Episode #200: Mormons & Freemasonry W/Ben Schaffer

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The.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Mr. Schaefer, how you doing?

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I'm doing great.
It's good to be back on with the

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Mormon renegade.
Dude, it's always good to have

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you on, man.
We, we, you know, there's been

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these conversations, but also
private conversations we've had

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that have been pretty good.
And some of those private ones,

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there's been times I've been
like, yeah, should have had a

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microphone handy.
So we can share that, right?

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Except, except for.
Except for the part where we

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drop the bad language.
Right?

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We can keep that one off.
I'll do some fancy editing.

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We'll be all right.
Yeah, I always like to say that,

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you know, I don't think God is
is offended by 4 letter words or

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I would say I don't think he
gives a about four letter words

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nearly as much as God cares
about whether or not we do

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justice, love one another,
fulfill his commandments.

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People sometimes I think they
use that as a proxy for real

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morality.
They might about what language?

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People use no tempo.
I get it.

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Well, dude, this subject here is
one that I have been fascinated

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to do for quite a while.
And Full disclosure, I did talk

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to Cheryl Bruno once a little
bit about it, but didn't go

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terribly in depth.
And the other thing is, and she

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did a fantastic job, but.
Well, and she, she's very

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knowledgeable, but she's not a
Mason because.

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Right, she's not a Mason.
Right, right, right.

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In fact, little plug, shameless
plug for her book right

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Methodist.
That's that's one of the better

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books about Mormonism and
Masonry that is available.

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Is the book method infinite?
So, yeah, man, I have been

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super, super excited for this
episode and, and really can't

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wait to, to dig in here because
like you were saying, she's not

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a Mason, you're a Mason.
And I'm really looking forward

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to it because I think for so
long there's this been, there's

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been this idea that if you're a
Mason, you can't be a Mormon and

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vice versa.
And that's really not correct at

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all.
Of course.

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Now, I will admit, I don't know
a lot of Mormon fundamentalist

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Masons.
It would be nice to have more

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company, though.
So I hope that a lot of people

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who are listening, if they're
interested in Masonry, that

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they'll reach out to their local
lodge.

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There's a lot of great benefits
to Masonry that I hope we can

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get into.
Absolutely, absolutely.

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Well, dude, take it away.
What do you got?

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So there's a there's a couple of
big controversies here.

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I think that's a good place to
start.

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People talk a lot about
Mormonism and Masonry and you

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hear things like, oh, the temple
ceremonies are just Masonic

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ceremonies or, or the Mormons
just ripped that off.

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People will often say of Joseph
Smith, oh, he plagiarized the

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temple by using Masonry to make
this new thing that he called

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the temple ceremonies.
And I want to disabuse everybody

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of those ideas.
It's not true that type of anti

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Mormon, that whole thread of
anti Mormonism is actually just

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a continuation of old prejudices
that were anti Masonic in the

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1st place.
You know, anytime.

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And I think partly it comes from
the fact that anytime something

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seems secret to somebody, any
time someone doesn't know what's

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going on, they can allow their
imagination to run wild because

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they don't know the truth, they
don't know the reality.

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They can make up anything they
want and it'll sound plausible

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to the uninformed.
And and that is that is that is

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probably one of the biggest
problems there is that a lot of

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the same publishing houses, the
same ministries, I guess that

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are publishing anti Mormon
literature also are the exact

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same ones with the exact same
arguments that publish anti

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Masonic literature.
So really Mormons and Masons

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have common cause here because
we're both victims of the same

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kind of misinformation
campaigns.

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So.
Help me out.

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Where did this, where did, did
this kind of animosity between

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the two kick in?
Because, you know, look, Masonry

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has a Freemasonry has a rich
history in America, right?

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The, the founding fathers were,
were all Freemasons.

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Joseph Smith was a Freemason.
Brigham Young was a Mason,

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right?
I think he he wore the pin on

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his lapel or a necklace or
something.

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Right, you were, you were a
square on a compass.

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And, and don't forget even the
beehive, which is of course a

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major symbol of Mormonism and,
and it's symbolism as

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representing community and
industry and the harmony that

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should exist amongst brethren is
a Masonic symbol that was was

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used for a long time.
And so when it was adopted by

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Mormons, it was adopted directly
from this same cultural context

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that was already well known to
people.

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Like you said, Masonry actually
was also very, very common.

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That's another thing to that
people have to understand is

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that especially in the 1800's,
the American culture was so

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deeply steeped in Masonry.
Masonry was so common, so nearly

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universal as to be one of the
basic cultural touchstones of

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the entire era.
And, and it still exists even

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just in basic common phrases
that people say like, Hey, let

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me level with you.
That's a Masonic term.

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It means I'm going to meet you
on as an equal or the square

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deal, like you just said, right?
Whether or, or even a square

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meal is a Masonic term it.
And So what are they doing?

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They're, they're drawing from
these symbols that were used in

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stone masonry or architecture,
such as a level.

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I mean, if anybody's ever built
anything, you've used a level.

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And in many cases, you'll also
end up using a square so that

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you can make the work at proper
90° angle, so it all fits

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together and things like that,
right?

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All of those symbols are symbols
used by Freemasonry, of course,

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but the difference is, is that
instead of just using them as

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tools of architecture, they're
considered to be symbolic.

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And so that's really the the two
different kinds of masonry.

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Most of everybody knows that if
a bricklayer builds a house,

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it's they're called a Mason, a
brick Mason or a stone Mason

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that makes something out of
stone.

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But a symbolic Mason or a
Freemason means the symbolic

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philosophical use of those
terms.

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So instead of using a level to
level the building that you're

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building so that you can make
sure everything lines up

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correctly, you're using the
level symbolically to mean that

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you meet people as.
Equals you treat people.

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With common human dignity.
So for example, when our

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Founding fathers were saying
things like we should have

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equality or equal rights, those
are Masonic terms.

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And, and as Masons, they would
have just recognized that as

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basic philosophical language to
express an idea, right?

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Including just ideas about human
rights and, and things like

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that.
So, so, yeah, when we look at

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Freemasonry and you understand
that it has the long cultural

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heritage that honestly answers a
lot of the questions about why

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people make these these
accusations against it, for one

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thing, because, yeah,
Freemasonry kind of became

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political at times.
Now, Freemasonry prides itself

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on not being partisan.
OK, but Freemasonry definitely

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is political in the grander
sense that Freemasonry does have

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a name.
It does have a goal, a political

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goal of advancing human rights.
And so for centuries, the only

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institution in the world for
centuries that used systems like

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voting, that allowed people to
vote, was Freemasonry.

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It's the world's oldest
fraternity and it was one of the

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first institutions where people
would be equals.

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It wasn't the king and the
peasants or the nobility and the

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commoners.
It was everybody who's a

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Freemason is treating each other
as equals.

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And therefore how do you make a
decision amongst equals?

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You can't just defer to the king
or the leader person.

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You have to say, well, we're
going to decide amongst

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ourselves what we're going to
do.

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And thus voting was kind of
brought back into the world.

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Now everybody knows that the
ancient Greeks had voting at one

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point or whatever, right?
But the concept of democracy,

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the concept of human rights, the
concepts of equality, none of

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those things really existed
anymore in the world for for

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millennia really, there was no
society that actually used any

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of those tools.
And so Freemasonry started

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saying, hey, you know, the same
way that we treat other Masons

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from these other guilds, and we
treat each other as fellow

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masters of our work, masters of
our art, and architects, the

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same way that we treat each
other as equals.

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Maybe we should all treat each
other as equals.

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Right.
And once they started doing

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that, there became this
political thing.

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And this is where I think anti
masonry starts coming in.

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Is that any institution that
prided itself on being the best,

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being the one true faith, or the
one true King or the one true

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anything like that, who had a
divine right to be above Other

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people started viewing these
Freemason guilds throughout

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Europe as a threat because they
were bringing out these radical

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ideas of human rights, equality,
fair play, voting, term limits.

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Term limits comes from Masonry,
for example.

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I am what's called a past
Master.

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So I was made the Master of my
lodge.

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It is like, you know, the
highest office within your

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lodge.
But guess what?

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We have currently have in our
lodge a term limit of one year.

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You get to be in charge, but you
only get to be in charge for one

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year, and then you step down and
you're just equal with everybody

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else again.
Nice.

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So all of those things.
And so it became political.

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So getting back to like, where
did some of this real conflict

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come in?
It goes all the way back to the

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Knights Templar, who have a
historic connection to

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Freemasonry.
Now, that's not the same thing

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as saying we are the Knights
Templar.

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The Knights Templar did things
that we don't do and things like

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that.
But there were a lot of major

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connections there.
And when the Knights Templar

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were wiped out by papal decree
and declared heretics, Masonry

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since that time, not
immediately, but since that time

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has had an increasingly tense
relationship with the Catholic

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Church.
And even today, unfortunately,

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I, I know some good Catholic
Masons, but unfortunately the

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Catholic Church did reaffirm, I
want to say within the last

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decade or two, that they
consider being a Freemason to be

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living in a state of sin.
And that you cannot be in full

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fellowship and you cannot be a
Catholic priest, for example,

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and be active in Freemasonry.
Is that because it threatens the

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the power of the papal seat?
Is is that what we're looking

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at?
I.

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Mean, I, I mean, as a, as a
Mason, I can only speak from my

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point of view, right?
Of course, I know a lot of

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Catholics.
I'll, I'll do my best to

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represent them fairly.
But from my point of view, I

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don't think we're threatening
anybody.

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But we do have one belief, I
guess you could say we're, we're

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very non dogmatic, but we do
have certain values I think.

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And in Freemasonry we believe in
this equality and freedom of

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religion that I think they
equate with the heresy of saying

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that if all men are equal, then
being a Catholic or not being a

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Catholic is considered
equivalent.

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They see that as heresy against
their claims to being the one

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true Apostolic and Catholic in
universal faith because Masons

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accept men of every creed and
denomination and belief and

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political persuasion in the
world to become Masons and then

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to be treated as equals within
the organization of Masonry.

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Now, that doesn't mean that I
think that everyone's religion

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is just as valid as mine.
So I don't see why that's

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necessarily a threat.
But I do think that is a source

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of the historic threat that the
Catholic Church found in

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Masonry, particularly in some of
some of the what are called

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appendant bodies in the in the
Scottish Rite.

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For example, one of the things
that we are taught that we

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strive for in the Scottish Rite
degrees of Free Masonry, that

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would be the 4th through the
33rd degree of the Scottish

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Rite.
We do talk about defending the

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rights of freedom of religion
and defending rights of

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conscience and, and insisting
upon an absolute separation

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between church and state as
values that we're trying to put

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00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,120
forward as that in that
organization.

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00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:42,640
Now, again, that's not core
Masonry.

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That's what's called the pendant
body.

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00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,120
You think like an auxiliary
organization.

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00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,320
It's like being a member of the
Sunday school instead of just a

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00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:50,840
member of the church, so to
speak.

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00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,280
Right.
So it's, it's ancillary, but

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00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,920
it's still within the body of
regular Freemasonry.

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00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,360
And yeah, we talk about those
things as ideals that we want.

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And I think that, you know, for
the Pope, who is it was also, by

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00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,000
the way, a head of state, the
idea of separation of church and

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00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:07,720
state is not something
historically they're fully

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00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,000
comfortable with.
Sure.

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00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,160
Racism.
Well, yeah, I mean, I don't

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00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,440
think there's there's any doubt
that that the idea of the divine

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00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:23,440
right of kings, right, that, you
know, that it goes from God to

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00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,240
the king.
And and don't forget, like we as

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00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:28,600
Americans, we kind of scoff at
that.

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00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,960
We don't really believe in that.
But there's a, there's a strong

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00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,960
historical basis for viewing
that as a very bad idea from,

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00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,080
from a lot of countries that are
monarchists and things like

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00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,040
that, right.
If you've ever read or watched,

247
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,480
I suppose The Three Musketeers,
the Musketeers are good guys and

248
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,520
they are protecting the divine
right of the king.

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00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,720
And the bad guy in the story is
Cardinal Richelieu.

250
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,880
And Cardinal Richelieu was a
French cardinal who heretical to

251
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,280
the Catholic Church, was a
Freemason and insisted upon a

252
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,040
separation of Church and state.
That he, the Cardinal Richelieu,

253
00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,720
thought that the Catholic Church
should not impose upon the crown

254
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,280
and the crown should not impose
upon the Church.

255
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:09,760
And this was considered
heretical by both of them

256
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,520
because the Catholic Church
wanted to control the French

257
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:15,040
crown and all the, and a bunch
of the other heads of state in

258
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,000
Europe at the time.
And the king of France wanted to

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00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,120
be able to say, I as king, I am
head of church and state.

260
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,560
And so that's the source of the
conflicts from the novel that we

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00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,120
know of, The Three Musketeers.
That's fascinating.

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00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,200
So I want to go back to, into
the history a little bit because

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00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,040
there's some things that I'll be
honest, look, I'm learning with

264
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:41,400
the audience here, but I, I want
to go back to what the common

265
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,280
understanding is of, of, of the
history.

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00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:49,360
When is you talked about the
Freemasons are there, I mean,

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00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,840
excuse me, the Templars, the
Templars, excuse me, is there

268
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,760
actual documented connection
between the Templars and

269
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,840
Freemasonry?
Or is there enough there for you

270
00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,720
to look at and make some
reasonable connections right?

271
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,800
Right.
So I would say that there's

272
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:10,240
enough of a there there that it
is a very reasonable belief that

273
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,480
Freemasonry intended itself to
be a continuation of the

274
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:19,440
mysteries and the ideas and even
the organization to some extent

275
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:24,240
the the institutional authority
of the Knights Templar being

276
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,840
continued in Freemasonry.
However, I use the word belief

277
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,600
in there for a reason.
Historians are not going to make

278
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,920
a direct equivalency, and I
wouldn't either.

279
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,120
I don't think philosoph, I don't
think it's fair to make a direct

280
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,040
equivalency that we just are the
Knights Templar.

281
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,640
But here's here's what it comes
down to the Freemason guilds,

282
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,000
which we have documentary,
documentary evidence that is

283
00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,400
actual written documents still
in existence that go back at

284
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:56,680
least into the 1300s.
We have artifact examples of

285
00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,800
Freemasonry similar to what
we're doing now as a symbolic

286
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,599
teachings and practices
regarding architecture and

287
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:05,720
mathematics and things like
that.

288
00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,960
Though we definitely goes no,
goes back to even before the

289
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,480
establishment of the Knights
Templar, probably the 9th

290
00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,079
century at least.
Besides the fact that, I mean,

291
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:17,040
if you go all the way back into
ancient Egypt, like ancient

292
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,800
ancient Egypt, they're using the
plum, the square and the level

293
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,760
tools of architecture as
symbolic and sacred symbolism

294
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,440
even back like I'm saying like
4000 years or something.

295
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,880
So all of those but but does
that make them Freemasons?

296
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:36,600
Not exactly OK right?
Because right now what is

297
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:37,880
Freemasonry?
Right now?

298
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:43,160
It is a fraternity open to good
men of all races, creeds and

299
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:50,080
religions who want to promote
unity, meet upon an equality and

300
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,360
build brotherhood and like help
their community and stuff like

301
00:17:53,360 --> 00:17:55,320
that.
What were they doing back in the

302
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,640
ancient days?
Might have similar symbols but

303
00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,840
not be the same thing at all,
right?

304
00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,320
Not only might it not have been
a fraternal organization, they

305
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:04,000
might have been considered more
religious symbols.

306
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,200
They might have been a lot of
other things like the Knights

307
00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,640
Templar were essentially like a
a priesthood in a lot of ways,

308
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,160
which Freemasonry does not claim
to be in any way.

309
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:19,160
There's no authority of office
that serves a Sacramento purpose

310
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,920
or a priesthood type purpose
anywhere in Freemasonry.

311
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,000
So, for example, in Freemasonry
now, one of the things we insist

312
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,840
upon explaining to people is
that Freemasonry is not a

313
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,480
religion and it doesn't conflict
with your religion because it

314
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,640
does.
Its purpose is not to bring you

315
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,720
to God.
There's no Masonic ceremony in

316
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,800
which you are placed into a
different relationship to deity

317
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,560
than what is that comes about in
your own faith, Right.

318
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,080
And we're not dogmatic.
We don't have a, a set of

319
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,440
doctrines or dogmas or beliefs
or catechisms that you have to

320
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,480
adhere to a particular
interpretation of.

321
00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:00,240
But we are trying to use
religious symbols, use

322
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:06,200
scriptural stories, use ancient
legends and histories to try to

323
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,560
point out moral lessons.
So when we talk about the

324
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:10,960
Knights Templar information,
we're not saying, oh, yeah, we

325
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,640
are a continuation of a
priesthood of Catholic

326
00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,920
crusaders.
Not at all.

327
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,800
What we're trying to do is say,
look, these ancient Catholic

328
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:24,840
crusaders, they had some ideas
and some of those ideas are

329
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,680
valuable ideas.
So let's learn from their

330
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,920
experience, their, their
successes and their failures and

331
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,400
try to use that as a lesson that
teaches us how to be better men.

332
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,360
Because we can see the examples
of men who've gone before us and

333
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:37,720
what they did right and what
they did wrong.

334
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,920
And how can we build upon a
foundation of our own history in

335
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,440
a way that makes us better men,
that helps us to understand our

336
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,560
culture, helps us to understand
our history.

337
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:50,000
But that's not the same thing as
being one of them, right?

338
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:56,480
Like, like I love history.
We and I know you do you, for

339
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,440
example, even wrote a book about
our founding fathers and you've,

340
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:03,600
you've, you've, you've written
on these, these men.

341
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,120
But does that make you one of
the founding fathers?

342
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:07,600
Not exactly right.
You know about them.

343
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,120
You treasure what they've taught
you.

344
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,560
You perpetuate some of their
ideals.

345
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:16,520
That it doesn't make you a
founding father.

346
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,760
It makes you a patriot, maybe,
but not a founding father.

347
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:25,760
So I'm not a, I'm not a Templar.
But I Freemason, I do try to

348
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,920
learn from the good truths that
they had and carry them on.

349
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,160
Gotcha.
So maybe maybe a good way of

350
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:38,280
putting that too that you guys
are the the beneficiaries or or

351
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:43,720
the the the keepers of some of
that that knowledge that they

352
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,400
had passed out.
And, and a lot of that knowledge

353
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:50,320
and traditions surprises people.
They keep thinking, oh, the

354
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,720
Freemasons, they they have
secrets, right?

355
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,560
People talk about secrecy in
Freemasonry, but most of the

356
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,240
Masons secrets, so-called aren't
really secrets.

357
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:01,840
They're things like middle
school math.

358
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,840
OK, well, Freemasonry,
Freemasonry uses as a symbol a

359
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,560
lot of the tools and ideas that
you learn about in basic

360
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,040
geometry.
OK, so the secret of pie or the

361
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:19,360
secret of, of the golden ratio,
the secret of, of the

362
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:24,000
Pythagorean theorem, they're not
secrets in the sense that nobody

363
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,960
knows about them.
They're secrets in the idea that

364
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:32,320
by looking at the beauty of the
world and the beauty and

365
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:37,320
simplicity of mathematics, we,
we tell each other as members of

366
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,000
the fraternity that we should
see in the works of God that

367
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,120
there is a God.
We should find hope and

368
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:51,600
understanding and faith maybe,
and these virtuous ideals by

369
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,160
using these things as symbols or
ways of understanding the world.

370
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,360
So, yeah, again, it's not that,
it's not that the, the math

371
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:02,120
itself is a secret.
It's that there is something

372
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:05,440
more to be found there than the
banality of just numbers on a

373
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,480
page.
There's a truth, a deeper truth

374
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,560
to find within it symbolically.
Now the fun thing about this is

375
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,480
that as I said earlier, Masons
are non dogmatic.

376
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,640
So we don't say the Pythagorean
theorem means XY and Z and

377
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:20,960
that's the only right
interpretation.

378
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:22,600
And you have to believe in that
dogmatically.

379
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,440
What we do is we take things
like the Pythagorean theorem or

380
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,880
one of the one of the problems
of Euclid.

381
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,840
The 42nd problem with Euclid is
the Pythagorean theorem and we

382
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,200
actually use that as a Masonic
symbol.

383
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,720
So in one of the degrees we say,
look to this example of the 42nd

384
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:44,040
problem of 42nd problem of
Euclid as a as a symbol.

385
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,120
And it's like, well, what does
that mean?

386
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:47,320
Why?
Why are we looking at this as a

387
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,080
symbol?
Well, I can only tell you what

388
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,600
it means to me.
And what it means to me is that

389
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,560
there is order in the universe.
To me that points to the Masonic

390
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:01,880
idea that God is the great
architect of the universe.

391
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:08,360
That in something as simple as
math, we can see something that

392
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:12,720
goes far beyond numbers on a
page and gives us hope that

393
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:19,000
there is a God that that God is
a God of order, a God of that's

394
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:24,520
that can be understood, a God
that creates a world that has

395
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,960
meaning and order to it.
Right now, like I said, there

396
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,520
are Masons of all kinds of
different religions.

397
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,120
I'm the, I'm one of the only
Mormon fundamentalist Masons

398
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:40,120
that I've ever met.
So I draw different lessons

399
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:44,680
maybe than other Masons do.
Most Masons are Christian, most

400
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,400
of them are not Mormon.
But there are, there are Muslim

401
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,040
Masons that I know.
There are Hindu Masons that I

402
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,800
know.
And they will look at it and

403
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,400
they'll say, oh, this reminds me
of something from my faith and

404
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,040
maybe take a slightly different
interpretation.

405
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,960
And in Masonry, that's
considered totally valid because

406
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,600
nobody is over or above anybody
else.

407
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,440
We're all meeting in exact
quality.

408
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:09,880
So what are we going to?
So, so for example, these types

409
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,400
of discussions in our meetings
about something like the 42nd

410
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,760
problem of Euclid, it's not
going to be somebody saying this

411
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,080
is the dogma, you should obey
it.

412
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,360
It's going to be a bunch of us
sitting around saying, you know,

413
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:23,360
this reminds me something about
something in my own faith or

414
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:27,040
this reminds me of something
that I read about in science or,

415
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,880
you know, cutting edge, weird,
fun stuff.

416
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,440
Just because we like this, like
quantum mechanics.

417
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,760
How how is it that the
uncertainty principle can mean

418
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,080
something to us?
And we'll debate it and we'll

419
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,680
all have our own different
points of view.

420
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,520
And then we'll all commit to one
basic set of values, which is

421
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,520
the fatherhood of God and the
brotherhood of man.

422
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,160
That regardless of our
differences in faith that we're

423
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,560
going to meet on an equality and
we're going to find value in

424
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,320
each other and we're going to
support each other and try to

425
00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:01,680
build community together, right?
So that, that's kind of why it's

426
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,400
a fraternity, I think is that
it's, it's seeking for a

427
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,200
particular ideal of community,
which is bringing men together

428
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,280
who it might otherwise never
have met and making them equals

429
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,480
so that they can build something
together.

430
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,480
I mean, symbolically, maybe
build something, maybe even

431
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,720
literally if they're working
stone Masons, build something

432
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,240
together.
That's a benefit to everybody.

433
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,760
And so there are men in my lodge
who I never would have been

434
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,600
friends with if it wasn't for
Freemasonry, because we travel

435
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,640
in totally different circles,
different, different careers,

436
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,920
different religions, different
all kinds of things.

437
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,000
But now that we're in the same
Masonic Lodge together, we can

438
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,320
build up our communities here in
Utah County, where I live, by

439
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:52,080
doing charitable works and
promoting certain things and

440
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,280
having that common cause.
Where we're, you know, we're

441
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,000
pulling together to build up our
community in a way that we never

442
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,040
would have otherwise.
Because we're in completely

443
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,440
different religions, different
races, different religions,

444
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,000
different social circles,
different careers.

445
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:09,360
But now, as fellow Masons, we're
all pulling together,

446
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,760
essentially.
Gotcha.

447
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:16,000
OK, so let me ask this question
and follow up.

448
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,840
You, you mentioned you're not
dogmatic, right?

449
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,040
Right.
Which really is the only way

450
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,920
that a group like the Masons
could work because you're going

451
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,680
to have far too many guys with
different religions to unless

452
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:28,840
you want the fist fight.
Right.

453
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,640
We're not all going to, we're
not going to all agree on

454
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,560
anything, not even that Jesus is
real or that Jesus is God.

455
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,280
They'll be Hindus.
We'll be like, Oh, well, I don't

456
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,800
think about Christianity much,
you know, and things like that,

457
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,600
right?
Right.

458
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:46,160
But would you say that a belief
in God, whatever that God is, is

459
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,320
a is kind of a prerequisite?
Yeah.

460
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,760
So they generally say that no
atheist can be made in Mason.

461
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:59,040
Now, that's not to say that we
define it for people, what that

462
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,080
means, what God means.
But, you know, just put my cards

463
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,920
on the table here because I'm
really not convinced that

464
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:09,320
secrecy about this is helpful.
I think it's better to tell

465
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,200
people details that frankly
aren't that secret anyway.

466
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,480
Is that in the beginning of
Freemasonry, the very beginning,

467
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,640
if, if you ever try to become a
Freemason, one of the first

468
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,960
things that they're going to ask
you is in whom you put your

469
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,480
trust.
What is the basis for your

470
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,320
faith?
And if you say I don't believe

471
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,440
in anything, I don't even
believe in a certain world.

472
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,520
I don't believe that the sun
will necessarily rise tomorrow.

473
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,680
I don't believe in anything,
then you're not going to be made

474
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,120
of Mason.
But if you can express some

475
00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:42,280
belief in a God or some belief
in even just the beauty and

476
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:48,240
order that are demonstrated by
the natural world, I mean, it's

477
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,560
pretty loose definition, then
yes, you can be made of Mason.

478
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,200
But so basically it, you have to
express your belief in God.

479
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,760
Now, some people are pagans or
who knows what, right?

480
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,720
And they're still welcome to be
Masons.

481
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,600
But I, I think traditionally
there's two reasons why atheists

482
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,760
can be made Masons.
And one of them is extremely

483
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:07,600
archaic and has nothing to do
with modern atheists.

484
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:10,640
And so I'll tell you that one
first.

485
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,080
The term atheist meaning without
God didn't originally mean

486
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,520
people who reject belief in a in
a God.

487
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,440
It meant people who are too
ignorant and illiterate to know

488
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:25,240
about God.
So the original definition of

489
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:30,360
the term atheist as used in like
the 141516 hundreds wasn't about

490
00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:33,560
the philosophical assertion that
you reject gods.

491
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,200
It was about being so illiterate
that you didn't even know about

492
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,400
God.
And so and and Masonry did not

493
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,360
accept illiterates into its
ranks.

494
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,840
Freemasonry was meant for people
who could understand deeper,

495
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,120
higher order thinking, right?
And that that's part was part of

496
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,880
the point because what are we
trying to do originally before

497
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,640
it was just before it was even
primarily symbolic.

498
00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,920
This was a this was a career
path, right?

499
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,440
If people were going to become a
master Mason, it meant that you

500
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:04,480
were an architect.
You understood the principles of

501
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,240
architecture well enough to
build buildings that aren't

502
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,400
going to fall down on anybody.
Right.

503
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,240
So as an importion, so as a
profession, there's certain

504
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,920
professional standards you've
got to be literate before we're

505
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,520
going to be able to teach you
the orders of math necessary to

506
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,400
build buildings properly so they
don't fall down.

507
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,040
But the other reason that's
expressed more often now as to

508
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:32,280
why you can't be an atheist and
be a Mason was the idea that if

509
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:37,680
you promised us in our mutual
society, you promised this

510
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,360
mutual support of brotherhood,
but you didn't believe that

511
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,440
there was anyone to hold you
accountable, to keep your oath,

512
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,320
then what was the point of
promising that you would treat

513
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,160
one another as brothers?
You could be some kind of

514
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,960
turncoat, A faithless friend, if
you didn't have some belief that

515
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,520
you would be held to such
promises.

516
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,720
Now that does lead me into the
next thing I kind of want to get

517
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,640
into if I just don't mind
jumping to it too much, which is

518
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,240
similarities between Mormonism
and Masonry.

519
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,360
That makes people upset and
makes the anti Masons concerned

520
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,720
is that Masons take oaths,
right?

521
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:18,640
So the idea that you have to
believe in God to hold you to

522
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,400
your oath, well that only really
comes about because at each

523
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,200
stage of Masonry, at each degree
they're called, right?

524
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:30,160
Each ceremony a Mason is going
to take an oath, and that oath

525
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,800
is not anything scary or weird
in my opinion.

526
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,480
There are symbolic elements to
everything we teach and do, but

527
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,480
these oaths are mostly things
like I promise to be honest.

528
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,800
I promise to be good and true
and faithful.

529
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,760
I promise not to cheat wrong or
defraud my fellow brothers in

530
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,800
this lodge.
I promise we promise brotherly

531
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,320
love, relief and truth, things
like that.

532
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,320
And without again, without
dogmatically defining how you

533
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,080
have to understand that, but
simply that you believe in a God

534
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,240
and you believe that you're
taking this oath to uphold these

535
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,960
virtues.
And so each degree has has some

536
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:11,760
kind of promise you make like
that.

537
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,280
But those promises, importantly,
since I want, since we need to

538
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,000
bring this back to how does this
relate to Mormonism?

539
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,920
Importantly, those promises
aren't promises you make to God.

540
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,800
They're not covenants with God
that put you in a covering

541
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,960
relationship with God.
They are promises you make to

542
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:34,480
your brethren in the lodge so
that you can trust one another.

543
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,560
So, so there's a very different
purpose.

544
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,600
It's not a Sacramento purpose.
The purpose of those oaths is,

545
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,880
is, is also not intended to
interfere in any way with your

546
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,800
promises to God.
So there's, there's a little bit

547
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,160
in Utah Masonry, by the way,
every state and every sovereign

548
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,200
country in the world pretty much
has their own Grand Lodge.

549
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,120
It's a separate, that's the
highest possible organization.

550
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,160
So each where you go throughout
the world, Freemasonry can vary

551
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:07,960
slightly.
It all comes from the same

552
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,160
common historical source, same
common historical traditions.

553
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,720
But there'll be some differences
in wording in these ceremonies

554
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,360
or, or, or methods and things
like that.

555
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,880
But in Utah at least, there is
this little preamble.

556
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:24,040
Before a man takes an oath in
one of these degrees, he is told

557
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,200
by the Master of the lodge who's
going to be the one who's

558
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,880
repeating this oath or promise
with him, says to him, this

559
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,000
little disclaimer, I guess you
could call it that I'll reset

560
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,360
for you, He says.
Before proceeding any further in

561
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,760
the ceremonies of this degree,
it will be necessary for you to

562
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,200
take upon yourself a solemn and
binding obligation which, as

563
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,240
Worshipful Master of this Lodge,
I'm free to inform you,

564
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,160
conflicts with none of those
exalted duties you owe to God,

565
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,600
your country, your neighbor,
your family, or yourself.

566
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:02,840
It pertains to Freemasonry only.
With this assurance on right,

567
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,520
and he says, and with this
assurance on my part, are you

568
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,800
willing to proceed and take upon
yourself such a solemn, binding

569
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,720
obligation as all Brothers and
fellows have done who have gone

570
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,240
this way before you, Right.
Because everyone takes the same,

571
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,520
same oaths and promises.
So, so yeah, the idea is it's

572
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,320
not meant to replace religion.
It's not meant to conflict with

573
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,600
religion.
This is why I even know Catholic

574
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,520
Masons, in spite of the fact the
Catholic Church isn't keen on

575
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:34,240
Masonry is because, yeah, it's
not meant to conflict.

576
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,320
And so, so yeah, this, this
history of how does Masonry

577
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,960
affect Mormonism?
It's probably a a good place to

578
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,520
go next.
Before we go there, before we go

579
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,200
there, I I got some more
questions about Masonry in

580
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,640
particular.
You bet there there seems to be

581
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,400
different rights and orders to
Masonry, right?

582
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,920
Yeah.
So what, what, what would be the

583
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:03,320
difference between, let's say,
the York right to the Scottish

584
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,720
right to like the Shriners?
I think the Shriners are somehow

585
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,080
mixed in there, right?
I mean, what, what, what are we?

586
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,840
What are we looking at here?
Right, so most masonry is what's

587
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,600
called Blue Lodge Masonry, which
is the 1st 3° of Masonry.

588
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:26,800
The first three degrees are what
are is what happens in the

589
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,679
regular lodge.
That's probably somewhere in

590
00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:33,199
your town where it says Lodge of
Freemasons #82 or whatever.

591
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:41,080
Those lodges only do 3
ceremonies, 3 basic degrees, and

592
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:42,719
those are the most important
ones.

593
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,480
It's the foundation that all of
Freemasonry has in common.

594
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,080
Those three degrees are an
Entered Apprentice, of course,

595
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,880
named after the apprentices who
first learned, tried to become

596
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,320
apprentices to learn how to do
stonemasonry, fellow crafts,

597
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,640
which is also called sometimes
journeyman.

598
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,320
And that of course, is still
echoed in, you know,

599
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,600
professional societies today.
If you become a journeyman

600
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,680
electrician, for example, or
something.

601
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,360
So the second level is
journeyman or fellowcraft, which

602
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,160
means that they're gained,
they've gained proficiency.

603
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,360
And then the third degree is
called the master Mason degree,

604
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,560
which basically is the master
level where you are supposed to

605
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,560
know what you're talking about.
Now, don't, don't get me wrong,

606
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,600
Masons haven't necessarily
mastered all symbolic knowledge

607
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,680
or mastered all of our history
when they become a master Mason.

608
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,680
But those, those are what the
three degrees are called.

609
00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:39,120
And then at that point you're
considered what's a full Mason.

610
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,280
When you're one of The
Apprentice or the fellow craft,

611
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,360
then you really only attend the
lodge that you're learning from.

612
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,000
But when you become a Master
Mason, once you've done the

613
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,600
first three degrees, then you
can traveled in Masonry and that

614
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,120
means you can visit other lodges
anywhere in the world and say,

615
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,000
I'm a Master Mason And they will
say, oh, well then you're a

616
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,240
brother, come on in.
You know, things like that.

617
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:05,200
So that's how one of the reasons
why you can get that mutual

618
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,880
support or that that
international community of men

619
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,120
that you have in the fraternity
is when you get to that Master

620
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,320
Mason degree.
So but then after that, then

621
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,840
what if people are like, Hey,
this is so much fun.

622
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,680
I really enjoyed this.
And they're active in that they

623
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,120
can do, I guess, extracurricular
activities.

624
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:24,800
These would be the appendant
bodies.

625
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,360
So there's the Scottish Rite,
the York Rite, you mentioned the

626
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,440
shrine.
There's also a bunch of other

627
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,640
much more obscure ones.
There's like tons of them.

628
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,120
I mean, maybe thousands that I
wouldn't even know the names of

629
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,560
that are various obscure
appendant bodies or Masonic

630
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,120
affiliated organizations even
they could call them like

631
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,680
organizations that aren't
strictly Freemasonry but they're

632
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,960
composed of Freemasons who are
also doing this other project or

633
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,520
some such.
But the main ones really are the

634
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,760
Scottish Rite, the York Rite,
and to some extent the Shrine.

635
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,520
So what's the difference?
The Scottish Rite and the York

636
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,600
Rite are both ancient traditions
perpetuated by Master Masons

637
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,960
that go back at least several
centuries, and we don't know

638
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:14,880
about before that with there's
not a lot of documentary history

639
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:20,600
before about 1800 on those.
But those pendant bodies,

640
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,840
basically they go back and they
give more small construction,

641
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,960
more history, more ideas that
kind of expand on the lessons

642
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,040
that you learn in the 1st 3° of
Masonry.

643
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,080
And the first three are found in
in the York and the Scottish

644
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,440
Rite bin.
Yeah, they're, they're, they're

645
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,280
the same.
And at least in at least in the

646
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,560
United States, they're the same
right now where if you you go

647
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,280
through the 1st 3° and that's
just in common, that's in

648
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:46,840
common.
You have to do the first 3°

649
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,840
before you can join the shrine.
You got to do the first 3°

650
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,120
before you can join Scottish or
York writer anything else

651
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,800
because they're basically follow
up extracurricular activities

652
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,800
explaining those three degrees.
So here's one of the other

653
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,760
misconceptions that people have
is people say, oh, are you a

654
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:06,520
32nd degree Mason?
And they assume that 32nd it is

655
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,640
much higher than third, but
technically it's not.

656
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,800
In Freemasonry there are three
degrees, The Apprentice, the

657
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,840
fellow Craft, and the Master,
and the Master Mason degree is

658
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,640
the highest of all degrees.
If you go into the Scottish

659
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:27,360
Rite, for example, and do the
4th through the 32nd degree, you

660
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,920
are just reiterating lessons and
expanding upon knowledge and and

661
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,880
symbolic ideas of the first
three degrees.

662
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,920
So still the third degree, the
Master's degree, is still

663
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,360
considered higher than any of
the degrees in the Scottish

664
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,000
Rite.
And even though they have higher

665
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,400
numbers, they're not higher in,
I guess, authority.

666
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,080
Got you.
OK.

667
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,720
No, that makes sense.
And then the York right is

668
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:53,040
organized a little bit
differently.

669
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,440
The Scottish Rite, which
originally came from Scottish

670
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,800
Freemasons, right?
That's why it's called that.

671
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,320
And then York is also in the
north part of England.

672
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,360
So there's, there's a lot of
similarity.

673
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:10,200
They're basically trying to
carry on various mystery

674
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,960
traditions, mystical ideas.
But really that sounds more

675
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,360
magical than most Masons view
it.

676
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,240
It's more like historical
traditions of symbolic ideas,

677
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,440
philosophical ideas,
mathematical ideas from

678
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,280
throughout the world.
So in the Scottish Rite, I love

679
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,400
the Scottish Rite.
By the way, I'm a 32nd degree

680
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:37,120
Scottish Rite for Mason.
In the Scottish Rite, there are

681
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,840
degrees that try to bring
lessons out of many different

682
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,360
religions and ideas from
throughout the world.

683
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,440
It goes all the way back to
talking about the Mithradic

684
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:49,040
mysteries and the Greek
mysteries.

685
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,880
It it references the Sufi
traditions.

686
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:57,320
It references Gnostic traditions
and ideas, and it mentions the

687
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:02,520
Hermetics, It mentions the, you
know, so basically all kinds of

688
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,960
religions, all kinds of ideas
throughout time, Jewish

689
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:12,360
Kabbalah, all kinds of symbolic
systems are drawn upon to teach

690
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,520
these lessons.
But once again, they're not

691
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,800
trying to pretend to be Muslim
or Jewish or Christian priests.

692
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,800
We're not pretending to do any
of that in Masonry.

693
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,080
We're trying to say, look at
these beautiful ideas and

694
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,560
systems of morality and
symbolism and what can we learn

695
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,200
from them essentially.
So it's much more academic in a

696
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,800
lot of ways than religious in
that sense.

697
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,400
Of course, at the same time,
because it's ceremonial, a lot

698
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:45,600
of Masons, including myself,
have found that it's, it's very

699
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,000
affecting.
I mean, it's very emotional.

700
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,800
It's very beautiful.
It's not.

701
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,800
So when I say it could be
slightly more academic, I'm what

702
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,400
I'm trying to say is it's not
Sacramento.

703
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,840
It's not meant to substitute for
your faith or put you into

704
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,480
communion with God or, or angels
or anything like that.

705
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,840
But it is supposed to be
meaningful.

706
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,520
And in it, I have found that it
does enrich my faith.

707
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:16,040
It does deepen my appreciation
for all things sacred, and it

708
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,680
deepens my appreciation for all
of these other religious

709
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,120
traditions throughout the world
too, and that they all have

710
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,840
beauty and knowledge and truth
in them.

711
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,760
Even if I'd, even if I'm not
going to become a Muslim over

712
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:33,440
it, I'm going to see now, now.
But now I can look at Sufism and

713
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,080
instead of just seeing a bunch
of weird Muslims dancing around,

714
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,040
I go, Oh my goodness.
I remember I learned some of the

715
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:43,280
symbolic lessons upon which they
based their ideas and I now I

716
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,080
can see that there's a common
thread of beauty in it, things

717
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:48,920
like that.
So that's kind of the, the

718
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:53,280
Scottish Rite is much more about
all religions and all

719
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,240
traditions.
The York Rite is much more

720
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:57,080
Christian.
I'm also a Yorkite Mason.

721
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,680
The York Rite expands on these
historical and symbolic lessons

722
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:07,160
of the 1st 3°, but does so in a
way that kind of says look how

723
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:13,280
Judaism led to Christianity.
And so one of the some of the

724
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:18,160
some of the highest degrees of
the the highest degrees of the

725
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,480
York right are actual Templar
degrees.

726
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:23,560
The Knights Templar, that
connection, right?

727
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,280
Again, not being a true Templar,
but carrying on their tradition,

728
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,960
they actually get knighted and
they call themselves the Order

729
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,000
of the Knights Templar at the
highest level of some of the

730
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,880
highest levels of the York
right.

731
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,920
And at that point, what's,
what's 1 of the oaths?

732
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,680
I'll tell you one of the oaths
at the highest levels of the

733
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,320
York right, is that you will
defend the Christian faith.

734
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,280
So they're a little bit more
specifically Christian.

735
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:59,440
So I do know some Jewish York,
right, Templars, but it's pretty

736
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:04,600
rare generally to, to get to the
highest levels of the York

737
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,280
right.
Pretty much everyone there is

738
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,680
going to express and maybe they
don't belong to a traditional

739
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,720
Christian faith.
Some of them are even Mormons,

740
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,960
right, which isn't a traditional
Christian denomination in that

741
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,200
sense.
But Mormons will say, well, I

742
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,280
believe in Jesus Christ.
That's my definition of

743
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:20,720
Christian because we're not
dogmatic.

744
00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:22,680
We're not holding that over
anybody.

745
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:29,240
So I can say I will defend the
Christian faith and IA Jewish

746
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:31,920
friend of mine who became a
Templar said that he didn't mind

747
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,880
taking the oath because he said
I will defend the Christian

748
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,160
faith and the Muslim faith and
the Jewish faith and the Hindu

749
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,720
faith in any faith because I
want to defend people's right to

750
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,720
freedom of religion is the way
he interpreted that oath.

751
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:48,560
And that's valid because open
people can have a valid their

752
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,720
own valid interpretation, I
guess is the point.

753
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,040
Gotcha.
So those are two of the most,

754
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,960
those are the two most ancient
and most important dependent

755
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,400
bodies.
We've also mentioned the shrine

756
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:01,760
a couple times.
I'm going to mention that the

757
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,120
shrine isn't considered a super
ancient thing.

758
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:10,920
It was, it was a more modern
invention, perhaps the shrine.

759
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:16,080
It was originally only open as a
social club to 32nd degree.

760
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:21,280
Masons of the Scottish Rite
would then also join the Shrine

761
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,600
Club.
The Shrine and the Grotto are

762
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:31,160
organizations that kind of draw
upon symbolic ideas from the

763
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,840
Middle East without actually
having a truly ancient origin.

764
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,920
Whereas like the Scottish Rite
and New York Rite, they claim to

765
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,360
continue mysteries that reach
back through antiquity all the

766
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,760
way to the building of King
Solomon's temple, right?

767
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,520
Whereas the Shrine says we're a
social club and we draw on

768
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,040
symbolism, but we were totally
invented later on in the 1800s.

769
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:54,240
Gotcha.
And, and, and they're also

770
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,200
famous for being more of a
social club and more of a

771
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,000
charity to the Shriners
Hospitals were founded on the on

772
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,000
the principle of providing
medical care to children at no

773
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,440
cost.
And still to this day, if your

774
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:11,440
child needs assistance at the
Shriners Hospital, there's one

775
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,680
in Salt Lake City.
And there's, there are various

776
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,040
places throughout the country.
If you have a child with,

777
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,680
there's specialists at this
point right now, there's

778
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:25,160
specialists in burn victims and,
and scoliosis and a couple of

779
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,240
other like specific kinds of
things that are, are childhood

780
00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:30,200
diseases.
But if if you have a child who

781
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,520
needs a specialist in any of
those fields, the Shriners

782
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,800
hospitals throughout the
throughout the world treat

783
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:41,160
children and they never ever
build a patient or their family.

784
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,120
Wow holy cow.
So.

785
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,040
And are they just self funded by
like?

786
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,840
By the nations from the shrine
clubs, from the Masons want to

787
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,280
support them, Yeah.
Interesting.

788
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,720
So would you say each one of
these groups are a monolith unto

789
00:45:56,720 --> 00:46:01,600
themselves or do you do you see
that they're widely, I mean,

790
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,000
what, what is the structure
like?

791
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:05,680
Because there is like a Grand
National Lodge, right?

792
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,280
Well, well, not.
There isn't a national lodge in

793
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,440
the United States.
There are state Grand Lodges.

794
00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:14,080
So Utah has its own Grand Lodge,
and that's as high as it goes.

795
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,360
And so does Colorado, and so
does Missouri has its own Grand

796
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,440
Lodge, and that is as high as it
goes.

797
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:26,960
But these dependent bodies are
in full communion, I guess full

798
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,760
recognition is what we call it
with their respective grand

799
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,160
lodges.
And I would say that there's

800
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,200
going to be a lot of overlap
because the type of the type of

801
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,400
guy who wants to become a Mason
is a certain type of guy.

802
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:41,920
And then there's a smaller
subset of that.

803
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,200
There's the type of guy who's
like, I want to do the extra

804
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,600
stuff.
And then there's a smaller

805
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,120
subset of that is like, I want
to do it.

806
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,560
All right.
So, yeah, I, I, I found

807
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,040
especially in Utah, but in some
other places too, I'm sure it's

808
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,760
also the case that people who do
one, some of them are like, oh,

809
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,240
I want to do all of them.
But there's a lot of people who

810
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:03,480
only do 1 or some of them don't
do any of these dependent

811
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,080
bodies.
They just do the three degrees.

812
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,400
In fact, the Worshipful Master,
that's the highest office in, in

813
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:14,360
my regular lodge that where we
meet up in Provo, he's actually

814
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:15,600
not a member of any appendant
body.

815
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:21,320
He's just a master Mason.
And so he hasn't done the

816
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,920
Scottish Rite of the York right,
or any of those or the, or the

817
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,080
shrine or any, anything else.
He's just done those 3

818
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,440
ceremonies with us in our lodge
in Provo.

819
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,280
And now he's, he's the head
honcho.

820
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,080
But you know, that's The funny
thing too about being the high

821
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,040
Rama Lama or what are they
rubble up dub what?

822
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,840
What's the what's the darn one
I'm trying to think of that was

823
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,280
making fun of Masonry?
I'm a llama or something.

824
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:47,640
Grand Poobah.
That's what it was.

825
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:52,160
Grand Poobah.
You know, again, what does that

826
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,240
really mean?
I have a friend who said, you

827
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,640
know, let's not let, don't let
any of that go to your heads.

828
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,160
All we're really saying is is
that you get to take the lead in

829
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,480
organizing on the fun you're
going to have with your friend

830
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:05,520
group for one year, and then
we're going to let somebody else

831
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:07,200
take a turn.
It's all right.

832
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,120
So even though we call him the
Worshipful Master, it sounds so

833
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:12,760
grand, right?
What does it really mean?

834
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,800
It means he's in charge of
organizing a lot of the fun

835
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:16,840
stuff that our group of.
Friends, he gets to pick out the

836
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,840
sandwiches.
He gets to pick out the

837
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:20,720
sandwiches this year and make
sure that the stuff arrives on

838
00:48:20,720 --> 00:48:24,320
time, you know, and whatever.
Gotcha, gotcha.

839
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,440
All right now, now we can get
back to the Mormons and Mason

840
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,400
stuff, but I wanted to get some
background on that before we we

841
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,680
just dove in.
I felt like that was helpful to

842
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,400
be able to kind of crime thing,
so to speak.

843
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,080
Yeah.
And it's it's tricky that I

844
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,240
can't give more specific answers
on a lot of that history.

845
00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:42,160
Because no and I don't.
It's lost in antiquity, nobody

846
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,920
even knows the full story.
Right.

847
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:50,200
By the time we know about
Freemasons lodges existing and

848
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,520
doing these degrees, it was
already fully formed for

849
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,080
centuries.
Centuries before the 1st

850
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:58,040
documentary.
Evidence that we still have.

851
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,880
So, you know, who knows how far
back it goes.

852
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,600
And traditionally it goes back
at least as far as the workers

853
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,760
who were building King Solomon's
temple in the Old Testament.

854
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,560
And that's where a lot of the
the legends come from that are

855
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,280
discussed in Freemasonry is
referencing the idea that we

856
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,520
were the Freemasons or the
architects who helped build the

857
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,640
ancient temple and built the
churches and temples ever since.

858
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,600
And so there's a probably a good
segue to what's the connection

859
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,000
with Mormonism.
Well, Mormonism also does

860
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,520
temples, talks about temples,
believes in temples.

861
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:42,400
Well, Freemasonry often will
talk about building temples.

862
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,080
And so some people, again, non
Mormons, non believers, anti

863
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,000
Mormons will often say Joseph
Smith was ripping off ideas he

864
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,560
was plagiarizing.
Basically what they're trying to

865
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:58,920
say is, is that he was in this
culture, of course, in the 1800s

866
00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:02,840
where there were so many Masons.
I mean, Oh my goodness, I think

867
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,680
I, I, I was AI was an Arizona
Mason too.

868
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,640
As an aside, when the Arizona
Grand Lodge was established and

869
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,480
they started establishing lodges
in Arizona and I think it was

870
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:21,960
still just the Arizona Territory
at the time, the the population

871
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,520
of Arizona was like 70% male
because it was the Wild West.

872
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,240
They were going out there to
make their money and and break

873
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:34,440
the Wild West, and one out of
every four men in the entire

874
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:36,320
territory was already a
Freemason.

875
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,800
Holy cow.
So when I say that it's 25%,

876
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,840
it's like like right now in
society, you could say to

877
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,480
somebody like, hey, what do you
think of The Avengers?

878
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,720
And they know you're talking
about Marvel movies, right?

879
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:56,880
More larger proportion of people
in the 1800s were Freemasons

880
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,440
than people today have seen a
Marvel movie.

881
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:02,600
Wow.
OK.

882
00:51:02,720 --> 00:51:06,160
Holy cow.
So this was a major, major

883
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:09,600
touchstone of anybody who was
engaged at any level in society

884
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:14,680
in America during that century.
Who so?

885
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:21,360
More so, Masonry was to the
early United States what an

886
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,320
Eagle Scout was to the Mormon
Church years ago.

887
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,600
Yeah, I was going to say not
Even so much anymore.

888
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,760
It was more common than being an
Eagle Scout by a long shot.

889
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,640
And and so it became in in
American culture at the time,

890
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,960
Freemasonry was a coming of age
thing that a lot of men did.

891
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,680
I mean, a lot lot of men,
especially if they want to be

892
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,360
engaged in public life in any
way.

893
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:46,880
I mean, they're sure there were
people who didn't really engage

894
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,720
with their neighbors, but if if
you wanted to be engaged in your

895
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:52,640
community, most men became
Masons.

896
00:51:55,680 --> 00:52:00,080
And so just to give you an idea,
this is the soup from which

897
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,840
Mormonism emerges, right?
This is the culture from which

898
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:09,040
Mormonism emerges.
Alvin Hiram just Smith Senior.

899
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,000
They were already Freemasons by
the time before Mormonism was

900
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:18,000
established, and so were tons of
other people around them.

901
00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:20,480
Tons.
Now, Joseph Smith doesn't

902
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:24,880
actually end up becoming a Mason
until Nauvoo, which is

903
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:29,080
interesting to point out, but
that he would have been at least

904
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:35,080
passingly familiar with Masonic
terms and ideas because everyone

905
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,160
was.
Everyone was familiar with them

906
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,440
whether they were Mason or not.
It was just a major cultural

907
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,480
major cultural touchstone of the
entire era.

908
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,960
So some people will say Joseph
Smith must have come up with the

909
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,160
idea of temples because you have
Freemasons talking about

910
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,000
building King Solomon's temple.
And here you've got a guy,

911
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:58,600
Joseph Smith, saying, I want to
restore ancient Israel to its

912
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,680
former glory.
I want to restore the fullness

913
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,480
of the gospel.
I want to restore the biblical

914
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,560
community.
And what did the biblical

915
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:09,360
community do?
They went to the temple, right?

916
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:15,720
And so, yeah, I mean, some
people will see that as

917
00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:17,400
plagiarism.
I don't see that as plagiarism

918
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,440
any more than it's plagiarism
for Joseph Smith to have

919
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:24,400
believed in the Bible or
believed in Jesus Christ, right?

920
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:30,560
People don't say that Mormons
plagiarized Christianity by

921
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:32,240
believing in Jesus at all,
right?

922
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:34,960
They they say, no, I we
understand you come from that

923
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:36,280
thing.
Well, same thing.

924
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,080
Mormonism came out of
Freemasonry to a large extent,

925
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:41,120
to some extent.
And just there's a few quotes

926
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:42,480
from Joseph Smith to this
effect.

927
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,560
He saw the restoration as
restoring all light, all truth,

928
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,600
all knowledge from the past.
And what was Freemasonry?

929
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:51,040
What is Freemasonry still trying
to do?

930
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,640
What is it claiming to do?
It's claiming to be a

931
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,720
continuation of all kinds of
knowledge, ideas from the past,

932
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,040
be a continuation of that
history.

933
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,880
So of course, Joseph Smith wants
to continue that history.

934
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,320
Right.
Or restore that history to its

935
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,280
former.
Right.

936
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,360
And didn't he also have some
interesting things to say about

937
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:20,600
what Masonry was or is like?
That's one of those quotes.

938
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,360
That this is where this is where
things go off the rails a little

939
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:24,720
bit like.
Because I can't.

940
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,200
I can't.
I've never been able to like,

941
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,680
look, I'm not a historian by
profession.

942
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,960
And typically when I do my
research, because I'm not a

943
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,920
historian, I tend to like to see
things said three times by

944
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,400
different people.
Right, so you can different

945
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:46,280
respect.
And and I can't find 3 on this

946
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,880
right, but it's the one about,
you know, this is what the

947
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:53,520
Masons were, this is what it is.
A lot of that becomes tradition.

948
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:54,800
A lot of that has just become
tradition.

949
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,880
This idea that the Masons are a
continuation of the ancient

950
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,840
Temple ceremonies of ancient
Israel.

951
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,800
Masonry doesn't exactly claim
that either, as much as it does

952
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:09,680
claim Masonry does attempt at
least to reconstruct and to to

953
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,480
give lessons from ancient
religion, right, Lessons from

954
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,640
ancient, ancient legends,
ancient ideas.

955
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,400
But, but let's talk about some
similarities and some

956
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,680
differences here.
Since we're talking about this

957
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,480
idea of where did Joe Smith get
the idea for a temple?

958
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:26,320
Well, maybe you got the idea for
a temple from Masonry.

959
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,800
Maybe you got it from the Bible.
Well, because Masonry gets it

960
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:34,160
from the Bible anyway, right?
So maybe he got the idea in a

961
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,960
somewhat Masonic sense, that
maybe we should build a temple.

962
00:55:37,240 --> 00:55:39,720
If people are talking about
building temples, why aren't we

963
00:55:39,720 --> 00:55:41,000
doing it?
Maybe we should build one,

964
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:46,160
right?
But the the LDS temple ceremony

965
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,560
and the Masonic ceremonies are
actually vastly, vastly more

966
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:55,920
different than I expected.
To give you some idea of my

967
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,280
credentials on this, I was a
temple worker in Saint George,

968
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,600
in Mesa, and in Taipei, Taiwan
for the mainstream Elias Church.

969
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:08,560
I was an ordinance worker.
And then when they made some

970
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,440
changes during my own tenure and
time to the initiatory

971
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,840
ordinances, I got interested and
started reading books about

972
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:20,560
changes in the past.
And I also had my dad, who was

973
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:23,080
sort of a Mormon fundamentalist,
even if he was in mainstream,

974
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:24,920
right, he was fundamentalist
leaning maybe.

975
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,800
And when I got my endowments in
the Manti Temple, he took me

976
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,600
aside in the celestial room and
he said, there's a bunch of

977
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,600
other things you need to know
because what we just did was

978
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,640
incomplete.
And I need to explain to you

979
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,120
that there are penalties that
there were a bunch of other

980
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,720
these, these, these other things
that we're familiar with in in a

981
00:56:43,720 --> 00:56:46,920
more original temple ceremony.
So I was aware of all those

982
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,600
things in the mainstream from
mainstream sources.

983
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,880
Then I became a more
fundamentalist and I became a

984
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,880
temple worker in Christchurch
and I did those temple

985
00:56:55,880 --> 00:57:00,280
ceremonies and only after doing
both of those things and that

986
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:05,120
study did I become a Freemason.
So I go into my ceremony to

987
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:07,200
become an Entered Apprentice,
the beginning of Freemasonry.

988
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,040
And I think to myself, you know
what?

989
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,680
I, I, I've heard that there's
similarities.

990
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,840
So I bet, I bet you, there's
going to be a few things in

991
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:17,800
common at least.
I bet you, I bet you, I'm going

992
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:23,240
to be washed and anointed, and
then I'm going to go into an

993
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,400
environment where we're going to
learn about the creation of the

994
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:30,400
Earth, the story of Adam and Eve
getting their aprons.

995
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,040
Because I was thinking Masonic
aprons is a thing, right?

996
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,280
Because it's a workman's apron.
So that must have something to

997
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:36,440
do with the aprons of Adam and
Eve.

998
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:38,160
We're going to learn about all
of that.

999
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:40,840
Then we'll probably take some
kind of oath or covenant of some

1000
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:45,560
kind, learn some symbols,
including things that might be

1001
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,640
symbolic gestures, for example,
for those who are familiar with

1002
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,040
the temple.
I figure we're probably in there

1003
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:52,280
having something to do with
those covenants.

1004
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,560
And then probably there'll be
some kind of a veil.

1005
00:57:54,680 --> 00:58:00,480
We'll go through that veil, and
then we'll be rejoined with God

1006
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:01,840
symbolically or something like
that, right?

1007
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,360
Those basic elements will
probably be there.

1008
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,600
They're not.
None of those things take place

1009
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,800
in any Masonic ceremony.
None.

1010
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,200
Interesting.
And so I was actually shocked at

1011
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,240
how dissimilar they were after
it had been hyped up to me so

1012
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:22,720
much that Joseph Smith ripped
off Masonry to build the

1013
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,600
endowment.
I was like, they they have, they

1014
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,080
have a fundamentally completely
different purpose.

1015
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,920
They have completely different
content, completely different

1016
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,320
instructions.
Now, do both begin and end with

1017
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,480
prayer in some way or another?
Yes.

1018
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:37,840
An opening and closing prayer
happens.

1019
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,320
That happens in Mass too.
That happens in almost every

1020
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,120
ceremony where anybody does
anything.

1021
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,840
I mean Congress opens and closes
in prayer.

1022
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:48,960
I mean every so.
Are we?

1023
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:52,840
Are we ripping off Congress when
we have a temple ceremony in

1024
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:54,600
Mormonism?
No, right.

1025
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,080
Just because there's a couple of
things in common now.

1026
00:58:57,520 --> 00:59:00,640
So.
So for example, in Freemasonry,

1027
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,520
there's no talk of Adam and Eve.
Their fig leaves are not equated

1028
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,480
with aprons at any point in any
Masonic degree.

1029
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,400
There's no talk about creation
of the world and the oaths that

1030
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,120
you take the promises like I,
like I was saying earlier, none

1031
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,320
of them create a covenant
relationship between you and

1032
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,880
God.
None of them are about that.

1033
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,640
They're about will I be honest
with my brethren?

1034
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:22,920
Will I treat them with fairness
and equality?

1035
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:27,320
Will I, will I come to their
relief?

1036
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:32,600
Will I, will I practice charity?
Will I, you know, be a peaceable

1037
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:34,640
citizen and support my
community?

1038
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:36,280
Those are the types of things
we're talking about.

1039
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,480
And there's no veil.
There's no approaching God.

1040
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,200
There's no one who plays the
role of a priest or messenger of

1041
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,840
God.
God doesn't play a direct role.

1042
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:50,320
We simply refer to religious
symbolism.

1043
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,760
Sure for but but for what
purpose?

1044
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,080
In order to inculcate lessons in
morality so that we can talk

1045
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:01,720
about things like keep your
passions in check, be honest.

1046
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,080
Be upright in your several
stations before God in man,

1047
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:14,200
phrases like and so I and yet,
and yet as as much as it was

1048
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:19,320
very, very different, I found it
deeply enriched my faith because

1049
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:25,480
the experience of it is a
journey from boy to man.

1050
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:32,120
It's a journey from darkness to
light that is supposed to help

1051
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:36,320
you point, point you along the
path of seeking enlightenment,

1052
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:39,200
seeking truth, doing good,
right.

1053
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:43,400
And so as I saw various, you
know, basic religious ideas,

1054
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:49,160
basic moral ideas presented in
this very affecting personal

1055
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:53,760
way.
It, it demonstrated for me that

1056
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,840
these these are grand universal
truths and it sank them deeper

1057
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,040
into my heart so that when I go
back to church and I do do

1058
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:02,560
something for Sacramento
purpose.

1059
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,280
When I, when I go to the temple
and I talk about taking a

1060
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:12,040
covenant with relationship with
God, I'm, I'm reminded that on a

1061
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:16,520
much smaller, more mundane scale
in Masonry, I have learned how

1062
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:20,880
to keep a brother's confidence.
Maybe I can learn to keep God's

1063
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:25,600
confidence.
I've learned that I can control

1064
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:28,280
my passions.
So if I go into a temple and I

1065
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:33,480
take the oaths that we do in the
endowment, I'm reminded that

1066
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:34,880
these things are within my
power.

1067
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:40,040
I can consecrate, I can be
chased, I can I can pray and

1068
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,160
never cease to pray.
When I make those covenant

1069
01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:46,560
relationships with God in an
endowment, it is similar in the

1070
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:53,000
sense that it's it's something
that I know I can do because

1071
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,520
I've learned through Masonry
that I can be a man who takes

1072
01:01:55,520 --> 01:02:00,920
responsibility for my actions,
who can fulfill my promises,

1073
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,400
things like that.
But again, yeah, different

1074
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:05,680
purpose.
So yeah, those similarities and

1075
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:09,360
difference, different purpose,
different structure.

1076
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:11,600
I mean, generally different
structure.

1077
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:13,560
There's an opening and closing
prayer.

1078
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,960
There is a lecture for
instruction, instructional

1079
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:20,000
purposes.
Most eldest people won't know

1080
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:22,120
this, but there used to be a
lecture for instructional

1081
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,440
purposes in the enowments, which
we still do in Mormon

1082
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:29,320
fundamentalism.
There's some symbols in common.

1083
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:33,480
There's a few symbols in common,
most on the nose.

1084
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,240
So I'm going to get to probably
the most controversial thing.

1085
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:42,040
The idea of signs, tokens and
penalties is a Masonic idea or

1086
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:46,440
it's a type of category of
symbol in both Mormonism and in

1087
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:50,120
Masonry, but it's a type or
category of symbol that exists

1088
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:53,680
actually throughout all of man's
religions and throughout all

1089
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,600
time.
Buddhists, for example, I'll,

1090
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:58,640
I'll tell, I'll give you some,
I'll give you some Buddhist

1091
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,680
endowment here because there's
no oath of secrecy involved in

1092
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,040
Buddhist endowments.
You will see a lot of like

1093
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:12,320
Buddhas doing this.
This means cease, cease to be

1094
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:21,120
attached, ceased to cease to to
do evil, cease to think evil and

1095
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:24,200
so forth.
This means good things will come

1096
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,960
to you.
And so the Buddhists, many

1097
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:28,720
Buddhas, will sit there with
their hands like this.

1098
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,920
And why do they do that?
Because it is AI mean.

1099
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:36,560
Heck, it's even an idol that's
not very Masonic or very Mormon,

1100
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:38,800
right?
But this little idol is supposed

1101
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:43,200
to teach even the illiterate a
lesson that if you will be

1102
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:47,560
still, you will know that if you
will cease doing evil, you will

1103
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,840
receive blessings, and so forth.
Interesting.

1104
01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:54,280
So, so this this idea that
you're the position of your

1105
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:57,960
hands has a meaning.
It's not purely Masonic or

1106
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:00,840
purely Mormon.
Here's another one that you're

1107
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:03,880
familiar with.
When we say the Pledge of

1108
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:06,080
Allegiance, what are you doing
with your hands?

1109
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:07,600
They're just.
Covering your heart.

1110
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,680
Are you saying no, you do this
right?

1111
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:14,720
That is what is that?
That is, that is a gesture form

1112
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:17,920
of symbolism.
Masonry does it, Mormonism does

1113
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:19,640
it.
We do it for the flag.

1114
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,120
Buddhism does it.
Everyone does it.

1115
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,520
Every religion does this, but
specifically mentioning that

1116
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:33,040
makes Masonry sometimes seem
more mysterious to people even

1117
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:34,840
though, right?
So the ID.

1118
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:37,920
So if there are, there are some,
but not all.

1119
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:41,080
I will point out there's some
but not all of those gesture

1120
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:46,280
type symbols that may have
certain parallels but not all,

1121
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:49,640
and not the exact same parallels
and not the exact same meaning,

1122
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:51,120
and certainly not the same
usage.

1123
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:59,680
But do we show reverence for the
flag in the same way in masonry

1124
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,800
and in Mormonism?
Yes, and in and in a couple of

1125
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:04,400
other.
There's a couple of parallels

1126
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:06,160
there, but that is the full
extent of it.

1127
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:07,960
Here's the other thing too, that
really surprised me.

1128
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:13,240
Beyond the general reference to
the idea of the of the compass

1129
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:22,680
and the square and one or two
gesture type symbols, there is

1130
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:26,480
nothing left in the LDS temple.
Not one thing, not even a

1131
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:31,760
symbol, not A and not a not a
ceremonial element of any kind

1132
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:34,760
that has any parallel between
Masonry and Mormonism.

1133
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,240
Then the LDS church in there
changing of the temple

1134
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:41,720
ordinances, which I'm not a big
fan of, but I think that it may

1135
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,840
have been deliberate.
They have removed every Masonic

1136
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:48,920
reference and element of every
kind and so a modern mainstream

1137
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:55,640
LDS person who becomes a Mason
will see almost 0, maybe

1138
01:05:56,200 --> 01:06:00,040
negligibly, not 0 because we
both both ceremonies mention

1139
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:05,520
compass and square.
Beyond that, there is near 0

1140
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,880
similarity at all.
Interesting.

1141
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,400
Now you and I are more
fundamentalists and we have a

1142
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:15,480
more original temple ceremony.
There's a few more, there's a

1143
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:18,400
few more symbols that were will
be shared in common.

1144
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:22,880
But again, the mere fact that
both both systems use a symbol

1145
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:25,800
doesn't mean it's plagiarism,
doesn't mean that it's a RIP off

1146
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:27,640
or that's illegitimate.
The same way it's not

1147
01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,280
illegitimate for me to say I
believe in Jesus Christ and for

1148
01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:31,880
a Catholic to say I believe in
Jesus Christ.

1149
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:35,600
And that's not one of us ripping
off Catholicism or something.

1150
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:40,160
It's just my faith.
There's a lot there that you

1151
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:42,240
said.
The the first thing you said is

1152
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:48,960
that masonry in in their in
their lodges seems to follow a

1153
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:52,200
pattern of a boy becoming a man.
Yeah.

1154
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:56,800
Right now, that's a lot
different than the LDS or Mormon

1155
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,360
temple experience.
I don't care which one you go

1156
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,640
through right?
The litter, the liturgy is

1157
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:05,840
vastly different.
Vastly, in fact, basically, like

1158
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,240
I said, almost 0 similarity,
right?

1159
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:11,720
Maybe, maybe there's maybe
there's the general concept of

1160
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:14,840
progression, right?
Progression is a concept is

1161
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,240
present in both, certainly.
Sure.

1162
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:24,120
However, I do think I understand
now why, because you were saying

1163
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:29,080
that that it was just shy of
almost being ubiquitous in those

1164
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,880
early days being being a Mason,
right.

1165
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:39,440
But I I think I understand why
it was so front and center the

1166
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:41,960
West.
When I say the West, I mean

1167
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:47,880
predominantly Western Europe,
America, right the the the West.

1168
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:55,080
Yeah, the cultural W Masonry is
basically the only major and

1169
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:58,280
certainly the most the most
ancient mystery school or

1170
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:02,800
symbolic tradition in the West.
It tries to bring all of the

1171
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:06,160
values of the Western
civilization, as we call it,

1172
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:08,680
into an organization or a
system.

1173
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,480
It does.
And, and look, I love Western

1174
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:15,360
thought, right?
I think it's done wonders for

1175
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,399
mankind.
However, we have lost some

1176
01:08:18,399 --> 01:08:20,800
things along the way.
And one of those, and it's

1177
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:24,279
something I've been studying a
lot lately, is rites of passage

1178
01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:29,160
for a young man, man into into
becoming a man, right.

1179
01:08:29,399 --> 01:08:32,880
What I find interesting is that
there's this idea of an

1180
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:37,520
adolescent or a teenager does
not exist in Judaism and it

1181
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:44,680
exists in very few societies
outside of of Western society.

1182
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,520
Now, that can be good.
But what happens is, is that

1183
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:52,840
we've lost those rites of
passage into manhood.

1184
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:55,960
Yeah, right.
And and so I think I that's.

1185
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,200
One of the reasons I love
Masonry, right?

1186
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:02,319
It provides something that like,
I think we're almost genetically

1187
01:09:02,319 --> 01:09:07,279
disposed to want to seek after
that thing that those such a

1188
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:10,520
part of our culture for so many
centuries that we're missing in

1189
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:12,680
the modern world.
And it just, it's a bummer not

1190
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:14,600
to have it.
Oh, yeah.

1191
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:18,479
And, and, and those rites of
passage were hugely important to

1192
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:21,680
society, right?
Because what it was is it was

1193
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:25,920
investing a young man with this
idea of, OK, you may not be

1194
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,520
ready for marriage yet, but
you're old enough, you should

1195
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:33,160
start taking responsibility and,
and understanding what it means

1196
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,880
to be a man, right?
And so we're going to, we're

1197
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,920
going to call you a man with a
little M, so to speak.

1198
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:42,120
But yet there's still this rite
of passage that happens.

1199
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:46,880
And in the West for, for, for
the average, you know, male,

1200
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,800
we've lost some of those rites
of passage, which I think are

1201
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:53,040
hugely important.
And I think that's part of the

1202
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:57,360
reason today we're seeing the
full fruition of that in that,

1203
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:00,960
well, if there's no rite of
passage, if there's not

1204
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:05,680
something that says, hey, you've
kind of arrived becomes a little

1205
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:09,680
easier to live in your mom's
basement and sure, an inordinate

1206
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:12,720
amount of time, right?
Because there's nothing there to

1207
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:16,320
signal to the psyche that, hey,
you're on to bigger things now.

1208
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:19,160
Well, and you're touching.
On something really important to

1209
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,960
Freemasonry, which is kind of, I
think Freemasonry is designed to

1210
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,960
affect your psyche.
That's kind of the idea of

1211
01:10:25,960 --> 01:10:31,200
symbolic or ritual knowledge is
that you, when you do this, it's

1212
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,040
not even necessarily because you
consciously learn something like

1213
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,200
you think about it book learning
in school.

1214
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:39,280
It's that psychologically you've
been given this cue.

1215
01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:44,640
You're a man now be a man.
Stand up straight, do the thing,

1216
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:49,080
take responsibility, make our
civilization great, right?

1217
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:53,000
In Freemasonry, you, your, your,
your subconscious mind is given

1218
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:57,880
that cue that now is the time.
Now is the time for you to take

1219
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:00,800
your place among men and to make
the world a better place.

1220
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:05,520
But without that cue, yeah, you
get kind of aimless.

1221
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:06,840
Like, I don't know what I'm
doing with my life.

1222
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:08,040
I don't even know if I'm an
adult.

1223
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:11,040
Am I just pretending?
We all have imposter syndrome

1224
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,120
these days, you know, because we
don't know what we are.

1225
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,920
Right, absolutely.
And then the next thing that you

1226
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:20,120
brought up that I thought was
super, you know, that that I

1227
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:27,240
felt deserved some attention
here was this idea of of how

1228
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:31,160
shared gestures, right those
things.

1229
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:35,440
Shared symbolism.
Yeah, if if Joseph Smith is what

1230
01:11:35,440 --> 01:11:41,560
he purports to be and the gospel
is what what we believe Joseph

1231
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:45,600
said it was, we should expect to
see some of those echo through

1232
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,520
history.
If we don't find them, we need

1233
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,920
to be concerned.
Right, that would be a big

1234
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:53,600
problem.
That would be a big problem if

1235
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:56,400
he's not seeing things right.
This is part I think.

1236
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:59,560
I think this is the difference
between a prophet and a seer,

1237
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:03,440
right, is that a prophet can
talk about things yet to come.

1238
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:09,080
A seer can look back and go, Oh,
I recognize this right.

1239
01:12:09,440 --> 01:12:14,600
And I fully expect that that if
if Joseph hadn't queued into

1240
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:20,440
that or had look, that's the
Buddhism and and right Masonry

1241
01:12:20,440 --> 01:12:23,080
aren't the only places where
that's found, right?

1242
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:26,360
No, no, it's been throughout
Hinduism and Jainism and Shinto

1243
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:29,360
and yeah, everyone, yeah.
It's, it's all over the place,

1244
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:31,840
right?
Even Native Americans, the way

1245
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:34,120
they they greet you, certain
gestures.

1246
01:12:34,440 --> 01:12:37,840
Right, and the Kiva ceremonies
are actually more similar to

1247
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:41,600
masonry than than the Mormon
temple submarine is by a

1248
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:43,600
longshot.
Which is interesting because

1249
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:45,480
they grew up in these separate
continents.

1250
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:46,520
They didn't even know about each
other.

1251
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:50,680
But literally the Pueblo Kiva
and the Masonic ceremony that

1252
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:56,080
was participated in by like,
Mozart, they didn't talk to each

1253
01:12:56,080 --> 01:12:57,880
other.
But it actually has greater

1254
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:00,000
similarities even than they
assembled us to some degree.

1255
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:02,040
I mean, like there's, yeah,
there's huge overlap.

1256
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:05,920
Yeah.
And so if, if like some people

1257
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:09,600
get freaked out because they're
like, well, that's that's there

1258
01:13:09,600 --> 01:13:13,560
in in Masonry too.
And, and as you pointed, you're

1259
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:15,160
right.
And it's also there with the

1260
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:17,560
Native Americans, it's there
with the Buddhists and go down

1261
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,680
the list, right.
And if Joseph doesn't cue into

1262
01:13:20,680 --> 01:13:24,600
that, if he doesn't have
revelation about that, where

1263
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:28,560
it's through all these different
societies, that's a problem.

1264
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,320
Because that would be a problem.
Because again, Joseph Smith did

1265
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:34,480
not say I'm here to be an
innovator.

1266
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:37,360
We are going to innovate a new
gospel that never existed.

1267
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:40,280
That's not what he said.
He said, I'm a restorer.

1268
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:43,200
We call it the restoration,
right, because we believe that

1269
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:46,760
it existed from the beginning
and therefore it has to have

1270
01:13:46,760 --> 01:13:50,080
been ancient.
He's just helping us find that

1271
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:52,760
that common thread with the
ancients that connects us to

1272
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:55,480
that covenant of Abraham, right?
Connects us to the ancients.

1273
01:13:56,560 --> 01:14:00,960
Absolutely.
So let let me ask this question

1274
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:05,520
then I want to move on to a
little bit maybe dispelling or I

1275
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:08,320
should say clarifying some
things trying to get the answers

1276
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:12,320
myself.
If if Mormonism, excuse me, if

1277
01:14:12,320 --> 01:14:16,640
Masonry was this for ubiquitous
throughout the.

1278
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:22,480
Period of their America right?
What happens that it becomes

1279
01:14:23,480 --> 01:14:28,240
less so, right?
What happens to Masonry that it

1280
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:31,560
causes it to dwindle?
There's a there's a couple of

1281
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:34,120
big things, and these are major
cultural shifts.

1282
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:36,960
And then a couple of specific
incidents that occurred.

1283
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:40,720
First of all, it was started a
lot of people started viewing

1284
01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:42,720
this as elitist.
OK.

1285
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,400
I was saying almost any man who
was really engaged in a

1286
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:50,040
community to become a Mason.
Well, yeah, but don't forget the

1287
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:53,760
British nobility were a bunch of
Freemasons.

1288
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:59,280
Even the King of England was a
Freemason and a bunch of these

1289
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:01,960
politician types and leader,
community leader types were all

1290
01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:05,200
Freemasons.
Well, there was a huge backlash

1291
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:09,000
in American history in that
century against elitism of all

1292
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:11,680
kinds.
So there was the these political

1293
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:17,520
movements, Log Cabin, Log Cabin
Whigs and things like that,

1294
01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:20,440
right, where they were trying to
say we don't believe in elitism,

1295
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:24,120
we don't believe in that.
You have to be highly educated

1296
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:26,360
to be important and that sort of
thing.

1297
01:15:26,360 --> 01:15:28,920
Now, Masonry is fairly, fairly
compatible with this type of

1298
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:31,960
impulse.
In fact, today most Masons do

1299
01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:34,760
tend to be, again, we're not
political, but they tend to be

1300
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:38,600
more small town conservative
type folks.

1301
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:40,680
That's right in most Masonic
lives.

1302
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:43,680
That's not to say there aren't
some flaming liberals and of

1303
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:45,720
course a bunch of crazy
libertarians like me and a bunch

1304
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:51,080
of other things.
But but the, that, that's the

1305
01:15:51,080 --> 01:15:52,600
trend.
And so there was a, there's a

1306
01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:56,600
big trend against elitism and,
and Masonry was viewed as a form

1307
01:15:56,600 --> 01:15:59,040
of elitism.
So there was some pushback on

1308
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:00,840
that.
One of the next things too is,

1309
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:02,840
is that one of the things you
promised in for Masonry is that

1310
01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:04,640
you will not give up the secrets
of Masonry.

1311
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:07,240
Well, as I just pointed out to
you, I'm up Mason in good

1312
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:09,440
standing.
And yet I'm sort of giving away

1313
01:16:09,440 --> 01:16:13,360
the secrets today.
Not because I I don't believe

1314
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:16,080
I'm violating my any of those
promises because I'm not really

1315
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:17,800
giving away what I consider to
be secrets.

1316
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:21,680
What I consider to be secrets
are things that you can only

1317
01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:22,920
know for yourself in your own
heart.

1318
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,640
The main secrets of Freemasonry,
so-called is the experience that

1319
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:29,400
a man has and the practice of
brotherly love.

1320
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:32,320
That's the secret.
The secret of Freemasonry isn't

1321
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:34,240
something I can tell you.
It's something you have to know

1322
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:38,200
in your own heart by loving your
brethren and practicing charity.

1323
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:39,520
Right.
That's what I think the real

1324
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,320
secrets are.
But but pointing out things like

1325
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:45,760
OK, middle school math and basic
geometry are Masonic secrets.

1326
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:49,440
Well, there was a guy named
Captain Morgan, and this is

1327
01:16:49,440 --> 01:16:52,480
called the Morgan Affair that
occurred in the 1800s.

1328
01:16:54,000 --> 01:16:56,480
Is it the guy on the rum bottle?
It is not actually the guy on

1329
01:16:56,480 --> 01:16:59,480
the rum bottle.
This guy's an army captain, not

1330
01:16:59,480 --> 01:17:03,960
a sea captain.
So very different level of

1331
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:05,800
status there too.
But there was a guy named

1332
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:08,440
Captain Morgan who lived in
somewhere in New England.

1333
01:17:08,440 --> 01:17:11,000
I'm trying to remember where.
Maybe I should have looked up

1334
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:12,560
some more on this so I can tell
you about it.

1335
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:15,120
But this, this became a big
national scandal and a big

1336
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:18,040
problem for Freemasonry.
This guy named Captain Morgan

1337
01:17:18,040 --> 01:17:21,920
said, I'm a Freemason and I do
want to violate my oath.

1338
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:25,240
I'm going to tell everybody
every little secret, every

1339
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:28,000
little anything.
And at this point in the early

1340
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:31,200
1800s, one of the reasons why
there isn't as much documentary

1341
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:35,480
history on Freemasonry going
back into the 1300s and the and

1342
01:17:35,480 --> 01:17:38,840
900 AD and maybe even all the
way to King Solomon's temple, is

1343
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:42,080
that there's a tradition of
Masonry not to divulge certain

1344
01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:45,880
secrets.
So this guy, Morgan, Mr. Morgan,

1345
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:50,000
Captain Morgan, he says I'm
going to divulge every last

1346
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:52,280
thing I know.
And he publishes something that

1347
01:17:52,280 --> 01:17:55,560
you can actually look up anytime
you want now, which is generally

1348
01:17:55,560 --> 01:18:00,240
called Duncan's ritual.
A guy named Duncan took and had

1349
01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:03,480
him write down all the
ceremonies, all the symbols,

1350
01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:06,480
everything, and publish in the
newspaper.

1351
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:13,920
Well, that is a violation
because not because, not because

1352
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:15,960
we're I'm ashamed of anything.
If you want to read Duncan's

1353
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:20,560
ritual, go ahead.
But I still think don't read it.

1354
01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:22,080
Don't read it.
Become a Mason instead.

1355
01:18:22,360 --> 01:18:26,920
Why?
Because it's the experience that

1356
01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:28,400
matters.
It's the brotherhood that

1357
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:31,840
matters.
It's not, it's not the ceremony

1358
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:35,640
that is the secret.
But there was a lot of people,

1359
01:18:35,760 --> 01:18:38,120
there was a lot of Masons at
that time period and a lot of

1360
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:42,680
very angry Masons that he would
publish the entire full word for

1361
01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:45,760
word, every ceremony and symbol
in the newspaper.

1362
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:50,240
And like I said, at that time,
it wasn't written down at all.

1363
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:52,080
It was entirely an oral
tradition.

1364
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:54,080
Masons didn't have their own
little secret books.

1365
01:18:54,080 --> 01:18:56,120
Even where it was written down.
It wasn't written down at all

1366
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:59,720
anywhere in the entire world.
And he says, I'm going to

1367
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:06,040
publish it in the paper.
So, so like I said, it wasn't

1368
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:08,080
even like a leak.
Like we had a secret book in

1369
01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:10,720
our, our lodge and then they got
a copy and put it in the paper.

1370
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:13,600
No, nobody ever even wrote this
down ever in the history of

1371
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:16,080
mankind as far as we know.
And then he writes down the

1372
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:19,400
entire thing and publishes it.
Really pissed off a lot of

1373
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:23,920
Masons, as I said.
And then out in the midst of

1374
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:28,080
this tumult about like, how dare
you and all this, you know, the

1375
01:19:28,080 --> 01:19:30,320
social unrest about it.
Like there was like almost like

1376
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:32,240
a little bit of a riot and
people throwing rocks and that

1377
01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:35,120
kind of thing.
The next thing you know, Mr.

1378
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:38,160
Morgan goes missing and to this
day no one knows what happened

1379
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:40,720
to him.
But it is generally presumed

1380
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:43,800
that with as many people who are
angry with them, somebody who

1381
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:47,240
cared about this probably off
the guy, probably.

1382
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:53,080
Now.
This set off shock waves.

1383
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:56,240
This was the biggest scandal of
its decade of its time.

1384
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:01,240
This was the never forget moment
for people who viewed masonry as

1385
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:06,520
elitist and possibly dangerous.
And now probably, even though we

1386
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:10,800
can't prove it, they probably
killed somebody over this.

1387
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:15,640
And what are they?
What are they doing?

1388
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:16,960
And why are they being held
accountable?

1389
01:20:16,960 --> 01:20:18,400
And why haven't we figured out
who did it?

1390
01:20:18,480 --> 01:20:20,280
Now, to this day, like I said,
we haven't figured out who did

1391
01:20:20,280 --> 01:20:22,320
it.
But people said, oh, well,

1392
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:26,160
powerful people, the deep state,
if you will, must be hiding and

1393
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:28,280
protecting them because they're
all a bunch of elitists.

1394
01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:31,080
They're all a bunch of Masons.
So they actually form a

1395
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:32,720
political party.
They even ran a presidential

1396
01:20:32,720 --> 01:20:36,120
candidate called the Anti
Masonic Party and it became one

1397
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:38,880
of the biggest political parties
of its time, not big enough to

1398
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:41,560
have ever won the presidency,
but it became a very big

1399
01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:42,880
political movement all across
America.

1400
01:20:42,880 --> 01:20:46,000
The Anti Masonic party and
Masons all over the country

1401
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:52,640
renounced being Masons and there
were tons of people who said

1402
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:54,240
don't get involved in it and all
that sort of thing.

1403
01:20:54,240 --> 01:20:58,360
So this created backlash where
it was no longer popular to

1404
01:20:58,360 --> 01:21:01,920
become a Mason.
Now this is the weirdest

1405
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:03,920
connection so I have to bring it
up.

1406
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:08,320
OK.
Morgan was married.

1407
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:16,600
His wife Lucinda was the poster
child of the anti Masonic party

1408
01:21:16,600 --> 01:21:18,960
and movement.
She toured the entire country

1409
01:21:22,320 --> 01:21:24,600
being an anti Mason, giving
speeches about how the Masons

1410
01:21:24,600 --> 01:21:26,520
murdered my husband and
Masonry's evil.

1411
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:29,680
Do you know what she does while
she's on this big journey all

1412
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:32,280
over the country?
She gets exposed to something

1413
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:38,960
called Mormonism.
She then moves to Nauvoo, meets

1414
01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:42,560
the Prophet Joseph and becomes
one of his plural wives during

1415
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:46,200
the heyday of the Masonic Lodge
of Nauvoo.

1416
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:51,120
Shut up.
So she literally goes from being

1417
01:21:51,120 --> 01:21:56,120
the widow of the most famous
anti Mason ever to being the

1418
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:59,400
plural wife of one of the most
famous Masons ever, Joseph

1419
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:04,800
Smith.
I was at that time a Mason,

1420
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:06,200
right?
That's correct.

1421
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:13,680
So, you know, and then there's
so much excitement in the Nauvoo

1422
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:16,240
Lodge too.
And this, this was, this was a

1423
01:22:16,240 --> 01:22:19,080
little bit irregular.
Masonry is supposed to teach men

1424
01:22:19,080 --> 01:22:21,720
one at a time as an apprentice,
like a master apprentice

1425
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:24,920
relationship and guide them
through this whole experience,

1426
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:27,640
right?
The novel Lodge was a little bit

1427
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:33,640
out of order, I'm sorry to say.
As a Mason, Joseph Smith becomes

1428
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:36,760
a Mason and then everyone in
novel wants to become a Mason.

1429
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:40,320
And so the total number of
Masons in Illinois, of course,

1430
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:41,760
don't forget this is a frontier
area.

1431
01:22:41,760 --> 01:22:43,800
At the time, there wasn't a lot
of population period.

1432
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:46,640
The total number of Masons in
all of Illinois was like 3000

1433
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:49,680
men or something like that.
When the novel Lodge gets

1434
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:54,880
started and Joseph Smith becomes
a Mason within like a year the

1435
01:22:54,880 --> 01:22:58,720
Nauvoo lodge makes like 3000
more men Masons.

1436
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:01,360
They double it just in Nauvoo
they.

1437
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:05,240
Double it in just the one lodge.
They just go crazy and they make

1438
01:23:05,240 --> 01:23:10,160
everyone a Mason.
And this of course, is viewed by

1439
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:13,720
Masons throughout Illinois who
are already viewing Mormons as a

1440
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:16,680
political threat, as now a
threat to their fraternity,

1441
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:20,000
because now all the Masons are
Mormons.

1442
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:22,720
What the heck happened?
In one year, you're going to

1443
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:25,400
replace all of us and outvote
all of us, because don't forget,

1444
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:27,000
Masonry is a voting
organization.

1445
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:30,560
You're going to outvote all of
us, but what are you doing

1446
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:33,520
right?
And so that created some of that

1447
01:23:33,520 --> 01:23:36,800
tension.
You know, another interesting

1448
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:41,360
thing is that that's often
pointed out is that with Joseph

1449
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:44,080
Smith and Hiram and Brigham
Young and John Taylor and

1450
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:47,120
Wilfred Woodruff and Orson Pratt
and Orson Hyde and all these

1451
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:50,960
guys becoming Masons and then of
course, doing what?

1452
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:54,960
Building a temple and in that
temple offering ceremonies,

1453
01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:57,680
people want to say, oh, look at
all the conflicts that they

1454
01:23:57,680 --> 01:23:59,600
would have created.
Another, another important rule,

1455
01:23:59,960 --> 01:24:02,600
Mason raising fraternity, it
does not have women members.

1456
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:07,440
It is all male membership.
What does Joe Smith do in

1457
01:24:07,440 --> 01:24:11,800
literally inside the lodge room?
He organizes the Relief Society.

1458
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:16,080
So this has caused people to
speculate for a long time that

1459
01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:20,200
Masons and Mormons have a lot of
tension, a lot of conflict, that

1460
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:25,120
that the Relief Society itself
was a Masonic organization that

1461
01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:30,040
was created as an illegitimate
organization for women Masons

1462
01:24:30,040 --> 01:24:33,640
essentially.
And yet the crazy thing that

1463
01:24:33,640 --> 01:24:37,480
blew my mind when I read this
book from from Cheryl Bruno, Joe

1464
01:24:37,480 --> 01:24:40,720
Swick and and Nick Latersky
Method Infinite.

1465
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:44,360
It's a great book is that they
pointed out that almost all of

1466
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:49,720
that is later justifications.
We we have assumed this conflict

1467
01:24:49,960 --> 01:24:52,840
and created a new conflict, but
it did not actually exist in

1468
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:55,880
Nauvoo.
The Illinois Masons were not

1469
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:59,360
upset about the Relief Society.
They did not think that Joseph

1470
01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:03,000
Smith was an illegitimate Mason.
They there wasn't conflict

1471
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:04,760
between Masons and Mormons in
particular.

1472
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:08,640
There were a lot of Masons
actually who were very, very

1473
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:11,680
upset after the martyrdom of
Joseph and Hiram because they

1474
01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:14,560
said those were fellow Masons
and they were murdered and

1475
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:17,320
therefore we should protect them
and support them.

1476
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:20,360
And now there were some Masons
that were in the mob.

1477
01:25:21,560 --> 01:25:24,200
We found that we've put that
together as well.

1478
01:25:24,480 --> 01:25:27,440
But in general, most of the
other Masons were really angry

1479
01:25:27,440 --> 01:25:28,960
about that.
They were saying no, no good

1480
01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:33,640
Mason would be in a mob.
So really there wasn't that

1481
01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:36,080
conflict.
Now there is one other thing

1482
01:25:36,080 --> 01:25:38,880
that did occur since I'm giving
some anecdotes from history.

1483
01:25:39,840 --> 01:25:45,080
When the Mormons get to Utah or
Deseret at the time and they

1484
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:49,400
start to form a Grand Lodge of
Deseret so that Mormon Masons

1485
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:51,280
will continue to be Masons and
Mormons.

1486
01:25:51,960 --> 01:25:56,880
There are also non Mormons in
Utah who are not friendly to

1487
01:25:56,880 --> 01:25:59,400
Mormons.
And don't forget that the Mormon

1488
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,480
underground period, the rise of
Mormon fundamentalism, the

1489
01:26:02,480 --> 01:26:05,760
persecutions over polygamy and
all of that, that was actually a

1490
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:10,840
much, that was actually an
increased amount of animosity

1491
01:26:10,840 --> 01:26:13,600
in, in society between Mormons
and non Mormons.

1492
01:26:14,440 --> 01:26:19,240
And so the, there's, there ends
up being kind of a race between

1493
01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:23,440
the Grand Lodge of Deseret and
the Grand Lodge of Utah getting

1494
01:26:23,440 --> 01:26:26,760
formed.
The Grand Lodge of Utah wins the

1495
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:29,880
race, so to speak, establishes a
Grand Lodge of Utah.

1496
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:33,720
And then Orson Hyde was very
upset about this.

1497
01:26:33,720 --> 01:26:37,600
He, he actually went to England
to try to help try to get the

1498
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:39,720
Grand Lodge of England to help
charter the Grand Lodge of

1499
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:44,600
Deseret and things like that.
But in the end, one regular

1500
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:47,280
Grand Lodge is established as
the Grand Lodge of Utah, which

1501
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:49,440
still exists today, and
therefore I'm a member of.

1502
01:26:51,800 --> 01:26:56,640
And when that gets established
these non Mormons non Mormon

1503
01:26:56,640 --> 01:27:01,200
Masons from all from all the
states around Utah as well as

1504
01:27:01,200 --> 01:27:04,240
from the eastern States and so
forth, when they form that Grand

1505
01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:09,320
Lodge they decide rather UN
masonically.

1506
01:27:09,320 --> 01:27:12,840
I must say that Mormons
shouldn't be members in good

1507
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:17,320
standing because they've but not
because of direct conflict as

1508
01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:22,000
much as in my opinion rumors.
Which by then had started that

1509
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:26,320
Mormon temples were RIP offs of
Masonic temples because the anti

1510
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:30,920
Mormon literature had already
gotten to the Masons and made

1511
01:27:30,920 --> 01:27:35,280
them concerned that the Mormon
temple ceremonies were

1512
01:27:35,280 --> 01:27:39,560
plagiarized ceremonies for men
and women to become secret

1513
01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:42,240
Masons.
Interesting.

1514
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:44,200
And so they decide not to let
them in.

1515
01:27:44,200 --> 01:27:47,000
The other thing too, is the very
first lodge, which there's a

1516
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:50,480
historic lodge that still does
demonstrated degrees here, was

1517
01:27:50,480 --> 01:27:53,320
the Camp Floyd Lodge.
Camp Floyd Lodge was the very

1518
01:27:53,320 --> 01:27:56,000
first Masonic meeting in the
territory of Utah.

1519
01:27:57,160 --> 01:27:58,960
And of course, what was it made
of?

1520
01:27:59,080 --> 01:28:02,040
Johnson's army.
Interesting.

1521
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:04,520
And so they weren't big fans of
Mormons.

1522
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:08,280
They were, they were the Utah
War army sent to put down the

1523
01:28:08,280 --> 01:28:11,400
Mormon rebellion, right.
So because of those political

1524
01:28:11,400 --> 01:28:15,360
conflicts, there's a time period
that is far in the past, but

1525
01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:21,120
there was a time period in early
Utah Masonry when Mormons

1526
01:28:21,120 --> 01:28:26,000
couldn't be Masons in Utah.
But it was only ever localized

1527
01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:28,560
like that.
The conflict between Catholics

1528
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:32,720
and Masons is like worldwide.
The conflict between Mormons and

1529
01:28:32,720 --> 01:28:36,480
Masons was a very short time
period and only in Utah.

1530
01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:41,680
And there were Masons that were
Mormons throughout the entire

1531
01:28:41,680 --> 01:28:44,440
history of Mormonism.
That never ceased to be a thing.

1532
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:48,240
It was just a bit of conflict
that happened during that period

1533
01:28:48,240 --> 01:28:52,600
for the Utah War and and and
conflict between Mormons and non

1534
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:55,200
Mormons in Utah for the time
period there.

1535
01:28:56,560 --> 01:29:01,800
Holy cow, that is that story
about one of Joseph's plural

1536
01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:04,640
wives.
Isn't that the craziest thing

1537
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:06,120
that.
Is crazy.

1538
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:10,040
That's that crap.
Crazy it is.

1539
01:29:10,120 --> 01:29:11,680
Awesome.
If you want to look her up, they

1540
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:14,800
usually call her Lucinda Morgan
Harris because she married a

1541
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:18,480
Harris after Morgan.
And then they don't normally

1542
01:29:18,480 --> 01:29:22,080
throw Smith in there because she
never used it as a name.

1543
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:25,480
But she's one of the people who
did an affidavit and said, yes,

1544
01:29:25,480 --> 01:29:34,200
I was still to Joseph Smith.
So they continue to be Masons.

1545
01:29:34,200 --> 01:29:36,720
I mean, they went.
When does some of that

1546
01:29:37,640 --> 01:29:41,440
demonization for Masonry as a
whole start to let up here in

1547
01:29:41,440 --> 01:29:44,680
the States?
You know, there's still anti

1548
01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:46,840
Masonic literature out there.
There's still probably a lot of

1549
01:29:46,840 --> 01:29:48,680
people who may even listen to
this podcast who might be

1550
01:29:48,680 --> 01:29:51,320
concerned that Masonry is an
evil organization of devil

1551
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:56,520
worshippers or who knows what.
And that's one of the reasons

1552
01:29:56,520 --> 01:29:59,800
why I think it's so fun that it
really anti Mason literature

1553
01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:02,160
goes right hand in hand with
anti Mormon literature.

1554
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:05,600
It is literally the same
ministries that are anti Mormon

1555
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:09,440
that are anti Mason.
In some cases they literally

1556
01:30:09,440 --> 01:30:14,520
took the same anti documents
that say Mormon temples are evil

1557
01:30:14,520 --> 01:30:18,680
because and then they say it
lies about the temple.

1558
01:30:19,240 --> 01:30:22,320
Literally were pamphlets that
they had already created for

1559
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:25,240
anti masonry that said in the
Masonic temples they blah blah

1560
01:30:25,240 --> 01:30:26,640
blah blah blah and it's the same
lies.

1561
01:30:27,440 --> 01:30:28,960
It's literally.
And then just switch the name

1562
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:32,160
Masonic for Mormon.
Yeah, it's, it's cut and paste

1563
01:30:32,160 --> 01:30:36,280
hate literature, you know.
Yeah, so there.

1564
01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:41,440
And so there's a, there's a a
huge, huge overlap in in, in

1565
01:30:41,440 --> 01:30:43,840
that.
And I think that what happened

1566
01:30:43,840 --> 01:30:48,160
though, too, was in Utah, where
most Mormons lived, and there

1567
01:30:48,160 --> 01:30:50,960
was this conflict between Masons
and Mormons for that time

1568
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:53,400
period.
I think they're developed in

1569
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:57,200
that correlation era of
Mormonism, that Hebrew era of

1570
01:30:57,200 --> 01:30:59,880
Mormonism.
They're developed this tradition

1571
01:30:59,880 --> 01:31:02,280
amongst Mormons of saying, oh,
the Mormon Masons don't know

1572
01:31:02,280 --> 01:31:05,360
what they're talking about.
We have the true Masonry because

1573
01:31:05,360 --> 01:31:07,840
we have the temple, and the
temple is like Masonry but

1574
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:10,280
better.
And you know, so that's where

1575
01:31:10,280 --> 01:31:12,840
that kind of cultural
consciousness idea comes from.

1576
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:17,800
But I mean, having done it, I
don't think that there's much of

1577
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:20,520
A basis to it.
It's kind of a justification for

1578
01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:24,320
the fences, the lines that were
drawn during that time period

1579
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:25,840
of.
Gotcha.

1580
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:30,280
OK, I've got to ask about this
question because this one I

1581
01:31:30,280 --> 01:31:34,680
admit has fascinated me.
And look, I don't put on my

1582
01:31:34,680 --> 01:31:37,880
tinfoil hat for too much,
however.

1583
01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:40,440
But there's there's some real
conspiracies in the world,

1584
01:31:40,440 --> 01:31:43,080
right?
This one, I'm going to, I'm

1585
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:46,560
going to put the hat on for all
right, There is a letter and I,

1586
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:50,520
I know you're going to know the
letter from George Washington to

1587
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:54,880
some correspondence back and
forth warning specifically about

1588
01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:57,880
another group trying to
influence or infiltrate the

1589
01:31:57,880 --> 01:32:00,800
Masons.
Is that legit?

1590
01:32:01,200 --> 01:32:03,360
Did that happen?
Is that a thing?

1591
01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:10,040
Yes, I again, I can only speak
for my historical study, right?

1592
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:14,520
What I what I think I know, but
famous let me famous let me the

1593
01:32:14,520 --> 01:32:17,760
Illuminati by name.
The Illuminati was an

1594
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:21,880
organization in Austria that was
formed by Masons that wanted to

1595
01:32:21,880 --> 01:32:25,520
promote scientific enlightenment
and Illuminati.

1596
01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:29,040
The name specifically came from
the same place that what we

1597
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:32,960
currently call the Enlightenment
or the Renaissance, the

1598
01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:36,760
Enlightenment era of philosophy
and science was supposed to be

1599
01:32:37,160 --> 01:32:41,680
advocating for objective science
and things like that.

1600
01:32:42,760 --> 01:32:46,800
The Illuminati never they
existed for a short period of

1601
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:53,960
time as an actual organization
in that sense and they, but they

1602
01:32:53,960 --> 01:32:56,400
never really infiltrated
American Mason, not the

1603
01:32:56,400 --> 01:32:58,200
Illuminati itself now.
And there are still

1604
01:32:58,200 --> 01:32:59,680
organizations that we're warned
about today.

1605
01:32:59,960 --> 01:33:03,440
There's actually a group called
the Order of Quetzalcoatl that

1606
01:33:03,440 --> 01:33:08,640
no Utah Mason may be a member
of, but was a Masonic break off

1607
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:13,360
organization that we currently
consider to be an immoral and

1608
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:18,040
clandestine organization.
And so there are real

1609
01:33:18,040 --> 01:33:21,080
conspiracies, things like the
owl and key and the skull and

1610
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:22,960
bones, those are real
organizations.

1611
01:33:23,240 --> 01:33:27,120
And in many ways they are break
offs, so to speak, of

1612
01:33:27,120 --> 01:33:29,520
Freemasonry.
Because Freemasonry again is

1613
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:33,760
doing what it is trying to
maintain traditions about

1614
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:38,040
brotherhood and unity and, and
lessons and symbols that go back

1615
01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:41,480
into antiquity, into prehistory
that we don't even know the full

1616
01:33:41,480 --> 01:33:43,880
origins of.
Well, most of these other

1617
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:45,240
organizations are trying to do
the same thing.

1618
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:51,880
I personally do believe that the
the Bohemian Grove Society and

1619
01:33:51,880 --> 01:33:56,000
their Society of the Owl in
California for example, yes,

1620
01:33:56,000 --> 01:33:58,880
they probably have some Masonic
elements to what they do, but I

1621
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:01,880
genuinely do believe that they
murdered Wilford Woodruff the

1622
01:34:01,880 --> 01:34:05,800
Prophet.
I can't prove it, but I do

1623
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:07,560
believe it.
OK.

1624
01:34:08,720 --> 01:34:10,880
So.
So these organizations do exist,

1625
01:34:11,160 --> 01:34:14,120
but I do not want them equated
directly with Freemasonry.

1626
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:16,240
Freemasonry is a much bigger
thing.

1627
01:34:16,480 --> 01:34:18,080
Are there Freemasons that have
done bad things?

1628
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:20,440
Yes, there are.
But that doesn't make the

1629
01:34:20,440 --> 01:34:22,240
organization itself bad.
Are there Mormons that have done

1630
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:23,240
bad things?
Yes there are.

1631
01:34:23,320 --> 01:34:25,040
Are there Catholics that have
done bad things?

1632
01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:27,520
Yes, there are.
But that does not mean we throw

1633
01:34:27,520 --> 01:34:30,520
the baby out with the bathwater
and we we reject Jesus Christ

1634
01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:32,280
because the Catholic Church did
some bad stuff.

1635
01:34:33,480 --> 01:34:36,360
Well, and look back to that,
there were Masons who were in

1636
01:34:36,360 --> 01:34:38,840
the mob that should.
There are Masons in the mob, I'm

1637
01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:41,280
sure that's true.
You know.

1638
01:34:41,480 --> 01:34:43,360
But that doesn't make Masonry a
mob.

1639
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:46,760
That doesn't make Masonry look
that would.

1640
01:34:47,800 --> 01:34:50,240
From the way you describe it,
during that time period in

1641
01:34:50,240 --> 01:34:52,800
America, that would be like,
well, there was a Christian in

1642
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:54,360
the mob.
Well, of course there was a

1643
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:57,120
Christian in the mob.
Because of the ubiquitous Yeah.

1644
01:34:57,160 --> 01:34:59,280
It doesn't mean you have to fear
all Christians or something.

1645
01:34:59,720 --> 01:35:00,800
Right.
Exactly.

1646
01:35:00,960 --> 01:35:04,320
It was, it's a, it's an
organization that has a

1647
01:35:04,320 --> 01:35:08,880
predominant amount of the
population better members of of

1648
01:35:09,080 --> 01:35:12,560
well, of course we would expect
to see that because look, people

1649
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:15,280
suck and people are good, right
and.

1650
01:35:15,480 --> 01:35:19,360
People.
Are both right and, and some are

1651
01:35:19,360 --> 01:35:22,000
good and some stink on ice,
right?

1652
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:28,400
And they're going to infiltrate
every, every, every yeah

1653
01:35:28,760 --> 01:35:32,240
organization.
Well, unlike Justice Scalia died

1654
01:35:32,240 --> 01:35:35,640
under mysterious circumstances.
And that's, that's, that's not,

1655
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:37,320
that's very recent history,
right?

1656
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:41,840
While he was at like a retreat
with, you know, so who knows?

1657
01:35:41,840 --> 01:35:45,040
Like, sure, the, the courts
haven't found proof of foul

1658
01:35:45,040 --> 01:35:48,240
play, but like he's literally
speaking at one of these strange

1659
01:35:48,240 --> 01:35:52,520
secret society organizations.
All of those secret societies

1660
01:35:53,000 --> 01:35:55,600
take some kind of inspiration
from some of the symbols of Free

1661
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:57,400
Masonry because these symbols
are universal.

1662
01:35:57,560 --> 01:35:59,080
That doesn't make Free Masonry
bad.

1663
01:35:59,360 --> 01:36:01,680
Now put keeping that tinfoil hat
on for a second.

1664
01:36:01,920 --> 01:36:05,320
I do want to tell you one fun
thing that I have heard from

1665
01:36:05,440 --> 01:36:08,000
very high level Masons.
OK, we're talking about people

1666
01:36:08,000 --> 01:36:11,240
who are on the Supreme Grand
Council of the world, Sovereign

1667
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:12,880
Grand Inspector Generals of the
Scottish Rite.

1668
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:15,720
OK, so I, I, I know some of
these men.

1669
01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:20,120
They're good men, by the way,
but they are as high a level as

1670
01:36:20,120 --> 01:36:21,840
you can possibly get, and
therefore they would be

1671
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:24,320
connected to the conspiracies.
And I sat down with one of them

1672
01:36:24,320 --> 01:36:27,160
names, Rex, Rex Hutchins.
He's a member of my own lodge in

1673
01:36:27,160 --> 01:36:30,880
Arizona and Tucson.
And I was at his home, and I was

1674
01:36:30,880 --> 01:36:32,960
talking to him about Masonic
conspiracy theories.

1675
01:36:33,040 --> 01:36:34,960
And he said, well, you know,
they're real.

1676
01:36:35,120 --> 01:36:38,200
There is a Masonic conspiracy.
And I was like, really?

1677
01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:39,800
And he's like, yeah, well,
you're a Mason.

1678
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:41,920
I'm going to tell you there is a
real Masonic conspiracy.

1679
01:36:41,920 --> 01:36:43,960
And I'm like, really?
What is it?

1680
01:36:44,600 --> 01:36:46,880
And he goes, it's called human
rights.

1681
01:36:48,280 --> 01:36:52,040
We started that whole thing.
Modern liberal Western

1682
01:36:52,040 --> 01:36:55,480
democracies, as they're
classically called, the liberal

1683
01:36:55,720 --> 01:37:00,400
democracy, those those concepts
of the equality of man and human

1684
01:37:00,400 --> 01:37:05,200
rights and the ability to vote
and that that the just rule can

1685
01:37:05,200 --> 01:37:07,960
only derive from the consent of
the governed, all of those

1686
01:37:07,960 --> 01:37:10,800
things.
A Masonic conspiracy, he said.

1687
01:37:10,800 --> 01:37:14,520
So if you ever want to say I
have rights or you exercise the

1688
01:37:14,520 --> 01:37:18,360
right to freedom of speech,
thank a Mason because that is a

1689
01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:21,000
Masonic conspiracy.
And he showed me a bunch of

1690
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:23,800
interesting histories about how,
yeah, just like our founding

1691
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:27,520
fathers, they were a conspiracy.
They were an anti government

1692
01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:29,760
conspiracy.
Our founding fathers, right.

1693
01:37:29,960 --> 01:37:32,000
OK, let's face it, they're an
anti government conspiracy.

1694
01:37:32,480 --> 01:37:37,120
And there it was a Masonic
conspiracy, but it wasn't.

1695
01:37:37,120 --> 01:37:38,760
But what was that conspiracy
for?

1696
01:37:38,760 --> 01:37:44,240
It wasn't to worship the devil
or destroy anybody's religion or

1697
01:37:44,240 --> 01:37:46,920
even really to hurt anybody if
they didn't have to.

1698
01:37:47,160 --> 01:37:50,240
That Masonic conspiracy was to
secure our rights and our

1699
01:37:50,240 --> 01:37:52,880
liberty.
And that, that is a Masonic

1700
01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:54,560
conspiracy.
And the fact that in this world

1701
01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:58,320
right now, today, there are so
many different republics,

1702
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:00,560
there's so many different places
across the world where people

1703
01:38:00,560 --> 01:38:03,960
can vote, where people's rights
to privacy and religion are

1704
01:38:03,960 --> 01:38:07,360
respected, that is a Masonic
conspiracy.

1705
01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:11,920
So yes, Masonic conspiracy
conspiracies are real.

1706
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:16,520
But you're welcome, right?
They're not so bad.

1707
01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:18,800
Not the true Masonic
conspiracies.

1708
01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:21,600
They're not that bad.
All right, so since since I

1709
01:38:21,600 --> 01:38:27,360
still have the tinfoil hat on, I
I got to know explain to me how,

1710
01:38:27,720 --> 01:38:30,320
what how what you think went
down with Wilford Woodruff.

1711
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:32,320
I got no.
Oh, right, since I brought that

1712
01:38:32,320 --> 01:38:34,400
up with the Bohemian Grove, you.
You brought it up.

1713
01:38:34,480 --> 01:38:37,280
You didn't, you know, a lot of
people don't know this, but the,

1714
01:38:37,440 --> 01:38:41,040
the night that Wilfred Woodruff
died, he was in the Bohemian

1715
01:38:41,040 --> 01:38:44,440
Grove.
He died in California.

1716
01:38:44,720 --> 01:38:47,280
Now he's buried in Utah, but
they brought him back in a

1717
01:38:47,280 --> 01:38:52,120
casket.
So Wilfred Woodruff in what was

1718
01:38:52,120 --> 01:38:54,840
it 1897, I think is when he
died, wasn't it?

1719
01:38:55,320 --> 01:38:58,160
It was maybe 1899, might be
1899.

1720
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:03,120
He, of course, has spent the
last approximately decade,

1721
01:39:03,480 --> 01:39:06,920
almost his entire tenure as
president of the church, trying

1722
01:39:06,920 --> 01:39:10,840
to keep the government from
seizing all the temples, burning

1723
01:39:10,840 --> 01:39:14,040
them all down, burning down all
of our church buildings, seizing

1724
01:39:14,040 --> 01:39:16,840
all the essence of the church,
which by the way, he had not

1725
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:20,560
recovered them.
In the Edmunds Tucker Act of

1726
01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:27,040
1884, all church assets were
seized, including the temples,

1727
01:39:27,200 --> 01:39:30,440
and we did not own them.
Woodford Woodruff was renting

1728
01:39:30,440 --> 01:39:32,640
space in a federal building
which was called the Salt Lake

1729
01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:34,920
Temple.
It was a federal building owned

1730
01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:39,040
by the Commission, the
territorial and then the State

1731
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:40,800
Commission for public Schools or
something.

1732
01:39:42,040 --> 01:39:44,200
So he doesn't own any real
estate.

1733
01:39:44,200 --> 01:39:46,360
The church does not own a single
church building.

1734
01:39:46,480 --> 01:39:48,960
The church does not own any
assets.

1735
01:39:49,120 --> 01:39:52,120
This is why Lorenzo Snow
famously asked the people to

1736
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:55,360
tithe, because the church has
been stripped of every asset.

1737
01:39:55,600 --> 01:39:58,200
He doesn't own a thing.
And Wilfred Woodruff is trying

1738
01:39:58,200 --> 01:40:00,240
to keep himself and everybody
else out of prison.

1739
01:40:01,120 --> 01:40:04,280
He's trying to reclaim some
church assets and just get

1740
01:40:04,280 --> 01:40:09,680
something like in 1896 one the
big push was to try to get an

1741
01:40:09,680 --> 01:40:12,240
amnesty.
That would keep him and the

1742
01:40:12,240 --> 01:40:15,120
other general authorities from
going to prison for polygamy

1743
01:40:15,520 --> 01:40:18,160
because that was still going on.
OK.

1744
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:21,280
The manifesto didn't fix that or
really change anything much.

1745
01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:26,400
And so where are all these
powerful people going?

1746
01:40:26,400 --> 01:40:27,760
They're meeting in the Bohemian
Grove.

1747
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:31,840
And he asks and is granted the
chance to give a speech.

1748
01:40:31,880 --> 01:40:34,320
He gives a private speech, of
which we do not have a full

1749
01:40:34,320 --> 01:40:39,880
record, at the Bohemian Grove.
And then he's dead.

1750
01:40:40,160 --> 01:40:43,480
And that's what we know now.
Do we know if he actually died

1751
01:40:43,480 --> 01:40:46,280
in his sleep that night or if
they stoned him on the spot for

1752
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:48,320
what he told them?
I don't know.

1753
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:53,680
But he comes back in a casket on
the train and is buried in Salt

1754
01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:59,400
Lake City.
And we don't have any record of

1755
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:00,880
what he said there in that
meeting.

1756
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:02,640
We.
Don't when my guess is he was

1757
01:41:02,640 --> 01:41:05,920
trying to.
My guess is is just like he was

1758
01:41:05,920 --> 01:41:09,080
doing in the 10 years prior.
He was doing everything he could

1759
01:41:09,080 --> 01:41:13,400
to to find the right balance
because Wilfred Woodruff was

1760
01:41:13,400 --> 01:41:17,040
saying to everybody all the time
of that whole decade, he was

1761
01:41:17,040 --> 01:41:20,240
trying to say, look, we have to
say something that will satisfy

1762
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:22,480
our enemies, but we can't
compromise the principles of the

1763
01:41:22,480 --> 01:41:24,400
gospel.
He's trying to do both, right?

1764
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:27,920
Wilfred Woodruff was always
trying to say things like, we

1765
01:41:27,920 --> 01:41:32,640
don't want to practice plural
marriage in any way that would

1766
01:41:32,640 --> 01:41:36,680
be offensive to our neighbors.
We will be private about it, for

1767
01:41:36,680 --> 01:41:40,920
example, right?
And Wilford Woodruff actually

1768
01:41:40,960 --> 01:41:46,680
takes a plural wife as late as I
believe that they they claim it

1769
01:41:46,680 --> 01:41:51,040
was in 1896.
So only a few years before his

1770
01:41:51,040 --> 01:41:52,800
death, he enters a plural
ceiling.

1771
01:41:53,200 --> 01:41:55,960
But he's trying to do so in a
way that he doesn't get to

1772
01:41:55,960 --> 01:41:57,720
church in any more trouble than
it's already in.

1773
01:41:57,960 --> 01:42:00,880
So my guess is, is that he got
up there and he said, we want to

1774
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:05,280
be friends, we want to have
peace, we want amnesty.

1775
01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:08,960
We would like our property back.
And that they probably asked him

1776
01:42:08,960 --> 01:42:11,640
something like, yeah, but are
you willing to renounce your

1777
01:42:11,680 --> 01:42:14,000
religion?
Are you willing to say that

1778
01:42:14,000 --> 01:42:17,520
plural marriage is wrong, that
it's evil that you will, that

1779
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:19,480
you will give up any pretense of
being a prophet?

1780
01:42:19,480 --> 01:42:22,280
And he probably said, no, I am a
prophet and the gospel is real

1781
01:42:22,280 --> 01:42:23,840
and it's true.
And they couldn't stand it.

1782
01:42:24,320 --> 01:42:26,280
That's my guess.
Wow.

1783
01:42:26,960 --> 01:42:29,760
And so, you know, when I think
about who's who's a martyr to

1784
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:33,360
the faith, Well, Joseph Smith
clearly and Hiram were killed in

1785
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:39,200
Carthage.
They were martyrs, I believe.

1786
01:42:39,560 --> 01:42:41,920
I believe that Brigham Young was
probably poisoned.

1787
01:42:42,040 --> 01:42:45,040
All the all the evidences that
he was probably poisoned.

1788
01:42:45,520 --> 01:42:48,200
So I believe he was probably a
martyr.

1789
01:42:48,400 --> 01:42:49,760
Wilfred Woodruff, definitely a
martyr.

1790
01:42:49,760 --> 01:42:51,920
Murder.
John Taylor, twice a murderer.

1791
01:42:52,160 --> 01:42:56,200
He was shot in Carthage and he
also died of exposure running

1792
01:42:56,200 --> 01:43:00,000
from the marshals.
Yeah.

1793
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:01,760
The first 4 presidents of the
church, I believe they were all

1794
01:43:01,760 --> 01:43:04,080
martyred.
Jeez.

1795
01:43:06,240 --> 01:43:08,800
You know, one of these days I'm
going to have to do an episode

1796
01:43:08,800 --> 01:43:12,880
just on Mormon conspiracies.
Just to that's my tinfoil hat, I

1797
01:43:12,880 --> 01:43:15,040
can't prove it right.
This isn't provable for history.

1798
01:43:15,320 --> 01:43:17,520
This is just two guys with a
microphone.

1799
01:43:17,800 --> 01:43:21,040
Just the.
Shit, you know, but.

1800
01:43:23,120 --> 01:43:26,960
All this episode 2 chubby Mormon
guys put on their tinfoil hats.

1801
01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:30,960
Right, Please don't call this
episode 2 chubby Mormon guys put

1802
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:33,240
on their tinfoil hats.
But it's not a terrible title.

1803
01:43:33,240 --> 01:43:34,920
It's it's a good subtitle maybe
for this.

1804
01:43:39,200 --> 01:43:40,880
But again, I don't blame Masonry
for that.

1805
01:43:40,880 --> 01:43:43,480
I don't blame, I don't blame
Masonry for Joseph Smith's

1806
01:43:43,480 --> 01:43:46,680
death, even if there may have
been some Masons in the mob.

1807
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:51,120
A Masonry is an exalting and a
beautiful thing.

1808
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:53,520
It was treasured by Joseph
Smith.

1809
01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:58,000
Joseph Smith loved his Masonry.
He treasured the opportunity to

1810
01:43:58,000 --> 01:44:00,200
create the Nauvoo Lodge and be
part of it.

1811
01:44:00,480 --> 01:44:03,720
And he was carrying on a grand
family tradition because his

1812
01:44:03,720 --> 01:44:06,600
father and his brothers and his
grandfather, they were all

1813
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:10,760
Masons, right?
And then and again, these, all

1814
01:44:10,760 --> 01:44:12,760
these martyrs, all these
prophets that were martyred,

1815
01:44:12,760 --> 01:44:16,120
they were all Masons and they
loved the fraternity and they

1816
01:44:16,120 --> 01:44:19,080
all gained value from it and
appreciated it.

1817
01:44:19,080 --> 01:44:21,440
And, and so this is one of the
reasons why I would, I would

1818
01:44:21,440 --> 01:44:26,120
like to see more Mormon Masons
and, and especially more Mormon

1819
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:31,680
fundamentalist Masons so that we
can dispel the rumor that

1820
01:44:31,680 --> 01:44:32,960
there's some kind of conflict
here.

1821
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:34,960
This isn't, it doesn't conflict
with religion.

1822
01:44:35,840 --> 01:44:40,080
It really exalts the mind of man
to find good men of all creeds

1823
01:44:40,080 --> 01:44:43,600
and opinions that you can talk
about deep adult subjects with,

1824
01:44:44,520 --> 01:44:47,320
about what it means to be a man,
about how to live your life

1825
01:44:48,120 --> 01:44:50,360
right.
And, and, and really, let's face

1826
01:44:50,360 --> 01:44:52,880
it too, in this modern society,
how else are you going to make

1827
01:44:52,880 --> 01:44:54,120
friends now that you're an
adult?

1828
01:44:55,560 --> 01:44:57,400
Right.
Masonry gives you this

1829
01:44:57,440 --> 01:45:02,120
opportunity to make friends with
a bunch of people who you will

1830
01:45:02,120 --> 01:45:06,480
otherwise never meet.
And and, and, and close friends,

1831
01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:10,160
you know, because you can meet
and talk about things that

1832
01:45:10,160 --> 01:45:12,800
matter.
Now, I think that maybe Masonry

1833
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:17,960
is a little bit more elitist
than some men would like.

1834
01:45:17,960 --> 01:45:19,960
Maybe not.
Maybe it isn't for everybody,

1835
01:45:20,920 --> 01:45:25,200
but for the type of people who
really care about history, who

1836
01:45:25,200 --> 01:45:30,000
really care about psychology and
ideas, like big ideas.

1837
01:45:30,320 --> 01:45:35,160
I know of no other place in
America today where you can go

1838
01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:39,640
and meet with lodge after lodge,
group after group of men who

1839
01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:43,000
think deeply about what it means
to be a man and about life and

1840
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:45,360
about how to support their
communities, than you can do in

1841
01:45:45,360 --> 01:45:46,680
Freemasonry.
There's just nothing that

1842
01:45:46,680 --> 01:45:50,240
compares with it.
Interesting.

1843
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:54,360
So is there anything else you
want to cover before I ask my

1844
01:45:54,360 --> 01:45:59,080
final question here?
Well, we've gone over my book,

1845
01:45:59,200 --> 01:46:02,880
my book recommendation for
Method Infinite, and a whole

1846
01:46:02,880 --> 01:46:06,000
bunch of random history, and
I've told you why I love being a

1847
01:46:06,000 --> 01:46:08,120
Mason.
So yeah, I'm probably ready.

1848
01:46:08,200 --> 01:46:12,920
Hit me up, OK.
We've talked about what what

1849
01:46:13,160 --> 01:46:17,720
Masonry's legacy is the world,
right?

1850
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:24,200
Certainly to America.
But what does it do for you

1851
01:46:24,280 --> 01:46:26,360
other than help you make
friends, right?

1852
01:46:26,360 --> 01:46:30,120
What is it that makes makes Ben
Shaffer wake up and go?

1853
01:46:31,120 --> 01:46:33,200
Yeah, I got to go attend some
more meetings.

1854
01:46:34,120 --> 01:46:36,880
Right, because I attend enough
meetings as it is, don't I?

1855
01:46:39,240 --> 01:46:41,240
You know, for one thing,
actually, I really look forward

1856
01:46:41,240 --> 01:46:43,640
to it.
It does do something for me that

1857
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:44,960
way.
It is the friendship.

1858
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:47,520
I'm going to start there, that
that might be the more basic

1859
01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:50,800
thing, but everybody needs to
get out of the house every once

1860
01:46:50,800 --> 01:46:53,040
in a while.
In part of my past, I was a

1861
01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:54,680
kindergarten teacher for a
couple of years.

1862
01:46:55,200 --> 01:47:00,800
And I remember being realizing
that it was frustrating living

1863
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:03,920
my life day after day, not
having adult conversations with

1864
01:47:03,920 --> 01:47:07,160
other adults.
It was a little bit madding to

1865
01:47:07,160 --> 01:47:13,720
speak kindergartner all the time
and I realized, you know what we

1866
01:47:13,720 --> 01:47:15,720
need?
You need other adults in your

1867
01:47:15,720 --> 01:47:17,640
life and you need to be able to
talk about things that matter.

1868
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:20,280
So yes, it one of the things
that's great for me.

1869
01:47:20,280 --> 01:47:23,800
Most lodges meet once a month.
My lodge meets about once a

1870
01:47:23,800 --> 01:47:26,160
week, so pretty much every
Wednesday night.

1871
01:47:26,160 --> 01:47:28,040
If you ever want to talk to
Benjamin, if you ever want to

1872
01:47:28,040 --> 01:47:31,560
schedule a podcast interview,
sorry, not Wednesday night, some

1873
01:47:31,560 --> 01:47:33,280
other night.
Why?

1874
01:47:33,280 --> 01:47:36,240
Because every Wednesday night I
know that I'm going to get to

1875
01:47:36,240 --> 01:47:39,720
hang out with a group of, of
intelligent, informed,

1876
01:47:40,640 --> 01:47:43,200
insightful men and talk about
something that matters.

1877
01:47:44,200 --> 01:47:46,400
And sure, sometimes we're just
shooting the breeze and

1878
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:49,560
sometimes it's more informal and
sometimes it's more of a service

1879
01:47:49,560 --> 01:47:54,840
thing or dinner, but I have a
chance to escape the monotony of

1880
01:47:54,840 --> 01:47:58,080
life once a week.
There's, there's value in that.

1881
01:47:58,160 --> 01:48:01,560
I think it's great.
But again, that is a more basic

1882
01:48:01,560 --> 01:48:04,200
reason.
The friendship, the society, the

1883
01:48:04,200 --> 01:48:07,720
break from the mundane that that
is for me every week.

1884
01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:11,440
I think one of the reasons why
I'm so fired up about it is

1885
01:48:11,440 --> 01:48:13,960
because I just love symbolic
experience.

1886
01:48:14,960 --> 01:48:20,160
To me, these things matter a lot
when you do something like a

1887
01:48:20,160 --> 01:48:25,320
Masonic ritual or an ordinance
in the gospel, or go on a father

1888
01:48:25,320 --> 01:48:31,520
sons camp out or anything that's
like outside that ordinary world

1889
01:48:31,840 --> 01:48:34,480
where you're entering a sacred
space or you're entering A

1890
01:48:34,480 --> 01:48:38,840
symbolic environment or you're
just getting out of town or

1891
01:48:38,840 --> 01:48:40,000
feeling the grass into your
feet.

1892
01:48:40,560 --> 01:48:42,320
There's something powerful about
that.

1893
01:48:43,000 --> 01:48:46,960
Most of the time we end up work,
home, sleep, eat right.

1894
01:48:47,320 --> 01:48:53,440
Masonry provides me this whole
other arena where I can look at

1895
01:48:53,440 --> 01:48:57,000
life in such a fresh way with
fresh eyes, with greater

1896
01:48:57,000 --> 01:49:01,880
insights and different ideas.
And I guess I'm kind of hooked

1897
01:49:01,880 --> 01:49:05,040
on that.
And so for me, some people, they

1898
01:49:05,200 --> 01:49:07,040
joined for Masonry, they think,
yeah, this really isn't doing

1899
01:49:07,040 --> 01:49:08,240
anything for me and they stop
coming.

1900
01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:10,960
The retention is actually a big
problem in Masonry.

1901
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:12,000
A lot of people don't stick
around.

1902
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:16,720
And so this is one of those
situations where you definitely

1903
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:17,960
get out of it what you put into
it.

1904
01:49:19,080 --> 01:49:21,960
And and so I would say that the
the better example is something

1905
01:49:21,960 --> 01:49:23,680
like that, like going on a camp
out.

1906
01:49:23,680 --> 01:49:25,880
There's a lot of people who go
on a camp out and they're

1907
01:49:25,880 --> 01:49:28,080
thinking, why the heck am I not
sleeping in my own bed?

1908
01:49:28,560 --> 01:49:31,520
I got to sleep on the ground.
What's what's fun about this,

1909
01:49:31,680 --> 01:49:33,720
right?
But those of us who know what it

1910
01:49:33,720 --> 01:49:37,880
means to get out there and just
live life and feel the wind on

1911
01:49:37,880 --> 01:49:42,200
your face, Masonry does
something like that for me in

1912
01:49:42,200 --> 01:49:46,720
that symbolic sphere, that
philosophical sphere where I get

1913
01:49:46,720 --> 01:49:52,040
out there and I have to grapple
with my life, with ideas, with

1914
01:49:52,800 --> 01:49:55,920
all kinds of things that
otherwise wouldn't come up

1915
01:49:56,680 --> 01:49:59,800
right.
And so I, I guess that there's a

1916
01:49:59,800 --> 01:50:04,880
quality to time that is
different when you're, when

1917
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:08,960
you're watching YouTube or
Netflix, it, it goes by in a

1918
01:50:08,960 --> 01:50:12,120
different pace somehow than when
you're in the mountains or when

1919
01:50:12,120 --> 01:50:15,960
you are in a church or when
you're doing something that's

1920
01:50:15,960 --> 01:50:18,360
outside that mundane, mundane
world.

1921
01:50:18,840 --> 01:50:22,920
And Masonry, because of its
symbology and it's, it's

1922
01:50:22,920 --> 01:50:26,680
ceremonial nature, it does that
every single time you go to

1923
01:50:26,680 --> 01:50:28,800
Masonic meeting.
There's what we call an opening

1924
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:32,600
and a closing ceremony and you
kind of step apart from the

1925
01:50:32,600 --> 01:50:36,400
world.
In fact, I want to give you guys

1926
01:50:36,400 --> 01:50:39,280
a little bit of a piece of the
Masonic ritual.

1927
01:50:39,280 --> 01:50:41,560
There's something called the
closing charge that we say right

1928
01:50:41,560 --> 01:50:44,600
at the end before we leave.
And as the pastmaster of my

1929
01:50:44,600 --> 01:50:47,880
lodge, traditionally it falls
upon me to say these goodbye

1930
01:50:47,880 --> 01:50:51,280
words to everyone when we leave
Lodge I.

1931
01:50:52,440 --> 01:50:54,040
And it really kind of embodies
that.

1932
01:50:54,040 --> 01:50:58,840
I say, Brethren, you are now to
quit the sacred retreat to

1933
01:50:58,840 --> 01:51:03,120
friendship and virtue, to mix
again with the world, but amid

1934
01:51:03,120 --> 01:51:07,680
its concerns and employments.
For forget not those sacred

1935
01:51:07,680 --> 01:51:10,960
lessons which you have heard so
frequently inculcated and

1936
01:51:10,960 --> 01:51:12,480
forcibly recommended in this
lodge.

1937
01:51:12,920 --> 01:51:16,040
Be diligent, temperate, prudent,
and discreet.

1938
01:51:16,760 --> 01:51:20,920
Remember that around this altar
you have vowed to aid and assist

1939
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:28,600
every Brother who shall need
your assistance, to remind him

1940
01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:31,640
in the most tender manner of his
of his failings, as well as to

1941
01:51:31,640 --> 01:51:33,760
vindicate his character whenever
wrongfully introduced.

1942
01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:39,240
Brethren, these principles are
to extend further, Do good unto

1943
01:51:39,240 --> 01:51:43,200
all, dwell in peace, and may the
God of love and peace delight to

1944
01:51:43,200 --> 01:51:46,400
dwell with and bless you.
Right.

1945
01:51:46,920 --> 01:51:48,840
And so we end our meeting with
these words.

1946
01:51:49,640 --> 01:51:55,560
And it sanctifies to some
extent, not in a priesthood way,

1947
01:51:55,560 --> 01:52:00,480
sure, but it sanctifies that
we're here for each other.

1948
01:52:00,880 --> 01:52:05,080
And that in those meetings, we
can talk about the stuff that

1949
01:52:05,080 --> 01:52:06,680
really matters.
The stuff we might not be able

1950
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:08,440
to say in front of our wives,
the stuff we might not be

1951
01:52:08,440 --> 01:52:11,080
willing to say in front of the
world, the stuff that we might

1952
01:52:11,080 --> 01:52:13,800
not be able to talk about on a
podcast, even.

1953
01:52:14,720 --> 01:52:17,640
But the difficult things of our
lives, the difficult things of

1954
01:52:17,640 --> 01:52:21,040
our hearts and encourage one
another, you know, to be better

1955
01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:24,920
men through it all.
And so, yeah, I think that

1956
01:52:24,920 --> 01:52:28,000
there's an infinite supply of
usefulness to that in my life,

1957
01:52:28,000 --> 01:52:31,000
and I want to be part of it.
So nobody has to make me.

1958
01:52:31,000 --> 01:52:32,560
I don't have to be like another
meeting.

1959
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:35,960
I think to myself, hey, I get to
go to the thing I like to do.

1960
01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:40,440
Nice.
And I know it's the same for

1961
01:52:40,440 --> 01:52:41,880
everybody, but for me, I want to
do it.

1962
01:52:43,400 --> 01:52:44,920
No, I get it.
I get it.

1963
01:52:45,360 --> 01:52:48,360
Well, dude, that was good stuff.
I appreciate you coming on and

1964
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:51,600
talking about this, kind of
giving us an inside peek.

1965
01:52:51,600 --> 01:52:53,200
I think that was hugely
important.

1966
01:52:53,200 --> 01:52:57,800
And I just felt like it was a
subject that as Mormons we get

1967
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:01,360
beat up with it, right?
And it's important.

1968
01:53:01,640 --> 01:53:03,560
It's not enough just to defend
it.

1969
01:53:03,680 --> 01:53:07,240
You do have to have somewhat of
an understanding of it, I think,

1970
01:53:07,240 --> 01:53:12,720
in order to come to, to be able
to defend your faith when it

1971
01:53:12,720 --> 01:53:15,400
comes to Masonry, because like
it or not, that's one of the

1972
01:53:15,400 --> 01:53:17,680
things we do get beat up with.
That's right.

1973
01:53:17,760 --> 01:53:20,360
And, and so you can say with
confidence if you've listened

1974
01:53:20,360 --> 01:53:24,520
this far into this thing that
you know a Mason and that he

1975
01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:28,120
told and that he told you and
explained to you that what

1976
01:53:28,120 --> 01:53:30,160
they're saying is a lie.
Right.

1977
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:33,320
There's nothing, there's nothing
dark, evil or mean about

1978
01:53:33,320 --> 01:53:35,520
Masonry.
There's no, there's nothing to

1979
01:53:35,520 --> 01:53:38,440
be ashamed of there.
It's not a it's not a bad black

1980
01:53:38,440 --> 01:53:40,920
mark on this character of Joseph
Smith that he was a Freemason

1981
01:53:43,760 --> 01:53:47,000
and, and most of what they're
saying against Mormonism and

1982
01:53:47,000 --> 01:53:50,280
against Masonry, it's it's lies,
most of it.

1983
01:53:51,240 --> 01:53:53,280
Right and.
If there's some threat of truth,

1984
01:53:53,280 --> 01:53:57,000
it's been horrifically
distorted, you know?

1985
01:53:57,200 --> 01:54:00,000
Absolutely.
Well dude, that was good stuff.

1986
01:54:00,000 --> 01:54:03,040
I appreciate it as always.
And dude, I look forward to our

1987
01:54:03,040 --> 01:54:06,320
next one, whenever that is.
All right, whatever topic comes

1988
01:54:06,320 --> 01:54:10,080
up that I actually know about,
call on me and I'll do my best.

1989
01:54:11,120 --> 01:54:12,720
Awesome, Ben.
Thanks so much.

1990
01:54:12,720 --> 01:54:15,040
Hang out for 5 minutes.
Bye everybody.

1991
01:54:46,640 --> 01:54:49,400
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.