Aug. 2, 2025

Episode #195: The Doctrinal Canary In The Cole Mine W/Michael Ness

Show Notes
Transcript

In the old days of coal mining one of the common practices was to bring a canary down in the mine. They did this because canaries are very sensitive to gases like methane. So if the canaries became sick or died the miners would know it was unsafe and leave, so it was a way for predicting dire consequences. Therefore the term "canary in the coal mine" refers to an indicator which proceeds disaster. Today Michael Ness joins me as we look at certain groups which have distanced themselves from the Adam-God Doctrine and where they stand now.

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The.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Well, I'm a big guy.

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Just glad to be here.
Dude, I love, I love these

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conversations we have together.
I always end up learning

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something.
This one is kind of unique,

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right?
And I go back to that and I've

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quoted on the podcast several
times, but I think it's worth

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repeating, especially here in
the in the context of of the

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discussion we're going to have,
which is every heresy begins

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with a misconception about who
God is.

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Sure.
OK.

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And that's where it starts
always.

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And so today we're going to talk
about the Adam God Doctrine and

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more specifically about groups
that ended up rejecting it and

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what happened to those groups.
Because there does seem to be a

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pattern, right?
I won't say it repeats 100% of

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the time, but boy, a good
majority of them seem to to

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start to venture out from those
waters that were revealed by

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Joseph and things quickly go off
the rails.

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Sure.
No, Brigham Young when he, he

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had actually been teaching it in
a very subtle fashion for years.

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But the famous statement is, you
know, April 9th, 1852, here you

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will have into severe earth Jew,
Gentile, St. and Sinner.

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Our father Adam Michael came to
the Garden of Eden with a

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celestial body and one of his
wives, right?

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And he says that this doctrine
will prove the salvation or

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damnation of all we hear right.
Right.

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That's that's a bold statement,
a very bold statement.

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And there's other times where he
talks later or like if 18601865

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or so, the public rhetoric is,
do I care that the Latter Day

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Saints believe what I said about
Father Adam?

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No.
You know, and probably because,

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you know, and we know he got
pushed back from some people

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like Orson Pratt.
And so maybe he wanted to walk

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back that strong stance from the
pulpit.

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But I don't think he's wrong.
No.

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Yeah.
And also, he can't change

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anyone's mind, you know, right?
So how much can he care?

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I did.
He did his job.

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Right right now that's that's a
good point and to back up what

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Brigham says, the New Testament
is pretty clear on this, right?

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It's in John where he says you
know this is life eternal to

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know the the true and living God
and Jesus Christ whom he.

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Sent.
He always quoted that too.

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Did he really?
Brigham whenever a lot of the

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time when you get went into an
Adam God discourse he would use

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that scripture.
And see, that's not just

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Brigham, that's the Savior
himself, I believe.

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Well, it is, right?
That's John 17, verse 3, right?

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One through three.
Yeah.

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And so he's the Savior's drawing
the line here.

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This knowledge about who God is,
my Father, your Father.

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This is of supreme importance.
And the more I go along, the

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more I think it's true.
And and as you and I came up

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with this idea to have this
conversation about groups who've

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disavowed it and what happened
to them, it gets pretty stark.

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It does.
Before we get into the more

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recent history, I'll have to
like to backtrack for sure to

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down the road a bit.
The first Adam Theistic

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statement I'm aware of comes in
June of 1835.

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OK, this is 4 years before one
of the more famous discourses

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Joseph Smith ever gave on Adam,
which is the one we're usually

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aware of.
It's 1839 before August 9th and

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he talks about how Adam holds
the keys of the universe, you

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know, and he reveals the
ordinances.

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You know, you're familiar with
that.

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You call it any most of our
people, especially if you've

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read the teachings of the
Prophet Joseph Smith.

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It's around page 157 to 161.
It's that sermon.

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So it's four years predating
that.

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And it was published.
So it's not a sermon.

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It's a it's a, it's a little
excerpt from an article written

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by WW Phelps in the Messenger
and Advocate, I believe.

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Let me double check that real
quick.

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Yeah, Messenger and Advocate.
And so for those who don't know,

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WW Phelps was considered the
ghost writer for Joseph Smith

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for many years.
You know, just like Oliver

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Calgary would have been the
mouthpiece, right?

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And Sidney rigged and right, But
but Phelps was the the writer,

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right?
So he's the one that's getting

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the the he's the sounding board
for all Joseph's ideas early on,

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right.
And he writes to in an editorial

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in a response to someone who has
submitted a letter to the

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newspaper, he he writes back
saying, I am truly glad that you

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have mentioned Michael, the
Prince who I understand is our

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great Father Adam.
New light is occasionally

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bursting into our minds of the
sacred Scriptures, for which I

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am truly thankful.
We shall by and by learn that we

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were with God in another world
before the foundation of the

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world and had our agency that we
came into this world and have

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our agency in order that we may
prepare ourselves for a Kingdom

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of glory, become archangels,
even the sons of God, where the

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man is neither without the woman
nor the woman without the man in

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the Lord.
A consummation of glory and

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happiness and perfection.
So greatly to be wished that I

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would not miss of it for the
fame of 10 worlds.

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Wow.
And so that's really

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interesting.
It's obviously not saying guys

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Adam is God, but what it is
saying is we get to become

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archangels, right?
And that an Archangel in his

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definition is the sons of God,
where neither the man is without

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the woman nor the woman is
without the man.

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That is what smart people with
degrees would call a hierogamous

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marriage.
So not not polygamous,

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hierogamous, right, and not
hypergamous.

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Right.
I know hierogamous is the sacred

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marriage.
Gotcha.

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OK.
And all the ancient cultures

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believed, you know, when you go
back to like ancient Greece,

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ancient Egypt, there were
certain ceremonial rites and

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things that would go on where
the king and the queen would

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personify at the deities.
And it was like celebrating the

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New Year, for example.
And so the earth is.

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The.
Earth.

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The earth is symbolically being
renewed.

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It's after the fall and winter
and spring is is there and the

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earth is being renewed.
So they have a ritual

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reenactment of the gods
fighting, dying.

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It's like Ragnarok with right,
the worse, like the twilight of

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the gods.
But then after the twilight of

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the gods, there's the
resurrection and creation,

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right?
And that culminates in a sacred

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marriage between the father God
and the mother God.

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Gotcha, right.
And the king and the queen or

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the OR the priests and
priestesses, they represent the

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the sacred right and initiates
also played those roles.

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So the initiates played it at
the same time the king and

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queen, you know, going through
it.

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Things like that existed, so I'm
not sure if it was always that

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way at all at once, but yes,
interest.

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And so we have an allusion to a
sacred marriage ceremony type

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format years before the Nabu
temple and before sealing

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practices are being performed
among the Saints.

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And it's tied directly to being
an Archangel, which Adam is.

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Right, right, because what?
What was the definition of

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Archangel according?
To the restoration so according

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to this, you know this isn't in
the standard works or anything,

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but it's a it's a married man at
this point.

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OK, right.
You know this definition says

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that an Archangel is a married
man.

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I don't know if there's a strong
correlated definition for

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Archangel.
Besides, if you go into the

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roots arc means head right rule
and Allred said something along

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the lines of he's an Archangel
because he bridges the celestial

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worlds and the mortal worlds.
Gotcha, you know, and brings

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them together, transverses them
too, which is interesting.

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And we can come back to a point
that might be tangential to that

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later inner.
But I think that's a profound

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statement because it's years
before all the priesthood stuff

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on Adam, and it's definitely
years before sacred marriages

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ceremonies are revealed in
novel.

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That was 1835. 1835 so they're
subtler things too, because it's

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before the foundation of the
world and even mentions that

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this glory is something I
wouldn't miss for 10 worlds.

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So it's plurality of worlds is
in the context of this, of this

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whole thing too.
That shows that Joseph's

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thinking about these things and
probably getting some sort of

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revelation totally a lot sooner
than maybe any of us understand,

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right?
I think there's a narrative out

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there that that things look
remarkably Christian, right?

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With with some additional
scripture during Kirtland and

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then all of a sudden there's
just an explosion in Nauvoo of

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things that would be uniquely
Mormon.

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But these sorts of things are
interesting because it

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definitely shows the a
trajectory, right, that that

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he's, he's at least thinking
about praying about these things

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a lot sooner than any of us
know.

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Could be.
I think so.

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Or he knew more, you know, than
he was letting on.

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Yeah.
But then again, records aren't

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nearly as good in that era.
You know, especially you have

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the Saints are kind of divided.
There's a lot of people in

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Missouri at the time that
Joseph's in Kirtland and for

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example, Parley P Pratt was
running a school of the profits

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in Independence before they were
kicked out.

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We have 0 record of anything.
That went on.

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That I'm aware of.
It would have been nice to have

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that.
I bet you there were some really

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cool Adam on Diamond stuff mixed
up in that.

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So that's super interesting that
you bring that up because yeah,

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Joseph's talking about Adam on
Diamond at least is I don't know

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when the first revelation on it
in the DNC was.

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It's like Section 116 where it's
revealed where it is, but he

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when you go into the Kirtland
era and Joseph Smith is working

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on the book of Abraham and the
Egyptian alphabet and grammar

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manuscripts, Adam on Diamond's
in it.

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And so that's that's also around
1835.

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So that's interesting. 1816
about 116 excuse me, 116 or 117

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I believe is the the section
where Adam on Diamond is

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revealed to be Spring Hill,
Missouri. 1838 May of 1838.

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So according to the Egyptian
Alpha and Grammar book,

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depending on when that was dated
to, I think he started work on

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it in 35.
It's also predating that

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revelation.
Holy cow had him on Diana being

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an important place, right?
Yeah, so he's really.

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It's just not been revealed
where it was yet.

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So he's really thinking about
these things and he's getting

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00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,040
more information than he's
willing to pass on at that time.

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Interesting.
Not are all the people who

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apostatized in those days just
left and right?

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They're the ones that heard it,
you know, I don't know.

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Right.
Well, that's a possibility too,

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right?
I mean, people do tend to look

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at Joseph a lot and call him a
blasphemer and and those sorts

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00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,600
of things because of the
revelations that he gets.

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So I didn't surprise, wouldn't
surprise me in the least.

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So, but when we do get to
Nauvoo, we have at least one

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statement to the Council of 50
where Joseph says that he gives

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00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,640
a definition for the word
almond, which we find in Adam on

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Dialman.
And he says almond is the first

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00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,800
man and almond, Christ is the
first man's son.

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00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,680
Well, there's only one person
ever in Scriptures who's called

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the first man, and it's the
first man, Adam.

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00:12:57,560 --> 00:12:59,040
Well, and here's the thing,
right?

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00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:03,440
And and this gets interesting
and, and has strong ties and

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implications to a certain
portion of the temple ceremony,

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right?
Because there's no way, right?

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00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,000
So if, if and, and correct me if
I'm wrong here, almond means

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00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,400
first man.
That's what Joseph said in 1844.

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00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:26,520
OK and then son Almond is the
first man's first born son.

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So he said so there's a
revelation in 1830 where he says

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00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,200
almond means is the name of God
in the pure language.

223
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,200
Son Almond is the name of Christ
in the pure language.

224
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:39,600
And then in the 1844 discourse,
he doesn't say son Almond.

225
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,720
He says Almond.
Christ is the first man's son.

226
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,320
OK, the first man's son?
Not necessarily.

227
00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:46,080
Not Son Almond.
Not that I don't think there's a

228
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:47,920
difference there.
He just uses a different name

229
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,160
for Christ.
Son Almond versus almond.

230
00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,320
Christ is the he said is the
first man's son, but he said Son

231
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,280
Almond was Jesus Christ.
So it doesn't necessarily denote

232
00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,720
birth order of that son.
I don't recall it saying that.

233
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,000
OK.
All right.

234
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,120
But either it's saying son,
Almond is Jesus Christ in the

235
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,480
pure Adamic language, or Almond
Christ.

236
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,760
You know how many Christs are
there?

237
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,560
Is the first man's son?
Right.

238
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,320
I don't think it said is the
only begotten son, but it's the

239
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:20,440
first Son.
And so, yeah, I think that's,

240
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,680
you know, I don't know Adamic so
and I don't know what Joseph was

241
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,480
trying to well.
You won't push up.

242
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,720
On I would, if I could, I would
be, but it is interesting, you

243
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,840
know, on this and we've talked
about this a little bit in our

244
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:40,760
when we did our Old Testament
classes, the, the name almond

245
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:48,880
seems to have linguistic cousins
in our, in things we know about

246
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,960
like in the Egyptian pantheon,
we have almond raw, right, you

247
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,640
know, but like even before that
that that was really two gods

248
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,360
combined.
It was almond other than raw,

249
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:05,760
but almond is almond, you know,
other than what's the other one?

250
00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:10,800
Ammon is like the Greek form of
al moon God.

251
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,840
And so it's really funny when
Ammon, son of King Moziah, goes

252
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,960
to minister of the Lamanites and
he's chopping off a bunch of

253
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,920
arms and King Lamoni gets really
freaked out because he's like,

254
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,520
are you the great spirit?
Because that there might have

255
00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,960
been something left in their
language where he knew now that

256
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,720
like you have a very ominous
name and you're acting in a way

257
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,280
that like a no man can act.
Right.

258
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,520
OK, so then just not the name,
but not just his actions, but

259
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,600
the name is what's?
Might have been and we're not we

260
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,520
don't pick up on that, but that
might have been part of King

261
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,240
Lemoni's calculus.
There mentally interest was, you

262
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,600
know, because he and he admits
to actually, maybe it maybe it's

263
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,200
King Lemoni's father admits to
Aaron.

264
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,720
He's like, I don't know what God
is, you know, but I believe in a

265
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,360
great spirit.
So like they've degenerated at a

266
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,360
certain level, but I really
think, especially considering

267
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,400
that Lehigh knew Egyptian and
some of that have been carried

268
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,400
over to that family.
I I can't not, you know, think

269
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,720
that it's reasonable that the
Lamanites would have some sort

270
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:18,480
of understanding, even if it's
been bastardized and degenerate

271
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,080
like that, that name would mean
something to them, right.

272
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,520
And so you got a guy with the
name of the Great Spirit or a

273
00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,000
name for the Great Spirit or
some other deity that's hacking

274
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:33,640
people's arms off and seems like
he's a God in human form that's

275
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:34,480
manifest.
Yeah, right.

276
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,720
And so it's really funny,
actually.

277
00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,400
Yeah, 'cause he, he seems a
little freaked out, right?

278
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,880
I mean, King Lamona, he's like,
OK, there's this dude out there

279
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,240
that's got the name of God, of
God, and he's out here lopping

280
00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,120
off arms like nobody's business.
Yeah.

281
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,120
And yeah, he's like, no, I'm
not, I'm not, you know, I'm just

282
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,720
a mortal man.
But it's interesting, right?

283
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:04,319
It's but.
And so you have those linguistic

284
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:06,000
connections.
I was trying to think if there's

285
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,960
another one might not be super
important to get into.

286
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,680
But even Amun RA in the Egyptian
endowment that he, you know, the

287
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,319
work that he Nipley did is
fairly Adam theistic, at least

288
00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:21,280
the parallels he draws from it.
And he he writes about this in

289
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:29,480
his book, the the message of the
the Joseph Smith papyri in the

290
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,200
message of the the Egyptian
endowment, I think is what it's

291
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,840
called right?
And he talks about how the

292
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:43,120
Council of the Gods decided to
go create the earth and they one

293
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:46,000
of them volunteers to go and his
name is Atom.

294
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:52,080
You know, ATUM which other
scholars, some guy named

295
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,240
Lefevre, actually some French
guy was like, well, there's

296
00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,080
really no phylological reason
why we shouldn't consider Adam

297
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,840
and Atom to be the same person.
You know, phylology being like

298
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,280
the study of languages because
you know, TS and DS sound alike.

299
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,560
You know, if you've ever had
kids, you know, my son, my son

300
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,160
does this all the time.
You know, TS and DS get mixed up

301
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,800
and you know, especially
considering English isn't a

302
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,800
phonetic language.
So each letter doesn't have a

303
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:23,120
like a strict 1 sound, you know,
and A's and OS make similar

304
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:28,280
sound and A's and E's.
And so you have Atom volunteers

305
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:36,480
to go to down to the earth.
And so RA and Pata and Atom go

306
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:44,560
and Pata forms a body out of the
clay of the earth, right out of

307
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:48,120
the out of the red Egyptian
desert, and breathes the breath

308
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:51,000
of life.
And that's actually Atom, the

309
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,320
God that he's breathing life
into.

310
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:59,040
But he also talks about how in
the creation, they ascend and

311
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,800
descend multiple times and that
and that the sun is a figure

312
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,960
that illustrates this because
they're all really the same God,

313
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:13,600
right?
And so the setting sun and that

314
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,320
we've all seen this when the
sunsets to a certain level at

315
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,200
certain times of the year for
and under certain conditions of

316
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,880
weather, the sun becomes red,
right?

317
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:23,960
Like a deep red.
Right.

318
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,440
As it's getting close to
setting, that's the God coming

319
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:32,200
down to the earth and yeah,
immortal, yeah, partaking of the

320
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,920
blood.
Red me the red sunset being a

321
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,680
symbolic.
Of the blood and that sort of

322
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:40,360
thing.
And then and then it dies when

323
00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,960
it goes around the earth and
it's night time and then it

324
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:51,840
rises back into the heavens And
at the at its height, you know,

325
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,120
at the highest and when it's
shining the brightest, that's

326
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,680
raw.
It is like it's, it's, it's

327
00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,320
gained, it's regained its glory
after being on right.

328
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,680
But he, he really also likens it
to returning and reporting.

329
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:09,120
Interesting, you know, going
down and reporting the it's the

330
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,760
gods going down to the earth
working and then going back to

331
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:13,760
the divine council and reporting
what they've been doing.

332
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,560
Holy cow.
You see, it's so it goes back so

333
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,240
far, right?
I mean, and then define this on

334
00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:28,720
the frontier of America in the
1830s is craziness.

335
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:36,600
And so also in in your Eastern
civilizations, you have a phrase

336
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:42,000
that's equated to the royal
figures, you know, the kings of

337
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,440
those nations.
They're they are actually called

338
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:50,680
the image and the likeness of
God, and they are worshipped as

339
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,720
if they were God on earth.
Well, you go to the Genesis

340
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,440
account and when the gods make
Adam, what do they say?

341
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,360
Let us go make a man after our
image in our.

342
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:08,560
Lives, and if I'm not mistaken
there's some from some of our

343
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,480
other conversations.
There's some stuff in the

344
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,240
Apocrypha that talks about the
reason Satan was.

345
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,160
Cast out was because he refused
to worship out worship Adam.

346
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,160
That's true.
A lot of the early Christian

347
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,320
apocrypha had to do with that.
Interesting.

348
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,240
And Islam, it's in the Quran
interesting.

349
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,480
Which again.
Puts so much weight on Michael,

350
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,600
you know, slash Adam for our
purposes here, that he's not

351
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,200
just simply a figure that you
have to tell the story of.

352
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,480
There's something else going on
with Adam.

353
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:48,080
So I would, I called up Jacob
Adrian earlier to ask him a few

354
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,560
questions about the other groups
that did Temple stuff.

355
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,640
You know, you know, Joseph Smith
dies and you got the Cutler

356
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,000
rights, you got the people who
followed Lyman White, you had

357
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,840
William Smith, you had James J
Strang.

358
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,840
Like they all had prospective
Temple projects.

359
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:08,200
And he told me that we think
that the lecture at the Veil was

360
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,720
Brigham's thing, but there's
evidence that Joseph Smith had a

361
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,080
lecture at the veil.
And what Joseph, what Brigham

362
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,360
said about Joseph Smith's
lecture at the veil was along

363
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:28,800
the lines of Joseph taught that
God made man out of the dust of

364
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,320
the earth just the same way that
we make our children out of the

365
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,240
dust of the earth.
Interesting.

366
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,440
So and so you, what is that that
you have?

367
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,680
You have that's procreation.
It's procreation and Moses

368
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,080
chapter 6 verse 59 says the same
thing where it says out of dust,

369
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:51,880
I I, I created and made a living
soul, which was out of how did I

370
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,640
was looking at this was this is
huge to me.

371
00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:59,600
What was it in Moses?
It's Moses 6 verse 59.

372
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:01,880
I want to get that one right
without paraphrasing it.

373
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,440
So in as much as ye were born
into the world by water and

374
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,320
blood and spirit, which I made,
and so became of dust a living

375
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,920
soul, so he's saying you were
born out of water, blood in the

376
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:35,240
spirit which is, and he which he
defines as being made of dust.

377
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:41,560
Interesting.
So it's.

378
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,480
He's telling you right so right
there about his about out of

379
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,400
about all of our divine.
Parentage.

380
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,120
So, yeah, you're born into the
world through what?

381
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,400
The water of the womb, right?
That's the water.

382
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,960
Blood.
Yeah, obviously it's, it's in

383
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,320
you, you know, and the Spirit
which God puts into you, right.

384
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:06,000
Interesting.
You know, people have often

385
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,440
asked the question, if Adam, God
is so important, why isn't it

386
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:15,600
more pronounced in, in the, in
the, in the Canon of Scripture

387
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,640
there?
My push back to that is always,

388
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,840
well, these are the mysteries,
right?

389
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,760
The same books that advanced
scholars are going to be using

390
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,360
are the same ones that the guy
who's just learning about Jesus

391
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:36,200
is going to be using, right?
It doesn't make sense that these

392
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,600
would be popping forward.
With that kind of clarity,

393
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,920
right, because you risk hurting
somebody before they ever get

394
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,160
going.
Well, a lot of the scriptures

395
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,920
are written that way too.
And it's not necessarily to

396
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,960
obscure Adam God.
It's to obscure a lot of things

397
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,320
Christ taught in parables and a
lot of the Isaiah taught in, you

398
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,680
know, he was told to his
ministry would be super

399
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,440
difficult because he was going
to have to preach things in a

400
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,520
way that people couldn't see and
understand.

401
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,800
And he was and he asks the Lord
how long and he says till the

402
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,360
cities be wasted without
inhabitant, right.

403
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,560
You know, and you're just going
to preach them and they're not

404
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,600
going to get it Interesting.
They're not going to be able to

405
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:19,760
hear it.
They're not going to be able to

406
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:24,000
see it.
So yeah, the scriptures are

407
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:29,520
written in a way to teach you
something.

408
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,640
Wherever you were at.
Wherever, thank you, wherever

409
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,840
you're at.
And there's a, there's a cool

410
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,600
little anecdote too, where, you
know, apocryphal type stuff,

411
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,600
where in the Gospel of Mark, you
know, there's, there's allusions

412
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,440
to something called the secret
Gospel of Mark.

413
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,360
And the way the story goes is,
you know, Mark the evangelist.

414
00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:55,720
You know, he was Peter's scribe.
And when Peter died in Rome,

415
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,120
Mark took Peter's notes and his
own notes and he made two works

416
00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:02,560
with it.
And he made the Gospel of Mark

417
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,640
that we have.
And he made a what they call a

418
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,000
secret Gospel of Mark, which
was, which was for those who

419
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:17,280
have become perfected.
And so around the 2nd century,

420
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,800
you have people who, and they
fascinate me and I love and hate

421
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,240
the Gnostics.
But the claim to the Gnostics

422
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,920
were that, oh, we know the
things that the apostles knew

423
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,840
that they didn't teach, and
therefore we'll give them to

424
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,360
you.
And so they were like, we have

425
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:41,320
the secret gospel of Mark.
And so you have 1 Bishop writing

426
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:46,120
to one of the leaders of the
church in Alexandria.

427
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,400
And he's, he asks, you know, is
the secret gospel of Mark that

428
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,360
they're talking about real?
And the, the actually it's not,

429
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,160
it's he's not writing a, a guy
in Alexander.

430
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:05,640
He's writing Clement for Rome.
And Clement tells them, yes, it

431
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,960
is real.
And the true version is under

432
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:14,680
lock and key in Alexandria.
And the, what they have quoted,

433
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,000
they have added to it and
changed it.

434
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,720
But I will quote to and we have
this letter by the way.

435
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,480
Wow, we have the letter.
So we have the letter that

436
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,360
where, where.
Clement acknowledges that

437
00:27:27,360 --> 00:27:29,560
there's a secret gospel, and he
says that they've changed it.

438
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,560
Let me quote to you 2 passages
as it actually reads.

439
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,440
And in one of them it gives the
Lazarus story, which I mean,

440
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,600
there's slight details changing,
but that's only found in the

441
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,720
Gospel of John, right?
So, Mark, that we have doesn't

442
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,960
talk about Lazarus at all.
And so this account doesn't name

443
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,000
Lazarus, but it says that Jesus
went down to Bethany and that

444
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,560
the brother of one of the women
there had died, and that Christ

445
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,720
went and rose him from the dead.
But then that night Christ took

446
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:06,160
Lazarus, although Lazarus isn't
named, but he takes this man

447
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:11,560
into an upper room and dresses
him in linen.

448
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,720
And they spend all night
discussing the mysteries.

449
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:24,920
That sounds oddly familiar for
upper room.

450
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,600
Discussing the mysteries.
Yeah.

451
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,640
And there's one other that was
one of the two passages that

452
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,240
climbed quotes back to this guy.
I don't recall what the other

453
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,920
one was off top.
Interesting.

454
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:37,480
And so, yeah, there's a there's
things that we just don't know,

455
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,080
you know, in in the Book of
Mormon, you know, how often was

456
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,560
it that Nephi says, I was about
to write more, but the spirit

457
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,000
constraints.
Yeah.

458
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:50,120
Second Nephi 32 or 33, whatever,
and then Moroni or Mormon,

459
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,400
whoever the narrator is around.
Third Nephi, Mormon, he said I

460
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,320
was about to write more, but the
Christ said not to.

461
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,080
For if they believe these
things, they will believe the

462
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,760
greater things also.
And what was Christ doing?

463
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,360
He was at the temple.
I was about to write more, but

464
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,560
he said if they will believe,
you know, I will, I will test

465
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,000
the faith of my people.
If they believe these things

466
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,080
that you write, they'll believe
the greater things also.

467
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:20,240
So that's in a temple context.
In fact, that's an but hold on

468
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:24,080
one second before you go there.
That's an interesting qualifier.

469
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,560
If they will believe these
things, they will then believe

470
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:35,720
the greater the greater thing.
The implications of that are

471
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:36,600
huge, right?
Yeah.

472
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,440
Saying you don't believe the
Book of Mormon if you don't

473
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,200
believe in the greater things.
Right.

474
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,640
Who?
That's fascinating, right?

475
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,320
And, and I suppose this is where
we should talk about this a

476
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,520
little bit, right?
And I think this is an important

477
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:55,400
distinction to make, right?
This is the Canon of scripture,

478
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:56,400
OK?
OK.

479
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,760
What is a Canon?
A Canon?

480
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,320
Is the collection OK now?
We read in the Doctrine and

481
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,120
Covenants that it gives a
definition.

482
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,600
What is scripture?
According to Doctrine and

483
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,280
Covenants, all the the prophets
for the servants of the Lord

484
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:12,960
speak as moved upon by the Holy
Ghost.

485
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,720
K So would something like
teachings of the Prophet Joseph

486
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,160
Smith be considered Canon?
I'm not Canon, but scripture.

487
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,840
I would consider it scripture.
K but it's not canonized.

488
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,480
It's not canonized.
So while it's not in the Canon,

489
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,600
it's still scripture.
My contention for these deeper

490
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,560
mystery things is that you can
definitely find allusions to

491
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,600
them here, right?
More specifically in the

492
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,480
Doctrine and Covenants.
My contention has been for a

493
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,600
while now.
And this isn't to negate the Old

494
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,520
Testament, New Testament, or
Brick of Mormon.

495
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,360
That's not what I'm doing.
But they are salvatic texts.

496
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,480
They deal with salvation.
It's not.

497
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,480
There is some allusions to
exaltation, but it doesn't come

498
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,080
right out and say it like it
does in the Doctrine and

499
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,480
Covenants.
Now, to get to the mysteries in

500
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,720
the Restoration, I think you
have to pay attention to

501
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:14,520
Joseph's sermons, all of them,
especially the Nabu period,

502
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,360
because there he's going to
start illuminating, I think,

503
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,000
some of these mysteries, or at
least tipping his hand that

504
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,840
there's more there.
So I want to talk about the word

505
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,920
mysteries too.
People get really bent out of

506
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,760
chase.
I just had a, my parents just

507
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,200
came out to visit a little bit
ago, for example.

508
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,480
And I don't know exactly how we
got into it, but my sister or

509
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,200
mother or someone said something
along the lines of, oh, we don't

510
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,800
need to know the mysteries.
And I said, because the

511
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,040
definition generally is oh,
secret things or things that we

512
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,840
can't really figure out, so why
bother?

513
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,480
That's not what mysteries are.
No.

514
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,280
And I I said hold on, we need to
back up and redefine what that

515
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:55,880
word.
Did you educate them?

516
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,160
I tried to and my my dad had a
light bulb moment because he

517
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,480
understands certain he's read
other things that kind of made

518
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,080
this work.
And I said the mysteries are the

519
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,280
temple rites and then it all fit
because there's something else.

520
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,920
Historically, have you ever
heard of the Mithraic mysteries?

521
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,000
No.
OK so Mithra was a Persian God

522
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:25,200
and a like a Hindu Indo Aryan
God as well.

523
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,840
Explain.
That term Indo Aryan.

524
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:33,520
So that's like the crossover
between India and Iran, right,

525
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,400
That culture, but it comes West
and it eventually becomes pretty

526
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,800
popular in Rome.
OK, and very popular in Rome.

527
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,080
And Mithras is the Roman
version.

528
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:55,200
And it was a secret esoteric
order, OK, The soldiers, the

529
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,120
legionaries, OK.
And you didn't have to be

530
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,400
initiated to, you know, if you
were in the legions.

531
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,920
But it it existed, in fact, it
got all the way to Britain.

532
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,600
There is Mithraeum, which are
Mithraeum temples.

533
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,560
Yeah, and Mithraic temples were
operating long after Rome

534
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,440
abandoned Britain.
Well, I, I guess I, that kind of

535
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,600
makes sense, right?
Because if it's predominantly

536
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,960
the centurions or the soldiers
who are picking this up, they

537
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,760
get dispatched everywhere,
right?

538
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,280
So right, they're going that's
going to spread wherever Rome

539
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:29,120
does.
Right.

540
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,520
And there's a lot of interesting
things that are similar between

541
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,880
Christ and Mithras.
There's a miraculous birth.

542
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,920
Is Mithras the bull?
Mithras is the God that slays

543
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,240
the bull.
OK, thank you.

544
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:41,760
I knew there was a connection
there.

545
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,280
Something.
And that's a fascinating topic.

546
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,680
We will do another podcast on by
the way or, or where that will

547
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,360
play in That's the Astro
theology.

548
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,960
Oh.
OK, which will be a few one down

549
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,040
the road if I ever get my my act
together.

550
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,640
So Mithras is born of a miracle,
right?

551
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,520
You know, and it's, it's
depicted different ways

552
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,840
depending on the sources.
And he's restoring cosmic order

553
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:14,880
by slaying the bull, which
represents chaotic forces.

554
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:15,840
Right.
Right.

555
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,560
And the blood from the bull
rejuvenates the the ground.

556
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,000
So it's like that fertility.
Kind of, right?

557
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,000
Right.
The newness of life being

558
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,400
renewed, but the soldiers would
go through.

559
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,400
I mean, that's what this they
were called the those rites

560
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,960
we're called Mithraic mysteries.
My dad knows a few things about

561
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,719
that because of other books that
we both read.

562
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,159
And so when I said no, the
mysteries are the temple, it

563
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,960
made sense because he's read
things about Roman legionaries

564
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:50,400
being initiated through, you
know, the temple, you know the

565
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,719
temple of Roman legionaries, you
know this cult.

566
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,800
Because he had that background,
the idea.

567
00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:00,080
And he understood, oh, Mithraic
mysteries, and we have our own

568
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,760
mysteries.
The mystery is progressing

569
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,240
towards godhood because you
personify the deity going

570
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:09,000
through these things.
What do we do when we go through

571
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,880
the temple?
We personify Adam and Eve,

572
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,040
right?
Right.

573
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:17,000
And the the 7th degree of the
Mithraic mysteries, like the

574
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:24,720
highest one is simply called
Father Potter in Latin, right?

575
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,600
Right.
And that's it.

576
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:31,680
That's the highest degree.
You know, it's it's you talked

577
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,480
about and you talked about this
with the kings as well in the

578
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,080
representation, the initiates
putting themselves in the place

579
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,760
of the king and the queen or
Adam and Eve.

580
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:53,680
That holds so much significance
because if we look at how

581
00:35:54,880 --> 00:36:00,960
traditional Judaism practices
things like Passover meal, you

582
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:06,200
know, tabernacles, those sorts
of things, they are literally

583
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,400
putting themselves in the place
of the ancestors.

584
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,480
So if I'm not mistaken, when
when a Passover meal comes

585
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,800
around, someone says, and this
is what the Lord did for me.

586
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,160
Well, they didn't really do it.
He didn't really do that for

587
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,120
you.
He did that for your ancestors.

588
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,440
And so in in some ways what we
do in the temple follows that

589
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,200
same pattern, right?
We're going to put ourselves in

590
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,760
the place of the ancestors, in
this case the ultimate

591
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,920
ancestors, but nonetheless, the
patterns still hold.

592
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,200
Right.
Yep.

593
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,360
Yes, Sir.
So.

594
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,440
So your dad puts this all
together based off of those?

595
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:50,160
Yeah, over other conversations
we had had and, and things that

596
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,240
we both had read together.
You know, a lot of what I've

597
00:36:53,240 --> 00:36:56,000
ever read, you know, besides
recent years because he was

598
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,560
reading.
Right.

599
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,440
Right.
This is father, like son kind of

600
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:00,160
a thing.
Sure.

601
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:01,360
Hey, Dad.
What you reading?

602
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,280
Oh, reading this.
Oh, that sounds interesting.

603
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,720
Can I borrow it after you?
Whatever.

604
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,040
You know, that was a lot of my
childhood.

605
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:09,120
Yeah.
No.

606
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,440
Makes sense.
And he's a voracious reader.

607
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,000
Right.
Right.

608
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,480
No, it makes sense.
It's good.

609
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:16,960
Give you guys something to talk
about, too.

610
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:17,640
Yeah.
No.

611
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,680
And so and so, Yeah.
The parallels are obvious.

612
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:21,200
So.
Yeah, mysteries are.

613
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,400
And there's there's Greek there.
There's the the Lewisian

614
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,920
mysteries and the Orphic
mysteries are Greek mysteries

615
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:34,000
and I think it's the Orphic ones
where the initiates represent.

616
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,600
And this is interesting too,
because the genealogy of the

617
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,800
gods are totally different and
it's like a totally different

618
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,520
cosmology than like normal media
when we talked about, you know,

619
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,560
in pop culture, like depictions
of like Greek mythology is all

620
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,400
based off of like Homer and
Hesiod in their books.

621
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,680
But like when it gets into the
temple stuff, it's completely

622
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,560
different.
And so for example, like Dion

623
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:05,360
Dionysus is one of the gods, if
not the God that you personify.

624
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:10,080
And in this, in the, in the
liturgy, in the myth, he is, you

625
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:15,440
know, Zeus begets Dionysus and
then Dionysus is devoured and

626
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,840
torn apart by typhoon, which is
he's the, he's the father of the

627
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:27,080
giants and the oysters.
And the whole play in that

628
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,720
temple is about Dionysus getting
resurrected.

629
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,080
Interesting, you know, and
becoming more exalted.

630
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,200
And I think he becomes like
Apollo or something like that

631
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,480
instead, you know, the God of
the sun.

632
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:39,960
Right.
You know, yeah.

633
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,680
It's all over the place.
Yeah, No, those motifs are

634
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,720
consistent.
Consistent.

635
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,720
Interesting.
So, OK, so we've kind of

636
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:57,280
established that this is a
pattern stretching back for all

637
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,880
of mankind's history.
Yeah, the temples for sure is.

638
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:06,560
Yeah, absolutely.
Or get my notes back up here.

639
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:08,280
OK, we're good.
Where where do you want to go

640
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:09,240
from here?
Up to you.

641
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,520
So we talked about Joseph Smith,
his lecture at the Veil, talking

642
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,800
about how we, we create our
children out of the dust of the

643
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,960
earth the same way that God
created Adam out of the dust of

644
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:36,120
the earth, right?
When Joseph dies, you have Lyman

645
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,560
White, he goes down to Texas and
he's the first person to build a

646
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:41,400
temple West of the Mississippi,
right?

647
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,120
James J Strang, I don't know if
he ever did temple ordinances

648
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:47,680
outside of the temple, but he
was building a temple.

649
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,360
I don't think it ever got
completed, but entirely sure

650
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,720
about that.
But he was building 1.

651
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,720
William Smith, Joseph's brother,
was doing temple stuff.

652
00:39:56,720 --> 00:39:59,360
I want to say maybe with John C
Bennett, I don't recall, or

653
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:05,000
maybe independently.
No, I think it was John C

654
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,840
Bennett.
Or maybe John C Bennett was with

655
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:15,240
James String and his was overly
Masonic and like he called it

656
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:17,360
the highest order of the priest,
like the Illuminati.

657
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:18,400
Really.
Yeah.

658
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,600
And you can, you can read about
that and shoot, I don't recall

659
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,680
the source, but Hugh Nibley
talks about it and one of I

660
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,200
think it's a, it's an article I
really love.

661
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:34,080
It's called 1 Eternal Round, a
hermetic view which is found in

662
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,800
Temple in Cosmos.
All right.

663
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:42,960
A fantastic article and he he
brings it up kind of

664
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,440
illustrating like he like it
seems like John C Bennett was

665
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,720
really trying to up one up
Joseph and the complexity and it

666
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:50,120
was just a bunch of nonsense
really.

667
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,480
You could see that from Bennett
right there there if if you ever

668
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,280
read Bennett, he is kind of
pompous.

669
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:56,880
Right.
And so I kind of want to bring

670
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,040
up also an evaluation of, you
know, because Adam God is in the

671
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:05,400
temple, What happens when you
mistreat temple ordinances

672
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,280
generally?
I think it's also germane to the

673
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:11,880
conversation.
Alpheus Cutler is another one.

674
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,120
And they did temple stuff
outside of a temple, but they

675
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,280
didn't build 1 until and they
went all over the place.

676
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:19,320
I think they were up in
Wisconsin for a while.

677
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:25,640
And then they went to Missouri
and they were in Kansas, I want

678
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,280
to say, for a little bit too.
They did travel around a little

679
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,880
bit.
Yeah, and they have A to this

680
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,360
day, you know, there's like 7
members left to their church,

681
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,200
but they have a temple.
Do they really?

682
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,360
And they do, they do baptisms
for the dead and I think they do

683
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,640
endowment still, but like they
don't really.

684
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:45,240
They don't proselyte and I don't
think.

685
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,480
So is.
It you people can join them even

686
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,080
maybe you could, but I don't
know really you can't.

687
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,040
No, he's not.
I think one person, kind of I

688
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,440
was reading something about the
people I was in preparation for

689
00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:59,680
this.
I was reading an article that

690
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,560
Deseret News put out in 1988 and
I think it said something along

691
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:09,240
the lines of one guy went and
joined their Yeah, one guy had

692
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:14,480
joined the church and he's.
It's listing all the crazy stuff

693
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,160
that people who claimed one
Mighty claimed to be 1 Mighty

694
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:21,320
and Strong had done after like
the laugh for the murders and is

695
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,840
like.
And contrary to how people

696
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,840
claiming to be the one Mighty
and Strong are normally

697
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:27,960
advocates of polygamy, this guy
wasn't.

698
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:33,160
And he left the LDS church
because Joseph Smith practiced

699
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:37,760
polygamy, went and joined the
Cutlerites, and then claimed to

700
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,240
be the one mighty and strong for
them.

701
00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:45,600
And then they kicked him out.
Which which again, I think is,

702
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,560
is, you know, kind of like a
public service announcement here

703
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,240
if you're going to claim to be
the one mighty and strong, you

704
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:55,120
do not have a long career in
front of.

705
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:55,520
You.
No.

706
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,280
No, you don't.
Unless you're really that guy,

707
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,680
you're not that guy and you're
you're your career is going to

708
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,680
be short lived.
So to my knowledge, we don't

709
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,680
know anything about the
Cutlerite endowment, but we do

710
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,880
know they used to practice
polygamy, but they stopped.

711
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,360
OK.
And I've heard multiple reasons

712
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:16,680
for why.
But they don't do that anymore,

713
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,800
and in fact, to this day they
will deny that they ever did.

714
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:21,320
Really.
Yeah, like that.

715
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,800
Hard of a turnabout on that one.
Went full 80 and stuck.

716
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,120
To it, right.
And so like, OK, can you make

717
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,800
when you start abandoning
principles of the gospel, what

718
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,240
happens?
Well, they're nothing now at

719
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:33,760
this point, they're seven
members.

720
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,200
Yeah, if that.
Are they Adam God folks?

721
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,640
Maybe.
I doubt it, but you never know.

722
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:42,920
Because we don't know.
They won't tell any.

723
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:44,880
They never.
They don't write the ceremony

724
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,480
down.
It's all.

725
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,960
All thy memory and oral
tradition passing it on.

726
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,120
It's spooky too.
I mean, I know Brigham

727
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,120
essentially had to do it that
way, right?

728
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,560
Or at least part of it.
I, I don't know, as as I read

729
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,400
the history, I think that there
was probably some stuff written

730
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,400
down.
Oh, sure.

731
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:10,040
Because I had heard one temple
president once back in my LDS

732
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:16,280
days state that the Saints
brought the, the endowment out

733
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,440
that way.
The only issue I, I take with

734
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,960
that so, so it paints this
picture and a false picture

735
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,960
that, OK, this was all just
knowledge people had.

736
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,680
And we don't see temple work
popped back up again until 1877

737
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,520
down in Saint George.
Well, that's not true, right?

738
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,200
Because we know they're doing
endowments and temple ordinances

739
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:44,000
without even an, an endowment
house in Utah as they're

740
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,360
building temples.
And then we know they build an

741
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,080
endowment house cropper before
the temple.

742
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:55,280
So it's not like to, to me, the,
the, the Brighamite lines show a

743
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,560
very clear and consistent
pattern that those ordinances

744
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,520
never really go out of vogue,
right?

745
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,960
There's not much of A space of
time that they're not

746
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,000
practicing.
Those no.

747
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,160
So on the planes they would do,
ceilings they would.

748
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,920
They did a few second
anointings, I believe, and they

749
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,000
would consistently do prayer
circle forum meetings and stuff

750
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,040
like that where everyone would
dress up in the temple garbs,

751
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:17,200
you know, and you're on the
planes.

752
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:18,880
There's no temple.
So at least that's being

753
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,400
practiced, right?
You know, the ceremony, the

754
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,360
drama wasn't as far as I'm
aware, ever done except for

755
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,480
something along that line was
done on Ensign Peak with Addison

756
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,720
Pratt and one other guy before
they were sent on their missions

757
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,720
to Hawaii.
Or, or was it some other island?

758
00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:39,720
I don't recall, but then, yeah,
immediately they built the

759
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:44,520
council house, which was a 45 by
45, two-story building and they

760
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,880
did endowments in the upper
section, the second story of

761
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,760
that until 1853 when the
endowment house was built.

762
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:59,080
And then that was built for the
and that was the first time a

763
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:05,520
progressive endowment where
rooms were architecturally pre

764
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,360
planned to illustrate what we
see now because every other time

765
00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,520
it was veils realm.
Right, interesting.

766
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,480
You know, you and I talked about
this a little bit beforehand,

767
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,240
and I like what you said because
I it changed.

768
00:46:20,240 --> 00:46:22,920
It changed my mind a little bit
here because I always thought,

769
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,680
OK, maybe these deeper things
aren't really floating around

770
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,120
Kirtland, but the fact you said
they put up veils in the

771
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,080
Kirtland Temple makes me very
curious.

772
00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:33,880
Right.
And so we never got to see what

773
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,480
the full extent of Kirtland
could have been.

774
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:40,840
And you said, well, it was to
divide the priesthood quorums.

775
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:42,280
And that's true.
That's the way it was used in

776
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,920
that context.
But they could have also

777
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,280
eventually used them for the
same ceremonies we have today.

778
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,200
Right.
And that would have been

779
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,280
interesting.
So it was there.

780
00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:00,040
Yeah.
You have any other thoughts?

781
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:01,040
Nope.
OK.

782
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,040
See, that's Cutler, and he gets
rid of polygamy.

783
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:12,840
Lyman White was pro polygamy,
but it wasn't like, yeah, it

784
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:17,800
wasn't like Utah Reformation pro
polygamy.

785
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,840
Right, right.
Lyman White's stance was pretty

786
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:28,600
much if you if you're sealed in
what we call the higher, You

787
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:31,320
know what smart people call a
hierogamous marriage, right?

788
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,840
A sacred marriage.
You will get glory, but if you

789
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,680
have more than one, it'll be
more glory.

790
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,560
Right.
And their endowment, from what

791
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:45,640
we know was significantly
different, though I don't know

792
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:50,240
if the drama was there and it
seems the Masonic elements were

793
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:53,600
gone.
It pretty much amounted to a

794
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:58,160
washing of the feet and of the
body and anointing of the head,

795
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:07,720
placing of the garments and
sealing the spouses and

796
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:10,160
anointing them, kings and
Queens, priests and priestesses,

797
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,000
and that was it.
So they were kind of like almost

798
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:20,520
merging the second anointing
with so with with maybe or or

799
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,520
maybe it's more of an initiatory
thing.

800
00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:27,880
So the speculation is Lyman
White got a second anointing.

801
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,160
I don't think we know 100%
percent sure.

802
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,640
I could be wrong on that, but I
think we're not 100% sure that

803
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,240
he got a second anointing.
Isn't there a quote from Brigham

804
00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:38,760
Young?
Something to the effect of, and

805
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:43,800
I'm paraphrasing here, but Lyman
should be here with us, but

806
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:47,920
nonetheless, he's perfectly
within his rights to do what

807
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,200
he's doing in Texas.
Yeah, that does under, under the

808
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,320
considering that.
That does lead me to believe

809
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,000
that he probably did right, if
you ever said that, considering

810
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,120
other things Brigham Young said
about the second annoying thing.

811
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:02,120
But they changed their mind
about that, right?

812
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:05,960
Yeah, Brigham started saying
come back, come back, come back,

813
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:07,640
right.
And, you know, he had changed

814
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,760
his mind.
And then Lyman was like pretty

815
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:15,320
bitter against Brigham.
But one of the accounts we have

816
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:21,760
from a guy named Holly, he says
he, well, he, he went through

817
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,760
his first endowment in the LDS
Church or no, sorry, in like in

818
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,440
Lyman White's temple in Zodiac,
Texas.

819
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,400
Then in like the 1860s, he went
to Utah and joined the LDS

820
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,720
church.
But by the end of it, he by the

821
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:40,040
end of his life, he had joined
the RLDS church and he went and

822
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:41,880
testified at the Temple walk
case.

823
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,720
Oh wow.
In favor of the RLDS Church.

824
00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:48,000
But he started describing the
ceremonies that he had been

825
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:53,400
through and and comparing the
Lyman White's endowment and

826
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,840
Brigham Young's endowment.
And he said something along the

827
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:02,560
lines of Brigham Young had
created a second endowment that

828
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,600
prepared you for the
resurrection that Lyman White

829
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:12,360
did not have.
Now, that doesn't mean Lyman

830
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:14,280
White didn't perform second
anointings.

831
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,240
It just technically, it just
means Holly never received it

832
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,320
and and didn't know about it.
It could mean it could mean

833
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,120
Lyman never performed second
anointings, but it could also

834
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,040
mean that Holly just didn't know
and was not in the right.

835
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,200
In and out, right, Right.
No.

836
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,800
And.
Look, I don't know what Lyman's

837
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:41,960
ache was on One man ISM or any
of those other things, but the

838
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,680
guys who were more concerned
with One man ISM don't typical,

839
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:50,280
aren't as typically as excited
to pass those along to other

840
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,120
people because it's problematic,
right?

841
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:59,880
In that you're going to make
somebody your equal and that for

842
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,640
power hungry individuals, I'm
not saying Lyman was one of

843
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:07,440
these guys, but for guys who
are, it poses a problem.

844
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:12,360
And I I I just don't know what
Lyman's position was on on a

845
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,520
doctrine like one man ISM.
They only had a temple operative

846
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:20,040
for two years and they were a
fairly small group of about 200

847
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,920
people or so, give or take,
right?

848
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,160
So maybe things would have
changed over time and, you know,

849
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,600
and he would have initiated
those people that way to the

850
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,440
highest degree.
And he was just holding off

851
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,320
because got to prove it.
Got to prove you're worthy.

852
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:37,960
I don't know.
Right.

853
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,000
Or or maybe he had forgotten.
You know, talking to Jacob about

854
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:43,560
this, he was saying it makes
sense.

855
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,360
For example, with the White
Heights didn't have marks on

856
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:52,560
their garments like we do
because in the Nauvoo ceremony

857
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,280
that Lyman White had been
familiar with, the marks were

858
00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:00,680
cut in after the covenants were
made after the ceremony, right?

859
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:05,600
And therefore Lyman remembered
going through without having

860
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,280
marks on his garment.
Right, because it was done at

861
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,400
the end.
Yeah, because they were

862
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,840
physically cut in instead of
abetting be sewn in.

863
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:15,400
Right.
Beforehand right?

864
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:20,680
Interrupting to think about.
You know, and, and gosh, I don't

865
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,520
know when they they folded shop
officially, but they weren't

866
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:27,120
around very long, right?
Oh no, I mean, I think Lyman

867
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,000
died in 1858.
And that was pretty much the

868
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:31,280
end.
That was the end of it, yeah.

869
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,160
And a lot of the people went to
the RLDS.

870
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:44,680
Were the RLDS folks during that
time more amenable to plural

871
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,520
marriage and that sort of thing?
I don't think so.

872
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,960
That's interesting, right?
Because it is something down

873
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:56,800
there and you would think that
the easier fit would be to go to

874
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:58,240
Utah.
I would think that.

875
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,200
I would think that.
Which tells me that Wyman

876
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:03,560
probably talked a lot of crap
about bringing me up.

877
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:10,640
That's probably true and so, but
the RLDS never did an endowment.

878
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:14,560
Right, I knew that.
And so look at the state of them

879
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,200
today when we're comparing, you
know, in this exercise, right,

880
00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:19,080
right.
They've completely lost

881
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:24,120
everything and fractured and
have rebranded to the Community

882
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:27,400
of Christ, and they're
essentially just an evangelical

883
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,960
Christian organization that just
might not be Trinitarian.

884
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,960
There was another guy I was
talking to here not too long

885
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:38,720
ago, a name that you would
recognize who, who doesn't have,

886
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,160
let's just say he doesn't have
our sensibilities in fighting

887
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,600
for some of the the doctrines we
fight for.

888
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:52,560
And he said, can you even call
the community of Christ Mormon

889
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,040
at this point?
No, I wouldn't.

890
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:55,160
I wouldn't.
Right.

891
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,600
I mean, Hook of Mormon is, at
best inspired fiction.

892
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,440
Oh, my goodness.
Right.

893
00:54:00,720 --> 00:54:04,880
Yeah.
Doctrine and Covenants have have

894
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:13,120
turned into, quite frankly, a
liberal pile that just espouses

895
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:17,880
everything that traditional
Mormonism or orthodox Mormonism

896
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:24,440
stood up against, right?
And continues to you had they're

897
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,600
selling everything, right?
Like if, if you want to know

898
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,320
what a garage sale looks like
for a, for a church, I mean,

899
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,920
they seem to be right there.
And, and I want to say there's

900
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,360
great people in there.
I'm not saying there's not.

901
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,160
But we're seeing a pattern now
start to emerge, right?

902
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:46,440
One with Wyman White's group and
now with the Community of Christ

903
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:51,520
slash RLDS, right?
So on a tangent to this, that

904
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,680
article I was reading about from
Deseret News in 1988, that one

905
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:56,600
mighty and strong.
There's another guy I think in

906
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:01,160
the RLDS church claimed to be
the one mighty and strong after

907
00:55:03,240 --> 00:55:06,800
he found out that the
missionaries of the RLDS had

908
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:11,040
started baptizing polygamists in
India in their in their mission

909
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:16,080
field.
Such a double standard.

910
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,680
Oh dude, it is so rough, you
know?

911
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:20,560
I know and.
Then the LDS church won't

912
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,800
baptize polygamists.
I know in America, you know, we

913
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,600
had among people, you know, I
served my mission in Minnesota

914
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,640
and there's a among minority
there.

915
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,880
I know some exist in British
Columbia and some exist in

916
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,600
Montana and with a high school,
some over in Missoula.

917
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,440
And awesome people love it.
Great food.

918
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:38,720
By the way, I don't know if
you've ever.

919
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,720
Who are the monks?
So they came from Indo Indochina

920
00:55:41,720 --> 00:55:45,200
area which is Vietnam, Laos.
So they're, they're, they never

921
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,920
had a nation state in modern
history, you know, so they, they

922
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:49,840
lived in China.
So they're kind of like the

923
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,040
Pyrenees, not not really a
nation state of their own.

924
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:54,520
Right.
So they lived in China and the

925
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:58,480
Han Chinese pushed them out, OK.
And interestingly, they say they

926
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,920
used to have blonde hair and
blue eyes, but they look Asian.

927
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,000
You know, they went down to Laos
and Vietnam, and then during the

928
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:06,360
Vietnam War, they all came over
here.

929
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:08,840
OK, Well, a lot of them did.
OK.

930
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,320
All right.
Minnesota has a ton.

931
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,360
Montana had a few.
I don't know.

932
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,600
I mean, I knew my first exposure
was 14 to 18 growing up in

933
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:18,760
Montana.
Gotcha.

934
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:21,200
You know, and I think there's a
lot in British Columbia as well,

935
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,960
but OK.
But there's a lot in Minnesota

936
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:28,040
and they're polygamist.
Interesting.

937
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:33,680
And we had monk speaking elders.
Whoa, so it was a focal?

938
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:37,320
Point dedicated missionaries to
learn that language.

939
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:44,040
I knew elders who they were
particularly all that at times

940
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,880
for weeks, as often as they
could, they were instructed by

941
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:54,160
the mission president to go to
the temple in Saint Paul and go

942
00:56:54,160 --> 00:57:00,440
through the temple in English,
go home and write the endowment

943
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,560
in month.
Holy cow, because they had not

944
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:08,200
gotten among investigators to go
and to progress, they needed to

945
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:09,960
go through the temple.
But they did not have that

946
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,720
language yet in the temple.
And for some reason, the elders

947
00:57:13,720 --> 00:57:18,280
were not allowed to take pens
and notepads into the endowment

948
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,200
to write down.
So they had to go through the

949
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,240
sessions over and over and over.
And I talked to those elders.

950
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:24,400
But what are you up to this
week?

951
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,240
Going back to the temple, You
know, got to translate more into

952
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:30,600
teams among.
I'd have been all over that.

953
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:32,680
No, it would have been cool.
But they were kind of tired of

954
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:35,080
it, I bet.
It's, in my opinion, kind of

955
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:36,320
silly.
But it's interesting.

956
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,720
They were having that pilot
program and then elders my age

957
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,320
we're translating the endowment
into into mom, which makes it

958
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,080
hard because they they've
changed the ceremony twice since

959
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:48,640
then.
Right, right.

960
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,400
At this point, at this point,
if, if it was the same elders,

961
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,120
they'd have carpal tunnel.
I mean, the with with the speed

962
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:56,720
at which that ordinance is
changing.

963
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,200
Right.
But we couldn't baptize the

964
00:57:58,200 --> 00:58:01,880
polygamist once, right?
Dude, it's fascinating.

965
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:07,320
So I remember I listened to a
talk and and look, this dude

966
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,520
comes with issues.
I don't want anyone to think

967
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,920
that I'm totally on board with
some of his ideas or whatnot,

968
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:17,280
but he did do some pretty good
history, and that was D Michael

969
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,080
Quinn.
Yes, yes, yes he did.

970
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:23,240
And one of the things that he
had said during this little

971
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:27,080
presentation, so it was after
his excommunication and they

972
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:31,200
asked if he'd ever go back to
the church, said, oh, I'd love

973
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:36,120
to, but just because of some
moral issues, I can't.

974
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,200
Now.
My first thought, Michael D

975
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,800
Michael Quinn came out of the
closet, said that he was gay.

976
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,960
And I thought it was going to be
over that issue.

977
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,400
When someone pressed him and
said, what kind of moral issue?

978
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:55,280
He said back in the 80s when the
LDS Church could could start or

979
00:58:55,280 --> 00:59:01,040
late 70s, early 80s, could start
baptizing or ordaining black men

980
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:07,600
of the priesthood, the numbers
started to rise for baptisms in

981
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:13,480
Africa.
But polygamy was, I won't say

982
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:15,600
ubiquitous, but it was close,
right?

983
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:20,440
I mean, there was a lot of
polygamy going on in Africa, but

984
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:24,880
the church had made men get rid
of part of their families,

985
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,800
right?
And Quinn said I won't go back

986
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:30,160
until that gets fixed, which I
thought was interesting,

987
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,480
especially coming from a guy
like Quinn because he, again,

988
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,640
he's got no dog in that fight
now other than just being a

989
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:41,040
decent human being.
So his interest in history came

990
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:45,000
from when he read Samuel
Taylor's book on his father,

991
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:49,400
John W Taylor, and he read that
story that he wrote about John W

992
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,080
Taylor's life and, you know,
getting in his defense of

993
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,000
polygamy after the manifesto,
Right, Right.

994
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,520
That was kind of what inspired
Quinn's trajectory on those

995
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:03,240
studies and.
He's, when fundamentalists asked

996
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:07,400
him like, you know, you know
why, you know, he said, you

997
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:09,400
know, or why you show it, share
the stuff with us.

998
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,960
And, you know, he's not a
polygamist, he's not a

999
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,320
fundamentalist, but he's always
kind of supported

1000
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,280
fundamentalists to a degree.
And he said something along the

1001
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,080
lines of because I believe in
good families and I believe that

1002
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,560
this promotes good families.
That's fascinating.

1003
01:00:25,360 --> 01:00:27,920
And again, not a guy that's
definitely got a dog in that

1004
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,320
fight, right?
Interesting.

1005
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:37,360
And yeah, so coming back to the
Community of Christ, there's not

1006
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,800
much much left now, right?
Oh, and it's interesting, I've

1007
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,760
heard from, I mean, there's
different factions, I think, or

1008
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:50,600
some will say the endowment was
all made-up Bergen Young.

1009
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,880
But then there's other ones who
are more honest, who are like,

1010
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:58,240
yeah, no, Joseph Smith did give
the endowment.

1011
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:02,640
And ultimately we just, we don't
trust how it ended up.

1012
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:06,920
And we know and we knew for a
while that we needed to progress

1013
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,320
towards that, but we never did.
And we don't know what it's

1014
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:12,640
supposed to look like.
And see, they're a fascinating

1015
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:17,360
case because so I'm not
mistaken, anything from the

1016
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,720
Nauru period was looked at with
the side eye at least, if not

1017
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:25,360
outright rejected, right?
And so it seems like they never

1018
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,400
even got off on the right foot,
right?

1019
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:34,760
And so, yeah, now they're just
down to, you know, I don't know

1020
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,080
how many members, but things
aren't going great.

1021
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:40,520
No, no.
When you have fire sales every

1022
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:45,120
so often for sacred historical
sites to just pay the pensions,

1023
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:49,160
it's not a good place to be.
Yeah, no, I imagine their break

1024
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:50,880
off groups are going to do
better.

1025
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,320
You know, the ones that stay
true to the, you know, before

1026
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,680
ordaining women and all that
stuff.

1027
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:59,080
You know, the restoration
branches, you know the true RLDS

1028
01:01:59,600 --> 01:02:01,800
people.
You know there's one in Jackson

1029
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:08,360
County, like Eastern Jackson
County back in the, it's more

1030
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,480
rural.
I think someone did a like their

1031
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:14,040
profit, did a podcast or
something I was watching a year

1032
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,240
or two ago where he said they
had 200 acres that they were

1033
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,960
trying to do into a development
for a united order.

1034
01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:22,760
Wow.
It's a big step.

1035
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:24,760
It is a big step.
Don't know how it's turning out,

1036
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:28,640
but they're doing something OK,
better than their parent

1037
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:31,000
organization.
Yeah, absolutely.

1038
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:36,800
Maybe back more to Adam, God,
Adam God's confusion people,

1039
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:38,400
Right.
I think that's where I want to

1040
01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:42,640
go with this.
What are the common objections

1041
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:46,600
you hear to Adam God?
The ones I get is that it

1042
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:50,280
doesn't fit scripture, but I
want to put a caveat on that.

1043
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:52,880
Back to my one of the things I
started with.

1044
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:57,280
I think they're saying it
doesn't fit the Canon, not.

1045
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:03,880
Scripture, right, the I think
the what I get pushed back with

1046
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:09,520
the most is who is Jehovah then,
right, Yep, Yep, that's a big

1047
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:10,960
one, right?
Yep.

1048
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:14,680
And so Jesus Christ is
identified as Jehovah and then

1049
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,160
therefore with the presentation
of certain things, it seems to

1050
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:21,560
show Jehovah is in a or that is
it.

1051
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,640
Let's just say that Adam and is
this is in this subordinate

1052
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:26,640
position to Jehovah, right,
right.

1053
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,680
Therefore Christ is above Adam.
So therefore, how could Christ

1054
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,680
be the father or how Adam be the
Father exactly.

1055
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:42,880
Yep, there is some evidence, not
a lot, but there's one affidavit

1056
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,840
from 1860 or so, I think one guy
who left the church, his name

1057
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:49,280
was John Hyde.
He says that he recalls in the

1058
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:54,800
Nauvoo and or not not Naboo Salt
Lake Endowment House that there

1059
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,800
was in the portrayal in the
drama, there was 4 characters,

1060
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:04,440
Elohim, Jehovah, Michael and
Christ, right.

1061
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:08,600
And you have statements that
kind of could support that from

1062
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,040
Brigham Young and Heber C
Kimball, where they talk about

1063
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:18,200
in those days of the 1850s and
early 1860s, about how they were

1064
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,560
perfecting the ordinances,
right?

1065
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:23,240
Which might be like, OK, they're
playing with a few things, still

1066
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:26,520
changing a few things in order
to systematize it, right?

1067
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,680
Because Joseph Smith gave
Brigham Young that charge to

1068
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,600
systematize it, right?
Right.

1069
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,160
So we don't see that.
And I'm not saying that that's a

1070
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,880
problem, but it is an evidence
that in the minds of the

1071
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:40,080
architects of the endowment,
those personages were different,

1072
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:41,280
right?
Potentially, right.

1073
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:50,120
Lorenzo Snow, it seems, had a
conversation with a one of the

1074
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:52,880
presidents of the 70, I think
his name was Edward Stephenson

1075
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:57,320
and he was Edward Stephenson was
an early convert joining the

1076
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:02,600
church in Nauvoo like 1832 and
went up through the church and

1077
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:05,440
as young as a young man was a
prolific missionary his entire

1078
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:09,880
life and became a very big
proponent of Adam Gob later in

1079
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:13,480
his life.
And he writes in his journal

1080
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:18,960
after having a conversation with
Lorenzo Snow, that Elohim comes

1081
01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:24,040
first, then second Jehovah, then
third, Michael Adam, then 4th

1082
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:29,080
Jesus Christ.
And he says, Who is Jehovah, the

1083
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:32,040
only begotten son of Elohim on
Jehovah's world?

1084
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:37,520
Interesting, interesting.
So they're making that those

1085
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,760
connections and those those
pointing out the differences

1086
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,200
between the characters.
They are, and I'm not sure if

1087
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:47,760
Joseph Musser was aware of this,
that person and those

1088
01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:51,400
statements, but his model of
that of God was very similar to

1089
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:57,840
that delineation where Elohim is
above Jehovah and Michael.

1090
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,160
And to disambiguate Jehovah and
Christ, he would.

1091
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,920
He would say there's a Jehovah
Christ and Jesus Christ the Son

1092
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:06,680
of Mary.
OK.

1093
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:11,040
Right, And so his and Joseph
Muster's framework, Michael the

1094
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:15,560
Archangel might have been a Co
heir on a previous world with

1095
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:19,320
Jehovah who was the Savior, was
the Christ, but it's not our

1096
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:22,920
Christ.
And Jesus Christ is Father Adam,

1097
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:25,520
Michael's son, right on this
world.

1098
01:06:26,240 --> 01:06:27,600
That tracks.
That makes sense.

1099
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:29,880
That's the model I.
Adhere to with with Adam.

1100
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:30,920
God, yeah.
Me too.

1101
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:32,680
That's the model that makes
sense.

1102
01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:34,400
Right.
So, but there's evidence for the

1103
01:06:34,400 --> 01:06:37,400
predate Joseph Musser for that
with Lorenzo Snow and Edward

1104
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:42,480
Stevenson and with that expose
right for the four characters in

1105
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:45,120
the endowment right
disambiguating Christ and

1106
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:46,480
Jehovah.
Right.

1107
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:55,240
So let me ask you this.
Why is it do you think that that

1108
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:59,280
why do you think so many people
are so anxious to get rid of it?

1109
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:03,320
Is it just, is it that we're,
we're, we're still dealing with

1110
01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:07,640
the sectarian notions?
I think for that, that there can

1111
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:09,560
be no higher authority than
Jesus.

1112
01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:14,960
Well, I think that's part of the
there's a trend in Mormonism

1113
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,640
that we want the Christians to
accept us and like be part of

1114
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:20,240
the same team.
Just stupid.

1115
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:23,400
Like we want, we want
recognition and it is stupid.

1116
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,080
So there's that.
The second thing is we've never

1117
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:29,040
gotten over saying Adam sinned.
Yeah.

1118
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,360
Where I can go find in the words
of Joseph Smith, where Joseph

1119
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,840
Smith says that he didn't?
Right.

1120
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:40,520
You know, and his teaching that
Nauvoo that there was no sin in

1121
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,480
Adam for taking of the fruit.
And so, but with that being

1122
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:46,880
raised from primary into
adulthood, Adam sinned.

1123
01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:50,240
And then to hear that Adam is
God, that does not, you can't,

1124
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,760
you can't reconcile it because
God can't sin, right?

1125
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:57,280
So there's that.
That's part of it, I think.

1126
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:03,480
I have no doubt that people who
want to call it the Jehovah

1127
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:07,480
Jesus theory, right, That they
want that, that they, they cling

1128
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:12,200
to that I, I get it, right?
I, I don't think it comes from a

1129
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,560
bad place.
I think it comes from a place of

1130
01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:19,200
wanting again, trying to deal
with that cognitive dissonance,

1131
01:08:19,279 --> 01:08:22,800
right?
You've been raised forever with

1132
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:26,760
this idea and the to back it up
further, it comes from our

1133
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:32,399
forbearers who were involved in
sectarian Christianity that

1134
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:38,040
Christ has to be superior in all
ways.

1135
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:44,080
To add, problem is it doesn't
fit with the ordinances and it

1136
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:48,200
doesn't fit with statements that
Joseph made about Adam, right?

1137
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:51,880
Because in the teachings of the
Prophet Joseph Smith, there are

1138
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:59,080
several statements that's not
just insinuate but scream that

1139
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:05,240
that Christ is in a subservient
role to Adam, right?

1140
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:09,120
Every time Adam is revealed,
according to Joseph Smith, every

1141
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:11,960
time that Jesus is revealed,
who's he revealed by Adam's

1142
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,040
authority?
Adam's authority when the

1143
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,040
ordinances are revealed who they
revealed by.

1144
01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:19,560
Adam and his authority.
Adam and his authority.

1145
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:23,200
OK.
So I want to go to someplace

1146
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:27,040
where I think people get really
hung up and that's in the

1147
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:31,520
account and doctrine and
covenants of when Christ will

1148
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:35,640
come to Adam on diamond.
Everyone gives their their their

1149
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:39,600
accounting of what they've done
with with priesthood keys.

1150
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:45,200
And then it says Adam then gives
the keys to Christ.

1151
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:52,000
People have said, see, well that
means that that Christ is in the

1152
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:54,720
the the dominant role there.
Right.

1153
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:56,040
Yes, they do.
They do say that.

1154
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:57,640
I think we're reading that the
wrong way.

1155
01:09:57,640 --> 01:09:58,560
They.
Are well, who's the one

1156
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:00,520
enthroned?
It's it's Adam.

1157
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:01,920
He's.
The one sitting on the throne of

1158
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:05,520
the burning wheels where 10,000
angels are ministering.

1159
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:10,320
To them, I I've often put it
kind of in this kind of

1160
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:14,000
similitude, which is OK.
When my son comes to me when

1161
01:10:14,000 --> 01:10:18,720
he's 16 years old and he's
proven himself to be responsible

1162
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:23,520
enough, makes good decisions, I
can trust him.

1163
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:30,640
Dad, can I drive the car and I
give him the keys?

1164
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:34,160
Right.
Does that mean that my son's now

1165
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:39,760
in a a chief role to me?
No, No.

1166
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:43,160
That just means that he's got to
the point to where I'm like,

1167
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:47,600
you've earned it yours.
Yep, because Joseph says that

1168
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:52,800
Adam had the keys of the
universe, right?

1169
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:57,760
And then he gives the keys to
Jesus, but retains his standing

1170
01:10:57,760 --> 01:10:59,360
at the as the head of the human
family.

1171
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:01,640
So he's the one enthroned in the
imagery.

1172
01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:06,000
Where do I?
Want to go with that?

1173
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:10,720
It's a coronation.
Yes, thank you.

1174
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:15,080
It this is King Benjamin giving
Mosiah the Kingdom at the

1175
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:18,520
Temple.
This is the same program that

1176
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:22,640
we're seeing.
And King Mosiah ascends to his

1177
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:26,320
father's throne, that Christ is
ascending to his father's

1178
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:27,280
throne.
Right.

1179
01:11:28,400 --> 01:11:30,120
That's what's happening in Adam
and Allen.

1180
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:35,400
Absolutely, but people get hung
up because the cursory reading

1181
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:39,120
and and I'll say this without
going back to the teachings of

1182
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,600
Joseph Smith that's found
outside the cannon.

1183
01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,120
I can see where you get all
screwed up with that, right.

1184
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:48,320
It's real easy to I held that
belief for a long time until I

1185
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:51,520
started to real really dig in
and peel back the layers on this

1186
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:55,640
thing and it becomes readily
apparent that Adam's role is

1187
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:59,200
simply more than just somebody
to kick start the race.

1188
01:12:00,440 --> 01:12:04,360
It it, it had he's he's far more
central to the figure than

1189
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:06,360
anyone knows.
Sure.

1190
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:21,520
So maybe let me read a quote too
from Heber C Kimball when

1191
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:23,480
Speaking of the endowment, Heber
said.

1192
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:26,160
Quote.
We have been taken, as it were,

1193
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:29,120
from the earth and have
travelled until we have entered

1194
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:31,600
the Celestial Kingdom.
And what is it for?

1195
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:36,720
It is to personify Adam and you
discover that our God is like

1196
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,120
one of us, for He created us in
his own image.

1197
01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:42,680
Every man that ever came upon
this earth or any other earth

1198
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:44,520
will take the course that we
have taken.

1199
01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:49,600
End Quote.
So yeah, we have traveled from

1200
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:51,160
this world to the celestial
Kingdom.

1201
01:12:51,160 --> 01:12:52,880
Why?
To personify Adam.

1202
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:58,560
Also, in the earliest Nabu
temple rituals, there were no

1203
01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,320
witness couple.
Right.

1204
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:06,960
And so EV.
And the major part of the

1205
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:09,240
program was to make sure that
there was an equal number of

1206
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:11,680
males and females.
You didn't have to be married,

1207
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:16,560
but there had to be an equal
number of males and females so

1208
01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:19,560
that they can be couples that
could each portray Adam and Eve

1209
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,680
throughout the endowment and
each couple would individually

1210
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:25,880
make the covenants at the altar
instead of having a witness

1211
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:27,120
couple.
Interesting.

1212
01:13:27,440 --> 01:13:31,400
So what is this teaching?
It's putting us in Adam's shoe.

1213
01:13:31,480 --> 01:13:33,280
Very much so putting you in
Adam's shoes.

1214
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:36,960
And what did Adam just do?
Come down from from heaven and

1215
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:40,000
create the earth and then come
down to it and people it and

1216
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:41,440
people it.
Yeah.

1217
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:49,920
And so really the endowment is
telling the future, our future,

1218
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:53,320
our future, not the past.
And we look at it being the past

1219
01:13:53,320 --> 01:13:55,680
with the names associated in
that context.

1220
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:59,040
OK, let's say Jesus is Jehovah
because we're the Adam and the

1221
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:00,880
Michael, and our wives are Eve.
Right.

1222
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:05,480
But then it also makes sense
with what Lucifer tells Eve.

1223
01:14:05,840 --> 01:14:08,600
Right.
Here's this fruit.

1224
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:10,760
I'm not allowed to eat that.
Why not?

1225
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:14,000
This is how Father gained his
knowledge, right?

1226
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:17,000
He puts Elohim in the.
Position of an Adam?

1227
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:21,600
Absolutely, Absolutely.
There are.

1228
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:25,480
And, and look, this has been my
contention for a number of

1229
01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:27,920
years.
Why are there so many temple

1230
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:31,240
changes in the LDS church?
They're still trying to get rid

1231
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:33,480
of the Adam God doctrine.
So that was one of the points I

1232
01:14:33,480 --> 01:14:36,920
wanted to get to as soon as they
got rid of the Adam God

1233
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:39,720
doctrine.
It's an uncontrollable spiral of

1234
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:41,880
changes.
Well, and, and it's not hard to

1235
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,800
figure out, right?
I mean, look, I do believe that

1236
01:14:44,800 --> 01:14:48,360
there are there, there is kind
of divinity in that, right?

1237
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:51,520
In that when you reject
something of God, he's going to

1238
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:55,600
take back more than just what
you're rejecting.

1239
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:59,320
It's anything that's associated
with that, But from a more more

1240
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:04,200
from a far more practical
standpoint, the temple is a

1241
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:06,080
narrative.
Right.

1242
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:12,280
Well, if you get rid of part of
the story, you now are chasing

1243
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:15,440
that forever, right?
You're now like, oh, well, now

1244
01:15:15,440 --> 01:15:17,720
that we got rid of this, this
part doesn't make any sense

1245
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:18,400
either.
It's true.

1246
01:15:18,560 --> 01:15:20,120
So we got to get rid of that,
right?

1247
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:24,200
And it they, and from my
earliest temple experience, my

1248
01:15:24,200 --> 01:15:28,920
very first temple experience, I
walked out of the Boise, ID

1249
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:30,920
temple going.
That was awesome.

1250
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,640
Same.
But it also felt disjointed.

1251
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:38,080
There's one moment there where
Lucifer's talking to Peter,

1252
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:42,400
James and John, and he addresses
a congregation that's not there

1253
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:44,920
anymore.
There's that leftover part from

1254
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:47,480
where the preacher used to be.
You know, how is this teaching

1255
01:15:47,480 --> 01:15:49,600
received?
Very well, except for This man

1256
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:52,560
does not believe, because it was
supposed to portray that whole

1257
01:15:52,560 --> 01:15:56,280
thing with a preacher and a
congregation singing a hymn, and

1258
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,880
that they accepted the message.
But Adam was defiant against

1259
01:15:59,960 --> 01:16:01,840
receiving false messengers,
right?

1260
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:03,680
Yep, that was still in there
when I went.

1261
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:08,440
Through me too in 2015 Yep, my
understanding is it's gone now

1262
01:16:09,440 --> 01:16:13,280
but that's why we're seeing so
many changes to the endowment

1263
01:16:13,280 --> 01:16:16,720
proper, right?
Because they have made changes

1264
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:21,560
and to keep a constant
narrative, they gotta go make

1265
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:23,720
more changes.
Well, then they make those

1266
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:27,240
changes and Oh well, crap, look,
it affects this down the line.

1267
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:29,480
So we got to go make some
changes here.

1268
01:16:29,840 --> 01:16:32,560
And so it's like a dog chasing
its own tail.

1269
01:16:32,560 --> 01:16:35,240
It's never going to catch it,
but it's going to do some damage

1270
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:37,760
along the way.
Yep.

1271
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:46,200
So you can't just start taking
whole cloth things out whether

1272
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:49,880
you like them or not, right?
And look, I get it, people

1273
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:54,760
struggle with this, especially
the atom God dog, because it is

1274
01:16:54,760 --> 01:17:05,040
upsetting deity as it has been
described to you that is

1275
01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:07,840
uncomfortable.
I understand that right?

1276
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:10,520
It, it really wasn't super
uncomfortable for me because I

1277
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:14,240
did it once before, right?
So it didn't spook me as bad

1278
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:15,560
this time around.
Sure.

1279
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:20,200
But nonetheless, it is.
It is jarring, is disconcerting,

1280
01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:25,160
but then there's other questions
that go into Adam God that

1281
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:27,120
people really struggle with,
right?

1282
01:17:27,120 --> 01:17:33,320
Like, well, does does that mean
God had sex with one of his own

1283
01:17:33,320 --> 01:17:35,920
daughters, right?
I mean, how would you answer

1284
01:17:35,920 --> 01:17:39,160
that?
Yeah, no, that's not an easy

1285
01:17:39,160 --> 01:17:43,120
pill to swallow.
Right, right now, I've heard

1286
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:45,320
some pretty interesting things
on that, right?

1287
01:17:45,320 --> 01:17:49,320
Things that are quite frankly,
speculation.

1288
01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:52,920
But nonetheless, if you go
investigate those things, I

1289
01:17:52,920 --> 01:17:55,160
think people will find good
answers to them.

1290
01:17:55,360 --> 01:18:00,080
Sure.
However, when you just start

1291
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:02,960
getting rid of this stuff, and I
know that it doesn't make sense

1292
01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:06,240
on the surface, right?
When I approached Adam, God, I

1293
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:09,680
tried hard.
I tried to make it make sense

1294
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,720
here.
First up up in my head, right in

1295
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:15,600
my brain.
I tried to make sense of it and

1296
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,920
it didn't work.
Yes, I remember that too, but

1297
01:18:18,920 --> 01:18:21,800
nonetheless.
It's hard for me to get around

1298
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:23,720
Brigham's words.
And then when you dive into the

1299
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:28,720
women of Mormendom and you see
Joseph talking about this to his

1300
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:32,840
wives, there's something here,
right?

1301
01:18:33,440 --> 01:18:35,840
And so I remember I said, OK,
you know what?

1302
01:18:38,000 --> 01:18:39,600
Maybe it just won't make sense
to me.

1303
01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:42,680
Let's just take this to God,
pray about it and find out,

1304
01:18:43,480 --> 01:18:46,280
right?
He's always answered me to this

1305
01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:48,200
point on these kind of important
details.

1306
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:50,320
I'm sure He'll answer me on
these, on this.

1307
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:54,680
Well, I got up and there was no
miraculous vision or anything

1308
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:57,640
else, but I definitely gained a
testimony of it.

1309
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:01,200
OK.
Now the interesting thing is, is

1310
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:06,400
that once I gained a testimony
of it, then the knowledge that I

1311
01:19:06,400 --> 01:19:11,040
wanted to make it all make sense
started to just drop into place.

1312
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:13,960
Sure.
My experience is kind of similar

1313
01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:16,400
to that.
I learned about it when I read

1314
01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:20,560
the CES Letter as a 17 year old,
and I was kind of blown away,

1315
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,560
you know, especially in light of
being taught a prophet can never

1316
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:27,800
leave the church astray.
How can Brigham, you know, teach

1317
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:31,240
something that's so different
than what I grew up hearing in

1318
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:33,640
the LDS church?
And I threw me.

1319
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:36,560
Right, right.
Now, to be honest, at that point

1320
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:38,440
I was looking to be thrown.
Actually I was.

1321
01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:41,800
I didn't really, but that
actually blew my mind and I was

1322
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:44,080
like, it's in the hole.
I can walk away.

1323
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:50,400
Right.
And when I eventually came back

1324
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:56,160
to the gospel and wanted a
testimony, I had to wrestle with

1325
01:19:56,160 --> 01:19:59,840
Adam, God now, because I knew of
it and I can never put it down.

1326
01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:04,280
And I thought about it and
thought about it, studied it

1327
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:06,840
from the Scriptures, and I never
came to any conclusions on it

1328
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:11,640
from the Scriptures.
But I saw it in the temple.

1329
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:16,160
And I remember seeing that.
Once you know Adam, God and then

1330
01:20:16,160 --> 01:20:19,480
you go to the temple, I would
wager even today things are

1331
01:20:19,480 --> 01:20:21,160
going to pop out there and
scream at you.

1332
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:25,760
And I remember thinking to
myself, but it makes so much

1333
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:31,960
sense, you know, it makes so
much sense, but I don't see how

1334
01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:36,080
it can be true.
And then I then I found that the

1335
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:38,800
teachings of the Prophet Joseph
Smith and I read page 157

1336
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:43,200
through 161 more Adam, Adam,
theistic type stuff, right?

1337
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:47,120
And that's gnawing at me.
And it still, it seemed like

1338
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:49,680
there was a complete
reconciliation, but then I got a

1339
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:52,560
testimony of it and I felt very
similar.

1340
01:20:52,560 --> 01:20:58,960
I don't logically understand
this, but I will, I will strive

1341
01:20:58,960 --> 01:21:00,720
to.
And I believe that this is true

1342
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:05,200
and it has come into place over
time.

1343
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:06,440
Right.
Right.

1344
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,320
Interestingly enough, though,
Orson Heights said something

1345
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:13,760
along the lines of, you know,
when teaching on this idea, he

1346
01:21:13,760 --> 01:21:17,000
didn't.
Anyway, he said if you don't

1347
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:20,040
believe God is the literal
father or grandfather of your

1348
01:21:20,040 --> 01:21:23,400
body as well as your spirit,
it's because you have none of

1349
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:24,960
the blood of Christ in your
veins.

1350
01:21:26,960 --> 01:21:29,280
That's that's that's a pretty
bold statement.

1351
01:21:29,480 --> 01:21:32,000
It is.
Wow, Holy cow.

1352
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:36,080
You know, the other thing that I
hear a lot about the Adam God

1353
01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:39,760
doctrine is, well, it just
doesn't make sense, right?

1354
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:42,400
I can't wrap my mind around it.
And it was like I just said, you

1355
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:47,760
and I were both there.
However, just because something

1356
01:21:47,760 --> 01:21:49,640
doesn't make sense doesn't mean
it's not true.

1357
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:52,000
That's true.
I agree with you.

1358
01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:57,040
I know nothing about the laws of
nuclear thermal dynamics.

1359
01:21:57,360 --> 01:22:01,640
However, those two bombs we
dropped on Japan, that tells me

1360
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:04,920
those are true principles.
They're true whether I

1361
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:07,560
understand them or not.
So there's another testimony

1362
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:11,720
too, from Benjamin F Johnson
that's pretty slept on, I think,

1363
01:22:11,720 --> 01:22:15,040
where he says in his he wrote a
letter to the First Presidency

1364
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:18,040
right before he died.
And he says Joseph Smith taught

1365
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:21,520
us that God was the father of
all human procreation, and he

1366
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:23,680
was both the father of our
spirits and our bodies.

1367
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:29,680
Right, right.
There's just the evidence that

1368
01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:33,320
Joseph taught this is
overwhelming at this point.

1369
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:36,480
And there's no way you can you
can just get through it.

1370
01:22:36,480 --> 01:22:39,560
And I have said if you want to,
if you want to do away with

1371
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:44,200
Adam, God, you do kind of have
to crawl over the the graves of

1372
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:47,040
some of the best blood the
church had in those early days

1373
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:48,720
to get there.
It's true.

1374
01:22:50,240 --> 01:22:55,880
So when we look at other groups,
right, like Harmstein's group,

1375
01:22:56,480 --> 01:22:58,240
yes.
Did he, did he mess with the

1376
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:01,200
Adam God doctrine at all?
He he did, as far as I know, you

1377
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:03,760
know, I didn't have time to go
into this particularly and, and,

1378
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:09,120
you know, really look at it
today, but I remember hearing.

1379
01:23:10,440 --> 01:23:13,360
So for those who don't know and
those who do know, you already

1380
01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:16,360
know the Harmstein believed in
something called multiple.

1381
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:19,480
Mortal probations explain what
that is to those who won't be

1382
01:23:19,480 --> 01:23:23,720
listening.
So multiple mortal probations is

1383
01:23:23,720 --> 01:23:31,000
the idea that after you, after
this life, maybe you're

1384
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:35,360
glorified or maybe you're not,
but to get more glory or to have

1385
01:23:35,360 --> 01:23:37,880
another shot at it, you're going
to come back down to an Earth,

1386
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:42,360
be born again mortally, and go
through a probation and become

1387
01:23:42,360 --> 01:23:46,840
more perfect, right?
Right, get another crack at it.

1388
01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:50,560
Get another crack at it.
And so Harmsten, to my

1389
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:54,040
knowledge, believed he was the
reincarnated Joseph Smith.

1390
01:23:54,440 --> 01:23:59,240
Oh yeah, Jesus Christ and Adam.
Yep, I had one of the last

1391
01:23:59,240 --> 01:24:03,720
members of the TLC group on this
podcast and he said that much

1392
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,040
that he'd claimed to be the the
resurrected Joseph.

1393
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:08,840
Smith, I think he also not.
Resurrected but reincarnated.

1394
01:24:08,840 --> 01:24:11,320
He also claimed, I think I read
something from Christopher

1395
01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:14,920
Layton's website or something
along these lines where he where

1396
01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:18,880
Harmstone had claimed also to be
Joseph in Egypt because like his

1397
01:24:18,880 --> 01:24:21,680
brothers are worshiping him in
the dream that he has, right?

1398
01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:25,200
And so like, how do you get
around that when you're always

1399
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:27,160
supposed to worship God, right?
Right.

1400
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:33,560
So yeah, this is so it's really
wacky.

1401
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:36,240
And I don't think that this
format of multiple mortal

1402
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:39,880
probations fits at all with the
temple structure that Joseph

1403
01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:43,280
Smith reveals.
And you see that Joe, that

1404
01:24:43,280 --> 01:24:49,920
Harmstein inserts that this
elements into his group and it's

1405
01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:52,320
completely self destructed.
I mean, I don't know what else

1406
01:24:52,320 --> 01:24:57,960
was going on there, right?
I heard funny stories of several

1407
01:24:57,960 --> 01:24:59,400
things.
But I have too.

1408
01:24:59,480 --> 01:25:01,160
I have and and look was there,
was there.

1409
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:03,480
Abuse going on in that one.
I.

1410
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:07,400
I don't recall off the top of my
head if there's any sexual abuse

1411
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:09,120
or things like that.
I'm going to leave that one

1412
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:11,000
alone because I don't know for
certain.

1413
01:25:11,240 --> 01:25:15,520
I I think I know, but I don't
want to say something that could

1414
01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:18,320
despair somebody else without
for sure knowledge.

1415
01:25:18,320 --> 01:25:20,840
Gotcha.
The one story I did here first

1416
01:25:20,840 --> 01:25:27,240
hand was there was a woman who
was seeking an audience with

1417
01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:34,440
Christ a a whole like and and
went and asked her leaders what

1418
01:25:34,440 --> 01:25:39,280
do I need to do?
And they basically said, well,

1419
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:43,640
you know that Scripture in the
New Testament where give

1420
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:47,600
everything to the poor, follow
me and you'll have eternal life?

1421
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:49,800
Well, that's what you need to
do.

1422
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:51,600
Only don't give it to the poor.
Give it to me.

1423
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:54,640
I'll make sure it gets to the
poor, meaning Harmstone.

1424
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:57,680
And then you'll see Christ.
She does it.

1425
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:01,840
She does it.
And they say, OK, your

1426
01:26:01,840 --> 01:26:06,000
appointment's set.
And it's terrible.

1427
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:09,800
He stands up and he goes here I
am, right?

1428
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:14,280
So maybe not sexual abuse that I
can, I would be willing to talk

1429
01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:20,560
about right here, right now, but
certainly abuse, right?

1430
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:25,040
No, no, no, that's crazy.
So they started out as like a

1431
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:29,560
prayer circle type group, right?
Study group, prayer circle and

1432
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:33,040
then turn into a, you know, a
religion, a religion.

1433
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:35,000
And they're not even really
fundamentalist.

1434
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:37,680
I wouldn't even say I'm, I'm
just going to say that I'll take

1435
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:39,720
responsibility for that, OK?
Explain that because.

1436
01:26:40,360 --> 01:26:45,920
Well, I think it's weird,
fundamentalistic perhaps, but

1437
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:50,360
they don't come from the the
milieu origins of Lorne Wooley

1438
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:52,240
with Lebaris.
That's kind of where I would be

1439
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:55,400
fundamentalists.
So technically speaking, and I

1440
01:26:55,400 --> 01:26:58,760
don't know if like the Foster's
coming through, Ogden, Ogden

1441
01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:06,320
Kraut perhaps, but you have
people that interact with us

1442
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:10,440
because we're all fans of
polygamy or similar things, but

1443
01:27:10,440 --> 01:27:12,520
they don't have the same origins
or priest claims.

1444
01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:15,280
And so like, are you really?
Are we really the same on

1445
01:27:15,280 --> 01:27:16,320
certain levels?
Right.

1446
01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:20,520
I'm not trying to shoot shots,
but at the same time like my

1447
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:22,800
scholarly brain wants to
disambiguate.

1448
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:24,240
Right, right.
You know.

1449
01:27:24,320 --> 01:27:28,040
So Harmstein's aren't really
fundamentalist in the true

1450
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:32,240
sense, they're fundamentalistic.
There's some doctrines that are

1451
01:27:32,240 --> 01:27:33,960
fundamentalist at Jason.
Right.

1452
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:36,760
And that's even better because
when you start inserting those

1453
01:27:36,760 --> 01:27:39,040
things like multiple moral
probations, that's not

1454
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:41,480
fundamentalist.
That's not what Joseph taught, I

1455
01:27:41,480 --> 01:27:44,520
don't think.
I think he speculated on it.

1456
01:27:45,480 --> 01:27:48,160
I could go off on that.
You know, there's statements

1457
01:27:48,160 --> 01:27:52,320
that have been recorded that
allude to certain similar themes

1458
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:54,360
and that's where they get the
ammo for it to support it,

1459
01:27:54,360 --> 01:27:55,200
right?
I think he was.

1460
01:27:56,560 --> 01:27:59,160
I think Joseph was speculating a
lot after dealing with like

1461
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:01,960
Jewish Kabbalah and stuff like
Jewish mysticism.

1462
01:28:01,960 --> 01:28:03,680
And I have no problem with that.
I love reading.

1463
01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:06,480
Well, look, and I love looking
at all that old stuff.

1464
01:28:07,920 --> 01:28:11,960
There's an interesting book that
I read about America once.

1465
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:16,560
It's fairly well known.
It's called the spied de

1466
01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:17,840
Tocqueville.
What was de Tocqueville?

1467
01:28:17,840 --> 01:28:20,240
The name of that book about
America?

1468
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:23,280
Oh, I'm Briana Blank because
it's going to drive me this

1469
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:25,320
anyway.
Same one where he talks about

1470
01:28:25,320 --> 01:28:32,840
what makes America great.
And he, you know, he said he he

1471
01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:36,160
does do says something that's
very interesting.

1472
01:28:36,160 --> 01:28:41,080
He says when you go to the
Taverns in America, there's two

1473
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:45,400
things that are being talked
about always politics and

1474
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:53,600
religion, right?
And when we don't talk about

1475
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:56,080
those things enough anymore,
right?

1476
01:28:56,480 --> 01:29:02,800
And so part of that tradition is
theologizing, right?

1477
01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:08,560
Talking about what could be, not
necessarily what it absolutely

1478
01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:11,880
is, but what it could be, right?
I think a classic example of

1479
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:17,200
this from a Mormon standpoint
is, well, there's probably men

1480
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:21,480
on the sun that are 7 feet tall
that wear they're dressed like

1481
01:29:21,480 --> 01:29:22,720
Quakers, right?
Right.

1482
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,960
No, sure.
Those are ideas now we laughed

1483
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:31,200
at today, but that's because we
have a lot more worldly

1484
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:33,640
knowledge science back in the
South.

1485
01:29:34,480 --> 01:29:37,360
Right.
But in the absence of that,

1486
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:40,560
people just threw ideas around
and there was nothing wrong with

1487
01:29:40,560 --> 01:29:44,840
that, right?
I think, I think you got to give

1488
01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:48,440
props where they're due, right?
This whole thing is, this whole

1489
01:29:48,440 --> 01:29:52,600
Mormon thing is based off of of
that kind of speculation.

1490
01:29:52,600 --> 01:29:54,720
Yeah, there's, but there's also
conflicting stuff too.

1491
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:57,040
I don't want to unless you want
to go down that rabbit hole.

1492
01:29:57,040 --> 01:30:01,200
But there's like opposing models
for where the 10 tribes are,

1493
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:03,880
Right, Right.
You have like the exoplanet

1494
01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:05,080
model.
Yep.

1495
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:09,000
And you have the inner Earth
kettle bell, Right, Kettle, you

1496
01:30:09,080 --> 01:30:10,040
know.
Yeah.

1497
01:30:10,480 --> 01:30:15,120
The kettle model where there's a
hollow earth, Right.

1498
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:17,000
Right.
And that the the 10 tribes are

1499
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:18,480
there and they'll be let out.
Yeah.

1500
01:30:18,480 --> 01:30:21,040
And people say Joseph Smith said
that, but they all, they also

1501
01:30:21,040 --> 01:30:25,040
say that Joseph Smith said that
they were removed, like the city

1502
01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:27,280
of Enoch and that they'll be
joined back to the sphere.

1503
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:30,080
Right.
And I was talking to Sean at one

1504
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:32,720
point years ago.
Or shout out Sean Anderson.

1505
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:37,240
Yeah, where you're talking about
how and burdens on him for this

1506
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:39,320
one because I don't know if I
ever found anything on this, but

1507
01:30:39,320 --> 01:30:44,680
there's been scientific
postulation on a kettlebell

1508
01:30:44,680 --> 01:30:51,200
planet, which is like 2 you
know, or a dumbbell planet, but

1509
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:52,600
is what I'm thinking where you
have.

1510
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:55,240
Two halves and two.
Yeah, like a dumbbell that you

1511
01:30:55,240 --> 01:30:57,760
lift weights with, but you have
the, you know, but it's the

1512
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:01,320
bridge between the ends of the
weight is like the atmosphere or

1513
01:31:01,320 --> 01:31:07,320
they're so close that they just
kind of, you know, are locked in

1514
01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:12,480
a, in a tide with each other.
And if I'm misrepresenting him,

1515
01:31:12,480 --> 01:31:14,400
I apologize, but that's what I
seem to remember.

1516
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:17,840
Sean, the burden of proof is on
you now, big guy.

1517
01:31:19,480 --> 01:31:21,600
So interesting stuff, right?
Don't know.

1518
01:31:22,000 --> 01:31:25,120
Like you say, I know nothing
about thermonuclear physics.

1519
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:28,000
Right.
I know nothing about any of

1520
01:31:28,000 --> 01:31:31,480
that.
I I like the more esoteric

1521
01:31:31,480 --> 01:31:34,120
stuff.
Right, right.

1522
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:38,840
No, it, it's so I, I don't
necessarily see anything wrong

1523
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:41,680
with, hey, what about this idea,
right?

1524
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:45,160
I think, I think that's a gift
of Mormonism, right?

1525
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:48,840
I think there's really 2
tradition, 2 traditions that

1526
01:31:48,840 --> 01:31:51,800
really encourage that.
One is Judaism and the next is

1527
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:55,840
Mormonism, right?
This idea of expanding your

1528
01:31:55,840 --> 01:31:58,240
mind, letting it, letting it
come through.

1529
01:31:59,160 --> 01:32:01,800
I think that that that's a gift
we have.

1530
01:32:01,800 --> 01:32:06,400
The the the trick is, is not to
let ideas become doctrine.

1531
01:32:09,160 --> 01:32:11,040
That's true.
Right you people like to get

1532
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:14,040
like 1 doctrine and then like
they they hobby horse it and

1533
01:32:14,040 --> 01:32:15,320
then they start to do everything
else.

1534
01:32:15,320 --> 01:32:18,600
Through around it, yeah.
And that's not a healthy way,

1535
01:32:18,640 --> 01:32:22,360
right.
The other thing I've said, there

1536
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:28,400
are things that I know and that
I believe 100% Everything else

1537
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:29,440
is an idea.
Yep.

1538
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:33,960
And why is that?
Well because if you espouse

1539
01:32:33,960 --> 01:32:39,200
something that's just an idea as
part of your core makeup, and

1540
01:32:39,200 --> 01:32:43,280
then it's later proven that that
idea is wrong, you're no longer

1541
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:44,400
flexible.
Right?

1542
01:32:44,400 --> 01:32:48,520
I don't look at someone changing
their mind as waffling.

1543
01:32:49,120 --> 01:32:53,960
I look at it as dude got new
information and then postulated

1544
01:32:54,040 --> 01:32:58,080
a new theory based off of that
information.

1545
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:00,240
It's not wrong.
That's being a human being.

1546
01:33:02,160 --> 01:33:10,840
However, I do want to say this,
when things have been proven to

1547
01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:17,480
be historical in nature,
doctrinally sound, I do think

1548
01:33:17,480 --> 01:33:19,880
there's danger when you start
tossing those things off to the

1549
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:24,200
side, sure, in favor of
something else that feels better

1550
01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:29,680
to you.
So that was that was the TLC.

1551
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:33,360
What about like the Crossfield
group?

1552
01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:35,800
That one is interesting.
You know, I don't know what

1553
01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:37,720
their thoughts on Adam.
God, I didn't look into that.

1554
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:38,840
OK.
Do you know anything?

1555
01:33:39,280 --> 01:33:40,960
I don't.
I do know.

1556
01:33:41,440 --> 01:33:43,320
I think they did mess with the
Godhead.

1557
01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:47,240
Some got away from a more
traditional Adam God model.

1558
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:49,000
What they went to I don't know,
but.

1559
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:51,120
Yes, I do.
I'm sorry, I was blank.

1560
01:33:51,320 --> 01:33:54,000
Go ahead.
They actually I'm not super

1561
01:33:54,000 --> 01:33:56,200
against this like I could break
bread with someone who thought

1562
01:33:56,200 --> 01:33:58,440
about this on a certain like who
believed this on a certain

1563
01:33:58,440 --> 01:34:04,080
level.
Their thing was see of Elohim,

1564
01:34:04,080 --> 01:34:08,560
Jehovah and Michael.
They're all gods and father Adam

1565
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:12,520
comes down and he is a
resurrected being.

1566
01:34:12,520 --> 01:34:16,640
He takes Eve, one of his wives
and he starts the human family.

1567
01:34:17,880 --> 01:34:21,080
They think and believe that
Jesus Christ Spirit is the first

1568
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:27,240
born son of Adam's family, but
the physical father of Jesus

1569
01:34:27,240 --> 01:34:30,320
Christ is Jehovah of the
endowment.

1570
01:34:30,920 --> 01:34:34,080
OK.
But again, kind of messes.

1571
01:34:34,080 --> 01:34:39,520
With it does mess with it.
Because you're now ascribing

1572
01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:41,400
something.
And my contention is, is that.

1573
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:47,080
Well, I actually see why they
went that way from a scriptural

1574
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:49,720
point of view, kind of.
OK, go ahead, illuminate me on

1575
01:34:49,720 --> 01:34:50,960
that.
I don't want to steal.

1576
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:52,240
I don't want to steal your
Thunder.

1577
01:34:52,240 --> 01:34:54,480
But this is actually kind of
like the closest approximation

1578
01:34:55,000 --> 01:35:01,360
of a heretical view of the atom
God doctrine, but it comes at a

1579
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:07,040
really close look of and like a
tight look of like the

1580
01:35:07,040 --> 01:35:10,560
scriptures and trying to
reconcile with the scriptures.

1581
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:12,840
The.
Canon.

1582
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:16,960
Thank you.
Reconcile with the Canon the the

1583
01:35:16,960 --> 01:35:23,560
fact that you have scriptures
verses in like Acts where Peter

1584
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:28,520
says that Jesus Christ was the
Son of the Lord.

1585
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:31,360
Right.
And we know that the Lord was

1586
01:35:31,440 --> 01:35:34,680
Jehovah, right, as far as in the
Hebrew language, right?

1587
01:35:34,840 --> 01:35:36,520
And they take that very
literally.

1588
01:35:37,040 --> 01:35:41,800
So, you know, and, and what name
does the, the Lord go by in the

1589
01:35:41,800 --> 01:35:43,120
Old Testament?
Jehovah.

1590
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:49,960
And then, but there's, there's a
lot in New Testament too that is

1591
01:35:49,960 --> 01:35:51,320
interesting.
And we have people throw this

1592
01:35:51,320 --> 01:35:55,400
back on us on the mission field
because as LBS people, we assert

1593
01:35:55,400 --> 01:35:58,440
Jesus as Jehovah.
And when they learn about that,

1594
01:35:58,440 --> 01:36:02,680
they're like, no, Jesus is the
son of Jehovah, like Jehovah's

1595
01:36:02,680 --> 01:36:04,320
Witnesses believed, right?
Yep.

1596
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:08,160
You know, there's actually quite
a bit of evidence like Psalms,

1597
01:36:10,200 --> 01:36:15,480
my Lord said to the, you know,
sit down on my right hand,

1598
01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:17,960
right?
Because Jehovah says to Christ,

1599
01:36:18,120 --> 01:36:23,640
sit on my right hand, not El or
Elohim saying to Jehovah, you

1600
01:36:23,640 --> 01:36:26,760
know, but as Jehovah saying yeah
to his Son.

1601
01:36:26,800 --> 01:36:30,640
Right, Right.
So from a tight look at the

1602
01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:33,240
Canon, I see where they want
that.

1603
01:36:33,280 --> 01:36:35,320
Explain.
What you mean by a tight look at

1604
01:36:35,320 --> 01:36:38,680
the Canon?
Not being flexible with the name

1605
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:42,280
Jehovah because I read it and
when I look at that like, yeah,

1606
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:45,160
it does say that, but I also
know that.

1607
01:36:45,400 --> 01:36:49,240
Jehovah is a title.
It's a name like Brigham Young

1608
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:55,000
said something in 1870 or so
actually I think it was 65.

1609
01:36:55,120 --> 01:37:00,440
He says God, let us start with
the Father of our Lord Jesus

1610
01:37:00,440 --> 01:37:04,880
Christ.
He is known by one name and one

1611
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:08,920
title today and another name and
title by another people on

1612
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:12,160
another day and there he leaves
it.

1613
01:37:12,880 --> 01:37:16,360
And if I were to tell you all
that I know you know regarding

1614
01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:18,400
this you and you know just goes
on.

1615
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:22,800
But when you hear Father Michael
blow his trumpet and raise your

1616
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:25,920
bodies out of the graves, then
you'll be satisfied that he can

1617
01:37:25,920 --> 01:37:27,640
bless you with the blessings of
eternal life.

1618
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:29,200
You know, that's how he who.
Who said that?

1619
01:37:29,200 --> 01:37:30,440
That's Brigham.
That's Brick.

1620
01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:36,120
Yeah.
And so he kind of leaves it

1621
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:39,240
there like that, Joho.
And so linguistically I'm like,

1622
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:42,360
and historically I look at the
fact that Hebrews existed for

1623
01:37:42,360 --> 01:37:46,880
like 1000 years of before, you
know, 1000 BC tops, right?

1624
01:37:47,040 --> 01:37:49,480
And so, OK, God's existed a lot
longer than that.

1625
01:37:49,480 --> 01:37:51,440
So what do they call them before
they called them Jehovah?

1626
01:37:51,840 --> 01:37:53,960
Right.
Yeah, so they wrote the

1627
01:37:53,960 --> 01:37:55,760
scriptures down and they gave
them the name Jehovah.

1628
01:37:55,760 --> 01:37:58,880
Also the Documentary Hypothesis
is interesting too because you

1629
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:03,000
have the idea that our Old
Testament Canon is compiled from

1630
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:06,280
different documents.
Like when the Kingdom of Israel

1631
01:38:06,280 --> 01:38:09,800
was destroyed by Assyria and the
refugees go down to Judah.

1632
01:38:10,400 --> 01:38:14,200
And they have differing
scriptures like let's let's

1633
01:38:14,400 --> 01:38:18,320
pontificate and say maybe the
brass plates that Nephi stole

1634
01:38:18,480 --> 01:38:22,760
were the northern tribes version
passed down through Joseph's

1635
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:28,000
family.
Yep, on brass plates and and

1636
01:38:28,000 --> 01:38:29,480
that's why God wanted them
preserved.

1637
01:38:29,480 --> 01:38:32,720
And some of our scholars have
said that the Book of Mormon

1638
01:38:32,720 --> 01:38:38,280
seems to use language that is
more eloistic than than

1639
01:38:39,680 --> 01:38:42,600
Yahuwistic because the the
documents in the documentary

1640
01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:48,360
hypothesis posit that Judah used
the name Yahweh or Jehovah more,

1641
01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:51,600
and the Northern Kingdoms like
to use Elohim.

1642
01:38:52,400 --> 01:38:54,800
Interesting.
And so you merge the narrative

1643
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:57,720
for the nation state that's been
created to have a unified

1644
01:38:57,840 --> 01:39:00,600
theological narrative.
And then you go to Genesis

1645
01:39:00,600 --> 01:39:05,280
chapter 2 and it's you get the
contraction in our King James

1646
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:10,440
capital letters, Lord God, which
is the contraction of Jehovah

1647
01:39:10,680 --> 01:39:12,960
Elohim.
But you go to Genesis 1 and it's

1648
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:17,880
just Elohim all the way.
Through SO, maybe a more easy to

1649
01:39:17,880 --> 01:39:24,840
use English translation would be
Lord and God for Elohim and

1650
01:39:24,840 --> 01:39:27,160
Jehovah.
Yeah, or I mean, but they

1651
01:39:27,280 --> 01:39:32,200
they're they're just using a
contraction of the the epithets,

1652
01:39:32,200 --> 01:39:34,120
right.
But like, it seems like it's

1653
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:36,520
actually the combination of two
traditions where they use

1654
01:39:36,520 --> 01:39:39,560
different names for God.
OK, interesting.

1655
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:41,840
OK.
And so when I look at it that

1656
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:45,800
way, that Jehovah is just a
name, one tribe used for God and

1657
01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:48,000
Elohim was a name for another
tribe, but it's actually the

1658
01:39:48,000 --> 01:39:50,640
same God, right?
Right.

1659
01:39:50,640 --> 01:39:52,800
It starts to take on a different
year.

1660
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:55,560
I'm now very flexible.
And then I say, well, how does

1661
01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:57,320
that work?
And I asked myself this, well,

1662
01:39:57,320 --> 01:39:59,320
how does that work with the
endowment that the endowments

1663
01:39:59,320 --> 01:40:01,080
portraying Jehovah and Elohim
differently?

1664
01:40:01,440 --> 01:40:05,960
Can I say Joseph Smith learned
Hebrew and he's trying to

1665
01:40:05,960 --> 01:40:11,880
portray an idea and so he gloms
on to the names he knows in

1666
01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:15,360
Hebrew to personify a
metaphysical structure to

1667
01:40:15,360 --> 01:40:18,840
illustrate what reality is.
And Jehovah and Elohim are way

1668
01:40:18,840 --> 01:40:21,160
better than inserting other
Hebrew names he would have used

1669
01:40:21,160 --> 01:40:27,240
like El Shaddai, El Lion, El
Olam, which is Eternal God.

1670
01:40:27,960 --> 01:40:33,720
El Shaddai is God Almighty.
El Elion is the most high God.

1671
01:40:33,720 --> 01:40:38,880
So anytime you see that in those
phrases in the Scriptures,

1672
01:40:38,880 --> 01:40:41,480
that's the Hebrew translation.
It's all the same God with

1673
01:40:41,480 --> 01:40:45,520
different names, right, Right.
Joseph uses, it takes Jehovah

1674
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:49,000
and it takes Elohim, applies
them to different characters to

1675
01:40:49,000 --> 01:40:55,040
illustrate a framework that we
need to understand, which is we

1676
01:40:55,040 --> 01:40:57,280
are connected.
We're because we're personifying

1677
01:40:57,280 --> 01:41:01,600
Adam, we're connected to a
genealogy of gods, right, a

1678
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:08,800
divine counsel of gods.
And that looking at it as being

1679
01:41:09,080 --> 01:41:13,960
a future tense instead of past
tense, that OK, let's say Jesus

1680
01:41:13,960 --> 01:41:17,520
is Jehovah, but we're the Adam
and so he can occupy that

1681
01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:21,360
mediation between us, right?
But we're still the father of

1682
01:41:21,360 --> 01:41:25,600
our posterity.
We're still the God, and we will

1683
01:41:25,600 --> 01:41:30,280
have to institute a program that
redeems our children, and that

1684
01:41:30,280 --> 01:41:33,920
will not be Jesus Christ.
That will be the only begot from

1685
01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:37,480
our Lloyds, right, Right.
You know.

1686
01:41:37,560 --> 01:41:41,160
The other way I've heard it
described and and I kind of like

1687
01:41:41,160 --> 01:41:46,240
this model harshly because,
well, I'm just not, not at your

1688
01:41:46,240 --> 01:41:49,480
level as far as the research and
that sort of stuff back into

1689
01:41:49,480 --> 01:41:52,640
that stuff, but that they're
offices.

1690
01:41:53,160 --> 01:41:55,600
Yes, right.
And I feel like that cleans it

1691
01:41:55,600 --> 01:41:58,720
up a lot more, right.
So in in the case of Jehovah,

1692
01:41:58,800 --> 01:42:02,520
it's an office like Bishop, you
know, if you're LDS or state

1693
01:42:02,520 --> 01:42:08,240
president or something like
that, to further differentiate

1694
01:42:08,240 --> 01:42:11,840
you'd say Bishop Ness or state
president Ness.

1695
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:14,800
Right.
But it's talking about occupying

1696
01:42:14,800 --> 01:42:21,960
an office, right?
And so it's perfectly within in

1697
01:42:21,960 --> 01:42:26,240
in keeping with the orthodoxy of
the Adam God doctrine to make

1698
01:42:26,240 --> 01:42:31,640
the assumption that yeah, Adam
slash Michael would could be

1699
01:42:31,640 --> 01:42:33,720
called by the title of Jehovah,
right?

1700
01:42:33,720 --> 01:42:36,520
It is an office.
I think that's what you know, I

1701
01:42:36,560 --> 01:42:44,120
think when you go and read the
Old Testament and God says to

1702
01:42:44,120 --> 01:42:47,160
Moses, I am Jehovah, I think it
is Adam, right?

1703
01:42:47,280 --> 01:42:50,160
I do.
Yeah, I do too.

1704
01:42:50,280 --> 01:42:52,080
I.
Yeah, that's just the, you know,

1705
01:42:52,080 --> 01:42:56,000
because like Grigham said, he is
known by one name on one day as

1706
01:42:56,000 --> 01:42:57,400
the cultures progress and
evolve.

1707
01:42:57,520 --> 01:42:59,440
And I'll buy another name on
another.

1708
01:42:59,960 --> 01:43:03,400
And this is because Joseph Smith
was saying you his name is

1709
01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:05,880
Almond, right?
But that's not in the endowment.

1710
01:43:06,160 --> 01:43:10,320
Right, right.
But nonetheless it shows it

1711
01:43:10,320 --> 01:43:13,920
shows the pattern of the Adam
God doctor, it does the pattern.

1712
01:43:14,560 --> 01:43:19,880
And so when we want to just cast
these things off, we're doing

1713
01:43:19,880 --> 01:43:22,520
great disservice to ourselves
and our posterity.

1714
01:43:23,280 --> 01:43:25,440
I think so.
Because what's going to happen,

1715
01:43:25,440 --> 01:43:27,520
right?
We just went through a bunch of

1716
01:43:27,520 --> 01:43:30,880
examples.
Is there any that we missed?

1717
01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:34,280
I'll let you take a look there.
Yeah, there's the FLDS.

1718
01:43:34,680 --> 01:43:37,640
I think we need to talk about
that actually before we go

1719
01:43:37,640 --> 01:43:38,920
there.
Let's talk about that.

1720
01:43:39,000 --> 01:43:40,440
Let's take a break real quick,
yeah?

1721
01:43:40,560 --> 01:43:43,840
Let's take a break.
That's just fine with that.

1722
01:43:43,840 --> 01:43:46,720
All right, So yeah, let's go the
LDS, I mean the FLDS Church.

1723
01:43:46,840 --> 01:43:51,440
So the FLDS seemed to adopt A
very different framework from

1724
01:43:51,440 --> 01:43:54,360
earlier fundamentalist Adam God
teachings, right?

1725
01:43:54,360 --> 01:43:56,880
We're pretty much indebted to
Joseph Musser for the

1726
01:43:56,880 --> 01:43:59,600
preservation of Adam, God and
fundamentalism, it seems.

1727
01:44:02,200 --> 01:44:06,440
And we we discussed his model,
right, that there's a exalted

1728
01:44:06,440 --> 01:44:11,560
Jehovah that was potentially A
savior for past a past world.

1729
01:44:12,160 --> 01:44:14,480
And then there's our Savior,
right, right.

1730
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:16,680
And he's using that title thing,
right, right.

1731
01:44:17,200 --> 01:44:23,560
You know, Jehovah Christ, Jesus
Christ, and that's pretty clear

1732
01:44:23,560 --> 01:44:27,600
from his sermons and stuff.
But then you see, and I want to

1733
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:30,280
be careful how I do this, but
what I have seen is what I've

1734
01:44:30,280 --> 01:44:32,360
seen.
So right, that's what I know.

1735
01:44:32,360 --> 01:44:35,680
So maybe, and I know things can
be changed in books and things

1736
01:44:35,680 --> 01:44:37,240
like that.
For example, I've heard that

1737
01:44:37,240 --> 01:44:39,240
Brother Johnson Leroy Johnson's
books have.

1738
01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:42,000
I've heard from people that his
sermons were changed by Ruling

1739
01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:44,280
Jeff's and Warren.
Would not surprise me.

1740
01:44:44,320 --> 01:44:46,760
You know, but I don't know if
this was part of it or not, but

1741
01:44:46,760 --> 01:44:54,160
what I've seen is that they
started articulating what I kind

1742
01:44:54,160 --> 01:44:58,720
of call a revolve, A revolving
door Godhead thing where and the

1743
01:44:58,720 --> 01:45:00,480
Holy Ghost doesn't factor into
this so much.

1744
01:45:00,480 --> 01:45:05,760
But the idea is, I think it's
kind of interpreted based off of

1745
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:09,520
like ether, where Christ says to
the brother of Jared, I am the

1746
01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:11,680
father and the son.
Right.

1747
01:45:12,520 --> 01:45:14,560
And so Christ says, OK, I'm the
Father and the Son.

1748
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:17,080
Well, how do I make that work?
And Brother Johnson and then

1749
01:45:17,080 --> 01:45:22,680
Brother Jeffs started teaching
how in one world Adam would be

1750
01:45:22,680 --> 01:45:24,120
the Father and Christ would be
the Son.

1751
01:45:24,120 --> 01:45:26,480
And then in the next World,
Christ would be the Father and

1752
01:45:26,480 --> 01:45:28,640
Adam would be the Son.
And it was revolving.

1753
01:45:29,360 --> 01:45:33,520
Or, you know, and that that
explains the mystery of

1754
01:45:33,520 --> 01:45:36,000
godliness, which is I am the
Father and the Son.

1755
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:40,600
And so they're looking through a
little keyhole to that statement

1756
01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:45,560
to reconcile it.
And yeah, I don't know.

1757
01:45:46,200 --> 01:45:52,280
The the thing about that and and
I had on one of Warren's sons,

1758
01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:55,960
Ammon, and he talked about this,
this thing right?

1759
01:45:56,800 --> 01:46:01,760
His his dad's different take on
on the Godhead.

1760
01:46:02,920 --> 01:46:07,920
And one of the things it's ended
up leading to somewhere down the

1761
01:46:07,920 --> 01:46:11,280
road was Warren essentially
saying I've already been

1762
01:46:11,280 --> 01:46:13,520
exalted.
I'm here for you and every time

1763
01:46:13,520 --> 01:46:20,520
you sin, it hurts me right?
And so there, it led to some

1764
01:46:20,520 --> 01:46:23,640
very, very dark things.
So I heard rumors about that.

1765
01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:27,000
The ruling God thing.
Yeah, he talked about that or

1766
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:31,120
call it, didn't call it that,
but that that name, that title

1767
01:46:31,120 --> 01:46:33,680
would I think kind of fit based
off of what he said.

1768
01:46:33,680 --> 01:46:36,760
So yeah, the idea is that like
ruling Jeff's was Adam, right?

1769
01:46:36,800 --> 01:46:39,920
And Warren was Jesus, and Joseph
Smith was the Holy Ghost.

1770
01:46:40,120 --> 01:46:41,240
Right.
Yeah.

1771
01:46:41,720 --> 01:46:44,480
And I'm not sure it was quite
that in depth.

1772
01:46:45,000 --> 01:46:47,520
We didn't go that in depth.
And Ammon, if I get any of this

1773
01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:50,080
wrong, hit me back up later and
I'll do a interaction.

1774
01:46:50,080 --> 01:46:55,240
But so and that at any rate, it
it did go dark there, right,

1775
01:46:55,240 --> 01:46:57,120
with getting rid of that
doctrine rule.

1776
01:46:57,320 --> 01:47:01,920
And I think it all had to do
with supremacy, right?

1777
01:47:02,240 --> 01:47:05,160
And that's the interesting thing
I'm noticing is that as people

1778
01:47:05,160 --> 01:47:09,440
want to distance themselves away
from this doctrine, the question

1779
01:47:09,440 --> 01:47:13,200
is it always comes down to a
question of supremacy, right?

1780
01:47:13,240 --> 01:47:15,200
Yes.
Who is the superior role?

1781
01:47:15,960 --> 01:47:18,240
Now?
I don't like that model that

1782
01:47:18,240 --> 01:47:21,000
that Warren put forward for a
lot of different reasons, but

1783
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:25,040
especially because in some ways
that makes the gods kind of

1784
01:47:25,040 --> 01:47:27,320
sadistic, right?
If everyone's just going to keep

1785
01:47:27,320 --> 01:47:29,960
taking turns on being the
Savior, how many times does

1786
01:47:29,960 --> 01:47:32,680
someone have to die and be
scourged before?

1787
01:47:32,680 --> 01:47:34,960
That's one thing I think about
too.

1788
01:47:35,400 --> 01:47:38,600
It it, it makes the gods into
something that's sadistic,

1789
01:47:38,600 --> 01:47:39,360
right?
It is.

1790
01:47:40,280 --> 01:47:42,440
That's.
Be like Prometheus, having your

1791
01:47:42,440 --> 01:47:45,320
the, you know, Zeus's eagle
eating your liver.

1792
01:47:45,680 --> 01:47:47,600
Create all eternity.
Yes, into a rock.

1793
01:47:47,760 --> 01:47:50,720
Yeah, right.
I get the idea that a sacrifice

1794
01:47:50,720 --> 01:47:54,520
has to be had, right?
But I don't think those are

1795
01:47:54,600 --> 01:47:57,680
meant to be endured by one
person or two people.

1796
01:47:58,280 --> 01:48:01,480
If I was the God, and if I was
the God or forced to, that would

1797
01:48:01,480 --> 01:48:03,920
stop.
Right, right.

1798
01:48:04,600 --> 01:48:06,920
I mean, it's, it's brutal,
right?

1799
01:48:07,560 --> 01:48:12,200
So yeah, the the FLDS one is is
fascinating, especially with the

1800
01:48:12,200 --> 01:48:14,880
turn it took.
Yeah, and you see the complete

1801
01:48:14,880 --> 01:48:17,040
destruction of that people.
Yeah.

1802
01:48:17,640 --> 01:48:20,840
And and The thing is, and and I
think it's a great cautionary

1803
01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:24,040
tale because you unanchor
yourself from that one thing.

1804
01:48:25,960 --> 01:48:28,120
You get rid of the the identity
of God.

1805
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:31,560
You now have Car Blanc to do
whatever it is you want to do

1806
01:48:31,560 --> 01:48:33,080
you.
Do and so it's the Harmstons

1807
01:48:33,080 --> 01:48:35,560
too, though, you know, in a
similar fashion with the with

1808
01:48:35,560 --> 01:48:38,760
the multiple probation, they're
very similar, both the FLDS and

1809
01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:41,200
the Harmstone model and both of
those groups are completely

1810
01:48:41,200 --> 01:48:44,680
extinct practically.
Yeah, Yep, Yep.

1811
01:48:45,440 --> 01:48:50,440
And and that's, and then we go,
like you were saying, into the

1812
01:48:50,440 --> 01:48:54,640
Cutlerites, into the Strangites.
Yeah, it's it's a constant

1813
01:48:54,640 --> 01:48:57,440
pattern.
This they weren't preserving the

1814
01:48:57,440 --> 01:48:59,720
ordinances.
I'll, I'll save that part to the

1815
01:48:59,720 --> 01:49:00,240
end.
OK.

1816
01:49:00,440 --> 01:49:03,440
But but yeah, it's it's brutal.
It gets rough.

1817
01:49:03,440 --> 01:49:08,000
So anything else you want to
talk about as far as the FLDS?

1818
01:49:08,240 --> 01:49:10,920
Not the FLDS.
Let's let's move to the LDS

1819
01:49:10,920 --> 01:49:14,880
Church because we touched on a
little bit, but I feel like this

1820
01:49:14,880 --> 01:49:17,840
is our major case study, quite
frankly, because they've had

1821
01:49:17,840 --> 01:49:22,320
the, well, as far as I can see
it, they, they have enough

1822
01:49:22,320 --> 01:49:25,840
money, they can take the
financial abuse that comes with

1823
01:49:25,920 --> 01:49:28,640
changing some of these things
for, for a lot longer.

1824
01:49:29,040 --> 01:49:32,720
But we'll see how it ends up and
then and at the end.

1825
01:49:32,720 --> 01:49:34,320
Right.
But I do want to talk about

1826
01:49:34,320 --> 01:49:35,920
that, right.
You mentioned you had some stuff

1827
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:38,240
on that as we start seeing the
changes happen.

1828
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:41,680
Well I the first change we know
of is Temple.

1829
01:49:41,680 --> 01:49:43,600
Sir.
Is the Adam God being removed?

1830
01:49:45,160 --> 01:49:48,040
We have the testimony from a
patriarch named Arthur Horn who

1831
01:49:48,040 --> 01:49:53,280
grew up in Saint George, right?
Which by the way, my theory OK

1832
01:49:53,280 --> 01:49:58,600
on Saint George.
I swear I'm not a crackpot, but

1833
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:01,560
here this is my my esoteric.
Language.

1834
01:50:01,760 --> 01:50:03,320
You live in Saint George.
What's not?

1835
01:50:03,680 --> 01:50:06,120
Yeah, no, It's named after
Michael the Archangel.

1836
01:50:07,120 --> 01:50:09,160
What?
Saint George is named after

1837
01:50:09,160 --> 01:50:11,200
Michael the Ark game.
OK, go, go for it.

1838
01:50:11,200 --> 01:50:12,400
I want to hear this.
OK.

1839
01:50:12,800 --> 01:50:15,280
So George and Michael are kind
of far away, right?

1840
01:50:15,280 --> 01:50:20,240
I mean, they are no Saint George
in antiquity was, I think it was

1841
01:50:20,240 --> 01:50:23,920
even a Praetorian guard in Rome
that converted to Christianity.

1842
01:50:23,920 --> 01:50:27,760
And he was one of the martyrs
that he refused to reject his

1843
01:50:27,760 --> 01:50:30,320
new faith.
And he was killed in those days,

1844
01:50:30,320 --> 01:50:35,320
right?
And his legend gets adopted in

1845
01:50:35,320 --> 01:50:38,200
medieval times and he becomes
the patron St. of England.

1846
01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:43,200
OK, and the in other places I
think too.

1847
01:50:43,200 --> 01:50:48,240
Actually, even before England he
becomes a personified as a

1848
01:50:48,440 --> 01:50:52,600
resurrected St. who does battle
against a dragon who's

1849
01:50:52,600 --> 01:50:55,120
terrorizing towns out in my
Egypt.

1850
01:50:55,680 --> 01:50:58,520
Wow.
And stuff like that and.

1851
01:50:59,280 --> 01:51:03,760
Kind of metal.
Yeah, super metal and the, the,

1852
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:07,440
the the dragon demands child
sacrifices and stuff like that.

1853
01:51:07,440 --> 01:51:11,520
And the people are just, they
don't, they're being and they

1854
01:51:11,520 --> 01:51:16,040
just give in and Saint George
says stop doing that or we'll

1855
01:51:16,040 --> 01:51:17,880
slay the dragon.
And if you convert to

1856
01:51:17,880 --> 01:51:21,000
Christianity, right, like except
the gospel and audible slay the

1857
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:27,440
dragon.
Well, the motif of a resurrected

1858
01:51:27,440 --> 01:51:30,360
being kind of sort of and
slaying the dragon, dude, that's

1859
01:51:30,360 --> 01:51:32,280
Michael.
That's Michael the Archangel.

1860
01:51:32,280 --> 01:51:37,440
So I think Brigham Young, who
close to his British roots was

1861
01:51:37,680 --> 01:51:40,760
having, I think that there was
something there because that

1862
01:51:40,760 --> 01:51:43,440
whole thing, that whole you go
back to the crests in England

1863
01:51:43,440 --> 01:51:47,200
and stuff like right, St.
George's cross and the dragon

1864
01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:51,160
symbol and all that.
I think that those two symbols,

1865
01:51:51,160 --> 01:51:54,440
you know, looking at Saint
George and Saint Michael, that's

1866
01:51:54,440 --> 01:51:57,360
the same story, essentially.
They're both dragon slayers.

1867
01:51:57,600 --> 01:51:59,040
Yeah.
They're both fighting against

1868
01:51:59,040 --> 01:52:00,920
the devil because the devil is
the dragon.

1869
01:52:01,520 --> 01:52:03,640
That's right.
That's that's my view of what

1870
01:52:03,640 --> 01:52:05,200
Saint George is.
And then where does he?

1871
01:52:05,840 --> 01:52:09,040
And then with the evidence of
going and building a temple in

1872
01:52:09,040 --> 01:52:11,120
Saint George and.
The first one in the Utah

1873
01:52:11,120 --> 01:52:12,640
period.
The first one in the Utah period

1874
01:52:12,640 --> 01:52:16,760
and making sure the lecture on
the veil was Adam God centric.

1875
01:52:17,480 --> 01:52:20,000
To me that all just fits.
That does favor.

1876
01:52:20,080 --> 01:52:23,040
Holy cow, that is fascinating.
Yeah.

1877
01:52:23,280 --> 01:52:26,440
So that was kind of Brigham low
key flexion a little bit, I

1878
01:52:26,440 --> 01:52:27,560
think so.
I don't know.

1879
01:52:27,560 --> 01:52:29,920
I can't prove it.
I can't prove it.

1880
01:52:29,920 --> 01:52:31,160
I was talking to someone in
there.

1881
01:52:31,160 --> 01:52:33,880
I thought it was named after
George A Smith and like that's

1882
01:52:33,880 --> 01:52:36,720
what Wikipedia says.
But it also like, we're not

1883
01:52:36,760 --> 01:52:41,400
sure, you know, but I'm kind of
thinking it was, well, it was a

1884
01:52:41,400 --> 01:52:43,000
it.
Would kind of be out of theistic

1885
01:52:43,000 --> 01:52:44,880
nod.
It would kind of be weird to

1886
01:52:44,880 --> 01:52:48,320
name it Saint George, right,
because it's we don't even why

1887
01:52:48,320 --> 01:52:53,040
not Georgetown, right, Because
we don't even refer to Joseph

1888
01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:55,600
Smith as St.
Saint Joseph, right?

1889
01:52:55,600 --> 01:52:57,760
We don't we don't refer to
Brigham as St.

1890
01:52:57,760 --> 01:53:01,680
Brigham, right?
So this one dude is going to get

1891
01:53:01,680 --> 01:53:04,200
that moniker.
This.

1892
01:53:04,240 --> 01:53:06,600
One otherwise.
Otherwise, Saint George is like

1893
01:53:06,680 --> 01:53:09,640
it sounds like a Catholic name.
It is does sound like a Catholic

1894
01:53:09,640 --> 01:53:11,040
name.
And to be honest, up until you

1895
01:53:11,040 --> 01:53:13,760
just brought this up, I kind of
wondered if it wasn't an old

1896
01:53:13,760 --> 01:53:14,680
designation.
Right.

1897
01:53:14,680 --> 01:53:18,600
Like Escalante Canyon, Right.
We know that those were named by

1898
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:23,760
by Catholic priests, if I'm not
mistaken, when they were coming

1899
01:53:23,760 --> 01:53:25,080
up.
I didn't know.

1900
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:28,640
Yeah.
And so we we look at that and

1901
01:53:28,640 --> 01:53:32,280
yeah, you would think it would
be Catholic in nature, but

1902
01:53:32,280 --> 01:53:37,040
that's not necessarily the case.
Now that's fascinating, Brigham.

1903
01:53:37,040 --> 01:53:38,720
Low key flexion.
Yeah, he was.

1904
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:42,080
And so, yeah.
So where was I going with that?

1905
01:53:42,600 --> 01:53:45,320
The LDS Church, the.
LDS church changes so Brigham's

1906
01:53:45,320 --> 01:53:50,240
institutes and systematizes the
endowment in 1877 with the with

1907
01:53:50,240 --> 01:53:56,160
the full lecture at the veil
where he declares that Adam is

1908
01:53:56,160 --> 01:54:01,040
the father of Jesus Christ and
that after and that he returned

1909
01:54:01,040 --> 01:54:03,200
to heaven right right.
Went to the world from where he

1910
01:54:03,200 --> 01:54:07,160
came where he came from before
that point.

1911
01:54:07,680 --> 01:54:11,160
There was some debate in the
quorum of the 12th regardless.

1912
01:54:11,360 --> 01:54:14,520
Yeah with Orson and potentially
Amis alignment.

1913
01:54:14,520 --> 01:54:16,440
I'm not I've heard that he
didn't get on board with the

1914
01:54:16,440 --> 01:54:18,920
Adam God doctrine.
I'm not entirely sure about

1915
01:54:18,920 --> 01:54:20,560
that.
Taylor might be the one to ask

1916
01:54:20,560 --> 01:54:22,200
about that considering he's a
descendant.

1917
01:54:22,200 --> 01:54:23,800
Maybe he's done research, I
don't know.

1918
01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:27,920
But there was a meetings where
because Orson Pratt was also

1919
01:54:27,920 --> 01:54:31,120
kind of, he had his own
doctrinal ideas.

1920
01:54:31,720 --> 01:54:33,160
What?
Was his that Brigham Young

1921
01:54:33,160 --> 01:54:34,720
didn't like.
And so he was called on the

1922
01:54:34,720 --> 01:54:37,440
carpet in 1860 to to discuss
some of those.

1923
01:54:37,440 --> 01:54:41,280
And one of them was the whole
the Holy Spirit doctrine where

1924
01:54:43,000 --> 01:54:46,400
Orson Pratt kind of took a
springboard from lectures on

1925
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:50,080
faith and says, I don't really
think the Holy Ghost is a

1926
01:54:50,080 --> 01:54:51,440
person.
OK.

1927
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:54,080
And he kind of used in his
writings.

1928
01:54:54,880 --> 01:54:58,640
Or if he was, you could
illustrate this as being like,

1929
01:54:59,480 --> 01:55:02,120
if you've killed a vessel, like
a water bottle or a milk truck

1930
01:55:02,120 --> 01:55:07,440
with water and you threw it in
the ocean and it's made of the,

1931
01:55:07,440 --> 01:55:10,680
the water in the vessel is the
same substance as the substance

1932
01:55:10,680 --> 01:55:13,400
around the vessel.
And that the Holy Spirit was

1933
01:55:13,400 --> 01:55:17,680
this substance that was diffused
throughout the universe.

1934
01:55:19,000 --> 01:55:21,680
OK, That was kind of his view of
what the Holy Ghost was.

1935
01:55:21,680 --> 01:55:25,360
And so it was not personal
necessarily, but it was a very,

1936
01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:29,280
it was a diffused matter, finer
matter, gotcha that would

1937
01:55:29,920 --> 01:55:31,880
actuate and act upon us.
OK.

1938
01:55:32,080 --> 01:55:34,200
All right.
And and Brigham Young's like

1939
01:55:34,400 --> 01:55:37,480
don't publish that as church
doctrine, right?

1940
01:55:37,480 --> 01:55:46,680
But he published it in the Seer.
And so Brigham's like, OK, well,

1941
01:55:46,680 --> 01:55:49,920
you got to retract this.
And you know, we this has not

1942
01:55:49,920 --> 01:55:53,480
been voted upon by the church.
And he's like Orson Pratt's for

1943
01:55:53,480 --> 01:55:54,760
tortoise.
Well, how about we have Adam,

1944
01:55:54,760 --> 01:55:58,840
God voted upon by the by the
church.

1945
01:55:58,840 --> 01:56:04,880
And Brigham says I won't have it
voted upon by the church, but I

1946
01:56:04,880 --> 01:56:07,760
will submit to you that I will
have it voted upon by elders who

1947
01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:12,280
are endowed.
Interesting, interesting.

1948
01:56:12,280 --> 01:56:13,360
And what year would that have
been?

1949
01:56:13,440 --> 01:56:16,200
1860.
So they haven't built the Saint

1950
01:56:16,200 --> 01:56:19,200
George Temple yet?
No, they're barely into

1951
01:56:20,400 --> 01:56:23,400
Endowment House stuff at this.
Point, you know, seven years of

1952
01:56:23,400 --> 01:56:24,080
Max.
OK.

1953
01:56:24,320 --> 01:56:27,840
So most likely the elders that
have been endowed are most

1954
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:31,200
likely the elders from Nabu,
right?

1955
01:56:31,680 --> 01:56:34,320
I'm not no, there's not
necessarily that have been

1956
01:56:34,320 --> 01:56:38,000
ordained and and or anointed
and, and through this initiated

1957
01:56:38,000 --> 01:56:41,720
through the ceremony in Utah.
But it shows a level of

1958
01:56:41,720 --> 01:56:45,040
confidence that Brigham had that
those who have been through the

1959
01:56:45,040 --> 01:56:49,480
mysteries of godliness would
support it, and those who had

1960
01:56:49,480 --> 01:56:52,240
not been through the mysteries
of godliness would not have the

1961
01:56:52,240 --> 01:56:57,360
authority to vote on it.
Interesting, see?

1962
01:56:57,360 --> 01:56:59,280
And that's fascinating too,
right it?

1963
01:56:59,280 --> 01:57:02,680
Is that that fits with our
conversation at the very

1964
01:57:02,680 --> 01:57:04,400
beginning of the podcast?
Yeah, it does.

1965
01:57:05,000 --> 01:57:09,560
Yeah, it does.
And so they they X that though

1966
01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:14,880
in 19 O 5 or so when you know,
Arthur Horne goes on a mission

1967
01:57:14,880 --> 01:57:17,120
before he goes on his mission,
he goes to the Saint George

1968
01:57:17,120 --> 01:57:20,520
Temple and he recalls going
through a 19-O3.

1969
01:57:20,960 --> 01:57:25,480
OK.
And God is endowment and Adam,

1970
01:57:25,480 --> 01:57:28,520
God was taught in the temple in
19 O3 in Saint George.

1971
01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:32,800
He goes back after his mission
in 19 O 5 and it's gone, Holy

1972
01:57:32,800 --> 01:57:35,880
cow.
And so that's the first instance

1973
01:57:35,880 --> 01:57:38,000
of a change.
Well, then within a few years

1974
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:43,160
you have the garment changes and
other changes to the ceremony

1975
01:57:43,440 --> 01:57:46,760
that did exist for the actual
drama.

1976
01:57:47,880 --> 01:57:57,160
And then you have the removal of
the penalties, right, and the

1977
01:57:57,160 --> 01:57:58,680
Five Points Fellowship of the
Veil.

1978
01:58:00,200 --> 01:58:05,080
And then they've just been going
crazy with with removing more

1979
01:58:05,080 --> 01:58:07,920
liturgy aspects the last 10
years.

1980
01:58:09,440 --> 01:58:15,200
You know, and I remember when I
first went through the LDS

1981
01:58:15,200 --> 01:58:17,920
church, and even though it felt
disjointed, I still had no

1982
01:58:17,920 --> 01:58:21,680
reason to believe that we didn't
that that there was anything

1983
01:58:21,680 --> 01:58:22,720
missing.
Right.

1984
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:30,480
I had nothing to compare and
contrast, but nonetheless, once

1985
01:58:30,480 --> 01:58:36,840
you start understanding that one
doctor more than anything else

1986
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:42,600
about the temple, you got a good
handle on Adam God, and it

1987
01:58:42,600 --> 01:58:47,280
really starts to make sense even
in the LDS ceremony because the

1988
01:58:47,320 --> 01:58:48,800
echoes.
There's the stuff that I

1989
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:50,880
remember there used to be in
there that's no longer in there

1990
01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:54,760
was stuff like Elohim and
Jehovah telling Adam you are

1991
01:58:54,760 --> 01:58:56,960
Lord over the earth.
Yes, they removed that.

1992
01:58:57,160 --> 01:59:03,520
Yep.
They removed the part about

1993
01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:05,280
Lucifer's apron.
You know, the dialogue.

1994
01:59:05,280 --> 01:59:06,480
What is that apron you're
wearing?

1995
01:59:07,080 --> 01:59:08,680
That's the symbol of my power
and priesthood.

1996
01:59:08,680 --> 01:59:14,480
That's all gone right now.
I don't know all of what because

1997
01:59:14,480 --> 01:59:17,680
I haven't been through the most
recent changes so, but the ones

1998
01:59:17,680 --> 01:59:20,640
I did see also was that Eve no
longer covenants with Adam.

1999
01:59:20,640 --> 01:59:23,080
Nope, that's gone.
Yeah, that's gone.

2000
01:59:28,360 --> 01:59:31,000
Oh, they don't pass.
They don't do the tokens to

2001
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:34,880
every single.
Participant now just represented

2002
01:59:35,600 --> 01:59:39,640
and then at the veil.
So there is a ton that has been

2003
01:59:39,640 --> 01:59:42,400
removed, right?
And it's an avalanche after

2004
01:59:42,480 --> 01:59:44,640
removing Adam God.
And it was slow at first, but

2005
01:59:44,640 --> 01:59:45,920
it's really picking up speed
now.

2006
01:59:47,720 --> 01:59:49,760
Which, which again is
interesting.

2007
01:59:49,760 --> 01:59:54,400
I keep coming back to Adam.
God, I'll be honest, when I

2008
01:59:54,400 --> 01:59:57,400
started this whole thing with
with going into fundamentalism,

2009
01:59:58,360 --> 02:00:00,600
I loved the Adam God doctor.
That's what brought me in,

2010
02:00:00,880 --> 02:00:02,320
right?
Wasn't plugging me or United

2011
02:00:02,320 --> 02:00:04,600
Order.
I loved the Adam God Doctor.

2012
02:00:06,040 --> 02:00:09,120
I loved the proximity it gave to
me to deity.

2013
02:00:09,480 --> 02:00:13,880
Me too, right?
If I can fix Adam or God firmly

2014
02:00:13,880 --> 02:00:18,280
in his seat and I know who he is
and I know where he's at, I now

2015
02:00:18,280 --> 02:00:22,160
have a basis to say, OK, I'm
out, I'm here, God's here.

2016
02:00:23,000 --> 02:00:26,880
That gives me the opportunity to
approach God in a more real way.

2017
02:00:29,000 --> 02:00:33,200
But it is interesting that all
these groups we have talked

2018
02:00:33,200 --> 02:00:38,280
about now, that's the common
denominator.

2019
02:00:38,600 --> 02:00:44,480
I think so.
You know, there's a tying the

2020
02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:46,760
atom God doctrine, especially to
the temple and not just

2021
02:00:46,760 --> 02:00:55,200
abandoning atom God too, But you
have, for example, I think

2022
02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:59,240
potentially, I'm going to
speculate here, the Lebaron

2023
02:00:59,240 --> 02:01:03,240
movement hadn't progressed
nearly as much because they

2024
02:01:03,240 --> 02:01:06,360
didn't, they didn't focus on
temple stuff, right?

2025
02:01:06,360 --> 02:01:07,600
None of them have.
Now.

2026
02:01:07,640 --> 02:01:11,240
Most of those are fairly strong.
I don't know what Joel thought

2027
02:01:11,320 --> 02:01:14,920
about Adam God doctrine.
Ross loved it.

2028
02:01:16,240 --> 02:01:20,600
But then they never made temple
stuff really a priority.

2029
02:01:21,720 --> 02:01:28,200
Then you have others who came
later through the Tom Green

2030
02:01:28,200 --> 02:01:32,840
route into Lebaron ISM who were
Michael Stagg I think was his

2031
02:01:32,840 --> 02:01:34,960
name.
I met, I met that man once.

2032
02:01:35,160 --> 02:01:39,000
And I got a big dossier of
papers that a friend who had

2033
02:01:39,000 --> 02:01:41,480
known him gave me, and he didn't
like the Adam God.

2034
02:01:41,480 --> 02:01:45,160
Doctor No, he was, he had, he,
he termed his own the Jehovah

2035
02:01:45,160 --> 02:01:50,200
God Doctor.
And I can say that because I

2036
02:01:50,200 --> 02:01:52,360
might even still have those
papers floating around.

2037
02:01:52,360 --> 02:01:56,400
I'll have to take a look.
But you know, in my, in my years

2038
02:01:56,400 --> 02:02:00,280
of searching, I talked to as
many people as I could, right?

2039
02:02:00,280 --> 02:02:04,800
Because I'm like, once I found
out that unlike the LDS Church

2040
02:02:04,800 --> 02:02:07,680
fundament, fundamentalism isn't
a monolith, right?

2041
02:02:08,120 --> 02:02:11,600
Not even close.
It it it required me to do some

2042
02:02:11,600 --> 02:02:15,200
severe digging.
And so I don't know what their

2043
02:02:15,200 --> 02:02:17,240
status is.
It's obviously not big at all.

2044
02:02:17,240 --> 02:02:18,960
I don't know even know if Mike
Stagg is alive.

2045
02:02:19,320 --> 02:02:23,440
I think he did pass, yeah, I
think he passed 5 or 6 years

2046
02:02:23,440 --> 02:02:28,440
back if I'm not mistaken.
But nonetheless, again, didn't

2047
02:02:28,440 --> 02:02:36,360
catch, didn't catch, right.
And I think in a very real way,

2048
02:02:38,520 --> 02:02:41,840
we look at all of these
different groups and

2049
02:02:41,840 --> 02:02:44,120
organizations that have went by
the wayside.

2050
02:02:44,480 --> 02:02:49,200
You see Adam God becoming the
one thing that's gotten rid of.

2051
02:02:49,200 --> 02:02:54,120
You can keep polygamy, you can
keep temples or a version of the

2052
02:02:54,120 --> 02:02:56,560
temple.
You can have missionary

2053
02:02:56,560 --> 02:03:00,520
programs, but you don't get the
identity of God right.

2054
02:03:02,680 --> 02:03:07,760
And it's all for naughty.
It's just apostasy at that

2055
02:03:07,760 --> 02:03:10,320
point.
Great book I read when I was in

2056
02:03:10,320 --> 02:03:13,920
high school that or college, my
first year of college that said

2057
02:03:13,920 --> 02:03:19,120
that that basically the, the the
the premise of the book was

2058
02:03:19,120 --> 02:03:20,800
this.
Anytime you saw the Jews getting

2059
02:03:20,800 --> 02:03:24,000
beat up, you can bet global
instability is right behind.

2060
02:03:24,000 --> 02:03:25,640
They were kind of the Canary in
the coal mine.

2061
02:03:26,200 --> 02:03:28,280
Everyone's going to get theirs,
but they're going to get theirs

2062
02:03:28,280 --> 02:03:33,320
first, apparently.
Likewise, I think we could kind

2063
02:03:33,320 --> 02:03:35,120
of say you get rid of the Adam
God doctrine.

2064
02:03:35,120 --> 02:03:36,400
That's a Canary in the coal
mine.

2065
02:03:36,400 --> 02:03:38,200
That apostasy is right around
the corner.

2066
02:03:38,240 --> 02:03:42,040
Sure.
And we see all this now.

2067
02:03:42,680 --> 02:03:48,160
My question to you, Michael, is
this what is so appealing about

2068
02:03:48,160 --> 02:03:52,280
jettisoning that one doctrine?
That's a good question.

2069
02:03:52,360 --> 02:03:57,040
I'd have to really think outside
myself to answer that, because

2070
02:03:57,040 --> 02:04:01,640
to me it it is one of the most
appealing doctrines in the

2071
02:04:01,640 --> 02:04:06,640
gospel.
I think it's a beautiful thing

2072
02:04:06,640 --> 02:04:13,280
to see that we have the ability
to go back to another world,

2073
02:04:13,280 --> 02:04:17,000
create a paradise and provide
the same plan of salvation for

2074
02:04:17,280 --> 02:04:19,680
our spirit children that we have
for ourselves.

2075
02:04:19,680 --> 02:04:23,840
And we get to be the literal
father of their bodies as well.

2076
02:04:23,840 --> 02:04:25,840
I remember when I told my
brother about my thoughts on the

2077
02:04:25,840 --> 02:04:29,880
Adam God doctrine, you know, I
was just off my mission and the

2078
02:04:29,880 --> 02:04:31,680
Spirit told me to teach my
brother it.

2079
02:04:31,800 --> 02:04:35,320
And I was like, no, thank you.
He's not going to understand

2080
02:04:35,320 --> 02:04:40,240
this.
And so I had to approach this a

2081
02:04:40,240 --> 02:04:42,400
really weird way.
Maybe we were driving home from

2082
02:04:42,400 --> 02:04:44,760
a sacrament meeting and the
Spirit was just telling me,

2083
02:04:44,840 --> 02:04:51,200
teach him, teach him, teach him.
And I, I, I maybe tackled it

2084
02:04:51,200 --> 02:04:54,880
along these lines like Daniel,
you believe God has all power.

2085
02:04:55,720 --> 02:04:58,960
Well, I suppose he does.
He'd say to me, I said, do you

2086
02:04:58,960 --> 02:05:03,280
think that God could become a
mortal man again if you wanted

2087
02:05:03,280 --> 02:05:06,320
to?
Well, I suppose he could, but

2088
02:05:06,320 --> 02:05:09,720
why would he want to?
I said, well, Brigham Young

2089
02:05:09,720 --> 02:05:14,280
taught the Father of Adam came
as a resurrected being into the

2090
02:05:14,280 --> 02:05:17,080
Garden of Eden, and that he was
actually our Father in heaven.

2091
02:05:17,840 --> 02:05:20,200
And he just looked at me and
thought and said it would make

2092
02:05:20,200 --> 02:05:24,080
sense that the father of our
spirits would want to be the

2093
02:05:24,080 --> 02:05:26,040
Father of our bodies.
Right.

2094
02:05:26,680 --> 02:05:29,360
I mean, that is the most natural
thing.

2095
02:05:30,760 --> 02:05:34,680
And so that was super
interesting because it clicked

2096
02:05:34,880 --> 02:05:37,840
on a certain level immediately
following that prompting and

2097
02:05:37,840 --> 02:05:39,560
everything.
And it was probably a really

2098
02:05:39,560 --> 02:05:42,280
clumsy way of attacking it, but
it was the moment.

2099
02:05:42,280 --> 02:05:43,920
Right.
I think that was a beautiful way

2100
02:05:43,920 --> 02:05:46,920
because you appeal to his heart,
right?

2101
02:05:47,440 --> 02:05:51,040
And you know, I'll be honest,
until I learn the Adam God

2102
02:05:51,040 --> 02:05:53,200
doctrine, that was something
that bugged me, right?

2103
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:55,400
OK, so I'm going to go on the
other side of the veil with my

2104
02:05:55,400 --> 02:05:57,840
wife.
I'm going to have all these

2105
02:05:57,840 --> 02:06:02,480
spirit children and then I got
to select one of my other

2106
02:06:02,480 --> 02:06:10,600
children to go down to become
the father physically of my

2107
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:12,640
children.
So yeah, it doesn't really fit

2108
02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:15,480
one of my friends out here, you
know, older guy named Thomas

2109
02:06:15,480 --> 02:06:17,360
Williams.
I love the way he puts it.

2110
02:06:17,360 --> 02:06:20,560
He says if you're going to go
start a family, you're going to

2111
02:06:20,560 --> 02:06:22,680
have someone else do it for you.
Right.

2112
02:06:22,840 --> 02:06:24,760
Yeah.
No, no sense.

2113
02:06:25,160 --> 02:06:31,000
No, no, no, that is that is the
role of you and your your wife,

2114
02:06:31,000 --> 02:06:35,600
right.
I mean, holy cow, you know, you

2115
02:06:35,600 --> 02:06:38,920
hit on something earlier that I
think is a big push for this.

2116
02:06:38,920 --> 02:06:42,680
And I think it was a big push
from the beginning to get rid of

2117
02:06:42,680 --> 02:06:48,040
this doctrine, right?
I don't know what it is, dude.

2118
02:06:48,640 --> 02:06:54,720
But Mormons, do we have a
serious case of the hots for the

2119
02:06:54,720 --> 02:06:56,280
term Christian?
We do.

2120
02:06:56,560 --> 02:07:00,640
Like I know like Christ said, we
shouldn't lust after something,

2121
02:07:00,640 --> 02:07:05,040
but I'm sorry, there are certain
times I see Mormons lusting to

2122
02:07:05,040 --> 02:07:08,080
be called Christian.
Stop it.

2123
02:07:08,800 --> 02:07:10,480
Just stop.
We're not the same.

2124
02:07:11,400 --> 02:07:15,240
We're not the same.
I know that everybody wants to

2125
02:07:15,240 --> 02:07:18,080
be liked, I get it.
But you know what?

2126
02:07:20,480 --> 02:07:25,480
It's not Joseph's words.
It's God's words when he tells

2127
02:07:25,480 --> 02:07:31,560
Joseph they're all their creeds
are an abomination before me.

2128
02:07:31,560 --> 02:07:33,160
That's not none of them.
That's.

2129
02:07:33,160 --> 02:07:35,280
True.
He didn't say they were wrong.

2130
02:07:35,600 --> 02:07:38,320
He didn't say that they were
slightly off base.

2131
02:07:38,600 --> 02:07:40,800
He didn't go well.
They got a different take than I

2132
02:07:40,800 --> 02:07:43,000
do.
He used some pretty strong

2133
02:07:43,000 --> 02:07:44,080
language.
He did.

2134
02:07:44,560 --> 02:07:48,200
They're an abomination, but
their creeds are an abomination.

2135
02:07:49,360 --> 02:07:53,640
He did say that, yeah.
So why are you lusting after

2136
02:07:53,640 --> 02:07:56,440
something that your own God
called Obama?

2137
02:07:58,080 --> 02:08:02,320
Their teachings, their creeds?
You want to lust after that?

2138
02:08:02,320 --> 02:08:04,560
You go ahead.
I'll stick with the term Mormon.

2139
02:08:04,760 --> 02:08:07,520
Wear that one proudly and you
can have the Christian type.

2140
02:08:07,800 --> 02:08:12,440
Yeah, I concur with that.
That's probably what it boils

2141
02:08:12,440 --> 02:08:19,680
down to is they they feel like
Christ is slighted by Adam being

2142
02:08:19,680 --> 02:08:24,720
God and somehow like it makes
like it makes Christ a bastard.

2143
02:08:24,720 --> 02:08:28,400
Probably like that's, you know,
in their mental framework.

2144
02:08:28,400 --> 02:08:32,920
Somehow it lessens Christ.
Right.

2145
02:08:34,120 --> 02:08:38,240
And if you can get beyond that,
I think that, for example, when

2146
02:08:38,240 --> 02:08:41,520
I started to think when I was
still in the mission field, it

2147
02:08:41,520 --> 02:08:48,280
wasn't so much, oh, Adam is God
so much as I started to think

2148
02:08:48,280 --> 02:08:53,080
all the lines of God, my
heavenly Father became Adam, my

2149
02:08:53,080 --> 02:08:54,840
heavenly Father became the first
man.

2150
02:08:55,520 --> 02:08:58,720
And so I wasn't taking the
preconception of what Adam was

2151
02:08:59,080 --> 02:09:01,920
and saying that's what God is.
I, I looked at what my, I had

2152
02:09:01,920 --> 02:09:04,440
already viewed God as and said
he became Adam.

2153
02:09:04,440 --> 02:09:08,040
Does that make any sense?
Yep, Yeah, it makes a lot of

2154
02:09:08,040 --> 02:09:10,280
sense.
And God is perfect.

2155
02:09:10,280 --> 02:09:16,240
He's not, you know, he didn't
fall through moral sin, you

2156
02:09:16,240 --> 02:09:18,320
know, And so I don't longer have
that barrier.

2157
02:09:18,520 --> 02:09:21,480
No, And you know, I think that's
something interesting that we

2158
02:09:21,480 --> 02:09:26,480
should probably broach here real
quick, this idea that that if if

2159
02:09:26,480 --> 02:09:29,120
Adam is God, that means he's
sent, right?

2160
02:09:30,080 --> 02:09:32,560
No, he just prioritized
commandments.

2161
02:09:32,760 --> 02:09:37,440
And let me explain this as far
as I know, and I'm willing to be

2162
02:09:37,440 --> 02:09:39,640
wrong on this.
Someone has a different example.

2163
02:09:39,640 --> 02:09:44,560
I'm willing to to take that, but
my estimation there's only one

2164
02:09:44,560 --> 02:09:49,960
part and God's dealing with man
from the Canon in which God gave

2165
02:09:49,960 --> 02:09:54,000
man 2 competing commandments and
they couldn't be kept

2166
02:09:54,000 --> 02:09:56,480
simultaneously, right?
Right.

2167
02:09:56,880 --> 02:10:01,400
The commandment in the garden is
to multiply and replenish the

2168
02:10:01,400 --> 02:10:05,880
earth.
The other commandment is don't

2169
02:10:05,880 --> 02:10:10,560
eat of that tree.
He's given a choice.

2170
02:10:12,080 --> 02:10:14,960
Eve is given a choice.
Which one is it going to be?

2171
02:10:16,160 --> 02:10:19,120
You're going to have children or
you're going to not eat of that

2172
02:10:19,120 --> 02:10:20,560
tree.
And Adam was put in a place

2173
02:10:20,560 --> 02:10:24,080
where Eve couldn't remain with
him, and he had to choose to

2174
02:10:24,080 --> 02:10:26,400
follow one commandment that was
greater, right?

2175
02:10:26,400 --> 02:10:31,600
Yes, yes.
And so in that instance, God,

2176
02:10:32,480 --> 02:10:38,400
Adam's God, puts him in a
situation where he's going to

2177
02:10:38,400 --> 02:10:42,760
have to make that choice.
Right now, we can all

2178
02:10:43,240 --> 02:10:47,040
hypothesize what could have
happened, what should have

2179
02:10:47,040 --> 02:10:50,880
happened.
But the end of the day, it was

2180
02:10:50,880 --> 02:10:54,080
given and Adam had to choose.
And because he had to choose to

2181
02:10:54,080 --> 02:10:57,400
follow a commandment at the
expense of another commandment,

2182
02:10:57,400 --> 02:10:59,120
I don't think you can call that
sin.

2183
02:10:59,720 --> 02:11:02,200
I think that's transgression.
Yeah.

2184
02:11:03,640 --> 02:11:09,680
And so if you, if you can wrap
your mind around that, I think

2185
02:11:10,000 --> 02:11:14,080
that God's sinning problem, so
to speak, kind of goes.

2186
02:11:14,080 --> 02:11:15,240
Away.
It's really interesting that

2187
02:11:15,240 --> 02:11:18,000
Joseph Fielding Smith wasn't an
atom God proponent, but he gave

2188
02:11:18,000 --> 02:11:21,440
a really good defense for it
when he said Adam only

2189
02:11:21,440 --> 02:11:25,560
transgressed a chemical law the
same way a chemist in a

2190
02:11:25,560 --> 02:11:30,120
laboratory transgresses a law of
physics or chemistry when he

2191
02:11:30,120 --> 02:11:32,600
combines elements to create a
new a thought bound.

2192
02:11:32,600 --> 02:11:37,920
Interesting, interesting.
Yeah, which is what you see when

2193
02:11:37,920 --> 02:11:40,880
he partakes of the fruit and his
body becomes mortal.

2194
02:11:41,160 --> 02:11:42,560
Yeah.
And so it's the combining of

2195
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:46,520
elements into a new compound.
When did?

2196
02:11:48,280 --> 02:11:50,960
I'm pretty sure I know the
answer, but when does the Adam

2197
02:11:50,960 --> 02:11:54,520
God officially become jettisoned
from the LDS church?

2198
02:11:54,520 --> 02:11:56,960
Because it's my understanding
that Brigham first says, you

2199
02:11:56,960 --> 02:12:00,640
know what?
Not Brigham, but Wilfred

2200
02:12:00,640 --> 02:12:03,880
Woodruff says I'm done with this
debate.

2201
02:12:04,640 --> 02:12:08,320
Like yeah, and just kind of
18941897 or so.

2202
02:12:08,440 --> 02:12:12,640
Just just keep yourself and use
amongst these by yourself.

2203
02:12:12,640 --> 02:12:15,280
But let's not make it a matter
of discussion any.

2204
02:12:15,320 --> 02:12:17,800
Yeah, but he also tells Brigham
Young Junior, who writes in his

2205
02:12:17,800 --> 02:12:20,880
journal, that Wilper would have
said Adam is our father and our

2206
02:12:20,880 --> 02:12:23,600
God, and it's no use to discuss
it with the Josephites, which

2207
02:12:23,760 --> 02:12:25,960
meant the RLDS people.
Oh, OK.

2208
02:12:25,960 --> 02:12:28,840
Because that was their their big
things against us was polygamy

2209
02:12:28,840 --> 02:12:31,040
and Adam God in those days.
Right.

2210
02:12:31,520 --> 02:12:35,360
And so when we got rid of
polygamy or saw protesting

2211
02:12:35,360 --> 02:12:39,160
polygamy in 1890, they doubled
down on we still believe in Adam

2212
02:12:39,160 --> 02:12:41,520
God and Wilford's like don't
even listen to them.

2213
02:12:41,520 --> 02:12:44,080
Don't even talk to them about
Adam God.

2214
02:12:44,080 --> 02:12:46,440
But he's our father and he and
he is our God.

2215
02:12:46,600 --> 02:12:48,160
Don't even waste your time
talking to the.

2216
02:12:48,160 --> 02:12:50,520
Ghost fights.
Interesting because he had a

2217
02:12:50,520 --> 02:12:54,280
couple of public sermons where
he said stop worrying about it,

2218
02:12:54,280 --> 02:12:57,440
just think about this yourself,
right?

2219
02:12:57,440 --> 02:13:01,240
And I think it was because of
the RLDS mission in in progress

2220
02:13:01,240 --> 02:13:03,720
against Utah.
I imagine it was.

2221
02:13:04,480 --> 02:13:10,160
And what's interesting now too
is so I think, I think Jesus the

2222
02:13:10,160 --> 02:13:11,880
Christ is the book that seals
the deal.

2223
02:13:11,880 --> 02:13:14,480
Yeah, so that was published in
1915, I want to say.

2224
02:13:14,480 --> 02:13:17,200
And before that, you had some
complaints from like Charles

2225
02:13:17,200 --> 02:13:20,400
Penrose and others who are like,
some people still believe in

2226
02:13:20,400 --> 02:13:21,760
Adam, God, and they're teaching
it.

2227
02:13:23,320 --> 02:13:26,200
But then it wasn't after Jesus
the Christ.

2228
02:13:26,200 --> 02:13:30,560
It kind of died and went away
silently until fundamentals

2229
02:13:30,560 --> 02:13:33,160
started making a big deal of it.
And then Spencer Wooly Kimball

2230
02:13:33,800 --> 02:13:39,960
made his 1976 proclamation where
he denounced it.

2231
02:13:40,520 --> 02:13:47,240
Right.
So we've talked about a lot

2232
02:13:47,240 --> 02:13:49,360
here.
We've dived into doctrine, we've

2233
02:13:49,360 --> 02:13:52,280
talked how old historical
sources and patterns.

2234
02:13:53,920 --> 02:13:56,960
Why is it, I'm just going to
call it like I see it.

2235
02:13:57,880 --> 02:14:01,280
Why is it?
Do you think that getting rid of

2236
02:14:01,280 --> 02:14:05,320
this one doctrine is always the
signal for apostasy within a

2237
02:14:05,320 --> 02:14:16,330
group or even an individual?
Well, I think the it's a signal

2238
02:14:16,810 --> 02:14:19,450
based off of what we talked
about for sure.

2239
02:14:19,450 --> 02:14:22,450
You know, it seems to prelude a
lot of problems.

2240
02:14:23,930 --> 02:14:28,450
It would assume one that you
don't know who you are as well

2241
02:14:28,450 --> 02:14:30,330
as you don't know who your
Father in heaven is.

2242
02:14:31,130 --> 02:14:36,080
And so it clouds your eternal
progression because what else

2243
02:14:36,080 --> 02:14:38,280
are we trying to be like?
I mean, you can say I'm trying

2244
02:14:38,280 --> 02:14:43,800
to be like Christ, which is
good, which is good, but you and

2245
02:14:43,800 --> 02:14:47,760
I aren't going to be Christ's.
No, we're going to be atoms.

2246
02:14:48,160 --> 02:14:50,280
Right.
Ideally, if we're faithful.

2247
02:14:50,440 --> 02:15:03,750
Yep, I think there's something
much more spiritual at play.

2248
02:15:03,750 --> 02:15:04,790
Here.
OK.

2249
02:15:07,880 --> 02:15:12,080
There's a statement in the New
Testament of Christ talking

2250
02:15:12,080 --> 02:15:18,240
about demonic possession,
actually, and I'm not saying

2251
02:15:18,240 --> 02:15:21,000
that if you don't believe the
Adam God doctrine that you're

2252
02:15:21,000 --> 02:15:23,880
demonic.
I think it's illustrates a

2253
02:15:23,880 --> 02:15:28,280
principle, and I think that
principle is pretty applicable

2254
02:15:28,280 --> 02:15:34,720
here, and it's found in Matthew
chapter 12, verses 43 through

2255
02:15:34,720 --> 02:15:37,280
45.
Let's just go there and read

2256
02:15:37,280 --> 02:15:44,520
this real quick.
And I want to say this that I

2257
02:15:44,520 --> 02:15:47,920
think that this verse especially
has significance to people

2258
02:15:47,920 --> 02:15:51,040
who've been taught this doctrine
already and who once believed

2259
02:15:51,040 --> 02:15:57,320
it.
And it starts in, like I said in

2260
02:15:57,320 --> 02:16:01,920
verse 43, just going to read
this here.

2261
02:16:05,880 --> 02:16:08,960
When the unclean spirit is gone
out of a man, and he walketh

2262
02:16:08,960 --> 02:16:13,440
through dry places seeking rest,
and findeth none, then he saith,

2263
02:16:13,440 --> 02:16:17,360
I return into my house from
whence I came out.

2264
02:16:17,600 --> 02:16:21,280
And when he has come, he findeth
the empty, swept and garnished.

2265
02:16:22,040 --> 02:16:26,520
Then goeth he, and taketh
himself up, taketh himself seven

2266
02:16:26,520 --> 02:16:31,240
other spirits more wicked than
himself, and they enter in and

2267
02:16:31,240 --> 02:16:35,120
dwell there.
And the last state of the man is

2268
02:16:35,120 --> 02:16:39,920
worse than the first.
Even so it shall be also unto

2269
02:16:40,320 --> 02:16:42,200
the wicked, this wicked
generation.

2270
02:16:44,760 --> 02:16:48,120
OK.
It's basically saying if you've

2271
02:16:48,760 --> 02:16:54,480
in this case, if you've been
been pronounced clean from

2272
02:16:54,480 --> 02:16:57,680
something or if you've been
delivered for something and then

2273
02:16:57,680 --> 02:17:03,040
you go back and you take up with
the thing that you've been

2274
02:17:03,040 --> 02:17:08,799
delivered from, your condition
is worse that second time around

2275
02:17:08,799 --> 02:17:13,879
than the first.
People who've been taught this,

2276
02:17:15,719 --> 02:17:17,840
they know it and they understand
it, right?

2277
02:17:19,160 --> 02:17:21,600
I think that's maybe another
reason we don't see a lot of

2278
02:17:21,600 --> 02:17:24,920
nasty things that we see in the
LDS church that we saw in the

2279
02:17:24,920 --> 02:17:30,040
FLDS Church or the, or the
Harmstein group or the cross

2280
02:17:30,040 --> 02:17:34,040
fields or any of those others,
because there's a ton of people

2281
02:17:34,040 --> 02:17:38,840
who never knew that knowledge.
But to those fundamentalists who

2282
02:17:38,840 --> 02:17:45,320
went away from this, almost all
of them went dark in one way or

2283
02:17:45,320 --> 02:17:50,879
another, right?
Best case scenario it becomes

2284
02:17:50,879 --> 02:17:56,360
the cross fields and it's a sex
cult or it's the I'm sorry I

2285
02:17:56,360 --> 02:17:57,959
don't know how else to put.
Oh, that's fine.

2286
02:17:58,680 --> 02:18:01,320
Right.
Or it's the Harmstein Group,

2287
02:18:01,320 --> 02:18:06,959
which seems Jim Harmstein, which
seems to have some graft and

2288
02:18:06,959 --> 02:18:11,680
some grift there, right?
Or worst case scenario, it's the

2289
02:18:11,680 --> 02:18:15,600
FLDS church.
Nonetheless, the pattern is

2290
02:18:15,600 --> 02:18:21,200
pretty clear.
If you deny who God is after

2291
02:18:21,200 --> 02:18:24,760
knowing them, you can count on
your mind being darkened again.

2292
02:18:26,120 --> 02:18:30,080
So I think to answer your
question to why is this a sign

2293
02:18:30,080 --> 02:18:33,240
of apostasy in spiritual
darkness?

2294
02:18:33,559 --> 02:18:36,559
Well, if we tie Adam God to the
ordinances, which we have done,

2295
02:18:36,559 --> 02:18:39,120
I think fairly well to argue
that it is tied to the

2296
02:18:39,120 --> 02:18:41,320
ordinances or what we call the
mysteries of godliness.

2297
02:18:41,320 --> 02:18:44,400
And then let's read this passage
of Scripture, section 84.

2298
02:18:46,240 --> 02:18:48,600
It says, and this greater
priesthood administereth the

2299
02:18:48,600 --> 02:18:51,920
gospel and hold with the keys of
the mysteries of the Kingdom,

2300
02:18:51,920 --> 02:18:53,840
even the key of the knowledge of
God.

2301
02:18:54,520 --> 02:18:57,320
Therefore, in the ordinances
thereof and the the power of

2302
02:18:57,320 --> 02:19:04,680
godliness is manifest.
So to reject that is essentially

2303
02:19:04,680 --> 02:19:08,840
to reject the key of the
knowledge of God, which is

2304
02:19:08,840 --> 02:19:12,480
administered by the ordinances,
right, you know, and by the high

2305
02:19:12,480 --> 02:19:15,240
priesthood.
So it is that is tied the key of

2306
02:19:15,240 --> 02:19:17,160
the knowledge of God is tied to
the high priesthood.

2307
02:19:17,600 --> 02:19:19,879
Yeah.
And so it is an apostasy from

2308
02:19:20,280 --> 02:19:23,200
the administration of the high
priest at an ultimate level.

2309
02:19:23,840 --> 02:19:29,520
And because of that, Moses and
the and those who were ordained

2310
02:19:29,520 --> 02:19:31,360
to the High Priestess were taken
away from Israel.

2311
02:19:31,760 --> 02:19:33,719
Right.
And they were left with a lower

2312
02:19:33,719 --> 02:19:34,959
law.
Yep.

2313
02:19:35,799 --> 02:19:37,879
Yeah.
Preparatory gospel, which

2314
02:19:37,879 --> 02:19:40,959
unfortunately is the lens that
we have to view a lot of the

2315
02:19:40,959 --> 02:19:44,360
scriptural Canon through which
is the preparatory gospel.

2316
02:19:44,360 --> 02:19:49,000
Absolutely, absolutely.
And look, I'm not saying that

2317
02:19:49,000 --> 02:19:55,640
anyone who believes something
different than then the Adam God

2318
02:19:55,640 --> 02:19:59,800
doctrine is a devil in waiting,
right?

2319
02:19:59,880 --> 02:20:03,280
I'm not trying to say that.
What I am trying to say is there

2320
02:20:03,280 --> 02:20:09,880
is danger in only what was
revealed.

2321
02:20:09,880 --> 02:20:13,720
False.
And make no doubt about it, the

2322
02:20:13,720 --> 02:20:18,240
history is abundantly clear.
Like at this point as I keep

2323
02:20:18,240 --> 02:20:21,360
doing more research it starts
getting into the realm of

2324
02:20:21,360 --> 02:20:28,280
polygamy denier kind of ideas to
get past it.

2325
02:20:28,560 --> 02:20:29,400
Sure.
Right.

2326
02:20:29,720 --> 02:20:33,160
I think, I think the evidence is
starting to become overwhelming

2327
02:20:33,800 --> 02:20:36,520
when we start looking at did
Joseph teach this?

2328
02:20:37,880 --> 02:20:39,920
I think it's clear.
Right.

2329
02:20:41,320 --> 02:20:46,600
With that in mind, I think you
could bank on this pattern or

2330
02:20:46,600 --> 02:20:50,280
repeating.
So it's not so much a, hey,

2331
02:20:50,360 --> 02:20:54,400
you're evil if you don't believe
the Adam God doctrine, but more

2332
02:20:54,440 --> 02:20:58,560
of typically this has been a
sign of apostasy to come.

2333
02:20:58,920 --> 02:21:03,400
Yep, this is the first step and
it seems to be the most

2334
02:21:03,400 --> 02:21:06,240
important step.
The other thing I would say,

2335
02:21:08,840 --> 02:21:11,560
you're going to want to be very
careful in toying with this.

2336
02:21:12,000 --> 02:21:19,480
Doctrine.
Because now the Adam God

2337
02:21:19,480 --> 02:21:22,800
doctrine is true.
You come out, you say, no,

2338
02:21:22,800 --> 02:21:25,760
that's not right.
If you take Orson Heights

2339
02:21:25,760 --> 02:21:30,920
perspective, Pratt, excuse me,
take Orson Pratt's perspective.

2340
02:21:32,160 --> 02:21:37,520
If you take the LDS perspective,
the Jehovah God doctrine

2341
02:21:37,520 --> 02:21:44,760
perspective, and you're not 100%
sure, you may have damaged your

2342
02:21:44,760 --> 02:21:49,920
relationship between God and his
children because now they don't

2343
02:21:49,920 --> 02:21:54,280
approach him the same way.
And how can you emulate

2344
02:21:54,280 --> 02:22:01,800
something you don't know about?
And you're telling me that the

2345
02:22:01,800 --> 02:22:13,760
gods plan to get us to become as
they are is so important that

2346
02:22:13,760 --> 02:22:17,760
they left us no record on how to
get there, which is what you're

2347
02:22:17,760 --> 02:22:19,680
doing.
If Adam's not God in the temple,

2348
02:22:21,520 --> 02:22:24,760
you basically said, yeah, you
can follow his example, but we

2349
02:22:24,760 --> 02:22:27,280
really don't know what the
Father did to become the Father.

2350
02:22:28,760 --> 02:22:32,600
That's a problem.
That's you're you're essentially

2351
02:22:32,600 --> 02:22:35,600
creating.
You're essentially putting God

2352
02:22:35,600 --> 02:22:40,040
back as an absentee father.
And I don't, I think that that

2353
02:22:40,040 --> 02:22:42,200
goes well.
I know it wouldn't go well in my

2354
02:22:42,200 --> 02:22:46,000
household.
So I, I just think we need to be

2355
02:22:46,000 --> 02:22:48,200
careful with those things.
That's, that's all I got to say

2356
02:22:48,200 --> 02:22:49,440
on this.
You got anything else you want

2357
02:22:49,440 --> 02:22:50,560
to go over?
No, I'm good.

2358
02:22:50,800 --> 02:22:52,680
All right, man.
Thanks for stopping.

2359
02:22:52,840 --> 02:22:53,880
Bye.
We'll talk to you later.

2360
02:22:54,240 --> 02:23:26,560
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2361
02:23:26,560 --> 02:23:27,960
Renegade podcast.

Episode #195: The Doctrinal Canary In The Cole Mine W/Michael Ness

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