Episode #41: A Mormon Fundamentalist On TikTok W/Benjamin Winfield

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So, few months back, I was
scrolling through my Facebook

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feed and I saw a post from
someone that caught my eye, I

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clicked on the link.
And what I found was a guy who

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was a Mormon fundamentalist, who
was using short Tick-Tock videos

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to explain Mormon fundamentalism
as well as to push back against

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misunderstandings and erroneous
teachings.

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About the restored gospel that
man's name is Benjamin Winfield.

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On this episode Benjamin and I
have a fascinating conversation.

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We talked about how he became a
fundamentalist, how he found

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himself, being the voice of
Mormon fundamentalism on Tick,

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Tock, some of his interactions
with different people on social

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media and where he sees his
presence on Tick-Tock, going in

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the future along the way, we
cover a few gospel principles,

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and even dive into what we can
do is fundamentalist to reach

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out to folks, not of our faith
stick around for that and more

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on this edition of the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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So, I just want to take a moment
to thank you.

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The Listener, when I started
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anyone would really listen.
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great deal to me now, as a
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aware of how important time is.
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Thank you.
Your listing to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Welcome back to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast as always you
can get ahold of me either by

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Also we have a website up and
that's Mormon Renegade.com, so

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go check that out.
Well, Benjamin how you doing,

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man?
I'm doing great.

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So do you like to go by Ben or
Benjamin?

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Either one is fine, you know.
Okay, I'm good.

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You can call me Ben, I won't be
offended.

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All right, fantastic.
So I wanted to have you on

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because I feel like in some ways
you're a guy that's kind of near

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and dear to my heart.
You you put out Tick Tock videos

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on Mormon fundamentalism, which
I think it's just great.

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I've said for a long time, if we
don't get to frame our story,

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somebody else is more than happy
to do it for us and they're not

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going to be as Truthful.
Or Nuance to say you and I are

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going to be Yeah, well that's
kind of that's kind of why I

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wanted to do it.
I'd seen you know, of course,

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maronna Jessup is on Tick Tock
and he was he was on there

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before I was.
And I like that because he has a

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lot of experience, but it's that
like framing that other people

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do that, kept me away from
fundamentalism for such a long

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time that I really felt that
That that I was like well like

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if the good people aren't
letting their light shine, then

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you're only going to hear about
Warren Jeffs.

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Exactly.
Not like and that's what is in

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people's Consciousness and so
you got to get out there and you

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got to talk and you got to see
the fundamentalist aren't scary,

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evil people who are crazy weird
things.

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Absolutely.
What brought you into

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fundamentalism?
Were you born a fundamentalist

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did Like convert from the LDS
church, what's your backstory a

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little bit there so it's kind of
a long and circuitous path that

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I took but I was raised in the
church and you know I'll find

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looking at like my very first
exposure to fundamentalism is

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kind of going back.
I was a teenager and somehow I

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came across like Ogden krauts
95.

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Jesus.
I found out like online and I

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just kind of like think I was
like 15 16 somewhere around

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there and I had just like
recently really gotten a

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testimony of the Gospel just by
going to Seminary and reading

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the book and I was just kind of
like on fire and I was like well

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I want to be really prepare for
my mission.

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So I want to know everything.
I want to be able to answer like

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all the hard questions and all
this stuff and we came across

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our great crowd and at first it
Like, well, this guy is an

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apostate and obviously
everything that she says is, you

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know, but like there were so
many things like stuck with me

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to the point where, like, I'd be
having conversations with people

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and I'd be like, well, you know,
Brigham Young said, you know,

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such and such.
And then I think I'm like, wait,

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I got that from watching crowns
or I, I got that, you know, That

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was kind of my first exposure
but I really just like Shrugged

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it off and I'm not was that for
four years to come and I served

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a mission for the church and I
served in Chicago, I really

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loved it.
Had a lot of really wonderful

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experiences.
Very spiritual experiences that

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really helped shape me.
These are for just a second

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Benjamin if you don't mind.
What's it like?

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So by the time you go on your
mission, are you still doing

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Austin crowd as an apostate?
Yeah.

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Pretty much.
I kind of like it was this like

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Yeah, the short answer is yes,
but but like, I kind of had this

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like kind of affection Brewing,
you know, where I was like, well

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he's had some good things you
know, like hey here he brought

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up some good points there but
like you know, William has for

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bad right?
You know, and I grew up in

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Springville Utah.
Okay.

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And I was I don't remember how
old I was a kid.

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When like Tom Green.
Got arrested.

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Okay, he was from there.
He was living in Springville at

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the time and so it was a big
thing and you heard all the

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older people talking and
gossiping about it and had the I

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had a bishop at the time.
Whose last name is green.

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Obviously no relation but it
was, you know, just so it's just

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something.
Everyone was like, buzzing

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about.
And and so I kind of grew up

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like Viewing polygamist is these
like bad people.

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Scary people, you want to stay?
I like that attitude.

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Kind of carried with me for a
lot of took me a long time to

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like really see through that and
see the the misdirection and

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deception that was but that I
carry with me for a long time?

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Like yeah.
Well, these guys are like

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creeps, you know, they're very
interested in underage girls,

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they're doing, you know.
And now I just kind of had that

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like hanging around the house.
Like these people So, so you're

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you going your mission, right?
And so, it sounds like, your

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kind of viewing.
Ogden crowd is like the less

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scary version of fundamentalist,
right?

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Yeah.
I think so.

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Yeah.
I think that's a good way of

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putting it where I was like,
well, he seemed like a pretty

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good guy, you know, but still
wrong, you know, was kind of

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where I was at when I went on a
mission and I had and I hadn't

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really like dive too deep.
And talked about.

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So I didn't have like a really
good understanding, I kind of

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like skim through 95 like and I
was sort of the extent of

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exposure So yeah.
So that's where I was and I, you

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know, and then I'd run into the
like Adam God Doctrine on my

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mission a couple times.
And and it was the standard

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thing where you're like, oh
don't listen to that Brigham

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Young was, he was misquoted.
That's not what he really means.

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I don't know what the context
is, but I'm sure if you looked

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into it, it would be totally not
what it sounds like, yep.

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Dude, we've all heard those.
Those right?

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And it's like, you know, know
yeah, I've heard everything from

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it, was just a idea that Brigham
was talking about or it was a

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theory, not a Doctrine or he was
misquoted or, you know, the guy

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who was transcribing made a
mistake and I'm like, when you

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look at the context, you're
like, oh no.

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The first time he speaks about
it publicly.

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It's General Conference.
And he's speaking from the

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pulpit and he's going hard.
I mean, he's going like to Hours

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worth of this is who God is.
So yeah, what we do look at the

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context, it's pretty pretty cut
and dry.

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Yeah, it really is and of course
you know I didn't do that till

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later so it was you know, you
follow the line of.

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He didn't say that.
Okay.

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Well that's not what he did say
that but that's not what he

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meant by.
That was like well maybe that's

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what he meant, but it was just
this idea that he had, it wasn't

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the doctrine of the church,
okay?

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It was The doctrine of the
church, but it was wrong still,

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and maybe way to set, you know,
and by then you're like, wait a

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second.
I'm on Shaky Ground.

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Yeah.
All the sudden you're doing G,

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mental gymnastics.
It would make Olympians proud,

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right?
I mean, you're back flipping off

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some bar that you're reaching
for you.

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I know I get it and what's funny
is you can almost set your watch

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to that whole process, right?
You can, you can wait till

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someone, you hear something
about the atom God, and then

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like start your watch.
And it's just going to they're

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going to go through those steps
every time.

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So what was your mission?
Like really one of the best

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experiences of my life.
I was I'm not I will always be

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grateful to the church for
having that experience.

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It was, you know, you get to
talk to all kinds of different

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people.
You're having all these crazy

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experiences.
You get these You get, you know,

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older people with real life
problems that are just like

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pouring their souls out to you
and trusting you and your this

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young kid who doesn't know
anything and just a wonderful

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experience, I think it was as a
missionary that I really

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developed a testimony of the
atonement of Jesus Christ.

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And that's something you know.
Nice, very cool.

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So after you finish up your
mission, you head home.

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Is there, is there anything that
happens on that mission that

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maybe starts tearing your
towards fundamentalism or, or

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does the mission just kind of
reinforce your LDS perspective

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on the world?
It really was a pretty standard

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at that time.
I was a pretty standard LDS guy.

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I I think I had some like,
Leanings towards fundamentalism.

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But I just, I think I just
assumed everyone else in the

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church did to, you know.
So there were things like I just

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assumed that everyone knew and
believed that Christ practice

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book marriage.
I thought that was like a

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non-controversial thing because,
you know, I was kind of a

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bookworm and I had read that
that was taught in the early

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days.
And I just kind of like was

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like, okay?
Okay, that's how it is and then

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you talk to people, and it's
like, controversial, that Jesus

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was married.
And then well, well not only was

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he married, but Mary two or
three times, right?

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He was a repeat offender, right?
So and so there were things like

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00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:18,100
that where I think I kind of was
a little bit of a fundamentalist

223
00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:23,500
I just didn't realize I was but
it really like I came home from

224
00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:29,100
my mission, you know.
Got married in the temple, kind

225
00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:32,500
of had this like very
conventional experience of this

226
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:37,200
point for for LDS people who are
raised in the church and work in

227
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,600
the plan.
Yeah yeah really I think the the

228
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:48,100
whole I got home from my mission
and 2008 and it was like in the

229
00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:54,400
airport on my way home, the CNN
was blasting like the raid on

230
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,200
the yearning for Zion.
Ranch.

231
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,100
I'm so like I just have that as
like this distinct memory, but I

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00:15:03,108 --> 00:15:09,300
was like, oh, and so I'm not
like was maybe another thing

233
00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:14,000
that reinforced like, man, those
polygamist are just really awful

234
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,400
people, you know.
And, you know, maybe there's

235
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,200
like some some people that are
innocent because they're

236
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,900
ignorant but all the leaders are
bad.

237
00:15:23,900 --> 00:15:28,100
You know, and I'll sort of like
I wasn't really looking for a

238
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:32,700
further, right?
I had because of the little bit

239
00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:35,500
of Agra crowd that I had read.
I have this like, vague

240
00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:39,400
understanding that there were
others that like weren't like

241
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:40,800
that.
But that's really all.

242
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:46,400
I was.
It wasn't until I was, I was at

243
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,600
BYU-Idaho and I can't remember
how I came across it at first,

244
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:55,700
but I read something that kind
of tipped me off to the idea

245
00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:58,400
that there might be a little bit
more to this whole atom God

246
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:04,000
thing than being misquoted and I
came across Drew Brian.

247
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,000
He's booked.
Okay understanding Adam God's

248
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,500
teachings.
Wait that was it was that the at

249
00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:21,300
the be we be yui Library, it was
hahaha but somewhere somewhere.

250
00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:25,200
There was a fundamentalist who
was like donating books and and

251
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:26,900
you know it was probably Young
kidneys.

252
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:31,300
Like watch this you know it it
was a Mormon version of hold my

253
00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:34,800
beer while I go stash a version
of Adam.

254
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,400
God in the be yui Library.
No.

255
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:42,100
Actually it was in this special
collections section of the

256
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:45,700
library so you couldn't just
pull it off the shelf.

257
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,300
And in fact, like the thing that
it reminded me of it was really

258
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:53,000
eerie.
I I heard this interview from

259
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:59,200
this like Soviet Defector Who
had who talk because he was an

260
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,700
economist in the Soviet Union
and I'm His Name Escapes me.

261
00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:08,200
But he talked about how he was
given special permission to read

262
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,700
books about like free-market
economics and he had to go to

263
00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:17,599
this library at the check-in,
put his name on a list and then

264
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:20,400
there were men with guns that
would like watch him like while

265
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:28,600
he read the books, you know, and
And it like it wasn't that bad

266
00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:33,200
but it felt so Eerie because you
had to like sign in they brought

267
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,500
the book out to you on a table,
you were allowed to take notes,

268
00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,900
but like there was a person
watching you, like, while you

269
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:43,100
read it.
I was like, this is weird.

270
00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:48,900
You know, I've always said and
my apologies to anyone who ever

271
00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:52,800
went to be yui, but we use, I
used to look at BYU-Idaho and be

272
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,700
like, that's like, Mormon
Taliban country, right?

273
00:17:55,700 --> 00:18:00,800
I mean, I mean they made BYU
Provo look downright like

274
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,100
Alabama or something.
That low parole.

275
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:04,900
Right?
Well, we all thought that they

276
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:06,400
were less faithful.
Yeah.

277
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,700
Yeah, no.
It was Progressive Mormons.

278
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,100
They show their ankles down
there.

279
00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:17,600
Yeah, that's right.
Very cool.

280
00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:20,500
So they're women, wear capris,
it's right here.

281
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:27,100
So, that's hilarious.
So you end up You end up getting

282
00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:29,100
getting ahold of Drew brownies
book.

283
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:31,600
And as you're going through it,
what's your thoughts?

284
00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:36,400
Well, after that initial
experience of this is really

285
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,300
creepy.
Having people watch me, I ended

286
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:42,500
up emailing him, and he was very
kind enough to send me a digital

287
00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:48,200
copy.
And so, I started reading that

288
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:55,200
and then I ended up moving down
to Utah later and I'm reading

289
00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:01,300
through this and it blew my mind
because I went through, like,

290
00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:06,000
all of the Like well this is
obviously wrong, you know, like

291
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,300
I went through the temple and
there's God and he's talking to

292
00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:11,300
Adam, they're not the same
person.

293
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,900
What are you talking?
You know, like like and then you

294
00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:21,300
dive a little deeper into it and
you're like, oh, turns out

295
00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:24,200
Brigham talked about that, you
know, like there's an

296
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,100
explanation for that and so many
people in the church like they

297
00:19:29,100 --> 00:19:32,800
see that one thing or like well
that conflicts with what the Is

298
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,000
now and so it must be false.
So I'm just going to completely

299
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,600
ignore it.
But then, I think if you have a

300
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,700
little bit of humility and you
think it's possible that Brigham

301
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:49,700
Young was talking about stuff
that he had no understanding of.

302
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:55,600
And if I don't understand what
he's saying, it may be that I'm

303
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,100
the one who is ignorant.
I'm not him.

304
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,200
You know, can I ask you a
question after you came to a

305
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:05,900
better understanding of Adam
God, when you went through the

306
00:20:05,900 --> 00:20:07,600
temple?
Did you start seeing like bread

307
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,100
crumbs of, Adam, God, all over
the endowment.

308
00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:14,100
Oh, yeah, yeah.
And I remember because I had I

309
00:20:14,108 --> 00:20:17,500
have an older sister, who left
the church and she kind of

310
00:20:17,508 --> 00:20:22,700
became fairly hostile to the
church over and she would, you

311
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:27,100
know, say well there they hid
their history lying about stuff

312
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:32,500
and and I always brush that off.
I was like well, no, because

313
00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:36,000
sometimes, that's sometimes that
is unfair depending on what

314
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:41,800
topic you're talking about.
But then I remember I, when I

315
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,600
was, I was going through that
book and he has Thus the him

316
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,400
sons of Michael.
Yep.

317
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,800
Which it's sort of obscure its
that doesn't get some graphic,

318
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:58,900
but it's still in the LDS
handbook and they headed it that

319
00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:01,800
pin.
Yep, to make it to take the atom

320
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:03,600
God doctor.
Yep.

321
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,200
And when I read that, I just I
felt like a ton of bricks the

322
00:21:07,208 --> 00:21:11,700
just like fell on me and I was
like, oh, like they tried to

323
00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:15,200
memory hole this Doctrine.
And make it.

324
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,600
So it didn't exist anymore.
You know it I think I have to

325
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,100
admit I think until the internet
came around they did a pretty

326
00:21:23,100 --> 00:21:25,100
good job, right?
I mean it was always out there

327
00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:29,400
on The Fringe but it wasn't
anything that that caused

328
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,300
anybody to question, really
right?

329
00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:35,600
I mean, yeah, I was kind of a, I
think because I was a convert to

330
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:42,500
the LDS church, I was kind of an
aberration because My mom had

331
00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:46,500
our local clergyman, give me
like selections from the Journal

332
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:50,900
of discourses during my
conversion process, and thinking

333
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:54,000
it would like, shoo me away
entirely, and I just found it

334
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:59,300
more and more fascinating, but I
was kind of, I won't say brought

335
00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:02,600
up that way, but I had somebody
who was willing to sit down and

336
00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,100
explain it to me a little bit,
right?

337
00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:08,400
And an older guy who had been
around for a lot of years.

338
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,700
He probably heard his old man
talking about Adam God Doctrine,

339
00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:18,200
right, right, and so yeah, for
me, it was, it wasn't so new.

340
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:19,900
I mean, it's one thing to know
about it.

341
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:23,600
Academically, it's another thing
to pray about it and figure it

342
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,500
out for folks on the inside of
the LDS church who are maybe

343
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:32,400
coming in with this idea of who
the godhead is, and then have it

344
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,900
upset, I think, I think that can
cause dramatic issues.

345
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:44,000
Yeah, it really can and you
know, it was exciting and kind

346
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,600
of scary to.
And and at this point in time,

347
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:51,000
as I'm like, gaining a testimony
of this.

348
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:58,500
I, my wife is pregnant with our
first child and we had moved to

349
00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:04,900
Utah and I looked up through
again and I didn't know he was a

350
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:09,300
fundamentalist because I I like,
oh well, he's an attorney and he

351
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:14,000
went to BYU.
So you know he's he must like,

352
00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:21,400
he must know how I can have a
testimony of this and not become

353
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,800
a fundamentalist and stay in the
church, you know?

354
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,000
Right.
Right I'm gonna go talk to him

355
00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:29,700
and he's going to set me
straight and everything's going

356
00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:35,100
to be fine and he was really
gracious.

357
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:39,300
He said well I'm Kind of
finishing up early on this

358
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:42,000
Friday.
Why don't you come by my office?

359
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,000
And we can chat for a little bit
and that turned into like this

360
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,400
like five our intensive
conversation.

361
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,000
Like both of our, you know, our
wives are like texting us our

362
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,400
phones or buzzing and we're just
ignoring it.

363
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,700
I got ya.
You know, I'm like, well, Drew,

364
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:01,200
what about this?
What about this?

365
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:09,300
And and, you know, I don't And
he would tell me like, well, you

366
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:12,700
know, Hugh Nibley.
I'm pretty sure he believes this

367
00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:14,400
Doctrine.
And, you know, he stayed in the

368
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,700
church and, you know, there's a
lot of people that you kind of

369
00:24:17,708 --> 00:24:19,600
have to keep it under wraps, but
you can.

370
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,400
Yeah, you know, you can stay in
the church and I was like, okay,

371
00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:25,500
great.
And then I was like, What are

372
00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:29,800
you believe, though?
Huh, I really feel.

373
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:35,800
I like I pressed him and he's
like, well, I have two wives.

374
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:49,000
Yeah, buckle up and you know and
I was kind of glad rejected and

375
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,800
but by then, you know, we had
been talking for much longer

376
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:59,200
than we had intended to And so
we kind of ended things over and

377
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,400
he invited us over for dinner
and we kind of got to know each

378
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,400
other.
And you know, kind of where we

379
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,600
were at.
I was having like all of these

380
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:17,100
spiritual experiences where I
was like the atom God, Doctrine.

381
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,600
Help me understand like why
plural marriage was necessary.

382
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,700
Because I was kind of okay with
like not doing plural marriage,

383
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,000
which I think a lot of people
also think that like thats the

384
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,000
drive for fundamentalist was
like, oh yeah, we want to go get

385
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:37,800
a bunch of wives and I've yet to
meet a Monta Ellis who converted

386
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,900
like so that they could get
women.

387
00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,300
That's not really, you know,
that's not a thing.

388
00:25:44,900 --> 00:25:47,900
The atom God, Doctrine was way
more important to me than

389
00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:50,400
familism then plural marriage
ever was.

390
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,400
But if you understand the
implications of it, you see

391
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,700
where it falls into this wear
that Sorry, what's your wife

392
00:25:57,700 --> 00:25:58,800
thinking?
This whole time?

393
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,500
She's getting kind of scared,
and I'm really happy about it at

394
00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:11,400
first, she was kind of, okay,
she's like, well, you know, if

395
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:17,200
we had friends who were gay, we
would be kind to them, and we do

396
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,100
stuff with them, and that
wouldn't be, wouldn't, you know,

397
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:21,600
look down on them.
So I guess I can just treat

398
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,800
polygamists the same way, you
know, that was kind of how she

399
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,700
was grappling with it.
But then when she saw me like,

400
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,400
Like becoming friends with Drew
and speaking well of him if she

401
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:39,100
kind of panic a lot and you know
one point she just kind of came

402
00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:45,900
to me and said, if you want to
go do what he's doing, you're

403
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:50,800
going alone.
And this was kind of a process

404
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,500
that was over a few years, like
understanding this.

405
00:26:53,800 --> 00:27:01,100
So we had our second son was
born by this time and she was

406
00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:04,300
just like, yeah, I know.
I'm taking the boys and that's

407
00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:07,100
it.
I'm not, I'm not any of this?

408
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:15,900
And that just really like okay
because I'm having all these

409
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:20,500
spiritual experiences that are
Directing me in the opposite

410
00:27:20,500 --> 00:27:26,800
direction of what she wanted.
And I remember like one Sunday,

411
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:34,800
walking to church and the spirit
just came over me and said, they

412
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:41,000
are going to excommunicate. and
I was like, No, they won't.

413
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:51,500
I'm not gonna lie.
I was just like, you know, have

414
00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:54,600
a rebellious nature.
I haven't overcome entirely and

415
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,500
the spirits telling me that.
And so I've told people before,

416
00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:01,200
the my journey into
fundamentalism was kind of a,

417
00:28:02,100 --> 00:28:06,500
kind of a Jonah type of
experience where I felt the

418
00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:09,400
spiritual confirmation and
that's what I'm talking.

419
00:28:09,500 --> 00:28:12,400
Most of you.
I was like nope I'm not doing it

420
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,700
and you can't make me.
I love the church and I know

421
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:20,900
that every fundamentalist that
I've actually met in real life

422
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,700
has been a really good person
but The other ones, still must

423
00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:31,400
be creepy and bad.
And I just had a run of good

424
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,200
luck and they've all been good,
but the rest are.

425
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,300
All right.
It's still must be the case.

426
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:40,100
That, you know, everyone, I have
met everyone, I keep meeting is

427
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:42,900
really good, but the other ones
must still be bad.

428
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:52,500
And and so I, you know, at that
point I was I was scared.

429
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:54,900
I was like nope knocking It was
my marriage.

430
00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:56,700
I'm not gonna lose my church
membership.

431
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,500
I'm done.
And I kind of stopped talking to

432
00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:08,600
Drew my stops like reading
fundamentalist stuff.

433
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:11,400
I like, nope, I'm just going to
be a regular average.

434
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,900
Dude in the church.
It's all I've ever wanted was to

435
00:29:13,900 --> 00:29:17,300
have a family bunch of kids and
young men's president, do my

436
00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:19,600
thing.
Not be any one of any

437
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,200
importance, just kind of have my
standard LDS life, that's all I

438
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,600
want.
I've been there.

439
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,000
I know what it's like to go
through all that and then try to

440
00:29:28,008 --> 00:29:30,800
put it away and then go back.
Good luck.

441
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,500
Good luck.
Yeah, I was like you can do it

442
00:29:32,508 --> 00:29:35,200
for a while.
You can do it for a while, I

443
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,700
drive you absolutely crazy and
schizophrenic but you can do it

444
00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:41,100
for a while.
Yeah.

445
00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:45,300
Well and that's, you know,
ultimately what happened, like I

446
00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:48,900
kind of came to fundamentalism
on the road that I took to get

447
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:54,000
away from.
And so, you know, we moved out

448
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,400
to the The Midwest to be closer
to her family.

449
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:04,200
And, you know, I really think
that there's a principal and the

450
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:10,700
Book of Mormon kind of teaches
this where you accept new light

451
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:15,800
and knowledge, your expanded and
your light and knowledge in your

452
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,300
capacity.
Engines.

453
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:21,900
But as you reject light and
knowledge, the light and

454
00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:24,700
knowledge that you do have is
taken away from you.

455
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:27,700
Rhyme.
And I really felt that.

456
00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:31,900
So I kind of went through a
period of a lot of spiritual

457
00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:37,600
Darkness because I was just
trying to, like, I want egg

458
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,700
because I've heard, you know,
people on the podcast and I

459
00:30:40,700 --> 00:30:42,800
don't know if it was you or
someone else where they talk

460
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,800
about it and you're like, well,
I can't go to the temple.

461
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,700
That's Adam got everywhere, you
know?

462
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:54,100
Yeah, and you know like because
once you can see it, you can't

463
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:55,100
unsee it.
It.

464
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,600
Yep.
And and it's frustrating because

465
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,900
you're surrounded by people who
don't and then like, well, maybe

466
00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:02,500
I'm just crazy.
They must be right?

467
00:31:02,500 --> 00:31:04,700
It can't be that.
They're all wrong and you know,

468
00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:08,400
you know, like it I get on you
just kind of talk yourself out

469
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,300
of it.
And so that's kind of how things

470
00:31:12,300 --> 00:31:18,000
went for a while and then I
started experiencing a lot of

471
00:31:18,008 --> 00:31:24,600
struggles, and my life.
My my mother passed away kind of

472
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:31,100
on Expectedly and that just like
really rocked my mental and

473
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:36,800
emotional health, I just like
wasn't aired for that.

474
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:43,000
And that and I just kind of like
spiraled where you know, after a

475
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,600
loved one dies, everyone's there
they come for you and then they

476
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,700
all go home.
And I know the regular lives and

477
00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:52,300
they're like Good luck.
Be back to normal.

478
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:55,500
Yeah, you should be normal.
Now why are you normal?

479
00:31:55,500 --> 00:32:00,600
And I'm like, I don't know how
to be and and that, you know,

480
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:06,500
that's just kind of how I went
so you know as time went on like

481
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:13,300
my marriage is really fell apart
and I don't I don't blame my my

482
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:27,100
ex-wife for that at all.
I was I gave her Say that again

483
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:32,000
you kind of cut out all sorry I
just had like as as I went into

484
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,700
this depression from my mother
passing marriage, just fell

485
00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:41,000
apart.
And I don't blame my my ex-wife

486
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:46,300
for that as much as she was
like, You stay away from the

487
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:47,800
polygamist or her, I'll leave
you.

488
00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:52,900
You know, I was just for a long
time, just a really unpleasant

489
00:32:52,900 --> 00:32:57,900
person and so you know that's
just kind of fell apart that

490
00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:02,800
way.
And so I had this like really

491
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:08,600
acrimonious divorce and you know
her father was the stake

492
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,500
president out there.
So yeah.

493
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,100
And I'm the the ironic part was
he was a he was a good guy about

494
00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:21,900
the whole thing.
Like he was like, no, I'm

495
00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:24,300
staying neutral.
I'm not getting involved.

496
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:28,800
It was just kind of like
everyone else in the church in

497
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,300
the area was like well that's
the state president's daughter.

498
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:34,400
He must be like a terrible
horrible person.

499
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:38,700
Right?
And so you know I had like life

500
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:44,200
falls apart.
Marriage lost like Community

501
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:49,600
lost and I was just in this,
like, really terrible place and,

502
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:53,700
you know, and I'm like, okay, I
want to get my spiritual life

503
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:58,400
back into Mordor.
You know, I want to be able to

504
00:33:58,408 --> 00:34:01,900
get myself back in a good place
where I feel like I should be

505
00:34:02,500 --> 00:34:05,600
for my boys and four for the
future and all that.

506
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,100
And I started studying again and
again, you know, I come across

507
00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:15,300
There was a recording fun.
I don't know how I found this

508
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:22,699
the algorithm or whatever, but
the spirit I should say, I came

509
00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:30,100
across a recording of talk that
ruling already gave and and he

510
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:36,300
shares his testimony of Christ
and having having been a witness

511
00:34:36,300 --> 00:34:42,500
of the Savior and I felt the
spirit like come Me really,

512
00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:46,900
really powerfully again.
I said, oh, he's telling the

513
00:34:46,900 --> 00:34:52,400
truth, isn't he?
you know, like, And I'm like, oh

514
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,199
shoot, I see it now.
Like I see.

515
00:34:55,699 --> 00:34:57,900
No, I see where I lost the
spirit, I see where I went

516
00:34:57,900 --> 00:35:04,400
wrong.
And so I I look up Drew again

517
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:09,900
and I start chatting with him
and he had had his own Journey

518
00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:15,800
where he had been on the reality
TV show and he ended up and was

519
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,200
he was in Missouri at the time
where there's a bunch of

520
00:35:20,300 --> 00:35:25,400
fundamentals.
There and I went out to see him

521
00:35:27,300 --> 00:35:33,100
and, you know, I was visiting, I
went to church with him and and

522
00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:37,700
I really felt the spirit like
gonna come over me and say we

523
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:41,200
need to be re-baptized and I was
still fighting it.

524
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,200
Then I was like no I don't want
to do that.

525
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:47,200
Like there has to die and even
after all of that I was still

526
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,500
like there still has to be a way
that I can get back to that just

527
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:51,900
normal.
The S life.

528
00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:58,600
And you know, when I was there
in Missouri, Drew introduced me

529
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,900
to Sean Anderson that you are
shows.

530
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:07,800
Well Greg, I very knowledgeable
the like him, and he started

531
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,900
talking to me, and it was like,
in the morning, I'd like told

532
00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:13,800
drew that as like, I think I
need to be re-baptized and he's

533
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:15,500
like, well, we can do that,
that's great.

534
00:36:15,900 --> 00:36:19,300
And then and he told that to
Sean and Sean came and asked me,

535
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:24,600
and then I like, I just like
panicked and Sean was like,

536
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,400
wanting to talk to me and like
share these experiences with me

537
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,700
and then I just like wanted to
like change the subject because

538
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:37,600
again, I was like still scared
of this whole fundamentalist

539
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,300
world.
And so you know, I really love

540
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,100
Drew and Sean.
They're both very patient with

541
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:53,400
very gently shepherding me and
because I I drilled Drew with

542
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,600
all these questions.
You know, I'd come across an

543
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:02,500
interview with one of rulon
allred's signs, I don't know

544
00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:06,300
whether it was on like, Mormon
stories or one of those other

545
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:11,200
podcasts and, and, you know, and
he kind of came out with a lot

546
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,100
of those same like, oh, there's
all these creeps and pedophiles,

547
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:19,500
and all this stuff, and they're
running rampant.

548
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:25,100
And I was like, Drew, I need to
know like, what is this?

549
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:28,800
Like, an I can't be around.
People like that, you know, and

550
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,300
he's like, well, it's the same
as like, you know, as everyone.

551
00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:36,800
And then that kind of like,
dawned on me, I was like, oh

552
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,700
yeah, like you can get online
and look up, sex offenders.

553
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:46,200
And yet you have a pedophile in
your neighborhood, in your ward

554
00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:47,700
in your ward.
Yeah.

555
00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:50,700
Like they're there, you can look
up where they live and see a

556
00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:53,000
picture of them in the
description of Like what they

557
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,400
were convicted for like they're
everywhere.

558
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,100
It's like, you know, it's a
crying.

559
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:03,300
And so yeah, like that's
happened with fundamentals, it

560
00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:07,300
happens to like fortunately,
there's not really a community

561
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,700
where crimes, like that haven't
happened and so that I like

562
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,600
that, you know, which should
have been obvious, you know?

563
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,000
But I was just like something
that image that I'd had invested

564
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,800
in me for so long.
Have like these are bad guys.

565
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:25,300
Then the light clay down, I was
like, oh no, like that's just

566
00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:30,900
that's a crime that happens, you
know, and it's a human crime,

567
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:35,000
it's not necessarily one that's
unique to fundamentalism, right?

568
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:41,900
It's not and it and it is it's
unfortunate that we find that at

569
00:38:41,900 --> 00:38:47,900
all, my guess, but it isn't
something that is at a higher

570
00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:53,000
rate or is especially unique
amongst fundamentalist but I had

571
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,700
an interview with Christina
Rossetti, and she's a Mormon

572
00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:00,100
historian.
She's not Mormon herself, but

573
00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:03,600
she specializes in Mormon.
I've heard a few interviews with

574
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:04,700
her.
She was great.

575
00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:07,400
Yeah, I had an interview with
her and I asked her point-blank.

576
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,000
I was like, in your opinion as a
scholar.

577
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:17,600
As someone who looks out into
the inside have been, you know,

578
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,900
really granted some really
unique opportunities to be on

579
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:24,800
the inside of fundamentalism.
Mm, from from a scholarly

580
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,200
perspective is fundamental is
Mormon fundamentalism and

581
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,100
inherently dangerous, religion.
And she says, no, she said a lot

582
00:39:32,100 --> 00:39:34,500
of the same problems
fundamentalist faced a lot of

583
00:39:34,508 --> 00:39:39,200
organized, religion faces.
And yeah, I really do think

584
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,600
it's, you know, those sorts of
things are human problems.

585
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,900
You're going to find a shyster
or any any number of

586
00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:50,200
Personality, flaws, within
fundamentalism.

587
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,700
Just like you will in Mormonism
or Or the LDS church or

588
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:58,200
Catholicism or Baptist Church.
Those those are human issues

589
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,200
that span the game, art.
Yeah.

590
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:05,200
Or like public education, right?
Yeah, they have a problem with

591
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,900
offenders.
Yeah.

592
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:10,500
And you know, that's something
that's where I kind of I

593
00:40:10,508 --> 00:40:14,300
mentioned before, where, like
the characterizations that are

594
00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:21,500
in the media about us.
Is the like that's driving that

595
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,200
and all you really need is for
good people to like, let your

596
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,000
light shine.
And so people can see that like

597
00:40:28,100 --> 00:40:32,200
by no means is that standard and
like the entire reason that

598
00:40:32,300 --> 00:40:35,700
everyone knows about that is
because it's unusual.

599
00:40:36,300 --> 00:40:38,900
Like you don't talk about, you
don't spend a lot of time like

600
00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:43,200
drawing attention to the normal
and average, you know, it's not

601
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:47,400
like, you don't know.
Top story at 10 like, happy

602
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,500
family is enjoying their time
with each other and being kind

603
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:54,900
and supportive, you know, like
that doesn't make the news, but

604
00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:58,700
something horrible and crazy.
That does, you know, and that

605
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:04,400
really gives us this distorted
view of things where because we

606
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,500
hear it.
So frequently, we think it must

607
00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:10,500
be happening way more than it
really is.

608
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:16,300
Yeah, absolutely.
So was there ever like the

609
00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:18,400
moment you knew you were
fundamentalist?

610
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,800
Like there's no going back.
This is what I am.

611
00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:24,300
Yeah.
So after that experience that I

612
00:41:24,300 --> 00:41:31,400
had and that was 2019, covid
happens.

613
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,100
And I know that's like a touchy
subject for a lot of people but

614
00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:39,000
I kind of saw like, right from
the outset of this is bogus.

615
00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:45,700
And everything about it is
stupid, but my job got shut

616
00:41:45,700 --> 00:41:48,300
down.
Over it.

617
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:52,900
And so I was just like setting
in my apartment like this is

618
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:57,700
this is awful and but again it
led to like a lot more of

619
00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:03,400
spiritual introspection and
prayer and study.

620
00:42:04,100 --> 00:42:10,000
And there was this moment where
it was just kind of like I was

621
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,900
in the shower you know just like
one of these things that just

622
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:20,200
like hit me and I was like I, I
did the same thing again, you

623
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,800
know, like I have like I'm like
it's a pattern this point, I had

624
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:30,400
a testimony of of these
doctrines way back and I ran

625
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,500
away from it and want to be a
fundamentalist.

626
00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:36,800
And then I was I was visiting
with Drew and Sean and I felt

627
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,700
like I should be re-baptized and
I backed out because I was still

628
00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:45,300
scared me and I was like, I'm
the Lord is clearly directing me

629
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:55,400
in a path and I need to start
falling and as soon as like, I I

630
00:42:56,300 --> 00:43:01,000
said that to myself, it was like
this, like heavy burden just

631
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,500
like fell off of my chest, you
know?

632
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:10,400
And I just felt like might it
was, it was like heavenly father

633
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:15,600
was like, oh, he finally figured
it out like great.

634
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,900
And so, the height of the
pandemic is.

635
00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:28,400
Everything was shutting down.
I drove a few States. a way to

636
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:33,200
go back to Missouri and I was
re-baptized on Easter weekend

637
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:43,100
2020 and You know, it was this
thing where I received the the

638
00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:46,200
spirit is this witness that I
was exactly what the Lord wanted

639
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:52,700
me to do.
And I saw that this stability

640
00:43:53,300 --> 00:43:59,000
came into my life and just
happened to my being as a person

641
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:04,100
and everything that I had
struggled with like my life was

642
00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:09,200
starting to just fall into this
again and It's just this like

643
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,300
constant witnessed they're like,
hey, you know, I know it's

644
00:44:13,300 --> 00:44:18,200
scary, what the Lord wants and
he will bless you and you're

645
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,700
going to have trials and
difficulties and struggles

646
00:44:20,700 --> 00:44:24,400
still, but you can have internal
peace.

647
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,700
And, you know, I would rather
have everything on that outside

648
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:34,900
of me going wrong and be at
peace with the Lord, then to

649
00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:37,800
have everything on the outside
be perfect.

650
00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:42,300
And internally be apart.
As I know I'm not doing well, I

651
00:44:42,308 --> 00:44:48,600
should And once that clicked
into place then I was like all

652
00:44:48,607 --> 00:44:54,300
right, well this is what I want
to do and I received a blessing

653
00:44:54,300 --> 00:45:01,300
after I was baptized where I was
told to ask the Lord to send me

654
00:45:01,300 --> 00:45:05,500
a wife.
And there are few other things

655
00:45:05,500 --> 00:45:08,100
that were said.
It's like and I had also been

656
00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:12,200
kind of a little this is common
for men after they get divorced.

657
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:18,100
I was a little little Bitter and
a little like skittish about

658
00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:20,900
getting married to one woman
again, right?

659
00:45:20,900 --> 00:45:26,800
The prospect of plural, marriage
was something that wasn't even

660
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:32,600
on the horizon, but I did it.
And I, you know, I just I said

661
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:38,400
this like very tentative not
really faithful prayer where I

662
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,900
said, Lord You really want me to
get married.

663
00:45:43,300 --> 00:45:47,600
Supply the woman and I will do
it but I don't know about this

664
00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:55,000
but I will try and it was just
this very like simple prayer and

665
00:45:55,000 --> 00:46:01,900
very shortly after that I met my
wife and we had this like

666
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:09,300
Courtship that lasted all
through the quarantine and she's

667
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:12,300
a Canadian.
So we had trouble like getting

668
00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:19,600
her over the border and some
crazy stuff, but we did and, you

669
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,800
know, we were able to get
married.

670
00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:26,600
Yeah, that was something else.
I also asked so I asked Drew to

671
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,100
officiate in that and so I have
he's very near and dear to my

672
00:46:31,100 --> 00:46:32,600
heart if there is a single
person.

673
00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:34,900
Person that I can.
If there's a single mortal

674
00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:42,600
person, I can credit to that
conversion and so, you know,

675
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,500
that's just kind of how I ended.
And, and now I've seen my life

676
00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:56,200
go from this, like just period
of just Hopeless despair to my

677
00:46:56,500 --> 00:46:59,800
wife just you know, not very
long ago.

678
00:46:59,900 --> 00:47:06,700
Had a baby girl and you know my
joy just keeps growing and

679
00:47:06,700 --> 00:47:10,700
building and I think that's
really what the gospel is about.

680
00:47:10,700 --> 00:47:14,900
It's our true wealth is our
family, you know?

681
00:47:14,900 --> 00:47:21,800
That's that's where our treasure
is and the Lord Blesses us and

682
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:26,600
helps us grow by us taking on
those roles in our family and

683
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,000
not being afraid to who enter
into marriage.

684
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:36,500
And it gone children and
starting to see that shift from

685
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,900
this isn't a burden, these are
blessings.

686
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,400
I'd have this bad experience
before with the marriage going

687
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:48,900
wrong and allowing the Lord, to
soften my heart where I could

688
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:52,400
try again.
And see that he's busted so well

689
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,100
and that's where, you know, I
when I talk to people who were

690
00:47:58,100 --> 00:48:02,000
in the church and they have read
this stuff, I don't pressure

691
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,400
them at all right, you do what
the Lord wants you to do.

692
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,100
And if the Lord wants you to
stay in the church, you stay in

693
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:09,400
the church.
That's fine.

694
00:48:10,100 --> 00:48:14,200
You know, but if the Lord wants
you to be a fundamentalist, you

695
00:48:14,207 --> 00:48:18,000
got to do that.
Because the Lord has a plan for

696
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:19,600
your life.
And if you try to fight that,

697
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,900
that's One thing stove start to
go wrong.

698
00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:25,500
Right.
Yeah, I will say this.

699
00:48:25,500 --> 00:48:31,100
I think there's a there may be a
point of no return at some point

700
00:48:31,100 --> 00:48:33,700
at which you just learned too
much, right?

701
00:48:33,700 --> 00:48:37,000
You you partake of the
proverbial fruit and your eyes

702
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,700
are open and you're like, yeah,
there's not really any going

703
00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:43,600
back.
Having said that I agree with

704
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,000
you, there are people that I
feel like I have a calling

705
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,200
within the church and they need
to fulfill that calling and

706
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,700
maybe that calling is to be one
of the some A few who were left,

707
00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:57,600
who still know about, you know,
the original teachings are or

708
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:02,900
whatever the case is and I don't
have animosity against the LDS

709
00:49:02,900 --> 00:49:04,700
church.
I enjoyed my time there.

710
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:10,000
Yeah.
But yeah, at some point once you

711
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,900
figure some of these things out
it if you don't get a chance to

712
00:49:13,900 --> 00:49:16,800
talk about them with other
people you feel unfulfilled at

713
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,900
some level.
Yeah, yeah.

714
00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:26,700
And that's a That's a danger
with learning is the Lord

715
00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:31,500
doesn't give knowledge without
responsibility and so, yeah, and

716
00:49:31,500 --> 00:49:36,700
you learn a principal it now
falls on you to take action

717
00:49:36,700 --> 00:49:39,500
based on that principle and if
you don't, you're accountable.

718
00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:41,400
Right?
Absolutely.

719
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,700
So, so you're out is a
fundamentalist for now about

720
00:49:45,700 --> 00:49:47,400
three years.
It sounds like right?

721
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:54,200
Yeah, a moment.
So at what point Did you because

722
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,000
I've, like I said, you're the
whole reason I downloaded

723
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,200
Tick-Tock, right?
I was like, I'm not going to

724
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,300
download that crap.
I'm going to stay away from it

725
00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:06,300
and it is it Chinese Communists
and the Chinese Communists and

726
00:50:06,300 --> 00:50:10,400
you know, the whole thing but I
caught one of yours on Facebook

727
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:14,000
and I was like fine.
So I downloaded it and and start

728
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,600
watching and they're great,
there's like 30 some of them I

729
00:50:16,607 --> 00:50:18,200
think that are up there right
now.

730
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,400
Yeah.
And They're great.

731
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:27,100
What made you decide to do that?
What was the Catalyst to be?

732
00:50:27,100 --> 00:50:30,000
Like, let me take my phone and
just spout, my Mormon

733
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,500
fundamentalist beliefs and just
put it out there in The Ether.

734
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,500
yeah, you know for me there were
there were a few things that

735
00:50:40,500 --> 00:50:47,300
we're going on partly you know,
I don't really get to be around

736
00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:51,000
other fundamentalist very
frequently because you know I

737
00:50:51,100 --> 00:50:55,900
share custody with my ex of our
two boys I'm you know we had a

738
00:50:55,900 --> 00:50:59,000
it was a rough divorce but we
have like a really peaceful

739
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,300
respectful co-parenting
relationship now and so I'm

740
00:51:03,300 --> 00:51:05,800
really involved with their
That's really great.

741
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,600
And I'm like, well, I've got to
do my father thing here.

742
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:13,000
So I can't really gather with
other believers in this time.

743
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,700
And I'd, you know, I fell,
that's kind of where I need to

744
00:51:15,700 --> 00:51:19,800
be for now.
And so I felt like, well I want

745
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:25,000
to be contributing like I want
to, you know, just move the work

746
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,900
forward and put more knowledge
out there and I was kind of

747
00:51:28,900 --> 00:51:30,500
struggling.
Well, how do I do this?

748
00:51:30,500 --> 00:51:34,500
And I thought about a podcast I
thought about doing.

749
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,900
Doing exactly what you did,
which is go buy a bunch of

750
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:43,700
equipment and start talking then
and figure it out and I don't

751
00:51:43,700 --> 00:51:45,300
know.
Like, it could just be that I'm

752
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:50,200
lazy and didn't I get it?
I doubt it.

753
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:57,400
And well it I ultimately I think
this is, this is a better thing

754
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:02,100
for me to do, but I came across
Tick-Tock and I was just

755
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:07,300
watching videos and there's a
ton of Ex-mormons who have left

756
00:52:07,300 --> 00:52:10,000
the church and they're saying
all kinds of terrible things and

757
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:14,200
they kind of dominate Tick-Tock.
So if anyone listens to this and

758
00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:15,700
thinks like, oh, I should get on
Tick.

759
00:52:15,700 --> 00:52:20,700
Tock one, I welcome you because
it's me and Moroni Jessup and

760
00:52:20,700 --> 00:52:24,000
we're the only fundamentalist
really that are making content.

761
00:52:25,300 --> 00:52:28,000
In.
But you are going to be coming

762
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,000
into kind of enemy territory a
little bit.

763
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:38,200
And so I'm seeing like all these
Expos that are making all this

764
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:39,700
content.
And then there's a few people in

765
00:52:39,700 --> 00:52:41,800
the church that are trying to
respond.

766
00:52:43,300 --> 00:52:47,900
And then I see maronna on there,
you know, punk rock polygamists

767
00:52:47,900 --> 00:52:51,700
and he's, he's putting out some
good things and I just thought

768
00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:56,700
like, okay, you know what?
As I'm hearing people talk about

769
00:52:56,700 --> 00:53:01,500
some of these things that the
church has changed and I'm like

770
00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:06,400
I could I could explain that
like I know enough that I could

771
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,300
say something about that you
know?

772
00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:13,500
And and it's a fun challenge you
got one minute or three minutes

773
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:20,200
max and you put a thought out
and that's really all you can do

774
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:26,700
is just a snippet But you know I
thought like well I could do

775
00:53:26,700 --> 00:53:29,200
that, that's some type of way I
could contribute that's a way I

776
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:36,500
can help and so I started doing
it, you know, it's a it's great,

777
00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:43,000
I think fundamentalist we were
in this great place where we can

778
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:47,700
kind of understand people who
are in the church and who like

779
00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:50,900
have a testimony of the Gospel
but maybe don't really

780
00:53:50,900 --> 00:53:53,700
understand how things have
changed.

781
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,300
Changed throughout the history
of the church and then we've got

782
00:53:57,300 --> 00:54:01,300
like the the the ex-mormons.
And a lot of times, the only

783
00:54:01,300 --> 00:54:07,900
difference between an ex-mormon
and a fundamentalist is how how

784
00:54:07,900 --> 00:54:11,800
we decided to take in new
information.

785
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:15,000
You know, like it.
If if you have a testimony of

786
00:54:15,008 --> 00:54:18,300
the Book of Mormon and you come
across the Journal of discourses

787
00:54:18,300 --> 00:54:23,900
and you start saying this isn't
what I thought this was If you

788
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,700
say well, I'm holding to my
testimony.

789
00:54:26,700 --> 00:54:29,700
The Book of Mormon is true.
Brigham Young's our profit.

790
00:54:30,300 --> 00:54:35,100
I need to understand what's
going on here or you say.

791
00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:38,900
Bookworm can't be true.
They changed things.

792
00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:40,600
That's different.
And then you become an expert

793
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,100
on.
Those are kind of your paths

794
00:54:43,100 --> 00:54:47,300
when you get a certain.
I think I think context has a

795
00:54:47,300 --> 00:54:50,900
lot to do with that to write so
often.

796
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:54,100
And it's real crafty trick,
they'll take something that

797
00:54:54,100 --> 00:54:58,500
Joseph or Brigham or John Taylor
said and they'll just take

798
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,900
enough, right?
They won't edit it.

799
00:55:00,900 --> 00:55:04,800
They won't alter it, but they'll
just take the one snippet and

800
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,600
then forget the Rest of the
sermon.

801
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:12,000
And so you may have this very
incendiary, you know, excerpt

802
00:55:12,100 --> 00:55:15,300
but you don't get the full
context and not getting that

803
00:55:15,300 --> 00:55:19,900
full context.
If you're a normal 20th century

804
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:23,600
Mormon, it's going to seem
really foreign and wrong in a

805
00:55:23,607 --> 00:55:25,900
lot of ways until you receive
that context.

806
00:55:25,900 --> 00:55:30,000
I think context has a lot to do
with where someone goes and

807
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,900
sometimes that knee jerk
reaction isn't always the right

808
00:55:33,900 --> 00:55:37,100
one.
Yeah, and and that's something

809
00:55:37,100 --> 00:55:40,800
else like I hope to.
I hope I have done, I hope to be

810
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:45,200
able to do more of is I kind of
want to say that people in the

811
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:49,600
church who are getting hit with
some of these things.

812
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,000
Like oh like they change the
temple ordinances, they change

813
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:58,400
the doctrine, they change this
in this in this and a lot of

814
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,100
them are going to lose their
faith and say oh well I guess

815
00:56:02,100 --> 00:56:04,200
this isn't true anymore.
No.

816
00:56:04,300 --> 00:56:06,200
Because the Christian whole to
its guns.

817
00:56:07,700 --> 00:56:10,500
They if it was true they would
have kept going.

818
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,300
And that's kind of the thought.
And I want to be able to say hey

819
00:56:13,300 --> 00:56:17,500
no, like, that's not the only
option you can hold on to your

820
00:56:17,500 --> 00:56:20,400
faith still.
You might have a harder road to

821
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:26,100
go but you don't have to abandon
hope and you know, go along and

822
00:56:26,300 --> 00:56:30,200
become a an atheist, you know,
one of the things I wasn't

823
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,500
prepared for when I fired this
podcast up.

824
00:56:32,500 --> 00:56:36,300
So I figured it would reach You
know, the 30, some people, you

825
00:56:36,300 --> 00:56:42,200
know, whatever was the amount of
LDS people that folks, I end up

826
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:47,200
getting as listeners who, you
know, will email me about, you

827
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:48,900
know, where did you find this or
whatever?

828
00:56:48,900 --> 00:56:51,100
And I remember, I've received a
couple of these.

829
00:56:51,100 --> 00:56:56,500
Now, a few of these, where I'll
get an email that says, you

830
00:56:56,500 --> 00:57:00,200
know, hey, thanks for explaining
such and such or having this

831
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,300
guest on to explain such and
such a thing because it kind of

832
00:57:03,700 --> 00:57:06,600
puts them.
Some some of my fears to rest or

833
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,900
whatever and I can continue on
now going to the LDS church, and

834
00:57:10,900 --> 00:57:13,200
I think that's great.
I think that's great.

835
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,700
I I didn't foresee that as an
outcome but that's great.

836
00:57:16,700 --> 00:57:19,700
If that's what saves.
Somebody's testimony on the

837
00:57:19,700 --> 00:57:21,100
restoration.
Perfect.

838
00:57:21,100 --> 00:57:24,700
I'm good with that.
I saw it a lot when I had been

839
00:57:24,700 --> 00:57:30,800
Schaefer on.
We kind of dove into the movie.

840
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,200
Why am I drawing to be banned
under the banner of Heaven?

841
00:57:34,700 --> 00:57:37,800
That was a big one because
there's a lot of, I mean, they

842
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,500
did a good job.
I thought in terms of, you know,

843
00:57:40,500 --> 00:57:44,600
showing the gamut of
fundamentalist expression, but

844
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,000
they weren't real good about
really diving in, right?

845
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:49,700
And they really couldn't because
they're on a time crunch.

846
00:57:49,700 --> 00:57:53,600
They got so many episodes, but
when people get just little

847
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:58,100
Snippets like that, It it's
disconcerting, right?

848
00:57:58,100 --> 00:58:02,100
And so to have folks out there
explaining, hey, this is what

849
00:58:02,100 --> 00:58:05,400
this is, this is the context,
this is what it looked like and

850
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:07,200
this was how it was kind of
practiced.

851
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:10,700
I think that goes a long ways in
alleviating some of those

852
00:58:10,700 --> 00:58:14,900
concerns.
Yeah, yeah, I think it really

853
00:58:14,900 --> 00:58:17,600
does.
I mean, there's stuff like, you

854
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:22,100
know, like blood atonement.
Is he a big one?

855
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:24,400
You know.
Actually I don't think I've done

856
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,100
a video on.
I should do a Tick-Tock on that

857
00:58:27,100 --> 00:58:31,900
because that's something that
Spooks people a lot and my view

858
00:58:31,900 --> 00:58:37,400
of blood atonement.
It's simply the idea that the, I

859
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,100
believe that the blood atonement
just means that the death

860
00:58:40,100 --> 00:58:44,800
penalty has spiritual benefits
to those who deserve it.

861
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:48,000
Yeah.
And when you break it down into

862
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:54,700
its practice, I mean, with the
exception of a few cases to

863
00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:58,100
that, I can think of where I'd
be willing to say that's

864
00:58:58,100 --> 00:59:01,700
rock-solid evidence.
With the exception of two cases,

865
00:59:01,700 --> 00:59:04,600
where you can definitely make
the connection where someone was

866
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:10,900
kind of Acting under the wrong
spirit so to speak.

867
00:59:11,300 --> 00:59:15,400
Yeah, I enlarged, blood
atonement was nothing more than

868
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:20,500
capital punishment, within a
theocracy period Point Blank,

869
00:59:20,500 --> 00:59:23,000
that's what it was.
It wasn't.

870
00:59:23,500 --> 00:59:26,400
It wasn't as Extreme as what
they do in Saudi Arabia where

871
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,300
they're like, hey, we're going
to cut your hand off for

872
00:59:28,300 --> 00:59:32,400
stealing or anything like that.
It was simply reserved for the

873
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,800
worst of the worst crimes
things.

874
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,500
That would be prosecuted in some
States today.

875
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,100
With the death penalty, that's
what it was.

876
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:44,800
It was the death penalty under a
theocracy, it didn't apply to

877
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:46,700
things.
Like, apostasy it didn't apply

878
00:59:46,700 --> 00:59:51,500
to things even like adultery.
I mean, it was really reserved

879
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:55,100
for murder now.
Well, and there's that famous

880
00:59:55,100 --> 01:00:01,000
talk that people like to quote
where Brigham Young talks about

881
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:05,100
like, oh, I wouldn't hesitate to
run a javelin through an

882
01:00:05,100 --> 01:00:09,300
adulterous wife and and People
like, oh, he's talking about

883
01:00:09,300 --> 01:00:10,600
murder.
Well, he's quoting the Old

884
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:16,700
Testament, right Vincent.
And he goes on in that talk to

885
01:00:16,700 --> 01:00:22,700
say, that standard doesn't apply
in our day, because how do I

886
01:00:22,700 --> 01:00:26,900
know that those adulterers?
Truly understood their covenants

887
01:00:27,300 --> 01:00:29,600
and truly understood what they
were doing?

888
01:00:30,900 --> 01:00:32,800
I don't think that they really
did.

889
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,600
So, this doesn't really apply,
but I do think that there's

890
01:00:38,100 --> 01:00:43,000
Understanding that the more
Society progresses to become

891
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:50,500
like the city of Enoch, where
you have Perfect People, The

892
01:00:50,500 --> 01:00:53,900
more serious transmission.
Yep.

893
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:59,500
Like we can't have two cultures
and old the city of Enoch that

894
01:00:59,500 --> 01:01:05,600
can't happen, but that city has
to be a group where, I mean, to

895
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:10,400
a man into a woman, everyone.
Truly understands God's law and

896
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:16,200
they're truly living it and we
don't have that here.

897
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:21,400
We might have a handful of
people who are on that spiritual

898
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:25,500
level.
I'm not and we might have a few

899
01:01:25,500 --> 01:01:32,300
people over truly there.
But we you need a city of people

900
01:01:32,300 --> 01:01:36,100
who are at right?
And that's when it's like if

901
01:01:36,100 --> 01:01:38,900
that person transgression
Transgresses having a full

902
01:01:38,900 --> 01:01:41,300
knowledge.
Well, that's a much bigger deal.

903
01:01:41,300 --> 01:01:45,400
We, and, yeah, I think we go, we
start diving into to, you know,

904
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:49,600
when does it stop becoming faith
and start becoming knowledge.

905
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,300
Sort of a thing before before
you get there.

906
01:01:52,300 --> 01:01:55,300
So, yeah, no, I agree with you,
100%.

907
01:01:55,300 --> 01:01:58,200
So you remember the first Tick
Tock you put out, was there,

908
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:01,700
hesitancy?
What were you thinking a little

909
01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:03,300
bit?
Because I think, when I first

910
01:02:03,300 --> 01:02:06,200
got on there I was like, mostly
like trolling people and

911
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:10,000
comments sections.
I'm not afraid to admit that I'm

912
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:19,900
not above that, but there was
this like anti Creator who he

913
01:02:19,900 --> 01:02:24,300
went off about how like one of
the ways, you know that the

914
01:02:24,300 --> 01:02:30,000
church is a called is because
they have all this money and

915
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,900
instead of paying for janitors,
they ask for people to help

916
01:02:34,300 --> 01:02:40,900
volunteer with cleaning.
And I was like of all the like

917
01:02:40,900 --> 01:02:44,200
that was just like vo hanging
fruit and I was like of all the

918
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:48,400
like signs of a cult like asking
for volunteers to clean, you

919
01:02:48,408 --> 01:02:53,900
know, like my kids little league
requires you to volunteer for

920
01:02:53,900 --> 01:02:57,700
cleanup, you know?
Like that's like this is not

921
01:02:57,900 --> 01:03:00,200
what makes a cult.
Yeah.

922
01:03:01,700 --> 01:03:06,300
So I just got on there and I
made fun of them and there was

923
01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:09,000
like a little Hesitancy.
But I was like, well, you know,

924
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:13,800
this, let's just dry dive in and
do it, and that like a lot of

925
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,600
the regular members of the
church really like that because

926
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:24,400
that guy is Pretty obnoxious,
but then, as I kind of like that

927
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:27,700
I've been and people are asking
me questions and I know I'm a

928
01:03:27,700 --> 01:03:32,800
fundamentalist and, you know, my
I'm the 1889, Mormon on their

929
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:41,400
1889, Mormon of them.
So it just became this really

930
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:43,900
interesting thing where now I'm
you're getting lots of questions

931
01:03:45,100 --> 01:03:50,900
and I can go back and forth
between Dean ex-mormons who are

932
01:03:50,900 --> 01:03:53,300
like hostile at church.
I can kind of be like, well

933
01:03:53,300 --> 01:03:56,000
actually you've got a good
point, you know, like the church

934
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:59,100
did change that and here's what
was originally thought, you

935
01:03:59,100 --> 01:04:00,400
know.
And you write you.

936
01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:05,700
So, you know, you get people who
like and dislike you on both

937
01:04:05,700 --> 01:04:11,000
sides.
And yeah, well with that So

938
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,100
today 8 in and maybe this is
information, you don't have,

939
01:04:14,100 --> 01:04:15,800
what do you think you're most
viewed?

940
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:22,300
Tick-Tock was It's true.
I can check.

941
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:29,100
I think it was a bunch of
feminist got mad at me, because

942
01:04:29,100 --> 01:04:37,000
I made a the because someone was
saying like in Mormonism, the

943
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:42,100
only purpose of a woman is to
make babies, I got on there and

944
01:04:42,100 --> 01:04:45,200
I was like, oh like that's all
purpose, right?

945
01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:47,900
Like that's all response.
Not like, It's not like, if your

946
01:04:47,900 --> 01:04:51,800
wife doesn't have a baby, you're
just like, you know, you're no

947
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:52,700
good to me.
Get out of here.

948
01:04:52,700 --> 01:04:58,100
Like, that's right.
And so they.

949
01:04:58,300 --> 01:05:02,500
So I got on there and I was just
like, yeah, you know, women like

950
01:05:02,500 --> 01:05:10,600
making babies, like that's not
like, like they do, like sure

951
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:15,100
some don't, but, you know,
pretty much they do and they all

952
01:05:15,100 --> 01:05:21,300
got real mad about that one.
And I had to just walk a bunch

953
01:05:21,300 --> 01:05:27,500
of people because they were just
uh, uh, that's really and, you

954
01:05:27,500 --> 01:05:29,100
know, they'd like, well, I hate
you.

955
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:31,300
I don't want to have kids Rio,
this.

956
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:34,200
I had this terrible experience
in childbirth in it.

957
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,600
Scarred me from having children
is just like on and on and on

958
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:43,600
and I was like, okay well like
there wouldn't be so many people

959
01:05:43,900 --> 01:05:48,600
if women did not like babies and
weren't Willing to have like we

960
01:05:48,600 --> 01:05:53,100
just there wouldn't be so many
of us like this isn't about like

961
01:05:53,100 --> 01:05:55,300
something, so I don't really get
into it.

962
01:05:55,300 --> 01:05:59,500
Kind of like deep deep doctrines
because like really simple

963
01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:03,700
things can be hard for people.
Oh yeah.

964
01:06:03,700 --> 01:06:06,900
And so, there was that.
And then there was another one

965
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:10,400
that sometimes random ones, like
the algorithm on Tick, Tock,

966
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,000
just like kicks it off.
You'll get a bunch of use and

967
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,100
you can never tell why the other
one was just random one way

968
01:06:16,100 --> 01:06:22,700
around.
Somebody tried to pull and say

969
01:06:22,700 --> 01:06:27,300
like if you if you follow Jesus
you should be a socialist, is

970
01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:32,800
Jesus wasn't hahahaha response
for that.

971
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:36,200
I remember that part of The
Sermon on the Mount where Jesus

972
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:40,800
said, don't give it to the poor,
give it to a big government for

973
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:43,500
them to redistribute.
I totally remember that part.

974
01:06:43,500 --> 01:06:45,500
I was there, right?
Right.

975
01:06:45,500 --> 01:06:47,100
Yeah.
Like they're getting a lot of

976
01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:51,300
Mileage out of Render unto
Caesar that which is Caesars.

977
01:06:51,300 --> 01:06:53,500
You know, they they really are
yeah.

978
01:06:53,900 --> 01:06:56,800
Wait, wait a so it's not the
only thing he said, when a

979
01:06:56,808 --> 01:07:00,200
socialist tries to make make
that argument that, you know,

980
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:03,700
and you're seeing it creeped out
of BYU more and more now where

981
01:07:03,700 --> 01:07:07,000
it's like, oh yeah, you know,
really the law of Consecration

982
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:11,000
and United order that's just
socialism with a religious bent

983
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:14,300
and I'm like, slow your roll.
It's nothing of the sort.

984
01:07:17,100 --> 01:07:22,400
And to be fair to them a lot of
times, and I'm not an expert on

985
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:27,700
this area, but a lot of times,
it kind of was in practice.

986
01:07:27,700 --> 01:07:31,200
I don't think that drives with
like, what the Doctrine and

987
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:37,000
Covenants, says it should be.
But there were kind of a lot of

988
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:42,000
the attempts that United order.
I think probably did have a

989
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,100
little too much control and not
enough.

990
01:07:45,500 --> 01:07:48,600
Read em and how they went about
since I agree with you, but you

991
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:52,700
could see different flavors of
it being attempted, especially

992
01:07:52,700 --> 01:07:55,800
in the Utah period, right?
I mean, yeah, if I'm not

993
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:00,000
mistaken, Brigham City, was
started off as a United order,

994
01:08:00,100 --> 01:08:05,000
and did really well, and
maintained maximum freedom.

995
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,800
And, and, and whatever, within
that system, and did very well

996
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,300
at it, there were other places,
it didn't do that.

997
01:08:11,300 --> 01:08:16,300
And I think, I think that comes
from probably folks not having a

998
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,500
real good understanding of what
the Doctrine and Covenants.

999
01:08:19,500 --> 01:08:23,300
A can says concerning you know
the law of consecration United

1000
01:08:23,300 --> 01:08:26,899
order but yeah, no there, there
definitely were experiments

1001
01:08:26,899 --> 01:08:31,399
where it was way, top down and
those failed quickly.

1002
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:34,600
Yeah, yeah.
And that's something I would

1003
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:39,800
like to do a deep dive into and
get a little bit more.

1004
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:42,600
Maybe you can find somebody who
knows all about that.

1005
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:49,600
Sounds like I already have?
Yeah, well, I haven't.

1006
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:54,300
Yeah, I need to but because I
know I mean all I know about it

1007
01:08:54,300 --> 01:08:59,500
is like or durval and the story
that I heard when I was a kid

1008
01:08:59,500 --> 01:09:04,100
and the church was that the
whole thing fell apart because a

1009
01:09:04,100 --> 01:09:09,200
bunch of the boys wanted, like,
the new fashionable pants that

1010
01:09:09,200 --> 01:09:13,500
were being sold and they didn't
like the pants that the Knighted

1011
01:09:13,500 --> 01:09:17,899
order was making for them.
And, and that like, was the

1012
01:09:17,899 --> 01:09:22,000
Domino that like, brought the
whole thing to a collapse and

1013
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,500
now that I'm an adult, and I'm
looking back on that.

1014
01:09:24,500 --> 01:09:27,300
Like, I don't think that was the
full story.

1015
01:09:27,700 --> 01:09:28,500
No.
No.

1016
01:09:28,500 --> 01:09:30,200
That was not.
You were correct.

1017
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:38,500
That's awesome.
So, it sounds like you've got as

1018
01:09:38,500 --> 01:09:41,300
many haters as you do people who
are loving what you're doing,

1019
01:09:41,300 --> 01:09:42,600
right?
Yeah.

1020
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:45,200
And there's Because that's been
my experience, right?

1021
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:49,899
I have equal parts.
Dave, you're a dirtbag and equal

1022
01:09:49,899 --> 01:09:51,800
parts.
Dave thanks for doing that

1023
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:53,000
right?
I mean there?

1024
01:09:53,399 --> 01:09:57,300
Yeah yeah well and there's
there's it's kind of interesting

1025
01:09:57,300 --> 01:10:02,900
like who isn't hater because
they're they're a lot of like

1026
01:10:03,000 --> 01:10:08,300
expose that are the like the
content that I that I put out.

1027
01:10:09,100 --> 01:10:12,700
There's one he's on there as
black smell.

1028
01:10:13,100 --> 01:10:17,000
Same Spencer, but he's the black
ex-mormon.

1029
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:22,800
And his kind of the whole point
of his content is the church is

1030
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:26,600
racist, and the church was Ray
said, and like, that's his like,

1031
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:28,900
whole thing.
And I get on there, and I'm

1032
01:10:28,900 --> 01:10:32,800
like, yeah, pretty sure they
shouldn't have gotten rid of

1033
01:10:32,808 --> 01:10:34,900
the, the priesthood van.
I think that probably should

1034
01:10:34,900 --> 01:10:38,500
have stayed in place.
And he and I are kind of Pals,

1035
01:10:40,300 --> 01:10:46,100
which is because, I think for
him, it's just like, oh, he's

1036
01:10:46,100 --> 01:10:51,100
honest like I'm not trying to
like lie and tell me what he

1037
01:10:51,100 --> 01:10:55,400
thinks, I want to hear, he's
telling me what he thinks, you

1038
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:59,100
know, and I think that just that
alone can be so refreshing for

1039
01:10:59,100 --> 01:11:04,200
some that even if they hate what
you're saying, they're just glad

1040
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,200
that you're not being a coward
about it.

1041
01:11:07,500 --> 01:11:09,400
Yeah.
And and to be honest I think

1042
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:12,600
we're in a time now where people
don't want you to have those

1043
01:11:12,600 --> 01:11:16,600
kind of conversations, right?
They just want to slap a label

1044
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:19,300
on somebody and be like, Okay.
There were done, we don't have

1045
01:11:19,300 --> 01:11:21,700
to listen to them anymore,
because if you have a

1046
01:11:21,700 --> 01:11:26,900
conversation, if you have a
heart to heart.

1047
01:11:26,900 --> 01:11:30,700
So to speak, all of a sudden,
we're not so different from

1048
01:11:30,700 --> 01:11:34,800
everybody else.
And if the guy I disagree with

1049
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:36,800
is more like me than what I
thought.

1050
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:40,400
Well now, all of a sudden we
don't have to be so separated,

1051
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:42,000
we can be like yeah, I just
agree with you.

1052
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:45,100
I think you're wrong.
But I respect your opinion,

1053
01:11:45,100 --> 01:11:46,800
right.
At least, I can at least say

1054
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:49,400
that you, you know, try to
understand.

1055
01:11:50,100 --> 01:11:53,300
And I think that makes the, the
folks, whether it's the media,

1056
01:11:53,300 --> 01:11:55,800
or politicians, whatever.
I think that makes them very

1057
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,700
nervous II.
Don't, I don't think they like

1058
01:11:58,700 --> 01:12:00,500
that a lot.
And so, any time we have a

1059
01:12:00,508 --> 01:12:04,100
conversation like we're doing
here or when you put your stuff

1060
01:12:04,100 --> 01:12:08,600
out on Tick-Tock, I think that's
almost a shot across the bow to

1061
01:12:08,900 --> 01:12:11,500
a lot of the powers-that-be
right now of.

1062
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:15,500
Yeah, we gotta shut this.
Down because if people all the

1063
01:12:15,500 --> 01:12:19,100
sudden come to this idea that
that the ones we've labeled

1064
01:12:19,100 --> 01:12:22,000
crazy maybe aren't so crazy and
they're just people too.

1065
01:12:22,700 --> 01:12:26,200
That leaves a lot of room for
understanding and maybe it's not

1066
01:12:26,300 --> 01:12:29,900
in the power structures.
Best interest in that they can't

1067
01:12:29,900 --> 01:12:35,700
keep us separated anymore.
Yeah I really I really resonate

1068
01:12:35,700 --> 01:12:40,900
with a lot of that because it's
that was like one of the like

1069
01:12:40,900 --> 01:12:45,800
Pleasant things that's come out
of Being on Tick Tock is being

1070
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,500
able to have, like, friendly
conversations with people.

1071
01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:52,500
That like I'm not, they don't
agree with me and that's not why

1072
01:12:52,500 --> 01:12:55,000
we're talking.
It's because it's like, oh,

1073
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:57,400
here's someone who's actually
coming forward and saying what

1074
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:01,900
they think and, and, you know,
with with Spencer, with the the

1075
01:13:01,900 --> 01:13:07,900
black ex-mormon he he and I were
able to kind of connect, like,

1076
01:13:08,300 --> 01:13:12,600
we both went through a divorce.
We we both have two sons that

1077
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:15,700
are like, Pretty close and too
similar ages.

1078
01:13:16,500 --> 01:13:19,100
And so we were able to kind of
connect on to sort of a human

1079
01:13:19,100 --> 01:13:26,200
level of having some similar
experiences and the that's a

1080
01:13:26,900 --> 01:13:29,300
that's a I think that's a
beautiful thing whenever you can

1081
01:13:29,300 --> 01:13:32,800
see that.
So yeah, if there's anyone who

1082
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:34,600
is listening to this and
thinking that they want to get

1083
01:13:34,600 --> 01:13:38,600
on sick, dog likes, hop in, you
know there's there's plenty of

1084
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:39,900
room.
Yeah.

1085
01:13:39,900 --> 01:13:42,400
Yeah.
And I've said that to I'm like

1086
01:13:43,700 --> 01:13:48,300
We're a big enough community
that one or two voices isn't

1087
01:13:48,300 --> 01:13:51,300
going to be enough, right?
We need to have a lot of

1088
01:13:51,300 --> 01:13:56,300
different perspectives because
certainly I can be wrong a lot.

1089
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,000
In fact, one of my first
episodes was me just introducing

1090
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,700
myself saying, I'm going to say
things are going to piss you off

1091
01:14:01,700 --> 01:14:03,500
at some point.
Just kind of count on that,

1092
01:14:03,500 --> 01:14:06,800
right?
And when I'm wrong I'm willing

1093
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:11,200
to say I'm wrong, right?
And and yeah, just just being

1094
01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:14,100
able to admit, you know, you
Yeah, we're going to have our

1095
01:14:14,100 --> 01:14:16,400
differences but that doesn't
mean we have to hate each other

1096
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:18,600
either.
Yeah well it's kind of like I

1097
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,200
might be wrong but I'm not
lying, right?

1098
01:14:21,900 --> 01:14:24,200
Like this is what I think this
is why I think it.

1099
01:14:24,300 --> 01:14:30,300
Here's how I got to where I'm at
and and I think you can do that

1100
01:14:30,300 --> 01:14:33,800
with anyone and anyone who's
willing to do that, like you can

1101
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:38,200
have a productive conversation.
Yeah, and the more people that

1102
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:41,100
are out there talking, I think
it's just better all the way

1103
01:14:41,100 --> 01:14:47,800
around because again, I mean,
more Mormon fundamentalists are

1104
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,200
just as unique as anybody else,
right?

1105
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:55,200
I mean to try to, to homogenize,
any group of people is a

1106
01:14:55,208 --> 01:15:00,600
disservice to individuals and
yeah, more voices.

1107
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,600
The better.
What what are some of the the

1108
01:15:03,900 --> 01:15:08,200
best responses you?
Got like, like, what's something

1109
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:11,600
that you weren't prepared for as
far as someone saying thanks for

1110
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:16,500
doing this?
Well, I kind of mentioned

1111
01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:19,100
already though, the most like,
unexpected one.

1112
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:26,600
You know, I think that there's
been there was one kid at

1113
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:28,900
BYU-Idaho I shouldn't call me
kid.

1114
01:15:28,900 --> 01:15:32,700
He's a grown man, you know, but
I just think because he's in his

1115
01:15:32,700 --> 01:15:39,700
early 20s that BYU-Idaho and He
saw my Tic tocs and he said, oh

1116
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:43,200
well, I'm starting a podcast and
you seem interesting like and I

1117
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:48,800
interview you and I like sure
and I had like had, you know,

1118
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:51,000
just a handful of videos on
there.

1119
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:56,300
Like I, you know, and he was
just starting this like this was

1120
01:15:56,300 --> 01:15:58,500
just kind of a project for him.
He's like, well, I'm going to

1121
01:15:58,500 --> 01:16:01,300
start this this podcast and so I
was one of the first people that

1122
01:16:01,300 --> 01:16:06,200
I interviewed on there.
And for me, like, I just like

1123
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:10,400
that, because That just felt
like the connection to sort of

1124
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:15,000
like a younger version of myself
like triangles speaking.

1125
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:20,400
Back in time to to someone else
who was in a similar situation

1126
01:16:20,400 --> 01:16:23,100
and he's like you know, asking
me all these questions and

1127
01:16:23,300 --> 01:16:26,000
because it is kind of exciting
when you're like oh wait like

1128
01:16:26,900 --> 01:16:31,200
fundamentalist one, they've got
a much stronger case than we

1129
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:34,400
ever thought they did.
They've got a good, they're

1130
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,400
raising some good points at
least.

1131
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:42,800
And they aren't scary, weird
creepy people right?

1132
01:16:45,500 --> 01:16:48,400
So that was, yeah, I really like
that.

1133
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:53,900
But I had a lot of responses
kind of across the board from

1134
01:16:53,900 --> 01:17:02,500
from good people who were.
Yeah, I I feel like we're having

1135
01:17:02,500 --> 01:17:05,500
a fundamentalist moment right
now in society.

1136
01:17:05,500 --> 01:17:09,000
I really do with I started the
podcast.

1137
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:13,100
I got through three or four
episodes before under the banner

1138
01:17:13,100 --> 01:17:16,200
of Heaven came out and I
thought, oh crap, we wipe right.

1139
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:20,700
I can't not address this, right?
And then you had keep sweet,

1140
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:23,900
whatever it was the Netflix
one-on-one the way.

1141
01:17:24,500 --> 01:17:27,600
Yep.
And then then the Mormon, no

1142
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:31,900
more one that came out.
And so right?

1143
01:17:31,900 --> 01:17:36,000
As I fired this up, I had All of
this coming, right?

1144
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:40,000
And I think, I think it's one of
those times where you look at

1145
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:42,600
your, like, this is kind of a
fundamentalist moment here.

1146
01:17:43,000 --> 01:17:47,700
And if we're not out there
talking well, we've seeded

1147
01:17:47,700 --> 01:17:51,000
ground, right?
We've just, we've just regressed

1148
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:55,100
where we're not, we're not
engaging and we're allowing

1149
01:17:55,100 --> 01:17:58,500
others to frame who we are and
what we believe.

1150
01:17:58,900 --> 01:18:00,700
And there's a real danger in
that, right?

1151
01:18:00,700 --> 01:18:05,200
I mean, you you then become the
other and in doing Doing that.

1152
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:11,000
It's a lot easier to make people
into monsters or any any such

1153
01:18:11,000 --> 01:18:14,900
thing as that.
Yeah, you know and what that

1154
01:18:14,900 --> 01:18:20,500
brings to mind is whenever I
talk to my boys because they're,

1155
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:25,300
they're eight and six years old
and so when I talk to them about

1156
01:18:25,300 --> 01:18:29,200
like bullies standing up for
yourself and standing your

1157
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:32,300
ground, there's this little clip
on YouTube.

1158
01:18:32,500 --> 01:18:38,200
I found of A hiker, who comes
across a mountain?

1159
01:18:39,900 --> 01:18:43,900
And it's, he's recording this
interaction where he stands his

1160
01:18:43,900 --> 01:18:47,000
ground against this Mount, and
he just stands there.

1161
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:49,900
He just starts shouting us his
chest up and he's like, you get

1162
01:18:49,900 --> 01:18:56,500
away from me, he starts yelling
at this cougar and and the

1163
01:18:56,500 --> 01:19:00,100
mountain lion, just like stops.
And his kind of confused because

1164
01:19:00,100 --> 01:19:04,900
the like a second ago, this was
pray and I could destroy it.

1165
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:09,900
And now it's not scared of you
now, I don't Know what to do.

1166
01:19:10,100 --> 01:19:13,200
And he just keeps like he
doesn't move towards the the

1167
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:15,300
mountain lion.
He doesn't like threatened it

1168
01:19:15,700 --> 01:19:19,000
but he stands his ground and
started shouting and then

1169
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:22,900
eventually the cat just gets
kind of confused and things

1170
01:19:22,900 --> 01:19:26,800
like, well, I'm gonna go find my
meal somewhere else and, you

1171
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:32,500
know, runs off and I think that
applies to us because there's

1172
01:19:32,500 --> 01:19:35,400
been so much fear with
fundamentalists.

1173
01:19:35,700 --> 01:19:39,800
We've got like, You know, the
Arizona raised that happened

1174
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:46,700
like 50s or in and we're, we've
had so much persecution where we

1175
01:19:46,700 --> 01:19:51,300
have the sphere.
And we think I need to hide, I

1176
01:19:51,300 --> 01:19:54,400
need to stay away.
I need to keep everyone safe.

1177
01:19:54,400 --> 01:20:01,900
And we have that mentality that
we want to shrink and hide

1178
01:20:01,900 --> 01:20:04,700
ourselves, just lay low.
Keep your head low.

1179
01:20:05,100 --> 01:20:07,700
Yeah, and I kind of get it.
Right.

1180
01:20:07,700 --> 01:20:10,400
Because those are societal
scars, right?

1181
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:15,500
As I talked to, some of the old
timers in fundamentalism, those

1182
01:20:15,500 --> 01:20:19,000
scars are still very real.
These are, these are guys who

1183
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:23,300
either have been taken, right?
I know of one guy in particular

1184
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:28,300
who was a child taken out of
short Creek, right?

1185
01:20:28,300 --> 01:20:30,900
And he talks about the
separation in the Heartbreak.

1186
01:20:31,200 --> 01:20:35,300
So I don't want to make light of
folks who have lived through

1187
01:20:35,300 --> 01:20:39,000
that because those is do bear,
societal scars.

1188
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:43,700
However guys like you and I were
from a different generation and

1189
01:20:43,700 --> 01:20:47,200
different time, right?
Where we don't have those scars

1190
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:53,600
and I think I feel it in my gut
deep that we're in this

1191
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:56,500
fundamentalist moment and we
have got to open our mouths.

1192
01:20:56,500 --> 01:21:02,700
And the thing is like when
you're being portrayed as this

1193
01:21:02,700 --> 01:21:07,700
like terrible person, there's
this in the mindset of That

1194
01:21:07,700 --> 01:21:12,400
predator of a mountain lion.
If you try to run away You're

1195
01:21:12,400 --> 01:21:16,000
confirming that you really are
prey and I should be chasing.

1196
01:21:16,700 --> 01:21:19,700
And so if people are saying oh
fundamentalist or all

1197
01:21:19,700 --> 01:21:23,600
pedophiles, they're all creepy
cult leader.

1198
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:25,200
They're doing all these terrible
things.

1199
01:21:25,200 --> 01:21:30,600
They're all they mistreat their
wives, they abused their kids

1200
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:35,700
like all these terrible things
if you run and hide in their

1201
01:21:35,700 --> 01:21:37,600
mind they think.
Ink.

1202
01:21:38,700 --> 01:21:42,100
It must be true if they're
running away in there, hiding.

1203
01:21:43,100 --> 01:21:46,100
I guess all those things I said
about them, because they, why

1204
01:21:46,100 --> 01:21:48,000
would you run away?
If, you know, if you're feeling

1205
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:51,000
guilty, it must be that.
That's not true, you know?

1206
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:56,600
It's just like, you know, look
good, people have had terrible

1207
01:21:56,600 --> 01:22:04,900
things happen to them for truth
sake and Christ told us and The

1208
01:22:04,907 --> 01:22:06,900
Sermon on the Mount.
He said that that would happen,

1209
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:12,200
but he said that We would be
blessed when men speak evil of

1210
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:16,500
us and revile against us.
But it's if they speak evil of

1211
01:22:16,500 --> 01:22:20,400
you falsely, those are the evil
has to be false.

1212
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:24,200
If the evil they speak about,
you is true, you're not blessed.

1213
01:22:25,900 --> 01:22:30,600
But if you're hearing false,
things said about you, you have

1214
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:33,000
to stand your ground.
You have to stand up and say

1215
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:37,800
that's not true, and you need to
kind of put yourself out there,

1216
01:22:38,200 --> 01:22:43,700
so that there isn't so that that
image is challenged.

1217
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:47,300
That's when the mountain, lion
backs away and leaves you alone

1218
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:53,000
is when you don't run away.
You don't ask Yeah, and and not

1219
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:56,900
only does it, does this idea of
getting out there and saying,

1220
01:22:56,900 --> 01:23:00,500
yeah, you know, I I'm a
fundamentalist not only does

1221
01:23:00,500 --> 01:23:04,900
that help for kind of self
preservation of fundamentalism

1222
01:23:04,900 --> 01:23:10,600
as a community, but I think also
we're going to come into a time

1223
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:14,000
here real fast where I think
you're going to have a lot of

1224
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:16,500
mainstream LDS.
Folks, starting to question some

1225
01:23:16,500 --> 01:23:21,400
things and I'm not sure.
Let me rephrase.

1226
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:24,900
I know for a fact that it's
fundamentalist who are uniquely

1227
01:23:24,900 --> 01:23:28,800
positioned to be able to answer
some of those questions as they

1228
01:23:28,800 --> 01:23:32,700
start coming forward because
we've done our homework, right?

1229
01:23:32,700 --> 01:23:35,200
We've been we've either been
exposed to it because we've

1230
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,800
lived in those communities or
we've come out of the LDS church

1231
01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:44,400
and we've gone through that and
in some ways it's kind of a it's

1232
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:49,600
kind of a contradiction.
It seems on the surface but in

1233
01:23:49,600 --> 01:23:53,200
some ways we might be the The
ones uniquely positioned to help

1234
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:55,300
save some of that membership for
the church.

1235
01:23:55,500 --> 01:23:57,900
If not Mormonism in general,
right?

1236
01:23:57,900 --> 01:24:00,800
Not not having to throw the baby
out with the bathwater because

1237
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:03,100
you're right.
You said earlier there, there

1238
01:24:03,100 --> 01:24:05,800
seems to be two ways you can go
when you learn about this,

1239
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:08,200
right?
There's three but predominantly

1240
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:11,300
to one is that you leave the
church entirely you throw the

1241
01:24:11,300 --> 01:24:13,700
baby out with the bathwater.
The second is you become a

1242
01:24:13,700 --> 01:24:16,900
fundamentalist and then every
once in a while you find

1243
01:24:16,900 --> 01:24:21,200
somebody who can learn all this
and then stay in the church,

1244
01:24:21,500 --> 01:24:23,600
Really, it's those first two
options you got.

1245
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:27,700
So if we're in the in the in the
business of trying to save Souls

1246
01:24:27,700 --> 01:24:32,600
of trying to get people to a
better plane, a better way of

1247
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:36,200
life, we might be the ones
uniquely positioned at this

1248
01:24:36,500 --> 01:24:40,500
moment with in church history,
certainly LDS history certainly

1249
01:24:40,500 --> 01:24:44,200
Mormon history of stepping to
the Forefront and kind of

1250
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:46,000
answering that call a little
bit.

1251
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,100
Yeah.
Well and because what we're

1252
01:24:49,100 --> 01:24:54,800
dealing with is kind of the
virtual Warfare, we're in 1890,

1253
01:24:55,100 --> 01:24:57,700
the church made an agreement
with Babylon.

1254
01:24:58,500 --> 01:25:05,400
They said we will submit to you.
If you you take the persecution

1255
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:10,000
away, you take the threat and
the fear away and will do what

1256
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:15,000
you say.
And so, you know, the church, I

1257
01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:19,100
often say that the church will
be just as righteous as Satan

1258
01:25:19,100 --> 01:25:25,300
will give them permission.
And, and that's what it is.

1259
01:25:25,700 --> 01:25:29,800
And a lot of people have a hard
time hearing that, but it isn't

1260
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:33,000
so much plural marriage.
It's the fact, like any

1261
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:35,200
Doctrine.
If it had been baptisms for the

1262
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:39,100
dead, you know, and they had
agreed to stop doing that.

1263
01:25:39,700 --> 01:25:45,900
Like you are saying to Babylon,
will do what you want, you know,

1264
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:51,200
let us be a part of your system,
let us be and and Yeah, we're

1265
01:25:51,200 --> 01:25:53,400
going to teach people about
Jesus Christ and we know you

1266
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:58,900
guys don't like that, but we'll,
we'll keep them away from the

1267
01:25:58,900 --> 01:26:00,400
deeper things.
We're not going to let them know

1268
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:03,200
about plural, marriage,
fractional, let them know about

1269
01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:07,100
the law of consecration.
No, we're not going to let their

1270
01:26:07,100 --> 01:26:11,100
all about second anointings and
the fullness of where he stood.

1271
01:26:12,100 --> 01:26:15,300
We're not going to teach them
how to become king and a priest,

1272
01:26:15,300 --> 01:26:17,900
and queens and priestesses.
Well, we'll keep all that

1273
01:26:17,900 --> 01:26:21,200
information wave.
So they can just be good,

1274
01:26:21,200 --> 01:26:25,900
productive citizens, never
questioned, anything and that's

1275
01:26:25,900 --> 01:26:31,000
really what happened.
And so the church is always

1276
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:36,400
going to cave.
And every time they do, Some

1277
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:41,100
people wake up and it's a
minority, but, you know, I

1278
01:26:41,100 --> 01:26:43,500
another thing that happened to
me when I was in the church and

1279
01:26:43,500 --> 01:26:47,000
I'm just recalling is as I Was
preparing for my mission.

1280
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:51,300
When I went through the temple
and they did the washing

1281
01:26:51,300 --> 01:26:54,700
anointings.
I went in right after they made

1282
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:58,100
a change to that.
And they did the washroom

1283
01:26:58,100 --> 01:27:03,700
anointings and they said we wash
and anoint you only symbolically

1284
01:27:04,500 --> 01:27:07,000
as like, wait, why am I being
symbolically?

1285
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:09,500
Washing anointed, shouldn't I be
actually washing it?

1286
01:27:10,100 --> 01:27:15,500
Yes I don't understand.
You know and I was just like I'm

1287
01:27:15,500 --> 01:27:20,300
not symbolically baptized you
know right and and that stuck

1288
01:27:20,300 --> 01:27:23,000
with me and I had no answer for
that at all.

1289
01:27:23,500 --> 01:27:28,700
But it was one of those things
that like stuck with me And it

1290
01:27:28,700 --> 01:27:32,200
wasn't years later before I
figured out like, oh, they

1291
01:27:32,200 --> 01:27:34,600
changed it.
You know, one of them in 2019,

1292
01:27:35,100 --> 01:27:37,600
they made, they kind of said,
all right.

1293
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:39,900
Feminist.
You can rewrite the temple and

1294
01:27:39,900 --> 01:27:42,300
will take out all the stuff that
makes you feel icky.

1295
01:27:42,500 --> 01:27:45,700
Yep.
And they did it again and

1296
01:27:45,700 --> 01:27:50,300
they're gonna keep doing it
because Babylon.

1297
01:27:50,300 --> 01:27:54,600
Doesn't like the kingdom of God.
These are two separate kingdoms.

1298
01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:56,400
They're two different
jurisdictions.

1299
01:27:56,400 --> 01:28:02,900
And they will continue to
whittle away at what level of

1300
01:28:02,900 --> 01:28:05,600
righteousness.
The church is allowed to promote

1301
01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:13,200
and the, and when that happens,
not the majority, but a small

1302
01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:15,500
minority in the church is going
to say.

1303
01:28:16,000 --> 01:28:20,700
But wait, no, that was real
like, If I had a testimony of

1304
01:28:20,700 --> 01:28:24,200
that, they told me that they
wouldn't change it and then they

1305
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:29,600
did and they didn't come and
say, thus, saith the Lord unto

1306
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:33,000
my people.
It was just, it was what the

1307
01:28:33,008 --> 01:28:35,900
government wanted, every was
what Society wanted.

1308
01:28:35,900 --> 01:28:40,200
It was the popular thing to do
and that can't be why you

1309
01:28:40,200 --> 01:28:42,300
changed something.
And people are going to have

1310
01:28:42,300 --> 01:28:44,800
those questions.
And just like you said, if we're

1311
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:50,900
not out there, How, you know,
it's they can still find it, you

1312
01:28:50,907 --> 01:28:54,500
know, like there were people
that had their digging back in

1313
01:28:54,508 --> 01:29:00,700
the day that helped us but, you
know, as much as we can, I think

1314
01:29:00,700 --> 01:29:04,400
we should make it a little
easier for those people and give

1315
01:29:04,400 --> 01:29:09,800
them a hand to help.
Hold them up when they see that.

1316
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:12,600
The church has only following
that along.

1317
01:29:13,100 --> 01:29:18,700
Absolutely.
And you know, that the other

1318
01:29:18,700 --> 01:29:24,500
thing that that I think we have
to do as a community is not do

1319
01:29:24,500 --> 01:29:28,400
the i-told-you-so game, right?
Which is really tough to do.

1320
01:29:28,700 --> 01:29:32,300
Because certainly, as I've come
out as a fundamentalist, I've

1321
01:29:32,300 --> 01:29:37,300
had all sorts of people coming
around and well, Okay, I'll

1322
01:29:37,300 --> 01:29:39,600
share this story.
I don't think I've ever shared

1323
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:43,700
this on the podcast before but I
will, when when I went in and

1324
01:29:43,700 --> 01:29:48,400
told my leadership hey I'm done
in the LDS church.

1325
01:29:48,500 --> 01:29:53,200
It's been great.
I have no animosity but I'm out.

1326
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:59,000
I remember that they sent over
because I was in a position of

1327
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:03,500
leadership when I did this and
they sent somebody over to try

1328
01:30:03,500 --> 01:30:10,200
to like talk me back off the
ledge so to Speak write and I

1329
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:15,700
won't name names but this guy's
father is a seventy okay.

1330
01:30:16,000 --> 01:30:20,200
And he said what what problems
are you seeing?

1331
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:24,600
And I named off a bunch and one
of them was the kind of the

1332
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:29,200
caving that we were starting to
see around the lgbtq issue.

1333
01:30:29,900 --> 01:30:32,000
Right?
And I just told him, I said,

1334
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:36,000
look and in 20 to 30 years,
probably you're going to, I

1335
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:40,000
think you'll end Seeing gay
marriages solemnised, in

1336
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:43,900
solemnized in the temple and he
said that will never happen.

1337
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:49,100
Well, fast forward, only three
years later and the church came

1338
01:30:49,100 --> 01:30:55,900
out in support of the bill to
back, you know, gay marriage

1339
01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:59,900
that while they came out and
said we still believe it's

1340
01:30:59,900 --> 01:31:02,400
between a man and a woman, but
we're going to back this bill.

1341
01:31:02,700 --> 01:31:06,300
Make no mistake there, their
seating, the ground for four.

1342
01:31:06,900 --> 01:31:11,700
Seismic change.
And even this guy whose dad is a

1343
01:31:11,700 --> 01:31:15,800
70, I saw him on the road, the
other day, you know, just out

1344
01:31:15,800 --> 01:31:18,700
for a walk because I still live
in the same neighborhood.

1345
01:31:18,700 --> 01:31:22,300
I left the church in, and I
live, I live in Orem, right?

1346
01:31:22,300 --> 01:31:25,300
So it's, you know, great.
Yeah.

1347
01:31:25,300 --> 01:31:28,300
It's it's, you know and yeah
your neighborhood is your ward

1348
01:31:28,300 --> 01:31:32,400
here?
We just stopped and talked and

1349
01:31:32,400 --> 01:31:36,800
he said, you know, you may be
right and everything in me at

1350
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:38,200
that point Benjamin wanted to
be.

1351
01:31:38,200 --> 01:31:43,300
Like, I told you, I told you you
didn't listen it.

1352
01:31:43,300 --> 01:31:46,300
And one of the few times that I
listen to the spirit, right?

1353
01:31:46,300 --> 01:31:49,800
As I try to be better.
I'm like, don't I feel the

1354
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:53,500
spirit to go, don't do that
because that's just short

1355
01:31:53,500 --> 01:31:56,600
circuit, anything.
So, as people are coming out and

1356
01:31:56,600 --> 01:31:59,700
discovering all this, we can't
be because everything in, you

1357
01:31:59,700 --> 01:32:03,100
wants to be like, Mike, Culture,
I told you, you didn't listen,

1358
01:32:03,700 --> 01:32:06,400
we can't do that, we got to be
able to take a step back, a

1359
01:32:06,407 --> 01:32:07,900
little bit and be like, it's
okay.

1360
01:32:08,300 --> 01:32:11,400
It's alright, a lot of people
didn't know, it's cool, right?

1361
01:32:11,400 --> 01:32:13,300
And then be able to Shepherd
them along.

1362
01:32:14,500 --> 01:32:20,000
And we got to remember like that
was us to, you know, like that,

1363
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,400
that was us and they're doing
the same thing that we did where

1364
01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:26,900
they're like, no, no.
Like, it can't be that like the

1365
01:32:26,900 --> 01:32:31,900
church can't be an apostasy like
that has to be wrong, you know?

1366
01:32:31,900 --> 01:32:35,600
And they're they're trying to
negotiate that and hold on to

1367
01:32:35,600 --> 01:32:37,400
them.
We all did the same thing.

1368
01:32:37,700 --> 01:32:41,000
Absolutely.
The church we all do the same

1369
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,400
thing.
I think you know, like you

1370
01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:45,800
mentioned here And I think
Congress, kind of have an easier

1371
01:32:45,800 --> 01:32:51,200
time because they're like, well
I I already like, you know, lost

1372
01:32:51,200 --> 01:32:54,700
family and friends and rebuilt.
Like, what I thought I knew

1373
01:32:54,700 --> 01:32:56,800
about the world.
Let's do it again.

1374
01:32:56,800 --> 01:32:58,200
You know, it'll be a little
easier.

1375
01:32:58,200 --> 01:33:01,100
Second time around.
It is easier for converts

1376
01:33:01,100 --> 01:33:03,500
because we've already stripped
down to the foundation once

1377
01:33:03,500 --> 01:33:06,100
before.
So doing it again, doesn't seem

1378
01:33:06,100 --> 01:33:09,200
as terrifying.
Yeah, definitely.

1379
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:14,500
Now my wife had a much easier
time with things because She's

1380
01:33:14,500 --> 01:33:17,100
kind of funny.
Like she grew up in a in a very

1381
01:33:17,100 --> 01:33:21,400
secular home and they're you
know her parents are honorable

1382
01:33:21,400 --> 01:33:26,100
people but just not religious
and she um, she read the New

1383
01:33:26,100 --> 01:33:32,100
Testament when she was a
teenager and was like, oh like

1384
01:33:33,700 --> 01:33:37,200
This is right, you know, like
and so then she was just like,

1385
01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:41,000
okay, well, who are the
Christians that like, are

1386
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:45,900
actually trying to do what this
says, you know, like it isn't

1387
01:33:45,900 --> 01:33:48,000
the like Christmas and Easter
crowd.

1388
01:33:48,500 --> 01:33:52,300
And so, she started attending
church with a group of

1389
01:33:52,300 --> 01:33:57,700
Mennonites at because like
they're they were taking their

1390
01:33:57,700 --> 01:34:00,400
religion.
Seriously, and, you know, she

1391
01:34:00,400 --> 01:34:05,300
came across some missionaries
and From the church and started

1392
01:34:05,300 --> 01:34:09,200
reading the book of Mormon.
But she had kind of she'd heard

1393
01:34:09,200 --> 01:34:12,100
about plural marriage and she
thought it through and she was

1394
01:34:12,100 --> 01:34:14,900
like a lot, actually sounds like
a really great.

1395
01:34:14,900 --> 01:34:17,800
I like, I think I would like
that, you know, that sounds like

1396
01:34:17,800 --> 01:34:19,600
a great idea.
So she was asking the

1397
01:34:19,608 --> 01:34:21,800
missionaries about that, my
vote.

1398
01:34:24,900 --> 01:34:28,800
I'm sorry, I do love the LDS
missionaries but I'm not going

1399
01:34:28,800 --> 01:34:31,400
to lie, I do enjoy the squirm,
right?

1400
01:34:31,800 --> 01:34:34,000
Because I remember when I like
so, Please.

1401
01:34:34,200 --> 01:34:37,900
Yeah, I remember when I told you
I was kind of inoculation so to

1402
01:34:37,900 --> 01:34:41,500
speak early on because I got my
hands on some excerpts from the

1403
01:34:41,500 --> 01:34:44,900
Journal of discourses and I
remember I slid over the atom

1404
01:34:44,900 --> 01:34:48,900
God stuff to this one Elder and
I watched him squirm.

1405
01:34:49,200 --> 01:34:52,700
And then later I saw the bishop
squirm and the stake president,

1406
01:34:52,700 --> 01:34:54,600
squirmed a little less, but was
still squirming.

1407
01:34:54,800 --> 01:34:58,900
I'm a fan of the squirm.
I must admit, when when that

1408
01:34:58,900 --> 01:35:02,200
uncomfortable in this happens,
I'm like, oh good.

1409
01:35:02,500 --> 01:35:04,000
This is exactly.
Lee where I want to be.

1410
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:06,500
We're all a little guilty of
that.

1411
01:35:06,500 --> 01:35:09,700
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

1412
01:35:09,700 --> 01:35:13,100
So for her, you know, the
missionaries were like, wow, we

1413
01:35:13,100 --> 01:35:14,800
don't believe that.
That was, we did that a long

1414
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:17,400
time ago, gonna do that anymore.
And she, and she was like, oh,

1415
01:35:17,500 --> 01:35:18,900
okay.
Well, that's kind of.

1416
01:35:20,600 --> 01:35:22,000
All right.
Well, whatever in.

1417
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:24,200
But she read the book of Mormon.
She got a testimony of it.

1418
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:28,800
And then when she and I met, I
was like, all right.

1419
01:35:28,900 --> 01:35:32,800
Let me tell you about the atom
God doctor and the 1886

1420
01:35:32,800 --> 01:35:36,500
Revelation and, you know, and
she, she was like, this is

1421
01:35:36,500 --> 01:35:39,100
great, you know, like this.
She had been like I've been in

1422
01:35:39,100 --> 01:35:42,500
the church for like three or
four years now at this point and

1423
01:35:43,500 --> 01:35:48,800
I stopped learning anything new.
Yeah, here's to go and the fact

1424
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:52,400
that someone can actually tell
me something that I didn't know

1425
01:35:52,400 --> 01:35:55,000
through.
And through already is kind of

1426
01:35:55,000 --> 01:35:59,100
amazing.
Yeah, I'll say this for convert.

1427
01:35:59,600 --> 01:36:01,600
Well, let me just speak for
myself.

1428
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:06,500
I think you only come into
Mormonism is a convert when

1429
01:36:06,500 --> 01:36:09,400
maybe there's something a little
wrong with you, right.

1430
01:36:10,400 --> 01:36:13,800
And I say that because I know I
was certainly looking for

1431
01:36:13,800 --> 01:36:15,800
Redemption.
I was looking for my father's

1432
01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:20,200
Redemption who had passed on
before me, I had gotten into

1433
01:36:20,200 --> 01:36:24,000
some really horrible habits
drinking being one of them.

1434
01:36:24,000 --> 01:36:29,200
I was really good at that
naturally, and I just remember

1435
01:36:29,200 --> 01:36:32,600
standing in the font and I said,
you know what, God I will Follow

1436
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:37,100
this out to its most logical
conclusion, wherever your truth

1437
01:36:37,100 --> 01:36:39,500
is, I will follow that no matter
what.

1438
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:43,100
So I think I think converts or
people who've had that

1439
01:36:43,100 --> 01:36:46,300
conversion experience even if
you were raised in Mormonism, I

1440
01:36:46,300 --> 01:36:51,000
think we all have to go through
that but I think I think there

1441
01:36:51,000 --> 01:36:54,300
comes a point at which you're
just like whatever the truth is

1442
01:36:54,300 --> 01:36:57,600
consequences, be damned.
This is what I'm doing.

1443
01:36:58,200 --> 01:37:02,800
Yeah.
Yeah, it does come down to that

1444
01:37:02,800 --> 01:37:06,300
but I just like because you
know, when I talk to my wife

1445
01:37:06,300 --> 01:37:10,900
about my experience, like she
doesn't get all of the like

1446
01:37:10,900 --> 01:37:14,500
Kicking and Screaming that I did
to try and like hold on to the

1447
01:37:14,500 --> 01:37:17,800
church because she would just
like, well like once you learn

1448
01:37:18,300 --> 01:37:21,700
what happened, you go with that.
And I was like, yeah but like,

1449
01:37:23,100 --> 01:37:24,400
yeah.
Anyway what was a lot?

1450
01:37:24,400 --> 01:37:28,500
I had this whole like emotional
thing that I had to get over and

1451
01:37:28,500 --> 01:37:32,600
she was just like, oh, Great.
You can do plural, marriage,

1452
01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:33,900
still?
Let's do that.

1453
01:37:34,000 --> 01:37:36,100
You know.
Yeah, you know, I think part of

1454
01:37:36,100 --> 01:37:40,600
it is to and again, this is only
speaking from my experience and

1455
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:42,800
my wife was raised in the
church, but she was really

1456
01:37:42,800 --> 01:37:47,800
gung-ho about fundamentalism
more so than I was when even

1457
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:50,900
after, you know, things went
sideways a little bit there for

1458
01:37:50,900 --> 01:37:55,400
a while, she was pretty gung-ho
about it.

1459
01:37:55,400 --> 01:37:59,600
But the one thing I did notice
is that Even with as gung-ho is

1460
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:04,900
she was, she still had to
contend with the feelings of?

1461
01:38:05,400 --> 01:38:06,900
I'm letting my whole family
down.

1462
01:38:07,100 --> 01:38:12,800
I am disrupting, what, my family
has done for centuries, right?

1463
01:38:13,200 --> 01:38:16,600
We went to the LDS church
because that's what we did.

1464
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:19,600
As whoever you are.
The Smiths are the Jones, your

1465
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:23,500
whatever.
We go to the LDS church, and

1466
01:38:23,600 --> 01:38:26,300
there's this fear of losing your
children.

1467
01:38:26,300 --> 01:38:30,200
And, you know, Having Heaven Not
Be Heaven because not all your

1468
01:38:30,200 --> 01:38:36,800
kids are there and so it can be,
it's got to be horrible, right?

1469
01:38:36,800 --> 01:38:39,300
And you have all these fond
memories as a kid growing up in

1470
01:38:39,308 --> 01:38:43,300
the LDS church and and and
working the program and so

1471
01:38:43,300 --> 01:38:45,900
changing that can be super scary
and I think that's something

1472
01:38:45,900 --> 01:38:49,200
that's fundamentalist.
We have to be cognizant of as

1473
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:51,100
well.
Is that look a lot of these

1474
01:38:51,100 --> 01:38:57,600
folks are stepping out into a
place that is Foreign it is

1475
01:38:58,700 --> 01:39:01,600
different than what they've
known and it's upending.

1476
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:04,800
A lot of things that people held
as truth and infallible.

1477
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:09,600
Yeah, well, and one of the
things that the church does in

1478
01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:15,000
general, I don't know about
like, you know, different sex

1479
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:17,100
might be doing things.
Okay.

1480
01:39:17,100 --> 01:39:21,200
But one of the things that the
church does really well, is they

1481
01:39:21,200 --> 01:39:25,500
have organization?
Like it's, you know, No, who's

1482
01:39:25,500 --> 01:39:29,100
in charge of what and like
you've got a manual for

1483
01:39:29,100 --> 01:39:31,700
everything.
And you know, like if you want

1484
01:39:31,700 --> 01:39:34,100
to know how like how is the
right way to do this, like

1485
01:39:34,100 --> 01:39:39,900
there's a manual and there's the
person in charge and and that is

1486
01:39:39,900 --> 01:39:45,100
a brings a sense of safety.
You know, the problem is with

1487
01:39:45,100 --> 01:39:49,400
the top down approach,
everyone's on the same page, but

1488
01:39:49,400 --> 01:39:52,900
if the leaders were wrong, it's
the wrong page.

1489
01:39:53,900 --> 01:39:57,800
So the organization Can be a
hindrance but it still feels

1490
01:39:57,800 --> 01:40:01,300
safe and so people leaving that
and coming into fundamentalism

1491
01:40:02,200 --> 01:40:06,500
and it's sort of the Wild West
with fundamentalist.

1492
01:40:06,500 --> 01:40:10,400
It's like well it's kind of hard
a lot of times to see a safe

1493
01:40:10,400 --> 01:40:11,900
landing Place.
Yeah.

1494
01:40:12,200 --> 01:40:14,100
Yep.
And I think that's going to be

1495
01:40:14,100 --> 01:40:17,500
the challenge, right?
We have to we have to be in such

1496
01:40:17,500 --> 01:40:22,800
a place spiritually that we're
comfortable getting our answers

1497
01:40:22,800 --> 01:40:26,700
directly from God but also So
here I think here's the bigger

1498
01:40:26,700 --> 01:40:29,500
challenge.
We have to be willing and then

1499
01:40:29,500 --> 01:40:33,200
become comfortable with this
idea of can I be a soft landing

1500
01:40:33,200 --> 01:40:37,900
spot for somebody else, right?
Can I be that guy that when

1501
01:40:37,900 --> 01:40:40,800
someone's like, so what do I do
on Sunday now?

1502
01:40:40,800 --> 01:40:45,100
Right and then you say, you know
what, come to my house, we have

1503
01:40:45,100 --> 01:40:48,300
Sacramento my house, we have a
little, a little, You Know,

1504
01:40:48,300 --> 01:40:52,400
lesson that we go over, we have
a family discussion come be part

1505
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:55,100
of that.
And so we have to be able to

1506
01:40:55,200 --> 01:40:59,100
Extend that and be comfortable
being that soft landing spot for

1507
01:40:59,100 --> 01:41:02,700
somebody else.
Yeah yeah we really do.

1508
01:41:02,700 --> 01:41:07,500
I mean you know, our Pioneer
ancestors planted crops that

1509
01:41:07,500 --> 01:41:12,300
they knew they weren't going to
eat for the future people who

1510
01:41:12,300 --> 01:41:16,800
were coming to do and people
have done that for us.

1511
01:41:18,100 --> 01:41:24,100
You know I wasn't going to do
like I wasn't going to do all of

1512
01:41:24,100 --> 01:41:28,600
the research that Uranium did to
bring everything about Adam God

1513
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:32,700
together on this, you know.
Like it was enough work for me

1514
01:41:32,700 --> 01:41:36,600
to like get through the book.
Like that was, I was like my

1515
01:41:36,600 --> 01:41:44,200
effort and so and there's tons
of people who, who worked and

1516
01:41:44,200 --> 01:41:49,600
labored and suffered, who put us
in a better position and to

1517
01:41:49,600 --> 01:41:53,100
benefit us.
And we have to, we have to be

1518
01:41:53,100 --> 01:41:58,500
that chain to the next Like, we
have to deepen an increase our

1519
01:41:58,500 --> 01:42:01,500
spirituality.
We have to improve our ability

1520
01:42:01,500 --> 01:42:07,400
and receive Revelation and then
we have to make the road please

1521
01:42:07,400 --> 01:42:14,800
here was absolutely.
So what's your plans for for

1522
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:17,300
your?
I don't know what your channels

1523
01:42:17,300 --> 01:42:18,900
on Tick-Tock.
How's that work?

1524
01:42:19,500 --> 01:42:22,400
I'm not sure.
Like I said I'm I'm kind of a

1525
01:42:22,400 --> 01:42:25,500
technophobe so yeah page.
Ages.

1526
01:42:27,000 --> 01:42:31,200
There's a lot of topics I
haven't covered that.

1527
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:36,200
I still want to, I've had a
couple people who are on the

1528
01:42:36,200 --> 01:42:39,700
like Pro LDS church side.
You know, I'd there's one

1529
01:42:39,700 --> 01:42:44,600
Creator who said I was like,
well, I like If Joseph, Smith

1530
01:42:44,600 --> 01:42:46,900
really did teach the atom God
doctor.

1531
01:42:46,900 --> 01:42:49,700
And I'd take that a lot more,
seriously, you know, he's like,

1532
01:42:49,700 --> 01:42:52,300
I still think it was just
Brigham, the made it up, you

1533
01:42:52,300 --> 01:42:58,600
know, so I'm like, all right.
Well, I gotta, I gotta go with

1534
01:42:58,600 --> 01:43:03,000
that and detail and, you know,
lay all that out.

1535
01:43:04,300 --> 01:43:08,600
And so, yeah, there's a lot of
things that I want to do if I've

1536
01:43:08,600 --> 01:43:15,800
just kind of having a bite size,
Segment put out there but

1537
01:43:15,900 --> 01:43:18,900
there's so much that people can
do one of the things that like,

1538
01:43:18,900 --> 01:43:25,400
I've learned an observation that
I've made from like the TLC

1539
01:43:25,500 --> 01:43:29,500
shows that have been out there.
I think that's if anyone offers

1540
01:43:29,500 --> 01:43:34,400
you a bunch of money to like,
have your family filmed, I would

1541
01:43:34,900 --> 01:43:42,600
decline that run run, there are
better ways to do what you want

1542
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:45,800
to do with that.
At that aren't going to come

1543
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:49,400
with like a lot of pressure to
like have fights with your wives

1544
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:54,400
and stuff, don't do that.
But like there's so many like I

1545
01:43:54,400 --> 01:43:58,500
know that there are families out
there that are doing

1546
01:43:58,500 --> 01:44:02,300
homesteading, you know, their
polygamous families that like

1547
01:44:02,800 --> 01:44:06,500
they're there are whole like
YouTube channels and Tick-Tock

1548
01:44:06,900 --> 01:44:12,800
pages that are totally dedicated
to homesteading where and that's

1549
01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:17,100
like Here's me, milking my cow.
And this is how I do that.

1550
01:44:17,100 --> 01:44:19,700
And this is how we take care of
the goats and the chickens and

1551
01:44:19,800 --> 01:44:21,700
like, people watch that.
And they think that's

1552
01:44:21,700 --> 01:44:25,500
interesting do if that's if
someone listening to that and

1553
01:44:25,500 --> 01:44:30,600
that's your situation do that
with your wives and talk about

1554
01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:33,900
what it's like doing that as a
plural family.

1555
01:44:33,900 --> 01:44:38,900
I know that there are people who
could do that really easily like

1556
01:44:39,900 --> 01:44:43,600
I'm kind of focused on breaking
down dog.

1557
01:44:43,700 --> 01:44:47,400
Aaron and I'm just trying to
take like these things to the

1558
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:49,600
church.
Used to teach the doesn't

1559
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:51,200
anymore.
That have been preserved through

1560
01:44:51,200 --> 01:44:55,500
fundamentalism, and I want to
put it out in like simple,

1561
01:44:55,500 --> 01:45:00,500
easy-to-understand bite-size
formats, but that isn't what

1562
01:45:00,500 --> 01:45:04,200
everyone has to do.
Get on there.

1563
01:45:04,200 --> 01:45:06,400
Like, if you've got something
unique and if you're living

1564
01:45:06,400 --> 01:45:11,800
plural, marriage, you're pretty
unique to a lot of people, if

1565
01:45:11,800 --> 01:45:16,000
you are, you know, If you're an
interesting person who has a

1566
01:45:16,100 --> 01:45:21,800
cool hobby, if you really like
hunting, if you really like, you

1567
01:45:21,800 --> 01:45:28,400
know, whatever you're into,
there are segments of tick-tock

1568
01:45:28,500 --> 01:45:32,000
that are all about that weird
obscure hobby that you have.

1569
01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:36,800
And if you've got that and your
fundamentalist like, get on Tick

1570
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:40,800
Tock and just be both, you know,
like talk about your the stuff

1571
01:45:40,800 --> 01:45:46,400
that you're into and be open
about being a fundamentalist and

1572
01:45:46,400 --> 01:45:48,400
a.
And like that's going to break

1573
01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:51,800
down barriers for people, then
you're not a scary person.

1574
01:45:51,800 --> 01:45:55,200
You're a real human being.
Absolutely.

1575
01:45:56,100 --> 01:45:59,600
Well dude, that's good stuff.
We've been at this now just shy

1576
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:02,700
of two hours.
So anything you want to say

1577
01:46:02,700 --> 01:46:08,300
that?
You didn't say Nami and I think

1578
01:46:08,300 --> 01:46:10,200
I covered it.
I just yeah.

1579
01:46:10,200 --> 01:46:14,800
Like I guess just to reiterate
like if we don't speak up for

1580
01:46:14,800 --> 01:46:18,000
ourselves, other people are
going to be happy to do it and

1581
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:21,700
they're going to take the very
worst version of what we believe

1582
01:46:21,700 --> 01:46:27,000
out there and make it seem like
That is the only thing and, you

1583
01:46:27,008 --> 01:46:32,000
know, get out there if you're
happy healthy, people who are

1584
01:46:32,000 --> 01:46:37,500
doing things the right way.
Let your light shine get out

1585
01:46:37,500 --> 01:46:42,100
there, big cock, YouTube,
whatever you do, but let people

1586
01:46:42,100 --> 01:46:45,300
see what you're doing.
And that's going to have a huge

1587
01:46:45,300 --> 01:46:48,500
effect on people.
Perfect couldn't have said it

1588
01:46:48,500 --> 01:46:51,300
any better myself.
Benjamin, thanks for being here,

1589
01:46:51,300 --> 01:46:53,500
man.
Yeah, thanks so much.

1590
01:46:53,600 --> 01:46:56,600
Let's do it again now.
I tell everybody this once

1591
01:46:56,600 --> 01:46:58,600
you're on once you have a
standing invitation.

1592
01:46:58,800 --> 01:47:01,800
So okay, it's got something you
want to talk about you.

1593
01:47:01,800 --> 01:47:04,500
Let me know will make the time
cool.

1594
01:47:04,700 --> 01:47:08,400
Yeah, that'd be awesome.
All right, dude, it was awesome.

1595
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:10,700
Let's do it again.
All right, thanks David.

1596
01:47:10,900 --> 01:47:12,200
Thanks.
Bye everybody.