Episode #189: The Release Of The 1886 Revelation W/Cristina Gagliano

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The you're listening to the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Well, you tried to retire, which
I, I respect.

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I respect I, I, I do I, I throw
mad respect your way anytime I

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get a chance, and I can respect
trying to retire.

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But Mormon fundamentalism, it'll
drag you back in.

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You don't have a choice.
Once you're in, you're in.

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And what A and what a, what a
way, right?

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I, I retired thinking what could
possibly happen and what and

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what it's like 5-6 months and
all of a sudden like the moment

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I've been waiting for my whole
career.

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I knew it was good.
I knew it was good when I got

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the message from you saying I'm
coming out of retirement and you

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should take a look at this.
So I'll I'll tell you exactly

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like we were doing the most
Mormon thing ever.

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When when I got your text, me
and the girls jumped in the

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truck.
I was like, let's go to Adam on

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Diamond and I haven't been to
Hans Mill yet, so let's go

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there.
Right.

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Like the only thing I was
missing is like if I just would

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have loaded up a hand cart and
went with that.

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But nonetheless, we were there
and we had just, we had just

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gotten done at Hans Mill.
When, when when I got your

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message and I was like, oh, and
I was like, OK, so actually I

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was like dictating the message
because I was driving and I was

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having my, my wife in the front
seat, who was Amber.

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I was at that time I was like,
OK, you need to text your back.

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And and she's like, well, what
do you want to say?

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I was like, I got to see if I
can get her to come on the

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program.
And Amber goes, she retired.

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I'm like, it's different.
You'll get it.

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It's different, different,
right?

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Like I got, I got to see.
And so like I'm, I'm, I'm

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dictating the messages.
She's like typing away.

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And so, yeah, no, I was.
Had you?

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Had you told her what happened
at this point?

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No, because I was like, I, I was
like, I was trying to figure it

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out all myself, right?
Because look, there's two parts

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of this thing that are huge. 1
is that the church actually

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admits that this was a thing now
and then.

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The second is that we have
evidence now that this was kind

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of deep sixed intentionally,
right?

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It's it wasn't like, oh, what,
you know, I must have left that

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revelation in my other vault.
And so it, it was I, I was like,

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I, I was just ecstatic, right.
And I'm, you know, as I'm want

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to do, I'm trying to think of,
OK, where are the ramifications

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of this and going down the line.
So I was super glad when you

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said you would you'd be willing
to come back on and come out of

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retirement.
Yeah, it was AI mean.

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It was a wild moment because,
you know, I started asking about

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this years ago.
Like, I believed it was in there

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like everyone.
And I never let it go.

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Like I'll be everyone's favorite
gentile who doesn't know how to

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let things go.
And so I just kept asking about

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this.
And it's like, you know,

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Saturday, I'm with my husband at
the library, just having a

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normal day, and I get a text
that says, I hope you're sitting

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down.
And then the follow up text is a

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link that has no preview.
And, and I was like, and I, it

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said the Church of Jesus Christ,
Latter Day Saints or whatever,

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and, or church history library.
And you know, in my mind, I'm

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like, nothing is going to excite
me.

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Like I'm so done with this
field.

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Like there's nothing that I can
click here that is going to make

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me like, you know, whatever, I
don't care.

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And I click it.
And the way that my jaw hit the

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floor and my husband looks at me
and I like get like teary eyed

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and I'm just like kind of
looking around frantically

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because I'm sitting in the
middle of the library in like

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rural Tennessee, Like no one
cares.

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And, and I'm just like freaking
out.

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My husband's like what's going
on?

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And I was like, I knew it.
And I was like, it's the 1886

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revelation.
And I turned the computer and of

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course I'm like rehashing this
whole story of like 1886.

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And he's, and he's very familiar
with the history.

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Of course he is at this point.
And also, yeah, probably the

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only Anglican priest who in
Quebec who like really knows

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this history.
And and then I, I started, I

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didn't know what to do.
I asked if I could share it and

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I impulse Facebook posted it.
But then I immediately started

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messaging all the
fundamentalists I know.

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And I posted in fundamentalist
groups that like the one that

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that I like, used to moderate
with Jacob.

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Like I started posting everyone.
I was like y'all were right.

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Yeah, yeah.
Well, and, and, and that's, you

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know, look, the fact that it's
legit doesn't surprise anybody

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in in the community at large,
right?

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We all knew.
We all knew, right?

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It was, it was a foregone
conclusion.

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But the and, and we'll get
there.

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We'll get there in this
conversation.

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But the fact it's out in public
now and the LDS Church

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recognizes it as legit, that's a
different animal.

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And the implications of this I
think are huge now, right?

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And we'll discuss those later.
But before, before we get there,

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let's because I do have a large
segment of the of the audience

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who is active members of the LDS
Church.

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And a lot of this they do not
quite understand yet.

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So, real quick, let's break down
what the 1886 revelation is.

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Sure.
So I want, I always kind of note

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that the 1886 revelation is
actually not unique or special,

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like John Taylor to paint a
picture of this man, 3rd

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president of the church.
Ride or die for polygamy.

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Like this man.
If there ever was a Mormon

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prophet who was going to die for
this, it was going to be him.

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I mean, Brigham Young, of
course, during the Mormon

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reformation especially.
Like really enthusiastic about

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polygamy.
I I know this is since I've

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retired, this has become
controversial.

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Joseph Smith starts it.
I know, I'm sorry.

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I had no idea.
When I my shock when I realized

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this has become a controversial
statement at this point, Joseph

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starts it.
Brigham Young really expands it,

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certainly, but John Taylor is
willing to die for it.

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Like John Taylor is a ride or
die.

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And the reason why that is so
significant is that John Taylor

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is promoting plural marriage at
the height of government

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persecution and prosecution.
By the time of this writing in

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1885, the Edmonds Act has been
put into place.

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This disenfranchises Mormons.
You don't get to vote now.

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You don't get to hold state
office.

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There's kind of looming concern
that they're going to

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disincorporate the LDS church.
They're going to seize temple

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property.
They're going to seize church

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property.
And I mean, if the, I mean, we

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can all imagine, I mean, LDS
fundamentalists alike, if the

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government comes in and takes
your temples, like your

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marriages are gone, your
endowments are gone, everything

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is gone.
And you have kind of two options

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in light of this.
You can either cave to the

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federal government or you can
double down.

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And our boy John Taylor, would
you believe he double s down

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that?
Dude was gangster.

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I'm sorry, if you're a prophet
that has a wanted poster, you're

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straight up gangster.
I don't know how else to put it.

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That's awesome.
He's like he is.

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I mean, I early in my career I
started referring to him as the

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last of the bad ass prophets.
Yeah, because he like, I mean,

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he was kind of what you imagine
as a wild, blessed rugged.

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Like if bolo ties had been a
thing, he would have worn one.

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Like he he was, I mean, he was
he was English.

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So it's also that kind of like
throws the wrench in the vibe,

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but just in terms of the
aesthetic of the wild rice.

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But but he he really believed
and that was that really

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matters.
So he's in hiding because like

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when we say that like The Wanted
post for everything, he's in

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hiding in Centerville, UT, in
the home of a man named John

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West Woolley.
And that is going to be an

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important part of the story.
And while he's in hiding,

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everyone around him is like,
what are we going to do?

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And kind of me, I don't really
know what they obviously would

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have thought he would have done,
but certainly some people might

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have wondered.
Maybe he'll cave.

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And on September 27th, 1886, he
kind of goes to pray.

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He kind of secludes themselves
for prayer.

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And we can talk about what the
later narratives look like, but

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at the time the only thing we
know is from that a document

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emerges and the document becomes
colloquially known and

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fundamentalism as the 1886
revelation.

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And it is a significant
revelation for two reason.

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For one really big reason.
Like I mentioned, John Taylor

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had been into polygamy forever.
In 1882, he writes A revelation

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about like he loves the new and
everlasting covenant of plural

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marriage.
Like he is so invested in it.

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This is different because 1886
opens with.

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Thus sayeth the Lord.
Right.

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And that creates a situation
like none of the other documents

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about polygamy that John Taylor
produces, that any of them

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produce, say thus saith the
Lord.

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So this has a weight to it that
other polygamy revelations do

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not have.
And now the interesting thing,

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and as we talked about the
history, it is kind of a

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difficult thing to piece
together because the revelation

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is produced.
And then, to make it very

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complicated, John Taylor
proceeds to die the next year.

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Yep.
And there is no explainer,

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there's no diary entries about
it, there's no commentary about

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it.
It pretty much vanishes.

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Now what we do know about the,
and I mean even when the when

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the George Buchanan Diaries were
released, many people, myself

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included, like ran to the date
September 27, 1886 to try to see

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George Buchanan mentions it.
No one mentions it.

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The only thing we know is that
one month after the revelation,

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John Taylor takes a plural wife.
That is the case.

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We also know that John W Wooley,
whose home he was in, he also

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takes a plural life.
The problem with that, of

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course, there's no causal
connection.

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Like none of them are plurally
sealed and say this is because

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of the 1886 revelation, but
that's it.

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So from 1886 until 1889 we
actually have nothing about the

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document.
Wow.

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At all.
And it's actually not until

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Samuel Woolley in his diary in
1889, he just kind of very

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casually says John Taylor was at
John W Taylor was at dinner,

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mentions his dad received a
revelation.

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But we have really nothing about
it for years.

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Right.
And so is the reason that

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revelation isn't brought forward
for for years.

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In your estimation, do just
simply because of the nature of

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his life at that time that he's
running house to house, dodging

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the feds, trying to to evade
capture?

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Yeah.
I mean, one of the things I've

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seen a lot online is a lot of
people have commented that, you

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know, this was never brought
before anyone for kind of

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sustaining vote.
This is never kind of been

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canonized.
And that's true.

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It didn't have to be though.
Polygamy was already part of the

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religion, right?
So, so it is true that John

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Taylor does not bring this
forward to canonize it.

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He does not bring it to the
apostles.

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He doesn't do that.
Why it it?

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It wouldn't have made a
difference.

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Polygamy 132 was stood.
I mean 1890 the the manifestos

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that will eventually happen have
not happened yet.

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So if he brings forth 1886
revelation and says thus saith

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the Lord, we have to do
polygamy, people are going to

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hear that and say we know.
Right, right.

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Like.
Yeah, it, it's, it's not, I'll,

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I'll be honest as, as and please
correct me if I'm wrong.

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You've, you've done your
research and, and you know, you

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got PhD behind your name.
I want to give you that grad

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there.
So, so please, if I, if I frame

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this wrong, let me know.
But Christina, as I look at

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00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,800
this, sometimes I feel like this
is as much a revelation to the

225
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,960
leadership as it is to the
general membership, right?

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00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,560
It's the leadership that's
struggling with us 'cause if I'm

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00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:49,840
not mistaken, at one point
short, and I believe it comes

228
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,600
out of one of Quinn's books.
But right before he has this

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00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:59,040
revelation, George Buchanan does
deliver to him what could be

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00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,000
kind of like a forerunner to the
manifesto, right?

231
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,880
And at which point I think
that's when the prayer really

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00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,240
starts is, OK, is this something
I should do?

233
00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,520
So to me, sometimes I look at
the 1886 revelation, and I think

234
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:17,080
it's far more about the men who
were leadership at that time

235
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,160
than it was the entire
membership.

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00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,040
Because like you said, the
membership would be like, well,

237
00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,880
duh.
Because they weren't Privy to

238
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,280
these arguments or these
discussions that were being had.

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00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,560
Is that a fair assessment there
of that, Yeah.

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00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:30,760
Yeah.
I mean, I think especially in

241
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,880
light of the political climate
and the government climate, I

242
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:40,280
think this revelation was simply
or not simply a reaffirming of

243
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,080
we cannot cave to this, right?
I, I don't, it wasn't new, it

244
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,000
wasn't new information, it
wasn't novel information.

245
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,920
And the revelation itself, it's
short, it's not actually that

246
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:56,960
exciting, but the revelation is
God affirming to John Taylor

247
00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,720
that I do not revoke eternal
commandments.

248
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,840
And so it is a reiteration of
God has said something.

249
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,800
We cannot back down on it.
It is that that's really what it

250
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,040
is.
It is him reaffirming.

251
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:12,880
This is who we are.
This is what we do.

252
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,280
We're going to the grave with
this.

253
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,320
Which does of course make it a
bummer that it's like 4 years

254
00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,600
later.
Yeah, yeah, no, I get it.

255
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:26,120
I I do want to cover something
because I've heard especially

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00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,440
for, for my active LDS folks,
they're, they're a little

257
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,120
confused on, on what this is
really talking about.

258
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,200
And that's because like any
language, Mormon has a Mormonism

259
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,640
has a verbiage, right?
And that verbiage has changed

260
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,280
over the years from group to
group.

261
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,560
And, and I do want to read just
a portion out of this because I

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00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,880
think this is important,
especially for for those who

263
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,160
don't have a real good handle on
on what this revelation is

264
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,520
about.
And in in the first verse, he

265
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,520
says, my son John, you have
asked me, considering the new

266
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,160
and everlasting covenant, how
far it is binding upon my

267
00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,000
people.
Thus saith the Lord, all

268
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,920
commandments that I give must be
obeyed by those calling

269
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,800
themselves by my name, unless
they're revoked by me or by my

270
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,000
authority.
Now the thing I want to point

271
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:14,240
out there is the term the new
and everlasting covenant that

272
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,880
has gone through some change
right now.

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00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,960
What?
What is that referring to in the

274
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,320
1800s during John Taylor's time?
Yeah, new and everlasting

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00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,720
covenant was polygamy.
Right.

276
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,560
I mean, 132 uses this language
and I I realize in the LDS

277
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,520
church contemporarily and and
the contemporary kind of shift

278
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,480
really was in 1933.
It's not until 1933 that we

279
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,920
really see this kind of movement
of language, especially I think

280
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,080
even more than new and
everlasting covenant.

281
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,160
So the idea of celestial
marriage that phrase the phrase

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00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,080
celestial marriage really kind
of is reimagined as monogamy in

283
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,520
the 19 in 1933 under Heber J
Grant.

284
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,520
But prior to that new and
everlasting covenant in

285
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,560
celestial marriage really were
polygamy in 1933.

286
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,200
Hebrew J Grant is the first to
say celestial marriage that is

287
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,160
an LDS people will hear this as
kind of true to their

288
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,920
experience.
Hebrew J Grant says celestial

289
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,520
marriage, that is marriage for
time and eternity, and

290
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,000
polygamous or plural marriages
are not, are not synonymous

291
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,880
terms.
And that was a novel when he

292
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,800
says that, because previously, I
mean, if you look at the

293
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,080
language of 132, if you look at
the language of how ceilings

294
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:36,840
worked, this idea was that.
I mean, even the idea of eternal

295
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,360
marriage, like the problem with
removing 132 from the Canon is

296
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,800
if you remove the polygamy
revelation, you remove the idea

297
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,080
of eternal marriage.
This is a sticky situation.

298
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,280
Eternal family's eternal
marriage is something so near

299
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,360
and dear to LDS people's heart
that moving 132 would be, I

300
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:55,720
mean, that would be a
devastation.

301
00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:01,560
And so there was from the very
beginning a deep enmeshment of

302
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,360
the idea of an eternal marriage
and a polygamous marriage.

303
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,920
And so when John Taylor says
noon everlasting covenant, I've

304
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,200
heard many people say, you know,
this includes all covenants,

305
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:17,400
this includes your baptism, this
include, and maybe I mean it, I

306
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,800
guess it is true that baptism is
a everlasting covenant.

307
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,840
But in the context John Taylor
was writing in hiding being

308
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:35,160
asked specifically to go to the
Lord about polygamy with who

309
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,360
John Taylor was with his
previous polygamy revelations.

310
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,080
If you take this document in the
whole of its context, John

311
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,240
Taylor's talking about polygamy.
Yeah, and I wanted to draw that

312
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,000
out cuz.
And I understand having been in

313
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,480
both worlds, right?
When, when I, I was getting

314
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,360
questions like, well, how does
this deal with polygamy, right?

315
00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:58,320
I don't, I don't see the word
celestial plural marriage any,

316
00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:00,240
anywhere.
And I'm like, OK, you got to

317
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,400
understand the context.
And then you also have to

318
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,680
understand verbiage, right?
The verbiage has changed in, in

319
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,040
the mainstream church now.
And so it, I, I understand why

320
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,320
people come from so, so Taylor
has the revelation.

321
00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:16,560
He double s down.
Yeah, so John Taylor double s

322
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,400
down really hard.
And I mean, I one the

323
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,120
interesting thing is like,
that's kind of it.

324
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,800
It just kind of like fades into
the mist.

325
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,840
And so for that reason, the
story that I find most

326
00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,000
compelling is like, how does the
how does the church get it?

327
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,480
Like how, when do they get it?
Like that really is.

328
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:34,920
And I mean, we learned that from
the documents that were released

329
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,000
last weekend.
And we'll talk about that.

330
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,800
We, we do, we do get a picture
that we we knew the history, but

331
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,960
now we have the hard copy
documents that kind of show the

332
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,160
history.
I mentioned.

333
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:50,760
Samuel Woolley kind of briefly
says, hey, John W Taylor notes

334
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:56,560
something.
The grand irony, I think, is

335
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,920
that shortly before the 1st
manifesto in 1890, we do have

336
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,680
one other person that makes
reference to the existence of a

337
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:06,760
revelation in his diary.
Really.

338
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,760
He and it's, you know, it's,
it's a private, it's just

339
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,440
private.
It's he just notes I have heard

340
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,680
about this revelation and that's
our boy Heber J Grant.

341
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,520
So as early as 1890, Heber J
Grant.

342
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,240
So he at this time, to be clear,
Heber J Grant hasn't seen it

343
00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,880
necessarily.
He hasn't seen copies

344
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,720
necessarily.
But as early as 1890, Heber J

345
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,960
Grant is noting that there is
the existence of a revelation

346
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:40,440
from John Taylor about polygamy
or about the new and everlasting

347
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,160
covenant.
So I think that's kind of

348
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,920
interesting.
We also have Abraham H Canon in

349
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:52,560
1892.
He notes that John W Taylor has

350
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:57,160
referenced A revelation from his
dad, but that's it.

351
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,600
So we have Samuel Woolley, we
have Hebrew J Grant, and we have

352
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,240
Abraham Canon.
After Abraham Canon's diary

353
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:09,400
entry in 1892, we do not hear a
single thing about this again

354
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,680
until the turn of the century
until 19 O 9.

355
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:17,320
Now that leaves a lot of room
for grand stories to emerge

356
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,920
about it.
And we will talk about kind of

357
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,840
the lore around it and how
especially Lauren Woolley kind

358
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:30,240
of really constructs a really
fantastic narrative that Lauren

359
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:36,280
Woolley has a lot of stories,
but most of the stories about

360
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,240
the 1886 revelation, most of the
narrative is an is after the

361
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,720
fact.
What I just relayed.

362
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,440
This kind of like bare bones
revelation happens, two guys get

363
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:51,560
married a month later, and then
there's three diary entries.

364
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,440
That is all we know
contemporarily.

365
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:59,160
So the, so the, the that
revelation, the 1886 revelation,

366
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,520
it's not well known amongst it's
not in the the zeitgeist I guess

367
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,600
of Mormonism at that point for
your average lay member people.

368
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,360
For anyone, I mean, we have many
Diaries.

369
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:17,040
No one is talking about it.
And I mean, there's many reasons

370
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,480
for that is, or potential
reasons.

371
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,240
The first, which I can't stress
enough, it's not novel.

372
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:26,920
John Taylor has said this so
many times.

373
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,000
So like in, in some people's
mind, it would be fair to say

374
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,520
like, what's one more time that
John Taylor's going off on this?

375
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,480
You know, for some people,
whatever, it's just another

376
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,520
moment.
For other people, that's a bad

377
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,360
look.
The Edmunds Act went into effect

378
00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:46,200
in 1885 and now your guy is
saying we're never abandoning

379
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,080
it.
Probably not a great time to be

380
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,320
like shouting it from the
rooftops.

381
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,000
Another kind of significant
thing.

382
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,400
People keep Diaries.
People put, people put

383
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,600
challenging things in their
Diaries.

384
00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,600
People write.
Most people don't write criminal

385
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,960
activity in their Diaries.
Right, right, right.

386
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,600
The other thing is, again,
they're under persecution,

387
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:07,400
right?
I mean.

388
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,960
Yeah, I mean, I, I have read
Joseph Muster's Diaries front to

389
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,760
back, shout out we are
publishing them through

390
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,600
signature books.
So that'll be a big moment for

391
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,680
people.
And he is reticent to write

392
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:24,600
criminal activity.
Like he doesn't.

393
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,400
I mean, he writes some
embarrassing things.

394
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,600
I think my favorite account that
Joseph Muster writes is when his

395
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:34,760
when his wife Ellis is leaving
him and he writes Ellis is

396
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,800
leaving.
She finds my work obnoxious.

397
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,640
And I'm like, man, And so people
will do that.

398
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,400
But like, you're not going to
write things that will

399
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,400
incriminate the man that you
believe is the mouthpiece of God

400
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,840
in your diary when the
government has now created a

401
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,360
situation where they could seize
your diary for a criminal

402
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:56,640
investigation.
Like you're not, you're just not

403
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,160
going to do that.
And so we don't see anything,

404
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:06,160
and we don't really kind of see
much until John Taylor's son

405
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,840
comes on the scene.
And John Taylor's son, John W

406
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:15,160
Taylor, is a big part of the
story because he's the one that

407
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:23,320
starts kind of saying, hey, my
dad said something in 1886.

408
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:29,280
The 1890 manifesto happens.
Wilford Woodruff says it doesn't

409
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,840
end polygamy, but he puts on a
good show about the end of

410
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,720
polygamy.
I mean nineteen O 4 because of

411
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,040
the Reid Smoot hearing.
It's also kind of a good show,

412
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,320
but he puts on a good show.
And John W Taylor believes his

413
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,160
dad, like of course he does.
And I'm actually consistently

414
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,560
surprised that within the
fundamentalist movement we have

415
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:56,320
a lot of figures that emerge
like Lawrence C Woolly, John W

416
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,160
Woolly.
I'm actually always surprised

417
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,440
that like a kind of folk cult of
John W Taylor never emerged of

418
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,880
like stories about, well, he
ordained me too, you know,

419
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,800
because he's so believable to
have done something like that.

420
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,880
But he didn't to our knowledge,
to what we know.

421
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,280
But John W Taylor starts kind of
talking, telling people.

422
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:22,960
My dad had this revelation in in
19 O 7.

423
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,160
Things start to heat up a bit
because John West Woolley starts

424
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,080
to perform plural marriages.
Now, John West Woolley, this is

425
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:37,240
the house John Taylor was in.
John West Woolley's son becomes

426
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,480
a prominent figure in the later
fundamentalist movement.

427
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:45,120
John West Woolley is, you know,
close to John Taylor and he

428
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:46,640
starts to perform plural
marriages.

429
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,000
The problem again is he doesn't
say why.

430
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,720
Like he never mentions.
John Taylor told me he never

431
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,880
mentions 1886, but he does
mention he does to start to

432
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:03,440
perform plural marriages.
And that's interesting given the

433
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:09,640
timeline of what happens next.
But two years later in 19 O 9,

434
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,520
Joseph Fielding Smith, the
president who becomes the

435
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,360
president of the oldest church
that Joseph Fielding Smith, he

436
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:22,240
obtains the revelation and he
makes a copy.

437
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,160
Why does he make a copy?
He makes a copy for the church

438
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:33,680
historians office.
Now this is a interesting

439
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,640
question for so this is
interesting for two reasons.

440
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:43,600
The 1st is Joseph Feeling Smith.
If you're handed something fake,

441
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,640
are you going to make a copy to
put it in the archive?

442
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,200
No.
I don't know.

443
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,640
I don't, I don't know.
This is my speculation.

444
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,680
I don't think so.
I think that he always believed

445
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,160
it was in John Taylor's hand,
because why else is he putting

446
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,520
it in the archive of the church?
The other reason why I think

447
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,280
this is interesting is that from
the time I started studying

448
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,800
fundamentalism, people
speculated that Joseph Fielding

449
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,840
Smith was in on it and that he
had obtained keys from John

450
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,200
Taylor to perform plural
marriages.

451
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:17,200
Now, I don't think that happened
because there's no record of

452
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,320
that.
But Joseph Fielding Smith and

453
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,200
Joseph like he was, he was kind
of in this story for a long time

454
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,520
now.
I think this was just because he

455
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,520
was part of the quorum.
He, you know, John W Taylor's

456
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,200
starting to talk about this
story and claiming this is in my

457
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,720
dad's hand.
John W Taylor is an apostle.

458
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,800
Assumably, we we trust him as an
honest narrator of his dad's

459
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,920
life.
So Joseph Fielding Smith makes a

460
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,760
copy of the document.
Who sees it at that point?

461
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,800
Who sees the original?
We don't know it.

462
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:01,160
I believe that.
I believe it would make sense

463
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,840
that the other members of the
Quorum would have like known he

464
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,440
would have talked about it.
So we can safely kind of assume

465
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,960
that at the time.
Heber J Grant and others, we

466
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,040
would have maybe seen it, but we
don't know.

467
00:28:17,120 --> 00:28:18,600
It is safe to assume, but we
don't know.

468
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,800
But in 1911, and this is where
things kind of heat up in terms

469
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:31,480
of what we found, what was
released on Saturday in 1911,

470
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,800
John W Taylor comes up for
excommunication.

471
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:43,840
And John W Taylor, his defense,
which is a good defense, He's

472
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,360
allowed to present a case for
why should we keep you?

473
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,840
And he brings out a copy of his
dad's revelation and is able to

474
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:57,600
say, because my dad said so,
that's a bold move.

475
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,240
And he looks at the council and
he says, you have a choice right

476
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,440
now to side with the government
or to side with the Lord.

477
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:11,400
What are you going to do?
And the Church excommunicates

478
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,920
him.
And Matthias Cowley as well, if

479
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,720
I'm not mistaken, right?
And Matthias Cowley, who is also

480
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,280
a figure that I'm surprised
never got kind of like a cult

481
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:28,160
following.
Now, that's what a bold move.

482
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:35,040
So in 1911 he does this.
A detail of the excommunications

483
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,000
in this period that I think are
so significant that is worth

484
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,200
mentioning.
We are not at a point where

485
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,360
there is a fundamentalist
movement in the LDS church.

486
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,840
This is 1 religion and nineteen
O 9.

487
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,040
Joseph Musser.
He goes up for his first

488
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,920
disciplinary hearing and nothing
happens, which is very

489
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,520
interesting and nothing happens
for Musser because at the time

490
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,880
Musser is small potatoes
compared to like John W Taylor.

491
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,360
Musser isn't.
Muster is getting sealed

492
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,080
polygamously, but he's not doing
them himself.

493
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,000
And Muster is also not like
standing on the pulpit being

494
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,520
like we need to defy the
government.

495
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,920
So in short, the differences
between John W Taylor and Joseph

496
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,920
Muster in this period is that
John W Taylor has a level of

497
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:31,000
authority and standing in the
church that is different.

498
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,000
And John W Taylor is
embarrassing.

499
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,040
Right.
Because and he's doing the

500
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,560
ceilings.
So this is an important

501
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:45,640
distinction is that really prior
to the 1920s, if you are being

502
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,080
sealed polygamously by someone,
if you like, find a guy to do it

503
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:49,680
for you, you're not going to get
in trouble.

504
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,480
You are going to get in trouble
if you're doing them.

505
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,240
And this is especially true John
W Wooley.

506
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,800
The reason he gets in trouble is
there's a lot of wild, like most

507
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,200
plural ceilings at the time.
I mentioned this on a different

508
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,040
interview, but when all these
people think of ceiling, they

509
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,560
have this vision of you come out
of the temple and everyone's

510
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,040
clapping.
Plural ceilings in this time.

511
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,600
They're happening in cars and
they're happening in houses.

512
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,480
And like your stake president is
doing it like it's or your

513
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,000
patriarch.
The reason why John W Willey

514
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,480
gets in trouble is he decides to
just keep doing them in the Salt

515
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,200
Lake Temple.
Well, there's a case to be made

516
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:34,480
for being bold.
I mean and.

517
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,480
So he's, he's his own vibe.
He's going to be, he's going to

518
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,480
get in trouble.
But the reason why these

519
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,360
discipline hearings are so wild
to me is that 1911 to paint this

520
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,640
picture, 1911, John W Taylor is
called into a disciplinary

521
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,480
hearing.
And in his hand is his dad's

522
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,640
revelation.
And he is being stared down by

523
00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,880
Heber Jay Grant, who will later
go on to deny polygamy by and

524
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,920
who is the last man to be an LDS
prophet who was a polygamist

525
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,320
himself.
And we also have Anthony Ivins,

526
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,720
who most people would kind of
maybe know the name Ivins, UT

527
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,400
like, you know, Anthony Ivins,
he, he was an apostle.

528
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:23,200
But what most people don't know
about Anthony Ivins is, out of

529
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,920
anyone in the post manifesto
polygamy period, he did the most

530
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:33,400
plural ceilings out of anyone.
And he was sitting in that room

531
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,800
prepared to excommunicate John W
Taylor for doing this, for doing

532
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,800
something even lesser than what
he was doing.

533
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,200
You know, I had Michael Ness on
here.

534
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,560
I'll say it was a year ago,
might be a little more.

535
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,160
I don't know.
At at 190 episodes, these things

536
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,880
are starting to run together.
So forgive if I mess up the time

537
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,320
frame, but we did A5 part series
on the Life and Times of John W

538
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:02,800
Taylor because you in in my
estimation, John W Taylor is

539
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,840
kind of like Joseph Muster in
that he is a witness to pioneer

540
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,440
Mormonism turning into modern
day Mormonism, right?

541
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,240
Also, if you're into like cloak
and dagger spy thrillers, you're

542
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,000
going to love this section of
history, right?

543
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,640
Because what, because like
Taylor at times doesn't even I,

544
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,080
I think to myself, how did he
know who to trust, right?

545
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,320
Because you did not have a
united quorum, right.

546
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,400
And so it it's a fascinating
thing.

547
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,400
But Ivans is a huge player
through all of this, right?

548
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,480
When, when they're ride and die
together, right.

549
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,280
I mean, you got guys like
setting up hotel rooms, you

550
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,320
know, when they travel in each
other's names to throw off the,

551
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,520
I mean, it's, it's bonkers.
And so and, and look, that's

552
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,440
been something I thought about
with, with Grant a lot, right?

553
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,920
Let's not forget Grant was a
polygamist himself, right?

554
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:02,320
So how, how do you go from,
yeah, bro, I got your back ride

555
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,720
and die forever to sorry, dude,
I got to cut you, right?

556
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,120
I mean, it's a massive shift and
tragic on a lot of levels.

557
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,480
Oh, yeah.
I mean, and what you said about

558
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:16,800
things being divided, this what
that is absolutely like, it

559
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,320
cannot be stressed enough that
the quorum was deeply divided on

560
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,960
what to do about this issue.
A lot of them, you know, have

561
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:28,000
plural wives still.
A lot of them are, I mean Joseph

562
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,719
F Smith.
The Reed Smoot hearings are a

563
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,480
nightmare because Joseph Smith's
plural wife has a baby during

564
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,719
the hearings, while Joseph F
Smith is like there's no

565
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:37,159
polygamy anymore.
Right.

566
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,880
What and so this is a nightmare.
But I mean, I remember with with

567
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,800
Joseph Messer, he goes to his
first disciplinary hearing and

568
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,120
instead of leaving with kind of
like this sense of remorse of I

569
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,040
must amend my ways, whatever he
writes in his diary, he's like,

570
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,719
I'm left.
He says, like, what I'm left

571
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,080
with from the disciplinary
hearing is the realization that

572
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,000
the quorum is not united and
that I'm willing to lay down my

573
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:09,200
life for this.
And so like these disciplinary

574
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,520
hearings also aren't helping the
situation because, and I mean,

575
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,960
this remains the case, and I've
said this quite a bit, and I've

576
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:22,560
also talked to leaders in the
LDS Church about this, that you

577
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:28,880
excommunicate someone for being
a fundamentalist Mormon, you're

578
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,240
taking their Mormonism to an 11.
Yeah.

579
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,720
Because all of their heroes had
that happen to them.

580
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,520
Like, what are you doing?
Like don't.

581
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,520
If you don't want to draw
attention, don't make a martyr.

582
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:43,280
Yep.
And so John W Taylor is axed.

583
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,800
And then, of course, during this
meeting, he discusses the

584
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,480
revelation.
And it is his wife, his plural

585
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:58,400
wife, Nelly, who ultimately
brings her husband's copy to the

586
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:04,320
church historian's office.
But it's again, she brings her

587
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,960
husband's copy, which now we
have seen.

588
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,280
But in 19 O 9, a copy was
already in there from Joseph

589
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:20,400
Fielding Smith.
So before the excommunication

590
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,080
hearing, he's like holding a
copy.

591
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,520
And they have one in the
archive.

592
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:28,960
Joseph Fielding Smith made that
copy.

593
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:33,880
Heber J Grant talked about it.
Remember, in 1890, he noted in

594
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,400
his diary that it existed.
Anthony Ivins has been running

595
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,240
through Mexico stealing people
polygamously.

596
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,640
And now we're in a situation
where John W Taylor's

597
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,800
excommunicated.
Oh.

598
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:53,400
Man, and I just want to trace
just kind of sum up the the

599
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:58,680
history of the dock.
So Taylor Taylor senior pens it

600
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,560
John Taylor pens it.
It kind of goes out of

601
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,000
circulation, although there is
some references to it every so

602
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,240
often.
So we got a continual chain, so

603
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:14,000
to speak of at least it being
while it's not in every Mormon's

604
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,480
mind, those who are in the know
about what's going on, there's a

605
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,200
continual hey, this is a thing
nineteen O 9.

606
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:25,680
Joseph F Smith makes a copy and
then he Joseph Fielding.

607
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:26,760
Thank you.
Who?

608
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,720
Who did I say?
Joseph F.

609
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,920
Remember the F?
OK, Joseph Fielding makes a copy

610
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:37,960
of it, sticks it in the vaults.
It's brought up again in 1911,

611
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,840
you said or.
No, that copy just kind of stays

612
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,440
there.
And in 1911, John W Taylor

613
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,000
brings.
Brings a copy his copyright.

614
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,160
And I mean, of course, there are
copies of this clearly at this

615
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,880
point that John W Taylor
circulating will note as well

616
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,760
that when the fundamentals
movement, when kind of rustling

617
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,760
begins about that, they start
making copies very quickly.

618
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:08,680
I was talking to Brian Buchanan,
who I'm doing the Joseph Muster

619
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,440
Diaries with, and he actually
brought up something that's so

620
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,400
interesting of, you know, when
things go into the archive, they

621
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,440
are scanned and photographed.
And we have that incredibly

622
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,160
beautiful high resolution scan
that we can all now see on the

623
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,480
church archive.
And he, I called him yesterday,

624
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:30,800
we were talking about this and
he was like, who do you think

625
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:32,520
photographed it?
Yeah.

626
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,120
Like who is the person in the
archive who has probably heard

627
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,400
for a long time it's not real
and then was the one who had to

628
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,600
scan it?
Yeah, yeah.

629
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,960
No.
And and and that's that's the

630
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,720
other thing that that I couldn't
help but think about, you know,

631
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,320
going forward to today.
I was thinking about that as I

632
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,760
saw the scan.
It's like, OK, somebody knew it

633
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,560
was there the whole time.
Somebody knew it was there,

634
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,880
right.
And and that that that brings up

635
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,560
a good question, question which
we'll cover here and here in a

636
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,640
few, but OK.
So after John W Taylor's ex

637
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:10,200
excommunication, the split
obviously happens.

638
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:16,840
Yeah, we start to see, I mean,
by this point, 1911, you have a

639
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,040
fleet of people who've been
disciplined.

640
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,920
Right.
Or at least maybe not

641
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,480
excommunicated, but have had
talking to's by their state

642
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,800
president.
And so obviously most of the

643
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:30,120
people are in Salt, the Salt
Lake Valley.

644
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:31,560
They're all going to find each
other.

645
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,320
And we're better to find each
other than at Nathaniel Baldwin,

646
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,480
the inventor of headphones
House, right?

647
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,920
Of course, he maybe, I don't
know which, he's an interesting

648
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:41,880
character.
I mean, he was never a

649
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,800
polygamist himself, but he was
deeply sympathetic to these

650
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,840
people, these families.
People start to Nathaniel

651
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,200
Baldwin in this kind of new
iteration for the 20th century,

652
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,200
and Nathaniel Baldwin starts to
make mention of it.

653
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,000
I don't know where he first
hears about it.

654
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:07,480
However, in the night late
1910s, he starts hosting

655
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,080
meetings at his house.
And John W Willy's son is there

656
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,240
who is starting to talk about.
The revelation, so we don't know

657
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:18,520
I don't know when Nathaniel
Baldwin it becomes Privy to

658
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,920
this, but he starts to hold
meetings at his house with all

659
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,000
these disenfranchised Mormons.
He also hires all of them to

660
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:28,360
like, right, give them
employment.

661
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,160
They're losing their jobs.
And in 1921, that's the

662
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,040
earliest.
So I I date 19/21 as the

663
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,760
beginning of the Mormon
fundamentalist movement for no

664
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,800
other reason than that is the
moment that Lauren C Wally

665
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,040
stands up Nathaniel Baldwin's
home in front of a group of

666
00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:48,960
people and says, let me tell you
a story.

667
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,480
And he proclaims the story of
the 1886 revelation to this

668
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,080
group of people.
And this would have been a bit.

669
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,800
I mean, he's vindicating them
like he's telling them like,

670
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,680
you've all been disciplined,
like you've all been shunned.

671
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,720
You've all lost your jobs, but
you're all right.

672
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,920
And you're, you're doing what
John Taylor has asked you to do.

673
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,920
So this is a big moment.
Now, Lauren Seewilly does a

674
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:17,800
second thing that you and I are
going to disagree on many

675
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,960
people.
Lauren Sewell says in 1886, John

676
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,520
Taylor receives A revelation
that is true.

677
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:30,960
He also says John Taylor
ordained men to a priesthood

678
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:40,200
council to ensure that happens.
Now will agree to disagree on

679
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,920
whether or not that happened.
Woolley then claims this is his

680
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:47,360
ability to ordain people to the
office of high priest apostle,

681
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,040
where many Woolley 8
fundamentalist groups then draw

682
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,560
out their authority.
This is where Joseph W Messer

683
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:57,880
receives his ordination to a
high priest apostle.

684
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,320
Joseph W Messer is special among
the group because he had his

685
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,200
second anointing.
So he's also kind of in a class

686
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,960
of his own.
But John Y Barlow, Charles

687
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,960
Zitting, this is where the
fundamentalist movement kind of

688
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:17,480
emerges as its own unique thing
between 29 and 19331931.

689
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:23,320
But now the long standing
question between historians of

690
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,000
fundamentalism and Mormon
fundamentalists is, did the

691
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,360
ordinations happen?
I'm one who says no, that they

692
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,080
didn't.
And the reason I say no is

693
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,000
there's no contemporary evidence
for it.

694
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,240
Again, I told you everything we
know about 1886.

695
00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:38,440
There's no information at all.
Right.

696
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,720
But the problem, the problem
that the LDS Church has now

697
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:46,800
placed themself in by releasing
the revelation, because you're

698
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,360
going to release the ordination
record next.

699
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,440
Like is there like, what do you,
what's going on?

700
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,600
Like, like you said, there's not
a revelation.

701
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:58,080
You also said there's not an
ordination record is 1 different

702
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,440
than the other.
And so, granted, I still

703
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,040
maintain that there is not an
ordination record, but the

704
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,720
release of the 1886 revelation
does cast doubt on a narrative

705
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:12,160
generally about polygamy
history.

706
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:17,960
Right, right.
Again, there's no contemporary

707
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:23,520
evidence, but but all to say,
when Woolly starts to tell this

708
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,520
story, and I use story very
broadly, Lawrence C Woolly has

709
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,600
many stories about his life,
meaning the Lamanite prophet

710
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,480
goes down to the Yucatan
Peninsula for some reason, I

711
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,440
don't know.
He has a lot of great stories

712
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,160
about the world, but he also
like Ordains.

713
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,640
Who did he meet?
Oh, he said he he said he met a

714
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:46,800
few people.
Gandhi.

715
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,520
Teddy Roosevelt.
Yes.

716
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,360
He ordained Teddy Roosevelt to
the office of high priest

717
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,520
apostle.
So I mean this Lawrence C Well,

718
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:58,360
they were reliable there.
He also claims he was probably

719
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,320
like the CIAI don't know.
Was he a reliable narrator?

720
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:06,760
No.
So do I think that he?

721
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,720
No.
But all to say, his dad has been

722
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:13,600
in the game a long time.
I mentioned John W Woolley is

723
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,040
doing polygamous ceilings in 19
O 7.

724
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,960
He's excommunicated.
But this is where kind of two

725
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:26,040
movements really kind of begin.
And around this time, we start

726
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,800
to see the first LDS reaction to
this because the story is

727
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,680
spreading.
And of course, it is spreading

728
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,200
because if you are
disenfranchised, if you have

729
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,920
been excommunicated, if you have
lost your job, if you have lost

730
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,360
your family, and suddenly
someone is like, you've been

731
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,880
right all this time, you're
probably going to join that

732
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,840
movement like.
And so it does.

733
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,320
It never gets, of course, to the
same scale as the LDS Church,

734
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:54,560
but it does garner sympathy.
And because of that, it starts

735
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:58,000
to kind of slowly raise some
issues in the LDS leadership of

736
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,920
what do we do, How do we handle
this?

737
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,240
And the first iteration of that
is in 1923 with a man named J

738
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:09,160
Reuben Clark.
And at the time, you know, when

739
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,120
we imagine J Reuben Clark, when
many listeners, especially LDS

740
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,240
listeners, imagine J Reuben
Clark, they think of a guy who's

741
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,480
an apostle or a leader.
But J Reuben Clark is an

742
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,400
attorney.
He is.

743
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,400
He's a attorney who is LDS and
embarrassed.

744
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,640
And why is he embarrassed, you
ask?

745
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:36,080
Well, he's embarrassed because
his uncle is John West Woolley.

746
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:42,320
Right.
And his dad is a unapologetic,

747
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,480
unrepentant polygamist.
And so for someone like J Ribbon

748
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,080
Clark, who has political
ambition, this is an

749
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:51,480
embarrassing story of your
family are criminals and.

750
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,280
They.
Do.

751
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:59,760
And so J Rubin Clark pens the
first kind of memorandum in kind

752
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:06,200
of legalese, without using leg
me to try to explain away the

753
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,640
revelation without saying he's
talking about the revelation.

754
00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:13,720
Wow, And you know, it's
important to note too, is that

755
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,120
look, and and I'm not trying to
trash talk the guy.

756
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,640
I'm just telling you, like I see
it.

757
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:26,160
He's not, he's not even like
he's not theologian, right

758
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:31,120
Clark, he's barely active by all
accounts while he's living in

759
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,960
DC, right?
I mean, he's not there.

760
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:39,480
His appointment seems to come at
the behest of what, in my

761
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,720
opinion, and, and again feel
free to correct me if I'm wrong,

762
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:46,120
looks like he's an appointment
for the times because of what

763
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:50,160
the church is going through and
also because of his connections

764
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,680
in Washington.
Great argument to be made for

765
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:58,760
that.
And he seems, he seems to be one

766
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,200
of the ones and, and that's the
other thing that happened in

767
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,520
this dump of documents that we
got is there's a letter from him

768
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,000
in there that talks about and
and I'm, I'm paraphrasing, but

769
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,400
essentially we need to deep 6
this thing.

770
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,440
Yes, yeah.
And I think that's the document

771
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,320
in the folder that's most
significant because we see the

772
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:24,160
attempt to conceal it.
And he does kind of the first

773
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,960
attempt at this where.
Well, he, he pens a memorandum

774
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:33,120
in 1923 where it wouldn't seem
weird if you didn't know that

775
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,040
there was this document
circulating because he mentions

776
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:40,840
something about polygamy without
using the word polygamy.

777
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:50,600
And he he basically says that
seed key is an authority and at

778
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,920
the point of death.
And So what he ends up writing

779
00:47:53,920 --> 00:48:00,960
is a memorandum that basically
says 1886 Revelation is void

780
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,880
about saying that.
And you know, at the time, you

781
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,240
know, he's really kind of
extrapolating on how authority

782
00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:09,960
works in the church, how
stealing keys work, how they end

783
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,640
at the moment of death, how the
keys to perform plural ceilings.

784
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,720
And at death, you can't kind of
pass these on like you can with

785
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:21,720
other things.
And at face value, that's kind

786
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:22,960
of like a, oh, that's
interesting.

787
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:25,000
But when you realize that
there's this document

788
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:28,160
circulating with a group that
just in 1921 has started to

789
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,600
promote this, that in 1923,
we're starting to circulate it

790
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,240
in pamphlets in the Salt Lake
Valley that Joseph White, that

791
00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:38,240
Joseph Muster is making prints
of it.

792
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,200
Joseph Muster, who is a very
compelling writer and speaker,

793
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:45,280
is starting to talk about this.
They are all kind of uniting

794
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,280
around this.
And then all of a sudden in 1923

795
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:50,760
someone is like making these
cryptic claims about by ceiling

796
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,000
authority ends at the point of
death and so therefore any

797
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,280
previous revelation on the
matter doesn't hold water.

798
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,360
It doesn't make sense in Mormon
theology, right?

799
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:03,080
No, no, it, it doesn't.
And and then and then again we

800
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,360
kind of like, I think there's an
attempt at, you know, we

801
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,760
excommunicated people in the
1911 let's let it die and then

802
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,920
1923 we're releasing the
memorandum.

803
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,800
Let's just kind of see if it
dies, but the Mormon

804
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,000
Fundamentals movement doesn't
die is the problem.

805
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:29,320
And so in 1931, the last kind of
iteration of this is J Reuben

806
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:33,240
Clark or Heber J Grant, the prep
now president of the LDS Church,

807
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:35,880
begins to make a statement make
begins to make statements to

808
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:42,680
statements about polygamy.
And in 1931, he starts to

809
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,960
basically say we're
excommunicating you.

810
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,640
It doesn't matter if you are in
leadership, it doesn't matter if

811
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:52,040
you're performing pro ceilings,
It doesn't matter if you are

812
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,840
practicing polygamy.
And the wildest one, it does.

813
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,920
If you believe in it, you're
out.

814
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,000
And so Hebrew Jake, Hebrew Jake
Grant is the one that starts to

815
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,840
make excommunication for people
who believe in it.

816
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:08,320
So this becomes also thought
policing of do you believe in

817
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,080
the principle of marriage?
Because it's, you know, the

818
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:15,480
reality is if you are living
like, how do you know?

819
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:21,160
And so the question, how do you
know people think it or practice

820
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,880
it or whatever is this is when
we start to get neighbors

821
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:27,280
turning against neighbors.
This is when we start to get

822
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,120
state presidents telling on
people.

823
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:34,520
I mean, to put into perspective,
if you can imagine like you talk

824
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,160
to your state president in a
confidential setting and he goes

825
00:50:37,160 --> 00:50:39,240
and tells on you for being a
polygamist like this is going

826
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:41,520
to, you're going to feel deep
betrayal at this moment.

827
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,920
And then 1933 really is the end
of the story.

828
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,560
And it's also the last time that
we hear anything about the

829
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:55,640
revelation in 1933.
The 1931 excommunications still

830
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,240
aren't ramping up as intensely
as we want them to.

831
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,760
Loyalty do start to go out that
you have to be loyal to the LDS

832
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,560
Church.
Loyalty to the LDS Church means

833
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,560
an abandonment of polygamy.
We especially see this in places

834
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,960
that become kind of strongholds
of the fundamentalist movement.

835
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,640
What becomes Short Creek ends up
get the Zion parks, what was the

836
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:21,960
Zion Park Stake gets a lot of
loyalty oaths sent out that you

837
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,880
have to sign later on if you go
to prison.

838
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:27,600
There's an easy way out of
prison.

839
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:32,080
It's to sign a loyalty oath.
And so this becomes a problem.

840
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:40,760
But in 1933, J Reuben Clark
writes a statement to Church

841
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:45,720
News that is published in Church
News and it says it is alleged

842
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,640
on September 26th, 27, John
Taylor receives A revelation.

843
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:56,680
The purported text dot dot dot
So J Reuben Clark writes to

844
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:00,160
Church News casting doubt on the
documents existence.

845
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,560
Heber, J Grant, Anthony W Ivins.
Sign off on this Now.

846
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:10,640
He's very good at he's a lawyer.
He's very good writing things.

847
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,200
So he never says it doesn't
exist.

848
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,240
Right, pretended is the word he
uses a lot.

849
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,280
A purported, A purported text.
So is he saying it's a forgery?

850
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,600
Is he saying it's fake?
He's very good at that.

851
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,280
Subsequently, of course,
famously, Heber J Grant stands

852
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,680
up at general conference and
unleashes what becomes the third

853
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:37,680
manifesto where he says that
celestial marriage is monogamy.

854
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:43,240
And he says the purported plural
marriages of the so-called

855
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:48,200
fundamentalists are fake and
they're purported revelation or

856
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,920
they're pretended revelation and
that's it.

857
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:57,240
So the last we hear about the
document is Heber J Grant.

858
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:04,080
Heber J Grant, who in 1890 wrote
in his diary that he heard about

859
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:09,440
a John Taylor revelation.
Heber J Grant, who in 19 O 9

860
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,600
likely knew that Joseph Fielding
Smith had made a copy of it.

861
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:19,400
Heber J Grant, who in 1911 saw
John W Taylor's copy.

862
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:25,600
Heber J Grant, The polygamist.
Heber J Grant very close friends

863
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:30,320
with Anthony W Ivins the the
face of Post manifesto Polygamy

864
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,240
in Mexico.
Heber J Grant says the pretended

865
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,960
revelation of the so-called
fundamentalists.

866
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,480
Now you hit on something good
that I always like to throw in

867
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,160
when I can.
Someday I'm going to write a

868
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,480
book about the five stages of
becoming a Mormon

869
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:46,800
fundamentalist.
Now, one of those stages is

870
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,840
going to be a deep, white hot,
seething hate for Wilford

871
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,720
Woodruff.
And then you're going to do some

872
00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:55,160
research and you're going to be
like, OK, probably shouldn't

873
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:58,840
have issued the manifesto, but I
can kind of sympathize, right?

874
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:00,960
Have the whole world coming down
on him.

875
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,880
And furthermore, he never meant
it, right?

876
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:08,280
It's my opinion that the reason
that the one that gets canonized

877
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,720
gets canonized as far as the
manifesto is because of the way

878
00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:14,720
he words it.
In my opinion, he words it so

879
00:54:14,720 --> 00:54:18,760
far from a revelation that a
Mormon would recognize that

880
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,040
everybody knows.
Meanwhile, meanwhile, the 1886

881
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,920
says thus saith the Lord.
Right, Exactly, exactly right.

882
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,640
And OK, so we have that.
And so that white hot seething

883
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,720
hatred that you had for Wilfred
Woodruff.

884
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,480
Well, that's going to change and
you're going to have a new white

885
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:41,080
hot seething hatred and it will
be for Hebrew J Grant because of

886
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,160
the things that you kind of
talked about, right.

887
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:48,920
I mean, it's, I, I try to be
very forgiving of historical

888
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,840
figures, right?
Because I don't like presentism.

889
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,760
I don't like looking back on
somebody and trying to judge

890
00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:01,160
them based on my own social
norms of the time, right?

891
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,800
I don't think that's fair.
Now, certainly you can do crappy

892
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,000
things and it's crappy
throughout history no matter

893
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:11,120
what, but I, I try to be careful
with Grant.

894
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:13,840
What I see is it's really hard
for me to get to that point.

895
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,360
It it's very hard when I see
all, it's not just one thing,

896
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,960
it's just over and over and over
and over and it's hard for me to

897
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,560
get past that.
Well, and I think the reason,

898
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:37,360
the reason why it bothers, why
the 1933 bothers me or I'm

899
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:43,800
sorry, 1931 in particular
bothers me because when he gets

900
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,080
up and starts talking about the
revelation, it becomes very or

901
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:51,520
about post manifesto polygamy.
It becomes very clear that it is

902
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:59,000
not an issue of doctrine.
It's not it's not even an issue

903
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,800
of authority.
It's not an issue of history.

904
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,800
It becomes very clear that it's
an issue of embarrassment.

905
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,320
And the kind of the
quintessential example of this

906
00:56:11,720 --> 00:56:16,400
is that in 1931, when he stands
up and he like he speaks on

907
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:21,960
this, he does a pretty robust
condemnation of those who,

908
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:26,200
quote, persist in teaching the
doctrine and maligning the

909
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,200
leaders of the church.
So Hebrew J Grant is not

910
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:34,800
necessarily upset with polygamy.
He's upset at fundamentalists

911
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:39,480
for saying for saying that, that
leaders of the LDS Church

912
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,800
continued polygamy.
It's so it's.

913
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:43,880
True.
Yep.

914
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,320
Yep, I was going to say, if I'm
not mistaken, this is the time

915
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,600
frame in which the the recommend
question.

916
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,480
Do you believe whoever Hebrew J
Grant in this point is the only

917
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:59,120
guy authorized to exercise the
keys of the priesthood right?

918
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:06,120
We also see the question of in
19, I believe 1935 don't quote

919
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,200
me on that date.
It's like the one date that I

920
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,920
don't have.
We also it it's AI think it's

921
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,800
1935 that that's when the
question, the temper recommend

922
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:16,680
question.
Do you associate with groups?

923
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,000
Yeah.
Whatever about the LDS Church,

924
00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:25,480
this is also when we get the the
children of polygamist families

925
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,120
cannot be baptized into the
Aldous church.

926
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:33,880
This is when we get kind of
small, many small moves that

927
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,160
shape a broader culture of
animosity against polygamists.

928
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:43,520
Now, I say many small moves, but
of course for fundamentalists

929
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:46,560
that these are all very kind of
big things that the Aldous

930
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,880
Church does to create a hostile
environment.

931
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,600
But they do kind of lay lay the
groundwork of small things that

932
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:54,760
really do create create a
hostile environment.

933
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,640
But I mean, it, it is the case
that, you know, by this time

934
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,200
Truth magazine is starting, we
start to see the publication of

935
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,600
pamphlets that the
fundamentalists, I mean, Joseph

936
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:11,920
Messer has lost all of his jobs
for being a unrepentant

937
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,240
polygamist.
And Lauren Woolley comes to him

938
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:20,000
and says basically, basically
gives him a calling to promote

939
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,280
the fundamentals and to promote
fundamentalism.

940
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,640
And so he starts publishing
pretty widely pamphlets.

941
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:27,920
He starts publishing the
revelation, he starts publishing

942
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:32,000
the account of the ordinations,
and he starts publishing pretty

943
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:38,480
scathing op eds about the
leaders of the LDS Church.

944
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,600
Some of my favorites are Joseph
Muster does a conference report

945
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:48,760
twice a year in truth where he
like writes a commentary on all

946
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,920
the conference talks and like
with particular attention to a

947
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,840
bridge a grant like he just kind
of those hard and it is true.

948
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:02,560
But Joseph Messer does call
these men liars like he does.

949
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:04,760
He calls them liars for several
reasons.

950
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,400
He calls them liars for
concealing the revelation.

951
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,840
He calls them liars for saying
plural marriage ended when it

952
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:17,720
didn't.
And he calls them liars for not

953
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,360
really being lifelong
monogamists.

954
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:23,720
Right.
And so he does malign the

955
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:28,680
leaders of the LDS church.
And it wouldn't be maligning or

956
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,240
embarrassing if there wasn't
truth to what he was saying.

957
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:36,560
Like Joseph Muster actually, for
all of his maybe flaws, I don't

958
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:40,000
know, I happen to like the guy,
but for everything he was, he

959
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:41,800
never lied about it.
Right.

960
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,680
Right, he did.
He did promote kind of weird

961
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:52,280
Lauren Woolley stories, sure,
but he didn't lie about Anthony

962
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,960
Ivan's continuing polygamy.
Right.

963
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,200
Like he didn't.
And so so that's what has always

964
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:03,960
kind of bothered me about Huber
J Grant, is that him being

965
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:05,880
bothered by the maligning of the
leaders.

966
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:08,640
What it actually was is he was
angry at people for telling the

967
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,600
truth about it.
And that was that's a

968
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,800
frustrating reality.
And I think that the documents

969
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,360
we received on Saturday or were
made available on Saturday.

970
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,920
Everyone's very excited about
the revelation, of course they

971
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,800
are.
But what we find also is a paper

972
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:32,760
trail about this story that this
had this was this was concealed.

973
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:34,960
Yep.
OK.

974
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:38,160
So that's kind of the history
behind the revelation, which I

975
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,280
wanted to go over because I
think it was super important,

976
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:44,120
especially for, for the audience
who's not familiar with it, it's

977
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:45,760
important to, to lay that
groundwork.

978
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,480
And you're right, after 33 it,
it or 31, I can't remember.

979
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:50,880
It doesn't get brought up a
whole lot.

980
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:54,440
The, the most I could come up
with is a quote from Marky

981
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:58,600
Peterson in his book Way of the
Master, where he seems to take a

982
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:02,280
shot at anybody espoused in this
because of a pretended

983
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:05,480
revelation or whatever, kind of
a veiled shot there.

984
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:10,200
But it it largely goes away
outside of fundamentalist

985
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,720
circles.
And so I want to start talking

986
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:17,280
first kind of kind of about the
ramifications.

987
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:21,800
But before we do that,
Christina, do you have any like

988
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:26,440
I can get?
I'm going to try to be gentle

989
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:30,560
here.
The church is super concerned

990
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,360
with its good name, right?
That is a big thing.

991
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:40,160
So I could understand releasing
the revelation itself, but why

992
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:43,320
release the documents that are
kind of the smoking gun that

993
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,880
show, hey, this was suppressed?
Do we have any indication on why

994
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:55,280
that happened?
So I, what I can say is in

995
01:01:55,280 --> 01:02:02,280
general folder, like things are
usually released it like it it

996
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:06,240
this is a folder of documents
pertaining to each other and

997
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:08,000
pertaining to a particular
historical moment.

998
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:11,280
And they go together.
Now, one of the things that is

999
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:15,360
important that I, I really
remind people of as often as I

1000
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:19,720
can is the Church historians
Office of the Church History

1001
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:24,320
Library and the Quorum of the 12
apostles are not the same thing.

1002
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:31,160
They are the the church.
No, this is this will probably

1003
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,400
sound strange to some listeners.
The church did not release this

1004
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:37,760
document.
The Church historical library

1005
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,600
did.
Which of course it's all part of

1006
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:45,560
the LDS church.
Yes, but at the end of the day

1007
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:49,120
this was not like right?
It wasn't posted on LDS Newsroom

1008
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:56,720
and most things that come out of
CHL, the Church history library

1009
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:02,280
aren't because this wasn't like
this wasn't the church releasing

1010
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,440
it.
Now of course, the truth, like

1011
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:07,760
everyone, it is a hierarchical
institution.

1012
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:09,600
Everyone kind of knows when
things are released.

1013
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:14,480
But the LDS Church History
library, for anything people can

1014
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,920
say about the LDS church or
about its history or whatever,

1015
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:22,480
the Church History Library is a
world class archive.

1016
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:29,080
It is a world class library.
It it it employs some of the

1017
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:32,720
finest archivists that I've ever
met, some of the best people

1018
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:37,600
I've ever met who are incredibly
trained in.

1019
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:42,280
I mean, they pH DS in history
library science, really

1020
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:48,800
phenomenally gifted and trained
scholars run this library and

1021
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:54,080
they are people and the church
history library is an A lot of

1022
01:03:54,080 --> 01:04:01,720
ex Mormons will not like this,
but it is a library that it is

1023
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,760
an archive and it acts like one
more often than not.

1024
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,920
And so archives generally when
they release documents, they

1025
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:12,640
will release documents with the
context of the documents and in

1026
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,520
folders that kind of pertain to
the document.

1027
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:17,880
So if you're going to be
releasing papers that talk about

1028
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:19,720
a document, probably a good
thing to release a copy of the

1029
01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:22,200
document with it.
And so releasing a folder

1030
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,720
pertaining to the 1886
revelation of John Taylor, it

1031
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:30,040
makes sense for or what a normal
archive would do.

1032
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:33,880
I think kind of the questioning
around it comes from comes from

1033
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:37,320
what the document happens to be
of people being like, what's

1034
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:40,240
going on here?
You know, of course there are

1035
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:44,920
restrictions on what is what
people can see and what people

1036
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:46,960
can't see in the LDS Church
archive.

1037
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:52,600
But I do note more often than
not that the LDS church, I mean,

1038
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:54,600
because I hear a lot of people,
especially in the next Mormon

1039
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,120
community, talk about how the
LDS Church is secretive and

1040
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:04,040
whatever the LDS church is more
open about their you and me.

1041
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,480
Me, this random woman from
California, can go to the church

1042
01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,160
history library and just like,
rustle through documents.

1043
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:13,880
You don't get to go to the
Vatican and do that to my

1044
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:15,280
people.
Right.

1045
01:05:16,360 --> 01:05:19,440
You don't get to do that.
No, I it's a fairpoint.

1046
01:05:19,840 --> 01:05:22,440
I don't get to do that,
actually, and I'm a Roman

1047
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,320
Catholic.
And so it is the case, as much

1048
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:27,440
as there are hard feelings about
the history, as much as there

1049
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:29,640
are hard feelings about how the
Church operates, the oldest

1050
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:34,920
church history library is
incredibly receptive to even

1051
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:38,800
people without advanced degrees.
People who are just wanting to

1052
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,120
study their family are able to
go and look at things.

1053
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,200
So am I shocked the 1886
revelation was published?

1054
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:48,920
Yes, I am, but it is.
I also want to extend the

1055
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:53,160
reality that the LDS Church
history library is it does

1056
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:56,640
function like a world class
archive that does value history

1057
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,120
even when it's difficult.
And I think we can thank Leonard

1058
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:01,000
Arrington, former church
historian, for this.

1059
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,320
Who believe the history of the
church had to be shown words and

1060
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,600
all as he worded it and he
wanted to release.

1061
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:11,040
I mean he got he got in time in
trouble in his time for talking

1062
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:14,400
about how Brigham Young's sons
chewed tobacco right.

1063
01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:16,920
And so.
And they told him not to include

1064
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:19,840
that in his writing and he
argued about it.

1065
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,880
But yeah, I, I just want to note
that it is a kind of a way that

1066
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,320
his, that archives usually
operate.

1067
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,080
It makes a lot of sense from an
archival standpoint.

1068
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:34,680
I think a lot of my, our and my
own shock is just because there

1069
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,080
has been so much concealment
about this document.

1070
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,520
But for all of that to be said,
it is a.

1071
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:45,240
It is a world class archive.
Well, and, and look here, here's

1072
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,800
where so and hearing that
explanation, it makes sense,

1073
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,160
right, that it sounds like
that's just kind of the way

1074
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:53,360
these these documents are
released, right?

1075
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,280
Standard of maybe standard of
care is a good word.

1076
01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:01,080
Maybe it's not, but kind of how
how this how this work is done.

1077
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,160
When you release something, you
release the adjacent documents

1078
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:06,680
that give context and.
And I mean, I think a great

1079
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,480
example of this is when the
priesthood band conversation

1080
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:15,120
really got going again in 20,
18, I think people were really

1081
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:19,240
talking about this issue.
You know, the big question of

1082
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:21,360
was Elijah Abel?
Was he ordained to the

1083
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:22,880
priesthood by the hand of Joseph
Smith?

1084
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:29,440
And they could have released the
one page of the ordination

1085
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:32,320
record.
Instead, what the archive did,

1086
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,840
which was bold and incredible,
is they got a beautiful glass

1087
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:38,560
case and they put it in the
middle of the church history

1088
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:42,200
library with the entire
ordination record book.

1089
01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:43,640
So you could see the whole
thing.

1090
01:07:46,920 --> 01:07:49,560
And so, and it was real, like
you could walk up to this box

1091
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:56,280
and you could see the ordination
book from Nauvoo and you could

1092
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:58,840
see Elijah Abel's name, but you
could see it in its full

1093
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,640
context.
They couldn't have just released

1094
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:03,480
a scan of the page.
Right.

1095
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:05,840
But it wouldn't have been the
same.

1096
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:08,440
No, it could.
Have been the same vibe and so I

1097
01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:12,480
think they have done or when
they first started when they

1098
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:17,600
first showed the papyrite from
the book of Abraham, they put

1099
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:20,399
the papyri on display, which was
very cool.

1100
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,840
They also put the original
printing plate with it.

1101
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:27,279
They also put the very first
copy that ever came out of it.

1102
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:30,560
They also put the first
transcription with it and it was

1103
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:34,279
kind of as a package deal of
this is what this is

1104
01:08:34,279 --> 01:08:37,040
historically.
And so I think they, they're

1105
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:39,120
really good at doing that.
I mean, again, they're world

1106
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:41,200
class archivists behind the
scenes.

1107
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:45,880
And the people who I've talked
to about the document generally

1108
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,640
are people who, who are very
good at what they do.

1109
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:54,479
They're they're brilliant
historians and they, they get

1110
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,319
the importance of telling a
historical picture that makes

1111
01:08:57,319 --> 01:09:00,399
sense and that is comprehensive.
And like I mentioned, we don't

1112
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:04,319
have anything else from 1886.
There's nothing else to put with

1113
01:09:04,319 --> 01:09:09,439
it from the time.
And so any, so when we looked at

1114
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:13,080
this folder, this is really all
we this is this is the picture

1115
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:15,399
unfortunately, but this is all
this is what we have about the

1116
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:20,080
document because we don't have
much else.

1117
01:09:20,080 --> 01:09:22,720
And so they did paint the full
picture of the document, even if

1118
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,160
it just looks like there's a
couple kind of weird things.

1119
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,560
Gotcha.
All right, so that takes us to

1120
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:34,080
today and the ramifications of
what this what this really means

1121
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:37,200
now, right.
So let's talk for a second.

1122
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:38,439
What?
What do you think this should

1123
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:44,760
mean for for fundamentalists?
Well, I mean, I'm not one, so

1124
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:47,680
this matters to me in a very
weird way in that I just get to

1125
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:52,479
like be excited that I knew it.
And that's like a very different

1126
01:09:52,479 --> 01:09:56,880
experience than people who I do
know have spent a long, a lot of

1127
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:01,560
their life feeling crazy,
feeling like the foundational.

1128
01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:04,840
I mean, it makes me 6.
Revelation is so wild because

1129
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:10,960
it's one piece of paper folded.
It's like 12 lines, you know,

1130
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,960
it's not, it's not like the
Bible where it's like this

1131
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:18,240
giant.
It's a very totally small, but

1132
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:22,600
thousands of people base their
faith.

1133
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:24,720
They base the structure of their
family.

1134
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,760
They base the structure of the
cosmological order.

1135
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:32,400
They base the nature of God.
They base the nature of how the

1136
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:35,640
temporal world should look.
They base everything.

1137
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:37,720
They base their willingness to
go to jail.

1138
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:40,280
They base their willingness to
lose their family.

1139
01:10:40,440 --> 01:10:43,640
That everything is based on this
piece of paper and whether or

1140
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:48,080
not it is real.
And for 100 years, they were

1141
01:10:48,080 --> 01:10:52,120
told that it's fake, whether
that means it's a forgery or

1142
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:53,640
whether that means it doesn't
exist.

1143
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:59,240
They were told this is fake.
And that is difficult.

1144
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:02,800
And granted, you know, the
people I know who believe in

1145
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:06,520
this document, we're willing to
have faith in it regardless of

1146
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:08,080
that in the same way.
I mean, I thought it was real.

1147
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:10,200
And so like, whatever.
But that's different than what

1148
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:13,720
I'm, I'm not basing my life, my
livelihood on it.

1149
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:19,320
But that is set, that is a
challenging and a painful

1150
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:23,480
experience to go to bed every
night being told you're crazy by

1151
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:29,280
in many cases, the religious
institution of your family, the

1152
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:33,040
religious institution that
excommunicated you for this, the

1153
01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:37,000
for, for, I mean, so many people
I know have been excommunicated

1154
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:42,600
or disciplined or lost family
members or have lost a lot.

1155
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:47,000
I've lost jobs, have given up a
lot for this and have given up a

1156
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:48,760
lot for something that they were
told is fake.

1157
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:53,440
And so for the people that I
know that, you know, I mean,

1158
01:11:53,440 --> 01:11:56,520
I've messaged you immediately.
I, I messaged so many people

1159
01:11:57,080 --> 01:12:00,200
when it came out with the
realization that, and I, I

1160
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:03,320
mentioned this to others that,
you know, for me, this was just

1161
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:07,400
like a fun historical thing,
like a fun historical find, but

1162
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:10,120
messaging people who it matters
to it.

1163
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:13,680
I, it hit me have like this is,
this is people's lives.

1164
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,400
Like this is a document that
changes everything.

1165
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:19,040
And I mean, you might not get
your family back.

1166
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:21,200
You might not get your standing
in the LDS church back.

1167
01:12:21,200 --> 01:12:22,600
You probably won't get your
standing in the.

1168
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:27,520
LDS Church you no it's.
Probably less likely now you you

1169
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:29,040
probably won't get your job
back.

1170
01:12:29,440 --> 01:12:33,560
A lot of things that
fundamentalists lose they will

1171
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:37,720
not get back because of this.
But it does matter that you

1172
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:41,560
weren't crazy.
Well, and and you hit on

1173
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:46,920
something just just this week, a
gentle, I heard a gentleman

1174
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:49,080
rehearse the story.
And I'm going to be as vague as

1175
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:55,000
possible, but not terribly long
ago there was a gentleman who

1176
01:12:55,000 --> 01:12:59,240
encountered this, right, who had
not not the document but had

1177
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:04,600
become a fundamentalist.
And he essentially was drug in

1178
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:08,800
to the Bishop's office.
His wife wasn't happy, right,

1179
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:15,040
that he went down this road.
And the Bishop was like, you are

1180
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:17,520
base.
When asked for why do you do

1181
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:19,920
this, he pointed to the 1886
revelation.

1182
01:13:20,880 --> 01:13:24,640
And the Bishop looked at him and
said you are basing your faith

1183
01:13:25,400 --> 01:13:29,320
on a historical inaccuracy and
an urban legend.

1184
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:32,600
And this man said, I have
received a witness.

1185
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:37,320
I am going to stick by this.
The man, his wife leaves him.

1186
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:46,480
He never gets remarried.
He he loses his job, he loses

1187
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:50,400
his standing in his community.
I mean, it is the Horror Story,

1188
01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:53,600
right?
And it is from a place of you

1189
01:13:53,600 --> 01:13:57,120
have banked it all on a
fictitious account.

1190
01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:03,360
And at least today and and I get
a little emotional about this.

1191
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:07,560
At least today, that man can at
least stand vindicated that it

1192
01:14:07,560 --> 01:14:12,640
wasn't pretended that he was
following John Taylor's advice,

1193
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:17,080
you know, prophetic counsel.
And I think that's huge, right?

1194
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:21,880
I think that that lends, lends
credence to what it is we do

1195
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:27,520
that it's not based off of off
of just somebody else's

1196
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:29,520
pretended authority, so to
speak, right?

1197
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:33,120
That this this did originate at
the highest office of the LDS

1198
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:35,960
Church in in that moment in
time.

1199
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:38,680
And it said thus, saith the Lord
on it.

1200
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:40,480
It wasn't John to where it was
God.

1201
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:44,560
Yes, it wasn't to to whom it may
concern.

1202
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:46,400
You should keep doing this
right.

1203
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:51,120
It was thus, saith the Lord.
This is the way it is.

1204
01:14:52,120 --> 01:14:56,520
In AI mean the manifesto it is
to whom it may concern.

1205
01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:00,160
Yes.
To whom it may concern we won't

1206
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:04,360
do it anymore wink, nod.
Those are very different

1207
01:15:04,360 --> 01:15:08,320
documents.
And, and it, I mean, the reason

1208
01:15:08,320 --> 01:15:10,800
I've always been sympathetic to
the fundamentalist movement is

1209
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:15,040
there is a very large, I mean,
it is to whom it may concern

1210
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:20,240
versus thus sayeth the Lord when
it comes to the year 1885 to

1211
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:23,560
1890.
And those are rough.

1212
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:27,640
Those are rough things.
But yeah, I mean, I messaged

1213
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:32,200
someone who has I, I, who has
been, his family's been so good

1214
01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:34,680
to me.
And he's a, you know, he's a

1215
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:39,160
fundamentalist and dude, I can't
imagine how difficult it would

1216
01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:43,600
be.
And, and yeah, I mean, it would,

1217
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:48,960
it'll change the way that people
experience their life.

1218
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:52,720
Now, I will also say as like, I
feel like an obligation to say

1219
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:56,880
that the fundamentals movement
has some rough patches.

1220
01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:03,280
Sure does sure does that.
I've, I don't think I've been

1221
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:07,760
like a rosy, like rosy eyed.
No, but I mean, I've been

1222
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:10,920
accused of that.
And and so I do feel an

1223
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:12,880
obligation to say that, you
know, the fundamentals movement

1224
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,920
has had a rough time.
It has it's at a violent time

1225
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:20,040
and it's had a a bad time
because of this document.

1226
01:16:20,440 --> 01:16:25,240
And so I think there is, I think
this can also, I hope be kind of

1227
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:30,080
maybe a call to like to a
renewed reflection, self

1228
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:33,200
reflection of what are the
values?

1229
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:39,760
Why do we do what we do kind of
moment of and kind of think

1230
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:44,280
through the that this is a, this
is an important moment for the

1231
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:49,600
for American polygamy and to
kind of really evaluate what is

1232
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:51,280
polygamy going to look like for
the next.

1233
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:54,480
Like polygamy for the last 100
years was in the shadows.

1234
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:59,360
It was a hidden revelation.
We were told it was fake.

1235
01:16:59,920 --> 01:17:06,320
Now it is something that
everyone knows is real and it

1236
01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:09,920
we're having documents come to
light and maybe there's a way

1237
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:12,400
that we can look at what this
means, how we're going to do

1238
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:14,560
this moving forward.
That would, I guess, be my hope

1239
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:16,680
about what it does for the
community.

1240
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:20,840
Got you.
So here's one that and I got to

1241
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:22,560
be honest, I'm a little nervous
to ask this one.

1242
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:26,760
What does this mean for for your
average, run-of-the-mill member

1243
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:27,960
of the LDS church?
Now you?

1244
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:31,000
Know I don't think it means
anything.

1245
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:34,880
OK.
Yeah, I, I have seen many

1246
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,680
comments about is the church
going to bring back polygamy

1247
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:42,600
like is no.
I mean, I think if J Reuben

1248
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:47,480
Clark's memorandum stands,
meaning the keys to polygamous

1249
01:17:47,480 --> 01:17:49,880
ceilings are void at death, then
you don't have to worry about

1250
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:52,440
it.
Then the then the 1896

1251
01:17:52,440 --> 01:17:55,200
revelation is void and you can
go to bed at night being glad

1252
01:17:55,200 --> 01:17:59,240
this doesn't apply to you.
I don't think that the LDS

1253
01:17:59,240 --> 01:18:01,640
church is going to bring back
polygamy at least.

1254
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:04,560
No.
In any of our lifetimes, I think

1255
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:08,080
the LDS, I think the LDS church
has gone through such an intense

1256
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:13,200
shift toward trying to be like
the American mainline churches,

1257
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:16,120
trying to be very kind of
similar to Methodism in its vibe

1258
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:18,840
and aesthetic, even though it's
it's theologically not.

1259
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:21,320
I think it's tried really hard
to do that.

1260
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:24,800
Bringing back polygamy is the
end of that attempt, right?

1261
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:28,520
Polygamy is illegal in all 50
states.

1262
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:32,960
It has been decriminalized in
some places, but it is illegal

1263
01:18:33,320 --> 01:18:36,640
in all 50 states.
So you're not it.

1264
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:39,960
It would be, it would be very
weird to have a temple recommend

1265
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:43,440
question of like the law of the
land when you're doing this.

1266
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:48,320
So I mean, I think if I was, so
I don't think institutional

1267
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:51,280
change if I was a member of the
LDS Church, I think it would

1268
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:54,400
raise maybe some questions
about, I don't think the

1269
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:57,400
document raises questions.
I think the period of the 1910s

1270
01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:02,440
to 1930s has a lot to answer for
of how it was, how the document

1271
01:19:02,440 --> 01:19:06,960
was handled by the institution.
So I don't think the document

1272
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:08,480
does anything to the average
person.

1273
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:10,960
I think the handling of the
document is something that I

1274
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:12,480
would kind of want some answers
for.

1275
01:19:13,040 --> 01:19:16,480
Yeah, no, I think so.
I think, I think that's exactly

1276
01:19:16,480 --> 01:19:19,120
where it's at.
And, and look, I, I want to be

1277
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:21,320
fair.
None of the men who are in

1278
01:19:21,320 --> 01:19:24,240
charge now were in charge in the
1930s, right.

1279
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:28,360
And so I do want to say thanks,
right?

1280
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:31,960
Like who, whoever this, you
know, came from what as you were

1281
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:35,840
saying, there's 22 divisions,
there's the church and then the

1282
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:37,560
the church history library,
right?

1283
01:19:39,200 --> 01:19:41,640
It's it's a huge thing.
It means a lot to the to the

1284
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:44,800
people that I know, right.
And so for them to be this

1285
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:47,280
forward, just thank you.
I, I know that couldn't have

1286
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:51,040
come without a little bit of
consternation, but or maybe it

1287
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:52,960
did.
Maybe the rookie on the team was

1288
01:19:52,960 --> 01:19:55,040
like, yeah, just ship that out.
It's fine.

1289
01:19:56,560 --> 01:19:58,800
Well, I mean, fortunately, I
mean, that is something we can

1290
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:00,920
say for hierarchical
institutions, they usually know

1291
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:04,560
better than to let like a new
intern or a rookie run something

1292
01:20:04,560 --> 01:20:06,880
big.
So.

1293
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:11,880
But yeah, I mean, I, yeah, it is
AI also.

1294
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:20,240
I mean, if we're honest, I also
would be shocked if the release

1295
01:20:20,240 --> 01:20:23,440
of this if anyone who was part
of this even thought about

1296
01:20:23,440 --> 01:20:26,600
fundamentalists in the moment.
Right, right.

1297
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,400
I, I think, I think they would
have had to spend the 30s if it

1298
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:33,320
had been the 70s.
I think they would have kind of

1299
01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:34,600
had that in the back of their
mind.

1300
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:37,880
But I think it's been long
enough that the average kind of

1301
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:41,320
archivist people working in CHL,
even the leadership, I don't

1302
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:44,560
think they really kind of think
about fundamentalists as much as

1303
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:46,880
maybe sometimes fundamentalist
think about them.

1304
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:52,080
But, and, and so I, I think
that's probably more likely than

1305
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:53,800
not.
I think a lot of this is kind of

1306
01:20:53,800 --> 01:20:57,520
a renewed interest in an
accurate telling of history,

1307
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:01,600
which which I can fully applaud.
Yeah, no, I think so.

1308
01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:07,520
And look, Mormon history is, you
know, I you don't need to tell.

1309
01:21:07,560 --> 01:21:11,000
You don't need me to tell you
this Mormon history is a strange

1310
01:21:12,560 --> 01:21:14,960
piece of history to try and not
navigate, right.

1311
01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:21,360
And because like within Mormon
history, you get to about the

1312
01:21:21,360 --> 01:21:24,880
40s and 50s and correlation
starts to become a thing, right?

1313
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,960
Like we're going to, we're going
to have a standard narrative

1314
01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:32,960
here.
And so often a lot of the things

1315
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:36,480
that at least that drove me nuts
when I had all this knowledge

1316
01:21:36,480 --> 01:21:41,560
and was still in the LDS church
was just like the frustration of

1317
01:21:41,560 --> 01:21:44,160
like, no, that's not how the
story went down, right.

1318
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:48,400
And that telling of history has
to be important.

1319
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:52,040
And look, I do want to say we do
see seem to be seeing in the LDS

1320
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:56,400
church a more willingness to
address the address the actual

1321
01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:57,960
history rather than the
narrative.

1322
01:21:58,320 --> 01:22:01,680
But nonetheless, there there
there's those narratives that

1323
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:03,920
it's going to take a hot minute
to break, right?

1324
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:08,600
And look, I've had LDS people
reach out to me over this just

1325
01:22:09,120 --> 01:22:12,280
incensed, right?
And I'm like, look, slow your

1326
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:15,840
roll before you just jump ship.
There does seem to be a more

1327
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:18,160
openness towards that history,
which I applaud.

1328
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:22,520
I think that's fantastic because
I think that can only lead to

1329
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:27,400
greater understanding between,
you know, the, the fundamental

1330
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:30,880
circles I run in and more
understanding with the LDS

1331
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:32,920
Church and hopefully vice versa,
right?

1332
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:35,760
Like whether you agree or
disagree, you can be like, at

1333
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:37,480
least I know how you got there,
right?

1334
01:22:38,480 --> 01:22:43,040
And I think for too long it was
just a history that was spun of,

1335
01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:45,520
well, it was just for plural
marriage, right?

1336
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:49,360
Like it we were, we were really
trying to do what was right

1337
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:50,640
there.
Yeah.

1338
01:22:50,640 --> 01:22:54,600
I mean, I think I think we're
all seeing, at least

1339
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:57,520
institutionally, I think there
is kind of maybe not, not a

1340
01:22:57,520 --> 01:22:59,800
sympathy that's too much, but I
think an interest in kind of

1341
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:02,480
figuring out why there are
polygamists still.

1342
01:23:03,360 --> 01:23:06,080
For most of history, it was kind
of like those weird people over

1343
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:08,000
there.
Yeah.

1344
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,320
And I don't think that has
inverted to those great people

1345
01:23:10,320 --> 01:23:12,720
over there.
But I think there's a curiosity

1346
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:17,040
of how did that happen?
And I remember it's probably

1347
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:20,240
been long enough that I can talk
about the story that in

1348
01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:28,480
20/17/2018, 2017, I think 2018,
I don't know, one of those

1349
01:23:28,480 --> 01:23:32,040
years, for some reason, I was
invited to the LDS Church's

1350
01:23:32,040 --> 01:23:35,040
Christmas party.
I don't.

1351
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:37,920
Wow.
And I was excited because like,

1352
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:40,680
my question is like, what do
they drink at like a fancy party

1353
01:23:40,680 --> 01:23:41,720
with no alcohol?
Like what?

1354
01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:46,800
What does that look like?
It's no, it is a CRAN guava

1355
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:48,280
juice.
Oh.

1356
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:51,120
I know it's very, it was very
interesting.

1357
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:53,640
Was it good?
Yeah, it was great.

1358
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:54,880
OK.
I was just curious.

1359
01:23:55,440 --> 01:23:59,000
Oh, yeah, it was great.
And it was in the big church

1360
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:00,960
office building on the, like,
roof.

1361
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:03,840
And like some of the apostles
were there.

1362
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:05,600
I don't know.
And I was like, why am I here?

1363
01:24:06,960 --> 01:24:08,920
And I think it was because I was
a fellow at the University of

1364
01:24:08,920 --> 01:24:09,760
Utah.
I don't know.

1365
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:11,000
It didn't make.
I don't know.

1366
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:18,240
But I, before the dinner, I
talked to Sister Jean Bingham,

1367
01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:21,640
the Relief Society president,
like the head one, like the big

1368
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:25,520
Relief Society president, and
she asked what I did.

1369
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:31,000
And I, I, I didn't really know
how much, you know, like I, I

1370
01:24:31,000 --> 01:24:32,080
didn't really know how to
approach it.

1371
01:24:32,080 --> 01:24:35,960
And I was like, oh, you know, I,
I study fundamentalist Mormons.

1372
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:39,160
And her husband said, what's
that?

1373
01:24:40,640 --> 01:24:47,240
And she very generously said,
those are the Mormons who still

1374
01:24:47,240 --> 01:24:54,840
practice polygamy.
And, and I was like, and she

1375
01:24:55,480 --> 01:25:02,480
started talking about how in the
1930s and 40s there was splits

1376
01:25:02,480 --> 01:25:05,440
in the church over this.
And many of them moved and went

1377
01:25:05,440 --> 01:25:08,800
down to southern Utah and, and,
you know, she didn't have this

1378
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:11,200
robust history like she, it was
like a couple minutes like

1379
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:16,120
before dinner.
But I was really taken aback the

1380
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:18,720
way that she answered.
What's that?

1381
01:25:18,720 --> 01:25:22,600
Like, she, she had an answer for
it that was more generous than I

1382
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:26,280
think I would have imagined.
And then I would have imagined

1383
01:25:26,280 --> 01:25:29,840
would have happened in the
1980s, seventies, 60s.

1384
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:35,240
And so I think there is kind of
a renewed curiosity without

1385
01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:38,200
sympathy for most people, but
probably with for some of why

1386
01:25:38,200 --> 01:25:40,480
aren't, why is it like that?
Like, why are there?

1387
01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:44,240
Why?
Why does Bluffdale have people

1388
01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:46,160
with big families?
What is going on?

1389
01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:50,200
And so I think maybe some of
that is there and I, I would

1390
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:51,680
hope so.
Yeah.

1391
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:54,600
You know, it's funny, you, you
bring, you bring up that

1392
01:25:54,600 --> 01:25:56,640
encounter with, with Gene
Bingham.

1393
01:25:57,480 --> 01:26:02,160
And when, when me, Amber and
Tanya came out here to visit

1394
01:26:02,160 --> 01:26:05,800
Missouri, I thought, you know,
we're not actually close, but

1395
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:07,840
we're closer.
Let's go ahead and go to Nauvoo

1396
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:09,040
too.
Tanya had never been.

1397
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:14,240
So I'm like, let's go to Nauvoo.
And it was, it was in August.

1398
01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:17,000
So there wasn't a lot of people
there right when we hit it.

1399
01:26:17,000 --> 01:26:20,880
And, and one of the places I
always like to go in Nauvoo is

1400
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:24,720
John Taylor's home, just because
there's so much history happens

1401
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:25,840
there, right?
That's where they plan the

1402
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:27,680
exodus.
It's it's a big, it's, it's a

1403
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:30,560
big area.
And the missionary couple who

1404
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:33,560
was there were brand new, like
they got in the night before.

1405
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:37,800
And so I was, I was just sitting
there.

1406
01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:40,680
And then she brought a couple
through who weren't Mormon at

1407
01:26:40,680 --> 01:26:44,680
all.
And she was explaining who John,

1408
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:46,560
you know, they'd ask the
question, who was John Taylor?

1409
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:49,640
And she was explaining it.
And she looked at me and she's

1410
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:51,400
like, do you have anything else
on John Taylor?

1411
01:26:51,400 --> 01:26:53,640
I feel like I'm leaving it out,
something out.

1412
01:26:53,640 --> 01:26:55,240
And I'm like, oh, yeah, well, of
course I.

1413
01:26:55,480 --> 01:26:58,680
And so I just go in about
halfway through my diatribe,

1414
01:26:58,680 --> 01:26:59,680
right.
And I'm respectful.

1415
01:26:59,680 --> 01:27:01,760
I'm not bringing up.
And he's the prophet that

1416
01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,560
started fundamentalism.
But I, I was like, you know,

1417
01:27:05,560 --> 01:27:08,200
this is where he planned it.
He also took bullets and

1418
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:10,800
Carthage and, you know, just
kind of went through it about

1419
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:12,840
halfway through.
I thought, oh, I probably have

1420
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:16,480
overstepped my bounce, right.
So I wrap it up real quick.

1421
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:20,160
And then when it's all over,
Amber and Tonya and I step

1422
01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:22,760
outside and the missionaries
follow me And I'm like, look,

1423
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:25,280
I'm sorry.
I did not mean to, to overstep

1424
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:27,320
If I, you know, share too much
or whatever.

1425
01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:29,680
And her and her husband were
sweet.

1426
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:32,120
They were like, oh, no, we're
glad you, you, we're, we're glad

1427
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:34,120
that you shared that because we,
we didn't know half that.

1428
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:40,400
And the lady looks at me and she
goes, so which, which woman

1429
01:27:40,400 --> 01:27:46,400
there is your wife.
And I was like, yes, like I

1430
01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:49,400
didn't know what else to say.
And she's like it, the, the

1431
01:27:49,400 --> 01:27:51,840
gears turned for about 5
seconds.

1432
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:55,440
She's like, oh, oh, you're,
you're a fundamentalist.

1433
01:27:55,440 --> 01:28:00,000
And I'm like, I am, but we had a
conversation there the the five

1434
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:05,400
of us together for probably, I
don't know, 45 minutes, maybe an

1435
01:28:05,400 --> 01:28:09,360
hour.
And the, the lady said something

1436
01:28:09,360 --> 01:28:12,640
really sweet when when we left,
she's like, I just want you to

1437
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:15,480
know I'd have no problem sitting
next to you in a temple session,

1438
01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:17,080
right?
And moves on.

1439
01:28:19,760 --> 01:28:23,480
And I don't know if she'll ever
know how good that felt to us,

1440
01:28:23,680 --> 01:28:26,520
right?
That there's way more that

1441
01:28:26,520 --> 01:28:32,360
unites us than separates us.
And I think, I think we have to

1442
01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:36,920
be able to get to a point to
where, again, we may not be able

1443
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:39,560
to hug it out theologically on a
Sunday, but there's nothing that

1444
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:42,680
says we can't get together on a
Saturday for a BBQ, right?

1445
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:46,040
But it is good times, right?
I mean, this, this was huge for

1446
01:28:46,040 --> 01:28:47,520
our people.
What?

1447
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:49,200
Did it mean to your family and
to you?

1448
01:28:50,240 --> 01:28:57,440
Oh man, so to me, I, I now get
to have at least a piece of the

1449
01:28:57,440 --> 01:29:01,360
history that is recognized by
all parties involved where I can

1450
01:29:01,360 --> 01:29:05,160
be like, I'm not asking you to
accept it, right?

1451
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:11,480
I'm not asking you to, to get
behind 100% endorse what I

1452
01:29:11,480 --> 01:29:13,200
believe.
That's not what I or practice.

1453
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:17,600
That's not what I'm asking for.
What I am asking is for a little

1454
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:21,720
bit of acknowledgement here in
that this was more than just a

1455
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:26,720
guy who got a feeling in 1930
whatever to start a

1456
01:29:26,720 --> 01:29:29,440
fundamentalist movement.
This has chops going to the

1457
01:29:29,440 --> 01:29:36,760
highest office within the LDS
Church in a very important time

1458
01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:39,520
in church history.
And this is where that comes

1459
01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:41,160
from.
This is the injunction.

1460
01:29:41,560 --> 01:29:44,320
This is the the the mission,
right?

1461
01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:47,320
And it doesn't compass more than
plural marriage, right.

1462
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:52,080
I do believe it encompasses
Adam, God teachings, the

1463
01:29:52,080 --> 01:29:55,160
original temple endowment and
those things.

1464
01:29:55,200 --> 01:29:58,360
And again, I'm not here to tell
anybody else how they believe is

1465
01:29:58,360 --> 01:29:59,600
wrong.
That's not what I'm doing.

1466
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:05,400
And you know, yeah.
So for us, it was very much a

1467
01:30:05,400 --> 01:30:10,200
vindication.
And that, no, we have, we have

1468
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:15,240
historical chops on this, right.
It's not just a fancy of of

1469
01:30:15,240 --> 01:30:17,440
feeling.
Yeah, yeah.

1470
01:30:17,440 --> 01:30:20,000
And I think more, I mean, one of
the, when you were mentioning

1471
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:22,800
the missionaries, your
experience with missionaries,

1472
01:30:23,600 --> 01:30:27,320
but I think also with the
release of the revelation, you

1473
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:29,560
know, I've been really fortunate
to get to, I mean, like with

1474
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:34,320
Sister Bingham, get to talk to
people in the LDS church who are

1475
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:37,240
not, I mean, not I, I don't,
I've never, I haven't talked to

1476
01:30:37,240 --> 01:30:38,600
like, except for the Christmas
party.

1477
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:40,800
I haven't talked to like
apostles or anything, but to

1478
01:30:40,800 --> 01:30:46,160
talk to people in leadership
positions And I don't.

1479
01:30:46,440 --> 01:30:48,280
And like with the release of
this document, I think something

1480
01:30:48,280 --> 01:30:51,240
that we're, that we're finding
more and more is the animosity

1481
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:53,360
between the polygamists and the
non polygamists.

1482
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:57,440
That's everyone's dad and
grandpa's fight.

1483
01:30:59,160 --> 01:31:02,000
It's not most people's fight
anymore.

1484
01:31:02,440 --> 01:31:06,160
The people who, you know, talked
about the publication of this

1485
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:09,560
document, they're not, we're not
in the 1930s.

1486
01:31:09,800 --> 01:31:13,440
This is not their fight to win.
This is something that their

1487
01:31:13,440 --> 01:31:16,920
grandparents fought hard for and
against.

1488
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:22,560
You know, I I have a memory of
when I went on a tour of the

1489
01:31:24,280 --> 01:31:27,200
Jordan River Temple.
Is that the one in West Valley?

1490
01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:29,280
Yeah.
The Jordan River Temple.

1491
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:34,040
And I, I was really lucky to get
to go through with one of the

1492
01:31:34,040 --> 01:31:35,600
someone in a position of
leadership.

1493
01:31:36,320 --> 01:31:39,920
And I talked to him about how I
knew that there was a temple

1494
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:43,560
building that had been
desecrated, but had there was a

1495
01:31:43,560 --> 01:31:46,840
time when some like dumb LDS
kids had like spray painted it.

1496
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:52,600
And we're kind of mean about it.
And he expressed real sorrow for

1497
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:56,040
that reality that that was still
happening in in his language was

1498
01:31:56,400 --> 01:32:00,560
he was shocked that was still
happening and that that was

1499
01:32:00,560 --> 01:32:02,640
still going on.
And that like hostility was

1500
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:05,520
still the case.
And I think more and more it is

1501
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:10,040
true that the fight against the
fundamentalist movement is an

1502
01:32:10,040 --> 01:32:16,000
old fight that I don't think
most people in leadership are as

1503
01:32:16,240 --> 01:32:18,240
concerned about.
Now, granted, when it comes to

1504
01:32:18,240 --> 01:32:20,480
like people like Warren Jeffs,
etcetera, with law enforcement,

1505
01:32:20,480 --> 01:32:24,480
that is its own thing when it
comes to your, I mean, even

1506
01:32:24,480 --> 01:32:29,720
when, when the polygamy bill
came up and the

1507
01:32:29,720 --> 01:32:33,080
decriminalization of polygamy,
and I remember talking to

1508
01:32:33,080 --> 01:32:37,400
legislators about it and asking
like, I'm just being kind of

1509
01:32:37,400 --> 01:32:42,000
nervous, is the LDS church gonna
gonna send in their lobbyists?

1510
01:32:42,000 --> 01:32:43,040
Like, is there gonna be a
problem?

1511
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:47,520
And that they chose to remain
decidedly neutral on it.

1512
01:32:48,040 --> 01:32:50,760
And I mean, that was huge.
But they were going to remain

1513
01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:53,920
neutral on the polygamy question
after siding with the government

1514
01:32:53,920 --> 01:32:57,320
in the in 1935 to go after the
polygamist.

1515
01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:01,440
And I think there is a sense of
like, this is just not their

1516
01:33:01,440 --> 01:33:03,880
fight.
This is not, this isn't.

1517
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:06,520
This is no one's fight anymore.
Right, right.

1518
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:11,920
I think enough time has passed
that that divorce has had scars

1519
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:17,880
that have healed over right.
And and I, I think what we see

1520
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:22,200
now are, are the offspring,
offspring of the children of the

1521
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:25,600
parents of that divorce going,
Oh, well, you know, let's let's

1522
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:28,960
start talking, let's have a
dialogue and.

1523
01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:31,040
Technology.
It's a great analogy for it.

1524
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:33,880
And, and I think, I think that's
where we're at now.

1525
01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:37,480
And, and look, I'll say this, I,
I have a lot of active LDS folks

1526
01:33:37,480 --> 01:33:42,280
on the podcast, right?
And I value the the things that

1527
01:33:42,280 --> 01:33:46,520
they can bring to the table.
And I think this also shows that

1528
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:49,320
we don't necessarily have to be
scared of this history, that we

1529
01:33:49,320 --> 01:33:56,120
can share this history and share
honestly and openly and not have

1530
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:58,600
to hate each other over it.
Yeah, absolutely.

1531
01:33:58,600 --> 01:34:01,120
Yeah.
So, well, awesome.

1532
01:34:01,120 --> 01:34:03,080
Is there anything else you
wanted to go over that we didn't

1533
01:34:03,080 --> 01:34:04,760
touch on?
Anything.

1534
01:34:04,960 --> 01:34:09,320
Worth it in conclusion.
I think, I mean just excited it

1535
01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:12,320
happened.
I didn't, I didn't think, I

1536
01:34:12,320 --> 01:34:15,400
didn't think I'd ever get to see
it like so many people.

1537
01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:18,000
I mean, I know that again, my
experience is such a microcosm,

1538
01:34:19,240 --> 01:34:24,320
but I mean, just spending, you
know, years, years writing about

1539
01:34:24,320 --> 01:34:27,640
this document and writing about
it.

1540
01:34:27,640 --> 01:34:32,840
Like in most articles, in most
in my book, in the book that's

1541
01:34:32,840 --> 01:34:35,240
coming out with Brian from
Signature, in most things I've

1542
01:34:35,240 --> 01:34:39,320
written, it has talked about the
revelation and it has always had

1543
01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:42,760
a footnote basically saying we
don't have it.

1544
01:34:43,600 --> 01:34:47,760
Right.
And so man, just having written

1545
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:51,720
about this document, presenting
on it and having to explain, but

1546
01:34:51,720 --> 01:34:55,400
like, yeah, we don't, it's not,
it isn't there, but like it is

1547
01:34:55,400 --> 01:35:01,360
real, like, and then just now it
is, man.

1548
01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:04,080
Yeah, it's huge.
So it's.

1549
01:35:04,280 --> 01:35:07,840
Still it is still open.
The tab from Saturday is still

1550
01:35:07,840 --> 01:35:09,880
open on my computer.
Yeah, yeah.

1551
01:35:09,880 --> 01:35:13,680
No, I, I'll be honest with you
there.

1552
01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:16,600
There were moments when I got
home after I asked you to come

1553
01:35:16,600 --> 01:35:19,920
on the podcast was like, did I
did I really read that

1554
01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:21,880
correctly, right?
Like I got to go back.

1555
01:35:22,480 --> 01:35:24,680
I got to go back.
I got to make sure right?

1556
01:35:25,080 --> 01:35:26,440
I.
Didn't believe that.

1557
01:35:26,480 --> 01:35:29,920
I didn't believe that.
I like, I just called people

1558
01:35:30,000 --> 01:35:31,960
like who like, how did this
happen?

1559
01:35:32,680 --> 01:35:35,640
What's going on?
And just talking to people who

1560
01:35:35,680 --> 01:35:38,600
like, who know how much, how big
of a deal it was, I'm like,

1561
01:35:38,600 --> 01:35:41,680
yeah, I still don't really.
Also like my husband has not

1562
01:35:41,680 --> 01:35:44,320
stopped hearing about it.
Yeah, although.

1563
01:35:44,520 --> 01:35:46,920
He he never like he never
stopped hearing about it.

1564
01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:50,000
He has been from the day, like
the day we met, he was like, oh,

1565
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:52,760
I guess like Mormon polygamy is
a big part of your life.

1566
01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:58,960
Yeah, yeah.
My entire for some reason, it's

1567
01:35:58,960 --> 01:36:02,240
my entire personality.
Yeah, OK.

1568
01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:06,360
I, I'm not going to lie to you.
I I do have this question for

1569
01:36:06,360 --> 01:36:08,760
you, a couple of them before we
go.

1570
01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:12,520
One, do you, now that this is
for real, do you have to go back

1571
01:36:12,520 --> 01:36:14,600
and look at your own work and
go, OK, I need to shore

1572
01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:17,400
something up or something like
that or do you feel like.

1573
01:36:18,320 --> 01:36:20,160
I always wrote about it as
though it was real.

1574
01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:25,920
OK, cool.
And then my, my next observe

1575
01:36:26,480 --> 01:36:30,520
question is this, are you out of
retirement forever or are you

1576
01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:36,480
going back back into retirement?
No, I'm, I haven't happily

1577
01:36:36,480 --> 01:36:38,000
retired.
I mean, I did quit my job.

1578
01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:40,040
I moved to Canada to be with my
husband.

1579
01:36:41,360 --> 01:36:44,840
And you know, it's it's funny
that when I quit my job and

1580
01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:47,880
moved to Canada and like quote
retired from Mormon studies, I

1581
01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:50,240
didn't think that meant I would
never see a Mormon again.

1582
01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:55,080
But would you believe rural
Quebec does that actually has no

1583
01:36:55,080 --> 01:36:59,640
Mormons in it?
There's, I haven't seen one

1584
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:03,520
since I moved, but there's no
meeting house near me.

1585
01:37:03,520 --> 01:37:07,720
There's no eldest meeting house
near me, like for hours.

1586
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:10,600
What's interesting is I've
talked to people, like even I've

1587
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:13,200
talked to people who've served
missions in Quebec and they'll

1588
01:37:13,200 --> 01:37:14,720
be like, yeah, no, it's a rough
mission.

1589
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:17,520
And so there's not, there's not
Mormons.

1590
01:37:17,520 --> 01:37:26,280
But yeah, I got married, retired
and it's been great.

1591
01:37:26,280 --> 01:37:30,880
But but now with this, you know,
I odds and ends I I'll do a plug

1592
01:37:30,880 --> 01:37:33,640
for I Co edit Mormon studies
review.

1593
01:37:33,640 --> 01:37:38,240
So I still do that and I guess
what is retirement.

1594
01:37:39,120 --> 01:37:43,560
I am editing the Musser Diaries
with Brian.

1595
01:37:44,080 --> 01:37:46,520
I'm really excited to put it.
The collection is going to be

1596
01:37:46,520 --> 01:37:50,920
called St.
The Diaries and correspondences

1597
01:37:50,920 --> 01:37:54,760
of Saint Joseph White Musser
using his blessing, the name

1598
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:58,560
from his blessing, Cuz I think
we should be calling him that

1599
01:37:58,560 --> 01:38:00,560
like this name.
He was blessed, baby.

1600
01:38:01,880 --> 01:38:08,040
And then I will be writing, I
will be writing an article about

1601
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:12,000
or two about the revelation and
it's kind of impact.

1602
01:38:12,600 --> 01:38:14,120
Nice.
So I am gonna be some writing,

1603
01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:19,760
but you know, I also AM.
My husband's going to laugh at

1604
01:38:20,040 --> 01:38:22,400
this.
I'm the devotions coordinator

1605
01:38:22,520 --> 01:38:26,000
for a segment of the Anglican
Church Women So.

1606
01:38:26,480 --> 01:38:28,360
Nice, nice.
I am.

1607
01:38:28,360 --> 01:38:31,960
I am a member of the Relief
Society presidency in this tiny

1608
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:33,320
corner of Anglicanism.
Nice.

1609
01:38:35,160 --> 01:38:38,440
Nice.
Well, I got to tell you after we

1610
01:38:38,440 --> 01:38:45,840
talked, I think it was Tuesday.
Being the guy that I am, I love

1611
01:38:45,840 --> 01:38:49,480
the John Wick movies, right?
When I want to go brain dead and

1612
01:38:49,480 --> 01:38:53,400
I just want to not think about
anything, that's what I go to.

1613
01:38:53,400 --> 01:38:58,280
However, something was said in
the first one that made me think

1614
01:38:58,280 --> 01:39:00,720
of you.
And that's when Wick walks back

1615
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:03,880
into the nightclub where all the
hit men are and he gets warned.

1616
01:39:04,040 --> 01:39:08,200
If you step put one pinky back
in these waters, it could bring

1617
01:39:08,200 --> 01:39:09,560
you back in.
So.

1618
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:13,360
Everyone has been sending me the
Godfather meme.

1619
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:18,120
Like.
Thought I was out like everyone

1620
01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:20,960
every both.
My husband was the first person

1621
01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:23,120
to like.
He'd like texted it to me from

1622
01:39:23,120 --> 01:39:24,800
like across the table.
Awesome.

1623
01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:29,120
On Saturday as I'm like
panicking and then just telling

1624
01:39:29,120 --> 01:39:31,840
people to send that to me.
No, but I mean, I love I love

1625
01:39:31,840 --> 01:39:35,320
Mormon studies.
I loved it but.

1626
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:38,320
You're on to other things now.
I.

1627
01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:41,240
Get it?
Aching and canning and.

1628
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:46,480
Very Mormon skills, by the way.
They are my husband.

1629
01:39:46,480 --> 01:39:48,360
To be fair though, my husband
was raised Mennonite.

1630
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:50,680
OK, there you go.
They they do it too.

1631
01:39:51,200 --> 01:39:53,480
They they're they're they're
pretty.

1632
01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:55,720
They're for real.
You know their skills, they're.

1633
01:39:56,440 --> 01:39:58,240
They're they're for real.
They're for real.

1634
01:39:58,760 --> 01:39:59,920
Yeah.
So I'm gonna, yeah, I'm doing

1635
01:39:59,920 --> 01:40:04,120
that.
And I'm tentatively interested

1636
01:40:04,120 --> 01:40:07,280
in writing about schismatic
Catholic movements.

1637
01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:11,600
To try to maybe take some of
what I did in Mormon studies to

1638
01:40:11,600 --> 01:40:13,760
my own people.
That's interesting.

1639
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:16,320
You should bring that.
So I just had a conversation,

1640
01:40:16,560 --> 01:40:19,000
shouldn't say just, it was
probably six months ago I had a

1641
01:40:19,000 --> 01:40:22,200
buddy out here in Missouri who,
you know, is a fundamentalist,

1642
01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:25,520
but he's also very religiously
curious, right, Which is what I

1643
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:28,320
love about him.
And he was studying the schisms

1644
01:40:28,320 --> 01:40:30,560
between the Catholic Church and
the Eastern Orthodox.

1645
01:40:30,560 --> 01:40:33,840
And we had a conversation about
that because there were some

1646
01:40:33,840 --> 01:40:36,880
really interesting parallels
with Mormonism on that even.

1647
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:37,640
Right.
Sure.

1648
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:39,240
And the.
Big thing was the papacy.

1649
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:41,800
Yeah, yeah.
But I mean, there's a lot of

1650
01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:48,480
really tiny, tiny, tiny Catholic
religions that are Catholic but

1651
01:40:48,480 --> 01:40:51,320
don't think the Pope is real,
that he's lost his authority.

1652
01:40:51,720 --> 01:40:56,560
And, and so I know it's an
interest and I, it's an

1653
01:40:56,560 --> 01:40:57,840
interesting route.
They're called State of

1654
01:40:57,840 --> 01:41:01,840
Acontists.
And so when I started slowly,

1655
01:41:01,880 --> 01:41:05,160
like learning about them, I was
like, seems kind of shit.

1656
01:41:05,160 --> 01:41:06,480
And we have a lot of them near
where I live.

1657
01:41:06,560 --> 01:41:12,520
So maybe.
But for now, I'm just baking.

1658
01:41:12,840 --> 01:41:16,480
Well, awesome.
I can't tell you how much I

1659
01:41:16,480 --> 01:41:18,080
appreciate you making time for
me.

1660
01:41:18,480 --> 01:41:22,200
Like I said, I know you were in
retirement and I, I, I wanted to

1661
01:41:22,200 --> 01:41:24,680
respect that, but at the same
time I'm like, she started it

1662
01:41:25,120 --> 01:41:28,440
game on.
So I I do appreciate you jumping

1663
01:41:28,440 --> 01:41:30,880
on with me, Christina.
It's always great.

1664
01:41:31,240 --> 01:41:33,040
Awesome.
All right, hang out for just 5

1665
01:41:33,040 --> 01:41:34,160
minutes.
Bye everybody.

1666
01:42:05,320 --> 01:42:08,120
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.