Episode #51: Debunking the Claim That "Joseph Smith Didn't Teach & Live Plural Marriage" Plus Scriptural Proof of the Principles Divinity W/Kimberly Watson Smith

0:05 So today on the podcast, I have on Kimberly Watson Smith. Now, for those of my listeners who have been with me from the beginning here, you'll remember that I had her on the podcast, just about a year ago to debunk, the movie who killed Joseph Smith. Well, the same folks that are perpetuating that falsehood are now piling on making the claim that Joseph never introduced or practice plural marriage. So Kimberly and I have a conversation to bunking that idea. Now Kimberly doesn't just debunked the idea that Joseph never Were taught her practice plural, marriage, through historical accounts. But she then Dives deep into the scriptures to prove that Celestial plural. Marriage is a true principle. Now I want you to have a pen and paper handy throughout this podcast, because we take a deep dive and you want to write down a whole bunch of scriptures to go back and read later prepare to have your minds blown on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast. So I want to take just a few moments here and just say, thank you for listening.

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2:02 Thank you. Yeah. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Kimberly. Thanks for coming back on. Thanks for having me, Dave, I'm excited to be here. I'm excited to have you here. I gotta tell you our conversation. We had last time was was want.

2:48 Definitely, you know, in the top two or three of my favorites. We get, I just, I always love how you just come prepared and you got your facts straight and it's absolutely awesome. So, thank you very much. The recently, as we talked before on the phone, one of the things I'm noticing is that At now, what last time we talked, it was about, you know, debunking the movie who killed Joseph Smith and just showing the falsehoods, and just the kind of absurdity of the whole whole thing. But now they're really making a push on Joseph and Brigham and and they're making the the assertion that plural marriage was Brigham Young's idea, right?

3:35 Right. Oh yes. And that Joseph never taught plural marriage. He never lived. Plural. Marriage in your estimation. What's the danger of that? Oh, that's a very good question. So yeah, I think we definitely have to consider the implications of that and when you get to the heart of the Joseph fought politically movement, where they try to claim that it was Brigham Young, who was the author of Mormon polygamy, and not Joseph. The heart of that movement is that that they don't believe in priesthood. and that's the very heart of it, right, but it's disguise under this Umbrella of we're just seeking truth and we only want truth and historical record is playing that.

4:27 Joseph Smith, fought polygamy until the day he died. And then Brigham took over the church for power and polygamy and any Authority that the church had at the time died with Joseph Smith. So ultimately it is an attack on Authority and priesthood, right? Right. So why are they fighting so hard against priesthood? Right? Because that was something that Joseph revealed a ton about. Right? It's pretty hard for from a restorationist kind of standpoint. It's pretty hard to separate this idea of priesthood and and the restored gospel what is it about priesthood that they're not liking?

5:14 Right? So that's a really important question because it's not so much. Well, it is priesthood. It's like when I've had conversations with people and I start asking the hard questions and I flush out what they're really trying to tell me. It always comes down to that. This is about proving that the church doesn't have priesthood. That the church doesn't have authority, the Brigham Young, a serp The Authority because ultimately who they are promoting is Is this somebody else some other group? Some other person has Authority. Okay. And so it's ultimately about that. So, if you take out, Brigham Young, right, you don't just take out the, it's more of priesthood line of succession or priesthood passing on of a mantle to Brigham Young because if you take away that mantle and you take away Brigham Young, you don't just take away Authority priesthood but then you can take away.

6:13 Away any of the ordinances such as Temple ordinances and any other teaching or doctrine that they don't like that Joseph. The Brigham Young ultimately Unseal to us that he had received through Joseph Smith. I got you. It's amazing that that Brigham seems to be the linchpin in this whole thing right now. Certainly Joseph is you know the the head of the restoration but boy Brigham seems to be the linchpin that everybody wants to go after. And I don't know if that's because they don't like what Brigham taught, they don't like Bergens demeanor.

6:57 I just don't understand what what the Animus is towards that, man. I mean, he Hehehe leads, a people into the high mountain desert and carves out a civilization that would become one of the predominant cities certainly in the Western United States. And I would say it probably Rivals as far as culture and and Industry any other City within the United States. And so you think that a guy who was able to do that would be lauded but that's not the case. Oh yeah, definitely not. It's again, I think it comes down to. Okay, so we have a parallel going on here, right?

7:38 It's so after the death of Joseph Smith, you have everybody who's coveting, Brigham Young's presupposition, okay? Even before the Transfiguration of Brigham Young, he is the president of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles, right? That that responsibility to then lead the church, even if he's not Not even if you can say, he's not replacing Joseph Smith that that responsibility to lead the church bell on his shoulders, by virtue of the fact that he's president of the Quorum of The Twelve Apostles and the rest of the first presidency of Joseph Smith, right? They fell into apostasy William law. Joseph Smith actually cut Sidney Rigdon off from the church and 1843 people don't I do that that history has been clouded but he had written a letter to basically to the Our church and ask them to spread abroad that he wasn't going to sustain or support Sidney Rigdon anymore. So it came down to a bunch of men in Abu who coveted Brigham Young's presupposition and in order to basically try to take that preset away from him or the, you know, the idea that he's the rightful successor, they have to then attack him. And they attack him on the one doctrine that hadn't been introduced to the church as a whole yet. They can easily use to manipulate people with and that was the doctrine of plural marriage. Gotcha.

9:09 So who are the players involved is? It is it just in Griffin still? I mean who were the players involved here? That are really pushing this idea. That Joseph Smith didn't practice. Nor did he teach plural marriage. You know I like I like in my video I made Joseph Papp polygamy the resurrection of an old earliest narrative. Ultimately, the source is right, it comes. It's a resurrection of the old our lbs narrative so, but those pushing it today are the prominent leaders. In this movement, I'll say our number One never Snuffer. And then the doctrine of Christ leaders in the doctrine of Christ movement, which they've kind of mingle together now, right?

10:00 That would be Justin Griffin and there's also other leaders, why won't say leaders? I just lie there, the most vocal Whitney horning, she's also, she presents herself as a member of the LDS. Yes church. But she's converted to suffer is mm-hmm. And you know who Denver Snapper is I'm assuming? Yeah, yeah, okay. So Denver Snapper is so right. So she's presented. And when she I guess when she wrote her book revealing Joseph I don't know if you've heard of that book. I haven't.

10:43 Okay, so with me horning in 2019 as a member of the LDS church wrote a book called revealing Joseph. Where she take Cakes. Basically the same arguments from the earliest church and, and then writes in a book and and then presents it to write members of the church and starts converting them to this narrative. But while she's claiming to be a member of the church, she'd actually already spiritually left. The church and was converted to Denver Snapper. So she's been influential in the Joseph fought polygamy movement where she is actually converting email dies to that idea.

11:26 And so there's her. And then there's also Michelle Stone, who is still a practicing member of the church who has her podcast and I don't, I won't give the name, so because I'm not going to give her ever ties admit. But but she is mingled with, like, Justin Griffin and Whitney horny. Like she has. These are the people that she interviews on her podcast. She spoke at Justin Griffin's premier In on January 19th. So helping to promote his movie who killed Joseph Smith Park, three of who killed Joseph Smith will be on Brigham Young taking over with the church for power and polygamy and trying to prove that polygamy started with Brigham Young that Joseph Smith.

12:20 So what kind of not going away, right, right. What kind of facts are they using to back this argument up? All right, well actually, they just fax is a loose term. Oh my God, what what kind of what do they purport is evidence? How's that? Oh, that's a good question. Shin so it so, okay. So you have to understand the history, which I'm assuming you do plural marriage in novel and what was going on. So I'll just go over a few things like so it's interesting whenever I See the debate on social media. Over the Joseph Papp polygamy, it's the same recycled quotes over and over again that they keep it's like they keep pounding the same key and they plan on paper people's ignorance. So the three quotes that they use are where Joseph Smith said, what a thing it is to be accused of committing adultery and having seven wives when I can finally one. And I want to talk about that because that is only a small part.

13:26 Part of a larger sermon, okay? When you extrapolate one sentence from an entire sermon, you can twist it to make people believe whatever you want. Right? Right. So that's one of the arguments, is that quote, then they take their from the Joseph Smith papers, they take original Source document And they, they try to show that they were changed. But again, we need to talk about that too, because when you actually get down to the heart of it, they weren't changed the way they think that they were changed.

14:08 Okay, those are. Those are the made two arguments, and then of course, they use quotes that either have been debunked or aren't reliable their secondhand quotes or their coats from Like unsourced quotes, for example, take a quote supposably that came from. Phoebe book of a drift that says she that basically says that she preaches in public, that polygamy is a true Doctrine but she actually hates it and she only does it so she's not thrown out of the street. Wow. And then, but but when you get to the source of that quote, it was actually printed in the anti-polygamy standard and it was from an anonymous source.

14:54 So it's not even a reliable quote and then we would excuse me. I was just saying, no, it's not, it's pretty. It sounds like it's pretty shoddy history, right? But then when you actually read TV woodruff's autobiography, she's bearing a powerful. Witness of the truthfulness of plural, marriage. And how she received her testimony and then it came from Joseph Smith. So there's it just plays on people's either ignorance of history or and they are emotions. And then and they themselves aren't even fact checking their own quotes that they use. Okay. All right. So let's talk about the context because that wouldn't you quoted of Joseph Smith where he says, you know, what a thing it is for a man to be accused of having seven wives, when I can find only one Let's talk about the greater context there.

15:44 What was you said that they took out that one little line and really narrowed in on it? What was the larger context of what it was? He was speaking about there then. Okay, I'm just going to pull up some notes here so we kind of have to understand what was going on in Abu at the time, right? So you have Joseph Smith. He's first trying to introduce our marriage in Malibu, he and, and the Lord tell basically, for forbids For making a public, right? Right. And so, so if you look at that section 132, when the Lord is actually revealing the doctrine to Joseph Smith, what did he say?

16:28 Joseph Smith says he received the Revelation, because he walked he was inquiring on the Lord to understand what Justified his servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of having more than one wife. And so, how does the Lord respond to Joseph Smith? He says, As prepare your mind right? Right it. So number one, it requires a person to prepare their mind to receive an understanding or knowledge of of this Doctrine. And so as the Lord is, then now commanding Joseph Smith. Okay, he's received this Revelation in 1831 actually and then the word finally says, okay, it's time To introduce it, right? It's time to start living it as a people. So, in Abu, he's not revealing it to the church, as a whole, he's revealing it to those whose Minds have been prepared to receive it.

17:23 Okay. Right. So it's on an individual confidential basis one-on-one with men, who have not only proven themselves faithful, but who were spiritually ready to receive this additional light and knowledge, right? Okay, yep. Okay, so I just want to get the whole background because no, I think this is great. Okay. So because it tells a completely different story when you have like the whole background. So as Joseph Smith is introducing this Doctrine again through private interviews and confidential means he's then. Of course, you get you start to get the rumors out there of other men.

18:10 Who have got gotten wind of this Doctrine and then they start teaching it. Right there, eating teaching at themselves, according to their own understanding, or you have like, John seabed, that right, who takes the doctrine, and he twists it. And he uses it to his Advantage by saying, Joseph has has sanctioned this practice, and then he's using it to seduce women for his own purposes. Classy. Right. So we we have John C Bennett. Spiritual wife is MM, which is completely It's it's not I won't even say it's a counterfeit.

18:52 It's it's it's I practice of his own make, right? He's going to women. He's saying this is what Joseph Smith doing, and then they, he's not even marrying these women. He's just seducing them right in saying, it's okay because we're spiritually married. So, and not just a complete Abomination to what the doctrine of celestial /? Married was sure, but you have hand, right? And so then Joseph Smith is going around and he's like saying if any Elders top preaching, you're practicing for marriage, he will be cut off of the Church. So why is he saying that? Because there was no Elder that had the authority to preach or practice plural, marriage without Joseph Smith, the doorway right?

19:37 Right and dr. Covenants section 132 it says on this law, what is that law? That only the one who held the authority could teach it and and then could reveal it and then it was by his. He could approve or disapprove any any plural, marriage, right? So so then you have so, right? So then you have these Elders thinking, oh, there's this new doctrine that says, by virtue of the priesthood. I can have as many wives as I please, so, then Joseph Smith is, like, having to correct that. No, this is not reset itself. Does not entitle you have more than one wife, right? You think it's based on a certain law by my authority and you don't have a right to teach this. So he's pretty, he's going through Nauvoo, trying to then. Correct with John C, Bennett's teaching. And then what these other Elders are teaching? Well, let me stop you right.

20:31 Yeah, that makes sense. Let me stop you right there. Because as you were saying that, I think we have historic precedents for when members of the church kind of took a Doctrine and just ran with it. Right? If you remember, when Joseph institute's baptisms for the dead, you know, they go down to the river and they just start going at it, right? And and Joseph's like slow your roll. We need to make sure that we're documenting this and that we have these things in order. So it's not an isolated incident, that members of The church here about a principle and just go for it. And then Joseph's got to come back and be like, take a breath. Let's do this, right. Right? And that's important point to bring up because they were the even with the baptisms for the dead.

21:15 They were like, women were being baptized for men and they're kind of like, no, no, there's an order for this. You, you know, like you said, we've got to make sure they're recorded, and we have to make sure that women are being has for women and has to be members of your family and things like that. So, yeah, he has to write. I think the Saints got, you know, like bless their hearts. They were like, okay, we're gonna just start obeying without understanding. That there's Bounds at the Lord has set. And, you know, there's a law, they have to follow, and so that's three. So that's another attack, right? That they make against Joseph Smith is, there's no way he would do something.

21:56 And what they say is secret, when it really wasn't secret, right? It was It was Private. Yeah, well we're not going to announce this to the world, right? Because these are sacred doctrines that we don't cast your Pearls Before Swine, right? And Jesus Christ didn't do that. He took, he took his Apostles up to the Mount of transfiguration, he taught them higher laws and he said don't make these known until after I've resurrected and so Joseph Smith. The same thing. We are not going to announce this to the world. Right. We're not going to know this to the public or even the church as a whole. Whose Minds have not been prepared to receive these things. No secrets, right?

22:40 Right. Who's prepared to right? Yep. You know, I think, yeah, I think the other thing here too, is that there's a reason. The Lord told him to keep that kind on the DL. For a little while, Joseph was almost killed several times, just for saying Hey, look there's there's another book of scripture here, right? That was that was bad enough, but when you now go in and start, upsetting Victorian sensibilities. I mean that would have set the whole place on fire and ultimately did. Right? I mean, even even the Saints moving outside, the United States did not stop the oppression from happening once once everybody found out about it. Right.

23:29 Well, founded fear, right? And and even when you read the stories of the men, and the women who Joseph Smith is teaching this to, you have like women who are like well, this is repugnant to my sensibilities and and then Joseph is saying, will you go and receive a testimony, right? And so you have feminine who are then they're taught the principle by Joseph Smith and then they actually have to receive their own witness. Yep. And they go. They it's not none of them a great. Like, we have this idea that these women were just coerced or they were duped, but when you actually get to the heart of it and these women, they go and they they know, Joseph Smith's at your profit, they know he's not going to teach any doctrine that is contrary to the order of heaven. And then they go with that faith and they pray, and they don't just receive an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost, many of them receive Angelic, visitation. They are they receive Visions, they have the heavens opened, they're shown far to Eternity, they come back and they say, I know this is from God and then they enter into the practice with full knowledge, full use of their agency. So anyway, getting back to like, think about leading up to that quote, right?

24:50 Yeah. So so that's why it was so important to Joseph Smith that not any other. Is out just publicizing this Doctrine to the world. Is trying to teach it for themselves, according to their own understanding, right? It's like this has to be done. In the correct way. And ultimately, by Joseph Smith, Who had, who was the one who held the key, right? That could that knew who were who was prepared, but then also who the Lord had commanded to practice it because not, everybody was commanded to practice it, right? And even Joseph Smith, when he was commanded to take four wives, the lord gave him the names of the women.

25:32 It wasn't just women. He was like, oh, she's pretty. Right. It's the Lord said, these are the specific women that need to enter into this order with you. So then we have so there. I think the first part marriage enough view was in 1841 and then so he's and that was personally with Joseph Smith and Louisa Beeman but then you know, at the same time he's then sealing other men to more than one wife. and then, finally, Hyrum Smith for a time.

26:13 It's important understand the higher Smith for a time. He did fight against the principle until he learned for himself that it was true. And then he, That Was Then he became like the biggest advocate for plural marriage. And he got really excited to teach the doctrine and so he introduces it to the novel. How Council in 1843 And after he entered his visit to the novel High Council, there were two men specifically that not only rejected it but got very angry and bitter over it. William law and William Marks.

26:54 Hmm. Your are you familiar with this history? I'm familiar with William law but not marks. Yeah. So William Marks he was he was, he was, he did Nabu High Council president. He became conflicted and William, especially it William law, and his wife became extremely conflicted. And so, William law is like he goes to Joe. So he and he was introduced by Hiram. He asked her if he could, if he could have a copy, the Revelation and him, and his wife could read and ponder, it, They took it and they read it and pondered it. This is according to William Moss diary, so and then he, they don't accept it, they completely reject. It, it was like their minds become darkened, I'm sure through other sins, but their minds have become darkened and they're not only like this isn't a true Doctrine there. Now that he now seeks to fight against that. He goes to Joseph Smith and he's like, so William laws, like begging Joseph Smith not to introduce it. Right.

28:02 And he says, and then he tells them. If you do not introduce this we will become the largest Christian Church. The world has ever seen. And Joseph is like well that's not the purpose right? It's not about becoming the most popular right? He's like I have to introduce this or we will be damned as a people and then ever since then William blah became Joseph Smith's, biggest Evan enemy and he went behind his back and And he riled up a group of 200 Saints in Nauvoo and they entered into an oath to take Joseph. Smith's life. So and Joseph Smith became aware of this both because to Brave young men Denison, L Harris and right, Robert Scott, they were part of those secret meetings.

28:58 They go back and tell Joseph Smith what was going on? So he's aware. So we have to understand that. Joseph Smith knew That the, the there were these leading man in Nauvoo and I can give you the name, let me give you the name. So it wasn't just William W important to know all of the names. So the leaders of this plot to kill Joseph Smith were Chauncey L, higbee, already Foster, Joseph, H Jackson, William blah, Wilson, law and Austin cows. Now, William are like I said, he became bitter over but he from my research I can't see that he was part of this plot, okay?

29:42 Although he never accepted the doctrine and he didn't ever accept the ordained leadership of Brigham Young. But those were the those were the leaders of this plot to kill Joseph Smith and it was like I said, in the spring of 1844 And Joseph Smith became aware of this so he knows and so William law. And so again he had got he got a Joseph begged him not to teach and of course, like I said, Joseph Smith's like I have to or I'll be down with my people and so William law, decides to expose it, To the public opinion. Right. So what does he do? He dragged.

30:23 He basically well, first of all before that. So I'm getting ahead of myself, I have to back up because this this Parts important. So before that Heathen charges Joseph Smith with adultery, he takes him to Carthage court and charges him with adultery because in the state of Illinois, Obviously, having more than one Legal Wife was against the law and it would be looked upon as criminal, right? So, in order for William luck, let's try to stop this law, right? Stop the teaching of plural, marriage. He he takes Joseph Smith, the court and so obviously Joseph Smith, the nicest denies the charge in court. I think he's acquitted or it doesn't even go to trial or anything and obviously that's going to anger, William law. And so It josaphat.

31:13 He comes back to Nauvoo, right? He's the mayor of Nauvoo. He has to answer for this charge. He gets there's a public address called the address to the dissenters of Nauvoo where he basically openly refutes the charge of adultery. So remember he's being charged with adultery. That's what William Moss trying to charge him with his adultery. so, then you go and so he So his this this declaration, he gives he gives us declaration or this sermon called address of the Prophet testimony against the dissenters, on the Navajo. He gives us public address on March 26. 1844 and he he basically says, I can prove lien laws approach her and that he's transformed a truth into a lie and then he goes on and he gives this sermon and he says, and I And I quote it if that's okay. Yeah, absolutely.

32:17 Okay because he says So he starts out and he says, I had not been scarcely. I have not been married scarcely, five minutes and made one proclamation of the Gospel before it was reported that I had seven wives. So he think of that statement. Well, that's true, right. He had it, he didn't have seven wives 3:05 married right to Emma, right? Yeah. And then he says, I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can. So what is he saying? He knows that that William law has entered into an oath. So he's then going to deny the charge because he wants to live as long as he can to proclaim the truth.

32:59 Right? And then he says this new holy prophet, William law has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery this spiritual wife, is mmm. So what is he denying? Adultery and spiritual wife is mmm. Right. And right, telling us this he's denying, he's being charged with adultery and spiritual wife is in which he is not practicing. Okay, right, right. He doesn't say anything about Celestial plural, marriage. He's just talking about. Spiritual wife, is MM and adults, right? Okay, right.

33:39 Because William law is trying to get him to stop teaching for marriage. So he's going out there and he's transforming a truth into a lie. St. Joseph Smith is guilty of adultery that he's practicing the same spiritual wife, Doctrine is jhansi Bennett witch everyone at that time knew. How bad that was how evil it was. Right? Right. He has he been at was seducing women, he was a boarding. He was a doctor, so he was a boarding, any children that were produced from those ml cheese. No fornication, right? So yeah, I'm not guilty of this. I'm not guilty of adultery, I'm not guilty of spiritual. Life is MM, and he goes on and says why, a man there's not speaker wing for fear of being accused of this.

34:24 A man has asked me whether the Commandment was given that a man may have seven wives and now the new Prophet has charged me with adultery. So again, Celestial marriage. Wasn't that's not what special married. Was that a Commandment? That a man can have seven wives that wasn't what the doctor was a math, I can go out and get seven why's that. So again, he's very, he's very specific in his wording and they goes on. I never had any fuss with these men until the female released Society brought out the paper against adulterers and adulteresses. But we can talk about that in a minute, dr. Golf Course was invited into the loss. Click and dr.

35:06 Foster Foster. And the click were dispatched as dissatisfied with that document. So right there, he's making reference to the leaders of the plot, right. Wow, he specifically mentions them dr. Foster and laws click William walls. Gonna know what click he's talking about. He's talking about those two hundred men. Who had entered into an old, you take his life and then he go, he goes on to say and they rushed away and leave the church and conspire to take away my life. And because I will not countenance, such wickedness, they Proclaim that I have been a true Prophet. But now, I am a fallen profit.

35:47 What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery and having seven wives again referring back to the doctrine of having seven wives, right? He says When I can find only one close quote. Hmm. And so not only that, is that he only had one Legal Wife, right? According to the state of Illinois, Joseph Smith only had one The Legal Wife. so, He's what is he speaking to? I can only find one wife. Will, what is the only one wife? He can find his one Legal Wife?

36:28 Emma, because other, right? So, the, so, his poor wives were given to him by God, by God's Authority, and he was not answering to man for wives, given to him under Another Authority. The didn't belong to, man, if that makes sense. No, I makes perfect sense. Though. Oh, go ahead. So, what is just going to follow up with with instead? Hey, is that? That's that's the main quote. They use to Proclaim that Joseph Smith was fighting against former marriage. When he wasn't fighting against her marriage, he was fighting against the charges of adultery with that quote. Gotcha, gotcha.

37:22 So let me ask you this Kimberly and maybe you could shed some light on this because this is something I always wondered about William law because he seems to be the guy who is really both the the brains behind The outfit and kind of the the the the guy who gets everybody else realm up the kind of the guy who starts it all, why doesn't he just either, leave the church or Proclaim that Joseph Allah and prophet and start his own. Why do you suppose he went to such lengths to make sure that Joseph Smith didn't make it out of there. That's a good question.

38:06 So if you actually look at the history, if I could, if we could have a little bit more history and William, all, which I think is important because it sheds a light on an important principle that if William law had actually was actually committing adultery who and so what happens, what happens when you start committing adultery your mind becomes dark, dark, So now only had time to come to darken but then he's right, he's under the power of who Satan. Satan right. Yep. Right, so, before this law was introduced, he was actually. And that was one of the reasons he was actually excommunicated was because he was committing adultery. And so it's interesting because he'd actually written in his his journal, which tells you Kind of his state of mind. He says, quote, if an angel from heaven was to reveal to me that a man should have more than one wife, and if it were in my power, I would kill him.

39:14 He says that in his journal. So, is he saying he would kill an angel of God? Right? Murder in his heart. It was not a good man. He was not just angry about their marriage, he was under the influence and the power of the adversary because they had already broken his covenants. He'd already committed a really heinous sin and so then Satan took advantage and use Cham to to try to destroy Joseph Smith. You know, I think that there is a really important lesson for all of us.

39:56 Of us there who, who adhere to to the gospel. And that is, when you start just fine, your own sins, it doesn't just stop there, right? There's going to be spillover effect, that's going to darken your heart. That's going to allow you to be susceptible to those changed chains with the which the adversary seeks to bind us in. And those chains aren't, it's not a passive. Thing right? It's not like you're your progression. Is just damned at that point. This is a regression and it's a regression back into darkness and I think William law is probably a great example of that and should be a cautionary tale for the rest of us.

40:42 Because if we slide down that slope, There there is no just stopping, you're either moving forward or backwards and backwards, in this case leads to just darkness and nasty nasty things. Right. Yeah, and I Thursday, I'm trying to look really quickly. There's a scripture in Doctrine and Covenants that that says that if you do commit adultery that you will deny the faith. Hmm. So that's, I mean, that's just a principle of the Gospel, so, right? So we have to be very, very careful. To watch our words, thoughts and deeds, commit adultery or were lusting after You know, women or men, that aren't our spouses.

41:28 We like, what the scripture says, we will be in danger of denying the faith. And so you can kind of see like, you know, William law, he's a member of the first presidency, right? So he had a lot of light and knowledge. Yeah. And so the greater light, the greater the condemnation and write the greater power of the adversary has over you. He is literally in the hands of the adversary whose put murder in his heart. Art. He seeks to destroy Joseph Smith. He seeks to destroy right. This Basically this Doctrine, he seeks to destroy the entire church.

42:09 And yeah, so it's pretty serious. It's if you really look into the history of this instead of, right? Just believing a reinterpretation of the history like William law is the bad guy here. It's not Brigham Young, right right. And for a lot of this history, if I'm not mistaken and you can correct me if I'm wrong here, Brigham's, not even on scene, he's in England, right? He's in Europe. Right. Well, he was actually in the eastern states eastern states.

42:50 Excuse me, at this time, right campaigning for Joseph Smith. And we're going there. The other apostles were, I think we're over near if I'm not mistaken. But yeah, he wasn't even on the scene here. This was all unfolding. What Brigham Young and the other Apostles are away. So you could imagine. So, not only that. So imagine Joseph Smith he's again, he, he has to keep the church together. He's being, you know, he has his Rogue for, you know, William law. Trying to expose him, not only to the church as a whole, but Joseph Smith is the mayor of Nauvoo. He's been exposed to like it wasn't just members of the church that lived in Nauvoo.

43:37 It was the largest thriving City in the entire state of Illinois. Yeah. Larger than Chicago at that to, you know, you have to write you actually, he had to answer to the people who aren't even members of the faith. Hey, look, I'm not guilty of adultery. I only have one legal, why, you know, he's trying Say that I have all these, why they don't have meaning legal wives, right? Right. I'm not breaking the law of the state of Illinois. I'm and then not only that, you have extradition orders still in place in Missouri. If Joseph Smith were committed of a crime, he could have been dragged back to Missouri, just on that basis alone, which, but they know, we know that the missourians have been trying to kill him and, you know, Over 10 years.

44:27 So he was in a he was in a situation where he was not only trying to protect himself at the time, but most he was trying to protect the Saints and I think that's what we need to understand. This wasn't Joseph Smith, making a public declaration against Against poor marriage and lying. He was denying what he was being accused of which was adultery and spiritual life is MM. Wow. Yeah, yeah. And, and that never comes out, right? And and really like you said, unless you understand the history, you're not going to get that full effect. You're not going to understand right? What Joseph is saying. Much less the history on Law and marks, right?

45:09 Because if you don't understand that where they're coming from Good Luck, Right. And so, the reason why this quote is so important understand is because in the Joseph Papp polygamy movement, what, what they do is again, they take that one extrapolated sentence, and then they put it on a meme or they repost it, and they say it like Jonah. Do you believe Joseph Smith practice polygamy? Then you'd have to believe he was a liar and I choose to believe he's telling the truth and so they make it about this almost like you know they play on people's emotions and No, look, I'm so righteous that I will not believe that he's telling this lie and then there's other people just read it and write it's kind of like a false dilemma here, right?

45:55 Well if I book and tells us that practice polygamy that I have to believe he was lying here when he said this, when they don't even understand context and they don't understand history, and they don't understand, you know, they don't understand anything that had happened up until that quote or anything after. And so it's just it's a very Little bit of tactic to use sure. And it and it really does suck in people who are just quite frankly or ignorant of the true facts and the true history, right? Let me ask you this because this is something I'm genuinely curious about and I don't know if maybe because I know you have had interactions with some of these folks.

46:42 Do you think this is something that kind of the all those who are front and center on this movement movement? Do you think they actually believe this or do you think they have a different axe to grind in? This is the outlet. I believe that. The leaders of this movement. Have an axe to grind. And I do, unfortunately, feel like that there are, there are a lot of innocent victims, right? That are just victims of an agenda and a false information in a false history that they've been fed. But as far as the leaders of the Joseph polygamy, Movement, Like Denver Snuffer, Justin Griffin with his movies and part three, that he's going to come out with it, which will all be about Joseph fighting polygamy and those that write the books like Whitney horning in Richard Karen. That wrote a book, The exoneration of Joseph and Emma. These are not honest people, right? And they do have an ax to grind not with just not with just the church but with Brigham Young with certain doctors of the church, they all reject Temple ordinances. Hmm, all of them.

48:11 They, they're not just rejecting right. Like, I know, like we may disagree with with if the LDS church has keys or not, but they're not just rejecting the idea. The LDS church doesn't have keys are three, they're saying Temple. Ordinances are a satanic invention of Brigham Young. We don't believe in Temple ordinances, we don't even believe that. That there was ever priesthood Authority in the church. We don't believe, right? They don't believe in Melchizedek priesthood anymore so it's not just we don't believe in polygamy and these are implications. We have to consider because you it's there they go. Hand in hand.

48:51 If you reject polygamy, you're going to reject Temple ordinances. Because they came to us, Because of Brigham Young, right? Right, it was Brigham Young. Who right Joseph Smith? Unfortunately died before he could reveal him to the church. So, Brigham Young revealed him to the church and so then they reject Temple ordinances. Well, then you reject your ceiling your family selling you protect, you reject your marriage, telling you reject. All of all of those things that are part of the restoration, right? I think I made this point before when you and I talked about a year ago which is, it's the same tactic that we've seen with the founding fathers of the United States, if you can discredit the member or not the member but the founders you can then discredit everything that the founders did right now in this case that they definitely are trying to discredit Brigham Young but they are not I'm setting up a much different Joseph Smith, right then then what history bears and it's not a man that I think for those who are well versed in Joseph Smith would ever recognize right.

50:03 The so in some ways they are going after Joseph Smith his true character and they wish to replace him with something that I don't know. Quite frankly, as you're going through the, the implications of Going after Brigham and rewriting Joseph's history. Just as you stated the, the natural outgrowth is a church that looks nothing like the restoration. It is anything that was distinctly Mormon about. That is gone. And it's so so Insidious. All right, let me ask you this question, why we're talking about about, you know, folks like Griffin and whatnot. And in a year of doing this podcast, I've done a couple episodes which have really required me to do a lot of research.

50:58 And what I found is that if you can figure out how someone is getting the money, you can usually get to the bottom of who is really At the source of this thing. Even a movie like the one, Justin Griffis Griffin puts out. It's not cheap to make. Where's he getting his funding? Do you know, have you heard? So like I couldn't confirm this like with absolute certainty. I what what people have reached out to me to tell me is that, especially his first movie was funded by A couple that are leading.

51:46 How would you say leading members of the dimmer stuff for movement? Okay. All right. So, you kind of like they were the, the top contributor of who killed Joseph Smith if I can Financial, contributor. And so that's why I say that. So the doctor Christ movement and the divorce of her movement are kind of separate. But they've now mingled together. And of course they have the same agenda. So they support these Acts that are helping to advance their narrative. Ultimately an attack on Brigham Young which is attacking priesthood and authority. And any doctrine of the restoration that they don't want to accept that has actually come from Joseph from Joseph Smith? Yeah, right, like not just Temple ordinances but we're talking, you know, like Preston restoration, so many people. I've heard so many people say, they don't even believe that ironic priesthood was restored through Joseph Smith. It's crazy, like not like you'll get so many people like varying degrees of what they've rejected now. Like, everything from the aaronic priesthood, two doctorates sections in the doctrine of covenants. They they'll they take the sections that they like or Even just versus they like this is inspired, but these sections are inspired.

53:15 They've rejected the book of Abraham. Well, a lot of them just there's so much. It's really, it's fascinating at the same time to watch like it all there. Just unraveling everything, like you said, they're taking down the foundation, one doctrine of the time, but I polygamy is like the theological weapon. So at the end of the day, it's not about polygamy. Me, because right, like if you're a Main Street member of the church, like I am technically you're not expected to live it, right? You're not asking as mainstream, right? So they're not asked to live it, so it's not really about polygamy per se, it's that you can use that as a theological and a historical weapon to, then attack the foundation and take away doctrines.

54:06 You don't like and then Build Your Own Foundation. And then using the smith name to do it. And and I feel like plural. Marriage is one of those things. That would be very easy to weaponize because it is, it's tough, right? I mean, it's tough. In the sense of wrapping your arms around it, right? And and it's, it's really easy to turn that into the weapon because it does tug at the hearts of them. What and and I suppose if someone was already struggling with their testimony of those things, if someone Was to come along and go. Oh, you can have the restoration without that. You just have to buy into these other Concepts. That's probably a pretty attractive offer. Right.

54:50 It's really attractive because to them all you need is a broken heart and a contrite spirit. That's all you need, right? That listen to them, I don't know if you're familiar with your Doctrine, I am they've taken away. Even even baptism well if I have a broken heart and a contrite spirit Christ is going to baptize me with with his authority and then there's not even the ordinate, the actual ordinate physical ordinance anymore, right? And so, how nice is that? Oh, I just have a contract. Broken heart, contrite spirit. Well, what does that even look like? And then you can Define any way you want and just taken away. Like you don't even have Joseph Smith anymore, who like, is teaching us, physical.

55:32 Baptism that you're teaching a physical ordinance as the spine, right. That you're entering into a covenant. They're just it's, it's just fascinating to watch like it's heartbreaking, but it's like almost mind-blowing how much people are willing to reject over this one doctrine that they just haven't. They don't have an understanding of Right? Well, let me ask you this Kimberly, how successful have they been as far as getting people out of the church? Or I would even call it restored gospel at this point, right? Because, look, I'll be honest. My son approached me with this.

56:15 Just, I don't know, probably a month ago and we sat down and had a great, big, long history lesson. And I thought, well, one way or another, he's going to know that this is wrong, it's either going to he's going to pick up the histories like I'm never bringing that up again because Dad won't shut up. But one way or another, this affects all of our kids, right? If if those who believe that the mantle fell to Brigham Young All of our kids are on on the line, on this one and it I just feel like it's so important that we get that out. How successful have they been overall? I would say it is the largest growing movement. And the most successful movement to destroy the church. And when I say church, I'm saying restoration sure, no, I get you right.

57:11 So it is the I watched this since 2020. I've been like just observing people that I never thought in my life would fall for this movement are entrenched in it. Like it is Is it has? It is just crazy. I don't even have the words to describe. Like, stalwart Defenders of Joseph Smith at one time, who had, what will it look like a testimony are now fighting against almost every part of, you know, their, their Heritage essentially, because religion is a Heritage, right?

58:02 And, you know, if you want to talk about, So from my perspective, maybe if you want to get into this or not, I don't know if you do but this isn't just a historical debate because history is just history, there's a Doctrine behind their marriage, that is actually very beautiful. And, and if people just understood the doctrine and and realizing that her marriage is not a black mark on our history. It wasn't a mistake that Brigham Young just misunderstood or he got it wrong. We are talking about men and women. Who made the ultimate sacrifice by being obedient to a covenant? That none of us II.

58:56 Don't believe any of us would have been willing to at that time being persecuted their entire lives. In order to re-establish, not only the house of Israel in the last days put to re-establish, The Chosen bloodline through which the priesthood is not only restored, but then propagated on the earth in such a way that it will never be taken off the Earth again, and, and we But we actually have them to think instead of spitting in their face, slapping them over the face. Right. Tearing down their character, accusing them of all manner of sin and wickedness. and it's just astounding to me that we have at this point where we could actually Right.

59:46 Turn our backs on everything that they that we've received through them, right? We're living, we're eating the fruits of Brigham Young's labor and when I say Brigham Young, I'm talking about. All those that stayed faithful to him, right? So all of those that through persecution that, you know, plural marriage wasn't easy, they were persecuted not from the government but even even in Utah Church members persecuted them, only 20% of the church ever were faithful to Celestial marriage. So they're persecuted From Within A persecuted by the government. They stay true and faithful so that the blessings of the abrahamic, covenant could be passed down to their posterity. So that, you know, Israel could be restored. So the, you know what, all of the covenants and all the promises given to Abraham and his seed ancient lie. So God can do Bilbo's, those prophecies and then we turn around and we say, no, thank you. Yeah, this is icky gross to us because I've been told it was a king growth and I haven't even searched the scriptures to find out what's true and what's not, you know, it just it breaks my heart like it just really breaks my heart, you know, and that's just it.

1:01:04 We, as Mormons of every stripe, almost every stripe. We tend to pay homage a lot. Two to our ancestors, I should say their ancestors. I'm the first Mormon ever of any stripe in my family. However, Even I get a sense of what they endured, right? And it amazes me because I'm with you you're talking about a people. Let's let's start without plural marriage, right? Who sign up for this new American religion. From a man who doesn't have formal education which is nuts in those days, right? Normally your your preachers are coming out of Harvard and those types of schools.

1:01:52 You move several several times. Plural marriage is taught those who live. It are like you said were persecuted from within and from without and today. I don't know what the numbers are, but today and Utah, I'd be curious to see how many men and women are. Descendants of that practice, right? And their progenitors laid everything out on the line for this. Not just plural, marriage, but the gospel waited all on the line they sold out. They cashed their chips in and said, you know what I'm all-in.

1:02:33 To, to be able to turn around and, and then say now, you know what, they didn't have it, right? Who that's a, that's a bold claim. Right. Yeah, that is a bold claim and you say, you're, like the first generation, Mormon, but one thing we don't understand about for marriage. It's it's the Everlasting Covenant. Yep, K. And, and I really would like to talk about the doctrine of it. If please, I would love to, I don't know if you want to get into that right now. Yeah, let's let's do it. But it's essentially the Everlasting Covenant. And so when you Or anyone has been adopted into the Covenant through baptism.

1:03:20 So you're adopted into the cup of it through baptism. Right? So they so the founder of our of our of our faith Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, they have reached, they have re-established, the Everlasting Covenant. So I want to talk about that and go back to because they call it the new and Everlasting Covenant but it's It's Everlasting and they brought back ancient lie, but it's new to this dispensation, right? Okay. So they've re-establish, the Everlasting Covenant. We're going to talk about what that is, and then you and I or anybody that's then through, baptism and through stealing in the temple, are not only adopted into that Covenant, but they are still two that bloodline for eternity. Yep, from generation to generation. Yep.

1:04:12 So without About that Foundation. None of us could receive any of the blessings of the abrahamic, Covenant. So what happens if we're going to cut our self off? Okay, so, if you want to talk about you is it okay to discuss a little bit of the doctrine of it? Please do look Kimberly. I'm going to level with you here and I'm going to level with you on to things that that I haven't talked about before on the podcast. I've kind of done my best to stay away from plural marriage because everyone says well you're a fundamentalist Dave, of course you have Have a dog in that fight, right? So it carries less weight from me. So when someone like yourself who's active LDS has a testimony of this.

1:05:04 I think it carries more weight. The other thing I'll say and this is breaking news now, As of last weekend I am practicing the plinth principle again, right? So now I have a double Dokken fight and and so yeah, I definitely want to tackle this and I feel like that this is the perfect place to do it because you always have your facts straight and you're a rock star and it's just time. And if we're going to, if we're going to debunk, what what the other side is saying, we have to get into the doctrine. Have to show why it's so important and we have to, to illuminate it and bring it in some ways plural. Marriage, I've always said, it's kind of like the crazy uncle that shows up for Thanksgiving.

1:05:59 Nobody likes talking to him, right? Because you just know, at some point. It's going to get uncomfortable. But this is a beautiful Doctrine. This isn't a doctrine that we should be ashamed of. We should own this. We should 100% owned this. So yeah, let's break it down. Okay so just leading up to that if I could just quickly share my story. Yeah. Of how I came to have a testimony of it. Yeah. Because I think it's important because so like you say like your fundamentalist, I mainstream LDS right? And so right, why do I need a testimony of it? Why do I have a testimony of it?

1:06:41 Well, I can remember back in 2016, so So, well first of all, it's important to understand. So I was born in the church but I was raised in a very inactive home, okay? So the gospel wasn't something that was just handed to me. I wasn't you know, I wasn't taught in my home, you know I was baptized today and then it was like I you know church was whenever I could get their kind of thing because I my parents didn't take me to church. Okay. So I just want to understand that like this isn't just because I've been a Used of all, you're just, you know, false Traditions handed down by your feet. You know, like, I've every accusations been thrown at me to try to discredit like my testimony of not just for marriage, but of of the church in general or any part of the Gospel. So just want to make it clear.

1:07:34 So this wasn't just a faith that was handed to me that I didn't have to work for. It was actually something I had to work at. I had to search out. What is this? What is this? Fate. What is my faith? You know and so took a lot of years of searching I I never I knew that her marriage was part of our history you know a lot of people want to say in the mainstream LDS. I was never taught this. I didn't know that Joseph Smith had more than one wife and so then then they have this Faith crisis when they find out he did that wasn't the case for me I knew Joseph, like I read working Lori when I was in high school trying to look again trying to learn about my faith so I could gain my own testimony but it wasn't really until 2016.

1:08:24 When I was watching a documentary from the Joseph Smith, foundation called Joseph Smith more than you know and the documentary has nothing to do with poor marriage at all. It's a documentary about Joseph Smith. But in that documentary, you know, they were sharing quotes that came from Brigham Young. And I received an undeniable witness that Brigham Young was the living witness of Joseph Smith. And then if I wanted my own living witness of Joseph Smith, I also needed to have not just a testimony bit of knowledge of all of the revelations that hearing he revealed, including section 132, the doctrine of covenants. So I have been studying this Doctrine since 2016. And through that study, I have gained an Unbreakable firm steadfast testimony section 132 of the doctrine of covenants of the historical practice of plural marriage and and why it was essential For the Salvation of the world, essentially. Well, I can't wait to hear this.

1:09:43 Share a little bit of what I learned in my journey. Yeah, and I do want to say that I am pathetic empathize with women in the church, because I was there to it, right? I like this. It's one thing to say, It's one thing to say, yeah it's fine, the Joseph Smith and Brigham Young lived it, but it's another thing to actually live it, right? And and so I can empathize with women who it like quite frankly scares The Living Daylights out of them and that's why so many people are drawn with this new This new movement because like you said, they can have Mormonism without her marriage and so instead of grappling with what that Doctrine is they it's just easier and so I really understand that and I my heart is goes out to those women and I just want them to know that it's okay.

1:10:42 And it's actually something that is very beautiful and that we can be proud of of our Ian, we can be proud of the founders of our faith and we can look up to the women of the restoration, as our nursing mothers, and we can be thankful for what they did for us. Does that make sense? Yep, so kind of wood leading in to just talking about. You know, why was plural marriage restored, in Nauvoo, right? Why why is that? Such an important Doctrine. Like, it's it's pretty much the Capstone of the, of, the restoration, right?

1:11:26 So we'll just go back, I'll try to do it justice case because it's it's hard. It's hard to teach this. but, So the Everlasting Covenant, her marriage is like I said it in the scriptures and 132 it's called the new and Everlasting Covenant. But everywhere else throughout scripture, it's called the Everlasting Covenant. So why is it called in 132, the new and Everlasting, Covenant? Because like I said, it's new again for this dispensation, right? But we have to understand that it's the Everlasting Covenant. So, what I did, and how I started to understand or learn about plumber Read.

1:12:07 As I went through an entire word search in all of the books of scriptures on Everlasting Covenant, And so that actually takes us back to Adam. but the sake of brevity we're going to start with, with We'll start with Abraham. That's okay, that's great. Okay, so so in obvious in so in Genesis 17 1 through 7 and I won't read all that one through seven, but at the end of verse 7, the Lord says to Abraham, I will establish my Covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an Everlasting Covenant.

1:12:57 To be a god unto thee. And to thy seed after thee, Okay. So this is where we say that, you know, John Abraham is the father of our of the Covenant. Yep. So that's why it's, let's just start with him. So here this is where God, he's established that Everlasting, Covenant Everlasting is From generation to generation. Yeah forever I'm breakable. So we got to kind of so what is this Everlasting? Covenant, he's just established with with Abraham and not with just Abraham but it says with thee and thy seed, after thee, right? Right.

1:13:40 So it's with him and his seed. What is seed, is Chill posterity? Yes, children? Right K. So the terms of the Covenant are Pretty simple. He would have the Abraham would have endless posterity, right? We know. Yep. Are they abrahamic Covenant? And at the priesthood would be held only by the Seed of Abraham. Okay. Yep. So that was all part of that Covenant, right? So we're talking that. So if you want the priesthood you have to be from Abraham, you have to be one of Abraham. Okay, so it's a single Covenant that God established as with Abraham and then he re-established a new with every righteous Patriarch, right, right? Every racist.

1:14:37 Patriarch after Abraham and every righteous patriarch after Abraham is also the seat of it. Yep. The Seed of Abraham, okay. And so that's important to understand. So, here, God is established, not just a family. That's why we call it the house of Israel. It's the house of Israel. Who is the house of Jacob. And if it's your house, ain't that your family, your kids, Kingdom, he's established here is a kingdom of Fathers and Sons. Who will have the Everlasting priesthood with their seed forever and ever right. That means right makes total sense to me. Yep, I'm following it okay which is surprising I am slow so I appreciate you checking with me now. I know you understand I'm just no no your good honestly I'm glad you're asking because I Yeah, as you can tell, I asked a ton of questions Kimberly I'm glad you're checking with me. so, When you do every time that you have ever lasted. Now there's other places in Genesis that has the, has the word Everlasting Covenant.

1:15:50 And every time it's always repeatedly associated with posterity, right? Okay, so how do you then carry on like a covenant? It's passed down, and just like in dr. Covenants, 107. And it says, the priest that is passed down. How From father to son. Yep, right. Yep. I don't know if I need to pull that up but um, it's patriarchal in nature. Yep. Right Patron. So we're not just talking about when a father, just he's in the church and he then he puts his hat on his head and he gives the priesthood to a son. We're talking about, it's passed down through your bloodline right through your lineage, right? You have So right then Abraham, he has Isaac and so it was with Isaac.

1:16:43 That that that that bloodline or the The Chosen the Everlasting Covenant was going to continue to Isaac's bloodline because we know that Abraham was married to Hagar and Ishmael received a difference inheritance. Other than the priesthood inheritance, right? Okay, so it had to go from Abraham to Isaac and then from Isaac to Jacob, right? Right. And then with Jacob, through Leah and Rebecca and then the, the other two has the other two wives. Then that's how we established the house of Israel but the 12 tribes of Israel.

1:17:24 Correct. Yep. And so Which if I could just speak to another rebuttal? Yeah, the Joseph Papp polygamy movement will give just so we let's just squash that rebuttal right now, okay? Is that they like to say they like to interpret the the history of that to say? Well Jacob didn't really want to marry Leah. He was, he was kind of deceived so he because he really wanted Rachel and so He didn't choose to enter into poor marriage. So they look at that as right?

1:18:07 That's not But that wasn't a correct principle. However, why would Jacob be willing to Merit to it to then work? Another seven years to obtain a second wife, if bright, it wasn't something that was ordained of God, right? And then you have who comes through. So which Patriarchs come through Rachel, which Patriarchs come through Leah, you know, because it's Jason, if Joseph, Joseph comes through Rachel, right? Or am I wrong? I'm let me look at my notes here. Sometimes I get have to remember to because it's I'm not going Leah through Leah.

1:19:01 Comes the tribe of Judah. Okay. And who comes to the tribe of Judah? Jesus Christ. Yep. Right. Right. And then you have, let's see. So then you have Elijah is said to come from The Tribe of Benjamin, which is the Senate? Who is the son of Rachel? Okay? So right here, we're here. You have Elijah who is Elijah is pretty important, right? She's huge. Liam will talk about Elijah because this is important. Understand, why Jin, the last date Elijah's hugely important comes through Leah. So right. So are you going to take away Jacobs to watch those two wires from Jacob and say, God didn't ordained this and then you take away, You take away Leah, you take away Christ, if you take away, Rachel, cause he's already married to Leah, then you take away Elijah and I think Moses can't comes from Levi.

1:20:01 Who's the son of Leah? So, yeah. Right. Yep. Okay. Oh yeah. And Joseph comes through Rachel because it Right. Yep, he's been Joseph because he's from building at. He's at the gels fight Joseph in Egypt. Yep, right. That's correct. Yep. Okay. Okay so we're right so, Right. Okay. So again, so what is passed down then through each of these Patriarchs? It's not just, they're not, just now members of the House of Israel, but they are now the Cub that Everlasting Covenant is renewed through each of those Patriarchs. And with the Everlasting Covenant, the priesthood continues, right?

1:20:50 Yep. Because it has to be passed down through. Lineage you need to understand that without lineage there is no priesthood, right? Right? So So it's passed down through lineage, through the hate, the house of Abraham. And that's why you have in the Book of Matthew chapter 1 didn't bring my scriptures. The first. What is the first thing that Jesus Christ reveals? Yeah, hurry and pull it up. Yeah, let me go get there to sorry. I didn't all I gots my silly phone. Matthew chapter 1.

1:21:36 You said yes. So I think this is so important because So, why here in the gospel of Matthew does Jesus Christ? Give us his lineage. Hits it opens up and says the book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. Why was that so important? Because he's making a claim with the priesthood, he's making a claim about the priesthood through his lineage. That this is who I am. This is who I am by Birthright and entitled to these things and know that I'm acting within that office.

1:22:19 Right, exactly. So by he's he's establishing who he is, what linen she's from. He doesn't say well, these icky, polygamist are my father's and they need to repent, right? He doesn't ever say that right? No, no, he's actually proud that. He is of the lineage of David and he's the lineage of Abraham, right? So So right there. K. So he's again, like you said, he's establishing his authority and then we see that Zacharias, he does the same thing then, or John the Baptist because Zacharias was, he's from Levi, he's the last so Zach ertz. So that's another reason.

1:23:05 Why the birth of John, the Baptist is so miraculous is because had Zacharias, not had a son that would have ended the aaronic priesthood. Yep, through Levi. Why? Yep. And so the angel comes and he's like, you're going to have the sun, right? And it's miraculous. It's a miraculous birth like. Jesus Christ is miraculous because we God needed to carry on that political priest. Yeah. And through the bloodline. Yep. Not just, you know, you think we'll, he could have, you know, that Christ could have died and he could have sent an angel. But how do you establish the blood? How do you establish it forever? So you don't have to have an angel come every time.

1:23:47 Through a blood line, right through asset through a child your posterity so it's very important we understand that God is continuing again this Everlasting Covenant through posterity, right? And it wasn't with right with any with any woman. She also had to be a pure bloodline, right? And so that's why you have that's why it's important to know that. Mary the mother of the Son of God is a Ian. That word virgin isn't just that she's never had sex virgin means Purity, right? It means that she's a pure bloodline, gotcha, right? And so it's important that.

1:24:32 So God is he we call her the Virgin Mary, right? And it's important that she had virgin before her name because God wants you to know that. Jesus Christ came through, a pure lineage and undefiled lineage a nun. Bloodline. And so we call her the Virgin Mary because it does mean that she has never been defiled but at. So the bloodline ever gotten to file because she was true. She was a virtuous woman, right? Never broke my custody. Right? But then that she was also the pureblood Israel. It's speaking to her lineage as well as her as well as staff meeting. Yep.

1:25:14 And that's important, right? God is he wants us to understand something here, that's why he gives her the title of Ian and not just so we write, not just so that we know that she didn't break the law of Chastity, you know, break the law of Chastity. So okay. We're up to that point, right? Right. Yep. We're good. Okay. So then so that's so again, I was just I wanted to go with that history to understand what the Everlasting Covenant was, and he established it with Abraham. And again, it was passed are endless posterity. And restated. Yeah. So and and God is basically saying this will never be taken from the earth. Now we know that in Jesus Christ time we do go into apostasy right?

1:26:08 There's Anna, Jupiter Church loses, the Jewish Church loses priesthood but it's not because priesthood is taken from the earth or per se. Is that the bloodline was taken from the church? Oh, I got you. Okay. And Christ seed was scattered kid, right? Have you ever heard that I have? Yep, yep. Okay, I almost need it. Okay. I just, I probably need to get my scriptures. So, can you just give me like 30 seconds? That would be perfect because I'm going to get mine. And then I'm also going to shut off my wife's phone, who I found out, she just left it in here.

1:26:52 So yeah, let me well, let's do that. That we're getting to. Then present day, right, right? We've established the Everlasting Covenant with Abraham continues through Jesus Christ and then we know that the church went into the Jewish Church went into apostasy, and I don't know if you're familiar with the history of that. Christ's blood line was hid. I am, can I point something out about what we were talking before about Bloodlines? Did I find super? Interesting. You have Christ who comes out and says his lineage back to his father's, right? I find it interesting that.

1:27:41 God, the Father seems to do something very similar when he introduces Joseph Smith. To the savior in the growth. He could have said, this is your savior hear him. This is Jesus Christ. Hear him know. He goes out of his way to say. This is my beloved Son, hear ye him. So lineage is a very important thing not just here. But throughout time and all eternity. Right? And and so, that's actually. So God is a God to us because he is right, he is the king in in the milk, has a crease that he's a king and a priest, right over his posterity in the Eternal world, and then which he tries to pass on to us in the mortar world, right? Yep.

1:28:41 Oh, because he's trying to establish his kingdom here to write. He's correct given. That's an opportunity. He to come to mortality and he's going to try and he this ever let. So that when we say Everlasting it, it goes both ways forward and backward. Yep. And it starts with with God, the Father who he himself has kept us Everlasting Covenant. Yep. He's passed on a priesthood through his son. Jesus Christ. It's come to this earth. And in and through the posterity here and so giving us the same promises that were made to the father's, right? so, in going to When Joseph Smith is translating the Bible.

1:29:33 It is revealed to him that. So go to There's a revelation that was given to the Joseph Smith on December 6th 1832, and it's recorded in section 86 of the doctrine of covenants. And it says, it was a revelation that was received while Joseph Smith was reviewing and editing the manuscript of the translation of the Bible. Okay. And it's, I think it's one of the most profound and significant Revelations that I, we fail to understand many of us have failed understanding We don't understand the significance of it and in verse in verse 9 or excuse me, let's start with verse 8. The Lord reveals to Joseph Smith. He says therefore thus, saith the Lord unto you with whom the priesthood have continued through the lineage of your father's.

1:30:31 Hmm for ER, lawful heirs, according to the Flesh and have been hid from the world with In God. no no this is the repetition give it to Joseph not just Joseph Smith but other leading Elders of the church including Brigham Young Heber C, Kimball John Taylor, Charlie Pratt And others. What did he just say? Yeah, let's just break this down here real quick because if I'm not mistaken and you're right, I probably read this a hundred times. I mean as you can see, it's marked up, right?

1:31:11 The whole the whole thing's marked up here the whole section but I've never caught that. So he's basically saying you guys are descendants of Christ, right? Yes, that's awesome. That's absolutely awesome, Kimberly. That's why it was important that we understood cry. Like you said, why did you God say this is my beloved Son, right? Right. Established seeing father-son priesthood lineage bright and here then Joseph Smith, this told and you to Joseph Smith and other leading Elders of the church. That preset is continued.

1:31:55 So we think the producer was taken from the Earth but like I said, it was removed from the Jewish church and the bloodline was scattered or it was hid, right? He was in. And then we could talk about going to whole story of the Knights Templar and how they hid Christ bloodline anyway. Yeah. Yeah. But when I will need to talk to you and I will need to talk off the air for just five minutes because I got, I got Something I want to run by it but yeah, yeah, no absolutely. It is it okay if I use this at church next Sunday I promise I'll give you the credit. Is you showed it to me but yeah this is this is awesome.

1:32:35 You don't need to give me the credit. He'll come on Kimberly I know but still you pointed it out to me. All right, so you want me to continue because it gets better? Yes, yes I do. Okay, it gets better. Okay, so so, so the Lord reveals to Joseph Smith. They are, he says, for your lawful are so that's plural. So again, not just talking about Joseph, but talking about Brigham Young Heber C, Kimball like these leaving Elders of the church they are according to the flesh. So again they are Have the bloodline of Jesus Christ. They've been hit from the world with Christ and that says, therefore first 10 your life and the priesthood have remained and must beads remained through you.

1:33:28 And your lineage until the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of the Holy prophets since the world began. So that priesthood has to remain through who the lineage of Joseph Smith. Brigham Young Heber C. Kimball John Taylor, Charlie Pratt Orson hide until the restoration of all things, right? We had a restoration of all things yet. I would say no. I think they're still more out there that we well we know we need more scriptures. We know those are out there. Who knows? What kind of covenants. Those scriptures have. So no, I would say no, we're not done yet. With the restoration porting to Bruce mcconkie, who is a great?

1:34:11 Yep, Theologian gospel scholar. He said that the rest restitution of all things doesn't happen until the end of the Millennium, right? So the priesthood that God has reached their present given to Abraham and Everlasting. Covenant, has to remain through who the lineage of Joseph Smith. Brigham Young John Taylor. Yep. Until the restoration it has to remain. So Okay. So that's important understand that we have to understand that and then in verse 11, it says therefore blessed are. Ye if you continue in my goodness which what would be his goodness.

1:34:51 Continue in him having it? Yeah, right goodness. Well goodness can be Covenant were a lot of things a light unto the Gentiles and through this priesthood a savior unto, my people. Israel, the Lord has said, amen. Wow, they are to be savior. This is how you gather Israel. Yep. Right. This is how you become a savior to the house of Israel. How are you going to gather them back in? It's a bloodline rights Tara tea. How do you have posterity? Yep, kids You have kids you have kids, you get married, you have children.

1:35:37 Yeah. Right. So In section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants. It says 132 verse 63. It says wives are given into a husband to multiply and replenish the Earth according to my commandment and for their exaltation. And they turn our worlds that they may bear. The Souls of men for here in is the work of my father continued, that he may be glorified. and so, again, this isn't about You know, people want to say that it is just about that Brigham.

1:36:23 Young was this they want to paint him as this man who was just out for having sex with a whole bunch of women. He's saying, no wives are giving him two husbands so that they can bear The Souls of men and not just any man, right? Whoo. What kind of souls is God trying to bring into this world, we're talking about the lineage of Jesus, right? The right that that very lineage, right and Bruce are McConkey. Also Tata. That let me get the quote because it's just better to quote.

1:37:07 I think he might have been quoting Joseph Smith so it's let me just see if I can find it. He says Israel is an eternal people. She came into being as a chosen in separate congregation before the foundations of the earth were laid. She was a distinct and peculiar people in pre-existence. Even as she is in this sphere, her numbers were known before their Myrtle mortal birth and the Very land surface of the Earth was divided to the nation's for their Returns according to the number of the children of Israel. In other words. Israel was established before the foundation of the earth so God needs certain men and women who are already of that lineage before the Earth to continue to Bear seeds of the chosen.

1:37:58 Lineage on this earth, right? That makes sense. It makes total sense. Yes, it's just not any matter woman in her chosen, it know the specific men and women who are chosen to carry on. the Covenant, the priesthood through lineage, or through their posterity, so that God can then send Pure Israel to Pure Israel. Mother like daughter, right? Wow. That's powerful stuff. It's very powerful and, and you know that, like so we can't have eternal life, right? Right without passing through mortality. And that without me without being proven through temporal life.

1:38:48 And so it's obvious that the Covenant of marriage, it opens the gate to birth to continue the work of God on Earth. And so a righteous man with righteous wives or opening the birth to multiple of those spirits of the House of Israel that are waiting to come to the Earth. Yep, that makes sense. No, it makes perfect sense. It makes perfect sense. And, and I think, I think when it's put in this context, the beauty of of, of the doctrine of plural, marriage comes forward, right? And and you begin to understand that, that this I'm trying to say this here. Not everybody's is Is going to live plural, marriage, either here or the Hereafter, I just don't think it's going to happen.

1:39:47 Nonetheless. It is an important principle and maybe and maybe there's a reason why it's not instituted amongst, all right? We certainly know in the early LDS church it wasn't and maybe that was part of that vetting process that happened. So just I shouldn't say vetting process. But maybe that's the reason why Joseph had to sign off on every one of them, right? So because he could look with spiritual eyes and say, you know what, I think, I think that's an Israelite right there. Right. Well, I have some quotes I want to share with you on that. Sure. Okay. Because it's actually very fascinating again, because we're when we get to the heart of this this this gets you like like you for me, it was I can't believe that this is my faith, this is my Heritage and I am so thankful. So first of all, mosiah Hancock, he said, speaking of lineage, he said, quote, I wish to right now of the Prophet Joseph Smith, The Lord revealed to this Prophet as early as the year 1831. The in consequence of great wickedness which would come upon the Earth in the latter days, it would be necessary for great men to take the noblest wives.

1:41:04 The Lord had reserved the most noble of his choice spirits to come forth through a pure lineage, as the noble. Spirits were not willing to come through a lineage that was corrupt. Close quote. Wow. So so we're talking about the men and women of the restoration. Are going. We're going to bring forth the noblest of spirits, right? And if you think about, well are so are some, are, are we some of those Noble Spirits by, if you are a descendant of plural marriage, right now, this is your heritage who God is saying who you are, right?

1:41:46 You are these Noble House of Israel, that has that you have been preserved to come through a I'm Right? When the pure lineage is of of Israel, we're going to be restored in the last days. Yeah. And so can you imagine how hard they in is working to get you to not know your heritage, to not know your lineage and did then cut yourself off from those men and women, right? He's gonna transform the truth into a lie and make you think that polygamy is icky and it is gross and the Brigham Young didn't know what. He didn't know what he was doing and he wasn't aligned with Joseph Smith.

1:42:31 All the things I've heard. Can you are so what what why would Satan want to tax our marriage? Because again it's about attacking the priesthood, right? Because if he can stop these lineages from coming forth, he stops the priesthood. And the priesthood is what book of Revelation said, how is Satan cast out? Was through priesthood, he stood, you up, how is he going to be cast out in the Millennium through priesthood, so he has to stop the priesthood lineage from continuing on the Earth. He's going to attack your marriage. Hey so we need to go into this but then I do want to Bear another. I there's a couple things I want to share with you but going into priesthood lineage and some of these men and women and who they are.

1:43:19 I want to talk about that. But since we're on, The topic of why Satan is working hard to get us to fight against our marriage. I just want to read you some scriptures. Okay, okay, okay. Again, all of this came to me, as I said, as I started to studying word, links to Everlasting Covenant. So I looked up all the scriptures on Everlasting Covenant, because that's what marriage is, right? Yep. The Everlasting Covenant, cuz it's the promise of priesthood and and posterity. Yeah, right. The only way you have posterity is through Larry's. Yep. Right guys, so I'm just going to read scriptures and just going to briefly read some scriptures in like the Doctrine and Covenants on the Everlasting Covenant and then you can see what happens when we when we turn against that.

1:44:15 Okay? So So in Isaiah 24th Bible to start there first, then we'll go into the doctor Covenant. He says, the Earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof because they have transgressed the laws changed the ordinances, and broken Everlasting Covenant. So what was what was Israel's downfall. They broke cabinet, they broke that Covenant. Yeah, they broke Yeah, man. That's nuts. And to think it was essentially why they're scattered, right?

1:44:57 They had the God has to scatter because they they've broken the Covenant, you know, God always keeps a Remnant, but right? They broke the Covenant. Okay. So and then in Doctrine Cuts, let's go through doctor and Covenants, okay? Because there's so many places that it talks about the Everlasting Covenant, that's not not in section 132. So in just in section one, That's the Lord's prophets to the doctor and Covenants and he's staying the entire purpose. For the restoration, right, right. And the entire purpose, for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and for the church to be established is in verse 22. He says that mine Everlasting Covenant might be established Right?

1:45:52 So to bring back the Everlast, so he needs to re-establish it in this dispensation, right? So that's the higher reason that he's bringing forth The Book of Mormon, this, Tyrese, and he's bringing forth the restoration, he's restoring priesthood. He's restoring, all of these Revelations is so that the Everlasting Covenant might be established and then he says in section 22. Verse 1 behold, I say unto you that all the old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing. Being and this is the new and Everlasting Covenant, even that which was from the beginning. So here, the Lord is telling us that this quote unquote, new and Everlasting. Covenant, is actually what was from the beginning. So again, not new to this dispensation. Meaning, it's not a new law, it's new to this dispensation, but it was has from the beginning, okay? And then again, in 45 verse 9.

1:46:52 He says and even so I have set my Everlasting Covenant into the world to be a light to the world and to be the standard for my people and for the Gentiles to seek it, and to be a messenger before my face to prepare the way before me. Though, this Covenant is to be the standard. Remember? It's it's the priesthood right? To be the standard again. Priestess coming through lineage Again and then in verse section, 49 verse 9, where he the Lord says, wherefore. I say unto you. That I said unto, you, my Everlasting Covenant, even that, which was from the beginning. So again, it's fine that this Covenant is from the beginning. Yeah, in the Lord's, going out of his way to show that. I mean, he several times he's saying, look this this is new to you but understand this isn't new and time Right. Okay.

1:47:53 And then he says in 60 section. 66 verse 2 verily, I say unto you blessed, are you blessed? Are you for receiving mine? Everlasting, Covenant, even the fullness of my gospel set forth under the children of men that they might have life and be made partakers of the glories, which are to be revealed in the last days as it was written by the prophets and apostles in the days of Old. Who? So when we think about glories, what are we thinking about? We're thinking about this is associated with, with Exile patient. Right?

1:48:33 Do you have The Three Degrees Of Glory? Yeah right. Yep. And so he's saying this is how you are going to be partakers of that Glory. Well right, we have to we don't even if you're not living it, you're receiving it because your lineage is continuing through those who enter into the Everlasting Covenant, you become errors. Through. Right through that lineage right? Yep. Come the sons of the fathers of the Covenant right sons and daughter. Then Universe 76. Okay, this is where the Lord breaks down and said these for the degrees of glory. And then he's speaking of the telestial Kingdom, right? The to be Louis Kingdom.

1:49:19 He said, but To the slush into the telestial kingdom and 76 first 101. He says, but received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither, the Everlasting Covenant, Wow. So Dave, then what is the implication of fighting against for marriage? You won't be able to get to the Celestial Kingdom you that you essentially inherit the tea. Last, you'll be Louis, calm down. Yeah, your fight. It says you receive not the prophets, right? Who are the prophets, the enter into this Covenant to Abraham? Isaac, Jacob, yep.

1:50:06 And then, in our dispensation Joseph Smith forgive me. Young. Yep, you're sick. It almost carried on the Covenant that received it from Joseph Smith and then lived it despite being persecuted against, right, right. You right at. So it's this is there, the serious implications here? You're not. So essentially, you cut yourself off from root and Branch, right? Yeah. You cut yourself off from being an inheritor of the abrahamic, covenant, not only for yourself, but then for your posterity, right? So that's pretty serious. That's very serious offenses. You don't I'm a guy and I can speak with to this with a little bit of Experience, I guess is the word I'm looking for. On my side of the family.

1:51:05 For reasons, I won't get into here. My dad had to change his last name and it's been hard to do genealogy on my dad's side. And there is something to be said to know where you came from. To know who your people are. And when you don't have that that can leave you kind of unanchored, right? And I think what's beautiful here is that that the Lord is showing that how important it is that that we are anchored to our ancestors as as Abraham's seed as Abraham's children.

1:51:46 Right. Yeah. It's very, very important and And what anchors is to that. Then, right. It's the sealing power of Elijah, right? And so, when what's interesting to me to is in this doctrine of Christ movement, right? They they so they reject everything. Any Covenant, that's not what they say is baptism of fire and holy ghost or anything that they say isn't found in the Book of Mormon. Would they think isn't found in the Book of Mormon? And what's interesting to me though, is that when the Lord reveals the Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith in September of 1823 Moroni heat receives a visit from Moroni, if you remember.

1:52:35 Yep. So he receives it and what is wrong? I tell him specifically. He said you're going to receive, you know, you're going to receive the plate for the Book of Mormon and then he said that The that after he's translated The Book of Mormon, he says that Elijah will reveal his priesthood to you, right? So yep. The two things, the mission of Joseph Smith was to bring forth The Book of Mormon and then to receive a fullness of the priesthood through Elijah, right, right. So, who is the aphasia?

1:53:19 Why is he, why is he important to this Everlasting Covenant? Well, because he's the one that that really, you gotta go back to the hearts of the fathers hearts of the children being turned back to the hearts of the fathers, right? And, and it's this idea of reconciliation to where it is. We've come from and this reconciliation of parent to child and all the way back to Adam, Right. Exactly. And so, so Elijah was required to return the new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage, why? Well, Joseph Smith taught. He said Elijah was the last prophet that held the keys of the priesthood and who will before the last dispensation restore the authority and deliver the keys of the priesthood in order that all ordinances may be attended to and righteousness, it is true that the state of your Had Authority and power to bestow this blessing, but the sons of Levi in his day were too prejudiced.

1:54:21 So why send Elijah? Because he holds the keys and authority to administer in all of the ordinances of the priesthood. And without the authority is given in ordinances could not be administered in righteousness. so, in other words, Elijah was the last prophet to hold the ceiling power associated with the fullness of the Melchizedek priesthood. And therefore, it's his role to return to the Earth to fulfill the words of Malachi, right? How do you turn the hearts of the children to the father's? It's through the sealing power. Yep, the sealing power of the priesthood and option. So without the sealing power, marriages and families are not sealed for eternity.

1:55:07 Okay, right. Yep. Without the sealing power. So if you're rejecting, if you reject section 132, you reject like Eternal Marriage even for a monogamous monogamous couple essentially, yeah, from a monogamist a coming and Right. Right. So Joseph Smith essentially link the power of Elijah through the fullness of the Melchizedek priesthood. So we know that Elijah lived in Israel at the time when they did not have access to the milk hesitant priesthood and Right. Thanks because Israel rebelled, right again, right?

1:55:49 Yep, their bloodlines were scattered and so Elijah alone then held the priest because he has to continue the priesthood, right? Right there, Joseph Smith taught that. So what's the power of Melchizedek? It was not the priesthood of Aaron which administered in outward ordinances and offering sacrifices. Those holding the fullness of the Melchizedek priesthood are Kings and priest of the most high God. Adding the keys in the power and blessings. So, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Joseph Smith receives the the keys and priesthood of Elijah. He gives us to Brigham Young.

1:56:29 They are now they hope the fullness of the priesthood and they are Kings and Priests unto God, right? Right establishing the fullness of this priest day. So and then revealing the covenants of the father's to the children right which covenants of the fathers are our charcoal fathers who have Everlasting, Covenant of priesthood and endless posterity. Absolutely cannot obtain except for through them which is that what exaltation is? Yep. Yep. Wow, and you even do a guy like me who has not shied away.

1:57:15 Necessarily academically for a number of years on plural marriage. This puts it into a whole new light, right? That the whole how it's connected with priesthood at such a fundamental level is It puts thing in things into proper perspective. Wow. Then all of a sudden what we thought was never your old school Doctrine is now. A pretty big matter of importance, spiritually. It's very important and and then I can just read one more scripture and then I do have something from church history to share that. I think is actually very, very significant so it's okay. Infection 131.

1:58:03 Then again, because we said that this was tied to priesthood, and this is how the priesthood is going to continue until through the end of the Millennium, right? What we talked about. So in dr. Cummings 131 verses, 1 through 4, the Lord says, in the celestial Glory There are three Heavens or degrees and in order to obtain the highest a man must enter into this order of the priesthood, meaning, the new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage. And if he does not, he cannot obtain. It, he may enter into the other but that is the end of his kingdom. He cannot have an increase. So, according to this section, he the Lord is tying. Marriage to an order of the priesthood, right? Yep.

1:58:49 And then he says, you can. Why is it the end of your kingdom? If you do not enter into this Covenant, the end of your kingdom. Because in order to what is having posterity, it's about multiplying, the priesthood right. Having a God's kingdom is a kingdom of priests Kings and Priests, right? So if you're going to have a kingdom of priests, they have to have the fullness of the priesthood, then they have to have stay'd to pass that priesthood onto. So if you're not willing to enter into this priesthood order, which is the new and Everlasting Covenant of marriage, then then you have an end, right? Because their God doesn't, he doesn't want you to have see, just for the sake of having seed, you, he wants you to have seed with in that Covenant to carry on the Covenant, which is the priesthood.

1:59:40 Yeah. And and I think it's best and, you know, I'm sorry. Go ahead, there's a little bit of a delay, I apologize. Um, I think I'm that I think I think this is really starting to get into that realm to of what was called the mysteries of godliness, right? Because these have such Eternal consequences to them, right? Sometimes I think certainly is Mormons of every stripe. I think we have this idea of well we get sealed so we can have kids forever. Because gosh, we just love our kids and certainly that's a part of it.

2:00:26 But I think what we're seeing here is God. Kindly God laying out the plan of how how that, How the Gods continue, I guess, I don't know. I'm trying not to sound too sacrilegious and just throw around terms. But Right. So, so when you really dig into Like like I said that there what are the reasons that we have priesthood being restored? A novel was first of all that Joseph Smith didn't receive you know the priest of Elijah until 1836. Right?

2:01:07 And then and so technically he's he's trying to prepare the people he hadn't even revealed to anybody until ma boo that he had the priest of Elijah. He always he talked about receiving these Keys like almost futuristic because you know, they didn't really know. No, outside of Oliver cowdery. They didn't really know he'd receive this priest attorneys keys, but he's between 1836. And, in 1841, he's slowly trying to prepare their minds and and trying to teach them, you know, the Lord doesn't just, you know, vomit truth on people. He teaches them line upon line precept upon precept and so you have it. So it's really important understand that it you know, why did he wait until Nauvoo it?

2:01:53 And that is because first of all, he didn't receive Until 1836. But then he also has to prepare the people for these things and just trying to pull up this this quote here because it's actually fascinating and like we said before, he's its Joseph Smith alone held the keys and Abu where he could turn the key of Revelation and know who was Who are essentially of the right? Lineage or the right. Birthright were chosen by God to establish it to re-establish or to restore this Everlasting Covenant. And so I just found it interesting that there's not many of they there aren't many of the ceiling of the Joseph Smith, like, the actual words have been revealed, I don't know, but I started going and trying to study some of the words of the actual, the actual City ceiling of Joseph Smith to, some of his wives and I think the ceiling between Sara and Whitney and Joseph Smith is actually very significant and if so if you don't mind if, if I could read that, absolutely, please do. Look, this is this shows all about you at this point, Kimberly.

2:03:19 I'm just here for the ride. Your awesome. So, whatever you want to do is great with me. Okay. Okay, so Sarah and Whitney. She is honor of Bishop milk, a Whitney and Elizabeth and Whitney. And so I'm going to read the words of the ceiling, Covenant between Sarah and Whitney and the Prophet Joseph Smith. And then I want to then read you the patriarchal blessing of new, Okay? Whitney and his wife, and it's fascinating. So In the ceiling, Covenant, between Sarah and Whitney and Joseph Smith. The Lord said, if you both agree to Covenant and and to do this meaning, enter into the Everlasting Covenant of marriage, Eternal Marriage, that I give you Sara and Whitney, my daughter to Joseph Smith, to be his wife to observe all the rights between you, both belong to that condition. I do it in my own name and in the name of my wife, your mother.

2:04:20 So in other words, the Lord revealed this Stu. You okay. Whitney who then perform the ceremony. Right? This is what the Lord revealed to him, okay, so this is who's speaking. so he says, I do it in my own name, in the name of my wife, your mother, and in the name of my holy progenitors by the right of birth, which is of priesthood vested in Me by Revelation and commandment and promise of the Living God obtained by the holy milk, has by the holy Melchizedek and other of the Holy fathers commanding in the name of the Lord, all those powers to consecrate in you and your posterity forever. Wow.

2:05:08 So in other words, he is saying that the union between Sarah and Whitney, the Prophet Joseph Smith is all of the powers of the priesthood of Melchizedek is going to be consecrated concentrated in you in them, and Sarah, and your pasta and Joseph Smith, and your posterity forever. So again, right establishing the Everlasting Covenant through Joseph Smith and Sara and Whitney who will then go on. Through the endless ages of Eternity bringing forth the seed of Melchizedek. Wow.

2:05:51 And I say that because listen to this. In the Pixar. Remember, she's the daughter of milk a Whitney right? In a patriarchal blessing. And okay, it says, in as much so this is the this is To milk. A Whitney whose daughter is Sara Nguyen. E, Wright says in as much as thou knowest. I progenitors. And artist shirt concerning the lineage through which thou Hast descended. Now he's identifying lineage, I blessed the with a father's blessing for thee and my children after thee, for their inheritance, has to the end and as thou art, a descendant of Melchizedek, one of my posterity Shall be likened to hand before the Lord. Wow.

2:06:40 What did you say? He says that no. Can't Whitney is a literal Descent of book helideck and then he says, one shall be like unto him. One of his posterity is got here. So mu K. Whitney's going to raise up. Eight are who will be like under Mo cosmetic? Milk has it? If it was greater than Abraham. Yeah, he established out. Who else can raise up someone as great as Melchizedek, if not Sara and Whitney and Joseph Smith right now. Let me ask you this because now I'm just curious, not that it matters because we have all eternity. Did they ever have kids together? and I, I don't believe so.

2:07:30 Okay, so this isn't again. When people want to say, Well, it has to be fulfilled right now, right? We're talking. What did that Revelation say? It said that that the priest will continues to your lineage true until the restoration of all things. Joseph Smith is going to be it alive in the Millennium, right? Yeah. So well right. So what happens at the resurrection? You you resurrect Your Righteous husband will resurrect? Who has fought his family all the way back to me Father.

2:08:13 Yep. Right. So his wives So this I believe this is a future for their still, get a future fulfillment of This Promise. Yeah. Well I think again, we're talking Eternal Marriage isn't just we sometimes we put our blinders on and we think this has to be fulfilled within this short, 80 years of my existence on this Earth. And if it's not, then the Lord was lying when we're like no we're talking about eternity, right? This is Eternal Marriage. So, in Write a future. Fulfillment of this prophecy will come to pass, whether it happens. Now, we're in the Millennium, it doesn't matter at some point, it's going to come to pass.

2:08:56 write what God says, you know, he fulfills all of his promises, so it's When I look at Mormon history, I am continually fascinated by that early period in the church, where seems like we were just way more bold about being like, yeah, you're the sending them Melchizedek right? Or or whatnot. And it's always fascinating to me to see how these, how these men in church history. Then you can start to see them strive to take on those characteristics. These are, these are things that Feel in their core and it affects their, it affects how they go forward from this point on. Right.

2:09:44 Well, that's why. I think it's important that we've kind of lost our identity, right? We as members of the church, we you see so many like we're losing youth. We're losing were losing like members of the churches from of all ages and I think it's because we've lost our identity. We don't really know who we are. Like, for example, like, what does it mean to be a member of the House of Israel? Well, what are you get? Our patriarchal blessing? It's revealed to us our lineage. And it's fascinating to me that the times that I've cut gospel Doctrine. I'll ask, what does it mean to be the house of Israel? And are you Israel and I get blank stares or people don't understand what that means.

2:10:28 And so if you don't understand what it means and that the lineage that you're a part of how, what are you living up to? Right, that makes sense. No, absolutely amazing. Dad, what you understand, who you are, and what you're a part of like your your attitude changes your, right? Your ho, Your whole purpose changes and you want to live up to a higher standard and it actually makes you become a better person, right? And so if we, if we take the way, if we take away this understanding and we're fighting against these doctrines, we don't just lose.

2:11:14 A the restoration, we don't just lose the church, we lose who we are as a people and I think that we then right then who are we cut ourselves off and then we start living for ourselves and and right, and you lose Faith. You lose. Hope we don't. Yeah, we don't have anything that anchors us to who we really are. Let me ask you this real quick. Why do you think it is that we've gotten to this stage? And I'm not talking, just the LDS church. I think I think this is a problem across Mormonism. Why is it you feel like this has been lost on a lot of us. How has it been lost on us?

2:12:07 That's a good question. I it just comes down to I think we don't we don't study our history, right? We we don't study the doctrines, right? We're happy to do to read verses that make us feel comfortable. And and then we we listen to podcasts and let no knocking podcast, but where are people going to get their God? People knowledge, they instead of sitting down and reading the scriptures for what they are, they go and listen to what other people have interpreted for them, right?

2:12:48 And then it's quite call it good, you know, this gospel scholar told me that you know that in and you can get you can glean really good Insight from people who have studied the scriptures. But if we fail to obtain this knowledge for ourselves, you're going to lose it. It's like the parable of the ten virgins, right? You Give somebody your light. They actually have to go in scriptures and they have to obtain it for themselves and they have to want it, right? So there is the story of Lucy Walker where when she was first introduced the practice of her marriage by Joseph Smith because she's one of Joseph Smith's wives, she went and prayed and she she tells the story of how she didn't have a sincere desire to know.

2:13:40 No, she she agreed to pray but she didn't really want to know and she didn't really want the answer. And so she said that she sat in darkness and was depressed and until she decided, okay, I'm going to pray with a sincere heart and with a desire to know and what she decided, I'm just going to I'm going to pray sincerely. Then she received her answer and then she talks about how she was flooded with all of this light. And Ending. Right. So God doesn't ever give you give any man, a revelation or an answer to a revelation without reasons for understanding it. So if we go, if we're going to the Lord in prayer saying, okay, is this true?

2:14:28 God I am, but your attitude is I don't really want to know what I want you to tell me that it's wrong. You're not going to get an answer. And in fact you might get an answer from the wrong Source, it will confirm to you. You know, what you want to hear versus right? The truth because God isn't going to reveal it to something to you. That you don't really want to know. Like, right. So we really have to learn how to receive an answer and we have to realize the truth. You actually have to seek truth with a sincere heart, with a desire to know, like it says in the Book of Mormon, it isn't just about going in praying. Is this true?

2:15:10 It's you. Have to have the sincere desire. And I honestly don't think people have a sincere desire to actually know But these things are true. I think they don't want to believe they're true and so they get the answer, they desire II think you're right. I think you hit on something else. That was important to hear Kimberly which is you talked about you know people just go to verses that make them feel good and I'm not knocking that certainly we should be able to go to the scriptures and and get get Comfort there, right? We should expect that. However, This idea that if it's true. We shouldn't have to struggle with it. It's kind of a bad idea.

2:16:05 I just think about what you did. You said, you kind of struggled with this, right? And so you went and you dug in, you found it. I think we tend to shy away from those things that challenge us a little bit. I think we all enjoy hearing about Jacob wrestling with an angel, but I think too many of us are content to never do that ourselves to never go and wrestle with these things that we perceive as hard. And I say perceive because I think once true understanding comes, I don't think it's as hard as what it is, what we think it is. It's just foreign at this time. And so I think in some ways I think we've been a victim of our own affluence in a lot of ways, both, physically and spiritually, we've gotten too comfortable and I think we shy away from the struggle and, unfortunately, it's out of that struggle.

2:17:00 That shouldn't say, unfortunately, but it's out of that struggle that that we gained some of our deepest understandings and are our most treasured, Bits of knowledge when it comes to the gospel. Yeah, exactly. And to, I think part of, you know, that promise of Elijah of the turning, the hearts of the children to the father's, what really, what was an important part of my journey is then actually going to the actual, the words of the men and women themselves, because what we have going on here is we have we have so many people that are hijacking, the stories of the women and then Their own interpretation, right?

2:17:50 Feel like I'm just going to give an example. I'll call you out for what it is. Michelle Stone. Did an entire podcast? On trying to label the women, the plural wives of, you know, Joseph Smith, another player rides in Utah, as trauma, bonded victims. So here she, what she's done is, she's hijacked their stories. And she's saying, well, yeah, we have their testimonies, but you can't really trust their testimonies because they were trauma bonded, because they are victims of this rhetoric. That was coming from their husbands, that right. Right? Right. Well, we have Brigham Young preaching, hell and brimstone and so they were too afraid and so they just went along and so she's painted this story, right?

2:18:39 She's again, she's hijacking, their stories and, and I didn't listen to other people were saying what I did is I actually went and I read the journals. I read, what the women said, the women didn't hide. That it was a struggle. I write the sacrifice brings forth. The blessings of Heaven. They were saying, This was a trial but I did it for my posterity, I did it. Because the Lord revealed to me, that this was true and he showed me the reasons why I was doing it. And so I was willing to make that sacrifice. And so when times got hard, which they did And and then I remember the promises of the Lord and I got through and I'm when you read their stories, you actually, it strengthens your faith and you're like, well, if they can do hard things, I can do hard things, right? Like these women were amazing women and I want to give hope to the sisters to other women like me because it wasn't just the men that were receiving.

2:19:41 These promises. Like I just want to go into sister Whitney, who was the wife of no K. Whitney He the Lord tells him, he's the direct descendent of Melchizedek. Well, you have sister Whitney who in her patriarchal, blessing, kind of bring it around here. She he said the Lord says to Sister Whitney. He says, I lay my hands upon my head in the name of the Lord. Jesus and confirm the blessings of Heaven upon the in common, with my husband, even all blessings, which may be for thy Comfort, both of us spiritual and temporal nature for thou, art bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh and the Lord, So ordained that those of thy, same family, and descent might be one to fulfill his purposes.

2:20:24 For thou art the same lineage of my husband. Thy life has been hit also and thou mayest Rejoice for thy posterity, shall all be blessed. So what what is, what did the Lord just reveal to Sarah? She is the exact same lineage as her husband. She's from Melchizedek, her life has been hid. She's going to receive the same blessings. Her posterity is going to be blessed because she's willing to enter into this Covenant and she's willing to have seed in this Covenant and all of those blessings and not lineage is going to be passed on through her posterity. Yeah, so it's not just the man, it's the women. They are just as great as the men, they are of the same lineage, right?

2:21:12 They have even greater blessings that are promised to them and and these women knew it. So there is acting. Full agency and full knowledge. And it was like, if I can tell that a quick story, I think you're good. Just, I just love the women like, again, women we need heroines, right? We need what the world has offered doesn't offer us any heroines. We need righteous women to look to to know how to be a woman of Covenant know how to be a holy woman. And and so It wouldn't when we paint these women as these traumas on the victims were then we don't want to.

2:21:57 We we don't want to go to the women, we don't want to write, we don't think we can learn anything from him but we can actually learn so much from them. So Helen Mark Kimball is another example and she is she's the 14 year old that was still the Joseph Smith, right? Right. Um he met with her story so not with her story. No, I do know. She's a prominent player. We're sorry, right? She's a prominent player because she's the daughter of Heber C Kimball but again, right? Right? We Secularism and progressives have hijacked her story and they just paint her as the fourteen-year-old, you know, bride of Joseph Smith. And then they they try to put the label pet Angela Smith and then when you get to know how Mr. Kimble. Well, it's she's actually an amazing woman and she's still to Joseph Smith at 14.

2:22:52 The, the marriage was never consummated. She then goes on to marry horse Whitney as a husband. Is it four times? Time when she's married to horse, Whitney, she actually stands as proxy for another woman who had died and, and, and the sealed. And then she acts as props proxy as horse is still to this woman for eternity. And in Winter quarters, she has a baby and which winter quarters is rough. Pretty rough, right? Yeah. And she has a baby and instead of giving away. Oh, and then she has a baby in it. It dies right after birth and instead of giving in to despair, she writes a letter to horse Whitney and she said that it was better for the baby to die, so that their hearts could be fixed on eternity and on God instead of on themselves, right?

2:23:45 You're like Who has that kind of perspective, right? We because we're all about self, right? We're all about instant gratification and self. But here are these women that they their vision is on the eternity? Right. Absolutely no. I love reading these women because they, they inspire me, they strengthened my faith. They are, they're not just strong women, they are. I mean, these are women that enjoy all of the gifts of the Spirit, the kind of gifts that we only dream of like, right, the gift of healing speaking in tongues and the Lord really blessed women, nothing bugs me worse.

2:24:34 Then when we paint these women as victims, it it infuriates me because we're not giving them their due in a world, that is, That is. Uber Progressive, right? That seeks for total equality day denied. These women that right? In in our modern standards, we don't in society, they like to paint them as beaten down and as subjugated as second-class Citizens within the Gospel Kingdom, and nothing could be farther for the, for from the truth. Were there.

2:25:26 Bad polygamous marriages? Yeah. There was. And you know what? There was bad monogamous marriages. And so this idea that That somehow because they were in a plural. Marriage makes them weak is just absolutely infuriating especially when we don't take their word for it, from their own journals or we cherry pick just the things out of their journals to support that argument. One of my favorite women from the early Utah. Period is Martha Hughes Cannon. Right. She is the first woman, the first female in the United States elected as a state, senator. And who did she be?

2:26:11 She beat her own husband in the election. So, not necessarily a woman who's beaten down and kept subjugated by her husband. It's a plural wife, who runs against her husband and becomes the first female state senator in the United States, period. And we never hear those stories. We never hear that from the secular from the other side. And we never hear the stories of, or the sermons of Brigham Young as actually encouraging the women to go out and become doctors and midwives. And we never hear them to.

2:26:57 He's telling them to become a countenance of accountants and he tells them you can be better in business than the mid and and it was under the direction of Brigham Young that that the allele eyes are still on the other women, they built the first hospital, and it was an all board woman are all woman Hospital. Board. And and then you have like, right? Find me a place in 19th century America where that's happening. Other than the Utah territory at the time. It doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. In quote, Victorian society, it doesn't exist.

2:27:38 So yeah, yeah. And then you have so you then you have the women that are leading, you know, the woman's rights movement, you know? And and there and of course, they're not the woman's rights where we think of what the feminists are fighting for their, they were leading the women's rights movement to, you know, the right to vote because they were so aligned with the priests that they were going to vote righteously, right? And so the leading that movement there, These are, you know, the women that there were there being painted as trauma, bonded, victims or were like you said that they are downtrodden and you know, oppressed by their husbands when they're out. Accomplishing Half of the stuff they've accomplished. I've never accomplished in my lifetime, you know, and I never will and and you're like, wow, they did, they did all that. And and then we're supposed to look down upon them instead. Like, I Look to them as, like they forged the path that I should be on.

2:28:37 And you can learn so much from from their stories from their testimonies, and their teaching principles that you won't hear it taut anywhere else. You know, like, holy principles, like Eyes are snow. She that was kind of her motto. It's the duty of every woman to become a holy woman. Yep. And she said once you you know once you gain wisdom then you have power and so Yeah, they're I think like I said, they are the nursing mothers, the women of the restoration are under our, our nursing mothers and example, that we need to look to and our hearts need to be turned towards them. And so I see this narrative.

2:29:23 It's it's crafted by the adversary to cut us off from who we are and who we are supposed to become and it's it's it's diabolical as it's very it's very diabolical. I didn't mean to take you away from your story because I'm super interested in in that you said there was one other account you want to read Oh, I so there's just one more account I want to read just because like I said, I speaking to the women, right? It's So Eliza R snow, she's another player. Wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith and we all, you know, she's Heber prophetess, right?

2:30:12 And, and do you know who actually gave her that title as the Hebrew prophetess? No. So there is this reporter from the East. And she had heard, you know, rumors of Mormon, women, and, and polygamy. And so she wanted to go out and investigate and I can't remember her last name off the top of hurt my head, but her first name, I believe is Emily and I get. So she's like a journalist reporter and she was going to go, expose the Mormon women, right? And she gets to Utah and she is taken to the Lions hat. The lion. Hal to Brigham Young's house and she spends the afternoon with Eliza R snow. Instead of writing, an expose on women, Mormon women, she writes an entire article on Eliza the Heber prophetess and she says, when she was introduced to Eliza, she knew she was standing in the presence of of a prophetess and Another thing that people don't know about Eliza is that Joseph Smith actually revealed to her?

2:31:20 That she was from the house of Judah. Whoo. So that title Hebrew prophetess is especially was especially interesting because she's from the Royal house of Judah. And so the, so I want you to think of how then marriage isn't just about A bloodline, but it's about reuniting. Families and Nations. So in Jeremiah, there's a prophecy. Okay. And it says the Lord will bring the Lord, will bring Judah and Israel together again in the last days that they will return to the marriage with the kindness Holiness and love that the bridegroom deserves Yet returned again to me. Saith the Lord, Brian married unto you and I will take you one of a city and to of a family and I will bring you to Zion. Wow, that's Jeremiah three.

2:32:18 Well, Jeremiah 22 to 23 and then I read Jeremiah 3:14. So, what is the prophecy first of all? God is being a metaphor using marriage, right? The bridegroom is This Christ, married to, to bride, Israel and Judah. So right there is a metaphor for our marriage. But then what is he saying that with that marriage, he's going to bring together Judah and Israel in the last days and then, then they will return to him. And To one of the city until the family and he'll bring them to Zion. So what does the union of Joseph Smith and analyze our snow?

2:33:02 Who was the royal house of Judah? Right. And yeah, Joseph Smith is essentially. Well, he's eat from in Judah, but he's that he's representing the house of Israel that plural. Marriage is a literal fulfillment of Prophecy. Holy cow, he's bringing together again. The nation of Judah. Through a bloodline, right, again, bloodline, right. Then Judah and Israel and he's making them one again. One family that will establish, Zion It's beautiful our history. Our Doctrine is beautiful. It's inspired its It's something.

2:33:45 We should be able to stand on, right? It's something that should be able to, to boy us up and like you were saying though, we, we just don't know it and that's a sad sad thing. And it should make us proud. And yeah, not proud in the, in the in a negative sense. But just Proud of who we are, and then we should want to defend our heritage. Absolutely more people should be out there defending who they are and defending the prophets of the restoration. Instead of letting these core horse in these movements to try to take it away from us and to tear it down. Yeah, yeah.

2:34:35 And I felt this for a while. right now, a lot of the problems, the LDS church face Are the same problems that Mormons of every stripe face and that's why I value your work so much because we we've got to stop the hemorrhaging of our youth and this is one way we could do it. If we don't give our youth something, To fight for something to stand on. The world will do it for us and it won't be anything that leads them to righteousness or goodness or anything worthy of God.

2:35:22 So right exactly right. Yeah and I think that we underestimate the youth. Oh we want. We think we need to entertain them and give them like food fun and fantasy when they need. They want true Doctrine. They want you know, true facts. True history. Let's give them. Let's give them truth because right truth is what strengthens faith. It strengthens testimony if we give them That and we're not making apologies like stop apologizing for your history right? Stop apologizing. The Joseph Smith was a polygamist. Yeah, stop apologizing for it and and and and teach what is true and and it will I think we underestimate the youth that we just give them truth Yeah, they'll do that to you.

2:36:18 Giving them aren't the true Faith. Because, again, what does it say? They were preserved to come through, these pure lineage has because they are the noble spirits that God has kept in reserve. Yep. So you give them truth and I'll live up to who they are and, and the Heritage that they're part of and I believe that that is the answer. I think you're 100%, right? I think you're right on the money. Let's stop worrying. Worrying about entertaining them. I think that's a great thing. You said there. I know, certainly it seems like too often we spend our time, trying to figure out how to engage the youth and by doing. So we just dumb it down for right? Our kids are capable of amazing amazing things. We just have to first be willing to show them where to go find truth and then also expect something out of them. Right?

2:37:12 I think I think if we do that, they'll walk up to everything we expect out of them and when When I know with my kids, when I've helped them set goals, they by and large achieved it. And when they haven't, it's usually on me because I didn't do a real good job and he'll wanting it. And so yeah, we sell our kids short way too much. I agree with you, 100%. So let me I know we've been at this almost three hours, but I got one more question for you and then I'm going to leave you alone. I promise. What's going on with Justin Griffin, second movie, when did that come out? You said January 19th, is that correct?

2:37:55 So, okay, so it was released, January 19th. So that pretty much this second movie, it sounds like it's a setup for part three, which at the end of the part to he sets up with the Joseph Papp polygamy and Brigham Young started polygamy. So it was pretty much just a precursor to the. I think part 3 will be the big one. We're so in part to he can't really He admits that his theory isn't provable, essentially his theory about you know he can't prove it happened, the way he said it did that John Taylor Miller Richards killed Joseph Smith, but his theory is that it / at least proves that the church's narrative is all false. And then he hits a big setup for part 3, which would be well, this is why John Taylor movie Richards killed Joseph Smith is because Right then.

2:39:00 Brigham Young was trying to take over the church for power and polygamy in. It's a big set up for part three. So part two is actually, I think, Not in Justin's favor, it didn't make him look very good. And but it is I think it's like I said, just a precursor to the part 3 which is again it going to probably be an explosive attack against Brigham Young any word on when that a marriage, any word on one that's supposed to come out.

2:39:41 I didn't he didn't say, so I'm assuming within this year. My first thought on that is to get together a bunch of my fundamentalist friends who are really well schooled in all this. And just go rent out a movie theater and we can laugh. But yeah, look what one other question? I am so sorry. I keep saying one more question. I'm going to let you go. We've talked about how to save our youth. Have you had any success in bringing people? Back to the truth once they've left for this abomination.

2:40:26 Once they've actually left for the doctrine of Christ. Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Yep. Yep. That's what I'm saying. Have we had any success in bringing them back after they've left for it. I haven't actually yet seen anybody come out of it. But yeah, because I think it takes it's gone. It God has to be the one that does it, right? Yep. We stand up for truth and we we defend our faith. We defend our religion, we try to, you know, right? We give people place where they can look for the truth and find it.

2:41:07 But ultimately, I think it's God who has to do it, okay? It what once your entrenched in its, and you start fighting, you're fighting against truth, you lose light, right knowledge, according to dr. Kevin just rewrite. So It, like I said, we we try to provide the light, we try to Bear testimony of true, so they can find it. But ultimately it has to be God. That does it gotcha? And we have to be patient because I don't give up on anybody and I don't give up on Hope and I try to tell, you know, people who have had family members or friends that have who have And in Trent gotten entrenched into that movement and are fighting against, you know, the church or fighting against their faith in fighting fighting their family.

2:42:03 I just try to tell Those families not to give up hope on their loved one or their friend. Because I do believe that God, he cares more about them and we do so, and, and I think our covenant father's care, more about them than we do because they are their posterity. Yeah, right, absolutely absolutely. If you and I believe in miracles. So I think just keep defending the faith and God can move the mountains. Perfect. Perfect. Anything that that maybe my audience could help out with there anything that we can do to help support you and your efforts or, you know, the Joseph Smith Foundation or anything like that. I think the most important thing is for people to learn the history so they can defend it right? And it's just about knowing the history and knowing the scriptures and then just be willing to engage in the debate or the discussion.

2:43:10 Because if you have So that's what's successful about the doctrine of Christ movement is because you have the leaders, but then you have all of the people that the follow them that they can go out and and right are now defending kind of evangelized for that, right? And so what we have to do is we have to actually be willing to engage in the in the in the argument that day and that doesn't mean contention that just means you're willing to engage in the conversation. You're willing to stand up for You know is true you're willing to actually teach the principal because they're we're not going to win we may not win the person we're talking to but the person watching the debate you can influence absolutely hence and I just think it's just about getting involved and knowing your history so that you can defend it.

2:44:05 Awesome. All right. Is there anything else you wanted to touch on before we leave? I think I said enough. Well, Perfect. All right, well, as always, you're welcome back on here, anytime you just got to reach out. I've already, I always got a spot for you. I'll make time whatever it takes. So awesome. All right, stick around for just five minutes here Kimberly. So by everybody, you're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. you're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.