Episode #41: A Mormon Fundamentalist On TikTok W/Benjamin Winfield

0:04 So, few months back, I was scrolling through my Facebook feed and I saw a post from someone that caught my eye, I clicked on the link. And what I found was a guy who was a Mormon fundamentalist, who was using short Tick-Tock videos to explain Mormon fundamentalism as well as to push back against misunderstandings and erroneous teachings. About the restored gospel that man's name is Benjamin Winfield. On this episode Benjamin and I have a fascinating conversation. We talked about how he became a fundamentalist, how he found himself, being the voice of Mormon fundamentalism on Tick, Tock, some of his interactions with different people on social media and where he sees his presence on Tick-Tock, going in the future along the way, we cover a few gospel principles, and even dive into what we can do is fundamentalist to reach out to folks, not of our faith stick around for that and more on this edition of the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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3:25 You can also get a hold of me on Instagram and Twitter and getter under the handle. Mormon Renegade. Also we have a website up and that's Mormon Renegade.com, so go check that out. Well, Benjamin how you doing, man? I'm doing great. So do you like to go by Ben or Benjamin? Either one is fine, you know. Okay, I'm good. You can call me Ben, I won't be offended. All right, fantastic. So I wanted to have you on because I feel like in some ways you're a guy that's kind of near and dear to my heart. You you put out Tick Tock videos on Mormon fundamentalism, which I think it's just great. I've said for a long time, if we don't get to frame our story, somebody else is more than happy to do it for us and they're not going to be as Truthful. Or Nuance to say you and I are going to be Yeah, well that's kind of that's kind of why I wanted to do it. I'd seen you know, of course, maronna Jessup is on Tick Tock and he was he was on there before I was. And I like that because he has a lot of experience, but it's that like framing that other people do that, kept me away from fundamentalism for such a long time that I really felt that That that I was like well like if the good people aren't letting their light shine, then

4:58 you're only going to hear about Warren Jeffs. Exactly. Not like and that's what is in people's Consciousness and so you got to get out there and you got to talk and you got to see the fundamentalist aren't scary, evil people who are crazy weird things. Absolutely. What brought you into fundamentalism? Were you born a fundamentalist did Like convert from the LDS church, what's your backstory a little bit there so it's kind of a long and circuitous path that I took but I was raised in the church and you know I'll find looking at like my very first exposure to fundamentalism is kind of going back. I was a teenager and somehow I came across like Ogden krauts 95.

5:50 Jesus. I found out like online and I just kind of like think I was like 15 16 somewhere around there and I had just like recently really gotten a testimony of the Gospel just by going to Seminary and reading the book and I was just kind of like on fire and I was like well I want to be really prepare for my mission. So I want to know everything. I want to be able to answer like all the hard questions and all this stuff and we came across our great crowd and at first it Like, well, this guy is an apostate and obviously everything that she says is, you know, but like there were so many things like stuck with me to the point where, like, I'd be having conversations with people and I'd be like, well, you know, Brigham Young said, you know, such and such. And then I think I'm like, wait, I got that from watching crowns or I, I got that, you know, That was kind of my first exposure but I really just like Shrugged it off and I'm not was that for four years to come and I served a mission for the church and I served in Chicago, I really loved it. Had a lot of really wonderful experiences. Very spiritual experiences that really helped shape me. These are for just a second Benjamin if you don't mind. What's it like?

7:22 So by the time you go on your mission, are you still doing Austin crowd as an apostate? Yeah. Pretty much. I kind of like it was this like Yeah, the short answer is yes, but but like, I kind of had this like kind of affection Brewing, you know, where I was like, well he's had some good things you know, like hey here he brought up some good points there but like you know, William has for bad right? You know, and I grew up in Springville Utah. Okay. And I was I don't remember how old I was a kid.

8:03 When like Tom Green. Got arrested. Okay, he was from there. He was living in Springville at the time and so it was a big thing and you heard all the older people talking and gossiping about it and had the I had a bishop at the time. Whose last name is green. Obviously no relation but it was, you know, just so it's just something. Everyone was like, buzzing about. And and so I kind of grew up like Viewing polygamist is these like bad people. Scary people, you want to stay? I like that attitude.

8:44 Kind of carried with me for a lot of took me a long time to like really see through that and see the the misdirection and deception that was but that I carry with me for a long time? Like yeah. Well, these guys are like creeps, you know, they're very interested in underage girls, they're doing, you know. And now I just kind of had that like hanging around the house. Like these people So, so you're you going your mission, right? And so, it sounds like, your kind of viewing. Ogden crowd is like the less scary version of fundamentalist, right? Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I think that's a good way of putting it where I was like, well, he seemed like a pretty good guy, you know, but still wrong, you know, was kind of where I was at when I went on a mission and I had and I hadn't really like dive too deep. And talked about.

9:42 So I didn't have like a really good understanding, I kind of like skim through 95 like and I was sort of the extent of exposure So yeah. So that's where I was and I, you know, and then I'd run into the like Adam God Doctrine on my mission a couple times. And and it was the standard thing where you're like, oh don't listen to that Brigham Young was, he was misquoted. That's not what he really means. I don't know what the context is, but I'm sure if you looked into it, it would be totally not what it sounds like, yep.

10:24 Dude, we've all heard those. Those right? And it's like, you know, know yeah, I've heard everything from it, was just a idea that Brigham was talking about or it was a theory, not a Doctrine or he was misquoted or, you know, the guy who was transcribing made a mistake and I'm like, when you look at the context, you're like, oh no. The first time he speaks about it publicly. It's General Conference. And he's speaking from the pulpit and he's going hard. I mean, he's going like to Hours worth of this is who God is. So yeah, what we do look at the context, it's pretty pretty cut and dry.

11:05 Yeah, it really is and of course you know I didn't do that till later so it was you know, you follow the line of. He didn't say that. Okay. Well that's not what he did say that but that's not what he meant by. That was like well maybe that's what he meant, but it was just this idea that he had, it wasn't the doctrine of the church, okay? It was The doctrine of the church, but it was wrong still, and maybe way to set, you know, and by then you're like, wait a second. I'm on Shaky Ground. Yeah. All the sudden you're doing G, mental gymnastics. It would make Olympians proud, right? I mean, you're back flipping off some bar that you're reaching for you. I know I get it and what's funny is you can almost set your watch to that whole process, right? You can, you can wait till someone, you hear something about the atom God, and then like start your watch. And it's just going to they're going to go through those steps every time.

11:59 So what was your mission? Like really one of the best experiences of my life. I was I'm not I will always be grateful to the church for having that experience. It was, you know, you get to talk to all kinds of different people. You're having all these crazy experiences. You get these You get, you know, older people with real life problems that are just like pouring their souls out to you and trusting you and your this young kid who doesn't know anything and just a wonderful experience, I think it was as a missionary that I really developed a testimony of the atonement of Jesus Christ.

12:50 And that's something you know. Nice, very cool. So after you finish up your mission, you head home. Is there, is there anything that happens on that mission that maybe starts tearing your towards fundamentalism or, or does the mission just kind of reinforce your LDS perspective on the world? It really was a pretty standard at that time. I was a pretty standard LDS guy. I I think I had some like, Leanings towards fundamentalism. But I just, I think I just assumed everyone else in the church did to, you know. So there were things like I just assumed that everyone knew and believed that Christ practice book marriage. I thought that was like a non-controversial thing because, you know, I was kind of a bookworm and I had read that that was taught in the early days. And I just kind of like was like, okay? Okay, that's how it is and then you talk to people, and it's like, controversial, that Jesus was married. And then well, well not only was he married, but Mary two or three times, right?

14:06 He was a repeat offender, right? So and so there were things like that where I think I kind of was a little bit of a fundamentalist I just didn't realize I was but it really like I came home from my mission, you know. Got married in the temple, kind of had this like very conventional experience of this point for for LDS people who are raised in the church and work in the plan. Yeah yeah really I think the the whole I got home from my mission and 2008 and it was like in the airport on my way home, the CNN was blasting like the raid on the yearning for Zion. Ranch.

15:00 I'm so like I just have that as like this distinct memory, but I was like, oh, and so I'm not like was maybe another thing that reinforced like, man, those polygamist are just really awful people, you know. And, you know, maybe there's like some some people that are innocent because they're ignorant but all the leaders are bad. You know, and I'll sort of like I wasn't really looking for a further, right? I had because of the little bit of Agra crowd that I had read. I have this like, vague understanding that there were others that like weren't like that. But that's really all.

15:40 I was. It wasn't until I was, I was at BYU-Idaho and I can't remember how I came across it at first, but I read something that kind of tipped me off to the idea that there might be a little bit more to this whole atom God thing than being misquoted and I came across Drew Brian. He's booked. Okay understanding Adam God's teachings. Wait that was it was that the at the be we be yui Library, it was hahaha but somewhere somewhere.

16:21 There was a fundamentalist who was like donating books and and you know it was probably Young kidneys. Like watch this you know it it was a Mormon version of hold my beer while I go stash a version of Adam. God in the be yui Library. No. Actually it was in this special collections section of the library so you couldn't just pull it off the shelf. And in fact, like the thing that it reminded me of it was really eerie. I I heard this interview from this like Soviet Defector Who had who talk because he was an economist in the Soviet Union and I'm His Name Escapes me.

17:02 But he talked about how he was given special permission to read books about like free-market economics and he had to go to this library at the check-in, put his name on a list and then there were men with guns that would like watch him like while he read the books, you know, and And it like it wasn't that bad but it felt so Eerie because you had to like sign in they brought the book out to you on a table, you were allowed to take notes, but like there was a person watching you, like, while you read it. I was like, this is weird.

17:43 You know, I've always said and my apologies to anyone who ever went to be yui, but we use, I used to look at BYU-Idaho and be like, that's like, Mormon Taliban country, right? I mean, I mean they made BYU Provo look downright like Alabama or something. That low parole. Right? Well, we all thought that they were less faithful. Yeah. Yeah, no. It was Progressive Mormons. They show their ankles down there. Yeah, that's right. Very cool. So they're women, wear capris, it's right here. So, that's hilarious. So you end up You end up getting getting ahold of Drew brownies book.

18:29 And as you're going through it, what's your thoughts? Well, after that initial experience of this is really creepy. Having people watch me, I ended up emailing him, and he was very kind enough to send me a digital copy. And so, I started reading that and then I ended up moving down to Utah later and I'm reading through this and it blew my mind because I went through, like, all of the Like well this is obviously wrong, you know, like I went through the temple and there's God and he's talking to Adam, they're not the same person.

19:11 What are you talking? You know, like like and then you dive a little deeper into it and you're like, oh, turns out Brigham talked about that, you know, like there's an explanation for that and so many people in the church like they see that one thing or like well that conflicts with what the Is now and so it must be false. So I'm just going to completely ignore it. But then, I think if you have a little bit of humility and you think it's possible that Brigham Young was talking about stuff that he had no understanding of. And if I don't understand what he's saying, it may be that I'm the one who is ignorant. I'm not him.

19:59 You know, can I ask you a question after you came to a better understanding of Adam God, when you went through the temple? Did you start seeing like bread crumbs of, Adam, God, all over the endowment. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I remember because I had I have an older sister, who left the church and she kind of became fairly hostile to the church over and she would, you know, say well there they hid their history lying about stuff and and I always brush that off. I was like well, no, because sometimes, that's sometimes that is unfair depending on what topic you're talking about. But then I remember I, when I was, I was going through that book and he has Thus the him sons of Michael. Yep.

20:49 Which it's sort of obscure its that doesn't get some graphic, but it's still in the LDS handbook and they headed it that pin. Yep, to make it to take the atom God doctor. Yep. And when I read that, I just I felt like a ton of bricks the just like fell on me and I was like, oh, like they tried to memory hole this Doctrine. And make it. So it didn't exist anymore. You know it I think I have to admit I think until the internet came around they did a pretty good job, right? I mean it was always out there on The Fringe but it wasn't anything that that caused anybody to question, really right?

21:31 I mean, yeah, I was kind of a, I think because I was a convert to the LDS church, I was kind of an aberration because My mom had our local clergyman, give me like selections from the Journal of discourses during my conversion process, and thinking it would like, shoo me away entirely, and I just found it more and more fascinating, but I was kind of, I won't say brought up that way, but I had somebody who was willing to sit down and explain it to me a little bit, right? And an older guy who had been around for a lot of years. He probably heard his old man talking about Adam God Doctrine, right, right, and so yeah, for me, it was, it wasn't so new.

22:18 I mean, it's one thing to know about it. Academically, it's another thing to pray about it and figure it out for folks on the inside of the LDS church who are maybe coming in with this idea of who the godhead is, and then have it upset, I think, I think that can cause dramatic issues. Yeah, it really can and you know, it was exciting and kind of scary to. And and at this point in time, as I'm like, gaining a testimony of this. I, my wife is pregnant with our first child and we had moved to Utah and I looked up through again and I didn't know he was a fundamentalist because I I like, oh well, he's an attorney and he went to BYU. So you know he's he must like, he must know how I can have a testimony of this and not become a fundamentalist and stay in the church, you know?

23:24 Right. Right I'm gonna go talk to him and he's going to set me straight and everything's going to be fine and he was really gracious. He said well I'm Kind of finishing up early on this Friday. Why don't you come by my office? And we can chat for a little bit and that turned into like this like five our intensive conversation. Like both of our, you know, our wives are like texting us our phones or buzzing and we're just ignoring it. I got ya. You know, I'm like, well, Drew, what about this? What about this? And and, you know, I don't And he would tell me like, well, you know, Hugh Nibley. I'm pretty sure he believes this Doctrine. And, you know, he stayed in the church and, you know, there's a lot of people that you kind of have to keep it under wraps, but you can.

24:19 Yeah, you know, you can stay in the church and I was like, okay, great. And then I was like, What are you believe, though? Huh, I really feel. I like I pressed him and he's like, well, I have two wives. Yeah, buckle up and you know and I was kind of glad rejected and but by then, you know, we had been talking for much longer than we had intended to And so we kind of ended things over and he invited us over for dinner and we kind of got to know each other. And you know, kind of where we were at. I was having like all of these spiritual experiences where I was like the atom God, Doctrine.

25:17 Help me understand like why plural marriage was necessary. Because I was kind of okay with like not doing plural marriage, which I think a lot of people also think that like thats the drive for fundamentalist was like, oh yeah, we want to go get a bunch of wives and I've yet to meet a Monta Ellis who converted like so that they could get women. That's not really, you know, that's not a thing. The atom God, Doctrine was way more important to me than familism then plural marriage ever was. But if you understand the implications of it, you see where it falls into this wear that Sorry, what's your wife thinking? This whole time?

26:00 She's getting kind of scared, and I'm really happy about it at first, she was kind of, okay, she's like, well, you know, if we had friends who were gay, we would be kind to them, and we do stuff with them, and that wouldn't be, wouldn't, you know, look down on them. So I guess I can just treat polygamists the same way, you know, that was kind of how she was grappling with it. But then when she saw me like, Like becoming friends with Drew and speaking well of him if she kind of panic a lot and you know one point she just kind of came to me and said, if you want to go do what he's doing, you're going alone. And this was kind of a process that was over a few years, like understanding this.

26:53 So we had our second son was born by this time and she was just like, yeah, I know. I'm taking the boys and that's it. I'm not, I'm not any of this? And that just really like okay because I'm having all these spiritual experiences that are Directing me in the opposite direction of what she wanted. And I remember like one Sunday, walking to church and the spirit just came over me and said, they are going to excommunicate. and I was like, No, they won't.

27:41 I'm not gonna lie. I was just like, you know, have a rebellious nature. I haven't overcome entirely and the spirits telling me that. And so I've told people before, the my journey into fundamentalism was kind of a, kind of a Jonah type of experience where I felt the spiritual confirmation and that's what I'm talking. Most of you. I was like nope I'm not doing it and you can't make me. I love the church and I know that every fundamentalist that I've actually met in real life has been a really good person but The other ones, still must be creepy and bad. And I just had a run of good luck and they've all been good, but the rest are.

28:33 All right. It's still must be the case. That, you know, everyone, I have met everyone, I keep meeting is really good, but the other ones must still be bad. And and so I, you know, at that point I was I was scared. I was like nope knocking It was my marriage. I'm not gonna lose my church membership. I'm done. And I kind of stopped talking to Drew my stops like reading fundamentalist stuff. I like, nope, I'm just going to be a regular average. Dude in the church. It's all I've ever wanted was to have a family bunch of kids and young men's president, do my thing. Not be any one of any importance, just kind of have my standard LDS life, that's all I want. I've been there.

29:25 I know what it's like to go through all that and then try to put it away and then go back. Good luck. Good luck. Yeah, I was like you can do it for a while. You can do it for a while, I drive you absolutely crazy and schizophrenic but you can do it for a while. Yeah. Well and that's, you know, ultimately what happened, like I kind of came to fundamentalism on the road that I took to get away from. And so, you know, we moved out to the The Midwest to be closer to her family. And, you know, I really think that there's a principal and the Book of Mormon kind of teaches this where you accept new light and knowledge, your expanded and your light and knowledge in your capacity. Engines.

30:18 But as you reject light and knowledge, the light and knowledge that you do have is taken away from you. Rhyme. And I really felt that. So I kind of went through a period of a lot of spiritual Darkness because I was just trying to, like, I want egg because I've heard, you know, people on the podcast and I don't know if it was you or someone else where they talk about it and you're like, well, I can't go to the temple. That's Adam got everywhere, you know? Yeah, and you know like because once you can see it, you can't unsee it. It. Yep. And and it's frustrating because you're surrounded by people who don't and then like, well, maybe I'm just crazy. They must be right?

31:02 It can't be that. They're all wrong and you know, you know, like it I get on you just kind of talk yourself out of it. And so that's kind of how things went for a while and then I started experiencing a lot of struggles, and my life. My my mother passed away kind of on Expectedly and that just like really rocked my mental and emotional health, I just like wasn't aired for that. And that and I just kind of like spiraled where you know, after a loved one dies, everyone's there they come for you and then they all go home. And I know the regular lives and they're like Good luck. Be back to normal.

31:52 Yeah, you should be normal. Now why are you normal? And I'm like, I don't know how to be and and that, you know, that's just kind of how I went so you know as time went on like my marriage is really fell apart and I don't I don't blame my my ex-wife for that at all. I was I gave her Say that again you kind of cut out all sorry I just had like as as I went into this depression from my mother passing marriage, just fell apart. And I don't blame my my ex-wife for that as much as she was like, You stay away from the polygamist or her, I'll leave you.

32:49 You know, I was just for a long time, just a really unpleasant person and so you know that's just kind of fell apart that way. And so I had this like really acrimonious divorce and you know her father was the stake president out there. So yeah. And I'm the the ironic part was he was a he was a good guy about the whole thing. Like he was like, no, I'm staying neutral. I'm not getting involved. It was just kind of like everyone else in the church in the area was like well that's the state president's daughter.

33:31 He must be like a terrible horrible person. Right? And so you know I had like life falls apart. Marriage lost like Community lost and I was just in this, like, really terrible place and, you know, and I'm like, okay, I want to get my spiritual life back into Mordor. You know, I want to be able to get myself back in a good place where I feel like I should be for my boys and four for the future and all that. And I started studying again and again, you know, I come across There was a recording fun. I don't know how I found this the algorithm or whatever, but the spirit I should say, I came across a recording of talk that ruling already gave and and he shares his testimony of Christ and having having been a witness of the Savior and I felt the spirit like come Me really, really powerfully again. I said, oh, he's telling the truth, isn't he? you know, like, And I'm like, oh shoot, I see it now. Like I see.

34:55 No, I see where I lost the spirit, I see where I went wrong. And so I I look up Drew again and I start chatting with him and he had had his own Journey where he had been on the reality TV show and he ended up and was he was in Missouri at the time where there's a bunch of fundamentals. There and I went out to see him and, you know, I was visiting, I went to church with him and and I really felt the spirit like gonna come over me and say we need to be re-baptized and I was still fighting it.

35:41 Then I was like no I don't want to do that. Like there has to die and even after all of that I was still like there still has to be a way that I can get back to that just normal. The S life. And you know, when I was there in Missouri, Drew introduced me to Sean Anderson that you are shows. Well Greg, I very knowledgeable the like him, and he started talking to me, and it was like, in the morning, I'd like told drew that as like, I think I need to be re-baptized and he's like, well, we can do that, that's great. And then and he told that to Sean and Sean came and asked me, and then I like, I just like panicked and Sean was like, wanting to talk to me and like share these experiences with me and then I just like wanted to like change the subject because again, I was like still scared of this whole fundamentalist world. And so you know, I really love Drew and Sean. They're both very patient with very gently shepherding me and because I I drilled Drew with all these questions. You know, I'd come across an interview with one of rulon allred's signs, I don't know whether it was on like, Mormon stories or one of those other podcasts and, and, you know, and he kind of came out with a lot

37:11 of those same like, oh, there's all these creeps and pedophiles, and all this stuff, and they're running rampant. And I was like, Drew, I need to know like, what is this? Like, an I can't be around. People like that, you know, and he's like, well, it's the same as like, you know, as everyone. And then that kind of like, dawned on me, I was like, oh yeah, like you can get online and look up, sex offenders. And yet you have a pedophile in your neighborhood, in your ward in your ward. Yeah. Like they're there, you can look up where they live and see a picture of them in the description of Like what they were convicted for like they're everywhere.

37:56 It's like, you know, it's a crying. And so yeah, like that's happened with fundamentals, it happens to like fortunately, there's not really a community where crimes, like that haven't happened and so that I like that, you know, which should have been obvious, you know? But I was just like something that image that I'd had invested in me for so long. Have like these are bad guys. Then the light clay down, I was like, oh no, like that's just that's a crime that happens, you know, and it's a human crime, it's not necessarily one that's unique to fundamentalism, right? It's not and it and it is it's unfortunate that we find that at all, my guess, but it isn't something that is at a higher rate or is especially unique amongst fundamentalist but I had an interview with Christina Rossetti, and she's a Mormon historian. She's not Mormon herself, but she specializes in Mormon. I've heard a few interviews with her. She was great.

39:04 Yeah, I had an interview with her and I asked her point-blank. I was like, in your opinion as a scholar. As someone who looks out into the inside have been, you know, really granted some really unique opportunities to be on the inside of fundamentalism. Mm, from from a scholarly perspective is fundamental is Mormon fundamentalism and inherently dangerous, religion. And she says, no, she said a lot of the same problems fundamentalist faced a lot of organized, religion faces. And yeah, I really do think it's, you know, those sorts of things are human problems. You're going to find a shyster or any any number of Personality, flaws, within fundamentalism.

39:50 Just like you will in Mormonism or Or the LDS church or Catholicism or Baptist Church. Those those are human issues that span the game, art. Yeah. Or like public education, right? Yeah, they have a problem with offenders. Yeah. And you know, that's something that's where I kind of I mentioned before, where, like the characterizations that are in the media about us. Is the like that's driving that and all you really need is for good people to like, let your light shine. And so people can see that like by no means is that standard and like the entire reason that everyone knows about that is because it's unusual.

40:36 Like you don't talk about, you don't spend a lot of time like drawing attention to the normal and average, you know, it's not like, you don't know. Top story at 10 like, happy family is enjoying their time with each other and being kind and supportive, you know, like that doesn't make the news, but something horrible and crazy. That does, you know, and that really gives us this distorted view of things where because we hear it. So frequently, we think it must be happening way more than it really is. Yeah, absolutely. So was there ever like the moment you knew you were fundamentalist?

41:18 Like there's no going back. This is what I am. Yeah. So after that experience that I had and that was 2019, covid happens. And I know that's like a touchy subject for a lot of people but I kind of saw like, right from the outset of this is bogus. And everything about it is stupid, but my job got shut down. Over it. And so I was just like setting in my apartment like this is this is awful and but again it led to like a lot more of spiritual introspection and prayer and study.

42:04 And there was this moment where it was just kind of like I was in the shower you know just like one of these things that just like hit me and I was like I, I did the same thing again, you know, like I have like I'm like it's a pattern this point, I had a testimony of of these doctrines way back and I ran away from it and want to be a fundamentalist. And then I was I was visiting with Drew and Sean and I felt like I should be re-baptized and I backed out because I was still scared me and I was like, I'm the Lord is clearly directing me in a path and I need to start falling and as soon as like, I I said that to myself, it was like this, like heavy burden just like fell off of my chest, you know?

43:04 And I just felt like might it was, it was like heavenly father was like, oh, he finally figured it out like great. And so, the height of the pandemic is. Everything was shutting down. I drove a few States. a way to go back to Missouri and I was re-baptized on Easter weekend 2020 and You know, it was this thing where I received the the spirit is this witness that I was exactly what the Lord wanted me to do. And I saw that this stability came into my life and just happened to my being as a person and everything that I had struggled with like my life was starting to just fall into this again and It's just this like constant witnessed they're like, hey, you know, I know it's scary, what the Lord wants and he will bless you and you're going to have trials and difficulties and struggles still, but you can have internal peace.

44:25 And, you know, I would rather have everything on that outside of me going wrong and be at peace with the Lord, then to have everything on the outside be perfect. And internally be apart. As I know I'm not doing well, I should And once that clicked into place then I was like all right, well this is what I want to do and I received a blessing after I was baptized where I was told to ask the Lord to send me a wife. And there are few other things that were said. It's like and I had also been kind of a little this is common for men after they get divorced.

45:12 I was a little little Bitter and a little like skittish about getting married to one woman again, right? The prospect of plural, marriage was something that wasn't even on the horizon, but I did it. And I, you know, I just I said this like very tentative not really faithful prayer where I said, Lord You really want me to get married. Supply the woman and I will do it but I don't know about this but I will try and it was just this very like simple prayer and very shortly after that I met my wife and we had this like Courtship that lasted all through the quarantine and she's a Canadian. So we had trouble like getting her over the border and some crazy stuff, but we did and, you know, we were able to get married.

46:23 Yeah, that was something else. I also asked so I asked Drew to officiate in that and so I have he's very near and dear to my heart if there is a single person. Person that I can. If there's a single mortal person, I can credit to that conversion and so, you know, that's just kind of how I ended. And, and now I've seen my life go from this, like just period of just Hopeless despair to my wife just you know, not very long ago. Had a baby girl and you know my joy just keeps growing and building and I think that's really what the gospel is about.

47:10 It's our true wealth is our family, you know? That's that's where our treasure is and the Lord Blesses us and helps us grow by us taking on those roles in our family and not being afraid to who enter into marriage. And it gone children and starting to see that shift from this isn't a burden, these are blessings. I'd have this bad experience before with the marriage going wrong and allowing the Lord, to soften my heart where I could try again. And see that he's busted so well and that's where, you know, I when I talk to people who were in the church and they have read this stuff, I don't pressure them at all right, you do what the Lord wants you to do.

48:05 And if the Lord wants you to stay in the church, you stay in the church. That's fine. You know, but if the Lord wants you to be a fundamentalist, you got to do that. Because the Lord has a plan for your life. And if you try to fight that, that's One thing stove start to go wrong. Right. Yeah, I will say this. I think there's a there may be a point of no return at some point at which you just learned too much, right? You you partake of the proverbial fruit and your eyes are open and you're like, yeah, there's not really any going back. Having said that I agree with you, there are people that I feel like I have a calling within the church and they need to fulfill that calling and maybe that calling is to be one of the some A few who were left, who still know about, you know, the original teachings are or whatever the case is and I don't have animosity against the LDS church. I enjoyed my time there.

49:05 Yeah. But yeah, at some point once you figure some of these things out it if you don't get a chance to talk about them with other people you feel unfulfilled at some level. Yeah, yeah. And that's a That's a danger with learning is the Lord doesn't give knowledge without responsibility and so, yeah, and you learn a principal it now falls on you to take action based on that principle and if you don't, you're accountable. Right? Absolutely. So, so you're out is a fundamentalist for now about three years. It sounds like right?

49:47 Yeah, a moment. So at what point Did you because I've, like I said, you're the whole reason I downloaded Tick-Tock, right? I was like, I'm not going to download that crap. I'm going to stay away from it and it is it Chinese Communists and the Chinese Communists and you know, the whole thing but I caught one of yours on Facebook and I was like fine. So I downloaded it and and start watching and they're great, there's like 30 some of them I think that are up there right now. Yeah. And They're great. What made you decide to do that? What was the Catalyst to be? Like, let me take my phone and just spout, my Mormon fundamentalist beliefs and just put it out there in The Ether.

50:35 yeah, you know for me there were there were a few things that we're going on partly you know, I don't really get to be around other fundamentalist very frequently because you know I share custody with my ex of our two boys I'm you know we had a it was a rough divorce but we have like a really peaceful respectful co-parenting relationship now and so I'm really involved with their That's really great. And I'm like, well, I've got to do my father thing here. So I can't really gather with other believers in this time. And I'd, you know, I fell, that's kind of where I need to be for now. And so I felt like, well I want to be contributing like I want to, you know, just move the work forward and put more knowledge out there and I was kind of struggling. Well, how do I do this?

51:30 And I thought about a podcast I thought about doing. Doing exactly what you did, which is go buy a bunch of equipment and start talking then and figure it out and I don't know. Like, it could just be that I'm lazy and didn't I get it? I doubt it. And well it I ultimately I think this is, this is a better thing for me to do, but I came across Tick-Tock and I was just watching videos and there's a ton of Ex-mormons who have left the church and they're saying all kinds of terrible things and they kind of dominate Tick-Tock. So if anyone listens to this and thinks like, oh, I should get on Tick.

52:15 Tock one, I welcome you because it's me and Moroni Jessup and we're the only fundamentalist really that are making content. In. But you are going to be coming into kind of enemy territory a little bit. And so I'm seeing like all these Expos that are making all this content. And then there's a few people in the church that are trying to respond. And then I see maronna on there, you know, punk rock polygamists and he's, he's putting out some good things and I just thought like, okay, you know what? As I'm hearing people talk about some of these things that the church has changed and I'm like I could I could explain that like I know enough that I could say something about that you know?

53:08 And and it's a fun challenge you got one minute or three minutes max and you put a thought out and that's really all you can do is just a snippet But you know I thought like well I could do that, that's some type of way I could contribute that's a way I can help and so I started doing it, you know, it's a it's great, I think fundamentalist we were in this great place where we can kind of understand people who are in the church and who like have a testimony of the Gospel but maybe don't really understand how things have changed.

53:53 Changed throughout the history of the church and then we've got like the the the ex-mormons. And a lot of times, the only difference between an ex-mormon and a fundamentalist is how how we decided to take in new information. You know, like it. If if you have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and you come across the Journal of discourses and you start saying this isn't what I thought this was If you say well, I'm holding to my testimony. The Book of Mormon is true. Brigham Young's our profit. I need to understand what's going on here or you say.

54:36 Bookworm can't be true. They changed things. That's different. And then you become an expert on. Those are kind of your paths when you get a certain. I think I think context has a lot to do with that to write so often. And it's real crafty trick, they'll take something that Joseph or Brigham or John Taylor said and they'll just take enough, right? They won't edit it. They won't alter it, but they'll just take the one snippet and then forget the Rest of the sermon. And so you may have this very incendiary, you know, excerpt but you don't get the full context and not getting that full context. If you're a normal 20th century Mormon, it's going to seem really foreign and wrong in a lot of ways until you receive that context.

55:25 I think context has a lot to do with where someone goes and sometimes that knee jerk reaction isn't always the right one. Yeah, and and that's something else like I hope to. I hope I have done, I hope to be able to do more of is I kind of want to say that people in the church who are getting hit with some of these things. Like oh like they change the temple ordinances, they change the doctrine, they change this in this in this and a lot of them are going to lose their faith and say oh well I guess this isn't true anymore. No. Because the Christian whole to its guns.

56:07 They if it was true they would have kept going. And that's kind of the thought. And I want to be able to say hey no, like, that's not the only option you can hold on to your faith still. You might have a harder road to go but you don't have to abandon hope and you know, go along and become a an atheist, you know, one of the things I wasn't prepared for when I fired this podcast up. So I figured it would reach You know, the 30, some people, you know, whatever was the amount of LDS people that folks, I end up getting as listeners who, you know, will email me about, you know, where did you find this or whatever?

56:48 And I remember, I've received a couple of these. Now, a few of these, where I'll get an email that says, you know, hey, thanks for explaining such and such or having this guest on to explain such and such a thing because it kind of puts them. Some some of my fears to rest or whatever and I can continue on now going to the LDS church, and I think that's great. I think that's great. I I didn't foresee that as an outcome but that's great. If that's what saves. Somebody's testimony on the restoration. Perfect. I'm good with that. I saw it a lot when I had been Schaefer on. We kind of dove into the movie.

57:31 Why am I drawing to be banned under the banner of Heaven? That was a big one because there's a lot of, I mean, they did a good job. I thought in terms of, you know, showing the gamut of fundamentalist expression, but they weren't real good about really diving in, right? And they really couldn't because they're on a time crunch. They got so many episodes, but when people get just little Snippets like that, It it's disconcerting, right? And so to have folks out there explaining, hey, this is what this is, this is the context, this is what it looked like and this was how it was kind of practiced. I think that goes a long ways in alleviating some of those concerns. Yeah, yeah, I think it really does. I mean, there's stuff like, you know, like blood atonement. Is he a big one?

58:22 You know. Actually I don't think I've done a video on. I should do a Tick-Tock on that because that's something that Spooks people a lot and my view of blood atonement. It's simply the idea that the, I believe that the blood atonement just means that the death penalty has spiritual benefits to those who deserve it. Yeah. And when you break it down into its practice, I mean, with the exception of a few cases to that, I can think of where I'd be willing to say that's rock-solid evidence. With the exception of two cases, where you can definitely make the connection where someone was kind of Acting under the wrong spirit so to speak.

59:11 Yeah, I enlarged, blood atonement was nothing more than capital punishment, within a theocracy period Point Blank, that's what it was. It wasn't. It wasn't as Extreme as what they do in Saudi Arabia where they're like, hey, we're going to cut your hand off for stealing or anything like that. It was simply reserved for the worst of the worst crimes things. That would be prosecuted in some States today. With the death penalty, that's what it was. It was the death penalty under a theocracy, it didn't apply to things. Like, apostasy it didn't apply to things even like adultery. I mean, it was really reserved for murder now. Well, and there's that famous talk that people like to quote where Brigham Young talks about like, oh, I wouldn't hesitate to run a javelin through an adulterous wife and and People like, oh, he's talking about murder. Well, he's quoting the Old Testament, right Vincent. And he goes on in that talk to say, that standard doesn't apply in our day, because how do I know that those adulterers? Truly understood their covenants and truly understood what they were doing?

1:00:30 I don't think that they really did. So, this doesn't really apply, but I do think that there's Understanding that the more Society progresses to become like the city of Enoch, where you have Perfect People, The more serious transmission. Yep. Like we can't have two cultures and old the city of Enoch that can't happen, but that city has to be a group where, I mean, to a man into a woman, everyone. Truly understands God's law and they're truly living it and we don't have that here.

1:01:16 We might have a handful of people who are on that spiritual level. I'm not and we might have a few people over truly there. But we you need a city of people who are at right? And that's when it's like if that person transgression Transgresses having a full knowledge. Well, that's a much bigger deal. We, and, yeah, I think we go, we start diving into to, you know, when does it stop becoming faith and start becoming knowledge. Sort of a thing before before you get there. So, yeah, no, I agree with you, 100%. So you remember the first Tick Tock you put out, was there, hesitancy? What were you thinking a little bit? Because I think, when I first got on there I was like, mostly like trolling people and comments sections. I'm not afraid to admit that I'm not above that, but there was this like anti Creator who he went off about how like one of the ways, you know that the church is a called is because they have all this money and instead of paying for janitors, they ask for people to help volunteer with cleaning. And I was like of all the like that was just like vo hanging fruit and I was like of all the like signs of a cult like asking for volunteers to clean, you

1:02:48 know, like my kids little league requires you to volunteer for cleanup, you know? Like that's like this is not what makes a cult. Yeah. So I just got on there and I made fun of them and there was like a little Hesitancy. But I was like, well, you know, this, let's just dry dive in and do it, and that like a lot of the regular members of the church really like that because that guy is Pretty obnoxious, but then, as I kind of like that I've been and people are asking me questions and I know I'm a fundamentalist and, you know, my I'm the 1889, Mormon on their 1889, Mormon of them. So it just became this really interesting thing where now I'm you're getting lots of questions and I can go back and forth between Dean ex-mormons who are like hostile at church. I can kind of be like, well actually you've got a good point, you know, like the church did change that and here's what was originally thought, you know. And you write you.

1:04:01 So, you know, you get people who like and dislike you on both sides. And yeah, well with that So today 8 in and maybe this is information, you don't have, what do you think you're most viewed? Tick-Tock was It's true. I can check. I think it was a bunch of feminist got mad at me, because I made a the because someone was saying like in Mormonism, the only purpose of a woman is to make babies, I got on there and I was like, oh like that's all purpose, right?

1:04:45 Like that's all response. Not like, It's not like, if your wife doesn't have a baby, you're just like, you know, you're no good to me. Get out of here. Like, that's right. And so they. So I got on there and I was just like, yeah, you know, women like making babies, like that's not like, like they do, like sure some don't, but, you know, pretty much they do and they all got real mad about that one. And I had to just walk a bunch of people because they were just uh, uh, that's really and, you know, they'd like, well, I hate you.

1:05:29 I don't want to have kids Rio, this. I had this terrible experience in childbirth in it. Scarred me from having children is just like on and on and on and I was like, okay well like there wouldn't be so many people if women did not like babies and weren't Willing to have like we just there wouldn't be so many of us like this isn't about like something, so I don't really get into it. Kind of like deep deep doctrines because like really simple things can be hard for people. Oh yeah. And so, there was that. And then there was another one that sometimes random ones, like the algorithm on Tick, Tock, just like kicks it off. You'll get a bunch of use and you can never tell why the other one was just random one way around. Somebody tried to pull and say like if you if you follow Jesus you should be a socialist, is Jesus wasn't hahahaha response for that.

1:06:33 I remember that part of The Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said, don't give it to the poor, give it to a big government for them to redistribute. I totally remember that part. I was there, right? Right. Yeah. Like they're getting a lot of Mileage out of Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars. You know, they they really are yeah. Wait, wait a so it's not the only thing he said, when a socialist tries to make make that argument that, you know, and you're seeing it creeped out of BYU more and more now where it's like, oh yeah, you know, really the law of Consecration and United order that's just socialism with a religious bent and I'm like, slow your roll. It's nothing of the sort.

1:07:17 And to be fair to them a lot of times, and I'm not an expert on this area, but a lot of times, it kind of was in practice. I don't think that drives with like, what the Doctrine and Covenants, says it should be. But there were kind of a lot of the attempts that United order. I think probably did have a little too much control and not enough. Read em and how they went about since I agree with you, but you could see different flavors of it being attempted, especially in the Utah period, right? I mean, yeah, if I'm not mistaken, Brigham City, was started off as a United order, and did really well, and maintained maximum freedom.

1:08:05 And, and, and whatever, within that system, and did very well at it, there were other places, it didn't do that. And I think, I think that comes from probably folks not having a real good understanding of what the Doctrine and Covenants. A can says concerning you know the law of consecration United order but yeah, no there, there definitely were experiments where it was way, top down and those failed quickly. Yeah, yeah. And that's something I would like to do a deep dive into and get a little bit more. Maybe you can find somebody who knows all about that. Sounds like I already have? Yeah, well, I haven't.

1:08:49 Yeah, I need to but because I know I mean all I know about it is like or durval and the story that I heard when I was a kid and the church was that the whole thing fell apart because a bunch of the boys wanted, like, the new fashionable pants that were being sold and they didn't like the pants that the Knighted order was making for them. And, and that like, was the Domino that like, brought the whole thing to a collapse and now that I'm an adult, and I'm looking back on that. Like, I don't think that was the full story. No. No. That was not. You were correct.

1:09:32 That's awesome. So, it sounds like you've got as many haters as you do people who are loving what you're doing, right? Yeah. And there's Because that's been my experience, right? I have equal parts. Dave, you're a dirtbag and equal parts. Dave thanks for doing that right? I mean there? Yeah yeah well and there's there's it's kind of interesting like who isn't hater because they're they're a lot of like expose that are the like the content that I that I put out. There's one he's on there as black smell.

1:10:13 Same Spencer, but he's the black ex-mormon. And his kind of the whole point of his content is the church is racist, and the church was Ray said, and like, that's his like, whole thing. And I get on there, and I'm like, yeah, pretty sure they shouldn't have gotten rid of the, the priesthood van. I think that probably should have stayed in place. And he and I are kind of Pals, which is because, I think for him, it's just like, oh, he's honest like I'm not trying to like lie and tell me what he thinks, I want to hear, he's telling me what he thinks, you know, and I think that just that alone can be so refreshing for some that even if they hate what you're saying, they're just glad that you're not being a coward about it.

1:11:07 Yeah. And and to be honest I think we're in a time now where people don't want you to have those kind of conversations, right? They just want to slap a label on somebody and be like, Okay. There were done, we don't have to listen to them anymore, because if you have a conversation, if you have a heart to heart. So to speak, all of a sudden, we're not so different from everybody else. And if the guy I disagree with is more like me than what I thought. Well now, all of a sudden we don't have to be so separated, we can be like yeah, I just agree with you. I think you're wrong. But I respect your opinion, right. At least, I can at least say that you, you know, try to understand.

1:11:50 And I think that makes the, the folks, whether it's the media, or politicians, whatever. I think that makes them very nervous II. Don't, I don't think they like that a lot. And so, any time we have a conversation like we're doing here or when you put your stuff out on Tick-Tock, I think that's almost a shot across the bow to a lot of the powers-that-be right now of. Yeah, we gotta shut this. Down because if people all the sudden come to this idea that that the ones we've labeled crazy maybe aren't so crazy and they're just people too. That leaves a lot of room for understanding and maybe it's not in the power structures. Best interest in that they can't keep us separated anymore. Yeah I really I really resonate with a lot of that because it's that was like one of the like Pleasant things that's come out of Being on Tick Tock is being able to have, like, friendly conversations with people.

1:12:48 That like I'm not, they don't agree with me and that's not why we're talking. It's because it's like, oh, here's someone who's actually coming forward and saying what they think and, and, you know, with with Spencer, with the the black ex-mormon he he and I were able to kind of connect, like, we both went through a divorce. We we both have two sons that are like, Pretty close and too similar ages. And so we were able to kind of connect on to sort of a human level of having some similar experiences and the that's a that's a I think that's a beautiful thing whenever you can see that. So yeah, if there's anyone who is listening to this and thinking that they want to get on sick, dog likes, hop in, you know there's there's plenty of room. Yeah.

1:13:39 Yeah. And I've said that to I'm like We're a big enough community that one or two voices isn't going to be enough, right? We need to have a lot of different perspectives because certainly I can be wrong a lot. In fact, one of my first episodes was me just introducing myself saying, I'm going to say things are going to piss you off at some point. Just kind of count on that, right? And when I'm wrong I'm willing to say I'm wrong, right? And and yeah, just just being able to admit, you know, you Yeah, we're going to have our differences but that doesn't mean we have to hate each other either. Yeah well it's kind of like I might be wrong but I'm not lying, right?

1:14:21 Like this is what I think this is why I think it. Here's how I got to where I'm at and and I think you can do that with anyone and anyone who's willing to do that, like you can have a productive conversation. Yeah, and the more people that are out there talking, I think it's just better all the way around because again, I mean, more Mormon fundamentalists are just as unique as anybody else, right? I mean to try to, to homogenize, any group of people is a disservice to individuals and yeah, more voices. The better. What what are some of the the best responses you? Got like, like, what's something that you weren't prepared for as far as someone saying thanks for doing this? Well, I kind of mentioned already though, the most like, unexpected one.

1:15:21 You know, I think that there's been there was one kid at BYU-Idaho I shouldn't call me kid. He's a grown man, you know, but I just think because he's in his early 20s that BYU-Idaho and He saw my Tic tocs and he said, oh well, I'm starting a podcast and you seem interesting like and I interview you and I like sure and I had like had, you know, just a handful of videos on there. Like I, you know, and he was just starting this like this was just kind of a project for him. He's like, well, I'm going to start this this podcast and so I was one of the first people that I interviewed on there. And for me, like, I just like that, because That just felt like the connection to sort of like a younger version of myself like triangles speaking.

1:16:15 Back in time to to someone else who was in a similar situation and he's like you know, asking me all these questions and because it is kind of exciting when you're like oh wait like fundamentalist one, they've got a much stronger case than we ever thought they did. They've got a good, they're raising some good points at least. And they aren't scary, weird creepy people right? So that was, yeah, I really like that. But I had a lot of responses kind of across the board from from good people who were. Yeah, I I feel like we're having a fundamentalist moment right now in society.

1:17:05 I really do with I started the podcast. I got through three or four episodes before under the banner of Heaven came out and I thought, oh crap, we wipe right. I can't not address this, right? And then you had keep sweet, whatever it was the Netflix one-on-one the way. Yep. And then then the Mormon, no more one that came out. And so right? As I fired this up, I had All of this coming, right? And I think, I think it's one of those times where you look at your, like, this is kind of a fundamentalist moment here. And if we're not out there talking well, we've seeded ground, right? We've just, we've just regressed where we're not, we're not engaging and we're allowing others to frame who we are and what we believe.

1:17:58 And there's a real danger in that, right? I mean, you you then become the other and in doing Doing that. It's a lot easier to make people into monsters or any any such thing as that. Yeah, you know and what that brings to mind is whenever I talk to my boys because they're, they're eight and six years old and so when I talk to them about like bullies standing up for yourself and standing your ground, there's this little clip on YouTube. I found of A hiker, who comes across a mountain?

1:18:39 And it's, he's recording this interaction where he stands his ground against this Mount, and he just stands there. He just starts shouting us his chest up and he's like, you get away from me, he starts yelling at this cougar and and the mountain lion, just like stops. And his kind of confused because the like a second ago, this was pray and I could destroy it. And now it's not scared of you now, I don't Know what to do. And he just keeps like he doesn't move towards the the mountain lion. He doesn't like threatened it but he stands his ground and started shouting and then eventually the cat just gets kind of confused and things like, well, I'm gonna go find my meal somewhere else and, you know, runs off and I think that applies to us because there's been so much fear with fundamentalists.

1:19:35 We've got like, You know, the Arizona raised that happened like 50s or in and we're, we've had so much persecution where we have the sphere. And we think I need to hide, I need to stay away. I need to keep everyone safe. And we have that mentality that we want to shrink and hide ourselves, just lay low. Keep your head low. Yeah, and I kind of get it. Right. Because those are societal scars, right? As I talked to, some of the old timers in fundamentalism, those scars are still very real. These are, these are guys who either have been taken, right? I know of one guy in particular who was a child taken out of short Creek, right?

1:20:28 And he talks about the separation in the Heartbreak. So I don't want to make light of folks who have lived through that because those is do bear, societal scars. However guys like you and I were from a different generation and different time, right? Where we don't have those scars and I think I feel it in my gut deep that we're in this fundamentalist moment and we have got to open our mouths. And the thing is like when you're being portrayed as this like terrible person, there's this in the mindset of That predator of a mountain lion. If you try to run away You're confirming that you really are prey and I should be chasing.

1:21:16 And so if people are saying oh fundamentalist or all pedophiles, they're all creepy cult leader. They're doing all these terrible things. They're all they mistreat their wives, they abused their kids like all these terrible things if you run and hide in their mind they think. Ink. It must be true if they're running away in there, hiding. I guess all those things I said about them, because they, why would you run away? If, you know, if you're feeling guilty, it must be that. That's not true, you know? It's just like, you know, look good, people have had terrible things happen to them for truth sake and Christ told us and The Sermon on the Mount. He said that that would happen, but he said that We would be blessed when men speak evil of us and revile against us. But it's if they speak evil of you falsely, those are the evil has to be false.

1:22:20 If the evil they speak about, you is true, you're not blessed. But if you're hearing false, things said about you, you have to stand your ground. You have to stand up and say that's not true, and you need to kind of put yourself out there, so that there isn't so that that image is challenged. That's when the mountain, lion backs away and leaves you alone is when you don't run away. You don't ask Yeah, and and not only does it, does this idea of getting out there and saying, yeah, you know, I I'm a fundamentalist not only does that help for kind of self preservation of fundamentalism as a community, but I think also we're going to come into a time here real fast where I think you're going to have a lot of mainstream LDS. Folks, starting to question some things and I'm not sure. Let me rephrase.

1:23:21 I know for a fact that it's fundamentalist who are uniquely positioned to be able to answer some of those questions as they start coming forward because we've done our homework, right? We've been we've either been exposed to it because we've lived in those communities or we've come out of the LDS church and we've gone through that and in some ways it's kind of a it's kind of a contradiction. It seems on the surface but in some ways we might be the The ones uniquely positioned to help save some of that membership for the church. If not Mormonism in general, right? Not not having to throw the baby out with the bathwater because you're right. You said earlier there, there seems to be two ways you can go when you learn about this, right? There's three but predominantly to one is that you leave the church entirely you throw the baby out with the bathwater. The second is you become a fundamentalist and then every once in a while you find somebody who can learn all this and then stay in the church, Really, it's those first two options you got.

1:24:23 So if we're in the in the in the business of trying to save Souls of trying to get people to a better plane, a better way of life, we might be the ones uniquely positioned at this moment with in church history, certainly LDS history certainly Mormon history of stepping to the Forefront and kind of answering that call a little bit. Yeah. Well and because what we're dealing with is kind of the virtual Warfare, we're in 1890, the church made an agreement with Babylon. They said we will submit to you. If you you take the persecution away, you take the threat and the fear away and will do what you say. And so, you know, the church, I often say that the church will be just as righteous as Satan will give them permission. And, and that's what it is.

1:25:25 And a lot of people have a hard time hearing that, but it isn't so much plural marriage. It's the fact, like any Doctrine. If it had been baptisms for the dead, you know, and they had agreed to stop doing that. Like you are saying to Babylon, will do what you want, you know, let us be a part of your system, let us be and and Yeah, we're going to teach people about Jesus Christ and we know you guys don't like that, but we'll, we'll keep them away from the deeper things. We're not going to let them know about plural, marriage, fractional, let them know about the law of consecration. No, we're not going to let their all about second anointings and the fullness of where he stood.

1:26:12 We're not going to teach them how to become king and a priest, and queens and priestesses. Well, we'll keep all that information wave. So they can just be good, productive citizens, never questioned, anything and that's really what happened. And so the church is always going to cave. And every time they do, Some people wake up and it's a minority, but, you know, I another thing that happened to me when I was in the church and I'm just recalling is as I Was preparing for my mission. When I went through the temple and they did the washing anointings. I went in right after they made a change to that. And they did the washroom anointings and they said we wash and anoint you only symbolically as like, wait, why am I being symbolically?

1:27:07 Washing anointed, shouldn't I be actually washing it? Yes I don't understand. You know and I was just like I'm not symbolically baptized you know right and and that stuck with me and I had no answer for that at all. But it was one of those things that like stuck with me And it wasn't years later before I figured out like, oh, they changed it. You know, one of them in 2019, they made, they kind of said, all right. Feminist. You can rewrite the temple and will take out all the stuff that makes you feel icky. Yep. And they did it again and they're gonna keep doing it because Babylon.

1:27:50 Doesn't like the kingdom of God. These are two separate kingdoms. They're two different jurisdictions. And they will continue to whittle away at what level of righteousness. The church is allowed to promote and the, and when that happens, not the majority, but a small minority in the church is going to say. But wait, no, that was real like, If I had a testimony of that, they told me that they wouldn't change it and then they did and they didn't come and say, thus, saith the Lord unto my people. It was just, it was what the government wanted, every was what Society wanted.

1:28:35 It was the popular thing to do and that can't be why you changed something. And people are going to have those questions. And just like you said, if we're not out there, How, you know, it's they can still find it, you know, like there were people that had their digging back in the day that helped us but, you know, as much as we can, I think we should make it a little easier for those people and give them a hand to help. Hold them up when they see that. The church has only following that along. Absolutely. And you know, that the other thing that that I think we have to do as a community is not do the i-told-you-so game, right? Which is really tough to do.

1:29:28 Because certainly, as I've come out as a fundamentalist, I've had all sorts of people coming around and well, Okay, I'll share this story. I don't think I've ever shared this on the podcast before but I will, when when I went in and told my leadership hey I'm done in the LDS church. It's been great. I have no animosity but I'm out. I remember that they sent over because I was in a position of leadership when I did this and they sent somebody over to try to like talk me back off the ledge so to Speak write and I won't name names but this guy's father is a seventy okay.

1:30:16 And he said what what problems are you seeing? And I named off a bunch and one of them was the kind of the caving that we were starting to see around the lgbtq issue. Right? And I just told him, I said, look and in 20 to 30 years, probably you're going to, I think you'll end Seeing gay marriages solemnised, in solemnized in the temple and he said that will never happen. Well, fast forward, only three years later and the church came out in support of the bill to back, you know, gay marriage that while they came out and said we still believe it's between a man and a woman, but we're going to back this bill.

1:31:02 Make no mistake there, their seating, the ground for four. Seismic change. And even this guy whose dad is a 70, I saw him on the road, the other day, you know, just out for a walk because I still live in the same neighborhood. I left the church in, and I live, I live in Orem, right? So it's, you know, great. Yeah. It's it's, you know and yeah your neighborhood is your ward here? We just stopped and talked and he said, you know, you may be right and everything in me at that point Benjamin wanted to be. Like, I told you, I told you you didn't listen it.

1:31:43 And one of the few times that I listen to the spirit, right? As I try to be better. I'm like, don't I feel the spirit to go, don't do that because that's just short circuit, anything. So, as people are coming out and discovering all this, we can't be because everything in, you wants to be like, Mike, Culture, I told you, you didn't listen, we can't do that, we got to be able to take a step back, a little bit and be like, it's okay. It's alright, a lot of people didn't know, it's cool, right? And then be able to Shepherd them along. And we got to remember like that was us to, you know, like that, that was us and they're doing the same thing that we did where they're like, no, no. Like, it can't be that like the church can't be an apostasy like that has to be wrong, you know?

1:32:31 And they're they're trying to negotiate that and hold on to them. We all did the same thing. Absolutely. The church we all do the same thing. I think you know, like you mentioned here And I think Congress, kind of have an easier time because they're like, well I I already like, you know, lost family and friends and rebuilt. Like, what I thought I knew about the world. Let's do it again. You know, it'll be a little easier. Second time around. It is easier for converts because we've already stripped down to the foundation once before. So doing it again, doesn't seem as terrifying. Yeah, definitely. Now my wife had a much easier time with things because She's kind of funny. Like she grew up in a in a very secular home and they're you know her parents are honorable people but just not religious and she um, she read the New Testament when she was a teenager and was like, oh like This is right, you know, like and so then she was just like, okay, well, who are the Christians that like, are actually trying to do what this says, you know, like it isn't the like Christmas and Easter crowd.

1:33:48 And so, she started attending church with a group of Mennonites at because like they're they were taking their religion. Seriously, and, you know, she came across some missionaries and From the church and started reading the book of Mormon. But she had kind of she'd heard about plural marriage and she thought it through and she was like a lot, actually sounds like a really great. I like, I think I would like that, you know, that sounds like a great idea. So she was asking the missionaries about that, my vote. I'm sorry, I do love the LDS missionaries but I'm not going to lie, I do enjoy the squirm, right?

1:34:31 Because I remember when I like so, Please. Yeah, I remember when I told you I was kind of inoculation so to speak early on because I got my hands on some excerpts from the Journal of discourses and I remember I slid over the atom God stuff to this one Elder and I watched him squirm. And then later I saw the bishop squirm and the stake president, squirmed a little less, but was still squirming. I'm a fan of the squirm. I must admit, when when that uncomfortable in this happens, I'm like, oh good. This is exactly. Lee where I want to be. We're all a little guilty of that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So for her, you know, the missionaries were like, wow, we don't believe that. That was, we did that a long time ago, gonna do that anymore. And she, and she was like, oh, okay. Well, that's kind of.

1:35:20 All right. Well, whatever in. But she read the book of Mormon. She got a testimony of it. And then when she and I met, I was like, all right. Let me tell you about the atom God doctor and the 1886 Revelation and, you know, and she, she was like, this is great, you know, like this. She had been like I've been in the church for like three or four years now at this point and I stopped learning anything new. Yeah, here's to go and the fact that someone can actually tell me something that I didn't know through. And through already is kind of amazing. Yeah, I'll say this for convert. Well, let me just speak for myself.

1:36:02 I think you only come into Mormonism is a convert when maybe there's something a little wrong with you, right. And I say that because I know I was certainly looking for Redemption. I was looking for my father's Redemption who had passed on before me, I had gotten into some really horrible habits drinking being one of them. I was really good at that naturally, and I just remember standing in the font and I said, you know what, God I will Follow this out to its most logical conclusion, wherever your truth is, I will follow that no matter what. So I think I think converts or people who've had that conversion experience even if you were raised in Mormonism, I think we all have to go through that but I think I think there comes a point at which you're just like whatever the truth is consequences, be damned. This is what I'm doing.

1:36:58 Yeah. Yeah, it does come down to that but I just like because you know, when I talk to my wife about my experience, like she doesn't get all of the like Kicking and Screaming that I did to try and like hold on to the church because she would just like, well like once you learn what happened, you go with that. And I was like, yeah but like, yeah. Anyway what was a lot? I had this whole like emotional thing that I had to get over and she was just like, oh, Great. You can do plural, marriage, still? Let's do that. You know. Yeah, you know, I think part of it is to and again, this is only speaking from my experience and my wife was raised in the church, but she was really gung-ho about fundamentalism more so than I was when even after, you know, things went sideways a little bit there for a while, she was pretty gung-ho about it.

1:37:55 But the one thing I did notice is that Even with as gung-ho is she was, she still had to contend with the feelings of? I'm letting my whole family down. I am disrupting, what, my family has done for centuries, right? We went to the LDS church because that's what we did. As whoever you are. The Smiths are the Jones, your whatever. We go to the LDS church, and there's this fear of losing your children. And, you know, Having Heaven Not Be Heaven because not all your kids are there and so it can be, it's got to be horrible, right?

1:38:36 And you have all these fond memories as a kid growing up in the LDS church and and and working the program and so changing that can be super scary and I think that's something that's fundamentalist. We have to be cognizant of as well. Is that look a lot of these folks are stepping out into a place that is Foreign it is different than what they've known and it's upending. A lot of things that people held as truth and infallible. Yeah, well, and one of the things that the church does in general, I don't know about like, you know, different sex might be doing things. Okay.

1:39:17 But one of the things that the church does really well, is they have organization? Like it's, you know, No, who's in charge of what and like you've got a manual for everything. And you know, like if you want to know how like how is the right way to do this, like there's a manual and there's the person in charge and and that is a brings a sense of safety. You know, the problem is with the top down approach, everyone's on the same page, but if the leaders were wrong, it's the wrong page. So the organization Can be a hindrance but it still feels safe and so people leaving that and coming into fundamentalism and it's sort of the Wild West with fundamentalist.

1:40:06 It's like well it's kind of hard a lot of times to see a safe landing Place. Yeah. Yep. And I think that's going to be the challenge, right? We have to we have to be in such a place spiritually that we're comfortable getting our answers directly from God but also So here I think here's the bigger challenge. We have to be willing and then become comfortable with this idea of can I be a soft landing spot for somebody else, right? Can I be that guy that when someone's like, so what do I do on Sunday now? Right and then you say, you know what, come to my house, we have Sacramento my house, we have a little, a little, You Know, lesson that we go over, we have a family discussion come be part of that. And so we have to be able to Extend that and be comfortable being that soft landing spot for somebody else. Yeah yeah we really do.

1:41:02 I mean you know, our Pioneer ancestors planted crops that they knew they weren't going to eat for the future people who were coming to do and people have done that for us. You know I wasn't going to do like I wasn't going to do all of the research that Uranium did to bring everything about Adam God together on this, you know. Like it was enough work for me to like get through the book. Like that was, I was like my effort and so and there's tons of people who, who worked and labored and suffered, who put us in a better position and to benefit us. And we have to, we have to be that chain to the next Like, we have to deepen an increase our spirituality. We have to improve our ability and receive Revelation and then we have to make the road please here was absolutely. So what's your plans for for your? I don't know what your channels on Tick-Tock. How's that work?

1:42:19 I'm not sure. Like I said I'm I'm kind of a technophobe so yeah page. Ages. There's a lot of topics I haven't covered that. I still want to, I've had a couple people who are on the like Pro LDS church side. You know, I'd there's one Creator who said I was like, well, I like If Joseph, Smith really did teach the atom God doctor. And I'd take that a lot more, seriously, you know, he's like, I still think it was just Brigham, the made it up, you know, so I'm like, all right. Well, I gotta, I gotta go with that and detail and, you know, lay all that out.

1:43:04 And so, yeah, there's a lot of things that I want to do if I've just kind of having a bite size, Segment put out there but there's so much that people can do one of the things that like, I've learned an observation that I've made from like the TLC shows that have been out there. I think that's if anyone offers you a bunch of money to like, have your family filmed, I would decline that run run, there are better ways to do what you want to do with that. At that aren't going to come with like a lot of pressure to like have fights with your wives and stuff, don't do that. But like there's so many like I know that there are families out there that are doing homesteading, you know, their polygamous families that like they're there are whole like YouTube channels and Tick-Tock pages that are totally dedicated to homesteading where and that's like Here's me, milking my cow. And this is how I do that.

1:44:17 And this is how we take care of the goats and the chickens and like, people watch that. And they think that's interesting do if that's if someone listening to that and that's your situation do that with your wives and talk about what it's like doing that as a plural family. I know that there are people who could do that really easily like I'm kind of focused on breaking down dog. Aaron and I'm just trying to take like these things to the church. Used to teach the doesn't anymore. That have been preserved through fundamentalism, and I want to put it out in like simple, easy-to-understand bite-size formats, but that isn't what everyone has to do. Get on there.

1:45:04 Like, if you've got something unique and if you're living plural, marriage, you're pretty unique to a lot of people, if you are, you know, If you're an interesting person who has a cool hobby, if you really like hunting, if you really like, you know, whatever you're into, there are segments of tick-tock that are all about that weird obscure hobby that you have. And if you've got that and your fundamentalist like, get on Tick Tock and just be both, you know, like talk about your the stuff that you're into and be open about being a fundamentalist and a. And like that's going to break down barriers for people, then you're not a scary person.

1:45:51 You're a real human being. Absolutely. Well dude, that's good stuff. We've been at this now just shy of two hours. So anything you want to say that? You didn't say Nami and I think I covered it. I just yeah. Like I guess just to reiterate like if we don't speak up for ourselves, other people are going to be happy to do it and they're going to take the very worst version of what we believe out there and make it seem like That is the only thing and, you know, get out there if you're happy healthy, people who are doing things the right way. Let your light shine get out there, big cock, YouTube, whatever you do, but let people see what you're doing. And that's going to have a huge effect on people. Perfect couldn't have said it any better myself. Benjamin, thanks for being here, man. Yeah, thanks so much.

1:46:53 Let's do it again now. I tell everybody this once you're on once you have a standing invitation. So okay, it's got something you want to talk about you. Let me know will make the time cool. Yeah, that'd be awesome. All right, dude, it was awesome. Let's do it again. All right, thanks David. Thanks. Bye everybody.