Episode #16: A conversation with Cristina Rosetti, PhD

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Okay.
So I told you early on that,

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this podcast, it was nothing
more than a place for me to sit

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down and talk with people.
I found really cool and

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interesting, this episode was
like a dream come true for me.

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I had the opportunity to sit
down with, Christina Rossetti.

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Now, full disclosure, I'm a huge
fan of her work.

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She has spent her entire
academic career, studying,

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Mormon, fundamentalism her work,
is respected by academics and

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Mormon, fundamentalists alike
for work is both.

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Compromising and fair in our
conversation, we cover, how she

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became interested in Mormon
fundamentalism, how she was able

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to gain access to so many
different types of

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fundamentalist, where she thinks
Mormon fundamentalism.

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Is ultimately going and her
experiences working to pass the

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bill here in Utah.
That would ultimately lead to

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the decriminalization of plural
marriage.

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That's next on this edition of
the Mormon, Renegade podcast.

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So, I just want to take a moment
to thank you.

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The Listener, when I started
this podcast I wasn't sure if

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anyone would really listen.
Now to my surprise, this thing

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has taken on a life of its own
and that's all due to you the

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listener, spending your time
here with me, and it means a

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great deal to me now, as a
husband and father, I'm keenly

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aware of how important time is.
It feels like there's just never

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enough of it.
So when you are spending your

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time here, listening to this
podcast, I feel a responsibility

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to never waste your time in that
Spirit as this podcast has

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grown.
I feel like I need to do you the

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listener.
Justice, I want to continue to

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produce good content and upgrade
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better equipment and better
software and that all takes

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money.
Now, I've tried to advertise,

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but you'd be surprised.
There's not a lot of people want

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to advertise on a Mormon
fundamentalist podcast.

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I know surprising right?
So I now humbly ask that if you

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have means that you consider a
small donation to the podcast,

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so I can make those investments
in equipment and software.

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If you feel like that's
something that you can do, go

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check out, Mormon rent.
Okay.com and hit the Donate tab

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if you're not in that position
to do.

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So I completely understand.
We're all squeezed right now

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with high gas, prices and high
inflation.

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So even if you can't, please
keep listening and maybe keep

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the podcast in your prayer, so
we can continue to grow produce.

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Good content and better audio
quality.

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Thank you.
Your listing to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Welcome back to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast as always you
can get ahold of me either by

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email at Mormon Renegade at
gmail.com.

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You can also get a hold of me on
Instagram and Twitter and getter

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under the handle.
Mormon Renegade.

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Also we have a website up and
that's Mormon Renegade.com, so

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go check that out.
So today on the podcast, I have

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Buddy that I have wanted to talk
to you since day one.

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It's a little embarrassing but
I'm probably damn near a fanboy

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overworked and and that is
Christina Rossetti.

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So Christina, I can't tell you
how how excited I am that,

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you're here.
I really, I'm just super excited

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for this.
Well, thank you so much for

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having me.
I'm so excited to talk to you.

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About fundamentalism.
My favorite thing to talk about,

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it has to be okay real quick.
You grew up in California.

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How do you get to like, not only
do I want to know about

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fundamentalism?
I want to be like the go-to in

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academic circles on
fundamentalism.

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The question of the ages, how
did I get here?

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Right, right, I actually asked
myself that regularly.

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Do you rub me?
Oh yeah, I mean oh yeah.

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And the answer is You know, I
have a running joke with my

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friends that I mean the answer
is I read Richard Bushman rough

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Stone Rolling, okay?
And I didn't really know what a

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Mormon was And I read that my
first year of grad school, it

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was assigned to me by the woman
who became my advisor.

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I'm Andalusia because I was
interested in the 19th century

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and I was interested in
communitarianism.

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So United order is like a
logical thing to look at.

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And she assigns me rough Stone
Rolling and I was I don't know

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if you've read it I'm sure you
might have.

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Yep.
So, I opened it at my parents

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kitchen table and I read it in
two days.

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I know that's a big boy.
It is a big book.

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I have.
So I mean I have told Richard

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Bushman, the story now twice.
But I read, I, I couldn't put it

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down.
I needed to know everything

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about Joseph Smith, I needed to
know everything about this idea

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of restoration.
This religion that people are

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willing to do anything for.
And it was so foreign to me as

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someone who Wasn't like, didn't,
you know, you know, Mormon say I

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know the church is true as
someone who has never been able

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to say that sentence.
I was just like, what is this?

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And so I, you know, I went to
the library, I went on Amazon

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and I bought, I got through both
Avenues every book on Mormonism.

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I was just like, I need to know
everything and I mean, I

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obviously don't know everything,
but I got, I mean, I tried and

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my advisor told me, you know,
you want to study living people.

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Why don't you go to a church or
an Institute or something?

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But there's a building right on
campus. and I told the story a

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lot that I went in and I was
disappointed in a way because it

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wasn't rough Stone Rolling,
right?

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And I mean, of course it wasn't
like, what did I, what did they

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think was gonna happen?
I was gonna walk in everyone's

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living United order and like,
living the living polygamy,

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like, no.
But it felt like this jarring

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moment of, like, I don't know
what a Mormon is like what is a

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Mormon And you know, long story
short through a series of

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events.
I met fundamentalists and I met

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something, akin to rough Stone
Rolling in the fundamentalist

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movement and I learned about,
you know, Joseph muster who I'm

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so honored to get to write his
biography now.

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And I just learned about these
people that are trying so hard

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to live a life.
Like this book that captivated

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me when I was just like a
brand-new shiny grad student,

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Wow.
So yeah, you really got thrown

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in on the deep end.
I mean, you went from zero to

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rough Stone Rolling that's going
to do it, right?

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And then you try to follow that
up with visiting some, some

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mainstream Mormons and then all
of a sudden, you're like, well,

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this looks nothing like that.
But oh yeah, to be to be fair

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though, I can kind of identify
with that, right?

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Because I'm a convert to the LDS
church, right?

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And I'm also a pretty voracious
reader, so, I get in and I, you

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know, And to be fair, I probably
the seeds of fundamentalism were

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sown even before I was baptized
because our local Pastor, who my

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mom had a sign up with he when
he found out I was going to go

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LDS.
He's like well you need to read

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this and he gave me excerpts
from the Journal of discourses.

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So I take it to my missionaries
and it blows their mind and then

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eventually it works.
Its way up to the Old State

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patriarch who's heard about all
this and has obscured.

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Your books.
And so, I think those seeds were

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always there even from my
initial, but I can remember

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those feelings of disappointment
at times, right?

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Especially when I heard stuff
that was not quite factually

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correct from the pulpit on
Sunday in an LDS Ward, right?

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I'm like, hmm.
But is it though for reals?

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And it might be one of the, I
mean, one of the like it's so

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true.
That one man's anti-mormon

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literature is another man's
proselyting handle.

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Absolutely like anti-mormon
literature is just Mormon

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fundamentalism.
But yeah.

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Did you like did, you know?
I mean, I remember being done in

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Manti.
The miracle pageant with a group

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of fundamentals missionaries and
the evangelicals looked at that

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and was like, did you know that
Brigham Young taught?

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Adam is God and they were just
like, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.
We believe that still and like

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the Evangelical proselyte like
didn't know what to do.

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With this kid that was just
like, yeah.

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And I still believe that.
Yeah, it's ya know.

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I I've often said that that the,
the best solution to the folks

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who, you know, protest outside
at Temple Square during

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conference or when they were
holding the pageant was have a

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group of fundamentals down there
because I was just shut it down,

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way fast.
I mean they got nothing at that

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point right?
When you're like oh yeah no and

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I totally buy it too well.
I cook Line and Sinker they're

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like Well he'll there, I got
nothing left, I'm going home.

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So yeah, yeah, yeah I mean yeah
and I'm in similar, I mean, I'm

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still friends with my Institute
teacher on Facebook.

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I hope he hasn't muted me.
But yeah, I mean, it was a, it

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was, it was very similar to your
journey of going LDS.

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Forgotten then being like wait,
there's more?

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Yeah, yeah.
There was although I kind of got

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tossed into the deep into.
Like I said, I I got, I was

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practicing plural marriage.
Before I had done an in-depth,

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study of Adam God, or any of the
other stuff before I knew about,

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you know, how, just how
significant Temple changes were.

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And so, this whole I'm trying to
go through and get my bearings

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in the yeah, no, I can totally
it's impressive that you

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digested, rough Stone Rolling,
and then we're like, give me

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more.
That's, that's nuts to this.

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One was Magic World View.
That was okay by Quinn, right?

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Yep.
Yep.

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Yeah, so you get into it and
you're in college at any point

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while you were in college.
Did you think?

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Oh yeah, this is something.
I'm going to keep going down.

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I mean, was there a point at
which you realize you were kind

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of hooked?
Oh yeah it was really I mean so

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this was in grad school so I
like had to come up with pretty

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quickly what I was going to
study for the rest of my life

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and and I I mean I jumped into a
Ph.D program really young.

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I would have done things
differently in hindsight, but

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you know, I was 23.
And I had to figure out what the

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rest of my life was going to be
and I read rough Stone Rolling.

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I was like, well, I guess this
is it, I guess I'll study

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Mormonism forever.
It was I mean I wouldn't I

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wouldn't do anything.
I wouldn't do that any

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differently but yeah, I mean I
got I got there and I knew I

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knew that that was what I was
going to be and I had a lot of

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ideas for what that would look
like.

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It has gone very different.
Now originally I was studying

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living people but No, the 1930s
to 60s are a wild time.

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And so that's kind of really
been my focus now but I mean

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there's also like just so much
about the doctrinal development

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of fundamentalism that people
don't know.

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And just like, you know,
everyone kind of Associates

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fundamentals in with polygamy
but there's so much more and so

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it just became a love of mine of
like doing deep.

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Dives into really particular
doctrines that people are not

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familiar with.
No, you raised a good point,

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that that Plural marriage is a
real small part of fundamental

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that I shouldn't say small part.
It's a huge part but there is so

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much more right?
And I remember as I'm certain

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is, I'm sorting through it.
I remember looking at both my

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wife Amber and the other woman
he was with us at the time

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thinking we got a lot to do.
Only.

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I didn't say shoot I was a lot
more explicit.

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I was like there is so much here
we don't, we don't even begin to

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understand and so I could.
Yeah, no, you're right 30s. 60s

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is a wild time, so you get you
kind of get, you know, figure

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out.
Okay.

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This is what I want to do.
My next question is you've been

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able to gain just unprecedented
access to a lot of different

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groups and people?
How did you manage that?

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Because by Nature
fundamentalist, I've noticed are

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very cautious, right?
At best cautious, if not closed

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off.
So how were you able to

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approach?
That's One thing for a guy like

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me who's, like, look, I want to
know more and I believe this,

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can you teach me, right?
That's that's a different thing

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than saying, you know, maybe I
want to do an ethnography on you

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00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,500
or, you know, I want to, you
know, I just want to study a.

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00:13:17,500 --> 00:13:21,500
How did you gain that access?
That's a really good question.

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And I mean, I think there's a
lot of I think it's a lot of

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00:13:26,908 --> 00:13:29,000
moving parts.
I mean, I met members of the

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00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,000
Peterson group who, when I
first, I mean they're very Line.

227
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,500
Now they have missionaries.
When I first met them, I would

228
00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:40,500
say they were less online, but
they were still pretty open like

229
00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:43,800
they were accepting converts.
They were interested in people

230
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,400
joining.
They wanted to tell people about

231
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,800
the group.
So they were some of the first

232
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,500
people I met.
Now a lot of people meet them.

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00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:54,700
Of course, a lot of people meet
fundamentalists and never get,

234
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:58,900
you know, invited to Nevada,
right?

235
00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:03,900
I think.
I mean, I think the big thing is

236
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:08,300
I never I was always very honest
with what I was doing.

237
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,500
I know there was never, and I
think, I mean, of course they

238
00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:13,800
had to believe me, people had to
believe me that I was honest

239
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,300
about what I was doing, but I
never and still to this day.

240
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:22,600
Like I've never lied about my
intentions or what I was doing.

241
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,600
I always was just like I have no
intention of joining but I think

242
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,500
there's multiple stories here
that the world needs to know and

243
00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:32,300
I'd like to tell him if you
would trust me to do that.

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00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,100
And of course people again had
to be willing to Let me come in

245
00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:40,300
their house and meet their
children and like talk to them.

246
00:14:40,300 --> 00:14:43,200
And that's scary when there's
like this random Gentile, girl,

247
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,000
from California.
I like showing up at your home,

248
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,000
but I think I think it was a mix
of just.

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00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,900
And honestly, I think the other
thing is people don't ask too

250
00:14:53,900 --> 00:14:58,000
and that sounds strange.
But I mean, I don't think most

251
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,900
people are like, oh, your
fundamentals, Mormon, can I come

252
00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:06,200
over that sounds wild, but I
spent a good portion of my life.

253
00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:08,500
I've just asking people if I
could come over to their house

254
00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:14,200
and ask them like really
personal questions, which again,

255
00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:18,000
not everyone wants that, but
some people were willing to.

256
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:20,800
And so I think the big thing is
I was willing to just be like,

257
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,300
hey, I can I come over and I did
that with a few groups, some of

258
00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:30,700
them you know turned into
friendships others didn't, but I

259
00:15:30,708 --> 00:15:33,000
think I was I was honest about
what I was doing.

260
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,300
I was willing to ask to come
over and people were willing to

261
00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:38,000
like Boyle.
I wasn't gonna do anything to

262
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,600
harm their families and on the
contrary I mean my experiences

263
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,800
with fundamentalist led me to
lobby for us be 10 to the bill

264
00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,400
that decriminalized pulling in
Utah.

265
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:54,000
And so I think I think my
continued actions show that I

266
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:59,800
wasn't a jerk at least I hope
not right.

267
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,100
You know, know and and to be
honest, that's one of the things

268
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:06,900
I've always respected about
about the work you did do, is

269
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:11,000
that and continue to do is that
while you're not going to

270
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,600
sugarcoat anything, you're going
to just kind of call balls and

271
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,400
Strikes as you see.
Right and I can kind of get not

272
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,100
kind I can definitely get with
with that idea because let's

273
00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:25,700
face it.
I mean, I would rather have

274
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,000
someone like yourself out there,
trying to tell this story then

275
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,900
maybe somebody who has an ax to
grind, right?

276
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:37,200
There's enough out there with
with what Jeff has done to make

277
00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:39,800
the lives of fundamentalist hard
as it is.

278
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,300
So that's one of the reasons I
respect.

279
00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:45,100
A lot of what you've done is
because I felt like it was fair.

280
00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:53,100
So in this process of gaining
access to these groups was and

281
00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:56,000
you don't have to name names,
was there ever a point at which

282
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,600
you thought?
Where maybe you were stonewalled

283
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,200
a little bit?
Yeah.

284
00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:05,400
Yeah I mean and I mean, there's
groups that I never asked to

285
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,400
study.
I mean I don't I don't study the

286
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,400
flds.
That's kind of a blanket.

287
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,099
Something I don't do.
I mean I taught you have to talk

288
00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:16,599
about them when you talk about
the history but I I don't say

289
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:21,300
them, they don't talk to
Outsiders, you know, most of

290
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:23,700
them.
There's a select group that do,

291
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,400
but most flds do not talk to
Outsiders.

292
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,200
And so that was something I just
knew like, was not going to

293
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,300
happen.
So I didn't try.

294
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,700
There was one group I did meet
with.

295
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,700
A man who leads it but, you
know, it, it didn't feel like he

296
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:46,000
wanted to continue talking to me
for whatever reason, I mean, you

297
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,900
know.
And that's if people don't want

298
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:50,300
to continue talking to me, I
don't really press for it, but

299
00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:54,800
there's definitely been groups
that are more closed off.

300
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:58,600
And for, and fair, right, I
mean, this is a religion and

301
00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:00,800
Mormon.
Fundamentalism is a marginalized

302
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:02,900
religious tradition.
It's a minority tradition, and

303
00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:07,300
it's a criminalized religious
This is not a religion that you

304
00:18:07,308 --> 00:18:11,800
can risk having a cop show up,
and take your kids because that

305
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,600
has happened, many times in the
history of this religion, so for

306
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,900
good reason.
Yeah, there's definitely been

307
00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:21,300
people that don't want to talk
to me have waited in any of that

308
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:28,700
field while in any of that in
any of your field, research, did

309
00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:31,800
you ever feel like, oh hell, I
shouldn't be where I'm at right

310
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:33,700
now.
Like maybe you were a little bit

311
00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:34,700
endangered.
All.

312
00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:40,900
I wouldn't say danger.
I mean, people who know me and

313
00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:44,500
love me and who looked at
situations from the outside

314
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:46,400
might be like, no, that wasn't a
good idea.

315
00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:49,800
I don't think I've ever felt in
danger.

316
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:53,000
Did I feel uncomfortable?
Yes, I think that's probably a

317
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,600
better way to say.
Okay, what was as you're doing

318
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,800
this research and you're talking
to all these different

319
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,800
individuals, right?
Families, groups, What was what

320
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,800
were some of the things that
shocked you that stood out to

321
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,500
you that maybe you weren't
prepared for?

322
00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:15,600
I mean, the hardest one is I
wasn't prepared to.

323
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,500
I wasn't prepared to become
friends with people and not

324
00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:22,100
because I didn't think I would
but just because, you know, like

325
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:26,000
you're in anthropology classes
and you learn about you just go

326
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,300
in, you get your data and you
leave and anthropology

327
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:32,900
textbooks, fail to remind you
that you can become friends with

328
00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:35,100
people at any point.
I think juncture here.

329
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:37,200
Decide that you're friends with
people.

330
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,600
And so I became friends with a
lot of people who I mean I would

331
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,500
consider them friends, I would
hope they would call me the same

332
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,300
and I became friends with a lot
of people who left

333
00:19:48,300 --> 00:19:51,400
fundamentalism, which is a
painful place to be.

334
00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:54,200
If you grew up in the some of
these groups and then you leave.

335
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:59,900
And so I think the hardest part
ultimately was hearing stories

336
00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:02,600
that are hard stories that are
abusive and painful I mean

337
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,600
fundamentalism.
For all the things that, you

338
00:20:05,608 --> 00:20:08,300
know, I'm again, good friends
with a lot of good

339
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,000
fundamentalist, polygamist
people, but for every one of

340
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,600
those stories I also have
stories that are really hard and

341
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,800
really abusive, and in many
cases, violent and I wasn't, I

342
00:20:18,808 --> 00:20:22,400
don't think I was prepared to
have to sit through that and sit

343
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,300
through hearing a lot of those
stories and becoming friends

344
00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:29,300
with people who went through
really horrendous situations.

345
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,000
I've talked very openly that one
of my good friends died.

346
00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:40,100
He was his name was right
Jeff's, and he died a few years

347
00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:43,000
ago and I wasn't prepared to
have to do that, right?

348
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,200
Like, you don't think when you
decide to study group of people,

349
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:48,100
you don't think that you're
gonna end up at a funeral at

350
00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:49,900
some point, but sometimes you
do.

351
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,700
And so I wasn't prepared for
that part of studying, a group

352
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:57,200
of people is having that group
of people, not.

353
00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,500
I mean Mormon, the Mormon
fundamentalist I know are not

354
00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:04,000
just subjects to me right there.
People that I'm friends with.

355
00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:07,600
That I talk to that, you know, I
love so many of the women that

356
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,300
I've gotten to know and so I
wasn't prepared for what that

357
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:14,000
comes with a lot of the time and
a lot of the time.

358
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:21,100
It's not it's not fun, right?
So there's two things I want to

359
00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:25,600
dovetail that response off of
because because I find it

360
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,600
interesting.
How is it that you are able to

361
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:33,700
event you know, become friends
with folks but yet still Still

362
00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:36,200
be able to cause you, I would
think you'd have to maintain a

363
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,000
certain arm's length distance.
So you could tell the truth,

364
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,300
right?
Like I have a good friend,

365
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:44,200
right?
Not a Mormon fundamentalist.

366
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,100
I'll go to the mat for that guy.
Every day of the week, right?

367
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:49,800
Until he proves me wrong.
I'm like, that's my guy.

368
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,800
I'm, you know, the, the typical
ride and I kind of guy, right.

369
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:58,000
How is it?
You can can, can have that that

370
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:04,700
friendship and yet maintain that
level of I don't know, almost

371
00:22:04,700 --> 00:22:07,000
that scientific view where
you're just studying.

372
00:22:07,500 --> 00:22:11,800
How does that work?
I don't, I mean, my advisor.

373
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,700
She has joked that, like, I went
into the field and never came

374
00:22:16,700 --> 00:22:17,900
home.
Okay.

375
00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:20,400
And that's true.
It's true.

376
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,400
And I mean, there are there
absolutely cons to that.

377
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:29,800
I think one of the things that
I, when I kind of think of my

378
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:33,000
work that I appreciate about the
work, is that That I do is I

379
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:38,400
don't, I'm not gonna lie for you
and I'm not, I'm not gonna like

380
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,700
not tell a story because you
don't want, like, I don't have

381
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:46,800
those Investments.
Now, if that means, you know, if

382
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,400
this is a situation of like, I
mean, I don't know.

383
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,800
I can't think of an example
without would be different.

384
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,300
But I mean, the law of Purity
article that we were talking

385
00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:59,200
about off, air is probably the
best example that the law of

386
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,500
Purity is not talked about in a
lot of fundamental Most groups

387
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:05,800
its history is not talked about.
It's not talked about and I

388
00:23:05,808 --> 00:23:08,500
heard about it and I was like,
well, I'm going to tell the

389
00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:12,900
story and I got it.
I got a lot of eyebrow reasons.

390
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:16,400
I think of people being like
what and I was like, well, I'm

391
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,500
gonna do it anyway and I mean, I
wouldn't have done it in a way

392
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:21,500
that was hurtful for anything.
No one said, please don't and

393
00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:23,000
that would've been a different
conversation.

394
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:28,300
No one said don't do that, but I
was like, I wasn't willing to

395
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:31,800
like be part of this, like, not
talking about something.

396
00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:34,300
Just because I noticed no one
was talking about it.

397
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:39,300
And so I wrote about the love
Purity and in and it was just

398
00:23:39,300 --> 00:23:41,600
fine which I've read the
article, it's a great art.

399
00:23:42,100 --> 00:23:45,900
I mean, it's it's you did a
great job in it II.

400
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:49,500
Don't I don't see an issue with
it actually a funny story about

401
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:52,200
it.
I was at the BYU Maxwell

402
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,200
Institute for a summer seminar
on religion and Science and we

403
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,700
had to write about something
sciency and so I was like oh I

404
00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:05,000
want to write about this thing
which I'm sure you and, you

405
00:24:05,008 --> 00:24:09,000
know, actually I invite I
invited Ben Shafer.

406
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,400
I invited him to because I did a
public talk up for the Maxwell

407
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,900
Institute, on my research and I
invited Ben, I mean, I was very

408
00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:19,700
open about what I was.
I didn't pretend I wasn't

409
00:24:19,700 --> 00:24:24,400
writing about this and so at the
Joseph F Smith building good

410
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,800
presented on the wall Purity
which was an experience.

411
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,000
But I remember when I first
heard about it I was Driving to

412
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,900
Tonopah with the missionaries
the the Peterson group

413
00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:36,800
missionaries.
And the reason I decided this

414
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,500
was something I wanted to write
about which I think is

415
00:24:38,500 --> 00:24:42,800
representative of the question
you asked is they were just I

416
00:24:42,808 --> 00:24:45,500
was, I was interested in the
temple recommend, how they do

417
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:48,600
that.
And one of them, he was kind of

418
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,700
a new missionary and he was just
like going over the stuff and he

419
00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:55,100
was like, oh, and you keep a lot
of Purity.

420
00:24:55,800 --> 00:25:00,800
And I noticed the other two were
kind of like, But no, what are

421
00:25:00,808 --> 00:25:04,300
you doing?
Oh, and I was like, oh, what's

422
00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:06,200
that?
And I thought and I was like,

423
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,100
oh, is that just the way that
you say, the law of Chastity is

424
00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:13,500
not the same thing and one of
them was like, no, you're going

425
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:17,700
to have to ask a woman in the
group and I was like I was like

426
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,400
and I'm not of course, like the
more this car ride is going.

427
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,700
The more was like, well now I
need to know everything like now

428
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,900
I really want to know and so we
get there.

429
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,200
And I'm staying with this was my
first time ever going out there.

430
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,500
No, this was my second time
going out there.

431
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:42,600
So the woman that I stayed with
she, you know, knew me we had

432
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,600
had conversations.
She's great.

433
00:25:47,100 --> 00:25:50,400
And she was like, cleaning up
after dinner, and I was like,

434
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,400
hey, can I ask you something?
What's the law of Purity?

435
00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:58,500
And I thought she was gonna drop
the enchilada sauce is holding

436
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:00,600
and Like, who told you about
this?

437
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:06,400
And I was like a missionary.
And so, I mean, she was a great

438
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,900
idea because I, again, I didn't
know what this was.

439
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:11,400
I was just, like innocently,
like, asking anyone who would

440
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,200
answer about this thing that I
again, I didn't know that I was

441
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,100
asking about people's sex life,
like I didn't know that, that's

442
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:21,500
what I was doing, she was a
great sport.

443
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:27,200
She, you know, told me the Basin
of the doctrine and which for

444
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,200
those who don't know, is a
doctor.

445
00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:33,100
And that comes from the master
line, about sex during

446
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:36,200
procreation and gestation sex
during gestation and lactation

447
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,600
periods.
And I was like, well I need to

448
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,800
know everything about this now.
And so I found out everything

449
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,300
about it which was great because
I mean, I was able I gave it to

450
00:26:48,308 --> 00:26:50,900
a few people.
I talked to a few people and I

451
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,200
know of at least a couple women
who were interested to know the

452
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,800
history of the doctrine that
they, you know, are part of a

453
00:26:56,808 --> 00:27:00,000
group that practices it to my
knowledge, the It was the only

454
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,500
group that does for.
I mean generally the AUB has not

455
00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:10,900
and I actually talked to you on
at a book signing for Craig

456
00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:12,400
posture and Miriam Watson's
book.

457
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:18,900
Mary Ann well like her husband
was there and she was like,

458
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:25,500
Christina wrote about the love
Purity and he was like, oh no I

459
00:27:25,508 --> 00:27:27,300
mean, he's great.
He's you know, like all these

460
00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:30,300
people in this story are great,
but It was just like this moment

461
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:32,700
of, like, who's talking to you
about this.

462
00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,000
Like you're not.
You're a gent like who is

463
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,500
talking to you about this like
in detail enough for you to

464
00:27:37,508 --> 00:27:39,500
write a book like an article
about it?

465
00:27:40,700 --> 00:27:43,200
But I think that's kind of
Representative is that like I

466
00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:46,200
was always where I hope that I
was always very kind and asking

467
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:47,700
about questions.
I was always curious.

468
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:52,600
I was not malicious and asking,
but I was also like going to

469
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,600
find out the history.
Yeah they're right.

470
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,800
And and let's let's and Good on
those folks for talking to you,

471
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,300
right?
Because if you have to go, look

472
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:06,100
for it, who knows what you're
going to find, right?

473
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,200
I mean, you could have found,
I'm sure there are all sorts of

474
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,500
things out there that that, you
know, could have phrased it in

475
00:28:12,500 --> 00:28:15,600
accurately or had an axe to
grind or whatever.

476
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,300
So, at least good on them for
talking to you about it.

477
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:21,200
I mean, one of the things that
was so interesting.

478
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,500
I mean I'll plug a few people
who are great and while I

479
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:29,000
reached out to an wild, she's
like a, you know, an old Woman

480
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,800
in the fundamentalist movement,
was married to still talk Kraut.

481
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,800
And so, like, my asking her was
probably weird, but she was that

482
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,700
she was great.
And she gave me a really tiny

483
00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:44,000
white book called The Higher law
of Chastity.

484
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,900
Published by gems publishing
that talked a little bit about

485
00:28:46,900 --> 00:28:49,500
it.
She was great in helping me with

486
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,800
that.
And then, if anyone's interested

487
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,000
in a lot of Purity, real already
drooling, all red sister, she

488
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,900
went hard for the doctrine like
if there's an apologist, For the

489
00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:01,000
law of Purity, it is real, all
red.

490
00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:06,100
She wrote a book called polluted
fountains about, like all of the

491
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:12,000
disastrous polluted practices in
like dating and marriage.

492
00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:17,000
And she is ride or die but she
was ride or die for the laws of

493
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,500
Purity.
So if anyone's interested in

494
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:23,900
like the primary sources, real
all, read your girl, really, I

495
00:29:23,900 --> 00:29:27,400
didn't even know that book
existed but now I want to go

496
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:33,000
read it.
So So, all right.

497
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,700
My transition into something, a
little heavier.

498
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,600
Okay.
And With the, under the banner

499
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:51,100
of Heaven coming out and the one
about Jeff's on Netflix and I

500
00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:54,300
feel like there's almost this
fundamentalist moment, right?

501
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:57,500
Where as fundamentalist, we
either get to get up now and

502
00:29:57,500 --> 00:30:05,400
tell the story or we're going to
forever be dictated to by what's

503
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,100
going on right now.
You talk about seeing and I know

504
00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:11,900
this is a hard question and I
apologize.

505
00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:17,200
But you talked about seeing
hearing about violence within

506
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:23,100
these families in your opinion.
Do you think that Mormon

507
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:27,900
fundamentalism?
Because of its very nature, or

508
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:30,300
whatever.
Do you think it?

509
00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:33,000
It's a violent religion.
So to speak.

510
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:37,100
No.
I mean is it inherently violent?

511
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:41,300
Like I mean that's I mean what
I've told a few people about

512
00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:45,900
this is I think Mormonism, kind
of right now.

513
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:51,800
Owns the like drama genre of TV
but Catholicism has owned the

514
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:57,900
horror genre for a while, right?
And I mean, the reality and I'm

515
00:30:57,900 --> 00:31:01,500
very open about my own tradition
is Roman Catholicism has a

516
00:31:01,508 --> 00:31:05,600
problem with sex abuse.
I'm not going to pretend, that's

517
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,600
not true.
It would be a joke if I looked

518
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,700
at you and pretended that that
wasn't true.

519
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:14,500
Does that mean that all
Catholicism is that no?

520
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:17,000
Does that mean it's there?
And I should talk about it.

521
00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:19,800
Yeah, and I think Mormon
fundamentalism needs to do the

522
00:31:19,808 --> 00:31:23,500
same thing.
I agree with you, 100%.

523
00:31:23,500 --> 00:31:28,200
I And part of it.
I find it.

524
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,700
One of those things where I kind
of get where where it comes

525
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:35,000
from, right.
Not the violence part, but the

526
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,600
part about let's just stay quiet
and let's stay under the radar

527
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,800
and maybe maybe at best.
They'll, you know, laugh at us a

528
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,400
little bit, right?
The issue with that.

529
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,900
Is that when you do that, you're
kind of forcing yourself back

530
00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:54,100
into the Shadows.
And it's in the shadows that all

531
00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:57,700
that nasty crap keeps happening
over and over and over.

532
00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:02,500
And I'm I tend and granite.
I'm a Libertarian by Nature,

533
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,300
right?
I tend to be very like, you do

534
00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:06,800
you, bro?
Throw those doors open.

535
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,900
Let's talk to people.
Let's if they're what.

536
00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:13,400
If there was one stereotype
about Mormon fundamentalist,

537
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:15,900
right?
I've never met an uncle.

538
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,000
I've never met a non
libertarian, one really?

539
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,700
Really.
I mean I'm sure there are but

540
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:25,200
yes and I have probably I guess
you probably kind of have to

541
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,100
have that in order to do, do
some of the stuff that we want

542
00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:30,700
to do.
I get that.

543
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:34,500
But yeah.
No, I tend to be like, just

544
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:38,200
throw those doors open, let's
have the conversation because if

545
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,900
we as fundamentalist don't have
this conversation and we're not

546
00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:44,100
involved.
We're going to let everybody

547
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:49,400
else.
Didn't dictate to us what it is

548
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,300
and I mean that's why I like,
when like, when Kody Brown and

549
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:57,500
his family went on TLC.
Like that's hard, that's hard.

550
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,500
But they were like, we're going
to tell our story.

551
00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:04,600
I mean, the same with with Joe
Gardner and his family, the

552
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,900
darker family, like they were
like, well we're going to we're

553
00:33:07,900 --> 00:33:10,500
going to be us in public and
we're going to tell our story

554
00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:14,400
and we're going to be who we are
and having family and I mean

555
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,900
unique Foster and his family.
Donna, The Rock.

556
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:20,300
Like I think, I think that's
important.

557
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,500
I think fundamentalist Mormons
to the at, to the extent that

558
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:25,400
it's safe for their family.
Of course, I mean in certain

559
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,100
States, it's safer than others,
of course, and Utah.

560
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,700
Now, as of 2020, that is safe to
do.

561
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,300
But I mean, there was a lot of
discourse online about Mormons

562
00:33:38,300 --> 00:33:39,700
should be telling Mormon
stories.

563
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:44,000
Those people who are saying that
we're LDS but fundamentalist can

564
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,900
and should Tell their story for
sure.

565
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,700
Warren told a very loud story
and other people need to now,

566
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:55,100
tell a story.
Yeah.

567
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:59,100
No, I agree, totally.
And that's and, and I think that

568
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:04,100
just helps to dispel all the
rumors, all the crap, that's not

569
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:08,100
true.
And then and this is where I

570
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:10,800
lose some.
Folks, it also may be causes us

571
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,500
as fundamentalist to reflect on
ourselves a little bit going.

572
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:15,800
Okay.
Is this is this particularly

573
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,199
right?
I mean should we be looking at,

574
00:34:17,207 --> 00:34:19,400
is this a tradition?
Is this a Doctrine?

575
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,100
What is this?
And then you know maybe have

576
00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:26,199
some honest conversations with
ourselves as well.

577
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:30,699
I think that that's vitally
needed as well at this juncture.

578
00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:34,100
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean I think especially I

579
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:36,100
think that's one of the reasons.
I'm so interested in like the

580
00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:38,800
history of certain doctrines in
fundamentalism.

581
00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:41,600
I mean, the priesthood ban is
something that Moroni Jessup and

582
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,500
are going to talk about it.
Sunstone about when did it

583
00:34:44,500 --> 00:34:46,100
become a fundamental like when
did that?

584
00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:49,900
Come something part and parcel
to the fundamentalist movement,

585
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,300
most doctrines and
fundamentalism.

586
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:56,100
I don't want to say most, but
many doctors and fundamentalism.

587
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:01,000
Don't just, I mean, they're not
these lot, like fundamentalism

588
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,800
has this this belief and like,
doing exactly what Rick, no one

589
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,500
is really doing everything.
Brigham Young did, right?

590
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:10,100
Everyone is doing some
variation.

591
00:35:11,300 --> 00:35:14,200
I mean, something like placement
marriage which Warren became

592
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,000
notorious for people are
Watching this on keep sweet

593
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,600
right now and placement marriage
doesn't emerge as something.

594
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,900
They're really talking about
until the 1940s.

595
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:27,700
When they start happening under
John, why Barlow?

596
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:29,800
This isn't a long-standing
tradition.

597
00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:33,800
And so, I think having those
hard conversations of what is

598
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,200
the history of what we do.
Why do we do what we do?

599
00:35:37,300 --> 00:35:40,900
Can it change Panic?
Not, I think those are hard

600
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:44,200
conversations but there that's a
healthy thing to do for any

601
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,400
group of people.
Yeah, I think a little bit of

602
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,100
self-reflection goes a long way
and and have some honest

603
00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:53,500
conversations and those are
tough to have, right?

604
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:57,400
I mean and to be honest with
you, not everybody in

605
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,400
fundamentalism is ready to have
that conversation.

606
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,800
Because if it's a public
conversation being in the public

607
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,300
isn't, I isn't really what they
want to do, right?

608
00:36:07,300 --> 00:36:09,200
I mean a lot of these folks
still bear.

609
00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:13,800
I don't know those those
societal scars from things like

610
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,500
short Creek and that sort of
thing, which really, you know,

611
00:36:16,500 --> 00:36:19,000
drove home.
This fact you know you be quiet

612
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,900
and you know you keep this under
wraps or you know we're going to

613
00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:25,400
get our kids are going to our
endanger sort of stuff.

614
00:36:26,700 --> 00:36:30,800
So I think it's it's it's one of
those things just out of

615
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,800
curiosity.
What was your thought on under

616
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:40,000
the banner of Heaven?
I liked it.

617
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:42,800
I know that that's a
controversial.

618
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,900
Take, I liked it.
I mean, I liked it.

619
00:36:48,900 --> 00:36:53,400
I so I don't watch a lot of TV.
I watch a lot of really trash

620
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,700
TV.
I watch 90 day fiancé pretty

621
00:36:55,700 --> 00:37:01,800
exclusively, so I don't watch a
lot of like good TV.

622
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,900
So when everyone was talking
about it's not written while I'm

623
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:06,700
like, I don't know.
I have no point of Reference.

624
00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:09,200
I literally watched people
dating across the world, like I

625
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,300
don't have a point of reference
for good television, but I was

626
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:17,100
interested in the story.
It told about Mormonism and I

627
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:19,600
thought it told the story of
multiple mormonism's really

628
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,600
well.
I think especially a lot of

629
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,400
people were kind of like what,
add up the sound like six.

630
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,700
When Dan goes to meet John
Bryant, then there's baptism

631
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:32,300
scene and there's this like,
like scandalous kiss and a hot

632
00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:34,000
tub, and everyone is like, what
the hell.

633
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:36,900
And I remember watching it and I
was like, Like they did John

634
00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:39,000
Bryant really well.
Right.

635
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,900
And so and I mean and they could
have done it a lot more

636
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:44,800
salacious if they had shown his
Temple endowment, right?

637
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:50,500
And so I was impressed with the
way that that's Mormonism in the

638
00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:54,600
show.
So it is Ron Lafferty, but so is

639
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,900
Brenda and I was really, I was
really happy with the way.

640
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:02,100
I mean I really love the finale
how they told Brenda story as

641
00:38:02,100 --> 00:38:06,700
this heroic.
As a one, Mighty and strong up

642
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:10,700
in her own, right?
And so I really liked how they

643
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:13,100
told the story Mormonism.
You know, the big critique, is

644
00:38:13,100 --> 00:38:16,000
it argues that Mormonism is
inherently violent.

645
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,100
I don't like the book.
I don't like krakauer's book.

646
00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:25,800
And so, I understand the concern
there, but I think it, I mean, I

647
00:38:25,808 --> 00:38:29,400
think it told the story.
Well, If you don't like the

648
00:38:29,408 --> 00:38:32,600
truth crime genre off, you're
not gonna like it but you also

649
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,800
don't have to like it.
You're allowed to not like it,

650
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:41,700
you know.
I, I watched every episode and

651
00:38:41,700 --> 00:38:45,000
the one I was most nervous about
is when they were showing the

652
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,400
temple endowment, right?
That one.

653
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,100
I was like, oh, here we go.
This is where it's going to go

654
00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:54,500
horribly horribly wrong and to
be fair, I felt like they did.

655
00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:57,200
It is Tastefully, as you could
do it, right.

656
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,300
I mean they They didn't go into
great detail.

657
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:05,000
They went into enough and let's
face it now with, you know,

658
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,100
guys, like Mike Norton that go
out and they record the ceremony

659
00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:12,500
and put it on online.
I mean, if we're looking to try

660
00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:15,400
to keep that Under Wraps, I get
it, but it's out there.

661
00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:18,900
So I felt like they did a good
job and and, and showing it.

662
00:39:18,900 --> 00:39:23,100
But yet being respectful, I like
how they did, you know,

663
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:24,600
integrate some history in there,
right?

664
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,700
Right down to the dream.
Mind they mentioned the Dream

665
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:29,900
Mining in and Episode and I
thought, you know that's you

666
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:32,500
know yeah I felt like they did
all right with it.

667
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,300
My biggest concern.
Oh go ahead.

668
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:39,000
I was I was gonna say I mean I
know I'm biased in that one of

669
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,000
my one of my best friend's was a
historical consultant for it.

670
00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:45,900
But what I think a lot of people
didn't realize is the other

671
00:39:45,900 --> 00:39:47,800
whose for our consultant Roy
Williams.

672
00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:53,800
He investigated the AED.
So this isn't this is these

673
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,300
aren't people who like don't
know, Honda mentalism, I mean

674
00:39:56,300 --> 00:40:00,200
pright was interested in joining
when he got home from his LDS

675
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,300
mission.
So I think that's also kind of

676
00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:03,900
an interesting component.
Onan is that these are people

677
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:10,100
who like were at least at one
point compelled, by by

678
00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:15,800
fundamentalism Right.
Yeah, I know.

679
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,500
I felt like all in all it was
fairly well done, my biggest

680
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:24,300
fear.
And it was, it was a concern.

681
00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:28,400
I never anticipated having.
If I'm being honest with you, it

682
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:35,000
was some family or some guy
sitting on his couch, who's been

683
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,400
a devout member of the LDS
church, his whole life, and he

684
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:44,200
starts getting obscure, Mormon,
Doctrine thrown at him and he

685
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,000
doesn't know what's happening,
right?

686
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,200
And, and that may be causes a
faith crisis because I don't

687
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:51,900
want to see the LDS church go
away.

688
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:56,200
I really enjoyed my time there
and that was my biggest fear is

689
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,600
that they were going to hear all
these obscure.

690
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,800
Mormon old-school doctrines that
they didn't know what to do

691
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,100
with.
And so I had an episode with Ben

692
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:08,400
Shafer, where we talked a little
bit about that, right?

693
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,300
And felt like and again it was
one of those times where I felt

694
00:41:11,300 --> 00:41:14,500
like maybe this is the time.
Now as fundamentalist, we got to

695
00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:17,500
step forward and just kind of be
like, don't lose your crap.

696
00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:20,000
Let's sit down and let's talk
about About this a little bit

697
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:24,900
before before you make a rash
decision because even though I

698
00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:27,600
felt like it did it did a fairly
good job.

699
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:30,000
There's so much.
There's so much to those

700
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,800
doctrines that just aren't
talked about because you don't

701
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,600
have time, right?
I mean, even though it's a

702
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,400
six-episode series, you don't
have time to do a deep dive on.

703
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,000
Mormon Doctrine to sort that
out.

704
00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:45,500
No, I mean I do think what?
I mean two of the scenes that

705
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:48,000
really struck me as being
perfectly done and they're

706
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,600
small.
The first one was, when Dan gets

707
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,700
a copy of The Peacemaker and he
like finds it as like a thrift

708
00:41:55,700 --> 00:42:00,800
store or something.
And how many people do we know

709
00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:02,700
who find a copy of Truth
magazine?

710
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:07,000
Like some used bookstore and
encounters fundamentalism and

711
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,300
joins, right?
I mean that is a tale as old as

712
00:42:10,300 --> 00:42:13,800
time.
That is a especially in like the

713
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,200
50s and 60s, I mean and 80 is
right?

714
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,900
I mean, the story I wanted to
unlock the I mean that is a tale

715
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:23,200
as old as time and so how they
depicted that I thought was

716
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,000
incredible but the other one and
it stick it is it sticks with me

717
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:34,400
was when Ron no damp one of
them, Dan Rahn who leaves his

718
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:38,000
disciplinary Council and he had
just gotten excommunicated and

719
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:44,700
he looks at the camera and
smiles and The moment of, oh,

720
00:42:44,700 --> 00:42:47,400
you have nothing to lose now,
right?

721
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:50,000
Like, and I think, and I was
full.

722
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,900
And when I saw that I was like,
I hope because I get asked a

723
00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:59,200
lot, I get asked a lot by all
these people, what like, how can

724
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,400
we stop people from joining
fundamentalism and my answer is

725
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,500
always do next.
Communicate them, right?

726
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:07,200
Like, don't turn them into,
don't turn them into

727
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,200
fundamentalist, right?
If you don't want them to be it.

728
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,800
And so the way they did, Pick a
time and I don't want that

729
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,100
sounds like I'm saying I was
excommunicated becomes a violent

730
00:43:16,100 --> 00:43:17,800
fundamentals, that is absolutely
not true.

731
00:43:18,300 --> 00:43:21,100
Joseph mustard was
excommunicated and became not a

732
00:43:21,100 --> 00:43:26,400
violent fundamentalist, but that
was a really significant moment

733
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:28,400
of.
Oh, like his membership in the

734
00:43:28,408 --> 00:43:32,500
LDS church was the last thing
like tethering him to any kind

735
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:36,700
of reality Yeah, it was the last
firewall right?

736
00:43:36,700 --> 00:43:39,000
Before he went and did what he
did.

737
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,500
And and to be fair, not
everybody that you 99.9 percent

738
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:46,800
of people who get
excommunicated, don't turn into

739
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,000
murderous religious zealots
right that.

740
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:55,100
But, but if your goal is to
prevent fundamentalism, you're

741
00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:57,200
100% right?
Don't don't turn them into

742
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,100
fundamentalisms by by throwing
them out.

743
00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:03,500
And and that's the one thing I
remember from my days, in the

744
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:07,400
LDS church that I got.
There's only one time I got

745
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,000
called into the Bishops office.
Before I went in, to say I'm

746
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:14,500
done.
And that was because I had I

747
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:17,300
taught some stuff out of the
Journal of discourses and it was

748
00:44:17,300 --> 00:44:19,600
pretty mild.
It was pretty mild.

749
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,300
Right.
But I was I was given this talk

750
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,900
and that old steak patriarch, I
went to him and I was like you

751
00:44:26,908 --> 00:44:29,800
got anything on.
Like I can't remember what it

752
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,600
was but I think it was like on
the establishment as iron.

753
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,000
And she's like, oh yeah.
Come on in and he shows me his

754
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,100
journal of discourses I'm like,
oh this is great stuff right?

755
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:43,000
And I get up there I only been a
member for about five years and

756
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:47,000
I'm like just spouting it off
and I just start seeing shifted,

757
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,600
you know, people shifting and
then you know I kind of glanced

758
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,400
behind me in the Bishops like
smiling.

759
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,900
But you can tell there's this
look of absolute horror.

760
00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:57,800
Like, don't go any further
please just stop.

761
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,600
Just stop, right?
Oh no, and it was the

762
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,300
establishment of Zion.
It wasn't even like the name.

763
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:04,300
Adams.
Why?

764
00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:08,400
I've no it wasn't.
It was nothing like that, it

765
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,200
was.
But I mentioned jod in Ho man,

766
00:45:12,900 --> 00:45:15,100
you could almost hear a
collective gasp, right?

767
00:45:15,100 --> 00:45:17,500
And I'm like, well I'm in it
now.

768
00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:19,800
So I'm just going to keep going
right?

769
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,000
Like get this out.
Oh no.

770
00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:25,300
And that was that brother in
Christ I could have told you.

771
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:28,600
Right.
Right well and I remember I did

772
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,100
have I did have a talk with that
old patriarch whereas like you

773
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:34,100
kind of set me up bro.
Right?

774
00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:37,300
Like you, you kind of you can't.
He's like you handled it really

775
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:39,100
well kid.
You did you did good.

776
00:45:39,100 --> 00:45:43,500
I'm like you suck.
I appreciate the time you took

777
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:49,400
with me but you saw it, right?
But what do you like LDS through

778
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,200
and through or was it LDS with a
wink and a nod?

779
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,800
Yeah, yeah, because like what I
mean, what's take patriarchy, is

780
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,300
handing, someone Journal of
discourses to teach out of so

781
00:46:02,700 --> 00:46:05,600
I'm trying not to give away too
much here because I never want

782
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,900
to put anyone in any
compromising positions.

783
00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:16,200
But we were in a very small
rural area, not in Utah and so

784
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,800
where you say we remember that
time where, you know, hey, this

785
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,200
isn't rough Stone Rolling or
this isn't what you read about

786
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,700
in some ways, it kind of was it
times where I was at, right?

787
00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:31,600
Where it would get real close,
right?

788
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,100
And it was just because I think
it was this tight-knit group of

789
00:46:35,100 --> 00:46:44,800
LDS, folks who had a lot of old
folks in it, and It was like the

790
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:49,400
old plural marriage thing where
it be like we don't practice

791
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:54,200
that it's a true principle right
kind of a thing, right?

792
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:58,900
And so it was it was a lot like
that right where you couldn't

793
00:46:58,900 --> 00:47:01,400
get anyone to say it from the
stand, but if you went to

794
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,200
somebody's house and they were
more than willing to have those

795
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:12,000
conversations with you, Or like
the the big tell is when the way

796
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,700
that, you know, is when people
are like Isis pain, the

797
00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:18,000
president of the church Nelson,
is the president of the Church

798
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:21,900
of the Church of?
Yep.

799
00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:24,900
I see what you're doing there.
Do you think he's the president

800
00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:27,800
of the priesthood vote silence?
Only okay.

801
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,600
Okay.
Yep, yep.

802
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:34,700
Oh yeah, no, I I in some ways
I'm very thankful that I joined

803
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:36,600
the LDS church where I was
right?

804
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:41,300
Because I A lot of older men who
were willing to have real honest

805
00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:44,600
conversations.
So in that was back in 95,

806
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,800
right?
And so when the internet gets

807
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,200
huge and really 95, the internet
was just coming online.

808
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:55,300
I mean you're talking about dial
up with y'all to just get online

809
00:47:55,300 --> 00:47:57,200
right?
And the pictures would load

810
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,900
race.
Lowly about two thousand three

811
00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:05,300
or four is the first time I can
really remember the internet

812
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:07,000
with a lot of salacious
material.

813
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:10,300
Material and to me, I felt
almost inoculated.

814
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,500
I guess would be the right term.
I didn't know how to phrase it

815
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:14,800
them, but I'm like, well, of
course, that's, that's their

816
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,000
right.
I mean, when people got freaked

817
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,000
out because they found out
Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

818
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:25,300
I was like, well yeah, I mean
It's been there the whole time,

819
00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:28,200
and I had to, I had to tone that
back.

820
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,100
I remember I was in an Elders
Quorum president.

821
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:32,200
See once where I was like, you
didn't know that, bro.

822
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,700
Like, we're you been right?
And so, I realized I had dial

823
00:48:35,700 --> 00:48:39,300
that back a little bit and be
like, okay, not everyone.

824
00:48:39,300 --> 00:48:45,900
Got got the memo I guess so, but
I remember, I remember a woman

825
00:48:45,900 --> 00:48:50,800
and I remember a woman Institute
Saying that polygamy started

826
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,300
when the Pioneers were crossing
the Plains.

827
00:48:53,300 --> 00:48:57,400
And I was like, oh yeah.
The other one that I like is

828
00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:00,900
when they say that polygamy was
around just because all a bunch

829
00:49:00,900 --> 00:49:04,300
of the men got killed, right?
That's, that's that's the other

830
00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:07,500
favorite when I was like mmmm?
No, not according to everything

831
00:49:07,500 --> 00:49:10,000
else.
I know, I'm also not according

832
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:17,000
to 132 right?
Look, 132 paints a very Clear

833
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:21,700
picture of.
What celestial marriage is

834
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:23,800
right?
I don't know.

835
00:49:23,900 --> 00:49:25,800
I mean I've also been hanging
out with fundamentals for too

836
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,700
long but I'm like well what else
do you think Celestial marriage

837
00:49:28,700 --> 00:49:32,000
is if not the principal right?
Absolutely.

838
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:38,700
So yeah, I yeah, I feel very
fortunate that I was raised if

839
00:49:38,700 --> 00:49:41,500
you will, in my LDS upbringing
in that small town, because

840
00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:44,800
there were just people willing
to talk about all the stuff that

841
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:50,700
you normally wouldn't get.
Um, I want to go back to maybe

842
00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:54,000
kind of your your, your academic
career here.

843
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:57,200
A little bit as you're sorting
through some of this.

844
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:02,100
I imagine you come across all
sorts of stuff as far as

845
00:50:02,100 --> 00:50:06,200
teachings, right.
How, what, what kind of process

846
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:12,600
do you use to determine what's
tradition and what's Doctrine?

847
00:50:14,500 --> 00:50:17,300
I mean, you're asking a girl
who's a Roman Catholic built on

848
00:50:17,300 --> 00:50:20,000
the twin pillars.
Scripture and tradition.

849
00:50:21,500 --> 00:50:23,300
And so that's a hard that's a
hard one.

850
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:32,000
I mean I You know, I don't
believe in the truth claims of

851
00:50:32,100 --> 00:50:37,300
Mormonism broadly defined and so
I don't have an investment in

852
00:50:37,300 --> 00:50:39,200
that like a personal investment
in the same way that a lot of

853
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,700
people do.
And so and also I mean, that

854
00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:45,600
coupled with my being Catholic
and like being part of a

855
00:50:45,607 --> 00:50:50,100
religion that like, goes hard
with tradition, I don't look at

856
00:50:50,100 --> 00:50:53,900
tradition negatively.
And so it's hard to parse out

857
00:50:54,300 --> 00:50:57,500
why that would matter or what
matters, I mean, but the other

858
00:50:57,500 --> 00:51:01,000
thing No, I guess to kind of
just say, it doesn't matter

859
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,700
which sounds bad but we're
missing is also a religion that

860
00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:07,300
has like the windows of Heaven
are open.

861
00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:11,000
Profits are still speaking.
The cannon in a lot of groups,

862
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:15,100
the cannon is still being added
to so it doesn't matter if it's

863
00:51:15,100 --> 00:51:16,800
just tradition of the Prophet
said it, right?

864
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,900
I mean something technically
right in Mormon in Mormonism,

865
00:51:21,300 --> 00:51:25,100
something rulon Allred said
math, there is just as much as

866
00:51:25,100 --> 00:51:27,200
something Brigham Young said
like technically right?

867
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:28,800
That's right.
That is supposed to be the A

868
00:51:28,808 --> 00:51:31,600
idea.
Like if the priesthood is

869
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,500
unchanged, if the priesthood is
the power of God on Earth, if it

870
00:51:35,508 --> 00:51:39,400
is how the world was created, if
it is the power by which you

871
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:44,400
know that the sea was split.
Then what it shouldn't be

872
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,700
different.
And so in my mind, when I look

873
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:50,000
at that I'm like well.
Maybe it's tradition but also

874
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,700
rulon Allred said it right,
right?

875
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,300
And I mean, the harder question,
the harder question than is,

876
00:51:57,300 --> 00:52:00,100
which prophet said it that ends
up being the harder one because

877
00:52:00,100 --> 00:52:05,000
if Jim harms, didn't said it,
Less people are going to give

878
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,100
that credibility than if rulon
Allred did which is going to get

879
00:52:08,100 --> 00:52:10,400
less care than it.
Joseph muster said it.

880
00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:13,200
Right?
No, that makes sense.

881
00:52:13,700 --> 00:52:17,600
I could see that.
So with that said, where it's

882
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,900
hard to parse out what's
tradition, and what's Doctrine.

883
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,400
Because as we were talking
before, right, about having

884
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:28,700
those internal debates, there's
got to be some way where that,

885
00:52:28,700 --> 00:52:34,500
that definition can be had.
Because if, if we can't separate

886
00:52:34,500 --> 00:52:37,900
tradition from Doctrine, we're
kind of in some trouble.

887
00:52:38,900 --> 00:52:40,600
Right.
Cuz then there's all sorts of

888
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:43,800
things that we can say.
Well yeah, we do that because

889
00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:47,600
we've always done that and then
you become the great an

890
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,200
abominable and you are.
Welcome to join us.

891
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:55,200
It's great.
I'll keep that in mind.

892
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,000
That that that's the extent of
my missionary work for my

893
00:52:58,000 --> 00:52:59,400
people.
That's awesome.

894
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,600
Well, that's pretty mild
compared to two other things.

895
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:08,900
I've seen so good on you.
Where do you see fundamentalism

896
00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:10,800
heading?
Because I do feel like

897
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,700
fundamentalisms at a Crossroads.
I feel like we're in a moment

898
00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:22,900
now where there's some decisions
that have to be made I, I see

899
00:53:22,900 --> 00:53:27,500
the independent movement growing
for many reasons.

900
00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:31,100
I think that's a hard but I
think, I think independent,

901
00:53:31,100 --> 00:53:35,700
Mormon fundamentalism.
I don't want to like put my

902
00:53:35,700 --> 00:53:39,200
stamp of approval on one thing
or another but independent,

903
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,500
Mormon fundamentalism.
I think makes sense historically

904
00:53:41,500 --> 00:53:45,500
given, what fundamentalism was
originally trying to do?

905
00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:49,100
The Council of friends was
pretty gung-ho on, not starting

906
00:53:49,100 --> 00:53:52,400
a church.
I mean, and whether or not

907
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,100
things change at a certain point
in the church wasn't apostasy

908
00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:57,200
that can be debated among
different groups.

909
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:03,300
So I think their idea has a
historic grounding but this new

910
00:54:03,500 --> 00:54:07,100
Were focus on establishing
churches, doesn't.

911
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,000
And I think a lot of that is
keeping a church together is

912
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:15,700
hard.
I mean, it is like, what?

913
00:54:17,300 --> 00:54:20,700
And so, because of that, because
of people like Warren because of

914
00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:27,100
concern for how how power Works
historically.

915
00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:30,200
In a lot of these groups, I see
the independent movement

916
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,200
growing.
I see if families are going to

917
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,800
be Come fundamentalist, I kind
of, for see them deciding to

918
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,800
just kind of do it on their own.
I think if you read, you know,

919
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,900
like the Wooly School of the
prophets, which I don't, I mean,

920
00:54:42,900 --> 00:54:44,100
I don't know.
I guess most people aren't

921
00:54:44,100 --> 00:54:46,500
reading those like the minutes
from the school of the prophets.

922
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:48,300
I don't know if you're going to
do that.

923
00:54:48,300 --> 00:54:52,600
I mean, we're like if you're
going to read Like master in

924
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:57,600
that era, I think a conclusion
would be to just become an

925
00:54:57,607 --> 00:55:00,200
independent practice polygamy.
You know, try to do consecration

926
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:01,200
with your neighbor, I don't
know.

927
00:55:01,500 --> 00:55:03,600
However, Independence are doing
it nowadays.

928
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:11,600
The downside is, you don't have
a temple yet but I think that's

929
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,600
kind of going to be the way that
fundamentalism old timidly goes.

930
00:55:16,500 --> 00:55:18,600
Now, what does that mean for
Centennial Park?

931
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,600
What does that mean for that
stock United Brethren?

932
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,200
I don't know.
No, I mean, I think they'll, I

933
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:24,600
think they'll continue to exist.
Of course.

934
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,200
This isn't me like casting, uh,
you're gonna destroy her, I

935
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,000
don't think that's true.
But I think, if I were to have

936
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,500
to say, what people are going to
be gravitating toward, I think

937
00:55:33,500 --> 00:55:36,300
independent fundamentalism is
kind of what I foresee

938
00:55:36,300 --> 00:55:40,100
happening, right?
And you get, do you get a

939
00:55:40,107 --> 00:55:45,300
feeling from your research?
Are those movements growing?

940
00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:48,800
I mean is, is the independent
route growing?

941
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,900
I mean, are there people leaving
the LDS church?

942
00:55:52,900 --> 00:55:55,800
Are they leaving other groups to
to be independent?

943
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:57,900
Is there anything that you can
see in your research?

944
00:55:57,900 --> 00:55:59,800
That would point that out one
way or another?

945
00:56:01,900 --> 00:56:04,500
I mean, that's a hard question
because I think independent

946
00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:10,600
fundamentalism in a lot of ways
is still Is still in the 1930s

947
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:15,300
and 40s in that in just in the
fact that people don't feel like

948
00:56:15,308 --> 00:56:17,000
they have to leave the church to
be an independent

949
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,600
fundamentalist, right?
In the 1920s, 30s 40s.

950
00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:22,300
People aren't leaving the LDS
church.

951
00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:27,000
They don't get forced out there.
Just doing their like, meeting

952
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,500
with the priesthood Council, but
then they're also going to

953
00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:31,500
church on Sunday.
And like, you just don't ask

954
00:56:31,500 --> 00:56:33,300
questions and it just you just
do your thing.

955
00:56:34,700 --> 00:56:36,600
And so I think that the families
that go that way aren't

956
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:41,100
necessarily leaving the church.
I know families that and people

957
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:45,600
who until they for one reason or
another have to leave for a

958
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:48,700
kicked out of the LDS church,
their LDS but then they also

959
00:56:49,300 --> 00:56:55,200
think Adam is God and maybe are
considering polygamy and so, I

960
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,400
mean, I like I think those
families are more common than

961
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,100
not and and of course they're
not counted in the number of how

962
00:57:01,100 --> 00:57:04,700
many fundamentalist there are.
But I would say that that's a

963
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:08,000
lot more common of an experience
than we give it credit for.

964
00:57:09,100 --> 00:57:12,800
You know, I can even speak to
that because when I started

965
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,600
Living, plural marriage, I went
to church with both my wife.

966
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,200
I was in the others corn
presidency.

967
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:27,500
How did you do?
To this day.

968
00:57:27,500 --> 00:57:29,800
I don't know to this day, I
don't know.

969
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:35,000
I mean, I think so, one of the
things that I in terms, like one

970
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,900
of the reasons why, I mean, I
argued for the decriminalization

971
00:57:38,900 --> 00:57:41,000
of polygamy for many reasons,
but one of the reasons that I

972
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:46,300
thought it was so sad that women
I knew who looked at themselves

973
00:57:46,300 --> 00:57:51,000
as wives and mothers and even
like queens and priestesses were

974
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,700
pretending to be a babysitter
to.

975
00:57:52,700 --> 00:57:55,200
Like, avoid like, that killed
me.

976
00:57:55,300 --> 00:57:58,500
It killed me too.
That women were that and men

977
00:57:58,500 --> 00:58:00,400
were having to pretend not to be
the father of their children.

978
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:04,500
It, it angered me.
I mean, I remember, I remember

979
00:58:04,500 --> 00:58:08,800
the first time I went to the
Petersen group, I mean, that's

980
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,200
the name of the group and these
two little girls ran up to me

981
00:58:13,100 --> 00:58:15,900
and one girl was just like hi,
who are, you know, they're

982
00:58:15,900 --> 00:58:19,000
little, they're young girls and
like I'm coming into their home,

983
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:19,800
right?
They're not.

984
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,900
And so their guard is,
everyone's guard is down like

985
00:58:21,900 --> 00:58:23,300
I'm in there.
I'm in their place.

986
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:27,600
Like this is they live here and
You know, Ricky mistake.

987
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,100
I was like oh who are your
parents?

988
00:58:29,100 --> 00:58:33,100
Because I didn't know them, but
I knew a lot of the adults and

989
00:58:33,100 --> 00:58:36,100
one of the little girls said, my
mom is so and so my other mom

990
00:58:36,500 --> 00:58:39,000
and the first little girl like
punched her arm.

991
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:42,700
It's like you don't tell her
that and I mean of courtly of

992
00:58:42,700 --> 00:58:43,500
course.
Right.

993
00:58:43,500 --> 00:58:47,600
Like they're of course they did
that like this girl because I

994
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:49,700
could be anyone, I could have
been an FBI agent.

995
00:58:49,700 --> 00:58:53,700
I'm not.
And that killed me to know that.

996
00:58:53,700 --> 00:58:57,100
Like these people are having to
protect like and so how Like,

997
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:03,000
how did you get around that?
So again, I was in a very rural

998
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:10,000
area, and when we moved there,
The woman who would become my

999
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,400
second wife with literally next
door.

1000
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,500
And then, there was nobody on
either side of us for a good

1001
00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:20,400
Mile.
And so it made it easy in the

1002
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,800
sense that we put in a gate in
the back, right?

1003
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:27,200
And I just went back and forth
and it didn't raise any

1004
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:31,700
suspicions.
As far as Church goes, I've

1005
00:59:31,700 --> 00:59:35,100
fulfilled my callings right?
I did I get, oh, I supposed to

1006
00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:38,800
rather than me, sit in between
Amber.

1007
00:59:38,900 --> 00:59:42,600
And the, if I say her name, you
have got to tell me.

1008
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:50,200
So I can edit it later, but I
don't know right between between

1009
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:55,000
Amber and and the woman who was
my second wife, And rather than

1010
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,600
sit in between them, they would
sit next to each other.

1011
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:03,000
And I shared the story on the
last podcast I did, but I'll

1012
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,200
share it again because I think
he might get a kick out of it.

1013
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,800
I'm Elders, Quorum president and
I go in.

1014
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:14,600
I get they call me as I'm
practicing pro-marriage, right?

1015
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:20,600
And I'm like, yeah, I'll take
the calling and so I just had a

1016
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:23,000
good group of Brethren who just
loved each other, right?

1017
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:24,800
They'd been there for years,
they were well established.

1018
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,200
So home, teaching numbers went
through the roof right back

1019
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,100
before it was called Ministry.
Whatever.

1020
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:36,300
And it does so well.
That they actually call a rep

1021
01:00:36,300 --> 01:00:38,300
out.
Well, a rep says I want to come

1022
01:00:38,300 --> 01:00:41,200
talk to your elders, Quorum
president an area seventy

1023
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:43,700
because the home teaching
numbers went up.

1024
01:00:43,700 --> 01:00:46,000
Now again it wasn't because of
me, it was because of the work

1025
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,300
the Brethren are putting in in
my quorum.

1026
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,400
So pardon the expression, I hope
I don't offend you up but when I

1027
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:57,600
get the text from the stake
president saying hey Elder so

1028
01:00:57,600 --> 01:00:59,300
and so wants to meet you to
discuss.

1029
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:01,500
Why your home teaching?
And so successful.

1030
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:06,200
I remember both Amber and the
other woman who was my wife, I

1031
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,000
just went.
Oh, okay.

1032
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,900
And I remember, I looked at my
went oh shit, right?

1033
01:01:10,900 --> 01:01:16,500
Cuz You know, your top, these
are representatives from the

1034
01:01:16,500 --> 01:01:18,700
lord, they're going to look
right through you and they're

1035
01:01:18,700 --> 01:01:21,100
going to be able to see
everything you've done.

1036
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,900
So I gotta ask you on this for
like two weeks, right?

1037
01:01:24,900 --> 01:01:28,300
Two weeks.
I got a stew on this and we're

1038
01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:31,500
making plans, right?
Okay, look, this goes bad, you

1039
01:01:31,500 --> 01:01:33,300
know?
And I'm sure it's going to come

1040
01:01:33,300 --> 01:01:36,000
out because he's an area
seventy, right?

1041
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:39,300
He's just under an apostle,
we're gonna, you know, we're

1042
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:41,500
just going to have to grin and
bear this, and then we're going

1043
01:01:41,500 --> 01:01:42,200
to move.
Move.

1044
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:44,100
Right?
That's that's the thought,

1045
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,700
right?
We'll take our Xing and then and

1046
01:01:46,700 --> 01:01:48,600
then we're gone.
Yeah.

1047
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,500
Well, to be honest, I know it
sounds silly.

1048
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,100
I don't know you've moved to,
you know, Maryland and back,

1049
01:01:54,100 --> 01:01:55,500
right?
I don't have a problem pulling

1050
01:01:55,500 --> 01:01:57,400
that trigger.
If I have to, I'm like whatever

1051
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:01,600
to protect my family, we'll do
whatever we got to do, I will

1052
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:04,900
get through this.
So the day of the interview

1053
01:02:04,900 --> 01:02:07,700
comes and I'm just sweating
bullets.

1054
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,900
I mean, just I'm cantankerous at
work.

1055
01:02:10,900 --> 01:02:12,200
I'm sweating bullets.
Bad.

1056
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:16,700
I'm like, you know my office
just leave me alone and I go to

1057
01:02:16,700 --> 01:02:20,500
the meeting and I sit down and
he sits down and across from me

1058
01:02:20,500 --> 01:02:22,300
and he's very personable and
very nice.

1059
01:02:22,300 --> 01:02:25,800
And I'm like, here we go.
Read my soul because I know you

1060
01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:29,100
can.
And he's asking me, you know,

1061
01:02:29,100 --> 01:02:31,900
how's this, how's this work in,
you know, how are you getting

1062
01:02:31,900 --> 01:02:33,800
these kind of results?
And I'm like, really, I think I

1063
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,000
just got a good group of
Brethren, you know, we do our

1064
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,200
follow-up interviews, I think
that's a lot of it.

1065
01:02:40,300 --> 01:02:43,400
And he just kind of leans back
in his chair and as he leans

1066
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,500
back, he I mean, he's looking me
in the eye on Mike and here

1067
01:02:46,500 --> 01:02:48,500
comes right here.
It comes.

1068
01:02:49,300 --> 01:02:55,600
And he just says Brother David.
I feel inspired to tell you that

1069
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,400
whatever it is you're doing in
your personal life, you need to

1070
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:06,900
keep doing that.
Yes, yes, and I walked out of

1071
01:03:06,908 --> 01:03:10,800
there and I got home and both
the girls were just on the front

1072
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:13,500
porch.
You know, anticipating what was

1073
01:03:13,500 --> 01:03:15,600
going to happen.
I was sweating it far more than

1074
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:19,300
they were sweating it, but I get
out and they're like, well what

1075
01:03:19,300 --> 01:03:21,500
do you say?
And I said he can, he said, keep

1076
01:03:21,500 --> 01:03:26,200
practicing plural marriage and
then that was Oh boy.

1077
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:33,400
Yeah that was that was that so
yeah I mean I we never got found

1078
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,600
out.
It was.

1079
01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:41,300
Yeah and again I know it's not
normal but that's just kind of

1080
01:03:41,300 --> 01:03:47,300
how it went down and then she
ended up leaving and I have this

1081
01:03:47,300 --> 01:03:50,500
crazy idea that I'm just going
to forget everything I learned.

1082
01:03:50,900 --> 01:03:52,500
I'm just going to go back to the
LDS church.

1083
01:03:52,500 --> 01:03:56,000
I'm going to keep my mouth shut.
And I'm just going to put my

1084
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:58,600
head down and up until about 20,
19.

1085
01:03:58,700 --> 01:04:03,200
I was, I was an active member of
the LDS church and then there

1086
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:06,000
were some change.
There were some changes made to

1087
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,300
the temple.
And again, I was in a leadership

1088
01:04:08,300 --> 01:04:11,600
position in the ward.
I live live in now that, you

1089
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,200
know, I still in the same
neighborhood where there was

1090
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:17,600
just too many changes and I
just, I had a moment one, Sunday

1091
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:19,900
morning, getting up during
covid.

1092
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:25,000
Right.
Righteous covid started where I

1093
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,400
just got up and we started
having some really interesting

1094
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,000
conversations at home, right?
And they were great,

1095
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,200
gospel-centered conversations.
And remember one Sunday morning,

1096
01:04:34,200 --> 01:04:37,300
I got up to have to go to a
meeting on zoom and I'm like,

1097
01:04:37,300 --> 01:04:41,600
what the hell am I doing, right?
I'm not true to who I am.

1098
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,300
I'm not in.
So I basically threw in the

1099
01:04:44,308 --> 01:04:50,600
towel at that point and Walked
away but I mean, Bobby Hart I

1100
01:04:50,607 --> 01:04:54,200
would be hard to go back.
So it was it was it was so

1101
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:58,500
infuriating, right?
But I kept doing this thing

1102
01:04:58,500 --> 01:05:03,300
where I was like, well, if at
least there's a Temple there,

1103
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:05,500
right?
Maybe it's not everything but

1104
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:08,800
maybe it's enough and maybe this
was just my I did all sorts of

1105
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:11,500
mental gymnastics to try to make
this work right?

1106
01:05:12,300 --> 01:05:16,600
May end and to be fair, I had
seen enough horror shows and

1107
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:21,300
fundamentalism that I was super
nervous about the idea of going

1108
01:05:21,300 --> 01:05:25,000
forward, right?
So I was like, okay if if I can

1109
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,900
just do this bit of Bending over
backwards and making it work and

1110
01:05:28,900 --> 01:05:31,700
it just breaks, right.
I mean, once, you know, you

1111
01:05:31,700 --> 01:05:36,000
know.
And so, yeah, that's, that's

1112
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:37,900
kind of, that's kind of how it
went down.

1113
01:05:37,900 --> 01:05:42,300
And to be fair, my wife, who's
just an absolute rock star of a

1114
01:05:42,300 --> 01:05:44,600
woman.
She knew that day would come.

1115
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:48,000
In fact, I remember I never
wanted to mourn too much in

1116
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:51,900
front of my wife, when, when my
other wife left.

1117
01:05:51,900 --> 01:05:55,800
So I never want her to feel like
she wasn't enough So I was like,

1118
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,100
okay, just do your morning and
private and one night she found

1119
01:05:59,100 --> 01:06:03,200
me kind of pissing and moaning
myself on the, on the deck.

1120
01:06:03,900 --> 01:06:05,800
And I was like you know, I'm
never doing this.

1121
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:08,100
Again, this is stupid.
I'm just going to go back to the

1122
01:06:08,100 --> 01:06:11,900
LDS church and keep my mouth
shut and she and I'm never doing

1123
01:06:11,900 --> 01:06:14,200
this ever ever again.
And she just looked at me and

1124
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:17,600
she smiled and she said, if
we're called to do it again and

1125
01:06:17,607 --> 01:06:19,700
we're going to do it and she
just turned around walked back

1126
01:06:19,700 --> 01:06:23,700
into the end of the house.
But yeah, I mean yeah.

1127
01:06:23,700 --> 01:06:27,000
She's Awesome.
She really is but yeah so that's

1128
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,600
I'm sorry that was a long answer
for a short question.

1129
01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:36,600
That's that's kind of how no
that's that's that's kind of how

1130
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,600
we made it work.
I'm so curious about your

1131
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,500
second.
I mean, you can cut this out the

1132
01:06:43,500 --> 01:06:45,100
driven independent second
ceiling.

1133
01:06:46,300 --> 01:06:48,200
I did I did.
Yep.

1134
01:06:48,700 --> 01:06:50,500
Yep.
Well, we'll talk more.

1135
01:06:51,300 --> 01:06:55,500
I remember I remember I remember
asking and while I probably

1136
01:06:55,500 --> 01:06:58,700
bothered her so much just
constantly being like who still

1137
01:06:58,700 --> 01:07:01,400
do dog, didn't who still get
Ogden Utah.

1138
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:03,500
Good.
I'm like every time she would

1139
01:07:03,500 --> 01:07:07,600
just be like Christina.
Yeah because you've got very

1140
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:11,800
close to her chest but I've been
so obnoxious to her about it.

1141
01:07:12,500 --> 01:07:14,200
We'll talk we'll talk when I'm
done.

1142
01:07:14,200 --> 01:07:16,000
If you have time, we'll talk for
a few minutes.

1143
01:07:16,100 --> 01:07:18,700
One out one, we're done
recording and I'll fill you in

1144
01:07:18,700 --> 01:07:23,200
on a few more details.
But yeah, we basically what it

1145
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:25,500
was is I went to Ogden krauts
work, right?

1146
01:07:25,500 --> 01:07:28,300
That was the only thing as far
as fundamentalism, that was

1147
01:07:28,300 --> 01:07:31,500
online.
That you could readily access,

1148
01:07:31,700 --> 01:07:33,800
right?
About 2008.

1149
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:38,300
No, noggin was long dead by
then.

1150
01:07:38,700 --> 01:07:44,500
No, well, no, no.
It wasn't nobody seal this.

1151
01:07:44,500 --> 01:07:48,500
What it was is I'm sure you've
read about it.

1152
01:07:48,500 --> 01:07:51,400
The, the idea of a solemn
Covenant, where it's basically

1153
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,900
like a lesser married.
I shouldn't say marriage.

1154
01:07:54,900 --> 01:07:57,700
Its lesser Authority, but it's
something that will stay in

1155
01:07:57,700 --> 01:07:59,600
place until you find proper
Authority.

1156
01:08:00,100 --> 01:08:02,200
And that was the idea, that's
what we did.

1157
01:08:03,100 --> 01:08:05,900
And then the idea was okay, now
we got to go, find proper

1158
01:08:05,900 --> 01:08:08,400
Authority, right?
And so, because it's not like

1159
01:08:08,400 --> 01:08:12,300
the Bishops going to do it so
or, you know, we can go into the

1160
01:08:12,300 --> 01:08:14,200
temple.
Although I did take my second

1161
01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:18,600
wife into the temple, many many
times, Yep.

1162
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:24,500
Yeah, I was yeah, no, it was
not, it was not.

1163
01:08:24,500 --> 01:08:26,200
So we'll talk more if you're
interested.

1164
01:08:26,500 --> 01:08:32,700
But anyway, I yeah, I was a bit
bold in a little stupid anyway.

1165
01:08:35,100 --> 01:08:40,100
We did that and that's how we
kind of did that while we were

1166
01:08:40,100 --> 01:08:44,899
trying to find proper Authority.
Another question I got for you,

1167
01:08:44,899 --> 01:08:48,600
what's as you go into your
research and then you present

1168
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:51,000
right?
Do you ever present to folks who

1169
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:55,600
maybe aren't fundamentalists or
familiar with fundamentalism?

1170
01:08:55,600 --> 01:09:01,100
You find it what what is it you
think is the biggest animal

1171
01:09:01,100 --> 01:09:04,800
stereotype or misconception that
you fight against or shouldn't

1172
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:06,700
even say fight against the.
The one thing that you

1173
01:09:06,700 --> 01:09:09,100
illuminate that maybe catches
people off guard?

1174
01:09:09,899 --> 01:09:13,800
I mean so most of the people I
present to are not Don't study

1175
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:17,100
more, I mean, I presented Mormon
history, Association quite a bit

1176
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:20,100
but also represent the American
Academy of religion and people

1177
01:09:20,100 --> 01:09:21,700
there at they study.
Every religion.

1178
01:09:21,700 --> 01:09:23,300
Like they don't.
They're not familiar with

1179
01:09:24,899 --> 01:09:29,000
Fundamentalist Mormon ISM.
Actually I never presented in

1180
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:36,300
front of Fundamentalist.
Until I met Che this year date.

1181
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:44,600
David Watson of the AUB came to
my panels and I was like, oh, I

1182
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:48,300
like I saw him out of the corner
of my eye and I was like, oh,

1183
01:09:49,300 --> 01:09:51,800
What's the present of the
priesthood right there?

1184
01:09:53,500 --> 01:09:55,800
And it was, I mean, it was night
I was presenting on Joseph

1185
01:09:55,800 --> 01:10:00,600
muster and so and he it was it
was great to be able to, you

1186
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:04,800
know, talk to him about.
The man who he's in priesthood.

1187
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:08,200
Secession secession with.
So, but that's a rare

1188
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:09,800
occurrence.
Most people have no idea.

1189
01:10:10,500 --> 01:10:14,200
Probably, the wildest one is
misconception.

1190
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:16,700
But also what was most shocking
is in 2018?

1191
01:10:18,900 --> 01:10:23,800
Yeah, 2018, I presented about
women who convert to

1192
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:27,300
fundamentalism often time like
sometimes without their

1193
01:10:27,300 --> 01:10:30,800
husbands, who just joined the
movement without some of them

1194
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,400
leave their husbands to join and
some have never been Great.

1195
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:37,500
And people were shocked that
there are women who joined this

1196
01:10:37,500 --> 01:10:42,600
movement, that was shocking to
people, or I mean women who it

1197
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:44,700
was their idea in their
marriage.

1198
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,000
That's kind of always the one
that people are like, there's no

1199
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:52,100
way but it it, I mean, I know, I
know these women, I'm not lying,

1200
01:10:52,100 --> 01:10:55,200
like, I know women you do, too.
We all like, I mean, if you're a

1201
01:10:55,208 --> 01:10:57,500
part, if you're in the world of
Mormon fundamentalism, you know,

1202
01:10:57,500 --> 01:11:00,900
women who want to join the
movement and that is that

1203
01:11:00,900 --> 01:11:02,800
there's a historic precedent for
that.

1204
01:11:02,900 --> 01:11:08,300
That so probably that and then
recently I wrote an article on

1205
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:12,900
mother's and heaven and heavenly
mother.

1206
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,900
It's kind of having a moment and
I'll be as Mormonism where

1207
01:11:17,100 --> 01:11:19,900
you're not supposed to talk
about her and it just I mean

1208
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,300
Taylor Petrie, the editor of
dialogue, the journal was

1209
01:11:23,300 --> 01:11:25,700
something of a prophet in his
own right and that he had been

1210
01:11:25,700 --> 01:11:28,800
compiling, a special issue on
heavenly mother, right?

1211
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:32,700
And it like came out like the
week before the week after the

1212
01:11:32,700 --> 01:11:39,200
church said kind of clarified.
The don't talk about her and I

1213
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:43,100
opened it with the him that the
AUB have my mother.

1214
01:11:43,700 --> 01:11:47,700
And a lot of people were really
surprised that son of Mentalist

1215
01:11:47,700 --> 01:11:49,700
have a heavenly mother, I mean,
of course, they do.

1216
01:11:49,700 --> 01:11:51,700
They have many gods a
polygamist.

1217
01:11:51,700 --> 01:11:55,300
Like, they don't just have one,
right, bunch.

1218
01:11:56,300 --> 01:11:59,500
And as part of that article, I
talked about in some groups,

1219
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:04,500
there is ordination of women and
that was really shocking to a

1220
01:12:04,500 --> 01:12:09,200
lot of people that
fundamentalist women to varying

1221
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:10,400
degrees.
And of course, this isn't I

1222
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,200
never sugarcoat polygamy.
I don't spoiler.

1223
01:12:13,500 --> 01:12:16,000
I know, like all your listeners,
you know, me are like, we know

1224
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:20,600
Christina.
I don't like polygamy and so

1225
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:25,000
kind of this idea that women who
are polygamist, sometimes get

1226
01:12:25,000 --> 01:12:28,500
Authority in their churches,
through various means that was

1227
01:12:28,500 --> 01:12:31,300
really shocking to people.
So I guess it's usually things

1228
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:36,900
women.
That people are just like,

1229
01:12:36,900 --> 01:12:40,400
there's no way that there's no
way that women are happy in

1230
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:42,600
this.
And, of course, that's not all

1231
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:44,700
women.
I mean Warren Jeffs exist.

1232
01:12:44,700 --> 01:12:47,600
Like a lot of there's a lot of
abuse but also there are women

1233
01:12:47,600 --> 01:12:50,200
who are wanting to be
fundamentalist there.

1234
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:53,800
Always I mean tell wild really
want this life.

1235
01:12:56,500 --> 01:13:00,100
Yeah.
No it and in fact and again I'll

1236
01:13:00,100 --> 01:13:03,100
share with you when we're
offline for recording here.

1237
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:09,900
That's how I came into it.
It was Amber and her best friend

1238
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:16,200
studying about stuff and yeah, I
mean it was I I avoid.

1239
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:20,600
I was like no no no but yeah,
no.

1240
01:13:21,500 --> 01:13:25,500
And I'm glad you said that
because one of the One of the

1241
01:13:25,500 --> 01:13:28,400
big ones that I encounter all
the time, right?

1242
01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:32,000
No matter who I'm talking to you
was, as you know, oh, you're

1243
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:34,900
those, women must be just beat
down and don't get me wrong.

1244
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,400
There are some I'm not here to
tell you that.

1245
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:40,400
There's not.
But there are a lot of strong

1246
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:46,400
Women Within fundamentals and
and yeah, yeah, that's one of

1247
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:49,200
the things that has always kind
of bugged me as this idea that

1248
01:13:49,900 --> 01:13:54,200
that they must be somehow beaten
down or whatever.

1249
01:13:54,700 --> 01:13:58,800
Yeah, and through and there's
various ways that that's not, I

1250
01:13:58,808 --> 01:14:03,200
mean fun, most fundamentalist
group to do any kind of Temple

1251
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:06,700
work are doing.
S, anointings women are given

1252
01:14:06,700 --> 01:14:08,300
particular Authority in the
second anointing.

1253
01:14:08,300 --> 01:14:12,400
They always have have been in
that article.

1254
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:17,500
I published part of Fred
Colliers ordination booklet.

1255
01:14:17,500 --> 01:14:20,100
That talks about here are date.
Like, women were being ordained

1256
01:14:20,100 --> 01:14:23,700
alongside their husband.
And so, I mean, that happens.

1257
01:14:23,700 --> 01:14:26,300
I mean, it's a both.
And like both of those and both

1258
01:14:26,300 --> 01:14:28,600
of those can exist in
fundamentals and at the same

1259
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:31,600
time and I think that this is
one of the hardest things

1260
01:14:31,600 --> 01:14:35,100
generally and in my own
tradition, right?

1261
01:14:35,100 --> 01:14:39,200
I mean abuse happens in my own
tradition but also I love my

1262
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:42,400
priest.
Books can be true and there can

1263
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:45,200
be abuse and fundamentalism but
also there can be like really

1264
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:47,500
wrath stories of women doing
cool things.

1265
01:14:47,500 --> 01:14:51,200
Both of those can be true at the
same time, right?

1266
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:56,000
You know, it's interesting and
dive I kind of thought about

1267
01:14:56,000 --> 01:15:00,600
this a lot is that for the first
time ever?

1268
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:06,800
at least in my time as as a
fundamentalist, even one in

1269
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:11,900
hiding, I feel like There's an
opportunity to talk about things

1270
01:15:11,900 --> 01:15:15,800
that even mainstream LDS.
People are hungry for, right?

1271
01:15:15,900 --> 01:15:20,300
When when there's a apostle from
the LDS church that says we just

1272
01:15:20,300 --> 01:15:22,000
don't know anything about
heavenly mother.

1273
01:15:22,300 --> 01:15:27,000
I'm like, yeah, we do.
We actually really do, right.

1274
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:31,000
I mean, like, it may be
uncomfortable for you, but we

1275
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:35,500
actually do know those things.
And, you know, this idea of, you

1276
01:15:35,500 --> 01:15:39,700
know, the ordain women movement,
I'm like it was, you know, There

1277
01:15:39,700 --> 01:15:45,900
are a lot of lot of historical
accounts of Relief, Society,

1278
01:15:45,900 --> 01:15:49,500
president's giving blessings
and, and doing those things for

1279
01:15:49,500 --> 01:15:53,900
for the sisters.
And so it's a weird space.

1280
01:15:53,900 --> 01:15:57,800
I sometimes feel that that
fundamentalist occupy and the

1281
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:00,700
sense that a lot of the
questions that are getting

1282
01:16:00,700 --> 01:16:05,600
answered now or are begging for
answers, I feel like

1283
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:09,000
fundamentalism in within LDS
circles, I should, I should

1284
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:11,900
specify By that with within
those lbs circles its

1285
01:16:11,900 --> 01:16:14,600
fundamentalism.
Who ultimately always kind of

1286
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:21,300
had the answer all along and I
think it takes even something

1287
01:16:21,900 --> 01:16:25,700
something as Oh, go ahead.
Sorry.

1288
01:16:26,500 --> 01:16:27,200
Nope.
Keep going.

1289
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:28,400
I think there's a delay.
That's why.

1290
01:16:28,700 --> 01:16:30,300
Yeah, I know.
There's a little bit of a delay.

1291
01:16:31,000 --> 01:16:34,600
I was just going to say, I think
we're at a point where we can

1292
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:36,700
give some of those answers.
Now they're going to be

1293
01:16:36,700 --> 01:16:38,800
uncomfortable answers know,
there's going to be a lot of

1294
01:16:38,808 --> 01:16:41,800
LDS, people who don't want to
hear that and I don't think

1295
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:45,200
that's something we should ever
force is fundamentalist but I

1296
01:16:45,200 --> 01:16:47,000
don't think there's anything
wrong with getting that out

1297
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:50,300
there.
Yeah I mean even something as

1298
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:56,900
Base level as who's God's God?
Hmm.

1299
01:16:57,700 --> 01:17:03,300
Yeah, we know and that's that's
a hard one.

1300
01:17:03,300 --> 01:17:07,700
Like that's a hard one because
you know, as God once was we

1301
01:17:07,700 --> 01:17:12,100
have the couplets and ends in
the LDS church, the idea of

1302
01:17:12,108 --> 01:17:14,200
Eternal progression stand.
The idea that God was once a

1303
01:17:14,208 --> 01:17:16,400
man.
But the big kind of I mean my

1304
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:18,300
lingering question then is like
all right.

1305
01:17:18,300 --> 01:17:22,900
Well who's Grandpa God like
who's he And like from

1306
01:17:22,900 --> 01:17:27,300
fundamentalism, like I know his
name is Jehovah in some groups

1307
01:17:27,500 --> 01:17:31,100
and that's something that that
has an answer.

1308
01:17:31,300 --> 01:17:35,000
Historically.
Yeah, absolutely.

1309
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:40,300
So yeah, I sometimes feel like
it's fundamentalist we occupy

1310
01:17:40,300 --> 01:17:45,700
this weird space where Certainly
from like, the more feminist

1311
01:17:45,700 --> 01:17:50,500
parts of the LDS church, there's
a lot of answers to be had in

1312
01:17:50,500 --> 01:17:53,200
fundamentalism.
The problem is, is it walks

1313
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:58,700
hand-in-hand with polygamy and
it, it can create a lot of

1314
01:17:59,100 --> 01:18:05,400
cognitive dissidence.
Yeah, I mean that's a hard.

1315
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:09,300
It's a hard thing, especially,
with women's ordination and

1316
01:18:09,300 --> 01:18:15,500
heavenly mother in in Mormon
cosmology, there is a heavenly

1317
01:18:15,500 --> 01:18:18,900
mother.
She comes with polygamy right.

1318
01:18:18,900 --> 01:18:23,900
There is is being ordained,
Queen and Priestess,

1319
01:18:24,300 --> 01:18:26,200
historically, that meant
polygamy.

1320
01:18:26,200 --> 01:18:29,000
And if you look at the biggest
Advocates of have of talking

1321
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:33,300
about heavenly mother, I mean
the one is Eliza snow.

1322
01:18:33,500 --> 01:18:34,300
Right?
I mean she wrote.

1323
01:18:34,300 --> 01:18:40,100
Oh, My Father.
Eliza snow was like I mean, can

1324
01:18:40,100 --> 01:18:42,100
make an argument that she came
up with it, right?

1325
01:18:42,100 --> 01:18:45,500
I mean, she's the one that like
we know this Doctrine from first

1326
01:18:45,900 --> 01:18:49,200
and she was simultaneously, one
of the biggest Advocates of

1327
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:54,800
polygamy, like that that it was
a very in meshed reality in 19th

1328
01:18:54,800 --> 01:18:57,000
century Mormonism.
Yeah.

1329
01:18:57,500 --> 01:19:01,800
Yeah, it's yeah.
It's an interesting space and

1330
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:06,200
it's kind of an interesting time
because not only do we have

1331
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:10,600
Those kind of questions being
asked but we also have things

1332
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:14,400
like under the banner of heaven
and we have have you know, the

1333
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:17,300
one on Netflix.
Where again I just feel like

1334
01:19:17,300 --> 01:19:21,800
we're in this fundamentalist
moment where we could really

1335
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:23,200
step forward now.
Right.

1336
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:25,600
I don't think we have to worry
about persecution.

1337
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:28,000
Like we did back in the old
days, right?

1338
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:31,600
I think certainly if you're
abusive you should have

1339
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:35,200
something to fear but if you're
not abusive and you're living

1340
01:19:37,300 --> 01:19:40,400
And I'm saying this from an
outsider's perspective and

1341
01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:42,300
alternative lifestyle.
Well, there's a ton of

1342
01:19:42,300 --> 01:19:45,300
alternative Lifestyles out there
now and I feel like we're in a

1343
01:19:45,300 --> 01:19:48,700
spot where maybe it's time.
We take that step forward and

1344
01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:50,700
just let some of that knowledge
out.

1345
01:19:50,700 --> 01:19:53,800
Yeah, I mean that was our bit I
mean that was the big thing that

1346
01:19:53,900 --> 01:19:55,800
I mean there's multiple Avenues
of approaching like

1347
01:19:55,800 --> 01:20:01,300
decriminalization but that was
the big one that we approached

1348
01:20:01,300 --> 01:20:05,000
it with is, like, what is there
to gain by continuing to force

1349
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,200
people?
Into the Shadows.

1350
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:09,100
Like what are we gaming by
doing?

1351
01:20:09,100 --> 01:20:14,300
This polygamy has been illegal
for over 60 years and Warren

1352
01:20:14,300 --> 01:20:15,900
Jeffs.
Still existed, right?

1353
01:20:15,900 --> 01:20:21,000
So and the great irony, if there
was ever someone that we were

1354
01:20:21,000 --> 01:20:23,500
going to prosecute for polygamy,
it would have been him and we

1355
01:20:23,500 --> 01:20:26,000
didn't.
Yeah, it was not prosecuted for

1356
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:29,300
me.
So what is it that our polygamy

1357
01:20:29,300 --> 01:20:31,700
laws have done?
They have they've caused a lot

1358
01:20:31,700 --> 01:20:35,100
of hurt for people and they have
pushed a religion into the

1359
01:20:35,100 --> 01:20:40,400
shadows and They've created a
spectacle and I wouldn't say you

1360
01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:43,700
know I don't know and maybe I'm
looking at it too simplistic.

1361
01:20:43,700 --> 01:20:47,300
I mean your you've certainly
done your share of research so

1362
01:20:47,300 --> 01:20:52,300
correct me if I'm wrong but I
can at least make a think a

1363
01:20:52,308 --> 01:20:54,300
fairly compelling argument that
the whole reason.

1364
01:20:54,300 --> 01:20:58,500
Warren Jeffs was able to do what
he was able to do was because

1365
01:20:58,500 --> 01:21:02,100
they had to live in the shadows.
Had that been out in the open,

1366
01:21:02,700 --> 01:21:04,800
right?
Had they not been marginalized,

1367
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:07,200
maybe that's a different story.
Maybe not.

1368
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:12,600
But that short Creek, raid did
nothing but force that into the

1369
01:21:12,600 --> 01:21:16,300
shadows and then gave a dictator
and a tyrant the opportunity to

1370
01:21:16,300 --> 01:21:19,400
say, see the world is coming for
us.

1371
01:21:19,700 --> 01:21:24,100
So we have to be isolated and
isolation.

1372
01:21:24,100 --> 01:21:25,800
He could do all sorts of bad
stuff.

1373
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:31,000
Oh yeah, I mean what happens
when you take a group of people

1374
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:35,400
and you look at them and say,
you can't go to the police and

1375
01:21:35,400 --> 01:21:38,700
you're not lying because there's
a precedent for what happens if

1376
01:21:38,700 --> 01:21:42,400
you do.
It will not end.

1377
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:46,300
I mean, there's audio of Warren.
Jeffs teaching children about

1378
01:21:46,300 --> 01:21:49,500
the raid.
The 53 raid, like he actually

1379
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:55,200
did this, and there is something
there's a lot to lose when

1380
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:57,300
people are abused, but can't go
to the police.

1381
01:21:57,900 --> 01:21:59,700
Because they'll lose their
children like a lot.

1382
01:21:59,700 --> 01:22:04,800
There is a lot to lose there,
but there's also a lot to lose

1383
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:08,700
when you have people, whose
marriages aren't legal and their

1384
01:22:08,700 --> 01:22:10,700
children can't get health
insurance, right?

1385
01:22:10,700 --> 01:22:15,700
And there's only there's a lot
to lose by keeping this system

1386
01:22:16,700 --> 01:22:18,100
in the shadows.
Yeah.

1387
01:22:19,100 --> 01:22:22,400
So tell me about that process
that you helped out with and I

1388
01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:27,600
can't remember the name of the
bill again, H be something if I

1389
01:22:27,700 --> 01:22:30,400
Correctly.
Yep, SP 1002.

1390
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,600
So when you did you, were you
one of the ones that got to go?

1391
01:22:34,600 --> 01:22:39,800
Talk to lawmakers about it?
Yeah, I talked to multiple reps

1392
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:43,000
and senators and I also
testified at the house

1393
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:47,300
committee, and the Senate, not
the Senate, I'm sorry.

1394
01:22:47,500 --> 01:22:51,100
Yeah.
I testified at two of the

1395
01:22:51,108 --> 01:22:56,200
hearings so I don't know which
ones those were one of them was

1396
01:22:56,200 --> 01:22:59,400
the house Judiciary.
So anyway, yeah I talked to a

1397
01:22:59,407 --> 01:23:02,900
lot of reps, it was a wild
experience.

1398
01:23:02,900 --> 01:23:06,000
I mean as like a gentile woman
being like, let me tell you why

1399
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:09,900
polygamy it needs to be
decriminalized but I remember

1400
01:23:09,900 --> 01:23:15,500
one of the like one of the Just
kind of, I mean there are two

1401
01:23:15,500 --> 01:23:16,900
moments that really stuck out to
me.

1402
01:23:16,900 --> 01:23:22,900
The first was a representative.
He was explained, I liked stated

1403
01:23:22,900 --> 01:23:24,400
my case.
I only had a certain amount of

1404
01:23:24,407 --> 01:23:29,900
time and he was like, oh
polygamy had its Heyday but it

1405
01:23:29,907 --> 01:23:38,000
doesn't happen anymore.
I was like Oh, it's like what?

1406
01:23:39,300 --> 01:23:41,300
Why?
And then the other weird one I

1407
01:23:41,300 --> 01:23:47,000
went in to meet with a rep with
a polygamist woman and this tile

1408
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:50,100
is really highlighted that
people, imagine polygamist women

1409
01:23:50,100 --> 01:23:52,400
only in Prairie dresses, right?
So like, whatever they're

1410
01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:55,900
imagining of polygamy was it was
certainly not the woman who I

1411
01:23:55,907 --> 01:23:58,400
was with.
And the person was like, well,

1412
01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:03,300
if you would ever just meet a
polygamist woman sitting next to

1413
01:24:03,300 --> 01:24:07,100
one, And I told the rep, I was
like, I'm sitting by one.

1414
01:24:08,100 --> 01:24:10,900
And so she like shared her story
about why this mattered to her

1415
01:24:10,900 --> 01:24:15,400
and why she was coming forward
as like a polygamous woman, but

1416
01:24:15,400 --> 01:24:18,700
it was just like this weird
moment of like, yeah, I do know

1417
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:24,600
about polygamy like pretty well
actually I mean but also at the

1418
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:27,300
same time it was very hard
hearing people.

1419
01:24:27,300 --> 01:24:30,700
I mean there were some people on
the other side of that.

1420
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:36,200
There were a lot of people the
other side who I deeply respect

1421
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:41,200
women who left really harmful
dangerous situations, abusive

1422
01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:43,600
situations.
And there were men who left

1423
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:46,500
really dangerous situations and
so there's a lot of people.

1424
01:24:46,500 --> 01:24:48,900
There were a lot of people on
the other side that I respect

1425
01:24:48,900 --> 01:24:52,500
deeply but then there were also
people who are just like,

1426
01:24:52,500 --> 01:24:59,000
concerned citizens and I'm like,
I don't No, I don't know if your

1427
01:24:59,500 --> 01:25:02,700
goal is being a concerned
person, but that, I mean, one of

1428
01:25:02,708 --> 01:25:07,000
the things that was hard, was
having to sit and hear the

1429
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:12,300
really hard stories and Young on
the other side of the room,

1430
01:25:12,400 --> 01:25:14,600
knowing that you're going to
testify against people who had

1431
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:19,900
very traumatic experiences.
And my I mean, my only answer to

1432
01:25:19,900 --> 01:25:25,800
that my own and it's the answer
that I'll continue to give and

1433
01:25:25,800 --> 01:25:29,200
my only answer is you had all
these traumatic experiences

1434
01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:34,300
while polygamy was illegal.
Right, right.

1435
01:25:34,300 --> 01:25:37,900
No, you're you're right and the
legal illegal.

1436
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:42,000
Yeah.
And that's always the hard part,

1437
01:25:42,000 --> 01:25:43,800
right?
Is because you never want to

1438
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:48,000
make somebody's experience feel
minimalized or any of those

1439
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:50,800
other things.
So at the same time you got to

1440
01:25:50,808 --> 01:25:53,500
kind of, you know, just call it
like you see it.

1441
01:25:53,500 --> 01:25:58,700
That that would have been hard.
So do you think the bill passed

1442
01:25:59,100 --> 01:26:03,800
was there anyone that voted?
Added for the bill that you

1443
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:05,600
didn't think would vote for the
bill.

1444
01:26:07,200 --> 01:26:09,500
You think you guys change
anybody's mind?

1445
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:16,800
In the house which was wild, it
was wild to like, see a

1446
01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:21,700
unanimous vote and then in the
Senate, only three people voted,

1447
01:26:21,700 --> 01:26:24,800
no one of them.
We knew would vote.

1448
01:26:24,800 --> 01:26:26,500
No, we were never going to
change his mind.

1449
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:31,800
He ran hb2 14, which was the
bill that made bigamy of violent

1450
01:26:31,800 --> 01:26:35,800
crime, a year or a year before.
So we knew that he was going to

1451
01:26:35,900 --> 01:26:40,800
go that way.
There were a couple that I That

1452
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:43,700
we didn't know and you could see
at least two of them.

1453
01:26:43,700 --> 01:26:46,200
I remember pretty distinctly
watching that as the vote was

1454
01:26:46,200 --> 01:26:49,000
happening and I could see them
like looking around at what

1455
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:53,500
they're like colleagues were
doing and there was momentum,

1456
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:57,800
you know, of this is clearly a
landslide, he will started.

1457
01:26:58,800 --> 01:27:03,500
All of them, kind of did it, but
it was three people voted, no

1458
01:27:03,500 --> 01:27:06,400
one of them actually wasn't
present and then like called in

1459
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:08,200
and said that they want their
vote to be counted as a.

1460
01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:10,500
Yes.
So it ended up being only two

1461
01:27:10,800 --> 01:27:15,700
which is wild voted against it.
And I think the reason that is,

1462
01:27:15,700 --> 01:27:17,400
we ran it as a harm reduction
issue.

1463
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:22,200
And when I talk to polygamist
people, fundamentalist people

1464
01:27:22,300 --> 01:27:25,500
on, this is something that is
hard to hear, but I think it's

1465
01:27:25,500 --> 01:27:31,000
important.
People don't care about

1466
01:27:31,000 --> 01:27:33,900
fundamentalist religious
freedom, they never have.

1467
01:27:34,900 --> 01:27:38,200
The religious freedom of
polygamists has never mattered

1468
01:27:38,300 --> 01:27:41,400
in the United States.
That is hard to hear, but it's

1469
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:43,900
true.
So if you argue about, if you

1470
01:27:43,907 --> 01:27:46,200
argue this based on religious
freedom, that's not going to get

1471
01:27:46,200 --> 01:27:47,900
you anywhere.
People have heard that argument

1472
01:27:47,900 --> 01:27:49,000
before.
This isn't you know you're not

1473
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:52,000
going to walk in and recite the
First Amendment and someone's

1474
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:54,900
going to be like wow I haven't
thought about that they have

1475
01:27:54,900 --> 01:27:59,100
they don't care.
The other one is talking about

1476
01:27:59,100 --> 01:28:01,100
alternative Lifestyles.
People don't care.

1477
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:03,300
People are going to be like will
pull from these different.

1478
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:06,100
You are the slippery slope.
Fortunately right polygamy is

1479
01:28:06,100 --> 01:28:09,100
the slippery slope that I've
been warned everyone about and

1480
01:28:09,100 --> 01:28:13,500
so people won't care polygamists
and fundamentalist people.

1481
01:28:13,500 --> 01:28:17,800
What, what people care about is
how this is actually going to

1482
01:28:17,800 --> 01:28:20,800
help stop abuse, how this is
going to help support women, how

1483
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,800
this is support and the harm
reduction effort, the harm

1484
01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:27,100
reduction lens of looking at
polygamy, is the winner for this

1485
01:28:27,100 --> 01:28:30,100
issue.
It is it is what will

1486
01:28:30,100 --> 01:28:34,300
ultimately, I hope not only
decriminalize nationally, but it

1487
01:28:34,300 --> 01:28:36,100
also So be that legalizes
polygamy.

1488
01:28:37,400 --> 01:28:39,300
Do you ever see it being
legalized?

1489
01:28:42,100 --> 01:28:44,400
I mean, that's my heart.
I know, I know that this is a

1490
01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:46,500
Hot Topic.
I know a lot of fundamentalist

1491
01:28:46,500 --> 01:28:48,900
want to decriminalize but not
legalized because they want the

1492
01:28:48,900 --> 01:28:53,100
state out of.
I know, I know I would like it

1493
01:28:53,100 --> 01:28:55,400
legal.
I know that the barrier to that

1494
01:28:55,400 --> 01:28:58,100
is it would take revision of the
tax code, it would take a

1495
01:28:58,100 --> 01:29:01,600
revision of how health
insurance, it would take a lot

1496
01:29:01,600 --> 01:29:05,700
of work.
So of course, the first goal is

1497
01:29:05,700 --> 01:29:07,900
a national decriminalization.
I do think that's going to

1498
01:29:07,900 --> 01:29:10,600
happen.
One day, I think a stupid Little

1499
01:29:10,600 --> 01:29:13,700
Mists shocking, don't just live
in Utah.

1500
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:20,300
Shut up, really.
I know, I know I when I found

1501
01:29:20,300 --> 01:29:27,500
out that there were polygamists
in Arizona, I didn't know.

1502
01:29:30,400 --> 01:29:34,900
I know wait until you hear that
short Creek was in Arizona.

1503
01:29:36,900 --> 01:29:42,400
Yeah, so I mean when when people
here as I know But I think

1504
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:44,300
that'll happen.
I think legalization has to

1505
01:29:44,300 --> 01:29:46,000
happen when.
I mean, I would like it too.

1506
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:49,000
I want women to be able to get
alimony if they leave.

1507
01:29:49,000 --> 01:29:51,300
I want children to be able to
have health insurance.

1508
01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:57,100
I want men to be responsible for
their wives to provide health

1509
01:29:57,100 --> 01:29:59,700
insurance to provide care for
their children.

1510
01:30:01,100 --> 01:30:03,900
I want there to be a
responsibility that comes with

1511
01:30:03,900 --> 01:30:06,600
living the principle like a
tangible, temporal

1512
01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:11,900
responsibility.
And I I don't think that would

1513
01:30:11,900 --> 01:30:15,000
Warren Jeffs had.
Had had have 78 wives.

1514
01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:17,600
If he had to provide health
insurance for every single one?

1515
01:30:17,900 --> 01:30:20,900
No, no.
He would not know.

1516
01:30:20,900 --> 01:30:26,600
You're 100% correct.
And this is where like you said

1517
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:29,500
that, most fundamentalists are
always Libertarians.

1518
01:30:30,000 --> 01:30:33,600
I'll say this to you about
Libertarians, we all hedge a

1519
01:30:33,608 --> 01:30:36,700
little bit, right?
And this is one of those issues

1520
01:30:36,700 --> 01:30:38,900
where I tend to hedge, right?
And go.

1521
01:30:39,400 --> 01:30:42,300
Go a little bit more.
Like, okay maybe not just

1522
01:30:42,300 --> 01:30:45,200
decriminalization but
legalization is the route

1523
01:30:45,300 --> 01:30:51,200
because I have six kids, right?
For me and my wife had and then

1524
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:56,200
we adopted a set of twins.
I love my kids with my whole

1525
01:30:56,200 --> 01:31:01,900
heart.
The thought of having to have my

1526
01:31:01,900 --> 01:31:08,100
kids, not call me, dad breaks,
my heart, likewise.

1527
01:31:08,800 --> 01:31:13,400
Likewise, if you're a dirtbag
and you're practicing this from

1528
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:17,400
a dirtbag standpoint, you know,
you're asking to be on the hook,

1529
01:31:17,700 --> 01:31:22,700
you need to pay.
Point Blank.

1530
01:31:23,100 --> 01:31:27,700
And so that's that's in the mom.
Your child should have health

1531
01:31:27,700 --> 01:31:31,900
insurance at minimum of like, at
maximum, you shouldn't be

1532
01:31:31,900 --> 01:31:36,400
practicing it, right?
But I like, I know, I know a

1533
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:38,100
lot.
I mean, I know people who don't

1534
01:31:38,100 --> 01:31:41,000
have birth certificates, right.
Yeah, granted.

1535
01:31:41,000 --> 01:31:44,700
That's a very rare but I know
people who don't have health

1536
01:31:44,700 --> 01:31:53,100
insurance, a lot of people and
That that's par when you get

1537
01:31:53,100 --> 01:31:55,300
sick, right?
I mean that's hard.

1538
01:31:55,300 --> 01:31:57,200
And we think that's a whole
different debate about how

1539
01:31:57,200 --> 01:31:58,800
health insurance has to operate
in this country.

1540
01:31:58,800 --> 01:32:03,500
Like, it's a whole different
thing, but it's stuff that there

1541
01:32:03,500 --> 01:32:08,700
are no actual there's no There
are absolutely no barriers for

1542
01:32:08,700 --> 01:32:12,900
anything of having 100 children.
If you want to have a hundred

1543
01:32:12,900 --> 01:32:14,900
children, I don't care but I
want you to be financially

1544
01:32:14,900 --> 01:32:17,900
responsible for them.
It's not, I don't know, I don't

1545
01:32:17,900 --> 01:32:20,400
know why that's radical.
But somehow it is II.

1546
01:32:20,400 --> 01:32:23,900
Don't think it's radical at all.
I tend to I tend to agree with

1547
01:32:23,900 --> 01:32:27,900
you on that a lot.
I think that that if and

1548
01:32:27,900 --> 01:32:30,600
everyone says well what health
insurance companies going to

1549
01:32:30,600 --> 01:32:33,300
cover that?
Well if there's one thing I

1550
01:32:33,300 --> 01:32:36,500
found out about capitalism, it's
very Salient, if there's a

1551
01:32:36,508 --> 01:32:40,100
market to be.
Gain from lll.

1552
01:32:40,100 --> 01:32:43,000
Find a way to do it, right?
And so, I tend to think that,

1553
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:46,400
you know what, maybe it starts
as a cooperative, and maybe it

1554
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:51,500
becomes full-fledged insurance,
but all I know is that usually

1555
01:32:51,500 --> 01:32:57,500
capitalism will find a way to to
serve a customer base.

1556
01:32:58,200 --> 01:33:04,000
And so I, yeah, I'm with you,
I'm like, Life and even in the

1557
01:33:04,000 --> 01:33:06,800
decriminalization standpoint,
like as someone who has kids,

1558
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:10,400
like everyone.
I know who has kids want their

1559
01:33:10,900 --> 01:33:16,200
kids to feel safe calling 911.
If there's an emergency and

1560
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:19,900
unfortunately it's true that we
need to live in a situation

1561
01:33:19,900 --> 01:33:22,400
where fundamentalist don't feel
comfortable calling 911, if

1562
01:33:22,400 --> 01:33:27,700
their child gets hurt like that
continues to happen and not from

1563
01:33:27,700 --> 01:33:29,700
my perspective.
The only way to stop that was

1564
01:33:29,700 --> 01:33:32,900
decriminalizing polygamy.
So people Call 911 without fear

1565
01:33:32,900 --> 01:33:38,100
like that was and I think that
that is the I think that is the

1566
01:33:38,100 --> 01:33:40,800
game-changing argument.
Not only because it is

1567
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:45,000
compelling and it's an
interesting way to look at it.

1568
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:49,300
But it's true.
We know from nonprofits that

1569
01:33:49,300 --> 01:33:51,800
when deployed me was
decriminalized.

1570
01:33:51,800 --> 01:33:54,100
The number of people seeking
housing went up.

1571
01:33:54,100 --> 01:33:58,200
The number of people seeking
Mental Health Resources one up.

1572
01:33:58,200 --> 01:34:01,400
The number of people reporting
violent crime went up the number

1573
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:05,800
of Of people seeking food when
we know by the numbers that that

1574
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:09,100
happens.
It is factually true that people

1575
01:34:09,100 --> 01:34:12,800
saw it resources from nonprofits
and the government when polygamy

1576
01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:14,600
was decriminalized.
We have the numbers.

1577
01:34:15,100 --> 01:34:20,800
Yeah, when the when the vote
came in, where were you at?

1578
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:23,600
Were you in the in the state
house when the vote came went

1579
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:27,800
through?
Oh yeah, I was and I was at.

1580
01:34:27,900 --> 01:34:29,800
I was in the Senate Raptors
watching it.

1581
01:34:31,000 --> 01:34:36,100
Tell me what that was like, tell
me what it was like to sit there

1582
01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:42,500
with the people that you've
devoted your academic life to as

1583
01:34:42,700 --> 01:34:48,500
that vote came down, well as I'm
like, getting emotional.

1584
01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:56,900
So I was sitting next to Vicki
Val, and Alena jogger who, I

1585
01:34:56,900 --> 01:35:01,100
mean, the people who the people
who decriminalize polygamy, Yes,

1586
01:35:01,100 --> 01:35:02,600
it's Deidre Henderson and low
res.

1587
01:35:02,600 --> 01:35:06,100
No, that's true.
Whoo-hoo decriminalize.

1588
01:35:06,100 --> 01:35:11,600
Polygamy are surely Draper.
Cherish families, and Vicki Val

1589
01:35:11,600 --> 01:35:13,500
Alina and Joe dorgan.
Think those are the people who

1590
01:35:13,500 --> 01:35:17,200
put in the work whoo-hoo.
I mean, Joe's family.

1591
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:20,700
They've been a public face of
polygamy forever.

1592
01:35:20,700 --> 01:35:24,000
And surely, she was for those
who don't know if I'll guess

1593
01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:26,600
she's worked her.
And she runs a non-profit in

1594
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:29,700
short Creek.
That does incredible work for

1595
01:35:30,300 --> 01:35:31,700
people.
Who are in and people who are

1596
01:35:31,708 --> 01:35:34,200
trying to leave and she's
devoted her life to this.

1597
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:39,100
So seeing what this meant to
them was really a big deal.

1598
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:45,500
But at the same time, I mean, I
I became convinced of this issue

1599
01:35:45,500 --> 01:35:50,900
when Roy died.
It's why I did it, you know, I

1600
01:35:50,907 --> 01:35:57,000
mean, I generous pour
decriminalization of things, but

1601
01:35:57,000 --> 01:36:01,000
this one was for Roy, it, that
really mattered to me.

1602
01:36:01,300 --> 01:36:05,100
So when the boat came in, like I
knew I had done it.

1603
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:12,900
Like, I knew I blamed, I blamed
the state for killing Roy.

1604
01:36:14,000 --> 01:36:16,600
I mean warrant, you know, Warren
did it by extension, right?

1605
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:19,100
It was the state that was the
LDS church.

1606
01:36:19,700 --> 01:36:25,600
It was a lot of institutions.
And I knew there was a tiny bit

1607
01:36:25,600 --> 01:36:29,300
of hope that the government
couldn't create and Warren.

1608
01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:32,500
And so that was that was a
really big deal to me.

1609
01:36:38,000 --> 01:36:41,600
You know, I have more questions
but I think we're going to end

1610
01:36:41,600 --> 01:36:46,000
there.
I just want to wrap up by just

1611
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:52,800
telling you I appreciate your
work so much as a guy who's kind

1612
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:56,500
of sat back and been a Loki
fundamentalist for a lot of

1613
01:36:56,500 --> 01:36:57,800
years.
I always found your work

1614
01:36:57,800 --> 01:36:59,900
compelling.
I just want to thank you for

1615
01:36:59,900 --> 01:37:02,700
what you've done.
I mean it's huge and it's

1616
01:37:02,700 --> 01:37:09,000
important work.
And Yeah, I just I think you're

1617
01:37:09,000 --> 01:37:10,400
awesome.
Is there anything else you want

1618
01:37:10,400 --> 01:37:13,900
to say in closing, I would just
want to tell people, sorry, I

1619
01:37:13,900 --> 01:37:18,500
got her, I would just want to
tell people that if you, I mean,

1620
01:37:18,500 --> 01:37:21,100
I always want to plug Church
families, if you're someone

1621
01:37:21,100 --> 01:37:25,000
who's wanting to give to a
non-profit, who is a people,

1622
01:37:25,900 --> 01:37:31,000
especially from the flds, check
them out, read dialogue.

1623
01:37:31,000 --> 01:37:33,200
It's an Open Access Journal.
Meaning you do not need a

1624
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:35,800
subscription to Bill term.
Eat it, you're wanting to read

1625
01:37:35,800 --> 01:37:37,500
stuff about more Urban history
and you don't know where to

1626
01:37:37,508 --> 01:37:40,900
start there and then also give
your money to Benchmark books.

1627
01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:43,400
They're like the only Bookseller
I know of in Utah that has a

1628
01:37:43,407 --> 01:37:46,800
whole section on fundamentalism
like people like profits go and

1629
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:49,100
drop off their Revelations by
the box when you combine.

1630
01:37:50,500 --> 01:37:52,700
And so I mean there's some
really great places on the

1631
01:37:52,700 --> 01:37:56,500
ground that are kind of tell
this history, the journal Mormon

1632
01:37:56,500 --> 01:38:00,500
history is also rad and mha I
just I would love to see more

1633
01:38:00,500 --> 01:38:03,000
fundamentalist people, actively
involved in the historical

1634
01:38:03,000 --> 01:38:05,500
community.
Awesome.

1635
01:38:06,300 --> 01:38:10,700
Well, Dr. Christina Rossetti.
You're awesome.

1636
01:38:11,300 --> 01:38:14,400
I appreciate it.
Thank you so much.

1637
01:38:14,600 --> 01:38:16,800
All right for having me.
Hey, would you be willing to

1638
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:18,800
come back on it another time
too?

1639
01:38:19,300 --> 01:38:22,600
Yeah, I would love to have you
back on some.

1640
01:38:22,700 --> 01:38:26,300
All right.
Well, everyone will say goodbye

1641
01:38:26,300 --> 01:38:27,200
till next time.