Episode #64: Recollections Of Rulon C Allred W/C.W. Orison

0:21 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Here's the unfortunate truth right now as fundamentalists and traditional LDS folks, we can't expect to have accurate history told by others because true history and scholarship is problematic for certain people. And organizations, we're going to have to do this work ourselves and to do that, we will have to support each other in this kind of work. Now, anybody who's anybody in fundamentalist, circles knows who drew Briny is, he is, perhaps the most, Prolific author within Mormon fundamentalism.

1:04 Drew's newest project is something. I think all Mormons can benefit from he is in the process of creating an annotated version of the Doctrine and Covenants. Once you have a copy of this, you will be able to compare current sections with previous versions. And also what early LDS leaders had to say about that particular section as fundamentalists and traditional LDS. Folks, we are constantly trying to get back into the minds of the early brethren this project that Drew's engaged in right now is going to be the ultimate tool to help us do that. Now because this annotated version of the Doctrine and Covenants is such a massive undertaking, Drew needs some help from others, Drew's plan for getting this annotated version of the Doctrine and Covenants out is through crowdfunding the link for that will be out April 4th if you want more details sooner, go to Drew's Facebook page and messaging from there and he'll give you all the details further on Saturday. April 8, I'll be Leasing an episode that talks about this project in Greater detail.

2:04 So please if you feel impressed to do so and have the means I'd humbly ask that you reach out to Drew and support this project, that will help Advance the scholarship and true doctrine of the restored gospel because of your generosity. Last year, I was able to buy better audio equipment and software. I can't tell you how much it meant to me. That not only did you spend your time here with me on the podcast but also that you found enough value. And what I'm doing that you donated Did the podcast upgraded this year I want to continue to grow. Now I want to add video to the podcast, continue to help you my guess a myself connect better through the show. The other feature I'm working on for this podcast, is something I have to remain vague about for now. But what I can say is that it's something that will help us better connect as fundamentalist and traditional LDS. Folks, now to get that equipment for the video content, I want to do and to build the infrastructure for the A project with this podcast donations would certainly be welcome or you can go to Mormon Renegade.com, click that supply store button and get some new swag. New stuff will be out soon as well. Now if you can't afford to you either of those two things, I totally get it.

3:17 Maybe just keep the podcasting your prayers, that will be blessed with those resources. Again, thank you for everything you do as well as for listening to the podcast. What worsen how you doing? I'm doing super, I can't tell you how excited I am for this conversation. We within the gospel, I think, and rightfully so we focus on chose stuff and Brigham and and we should focus their. But sometimes I feel like these early fundamentalist Brethren don't get some of the their credit that's do.

4:01 Because they really kept the god, the gospel in its fullness alive in a time when it could have easily have just just been watered down and gone away. So the fact, you and I get to sit down here and have a conversation about ruin already. I think is just absolutely amazing. Now you you knew ruin personally, right? Very very personally. Yes how long patient's? Oh wow. How long did you know him for From 1964. Wow.

4:48 Wow, that's, that's quite a long time, and he was assassinated in what year, again by 1977 77. So you knew him for, for the better part of 13 years, almost 14 years, they even came to me a couple times after he passed away and talked with me, who will want to get that story later on for sure. So, when was the first time you met ruin already? Gloria Dawn, and I Road with her parents from Richmond.

5:29 Utah to my best recollection in 1964 and he was conducting a meeting there in Murray and Owen allred's think was a five car garage but it was set up so that people can that's the first time we met him. What was your first thoughts as you met him, right? It's one thing to hear about a guy but it's another thing to actually meet that individual. If we look at it at some accounts of Joseph Smith, people would hear about the Prophet Joseph and they would just immediately for whatever reason, their minds went to a guy who would maybe look like Moses or you know an Old Testament prophet and then they Were kind of taken aback at first when they met Joseph because he didn't look like that.

6:24 He didn't quote fit that mold. What was your? Did you know about ruin all read before? You went to this meeting, had you heard about him? I had heard just because we've been studying about the fullness for several months because of Gerald senior and bake Peterson. But when when we went to the meeting, I was very nervous. And as we set at into the building, I was just questioning how in the world. Could you be living plural marriage in this day and age? My focus wasn't on him as an individual. My focus was on how in the world could this be done and then sham Jessup.

7:18 And two wives sat right in front of us. and once they sat in front of us, the spirit of God came over me and said, yes, it can be done this day and age so we didn't meeting personally. I mean we met him but we met 50, 60, 70 other people. It was a shotgun of meetings and so I wasn't really focused on him any more than I was anybody else because he had other people's talk. Not just he himself talk. When you first heard him talk, what was your year, remember, having an impression or thoughts or anything like that?

8:10 My mind was just anxious to know what the truth was and how all of this fit with the church. And the priesthood. I I mean there was a very positive feeling but I was still in the inquiring stages I had not had a witness that he held the keys nor did my wife Gloria Dawn. But we did have a witness of the principal Okay. Alright, so, so you gained kind of a testimony of plural, marriage, and then off of that, you started to investigate, what I assume would be, the AUB at this point.

8:55 Is that correct or incorrect? That is correct that it wasn't called the AUB at that time. That was a name that was taken up a number of years later. But it was called the Allred group, of course, is the priesthood just within about a lock and a half. There was other meetings by other fundamentalist organizations by Guy Messer. So there was then all over but Anyway you go right ahead. No no you're just fine. I just enjoy hearing about this this sort of stuff and more of you and less of me is always a good thing Orson. So when when was the first time you met him face-to-face, The first time we really met him.

9:47 Meaning one on one we had had a and I will just do a generalization on this. Sure, Gloria Don and I within two weeks of being married prayed about a lot of things, and we prayed about how God manages, many different things. And what he's will was and one night, we got an answer. And I won't go into the full detail. But other than to say, the answer came yes, my daughter and only in this way. Can plural marriage, be lived, righteously, which shocked us. So we asked her dad, which was on the high counsel the following week what he knew about this. He didn't answer our question but he directed it to the answer.

10:44 And that was only in this way. Can plural marriage? Be lived righteously. He handed us lot of booked. Well, so when we went to the meetings, we decided we are going to ask this man that very question. So we asked for audience, we asked him the question. And he very graciously said, well, that would be wonderful. The Lord bless you if that's what you'd like to do. So he had to leave within a few days. He calls Gerald senior and said, I've done wrong with those kids.

11:25 I need to have them come back. So we came back and he sat down and he gave detail after detail after detail. He said, here's the rules. Here's the laws. This is what Joseph Smith was instructed by the Savior and all the key holders of taught this So, from that point on, we had an open door to go and talk with him. I remember one time, he, he and I, and Gloria to Dawn, where the back of a car riding to a wedding reception and this is before we ever moved to Montana, and Gloria Dawn being Forgive me if I cry, you're fine. Psychic said, brother ruling.

12:16 You're in pain, aren't you? And he said yes my dear. I have a bleeding ulcer. And it's always plaguing me. We got into many things, privately that we talked about that many times. He said you, you can't talk about this outside of my presence, but I'm only doing this because somehow the Lord has caused you to be curious and wanting to know these truths when we move to Montana, and that was remembers 1965. We moved right next door to his family. One of these families, and her name was Ethel. Now we were young kids and I, you know, no matter what, when you put a lot of people together, there's going to be armpit relationships.

13:22 It's explain what an armpit relationship is for. Anyone who doesn't know, well, it hasn't come up with this shit. We'll have to talk to him. Start becoming familiar with their weaknesses, and shortcomings familiarity breeds contempt. However, with the highest level of Charity, that doesn't matter. The love increases. Anyway, so he gave instructions to his wife. Ethel, keep an eye on those kids have them over often and we were full of questions.

14:03 Oh, by the by this time, when we moved to Montana, we both had a witness that he held the keys so we did not do a lot until I mean we attended meetings but we were not asked to be engaged in things until we kill. We had a witness and I'm going to back up, I'm going to back up. okay, we were We were so anxious to learn and every time he talked, we were living in the top of a an up-or-down house. And we have been studying a lot in studying law. This excited about everything we were learning. And glorious dad said my dears.

14:56 You've got to ask who holds the keys just understanding always sings. There's many people. Yes, just knowing this knowledge is valuable, but you got to know who holds the key. So we got serious about well, who holds the keys, and Gloria Don. Gloria Don. All of a sudden, had a light. Coming down the hall. And it scared the heck out of her. This light was coming down the hall. She got under the covers and then she felt very comfortable and she looked again and then in this, like there was a book and the book opened up and there was page after page after page of ladies, and then it came to a blank set of pages. And in the very, very center of the pages of the crease of the book.

15:56 It's open. There was a little teeny square and she kept looking in the Square, got bigger and bigger and bigger bigger. And it was a picture of her colon and then she heard a boy say this man is Approved of god. Wow. So before you guys moved to Montana, you had a very profound witness that ruin already held the keys. Absolutely. I mean Heavenly scent Vision to instill, this idea that it was ruined that held the keys. That is correct. Absolutely. Wow.

16:38 We're perfect. But God made very clear. Sure to give us that witness and Gerald Peterson was absolutely right. It's absolutely essential. Wow. So before we go forward with your story on in Montana, I want to ask you some background information that you may or may not know. And it's fine either way if you do or if you don't but where Was Reuben. Born was he born here in Utah? You know, I can't remember if it was Mexico just before or if it was in Idaho, okay? But he was the son of the second wife. And they were really trying to keep hit out during that period of time, but the first wife died. So then his father gathered together, all the family and the second wife.

17:39 Now, raise the children of the first, why? And they spent a lot of time in Idaho, Dan. He his father ended up being in Congress in in the auto place and then he ended up going up into Canada. They lived in can occur one or two years and they came back down and lived in the Boise area. During all this period of time, they were trying to be very careful in exposing anybody that was living p.m. because they were putting him in jail, creating a lots and lots of trouble brother ruling ruling decided.

18:26 He was going to be a doctor and he decided that he was going to be extremely active in the church that he was not that interested in plural marriage. Plural, marriage was not being talked about, they tried not to talk about it and I know that sounds contradictory but they tried not to because of all the legal actions and the people were trying to from the government and and even people People in the church. So he ends up going to California to get a medical degree as of nature path by the way.

19:07 He passed a lot of tests that would would have given him other licenses besides being in nature path. But he stayed with nature path because it felt more like what he wanted and represent his feeling his father. Bayern Harvey. Allred was given by the Lord, and I think Joseph must have says you need to check with you need to work with your son ruling. Well, real and decided. Well I am going to convert my dad. Back to the church. He's a good man. My mother's a good woman. There's no sense that are not in the church. So he gathers all of his his doctor mental.

19:53 Ammunition. Then he comes up, and he says Dad. You promise you, let me go through all this because I want you back in the church, his dad's okay, son, you go for it, long periods of time. Long periods of time when he got through. His father had made notes on everything that had been talking basis. Okay, ruling my dear son, we're going to go on this. We're going to ask the Lord help this to come over before long ruin blue, just my dad blew. My mind. He wasn't as free to go into all of this because they're the legal problems were so, so hectic. And then He just, oh, my word.

20:43 It's right. So then he's He's back in California trying to tell his wife paid my dad's right? The church is still the Church of Jesus Christ, but they are not doing everything and if you and I want to be married for eternity, we've got an advanced. She didn't go for it, she fluttered back and forth. She finally divorced him. He came back and forth numerous times to Utah when he finally got his degree. and, Now I've covered some of the area.

21:28 Do I need to go back? You want more detail of the back? I just got a few more questions is all here Orson. So he's born in 1906 and it sounds like he's born down in the colonies. Right. So he this this is at that time in history within the LDS church where They basically have said yes we've abandoned polygamy publicly, but they're setting up colonies in different areas for plural marriage to still be lived. So he's really born right in the thick of this transition. So to speak within the church where where where they're the the modern church.

22:10 So to speak that we know of today, the LDS church is beginning to come forth out of those Fundamentalist. Or I should say early church teachings. So I feel like he's got, he's born into an exceptional time within within restoration and history so you covered all that time there. When is it that ruin himself? Gets the keys of the priesthood and who did he get those from? Oh, that's a lot to detail. So I'm just going to give you the generalities, okay? After a real and had come back up. And he was established, he had like at this time I think for wides which that came into his family very quickly. He-he's, very well educated.

23:09 There isn't a subject you could talk about that. He didn't understand very clearly skillful Joseph. Mauser had a lot of problems in trying to keep track of Records. Charles sitting being one of the council there. There was ruined Jeff, several others in the council that we're not taking care of them and so he finally asked Grill and You'll come and start taking care of these records. Well, this got some resistance by some of the Brethren that really got the resistance when in a very short period of time. He had it all taken care of which was a little bit overwhelming. How did he get this all done so quickly? There was words at first and I'm quoting Joseph Mauser. Now the line of the seniority you normally take. He whoever is a senior to set him not to have the keys as the Second brother in the Elder of the priesthood. And, of course, at that time would have been Charles City. However, there's another part of the law and that is, if you have a son that's worthy in that Council. He is also eligible for that position and Joseph. Mauser heart was I would just

24:39 love to have my son because I know my days are getting further down and further down. But then the Are just kept telling him. To talk to rule and but at the same time he was realizing. Wow. Just the little, I've had ruling do, the council has been getting pretty upset. I've got to just work with this, so he tried to incorporate ruling to do more things, and he still had not been couldn't on the council. But he was still wanting him to do more things. Now, he was a Doctor, Joseph. Mauser had a Oh, the words.

25:23 Totally lost. Where you lose control of certain functions in your your body? Okay, I can't remember the term. It's a very common term but I just can't remember right now but it was it had nothing to do with reasoning. It only had to do with the coordination, have his physical body. Okay. It's called numerous times to come help him. The couch will become more and more. Brother Orson, I think I lost you again. Once again there's a lot of details but the generalities is it was very clearly made known to him. In the midst of this ruling is to be the one you set apart to hold the keys.

26:21 But he's trying to do this in a way so he doesn't lose all the people. So it wasn't at one point boy all of the people which eventually it almost What did Brother it finally gets to the point that he's wanting to let them know that he wants ruling to be in the council, he's hoping they will accept that. God's hoping they will accept that, but they won't accept it. And so there's two or three other issues that are taking place. Some things in Colorado City that are taking place, that shouldn't be taking place. And he actually sends him down and another brother down to Colorado City.

27:14 To investigate finding out. There's too many men down there that are making contracts with other men for wives allowing. Not Joseph's Master doesn't even know about it and sometimes there's some ceilings take place, Lyman Jessup, although all of a sudden finds out his daughters, married goes to Joseph Muslim says, how come what's going on? He's at the my word go down there. And get her out there. I never gave that permission the Lord's, never sanctioned it. So lots and lots of friction until finally, Joseph Meister says Brethren.

27:54 We've got to live the We're starting to come up with all of our own imagination. We've got to go back to Joseph Smith, and the rules and the regulations the principal well, they re only one man accepted ruined to be in the council, which one I can't. Remember this point at the very beginning to many of them in factors, two or three times that and I've read and I don't know if I've given them to you, but there is a nymph In a review that brother ruling goes through in the 70s class. And I need to give that to you, where he talks about all of the transitions.

28:40 All the friction. But there was a time that cerebellum Said they would be willing to kill ruin that, he had not come in and do all this. He's taking advantage of shows of my sir. So, finally ruling not only set him apart with the keys, but he called in others. And he told him you get others to come in. You're dealing with Owen, you're dealing with Marvin, Allred. You're dealing with form, Lavery, you're dealing with With Joseph Thompson. And I can't remember if there was another one right now, the top of my head.

29:23 So it was a very heartbreaking transition and probably 3/4 of the people, totally left. The messrs were a minority of the numbers of people. Jessup's and Jensen's and Johnson's. Who are the majority people? And so at that point, Colorado City just more or less said Joseph Mauser ruling all red, go jump in the lake. We are going to be in charge here, you have nothing to say, want to make know when Colorado city was set up, it was sit up honorably under the direction of Joseph, Mauser with John Wayne barlowe. But then it totally went, it.

30:18 Totally went to some other entity. Wow. Wow, it's so fascinating to learn about this history and this is one of the reasons I wanted to talk about ruin all red because his shadow Still Remains and and Iommi shadow in a bad way. Basically anybody a lot, I shouldn't say everybody, but a good portion of fundamentalist can trace their priesthood lineage right back to ruin already at some point. And it's super important that we be able to to get a sense of who this man was. So I'm loving this a lot.

31:06 Well, I would like to tell you about his personality. Yes, his principal. Gerald Peterson. Had been getting. Revelation from the time he was about 21 until we was 41 that he would be living plural marriage. But he was to stay in the church at approximately. The age 41. He was told I will now reveal to you. He holds the keys of this priesthood. By this time Gerald Peterson, senior had new. All of The Twelve Apostles of the church, personally knew David all McKay and Ezra Taft, Benson Hubie, Brown knew all of them.

31:55 And why, why maybe did it because he had brought in so many people into activity. Wherever he was putting brought in a lot of people in activity. So all I'm will we want to meet that brother Peterson? The 30 percent or 40 percent attendance, always jumps up, whatever he's in charge of, we want to meet him. And so he and his wife, Faye, personally knew David okay. Personally, shook hands personally knew his wife. They probably knew both of the wives, but at that time, it didn't realize it. But in this one meeting Gerald Peterson is told prior to the meeting, the Lord saying my son, I'm now going to reveal to you.

32:43 He who holds the keys of this priesthood. He goes to the meeting room now, red is the one that's giving the presentation, and it's a nature Pathak meeting. They're both nature Pathak, doctors by now, And he was just what how can this be? He's just a doctor. I was expecting Ezra Taft Benson to come knocking on my door or David O. McCain is saying somebody I don't understand this. So he goes, he grabs him after and he says, Doctor all. Read my name is dr. Peterson And he's very having a very difficult time.

33:27 Keep in mind, when I said difficult time, he's dealt with lawyers, he's dealt with all kinds of people. I mean, brilliant man, but right now, he's looking at this, man, this is stranger and staying. Did God tell me that man? Holds the keys. Well, I'm going to give it a chance. Says dr. All remedy you hold the keys. Dr. Address looked him in the eye and said, dr. Peterson, you have already been told. And he said the second time he thought he was going to pass out. How can this be he chased him down wanted to meet with me and so secretly met with him some period of time.

34:14 Then after a while, Gerald Peterson said to rule and after he had learned a lot, you'd loan him a lot of books. He helped had to keep secret and keep in mind, he's in the High Council, in Northern North cash. So he's not just keeping his wife and kids but everybody grew from seeing all these documents hated book. One day, I've lost track. Oh yes. So we goes to rule in this one time and he said drool and I don't know what to do about my wife. I'm not, you know, many many many years ago she was not have any interest in learning doing the living plural marriage. She said, on the condition, the president of the church asked her to then she would know it was time. What am I supposed to do divorce? Her.

35:08 And he paused the spirit Lord, to Mom said no, she's a good woman. You bring her to me and I will just introduce myself and become acquainted with their. So the next time they were in town, they've dropped off in the front of the office. He run in real quick, said, hey, she's out here. Brother rule and excuse himself from a patient went out extended his house, his hand, by this time, she knew he's a polygamist. And in her mind. Oh boy. Always guys, like is just 6:06 after sex. I don't know if I want to touch this man at all, but I will be courteous and he rolls, she rolls the window down, and they shake hands. And they talked for two or three minutes, just on a medical basis, how's the weather?

36:02 And then they take off and then as they take off, she starts crying. She's Gerald, I don't understand. He's a polygamist but the spirit he radiates his a strong or stronger than David, all McCain's how in the world can that be. And then Gerald tells all of these been doing the last 20 years Brother ruined. Brilliant man. Very intelligent man. Very courteous. Very kind, very affectionate. I remember, Keep in mind when I enjoyed on came into the work, the law had dropped tremendously from it, still arrested people, but it was nothing like it was 10 years before any time he came to a meeting and he was in the meeting. If he had four wives, three wives Six Wives in there, he would get there on time so that he could go and take the hand of one of these wipes and give me A little kiss and Sarah, love you. And sometimes they'd be lined up. Sometimes he go from one point to another, he was very kind, very affectionate.

37:21 And he was always eulogizing the greatness and the wonderfulness of good wives that place their bodies into the shadow of death to bring babies into the world. Now, you go ahead and ask more question. Well, I just want to point out first that even from the beginning of what we consider modern fundamentalism. Now, there seems to be this misconception, that, you know, the these guys are requiring their wives to basically go to bed whenever they say.

38:02 And what I encountered, when I was first investigating fundamentalism and and subsequently, all the way through is that that's not the case whatsoever and Many of these women have the ability, even the responsibility of of being able to to just tell somebody no. And by these early fundamentalist Brethren they they respected that. And I think that comes through within and in the stories you're telling her about ruin that he was. He was very much concerned with the comfort and happiness of his wives, and I think that's something that often gets lost in history and in the propaganda that we see coming out of mainstream media about fundamentalism. So, I appreciate you telling those stories. So, I want to go back to your interactions with ruined because I think those are important.

39:07 It's one thing to know the history of somebody. It's another thing to talk. Talk to people who had personal interactions with that person because I think that speaks more about that person than maybe, you know, he was born on this date and died on this date and you did these things. It's those day-to-day interactions that I think speaks volumes about who a person really is. So, let's get back to Montana. You said you move to Montana and ruin gave one of his wives, a very specific task. To keep an eye on you and your wife. Why was that? We were green and once again the armpit principal and I want to make sure this comes over in proper balance. When you get a lot of people together, you're going to have a lot of different ideas and there could be some frictions and sometimes a friction May throw a person. May I go back to the time of Jesus with the 12 apostles and the sisters.

40:20 There were there were frictions numerous time in both cases, Mary, and Martha, and other sisters to another Brethren. Well, there, Was frictions on the other hand. There was a lot of righteousness and a lot of goodness and brother. Ruling did not want to, to be such that we, oh my word. This guy actually cost this day. When when he smashed his thumb with a hammer. Oh my word. We didn't think polygamous would ever swear but this one did oh well, this can't be true. I'm going back to the Mormon Church. You know, I'm exaggerating, right? Right. Yep.

41:02 And on the other hand, both go is done. And I were extremely hungry to learn the truth. Now, I'm embarrassed to tell you this, but even though I was converted to the principal and I believed in the principle, I kept praying that God would give the wives to someone else. I want some more time, my wife Gloria Don was constantly trying to keep an eye on somebody and brother ruin numerous times, was calling me up says, I want you to go see so-and-so or he would send Gerald senior to me or he was sent John Ray to me.

41:46 I would like brother Orson to go see someone so and that was awkward for me then after a while I got liking a couple of them but then they married somebody else. So so ruin was trying to kind of help you along and living the principle of plural marriage sounds like, yes he was this. I went to him after a couple of them, got married and I said, brother ruling. If you knew and I'm not saying that he did know, but I said it in the in the tents that will brother rule and if you knew they were going to marry somebody else. Anyway, why did you send me?

42:34 And he kind of grand and he said, or are you are experienced? And I thought that's a cop-out. This time went on. I thought, you know, I would have never on my own. I mean, Glory gone. Kept pushing me but I would have never on my own, but he did. So there's times. We lived on one end of the property. We're talking hundreds of Acres, okay. Oh okay. We lived at the far north. I'm trying to remember. It was a far north. I've lost track. Even though I just been up there a month ago. I think it was the far north. And so, we were the part of this together. So, sometimes, when ruin was there on a weekend, I would ride with Rule and, and Gloria Dunn would ride with our, I would take brew and two or three be sons and then Gloria would ride with Ethel and the daughters.

43:38 And so every chance I got I would ask him questions. Ian's. And let me just explain a principle here. This is difficult, but rather ruling if you if you're in a classroom. But let's say there's six grades in one room. And if a third grader, ask a fourth grade question. Brother ruin could tell, well, they're not going to be able to answer it. Understand it on the fourth grade level, I can only answer it on a third grade level. Then a sixth grader, asked that same question, he would answer it different. So according to your level of development, he would answer the question and there could be many different things. So there's times that I would get. Theme and I would say figuratively speaking. I'd say brother ruined.

44:40 I want to get a sixth grade answer to this question. I don't want a second or third grade answer. Now, most of the time he would give it but many times they would tell me, You can't be passing this on. I'm giving this to you in confident confidential giving it confidentially. Now, I mean, I'm okay I would like very much to tell a point here because this it all has to do with our relationship that we knew brother ruined, my hug brother rule and I ate with brother ruolan, I worked on these houses. He blessed my my Emily.

45:24 He sealed people to me, gay patriarchal, blessings. I mean, we work together, he gave assignments to me with different councilman, whether it was political to to get rid of Carter, whether it was to in the state of Utah to campaign. For different Governor, I mean, I did many things but once again there in Montana What time I'm going to slip here back to, because there's an important element that needs to be understood here, brother. Rulin personally knew David. All McKay. They personally had a relationship, David know. Personally knew that ruins the already held the presiding keys and that he held the keys of the church. How did all this happen?

46:19 Because he asked in the very beginning, And he asked Gerald, senior, and his wife, if they would take a family that had a lot of children and they thought in the sense that wow, you know, we're looking at maybe one wife that we can kind of hide here Hide there but a whole family so they decide they're going to pray about it. We're definitely going to pray about it and they both individually have a dream where David McKay appears to them in the Dream and says, to both of them. Yes, you move forward in living plural, marriage but do not hurt me or the keys.

47:01 So they went him week and said, how come David all McKay will be doing this and then that's when he revealed to him many years before David O McKay was made known to him. The Savior personally came to him and let him know that he only has the keys to the church and that he has to live plural. Marriage. And he has he has, he has more than one. Like now when I say that he has a second one, it doesn't mean there is pi but we just just know that the second one was always there and there was a brother named Oh boy please. I've got Gary Watson. Gary Watson. Jerry Watson was a liaison between ruling and David on McKay.

47:49 And they will hand him a list of people that he felt should be taught the fullness on Peyton. I want you to stop verbalizing it brother Orson. This is a super important point and I was wondering if you could say that one more time, who the gentleman was that delivered the papers? And then okay, so and I'm going to restate this, just to make sure we're clear here. So David McKay and I've heard this rumor for years. Had it had a second wife. Do we know what her name was by chance?

48:32 We do, but I can't remember it. Okay. All right. So, David all McKay has a second wife. He has a personal visitation by the Savior, which says, hey, you have the keys to the church, but the keys of the priesthood that rest with ruin. Yes, and so David O McKay and this is just fascinating because I've heard this on from more than one person on several occasions, David Olmec. A would then Then go and through his interactions with different people. In the church would say that person or that family needs to be taught the fullness. And at that time, he would direct ruin through these papers through this list that was delivered by Gary Watson. And then ruin would go teach these people. The fullness is that correct?

49:26 In general? There's I will cope Gary Watson. Yeah. Watson when he would meet he it was his understanding that. There were people coming to David ohmic a every week to said, we want to live plural marriage. Why can't we live plural marriage and the bulk of them. David all McKay said, the spirit said, they're not ready, and they're not worthy. The but there were a few that were ready and he would take those names down, but he would never converse with them. Oh yeah, I'll send someone right over because he had to protect himself church. So he would keep lists like that and then when Gary W brother ruling and now I want to be sure in a whatever period of time before Gary W ruined.

50:18 Died up to nineteen seven. Actually, Lee up to 1980. But tonight teen ATI, still met with Gary Watson. He had a cabin in Cedar Canyon and he came down, he had home, several places. He wanted me to take a look at his cabin and I asked him again. I think that's the last time I ever asking. Last time I ever saw him. I said, I want to hear it again. Ruolan, had a letter with information. He wanted David ohmic a to read. And you would take it up and you would go through the normal introduction to get through and get, let his secretary comedian and then you would have just you just ordinary little questions to ask that you would talk about because David Olmec, according to Gary Watson was very convinced that there were several Apostles that suspected that his secretary was his second wife. Why?

51:23 And so, he did not want anything spoken. That was recorded. That would be too revealing. So that's why almost everything was written, even though they did talk and they had symbolism and Gary Watson's fed. Yes, that's what I did. There was he was the main one that I was aware, but I did not know that until David on pique died. Then Gerald, let it be known. Because he'd been told by ruined, so I want to know who was one of the layouts on. Well, it was Gary W and just so that, you know, which is ironic in 2017 that was I think I was in Montana and most people didn't know anything about it.

52:12 Even in the all red, I mean, we, I was called on. I was called on numerous assignments. Some were very dangerous assignments matter of the FBI and I don't know if I need that record bit or not, but Salt Lake County Sheriff but I'm going, I'm going to set that aside one day, one day, an airplane lands in the meadow up there and a car runs out there real quick. We're talking pinesdale, okay, okay, and if I this part of can't remember, sure, but I think it was Ken Spencer, which I just saw him a few months ago and who FBI agent jumps in and drives to see ruined ruined talks to him, maybe 10 minutes, drives back the FBI agent takes off. There's many times that there were FBI agents that thought that this was completely Malarkey total baloney that Would be arresting a man that was such a Godly good man. They could care less about p.m.

53:29 but they knew that he stood up for Freedom, an agency and to protect the innocent and they hated their job when they had to do it. But when he was finally out neighbor, there were two or three of them that and in the Salt Lake 8 agency to not FBI, but Salt Lake County Sheriff's Department, they became good friends with them, and it saved people's lives. There's numerous times brother ruling. There was some friction or not? We're him want, and I'm going to get back.

54:18 Oh yeah, engineer. I mean he's a designer but he looks like he looked like a guy out of the Ozark Hills with the beard everything but he was skillful, brilliant, and he had a brilliant mind. Hey. He decided he wanted to change some of the ideas principles. And brother Rowland had bringing two tasks before long. He was now trying to blame ruled for a lot of things Plus in the very beginning stages, he could be corrected. So in these beginning stages, sometimes he would get into arguments with Morris Jessup and Ted wild are Ted.

55:08 Why do I mean? And one time they got in a fight and I stepped in front of them, guys, please stop. Whereas I am not. We and they slapped and stop. Well, there got to be so much friction in this one particular period of time. I thought, you know, My wife Gloria Dunn was back in Utah, Betty back getting close to deliver second baby. So she was right where she was within just 30 minutes of a doctor which was her dad at that particular period of time. And I thought, oh my word.

55:52 I couldn't go any further. I'm going to leave. I'm going to leave like, 2:00 in the morning. I'm going to head right to Marie. I'm going to go. Let Rule and know what's going on now. Nobody knew that I had left Gloria Dunn. Didn't know nobody. And I pulled in, I pulled into the Marie office about 10:00 in the morning and as I walked in Rule and saw me and he said, brother Bill, I've been expecting you come right in and talk to me. Now, what does that do to you?

56:34 Nobody knew, but yeah, he knew. Are you still are? Yeah, I'm listening. Okay good. There's times we. There was a water system that we had to build brother ruin. Another ruling brother ruin had been used. I mean, whether it was breaking horses or Doing cattle rounding. He done that in these up in Idaho, and I've been in Black Canada, I don't know.

57:14 There's so many stories. I got to tell this about Canada. All the sons were there. And they were all logging. And one of the chain locks snap broke, when it broke, it broke its connection, it swung around and it broke, it broke. Brian Harvey's legs. Halfway between his knees and he's ankled and they had to pick him up and they had the best I could with bags or calls or anything put him on top of the law to say. Hold it all the way back down. And he had some older Sons that were older than ruling, but he got him on and keep in mind, they're going to the going to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

58:08 Solar participating that way. And he said, let me on the table, all of you lift me on the table and he picks some of them. I want you to give me a blessing and so they did, they gave him a blessing. The next morning he got up and went to work. Both legs have been healed. Wow brother ruling was always talking about miracles and healings anyway, he was very capable of work. Working, very dexterous very and yet it was not abnormal to deliver two babies in the night and then go and cover, a full practice during the day, but this one particular weekend, it could have been two weekends brother rule says, we are getting all of these raspberries or chokecherry not choke cherries. It was Summit.

59:07 Berries and we're all going to work together and put the plant them and so we did. He's right out there digging away, putting it in, just like the 20 year olds, the 18 year olds, the 40 year olds. And he was like, I think at that time, he's a little above 50 years old at that particular period of time. I know I'm bouncing around a little bit, but no, you're good. It was not abnormal, he would. Now, he may get a ticket for this rather ruin when he would leave Salt Lake. And it wasn't always the same.

59:53 That usually it was a weekend. It asks the Lord. Will you protect me? Help me that I can get up there. Safely, man, he'd sticking at 85. 90 miles an hour. Obviously it was a safety wouldn't, but he would get there in the middle of the night. And be with, you had two wives up there at the time. He mostly just wives were down south in the Salt Lake promo Valley, right? And the up right shiny. It Go with this wife and deal with that wife, been deal with Brethren, and Ethel.

1:00:38 So Ethel would see him approximately two times. Every three weeks. two times, and she would say, I would rather be married to a man, but I know can get me to the Celestial Kingdom, even if I only seem every three weeks, Then a man that I see every day that I have questions, whether he can even get me to the bottom of the deep Celestial Kingdom, and she loved him with a with a virtue as a girl.

1:01:24 The spirit kept telling her, that's who she was supposed to marry. And she stood up and defended him numerous times she showed him honor. She showed him respect, he showed her Spect. He showed all of his wives respect. He may have the keys but he believed in stewardship. So, okay, in the kitchen, that's the wife's wife stewardship, the husband can tell me an offer to help. He can even surprise her and get the dishes done. But when she goes in there and she's there, she's the boss.

1:02:07 You make sure you find out whose stewardship you're in and then you follow according to their rules in their stewardship and some say, well, geez, all to keep. He's a priest that he should be telling her. He does have a right to but he doesn't have a right to whatever the stewardship rather ruling. Want to make sure it was a deacon, and he wanted, unless he was making a mess. If the Deacon wanted to do something, just a certain way and it wasn't perfect. Rather rule wouldn't interfere as long. The job get done for it early.

1:02:47 No lie to the point if there was something that was out of order. And then he would ask advice, you know, if, for example, I'm making this up and yet, this is a reality. If the husband says, I absolutely do not want my wife's milking goats, Brother ruined said, okay. That's your stewardship. I'm not going to eat, but your neighbor he wants his wives, the milk goats I will sustain both of you and your stewardship. Now, if any of your wives are being misused, not being treated, right?

1:03:29 I don't care about the goats, but if they're not being treated, right? And they come to me, I will have a talk with you because women Are not chattel, women are special sisters of God and they need to be treated with the highest level of respect and appreciation. Now that was that's how we always taught, you know? That's so inspiring to hear, right? I mean this is a guy who is loved by his community, this is a guy who holds the key. He's but yet he gives people Room to Grow, right? And, and he also gives room to understand. Not every family is going to be the same, right? You use the, the, the example of milking goats or whatnot. He understood that, that different families will have different.

1:04:36 So different personalities, I guess so to speak. And he gave people room to be who they were, despite his immense position in regards to those people. And that is just absolutely one of those things that just screams servant leadership which is something. That's what I feel like is sorely needed today in a lot of ways, right? This idea of yeah, he's a leader but he's also there because he loves us and he's he's trying to do Best by goddamn by us and by his family. Praise the Lord, Brother ruin had and I don't know what it was. Let me back up a little bit here. The latter part of my mission.

1:05:26 I was in charge of Los Angeles and being in charge of Los Angeles. I lived right? Close to the mission home and right by the Santa Monica Temple. So there were numerous times that there were Apostles that would come there because that was the headquarters of the whole mission and I would meet them become acquainted with them. Shake hands with them. Have a Patient with them, I met all of them, excuse me. I won't say men. All of my probably met, at least eight of all of them, even some that eventually became president of the church and, and they were gentlemen, they're courteous. But there were two men that stood far ahead of those Gerald senior and ruling all red, they just emanated. This are of I, I know what the Lord wants. I'm going to exemplify what the war Lord wants and and one of the biggest things about being a leader, you've just underlined making sure you protect agency.

1:06:43 That's uh that's one of the reasons. The FBI agents loved him and that the sheriff's loved him because they knew he was out there to protect the agency of people give people the right. Now, let me, let me think here he had a debt to homes up there. And physically there was just no way that he would be able to do a lot of work on his homes. Every three weeks, just there was no way and be able to take care of all the brothers and the sisters that wanted questions answered, plus spending time with these wives in these kids.

1:07:32 Now, when I say, there's no way, I guess he could say, okay, everybody over here, Saturday, and we're going to work on my house while we all talked gospel, while we're working on my house, he could have done that but all the time that I was there, he never did. He never did now, I helped on his house numerous times and but going back to Ethel again. Ethel. Was able to organize and recruit her home. Her home was, it was home still there. I was just in there for weeks ago. The home was old, it was make do, but the make do was orderly. The make do was say eight, the make do was clean. She would make sure everything was orderly in, how the one wife died in the, from the other house. Her name was Ruth.

1:08:34 And so ethylene Adept taken care of some of the kids that was with that one. And every time we would go in to that home, very orderly. She taught up and she said this is of course what what rule and would want and it's not it's what I want. I mean I want my home to be orderly, rather ruin tried to have everything orderly but at the same time, giving Agency. Now, I have to say there is one skeleton in the closet here, but in saying this, I hope it doesn't. Undermine all of the positive.

1:09:15 Rather ruling one time. Several of his sons were over with me and he was trying to have a family meeting and a family dinner and he couldn't find out where they're at. So he drives over there. He sees them with me, the haulers that I'm your boy as you get over here right now, Foods waiting no more of this. So I was kind of one of the bad guys, but I know brother ruling put his life on the line to save people's lives. He even delivered babies in Montana, but that wasn't that often.

1:10:03 But nevertheless you to talk about the law of Sarah, everybody. Let me just say the bottom line of the law of Sarah. We talked a little bit about that, it's extremely important and that is, she has her stewardship. And when a wife comes in We're getting now into courtship and marriage rules which Caesar principle Top by Joseph Smith. Madam is no man. Just walks around, says, wow. That's a cute little chick over there. And he goes and wines and dines.

1:10:47 Her and says, oh, let's get married. And he, he gets married, and then he goes home and introduce them to his two other wives. That's totally contrary, the principle of priesthood. That wife are those wives that he has has a full right to accept. This is under the law of Sarah to accept this new wine. And the priesthood Keys must know. We bottom line, we can't have another Colorado City where we find out. Five men are trading wives with five other men and making Two cows and two ton of hay and the priesthood doesn't know. It's very clear, brother'll woman and panetti. All of the key holders will say this. God knows those women in the pre-existence, where the covenants had been made between that man, and those ladies in the pre-existence.

1:11:58 And that is the first The first obligation is to open up the door that will happen. However, here's some exception. Once again, we get into agency and I'm going to use myself as an example even though I know there's other examples, but there was a lady that was supposed to come into our family. but her mother and your sister forbid, it So brother rule and said, well I know that she's supposed to go into your family but they forbid it. So under the rule of stewardship an agency. I even I'd the keyholder.

1:12:48 I cannot interfere with their agency. If that's what they choose to do and they'll try to do it in a very honorable way. Then I must providing the Lord says yes. And the Lord did Lord told him to let her go into the southern family. Even though he knew different and some say, oh boy, well, we would not ever allow that. Well, you've got a point where you've got to draw the line, we cannot take agency and they were ruling told both me and Gloria. Don said, God will have To work this out. When we go into the Hereafter that this happens happens numerous has happened.

1:13:38 Numerous times, it's not just me. So a key holder has to make sure he protects the agency. Now just give you another example. Brother Reel with know where a young lady was to go had nothing to do with me. but Owen was the Stepfather to this young lady. And Owen didn't want her to go. Where ruins said the Lord wanted. Brother ruined backed up. They have all agreed they wanted the other way.

1:14:19 God will still give his consent to perform the ceiling but I have no right to interfere with their agency. I'll have to turn it over to the Lord. Once again, that may sound like a contradiction, some may say well, that's very poor efficiency. Yeah. The adversarial be the very first one save lives for efficiency. You can't be, do you got to force them? Yep, angle. Horsham. You've got to make sure they have their agency brother room was of his very powerful stickler on that you make sure you provide agency. I remember different times when he put ceilings with, with my family and others that I was there, and I'm going to, I'm going to just going to put Becky right now. He took Becky to the side and said Becky is this Your desire. I want to hear from you, is this your design? And if she'd said no, he'd walked back out to sorry brother.

1:15:26 We can't do this. She has to do this because it's, it's her choice. You do not force a woman to marry where she doesn't want to marry. Okay. And that's and that's huge, right? That's huge. When we start looking at the horror shows that happen in Colorado. City under the Jeff's Family, right? Where they didn't have that kind of agency, they didn't have that kind of Freedom, right? And so the fact that this man who could have easily have decided, you know what? No, I hold the keys, it all stops here. He could have easily have done that but he went in the other direction of protecting people and especially women's agencies and who it is, they wanted to marry and I feel like that that's a huge point that needs to be made here. Right?

1:16:22 Because again oftentimes we have to come in and we have to break down these stereotypes that have been left to us because of Warren Jeffs. And and the atrocities that Happened in Colorado City. If you go back I think you can see this with muster and you can certainly see this obviously with with ruin, all red. Is this idea of protecting agency at all cost and and that agency is sacred, right? Look everything. Everything in the world, the lord can can can manipulate and make happen.

1:17:03 The one thing, he'll never try to do is to to force us to give up, our will write our ability to give up our will and Our agency, to Our Father in Heaven. That's on us to give, he's given us that. And it's the one thing that is just sacred above all other. Praise the Lord. You know, some of the things that I enjoyed talking to rule about the were more more private. He didn't get into a lot. I've touched a couple or three of them but one is to have your calling and election made.

1:17:46 Sure that was very one and another one that in reality God commands all of his Saints. To learn to get Revelation men and women not just the president of the priesthood or church, not just the apostles, not just Christian man, but everybody is to recognize, they have a responsibility to get Revelation and what and then there's a there's a ladder you got to climb up to get that. You got break your heart, you got a really fast, you got to really ask but We cannot have the fullness of Zion without every individual involved.

1:18:35 They're being able to get Revelation, otherwise there's going to be hesitation. It's when there's things asked to do now. Currently right now. Not everyone gets Revelation, so it doesn't mean. Well, you're all condemned. We just keep working at it. But if everyone thinks, well, gee, I never have to get Revelation. I can just go to my file leader, I can go to Michael. Now, Michael happens to be my file. Later, I'm just going to pull. But Michael turned right around, brothers and sisters. This is over the pulp new were talking. Learn to get Revelation. Michael didn't come up with that on his own. That's been continuous. Joseph Smith, tonic who we all need to we need to seek.

1:19:21 We need to seek to have This total Oneness of mine and heart and that's not going to happen. Simply because of Education, simply kids giving it to talk. It's going to happen because we have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And there were earnestly believing that God can talk to us because, you know, God's not so big and fancy, but he won't talk to a little grain of sand. That's why he's God is because he protects the right of the little sand in the whole desert.

1:20:02 And he wants the whole thing God's work and glory and I'm I'm quoting. Some of things ruin would say God's working glorious to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, if some man want to get to the telestial kingdom, it's better than hell and God will help him achieve that they want to give to the trash joke. Terrestrial, help him, it's not the celestial, but it's better than the t. Let's show her how Help. And if they want to give him the lowest degree of the celestial, you'll do everything you can. He won't for somebody to provide every bit and and the artwork is, you know, our work specifically in different in the mother Church, even though they don't hold the keys God's using them rather world, would always talk about the good that they're doing even today, he would talk about the good, they're doing to teach the basics, but our responsibility. And I'm and these are things that ruin would talk about behind the scenes or he would code them and people wouldn't understand.

1:21:12 We need our brother need to qualified become of the 144,000 high priest Apostle, because they will be the rulers under Jesus Christ. They will be the co inheritors of Jesus Christ, that will totally manage the world, they will all Become Gods. That's what Mormonism in its full. Effect is Apollo about to become God's going through the temple for other ruin. Always want to do Jenny ology. He talked about Jimmy ology. He did hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of Jenny ology research. He promoted Jenny ology promoted Temple work. I mean, the fullness of the Gospel is not simply. Plural marriage.

1:22:04 United order, the law of consecration. It is everything. If you don't have everything, it's not the fullness. It's a portion too often many fundamentalist. And I'm quoting ruined too many. Well, I got five wives, I've got 45 km/h, so surely God's got it all me, but no, I could care less about doing any Jenny ology history or any of that. A tie you know because I Got It Made because I got five wives and brother ruined his that poor guy, he doesn't know, he won't even probably get into the Celestial Kingdom. Course, there's example there he could be good, but trying to point out, you got to do it all.

1:22:51 You've got to do your temper, work your genealogy, work, your missionary work, you've got, pay your tithing, you got to pay consecration, you got to live United order, You got it, benchley. You've got to live in a patriarchal consecrated order, but just living in it. But, I'm going to get one thing. That's the simplest thing in the world, brother whom would talk about. He said, I do the very best I can that's pretty hard. If I get to bed at 4:00 in the morning and I got to get back and be at the office at 8:00, But almost every time I can I will write down in my journal. The basic things that took place that day. And then I will write down where I could have done it better and I right next time I will do this better, this brother and sisters, please do that.

1:23:53 And what he's trying to say is that we need to repent daily We need to constantly repent because if we're not walking on water and raising the dead and teleporting to the sun back and forth every day, we have not even come close to where we're supposed to. Because when it's all over, when it's all over, and we become perfect. And we come Sanctified and translated either that had a we come resurrected, we need to seek to become translated. And how do you become translated? You don't just come translate because I went 473 meetings and I paid 10,000 dollars tithing you become translated by, going through repentance, and manifesting, charity and love and having a total absolute. I single to the glory of God, I am preaching everything that rule and would be preaching.

1:24:56 This is all the things I've heard from ruin. And I absolutely loved and dirty. I knew there was man that were trying to kill him. And there's Miracles, I'm talking long before, lebaron's got persuaded by the labbadia. But Illuminati, the Illuminati was the intelligence. The lebaron's were simply the manifestation of killing, but brother, rule, and had to get rid of, Break up marriages. I know a marriage. There were several wives in the man was molesting his daughters for other rooms had sorry, but I have to release all your wives.

1:25:42 Now, I know of two of the lives that said, okay, we'll move on, but I know two of the wives said, no, we want to stay with brother real says, well you've got your agency but just so, you know, you're living in adultery because he has not reached the point of repentant. Wow. So what kind of father was ruling? Brother ruin. Brother rule and liked. Every Monday, whenever it was possible.

1:26:22 He would have time when he would not do anything with anybody else. No other people's meetings, no interviews, no marriages. Unless it was a critical problem, or there's a baby case emergency. And he gather all of the families together, that could gather together. And they would play pinochle, they would sing. They would do shows, he would give them blessings. He would try to personally, talk to each one of them as he possibly could. Obviously couldn't get it around at all the time.

1:27:04 He, he wanted to know who they were. He wanted to know their soul, and if he didn't have time, he'd ask the mothers, you know. So, and so is missing a tooth? How did that happen? Well, just got to that point, it fell out. Oh, well, that's good. So, they weren't in a fight, then no, it just fell out ruin. Another ruling would whenever he could, he like, Have wherever it when there was a break it like to take whatever kids and wives, they possibly could. And they go into the hills and hike and he would walk, and he would tell them about this shrub and that weed and this herb. That go fishing and he was a good fisherman. He was a good Hunter.

1:27:57 I don't remember hearing too many stories about the hunting. You just don't know that that he did all that. He wanted to take time and he wanted to take time, he always organized his life, so that he had whenever it was possible, he had one or more wives with him. Because, you know, at the end he had 16 wives. But most of the time that I knew him and I say, most of the time, Cry prior to may be the last, I'm just guessing on this 1974. This is a gas.

1:28:43 Make sure that's understood. He had about 11 wives that he would deal with and he would take those wife. But for actually died, he had 16 course tulip but like one time I will give this I will give this situation. There was some serious problems that it did involve my sister which had been investigating and she was trying to stay away from an ex-husband. and, He got the FBI and the Salt Lake County Sheriff's involved. And brother ruling was working with me to try to help me. Do what is best so that I would get in trouble and yet I'd be protected and protect her.

1:29:40 Forgive me, I just I totally lost my thought, no problem. We were talking about ruining and how what? He was like as a father. Oh, yes now. Okay. So I went to meeting I went to meet him one night. and, We talked for a little bit while and then all of a sudden, he thought, oh my word, I'm supposed to be to a baptism. So, I went and got his wife and he said, you can come if you'd like. And almost any time he would go to the different places. He would take one or two wives, and some may say, you mean he would never be alone with them. Well, yes, he would be when it time to go to bed, he be alone with the why And he wasn't alone with the wife to well, gee, I got to catch up on my sex appetite. He'd be alone with the wife.

1:30:36 See, cry, my shoulder. Let me hear what's going on with you. What do you want me to say to you? What do you need to know? How can I comfort you? What are the children? You'd want me to consider needing to help? What are we lacking in the way of food story? Do you just want to cry on my shoulder? And I'll just listen. He he he loved his children. He was good to his children. Loved his wife now. Am I to say that he never told them off, or got after him? That's not true. He did tell the mom. But am I also wanted to make sure once there someone was corrected, he was constantly that hair to show them love and if he did get after him and they did get chastised or or told it had done something wrong. He made sure that he loved him.

1:31:31 Let him know that he cared about and loved him. He tried very much to do things. And there were in that I was, I became a relative through marrying, his brother's daughter, we were invited to the reunions from time to time. Wow. And I know brother ruling was pretty good at Water fighting. All right, so I feel like that really paints a good picture of who the man is, right, and what he was about. I'm going to ask you to talk a little bit about a sensitive subject now and that was how ruined passed Beyond the Veil and what happened there.

1:32:30 Okay. Brother Rowland. Now, some will say, well, how do you know this? It would take a while to give documentation. If we have time, that could be done. But brother rule, the new at least two years in advance. But he was going to to go and that he was going to go. In an unnatural way. But he did not reveal that. To anybody. Well I won't say didn't reveal it to anybody, but I never heard it being announced.

1:33:11 I did hear two or three people years later. They went through their journal and said, wow! He said I have got to do this by this date. I've got to get all this done. Which led them to realize. Well, that was the date in that same area that he died. He had a premonition That he was going to go. He knew he had to have his blood shed in order for him to fulfill his mission. Not everyone's supposed to do that, but he changed the. He just stage the dispensation and he knew he had to have his blood shed and if you can imagine him saying to his life. Well, ladies, one of these days, I know it's going to happen, I'm going to get I'm going to get shot to death. Oh no.

1:34:06 Well then don't go to work that day. Let's stay home constantly. That's not the way it's supposed to be my dears. He would say. We've got to go day by day and do whatever it is, that will be the most pleasing to the Lord. Hmm. He gave the keys. As near as we can get the records, he gave the presiding keys to Gerald Peterson, senior, probably in the early fall of 1976.

1:34:52 There's been a lot of criticisms and problems which wasn't new. Ruling had gone through it. And Gerald Peterson was going through it. But Gerald Peterson came to me. We were in the order. I was assisting him in leading the amount of you order their standee When we met in a little building, well, it wasn't all that little bit was in the end restoring. It was a two-level readmit down there in the summer. It was cool in the winter, we could shut the door and have a little heater and we'd be private. Just brother drilling.

1:35:39 I'm discovering his complaining against me. And it's breaking my heart. I have a list of things here. But I would like to present to him and course in this discussion, we talked about maybe it doesn't think that was just one of a dozen. And finally, he said, you know, I'm going to ask God what he wants me to do few days later. He said, God told him turn this over to me, do not approach through and not any of these things. Then a few days later, ruling called said Gerald.

1:36:19 Jerry. I need you to come see me as soon as possible. so I'm telling you how how it actually turned it out because I didn't know all of it at the time, I didn't know the whole thing till after but rather ruin when when he gets there He says, the Lord has personally chastised me, but I am out of order that I have negatively, affected your mission and that I must get your forgiveness. I must repent of this and get your forgiveness. Will you please forgive me? I'm grandpa said, yes, I absolutely. I'll forgive you.

1:37:00 He says further, the Lord has told me that I am now to give you the presiding keys, but you cannot pass that on at this time without my permission. So he gave him the key. Now, brother ruling. So we now get into the latter part of 1976 and I apologize without me going back to all of the journals. I can't tell you for sure, but in general, it could have been october-november. Even December of 1976 brother ruined.

1:37:44 Oh, we are also now. Trying to impeach President, Carter not just in Utah, but Nationwide. and, Brother realness started me to get more and more, and more threats. They're calling his family calling the office, letting him know if you if he doesn't cease and desist. This, you won't have a husband. Which was putting fear in them and a no one wanted him to cool it. His wives are ruined, the Lord's command me to do this.

1:38:25 I've got to do this in the school of the prophets which was the first Sunday of every month and only a handful of Brethren were invited to that. There's, you know, maybe several thousand brother and but there was only, maybe 25 That were invited and I happen to be blessed, be one of those. In trying to do this with impeaching Carter, there were those that were cooperating quite well and those Souls that were resisting. But in the school, the property opened up more and more and he was giving a report.

1:39:06 So, two months before he died on that Monday, he said, we are making progress. Bill Kerner was the one he put in charge to go Nationwide. Bill Kerner. I've been in, he'd been worked in Washington. He had been in the military, he knew a lot of generals, a lot of other things, and he'd had some Miracles. Absolute Miracles, that's a whole story in itself where numerous times he should have got killed. He didn't, he converted people to Mormonism because they said, if you're awake, you're alive tomorrow morning. I'm joining your church. And sure enough it was alive.

1:39:53 Anyway, he joined the fullness so he would deal with all over. So there was big progress. Then the very two weeks before Ruth got killed on the 10th and I think it was a very last. The very first day of May, I think it was a very first day of May. I'm not be wrong. It may have been the second place track now. But anyway, School of prophets, 7:00 in the morning said, probably the Illuminati. I'm quoting the Illuminati. Now knows who it is. That's trying to impeach Carter.

1:40:36 And they are. It is the responsibility of the priesthood to Bear witness to the wickedness that's going on. And we must go to the doors of the very luminosity and bear witness to that we can do. Now, that's probably 80% word for word that he said. We now it may not have been perfect. Now, the night before. There was a wedding reception and Gloria done, and had a dream, either one, or two years. Before that in this dream, ruined would come walking up to her and say my dear.

1:41:22 I am going to give your daughter charity, a patriarchal blessing in the very near future. And that happened. So Gloria. Don said, I know something's going to happen. I know something's going to happen when because that dream. So now the next day in the morning, we have that and you oh probably 3 or 4 weeks before that to Brethren. Many had volunteered my father-in-law being one of them, well, had several father-in-law's, but Ivan Baker could be a bodyguard for him because he was getting more than normal threats and to Brethren John Ray. And I don't remember who the other was, neither one of them knew the out better, when was outside of his residence, in a car, they both had guns.

1:42:22 And then they are starting to keep an eye on the one then they suddenly realize, oh that's brother so-and-so. Best brother, who put the gun away? Brother ruined when he heard that he said brother no more. I don't know what that anymore. I am not and I'm quoting. The, the idea that he presented rather and God knows when I'm supposed to die, and it will not happen a minute sooner. But when it's supposed to happen, it will happen. I do not want any of my brethren getting killed in trying to protect me. So, I don't want this anymore.

1:43:06 I'm telling you see some to sin. Now, if you read that whole sentence, you realize that he's knowing that it's going to happen, right? How I'm building this up. Okay, now there's a whole bunch involved in Hindi, it's not just a matter where we got to pay the funeral bill. It's it's we have a man that's in charge of the kingdom of God. Political Charge of the well, he wasn't in charge of the church even though he had rights to be in charge.

1:43:48 But he was through well at that time. David. Oh my cake passed away. So there was not that relationship anymore, but he was the presiding priesthood key holder. and, There's a lot of things that has to be done. He looks and I'm I'm condensing this down. Sure. Realizes when I was given the keys. This whole group spill up so bad. that it broke my heart and I told Joseph, I don't want him give him to somebody else.

1:44:30 Joseph said, that's not the way God wants it, but Joseph, it's going to split up. There's so many people that hate me. They don't like I mean the majority of the people don't like me ruin and then he could see the majority of the people did not like Gerald Peterson. So how do you do this? How do you keep good people advancing and those who want to be higher than good people Learning. Here's how you do it. You take brother Owen and you bless him publicly?

1:45:12 That he will be the leader. Of this group of people you bless him with inspiration, guidance, understanding, and patience that he will lead these people in righteousness but you do not give him the keys. But you bless him with everything. That's needed to lead those people. And then you've already given the key to Gerald Peterson, senior. so, He reminds. And I'm very, very, very good friends with some of these kids. And then particular one, that's Carol. I am a very sweet. Sweet girl.

1:45:57 And I say girls she's she's 80 some years old but she still sweet girl. And She Sue several of the kids but day he got killed. He went out of his way to say. I love you. Above normal more than normally. I love you honey. I love you remember. I love you and Carol Ann said he just made Shores. I want you to know. I love you. Well, I love you too. Daddy.

1:46:37 I I'm absolutely convinced that he knew it. Okay. Now, so he's inside there. Now, you know, in that this is going to be public. What I'm saying, there's some things, I'm hesitant to go into sure. I will, I will just say, I do believe without giving any names. That there was some. People that didn't like ruin. But interconnected with lebaron's. And helped provide information to get him at the right time.

1:47:18 That's my feeling. I won't go in to me now. So when it happened It was bang. Bang bang. I wasn't there. I was down here. I know several weeks before, when I was in pain, Qin, or not taken Sandy, Before we actually started moving. So it's probably two months. Six weeks to months. I know I was outside. Getting ready to go to work. And I was in a rush. I've been in school because I taught to. I taught a class in the very beginning. In the early morning, I had my own business, so could regulate my schedule?

1:48:07 And I hadn't had a lot of time other than Bam, Bam and do everything I need to do. And I saw Gloria the hi, honey. What's going on? How you doing, even though she was in the school or so? And she looked very serious and what's going on. Well, mom says that Joseph master. Came to Dad last night and said he's going to soon. Come get ruling. And course, shook me up. Oh, no, only a Groove. I don't want to hear such a thing. My, I had a mental block. I don't want to hear anything about. I was down here. When he actually got killed. So I was up there that weekend that we talked about, just talked about both for the wedding reception, which was Era Terraces, which was his daughter Melanie and it was coy as brother Jairus.

1:49:05 That they got married. Then the next morning that the school of the prophets and him talking about that course, that will that running in my mind all the time. This is, then when Gloria done to, something's going to happen, I know something's going to happen because that dream just got the pills last night. And she either had one or two years before, which she's always been psychic. She'll have things like that. So, I bring a load down here. I'm down here working. And here comes Lynn wild which is the brother of Ted Weill from st.

1:49:46 George and he and Lynn talked for a few minutes. And I'm still doing a little digging. Kind of getting ready to close up for the night. And Ted blind, come over and Ted says, loons. Got something. He's got it. Tell you. Groom has been killed, and I fell to the ground. I totally lost my energy. I just borderline passed out. I can kind of just I just absolutely fell to the ground. I could hardly get out. Hardly get my breath. And Ted took.

1:50:27 Well, how do you want to go and tell the girls? So I took a while for me to get my breath back and we had to Grandpa's wives and one of mine here at the time and their kids. We got them into the room. I said, we've just been informed that the ruling has been killed. of course, it was heartbreaking to them, but some of them Elaine had already had a dream several weeks before that ruin was going to be taken.

1:51:11 And in the dream, he met un was Owens daughter. In the dream. Jesus and the the original worthy Twelve Apostles came out of the ceiling. totally encircled him and Jesus handed him this big key of rings and Elaine said, That dream. I know that my dad's not going to hold the keys, it's going to be Grandpa. Anyway, so I'm not being there, I can just report. Several shots. He knew they'd never two ladies, they never tried to shoot any other person.

1:51:59 But they came back and forth. They left and they walked back out and tried to shoot again to make sure that he was dead. Now. Here's where I'm telling I'm putting pieces together. Rather ruin talked to several loved ones in the next little while. But He went very soon to Gerald Peterson senior very soon. Meaning it was probably less than an hour because when rivlin and got killed the word spread and and I think it was Bill bowls but aren't sure called the office.

1:52:53 And call you answer the phone. Cuz she was working in the office there are manganite in Provo. And she handed it to Grandpa. He was just writing something down the one of the patient because they said rule has been killed. So she handed it to Grandpa. And when he heard rumors big killed, he says all murder. Mmm quiet. Can't have anymore patience. I think there was only one left anyway, closed down. So, probably within 20 minutes, they all went upstairs in the.

1:53:37 Have you ever been in the manga night? No. Do you even know what it is? Yes. Okay, it's a four-story building. One of the stories is in the ground. Anyway, shoulder upstairs and he is in. In that one bigger room. That was a room for private lectures experimenting. Testing he did things with different types of organic and minerals gold medicines. He would mix them and make them or Vale them in there. We had numerous times we would meet there and have well in their order there was times sometimes I would be down there and we would consider Koya stayed there during the week. And we would have meetings on learning how to get Revelation and it would be in that room.

1:54:46 Anyway, he was in there now, Gloria, I mean, Koya and grandma, that's for certain but I'm not sure about Lana. But the piece that I've understand, that they were together, and then Lana is going to go downstairs. So she's going downstairs and she's very psyche as she's walking downstairs. She sees ruin walking upstairs. And he says, hi Lana. And she says, hi brother ruin and then all of a sudden she stopped Sora o, she looks back, see and she doesn't seem Well. That's when he's in there and he says, Jerry you remember me giving you the keys?

1:55:38 And now I'm in that can go Keys. You do must put them into Force. He didn't want to do it. I don't want to do it. Nobody will follow me. I mean you can't be serious Rule and nobody's going to follow me. Plus it was already been very clearly announced that all when had been given the direction to lead the people so grandpa. I do this part. I don't know. He may have thought, well, maybe ruined changed his mind and decided to give him to Owen but then ruling. No. He's to be the leader of the AUB are the wasn't called a you be.

1:56:21 It's called Always group. But you are hold the keys and you were to move forward. Well, there's conversation back and forth. And for several weeks he had a very bad sciatic pain. That went down one of these legs. I don't remember which one coming out of the lumbar brother rules and says I'm going to, I'm going to bless you right now. To be assigned to you, that this is serious and that God wants you to do this. You absolutely had no pain and then we all left. Well, when really like their they and he appeared to Gloria Dawn in Sandy And all of a sudden, she saw him.

1:57:11 But she was a little stunned nation and a man by the name of Abraham's son, which is passed away now, they both saw him but then ruling said to Gloria Dawn Gloria. I won't want you to know that I have given your dad, the keys and you are to let everybody in this state nor this building or or this United order know that I I have given him the keys. Now, those are two things that directly affect me on a very personal basis, but I have talked with others, which I can't remember all of them. But he came and talked with them for just one minute and gave him some kind of comfort her encouragement or hope told him they loved.

1:58:10 Or gave him that answer to something now. I was in total. Shocked. Being down here. And I just, I was just overwhelmed. All right. I didn't have a witness. Who would hold the key from Logic on all red with hold the keys? But I knew, oh no, red did not get Revelation. I Newton's a good guy. A very kind man, honest man. But I knew he didn't get Revelation numerous times, ruling be in the hospital. And I needed to get some key level answered so I thought, well, I'll go to brother Owen and asking he'd give me a direction, but if I left, I thought, you know, I'm just going to hold off on this.

1:59:10 So maybe a week later ruling to be out of the hospital and I would tell Owen that I did this, but I didn't tell ruling but I'd already asked going. I just give him the same question. And he would give me an answer, but I knew that the answer ruin Gabe was under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. I knew the answer that came from Owen wasn't evil, it was just practical. And I've been around over on the knife. He's my father-in-law had worked with him. An honest, man, he went. I mean, he would do anything for anyone that was to me. Anyway, so I was struggling.

1:59:55 Oh my word. Well, I'm a nervous wreck. I'm stressed because there'd been persecution prior lot of ridicule Prime for a couple months. And when we ended up going to pay Qin, Brother ruined. There's a lot of pieces I'm not even talking about because there's not time but rather ruling Das, Gerald, Peterson to do several projects. But each case, It involved can consent of the council and or finances which he wanted the council to sustain it and they'd said no one particular one was Cedar quartz just, just on the west side of the mountain range where the Utah Lake Side, just on the opposite side.

2:00:52 And that particular side, I was personally involved in because we got in these plain Grandpa's Geraldton, and we flew over took pictures. I took pictures while he flew of all of the property because there were several hundred acres and ruin wanted all kinds of data, waterlogged soil test samples altitude. Everything for design and grandpa had a just a rough basic design. Presented it to him, brother rule and wanted him to go ahead and do it. Be said, oh God, talk to the council and they voted it down, but it was one of about four things. So when have I talked with you about penguin, how to get back when yeah, yet?

2:01:42 No, you have brother, Orson. We're up against time here real quick, and I have loved this conversation and I Want to do more with you but I have to wrap up right now. Okay. Um well hold on one second. Is there a way before we end this? If I could just get you to Bear your, testimony of who ruin was and what he meant to you. Praise the Lord. Brother ruling was the epitome of being a Godly Man like the Lord Jesus Christ to me. In the beginning that I knew him, I knew he was a perfect. But I knew he was determined with all his heart to become perfect.

2:02:33 In the latter few months. He kept putting his life on the line and I knew that that, man. I felt my personal belief. I felt, he had reached a point that he was perfect according to his knowledge now. Obviously Joseph Smith knows more Moses new law, but according to his knowledge which was Superior to anybody else on the Earth. I knew that he was the most perfect man that I've ever met in the flesh. And I loved him, I trusted him. I'm so proud to know and I'm so thankful to God, but God provided the way that we had many very personal relationships and he personally taught me things, but even some of his family didn't even get taught. And I just feel overwhelmed, but I had that Triple H in the Gloria Dunn had that truly, I know he was a man of God. I know he had the presiding keys of the priesthood. I know that he personally had a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

2:03:51 I know that he, I know that he knew his Redeemer. I know that he knew the Lord and dealt with the Lord. I know that he dealt with the Prophet Joseph Smith. Praise the Lord. Now, I could go on and on and on I knew that he was a gentleman. I am in, he was kind, I knew he was well educated. I knew that he cared about everybody. I knew that he had brothers and sisters that didn't like the fullness at all, but he'd always be kind to him. It always care for them. I knew that he was a morally clean, man. He was of the highest level of virtue.

2:04:33 But you can possibly be, there was absolutely no Vice immorality in that map. When he delivered babies, he interconnected with, with God, the heavenly father, let me bring forth. He had respect for Womanhood. He protected. He loved women to be virtuous. He understood he understood male and female bodies, He, he knew that they were they were temples of God. Not just lash, holy temples. He was a friend.

2:05:15 He was a patriarchal leader. He was a key holder. Many times, he was kind to me whose numerous times. He answered my questions when I knew he was tired. and I, I could say more and more. But no, I think I think that's fantastic Orson. Thank you so much for coming on here and telling this story about these stories about ruin. I can't stress enough how they're certain men and Mormonism, whose Footprints get left for forever. And ruin is definitely one of those men.

2:05:56 So the fact we could take this time and talk about it, and we can pass this on to. Those who listen to this podcast, I can't thank you enough for going into some very sensitive and sometimes painful places and I love you and I can't wait to have you back on because there's there's other things I'd love to talk to you about. You have a wealth of knowledge and experience that that I definitely want to dive into. So I really do appreciate you and your willingness to talk here on the podcast. God bless. It's been a pleasure.

2:06:36 All right. Bye everybody. Bye bye. Thank you. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.