Episode #208 The First Vision W/Ken Peterson

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The you're listening to the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Ken, how's it going, man?
It's going very well, my friend.

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How are you doing?
Good.

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How's how's life treating you?
Everything going good with the

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family.
Yes, you know, nice.

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It's one of those times where
life is so good, you just, you

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wonder what's going to happen.
You know, it's a little too good

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so.
Dude, I hear you.

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No, I was feeling that today.
Like I got a really good night's

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sleep last night.
Hackers won the night before.

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That's always a good thing.
Victory Monday and then got up

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this morning.
Like I got caught up at work,

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which was unusual, right?
Not like to the point of caught

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up being without work, but like
not completely slammed.

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Then I lifted some weights and
then I ate a steak and now I get

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to talk to you.
So it's a darn good day.

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Perfect day, perfect day.
Dude.

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I am so glad you're here to talk
about this because I'll tell you

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what, if there there are a
couple of things that we as

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Mormons get beat up on a lot,
right?

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One is the historicity of both
the Book of Mormon and Abraham,

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right?
A great price.

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The other is, is just what we're
going to talk about tonight, the

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first vision, right?
And this is one of those things

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that people will come to, to to
Mormons no matter where, where

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they're at, fundamentalist,
mainstream, whatever.

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And they will, one of the first
things they attack is the the

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accounts of the first vision
because there's four in one,

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right?
And you and I are guys that are

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like, look, the gospel is true.
There's an explanation there's

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or we're missing something,
right?

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And so I am so so excited for
this one and thanks for doing

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it.
Dave, I get to do all the fun

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ones.
I'm so glad you we got to do

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this, you know, and as usual,
the blessings belong to the

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person who gets to dive deep and
prepare this stuff.

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So I just, I've just been
eating, drinking and sleeping.

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I mean, I've had this debate any
number of times online and in

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person, but to have an
opportunity to put it all

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together, to look at it a bird's
eye view and have all of the

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sources at your fingertips,
that's fantastic.

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Fantastic.
So.

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Well, thanks for doing it
because I, I, it is sorely

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needed.
So I'm I'm ready to, I'm ready

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to go, bro I'm excited.
So, yeah, and but those of you

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listening and not able to see
the slides, I'm sorry.

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I'm going to talk a little bit
about it because they're a lot

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of fun.
You like that first slide?

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Is it a little romanticized
maybe?

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How does it differ from the
tradition?

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Romanticized.
I was just at the Sacred Grove a

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few weeks ago.
It does not look like that.

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Here's the Here's what we're
going to discuss just because

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it's, well, one of the one of
the new things that occurred to

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me 1st, I'm going to do the the
extremely short version of our

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discussion tonight.
So online, an opponent of the

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restored gospel asks me the
gotcha question, which one of

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the many different versions of
Joseph Smith's vision do you

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believe, quote UN quote, like,
oh, he, he has me now.

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And my response is now all of
them.

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And then I asked him the
question, which of the gospel

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accounts of Jesus Christ do you
believe?

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All of them.
It's the same thing.

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And the notion that you can only
have one identical account is

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actually contrary to
historicity.

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In any case, the picture that
we're looking at I generated

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with the AI, and I generated it
using the description of the

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Sacred Grove given by the
curator of Historical Sites for

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the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints.

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And this was new to me.
It looks almost like fairy land.

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All right.
OK.

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Most of the paintings that we
see, let me go back here, most

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of the paintings that we see of
the Sacred Grove are in very,

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very green, fully grown leaves
and all that sort of stuff.

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That's what the Sacred Grove
looks like in the summer.

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That's not when Joseph Smith
went to the Sacred Grove.

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So get this description.
This blew my mind.

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So this is Mark Staker.
We don't know when early spring

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was for him.
We have a kind of range.

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But if you consider March and
April and even well into almost

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the end of May, it's not green.
The leaves come out toward the

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end of May, but before that.
A lot of people started thinking

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of the Grove as being brown, but
it wasn't brown either.

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In early spring, what you're
going to have are blossoms.

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These trees are going to be full
of blossoms.

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The Elm tree will have the
purplish brown flowers.

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Hophorn Beam has these dangling
bright cream colors.

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Cherry blossoms.
Swipe the little tinge of pink

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on them and 100 feet of cherry
blossoms.

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You can imagine this big white
presence in the forest.

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Lots of color.
The Beech trees, the blossoms

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are yellow, so you'll have areas
of yellow.

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And there was a lot of Beech
trees on the property as well.

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So you're going to have a a
whole have whole Groves of

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yellow out there.
So when Joseph goes out to pray

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and you think a bit of brown,
sure, but mostly color

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everywhere he's looking lots of
bright colors of all these

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blossoms from these trees.
Kind of makes you want to go out

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there in March, April and have a
look.

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You know, right.
I had AI generate with I I

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tweaked to the Sky's description
just here and there have

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generated generated a couple of
different views of what that

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might be.
So those are those four types of

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trees going together and what
their colors would look like

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during springtime in Palmyra
near Palmyra, you.

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Know something else?
I was just thinking of one of

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the reasons that Joseph's father
had such a rough time farming

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when he was up in Vermont was
because of the volcano that went

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off.
I was at Sumatra.

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Is that right, Ken?
Was it Sumatra?

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I can't remember.
I don't recall, but it was one

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of the Indonesian Asia Pacific
volcanoes.

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Yeah, it was a super volcano,
right?

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It caused all sorts of havoc
with the growing seasons.

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And look, here's the other
thing.

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We're making assumptions about a
normal spring.

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We don't know if it's back to
being normal weather patterns

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yet at this point, right?
I forget the name of the winter

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that it was called.
It's like the.

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The Little Ice Age is what they
called it.

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Or, or the year without a summer
or something.

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It's very strange, yes.
Yeah.

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So there's there's a couple
factors there that just off the

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top of my head, I could think of
that as we try to place

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ourselves in Joseph's shoes, we
can look at what a normal spring

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looks like.
But because gosh, that would

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have been probably, I'd have to
go back and look at the dates.

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But I'm guessing that's probably
less than a decade after

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Joseph's born.
I mean, it takes a little while

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for that stuff to filter
through.

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Yeah.
Yeah, and it was, that's what I

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that's what I had a hand.
And Joseph Smith senior having

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to move around as he did, he's
been accused of being a lazy or

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a bad farmer, that sort of
thing.

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But those circumstances and of
course, in the destiny of God,

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those circumstances, what
brought them not to Palmyra and

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to Hill Camara, the hill and the
hill of records where he could

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find the cool place.
So there are no accidents for

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God Anyway, I just this view of
the I could only, and I tried.

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Even when you go to the place,
people are always asking where

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exactly did it happen?
And nobody knows for sure.

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And in fact, they they believe
there are three or four trees

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that currently exist in the
Grove that they call witness

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trees that were there when the
first vision supposedly

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happened.
Is that something you'd consider

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to think about?
So to set the stage we want to,

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I'd like to discuss the
significance of the first

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vision.
Wikipedia says secular scholars

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and non Mormons view the vision
as a deliberate deception, a

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false memory, a delusion or
hallucination, or some some

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combination of these.
I get it, I get it.

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So this is kind of what we're as
believers.

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How do we explain why we believe
to others?

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Richard Bushman in his preface
to Rough Stone Rolling explained

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it this way.
Everything about Joseph Smith

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matters to people who have built
their lives on his teachings to

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protect their own deepest
commitments.

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Believers want to shield their
prophets reputation.

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On the other hand, people who
have broken away from Mormonism

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and they produce a large amount
of scholarship have to justify

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their decision to leave.
They cannot countenance evidence

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of divine inspiration in his
teachings without catching

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themselves in a disastrous
error.

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You know, that is a great point,
that old adage about you can

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leave more, you can leave the
church, but you can leave it

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alone.
Yeah, right.

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I think there's a lot of truth
to that.

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I And I think it's because,
quite frankly, Mormonism makes

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promises that other religions
just wouldn't dare.

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Right.
Yeah.

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And if you're going to reject
that, you almost have to

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constantly prove yourself right,
or you're going to or, or, or

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you're going to constantly be in
a state of, of kind of cognitive

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dissonance, for lack of a better
term.

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The other thing I'll say this,
I've, I've always thought it

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funny that those people who
scream the loudest about a

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certain topic, in this case,
we'll use those folks who who

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kick against the gospel after
they leave it.

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They don't do so because they're
confident.

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They do so because they're not
confident in what they've done.

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And the more people they can get
to agree with them, the less

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crazy they sound.
Right, though, the more they

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have to be right, the more that
people agree with them.

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And I, I, I've often said that
you got to be careful when you

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listen to someone who says that
they're unbiased on this and

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they come from the religion
because there's no such thing as

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unbiased, right?
They're doing missionary work

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just like Mormons do missionary
work.

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They're trying to win people
over to their side because they

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need it for validation.
Yeah.

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Well, and I suppose in in a
broader sense, everyone has to

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be able to justify their lives
decisions for one way or

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another.
But I understand that Neil L

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Anderson, the current apostle
for the LDS Church, said on his

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first visit to Prophet Joseph
Smith at age 17, an Angel called

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Joseph.
Speaking of the Angel, on his

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first visit to the Prophet
Joseph Smith at age 17, an Angel

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called Joseph by name and told
him that he, Moroni, was a

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messenger sent from the presence
of God and that God had to work

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for him to do.
Imagine what Joseph must have

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fought when the Angel then told
him that his name would be had

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for good and evil among all
nations, kindreds and tongues.

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As a 16 year old, I probably
would have tried to run away.

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The good spoken of Joseph Smith
came slowly.

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The evil speaking began
immediately.

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While love for Joseph grew, so
also did hostility.

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At the age of 38 he was murdered
by a mob of 150 men with painted

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faces.
Should we be surprised with the

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evil spoken against him?
The Lord told Joseph of his

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destiny.
Quote, The ends of the earth

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shall inquire after thy name,
and fools shall have thee in

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division, and hell shall Rage
Against thee, while the pure in

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heart, the wise and the
virtuous, shall seek blessings

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constantly from under thy hand.
So we get the significance.

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I.
It's kind of a binary thing

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going on here, as we shall see.
Do the ends of the Earth

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actually inquire after his name
today in a collector's edition?

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This is, I'm going to shut my
phone off because everybody

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wants to talk to me right when
I'm busy with Dave.

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That's better.
In the collector's edition.

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Smithsonian Magazine,
highlighting the 100 most

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significant Americans of all
time was in 20/14/2015

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Mccattering category of
religious figures who was #1.

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Joseph Smith occupies the top
spot in a listing of 11

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historical influential
personalities in the 14 years he

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Joseph led the church, Smith
created a religious culture that

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survived his death, survived his
death, flourished in the most

228
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,560
desolate regions of the United
States, and continues to grow

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00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,720
worldwide.
That's all an understatement.

230
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:13,240
I've tried to, I've pondered
this subject to think in terms

231
00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,040
of my understanding of human
history.

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00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:22,000
If there is any other movement,
political or religious or

233
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:27,040
otherwise, that can compare with
the rapid, peaceful growth of

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00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:30,400
the Church of Jesus Christ, of
that Mormon, of the of the

235
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,880
Restoration, we'll call it for
all of our listeners.

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00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:40,520
It's unprecedented in a matter
of 200 years.

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00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,640
You know, the, the thing, I
remember one of the things, and

238
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:51,280
this was after I became a
Mormon, I was probably in my mid

239
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,200
20s.
So I'd probably been in the

240
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,200
faith about six years at that
point.

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00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:02,120
And I remember I was reading on,
I was in college and I had taken

242
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:08,080
a course on on religious
systems, right?

243
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:10,920
And I thought, oh, this will be
cool because I'll learn about

244
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:12,840
different religions.
Well, that's not what it was.

245
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,840
It was actually deconstructing
all religion, right?

246
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,800
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and one of the things that

247
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:25,760
I remember them saying is that
you can always spot the ones

248
00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:32,760
that weren't legit, is what he
said, because he said the ones

249
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,200
who are built solely on a cult
of personality.

250
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,440
Once that leader leaves it, it
Withers and dies, right.

251
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,680
And so that got me thinking, OK,
the fact that that Brigham is

252
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:50,760
like in some ways the opposite
of Joseph Smith in a lot of

253
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,240
ways, right?
Joseph's very good at being able

254
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:57,680
to rally the the group with
just, you know, kind of come on

255
00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:00,280
everybody, we're going to get to
work and it's going to be great.

256
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,720
And this Brigham's more like,
get your butt in the back of the

257
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:04,720
wagon.
I don't want to hear anything

258
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,599
till we get to Utah, right?
Like, don't make me turn this

259
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:09,640
wagon train around kind of a
thing, right?

260
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,359
But it still survives and
thrives no matter who's at the

261
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,480
helm.
That is a testimony of something

262
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:22,680
that has divinity written all
over it to have two guys whose

263
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,800
personalities are that different
be able to.

264
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,800
Well, so different than one's
wife doesn't like him, you know?

265
00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:30,320
Right.
Yeah.

266
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:32,960
Yep.
That's pretty.

267
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:33,640
That's pretty.
No.

268
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,240
It's it's true.
I have to.

269
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:43,880
I was we were talking earlier
and this last weekend I had some

270
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,280
work to do.
I was running up Choral Workshop

271
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:51,320
in Elko, NV.
So within a 36 hour period I

272
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,800
drove from St.
George, UT, as far South as you

273
00:17:54,800 --> 00:18:00,600
can get in Utah, length and
breadth of Utah, all while

274
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:06,760
contemplating this topic.
And here I am rolling along I-15

275
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,000
and I-80, seeing every single
bit of civilization that is

276
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,760
along, which is along that way,
which is considerable, and

277
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,800
realizing it's there because of
the first vision.

278
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,080
So when we talk about the
significance of it, and that's

279
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:27,600
just, that's just Utah.
There are more Mormons outside

280
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,760
of the United States than there
are in the United States today,

281
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,600
right?
Just to give us some just

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00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:37,560
talking about the significance
of this first vision.

283
00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,600
And if I were the devil, I would
most definitely try and go after

284
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,320
it and poke holes in it and
destroy people's faith over it.

285
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:46,880
Oh, yeah.
If you can destroy the point of

286
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,080
beginning, you're, you're
completely lost.

287
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,360
There's no basis of bearing
after that point.

288
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,080
You're you're, you're off the
reservation, so to speak at that

289
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,240
point.
So persecuted and beaten with

290
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,480
numerous attempts on his life
and the lives of his followers,

291
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,080
his friends and his own family.
Which by the way, I think was

292
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,560
unquestionably the hardest thing
for Joseph Smith.

293
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,800
For him to undergo the the
trials and the beatings and the

294
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,360
time 15 was one thing, but to
know that his own people who had

295
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:20,840
chosen to devote themselves to
the church, that was restored

296
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,560
through him, that would just
wreck me.

297
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,400
I would just, I would quit.
It's not worth it, you know?

298
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:34,080
But anyway, Joseph Smith was
never lawfully convicted of

299
00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:41,320
anything, and was ultimately
shot and killed while lawfully

300
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:46,080
awaiting yet another trial in a
Carthage, IL jail cell,

301
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,560
supposedly for his own
protection.

302
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,840
Yep, have.
So, and here's the point of all

303
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,160
of this.
Having assassinated his person,

304
00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:02,800
why should we be surprised that
he has enemies today who have

305
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,640
inherited the mantle of those
who killed him?

306
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,760
I'm going to want to assassinate
his character today, all right?

307
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,760
It's the same purpose and it's
the same spirit at work.

308
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,720
So that shouldn't surprise us.
This is a picture of Joseph

309
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:26,400
Smith and his friends, apostles,
and this is one of one of the

310
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,800
accounts of the last charge,
which gives us more perspective

311
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,200
relative to the significance of
this first vision.

312
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,920
Joseph Smith said I have rolled
this Kingdom off of my

313
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,360
shoulders.
What Kingdom is he talking

314
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,440
about?
Kingdom of the Mormons?

315
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,240
Kingdom of Nauvoo.
Kingdom of God.

316
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,760
Kingdom of God on the earth,
rolled it off my shoulders onto

317
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,560
the shoulders of the 12 and they
can carry out this work and

318
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,800
build up His Kingdom.
I'm tired at 38.

319
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,440
Most of us aren't ready to say
that yet, but he's been through

320
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,680
some stuff.
I have been mobbed.

321
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,680
I have suffered so much from
outsiders and from my own

322
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:11,240
family, his own family.
Some of the brethren think they

323
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,000
can carry out this work better
than I can, far better.

324
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,880
How about that for people?
I have asked the Lord to take me

325
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,000
away.
You know, for someone of his

326
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:29,520
character and demonstrated
strength to say that, it's been

327
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,080
pretty bad, he said.
I have to seal my testimony to

328
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:38,960
this generation with my blood.
I have to do it for this or this

329
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,400
work will never progress, and
forth for this work will never

330
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,120
progress until I am gone, or the
testimony is of no force till

331
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,200
the testator is dead.
That's how a will and a

332
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,240
testament works.
People know who I am when they

333
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,840
talk about me, or people little
know who I am when they talk

334
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,680
about me, and they never will
know until they see me wait in

335
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,520
the balance in the Kingdom of
God.

336
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:08,360
How true is that?
And how I anticipate being able

337
00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:12,120
to meet him in person and
experience his life through that

338
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:15,360
meeting?
And I dare not tell them.

339
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,000
Then they will know who I am and
see me as I am.

340
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,800
I dare not tell them, and they
do not know me.

341
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,880
So he's so the This account of
the last charge is from Mary

342
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,880
Leitner.
Occurred rather late, 19 O 5.

343
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,520
She was an early, early plural
wife, one of his first plural

344
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:39,080
wives, one of the wives who was
married and remained married to

345
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,120
a man and had I think 9 or 10
children by him and was fully

346
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:45,680
pregnant and showing when she
was sealed with the Prophet

347
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,600
Joseph Smith, which is
interesting.

348
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,000
All of his first wives were
pregnant and showing.

349
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,680
And in those days you didn't
have any inquiries when you're

350
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,800
expecting.
That's that's all, that's a

351
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,760
that's another story.
Let's go on.

352
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,600
So why should?
Here's the question in my mind.

353
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,160
So if his name should be had for
good and evil among all nations,

354
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,880
why?
What's the big deal?

355
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:15,480
What Joseph Smith claimed was
greater than the claims of any

356
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:21,280
other man who lived upon the
earth except for Jesus Christ.

357
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,320
That seems like enemies of
church really love to pick on

358
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,080
that statement.
Whoa, he's just a big braggart.

359
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:29,480
Well, let's let's go through
this.

360
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,120
He claimed that he was visited
by the living God, our Heavenly

361
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:37,560
Father and his Son, the Creator
and Savior of worlds in plural,

362
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,240
the resurrected Jesus Christ,
that guy.

363
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,640
Furthermore, Joseph Smith
claimed that God had chosen him

364
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:50,400
personally to restore the
Kingdom of God on earth.

365
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,480
Here's the real kicker through
which all mankind, not just the

366
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:01,440
members of the Church, all
mankind, all of the family of

367
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:06,080
Adam, living and dead, could
receive ordinances necessary to

368
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:11,240
salvation in eternal life.
All on him, yes.

369
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:14,560
So he's going to be at the Nexus
of this fight between good and

370
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,560
he.
Absolutely.

371
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,400
This photo was so cool to me.
The guy on the right, Joseph F

372
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,120
Smith the great.
We can spend all our talk about

373
00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:34,160
him, the guy standing next to
him with his son, Joseph

374
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,000
Fielding Smith.
Right.

375
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,920
I I love to see these people
that we know about their older

376
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:41,480
photos.
I love to see them in their

377
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,760
prime, to see father and son
standing together.

378
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,360
Joseph Fielding Smith famously
said Mormonism, as it is called,

379
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:53,320
must stand or fall on the story
of Joseph Smith.

380
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,280
Yeah, he was either a prophet of
God, divinely called, properly

381
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:02,280
appointed and commissioned, or
he was one of the biggest frauds

382
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,560
this world has ever seen.
There is no middle ground and I

383
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,920
would say the biggest fraud
because he made the biggest

384
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,280
claims.
Absolutely.

385
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,080
And and you know, I like that
statement, right?

386
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:19,520
A lot of people cringe when they
have read that statement, right?

387
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:25,440
And I look again, if it's not
true, I've got no time for it,

388
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,520
right?
It's just what it is.

389
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:34,280
Can I call you so?
And so, yeah, yeah, we better be

390
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,240
able, we better be able to peg
to that, right.

391
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,160
We better be able to set the
benchmark there, right, because.

392
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,200
This is where it starts and I
will now quote my favorite

393
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,640
saying of David Sanders.
If it's not true, we may as well

394
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:50,680
this is.
A family show.

395
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,080
This is a family show.
It's not.

396
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,480
True, we may as well just watch
Old Yeller.

397
00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:01,520
Yeah, Yep.
I left for a good 15 minutes

398
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,280
over that anyway.
Yeah.

399
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,920
So it's impossible to overstate
the significance of the first

400
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,800
vision.
Now, just to put it all in

401
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:20,800
perspective, Scripture records
only three other occasions upon

402
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,440
which the Father has spoken from
the heavens.

403
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,400
These are the Savior's baptism
#1 Mount of transfiguration #2

404
00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:33,120
and his introduction of Christ
to the Nephites in the New world

405
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,640
#4 is the Sacred Grove and
Palmyra.

406
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,720
That's pretty short list.
So how many accounts are we

407
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,640
talking about?
They're divided into primary

408
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,160
accounts, the accounts that
Joseph Smith himself either

409
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,640
wrote or directed through his
scribes, and secondary accounts.

410
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,760
How many is that?
There are four primary accounts.

411
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,280
I have looked them listed there
with the dates and we'll go

412
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:13,240
through each of them.
And there are 5 secondary

413
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,400
contemporary accounts.
There are five more accounts,

414
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,800
secondary accounts that are not
contemporary with Joseph Smith

415
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,480
that could be added to that list
and we'll look at that.

416
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,080
This website that I have listed
here, LDS

417
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,760
scripturesteachings.org, love
it.

418
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,800
Super handy.
You click on any one of those

419
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,880
accounts and suddenly you're
reading it full text and it's

420
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,320
not a lot of reading.
You could sit down and read all

421
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,320
10 accounts in probably 30
minutes.

422
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,280
Does that make sense?
Yep, Yep.

423
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:46,840
And you know, and that's not
encourage.

424
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,040
People to do that.
But that's good information too,

425
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,600
right?
Because as I've heard various

426
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:58,120
podcasters or pundits comment on
this, they never actually break

427
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,360
it down for you.
What are the numbers?

428
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,360
What are primary?
What are secondary?

429
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:07,520
What are, you know, non
contemporary second hand, you

430
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,680
know, accounts?
How many are there, right?

431
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,360
So in all actuality, we're
dealing with somewhere between

432
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:19,640
what probably 13 and 15 accounts
right of. 9 Contemporary

433
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,440
accounts, nine, period 9.
OK, nine accounts.

434
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,920
OK.
Is it possible that there are

435
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,120
others?
Of course.

436
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,440
Because as we will see, he bore
witness of this event. 2000s

437
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,200
Sure, sure.
But it's not like there's like

438
00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:39,320
when you listen to some of the
pundits talk, it just makes it

439
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,560
sounds like there's there's crap
all over the place, right?

440
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,520
You'll have people just like
he's just riffing, so to speak,

441
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,080
right?
You know, the fact he's only

442
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,840
telling this a few times should
give us a clue into something,

443
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:55,760
right?
Which is careful.

444
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,800
He is careful with this.
He is not just haphazardly

445
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,080
throwing this out.
And we'll get to all the various

446
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,280
reasons why that is.
So you're going to love where

447
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,760
this is going.
So the four primary accounts,

448
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:13,880
1832 handwritten by Joseph and
we'll talk about the

449
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,600
circumstances surrounding that.
1835 when he had this very

450
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,600
interesting meeting with a guy
who thought he was Jesus. 1838

451
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,920
is the official account that he
wrote after the persecutions in

452
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,320
Missouri.
And all of these contexts, by

453
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,840
the way, have everything to do
with how they're written. 1842,

454
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,080
the famous Wentworth letter, the
13 articles of faith, he

455
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,320
included a brief account there.
They're all quite short except

456
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,560
for the 1838 where he talks
about everything.

457
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,880
Although now this is, it gets
really fun for me, the beauty of

458
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,160
all of these accounts and you
put them all together, we have a

459
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,960
version of the first vision that
most of us are unfamiliar with.

460
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:03,640
We, I mean, as is the case with
Joseph Smith, I don't think he

461
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,480
ever told us everything he knew.
In fact, he kept wishing that

462
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,520
the Saints were more prepared so
that he could reveal 100 times

463
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,920
more like about Section 76 bare
bones.

464
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:23,080
Now, here's a list of the
secondary accounts dating the So

465
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,000
the ones that are contemporary
date from 1840 to 1844.

466
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,160
They were in pamphlets and
journals.

467
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,600
And then 1879 through 1893, John
Taylor, George Buchanan, Edward

468
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,000
Stevens, and the Charles Walker
accounts of the first vision.

469
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,960
Again, all of those are that
same wonderful handy It's too

470
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:48,320
easy website.
So the first criticism is, see,

471
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,600
the church knew about all of
these accounts and they were

472
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,920
hiding them from people.
Reason they're hiding them from

473
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,240
people is because it would prove
the church is false.

474
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,960
There's this fair Latter Day
Saints, the website, there's

475
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,600
information, it's called Hiding
the Facts of the Church in Plain

476
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:14,600
Sight, and they list all of the
supposed secrets that the church

477
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,000
has been hiding and when and
where they were published in

478
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,840
official church magazines and
publications and books.

479
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:28,160
For example, this is my favorite
one in the improvement era,

480
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,960
which is the precursor of the
Ensign in April 1970.

481
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,920
Not before you were born, Dave.
I know, I know I was.

482
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,640
Well, not me, wasn't even
thought yet. 1970 was a good

483
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:46,600
year baby in the 19th.
This is way before the Internet

484
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,800
printed for the first time as a
report on 8 different accounts.

485
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,480
So at the time they only had
four of the second of the second

486
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,360
hand accounts, but they had the
four primaries.

487
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:04,680
OK OK on 1970 the church is
telling you we have we have 8

488
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,360
accounts.
Only gets better.

489
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,200
On page 12 of the publication
they give you this.

490
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:20,080
Oh.
OK, so if you're not watching.

491
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,720
Yeah.
I, I think I've seen this

492
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,360
before.
So this is something where they,

493
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:30,640
they, they kind of graph
different parts of the story

494
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,080
that he tells at certain parts
at certain times, right?

495
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,480
So at a.
Glance, you can see all 8

496
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,640
accounts of where they agree and
where they disagree on specific

497
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,760
subjects.
And what do you see?

498
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:51,680
They're very, very consistent.
Yeah.

499
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,000
And at no point, here's the
thing.

500
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:59,080
There are some that have details
that the others don't have, but

501
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:04,800
at no point do you see any of
them contradict one another.

502
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:11,880
The closest one, the closest one
that I've seen in my study of

503
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,120
accounts is in the 1832 version
that he had wrote.

504
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:21,560
He mentions not 2 personages
together.

505
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,360
He mentions one, but at two
different times that the Lord

506
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,640
appears and then he starts
talking about the Son of God.

507
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,080
So here's Joseph Smith by the
way.

508
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,960
He wasn't home.
He was stuck in this little town

509
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,840
in Illinois, waiting for Newell
K Whitney's leg to feel better

510
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,120
because he got broke in an
accident.

511
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:45,400
We'll read about that.
And for the first time probably

512
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,320
in his life, he had time on his
hands.

513
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,480
He wrote a letter to Emma.
I got nothing to do.

514
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,880
And so there was this Grove
behind the house.

515
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,400
And he'd go behind the house and
he'd pray and was focused on.

516
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,640
Here's one of the cool things
about Joseph.

517
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,160
He was always repenting and
according to the 1838 version,

518
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,000
he's not guilty of any great
sin, but he was humble, just

519
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,679
like in the First Division.
So here he is in 1832, going out

520
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,440
and praying and contemplating
his repentance.

521
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,560
And we think this is when this
1832 version was begun.

522
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,520
We'll see more reasons for that.
And so I could see him where.

523
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,040
And Joseph Smith was not a good
writer.

524
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,639
It was hard for him.
So here he is pinning, pinning

525
00:34:30,639 --> 00:34:32,679
this.
And it's not like a when we're

526
00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:34,960
riding today on the computer, we
can cut and paste and move

527
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:36,000
things around.
He couldn't do that.

528
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,719
And he was putting his
committing pen to paper for the

529
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,880
first time.
So if he accidentally forgot to

530
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,360
connect the appearance of the
1st and the second person, that

531
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,560
would be understandable.
And when you understand that all

532
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:54,639
nine of the other accounts
today, all eight of the other

533
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,880
accounts all talk about two
percentages, that's a very weak

534
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,440
argument.
Or the argument that he was

535
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,920
somehow a Trinitarian and the
Book of Mormon.

536
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,200
The very first version is full
of references to the Father and

537
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,200
the Son being separate beings.
None of that was that.

538
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:12,480
That doesn't hold any water at
all.

539
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,560
Now, there have been two other
graphs like this or charts that

540
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:24,200
were created more contemporarily
with all nine of the accounts

541
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:30,280
and even more checklists.
It's 2 pages of checklists but

542
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:31,640
it looks like the same as the
other.

543
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,040
You know, and it's interesting
that they never contradict,

544
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,800
right?
Like I have a friend who is

545
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,240
still a police officer out in
Idaho.

546
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:46,880
Oh, here we go.
This is good.

547
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,720
Yep.
Not going to say where, but he

548
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:52,760
said.
When we're interviewing

549
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,080
different people who've
witnessed the same thing, the

550
00:35:55,200 --> 00:36:00,840
only time we get a little
nervous and start asking deeper

551
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:06,280
questions is when it
contradicts, he says.

552
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:13,280
If if we expect to see people
putting different emphasis on

553
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,480
different things because of
different people, right?

554
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:23,880
And he said also he said he he
just used like a traffic

555
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,280
accident as an example.
He said he remembered when he

556
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,600
was a patrolman, there was an
accident and the person who was

557
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:39,280
like T boned the the one who
wasn't at fault while the

558
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:45,280
offender was right there would
wouldn't necessarily call out as

559
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:52,440
it being their fault until the
guy who was hit by the offender

560
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,800
was out of earshot of the
offender to be able to then he

561
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,760
would speak freely, right.
So what we realize it or not,

562
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,840
all of us on some level
understand to what audience were

563
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,280
talking right right.
And so as as, as this police

564
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:15,360
officer said, we don't worry
about stories that maybe have

565
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,800
things in it that somebody
else's didn't.

566
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,320
The only time we get really
concerned is when there's

567
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,200
conflicting or contradictory
evidence.

568
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,160
Yeah, and that's.
He said the absence of certain

569
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:35,880
aspects of the story, those
aren't contradictions, and so

570
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,600
you can't put them in that
school of thought.

571
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,160
Yeah, well, here's the other red
flag for me especially.

572
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,160
We're talking about a long term
recitation.

573
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:49,080
If it starts to sound rehearsed,
you can bet it probably is.

574
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,960
Right.
In Joseph Smith's case, it never

575
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,360
sounds rehearsed.
The details are essentially the

576
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,280
same, but like in the 1st and he
was writing it down.

577
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,960
The second one, as we will see,
Scribe was taking down notes as

578
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,320
he was sharing his experience in
a very one-on-one setting.

579
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,360
The story is the same, but it
comes out different and I just

580
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:14,000
just in terms of sentence
structure.

581
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,600
So he hasn't memorized any of
it.

582
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,120
He's talking about as if he's
reliving it each time.

583
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,120
It's really interesting to me
how that works.

584
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,800
So there are a number of
wonderful websites.

585
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,680
This one I have at the bottom
here, Pearl of Great Price,

586
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,080
central.org.
Oh my gosh, you go in there and

587
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:39,200
you look up First Vision.
It'll get 3 pages of incredibly

588
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:44,040
and incredible research, all
sided, but just boiled down so

589
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,200
you can digest it really quickly
and it makes beautiful sense.

590
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,040
These are the other checklists
of things that we'll talk about

591
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:57,280
those in greater detail now.
Here are the other publications

592
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,160
about this issue.
I just showed you the 1 from

593
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:03,240
1970.
They did one in 1985, one again

594
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:09,400
in 1996, in April 9 to January
96, again in April 96, all about

595
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,960
this stuff.
We now know of nine contemporary

596
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:19,080
reports from the prophet himself
or from those who personally

597
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,840
heard him relate his first
vision 9 And we've gone over

598
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,560
what they are.
That was in April 1996.

599
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,360
They went right through it for
everybody, didn't pull any

600
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,560
punches, not.
Exactly hiding that piece of

601
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,200
information.
So that that was just

602
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,160
publications, magazines.
They also included in the CES

603
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:44,960
manual in 2003, in two different
sections, in two referee

604
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:54,120
journals, one in 1968 way before
Eubarn, and another one in 68.

605
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:01,200
Then on this all fine print.
These are all books that were

606
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,440
published on the multiple
visions, the most recent being

607
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,680
2009.
The first being 1965.

608
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:14,160
That's almost as old as me.
Church is really not very good

609
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:15,920
at hiding stuff.
You know what I'm saying?

610
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,880
It's all been out there and the,
the, the reason people get

611
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:32,080
surprised is that they expect
the church to be responsible or

612
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,600
going out and actively teaching
them everything they would ever

613
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,000
have to know in their entire
lives.

614
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:44,160
That's not how God works.
God says knock and it shall be

615
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:45,680
opened.
You got to do the knocking.

616
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,280
And I've, I've a couple of
friends who have had the

617
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,720
deconstruction of their faith.
Why did the church lie to me?

618
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:57,160
And I said, why didn't you ever
ask the question?

619
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:03,080
The resources are out there.
There are anti Mormon resources

620
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,360
and there are apologetic
resources that are easy to

621
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,240
access.
Just Google it.

622
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,920
Why are you blaming?
Why are you blaming someone

623
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,920
else?
Something you don't know?

624
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,040
The church has its hands full
just teaching the principles of

625
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:22,880
the gospel and it's even trying
to and it's even trying to take

626
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,560
on all of this stuff.
If you'll dig a little bit, you

627
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:30,760
know, go ahead I.
Was going to say in, in the age

628
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,400
of the Internet, there's no more
secrets, right?

629
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:40,760
They're all there and it's up to
us now to go and to to look them

630
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,320
up, right.
And look, here's the other

631
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,720
thing.
You should want your information

632
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:54,600
curated for you, OK, period.
Whether you trust the sources

633
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,200
that it's coming from or not,
you should want to do your own

634
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,680
homework.
It is vitally important that you

635
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,400
do your own homework.
Oh, exactly.

636
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,360
I want to know both sides.
I don't like to be hoodwinked.

637
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,760
I don't like to be caught by
surprise.

638
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,760
I want to know what everybody
thinks so I can make the most

639
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,000
informed opinion.
Yeah.

640
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:16,920
So here are the primary
accounts.

641
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:19,920
You see a page from each of
them.

642
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:24,560
Those are the real things and
you can access access those

643
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,920
primary accounts at least on
these four reliable websites.

644
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,840
The official church website,
Church of Jesus Christ has all

645
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,320
of them there under Gospel
topics Joseph Smith Papers

646
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,000
project.
Not only can you read it, you

647
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,640
can read it from the original
manuscript if you want.

648
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,920
The one I mentioned before, I'll
just scripture teachings.org and

649
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,960
also the program price
central.org.

650
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:54,240
I mean there why would the
church publish them for for the

651
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,160
whole world to see if they're
trying to hide something?

652
00:42:56,720 --> 00:43:09,860
Clearly not Joseph Smith's
account of the first vision of

653
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:11,700
Godfather Jesus Christ is
recording.

654
00:43:11,700 --> 00:43:15,620
Joseph Smith history was
canonized as scripture on Sunday

655
00:43:15,620 --> 00:43:20,380
October 10th, 1880.
Quite late the the Saints were

656
00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:23,480
busy trying not to die.
Here's the other thing that

657
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:24,960
kills me.
Presidentism dictates.

658
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,120
Why didn't the Church bring all
of this stuff out back in the

659
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,280
1800s?
Because you're ignorant of

660
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,520
history.
They were trying not to die,

661
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:38,280
trying not to starve, trying not
to get shot and killed, trying

662
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,560
not to go to war with the United
States, trying not to have their

663
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:46,360
properties confiscated by the
government, trying to build

664
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:52,680
temples, trying to have any sort
of meaningful life way before

665
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,760
the Internet, way before the
luxury of having scholars and

666
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,320
money to pay for scholarship.
That really is a pretty recent

667
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,120
development in my life I that I
was able to witness down.

668
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,480
But while a lot of the Saints
are familiar with the canonical

669
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:13,200
account in our Joseph Smith
history drafted in 183018301839,

670
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,120
over the years historians have
identified three other first

671
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:19,520
hand accounts.
As with the four canonical

672
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,560
gospels in the New Testament
that narrate the life of

673
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,880
teachings of Jesus, 4 primary
accounts of the First Vision can

674
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,800
be read individually to
appreciate the nuance and the

675
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,240
subtle differences that they
communicate in each retelling,

676
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,840
or they can be read together in
harmony to appreciate them as

677
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,280
appreciate them as an organic
whole.

678
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,160
The primary accounts of Joseph
Smith's First Vision have been

679
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,800
conveniently collected and
digitized by the Joseph Smith

680
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,240
Papers Project.
So here's the first one.

681
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,840
This is the earliest account of
First Vision.

682
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,680
It's recorded in Joseph Smith's
own hand.

683
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,680
It is a deeply personal and
poignant narrative that is

684
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,480
couched in Joseph's quest to
find forgiveness.

685
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:10,400
So 1832, two years after the
Church has been organized, it's

686
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,000
still tiny.
And Joseph's, his perspective of

687
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,880
going into the Grove at age 14
had nothing to do with him

688
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,680
organizing a church.
No, that's not what he was going

689
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,840
to the Grove to find out.
He wanted to know his standing

690
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,280
with God.
And as God always does with

691
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,240
Joseph, Joseph asked a question.
God notably answers the

692
00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:35,880
question.
He gives him a whole lot to do

693
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:37,640
with it.
And that's what happened with

694
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,320
the First Vision.
Yeah, he's concerned about his

695
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,360
standing before God and then
what to do for his religious.

696
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,320
Life right?
Consider this and this is

697
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:52,040
historical.
He's 14 and he's worried about

698
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:56,840
his sins and he's no great
Sinner tells you what kind of

699
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,640
person he is.
It features an extended direct

700
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,080
quotation of what the Lord
instructed Joseph Smith in the

701
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,600
vision.
That's from that Protegate

702
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,400
Christ Central website.
Again, here are here's the

703
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,920
context for this in 1832.
There are five significant

704
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:19,080
records that have been that have
begun and we'll talk later.

705
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:23,680
Record keeping wasn't a thing,
not for Joseph Smith or his

706
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:24,920
family.
It was expensive.

707
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:26,480
You had to have writing utensils
and paper.

708
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,160
They had trouble getting enough
paper to translate the Book of

709
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:35,480
Mormon for coming out loud.
But by 1832, they were commanded

710
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,000
to keep records.
And we'll go over those

711
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,240
commandments in the Book of
Commandments in 1830.

712
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,360
So by 1832, they've trying to do
this.

713
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,480
They've collected revelations,
they have a, they have a letter

714
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,000
book, a minute book, and they
begun this history.

715
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:59,240
It's the first record of Joseph
Smith's past around this time,

716
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:02,760
in the summer of 1832, spring of
30, Joseph is commanded through

717
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,240
revelation that he receives in
March 1st to go to Missouri

718
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,160
council with the Saints there.
It's a difficult time in his

719
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,760
life.
His adopted son, Joseph Murdoch

720
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,880
had just passed away at the end
of March, about a week before he

721
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:19,640
actually used to go to Missouri.
This is their fourth loss.

722
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:22,640
He and Emma.
This is also the time, if I

723
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:28,240
recall correctly, when they were
near Kirtland, the attempt of

724
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:30,880
the mob that night in the middle
of the night and it was freezing

725
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,680
outside, they took he and
Sydney.

726
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,960
They were in different houses
nearby, took them outside and

727
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:43,160
tried to kill them.
Sydney Riggan was beaten so bad

728
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:44,600
that he was never the same after
that.

729
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:47,360
You know what happened to
Sydney?

730
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,000
He was so stalwart to begin
with.

731
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:51,720
He got brain damage from getting
beaten so badly.

732
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,720
Yeah, I've heard that before.
Yeah, it does seem to track

733
00:47:56,720 --> 00:48:01,040
right, because it's right after
that that Sydney is never quite

734
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,200
skip back to what he was exactly
right.

735
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:05,560
He was prone to fits of rage and
that sort of thing.

736
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:11,240
Joseph Smith, according to one
account in a book called Mormon

737
00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:16,840
Wars, did die and recounted how
his spirit left his body and he

738
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,680
could see his body and they were
going to do 2 things to him

739
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:23,280
there.
This is where they tried to pour

740
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,440
poison down his throat and cut
his lip.

741
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:29,160
So he had that scar on his lip
and and broke his tooth.

742
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,680
So he spoke with a little bit of
a whistle because of that.

743
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,040
It's also where he got the bald
spot on the back of his head.

744
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:37,640
In the struggle.
They ripped a patch of hair out

745
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,600
of the back of his head.
And there was a doctor there who

746
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,400
was going to emasculate him, who
was going to castrate him.

747
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:46,920
Oh.
Wow.

748
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,080
And the doctor chickened out the
last minute and wouldn't do it.

749
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,560
And then they tarred and
feathered him hot boiling tar,

750
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,080
which when it makes contact,
they, they strip you naked and

751
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:03,800
put hot boiling tar on you and
it gives you second, third

752
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,000
degree burns.
And then they put feathers in

753
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:10,480
it, which when it dries it,
they, they poke your skin.

754
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:18,240
So it's extremely painful and
and it gave yeah and even if

755
00:49:18,240 --> 00:49:19,720
you.
Were dying from being tarred and

756
00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:21,960
feathered right?
Because infection would set in

757
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,840
like it wasn't just meant for
humiliation.

758
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,280
Well, and it's worse in
Missouri, though one of one of

759
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,400
the ones that's especially
interesting to me.

760
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:37,760
There's this anecdotal story of
Emma Smith pushing Eliza our

761
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,520
Snow down the stairs, causing
her to miscarry Joseph's child.

762
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:51,200
There is a record of Eliza R
Snow admitting to someone, I

763
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,760
don't recall it exactly off the
top of my head, that she had

764
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,240
been raped so violently in
Missouri that she became barren

765
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:04,200
after that.
Yep, Yep, I've read the same

766
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,880
account.
I mean, there, there are these

767
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,000
and those sadly are common
things that because of the time,

768
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,680
the decency of the people, it
would never talk about anyway.

769
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:21,240
So Emma spent the night getting
the tar off of Joseph.

770
00:50:21,240 --> 00:50:23,040
He was supposed to give a sermon
the next morning.

771
00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:29,640
So he did, bleeding and scarred
up from the beating.

772
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:34,520
And yet some of the people in
the crowd that had gathered were

773
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:36,600
some of the people who had
attacked him the night before.

774
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:43,040
Sidney Riggan was left for dead
on a wood pile in the freezing

775
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,040
weather overnight.
So we're not we're not just

776
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,800
talking about good hearted
hazings here.

777
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:54,640
Right.
This is bad news, OK?

778
00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:00,040
Difficult time in his life.
Joseph Murica just passed away.

779
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,040
This happens because of an
incident that occurs in late

780
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:05,600
March when the mob burst into
the home.

781
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,720
Yeah, we read that they take him
into a field where they tar and

782
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:10,360
feather him.
They leave out the really bad

783
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:15,200
stuff, leave the door, the house
open and Murdoch had the

784
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,080
measles.
He's exposed and ends up dying a

785
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,880
couple days later.
This is their fourth child to

786
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,800
pass away in infancy.
It's a traumatic time in his

787
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,040
life when he's going to
Missouri.

788
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,720
He gets there in April 1832.
He stays in Missouri for about 3

789
00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:33,840
weeks and then returns to
Kirtland.

790
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:36,720
He's travelling with Sidney
Riggan, Newell K Whitney.

791
00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:39,760
As they're going along.
They're riding in a Stagecoach

792
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,720
and they're in Indiana.
Horses playing the stagecoat

793
00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:53,450
gets spooked and bolts.
Joseph is able to leap to

794
00:51:53,450 --> 00:51:56,610
safety.
Sidney Rigdon is able to leap to

795
00:51:56,610 --> 00:52:00,050
safety, but when Newell K
Whitney tries to jump, his pants

796
00:52:00,050 --> 00:52:03,850
get caught on the door and he
ends up breaking his leg in

797
00:52:03,850 --> 00:52:07,490
several different places, which
means that he can't travel any

798
00:52:07,490 --> 00:52:12,320
longer back to Ohio.
Joseph, even in the midst of

799
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,040
this kind of tumultuous time in
his life, decides that he can't

800
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:18,120
just abandoned Newell in this
village where Newell doesn't

801
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:25,920
know anyone you want to know.
Insight into his into who he

802
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:27,000
was.
There you go.

803
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:28,840
You want to know a person's
character?

804
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:30,520
How do they behave when no one
else is watching?

805
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:38,240
He wasn't doing this for anybody
but Newell, but that he needs to

806
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:40,800
stay with Newell.
So he sends Sydney on to Ohio

807
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:45,000
and he ends up staying in
Greenville IN this little town

808
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:49,360
with Newell K Wendy for about 6
weeks until he can travel again.

809
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,280
There's a Grove of trees that is
behind the town.

810
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,560
He tells Emma in a letter that
he writes to her in June of 1830

811
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,840
to do that because he has all
this time on his hands.

812
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:00,760
He doesn't.
He really doesn't know what to

813
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,240
do.
Can you relate to that?

814
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:06,800
I can't a little bit.
Yeah.

815
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:08,880
Yeah, I can't.
Hold this today.

816
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,400
What's wrong?
Yeah.

817
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:18,760
Yep.
So that's where that comes from.

818
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,640
It's a very introspective first
attempt.

819
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,360
Here's the 1835 account.
This recitation of the first

820
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,160
vision stems from Joseph Smith's
encounter with the eccentric

821
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,080
Robert Matthews in November
1835.

822
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:35,920
Joseph and Matthews discussed
religious matters during their

823
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,040
meeting as both claimed
prophetic authority.

824
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,360
Part of the conversation
included Joseph's description of

825
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:42,840
the coming forth of the Book of
Mormon.

826
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,960
Interestingly enough, he begins
the story of the coming forth of

827
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,280
the Book of Mormon with the
first vision.

828
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:56,640
This account includes the detail
not present in other accounts

829
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:02,840
that Joseph saw many angels in
his vision of the Father and the

830
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,760
Son.
This is what I love about these

831
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,880
other accounts.
Clearly, we do not know

832
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:15,640
everything that went on there.
Talk more about that.

833
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,720
The next two surviving accounts
of the first vision, other two,

834
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,600
they're essentially the same.
Count Warren Parrish was writing

835
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,920
down was recording their
conversation and then Joseph

836
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,360
Smith used that later.
So same account, although they

837
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:35,440
call it 2.
Matthews was also known as

838
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,160
Matthias the Prophet and Joshua
the Jewish minister.

839
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,880
He was an eccentric religious
figure in the 19th century

840
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:45,240
America.
At different times in his life

841
00:54:45,240 --> 00:54:49,480
he claimed that he was God or
that he was the reincarnation of

842
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,880
the New Testament apostle.
Matthias and Joseph Smith is

843
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,560
giving him some time.
In November, Matthias came to

844
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:00,800
Ohio and sought out Joseph
Smith.

845
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:04,000
While the two conversed, Joseph
described his own spiritual

846
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:05,840
history.
Warren Parrish, one of the

847
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,040
scribes, was present and
recorded an account of the

848
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,320
meeting that he later copied
into Joseph's journal.

849
00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:15,920
This, interestingly enough, is
the first time we hear him.

850
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:19,600
Joseph use the word first to
describe the Vision.

851
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:24,880
It only becomes the first vision
in interpreted memory when

852
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:27,640
subsequent subsequent
experiences allow you to give

853
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:32,440
that meaning to it.
OK.

854
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:38,000
So if he was this conniving
charlatan, he would have called

855
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:39,720
the first vision in the
beginning because he would

856
00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:41,320
already have planned out he's
going to have these other

857
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,800
visions.
When he had the first vision, he

858
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,920
had no idea it was the vision.
Yeah, it.

859
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,240
Wouldn't just been the vision,
right?

860
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:56,120
Exactly.
And now 183515 years later, it

861
00:55:56,120 --> 00:56:00,800
was the first because he has had
subsequent visions, right?

862
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,240
Pretty interesting to me.
This website.

863
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,640
This is probably the most
enjoyable podcast I heard about

864
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,600
it.
It was the most scholarly, the

865
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,520
most well put together.
Joseph Smith Papers project,

866
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:18,000
Joseph papers.org.
It's a six episode podcast and

867
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,640
that's where I got the
information about the the Sacred

868
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:24,440
Grove and everything else.
And any guesses how many people

869
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:26,120
visit the Sacred Grove every
year?

870
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:31,480
Between 1 and 200,000 people.
A lot.

871
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:38,680
That's a lot.
Now here we have the 1838

872
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:45,720
account, the most famous.
This recitation opened what

873
00:56:45,720 --> 00:56:49,280
later evolved into the six
volume history of the Church and

874
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,360
was canonized in the Pearl Great
Prize written at a time.

875
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:55,200
And the persecution of the
Saints in Missouri was fresh on

876
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:59,640
the prophet's mind.
He's in a very different place

877
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,760
now.
The tone of this retelling is

878
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:08,160
more defensive and apologetic
and dare I say, angry, and

879
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,200
emphasizes the theme of
opposition against Joseph

880
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:14,840
personally as well as his
efforts to restore the Church of

881
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,880
Jesus Christ.
Gee, do you think it's going to

882
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,160
sound a little bit different in
1838?

883
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:22,440
He says sarcastically.
Oh.

884
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,640
Absolutely.
And, and look, I, I want to say

885
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:31,000
this too, this isn't a time
where Joseph, quite frankly, is

886
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:32,840
going back and looking at a lot
of things.

887
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:34,760
I think it's during the same
time period.

888
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:38,800
They're not finished until 1840,
but he's still going back and

889
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,840
making revisions to the Book of
Mormon, right.

890
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,720
Oh, yeah.
And so this is keeping in with,

891
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:50,960
with what seems to be a time
period for him that he's like

892
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,240
refining all these things that
he has saw, right.

893
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:58,400
And I, I want to make this, I, I
want to help maybe paint some

894
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,200
context here to this time period
because there's this other

895
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:06,360
school of thought that says,
well, he should just know it by

896
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,200
heart from the beginning
because.

897
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:12,280
We'll talk about that too.
But it's spirit to spirit and

898
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:17,120
all these things.
And I'm like, if anybody's been

899
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:24,640
in a truly horrifically, and I
use the word horrifically on

900
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:29,720
purpose here, time in your life
where you were horrifically

901
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:34,160
busy, right?
And you are, it feels like

902
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:37,360
everything's on fire all the
time.

903
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:43,520
You don't necessarily have the
gift of being able to sit back

904
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:47,000
and look at what you did just
last week because you're on to

905
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,320
the next fire, right?
You got to put out whatever it

906
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:52,800
is that's in front of you that
is demanding your attention.

907
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:57,640
Now, right.
Yeah, Yeah. 1838 eighteen 40s

908
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:01,400
you're you are in a different.
I can't remember exactly when

909
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,600
he's in Nauvoo.
I want to say he was there by

910
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,040
38.
I could be wrong, but at at any

911
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:11,080
rate, there does come points in
his life where he gets to be

912
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,240
able to sit down and, you know,
maybe he reads the Book of

913
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,680
Mormon and goes, you know, I
know that's what I said, but

914
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:20,000
that's probably not a great
description of it or more.

915
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:24,000
Likely, but we find out his
wrote it down wrong.

916
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,320
Right.
His understanding has changed,

917
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:28,480
right?
Or EB.

918
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:33,120
Or EB Grand and heaven, heaven
forbid, before the computer made

919
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,000
mistakes.
Yeah, right.

920
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,280
Exactly.
So there's all these things here

921
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:41,360
that Joseph in this time period
has the time now to look back on

922
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,400
and go, OK, let's let's refine
these things a little bit.

923
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,760
Here's what's crazy, though.
He seems to be getting more done

924
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:51,080
in the Nauvoo period, but he's
never been busier.

925
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:56,080
He's the mayor, he's the
Marshall, you know, he's the

926
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,760
Colonel or whatever, the Namu
Legion.

927
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:07,800
He's in court both as a judge
and also as a litigant, almost

928
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,520
every month at least.
And their church is growing.

929
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:18,760
And then there's the translation
of the Bible, the JST, and I

930
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,800
think in my studies of that, I
just want to point this out.

931
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:30,160
We are rightly preoccupied with
the G, the JST translation

932
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:34,880
itself that the church acquired
from the RLDS for a penny so

933
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:37,840
many years ago.
So we could include it in the

934
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:41,880
text of the latter day St.
publication of the Bible, the

935
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:46,600
Holy Bible.
That was awesome, but the Lord

936
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,600
was adamant he kept after Joseph
Smith.

937
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,560
You need to get back to work on
the JST.

938
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,400
Why was God commanding him to
work and work work on the JST

939
01:00:57,400 --> 01:01:02,600
when the church, the LDS church,
had nobody but the RLDS had any

940
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:07,920
access to it until 1979.
What we're missing is what God

941
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:13,080
was wanting him to do what what
was the byproduct, which I

942
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,880
ultimately think was the primary
product of the JST.

943
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:21,520
It forced Joseph to go into the
scriptures and what was the

944
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:29,720
result A low book of Moses that
alone would justify that work It

945
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,520
as is the case with me.
People say how often do you

946
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:36,240
receive revelation and I tell
them was a priest of meeting

947
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:39,160
with Dan.
I said every single time I dive

948
01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:43,560
into the Scriptures, I'm I'm
receiving inspiration about

949
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:46,880
something that I'm studying.
The other thing people don't

950
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:51,080
realize the majority of the
sections of the Doctrine and

951
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,840
Covenants or the byproduct of
his translating the Holy Bible.

952
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:01,480
Wow.
That's to me, that's the

953
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:03,720
greatest single blessing.
The JST is great, that's

954
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:08,200
important.
But it it, it dwarfed my

955
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,680
comparison of the revelation
that was the byproduct of that

956
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:13,280
study.
OK, so.

957
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:15,560
Hold on one second.
There's a few things that I

958
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:18,040
think are are worth fleshing out
here a little bit.

959
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,480
One is, is what you said about
the Nauvoo period, right?

960
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:25,560
He's never been busier, but he's
getting more done, right?

961
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:30,640
And, and, and I want to be
careful here because I'm not

962
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:36,160
trying to lessen any events
within the Restoration.

963
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,720
They're all vitally important.
Yeah.

964
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:44,320
However, if you want to see peak
Joseph Smith, right, you go to

965
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:49,120
Nauvoo, because it's in Nauvoo
that he is functioning on a

966
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,080
different level.
He leaves.

967
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:55,000
He leaves Liberty Jail, a
changed man.

968
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:59,120
Yes.
And and look, we don't have

969
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:06,360
record other than 1/21 and and
another section of what was

970
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:09,920
going on in liberty at those
times, but one an incredible

971
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:11,520
questioning.
Yeah.

972
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,640
Given the depth of questioning
that Joseph gives to the Lord,

973
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:19,760
that's not a one time event.
These are things he's sitting

974
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:23,240
on.
So I'm guessing that in the

975
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:27,480
depths of his misery in Liberty
Jail, something happens to him.

976
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:33,320
What that is, I'm, I don't know,
maybe you know, can, but he

977
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:39,280
leaves Liberty Jail and he goes
to Nauvoo a different a

978
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,520
different man, so to speak.
He is he is now about to start

979
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:48,520
operating on a much different
level than he has previously.

980
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,280
And so that's that's peak Joseph
Smith.

981
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:53,320
I'll, I'll tell you what I think
happened.

982
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,800
That was his Gethsemane.
That was his, that was his forty

983
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:01,560
days in the wilderness.
All great servants of Lord have

984
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:06,360
had to pass through that
Gethsemane, for a lack of a

985
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:09,320
better term.
This comes to Jesus moment and

986
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:12,920
of course he's had numerous
ones, but this, this is where

987
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:17,680
Jesus said to him, hey, you're
not as bad as Job, yet you still

988
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:23,480
have friends, right?
Joseph as Jesus on the cross, my

989
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:25,440
God, my God, why has to forsaken
me.

990
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:29,920
This is what Joseph Smith was
crying out and what we forget

991
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,480
about Joseph Smith, yes, he's
the prophet of the Restoration,

992
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,560
but he's still an individual
working out his salvation.

993
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,600
And the purpose of the plan of
salvation is for us to

994
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:45,320
experience the bitter and the
sweet so that we can have true

995
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,320
joy.
And we can only comprehend joy

996
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:50,760
to the extent that we comprehend
sorrow.

997
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:55,240
I'm not breaking any news here.
We live in spiritually perilous

998
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:56,880
times.
It seems like danger is all

999
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,840
around us or our family
spiritually all the time.

1000
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:02,240
But our God hasn't left us
defenseless.

1001
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:06,520
We read in Ephesians chapter 6
verse 17 and take the helmet of

1002
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:08,960
salvation and the sword of the
spirit, which is the word of

1003
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,200
God.
So in our spiritual battles, the

1004
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,560
scriptures are our sword.
But just like real swords, not

1005
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,520
all Canon of scripture are made
equal.

1006
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:18,880
You need to make sure that
you're entering the battle with

1007
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,200
the right gear.
With that thought in mind, Drew

1008
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:24,000
Brownie and others have been
working on a project to bring

1009
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:26,640
you what is now being called the
Restored version of the

1010
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,280
Scriptures.
So what is the restored version

1011
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,720
of the Scriptures?
The restored version is the most

1012
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:34,600
accurate, exhaustive,
comfortable to read, a triple

1013
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,800
combination ever made.
It was designed to honor Joseph

1014
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,480
Smith's revelatory words and
edits through clean and accurate

1015
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,680
Joseph approved texts.
The restored version contains

1016
01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:48,400
each book found in the modern
LDS triple combination that is

1017
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,080
the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine
and Covenants, and the Pearl.

1018
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:55,000
Great price, except it has
Joseph's original inspired text

1019
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:58,600
and an easy to read format.
It restored the Lectures on

1020
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:00,880
Faith, which were removed in
1921.

1021
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:05,320
It adds an additional 87
uncanonized revelations of

1022
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:08,960
Joseph Smith, as well as 33
revelations received by Brigham

1023
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,240
Young, John Taylor, and Wilfred
Woodruff and other members of

1024
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:15,040
the Quorum of the 12.
Each copy of the restored

1025
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:18,800
version is built to last.
These scriptures look good, feel

1026
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,040
comfortable, and are bound to
last.

1027
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,560
The restored version uses cover
material that is ideal for high

1028
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:29,040
quality books that is both hard
wearing and soft and should

1029
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:32,880
handle many years of use.
It has beautiful gold and silver

1030
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:36,680
gilded edges.
It has sturdy, flexible binding,

1031
01:06:36,680 --> 01:06:39,760
making it so the book may
comfortably and safely be laid

1032
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:43,000
on a desk.
It has reliable paper that is

1033
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,440
very thin, yet sturdy and thick
enough that it's hard to see

1034
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,640
through, and comes with marking
ribbons so that you never lose

1035
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:52,160
your reading place.
Each copy of the restored

1036
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:54,960
version are built with the
intent of lasting for years and

1037
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,800
years, just like the LDS
versions of the triple

1038
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,760
combination.
You might be asking yourself,

1039
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:03,360
what are the benefits of owning
your own copy of the restored

1040
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:06,120
version of the scriptures?
Well, how's this for starters?

1041
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:08,920
Number one, the spiritual
significance.

1042
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:12,280
The restored version contains
every known revelation of Joseph

1043
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,240
Smith as well as those of his
first successors, the historical

1044
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:18,720
significance.
While the foundational text for

1045
01:07:18,720 --> 01:07:21,720
the Restored Version is the
latest edition of each book of

1046
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:25,080
Scripture that Joseph approved,
the Restored Version carefully

1047
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:29,200
documents through footnotes,
italicized texts, every

1048
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,400
substantive change made by
Joseph or his editing committee,

1049
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,000
making the Restored Version a
truly original set of

1050
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,400
Scriptures.
Formatting Significance The

1051
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,760
Restored Version contains no
columns, no cumbersome Croft

1052
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:46,840
references, and no paragraph
breaks at every verse just like

1053
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:50,000
the original, and has been
improved with many verse numbers

1054
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,440
in the paragraphs, which provide
a smooth, seamless reading

1055
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,200
experience that makes it easy to
lose track of time while reading

1056
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:00,960
and makes it easier to see the
large, larger narrative within

1057
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:04,400
the Scriptures.
It is also the first original

1058
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:08,000
editions published that can be
used with study guys since

1059
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:11,080
almost all of the other
originals don't have verses in

1060
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:13,280
it.
The restored version offers a

1061
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:16,560
pure offers pure doctrine and
the most historically

1062
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,960
transparent Mormon triple
combination ever made with a

1063
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:23,600
modern format that provides for
a smooth, seamless and spiritual

1064
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:26,319
read.
Now to get your copy today, just

1065
01:08:26,319 --> 01:08:30,840
go to www.restoredscriptures.com
or click the link in this

1066
01:08:30,840 --> 01:08:33,319
episode show notes.
Again, that is

1067
01:08:33,319 --> 01:08:37,439
www.restoredscriptures.com or
click the link in this episode

1068
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:40,760
show notes and order your copy
today and arm you and your

1069
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:43,479
family with the word of God.
Now let's get back to our

1070
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:45,040
conversation.
Isn't that crazy?

1071
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:49,200
Isn't that crazy?
That's that's beautiful, right?

1072
01:08:49,399 --> 01:08:52,800
But that's one of the things
that appeals, I believe, for

1073
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:58,040
those of us who have who loved
the Prophet Joseph, it's because

1074
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:01,160
we recognize in him something in
ourselves.

1075
01:09:01,319 --> 01:09:04,279
Right now he's operating on a
different level, but there are

1076
01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:08,720
times in certain parts of his
writings where you get the

1077
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:11,399
feeling he's searching for the
Savior as much as anybody

1078
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:15,520
else's, of course.
That was a hello first vision.

1079
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:17,319
That was the whole thing for
him.

1080
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:21,439
Yep, absolutely.
And then what you said about the

1081
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:26,760
Scriptures here, about gaining
revelation, who often can I

1082
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:31,600
think that that we look at
spiritual giants and we say we

1083
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:34,399
could never attain to that,
right?

1084
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:38,240
But as I've been able to get
glimpses into the life of

1085
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:41,760
spiritual giants, do you not
want to know what separates them

1086
01:09:42,319 --> 01:09:44,720
from me?
It's not the big things, right?

1087
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,640
It's if they're not going out
usually and doing Herculean kind

1088
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:53,160
of spiritual tasks, what they're
doing is they're making a bunch

1089
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:56,640
of little decisions that I am
not, right.

1090
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:00,520
Let me give you an example.
I go to the gym, not going to

1091
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:03,960
lie, time to time.
I like good Hard Rock music to,

1092
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:05,600
you know, get things moving,
right?

1093
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:06,400
Get right.
Yeah.

1094
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:09,560
Or throwing some weight around
the spiritual giant.

1095
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:16,240
He's listening to some great
work on on Audible, right?

1096
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:17,280
Now maybe.
Come on.

1097
01:10:17,480 --> 01:10:19,560
Come on.
Right.

1098
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:23,200
I mean, but no, really though,
it's those small things.

1099
01:10:24,000 --> 01:10:27,320
And so part of those small
things are just being

1100
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:31,440
disciplined enough to get into
your scriptures because they do

1101
01:10:31,440 --> 01:10:34,120
put you into a revelatory state,
right?

1102
01:10:34,280 --> 01:10:37,960
And that's what I want.
And, and how many of us are

1103
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:41,760
checking all the big boxes?
But then the smaller boxes we're

1104
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:45,240
kind of ignoring, right?
We're like, I'll do anything,

1105
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,320
Lord, really.
Would you read your scriptures

1106
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:49,560
every night like I asked?
You know what?

1107
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:51,880
You know what else is?
It's consistency.

1108
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:56,280
It's easy for a person to choose
a good thing once, but to choose

1109
01:10:56,280 --> 01:11:01,840
it over and over and over again,
repeatedly, that is the true

1110
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:04,800
expression of your will.
Yes.

1111
01:11:05,480 --> 01:11:07,720
How bad do you want it?
Do you want it bad enough to

1112
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,400
make it a part of your life?
And so and whether you're, no

1113
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:13,880
matter what direction you're
going in, those day by day

1114
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:18,040
decisions are an expression of
your will, of what you want to

1115
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:19,600
do.
Absolutely.

1116
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:25,080
And here's the cool thing.
What Joseph Smith had to acquire

1117
01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:29,520
by revelation, we can acquire by
cracking the Scriptures and

1118
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,680
reading it, right?
You know what I'm saying?

1119
01:11:33,000 --> 01:11:36,760
Like what Abraham and Moses had
to learn about the eternities.

1120
01:11:37,600 --> 01:11:40,080
We can get it by getting our
free copy of the triple

1121
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:44,080
combination and reading it and
having that confirmation to us

1122
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:47,640
blow our minds.
You know we got that cheat code

1123
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:55,280
so.
In the wake of a long string of

1124
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,800
violent persecution, Joseph
Sidney Riggan and Clerk George W

1125
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:03,840
Robinson opened the history like
this, and we've read this owing

1126
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:06,400
to the many reports.
So this is how the 1838 version

1127
01:12:06,400 --> 01:12:09,480
begins, owing to the many
reports which have been in

1128
01:12:09,480 --> 01:12:13,200
circulation by evil disposed and
designing persons in relation to

1129
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:15,680
the rise and progress of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter

1130
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:19,400
Day Saints, all of which have
been designed by the authors

1131
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:24,400
thereof to militate against its
character as a Church and its

1132
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:28,720
progress in the world.
I have been induced to write

1133
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:32,960
this history to disabuse the
public mind and put all

1134
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:36,800
inquirers after truth in
possession of the facts as they

1135
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:40,000
have transpired in relation both
to myself and the Church.

1136
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:44,320
Very direct.
Well, there's a a, a

1137
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:47,960
stylistician is what they're
called, and their academic

1138
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:51,320
training is to be able to
adjudicate a person's intent by

1139
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:53,960
how and what they write.
It's a beautiful thing.

1140
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:54,920
We'll read about that in a
second.

1141
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:58,120
Joseph wanted to put his story
out there.

1142
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,160
He wanted to be on record of
what's going on.

1143
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:03,360
So as yet he has no official
account.

1144
01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:08,720
His first attempt in 32 is
casual one in 35.

1145
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:12,600
Joseph is very direct and
determined in the language he

1146
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:14,160
uses.
After recounting division, he

1147
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:17,280
writes, and this is where we
first see this.

1148
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:22,760
For I had seen a vision, I knew
it, and I knew that God knew it,

1149
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:26,840
and I could not deny it.
Neither dared I do it.

1150
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:36,400
Very straight forward, almost
playing some of the things

1151
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,080
related to this and how he
describes it.

1152
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:43,080
Very interesting and distinct
from what was going on at the

1153
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:45,040
time.
That Joseph and the Saints had

1154
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:47,280
experienced such violent
persecution around the time that

1155
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:51,240
he wrote this history helps
explain the defiant tone.

1156
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,680
He was saying that no amount of
persecution would cause him to

1157
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:57,080
deny the visions and revelations
he had to add.

1158
01:13:58,040 --> 01:14:01,120
So this is the year of his life
that sandwiches the writing of

1159
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:03,920
his history.
He starts writing the account

1160
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:08,400
that we have in the Pearl Grate
Prize before he gets captured

1161
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:10,640
and put in jail, and he finishes
it.

1162
01:14:10,640 --> 01:14:12,400
Shortly after he gets out of
jail.

1163
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:19,000
I move to what is now Nauvoo.
We also CC regret in the 1938

1164
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:22,160
account that Joseph is
recognizing just how important

1165
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:28,320
now the visions and revelations
he experienced in the 1820s were

1166
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:31,960
to the establishment and
progress of the Church since

1167
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:37,800
1830.
At one level, they were personal

1168
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:41,840
spiritual experiences for him,
but he now realizes they were

1169
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:44,480
more than that.
They weren't just for him.

1170
01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:49,000
And so we begin to see that the
visions of Joseph Smith, the

1171
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:52,600
coming forth of the Book of
Mormon, the first vision is

1172
01:14:52,600 --> 01:14:55,720
ultimately linked, intimately
linked to the rise of the church

1173
01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:58,280
itself.
And we move away from Joseph

1174
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:02,600
Smith seeing the first vision as
a personal redemptive narrative

1175
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:05,040
to a beginning of the church
itself.

1176
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:07,400
Can you see how he's he didn't
get that at first.

1177
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:12,880
How could he was 14?
And, and, and that's just what I

1178
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:19,400
was going to say here, Ken, is
that when when we look at, at

1179
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:23,560
his previous accounts, those are
personal, right?

1180
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:25,720
He's writing this in his
journal.

1181
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:31,200
He's maybe to Emma, the second
one, he is talking to another

1182
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:36,880
guy who's maybe pressing him on
his quote credentials, right?

1183
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,480
And and those are very
interpersonal kind of things.

1184
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:45,040
This is the first time that I
think Joseph understands or he

1185
01:15:45,040 --> 01:15:48,680
has some inclination, probably
due to the fact that he's been

1186
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:51,960
under so much persecution along
with the people that follow him,

1187
01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:54,800
that he's like, we're going to
get this out.

1188
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:57,040
Everyone's going to know what
has happened here.

1189
01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:05,360
And, and so you would expect
that 1838 account to maybe be

1190
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:09,680
more deliberate in how he's
explaining what he saw, right?

1191
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:12,920
Because the other accounts make
it sound like it's way more

1192
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:16,320
about how it, and this is my
take away, correct me if I'm

1193
01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:19,840
wrong here, but as I've read the
other accounts, the other

1194
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:25,480
accounts, the more personal ones
prior to 38 seem to be much more

1195
01:16:25,480 --> 01:16:27,720
focused on how it made Joseph
feel.

1196
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:31,520
What you know it was Joseph
saying this is what it did for

1197
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:34,400
me, right?
Or this, yes, Simply put, me and

1198
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:39,640
his friend counts one and then
this one he's saying ends of the

1199
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:42,160
earth hear it.
God has appeared to man again,

1200
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:44,400
right?
It's a proclamation.

1201
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:49,640
It's a different thing entirely.
So in his earlier years, he saw

1202
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:53,720
the first vision as a beginning
to his personal faith.

1203
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:59,840
Now, in 1838, he's seeing it.
Oh my gosh, that was the

1204
01:16:59,840 --> 01:17:02,600
beginning of the restoration of
the Kingdom of God on earth.

1205
01:17:03,080 --> 01:17:05,720
Now he recognizes it wasn't just
about him.

1206
01:17:06,480 --> 01:17:09,160
Beautiful.
Let's see, in some ways Joseph

1207
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:11,640
is saying this no longer belongs
to just me.

1208
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:14,760
Exactly, which was hard for him
to do.

1209
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:18,360
So we move away from the Joseph
from Joseph Smith seeing the

1210
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:20,520
First Vision as a person or
redemptive narrative to the

1211
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:24,960
beginning of the Church itself.
The Joseph Smith is receiving

1212
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,600
not just messages of your sins
have forgiven you, but Joseph

1213
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:33,600
don't join any churches.
You need to form your own and I

1214
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:38,880
think that that's important to
see early on, Joseph Smith asked

1215
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:42,120
about his visions in a more
personal talked about his

1216
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:44,440
visions in a in a more personal
manner.

1217
01:17:44,920 --> 01:17:48,320
Then by the end of his life, his
early visions are linked to the

1218
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:51,160
rise, the progress of the church
itself.

1219
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:56,960
Let me interject here.
There's a lot of information on

1220
01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:01,160
these slides, websites and
direct quotes.

1221
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:06,920
And as always, I would love this
is just APDF format.

1222
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:11,600
I can e-mail it or message it,
attach it on Facebook to anybody

1223
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:13,120
who wants it.
I've done it before.

1224
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:16,440
If you want this slideshow, it's
yours.

1225
01:18:16,680 --> 01:18:19,560
Just contact me and I'll attach
it to my reply.

1226
01:18:20,440 --> 01:18:24,080
So if you're interested in that,
because it's just, I mean, there

1227
01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:27,600
are hundreds and hundreds of
pages of stuff that we can draw.

1228
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:34,360
On that, it blew my mind.
So send and everybody out there,

1229
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:37,960
send me the e-mail first.
I don't want Ken's e-mail box

1230
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:40,440
blown up, so e-mail me and I'll
get it.

1231
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:42,840
Oh, it hasn't happened.
It's been very reasonable.

1232
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:47,920
It's fine, thank you.
Which brings us to the last

1233
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:53,240
first hand account 1842, part of
the Wentworth Letter.

1234
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:58,760
Published in 1842 in the Times
and Seasons.

1235
01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:02,120
The account was prepared at the
request of Chicago newspaper man

1236
01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:05,120
John Wentworth.
It was contextualized as part of

1237
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:07,840
a larger sketch of the rise,
progress, persecution and faith

1238
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:10,720
of the Latter Day Saints.
Peppered with Latin phrases

1239
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:14,360
carefully crafted for the wide
public consumption of drawing

1240
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:17,400
language from previously
published records, this account

1241
01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:20,200
of the first vision shows the
prophets evolving literary

1242
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:22,280
style.
He became a better writer and

1243
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:25,120
speaker.
He got better and reliance on

1244
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:29,240
clerks who helped him
reformulate his narrative in

1245
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:33,520
later years.
Here's the context.

1246
01:19:34,480 --> 01:19:37,080
He got this letter from John
Wentworth, the owner of a

1247
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:41,560
prominent Chicago newspaper.
Wentworth wrote on behalf of a

1248
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:44,600
friend who was writing a book on
the history of New Hampshire,

1249
01:19:44,600 --> 01:19:47,320
where Joseph grew up.
The friend was considering

1250
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:49,560
including information on the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter

1251
01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:52,480
Day Saints in that book.
Accordingly, Wentworth asked

1252
01:19:52,480 --> 01:19:54,320
Joseph to supply a summary of
the doctrine history of the

1253
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:57,600
Latter Day Saints.
Ironically, he never included it

1254
01:19:57,600 --> 01:20:00,320
in his book.
He decided to stop at 1819.

1255
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:07,480
But thankfully and in the mind
and purposes of God, we have the

1256
01:20:07,480 --> 01:20:11,080
13 Articles of Faith and his
last account.

1257
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:14,560
Joseph obliged, wrote a brief
letter and reply.

1258
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:16,160
He included an account of First
Vision.

1259
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:21,360
Congruent with the 1838 account,
but the tone was very different.

1260
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:26,680
Now you have an influential of
influential opinion makers

1261
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:31,360
asking you kindly if you would
provide your own story for them.

1262
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:37,240
And so Joseph Smith responds so
much less defiantly in his 1842

1263
01:20:37,240 --> 01:20:40,440
letter to John Webber.
So this is like the high point

1264
01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:44,000
of Nauvoo in any case.
So he's pretty good place

1265
01:20:44,440 --> 01:20:46,200
relative to the rest of his
life.

1266
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:51,000
We do not have the letter Joseph
wrote to Wentworth.

1267
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:54,840
It was destroyed, apparently,
but Joseph published it in the

1268
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:58,160
Times and Seasons.
So we have a March 1842 printing

1269
01:20:58,160 --> 01:20:59,680
of it.
And it tells the same story.

1270
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:03,320
But it tells it in terms that
are not angry and that may have

1271
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:06,120
been consciously or
unconsciously shaped by public

1272
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:10,240
relations concerns.
So instead, for example, of the

1273
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,560
Lord saying the professors of
religion are corrupt and all

1274
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:18,560
their creeds are an abomination.
My Barber, good evangelical

1275
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:20,920
Christian man, he gets after me
for that stuff.

1276
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:24,960
I was saying, you know why?
I said there's a recent study

1277
01:21:24,960 --> 01:21:26,960
that shows that Latter Day
Saints are more supportive of

1278
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:28,960
other Christians than other
Christians are of them.

1279
01:21:30,040 --> 01:21:32,000
He looks at me with this smile
and he says yeah, but don't

1280
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:36,440
forget you guys started it.
He's not wrong.

1281
01:21:37,440 --> 01:21:40,400
I was like, yeah, you're right.
Yeah, we sure did.

1282
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:43,040
He's not wrong, Ken.
He's not wrong at all.

1283
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:49,400
We had a good laugh over that.
Excuse me for a moment.

1284
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:54,280
Get a drink here in 1842, he
says.

1285
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:58,520
The Lord told me they were all
believing in incorrect

1286
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:01,840
doctrines.
That's a lot more palatable than

1287
01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,960
abomination.
A little softer, a little more

1288
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:07,560
digestible to a non Latter Day
St.

1289
01:22:08,480 --> 01:22:11,720
He's no dummy.
Wentworth's friend ultimately

1290
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:14,040
ended his history of New
Hampshire in 1819 did not

1291
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:15,520
include the Latter Day Saints in
that book.

1292
01:22:16,480 --> 01:22:18,520
Had Joseph not published the
letter in the time of the

1293
01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:20,720
seasons, that account may have
been lost to history.

1294
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:29,920
In summation, on the Program
Price Central website, the

1295
01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:33,960
183538 and 42 accounts of the
First Vision were copied or

1296
01:22:33,960 --> 01:22:36,520
otherwise repurposed on a few
occasions and Joseph Smith's

1297
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:39,360
lifetime attesting to their
importance.

1298
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:41,800
As one historian remark, Joseph
Smith.

1299
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:47,960
Joseph Smith's First Vision may
be the best documented theophany

1300
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:51,880
in history.
I want to say that again.

1301
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:57,480
First, theophany is an account
of God appearing to man.

1302
01:22:58,440 --> 01:23:03,280
There are many in history.
Joseph Smith's is the best

1303
01:23:03,680 --> 01:23:09,560
documented theophany in history
because we have four first hand

1304
01:23:09,560 --> 01:23:14,680
accounts and then we have
numerous 5 second hand accounts.

1305
01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:21,400
Contemporary Joseph Smith worked
hard to document his experience

1306
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:23,800
in the growth and scholars have
worked hard to raise awareness

1307
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:26,120
of his several accounts.
That is true.

1308
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:31,040
So rather than feel threatened
or bothered by the existence of

1309
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:34,400
multiple accounts of the first
vision, I don't understand that.

1310
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:36,000
First of all, it's a big nothing
burger to me.

1311
01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:39,800
Latter Day Saints can write and
rejoice that they have access to

1312
01:23:39,800 --> 01:23:44,200
additional records that
complement the canonical account

1313
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:46,720
in the Pearl of Great Price.
My favorite part of tonight's

1314
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:50,600
discussion is when we talked
about those aspects that add to

1315
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:54,720
our understanding of that event.
As is true with all books of

1316
01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:57,880
Scripture, the First Vision
accounts were created in

1317
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:01,720
specific historical settings
that shape what they say and how

1318
01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:04,440
they say it.
That's actually evidence that

1319
01:24:04,440 --> 01:24:11,240
it's true, that it's not just a
regurgitated, memorized plot.

1320
01:24:12,240 --> 01:24:16,000
He's reliving it.
Each of the accounts of Joseph

1321
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:17,560
Smith's first vision has its own
history.

1322
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:20,440
Each was created in
circumstances that determined

1323
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:23,960
how it was remembered and
communicated, and thus how it

1324
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:26,080
was transmitted to us.
That's human.

1325
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:29,040
That's how memory works.
Each account has gaps and

1326
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:32,280
emissions.
Each adds detail and richness.

1327
01:24:32,280 --> 01:24:35,720
And I will add here, not a
single one of them tells us

1328
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:39,560
everything that happened, right,
Which should not surprise

1329
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:42,880
anybody who has studied the
teachings of Joseph Smith,

1330
01:24:42,880 --> 01:24:45,680
Joseph said as.
Much right as you pointed out at

1331
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:49,640
the beginning, he tells you.
I can't tell you 100th part of

1332
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:53,280
what I really know.
Oh yeah, and he wanted to tell

1333
01:24:53,280 --> 01:24:56,560
everybody, but he knew we were
ready.

1334
01:24:57,360 --> 01:24:59,080
So here we come to the secondary
accounts.

1335
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:02,320
During his lifetime, Joseph
provided 4 first hand accounts.

1336
01:25:02,440 --> 01:25:04,680
First Vision.
These primary accounts serve as

1337
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:06,800
the foundation for understanding
the prophets early history and

1338
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,640
prophetic call.
During his lifetime, however,

1339
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:12,320
Joseph also on occasion
recounted First Division to

1340
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:15,320
trusted friends, and the public
at large will read some of those

1341
01:25:15,320 --> 01:25:18,400
accounts.
Those who heard him retell the

1342
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:21,880
First Vision story then recorded
these rehearsals in both

1343
01:25:21,880 --> 01:25:23,640
published works and private
journals.

1344
01:25:24,240 --> 01:25:28,800
These secondary accounts act as
important historical data

1345
01:25:29,480 --> 01:25:31,280
accounts.
I'll get my glasses here.

1346
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:34,440
And second, they serve as
evidence that even though he was

1347
01:25:34,840 --> 01:25:38,640
overall reticent to speak too
much about it, we'll talk about

1348
01:25:38,640 --> 01:25:43,360
why Joseph was nevertheless
telling others about the first

1349
01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:49,480
vision during his lifetime.
So here's the first.

1350
01:25:49,480 --> 01:25:54,280
This is the Orson Pratt second
hand account in 1840 while on a

1351
01:25:54,280 --> 01:25:56,000
mission in the British Isles.
Apostle.

1352
01:25:56,360 --> 01:26:00,880
Don't you dig his hairstyle?
Apostle Orson Pratt published an

1353
01:26:00,880 --> 01:26:02,640
interest.
It's called an interesting

1354
01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:04,320
account of several remarkable
visions.

1355
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:08,040
Sweaty a pamphlet and of the
late discovery of ancient

1356
01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:10,160
American records as a missionary
tract.

1357
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:15,320
He began his 31 page as a big
pamphlet by describing Joseph

1358
01:26:15,320 --> 01:26:19,520
Smith's first vision of deity
and the later visit Joseph

1359
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:20,960
received from the Angel of the
Lord.

1360
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:23,080
I want to compare and contrast
those two because that's

1361
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:26,320
something to be learned there.
That was also the first to

1362
01:26:26,320 --> 01:26:30,360
mention that the bright, this is
cool.

1363
01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:34,400
We'll read that completely.
His is the only account that

1364
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:36,760
says the bright light that
descended on Joseph was so

1365
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:40,560
intense that Joseph expected the
leaves and boughs of the trees

1366
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:43,880
to be consumed.
And he goes in greater detail

1367
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:47,200
about Joseph is letting fly his
impression.

1368
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:52,440
I mean, and we'll talk about
this also.

1369
01:26:53,080 --> 01:26:57,040
Joseph is not the first prophet
in history to struggle to

1370
01:26:57,040 --> 01:26:59,400
describe a light beyond anything
you'd ever seen.

1371
01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:06,200
Very interesting.
Orson Hyde, a good looking guy.

1372
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:08,280
That was the best looking
picture I could find of him.

1373
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:12,520
I love this.
I wish I could meet this guy.

1374
01:27:12,520 --> 01:27:16,280
I love this guy.
This is in German.

1375
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:20,600
It's the first time the first
vision was written in the

1376
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:22,640
language other than English.
He was serving in Germany.

1377
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:26,800
Two years after Pratt published
his pamphlet, Orson published A

1378
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:33,960
missionary tract in Germany and
Roof AUS de Vista.

1379
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:36,040
I don't know exactly what that
means.

1380
01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:38,320
It means a cry out of the
wilderness.

1381
01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:44,000
I've done some German a cry out
of the wilderness, a voice from

1382
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:46,560
the bowels of the earth using
Pratts.

1383
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:49,040
An interesting account in his
principle as his he was using

1384
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:52,400
Pratts as his source.
I touch on the same points as

1385
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:54,160
Pratt and his retelling of the
First Vision.

1386
01:27:54,760 --> 01:27:58,560
One detail included by Hyde, not
by Pratt, however, is that

1387
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:01,800
Joseph painting the Grove is as
Joseph painting the Grove.

1388
01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:07,320
The adversary filled his mind
with doubts and all manner of

1389
01:28:07,440 --> 01:28:11,160
inappropriate images that
prevented him from attaining the

1390
01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:14,280
object of his endeavors.
Interesting.

1391
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:18,840
Stupid Satan using the same
stupid things on us.

1392
01:28:19,680 --> 01:28:22,920
Yep.
Although Hyde's overseas

1393
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,400
pamphlet did not become as
popular or influential as

1394
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:28,440
Pratt's, it is significant as
the first account of First

1395
01:28:28,440 --> 01:28:30,240
Vision published in a language
other than English.

1396
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:39,160
This is Levi Richards from June
11, 1843, two years before his

1397
01:28:39,160 --> 01:28:42,040
death, in a meeting at the
temple in Nauvoo, IL in the

1398
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:44,680
evening of June 11th, 1843.
Levi Richards, one of the

1399
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:48,240
prophets, Clerks, and a church
historian, heard Joseph give an

1400
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:51,080
account with First Vision.
His retelling came right after

1401
01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:55,360
Elder George Adams spoke on the
Book of Mormon and passages from

1402
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:59,240
Isaiah 242829 concerning the
apostasy from Christ's

1403
01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:01,280
everlasting covenant.
After summarizing Adam's

1404
01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:06,480
remarks, Elder Richards then
recorded President Joseph Smith

1405
01:29:06,480 --> 01:29:10,920
bore testimony to the same,
saying that when he was a youth

1406
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:16,360
he began to think about these
things, but could not find out

1407
01:29:16,360 --> 01:29:18,160
which of all the sects were
right.

1408
01:29:18,960 --> 01:29:21,280
He went into the Grove and
inquired of the Lord which of

1409
01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:24,840
all the sects were right.
He received her answer that none

1410
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:27,640
of them were right, that they
were all wrong, and that the

1411
01:29:27,640 --> 01:29:31,840
everlasting covenant was broken.
Now why would he highlight that

1412
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:34,360
in that meeting?
Because they had just been

1413
01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:36,840
talking about apostasy.
Yep.

1414
01:29:38,200 --> 01:29:45,480
So we added his testimony there.
Here are those poor guys leaving

1415
01:29:45,480 --> 01:29:51,240
out there's some Orson Pat,
Orson, Hyde and.

1416
01:29:53,080 --> 01:29:58,880
We'll get to David Nye.
David Nye Oh yeah, couldn't find

1417
01:29:58,880 --> 01:30:03,920
a picture of that dude.
A few months after this June

1418
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:06,880
1843 meeting, a journalist named
David Knife White, Senior

1419
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:09,480
editor.
Oh, I did have a picture of the

1420
01:30:09,480 --> 01:30:13,280
Pittsburgh Weekly Gazette
interviewed Joseph for his

1421
01:30:13,280 --> 01:30:16,720
paper.
Not a lot of the same while

1422
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:18,240
traveling through Nabu in the
nearby area.

1423
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:20,320
During the conversation that
ensued, the Prophet related to

1424
01:30:20,320 --> 01:30:24,280
circumstances the 1820 Vision.
In this interview, Joseph

1425
01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:27,560
reiterated the familiar points
present in his earlier accounts,

1426
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:31,480
with the added detail that the
specific place in the Grove

1427
01:30:31,480 --> 01:30:35,440
where he prayed was a clearing
that had a stump where he had

1428
01:30:35,440 --> 01:30:38,760
struck his axe when he had quit
work the previous day.

1429
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:45,320
That's that is an insignificant
detail in terms of doctrine.

1430
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:52,680
You would only add that if it
had happened 100%.

1431
01:30:53,360 --> 01:30:55,720
That's the only clue we have as
to where in the Grove that might

1432
01:30:55,720 --> 01:30:59,080
have been and the time of.
Year 100%.

1433
01:30:59,360 --> 01:31:00,840
You know what that reminds me
of?

1434
01:31:01,560 --> 01:31:04,160
What?
The free bird painting of of

1435
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:07,440
Washington and the Grove or or
or at Valley Forge.

1436
01:31:08,400 --> 01:31:15,880
So the only reason we have
record of that is because of a

1437
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:18,600
man named Isaac Potts.
And there's some speculation

1438
01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:22,880
whether Potts was just a Quaker
who wanted the war to end or was

1439
01:31:22,880 --> 01:31:25,240
he a British spy.
It doesn't really matter.

1440
01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:33,640
But nonetheless, when Potts goes
to either spy on Washington to

1441
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:36,520
tell the British where they are
so they can end the war or maybe

1442
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:44,920
even take him out, he goes and
he follows Washington into the

1443
01:31:44,920 --> 01:31:50,280
forest and he hears Washington
pray and he goes home and he

1444
01:31:50,280 --> 01:31:52,320
tells his wife we're on the
wrong side.

1445
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:55,520
And basically he flips his
allegiance.

1446
01:31:55,520 --> 01:31:59,720
Now, the interesting thing here,
and this kind of ties in with

1447
01:31:59,720 --> 01:32:03,400
the axe and and everything else.
And, and I think this lends

1448
01:32:03,400 --> 01:32:08,280
credence to this.
Freeburg got everything that he

1449
01:32:08,280 --> 01:32:13,520
could possibly get right, right
in that painting, right down to

1450
01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:17,040
the, you know, to the color of
the horse, the best he could

1451
01:32:17,040 --> 01:32:22,640
come up with descriptions.
The one thing he got wrong was

1452
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:26,560
the way Washington prayed.
We know because of Isaac Potts

1453
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:32,600
that Washington didn't pray on
one knee with hands folded and

1454
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:36,480
his head down.
When Washington prayed, he

1455
01:32:36,480 --> 01:32:42,160
prayed on both knees, hands up
and his face looking towards

1456
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:43,880
heaven.
Amazing.

1457
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:47,960
Yeah.
It's that small detail that

1458
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:51,600
tells you that it's not
rehearsed, right?

1459
01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:55,400
That that there are all these
details that are making an

1460
01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:59,000
impression.
That are significant, yes,

1461
01:32:59,000 --> 01:33:01,080
they're significant.
There's no it doesn't.

1462
01:33:01,240 --> 01:33:05,680
It doesn't embellish anything.
No, no.

1463
01:33:05,960 --> 01:33:10,280
And so as as Nye tells the
stories, David Nye White tells

1464
01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:15,120
the story and Joe or or was
retelling the story that's told

1465
01:33:15,120 --> 01:33:22,480
to him, obviously there is some
some detail there that is seared

1466
01:33:22,480 --> 01:33:26,960
into Joseph's memory, right.
And I think that's hugely

1467
01:33:26,960 --> 01:33:31,280
important when we start talking
about the veracity of of the

1468
01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:37,360
claims that he said he saw, I
think it's it adds a level of,

1469
01:33:37,360 --> 01:33:40,760
of credence and gravitas to what
it is he's after.

1470
01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:44,760
Absolutely.
So here's Alexander Niebauer.

1471
01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:48,200
The final contemporary secondary
town of First Vision comes from

1472
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:52,000
Alexander Niebauer, A trusted
Jewish German friend of the

1473
01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:58,720
prophets, who had joined the
Church in England in 1837 some

1474
01:33:58,720 --> 01:34:01,440
years previously, and it
immigrated to Nauvoo four years

1475
01:34:01,440 --> 01:34:04,560
later.
Keep thinking about him, as his

1476
01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:07,120
English was not great at a very
thick German accent.

1477
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:12,240
In May 1844, Niebauer was
present at a small gathering to

1478
01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:15,480
his chosen gave an account of
his vision just a month before,

1479
01:34:15,560 --> 01:34:17,760
one month before he was
murdered.

1480
01:34:24,200 --> 01:34:33,240
Importantly, Niebauer preserved
Joseph's only description of the

1481
01:34:33,240 --> 01:34:40,200
personage who otherwise defied
all description as light

1482
01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:45,360
complexion, blue eyes, and a
piece of white cloth drawn over

1483
01:34:45,360 --> 01:34:48,200
his shoulder, his right arm
bare.

1484
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:53,320
After a while, another person
came up to the side of the 1st.

1485
01:34:56,880 --> 01:35:03,840
Interesting, I don't like a
robe.

1486
01:35:03,840 --> 01:35:06,480
Over his shoulder.
That's kind of what I'm

1487
01:35:06,480 --> 01:35:08,800
thinking, yeah.
It's it's kind of a.

1488
01:35:09,280 --> 01:35:11,120
Probably.
Just a coincidence, Dave.

1489
01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:13,400
It's just a coincidence.
Don't worry about it.

1490
01:35:14,760 --> 01:35:19,160
Can't be anything to it.
It should be remembered that

1491
01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:21,400
these are the known contemporary
second hand accounts for the

1492
01:35:21,400 --> 01:35:25,200
First Vision.
It is almost certain that Joseph

1493
01:35:25,200 --> 01:35:28,240
told more individuals about this
vision, but that these

1494
01:35:28,240 --> 01:35:30,240
retellings were not recorded or
have not survived.

1495
01:35:30,920 --> 01:35:34,160
Later eminences from UP from
individuals who knew Joseph

1496
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:37,320
corroborate this like the other
five.

1497
01:35:37,320 --> 01:35:41,480
Did we say caps right?
For instance, Joseph Curtis,

1498
01:35:41,480 --> 01:35:44,680
remember Joseph providing an
account of his First Vision 1835

1499
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:47,960
while visiting the Saints in
Michigan?

1500
01:35:49,120 --> 01:35:53,040
Oh, he's trying to hide it in
Michigan, not Edward Stephenson.

1501
01:35:53,040 --> 01:35:57,520
Recall late in his life that in
1834 he, along with many, large,

1502
01:35:57,600 --> 01:36:02,360
many large congregations, heard
the Prophet testify with great

1503
01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:06,160
power concerning the visit of
the Father and the Son and the

1504
01:36:06,160 --> 01:36:11,120
conversation he had with them
and Mary.

1505
01:36:11,120 --> 01:36:14,960
Isabella Horne recounted how she
first met Joseph as a young

1506
01:36:14,960 --> 01:36:20,440
woman while living in Canada,
Toronto, and in the fall of 1837

1507
01:36:21,040 --> 01:36:24,400
remembered hearing him relate to
his first vision when the father

1508
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:27,600
and the son appeared to him, and
also his receiving the gold

1509
01:36:27,600 --> 01:36:32,240
plates with me tomorrow night.
Although these reminiscences

1510
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:35,040
must be accepted cautiously
because of their second hand

1511
01:36:35,040 --> 01:36:37,560
nature and in some cases because
of the great distance from the

1512
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:41,720
time of the events, they are
consistent with Joseph's own

1513
01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:45,440
first hand accounts and are
reinforced by the known fact

1514
01:36:45,440 --> 01:36:49,120
that the Prophet was indeed
telling others about his vision

1515
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:53,040
during the mid 1830s.
When brought together, these

1516
01:36:53,040 --> 01:36:56,960
first handed secondary accounts
constitute the entire known

1517
01:36:56,960 --> 01:36:59,480
historical record that relates
directly to the contemporary

1518
01:36:59,480 --> 01:37:02,920
descriptions of Joseph Smith's
first vision and potentially

1519
01:37:02,920 --> 01:37:08,480
make that vision the best
documented theophany in history.

1520
01:37:10,920 --> 01:37:16,160
Stick that in your pipe, spoke
other criticisms.

1521
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:24,000
There was an article written a
few decades ago saying that the

1522
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:28,560
religious excitement that Joseph
Smith described prior to 1820 in

1523
01:37:28,560 --> 01:37:33,080
the Palmyra area is false, that
there was no such religious

1524
01:37:33,080 --> 01:37:35,440
excitement when scholars really
dug into it.

1525
01:37:36,200 --> 01:37:40,000
But do you imagine they found
exactly the opposite, and

1526
01:37:40,000 --> 01:37:45,080
exactly what Joseph Smith's
described in specific detail in

1527
01:37:45,080 --> 01:37:50,680
Palmyra, specifically the Great
Revival of 1816 and 1817?

1528
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:54,000
And apparently he had been
investigating this and

1529
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:56,320
struggling with this for two to
three years before the First

1530
01:37:56,320 --> 01:38:01,240
Vision, before he prayed.
The Great Revival of 18/16/87,

1531
01:38:01,240 --> 01:38:07,000
which nearly doubled the number
of Palmyra Presbyterians, was

1532
01:38:07,000 --> 01:38:11,200
still in progress when The
Smiths arrived the next year,

1533
01:38:11,200 --> 01:38:13,320
June 1818.
A Methodist camp.

1534
01:38:13,320 --> 01:38:16,480
Why is that significant?
That was the minister that

1535
01:38:16,480 --> 01:38:18,800
Joseph Smith was listening to
and confided in.

1536
01:38:20,640 --> 01:38:23,040
And why the Presbyterian?
And why the Presbyterian

1537
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:27,480
significant?
That's the church that Lucy,

1538
01:38:27,480 --> 01:38:30,160
Joseph's mother Lucy, and most
of the family joined.

1539
01:38:31,160 --> 01:38:35,920
Before the 1st Division.
A Methodist camp meeting was

1540
01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:39,480
held on the outskirts of town,
drawing in a crowd of around

1541
01:38:39,480 --> 01:38:45,520
2000, twice the population of
Palmyra itself.

1542
01:38:45,720 --> 01:38:49,440
So this painting that I have
here, it's not an exaggeration,

1543
01:38:51,520 --> 01:38:53,560
must have been like pro
wrestling or something of the

1544
01:38:53,560 --> 01:39:00,760
day and featuring a high, a
high-ranking leader, honestly.

1545
01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:05,800
It must have been like their
number one choice of

1546
01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:09,520
entertainment, honestly.
Well, that's, that's actually,

1547
01:39:10,000 --> 01:39:13,080
that's actually keeping, keeping
in with the times, right?

1548
01:39:13,200 --> 01:39:20,640
Yeah, De Tocqueville mentions
that right, that in his treatise

1549
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:25,760
on America, he said the even the
Taverns were alive with, you

1550
01:39:25,760 --> 01:39:30,560
know, religious fervor and the
talk of politics.

1551
01:39:30,760 --> 01:39:33,120
Right.
So why wouldn't it be freedom of

1552
01:39:33,120 --> 01:39:35,880
religion?
Yeah, it was the IT was the

1553
01:39:35,880 --> 01:39:37,600
first time you could do that,
right?

1554
01:39:38,840 --> 01:39:41,120
It wasn't it?
It was kind of a novelty.

1555
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:44,680
Yeah, but yeah.
But none, none the less, it does

1556
01:39:44,680 --> 01:39:51,280
show that.
OK, side tangent, our phones are

1557
01:39:51,280 --> 01:39:53,840
making us Dumber.
I don't know how else to put it.

1558
01:39:54,200 --> 01:39:58,920
None of us like we have access
to be able to just bring up all

1559
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:01,760
sorts of massive information,
but yet we just keep getting

1560
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:04,000
Dumber, right?
It seems like when we didn't

1561
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:06,800
have all this tech, we were
thinking about deeper things.

1562
01:40:07,400 --> 01:40:13,360
But nonetheless, it it does show
that that this was very much an

1563
01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:16,520
American pastime talking about
religion and politics.

1564
01:40:17,960 --> 01:40:21,880
For sure there's a high-ranking
leader in the American Methodist

1565
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:24,080
Church.
Another Methodist camp meeting

1566
01:40:24,080 --> 01:40:26,800
with at least 1000 people in
tennis was held in Palmyra.

1567
01:40:27,400 --> 01:40:34,720
June. 1820 and in July 1819, the
neighboring town of Phelps, also

1568
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:37,760
called Vienna, was the host of a
major regional conference of the

1569
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:42,400
Methodist Church, bringing in
around 100 preachers from all

1570
01:40:42,400 --> 01:40:45,800
across Western New York, big
money northern Pennsylvania, and

1571
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:47,520
southern Canada.
These preachers held camp

1572
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:50,240
meetings throughout the region
as they travel to and from the

1573
01:40:50,240 --> 01:40:54,600
conference.
Yes, Joseph Smith was telling

1574
01:40:54,600 --> 01:41:00,160
the truth.
So why did Joseph Smith wait so

1575
01:41:00,160 --> 01:41:05,520
long to tell anyone it's
actually not true.

1576
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:08,080
He waited, but not as long as
people think.

1577
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:10,960
There is evidence that church
members were aware of elements

1578
01:41:10,960 --> 01:41:14,000
of the First Vision story as
early as 1827.

1579
01:41:15,440 --> 01:41:22,440
Well that would have made him 20
years old in 1827.

1580
01:41:22,440 --> 01:41:23,760
And thank goodness for the anti
Mormons.

1581
01:41:24,320 --> 01:41:26,960
A skeptical account from
Reverend John Nick Clark mixed

1582
01:41:26,960 --> 01:41:29,800
nine First Division story
elements together from the story

1583
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:32,320
of the coming forth the Book of
Mormon and said he learned them

1584
01:41:32,320 --> 01:41:35,680
all in the fall of 1827.
For Martin Harris second hand

1585
01:41:36,520 --> 01:41:40,400
that early interesting a hostile
account for someone who knew

1586
01:41:40,400 --> 01:41:43,560
Joseph.
In 1827 reported I, Joseph

1587
01:41:43,600 --> 01:41:47,080
Capron became acquainted with
Joseph Smith's senior and the

1588
01:41:47,080 --> 01:41:49,720
year of our Lord 1827.
They have since then been really

1589
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:53,280
a peculiar people, fond of the
foolish and the marvelous, at

1590
01:41:53,280 --> 01:41:56,320
one time addicted to vice and
the grossest immoralities, and

1591
01:41:57,360 --> 01:42:00,080
another time making the highest
pretentious to piety and holy

1592
01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:05,280
intercourse with Almighty God.
See Family of The Smiths held

1593
01:42:05,280 --> 01:42:09,240
Joseph Junior in high estimation
on account of some supernatural

1594
01:42:09,240 --> 01:42:13,840
power which he was supposed to
possess 1827 quite early.

1595
01:42:16,080 --> 01:42:20,800
Then we have similar accounts in
3132333435 and 36.

1596
01:42:22,320 --> 01:42:24,840
So it's a it's a test that far
earlier than most people

1597
01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:28,840
realize.
Nevertheless, why didn't he

1598
01:42:28,840 --> 01:42:31,440
write it down immediately?
Why didn't he tell more people

1599
01:42:31,440 --> 01:42:35,600
about it?
I give 5 reasons #1 Joseph Smith

1600
01:42:35,600 --> 01:42:40,240
was not a loudmouth.
His own mother describes him as

1601
01:42:40,240 --> 01:42:45,720
a remarkably quiet, well
disposed child, much less

1602
01:42:45,720 --> 01:42:48,040
inclined to the perusal of books
than any of the rest of our

1603
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:51,400
children, but far more given to
meditation and deep study.

1604
01:42:53,200 --> 01:42:54,920
OK.
Yeah, he's not that kind.

1605
01:42:54,920 --> 01:42:58,760
Of guy we can say from that we
can say he's he's internalizing

1606
01:42:58,760 --> 01:43:02,240
what he's received, right, which
does add up to his first

1607
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:06,720
rehearsals of his vision, right
or his first first tellings of

1608
01:43:06,720 --> 01:43:11,280
his vision because he is it's
very it's a very from a very

1609
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:14,640
personal point of view, right.
This is what again, this is what

1610
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:18,200
it meant to me being.
Personal or not, his mother

1611
01:43:18,200 --> 01:43:22,320
describes him as an introvert.
An introvert is not going to be

1612
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:24,600
clientele, anybody, anything,
especially something so

1613
01:43:24,600 --> 01:43:26,360
personal.
Right.

1614
01:43:26,360 --> 01:43:30,600
Second reason, persecution and
the years after his first

1615
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:32,360
vision.
Joseph Junior said little about

1616
01:43:32,360 --> 01:43:35,960
his spiritual development.
He had no sense of mission.

1617
01:43:36,440 --> 01:43:40,760
God hadn't told him yet.
No emerging prophetic identity,

1618
01:43:41,720 --> 01:43:49,240
unless a mysterious reference to
the 1838 account says many other

1619
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:52,440
things did he say to me which I
cannot write at this time?

1620
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:01,360
Richard Bushman says, unless
that is interpreted to mean

1621
01:44:01,360 --> 01:44:04,320
religious instructions.
Don't know what Joseph said

1622
01:44:04,320 --> 01:44:08,400
explicitly was that division led
to trouble, though his youthful

1623
01:44:08,400 --> 01:44:11,160
sensitivity probably exaggerated
the reaction.

1624
01:44:11,280 --> 01:44:14,280
Well, duh.
The talk with the minister he

1625
01:44:14,280 --> 01:44:18,880
remembered brought on ridiculed
by all classes of men, both

1626
01:44:18,880 --> 01:44:21,640
religious and irreligious.
Because I continued to affirm

1627
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:23,400
what I had, that I'd seen a
vision.

1628
01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:25,600
Even though he wasn't even
persecuted, he wouldn't deny it.

1629
01:44:26,280 --> 01:44:29,480
His brother William remembered
people throwing, throwing stuff

1630
01:44:29,480 --> 01:44:32,760
at their house, dirt, stones and
sticks.

1631
01:44:36,120 --> 01:44:40,600
It is noted by some that in 1838
Joseph declared that his basic

1632
01:44:40,600 --> 01:44:42,320
reason.
This is interesting.

1633
01:44:42,320 --> 01:44:47,760
Also from Rough Stone, rolling
or no Pearliger I say were

1634
01:44:47,760 --> 01:44:50,720
telling.
The basic reason for telling the

1635
01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:54,320
first vision, even then, 18
years after it happened, was in

1636
01:44:54,320 --> 01:44:57,840
response to reports that put in
circulation by evil dispose and

1637
01:44:57,840 --> 01:45:01,400
designing persons to defend
himself who had distorted the

1638
01:45:01,400 --> 01:45:03,440
facts.
Furthermore, the young Prophet

1639
01:45:03,440 --> 01:45:07,120
said that he had been severely
rebuffed the first time he told

1640
01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:10,400
the story in 1820, and since it
represented one of his most

1641
01:45:10,400 --> 01:45:12,920
profound spiritual experiences,
he could well have decided to

1642
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:16,560
circulate it only privately
until he could feel certain that

1643
01:45:16,560 --> 01:45:19,200
in relating it he would not
receive again the general

1644
01:45:19,200 --> 01:45:20,160
ridicule of France.
I think.

1645
01:45:20,280 --> 01:45:22,600
So he's gun shy of that sort of
response.

1646
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:26,840
The third reason this is
interesting, Russ's unrolling.

1647
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:31,000
At first Joseph was reluctant to
talk about his vision, the

1648
01:45:31,000 --> 01:45:32,720
Angel.
And he, quoting Joseph, the

1649
01:45:32,720 --> 01:45:36,560
Angel of the Lord, says that we
must be careful not to proclaim

1650
01:45:36,560 --> 01:45:38,880
these things or to mention them
abroad.

1651
01:45:39,160 --> 01:45:41,800
He told his parents after one
early version.

1652
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:46,080
Now clearly later, they were
supposed to proclaim it abroad,

1653
01:45:46,400 --> 01:45:49,680
but in the timing of the Lord,
it wasn't time yet.

1654
01:45:50,480 --> 01:45:57,760
Yeah #4 he was busy.
Joseph Smith in 1841.

1655
01:45:57,760 --> 01:46:00,640
This is later, but gives us some
idea, He lamented.

1656
01:46:01,360 --> 01:46:03,800
Since I have been engaged in
laying the foundation of the

1657
01:46:03,800 --> 01:46:06,840
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints, I have been

1658
01:46:06,840 --> 01:46:10,200
prevented in various ways from
continuing my journal and

1659
01:46:10,200 --> 01:46:14,200
history in a matter satisfactory
to myself or injustice to the

1660
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:18,080
cause.
Long imprisonments, vexations,

1661
01:46:18,280 --> 01:46:22,440
and long continued lawsuits,
law, fair, the treachery of some

1662
01:46:22,440 --> 01:46:26,720
of my clerks, the death of
others, and the poverty of

1663
01:46:26,720 --> 01:46:30,960
myself and brethren from
continued plunder and driving,

1664
01:46:30,960 --> 01:46:34,680
have prevented my handing down
to posterity a connected

1665
01:46:34,680 --> 01:46:37,560
memorandum of events desirable
to all lovers of truth.

1666
01:46:38,680 --> 01:46:41,480
Yet I have continued to keep up
a journal in the best manner my

1667
01:46:41,480 --> 01:46:45,800
circumstances would allow and
dictate for my history from time

1668
01:46:45,800 --> 01:46:48,840
to time as I have had
opportunity, so that the

1669
01:46:48,840 --> 01:46:51,200
laborers and suffering of the
first elders and Saints of this

1670
01:46:51,200 --> 01:46:54,360
last Kingdom might not wholly be
lost to the world.

1671
01:46:55,200 --> 01:46:58,080
So that agrees perfectly with
the 1832 account.

1672
01:46:58,680 --> 01:46:59,680
Emma, I don't have anything to
do.

1673
01:46:59,680 --> 01:47:01,720
What should I do?
And he starts already makes that

1674
01:47:01,720 --> 01:47:04,760
first attempt.
The history of the Church, begun

1675
01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:09,800
in 1838, was the first fully
organized attempt to place the

1676
01:47:09,800 --> 01:47:11,720
events that are transpired in
relation to the restoration of

1677
01:47:11,720 --> 01:47:14,840
the gospel into a comprehensive
and chronologically arranged

1678
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:21,440
arranged record.
The fifth reason he didn't write

1679
01:47:21,440 --> 01:47:23,640
it down right away.
Record keeping was not a thing.

1680
01:47:24,960 --> 01:47:28,720
The Smith family was a fairly
normal agricultural family.

1681
01:47:29,760 --> 01:47:33,920
They kept practical records like
farmers would have to, but they

1682
01:47:33,920 --> 01:47:36,520
didn't necessarily keep records
about their past.

1683
01:47:37,120 --> 01:47:39,800
There doesn't seem to be much
correspondence, though there is

1684
01:47:39,800 --> 01:47:41,320
some evidence that there is
some.

1685
01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:46,480
In other words, the Smith family
is not a literary family family.

1686
01:47:46,480 --> 01:47:47,880
They're literate.
They can read.

1687
01:47:48,360 --> 01:47:51,760
They're not necessarily
bookworms or writers or poets.

1688
01:47:52,520 --> 01:47:56,600
It's as much an oral culture
than it is a literature

1689
01:47:56,840 --> 01:48:00,080
illiterate culture.
Once Joseph Smith is receiving

1690
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:03,000
his visions, they are not
written down at any time.

1691
01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:10,200
He had no precedent for that
until, and I have to tell you, I

1692
01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:16,640
remember as a Deacon reading
section 20 and studying 21 of 43

1693
01:48:17,320 --> 01:48:19,720
and over.
And we see, as I cite here

1694
01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:28,040
123456 times in the Doctrine
Covenants, as I counted 6 times,

1695
01:48:28,080 --> 01:48:35,560
the Lord Himself commands,
specifically commands them and

1696
01:48:35,560 --> 01:48:39,120
calls people to keep records and
says that it's critical.

1697
01:48:39,800 --> 01:48:44,560
And I thought to myself as a
dumb Deacon, of all the things

1698
01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:47,640
God can tell people to keep
records.

1699
01:48:47,640 --> 01:48:50,000
I mean, I hated writing back in
the day.

1700
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:52,200
I didn't, I didn't understand
that at all.

1701
01:48:53,360 --> 01:48:56,680
And in section 43, verse one
through three, he says, Behold,

1702
01:48:57,640 --> 01:49:02,800
it is expedient, necessary in me
that my servant John Whitmer

1703
01:49:02,800 --> 01:49:08,200
should write and keep a regular
history and assist you, my

1704
01:49:08,200 --> 01:49:12,600
servant Joseph, and transcribes
me all things which shall be

1705
01:49:12,600 --> 01:49:15,720
given you until he is called to
further duties.

1706
01:49:16,600 --> 01:49:19,120
And again I say to you that it
shall be appointed up to him to

1707
01:49:19,200 --> 01:49:23,800
keep the church record and
history continually for Oliver

1708
01:49:23,800 --> 01:49:25,560
cadre.
I have appointed to another

1709
01:49:25,560 --> 01:49:29,960
office.
I mean, to have A and that's

1710
01:49:29,960 --> 01:49:32,840
that section.
That section is devoted to that,

1711
01:49:34,280 --> 01:49:37,440
a specific revelation from God
about keeping stupid records.

1712
01:49:38,080 --> 01:49:42,160
And we now know why.
But that was, that was a new

1713
01:49:42,160 --> 01:49:45,760
thing that happened in 1830.
And as soon as that revelation

1714
01:49:45,760 --> 01:49:48,920
was given, suddenly they got
busy trying to do that.

1715
01:49:50,600 --> 01:49:53,760
I didn't, but nonetheless.
He had quite a few scribes in in

1716
01:49:53,760 --> 01:49:56,000
his life.
Right In Joseph's life, I mean,

1717
01:49:56,800 --> 01:49:59,240
it wasn't like Oliver was just
always there, right?

1718
01:49:59,240 --> 01:50:03,640
He, Oliver has his, has his, you
know, dissolution with the

1719
01:50:03,640 --> 01:50:09,160
church and, and have the various
persecutions and whatnot.

1720
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:14,040
They're it's, it's hard and
look, it's hard enough if you

1721
01:50:14,040 --> 01:50:16,280
have to.
I don't care what your job is,

1722
01:50:18,040 --> 01:50:21,480
you come behind somebody, it is
difficult to try to replicate

1723
01:50:21,480 --> 01:50:25,440
what it is they've done.
And so I can only imagine.

1724
01:50:25,440 --> 01:50:30,280
It's probably doubly so because
a lot of times it's not like you

1725
01:50:30,280 --> 01:50:32,320
could just ask the guy, hey,
what were you thinking right

1726
01:50:32,320 --> 01:50:34,080
here?
So they got to pick it up.

1727
01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:37,360
I, I can only imagine.
And again, paper is expensive.

1728
01:50:37,800 --> 01:50:40,400
And this is the thing we don't
understand.

1729
01:50:40,400 --> 01:50:43,120
Presentism clouds our view.
Pen, right?

1730
01:50:43,120 --> 01:50:46,440
Pen and paper.
Quill and ink and paper back

1731
01:50:46,440 --> 01:50:48,920
then was like an iPad for us
today.

1732
01:50:50,280 --> 01:50:51,400
And he was in poverty all the
time.

1733
01:50:51,400 --> 01:50:54,960
I mean, good grief, somebody had
to donate papers so that they

1734
01:50:54,960 --> 01:50:56,240
could translate the Book of
Mormon.

1735
01:50:57,840 --> 01:51:01,800
Right.
Now, here's the other thing

1736
01:51:01,800 --> 01:51:05,400
people will say.
Oh, but everybody during the

1737
01:51:05,400 --> 01:51:08,400
1800s, during the burned over
period, during this revivalism

1738
01:51:08,400 --> 01:51:11,800
and all these charismatic
religions, everybody was having

1739
01:51:11,800 --> 01:51:14,960
visions and miraculous
occurrences.

1740
01:51:15,240 --> 01:51:17,400
So Joseph Smith was not out of
the ordinary.

1741
01:51:19,160 --> 01:51:20,760
This is the response of
scholars.

1742
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:27,440
Richard Bushman wrote a book
about it analyzed other

1743
01:51:27,440 --> 01:51:29,920
narratives of spiritual
experiences contemporary to

1744
01:51:29,920 --> 01:51:34,640
Joseph Smith.
Bushman compared Joseph's 393839

1745
01:51:34,640 --> 01:51:37,360
account with reports of
visionary conversion experiences

1746
01:51:38,040 --> 01:51:40,320
in 32 pamphlets published in the
United States.

1747
01:51:40,320 --> 01:51:43,560
That's a lot between 1783 and
1815.

1748
01:51:44,480 --> 01:51:47,680
Finding that the stylistic
finding that the stylistic

1749
01:51:47,680 --> 01:51:51,720
similarities, while interesting
and plentiful in the end, only

1750
01:51:51,720 --> 01:51:56,000
highlight the differences
between Joseph and the host of

1751
01:51:56,000 --> 01:52:00,240
now forgotten visionaries.
For instance, these narratives

1752
01:52:00,240 --> 01:52:04,240
of dreams and miraculous
appearances did not imply the

1753
01:52:04,240 --> 01:52:07,080
construction of any
institutional form.

1754
01:52:07,800 --> 01:52:11,320
They did not propose doctrine.
They did not proclaim

1755
01:52:11,320 --> 01:52:14,960
commandments.
They inspired awe at the

1756
01:52:14,960 --> 01:52:18,320
presence of invisible powers
made visible, but were on

1757
01:52:18,320 --> 01:52:21,560
occasion to marvel rather than
to act.

1758
01:52:22,440 --> 01:52:27,000
We call those sign seekers.
Right.

1759
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:32,560
Really great price. central.org
Methodists of the day carefully.

1760
01:52:32,640 --> 01:52:37,400
This is super interesting to me.
I've always wondered Joseph

1761
01:52:37,400 --> 01:52:43,000
Smith's language choice that I
in reality did see a vision.

1762
01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:46,600
Why was that significant?
Because of this, Methodists of

1763
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:49,560
the day, which he would be very
familiar with, carefully

1764
01:52:50,200 --> 01:52:52,400
qualified the nature of their
visionary experiences with

1765
01:52:52,400 --> 01:52:57,800
phrases like by faith I saw or
by affirming that it was just a

1766
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:01,040
dream.
Most commonly, individual

1767
01:53:01,040 --> 01:53:03,440
described their visions in
ambiguous terms.

1768
01:53:03,920 --> 01:53:06,360
Whether in or out of the body, I
could not tell.

1769
01:53:07,080 --> 01:53:12,600
Joseph Smith, by contrast,
affirmed unambiguously that it

1770
01:53:12,600 --> 01:53:16,600
was the quote.
It was nevertheless a fact that

1771
01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:22,280
I had seen a vision, I had
actually seen a light, and in

1772
01:53:22,280 --> 01:53:26,720
the midst of that light I saw
two personages, and they did in

1773
01:53:26,720 --> 01:53:30,040
reality speak to me.
Not in a dream.

1774
01:53:31,600 --> 01:53:35,080
I knew it, and I knew that God
knew it, and I could not deny

1775
01:53:35,080 --> 01:53:37,720
it.
It was thus not necessarily a

1776
01:53:37,720 --> 01:53:39,760
matter of what Joseph Smith
experienced, but rather how he

1777
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:42,880
explained it.
That's very distinctive.

1778
01:53:43,920 --> 01:53:48,000
He's doing the exact opposite of
what Methodist culture of the

1779
01:53:48,000 --> 01:53:51,160
time was doing.
By being ambiguous, he's letting

1780
01:53:51,160 --> 01:53:54,120
you know in no uncertain terms
it was real.

1781
01:53:54,120 --> 01:53:57,640
This, this, this happened.
This went down and it went down.

1782
01:53:57,640 --> 01:53:59,880
Like I said, it went down.
Very interesting.

1783
01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:04,840
The market differences noted by
Bushman and another historian,

1784
01:54:04,840 --> 01:54:07,760
Jones, are among the reasons why
historians attempting to

1785
01:54:07,760 --> 01:54:11,080
adequately situate Joseph Smith
in the visionary culture of

1786
01:54:11,080 --> 01:54:14,680
antebellum American Christianity
continue to grapple with the

1787
01:54:14,680 --> 01:54:17,280
task.
In fact, so radical was the

1788
01:54:17,280 --> 01:54:21,360
message of Joseph Smith's first
vision that all existing

1789
01:54:21,360 --> 01:54:26,280
Christian denominations were in
apostasy and that the fullest of

1790
01:54:26,280 --> 01:54:30,200
the gospel would be restored at
the future time, that it was

1791
01:54:30,200 --> 01:54:32,880
downright offensive to many in
his generation.

1792
01:54:34,040 --> 01:54:36,560
Quote reports of visions and
divine appearances were

1793
01:54:36,560 --> 01:54:39,800
commonplace at the time, remarks
the latter Day St.

1794
01:54:39,800 --> 01:54:44,080
Historian Robert Remini in his
biography of the Prophet Joseph.

1795
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:47,480
Merely claiming to have had a
vision was not in and of itself

1796
01:54:47,480 --> 01:54:51,040
problematic.
But what was objectionable was

1797
01:54:51,040 --> 01:54:53,600
the message of the First Vision,
namely that all of the churches

1798
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:56,960
were wrong and an abomination in
God's sight.

1799
01:54:57,360 --> 01:55:01,480
Here then, was one of the 1st
and most important reasons why

1800
01:55:01,480 --> 01:55:04,840
Joseph came to be hated and
reviled by ministers in the

1801
01:55:04,840 --> 01:55:07,880
congregations.
The charge that all other faiths

1802
01:55:07,880 --> 01:55:09,760
were offensive to God in the
preachers corrupt.

1803
01:55:10,120 --> 01:55:12,800
The accusations, they argued,
were not simply wrong and

1804
01:55:12,800 --> 01:55:18,000
insulting, but damnable.
He was unique in that regard.

1805
01:55:18,760 --> 01:55:20,800
You know, I mean, the other, the
other people giving these

1806
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:23,320
miraculous events were giving
these events for what purpose?

1807
01:55:24,680 --> 01:55:28,040
Self aggrandizement, right.
They, they don't want to put off

1808
01:55:28,040 --> 01:55:29,320
the people they're sharing the
events with.

1809
01:55:29,920 --> 01:55:32,360
Joseph clearly was putting off
people.

1810
01:55:32,360 --> 01:55:35,560
He, although he cared about
being persecuted, he wasn't

1811
01:55:35,560 --> 01:55:37,280
trying to flatter anybody,
clearly.

1812
01:55:38,480 --> 01:55:39,400
How about that?
So.

1813
01:55:39,960 --> 01:55:43,920
I, I think, I think this is
someplace where it's vitally

1814
01:55:43,920 --> 01:55:48,960
important for context sake to
understand two things out of out

1815
01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:56,360
of this slide here.
First, Rosa Smith is, and look,

1816
01:55:56,360 --> 01:55:58,200
I'm not saying he understood
this.

1817
01:55:58,200 --> 01:56:02,560
I there's nothing there that
that tells me at that young age

1818
01:56:02,560 --> 01:56:06,600
when he's first letting this out
that he's even cognizant of

1819
01:56:06,600 --> 01:56:08,480
this.
But in some ways he is

1820
01:56:08,480 --> 01:56:13,320
challenging the livelihood of
certain clergymen, Right.

1821
01:56:13,840 --> 01:56:15,440
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.

1822
01:56:15,480 --> 01:56:17,920
Wait, wait.
You're, you're you can barely

1823
01:56:18,120 --> 01:56:20,120
read.
You can't form a coherent

1824
01:56:20,120 --> 01:56:23,600
sentence.
But me, a guy who's been to

1825
01:56:23,600 --> 01:56:25,000
Oxford and.
And.

1826
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:26,560
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Harvard and.

1827
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:28,880
And I've been educated to be a
preacher.

1828
01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:35,000
God chose you.
No, I I could see where that'd

1829
01:56:35,000 --> 01:56:36,800
be a rub.
Yeah, for sure.

1830
01:56:36,800 --> 01:56:40,800
The other thing, the other thing
that that I want to point out

1831
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:45,680
here and, and we kind of brush
this recently here, we, we, we

1832
01:56:45,680 --> 01:56:49,040
talked about a little bit, but I
think it's, it's worth repeating

1833
01:56:49,040 --> 01:56:55,280
here that line that the Lord
tells Joseph that they, that

1834
01:56:55,280 --> 01:56:58,880
they were all that, that all
their creeds were an abomination

1835
01:56:58,880 --> 01:57:03,000
before him.
The Lord there is no middle

1836
01:57:03,000 --> 01:57:08,680
ground with that statement.
Now I that doesn't mean that we

1837
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:13,840
doesn't mean we discount what
other religions have that that

1838
01:57:13,880 --> 01:57:17,640
is true.
But I do think it's important

1839
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:21,560
that we note that the Lord was
clear here.

1840
01:57:21,560 --> 01:57:26,800
If you believe Joseph Smith's
first vision that that there

1841
01:57:27,000 --> 01:57:32,280
there was doctrinally incorrect
things there that must needs be

1842
01:57:32,760 --> 01:57:37,680
fixed for a man to enjoy a
fullness in relationship with

1843
01:57:37,680 --> 01:57:39,560
deity.
And then there's that whole

1844
01:57:39,560 --> 01:57:42,800
authority thing.
Yeah, that's part of it.

1845
01:57:43,520 --> 01:57:44,080
Right.
And so.

1846
01:57:45,200 --> 01:57:49,040
I think like, but that's what
appealed to me about Mormonism,

1847
01:57:49,200 --> 01:57:53,640
right?
OK, this one guy saw this and

1848
01:57:53,640 --> 01:57:57,080
heard this.
He kind of gives me the outline

1849
01:57:57,080 --> 01:58:02,400
how to go get my own answers.
I don't have to struggle with

1850
01:58:02,400 --> 01:58:07,200
the uncertainties on the, the
really vital things of how to

1851
01:58:08,360 --> 01:58:12,560
enjoy, you know, the the
opportunity to get back to my

1852
01:58:12,560 --> 01:58:16,080
father and God and, and what
happens to my family or me after

1853
01:58:16,080 --> 01:58:20,680
death.
But that can only grow out of a

1854
01:58:20,680 --> 01:58:24,480
certain sense of certainty.
And I think that's exactly what

1855
01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:26,960
the Lord is pointing out when he
says, look, we're going to fix

1856
01:58:26,960 --> 01:58:31,080
some things here because
everybody's got some incorrect

1857
01:58:31,080 --> 01:58:33,920
doctrine here.
I also want to point out that

1858
01:58:33,920 --> 01:58:39,760
that doesn't mean that I think 1
certain group in Mormonism or

1859
01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:43,840
one certain person has it all
figured out all the time either,

1860
01:58:43,840 --> 01:58:45,280
right?
Because we're all still human.

1861
01:58:45,360 --> 01:58:46,920
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1862
01:58:47,720 --> 01:58:50,600
So I want to qualify it that
that doesn't mean that you're

1863
01:58:50,600 --> 01:58:53,480
automatically 100% right because
you're a Mormon.

1864
01:58:53,480 --> 01:58:56,800
I think that there's a ton of
growth that we have to do on

1865
01:58:56,800 --> 01:59:00,040
this side, but nonetheless, the
Lord has.

1866
01:59:00,560 --> 01:59:03,240
The Lord was very clear on that,
and I think that's worth

1867
01:59:03,280 --> 01:59:06,360
pointing out.
Yep, Yep, no man taketh this

1868
01:59:06,360 --> 01:59:10,440
honor unto himself, save he that
is called a God, as was Aaron,

1869
01:59:11,480 --> 01:59:15,320
and that's that.
That the New Testament script in

1870
01:59:15,320 --> 01:59:20,600
Hebrews is a condemnation of all
Protestants, you know.

1871
01:59:21,640 --> 01:59:24,880
Yep.
Yeah, not all Protestant people,

1872
01:59:24,880 --> 01:59:27,840
but all Protestant faiths.
And that's the thing.

1873
01:59:27,840 --> 01:59:30,680
We fully acknowledge the good
that good people do in the

1874
01:59:30,680 --> 01:59:33,080
world.
And there is much, I mean, like

1875
01:59:33,320 --> 01:59:36,960
my Barbary with all my, I got my
haircut.

1876
01:59:37,000 --> 01:59:40,640
We, we always have these
wonderful conversations because

1877
01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:45,880
this guy is relentless in his
search for truth and his

1878
01:59:45,880 --> 01:59:47,680
understanding of the holy
Scripture.

1879
01:59:48,320 --> 01:59:51,000
He's one of the most interesting
people to talk to in my whole

1880
01:59:51,000 --> 01:59:53,360
life.
He was asking all sorts of

1881
01:59:53,360 --> 01:59:56,280
questions about prophetic
succession in our church, and

1882
01:59:56,280 --> 01:59:58,120
now they're selected and all
that sort of stuff.

1883
01:59:58,120 --> 02:00:05,320
And when it was time to go, I
said, said then you always ask

1884
02:00:05,320 --> 02:00:07,120
the best questions.
And he says, well, that's what

1885
02:00:07,120 --> 02:00:09,200
I'm supposed to do, right?
You know, that's what it's

1886
02:00:09,200 --> 02:00:09,760
about.
All right.

1887
02:00:10,600 --> 02:00:15,160
Now, here's Joseph Smith's
perspective on what he

1888
02:00:15,160 --> 02:00:19,400
experienced versus the other
charismatic spiritual events of

1889
02:00:19,400 --> 02:00:21,840
the day.
Joseph Smith.

1890
02:00:23,080 --> 02:00:26,600
The the things of God edify, and
this is after the fact.

1891
02:00:26,600 --> 02:00:28,840
He understands very clearly the
difference between revelation

1892
02:00:29,520 --> 02:00:33,200
and signs.
For sign seekers, the things

1893
02:00:33,200 --> 02:00:35,160
about edify.
They spiritually support and

1894
02:00:35,160 --> 02:00:38,320
lift us toward a better life.
They bring us closer to our

1895
02:00:38,320 --> 02:00:40,840
Heavenly Father.
The things of Satan do the

1896
02:00:40,840 --> 02:00:43,440
opposite.
No spiritual growth occurs.

1897
02:00:43,840 --> 02:00:47,440
No intelligence is communicated.
We are not edified.

1898
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:51,640
He just described all the rest
of those charismatic events, and

1899
02:00:51,640 --> 02:00:53,080
then he describes them
specifically.

1900
02:00:54,000 --> 02:00:56,400
Others frequently possess a
spirit that will cause them to

1901
02:00:56,400 --> 02:00:59,840
lie down, and during its
operation animation is

1902
02:00:59,840 --> 02:01:04,000
frequently entirely suspended.
They considered to be the power

1903
02:01:04,000 --> 02:01:07,560
of God, and a glorious
manifestation from God.

1904
02:01:08,000 --> 02:01:12,000
A manifestation of what?
Is there any intelligence

1905
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:14,640
communicated?
Are the curtains of heaven

1906
02:01:14,640 --> 02:01:17,120
withdrawn, or the purposes of a
God developed?

1907
02:01:18,080 --> 02:01:21,600
Have they seen and converse with
an Angel, or have the glories of

1908
02:01:21,600 --> 02:01:26,240
futurity burst upon their view?
No, but their body has been

1909
02:01:26,240 --> 02:01:28,920
inanimate.
The operation of their spirit is

1910
02:01:28,920 --> 02:01:31,560
suspended, and all the
intelligence that can be

1911
02:01:31,560 --> 02:01:34,200
obtained from them when they
arise as a shot of glory, or

1912
02:01:34,200 --> 02:01:37,320
Hallelujah, or some incoherent
expression.

1913
02:01:37,840 --> 02:01:41,840
But they have had the power,
Holy cow, he goes on.

1914
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:48,000
The shaker will whirl around on
his heel, impelled by a

1915
02:01:48,000 --> 02:01:52,320
supernatural agency or spirit,
and think that he is governed by

1916
02:01:52,320 --> 02:01:54,920
the Spirit of God, and the
jumper will jump and enter to

1917
02:01:54,920 --> 02:01:58,840
all kinds of extravagances.
A primitive Methodist will shout

1918
02:01:58,840 --> 02:02:02,200
under the influence of that
spirit until he will render the

1919
02:02:02,200 --> 02:02:06,600
heavens with his cries, while
the Quakers or friends, moved as

1920
02:02:06,600 --> 02:02:09,880
they think by the Spirit of God,
will sit still and say nothing.

1921
02:02:10,680 --> 02:02:13,800
Is God the author of all of
this, if not all of it?

1922
02:02:13,800 --> 02:02:15,800
Which does?
Which does he recognize?

1923
02:02:15,920 --> 02:02:22,160
Surely such a heterogeneous mass
of confusion can never enter

1924
02:02:22,480 --> 02:02:27,120
into the Kingdom of Heaven.
You could spit some fire when

1925
02:02:27,120 --> 02:02:30,160
you wanted to.
Yeah, and here's a man who was

1926
02:02:30,640 --> 02:02:33,240
clearly intimately acquainted
with all of those

1927
02:02:33,240 --> 02:02:36,960
manifestations, right?
And spoken like a true prophet

1928
02:02:36,960 --> 02:02:39,560
of God.
Hits the nail on the head, says

1929
02:02:39,560 --> 02:02:42,200
what is it?
These are just useless sign

1930
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:43,840
seekers.
They're looking for these

1931
02:02:44,520 --> 02:02:48,120
sensational wowie things that
don't have a thing to do with

1932
02:02:48,120 --> 02:02:51,760
drawing closer to God, for
helping you be a better person

1933
02:02:52,240 --> 02:02:55,160
or giving you insight into your
life or the heavens.

1934
02:02:56,400 --> 02:02:57,840
Right.
And he did.

1935
02:02:57,840 --> 02:03:03,160
The doctrines and he exploded
upon this world are still mind

1936
02:03:03,160 --> 02:03:05,680
boggling.
Now there are those who say,

1937
02:03:05,680 --> 02:03:08,520
well, the first vision is
possible because the Bible says

1938
02:03:08,520 --> 02:03:10,600
that no man has seen God at any
time.

1939
02:03:12,760 --> 02:03:15,280
Yeah, I love this one.
So I just pulled up.

1940
02:03:15,880 --> 02:03:19,120
Well, how many is that?
I don't know 20 scriptures or so

1941
02:03:19,680 --> 02:03:23,720
from the Bible explicitly
stating that men have seen God.

1942
02:03:24,840 --> 02:03:28,040
How does that square with no man
has seen God any type from the

1943
02:03:28,040 --> 02:03:30,760
scriptures.
Well leave it to the Prophet

1944
02:03:30,760 --> 02:03:32,240
Joseph Smith to answer that
question.

1945
02:03:32,240 --> 02:03:36,240
Doctrine Covenants Section 67,
verses 10 through 13.

1946
02:03:36,240 --> 02:03:39,920
And again rarely I say to you
that it is your privilege, and

1947
02:03:39,920 --> 02:03:42,920
this is God speaking, and a
promise I give unto you that

1948
02:03:42,920 --> 02:03:46,360
have been ordained unto this
ministry, that in as much so if

1949
02:03:46,360 --> 02:03:51,480
you will strip yourselves from
jealousies and fears and humble

1950
02:03:51,480 --> 02:03:54,440
yourselves before me, for you
are not sufficiently humble.

1951
02:03:55,600 --> 02:04:01,720
It's a purification process.
The veil shall be rent, and you

1952
02:04:01,720 --> 02:04:07,400
shall see me and know that I am
not with the carnal, neither the

1953
02:04:07,400 --> 02:04:10,840
natural mind.
So not with our eyes of flesh,

1954
02:04:11,640 --> 02:04:13,600
but with the spiritual.
Why?

1955
02:04:14,440 --> 02:04:17,720
For no man.
Now here's the correction to the

1956
02:04:17,720 --> 02:04:20,160
New Testament Scripture that was
incomplete.

1957
02:04:20,720 --> 02:04:28,000
No man has seen God at any time
in the flesh except quickened by

1958
02:04:28,000 --> 02:04:30,840
the Spirit of God.
Quickened means to be made

1959
02:04:30,840 --> 02:04:32,960
alive.
Right.

1960
02:04:33,280 --> 02:04:35,520
That's why the first vision is
the vision.

1961
02:04:35,960 --> 02:04:38,280
It was his spirit.
He saw that vision.

1962
02:04:38,280 --> 02:04:41,800
God and the Father alive in
spirit.

1963
02:04:41,800 --> 02:04:47,040
And Even so, if your spirit is
insufficiently pure, it will do

1964
02:04:47,040 --> 02:04:50,480
to you what it did to Alma the
Younger and Saul, later Paul.

1965
02:04:50,840 --> 02:04:54,480
It'll almost kill you.
Verse 13.

1966
02:04:55,120 --> 02:05:00,720
You are not able to abide the
presence of God now, nor neither

1967
02:05:00,720 --> 02:05:03,840
the ministering of angels.
So seeing God, you'd have to be

1968
02:05:04,360 --> 02:05:07,560
your spirit, have to qualify for
the celestial degree of purity

1969
02:05:07,800 --> 02:05:10,320
to see the ministering of
angels, to have to be of a

1970
02:05:10,320 --> 02:05:16,000
terrestrial state.
And until we get there, God

1971
02:05:16,000 --> 02:05:19,640
communicates with us through the
Holy Ghost, his Holy Spirit,

1972
02:05:19,640 --> 02:05:25,080
which which is also dependent
upon pure personal purity to the

1973
02:05:25,240 --> 02:05:28,240
to the degree that we are pure,
we will have an abundance of the

1974
02:05:28,240 --> 02:05:32,160
Holy Spirit.
Wherefore continue in patience

1975
02:05:32,520 --> 02:05:39,200
until you are perfected.
And I'm quite sure that the use

1976
02:05:39,200 --> 02:05:43,000
of that word there is reliant
upon the the New Testament usage

1977
02:05:43,000 --> 02:05:47,400
of the word perfected, the Greek
version of which is finished.

1978
02:05:48,560 --> 02:05:50,440
Right.
Until you're finished.

1979
02:05:50,760 --> 02:05:57,800
All right.
Oh, OK, Here's a question for

1980
02:05:57,800 --> 02:06:02,640
you.
Comparing the first vision to

1981
02:06:02,640 --> 02:06:09,440
the account of Muroni's visit.
Very, very different with the

1982
02:06:09,440 --> 02:06:11,040
Angel.
And this, this always struck me.

1983
02:06:11,840 --> 02:06:14,880
You read his account of the
Angel Muroni and it is verbatim

1984
02:06:16,160 --> 02:06:22,080
word for word and it's a lot.
It was just Joseph was taking

1985
02:06:22,080 --> 02:06:25,040
dictation.
Why the difference?

1986
02:06:30,040 --> 02:06:38,760
Me, hold on, I got it.
I In my opinion, I think Moroni

1987
02:06:38,760 --> 02:06:44,440
is probably giving him direct
instructions on things to do.

1988
02:06:45,440 --> 02:06:50,920
Correct how many times?
If we look at at Joseph's first

1989
02:06:50,920 --> 02:06:54,920
vision, it's both personal.
It does give some illusions

1990
02:06:54,920 --> 02:06:58,280
that, hey, we're going to be
doing some things later here,

1991
02:06:58,760 --> 02:07:03,240
but it's, it's much more
personal in nature here.

1992
02:07:03,240 --> 02:07:08,040
Moroni is coming on, you know,
on the Lord's errand and

1993
02:07:08,040 --> 02:07:12,920
basically like, you need to do
these things here.

1994
02:07:13,440 --> 02:07:17,000
That's all true, and I don't,
I'm not quoting anybody.

1995
02:07:17,000 --> 02:07:20,760
This is just something from the
Book of Ken, which was super

1996
02:07:20,760 --> 02:07:22,680
interesting to me.
It kind of bothered me at first.

1997
02:07:22,680 --> 02:07:26,120
It's like, this is weird.
Why would Moroni wake him up

1998
02:07:26,120 --> 02:07:31,440
three times to do this?
Moroni appeared to him three

1999
02:07:31,440 --> 02:07:35,400
times and told him exactly the
same thing, like a broken

2000
02:07:35,400 --> 02:07:36,320
record.
Why?

2001
02:07:37,040 --> 02:07:41,760
So that he wouldn't forget
anything, you know?

2002
02:07:43,800 --> 02:07:45,240
Oh, go ahead.
Sorry, no you.

2003
02:07:45,600 --> 02:07:50,160
What is What is Moroni's role in
this particular vision?

2004
02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:56,240
He's the instructor.
Yes, the messenger.

2005
02:07:56,880 --> 02:07:59,360
And this is consistent with all
of Scripture.

2006
02:08:00,880 --> 02:08:03,400
Right.
So God comes analysis and

2007
02:08:03,400 --> 02:08:05,520
Gabriel announces to marry the
birth of Christ.

2008
02:08:06,120 --> 02:08:10,400
And then there did these
messengers come to do all of the

2009
02:08:10,400 --> 02:08:12,800
work.
God himself doesn't do the

2010
02:08:12,800 --> 02:08:15,080
messenger work.
That's up to us.

2011
02:08:16,080 --> 02:08:20,200
They're both resurrected beings
in the spirit world and

2012
02:08:20,200 --> 02:08:25,560
immortality.
Very interesting to me because,

2013
02:08:25,600 --> 02:08:29,280
I mean, you know, the scriptures
that Moroni quotes to Joseph

2014
02:08:29,280 --> 02:08:34,640
Smith are very like the Malachi
scriptures are slightly

2015
02:08:34,640 --> 02:08:36,880
different in extremely
significant ways.

2016
02:08:38,320 --> 02:08:42,320
I love that, love that.
Absolutely.

2017
02:08:42,720 --> 02:08:45,840
I think it also, you know the
fact it's three times, I think

2018
02:08:45,840 --> 02:08:48,080
that has a lot of significance,
right?

2019
02:08:49,400 --> 02:08:51,160
You got it all over the
Scriptures.

2020
02:08:51,160 --> 02:08:54,720
Holy, holy, holy, right?
Verily, thus saith the Lord.

2021
02:08:54,720 --> 02:08:56,600
Verily, verily, verily, thus
saith the word.

2022
02:08:56,600 --> 02:09:00,040
There's something about the
repetition of three that seems

2023
02:09:00,040 --> 02:09:03,200
to carry some deep.
Spiritual connotations that how

2024
02:09:03,200 --> 02:09:06,640
many times, how many times do I
have to hear somebody's name

2025
02:09:06,640 --> 02:09:09,920
before I remember it?
Three times.

2026
02:09:10,080 --> 02:09:12,720
Yeah.
Yep.

2027
02:09:13,200 --> 02:09:15,040
Absolutely.
That's amazing.

2028
02:09:17,360 --> 02:09:19,360
So what makes a convincing
witness?

2029
02:09:19,360 --> 02:09:22,200
We talked a little bit about
this with your law enforcement

2030
02:09:22,200 --> 02:09:26,080
friend, and then we're going to
talk here about how memory

2031
02:09:26,080 --> 02:09:28,360
works.
Joseph's account of his first

2032
02:09:28,360 --> 02:09:31,960
vision represent the event as he
experienced it both at both at

2033
02:09:31,960 --> 02:09:36,640
the time and overtime.
Because our perspective changes,

2034
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:41,200
most memory evaporates.
Historian Stephen C Harper

2035
02:09:41,200 --> 02:09:42,640
explained, wrote a beautiful
book on this.

2036
02:09:43,240 --> 02:09:47,480
But when we focus on something
repeatedly, it is processed into

2037
02:09:47,480 --> 02:09:51,120
a second memory.
So, as if it's important enough,

2038
02:09:51,120 --> 02:09:53,960
we keep going over it.
Our memory gets clearer over

2039
02:09:53,960 --> 02:09:56,760
time.
Secondary memories are more

2040
02:09:56,760 --> 02:09:59,280
stable over time and are
strengthened by making emotional

2041
02:09:59,280 --> 02:10:02,720
connections to our experiences.
Long term memory is also

2042
02:10:02,720 --> 02:10:06,880
improved when we are conscious
that we are remembering.

2043
02:10:06,880 --> 02:10:10,320
This means that important events
in our life can be more easily

2044
02:10:10,320 --> 02:10:14,280
remembered, but peripheral
details often become fuzzy or

2045
02:10:14,280 --> 02:10:15,880
can slip from our minds all
together.

2046
02:10:16,760 --> 02:10:20,560
Like Joseph's first vision.
What day it was, I don't know.

2047
02:10:21,040 --> 02:10:25,760
I think it was in my 14th year.
But how he felt and the

2048
02:10:25,760 --> 02:10:27,440
significance of it never left
him.

2049
02:10:28,000 --> 02:10:30,600
Joseph Smith's account of the
First Vision, remarks Harper

2050
02:10:30,600 --> 02:10:35,160
abound with these attributes of
memory, actual memory.

2051
02:10:35,680 --> 02:10:39,800
Joseph indicated both strong
emotional connections and a meta

2052
02:10:39,800 --> 02:10:43,680
awareness indicative that he was
deliberately and consciously

2053
02:10:43,680 --> 02:10:47,240
remembering his feelings.
In the stump, the acts in the

2054
02:10:47,240 --> 02:10:50,840
stump, yeah, right.
His feelings, awareness, that's

2055
02:10:50,840 --> 02:10:55,480
where you are in a different,
you're in a different state of

2056
02:10:55,480 --> 02:10:58,160
being and it affects your
consciousness, right.

2057
02:10:58,440 --> 02:11:03,240
So as he's looking around that
meta awareness, I remember the

2058
02:11:03,240 --> 02:11:08,520
axe in the stump, or in the case
of Isaac Potts, I remember how

2059
02:11:08,520 --> 02:11:12,480
Washington prayed there when
something big happens.

2060
02:11:12,720 --> 02:11:15,080
I love that word meta awareness,
right?

2061
02:11:15,480 --> 02:11:18,960
You are taking everything in.
You are deliberate about what

2062
02:11:18,960 --> 02:11:21,560
you're casting your eyes upon
'cause you know it's important.

2063
02:11:22,240 --> 02:11:26,200
His feelings were deep and his
mind became seriously impressed.

2064
02:11:26,800 --> 02:11:29,000
This kind of And he's quoting
him.

2065
02:11:29,360 --> 02:11:33,360
This kind of language saturates
his detailed accounts.

2066
02:11:33,800 --> 02:11:37,440
Joseph's memories seem
especially keen when they recall

2067
02:11:37,440 --> 02:11:41,040
thoughts and the strong emotions
he associated with them.

2068
02:11:41,520 --> 02:11:44,320
Joseph's accounts also
illuminate the features of both

2069
02:11:44,320 --> 02:11:47,840
factual memory, recollection of
objective details, and

2070
02:11:47,840 --> 02:11:51,480
interpretive memory, the meaning
or significance that he assigned

2071
02:11:51,480 --> 02:11:54,320
to the experience.
Interpretive memories grow and

2072
02:11:54,320 --> 02:11:58,000
change over time because they
are shaped by events subsequent

2073
02:11:58,000 --> 02:12:00,760
to the episode being remembered.
So the details of the first

2074
02:12:00,760 --> 02:12:05,320
vision didn't change, but their
significance.

2075
02:12:05,840 --> 02:12:07,960
They take on added significance
as he changes.

2076
02:12:08,880 --> 02:12:14,200
That's a feature of real memory.
Thus, each of Joseph's accounts

2077
02:12:14,200 --> 02:12:16,560
reflect different emphases and
details, in part because they

2078
02:12:16,560 --> 02:12:21,080
reflect what his vision meant to
him at different stages in his

2079
02:12:21,080 --> 02:12:23,520
life.
That's genuine.

2080
02:12:25,280 --> 02:12:32,280
This does not mean what?
This does not mean that Joseph

2081
02:12:32,280 --> 02:12:34,320
was misremembering or making
experiences up.

2082
02:12:35,120 --> 02:12:38,000
Rather, it simply means that
some recollections of his First

2083
02:12:38,000 --> 02:12:41,680
Vision may not have been as
marked and intense as Joseph

2084
02:12:41,680 --> 02:12:43,520
later remembered them to have
been.

2085
02:12:44,240 --> 02:12:47,680
As Harper put it, an outward
observer would not likely

2086
02:12:47,680 --> 02:12:50,000
interpret these events as
intensely as Joseph Smith

2087
02:12:50,000 --> 02:12:53,360
subjectively did.
To the contrary, the fact that

2088
02:12:53,360 --> 02:12:57,000
Joseph's accounts bear all the
hallmarks, including the

2089
02:12:57,000 --> 02:13:00,520
limitations of human memory
strongly suggests that these are

2090
02:13:00,520 --> 02:13:04,600
authentic memories, meaning this
is not a story Joseph just

2091
02:13:04,600 --> 02:13:06,720
made-up or fabricated.
He is remembering a real

2092
02:13:06,720 --> 02:13:10,600
experience he had in the woods
as a boy, Harper concludes.

2093
02:13:13,160 --> 02:13:15,520
Joseph created human memories of
his first vision.

2094
02:13:16,280 --> 02:13:19,120
They revealed vivid memories of
elements of the experience that

2095
02:13:19,120 --> 02:13:22,840
deeply impressed him.
Anxious uncertainty prior to the

2096
02:13:22,840 --> 02:13:26,600
theophany, the epiphany that
resulted from reading and

2097
02:13:26,600 --> 02:13:31,320
reflecting you know, that struck
obstructed the heart of man more

2098
02:13:31,320 --> 02:13:34,880
deeply than any other.
The feeling of love and

2099
02:13:34,880 --> 02:13:38,320
redemption from the Theophany.
The reality of the vision

2100
02:13:38,320 --> 02:13:41,080
itself.
Interpretive and introspective

2101
02:13:41,080 --> 02:13:44,360
memories are present as well.
The accounts are not, by

2102
02:13:44,360 --> 02:13:47,000
Joseph's own admission, A
flawless recreation of the

2103
02:13:47,000 --> 02:13:50,880
event, nor are they a complete
fabrication of life events.

2104
02:13:50,880 --> 02:13:54,800
Despite distortions and limits
in recounting the experience,

2105
02:13:55,280 --> 02:14:00,080
Joseph's accounts generally
exhibit continuity, and that's

2106
02:14:00,080 --> 02:14:03,400
over his lifespan.
Moreover, they communicate to

2107
02:14:03,400 --> 02:14:07,120
seekers Joseph's memories of how
he experienced the Vision at the

2108
02:14:07,120 --> 02:14:09,640
time and how he remembered it
over time.

2109
02:14:11,800 --> 02:14:15,240
So the fact that it wasn't just
the same rehearsed and story

2110
02:14:15,240 --> 02:14:18,960
each time is indicative of the
fact that it was a genuine event

2111
02:14:18,960 --> 02:14:22,440
that he was still interpreting
as he grew.

2112
02:14:27,240 --> 02:14:31,200
This is one of the coolest
things I've ever read regarding

2113
02:14:31,200 --> 02:14:36,080
the first vision.
The man in the painting is named

2114
02:14:36,080 --> 02:14:40,680
Arthur Henry King.
He was trained as a

2115
02:14:40,680 --> 02:14:45,680
stylistician.
Stylistician is a person who

2116
02:14:45,680 --> 02:14:49,400
studies stylistics, the analysis
of linguistic style,

2117
02:14:49,400 --> 02:14:54,480
particularly in written texts.
The man's British, the bastion

2118
02:14:54,480 --> 02:14:57,000
of English poetry and writing,
you know.

2119
02:14:57,600 --> 02:14:59,800
Few years back, I started to get
the feeling that we, as

2120
02:14:59,800 --> 02:15:02,960
fundamentalists and orthodox
Mormons, we need our own stuff.

2121
02:15:03,360 --> 02:15:05,920
Up to now, we've been able to
buy and purchase all of our

2122
02:15:05,920 --> 02:15:09,680
scriptures, books, art, and
music from other restoration

2123
02:15:09,680 --> 02:15:11,840
organizations, and that's been
good.

2124
02:15:12,080 --> 02:15:14,680
But there's no guarantee it's
going to remain that way.

2125
02:15:15,200 --> 02:15:18,600
Also, it can be a bit tricky to
scour the Internet trying to

2126
02:15:18,600 --> 02:15:21,760
find all the books from your
favorite fundamentalist or

2127
02:15:21,760 --> 02:15:25,120
orthodox Mormon authors.
As I thought about this, I feel

2128
02:15:25,120 --> 02:15:27,960
like I was really given a
solution now through the hard

2129
02:15:27,960 --> 02:15:31,040
work of others, because let's
face it, I'm the guy least

2130
02:15:31,040 --> 02:15:33,160
qualified in all the world to
build a website.

2131
02:15:33,560 --> 02:15:36,840
I'm happy to present to you 1830
mercantile.org.

2132
02:15:37,480 --> 02:15:40,520
Right now on the website you can
see that we have all the books

2133
02:15:40,520 --> 02:15:43,520
that have ever been written by 4
authors, including names like

2134
02:15:43,520 --> 02:15:47,280
Drew, Briny and Ogdenkraut.
Also very soon there will be a

2135
02:15:47,280 --> 02:15:51,920
link to buy art and music all
produced by Mormons with a deep

2136
02:15:51,920 --> 02:15:55,280
love for the restored gospel.
There's also places for you to

2137
02:15:55,280 --> 02:15:59,600
get free resources where you can
find podcast videos, classes,

2138
02:15:59,600 --> 02:16:03,320
and other presentations.
Also coming very soon there will

2139
02:16:03,320 --> 02:16:06,520
be a place for events where you
can list the events from your

2140
02:16:06,520 --> 02:16:10,280
organization so that you can get
the most out of that attendance.

2141
02:16:10,840 --> 02:16:13,240
Now this can be as big as you
want it to be.

2142
02:16:13,240 --> 02:16:16,280
It's all up to you guys out
there if you want to buy and

2143
02:16:16,280 --> 02:16:19,040
post things on here.
Now, if you're someone who

2144
02:16:19,040 --> 02:16:22,240
produces something that you feel
like others can benefit from,

2145
02:16:22,520 --> 02:16:26,000
1830 Mercantile is a place where
you can make all of those

2146
02:16:26,000 --> 02:16:29,360
products available for purchase.
All you need to do is drop me an

2147
02:16:29,360 --> 02:16:32,440
e-mail at
mormonrenegade@gmail.com and put

2148
02:16:32,440 --> 02:16:36,760
1830 in in the title of that
e-mail with a short message and

2149
02:16:36,760 --> 02:16:39,920
either myself or someone else
from the 1830 Mercantile team

2150
02:16:40,120 --> 02:16:42,879
will reach out to you so we can
get your product up there on the

2151
02:16:42,879 --> 02:16:47,200
site.
Now to make sure that all the

2152
02:16:47,200 --> 02:16:50,879
products that we offer are
affordable and to ensure that

2153
02:16:50,879 --> 02:16:55,360
the vast majority of the profits
go to the producer, the website

2154
02:16:55,360 --> 02:16:59,320
percentage is only three to 4%
of the total cost.

2155
02:16:59,320 --> 02:17:02,120
And that's just so I can pay the
pros that have created this

2156
02:17:02,120 --> 02:17:04,680
website and keep the lights on
the website itself.

2157
02:17:05,520 --> 02:17:08,559
Finally, by making some of your
purchases at 1830

2158
02:17:08,559 --> 02:17:11,920
mercantile.org, you'll be
supporting folks whose

2159
02:17:11,920 --> 02:17:15,200
principles and morals are close,
if not the same as yours.

2160
02:17:15,400 --> 02:17:18,879
At the same time not giving your
money away to people who stand

2161
02:17:18,879 --> 02:17:20,879
against everything you stand
for.

2162
02:17:21,240 --> 02:17:24,240
So no matter if you're looking
to make a purchase or you're a

2163
02:17:24,240 --> 02:17:27,480
seller that wants to get your
products listed, head on over to

2164
02:17:27,480 --> 02:17:32,200
1830 mercantile.org today.
Drop me an e-mail and we'll make

2165
02:17:32,200 --> 02:17:33,480
sure that we get back out to
you.

2166
02:17:33,680 --> 02:17:36,879
Now back to the show.
Shakespeare, saucer, all that

2167
02:17:36,879 --> 02:17:40,680
stuff this man would know.
They analyze how language is

2168
02:17:40,680 --> 02:17:43,719
used to create meaning and
effect, focusing on the specific

2169
02:17:43,719 --> 02:17:45,959
choices of words, grammar, and
sentence structure that define a

2170
02:17:45,959 --> 02:17:50,080
particular text or author.
A stylistician uses tools from

2171
02:17:50,080 --> 02:17:53,959
linguistics to examine both
literary and non literary works

2172
02:17:53,959 --> 02:17:56,559
to understand how style is
constructed and how it

2173
02:17:56,559 --> 02:18:00,520
influences interpretation.
Get a load of his life.

2174
02:18:01,840 --> 02:18:05,719
Born in England to Quaker
parents, Arthur Henry King, born

2175
02:18:05,719 --> 02:18:08,840
1910, died 2000.
What a lifespan.

2176
02:18:09,920 --> 02:18:14,120
Graduated with the University of
Cambridge in 1931.

2177
02:18:14,799 --> 02:18:17,440
Went on to earn his doctorate
from the University of London,

2178
02:18:17,440 --> 02:18:20,240
Sweden.
He taught English and English

2179
02:18:20,240 --> 02:18:25,120
literature for 14 years at the
universities Inland and

2180
02:18:25,120 --> 02:18:29,000
Stockholm.
For 28 years he served on the

2181
02:18:29,000 --> 02:18:32,639
British Council, which
supervises overseas educational

2182
02:18:32,639 --> 02:18:34,639
and cultural affairs for the
British government.

2183
02:18:35,440 --> 02:18:38,240
He was twice decorated by Queen
Elizabeth, the Second for his

2184
02:18:38,240 --> 02:18:42,959
work.
Then in 1966, he joined the

2185
02:18:42,959 --> 02:18:48,480
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints, Wow, and in 1971

2186
02:18:48,480 --> 02:18:52,280
joined the faculty the Brigham
Young University Go Cougs.

2187
02:18:53,240 --> 02:18:56,400
Following his retire from BYU,
he presided over the London

2188
02:18:56,400 --> 02:19:01,920
England Temple of the Church.
He's seen some stuff.

2189
02:19:02,879 --> 02:19:04,920
Yeah, yeah, he's got, he's got
quite a resume.

2190
02:19:05,639 --> 02:19:07,959
Get this.
This is what he says about First

2191
02:19:07,959 --> 02:19:13,760
Vision.
When I was first brought to read

2192
02:19:13,760 --> 02:19:15,879
Joseph Smith's story, I was
deeply impressed.

2193
02:19:17,200 --> 02:19:19,400
I wasn't inclined to be
impressed.

2194
02:19:20,120 --> 02:19:22,719
As a stylistician.
I have spent my life being

2195
02:19:22,719 --> 02:19:29,680
disinclined to be impressed.
So when I read his story, I

2196
02:19:29,680 --> 02:19:33,360
thought to myself, this is an
extraordinary thing.

2197
02:19:34,360 --> 02:19:40,000
This is an astonishingly matter
of fact and cool account.

2198
02:19:41,480 --> 02:19:45,719
This man is not trying to
persuade me of anything.

2199
02:19:46,440 --> 02:19:49,360
And this, this rings so true to
me because I felt the same.

2200
02:19:49,720 --> 02:19:52,520
Anyway, he doesn't feel the need
to.

2201
02:19:53,320 --> 02:19:56,960
He is stating what happened to
him, and he is stating it not

2202
02:19:56,960 --> 02:20:00,800
enthusiastically, but in quite a
matter of fact way.

2203
02:20:01,480 --> 02:20:05,080
He is not trying to make me cry
or feel ecstatic.

2204
02:20:05,960 --> 02:20:09,240
Think about it.
That struck me and that began to

2205
02:20:09,240 --> 02:20:13,680
build my testimony, for I could
see that this man was telling

2206
02:20:13,680 --> 02:20:16,840
the truth.
He goes on.

2207
02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:19,760
I am not good enough to write a
passage as good as that.

2208
02:20:20,840 --> 02:20:23,960
That is beautiful.
He's speaking as an expert on

2209
02:20:23,960 --> 02:20:27,400
poetry.
Well balanced prose.

2210
02:20:28,120 --> 02:20:30,880
And it isn't the prose of
someone who is trying to work it

2211
02:20:30,960 --> 02:20:34,720
out and make it nice.
It is the prose of someone who

2212
02:20:34,720 --> 02:20:39,640
is trying to tell it like it is,
who is bending all his faculties

2213
02:20:40,160 --> 02:20:45,600
to expressing the truth and not
thinking about anything else.

2214
02:20:47,840 --> 02:20:52,280
And above all, the writing about
Joseph Smith, not thinking about

2215
02:20:52,280 --> 02:20:56,600
Joseph Smith, not thinking about
the effect he's going to have on

2216
02:20:56,600 --> 02:21:01,800
others, not posturing, not
posing, but just being himself.

2217
02:21:03,080 --> 02:21:05,080
There's no self aggrandizing in
any of it.

2218
02:21:06,080 --> 02:21:15,400
There never is in his writing.
He was on to say, there is no

2219
02:21:15,400 --> 02:21:18,240
passage in mystical literature
or in any other kind of

2220
02:21:18,240 --> 02:21:21,440
literature concerned with
visions that I know of, which is

2221
02:21:21,440 --> 02:21:25,360
like this, and therefore I am
not prepared to give credence to

2222
02:21:25,360 --> 02:21:27,440
other mystical passages outside
the Scriptures.

2223
02:21:27,960 --> 02:21:30,800
I know the difference.
I am thinking about Saint

2224
02:21:30,800 --> 02:21:33,960
Bridget, who lived in Sweden in
the 14th century and whose life

2225
02:21:33,960 --> 02:21:38,400
I have studied in some detail.
She had her ecstatic visions.

2226
02:21:38,960 --> 02:21:42,240
I'm thinking about Saint Teresa,
that great Spanish St.

2227
02:21:42,240 --> 02:21:45,120
He wasn't quite sure whether
Christ was her Lord or her

2228
02:21:45,120 --> 02:21:47,920
husband.
They don't compare with Joseph

2229
02:21:47,920 --> 02:21:50,920
Smith, they added.
They attitude.

2230
02:21:52,000 --> 02:21:57,040
Attitude denies they get into
postures, contortions of mind

2231
02:21:57,280 --> 02:22:01,800
and expressing themselves.
Not so Joseph Smith, he

2232
02:22:01,800 --> 02:22:04,560
concludes by saying.
Think of Joseph Smith as a man

2233
02:22:05,080 --> 02:22:08,240
who speaks to our time from
eternity.

2234
02:22:09,640 --> 02:22:14,000
Wow.
So when you read his revelations

2235
02:22:14,720 --> 02:22:18,920
and even his musings about it,
it's they're not the thoughts of

2236
02:22:18,920 --> 02:22:24,200
the average of a, of a man,
they're above the thinking of

2237
02:22:24,200 --> 02:22:27,360
man.
And to hear it so eloquently

2238
02:22:27,360 --> 02:22:29,880
from someone who knows this
stuff, that was extraordinary to

2239
02:22:29,880 --> 02:22:32,320
me.
Oh yeah, this is a guy who's

2240
02:22:32,320 --> 02:22:34,400
used to being able.
You know it.

2241
02:22:34,480 --> 02:22:36,200
It sounds like from based on
what?

2242
02:22:36,200 --> 02:22:39,120
A stylist is a stylistician.
Excuse me?

2243
02:22:39,720 --> 02:22:44,600
This is a guy who who looks for
the subtle nuances of the way

2244
02:22:44,600 --> 02:22:48,080
one speaks or rights.
It's going to pick up on what

2245
02:22:48,080 --> 02:22:51,840
your end goal is, right?
And so at the top, he says.

2246
02:22:51,960 --> 02:22:55,080
I spent my life being
disinclined to be impressed.

2247
02:22:55,160 --> 02:22:56,480
Right.
Yeah.

2248
02:22:57,360 --> 02:23:01,760
So, so in Joseph's case, he's
not picking up any of the stuff

2249
02:23:01,760 --> 02:23:07,000
that you would expect anybody
else that somebody else would if

2250
02:23:07,000 --> 02:23:12,480
you're trying to to pose or
posture or have an ulterior

2251
02:23:12,480 --> 02:23:14,120
motive for the story you're
telling.

2252
02:23:14,320 --> 02:23:19,040
Or I would say no, no sign of
trying to manipulate the reader.

2253
02:23:19,880 --> 02:23:21,480
Right.
He's telling it straight.

2254
02:23:22,640 --> 02:23:34,520
Nice.
OK, here we are at the end.

2255
02:23:36,080 --> 02:23:41,680
You made it.
The end here is entitled.

2256
02:23:42,520 --> 02:23:45,200
So what?
What really happened in the

2257
02:23:45,200 --> 02:23:47,640
first vision?
And I'm going to give you 3

2258
02:23:47,640 --> 02:23:52,840
things that kind of blow this
wide open.

2259
02:23:53,800 --> 02:23:56,480
This is the full Orson Pratt
account where he describes the

2260
02:23:56,480 --> 02:23:59,600
light.
He Joseph continued praying

2261
02:23:59,600 --> 02:24:02,120
while the light appeared to be
gradually descending toward him.

2262
02:24:02,800 --> 02:24:05,000
As it drew nearer, it increased
in brightness and magnitude.

2263
02:24:05,480 --> 02:24:08,560
So by the time it reached the
tops of the trees, the whole

2264
02:24:08,560 --> 02:24:12,800
wilderness for some distance
around was illuminated in a most

2265
02:24:12,800 --> 02:24:17,680
glorious and brilliant manner.
He expected to have seen the

2266
02:24:17,680 --> 02:24:20,560
leaves and boughs of the trees
consumed as soon as the light

2267
02:24:20,560 --> 02:24:22,880
came in contact with them, but
perceiving that it did not

2268
02:24:22,880 --> 02:24:26,440
produce that effect, he was
encouraged with the hopes of

2269
02:24:26,440 --> 02:24:27,920
being able to endure its
presence.

2270
02:24:29,160 --> 02:24:33,000
It continued descending slowly
until it rested upon the earth,

2271
02:24:33,000 --> 02:24:34,880
and he was enveloped in the
midst of it.

2272
02:24:35,480 --> 02:24:38,440
When it first came upon him, it
produced a peculiar sensation

2273
02:24:39,400 --> 02:24:43,120
throughout his whole system, and
immediately his mind was caught

2274
02:24:43,120 --> 02:24:46,800
away from the natural objects
with which he was surrounded,

2275
02:24:47,440 --> 02:24:50,960
and he was enwrapped in a
heavenly vision and saw two

2276
02:24:50,960 --> 02:24:54,880
glorious personages who exactly
resemble each other in their

2277
02:24:54,880 --> 02:24:57,760
features or likeness.
That sensation that he

2278
02:24:57,760 --> 02:25:01,600
describes, it's probably what it
feels like to be quickened in

2279
02:25:01,600 --> 02:25:05,640
the spirit.
So Ken, I something else just

2280
02:25:05,640 --> 02:25:09,680
jumped out at me here that I I
probably read that one part 1000

2281
02:25:09,680 --> 02:25:11,560
times and it never hit me till
just now.

2282
02:25:13,200 --> 02:25:17,880
When Moses goes up to the mount
and he sees the burning Bush.

2283
02:25:17,880 --> 02:25:20,960
How does he describe it?
It's on fire, but it's not.

2284
02:25:20,960 --> 02:25:22,200
But it's not burning.
Yeah.

2285
02:25:22,760 --> 02:25:25,120
What does Joseph say there?
Same thing.

2286
02:25:25,800 --> 02:25:34,960
Same thing.
I find a striking piece of

2287
02:25:34,960 --> 02:25:39,080
information that corresponds
with another from thousands of

2288
02:25:39,080 --> 02:25:41,840
years back.
Dave is just just another one of

2289
02:25:41,840 --> 02:25:45,400
them coincidences, those pesky.
Well, here's the thing too,

2290
02:25:45,400 --> 02:25:49,800
about all of this, about Joseph
Smith's experiences and his

2291
02:25:49,800 --> 02:25:53,760
teachings, that they are
consistent, all of it.

2292
02:25:54,560 --> 02:25:57,680
And there's precedent in Old
Testament, New Testament

2293
02:25:57,680 --> 02:26:03,360
Scripture, and I have to mention
my book and in hundreds,

2294
02:26:03,840 --> 02:26:08,440
hundreds, thousands.
Of extra Mormon doctor in the

2295
02:26:08,440 --> 02:26:12,040
Apocrypha, Mormon Mormon
doctrine in the apocrypha.

2296
02:26:12,040 --> 02:26:14,400
That's right, that's right.
I got that.

2297
02:26:14,400 --> 02:26:17,800
But it's such a great book.
Everybody should go to Amazon

2298
02:26:18,080 --> 02:26:21,960
and just grab Mormon Mormonism
in the Apocrypha.

2299
02:26:22,240 --> 02:26:25,800
Mormon doctrine.
Kind of like Mormon doctrine in

2300
02:26:25,800 --> 02:26:29,400
the Apocrypha.
I it it I'm tipping my hat to

2301
02:26:29,400 --> 02:26:30,920
Bruce Mcconkey's Mormon
doctrine.

2302
02:26:31,040 --> 02:26:34,560
That's which is not perfect, but
wow was it ahead of its time

2303
02:26:35,160 --> 02:26:38,880
anyway.
And here's the verse we kind of

2304
02:26:38,880 --> 02:26:43,600
skip over in the official
account, verse 20, He God again

2305
02:26:43,600 --> 02:26:49,160
forbade me or Christ to join
with any of them and many other

2306
02:26:49,160 --> 02:26:52,320
things that He's saying to me
which I cannot write at this

2307
02:26:52,320 --> 02:26:56,120
time and to our knowledge never
did.

2308
02:26:57,200 --> 02:26:59,800
And when I came to myself again,
I found myself lying on my back,

2309
02:26:59,800 --> 02:27:02,760
looking up into heaven.
When the light had departed, I

2310
02:27:02,760 --> 02:27:05,000
had no strength, but soon,
recovering to some degree, I

2311
02:27:05,000 --> 02:27:06,880
went home.
Here's the funny part.

2312
02:27:07,560 --> 02:27:10,040
And as as I leaned up to the
fireplace, Mother inquired.

2313
02:27:10,040 --> 02:27:13,560
But the matter was, I replied,
never mind, all is well, I am

2314
02:27:13,560 --> 02:27:16,360
well enough off.
Then I said to my mother, I have

2315
02:27:16,360 --> 02:27:18,720
learned for myself that
Presbyterianism is not true.

2316
02:27:23,480 --> 02:27:24,880
That's the first time he told
anything.

2317
02:27:25,920 --> 02:27:27,480
Even they hinted at what he'd
been through.

2318
02:27:29,600 --> 02:27:35,600
And here's the other thing, the
1835 account, a pillar of fire

2319
02:27:36,400 --> 02:27:39,520
appeared above my head.
That's different from 1838,

2320
02:27:39,520 --> 02:27:44,400
where he said pillar of light.
We'll talk about that which

2321
02:27:44,400 --> 02:27:48,360
presently rested down upon me
and filled me with unspeakable

2322
02:27:48,360 --> 02:27:51,880
joy.
A light filling you with joy.

2323
02:27:52,440 --> 02:27:54,920
A personage appeared in the
midst of the pillar of flame.

2324
02:27:56,080 --> 02:27:59,600
Pillar of flame now, which was
spread all around, and yet

2325
02:27:59,600 --> 02:28:02,320
nothing consumed.
There you are again, Moses.

2326
02:28:03,160 --> 02:28:05,800
Another personage soon appeared
like unto the first.

2327
02:28:05,800 --> 02:28:07,800
He said unto me, Thy sins have
forgiven me.

2328
02:28:08,840 --> 02:28:13,960
He testified also unto me that
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

2329
02:28:14,840 --> 02:28:17,640
I saw many angels in this
vision.

2330
02:28:20,640 --> 02:28:22,120
That's that's crazy in two
respects.

2331
02:28:27,000 --> 02:28:29,240
The 1832 account to Joseph's
handwriting.

2332
02:28:29,240 --> 02:28:32,640
He gets to as he gets to the
vision, he wrote that he saw a

2333
02:28:32,640 --> 02:28:35,040
pillar of fire.
But then he stops writing for a

2334
02:28:35,040 --> 02:28:38,720
while and before he continues
the account, he crossed out the

2335
02:28:38,720 --> 02:28:41,200
word fire and inserted the word
light.

2336
02:28:45,120 --> 02:28:47,600
The finished sentence then read
a pillar of light above the

2337
02:28:47,600 --> 02:28:50,760
brightness of the sun that
noonday came down from above and

2338
02:28:50,760 --> 02:28:53,600
rested on me.
He replaced fire with light.

2339
02:28:54,400 --> 02:28:56,640
And it's only in reading the
manuscript that we can detect

2340
02:28:56,640 --> 02:28:59,840
this moment, which Joseph
struggled to know which word to

2341
02:28:59,840 --> 02:29:01,680
use to describe the light that
descended from heaven.

2342
02:29:01,680 --> 02:29:04,200
Why was it such a big deal?
Because he's trying to describe

2343
02:29:04,200 --> 02:29:07,680
it accurately.
The speaker goes on.

2344
02:29:07,680 --> 02:29:11,240
What I think we, what I think we
see here is the difficulty

2345
02:29:11,240 --> 02:29:13,560
Joseph experienced in describing
his first vision.

2346
02:29:14,080 --> 02:29:16,040
How do you describe the light
that's brighter than any light

2347
02:29:16,040 --> 02:29:19,000
you've ever seen?
How do you describe the divine

2348
02:29:19,440 --> 02:29:23,840
within the constraints of mortal
language, which he struggled

2349
02:29:23,840 --> 02:29:25,840
with throughout all of his
scripture?

2350
02:29:26,240 --> 02:29:29,720
Joseph described his exact
struggle in a letter he wrote to

2351
02:29:29,720 --> 02:29:33,160
W Phelps about this about the
same time.

2352
02:29:33,840 --> 02:29:37,280
In that 1832 letter, he lamented
the difficulty of right of the

2353
02:29:37,280 --> 02:29:40,680
writing process for describing
the sights, sounds, and feelings

2354
02:29:40,680 --> 02:29:44,000
of visions and revelations.
He described the writing process

2355
02:29:44,000 --> 02:29:49,320
as quote, a little narrow
prison, almost as it were, total

2356
02:29:49,320 --> 02:29:53,480
darkness of paper and pen and
ink and crooked, scattered,

2357
02:29:53,760 --> 02:29:59,280
imperfect language which
inevitably failed to live up to

2358
02:29:59,280 --> 02:30:01,240
the experience.
And who?

2359
02:30:02,040 --> 02:30:04,200
Who?
Could possibly understand that

2360
02:30:04,200 --> 02:30:07,680
other than the person who would
actually experienced it, who

2361
02:30:07,680 --> 02:30:10,800
would complain about?
Yeah, no.

2362
02:30:10,800 --> 02:30:13,320
And, and, and again, that would
track, right?

2363
02:30:13,560 --> 02:30:17,680
With that type of a vision that
totally tracks that you would

2364
02:30:17,680 --> 02:30:23,400
just be at odds at trying to get
to convey the appropriate

2365
02:30:25,680 --> 02:30:27,720
feelings that would accompany
that.

2366
02:30:28,400 --> 02:30:30,640
For Joseph Smith, writing was
hard in the 1st place.

2367
02:30:30,640 --> 02:30:33,120
It was even harder when writing
about divine visions.

2368
02:30:33,560 --> 02:30:35,680
In the different accounts of the
First Vision, then we see varied

2369
02:30:35,680 --> 02:30:38,560
language to tell a consistent
story, also a sign of

2370
02:30:38,560 --> 02:30:41,000
truthfulness.
And we often see Joseph working

2371
02:30:41,000 --> 02:30:43,600
to find just the right words to
describe what he had

2372
02:30:43,600 --> 02:30:46,400
experienced, which brings us to
fire, etcetera.

2373
02:30:48,680 --> 02:30:54,960
In this book Mormon Doctrine in
the Apocrypha, pages 142 to page

2374
02:30:54,960 --> 02:31:00,840
155 are all of the extra
canonical references I can find

2375
02:31:02,200 --> 02:31:06,920
relative to this phenomena
describing this pillar of light.

2376
02:31:08,680 --> 02:31:12,560
And notice it's called various
things in these different

2377
02:31:12,560 --> 02:31:17,760
accounts called A pillar of
light, a cloud of light, a

2378
02:31:17,760 --> 02:31:23,280
conduit of light, a light
stream, a pillar of fire,

2379
02:31:23,760 --> 02:31:30,080
streams of flaming fire, stream
of light, tongues of fire, and

2380
02:31:30,080 --> 02:31:36,120
glorious portals.
They're all describing the same

2381
02:31:36,120 --> 02:31:41,160
phenomenon.
And it seeing those various

2382
02:31:41,160 --> 02:31:44,280
subscriptions kind of helps us
understand what the heck that

2383
02:31:44,280 --> 02:31:48,520
is.
So personally speaking, having

2384
02:31:48,520 --> 02:31:52,960
read practically all of the
recorded theophanies and ancient

2385
02:31:52,960 --> 02:31:57,920
sacred texts which I have, the
above citation in my book

2386
02:31:57,920 --> 02:32:04,920
includes 30, no less than 31
examples of sacred texts where

2387
02:32:04,920 --> 02:32:09,760
in all of those above terms are
used to try to describe the same

2388
02:32:10,160 --> 02:32:12,600
indescribable manifestation of
the power of God.

2389
02:32:13,360 --> 02:32:16,360
So Joseph's struggle is
identical to the ancient

2390
02:32:16,360 --> 02:32:19,600
prophets.
Yeah, he's he's treading

2391
02:32:19,600 --> 02:32:22,360
familiar ground to to his
prophetic calling.

2392
02:32:23,360 --> 02:32:27,400
So like when I read that, you
know, fire or light, I'm going,

2393
02:32:27,480 --> 02:32:32,960
wow, that sounds familiar.
In that same section, there are

2394
02:32:32,960 --> 02:32:37,920
17 of those examples from these
ancient texts wherein the

2395
02:32:37,920 --> 02:32:41,040
appearance of angels and
heavenly beings accompany the

2396
02:32:41,040 --> 02:32:43,880
pillar of light.
That is also perfectly

2397
02:32:43,880 --> 02:32:47,760
consistent with ancient sacred
texts now.

2398
02:32:47,880 --> 02:32:51,640
As make does make you wonder now
about the the the pillar of fire

2399
02:32:51,640 --> 02:32:55,040
that was seen following the
children of Israel too.

2400
02:32:56,080 --> 02:32:58,640
You think?
Or the pillar of fire that

2401
02:32:58,640 --> 02:33:00,720
landed upon the altar in front
of Lehigh.

2402
02:33:01,640 --> 02:33:05,640
Or the pillar of light that
freed Alma in prison and didn't

2403
02:33:05,640 --> 02:33:08,680
burn him and didn't harm him?
Change him a little bit.

2404
02:33:09,200 --> 02:33:17,400
Now, we could be done here,
depending, or we could actually

2405
02:33:17,400 --> 02:33:21,120
read those extra canonical
accounts about the Pillar of

2406
02:33:21,120 --> 02:33:23,120
Light and the accompanying
angels.

2407
02:33:23,920 --> 02:33:29,040
Let's do that.
So I didn't have I didn't have a

2408
02:33:29,040 --> 02:33:33,320
chance to put that in that.
So I'm just this is straight

2409
02:33:33,320 --> 02:33:40,520
from my my notes.
So first Phoenix 49, the first

2410
02:33:40,520 --> 02:33:44,000
one here, and I saw the sons of
the holy angels walking upon the

2411
02:33:44,000 --> 02:33:46,880
flame of fire.
He's describing that the flame

2412
02:33:46,880 --> 02:33:51,080
of fire is transporting them.
Their garments were white and

2413
02:33:51,080 --> 02:33:54,920
their overcoats and the light of
their faces was like snow.

2414
02:33:54,920 --> 02:34:00,320
Where have we heard that before?
Good job Joseph 3rd in it page

2415
02:34:00,320 --> 02:34:05,720
278, the cherubim stand beside
the holy creatures, and their

2416
02:34:05,720 --> 02:34:07,920
wings are raised.
The cherubim are also when they

2417
02:34:07,920 --> 02:34:10,040
talk about the vision of the
throne of God.

2418
02:34:10,040 --> 02:34:12,320
These cherubim are always there,
just like on the mercy seat

2419
02:34:13,160 --> 02:34:17,720
right and the holy holy seat,
and their wings are raised up to

2420
02:34:17,720 --> 02:34:19,160
the height of their heads.
The Shekinah.

2421
02:34:20,880 --> 02:34:24,080
The Shekinah is the veil of
light, otherwise known as the

2422
02:34:24,080 --> 02:34:28,520
glory of the Lord, that fills
the temple whenever Jehovah's

2423
02:34:28,520 --> 02:34:30,640
there.
Right.

2424
02:34:31,040 --> 02:34:33,480
Pillar of light.
Pillar of fire, anybody?

2425
02:34:33,640 --> 02:34:38,640
Cloud of light, the Shekinah.
The Shekinah rests upon the

2426
02:34:38,640 --> 02:34:43,040
backs of the cherubim.
This is I I haven't quite

2427
02:34:43,040 --> 02:34:45,240
figured this out because the
chairman also significant in

2428
02:34:45,240 --> 02:34:48,080
transporting people, even the
Savior, which is why he sits on

2429
02:34:48,080 --> 02:34:50,560
the mercy seat.
The Shekinah rests.

2430
02:34:50,640 --> 02:34:55,120
The whole pillar of light rests
on their backs, and the splendor

2431
02:34:55,120 --> 02:34:59,560
of the glory is on their faces
and song and praise are in their

2432
02:34:59,560 --> 02:35:00,840
mouths.
They're they're great singers.

2433
02:35:00,840 --> 02:35:04,080
Apparently their hands are under
their wings and their feet are

2434
02:35:04,080 --> 02:35:06,760
covered by their wings.
The horns of glory are on their

2435
02:35:06,760 --> 02:35:08,680
head.
Horns of glory are radiating

2436
02:35:09,240 --> 02:35:11,800
light.
The brilliance of the shakena is

2437
02:35:11,800 --> 02:35:14,040
on their countenances.
In the shakena that's upon their

2438
02:35:14,040 --> 02:35:16,760
backs, sapphire stones surround
them.

2439
02:35:17,120 --> 02:35:20,720
Pillars of fire are on their
four sides.

2440
02:35:21,520 --> 02:35:30,040
Pillars of flame flank them.
So when we are having a view of

2441
02:35:30,040 --> 02:35:36,920
the throne of God, the pillar of
fire, pillar of flame is all

2442
02:35:36,920 --> 02:35:39,320
around.
It gets better.

2443
02:35:42,600 --> 02:35:48,800
Apocalypse of Elijah page 750 On
that day the Christ will pity

2444
02:35:48,800 --> 02:35:54,160
those who are his own, and he
will send from heaven his 64,000

2445
02:35:54,160 --> 02:35:58,960
angels, each of whom has 6 wings
which is most likely symbolic.

2446
02:36:00,040 --> 02:36:04,040
The sound will move heaven and
earth, and they give praise and

2447
02:36:04,040 --> 02:36:07,960
glorify.
Now those upon whose forehead is

2448
02:36:07,960 --> 02:36:14,200
the name of Christ is written,
and upon whose hand is the seal,

2449
02:36:18,400 --> 02:36:21,040
both the small and the great,
will be taken up upon their

2450
02:36:21,040 --> 02:36:23,720
wings and lifted up before His
wrath.

2451
02:36:24,640 --> 02:36:29,400
Then Gabriel and Uriel will
become a pillar of light leading

2452
02:36:29,400 --> 02:36:32,600
them into the Holy Land.
It will, it will be granted to

2453
02:36:32,600 --> 02:36:38,800
them to eat from the tree of
Life which accompanies the

2454
02:36:38,800 --> 02:36:40,800
white.
Oh yeah, and there's that white

2455
02:36:40,800 --> 02:36:42,560
garment thing.
They will wear white garments

2456
02:36:42,560 --> 02:36:45,960
and angels will watch over them.
They will not thirst, nor will

2457
02:36:45,960 --> 02:36:48,960
the Son of lawlessness be able
to prevent over them.

2458
02:36:48,960 --> 02:36:53,000
So presence of God, Shakina,
Tree of life, all are a part of

2459
02:36:53,000 --> 02:36:55,800
this, the pillar of life, this
cloud of light.

2460
02:36:57,320 --> 02:36:59,400
That one was dripping with
temple imagery.

2461
02:37:01,840 --> 02:37:05,240
Oh, you're just seeing things.
Yeah.

2462
02:37:05,280 --> 02:37:10,440
Behold, Apocalypse of Peter,
page 635.

2463
02:37:10,560 --> 02:37:12,840
And behold, there came suddenly
a voice from heaven saying, This

2464
02:37:12,840 --> 02:37:16,680
is my son, whom I love and in
whom I have pleasure and my

2465
02:37:16,680 --> 02:37:17,960
commands.
We've discovered a fifth

2466
02:37:17,960 --> 02:37:20,240
account, the Father announcing
the son.

2467
02:37:20,240 --> 02:37:21,720
Holy cow.
Yeah, that one.

2468
02:37:21,960 --> 02:37:25,440
That is interesting where the
Father introduces the Son.

2469
02:37:26,520 --> 02:37:28,960
This is my son.
And there came a great and

2470
02:37:28,960 --> 02:37:35,280
exceeding white cloud over our
heads, and bore away our Lord,

2471
02:37:35,280 --> 02:37:39,040
and Moses and Elias.
It transports them again.

2472
02:37:39,840 --> 02:37:42,800
And I trembled and was afraid.
And we looked up, and the

2473
02:37:42,800 --> 02:37:45,560
heavens opened, and we saw men
in the flesh.

2474
02:37:45,800 --> 02:37:49,880
So accompanying this cloud, this
pillar of light, they saw men in

2475
02:37:49,880 --> 02:37:51,320
the flesh.
And they came and greeted our

2476
02:37:51,320 --> 02:37:54,640
Lord and Moses and Elias, and
went into the 2nd heaven.

2477
02:37:54,960 --> 02:37:58,400
We would say angels and the word
of the Scripture was fulfilled.

2478
02:37:58,960 --> 02:38:01,760
This generation seeketh him and
seeketh the face of the God of

2479
02:38:01,760 --> 02:38:03,520
Jacob.
And great fear and great

2480
02:38:03,520 --> 02:38:06,840
amazement took place in heaven,
and the angels flocked together

2481
02:38:07,640 --> 02:38:09,720
that the word of the Scripture
might be fulfilled, which saith

2482
02:38:09,720 --> 02:38:12,160
open the gates.
See Princess, So angels, they

2483
02:38:12,160 --> 02:38:14,160
love to be there for these
celebratory events.

2484
02:38:14,160 --> 02:38:15,960
I think of the birth of the
Savior.

2485
02:38:16,840 --> 02:38:19,520
Right.
Glory to God in the highest.

2486
02:38:20,360 --> 02:38:22,760
But you would look.
He's on a goodwill toward men.

2487
02:38:23,480 --> 02:38:30,120
To one of Joseph's other other
one of the things he said he saw

2488
02:38:30,120 --> 02:38:34,040
in the first vision, you know,
concourses of angels sort of

2489
02:38:34,040 --> 02:38:36,640
speak, sort of say it would make
sense, right?

2490
02:38:36,640 --> 02:38:41,080
If the veil is now burst upon
the earth and the restoration

2491
02:38:41,080 --> 02:38:48,320
has begun, that's probably only
second in importance to the

2492
02:38:48,320 --> 02:38:52,680
birth of the Savior.
Yeah, well, I would, I would

2493
02:38:52,680 --> 02:38:55,240
include the resurrection at the
very top, then the birth.

2494
02:38:55,280 --> 02:38:58,840
Well, second.
Yeah, but restoration for sure,

2495
02:38:59,680 --> 02:39:02,520
for sure.
OK, Open the gates.

2496
02:39:02,520 --> 02:39:04,320
He Princess.
After that the heaven was shut

2497
02:39:04,480 --> 02:39:06,240
that had been opened and we
prayed and went down for the

2498
02:39:06,240 --> 02:39:08,600
mountain and we pray.
So this is the mount of this is

2499
02:39:08,600 --> 02:39:10,920
a different description of the
mount of fence figuration.

2500
02:39:11,320 --> 02:39:13,680
So it's not a new one.
It's one of the three where God

2501
02:39:13,680 --> 02:39:16,360
announces His Son who has
written the names of the

2502
02:39:16,360 --> 02:39:19,000
righteous in heaven, the Book of
Life, the Apocalypse of Thomas.

2503
02:39:22,120 --> 02:39:26,240
Oh, this is a wonderful new
prophecy of the second coming

2504
02:39:26,920 --> 02:39:29,960
new to us.
And at the 4th hour of the 6th

2505
02:39:29,960 --> 02:39:33,280
day there will be a great voice
in heaven.

2506
02:39:34,200 --> 02:39:38,600
The firmament of heaven will be
split from east to West, and

2507
02:39:38,640 --> 02:39:41,760
Angel and the angels of the
heavens will look out on the

2508
02:39:41,800 --> 02:39:44,280
earth through the rents in the
heavens.

2509
02:39:44,280 --> 02:39:47,600
And all men who are on earth
will see the angelic coast

2510
02:39:47,600 --> 02:39:50,880
looking out from heaven.
Then all men will flee into the

2511
02:39:50,880 --> 02:39:54,160
tombs and hide themselves from
before the righteous angels, and

2512
02:39:54,160 --> 02:39:57,480
say, oh, that the earth would
open and swallow us.

2513
02:39:57,480 --> 02:39:58,960
That's straight out of the Book
of Mormon.

2514
02:39:59,880 --> 02:40:02,080
Yep.
For such things will happen as

2515
02:40:02,080 --> 02:40:04,840
never happened since this world
was created.

2516
02:40:05,400 --> 02:40:08,400
Then they will see me as I come
down from heaven, in the light

2517
02:40:08,400 --> 02:40:15,280
of my Father, fill of light, and
the power and honor of the holy

2518
02:40:15,280 --> 02:40:16,360
angels.
It's all there.

2519
02:40:17,200 --> 02:40:19,400
Then at my arrival, the
restraint on the fire of

2520
02:40:19,400 --> 02:40:26,600
Paradise will be loosed as the
shechena or Paradise is enclosed

2521
02:40:26,600 --> 02:40:29,120
with fire.
And this is the eternal fire

2522
02:40:29,120 --> 02:40:32,880
which devours the earthly globe
and all the elements of the

2523
02:40:32,880 --> 02:40:34,040
world.
This is how the earth will be

2524
02:40:34,040 --> 02:40:37,480
purified.
Then the spirits and souls of

2525
02:40:37,480 --> 02:40:42,200
the Saints will come forth from
Paradise and come into all the

2526
02:40:42,240 --> 02:40:46,840
earth, and each go to its own
body where it is laid up.

2527
02:40:47,800 --> 02:40:50,480
And each of them will say, Here
my body is laid up.

2528
02:40:51,320 --> 02:40:53,640
And when the great voice of
those spirits is heard, there

2529
02:40:53,640 --> 02:40:57,160
will be an earthquake everywhere
in the earth, and the force of

2530
02:40:57,160 --> 02:40:59,160
that earthquake in the mountains
will be shattered above the

2531
02:40:59,160 --> 02:41:02,520
rocks beneath.
Then each spirit will return to

2532
02:41:02,520 --> 02:41:05,640
its own vessel, and the bodies
of the Saints who sleep will

2533
02:41:05,640 --> 02:41:07,920
rise.
Then their bodies will be

2534
02:41:07,920 --> 02:41:10,760
changed into the image and
likeness and honor of the holy

2535
02:41:10,760 --> 02:41:14,840
angels and the power of the
image of My Holy Father.

2536
02:41:15,120 --> 02:41:19,680
Then they will put on the
garment of eternal life, the

2537
02:41:19,680 --> 02:41:24,400
garment from the cloud of light
which has never been seen in

2538
02:41:24,400 --> 02:41:27,000
this world.
For this cloud comes down from

2539
02:41:27,000 --> 02:41:30,280
the upper Kingdom of the heavens
by the power of My Father, and

2540
02:41:30,280 --> 02:41:35,400
will invest with its glory every
spirit that has believed in Me.

2541
02:41:36,120 --> 02:41:39,680
Then they will be clothed, and,
as I said to you before, born by

2542
02:41:39,680 --> 02:41:42,240
the hands of the holy angels.
Oh, there, that's again.

2543
02:41:43,160 --> 02:41:46,600
Then they will be carried off in
a cloud of light into the air.

2544
02:41:46,600 --> 02:41:49,520
Here we go again, transporting
us and rejoicing.

2545
02:41:49,520 --> 02:41:53,520
Go with me into the heavens, and
remain in the light and honor of

2546
02:41:53,520 --> 02:41:56,080
my Father.
Then there will be great joy for

2547
02:41:56,080 --> 02:41:58,000
them in the presence of my
Father and in the presence of

2548
02:41:58,000 --> 02:42:01,240
the holy angels.
These are the signs of the 6th

2549
02:42:01,280 --> 02:42:04,080
day.
So he then laid the body of our

2550
02:42:04,080 --> 02:42:07,400
Father Adam in his place, and
said to Melchizedek, Take from

2551
02:42:07,400 --> 02:42:10,320
Shem the bread and the wine.
And he took them as the Angel

2552
02:42:10,320 --> 02:42:13,120
told him to do.
Oh, bread and wine, the

2553
02:42:13,120 --> 02:42:15,640
Melchizedek.
And action, yeah.

2554
02:42:16,960 --> 02:42:19,720
Stood praying by the body of our
Father Adam until the evening

2555
02:42:20,080 --> 02:42:23,880
when a great light came down
upon the body, and angels

2556
02:42:23,880 --> 02:42:25,880
ascended and descended in that
place.

2557
02:42:26,520 --> 02:42:30,120
Huh.
There we go again upon the body

2558
02:42:30,120 --> 02:42:32,320
of our Father Adam.
And they were rejoicing and

2559
02:42:32,320 --> 02:42:35,160
praising and saying, Glory be to
the O God, we just create the

2560
02:42:35,160 --> 02:42:39,880
world's plural, and made his men
of the dust of the earth to

2561
02:42:39,880 --> 02:42:41,960
exalt them above heavenly
beings.

2562
02:42:46,720 --> 02:42:48,600
That's not Mormon doctrine.
I don't know what it is.

2563
02:42:52,160 --> 02:42:57,280
The angels thus praised God over
the body of our Father Adam and

2564
02:42:57,280 --> 02:42:59,240
the whole of that city.
Angels love to celebrate this

2565
02:42:59,240 --> 02:43:00,480
whole plan.
It's crazy.

2566
02:43:01,440 --> 02:43:03,040
The whole of the night until the
dawn of the day.

2567
02:43:03,480 --> 02:43:05,840
But as the sun rose, the word of
God came from Lechizik, and said

2568
02:43:05,840 --> 02:43:09,640
to him, Arise and take 12 of
these stones, and make an altar,

2569
02:43:10,120 --> 02:43:13,440
and offer upon it the bread and
wine that was with Shem, and

2570
02:43:13,440 --> 02:43:16,960
offer them thou and he.
And while Mechezdek heard the

2571
02:43:16,960 --> 02:43:20,000
word of God, he worshipped
between his hands, and he

2572
02:43:20,000 --> 02:43:21,640
hastened, and did as God
commanded him.

2573
02:43:22,160 --> 02:43:24,800
And at at the time he was
offering the gift upon the

2574
02:43:24,800 --> 02:43:27,840
altar, and asked God to
sanctify, the Holy Ghost came

2575
02:43:27,840 --> 02:43:31,120
down on the offering, and the
mountain was filled with light.

2576
02:43:32,520 --> 02:43:39,440
Hmm Shekinah Holy Ghost.
And the Angel said unto him,

2577
02:43:39,440 --> 02:43:42,680
This offering is acceptable unto
God, glory be to him, and

2578
02:43:42,680 --> 02:43:45,280
created earthly man, and has
revealed great mysteries unto

2579
02:43:45,280 --> 02:43:48,040
them.
Then the word of God appeared to

2580
02:43:48,040 --> 02:43:51,440
Melchizedek and said unto him,
Behold, I have made thee priest,

2581
02:43:51,840 --> 02:43:54,640
and thou and Shem shall offer
this offering thou didst make

2582
02:43:54,640 --> 02:43:58,160
1st and in like manner, as thou
didst set up these 12 solid

2583
02:43:58,160 --> 02:44:02,000
foundation stones, I will raise
12 apostles to be the pillars of

2584
02:44:02,000 --> 02:44:05,520
the world, and they are firm in
like manner also.

2585
02:44:05,840 --> 02:44:08,400
This is all Old Testament stuff
prophesying of Christ.

2586
02:44:09,760 --> 02:44:21,080
It's a huge section in my book.
Where was I Allah in the light

2587
02:44:21,080 --> 02:44:22,640
manner?
Also, as thou didst make this

2588
02:44:22,640 --> 02:44:26,720
altar, I will make thee an altar
in the world, and like as thou

2589
02:44:26,720 --> 02:44:29,000
didst make an offering of bread
and wine.

2590
02:44:29,080 --> 02:44:34,640
What does the altar represent?
Jesus, I will make thee an altar

2591
02:44:34,640 --> 02:44:37,760
in the world, and like as thou
didst make an offering bread.

2592
02:44:37,760 --> 02:44:39,200
And why?
I will present the offering of

2593
02:44:39,200 --> 02:44:44,240
my body and blood, first person
who speaketh Jehovah, Jesus, and

2594
02:44:44,240 --> 02:44:46,880
make it to be unto forgiveness
of sins.

2595
02:44:47,440 --> 02:44:50,120
At this place on which thou art
standing in, and in which the

2596
02:44:50,120 --> 02:44:53,240
body of Adam is laid, will I
make a holy place.

2597
02:44:53,680 --> 02:44:55,480
All creatures on earth shall be
blessed in it.

2598
02:44:55,720 --> 02:44:59,760
And now I and in it I will grant
forgiveness unto all who come.

2599
02:44:59,760 --> 02:45:02,240
Hit her.
His crucifixion.

2600
02:45:05,360 --> 02:45:08,360
Then the word of God blessed
Melchizedek, named him priest,

2601
02:45:08,640 --> 02:45:12,280
then went up from him into
heaven in glory and rejoicing

2602
02:45:12,280 --> 02:45:18,040
with his angels.
Yeah, that's his problem.

2603
02:45:18,520 --> 02:45:21,240
The Dead Sea Scrolls thing.
I'm going to read you here.

2604
02:45:22,720 --> 02:45:26,520
The Dead Sea Scrolls.
Whenever you see those ellipses,

2605
02:45:26,520 --> 02:45:29,280
those dots, that means there was
a hole in the manuscript.

2606
02:45:30,880 --> 02:45:36,920
Praise the God of exalt him, God
the glory in the Tabernacle of

2607
02:45:36,920 --> 02:45:40,800
the God of knowledge.
The cherubim fall before him and

2608
02:45:40,800 --> 02:45:44,440
bless him.
As they arise, the quiet voice

2609
02:45:44,440 --> 02:45:48,320
of God is heard, followed by a
tumult of joyous praise.

2610
02:45:48,680 --> 02:45:52,520
As they unfold their wings,
God's quiet voice, still small

2611
02:45:52,520 --> 02:45:56,560
voice is heard again.
The cherubim bless the image of

2612
02:45:56,560 --> 02:46:01,080
the chariot throne.
So these these orbits.

2613
02:46:02,920 --> 02:46:04,920
I had that figured out once.
I'm still working on that.

2614
02:46:05,600 --> 02:46:07,080
That appears above the
firmament.

2615
02:46:07,680 --> 02:46:11,120
Then they joyously acclaim the
splendor of the luminous

2616
02:46:11,120 --> 02:46:13,960
firmament that spreads beneath
his glorious seat.

2617
02:46:14,280 --> 02:46:20,440
So it's all around.
As the wheel beings advance,

2618
02:46:20,880 --> 02:46:27,640
Holy angels come and go.
Between his chariot.

2619
02:46:27,640 --> 02:46:33,440
Throne's glorious wheels appears
something like an utterly holy

2620
02:46:33,720 --> 02:46:38,240
spiritual fire.
All around are what appear to be

2621
02:46:38,240 --> 02:46:44,520
streams of fire resembling
electrum, lightning and shining

2622
02:46:44,520 --> 02:46:48,320
handiwork, comprising wondrous
colors embroidered together,

2623
02:46:48,320 --> 02:46:53,760
pure and glorious, the spirits
of the living God like beings.

2624
02:46:53,760 --> 02:47:00,280
Mormon Doctrine move to and fro,
perpetually following the glory

2625
02:47:00,280 --> 02:47:02,840
of the wondrous Chariots.
I think it's the orbits of the

2626
02:47:02,840 --> 02:47:04,720
world, and that's where they're
going to and from.

2627
02:47:05,920 --> 02:47:09,200
A quiet voice of blessing
accompanies the tumult of their

2628
02:47:09,200 --> 02:47:12,800
movement, and they bless the
Holy One each time they retrace

2629
02:47:12,800 --> 02:47:15,680
their steps.
When they rise up, they do so

2630
02:47:15,680 --> 02:47:18,280
wondrously, and when they settle
down, they stand still.

2631
02:47:18,680 --> 02:47:21,800
The sound of joyous rejoicing
falls silent, and the quiet

2632
02:47:21,800 --> 02:47:24,800
blessing of God spreads through
all the camps of the divine

2633
02:47:24,800 --> 02:47:26,760
beings.
This is like the Grand Central

2634
02:47:26,760 --> 02:47:32,320
Station of the Servants of God.
Right, transporting.

2635
02:47:33,360 --> 02:47:36,560
Oh yeah, a lot of bouncing in
between worlds, so to speak.

2636
02:47:37,000 --> 02:47:41,080
Transporting to and fro via
these streams of light, these

2637
02:47:41,080 --> 02:47:47,840
pillars of light.
As he scrolls, a voice of

2638
02:47:47,840 --> 02:47:51,280
blessing comes from all of his
divisions, telling of his

2639
02:47:51,280 --> 02:47:54,400
glorious firmaments, and his
gates prays with the joyful

2640
02:47:54,400 --> 02:47:58,760
noise when the wise divine
beings enter through glorious

2641
02:47:58,760 --> 02:48:01,960
portals.
And when the holy angels go

2642
02:48:01,960 --> 02:48:06,160
forth to their realms, the
portals through which they enter

2643
02:48:06,160 --> 02:48:09,800
and the gates through which they
exit declare the glory of the

2644
02:48:09,800 --> 02:48:13,840
king, blessing and praising all
the God like spirits each time

2645
02:48:13,840 --> 02:48:15,280
they exit or answer through the
holy gates.

2646
02:48:18,280 --> 02:48:21,200
So this is an intelligent light.
Right.

2647
02:48:24,160 --> 02:48:27,520
Pistol Apostolorum.
And after he Jesus had said

2648
02:48:27,520 --> 02:48:31,560
this, and had ended the
discourse with his apostles, he

2649
02:48:31,560 --> 02:48:35,880
said again to us, Look, after
three days and three hours he

2650
02:48:35,880 --> 02:48:39,800
who sent me will come, that I
may go with him.

2651
02:48:40,280 --> 02:48:42,840
And as he spoke, there was
Thunder and lighting, and an

2652
02:48:42,840 --> 02:48:46,960
earthquake in the heavens
divided, and a bright cloud came

2653
02:48:46,960 --> 02:48:49,840
and took him away.
And the voice said, many angels,

2654
02:48:49,840 --> 02:48:53,600
as they rejoiced and praised,
and said, Assemble us, O priest,

2655
02:48:53,600 --> 02:48:55,400
in the light of glory, Speaking
of Christ.

2656
02:48:55,800 --> 02:48:58,240
And when he had come near to the
firmament of heaven, we heard

2657
02:48:58,240 --> 02:49:03,480
him say, Go in peace.
I think this is the in the book

2658
02:49:03,480 --> 02:49:08,800
of Acts, Christ's descent.
And an Angel announced He shall

2659
02:49:08,800 --> 02:49:12,320
return it like men.
Interesting.

2660
02:49:13,360 --> 02:49:16,600
Joseph and Assanet, One of my
favorite ancient Old Testament

2661
02:49:16,600 --> 02:49:19,600
texts.
Assanet is the bride of Joseph.

2662
02:49:20,960 --> 02:49:25,040
This is before they got married.
This is Austin at recognizing

2663
02:49:25,040 --> 02:49:31,320
that Joseph was a part of God's
faithful as she wasn't, so she

2664
02:49:31,320 --> 02:49:35,000
repented sackcloth and ashes,
and then this is what happened

2665
02:49:35,000 --> 02:49:37,960
to her an Austin.
It kept looking, and behold,

2666
02:49:38,400 --> 02:49:43,160
close to the morning star, the
heaven was torn apart, and great

2667
02:49:43,640 --> 02:49:49,080
and unutterable light appeared.
And Asanet, Asanet saw it and

2668
02:49:49,080 --> 02:49:53,200
fell on her face in the ashes.
And a man came to her from

2669
02:49:53,200 --> 02:49:58,200
heaven via that light and stood
by Asanet's head.

2670
02:49:59,000 --> 02:50:01,520
And he called her.
And he said, Asanet, I called

2671
02:50:01,520 --> 02:50:04,400
her my name.
The rest of the story is even

2672
02:50:04,400 --> 02:50:09,760
better.
He washes her, anoints her with

2673
02:50:09,760 --> 02:50:17,480
oil, gives her a new name and a
holy garment, partakes of a

2674
02:50:17,480 --> 02:50:21,880
sacrament with her, and who her
new name that he gives her is

2675
02:50:22,120 --> 02:50:30,160
city of refuge which I think
only Mormons get because all the

2676
02:50:30,520 --> 02:50:35,720
the the people of the world will
be housed under her.

2677
02:50:35,720 --> 02:50:39,880
Because her children are Ephraim
and Manasseh, all of the non

2678
02:50:39,880 --> 02:50:42,680
Israelites will be adopted into
the House of Ephraim.

2679
02:50:43,680 --> 02:50:46,960
I'm sure it's just a, I'm sure
it's just a coincidence.

2680
02:50:46,960 --> 02:50:48,920
There's no way that, yeah, I
mean.

2681
02:50:50,640 --> 02:50:52,760
When I read this stuff, I can't
even believe it sometimes.

2682
02:50:52,760 --> 02:50:57,200
It's like, how does that happen?
Here's pistol Sophia again.

2683
02:50:57,200 --> 02:51:02,800
Our favorite pistol Sophia is
loaded with it came to pass.

2684
02:51:03,480 --> 02:51:06,640
Loaded.
It came to pass therefore that

2685
02:51:06,640 --> 02:51:09,720
the power which had come out of
the height, that is I, Jesus

2686
02:51:09,720 --> 02:51:13,760
Christ, and that my Father sent
me to save Pistus Sophia.

2687
02:51:13,760 --> 02:51:19,840
Pistus Sophia was a a divine
being, a terrestrial being who

2688
02:51:19,840 --> 02:51:22,760
wanted to descend to the heights
and be like God, and in the

2689
02:51:22,760 --> 02:51:26,880
process ended up going into a
telestial world where Satan and

2690
02:51:26,880 --> 02:51:28,480
his host were trying to steal
her power.

2691
02:51:29,880 --> 02:51:33,920
Sound familiar?
And so she cried out for help,

2692
02:51:34,760 --> 02:51:41,160
and God sends His light stream
and servants to rescue her and

2693
02:51:41,160 --> 02:51:44,360
to quicken her and to resurrect
her and take her into His

2694
02:51:44,360 --> 02:51:48,120
presence.
It's a beautiful thing and the

2695
02:51:48,240 --> 02:51:53,360
the apparently the forces of
evil have 0 defense against the

2696
02:51:53,360 --> 02:51:59,880
pillar of light.
It sent me to save Mississippi

2697
02:51:59,880 --> 02:52:03,560
out of the chaos.
The world that I therefore, and

2698
02:52:03,560 --> 02:52:06,440
also the power of which did go
for me and the soul which I have

2699
02:52:06,440 --> 02:52:09,800
received, had received.
They drew toward one another and

2700
02:52:09,800 --> 02:52:14,720
become a single light stream
which shone very, which shone

2701
02:52:14,720 --> 02:52:17,440
very exceedingly.
I called on Gabriel and Michael

2702
02:52:17,440 --> 02:52:20,680
out of the eons, and I gave unto
them the light stream.

2703
02:52:21,520 --> 02:52:24,680
He bequeathed them this power
and let them go down into the

2704
02:52:24,680 --> 02:52:29,160
chaos to help Pistus Sophia.
And straight away, when they had

2705
02:52:29,160 --> 02:52:32,160
brought down the light stream
into the chaos, it shone most

2706
02:52:32,160 --> 02:52:35,320
exceedingly in the whole of a
chaos and spread itself over all

2707
02:52:35,320 --> 02:52:38,160
their regions.
And when the emanations of the

2708
02:52:38,160 --> 02:52:40,480
Self willed Satan, that senator,
they call them the Self willed,

2709
02:52:42,440 --> 02:52:44,320
he's not finding the will of the
Father.

2710
02:52:45,080 --> 02:52:48,360
It's all about His will.
And I'd seen the great light of

2711
02:52:48,360 --> 02:52:50,280
the stream.
They were terror stricken one

2712
02:52:50,280 --> 02:52:52,560
with another.
And the emanations of self

2713
02:52:52,560 --> 02:52:56,840
willed could not dare to lay
hold of that light stream in the

2714
02:52:56,840 --> 02:53:00,960
dark chaos, nor could they lay
hold of it with the art of the

2715
02:53:00,960 --> 02:53:03,840
devil himself who ruleth over
the emanations.

2716
02:53:06,840 --> 02:53:10,640
And Gabriel and Michael led the
light stream over the body of

2717
02:53:10,640 --> 02:53:14,080
the matter of piss of Sophia.
The pillar of light descended on

2718
02:53:14,080 --> 02:53:20,080
her body and poured into her all
the light powers which the

2719
02:53:20,080 --> 02:53:24,000
wicked they had taken from her,
restored her life.

2720
02:53:25,080 --> 02:53:28,680
It quickened her, and the body
of her matter became shining

2721
02:53:28,680 --> 02:53:30,560
throughout.
And Michael.

2722
02:53:30,560 --> 02:53:33,120
So she's changed.
And Michael and Gabriel, who

2723
02:53:33,120 --> 02:53:35,720
ministered and had brought the
light stream into the chaos,

2724
02:53:36,320 --> 02:53:42,160
will give them the mysteries of
light, the ordinances,

2725
02:53:42,160 --> 02:53:43,680
mysteries, ordinances, same
thing.

2726
02:53:44,000 --> 02:53:44,920
Right.
Yep.

2727
02:53:45,360 --> 02:53:47,680
And the lights which reported
epistle quick into the body for

2728
02:53:47,680 --> 02:53:54,200
matter.
This is Sophie again, Apostle

2729
02:53:54,200 --> 02:53:57,120
Peter says.
And the word which thy Jesus

2730
02:53:57,120 --> 02:54:00,280
Christ power has spoken, when
they, Michael and Gabriel, had

2731
02:54:00,360 --> 02:54:02,680
poured the lights in epistle,
they quicken the body for

2732
02:54:02,680 --> 02:54:04,800
matter, which is the point of
perishing.

2733
02:54:05,640 --> 02:54:10,080
And again, the word Wichita
spoken, they are saved through

2734
02:54:10,080 --> 02:54:14,120
water of life eternal.
That is, they are saved through

2735
02:54:14,120 --> 02:54:19,280
the whole light stream.
Wow.

2736
02:54:22,000 --> 02:54:25,000
I am the water, I'm the bread
and the water of life.

2737
02:54:25,880 --> 02:54:30,600
Yep.
Whoever drinketh of this will

2738
02:54:30,600 --> 02:54:34,240
never thirst.
Talking about eternal life and

2739
02:54:34,240 --> 02:54:38,720
literally the light stream is
the water of life, life eternal.

2740
02:54:39,520 --> 02:54:42,040
It's the means of changing and
purifying our bodies.

2741
02:54:42,040 --> 02:54:46,640
It's crazy.
Pisses Sophia I Jesus Christ

2742
02:54:46,640 --> 02:54:48,120
again St.
Gabriel Michael and the great

2743
02:54:48,120 --> 02:54:49,600
light stream that they should
help pisses Sophia.

2744
02:54:49,600 --> 02:54:52,640
And moreover, a light stream
which surrounded pisses Sophia

2745
02:54:52,640 --> 02:54:55,920
and all her side shall most
exceedingly, and pisses Sophia

2746
02:54:55,920 --> 02:54:58,560
boat in the midst of the light,
and a great light being on her

2747
02:54:58,560 --> 02:55:03,320
left and her right and on all
her sides, forming a wreath

2748
02:55:03,880 --> 02:55:06,840
around her head.
Temple symbolism.

2749
02:55:06,840 --> 02:55:10,720
Anybody and all the emanations
of the self willed could not

2750
02:55:10,720 --> 02:55:14,000
bear the shock of the great
light of the stream.

2751
02:55:17,960 --> 02:55:20,680
Bisphia and he who will receive
the One.

2752
02:55:20,680 --> 02:55:22,320
And so this is after Piso
Sophia.

2753
02:55:22,320 --> 02:55:27,000
This is now Christ teach.
So the account of Sophia is the

2754
02:55:27,000 --> 02:55:30,120
first third of the book.
Piso Sophia.

2755
02:55:30,480 --> 02:55:33,720
The last two thirds is Jesus
answering questions of his

2756
02:55:33,720 --> 02:55:35,720
disciples.
Got you.

2757
02:55:37,320 --> 02:55:40,640
So now he's answering the
questions about the mysteries,

2758
02:55:40,640 --> 02:55:46,760
the ordinances, and he who will
receive the one and only word of

2759
02:55:46,760 --> 02:55:50,800
that ordinance, which I, Jesus
Christ, shall now say unto you,

2760
02:55:51,640 --> 02:55:56,240
and all of its types and
figures, and the manner of

2761
02:55:56,240 --> 02:56:00,960
accomplishing its mystery.
For you are perfected, You're

2762
02:56:00,960 --> 02:56:06,000
finished and all perfect, and ye
will accomplish the whole

2763
02:56:06,000 --> 02:56:12,200
knowledge of that ordinance with
its whole economy, or unto you

2764
02:56:12,200 --> 02:56:15,640
all mysteries, ordinances are
entrusted hearken.

2765
02:56:15,640 --> 02:56:21,600
Therefore, now that I may tell
you that mystery, which is oh,

2766
02:56:22,600 --> 02:56:25,560
they don't, they don't write it
down in that case.

2767
02:56:25,560 --> 02:56:32,200
They leave it out on purpose
because it's it's name that you

2768
02:56:32,200 --> 02:56:37,080
shouldn't be uttered outside.
He then who shall receive the

2769
02:56:37,080 --> 02:56:39,480
one and only word of that
mystery which I have told you,

2770
02:56:40,280 --> 02:56:43,040
if He cometh forth out of the
body of matter of the rule,

2771
02:56:43,040 --> 02:56:46,280
rulers mean you die.
And if the retributive receivers

2772
02:56:46,280 --> 02:56:50,080
come and free him, Retributive
receivers are we, We would call

2773
02:56:50,080 --> 02:56:53,520
them angels of death.
All right, Free him from the

2774
02:56:53,520 --> 02:56:54,920
body.
Matters of the rulers, that is,

2775
02:56:54,920 --> 02:56:58,960
those receivers who free the
body all out, who free from the

2776
02:56:58,960 --> 02:57:03,000
body all outgoing souls.
When therefore the retributive

2777
02:57:03,000 --> 02:57:06,520
receivers free the soul which
hath received this one and only

2778
02:57:06,520 --> 02:57:10,200
mystery of the ineffable, which
I've just told you, then it will

2779
02:57:10,200 --> 02:57:14,160
straight away, if it be set free
from the body of matter, that

2780
02:57:14,160 --> 02:57:17,800
spirit become a great light
stream.

2781
02:57:18,520 --> 02:57:20,600
So if you've if you've made
these covenants and you're true

2782
02:57:20,600 --> 02:57:24,560
to them, when you die, you will
become a part of the light

2783
02:57:24,560 --> 02:57:28,200
stream, and the receivers will
be the angels of death will be

2784
02:57:28,200 --> 02:57:30,400
exceedingly afraid of the light
of that soul.

2785
02:57:31,400 --> 02:57:33,960
And the receivers will be made
powerless and fall down and

2786
02:57:33,960 --> 02:57:36,720
desist altogether for fear of
the great light which they have

2787
02:57:36,720 --> 02:57:39,480
seen.
And that soul which receiveth

2788
02:57:39,480 --> 02:57:43,560
the mystery of the ineffable
will soar into the height, being

2789
02:57:43,560 --> 02:57:47,080
a great light stream, and the
receivers will not be able to

2790
02:57:47,080 --> 02:57:50,760
seize it, and will not know how
the way is fashioned upon which

2791
02:57:50,760 --> 02:57:53,360
it will go.
For it becometh a great light

2792
02:57:53,360 --> 02:57:56,680
stream and source into the
height, and no power is able to

2793
02:57:56,680 --> 02:58:00,720
hold it down at all, nor will
they be able to come nigh it at

2794
02:58:00,720 --> 02:58:02,880
all.
But it will pass through all the

2795
02:58:02,880 --> 02:58:04,920
regions of the rulers and the
regions.

2796
02:58:04,920 --> 02:58:15,160
So this is the ultimate mystery,
the ultimate missed ordinance

2797
02:58:16,800 --> 02:58:19,400
and the rulers and all the
regions of the emanations of

2798
02:58:19,400 --> 02:58:22,120
light, And it will not give
answers in any region.

2799
02:58:23,040 --> 02:58:26,240
So the the angels that stand as
Sentinels, the guards that

2800
02:58:26,440 --> 02:58:30,360
right, if you've already made
these covenants, they stand

2801
02:58:30,360 --> 02:58:35,080
aside and will not give answers
in the spirit, will not have to

2802
02:58:35,080 --> 02:58:37,320
give answers in any region
because they'll have no power

2803
02:58:37,320 --> 02:58:38,280
over it.
It's already made those

2804
02:58:38,280 --> 02:58:41,520
covenants, nor giveth it any
apologies, nor giveth it any

2805
02:58:41,520 --> 02:58:43,720
tokens.
Neither will any power of the

2806
02:58:43,720 --> 02:58:45,560
rulers nor any power of the
emanations of the light be able

2807
02:58:45,560 --> 02:58:48,680
to come nigh into that soul.
But all the regions of the

2808
02:58:48,680 --> 02:58:50,800
rulers and all the regions of
the emanations of the light,

2809
02:58:51,200 --> 02:58:57,880
everyone singeth unto it praises
in their regions, in fear or out

2810
02:58:57,880 --> 02:59:03,400
of respect for the light stream
which envelops that soul, until

2811
02:59:03,400 --> 02:59:06,800
it passes through them all and
goeth into the region of the

2812
02:59:06,800 --> 02:59:11,240
inheritance, the celestial of
the Mystery which it hath

2813
02:59:11,240 --> 02:59:17,560
received, that is the Mystery of
the one and only ineffable

2814
02:59:17,760 --> 02:59:22,400
Christ, and until it becometh 1
with its lens, meaning we become

2815
02:59:22,400 --> 02:59:25,200
part of the body of Christ.
Amen.

2816
02:59:25,200 --> 02:59:29,040
I say unto you, it will be in
all the regions in the time a

2817
02:59:29,040 --> 02:59:35,040
man shooteth an arrow.
So all these Ndes people die,

2818
02:59:35,040 --> 02:59:37,240
and then they go, Oh, there's
this tunnel of light, and I went

2819
02:59:37,240 --> 02:59:40,320
through the tunnel of light.
This is how the Pissus Sophia

2820
02:59:40,320 --> 02:59:42,760
describes that tunnel of light.
It tracks right?

2821
02:59:42,760 --> 02:59:46,360
It absolutely tracks it.
Becomes a light stream and your

2822
02:59:46,360 --> 02:59:50,360
spirit will travel from earth.
Chaos to the region of the

2823
02:59:50,360 --> 02:59:53,560
celestial in the time it takes
for a man to shoot an arrow.

2824
02:59:55,760 --> 03:00:00,560
How cool is that?
Oh boy, that even matches some

2825
03:00:00,560 --> 03:00:04,040
stuff that that the Egyptians
had taught right.

2826
03:00:04,280 --> 03:00:09,240
Oh well, for sure that you're,
you're, you're thrusted out into

2827
03:00:09,240 --> 03:00:14,200
the I believe it was towards
Orion's belt, but nonetheless

2828
03:00:14,200 --> 03:00:18,360
this, this idea of being shot
out quickly.

2829
03:00:19,520 --> 03:00:24,240
And, and we also hear this in
Ndes, we there's a lot going on

2830
03:00:24,240 --> 03:00:27,160
here with this pillar of light
that seems to be very indicative

2831
03:00:27,240 --> 03:00:30,320
of what Joseph experiences
certainly.

2832
03:00:30,840 --> 03:00:34,040
It's everywhere and this is this
is my favorite section of my

2833
03:00:34,040 --> 03:00:35,120
book.
When it talks about all this

2834
03:00:35,120 --> 03:00:40,920
stuff, it really fills in some
missing pieces of this.

2835
03:00:41,000 --> 03:00:43,040
Absolutely.
Now, therefore, Amen.

2836
03:00:43,040 --> 03:00:45,520
I say to you, every man who will
receive that mystery of the

2837
03:00:45,520 --> 03:00:50,880
ineffable and accomplish it in
all its types and figures, he is

2838
03:00:50,880 --> 03:00:54,560
a man in the world, but he
towers above all angels, and

2839
03:00:54,560 --> 03:00:57,200
will tower still more above them
all.

2840
03:00:58,440 --> 03:01:01,960
Wow.
Thank you Jesus, this is Sophia

2841
03:01:01,960 --> 03:01:02,800
again.
We're almost done.

2842
03:01:03,680 --> 03:01:05,160
The Savior answered and said it
to Mary.

2843
03:01:05,160 --> 03:01:08,680
Mary asked a lot of questions.
Mary Magdalene, if they receive

2844
03:01:08,680 --> 03:01:11,840
the mystery when still in life,
and if they come out of the

2845
03:01:11,840 --> 03:01:16,040
body, they become light beams
and light streams, and penetrate

2846
03:01:16,600 --> 03:01:19,920
all the regions until they reach
the region of their inheritance,

2847
03:01:20,280 --> 03:01:24,400
your eternal reward.
But if they are sinners and come

2848
03:01:24,400 --> 03:01:28,240
out of the body and have not
repented, and if you perform for

2849
03:01:28,240 --> 03:01:30,480
them the Mr. of the ineffable,
in order that they might be

2850
03:01:30,480 --> 03:01:32,680
removed.
So she talked about vicarious

2851
03:01:32,680 --> 03:01:35,160
work.
Right, she's talking about work

2852
03:01:35,160 --> 03:01:42,000
for the dead.
But these are unrepentant that

2853
03:01:42,000 --> 03:01:47,840
they may be removed.
So if you do vicarious work for

2854
03:01:47,840 --> 03:01:51,200
the people who have not
repented, if you perform the

2855
03:01:51,200 --> 03:01:54,320
mystery of the ineffable, try to
get them removed.

2856
03:01:54,320 --> 03:01:57,000
Out of all the chastises to be
cast into a righteous body,

2857
03:01:58,600 --> 03:02:01,000
which is good, and in hair
select Kingdom was brought into

2858
03:02:01,000 --> 03:02:05,400
the last order of the light,
then they will not be able to

2859
03:02:05,440 --> 03:02:07,840
penetrate the regions, because
they do not perform the mystery

2860
03:02:07,840 --> 03:02:11,440
themselves.
They're unrepentant, but the

2861
03:02:11,440 --> 03:02:14,640
receivers of Melchizedek follow
them and lead them before the

2862
03:02:14,640 --> 03:02:17,480
Virgin of Light, and the
servitors of the judges of the

2863
03:02:17,640 --> 03:02:20,560
rulers make frequent haste to
take those souls and hand them

2864
03:02:20,560 --> 03:02:23,800
over from one to the other until
they lead them before the Virgin

2865
03:02:24,240 --> 03:02:27,560
of Light spirit.
So they have to make that

2866
03:02:27,560 --> 03:02:29,160
repentance.
Instead of going straight to the

2867
03:02:29,160 --> 03:02:32,800
Kingdom of Light, they have to
pass these kingdoms as they make

2868
03:02:32,800 --> 03:02:36,120
repentance.
Revelation of Magi.

2869
03:02:36,280 --> 03:02:41,200
The Revelation of Magi is the
first hand account of the wise

2870
03:02:41,200 --> 03:02:43,320
men.
I was going to.

2871
03:02:43,320 --> 03:02:46,840
Translate if that's what they
referred to as as magi there if

2872
03:02:46,840 --> 03:02:55,000
that was them.
This account is an ancient

2873
03:02:55,120 --> 03:02:59,360
Syriac document discovered in
the Vatican Library, translated

2874
03:02:59,360 --> 03:03:02,080
into English for the first time
in history in 2007.

2875
03:03:03,360 --> 03:03:05,280
So Joseph would have had total
access.

2876
03:03:05,280 --> 03:03:09,800
To that by a Harvard Divinity
Stuart student named Brent

2877
03:03:09,800 --> 03:03:14,400
Landau.
I think that's right from

2878
03:03:14,400 --> 03:03:18,360
Flagstaff, who was always
curious about it and he

2879
03:03:18,360 --> 03:03:21,520
personally recognizes the
similarities it has with LDS

2880
03:03:21,520 --> 03:03:24,160
teachings.
I was got you.

2881
03:03:24,160 --> 03:03:26,160
I emailed and said this is
awesome.

2882
03:03:27,680 --> 03:03:30,920
And when we bathed in the spring
of purific, these are the 12

2883
03:03:30,920 --> 03:03:33,280
wise men waiting for the sign,
the star.

2884
03:03:35,240 --> 03:03:37,960
And we ascended the mountain of
victories, which is where Adam's

2885
03:03:37,960 --> 03:03:42,960
body and the scriptures, the
book of Seth and and the

2886
03:03:43,080 --> 03:03:47,920
treasures.
And we went up and found that

2887
03:03:47,920 --> 03:03:50,600
pillar of light in front of The
Cave.

2888
03:03:52,360 --> 03:03:55,920
That's Brent's.
He's not a Mormon translating

2889
03:03:55,920 --> 03:04:02,560
pillar of light.
And again the great fear came

2890
03:04:02,560 --> 03:04:05,440
upon us, and we knelt upon our
knees and stretched out our

2891
03:04:05,440 --> 03:04:07,160
hands according to our ancient
custom.

2892
03:04:07,880 --> 03:04:08,840
Like it.
Yeah.

2893
03:04:09,280 --> 03:04:16,040
Yeah, I know where you're going.
And we praised in silence the

2894
03:04:16,040 --> 03:04:18,760
vision of its wonders.
And again we saw that heaven had

2895
03:04:18,760 --> 03:04:24,280
been opened like a great gate,
and men of glory carrying the

2896
03:04:24,280 --> 03:04:29,760
star of light upon their hands.
According to the revelation of

2897
03:04:29,760 --> 03:04:32,760
the Magi, the new star was the
pillar of light.

2898
03:04:34,200 --> 03:04:37,480
Interesting.
Which is why it let it could

2899
03:04:37,480 --> 03:04:40,520
lead them to where the Christ
child lay, and it actually

2900
03:04:41,360 --> 03:04:43,840
helped transport them.
Which is why even though they

2901
03:04:43,840 --> 03:04:47,240
were probably from China or
something like that, they could

2902
03:04:47,240 --> 03:04:50,720
travel to Jerusalem in time to
see the newborn child, the

2903
03:04:50,720 --> 03:04:56,600
newborn date.
And they descended and stood

2904
03:04:56,600 --> 03:04:58,960
upon the pillar of light.
There we go again, these angels,

2905
03:04:58,960 --> 03:05:02,640
treading upon this in a manner
speaking, be transported by.

2906
03:05:02,960 --> 03:05:05,440
And the entire mountain was
filled by its light, which

2907
03:05:05,440 --> 03:05:08,720
cannot be uttered by the mouth
of humanity like Joseph.

2908
03:05:09,560 --> 03:05:12,640
And something like the hand of a
small person drew near in our

2909
03:05:12,640 --> 03:05:17,040
eyes from the pillar in the star
at which we could not look, and

2910
03:05:17,040 --> 03:05:19,560
it comforted us.
And we saw the star into The

2911
03:05:19,560 --> 03:05:22,240
Cave of treasures of hidden
mysteries, and The Cave shown

2912
03:05:22,240 --> 03:05:24,240
beyond measure.
And a humble and kind voice made

2913
03:05:24,240 --> 03:05:28,440
itself heard by us, which called
out to us and said to us, Enter

2914
03:05:28,440 --> 03:05:32,360
inside without doubt in love,
and see a great and amazing

2915
03:05:32,360 --> 03:05:33,640
vision.
And we were encouraged and

2916
03:05:33,640 --> 03:05:35,160
comforted by the message of the
voice.

2917
03:05:35,680 --> 03:05:38,160
And we entered being afraid, and
we bowed our knees at the mouth

2918
03:05:38,160 --> 03:05:40,480
of The Cave because of the very
abundance of the light.

2919
03:05:40,480 --> 03:05:43,480
And when we arose at this
command, we lifted our eyes and

2920
03:05:43,480 --> 03:05:46,240
saw that light which is
unspeakable by the mouth of

2921
03:05:46,240 --> 03:05:48,440
human beings.
When the light pillar of light

2922
03:05:48,440 --> 03:05:50,640
first appeared to them, you know
what they saw in the light?

2923
03:05:51,840 --> 03:05:56,400
Jesus Christ who had appeared to
them via the pillar of light to

2924
03:05:56,400 --> 03:05:59,960
announce His own birth, just
like he did in the Book of

2925
03:05:59,960 --> 03:06:04,280
Mormon.
Pretty cool trick.

2926
03:06:05,240 --> 03:06:09,600
Second book of Yeu, last one,
the piss of Sophia says.

2927
03:06:10,400 --> 03:06:12,720
So I'm telling you about these
ordinances.

2928
03:06:12,720 --> 03:06:15,440
If you want to know the
specifics of the details of how

2929
03:06:15,440 --> 03:06:20,920
to do them, and it refers by
name, refer to the books of Yeu

2930
03:06:22,800 --> 03:06:23,680
Jeu.
And we have those two.

2931
03:06:24,280 --> 03:06:25,800
And that's basically a temple
script.

2932
03:06:27,040 --> 03:06:32,280
Really.
Among other things, page 118 you

2933
03:06:32,280 --> 03:06:36,200
yourselves, Jesus is speaking,
My disciples, if you have

2934
03:06:36,200 --> 03:06:39,520
received these mysteries,
ordinances, when you are about

2935
03:06:39,520 --> 03:06:43,800
to come forth from the body, you
will become pure light, and you

2936
03:06:43,800 --> 03:06:47,000
will hasten upward 1 after
another, and go forth to the

2937
03:06:47,000 --> 03:06:49,720
places in which all the eons are
spread out, until you reach the

2938
03:06:49,720 --> 03:06:51,600
treasury of light.
Celestial.

2939
03:06:52,360 --> 03:06:55,960
Then the watchers of the gates
of the treasury of light see the

2940
03:06:55,960 --> 03:06:58,520
mystery of the forgiveness of
sins which you have performed

2941
03:06:59,320 --> 03:07:04,760
that ordinance, and they see the
seal on your foreheads sign, and

2942
03:07:04,760 --> 03:07:08,440
they see the cipher in your
hands.

2943
03:07:09,360 --> 03:07:13,360
Interesting.
Then the nine watchers open to

2944
03:07:13,360 --> 03:07:15,440
you the gates of the treasure of
light, and you go into the

2945
03:07:15,440 --> 03:07:18,720
treasury of Light.
Good night everybody.

2946
03:07:19,960 --> 03:07:24,040
So Joseph is definitely in, in
his description of this pillar

2947
03:07:24,040 --> 03:07:27,320
of light and what he sees in, in
all of his accounts, right?

2948
03:07:28,320 --> 03:07:32,440
It it's definitely holding water
in terms of some things that we

2949
03:07:32,440 --> 03:07:38,680
find later that we're not in
Joseph's reach and.

2950
03:07:38,800 --> 03:07:42,080
None of these.
They're ancient texts that only

2951
03:07:42,080 --> 03:07:45,760
discovered the better part of
100 years after his death.

2952
03:07:46,200 --> 03:07:50,480
Correct, he had no access to
them.

2953
03:07:50,880 --> 03:07:54,720
He was close to being able to
have First Enoch, but as you can

2954
03:07:54,720 --> 03:07:56,800
see, First Enoch is pretty tame
compared to the rest of this

2955
03:07:56,800 --> 03:07:58,960
stuff.
Yeah, absolutely.

2956
03:08:00,480 --> 03:08:06,520
So to wrap this up, I got one
question I do want to ask and,

2957
03:08:06,520 --> 03:08:09,880
and it's, it's the one we get
beat up the most with.

2958
03:08:10,360 --> 03:08:18,360
With Joseph's first vision in
his 1832 account, it is he makes

2959
03:08:18,360 --> 03:08:25,600
mentions that he sees Jesus
Christ only and that's the one

2960
03:08:25,600 --> 03:08:27,480
that they tend to beat us up
with the most.

2961
03:08:27,480 --> 03:08:29,680
Ken, what's your thoughts on
that?

2962
03:08:29,760 --> 03:08:33,800
Why is it that way?
I I would like to get your input

2963
03:08:33,800 --> 03:08:37,000
on that.
Let's go to that.

2964
03:08:37,000 --> 03:08:44,280
Let me see everyone find which.
There we go, girl.

2965
03:08:44,280 --> 03:08:48,480
Great price Central.
Did both the father and son

2966
03:08:48,480 --> 03:08:50,280
appear to Joseph Smith in the
First Division?

2967
03:08:51,280 --> 03:08:54,160
In the earliest extant first
hand account of his vision,

2968
03:08:54,160 --> 03:08:58,320
Joseph did not explicitly
specify that two personages

2969
03:08:58,320 --> 03:09:01,840
appeared to him, but rather that
first, the Lord opened the

2970
03:09:01,840 --> 03:09:05,280
heavens quote UN quote, the Lord
opened the heavens upon him, and

2971
03:09:05,280 --> 03:09:09,280
second, he saw the Lord.
This has LED some historians to

2972
03:09:09,280 --> 03:09:12,120
wonder how, if at all, this
might be reconciled with

2973
03:09:12,120 --> 03:09:15,880
Joseph's other accounts, which
do moreoverly specify that two

2974
03:09:15,880 --> 03:09:17,600
personages the fatherless son
appeared to him.

2975
03:09:18,440 --> 03:09:20,960
James Allen and John Welch
provide one persuasive reading

2976
03:09:20,960 --> 03:09:23,840
of the historical sources that
finds agreement among other

2977
03:09:23,840 --> 03:09:26,560
scholars.
Quote.

2978
03:09:27,000 --> 03:09:29,680
Because the 1832 account does
not say that two beings are

2979
03:09:29,680 --> 03:09:32,480
present in the vision, some
people have wondered, did Joseph

2980
03:09:32,480 --> 03:09:34,400
Smith see two percentages or
one?

2981
03:09:34,880 --> 03:09:36,560
Did he alter his story as time
and dawn?

2982
03:09:36,920 --> 03:09:39,240
With a little explanation, these
questions can be answered.

2983
03:09:39,240 --> 03:09:41,640
First, it is clear that the
consensus of the First Division

2984
03:09:41,640 --> 03:09:44,720
accounts is the 2 percentages
appeared all of them.

2985
03:09:45,280 --> 03:09:47,720
The 1832 account is the only one
that's ambiguous.

2986
03:09:48,520 --> 03:09:51,400
While the brief 1843 Richards
report leaves out many details,

2987
03:09:51,400 --> 03:09:54,640
including any specific mention
of God's appearance, all of the

2988
03:09:54,640 --> 03:09:56,920
other eight accounts speak
clearly of two divine beings.

2989
03:09:56,920 --> 03:10:03,360
Second, the remaining account,
the 1832 narrative, actually

2990
03:10:03,360 --> 03:10:06,120
suggests that the vision
progressed in two stages.

2991
03:10:06,120 --> 03:10:09,960
First, that Joseph was filled
with the Spirit of God, and the

2992
03:10:09,960 --> 03:10:14,440
Lord opened the heavens upon me.
And second, he saw the Lord, and

2993
03:10:14,440 --> 03:10:18,080
he spake unto me.
The second stage clearly refers

2994
03:10:18,080 --> 03:10:21,840
to Jesus Christ, who identifies
himself as the one who was

2995
03:10:21,840 --> 03:10:25,840
crucified.
So when that second stage, we

2996
03:10:25,840 --> 03:10:29,560
know it's Jesus Christ.
Though not explicitly stated,

2997
03:10:29,560 --> 03:10:33,760
the initial mention of the
Spirit of God and the Lord may

2998
03:10:33,760 --> 03:10:36,640
have reference to the presence
of God the Father and his

2999
03:10:36,640 --> 03:10:41,480
opening of this vision.
At the very least, it doesn't

3000
03:10:41,480 --> 03:10:45,080
rule out to it doesn't say there
was only one.

3001
03:10:45,520 --> 03:10:48,200
Yeah.
Right, And I may have missed

3002
03:10:48,200 --> 03:10:49,400
that.
Now that makes sense.

3003
03:10:49,400 --> 03:10:52,280
I think I missed I, I, I don't
think I was picking up what you

3004
03:10:52,280 --> 03:10:57,640
were putting down there.
So basically, you know, while it

3005
03:10:57,640 --> 03:11:00,760
doesn't come out and say to the
fact that it's in two stages and

3006
03:11:00,760 --> 03:11:05,320
where he says that the Lord
parted the heavens for him, that

3007
03:11:05,320 --> 03:11:09,040
would be an illusion to where
God the Father introduces Jesus

3008
03:11:09,040 --> 03:11:11,480
Christ.
Unlike he says here clearly,

3009
03:11:11,520 --> 03:11:18,120
let's say first here's the first
stage, Joseph was filled with

3010
03:11:18,120 --> 03:11:23,360
the Spirit of God manifestation
of the Holy Ghost and the Father

3011
03:11:23,360 --> 03:11:26,880
and the Lord opened the heavens
upon me that God the Father did,

3012
03:11:27,640 --> 03:11:31,800
and then he saw the Lord and he
spake unto me Jesus.

3013
03:11:32,240 --> 03:11:34,640
The second stage clearly refers
to Jesus Christ, who does

3014
03:11:34,640 --> 03:11:36,640
identify himself as the one
who's crucified.

3015
03:11:37,360 --> 03:11:39,720
Though not explicitly stated,
the initial mention of the

3016
03:11:39,720 --> 03:11:43,640
Spirit of God and the Lord may
have referenced to the presence

3017
03:11:43,640 --> 03:11:45,600
of God the Father and his
opening division, since it is

3018
03:11:45,600 --> 03:11:49,120
clear in all of the other
accounts that the vision was

3019
03:11:49,120 --> 03:11:54,840
opened by God the Father.
All the other accounts say yes,

3020
03:11:54,840 --> 03:11:58,360
God the Father appeared 1st and
introduced his Son.

3021
03:11:58,520 --> 03:12:02,960
That is consistent with the
sequence of events in the 1832

3022
03:12:02,960 --> 03:12:07,560
account, to be sure, the main
point of emphasis, especially in

3023
03:12:07,560 --> 03:12:10,960
the official 1838 account, as I
had actually seen a light.

3024
03:12:10,960 --> 03:12:13,200
In the midst of that light, I
saw two personages.

3025
03:12:13,560 --> 03:12:15,280
They did in reality speaking to
me.

3026
03:12:17,600 --> 03:12:21,120
Finally, remembering that the
1832 manuscript was an

3027
03:12:21,120 --> 03:12:25,600
unpolished effort to record the
spiritual impact of the vision

3028
03:12:25,600 --> 03:12:26,960
on him.
He was by himself.

3029
03:12:27,040 --> 03:12:30,640
He was away from home.
Well, we don't know that he was

3030
03:12:30,640 --> 03:12:34,280
doing in Indiana, but it was
around that time and that the

3031
03:12:34,280 --> 03:12:36,640
main content of the heavenly
message was delivered by the

3032
03:12:36,640 --> 03:12:38,600
sun.
It is understandable that the

3033
03:12:38,600 --> 03:12:41,480
prophet simply emphasized the
Lord in the 1832 account.

3034
03:12:42,080 --> 03:12:47,640
Thus nothing precludes the
possibility that two beings are

3035
03:12:47,640 --> 03:12:51,320
present.
Let's see what else I have to

3036
03:12:51,320 --> 03:12:54,760
say about it.
This two stage reading is

3037
03:12:54,760 --> 03:12:57,920
strengthened by the fact that in
his 1835 account of the First

3038
03:12:57,920 --> 03:13:01,480
Vision, but also in two
contemporary second hand

3039
03:13:01,480 --> 03:13:06,480
accounts, David White, Alexander
Niebauer, Joseph described 1

3040
03:13:06,480 --> 03:13:09,040
personage appearing to him in
the midst of the brilliant

3041
03:13:09,040 --> 03:13:12,360
pillar of light or flame, and
then the second one appearing

3042
03:13:12,360 --> 03:13:16,640
immediately after.
So the sequence is the same if

3043
03:13:16,640 --> 03:13:20,160
he'd left out the transition
detail.

3044
03:13:20,840 --> 03:13:23,720
Indeed, it would make functional
sense that one being the Father

3045
03:13:23,720 --> 03:13:28,920
was the first was was first to
the focus of Joseph's attention

3046
03:13:28,920 --> 03:13:31,840
as the Father opened the heavens
upon him, at which point Joseph

3047
03:13:31,840 --> 03:13:35,840
then saw the Lord the Son.
Keeping in mind that the various

3048
03:13:35,840 --> 03:13:39,720
divine titles for the members of
the God did were not necessarily

3049
03:13:39,720 --> 03:13:43,960
uniform or standardized among
the Latter Day Saints in the

3050
03:13:43,960 --> 03:13:48,080
Prophet's lifetime, nothing
precludes the possibility that

3051
03:13:48,080 --> 03:13:52,080
the 1832 account refers to both
God the Father and Jesus Christ

3052
03:13:52,080 --> 03:13:55,080
as the Lord.
You know, that's interesting.

3053
03:13:55,080 --> 03:13:59,760
Because as as I was reading that
the the paragraph above there

3054
03:14:00,640 --> 03:14:04,200
where it talks about being, you
know, the spirit overcoming, I'm

3055
03:14:04,200 --> 03:14:06,640
wondering if that's not a
function of that pillar of light

3056
03:14:06,640 --> 03:14:09,640
that he sees.
Then the Father comes and

3057
03:14:09,640 --> 03:14:15,280
introduces the Son.
Dear brother, that is exactly

3058
03:14:15,320 --> 03:14:18,400
right.
Does those other extra canonical

3059
03:14:18,400 --> 03:14:21,640
texts are reading?
Equate the Shakina of the glory

3060
03:14:21,640 --> 03:14:25,200
of God, the pillar of light,
with the Spirit of God, which

3061
03:14:25,200 --> 03:14:30,480
always appears first to prepare
those to see the vision, to be

3062
03:14:30,480 --> 03:14:33,160
able to see the vision.
So the Spirit of God does.

3063
03:14:33,160 --> 03:14:34,560
That's exactly right, and I love
that.

3064
03:14:35,280 --> 03:14:38,600
And see here, here's the other
thing that is so sneaky by those

3065
03:14:38,600 --> 03:14:41,640
who who have an axe to grind
with the restoration.

3066
03:14:43,640 --> 03:14:48,960
They will glom on to one point
and they will ignore the entire

3067
03:14:48,960 --> 03:14:53,600
context of the rest of the
account to make it fit.

3068
03:14:54,240 --> 03:14:57,080
And it's that kind of
intellectual dishonesty that I

3069
03:14:57,080 --> 03:15:02,880
quite frankly detest, right?
I, I want people to ask

3070
03:15:02,880 --> 03:15:05,440
questions.
We need people to ask the

3071
03:15:05,440 --> 03:15:07,360
questions, even the tough
questions.

3072
03:15:08,120 --> 03:15:14,880
But if if you are going to start
from a place where where no

3073
03:15:14,880 --> 03:15:17,960
amount of evidence is going to
be able to sway somebody.

3074
03:15:18,520 --> 03:15:21,280
Yeah.
All they do is cherry pick the

3075
03:15:21,280 --> 03:15:24,640
necessary information to make
their point.

3076
03:15:25,400 --> 03:15:29,920
They are the worst kind of
missionary because, you know,

3077
03:15:29,920 --> 03:15:33,360
they, they harp and they
complain a lot about needing

3078
03:15:33,360 --> 03:15:36,960
informed consent, right?
Gosh, someone should have told

3079
03:15:36,960 --> 03:15:38,280
me this.
Someone should have made me.

3080
03:15:39,440 --> 03:15:43,840
You are doing, you are
projecting the very thing that

3081
03:15:43,840 --> 03:15:48,440
you claim to detest.
And it, it's, it's one of those

3082
03:15:48,440 --> 03:15:53,600
things that, gosh, if you're
struggling right now, make sure

3083
03:15:53,600 --> 03:15:58,400
that in your struggles you are
reading primary sources and not

3084
03:15:58,400 --> 03:16:00,560
somebody's take on the primary
source.

3085
03:16:00,920 --> 03:16:03,960
Don't take my word for it.
Don't take Ken's word.

3086
03:16:03,960 --> 03:16:06,040
Well, if you're going to take
someone's word for it, take

3087
03:16:06,040 --> 03:16:09,760
Ken's.
But I would advise everybody to

3088
03:16:09,760 --> 03:16:12,600
not take anybody's word for it.
Go do your own homework.

3089
03:16:12,920 --> 03:16:15,960
Then find people you trust and
say, what do you think of this?

3090
03:16:16,480 --> 03:16:20,680
But do your own homework.
Do not understand that

3091
03:16:20,760 --> 03:16:24,160
everybody's coming at you with a
little bit of an angle and it's

3092
03:16:24,160 --> 03:16:28,960
important and incumbent upon you
to get the necessary discernment

3093
03:16:29,280 --> 03:16:31,640
that is needed to navigate those
waters.

3094
03:16:32,160 --> 03:16:36,680
So along those lines, when
people talk about they have the

3095
03:16:36,680 --> 03:16:41,160
shelf of unanswered questions
and nobody has all the answers

3096
03:16:42,120 --> 03:16:46,440
and that they have this
existential crisis where there's

3097
03:16:46,560 --> 03:16:48,880
they have so many questions,
they can't take any more and the

3098
03:16:48,880 --> 03:16:52,880
shelf breaks.
What I have discovered in my

3099
03:16:52,880 --> 03:16:58,920
experience, I have two shelves.
I have another shelf of

3100
03:17:00,000 --> 03:17:05,040
inexplicable, miraculous bull's
eyes by the Restoration.

3101
03:17:07,480 --> 03:17:14,320
How can I ignore the thousands
of unassailable truths that I

3102
03:17:14,320 --> 03:17:18,120
have discovered on my own?
How can I reject all of that?

3103
03:17:18,120 --> 03:17:25,240
Because there's one seemingly a
question that doesn't have an

3104
03:17:25,240 --> 03:17:29,040
answer at present, right?
And this one about the 1832

3105
03:17:29,040 --> 03:17:31,880
revelation is not even a real
problem.

3106
03:17:32,760 --> 03:17:36,480
He doesn't say he only, he does
not say I only saw one person.

3107
03:17:37,640 --> 03:17:41,640
He says I saw the Lord, and then
I saw the Lord Jesus Christ and

3108
03:17:41,640 --> 03:17:46,320
the Spirit of God was there.
He's clearly referring to more

3109
03:17:46,440 --> 03:17:51,880
than one member of the Godhead.
To put it this way, Neil

3110
03:17:51,880 --> 03:17:58,280
Maxwell, highly respected
scholar, apostle, deceased in

3111
03:17:58,280 --> 03:18:02,960
the Church, often taught that
reasons do not take the place of

3112
03:18:02,960 --> 03:18:06,320
faith and testimony.
Faith will always be required as

3113
03:18:06,480 --> 03:18:13,440
part of mortality, but reason
does create an intellectual and

3114
03:18:13,440 --> 03:18:16,360
spiritual environment in which
faith and hope may flourish.

3115
03:18:17,520 --> 03:18:21,760
We seek to follow the example of
Elder Jeffrey Holland who spoke

3116
03:18:21,760 --> 03:18:28,400
of having quote 1000 elements of
my own testimony of the divinity

3117
03:18:28,400 --> 03:18:33,120
of the Book of Mormon.
Having 1000 elements is not an

3118
03:18:33,120 --> 03:18:36,520
exaggeration.
He testified to that very thing

3119
03:18:36,520 --> 03:18:41,680
again in the most recent General
Conference and I that rings so

3120
03:18:41,680 --> 03:18:45,560
true to me whenever I have an
unanswered question.

3121
03:18:45,880 --> 03:18:50,200
If I'm ever tempted to think,
wow, what if it's all just a big

3122
03:18:50,200 --> 03:18:56,600
made-up lie?
How can I forget the thousands

3123
03:18:57,360 --> 03:18:59,840
of incredible, I mean, some of
those bullseyes we read tonight?

3124
03:19:00,160 --> 03:19:05,720
How in the hell, sorry, how in
the heck does a 2000 year old

3125
03:19:05,720 --> 03:19:09,320
document talk about the temple
rites I perform in the Saint

3126
03:19:09,320 --> 03:19:13,240
George Temple?
Same context, same purpose.

3127
03:19:14,480 --> 03:19:18,440
How does that happen?
I'm glad you brought up the

3128
03:19:18,440 --> 03:19:23,840
shelf analogy because they talk
about the shelf breaking and

3129
03:19:23,840 --> 03:19:26,800
often times what I've wondered
is did your shelf break or did

3130
03:19:26,800 --> 03:19:29,680
you just have too many things
stacked on one side without

3131
03:19:29,680 --> 03:19:35,320
balancing it out?
Did your shelf just tip right

3132
03:19:35,640 --> 03:19:39,160
back to your analogy of having a
or not analogy, but your point

3133
03:19:39,160 --> 03:19:43,080
of having 1000 evidences for the
gospel right?

3134
03:19:43,080 --> 03:19:46,760
Are you doing a truly detailed
search or, or are you just

3135
03:19:47,080 --> 03:19:50,680
taking these problems that are
fed to you and then

3136
03:19:51,040 --> 03:19:55,960
internalizing those and not
stopping for a moment and asking

3137
03:19:55,960 --> 03:19:58,040
the question, but what about
this?

3138
03:19:58,160 --> 03:20:00,600
What about that?
Right?

3139
03:20:00,600 --> 03:20:05,480
It it seems to it seems to be
out of balance more than than

3140
03:20:05,760 --> 03:20:07,960
breaking.
Well, and I have to say, if I

3141
03:20:07,960 --> 03:20:12,000
were to put them on a scale on
the right, all the inexplicable

3142
03:20:12,000 --> 03:20:16,240
miraculous to me straight up
evidences of the truthfulness of

3143
03:20:16,440 --> 03:20:20,720
the divinity claims of Joseph
Smith and the restored gospel, a

3144
03:20:20,720 --> 03:20:24,680
balance scale and have a little
question that I don't have a

3145
03:20:24,680 --> 03:20:28,280
perfect answer for over here.
They're not even close.

3146
03:20:28,920 --> 03:20:32,160
The evidence is so far outweigh
that I can't even take it.

3147
03:20:32,680 --> 03:20:35,200
I can't even lose any sleep over
it.

3148
03:20:37,080 --> 03:20:40,280
I was having this discussion
with the man a long time ago who

3149
03:20:40,720 --> 03:20:43,120
it confided in me his concerns
and his doubts, and we were

3150
03:20:43,120 --> 03:20:46,720
having this type of conversation
and he said it's a Native

3151
03:20:46,720 --> 03:20:53,440
American story, a morality tale.
He says the Native Americans

3152
03:20:53,440 --> 03:20:59,520
talk about inside every person
there are two wolves, a good

3153
03:20:59,520 --> 03:21:02,400
wolf and a bad wolf, and they
are constantly at war.

3154
03:21:03,360 --> 03:21:10,520
Which wolf wins and is the one
you feed the most and what you

3155
03:21:10,520 --> 03:21:13,240
choose to feed the most is
really an expression of your

3156
03:21:13,480 --> 03:21:18,440
will and your desire.
And when I have, I mean, having

3157
03:21:18,440 --> 03:21:22,160
been all down all these rabbit
holes, everyone I can find and

3158
03:21:22,160 --> 03:21:25,600
think of, I'm not, I'm not
ignorant.

3159
03:21:25,600 --> 03:21:30,400
I don't think of anything of any
claim against the Restore

3160
03:21:30,400 --> 03:21:33,280
gospel.
And I've had this discussed with

3161
03:21:33,280 --> 03:21:36,320
a number of friends.
Every time I come out the other

3162
03:21:36,320 --> 03:21:39,960
side of one of those rabbit
holes, I come out knowing with a

3163
03:21:39,960 --> 03:21:43,320
greater surety the truthfulness
of the restored gospel.

3164
03:21:45,200 --> 03:21:52,600
And I want to ask you what I
said there, there, there aren't

3165
03:21:52,600 --> 03:21:54,160
answers to everything on the one
hand.

3166
03:21:54,160 --> 03:21:56,800
On the other hand, there's so
much information out there.

3167
03:21:56,800 --> 03:21:58,400
I think there are answers to
everything.

3168
03:21:58,400 --> 03:22:04,480
Answers in this case, it's not,
it's not a dead ringer, but it

3169
03:22:04,480 --> 03:22:07,200
is a plausible explanation
there.

3170
03:22:07,200 --> 03:22:10,440
And all of these subjects,
you're not the first one to ask

3171
03:22:10,440 --> 03:22:13,200
this question.
It's been asked by smarter,

3172
03:22:13,200 --> 03:22:19,520
wiser, more stable people to me
and they've answered it in a

3173
03:22:19,520 --> 03:22:22,840
very reasonable way.
And there are answers to

3174
03:22:22,840 --> 03:22:28,880
everything in my experience.
So I guess what I would just,

3175
03:22:29,280 --> 03:22:33,160
and I've said this before on
your program, it's important for

3176
03:22:33,160 --> 03:22:36,880
people to know where what those
resources are and where to find

3177
03:22:36,880 --> 03:22:42,360
them throw a great price.
central.org is 1 scripture,

3178
03:22:42,360 --> 03:22:48,200
central.org is another evidence.
central.org is another.

3179
03:22:48,200 --> 03:22:53,200
Between those three evidence
oriented websites, it is not an

3180
03:22:53,200 --> 03:23:01,160
exaggeration to say they present
solid overt secular evidence for

3181
03:23:01,160 --> 03:23:04,760
the truthfulness of the divine
claims of the restored gospel.

3182
03:23:04,960 --> 03:23:10,160
How many thousands?
Not an exaggeration, thousands.

3183
03:23:12,200 --> 03:23:14,400
And if you've been through the
whole thing with me and Dave

3184
03:23:14,400 --> 03:23:23,080
here tonight and you haven't,
you haven't been surprised or

3185
03:23:23,080 --> 03:23:26,960
amazed by so many of these
discoveries we've discussed.

3186
03:23:29,320 --> 03:23:32,200
I don't know.
I don't know what else to say.

3187
03:23:32,200 --> 03:23:40,720
I other than the plan of
salvation is designed to allow

3188
03:23:40,720 --> 03:23:45,520
us to choose according to our
desires who and what we follow,

3189
03:23:46,440 --> 03:23:49,600
whether it's true or not.
Assuming for the sake of

3190
03:23:49,600 --> 03:23:52,600
argument, the restored gospel is
the absolute truth.

3191
03:23:53,240 --> 03:23:55,960
But you don't want to do it.
You want to do something else.

3192
03:23:56,160 --> 03:24:00,400
That is why this plan exists.
That is why the Father has given

3193
03:24:00,400 --> 03:24:04,680
you your agency.
You can follow whatever order

3194
03:24:04,680 --> 03:24:13,040
you choose here and in eternity,
but I'm very happy to discuss

3195
03:24:13,040 --> 03:24:18,480
the particulars of it.
I think there are those who

3196
03:24:19,560 --> 03:24:23,840
really do have a love of the
holy priesthood of the order

3197
03:24:24,040 --> 03:24:27,600
after the order of the Son of
God, Kingdom of God on earth,

3198
03:24:28,160 --> 03:24:33,400
but get deceived out of it.
And it's for people like that

3199
03:24:33,400 --> 03:24:37,560
that I am most willing to go to
Bath and have whatever

3200
03:24:37,560 --> 03:24:39,320
conversation anybody would like
to have.

3201
03:24:39,320 --> 03:24:42,080
And if I could be of help, I'm
happy to do that for those

3202
03:24:42,080 --> 03:24:44,640
people who, whether it's true or
not, they really don't want to

3203
03:24:44,640 --> 03:24:47,760
do it.
We don't need to talk about

3204
03:24:47,760 --> 03:24:49,640
anything.
And I'm still I'm happy to be

3205
03:24:49,640 --> 03:24:51,280
your friend and enjoy your
company.

3206
03:24:52,280 --> 03:24:54,520
I mean, that's how eternity is
going to be, isn't it?

3207
03:24:55,880 --> 03:24:58,000
Absolutely.
The three degrees of glory are

3208
03:24:58,000 --> 03:25:01,200
not going to be at war, right?
We'll be serving.

3209
03:25:02,080 --> 03:25:05,760
We'll be serving one another and
we'll be very pleased and happy

3210
03:25:05,760 --> 03:25:08,480
with our choices, otherwise we
wouldn't have chosen them.

3211
03:25:08,480 --> 03:25:13,880
Yeah.
Absolutely, Ken, as always, man,

3212
03:25:14,160 --> 03:25:16,160
that was good stuff.
Is there anything else you

3213
03:25:16,160 --> 03:25:17,640
wanted to cover that we didn't
cover?

3214
03:25:18,560 --> 03:25:21,840
No, we covered way more than I
intended to cover.

3215
03:25:22,080 --> 03:25:24,040
That's awesome.
That's that's, that's what we

3216
03:25:24,040 --> 03:25:27,960
do, bro, every time.
That's that's why I love these

3217
03:25:27,960 --> 03:25:29,960
conversations.
Me too.

3218
03:25:30,920 --> 03:25:35,320
All right, man, I'm so grateful
that you asked that you gave me

3219
03:25:35,320 --> 03:25:39,520
a chance to do this.
I just I, so I, so I so look

3220
03:25:39,520 --> 03:25:41,640
forward to this.
It's my favorite thing ever.

3221
03:25:41,920 --> 03:25:46,160
Me too me too it was so like
when I first called you up.

3222
03:25:46,640 --> 03:25:49,200
Can you believe that's pushing
four years ago now I'll be like

3223
03:25:49,200 --> 03:25:56,000
4 years ago next summer yes was
2022 Yep dude, I have enjoyed

3224
03:25:56,040 --> 03:25:58,640
every one of our conversations.
I love you like it, brother.

3225
03:25:58,640 --> 03:26:01,960
I'm so glad that we we, we were
able to strike up this

3226
03:26:01,960 --> 03:26:03,400
friendship and.
Me too.

3227
03:26:03,880 --> 03:26:06,360
Me too, man.
Just just think the world of

3228
03:26:06,360 --> 03:26:09,840
you, but you're funny.
You crack me up and you also

3229
03:26:09,840 --> 03:26:12,720
amaze me.
I I'm still flabbergasted every

3230
03:26:12,720 --> 03:26:16,760
time I'm listening to one of
your podcasts at how widely read

3231
03:26:16,760 --> 03:26:20,240
you are, How I'm like, how does
he know that?

3232
03:26:20,400 --> 03:26:22,200
What's he doing reading all of
that stuff?

3233
03:26:22,640 --> 03:26:24,800
And then I have to remember it's
because you never sleep.

3234
03:26:25,560 --> 03:26:27,960
I don't sleep very much.
No, I do not.

3235
03:26:28,040 --> 03:26:29,920
It's it's both a blessing and a
curse.

3236
03:26:29,920 --> 03:26:33,320
I I get a lot done, but there's
there's a price that's a fix.

3237
03:26:35,040 --> 03:26:38,160
But anyway, dude, I love you.
Let's do this again soon.

3238
03:26:38,160 --> 03:26:41,480
All right, Will do.
All right, hang out just 5

3239
03:26:41,480 --> 03:26:42,560
minutes.
Bye, everybody.

3240
03:26:42,960 --> 03:27:15,640
Bye.
You're listening to the Mormon

3241
03:27:15,680 --> 03:27:17,080
Renegade podcast.