Episode #16: A conversation with Cristina Rosetti, PhD

0:04 Okay. So I told you early on that, this podcast, it was nothing more than a place for me to sit down and talk with people. I found really cool and interesting, this episode was like a dream come true for me. I had the opportunity to sit down with, Christina Rossetti. Now, full disclosure, I'm a huge fan of her work. She has spent her entire academic career, studying, Mormon, fundamentalism her work, is respected by academics and Mormon, fundamentalists alike for work is both. Compromising and fair in our conversation, we cover, how she became interested in Mormon fundamentalism, how she was able to gain access to so many different types of fundamentalist, where she thinks Mormon fundamentalism. Is ultimately going and her experiences working to pass the bill here in Utah. That would ultimately lead to the decriminalization of plural marriage.

0:51 That's next on this edition of the Mormon, Renegade podcast. So, I just want to take a moment to thank you. The Listener, when I started this podcast I wasn't sure if anyone would really listen. Now to my surprise, this thing has taken on a life of its own and that's all due to you the listener, spending your time here with me, and it means a great deal to me now, as a husband and father, I'm keenly aware of how important time is. It feels like there's just never enough of it. So when you are spending your time here, listening to this podcast, I feel a responsibility to never waste your time in that Spirit as this podcast has grown. I feel like I need to do you the listener. Justice, I want to continue to produce good content and upgrade the audio quality that takes better equipment and better software and that all takes money. Now, I've tried to advertise, but you'd be surprised. There's not a lot of people want to advertise on a Mormon fundamentalist podcast.

1:45 I know surprising right? So I now humbly ask that if you have means that you consider a small donation to the podcast, so I can make those investments in equipment and software. If you feel like that's something that you can do, go check out, Mormon rent. Okay.com and hit the Donate tab if you're not in that position to do. So I completely understand. We're all squeezed right now with high gas, prices and high inflation. So even if you can't, please keep listening and maybe keep the podcast in your prayer, so we can continue to grow produce. Good content and better audio quality. Thank you. Your listing to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Welcome back to the Mormon Renegade podcast as always you can get ahold of me either by email at Mormon Renegade at gmail.com.

2:59 You can also get a hold of me on Instagram and Twitter and getter under the handle. Mormon Renegade. Also we have a website up and that's Mormon Renegade.com, so go check that out. So today on the podcast, I have Buddy that I have wanted to talk to you since day one. It's a little embarrassing but I'm probably damn near a fanboy overworked and and that is Christina Rossetti. So Christina, I can't tell you how how excited I am that, you're here. I really, I'm just super excited for this. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you.

3:45 About fundamentalism. My favorite thing to talk about, it has to be okay real quick. You grew up in California. How do you get to like, not only do I want to know about fundamentalism? I want to be like the go-to in academic circles on fundamentalism. The question of the ages, how did I get here? Right, right, I actually asked myself that regularly. Do you rub me? Oh yeah, I mean oh yeah. And the answer is You know, I have a running joke with my friends that I mean the answer is I read Richard Bushman rough Stone Rolling, okay? And I didn't really know what a Mormon was And I read that my first year of grad school, it was assigned to me by the woman who became my advisor.

4:31 I'm Andalusia because I was interested in the 19th century and I was interested in communitarianism. So United order is like a logical thing to look at. And she assigns me rough Stone Rolling and I was I don't know if you've read it I'm sure you might have. Yep. So, I opened it at my parents kitchen table and I read it in two days. I know that's a big boy. It is a big book. I have. So I mean I have told Richard Bushman, the story now twice. But I read, I, I couldn't put it down. I needed to know everything about Joseph Smith, I needed to know everything about this idea of restoration. This religion that people are willing to do anything for. And it was so foreign to me as someone who Wasn't like, didn't, you know, you know, Mormon say I know the church is true as someone who has never been able to say that sentence. I was just like, what is this?

5:32 And so I, you know, I went to the library, I went on Amazon and I bought, I got through both Avenues every book on Mormonism. I was just like, I need to know everything and I mean, I obviously don't know everything, but I got, I mean, I tried and my advisor told me, you know, you want to study living people. Why don't you go to a church or an Institute or something? But there's a building right on campus. and I told the story a lot that I went in and I was disappointed in a way because it wasn't rough Stone Rolling, right? And I mean, of course it wasn't like, what did I, what did they think was gonna happen? I was gonna walk in everyone's living United order and like, living the living polygamy, like, no. But it felt like this jarring moment of, like, I don't know what a Mormon is like what is a Mormon And you know, long story short through a series of events. I met fundamentalists and I met something, akin to rough Stone Rolling in the fundamentalist movement and I learned about, you know, Joseph muster who I'm so honored to get to write his biography now.

6:44 And I just learned about these people that are trying so hard to live a life. Like this book that captivated me when I was just like a brand-new shiny grad student, Wow. So yeah, you really got thrown in on the deep end. I mean, you went from zero to rough Stone Rolling that's going to do it, right? And then you try to follow that up with visiting some, some mainstream Mormons and then all of a sudden, you're like, well, this looks nothing like that. But oh yeah, to be to be fair though, I can kind of identify with that, right? Because I'm a convert to the LDS church, right? And I'm also a pretty voracious reader, so, I get in and I, you know, And to be fair, I probably the seeds of fundamentalism were sown even before I was baptized because our local Pastor, who my mom had a sign up with he when he found out I was going to go LDS. He's like well you need to read this and he gave me excerpts from the Journal of discourses.

7:48 So I take it to my missionaries and it blows their mind and then eventually it works. Its way up to the Old State patriarch who's heard about all this and has obscured. Your books. And so, I think those seeds were always there even from my initial, but I can remember those feelings of disappointment at times, right? Especially when I heard stuff that was not quite factually correct from the pulpit on Sunday in an LDS Ward, right? I'm like, hmm. But is it though for reals? And it might be one of the, I mean, one of the like it's so true. That one man's anti-mormon literature is another man's proselyting handle. Absolutely like anti-mormon literature is just Mormon fundamentalism. But yeah.

8:34 Did you like did, you know? I mean, I remember being done in Manti. The miracle pageant with a group of fundamentals missionaries and the evangelicals looked at that and was like, did you know that Brigham Young taught? Adam is God and they were just like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. We believe that still and like the Evangelical proselyte like didn't know what to do. With this kid that was just like, yeah. And I still believe that. Yeah, it's ya know. I I've often said that that the, the best solution to the folks who, you know, protest outside at Temple Square during conference or when they were holding the pageant was have a group of fundamentals down there because I was just shut it down, way fast. I mean they got nothing at that point right? When you're like oh yeah no and I totally buy it too well. I cook Line and Sinker they're like Well he'll there, I got nothing left, I'm going home.

9:29 So yeah, yeah, yeah I mean yeah and I'm in similar, I mean, I'm still friends with my Institute teacher on Facebook. I hope he hasn't muted me. But yeah, I mean, it was a, it was, it was very similar to your journey of going LDS. Forgotten then being like wait, there's more? Yeah, yeah. There was although I kind of got tossed into the deep into. Like I said, I I got, I was practicing plural marriage. Before I had done an in-depth, study of Adam God, or any of the other stuff before I knew about, you know, how, just how significant Temple changes were. And so, this whole I'm trying to go through and get my bearings in the yeah, no, I can totally it's impressive that you digested, rough Stone Rolling, and then we're like, give me more. That's, that's nuts to this.

10:20 One was Magic World View. That was okay by Quinn, right? Yep. Yep. Yeah, so you get into it and you're in college at any point while you were in college. Did you think? Oh yeah, this is something. I'm going to keep going down. I mean, was there a point at which you realize you were kind of hooked? Oh yeah it was really I mean so this was in grad school so I like had to come up with pretty quickly what I was going to study for the rest of my life and and I I mean I jumped into a Ph.D program really young. I would have done things differently in hindsight, but you know, I was 23. And I had to figure out what the rest of my life was going to be and I read rough Stone Rolling.

11:02 I was like, well, I guess this is it, I guess I'll study Mormonism forever. It was I mean I wouldn't I wouldn't do anything. I wouldn't do that any differently but yeah, I mean I got I got there and I knew I knew that that was what I was going to be and I had a lot of ideas for what that would look like. It has gone very different. Now originally I was studying living people but No, the 1930s to 60s are a wild time. And so that's kind of really been my focus now but I mean there's also like just so much about the doctrinal development of fundamentalism that people don't know. And just like, you know, everyone kind of Associates fundamentals in with polygamy but there's so much more and so it just became a love of mine of like doing deep.

11:48 Dives into really particular doctrines that people are not familiar with. No, you raised a good point, that that Plural marriage is a real small part of fundamental that I shouldn't say small part. It's a huge part but there is so much more right? And I remember as I'm certain is, I'm sorting through it. I remember looking at both my wife Amber and the other woman he was with us at the time thinking we got a lot to do. Only. I didn't say shoot I was a lot more explicit. I was like there is so much here we don't, we don't even begin to understand and so I could. Yeah, no, you're right 30s. 60s is a wild time, so you get you kind of get, you know, figure out. Okay.

12:39 This is what I want to do. My next question is you've been able to gain just unprecedented access to a lot of different groups and people? How did you manage that? Because by Nature fundamentalist, I've noticed are very cautious, right? At best cautious, if not closed off. So how were you able to approach? That's One thing for a guy like me who's, like, look, I want to know more and I believe this, can you teach me, right? That's that's a different thing than saying, you know, maybe I want to do an ethnography on you or, you know, I want to, you know, I just want to study a. How did you gain that access? That's a really good question.

13:23 And I mean, I think there's a lot of I think it's a lot of moving parts. I mean, I met members of the Peterson group who, when I first, I mean they're very Line. Now they have missionaries. When I first met them, I would say they were less online, but they were still pretty open like they were accepting converts. They were interested in people joining. They wanted to tell people about the group. So they were some of the first people I met. Now a lot of people meet them. Of course, a lot of people meet fundamentalists and never get, you know, invited to Nevada, right? I think. I mean, I think the big thing is I never I was always very honest with what I was doing.

14:08 I know there was never, and I think, I mean, of course they had to believe me, people had to believe me that I was honest about what I was doing, but I never and still to this day. Like I've never lied about my intentions or what I was doing. I always was just like I have no intention of joining but I think there's multiple stories here that the world needs to know and I'd like to tell him if you would trust me to do that. And of course people again had to be willing to Let me come in their house and meet their children and like talk to them. And that's scary when there's like this random Gentile, girl, from California. I like showing up at your home, but I think I think it was a mix of just.

14:50 And honestly, I think the other thing is people don't ask too and that sounds strange. But I mean, I don't think most people are like, oh, your fundamentals, Mormon, can I come over that sounds wild, but I spent a good portion of my life. I've just asking people if I could come over to their house and ask them like really personal questions, which again, not everyone wants that, but some people were willing to. And so I think the big thing is I was willing to just be like, hey, I can I come over and I did that with a few groups, some of them you know turned into friendships others didn't, but I think I was I was honest about what I was doing.

15:33 I was willing to ask to come over and people were willing to like Boyle. I wasn't gonna do anything to harm their families and on the contrary I mean my experiences with fundamentalist led me to lobby for us be 10 to the bill that decriminalized pulling in Utah. And so I think I think my continued actions show that I wasn't a jerk at least I hope not right. You know, know and and to be honest, that's one of the things I've always respected about about the work you did do, is that and continue to do is that while you're not going to sugarcoat anything, you're going to just kind of call balls and Strikes as you see. Right and I can kind of get not kind I can definitely get with with that idea because let's face it. I mean, I would rather have someone like yourself out there, trying to tell this story then maybe somebody who has an ax to grind, right?

16:32 There's enough out there with with what Jeff has done to make the lives of fundamentalist hard as it is. So that's one of the reasons I respect. A lot of what you've done is because I felt like it was fair. So in this process of gaining access to these groups was and you don't have to name names, was there ever a point at which you thought? Where maybe you were stonewalled a little bit? Yeah. Yeah I mean and I mean, there's groups that I never asked to study. I mean I don't I don't study the flds. That's kind of a blanket. Something I don't do. I mean I taught you have to talk about them when you talk about the history but I I don't say them, they don't talk to Outsiders, you know, most of them. There's a select group that do, but most flds do not talk to Outsiders.

17:26 And so that was something I just knew like, was not going to happen. So I didn't try. There was one group I did meet with. A man who leads it but, you know, it, it didn't feel like he wanted to continue talking to me for whatever reason, I mean, you know. And that's if people don't want to continue talking to me, I don't really press for it, but there's definitely been groups that are more closed off. And for, and fair, right, I mean, this is a religion and Mormon. Fundamentalism is a marginalized religious tradition. It's a minority tradition, and it's a criminalized religious This is not a religion that you can risk having a cop show up, and take your kids because that has happened, many times in the history of this religion, so for good reason. Yeah, there's definitely been people that don't want to talk to me have waited in any of that field while in any of that in any of your field, research, did you ever feel like, oh hell, I shouldn't be where I'm at right now. Like maybe you were a little bit endangered. All.

18:36 I wouldn't say danger. I mean, people who know me and love me and who looked at situations from the outside might be like, no, that wasn't a good idea. I don't think I've ever felt in danger. Did I feel uncomfortable? Yes, I think that's probably a better way to say. Okay, what was as you're doing this research and you're talking to all these different individuals, right? Families, groups, What was what were some of the things that shocked you that stood out to you that maybe you weren't prepared for? I mean, the hardest one is I wasn't prepared to. I wasn't prepared to become friends with people and not because I didn't think I would but just because, you know, like you're in anthropology classes and you learn about you just go in, you get your data and you leave and anthropology textbooks, fail to remind you that you can become friends with people at any point. I think juncture here.

19:35 Decide that you're friends with people. And so I became friends with a lot of people who I mean I would consider them friends, I would hope they would call me the same and I became friends with a lot of people who left fundamentalism, which is a painful place to be. If you grew up in the some of these groups and then you leave. And so I think the hardest part ultimately was hearing stories that are hard stories that are abusive and painful I mean fundamentalism. For all the things that, you know, I'm again, good friends with a lot of good fundamentalist, polygamist people, but for every one of those stories I also have stories that are really hard and really abusive, and in many cases, violent and I wasn't, I don't think I was prepared to have to sit through that and sit through hearing a lot of those stories and becoming friends with people who went through really horrendous situations.

20:30 I've talked very openly that one of my good friends died. He was his name was right Jeff's, and he died a few years ago and I wasn't prepared to have to do that, right? Like, you don't think when you decide to study group of people, you don't think that you're gonna end up at a funeral at some point, but sometimes you do. And so I wasn't prepared for that part of studying, a group of people is having that group of people, not. I mean Mormon, the Mormon fundamentalist I know are not just subjects to me right there. People that I'm friends with. That I talk to that, you know, I love so many of the women that I've gotten to know and so I wasn't prepared for what that comes with a lot of the time and a lot of the time.

21:14 It's not it's not fun, right? So there's two things I want to dovetail that response off of because because I find it interesting. How is it that you are able to event you know, become friends with folks but yet still Still be able to cause you, I would think you'd have to maintain a certain arm's length distance. So you could tell the truth, right? Like I have a good friend, right? Not a Mormon fundamentalist. I'll go to the mat for that guy. Every day of the week, right? Until he proves me wrong. I'm like, that's my guy. I'm, you know, the, the typical ride and I kind of guy, right.

21:54 How is it? You can can, can have that that friendship and yet maintain that level of I don't know, almost that scientific view where you're just studying. How does that work? I don't, I mean, my advisor. She has joked that, like, I went into the field and never came home. Okay. And that's true. It's true. And I mean, there are there absolutely cons to that. I think one of the things that I, when I kind of think of my work that I appreciate about the work, is that That I do is I don't, I'm not gonna lie for you and I'm not, I'm not gonna like not tell a story because you don't want, like, I don't have those Investments. Now, if that means, you know, if this is a situation of like, I mean, I don't know.

22:50 I can't think of an example without would be different. But I mean, the law of Purity article that we were talking about off, air is probably the best example that the law of Purity is not talked about in a lot of fundamental Most groups its history is not talked about. It's not talked about and I heard about it and I was like, well, I'm going to tell the story and I got it. I got a lot of eyebrow reasons. I think of people being like what and I was like, well, I'm gonna do it anyway and I mean, I wouldn't have done it in a way that was hurtful for anything. No one said, please don't and that would've been a different conversation. No one said don't do that, but I was like, I wasn't willing to like be part of this, like, not talking about something.

23:32 Just because I noticed no one was talking about it. And so I wrote about the love Purity and in and it was just fine which I've read the article, it's a great art. I mean, it's it's you did a great job in it II. Don't I don't see an issue with it actually a funny story about it. I was at the BYU Maxwell Institute for a summer seminar on religion and Science and we had to write about something sciency and so I was like oh I want to write about this thing which I'm sure you and, you know, actually I invite I invited Ben Shafer. I invited him to because I did a public talk up for the Maxwell Institute, on my research and I invited Ben, I mean, I was very open about what I was. I didn't pretend I wasn't writing about this and so at the Joseph F Smith building good presented on the wall Purity which was an experience.

24:27 But I remember when I first heard about it I was Driving to Tonopah with the missionaries the the Peterson group missionaries. And the reason I decided this was something I wanted to write about which I think is representative of the question you asked is they were just I was, I was interested in the temple recommend, how they do that. And one of them, he was kind of a new missionary and he was just like going over the stuff and he was like, oh, and you keep a lot of Purity. And I noticed the other two were kind of like, But no, what are you doing? Oh, and I was like, oh, what's that? And I thought and I was like, oh, is that just the way that you say, the law of Chastity is not the same thing and one of them was like, no, you're going to have to ask a woman in the group and I was like I was like and I'm not of course, like the more this car ride is going.

25:21 The more was like, well now I need to know everything like now I really want to know and so we get there. And I'm staying with this was my first time ever going out there. No, this was my second time going out there. So the woman that I stayed with she, you know, knew me we had had conversations. She's great. And she was like, cleaning up after dinner, and I was like, hey, can I ask you something? What's the law of Purity? And I thought she was gonna drop the enchilada sauce is holding and Like, who told you about this? And I was like a missionary. And so, I mean, she was a great idea because I, again, I didn't know what this was.

26:08 I was just, like innocently, like, asking anyone who would answer about this thing that I again, I didn't know that I was asking about people's sex life, like I didn't know that, that's what I was doing, she was a great sport. She, you know, told me the Basin of the doctrine and which for those who don't know, is a doctor. And that comes from the master line, about sex during procreation and gestation sex during gestation and lactation periods. And I was like, well I need to know everything about this now. And so I found out everything about it which was great because I mean, I was able I gave it to a few people. I talked to a few people and I know of at least a couple women who were interested to know the history of the doctrine that they, you know, are part of a group that practices it to my knowledge, the It was the only group that does for. I mean generally the AUB has not and I actually talked to you on at a book signing for Craig posture and Miriam Watson's book.

27:13 Mary Ann well like her husband was there and she was like, Christina wrote about the love Purity and he was like, oh no I mean, he's great. He's you know, like all these people in this story are great, but It was just like this moment of, like, who's talking to you about this. Like you're not. You're a gent like who is talking to you about this like in detail enough for you to write a book like an article about it? But I think that's kind of Representative is that like I was always where I hope that I was always very kind and asking about questions. I was always curious. I was not malicious and asking, but I was also like going to find out the history. Yeah they're right.

27:56 And and let's let's and Good on those folks for talking to you, right? Because if you have to go, look for it, who knows what you're going to find, right? I mean, you could have found, I'm sure there are all sorts of things out there that that, you know, could have phrased it in accurately or had an axe to grind or whatever. So, at least good on them for talking to you about it. I mean, one of the things that was so interesting. I mean I'll plug a few people who are great and while I reached out to an wild, she's like a, you know, an old Woman in the fundamentalist movement, was married to still talk Kraut. And so, like, my asking her was probably weird, but she was that she was great. And she gave me a really tiny white book called The Higher law of Chastity.

28:44 Published by gems publishing that talked a little bit about it. She was great in helping me with that. And then, if anyone's interested in a lot of Purity, real already drooling, all red sister, she went hard for the doctrine like if there's an apologist, For the law of Purity, it is real, all red. She wrote a book called polluted fountains about, like all of the disastrous polluted practices in like dating and marriage. And she is ride or die but she was ride or die for the laws of Purity. So if anyone's interested in like the primary sources, real all, read your girl, really, I didn't even know that book existed but now I want to go read it. So So, all right.

29:34 My transition into something, a little heavier. Okay. And With the, under the banner of Heaven coming out and the one about Jeff's on Netflix and I feel like there's almost this fundamentalist moment, right? Where as fundamentalist, we either get to get up now and tell the story or we're going to forever be dictated to by what's going on right now. You talk about seeing and I know this is a hard question and I apologize. But you talked about seeing hearing about violence within these families in your opinion. Do you think that Mormon fundamentalism? Because of its very nature, or whatever. Do you think it?

30:30 It's a violent religion. So to speak. No. I mean is it inherently violent? Like I mean that's I mean what I've told a few people about this is I think Mormonism, kind of right now. Owns the like drama genre of TV but Catholicism has owned the horror genre for a while, right? And I mean, the reality and I'm very open about my own tradition is Roman Catholicism has a problem with sex abuse. I'm not going to pretend, that's not true. It would be a joke if I looked at you and pretended that that wasn't true.

31:12 Does that mean that all Catholicism is that no? Does that mean it's there? And I should talk about it. Yeah, and I think Mormon fundamentalism needs to do the same thing. I agree with you, 100%. I And part of it. I find it. One of those things where I kind of get where where it comes from, right. Not the violence part, but the part about let's just stay quiet and let's stay under the radar and maybe maybe at best. They'll, you know, laugh at us a little bit, right? The issue with that. Is that when you do that, you're kind of forcing yourself back into the Shadows. And it's in the shadows that all that nasty crap keeps happening over and over and over.

31:58 And I'm I tend and granite. I'm a Libertarian by Nature, right? I tend to be very like, you do you, bro? Throw those doors open. Let's talk to people. Let's if they're what. If there was one stereotype about Mormon fundamentalist, right? I've never met an uncle. I've never met a non libertarian, one really? Really. I mean I'm sure there are but yes and I have probably I guess you probably kind of have to have that in order to do, do some of the stuff that we want to do. I get that. But yeah. No, I tend to be like, just throw those doors open, let's have the conversation because if we as fundamentalist don't have this conversation and we're not involved. We're going to let everybody else. Didn't dictate to us what it is and I mean that's why I like, when like, when Kody Brown and his family went on TLC. Like that's hard, that's hard.

32:59 But they were like, we're going to tell our story. I mean, the same with with Joe Gardner and his family, the darker family, like they were like, well we're going to we're going to be us in public and we're going to tell our story and we're going to be who we are and having family and I mean unique Foster and his family. Donna, The Rock. Like I think, I think that's important. I think fundamentalist Mormons to the at, to the extent that it's safe for their family. Of course, I mean in certain States, it's safer than others, of course, and Utah. Now, as of 2020, that is safe to do. But I mean, there was a lot of discourse online about Mormons should be telling Mormon stories.

33:40 Those people who are saying that we're LDS but fundamentalist can and should Tell their story for sure. Warren told a very loud story and other people need to now, tell a story. Yeah. No, I agree, totally. And that's and, and I think that just helps to dispel all the rumors, all the crap, that's not true. And then and this is where I lose some. Folks, it also may be causes us as fundamentalist to reflect on ourselves a little bit going. Okay. Is this is this particularly right? I mean should we be looking at, is this a tradition? Is this a Doctrine? What is this? And then you know maybe have some honest conversations with ourselves as well.

34:26 I think that that's vitally needed as well at this juncture. Yeah, yeah. And I mean I think especially I think that's one of the reasons. I'm so interested in like the history of certain doctrines in fundamentalism. I mean, the priesthood ban is something that Moroni Jessup and are going to talk about it. Sunstone about when did it become a fundamental like when did that? Come something part and parcel to the fundamentalist movement, most doctrines and fundamentalism. I don't want to say most, but many doctors and fundamentalism. Don't just, I mean, they're not these lot, like fundamentalism has this this belief and like, doing exactly what Rick, no one is really doing everything. Brigham Young did, right?

35:07 Everyone is doing some variation. I mean, something like placement marriage which Warren became notorious for people are Watching this on keep sweet right now and placement marriage doesn't emerge as something. They're really talking about until the 1940s. When they start happening under John, why Barlow? This isn't a long-standing tradition. And so, I think having those hard conversations of what is the history of what we do. Why do we do what we do? Can it change Panic? Not, I think those are hard conversations but there that's a healthy thing to do for any group of people. Yeah, I think a little bit of self-reflection goes a long way and and have some honest conversations and those are tough to have, right?

35:53 I mean and to be honest with you, not everybody in fundamentalism is ready to have that conversation. Because if it's a public conversation being in the public isn't, I isn't really what they want to do, right? I mean a lot of these folks still bear. I don't know those those societal scars from things like short Creek and that sort of thing, which really, you know, drove home. This fact you know you be quiet and you know you keep this under wraps or you know we're going to get our kids are going to our endanger sort of stuff. So I think it's it's it's one of those things just out of curiosity. What was your thought on under the banner of Heaven? I liked it.

36:40 I know that that's a controversial. Take, I liked it. I mean, I liked it. I so I don't watch a lot of TV. I watch a lot of really trash TV. I watch 90 day fiancé pretty exclusively, so I don't watch a lot of like good TV. So when everyone was talking about it's not written while I'm like, I don't know. I have no point of Reference. I literally watched people dating across the world, like I don't have a point of reference for good television, but I was interested in the story. It told about Mormonism and I thought it told the story of multiple mormonism's really well. I think especially a lot of people were kind of like what, add up the sound like six.

37:25 When Dan goes to meet John Bryant, then there's baptism scene and there's this like, like scandalous kiss and a hot tub, and everyone is like, what the hell. And I remember watching it and I was like, Like they did John Bryant really well. Right. And so and I mean and they could have done it a lot more salacious if they had shown his Temple endowment, right? And so I was impressed with the way that that's Mormonism in the show. So it is Ron Lafferty, but so is Brenda and I was really, I was really happy with the way. I mean I really love the finale how they told Brenda story as this heroic. As a one, Mighty and strong up in her own, right? And so I really liked how they told the story Mormonism. You know, the big critique, is it argues that Mormonism is inherently violent.

38:17 I don't like the book. I don't like krakauer's book. And so, I understand the concern there, but I think it, I mean, I think it told the story. Well, If you don't like the truth crime genre off, you're not gonna like it but you also don't have to like it. You're allowed to not like it, you know. I, I watched every episode and the one I was most nervous about is when they were showing the temple endowment, right? That one. I was like, oh, here we go. This is where it's going to go horribly horribly wrong and to be fair, I felt like they did. It is Tastefully, as you could do it, right.

38:57 I mean they They didn't go into great detail. They went into enough and let's face it now with, you know, guys, like Mike Norton that go out and they record the ceremony and put it on online. I mean, if we're looking to try to keep that Under Wraps, I get it, but it's out there. So I felt like they did a good job and and, and showing it. But yet being respectful, I like how they did, you know, integrate some history in there, right? Right down to the dream. Mind they mentioned the Dream Mining in and Episode and I thought, you know that's you know yeah I felt like they did all right with it. My biggest concern. Oh go ahead. I was I was gonna say I mean I know I'm biased in that one of my one of my best friend's was a historical consultant for it.

39:42 But what I think a lot of people didn't realize is the other whose for our consultant Roy Williams. He investigated the AED. So this isn't this is these aren't people who like don't know, Honda mentalism, I mean pright was interested in joining when he got home from his LDS mission. So I think that's also kind of an interesting component. Onan is that these are people who like were at least at one point compelled, by by fundamentalism Right. Yeah, I know. I felt like all in all it was fairly well done, my biggest fear. And it was, it was a concern.

40:24 I never anticipated having. If I'm being honest with you, it was some family or some guy sitting on his couch, who's been a devout member of the LDS church, his whole life, and he starts getting obscure, Mormon, Doctrine thrown at him and he doesn't know what's happening, right? And, and that may be causes a faith crisis because I don't want to see the LDS church go away. I really enjoyed my time there and that was my biggest fear is that they were going to hear all these obscure. Mormon old-school doctrines that they didn't know what to do with. And so I had an episode with Ben Shafer, where we talked a little bit about that, right?

41:08 And felt like and again it was one of those times where I felt like maybe this is the time. Now as fundamentalist, we got to step forward and just kind of be like, don't lose your crap. Let's sit down and let's talk about About this a little bit before before you make a rash decision because even though I felt like it did it did a fairly good job. There's so much. There's so much to those doctrines that just aren't talked about because you don't have time, right? I mean, even though it's a six-episode series, you don't have time to do a deep dive on. Mormon Doctrine to sort that out. No, I mean I do think what? I mean two of the scenes that really struck me as being perfectly done and they're small. The first one was, when Dan gets a copy of The Peacemaker and he like finds it as like a thrift store or something. And how many people do we know who find a copy of Truth magazine?

42:03 Like some used bookstore and encounters fundamentalism and joins, right? I mean that is a tale as old as time. That is a especially in like the 50s and 60s, I mean and 80 is right? I mean, the story I wanted to unlock the I mean that is a tale as old as time and so how they depicted that I thought was incredible but the other one and it stick it is it sticks with me was when Ron no damp one of them, Dan Rahn who leaves his disciplinary Council and he had just gotten excommunicated and he looks at the camera and smiles and The moment of, oh, you have nothing to lose now, right?

42:47 Like, and I think, and I was full. And when I saw that I was like, I hope because I get asked a lot, I get asked a lot by all these people, what like, how can we stop people from joining fundamentalism and my answer is always do next. Communicate them, right? Like, don't turn them into, don't turn them into fundamentalist, right? If you don't want them to be it. And so the way they did, Pick a time and I don't want that sounds like I'm saying I was excommunicated becomes a violent fundamentals, that is absolutely not true. Joseph mustard was excommunicated and became not a violent fundamentalist, but that was a really significant moment of. Oh, like his membership in the LDS church was the last thing like tethering him to any kind of reality Yeah, it was the last firewall right?

43:36 Before he went and did what he did. And and to be fair, not everybody that you 99.9 percent of people who get excommunicated, don't turn into murderous religious zealots right that. But, but if your goal is to prevent fundamentalism, you're 100% right? Don't don't turn them into fundamentalisms by by throwing them out. And and that's the one thing I remember from my days, in the LDS church that I got. There's only one time I got called into the Bishops office. Before I went in, to say I'm done. And that was because I had I taught some stuff out of the Journal of discourses and it was pretty mild. It was pretty mild.

44:19 Right. But I was I was given this talk and that old steak patriarch, I went to him and I was like you got anything on. Like I can't remember what it was but I think it was like on the establishment as iron. And she's like, oh yeah. Come on in and he shows me his journal of discourses I'm like, oh this is great stuff right? And I get up there I only been a member for about five years and I'm like just spouting it off and I just start seeing shifted, you know, people shifting and then you know I kind of glanced behind me in the Bishops like smiling. But you can tell there's this look of absolute horror. Like, don't go any further please just stop. Just stop, right? Oh no, and it was the establishment of Zion. It wasn't even like the name.

45:03 Adams. Why? I've no it wasn't. It was nothing like that, it was. But I mentioned jod in Ho man, you could almost hear a collective gasp, right? And I'm like, well I'm in it now. So I'm just going to keep going right? Like get this out. Oh no. And that was that brother in Christ I could have told you. Right. Right well and I remember I did have I did have a talk with that old patriarch whereas like you kind of set me up bro. Right? Like you, you kind of you can't. He's like you handled it really well kid. You did you did good. I'm like you suck. I appreciate the time you took with me but you saw it, right? But what do you like LDS through and through or was it LDS with a wink and a nod?

45:53 Yeah, yeah, because like what I mean, what's take patriarchy, is handing, someone Journal of discourses to teach out of so I'm trying not to give away too much here because I never want to put anyone in any compromising positions. But we were in a very small rural area, not in Utah and so where you say we remember that time where, you know, hey, this isn't rough Stone Rolling or this isn't what you read about in some ways, it kind of was it times where I was at, right? Where it would get real close, right? And it was just because I think it was this tight-knit group of LDS, folks who had a lot of old folks in it, and It was like the old plural marriage thing where it be like we don't practice that it's a true principle right kind of a thing, right?

46:54 And so it was it was a lot like that right where you couldn't get anyone to say it from the stand, but if you went to somebody's house and they were more than willing to have those conversations with you, Or like the the big tell is when the way that, you know, is when people are like Isis pain, the president of the church Nelson, is the president of the Church of the Church of? Yep. I see what you're doing there. Do you think he's the president of the priesthood vote silence? Only okay. Okay. Yep, yep. Oh yeah, no, I I in some ways I'm very thankful that I joined the LDS church where I was right?

47:36 Because I A lot of older men who were willing to have real honest conversations. So in that was back in 95, right? And so when the internet gets huge and really 95, the internet was just coming online. I mean you're talking about dial up with y'all to just get online right? And the pictures would load race. Lowly about two thousand three or four is the first time I can really remember the internet with a lot of salacious material. Material and to me, I felt almost inoculated. I guess would be the right term. I didn't know how to phrase it them, but I'm like, well, of course, that's, that's their right. I mean, when people got freaked out because they found out Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

48:20 I was like, well yeah, I mean It's been there the whole time, and I had to, I had to tone that back. I remember I was in an Elders Quorum president. See once where I was like, you didn't know that, bro. Like, we're you been right? And so, I realized I had dial that back a little bit and be like, okay, not everyone. Got got the memo I guess so, but I remember, I remember a woman and I remember a woman Institute Saying that polygamy started when the Pioneers were crossing the Plains. And I was like, oh yeah. The other one that I like is when they say that polygamy was around just because all a bunch of the men got killed, right? That's, that's that's the other favorite when I was like mmmm? No, not according to everything else. I know, I'm also not according to 132 right? Look, 132 paints a very Clear picture of. What celestial marriage is right? I don't know.

49:23 I mean I've also been hanging out with fundamentals for too long but I'm like well what else do you think Celestial marriage is if not the principal right? Absolutely. So yeah, I yeah, I feel very fortunate that I was raised if you will, in my LDS upbringing in that small town, because there were just people willing to talk about all the stuff that you normally wouldn't get. Um, I want to go back to maybe kind of your your, your academic career here. A little bit as you're sorting through some of this. I imagine you come across all sorts of stuff as far as teachings, right. How, what, what kind of process do you use to determine what's tradition and what's Doctrine?

50:14 I mean, you're asking a girl who's a Roman Catholic built on the twin pillars. Scripture and tradition. And so that's a hard that's a hard one. I mean I You know, I don't believe in the truth claims of Mormonism broadly defined and so I don't have an investment in that like a personal investment in the same way that a lot of people do. And so and also I mean, that coupled with my being Catholic and like being part of a religion that like, goes hard with tradition, I don't look at tradition negatively. And so it's hard to parse out why that would matter or what matters, I mean, but the other thing No, I guess to kind of just say, it doesn't matter which sounds bad but we're missing is also a religion that has like the windows of Heaven are open.

51:07 Profits are still speaking. The cannon in a lot of groups, the cannon is still being added to so it doesn't matter if it's just tradition of the Prophet said it, right? I mean something technically right in Mormon in Mormonism, something rulon Allred said math, there is just as much as something Brigham Young said like technically right? That's right. That is supposed to be the A idea. Like if the priesthood is unchanged, if the priesthood is the power of God on Earth, if it is how the world was created, if it is the power by which you know that the sea was split. Then what it shouldn't be different. And so in my mind, when I look at that I'm like well. Maybe it's tradition but also rulon Allred said it right, right?

51:54 And I mean, the harder question, the harder question than is, which prophet said it that ends up being the harder one because if Jim harms, didn't said it, Less people are going to give that credibility than if rulon Allred did which is going to get less care than it. Joseph muster said it. Right? No, that makes sense. I could see that. So with that said, where it's hard to parse out what's tradition, and what's Doctrine. Because as we were talking before, right, about having those internal debates, there's got to be some way where that, that definition can be had. Because if, if we can't separate tradition from Doctrine, we're kind of in some trouble.

52:38 Right. Cuz then there's all sorts of things that we can say. Well yeah, we do that because we've always done that and then you become the great an abominable and you are. Welcome to join us. It's great. I'll keep that in mind. That that that's the extent of my missionary work for my people. That's awesome. Well, that's pretty mild compared to two other things. I've seen so good on you. Where do you see fundamentalism heading? Because I do feel like fundamentalisms at a Crossroads. I feel like we're in a moment now where there's some decisions that have to be made I, I see the independent movement growing for many reasons.

53:27 I think that's a hard but I think, I think independent, Mormon fundamentalism. I don't want to like put my stamp of approval on one thing or another but independent, Mormon fundamentalism. I think makes sense historically given, what fundamentalism was originally trying to do? The Council of friends was pretty gung-ho on, not starting a church. I mean, and whether or not things change at a certain point in the church wasn't apostasy that can be debated among different groups. So I think their idea has a historic grounding but this new Were focus on establishing churches, doesn't.

54:08 And I think a lot of that is keeping a church together is hard. I mean, it is like, what? And so, because of that, because of people like Warren because of concern for how how power Works historically. In a lot of these groups, I see the independent movement growing. I see if families are going to be Come fundamentalist, I kind of, for see them deciding to just kind of do it on their own. I think if you read, you know, like the Wooly School of the prophets, which I don't, I mean, I don't know. I guess most people aren't reading those like the minutes from the school of the prophets. I don't know if you're going to do that.

54:48 I mean, we're like if you're going to read Like master in that era, I think a conclusion would be to just become an independent practice polygamy. You know, try to do consecration with your neighbor, I don't know. However, Independence are doing it nowadays. The downside is, you don't have a temple yet but I think that's kind of going to be the way that fundamentalism old timidly goes. Now, what does that mean for Centennial Park? What does that mean for that stock United Brethren? I don't know. No, I mean, I think they'll, I think they'll continue to exist. Of course. This isn't me like casting, uh, you're gonna destroy her, I don't think that's true. But I think, if I were to have to say, what people are going to be gravitating toward, I think independent fundamentalism is kind of what I foresee happening, right? And you get, do you get a feeling from your research? Are those movements growing?

55:45 I mean is, is the independent route growing? I mean, are there people leaving the LDS church? Are they leaving other groups to to be independent? Is there anything that you can see in your research? That would point that out one way or another? I mean, that's a hard question because I think independent fundamentalism in a lot of ways is still Is still in the 1930s and 40s in that in just in the fact that people don't feel like they have to leave the church to be an independent fundamentalist, right? In the 1920s, 30s 40s. People aren't leaving the LDS church. They don't get forced out there. Just doing their like, meeting with the priesthood Council, but then they're also going to church on Sunday. And like, you just don't ask questions and it just you just do your thing.

56:34 And so I think that the families that go that way aren't necessarily leaving the church. I know families that and people who until they for one reason or another have to leave for a kicked out of the LDS church, their LDS but then they also think Adam is God and maybe are considering polygamy and so, I mean, I like I think those families are more common than not and and of course they're not counted in the number of how many fundamentalist there are. But I would say that that's a lot more common of an experience than we give it credit for. You know, I can even speak to that because when I started Living, plural marriage, I went to church with both my wife.

57:18 I was in the others corn presidency. How did you do? To this day. I don't know to this day, I don't know. I mean, I think so, one of the things that I in terms, like one of the reasons why, I mean, I argued for the decriminalization of polygamy for many reasons, but one of the reasons that I thought it was so sad that women I knew who looked at themselves as wives and mothers and even like queens and priestesses were pretending to be a babysitter to. Like, avoid like, that killed me. It killed me too. That women were that and men were having to pretend not to be the father of their children.

58:00 It, it angered me. I mean, I remember, I remember the first time I went to the Petersen group, I mean, that's the name of the group and these two little girls ran up to me and one girl was just like hi, who are, you know, they're little, they're young girls and like I'm coming into their home, right? They're not. And so their guard is, everyone's guard is down like I'm in there. I'm in their place. Like this is they live here and You know, Ricky mistake. I was like oh who are your parents? Because I didn't know them, but I knew a lot of the adults and one of the little girls said, my mom is so and so my other mom and the first little girl like punched her arm. It's like you don't tell her that and I mean of courtly of course. Right.

58:43 Like they're of course they did that like this girl because I could be anyone, I could have been an FBI agent. I'm not. And that killed me to know that. Like these people are having to protect like and so how Like, how did you get around that? So again, I was in a very rural area, and when we moved there, The woman who would become my second wife with literally next door. And then, there was nobody on either side of us for a good Mile. And so it made it easy in the sense that we put in a gate in the back, right?

59:23 And I just went back and forth and it didn't raise any suspicions. As far as Church goes, I've fulfilled my callings right? I did I get, oh, I supposed to rather than me, sit in between Amber. And the, if I say her name, you have got to tell me. So I can edit it later, but I don't know right between between Amber and and the woman who was my second wife, And rather than sit in between them, they would sit next to each other. And I shared the story on the last podcast I did, but I'll share it again because I think he might get a kick out of it.

1:00:06 I'm Elders, Quorum president and I go in. I get they call me as I'm practicing pro-marriage, right? And I'm like, yeah, I'll take the calling and so I just had a good group of Brethren who just loved each other, right? They'd been there for years, they were well established. So home, teaching numbers went through the roof right back before it was called Ministry. Whatever. And it does so well. That they actually call a rep out. Well, a rep says I want to come talk to your elders, Quorum president an area seventy because the home teaching numbers went up. Now again it wasn't because of me, it was because of the work the Brethren are putting in in my quorum.

1:00:50 So pardon the expression, I hope I don't offend you up but when I get the text from the stake president saying hey Elder so and so wants to meet you to discuss. Why your home teaching? And so successful. I remember both Amber and the other woman who was my wife, I just went. Oh, okay. And I remember, I looked at my went oh shit, right? Cuz You know, your top, these are representatives from the lord, they're going to look right through you and they're going to be able to see everything you've done. So I gotta ask you on this for like two weeks, right? Two weeks. I got a stew on this and we're making plans, right? Okay, look, this goes bad, you know? And I'm sure it's going to come out because he's an area seventy, right?

1:01:36 He's just under an apostle, we're gonna, you know, we're just going to have to grin and bear this, and then we're going to move. Move. Right? That's that's the thought, right? We'll take our Xing and then and then we're gone. Yeah. Well, to be honest, I know it sounds silly. I don't know you've moved to, you know, Maryland and back, right? I don't have a problem pulling that trigger. If I have to, I'm like whatever to protect my family, we'll do whatever we got to do, I will get through this. So the day of the interview comes and I'm just sweating bullets. I mean, just I'm cantankerous at work. I'm sweating bullets. Bad. I'm like, you know my office just leave me alone and I go to the meeting and I sit down and he sits down and across from me and he's very personable and very nice.

1:02:22 And I'm like, here we go. Read my soul because I know you can. And he's asking me, you know, how's this, how's this work in, you know, how are you getting these kind of results? And I'm like, really, I think I just got a good group of Brethren, you know, we do our follow-up interviews, I think that's a lot of it. And he just kind of leans back in his chair and as he leans back, he I mean, he's looking me in the eye on Mike and here comes right here. It comes. And he just says Brother David. I feel inspired to tell you that whatever it is you're doing in your personal life, you need to keep doing that. Yes, yes, and I walked out of there and I got home and both the girls were just on the front porch. You know, anticipating what was going to happen. I was sweating it far more than they were sweating it, but I get out and they're like, well what do you say? And I said he can, he said, keep practicing plural marriage and then that was Oh boy.

1:03:26 Yeah that was that was that so yeah I mean I we never got found out. It was. Yeah and again I know it's not normal but that's just kind of how it went down and then she ended up leaving and I have this crazy idea that I'm just going to forget everything I learned. I'm just going to go back to the LDS church. I'm going to keep my mouth shut. And I'm just going to put my head down and up until about 20, 19. I was, I was an active member of the LDS church and then there were some change. There were some changes made to the temple. And again, I was in a leadership position in the ward. I live live in now that, you know, I still in the same neighborhood where there was just too many changes and I just, I had a moment one, Sunday morning, getting up during covid.

1:04:22 Right. Righteous covid started where I just got up and we started having some really interesting conversations at home, right? And they were great, gospel-centered conversations. And remember one Sunday morning, I got up to have to go to a meeting on zoom and I'm like, what the hell am I doing, right? I'm not true to who I am. I'm not in. So I basically threw in the towel at that point and Walked away but I mean, Bobby Hart I would be hard to go back. So it was it was it was so infuriating, right? But I kept doing this thing where I was like, well, if at least there's a Temple there, right? Maybe it's not everything but maybe it's enough and maybe this was just my I did all sorts of mental gymnastics to try to make this work right?

1:05:12 May end and to be fair, I had seen enough horror shows and fundamentalism that I was super nervous about the idea of going forward, right? So I was like, okay if if I can just do this bit of Bending over backwards and making it work and it just breaks, right. I mean, once, you know, you know. And so, yeah, that's, that's kind of, that's kind of how it went down. And to be fair, my wife, who's just an absolute rock star of a woman. She knew that day would come. In fact, I remember I never wanted to mourn too much in front of my wife, when, when my other wife left. So I never want her to feel like she wasn't enough So I was like, okay, just do your morning and private and one night she found me kind of pissing and moaning myself on the, on the deck.

1:06:03 And I was like you know, I'm never doing this. Again, this is stupid. I'm just going to go back to the LDS church and keep my mouth shut and she and I'm never doing this ever ever again. And she just looked at me and she smiled and she said, if we're called to do it again and we're going to do it and she just turned around walked back into the end of the house. But yeah, I mean yeah. She's Awesome. She really is but yeah so that's I'm sorry that was a long answer for a short question. That's that's kind of how no that's that's that's kind of how we made it work. I'm so curious about your second. I mean, you can cut this out the driven independent second ceiling.

1:06:46 I did I did. Yep. Yep. Well, we'll talk more. I remember I remember I remember asking and while I probably bothered her so much just constantly being like who still do dog, didn't who still get Ogden Utah. Good. I'm like every time she would just be like Christina. Yeah because you've got very close to her chest but I've been so obnoxious to her about it. We'll talk we'll talk when I'm done. If you have time, we'll talk for a few minutes. One out one, we're done recording and I'll fill you in on a few more details. But yeah, we basically what it was is I went to Ogden krauts work, right? That was the only thing as far as fundamentalism, that was online. That you could readily access, right? About 2008.

1:07:35 No, noggin was long dead by then. No, well, no, no. It wasn't nobody seal this. What it was is I'm sure you've read about it. The, the idea of a solemn Covenant, where it's basically like a lesser married. I shouldn't say marriage. Its lesser Authority, but it's something that will stay in place until you find proper Authority. And that was the idea, that's what we did. And then the idea was okay, now we got to go, find proper Authority, right? And so, because it's not like the Bishops going to do it so or, you know, we can go into the temple. Although I did take my second wife into the temple, many many times, Yep.

1:08:19 Yeah, I was yeah, no, it was not, it was not. So we'll talk more if you're interested. But anyway, I yeah, I was a bit bold in a little stupid anyway. We did that and that's how we kind of did that while we were trying to find proper Authority. Another question I got for you, what's as you go into your research and then you present right? Do you ever present to folks who maybe aren't fundamentalists or familiar with fundamentalism? You find it what what is it you think is the biggest animal stereotype or misconception that you fight against or shouldn't even say fight against the. The one thing that you illuminate that maybe catches people off guard?

1:09:09 I mean so most of the people I present to are not Don't study more, I mean, I presented Mormon history, Association quite a bit but also represent the American Academy of religion and people there at they study. Every religion. Like they don't. They're not familiar with Fundamentalist Mormon ISM. Actually I never presented in front of Fundamentalist. Until I met Che this year date. David Watson of the AUB came to my panels and I was like, oh, I like I saw him out of the corner of my eye and I was like, oh, What's the present of the priesthood right there?

1:09:53 And it was, I mean, it was night I was presenting on Joseph muster and so and he it was it was great to be able to, you know, talk to him about. The man who he's in priesthood. Secession secession with. So, but that's a rare occurrence. Most people have no idea. Probably, the wildest one is misconception. But also what was most shocking is in 2018? Yeah, 2018, I presented about women who convert to fundamentalism often time like sometimes without their husbands, who just joined the movement without some of them leave their husbands to join and some have never been Great.

1:10:33 And people were shocked that there are women who joined this movement, that was shocking to people, or I mean women who it was their idea in their marriage. That's kind of always the one that people are like, there's no way but it it, I mean, I know, I know these women, I'm not lying, like, I know women you do, too. We all like, I mean, if you're a part, if you're in the world of Mormon fundamentalism, you know, women who want to join the movement and that is that there's a historic precedent for that. That so probably that and then recently I wrote an article on mother's and heaven and heavenly mother.

1:11:14 It's kind of having a moment and I'll be as Mormonism where you're not supposed to talk about her and it just I mean Taylor Petrie, the editor of dialogue, the journal was something of a prophet in his own right and that he had been compiling, a special issue on heavenly mother, right? And it like came out like the week before the week after the church said kind of clarified. The don't talk about her and I opened it with the him that the AUB have my mother. And a lot of people were really surprised that son of Mentalist have a heavenly mother, I mean, of course, they do. They have many gods a polygamist. Like, they don't just have one, right, bunch.

1:11:56 And as part of that article, I talked about in some groups, there is ordination of women and that was really shocking to a lot of people that fundamentalist women to varying degrees. And of course, this isn't I never sugarcoat polygamy. I don't spoiler. I know, like all your listeners, you know, me are like, we know Christina. I don't like polygamy and so kind of this idea that women who are polygamist, sometimes get Authority in their churches, through various means that was really shocking to people. So I guess it's usually things women. That people are just like, there's no way that there's no way that women are happy in this. And, of course, that's not all women. I mean Warren Jeffs exist.

1:12:44 Like a lot of there's a lot of abuse but also there are women who are wanting to be fundamentalist there. Always I mean tell wild really want this life. Yeah. No it and in fact and again I'll share with you when we're offline for recording here. That's how I came into it. It was Amber and her best friend studying about stuff and yeah, I mean it was I I avoid. I was like no no no but yeah, no. And I'm glad you said that because one of the One of the big ones that I encounter all the time, right?

1:13:28 No matter who I'm talking to you was, as you know, oh, you're those, women must be just beat down and don't get me wrong. There are some I'm not here to tell you that. There's not. But there are a lot of strong Women Within fundamentals and and yeah, yeah, that's one of the things that has always kind of bugged me as this idea that that they must be somehow beaten down or whatever. Yeah, and through and there's various ways that that's not, I mean fun, most fundamentalist group to do any kind of Temple work are doing. S, anointings women are given particular Authority in the second anointing. They always have have been in that article.

1:14:12 I published part of Fred Colliers ordination booklet. That talks about here are date. Like, women were being ordained alongside their husband. And so, I mean, that happens. I mean, it's a both. And like both of those and both of those can exist in fundamentals and at the same time and I think that this is one of the hardest things generally and in my own tradition, right? I mean abuse happens in my own tradition but also I love my priest. Books can be true and there can be abuse and fundamentalism but also there can be like really wrath stories of women doing cool things. Both of those can be true at the same time, right? You know, it's interesting and dive I kind of thought about this a lot is that for the first time ever?

1:15:03 at least in my time as as a fundamentalist, even one in hiding, I feel like There's an opportunity to talk about things that even mainstream LDS. People are hungry for, right? When when there's a apostle from the LDS church that says we just don't know anything about heavenly mother. I'm like, yeah, we do. We actually really do, right. I mean, like, it may be uncomfortable for you, but we actually do know those things. And, you know, this idea of, you know, the ordain women movement, I'm like it was, you know, There are a lot of lot of historical accounts of Relief, Society, president's giving blessings and, and doing those things for for the sisters. And so it's a weird space.

1:15:53 I sometimes feel that that fundamentalist occupy and the sense that a lot of the questions that are getting answered now or are begging for answers, I feel like fundamentalism in within LDS circles, I should, I should specify By that with within those lbs circles its fundamentalism. Who ultimately always kind of had the answer all along and I think it takes even something something as Oh, go ahead. Sorry. Nope. Keep going. I think there's a delay. That's why. Yeah, I know. There's a little bit of a delay. I was just going to say, I think we're at a point where we can give some of those answers. Now they're going to be uncomfortable answers know, there's going to be a lot of LDS, people who don't want to hear that and I don't think that's something we should ever force is fundamentalist but I don't think there's anything wrong with getting that out there. Yeah I mean even something as Base level as who's God's God? Hmm.

1:16:57 Yeah, we know and that's that's a hard one. Like that's a hard one because you know, as God once was we have the couplets and ends in the LDS church, the idea of Eternal progression stand. The idea that God was once a man. But the big kind of I mean my lingering question then is like all right. Well who's Grandpa God like who's he And like from fundamentalism, like I know his name is Jehovah in some groups and that's something that that has an answer. Historically. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I sometimes feel like it's fundamentalist we occupy this weird space where Certainly from like, the more feminist parts of the LDS church, there's a lot of answers to be had in fundamentalism. The problem is, is it walks hand-in-hand with polygamy and it, it can create a lot of cognitive dissidence. Yeah, I mean that's a hard.

1:18:05 It's a hard thing, especially, with women's ordination and heavenly mother in in Mormon cosmology, there is a heavenly mother. She comes with polygamy right. There is is being ordained, Queen and Priestess, historically, that meant polygamy. And if you look at the biggest Advocates of have of talking about heavenly mother, I mean the one is Eliza snow. Right? I mean she wrote. Oh, My Father. Eliza snow was like I mean, can make an argument that she came up with it, right? I mean, she's the one that like we know this Doctrine from first and she was simultaneously, one of the biggest Advocates of polygamy, like that that it was a very in meshed reality in 19th century Mormonism. Yeah.

1:18:57 Yeah, it's yeah. It's an interesting space and it's kind of an interesting time because not only do we have Those kind of questions being asked but we also have things like under the banner of heaven and we have have you know, the one on Netflix. Where again I just feel like we're in this fundamentalist moment where we could really step forward now. Right. I don't think we have to worry about persecution. Like we did back in the old days, right? I think certainly if you're abusive you should have something to fear but if you're not abusive and you're living And I'm saying this from an outsider's perspective and alternative lifestyle. Well, there's a ton of alternative Lifestyles out there now and I feel like we're in a spot where maybe it's time. We take that step forward and just let some of that knowledge out.

1:19:50 Yeah, I mean that was our bit I mean that was the big thing that I mean there's multiple Avenues of approaching like decriminalization but that was the big one that we approached it with is, like, what is there to gain by continuing to force people? Into the Shadows. Like what are we gaming by doing? This polygamy has been illegal for over 60 years and Warren Jeffs. Still existed, right? So and the great irony, if there was ever someone that we were going to prosecute for polygamy, it would have been him and we didn't. Yeah, it was not prosecuted for me. So what is it that our polygamy laws have done? They have they've caused a lot of hurt for people and they have pushed a religion into the shadows and They've created a spectacle and I wouldn't say you know I don't know and maybe I'm looking at it too simplistic.

1:20:43 I mean your you've certainly done your share of research so correct me if I'm wrong but I can at least make a think a fairly compelling argument that the whole reason. Warren Jeffs was able to do what he was able to do was because they had to live in the shadows. Had that been out in the open, right? Had they not been marginalized, maybe that's a different story. Maybe not. But that short Creek, raid did nothing but force that into the shadows and then gave a dictator and a tyrant the opportunity to say, see the world is coming for us. So we have to be isolated and isolation.

1:21:24 He could do all sorts of bad stuff. Oh yeah, I mean what happens when you take a group of people and you look at them and say, you can't go to the police and you're not lying because there's a precedent for what happens if you do. It will not end. I mean, there's audio of Warren. Jeffs teaching children about the raid. The 53 raid, like he actually did this, and there is something there's a lot to lose when people are abused, but can't go to the police. Because they'll lose their children like a lot. There is a lot to lose there, but there's also a lot to lose when you have people, whose marriages aren't legal and their children can't get health insurance, right?

1:22:10 And there's only there's a lot to lose by keeping this system in the shadows. Yeah. So tell me about that process that you helped out with and I can't remember the name of the bill again, H be something if I Correctly. Yep, SP 1002. So when you did you, were you one of the ones that got to go? Talk to lawmakers about it? Yeah, I talked to multiple reps and senators and I also testified at the house committee, and the Senate, not the Senate, I'm sorry. Yeah. I testified at two of the hearings so I don't know which ones those were one of them was the house Judiciary. So anyway, yeah I talked to a lot of reps, it was a wild experience.

1:23:02 I mean as like a gentile woman being like, let me tell you why polygamy it needs to be decriminalized but I remember one of the like one of the Just kind of, I mean there are two moments that really stuck out to me. The first was a representative. He was explained, I liked stated my case. I only had a certain amount of time and he was like, oh polygamy had its Heyday but it doesn't happen anymore. I was like Oh, it's like what? Why? And then the other weird one I went in to meet with a rep with a polygamist woman and this tile is really highlighted that people, imagine polygamist women only in Prairie dresses, right? So like, whatever they're imagining of polygamy was it was certainly not the woman who I was with. And the person was like, well, if you would ever just meet a polygamist woman sitting next to one, And I told the rep, I was like, I'm sitting by one.

1:24:08 And so she like shared her story about why this mattered to her and why she was coming forward as like a polygamous woman, but it was just like this weird moment of like, yeah, I do know about polygamy like pretty well actually I mean but also at the same time it was very hard hearing people. I mean there were some people on the other side of that. There were a lot of people the other side who I deeply respect women who left really harmful dangerous situations, abusive situations. And there were men who left really dangerous situations and so there's a lot of people. There were a lot of people on the other side that I respect deeply but then there were also people who are just like, concerned citizens and I'm like, I don't No, I don't know if your goal is being a concerned person, but that, I mean, one of the things that was hard, was having to sit and hear the really hard stories and Young on the other side of the room, knowing that you're going to testify against people who had very traumatic experiences. And my I mean, my only answer to that my own and it's the answer that I'll continue to give and my only answer is you had all these traumatic experiences while polygamy was illegal. Right, right.

1:25:34 No, you're you're right and the legal illegal. Yeah. And that's always the hard part, right? Is because you never want to make somebody's experience feel minimalized or any of those other things. So at the same time you got to kind of, you know, just call it like you see it. That that would have been hard. So do you think the bill passed was there anyone that voted? Added for the bill that you didn't think would vote for the bill. You think you guys change anybody's mind? In the house which was wild, it was wild to like, see a unanimous vote and then in the Senate, only three people voted, no one of them. We knew would vote.

1:26:24 No, we were never going to change his mind. He ran hb2 14, which was the bill that made bigamy of violent crime, a year or a year before. So we knew that he was going to go that way. There were a couple that I That we didn't know and you could see at least two of them. I remember pretty distinctly watching that as the vote was happening and I could see them like looking around at what they're like colleagues were doing and there was momentum, you know, of this is clearly a landslide, he will started. All of them, kind of did it, but it was three people voted, no one of them actually wasn't present and then like called in and said that they want their vote to be counted as a.

1:27:08 Yes. So it ended up being only two which is wild voted against it. And I think the reason that is, we ran it as a harm reduction issue. And when I talk to polygamist people, fundamentalist people on, this is something that is hard to hear, but I think it's important. People don't care about fundamentalist religious freedom, they never have. The religious freedom of polygamists has never mattered in the United States. That is hard to hear, but it's true. So if you argue about, if you argue this based on religious freedom, that's not going to get you anywhere. People have heard that argument before. This isn't you know you're not going to walk in and recite the First Amendment and someone's going to be like wow I haven't thought about that they have they don't care. The other one is talking about alternative Lifestyles. People don't care.

1:28:01 People are going to be like will pull from these different. You are the slippery slope. Fortunately right polygamy is the slippery slope that I've been warned everyone about and so people won't care polygamists and fundamentalist people. What, what people care about is how this is actually going to help stop abuse, how this is going to help support women, how this is support and the harm reduction effort, the harm reduction lens of looking at polygamy, is the winner for this issue. It is it is what will ultimately, I hope not only decriminalize nationally, but it also So be that legalizes polygamy. Do you ever see it being legalized?

1:28:42 I mean, that's my heart. I know, I know that this is a Hot Topic. I know a lot of fundamentalist want to decriminalize but not legalized because they want the state out of. I know, I know I would like it legal. I know that the barrier to that is it would take revision of the tax code, it would take a revision of how health insurance, it would take a lot of work. So of course, the first goal is a national decriminalization. I do think that's going to happen. One day, I think a stupid Little Mists shocking, don't just live in Utah. Shut up, really. I know, I know I when I found out that there were polygamists in Arizona, I didn't know.

1:29:30 I know wait until you hear that short Creek was in Arizona. Yeah, so I mean when when people here as I know But I think that'll happen. I think legalization has to happen when. I mean, I would like it too. I want women to be able to get alimony if they leave. I want children to be able to have health insurance. I want men to be responsible for their wives to provide health insurance to provide care for their children. I want there to be a responsibility that comes with living the principle like a tangible, temporal responsibility. And I I don't think that would Warren Jeffs had. Had had have 78 wives.

1:30:15 If he had to provide health insurance for every single one? No, no. He would not know. You're 100% correct. And this is where like you said that, most fundamentalists are always Libertarians. I'll say this to you about Libertarians, we all hedge a little bit, right? And this is one of those issues where I tend to hedge, right? And go. Go a little bit more. Like, okay maybe not just decriminalization but legalization is the route because I have six kids, right? For me and my wife had and then we adopted a set of twins. I love my kids with my whole heart. The thought of having to have my kids, not call me, dad breaks, my heart, likewise.

1:31:08 Likewise, if you're a dirtbag and you're practicing this from a dirtbag standpoint, you know, you're asking to be on the hook, you need to pay. Point Blank. And so that's that's in the mom. Your child should have health insurance at minimum of like, at maximum, you shouldn't be practicing it, right? But I like, I know, I know a lot. I mean, I know people who don't have birth certificates, right. Yeah, granted. That's a very rare but I know people who don't have health insurance, a lot of people and That that's par when you get sick, right? I mean that's hard.

1:31:55 And we think that's a whole different debate about how health insurance has to operate in this country. Like, it's a whole different thing, but it's stuff that there are no actual there's no There are absolutely no barriers for anything of having 100 children. If you want to have a hundred children, I don't care but I want you to be financially responsible for them. It's not, I don't know, I don't know why that's radical. But somehow it is II. Don't think it's radical at all. I tend to I tend to agree with you on that a lot. I think that that if and everyone says well what health insurance companies going to cover that? Well if there's one thing I found out about capitalism, it's very Salient, if there's a market to be. Gain from lll.

1:32:40 Find a way to do it, right? And so, I tend to think that, you know what, maybe it starts as a cooperative, and maybe it becomes full-fledged insurance, but all I know is that usually capitalism will find a way to to serve a customer base. And so I, yeah, I'm with you, I'm like, Life and even in the decriminalization standpoint, like as someone who has kids, like everyone. I know who has kids want their kids to feel safe calling 911. If there's an emergency and unfortunately it's true that we need to live in a situation where fundamentalist don't feel comfortable calling 911, if their child gets hurt like that continues to happen and not from my perspective. The only way to stop that was decriminalizing polygamy. So people Call 911 without fear like that was and I think that that is the I think that is the game-changing argument. Not only because it is compelling and it's an interesting way to look at it.

1:33:45 But it's true. We know from nonprofits that when deployed me was decriminalized. The number of people seeking housing went up. The number of people seeking Mental Health Resources one up. The number of people reporting violent crime went up the number of Of people seeking food when we know by the numbers that that happens. It is factually true that people saw it resources from nonprofits and the government when polygamy was decriminalized. We have the numbers. Yeah, when the when the vote came in, where were you at? Were you in the in the state house when the vote came went through? Oh yeah, I was and I was at.

1:34:27 I was in the Senate Raptors watching it. Tell me what that was like, tell me what it was like to sit there with the people that you've devoted your academic life to as that vote came down, well as I'm like, getting emotional. So I was sitting next to Vicki Val, and Alena jogger who, I mean, the people who the people who decriminalize polygamy, Yes, it's Deidre Henderson and low res. No, that's true. Whoo-hoo decriminalize. Polygamy are surely Draper. Cherish families, and Vicki Val Alina and Joe dorgan. Think those are the people who put in the work whoo-hoo. I mean, Joe's family.

1:35:17 They've been a public face of polygamy forever. And surely, she was for those who don't know if I'll guess she's worked her. And she runs a non-profit in short Creek. That does incredible work for people. Who are in and people who are trying to leave and she's devoted her life to this. So seeing what this meant to them was really a big deal. But at the same time, I mean, I I became convinced of this issue when Roy died. It's why I did it, you know, I mean, I generous pour decriminalization of things, but this one was for Roy, it, that really mattered to me.

1:36:01 So when the boat came in, like I knew I had done it. Like, I knew I blamed, I blamed the state for killing Roy. I mean warrant, you know, Warren did it by extension, right? It was the state that was the LDS church. It was a lot of institutions. And I knew there was a tiny bit of hope that the government couldn't create and Warren. And so that was that was a really big deal to me. You know, I have more questions but I think we're going to end there. I just want to wrap up by just telling you I appreciate your work so much as a guy who's kind of sat back and been a Loki fundamentalist for a lot of years. I always found your work compelling. I just want to thank you for what you've done. I mean it's huge and it's important work. And Yeah, I just I think you're awesome. Is there anything else you want to say in closing, I would just want to tell people, sorry, I got her, I would just want to tell people that if you, I mean, I always want to plug Church families, if you're someone who's wanting to give to a non-profit, who is a people, especially from the flds, check them out, read dialogue.

1:37:31 It's an Open Access Journal. Meaning you do not need a subscription to Bill term. Eat it, you're wanting to read stuff about more Urban history and you don't know where to start there and then also give your money to Benchmark books. They're like the only Bookseller I know of in Utah that has a whole section on fundamentalism like people like profits go and drop off their Revelations by the box when you combine. And so I mean there's some really great places on the ground that are kind of tell this history, the journal Mormon history is also rad and mha I just I would love to see more fundamentalist people, actively involved in the historical community. Awesome. Well, Dr. Christina Rossetti. You're awesome.

1:38:11 I appreciate it. Thank you so much. All right for having me. Hey, would you be willing to come back on it another time too? Yeah, I would love to have you back on some. All right. Well, everyone will say goodbye till next time.