Episode #57: Fighting Back Against Revisionist History Concerning Joseph Smith & Plural Marriage W/Jacob Vidrine

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If you remember a few weeks
back, I had Kimberly Watson

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Smith on the podcast and we had
an epic conversation where she

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laid out the scriptures improved
that Celestial plural.

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Marriage is divine principle on
this episode of the podcast.

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I have Jacob between back on to
talk about the history of

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plural.
Marriage in the restoration,

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Joseph's Revelation on the
subject and plural marriage in

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the Utah period Jacob sources
and presentation of that history

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are absolutely Rock Solid.
Solid and put to shame the

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revisionist history.
That seems to be peddled today

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in some parts of Mormonism and
that's next on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Well Jacob, it's been a minute,
man.

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Have you been in good?
Dave, how are you doing?

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Good man.
Well, how's life been treating

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you?
Well, yep.

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Just, you know, excited for
spring time, hopefully will come

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soon and said this back and
forth.

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One day, Sunday Monday, winter
here in Utah.

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I know you've probably been
dealing with that.

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Also, dude, I'll tell you what,
if anybody wants an example of

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what bipolar looks like, they
just need to look at our

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weather, some days.
It's you know you swear.

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It's almost summer and then the
next day it dropped 18 inches of

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snow.
So it's nuts.

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But dude, I'm glad you're here.
I mean, We've talked when we

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talked about doing this episode.
I just find it so important

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today with all the pushback
against plural marriage and I

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feel like the more voices I get
out there with with people who

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can make a doctrinally based
argument about it is just huge,

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so I appreciate you coming on.
Well, I'm glad to be on and this

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is, you know, this is honestly
when it comes to the gospel,

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there are so many other topics
that I personally think I'm way

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more important to talk about.
But for example, when I first

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got into fundamentalism and
Mormon history, one of my

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teachers who taught me Mormon
history, basically was handing a

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bunch of material and he kind of
skipped over the plural marriage

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material saying, if you're like
me, you know, that battle has

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already Already been fought and
won and I was like, yeah.

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And he's like, he probably be a
lot more interested in Priest it

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and I'm like yep that's true.
But unfortunately as we've seen

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the last several years, the
battle over plural.

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Marriage has almost rebooted
where it's almost an exact

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repeat of what was going on in
the 1860s, 1870s and 1880s.

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So that means the battles back
to the issue and it's an

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important issue to have a
conversation about Out, you

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know, I think you bring up a
good point there that I think

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points to a larger principle, I
don't think we can ever look at

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these principles and just assume
that the battles won.

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Right.
I think sometimes we get this

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feeling of complacency like well
the history is obvious, right?

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Or doctrine is obvious and as
soon as we neglect that part of

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the fortification so to speak to
go build up against something

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else, the adversary will try to
get in on the other side.

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That's so true.
And for me what I think is, you

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know, why this is so important
not just for you and I who are

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fundamentalist and believe that
people can be Authorized by God

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to practice it today.
But also for mainstream LDS

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members, this is an important
issue because it is ultimately

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an attack on the entire Temple
doctrine, that Joseph Smith

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restored as the Pinnacle of the
last several years of his life.

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If you attack plural marriage,
you throw into question,

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everything else about the temple
from the endowment to Eternal

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Marriage to baptism for the
dead.

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And you can see that in the lot
of this growing plugin.

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Me skeptic or polygamy denial
movement where it's just an

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all-out attack on the temple and
those last doctrines that Jones

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Smith established during the
last several years of his life.

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Yeah, yeah.
And I want to get this Well, you

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know what?
I'm going to sit on it.

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I'm going to sit on it and see
how I feel towards the end but a

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lot.
Okay, why don't we go ahead and

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get started here then?
So do not start off by, you

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know, for me, the big question
for for me when I talk to a lot

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of people who understand come
from the political Kalinga me

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skeptic cap it comes down to, is
it moral more rather than was it

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historical, they're framing
their historical perspective,

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based off of, they really like
Joseph.

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That they want to believe in
Joseph Smith, that they can't

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accept Joseph Smith as a
polygamist because of their

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moral problems.
You know, they find it morally

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questionable at best.
And so for me, that's why it's

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always important to start off
with the doctor and even though

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both the doctrine and the
history are important subjects.

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I hope we can find talk about
tonight.

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So, absolutely.
Yeah.

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Let's I think that's a good
place.

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Let's establish it doctrinally
that I think is the Most

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important question and then
let's move on to historical the

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the historicity part of things
because I think that's almost as

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important as much as
doctrinally.

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So to start off with that, just
a quote by Brigham Young on

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this.
He said because some people that

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are the most common
misconceptions that it's about

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lust, or it's about carnal
desires, but Brigham Young is

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very explicit on So many times
where he said, quote God never

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introduced the patriarchal order
of marriage with a view to

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please man, and his carnal
desires nor to punish females

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for anything, which they had
done, but he introduced it for

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the express purpose of raising
up to his name.

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A royal priesthood, A peculiar
people.

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Do we not see the benefits of
it?

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Yes, we have lived long enough
to realize its advantages.

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He said, suppose I had the
privilege of only one wife.

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I should have only three sons
for those are all that my first

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wife bore.
Whereas now I am buried five

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sons and I have 13 In living is
obvious that I could not have

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been blessed with such a family.
If I had been restricted to one

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wife but by the introduction of
the slaw, I can be the

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instrument of preparing
Tabernacles for those Spirits

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which come into this
dispensation and so really, it's

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not about lust, it's a you know,
it's a matter of principle, not

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a matter of passion is what the
early brother and said over and

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over again.
And they actually were against

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men who got into plural marriage
because of this luster.

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And for example or person hide
made a comment that I just love

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that.
He says I've heard it remark

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sometimes by individuals who are
not identified or connected with

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our church that they could only
be convinced polygamy was true.

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They would become Mormons at
once.

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Well, I say, do you believe in
the Bible?

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Certainly I do.
So The Enquirer did Father.

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Abraham, the ancient Patriarchs
live in this relation and

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practice this Doctrine, you just
made you say that they did it.

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Then if they practice it, you're
bound to be a Mormon upon.

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Your own hypothesis and reason.
But gentlemen, if I knew this

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was the all convincing argument
that it was the principal

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Doctrine alone influence you to
become a Mormon.

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I should at once, they never let
me baptize, such a person, let

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me never be the agent to bring
such a person into the church or

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kingdom of God.
God despises every character who

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had entered this church for no
other purpose than to criminally

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and dull JH.
His National is natural

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propensities so you know, so
they said it's about raising up

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a royal priesthood and it's
about really some people say

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it's about quantity, but I think
the priesthood rather than be

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born into broken families or,
you know, other an ideal

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situations.
That's the idea of bringing

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those giving Spirits an
opportunity to be born into

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families with the gospel, is one
of the big reasons for her

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plural, marriage.
So when we, when we get into the

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scriptures, that that's what it
comes down to when it comes down

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to the doctrine ality of it, as
they mentioned, it's clearly in

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the Bible.
It's clearly what?

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The Patriarchs practice the Is
whether God approved it or not.

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Is is the million dollar
question and the Skeptics always

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point to Jacob, chapter 2 to say
that.

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God doesn't approve of it.
They think it's most correct

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book.
Jacob.

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Chapter 2.
But for me and my, my personal

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Quest, For Truth does Jesus
Christ ever either in his mortal

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Ministry, in the New Testament,
in any of the gospels or in 3rd

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Nephi to the Nephites giving
them his Is the fullness of

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those gospel?
Does Christ ever say a word

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against plural, marriage and
from your, from your

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Recollections is.
Yeah, I think he says, he does

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nothing.
Say if he saw his father, do it.

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But he never says that.
So for example, plural marriages

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is permitted in the Old
Testament and Xs where even says

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you know that God permits you
know that you can take another

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wife as long as you do not
neglect your first wife in you

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know her necessities of life or
her marital rights.

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Right is what right?
Exodus 21 verse 10.

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Says if I'm remembering the
first right off the top of my

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head but this Christ ever say
that Moses got it wrong.

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Wrong and permitting plural,
marriage?

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You know, is so so I say for me,
when I look at the gospel and

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needs to be centered on what
Jesus Christ taught.

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First and foremost, you know,
other prophets are great.

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Jacob in the Book of Mormon is a
prop true Prophet.

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00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,900
I think he's absolutely an
inspired Prophet, but my rock

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needs to be on Jesus Christ and
what he talked.

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And the only thing he really is
really warns people about It's

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like, you know, divorce and he
says, Moses permitted because of

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the hardness of your hearts.
It's not an ideal thing.

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It's, you know, God joined them
together and let no man.

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Divide them asunder, you know.
Correct.

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That's that's something in every
single gospel.

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And so I would think that if
Christ had a problem with the

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Old Testament Practice of plural
marriage and said, I think he

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00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:06,900
would have been explicit and you
know that's something you find

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throughout the New Testament.
Is that while the Old Testament

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is very clearly permits it,
where there's Patriarchs priests

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prophets Kings, who are
polygamous, you the New

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Testament never condemns them
for doing that.

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00:13:20,500 --> 00:13:23,300
And so, the question becomes,
how do we fit it with Jacob

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00:13:23,300 --> 00:13:26,300
chapter 2?
And the real question you should

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00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:28,900
be asking when you're look at
Jacob, chapter 2 is Jacob

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00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:33,800
chapter 2 revealing a higher law
or a lower law when you're

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00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:38,900
looking at the condemnation of
polygamy and Jacob chapter 2 and

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00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:42,200
in my opinion, when you look at
the context, who is he speaking?

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00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:46,500
Is he speaking to a bunch of
righteous people know?

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00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:49,000
He's speaking to people and
condemning them for their

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00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,300
wickedness.
And so I think it's much more

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00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:56,500
clear from the context of Jacob
chapter 2 that he's giving them

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00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:58,900
a lower law.
He's saying, you guys because of

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00:13:58,900 --> 00:14:02,400
your wickedness are not to live
plural, marriage.

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00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:06,600
This is how I interpret that.
And so for me personally when

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00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,600
people Center their entire
outlook on plural marriage from

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00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,100
a Jacob chapter two
perspectives, - it's almost what

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00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:17,100
I would consider like an
Evangelical who bases their

242
00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:20,500
entire perspective on the gospel
of Christ from one appals

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00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:23,300
Epistles.
I say oh if you just read Paul,

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00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:25,900
you know, if you just read this
Epistle of Paul, that summarizes

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00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:29,100
the gospel, in my opinion, you
need to go with what?

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00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:31,800
Jesus Christ, talk.
First and foremost.

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00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,300
Well let's let's talk about
Jacob to for just a second here.

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00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,100
Right?
Because he also gives a caveat

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00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:42,100
in that in that he says you're
not to do this unless the Lord

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00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:48,200
Commands right.
Okay, so don't do it.

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00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:54,100
Unless the Lord commands I would
say this DNC 132 is very clear

252
00:14:54,800 --> 00:15:01,000
that it was restored right and
to my knowledge a Manifesto that

253
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:06,400
says to whom it may concern
isn't to Revelation and it

254
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:10,000
doesn't negate the Commandment
that was given.

255
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,500
So even if you want to put all
your eggs, Eggs in one basket on

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00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:16,500
Jacob, to you have to
understand.

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00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:23,000
Jacob, does give a caveat in
there, where he says, unless the

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00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:27,000
Lord commands it, don't do it.
But when it comes to the Latter

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00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,500
Day Saints, the command was
definitely given.

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00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:35,800
Now when you look at it really
plural marriage more than any

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00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,400
other principal, the gospel.
We believe it needs to be

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00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,900
directed by Revelation from God,
right?

263
00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:44,300
It doesn't just come from
Yourself in your own desire but

264
00:15:44,300 --> 00:15:47,300
that you need to be given
Revelation from God to live it.

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00:15:47,500 --> 00:15:50,700
In fact, that actually reminds
me of like ww, Phelps recalled,

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00:15:50,700 --> 00:15:54,300
Joseph Smith told him.
He's so there is a revelation in

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00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:59,700
July of 1831, about
intermarriage with the lamanites

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00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:02,600
which was understood to be a
revelation that plural marriage

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00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,300
would eventually be restored and
WWE Phelps.

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00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,000
Records has a copy of this
Revelation and he sends it to

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00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,300
you know he copies it.
It sends it to Brigham Young,

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00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:17,400
but also with this comment
afterwards, he says, quote about

273
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,800
three years after this
Revelation was given.

274
00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:22,800
I asked, Brother, Joseph
privately, how we that were

275
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,500
mentioned in this Revelation
could take wives of the natives

276
00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:30,200
as we were all married men.
He replied instantly in the same

277
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,700
air that Abraham took, Hagar and
canterna and Jacob took Rachel

278
00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:37,700
bilhah and zilpah by Revelation.
The Saints of the Lord are

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00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:43,000
always directed by revelation.
And so you're right.

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00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:47,100
You know, we did there should be
this cautious - in regards to

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00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:51,400
people going after it based off
of their own desires and not

282
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:55,200
having the Lord, direct them
because according to what

283
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,400
Brigham Young said.
And according to what Lyman lat,

284
00:16:57,500 --> 00:17:00,900
why tree called Joseph Smith
told the apostles and warn them

285
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,800
that quote the principle of
plural marriage would quote damn

286
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,500
more men than it would save and
Brigham Young said, the use of

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00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:12,800
it will send thousands to hell
and so Um, just like you

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00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,200
mentioned Jacob to verse 30,
that caveat for if I will I will

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00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,200
command my people.
Otherwise they shall hearken

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00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,800
unto these things.
And I have sources showing that

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00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,200
as early as 1840 for, that was
being used as the pro polygamy

292
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,099
verse.
Like, people try to say that

293
00:17:28,099 --> 00:17:31,000
that was a later
reinterpretation know, it was

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00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,500
used that way and Nabu is a
propylene gummy bears.

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00:17:34,700 --> 00:17:39,700
But there's also verse 27, 3
verses earlier where Jacob

296
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:45,200
tubers Even interestingly says
that no man among you shall have

297
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,900
but one wife.
So it's interesting that it's,

298
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,000
you know, it's it's not in all
kinds of places.

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00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:56,100
Why would he include the among
you to that verse?

300
00:17:56,300 --> 00:17:59,600
If it wasn't, if it was supposed
to be an eternal period that God

301
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:04,400
never would be okay with plural
marriage, right, right.

302
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:10,700
So So, but you do have to go
into Jacob chapter 3 as well.

303
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,900
So, Jacob 3 verse 5.
I'm just turning to it real

304
00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:21,200
quick.
So Jacob 3 verse 5 says but

305
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,100
there was a commandment to their
father, Lehi, which was given of

306
00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:27,200
the Lord that they should have
saved were one wife and

307
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:31,900
concubine say she'd have none so
they threw father Lehi where

308
00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:34,900
actually the early Nephites were
given a commandment not to

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00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:37,500
practice poem.
Actually Orson Pratt.

310
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,800
Interestingly commented on this.
He said, this is the only place

311
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:46,400
in Scripture that I am aware of
where, any branch of the House

312
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,600
of Israel was forbidden from the
practice of plural, marriage.

313
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:53,000
And he goes, why was it?
Because they was too small, he

314
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,700
said they were.
They were all under the guidance

315
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:58,600
of the Lord and it would have
been too small of a population

316
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:03,000
for it to work.
And so that brings to mind other

317
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:09,800
statements about about you know,
because some people say that why

318
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,800
doesn't the scriptures?
Why don't the scriptures tell us

319
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,300
about Adam being a polygamist
what they say Noah was a

320
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:17,200
polygamous.
If this is, you know, this was

321
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:22,000
essential higher law and part of
it could be say it was left out

322
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,500
of the record for, you know,
specific purposes.

323
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:28,400
There's some arguments about
Adam potentially having multiple

324
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,900
wives on this Earth.
But I certainly, again, would I

325
00:19:31,908 --> 00:19:34,500
think Brigham was pretty clear
that he did, if you read the

326
00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:36,700
Journal of discourses, This is
volume one, right?

327
00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:40,600
Where he says Adam came to this
Earth with one of his wives Eve.

328
00:19:42,300 --> 00:19:45,600
Well, he said, he definitely had
them in heaven, but you know,

329
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,400
it's questionable whether the
atom on Earth and basically what

330
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,900
Brigham Young said.
As to the monogamy of Father,

331
00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:55,700
Adam and mother Eve.
He said that they were just

332
00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:57,600
enough to get the population
started.

333
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,200
And he basically said, part of
the reason for plural marriage

334
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:06,300
is because of a wicked world
where men are inclined to

335
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,700
wickedness and thus depriving
women of the opportunity to have

336
00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:12,700
a righteous husband and so
Brigham you get sand.

337
00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:15,900
So that's why I say in the
beginning of the Nephites,

338
00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:18,300
they're given a special
commandment not to look for

339
00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:20,900
America because there are equal
number and they're all under the

340
00:20:20,900 --> 00:20:23,000
guidance of the Lord at that
time.

341
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,600
But later on, in the Book of
Mormon, you can see that's a

342
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,700
amulek, was a polygamist.
There's other examples of

343
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:34,000
hinting at polygamy by different
individuals in the Book of

344
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,500
Mormon.
So in that and so that would

345
00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:41,900
explain why I say Adam or no, I
weren't necessary polygamists in

346
00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:46,700
In the beginning of the general,
their Generations is because

347
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,500
there wasn't a, you know, it was
starting a clean slate, if that

348
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:53,700
makes sense, right?
And so, and so, that's one

349
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:55,500
argument.
If you don't want to believe in

350
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:59,000
the arguments that I may have
had other wives, but it's not

351
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,200
explicitly laid out in the, in
the Old Testament.

352
00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:07,600
So, One of the arguments I've
heard against plural marriage.

353
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,700
Especially, from an Evangelical
point of view is that.

354
00:21:10,900 --> 00:21:14,300
Well, every time it happens in
the Bible, it turns out to be

355
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,300
not something that you would
want, right?

356
00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:21,700
They point to Abraham and the
problems that he had with Hagar

357
00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:27,400
and and whatnot or Solomon
marrying, wives outside of

358
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,200
Israel, what would be your
rebuttal to that?

359
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,600
Man, if you look at these
stories in the Bible, about men,

360
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,200
having more than one child, you
know, there's some pretty, you

361
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,500
know, good compelling evidence
that having more than one child

362
00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:46,600
is a good idea, because if you
look at Cain and Abel, you know,

363
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:51,800
he's murdering his brother.
If you look at Esau and Esau and

364
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,700
Jacob, there's this severe
jealousy to the point where Esau

365
00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:59,400
is considering killing Jacob.
So clearly the Bible is trying

366
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,500
to include these terrible
situations to tell us.

367
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,800
At having lots of, you know that
having more than one child is a

368
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,200
very bad idea.
This kind of nut, that's how I

369
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,000
would personally respond to it
because the reality is life is

370
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,800
messy, history is messy.
And I'm glad that God includes

371
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,700
all of the messy stories in
Genesis to let us know that you

372
00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:25,300
know, people can be called of
God even though they're in

373
00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:30,200
imperfect circumstances in
imperfect families is kind of my

374
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,600
way of looking at that
personally.

375
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:36,400
What about You have any other
well, I think.

376
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:41,000
This has been my take on it for
a while.

377
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,700
You know how the news doesn't
ever really give you, you know,

378
00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:50,700
the the day-to-day of the
mundane, right?

379
00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:55,800
Here's my thing.
We know that that Jacob had I

380
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,300
think three or four wives and
the Old Testament and we don't

381
00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:03,000
hear about any real issues
there.

382
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,600
Right.
We don't see too much struggle.

383
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,600
In terms of, you know, his home
life, if I remember correctly.

384
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,600
And so I tend to, I tend to
think that the Lord uses those

385
00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:24,100
those circumstances, like with
Hagar and Abraham, and Solomon

386
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:29,200
is kind of cautionary.
Tales, write it, this is what

387
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:34,100
happens if, if you know, a man's
heart isn't in the right place

388
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:37,300
or a woman's heart, isn't in the
right place, it leads to

389
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:42,300
disaster.
And so, rather than Focus just

390
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:49,500
on the, on the The negative of
the situation.

391
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:53,200
You have to look at the breadth
of scripture and really

392
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:59,200
understand that more than likely
there were a lot of men who are

393
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,700
practicing plural marriage that
we never heard about, right?

394
00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:09,200
The other thing I would say is a
lot of times people will use the

395
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:15,400
absence of evidence as a way of
justifying a position, right?

396
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,500
They do it with Christ a lot.
They'll say well, why?

397
00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:19,600
In Christ's command it and then
you test him.

398
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,800
Well, just because he didn't
speak about it.

399
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,400
Directly doesn't mean that it's
outside.

400
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,300
The pail of Orthodoxy, it just
means we don't have record of it

401
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:36,000
until the restoration, Yeah.
So, so you mentioned the story

402
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,800
of Jacob and his wives, what's
interesting is that's one of the

403
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:43,700
places in Genesis, in Leia said,
in Genesis, 30 Verse 18.

404
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,300
God gave me my higher because I
have given my maiden to my

405
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:50,700
husband.
I ate as a plural, wife, and so,

406
00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:55,200
Orsa, Pratt made this compelling
comment on this verse, whoever

407
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,200
heard of the Lord, hearing ones
prayer, because a person was

408
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,200
doing an evil, if polygamy were
a crime, God, Condemned her,

409
00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:05,900
because she gave up her, husband
her handmaid to her husband, we

410
00:25:05,900 --> 00:25:08,800
can suppose that any woman not
acquainted with the long

411
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,500
commandant of the most high and
believing it to be simple for

412
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:15,300
husband to have two wives, would
Express herself in such a

413
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:17,400
matter.
The Lord heard my prayer and

414
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,000
gave me the fifth son because I
gave my handmaiden to my husband

415
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,600
as a wife.
This shows to us that Jacobs

416
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,300
wife Leia did really consider it
something pleasing in the sight

417
00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:31,800
of God.
And so there's many other Places

418
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,300
in the verse in the New
Testament, like a lot of.

419
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:42,100
A lot of people try.
I say that DNC 132 and and Jacob

420
00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:46,200
chapter to contradict and talk
talking about David and Solomon.

421
00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:50,500
And I think that's very
superficial reading of that.

422
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:57,400
And in reality when you look at
First Kings 15-5 it and both

423
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,900
also the Joseph Smith
translation of it, it's is very

424
00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:03,400
expensive.
That David did not commit any

425
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:08,000
major transgression in his life,
except for what he did in the

426
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,900
matter of Uriah.
So, this is almost, you know,

427
00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:15,900
DNC 132 I think, almost says
this almost identically.

428
00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:18,000
It's not quite the same, but
it's pretty similar.

429
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,000
He said, because David did that,
which was right in the eyes of

430
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,200
the Lord and turned not aside
from anything that he commanded

431
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,500
him.
All the days of his life, save

432
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:29,000
only in the matter of Uriah the
hittite.

433
00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:33,500
And if you go back just a second
Samuel, he talks about the lord

434
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:36,500
gave you your gave you the
kingdom.

435
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:39,200
He gave you your Masters wives
into your bosom.

436
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,200
And he said, if that's what I've
been too much, I would have

437
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,100
given you even more in the King
James that's kind of obscured,

438
00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:48,800
it just as I would have given
you such and such things, but in

439
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,000
the Hebrew, that's idiom.
Meaning, I would have given you

440
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,700
much more and so other
translations get that idiom

441
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:58,000
better.
And so, you know, but people say

442
00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,600
well, where is it?
Commanded anywhere in the

443
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:04,300
scriptures and I Say, if you
look at, so the Old Testament,

444
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:07,600
obviously isn't going to contain
the full details of God's

445
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,600
dealings with the Patriarchs
under in there.

446
00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:13,200
You know what they were told?
And, or not, you know, told to

447
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,400
do and what they did under, the
milk has increased because this

448
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,600
is a record that has been passed
down through.

449
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,100
Numerous generation, centuries
of apostate, Israel, and it was

450
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:29,300
even a bridge by Moses arguably
to not, you know, for the people

451
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:32,400
in there, apostate condition.
So, It wasn't going to contain

452
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:35,100
everything about the Melchizedek
priesthood there.

453
00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:36,200
In fact, that's what the Joseph
Smith.

454
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,700
Translation says, is that like
Everlasting Covenant and the

455
00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:44,600
holy order in its ordinances
were not going to be included in

456
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,200
the tablets that he was going to
write for the children of

457
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,000
Israel.
And so with well you know you

458
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,900
have to take it like you said,
where it's not going to give you

459
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,300
the full details and fortunately
we have a prophet with the

460
00:27:58,308 --> 00:28:00,900
Melchizedek priesthood who
restored.

461
00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:04,700
All the knowledge of the Holy
order and its ordinances to us,

462
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:08,700
you know, and gave us the law of
the new and Everlasting Covenant

463
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:14,600
of marriage in DNC 132 so yeah,
no.

464
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,700
I think you're spot on the other
thing.

465
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:23,400
I think that we fail to read and
I say we I mean, me included, is

466
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,500
that?
We look at the scriptures and we

467
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:31,300
read them with our 21st century
eyes and we do not take into To

468
00:28:31,300 --> 00:28:35,500
account custom culture or any of
those other things, right?

469
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,900
So what we may be looking for
now as something that might be

470
00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:46,000
extraordinary or something of
particular importance, may not

471
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:51,000
have been that that out of the
norm in ancient Israel, right?

472
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,600
Where, where, you know, they're
constantly breaking down.

473
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,300
Hey, and that dude had two wives
and that dude had three wives

474
00:28:58,300 --> 00:29:02,100
and and that dude was single and
that you just have Had one wife,

475
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:06,900
right?
Because it was the norm in that

476
00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:10,600
time period.
For plural marriage, right?

477
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,500
So, so we tend to look for those
things because again, we're in

478
00:29:14,500 --> 00:29:17,400
the 21st century, and we're
still dealing with Victorian

479
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,400
era, kind of principles, and we
tend to look for those things.

480
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,900
But to some of those ancient
Israelites, it was just part and

481
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:33,100
parcel of life Yep.
And so I can on that comment of,

482
00:29:33,100 --> 00:29:37,200
you know, the problem looking
back with 21st century eyes, I

483
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,900
and I totally understand people
who struggle with with, you

484
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:43,900
know, some of the things that
were, you know, said or taught

485
00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:48,100
in the early days of the
restoration or, you know, stuff

486
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:50,600
that's in the Bible.
I just think back to this

487
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,600
Brigham Young quote that I think
that every saint should, you

488
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:58,200
know, keep take to heart where
he said the Saints who live,

489
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,700
their religion will be exalted.
For they will never deny, any

490
00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:03,600
Revelation, which the Lord has
given.

491
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,700
Or may give though, when there
is a Doctrine coming to them,

492
00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:10,000
which they cannot comprehend
fully, they may be found saying

493
00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:13,200
the Lord sent it this unto me
and I pray that he will save and

494
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,900
preserve me from denying
anything which proceedeth from

495
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:17,800
him.
And give me the patience to wait

496
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,300
until I can understand it for
myself.

497
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,300
Such persons will never deny but
will allow those subjects to

498
00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:26,900
which they do not understand to
remain until the visions of

499
00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:29,600
their minds become open.
This is a course which I have

500
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,300
invariably Soon.
And if anything came to me, that

501
00:30:32,300 --> 00:30:35,200
I could not understand, I would
pray until I could comprehend

502
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:37,900
it, do not reject anything
because it is new or strange and

503
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:39,200
do not.
See, are Norge.

504
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,700
Eier.
What comes from the Lord?

505
00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:44,000
Or if we do, we endanger our
salvation.

506
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:47,900
And so the key part that I like
is, you know, give me the

507
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:51,600
patience to wait until I can
understand it for myself.

508
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,700
So that made a being patient
with the Lord and not being

509
00:30:55,700 --> 00:31:00,100
Hasty to, you know, the pass
judgment call on anything that

510
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,600
That, you know, is said to have
come from the Lord.

511
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:10,100
So with plural marriage, I think
DNC 132 if we jump into plural

512
00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:14,500
marriage as laid out in DNC, 132
it clearly lays out that it is a

513
00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:19,600
higher law of the gospel.
And it's not just so upon has

514
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,900
some apologists for the church.
Will try to say it was just a

515
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:26,800
temporary commandment, you know,
rather than being an eternal

516
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,000
law.
But I think it's very clear from

517
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,700
many statements from the early
Brethren that it was considered

518
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:38,000
to be Higher law.
For example, the statement by

519
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,500
Wilfred Woodruff said we have
many Bishops and Elders who have

520
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:45,400
but one wife their abundantly
qualified to enter the higher

521
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,400
law and take more, but their
wives will not let them any man

522
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,700
who will permit a woman to lead
him and bind him down is, but

523
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:55,500
of, but little account in the
Church and Kingdom of God, the

524
00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:57,900
law of patriarchal marriage and
plurality of wives is a

525
00:31:57,908 --> 00:32:03,100
revelation commandment of God.
To us and we should obey it but

526
00:32:03,100 --> 00:32:06,500
says one if you do judge McKean
will be after you.

527
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:11,200
So this is an 1875 and they were
facing the threat of being

528
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,400
thrown into prison for it.
We're just barely starting to

529
00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:18,300
and he says, what God has get
what has given us a future in

530
00:32:18,300 --> 00:32:21,000
these mountains and The Valleys
of these mountains is because we

531
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,000
have obeyed this part of the
celestial law of God.

532
00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:27,100
And on the comment about Judge,
McKean will be after you

533
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,600
Franklin d-- Richards, recall
that Brigham Young said that a

534
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:34,000
Man who wouldn't be willing to
go to prison for a good wife,

535
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,700
isn't deserving of a wife, if he
isn't willing to be willing to

536
00:32:37,700 --> 00:32:40,600
go to Creek, you know, to serve
serve some time for that

537
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,100
marriage.
So and another quote, this is

538
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,400
another Wilford Woodruff quote
and there's a bunch of different

539
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:48,800
leaders but this is just a good
one.

540
00:32:49,300 --> 00:32:52,100
He said when a man according to
the Revelation, marries a wife

541
00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:55,200
under the holy order which God
has revealed and then marries

542
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,200
another the same way he enters
into the new and Everlasting

543
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,100
Covenant and so far He is God,
he has to obey the law.

544
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:07,600
So I think that's its it was
very clearly understood by the

545
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,900
early Brethren.
That this was an essential

546
00:33:10,900 --> 00:33:14,700
document that this was
essentially a higher law to

547
00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:17,800
fully live, the new and
Everlasting Covenant of marriage

548
00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:20,800
and the Reit.
You have a thought.

549
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,600
Yeah.
Can I just won't stop you right

550
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,900
there and I want to explore
something real quick because I

551
00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:28,500
think it's super important to
understand this if we look at

552
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:31,200
what the with what.
Our bread.

553
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,500
What what?
The Brethren are teaching early

554
00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:38,900
on in the LDS Church's history?
The new and Everlasting Covenant

555
00:33:38,900 --> 00:33:41,700
of marriage was about plural
marriage.

556
00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:45,700
This idea that none in a know it
that's just what we call ceiling

557
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,600
that isn't necessarily the case,
right?

558
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,700
And and I know that this may
seem harsh to some people and

559
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:58,400
and I apologize for that, but I
got to call a spade, a spade and

560
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,300
I got to tell truth as I
understand it from the history

561
00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:05,300
I've gleaned.
And if you listen to those early

562
00:34:05,300 --> 00:34:08,100
Brethren talk, especially in,
Utah, period.

563
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:10,900
When they're safely tucked away
in the mountains for a while.

564
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,699
It's clear that when you married
a wife in the temple, even your

565
00:34:15,699 --> 00:34:18,500
first wife and you entered into
quote, the new and out

566
00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:20,000
Everlasting, Covenant of
marriage.

567
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,900
You were also making a covenant
to say, I'm open to this meaning

568
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:28,400
plural marriage while you're
wrong on all the all the laws

569
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,800
rights and pertaining to the new
and Everlasting Covenant, that's

570
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,800
part of the promise in the
marriage ceremony.

571
00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:40,100
So Oh, absolutely.
And on your subject on that same

572
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:43,100
subject, you know, some Mormons
today think that the term

573
00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:46,000
Celestial marriage.
Justices synonymous for Eternal

574
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,199
Marriage.
But in reality, it wasn't until

575
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:53,600
the late 1880s that those two
terms started.

576
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,000
You know that Celestial marriage
started to be redefined in

577
00:34:57,100 --> 00:35:00,700
Earth, Brigham Young's day and
John Taylor always.

578
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,600
So Brigham Young John Taylor and
I think even Wilford Woodruff

579
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:06,900
always to find the celestial
marriage.

580
00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:10,500
As being floral Celestial,
plural marriage.

581
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,800
It was Anonymous for plural
marriage.

582
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,800
It wasn't just an eternal
marriage.

583
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,900
And so, like, in the petition
for amnesty by the first

584
00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:24,100
presidency in 1891, basically
trying to say can the federal

585
00:35:24,100 --> 00:35:26,800
government basically give
amnesty to all former

586
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,400
polygamists, you know, to not
face any threat of, you know, of

587
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:34,100
legal action against us.
If, you know, we don't take any

588
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:37,400
more wives.
It says, we formerly He taught

589
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,000
our people that polygamy or
Celestial marriage as commanded

590
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,900
by God.
Through Joseph Smith was right

591
00:35:42,900 --> 00:35:46,700
and it was necessary to a man's
highest exaltation in the life

592
00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:51,400
to come so polygamy or Celestial
marriage so that you know, uses

593
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,900
those terms interchangeably.
So part of the reason I would

594
00:35:55,900 --> 00:36:01,300
say that this is considered to
live, the fullness of the lock

595
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,700
is part of what understanding
what exaltation is according to

596
00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:06,900
what Joseph Smith taught about
exaltation?

597
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,200
Ation.
What would you say?

598
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:14,000
Joseph Smith said exaltation was
just off the top of your head.

599
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,200
Just off the top of my head.
I know you're going to throw me

600
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,700
a curve ball here.
But I would say it was to be as

601
00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:24,600
God is to be able to have
eternal increase to be able to

602
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,500
to inherit all the rights and
powers and principles upon which

603
00:36:29,500 --> 00:36:34,800
God operates.
The BS God is is a very good

604
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,900
answer.
That's actually exactly what

605
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:40,500
this quote says, but slightly
different in your expanding on

606
00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:43,000
it.
He says, to know, God, we need

607
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,600
to learn how to become God's.
God is exalted by the addition

608
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,500
of subjects to his family or
Kingdom.

609
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,000
So, exaltation is about having a
family.

610
00:36:53,300 --> 00:36:57,400
It's about creating an eternal
Family Kingdom and so been Jeff

611
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,000
Johnson recalled.
Joseph taught, the first

612
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,800
commandment was too much.
Multiply and the prophet taught

613
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,900
us that our dominion and Power
in the great future would be

614
00:37:05,900 --> 00:37:09,200
commiserated with the numbers of
wives children and friends that

615
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,100
we inherit here and our mission
to this Earth was to organize a

616
00:37:13,100 --> 00:37:17,000
nucleus of Heaven to take with
us, the increase of which there

617
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,100
would be.
No.

618
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:22,700
And so, that's, that's a quote I
absolutely love that, you know.

619
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:25,700
It's, you know, the fullness of
the Gospel is not just about

620
00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:28,700
yourself, but an exaltation is
about yourself.

621
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,700
It's a family affair.
Is is what it was taught by

622
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:38,000
Joseph Smith.
So we established that polygamy

623
00:37:38,300 --> 00:37:42,000
is necessary for, you know, that
it is the higher law, right?

624
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,600
We're I think we've totally
established that to the little

625
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,900
fullness of the new and
Everlasting Covenant of

626
00:37:47,908 --> 00:37:51,100
marriage.
But this, every person in this

627
00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:54,600
life have to live plural
marriage or to go to the

628
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,000
Celestial Kingdom and to receive
in order to go to the Celestial

629
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,400
Kingdom or to be married in the
Celestial Kingdom.

630
00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:06,600
I would say that that common
Miss unmiss conception among

631
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,100
many fundamentalist.
Is they think that if you don't

632
00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:13,800
live plural marriage in this
life, you are not going to go to

633
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,500
the social Kingdom or not be
exalted in the Celestial Kingdom

634
00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:18,600
but I don't think that's
necessary.

635
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,600
I don't think that's an accurate
understanding of what the early

636
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,500
Brethren top.
So Brigham Young said that, you

637
00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:27,500
know, everyone who is faithful
to all the principles are

638
00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:31,100
revealed, even if they aren't
married, even if they aren't

639
00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:33,300
purely married.
They will be able to inherit

640
00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:37,800
Celestial Glory, but the amount
of Glory you inherit, is based

641
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,800
on your obedience to the
Commandments and the, and the

642
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,100
family kingdom, which you have
sealed to you here on Earth.

643
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:49,700
So number of quotes on this.
I, this is something that I

644
00:38:49,707 --> 00:38:52,400
actually compiled a quite a
number of quotes.

645
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:54,800
Oh Graham, young said men and
women will be saved the

646
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,700
Celestial Kingdom, without even
being married at all others,

647
00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:00,900
with only one wife, some again,
with many wives, whoever

648
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:03,100
continues faithful.
The end, we'll have all the

649
00:39:03,100 --> 00:39:04,900
exaltation they can possibly
enjoy.

650
00:39:04,900 --> 00:39:07,800
Let every person.
So live us to enjoy the Holy

651
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,300
Ghost and please God our Father.
The Revelation DNC 132 though,

652
00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:15,700
the greatest ever given demand
more than that will yet be given

653
00:39:15,700 --> 00:39:19,200
when we are ready to receive it.
And so a lot of people point to

654
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,700
the quote will, then Brigham
Young say that the only men who

655
00:39:22,700 --> 00:39:25,500
will become God's, even the sons
of God are those who enter into

656
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:28,000
polygamy to that?
I would say you need to read

657
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,600
that quote in the entire
context.

658
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,100
In order to become a god, you
will We'll eventually have to

659
00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:36,500
enter into polygamy, but he's
talking in the context she's

660
00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:39,400
saying and you have to accept
the principle of plural

661
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,000
marriage.
In order to go to the Celestial

662
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,500
Kingdom, he says, I wish to say
to you and to all the world that

663
00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:47,100
if you desire with all your
hearts to obtain the blessings,

664
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:50,700
which Abraham obtained, you will
be polygamous, at least in your

665
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:54,200
faith, where you will come short
of enjoying the Salvation and

666
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,500
Glory which Abraham has
obtained.

667
00:39:56,700 --> 00:40:00,800
And so for me, you know, I'm
just supporting this in my face,

668
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,900
you know.
I'm not Living that principle.

669
00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:05,500
I don't know if the Lord will
call me deliver that principle

670
00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:07,600
in this life or not.
For me that, you know, that,

671
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,900
that's what that that's up to
him.

672
00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:12,900
What he decides to call me to do
or not.

673
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,500
But what's important is that we
accept all the revelations and

674
00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,600
all the principles that God has
revealed.

675
00:40:21,100 --> 00:40:25,600
And so Brigham Young said, can a
man obtain an exaltation without

676
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,400
a wife or to do?
He said, you can't put a gallon

677
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,800
measure in a pipe measure, but
both can be film full.

678
00:40:32,100 --> 00:40:35,200
If a man is faithful with one
wife, he may grow to become a

679
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:40,200
gallon measure and there's a
bunch of other quotes on this.

680
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,600
Brigham Young said, can a man
obtained as complete a Salvation

681
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,400
with one wife as with 10?
No, he said, quote a man can

682
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,100
obtain as complete salvation
with one wife as with 10, but

683
00:40:51,100 --> 00:40:56,200
will it be as great or neural?
Numerous know, and another one

684
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,800
just to kind of hammer the since
show that I'm not cherry picking

685
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:01,800
but I've actually, you know, got
few sources.

686
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:05,100
This isn't the autobiography of
John Hawley.

687
00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:09,800
He said the year 1830 60 1868.
I had some business in Salt Lake

688
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,200
and while they're there was a
question as Brigham Young in a

689
00:41:12,207 --> 00:41:15,000
school, the prophets, whether a
man could obtain a Celestial

690
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,000
Glory with but one wife, he
answered he could but not to the

691
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,000
fullest extent of Glory.
The question please me although

692
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,000
I wish to progress in that glory
to the fullest extent of light

693
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,600
and intelligence.
This question, answer, ease my

694
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:31,200
mind somewhat on the subject of
multiplying wives as I had

695
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:32,600
previously.
I stood Brigham Young's

696
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,300
teachings before that that no
man can obtain Celestial Glory

697
00:41:35,300 --> 00:41:38,700
unless he had come to the law of
multiplication.

698
00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:44,000
And so, you know, similarly,
lime and white actually taught

699
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,900
his followers.
The the same thing where John

700
00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:53,800
Hawley told testified in the
temple lock case, he said in

701
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,500
those that were sealed and
spiritual marriage were said to

702
00:41:56,500 --> 00:41:59,200
be in polygamy, as well as those
that were not the understanding

703
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,500
was that they would enjoy the
same Glory as Others.

704
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:05,800
But the ones that had more than
one wife would enjoy a greater

705
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,000
portion of it.
And then so that was his

706
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,300
testimony about what you was
taught by lime and white and

707
00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:14,000
Texas.
And so, in my opinion, that

708
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,200
bring them young, as teaching,
one thing, and Utah, and Lyman

709
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,800
White's teaching, the exact same
thing in Texas, and lime, and

710
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,400
white never followed.
Brigham Young.

711
00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:25,400
That is in my opinion.
Pretty slam dunk evidence that

712
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,300
came from Joseph Smith, that
they both receive the doctor in

713
00:42:28,300 --> 00:42:31,000
plural, marriage and the
doctrine that it was for a

714
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,900
higher.
Degree of exaltation in a

715
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:36,700
fullness of exaltation, rather
than, you know, being a

716
00:42:36,700 --> 00:42:39,500
requirement to enter into the
Celestial Kingdom.

717
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:41,900
If that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense.

718
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,100
I'm going to kind of put this in
layman's terms real quick to

719
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:48,200
make sure that that me and the
listeners, you're all

720
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:53,800
understanding here because we do
hear that, you know, you have to

721
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,400
enter into it in this life or
else you're kind of screwed,

722
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,200
right?
For lack of a better term.

723
00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:04,600
My argument to that just as use
have, It out is, you have to be

724
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,800
willing to enter into it, right?
You have to have that servant's

725
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,600
heart, you have to make your
will the will of the father,

726
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:15,100
right?
And that doesn't mean that

727
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:17,600
you're going to live it here.
That just means that you're open

728
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,500
to it.
You're open to everything that

729
00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:24,600
the Lord speaks to bless you
with and despite our best

730
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,100
efforts.
And this is the thing I love

731
00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:31,400
about Mormonism is that we tend
to be very pragmatic as we

732
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,000
approach our Our Doctrine,
right?

733
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,500
We still despite that
pragmatism.

734
00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:40,900
We still have to rely on the
Lord.

735
00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:43,200
We still have to have faith and
understand that.

736
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:47,300
Even if things don't pan out
like we want to hear they can

737
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:51,000
pan out the way we're promised
on the other side.

738
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:52,900
Is that a fair assessment of
what you were trying to stay

739
00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:54,600
right there?
Yeah, absolutely.

740
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,500
So it's not necessary.
So it is the higher law.

741
00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:03,700
It is fullness of the law and it
is It's necessary to be a God.

742
00:44:03,700 --> 00:44:07,600
But, you know, you, if you are
not permitted by circumstance

743
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,700
that, you know, the Lord will
not, you know, he will not

744
00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:15,000
punish anyone that just because
of circumstance were not able to

745
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,300
live all this Commandments just
like we were talking about the

746
00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:20,200
early Nephites, there's nothing
in my opinion that would say

747
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:25,500
that Nephi isn't going to be
exalted or, you know, Jacob or

748
00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:29,200
you know any other early
Nephites who happened to only be

749
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,400
committed to live monogamy.
So I want to go back to what you

750
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,400
were saying about Wyman white
teachings.

751
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,300
One thing in Texas and Brigham
Young teaching.

752
00:44:39,300 --> 00:44:42,000
The same thing in Utah and
they're not affiliated.

753
00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:47,000
Okay, if you read Brigham's
account of when he first learns

754
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,100
of plural, marriage, the dude
ain't a fan, right?

755
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:54,200
He says he steps out after
learning about it, and he sees a

756
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:58,600
funeral procession and he says,
he actually envies the, the

757
00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:03,500
corpse inside the coffin, right?
He was, he was struggling with

758
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:05,900
this just like everyone else was
up front.

759
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,100
Yeah, he saw the trials that
they would have to endure for

760
00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:15,300
this principal like this if -
lustful there are so many easier

761
00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:18,600
ways for a man to satisfy his
lust than to live plural

762
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,800
marriage.
Pearl marriage is just as much.

763
00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:25,300
You know, it's definitely a
blessing for those who can

764
00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:28,500
successfully live it right.
But it's just you would know

765
00:45:28,500 --> 00:45:31,400
this better than me that it's
just as much responsibility.

766
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,800
It's more, you know, it's a
family times 2, right?

767
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:41,100
And so what I would say is this
is that one if you're living it

768
00:45:41,100 --> 00:45:47,300
correctly, There, there are no
illicit stories to tell, right?

769
00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:53,100
I had, I had a good friend when
I was, when I was right after.

770
00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:58,600
I mean, my first plural wife got
together and he's like, tell me

771
00:45:58,600 --> 00:45:59,800
some stories.
What's that?

772
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,600
Like and I was like, come here,
I'll tell you.

773
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:08,900
It's just like being married.
Once only a second time and I

774
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:10,500
just left.
Is that right?

775
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:13,800
I mean, there's, there's yeah,
yeah, no, absolutely there.

776
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,000
There's, there's more
responsibility.

777
00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:22,100
You now have to protect the
heart of two women, right?

778
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:28,000
And I've always said, if I
never, yeah, it's just, it's

779
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,200
just more responsibility and you
got to be willing to embrace

780
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,500
that, and then find the joy in
that as well.

781
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:39,700
So, and so, like I said, when
I'm explain this, I am not

782
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:44,100
saying that it isn't a Doctrine
for exaltation because as John

783
00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:47,600
Taylor it was made abundantly.
Clear in the revelations, he

784
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:51,700
received the 88 to Revelation
the 1886 Revelation.

785
00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:55,500
So right after receiving the
8th, you Revelation, what did

786
00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:58,300
John Taylor say?
He said, if we do not keep the

787
00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:01,700
same law that our heavenly
father, has we cannot go with

788
00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:03,500
him.
The word of the Lord to us, was

789
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:05,200
that?
That we did not obey the law.

790
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,100
We could not go where our
heavenly father, dwells a man

791
00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:10,800
obeying, a lower law is not
qualified.

792
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,600
Who preside over those who keep
a higher law and so, can you

793
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,200
imagine?
I don't, it doesn't logically

794
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,600
make sense that a man who is not
live.

795
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,600
Plural, marriage will preside
over men.

796
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,000
Living plural.
Marriage is a god unless you

797
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,300
know you're going to have to
enlarge in your heart and accept

798
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:30,400
that, that is something that
will eventually be required to.

799
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,500
This is DNC 132 lays out in your
eternal.

800
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,700
A progression if not here then
in the next life.

801
00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:43,500
So absolutely.
So to kind of get into what do I

802
00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:46,100
segue into polygamy.
Now we're talking about Lyman

803
00:47:46,100 --> 00:47:48,900
white and that's almost a great
place you know start?

804
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:51,200
Yeah.
Let's simply let's let's get

805
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,900
right into that.
So there's just so many sources

806
00:47:55,900 --> 00:47:59,400
that prove that Joseph Smith was
the fountain founder of Latter

807
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,300
Day.
Saint polygamy, lime and white

808
00:48:01,300 --> 00:48:04,000
had absolutely nothing to do
with Brigham Young.

809
00:48:04,100 --> 00:48:08,500
After August, 1840.
For Lyman white, he was there

810
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:12,300
for the August 8th 1844
conference.

811
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:14,000
He was use their number at the
time.

812
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,800
He immediately packed his wagons
and you know, he was heading off

813
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,600
to Texas almost immediately that
same month.

814
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:25,500
He first has to go regroup with
his his Colony up in Wisconsin

815
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,000
and then they go to Texas.
He does not stick around long

816
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,000
enough for Brigham Young to have
any influence on him yet.

817
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,900
He taught plural marriage.
He practiced plural marriage,

818
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,600
you know among his colony in
Texas.

819
00:48:39,300 --> 00:48:43,300
And you know there's just so
many other sources when it comes

820
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:45,700
to the evidence of Joseph
Smith's polygamy.

821
00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:50,000
So just to start off with a
quote that I think is important

822
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:55,300
and looking at evidence as a
historian, the hisses from D,

823
00:48:55,300 --> 00:48:59,900
Michael Quinn in early Mormonism
in the magical world view page.

824
00:48:59,900 --> 00:49:04,400
322 the historians role is to
avoid isolating pieces of

825
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,900
evidence as if they exist in a
vacuum when when tainted by

826
00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:12,300
polemics, and Genetics historian
seek to understand how each fact

827
00:49:12,300 --> 00:49:15,000
that is possibly relevant.
May be connected in the past,

828
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,800
with other evidence has no
matter how fragmentary, we never

829
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,300
understand the past.
We will never understand the

830
00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:23,600
past has a seamless whole yet.
We should be willing to

831
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,000
acknowledge even unfamiliar
patterns that diverse evidences

832
00:49:27,300 --> 00:49:30,800
outline.
So the big difference between a

833
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,800
historian who believe, who
argues that Joseph Smith

834
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,700
Crock-Pot, and practice
polygamy, and those who argue

835
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:42,000
against it is the historian.
Argues for jealousness practice

836
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,100
of polygamy, does he's taking a
holistic view of the evidence?

837
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:50,200
He's taking the totality the big
picture of all the different

838
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,600
evidence from all the different
sources and putting it together

839
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,900
to create a picture.
While a person who is a polygamy

840
00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:02,100
skeptic or a polygamy denier
will try to say, we'll try use a

841
00:50:02,100 --> 00:50:04,900
breadcrumb trail of evidence.
I'm going to point you to this

842
00:50:04,900 --> 00:50:08,000
specific thing and I'm going to
point you to this thing and he's

843
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,800
trying to lead you along to his
conclusion and he's going to

844
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,600
leave out all of the evidence
that does not support his

845
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:22,400
conclusion and honest historian
is going to take the totality of

846
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,200
the evidence and he needs to
account for the totality of the

847
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:31,500
evidence and granted that means
history is a lot of work.

848
00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:36,100
I have just I've been studying
the history of Josephus

849
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:39,000
pro-marriage.
All the evidence for it or four

850
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,000
or Years.
Now since I stood since it first

851
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,200
popped on my radar is a major
issue that that was starting to

852
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,700
be debated.
I wanted to know the evidence

853
00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:52,700
and I feel like even I've only
scratched the surface of all the

854
00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:58,100
evidence and understanding all
the evidence but I do I have put

855
00:50:58,100 --> 00:51:02,500
together quite a bit on this and
I even public wrote a paper in

856
00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:07,200
2022.
Actually yeah either 2020 2021

857
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,300
to kind of address it because It
was becoming such a hot-button

858
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:15,400
subject.
So, history takes a lot of work

859
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:18,600
and it really reminds me of a
quote by Murray rothbard.

860
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,100
I don't know if you're familiar
with whom we're not part of his

861
00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:27,400
but you is Economist brilliant
economists of in the in the

862
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,600
libertarian school of thought he
was considered almost the father

863
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,900
of Liberty, the libertarian
movement in America.

864
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,900
And he was very big on economics
and other saying economic

865
00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:39,100
theory, he said, is no crime to
be.

866
00:51:39,500 --> 00:51:42,400
Economics, which is after all A
specialized discipline and one

867
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,600
that most people consider to be
a dismal science.

868
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,100
But it is totally irresponsible
to have a loud and voracious

869
00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:51,600
opinion, economic subjects while
remaining in a state of

870
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,500
ignorance.
I would take that quote and

871
00:51:53,508 --> 00:51:57,400
apply that to history saying.
It's a no crime to be ignorant

872
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,500
of History, which is after all A
specialized discipline.

873
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:04,300
And one that most people don't
spend too much time on but it is

874
00:52:04,300 --> 00:52:08,200
a responsible job and very loud
and voracious opinion on it when

875
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,100
you have it taken.
The time to study it out fully

876
00:52:11,100 --> 00:52:15,800
so, to be a good historian.
And Stuntin in studying Mormon

877
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,400
history, you really need to be
balanced in several different

878
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:20,600
areas.
You need to familiarize yourself

879
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:25,000
with what's been written on the
subject or the what books and

880
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,200
articles are on that subject,
you need to have some

881
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:29,900
experience.
Looking at some of the source

882
00:52:29,900 --> 00:52:32,900
material, like going back and
digging into the sources for

883
00:52:32,900 --> 00:52:35,100
yourself.
Rather than pressing someone

884
00:52:35,100 --> 00:52:38,300
else's interpretation of the
sources you need to, also be

885
00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:42,700
interacting Other people who are
students or scholars in that

886
00:52:42,700 --> 00:52:46,900
field and getting kind of their
feedback on different ideas and

887
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:50,700
different understandings.
You know, to be interacting with

888
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:55,600
peers in that subject.
And, you know, and 40 just

889
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,700
really need to be studying quite
a bit when you know, it's not

890
00:52:58,700 --> 00:53:00,800
just a little bit.
You need to be studying quite a

891
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,900
bit.
If you wanted to really be a

892
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:07,500
historian in a field and so
what's interesting is I actually

893
00:53:08,100 --> 00:53:11,400
like I came up with this List.
And then I saw some polygamy

894
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,400
Skeptics.
Use the same list as like you're

895
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,600
throwing out the list you but
you're only agreeing with it and

896
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,800
word, not insincerity.
Like these people will pretend

897
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,000
they want to you know, they're
just searching for the truth.

898
00:53:25,100 --> 00:53:28,200
They'll pretend that they're
taking the totality of sources

899
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:31,700
and that they're interacting
with with other Scholars but

900
00:53:31,900 --> 00:53:36,100
really in my experience, they
generally do not want to do that

901
00:53:36,100 --> 00:53:38,300
and they want to kind of create
a little bubble.

902
00:53:39,100 --> 00:53:41,900
Of their historical perspective.
If that makes sense.

903
00:53:42,100 --> 00:53:44,900
It does, you know I'm going to
ask you here.

904
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:47,400
Can you give me an example of
that?

905
00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:54,200
Um, for example, the hemlock
knots project, in my opinion, is

906
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,400
the very much a breadcrumb trail
on many different issues.

907
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,400
If you might think that he's
just trying to give an unbiased

908
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:06,200
take, but it's a very much, a
breadcrumb trail of different

909
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:11,000
things to lead you to their
conclusion and Denver Snuffer's

910
00:54:11,100 --> 00:54:14,200
things against plural, marriage,
one of his talks.

911
00:54:14,300 --> 00:54:16,500
He just wanted to speak on two
sources.

912
00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:21,200
You want to speak on the Nancy.
Rigdon letter in 1842, the

913
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,700
happiness letter and you want to
speak on a letter from Joseph

914
00:54:24,700 --> 00:54:27,600
Smith to Relief Society and he
gives an hour long talk.

915
00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:32,900
Just on these two sources and
uses these two sources alone to

916
00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:36,200
argue against, you know, plural,
marriage being, you know,

917
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,500
historically verifiable.
He's like if I can just Tear

918
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:43,900
Down The credibility of two
different documents then, you

919
00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:48,200
know, you know, that's that's he
thinks he's won his case.

920
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,700
But that isn't how you do
history, you need to be taking

921
00:54:51,700 --> 00:54:56,000
into account all the documents,
all of the testimony and for me

922
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,400
it's not just you know, some
people There's a lot of later

923
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,500
testimony, and you should just
stick with the Contemporary

924
00:55:02,500 --> 00:55:04,400
stuff.
What comes in Joseph, Smith's

925
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,000
lifetime, in my opinion, plural,
marriage.

926
00:55:07,100 --> 00:55:08,900
So this it might just my
opinion.

927
00:55:09,100 --> 00:55:11,500
This is a fact, everyone admits
that when plural marriage is

928
00:55:11,500 --> 00:55:15,100
introduced in Nabu, it's
introduced in secret, right?

929
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,700
Hmm, is not something introduced
publicly.

930
00:55:18,900 --> 00:55:23,200
The reality is that if something
is introduced in secret, what

931
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,200
contemporary evidence should you
expect there to be?

932
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,100
Because you really expect,
they're going to be a man.

933
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,500
Mountain of contemporary
evidence, if something is

934
00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:34,700
introduced secret and they're
concerned about people, possibly

935
00:55:34,700 --> 00:55:39,900
exposing it and getting people
in persecution or legal trouble

936
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:41,500
over it.
Of course not, they're going to

937
00:55:41,508 --> 00:55:45,700
be very guarded about that and
that's why there is a limitation

938
00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:50,200
on the Contemporary sources, but
the reality is there is still

939
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:51,700
pull.
Marriage was introduced to

940
00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:55,500
enough people and Nabu that it's
very clear.

941
00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:58,100
That it was something that was
taught and practiced.

942
00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:04,300
And so for me, when it comes to
interacting with skull is, so

943
00:56:04,300 --> 00:56:07,800
with with peers in this stuff I
want to steal man.

944
00:56:08,100 --> 00:56:11,500
I want to hear the most the
strongest arguments against my

945
00:56:11,500 --> 00:56:15,100
historical position.
Like I'm not going to pick a

946
00:56:15,100 --> 00:56:17,700
weak argument, just to repair it
down.

947
00:56:17,700 --> 00:56:20,800
I want to hear the strongest
arguments that my opponents can

948
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:25,700
make and respond to them.
And I think that say when I see

949
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:31,500
the work of people like, Justin
Griffin, Or Michelle Stones, 132

950
00:56:31,500 --> 00:56:35,000
problems podcast.
They really do try to almost

951
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:39,400
Straw Men, their opponents
rather than steel, man and

952
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,300
provide to, you know, engage the
strongest possible arguments.

953
00:56:43,500 --> 00:56:46,800
I actually noticed.
So Taylor Smith the two debates

954
00:56:47,100 --> 00:56:51,500
with Justin Griffin, Justin
Griffin, initially uploaded

955
00:56:51,500 --> 00:56:55,300
those on his YouTube channel.
He didn't just unlist those

956
00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:59,800
debates sometime in the last
year, he set them to private.

957
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:03,000
He does not want people, you
know he's not very happy about

958
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:07,000
how those debates went down with
somebody who studied it out and

959
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:11,300
had strong evidence to argue
against his Carthage conspiracy

960
00:57:11,300 --> 00:57:16,100
2.0 basically.
And so that to me and he and his

961
00:57:16,100 --> 00:57:18,400
latest movie will have to
probably do a whole other

962
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,900
episode just to talk about
doctrine of Christ and who

963
00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:26,700
killed Joe Smith, part 2.
But his latest movie, he talks

964
00:57:26,700 --> 00:57:30,500
to a detective and I'm like, oh,
he's talking to a professional

965
00:57:30,500 --> 00:57:34,300
friends, exit, active, I want to
see him and hash out the hardest

966
00:57:34,300 --> 00:57:38,200
arguments against his against
his theory with this detective.

967
00:57:38,900 --> 00:57:43,400
No, he, there's no interaction
of him are showing the strong

968
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,500
arguments against his theory
with this detective.

969
00:57:45,500 --> 00:57:48,200
He's rather trying to sell his
theory to is detective.

970
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,800
He's like, why don't you look,
he's trying to prove his theory

971
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,700
rather than have this too.
Detective challenging.

972
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,500
And so that to me is strong
evidence that he's not really,

973
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,600
you know, they often say I'm
just seeking truth, I'm just the

974
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:07,200
unbiased person I have I'm not
in the LDS church anymore so I

975
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:11,200
don't have any bias stopping me.
But the reality is, if you're

976
00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:13,600
seeking truth, you're going to
be looking at the

977
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,200
hardest-hitting arguments
against your position and

978
00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:20,300
addressing those hardest-hitting
arguments if that makes sense,

979
00:58:20,500 --> 00:58:23,000
it does.
I think this also speaks to

980
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,200
something that I I think is
super important and that is when

981
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:30,700
we do history, If we're honest
and how we do this and I have

982
00:58:30,700 --> 00:58:33,800
this exercise, not only with the
gospel but with the Founding

983
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:43,000
Fathers as well. if you start
with, A presupposition of what

984
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,200
you think is, right?
And then all you do is try to go

985
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:51,000
find facts to prove that you're
not really doing history, right?

986
00:58:51,100 --> 00:58:54,300
What you're doing is cherry
picking sources.

987
00:58:55,900 --> 00:59:00,100
That proved or what you think,
proves your point and ignoring

988
00:59:00,100 --> 00:59:03,400
everything else.
When you study history you have

989
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:06,900
to come at this unbiased just
wanting to know.

990
00:59:07,300 --> 00:59:12,100
Now history is messy because its
people and its people in a time

991
00:59:12,100 --> 00:59:15,500
where maybe the best documents
weren't weren't kept around, we

992
00:59:15,500 --> 00:59:18,300
didn't have Facebook that
logged, all that stuff for us

993
00:59:18,900 --> 00:59:22,900
over and over.
So there are certain inferences

994
00:59:22,900 --> 00:59:27,900
that have to be made but You
still have to approach it in

995
00:59:27,900 --> 00:59:30,800
kind of a scientific mindset
where you're like, okay, let's

996
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:34,200
just find the truth.
Whatever the truth is, the

997
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,000
truth.
Shouldn't have an agenda.

998
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:41,400
The truth should just be the
truth because it is absolutely.

999
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:45,100
And so, when it comes to
history, the big problem I see

1000
00:59:45,100 --> 00:59:48,400
is people think that if you can
get a few piece, you know, you

1001
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:51,500
can collect the number of facts
to support your narrative, that

1002
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:55,500
that is how you do history, but
I just know that.

1003
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,200
As I mentioned it you need to
take a comprehensive and

1004
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:05,600
holistic view of the sources it
so one analogy that I really

1005
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,600
liked when it comes to history's
history is like making a map you

1006
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,900
need to figure out what are the
important things to include in

1007
01:00:12,900 --> 01:00:17,200
your map but also what's just as
important is what you you know,

1008
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:21,100
what is not being emphasized in
your map and you know part of

1009
01:00:21,100 --> 01:00:24,200
the reason you have interaction
you need to have interaction

1010
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,100
with opposing views.
Use is so you can have some

1011
01:00:27,100 --> 01:00:31,300
pushback, you know.
So I'm not the biggest fan of

1012
01:00:31,300 --> 01:00:34,400
peer review because peer review
and practice in these.

1013
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,700
And a lot of academic
disciplines is almost, you know,

1014
01:00:38,700 --> 01:00:41,900
like it's being disconnected
from the original sources and

1015
01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:46,600
it's almost Truth by consensus.
And that's not what he review is

1016
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,000
intended.
That you need to be able to

1017
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,500
replicate it.
And other people need to be able

1018
01:00:50,500 --> 01:00:53,900
to check your work and see if
you're, you know, if you're

1019
01:00:54,100 --> 01:00:56,700
taking into account all the
Relevant facts.

1020
01:00:56,900 --> 01:01:00,100
And so, you know, no one can
actually even write a perfect

1021
01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:04,100
history because a perfect
history is impossible.

1022
01:01:04,100 --> 01:01:07,500
You can't document absolutely
every little detail about every

1023
01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:11,700
person's life, you know, it
would just be impossible to

1024
01:01:11,700 --> 01:01:14,600
write such a history.
And so, you always, you have to

1025
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,100
figure out what is relevant and
you need to address all the

1026
01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:22,500
relevant and important factors
to in creating that history.

1027
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,600
So in another question that
comes up is but a lot and this

1028
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,700
is Common from a right-wing
perspective.

1029
01:01:29,700 --> 01:01:32,700
Is, is it academic day?
Me a corrupt, you know, should

1030
01:01:32,700 --> 01:01:36,300
we really put our faith and
trust in Academia?

1031
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:40,500
And I would say, one thing that
I really like in an interview

1032
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,100
that was done by courtesy Arvin
on Tucker Carlson where he said.

1033
01:01:45,100 --> 01:01:48,400
A lot of things that are
probably over 90, you know, 99%

1034
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,100
of our heads.
But one thing that stood out to

1035
01:01:51,100 --> 01:01:52,800
me appointee made that was
really good.

1036
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:57,700
Is that the most Corrupts
Academia is places, that's in

1037
01:01:57,700 --> 01:02:00,700
connection to government power
or, and where you can.

1038
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:05,100
If you can emphasize your power
and your importance to get more

1039
01:02:05,100 --> 01:02:10,900
funding, there is a bad
incentive there to, you know,

1040
01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:16,900
to, to induce your to skew
reality to give yourself that

1041
01:02:16,900 --> 01:02:20,700
more power, more funding if you
can make yourself inversely

1042
01:02:20,700 --> 01:02:24,400
important.
So for example, with If climate

1043
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:29,100
change, whether you believe in
it or not, we aren't we're in

1044
01:02:29,100 --> 01:02:30,900
2023 now.
It's supposed to be.

1045
01:02:30,900 --> 01:02:33,700
Then the end of the world
decades for the last several

1046
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:35,700
decades.
We were told and we agreed to

1047
01:02:35,700 --> 01:02:39,400
Turning Point where there's
there's no returning and you

1048
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:43,400
know but that that's that that
fear mongering only makes sense

1049
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:48,300
in the attempt of them trying to
boost their own power, their get

1050
01:02:48,300 --> 01:02:50,400
more funding, their own
importance.

1051
01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:56,000
And so when you look at And so
when you look at fields and you

1052
01:02:56,008 --> 01:03:01,200
look at, is there a bad
incentive there for them to make

1053
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,600
that make, you know, to
exaggerate the importance of

1054
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,300
their work.
And so there isn't say awoke

1055
01:03:07,300 --> 01:03:11,200
math because you know,
mathematics is a place where

1056
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:15,000
it's in connection to government
power, you know, by having you

1057
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,400
know higher math.
So in Mormon history, the

1058
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:21,400
question is does the LDS church?
You know, have this

1059
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:25,200
institutional power And control
over The Narrative of LDS

1060
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:29,900
history that and I would say
that's definitely not true.

1061
01:03:30,100 --> 01:03:33,900
When you look at everything that
is published both by people in

1062
01:03:33,900 --> 01:03:36,400
the church as well as people out
of the church there.

1063
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,600
Have been times where the church
has attempted to use influence

1064
01:03:39,900 --> 01:03:44,200
to to shut up different
scholarly voices.

1065
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,000
But the most, they can do to
someone.

1066
01:03:46,100 --> 01:03:49,000
You know that there's not much
is if a scholar wants to write

1067
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:52,900
on a subject and piss it off the
church, they can do it and the

1068
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:57,300
Now the is, is that all this
history that's been come out in

1069
01:03:57,300 --> 01:04:02,100
the last hundred years of Mormon
history is, you know, the church

1070
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,400
is under the control of the
government, not the government

1071
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,800
is in control of the church.
And so, the church really as an

1072
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:12,200
institution doesn't have the
kind of power that, you know,

1073
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,800
some people might imagine it to
be it.

1074
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,700
And fortunately does have too
much influence over its members

1075
01:04:17,700 --> 01:04:22,000
to, you know, to the detriment
of members in my opinion.

1076
01:04:22,300 --> 01:04:26,400
But Doesn't really control the
academic narrative and there's a

1077
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:31,000
wide consensus from Scholars of
all different perspectives from

1078
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:35,600
LDS, historians to the
reorganized Church historians to

1079
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:41,100
non-believers to um you know to
former members to agnostic, you

1080
01:04:41,100 --> 01:04:45,200
know you know people who don't
have a leg in the fight either

1081
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,700
way you know there's a wide
consensus regarding Joseph,

1082
01:04:48,700 --> 01:04:52,200
Smith's polygamy and you know
you should take trust that

1083
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,800
consensus.
Just because it's there but that

1084
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,100
should make you cautious of
this.

1085
01:04:57,100 --> 01:05:00,100
Absolutely throwing out.
What has been written by

1086
01:05:00,100 --> 01:05:02,800
historians on the subject of
plural of Joseph Smith's

1087
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:04,400
pro-marriage if that makes
sense.

1088
01:05:04,700 --> 01:05:09,200
Yep it does.
So to get into some other

1089
01:05:09,500 --> 01:05:13,100
sources, some contemporary
sources of plural, marriage.

1090
01:05:14,300 --> 01:05:20,900
One Source that I think is
fascinating is a letter by the

1091
01:05:20,900 --> 01:05:22,000
lake.
Campbell Heber C.

1092
01:05:22,000 --> 01:05:26,700
Kimball is look wife to her
husband Heber C, Kimball in June

1093
01:05:26,700 --> 01:05:33,200
of 1843.
And this letter is really great

1094
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:37,300
for a number of reasons where
she mentions that Harley people.

1095
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,200
Patton and his wife.
Mary Ann Pratt, were taught,

1096
01:05:40,700 --> 01:05:44,300
plural were being taught plural
marriage by Joseph and she

1097
01:05:44,300 --> 01:05:47,100
originally writes Joseph.
But then she tries to erase

1098
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:49,700
Joseph.
Like, she wanted just put Jay,

1099
01:05:49,900 --> 01:05:51,700
Jay had even appointed one for
that.

1100
01:05:51,700 --> 01:05:54,800
You know, that you've been
appointed one and she's afraid

1101
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,500
they're going to run too fast
and before marriage because he

1102
01:05:57,500 --> 01:06:01,100
says he was interrupted before
he got the instruction needed

1103
01:06:01,100 --> 01:06:04,700
and they aren't be explicit
about saying plural marriage in

1104
01:06:04,700 --> 01:06:07,300
the letter.
But the context of it this is

1105
01:06:07,500 --> 01:06:11,500
Clearly, they receive private
instruction regarding plural

1106
01:06:11,500 --> 01:06:14,200
marriage.
And so then she near the end of

1107
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:19,100
the the letter, she mentions.
The case of Joseph, be Nobles

1108
01:06:19,100 --> 01:06:23,100
first, plural, wife, Sarah,
Allie and her pregnancy.

1109
01:06:23,500 --> 01:06:27,000
He said I have a secret to tell
you but I'm almost afraid it was

1110
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,100
committed to Sarah and she
requested not to tell me she was

1111
01:06:30,100 --> 01:06:33,300
requested, not to tell me but
she said she considered me a

1112
01:06:33,308 --> 01:06:36,000
part of herself and she would
tell me and I might tell you for

1113
01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:37,300
it was just as you had
prophesied.

1114
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:40,100
I said, would come to pass now
if you know what you said about

1115
01:06:40,100 --> 01:06:44,100
Surly, then you have got the
secret for it is even so and she

1116
01:06:44,100 --> 01:06:47,200
is tickled about it and they all
appear in better spirits than

1117
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,400
they did before.
How they will carry it out as

1118
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,000
more than I know.
But I hope they, but I hope they

1119
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,200
have got more faith than I have
brother Noble spokes, all send

1120
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,700
love to you so it's, you know,
very, you know, very cryptic,

1121
01:06:58,700 --> 01:07:00,600
the way she writes it, but it's
clear.

1122
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:04,300
There's something secretive and
it's clearly alluding to the

1123
01:07:04,300 --> 01:07:07,300
first plural marriage pregnancy
in Nauvoo.

1124
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:11,500
And so that's one source that I
would use to debunked.

1125
01:07:11,500 --> 01:07:15,700
The claim that, you know, that
there's no evidence of the

1126
01:07:15,700 --> 01:07:18,900
speeding consummated or plural
marriage.

1127
01:07:18,900 --> 01:07:22,100
In this life, in the lifetime of
Joseph Smith because this was

1128
01:07:22,100 --> 01:07:27,600
written June 29th, 1843 and it
was about contemporary events in

1129
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:30,600
Abu and was about it.
Mentions Joseph.

1130
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:34,600
And just been, you know, that he
had just been taken captive.

1131
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:37,300
They were trying to, people are
trying to extradite him to me.

1132
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:39,100
Zuri.
And so they were very concerned

1133
01:07:39,100 --> 01:07:41,900
about all of the different
things that we're going on at

1134
01:07:41,900 --> 01:07:46,000
that time and she's writing
details about plural marriage at

1135
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:51,300
that time.
So, another source that, you

1136
01:07:51,300 --> 01:07:55,500
know, that would be a very
compelling contemporary Source

1137
01:07:55,500 --> 01:08:00,500
in my opinion is you know
there's just dozens I actually

1138
01:08:00,500 --> 01:08:04,400
made a list and if you could
think you've got a list of all

1139
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,300
the sources and you find out,
there's more like I was recently

1140
01:08:07,700 --> 01:08:15,900
Aware of a letter by by Jedi and
grants to Joseph Smith in 1843

1141
01:08:16,300 --> 01:08:20,399
where he alludes to, there is a
plural, marriage proposal.

1142
01:08:20,899 --> 01:08:23,700
He's very cryptic, he's very
alluding to it, but that Joseph

1143
01:08:23,700 --> 01:08:27,100
and made a proposal and it
created quite a stir from those

1144
01:08:27,100 --> 01:08:32,500
who were aware of this letter.
And and he said that he was able

1145
01:08:32,500 --> 01:08:35,700
to get his hands on it and that
he he says, if you know that I'm

1146
01:08:35,700 --> 01:08:39,700
a faithful brother, I I put the
letter to the fire to avoid it

1147
01:08:39,700 --> 01:08:45,200
any more further controversy
regarding this and so, you know,

1148
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,300
he's very cryptic but he's
Redford seeing these things.

1149
01:08:48,500 --> 01:08:51,100
If you go and you look at the
William, Clay and Diaries.

1150
01:08:51,500 --> 01:08:54,600
William Clayton references that
this letter was he said he

1151
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:57,200
writes about I'm Joseph.
God led her from Jedi, am

1152
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:01,000
granite and Emma is furious.
There's several different

1153
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:04,899
instances where there's just
Illusions to plural marriage

1154
01:09:04,899 --> 01:09:08,899
activity and Clayton's journals
that you would No, it was you

1155
01:09:08,899 --> 01:09:11,899
know what he's talking about.
If you didn't have the other

1156
01:09:11,899 --> 01:09:15,399
sources unfortunately that
letter from Jenna and Grant has

1157
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:18,899
survived.
But with other sources like say

1158
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:23,300
so Joseph Smith letter to the
Whitney's in August of 1842,

1159
01:09:23,300 --> 01:09:26,700
just after Joseph take Sarah and
Whitney is a plural wife.

1160
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,300
The letter Joseph writes them
where he says he has very strong

1161
01:09:30,300 --> 01:09:34,200
feelings for them after what's
transpired recently and he says

1162
01:09:34,300 --> 01:09:37,800
he wants the witness all come
the three of them and And he's

1163
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:40,700
wants to steal the fullness of
his blessings upon their head,

1164
01:09:40,700 --> 01:09:43,000
so he's referencing some private
morning's work.

1165
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,700
You want to do but he says, but
don't come when Emma comes

1166
01:09:45,700 --> 01:09:48,700
because otherwise, you won't be
there won't be safety.

1167
01:09:48,700 --> 01:09:51,000
But if you can come, when Emma's
not here, there will be perfect.

1168
01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:53,700
We can attend to the matter in
perfect safety.

1169
01:09:54,100 --> 01:09:58,700
And so, he basically tells them
to, you know, burn this letter

1170
01:09:58,700 --> 01:10:02,000
after you read it.
But fortunately, they kept the

1171
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:05,500
letter and that is a letter.
One of the few documents we have

1172
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:10,000
in Joseph, Smith's own,
Handwriting and it's not it does

1173
01:10:10,000 --> 01:10:12,500
have any explicit reference to
plural marriage there but he's

1174
01:10:12,500 --> 01:10:14,600
referencing that something
important and recently

1175
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:18,000
transpired between him and the
Whitney family.

1176
01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,300
And that is referencing the
marriage of their daughter which

1177
01:10:21,300 --> 01:10:26,900
happened on July 27th 1842 and
the Revelation documenting that

1178
01:10:26,900 --> 01:10:29,600
marriage has been passed down
the Whitney family and was

1179
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:34,600
preserved in the archives and
included in with a journal

1180
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:39,400
entries afterwards where Joseph
actually steal Eels he'd be

1181
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:43,100
performs re baptisms for Newell
and Elizabeth Whitney and then

1182
01:10:43,100 --> 01:10:44,800
performs a marriage feeling for
them.

1183
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:48,800
The next real shortly after that
August 1842 letter.

1184
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:53,100
So you know there's just so many
sources of William Clayton,

1185
01:10:53,100 --> 01:10:57,600
Diaries and of themselves a
recent critique I heard because

1186
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:00,700
like I said, I'm always looking
for the strongest arguments they

1187
01:11:00,700 --> 01:11:06,000
said, well wasn't Joseph telling
his scribes to, you know, some

1188
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,200
Joseph is telling them to keep
Secret.

1189
01:11:08,300 --> 01:11:12,600
And he's publicly saying that is
record, some journals would

1190
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:14,500
prove him innocent and plural
marriage.

1191
01:11:14,500 --> 01:11:18,000
You know that prove all these
men, perjurers were accusing him

1192
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:22,300
of spiritual life is MM and
adultery.

1193
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:25,200
So what how does William
Clayton's Journal fit with that?

1194
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:29,100
Is he conspiring against Joseph?
And the reality is when you look

1195
01:11:29,100 --> 01:11:32,200
at what Lane Clayton's Journal
it's so much of it is written in

1196
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:36,900
code like 'I came to you know
and and you know he's using

1197
01:11:36,900 --> 01:11:38,900
abbreviations.
Deviations, he's using single

1198
01:11:38,900 --> 01:11:41,900
letters.
He's like, 10 a.m.

1199
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:48,000
MJ to SL, you know, you wouldn't
know what that stands for if it

1200
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:51,200
wasn't for William Clayton later
on saying, that was marrying

1201
01:11:51,200 --> 01:11:54,900
Joseph to to Sarah Lawrence, you
know, it is what he says, you

1202
01:11:54,900 --> 01:11:58,600
know, it's like it's not even,
it's not even half a page entry

1203
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:02,900
and he's being very, very
cryptic and what he's writing to

1204
01:12:02,900 --> 01:12:07,200
avoid, you know, if his journals
happened to fall into unfaithful

1205
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:09,500
That could be, you know, into
the hands of an enemy.

1206
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,500
And so, to answer the reply,
what well, why did Joseph Smith

1207
01:12:13,500 --> 01:12:17,400
on May 26?
1844 say, is he kept scribes

1208
01:12:17,400 --> 01:12:20,400
that would prove him innocent of
all these allegations that were

1209
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,400
being made against him.
So he's talking about his own

1210
01:12:23,400 --> 01:12:27,200
journal, which is kept by
Willard Richards, and that's the

1211
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:31,500
journal that the polygamy Dyers
do use to say, we have all these

1212
01:12:31,500 --> 01:12:33,200
State.
We have several statements in

1213
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:36,500
this journal of Joseph declare,
you know, here he says he's

1214
01:12:36,500 --> 01:12:38,600
walking up and down.
On with a scribe against the

1215
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,300
teaching or preaching of the
plurality of wives and that

1216
01:12:42,300 --> 01:12:46,100
Joseph forbids at, you know,
entries like that and because

1217
01:12:46,100 --> 01:12:52,500
Joseph was keeping a detailed
account of where he was, it

1218
01:12:52,500 --> 01:12:55,100
would it would be a good way to
if somebody were to try to say,

1219
01:12:55,100 --> 01:13:00,400
I know Joseph was with X, you
know, person he can give himself

1220
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:03,600
an alibi, for example, based off
of different journal entries,

1221
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:08,000
saying where he was at.
And so, his journal was Intended

1222
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:12,100
to protect them from, you know,
people who attempt to portray

1223
01:13:12,100 --> 01:13:14,000
him as the specially.
After the jhansi Bennett

1224
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:18,700
Scandal, he was wanted be very
careful about the introduction

1225
01:13:18,700 --> 01:13:23,200
of plural marriage.
But the thing that really sells

1226
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:28,200
the evidence of Joseph, Smith's,
plural, marriage, besides, we

1227
01:13:28,200 --> 01:13:31,800
have the testimony of the
Apostles, the, the, the, the

1228
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:36,000
tried, and trusted apostles who
went on their missions, England,

1229
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:38,900
and came back.
And You know, we're taught about

1230
01:13:38,900 --> 01:13:41,300
the temple ordinances and Temple
doctrines from Joseph Smith.

1231
01:13:41,500 --> 01:13:43,500
We have the testimony of the
plural wives.

1232
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:46,900
We have the testimony of
relatives of different plural,

1233
01:13:46,900 --> 01:13:52,000
wives like the brothers or
sisters, or or parents of

1234
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:56,400
different plural, wives giving
their testimonies of their of

1235
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,800
these marriages.
We have the Contemporary

1236
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,700
documents that exists.
But beyond that, the thing

1237
01:14:03,700 --> 01:14:07,800
that's most compelling to me is
that you have our LDS Sources

1238
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:11,700
people who didn't follow Brigham
Young Who give their testimony

1239
01:14:11,700 --> 01:14:14,600
proving, you know, basically
admitting that even though I

1240
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,800
didn't accept plural marriage.
I know that Joseph Smith

1241
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:21,000
introduced it.
Yeah, that that to me you.

1242
01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:24,200
If you don't have a good
explanation for those sources,

1243
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:28,800
you know you really aren't
creating a whole you know, a

1244
01:14:28,808 --> 01:14:32,900
complete history if you can't
explain why men like William

1245
01:14:32,900 --> 01:14:38,700
Marks.
James White had privately admits

1246
01:14:38,700 --> 01:14:40,600
to Joseph Smith introducing
polygamy.

1247
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:45,300
So that's interesting in his
public Temple, lot case in the

1248
01:14:45,300 --> 01:14:50,500
1893 or 1892 James White and
swears up and down that Joseph

1249
01:14:50,500 --> 01:14:53,700
Smith, never taught polygamy
which would be a compelling

1250
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:56,000
witness.
He says, I was a scribe

1251
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:58,100
inaudible.
I never heard of any woman being

1252
01:14:58,100 --> 01:15:02,200
Joseph's wife except Emma.
She was the only one I saw him

1253
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:06,100
acknowledge as a wife, but
privately we have Him testifying

1254
01:15:06,100 --> 01:15:09,700
to three different are odious
leaders in private, that he knew

1255
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:12,000
that Joseph Smith taught plural
marriage.

1256
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,200
He told Alexander Smith, Joseph
Smith's son.

1257
01:15:15,500 --> 01:15:18,800
He told ww Blair, who is another
are?

1258
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,400
All Deus leader.
He said, I know that he taught

1259
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:25,600
and practiced it in the Emma put
wives hands into Joseph's hands.

1260
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:31,200
And he told he told Joseph
Smith, the third who, you know,

1261
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,300
Joseph, the third was the famous
in his anti polygamy.

1262
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:38,900
Painting.
He told him that I saw the

1263
01:15:38,900 --> 01:15:42,000
original Revelation written, and
William, Clayton, Ted writing,

1264
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:46,600
which and Joseph, the third's
writing in his journal, which

1265
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:52,400
mother burned.
So that's, you know, he that

1266
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:56,300
that's a pretty slam dunk.
He said evidence in my opinion.

1267
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:58,300
Yeah.
When you can get when you

1268
01:15:58,300 --> 01:16:03,500
whenever you can get to rival
sources, so to speak right here

1269
01:16:03,500 --> 01:16:06,200
because let's face it, there
wasn't A lot of hugging it out

1270
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:11,200
between, you know, Brigham's
crew and and the are LDS, right?

1271
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:17,200
So when when those two can agree
that that happened, that carries

1272
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,000
a ton of weight.
Right?

1273
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:23,300
That carries the kind of weight
that's really hard to disprove.

1274
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:27,900
Yeah.
And the thing is, if I had

1275
01:16:27,900 --> 01:16:32,000
sources in the in the brig and
night church, say if I had with

1276
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:34,300
some of the Apostles under
Brigham, Young admitting

1277
01:16:34,300 --> 01:16:38,800
privately, Hey, you know we say
Joseph taught it but I'm not I

1278
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:42,000
don't actually remember ever
seeing him Tana, teach it if

1279
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:45,200
those kinds of sources existed
in the bring my tricks were you

1280
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:48,900
had private acknowledgements.
You know, of the other side

1281
01:16:48,900 --> 01:16:52,800
being correct, you know that
would carry a ton of weight with

1282
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:57,800
me and with any other unbiased
historian that you know you know

1283
01:16:57,800 --> 01:16:59,700
that okay maybe we should trust
Brigham Young.

1284
01:16:59,700 --> 01:17:02,800
If they're saying one thing
publicly in a different thing in

1285
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:05,100
private, but the reality is the
private.

1286
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:08,600
It emits the private journals in
the Brigham and Brigida.

1287
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:12,400
Might Utah are very consistent
with what is said, publicly

1288
01:17:13,800 --> 01:17:16,400
Brigham Young kept, they kept
tons of minutes.

1289
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,700
They were the record Keepers.
That's you know, the funny thing

1290
01:17:19,700 --> 01:17:21,900
is, a lot of people will try to
critique Source.

1291
01:17:21,900 --> 01:17:24,700
The saying you're using, you
know, all these accounts of

1292
01:17:24,700 --> 01:17:28,600
Joseph Smith sermons are coming
from Brigham, Young followers.

1293
01:17:28,900 --> 01:17:31,800
All the people who were keeping
Joseph Smith sermons in Abu

1294
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:34,900
that, I am aware of ended up
following Brigham Young.

1295
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:40,100
Like you know, right right.
Again, it's one of those things

1296
01:17:40,100 --> 01:17:44,800
where you know, absence of, you
know, evidence on the other side

1297
01:17:44,800 --> 01:17:47,800
doesn't necessarily equate truth
especially if Brigham got a

1298
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:52,500
hundred percent of the people
who kept those journals.

1299
01:17:52,500 --> 01:17:56,300
Went went with Brigham.
Yeah, yeah.

1300
01:17:56,300 --> 01:17:59,700
So so there's just tons of
records that, you know, where,

1301
01:17:59,700 --> 01:18:02,400
you know, we have to thank
Brigham Young and, you know,

1302
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:05,400
Wilfred Woodruff and George A
Smith and all these early

1303
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:09,400
Brethren who kept all the
records that they did regarding

1304
01:18:09,500 --> 01:18:12,400
you know, early church history
regarding the na boot stuff that

1305
01:18:12,500 --> 01:18:15,700
you know, when we look at the
history of the church you know

1306
01:18:15,700 --> 01:18:18,400
there isn't a whole lot of good
records in the early history of

1307
01:18:18,400 --> 01:18:22,600
the church and Joseph actually
in a time or two complaints or

1308
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:25,400
says that it was negligent on
them, did not keep his good.

1309
01:18:25,500 --> 01:18:29,300
Records in the Nauvoo, period.
The apostles are keeping all

1310
01:18:29,300 --> 01:18:32,400
kinds of great records that, you
know, they are trying to keep

1311
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:35,100
journals are trying to keep
records of Joseph Smith sermons.

1312
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:38,200
They were sitting at the map
that the feet of the Prophet

1313
01:18:38,300 --> 01:18:41,000
wanting to learn the Deep
Mysteries of the Kingdom as he

1314
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:44,100
taught them as Brigham.
Young actually said, I want to

1315
01:18:44,100 --> 01:18:46,900
not only know what Joseph was
teaching but I want to listen to

1316
01:18:46,900 --> 01:18:50,500
him and learn what, he's not
teaching the public.

1317
01:18:50,500 --> 01:18:53,500
What what can I learn from the
spirit as he withholding?

1318
01:18:53,500 --> 01:18:56,800
Because the people are not yet,
Able to receive it.

1319
01:18:57,200 --> 01:19:01,800
And you know, that's going to
get into another subject of, you

1320
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,100
know, that there were certain
doctrines that were actually

1321
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:08,900
revealed, you know, the church
members testified, they got the

1322
01:19:08,900 --> 01:19:12,800
spirit teaching them principles
in England, before Joseph taught

1323
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:16,000
them and in the united, when
they got back to the United

1324
01:19:16,000 --> 01:19:18,800
States, and you know, that's
something that's used.

1325
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:22,800
That's one of the strong
arguments by the polygamy

1326
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:25,500
Skeptics or pulling me Dyers,
but it's actually not very Be

1327
01:19:25,508 --> 01:19:28,800
strong when you look at it in
total context.

1328
01:19:29,100 --> 01:19:33,600
So just to talk about two of the
other strong Witnesses for our

1329
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:37,300
LDS witnesses, that Joseph Smith
introduced plural marriage.

1330
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:39,900
We're going to talk about
bullying marks first, and then,

1331
01:19:39,900 --> 01:19:44,600
Ebenezer Robinson.
William Marx said an investment

1332
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:47,100
in 1853.
A lot of people try to say

1333
01:19:47,400 --> 01:19:51,500
you're quoting him in the 1860s,
you know, those are decades.

1334
01:19:51,500 --> 01:19:56,100
Layer 1853 is less than 10 years
after Joseph Smith's death And

1335
01:19:56,100 --> 01:19:59,100
he's saying this because plural
marriage has been announced and

1336
01:19:59,100 --> 01:20:02,600
Utah and so he's having to
respond to, you know, publicly.

1337
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:07,900
So he's kind of admitting and
responding to it as Proto our

1338
01:20:07,900 --> 01:20:11,700
LDS individual, he had just been
a part of strange search for a

1339
01:20:11,700 --> 01:20:15,900
bit and he's part of a different
sect for a bit then he's going

1340
01:20:15,900 --> 01:20:17,400
to end up in the earliest
church.

1341
01:20:17,500 --> 01:20:21,000
But he wrote this during my
Administration, the church, I

1342
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:23,600
saw and heard of many things
that are practiced and taught

1343
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:25,200
the I do not believe to be of
God.

1344
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:28,400
But But I continue to do and
teach such principles as were

1345
01:20:28,400 --> 01:20:30,700
plainly revealed as a lot of the
church for.

1346
01:20:30,700 --> 01:20:32,900
I thought that pure and holy
principles only would have a

1347
01:20:32,900 --> 01:20:36,500
tendency to benefit mankind
therefore when the doctrine of

1348
01:20:36,500 --> 01:20:39,700
polygamy was introduced into the
church as a principle of

1349
01:20:39,700 --> 01:20:43,200
exaltation, I took a decided
stand against it, which stand

1350
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:46,000
rendered me.
Quite unpopular with many of the

1351
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:50,300
leading ones in the church.
I all I was also witnessed the

1352
01:20:50,300 --> 01:20:53,600
introduction secretly of a
kingly form of government in

1353
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:55,400
which Joseph suffered himself to
be.

1354
01:20:55,500 --> 01:20:58,500
The king to Reign Over The House
of Israel forever, which I could

1355
01:20:58,500 --> 01:21:01,100
not conceive to be accordance
with the laws of the church.

1356
01:21:01,300 --> 01:21:04,100
But I did not oppose this move,
thinking it, none of my

1357
01:21:04,100 --> 01:21:05,700
business.
So the very go.

1358
01:21:05,700 --> 01:21:09,200
He's mentioning both the temple
ordinances of being anointed

1359
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:12,000
king and a priest right there.
He says, I'm not, I was like to

1360
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:15,300
ponder those things, but I also
wasn't fond of the doctrine of

1361
01:21:15,300 --> 01:21:19,900
polygamy which was introduced as
a principle of exaltation.

1362
01:21:20,300 --> 01:21:24,800
So he wasn't in the church under
Brigham Young very long.

1363
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:30,100
He was He was out its by October
or November of 1844.

1364
01:21:30,500 --> 01:21:33,400
So are you guys say the Brigham
Young introduced it?

1365
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:38,100
Know, he lime, he was very clear
and others letters, he wrote

1366
01:21:38,100 --> 01:21:42,400
that, he knew that Joseph Smith
introduced, you know, plural,

1367
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:45,200
marriage.
And in his opinion he tries to

1368
01:21:45,200 --> 01:21:48,100
frame it in a narrative saying.
I think that Joseph shortly

1369
01:21:48,100 --> 01:21:51,600
before his death, repented of it
and he came to me and told me we

1370
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:54,900
got to put this down and we got
put people on trial for it.

1371
01:21:55,500 --> 01:21:59,800
And this is the story.
He alleges you know, Brigham

1372
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:02,500
Young wasn't enough food when
Joseph died.

1373
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:05,500
And so Brigham Young just has to
frankly in his comments or

1374
01:22:05,500 --> 01:22:08,000
response to that.
He says, some people say that

1375
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:11,300
Joseph denied polygamy before he
died, I don't know.

1376
01:22:11,300 --> 01:22:13,800
But I don't believe he ever did.
You know?

1377
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:16,800
He says I but I do know he was
worn out with it is what Brigham

1378
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:24,000
Young said, but in Cotton but in
contrast, John Taylor was there

1379
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:25,300
with Joseph at the time of his
death.

1380
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:30,100
Death and John Henry Smith wrote
a letter to Joseph Smith.

1381
01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:33,300
The third saying those who are
with Joseph, at the time of his

1382
01:22:33,300 --> 01:22:36,700
death said they never knew of
him to deny the principal and

1383
01:22:36,700 --> 01:22:38,800
they knew that he said he was
willing to die for that

1384
01:22:38,800 --> 01:22:42,100
Revelation just as much as any
other Revelation.

1385
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:45,900
And so what William Marks, I
don't want to paint him as a

1386
01:22:45,907 --> 01:22:48,200
liar.
But it is true that Joseph was

1387
01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:51,500
making public denials, and it is
possible that he tried to paint

1388
01:22:51,500 --> 01:22:55,300
a public denial, you know, we
aren't doing this, you know.

1389
01:22:55,500 --> 01:22:59,200
We aren't doing this polygamy,
you know, that he tried to frame

1390
01:22:59,200 --> 01:23:02,900
that as Joseph repented of.
It is kind of what how I would

1391
01:23:02,900 --> 01:23:05,600
interpret, you know that
statement.

1392
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:10,800
But the reality is, you know,
there's no solid evidence to

1393
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:15,500
argue that he turning, you know,
what kind of profit, you know,

1394
01:23:15,500 --> 01:23:19,600
you introduce a Doctrine
allegedly repents of it, but

1395
01:23:19,600 --> 01:23:22,600
then there's no record, let you
know, supporting William Marks

1396
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:25,300
in this in this regard and why
would you put people on?

1397
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:27,900
Trial, if you were the one who
introduced it, right?

1398
01:23:27,900 --> 01:23:33,100
That doesn't, that doesn't make
sense, you know, the reality is

1399
01:23:33,100 --> 01:23:35,200
a lot.
One of the things that polygamy

1400
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:39,300
deniers will try to say is that
Joseph was very voracious and

1401
01:23:39,300 --> 01:23:43,700
active and putting polygamous on
trial, and really punishing them

1402
01:23:43,700 --> 01:23:47,900
in the novel, by counsel.
The reality, is he really

1403
01:23:47,900 --> 01:23:50,400
punished?
The jhansi Bennett, those were

1404
01:23:50,400 --> 01:23:52,300
involved with John.
See, Bennett's whoredoms.

1405
01:23:52,700 --> 01:23:55,300
Those people are punished
because that wasn't close.

1406
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:58,900
Carriage that was whoredoms
under the, you know, trying to

1407
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:03,100
basically just sleeping around
under the, under the same term

1408
01:24:03,100 --> 01:24:07,800
spiritual y40, you know, they
were they were abusing, you know

1409
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:11,700
what John Taylor said is that,
that John see Bennett learned a

1410
01:24:11,700 --> 01:24:15,000
little bit about plural marriage
and he abused, the principles

1411
01:24:15,000 --> 01:24:19,400
that he learned about for his
own lustful conduct, you know,

1412
01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:21,000
and he's going to be damned for
it.

1413
01:24:22,300 --> 01:24:25,200
I had Kimberly Smith on here.
Not not more.

1414
01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:30,200
In a about a three weeks ago.
So when I release her episode

1415
01:24:31,100 --> 01:24:36,700
and in Joseph, in the one sermon
where, where people really like

1416
01:24:36,700 --> 01:24:40,800
to hang their hat that you know,
Joseph was really against

1417
01:24:41,100 --> 01:24:43,400
polygamy and plural, marriage
and blah blah blah.

1418
01:24:44,300 --> 01:24:51,100
They go back to one statement
out of one sermon and in there.

1419
01:24:51,100 --> 01:24:56,000
He uses the term spiritual.
Why furry Rather than plural

1420
01:24:56,000 --> 01:25:02,000
marriage because in that time,
what jhansi Bennett was doing

1421
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:06,800
was sleeping around and calling
it spiritual why furry?

1422
01:25:07,100 --> 01:25:11,700
So we have to understand that
during that time period, those

1423
01:25:11,700 --> 01:25:15,900
two terms plural.
Marriage and spiritual why furry

1424
01:25:16,100 --> 01:25:21,100
are not interchangeable.
Those are two separate Acts.

1425
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:25,700
So I agree with you and point
mom, you push back a little bit

1426
01:25:25,700 --> 01:25:27,500
on that point.
Okay, why are my point?

1427
01:25:27,500 --> 01:25:32,200
I agree that the May 26 1844
sermon that Joseph is saying

1428
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:36,000
he's being accused of adultery.
He saying this, holy prophet is

1429
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:39,400
saying that I admitted to him
that I'm guilty of adultery.

1430
01:25:39,700 --> 01:25:44,700
Joseph, you know, this is a big
thing that comes up with Oliver

1431
01:25:44,700 --> 01:25:48,000
cowdery where, you know, all of
our Calgary is saying that

1432
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:50,900
Joseph had.
You know, it was accusing him of

1433
01:25:50,900 --> 01:25:52,900
adultery and Joe.
Owes us.

1434
01:25:52,900 --> 01:25:56,000
Big thing is saying, I was not
guilty of adultery and I never

1435
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:59,800
admitted that I was guilty of
adultery, Joseph was doing what

1436
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:02,400
God commanded him.
There's a big difference between

1437
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:06,800
authorized plural, marriage and
adultery so I absolutely agree

1438
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:09,500
that that is what Joseph is
fighting back against this

1439
01:26:09,500 --> 01:26:12,500
William laws, trying to say he's
an adulterer and Joseph's like,

1440
01:26:12,500 --> 01:26:15,900
no, I'm not an adulterer
spiritual, why free?

1441
01:26:15,900 --> 01:26:19,100
And my opinion, John Taylor made
a statement saying we called it

1442
01:26:19,100 --> 01:26:21,000
in the beginning, spiritual why
furry.

1443
01:26:21,300 --> 01:26:25,100
But what I think, And is
because, John C Bennett use the

1444
01:26:25,100 --> 01:26:27,500
same term to describe what he
was doing.

1445
01:26:27,800 --> 01:26:31,000
They had to move away from that,
and that's when I think they

1446
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:33,500
really start, they drop that
term mostly and they started

1447
01:26:33,500 --> 01:26:38,500
just saying select, I see.
Okay, so yeah, there's a cool

1448
01:26:38,500 --> 01:26:39,200
Source.
Lemon.

1449
01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:44,300
White sun is a third party.
With the third hand, witness, he

1450
01:26:44,300 --> 01:26:47,800
actually became a polygamous.
Like his dad in Texas, and then

1451
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:51,500
later on he actually reads, he
joined the Utah church but he

1452
01:26:51,500 --> 01:26:55,000
basically is a third and witness
that he was a young man in

1453
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:58,700
Nauvoo and he was going to, I
think Flora Woodworth.

1454
01:26:58,700 --> 01:27:01,100
He was saying that he was taking
interest in this girly, just got

1455
01:27:01,100 --> 01:27:04,000
home from a mission.
He was taking interest and he

1456
01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:07,400
found out from her mother that
she had been sealed as a wife to

1457
01:27:07,400 --> 01:27:10,000
Joseph Smith.
And so then, you know, he was

1458
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:12,900
kind of told me, you know, you
know, that you're not to take

1459
01:27:12,900 --> 01:27:17,100
interest in her but he basically
said the girls that were

1460
01:27:17,100 --> 01:27:20,600
Joseph's wives called each other
spirituals, so that's another

1461
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:24,100
kind of witness, besides John.
You learned that the authorized

1462
01:27:24,100 --> 01:27:25,900
wives at time.
So they move on.

1463
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:29,300
They move away from the term
because it got corrupted by John

1464
01:27:29,300 --> 01:27:30,900
C Bennett.
Yep.

1465
01:27:30,900 --> 01:27:32,400
Absolutely, this out, that
sounds.

1466
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:36,500
I definitely see it.
So, the big thing in my opinion

1467
01:27:36,500 --> 01:27:41,400
comes down to the legitimacy of
DNC. 132, you know, that is the

1468
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:45,200
big kicker of whether or not
Joseph Smith introduced plural

1469
01:27:45,200 --> 01:27:50,800
marriage and for me, argue
against it is to argue against a

1470
01:27:50,800 --> 01:27:54,600
mountain of evidence as Not tall
as Mount Everest in my opinion

1471
01:27:54,800 --> 01:27:58,800
because you're just trusting
Brigham Young William, Clayton

1472
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:01,700
Joseph, Kingsbury Joseph King.
So when Clayton made the

1473
01:28:01,708 --> 01:28:06,200
original copy, he said and what
Joseph Kingsbury made the copy

1474
01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:09,500
of it for Newell King Whitney,
which was preserved, because I'm

1475
01:28:09,500 --> 01:28:11,400
a burned the original right.
Hmm.

1476
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:16,400
You you also have William Marks
who didn't accept plural

1477
01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:19,600
marriage admit that.
Yes I know that Hiram, read the

1478
01:28:19,600 --> 01:28:21,800
Revelation to the High Council
on polygamy.

1479
01:28:22,100 --> 01:28:24,900
You Leonardo's.
So be you didn't follow Brigham

1480
01:28:24,900 --> 01:28:28,800
Young say, yes.
I know that that Revelation was

1481
01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:32,800
that's in the the Doctrine and
Covenants of the said church.

1482
01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:36,100
Now that is, as far as I
remember the exact same

1483
01:28:36,100 --> 01:28:40,200
Revelation that hiring read to
us and Leonardo be like he

1484
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:43,600
didn't follow Brigham Young.
He followed Sidney Rigdon and so

1485
01:28:43,600 --> 01:28:48,500
he's another different.
Heard hand witness to DNC. 132,

1486
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:52,400
you have Austin tells as a, in
the expository.

1487
01:28:52,500 --> 01:28:56,900
Either gives a very detailed
statement, as does William law

1488
01:28:56,900 --> 01:29:00,900
and Jane law and those are all
affidavits they made in May of

1489
01:29:00,900 --> 01:29:05,400
1844, which are in Joseph,
Smith's lifetime, that describe

1490
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:09,500
DNC, 132 and then not only that,
you have five different, High

1491
01:29:09,500 --> 01:29:12,800
council members who came to Utah
members of the Nabu High

1492
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:14,600
Council.
Say yes, we were in the High

1493
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:18,200
Council and hiring did read the
Revelation which was given on

1494
01:29:18,200 --> 01:29:23,300
July 12th. 1843 to us in the
High Council and we Today, but

1495
01:29:23,300 --> 01:29:25,100
there were three men who didn't
accept it.

1496
01:29:25,100 --> 01:29:28,600
They were William Marks, Austin
cows and Leonardo be.

1497
01:29:28,900 --> 01:29:33,500
And so the fact that you not
only have the five living Utah

1498
01:29:33,500 --> 01:29:38,600
Witnesses, testifying of it, and
five living High Council

1499
01:29:38,600 --> 01:29:41,700
Members.
Plus other, you tell Witnesses.

1500
01:29:42,200 --> 01:29:46,200
Plus the, the all three who
didn't follow Brigham Young,

1501
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:53,400
it's absolutely overwhelming.
That this revelation Came to

1502
01:29:53,400 --> 01:29:57,600
Joe's, you know, that hot and
and they always tie it to the

1503
01:29:57,600 --> 01:30:00,300
higher is what they say, you
know, Hiram is the one who

1504
01:30:00,300 --> 01:30:03,200
really?
I think that personally, what?

1505
01:30:03,200 --> 01:30:06,700
Cause polygamy to almost get out
of the bag, so, to speak and

1506
01:30:06,700 --> 01:30:10,000
novel where it was almost an
Open Secret was after hiring was

1507
01:30:10,000 --> 01:30:12,400
converted.
He basically thought, I thought,

1508
01:30:12,400 --> 01:30:16,100
if I can get converted, I think
anyone on Earth can get

1509
01:30:16,100 --> 01:30:18,900
converted so higher and reads it
to the Nauvoo High Council.

1510
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:23,000
He reads it to the elders
Quorum, you know, he's Even it,

1511
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:25,200
he's reading it.
These teaching it to everyone,

1512
01:30:25,200 --> 01:30:30,400
he can, you know, to try to you
know, that that's Hiram before

1513
01:30:30,400 --> 01:30:32,000
you.
Yeah, I was gonna say when you

1514
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:35,000
read the accounts, you get to
feeling Hiram was on fire,

1515
01:30:35,100 --> 01:30:38,000
right?
Hiram was was definitely out

1516
01:30:38,000 --> 01:30:42,800
there saying God just spoken yet
again, look at this and and he

1517
01:30:42,800 --> 01:30:47,100
he really went, he really went
for preaching that Doctrine.

1518
01:30:48,100 --> 01:30:52,400
Yeah, he went maybe exact 180
from where he was before because

1519
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:58,200
he was so against it that Levi,
Richards, records in his sermon,

1520
01:30:58,500 --> 01:31:03,900
a May 1843 sermon the Hiram gave
where he said, if an angel where

1521
01:31:03,900 --> 01:31:06,900
to appear to you and try to
teach you this principle, you'd

1522
01:31:06,900 --> 01:31:10,500
be sure to see his is black and
tail.

1523
01:31:10,500 --> 01:31:14,000
And his cloven foot basically,
you know, you know it was

1524
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:17,200
actually an Angel of Darkness,
you know, got it, God would

1525
01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:20,400
never Never do, this is what he
said, but then bring them young

1526
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:23,200
gives leaked out of Harm's
conversion, only a week or two

1527
01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:27,600
later and William.
Clayton records, his diary about

1528
01:31:27,700 --> 01:31:31,000
Hiram is laying a trap for the
Brethren of the secret

1529
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:32,600
priesthood.
Those who'd been initiated

1530
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:34,500
plural marriage.
He's giving a heads up.

1531
01:31:34,500 --> 01:31:40,300
I think I'm 8 May 2013 43 by
Heber C Kimball but then four

1532
01:31:40,300 --> 01:31:43,600
days three or four days later on
May 27th.

1533
01:31:44,100 --> 01:31:47,300
He set he records.
President Joseph.

1534
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:52,700
Eating with the twelve well mean
with Judge Adams and certain

1535
01:31:52,700 --> 01:31:57,900
other Brethren Hiram accepted
the doctrine of the priesthood.

1536
01:31:58,500 --> 01:32:04,700
So there's this big period that
Joseph between 1842 and 1843

1537
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:08,000
really does not have the
anointed corm where he's

1538
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:10,500
interested.
So Joseph and 1842 begins to

1539
01:32:10,500 --> 01:32:13,800
introduce the endowment
ordinance but he doesn't

1540
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:16,600
introduce plural marriage
alongside it at the same time.

1541
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:19,900
It's kind of Of plural marriage
is being taught privately and

1542
01:32:19,900 --> 01:32:22,700
you know, an individual
settings.

1543
01:32:23,300 --> 01:32:27,700
The endowment he first gives it
to three Apostles, Brigham Young

1544
01:32:27,800 --> 01:32:33,200
Heber C, Kimball and Willard
Richards to the bolt Bishops.

1545
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:33,500
No.
Okay.

1546
01:32:33,500 --> 01:32:41,000
Whitney and George Miller,
William Marks, William law, and

1547
01:32:41,300 --> 01:32:44,400
James Adams, and higher cement.
So it so you have kind of nine

1548
01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:48,900
men who are in doubt on May, 4th
18 May Fourth and fifth 1842.

1549
01:32:48,900 --> 01:32:53,300
And Joseph is first revealing
the endowment ceremony and

1550
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:57,500
Brigham Young says that Joseph
was absolutely depressed trying

1551
01:32:57,500 --> 01:33:01,100
to do corn meetings with those
guys in he said, Joseph

1552
01:33:01,100 --> 01:33:02,700
absolutely did not want to go
with.

1553
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:07,200
He said Hyrum Smith you know
would be saying things against

1554
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:10,400
it and he said William law would
say you know in what he said

1555
01:33:10,400 --> 01:33:12,900
William lost said and one of
those councils that if an angel

1556
01:33:12,900 --> 01:33:17,300
of the Lord appeared to him and
said that, you know, if you try

1557
01:33:17,500 --> 01:33:20,700
I did teach him polygamy, he
would try to kill him, you know.

1558
01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:24,400
So so so Joseph was absolutely
depressed because he's trying to

1559
01:33:24,407 --> 01:33:28,300
introduce these people to the
full the doctrines pertain to

1560
01:33:28,300 --> 01:33:33,000
the fullness of the priesthood.
And William Marks is accept it.

1561
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:38,200
William law and Hiram are kind
of being in strong opposition

1562
01:33:38,700 --> 01:33:43,700
but when higher makes subset in
1843, Joseph actually goes and

1563
01:33:43,700 --> 01:33:46,800
reconvenes the corm and he re
endows everyone.

1564
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:50,900
He gives them Endowments again,
just to kind of celebrate that

1565
01:33:50,900 --> 01:33:54,900
that Hiram accept this Doctrine.
And then for those who accepted

1566
01:33:54,900 --> 01:33:58,500
the doctor in plural, marriage
Joseph, then administered, the

1567
01:33:58,800 --> 01:34:02,000
Eternal Marriage ceilings to
their first wives.

1568
01:34:02,300 --> 01:34:06,600
And so Hyrum Smith was sealed to
both his living wife and his

1569
01:34:06,600 --> 01:34:10,000
deceased wife, Brigham Young,
you know, all these men, you

1570
01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:13,700
know, ceilings had been
introduced privately for plural,

1571
01:34:13,700 --> 01:34:16,300
marriages, but this is, when
you're finally getting like

1572
01:34:16,300 --> 01:34:19,600
monogamous marriage.
Judges being sealed right this

1573
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:23,100
time right after higher Mix-Ups,
formal marriage and what's

1574
01:34:23,100 --> 01:34:30,400
fascinating is Hyrum Smith.
Himself gives an account of he.

1575
01:34:30,900 --> 01:34:35,100
He he actually teaches announces
the doctrine of Eternal Marriage

1576
01:34:35,100 --> 01:34:37,900
at the April 18 44 General
Conference.

1577
01:34:38,100 --> 01:34:45,300
He he's like he's like I'm going
to talk about Plural marriage at

1578
01:34:45,300 --> 01:34:49,100
this conference, not plural
marriage, Eternal Marriage.

1579
01:34:49,100 --> 01:34:53,500
But the same time he announces
Eternal polygamy and he says

1580
01:34:53,500 --> 01:34:56,000
that Joseph seals him to both
his lip.

1581
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:58,900
Seal them to both his living
wife and his deceased wife.

1582
01:34:59,100 --> 01:35:02,600
He said, quote, I married me a
wife and I'm the only man that

1583
01:35:02,600 --> 01:35:05,100
has any right to her.
We had five children, the

1584
01:35:05,100 --> 01:35:08,000
Covenant was made for our lives.
She fell into the grave before

1585
01:35:08,000 --> 01:35:10,600
God showed us his order.
God has shown me that the

1586
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:12,800
Covenant is dead and had no more
Force.

1587
01:35:12,900 --> 01:35:14,300
Neither could I have her in the
resurrection?

1588
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:16,200
Action, but we should be as
Angels.

1589
01:35:16,500 --> 01:35:19,200
It troubled me Brother.
Joseph said, you can have her

1590
01:35:19,200 --> 01:35:21,000
steal to you upon the same
principle.

1591
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:23,100
You can be baptized for the
dead, I enquired.

1592
01:35:23,100 --> 01:35:24,800
What can I do for my second
wife?

1593
01:35:24,800 --> 01:35:26,900
He replied.
You can also make a covenant

1594
01:35:26,900 --> 01:35:30,000
with her for eternity and have
her sealed you by the authority

1595
01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:32,300
of the priesthood.
I name the subject to my present

1596
01:35:32,300 --> 01:35:35,900
wife and she said I will act as
proxy for your wife does dead

1597
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,200
and I will be sealed to you for
a charity myself for.

1598
01:35:38,200 --> 01:35:41,300
I never had any other husband, I
love you and do not want to be

1599
01:35:41,300 --> 01:35:44,200
separated from you nor to be
forever alone in the world.

1600
01:35:44,400 --> 01:35:46,300
To come.
Is there any man that has no

1601
01:35:46,300 --> 01:35:49,500
more sense that would?
And we'll make it base story of

1602
01:35:49,500 --> 01:35:52,600
such a fact, his name shall be
published, well, honest, man, or

1603
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:54,500
woman can find fault with such a
doctor.

1604
01:35:54,500 --> 01:35:58,800
This none, it is not a Doctrine
to be preached to the world, but

1605
01:35:58,800 --> 01:36:01,700
to the Saints who have obeyed,
the gospel and gathered design.

1606
01:36:01,900 --> 01:36:03,600
It is Glad Tidings of great
door.

1607
01:36:04,000 --> 01:36:07,100
Great, joy, the Lord has given
Joseph, the power of seal on

1608
01:36:07,100 --> 01:36:08,800
Earth and in heaven, those are
found worthy.

1609
01:36:08,900 --> 01:36:11,200
Having the spirit of Elijah and
Elias.

1610
01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:14,300
He has power to seal with a seal
that shall never be broken.

1611
01:36:14,400 --> 01:36:16,900
And it shall be enforced in the
morning of the Resurrection.

1612
01:36:17,000 --> 01:36:19,800
Talk about spiritual wives one,
that is dead.

1613
01:36:19,800 --> 01:36:23,000
And gone is spiritual week, will
come up in the morning of the

1614
01:36:23,008 --> 01:36:25,300
resurrection and every soul that
is saved live.

1615
01:36:25,300 --> 01:36:28,800
An eternal increase of Glory,
will you believe this the

1616
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:31,000
congregation give loud shout to
the day.

1617
01:36:31,400 --> 01:36:36,300
So you know that's clearly
establishing that Eternal

1618
01:36:36,300 --> 01:36:41,100
polygamy was doctrinal.
And that at that conference a

1619
01:36:41,100 --> 01:36:44,200
play saying don't teach this.
The world is what he's saying.

1620
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:47,900
And he says and part of it, he
does have a statement condemning

1621
01:36:47,900 --> 01:36:51,200
Earthly, you know, he's warning
its Earthly practicing polygamy

1622
01:36:51,500 --> 01:36:55,600
but that is in the context he
says, if anyone finds out you

1623
01:36:55,600 --> 01:37:00,500
will end up in a cell and Alton
you won't go to you, you will

1624
01:37:00,700 --> 01:37:03,700
end up in prison if you, you
know, if they find out.

1625
01:37:03,700 --> 01:37:06,900
And so there was this very real
threat that if people

1626
01:37:06,900 --> 01:37:10,300
discovered, you know, if they
could prove it Beyond any doubt

1627
01:37:10,300 --> 01:37:13,000
that these guys were practicing
plural marriage, they

1628
01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:15,500
undoubtedly would have Been
thrown in prison.

1629
01:37:15,700 --> 01:37:18,200
In fact, Joseph Smith's brother,
William Smith.

1630
01:37:18,900 --> 01:37:22,800
He ironically one side of his
mouth is condemning Brigham

1631
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:25,700
Young for teaching and the other
Apostles for teaching pulling me

1632
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:28,400
out of the other side.
He is privately trying to

1633
01:37:28,600 --> 01:37:32,800
practice polygamy himself both
in Nauvoo then when he was

1634
01:37:32,900 --> 01:37:35,000
briefly.
So see with James string and

1635
01:37:35,000 --> 01:37:40,800
then we tried to start his own
church after in 1848 or 18-49.

1636
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:45,000
He his church ends up breaking
up because of him trying to

1637
01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:48,500
teach plural marriage in secret
while condemning it publicly and

1638
01:37:48,500 --> 01:37:53,400
then his wife actually divorces
him and Susan for a divorce with

1639
01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:55,500
the evidence.
She had him teaching it and then

1640
01:37:55,500 --> 01:37:59,600
he actually served some time in
jail for practicing plural

1641
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:03,500
marriage.
So it's 44 doing trying to do

1642
01:38:03,500 --> 01:38:07,200
that among his, so it was a very
real threat and is Orson Hyde

1643
01:38:07,200 --> 01:38:11,900
said, if they knew in Illinois
that we had more than one wife,

1644
01:38:11,900 --> 01:38:14,200
when we were living there, they
would have broken us up.

1645
01:38:14,400 --> 01:38:18,600
Faster than they ever did.
And the reality is I think

1646
01:38:18,600 --> 01:38:21,600
Kimberly mentioned this on your
podcast with.

1647
01:38:21,600 --> 01:38:26,200
Eric Joseph wasn't just
representing himself, you know,

1648
01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:29,900
he was not and not just the
saint but he was the mayor of

1649
01:38:29,900 --> 01:38:34,500
the largest city in Illinois
that time that, you know, Nabu

1650
01:38:34,500 --> 01:38:38,700
was just the Saints gathered,
and novel were just as large of

1651
01:38:38,700 --> 01:38:40,800
a population.
If not large, it was actually

1652
01:38:40,800 --> 01:38:44,800
larger than Chicago, if I'm not
mistaken and so, That would have

1653
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:50,800
brought havoc on the church.
If it was publicized and and

1654
01:38:50,800 --> 01:38:53,300
they probably would have never
gotten the Temple completed if

1655
01:38:53,300 --> 01:38:57,100
Joseph had tried to do plural
marriage publicly, they would

1656
01:38:57,100 --> 01:39:00,700
have gotten kicked out of Nauvoo
faster than you can blink an

1657
01:39:00,700 --> 01:39:04,300
eye.
Yeah, no, you know, it's one of

1658
01:39:04,300 --> 01:39:07,600
the things that the critics will
point to is that, you know, we

1659
01:39:07,600 --> 01:39:13,800
don't hear about plural marriage
or Adam God, Doctrine or name.

1660
01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:17,400
Name your Our doctrine that that
Brigham talked about when he was

1661
01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:21,300
out west.
Well, there's a real good reason

1662
01:39:21,300 --> 01:39:24,300
why right?
People were ready to kill Joseph

1663
01:39:24,300 --> 01:39:27,600
Smith for simply revealing new
scripture.

1664
01:39:28,100 --> 01:39:33,700
Now, can you imagine how how
bloodthirsty, those same people

1665
01:39:33,700 --> 01:39:37,500
would have been, if, by the way,
we're telling you, what the true

1666
01:39:37,500 --> 01:39:41,400
nature of God is here with Adam
God and to top it all off, we're

1667
01:39:41,400 --> 01:39:44,200
going to upset your Victorian
standards.

1668
01:39:44,300 --> 01:39:46,700
Birds with this idea of plural
marriage.

1669
01:39:47,000 --> 01:39:50,900
They would have hung him so
quickly, right?

1670
01:39:50,900 --> 01:39:54,600
So it's no wonder that, it's not
until Brigham is outside the

1671
01:39:54,600 --> 01:40:00,200
United States in a mountainous
Fortress of the Rockies, where

1672
01:40:00,200 --> 01:40:03,700
he feels like he's empowered
enough and safe enough where he

1673
01:40:03,700 --> 01:40:08,500
can let this out publicly.
So when people say, well, we

1674
01:40:08,500 --> 01:40:11,200
just don't hear it as much back
then and I'm like, well, no

1675
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:15,900
kidding.
Your look at the in which Joseph

1676
01:40:15,900 --> 01:40:21,600
is living, you got to be careful
who you pass that along to Yeah,

1677
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:25,000
absolutely.
And that is part dick sources.

1678
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:28,500
Dating back to 1840 to say that
was part of the reason Joseph

1679
01:40:28,500 --> 01:40:30,100
Smith was wanting to do the
call.

1680
01:40:30,100 --> 01:40:33,100
And I do those colonizing
missions where he was saying, we

1681
01:40:33,100 --> 01:40:36,100
need to eventually have some
gathering places in the Rocky

1682
01:40:36,100 --> 01:40:39,700
Mountains and Out West.
They're saying people were

1683
01:40:39,700 --> 01:40:42,300
connecting that part of the
reason was for this was so that

1684
01:40:42,300 --> 01:40:46,400
plural marriage could be lived
in a situation without the

1685
01:40:46,400 --> 01:40:49,600
persecution that was come.
You know, that would come upon

1686
01:40:49,600 --> 01:40:54,000
trying to live it among You know
Gentiles in the United States

1687
01:40:54,500 --> 01:40:58,400
and you know Joseph Lucy Walker
recalled, Joseph saying that I

1688
01:40:58,400 --> 01:41:02,000
can't live with you openly as a
wife now but when the time comes

1689
01:41:02,100 --> 01:41:05,800
in the Rocky Mountains, then I
can openly acknowledge you as my

1690
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:09,800
wife and so the secrecy was only
intended to be temporary.

1691
01:41:10,100 --> 01:41:11,800
You know.
And that's that's also why they

1692
01:41:12,100 --> 01:41:15,500
I believe they didn't have any
children in Abu not until they

1693
01:41:15,500 --> 01:41:17,300
knew that they were going to be
driven from now.

1694
01:41:17,300 --> 01:41:20,800
But once they they knew that you
know, their time there was very

1695
01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:24,000
limited Then, you know, that is,
when I think they started to

1696
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:28,000
say, okay, we can, you know, we
don't have to worry about

1697
01:41:28,000 --> 01:41:30,700
keeping this secret.
Any longer, you know, is, right?

1698
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:33,900
Brigham and Rick, some of the
Reagan said, some of the

1699
01:41:33,900 --> 01:41:37,700
Apostles will deny this, you
know, publicly in the Eastern

1700
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:40,300
places places.
I never deny it, I just

1701
01:41:40,300 --> 01:41:44,000
acknowledge I say, you know, God
has given me my wives and they

1702
01:41:44,000 --> 01:41:47,300
will be at, you know, and God
will honor them as my wife.

1703
01:41:47,300 --> 01:41:51,400
So, you know, regardless of what
anyone else says So Brigham

1704
01:41:51,400 --> 01:41:54,000
Young had too much, he had a
very bold personality and he

1705
01:41:54,008 --> 01:41:57,600
was, you know, absolutely the
right person to take all these

1706
01:41:57,600 --> 01:42:00,300
doctrines that were
controversial and that work you

1707
01:42:00,300 --> 01:42:04,400
know that Joseph knew would
cause persecution and hardship

1708
01:42:04,400 --> 01:42:07,500
on the Saints and Brigham
weathered that storm and was

1709
01:42:07,500 --> 01:42:10,100
willing to establish them, come
hell or high water.

1710
01:42:10,500 --> 01:42:14,300
So yeah, absolutely.
It's what one thing that I would

1711
01:42:14,300 --> 01:42:16,900
like to mention.
There's a great paper by

1712
01:42:16,900 --> 01:42:22,100
Christopher Blythe talking about
plural marriage and other That

1713
01:42:22,100 --> 01:42:25,200
broke off from Nava Mormonism.
Even Joseph, the third admitted

1714
01:42:25,200 --> 01:42:29,100
that most of the different
groups had at some period, some

1715
01:42:29,100 --> 01:42:34,800
form of plural marriage from all
and so alpheus Cutler briefly

1716
01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:38,200
did plural marriage but he
abandoned it very quickly, Lyman

1717
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:41,300
white did, but lime and white
actually, according to Gideon

1718
01:42:41,300 --> 01:42:44,500
Carter because they start to get
some persecution for it Lyman,

1719
01:42:44,500 --> 01:42:47,600
white withdrew, the principal,
and basic, because there were

1720
01:42:47,600 --> 01:42:50,900
some internal conflicts over,
and there are some external

1721
01:42:51,000 --> 01:42:53,200
Russian that black-and-white
said, it's a true and holy

1722
01:42:53,200 --> 01:42:55,200
principal.
Just the world isn't ready for

1723
01:42:55,200 --> 01:42:56,800
it.
He said they still lived with

1724
01:42:56,800 --> 01:42:59,200
their wives when they just
didn't teach it anymore.

1725
01:42:59,700 --> 01:43:01,500
And so you know that's why
Brigham Young.

1726
01:43:01,500 --> 01:43:04,700
I said it's a good thing.
We came out to Utah, Lyman White

1727
01:43:04,700 --> 01:43:06,900
made people think that Joseph
would have wanted the whole

1728
01:43:06,900 --> 01:43:09,100
church.
You go to Texas if we would have

1729
01:43:09,100 --> 01:43:12,200
gone to Texas we would have
already been driven from their

1730
01:43:12,200 --> 01:43:18,000
by now this is what is what what
Brigham Young said so oh there's

1731
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:22,600
so many sources, you know you
want this I want to say one

1732
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:30,400
other thing and that is when you
look at the data and the history

1733
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:38,500
From a truly.
From a place of truly, wanting

1734
01:43:38,500 --> 01:43:42,200
to get to the truth.
I think the evidence is just

1735
01:43:42,300 --> 01:43:46,100
overwhelming that plural,
marriage started, with Joseph

1736
01:43:46,100 --> 01:43:49,700
Smith, right?
They like to say things like,

1737
01:43:49,700 --> 01:43:53,700
well, Joseph didn't, you know,
Joseph didn't receive a

1738
01:43:53,700 --> 01:43:58,100
revelation that would become
DNC. 132, the problem with that

1739
01:43:58,100 --> 01:44:03,500
is that you have Hiram reading
that revelation Right.

1740
01:44:03,500 --> 01:44:07,300
You you have over and you
probably have over a dozen

1741
01:44:07,300 --> 01:44:10,500
people who are credible
Witnesses admitting that it was

1742
01:44:10,500 --> 01:44:15,200
red and it is such a profound
doctrine of that time.

1743
01:44:15,600 --> 01:44:22,800
That as you were just stating
damn near every offshoot from

1744
01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:26,300
the Brigham might church is
practicing plural marriage at

1745
01:44:26,300 --> 01:44:28,900
one point or another.
We know that string.

1746
01:44:28,900 --> 01:44:34,000
Did we know that White's group
did Certainly Brigham did.

1747
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:38,700
That's not a secret as you were
saying, William Smith, William

1748
01:44:38,700 --> 01:44:45,700
Smith, I mean if you just look
at at that, It's hard to make

1749
01:44:45,700 --> 01:44:47,300
the case that.
No, no, this is something

1750
01:44:47,300 --> 01:44:51,800
Brigham made up.
Well that doesn't hold water

1751
01:44:52,200 --> 01:44:55,900
because for a large portion of
that teaching Brigham, if I'm

1752
01:44:55,900 --> 01:44:58,800
not mistaken as either an
England or the eastern states

1753
01:44:58,800 --> 01:45:03,300
Mission doing missionary work.
Why Joseph is revealing a lot of

1754
01:45:03,308 --> 01:45:05,900
this.
So, yep.

1755
01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:10,400
So either Brigham's, really good
about getting back and forth in

1756
01:45:10,800 --> 01:45:16,800
17th century, America from the
East to the Midwest. to lay

1757
01:45:16,800 --> 01:45:23,100
these foundations or maybe the
narratives correct that this

1758
01:45:23,100 --> 01:45:27,400
came from Joseph Smith.
Amen.

1759
01:45:28,000 --> 01:45:31,200
So the next thing I think that
would be a good point to cover.

1760
01:45:33,000 --> 01:45:35,300
Are you recording it?
Yeah we're recording.

1761
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:39,100
Okay, perfect.
So the next thing that I think

1762
01:45:39,100 --> 01:45:43,700
would be a good point to cover
is to steal man our are you know

1763
01:45:43,700 --> 01:45:48,900
just to try to come up with the
strongest Arguments for the

1764
01:45:48,900 --> 01:45:52,200
other side of the issue because
I'd be a hypocrite if I'm

1765
01:45:52,200 --> 01:45:55,300
criticizing them for not
engaging, the strongest points

1766
01:45:55,300 --> 01:45:57,600
against their position and not
do it myself.

1767
01:45:57,900 --> 01:46:01,700
And so I am always looking for
the strongest points and so one

1768
01:46:01,700 --> 01:46:05,400
of the points Try to stay
regarding the women, testifying

1769
01:46:05,400 --> 01:46:08,000
to being sealed.
The Joseph is these were

1770
01:46:08,000 --> 01:46:11,300
adoption ceilings, not marriage
ceiling.

1771
01:46:11,300 --> 01:46:13,800
Since the month with the most
common thing when they see the

1772
01:46:13,800 --> 01:46:17,900
overwhelming evidence of
ceilings and they say lots of

1773
01:46:17,900 --> 01:46:19,400
men.
They said men and women were

1774
01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:24,400
both sealed the Joseph Smith but
the reality with that is we

1775
01:46:24,400 --> 01:46:28,900
don't have any evidence of any
adoption ceilings being

1776
01:46:28,900 --> 01:46:33,000
performed in Joseph, Smith's
lifetime, I've strongly believe

1777
01:46:33,000 --> 01:46:36,200
the law of adoption started with
Joseph Smith because we have

1778
01:46:36,200 --> 01:46:39,800
testimony from many different
Brethren and Utah that Joseph

1779
01:46:39,800 --> 01:46:42,700
Smith revealed the principal
about the ceiling principles.

1780
01:46:43,200 --> 01:46:47,200
But the reality is, you know,
Brigham Young said, the law of

1781
01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:51,600
adoption could only be done in a
temple, everything else he was

1782
01:46:51,600 --> 01:46:55,100
willing to do outside of a
temple but he said lava adoption

1783
01:46:55,200 --> 01:46:58,800
and ordinance work for the dead.
The basics is like endowments

1784
01:46:58,800 --> 01:47:02,300
and second anointing for the
dead where where he draws lines,

1785
01:47:02,300 --> 01:47:07,200
they Those must wait until we
get another temple built and so

1786
01:47:07,200 --> 01:47:10,000
that's I believe that even
though that's why Joe's even

1787
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:13,900
though, Joseph, very likely
taught adoption and part of the

1788
01:47:13,900 --> 01:47:17,100
reason I believe, Joseph
adoption is lime and white was

1789
01:47:17,100 --> 01:47:19,800
doing adoptions in Texas.
So at Brigham Young has a lot of

1790
01:47:19,800 --> 01:47:22,200
adoption and Utah and lime and
white as it in Texas.

1791
01:47:22,200 --> 01:47:26,000
That's compelling evidence that
it came from Joseph.

1792
01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:31,300
The reason that Joseph didn't do
it is because he was waiting for

1793
01:47:31,300 --> 01:47:34,400
the temple to be Added and in
fact, when you look at the

1794
01:47:34,400 --> 01:47:39,100
Nauvoo Temple Revelation, DNC
124, it's very clear that, you

1795
01:47:39,100 --> 01:47:41,200
know, the fullness, the
ordinances pertaining to the

1796
01:47:41,200 --> 01:47:44,200
fullness of the priesthood.
We're supposed to wait until a

1797
01:47:44,208 --> 01:47:47,900
temple was completed, you know,
it says that multiple times

1798
01:47:47,900 --> 01:47:51,400
throughout that Revelation and
it took special Revelation for

1799
01:47:51,400 --> 01:47:53,900
Joseph 3.
Authorized to say, give

1800
01:47:53,900 --> 01:47:58,500
endowments outside of the temple
to give s anointings outside the

1801
01:47:58,500 --> 01:48:02,500
temple that he received special
Revelation to perform those

1802
01:48:02,700 --> 01:48:05,600
Ordinances because the Lord
said, you're probably not going

1803
01:48:05,600 --> 01:48:07,100
to live to see the temple
completed.

1804
01:48:07,100 --> 01:48:12,400
So I am authorizing you to give
these by permission even though,

1805
01:48:12,500 --> 01:48:15,100
you know, they will have all
ordinance work done outside of a

1806
01:48:15,100 --> 01:48:19,600
temple will have to be ratified
in a temple is what was taught.

1807
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:24,800
So the adoption serum ceiling
theory is something that you

1808
01:48:25,200 --> 01:48:29,200
might see another theory is that
this is only intended for

1809
01:48:29,200 --> 01:48:32,500
eternity.
Only is the big thing that's it.

1810
01:48:32,600 --> 01:48:35,800
Common theory personally I think
that Ville like the late Kimball

1811
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:39,500
letter, we read about Sara Lee
getting pregnant and was tickled

1812
01:48:39,500 --> 01:48:42,400
pink about it.
That seems to be pretty

1813
01:48:42,400 --> 01:48:45,600
compelling evidence in and of
itself that this was not meant

1814
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:49,500
to be right.
Only even though that's Joseph

1815
01:48:49,500 --> 01:48:51,700
2/3.
Concession was you would concede

1816
01:48:51,700 --> 01:48:53,800
maybe women were sealed for an
eternity.

1817
01:48:53,800 --> 01:48:57,400
Say only was was what he said
but another strong piece of

1818
01:48:57,400 --> 01:49:01,800
evidence Against The Eternity.
Only theory is Ebenezer

1819
01:49:01,800 --> 01:49:04,900
Robinson.
Who gave he was another.

1820
01:49:04,900 --> 01:49:10,200
Our LDS church member, he gave
his testimony, both publicly and

1821
01:49:10,200 --> 01:49:15,100
first, I think he first
privately is our oldest church

1822
01:49:15,100 --> 01:49:16,900
member.
He gave his testimony to several

1823
01:49:16,900 --> 01:49:22,000
different people.
But later publicly he came out

1824
01:49:22,000 --> 01:49:24,800
and said you taught didn't start
all this stuff.

1825
01:49:25,100 --> 01:49:31,200
He later came out and did a
magazine called the return which

1826
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:34,300
he's going over.
His experience in Nauvoo.

1827
01:49:34,300 --> 01:49:37,100
Explain, I know that a lot of
these secret things that you

1828
01:49:37,100 --> 01:49:40,000
toss doing from the temple
ordinances the endowment

1829
01:49:40,000 --> 01:49:42,900
ceremony to the the plural
marriage.

1830
01:49:42,900 --> 01:49:46,000
I know this all started when
Joseph Smith, but anyhow, here's

1831
01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:49,700
a letter, he wrote to Joseph
Smith, the third you said higher

1832
01:49:49,700 --> 01:49:52,600
Smith taught me, the doctrine
and told me and my first wife

1833
01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:55,200
that he heard the voice of the
lord giveth the Revelation on

1834
01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:58,800
polygamy, on spiritual urgings
to his brother, Joseph your

1835
01:49:58,800 --> 01:50:01,800
father and that which he hire
mad heretofore opposed the

1836
01:50:01,800 --> 01:50:03,800
doctrine.
He was wrong in his brother,

1837
01:50:03,800 --> 01:50:06,900
Joseph was right all the time,
having a perfect, personal

1838
01:50:06,900 --> 01:50:08,900
knowledge of these facts
together with many others.

1839
01:50:08,900 --> 01:50:11,000
I have not stated a denial of
them.

1840
01:50:11,000 --> 01:50:15,400
Sounds to me like a great lie.
I am sorry to say so, but we

1841
01:50:15,400 --> 01:50:18,300
cannot undo the past our
heavenly father knows, all

1842
01:50:18,300 --> 01:50:21,300
things were beforehand.
We stand and Jesus tells us that

1843
01:50:21,300 --> 01:50:23,700
all things are written by the
father, that every secret thing

1844
01:50:23,700 --> 01:50:25,800
shall be revealed.
And that, which is whispered in

1845
01:50:25,800 --> 01:50:29,400
the air shall be published on
the housetops and then later on.

1846
01:50:29,600 --> 01:50:33,400
He said, so in a different
letter this is a Allure to Jason

1847
01:50:33,400 --> 01:50:38,500
bricks, he said so he said he's
doing question and answers.

1848
01:50:38,600 --> 01:50:40,600
Jason Briggs.
That's how did hires her teach

1849
01:50:40,600 --> 01:50:46,300
you to practice polygamy and
keep it hid in. 1843, answer, he

1850
01:50:46,300 --> 01:50:49,400
instructed me to take a
selection of some young woman

1851
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:52,500
and he would steal her to me and
I should take her home.

1852
01:50:52,600 --> 01:50:55,600
And if she should have Offspring
give out word, that she had a

1853
01:50:55,600 --> 01:50:58,900
husband and Elder who had gone
on a foreign Mission.

1854
01:50:59,300 --> 01:51:02,400
He says, and we were told there
was a place, a few miles out

1855
01:51:02,400 --> 01:51:06,300
from um Nauvoo where females
were sent for the purpose of, if

1856
01:51:06,300 --> 01:51:11,000
they Where to hide polygamists
purse.

1857
01:51:11,100 --> 01:51:14,300
So that shows that this wasn't
an eternity, only thing.

1858
01:51:14,300 --> 01:51:17,300
If he's saying that hire him
saying, don't worry, you know,

1859
01:51:17,300 --> 01:51:20,400
if she gets pregnant, you know,
if she gets pregnant, we will

1860
01:51:20,400 --> 01:51:23,100
just say she has an elder on a
mission and then he also

1861
01:51:23,100 --> 01:51:25,700
remembered that they were told
there was a place away a few

1862
01:51:25,700 --> 01:51:31,700
miles away from 12 or 18 miles
from Naboo we're polygamists.

1863
01:51:31,700 --> 01:51:35,700
Births could be kept secret, you
know to go for a time if it was

1864
01:51:35,700 --> 01:51:39,800
a controversy.
And so and William Clay and

1865
01:51:39,800 --> 01:51:43,600
similarly recalled you know in
his journal he that is plural

1866
01:51:43,600 --> 01:51:45,400
wife.
She got pregnant.

1867
01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:47,800
She was one of the first
pregnancies and plural marriage

1868
01:51:47,900 --> 01:51:52,200
and he actually had both Joseph
and Emma, give him counsel

1869
01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:55,600
regarding it and Joseph said,
don't worry, just broke it.

1870
01:51:55,800 --> 01:52:00,000
And if people find out and make
a fuss, then I will cut you off

1871
01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:03,000
from the church, but then
re-baptized you and set you

1872
01:52:03,000 --> 01:52:10,000
ahead as good as ever.
So well, That, that's a pretty,

1873
01:52:10,100 --> 01:52:12,100
you know, telling statement
right there.

1874
01:52:12,100 --> 01:52:15,800
The fact as a fundamentalist
that shows that this Doctrine,

1875
01:52:15,800 --> 01:52:18,600
which was originally introduced
in private and not yet, given to

1876
01:52:18,600 --> 01:52:22,700
the total church yet, it was a
doctrine of the priesthood and

1877
01:52:22,700 --> 01:52:27,800
even if William Smith is, excuse
me, William play in was cut off

1878
01:52:27,800 --> 01:52:30,300
from the church.
His standing in the priesthood

1879
01:52:30,300 --> 01:52:33,800
would have still just been as
valid, you know, as John Taylor

1880
01:52:33,800 --> 01:52:36,900
and many other statements say
that you can't be cut off.

1881
01:52:37,800 --> 01:52:39,800
You know, you.
No man can lose his priesthood

1882
01:52:39,800 --> 01:52:43,600
except through transgression so
it doesn't matter if you're cut

1883
01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:46,700
off from the church, it matters
whether you are actually being

1884
01:52:46,700 --> 01:52:48,900
immoral or not, right?
Right.

1885
01:52:50,900 --> 01:52:54,700
So that kind of addresses the
first point adoption ceilings

1886
01:52:55,600 --> 01:52:59,400
and the other big thing I would
say is no other no other group

1887
01:52:59,700 --> 01:53:03,300
ever attempted to say that these
were adoption ceilings.

1888
01:53:03,500 --> 01:53:06,800
Like if that were the case, why
didn't William William Marks

1889
01:53:06,800 --> 01:53:09,300
would have been opposed to it.
You know, you wouldn't have all

1890
01:53:09,300 --> 01:53:12,300
these different people who are
saying yes, he taught it, sadly

1891
01:53:12,300 --> 01:53:14,400
taught it.
If it was just add option,

1892
01:53:14,400 --> 01:53:19,100
feelings, Emma, or want someone
would have clarified that and

1893
01:53:19,100 --> 01:53:22,700
said, hey, those, you People are
twisting something into being

1894
01:53:22,700 --> 01:53:26,200
something that it wasn't.
Yes, women were adopted

1895
01:53:26,900 --> 01:53:31,700
spiritually but it wasn't for
any life situation.

1896
01:53:31,700 --> 01:53:36,000
You know, she doesn't say she
actually explicitly denies even

1897
01:53:36,100 --> 01:53:40,300
that the eternity only she says
not as a lit, not as a real wife

1898
01:53:40,300 --> 01:53:43,700
or even a spiritual life,
nothing of the sort happened in

1899
01:53:43,700 --> 01:53:48,300
her are LDS denial.
So she didn't leave open this,

1900
01:53:49,200 --> 01:53:52,300
you know, it's unfortunate that
She did make the denial, she did

1901
01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:55,600
under the influence of her son,
Joseph third.

1902
01:53:57,300 --> 01:54:01,500
So clearly the adoption ceilings
not pulling me doesn't hold a

1903
01:54:01,500 --> 01:54:04,400
whole lot of water as an
argument but that is one that

1904
01:54:04,400 --> 01:54:08,500
they try to mention the I think
we already covered pretty good.

1905
01:54:08,600 --> 01:54:12,600
The lack of pregnancies from
Joseph and Hyrum my strong

1906
01:54:12,600 --> 01:54:17,000
impression with that is the
church leaders were, especially

1907
01:54:17,000 --> 01:54:20,400
careful because they knew the
eyes were on them that you know,

1908
01:54:20,600 --> 01:54:22,800
They didn't, they were not
planning to have any children

1909
01:54:22,800 --> 01:54:27,200
with their plural wives until
they could get Colony out west.

1910
01:54:27,400 --> 01:54:29,700
Right?
Could, you know, without it

1911
01:54:29,700 --> 01:54:32,500
causing a problem.
The people who did have

1912
01:54:32,500 --> 01:54:36,500
pregnancies in Abu so you say
William Clayton, Joseph

1913
01:54:36,500 --> 01:54:41,400
Kingsbury, they're plural wives
maybe even if Ebenezer Robinson

1914
01:54:41,400 --> 01:54:44,700
would have accepted pulling me
maybe he might have but you

1915
01:54:44,708 --> 01:54:48,500
didn't exactly give me.
So these are just lay members

1916
01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:50,400
who are being introduced to
plural marriage.

1917
01:54:50,500 --> 01:54:53,300
Judge lay members aren't going
to have the eyes on them.

1918
01:54:53,300 --> 01:54:57,400
That say, the eyes are all on
Joseph and say, all right?

1919
01:54:57,400 --> 01:55:03,700
Yeah, so I think leaders were
very deliberate to avoid having

1920
01:55:04,100 --> 01:55:08,300
it cause problems for the church
at large if that makes sense.

1921
01:55:08,500 --> 01:55:11,300
No, absolutely.
I mean, a late a normal.

1922
01:55:12,500 --> 01:55:15,100
I don't want to see
run-of-the-mill but a lay member

1923
01:55:15,100 --> 01:55:19,700
is going to have a lot less eyes
on him than say, Joseph or Hiram

1924
01:55:19,700 --> 01:55:23,100
or Brigham.
Or any of the other, you know,

1925
01:55:23,100 --> 01:55:27,200
major leaders of that time.
Yeah.

1926
01:55:27,300 --> 01:55:32,200
So the next thing I want to
cover is the allegation of

1927
01:55:32,200 --> 01:55:35,200
polygamy actually started in
England where it was revealed in

1928
01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:37,100
English because that's a very
common one.

1929
01:55:37,400 --> 01:55:40,900
That is gotten a lot more
popular than a lot more water

1930
01:55:40,900 --> 01:55:45,000
been put or wait be put to this
argument because Brigham Young

1931
01:55:45,500 --> 01:55:47,600
several times made comments
about this.

1932
01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:50,900
He said while we were in England
the Lord made manifest to me by

1933
01:55:50,900 --> 01:55:52,900
visions and is Spirit things
that I did.

1934
01:55:52,900 --> 01:55:55,700
Not then understand I never
opened my mouth.

1935
01:55:55,700 --> 01:55:58,800
Any person could Stirring them
until I return to Nabu Joseph

1936
01:55:58,800 --> 01:56:00,600
and never mentioned this.
There'd never been a thought of

1937
01:56:00,600 --> 01:56:03,300
it in the church, that I knew
anything about that time, but

1938
01:56:03,300 --> 01:56:07,200
this I had for myself and I kept
it to myself if I returned home,

1939
01:56:07,200 --> 01:56:08,800
Joseph revealed these things to
him.

1940
01:56:09,000 --> 01:56:11,500
I then understood the
reflections that were upon my

1941
01:56:11,500 --> 01:56:16,100
mind while in England, but then
he goes on and he tells Joseph

1942
01:56:16,100 --> 01:56:18,000
and he looks around, and looks
me in the eyes and says,

1943
01:56:18,000 --> 01:56:20,800
brother, Brigham, are you in?
Are you in Earnest?

1944
01:56:21,300 --> 01:56:22,700
Are you speaking?
What you understand?

1945
01:56:22,700 --> 01:56:24,900
Are you in Earnest?
Says, all right, I speak just as

1946
01:56:24,900 --> 01:56:28,200
a spirit manifests to me.
Says he God bless you, the Lord

1947
01:56:28,200 --> 01:56:30,500
has opened your mind and he
turned and went off.

1948
01:56:30,700 --> 01:56:34,300
So he said that was his first
conversation right?

1949
01:56:34,500 --> 01:56:37,400
Well with Joseph.
And so some trying to say that

1950
01:56:37,400 --> 01:56:40,100
isn't that weird?
That say Brigham Young would get

1951
01:56:40,100 --> 01:56:42,700
the Rev would get a revelation
before Joseph taught him.

1952
01:56:42,700 --> 01:56:45,500
Doesn't that sound like a odd
story.

1953
01:56:45,800 --> 01:56:51,000
So the reality is everyone in
the church, is able to get

1954
01:56:51,000 --> 01:56:54,000
Revelations.
You know, it's not just, you

1955
01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:56,800
know, it never was taught in
early Mormonism that Just the

1956
01:56:56,800 --> 01:56:58,800
profit is the only one that
state Revelation.

1957
01:56:58,800 --> 01:57:01,600
He's the only one that's to
reveal new doctrine for the

1958
01:57:01,600 --> 01:57:06,300
church but all the members are
you in order to be a faithful

1959
01:57:06,300 --> 01:57:09,600
member, you need to be getting
Revelations for yourself to

1960
01:57:09,600 --> 01:57:13,000
guide you from the whole from
Holy Ghost and so Brigham, Young

1961
01:57:13,000 --> 01:57:15,800
actually tells a story, that's
funny kind of funny.

1962
01:57:16,100 --> 01:57:18,900
He says he got a revelation
before Joe.

1963
01:57:18,900 --> 01:57:21,300
So I'm in science camp and
they're marching to Missouri

1964
01:57:21,300 --> 01:57:25,800
playing to reclaim Zion, right?
He says he got Revelation 2 or 3

1965
01:57:25,800 --> 01:57:28,400
days before.
Joseph, that they weren't going

1966
01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:32,100
to actually fight the Lord had
accepted their labors and he

1967
01:57:32,100 --> 01:57:34,600
tells a couple people that he
got this Revelation.

1968
01:57:34,900 --> 01:57:38,400
And then finally, Joseph tells
the whole camp that he, you

1969
01:57:38,407 --> 01:57:40,800
know, the Rev Lord wasn't going
to require them to fight and

1970
01:57:40,800 --> 01:57:43,200
that the Lord had just accepted
accepted their labors.

1971
01:57:43,500 --> 01:57:45,500
And barium said he was actually
ashamed.

1972
01:57:45,800 --> 01:57:49,200
That even though he got a
revelation that he would name it

1973
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:52,800
before, Joseph had named it and
he said, I learned my lesson

1974
01:57:52,800 --> 01:57:56,700
that time that, you know, if the
Lord reveals things to you You

1975
01:57:56,900 --> 01:57:59,200
you need to keep them to
yourself unless the Lord

1976
01:57:59,200 --> 01:58:02,100
commands you otherwise, you
know, you know, there's this

1977
01:58:02,100 --> 01:58:04,600
confidentiality and that's
something Joseph really

1978
01:58:04,600 --> 01:58:07,600
emphasize too.
If you remember a novel where he

1979
01:58:07,600 --> 01:58:11,100
said that you know the Lord will
not reveal his secrets to US

1980
01:58:11,100 --> 01:58:14,200
unless we are capable of keeping
his Secrets.

1981
01:58:14,400 --> 01:58:17,800
Yep.
So I think this also points out

1982
01:58:18,100 --> 01:58:23,100
just why Brigham Young was the
one to whom the mantle fell,

1983
01:58:23,800 --> 01:58:26,300
right?
Because on several occasions.

1984
01:58:26,500 --> 01:58:30,800
As you so eloquently eloquently
pointed out, Brigham is

1985
01:58:30,800 --> 01:58:34,900
receiving.
The sink, the same, kind of

1986
01:58:34,907 --> 01:58:40,900
Revelations, Joseph is right.
And Joseph is simply backing up,

1987
01:58:40,900 --> 01:58:46,000
what, what, what what Brigham
has felt do, Brigham is kept it

1988
01:58:46,000 --> 01:58:48,600
to himself for them for the most
part, right?

1989
01:58:49,100 --> 01:58:54,400
And so I think this is also a
testimony builder of just how

1990
01:58:54,400 --> 01:58:57,800
NSYNC Brigham was with the
spirit and with the Lord,

1991
01:58:58,000 --> 01:59:01,200
because he was capable of
receiving the same things.

1992
01:59:01,200 --> 01:59:06,800
Joseph was Yeah, so, Brigham
Young, this is at well-known,

1993
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:08,600
but bringing me.
I actually had the doctrine of

1994
01:59:08,600 --> 01:59:11,700
exaltation revealed to him in
England.

1995
01:59:12,200 --> 01:59:14,500
A lot of people remember,
Lorenzo Snow saying that in

1996
01:59:14,500 --> 01:59:18,100
England, he got it revealed.
As man is God wants was and

1997
01:59:18,100 --> 01:59:21,000
Scott is man, may become and
Lorenzo said it was actually

1998
01:59:21,000 --> 01:59:24,100
partially revealed to him
earlier by a patriarchal,

1999
01:59:24,100 --> 01:59:27,700
Blessing by Joseph Smith Senior
in Kirtland where he said you

2000
01:59:27,700 --> 01:59:31,300
will be as you know, his
greatest god is is what you know

2001
01:59:31,300 --> 01:59:35,800
if you are faithful Had you know
that that kind of open his mind

2002
01:59:35,800 --> 01:59:39,600
to it but Graham had the exact
same Revelation in England.

2003
01:59:39,800 --> 01:59:42,600
He said while on a mission to
England, the following came

2004
01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:47,300
forcibly to my mind as God was.
So we are now in as he is now.

2005
01:59:47,300 --> 01:59:50,200
So we shall be, our father was
born, a parents, having a

2006
01:59:50,200 --> 01:59:53,800
father, the and mother there
just the same as we have and

2007
01:59:53,800 --> 01:59:57,600
there's several other statements
of you know, of him talking

2008
01:59:57,600 --> 02:00:00,400
about that.
But what's interesting is we

2009
02:00:00,400 --> 02:00:04,500
know that might sound odd also
But we actually have documented

2010
02:00:04,500 --> 02:00:07,700
proof that the doctrine of
baptism for the dead actually

2011
02:00:07,700 --> 02:00:13,200
originated in England, among the
English converts in that a woman

2012
02:00:13,200 --> 02:00:18,900
named and Booth had a vision in
England, about salvation for the

2013
02:00:18,907 --> 02:00:21,500
dead that the gospel is being
preached to the spirit world.

2014
02:00:21,700 --> 02:00:24,900
And in this Vision, she was
shown that the baptism was being

2015
02:00:24,900 --> 02:00:30,300
offered to the spirits in the
spirit world and the circulated

2016
02:00:30,300 --> 02:00:32,700
in England.
And Joseph Got Back.

2017
02:00:33,100 --> 02:00:35,400
Set my letter back to the United
States.

2018
02:00:35,800 --> 02:00:40,700
And Joseph, Joseph gets her that
vision and says, yes, that's a

2019
02:00:40,708 --> 02:00:44,600
correct vision and she said,
there's something incorrect and

2020
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,500
that she was thinking that maybe
baptism was offered that they

2021
02:00:47,500 --> 02:00:50,200
were performing baptisms in the
spirit world, he says, but that

2022
02:00:50,200 --> 02:00:52,400
was it.
That was just a misunderstanding

2023
02:00:52,400 --> 02:00:56,400
that wasn't you know the vision
was impressing upon her mind,

2024
02:00:56,400 --> 02:01:01,200
the necessity of baptism.
And so that's where the first

2025
02:01:01,200 --> 02:01:05,100
inklings of baptism originated.
Was actually from England and so

2026
02:01:05,100 --> 02:01:07,900
Brigham Young also comment on
baptism for the dead saying, the

2027
02:01:07,900 --> 02:01:10,600
doctor baptism for the dead.
You've been taught for sometime

2028
02:01:10,700 --> 02:01:12,500
in the first account that I
heard of it.

2029
02:01:12,500 --> 02:01:15,200
While I was in England, it was
there that I got the Glad

2030
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:17,800
Tidings that the living to go
forth and be baptized for those

2031
02:01:17,800 --> 02:01:20,500
that have fallen asleep.
Obviously, that practice it in

2032
02:01:20,500 --> 02:01:21,100
England.
They did.

2033
02:01:21,500 --> 02:01:23,400
It was until they came back to
the United States.

2034
02:01:23,400 --> 02:01:28,400
And Joseph kind of you know
Joseph laid out in the procedure

2035
02:01:28,400 --> 02:01:31,800
to perform that ordinance.
But you know that there's

2036
02:01:32,000 --> 02:01:36,300
precedents for Revelation in
England on on these different

2037
02:01:36,300 --> 02:01:39,000
doctrines.
And in my mind, this all makes

2038
02:01:39,000 --> 02:01:44,500
sense because a quote to quote,
a quote, by John Taylor that I

2039
02:01:44,508 --> 02:01:47,500
actually just recently read, he
said, I remember on a

2040
02:01:47,508 --> 02:01:50,200
certification, in Liverpool in
England.

2041
02:01:50,400 --> 02:01:53,300
We were told not to say anything
about the doctrine of the

2042
02:01:53,300 --> 02:01:55,500
Gathering.
A lady came to me and said, she

2043
02:01:55,500 --> 02:01:57,700
had a singular Dream.
I Dreamed, she said that with a

2044
02:01:57,708 --> 02:02:00,300
whole church was going off to
America and that you were there

2045
02:02:00,300 --> 02:02:02,400
and we were going to board a
ship and leave for America.

2046
02:02:02,900 --> 02:02:05,100
And he goes, what was the reason
of her having this dream?

2047
02:02:05,400 --> 02:02:08,100
She had embraced the gospel and
it revealed certain things to

2048
02:02:08,100 --> 02:02:10,900
her that she could not have
known in any other way.

2049
02:02:12,100 --> 02:02:14,000
Your old men shall dream dreams
Etc.

2050
02:02:14,000 --> 02:02:17,000
Can you keep people and the dark
and relation to these things

2051
02:02:17,000 --> 02:02:18,800
know?
And when a people live, their

2052
02:02:18,800 --> 02:02:21,300
religion and all the corners of
the church are walking up to

2053
02:02:21,308 --> 02:02:24,400
their privileges, the certain
ancient aphorism would be

2054
02:02:24,400 --> 02:02:26,600
correct.
The voice of the people is the

2055
02:02:26,600 --> 02:02:29,100
voice of God, in the voice of
the god, is the voice of the

2056
02:02:29,100 --> 02:02:31,600
people and it would suit either
way.

2057
02:02:32,100 --> 02:02:35,300
So, it's As we said that they
were for a brief time in

2058
02:02:35,308 --> 02:02:37,600
England, they weren't talking
about the doctor and Gathering,

2059
02:02:37,600 --> 02:02:41,000
but members of members had a
dream about it, anyway, being a

2060
02:02:41,300 --> 02:02:44,700
principal.
So and Brigham Young and the

2061
02:02:44,700 --> 02:02:48,200
Council of 50 when they're
discussing the issue of keeping

2062
02:02:48,200 --> 02:02:53,400
things confidential in the
Council of 50 and of you, this

2063
02:02:53,400 --> 02:02:56,600
is after Joseph's death.
He says the problem of having

2064
02:02:57,000 --> 02:03:00,500
the Saints knowing what is going
on this Council quote, the whole

2065
02:03:00,500 --> 02:03:04,600
church knows what we are doing
the It dictates it to them and

2066
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:08,000
you can't shut it out from them.
So, you know, the saints that

2067
02:03:08,000 --> 02:03:10,900
are living, their religion are
going to get Revelations from

2068
02:03:10,900 --> 02:03:15,400
the spirit, you know, keeping
them in the loop of what's going

2069
02:03:15,400 --> 02:03:19,400
on and what they need to know
for their salvation and you have

2070
02:03:19,400 --> 02:03:22,500
similar things with plural.
Marriage, like Bishop Abraham's

2071
02:03:22,500 --> 02:03:25,700
hunsaker said he heard whispers
about plural marriage being

2072
02:03:25,700 --> 02:03:29,600
taught in Abu and it troubled
him until he and he prayed to

2073
02:03:29,600 --> 02:03:33,600
the Lord earnestly to get a
vision for Self.

2074
02:03:33,700 --> 02:03:37,700
And that's when he had a
glorious angel or actually a god

2075
02:03:37,900 --> 02:03:40,300
appeared to him, it might have
even been Christ, you know, he

2076
02:03:40,300 --> 02:03:43,300
doesn't specify and tell him
that, you know, you will not

2077
02:03:43,300 --> 02:03:46,100
inherit the glory.
I have unless you have, you

2078
02:03:46,100 --> 02:03:49,900
know, the counselors that I have
and he appeared with his wives

2079
02:03:49,900 --> 02:03:54,500
alongside him.
So, you know, that's that, you

2080
02:03:54,500 --> 02:03:58,600
know, to me the argument in
English that people were getting

2081
02:03:58,600 --> 02:04:01,700
Revelations on it and England
doesn't bother me at all because

2082
02:04:01,700 --> 02:04:04,400
that just shows that the The
saints were living up to their

2083
02:04:04,400 --> 02:04:06,900
Privileges and getting
Revelations from the Lord.

2084
02:04:07,900 --> 02:04:09,800
Yeah.
Last sorry.

2085
02:04:10,500 --> 02:04:14,800
No, you go ahead.
I was going to say it's

2086
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:20,200
interesting because we see this
even sometimes with inventions

2087
02:04:20,200 --> 02:04:26,100
or technology, right?
Oftentimes Men will have the

2088
02:04:26,100 --> 02:04:32,100
same idea about the same thing
simultaneously and it's not till

2089
02:04:32,100 --> 02:04:33,800
they all do.
Yeah.

2090
02:04:33,900 --> 02:04:37,100
And it's not until they all come
together that they come with

2091
02:04:37,100 --> 02:04:41,100
their various parts and pieces
to put it all together.

2092
02:04:41,400 --> 02:04:46,100
So, this, this isn't unusual.
And, and I've said this before

2093
02:04:46,100 --> 02:04:50,600
about Mormonism, if we're not
having an encounter with a the

2094
02:04:50,600 --> 02:04:54,200
Divine, whether that is a
manifestation of the spirit,

2095
02:04:54,400 --> 02:05:00,000
whether Is miraculous blessings.
Whatever the case is, if we're

2096
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:03,100
not having those, I don't think
we're doing Mormonism, quite

2097
02:05:03,100 --> 02:05:04,900
right.
Yep.

2098
02:05:04,900 --> 02:05:08,100
Right, I think that and I think
that's one of the things that's

2099
02:05:08,100 --> 02:05:11,800
promised to us and it's
definitely a sense that you get

2100
02:05:11,800 --> 02:05:14,600
from Joseph.
A lot of times is I had my

2101
02:05:14,600 --> 02:05:18,900
experience with God and you can
too, this is what we got to do,

2102
02:05:18,900 --> 02:05:21,400
right?
And so, yeah, if we're not

2103
02:05:21,400 --> 02:05:24,500
having those, I don't think
we're doing Mormonism, quite,

2104
02:05:24,500 --> 02:05:25,700
right?
I'm not saying it's going to be

2105
02:05:25,700 --> 02:05:28,100
that kind of spiritual high all
the time.

2106
02:05:28,400 --> 02:05:31,100
But we should certainly be
living in such a way that we can

2107
02:05:31,100 --> 02:05:35,000
expect those kind of blessings.
Yeah.

2108
02:05:36,200 --> 02:05:41,500
So there are statements that
indicate are all Ds L privately,

2109
02:05:41,500 --> 02:05:43,400
new.
We talked about some of the

2110
02:05:43,400 --> 02:05:47,500
members telling leaders but
there's other statements by like

2111
02:05:47,500 --> 02:05:51,700
Joseph, the third privately
acknowledging that he knew that

2112
02:05:51,700 --> 02:05:58,800
plural marriage started with his
father, in a letter to William

2113
02:05:58,800 --> 02:06:03,800
Smith.
He said he wrote this and now

2114
02:06:03,800 --> 02:06:07,900
the check this quote out, I have
long been engaged in removing

2115
02:06:07,900 --> 02:06:11,500
from Father's memory and from
the early church, the stigma and

2116
02:06:11,500 --> 02:06:15,100
blame thrown upon them because
of polygamy and I have at last

2117
02:06:15,100 --> 02:06:17,600
lived to see the cloud rapidly
lifting.

2118
02:06:17,900 --> 02:06:21,700
And I would not consent to see a
blame attached by a blender now.

2119
02:06:22,000 --> 02:06:25,700
Therefore, my Uncle Bear in mind
or standing today, before the

2120
02:06:25,700 --> 02:06:29,900
world as Defenders of Mormonism,
free from polygamy and go ahead

2121
02:06:29,900 --> 02:06:32,900
with your personal ins of Joseph
and Hyrum.

2122
02:06:33,100 --> 02:06:36,600
So he's saying, I've worked
really hard to get rid of the

2123
02:06:37,600 --> 02:06:41,400
stain of polygamy from off of my
father's name and I will not

2124
02:06:41,400 --> 02:06:43,900
consent to a blender now, uncle
William.

2125
02:06:44,100 --> 02:06:50,200
So he privately, acknowledged it
and there are other, you know.

2126
02:06:50,200 --> 02:06:52,700
Jason Briggs is another Arnold.
Yes.

2127
02:06:52,700 --> 02:06:58,300
Leader he got to hear.
He got to hear John Diehl.

2128
02:06:58,300 --> 02:07:01,200
He's kind of confessions when
either he heard.

2129
02:07:01,900 --> 02:07:05,300
In person or he got a copy after
they'd been written, where John

2130
02:07:05,300 --> 02:07:08,600
Bailey is pissed off at Brigham,
but he's still saying that.

2131
02:07:08,700 --> 02:07:11,200
I know that polygamy started
with Joe Schmidt.

2132
02:07:11,300 --> 02:07:14,000
I learned about how to, in
Joseph, Smith's lifetime, from

2133
02:07:14,000 --> 02:07:18,900
Joseph Smith itself and so Jason
Briggs writes, dear brothers.

2134
02:07:18,900 --> 02:07:20,700
How do you like hearing the
statement of lead?

2135
02:07:20,700 --> 02:07:23,700
The danites and polygamy.
Our institutions of the first

2136
02:07:23,700 --> 02:07:26,900
Joseph, the Martyr and view, the
accumulating evidence of human

2137
02:07:26,900 --> 02:07:29,600
infirmity attaching to the
choice here as well as all other

2138
02:07:29,600 --> 02:07:32,900
Sears it isn't, is it?
Not Folly to attempt to

2139
02:07:32,900 --> 02:07:37,200
reinstate the defunct notion of
infallibility of prophets, Etc.

2140
02:07:37,400 --> 02:07:39,800
So, you know, he's
acknowledging.

2141
02:07:40,100 --> 02:07:43,700
Yeah, I think that there's some
pretty compelling evidence and

2142
02:07:43,700 --> 02:07:47,800
similarly David Whitmer, who,
again did join our earliest

2143
02:07:47,800 --> 02:07:49,700
church.
He was actually his own

2144
02:07:49,700 --> 02:07:53,400
independent, you start, you
know, he's just stuck as an

2145
02:07:53,400 --> 02:07:58,900
independent kind of witness and
the Book of Mormon and was kind

2146
02:07:58,900 --> 02:08:03,000
of skeptical and antagonistic.
Stick to the later teachings of

2147
02:08:03,000 --> 02:08:06,600
Joseph Smith, Beyond The Book of
Mormon, but he wrote this in

2148
02:08:06,600 --> 02:08:10,600
1887, I now have as much
evidence to believe that Brother

2149
02:08:10,600 --> 02:08:13,700
Joseph received the Revelation
on polygamy and gave it to the

2150
02:08:13,700 --> 02:08:16,100
church.
As I have to believe that such a

2151
02:08:16,108 --> 02:08:18,300
man as George Washington ever
lived.

2152
02:08:18,500 --> 02:08:22,300
I never saw George Washington
but from reliable testimony.

2153
02:08:22,400 --> 02:08:27,200
I believe that he did Lent so he
says, I am as certain as the

2154
02:08:27,200 --> 02:08:30,900
Joseph Smith did polygamy as
George Washington lived.

2155
02:08:31,600 --> 02:08:35,200
And he actually he says, if you
accept the Doctrine and

2156
02:08:35,200 --> 02:08:39,500
Covenants the Doctrine and
Covenants promises says that you

2157
02:08:39,500 --> 02:08:42,700
are need to receive the word of
God through Joseph Smith.

2158
02:08:43,100 --> 02:08:45,500
And so he says, if you accept
the doctor and Covenants, you

2159
02:08:45,500 --> 02:08:49,600
have to accept that the plural
marriage Revelation that he

2160
02:08:49,600 --> 02:08:54,500
received is what he said.
So, David Whitmer is against the

2161
02:08:54,500 --> 02:08:55,900
doctor and come this by that
time.

2162
02:08:55,900 --> 02:08:59,000
But he makes a good point that,
you know, pointing out the verse

2163
02:08:59,000 --> 02:09:01,100
in the DNC about how the word of
God is going to.

2164
02:09:01,200 --> 02:09:04,500
Come to the church through
Joseph on further matters of

2165
02:09:04,500 --> 02:09:08,100
Doctrine.
So, you know, it's just

2166
02:09:08,400 --> 02:09:12,200
overwhelming.
So the last issue that we need

2167
02:09:12,200 --> 02:09:16,800
to touch on is the denials
purple, probably touch a little

2168
02:09:16,800 --> 02:09:21,600
bit on the history and getting
into the denials, but Joseph and

2169
02:09:21,600 --> 02:09:24,700
higher made some very strong
denials.

2170
02:09:25,000 --> 02:09:28,600
Do you plural marriage?
Well, telling people not to

2171
02:09:28,600 --> 02:09:34,000
practice it and so hiring.
For example said, I wish the

2172
02:09:34,000 --> 02:09:37,000
Elders of Israel to understand
that is lawful for a man to

2173
02:09:37,000 --> 02:09:39,000
marry his wife.
It is unlawful to have more and

2174
02:09:39,000 --> 02:09:41,400
God is Not commanded anyone to
have more.

2175
02:09:41,600 --> 02:09:44,200
If any of you dare to presume to
do such a thing, it will spoil

2176
02:09:44,200 --> 02:09:46,600
your fun for you will, never
preach the gospel.

2177
02:09:46,900 --> 02:09:49,200
This is the same sternum where
he announces Eternal Marriage

2178
02:09:49,200 --> 02:09:52,100
and eternal polygamy.
So, I consider this the

2179
02:09:52,100 --> 02:09:55,800
polygamy, deniers dilemma,
because I really like this part

2180
02:09:55,800 --> 02:09:57,600
of the sermon.
They don't like the Eternal

2181
02:09:57,600 --> 02:09:59,500
Marriage and eternal poignant
part.

2182
02:09:59,600 --> 02:10:03,500
But as a Historian, I have to
accept the whole sermon and I

2183
02:10:03,500 --> 02:10:05,300
have to account for the whole
sermon.

2184
02:10:05,700 --> 02:10:09,600
So he says, I despise a man who
will teach a pack of stood up

2185
02:10:09,600 --> 02:10:12,700
that will disgrace himself.
So, for a man to go into the

2186
02:10:12,708 --> 02:10:14,600
world and talk at the spiritual
life system.

2187
02:10:14,600 --> 02:10:17,400
Analysis, empty is an open
Sepulchre at the code suits.

2188
02:10:17,400 --> 02:10:22,200
Anyone lend put it on, let it,
let him put it into, I would

2189
02:10:22,200 --> 02:10:23,700
call the devil my brother
before.

2190
02:10:23,700 --> 02:10:27,800
Such a man, I believe if a man
has one wife in this life, I

2191
02:10:27,800 --> 02:10:31,100
know if he I had to, I should
not know what to do.

2192
02:10:31,300 --> 02:10:33,500
Might quarrel about me and I
might get whipping.

2193
02:10:33,500 --> 02:10:37,100
One is not warn, all of you, not
to attempt it, the man should

2194
02:10:37,100 --> 02:10:40,300
begin to find out.
You would you would end up in

2195
02:10:40,300 --> 02:10:44,200
some cell and Alton, get the
wife that God and your country.

2196
02:10:44,200 --> 02:10:47,700
We gave you let you have if any
brother hears any person preach

2197
02:10:47,700 --> 02:10:51,200
such stuff ring his nose.
Look out where he might be

2198
02:10:51,200 --> 02:10:54,700
stouter than you know man would
have more than one wife or they

2199
02:10:54,700 --> 02:10:57,500
will beat him and if I was a
woman and got so full, I would

2200
02:10:57,500 --> 02:11:01,000
hide it as head, I give the
sister sleep to ring.

2201
02:11:01,200 --> 02:11:05,500
His nose who teaches such stuff
so that they say that's not a

2202
02:11:05,500 --> 02:11:09,400
carefully worded denial, that
is, you know, he's either being

2203
02:11:09,400 --> 02:11:13,700
a blatant, hypocrite or command
a complete liar, or he's telling

2204
02:11:13,700 --> 02:11:17,600
the truth is what their
perspective on that quotas.

2205
02:11:19,500 --> 02:11:24,900
My perspective on this quote is
the need for proper

2206
02:11:24,900 --> 02:11:28,100
authorization to enter into
plural marriage because they did

2207
02:11:28,100 --> 02:11:32,000
not want to see it abused.
And they were horrified at what

2208
02:11:32,000 --> 02:11:35,200
John C Bennett was doing with
his whoredoms where they were

2209
02:11:35,200 --> 02:11:39,100
sleeping around with women
taking away virtue, married and

2210
02:11:39,100 --> 02:11:43,000
unmarried women, you know, just,
you know, de bought a pack of

2211
02:11:43,000 --> 02:11:47,000
debauchery and that's
unfortunately what plural

2212
02:11:47,000 --> 02:11:51,400
marriage can be abused in.
And that is why Brigham Young

2213
02:11:51,400 --> 02:11:56,200
said, the abuse of that
principle will send thousands to

2214
02:11:56,200 --> 02:11:58,400
hell.
You know, that there are people

2215
02:11:58,400 --> 02:12:03,200
who are going to turn around an
absolutely abuse and misuse the

2216
02:12:03,200 --> 02:12:08,100
principle of plural marriage.
And so, my opinion is, the only

2217
02:12:08,100 --> 02:12:11,500
people who are the only person
who is authorized in Joseph,

2218
02:12:11,500 --> 02:12:15,300
Smith's lifetime, to introduce
people to polygamy.

2219
02:12:15,700 --> 02:12:19,300
Was people that Joseph,
authorized, it was only to be He

2220
02:12:19,300 --> 02:12:23,500
taught by Joseph's consent.
And Joseph would occasionally

2221
02:12:23,700 --> 02:12:25,700
authorize other people to cheat
you as well.

2222
02:12:25,700 --> 02:12:28,900
You know like we have been drift
Johnson says Joseph told him to

2223
02:12:28,900 --> 02:12:32,000
teach it to his sister so that
she you know that so that she

2224
02:12:32,000 --> 02:12:36,400
can know it and Joseph get
proposed to her to pro-marriage

2225
02:12:36,400 --> 02:12:38,800
to her.
And obviously Brigham was

2226
02:12:38,800 --> 02:12:42,300
somebody who was also one of the
early dogs and plural marriage,

2227
02:12:42,300 --> 02:12:45,700
and he was one of the few people
that Joseph authorized to

2228
02:12:45,700 --> 02:12:48,300
perform all the different Temple
ordinances.

2229
02:12:48,300 --> 02:12:51,900
So There are certain people that
Joseph did authorize but

2230
02:12:51,900 --> 02:12:55,000
generally to the elders in
general, that this was something

2231
02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:57,600
that was not to be passed out
lightly.

2232
02:12:57,800 --> 02:13:01,000
And it was only to come through
the legitimate channel of the

2233
02:13:01,000 --> 02:13:03,600
priesthood.
And there are two principles

2234
02:13:04,000 --> 02:13:07,900
that touched upon this.
One of them is in the endowment.

2235
02:13:08,000 --> 02:13:10,700
There's a cup of the Covenant of
Chastity revealed in the

2236
02:13:10,700 --> 02:13:14,900
endowment, which Brigham Young
publicly taught said in one of

2237
02:13:14,900 --> 02:13:16,400
the Journal of discourses
sermons.

2238
02:13:17,100 --> 02:13:20,200
So I'm not afraid to quote it, I
will Will not, you know, that

2239
02:13:20,200 --> 02:13:23,900
you are not to touch a daughter
of Adam unless given to you by

2240
02:13:23,900 --> 02:13:28,500
the Lord and that Covenant goes
back to Joseph Smith, you know,

2241
02:13:28,500 --> 02:13:32,500
and and and John C Bennett and
his Expos�� of the Holy order,

2242
02:13:32,500 --> 02:13:34,900
mentions that Covenant, almost
word for word.

2243
02:13:35,400 --> 02:13:41,700
And and says that Joseph was
regulating the marital practices

2244
02:13:41,700 --> 02:13:44,100
of those who entered into his
Society.

2245
02:13:44,400 --> 02:13:50,200
So everyone who and who got
endowed, made that Covenant And

2246
02:13:50,600 --> 02:13:54,000
receiving it from the Lord was
understood and Joseph Smith's.

2247
02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:57,100
Life time was that you needed to
receive it from the Lord through

2248
02:13:57,100 --> 02:14:01,100
Joseph Smith, as the authorized
agent, to introduce the pretty,

2249
02:14:01,200 --> 02:14:05,100
to keep this principle from
being misused and abused.

2250
02:14:05,400 --> 02:14:08,300
And so in every order of
priesthood there was a

2251
02:14:08,300 --> 02:14:10,900
government that Joseph
established and the erotic

2252
02:14:10,900 --> 02:14:14,900
priesthood, there is a presiding
Bishop who presides over the

2253
02:14:14,900 --> 02:14:17,600
ironic priesthood.
In the middle Kazakh priesthood

2254
02:14:17,600 --> 02:14:22,000
in the church, there was The,
you know, the presiding high

2255
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:25,900
priest, the who stands as the
president of the priesthood,

2256
02:14:25,900 --> 02:14:30,000
prison of the church and in the
fullness of the Presa, that

2257
02:14:30,000 --> 02:14:32,100
Joseph Smith began to introduce
an Abu of Kings.

2258
02:14:32,100 --> 02:14:35,300
And Priests there was a
presiding keyholder that Joseph.

2259
02:14:35,300 --> 02:14:38,400
Introducing Joseph was the
person who presided in those

2260
02:14:38,400 --> 02:14:41,900
keys and so chose of confirmed,
the keys on others, but they

2261
02:14:41,900 --> 02:14:46,700
were to exercise them in Union
with Joseph Smith right now that

2262
02:14:46,700 --> 02:14:51,300
that was the the channel of She
was was through Joseph Smith.

2263
02:14:51,900 --> 02:14:57,200
And so it's in that context that
you get the denials like the

2264
02:14:57,200 --> 02:15:01,100
most famous one, they cite this
as an example of a change to the

2265
02:15:01,100 --> 02:15:05,600
history of the church Thursday,
October 5th. 1843 at home,

2266
02:15:05,600 --> 02:15:08,400
locked up down the street with
my scribe and gave instruction

2267
02:15:08,400 --> 02:15:12,400
to try those who are preaching
teaching or practicing

2268
02:15:12,400 --> 02:15:14,800
practicing is crossed out the
doctrine of the plurality of

2269
02:15:14,800 --> 02:15:17,600
wives on this La, Joseph,
forbids, it and the practice,

2270
02:15:17,600 --> 02:15:21,800
they're of no man shall I'll
have, but one wife and so that's

2271
02:15:22,100 --> 02:15:25,200
statement that people really
like to quote and say the

2272
02:15:25,200 --> 02:15:28,800
apostles, totally changed this
in the history.

2273
02:15:29,200 --> 02:15:32,400
And, you know, they try to say
it's evidence of Joseph's

2274
02:15:32,400 --> 02:15:35,500
Journal being altered, but they
did not alter the original entry

2275
02:15:35,500 --> 02:15:38,100
in Joseph's Journal.
We still have the original

2276
02:15:38,100 --> 02:15:42,200
entry, they edit it, and it and
expanded it for publication, so

2277
02:15:42,200 --> 02:15:46,300
that people would understand the
principles behind Joseph Smith

2278
02:15:46,300 --> 02:15:48,300
saying what he did on that
casian.

2279
02:15:48,600 --> 02:15:52,000
So in the History, they expanded
it to say evening at home and

2280
02:15:52,000 --> 02:15:54,100
walked up and down the street
with my scribe.

2281
02:15:54,100 --> 02:15:57,100
Gave instruction to try those
purchases persons who were

2282
02:15:57,100 --> 02:16:00,200
preaching teaching or practicing
the doctor of the plurality of

2283
02:16:00,200 --> 02:16:05,400
wives for on this law.
For according to the law, I hold

2284
02:16:05,400 --> 02:16:07,700
the keys of this power in the
last days for there's never

2285
02:16:07,700 --> 02:16:09,900
bought one on the earth and time
on whom this power and it's keys

2286
02:16:09,900 --> 02:16:12,100
are conferred.
And I have constantly said that

2287
02:16:12,100 --> 02:16:15,500
a man, Shawn but one wife at a
time unless the Lord directs

2288
02:16:15,500 --> 02:16:19,000
otherwise and this entry and the
history was written in.

2289
02:16:19,000 --> 02:16:24,700
I think about 1857 by George A
Smith and Wilford Woodruff and

2290
02:16:24,700 --> 02:16:28,300
that was just harmonizing that
entry and explaining it.

2291
02:16:28,300 --> 02:16:31,300
According to what they had
personally been taught about

2292
02:16:31,300 --> 02:16:35,200
plural marriage by Joseph Smith.
George A Smith recalled.

2293
02:16:35,200 --> 02:16:39,400
That Joseph Smith quoted, Jacob,
232 and said that God has

2294
02:16:39,400 --> 02:16:43,200
commanded us.
So, you know, Joe the it wasn't

2295
02:16:43,200 --> 02:16:46,500
Brigham Young.
Who reinterpreted, Jacob 2:30 or

2296
02:16:47,000 --> 02:16:49,100
came up with the polygamy,
interpretation of it.

2297
02:16:49,299 --> 02:16:53,900
Joseph Smith was the one who did
it and, you know, even William

2298
02:16:53,900 --> 02:16:57,500
law said that that as a not
unbiased witness who didn't like

2299
02:16:57,500 --> 02:16:59,500
pulling me admitted.
I remembered there, is this

2300
02:16:59,500 --> 02:17:02,299
verse in the Book of Mormon that
seemed to authorize it, if God

2301
02:17:02,299 --> 02:17:06,799
told you to do it, This is what
William la la recalled.

2302
02:17:07,100 --> 02:17:10,200
He said he says even in the Book
of Mormon Joseph was conspiring

2303
02:17:10,200 --> 02:17:12,900
to later.
Do polygamy, 13 years later.

2304
02:17:15,600 --> 02:17:20,799
I know what William Lawson and
so you know who and under

2305
02:17:20,799 --> 02:17:25,400
Brigham Young also there was the
strict need to have it received

2306
02:17:25,400 --> 02:17:31,200
through proper Authority and
this understanding that, you

2307
02:17:31,200 --> 02:17:35,500
know, that Joseph Smith was the
The designing keyholder, the

2308
02:17:35,500 --> 02:17:37,200
presiding King and priest, or
what?

2309
02:17:37,200 --> 02:17:39,299
We would call it, they call it
the prophet priest.

2310
02:17:39,299 --> 02:17:41,900
And King was the office that
Joseph held and what later,

2311
02:17:41,900 --> 02:17:44,100
Brigham Young and John Taylor
held.

2312
02:17:44,600 --> 02:17:48,200
And so they acted in that
capacity to basically regulate

2313
02:17:48,200 --> 02:17:51,799
and to Pratt try to prevent
abuses of plural marriage.

2314
02:17:51,799 --> 02:17:55,200
And unfortunately right after
Joseph died, William Smith and

2315
02:17:55,200 --> 02:17:58,400
George Jay Adams were abusing
plural, marriage.

2316
02:17:58,600 --> 02:18:01,900
In the East, they were doing the
exact same stuff jhansi Bennett

2317
02:18:01,900 --> 02:18:05,799
was doing where they were Around
marriage or no marriage under

2318
02:18:05,799 --> 02:18:10,900
the guise of it was it was a
mess and Brigham.

2319
02:18:10,900 --> 02:18:13,799
Young initially told William
Smith to stay back East because

2320
02:18:13,799 --> 02:18:16,600
we don't want you to get killed
like your brothers were, you

2321
02:18:16,600 --> 02:18:20,799
know, that just shows the
Carthage conspiracy nonsense to

2322
02:18:20,799 --> 02:18:23,200
be nonsense because otherwise
we're going to be like come back

2323
02:18:23,200 --> 02:18:29,799
here, you know, so that we can
better but it's a back East so

2324
02:18:29,799 --> 02:18:34,299
you can be safe, you know.
But But when they found out what

2325
02:18:34,299 --> 02:18:37,100
William Smith and John and
George Jay Adams were doing,

2326
02:18:37,100 --> 02:18:39,500
they called them back to Naboo
to try to keep them under

2327
02:18:39,500 --> 02:18:43,500
control and Brigham Young, you
know, basically told George Jay

2328
02:18:43,500 --> 02:18:47,500
Adams, you know, you got to
repent and he will forgive you.

2329
02:18:47,500 --> 02:18:50,799
If you make a public confession
that you were embezzling money

2330
02:18:51,299 --> 02:18:56,100
and committing unchaste, you're
being unchaste in the East and

2331
02:18:56,500 --> 02:18:59,100
your jams.
Like okay, I agree and Graham

2332
02:18:59,100 --> 02:19:02,299
Young's like a confession.
Never did a man, any harm if he

2333
02:19:02,299 --> 02:19:06,200
was sincere about You know,
there's the confession never did

2334
02:19:06,200 --> 02:19:09,600
somebody any harm if he was
sincere bright, but instead of

2335
02:19:09,600 --> 02:19:14,400
confessing George, Jay Adams,
ran out of town and basically,

2336
02:19:14,400 --> 02:19:17,000
started attacking Brigham.
Young started slandering,

2337
02:19:17,000 --> 02:19:19,500
Brigham Young.
And he actually goes back to

2338
02:19:19,500 --> 02:19:23,100
Boston.
And he actually accuses, Brigham

2339
02:19:23,100 --> 02:19:26,900
Young of adultery in Nauvoo
because you Brigham Young was

2340
02:19:26,900 --> 02:19:30,000
doing polygamy.
And so what the freaking

2341
02:19:30,000 --> 02:19:33,100
hypocrite to attack him, Brigham
Young's will.

2342
02:19:33,200 --> 02:19:35,299
And to show you mercy and
forgiveness.

2343
02:19:35,299 --> 02:19:38,799
If you'll repent and you go and
try to get him in trouble with

2344
02:19:38,799 --> 02:19:40,600
the law.
Yeah.

2345
02:19:42,299 --> 02:19:46,799
So, and William Smith, you know,
they tried to be careful with

2346
02:19:46,799 --> 02:19:51,600
him, but, you know, he ended up,
you know, throwing out with

2347
02:19:51,600 --> 02:19:53,500
Brigham Young.
He tried to take over the church

2348
02:19:53,500 --> 02:19:57,500
and got, you know, you got, you
know, that they ended up having

2349
02:19:57,500 --> 02:20:01,300
a Schism and the apostles,
frankly, we're glad to have

2350
02:20:01,300 --> 02:20:03,900
William Smith out of the way
because William Smith Scoundrel.

2351
02:20:03,900 --> 02:20:08,600
He was not a man of integrity,
you know, he, he got, how many

2352
02:20:08,600 --> 02:20:12,000
people got in fistfights with
Joseph, you know, you know,

2353
02:20:12,400 --> 02:20:15,700
where he got to the point where
he almost killed Joseph in the

2354
02:20:15,700 --> 02:20:19,800
Kirtland Temple, you know, and
he was actually even involved

2355
02:20:19,800 --> 02:20:23,600
involved with jhansi Bennett's,
whoredoms, and Joseph tried to

2356
02:20:23,608 --> 02:20:27,100
cover for his brother, and tried
to get him to repent, but he

2357
02:20:27,100 --> 02:20:30,600
apparently just kept doing it
even after Joseph, showed him

2358
02:20:30,600 --> 02:20:34,300
mercy and Brigham Young also.
I showed him mercy.

2359
02:20:35,700 --> 02:20:39,300
So William Smith was a scoundrel
and parley Pratt kind of

2360
02:20:39,300 --> 02:20:44,400
commented that, you know, I
could not he's like you might

2361
02:20:44,400 --> 02:20:46,900
have William Smith back in
Nauvoo and you might be you

2362
02:20:46,908 --> 02:20:49,600
know, people might be trying to
make amends but after learning

2363
02:20:49,600 --> 02:20:53,200
all the details of what he has
done and out here in the Eastern

2364
02:20:53,200 --> 02:20:57,100
churches, I cannot sustain him
as an apostle anymore after what

2365
02:20:57,100 --> 02:21:00,700
he has done to insult and
Destroy families, with, with the

2366
02:21:00,700 --> 02:21:04,800
conduct that he had been doing.
And so The apostles were kind of

2367
02:21:04,808 --> 02:21:07,400
glad to be done with William
because he unfortunately

2368
02:21:07,400 --> 02:21:11,100
unfortunately even though he was
the prophets brother was not a

2369
02:21:11,100 --> 02:21:15,700
man of integrity.
And so what's interesting is

2370
02:21:15,700 --> 02:21:18,400
some of these statements,
basically saying that there's

2371
02:21:18,500 --> 02:21:23,400
one person who presides over the
priesthood of Elijah come out in

2372
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:27,800
response to William Smith and
George Jay Adams immorality,

2373
02:21:27,800 --> 02:21:30,400
where you have parley, Pratt and
Morris and Pratt.

2374
02:21:30,400 --> 02:21:34,700
Both writing statements were ill
teaching this Doctrine and or

2375
02:21:34,700 --> 02:21:37,200
suppressing all stealing
covenants and Promises, which

2376
02:21:37,200 --> 02:21:39,800
may have been entered into in
any of the Saints in the East

2377
02:21:39,800 --> 02:21:42,000
and relation.
Eternal Union independent of the

2378
02:21:42,000 --> 02:21:45,400
sanction, and approbation of
him, who holds the keys that the

2379
02:21:45,400 --> 02:21:48,400
ceiling Powers conferred by
Elijah are null and void being

2380
02:21:48,400 --> 02:21:51,400
made in righteousness and in
direct opposition to the order

2381
02:21:51,400 --> 02:21:53,900
of the kingdom of God.
If a husband and wife wish to

2382
02:21:53,908 --> 02:21:56,600
enjoy each other's Society in
the world to come, let all their

2383
02:21:56,600 --> 02:22:00,400
covenants and Promises be made
at a proper time in the proper

2384
02:22:00,400 --> 02:22:02,900
place and under the sanction and
approbation.

2385
02:22:03,300 --> 02:22:05,900
The one holding the legal
Authority and keys of this

2386
02:22:05,900 --> 02:22:09,200
sacred sacred thing that was
published in the times and

2387
02:22:09,200 --> 02:22:16,100
Seasons the August 1845 issue.
So this one this is to protect

2388
02:22:16,100 --> 02:22:19,300
the sacred principle of plural
marriage and that was the

2389
02:22:19,300 --> 02:22:21,800
purpose of this.
And you know they had to

2390
02:22:21,808 --> 02:22:25,800
struggle with it on the Trek
West where you know they're

2391
02:22:25,800 --> 02:22:28,900
trying to keep it under wraps
wraps and you see Brigham Young

2392
02:22:28,900 --> 02:22:32,800
and Heber C Kimball making
almost as strong statements.

2393
02:22:33,200 --> 02:22:38,500
As as you see, Joseph and Hyrum
in Nauvoo, like Heber C, Kimball

2394
02:22:38,500 --> 02:22:42,300
says I would rather have my head
severed from my, you know, my

2395
02:22:42,300 --> 02:22:45,900
head severed, then to do what
some of these Elders had been

2396
02:22:45,900 --> 02:22:50,800
doing and he says, you know, it
is a that he says, it's a great,

2397
02:22:50,800 --> 02:22:52,600
it's a disgrace, it's been
practice.

2398
02:22:52,600 --> 02:22:55,200
I would rather have my head
brought to the book to the

2399
02:22:55,200 --> 02:22:58,500
block, then do those things and
they talked about kind of the

2400
02:22:58,500 --> 02:23:02,800
proper order that Joseph Smith
introduced, he said, if I want

2401
02:23:02,800 --> 02:23:05,800
to watch And brother Paul super
or I have a daughter you can't

2402
02:23:05,800 --> 02:23:09,000
go and make overtures to her.
You must first you must first

2403
02:23:09,000 --> 02:23:11,900
ask the one who holds the keys
if I have a right to get a wife

2404
02:23:12,000 --> 02:23:14,200
and if you can get a wife then
he has no right?

2405
02:23:14,200 --> 02:23:16,700
Still to go to the daughter, but
to her father.

2406
02:23:16,900 --> 02:23:19,700
And if he permits, then he can
ask.

2407
02:23:19,800 --> 02:23:24,000
And so that's another statement
at winter quarters and then

2408
02:23:24,000 --> 02:23:28,500
Brigham Young commenting on.
WWE Phelps made a mistake of

2409
02:23:28,500 --> 02:23:31,800
taking marrying, some wives
without authorization from

2410
02:23:31,800 --> 02:23:34,900
Brigham because he He's
traveling with them and Brigham.

2411
02:23:34,900 --> 02:23:37,300
Young says, I am.
Sorry, plenty, sorry, it is

2412
02:23:37,300 --> 02:23:40,200
done, but you've been living in
adultery with them is impossible

2413
02:23:40,200 --> 02:23:42,800
for any man in the priesthood
down the second one, but unless

2414
02:23:42,800 --> 02:23:45,100
given to him by the consent of
the man who holds the keys to

2415
02:23:45,108 --> 02:23:47,900
the sealing power, then he has
the privilege of taking a woman

2416
02:23:47,900 --> 02:23:51,600
if there is nothing in the way.
Are you operating in the Gentile

2417
02:23:51,600 --> 02:23:54,500
world to get more wives know?
It is by the celestial while you

2418
02:23:54,500 --> 02:23:56,900
are to get wives?
Well, now go get them according

2419
02:23:56,900 --> 02:23:59,400
to the order of that law.
If you are in your father's

2420
02:23:59,400 --> 02:24:01,600
Palace, you can actually says to
his children.

2421
02:24:01,800 --> 02:24:04,500
You must not touch them.
When he's proven faithful, the

2422
02:24:04,500 --> 02:24:06,700
father says my son here's a
jewel.

2423
02:24:06,700 --> 02:24:09,800
Take her into your bosom and
when he sees him faithful and to

2424
02:24:09,800 --> 02:24:12,300
govern that one, then he can
give him another.

2425
02:24:12,700 --> 02:24:15,500
He says these girls are no more
yours than mine and I ever he

2426
02:24:15,500 --> 02:24:17,400
says I have a right to sleep
with them as much as you and it

2427
02:24:17,400 --> 02:24:19,900
would be just as right?
I'd rather have my right arm cut

2428
02:24:19,900 --> 02:24:21,900
off.
Joseph, never allowed the 12,

2429
02:24:21,900 --> 02:24:24,300
nor any man to marry a girl on a
mission.

2430
02:24:24,400 --> 02:24:27,100
We brought girls home after a
two years mission to England,

2431
02:24:27,300 --> 02:24:29,900
but we never touched them.
We paid their passage?

2432
02:24:30,300 --> 02:24:32,500
Did we flirt with them or put
our arms around them?

2433
02:24:32,600 --> 02:24:34,300
No.
We did not touch them.

2434
02:24:34,400 --> 02:24:36,500
They married others, such as
Samuel.

2435
02:24:36,500 --> 02:24:39,300
Here's here's woolies, wife.
And he said, sister Augusta

2436
02:24:39,300 --> 02:24:42,400
Cobbs was given to me by
Revelation from Joseph, but I

2437
02:24:42,400 --> 02:24:46,000
never did anything until long
after the ceremony was performed

2438
02:24:46,100 --> 02:24:49,400
proper and all made, right?
If Brother Phelps had told us he

2439
02:24:49,400 --> 02:24:51,800
was going to bring a girl, I
would have given her to him and

2440
02:24:51,800 --> 02:24:54,200
glad to do it.
But now it will be blazed all

2441
02:24:54,200 --> 02:24:57,100
over the country and you can't
prevent the Elders of Israel

2442
02:24:57,200 --> 02:25:01,000
from running into whoredoms.
And so, basically, it was a

2443
02:25:01,008 --> 02:25:05,800
misunderstanding by WWF else.
And Brigham shows and mercy and

2444
02:25:05,800 --> 02:25:10,100
re-baptize has him and and and
reordain Sim and performs the

2445
02:25:10,100 --> 02:25:12,100
ceilings.
But, you know, he says the

2446
02:25:12,100 --> 02:25:15,900
concern was about this getting
out of control and being abused

2447
02:25:15,900 --> 02:25:19,800
by people who don't know how to
do it the right way or wouldn't

2448
02:25:19,800 --> 02:25:22,800
do it the right way, is the
context of it.

2449
02:25:23,100 --> 02:25:26,700
And so, another thing that I
think is significant in early.

2450
02:25:26,700 --> 02:25:31,700
Utah is that Brigham Young when
men in early, Utah were willing

2451
02:25:31,700 --> 02:25:34,400
to marry wives.
There was A Zeal almost in the

2452
02:25:34,408 --> 02:25:37,300
Reformation for people to enter
into polygamy.

2453
02:25:37,500 --> 02:25:40,800
There was like this you know
that everyone was wanting to

2454
02:25:40,800 --> 02:25:42,900
get, you know, to practice
plural marriage.

2455
02:25:43,200 --> 02:25:46,600
And one thing that Brigham Young
did that isn't given enough

2456
02:25:46,600 --> 02:25:50,300
credit in my opinion is that he
uses his control over the

2457
02:25:50,300 --> 02:25:54,600
sealing power to try to avoid
abuses in plural, marriages of

2458
02:25:54,600 --> 02:25:59,600
men, trying to marry underage
girls that would not be proper

2459
02:25:59,600 --> 02:26:04,400
that were not mature enough to
get married and so Brigham Young

2460
02:26:04,400 --> 02:26:08,300
made a comment to one person
saying you're now in relation to

2461
02:26:08,300 --> 02:26:10,600
having a young woman sealed to
you, I just received I'm willing

2462
02:26:10,600 --> 02:26:13,500
to seal a woman to you but it
strikes me that this one is

2463
02:26:13,500 --> 02:26:16,300
rather young still, if you think
not and always agree, we'll

2464
02:26:16,300 --> 02:26:19,600
bring her along and I will if I
think it was De Mi will sealer

2465
02:26:19,600 --> 02:26:21,500
to you.
So some of these marriages in

2466
02:26:21,500 --> 02:26:27,400
early Utah, were basically
caretaker situation where there

2467
02:26:27,400 --> 02:26:31,900
were ceilings for young women,
that were young teenagers, but

2468
02:26:31,900 --> 02:26:34,400
with the understanding that the
They wouldn't live as husband

2469
02:26:34,400 --> 02:26:37,800
and wife until they're older and
more mature and something that

2470
02:26:37,800 --> 02:26:41,600
did occur.
But in this case, he's saying,

2471
02:26:41,600 --> 02:26:44,800
I'm not sure if this won't, she
seems rather young, you know,

2472
02:26:45,100 --> 02:26:47,700
right?
Give me more details and if I

2473
02:26:47,700 --> 02:26:50,300
think it's wisdom, then I might
see her to her.

2474
02:26:50,400 --> 02:26:54,300
He did end up doing the ceiling
and then another statement.

2475
02:26:54,300 --> 02:26:58,500
Brigham Young said, he said, I
shall not steal people as has

2476
02:26:58,500 --> 02:27:01,100
been done old.
Father, already brought three

2477
02:27:01,100 --> 02:27:04,800
young girls 12 and 13 years old.
I would not steal them to him.

2478
02:27:04,800 --> 02:27:06,900
They would not be equally yoked
together.

2479
02:27:07,100 --> 02:27:10,900
So Brigham Young used, his
authority, presiding over plural

2480
02:27:10,900 --> 02:27:15,300
marriage, to try to, to try to
prevent people from abusing the

2481
02:27:15,300 --> 02:27:18,000
principal and marrying.
You know, underage girl.

2482
02:27:18,000 --> 02:27:20,700
Try to prevent a Warren Jeffs,
kind of situation.

2483
02:27:22,200 --> 02:27:24,600
Yeah, exactly.
So, you know something a lot of

2484
02:27:24,608 --> 02:27:28,000
people talking about how that
one man Doctrine can be abused

2485
02:27:28,000 --> 02:27:32,400
and absolutely can.
But there's also, there can be a

2486
02:27:32,400 --> 02:27:36,900
benefit to having a government
of the priesthood that regulates

2487
02:27:36,900 --> 02:27:40,400
and protects from abuses.
And so that's where the balance

2488
02:27:40,400 --> 02:27:44,100
comes in, in my opinion because
Brigham Young taught that he was

2489
02:27:44,100 --> 02:27:47,700
the presiding keyholder.
But he also said, don't ever lie

2490
02:27:47,700 --> 02:27:50,400
and lie?
Follow me he said you need to

2491
02:27:50,500 --> 02:27:53,000
have your testimony for Self
from the Lord.

2492
02:27:53,100 --> 02:27:56,800
And if everyone leaned up, if
you're if you lean on me you're

2493
02:27:56,800 --> 02:27:58,700
not going to end up in the
Celestial Kingdom.

2494
02:27:58,700 --> 02:28:01,300
He says, you got to be
independent and have the true

2495
02:28:01,300 --> 02:28:03,700
independence of Heaven for
yourself.

2496
02:28:04,300 --> 02:28:07,200
You know, I think you I think
you raise a good point and I

2497
02:28:07,208 --> 02:28:14,700
think it's something that, that
quite frankly Is like you said,

2498
02:28:14,700 --> 02:28:19,700
there has to be a balance struck
right where someone's not

2499
02:28:19,700 --> 02:28:25,700
telling you how to live, you
know, not not gestapo tactics,

2500
02:28:25,700 --> 02:28:30,500
right?
But at the same time and if I

2501
02:28:30,508 --> 02:28:34,100
was to be somewhat critical of
fundamentalism at this point,

2502
02:28:34,100 --> 02:28:41,400
it's that I think we need some
sort of way of being able to

2503
02:28:41,400 --> 02:28:44,600
have somebody check our crap
once in awhile, right?

2504
02:28:44,600 --> 02:28:46,600
To say, I think you're off base
here.

2505
02:28:46,600 --> 02:28:50,000
Not and and not just plural
marriage, but maybe even just

2506
02:28:50,000 --> 02:28:53,300
religious ideas, you know,
somewhere where you can go and

2507
02:28:53,300 --> 02:28:56,500
talk to someone and be like you
know I think you're off in the

2508
02:28:56,500 --> 02:28:59,000
weeds here brother and let me
explain to you why and let's

2509
02:28:59,000 --> 02:29:02,800
reason this out and and that's
one of those things that there

2510
02:29:02,800 --> 02:29:05,800
does have to be a happy medium
there in order not only to

2511
02:29:05,800 --> 02:29:08,100
protect At people but principles
as well.

2512
02:29:10,300 --> 02:29:13,300
Amen.
It's, you know, you know, the

2513
02:29:13,400 --> 02:29:18,700
gospel it is to sanctify us
individually and are there is

2514
02:29:18,700 --> 02:29:22,100
individual benefit, but there is
supposed to be that community

2515
02:29:22,100 --> 02:29:25,200
structure, you know, that so
much of the New Testament talks

2516
02:29:25,200 --> 02:29:29,700
about the church, you know, and
references the people United

2517
02:29:29,700 --> 02:29:33,900
rather than as single
individuals and so that, you

2518
02:29:33,908 --> 02:29:36,600
know, while a person I think
people could be called in the

2519
02:29:36,600 --> 02:29:38,300
church.
I think people can be guided by

2520
02:29:38,300 --> 02:29:40,800
the Lord as an independent.
It's situation.

2521
02:29:41,000 --> 02:29:43,700
But I do think the ideal
situation is having that

2522
02:29:43,700 --> 02:29:48,000
community and having that
structure, you know, so that you

2523
02:29:48,000 --> 02:29:51,800
aren't you know, making say God
in your own image where your

2524
02:29:51,800 --> 02:29:55,600
blind spots can be possibly
checked by a faithful brother

2525
02:29:55,600 --> 02:29:59,200
who has good intentions.
Yeah, so absolutely.

2526
02:30:00,400 --> 02:30:05,700
Well dude, this was epic.
So yeah, so I do think we do

2527
02:30:05,700 --> 02:30:07,500
need to cover one thing.
Okay.

2528
02:30:07,500 --> 02:30:11,000
One last one, last thing that I
think Think is important is we

2529
02:30:11,000 --> 02:30:15,600
need to discuss even though the
sealing power was regulated

2530
02:30:15,600 --> 02:30:19,900
under Joseph and Brigham.
Most fundamentalist don't seem

2531
02:30:19,900 --> 02:30:21,800
to him.
I think if you talk to most

2532
02:30:21,800 --> 02:30:24,400
fundamentalist, they will
acknowledge that they think that

2533
02:30:24,400 --> 02:30:26,900
there's Authority in more than
one place today.

2534
02:30:27,300 --> 02:30:30,300
And that they will recognize,
you know, they were recognized

2535
02:30:30,300 --> 02:30:32,300
that there may be priests valid
priest it.

2536
02:30:32,300 --> 02:30:37,200
Outside of just say, the people
they're associated with and or

2537
02:30:37,200 --> 02:30:39,700
even ceiling Authority held in
different.

2538
02:30:39,800 --> 02:30:42,900
Places or even, you know,
authority to do plural marriage

2539
02:30:43,600 --> 02:30:48,700
outside of what their particular
belief about Authority is.

2540
02:30:49,200 --> 02:30:56,400
And so, one thing that shows
that, you know, that God and His

2541
02:30:56,400 --> 02:30:59,100
priesthood will adapt.
According to circumstances,

2542
02:30:59,700 --> 02:31:02,400
there's always Eternal
principles, but there's also

2543
02:31:02,400 --> 02:31:07,600
the, you know, the in practice
that circumstances can affect

2544
02:31:07,600 --> 02:31:09,600
how different principles are
implemented.

2545
02:31:09,800 --> 02:31:16,000
And under John Taylor, things
seem to change where he actually

2546
02:31:16,000 --> 02:31:19,400
was not as actively involved
with plural marriage regulation

2547
02:31:19,400 --> 02:31:23,500
as Joseph and Brigham were.
And part of the reason for that

2548
02:31:23,600 --> 02:31:27,200
is because of the federal
persecution on the church, the

2549
02:31:27,400 --> 02:31:31,600
ATA to Edmonds act.
Basically led to John Taylor as

2550
02:31:31,600 --> 02:31:35,300
the president of the church
saying, I cannot have personal

2551
02:31:35,300 --> 02:31:39,600
knowledge or involvement with
polygamy as a principal.

2552
02:31:39,800 --> 02:31:43,800
Practice because of my standing
in the church and they're trying

2553
02:31:43,800 --> 02:31:47,000
to basically and they were
trying to print, you know, find

2554
02:31:47,000 --> 02:31:49,400
out information about plural,
marriage and throw all the

2555
02:31:49,400 --> 02:31:51,900
practicing, polygamists in
prison.

2556
02:31:52,100 --> 02:31:56,200
And so basically, at that time,
John Taylor uninvolved himself

2557
02:31:56,500 --> 02:31:59,300
as the keyholder of being
involved with plural marriage

2558
02:31:59,300 --> 02:32:04,300
and he actually authorized
dozens if not hundreds of men to

2559
02:32:04,300 --> 02:32:09,600
perform plural marriages as they
were led to buy, he said that

2560
02:32:09,700 --> 02:32:13,000
This could be signed by any
number of different church

2561
02:32:13,000 --> 02:32:17,600
leaders but that you know that
he was not personally involved

2562
02:32:17,600 --> 02:32:21,300
with it and this comes up when
he was called to be on trial and

2563
02:32:21,300 --> 02:32:25,400
in to testify in the case in a
case of plural marriage in

2564
02:32:25,400 --> 02:32:28,300
October of 1884 he was kind of
subpoena design.

2565
02:32:28,300 --> 02:32:37,500
Understand and you know
basically asked let's see Yeah,

2566
02:32:37,500 --> 02:32:40,300
yeah, so he was subpoenaed and
asked to, you know, basically

2567
02:32:40,300 --> 02:32:42,800
what he knew about plural
marriage is being stall, mice

2568
02:32:42,800 --> 02:32:47,300
and where the records were and
he basically said that he wasn't

2569
02:32:47,300 --> 02:32:53,300
involved and he he basically
says, I give the authority, but

2570
02:32:53,300 --> 02:32:55,900
there's other people that also
hold Authority.

2571
02:32:55,900 --> 02:32:58,800
And he says, if you conferred
upon any person that Authority

2572
02:32:58,800 --> 02:33:01,400
within the past three years, he
goes yes.

2573
02:33:01,400 --> 02:33:03,400
Why.
Who else he says sometimes?

2574
02:33:03,400 --> 02:33:05,700
Joseph F Smith sometimes George
Q Cannon.

2575
02:33:05,900 --> 02:33:08,200
You remember any others?
You confirmed that Authority

2576
02:33:08,200 --> 02:33:11,000
within that time.
I do not remember anything that

2577
02:33:11,000 --> 02:33:14,300
present when this Authority is
conferred upon you by, by

2578
02:33:14,300 --> 02:33:17,200
anyone, or you is Authority,
limited to some case, or is it

2579
02:33:17,200 --> 02:33:20,000
General Authority?
It would be General in all cases

2580
02:33:20,000 --> 02:33:22,300
until rescinded.
I understand is from you, the

2581
02:33:22,300 --> 02:33:23,800
authority comes.
Yes, sir.

2582
02:33:23,800 --> 02:33:26,900
But I have nothing to do with
the details of the matter but

2583
02:33:26,900 --> 02:33:28,800
you are the sister who confirms
The Authority.

2584
02:33:28,800 --> 02:33:30,800
Yes, sir.
And he says, then do you know

2585
02:33:30,800 --> 02:33:33,200
upon whom you've conferred that
Authority?

2586
02:33:33,400 --> 02:33:36,600
He goes, there are hundreds of
people who have the authority.

2587
02:33:36,900 --> 02:33:40,500
And he says, he says, who in
this city is authorized to

2588
02:33:40,500 --> 02:33:42,000
celebrate plural.
Marriages.

2589
02:33:42,100 --> 02:33:44,100
He says a great many have been
appointed.

2590
02:33:44,200 --> 02:33:46,900
Hundreds, could you give me
names of those in the city who

2591
02:33:46,900 --> 02:33:49,000
are now authorized to perform 40
marriages?

2592
02:33:49,500 --> 02:33:51,800
I could not.
Do you mean do you mean there

2593
02:33:51,800 --> 02:33:53,500
are so many.
He says there's a great many

2594
02:33:53,500 --> 02:33:57,000
that would be under authorized
under certain circumstances and

2595
02:33:57,000 --> 02:34:00,800
this leads to the great sermon
in the Journal of discourses,

2596
02:34:01,000 --> 02:34:05,100
where he talks about temples are
made for man, not man for the

2597
02:34:05,200 --> 02:34:08,500
the temples I might be getting
that wrong, but he basically

2598
02:34:08,500 --> 02:34:11,800
says that, well, temples are
great central place to perform

2599
02:34:11,800 --> 02:34:15,500
ordinances.
If we are opposed by the world

2600
02:34:15,500 --> 02:34:18,500
and made it so that we can't do
our ordinances in Temple, the

2601
02:34:18,500 --> 02:34:20,800
work of God's going to continue
and we're going to continue

2602
02:34:20,800 --> 02:34:24,300
doing ordinances anyway because
it's the authority.

2603
02:34:24,300 --> 02:34:26,900
That's more.
That's the most important thing,

2604
02:34:26,900 --> 02:34:29,300
not the place, if that makes
sense.

2605
02:34:29,700 --> 02:34:32,800
And he basically said that, they
tried to interrogate him to try

2606
02:34:32,800 --> 02:34:35,300
to get, you know, figure out
where they could find.

2607
02:34:36,900 --> 02:34:40,000
Records of plural marriages and
he says it was wisdom that I

2608
02:34:40,000 --> 02:34:43,500
wasn't knowledgeable about this
so that they couldn't use it to

2609
02:34:43,500 --> 02:34:46,200
persecute people who are keeping
alive this principle.

2610
02:34:46,700 --> 02:34:52,700
And so that basically continued
under Wilford Woodruff, even

2611
02:34:52,700 --> 02:34:56,800
after the manifesto, he's
saying, you know, he basically

2612
02:34:58,300 --> 02:35:01,500
appointed George Q Cannon to
keep plural, marriage, alive,

2613
02:35:01,500 --> 02:35:05,000
without Wilfred Woodruff really
being involved with that.

2614
02:35:06,800 --> 02:35:11,300
You know that there are and
Lorenzo Snow even commented when

2615
02:35:11,300 --> 02:35:13,900
he found, when he hurts,
somebody told him about George Q

2616
02:35:13,900 --> 02:35:16,600
Cannon, authorizing a plural,
marriage, lorenza, snow

2617
02:35:16,600 --> 02:35:19,900
reportedly.
Quoted said, I will not

2618
02:35:19,900 --> 02:35:23,700
interfere with I will not
interfere with present

2619
02:35:23,700 --> 02:35:28,300
woodruff's, unfinished business
is what Renzo snow said about.

2620
02:35:28,300 --> 02:35:34,300
Well you can enjoy doing plural
marriages and so And so this

2621
02:35:34,300 --> 02:35:40,100
could easily be where, you know,
High into the 1888 story where

2622
02:35:40,100 --> 02:35:44,500
you have, right?
The men who say that showed that

2623
02:35:44,500 --> 02:35:48,100
John Taylor, commissioned them
to see to it that plural,

2624
02:35:48,100 --> 02:35:50,900
marriage is perpetuated, no
matter what.

2625
02:35:50,900 --> 02:35:54,100
Right?
And so you know it, what's

2626
02:35:54,100 --> 02:35:58,400
what's?
So let me let me paraphrase what

2627
02:35:58,400 --> 02:36:00,500
you just said there so I make
sure I understand.

2628
02:36:01,600 --> 02:36:03,400
Let's take the temple issue
first.

2629
02:36:05,000 --> 02:36:07,500
Optimally, you would want to
Temple to do that in.

2630
02:36:07,700 --> 02:36:11,400
But if that's not available, the
ordinances can still be had.

2631
02:36:12,600 --> 02:36:18,200
Yep.
Now what you said about John

2632
02:36:18,200 --> 02:36:20,500
Taylor and plausible
deniability?

2633
02:36:21,700 --> 02:36:24,300
I think.
I think we can actually point to

2634
02:36:24,300 --> 02:36:29,200
something that Joseph.
F Smith had said and this came

2635
02:36:29,200 --> 02:36:31,100
out of a I can't remember what
bucket was.

2636
02:36:31,100 --> 02:36:36,800
But it was by Quinn where
somebody there were numerous

2637
02:36:36,800 --> 02:36:42,000
people who came to Joseph, F
Smith and said, Hey, hey.

2638
02:36:42,000 --> 02:36:44,700
We want to be sealed.
It's me and this other lady.

2639
02:36:44,900 --> 02:36:48,900
Can we still do that?
I mean plural marriage.

2640
02:36:50,700 --> 02:36:55,300
And back to what you said about.
Taylor authorizing other people

2641
02:36:55,300 --> 02:37:00,400
to do that Joseph F Smith.
Response was always if you can

2642
02:37:00,400 --> 02:37:03,600
find someone to do that for you,
God bless you.

2643
02:37:04,800 --> 02:37:07,600
Yeah.
And so you can you can see that

2644
02:37:08,100 --> 02:37:13,900
and look, we know that even
within regulated groups and

2645
02:37:13,900 --> 02:37:17,800
churches that, that that
Authority does get passed around

2646
02:37:17,800 --> 02:37:20,800
to even people in that other.
And and you know, other people

2647
02:37:20,800 --> 02:37:24,700
other than just the key holder
in that group.

2648
02:37:24,800 --> 02:37:28,200
So this idea that he's passing
around that Authority.

2649
02:37:28,900 --> 02:37:34,200
Yeah.
It's it's it's a spot-on, right?

2650
02:37:35,100 --> 02:37:37,600
Absolutely.
And then I think a key thing is

2651
02:37:37,600 --> 02:37:42,900
it's the 1886 Revelation kind of
confirms it very saying that men

2652
02:37:42,900 --> 02:37:46,100
are now having free agency
regarding these matters.

2653
02:37:46,100 --> 02:37:50,200
You know that you know because
of the times are perilous but

2654
02:37:50,200 --> 02:37:55,000
you know people who still want
to keep the laws can still do so

2655
02:37:55,000 --> 02:38:00,500
if they're directed to.
So what one other point I'd

2656
02:38:00,500 --> 02:38:04,400
mentioned you've talked before
about how when you first live

2657
02:38:04,700 --> 02:38:06,800
Marriage.
It was by a solemn Covenant,

2658
02:38:07,000 --> 02:38:08,700
which is something Ogden craps
written.

2659
02:38:08,700 --> 02:38:12,400
On one thing that I think is
very fascinating, is that we

2660
02:38:12,400 --> 02:38:17,700
have a statement recorded in the
Abraham Cannon and Diaries

2661
02:38:18,200 --> 02:38:22,300
recording, three different
members of the first presidency?

2662
02:38:23,400 --> 02:38:27,600
What Wilford Woodruff Lorenzo
Snow and George Q Cannon.

2663
02:38:27,600 --> 02:38:29,400
To learn system was actually
president of the Quorum of The

2664
02:38:29,400 --> 02:38:31,200
Twelve, but you'd be the next
prophet of the church.

2665
02:38:31,200 --> 02:38:35,900
So you have Woodruff Joy.
HQ Cannon and Lorenzo Snow.

2666
02:38:35,900 --> 02:38:39,400
All agreeing that men who are in
a situation where they couldn't

2667
02:38:39,400 --> 02:38:44,200
get ceiling Authority, the but
were impressed by the Lord upon

2668
02:38:44,200 --> 02:38:47,300
righteous principles to live
plural marriage that they would

2669
02:38:47,300 --> 02:38:50,200
be justified.
So this is a fascinating journal

2670
02:38:50,200 --> 02:38:55,300
entry and it's on April 5th
1894, father George do Cannon.

2671
02:38:55,300 --> 02:38:57,000
Now spoke of the unfortunate
condition.

2672
02:38:57,000 --> 02:39:00,500
The people at present regards to
marriage a man and Pima Arizona

2673
02:39:00,500 --> 02:39:01,800
married.
The Widow of the deceased

2674
02:39:01,800 --> 02:39:05,900
brother, he did not realize till
after the Bill is passed this

2675
02:39:05,900 --> 02:39:08,700
true condition.
Now he's raising up C to his

2676
02:39:08,700 --> 02:39:11,400
dear friend, while he himself,
is likely to be left without

2677
02:39:11,400 --> 02:39:14,300
posterity, then there are men
whose wives are Barren.

2678
02:39:14,300 --> 02:39:17,100
Are likely to be left without
Representatives on the earth.

2679
02:39:17,300 --> 02:39:20,100
Young widows are leftist, some
alternative and bearing Gentiles

2680
02:39:20,300 --> 02:39:22,300
were remaining single all their
lives.

2681
02:39:22,500 --> 02:39:25,500
It seems that something locked
to be done sooner or later to

2682
02:39:25,500 --> 02:39:28,800
remedy these conditions.
My son, David died without seed

2683
02:39:28,800 --> 02:39:31,200
and his brothers cat, his
brothers, can't do it.

2684
02:39:31,208 --> 02:39:34,100
Work for them and rearing
children to Bear's name because

2685
02:39:34,100 --> 02:39:38,100
of A Manifesto, I believe even
concubine inch or some plan

2686
02:39:38,100 --> 02:39:41,500
where men and women can live
together under sacred ordinances

2687
02:39:41,500 --> 02:39:43,600
and vows until they can be
married.

2688
02:39:43,600 --> 02:39:47,600
I sealed the SAR Surplus girls
can be cared for and the law of

2689
02:39:47,600 --> 02:39:50,400
God to multiply and replenish
the Earth be fulfilled.

2690
02:39:50,500 --> 02:39:53,100
There is a danger of wicked men
taking offense at such a

2691
02:39:53,108 --> 02:39:55,500
condition and a good people
taking offense.

2692
02:39:55,500 --> 02:39:58,400
They're at, and such a condition
condition would have to be kept

2693
02:39:58,400 --> 02:40:01,400
secret until the laws of our
government could be changed.

2694
02:40:01,500 --> 02:40:04,600
So that worked to permit the
holy order of what what Like

2695
02:40:04,600 --> 02:40:07,500
which God has revealed?
He polygamy, which will

2696
02:40:07,500 --> 02:40:10,000
undoubtedly occur at no distant
day in order to correct the

2697
02:40:10,000 --> 02:40:12,600
social evil.
I do not say that this plan is

2698
02:40:12,600 --> 02:40:15,100
the right one by appeal, to the
Lord to reveal, what would be

2699
02:40:15,100 --> 02:40:19,200
right in the matter to abort
threats, avert threatened evils.

2700
02:40:19,700 --> 02:40:21,800
So then we rent this, no
comments.

2701
02:40:22,100 --> 02:40:24,900
I have no doubt, but concubine
it's will yet be practiced in

2702
02:40:24,908 --> 02:40:26,500
this church, but I had not
thought of it.

2703
02:40:26,500 --> 02:40:28,900
In this condition, when the
nations are troubled, good

2704
02:40:28,900 --> 02:40:31,800
woman, will come here for safety
and blessings and men will

2705
02:40:31,800 --> 02:40:34,300
accept them as concubines, then
present with ourselves.

2706
02:40:34,400 --> 02:40:37,700
Said, if men enter into some
practice of this character to

2707
02:40:37,700 --> 02:40:41,300
raise up a righteous posterity,
they will be justified in it.

2708
02:40:41,400 --> 02:40:44,100
The day is near where there will
be no difficulty in the way of

2709
02:40:44,100 --> 02:40:46,400
Good Men.
Securing Noble wives, their

2710
02:40:46,400 --> 02:40:48,800
terrible afflictions at the door
of this nation, which will take

2711
02:40:48,800 --> 02:40:50,400
their minds away from this
people.

2712
02:40:50,600 --> 02:40:53,300
And then what?
In other discussions they admit

2713
02:40:53,300 --> 02:40:56,200
that the manifesto did not
repeal the law of plural

2714
02:40:56,200 --> 02:40:59,100
marriage.
It just took the responsibility

2715
02:40:59,100 --> 02:41:02,000
off of church members.
Wilfred Wonder said it was

2716
02:41:02,000 --> 02:41:06,700
advice but that it did not.
Change the law for that law is

2717
02:41:06,700 --> 02:41:09,900
eternal.
So there you have it.

2718
02:41:09,900 --> 02:41:12,600
Three different members of the
first presidency, George Q

2719
02:41:12,600 --> 02:41:15,600
Cannon.
Renzo snow and Wilford Woodruff

2720
02:41:15,600 --> 02:41:18,000
all agreed.
That individuals could enter

2721
02:41:18,000 --> 02:41:20,700
into a practice of that
character to raise up a

2722
02:41:20,700 --> 02:41:25,000
righteous posterity and be
justified in that the best

2723
02:41:25,000 --> 02:41:29,400
Church apologists can't refute
that statement of three

2724
02:41:29,400 --> 02:41:33,100
different church leaders, you
know, Lorenzo Snow Wilford

2725
02:41:33,100 --> 02:41:38,000
Woodruff and George And when
this quote was pointed out to

2726
02:41:38,008 --> 02:41:42,000
Brian, Hales one time, Brian
Hills was just kind of had to,

2727
02:41:42,000 --> 02:41:46,700
but he's something about
concubines, that's a royal flush

2728
02:41:46,700 --> 02:41:49,500
or, you know, he says, he
basically just kind of want to

2729
02:41:49,508 --> 02:41:51,900
mock it instead of
acknowledging, what?

2730
02:41:52,300 --> 02:41:55,300
The church leaders actually said
after the manifesto.

2731
02:41:55,800 --> 02:42:00,800
And so that's one thing and then
another quote that I think is

2732
02:42:00,900 --> 02:42:04,300
significant and interesting is
the statement.

2733
02:42:04,400 --> 02:42:07,300
Ain't about John by John W.
Taylor.

2734
02:42:10,300 --> 02:42:14,600
On February 22nd 1911, which is
recorded in the Charles Penrose,

2735
02:42:14,600 --> 02:42:17,400
diary.
He produced a copy of the other

2736
02:42:17,400 --> 02:42:21,900
Revelation to his father, John
Taylor, IE, the 1886 Revelation,

2737
02:42:22,100 --> 02:42:24,600
he interpret it to mean that the
man who stood at the head was

2738
02:42:24,600 --> 02:42:28,100
received relieved of the
responsibility of holding the

2739
02:42:28,100 --> 02:42:30,900
keys.
I have plural marriage and free

2740
02:42:30,900 --> 02:42:33,600
agency was given to all my
people.

2741
02:42:33,900 --> 02:42:39,600
So, John W, Taylor, John Taylor
son went into the his Remember.

2742
02:42:39,600 --> 02:42:43,700
So he was unfortunately thrown
under the bus after the second

2743
02:42:43,700 --> 02:42:46,400
Manifesto for perpetuating
plural marriage.

2744
02:42:46,800 --> 02:42:49,700
But he went into his trial,
basically saying I understand

2745
02:42:49,700 --> 02:42:53,500
this 1886 Revelation and saying
that this principle needs is

2746
02:42:53,500 --> 02:42:57,200
still binding, no matter what
and but people have their free

2747
02:42:57,200 --> 02:43:01,900
agency whether they're going to
live up to it or not to receive

2748
02:43:01,900 --> 02:43:06,200
the full blessings.
And you know, that's, you know,

2749
02:43:06,200 --> 02:43:09,000
he they didn't they didn't
really like him saying that.

2750
02:43:09,200 --> 02:43:13,100
He was a bit blunt, but when he
was cut off there is, you know,

2751
02:43:14,400 --> 02:43:17,700
you know, there are some
apostles were like, man, we cut

2752
02:43:17,700 --> 02:43:21,000
off the only the guy who got
more Visions than the rest of

2753
02:43:21,000 --> 02:43:25,100
the corm combined, you know,
they knew that John Taylor son,

2754
02:43:25,100 --> 02:43:27,200
John W.
Taylor was a righteous man.

2755
02:43:27,700 --> 02:43:32,400
And he was, you know what's
interesting, though?

2756
02:43:32,400 --> 02:43:35,600
Is that like you talked about
Joseph F Smith, there's several,

2757
02:43:35,700 --> 02:43:38,800
he based the thing they didn't
want to even consider is that

2758
02:43:38,800 --> 02:43:41,400
the Try out.
He mentioned that he felt there.

2759
02:43:41,400 --> 02:43:43,300
Like would you act out of
harmony with the present?

2760
02:43:43,300 --> 02:43:46,000
The church?
He says I don't think I'm acting

2761
02:43:46,000 --> 02:43:47,600
out of harmony with the presence
of the church.

2762
02:43:47,900 --> 02:43:50,500
Are you implying that President
Joseph?

2763
02:43:50,500 --> 02:43:52,800
F Smith is okay with plural
marriage.

2764
02:43:53,000 --> 02:43:55,800
He says you can take it however
you want take it.

2765
02:43:55,800 --> 02:43:58,100
But I'm not going to say
anything one way or the other

2766
02:43:58,300 --> 02:44:01,900
and their say we aren't going to
even consider the possibility

2767
02:44:01,900 --> 02:44:05,600
that he would be okay.
You know, that he would not be

2768
02:44:05,600 --> 02:44:07,700
going with, you know, that he
would not be sustained.

2769
02:44:07,700 --> 02:44:12,000
The manifesto is kind of They
said right there but as Quinn

2770
02:44:12,000 --> 02:44:17,500
showed and as other sources show
that John John and Joseph F

2771
02:44:17,500 --> 02:44:21,500
Smith, excuse me was giving a
wink and a nod telling he knew

2772
02:44:21,500 --> 02:44:25,300
plural marriage was an eternal
law and he was giving a wink and

2773
02:44:25,300 --> 02:44:28,000
a nod to men to continue to
perpetuate it.

2774
02:44:28,400 --> 02:44:33,800
And in the case of John W Taylor
he actually brought him temple

2775
02:44:33,800 --> 02:44:37,800
close so that he could be buried
in Temple close even though he

2776
02:44:37,800 --> 02:44:41,600
was excommunicated.
For post, Manifesto post, second

2777
02:44:41,600 --> 02:44:45,500
Manifesto, plural marriage.
So that shows that he still

2778
02:44:45,500 --> 02:44:50,100
believed that John W Taylor held
priesthood, even though he was

2779
02:44:50,100 --> 02:44:54,600
not a member of the church at
that point because of plural

2780
02:44:54,600 --> 02:44:58,700
marriage, you know?
Similarly, sorry, go ahead.

2781
02:44:59,100 --> 02:45:01,100
No, I thought you were done.
Go ahead.

2782
02:45:02,600 --> 02:45:09,400
And it's very similar
circumstance, Jean W bully John

2783
02:45:09,400 --> 02:45:14,300
Wily's grand daughter recalled
that after a state conference

2784
02:45:14,500 --> 02:45:18,900
where Joseph F Smith spoke.
That afterwards that Joseph F

2785
02:45:18,900 --> 02:45:21,400
Smith came up to her, came up to
her grandfather.

2786
02:45:21,400 --> 02:45:25,500
John Willie, and told him that
he was terribly, sorry about the

2787
02:45:25,500 --> 02:45:28,000
fact that he had been
excommunicated for plural

2788
02:45:28,000 --> 02:45:31,200
marriage and he said it was out
of my hands, but we can bring

2789
02:45:31,200 --> 02:45:34,400
you back in a privately.
If you would, if you, you know,

2790
02:45:34,400 --> 02:45:38,900
if you have a mind to and what
she recalled is that John Willie

2791
02:45:38,900 --> 02:45:42,900
said you cut me off publicly.
I would have to be reinstated

2792
02:45:42,900 --> 02:45:46,900
publicly in order to accept that
and, you know, drugs, the best.

2793
02:45:46,900 --> 02:45:50,300
And I think said that, you know,
we unfortunately can't do that

2794
02:45:50,300 --> 02:45:52,100
based off of where the church is
that.

2795
02:45:52,500 --> 02:45:56,700
So you know there's all these
hints that Joseph Smith was

2796
02:45:57,200 --> 02:46:01,600
really supportive of the Proto
fundamentalist Beginnings.

2797
02:46:01,800 --> 02:46:05,100
You keep the Principal alive.
You know, I find this time

2798
02:46:05,100 --> 02:46:07,700
period within the church.
Absolutely.

2799
02:46:07,700 --> 02:46:11,700
Fascinating.
That post Manifesto posts even

2800
02:46:11,700 --> 02:46:14,800
post second Manifesto time
period.

2801
02:46:14,800 --> 02:46:18,900
Where the thought of having
another church or another group

2802
02:46:18,900 --> 02:46:23,400
you went to wasn't really in
Vogue or around at the time.

2803
02:46:24,300 --> 02:46:31,700
And so you you have you have
these winks and nods at people,

2804
02:46:31,800 --> 02:46:33,900
right?
And and this is where

2805
02:46:33,900 --> 02:46:36,300
fundamentalism begins to pick up
speed.

2806
02:46:36,300 --> 02:46:40,800
It begins to and and
unfortunately I think it's the

2807
02:46:40,800 --> 02:46:43,800
beginning of of the Schism,
right?

2808
02:46:43,800 --> 02:46:48,700
Because as I read the history of
this time period, you get this

2809
02:46:48,700 --> 02:46:52,800
idea that.
Yeah we excommunicated brother

2810
02:46:52,800 --> 02:46:55,000
so-and-so for living plural
marriage.

2811
02:46:55,000 --> 02:46:58,500
But he still a good guy and he's
just fulfilling the laws of God,

2812
02:46:58,500 --> 02:47:02,500
but we just can't acknowledge it
and then it seems like When

2813
02:47:03,200 --> 02:47:08,600
Grant comes around the, the hard
Schism is underway and won't be

2814
02:47:10,300 --> 02:47:16,500
that that again, that, that
camaraderie that those Proto

2815
02:47:16,500 --> 02:47:20,500
fundamentalists and the church
enjoyed that, that Brotherly

2816
02:47:20,500 --> 02:47:25,200
Love is now gone by the time you
get to Grant.

2817
02:47:25,700 --> 02:47:31,200
So, and unfortunately, a lot of
the early fundamental State have

2818
02:47:31,500 --> 02:47:35,800
so like And while he would talk
about how, hey, church leaders

2819
02:47:35,800 --> 02:47:40,100
were doing Playmate after the
manifesto, even after the second

2820
02:47:40,100 --> 02:47:44,600
Manifesto, there were still
Apostles involved with this but

2821
02:47:44,600 --> 02:47:47,100
they couldn't prove it.
You know, it's only in the last

2822
02:47:47,100 --> 02:47:51,500
several decades, that the sort
that we have access to all the

2823
02:47:51,500 --> 02:47:56,800
journals, and other records that
show that the manifesto was not

2824
02:47:56,800 --> 02:48:00,800
meant to and plural marriage,
but was a lie to the government

2825
02:48:01,400 --> 02:48:04,600
and its only Now, that we can
look back and prove that the

2826
02:48:04,600 --> 02:48:07,800
early fundamentalist were
telling the truth about that.

2827
02:48:07,900 --> 02:48:11,900
So it's very unfortunate that
they didn't have access to the

2828
02:48:11,900 --> 02:48:17,400
sources back in the 1920s and
1930s that we have today.

2829
02:48:17,800 --> 02:48:21,700
Yeah, but I think I think bright
side of the sources are

2830
02:48:21,700 --> 02:48:26,700
available today.
When bright side is that there's

2831
02:48:26,700 --> 02:48:30,700
mainstream LDS people who see
the end of plural, marriage

2832
02:48:30,700 --> 02:48:33,400
being a really messy issue and
even I think the church is on

2833
02:48:33,400 --> 02:48:37,400
gospel topics SBA and that's
that L kept doing, you know,

2834
02:48:37,400 --> 02:48:39,600
that that are.
It was a, it was a long process

2835
02:48:39,600 --> 02:48:43,100
for plural, marriage, be ended.
So there's some sympathy for

2836
02:48:43,100 --> 02:48:46,700
fundamentalism and saying that.
Yeah, they do seem to be

2837
02:48:46,700 --> 02:48:48,500
justified.
According to this certain

2838
02:48:48,500 --> 02:48:52,700
perspective on trying to keep
alive the old ways of Mormonism.

2839
02:48:52,900 --> 02:48:55,000
Yes.
So, there are some members of

2840
02:48:55,000 --> 02:48:59,200
the church that are respectful
of fundamentalist, even if they

2841
02:48:59,700 --> 02:49:02,100
don't personally believe they're
called to live plural, marriage.

2842
02:49:02,300 --> 02:49:03,400
Age.
And they'll believe, you know,

2843
02:49:03,600 --> 02:49:05,900
they're in the church.
And I do think that church

2844
02:49:05,900 --> 02:49:10,500
members one, not one thing that
I think is fascinating, I think

2845
02:49:10,500 --> 02:49:13,100
church members should be
appreciative of plural.

2846
02:49:13,100 --> 02:49:17,200
Marriage of fundamentalist is
that there are so many

2847
02:49:17,200 --> 02:49:20,300
prophecies in early Utah, that
plural, marriage would never be

2848
02:49:20,300 --> 02:49:24,400
done away with right.
You know, John W, Taylor saying

2849
02:49:24,400 --> 02:49:27,300
that principle, what or John?
Taylor saying that principle

2850
02:49:27,300 --> 02:49:31,100
will never be overcome and at
the Manti Temple dedication

2851
02:49:31,200 --> 02:49:33,200
Wilfred woodruff's.
Saying plural marriage will

2852
02:49:33,200 --> 02:49:35,700
continue until the coming of the
son of man.

2853
02:49:36,100 --> 02:49:40,000
And you know, there's so many
statements along that nature of

2854
02:49:40,000 --> 02:49:42,200
that plural, marriage would
continue into the Millennium,

2855
02:49:42,600 --> 02:49:44,600
that wasn't going to be taken
from the earth.

2856
02:49:44,900 --> 02:49:47,900
And so even if you're a
mainstream Latter-Day Saint and

2857
02:49:47,900 --> 02:49:52,000
the church fundamental is to
fulfill that prophecy of keeping

2858
02:49:52,000 --> 02:49:54,300
plural, marriage alive, no
matter what.

2859
02:49:54,800 --> 02:49:56,300
So yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

2860
02:49:56,400 --> 02:49:57,900
You think that's a fast saying?
No.

2861
02:49:58,300 --> 02:49:59,600
Absolutely.
Yeah.

2862
02:49:59,600 --> 02:50:04,900
I You know, I hate what you said
before about their members that

2863
02:50:04,900 --> 02:50:08,300
are now coming around and, and
even though they may think we're

2864
02:50:08,300 --> 02:50:10,400
wrong for living plural
marriage.

2865
02:50:10,400 --> 02:50:13,900
There are those that are coming
around to, at least being like,

2866
02:50:13,900 --> 02:50:16,900
hey, I can respect you because
you at least make your argument

2867
02:50:16,900 --> 02:50:21,300
in history and we may disagree,
but that doesn't mean we have to

2868
02:50:21,300 --> 02:50:27,700
be disagreeable and I think that
is is hugely important right

2869
02:50:27,700 --> 02:50:32,700
now, because in a lot of ways, A
lot of the problems like we

2870
02:50:32,700 --> 02:50:36,000
talked about here.
The LDS church is just as

2871
02:50:36,000 --> 02:50:39,000
vulnerable as any fundamentalist
is with it, right?

2872
02:50:39,000 --> 02:50:44,300
And so sometimes, you know,
sometimes we do have to align on

2873
02:50:44,300 --> 02:50:47,400
certain things just to protect
our kids.

2874
02:50:48,400 --> 02:50:54,200
So well dude, another thing,
okay, sorry, another up you go.

2875
02:50:54,900 --> 02:50:58,700
No, you go, go ahead.
Well and I do think that it's,

2876
02:50:59,500 --> 02:51:03,200
you know, when the polygamy
denial movements test

2877
02:51:03,200 --> 02:51:07,100
resurrected and, you know, the
last decade or so first kind of

2878
02:51:07,100 --> 02:51:09,200
understand uh, fur.
And then there started to be

2879
02:51:09,200 --> 02:51:13,100
other independent, you know,
internet movements for this.

2880
02:51:13,400 --> 02:51:16,700
You know, the people who are at
the Forefront of it in my, from

2881
02:51:16,700 --> 02:51:20,700
my perspective, where Lily
fundamentalist, but now that

2882
02:51:20,700 --> 02:51:24,000
these moments and just kept
growing and becoming more

2883
02:51:24,000 --> 02:51:29,100
antagonistic towards church
members, I I'm glad to see that

2884
02:51:29,100 --> 02:51:31,900
more mainstream members are
picking up the fight and

2885
02:51:31,900 --> 02:51:35,400
realizing we need to know the
history here in order to defend

2886
02:51:35,400 --> 02:51:39,400
our heritage and you know to
defend the history that we know

2887
02:51:39,400 --> 02:51:42,800
we have a testimony of and we
know that, you know, that these

2888
02:51:42,800 --> 02:51:46,100
early Brethren were prophets and
were inspired and what they did.

2889
02:51:46,100 --> 02:51:48,000
Even if you know we might not be
doing those.

2890
02:51:48,100 --> 02:51:52,300
Things today and so I'm glad to
see, you know, I hope that you

2891
02:51:52,300 --> 02:51:56,100
know more mainstream largest
think it's can continue to get

2892
02:51:56,100 --> 02:51:59,700
involved in understanding the
history of plural, marriage in

2893
02:51:59,700 --> 02:52:02,600
the history of its introduction.
By Joseph Smith.

2894
02:52:03,100 --> 02:52:08,300
In order to defend these false
historical narratives that keep

2895
02:52:08,300 --> 02:52:12,100
cropping up and I've ever sick
of absolutely.

2896
02:52:12,900 --> 02:52:15,100
Alright, ma'am.
That was that was epic.

2897
02:52:15,100 --> 02:52:17,600
Is there anything that we didn't
talk about that you wanted to

2898
02:52:17,600 --> 02:52:21,900
talk about About.
No I think we just had a very

2899
02:52:22,000 --> 02:52:25,500
epic thorough conversation about
you know, plural marriage

2900
02:52:25,500 --> 02:52:30,500
Authority its introduction as
well as the polygamy skeptic or

2901
02:52:30,500 --> 02:52:36,200
polygamy denial movement.
So That was, that was good.

2902
02:52:36,200 --> 02:52:39,600
I'm glad you had me on good.
We always have these kind of

2903
02:52:39,600 --> 02:52:44,000
acid conversations, so it's
always great when you come on.

2904
02:52:45,200 --> 02:52:49,200
I personally, I'm getting, you
know, pretty worn out with this

2905
02:52:49,300 --> 02:52:53,100
with this issue because I've
been at it for several years and

2906
02:52:53,100 --> 02:52:57,500
it's often the same exact
arguments over and over again.

2907
02:52:57,500 --> 02:53:02,500
Yeah, really told you so but I
was willing, you know, you

2908
02:53:02,500 --> 02:53:05,200
invited me.
I was like, I've got to do this

2909
02:53:05,200 --> 02:53:08,200
for Dave, you know?
So I appreciate, I appreciate

2910
02:53:08,200 --> 02:53:10,500
that.
I tried to stay away from it

2911
02:53:10,500 --> 02:53:16,200
because A fundamentalist talking
about polygamy is pretty base,

2912
02:53:16,200 --> 02:53:18,900
right?
I mean, it's it's, you know,

2913
02:53:18,900 --> 02:53:22,900
it's one of those things where
it's like, low-hanging fruit.

2914
02:53:22,900 --> 02:53:24,800
So I did my best to stay away
from it.

2915
02:53:24,800 --> 02:53:29,200
But man, you just keep having
people coming harder and harder

2916
02:53:29,200 --> 02:53:32,100
at it and it's like, okay,
enough's enough.

2917
02:53:32,100 --> 02:53:37,900
I gotta, I gotta deal with this.
So, Well, I'm pretty worn out of

2918
02:53:37,900 --> 02:53:41,300
it and so, honestly what I've,
which does sounds

2919
02:53:41,300 --> 02:53:43,300
counterintuitive but from worn
out of it.

2920
02:53:43,400 --> 02:53:48,100
I actually recently started a
new video YouTube channel, as

2921
02:53:48,100 --> 02:53:52,800
well as a Facebook page.
Entitled debunking polygamy

2922
02:53:52,800 --> 02:53:57,500
denial, where I'm planning to
thoroughly address all of the

2923
02:53:57,500 --> 02:54:00,800
different arguments and
different, you know, and bring

2924
02:54:00,800 --> 02:54:03,200
up the different evidence of
plural, marriage, starting with

2925
02:54:03,200 --> 02:54:08,400
Joseph and just have of a
comprehensive place where these

2926
02:54:08,400 --> 02:54:15,300
issues and, you know, be dealt
with in a almost a I can deal

2927
02:54:15,300 --> 02:54:19,300
with it and have it be done with
and I can just point it back to

2928
02:54:19,300 --> 02:54:22,400
that resource and it can also be
a resource for other people and

2929
02:54:22,400 --> 02:54:27,500
so absolutely this is something
that I've started and you know,

2930
02:54:27,500 --> 02:54:32,400
if you want to throw a link in
the show notes for any listeners

2931
02:54:32,400 --> 02:54:37,700
who might be absolutely for the
resources, Yeah, I because I do

2932
02:54:37,700 --> 02:54:41,200
think it's important to be armed
with the knowledge and I'm glad

2933
02:54:41,200 --> 02:54:44,100
that you you mentioned that you
were armed with it recently and

2934
02:54:44,100 --> 02:54:47,200
when you had a family member
come to you be like I'm here.

2935
02:54:47,200 --> 02:54:52,000
That Joseph not teaching
polygamy so you have able to yep

2936
02:54:52,000 --> 02:54:57,300
it's it's yeah I know I look
this statement should get some

2937
02:54:57,300 --> 02:55:02,800
hate if you're an honest dealer.
if you're really concerned with

2938
02:55:02,800 --> 02:55:07,600
the truth, I think the evidence
that Joe, that, that plural

2939
02:55:07,600 --> 02:55:12,700
marriage started with Joseph
Smith, In terms of the

2940
02:55:12,700 --> 02:55:15,000
restoration, it's pretty
undeniable.

2941
02:55:15,900 --> 02:55:19,200
You have to do some pretty
significant mental gymnastics to

2942
02:55:19,200 --> 02:55:23,900
get to the point where you think
you can say it was all Brigham's

2943
02:55:23,900 --> 02:55:29,800
idea or something like that.
So but anyway, dude, that was

2944
02:55:29,800 --> 02:55:31,400
awesome.
Let's do it again.

2945
02:55:31,400 --> 02:55:36,400
Only, let's do it on a different
topic but yeah, let's let's

2946
02:55:36,500 --> 02:55:38,500
let's get back together here
sooner than later.

2947
02:55:39,700 --> 02:55:40,600
All right.
Yeah.

2948
02:55:40,700 --> 02:55:42,600
Absolutely.
Alright.

2949
02:55:43,000 --> 02:55:59,700
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2950
02:55:59,700 --> 02:55:59,700
Renegade podcast.
You're listening to the Mormon

2951
02:55:59,700 --> 02:56:01,400
Renegade podcast.