel, but they
got rid of others they didn't

756
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:10,880
like.
Is that not what's happening

757
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:12,320
right now?
It's totally what's.

758
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,480
Happening, keeping parts of it
and we're getting rid of other

759
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,240
parts that we don't like.
And he says, well, we do that

760
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:20,640
the same way.
And I don't know what the the

761
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,160
author of this doesn't cite the
year that that quote from Unidly

762
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,400
comes from, but it's probably
1980s, nineteen 70s, right?

763
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,760
And he's saying that, and it's
even worse today.

764
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,840
Yeah, look at where we are now,
right, Right.

765
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,840
And he compares us to the Order
of the Knee Horse.

766
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,960
Nibbly straight up compares the
LDS church to the Order of the

767
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:44,560
New.
I have a good friend who who is

768
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:48,480
still in the church and we have
playful banter right back and

769
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,240
forth.
I remember one day he he was

770
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:55,000
making making fun of me and I'm
like, what are you talking about

771
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:56,640
bro?
Your new Coke.

772
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,400
Now for those, for, for those
who don't know who, who, who

773
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,800
aren't as aged as I am,
Coca-Cola did something

774
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:10,080
interesting back in, in the late
mid to late 80s, right?

775
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,880
Coca-Cola is one of those things
that just didn't change, right?

776
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,520
I mean it was the same.
Well, it did a few actually.

777
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,040
It did a.
You had like a different 1890s

778
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,240
recipe, right?
Started at a later.

779
00:44:21,240 --> 00:44:22,880
Pretty close.
Right, right, right.

780
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,800
But they decided they were going
to change it completely up and

781
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,560
they said we're going to do a
new version of Coke, right?

782
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:34,440
It was horrible.
You envied your dog and his

783
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,840
ability to lick your own rear
end to get the taste out of your

784
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,880
mouth.
It was nasty.

785
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,680
Now we're having this
conversation.

786
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,280
I'm like, dude, you're the new
you're, you're the new Coke,

787
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:45,840
right?
You're the new Coke of

788
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,560
Mormonism.
You're of Mormonism.

789
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,560
This is what you are, right?
He didn't.

790
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,080
He thought it was funny.
Right as he gets it.

791
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:56,240
Right as he gets it right, but
that's where we are right now.

792
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:59,080
Coke came to their senses and
went back right?

793
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,080
Rebranded it Coke Classic, right
as they do, they rebranded it

794
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,480
Coke Classic 'cause they
understood that, oh, this was

795
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:13,400
bad, right And so.
So that's the reason why the LDS

796
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,640
church released the 1886
revelation.

797
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:16,800
They're doing the bait and
switch.

798
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,920
New Coke, old Coke.
Look, classic Mormonism.

799
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:22,880
I don't think.
So I don't either.

800
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:24,880
I don't think so.
I don't think they will go.

801
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,560
That far I had to draw that
parallel.

802
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:30,760
But, but let's not forget that
just recently they said that

803
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,720
that that whole doctrine and and
look, it is an

804
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:37,800
oversimplification.
I want to say that, but forever,

805
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:40,680
you know, they would tell
Mormons, well, you guys believe

806
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,200
that if you're good and you live
up to your covenants that you're

807
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,800
going to get to be as God is and
you will have rounds of creation

808
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,800
on a planet with your own
children.

809
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,560
And we would cheaply go like,
yeah, that's that's what we

810
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,400
believe.
Not anymore.

811
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:56,640
Now they're saying, you know
what?

812
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,120
We're not sure about that,
Doctor.

813
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,400
Anymore.
Yeah, 100%.

814
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,760
Right.
And so there is this distancing.

815
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,200
Deemphasizing.
Right, there's well, it's not

816
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,880
just deemphasizing, it's
distancing, right?

817
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,400
They don't want to be associated
with pioneer Mormonism anymore.

818
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:16,760
They are trying to move in a
direction now that is more

819
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:23,520
appealing to to quite frankly,
this younger crop coming up who

820
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,080
universalism, right?
Exactly.

821
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,600
And so and they will lose
members over it.

822
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,000
They will lose, right?
They will lose.

823
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,240
Members over it, they'll lose
the best blood over it.

824
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:39,000
Absolutely.
Look, the church really doesn't

825
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,800
operate with a wide margin.
And let me explain this.

826
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,600
There was a phrase in the
church, and I was in leadership

827
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,120
for a lot of those years I was
in there and it wasn't because I

828
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,160
was good, you know, better than
anybody else or anything like

829
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,960
that.
It's because I showed up, right?

830
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,480
That's a fact.
I could tell you things about

831
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,280
just that.
And, and here's what's

832
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,200
interesting, right?
We used to have a saying in one

833
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:11,280
of my wards when we would be
like, oh Yep, it's time to call

834
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,040
people out, to start moving so
and so in or out of the ward,

835
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:19,360
right?
Well, who should we call STP?

836
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,520
Guess what doesn't mean some
temple pilots.

837
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:25,880
STP stood for the same 10
people.

838
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,600
Yeah, right.
Any ward you go into.

839
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,600
There's about 10 people.
There's about 10 people that

840
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,400
really make that ward run.
Yep, it's true.

841
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,960
Now those people, they sold out
for the gospel.

842
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,760
They gave it it their all
because they believed in this.

843
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:48,680
Now, if you start taking those
underpinnings out, everything

844
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,840
they thought was solid turns to
liquid.

845
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:53,520
What happens?
To the rest of the Organism.

846
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,320
To the STP, Well, the STP is
going to be like, ain't got time

847
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,680
for this.
There's going to be a bridge too

848
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:03,040
far, yes.
And when that's done, you know

849
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,480
what you're left with?
You're left with the kid that

850
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,480
wears really pointy shoes,
skinny ties and skinny slacks to

851
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,000
try to run the rest of that
ward.

852
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:14,040
Yeah.
And so all your strength it.

853
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,280
You know what?
You're correct.

854
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:19,680
It might only be 1/8 or a 16th
of the population of the LDS

855
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:24,520
church, but that's the the
population that makes the church

856
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:28,200
run on the local level.
It's true.

857
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:32,000
And So what they're doing now
will ultimately backfire.

858
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,200
I'm already seeing it.
I have never seen Mormons from

859
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,400
the LDS church.
This pissed my generation.

860
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:43,400
Is hemorrhaging in the church.
I have very few friends that I

861
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:50,280
grew up with that are still
faithful without any nuance.

862
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,520
Right.
And vast majority of them are

863
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,160
not, they don't care, right?
And they're not interested.

864
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,720
And let's talk about why that
is, Michael.

865
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,200
Is that because the church was
just too hard to live?

866
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,120
That's probably the answer that
they'd give you sometimes.

867
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:13,520
Maybe.
I have another thought.

868
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,120
But I, I just think that that's
losing the vigor.

869
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:21,440
The church has lost the vigor
and the ability to address the

870
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,800
human soul essentially in our
place in the world.

871
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:26,000
I mean, we kind of do, we can
talk about it.

872
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:27,200
Where do we, where do we come
from?

873
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:32,960
Where are we going?
And whatever we talk about the

874
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,480
plan of salvation, but the view
of eternity has been completely

875
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:37,600
eclipsed.
Yep.

876
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,280
Because we're taking away
opportunities for people to

877
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:44,760
learn deeper things, especially
temple liturgy type stuff.

878
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:50,120
When you start taking things out
of a ceremony and we say, oh,

879
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,120
they can learn about that if
they want to, or they can ask

880
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:54,360
about that if they have any
questions.

881
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,200
Well, how are they going to know
how to ask the question if they

882
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,840
ever see it?
If they never see that element?

883
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,000
That part, no.
That dialogue?

884
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,480
A symbol?
Nope.

885
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,120
Nope.
They'll never know the questions

886
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,920
to answer or to ask.
Absolutely, 100%.

887
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:15,320
I, I OK, I'm, I'm going to, I'm
going to boil this down a little

888
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:19,720
more here.
If you were raised in an LDS

889
00:50:19,720 --> 00:50:26,960
home, a Mormon home, and you're
you went to church every Sunday

890
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,640
as a kid, but you came home and
you saw mom and dad do something

891
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,800
different than what the church
was teaching or what the gospel

892
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,200
was teaching, how serious do you
take it?

893
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,320
You know, you probably pretty
serious, and you'd ask why.

894
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,560
No, I mean, how serious would
you take the gospel?

895
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:51,360
Of if, if I grew up in a culture
or a home that was one foot in

896
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:52,880
one foot out, Yeah, you're not
going to take it.

897
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,040
You, you view the one foot in,
one foot out thing as that's OK,

898
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:57,200
right?
I can do that.

899
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,040
I can follow that path.
You can only do that for so long

900
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,400
though, right?
You can't serve 2 masters.

901
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,480
Sure.
OK, so that's on a very personal

902
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:09,200
family, small micro level.
Yeah.

903
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:14,600
Let's talk about the macro.
When you hear competing messages

904
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:20,760
come from the top 12, what does
that do for your youth?

905
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,720
They consistently paint
themselves into a corner with us

906
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:28,280
too, because there's been recent
statements on things like this

907
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,520
too.
Or it's like no statement made

908
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,200
by a member of the First
Presidency or quorum of the 12

909
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:37,760
constitutes doctrine by itself
unless it's and then they give a

910
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:39,840
vague definition of what, you
know, how it could then

911
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,680
constitute doctrine.
Like it's got to agree with the

912
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,320
majority of the others and the
context of the scriptures and

913
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:47,680
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
right?

914
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,280
And it's very vague, honestly.
But they do that to kind of try

915
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,880
to cover their bases for we.
They don't want someone to go

916
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,560
through and find an old Brigham
Young statement or and say this

917
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:00,800
is doctrine, you know, well,
this is never constituting

918
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,720
doctrine, right?
But they put themselves in a

919
00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:09,320
complete eternal flux by still
doing this because now, OK,

920
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:14,560
President Nelson dies tonight
and Oakes becomes president

921
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,160
next, or he's next in line
anyways.

922
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:21,760
And then he does something that
just like Nelson's statement

923
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,080
against Molson, you know, I'm
the the I'm a Woman campaign, it

924
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:26,920
kind of redoes what we're
seeing.

925
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:31,320
And we just get to say, well,
none of what Nelson really said

926
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,560
was scripturally or, you know,
considered doctrine.

927
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,240
And then it's going to make
everyone look silly about, you

928
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:41,440
know, this whole litmus test or
the, you know, about, oh, don't

929
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:43,000
you can't say the word Mormon
anymore.

930
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,400
You see what I'm saying?
Well, everything will just fade

931
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,440
with a new, with a new guy.
Yeah.

932
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,720
It's this eternal flux.
And they, they paint themselves

933
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:51,560
into the corner on this.
There's no getting out of it.

934
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:58,960
So I'm I'm going to I'm going to
say this that talk that happened

935
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,520
with that 70 back in General
conference.

936
00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:04,080
The one that they redid that
they forced him to redo that

937
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:04,960
one.
No, no, no.

938
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:07,200
This was very recent.
This was a couple years ago

939
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,640
where he said he was talking
about vintage comic books,

940
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,360
right?
And how to hold their balance.

941
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,000
I want to throw something right
now.

942
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:16,760
Hold on.
So.

943
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,600
So he says.
Unlike comic.

944
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,200
Books.
Prophetic counsel has a shelf

945
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:23,920
flyer, right?
It does not.

946
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,520
Age and get that is the worst
thing he ever could have said

947
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,680
or.
But nobody corrected it.

948
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,720
I know nobody touched it.
Why?

949
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,800
And I'm going to tell you why
they were signaling.

950
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,680
They were.
That's a signal that there is

951
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,720
more changes coming and you
better get on board if you want

952
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:43,360
to go forward with this
organization.

953
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,640
Yeah, facial.
Suicide and you're out?

954
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:46,600
Yeah.
Out of the group?

955
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:47,880
Yep.
Out of the drive.

956
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,160
Anything, Joseph said.
It's.

957
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:55,120
Got a shelf life?
It just expires. 2nd to Who's in

958
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,200
charge now?
Brigham Young?

959
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,280
Nope.
Sorry, who's in charge now?

960
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,520
John Taylor?
Sorry, who's in charge now?

961
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:09,440
So all of a sudden, what
appealed to me about Mormonism

962
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,880
that those principles don't
change, that covenants don't

963
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,640
change out the door?
I got no time for it at that

964
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:18,800
point.
Right.

965
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:20,720
Throw the freaking scriptures
out the door, dude.

966
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:24,520
At that point, yeah.
And and that's, and that's what

967
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,520
we're seeing.
Which goes back to our first

968
00:54:27,640 --> 00:54:31,800
dive into Joseph's keys.
Make certain that you do not

969
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:33,720
reject any of the revelations,
right?

970
00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:36,800
Whether it's Bible, the Book of
Mormon, the Doctrine Covenants,

971
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:41,480
or any other word of God.
Exactly, exactly.

972
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,000
Now I.
Understand that that can get

973
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:47,840
relatively subjective on a
certain level, sure, But it's

974
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,720
true, you know, there's been
revelations that are not

975
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:55,560
canonized.
Some of them aren't really

976
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,680
relative to anything that we
need to worry about today even,

977
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:04,000
but there are certain things
like the 1886 revelation that

978
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,120
does claim that it's important
today.

979
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,720
Well, and, and let's let's talk
about that canonization process

980
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,320
because I think this is
important that we make this

981
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:18,800
dichotomy.
If the Lord says something to

982
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:27,240
one of His servants, the
prophets, and we choose not to

983
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:31,360
follow it or canonize it, does
that make it any less of a

984
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,080
revelation?
No, no it doesn't.

985
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:40,880
Let me give you an analogy.
If Michael moves to the Adam and

986
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:49,280
Diamond stake sure of of of the
LDS church, they have a choice

987
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,280
of either making him a member of
that quorum or not.

988
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:54,960
Does that mean you're not an
elder?

989
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:57,920
Right, Sure.
No, it just means that they

990
00:55:57,920 --> 00:55:59,760
haven't accepted you into that
quorum.

991
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:05,320
Right.
OK, if you're a member of the

992
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:13,880
LDS church and you live in a
different ward, but you're not a

993
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:17,880
member of the Salt Lake City
First Ward, does that mean

994
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,320
you're any less of a Mormon?
No, it just means you're not a

995
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,800
member of the of the Salt Lake
First Ward.

996
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:28,800
OK, so you could say.
All day long.

997
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,320
We never canonized it.
We never canonized it.

998
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:37,840
Does not make a difference.
Either John Taylor was a prophet

999
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:41,840
or he wasn't.
Yep.

1000
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,400
Or it's a true revelation.
Or it's a false revelation,

1001
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,440
right?
And if it's true and we didn't

1002
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:51,680
accept it, what does that mean?
And if it's false, I mean, then

1003
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:52,920
I guess it doesn't matter,
right?

1004
00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:54,600
Right.
But if it's true, we didn't

1005
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,240
accept it, what does it mean?
It means maybe some people got

1006
00:56:57,240 --> 00:56:59,160
sheltered for a little bit
because they weren't made aware

1007
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:00,080
of it, right?
Right.

1008
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,640
And maybe there's some leeway,
you know, there's some slack in

1009
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,720
the sword of the of the justice
of the eternal God hanging over

1010
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:09,800
our heads.
Yep, which?

1011
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:14,840
Just got removed.
Yes, it's gone and we're going

1012
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:19,280
to cover that in just a few.
But for right now I want to dive

1013
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:21,880
back into the scriptures.
Here, take it wherever you want.

1014
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,760
You're driving this bus.
You sound like you're like

1015
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,840
unloading responsibility, Mike.
No, I'm just here for the ride,

1016
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,760
enjoying it so far.
So I'm going to start out in in

1017
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:36,560
verse 10 of chapter 16 of Third
Nephi.

1018
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,520
OK?
This is the Savior talking now,

1019
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,200
and he's going to say, I'm
commanded by the Father to say

1020
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:48,680
this to you.
OK Verse 10 And thus commandeth

1021
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:52,120
the Father, that I should say
unto you, at the day when the

1022
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:56,120
Gentiles shall sin against my
gospel, and shall reject the

1023
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,520
fullness of my gospel, and shall
be lifted up in the pride of

1024
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:03,320
their hearts above all nations,
and above all people of the

1025
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,360
whole earth.
And shall be filled with all

1026
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:11,480
manners of lying and deceits,
and of mischiefs, and all manner

1027
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,840
of hypocrisy, and murders, and
priests, crafts, and whoredoms,

1028
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:20,480
and secret abominations, if they
shall do those things, and shall

1029
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:22,560
reject the fullness of my
gospel.

1030
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:27,040
Behold, saith the Father, I will
bring the fullness of my gospel

1031
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,680
from among them.
And then will I remember the

1032
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,920
covenant which I have made unto
my people, O House of Israel.

1033
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:35,720
And I will bring my gospel unto
them.

1034
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,280
And I will show unto thee, O
House of Israel, that the

1035
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,440
Gentiles shall not have power
over you.

1036
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,680
But I will remember my covenant
unto you, O House of Israel, and

1037
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,960
ye shall come unto the knowledge
of the fullness of my gospel.

1038
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:55,400
But if the Gentiles will repent
and return unto me, sayeth the

1039
00:58:55,400 --> 00:59:00,000
Father, behold, they shall be
numbered among my people, O

1040
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,160
House of Israel.
And I will not suffer my people,

1041
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,400
who are of the House of Israel,
to go through among them and

1042
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:11,680
tread the and tread them down,
sayeth the Father.

1043
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:15,400
If I had to pinpoint one passage
of scripture that put me where I

1044
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,840
am today, is that.
OK, let's break this down

1045
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,960
because I think this is super
important first.

1046
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:24,480
That's critical, at least for
me.

1047
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:28,360
Yeah, it was critical for me.
OK, this is Jesus talking.

1048
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:32,600
This isn't a prophet.
This is not an inspired man.

1049
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:38,160
This is the Savior.
And who does he say is telling

1050
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,960
him he should say these things?
God the Father.

1051
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:47,120
Right, so right there Jesus is
saying, just so we're all clear,

1052
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:51,240
I'm going to tell you this, but
this comes from our Father.

1053
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:56,360
This is the word of God.
OK, when?

1054
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:00,520
How many times did the Gentiles
have a fullness of the gospel?

1055
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,000
It's a great question, at least
once that I can count.

1056
01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:06,160
Anymore.
Can you think of any off the top

1057
01:00:06,160 --> 01:00:07,960
of your head?
No, not off the top of my head.

1058
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:13,160
Once the fullness, Once.
When was it?

1059
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:17,400
This dispensation, this
dispensation, so people think

1060
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,080
gentiles A tricky word in our
vernacular, right?

1061
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:23,600
They think it's an outsider or a
non church member, right, but

1062
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:28,160
really according to blood too.
But you go like it's ADNC one O

1063
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:32,640
8 one O 9 whatever it's Joseph
is receiving revelation where

1064
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,560
the Lord defines the gentile as
the church.

1065
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:39,280
Yep, and that's a there's a
direct not.

1066
01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:42,240
It's not rhetorical, it's a
literary connection being forged

1067
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,680
between Gentile and church.
Right.

1068
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,720
And so this revelation and to
the Nephites or to a Nephite

1069
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:54,480
audience that Christ is speaking
to Gentile would be the blood

1070
01:00:54,480 --> 01:00:57,360
that we come from, right from
Europe, right?

1071
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:03,360
We were the Gentiles to to the
Josephites to the Lee Heights.

1072
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,440
So that makes sense why we're
labeled that in this context in

1073
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:11,600
3rd Nephi and why the Lord has
to point out in the DNC that

1074
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,320
were the Gentiles, the churches,
the Gentiles.

1075
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,280
So you're right.
So, yeah, back to the fullness

1076
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:18,320
of the gospel.
When was, when did the Gentiles

1077
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:21,120
have this that we know of right
now?

1078
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:26,120
And and Christ is talking about
what happens if we reject it,

1079
01:01:26,120 --> 01:01:30,080
right, Right.
Not the uninitiated rejecting

1080
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:31,400
missionaries knocking on their
doors.

1081
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:32,960
That's not what it's talking.
About no and.

1082
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,040
That's what people think it's
talking about.

1083
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:36,720
But.
That's not, not, not what it's

1084
01:01:36,720 --> 01:01:39,960
talking about.
He specifically says it's when

1085
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:44,080
you, meaning the Gentiles have
the fullness of the gospel.

1086
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:49,600
And he doesn't say if he says
when you reject it.

1087
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:53,200
Yeah, he is not only it's not
only a revelation, it's a

1088
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:57,600
prophecy when you reject it.
And then the conditional if is

1089
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:00,040
on the clause repent of
repenting.

1090
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:02,800
Yes, if you repent.
Yes.

1091
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:05,200
Yeah, it you'll you'll be saved
and numbered with the House of

1092
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:06,960
Israel.
OK, so let's look at the

1093
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:08,000
criterium here.
Real.

1094
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:08,920
Quick.
Sure, go for.

1095
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:13,480
It they shall be filled with all
manner of lines.

1096
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:16,560
Can we think of a time when the
LDS Church.

1097
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:18,600
Yeah, I don't think we'd use 12
on that. 1.

1098
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,120
Any longer than we have already.
I think it's worthwhile.

1099
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,120
All right, go for it.
I I think, I think we just

1100
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,000
mentioned quite a few already.
I think we go ahead and we show

1101
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:28,920
the receipts.
All right, what else do you got

1102
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,520
on your mind?
I'm going to say, let's start

1103
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:36,280
Most recent did Was there ever a
flat out lie about the 1886

1104
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,200
revelation?
Well, yeah, OK, that's what I

1105
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,360
was referring to, but OK,
continue.

1106
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:47,480
OK, what about if you were to
hide money in a shell company

1107
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,560
somewhere else?
Well, I think that could qualify

1108
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,000
not only as lying and deceits
and mischief.

1109
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:56,320
I think that could be secret
combinations.

1110
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:57,960
You and your accountants are
working together.

1111
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,080
Sure.
OK, well, there's that.

1112
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:03,880
Priestcraft.
Do we see that?

1113
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,000
Oh, we sure do.
How many business deals are

1114
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,640
made?
Oh my word, all the apostles.

1115
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:12,480
Own some big corporation in
Utah.

1116
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:18,080
Yep, Yep, all of them.
Every individual 1K, Bonneville,

1117
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:22,160
stuff like that.
OK, you want to remember who was

1118
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,160
wrapped up in the whole Timothy
Ballard thing?

1119
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,360
Was Elder Ballard.
It was, yeah.

1120
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:35,000
OK, All right, that's
interesting, Whoredoms.

1121
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:39,320
Well, I'm, again, I'm going to
make this real uncomfortable.

1122
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,080
Right now.
The LDS Church gives annually

1123
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:52,120
millions of dollars to UNICEF,
other UN aid groups.

1124
01:03:53,640 --> 01:03:57,480
You start to follow the money on
that and you don't, don't take

1125
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,160
my word for it.
I did an episode with Ben

1126
01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,200
Winfield where we talked about
this, where I showed the

1127
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:06,280
receipts.
A lot of the money that UNICEF

1128
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:16,080
gets goes to gay rights, goes to
how, how do they put it?

1129
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:20,960
Women's reproductive health?
Yeah, goes to safe sex

1130
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,880
practices.
Now people say, well, maybe the

1131
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:27,560
church earmarked that.
OK, let's just use your

1132
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:29,200
argument.
Well, let me say you're right.

1133
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:33,520
Yes, the church gave money that
had to be earmarked for to get

1134
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:37,640
rid of polio.
All you did was free up more

1135
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:44,960
money by giving them the money
to take care of the vaccinations

1136
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:49,080
so they can devote other monies
to these horrible causes.

1137
01:04:49,080 --> 01:04:51,840
So yeah, I think you're there.
Now you just look at Salt Lake

1138
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:54,800
City too, you know, didn't they
just do something really stupid,

1139
01:04:56,120 --> 01:05:00,680
really gay as far as putting the
like they've made the, the Utah

1140
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:05,000
State flag or the OR the like,
didn't put the rainbow colors on

1141
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:07,640
it, whatever, and made it the,
made it the city flag or

1142
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:09,240
whatever.
No, whatever.

1143
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:12,840
So that they could get around
the Utah State Legislature

1144
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:17,200
saying we're not going to hoist
the pride flags anymore.

1145
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:20,400
And like basically in defiance
of that statute, right?

1146
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:21,720
Or which is the federal thing,
right?

1147
01:05:21,720 --> 01:05:22,840
Actually, it's not the state
level.

1148
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,560
It's the IT.
Was on state and city level the

1149
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:30,720
the mayor of Salt Lake, I think
her name, I think it's still

1150
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:32,520
Aaron Mendenhall.
Don't quote me on that.

1151
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,400
In protest of them passing the
law in Utah on the state level

1152
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:44,000
saying no more just the state
and and the and the the stars

1153
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:45,440
and stripes, right?
That's the only thing we're

1154
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,880
flying, right?
She went in and had a Utah State

1155
01:05:49,880 --> 01:05:54,840
flag put against rainbow colors
and flew that so she could get

1156
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,520
away with it.
OK, there's that.

1157
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,880
Yeah, Salt Lake City, the gayest
city on earth.

1158
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:07,880
Now what if wanting to be?
What if and I just had I just

1159
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,400
had a guy on he he's asked me
not to say his name again.

1160
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:16,200
Just had a guy on his sister
lives in a ward where they just

1161
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:19,200
had a lesbian couple speak at
church.

1162
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,080
This is a couple that is living
together.

1163
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:26,400
Yeah.
So, so whoredoms, check check

1164
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,160
check, we got.
That autumn Salt Lake is Sodom.

1165
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:33,840
Got you.
So we have, we have all that,

1166
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:41,080
OK, OK.
So we've hit wines check very

1167
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:44,080
recently.
Deceits think that can go under

1168
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:47,080
the whole financial thing,
moving money around illegally.

1169
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:50,480
Mischiefs of the receipts, Yes,
right, right.

1170
01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:54,520
Then we have mischiefs.
I think that would be

1171
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:58,840
categorized in that.
Then we have hypocrisies.

1172
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:02,920
Take a look at Hebrew J Grant.
You all can't practice plural

1173
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:09,000
marriage, but I can.
Well, he was the last living

1174
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:13,960
polygamist prophet, I believe.
But the hypocrisy grant was

1175
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:16,240
deeper.
We covered that a lot with our

1176
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:20,520
other episodes.
And like we're in the 1890s or

1177
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,880
actually the Reed Smooth
hearings that I early thoughts

1178
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:26,480
of the 1900s where he boldly
testified in court that he was

1179
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:29,320
going to continue to marry and
have kids and cohabit with his

1180
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:32,400
wife until he had sons because
he couldn't have sons for some

1181
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:35,040
reason.
And then he paid his $500 fine,

1182
01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,280
which was not $500 in today's
money, by the way.

1183
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:43,280
The guy was nearly broke to do
it because he was in debt like

1184
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:44,600
crazy at the time.
I'm.

1185
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:46,800
Pretty sure.
Right.

1186
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:51,560
Yeah, absolutely.
OK, and then there's priest

1187
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:52,840
crafts.
We've covered that.

1188
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:57,160
We've covered covered whoredoms,
Secret abominations.

1189
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:01,600
Yep.
However, I think there's another

1190
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:04,240
way that this could apply, and
I'm going to read a story here

1191
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:07,120
right now.
And this comes from a guy named

1192
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:09,040
Daniel.
He know who's he who he is.

1193
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:10,760
I don't want.
Those who know, know.

1194
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:12,800
You're right.
If you know, you know, right.

1195
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:15,280
But he, he has an interesting
story.

1196
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:19,120
He says there was a couple that
were separated by the church for

1197
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:22,279
that revelation, meaning the
1886 revelation.

1198
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:28,399
The church said it didn't exist
and that the woman should leave

1199
01:08:28,399 --> 01:08:33,240
the man because the man had got
a, a testimony of it.

1200
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,720
But how would she be taken care
of?

1201
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:41,120
The church gave her a job and
not just any job, but they gave

1202
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:45,279
her a job in the archives.
She cleaned and helped care for

1203
01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:47,319
different documents and papers,
etcetera.

1204
01:08:47,319 --> 01:08:49,920
And guess what?
She found the revelation would

1205
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:52,080
she do?
She left the church over that

1206
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:55,840
fact and they lied to her.
There were there that couple

1207
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:01,479
that was a couple years after
she left her husband over it

1208
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:05,880
only to have it now come out in
the Tribune and other sources

1209
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:10,359
that they are now admitting that
the revelation is legitimate.

1210
01:09:10,399 --> 01:09:13,520
It's hard to believe Maybe they
and then we'll just leave it

1211
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:15,600
right there.
It's not the only time that

1212
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:17,800
happened.
No, it's not the only time that

1213
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,200
happened.
Now by the church denying this,

1214
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:22,840
the husband received a testimony
of it.

1215
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:26,160
The wife did not The church said
it didn't exist.

1216
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:30,680
It did, and over this issue, you
killed a marriage.

1217
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:34,200
Now they came back together.
That's a happy ending, but most

1218
01:09:34,200 --> 01:09:35,760
of them didn't end.
One, they don't end that way.

1219
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,520
No, not not all.
And let's get real specific.

1220
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:41,800
This isn't the only time.
Guess who had a hand in the in

1221
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:43,760
the raids in the 40s and 50's?
The church.

1222
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:48,600
The church had a hand in it, all
the while denying this very

1223
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:51,760
valid revelation.
They had a choice.

1224
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:53,720
You don't want to be part of it?
That's fine.

1225
01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:56,440
Then call them your rear cousins
off to the side.

1226
01:09:56,440 --> 01:09:59,400
And you know what?
They're not with us, but instead

1227
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:02,640
you're persecuted.
Or they're the weird guys we

1228
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:04,920
want to keep at arm's distance,
but at least they're ours.

1229
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:06,200
Kind of, right?
Right.

1230
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,320
That's like Christ talking to
his disciples and talking about

1231
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:11,880
the Pharisees and their
wickedness because they decide

1232
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:14,640
not to enter into the gate that
leads to heaven, and they don't

1233
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:17,240
suffer anyone else to enter in
either, right?

1234
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:19,320
Right.
Right.

1235
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:22,120
And then?
And then he says something like

1236
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:25,160
you make the proselytes, which
means converts you make, and

1237
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:28,560
they make the proselytes tenfold
the devils that they are.

1238
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:32,600
Yes, and it's true.
It's true.

1239
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:38,080
Yeah.
And so for the better part of,

1240
01:10:39,560 --> 01:10:42,960
gosh, when was the last denial
130 years ago?

1241
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,560
The last what the the last
denial was in 1933, right?

1242
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:47,880
That I'm aware of, yeah.
Yeah.

1243
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:50,920
I take that back.
I think Marky Peterson made an

1244
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,720
allusion to it in his book in
Way of the Master.

1245
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:57,440
As far as First Presidency,
disavow, although yeah, it was

1246
01:10:57,440 --> 01:11:03,600
Grant in 33.
OK, 33, So that's 90 some years

1247
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:06,200
now.
Yeah, the better part of 100

1248
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:09,640
years, yeah.
How many families died, How many

1249
01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:13,640
families died separated over
this because you couldn't face

1250
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:19,640
the face the truth?
You owe an explanation.

1251
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:23,520
It's not enough just to drop it
and be like, oh, damn, look at

1252
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:25,240
that.
I left that pesky revelation in

1253
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:26,640
my other vault.
Right?

1254
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:31,680
OK, that thing is, everybody
knew.

1255
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:34,000
Everybody knew.
We've known forever, you know,

1256
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:38,200
we've had guys like Michael, you
know, D Michael Quinn say, yeah,

1257
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:44,480
this, it exists in the the the
vault and heck, even in the

1258
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:47,040
whenever they published, you
know, our people published the

1259
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:49,320
the Jensen Ballard
correspondence and Melvin J

1260
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:54,640
Ballard, grandfather of our
elder Ballard, he admitted to

1261
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,080
finding it.
You know, he didn't really want

1262
01:11:57,080 --> 01:11:59,920
to admit it, but he did, you
know, he was put in that corner

1263
01:11:59,920 --> 01:12:03,720
and that correspondence was
published and but other things

1264
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:06,400
that still haven't.
So we really need to, you know,

1265
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:10,040
we need to push now that we know
that this exists because it

1266
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:14,560
validates the rest.
But Quinn says that, well, we

1267
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:19,160
know the George Buchanan's diary
is the there's certain dates

1268
01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:21,680
around this time period that
have been ripped out and are

1269
01:12:21,680 --> 01:12:24,560
missing, ripped out.
And they're not.

1270
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:27,440
Yeah, the rest of his Diaries
are totally open, but those

1271
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:29,680
dates around that revelation are
gone.

1272
01:12:30,080 --> 01:12:34,280
But George Buchanan also had a a
different memo book that's in

1273
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:36,640
the First Presidency vault.
And then you have the First

1274
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,360
Presidency Office journal and
John Taylor's journal, which are

1275
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:40,800
also in the vault.
Absolutely.

1276
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:46,960
What do those say?
Let's see those. 100% at some

1277
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:52,720
point the truth is going to have
its day whether you want it to

1278
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:55,520
or not.
Truth is a funny thing.

1279
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:59,120
It doesn't exist because it
wants you to feel good.

1280
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:04,240
It doesn't exist because it has
an agenda.

1281
01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:07,440
The truth is the truth simply
because it exists.

1282
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:11,280
It's self existent and it does
not care.

1283
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:17,560
And the longer that you put it
off, the longer you force it,

1284
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,240
the worse it gets.
So I'm glad that the church put

1285
01:13:21,240 --> 01:13:23,680
this out.
I am to whatever historian did

1286
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,880
it, thank you.
But there's more to it.

1287
01:13:27,720 --> 01:13:34,960
But nonetheless, the release of
this document and consequently,

1288
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:37,640
I want to say this, the Reuben,
the J Reuben Clark letter.

1289
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:41,320
Do I go over that?
Yeah, let's go over that.

1290
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:47,120
Let's again show the receipts.
So I got it pulled up here.

1291
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:50,360
It says so in this doc.
You can go to the church

1292
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:52,320
website.
It's not just published and

1293
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,160
maybe they have links to it on
the Tribune articles and the

1294
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:57,800
other articles that have written
on this.

1295
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:00,520
But on the church website, the
official church website, you can

1296
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:03,600
find this now and it's open to
research, which blows my mind.

1297
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:06,920
Like it gives you the status
like is this hidden or ball?

1298
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:10,360
I know this, this document's
open to to research, I suppose

1299
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:16,480
in this there's like it's a 28
page file that was in an

1300
01:14:16,480 --> 01:14:22,200
envelope and this letter or note
from J Reuben Clark signed by

1301
01:14:22,200 --> 01:14:23,960
him is in this portfolio.
OK.

1302
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:28,200
And it says this paper meaning
the revelation right in John

1303
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:29,680
Taylor's handwriting as well as
type.

1304
01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:34,440
There's also several typed
copies of the handwritten

1305
01:14:34,440 --> 01:14:36,840
revelation.
This paper came into the

1306
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:39,240
possession of the First
Presidency in the following

1307
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:44,680
manner.
After the issuance of the

1308
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:49,200
official statement of June 17th,
1933 by the 1st Presidency

1309
01:14:49,440 --> 01:14:54,400
covering the matter of of
pretended polygamous or plural

1310
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:56,320
marriages.
President Ivan stated to

1311
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:00,200
Presidents Grant and Clark that
a report had come to him that

1312
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:03,840
Sister Nellie Taylor, that's one
of John W Taylor's wives.

1313
01:15:04,840 --> 01:15:09,680
It's Samuel Woolley, Taylor's
daughter, or no, sorry, Samuel W

1314
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:15,240
Woolley's daughter.
The Nellie Taylor, one of the

1315
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:18,120
plural wives of John W Taylor,
was affirming that she had found

1316
01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:20,840
among the papers of her husband,
John W Taylor, after his death,

1317
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:24,080
a paper on which was something
written in the handwriting of

1318
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:28,120
President John Taylor.
Sister Taylor stated that she

1319
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:32,000
had turned over this paper to
Brother Frank Y Taylor, who is

1320
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:35,560
He was a President State
President of Granite, which was

1321
01:15:35,560 --> 01:15:38,160
the harp, the hotbed for new
polygamy in those days.

1322
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:41,080
Yep, that the granite stake was
kind of almost if I if I

1323
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:43,120
remember from our conversation.
It was it was the hot.

1324
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:46,520
It was, it was the forest.
Dale Ward in Granite Stake was

1325
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:49,280
called Polygamyville.
Yeah, it was the safe haven.

1326
01:15:49,280 --> 01:15:53,080
If you were a polygamist, you
wanted to get to that ward in

1327
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:53,880
that state.
Yeah.

1328
01:15:53,880 --> 01:15:57,040
And the people who incorporated
that Township or that ward or

1329
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:59,200
whatever, I think actually the
actual town, not like the

1330
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:02,920
municipality of it.
Joe Joseph Muster was the

1331
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:06,920
stenographer for the for the
meeting and the other guys

1332
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:11,360
involved in the legal stuff was
known polygamy advocates like

1333
01:16:13,000 --> 01:16:20,640
Patriarch Harrison Sperry,
Joseph W Summerhays, who was who

1334
01:16:20,640 --> 01:16:23,960
was specifically commissioned by
Joseph F Smith to do plural

1335
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:27,040
marriages in Mexico and other
places and give him permission

1336
01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:30,200
to take a plural wife himself.
And when it was found out Joseph

1337
01:16:30,200 --> 01:16:33,760
F Smith, this is the only one of
the only if not, maybe there's

1338
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:35,480
two.
But if there was 2, it's one of

1339
01:16:35,480 --> 01:16:38,960
the it's one of the only
instances we know of where

1340
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:41,840
President Joseph F Smith went to
bat against the quorum of the 12

1341
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:44,480
to save him and his church
membership.

1342
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:47,080
Right, because he personally
authorized that.

1343
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:49,240
Yep.
Post second manifesto, Yep.

1344
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:52,200
Anyway.
And so, yeah, so Polygamyville,

1345
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:53,840
Forestdale and and Granite
Stakes.

1346
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:58,560
So the stake president, one of
the counselors was John M

1347
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:01,960
Cannon, who also factors into
this, was George Buchanan's

1348
01:17:02,080 --> 01:17:03,080
nephew.
Right.

1349
01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:08,000
Yeah, this is all huge, but
yeah.

1350
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:10,960
So, President Grant, this letter
continues.

1351
01:17:10,960 --> 01:17:13,960
This note continues.
President Grant spoke to Frank Y

1352
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:18,760
Taylor about the matter, and the
latter stated that he had no

1353
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:20,960
recollection of ever having seen
this paper.

1354
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:25,440
But if such a paper existed and
had been given to him, he could

1355
01:17:25,440 --> 01:17:28,080
easily find it, as he knew just
where he would have put it.

1356
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:33,120
Which definitely sounds like a
Taylor thing to say.

1357
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:42,520
I'll say that about July 15th,
1933, Frank Y Taylor brought to

1358
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:46,000
President Grant the attached
paper encased in the envelope

1359
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:49,600
which is attached to this paper.
The date written on the back of

1360
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:52,840
the second sheet is the date of
President John Taylor's death

1361
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:56,840
and was written by President
Grant on July 17th, 1933.

1362
01:17:57,320 --> 01:18:05,360
Also Frank Y Taylor, it was said
about him by Patriarch John,

1363
01:18:08,440 --> 01:18:11,280
shoot, I'm forgetting his name.
He was he, he became a very

1364
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:14,520
rabid anti polygamist in his
later days.

1365
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:19,360
He was trying to ferret out all
the new polygamy, but he said

1366
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,880
that if Frank Y Taylor had never
taken post manifesto plural

1367
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,520
marriage, you know, post
manifesto plural wives, he would

1368
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:28,840
have been an apostle in the
church.

1369
01:18:29,240 --> 01:18:32,680
Right.
I think something was said

1370
01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:35,600
similar similarly about Ogden
Kraut, wasn't it?

1371
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:36,760
Maybe.
I don't know.

1372
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:38,840
I don't recall.
I think Kevin tells a story

1373
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:40,440
about.
That guy's name, but you know,

1374
01:18:40,440 --> 01:18:42,240
he's fascinated.
It's fascinating, but I love

1375
01:18:42,240 --> 01:18:43,800
Frank White Taylor.
He's also the person that

1376
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:46,760
invented a family home evening.
Yeah, he was.

1377
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:51,000
Yes, you are correct.
Yep, the the the institution

1378
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,400
that is held near and dear.
To to Mormonism.

1379
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:55,680
That caused me so much
consternation.

1380
01:18:55,680 --> 01:18:59,520
Trying to watch football on
Sunday, on Monday nights came

1381
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:04,040
from a fundamentalist, right.
Oh, headphones too, by the way,

1382
01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:09,960
Baldwin, Baldwin, look, he was
the guy who pioneered the tech

1383
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:11,720
that would become the Airpods,
right?

1384
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:15,320
I mean, at the time it was, it
was just plugging, plugging in.

1385
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:18,560
But it's it's still the same
theory, right?

1386
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:22,880
Here's something else I want to
talk about a little bit, which

1387
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:27,000
is J Reuben Clarke and who this
man is, because I think this is

1388
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:29,200
super important for everyone to
know.

1389
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:35,000
You know who wasn't real active
through most of his life?

1390
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:39,120
J Ruben Clark.
To the point that he didn't

1391
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:42,480
baptize some of his daughters
when they were living back East.

1392
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:48,480
Doesn't say why, but just didn't
baptize them.

1393
01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:54,160
Someone else did it.
Yeah, we go forward.

1394
01:19:55,400 --> 01:20:01,280
He gets called as a member of
the Quorum of the 12 and.

1395
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,840
There's an interesting thing
that happens in Church history

1396
01:20:07,680 --> 01:20:09,440
Guy by the name of Richard
Lyman.

1397
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:13,560
The last apostle to get
excommunicated.

1398
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:16,440
To get excommunicated from the
LDS Church, and I'm going to

1399
01:20:16,440 --> 01:20:19,960
fill you in because gosh darn
it, there's just not a lot out

1400
01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:23,040
there about Richard Lyman if
you're a faithful member of the

1401
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:27,280
LDS church.
So let me help Richard Lyman.

1402
01:20:28,240 --> 01:20:30,400
He's the grandson of a mass
alignment.

1403
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:39,120
He is Mormon royalty, yes, by
all accounts, a good man too.

1404
01:20:39,920 --> 01:20:44,600
By all accounts, when he gets
put into the Quorum of the 12

1405
01:20:44,600 --> 01:20:48,320
shortly after our boy Reuben
Clarke.

1406
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:54,080
And OK, I'm just going to say
another thing here.

1407
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:57,400
My wife has always said you
can't trust a man in a bow tie.

1408
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:00,720
And if I'm not mistaken.
Clark liked to wear a bow tie.

1409
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:03,720
Clark liked to wear a bow tie,
so, so I might have to give that

1410
01:21:03,720 --> 01:21:07,680
to her on this one.
So score a point for Amber.

1411
01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:16,440
But anyway, he gives Lyman a
special assignment, which is I

1412
01:21:16,440 --> 01:21:20,320
want you to counsel with the
sisters who have either had

1413
01:21:20,320 --> 01:21:24,360
husbands leave them when they
stopped being a a proponent of

1414
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:28,200
plural marriage or women who
have left plural husbands.

1415
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:33,840
That's your job.
So he does and he falls in love

1416
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:38,320
with one.
And for the better part of 18

1417
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:43,920
years he is living.
And, and maybe it's because I

1418
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:47,480
did something similar when I was
in the LDS church that I feel a

1419
01:21:47,480 --> 01:21:49,040
certain kinship here.
Sure.

1420
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:54,080
Again, I hate to break to
everyone, I'm the dude that took

1421
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:56,280
both women through the Salt Lake
Temple.

1422
01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:10,400
Anyway, there's other stories I
can tell you too with like

1423
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:14,400
meetings with 70s and stuff that
that I'll share.

1424
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:16,360
I may have shared it already, I
can't remember.

1425
01:22:16,400 --> 01:22:21,000
I may have shared it on a
separate podcast where it it

1426
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:24,600
wasn't like an admission or
anything like that, but I'll

1427
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:26,520
tell it at when I'm done with
this.

1428
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:32,080
Anyway, Lyman's counseling with
this woman.

1429
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:36,160
He falls in love with her, she
convinces him of the principle

1430
01:22:37,240 --> 01:22:41,760
and for 18 years he had.
He's essentially married to her

1431
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:49,880
right and says as much.
His wife knows, Let's, let's.

1432
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:52,440
I know.
Everyone wants to frame it in

1433
01:22:52,440 --> 01:22:55,400
the courts as an affair.
Was she released society?

1434
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:58,640
General, he was General Relief
Society president when this all

1435
01:22:58,640 --> 01:23:07,680
goes down, right?
OK, so let's just say let let's

1436
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:09,760
look at that claim that it was
an affair.

1437
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:15,880
I'm about to tip our hand here,
fellas, and I apologize. 18 year

1438
01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:19,480
affair.
An 18 year affair is not going

1439
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:24,560
to go unnoticed to your wife.
Yeah, nor should it.

1440
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:26,320
All right, let me get that out
of the way.

1441
01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:30,880
It's not like she's can be like
he's just so gosh darn faithful

1442
01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:34,320
to the church because he's out
there working all night long.

1443
01:23:34,640 --> 01:23:41,120
No, that's not what's going on.
J Reuben Clark gets wind of this

1444
01:23:42,640 --> 01:23:47,240
and J Ruben Clark, rather than
bring Wyman in in front of him

1445
01:23:47,240 --> 01:23:53,800
and the rest of the quorum,
privately calls the Salt Lake

1446
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:59,880
City chief of police and says, I
want to report a polygamist and

1447
01:23:59,880 --> 01:24:03,240
I know where he's going to be.
And by the way, make sure the

1448
01:24:03,240 --> 01:24:07,200
media is there and perp walk
him.

1449
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:12,400
They break that door down.
I mean, it's not like knocking

1450
01:24:12,400 --> 01:24:15,280
on the door.
Hey, guy, we know you're in

1451
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:16,520
there.
They break down the door and

1452
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:22,440
they haul him out in his
underwear and then excommunicate

1453
01:24:22,440 --> 01:24:27,320
him promptly.
His wife, though, never leaves

1454
01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:30,440
him.
His first wife never leaves him.

1455
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:35,840
She continues to be the General
Relief Society president.

1456
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:41,320
Now, I get it.
At that point, the church wants

1457
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:43,400
to be known with plural
marriage, I understand.

1458
01:24:46,800 --> 01:24:50,000
But to do it in that manner?
No, it's wrong.

1459
01:24:50,360 --> 01:24:52,560
Absolutely wrong.
Judas Iscariot, anybody?

1460
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:57,400
I, I don't know how else to put
it right.

1461
01:24:57,680 --> 01:25:01,320
So J Reuben Clark, I know a lot
of the right wing folks

1462
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:05,280
politically in the church love
him because he was outspoken on

1463
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:09,240
things like socialism, the rise
of fascism, those sorts of

1464
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:15,240
things.
But make no mistake, he is not a

1465
01:25:15,240 --> 01:25:20,000
guy who is concerned with
doctrinal purity.

1466
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:25,440
No, what is he concerned with?
The political standing and quote

1467
01:25:25,480 --> 01:25:28,560
the good name of the church.
And that's why he is where he

1468
01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:31,040
is.
It's no secret he gets called

1469
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:33,280
shortly after the Reed Smoot
hearings.

1470
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:35,920
Right.
And also you got to admit the

1471
01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:38,640
political situation with Mexico,
the fact that he was the

1472
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:41,920
ambassador, the, you know, he
was the United States ambassador

1473
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:44,800
to Mexico and the church had
Mexico, Mexican colonies in

1474
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:48,040
those days.
And after the Mexican Civil War

1475
01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:50,680
was probably trying to set
people back up there.

1476
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:53,880
People lost their homes.
And so makes sense to have the

1477
01:25:53,880 --> 01:25:56,600
guy that was in politics
involved in the church hierarchy

1478
01:25:56,600 --> 01:25:59,000
at the time.
Yep, Yep.

1479
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:02,440
Inspired.
I doubt it.

1480
01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:05,680
Politically expedient, Sure,
100%.

1481
01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:13,760
Sure, 100%.
But this is this is the soup in

1482
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:17,840
which this is happening.
And I think that we need to

1483
01:26:17,840 --> 01:26:23,080
evaluate the character of the
man if we're going to look at

1484
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:25,320
that letter.
Right.

1485
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:31,120
I agree.
And the fact is that they admit

1486
01:26:32,920 --> 01:26:36,000
that the reason they hit it was
essentially.

1487
01:26:36,440 --> 01:26:39,800
Because it was true.
Well, because we based authority

1488
01:26:39,800 --> 01:26:44,680
claims on it.
Yes, Yep, Yep.

1489
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:46,120
And they didn't want it coming
to light.

1490
01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:46,800
And the fact.
OK.

1491
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:50,400
And it's also kind of not
addressing the fact that they

1492
01:26:50,400 --> 01:26:52,000
knew about the revelation
already.

1493
01:26:52,080 --> 01:26:53,960
They're they're lying about
knowing about us.

1494
01:26:53,960 --> 01:26:55,400
Like this is how it came into
our hands.

1495
01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:58,240
John W Taylor walked into a
meeting of the corpsman.

1496
01:26:58,240 --> 01:27:00,920
The 12, at least three or four
times that I can count on, you

1497
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:05,600
know, count that I know of and
explain to them how, what are we

1498
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:08,280
doing, guys?
My dad got this revelation.

1499
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:10,360
Wilfred Woodruff got this
revelation.

1500
01:27:11,200 --> 01:27:14,440
You know, we tried to get rid of
this in 1888 and the whole

1501
01:27:14,440 --> 01:27:18,200
quorum shot it down.
And then, you know, the 1889

1502
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:20,920
revelation, you know, why?
Why are we doing this?

1503
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:23,480
And he kept hammering.
They knew about it.

1504
01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:28,640
They all knew about it.
Yep, well before 1933.

1505
01:27:28,720 --> 01:27:31,400
And Frank Y Taylor gave him the
original copy well before that.

1506
01:27:31,400 --> 01:27:35,040
They knew about it.
I mean, even on another level,

1507
01:27:35,040 --> 01:27:38,560
besides John W Taylor walking it
into a quorum meeting when he

1508
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:41,040
was a member of the quorum,
after he was a member of the

1509
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:47,360
quorum, he brought it into a his
excommunication trial in 1911.

1510
01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:49,560
And they talked about it, right?
Grant was there.

1511
01:27:50,320 --> 01:27:56,320
Yep, Francis M Lyman was there.
Jared and Clark wasn't there.

1512
01:27:56,320 --> 01:27:58,440
But the rest?
Of them were there David O

1513
01:27:58,440 --> 01:28:00,400
McKay.
David O McKay was there.

1514
01:28:00,400 --> 01:28:03,720
Orson F Whitney was there, you
know.

1515
01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:08,440
Roger Clawson was there, you
know, Orson F Whitney and Roger

1516
01:28:08,440 --> 01:28:11,640
Clawson being in the camp of
John W Taylor, but being not

1517
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:14,320
being able to help help him at
all, right, You know.

1518
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:18,960
There is so much wrong with this
right?

1519
01:28:19,480 --> 01:28:27,640
And the apologists have come out
now and they're beating the same

1520
01:28:27,640 --> 01:28:31,480
drum.
It's one of two arguments. 1 is

1521
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:34,360
wasn't canonized.
It's not canonized.

1522
01:28:34,360 --> 01:28:36,000
Everyone relax.
It's not canonized.

1523
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:39,720
I don't think the Lord cares.
No.

1524
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:45,120
The Lord gave a revelation to
the man in charge at that time,

1525
01:28:45,600 --> 01:28:48,360
and it was important enough for
him to write it down.

1526
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:51,800
Now let's look at the claim.
Well, he never canonized it.

1527
01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:54,120
The dude died in hiding.
He was.

1528
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:57,040
He was on the run.
The dude died in hiding.

1529
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:03,160
Next, as you and I have
discussed over approximately 12

1530
01:29:03,160 --> 01:29:07,680
to 13 hours of audio during the
John W Taylor episodes.

1531
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:12,760
Well, of course, John, John W
Taylor isn't going to go make a

1532
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:17,120
big stink about it because
during a lot of that time the

1533
01:29:17,120 --> 01:29:22,560
church is still continuing post
manifesto plural marriages.

1534
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:25,680
They're just doing it on the
down low so it doesn't need.

1535
01:29:25,880 --> 01:29:28,440
Was it till about 19 O six they
really turned?

1536
01:29:28,680 --> 01:29:31,200
Right.
So he didn't need to to be on

1537
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:32,080
the drum.
And it was.

1538
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:35,520
It would have been a
disadvantage for him to do so

1539
01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:39,800
publicly when the church was
still doing the right thing.

1540
01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:43,320
So no, he's not going to
sabotage himself.

1541
01:29:43,720 --> 01:29:46,880
So those are the reasons that
was never presented to the

1542
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:51,400
membership for, for
canonization.

1543
01:29:52,440 --> 01:29:54,120
So let's let's just get that out
of the way.

1544
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:59,160
Also, I'm going to hold some of
those same people that made that

1545
01:29:59,960 --> 01:30:03,760
that specific loophole to jump
through.

1546
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:05,960
I'm going to, I'm going to hold
your feet to the fire.

1547
01:30:06,400 --> 01:30:09,840
Because those same people, I've
heard them say over and over

1548
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:17,640
again that that the the Family
Proclamation is scripture.

1549
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:21,480
But wait a second.
It's not canonized.

1550
01:30:21,840 --> 01:30:23,600
Oh, there you go.
Yes.

1551
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:24,880
So you're right.
And I think.

1552
01:30:24,880 --> 01:30:27,120
All, all I'm it should be.
Yeah, it should be.

1553
01:30:27,120 --> 01:30:28,360
It should be.
I have.

1554
01:30:28,440 --> 01:30:31,720
I would line up tomorrow as a
fundamentalist outside the LDS

1555
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:35,080
Church and say, I'll say it now
that was inspired.

1556
01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:36,800
Sure.
That was inspired.

1557
01:30:37,200 --> 01:30:38,960
OK.
I have no problem saying that.

1558
01:30:39,480 --> 01:30:42,800
But my generation wants to do
away with it because of our

1559
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:43,720
politics.
Right.

1560
01:30:44,480 --> 01:30:47,440
But what I'm saying to the
apologists is I've heard you say

1561
01:30:47,440 --> 01:30:50,040
that document in Scripture, but
it's not canonized.

1562
01:30:50,480 --> 01:30:51,760
Interesting.
So you know what?

1563
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:54,480
You've called it a revelation,
but it's not canonized.

1564
01:30:54,680 --> 01:30:56,400
So I'm going to hold your feet
to the fire.

1565
01:30:57,160 --> 01:31:00,680
If one is good and one is bad,
let's call it what it is.

1566
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:06,920
You don't like Exhibit 1886
because it causes you all sorts

1567
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:10,120
of problems with authority
claim, but you're totally good

1568
01:31:10,120 --> 01:31:14,200
calling something else a valid
revelation and scripture that's

1569
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:16,360
not canonized because you know
what?

1570
01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:20,960
It suits our 21st century
sensibilities.

1571
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:24,920
But you don't get it both ways.
You've got to make a choice.

1572
01:31:25,760 --> 01:31:31,720
Second, the other one I've heard
is that, well, if the key holder

1573
01:31:33,880 --> 01:31:36,400
doesn't sanction it, it doesn't
count.

1574
01:31:37,360 --> 01:31:40,080
Well, which key holder?
John Taylor was a key holder

1575
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:41,440
when you received the
revelation?

1576
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:46,760
Yes, he.
Was yes he was, but I forgot

1577
01:31:47,400 --> 01:31:50,160
Revelation doesn't age like
comic books.

1578
01:31:50,280 --> 01:31:53,960
Yeah, that's right.
So these mechanisms that they're

1579
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:58,600
using, if you think about them
for a little bit, not deep, just

1580
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:02,240
a little bit, you're going to
see the fallacy come forward.

1581
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:04,360
Yeah, and here's what I'm going
to say.

1582
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:07,720
The middle ground, that Gray
area that we'd like to inhabit

1583
01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:10,960
for so long, that ground is
falling out beneath your feet

1584
01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:17,400
right now.
So now the question has to be

1585
01:32:17,400 --> 01:32:22,120
asked, is the LDS Church an
apostasy?

1586
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:28,960
I think it has been for quite a
while at this moment, yeah.

1587
01:32:29,880 --> 01:32:32,120
And it's tough.
It is Tiger up.

1588
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:34,640
I grew up in the church, in a
modernist church.

1589
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:37,920
But even in my life, you know, I
didn't grow up during these

1590
01:32:37,920 --> 01:32:39,760
times.
But even in the short years

1591
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:42,360
since I finished my mission,
there's been so much that I

1592
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:48,320
could, even if that was it, I
would be concerned, yes, I would

1593
01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:51,200
be very, very concerned.
You have with the Orwellian

1594
01:32:51,200 --> 01:32:56,360
doublespeak.
Yes, we have proof.

1595
01:32:56,360 --> 01:33:01,000
That an organization was willing
to lie to its members for

1596
01:33:01,000 --> 01:33:05,440
political expediency.
I don't know how much more you

1597
01:33:05,440 --> 01:33:07,360
need.
I don't know.

1598
01:33:07,360 --> 01:33:11,280
Whales has to be done before you
start asking some hard questions

1599
01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:13,440
and.
Furthermore, Moroni testifies

1600
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:15,880
going back to that he has seen
our day.

1601
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:19,480
Ye pollutions, ye hypocrites,
why will you pollute the Holy

1602
01:33:19,480 --> 01:33:22,040
Church of God?
When was the Catholic Church

1603
01:33:22,040 --> 01:33:25,560
ever the Holy Church of God?
According to Mormon theology, it

1604
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:27,360
wasn't.
And that, again, that's not a

1605
01:33:27,360 --> 01:33:31,040
slam on Catholics.
As I'm getting older day by day,

1606
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:34,600
I like Catholicism a lot for for
right for a lot of reasons.

1607
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:39,320
But I don't adopt the Trinity.
I don't know the Catechism.

1608
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:41,920
I don't.
I like certain things.

1609
01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:45,040
I want to go to a Mass and look
and see what I can glean from

1610
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:45,920
it.
In fact, I've never done that.

1611
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:47,320
It's one thing I want to do
really bad.

1612
01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:53,960
But according to Mormon
theology, as you say, there was

1613
01:33:53,960 --> 01:33:55,840
never the holy Church of God.
No.

1614
01:33:56,400 --> 01:33:58,320
Yeah, I can.
I dive into stuff like this all

1615
01:33:58,320 --> 01:33:59,920
the time now.
That's what I that's what I

1616
01:33:59,920 --> 01:34:01,520
love.
But like, for example, the Pope

1617
01:34:01,520 --> 01:34:05,120
is called or he sits in the seat
of Peter, right.

1618
01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:08,200
Essentially, the idea being that
Peter was the first Bishop of

1619
01:34:08,200 --> 01:34:10,480
Rome.
Well, are you aware that the

1620
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:12,840
there's a Coptic Catholic Church
in Egypt?

1621
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:14,560
I am.
And they have a Pope.

1622
01:34:14,840 --> 01:34:18,480
Yep.
And that he's Pope because Peter

1623
01:34:18,480 --> 01:34:20,840
was Bishop of Alexandria.
Yep.

1624
01:34:21,200 --> 01:34:24,400
And also there was a there, I
don't know if there's currently

1625
01:34:24,400 --> 01:34:27,280
a Pope there, but there was a
Pope in in Antioch.

1626
01:34:28,160 --> 01:34:30,400
And it was because Peter was the
Bishop of Antioch.

1627
01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:35,400
So there's all these competing
traditions trying to claim Peter

1628
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:37,680
is the guy who is the Pope or
the Bishop of that city.

1629
01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:40,280
And they lay claim to it.
Right now, Rome's the biggest

1630
01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:42,760
one.
And those churches are not, are

1631
01:34:42,760 --> 01:34:44,040
not in communion with each
other.

1632
01:34:45,440 --> 01:34:47,280
But they can't all be true.
Right.

1633
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:48,600
Because the Bishop doesn't work
that way.

1634
01:34:48,680 --> 01:34:50,600
No, no.
No.

1635
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:58,600
Here I can, you know what?
I can respect the Catholics

1636
01:34:58,600 --> 01:35:00,640
because at least they're willing
to have these debates.

1637
01:35:00,720 --> 01:35:03,080
Sure.
We don't get the if you're in

1638
01:35:03,080 --> 01:35:04,960
the LDS Church, you don't get
these debates.

1639
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:09,320
We don't, you know, it's, it's
an interesting thing a lot, you

1640
01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:14,040
know, Catholic doctrine suggests
papal infallibility.

1641
01:35:14,120 --> 01:35:17,680
It does.
Mormons say no, our guy can be

1642
01:35:17,680 --> 01:35:20,800
wrong.
But what's interesting is if you

1643
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:25,120
look to organizations, even
though papal infallibility is a

1644
01:35:25,120 --> 01:35:27,400
thing, nobody treats it like
that.

1645
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:34,440
And then in Mormonism, we claim
that prophetic infallibility

1646
01:35:34,440 --> 01:35:38,320
isn't a thing, but then we
ascribe infallibility.

1647
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:40,040
To it.
The joke I heard from one of my

1648
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:43,600
home teachers that I love to
repeat is Catholics say the Pope

1649
01:35:43,600 --> 01:35:45,840
is infallible and no one
believes it.

1650
01:35:46,480 --> 01:35:49,680
Mormons say the prophet is
fallible and no one believes it.

1651
01:35:49,840 --> 01:35:54,200
Yeah, yeah.
And and I I can at least respect

1652
01:35:54,200 --> 01:35:57,120
Catholicism for at least having
the debate.

1653
01:35:57,120 --> 01:35:58,720
So there's an interesting
parallel to this.

1654
01:35:58,720 --> 01:35:59,720
I don't know how to pronounce
this.

1655
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:02,200
I'm probably butchering it, but
there's been a position since

1656
01:36:02,200 --> 01:36:05,240
about 1968 in Catholic Church.
I think it's called set

1657
01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:09,280
eventualism.
I don't know if I'm pronouncing

1658
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:14,600
that right, but the idea is so
because of papal infallibility,

1659
01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:18,880
that doctrine, there cannot be a
heretic that is Pope, like the

1660
01:36:18,880 --> 01:36:25,760
Pope cannot commit heresy.
But in like 1961 or something,

1661
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:28,680
they were like the Vatican 2
Council and other things, and

1662
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:30,600
they changed a bunch of stuff.
And there was a bunch of

1663
01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:33,600
Catholic churches in like South
America and other places like

1664
01:36:33,600 --> 01:36:36,680
Spain.
I want to say that they broke

1665
01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:39,200
from the Catholic Church.
A lot of that had to do with the

1666
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:40,800
Mass in Latin.
It was.

1667
01:36:40,800 --> 01:36:46,280
It was and this set event set
eventuous or set eventualist

1668
01:36:46,920 --> 01:36:49,400
position.
What it means is it's a Latin

1669
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:52,280
phrase means the the Holy See is
empty.

1670
01:36:52,280 --> 01:36:54,040
It's vacant.
Interesting.

1671
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:56,520
It's been vacant since that
decision.

1672
01:36:56,800 --> 01:37:00,320
They're still Catholic, they're
not in communion, and they

1673
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:04,400
operate autonomously under their
own doctrinal laws.

1674
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:08,880
Because the the Holy See in Rome
is vacant because the person

1675
01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:11,000
pretending to be Pope is a
heretic and the Pope can't be a

1676
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:16,640
heretic because the Pope since
1968 has been, you know,

1677
01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:18,960
promoting heresy.
Yeah, right.

1678
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:23,280
And so none of those popes are,
according to that view, are

1679
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:26,440
valid.
Now that's kind of a thing that

1680
01:37:26,440 --> 01:37:28,360
we should have in our own
framework here in this

1681
01:37:28,360 --> 01:37:30,600
discussion.
You know, people want to say the

1682
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:33,080
president of the church, the
prophet, the living key holder,

1683
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:37,640
the one man.
Let's just say that that premise

1684
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:39,520
is true.
That seats empty right now

1685
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:43,320
because there's no one to fill
it because the keys have been

1686
01:37:43,320 --> 01:37:45,600
turned against him.
And to put it in the

1687
01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:47,600
nomenclature of Joseph Smith,
right.

1688
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:50,480
You know, Joseph told John
Taylor in Nauvoo that if you do

1689
01:37:50,480 --> 01:37:53,640
not enter this principle, plural
marriage, the keys will be

1690
01:37:53,640 --> 01:37:55,160
turned against us.
What does that mean?

1691
01:37:55,160 --> 01:37:58,920
Well, he opens a door or opens a
lock or locks it.

1692
01:37:59,920 --> 01:38:03,480
For the key to be turned against
us is to be shut out to have it

1693
01:38:03,480 --> 01:38:05,320
locked.
Right, Right.

1694
01:38:06,480 --> 01:38:07,880
Yeah.
So I think that there's a good

1695
01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:10,600
parallel to draw with
Catholicism right there in our

1696
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:14,160
position.
You know that there's someone

1697
01:38:14,160 --> 01:38:17,040
that sits in the office of
president of the church, but

1698
01:38:17,040 --> 01:38:19,520
it's really vacant.
Well.

1699
01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:24,000
It's really empty.
I don't like making those claims

1700
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:26,920
without showing the receipts.
OK.

1701
01:38:27,080 --> 01:38:28,440
And I think we should show the
receipts.

1702
01:38:28,440 --> 01:38:32,800
What do you have in mind?
What was one thing that was

1703
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:37,280
unique to Mormonism among all
Christianity at that time?

1704
01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:44,040
That God still talks to us.
That God has a message for his

1705
01:38:44,040 --> 01:38:47,960
people.
He's not done so.

1706
01:38:47,960 --> 01:38:50,880
Continuing revelation was a
massive thing.

1707
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:55,120
Right until a certain point
around this time, in fact,

1708
01:38:55,120 --> 01:38:57,040
because I don't know of any
other president of the church

1709
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:00,240
has received revelation.
When was that has come out since

1710
01:39:00,240 --> 01:39:02,520
Woodruff?
There it is.

1711
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:07,520
OK, Now I want to be clear.
I do believe did Joseph F Smith

1712
01:39:07,520 --> 01:39:11,720
have that experience he said he
had, but is that the?

1713
01:39:11,720 --> 01:39:13,920
Visionary One.
Yeah, that's now DNC 1:30.

1714
01:39:13,920 --> 01:39:17,960
Eight, yes, but that's a that's
a visionary experience, right?

1715
01:39:17,960 --> 01:39:21,120
It is, and there's nothing there
that really reveals new.

1716
01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:24,800
It doesn't, because I found an
1868 talk, a talk from Brigham

1717
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:26,760
Young on the Journal of
Discourses, that lays out

1718
01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:28,280
everything that's in that
revelation, Right?

1719
01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:30,920
And that's my alluding to the
fact about how this work,

1720
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:33,560
missionary work in the spirit
world is done.

1721
01:39:33,760 --> 01:39:36,160
Right.
Right, Young talks about that.

1722
01:39:36,600 --> 01:39:41,040
Right. 50 years before Joseph F
Smith has his vision on it.

1723
01:39:41,080 --> 01:39:44,960
Yep. 100% So again, I believe
it's true.

1724
01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:48,400
I believe Joseph F Smith
absolutely had that experience,

1725
01:39:49,360 --> 01:39:52,520
but I don't count that as
revelation.

1726
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:55,000
And it wasn't canonized until
1985.

1727
01:39:55,080 --> 01:39:57,800
Right, right.
Nothing.

1728
01:39:58,440 --> 01:40:02,000
Nothing was quote revealed that
was new, that wasn't there

1729
01:40:02,000 --> 01:40:02,960
before, really.
Right.

1730
01:40:03,000 --> 01:40:09,240
And it took them, it took them
67 years to canonize it.

1731
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:18,680
Yep, OK, the eighteen 8989 or 88
hold on, let me.

1732
01:40:18,680 --> 01:40:21,440
The the wolf privilege of one.
Yeah, that's 89.

1733
01:40:21,960 --> 01:40:24,160
Is it 89?
About not making concession or

1734
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:24,800
compromise.
Yep.

1735
01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:29,160
That's the one.
Yep, November. 24th Yep. 1889

1736
01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:34,280
OK, that was the last.
Thus saith the Lord revelation

1737
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:37,000
that came.
Now, if you want to go out on a

1738
01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:40,680
limb and call the manifesto a
revelation.

1739
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:42,000
It's not in the same language.
It's.

1740
01:40:42,400 --> 01:40:44,800
Sure.
Not right to whom it may

1741
01:40:44,800 --> 01:40:47,280
concern.
Doesn't concern me.

1742
01:40:47,400 --> 01:40:54,960
The Lord never speaks Lord, Lord
never, never makes like you

1743
01:40:54,960 --> 01:40:57,120
never hear the Lord's voice
first person.

1744
01:40:58,520 --> 01:41:00,920
Well, people say, well, it's a
different, it's a different

1745
01:41:00,920 --> 01:41:07,760
revelator, right?
OK, but the 1889 revelation is

1746
01:41:07,760 --> 01:41:09,440
the Lord talking in the first
person.

1747
01:41:09,680 --> 01:41:12,720
And guess what, it's the same
guy that that signs the

1748
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:18,440
manifesto.
So revelation, it stops.

1749
01:41:18,680 --> 01:41:22,400
Yeah, in 1890 the Church has not
had another.

1750
01:41:22,400 --> 01:41:24,400
Thus saith the Lord revelation
since.

1751
01:41:24,640 --> 01:41:27,640
So, and that's interesting too,
right?

1752
01:41:27,640 --> 01:41:31,800
Because so this, do you remember
what happened with when Joseph

1753
01:41:31,800 --> 01:41:33,840
Smith died, right?
And the First Presidency is

1754
01:41:33,840 --> 01:41:36,160
dissolved.
And if you look at the history

1755
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:40,680
of the church compiled by BH
Roberts, you see like volume 1,

1756
01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:44,440
volume 2, volume 3, Volume 4,
it's like a period Joseph Smith.

1757
01:41:44,480 --> 01:41:49,440
And like the last one, Volume 6
is under Apostolic interregnum.

1758
01:41:52,920 --> 01:41:55,000
I find that as an interesting
term, right?

1759
01:41:55,520 --> 01:41:59,320
And we see potentially a way to
phrase what's happened in our

1760
01:41:59,320 --> 01:42:03,360
movement too, with the seat
comparing it to the Catholic

1761
01:42:03,360 --> 01:42:07,200
Church being empty.
We see a council of friends

1762
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:10,400
emerge, rise as an Apostolic
interregnum, just like the

1763
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:13,560
apostles of the Formula 12 did
with Brigham Young after Joseph

1764
01:42:13,560 --> 01:42:14,560
died.
Right.

1765
01:42:15,200 --> 01:42:18,400
To kind of fill the space.
It's not one man, but it's

1766
01:42:18,400 --> 01:42:22,320
something to try to give a
structure in a world without

1767
01:42:22,320 --> 01:42:25,440
structure.
Yeah, where with the framework

1768
01:42:25,440 --> 01:42:28,640
and the architecture is
collapsed because of apostasy,

1769
01:42:28,680 --> 01:42:31,720
something new.
And I think that the priesthood

1770
01:42:31,720 --> 01:42:35,440
has the ability to organize
itself that way when it's

1771
01:42:35,440 --> 01:42:38,840
necessary, right?
And so we've been in a very

1772
01:42:38,840 --> 01:42:44,280
prolonged interregnum period.
That's how I would kind of

1773
01:42:44,280 --> 01:42:47,320
frame, right.
And we're looking for further

1774
01:42:47,320 --> 01:42:53,040
light knowledge, I would say.
And you know, Joseph Musser and

1775
01:42:53,040 --> 01:42:56,720
several others from that
tradition are the last people

1776
01:42:56,720 --> 01:43:02,160
I'm aware of to that weren't
crazy claim that they've had

1777
01:43:02,160 --> 01:43:05,240
experiences with a Savior.
For example, you know the three

1778
01:43:05,240 --> 01:43:10,320
that I'm aware of are Joseph Guy
Musser and Rulon Allred.

1779
01:43:11,000 --> 01:43:12,360
Right.
Fit.

1780
01:43:12,800 --> 01:43:14,080
That's all.
All that I know of.

1781
01:43:14,440 --> 01:43:16,440
Right.
Well, we have.

1782
01:43:18,120 --> 01:43:20,040
I can't remember which apostle
it said it.

1783
01:43:20,040 --> 01:43:22,600
It may have been Oaks.
It was Oaks.

1784
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:25,000
It was, it was just a few years
ago where he said.

1785
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:30,080
Anybody on on the Quorum of the
12 who claims to have had a

1786
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:31,840
personal audience with the
Savior?

1787
01:43:31,880 --> 01:43:38,160
Or an Angel or anything like.
That right now, I'm sorry, a big

1788
01:43:38,200 --> 01:43:43,040
thrust in Mormonism was Joseph
telling people, and I'm

1789
01:43:43,040 --> 01:43:46,560
paraphrasing here, I've had my
experience with deity.

1790
01:43:47,480 --> 01:43:50,400
You can have one too.
It was, it was a huge, a huge

1791
01:43:50,440 --> 01:43:52,840
part of it.
OK, that's gone now.

1792
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:56,240
Even the leadership isn't having
those.

1793
01:43:57,360 --> 01:44:01,120
OK, so again, you're going to
know them by their fruit.

1794
01:44:01,680 --> 01:44:04,920
And I'm sorry if you are not
encountering the divine, maybe

1795
01:44:04,920 --> 01:44:08,600
not a personal visitation, but
if you are not seeing the divine

1796
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:12,360
move in your life in a very
significant way, you have to ask

1797
01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:14,720
yourself, why am I not seeing
that fruit?

1798
01:44:15,320 --> 01:44:23,600
And institutionally, there's no
reason if if, if the church is

1799
01:44:23,600 --> 01:44:29,400
doing exactly what it's supposed
to do, there is no reason why

1800
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:32,760
there shouldn't be new
revelation coming forward on the

1801
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:36,880
regular.
But it the heavens have been

1802
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:39,560
sealed.
Yep, and they've been quiet.

1803
01:44:41,400 --> 01:44:44,280
So I was thinking, I don't know
how if I can go deep on this

1804
01:44:44,280 --> 01:44:46,920
because it's just thoughts and
trying to articulate them.

1805
01:44:46,920 --> 01:44:49,280
But you know, in the church
structure you have like a

1806
01:44:49,360 --> 01:44:52,080
horizontal axis of hierarchy,
right?

1807
01:44:52,080 --> 01:44:57,200
Where you have like 70s and high
priests and the bishops and

1808
01:44:57,400 --> 01:45:01,080
things are kind of horizontally
organized, right?

1809
01:45:02,440 --> 01:45:09,760
But there's this vertical axis
of authority that seems to be

1810
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:15,720
capped now at, you know, this
they say, they say they, they

1811
01:45:15,720 --> 01:45:19,720
make the profit almost like this
Demi Messianic kind of figure.

1812
01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:24,000
But really, in my opinion, as
we've discussed, the evidence

1813
01:45:24,040 --> 01:45:27,880
shows in the words of Hebrew J
Grant, the heavens are brass to

1814
01:45:27,880 --> 01:45:30,400
me.
Yeah, that vertical axis no

1815
01:45:30,400 --> 01:45:33,200
longer goes past a certain
point, that vertical hierarchy,

1816
01:45:33,480 --> 01:45:36,000
right.
And into the heavens that we can

1817
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:39,040
reach up, or the heavens that
the heavens are reaching down.

1818
01:45:40,040 --> 01:45:43,200
Even fundamentalism.
I'm sorry there's been some lack

1819
01:45:43,400 --> 01:45:45,320
of that very thing that we're
talking about.

1820
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:47,600
Right.
We're going on tradition, we're

1821
01:45:47,600 --> 01:45:49,600
standing on our ground on what
was revealed.

1822
01:45:50,280 --> 01:45:54,240
But there's been less
transcendence, yes.

1823
01:45:54,400 --> 01:45:57,360
I, I would agree with that.
I'd agree with that.

1824
01:45:57,440 --> 01:46:01,440
I, I think, I think there are
steps now being taken, right.

1825
01:46:01,440 --> 01:46:04,640
And, and I'll say this, since
leaving the church and coming

1826
01:46:04,640 --> 01:46:08,680
into fundamentalism, I have had
way more experiences now than I

1827
01:46:08,680 --> 01:46:10,160
was before.
OK, sure.

1828
01:46:10,160 --> 01:46:11,400
Right.
No dispute there.

1829
01:46:11,560 --> 01:46:14,440
And, and I think you would say
the same thing, right?

1830
01:46:14,440 --> 01:46:18,440
I yeah, sure I would.
I absolutely would say the same.

1831
01:46:18,440 --> 01:46:21,560
I I would not be here without
personal experiences that I've

1832
01:46:21,560 --> 01:46:23,040
had.
Right, right.

1833
01:46:23,160 --> 01:46:26,320
I wouldn't have had the strength
to commit social suicide, to

1834
01:46:27,360 --> 01:46:31,360
talk to my true blue through and
through Mormon family about all

1835
01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:34,720
these things.
And you know, thankfully I have

1836
01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:38,480
a very good family that did not
ostracize me over this, but I

1837
01:46:38,480 --> 01:46:42,880
didn't know how I would play it.
No, no, cause 'cause we're,

1838
01:46:43,560 --> 01:46:47,600
yeah, I mean, look for guys who
And look, that's why I have way

1839
01:46:47,600 --> 01:46:51,920
more respect for guys like you,
my wife Amber, than I do for

1840
01:46:51,920 --> 01:46:54,560
myself, right?
Because quite frankly, I didn't

1841
01:46:54,560 --> 01:46:57,080
have to give anything up.
I'm, I'm going to be real

1842
01:46:57,080 --> 01:46:59,120
honest, right?
I had to go have a couple

1843
01:47:00,680 --> 01:47:04,280
meetings that were probably more
uncomfortable for the guys I was

1844
01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:08,040
meeting with than they were for
me because I'm far too obtuse

1845
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:14,440
and vocal, right?
But you had to worry about that,

1846
01:47:14,480 --> 01:47:16,280
you know?
Gosh, I got to go tell my dad.

1847
01:47:16,440 --> 01:47:18,720
Yeah, I did.
I got to talk to my grandpa,

1848
01:47:19,080 --> 01:47:21,560
right?
I got to talk to whoever in my

1849
01:47:21,560 --> 01:47:23,760
family and I'm upsetting the
apple cart, right?

1850
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:26,560
Oh dude, family and friends and
their families.

1851
01:47:27,240 --> 01:47:32,560
Right, right.
And what was the line that they

1852
01:47:32,560 --> 01:47:36,920
beat us with your apostates?
Well, what's the technical

1853
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:40,880
definition of apostate, right?
The abandoning of a doctrine or

1854
01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:42,200
a belief?
Yes.

1855
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:44,400
I'm not the one who's abandoned
anything.

1856
01:47:44,440 --> 01:47:50,200
No, no, we are standing on the
same principles that Joseph

1857
01:47:50,200 --> 01:47:53,600
wined out, the same principles
that Brigham stood on, the same

1858
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:57,560
principles that Taylor stood on.
To a large extent, even Woodruff

1859
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:02,480
still stood on, albeit on the
down low and capitulated and

1860
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:06,520
that snowballed.
But nonetheless, still the same

1861
01:48:06,520 --> 01:48:09,720
principles we stood on, our
standing on are the ones that

1862
01:48:09,720 --> 01:48:14,560
Joseph revealed.
Now for the leadership of the

1863
01:48:14,560 --> 01:48:16,200
LDS church.
You want to get rid of Joseph,

1864
01:48:16,600 --> 01:48:17,960
Do it.
Be done with it.

1865
01:48:17,960 --> 01:48:19,480
I think it'd be healthy at this
point.

1866
01:48:20,320 --> 01:48:24,320
The bit essentially they never
will in Maine, but you already

1867
01:48:24,320 --> 01:48:27,320
see it because, you know, I'd
ask someone, For example, when

1868
01:48:27,320 --> 01:48:30,040
was the last time you were
taught out of a sermon that

1869
01:48:30,040 --> 01:48:32,480
Joseph Smith gave?
When was the last time you read

1870
01:48:32,480 --> 01:48:35,120
any discourse that you gave?
That is never part of the

1871
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:37,720
curriculum.
You get the Book of Mormon and

1872
01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:41,480
the Bible, sometimes the
Doctrine Covenants, but that's

1873
01:48:41,480 --> 01:48:43,800
it.
And oh, and then whatever

1874
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:45,920
conference talks there were the
last six months.

1875
01:48:46,080 --> 01:48:50,360
So I, I've got, I've got some,
some, I don't have the numbers

1876
01:48:50,360 --> 01:48:56,720
in front of me, but I just read
an article over the last seven

1877
01:48:56,720 --> 01:49:02,360
years, the amount of times that
people in conference are quoting

1878
01:49:02,360 --> 01:49:06,200
from the Book of Mormon has
decreased by like 35%.

1879
01:49:06,200 --> 01:49:10,360
I'm not surprised.
And the Bible has gone up.

1880
01:49:10,400 --> 01:49:12,320
Now, I'm not knocking the Bible.
I love the Bible.

1881
01:49:12,320 --> 01:49:13,480
I love the Bible.
It's my favorite book.

1882
01:49:13,920 --> 01:49:17,720
The Old Testament's great, but
that's not the keystone of our

1883
01:49:17,720 --> 01:49:19,800
religion, per the dispensation
head.

1884
01:49:20,240 --> 01:49:24,160
That's the Book of Mormon.
Now, if the Book of Mormon is

1885
01:49:24,160 --> 01:49:28,520
for our day.
That makes sense why you want to

1886
01:49:28,520 --> 01:49:31,720
deemphasize it, especially when
Morona is saying I've seen your

1887
01:49:31,720 --> 01:49:36,960
day you wicked pollutions.
You know what was quoted even

1888
01:49:36,960 --> 01:49:39,280
less than the doctor?
I mean, than the Book of Mormon

1889
01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:41,120
Doctrine Covenants.
Sure.

1890
01:49:41,920 --> 01:49:44,080
Why is that?
Well, there's some uncomfortable

1891
01:49:44,080 --> 01:49:45,960
things in there, right?
Yay, yay.

1892
01:49:45,960 --> 01:49:47,800
All is well in Zion.
Yeah.

1893
01:49:47,800 --> 01:49:50,040
Well, yeah, you got polygamies
in there.

1894
01:49:50,040 --> 01:49:52,720
You got United Orders, law of
consecrations in there.

1895
01:49:52,720 --> 01:49:57,240
We're not doing either of those.
No, those are questions.

1896
01:49:58,520 --> 01:50:02,640
Questions we don't want asked.
So I think we've laid out a

1897
01:50:02,640 --> 01:50:09,080
pretty strong case here.
I cringed at having to do this

1898
01:50:09,080 --> 01:50:16,880
episode.
But at some point, if I can't

1899
01:50:16,880 --> 01:50:20,440
call out what I see is truth and
error, what good am I?

1900
01:50:22,960 --> 01:50:27,800
And I know it's painful, right?
And, and this is one of the

1901
01:50:27,800 --> 01:50:33,160
reasons I brought you on
specifically because you went

1902
01:50:33,160 --> 01:50:41,760
through that fire and there's
going to be people that hurt not

1903
01:50:41,760 --> 01:50:43,640
just because of this episode.
They're already hurting.

1904
01:50:43,680 --> 01:50:50,680
I get the emails, I've got the
receipts and people are

1905
01:50:50,680 --> 01:50:56,880
wondering what to do now.
Yeah, as as they should.

1906
01:50:57,240 --> 01:51:03,120
Because don't wait it out here
again.

1907
01:51:06,720 --> 01:51:14,640
In 15 years, the endowment that
I took in the LDS Church, it's

1908
01:51:14,640 --> 01:51:18,040
gone.
The one covenant, The one.

1909
01:51:18,040 --> 01:51:20,320
That I got 10 years ago is gone,
yeah.

1910
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:27,280
Coal covenants are gone.
And what do I hear from the

1911
01:51:27,280 --> 01:51:30,600
apologists?
Well, the spirit of it is still

1912
01:51:30,600 --> 01:51:34,040
there.
Well, I'm sorry, Joseph Smith

1913
01:51:34,040 --> 01:51:40,360
said that the ordinances are not
to be altered or changed in any

1914
01:51:40,360 --> 01:51:44,280
way, and that all must be saved
on the same principles.

1915
01:51:44,800 --> 01:51:49,280
So if you're going to say that
it's OK that those exalting

1916
01:51:49,280 --> 01:51:53,600
ordinances are changed, you're
turning God into a specter of

1917
01:51:53,600 --> 01:51:55,400
persons.
You know, and you also have from

1918
01:51:55,400 --> 01:51:57,400
the one of the very first
stories in the Bible, the

1919
01:51:57,400 --> 01:52:00,560
illustration of this where Cain
changes the mode of operation

1920
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:03,960
for ordinances.
You know, the Angel revealed to

1921
01:52:03,960 --> 01:52:06,120
Adam, you sacrifice a lamb.
Why?

1922
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:09,080
Well, I don't know why it's in
similar to the only begotten.

1923
01:52:09,080 --> 01:52:13,920
Joseph Smith talks about this in
TPJS and it's the mode of faith.

1924
01:52:13,920 --> 01:52:17,040
It's the symbol to exercise
faith, and in Cain, offering a

1925
01:52:17,560 --> 01:52:21,080
sacrifice not according to the
symbol that leads you to

1926
01:52:21,080 --> 01:52:25,520
exercise faith in Christ doesn't
produce the faith necessary to

1927
01:52:25,520 --> 01:52:27,440
lead you to salvation, right?
Right.

1928
01:52:28,080 --> 01:52:32,680
And I can go deep on that, but
we see the results in that

1929
01:52:32,680 --> 01:52:34,680
story.
When you change that ordinance,

1930
01:52:36,280 --> 01:52:43,560
the sacrifice was rejected, OK,
What if it's extrapolating that

1931
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:45,840
beyond the fact that it's a
sacrifice, the fact that it's an

1932
01:52:45,840 --> 01:52:48,240
ordinance, What does that mean?
You change the ordinance, the

1933
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:52,520
ordinance is rejected.
Why is your countenance falling?

1934
01:52:55,360 --> 01:52:57,560
Do well.
If you do well, you will be

1935
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:00,200
accepted.
If not, sin lighteth at the

1936
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:04,520
door, and Satan desireth to have
thee, and you shall rule over

1937
01:53:04,520 --> 01:53:07,240
him.
That's the consequences for

1938
01:53:07,240 --> 01:53:12,120
changing the ordinances.
And we see some of that in the

1939
01:53:12,120 --> 01:53:14,560
temple too.
You know, if anyone who does not

1940
01:53:14,560 --> 01:53:17,240
live up to the covenants that
you make in the temple this day,

1941
01:53:17,440 --> 01:53:20,520
you will be in My power.
Right, right.

1942
01:53:21,000 --> 01:53:24,080
I just want to read this quote
by Joseph Smith because in this

1943
01:53:24,080 --> 01:53:27,320
regards, I think it's important.
This is what Joseph says on it.

1944
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:30,560
It was the design of the
councils of heaven before the

1945
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:34,240
world was that principles and
laws of the priesthood should be

1946
01:53:34,240 --> 01:53:36,640
predicated upon the gathering of
the people.

1947
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:40,280
In every age of the world.
Jesus did everything to gather

1948
01:53:40,280 --> 01:53:42,800
the people.
They would not be gathered, and

1949
01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:45,680
he therefore poured out curses
on upon them.

1950
01:53:46,200 --> 01:53:50,640
Ordinances instituted in the
heavens before the foundation of

1951
01:53:50,640 --> 01:53:54,440
the world, in the priesthood for
the salvation of men are not to

1952
01:53:54,440 --> 01:53:58,480
be altered or changed.
All must be saved on the same

1953
01:53:58,480 --> 01:54:01,600
principles.
So let's talk about what happens

1954
01:54:01,600 --> 01:54:07,200
if you decide you want to change
ordinances and you think that

1955
01:54:07,200 --> 01:54:10,960
somehow it's OK because times
have changed.

1956
01:54:12,600 --> 01:54:19,560
What you've done is you have
essentially tried to turn God

1957
01:54:19,560 --> 01:54:23,520
into someone he's not.
God tells us very clearly

1958
01:54:23,520 --> 01:54:26,680
through all of Scripture, I'm no
respecter of persons.

1959
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:31,160
You come to me, I'm going and
you do right.

1960
01:54:31,440 --> 01:54:36,360
You'll be blessed here.
We're saying we're special.

1961
01:54:36,920 --> 01:54:42,160
We're special.
We are so much more better than

1962
01:54:42,160 --> 01:54:46,480
our ancestors that the God that
God.

1963
01:54:46,480 --> 01:54:49,720
Respects us more.
Isaiah says.

1964
01:54:49,920 --> 01:54:52,760
The land is cursed and left
desolate because you have broken

1965
01:54:52,760 --> 01:54:56,480
the new and everlasting
covenant, which is what we've

1966
01:54:56,480 --> 01:55:00,560
done when we are initiating
people through the temple with

1967
01:55:00,560 --> 01:55:03,000
different, different oaths and
covenants and their ancestors

1968
01:55:03,040 --> 01:55:06,520
have been initiated with.
We're not under the same

1969
01:55:06,520 --> 01:55:08,320
covenant.
We've broken the chain.

1970
01:55:08,640 --> 01:55:11,920
Yeah.
Does that make sense?

1971
01:55:11,920 --> 01:55:14,720
It absolutely makes sense.
We're not going because we're

1972
01:55:14,720 --> 01:55:16,680
not making the same covenant.
We're not promised the same

1973
01:55:16,680 --> 01:55:20,520
result or the same destination
because we're not living the

1974
01:55:20,520 --> 01:55:23,080
same laws as other people who
preceded us.

1975
01:55:23,640 --> 01:55:29,000
Right.
And would it be fair?

1976
01:55:29,360 --> 01:55:35,200
Would it be in the mode of a
just God to make one person live

1977
01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:41,240
under a set of covenants to gain
exaltation but not required for

1978
01:55:41,240 --> 01:55:43,400
succeeding generations?
No, I would not.

1979
01:55:43,480 --> 01:55:46,920
You change the very nature you.
Change the variables.

1980
01:55:47,080 --> 01:55:50,200
God the the solutions don't.
Oh, it's different.

1981
01:55:50,280 --> 01:55:54,600
It's changed as well, right?
Yeah, you change the very you

1982
01:55:54,600 --> 01:56:00,240
assign to God an identity that
God himself says I am not.

1983
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:05,400
That's on top of changing the
Adam God doctrine where you

1984
01:56:05,400 --> 01:56:07,240
literally changed.
Who God was.

1985
01:56:07,440 --> 01:56:08,880
Who God was?
Yeah, no doubt.

1986
01:56:09,920 --> 01:56:15,680
So I think that that we have,
we've established the churches

1987
01:56:16,040 --> 01:56:20,560
in apostasy for those who don't
want to listen, that's fine.

1988
01:56:20,680 --> 01:56:23,360
Move on.
I I'm not your guy because I'm

1989
01:56:23,360 --> 01:56:25,280
going to keep that banging this
drum.

1990
01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:30,240
And I'm a guy who's defended the
LDS church when they've done

1991
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:35,320
right.
But now I want to speak to the

1992
01:56:35,320 --> 01:56:39,080
people who are still here, who
are still trying to figure out

1993
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:40,640
what to do.
And this is one of the reasons I

1994
01:56:40,640 --> 01:56:45,840
had Michael on, because he, like
myself, wasn't born into this.

1995
01:56:46,680 --> 01:56:52,640
He had to go find this.
So I'm going to ask you some

1996
01:56:52,640 --> 01:56:56,960
questions here.
When you found out something was

1997
01:56:56,960 --> 01:57:02,360
wrong, something's not right,
something's amiss, would you

1998
01:57:02,360 --> 01:57:10,400
feel at first terror right?
Impending doom to be a matter of

1999
01:57:10,400 --> 01:57:12,040
fact.
You know, it was that passage we

2000
01:57:12,040 --> 01:57:15,080
were reading that test or that
that litmus test given by Christ

2001
01:57:15,080 --> 01:57:18,400
in 3516.
You know, it talks about the

2002
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:23,040
fullness of the gospel being
taken and removed after these

2003
01:57:23,080 --> 01:57:27,920
criteria are realized.
And then those who don't repent,

2004
01:57:28,080 --> 01:57:32,000
they're treading down under the
warpath of the Lamanites.

2005
01:57:33,920 --> 01:57:37,160
That's what he says will happen.
That's the impending doom,

2006
01:57:37,160 --> 01:57:41,320
that's the result, whatever that
means.

2007
01:57:41,320 --> 01:57:44,320
I don't understand how that is
going to be fulfilled.

2008
01:57:44,320 --> 01:57:46,520
I don't pretend to know, but
it's there.

2009
01:57:47,160 --> 01:57:49,200
It's there.
It's a sword hanging over our

2010
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:53,640
head.
Right, right.

2011
01:57:54,800 --> 01:58:00,320
And my, my, my motivation was
there for to seek the fullness,

2012
01:58:00,600 --> 01:58:03,920
whatever that understand it.
First off, what does that mean?

2013
01:58:04,080 --> 01:58:07,880
So I'm not in that category
because that was something, you

2014
01:58:07,880 --> 01:58:09,840
know, it's like the Sword of
Damocles hanging over my head.

2015
01:58:09,840 --> 01:58:13,000
And it's like, OK, I know I want
the fullness.

2016
01:58:13,000 --> 01:58:14,680
I know I don't want to be
destroyed.

2017
01:58:17,280 --> 01:58:21,360
And I also felt like, OK, the
gospel needs to go to the

2018
01:58:21,360 --> 01:58:22,560
remnant too.
And that's part of that

2019
01:58:22,560 --> 01:58:27,840
question.
To do that, you need to

2020
01:58:27,840 --> 01:58:31,680
understand what the fullness is
and learning that the church

2021
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:35,280
couldn't offer that anymore or
would excommunicate me anyway

2022
01:58:35,280 --> 01:58:39,640
for pursuing it, you know, that
was an interesting thing to

2023
01:58:39,640 --> 01:58:42,760
wrestle with.
Part of me hoped at the time

2024
01:58:42,760 --> 01:58:45,160
that with President Nelson
coming in, we would kind of have

2025
01:58:46,040 --> 01:58:50,560
reformation among the church or,
or re emphasizing the old ways.

2026
01:58:50,560 --> 01:58:52,880
That's very opposite of what's
actually happened.

2027
01:58:52,880 --> 01:58:55,240
And so that's no longer a viable
solution in my mind.

2028
01:58:56,960 --> 01:59:00,800
And so theoretically, you're
either left with people who have

2029
01:59:00,800 --> 01:59:05,720
already come out of the church
with authority, or it will

2030
01:59:05,720 --> 01:59:08,160
happen in a future time, right?
That's it.

2031
01:59:08,160 --> 01:59:10,360
Those are your two options,
right?

2032
01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:15,360
Or a synthesis of both.
So in those moments of terror,

2033
01:59:16,200 --> 01:59:17,680
right?
And look, I don't want to

2034
01:59:17,680 --> 01:59:23,040
discount that feeling, right?
Because everything you thought

2035
01:59:23,040 --> 01:59:24,760
was solid has now turned to
liquid.

2036
01:59:25,200 --> 01:59:28,160
Yeah.
Under your very feet, the one

2037
01:59:28,160 --> 01:59:33,800
thing that you were taught your
whole life will be bedrock to

2038
01:59:33,800 --> 01:59:37,560
you and will never change has
become.

2039
01:59:37,560 --> 01:59:39,480
Like, no, especially when you're
in the mission field and you

2040
01:59:39,480 --> 01:59:41,640
realize that's when I read it
and it hit me.

2041
01:59:42,120 --> 01:59:44,840
I'm out preaching the gospel.
The gospel of what?

2042
01:59:45,040 --> 01:59:47,600
Well, it's the program that
they're teaching me to teach

2043
01:59:47,600 --> 01:59:50,960
other people.
And no, that's no, now no longer

2044
01:59:52,120 --> 01:59:54,560
like, am I bringing people into
an organization that's going to

2045
01:59:54,760 --> 01:59:56,560
fail or why?
Why am I going to do that?

2046
01:59:56,560 --> 01:59:57,840
I had to wrestle with that
question.

2047
01:59:58,120 --> 02:00:01,920
Yeah, yeah.
So what gave you hope?

2048
02:00:03,360 --> 02:00:07,960
The condition of that if you
repent, you'll be numbered with

2049
02:00:07,960 --> 02:00:10,960
the House of Israel.
Yeah, 13 But if the Gentiles

2050
02:00:10,960 --> 02:00:14,600
will repent and return unto me,
say it's the Father, behold,

2051
02:00:14,600 --> 02:00:18,480
they shall be numbered among my
people, O House of Israel.

2052
02:00:18,480 --> 02:00:21,200
And that fulfills the type in
the cycle we see at the

2053
02:00:21,200 --> 02:00:23,760
beginning of the Book of Mormon
with Lehi and Ishmael being LED

2054
02:00:23,760 --> 02:00:28,320
out of Jerusalem because they're
at odds with the priests and the

2055
02:00:28,320 --> 02:00:31,440
scribes in Jerusalem at the the
church, right in their day,

2056
02:00:31,440 --> 02:00:34,160
right?
The fullness is removed, taken

2057
02:00:34,160 --> 02:00:36,440
to a new promised land.
Yep.

2058
02:00:37,280 --> 02:00:41,440
And so symbolically, that's a
pattern that we can follow even

2059
02:00:41,440 --> 02:00:42,720
in our day.
Yep.

2060
02:00:44,120 --> 02:00:50,800
Yep, the Lord has remained true
to his promises.

2061
02:00:51,320 --> 02:00:53,320
The priesthood has not left the
earth.

2062
02:00:54,160 --> 02:00:57,760
The keys are still on the earth.
They may not be where you

2063
02:00:57,760 --> 02:01:01,800
thought they were, but they are
still here.

2064
02:01:04,000 --> 02:01:10,800
And it's a remarkable time in
which we live because now more

2065
02:01:10,800 --> 02:01:18,880
than ever, where those keys are
at are more accessible than

2066
02:01:18,880 --> 02:01:25,600
they've ever been before.
Look, 20 years ago, help. 15

2067
02:01:25,600 --> 02:01:29,360
years ago, 10 years ago, you
really had to go look at it.

2068
02:01:30,960 --> 02:01:35,400
I mean, you had to go find the
shady spots in which people did

2069
02:01:35,400 --> 02:01:42,480
not go to find this and fun and
and those who have the keys are

2070
02:01:42,480 --> 02:01:49,120
far more or or have someone who
has access to those keys are for

2071
02:01:49,120 --> 02:01:52,240
far more willing to speak now
than ever before.

2072
02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:57,560
Sure.
So if you fall in this camp, if

2073
02:01:57,560 --> 02:02:01,840
you're riding that line, you
feel it something's wrong.

2074
02:02:03,640 --> 02:02:09,920
The LDS Church is not and I
again, that's going to irritate

2075
02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:13,160
a lot of people.
The LDS church is not the only

2076
02:02:13,160 --> 02:02:16,040
purveyor of Mormonism on the
planet.

2077
02:02:17,840 --> 02:02:23,680
In fact, as we've just
discussed, I think they are the

2078
02:02:23,680 --> 02:02:27,400
ones the savior worried about.
And again, not the membership,

2079
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:38,640
but the leadership Also.
We see that there was a, I think

2080
02:02:38,640 --> 02:02:40,200
now we have, let me rephrase
this.

2081
02:02:40,240 --> 02:02:41,680
I want to make sure I get this
right.

2082
02:02:45,200 --> 02:02:53,480
Up until two weeks ago, the
contention could be made that

2083
02:02:53,480 --> 02:02:55,200
you know what?
The key stayed in the church.

2084
02:02:55,720 --> 02:02:57,440
Key stayed in the church.
They never left.

2085
02:02:58,160 --> 02:03:00,480
What does the 1886 revelation
show?

2086
02:03:01,160 --> 02:03:05,280
There was a Commission by John
Taylor to not surrender.

2087
02:03:05,280 --> 02:03:10,400
This took 100 years for that to
come forward.

2088
02:03:13,160 --> 02:03:17,240
But now I'm going to ask a real
tough question that everyone's

2089
02:03:17,240 --> 02:03:20,560
going to have to wrestle with
themselves.

2090
02:03:22,880 --> 02:03:29,760
What's more likely that John
Taylor received a revelation to

2091
02:03:29,760 --> 02:03:36,880
keep these things going and made
no effort to make sure a

2092
02:03:36,880 --> 02:03:39,280
structure is in place to make
sure that those things would

2093
02:03:39,280 --> 02:03:40,240
continue?
Right.

2094
02:03:41,040 --> 02:03:51,000
Or John Taylor, the man who took
a bullet for Joseph Smith, who

2095
02:03:51,000 --> 02:03:57,400
died in hiding for this
principle did set something up

2096
02:03:57,560 --> 02:04:04,440
to make sure sure now the church
was willing to lie, and I don't

2097
02:04:04,440 --> 02:04:14,120
want that to go.
Unemphasized.

2098
02:04:15,120 --> 02:04:19,440
It wasn't a mistake.
It wasn't an oversight.

2099
02:04:19,760 --> 02:04:25,120
It was intentional.
It was an intentional, deceitful

2100
02:04:25,440 --> 02:04:28,400
lie.
And you'll never be able to

2101
02:04:28,400 --> 02:04:33,200
convince me that it stopped with
J Reuben Clark, that J Reuben

2102
02:04:33,200 --> 02:04:36,200
Clark got up one day and went,
why?

2103
02:04:36,440 --> 02:04:37,760
It's all done.
It's all on me.

2104
02:04:37,760 --> 02:04:41,400
You guys are in the clear.
No, no, no.

2105
02:04:41,400 --> 02:04:44,840
Historians knew about this.
Oh, shoot, I know.

2106
02:04:44,880 --> 02:04:48,080
Fred Collier told me once that
he went to President Spencer

2107
02:04:48,080 --> 02:04:50,520
Woolly Kimball and talked to him
about it.

2108
02:04:50,760 --> 02:04:53,560
And he said, well, yeah, that
revelation is true, but the

2109
02:04:53,560 --> 02:04:55,600
Woollies had no right to publish
it.

2110
02:04:57,160 --> 02:05:00,160
And there we go.
What's this all really about?

2111
02:05:01,720 --> 02:05:03,840
This is about power.
Yeah.

2112
02:05:05,600 --> 02:05:13,480
So before I leave, I got I have
to tell this last story because

2113
02:05:13,480 --> 02:05:19,160
it's very recent and I haven't
got his permission to share it,

2114
02:05:19,160 --> 02:05:22,320
so I'm not going to name name.
Think you know him, though.

2115
02:05:24,360 --> 02:05:27,360
Young man serves a mission for
the church.

2116
02:05:28,240 --> 02:05:33,800
Very recent, comes home off of
his mission, does his homework,

2117
02:05:35,920 --> 02:05:38,000
goes oh crap this is bad, this
is wrong.

2118
02:05:40,560 --> 02:05:45,040
He gives a talk in sacrament
where he's not overt but there's

2119
02:05:45,040 --> 02:05:48,160
enough of a dog whistle, if you
will.

2120
02:05:48,160 --> 02:05:52,680
He's not heard signaling all the
keywords the you know, the

2121
02:05:52,680 --> 02:05:53,960
signal.
He's in the crowd though.

2122
02:05:54,000 --> 02:05:57,400
He used the word Mormon perhaps
when he perhaps the word Mormon.

2123
02:05:57,640 --> 02:06:02,120
Perhaps, but there were some
things where a Bishop and a

2124
02:06:02,120 --> 02:06:05,000
state president caught on to
what he was talking about.

2125
02:06:05,040 --> 02:06:06,880
It was Adam, God thinks.
Sure.

2126
02:06:08,960 --> 02:06:12,760
And they hauled his ass in and
they said you will make an

2127
02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:16,240
account and they said, do you
believe the Adam God doctrine?

2128
02:06:16,240 --> 02:06:20,680
He said, I do.
Now this is a convert to the LDS

2129
02:06:20,680 --> 02:06:24,680
Church.
I want to say as well, sure he's

2130
02:06:24,680 --> 02:06:27,480
not from Utah, but he's living
in Utah.

2131
02:06:28,720 --> 02:06:33,560
This is his whole support
mechanism in terms of social

2132
02:06:33,640 --> 02:06:38,080
sociality, right?
Then they asked him another

2133
02:06:38,080 --> 02:06:41,280
question.
Do you believe you should still

2134
02:06:41,280 --> 02:06:44,320
be practicing, John?
Practicing plural marriage?

2135
02:06:45,800 --> 02:06:48,480
Yes, I do.
That's enough.

2136
02:06:49,160 --> 02:06:59,640
We're going to excommunicate you
4 weeks ago, not a year, not six

2137
02:06:59,640 --> 02:07:06,120
months, not two months, four
weeks ago now, but.

2138
02:07:06,400 --> 02:07:08,840
Then, two weeks ago, the
revelation comes out.

2139
02:07:08,880 --> 02:07:15,360
The revelation drops.
So I have some thoughts on this.

2140
02:07:15,680 --> 02:07:24,000
OK, to put things we've, we've
talked about the cyclical nature

2141
02:07:24,000 --> 02:07:33,680
of apostasy, regeneration slash
restoration, authority, whatever

2142
02:07:34,240 --> 02:07:35,840
the leading way to a promised
land.

2143
02:07:36,000 --> 02:07:37,560
I want to give some more proofs
for this.

2144
02:07:37,960 --> 02:07:45,080
OK, OK, I want to put it in
relatively academic terms that I

2145
02:07:45,080 --> 02:07:48,000
think that this helps especially
with because I'm using Old

2146
02:07:48,000 --> 02:07:52,240
Testament context for this
proof.

2147
02:07:54,240 --> 02:07:58,760
Academics have noticed something
which have been termed or

2148
02:07:58,760 --> 02:08:05,080
relatively termed.
They've identified what they

2149
02:08:05,080 --> 02:08:11,360
call anti cultic prophets.
Now that's that word.

2150
02:08:11,360 --> 02:08:17,080
Cult in this context does not
mean like the scary shadow

2151
02:08:17,080 --> 02:08:20,080
organization that evangelical
Christians think are the

2152
02:08:20,080 --> 02:08:23,200
boogeyman, a cult.
Simply means to be hidden.

2153
02:08:24,120 --> 02:08:26,960
A cult means that cult, cult.
OK, you said cult.

2154
02:08:26,960 --> 02:08:29,720
Not that cult.
Yeah, anti cultic, not occultic,

2155
02:08:29,760 --> 02:08:34,040
but cult is simply a body or a
corporate organization, a

2156
02:08:34,040 --> 02:08:39,760
priesthood if you will.
So in the Kingdom of Israel

2157
02:08:39,960 --> 02:08:48,640
slash Judah, you had a temple
centric priestly body, generally

2158
02:08:48,640 --> 02:08:52,680
focused on festival observances,
animal sacrifice, whatever that

2159
02:08:52,680 --> 02:08:55,040
is the cultic body.
The Levites are the cultic body

2160
02:08:55,040 --> 02:08:56,720
of the ancient House of Israel,
right?

2161
02:08:57,800 --> 02:09:00,840
There's times where there's
prophets in the Old Testament

2162
02:09:00,840 --> 02:09:03,480
that are decidedly anti cultic,
right?

2163
02:09:03,680 --> 02:09:10,040
You have, for instance,
Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos, Micah,

2164
02:09:10,040 --> 02:09:18,600
Hosea and potentially Elijah and
Elijah who criticize or

2165
02:09:19,040 --> 02:09:23,280
criticize the workings of the
Levites in the high priest over

2166
02:09:24,200 --> 02:09:26,720
the the church or the cult or
cultic body.

2167
02:09:26,720 --> 02:09:30,280
You know, the priesthood
organization for various reasons

2168
02:09:30,280 --> 02:09:32,520
or seem to work outside of it
regardless.

2169
02:09:33,680 --> 02:09:35,880
And sometimes they're actually
in favor, but sometimes they're

2170
02:09:35,880 --> 02:09:41,320
really critical of it.
And some other prophets

2171
02:09:41,400 --> 02:09:47,640
exemplify themes or messages
that are decidedly pro cultic or

2172
02:09:47,840 --> 02:09:52,560
that do support the righteous
functions of the cultic body.

2173
02:09:52,840 --> 02:09:59,200
The Levites, Joel, Samuel, the
seer, Nathan, who is the, the

2174
02:09:59,200 --> 02:10:02,360
minister of David and Solomon,
you know, right up there in the

2175
02:10:02,360 --> 02:10:04,640
organization.
But like in the legal right,

2176
02:10:04,640 --> 02:10:08,760
like they're authorized, right?
Zechariah, Ezra, Malachi, Joel,

2177
02:10:08,760 --> 02:10:10,240
those are like the pro cultic
prophets.

2178
02:10:10,240 --> 02:10:12,760
So you have this dichotomy of
people who are criticizing the

2179
02:10:12,760 --> 02:10:16,360
organization at times for its
apostasy.

2180
02:10:17,080 --> 02:10:20,600
For example, Isaiah, the 1st
chapter of Isaiah says, you

2181
02:10:20,600 --> 02:10:23,320
know, the Lord will no longer
accept burnt offerings.

2182
02:10:23,680 --> 02:10:26,240
Your solemn assemblies are an
abomination to me.

2183
02:10:29,360 --> 02:10:33,960
Micah talks about how you know
similar themes like you're

2184
02:10:33,960 --> 02:10:36,880
focused on sacrificing, but you
don't show kindness.

2185
02:10:37,520 --> 02:10:42,040
The Lord, you know, the Lord
wants you to know mercy and

2186
02:10:42,040 --> 02:10:45,400
that's the you know, his message
is more on mercy than strict law

2187
02:10:45,400 --> 02:10:47,720
and observances of the
priesthood rites.

2188
02:10:48,920 --> 02:10:51,240
I'm not saying that priesthood
rites aren't important.

2189
02:10:51,240 --> 02:10:53,840
I'm saying that that like like
in the I get what you're like in

2190
02:10:53,840 --> 02:10:56,240
the and for the audience for the
day in like in the days of

2191
02:10:56,240 --> 02:10:59,960
Christ, the scribes and
Pharisees were putting the laws

2192
02:10:59,960 --> 02:11:02,800
around the laws, right?
You know, that kind of stuff.

2193
02:11:04,760 --> 02:11:09,600
You see potentially that there's
other people like Lehigh could

2194
02:11:09,600 --> 02:11:13,760
be an anti cultic prophet
because he teaching a message

2195
02:11:14,240 --> 02:11:17,600
that the general population
reject as soon as they hear

2196
02:11:18,320 --> 02:11:19,960
about Jesus Christ, they want to
kill him.

2197
02:11:20,200 --> 02:11:23,040
We talked about that potentially
Ishmael might have been in that

2198
02:11:23,040 --> 02:11:24,880
school as well.
Jeremiah certainly was.

2199
02:11:24,880 --> 02:11:29,040
Jeremiah was also telling the
people of Lehigh's day that

2200
02:11:29,040 --> 02:11:30,920
Babylon's going to come and
destroy us.

2201
02:11:31,640 --> 02:11:33,040
But not only that, you're
wicked.

2202
02:11:33,360 --> 02:11:36,480
And there's other instances
where prophets will, I can't

2203
02:11:36,480 --> 02:11:38,120
remember which one.
It was one of the kings of

2204
02:11:38,120 --> 02:11:40,440
Judah.
It's like, I want to go to war

2205
02:11:40,440 --> 02:11:44,320
with so and so gather all the
prophets into the court and I

2206
02:11:44,320 --> 02:11:47,600
want to hear what they prophecy,
all of them prophecy that you'll

2207
02:11:47,600 --> 02:11:49,400
win or whatever.
And then there's another prophet

2208
02:11:49,400 --> 02:11:51,800
and I don't know if it's the
same as Micah or a different,

2209
02:11:51,800 --> 02:11:52,720
right.
It's like pronoun.

2210
02:11:52,720 --> 02:11:54,600
It's spelt a little different.
And I don't know, because

2211
02:11:54,600 --> 02:11:59,240
sometimes names that are one
individual or just spelled

2212
02:11:59,240 --> 02:12:02,720
differently, sure, in different
books, but it's like, maybe it's

2213
02:12:02,720 --> 02:12:06,240
Micaiah and not Micaiah.
And they're like, well, what

2214
02:12:06,240 --> 02:12:08,160
about this prophet Micaiah or
Micah?

2215
02:12:08,160 --> 02:12:09,960
And the King's like, oh, I don't
like him.

2216
02:12:11,320 --> 02:12:13,600
He always prophecies evil
concerning me.

2217
02:12:14,600 --> 02:12:16,520
Yeah.
And then they bring him in and

2218
02:12:16,520 --> 02:12:19,760
he says the exact opposite of
what all the other prophets,

2219
02:12:19,960 --> 02:12:22,880
prophets in air quotes, you
know, say.

2220
02:12:22,880 --> 02:12:24,800
And he says, you're going to be
destroyed if you go to war with

2221
02:12:24,800 --> 02:12:25,680
these people, you're going to
lose.

2222
02:12:25,680 --> 02:12:28,480
You're going to lose bad.
And he was the one that was

2223
02:12:28,480 --> 02:12:30,320
right, Right.
But he's kind of in revolt

2224
02:12:30,320 --> 02:12:33,840
against the legal cultic body at
this point in time.

2225
02:12:34,400 --> 02:12:36,160
He's Alma.
He's Alma the Elder.

2226
02:12:36,400 --> 02:12:39,600
Alma the elders.
Benadi is a perfect example.

2227
02:12:39,600 --> 02:12:43,280
Samuel the Lamanite in the
tradition of Lehi.

2228
02:12:43,320 --> 02:12:47,360
You know when Christ comes to
the Nephites of Bountiful he

2229
02:12:47,360 --> 02:12:49,880
says that they are the
descendants of Zenik and Zenus

2230
02:12:50,880 --> 02:12:55,120
and they what they were
crucified or killed for by the

2231
02:12:55,120 --> 02:12:57,840
Jews because they were northern
prophets saying the Jews are

2232
02:12:57,840 --> 02:13:01,240
crucified the Messiah.
They were anti cultic prophets.

2233
02:13:01,600 --> 02:13:04,320
Right.
At that time, for whatever

2234
02:13:04,320 --> 02:13:07,360
reason, because the organization
that was the legal corporate

2235
02:13:07,360 --> 02:13:12,880
body had become corrupt.
Right.

2236
02:13:13,280 --> 02:13:15,840
At other times when it's not
corrupt, you get the other guys

2237
02:13:15,840 --> 02:13:20,080
that like Ezra, you know, or
whoever, Zechariah, they want to

2238
02:13:20,080 --> 02:13:23,120
rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
And that is what God wanted to

2239
02:13:23,120 --> 02:13:25,280
happen right after the
Babylonian captivity.

2240
02:13:25,360 --> 02:13:30,520
Malachi is a pro cultic prophet,
kind of.

2241
02:13:31,000 --> 02:13:33,200
He does criticize some of the
priesthood of that day, you

2242
02:13:33,200 --> 02:13:35,680
know, wherever he robbed me and
typed in offerings, right?

2243
02:13:36,000 --> 02:13:39,880
He does talk about that, but
generally he's pro organization,

2244
02:13:40,560 --> 02:13:48,760
if I remember correctly.
So in this sense, what do we do?

2245
02:13:49,160 --> 02:13:51,320
You asked the listeners, what do
we do?

2246
02:13:52,160 --> 02:13:55,040
Well know our history.
This isn't the first time this

2247
02:13:55,040 --> 02:13:58,360
this happened.
That's a huge key in my mind.

2248
02:14:00,360 --> 02:14:02,240
And what happens?
This is the lynchpin in this

2249
02:14:02,240 --> 02:14:07,760
argument to me.
What happens when Christ comes

2250
02:14:07,760 --> 02:14:11,640
to the the Temple of Bountiful
and he asks about Samuel

2251
02:14:11,640 --> 02:14:16,680
Lamanites prophecies?
Do you remember they weren't

2252
02:14:16,680 --> 02:14:19,560
canonized by the Nephites?
Oh, OK.

2253
02:14:20,000 --> 02:14:24,200
Oh, that's a good point.
And he reprimands them and so

2254
02:14:24,240 --> 02:14:29,400
were they not written?
Oh, go and include them in your

2255
02:14:29,520 --> 02:14:32,560
in your records.
Oh, that's a great point.

2256
02:14:32,800 --> 02:14:35,520
I know.
Oh, that's a fantastic.

2257
02:14:35,520 --> 02:14:42,240
Point and so John Taylor and his
successors, the are anti cultic

2258
02:14:42,240 --> 02:14:45,680
prophets, so to speak, follow
this tradition nicely.

2259
02:14:46,160 --> 02:14:47,520
What are we told in the last
days?

2260
02:14:47,520 --> 02:14:50,200
We're told that father Adam is
going to come or the one mighty

2261
02:14:50,200 --> 02:14:53,240
and strong.
If you read section 85, whoever

2262
02:14:53,240 --> 02:14:59,320
it is in this Adam on diamond
type moment, you see the imagery

2263
02:14:59,320 --> 02:15:03,120
of a divine being opening books
and out of the books the records

2264
02:15:03,120 --> 02:15:09,160
kept the world the the he judges
that sounds like Christ showing

2265
02:15:09,160 --> 02:15:11,680
up to the Nephites and saying
what about Samuel?

2266
02:15:11,680 --> 02:15:13,280
Why am I not seeing his record
here?

2267
02:15:14,440 --> 02:15:18,320
Bring it.
And so how is that going to

2268
02:15:18,320 --> 02:15:22,520
square with you people in the
church when Father Adam comes

2269
02:15:22,520 --> 02:15:24,800
back, Adam on down and
functioning in his role is

2270
02:15:24,800 --> 02:15:27,400
Ancient of Days and the books
are being opened and he's and

2271
02:15:27,400 --> 02:15:30,640
he's judging the world and he
says you're not squaring with

2272
02:15:30,640 --> 02:15:34,520
this one just like Christ did
with Samuel.

2273
02:15:39,440 --> 02:15:47,040
Oh.
That's a great point, you know,

2274
02:15:47,480 --> 02:15:52,960
And I don't want to be flippant,
right?

2275
02:15:52,960 --> 02:15:57,600
I don't want to be like, well,
just just go find another place,

2276
02:15:57,760 --> 02:16:00,080
right?
I get what's on the line.

2277
02:16:01,000 --> 02:16:04,040
I understand.
I saw it first hand with my wife

2278
02:16:04,040 --> 02:16:06,640
Amber.
I understand.

2279
02:16:07,320 --> 02:16:11,800
I get it.
I held her at night as we had

2280
02:16:11,800 --> 02:16:17,840
kids who didn't want to
associate with us anymore, other

2281
02:16:17,840 --> 02:16:23,440
family that wanted to not
associate or tell us how wrong

2282
02:16:23,440 --> 02:16:27,960
we were.
By the way, I do have to repent.

2283
02:16:28,000 --> 02:16:30,400
I spiked the football a lot last
week.

2284
02:16:31,080 --> 02:16:41,600
A lot.
But nonetheless, that shout of

2285
02:16:41,600 --> 02:16:47,320
apostate doesn't hold water and
so I understand that people are

2286
02:16:47,320 --> 02:16:52,840
going.
I'm not going to lie to you, you

2287
02:16:52,840 --> 02:16:59,200
might lose some stuff, but we
were never promised a

2288
02:16:59,200 --> 02:17:07,959
comfortable Rd.
We were never promised that if

2289
02:17:07,959 --> 02:17:11,120
you just do these things, your
mortality will be easy.

2290
02:17:11,959 --> 02:17:16,200
No, you're not.
We were promised that if you do

2291
02:17:16,200 --> 02:17:21,400
these things, in the end it will
be made right through the

2292
02:17:21,400 --> 02:17:25,480
atonement of Jesus Christ and
the restitution of all things.

2293
02:17:28,240 --> 02:17:30,959
So if you're one of those people
who are sitting on the fence and

2294
02:17:30,959 --> 02:17:39,440
you've counted the cost and you
find yourself now at odds with

2295
02:17:39,440 --> 02:17:43,600
the organization that you
thought was going to always be

2296
02:17:43,600 --> 02:17:49,280
solid and now it's liquid, do
not throw out the gospel.

2297
02:17:51,200 --> 02:17:54,600
Understand there's a difference
between the church and the

2298
02:17:54,600 --> 02:17:58,040
gospel.
Don't throw that out.

2299
02:17:59,639 --> 02:18:06,200
Look for my friends who who are
LDS, I'm going to stay LDS.

2300
02:18:07,120 --> 02:18:10,360
I love you.
I love them to death.

2301
02:18:11,320 --> 02:18:14,920
I would.
I would be happy to go war with

2302
02:18:14,920 --> 02:18:22,080
them if I had to.
But the ground upon which you're

2303
02:18:22,080 --> 02:18:26,680
standing, that you think you can
claim neutrality on now is

2304
02:18:26,680 --> 02:18:31,520
shrinking beneath your feet.
And for whatever it's worth,

2305
02:18:33,240 --> 02:18:38,879
coming from me, the time of
choosing is coming sooner than

2306
02:18:38,879 --> 02:18:43,559
later, and you're going to have
to figure out which side you're

2307
02:18:43,559 --> 02:18:46,879
on.
And if you decide to stay, stay

2308
02:18:46,879 --> 02:18:49,559
with your eyes wide open and
make sure that's where God wants

2309
02:18:49,559 --> 02:18:52,000
you.
If it's time for you to leave,

2310
02:18:52,600 --> 02:18:58,480
know that there are people here
that are so willing and so eager

2311
02:18:58,480 --> 02:19:01,559
to help you.
And it's not like the old days.

2312
02:19:01,680 --> 02:19:06,120
You're not going to have to live
under some shadow regime

2313
02:19:06,120 --> 02:19:11,360
somewhere.
The seasons have changed, and

2314
02:19:11,360 --> 02:19:15,160
because they have changed, there
are options for you now.

2315
02:19:18,080 --> 02:19:23,040
You just have to reach out.
But you're not crazy either.

2316
02:19:23,600 --> 02:19:27,879
And as you have, gosh, I have
felt these folks over the last

2317
02:19:27,879 --> 02:19:32,920
few days as you've watched
church apologists make arguments

2318
02:19:32,920 --> 02:19:37,400
for you that don't sit well with
you, that don't hold water, that

2319
02:19:37,400 --> 02:19:41,120
don't meet the standard of
truth.

2320
02:19:42,559 --> 02:19:45,480
You're not crazy.
Don't allow them to gaslight you

2321
02:19:45,520 --> 02:19:51,680
and tell you that you're you're,
you're the one up in the night.

2322
02:19:51,720 --> 02:19:54,160
The emperor really doesn't have
any clothes on.

2323
02:19:55,160 --> 02:19:57,360
The seat is empty.
The seat is empty.

2324
02:19:59,160 --> 02:20:07,400
And if you know.
If you know, you will be judged

2325
02:20:07,480 --> 02:20:13,880
on what you do with that
knowledge and, and that's where

2326
02:20:13,880 --> 02:20:17,080
I I will leave it.
There is hope, there is hope,

2327
02:20:17,080 --> 02:20:19,080
and I don't want you to think
that you're without.

2328
02:20:19,080 --> 02:20:23,880
Hope it's potentially possible,
in fact, that without the

2329
02:20:23,880 --> 02:20:27,520
structure, and I'll put this in
my own experience too.

2330
02:20:27,560 --> 02:20:29,920
I, I think I'm the kind of
person that would have thrived

2331
02:20:29,920 --> 02:20:31,840
in the ancient world.
And when I say ancient, I don't

2332
02:20:31,840 --> 02:20:36,840
necessarily always be ancient,
but relatively, you know, old

2333
02:20:36,840 --> 02:20:39,880
Mormonism, let's say that with
the hierarchy, with the

2334
02:20:39,880 --> 02:20:43,640
structure, I try to be a good
soldier.

2335
02:20:45,040 --> 02:20:47,800
I've never example, I've never
considered myself an independent

2336
02:20:47,800 --> 02:20:49,760
fundamentalist.
I don't like the term.

2337
02:20:51,160 --> 02:20:56,080
Things are out of whack with us.
They're out of whack with the

2338
02:20:56,080 --> 02:21:01,840
church that can't be ignored.
As a man who would have thrived

2339
02:21:01,840 --> 02:21:09,680
in hierarchy by trying to be a
good soldier, maybe there's some

2340
02:21:09,680 --> 02:21:11,240
more freedom.
If we can cling to that

2341
02:21:11,240 --> 02:21:15,880
mentality because the structure
is no longer there to support us

2342
02:21:15,880 --> 02:21:20,520
and give us what we want, we can
access things.

2343
02:21:22,840 --> 02:21:25,680
How do I put this?
We see there.

2344
02:21:25,760 --> 02:21:30,080
We see that when doors were shut
in the past, in certain people's

2345
02:21:30,080 --> 02:21:35,400
examples, they were able to
experience the divine regardless

2346
02:21:35,400 --> 02:21:37,360
of that hierarchy existing
around them.

2347
02:21:37,960 --> 02:21:41,520
The brother of Jared didn't have
a church organization.

2348
02:21:41,520 --> 02:21:43,560
It was him and the Lord, right?
Right.

2349
02:21:45,240 --> 02:21:47,000
We talked about Alma the Elder
briefly.

2350
02:21:50,400 --> 02:21:56,120
They want they clung to the
faith despite the fact that that

2351
02:21:56,120 --> 02:22:04,120
Celtic body was an apostasy.
Right when Amulet and Alma are

2352
02:22:04,120 --> 02:22:07,960
on their mission to the
Zoramites and they can't the the

2353
02:22:07,960 --> 02:22:11,960
poor are kicked out and they
can't worship in the church.

2354
02:22:12,360 --> 02:22:17,720
Or the unvaccinated.
Yeah, they are told by Alma.

2355
02:22:18,040 --> 02:22:20,360
Well, haven't you read what
Zenith said about this?

2356
02:22:20,680 --> 02:22:25,200
You know, you don't need to to
go to a building to worship, you

2357
02:22:25,200 --> 02:22:26,880
know, and he lays that whole
thing out.

2358
02:22:28,320 --> 02:22:32,000
So the structure there is one
that's more metaphysical than

2359
02:22:32,800 --> 02:22:38,600
physical, that perhaps is more
free in a way for you to access

2360
02:22:38,600 --> 02:22:41,480
individually, which is what
Mormonism was about anyways.

2361
02:22:41,480 --> 02:22:45,400
And I'm not saying that the
hierarchy is unnecessary,

2362
02:22:45,400 --> 02:22:48,680
because I've craved it and I
wish it was there.

2363
02:22:48,800 --> 02:22:51,080
And like I said, I think I would
have thrived in the days of

2364
02:22:51,080 --> 02:22:52,360
Brigham.
Right.

2365
02:22:53,560 --> 02:22:56,320
I would have been able to find
the niche, put my head down and

2366
02:22:56,320 --> 02:23:00,760
work.
Not just that, but but also head

2367
02:23:00,760 --> 02:23:06,040
up and thrive, right?
Knowing I fit, knowing everyone

2368
02:23:06,040 --> 02:23:10,000
was working towards an ascendant
goal together, right?

2369
02:23:13,440 --> 02:23:17,600
So the ascendant goal still
attainable, you just have to do

2370
02:23:17,600 --> 02:23:19,040
it with more legwork for
yourself.

2371
02:23:19,880 --> 02:23:24,760
Absolutely.
But I want to say this, right?

2372
02:23:25,200 --> 02:23:28,640
Despite what we went over, which
is it's rough stuff, right?

2373
02:23:28,640 --> 02:23:33,760
I, like I said, I did not.
I was not looking forward to

2374
02:23:33,760 --> 02:23:44,360
this episode whatsoever.
But there's hope despite the

2375
02:23:44,360 --> 02:23:49,600
work that I have to do now,
Despite that extra legwork that

2376
02:23:49,600 --> 02:23:53,800
you just alluded to, it is so
much better on the side of

2377
02:23:53,800 --> 02:23:58,440
things.
Cognitive dissonance.

2378
02:23:59,280 --> 02:24:07,320
I don't have to experience
anymore wondering about trying

2379
02:24:07,320 --> 02:24:12,040
to play the games of OK, what,
how, what did the church just

2380
02:24:12,040 --> 02:24:13,960
do?
And, and how can I make it fit?

2381
02:24:15,280 --> 02:24:19,640
I don't have to play those games
anymore and I still hold on to

2382
02:24:19,640 --> 02:24:28,280
Mormonism, not just Mormonism,
but a Mormonism closer to what

2383
02:24:28,280 --> 02:24:32,160
the Lord revealed to Joseph.
And that's the promise.

2384
02:24:32,800 --> 02:24:35,760
And look why we're here.
Let's let's clean up a couple

2385
02:24:35,760 --> 02:24:40,760
other things, right.
So often people think that if

2386
02:24:40,760 --> 02:24:44,240
they're going to join Mormonism,
well, you be a part of

2387
02:24:44,240 --> 02:24:46,880
fundamentalism or orthodox
Mormonism, however you want to

2388
02:24:46,880 --> 02:24:52,000
put it, pioneer Mormonism that
you got to come in and then

2389
02:24:52,000 --> 02:24:55,600
you're going to get assigned a
wife and a second wife and all

2390
02:24:55,600 --> 02:24:58,280
those other things.
It's not true.

2391
02:24:59,520 --> 02:25:03,840
That's not true of of the
fundamentalist that I know.

2392
02:25:06,640 --> 02:25:11,120
I'm guessing and, and correct me
if I'm wrong here, I would say

2393
02:25:11,120 --> 02:25:14,520
tops 50% practice the principle
of plural marriage at the

2394
02:25:14,520 --> 02:25:21,360
moment.
Yeah, I'd agree with that, tops.

2395
02:25:21,360 --> 02:25:23,440
Probably less.
Probably right?

2396
02:25:23,760 --> 02:25:28,120
Probably less.
And So what I would say is that

2397
02:25:29,280 --> 02:25:32,840
while you should be good with
the principal, but that would

2398
02:25:32,840 --> 02:25:36,320
apply if you were a Mormon.
I mean, not a Mormon, but in the

2399
02:25:36,320 --> 02:25:41,360
LDS church it's still in your
Canon, so at some point you had

2400
02:25:41,360 --> 02:25:46,240
to get OK with it anyway.
And if you can look past

2401
02:25:46,240 --> 02:25:50,320
somebody else practicing it, and
not in a sleazy, scumbaggy sort

2402
02:25:50,320 --> 02:25:55,560
of way where someone's marrying
a really young girl, but just

2403
02:25:55,560 --> 02:25:59,080
two consenting or three
consenting adults or whatever

2404
02:25:59,080 --> 02:26:03,240
the number is, If you can get
past that someone actually

2405
02:26:03,240 --> 02:26:09,840
practicing it, you have access
to everything else now that you

2406
02:26:09,840 --> 02:26:14,520
had in the LDS church and more.
So on that note, and it's so

2407
02:26:14,520 --> 02:26:16,760
it's not just polygamy either.
No.

2408
02:26:16,880 --> 02:26:19,840
It's Adam, God, Adam, God,
united orders, law of

2409
02:26:19,840 --> 02:26:23,640
consecration, full.
You know, that's the big one for

2410
02:26:23,640 --> 02:26:27,200
me.
But what is it in the Joseph

2411
02:26:27,200 --> 02:26:34,920
Smith translation, Genesis 14, I
want to say where the narrator's

2412
02:26:34,920 --> 02:26:39,720
talking about the city of Enoch
and how Melchizedek's people

2413
02:26:39,720 --> 02:26:42,560
sought after the city of Enoch,
and what it takes for the city

2414
02:26:42,560 --> 02:26:45,800
of Enoch to return.
And what God's covenant with

2415
02:26:45,800 --> 02:26:49,800
Enoch was, was that when his
posterity keep all the

2416
02:26:49,800 --> 02:26:53,600
commandments that I have given,
then will Zion that's in heaven

2417
02:26:53,600 --> 02:26:54,920
look down upon Zion that's in
earth.

2418
02:26:54,920 --> 02:27:00,040
So you can't have Zion without
having at least the door open to

2419
02:27:00,040 --> 02:27:01,640
all the principles.
Right.

2420
02:27:03,840 --> 02:27:05,360
Right.
Is the church offering that

2421
02:27:05,360 --> 02:27:07,240
Right now it is absolutely not
offering that.

2422
02:27:07,480 --> 02:27:11,160
We are stuck in a stasis without
the that door being open,

2423
02:27:11,160 --> 02:27:14,400
without the keys being turned
back.

2424
02:27:15,640 --> 02:27:17,600
In our favor.
In our favor so we can walk

2425
02:27:17,600 --> 02:27:19,400
through that door.
Without that, we'll never have

2426
02:27:19,400 --> 02:27:23,160
Zion and we're stuck in a stasis
waiting for the end.

2427
02:27:25,800 --> 02:27:28,320
Here's where I think it gets
really hopeful for people,

2428
02:27:28,320 --> 02:27:34,760
Michael.
I think those keys are beginning

2429
02:27:34,760 --> 02:27:38,520
to be turned again.
Sure, we're at the very

2430
02:27:38,520 --> 02:27:42,360
beginning of it, but I think
they're starting to be turned

2431
02:27:42,360 --> 02:27:45,840
again.
And those who don't have them,

2432
02:27:46,760 --> 02:27:50,040
well, that's going to become
starker now too.

2433
02:27:51,040 --> 02:27:55,800
It's going to be easier to see.
So if you are that person that

2434
02:27:55,800 --> 02:27:59,760
stuck around, did the brave
thing and listen to the end

2435
02:27:59,760 --> 02:28:05,840
here, we went over some tough
stuff, But there is hope.

2436
02:28:07,960 --> 02:28:10,240
And that's what you should take
away is that there is hope.

2437
02:28:11,680 --> 02:28:17,560
The LDS church is not the only
legitimate purveyor of Mormonism

2438
02:28:17,600 --> 02:28:20,680
any longer, by their own
admission.

2439
02:28:20,680 --> 02:28:24,600
Now we know where this movement
starting starts at, meaning

2440
02:28:24,600 --> 02:28:28,200
fundamentalism.
And it starts with John Taylor.

2441
02:28:31,040 --> 02:28:34,400
Because the idea that a man like
Taylor took a bullet for Joseph

2442
02:28:35,840 --> 02:28:41,040
came W died in hiding.
The idea that he got a

2443
02:28:41,040 --> 02:28:44,560
revelation and then didn't set
up a means to make sure it

2444
02:28:44,560 --> 02:28:48,040
happened doesn't hold water with
me.

2445
02:28:48,600 --> 02:28:51,040
Sure doesn't fit the man's
character.

2446
02:28:51,200 --> 02:28:59,800
And God being who he is, would
not allow you wouldn't allow

2447
02:28:59,800 --> 02:29:02,000
there not to be avenues to
pursue the fullness of the

2448
02:29:02,000 --> 02:29:06,880
gospel, considering that all the
laws need need to be lived by

2449
02:29:07,040 --> 02:29:11,160
Enoch's posterity to join back
with him, right?

2450
02:29:11,480 --> 02:29:14,120
Yeah.
If the if the if that's true and

2451
02:29:14,120 --> 02:29:18,320
if the 1886 revelation is true
or it says that he cannot

2452
02:29:19,080 --> 02:29:24,080
abrogate any commandments or
laws that he has given, he has

2453
02:29:24,080 --> 02:29:25,200
to.
What does Nephi say?

2454
02:29:25,200 --> 02:29:29,240
I know that the Lord gives no
commandment, but that He makes a

2455
02:29:29,240 --> 02:29:35,320
way for them to fulfill it, Yes.
And.

2456
02:29:35,320 --> 02:29:42,720
So the avenues have to exist
somewhere. 132 gave it, the 1886

2457
02:29:42,720 --> 02:29:46,720
revelation gave it.
And by the way, it came through

2458
02:29:46,720 --> 02:29:51,720
Wilford Woodruff 2 in 1889.
Three times the Lord has said

2459
02:29:51,720 --> 02:30:00,320
no, this is still in force.
And so the only question left

2460
02:30:00,840 --> 02:30:05,440
is, is what folks want to do if
if, if you feel like it.

2461
02:30:05,520 --> 02:30:07,880
Is what it is, yeah.
Do you want?

2462
02:30:08,480 --> 02:30:10,160
Right.
What do you want?

2463
02:30:11,120 --> 02:30:17,160
If if you want a Mormonism, in
my opinion that's more authentic

2464
02:30:17,160 --> 02:30:21,560
to what Joseph was doing, what
the Lord was doing through

2465
02:30:21,560 --> 02:30:25,960
Joseph, there are avenues for
that and you only have to reach

2466
02:30:25,960 --> 02:30:28,560
out.
But you do not have.

2467
02:30:30,280 --> 02:30:33,800
There is a great quote.
You know who Corey Tenboon was?

2468
02:30:33,880 --> 02:30:35,960
No.
It's a great book called The

2469
02:30:35,960 --> 02:30:42,120
Hiding Place and it talks about
a family.

2470
02:30:42,120 --> 02:30:43,800
I think I they weren't in
Germany.

2471
02:30:43,800 --> 02:30:46,360
I think they were somewhere in
the Netherlands, one of the

2472
02:30:46,360 --> 02:30:51,760
places where Hitler taken over.
And I could be wrong on where it

2473
02:30:51,760 --> 02:31:00,000
was.
But a young girl saw what was

2474
02:31:00,000 --> 02:31:04,440
happening to some of her friends
being rounded up, forced into

2475
02:31:04,440 --> 02:31:07,080
ghettos, some people just
disappearing.

2476
02:31:08,480 --> 02:31:14,800
And when things got really bad,
she started taking them suit.

2477
02:31:16,640 --> 02:31:18,320
And the mother couldn't figure
it out.

2478
02:31:19,960 --> 02:31:22,960
This little girl would just take
her bowl out and she'd come back

2479
02:31:22,960 --> 02:31:24,800
and ask for more and she'd take
it back out.

2480
02:31:25,680 --> 02:31:26,840
Her mom said, what are you
doing?

2481
02:31:26,840 --> 02:31:31,360
And she said she told her what
she was doing.

2482
02:31:31,360 --> 02:31:33,680
I'm I'm feeding my friends.
They're living under her

2483
02:31:34,320 --> 02:31:39,080
somewhere, right and hiding.
And her mom put her apron back

2484
02:31:39,080 --> 02:31:42,160
on, went back in and made more
soup.

2485
02:31:43,400 --> 02:31:44,840
She said there's going to be
more.

2486
02:31:48,440 --> 02:31:51,360
And at the end of everything,
after she'd wrote her book about

2487
02:31:51,360 --> 02:31:58,040
her account and what had
happened, somebody asked her.

2488
02:31:58,520 --> 02:32:00,880
The woman actually ended up
becoming one of the Righteous

2489
02:32:00,880 --> 02:32:04,000
Among the Nations.
You know what that is it.

2490
02:32:04,240 --> 02:32:07,840
It is something that that is
done in Israel to commemorate

2491
02:32:07,840 --> 02:32:12,520
those who, who helped out during
the Holocaust, who weren't who,

2492
02:32:12,520 --> 02:32:17,240
who were gentiles.
Oscar Schindler has a tree

2493
02:32:17,240 --> 02:32:20,120
there.
There's one for her as well.

2494
02:32:21,680 --> 02:32:27,480
And they asked her when, when
she was honored with that, what

2495
02:32:27,480 --> 02:32:30,080
made you be so righteous in that
time?

2496
02:32:31,200 --> 02:32:34,080
And she had the most profound
quote I think I've ever heard.

2497
02:32:36,840 --> 02:32:39,560
She said the righteous just
didn't wake up 1 morning and

2498
02:32:39,560 --> 02:32:43,040
become more righteous.
We just refuse to go off the

2499
02:32:43,040 --> 02:32:49,800
Cliff with the rest of humanity.
If you're feeling that things

2500
02:32:49,800 --> 02:32:53,680
are wrong, you don't have to go
over the Cliff with the rest of

2501
02:32:53,680 --> 02:32:56,800
humanity.
Stay static.

2502
02:32:58,640 --> 02:33:01,640
Get your feet under you.
You just got punched in the gut.

2503
02:33:03,880 --> 02:33:06,320
Get your feet under you.
Get your wind back.

2504
02:33:07,840 --> 02:33:10,720
Anchor yourself to the
principles, those first

2505
02:33:10,720 --> 02:33:14,680
principles.
Joseph Smith's the Prophet, the

2506
02:33:14,680 --> 02:33:17,920
Book of Mormon is true.
The revelations that Joseph

2507
02:33:17,920 --> 02:33:23,840
dictated and other men who held
those positions in the early

2508
02:33:23,840 --> 02:33:26,600
days of Mormonism, we're true
messengers.

2509
02:33:28,800 --> 02:33:32,840
Connect yourself to that and
then go forward with faith and

2510
02:33:32,840 --> 02:33:36,600
courage, knowing that God is
going to answer you and know

2511
02:33:36,600 --> 02:33:41,080
that there are people out there
that are willing to help you and

2512
02:33:41,080 --> 02:33:46,320
that Mormonism is still true
despite you being lied to.

2513
02:33:48,440 --> 02:33:51,000
There's comfort in the.
Fact that Marone, I saw this,

2514
02:33:51,400 --> 02:33:57,120
yes, I knew it wasn't the end.
Yes, there's a lot to unpack

2515
02:33:57,760 --> 02:34:00,040
that we could go into.
I think we're winding down

2516
02:34:00,040 --> 02:34:01,840
though, right?
We, we are winding down.

2517
02:34:02,920 --> 02:34:05,760
I just wanted to throw that out
there because the last two weeks

2518
02:34:05,840 --> 02:34:12,000
I have shed more tears for
people that I do not know who

2519
02:34:12,000 --> 02:34:14,840
are hurting, who do not know
where to go.

2520
02:34:18,120 --> 02:34:26,710
And part of the the
uncomfortable things that I said

2521
02:34:28,030 --> 02:34:32,990
were a manifestation of that
because I have the receipts, I

2522
02:34:32,990 --> 02:34:37,310
see the pain, I've been on the
phone with folks, I, I get the

2523
02:34:37,310 --> 02:34:41,550
emails.
In the last two weeks I have

2524
02:34:41,550 --> 02:34:47,440
spent more time trying to stop
the bleeding of faith from

2525
02:34:47,440 --> 02:34:51,480
people because the one
organization that they were

2526
02:34:51,480 --> 02:34:55,480
taught would never lie to them,
that would always be true,

2527
02:34:56,880 --> 02:35:01,680
isn't.
And I think other things are

2528
02:35:01,680 --> 02:35:05,560
about to break forward as well,
and this is the beginning.

2529
02:35:06,800 --> 02:35:11,600
But please, please, please don't
throw it all away.

2530
02:35:14,200 --> 02:35:18,960
Mormonism is still true.
Joseph is still a prophet, the

2531
02:35:18,960 --> 02:35:24,280
keys are still on the earth, and
all the promises that are

2532
02:35:24,280 --> 02:35:26,040
associated with that are still
here.

2533
02:35:26,760 --> 02:35:28,760
You just got to reach out and
ask for help.

2534
02:35:29,200 --> 02:35:30,960
And there are those who are
willing to help you.

2535
02:35:31,840 --> 02:35:33,960
I'll help you.
I know Michael will help you.

2536
02:35:35,280 --> 02:35:40,880
I have a ton of people who are
far better men and better people

2537
02:35:40,880 --> 02:35:44,200
than I am that stand willing and
able to help you.

2538
02:35:45,720 --> 02:35:49,840
And that's my testimony to you.
You can still be happy and have

2539
02:35:49,840 --> 02:35:52,160
the gossip.
It's available to you.

2540
02:35:52,840 --> 02:35:56,200
You just got to be willing to
reach out and I'll help you

2541
02:35:56,200 --> 02:35:59,480
however I can or I'll put you in
someone in touch with someone

2542
02:35:59,480 --> 02:36:03,880
who can.
But it's, it's still available

2543
02:36:03,880 --> 02:36:05,880
and it's still here.
God has been true to his

2544
02:36:05,880 --> 02:36:10,000
promises every step of the way.
And I'll leave it with that.

2545
02:36:10,000 --> 02:36:11,560
Mikey, anything you want to
finish up with?

2546
02:36:15,640 --> 02:36:17,280
You said something interesting
earlier.

2547
02:36:18,720 --> 02:36:22,000
What is left to do?
It is whatever it is you most

2548
02:36:22,000 --> 02:36:29,600
want to do.
That's really the crux of the

2549
02:36:29,600 --> 02:36:31,840
situation, the crux of the
questions that we should be

2550
02:36:31,840 --> 02:36:34,960
asking ourselves.
What it is that we want to

2551
02:36:34,960 --> 02:36:44,320
believe and why?
Personally, I see two roads as I

2552
02:36:44,320 --> 02:36:48,920
can only speak for myself.
But you can see Malachi's

2553
02:36:48,920 --> 02:36:54,080
promise or curse or prophecy of
a curse, which is if the hearts

2554
02:36:54,080 --> 02:36:58,360
of the fathers or sorry of the
hearts of the children are not

2555
02:36:58,440 --> 02:37:02,760
turned to the promises made to
the fathers, which I would say

2556
02:37:02,760 --> 02:37:06,440
is we're the children who are
not living according to the

2557
02:37:06,440 --> 02:37:08,840
promises made to our fathers
right now.

2558
02:37:08,840 --> 02:37:13,360
Unless we turn to the old ways,
to the promises of the fullness

2559
02:37:13,360 --> 02:37:18,320
of the gospel, which have been
slowly deleted and abridged over

2560
02:37:18,320 --> 02:37:21,200
time, unless we turn to those
original promises made to the

2561
02:37:21,200 --> 02:37:24,960
fathers, the earth will be
utterly wasted at the coming of

2562
02:37:24,960 --> 02:37:26,840
the Lord.
That's one path.

2563
02:37:29,560 --> 02:37:37,840
The other path is seeing what
John saw, realized, You know, he

2564
02:37:37,840 --> 02:37:45,720
saw in the end of the Book of
Revelations, he sees a massive

2565
02:37:45,720 --> 02:37:50,960
structure, which I believe is
symbolic, a massive cubic

2566
02:37:50,960 --> 02:37:55,200
structure, which itself is a
symbol of the Holy of Holies in

2567
02:37:55,640 --> 02:37:59,840
Solomon's temple.
What that's meant to convey is

2568
02:38:00,280 --> 02:38:05,000
the restoration of the temple
and its accompanying ordinances

2569
02:38:06,080 --> 02:38:10,280
in its purity, obviously, but
also the space where man

2570
02:38:10,280 --> 02:38:12,040
communicates with God because
that's what the whole wave

2571
02:38:12,040 --> 02:38:15,160
always flows.
So John's seeing the restoration

2572
02:38:15,160 --> 02:38:18,680
of that in the end, but also in
that structure is the tree of

2573
02:38:18,680 --> 02:38:24,120
life.
So John is seeing the

2574
02:38:24,120 --> 02:38:33,240
restoration of Eden, and this is
also the returning of the

2575
02:38:33,320 --> 02:38:35,080
turning of the hearts of the
children of the fathers.

2576
02:38:35,080 --> 02:38:38,040
Because in my opinion, in my
view, the esoteric, one of the

2577
02:38:38,040 --> 02:38:43,280
esoteric views of the Tree of
Life is a divine family tree, a

2578
02:38:43,280 --> 02:38:46,160
genealogy of gods that extends
throughout eternities.

2579
02:38:46,480 --> 02:38:49,320
And when you partake of the
fruit, you are grafted into the

2580
02:38:49,320 --> 02:38:53,720
tree, the eternal family.
So turning your hearts to the

2581
02:38:53,720 --> 02:38:57,000
Father's partaking of the fruit
of the Tree of Life, just like

2582
02:38:57,000 --> 02:39:00,840
Lehi saw in the Book of Mormon.
But John seeing that restored to

2583
02:39:00,840 --> 02:39:06,360
the Earth, which renews Eden,
the exact opposite of the other

2584
02:39:06,360 --> 02:39:08,800
Rd. that I mentioned earlier
that Malachi sees.

2585
02:39:10,520 --> 02:39:15,080
And you got to then, if you
acknowledge this premise, as

2586
02:39:15,080 --> 02:39:21,400
Dave says, decide what you want
and how do you get there is the

2587
02:39:21,400 --> 02:39:26,640
calculus you need to figure out.
Think once you decide on what

2588
02:39:26,640 --> 02:39:28,680
you want, the calculus becomes
pretty clear.

2589
02:39:28,720 --> 02:39:31,000
I think so.
I know for a fact I want to see

2590
02:39:31,000 --> 02:39:35,120
what John saw.
Yeah, absolutely.

2591
02:39:36,040 --> 02:39:40,760
And no longer are we in a
position where all is well in

2592
02:39:40,760 --> 02:39:45,320
Zion and we just go to our
meetings, we pay our tithing, we

2593
02:39:45,320 --> 02:39:49,440
keep our temple recommends, and
we do our work for the dead in

2594
02:39:49,440 --> 02:39:53,040
the temple.
That's a huge, you know, we

2595
02:39:53,040 --> 02:39:58,240
don't contemplate as Mormons in
the LDS Church that the DNC 2 or

2596
02:39:58,240 --> 02:40:02,120
Malachi 4 pronouncements are
really any danger because, oh,

2597
02:40:02,120 --> 02:40:03,720
we're doing the work and it's
all done.

2598
02:40:03,720 --> 02:40:08,080
But no, if, if that work is not
accepted, as God said to Cain,

2599
02:40:08,680 --> 02:40:15,320
your offering is rejected, then
that pronouncement that Malachi

2600
02:40:15,320 --> 02:40:19,400
gives us is in effect that
Moroni gave to Joseph Smith in

2601
02:40:19,400 --> 02:40:24,840
his bedroom.
Is now still very real, and

2602
02:40:24,840 --> 02:40:32,480
we're not safe from that.
In my opinion, 100% figure out

2603
02:40:32,480 --> 02:40:35,120
what to do.
Talk it over with your spouse.

2604
02:40:36,440 --> 02:40:41,560
If it's if your answer from God
is to stay, then you stay right

2605
02:40:41,560 --> 02:40:44,120
where you're at.
But make sure your eyes are wide

2606
02:40:44,120 --> 02:40:47,360
open to leave.
Reach out.

2607
02:40:47,360 --> 02:40:52,080
There's people to help you.
We've been look, those who've

2608
02:40:52,080 --> 02:40:54,480
been listening to me for a
while, we've been through a

2609
02:40:54,480 --> 02:40:58,680
little bit and I think this is
just the beginning of things to

2610
02:40:58,680 --> 02:41:01,520
come.
There are good things on the

2611
02:41:01,520 --> 02:41:04,320
horizon and I want I want to
leave you with that.

2612
02:41:04,680 --> 02:41:06,400
This is not the end of the
world.

2613
02:41:07,480 --> 02:41:13,040
This is a good thing.
Truth has come to light and that

2614
02:41:13,040 --> 02:41:18,520
gives that should give us a lot
of hope that it's exciting

2615
02:41:19,480 --> 02:41:22,480
right.
A lot of the things I talked

2616
02:41:22,480 --> 02:41:27,120
about tonight are an outgrowth
of the pain I've seen inflicted

2617
02:41:27,120 --> 02:41:31,520
on people.
But nonetheless, there are there

2618
02:41:31,520 --> 02:41:35,960
are great things ahead and just
got to figure out where it is

2619
02:41:35,960 --> 02:41:39,200
God wants you and the calculus
on how to get there.

2620
02:41:39,800 --> 02:41:43,240
That'll take care of itself.
But Michael, that's all I got

2621
02:41:43,240 --> 02:41:45,160
man likewise.
Awesome.

2622
02:41:45,160 --> 02:41:48,000
Well, thanks for doing this with
me SO.

2623
02:42:21,560 --> 02:42:24,320
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.