Episode #222: The Armour of God Series PT4-The Sheild of Faith W/Joseph Hammonds

0:12 Joseph, how's it going? Going good. It's been pretty cold, man. We just, we had a cold snap and it's just been nuts. OK, I I can totally sympathize with you. So Christmas here this year was, was like, oh, 71° here is what it was for Christmas And then like 2 days after Christmas it had a high of like 20 something. And I'm like that's, that can't be legal. That can't be right. We can't do it that way. That's rough. So no, I I totally get you how cold it get down there. Let's see, we had to, we had a bunch of snow got down to like 15° and just like you, Christmas Day was like 68° and I'm like, this is the day to wear flannel.

1:01 This, this is horrible. So it's just been back and forth and, you know, little sickness kind of went through the house because of it. But we're we're all healing up, dude. Everybody I've talked to has it, I mean like it's, it's going everywhere. It is so, but it, it burns out pretty quick from what I can tell. So that's you got that going for you. But just before we get going here, let's get your Mormon credit a little bit. How's that sound? Sure. So were you born in the LDS church? Were you born a fundamentalist? I mean, where? Where are you coming from here? I came from the opposite spectrum. I was raised in the Baptist Church, then Southern Baptist, and then Independent Baptist.

1:43 Actually. When? I love Mormons. Oh my goodness, you seen that movie. The BBQ movie, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's how it that's how it is in Virginia. But let's see, essentially, when I went to join the church, well, let's start like this. The missionaries came to my grandpa's house. And I look out the window and I see these two guys in suits holding a blue book. I'm like, oh, man, the Mormons are here, so I'll go to the door. And my whole intent was to convert them to like what I believed. And as you can tell today, that did not work. It's like, it's like that Will Ferrell movie with what's his name, the Mark Wahlberg, the other guys where he goes.

2:27 How'd that work out for you? Yep, not like you thought. Nope, not like I thought, but you know, so I was baptized in April of 2012. And to that point from when I first met the missionaries to when I was baptized was a year and a half. And there was this one missionary from Idaho, his name's Elder Eborn. I'll just, there's so many Eborns in Idaho. You know, he actually served in the same area for like I think 6 months in the same mission, the same apartment. And his last day there was the day that I was baptized. So he baptized me. The next morning, he was flying back to Idaho. Actually, so. And you were in Virginia at this point?

3:08 Virginia, Yeah. What part of Idaho was he from? Around the Pocatello, I believe that's he's from from that area. But yeah, he's gone home now. He has a big red beard. I call him the ginger Brigham Young. So, yeah, nice. But we, we talk quite a bit. But yeah, that was my story into, you know, Mormonism. Oh, like, let's stay there for just a second as you're as you're a Baptist, right? Like and they sit down and they present to you. What year would this have been, Joe? The IT was the I'm a Mormon campaign, so 2020 11/20/12. OK, OK, so they're they're definitely doing come follow or preach my gospel.

3:55 They're not doing the pamphlets anymore like when I joined. So like as they start getting into various doctrines though I mean for a Baptist like things like, I don't know, non trinitarianism, vicarious work for the dead, eternal ceilings, like none of this is like throwing up a red flag to you at all as a Baptist. Oh, it was, I think my biggest contention with film was the baptism for the dead. I was like, how in the world do you do that? I was like, I mean, are you like cosplaying when you do it? I was like, how does this work? And you know that I struggle with that for at least 6668 months, so.

4:38 But yeah, yeah. Gotcha. And then so how, how did those get resolved? Elder Eborn, I mean, he really, he had the patience of a St. He just really walked through with me and I don't know, just something he said that it just clicked with me. You know, he was like, Joey, think about this. You know, he's like, where did Jesus go when, you know, after, you know, he was crucified? I was like, he went to, I thought at the time he went to heaven. That shows you how much I knew. He's like, no, he went to the Spirit prison and preached to the dead. He was like, he was like, you know, these things happen after death. You know, God's not going to throw you away forever. And it clicked.

5:21 I was like, that makes sense. So let me ask you this, what were you converted for spiritually or were you converted? Converted like intellectually, right? Because I have seen it. And, and this is what makes Mormonism interesting. And I think it's, this is what makes Mormonism really unique in all of Christendom is that it has the ability to appeal to both your heart and your head, right? Because like the, the, the thing that Mormonism and the thing that Mormonism says is that like all those scriptures that people have been struggling with for years out of the New Testament, the Old Testament, we got the answers to, right?

6:04 And so did did it appeal first to your head or to your heart? It was actually my heart because I called them. We had a big, massive debate. I mean, it got pretty fiery and they just said we're not coming back. But I called them the next day just during the night time. I was thinking about it and all of a sudden, for some reason, it didn't make sense to me. I knew it was true. So I called them the next day. They're like, hey, Brother Hammonds, mission president told us not to come by anymore. He's like, I was like, well, I'm ready to be baptized. They're like, why? I was like, my heart was on fire last night. And I know it's true, but I don't know how. And so they ended up baptizing me. And as I went on and studied more and more, it just things fell into place.

6:46 Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, OK. So how do you get to fundamentalism? Oh, man, it was such an interesting journey. I just noticed that the church itself was really backtracking on things that even I was taught when I was, you know, an investigator. For me, really the I guess you could say it had to do with Adam God, because that was the first thing that I had studied. I read a quote by Brigham Young, I can't remember which one it was where he was talking about, you know, him like how him and Mother Eve came to this planet and, you know, blood into their veins. I was like, are they saying as Brigham saying that he's God? And that's what started it, started researching that topic for a long time, you know, and I kind of got to this phase with the church where I was kind of just, I was there, but I wasn't. I think you've talked about that before. Like I was, I don't know.

7:44 I was. Yeah, I was physically, yeah, Yeah. And really that I started seeing things more and I just was posting that was making sense. And he was at through him was how I came to your podcast. So you and Maro and I really were my source for like fundamentalist teachings. So that's how I've gotten to this point was like, do you know, just the study of like backtracking's and stuff. And another big point for me was when my wife and I went through the temple, I was like, none of this makes sense. I was like, nothing fits together. You could really tell I'm saying this respectfully, that things were just pulled out of it and then they never, you know, put something in that made sense anymore. It's like everything felt discombobulated, I guess you can say.

8:32 So, yeah, that was her, both her and I experiencing. We were like, you know, this is somewhat the spirit was there, but nothing made sense so. So you're investigating fundamentalism first. Tell me about how it is. You talk to Amy about it, right? Because it's one thing for the guy when they go, oh, crap, right? Like I think this is legit. But then you got to go talk to your wife about it, right? And if I'm not mistaken, the first time you and I talked, that was my advice to you, right? Was like you need to go talk to your wife and then call me back. Oh yeah. So yeah. So essentially we sat down the first time to study the Adam God Doctrine. 5 minutes in, shut down and I was so heartbroken. So we just kind of just did the normal thing. We were going to church for a little bit and, you know, and then I kind of mentioned it to her again. I was like, look, we really need to study this. And she's like, OK, so we started studying it a little bit.

9:35 Then we ended up going to the temple and I was like, kind of pay attention to Adam when we go in there. And even though they've tried to redact a lot of the stuff with like the endowment as it is now, yeah, Adam, God is still there. And the IT just, it's it's there and they try to get rid of it. I think that's divine thing, thankfully. But for her, that was her like, OK, I really need to start studying Adam. So we actually downloaded some what is it like study guides off of the Mormon fundamentalist Facebook group. What we did was, you know, once a night for like an hour, we'd sit down and we systematically studied the Adam God doctrine. You know, like Joseph said, you start the bottom of the ladder and you work your way up.

10:19 We started with the simple things and let it build upon each other. And then all of a sudden I come home and there's like 15 pamphlets on the couch from like the branch and my wife is reading about like, celestial marriage. And I'm like, you go, girl, at first it was, it was a hard conversation because I feel like when you go to tell your wife that, you know, you're studying fundamentalism, they research it and the first thing you see is like celestial marriage, like polygamy. And it's, it's, it's not, it wasn't the case for me. It was like Adam, God, because I felt like God wasn't so far away from me, like he understands who I am, you know, So, but that was really how it started. I mean, it was a hard conversation at first, but then the the Lord really opened her heart and then she was kind of pulling me behind her as we study these things. Got you.

11:08 Yep, yeah, Yep. No. What it like I I've told guys this too, right. If if your wife can get get on board when she gets on board, she'll absolutely outpace you in it. Oh. Yes. That seems to be one thing that seems to be, I won't say quite universal, but it's pretty close, right That that once once the sisters get a hold of it and they're like, oh man, this is true. It's just off you go. And they'll sometimes they outpace their husbands at it and, and I'm not sure why that is other than they're just better than us sometimes. But Amy right now is she's sitting at the the table with the Ensign to the nation's book and just going through it. So yeah, she's outpacing me right now. Yeah, yeah, I hear you.

11:58 Mine, mine do it all the time. Get used, get used to it. So no, that's that's great stuff. So dude, we're we're we're still on the Armor of God series, and yours was the Shield of Faith. So I'm anxious to get in. So what'd you find? So there's actually quite a bit that I, I was going through and studying. I kind of have my document open here. So let's, I guess, let's start by reading the passage. This is from the inspired version. It says, above all, taking the shield of faith wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. So when I was going through this, and this is going to be a little bit, you know, basic, but let's start with the basics.

12:39 Like Dave, what? What is faith like to you? Well, there's, there's a couple of ways to look at this, right. You can give kind of the canned standard answered, which is correct. It's a, it's a, it's a belief and a hope and things that you can't see. But I think it goes deeper than that. I think, you know, if, if we look at the lectures on faith, I think it's very, it makes a very compelling case for this idea of everything we do is, is inspired by faith. We wouldn't do anything if we didn't have some sort of faith in the outcome, right? And we exercise it all the time.

13:20 When you wake up in the morning and the first thing you do is turn on the light, you don't even think about, you just have faith that it's going to work, that the lights are going to come on. And so more than to me, I like the answer of it's the great motivating force for all of humanity. more than I like. Just a belief in things you know, hoped for, but unseen. There you go. So yeah, that's that's that's perfect. Yeah. And I was going through this. I was like, so let me dive into like some of the original, you know, like the Greek and the Hebrews. So in context of Ephesians 616, the word faith means firm persuasion. It's translated, translated in the KJB. It's like faith, assurance, belief, fidelity. But when you get to the ancient Hebrew, I think it's, you know, really neat in the ancient Hebrew, like faith means to stand firm as a support.

14:24 But when you even get deeper into that, like the root, it actually relates to like kind or species, like human beings, dogs, stuff like that. And so each, and this is from the ancient Hebrew lexicon of the Bible, it says each species continues by passing its blood to the following generation, which comes from the parent. Also the idea of strength through the blood. So essentially, you know, dogs are going to reproduce dogs, you're sure of that. They're not going to reproduce whales. Cats aren't going to produce, you know, shrimp, they're going to produce cats. You know, it's kind of like how I think Ogden Kraut wrote about this is like, celestial beings only produce celestial beings, not mortal ones, you know?

15:08 So if you kind of combine those two words together, looking at it, it's like a surety. It's like, I know for a fact that this is what's going to happen. So that's the beauty of studying those languages. Yeah. So you mentioned lectures on faith. So for me, when I first read the lectures on faith, it completely just, you know, blew my mind. So let's just kind of go through that a little bit. So let's see here trying to get this to work with me. So in the Lectures of Faith it teaches that faith is the first principle of revealed religion, the foundation of all righteousness. It's also teaches us the assurance in the unseen. Faith is the assurance which men have of the existence of things which they have not seen, and the principle action and all intelligent beings.

16:07 And then it goes on. It says it's the moving cause which you mentioned. It's the moving cause of action in both temporal and spiritual concerns. It says that here. It says faith and faith only is the moving cause of action in them, that without it both mind and body would be in a state of inactivity and all their exertions would cease. Both physical and mental continues on, it says. And as faith is the moving cause of all action and temporal concerns, so is in the spiritual. For the Savior has said and that truly that he believeth and is baptized shall be saved. And that makes sense, like you said, when you get up in the morning for me, like I get up at 4:00 in the morning each day, I get dressed and I do it because I know if I go to work, I'm going to be able to provide for my family.

16:57 I have faith that I'll receive the paycheck. You know, when I get into the car and I'm going to the grocery store, I know that, you know, I have faith that that car is going to start. It's going to get me to where I go and I'm going to come back home. And you know, so it makes sense that it's the moving cause of action. So then it goes on. And this was this is the one that really blew my mind and for me. Let's see if you see it too. I get a little hint of the Adam God in this. So it teaches that it's the principle of power. And here we go by this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the world's were framed, was faith, and that by reason of this principle of power existing in the deity, that all created things exist.

17:49 So that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason of faith as it existed in him. Had it not been for the principle of faith, the world's would have never been framed, neither would man have been formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute, for it is an attribute from the deity, and he would cease to exist. So for me, I, I never realized this.

18:30 And it's kind of hinted at in Hebrew that it was by faith that the world was framed. It was by faith in Father Adam that the world's were framed. So you know, he had faith and I never, I never thought about that concerning God, especially as a Baptist. I was like, God doesn't need faith. We need faith to believe in him. No, it's teaching that God had faith and through faith, everything that we see around us was formed by him. That's just beautiful. So just continues on just a little bit more. It says it was by faith that the world's are framed, God spake, chaos heard and worlds came into order by reason of the faith there was in him. So with man also. He spake by faith in the name of God. And the sun stood still, the moon obeyed, mountains removed, prisons fell, lions mouths were closed, the human heart lost its enmity, fire is violence, armies their power, the sword its terror, and death its dominion.

19:28 And all this by reason of the faith which was in them. So like I asked you in the beginning. So what is faith then? And you really actually hit this round the money. It was like. Faith then is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things. By it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain agreeably to the will of God. Without it, there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence. And I think it's beautiful with that verse that we started with with in Ephesians 616. It says, above all, you know it. Above all, the shield of faith, you know it's it's because faith is the first great governing principle. You know, when we get right down to it, I think faith eyes in with hope a lot.

20:29 It does. If we look at some of the darker times in history and we hear about people who survived that, they speak a lot about hope and faith. I don't think you can really have hope in anything until you have a little bit of faith first. I don't think it's by accident that no matter what 12 step program you're going to work, whether that's through Alcoholics Anonymous or any other recovery program, almost universal, universally, the first thing they say is you have to surrender to a higher power, right? They, they, they won't say Christ, they won't say, you know, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but they say you got to surrender to a higher power, a recognition that there's something bigger than yourself. And I think it's really interesting that that even those who seek to heal others from addiction and that sort of thing understand and recognize that hope can't spring from nothing. Exactly.

21:32 Faith can't spring from nothing. You have, there has to be something you put your faith in, otherwise you become nihilistic. And so I do think that that you know, as as things continue to degrade in society and that sort of thing, I think if we want to have hope, we have to have faith first. Exactly. Exactly. And you know, I'm, there's been plenty of times, you know, there was a really, you know, dark time I went through back in like 2015. I just want to put a little TW, I guess you could say. So I lost three family members in a pretty horrible way. It was a homicide, you know, And I remember, I remember just like, I don't know, I like it got to the point where I felt hopeless.

22:24 And it was, I was just in like, robot mode, you know? And it took a long time for me to actually get back to the point where, you know, I felt joy. I felt hope, you know, I actually looked forward to things and just be feeling like that, not having hope, that is. That's just a grim way to live, you know? And yeah, could you even really call it life, you know? Oh, OK, quick, quick example of this. There was a, there was a show I was really enjoyed watching a few years back called Alone. It was on The History Channel. And basically what they did is they they, they took people and they just stuck them, you know, up in Alaska in the wilderness or, or, you know, in some remote jungle somewhere.

23:12 And it was up to them to navigate it. And here's what I found interesting. It wasn't the people who had, you know, the best skills that won that thing. The people who won that thing were people who were constantly trying to improve their situation. Oh yeah. So they would have set back still, right? They would not. Everything they tried worked, but they didn't stop. And it got me thinking, why? Why do those folks do so well? And I think this ties in again with faith and hope. It's that there was an idea that they possessed that said, if I just put forth the effort, I can make this a little bit better and I can make it a little bit longer, right? There was an expectation that if they did the hard work, it would pay off.

24:11 And even when it didn't, they didn't get discouraged by it. So I think, and then we have instances where where we hear of Holocaust survivors who said it was just faith that they could hold onto, right? It was just faith in something higher than themselves that at some point they would be delivered. And I think that that it's so it's going to be so important in these last days that we possess that kind of faith or it's going to get real easy to get hopeless really fast. Oh, exactly. And you know, that's that's why, you know, I love how this verse says that faith is a shield. And I think this is a good time to actually cover that point if you don't mind.

24:54 Yeah, go. So like when it comes to the shield, this is beautiful imagery. So like I did with the other one that kind of just went back into the Greek and it really revealed something here. So in the Greek it's called Atherios. And this this word shield is only used one time in scripture right here. And if you look at the history of that type of shield, it was a large oblong shield that protected every part of the warrior. So a lot of people think of the medieval shield, you know, the little circle on your arm. No, this thing was actually the size of a door, you know, if you'd like look, I think it was what's the movie Troy? I think it's Troy where they're going through and like the the gladiators are like, you know, or the Spartans are going through and they're holding up the shield and they form like this barrier all around them.

25:40 That's the type of shield this is talking about. So it was protected. It protected every part of the warrior. It was made of a wood. It was made of wood covered with leather and had a pretty prominent spined boss, that little line that goes to the front of the shield and it was carried using that central hand grip. So like when it comes to faith, so faith acts as this type of shield and the amazing feature of this type of shield is it quenches that fiery darts of the enemy of Satan that are meant for man. And the root word for shield, it also means originally a stone for closing the entrance of a cave.

26:21 So this was a door. Now that's a beautiful imagery there because, you know, think of the let's kind of go to the Hebrew here. Few months back, Justin Frankham had an idea to make learning about the fullness of the restored gospel a lot easier. It was an idea that once I had my mind wrapped around it, I felt like it could do a lot of good. Mormon Legacy Ministries is a multi denominational ministering effort to provide a safe landing place for Mormons to land until they find their forever church home, while at the same time offering folks an opportunity for worship and fellowship. Here's a little bit of what Mormon Legacy Ministries is offering. Every second and 4th Saturday of the month at 3:00 PM Mountain Standard Time, a sacrament meeting is conducted by Joshua Erickson. Every Thursday at 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time is the Gospel Fundamentals class hosted by Eleanor Walker and Braxton Bogart.

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28:08 To get there, all you need to do is go to mormonlegacy.org and then click any or all of those classes that are being offered there. Again, that's Mormon legacyministries.org. Go there today and sign up. So like the basic meaning of the letter to let in this door, but has several other meanings associated with it. It can mean a back and forth movement as one goes back and forth through the tent, you know, through that door there. It can also mean dangle as the tent door dangled down from the roof pole of the tent. And it can also mean weak or poor as one who dangles their head down. So I think you've heard this before. I think like Joshua and Elliot talked about this, how like, you know, Hebrew letters, they have a number associated with them.

28:54 Like, you know, Dilette is the #4 So if you think about it, there's 4 cardinal directions, north-south, east and West. And on the 4th day, God laid the foundation of creation to support and give life. So this isn't no normal shield. It can put out fire. And also it doesn't just protect every aspect of our life, it also gives and supports life as well. So this is a pretty special shield, but also too with the shield of faith being the door, it instantly brought up something that Jesus said in John 10/9. He says I am the door by me.

29:38 If any man enter in, he shall be saved, shall go in and out. There's the in and out that the letter to let was talking about, you know, in and out and find pasture. So and also let's see here, Jesus also says no. No, let let let me push back there just for a second. You said dolette is is Hebrew for for for shield, right? Or is Hebrew for door? OK, so let me ask you this. In this case, where we get this Scripture comes from the Greek though, right? It does, it does, and Paul does. It still carry that. Does it still carry that same connotation in the Greek as it does the Hebrew?

30:22 I believe it does because when it comes to like the original word for Thorios, I believe I'm pronouncing that right. Originally it meant it was a stone that covered the, it covered a cave like, you know, like the the tomb of Jesus you see in Jerusalem. It's it was a big massive stone that acted as a door to block the entrance to that cave. So there's some echoing happening happening right here. Yeah. I was just curious because sure it, it, it would seem kind of, I was curious how you were getting back to the, to the Hebrew if it was in the Greek, right.

31:06 And so I was curious what the mechanism was that that caused you to go back to the Hebrew and and not stay with the Greek on that. Yeah, definitely. And also too, if you think about it, you know, when Paul did write in Greek, but he was a Jew, he understood like these, you know, these things. And that's the case with, you know, the Scriptures themselves. It is a, it is a Jewish work. And like I said, even though Paul did write in that in the Greek language, he was, he was a rabbi. And, you know, he under, he understood that. So, But yeah, I mean, I'm going to, if you don't mind, I can kind of go ahead and continue. Here go. Ahead. Sure, thanks. So there's another passage here, and it comes from Second Nephi 3117 through 18 says wherefore do the things which I have told you to do. I have seen that your Lord, sorry, let me kind of go back here.

32:02 Wherefore do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do. For for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which you or ye shall enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. And then are ye in this straight and narrow path which leads to eternal life. Yeah, ye have entered in by the gate, ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son, and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way, ye should receive.

32:50 So this shield of faith, you know, it's, it's, it's that door, it's the door by which we enter. And also it's the, you know, if we're burying the shield of faith, who are we having faith in? We're having faith in Christ, right. So yeah, that's that's the portion about the shield that I had. So, so let, let's carry this, this out a little ways here. So I want to explore this a little more, but I think I think we should probably look at those, those fiery darts of the wind. I think we should, we should look at that first and then tie this back to the door, right? Because I, I think it's super important we kind of illuminate what those things could be because I think that will then inform us maybe how that shield works a little bit, right, How faith acts as a shield.

33:38 So would you find on on like the fiery darts? So there was just a little bit here. It's only kind of used in three separate passages. But when I kind of when I was thinking about the imagery, like the fiery darts were like covered in like back in those times, it was covered in like pitch and it was lit, you know, it was lit in fire and when it pierced anything that fire would just spread. So, you know, think about like, for instance, envy. I feel like envy is like the gateway sin, like essentially everything that you do like with an envy, it can lead to other things. Like for instance, you know, the dart hits you without the shield of envy and you're looking at someone else's, you know, spouse that just spreads all over. It can lead to like adultery and like say anger, you know, that can spread pretty quickly, lead to violence. So and that like, even like illness and there's actually, there's actually a good story about illness and I have it right down here and it comes from the scriptures actually. So let me find it here for one second. And it's actually the story.

34:56 Have you heard of Polly Knight? Oh, OK, So Polly Knight, she was the mother of Newell Knight. And they were actually one of the first settled. They were actually the first settlers to get to the land of Zion in Missouri. So this comes from his diary and you're going to see this progression of the fiery dart, the shield of faith. And what what happens when that shield of faith is activated, right? So he wrote, my mother's health was very poor and had been for a considerable time, yet she would not consent to stop traveling. Her only or her greatest desire. There's that faith, there's that faith right There was to set her feet upon the land of Zion and to have her body interred in that land. Now here's you can kind of see where his faith is kind of shaken by this.

35:46 He said I went on shore and bought lumber to make a coffin in case she should die before we arrived at her place of destination. So fast did she fail, but the Lord gave her the desire of her heart and she lived to stand upon that land where we arrived on the 25th of June. Like I said, that's from Newell Knight's diary. So because of her unwavering faith, that shield of faith the Lord lit Polly Knight stand upon. Yeah, Polly Knight stand upon that land and see the foundation of Zion laid in Missouri. And when she died, it greatly impacted Joseph. Joseph and the Knights, they went real. They went pretty far back.

36:33 He had a really personal relationship with this woman. And when she died in they were at the funeral. He actually received this revelation. It comes from DNC 59 and it's verses one through 5. It said, Behold, blessed saith the Lord, are they who have come up into this land with an eye single to my glory, according to my commandments. For them that live shall inherit the earth, and them that die shall rest from all their laborers, and their work shall follow them, and they shall receive a crown in the mansions of my Father which I have prepared for them. Yeah, and here it is. Blessed are they whose feet stand upon the land of Zion, who have obeyed my gospel. For they shall receive the reward, the good things of the earth, and it shall bring forth its IT shall bring forth in its strength.

37:22 And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above. Yeah, and with commandments, not a few. And with revelations in their time that they are faithful and diligent before me. So Polly Knight, she had that face. She's like Laura, I want to, I want my feet, even though death is like knocking at my door. I want my feet to, you know, to step into Zion. And what was beautiful, she not only did she live, she lived to see those foundations laid because Joseph and another party had come down there and they actually built the first cabin there. She saw that she saw Sidney Rayden and she heard the prayer that he gave over the cornerstone, and then she ended up passing away a couple months.

38:06 Later. That's interesting. You know, I think those fiery darts, I thought about this a lot and I'm going to share a story here that I have not shared a personal story that I haven't shared up to this point because I haven't felt I haven't felt like I'd had permission to do so yet because it was it was absolutely just for me. So I want to say this the outset nobody should really take understand this was for me. If you can get something from it, great. If not, that's OK. So about five years ago is when I received my kind of the the full endowment, if you will, not not the one that I received in the LDS Church. And and that's not a slam on anyone who's who's attending the temple at the LDS Church.

39:04 It's just the ordinance is different. And I feel like it's a little more complete as all not calling BS on anybody else's experience here. But before I go there, I need to go back a lot farther back than than five years ago. And this comes from when I was probably, I'm guessing I was probably 15 or 16 years old. Now, my old man, he was really good at making money, but he sucked at his taxes. He should have just got an accountant. And he didn't. And so when he died, the federal government just doesn't go away.

39:45 And so we had to sell off just about everything to pay the tax burden. And so we got real poor real fast. Now, my mom did everything she could to support us kids. I was the oldest of four. I worked to help out a little bit. I'd worked after football practice and that sort of thing to take care of myself and anything else I could get extra to give to the family. And one day I'd come home from school and my mom was at the kitchen table. Now my mom worked three jobs to support those us 4 kids. She would get up at 2:00 in the morning and work from like 2:00 to 7:00 at A at a bakery for a a large grocery store chain.

40:38 She would get done with that and from she'd go home, sleep for a little while. Then at about noon she'd go in work for four hours for a local insurance agent, being a secretary, answering phones, filing things, that sort of stuff. From then she'd come home again. She'd change and then from like 5:00 to 7:00 at night, she would go back in to the to the local nursing home and cook meals or do janitorial stuff, whatever it took. So I got home one day and she was crying at the kitchen table and I was like, you OK, What's going on?

41:18 She's like, I'm fine. I think I'm just tired. I think I'm just going to go to bed. And I know she had a stack of mail in front of her. So being the nosy little puke that I was, I thought, you know, I'm just going to go, go scope this out. And what I saw was a rejection letter from the state. She had applied for some food assistance, but she grossed $30 too much. And you want you want to talk about making a young man start listening to Rush Limbaugh in a hurry. It did for me, right? Like, I remember in that moment going, I will never ask the government for anything. Not a damn thing, right?

42:00 I will. I will go my own way. And I became very determined from that point on. OK, so that story, you got that story in the book books. So it's the night before I'm supposed to start traveling to go to the place where I will, will receive my, my endowment. And that night I just kind of think about, you know, how I got here, this sort of thing, right? And I start, start thinking about it and I'm like, gosh, I hope, I hope everything goes well. So that night I say my prayers. You know, I, I just asked that the road would be cleared before us, that we wouldn't encounter any problems in our traveling, that everybody'd be safe, that we could have a good experience, you know, typical. And I lay down that night and it's a, it was unusual for me because normally it takes me a good two hours of staring at the ceiling before my brain finally just shuts down. My body's done, but my brain is still going constantly. And so I finally drift off to I, I, I actually go to sleep really quickly, which like I said, was unusual. And I immediately have a drink.

43:12 I mean, immediately. And I'm standing in a city in the downtown part of a city. And I somehow instinctively know, and I don't think this, you know, I'm not going to mention the city because I don't know if it has any pertinence to the story. And I don't want to irritate anyone living in those cities. But it's a city back east. And there's someone who's walking beside me, not quite a guide because I kind of feel like I know where I'm going, but I don't know where I'm going, but just someone beside me. And we get to this one building. And you know what?

43:54 Do you know what the the architectural style of Brutalism is? A little bit, I believe, yeah. Brutalism was used a lot in in Soviet Russia. Oh, OK, I know what you're talking about. Very blocky, very disjointed. It's brutal right by by every stretch. This building was done in brutalism with black windows, right? The windows were not just tinted, they were blacked out. And I stand in front of this building and this building just doesn't make me feel real good, right? It's tall building too. And I just looked at the guy beside me. I'm like, am I supposed to go in here? And he just said, Yep, just said yes. I was like, are you coming with me? And he said, I can't.

44:44 So I went ahead and I went in and the first thing I noticed is kind of the receptionist there, right? Very attractive woman, but she was also very scantily dressed, right? And didn't like the way that felt either, but she was very welcoming. She's like, oh, David, it's so good to see. I'm so glad you're here. He's been expecting you. All you need to do is go in and there's only only three buttons. Just push the top button and that'll take you up to where he's at. And I was like, OK, so I just get in. And now this elevator is, is very flush, right? It's it's very even the elevator screams of opulence and and wealth.

45:35 And like, the floors of this elevator were marble, right? Like it was that kind of of fancy. So I poke the button takes me up and I can tell I'm going almost all the way to the top and it gets there and the elevator doors open and it opens up into an apartment, right? Like there's no door. The, the elevator doors just open up and I take a step out and the, the walls have a bunch of red plush drapes on it. The wood is a very dark wood that panels some of the, some of the walls and it, it's got swirly designs in it and the, IT actually like swirls as you look at it, right? It moves and I'm just thinking this is odd, right? And it's got an effect of kind of just making me a little disoriented almost, right?

46:34 And I hear a man's voice from from down the hall because it opens up and it kind of opens up into this formal room. And but it's got this hallway right in front of you. And I can hear somebody from down the hallway saying, Hey, just come on back. I'm I'm glad you're here. And I, I walk on back. As I'm walking on back this hallway, I can see these two big doors that are open and I can tell I can see that that the far side, as I'm looking of this major area down the hallway opens up into a room and it overlooks the city. So I walked down there and there's a man who's just looking out the window and he's very well dressed. His voice is pleasant but unsettling too. And he turns around and he's wearing a three piece suit tailored, right.

47:29 You could tell this really tail tailored got a little bit of a Sheen to it. The vest is a a red and black vest again with the same swirly patterns that I saw in the wood. And he just cut. He said, just just have a seat at this table. And this table was made out of wood. And I said, wow, what kind of wood is this? He's like, oh, you wouldn't recognize that wood today. He's like, that's, that's a very special kind of material that I had this table built out of. He's like, but just go ahead and have a seat. And I sat down and put my hands on the table and it was frigid to the touch, right? I remember it was frigid.

48:13 And then he comes over and he sits beside me. So I'm sitting at the head of the table and he sits just kind of on the corner next to me. And he leans back in his chair and he just says, it's a big day for you tomorrow. It's like, yes, yes, Sir, it is. I'm, I'm really looking forward to it. He's like, before you settle on something I want to show you, I want to show you some stuff. I want to make you a counter offer is how we put it. And he's got a remote on the table and he hits the remote and down comes this really large TV and he pushes a button again. And it comes on and he hits another button and it starts to play. And what it plays is that that incident I just told you about with my mom at the table.

49:05 Only as he plays it, I can feel all the feelings I had as a young man. And he plays it, and he puts down his remote and he just goes, wow, that must have been rough for you. I was like, well, it wasn't pleasant. And he goes, here's my offer. Forgo your endowment, work with me. And together, we might be able to make sure that this never happens to another family. Oh wow. And as he makes the offer, things get really, really dark.

49:45 I mean a dark feeling. And I was like, at what cost? And he goes, the cost. Cost isn't in inconsequential to the good that you're going to be able to do if you work with me. And I said, you know, I think I'm going to go with God on this. And he goes, your God our Father, and he leans back and I will say the thing that was the least in the the least incendiary, incendiary remark that he made, He said your God is the sadist.

50:33 Any God that would put a child down here to have to endure that or things far worse than that, it's not a God I wish to follow. And that's not a God you should wish to follow. Let's make things better, Dave. You and me, we can work together. And again, I said no. And I can tell he gets a little, his feathers ruffled a little bit. And he said, what else do you want? What else do you want? He's like, you want more family. I can arrange for you to have more women, more children. I can do that. That's not the only Ave. where you can get that.

51:17 Work with me. I'll give you, we'll, we'll do all this together. And the whole time I'm like, no, no, I'm not going to do this. And he keeps pressing and he keeps pressing and he keeps recalling things about after my father had passed and how bad things got. Yeah. And finally, like I'm in tears and I just say I will not. And in that moment, he got up in that big table. He just threw like just threw it up, turned it over. And he just grabs the the arms of my chair and he slides me over and he's screaming in my face. Why won't you work with me?

51:57 Why won't you work with me? In that moment, I all of a sudden was back on the ground level right beside my guide. And all he said was, it's enough. I woke up the next morning, I went and took out my endowment. So the reason I tell you this story is not because I think I'm important or anything like that. That's not what I'm saying. What I do think was happening is it was first a warning saying, look, if you're going to engage in these higher things, you can bet the adversary is not going to be happy about it. Oh, yeah. But it also showed me something else here. And this ties back into the fiery darts, who often I think we don't.

52:42 We're not on our toes as much as we should be. And let me explain. If someone is seeking after the fullness, chances are they've got a lot of other stuff wrapped up right? They're probably not struggling with ripping off their neighbor. Does it happen in fundamentalism? Absolutely. You're probably not close to cheating on your spouse. Does it happen in fundamentalism? Sure it does, but not often. So this idea that he's going to tempt us with something obvious, that that's what one of those fiery darts is going to be, I don't think holds water with who he is. We're told in Scripture he is cunning, right? He is intelligent, right?

53:32 He's called Son of the Morning. He will twist your most righteous desires to get what he wants. He he isn't. He is the father of lies. But he's a corruptor. Yeah. And so as we, as we go throughout our walk as disciples of Christ and look, I don't care if it's in fundamentalism, the LDS church, whatever, if you're trying to go about a higher way of living, you can expect that you'll be challenged and you're not going to be challenged with simple things.

54:15 And we have to understand that those fiery darts are personal in nature. They are not simply, well, here's some greed I can tempt him with, here's some infidelity I can tempt him with, Here is some whatever I can tempt him with. It's not that simple. If it was, everybody would do it. He's going to tempt you with your most righteous desires twisted in some way. And so this shield of faith starts to look very important when we have a real good idea of just how personal those darts are going to be.

55:00 Oh, yeah, man, that was, that was, that was an intense story. You know, as it progressed, you can actually see like the flames growing bigger and bigger. And he just kept showing you more things to just keep, you know, man, you know, I noticed too, like when Amy and I, when, when we went out to Missouri to receive our endowment afterward, you know, we really, I mean, we got hit just horribly in so many ways. And I'm just, I don't mind putting this out there. Like one of my biggest desires is to make sure my family is like taken care of. I noticed he started hitting those finances and it got to the point it got so bad to the point where I was just about to say, I am done.

55:45 I am just, this is all just bull crap. I don't want any part of this anymore. And it was weird the day that I said that, the very next morning was when everything happened with the Michigan church. I believe it was in Michigan where the the shooter went in, you know, and killed everybody. I was like, you know, the very same force like that evil like that was really just, you know, did that up in Michigan. It's the same thing that's attacking me. It was just like a reset happened, you know, And even also, too, when we were on the way to Missouri, it was just like a hit, a hit, a hit. You know, he was trying to take our mind off of what we were getting ready to receive. Yeah.

56:29 He's trying to get us to turn that vehicle around at every mile marker, Right. So. Right. And so this is where the shield, I think, becomes super important. Yeah, right. Knowing how personal those fiery darts are going to be. Oh yeah. It it becomes incumbent on us, right, that you don't take one to the heart. Oh yeah. And so unlike some of the other pieces of armor here that have been talked about, this one seems very, very vital.

57:10 Because if, if, if, if you're not on your defense, if you're not hiding behind that shield of faith, you'll take one of those to the heart. And because they're righteous desires, look, I don't know about you. I would classify it as a righteous desire to not have anybody go hungry, to have their power shut off to, to have, you know, gosh, I remember my mom's car being repossessed. Like, just go down the list, right? It's a righteous desire to want to spare somebody that pain, but not at any cost. Yeah. And so if he's going to twist the righteous desire, well, now you need a shield that's up to the task of taking that right.

58:00 And so as I look at the shield, I'm like, OK, so how does this shield function? And, and I'll finish this up and I'll throw it back to you for some of your comments here. And I, I apologize, I feel like I've monopolized this. No, I'm enjoying this. Few years back I started to get the feeling that we as fundamentalists and orthodox Mormons, we need our own stuff. Up to now we've been able to buy and purchase all of our scriptures, books, art and music from other restoration organizations and that's been good. But there's no guarantee it's going to remain that way. Also, it can be a bit tricky as you scour the Internet trying to find all the books from your favorite fundamentalist or orthodox Mormon authors.

58:41 As I thought about this, I feel like I was really given a solution now through the hard work of others, because let's face it, I'm the guy least qualified in all the world to build a website. I'm happy to present to you 1830 mercantile.org. Right now on the website you can see that we have all the books that have ever been written by 4 authors including names like Drew Brownie and Ogden Kraut. Also very soon there will be a link to buy art and music all produced by Mormons with a deep love for the restored gospel. There's also places for you to get free resources where you can find podcasts, videos, classes, and other presentations. Also, coming very soon, there will be a place for events where you can list the events from your organization so that you can get the most out of that attendance.

59:28 Now this can be as big as you want it to be. It's all up to you guys out there if you want to buy and post things on here. Now, if you're someone who produces something that you feel like others can benefit from, 1830 Mercantile is a place where you can make all of those products available for purchase. All you need to do is drop me an e-mail at mormonrenegade@gmail.com and put 1830 in in the title of that e-mail with a short message and either myself or someone else from the 1830 Mercantile team will reach out to you so we can get your product up there on the site. Now to make sure that all the products that we offer are affordable and to ensure that the vast majority of the profits go to the producer.

1:00:11 The website percentage is only three to 4% of the total cost, and that's just so I can pay the pros that have created this website and keep the lights on the website itself. Finally, by making some of your purchases at 1830 mercantile.org, you'll be supporting folks whose principles and morals are close, if not the same as yours. At the same time, not giving your money away to people who stand against everything you stand for. So no matter if you're looking to make a purchase or you're a seller that wants to get your products listed, head on over to 1830 mercantile.org today. Drop me an e-mail and we'll make sure that we get back out to you. Now back to the show. As I thought about this and I thought about my own experience, I do have faith that those days will come when no one wants for anything any longer, right?

1:01:09 But I got delayed the gratification and I got to have faith that he's going to follow through on what he does. And to me personally, given that experience and then with the shield of faith is supposed to do. I think that's how it works. Now. I'll throw it back to you for for any of your your thoughts or impressions there. If you, if you think about like the that, that desire to, you know, make sure everybody's fed, make sure everybody has like bread. Look at history, at what that became. You know, it's, it can happen so easily. You know, when, when you were telling your, your story, there was, there was actually this quote by Ogden Crowell.

1:01:55 It it brought up, it brought it, it was like perfect. It says that thousands upon thousands of Christians have been terrified by the fury of their persecutors and purchased their freedom at the sacrifice of their faith. But there's always been a few, both poor and rich, the humble and the noble, who have fearlessly bore their testimony to the truth from dungeon cells and in painful tortures. But they were rejoicing that they were counted worthy to know the fellowship of his sufferings. God has reserved the celestial Kingdom only for these valiant emissary emissaries of Christ. Now, right here, the devil is the most frightful and dreaded enemy of the soldiers of Christ. Yet Satan and his Imps are an essential factor in man's ascent to exaltation. You know we're going to be fighting that in the I read this quote I believe was by Abraham Galidi. It's like, you know, every time there's going to be an ascent, there is also going to be a descent prior. You know, that's going to happen. But also to like think about what happens if you don't have that shield of faith.

1:03:04 There was actually this beautiful passage in Alma 43, and it gives a perfect example of what the shield of Faith does and what happens when you don't have it. It said. Now the army of Zerahemna was not prepared with any such thing. They had only their swords and the scimiters, their bows and their arrows, their stones and their slings, and they were naked, save it were a skin which was girded about their loins. Yay, all were naked, save it were the Zoramites and the Amalekites, but they were not armed with breastplates nor Shields. Therefore, they were exceedingly afraid of the armies of the Nephites, you know, So when you don't have that shield of faith, I mean, those arrows will instantly Pierce you and it'll be just a natural reaction like you would, I don't know. You can say constant fear, you know, and that, that the, the shield of faith is in a way, I mean, it honestly does give you that courage to be able to stand up, you know, and, and have faith.

1:04:07 Stand firm. I was actually thinking it was kind of funny. You know who Tom Petty is, right? Please say yes. OK, Yeah. I was like, what if the anthem of the Shield of Faith was I Won't Back Down by Tom Petty. Right. No. Well, I think, yeah, I think there's a lot to that, right? Because look, what we're going to be required to do very soon is all of us stand where we've been planted and lift where we're standing, right? It's, I think so often we want to find the grand gesture, right? And like if, if he, if he asked me to go across the ocean, I would do that. But it's a little gestures that often we're asked to do that we fail on because we don't see the significance or the importance of it in that moment.

1:05:01 Oh, yeah. And we have to be able, we have to have enough faith to say this is what he's asked me to do. Just do it and then do the next thing he asked you to do and and trust that he's got a plan there, that he's got it all worked out. So let me ask you this. How do you build that shield of faith? That is actually a really good one. Let me go ahead and bring it up here. So let's say strengthening the shield. I'm pulling it up here. All right, so I have a couple things here. So we'll start off with like first Nephi 1524. And I said unto them that it was the word of God, And whoso would hearken unto the word of God and would hold fastened to it, they would never perish, neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead them away to destruction. So there's two things here.

1:06:10 It says hearken. That means open up your ears, you know, and then hold fast means to seize for support. So if we, if we do have faith, you know, to build it up, it motivates us to open our ears to listen to the word of God and to cease them for support. By doing this, we strengthen our shield. A weaker faith is mere cardboard in a firestorm. But when a brother or sister Harkins into the word of God and seizes the iron rod, they thicken that shield. So you know, you know, this faith is an act of principle. It's not dormant. So you know, you can't say I have faith and do nothing. You know you wouldn't exist. We've already determined that.

1:06:53 So when you have faith that you, you are going to act upon it. And there was this quote I had from Joseph F Smith. It's for the first nerds out there. Journal Discourses 18133. It says, I know that I can find it. Salvation only in obedience to the laws of God and keeping the commandments and performing works of righteousness. Following the footsteps of our file leader, Jesus, the Exemplar and the Head of all. He is the way of life. He is the light of the world. And here it is again. He is the door by which we must enter. In that order we may have a place with Him and the celestial Kingdom.

1:07:34 So by following in the footsteps of Christ in our daily lives, we do strengthen those Shields. So no matter what Satan casts at us, we can find that peaceful pasture amid battles, and we must walk this straight and narrow path. And there was this beautiful passage in Psalms that I have found, a Psalm 121, five through 8. And this is from the inspired version. It says the Lord is thy keeper, the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor moon by night. The Lord shall preserve thee from all evil. He shall preserve thy soul, the Lord shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth and even forevermore. Yeah.

1:08:20 I think with faith we got to be willing to build it. Exactly. And there's only one way you build faith, and that is to to do it. Exactly. I'll I'll give you a story here again. Awesome. When when Amber and I first got married, we were dirt poor. I was going to school full time. I was working one full time job and then one part time job. We had a couple of kids already, like I was going for it. Ramen. Is too expensive. What's that? Ramen was even too expensive. Yeah.

1:09:01 Not quite, but it was, it was pushing there. So I, I'd started a new job. I was almost done with college and Amber was getting ready to have a have a baby and I missed the sign up to have that baby covered. Yeah, by like a week. Ouch. Well, the baby's born and he's premature. Premature and we're about our third day into the NICU stay and this sweet little lady comes rolling up with a cart with a computer on it and she's like, we just need to get your information to bill you. And I'm like fantastic.

1:09:49 I was like, how much is my bill up to now? This is like 1997, right? And she goes, looks like you right now. You're pushing right around $102,000. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, yeah, let me just go downstairs and get you a check. I'll just scratch that right now. And she said, do you have insurance? And I said, well, I, I tried to get insurance. I'm not sure it went through. And she's like, well, you should probably give them a call and find out. So I get back to work, I go up into H Rs office and the lady at HR goes, well, let's give them a call and see what's going to happen, right?

1:10:29 So I get put on speaker, I'm talking to this agent, right? I got to talk to like 3 people and then finally get to the right department. Tell him the whole story. You know, here's the thing. Tell it one more time. And the lady on the other end of the phone goes, look, I'm going to level with you. Your chances of getting this covered are slim to none because my, my manager, the guy I got to go talk to is his whole job is not paying on things we don't have to pay on. That's it. That's what he does, is his whole job is to say no professionally. And I was like, oh boy. And so a week before that I had a real hard choice to make, hey, am I tithing? Or for Christmas buy something really nice for the family. And it wasn't like ATV or anything else. It's something we really needed, but I opted with pain, pain, my tithing.

1:11:36 And so back to the story here, she said. I'm going to put you on a brief hold. This will take about 20 minutes. Just stay on the line. I'm going to go talk to talk to the no man, and then I'll be back to you. Yeah. And she, she puts me on hold and I look at the HR lady and she kind of hangs her head because I think she knows what's coming, which is a big fat no. Longest 20 minutes I think I'd ever spent on the phone. She gets the lady, gets back on the phone and she says I don't know what happened to him, but he's in an exceptionally good mood and he said he'd go ahead and cover it. Oh man.

1:12:18 She said. I've seen him do this one other time in 15 years because we have every legal right to tell you no, but we're good. For whatever reason, he feels like he, we're going to do it this time. So we're going to go ahead and allow you to back, you know that we're, we're going to say that you've been covered this whole time. And so, so was your kid. And dude, I remember I got up, I walked out of there and my bill went from like $102,000 down to about two grand, right? And I'm like, but to this day I have a testimony that had I not paid my tithing, is that guy's heart softened at all right?

1:13:06 I don't, I maybe, maybe it still would have been, I don't know. But to me it was a testimony builder of paying tithing. Now that's how faith gets built is by taking a step into the dark. If we look at what, what, how Adam and Adam's God interacts when it comes time to offer sacrifices, right? The Angel comes to Adam and says, why are you offering sacrifices? He's like, I don't know, you told me to, right? There was, there was no, it was just faith. You told me to do this, so I'm going to do this. That's how I think faith gets built, but it's uncomfortable because oftentimes you have to take one step into the dark before things get illuminated and doesn't get illuminated all the way. It just gets illuminated just enough so you can see where you're standing to take the next step into the dark. But nonetheless, that's how that faith gets built. So let me ask you this question, Joey. What prevents people from taking that step? Why don't people take that step to build faith? I feel like I'll just share something for me, like when I guess it's just like the unknown for me. Like personally, I really love taking those reins and I love guiding the ship.

1:14:28 And when I feel that loss of control, it does scare me. I mean, let me just give you an example. But before I give this, let me ask Amy just real quick if I can share the story. OK? Let me ask her if I can ship. Hey Amy, can I share the story about OK, Dave? So I got the yes. So this is another financial story. So here's a personal story from us. Like, so we had some issues with finances, some things defaulted.

1:15:13 It was for student loans, right? It was a private company. And instantly I go into overprotective mode. I was like, we got to do this, we got to do this, we got to do this, we got to do this. And every time it seemed like I try to take those reins, nothing worked out. And then my wife is like, we really just got to pray about this and see what the Lord wants us to do. And so we ended up praying about it. And a week later, we had this sign of hope. Like it was for like, this student loan forgiveness program, not forgiveness. It was like a refinancing where it was for student loan. It was specifically for defaulted student loans. So she was like, perfect, let's go ahead and apply for this. She applied for it and she got approved. So we were rejoicing, like, yeah, yeah, like, you know, we can do this.

1:16:04 And paperwork goes through, but then the court case comes up and judgment was issued against us. And we were like, that hope just sucked. Like, have you ever felt that feeling where you do have hope? And then that hope is just like, sucked away, like, just dry. It's oh. Absolutely. I'm a fan of the Green Bay Packers. I I'm very familiar with that feeling. Man, it was, it was the most horrible feeling. And we were like, Lord, you know, we were, we were exercising faith like, you know, and this company had told us that judgement is issued in no way, shape or form will it be approved. So we just felt hopeless. We were like in a daze and we were like, Lord, what's what was this about?

1:16:51 And all of a sudden Amy gets a phone call a couple days later. It's from that company. And they're like, just want to let you know that we spoke with the, you know, those attorneys and they're going to work with us and that student loan is going to be completely paid off. And you know, when it for me, like everything that I wanted to do to help the situation, to take the reins and not rely on faith, it all seemed to fall apart. So for me, I guess that answer would be just that loss of control. People love to be in control of their destinies, you know.

1:17:33 A hundred 100%, yeah, 100%. And and you're, you're right, that loss of control, especially for dudes, right. Dudes are way worse at it than the sisters are, right? I mean, the sisters, I think the sisters have a natural inclination towards that. Dudes are like, whatever, give me a hammer, a bigger hammer and I'll make it work. And that doesn't necessarily always pan out in our favor. We have to stop to recognize that. Oh yeah. I think the other thing is, is just just fear, right? It's it's tough to step into a situation that you don't know what it looks like.

1:18:13 Oh, yeah, I remember when we were adopting our twins. So stupid. So we had to like not adopting them. That was one of the better decisions I ever made. But. Like. Yeah, just a clarification that'll cut down on the amount of counseling some of my kids will need later. And when we were adopting the twins now, we already had four kids of our own, right. None of them have been in trouble. They do well in school. You know, they're, they always look presentable. They don't look, look like they're, you know, starving, anything like that. We've already had a home inspection, a whole ball of wax.

1:18:54 But they're like, yeah, we're going to need you guys to take these this six week course on how to be a foster parent. And I'm like, right, 'cause look, I've already explained to you my feeling on government, right? And now I have to deal with government. And I stand by this. It's as true a principle as anything you'll ever find. Nothing will screw up a good thing faster than government. Just just the truth of it. And so I'm like, fine, I'll play the game. So because we got kids at home, six of them now Amber and I can't take them at the same time, right?

1:19:36 We're going to have to take them at separate, separate times. And so I'm in a completely separate class in Amber. And that teacher, she knows I am not happy to be there. I make no pretension that I'm happy to be here at all. And she can tell because she keeps saying things like, well, Dave, is there something you want to add? And I'm like, well, why don't you tell us, right? You're, you're you're here telling me how to be a parent. How many kids do you got? And she's like, none. I'm like, oh, I'm really excited to hear what you think. Right. So like, I, I am, I am just fine with being very cantankerous, right?

1:20:19 Like, I will be here, but don't you dare talk to me while I'm here. OK. So it was being team taught by two people. One was a guy and one was a lady. The guy in in one of these classes, and this was early on, this was probably like, this was probably like Week 2, right? And the guy ends up getting sick and leaving. At the end of the class, this woman's phone goes off and she she says I have to take this, let me step out. She steps out. She's gone for about 30 seconds. She comes back and she goes classes dismissed. We have to go do an extraction, meaning get kids out of a bad situation. And she looked at me and she said, I want to talk to you though, before you leave.

1:21:07 And I thought, oh, crap, right. I'm going to get the lecture like down to the principal's office. The thing kind of a thing, right? And she she just says, are you are you enjoying this? And I'm like, not one single bit. Not at all. I would rather have a root canal with a dull, rusty spoon than be here one second longer. And she goes, I got a proposition for you. Now you've met me. I'm a fairly big guy, right? Yeah. Or she she looked at me and she's like, I gotta go do an extraction. The police are going to meet us there, but I don't have another male to ride with me. And I need another male to ride with me because some of the kids were going to be getting, you know, have been sexually abused. So we always make sure that there's two people in the car so we can make sure that, you know, if there's any accusations that there's more than one witness, if you go with me, I'll, I'll write this off.

1:22:10 You're done. You never have to come back. And I'm like, done, done. I'll go with you right now. Let's go, right? So I get in the car and I'm like, woo Hoo, I'm out of this. We get there and she tells me to wait outside, but as I'm want to do, I'm like, I'll wait for her to walk in and then I'm going to walk in behind, right? Like, no, she gave me this little like temporary badge thing. So I'm like, I should be good enough to get me through the front door, right? And so the doors wide open, cops are already there. I go in and bro, I see some of the worst living conditions I have ever seen in my life. I mean, the smell alone was enough to make me want to step back out and puke.

1:22:57 It was so bad. There was feces on the wall. There were dirty diapers everywhere. Food was molding on the counter. Garbage was piled up. It was horrific, horrific. The kids look like they didn't have hadn't wore clothes in probably a month and probably hadn't bathed in that long either. The fridge was completely bare, so was the pantry dishes piled up. Like I cannot go in to the amount of just disgusting things that I saw in that home. Yeah. And here's the thing that got me. Those kids still fought to leave, fought to stay despite everything that was in there, despite us being as gentle and loving as we could be.

1:23:50 They wanted to stay in that situation, and it caused me to reflect on us as human beings. So often we don't want to take that step simply because it's unfamiliar. If there's one phrase that I do not like, it's that, well, I'd rather deal with the devil I know. Well, I wouldn't, quite frankly. Right. Maybe it does become a worse situation, but if you don't take the shot, you never know. That's right. And so I, I look at that and I think it's that same sentiment that keeps people in bad situations from moving forward because the fear of the unknown is, is that is so much bigger for some people than even the, the, the horrible position they're in. And so I think fear dictates that a lot, right? That, that I will not take that step. I'll just stay right here.

1:24:54 One movie that I, I, I always look back at and think the character in the movie must have felt the same thing as Castaway, right? You remember it's when Tom Cruise, fine, I'm not Tom Cruise, but Tom Hanks finally breaks that last breaker and there he's got like maybe 5 minutes to go back, right? I could, I could just stay on that island. I, I've lived five years on that island. I can, I can make it there. Or there's this vast blue nothingness out in front of me that I could do. And so this idea of being scared of the unknown I think is a a huge factor in why people don't take the steps necessary. That one step into the dark.

1:25:42 Then the Lord will show you he's got you, and you can add that to your shield of faith. But you got to be able to conquer that fear. And the only way you conquer it is by doing the thing that's making you the most scared. And that's just all there is to it. And so this idea, so often we look at discipleship and I think, I think there's two types of discipleship really that you can look at. One is kind of, and, and I'll be honest, this is my opinion. I don't think the Lord is super happy with this kind of discipleship. It's better than nothing, but it's the passive discipleship.

1:26:22 Right. I'm just going to, I'm just going to stay right here. I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to try to better myself. I'm going to read my scriptures a little more. I'm going to pray a little more. And those are good things. You should always do those. But that's not what we're called to do. We're called to be that light on a hill, right? Don't put your light under a bushel. Let it shine, right? And so I think we're supposed to be change agents in the society, right? We need to be those people to which others can look and be like, OK, maybe I don't have to go dark. Maybe he's got something up there. Maybe he can tell me what, what makes him go. That's what we have to get to. But we got to conquer the fear first, right? And I understand that without taking that initial step into the darkness, it's going to be really hard to build that.

1:27:12 Oh, yeah. You know, that reminds me, you know, taking that step, I was working a job, a retail job a couple years ago. And it was the type of job where, you know, you get to know the whole entire community. Everybody comes to that place. And there was one day I was actually just popping the scriptures in my head. I was kind of going through there, kind of facing the shelves. You know, I was really in my own mind. And all of a sudden I had this impression, Joey, just look up and give this person a hug. And I turn around and I'll look and it's this normal customer. And I know that this person, they were always really apprehensive about, you know, touchy, you know, no shaking hands, nothing. Well, I just go straight up to that person. I'm like, gosh, this is going to be awkward, but I got to do this.

1:27:55 Give them a hug. And they start crying. And, you know, it was like, don't say anything. Just just hug. And I kind of leaned back and the person looks at me like, thank you so much. I needed that. I found out that I had stage 3 cancer today and it's inoperable. You know, it was like, I'm not the type of person I have to get to know you to give you a hug. I think you and I, I think we're on just like bro taps right now. But just to do that, it's just super uncomfortable, you know, and you know, if I want to take in that step, you know, how could that person so not boosting by saying this, but like, what were that person's mental state have been like after that? You know, it was that sense of hope in like that time of, you know, devastating news, so. No, we're, we're, we're called to do uncomfortable things, right?

1:28:48 It, it, the same principle applies at the gym as it does in your spiritual life. If you're too comfortable, you ain't making gains, right? That's just the way it is, right? You got to bump the resistance up every so often, you get the effect. Otherwise you're just kind of running through the motions. And don't get me wrong, it's better than not doing anything. But if you're going to, if you're going to be there, why not get the full effect anyway, right? I mean, if you're going to be there, why not just sell out and go all in and then and then try to make it better. And I, I want to be sympathetic. It's tough, right? It, it really is tough to do. But that's the only way you, you progress is you got to take the step into the dark and know that he's got you and he, he will have you.

1:29:38 And look, I, I also want to say this, there's no guarantee it's going to work out like you think it should, right? It'll work out just like it's supposed to. But maybe that step in the dark is so that you can experience failure and learn from that. And just 'cause you fail or you perceive you failed doesn't necessarily mean that it was wrong or bad. It just meant it didn't work this time. So you got to go back and you got to figure out what you did. I can't remember what he's he's kind of a despicable human being. But we don't know how many times Thomas Edison truly failed at making the light bulb. Oh yeah, that's right.

1:30:20 But he failed a lot he did. And so we got to be willing to take to take that that failure. That's part of the process in building faith. There's going to be times where you fail but fail forward, right? I remember my football coach used to tell me that if if you're carrying the ball, you're going to fall, you're going to get tackled, fall forward. Don't fall backwards, right? Pick up another yard if you're going to fall. How do we do that spiritually? We get back up and we learn from how it is we fell and then we don't we try not to do it again.

1:31:01 All those things I think can really play a big role in fostering that faith that you will need to shield you from those darts. That will be very personal. Oh, yeah. You know, we were there. I mean, I mean, you remember this like when we were planning to come out to Missouri. I mean, we were like, we're going, we're going. And then just all of a sudden, everything just fell apart just like at the last minute. And, you know, me taking the reins. I mean, I don't, you know, I was like, we can't do this. We can't go right now. We got to make sure we provide for the kids and everything and that was that was the most. Horrible. Gun punch, gut punch that I have felt in a very long time. I mean, I think I called you right after I was like, I, I Dave, I just don't know, you know, but I will tell people like, you know, don't be just, yeah, don't be discouraged. Like, you know, when you, you, you're acting with faith and it doesn't work out.

1:31:54 Just stand firm, keep going, you know, don't, you know, cuddle in a corner and never do anything again. You know, that's not growth, that's just being complacent, right? I'll say this and then I'll I'll let you you wrap this up. Well, before we go there, is there anything else in your notes you wanted to go over? No, no, we actually covered everything that I had. OK, perfect. Yeah. I want to say this, and, and I've said this before on other episodes, but I, I, I think it's, it bears repeating. I, I, I've been prompted for almost 2 years to do this series and I didn't want to do it because I felt like they're, they're too simple of, of concepts, right?

1:32:47 Like how am I going to squeeze any juice out of those? Yeah. But it got way powerful a few months ago where I knew that coming into 2026, this had to be the first thing that that one of the first things that gets dropped is a series. And I think it's because we live now in a time where the seasons are changing all the time, right? And if, if we're going to be able to stand in these days and stand for our kids, stand for our brethren, we're going to have to learn how to operate on faith, because if we're not operating on faith, we're going to be in some trouble. I think the times are coming sooner than later. I don't know when I'll never play Pin the Tail on the Apocalypse.

1:33:36 That's a losing game. But the one thing we are guaranteed is that it's going to get worse before it gets better. And in those times, we better be able to operate with such faith that if we get a prompting and, and that prompting is don't go that way, go this way. But the way the Spirit's telling you to go seems completely counterintuitive. You can drop everything and go that direction. I think it's vitally important. And I can't stress enough that those fiery darts are personal. And if they hit, do you can still come back from a hit? I, I don't want to say that you can't, you absolutely can, but it's going to be more difficult because it's going to hit you right where it's designed to hit you about the thing it's supposed to hit you with.

1:34:25 And you're going to have to figure out how to extract it, heal and move on. Best case is to use this faith as a shield and don't get hit. And that's that's kind of where I'll leave it and I'll let you you wrap it up from here. Yeah, well, you know, taking those hits, that can be definitely something. You know, I don't know why I thought of this when you said taking those hits. You you remember Monty Python's, what was it? The quest for the Holy Grail when the The Dark Knight got his arm cut off. It's just a flush wind. Get back up. Keep. Keep pushing, put a little take a salt tablet or something, you know, but you know, I would just really I I mentioned it earlier, you know, listen to the classic him, this Tom Petty.

1:35:10 And when, when you're facing hard times, you know, I won't back down, You know, just stand your ground. You can stand me up in front of the gates of hell, but I won't back down. You know, Stay strong, Saints. So yeah. Awesome. Well, Joey, thanks for jumping on with me, bro. Yeah, brother, it's always a pleasure. And our love to you and your family from from the Old Dominion. Yep. Oh, you too. So all right, hang out for 5 minutes, all right? You too. Gotcha. All right. Bye everybody.