Episode #17 Ogden Kraut W/ Kevin Kraut

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A Mormon fundamentalism.
There are names that everybody

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knows.
Then there are distinct, few

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whose influence is felt all over
the community on this episode.

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We talk about one such man,
Ogden crowd.

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I sit down with Kevin Kraut,
Ogden, son to talk about his

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dad, we cover, Ogden's
upbringing his mission, and his

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worked as a Mormon
fundamentalist historian author.

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Some of the most fascinating
portions is hearing about

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Ogden's interaction with folks
like coil, Bruce are McConkey

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Hyun Twinkly on skeleton.
And that's next on this edition

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of the Mormon Renegade podcast.
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Your listing to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Welcome back to the Mormon
Renegade podcast as always you

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can get ahold of me either by
email at Mormon Renegade at

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gmail.com.
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Mormon Renegade.
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that's Mormon Renegade.com, so
go check that out.

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So today on the podcast, I've
got someone who's just Stellar,

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I've known him for a few years.
Now, I've had the privilege of

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having his friendship and I just
can't speak enough about him.

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Every so often in
fundamentalism, you come across

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individuals who in who's it?
Who has an impact?

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That you really can't overstate.
And we're going to be talking

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about one of those individuals.
Today.

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We're going to Be talking about
Ogden Kraut and I brought on

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Kevin his son to come and tell
us a little bit about his dad.

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So Kevin again, I can't tell you
how much I appreciate you being

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here.
Well, I'm very grateful that you

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asked me to come and chat a
little bit about my father and

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all the very interesting stories
about him and what happened in

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his life and what led him to his
writing so many books.

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Yeah, because he, he was, he was
very prolific, right?

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How many books did he actually
end up writing Kevin?

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Well, he wrote and compiled
around 70.

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There were other books that he
was involved in.

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And he reprinted or compiled
other ones that he didn't say he

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compiled but he put them
together, so probably over 100

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books, different things he had
done, that's prolific for any

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author, it's even more prolific
when you start looking at the

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amount of just raw data that he
was able to compile, because and

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we'll get into this a little
later, but one of the things I

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loved about reading your dad's
books, especially as I was a

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newbie coming into
fundamentalism, your dad had a

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huge impact.
Packed on on me and how I did

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things.
And I've mentioned this another

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podcast and it was almost like
your dad was really good about

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being like, here's the
information.

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Now, you decide what you want to
do with it?

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He it was very impartial in a
lot of ways, right?

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Here's the data.
Here's what I found and do with

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it, what you will.
Well, a lot of it was quite

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interesting because Dad told me
that when he started out was

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some books, they were They were
huge volumes.

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I mean, he had all kinds of
notebooks and he'd write him and

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notebooks so he could take
something and, you know, it was

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a three-ring binder and then
he'd, take it out, put something

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in and you know, add here and
there that it was cut and paste

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type thing back in the day.
And so, he ended up with, you

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know, big, huge volumes and then
he'd go and he'd work and he

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bring it down a little bit more
and compile a little bit more

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and bring it more and then it,
then it would end up in a little

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book about that big, you know?
So, And then he said he would go

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to the thesaurus and try and
find the Layman's word for

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something to make it easier for
people to understand it.

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Nothing complex, nothing really
hard.

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And he said, much to my
counterpart, you know, several

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others who were authors, that
made it more difficult to

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understand Talmadge.
One, you know, bring big words

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in there were so complex people
had to go look up the word,

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there was even a dictionary at
Talmadge dictionary because You

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know, he had to look so
intelligent so it's really it's

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took a lot of work for him to
get the basics put together and

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there were other deep doctrines
I asking that because I'm just

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trying to get people so that
they can get into the

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fundamentalist Concepts very
easily without a lot of complex

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deep stuff they can get them.
Major things done, right?

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So real quick let's get some
background.

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Was your dad born a
Fundamentalist Okay, so my dad

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was born in Montana.
And he his family were Lutheran

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and they have been for
Generations.

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They even claim they came
through Luther, Martin Luther

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King not Martin Luther King,
further withered and so they

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came through that lineage that
you'll German lineage and they

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came in and then they were in
Pennsylvania.

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And then their family moved to
Montana, the rest of the family

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went to Washington.
And so when he was about 16 15,

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his teacher in the school handed
him Book of Mormon and he read

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the book of Mormon and he
converted and then he converted

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the rest of his family.
So he converted to the LDS

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church.
Correct.

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Okay.
And then he converted the rest

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of his family.
Yes.

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So he gets the message he finds
out.

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It's true.
And he's like, now I got to go

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convert the rest of my family.
Yeah.

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See that's crazy.
I I converted to the LDS church

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before as a fundamentalist,
right?

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And some of them might some of
the biggest push back.

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I got was from my family, right?
They wanted nothing to do with

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it, I think sometimes when when
they see you grow up and they

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see all your faults that they're
a little less likely to take you

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serious.
Because they see all the stupid

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crap.
You do write your dad.

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On the other hand seems to have
been of such character.

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That his family didn't really
doubt him at all.

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Yeah, he was a prolific reader.
He just read a lot of books and

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he was faster reading.
You know later in his were days

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when he was in the war.
One of the major generals came

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in and he and dad had all these
library books of all these

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different War things, whatever,
and one was the rise and fall of

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the Roman Empire, something.
And he said, well, you've read

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all this and dad said, yeah,
three times.

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And the guys, Really and what
did your conclusion about this?

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And this and this?
And it was all exactly the same

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as that General was.
He was so impressed with my dad

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you know 19 year old 20 year old
guy, you know.

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So so your dad, converts to the
LDS church.

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Does he go on an LDS mission?
Yes, later on after his

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conversion, then he and he loved
photography.

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And so he worked really hard to
get into photography and he went

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down to Texas.
He got a job working down in

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Texas for some Jews.
That ran a huge business in

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photography and they were very,
very good businessman.

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He was doing this and then he,
as he was, he was doing all that

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he kept saying, well, I need to
I need to go back to Salt Lake

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it.
I need to go to Salt Lake

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because he really didn't get to
go to Salt Lake and see all the

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stuff and everything go there.
Well we'll pay you double and

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we'll pay you more and you know,
any kept making all this money

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but he just kept kind of feeling
prompted to come to Utah.

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And one day they were having a
Can't think of the term.

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What is it?
Where the they go back to

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Jerusalem on a pilgrimage and so
they were there celebrating it

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and he was there and then he got
all done and he says, he kind of

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looked at him and he goes well,
that's kind of what I'm trying

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to do with with going to Salt
Lake.

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And they went oh, we're keeping
you from a pilgrimage.

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Oh no, we can't do that.
And so then they had kind of a

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pilgrimage thing for him to go
back, to Salt Lake City.

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So he goes to Salt Lake City and
he Need to cousin.

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And his who says, you need to go
meet this gentleman named Bishop

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coil.
And so, then he goes down to the

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mine and on the way there, but
he's giving him all these things

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because, you know, he needed,
you know, sleeping bag and he

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needed this.
And he went all the way there

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and he walks up to Bishop coil,
and Bishop coil looks at my dad

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and he goes, shakes his hand and
he goes, oh, we have been

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waiting for you.
And for anybody who doesn't

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know, Bishop coil was the bishop
who had Revelations about the

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dream mine down in Utah County
and we're going to do it.

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Yeah.
And Salem.

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So we're going to be doing an
episode just on the dream mine

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here before long, and your name
is on the short list for that.

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Kevin.
Cuz you're the one that taught

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me about it.
So I can't think of a better guy

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guy to do that but let's let's
stay on your dad so he meets

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Bishop coil.
Now his bitch.

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Coil.
The one that kind of introduces

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him to fundamentalism.
Well you let's see trying to

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think.
Yeah, he it wasn't him.

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It was his cousin that he met in
Salt Lake City, that took him to

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to the dream line, okay?
So who's the geertz ins?

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Now, the Garrison name was part
of the dream.

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Mind, Joe Garrison was kind of
being prepped to follow Bishop

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coil afterwards and then there
was kind of a coup and another

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guy got in, but so he learned a
little bit of that, but But

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then, he also met Joseph Mauser
around that same time.

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And so he started getting into
fundamentalism.

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But then he met Bishop coil, and
Bishop coil, you know, it was

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pretty much a fundamentalist,
you know, and his thoughts and

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actions and everything.
And one time dad told me, he

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said he was asking Bishop coil
about the atom God Doctrine, and

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he's kind of showing him quotes
and asking questions, and he

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kind of said there and nodded
his head and this and That and

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then they were in a wagon they
were actually driving in a

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horse-drawn carriage wagon and
and then they got where they

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were going and Bishop coil got
out of the out of the wagon to

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go where he was gonna go and he
turned around and my dad and he

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said, Adam is your father and
God and don't you forget it?

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And then he left.
Nice is, that was the shortest

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ever had him on.
Adam God, so he missed it meets

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Bishop coil.
This is all before his mission.

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That's correct.
And this is what happened.

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Dad, dad wanted.
So he was there with Bishop

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00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,400
coil.
He went through all the

224
00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,500
Miracles, all the forcing.
You know, we're going to see a

225
00:13:34,508 --> 00:13:38,200
map of the United States today.
None of them understood it.

226
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,500
They blasted out one of the Rock
and there's this, you know,

227
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,800
courts.
That looks just like the United

228
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,700
States map and he's like holy
cow.

229
00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:49,300
And so all this stuff kept
happening and he gets to the

230
00:13:49,300 --> 00:13:52,200
very end and the mind shutting
down and coils.

231
00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:57,500
We getting aged and and dad
still there, kind of assisting

232
00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:02,600
and helping and he but he wants
to go on a mission and he tells

233
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:07,000
Bishop coil that he wants to go
the old style, the old way

234
00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:11,900
without precursor script.
And Coyle says, he looks out the

235
00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:15,400
window and he's thinking and
he's meditating on it and then

236
00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:20,300
he comes back and he says stone
wall, he called me a nickname.

237
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,600
My dad's Stonewall because it
was just Remove German, you

238
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,300
know?
Right, right.

239
00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:28,500
He says.
And he says Stonewall, I think

240
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:34,200
you might just get that wish
Hmm, and then my dad left on his

241
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,000
mission coil was kind of sad,
and then coiled died.

242
00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:39,400
Not very long after that.
So, where did you dad?

243
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,100
Go on this Mission.
My dad went to Southern States.

244
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:48,100
Mission was his Southern Arizona
and Southern California, and his

245
00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:50,300
mission.
President was Bruce Army.

246
00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:57,400
Conky's father, Oscar really?
And so the day my dad gets into

247
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,800
the mission field.
He's sitting outside and one of

248
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,300
the guys comes out The other
Elders comes out of Oscar

249
00:15:04,300 --> 00:15:11,200
macaques.
Office door and he walks out and

250
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,400
he goes, oh no they're going to
make us go without purses script

251
00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:19,600
which is what your dad wanted.
Yeah.

252
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,200
And my end McConkey, had that
dream the night before my dad

253
00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,700
got there.
Wow, and then so they went he

254
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:31,700
went a full two years without
purchase crib.

255
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,600
And then the day that my dad
left, McConkey, had a revelation

256
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:43,100
to go back to the new way.
Wow, so my dad was the last

257
00:15:43,700 --> 00:15:48,600
full-time two-year missionary
the server without person script

258
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,200
and it was in the 40s.
So real quick, did your dad have

259
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,500
any any experiences on his
mission?

260
00:15:56,500 --> 00:16:00,600
That he related to you that that
you feel would like foreshadow.

261
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:06,000
What he would do later in life.
Yeah, he actually wrote an

262
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,600
entire thing called missionary
experiences.

263
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:18,200
But he never forced shadowed or
saw anything about you know,

264
00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,500
about writing books, or writing
those things or doing any of

265
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:23,500
that.
He had no idea that that was

266
00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:29,100
going to come.
That actually came later after

267
00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:31,900
he'd been married.
And my family had a real

268
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:35,600
devastating Farm burned, down.
And burned, everybody almost

269
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,400
killed my dad.
And mom, my mom was about 60 to

270
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:40,900
70 percent.
Everybody.

271
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:44,200
Third degree burn and they gave
up on her because she's going to

272
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,900
die and then she lived.
And she was the first person

273
00:16:47,900 --> 00:16:52,900
that actually had plastic
surgery is that what they call

274
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:57,400
it.
You have plastic plastic surgery

275
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:02,500
skin graft.
Yeah, skin grafting that

276
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:04,500
actually worked.
Wow.

277
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:08,099
So she was one of the first ones
and she kept telling the doctors

278
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:10,400
you got to have vitamin D, you
got to have Germany.

279
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,000
And they put vitamin E on her.
And then after that, she, she

280
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,300
got better and work.
But, but so, anyway, that, that

281
00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:21,200
happened that devastated they
were in Fruita Colorado Grand

282
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,300
Junction area.
He gets a job at dugway Proving

283
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:29,300
Grounds moves here and and then
he's at dugway.

284
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:34,300
And then one night, he actually
has an experience where he says

285
00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:38,200
that an angel, he wrote it as a
dream, he liked to do that.

286
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,000
He didn't want to make it sound
real fan.

287
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,800
Here, some angel, or whatever,
but an angel came through the

288
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,600
window, as he related it, to us,
children and the angel, stood

289
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,600
about three feet above the
ground, and stood there, with

290
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,900
the big book, like a big Bible.
And he shows it to my dad and my

291
00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:59,900
dad looks at it in the dream and
the angel turns, some of the

292
00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:04,400
pages so he can kind of see what
what it was and is he's turning

293
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,000
these Pages.
My dad looks at it and he's

294
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:08,300
reading it and he goes, oh my
gosh.

295
00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:11,300
That's that's that's kind of my
my style of writing.

296
00:18:11,300 --> 00:18:15,600
That's my, you know, anything
starts thinking, did I write

297
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,400
this book?
And it looks at the Angel and

298
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,800
telepathically, the angel says,
yes you wrote this, you're going

299
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,400
through this and then they just
this was before he met your mom.

300
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,200
Now this is after they were mad.
Okay?

301
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:37,700
And so yeah, he had four kids by
then and I wasn't born yet and

302
00:18:37,700 --> 00:18:43,400
so anyway so he comes and shuts
the book and then he said out

303
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,600
the window he went and then I
realized that they didn't was

304
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,100
shown to him the books, you
know, like United order and this

305
00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:53,000
and that and he had all these
subjects.

306
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,900
And we even have one of his hand
sketched, like he wrote out

307
00:18:57,900 --> 00:19:00,900
enzyme to the nation's and he
wrote All This and everything

308
00:19:01,100 --> 00:19:03,800
and put some of the listings of
the books that he was supposed

309
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:08,100
to put in there where he drew
that out, I guess the day that

310
00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:12,600
that happened.
So now, so let me just make sure

311
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,800
I'm caught up here, so he gets
home from his mission, he meets

312
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,800
his wife, they are better on a
mission.

313
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:22,700
He actually met her in the
mission field, really?

314
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,500
Then and then he kept writing
her and then after he got off

315
00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:29,600
his mission he came and got her
and married her nice.

316
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:34,900
So so he they get married.
They moved to dugway and there

317
00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:39,200
is where he kind of receives his
commission if you will, that has

318
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,700
great.
This is your mission.

319
00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:43,700
This is what you're going to do
this.

320
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:50,300
He start on it right away.
He starts compiling, a lot of

321
00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:54,000
information, you know, just
ideas and things and whatever,

322
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,700
but it never really kicked into
gear and tail.

323
00:19:58,700 --> 00:20:02,000
He wrote a little pamphlet
called Jesus was married.

324
00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:06,500
Okay, which was a really hot
item at that time.

325
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:09,000
And he wrote this pamphlet, he
tell me a story.

326
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,300
He went down to to BYU because
there was lots of controversy on

327
00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:16,700
that at the time and he printed
out 500-pound plaits.

328
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:22,500
And he took him to the 70s
bookstore and he said all of

329
00:20:22,508 --> 00:20:25,600
them sold out before he even got
back to Doug way.

330
00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:28,300
Wow.
So was he a full-blown

331
00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:29,800
fundamentalist?
By this point?

332
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:34,100
Kevin he was still, he had met
cluster, he had all the

333
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:38,000
experiences with Bishop coil.
I mean, he knew all this

334
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,200
material, he knew the
fundamentalist Concepts and the

335
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,300
doctrines but he's he was still
in the church and very active

336
00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:52,200
and started writing books.
Like the Jesus was married, he

337
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,500
actually decided he'd write a
book so he wrote an actual book

338
00:20:55,500 --> 00:21:00,100
on it and then that started
selling he wrote one on the 70s.

339
00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:04,300
He wrote one on and Price and
crucifixion, he wrote he wrote

340
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,800
several books.
There was about eight or nine

341
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:11,000
that were being sold at Deseret
Book.

342
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,500
He outsold Bruce are McConkey,
whoo-hoo.

343
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,000
So Bruce was a little bit you
know?

344
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,300
Little, you know, and my dad
always was friends with Bruce

345
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:32,900
and with Bruce's, dad, Oscar, he
always talk to Oscar, you know,

346
00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:36,700
till the day Oscar died, they
were good friends.

347
00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:39,800
You know going back to what you
said that you know your dad had

348
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,000
met with muster.
He had met with with some other,

349
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,700
you know, coil that wasn't that
unusual for that time period,

350
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,300
right.
I think today and fundamentalism

351
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,600
we see a very Stark line, right?
Which is you're either a

352
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,400
fundamentalist or your Member of
the LDS church back in those

353
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,200
days.
It from some of the older guys

354
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,400
have talked to that line was a
bit blurred there for a long

355
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,100
time, right?
I mean, you could go to the LDS

356
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:08,900
church, you could fulfill your
calling.

357
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:14,200
But if you wanted higher things
sometimes before muster was

358
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,000
really on the outs with the
church from my understanding, as

359
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,400
the church would refer people
back to muster if they had deep

360
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,100
questions, her friends and so
that the line between fun And

361
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:30,500
mentalism and LDS wasn't as
Stark as what we think of now is

362
00:22:30,500 --> 00:22:32,200
that kind of your understanding
as well?

363
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,200
Yes, there were a lot of LDS
people, in fact that we're

364
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,700
living plural marriage at that
time.

365
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,700
The 50s the 60s, a lot of fun.
There's, there's a lot of this

366
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:45,800
stuff going on.
There's a lot of people in the

367
00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:49,300
upper echelon of the church that
believed all the fundamentalist

368
00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:52,400
Doctrine.
I mean, Jay golden Kimball was

369
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,800
one of them who Jay Gould and
Kimball was life was saved by

370
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,800
Should coil.
The Christian coil was young

371
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,500
missionary in Jay, golden
Kimball's and jiggle, and

372
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:05,400
Kimball was his mission
president.

373
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:09,300
And he told him, don't go to
this meeting President because

374
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:11,800
if you do, the mobs are going to
kill you.

375
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,300
And there were, there were down
on the south, which hated

376
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:16,900
Mormons.
And so, he saved his life.

377
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,300
And so, Jay golden had stock in
the dream mine and a lot of

378
00:23:21,308 --> 00:23:24,400
different ones were.
And so there was a lot of mixing

379
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:29,900
in between, in fact, Joseph
muster I was asked to come to

380
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:33,200
the temple, and here he was
outside the church, but he was

381
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,700
actually asked to come to the
temple and get his second and

382
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:38,200
awnings.
And that's and that's what I

383
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,600
understand is that from doing my
reading and talking to some

384
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,000
older folks, it wasn't a stark
line, right?

385
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:51,400
I mean, it was, it was a lot,
there was a lot more gray area,

386
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,700
so to speak when it came to are
you fundamentalist or are you

387
00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:57,600
LDS?
And it really doesn't seem to be

388
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,900
about until the The 70s that
that, that line becomes Stark

389
00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:04,100
and you, you know, it's one of
those lines that you have to

390
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:09,100
make a choice on now.
Sure in the 50s when they

391
00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:12,100
brought a lot of the council and
threw them in jail, that was

392
00:24:12,100 --> 00:24:17,200
under Heber J Grant era, a lot
of that happen fundamentalist

393
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,200
kind of got thrown in jail.
There's a lot of stuff kind of

394
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,900
starting around that time the
60s.

395
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:27,100
Nothing too much went on.
But in the 70s, what happened

396
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:30,500
was remember, it was after it
was Bishop.

397
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:34,300
Coil, was basically
excommunicated by Marquis

398
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:36,200
Peterson.
Right.

399
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,400
Marquis Peterson's, what the
put, the pressure on, and then,

400
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,600
because Dad had association with
the dream, mine and Bishop

401
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,400
coils, and now, Marquis Peterson
started coming after Dad.

402
00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:52,300
In fact, one time they came, he
caught Marquis Peterson called

403
00:24:52,500 --> 00:24:56,100
President Johnson out in
Grantsville and said, you need

404
00:24:56,100 --> 00:25:00,300
to excommunicate Ogden Kraut and
he goes why he's one of my best

405
00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:02,900
guys in this state.
He knows more than any of us.

406
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,700
How would I, why would I do
that?

407
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:07,300
And they said, oh, Because he
wrote that Jesus was married

408
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:11,500
book and he goes well okay, um,
whatever.

409
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:13,700
And so he hung up the phone that
he called.

410
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,900
Then John's is called my dad
right away instance.

411
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,100
Now guess what?
Marquis Peterson's after and he

412
00:25:19,100 --> 00:25:22,600
goes what and he says, he's mad.
Because you wrote that joke

413
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,400
book, Jesus was married, and my
dad said, well, you tell, Mark

414
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,300
Peterson that I went up to the
president of the church.

415
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:35,600
Joseph Fielding Smith and showed
him my manuscript.

416
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:39,400
Before I ever completed, Jesus
was married.

417
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:42,300
And he said, yeah, the storage
right there, the marriage in

418
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:43,600
Canaan.
That was Jesus.

419
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,100
That was his experience.
He goes.

420
00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:47,100
Yeah.
It was great Ogden, but maybe

421
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:49,800
you could call it was, Jesus
married.

422
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,400
Or maybe.
Jesus was married.

423
00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:55,300
And my dad said, well, was here.
Wasn't he?

424
00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:00,200
And so Joseph Fielding goes.
Well, alright go ahead.

425
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,700
There it is and so I got
approval from him who's the

426
00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:06,800
higher ranking officer here?
Sorry.

427
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:10,800
You know, and so anyways the
stake president called back Mark

428
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,400
Peterson and Mark was really
upset but so he just found him

429
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,600
on some other grounds and
excommunicating.

430
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,500
So Mark Peterson was kind of the
hatchet man and he was kind of

431
00:26:20,500 --> 00:26:23,500
out getting everybody that he
could to had fundamentalist

432
00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:28,200
leanings around that time.
So did your dad become?

433
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:32,000
I don't know what their correct,
verbage would be what he become

434
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,900
like a full-blown fundamentalist
before or after his

435
00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:38,100
excommunication?
I think he was before.

436
00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:43,400
It is is there a time?
You can think back onto like

437
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,500
where you can is there an
experience you had with him when

438
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:48,900
you were a kid, when maybe he
was still in the church where

439
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:52,200
you could be like yeah he was a
fundamentalist back then.

440
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,200
Well, I know that he believed
all the fundamentalist

441
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,200
teachings, I didn't know much
about him and his beliefs on

442
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,600
plural marriage.
You know, I knew he believed it

443
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,400
and this kind of thing.
A lot of the plural marriage

444
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,700
happened after his
excommunication and there might

445
00:27:09,700 --> 00:27:13,500
have been some before that.
I don't know.

446
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:19,700
But yeah, he always went to
fundamentalist houses and there

447
00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:22,200
were a lot of fundamentalist
that came and they had two or

448
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,900
three wives And he visited with
them and and but see, you know,

449
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:35,000
I was eight years old and my dad
baptized me in Grantsville and

450
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,000
and you know, and it wasn't a
grand experience, you know, a

451
00:27:38,008 --> 00:27:40,200
beautiful experience, come up
out of the water and

452
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,900
prophesying.
I'm seeing things and, you know,

453
00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:45,900
my brother's going to do this,
my sister's going to do this and

454
00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:48,800
I do, you know, I don't even
remember the experience to.

455
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,100
Well, I remember some of that,
but my sister, she recorded all

456
00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:54,600
that experience.
So, if my dad didn't have any

457
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,500
priesthood or the resistance
that I mean, you know, there was

458
00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:01,900
some real effects Effectiveness
to that baptism and then it was

459
00:28:01,900 --> 00:28:05,500
probably only three or four
months later that my dad was

460
00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:07,300
excommunicated.
Okay.

461
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,400
All right, so do you remember
his excommunication?

462
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,700
I knew very well.
What happened there?

463
00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:20,700
Well, ironically, he didn't go
to the excommunication, he just

464
00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:23,900
figured it was a kangaroo court,
that was all, that was going to

465
00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:26,200
happen.
And and so, they'd already

466
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,800
announced to him that what's
going to happen and President

467
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,100
Johnson told him well be ready
because there, they finally got

468
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:36,000
you and that kind of stuff.
And so he didn't, he didn't go.

469
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,500
But I remember how quickly and
viciously people in the ward

470
00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:45,300
turned against my father.
I mean, my dad knew more than

471
00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:49,000
Any of those people I guarantee
there wasn't one other person

472
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,200
that had the scholarship my dad
did and and I remember one of

473
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,400
the neighbors right next to us
across the street.

474
00:28:56,500 --> 00:29:00,100
You know he came over and told
my mom in front of me, he's

475
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:04,300
going to be a son of perdition.
He's going to go that far jeez.

476
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,400
Oh yeah it was all this horrible
stuff and and then I got treated

477
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:15,300
pretty bad and there was some
real there were kids.

478
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,800
Ed's at dugway the beat me up
because my dad was also a

479
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,000
well-known figure to, you know,
and fundamentalist after that,

480
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,100
you know, within two to three
years.

481
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:29,700
People were there was the John
Singer situation happening.

482
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:32,400
Where the guy got shot in the
back for homeschooling.

483
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,500
He was, he was very well on the
news and he times situations

484
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:40,100
happened with fundamentalist.
They have been you know, he was

485
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:44,800
a common individual if there
were problems in court, he was

486
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,500
considered a Professional
witness.

487
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:48,800
So he'd come in and explain to
the court.

488
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,000
Why this and this, and why they
believe that, it wasn't long

489
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,800
after that, that rule and
already got killed, right?

490
00:29:57,500 --> 00:30:01,100
That made headline news, you
know, and so all that was all in

491
00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:04,900
the news all and things.
And I remember a bunch of bit,

492
00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:11,000
the deacons teachers that came
and beat me up because my dad

493
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,800
was a polygamist and pretty
hard.

494
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,000
Actually, I was pretty big kid.
I pretty much defended myself to

495
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,700
all of them got on me and and
they beat me all up and then and

496
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:25,300
then I went past the sacrament
with a black eye and everything,

497
00:30:25,300 --> 00:30:30,400
you know, just in spite of
Right.

498
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:35,500
So what was the relationship
between you and your dad?

499
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:39,000
Like, during that time, did you
like ever blame your dad for any

500
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,600
of that stuff for?
Well, I didn't, I always kind of

501
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,500
saw a different view than my
mother did like one time after

502
00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:51,200
that, you know, she came in and
she says, well, your dad wants

503
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,700
to give you a blessing because I
was very sick as a kid.

504
00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:57,000
Yeah, probably dugway.
And all its, you know,

505
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,500
contaminants.
But anyway, I was sitting on the

506
00:30:59,508 --> 00:31:02,600
couch and he came in and gave me
a blessing, I got better right

507
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,900
away, and she had told me all,
since he's got member of the

508
00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,000
church, you know, that it
probably won't work.

509
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,700
Just so, you understand, you
know.

510
00:31:10,100 --> 00:31:12,100
And then it worked.
And then I was Confused.

511
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:14,000
I'm like okay.
What's going on here?

512
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,500
But then growing up with my
mother.

513
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:22,100
She started having a real hatred
towards plural marriage and you

514
00:31:22,100 --> 00:31:24,900
know and wild and hurt.
Didn't get along too great.

515
00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:28,100
And there were some issues going
on there, that it kind of

516
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:33,900
stagnated, a lot of my feelings.
You know, towards towards the

517
00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:37,400
church, there was some in after
seeing how they treated my dad

518
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,800
after, they did this and my dad.
And I my dad was a very Noble

519
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,300
person.
He people people like him on

520
00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:48,800
either side, they didn't matter.
I had a lady once that all if he

521
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,800
hadn't got into that polygamy
but we just loved your dad.

522
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,100
He was so fun, he did this, you
know, just that's how people

523
00:31:56,100 --> 00:32:04,800
were, they felt that type of
personality so, At, what point

524
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,200
does, does your dad become
polygamist?

525
00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:11,300
What point does he take another
wife on that?

526
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,800
I don't and can't tell you.
I know the second wife was an

527
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,300
wild.
I don't know the exact date on

528
00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:20,900
that.
They've kind of kept that a

529
00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:23,400
little bit private.
I'm just leaving, it may have

530
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,400
been a year or two earlier.
I'm not sure.

531
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:31,900
Gotcha, gotcha.
Okay, so he's a practicing

532
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,800
polygamist, he's been
excommunicated you bear the

533
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,300
brunt of some of that.
When does he really start

534
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:47,000
getting his sources together?
And where is he finding his

535
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,600
sources for his books?
Okay, so the one unique thing

536
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,500
about my dad and Bruce are
McConkey and Hugh Nibley and Few

537
00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:00,400
others that I met.
They all had photographic

538
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,200
memories.
And so, my dad, having all the

539
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,000
people that told him where you
need to read this book or read

540
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,400
the Journal of discourses are
read this or contributor, all

541
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,600
these different ones and then he
kind of made friends with some

542
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,000
of the guys at the, at The
Archives.

543
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:22,300
And so he got into some of the
archival stuff that other people

544
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:26,700
didn't get into and dad did
favors for the archivist.

545
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:30,600
They had, they said, we can't
find this book or we can't find

546
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,700
this and Dad Dad.
You Some of his influence

547
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:37,000
through the military, or people
or power, or whatever, because

548
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,200
he worked for the government at
dugway and he was one of the, I

549
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,600
didn't know this, but he was one
of the highest we call it.

550
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:54,500
levels of Civilian contractor.
Well, he was a civilian

551
00:33:54,500 --> 00:34:00,500
contractor but he, there's a
pass like a few security or it's

552
00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:03,600
a highest security level
security clearance.

553
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,199
Yes, we had one of the highest
security clearances and the

554
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,699
government and and there's a
word for it, but I can't think

555
00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:13,699
of it right now.
But anyway, a CIA guy.

556
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:17,500
I'm that one time he told me, he
said, well, he must have been a

557
00:34:17,507 --> 00:34:21,300
photographer and I said, well,
as a matter of fact, he was and

558
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,699
I said, well, that's the
difference because if he was a

559
00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:30,100
very trusted photographer then
he had to have been had a high

560
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:31,600
clearance.
That's the name.

561
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,800
Click OK.
Say it one of the highest

562
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,100
clearances and he said because
you know, a guy walks out and

563
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:40,600
says, hey I saw this little
alien and they had this wise and

564
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,500
they were green and you know,
and people go oh that's

565
00:34:43,500 --> 00:34:45,800
interesting.
See you making that up but you

566
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,900
know, photography he can go.
Hey, look, here's the little

567
00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:51,199
alien.
There's a guy named Ian.

568
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:53,600
You know, back then they didn't
have Photoshop, you know?

569
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,600
So I was pretty, pretty
important stuff.

570
00:34:56,100 --> 00:34:59,900
And so my dad, even to the day
died, I tried to pull stuff out

571
00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:01,100
of me and, you know, what about
this?

572
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:04,300
And what about that, government
thing, and he said, Son, you, I

573
00:35:04,300 --> 00:35:06,800
know you're trying really hard
and I know you want me to tell,

574
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,800
but unless it's less has been
brought in the opener, in the

575
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,700
news, or whatever, or
Declassified.

576
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,500
I can't tell you, and I won't
tell you and Joseph Smith could

577
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:22,300
keep a secret till doomsday and
so, can I Nice.

578
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:24,800
So he was a man of his word just
be period.

579
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:31,000
Yeah.
So you talked about him getting

580
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,700
noticed a lot, right?
That the media seems to come to

581
00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:39,500
him for Quest For answers,
anytime something happens of

582
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,300
significance within the realm of
fundamentalism.

583
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,000
What was it?
That Drew all those folks to

584
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,300
him?
It had to be his personality.

585
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:57,600
And what was that like?
Well, I think he was very funny,

586
00:35:57,900 --> 00:36:05,300
you know, he was charismatic, he
was very non-judgmental, you

587
00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:09,100
know, I got a lot of my mother,
who's pretty, you know, Irish

588
00:36:09,100 --> 00:36:15,800
and stubborn and, you know that
but but he was yeah and a lot of

589
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:21,600
people sent their people to him
because he was able to kind of

590
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,600
The people and they, I watched,
even people come in and they

591
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:28,600
start talking about aliens and
this and that and whatever.

592
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,600
And he kind of not as a.
Oh, that's interesting.

593
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:32,200
That's it.
She wouldn't argue with them or

594
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,700
wouldn't anything and he just
and then they leave a nice come

595
00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:36,200
on, dad, you don't believe in
all that.

596
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:37,800
I know, you know, what about
this?

597
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,100
What about that?
And he goes well there's a

598
00:36:39,107 --> 00:36:41,300
little bit of proof of that and
a little bit of proof of this.

599
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:45,000
And and you know what he says,
it's okay, they're sharing their

600
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,100
view, I'm quite happy to hear
their view, you know, and so he

601
00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:52,100
was It was kind of his
personality like for Instance,

602
00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:57,200
he wasn't really, he would hide
behind a certain things, but he

603
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,600
was very, very stubborn about
other things.

604
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:04,200
Like, for instance, one of the
FBI agents, when the one of the

605
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,600
LDS church has got blew up, it
was one of the senior gang at

606
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,100
the very end.
They were mad about the

607
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:13,700
government and the church and
they went and blew up at one of

608
00:37:13,707 --> 00:37:16,300
the churches.
I don't know if you ever heard

609
00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:18,400
about that story I never heard
that know.

610
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,800
So so they blow up the church
and they and They're hiding out

611
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,700
in the government's trying to
come, get them and they're

612
00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:28,400
worried because there's going to
be a standoff, they got lots of

613
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,600
guns and and the police are, you
know, surrounding and they Takin

614
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:36,400
shots or they're threatening.
And so there was all this worry.

615
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,400
And so the FBI they go to all
the fundamentalist people they

616
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:44,300
can and they say we need
somebody to be a liaison

617
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:47,200
between, you know, or an agent
to go and talk to these people.

618
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,700
We need some some sort of
negotiation to happen here and

619
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,300
And, and the FBI agent came to
my dad.

620
00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:57,000
And my dad kept trying to send
him off going somewhere else.

621
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:02,100
And he says, if I nice it Ogden,
every single person said, your

622
00:38:02,100 --> 00:38:06,900
name, There is nobody else that,
that they feel could go and

623
00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:11,300
negotiate this.
So my dad said, okay, so he's

624
00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:18,000
driving down the road.
And and, and so this FBI agent

625
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,700
says, you know, we have been
doing some research and found

626
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:27,100
out that you have a second wife.
You have to why isn't Dad goes?

627
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:31,600
Well, that's not correct.
And he goes, oh no.

628
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,400
You see, we, we have all this
proof and we have this and that

629
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:40,200
it and we even think we know who
she is, and we know you have two

630
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,300
wives in my dad said, no, that's
not correct.

631
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:53,700
I have five wives and the FBI
agent just, you know, it was

632
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:56,300
totally, you know, not even
expected.

633
00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:59,200
He just starts laughing like you
did, and then, and then after

634
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,200
that, the FBI guy, My dad.
They were, they were just

635
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,800
buddies.
You know, do you think one of

636
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,200
the other reasons your dad was
maybe so trusted and respected

637
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,100
was his because he didn't
necessarily join a group

638
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:13,200
correct.
Yeah.

639
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:18,300
That was the one thing that
that, no matter who I've talked

640
00:39:18,300 --> 00:39:24,000
to, some of the old timers, all
mentioned your dad, as someone

641
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,200
they would talk to you.
And typically within

642
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,000
fundamentalism, I've known
there's there's kind of like to

643
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,800
camp He's right.
One Camp is your completely

644
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,400
independent.
The other Camp is that you

645
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,900
belong to a group right now.
If you belong to a group,

646
00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:41,900
there's not a lot of cross
conversation from one group to

647
00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:45,400
another correct.
And, and your dad always seem to

648
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,900
be kind of from everything I
could gather kind of be above

649
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:52,000
that Frey because he didn't
really have a dog in the fight.

650
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,200
So to speak about, who was the
man with the keys, so to speak.

651
00:39:56,500 --> 00:39:59,600
And so you seem to think that
that played in pretty heavily to

652
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:02,400
Are you feeling comfortable,
talking dog?

653
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,000
In is the fact that, you know,
Ogden of Ogden doesn't have a

654
00:40:05,008 --> 00:40:11,900
dog in this fight, so to speak.
yeah, I think he was You know,

655
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:15,500
they had said, back in the old
days, Bishop coil.

656
00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:19,300
I found this out later, Bishop
coil, it also kind of

657
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:22,000
prophetically seen what was
going to happen, and some of the

658
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,900
groups and he said to be very
careful of some of the groups

659
00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:31,300
that are rising up in the last
days, be very careful, didn't

660
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:34,300
the state not join them or this
or that but just be very

661
00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:37,700
careful.
And so dad was a little bit

662
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:42,900
nervous and some of the groups
he'd already been Threatened by

663
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,800
ervil, LeBaron, that was another
one.

664
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:51,800
He was on ervil's death list,
like ruin was and anybody that

665
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,300
didn't come join ervil and
comply with everything he said

666
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:57,800
was, you know, he was going to
try to take him out and kill

667
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,200
him.
Right?

668
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,400
What was your dad's impression
of ruin?

669
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,600
Very high.
Yeah, he had a high respect for

670
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:13,600
ruin the many times dad.
He Dad.

671
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,200
See ruling was set apart by
Joseph Mauser.

672
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,600
Almost same time.
My dad was okay and ruins

673
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:27,400
mission was as a, as a high
priest, Apostle to perform and

674
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,900
do this, these ordinances.
And, you know, take care of

675
00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:32,500
certain things.
That was that was his duty.

676
00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:36,800
And when my dad was set apart,
he was set apart as Even the

677
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:43,000
Apostle, and he said, in the
prayer to preach the gospel, far

678
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,800
and wide, okay?
So there, there was something

679
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,600
else that pointed to your dad's
Ministry, so to speak.

680
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,500
Correct.
And that was mustard.

681
00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:54,800
That pretty much for told that
before my dad ever had the

682
00:41:54,808 --> 00:41:58,000
mission with the angel or any of
that, that came later.

683
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,100
Okay.
All right, his hope you got.

684
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,400
He'd actually gotten priesthood
from muster and been set apart

685
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:09,000
before he went on his mission.
You got you got you what kind of

686
00:42:09,008 --> 00:42:12,100
steps did your dad take when?
He was fact checking documents

687
00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:15,100
that's something else.
I've always always respected a

688
00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:17,600
lot, is that a source has always
seemed to be impeccable?

689
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,700
What was he doing?
As far as fact-checking when he

690
00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:24,400
was going in and Diving deep
into those old documents?

691
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,500
Well, from what I remember, you
know, like I talked about the

692
00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:33,800
notebooks, mmm.
So let's say Dad would be

693
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,800
studying something like, Adam
God.

694
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,000
So he would go and get all the
references that he could.

695
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:44,600
And then and then he didn't, he
didn't just kind of write down

696
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,200
the reference or any of that.
He had a little spy camera.

697
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,800
And he would that he got from
the government and so he would

698
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:56,600
actually take pictures of the
document and then he would you

699
00:42:56,600 --> 00:43:00,200
know, take a photo of it and
then on an eight and a half by

700
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,100
eleven photo paper and then he
had three hole punch it and

701
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:06,400
stick it in a notebook.
So he had a lot of that

702
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,100
information.
So he was using all his

703
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:15,400
knowledge that he had back in
the day to do all this stuff.

704
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:22,000
So sorry and sickle So he and
then of course, he would go to

705
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,100
the archives.
She would ask them a lot of

706
00:43:25,107 --> 00:43:27,400
times.
There were issues that happened.

707
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:33,500
Like, for instance, there was a
first presidency bald that

708
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:37,100
didn't exist, you know, and the
church never claimed that it was

709
00:43:37,100 --> 00:43:42,300
their right and dad knew that
there was a couple references in

710
00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:44,700
there, but he couldn't get to
him.

711
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:51,300
And one of them was in the John
Tater papers or the Diary of

712
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:54,700
John Tater.
So he got ahold of Samuel Tater,

713
00:43:55,300 --> 00:44:00,200
who was John, John W Tater son,
who wrote, Flubber and other

714
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:07,600
movies, for Walt Disney, right?
So one day, Samuel calls stall

715
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,800
Lake City and he calls the first
presidency and they're all

716
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:13,700
conference getting ready for
conference in the secretary

717
00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:16,600
answers the phone.
And he says, can you do me a

718
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,700
favor?
He says go back in the first.

719
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,200
This is Vault and on the right
hand side, there's my

720
00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:28,400
grandfather, John taters diary
and then their about page 53.

721
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,300
There's it says that it's
something like this, and if you

722
00:44:32,300 --> 00:44:36,100
can just tell me if it was this
phrase or this phrase that would

723
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:39,400
help me out and she goes.
Okay, and she goes back and

724
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,500
gets, it comes back out, she's
as well.

725
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:43,700
It was on the left side, not on
the right side.

726
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:48,600
But but yet, here it is right
here, page 53, and it reads like

727
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,600
this.
Us and she read it off and it

728
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,500
was just what my dad had and
then she goes.

729
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:55,300
Okay.
Anything else and he goes well,

730
00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:57,300
what about this page?
It was there something else in

731
00:44:57,300 --> 00:44:58,800
here?
And so she gets all these

732
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,100
checked out by her and then she
closes it up and takes it back

733
00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:06,200
into the first presidency.
Vault doesn't exist.

734
00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:10,600
And my dad, you know, got that
information from Sam and they

735
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:15,400
were both laughing forever right
back.

736
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,700
That's some of his techniques
that he used to.

737
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:24,300
Beck's. so another question I've
always had about your dad is

738
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:29,200
because he was so knowledgeable
about the gospel, he had seen a

739
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:35,200
lot of first-hand documents,
Because of the very nature of

740
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,200
people and especially Mormons,
right?

741
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,700
Because we are a very queer,
people who love hierarchy,

742
00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:43,800
right?
Because that's kind of the way

743
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,800
the gospel was first introduced,
right?

744
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,900
You have a first presidency, a
quorum of The Twelve.

745
00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:56,100
I imagine that he must have
gotten some sort of push, I

746
00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:58,900
guess.
From from some some people to

747
00:45:58,900 --> 00:46:02,700
you should really start a church
or you should really do.

748
00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:06,600
Y and Z and be a leader.
How was it your dad was able to

749
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:12,700
thin that off for so long?
That's a good question.

750
00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:14,800
I don't know exactly how that
was.

751
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,300
I just know that he was very
stubborn and Stonewall and he

752
00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:23,400
felt like dearly brethren in the
fundamentalist movement said,

753
00:46:23,500 --> 00:46:29,100
you know, to not get into a
group and and he said that they

754
00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:32,800
would have to be like a lone
wolf in the wilderness.

755
00:46:33,100 --> 00:46:38,100
He to each one have to stand
like a tub on its own bottom and

756
00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:41,300
so there was a lot of that kind
of things that was told in

757
00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:46,900
Beginning and dad never felt
like it was his commission to

758
00:46:46,900 --> 00:46:51,100
start a group or or any of that.
His big push was to get these

759
00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:54,900
books done, an angel
commissioned him and he felt

760
00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:58,100
inspired to spread the gospel
far and wide and that's the best

761
00:46:58,100 --> 00:46:59,900
way that he felt he could do
that.

762
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,300
So he just really stayed focused
on his mission.

763
00:47:03,700 --> 00:47:06,300
Correct.
And he had a lot of people, a

764
00:47:06,300 --> 00:47:09,900
lot of people came later even
after the funeral and said, man,

765
00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:12,300
out of join his group, I had I
have done this.

766
00:47:12,300 --> 00:47:15,800
I have done that.
And and dad the other problem is

767
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,200
Dad felt that it was a little
higher level.

768
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,700
It's difficult more difficult to
be on your own.

769
00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:25,800
And so, a lot of people would
come out of the church.

770
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,000
They join me Allred group there
are bees dissatisfaction with

771
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,000
them or something, and then they
would come to Dad and they

772
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,900
become an independent and he'd
say, well, now you've arrived.

773
00:47:36,900 --> 00:47:39,300
Now, you're there, you don't
need the cried.

774
00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:41,400
She don't need the help of
these.

775
00:47:41,500 --> 00:47:46,000
Other Brethren to do this, you
know, because you're like a

776
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,000
prophet in the wilderness,
eating your locusts and honey,

777
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,600
you know, type thing you're on
your own, but he also said that,

778
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:57,700
not many people can do that, not
many people, you know, could go

779
00:47:57,700 --> 00:48:03,400
and and be on their own and do
their own thing, and he's very

780
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,100
independent type personality.
But also, I remember dad a

781
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:11,300
person coming in one day and
saying, I just felt the spirit

782
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:17,000
really strongly telling me to go
join the Allred group and I felt

783
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,100
very impressed to do so, and dad
and say, then that's what you

784
00:48:20,100 --> 00:48:21,600
should do.
You know, go do that.

785
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,200
You don't, you don't know the
reasons.

786
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:27,300
Why, you know, it might be
because your wife is there dad

787
00:48:27,300 --> 00:48:30,400
met one of his wives at an
Allred meeting?

788
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:34,300
And he said, he wasn't going to
go that day and he just got up

789
00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:38,200
and went took an and, and this
gal walks up to my dad and

790
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,000
starts talking to him.
And that's that's the third

791
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,000
wife.
That ended up having more

792
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,500
children.
And and, and they medically, all

793
00:48:47,500 --> 00:48:48,800
right group.
And so.

794
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:53,400
So I even tell people, you know,
will should I do this or should

795
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,900
I do that?
And I go, I'm not here to make

796
00:48:55,900 --> 00:48:59,700
your decision, you know, will
find me a wife you know, that's

797
00:48:59,700 --> 00:49:02,500
not my job.
That's your job, right?

798
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,200
You go, you go dude, I can help
or whatever but you know

799
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,700
ultimately that's between you
and heavenly father and what he

800
00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:12,600
wants you to do.
And and a lot of this is

801
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,000
stepping up the ladders and
Learning and progressing.

802
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:21,600
And so a lot like I have a lot
of friends who, you know, they

803
00:49:21,700 --> 00:49:24,700
they would go through group, so
they go to the church and then

804
00:49:24,707 --> 00:49:27,200
they'd read my dad's books and
then they're off on something

805
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:32,000
more deeper because Dad's books
are kind of what he said.

806
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,400
Was the beginning of the book,
the deeper gospel, there's

807
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,700
definitely more deeper
philosophies and deeper things

808
00:49:38,700 --> 00:49:46,800
that didn't write about and, and
so, so, It was pretty much from

809
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:51,500
what my view was.
It was very difficult for Dad to

810
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,300
tell people.
He wasn't starting a group, but

811
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:58,600
he tried to assist people to be
where they needed to be.

812
00:49:59,700 --> 00:50:01,900
Very much a facilitator in that
regard.

813
00:50:01,900 --> 00:50:05,500
There is much.
Yeah, so kind of a compiler of

814
00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:09,700
knowledge and then then a
facilitator, someone say Hey you

815
00:50:09,700 --> 00:50:14,300
know you feel strongly about
this go here, but understand, X,

816
00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:18,400
Y, or Z, and that sort of thing.
Well, when he he brought a lot

817
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,100
of people to the Allred group, I
mean, you know, in the

818
00:50:21,100 --> 00:50:25,100
beginning, he well, one of them
and this has been verified

819
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,700
several different ways, but one
time it was a general Authority

820
00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:30,700
that I wanted to get a second
wife.

821
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,500
Here he is up in the hierarchy
of the church and what you?

822
00:50:36,500 --> 00:50:38,200
Okay, hold on.
I'm gonna ask some questions

823
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,100
about this.
What year would this have been

824
00:50:40,100 --> 00:50:42,900
Kevin?
Okay so I'm assuming it would

825
00:50:42,900 --> 00:50:45,500
have been after he was
excommunicated so that would

826
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:47,800
have been in the 70s.
Okay?

827
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,200
So do we have any idea who this
General Authority was?

828
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,500
I asked Dad and he said, it's
sworn to secrecy.

829
00:50:54,500 --> 00:50:58,700
I'm not going to tell that.
So so here's but here's the

830
00:50:58,700 --> 00:51:06,200
interesting thing because Was I?
So he went, he re-baptized him

831
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,200
taught him all this stuff.
Got him.

832
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,900
All prep.
He and his two wives came to

833
00:51:11,900 --> 00:51:14,100
ruin.
They my dad introduced him to

834
00:51:14,100 --> 00:51:16,600
ruin and roll him.
It was right there.

835
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,300
Ruined brought in a couple of
witnesses, one was a woman.

836
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:26,900
And, and I talked to her and she
was, she verified that I was

837
00:51:26,900 --> 00:51:31,600
there when that happened.
I was there and I asked her.

838
00:51:31,700 --> 00:51:33,600
Oh, well.
Who's the general Authority?

839
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,800
And she kind of laughed and she
goes, oh, of course, I'm not

840
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:41,600
going to tell you that and so so
she at least verified that, that

841
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:46,300
was a real thing and, and so
ruling, did this.

842
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:50,900
But then later Owen kind of had
to have Council approval and

843
00:51:50,900 --> 00:51:53,600
they had to join their group,
and they had to pay tithing, and

844
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:57,700
they had to do this and all and,
and Dad and ruined, definitely

845
00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:00,700
felt that You know, because
that'd bring him and they'd be

846
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:04,800
baptized and then he would bring
him to the higher orders or

847
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:09,400
higher priesthood functions.
That ruin was doing, that was

848
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:14,400
his job to do.
So a 70 could actually do those

849
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,400
things but it wasn't that didn't
feel.

850
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,500
It was just calling to do those
ceilings or other things and

851
00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:23,000
whatever.
But he that he had the authority

852
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:27,700
could, you know, 70 was allowed
to basically build up an entire

853
00:52:27,700 --> 00:52:31,300
stake if need be And call the
High Council and all of that,

854
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,800
right?
So your dad never did any

855
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,400
ordinances or anything like that
for any other letters.

856
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:41,400
And later there were issues with
all one and Owen said well I

857
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,300
can't it can't because my
Council won't let me hear

858
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,100
something to that effect and
that's something that all do

859
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:50,100
them, you know, and I'll keep
record Wow.

860
00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:52,200
What was that?
Like for your dad to have to

861
00:52:52,207 --> 00:52:56,500
make that transition out of what
he felt was like really his

862
00:52:56,500 --> 00:53:03,000
calling as a as a missionary and
as a you know, a compiler of

863
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:07,300
History did that weigh on him
when he when he realized he was

864
00:53:07,300 --> 00:53:09,700
going to have to start doing
some of those things are, very

865
00:53:09,700 --> 00:53:14,100
upsetting was it, did he say
anything to you about it?

866
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:17,700
I was on the phone when he was
talking to Owen about it.

867
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,400
Really and he said on this is
just not the way, it's not the

868
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:26,900
way ruling did this, you know,
that's not how ruling did this.

869
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,100
And, you know, and then Dad made
a statement.

870
00:53:30,100 --> 00:53:35,300
He says now, does that mean that
your counsel is ruling over you

871
00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:38,400
or you rule over the council,
right?

872
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,800
And he didn't really say much.
So I don't know what was going

873
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:47,100
on with all and at that time It
had to have been kind of sad to

874
00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:50,000
watch your dad have to go
through that, right?

875
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:55,700
Because from all accounts, ruin
was just an amazing individual,

876
00:53:55,900 --> 00:54:02,300
a great priesthood holder.
Very loved by his people and

877
00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:05,600
just about all people.
So he sees the AUB and correct

878
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,800
me if I'm wrong here.
This time the AUB doesn't

879
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:12,100
necessarily consider themselves.
A church more as an auxiliary to

880
00:54:12,100 --> 00:54:16,000
the mother Church correct.
And they're very much saying

881
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,100
that the church is out of order.
We're not the church, we're not

882
00:54:20,100 --> 00:54:23,300
the ones, we're just waiting for
it to be set in order, right?

883
00:54:23,300 --> 00:54:26,900
So they are, they kind of thing.
And is this a correct

884
00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:28,400
assessment?
They kind of thought of

885
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,300
themselves.
This is like, an auxiliary of

886
00:54:30,300 --> 00:54:32,100
the church, would that be
correct?

887
00:54:32,500 --> 00:54:37,500
Kind of like the people who were
thrown out in the time of the

888
00:54:37,500 --> 00:54:40,800
rammy optim.
Okay, then Alma came and you

889
00:54:40,808 --> 00:54:43,000
know what?
You can still worship and you

890
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,700
know, you can still do this
without a church or without

891
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:48,100
this.
It was about the same as that

892
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:50,700
Joe.
Anyway, your dad sees all this

893
00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:54,400
kind of happening.
It must have been sad for him on

894
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:57,600
some level to watch it kind of
fall into disrepair, wasn't it?

895
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,200
Very, I watched my dad go
through a lot of Heartache, the

896
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:08,300
very last part of my Dad's life.
It seemed like it was all

897
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,400
disappointment.
He was sad about the church who

898
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:14,400
sad about the fundamentalist
people.

899
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,800
A lot of them have done, crazy
stuff, and gone off track.

900
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,100
And he just felt like the whole
world has gone to pot.

901
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,000
Yeah, yeah.
So I'm gonna ask you about some

902
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,200
specifics now because again,
your dad saw a lot of

903
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:33,200
fundamentalist history, right?
I mean, he he meets Bishop coil,

904
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:40,400
he he meets muster.
He knows ruin all red, so he's

905
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,300
alive during like the short
Creek grades and whatnot.

906
00:55:44,100 --> 00:55:48,100
Yes.
Did he did he ever say anything

907
00:55:48,100 --> 00:55:51,300
to you about the flds going off
the rails?

908
00:55:51,500 --> 00:55:54,600
Do you remember any of that?
Yes.

909
00:55:54,700 --> 00:55:57,600
Oh yes.
Well, there were several

910
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:03,100
experiences one that one was
quite unique and it was this

911
00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:04,900
antenna.
Remember the Centennial group

912
00:56:04,900 --> 00:56:06,700
broke off, right?
Yep.

913
00:56:06,700 --> 00:56:10,900
Okay, so when the Centennial
group broke off, what's

914
00:56:10,900 --> 00:56:15,300
interesting about that was they
had come as many had, many of

915
00:56:15,300 --> 00:56:21,700
the leaders of the groups, came
to my dad, wanting him to be

916
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:24,700
part of their group.
Right.

917
00:56:24,700 --> 00:56:30,200
And, and the group down in
Colorado, city had come to my

918
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,100
father before the Centennial
break up.

919
00:56:33,300 --> 00:56:38,100
And said, we want you to be, you
know, our right-hand man or one

920
00:56:38,100 --> 00:56:41,300
of the guys there and you know,
will give you this money and

921
00:56:41,300 --> 00:56:43,900
we'll do this.
They had quite an enticing, you

922
00:56:43,900 --> 00:56:48,700
know, program, and my dad said,
you know, some of those guys

923
00:56:48,700 --> 00:56:52,900
down there, they can get pretty
radical stories have been at

924
00:56:52,900 --> 00:56:55,000
some Um people have been buried
in the desert.

925
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,600
In other words they've taken
them out that said I was a

926
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:03,100
little nervous of all that and I
so I had to word everything just

927
00:57:03,100 --> 00:57:08,700
perfect and you know, all this
and he said and so dad, he says.

928
00:57:08,700 --> 00:57:11,800
Now why would I go to just your
group?

929
00:57:13,900 --> 00:57:16,600
Well, we hold all the keys, you
know, we're the only ones, the

930
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,100
hold all the keys.
And I kind of looked at him

931
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:23,900
funny and he goes, well, I don't
believe that and here's a

932
00:57:23,908 --> 00:57:28,200
revelation and he pulled out.
I think it was the 82 Revelation

933
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:34,400
or one of those, where he goes
to the Lord and says, you know,

934
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:39,000
who holds all these keys.
And the Lord says, all of you,

935
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:43,200
hold these all 12 of you, hold
these keys in common.

936
00:57:43,700 --> 00:57:49,100
However, there's one who is a
spokesman And so Dad said, well,

937
00:57:49,100 --> 00:57:53,700
there might be a spokesman there
but all of its kind of a spread

938
00:57:53,700 --> 00:57:55,800
out thing.
It's not like just the one and

939
00:57:55,800 --> 00:58:01,300
only and that kind of made him a
little upset and so they left

940
00:58:01,300 --> 00:58:04,400
because they didn't really know
much about scripture and thing.

941
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,900
And so then they went down and
my dad thought.

942
00:58:07,900 --> 00:58:09,300
Hmm.
I haven't heard from him.

943
00:58:09,300 --> 00:58:12,800
I wonder if they're going to
come get me or how that went.

944
00:58:13,300 --> 00:58:19,500
And so so they went down or
Called one of his buddies down

945
00:58:19,500 --> 00:58:21,000
there.
He called him.

946
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:24,500
One of his spies and he so he
called him.

947
00:58:24,500 --> 00:58:27,700
And he says so what all happened
down there with all this?

948
00:58:27,700 --> 00:58:29,800
Haven't heard anything, I don't
know, no good.

949
00:58:29,900 --> 00:58:32,200
Oh my gosh.
Was you the one that brought up

950
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,200
that Revelation and my dad said
sure.

951
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:39,800
And so he said the leader the
next day in church because that

952
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,500
was on a Saturday, my dad talked
to him about that and then next

953
00:58:43,500 --> 00:58:49,300
Sunday he got up in church and
said Well, this was I think of

954
00:58:49,300 --> 00:58:55,000
John Tater good mood who was it.
Anyway, John Tater got this

955
00:58:55,000 --> 00:59:00,300
Revelation and and right here
where John Taylor's getting

956
00:59:00,300 --> 00:59:02,800
this, it's all true.
But then when he gets to this

957
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:08,700
part about you know where
they're all uncommon and there's

958
00:59:08,700 --> 00:59:13,600
not just one Prophet, the holes,
all the keys and does everything

959
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:18,200
that was the devil took over
that revelation Part of the

960
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:22,400
Revelation was from God and part
of the Revelation was from the

961
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,500
Devil.
And that man said that half of

962
00:59:26,508 --> 00:59:29,500
the people in that congregation,
right?

963
00:59:29,500 --> 00:59:33,300
Then actually stood up and
walked out of the meeting.

964
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:37,000
Wow.
And that's what started the

965
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:41,800
Centennial group.
Really, that's where they said

966
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,500
we're done.
This is it?

967
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:47,300
That's just final if he's saying
that that's just bull crap,

968
00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:50,300
we're finished, we're out here
and they left and that was the

969
00:59:50,300 --> 00:59:53,600
break off and I met a lady.
She's now passed away.

970
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:58,300
Was it Don thakur?
Yeah, Donna Macker did actually

971
00:59:58,300 --> 01:00:02,700
told me she was in a meeting and
heard that happen, and I've

972
01:00:02,700 --> 01:00:05,200
talked to several other people
and they say, oh yeah, we

973
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:08,200
remembered that, we remember
that whole meeting very crystal,

974
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:10,700
clear.
So here, It did say that part of

975
01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:16,000
it was for God, part of was,
from the devil and and your dad

976
01:00:16,300 --> 01:00:21,200
by bringing that Revelation up.
Really was the Catalyst for the

977
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,200
Centennial Park group to break
off and start doing their own

978
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,100
thing.
Yeah, that was definitely the

979
01:00:28,100 --> 01:00:30,100
straw that broke the camel's
back.

980
01:00:30,500 --> 01:00:32,800
It was like, that's just too
much.

981
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:34,800
We've had it.
I think they were kind of

982
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,900
planning to get up and get out
of there at some point anyway.

983
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:40,600
Got you.
But that was just kind of the

984
01:00:40,607 --> 01:00:43,500
final straw there and they were
like, that's it.

985
01:00:43,500 --> 01:00:45,500
We're done.
That's interesting.

986
01:00:45,900 --> 01:00:47,800
So that brings me to another
question.

987
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:51,800
How did your dad view claims on
priesthood?

988
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:53,600
Authority and priesthood
lineage?

989
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,800
Right?
Because you got several lines

990
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,500
out there so to speak, you got a
line that comes through the LDS

991
01:00:59,500 --> 01:01:02,800
church, you got a line that, you
know, goes through muster and

992
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,100
all red.
Then you have a line that comes

993
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,600
and let me back up that that
muster all red line goes back.

994
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,800
The woolies in the end, the 8
hour meeting with John Taylor,

995
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,200
and then you have the libero
nights, they have line.

996
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,900
How did your dad do you?
Those was there a line of

997
01:01:17,900 --> 01:01:20,400
priesthood Authority where he
questioned it all?

998
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,100
Or was he pretty much like yeah,
they're all kind of valid.

999
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,400
Well, I think he felt that those
priesthood lines were pretty

1000
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:33,200
valid all the way through.
However, dad was one of the ones

1001
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:37,200
that brought up the actual
change in priesthood.

1002
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:41,500
Ordination remember the time,
you know, I twenties or whatever

1003
01:01:41,500 --> 01:01:44,800
dad kind of found that out and
got some history on that because

1004
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:48,500
that was told to him by Joseph
Fielding Smith judge.

1005
01:01:48,500 --> 01:01:52,600
Joseph Joseph, let me stop you
there real quick because this is

1006
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:54,000
something I think it's worth
diving.

1007
01:01:54,100 --> 01:01:57,000
Into I know what you're talking
about but why don't you explain

1008
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,800
exactly what you mean by
changing ordination?

1009
01:02:00,300 --> 01:02:05,000
Okay, so there was a point where
one one time, they did not

1010
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:09,600
ordained people to the
priesthood, they just call them

1011
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,300
to a column.
You are a teacher, you are a

1012
01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:14,900
priest, you are this.
So they never laid their hands

1013
01:02:14,900 --> 01:02:16,800
on them and gave them
priesthood.

1014
01:02:17,600 --> 01:02:21,700
And so how dad kind of found out
a little bit of that was because

1015
01:02:21,700 --> 01:02:23,900
he was talking to Joseph
Fielding Smith.

1016
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:29,700
With, and he brought this up and
Joseph Fielding said, yeah.

1017
01:02:29,700 --> 01:02:32,500
I caught on to that and
severally the other already

1018
01:02:32,500 --> 01:02:34,700
brother and did.
And we've been trying to correct

1019
01:02:34,700 --> 01:02:38,100
that.
And so what they did to try and

1020
01:02:38,100 --> 01:02:41,900
correct that was they went into
all the priesthood meetings and

1021
01:02:41,900 --> 01:02:46,500
they said we're going to teach
everybody here how to ordain

1022
01:02:46,500 --> 01:02:50,200
somebody to the priesthood.
And so we're going to come in

1023
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:54,800
and we're going to sit down and
we're going to confirm And we're

1024
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,900
going to practice that and make
sure that that's done correctly.

1025
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:06,700
And so he comes along and he
says that that they got in and

1026
01:03:06,700 --> 01:03:10,500
they sat down and they had this
priesthood holder who they knew

1027
01:03:10,500 --> 01:03:15,100
actually had valid priesthood.
And since he had valid priest,

1028
01:03:15,100 --> 01:03:19,300
use an old man and he knew what
was going on, he would come in

1029
01:03:19,300 --> 01:03:24,300
and actually, or ordained them
to the priesthood and Get it

1030
01:03:24,300 --> 01:03:26,200
done.
And so that's how that whole

1031
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:30,800
thing started to happen now.
But, they were conferring the

1032
01:03:30,800 --> 01:03:32,900
priesthood.
They were giving them free stood

1033
01:03:32,900 --> 01:03:38,000
rather than just calling them to
an office, right?

1034
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:41,300
You know, so so by the time
we're done, the old man's

1035
01:03:41,300 --> 01:03:43,800
teaching them and then ok, now
that I've conferred the

1036
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:47,400
priesthood on you, now you
practiced on this guy and then

1037
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,300
after he's done, he's going to
practice on this guy and he's

1038
01:03:50,300 --> 01:03:53,000
going to practice on them.
So they tried to correct that

1039
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:56,500
the best that they could.
And that's in this brings to

1040
01:03:56,500 --> 01:04:01,500
prophesy of what John Taylor
said because he said many people

1041
01:04:01,500 --> 01:04:06,900
in the last days would think
that they help priesthood and

1042
01:04:06,900 --> 01:04:12,100
did not and would not, right?
And it's my from, from what I've

1043
01:04:12,100 --> 01:04:14,500
read is that they were just
basically, like you were saying

1044
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:16,800
they were, or gaining straight
to an office.

1045
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:18,600
They weren't conferring the
priesthood.

1046
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:23,000
And so, what, what what you had
is, you had essentially, I

1047
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:26,300
believe it was Don't quote me,
I'll have to go back and look at

1048
01:04:26,308 --> 01:04:29,900
my sources Bible.
Want to say it was from like 27.

1049
01:04:29,900 --> 01:04:34,700
253 is they weren't, they
weren't conferring the

1050
01:04:34,700 --> 01:04:36,300
priesthood.
They were just ordaining to an

1051
01:04:36,300 --> 01:04:39,200
office and I know that there
were some steps where they tried

1052
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,400
to correct it.
But from, from everything I saw

1053
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:44,800
and your you, or your dad could
probably speak to this better

1054
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:48,600
than I could.
It's my understanding that there

1055
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:50,500
was just no way to clean it all
up.

1056
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:54,400
Correct.
Create that there.

1057
01:04:54,400 --> 01:05:00,200
There's most likely at least a
good chunk of the LDS church

1058
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:05,400
whose you know, you might have
Temple workers today in the LDS

1059
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,300
temples that don't have
priesthood, proper priesthood,

1060
01:05:08,300 --> 01:05:10,900
authority to be officiating in
those ordinances or any

1061
01:05:10,900 --> 01:05:13,700
ordinances below that really
right.

1062
01:05:13,700 --> 01:05:16,500
That's why they brought in some
of the old men that got the

1063
01:05:16,500 --> 01:05:21,500
priesthood way back in the day
and had them start a conferring

1064
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:23,500
But yeah.
How would you get?

1065
01:05:23,500 --> 01:05:27,300
I mean, what if, you know a guy
was inactive during that time

1066
01:05:27,300 --> 01:05:30,500
when they were conferring all
that and it only happened for a

1067
01:05:30,500 --> 01:05:33,000
month to, you know, and so
there, you know.

1068
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:35,100
Did they really get?
Everybody did it?

1069
01:05:35,100 --> 01:05:38,600
Yeah, very much questionable
Authority.

1070
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:40,500
And there's several priesthood
lines.

1071
01:05:40,500 --> 01:05:44,200
I mean, the LeBaron line, you
know, Dad had believed the

1072
01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:46,800
LeBaron line was a legit.
You know, it came through

1073
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:52,600
Joseph, through John Johnson and
came down through others and Of

1074
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:56,400
course, she felt stronger
concerning the muster line and,

1075
01:05:56,900 --> 01:06:01,100
and, and where he ruined had
been called around the same

1076
01:06:01,100 --> 01:06:03,400
time.
He definitely felt that it came

1077
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,900
through the priesthood windage
and so, yeah.

1078
01:06:07,300 --> 01:06:09,900
And that did preach about
another priesthood that wasn't a

1079
01:06:09,908 --> 01:06:13,800
conferral priesthood.
It was definitely a lineage

1080
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:19,300
priesthood that just came
because of your lineage and and

1081
01:06:19,300 --> 01:06:24,300
proof of that would be in the
The in Doctrine covenants 20

1082
01:06:24,300 --> 01:06:28,200
where it talks about if you're
if you want to be a bishop and

1083
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:31,900
you come through this you know,
erinite lying that you can come

1084
01:06:31,900 --> 01:06:35,100
and say you show your lineage.
And you say, I want to be a

1085
01:06:35,107 --> 01:06:38,000
bishop, you could be a bishop,
right?

1086
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:41,100
Because you would be part of the
levitical order categorical.

1087
01:06:41,100 --> 01:06:42,300
Yes.
Okay.

1088
01:06:42,700 --> 01:06:45,100
All right.
So but by and large, he didn't

1089
01:06:45,100 --> 01:06:48,100
have too many issues with
someone saying well I think my

1090
01:06:48,100 --> 01:06:51,900
line is valid he would more than
likely say yeah probably I mean

1091
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:53,800
If I'm understanding you
correctly.

1092
01:06:54,500 --> 01:06:59,500
Yes, and he would always tell
people go and ask the Lord if

1093
01:06:59,500 --> 01:07:02,400
you still hold priesthood
because there's still another

1094
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:05,800
way you can lose priesthood, you
know, certain sins, sort of

1095
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,800
things.
Of course, this is the question

1096
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:15,500
with a lot of he would talk
about some of the forcing and

1097
01:07:15,500 --> 01:07:19,200
some of the things that happened
in because, you know, in section

1098
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:23,800
121 at talks about if a man How
is it forces?

1099
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:28,800
A man, another man or right by
their very nature.

1100
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:32,500
Every man, you know, if they
start exhorting, power authority

1101
01:07:32,500 --> 01:07:34,900
over another man, they can lose
priesthood.

1102
01:07:34,900 --> 01:07:37,100
That's aiming to the priesthood
that man.

1103
01:07:37,300 --> 01:07:39,600
Sorry, I can't quote that.
No, you're good.

1104
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:44,000
Yeah, the priest, It could only
be, you know, wielded on

1105
01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:50,000
principles of righteousness.
So it may be conferred on, but,

1106
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,800
you know, it may lose it.
And so, People, that's another

1107
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:59,100
thing you could get priesthood
reconfirmed on you and that's

1108
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,600
and that's another ordinance and
Wilfred woodruff's Journal.

1109
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:07,600
He said that, every ordinance
can be redone, re-baptism

1110
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:10,800
remarriage, we conferral, a
priesthood.

1111
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,200
You can, you can do them all
over again.

1112
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:15,900
If you don't feel that it's
valid, did they feel that there

1113
01:08:15,900 --> 01:08:18,300
could be an issue or there could
be something else?

1114
01:08:18,700 --> 01:08:22,899
And, and in fact, the Catholic
Church, there's just a remnant

1115
01:08:22,899 --> 01:08:26,800
of their thing where they
actually would go and they'd go

1116
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:31,300
and get remarried, you know,
taking their vows again and it

1117
01:08:31,300 --> 01:08:35,300
just basically a remarriage, you
know, so sometimes remarriage is

1118
01:08:35,300 --> 01:08:37,800
needed to be done, you know, or
felt that they needed to be

1119
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:42,500
done.
So right so at what point do you

1120
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,000
start diving into your father's
work with him?

1121
01:08:45,100 --> 01:08:47,500
Was there a moment at which he
said, Kevin, I need your help.

1122
01:08:47,500 --> 01:08:53,800
Would you come give me a hand?
So I grew up in the LDS church.

1123
01:08:54,399 --> 01:08:58,300
My mother pretty much brainwash
me against all fundamentalism.

1124
01:08:58,300 --> 01:09:04,300
I hated polygamy more than any
other human being on Earth from

1125
01:09:04,300 --> 01:09:09,100
what I can gather.
And then my moved up here, I had

1126
01:09:09,100 --> 01:09:13,300
an inspiration to move up here
and go to BYU and then I got to

1127
01:09:13,300 --> 01:09:16,600
BYU and then everything went to
mass and so I went to you bu and

1128
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:18,899
that's where I met my first wife
Bev.

1129
01:09:19,500 --> 01:09:24,200
That day.
And and so then I've kind of

1130
01:09:24,207 --> 01:09:26,700
Converse with my dad.
I got to know him again.

1131
01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,899
My parents separated, when I was
about 14.

1132
01:09:30,300 --> 01:09:33,899
So it's been about 10 years.
I finally get back and meet my

1133
01:09:33,899 --> 01:09:36,899
dad again, and we were very much
alike.

1134
01:09:36,899 --> 01:09:41,200
We like same type of things.
We, you know, we just kind of

1135
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:44,000
connect it all the way through.
I have brothers that were

1136
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:45,899
jealous.
All dad always did things with

1137
01:09:45,899 --> 01:09:48,100
you and I said, is that how it
went?

1138
01:09:48,100 --> 01:09:51,899
Or did I do things?
Because of what I liked you know

1139
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:59,300
and so you know there we had a
lot in common and so anyways, 25

1140
01:09:59,300 --> 01:10:04,600
years old and just barely
getting to know my father again

1141
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:07,600
and having a blast, we're just
learning stuff.

1142
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:12,000
And I reading researching and
questions that I had asked all

1143
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:14,900
through people and everything,
my dad was answering those

1144
01:10:14,900 --> 01:10:18,300
questions.
But just a little bit here and

1145
01:10:18,300 --> 01:10:24,800
there, but the big one was my
dad had a heart attack and he

1146
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:29,000
went to the University of Utah
and he had one vein that fed is

1147
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:33,700
hard and that vein had closed up
and so they were trying to do

1148
01:10:33,700 --> 01:10:36,300
some new things.
They tried some some

1149
01:10:37,100 --> 01:10:40,600
angioplasty, which I was a
paramedic, you know, down in

1150
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:43,000
Tucson, I went down those things
hardly ever work.

1151
01:10:43,700 --> 01:10:46,700
But I did know that down near
Tucson Tucson.

1152
01:10:46,700 --> 01:10:49,800
Medical Center have been putting
these new things called stents

1153
01:10:50,700 --> 01:10:53,300
and I talked to them about it
and they said, well, we can't

1154
01:10:53,300 --> 01:10:56,600
get him down there and I said,
all driving well, he needs to

1155
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:58,700
have medical assistance has, I'm
a paramedic.

1156
01:10:58,700 --> 01:11:00,700
What more do you need?
I mean, you know, I'll take

1157
01:11:00,700 --> 01:11:02,400
oxygen tanks.
All do this.

1158
01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:04,700
I'll, you know, I can
resuscitate him.

1159
01:11:04,700 --> 01:11:07,300
I've done this all really, okay,
let's do that.

1160
01:11:07,300 --> 01:11:13,100
And so so they they actually
paid for this medical treatment.

1161
01:11:13,300 --> 01:11:18,300
Down in Phoenix to be done.
So it was experimental on my dad

1162
01:11:18,300 --> 01:11:22,200
because that was they could
prove because just one vein, and

1163
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:24,700
if it did work or didn't work,
that would, you know, there's

1164
01:11:24,700 --> 01:11:27,100
only one way in and out.
So it's not like two or three

1165
01:11:27,100 --> 01:11:31,100
other veins, they have to cover
it and so they did that and it

1166
01:11:31,100 --> 01:11:35,600
worked very good.
And then on the way down, I'm

1167
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,100
asking my dad.
Every question, there was, I

1168
01:11:39,108 --> 01:11:42,700
mean, I just nailed him on all
the stuff for my mission and

1169
01:11:42,700 --> 01:11:46,000
everything.
And he answers them all and

1170
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:51,500
brings them all through and then
we get there and then I asking

1171
01:11:51,700 --> 01:11:54,700
just before he goes in for the
operation do I have any other

1172
01:11:54,700 --> 01:11:58,400
brothers and sisters?
I don't know about And he says,

1173
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:01,300
yes, you do.
And I'm like, how can we had

1174
01:12:01,300 --> 01:12:02,900
tummy?
You never asked.

1175
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:08,500
Thanks, you know?
So so find out about two sisters

1176
01:12:08,500 --> 01:12:12,500
and a brother half, brothers,
and sister and so we go in.

1177
01:12:12,500 --> 01:12:14,700
He goes in the operation is
successful.

1178
01:12:14,700 --> 01:12:20,200
We go back to Pima where I'm
from and my mom's talking to me.

1179
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,900
And I am a converted
fundamentalist in one day.

1180
01:12:24,900 --> 01:12:29,600
It wasn't true.
I can prove everything now, I'm,

1181
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:33,800
you know, Mom was mad at her and
Hopscotch because now I'm on

1182
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,800
Dad's side, you know?
And so anyway, and it was just

1183
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,600
kind of heartbroken.
But I said, Mom, it's true.

1184
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:44,700
Now I'm certain that this and
this what you say is correct now

1185
01:12:44,700 --> 01:12:47,100
ye are also understand my
mother.

1186
01:12:47,900 --> 01:12:52,700
My mother was very spiritual and
very into things and he took my

1187
01:12:52,700 --> 01:12:56,600
mom to rule on and and met all
these people and trying to you

1188
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:59,700
know, kind of talker and
fundamentalist you know, way or

1189
01:12:59,700 --> 01:13:01,700
blue.
Give me or whatever and she

1190
01:13:01,700 --> 01:13:05,400
didn't really have any problems
for say with polygamy, as much

1191
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:10,000
as her and hand clashed.
And so the second wife didn't

1192
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:11,400
they didn't see eye-to-eye, you
know?

1193
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:15,700
And so there were some issues
there and and so but she did

1194
01:13:15,900 --> 01:13:19,500
kind of get to hate polygamy and
all this even though her her

1195
01:13:19,500 --> 01:13:23,600
grandfather was a stake
president, the first state

1196
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:26,500
president Arizona.
And he had to live plural

1197
01:13:26,500 --> 01:13:28,500
marriage in order to be a stake
president.

1198
01:13:28,500 --> 01:13:32,800
And so he They had problems in
that relationship.

1199
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:36,800
There were some problems that's
kind of brought down through the

1200
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:40,400
family of how he may not have
treated him equally or there may

1201
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:45,700
have been some issues.
And so anyway so my mom she goes

1202
01:13:45,700 --> 01:13:50,300
and prays and ask should I join
the fundamentalist movement or

1203
01:13:50,300 --> 01:13:54,100
should I stay in the church?
And she gets a very powerful

1204
01:13:54,100 --> 01:13:57,800
stay in the church and so she
stays in the church.

1205
01:13:58,000 --> 01:13:59,700
She raises all those kids in the
church.

1206
01:13:59,700 --> 01:14:05,000
We All go on missions.
Fantastic stories of conversion

1207
01:14:05,700 --> 01:14:11,500
by us children, even myself
almost converting king of India,

1208
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:14,000
you know?
And that because of that

1209
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:19,100
experience, allowing people to
go because of his influence, he

1210
01:14:19,100 --> 01:14:22,900
allowed missionaries in.
And so there's a lot of stuff

1211
01:14:22,900 --> 01:14:26,800
that wouldn't have happened.
Had we not been in the church.

1212
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,700
We needed to be there.
So, that's why I say this is

1213
01:14:29,700 --> 01:14:33,200
such Individual thing, you have
to ask, God, is this what you

1214
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,200
need to do?
I know lots of fundamentalist

1215
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:39,100
people one.
He'd actually, you know, pretty

1216
01:14:39,100 --> 01:14:41,300
much knows more about
fundamentalism me.

1217
01:14:41,300 --> 01:14:46,100
You and maybe not even as much
as my dad, but close to it and

1218
01:14:46,500 --> 01:14:51,600
he was, he had an angel come to
him and tell him to go back into

1219
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,100
church.
And he goes, I'm not going back

1220
01:14:54,100 --> 01:14:57,000
in there and I restore our, you
know, and he's mad, you know,

1221
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:01,000
because Wade Church treats, some
of us and and And the angel

1222
01:15:01,000 --> 01:15:04,000
says, now you need to go back
and so you need to teach my

1223
01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:06,400
people.
You need to teach these people

1224
01:15:07,100 --> 01:15:12,200
so he goes back into church and
and he there's that one Temple

1225
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,900
recommend interview question
about you know fundamentalist

1226
01:15:15,900 --> 01:15:20,300
ties or people that are you know
try to her house worded and he

1227
01:15:20,300 --> 01:15:23,000
said well I'm not answering that
stupid question.

1228
01:15:23,300 --> 01:15:26,600
You know, and that interview and
and the Lord says, I'll take

1229
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:28,100
care of that.
Don't worry about that.

1230
01:15:28,100 --> 01:15:31,200
And he said, so he told me one
time, he said, Every time it

1231
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,300
gets to that question.
Knock on the door phone call

1232
01:15:34,300 --> 01:15:37,500
comes something happens and then
the guy comes back and looks at

1233
01:15:37,508 --> 01:15:40,800
he goes, okay, we're all done.
So always gets skip that

1234
01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:44,200
question.
That's awesome.

1235
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:49,900
So you're able to spend that
that time with your dad on the

1236
01:15:49,900 --> 01:15:53,600
way to Arizona where it sounds
like your dad.

1237
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,900
Just really answers every
question.

1238
01:15:56,900 --> 01:15:59,900
You got right?
And and by the end of that trip,

1239
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:02,400
rip your a fundamentalist,
right?

1240
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:05,700
You're you're like, okay, now I
see you.

1241
01:16:05,700 --> 01:16:08,100
You never had light and
knowledge passed on to you.

1242
01:16:08,500 --> 01:16:11,400
So when you guys get back to
Utah, do you immediately go to

1243
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:14,300
work with your dad and helping
him do his, his stuff?

1244
01:16:15,300 --> 01:16:18,800
Yeah, we started kind of working
together and do things at that

1245
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:21,500
time.
And I said, Gee dad, what if

1246
01:16:21,500 --> 01:16:25,300
they throw me out and he says,
Then it happens, but it'll,

1247
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:29,100
it'll come in the Lord's time.
I mean my dad knew all this

1248
01:16:29,100 --> 01:16:32,800
fundamentalist stuff and he
says, you know, I had five kids.

1249
01:16:33,300 --> 01:16:38,800
I knew all this before I, you
know, went on a mission and look

1250
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:41,700
at all the good that I did and
all the people I influenced in

1251
01:16:41,700 --> 01:16:44,500
the church and I wrote all the
books and I did all these

1252
01:16:44,500 --> 01:16:46,700
things.
And and he said, and then

1253
01:16:46,700 --> 01:16:49,200
finally, it's just like the
Lord's timing was okay.

1254
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:53,000
It's Now's the Time and he said,
a got excommunicated, he went

1255
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:55,600
home Home and he cried because
the church was everything to my

1256
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:59,600
father and he's upset and the
Lord's kind of like just

1257
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:03,000
comforting and he says you know,
you have other work to do and

1258
01:17:03,000 --> 01:17:06,700
then my dad looked up on a shelf
and there was a manuscript that

1259
01:17:06,700 --> 01:17:11,200
he had there on Adam God.
And if he'd been in the church,

1260
01:17:11,200 --> 01:17:14,400
he'd never been able to write
that and had been sitting here

1261
01:17:14,400 --> 01:17:16,400
forever.
So he pulls that down off the

1262
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,500
shelf and he starts writing the
atom God Doctrine book.

1263
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:21,900
Wow.
So he says so there's your

1264
01:17:21,900 --> 01:17:26,900
timing and so yeah, I stayed in
the church for many many years

1265
01:17:26,900 --> 01:17:30,600
until recently.
And how long did you work with

1266
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:32,200
your dad before he passed?
Kevin.

1267
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:37,000
So, we were working together,
doing books doing things.

1268
01:17:37,500 --> 01:17:49,000
He died in 2002 and it was 83,
85, 87, 89 91.

1269
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:56,200
So it was 92 about 92 93, so it
was close to about 10 years.

1270
01:17:57,700 --> 01:18:00,400
Yeah.
What are some what are some

1271
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:04,000
things that surprise you worked
with your dad as you saw him

1272
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:06,900
work, as you saw him, do what it
is?

1273
01:18:06,900 --> 01:18:10,300
He did, what were some of the
things that surprised you about

1274
01:18:10,300 --> 01:18:16,800
the whole process?
I think the inspiration was

1275
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:19,800
number one.
That would be working on a

1276
01:18:19,808 --> 01:18:24,500
project and people would just
because I'm writing a book on

1277
01:18:24,700 --> 01:18:28,100
this and this and people just
walk in the door and say, here

1278
01:18:28,100 --> 01:18:30,300
Ogden, I have this book.
I don't know why I was told to

1279
01:18:30,300 --> 01:18:34,000
bring you this book in our, you
know, hey, I know where you can

1280
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,600
find that and, you know, it's
George's friend, who knew Benny,

1281
01:18:37,600 --> 01:18:40,600
who knew this, who knew that,
that, you know, and this stuff

1282
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:45,300
would just come in waves and
and, and even one time, I went

1283
01:18:45,300 --> 01:18:51,300
up to his office on 72nd, South
and And Murray area there, and I

1284
01:18:51,300 --> 01:18:54,300
kind of hung out we were late
and so I didn't want to drive an

1285
01:18:54,300 --> 01:18:56,700
hour home.
So he's a 0w, just pump up this

1286
01:18:56,700 --> 01:18:58,600
air mattress.
You can just sleep on the floor

1287
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:02,700
of my office floor and he slept
on a couch or sofa and there is

1288
01:19:02,700 --> 01:19:08,800
printing area and so and so he
says don't be, don't be alarmed

1289
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:12,600
if I wake up and come in and
type on my computer because you

1290
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:14,500
know, sometimes the middle of
night, I get some real

1291
01:19:14,500 --> 01:19:16,500
inspiration.
I want to come in and write it

1292
01:19:16,500 --> 01:19:21,100
down, you know?
And I said, okay and so so in

1293
01:19:21,108 --> 01:19:23,700
the middle of the night he comes
in kind of stumbles on me and

1294
01:19:23,700 --> 01:19:26,600
wakes me up a little bit.
And I go back to sleep and he's

1295
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:30,300
sitting there typing and he gets
all done the next morning.

1296
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:33,200
I wake him up and I says, well,
what did you write last night?

1297
01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:36,700
And he goes, I didn't wake up.
When I go.

1298
01:19:36,700 --> 01:19:38,100
Yes, you did.
You woke up?

1299
01:19:38,100 --> 01:19:39,700
You came instant.
No, I didn't.

1300
01:19:39,700 --> 01:19:41,500
I didn't get no.
No, you did.

1301
01:19:41,500 --> 01:19:43,700
I swear.
You came in and all you must be

1302
01:19:43,700 --> 01:19:45,000
dreaming.
You're a dreamer.

1303
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:47,300
You dream all the time.
Okay, let's go look.

1304
01:19:47,300 --> 01:19:51,200
And so we got on this It opened
it up and here's this whole

1305
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:54,900
discourse.
And when I read my Dad read it,

1306
01:19:54,900 --> 01:20:00,300
this is super fast reader read
this and he goes, oh my gosh,

1307
01:20:00,300 --> 01:20:03,800
that's about one of the best
discourses I've ever done.

1308
01:20:04,900 --> 01:20:07,900
And he looks at it and he goes
that definitely came by the

1309
01:20:07,900 --> 01:20:09,800
lord.
I can't remember it.

1310
01:20:12,200 --> 01:20:15,000
And it sounds like it was a
pretty rare, pretty frequent

1311
01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:18,200
occurrence that that kind of
inspiration would happen for

1312
01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:21,000
him, right?
He had a lot of that, you know,

1313
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:24,400
when he wrote his Sears and Seer
Stones book, it's kind of an

1314
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:29,400
interesting story.
He went up, he went up to a

1315
01:20:29,407 --> 01:20:32,000
bank.
I think it was Zions Bank just

1316
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:35,300
south of the temple there and
there was somebody that had a

1317
01:20:35,308 --> 01:20:39,600
Seer Stone and so he wanted to
take a picture of the Seer Stone

1318
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:42,300
because he was compiling.
Book on Seer stones.

1319
01:20:42,700 --> 01:20:49,700
And so he goes in and he and he
talks to the banker and the

1320
01:20:49,700 --> 01:20:52,700
banker says will come on in and
they got this guy and the banker

1321
01:20:52,700 --> 01:20:55,300
goes, you know, there's a bunch
of people to have Seer Stones

1322
01:20:55,300 --> 01:20:58,200
here.
And they look at each other and

1323
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:00,400
they said really.
And he goes, yeah, let me call

1324
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:01,900
them.
Maybe they'd like to see your

1325
01:21:01,900 --> 01:21:05,200
Seer stone or she has serious
Stoner, you know, maybe

1326
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:07,900
everybody like to just share.
So he got on the phone and

1327
01:21:07,900 --> 01:21:12,700
called all these people and they
all showed up, you know pulsifer

1328
01:21:12,700 --> 01:21:17,100
and this and you know there's
probably 10 SEER stones in there

1329
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:18,800
and so they are all taking
pictures.

1330
01:21:18,800 --> 01:21:21,700
My dad took pictures of him
because he was professional and

1331
01:21:21,900 --> 01:21:24,800
took all these beautiful
pictures and the rushed in stone

1332
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:28,400
was there and others and he All
done and everybody's all excited

1333
01:21:28,400 --> 01:21:31,700
about it and and that's the
thank you very much and they

1334
01:21:31,700 --> 01:21:35,600
were glad to see each other's.
And that had a steer stone that

1335
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:38,900
he brought with him.
Which was Joseph, Smith, Seer

1336
01:21:38,900 --> 01:21:42,900
Stone, the Belcher Stone, one
with the hole in it, right then.

1337
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:48,100
And that was loaned to him by
his dream, mind buddy, who was

1338
01:21:48,400 --> 01:21:49,600
up at the dream?
Mine?

1339
01:21:49,700 --> 01:21:52,200
At the same time, he was in
wrote a book on the dream, my

1340
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:56,000
Norman Pierce, and that came
through the Pierce family.

1341
01:21:56,700 --> 01:21:59,900
Norman actually promised it to
my dad when he died and that

1342
01:21:59,900 --> 01:22:02,300
didn't happen.
But but anyway, so he takes

1343
01:22:02,300 --> 01:22:06,700
these these stones and gets done
with the pictures and then he's

1344
01:22:06,700 --> 01:22:09,900
heading up to the first
presence, he's office because he

1345
01:22:09,900 --> 01:22:12,000
wants to talk to Joseph Fielding
Smith.

1346
01:22:12,900 --> 01:22:15,400
And he goes up and he tells
Joseph Fielding I'm writing a

1347
01:22:15,400 --> 01:22:18,400
book on Seer stones and he was
all that's great, that's good.

1348
01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:23,100
And he says so I want to take a
picture of the chocolates tone.

1349
01:22:23,100 --> 01:22:26,600
The chocolate chips, do, make
all right, and he says, oh,

1350
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:29,500
that'd be great.
Yeah, let's let's grab that.

1351
01:22:29,500 --> 01:22:31,200
It's right here, and he went
back and got it.

1352
01:22:31,300 --> 01:22:34,800
Set it down and Dad set up his
photography stuff, and he's

1353
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:39,000
already take this picture this
and and he's all ready to snap

1354
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:44,200
the picture and in walks.
Joseph fielding's wife.

1355
01:22:44,700 --> 01:22:47,900
This is the second wife and
she's pretty pretty brutal, you

1356
01:22:47,900 --> 01:22:50,100
know?
And she's like kind of bossing

1357
01:22:50,100 --> 01:22:53,100
him around and everything and he
says she says well what's Ogden

1358
01:22:53,100 --> 01:22:54,800
doing well he's taking a
picture.

1359
01:22:54,900 --> 01:22:58,100
Well I think that Seer stones to
Sacred, we shouldn't take

1360
01:22:58,100 --> 01:23:01,400
pictures of seer stones and he
goes why not?

1361
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:03,100
Well because it's too sacred
need.

1362
01:23:03,100 --> 01:23:06,000
She went on and on and on and
finally looks at my dad because

1363
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:09,600
I well maybe we better not Ogden
and kind of lead society would

1364
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:11,400
get it later type thing or
whatever.

1365
01:23:11,900 --> 01:23:15,200
Anyway and that's is okay.
So we folds up all this

1366
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:19,200
photography, stuff, gets all put
away and then he the joke in the

1367
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:23,600
family is that that came down
the elevator and he walks

1368
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:26,000
outside of the church office
building and looks up.

1369
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:29,400
And he goes, hey, who's running
this show?

1370
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:38,800
Anyway, wife anyway, so it was
kind of funny but he, so that's

1371
01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:41,700
kind of how it and he said, he
told me, he said later, I

1372
01:23:41,900 --> 01:23:45,400
Thought about it.
And if I had tried and planned

1373
01:23:45,500 --> 01:23:49,400
to get everybody together and
get those pictures and do all

1374
01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:52,300
this, he said, I don't think I'd
ever got them all together.

1375
01:23:52,300 --> 01:23:54,900
It's just like, God brought them
together and made it all happen.

1376
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:57,100
Wow.
Wow.

1377
01:23:57,700 --> 01:24:00,200
And it was that way with the
sources, that sounds like two

1378
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:04,000
people out of stores with sort
with sources, like, hey, AB,

1379
01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:05,400
skiers this.
Absolutely.

1380
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:07,700
I watched it happen.
Yeah.

1381
01:24:07,700 --> 01:24:10,100
One time.
I can't remember what book it

1382
01:24:10,100 --> 01:24:11,800
was.
He was a Fundamentalist.

1383
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:14,900
Book and called everybody.
And he couldn't find this book

1384
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:18,700
and it and I, he knew there were
books out there on it, but he

1385
01:24:18,700 --> 01:24:22,300
just couldn't find it and he's
like, oh my heck, I don't know

1386
01:24:22,300 --> 01:24:24,400
what I'm going to do.
I just don't know.

1387
01:24:24,500 --> 01:24:28,200
I can't figure this out and so
he just went in and prayed.

1388
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:30,800
And the next day a guy came in.
And he goes Ogden.

1389
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:36,000
I need a couple of photo copies
of my book so that I can get it

1390
01:24:36,000 --> 01:24:37,600
in my journal.
You know, of all this

1391
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:40,000
information, my
great-grandfather wrote Because

1392
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:41,700
all that's the book I'm looking
for, can I?

1393
01:24:41,900 --> 01:24:45,000
Copy it and goes sure, copy and
copy the book, very my Dad.

1394
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:49,600
Wow.
Wow.

1395
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:54,400
So at what point did you did you
feel like yeah I want to keep

1396
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:59,100
doing this you know I this this
is my new profession because it

1397
01:24:59,100 --> 01:25:04,500
sounds like you were you know an
EMT you talked about working for

1398
01:25:04,500 --> 01:25:06,900
Novell at what point do you
remember thinking?

1399
01:25:07,500 --> 01:25:14,300
I think I have this same calling
I didn't think that at all until

1400
01:25:14,300 --> 01:25:20,100
right before my dad died.
And right before my dad died, I

1401
01:25:20,100 --> 01:25:23,000
wasn't even thinking that, I
figured that it would get

1402
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:25,400
better.
So I wasn't thinking that at all

1403
01:25:25,400 --> 01:25:28,800
for my dad came in and he walks
and he sat down with me and he

1404
01:25:28,800 --> 01:25:33,300
says, I got to tell you story.
So, you remember me talking

1405
01:25:33,300 --> 01:25:37,600
about, in ballon wall?
And I said, yes, I do.

1406
01:25:37,700 --> 01:25:41,800
And I in Berlin Wall had this
huge archive, they called the

1407
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:47,200
one wall records, or whatever
and and he had come on.

1408
01:25:47,300 --> 01:25:50,800
Well I think came from our LDS
background, he's going to come

1409
01:25:50,900 --> 01:25:54,000
put down Brigham Heights and
prove them all wrong and then he

1410
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:58,900
got into the archives and got
converted and so but he wanted

1411
01:25:58,900 --> 01:26:02,500
to preserve the old, the old
information to the old

1412
01:26:02,900 --> 01:26:05,600
principles, you'll doctrines and
the old stories.

1413
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:09,400
So he started writing all these
books and that's what lundwall

1414
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:16,500
did and he's got some beautiful
books and and then when he died

1415
01:26:16,700 --> 01:26:20,400
he basically Died in my mother's
arms almost and then because he

1416
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:23,000
was, you know, we knew him so.
Well, I remember him in our home

1417
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:29,600
a locked and and then when Lund
wall just before he died, he

1418
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:33,000
says Ogden, I'm passing this
work on to you, you're going to

1419
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:36,600
have to continue.
Not just writing your own books,

1420
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:40,900
but also preserving old books
like I did and old information,

1421
01:26:40,900 --> 01:26:44,300
and old records.
And so dad had reprinted a lot

1422
01:26:44,300 --> 01:26:46,300
of journals and a lot of
information.

1423
01:26:46,800 --> 01:26:50,600
And then Then when Dad was
dying, he turned to me and said,

1424
01:26:50,900 --> 01:26:56,600
I'm passing the Baton on to you
and now it's your job to do this

1425
01:26:57,200 --> 01:27:01,400
and I felt the weight of that,
and I felt the opposition to

1426
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:05,500
that all same time.
So, I have been trying to print

1427
01:27:05,500 --> 01:27:08,400
and reprint and also Aspire
other authors.

1428
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:11,000
There are several books, they're
back out on the shelves now,

1429
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:14,400
because I just had the
impression they need to be done.

1430
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:17,100
I brought a man, I got them
inspired.

1431
01:27:17,200 --> 01:27:19,900
I'd got the book done and
finished and got it out.

1432
01:27:19,900 --> 01:27:22,300
What books would those would be
Kevin if you don't mind me.

1433
01:27:22,300 --> 01:27:27,700
Well, just recently, we just did
one called the notes It was a

1434
01:27:27,708 --> 01:27:31,300
fundamentalist gentleman who put
these notes together of all the

1435
01:27:31,300 --> 01:27:35,000
references in the Bible and Book
of Mormon and early references

1436
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:38,500
towards subjects that we'd all
can look up and find.

1437
01:27:38,900 --> 01:27:41,400
And so there's a lot of that
it's in there.

1438
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:45,100
You know, I kind of helped
overhung Gilly auditing with

1439
01:27:45,100 --> 01:27:47,100
books.
You know, there was times he can

1440
01:27:47,100 --> 01:27:51,500
afford, you know, nothing Italy.
And I just, you know said look,

1441
01:27:51,500 --> 01:27:54,200
I'll just print them up, get
them to you, you know, and so we

1442
01:27:54,200 --> 01:27:58,600
did that several times, there
were Were several other books is

1443
01:27:58,600 --> 01:28:02,500
it was kind of goes on and
indeed other like authors ever,

1444
01:28:02,500 --> 01:28:04,500
go to your dad and ask him for
sources.

1445
01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:08,400
Sure.
Yeah, I'll tell you an

1446
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:11,200
interesting one.
This is when I was very young at

1447
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:18,300
dugway and Wayne Crowder, Dwayne
had it written any books at the

1448
01:28:18,300 --> 01:28:23,700
time and he just lost a daughter
and he's writing a book.

1449
01:28:23,700 --> 01:28:29,300
I think it was life Everlasting.
And so he would call our the

1450
01:28:29,300 --> 01:28:33,200
phone at it that way.
And I mean, everybody called up

1451
01:28:33,200 --> 01:28:36,500
in the conky's Scout students.
You know, there were all these

1452
01:28:36,500 --> 01:28:42,500
names, you know, the called and
I'd answer the phone and and so

1453
01:28:42,500 --> 01:28:46,300
this Dwayne Crowther remember
him more than anybody and he

1454
01:28:46,300 --> 01:28:48,500
would say, is your dad there,
and I'd say, yeah, just a minute

1455
01:28:48,500 --> 01:28:51,300
and I'd go in, I'd say Dwayne
crowler's on the phone, he said,

1456
01:28:51,300 --> 01:28:54,000
okay, tell him just a minute
because I'm finishing up this

1457
01:28:54,000 --> 01:28:56,700
print job and I can't really
stop in the middle of You know,

1458
01:28:56,700 --> 01:28:59,900
it's really close to finishing
and if you stop, sometimes the

1459
01:28:59,900 --> 01:29:02,600
ink dries and this happens and
what will blond?

1460
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:05,100
If you get the whole thing
printed and he always did just a

1461
01:29:05,300 --> 01:29:07,700
run of 500 so it wouldn't take
long.

1462
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:11,900
So then I'm on the phone with
Wayne and I'm going well.

1463
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:15,000
Yeah he says he'll be here in
just a minute and he says, well

1464
01:29:15,000 --> 01:29:17,600
Kevin how are you and I go I'm
doing good.

1465
01:29:17,700 --> 01:29:19,900
What are you doing now?
And I'm well I'm making some

1466
01:29:19,900 --> 01:29:22,700
little model rockets and he
wanted to know all about my

1467
01:29:22,700 --> 01:29:26,100
model rockets and what I did
that day and what I was doing

1468
01:29:26,100 --> 01:29:27,700
here, Here.
And you know he's the most

1469
01:29:27,700 --> 01:29:32,000
personable guy I ever met.
So this day I still and I met

1470
01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:35,000
Dwayne since then and I remember
telling him some of the stories

1471
01:29:35,000 --> 01:29:38,600
and he goes I do remember those
conversations because I just

1472
01:29:38,600 --> 01:29:41,800
really wanted to talk to your
dad and and and you were just

1473
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:45,200
this bubbly little kid all
excited about stuff.

1474
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:50,400
And so I still I was and it's
irony because a lot of Duane

1475
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:54,400
Crowder's, bookmaking materials
and other things ended up in my

1476
01:29:54,400 --> 01:29:57,500
lab.
To help with our work.

1477
01:29:58,100 --> 01:30:00,700
It was really ironies.
A lot of it was very interesting

1478
01:30:00,700 --> 01:30:07,600
how that happened, but but
anyway, so Dwayne was one and,

1479
01:30:07,600 --> 01:30:11,000
and he would call and he would
ask Dad, and Dad gave him all

1480
01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:14,800
the references for, like,
prophecy key to the future, he

1481
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:16,600
gave him.
I remember all the references

1482
01:30:16,600 --> 01:30:19,100
and all the stories, and all
this, and all that.

1483
01:30:19,200 --> 01:30:22,500
And so, basically, Duane's books
were created pretty much from

1484
01:30:22,500 --> 01:30:24,900
all my dad's help.
Wow.

1485
01:30:25,500 --> 01:30:27,900
And a my dad was open to that
kind of thing.

1486
01:30:28,300 --> 01:30:33,200
You know, one time a guy I was
looking through some of the

1487
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:39,000
Farms menus and there was one
thing on there, about a guy who

1488
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:44,200
had taken my dad's three nephite
books and plagiarized the whole

1489
01:30:44,200 --> 01:30:46,300
book.
Wow.

1490
01:30:46,400 --> 01:30:52,600
One story out just exactly the
same book is my dad and the one

1491
01:30:52,600 --> 01:30:55,100
story was the to Nephites by The
Dream mind.

1492
01:30:55,300 --> 01:30:59,400
You want that in there and so he
plagiarized this book, got it

1493
01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:03,700
all printed sent it to Deseret
Book and Deseret Book, reprinted

1494
01:31:03,700 --> 01:31:07,700
it under his name and made it,
he made all this money on it and

1495
01:31:07,900 --> 01:31:11,200
and then Farms caught it and
they were, you know, upset with

1496
01:31:11,200 --> 01:31:13,800
them and everything.
And so I've got the article and

1497
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:16,700
I brought it in and I showed my
dad and he looked at it.

1498
01:31:16,708 --> 01:31:19,300
He goes, huh?
Well, that's interesting.

1499
01:31:19,900 --> 01:31:22,600
And I said well aren't you going
to do any thing about it, you

1500
01:31:22,600 --> 01:31:25,100
know, cease and desist or this
or that or whatever.

1501
01:31:25,200 --> 01:31:29,500
And he was, why would I do that?
They're getting the word out?

1502
01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:35,800
So this and and and that's the
thing, you could always get from

1503
01:31:35,900 --> 01:31:38,500
from your dad's writing, right?
Is that Ogden?

1504
01:31:38,500 --> 01:31:41,500
Wasn't in this just to make
money.

1505
01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:45,100
This was his calling.
He was, he was, he seems to be

1506
01:31:45,100 --> 01:31:49,000
one of those few people who's
calling walk hand in hand with

1507
01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:52,500
his vocation.
Right.

1508
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:56,700
And he gave way he gave away so
many books.

1509
01:31:56,700 --> 01:32:01,000
You have no idea.
And he always had other work.

1510
01:32:01,300 --> 01:32:04,000
He never he never depended on
that heat.

1511
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:07,200
He didn't want to be a priest
crafts person at all right.

1512
01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:11,200
Really upset with people who did
so he, you know, he covered the

1513
01:32:11,200 --> 01:32:15,300
cost of the books and a little
bit of his time that he, he kept

1514
01:32:15,300 --> 01:32:18,600
those books down price-wise as
cheap as possible.

1515
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:22,500
I've tried the same, you know,
we were selling books at $10

1516
01:32:23,400 --> 01:32:27,400
right after dad died and there's
still ten dollars today, you

1517
01:32:27,400 --> 01:32:31,400
know, and that and books Gone up
in price papers, doubled and

1518
01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:34,200
tripled, and I'm still trying to
keep the costs down.

1519
01:32:35,300 --> 01:32:38,700
He always had a job, he always
had print jobs and he was

1520
01:32:38,700 --> 01:32:42,300
working on.
And so he worked very hard to

1521
01:32:42,308 --> 01:32:48,500
make sure he wasn't making money
on his, you know, his physical

1522
01:32:48,500 --> 01:32:52,600
Priestly office work.
Gotcha, gotcha.

1523
01:32:53,200 --> 01:32:56,900
So, I'm gonna throw a couple
names out because you brought

1524
01:32:56,900 --> 01:32:59,200
him up and I want to hear about
some of the action.

1525
01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:02,400
Your dad had with them.
Tell me about his interactions

1526
01:33:02,400 --> 01:33:09,500
with Bruce are McConkey, okay.
So Bruce Bruce and dad were

1527
01:33:09,900 --> 01:33:13,300
pretty close because Bruce is
Dad Oscar.

1528
01:33:13,500 --> 01:33:16,900
He was always an Oscars house
and talking and doing things and

1529
01:33:16,900 --> 01:33:18,800
whatever.
And so Bruce was there and he

1530
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:26,200
knew dad and and and Bruce Bruce
was, he was an attorney.

1531
01:33:26,200 --> 01:33:28,800
And so he kind of knew both
sides of stories.

1532
01:33:29,900 --> 01:33:34,900
So he could he could produce
really good on either side and

1533
01:33:34,900 --> 01:33:37,300
so my dad would right Bruce
letters.

1534
01:33:37,700 --> 01:33:40,000
And that would have been awesome
to have all the letters.

1535
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:42,900
My dad and him broke back and
forth but they wrote a lot of

1536
01:33:42,907 --> 01:33:48,600
letters back and forth and and
and Bruce bring up this and Dad

1537
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:52,000
bring up that and I think that
pretty well one.

1538
01:33:52,000 --> 01:33:54,600
A lot of the cases there.
I mean you think he really did

1539
01:33:55,100 --> 01:33:59,100
and frustrated Bruce, he was
kind of frustrated but but

1540
01:33:59,600 --> 01:34:03,000
Interesting, as one time.
I remember.

1541
01:34:03,300 --> 01:34:05,100
I said, Dad, how come you
always, quote, Bruce are

1542
01:34:05,100 --> 01:34:07,100
McConkey?
Here is, you know, in the church

1543
01:34:07,100 --> 01:34:09,500
and blah, blah blah.
And he said, let me tell you

1544
01:34:09,500 --> 01:34:12,600
why.
I quote Bruce so much one time

1545
01:34:12,700 --> 01:34:15,200
it was a very deep Doctrine.
I can't remember what it was

1546
01:34:15,200 --> 01:34:20,300
about something with Christ.
And how after he was taken up,

1547
01:34:20,300 --> 01:34:22,900
then he became like the father
and other things.

1548
01:34:22,900 --> 01:34:26,300
And he said, he said.
And I thought about how to word

1549
01:34:26,300 --> 01:34:29,000
that and word that.
And one day I thought, I wonder

1550
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:30,200
what Bruce.
Said about that.

1551
01:34:30,200 --> 01:34:35,100
And so he went back and looked
at it and he said, Bruce said it

1552
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:40,100
impeccably perfect and he goes,
I couldn't do any better.

1553
01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:44,800
So I just quoted Bruce Cuz he's
called this side, you know?

1554
01:34:44,800 --> 01:34:47,700
And so he says when he quoted on
the good side or what I agreed

1555
01:34:47,700 --> 01:34:54,500
with, it was very well written
and towards the end of Bruce's

1556
01:34:54,500 --> 01:35:00,700
life, Bruce passed away and we
were watching the funeral and

1557
01:35:00,700 --> 01:35:04,800
then Dad kind of went out of the
room and and then I laughed or

1558
01:35:04,800 --> 01:35:08,600
something and came back later
and he was in his room still

1559
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:13,000
kind of staring at his books to
kind of kind of You look kind of

1560
01:35:13,000 --> 01:35:15,000
sad or something.
Walk over there, dad's kind of

1561
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:18,600
got some tears in his eyes and I
go Dad, you okay.

1562
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:22,000
And goes oh yeah, just just kind
of sad, you know, on his

1563
01:35:22,000 --> 01:35:25,000
believe, you cried over Bruce
dying, you know, I thought you

1564
01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:29,700
guys were like, you know, mortal
enemies, you know, and he goes,

1565
01:35:30,300 --> 01:35:33,100
no, no.
He says, you got it all wrong.

1566
01:35:33,100 --> 01:35:36,700
He said, he said we we loved
each other because it was like a

1567
01:35:36,700 --> 01:35:39,500
tennis player.
You got to you know you got your

1568
01:35:39,500 --> 01:35:41,800
competition, you get out there.
All right man, I'm gonna beat

1569
01:35:41,800 --> 01:35:44,400
you.
You know, and we got send a

1570
01:35:44,400 --> 01:35:47,900
letter and he'd send a letter
back and I sent a letter he said

1571
01:35:47,900 --> 01:35:49,800
we were having fun.
I go to look up all the

1572
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:54,700
references and and and so we had
fun all those years and he said

1573
01:35:55,100 --> 01:35:58,600
he said after Bruce died, my dad
kind of prophetically said he

1574
01:35:58,600 --> 01:36:03,500
said that's the last scholar
that we will have.

1575
01:36:04,700 --> 01:36:09,000
In the upper echelons of the
church and your dad was was

1576
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:12,200
prophetic on calling that
because there hasn't been

1577
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:16,000
another scholar there.
Hasn't there hasn't been anybody

1578
01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:17,900
else who's done the breadth of
work?

1579
01:36:18,300 --> 01:36:23,600
That that McConkey did while he
was in the in the church while

1580
01:36:23,600 --> 01:36:26,800
he was in in the position and
the 12?

1581
01:36:27,500 --> 01:36:30,500
And that's interesting that your
dad had a love for.

1582
01:36:30,500 --> 01:36:33,200
Bruce are, right?
Yeah, not many people.

1583
01:36:33,200 --> 01:36:37,200
Did I mean Bruce She was you
know, Elder McConkey was a

1584
01:36:37,208 --> 01:36:42,400
little divisive and And the fact
I think your dad shows us

1585
01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:47,300
something still today, right?
Which is We tend to like to

1586
01:36:47,300 --> 01:36:51,000
divide up into camps, right?
You got the fundamentalist, you

1587
01:36:51,000 --> 01:36:53,500
got the independent
fundamentalist, you got someone

1588
01:36:53,500 --> 01:36:57,200
in a group, or you remember the
LDS church, and for whatever

1589
01:36:57,200 --> 01:37:01,500
reason, we think there has to be
animosity there here you have

1590
01:37:01,900 --> 01:37:05,800
probably the leading scholar.
Not probably definitely the

1591
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:10,300
leading scholar and Mormon
fundamentalism having.

1592
01:37:11,300 --> 01:37:17,000
A joyful competition with a
member of the Quorum of The

1593
01:37:17,008 --> 01:37:20,300
Twelve Apostles in the LDS
church, I think it speaks

1594
01:37:20,300 --> 01:37:25,600
volumes about his character and
really should provide for us a

1595
01:37:26,900 --> 01:37:30,900
glance at at the fact that we
don't have to be enemies with

1596
01:37:30,900 --> 01:37:33,200
someone.
We disagree with, we can

1597
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:38,800
disagree vehemently, we can
disagree vigorously but yet

1598
01:37:38,800 --> 01:37:42,500
still have a love for the the
person we're contending with.

1599
01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:47,500
Right.
Yeah and afterwards he said you

1600
01:37:47,500 --> 01:37:51,700
know sad part is I just don't
have anybody else to play with.

1601
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:56,600
He kind of felt like Bruce was
on his level a little bit.

1602
01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:59,900
Yeah, and he says now there's
everybody's gone, there's nobody

1603
01:37:59,900 --> 01:38:04,200
here, you know, I mean I mean
Scout skousen was kind of still

1604
01:38:04,200 --> 01:38:07,700
around for a little while there
and and and he conversed with

1605
01:38:07,700 --> 01:38:13,700
him and they believe course, but
but they were a lot of Here's

1606
01:38:14,100 --> 01:38:18,900
the interesting part was with
with nibali was that was the

1607
01:38:18,900 --> 01:38:20,500
next name.
I was going to go to tell me

1608
01:38:20,500 --> 01:38:22,500
about your dad's interactions
with nibbly.

1609
01:38:23,200 --> 01:38:27,000
Well, the first experience that
I had, you know, I came up and I

1610
01:38:27,008 --> 01:38:31,200
had a lot of questions and some
of them are a little bit deep

1611
01:38:31,200 --> 01:38:37,200
for that, you know, and he says,
maybe you need to go visit q and

1612
01:38:37,200 --> 01:38:39,400
I'll calling.
And so he just picked up the

1613
01:38:39,400 --> 01:38:41,700
phone and my sons coming up to
visit Jazz that.

1614
01:38:41,700 --> 01:38:43,200
Okay.
Oh yeah, yeah, bring him on.

1615
01:38:43,300 --> 01:38:46,700
Yup, you know?
And so, I went up there and I

1616
01:38:46,700 --> 01:38:51,200
mean, I got up there and we
started our conversations me and

1617
01:38:51,200 --> 01:38:55,100
Hugh, and he was like a hero to
me.

1618
01:38:55,100 --> 01:38:59,300
I mean, I, I was like the
egyptology archaeology I worked

1619
01:38:59,300 --> 01:39:01,700
in museums.
I did all this and so we were,

1620
01:39:02,000 --> 01:39:05,100
we were just going back and
forth, back and forth, question

1621
01:39:05,100 --> 01:39:07,400
after question, and he's
answering them.

1622
01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:11,700
And, and, you know, and he was
pretty impressed, you know, with

1623
01:39:11,700 --> 01:39:16,000
all the questions and And one of
the, one of the times I was

1624
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:19,100
there in his office and the
secretary comes in, she goes,

1625
01:39:19,100 --> 01:39:24,400
you you need to get to your your
class, you know, you're kind of

1626
01:39:24,400 --> 01:39:27,300
late and he goes.
Oh, but this is Ogden son.

1627
01:39:28,600 --> 01:39:33,000
I need to talk to, you know, so
no, no you all go to your class

1628
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:35,400
with you and I'll just hang out
and listen and afterwards.

1629
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:37,800
We can keep talking and he goes,
oh, that would be great, you

1630
01:39:37,800 --> 01:39:40,000
know?
And so we went in and I told

1631
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:44,900
him, you know, several I had a
kind of a vision when I was

1632
01:39:44,900 --> 01:39:48,500
young about Zion and they were
traveling in the wilderness with

1633
01:39:48,500 --> 01:39:53,200
teepees and he jumps out of his
seat in he's all excited teepees

1634
01:39:53,200 --> 01:39:58,200
teepees do you see you always
say, you see because it's

1635
01:39:58,200 --> 01:40:03,000
nomadic it symbolizes nomadic
which we will be in Zion at that

1636
01:40:03,000 --> 01:40:07,900
time we'll be traveling in the
wilderness and so that was neat,

1637
01:40:09,700 --> 01:40:13,800
I got unto Adam god with him, he
explained all the You know,

1638
01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:17,000
phases that there are all
different kinds of things.

1639
01:40:17,100 --> 01:40:20,600
What was his take on?
Adam God, I think it well he

1640
01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:25,500
told I did tell a story on
YouTube about about that

1641
01:40:25,500 --> 01:40:31,000
conversation and my dad told me
that he would told him a lot of

1642
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:32,300
stories.
Wasn't there a lot?

1643
01:40:32,300 --> 01:40:35,800
I could stories and egyptology
about Adam God and he goes, oh

1644
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:38,900
yeah, they're all over the place
and he says, well like what?

1645
01:40:38,900 --> 01:40:42,900
You know and he says, well one
of them was it was kind of like

1646
01:40:43,300 --> 01:40:47,000
a fairytale kind of where they
kind of make a story up to kind

1647
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:52,400
of help people understand but he
said in one of the stories that

1648
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:57,100
the Egyptians told, well there
was this Council of gods and

1649
01:40:57,100 --> 01:41:01,200
they had finished making the
Earth and they got it already

1650
01:41:01,500 --> 01:41:06,400
but one of the Gods had to come
down and spawn off, life, spawn

1651
01:41:06,400 --> 01:41:11,300
off humanity and so they all
looked at each other and they're

1652
01:41:11,300 --> 01:41:15,300
up there and their cushy thing
and you It's nice and Posh and

1653
01:41:15,300 --> 01:41:20,200
nobody wants to go to mortality
again, you know, so so they they

1654
01:41:20,700 --> 01:41:23,600
said there was one guy like me,
I'm not really paying attention,

1655
01:41:23,600 --> 01:41:26,000
always reading a book or
something and he's over there

1656
01:41:26,000 --> 01:41:29,800
kind of not paying attention and
so they drew sticks and Drew his

1657
01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:32,200
straw though.
You know, the short stick,

1658
01:41:32,700 --> 01:41:34,200
right?
We went over there and said you

1659
01:41:34,200 --> 01:41:36,300
got to go down and he goes I
don't want to go down and they

1660
01:41:36,300 --> 01:41:37,500
go.
Oh yes, you do.

1661
01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:39,600
You're going to go down and they
said no, I'm not and they

1662
01:41:39,608 --> 01:41:44,100
grabbed him and they threw him
down to earth and he went Down

1663
01:41:44,300 --> 01:41:47,900
and as he was going, he was
stumbling and he falls and hits

1664
01:41:47,900 --> 01:41:54,000
his nose and he looks and he
looks and he's got blood on his

1665
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:58,900
hand and he defends.
Oh no, I'm immortal.

1666
01:42:00,800 --> 01:42:02,400
Wow.
So there.

1667
01:42:02,600 --> 01:42:06,700
That's the story.
So so Hugh you get this feeling

1668
01:42:06,700 --> 01:42:09,000
that you believed the atom God
Doctrine.

1669
01:42:09,900 --> 01:42:12,900
Yeah.
Yeah that's interesting.

1670
01:42:13,100 --> 01:42:15,800
What about skousen he have?
Did your dad have much

1671
01:42:15,800 --> 01:42:22,800
interaction with with Cleon?
Oh I have written stuff.

1672
01:42:22,900 --> 01:42:26,600
Clear back before.
Cleon it was before I was born.

1673
01:42:26,600 --> 01:42:31,200
My dad and Fruita Colorado my
father, believe it or not

1674
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:40,100
actually started the John Birch
Society in Salt Lake City, he

1675
01:42:40,100 --> 01:42:43,700
was the one that started the
John Birch and so, my dad was

1676
01:42:43,700 --> 01:42:45,900
very patriotic.
He knew all that.

1677
01:42:45,900 --> 01:42:48,800
It J, prac and lie.
He knew all the guys back in the

1678
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:51,100
day.
I've got a letter.

1679
01:42:51,500 --> 01:42:57,200
My dad wrote to J, Edgar Hoover,
my dad, wrote, all kinds of

1680
01:42:57,200 --> 01:43:00,600
letters about communism about
things, you know, Jed Guru,

1681
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:04,600
Hoover, wrote back and and so,
there was a lot of stuff that

1682
01:43:04,600 --> 01:43:08,300
Dad had Seen in World War Two
and other things, you know, in

1683
01:43:08,300 --> 01:43:11,100
the military about communism
that kind of can, you know,

1684
01:43:11,100 --> 01:43:14,700
scared hearing a lot of stories
that made him very concerned

1685
01:43:14,700 --> 01:43:16,100
about, you know, what could
happen.

1686
01:43:16,500 --> 01:43:21,100
And so, Ezra Taft Benson by the
way, they kind of knew each

1687
01:43:21,100 --> 01:43:24,400
other in the early phases of
that, however, to I don't think

1688
01:43:24,400 --> 01:43:30,600
Ezra Taft Benson like my dad's
response to his follow the

1689
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:34,200
prophet lecture because my dad
wrote a response to that.

1690
01:43:34,500 --> 01:43:37,900
So they kind of They've got a
little bitter towards that but

1691
01:43:38,200 --> 01:43:44,100
and that's another day.
But anyway skousen and my dad

1692
01:43:44,100 --> 01:43:47,000
knew.
All I remember skousen in my

1693
01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:51,200
home, really at dugway.
He came out there and they

1694
01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:56,100
visited all the time and
conversed and lots of letters

1695
01:43:56,100 --> 01:43:59,500
back and forth between skousen
and all kinds of things that

1696
01:43:59,500 --> 01:44:02,400
went on.
And he definitely knew my dad

1697
01:44:02,400 --> 01:44:05,000
very well.
They were dad helped him on some

1698
01:44:05,200 --> 01:44:09,800
His research and some of the
things and it was really fun.

1699
01:44:10,600 --> 01:44:15,800
Do you think your dad had your
dad feel about his scholarship

1700
01:44:15,900 --> 01:44:19,600
about skousen scholarship
because he wrote several books

1701
01:44:19,600 --> 01:44:22,700
and one that I enjoy.
And I remember reading was the

1702
01:44:22,700 --> 01:44:25,800
Thousand Years Series, right?
Where it goes through the Old

1703
01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:29,400
Testament, how did your dad feel
about his research and about

1704
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:34,300
his, his scholarly Endeavors?
Well, a lot of people don't know

1705
01:44:34,300 --> 01:44:37,800
this, but Counsel was kind of
Ride Along with that and all

1706
01:44:37,800 --> 01:44:43,800
these guys, the very first book
member Scouts and kind of wanted

1707
01:44:43,800 --> 01:44:46,200
to become.
He, let people know he wanted to

1708
01:44:46,200 --> 01:44:50,500
be a general Authority.
Okay, he he really kind of

1709
01:44:50,500 --> 01:44:55,100
wanted to get up into that.
Now, my dad was called three or

1710
01:44:55,100 --> 01:44:58,400
four times to be a general
Authority and weird things

1711
01:44:58,400 --> 01:45:03,400
happen, and kept him out of
being that really one who I will

1712
01:45:03,400 --> 01:45:04,800
go there.
But anyway, this is another

1713
01:45:05,100 --> 01:45:08,700
three.
One time I right.

1714
01:45:08,700 --> 01:45:11,400
I'll tell the story.
Yeah, tell the story.

1715
01:45:11,400 --> 01:45:13,700
I mean this is about your dad.
Let's tell the story.

1716
01:45:14,000 --> 01:45:18,500
So what happens is my dad gets
called there's a calling where

1717
01:45:18,500 --> 01:45:22,600
they call and then they have to
vote on it and it has to be

1718
01:45:22,600 --> 01:45:26,500
unanimous look who's coming in.
And so it's down in Grand

1719
01:45:26,500 --> 01:45:31,700
Junction.
And and I heard a story or rumor

1720
01:45:31,700 --> 01:45:35,700
about this years ago and I could
never get the story straight, my

1721
01:45:35,700 --> 01:45:38,400
dad would never Ever speak of
lick of it?

1722
01:45:38,500 --> 01:45:40,600
I don't know.
I know it's not important.

1723
01:45:40,700 --> 01:45:44,500
My mom wouldn't say anything.
I just never could figure it

1724
01:45:44,500 --> 01:45:46,700
out.
And one day, I had an uncle,

1725
01:45:47,100 --> 01:45:50,700
Uncle Neil, he he was in a
wheelchair and church knew him

1726
01:45:50,700 --> 01:45:52,300
very well.
He made these little gold

1727
01:45:52,300 --> 01:45:54,400
plates, you know, that were
golden, and they sold him.

1728
01:45:54,400 --> 01:45:58,900
It Deseret Book.
And one day, I did this for nail

1729
01:45:58,900 --> 01:46:00,400
and he said, what can I do for
you?

1730
01:46:00,400 --> 01:46:03,400
Anything and I said, I want to
know the true story of what

1731
01:46:03,400 --> 01:46:06,100
happened with my dad, not
becoming a general.

1732
01:46:09,200 --> 01:46:10,800
I knew you were going to ask
that question.

1733
01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:14,600
Okay, I'll tell you.
So here's what happens.

1734
01:46:14,600 --> 01:46:19,400
So, down in Grand Junction, they
kind of met there for conference

1735
01:46:19,400 --> 01:46:24,100
or something going on and he was
a clerk with a call him a

1736
01:46:24,108 --> 01:46:28,100
recorder and so he was keeping
records, is they, you know,

1737
01:46:28,100 --> 01:46:32,800
notes, they were doing this this
discussion and anyway so all the

1738
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:35,500
general authorities came.
Oh yeah we love Ogden.

1739
01:46:35,500 --> 01:46:38,100
Will all bring a man you will do
this and that nice.

1740
01:46:38,300 --> 01:46:41,400
As well.
There's only one more General

1741
01:46:41,400 --> 01:46:45,300
Authority that's coming and we
had, we're waiting on him.

1742
01:46:45,800 --> 01:46:49,800
So then he shows up and then
they say well the person we are

1743
01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:51,800
trying to bring in as Ogden
Kraut.

1744
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:56,100
What do you think about Ogden?
And he said, I can't sponsor

1745
01:46:56,100 --> 01:46:58,900
augment.
I'm going to go why what's wrong

1746
01:46:58,900 --> 01:47:00,900
with Ogden?
And he said, there's absolutely

1747
01:47:00,900 --> 01:47:06,600
nothing wrong with Ogden.
He said it's his wife.

1748
01:47:06,700 --> 01:47:09,700
She's too fat.
She's not General.

1749
01:47:09,700 --> 01:47:16,000
Oh, she's not General Authority
material, my uncle.

1750
01:47:16,300 --> 01:47:20,400
My uncle sitting there recording
and this is his sister.

1751
01:47:22,300 --> 01:47:27,300
And so he slams, he slams the
pencil down and he just walks

1752
01:47:27,300 --> 01:47:28,800
out and he goes, what's wrong
with him?

1753
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:31,000
And they said that was his
sister.

1754
01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:33,300
You just offended and he goes,
oh no.

1755
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:38,400
And so he walks out and then
they all kind of re-evaluate.

1756
01:47:38,400 --> 01:47:41,300
Well Ogden's got these
fundamentalist ties and better

1757
01:47:41,300 --> 01:47:46,200
than well he, you know, there's
one disagrees so it's not going

1758
01:47:46,200 --> 01:47:49,300
to happen.
And I says, well when I went

1759
01:47:49,300 --> 01:47:52,300
back and told my dad the Aureus.
Is this sound Camille?

1760
01:47:52,300 --> 01:47:53,700
Told me?
I want to know if it's true.

1761
01:47:53,700 --> 01:47:55,500
That he goes.
Yeah, that's true.

1762
01:47:55,500 --> 01:47:58,000
But it's not important, it's not
important.

1763
01:47:58,300 --> 01:48:00,500
And I said, well, why is it
important?

1764
01:48:00,500 --> 01:48:03,900
Seems important to me and he
goes, he goes, it's okay.

1765
01:48:03,900 --> 01:48:07,700
It just wasn't meant to be.
I thought I got in there.

1766
01:48:07,700 --> 01:48:11,300
I did just gotten thrown out,
probably like George pili or

1767
01:48:11,300 --> 01:48:13,300
something.
I do wrote letters or something

1768
01:48:13,300 --> 01:48:17,700
or said something.
And so I just I just don't think

1769
01:48:17,700 --> 01:48:20,300
that was it was not that
important.

1770
01:48:20,900 --> 01:48:25,800
Right, while he was to be called
up to that loop back to skousen.

1771
01:48:26,100 --> 01:48:28,800
So skousen was kind of, you
know, leading that way.

1772
01:48:29,100 --> 01:48:34,100
And one day I was a deai with my
dad and I bought the first two

1773
01:48:34,100 --> 01:48:38,100
thousand years and I opened the
book and it was a first edition.

1774
01:48:39,600 --> 01:48:44,300
Oh ho ho my dad goes.
That's a first edition by that

1775
01:48:44,300 --> 01:48:46,300
right now.
In Toronto got it and you got

1776
01:48:46,300 --> 01:48:48,700
some the car and he goes let me
show you something.

1777
01:48:49,100 --> 01:48:54,000
And so did you know that in the
first edition of scouse ins two

1778
01:48:54,000 --> 01:48:57,100
thousand years.
He taught Adam God.

1779
01:48:58,300 --> 01:49:01,900
Really right there, talk to you
about.

1780
01:49:01,900 --> 01:49:04,900
Adam got Adam, god, post,
Brigham Young quotes, this other

1781
01:49:04,900 --> 01:49:09,200
stuff that it up and he said
that's why the church came down

1782
01:49:09,200 --> 01:49:12,400
on him.
And he had to rewrite that

1783
01:49:12,500 --> 01:49:15,800
addition and get the atom God
out of there.

1784
01:49:16,000 --> 01:49:17,800
Do you still have that?
I do.

1785
01:49:18,700 --> 01:49:20,300
That's awesome.
One of these days I'll have to

1786
01:49:20,300 --> 01:49:24,500
go over and you can show me
because man, and and even in his

1787
01:49:24,500 --> 01:49:29,500
rewrite, There are certain
things that you can spot that

1788
01:49:29,500 --> 01:49:32,200
are still there, right?
You could tell the scows and

1789
01:49:32,200 --> 01:49:36,300
still held to that.
He just had to reword it to ya.

1790
01:49:36,600 --> 01:49:39,600
Get get approval.
Well that's awesome.

1791
01:49:40,400 --> 01:49:44,500
Okay so let me ask you this.
We're getting towards the end

1792
01:49:44,500 --> 01:49:46,000
here.
We've been on here for about two

1793
01:49:46,000 --> 01:49:50,500
hours now.
What What do you think?

1794
01:49:51,500 --> 01:49:55,300
Your dad's biggest
disappointment was as he was

1795
01:49:55,300 --> 01:49:58,900
watching Mormonism towards the
end of his life?

1796
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:10,900
I would say it had to be all the
breakdown of the early doctrines

1797
01:50:10,900 --> 01:50:16,300
and early church things, and we
became all of the people were

1798
01:50:16,300 --> 01:50:21,600
becoming more worldly.
Money was very important, United

1799
01:50:21,600 --> 01:50:23,700
order there.
Just me didn't didn't see that

1800
01:50:23,700 --> 01:50:25,700
anymore.
There wasn't that kind of

1801
01:50:25,900 --> 01:50:31,700
feeling nibbly, talked about
that, he personally might be the

1802
01:50:31,700 --> 01:50:35,700
first thing that might, Dad gave
me when I first started was, it

1803
01:50:35,700 --> 01:50:40,000
was nibblies.
Notes is handwritten notes on

1804
01:50:41,600 --> 01:50:44,300
his book called approaching
Zion.

1805
01:50:44,300 --> 01:50:47,700
There was one chapter in there
called what is Zion and distant

1806
01:50:47,700 --> 01:50:51,000
View and that what is Zion?
A distant view?

1807
01:50:51,400 --> 01:50:54,700
Just turned me from trying to
become a millionaire and

1808
01:50:54,700 --> 01:50:57,700
everything else.
Look Mia right around and I

1809
01:50:57,700 --> 01:51:00,400
went.
Okay, what is going on here?

1810
01:51:00,500 --> 01:51:05,900
I mean, it was so provoking.
Because it became about money

1811
01:51:05,900 --> 01:51:10,900
and me, progressing me rather
than all of us together and

1812
01:51:10,900 --> 01:51:13,900
bringing up.
And that was why in my dream,

1813
01:51:14,600 --> 01:51:19,000
our vision of the future.
With Zion, I could tell that

1814
01:51:19,000 --> 01:51:23,500
every single human being in that
group was more concerned about

1815
01:51:23,500 --> 01:51:27,000
the others than themselves.
And if one man stumbled, there

1816
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:29,800
were 1,000 men there to pick him
up.

1817
01:51:30,200 --> 01:51:32,500
They just weren't going to let
that man go.

1818
01:51:32,900 --> 01:51:36,200
You know if you stumble utter he
was heading to Temptation.

1819
01:51:36,600 --> 01:51:41,200
They all had ESP.
They all knew they all were of

1820
01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:45,400
one heart and one mind and so
they knew each other's minds.

1821
01:51:45,700 --> 01:51:49,900
They was like you know when I've
had my near-death where the

1822
01:51:49,900 --> 01:51:55,300
Angels talk to, you mind to mind
and that happened my mother even

1823
01:51:55,300 --> 01:51:58,700
did that you know with me.
You know I'd be out somewhere

1824
01:51:58,700 --> 01:52:01,700
and I'd hear my Mom calling you
know I'm like bet you.

1825
01:52:01,800 --> 01:52:03,000
Yeah, yeah.
Home.

1826
01:52:03,000 --> 01:52:05,400
You know, I'm like, oh, crap
Mom's telling me to get home,

1827
01:52:05,400 --> 01:52:08,900
you know, I had those weird kind
of experiences when I was young

1828
01:52:09,500 --> 01:52:16,700
and, and also on my mission so.
So anyway, I think the most

1829
01:52:16,700 --> 01:52:19,700
disappointing thing was the
money aspect.

1830
01:52:19,700 --> 01:52:23,300
They all became about money, but
also the big corruption

1831
01:52:23,300 --> 01:52:26,200
happening.
There was lots of things being

1832
01:52:26,200 --> 01:52:29,000
corrupted in the people, the
fundamentalist people were

1833
01:52:29,000 --> 01:52:32,300
losing, they started to get bad
leaders.

1834
01:52:32,900 --> 01:52:36,300
There were some leaders that
came into some of the very good

1835
01:52:36,300 --> 01:52:40,400
groups that started doing things
that were just not part of the

1836
01:52:40,407 --> 01:52:44,700
program and you could feel the
spirit of a changing, you know,

1837
01:52:44,700 --> 01:52:50,600
the entire group feeling went
down and and then towards the

1838
01:52:50,600 --> 01:52:54,400
end, I think it was just
discouraged because so many

1839
01:52:54,400 --> 01:52:56,800
people were just going off the
deep end.

1840
01:52:56,800 --> 01:53:00,100
They didn't care anymore.
You know he'd written all these

1841
01:53:00,100 --> 01:53:02,400
books and wrote this stuff and
nobody cared.

1842
01:53:02,400 --> 01:53:05,700
He felt like nobody cared.
You know, one of the last things

1843
01:53:05,700 --> 01:53:09,400
that nibbly said, On his
deathbed.

1844
01:53:11,600 --> 01:53:13,800
I don't think I did any good in
this world.

1845
01:53:16,600 --> 01:53:18,800
You know, they just and I think
great men.

1846
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:21,600
They feel like they've
accomplished this, but then in

1847
01:53:21,600 --> 01:53:25,200
the end, they, they don't see
all the hundreds of people that

1848
01:53:25,200 --> 01:53:28,400
they don't know the influence of
what happened.

1849
01:53:30,400 --> 01:53:33,100
And I think that's kind of where
my dad started feeling kind of,

1850
01:53:33,100 --> 01:53:38,800
that same way, kind of, maybe a
loss of vision, for, for Mormon,

1851
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:42,300
people in general and then just
an overall corruption.

1852
01:53:43,200 --> 01:53:46,400
Well, in the Brigham Young made
his statement much like this.

1853
01:53:46,400 --> 01:53:51,800
He said, I fear less the leaders
and the last days will lead our

1854
01:53:51,800 --> 01:53:55,800
people even unto the brink of
hell, right?

1855
01:53:55,800 --> 01:54:01,300
He's here we are kind of edging.
The really terrible stuff of

1856
01:54:01,300 --> 01:54:07,100
this world and we're seeing that
in the sexual perversions and

1857
01:54:07,100 --> 01:54:12,500
sexual things going on.
We see all kinds of bad.

1858
01:54:12,700 --> 01:54:16,800
Influences happening and
families and you know it's being

1859
01:54:16,800 --> 01:54:18,000
taken.
Its toll.

1860
01:54:18,700 --> 01:54:21,000
Sure.
What do you think your dad's

1861
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:27,500
Legacy is?
But I think his legacy is, yeah.

1862
01:54:28,800 --> 01:54:33,200
I think the greatest Legacy that
I think he felt was this

1863
01:54:33,200 --> 01:54:37,700
upcoming book where we're taking
all of the books together as

1864
01:54:37,700 --> 01:54:42,000
Encyclopedia set and it's going
to be compiled into one big

1865
01:54:42,000 --> 01:54:46,400
book, like the very Bible that
the angel brought through the

1866
01:54:46,400 --> 01:54:51,600
window I think that's his legacy
is those books.

1867
01:54:53,300 --> 01:54:56,900
Right?
What kind of impact youth feel

1868
01:54:56,900 --> 01:55:02,700
your dad had?
I know he had a huge impact in

1869
01:55:02,700 --> 01:55:08,800
and outside the church and, you
know, I know people have been

1870
01:55:08,900 --> 01:55:13,000
influenced, well, within the
church, there were lots and lots

1871
01:55:13,000 --> 01:55:18,300
of people who secretly were in
the church and state and the

1872
01:55:18,300 --> 01:55:22,500
church and whatever that but my
dad influenced, you know, in one

1873
01:55:22,500 --> 01:55:25,900
way or another but their
questions, their answers.

1874
01:55:28,600 --> 01:55:32,400
There's, there's people who I
know we were going to throw the

1875
01:55:32,400 --> 01:55:34,800
whole baby out with the
bathwater and because they got

1876
01:55:34,800 --> 01:55:38,200
ahold of death as books.
They stuck with the program,

1877
01:55:38,200 --> 01:55:41,200
they stuck with trying to
understand and keep going.

1878
01:55:41,900 --> 01:55:46,500
That's what I hope for her wish
I could get out there to most

1879
01:55:46,500 --> 01:55:50,300
people in the church is because
just like me when I started

1880
01:55:50,300 --> 01:55:55,700
learning that gosh, we've been
lied to, you know, I mean, Bruce

1881
01:55:55,700 --> 01:55:58,000
our McConkey was saying on one
point.

1882
01:55:58,300 --> 01:56:00,300
Brigham.
Young never taught this doctrine

1883
01:56:01,200 --> 01:56:04,700
of Adam, God and dad got after
Bruce and he said, why did you

1884
01:56:04,700 --> 01:56:07,400
do that Bruce?
I mean, now the anti Mormons are

1885
01:56:07,400 --> 01:56:12,200
saying, look here, we can show
all these places where Adam God

1886
01:56:12,200 --> 01:56:15,900
was taught, and here's these
references and I had an anti

1887
01:56:15,900 --> 01:56:19,600
come to me in the in the mission
field, one time and showed me

1888
01:56:19,600 --> 01:56:22,800
all these controversial things
and I looked at it and they go

1889
01:56:22,800 --> 01:56:26,500
oh that's a great verse.
I like that one that proves Adam

1890
01:56:26,500 --> 01:56:28,800
God really well you should have
Seen their face.

1891
01:56:28,800 --> 01:56:35,500
They didn't have any animals and
and so, so I don't know, you

1892
01:56:35,500 --> 01:56:39,700
know, his influence with.
I remember a man is very

1893
01:56:39,700 --> 01:56:44,400
prominent in our community on
the big business and he's not

1894
01:56:44,400 --> 01:56:48,600
LDS and he said your dad's stuff
went everywhere.

1895
01:56:48,600 --> 01:56:53,000
I was up in deep Alaska, hunting
on a big old hunting thing, were

1896
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:55,100
bored.
There's no TV, there's no

1897
01:56:55,100 --> 01:56:56,600
anything.
We can't get any of these.

1898
01:56:56,600 --> 01:57:00,200
Just bored out of my gourd.
I go to this little Hut, they

1899
01:57:00,200 --> 01:57:03,800
call the library and there was a
bunch of your dad's books.

1900
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:09,600
There he goes, man!
They're everywhere, they were

1901
01:57:09,600 --> 01:57:13,500
everywhere for a long time, a
lot of people had his books and

1902
01:57:13,500 --> 01:57:17,200
went there, you know, I'm gonna
say something I've told it

1903
01:57:17,200 --> 01:57:22,400
before on the podcast, but I I
want to tell you when because I

1904
01:57:22,400 --> 01:57:27,400
entered fundamentalism in
probably the most head, first

1905
01:57:27,400 --> 01:57:29,300
way you can do it.
I started practicing plural

1906
01:57:29,300 --> 01:57:32,700
marriage before I knew much of
anything about Adam God, or

1907
01:57:32,700 --> 01:57:35,400
anything else.
And I remember trying to figure

1908
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:40,100
out where it was, I was supposed
to go to have me and my second

1909
01:57:40,100 --> 01:57:49,300
wife sealed, and I was just
Worried sick about getting it

1910
01:57:49,300 --> 01:57:54,800
done and it was one of your
dad's articles came out of a

1911
01:57:54,800 --> 01:58:01,100
book about a solemn, Covenant.
And I read that and there was so

1912
01:58:01,100 --> 01:58:05,600
much comfort in that and so much
we can do this, right?

1913
01:58:07,600 --> 01:58:12,600
I think let me rephrase that, I
really believe at this point,

1914
01:58:12,700 --> 01:58:14,200
we're going to see your dad's
work.

1915
01:58:14,200 --> 01:58:21,000
Start to play a more prominent
role just shortly before or

1916
01:58:21,000 --> 01:58:23,000
shortly.
After I started this podcast

1917
01:58:23,000 --> 01:58:27,500
under the banner of Heaven, came
out the movie on on Hulu about

1918
01:58:27,500 --> 01:58:32,600
the Lafferty's and there were
all sorts of questions coming in

1919
01:58:32,700 --> 01:58:37,200
about blood atonement about Adam
God Doctrine about these old.

1920
01:58:37,400 --> 01:58:40,300
Skewer Mormon doctrines that
just aren't taught anymore.

1921
01:58:42,400 --> 01:58:46,400
I would dare to bet that your
dad's work had a tremendous

1922
01:58:46,400 --> 01:58:50,200
influence on just keeping people
in the LDS church, right?

1923
01:58:50,200 --> 01:58:54,500
Forget fundamentalism just in
the LDS church because it's the

1924
01:58:54,500 --> 01:58:57,900
one place you can go where
you're not going to get spin.

1925
01:58:57,900 --> 01:59:01,600
You're not going to get.
Proselytizing in terms of come

1926
01:59:01,600 --> 01:59:05,800
join this group.
It's just straight fact.

1927
01:59:06,400 --> 01:59:10,700
And straight fact is
non-threatening because it just

1928
01:59:10,700 --> 01:59:13,000
is what it is.
The truth has no agenda.

1929
01:59:14,300 --> 01:59:17,600
To me the feeling I had.
When I read your dad's work on a

1930
01:59:17,608 --> 01:59:21,400
solemn, Covenant, when I read
your when, when, when I read

1931
01:59:21,400 --> 01:59:26,100
your dad's work on Adam God, I
think that's his legacy, right?

1932
01:59:26,100 --> 01:59:29,500
He compiled all this and I
think, like, most great men,

1933
01:59:29,500 --> 01:59:31,900
they never get to see what their
legacy is.

1934
01:59:32,500 --> 01:59:35,300
It's only afterwards right,
Moses didn't get to see the

1935
01:59:35,300 --> 01:59:37,600
promised land.
He got see it, but he never got

1936
01:59:37,600 --> 01:59:41,500
to enter it and I think your dad
is probably right there, right?

1937
01:59:41,500 --> 01:59:45,300
Never really getting to see.
Exactly what he's done.

1938
01:59:46,000 --> 01:59:50,200
But the work that he did was
just has just been vital to

1939
01:59:50,200 --> 01:59:54,600
fundamentalist everywhere.
So what is it you do now with,

1940
01:59:54,600 --> 01:59:57,000
with your dad's work, where are
you up to these days?

1941
01:59:58,400 --> 02:00:01,200
Okay, let me let me interject
real quick because you brought

1942
02:00:01,200 --> 02:00:04,500
up a good point that I want to
tell a story about Hugh Nibley.

1943
02:00:04,700 --> 02:00:08,600
Yeah.
And this is on Dad's Legacy and

1944
02:00:08,800 --> 02:00:11,400
people who had influenced and
that kind of thing.

1945
02:00:11,700 --> 02:00:15,700
And I went up to use and I was
talking to him and I said you

1946
02:00:15,700 --> 02:00:18,600
don't you I'm reading all my
dad's books and I'm feeling the

1947
02:00:18,600 --> 02:00:20,800
spirit of it.
I mean, it's just all making

1948
02:00:20,800 --> 02:00:22,800
sense.
It's just, I mean, I just I

1949
02:00:22,808 --> 02:00:25,200
don't get it, he's
excommunicated and this and that

1950
02:00:25,200 --> 02:00:31,300
he turned to me and he said,
Your dad every book I've read of

1951
02:00:31,300 --> 02:00:33,900
your dad so far, there were a
few that he hadn't written at

1952
02:00:33,900 --> 02:00:38,800
the end.
It all is the pure Gospel of

1953
02:00:38,800 --> 02:00:45,700
Jesus Christ.
And then he said your dad, there

1954
02:00:45,700 --> 02:00:48,800
are people that come to me all
the time and they want to know

1955
02:00:48,800 --> 02:00:52,000
about this.
Adam God doctor and he says, I

1956
02:00:52,000 --> 02:00:56,600
can't answer that and so he says
I send him down to the library

1957
02:00:56,900 --> 02:01:00,300
and to get this Ogden crowd book
and they read it and then I said

1958
02:01:00,300 --> 02:01:03,100
he says and then I want you to
go read it and then I want you

1959
02:01:03,100 --> 02:01:07,000
to come back and talk to me and
invariably they'd come back and

1960
02:01:07,000 --> 02:01:10,400
they'd say, Okay Hugh I got it,
I got it all figured out, no

1961
02:01:10,400 --> 02:01:12,200
problem, they go back to doing
there.

1962
02:01:12,400 --> 02:01:14,000
Church callings.
They're all good.

1963
02:01:14,000 --> 02:01:19,000
They're all happy.
And he says he still has your

1964
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:26,200
father has saved more people
from the anti Mormons than any

1965
02:01:26,200 --> 02:01:28,200
person.
I know.

1966
02:01:29,500 --> 02:01:33,400
Yeah, no, I believe it 100%
without a doubt.

1967
02:01:34,300 --> 02:01:41,100
Without a doubt.
So I think it was going now with

1968
02:01:41,100 --> 02:01:44,300
my legacy.
As you wanted to know what I'm

1969
02:01:44,300 --> 02:01:49,000
trying to do is we have been
working, very hard to get that

1970
02:01:49,000 --> 02:01:57,800
big book done Okay, but I'm also
allowing people to, like, online

1971
02:01:58,300 --> 02:02:01,100
on augment crowd.com.
You can go there and you can

1972
02:02:01,100 --> 02:02:04,000
read all of Dad's books on there
for free.

1973
02:02:04,700 --> 02:02:09,200
And how that came was a dream.
Because all the other

1974
02:02:09,200 --> 02:02:13,400
fundamentalist guys, they know,
you know, they they have their

1975
02:02:13,400 --> 02:02:15,800
books for cell.
They don't just have it online

1976
02:02:15,800 --> 02:02:21,200
for free and Dad lost a lot of
books sales because he Some of

1977
02:02:21,200 --> 02:02:24,500
them online and I was
questioning whether I should do

1978
02:02:24,500 --> 02:02:28,900
that or not.
And one night, I had a dream and

1979
02:02:28,900 --> 02:02:32,500
it was a weird dream but I saw
the Savior sitting there with

1980
02:02:32,500 --> 02:02:35,800
another man.
And this man is arguing and he's

1981
02:02:35,800 --> 02:02:40,400
saying but I didn't know because
this and this and and and I just

1982
02:02:40,400 --> 02:02:44,000
didn't get that information.
It wasn't available and the

1983
02:02:44,000 --> 02:02:48,500
Savior turned to him and said,
well, all of that information

1984
02:02:48,500 --> 02:02:53,600
was online on.
Kraut.com for free.

1985
02:02:55,500 --> 02:02:59,200
Why didn't that was the answer
to my prayer and I wake up and

1986
02:02:59,200 --> 02:03:02,100
I'm going, well, I guess we're
going to put these all online

1987
02:03:02,100 --> 02:03:05,500
for free food.
So that's how that happened.

1988
02:03:05,500 --> 02:03:07,400
And so, the books are in
circulation.

1989
02:03:07,400 --> 02:03:09,100
There out there for people to
read.

1990
02:03:09,300 --> 02:03:13,400
I want to reach more people with
the information, you know.

1991
02:03:13,400 --> 02:03:17,000
Dad would want that to get out
to spread that out and get more

1992
02:03:17,100 --> 02:03:19,900
into.
We're trying to get where people

1993
02:03:19,900 --> 02:03:22,600
can just push a button and
listen to it because a lot of

1994
02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:24,600
people can listen while they're
doing things.

1995
02:03:25,300 --> 02:03:29,300
Readers reader apps that can do
that, but we just need this to

1996
02:03:29,300 --> 02:03:32,600
get it better so that people can
just like on YouTube.

1997
02:03:32,600 --> 02:03:35,800
Be nice if they could have one
already reading the whole book

1998
02:03:35,800 --> 02:03:38,200
or part of the right.
I don't know.

1999
02:03:39,700 --> 02:03:43,300
However, we can get that
information out, perfect.

2000
02:03:43,600 --> 02:03:47,400
And then now I'm a big believer
in owning the book, right?

2001
02:03:47,400 --> 02:03:50,200
Just because I'm always scared
of the internet not being

2002
02:03:50,200 --> 02:03:54,100
available or what a lot of
people, I included feel that

2003
02:03:54,100 --> 02:03:56,600
way.
If someone I wanted to go buy

2004
02:03:56,600 --> 02:03:59,000
those books from you, where do
they go to do that?

2005
02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:00,700
Where do they go to purchase
those books?

2006
02:04:01,000 --> 02:04:04,200
Okay, so we have an actual print
shop.

2007
02:04:04,700 --> 02:04:09,100
It's in Santaquin and there's a
phone number.

2008
02:04:09,100 --> 02:04:17,000
It's a 2016 09. 22, 22.
Or twos.

2009
02:04:17,000 --> 02:04:24,000
And I we have a p.o. box.
It's PO Box. 222 Santaquin Utah,

2010
02:04:24,600 --> 02:04:28,700
846 55.
And can they just walk into the

2011
02:04:28,700 --> 02:04:32,100
print shop and buy some that
they can walk in the print shop?

2012
02:04:32,100 --> 02:04:35,100
Where over Brew 9:00 to 6:00
every day except for Saturday

2013
02:04:35,100 --> 02:04:37,000
and Sunday.
And what's the name of the print

2014
02:04:37,000 --> 02:04:42,900
shop old Pioneer Press perfect.
Now, we dad's was Pioneer Press

2015
02:04:42,900 --> 02:04:45,400
so I had to change it a little
so I changed the whole The

2016
02:04:45,407 --> 02:04:48,300
Pioneer Press Perfect.
All right.

2017
02:04:48,300 --> 02:04:51,500
Well yeah, I can't recommend
your dad's books.

2018
02:04:51,500 --> 02:04:54,000
Highly enough.
In fact, Kevin I need you to

2019
02:04:54,000 --> 02:04:57,100
stick around after this podcast
is over because I want to figure

2020
02:04:57,100 --> 02:05:00,100
out how to get a copy of Ensign
of the net to the nation's.

2021
02:05:00,600 --> 02:05:06,800
But yeah, I can't encourage any
everybody to go out and get his

2022
02:05:06,800 --> 02:05:10,000
book, whether your LDS or
whether you're a fundamentalist

2023
02:05:10,100 --> 02:05:14,900
or whatever it is, great
resources, good information.

2024
02:05:15,900 --> 02:05:19,300
Just straight truth.
So Kevin, is there anything you

2025
02:05:19,300 --> 02:05:24,200
want to say as we wrap up here
tonight Well, I'm really

2026
02:05:24,200 --> 02:05:26,000
grateful.
We did this because there's a

2027
02:05:26,008 --> 02:05:29,700
couple stories that are never
told and I think there were

2028
02:05:29,700 --> 02:05:34,400
there very important for people
to understand but I think I

2029
02:05:34,400 --> 02:05:38,100
think people need to really get
back to the in the LDS church

2030
02:05:38,100 --> 02:05:40,500
today.
I think they need to get back to

2031
02:05:40,500 --> 02:05:43,900
the roots, beginnings of our
church and what was being told?

2032
02:05:43,900 --> 02:05:48,800
We talk a lot about Adam God
today, and a lot of things that

2033
02:05:48,800 --> 02:05:52,700
Joseph's talked and taught,
didn't get recorded, there's a

2034
02:05:53,000 --> 02:05:55,200
Things that other people said
and there's a lot of

2035
02:05:55,200 --> 02:05:58,200
discrepancy.
All we'll just didn't say that.

2036
02:05:58,400 --> 02:06:02,600
I actually found a gentleman who
had actually dug up a story in

2037
02:06:02,600 --> 02:06:06,700
one of the journals were two men
walked up to Joseph and said,

2038
02:06:06,700 --> 02:06:09,600
teach us more stuff Joseph and
he's out chopping wood is he

2039
02:06:09,600 --> 02:06:13,900
always did and so he's working
and he says, well let's switch

2040
02:06:13,900 --> 02:06:16,500
gears.
You come over here and you chop

2041
02:06:16,500 --> 02:06:19,600
the wood and I'll preach the
sermon that's what they said.

2042
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:21,800
Okay, so there are chopping all
the wood.

2043
02:06:21,900 --> 02:06:24,600
He's over there, and he's
Preaching and is he teaching all

2044
02:06:24,600 --> 02:06:27,600
these Concepts?
He gets to this one part that

2045
02:06:27,600 --> 02:06:34,100
talks about Adam God and so that
was where Joseph taught Adam God

2046
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:39,900
and and you know a lot of the
atom God Doctrine got kind of

2047
02:06:39,900 --> 02:06:45,700
separated with situations.
With Orson Pratt kind of came

2048
02:06:45,700 --> 02:06:50,800
down through that line came down
into Joseph Fielding, Smith with

2049
02:06:51,200 --> 02:06:53,800
Bruce are McConkey.
There was some What is there?

2050
02:06:53,800 --> 02:06:58,500
That whole not liking the atom
God Doctrine.

2051
02:06:58,500 --> 02:07:02,600
It's so simple.
There's an experience where

2052
02:07:02,900 --> 02:07:07,000
Joseph did teach it.
And I think it's important

2053
02:07:07,000 --> 02:07:11,000
because we in the church need to
look at these old doctrines and

2054
02:07:11,100 --> 02:07:14,100
and search them out.
The other thing I wanted to say

2055
02:07:14,100 --> 02:07:18,700
before we conclude is a lot of
fundamentalist found really

2056
02:07:18,700 --> 02:07:24,200
interesting stories.
There was a story that in 1886,

2057
02:07:24,200 --> 02:07:28,100
they called it the visitation
of, with John Taylor of Jesus

2058
02:07:28,100 --> 02:07:32,900
Christ, Joseph Smith, others,
and all that was recorded by by

2059
02:07:32,900 --> 02:07:38,000
L John Nuttall in his journals.
Now, I went back and we tried to

2060
02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:42,500
find those journals.
And in that one Journal that

2061
02:07:42,500 --> 02:07:50,600
contained Me 1986 era is gone.
How did George archives?

2062
02:07:51,400 --> 02:07:55,100
And I know some of the nettle
family, we were trying to find

2063
02:07:55,100 --> 02:07:58,800
it and then we turned around and
couldn't find it anymore.

2064
02:07:59,300 --> 02:08:04,300
And so, I found it online on
eBay one day.

2065
02:08:05,600 --> 02:08:08,000
Just out of the blue, I happen
to look and looking through

2066
02:08:08,000 --> 02:08:10,200
books.
And here's the L, Jon Udell?

2067
02:08:10,200 --> 02:08:13,800
That same book that was right
there, the original and they

2068
02:08:13,800 --> 02:08:16,100
wanted five thousand dollars for
it.

2069
02:08:16,100 --> 02:08:21,700
Who, so I call it the no family.
He calls for five friends.

2070
02:08:22,000 --> 02:08:27,000
He gets to 5,000.
Wow, I'm ready to buy this book

2071
02:08:27,100 --> 02:08:30,100
and and he does all this bad
eBay stuff.

2072
02:08:30,100 --> 02:08:33,300
He's he promised it to us and
then he sold it to this other

2073
02:08:33,500 --> 02:08:35,000
place.
Then I got a hold of him.

2074
02:08:35,000 --> 02:08:39,100
I got his phone number talking
to the guy and he goes well I

2075
02:08:39,100 --> 02:08:43,500
had another person who offered
me way more money than that for

2076
02:08:43,500 --> 02:08:46,600
that book.
And I said, can I ask who it

2077
02:08:46,600 --> 02:08:47,800
wasn't he supposed?
Oh sure.

2078
02:08:47,900 --> 02:08:50,500
There's LDS church.
Oh, geez.

2079
02:08:51,200 --> 02:08:54,900
So you'd think the LDS church
would Get it and put it back in

2080
02:08:54,900 --> 02:08:58,000
their file, you know.
So the whole book is complete.

2081
02:08:58,000 --> 02:09:02,400
The whole set is not there so
that got yanked and so now when

2082
02:09:02,400 --> 02:09:06,100
we reference oh it's me L, Jon
Udell journal and it's in it's

2083
02:09:06,100 --> 02:09:11,600
in the ALDS archives and do you
go there and it's not there.

2084
02:09:11,900 --> 02:09:16,000
And so what started happening
with our family and others was

2085
02:09:16,000 --> 02:09:19,700
that we started seeing things
being pulled off the shelves and

2086
02:09:19,700 --> 02:09:23,600
where nobody has access to those
like, you know, we mentioned,

2087
02:09:23,800 --> 02:09:26,900
Snapper and Phil Davis which are
both friends.

2088
02:09:26,900 --> 02:09:30,100
But one of the things is that
will Joseph never taught

2089
02:09:30,100 --> 02:09:33,200
polygamy and nobody had in this,
he goes well, can you prove

2090
02:09:33,200 --> 02:09:36,200
those Kevin and I said, sure,
but I'm not going to give you

2091
02:09:36,200 --> 02:09:40,600
those references because the
minute we give those references

2092
02:09:40,600 --> 02:09:45,400
out, some gum character and
archives, or whatever takes it

2093
02:09:45,400 --> 02:09:48,300
out of the archives.
And then we can't find it.

2094
02:09:48,300 --> 02:09:51,200
So, there's some of the
discrepancies tapping with

2095
02:09:51,200 --> 02:09:55,200
church archives.
And so, So that's what's hard.

2096
02:09:55,200 --> 02:09:58,700
That's disappointing.
But even Denver Snuffer's, I

2097
02:09:58,700 --> 02:10:02,600
said he called and said your
father has so much information.

2098
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:06,400
We can't even find in the
archives anymore, right?

2099
02:10:07,300 --> 02:10:12,200
So back to thank the heavens for
what, my father has worked in

2100
02:10:12,200 --> 02:10:14,700
and held it.
Progressive work and hopefully

2101
02:10:14,700 --> 02:10:17,100
we continue it on and make it
happen.

2102
02:10:17,500 --> 02:10:20,300
Absolutely.
Well dude, this was fun.

2103
02:10:20,300 --> 02:10:24,200
We should do this again.
Okay, you, if you're up for it

2104
02:10:24,200 --> 02:10:26,200
I'd love to have you on to talk
to the dream on.

2105
02:10:26,500 --> 02:10:29,900
Talk about the dream mine.
Okay, awesome.

2106
02:10:30,300 --> 02:10:33,100
All right, well, that's going to
do it by everybody.