Episode #24 Saving True Mormon History W/L. Hannah Stoddard

0:04 Today on the podcast, I have on Hannah Stoddard. Hannah is the director of the Joseph Smith Foundation, which seeks to defend the restoration as given through the Prophet Joseph Smith, they do this by battling false narratives and staying true to and telling accurate history and defending Joseph Smith and other early LDS church, president's Hannah. And I have an interesting conversation about how the Joseph Smith Foundation was started. And the work that they do later. We discuss current Efforts of so called historians and revising and rewriting early LDS, church history in our conversation. Hannah does an amazing job of telling the story of how revisionist history first got started and all the players involved. We also discuss how the tactics used in rewriting lbs.

0:47 History is almost an exact duplicate of, how academics rewrote American history concerning our nation's Founders, towards the end of our conversation. Hannah offers fantastic Solutions on how faithful Mormons of all types can combat this. Insidious attempt, every writing Mormon history, stick around for that and more on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast, So, I just want to take a moment to thank you. The Listener, when I started this podcast I wasn't sure if anyone would really listen. Now to my surprise, this thing has taken on a life of its own and that's all due to you the listener, spending your time here with me, and it means a great deal to me now, as a husband and father, I'm keenly aware of how important time is. It feels like there's just never enough of it. So when you are spending your time here, listening to this podcast, I feel a responsibility to never waste your time in that Spirit as this podcast has grown. I feel like I need to do you the listener. Justice, I want to continue to produce good content and upgrade the audio quality that takes better equipment and better software and that all takes money. Now, I've tried to advertise, but you'd be surprised. There's not a lot of people want to advertise on a Mormon fundamentalist podcast.

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3:40 You can also get a hold of me on Instagram and Twitter and getter under the handle. Mormon Renegade. Also we have a website up and that's Mormon Renegade.com, so go check that out. Today, on the podcast I have here with me. Hannah Stoddard and full disclosure Your I am a fanboy of the Stoddard's I think they're rock stars in everything that they do. So Hannah, thanks for being here. Oh, I am so glad to be here and I hope I can live up to that kind of control. I have so much for the invite. Well I wouldn't worry about you. I've always said I'm the weak link here, more of you and less of me is always a good thing. I don't think so. This will be a fun conversation. Absolutely. So real quick you were born and raised in the church, right? I was mmm.

4:26 I'm pretty much a descendant. All my Ancestors, pretty much Pioneer stock and now except for one line that's a convert lying. Really so that goes back quite a way. So you probably have some really cool journals. Yes. In fact, one of my lines actually goes back to Joseph Smith's cousins. So I guess you can say, when we're out there defending Joseph, Smith's character. It's also a personal are not treasure diggers. I'm sorry. But no, yeah, and some of Bodyguards are involved in those things. So I guess you could say we definitely, I definitely come from a family that was born and raised with Mormon Battalion stories, just talking about being proud of the restoration and that this isn't something to be embarrassed about, right? So I'm a convert, right?

5:14 Not and I can point back to like one event where where I converted to Mormonism was there something like that for you or was it a gradual build-up to your conversion? I would say both, I would say both. And so So I grew up my dad would come home at lunch during his lunch breaks when I was 10 11 and we would read The Illustrated church history book series. I don't know how many people have seen those that are like 26 volumes so good, but we would read those. He would have us listen to Lucy Mac Smith's autobiography of her life and the history of Joseph Smith while we were folding laundry and everything. So we definitely grew up watching all the Seminary movies, everything.

5:57 But I Do you remember? Well, okay, so let me, let me step back just a little bit. So the Joseph Smith Foundation, was founded by my father. When I was started, when I was about 10 I just felt impressed to do documentaries and do books, just helping the gospel come alive to people and showing people that there actually is history and science and data to support our faith. And so I grew up doing that. But in the process, I remember I remember a time when I was 14 or 15, I'm trying to remember and I was going through the Book of Mormon again, and I just It down and I was like, I really want to know if the Book of Mormon is true, like I need to know because if I'm going to devote my life to this, which is where kind of my mind was going where I was like, this is more than a family thing. I want to take this on as my own I was I was like, I got to know because I'm not going to live my life devoting to something. That's a lie or a waste of time.

6:50 And I got my answer, not in one sitting, but actually in the process of working and studying it out. Which is one of the things I think is so important we have this debate among people where they're like oh you know sometimes people hit hard questions in church history and people will be like, well just, you know, just just keep your faith and don't worry about that and just just love your neighbor and and, and, and that is very hard. I'm going to speak as a millennial. Like, we need to have intellectual conversations, we need to discuss the science, we need to discuss the data. We need to not be afraid of that because if it's true, Through the data is going to back it up. And so I think that's the main thing that I have kind of Taken on as part of my mission.

7:35 That's part of my message and the part of the message of the Joseph. Smith Foundation is the real history in the real data does support the restoration and it does support Joseph Smith that yeah, you're absolutely correct. I just had a gentleman on want to say three or four weeks ago, he's going to come back on but he went through and he compiled a book of like all the bull's-eyes. The things that Joseph Smith taught that can be found in the Apocrypha. Oh, cool. And so, it is amazing when he starts getting into it, and we really didn't dive deep, right? We just talked about him and how he got to, to write in the book and what the inspiration was. But the amount of bull's-eyes that are in there is are just incredible. And so, when we talk about having intellectual conversations, I don't think we should shy away from those. Yes.

8:25 I think, I think, if we can't defend, That on the intellectual plane as well. That's on us because we're lacking a little bit, which is one of the things that I absolutely loved about all the work that you guys have done there at the Joseph. Smith Foundation is the fact that it's it while. It's definitely Faith promoting its Faith promoting with a brain, right? And I hate right, there's nothing wrong with Blind Faith, but at some point, we have to be able to get down to brass tacks and say no, this is true because of X Y and Z, right? And here's the evidence because For that. Hmm, so yeah II agree with you wholeheartedly and look, I'm not a millennial, I have a couple kids who are millennials and if there's one thing I've noticed is that they just don't have time for BS, right? And so because they were raised on Google, they were raised on just getting the answer right now. Right.

9:17 Right. My generation. We had to go to the library, we had to look things up. If, you know, you didn't do that because it was fun, or it was a quick search. I mean, I really had to go into it, so, Typewriter and everything. So I think I think my generation was conditioned out of laziness prop. Okay, I'm just gonna speak for me, definitely out of laziness that this idea of going to library. Well, I got better things to do, like, eat Doritos and watch football, but right. But so, your generation though. It's like we want the answers and we want it now and you guys have an incredible nose for just BS and if that if it comes across that way, a lot of Millennials tend to wash your hands with it. So The work you're doing there I think is hugely important.

10:00 Yeah. Did your dad ever tell you what his inspiration was for? Starting this whole thing. Yeah so he started when he was around. 11 or 12 years old, just studying the gospel, like crazy so and he just had an impression one day that where he felt impressed that he needed to study the gospel. So, well, that no matter who spoke he wouldn't be deceived. And so he walks out of his room and he went to his mom my grandma and he said, Mom, I'm supposed to learn the gospel. So while I won't be to see if like, where do I start? And she went over to the shelf and they had the Journal of discourses teachings of Little Samantha and doctrines of salvation.

10:43 She pulls those off and she's like, well, you can start here. And so, he took it in, and he just started, just studying a sin because he just had that thirsty. He was like, I want to know how things work. He ended up becoming a software engineer taught high school and different things. And so, we, he grew up with this desire, we just felt like, oh, there's so many answers to questions, people have, right? So he would see people struggling with their teens, with pornography or family relationships or Questions about church history and he's like the answers are out there. But not, everyone has the time to go reinvent the wheel and go do all of that research, right? This is he's doing the studying, like you're saying before, Google and before, all of those things.

11:25 And so he so I remember growing up and watching him at the computer, typing away, out articles on the Book of Mormon or oh, we gotta put this together, we got to do this and got to do that. And finally, that came together when I was about 10 and he lost his job. Because they closed down the part of his software company and shipped to India. And so he was like, okay I'm either going to transition to a new company or and you just felt like you need to do video and start teaching through video because that's even more powerful than books which we've done both obviously. But and so that really became a family mission where he was like, I'm going to do this as a family all together and that's what we did for our homeschool actually, we instead of doing endless work books and assignments that were just going to Away in the trash.

12:11 My dad was like, well, if you're going to do a research paper, let's go research this out. You want to learn how to go to the archives. Let's go to the university. Let's go to the library and learn how to pull out, the documents, learn how to do primary source, research. And so that's what we did. And now I've done seven or eight documentaries and five books, and we're still going strong, even though he just passed away last year, were carrying it on. Yeah, when I heard of his past and I my heart went out to you, I know what that feels like. So, I again, My condolences. Thank you so much. Um, the Legacy he left behind though, not just not just the work but but seeing his kids, pick up the work. Look as a dad, it's easy, shouldn't say it's easy, it's easier to do the things that we're passionate about, right? Absolutely.

12:59 It's another thing to bring your kids along to do right by his patience of Job. Just calling to say that that. Well, that and it requires. And I'm not the best at this whatsoever but it requires you being able to pass that along in a meaningful way. And so the fact he was able to do that with with his kids is just awesome and I think speaks to his character. Well, it's honestly what converted us. I can honestly say if I hadn't grown up being engaged in actually doing it Hands-On, if I had just only been studying, I don't think I would actually be here today. I would probably be pretty wild, really be honest, but it was actually being engaged seeing people's hearts changed and seeing this matters and we need to make a difference. And we can't sit around because, you know, we, when we were growing up we would always watch this movie about Mother Teresa. There's to motion pictures on her life, and my dad would pause all the time all the way through. And he'd be like, Okay, you can see her giving her life to help people and there's physical people dying physically right now Starving in third world countries and everything that's important.

14:09 He's like, but there's millions of people starving spiritually and we've got to fix both, you know, and that's that's part of what drives, I think my passion and my siblings passion to keep this going is because the restoration does have answers and to solve every problem we're out there. I solve all of our societal issues, and all of our political issues with this, or that campaign, this or that program, this or that latest Trend. It doesn't work. It does not work, but the gospel will work. And that's why it's important. Absolutely. And, and I think we're, we're at a stage now. And speaking of society, where we can see what's happened, when you cut those underpinnings out right now while the vast majority of the country. And American society wasn't Mormon of any stripe. There were some very common elements that right, yes. And those underpinnings have been jerked out from under society and now we're in free fall, right? And one of the things I've noticed in speaking about society and full disclosure, I've mentioned this on the podcast before.

15:19 I'm a huge nerd. When it comes to the revolutionary period of America. That stems from of all things, a football game, me and a buddy. I'm I'm a huge green. A fan and he was a huge Philadelphia Eagles fan. And we found out they were playing on a Monday night in Philadelphia and we thought, okay, we're going to wear her book, some tickets and we're just going to go and so we did and so we went and you know, we're like let's go a couple days early because I want to look at all the sides, I wanna go see the Liberty Bell and all these other filter. You at this time I was in my early 20s this was this was probably about two thousand three or four that just a few years after 9/11 and So my wife who's just an absolute rock star. She's like, yeah, go go have fun. She's see you later.

16:05 So, so me and my buddy. We jump on this flight. We go. And what I wasn't prepared for was what happened when I walked into Independence Hall in Philadelphia. It felt like in feel like it was Holy Ground, right? When I walked in I still get Goose Bumps thinking about today. Yeah, the spirit was just too strong. There is it was Martin's Cove or in Nauvoo, or on Temple Square or anything like that. The spirit just said something important happened right here. And this started me down the road of doing real Research into the, the founders, the Constitutional Convention, the original arguments, all those things, and I walked away from there, from from that experience. I mean, it didn't influence me so much. I ended up moving the family out there for about three years, just, so I could be closer to it. Hmm.

16:56 So when I'm done with my Research, I realize we're way way way. Off course we have, I don't know what happened, but holy cow. So I started diving into what happened. And what I noticed was is that there's this revisionist history, that has happened, where it was a very Progressive idea. And the idea was, is that if we can teach, if we can degrade the founders, and Dismiss them. Well, then we can dismiss the founding documents and then we can remake this government into something that's closer to our desires.

17:38 And so, in order to do that, they had to change the narrative, right? No longer were the founders Men of Integrity who puts you, each other, their lives and fortunes and sacred honor, now they're rich, white slave owners, right? And, and in that process, you can now degrade what it is, they did and you can now I move the country where you want to go. That's done, that's happened. It's over, unless, it's getting caught at home. It's over my concern it and, and we talked about this on our phone call. Was that the same tactic? The very same tactic is now being employed inside Mormonism, and I don't care if it's the LDS church, I don't care if it's an organized group of Mormon fundamentalist, or if it's an independent, You know, if your name is the Community of Christ even like know, pretty where we are seeing this, right? And we're losing our kids in droves. Yes, we are.

18:37 And we're not just kids, but we're losing adult members in droves, right? And so, that's what I wanted to have you on this to talk about this rewrite of Mormon history, this revisionist history, and how we got here? Who were the players involved, right? What you're describing is so important because our identity is shaped by our history, right? To understand where where you come from, what you've experienced, even what your people ancestors, have experience that really shapes a lot of identity. So if you even look at the Book of Mormon, we believe is the most correct book, right? Its history. That's what it is. So God, history teaches us how God acts.

19:18 How God works who God is his character is all defined through history and our identity and how we work with that. So what you're describing is exactly right and it's actually even before the founding fathers If you go back to the very founding colonists, the pilgrims and the Puritans, right? If you go back, 150, 200 years and read the textbooks on them, they were amazing. They were the heroes. They were even read first Nephi, right? You guys like these are Choice sayings of God their humble followers. He, he paints some, like, their Heroes, right? Well, how did we get to today? Where no one even knows. That they anything about them. You you go. And this is what we the very first documentary did technically.

19:59 It's the second, but the first one we that's really out there. Still Ford a coven on the land. We went to BYU and we went to the sidewalk and we interviewed students and we asked them, what do you know about the first Thanksgiving? What do you know about the pilgrims? What do you know about the Puritans? What's the difference between the two are best youth? Don't know the answers to those basic questions and it's a strategy that this is every Communist Regime every socialist regime, Go into a country and that's what they do. What did Mal do when he went into China? That destroy the Museum's, they destroy the history books because it wipes out of people's identity. So now they can be given a new identity usually for the worst. So, right. Yeah, absolutely. It's funny, you should bring up the, the, the pilgrims and the Puritans one of my favorite speeches to read is by John Winthrop. Well, he's coming across and he puts his people under Covenant. Yes.

20:51 Where he talks about we Need to embrace each other and familiar Commerce, making each other's plights, our own working together and morning together. And if you take that speech which was not available Joseph Smith at that time and then you go read, what we have is that Covenant, it's the same language, they talk the same and the founders understood. This, our first national seal was supposed to be Moses and the children of Israel. Following the pillar of fire, right? Everybody who came over here understood that this is a continuation, right?

21:32 Of the Israel strikes, right? I've God's chosen people. Right then, how did that happen? So, I want to just mention this just just because you're bringing it up here and I think it's so fascinating. So the strategy is always you first denigrate and then you and then that and then that leads to undermine, right? So people will rely quite well, why would I live? Listen to it? Bumbling buffoon, right. So denigrate, George Washington denigrate, the founders, we're going to go into this denigrate Joseph Smith and it's like well why would I care what he says? So then that leads to ignoring which then leads to where they're completely forgotten and we are, we've seen that we pretty much completed that cycle when it comes to the, the founding fathers, meaning the colonists.

22:14 And then were almost completed on that, on the founding fathers in political founding fathers, and we're heading that direction. With the founding fathers of the restoration and so I just want to use an example just on the pilgrims and Puritans and then we can probably move into the restoration but how did that happen? How did we get to the point? Most people don't know the history. Well a big key player was Nathaniel Hawthorne now anyone that's gone high schools probably like oh well The Scarlet Letter, I loved that book or which one of the classics, right. So I grew up in a different home school communities and they're like, well if you're educated like you read The Scarlet Letter and that's such a good book. So I Actually taught it in a literature High School class. Okay, not only is the book bogus history but if you actually go into who wrote The Scarlet, Letter Nathaniel Hawthorne and his history, he literally wrote it with an agenda to destroy any respect for the Puritan.

23:10 Forefathers, he himself was a descendant of Puritans and he wanted to distance himself, he change the spelling of his name so that he could just cut that connection with them. And he was, he had involvement in connection to the occult. He mocked Christian Living, his family had his wife and daughter had connections with mediums and so he goes and he writes The Scarlet Letter. He writes these other books House of Seven Gables all these books because he wanted to reshape the way we think. And he took the adversary was smart, he took us out because he changed the history. And now today, no one even knows who they are, which is a tragedy because they're the ones that founded when the greatest civilizations that did succeed. Said that no Nephi said was blessed because they were righteous.

23:57 And now we're falling apart. So when everyone's like, what do we do with the country? What are we? Let's try this policy. Let's try this politics. It's guys, we tirely eroded our foundation, until we go back to the foundation. We can't move forward. Absolutely, absolutely. So often we tend to look forward for Solutions, right? But there's times when we need to stop and look back and say there was our starting point. Why are we way over here, right? Yeah, I'm a land surveyor. A profession. So, you know, five hundreds of a foot isn't very much inside of a foot, but if you carry that out of Mi, all of a sudden, you have a big gap from your original course heading, right? And that's where we're at.

24:38 We don't have our true north anymore. We don't know where we're at and we're way off course. Yes. And the only way for us now to get back, on course, I feel is to go back and to look at the starting point and then course-correct from there. And interestingly, it's this is the same pattern that the Nephites took in the Book of Mormon. So, a lot of times I don't hear people pull out this first, but in Helaman, want to pull the, it's in healing and five, you have Nephi, I believe, it's the son of healing. And I want to say, I could be wrong. Could be Nephi this underneath my butt there, at the end of The Book of Mormon and he gives this big lament and he says oh that I would lived in the days of my forefathers I wish I lived in the days of me finally High when people were Just when people were good, he's like, I just want to go back there.

25:27 Why did Mormon put that in? Because he knew we face, right? Those same that same sentiment now because he's saying, if you're wise, you will say, though, that I lived in the days of the pilgrims, when people actually cared about the scriptures, oh, that I lived in the days of the founding fathers, when they respected, and feared God all that. I lived in the days of Joseph Smith, when we built a foundation that was solid and that is I found a toy. It's only way to solve these problems, but the problem is you can't even have that conversation with people to sit down and be like, okay well let's study what Joseph Smith said and live it because they like, well, why would I listen to Joseph Smith? He was Treasurer digger, he was involved in Magic. He was basically a product of his time who was an idiot. He didn't know what he was talking about, and that's coming from revisionist history.

26:15 So the same revisionist history tactic that we've seen with the founding of America that we've seen with the founding fathers. We're we Have going on right now in the church. Excuse me real quick. Well let's let's start here with talking about revisionist history within the church where do we start to see it and what point does it happen? Does it happen right after? Brigham Young settles in Utah, does it happen? You know in the in the early 20th century? Where does it start? Okay, well you could say all the way back in Joseph Smith's day. This is honestly, this is always the dock deck. So we let me, let me start here. So lightly some groundwork.

26:59 So we wrote this book called Seer Stone, be remnants on a book, Mormon translation on trial. And in that book, we go into all of the accounts that people claim support the idea that Joseph Smith, translate The Book of Mormon using a Seer Stone in a hat and it's not historically viable. I'll have this debate with anyone. There are no credible sources that support the idea that Joseph Smith used a Seer Stone. He used the urim and thummim which is not one dark stone. It's too transparent stones in the room above 0, the whole description given by Joseph Smith and it. But we go through all that and some people sometimes people are like but the witnesses. And so okay. Let's go into those. Let's go into Walmart David Whitmer. Let's go into Martin Harris when we went into the history with David, Whitmer, I'm not inherently. Yes and Emma.

27:47 It's fascinating that shortly. After Joseph Smith died. There was literally a movement where there were people who apostatize and who hated Joseph Smith who believed they were getting Revelations from God. Quote unquote, right? Right there. God telling them to rewrite the history to write a new history to reveal the man of sin. Joseph Smith was this man of sin and part of that was the Seer Stone narrative. Anyways, that's a whole nother. A conversation. I mean, we can sit here and have a whole hour conversation, but it's been an agenda throughout history, where we just change the history. That's frankly. What David Whitmer did when everyone quotes the most famous quote, that they go to you.

28:28 For Joe David. Whitmer saying, oh, he said, he keep this description of the translation of the Book of Mormon and it supports the serious tone hypothesis. Then people don't look at the footnote. The foot now is an anti-mormon publication called, and addressed, all the Believers in Christ. And if you go read the whole thing, it is. Is literally a revisionist history from David whitmer's perspective? That's designed same strategy. First denigrate Joseph Smith that leads to undermining him and then ignoring moving on to a new church. Absolutely. So we see it at the very beginning, right? You would think that in Brigham picking up, right moving the Saints out, west outside of the United States. Let's not forget that.

29:12 I think everyone forgets ride a desert that he's leaving the country. He's like we're done. We're out of here. You would have thought in this Great Basin Kingdom, so to speak that they would have been safe here from that but that's not the case. At what point during Brigham during the tenure of Brigham Young her after. Do we start seeing the revisionist history? Creep in again, let me I say it's almost almost immediately. I mean if you go read Revealed educational principles almost immediately, you had you had individuals who were frankly, very antagonistic to the church coming and they use the education system, which is brilliant, right? So they come out here and what do they do? They set up newspapers and they set up schools, preschools. You don't need to pay for your own schools, you know, parents like white folks, so hard will set you up a free school. Just bring your kids in here and Will train you and many of them had agendas.

30:08 But so that's a whole nother conversation but it's really always been on the strategy but I think we really see it picking up from my perspective and beginning in the 1900s the same time that we have see a culture shift in America really picking up. So the same time you start seeing a departure from Christian Moorings in He's in economics in even the Industrial Revolution moving people away from an agricultural agrarian lifestyle, you see the introduction of rock music. You can see changes in dating and culture patterns and standards at that same time.

30:51 You have Well, okay, so step back, just a bit. So Joseph Smith said that when God says sets up his kingdom, the devil sets up his hmm, right? So, there always is a parallel, there's always a counterfeit and they just grew up side by side Wheaten Terriers right over here and so it's fascinating. If you go study, okay, and Joseph Smith is alive. 1830 is when Charles Lyell publishes, his principles of geology, which is really the Forerunner to laying down. A lot of the principles that would contribute to darwinian evolution. And then you've got Charles Darwin publishing in the Origin of Species in the mid-1800s. You've got Karl Marx publishing, his books are they all are developing this their ideologies. The same time.

31:37 Joseph Smith comes about. So Joseph Smith says, well, this is the kingdom of God. They're like oh, this is a different game, right? President Benson is the one who pointed out the five Antichrist that people quote a lot were hewn, which is, I mean, That sounds strong to say their Antichrist but really they are their philosophies you go. Sit Sigmund, Freud Charles Darwin, John Maynard Keynes Karl Marx and a John Dewey, the father of public education. So what happens is, you have all these universities around the country, the United States that are embracing these ideas, they're embracing these Progressive ideologies, and you have the Latter Day Saints, and they're struggling out here, and they just want their kids to be school educated, right?

32:22 They want Kids to have the chances and the success, and the knowledge, which isn't in itself bad, right? We believe in being a cultured people. We believe in being educated. We believe in not just blind faith, we believe in, we want, we want to build something better, but a lot of parents were like, well, we can't do that ourselves. You know, the early presence of the church were like, do your own schools? Do not send your children to a school without the Bible and not just the Bible, but the Book of Mormon, the doctor covenants, John Taylor was so, Wrong. He was like, we will never have a day without the Book of Mormon the Doctrine and Covenants, right? You know, I just read something out of the Journal of discourses where, and I can't remember if it was Taylor or young, but he had said, why do we want to import Babylonian schools into the mazaya?

33:10 Right? Why would we want to do that? And he was pushing hard to, to not let this happen, right? They understood right and in their day, being inspired, Understood what would come well? Actually, this is the fascinating thing. This is the foundations of BYU, which ironically today is probably one of the most prominent proponents of darwinian evolution. Well, when it was founded, Brigham Young. And we have this quote on our website. He says, I'm endowing the school to do what to fight Darwinism. Yep. And Marxism. So that's the foundation, right? So the foundation is this restoration Vision of we're going to build schools that to train the Youth of Zion to be able to articulate, Leanne, educate, educate, you know, with skill and Poise be able to refute false Doctrine, and false ideologies, but it's hard.

34:09 And I mean, that's a whole nother conversation why the Academy's failed? Why that didn't succeed, but it didn't and people started sending off their kids to Harvard into Yale, which by then had departed. I mean, See universities themselves were founded by Puritans they were they were colleges where you were supposed to go to become, either a lawyer doctor or a minister right was the three, right? And so, the but they had moved away from their Christian Moorings and now they're embracing Progressive ideology, so their sin. So basically, these Latter-Day Saint parents are sending their kids off to school. And, and, and that's where we really see the development of new Mormon history.

34:50 So, that's the kind of the term. It's used, and we talked about this in the faith crisis books. How did, how did, how do we get to the point from a Joseph Smith? That's, that's hero to rough Stone Rolling today. So for those that don't know. Rough Stone Rolling is considered, it's considered a one of the top biographies on Joseph Smith and it's written by a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But It is one of the number one things causing people to lose their faith in Joseph Smith and in the gospel and it's through the history and it's through and a lot of people are like, well, we need except the facts.

35:30 Like we want to know the good, the bad, the ugly. The problem is it's not real history. Yeah. And if I'm not mistaken, one of the books that is touted most frequently by John Dillon, is rough Stone Rolling. Yep. Right. And there was actually a video here. Not too long. Richard Bushman himself saying he we have to retell our history. Yes. He he came right out and just said it, right? Which now you enter into a spook your face because now the masks are kind of coming off, right? They're not pretending anymore. Now it's know. We need to change our history. Oh, they're very proud of it. It's very, you know, but a lot of people don't know how we got here.

36:13 And that is what we set out to figure out. So we had what, the Joseph Smith Foundation, we had been Countering rough Stone Rolling, we'd been going into the history history. And being like, okay, guys, this is why the Seer Stone narrative. And then true, this is why Joseph Smith was not a treasure to her. This is why the whole magical world you. This idea that Joseph Smith and his family or were involved in the occult and rituals and poke magic is just bogus. So we were going into that but we were like we're how did this happen? How did we get here? Right? And and it all went back in our research to a man named Leonard Arrington and Is, that's the main theme of the faith crisis books and so, it's two volumes.

36:54 The first one is Faith crisis. We were not betrayed because that is the big issue. We'll talk about that in a second. But that's, that's, that's why people are struggling. It's not even so much about. Oh, this church, history issue, or this like people debate is it polygamy isn't the book of Abraham, is actually not really any of those things. It's, it's what they call a chest Gap where people are saying, okay, I grew up with one narrative - and now I'm being told, oh, actually, that's whitewashed nonsense. It's not even true. Here's the real uncomfortable truth and people are feeling betrayed and they're feeling like, why didn't I ever hear this in Sunday school? Why didn't I was? And I ever told this and so we were going into this okay, what happened? So just to kind of like just give some highlights of that story because obviously that's a huge story about Leonard Arrington.

37:44 He was one of these kids who grew up In a Latter-Day Saint family and he goes off to college, and in college. He has a faith crisis and he gets introduced to darwinian Evolution and everything, actually by The Institute faculty and people who were members of the church, but we're kind of under this guise of they wanted to change the direction of the church. And and so they sit down and they're like, well, we can we can talk about this like we can, you know, let's let's reconcile. You know, science in your faith and and And so Leonard, Leonard Arrington. Basically, he goes to a faith crisis the first year after college, he writes, or after his first year of college, he writes a paper called, I believe it was called the to arrington's, and he talks about, I'm a different person and I don't believe what I grew up with, and he, which really it started before a little bit. I mean, he had only read the Bible, he read the Bible in the Book of Mormon, once when he was 13 and he never read it through again the rest of his life, which is Pretty shocking. When you consider that, he actually ended up becoming the church historian.

38:52 And that's that's the story that we go into. But he was a church historian for a number of years writing our history and not really any interest in the scriptures or the doctrine, or the traditional foundations, and his dad offered to pay for his mission. During the Great Depression said, go on a mission. Wow. And which was a huge sacrifice family and he said no. He said I'm going to college. So already he's coming from a different worldview, right? Then someone maybe like a Joseph Fielding Smith, who he gets married and then he goes on a mission which was customary in those days. Yep. But he leaves his bride behind.

39:35 He goes on a mission, doesn't convert a single person in England. He's cheered and mocked the whole time, but he's like, I'm here because the Lord wants me to, he comes home. He turns down a very lucrative job because it would put him in the company of people. He didn't. Really associate with and he basically devotes the rest of his life to trying to share the gospel, you know. So he was the kid that would sneak off at 8 years old from a ballgame to go read the book of Mormon in The Hayloft, you know. So it is a very different kind of perspective. So coming back to a Leonard Arrington so Leonard Arrington, he's already kind of adopting these Progressive ideas again coming from the universities and he starts falling into different camps of friends.

40:17 There was one group Particular that called themselves, The Sweat, the swearing Elders, in Salt Lake City. We have some funny stories from that group in our book but they, they hailed from BYU faculty University of Utah. Faculty just these different people that really would get together. They were open about it just to criticize scripture, criticize Church authorities just criticize. They want to change. They wanted to move the church in a new direction, right? And and so they talked about how do Do this well Leonard Arrington had gone really into economics, but he had what he believed was a revelation from God, that he felt, he was told by God to write history, and to write the history of the church.

41:04 So he felt like he was on a mission from God. Like God wanted him to do this and to change the whole Direction and he, but he was very, he was smart. He said he was different than some other progressives like to create waves and controversy. He was like we do it subtly. We do it strategically and he was brilliant at that, he was definitely a charismatic. A personable person which isn't bad, you know. But and in his mind he really believed he was doing good right in his mind he's like, I've got to save the church right from these primitive old-fashioned ideas. We got to move it to Brave New World, right? Obviously.

41:46 So he's going to adopt more of a progressive view point for a traditionalist they're going to say am know that that's and and what do I mean by traditionalist a traditionalist? Is someone who says okay Joseph Smith, the foundation Joseph Smith, light is solid. It is true. We can trust it. We stick with it and if we build on that, foundation will be will be safe. A progressive perspective. Instead says, well, you know what Joseph Smith had a few good ideas. He's a nice guy. But he was a product of this time. He had a lot of mostly weird ideas. Who knows if the scriptures are really true at all. We just need kind of Neda. Say Okay, that was nice Joseph. You had a few nice ideas but let's move to something better right?

42:32 Let's let's do something better and we are so sophisticated now that we can achieve that, it's amazing because it is exactly the same way when you talk about and I know I keep coming back to this but I think it's important because if we can identify what was done to to Country, we can now look and we can see exactly where we are as a people write down that same road, right? So I point back to that a lot, not because I'm trying to put undue emphasis there, but because it provides the roadmap. Absolutely. And it is frightening parallel that that we need to heed. Very closely because we're replaying it all over. Yes.

43:20 Yes. And and we'll get into this a little bit later, but there is so much work to do and actually writing, what I would say is Real History, true history, traditionalist history, so much that has not been done that needs to be done like our children need, I'll just give all this. What? Give one examples of sight engine? Then we can like head back but like the history of women in the church. Has never been written it until we wrote Joseph Smith's pluralize volume 1, published it this year on Helen Mark. Kimball that's really the first biography in the last hundred years on any of the women of our foundations actually telling their stories like actually getting into the story which blows my mind.

44:08 I don't know how we far. How do we get this far without works on Mary, Elizabeth Reynolds Lightner, analyze our snow Rebuilding Smith like we are losing so much of our history and Leonard Arrington was brilliant because he went in and he found other. He gathered together a whole team of professors and writers and he mentored students, he was smart. He's like if we're gonna, if we're going to change the direction of the church, if we're going to change the history, we need to raise a new generation, it's going to take several generations to do this. So he would go and find kids and students that had talent and Anshel and he'd invest in them and frankly. That's now how we have two generations later.

44:52 An entire most most historians writing on Latter-Day Saint history, our Progressive. They've done a brilliant job. My hat soft, they have succeeded but the problem with that is Faith isn't getting stronger, it's tanking. We're having the worst Faith crisis we've ever seen in the history of the church. I don't think there's anything that I can compare to it. No. And and then you couple that with some things that I did, I've done podcast on that have really concerned me because I pay attention to Mormon Twitter along, right? Don't post a lot because you're not going to win any arguments.

45:36 Let me rephrase that you're not going to make an impact, right? You're going to make some people angry and you're going to maybe make a point. But other than that, you're not changing hearts and Minds. Right. But the one thing I noticed was that there was a strange conflation coming out of BYU of the, you know, the United order was nothing more than communism with a religious event. So I had on guys who understood, you know, United order and how it differed and didn't a Be comparison because it is and your Gates. They were very good about pound finding the kids that they could do that with right. And then actually putting those kids in a position of semi authority to kind of recruit and and as you look at it it's just Insidious right? Yes and and a lot of people didn't know the story but Leonard Arrington kept detailed journals documenting. Really this narrative, how the how this came about and when he passed away, he told his kids he said he didn't want anyone to read them.

46:42 For 25 years, his kids talked him down to 10 years because they're like by then like the like we can let the cat out of the bag. Essentially because he said, there were names and information, he didn't want public and you say, oh if you journals right I don't know. People listening, how many journals they have but a couple, you know, whatever. Okay. This journal was 50 boxes, 40,000 pages. So his journals 40,000 pages 26 linear feet of shelving, so that's a massive Journal. Has anyone got a hold of him yet? So they did get released and we had a team go through the majority of that's relevant for this conversation. We went through all of the entries, it took so a number of them were published.

47:31 I'm trying to remember what year it starts, but it goes till that day when he dies, I think. Ink 1982, I want to say but I could be wrong on that but we had a team actually go through all of his journals and read all of these entries to pull out, pull out the meat, kind of pull out the story. And that's, that's what we wrote about in the faith crisis, one and two books is to tell the story. How did we get to this point where we have a new history? Because the problem is kids are coming to their parents or now. It's people of all ages, right? It's not just the kids and they're sitting down. They're saying, you know what? We were lied to about our history and I've been reading a rough Stone Rolling or I've been reading more man Enigma or I've been reading such and such book or I've been going to my history class whether it's at BYU or University of Utah, Utah Valley University and you know what this just Joseph Smith was not a good guy and I don't have confidence in him at all.

48:28 I do not have is zero confidence and Brigham Young. There's all these problems that are this. They were that and parents are just sitting there like Whoa, I don't even I don't even know how to begin to answer these questions. I don't even know where to begin to look. And so that's why we wrote The Faith crisis books because we said okay, you know, understand what's really going on is this is not about, oh, you history is coming to light, right? That's, that's the big. That's the big story will now, you know, with the internet and all this, like, there's so much new history. Okay, so obviously we are making new discoveries but there's nothing there's been no. Discoveries really substantially change. The substance of what we're discussing here, where the foundations of the restoration righteous or were they corrupt? Was Joseph Smith, a man of integrity or not we haven't really found any earth-shattering discoveries. That changes the substance of the argument. So yes we can add more to the story. We can understand more.

49:28 That's all fine and good. But really, what? We're talking about, the reason why people are struggling is because the narrative is changing. And it's changing to a progressive narrative. And so people need to understand, why is it changing? And why does it matter because? Think about it this way, I remember one time talking to a woman that went Progressive, and I remember overhearing, I overheard her talking and, and I knew her. So, I kind of joined the circus. Like we, what are you saying? But she was talking about the Book of Mormon how it was biased history because she said, well, it's written from Nephi's perspective. If we have Laman and Lemuel as version of the story would be completely different, right? So she's like, well, nice. Is writing a bias history. Instead of understanding know that was that history is written through inspiration.

50:10 From God that that history is there is such a thing as truth there is such a thing as okay. And how do we get to that truth? And that's where traditional some Progressive start to differ. So a lot of times progressives want to tell traditional as well. You guys are just in tithing history, right? You just, you just want a really nice story of rainbows and unicorns, and you don't want to Like really face the music, right? That's not what this conversation about. This is not about hiding dark Parts in history. It's not about hiding Mountain Meadows Massacre. It's not about hiding things about Brigham, Young. Let's talk about it. Let's put everything on the table. Let's be open. Let's get into the Nitty Gritty details. That's not what the debate is about. The debate is about how do we interpret that history and that's it's important because it's challenging. People's worldviews, huh?

51:05 Which and, and whenever he jerked out from underneath a society, whether that is, you know, the country, whether that is Mormons, Catholics, I don't care when you jerk out the underpinnings of this is our Bedrock. You have set that Society into free fall and it will be stopped. The question is, who's going to stop it? Right? Right. Are the more traditionalist going to come in and defend? It is it going to fall into the Open Arms of less than genuine? Men, who desire a different Church than what, what has historically been around or does it just shatter entirely? And those are the questions that I think. We all have to ask ourselves and which side do we fall on them? Right.

51:56 Right. And which, and why do we fall? Sides. And that's why I think the books are so important because it Maps it out. In those books that you wrote, what was the most startling thing that you found? How does it go question? I think probably. Is just seeing that there was, there was there was a plan, there was a plan and there was a deliberate effort to to move us in a different direction.

52:39 And I say that understanding and I want people to realize this, for the most part, most of these Progressive men's Progressive men aren't were in our 100% sincere, like in there. Like, that's what you gotta understand, right? Leonard. Is sitting here and he's like I just don't see much value in the scriptures. That's his perspective, right? So so in his mind he's like well which would I value, who I value more Darwin or Moses Darwin, More Barnes, he even compares, Joseph Smith, receiving Revelations to Darwin coming up with the Origin of Species, like they're comparable, you know, and so in his mind you have to understand when Leonard Arrington is sitting down across from as their top. Benson.

53:27 He's like as it happens in just doesn't understand reality and of course those are top Benson is looking at letter Darrington. He's like this guy doesn't understand reality, right? But so they're coming from two different worldviews and I think that's critical because otherwise we talk past each other in conversations if we don't understand what's the worldview that's shaping how we approach things. So I think probably The most shocking or surprising thing that I learned was that this was not just a debate in universities or even behind closed doors, but it actually took place in church at judgment Church headquarters in the mid to late 1900s. That this was something that was being discussed, that was being a battled over with everything from people using pen names to smuggling and sneaking.

54:22 It's back and forth, like it's pretty. It's a very, it's a very fascinating story. It's it's two sides that are both determined to save the church from the perspective. Right? And so just to lay some groundwork for what I mean by that. So I mentioned letter Darrington, was called to be a church historian. Interestingly enough, he was called to be the church historian under Joseph Fielding Smith said ministration now which is a little bit ironic. If you actually know the difference between Joseph Fielding Smith and Leonard Arrington, they're diametrically opposed And, and you have to understand letter in Arrington, wasn't completely upfront about his beliefs who he was and where he was coming from. So he sets up his history division, he sets up his team and he's thinking how do we do this in a calculated way?

55:08 I'm sorry. Hold on one second. You said there's a couple things I want to say here. First off and I agree with you, 100%. The folks who are rewriting Mormon history, Leonard Arrington. He's doing it out of a good place out of a place of sincerity. However, yep. I would make the argument that the the the folks who attacked us on 9/11. They were totally sincere about their religion, right? Being sincere, doesn't make you right, correct? Right. And that's what I think we have to understand. Is that, you know, just because someone approaches it with Vigor, doesn't make their position. Absolutely, absolutely. The the other thing I want to dive into real quick is you just said, Arrington wasn't completely honest or forthright and setting up his Department. Can you dive into that a little bit? What you mean by that?

55:59 Yes, so you had an so are arrington's coming from her perspective where he's like we've got to change the history and he was well aware that there were members of the Quorum of the twelve and others who. If they heard that would be like no, we're not. I mean that let's use as it happens and 41.8 Backer, right? Yeah. Exactly. And so so he starts four years just kind of subtly like okay well let's do this project in this project and this project and really I would say flew under the radar for a number of years until there was a book published by two members of his Division and was called the story of the Latter-Day Saints and we go into that story and it gives published it. It's fully Published it has the church's name on it and members of the Quorum of twelve.

56:50 Some of them, get a copy and they're thinking what in the world like this just came out from our our press because it had New Perspectives on Joseph Smith and talked about Joseph Smith, a little bit of the treasure digging stuff. I mean not as Extreme as maybe what's being talked about today but it's starting to lay that Foundation of changing. How we see Joseph Smith, it's somewhat discredited, the story of the seagulls. Kind of undermines some of the more providential aspects of our history so that comes out and it makes its way to president Ezra Taft Benson and that's if anyone knows anything about President Ezra Taft Benson, he was on that stud, right? And says, my boys, I'm just going to say, I'd rather die without it.

57:33 So, a lot of people know his stance on political things, but they don't realize that I honestly do not believe we would have a church left today. Meaning like we would have had the A faith crisis. We're having now decades before if it was not present as it happens in, huh? It's very interesting to look that time period in history. I've often looked at history and it's really hard to deny God because at certain times certain men and certain people will come up at certain points, asked to defend Freedom, will defend religion to no end and I find it interesting that if I'm not mistaken Benson is present. The LDS church for time about the same time, Ronald Reagan is President and he's fighting the Communists. You know, you have Thatcher and and then Yad Margaret Thatcher and then you had Pope, John Paul, the second said, Ronald Reagan syrup.

58:30 That's right there. And he's doing his own thing and so and I get Goose Bumps thinking about because you can see the hand of the almighty as men once it and women once again, you know, cast their there. Well, being on the Providence of divine protection. Yes, and people know and the fascinating thing is, you know, you keep coming back to this thing of, okay? So same thing that happened with the founding fathers. So president Benson was the one that first made that connection really? So his talk God's hand in our nation's history. Given at BYU devotional address. So he does this, he starts out and he says, okay, this is how the founding fathers are being denigrated and the revisionist history is trying to take them out.

59:14 And then he Additions and goes to church history and he starts talking about. Well there's people that say this idea and people that say this idea and peoples that say, this idea. Now the fascinating thing is President Benson gives that address and little, did he know that his own church historian? Probably a few office Doors Down? Believed a lot of those same things, but president Benson didn't know, but he was very soon to know. It was actually just a few months later when this whole controversy over the story of the Latter-Day Saints broke out and they started having meetings and so their meeting and sitting down with as it happens and I'm Marty Peterson and Leonard Arrington and Spencer W Kimball and so Leonard Arrington writes about these meetings in his diary. And that's really how we know about then today and, and it's a fascinating to see the dialogue that goes back and forth. Because one of the things that comes out is I forget which general Authority, it was but Leonard, Arrington talks to one of them and they say, well, what's really the difference between you and a Joseph Fielding Smith. The fascinating thing is, so progressives will always tell you today.

1:00:25 Well, you know that Joseph Fielding Smith. They were covering up history and they were white washing things and and we lied about this and we lied about that. So Leonard Arrington is asked this question like well what's the difference between you and Joseph Fielding Smith? And you know what he says he says, actually our history is pretty much the same other than you know as we're Into the archives is we're updating things and finding documents. Yeah we're going to correct some historical details. Absolutely. We're going to learn a little bit more. You know when Joseph Fielding Smith wrote about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, in the early 1900s, we've learned more since then just by finding more documents in research great. But he said, other than that, the narrative is pretty much the same but how I see God's hand in history is different than how Joseph Fielding Smith sees God's hand in history. He says Joseph Fielding Smith Sees God as like involved. And blessings and and Providence comes from God and opposition comes from the adversary he's like I don't see it that way more of a secular God steps out of the picture and he is right and we have more of this attitude of. Well let's look at the economics and let's look at this and we can explain this naturally, we don't need the spiritual aspect and that's when President Benson goes to, BYU knee gives us God's hand in our nation's history.

1:01:39 He says we need history the way the Book of Mormon tells it with God's hand in it. You can't have a good history without that spiritual element, and this is where you start having the debate. And so people, you move on to boy, Katie Packer boy. Kate, Parker comes hugely under attack with his talk. The mantle is greater than the intellect. And some people have misinterpreted what he said and saying, well, we just want to kind of whitewash things. Well, he actually go into Leonard arrington's, own diary. He's having conversations with white Cape Akron boy. A Packers, like, I don't really, I don't have a problem with Us discussing tough issues. Okay, let's talk about polygamy. Let's talk about Brigham, Young using tobacco. Let's talk about some of these things but it's how we talk about it.

1:02:24 It's our understanding, it's how we interpret it and that's where the debate comes down to. And that's where traditionalist like President Benson and Wiki Packer, and even go to be Hinckley. People are kind of surprised. It was actually going to be in Glee that shut down Leonard arrington's. Rewriting of Joseph Smith. Which was actually the Forerunner to rough Stone Rolling, which is, I guess we'll go there really quick so that they're battling for years Leonard Arrington kind of the mass comes down and so he's battling with just different church, leaders for years and he has this dream of writing the sesquicentennial history project volume. 1 is going to be written by this man named Richard Bushman.

1:03:05 No one had heard of and then everyone's pretty much Rhythm. Now, the author of rough Stone Rolling it was Leonard are Canton that really got, Richard Bushman into the area of writing church history and really kind of inspired this, which is all documented again. It's all in our faith crisis books. But he writes this first volume of this history on Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith in the beginnings of Mormonism, is what it was later. Published, she writes this manuscript, it goes to the Quorum of the twelve and it gets vetoed. And but the church was in a quandary because they had made a legal agreement to publish it. So now they're a little bit caught. Caught. And so it's, it's actually kind of a funny story.

1:03:46 How they maneuver out of that. We're basically going to be Hinckley. It's other. You quit, the time he goes to the history, to the lawyers, and he's like, we need a way to get out of this contract. And they're like, you can't, it's, you're going to get sued if we don't publish this and he's like, I didn't ask if there's a way, I said, find a way. And so, they did this thing of delaying, delaying delaying delaying. And so it was eventually just never published. And finally, the author's gave up and Richard Bushman take his manuscript and published it elsewhere and finally, it got. So heated that they actually moved the shut. The entire history division down, they took away the title of church historian from Leonard Anton, and they moved him and a number of his staff to BYU.

1:04:34 Now the thing about moving them to BYU though, was the strategy and the Arrington talks about this in his book where he's like, this is so depressing, like my dream and progressives called The Camel. I era when they were out there running the history Division and then, but he's like, but you know what? If we go to BYU, I can spend my time. Maybe it's not quite as glorious, it doesn't feel like a victory, but in the long run, we might not, we might have lost the battle, but we're going to win the war. Let's go, let's go after the kids. Exactly. Because now because they play a game, that's different than the game, we write the one thing I'll say for traditionalist conservative fundamentalist, whatever it is is that we tend to be kind of reactionary, right?

1:05:20 We tend to reaction really good actually. That's right. We're not good at planning, the progressives in whatever start really apparent. They don't mind playing the long game, right? I mean, there was a group of progresses that were called the Fabian. Socialists who took their name from Fabian, the, the Roman general, who coined, the phrase will kill him with a Thousand Cuts, right? They don't mind playing the long game and and and I'm not sure how you counter that, maybe we'll get into that a little later, but yeah, the I'm sure with, with Arrington being moved to BYU, he was like, you're kidding right? I mean, you're going to. Okay. Here we go, right? We'll see. And I do want to go into that for a second because conservatives always seem to fight.

1:06:03 Politics. It doesn't work. The progressives are brilliant. What do they go after they go after the education and the media and the news. So what do they go after? They go after Hollywood, they go after the government schools and then like for Arrington, he's like, I'm going to go rewrite the history. It's brilliant. I'm trying to remember, the name is leaving my mind, but the one who wrote the playwright who wrote The Crucible, which is a book. Look, that just denigrates the Puritans and he actually had connections with Communism and so he was he basically left the country for a time but he didn't interview, which was so fascinating because he said, yeah, they've limited my influence for a time but he said, I know how to write place and they don't. So I'm going to win this game in the long run, right? So it's, it's an it because people have got to understand, he's like Jesus Christ.

1:07:01 How did he teach he taught through? easy Tom through, helping people connect things, he taught through symbolism and we've honestly as a whole, I mean, I'm over generalizing here, because there are, there are some great People than done, great films and stuff. But we need more people that are realizing the battle that we're in. We're the battle that we need to understand the, the stakes that are being played the difference in the World Views with the ideologies are really the difference between the two sides. And then how to teach that in a way that will reach people, you know, if Peter, if Joseph Smith was alive today, I don't think he would write books. I think you would go make movies, I think he would write curriculum.

1:07:46 That is what he would do. That's so funny you should say that because just a couple days ago, the episode I'll release on Saturday is a Mormon fundamentalist who worked in Hollywood who is now making movies trying to make movies that teach correct history. So there I think they're look. If there's one thing that I've noticed throughout scriptures that God loves a dramatic ending, right? And so for a long time, I've been A pessimistic, right? I've been a little like, oh, we're so screwed. This is we're done. Right? Pat pack it in stick a fork in this word done. But I just from from doing this podcast and talking to people from folks in the LDS church to Independent fundamentalist to other groups. I just have this feeling we're all about stand up at the right time and somehow this this will be stemmed, but but you're right often times we we don't We're in a war until it's at the front door.

1:08:49 Yes, right. And because I think we tend to want to think the best about everybody and so we're like they're just trying to do the best they can. Meanwhile, we don't see it, we don't understand it. And by the time we do now, we gotta, we gotta go because there's not time. Right? And I think, honestly, that's one of the number one reasons that were actually losing our kids, and we can talk about the music and the culture. A plays a big role. Not something that we have a big part of the Joseph Smith Foundation trying to teach better standards and better culture, but a lot of it is, we don't engage our kids in seeing that. This is a real war and that they have a part in this and that they can, they can build up something better and that they had.

1:09:36 And then and the need is now I just want shirt. Like I love what you said about being pessimistic, and if I can find it, just here in the book, we have a prophecy from And Heber C. Kimball let me just find it here. Yes. Okay. So which at you might? Remember I don't this is this is probably one of my favorite Clips, but it starts really back. When Joseph Smith was in Liberty, Jail and he the Lord tells it, right? He's so depressed because he's got hit the, I mean, the three Witnesses have turned on him, but his best friends have turned on him. The people are being driven from the state of Missouri. They're being persecuted. Like, it looks like things are over right? And the Lord tells him a promise. He says that his people would never be turned against him by the testimony of traitors, which I think is interesting, just thought something to ponder about. But Joe's, Heber, C, Kimball me this prophecy. He said that at present the Prophet Joseph, boys late apparently, in a state of slumber. Convergence right?

1:10:42 He says everything seems to be perfectly calm with them. Right. All is well in Zion like we're all good. There's not there's not a war going on, but he says but by and by God, will wake them up and they will roar like the Thunders of Mount Sinai. And then this is the fasting prayer. He says there's much work to be done, God is not asleep and he will wake up our children and they will bear off. This Kingdom to the nations of the earth. And what will they do? So what are we going to do, right too? This war he says, they'll bear testimony to the truth of this work and to the integrity and true character of Joseph Smith. And he also needs to Brigham in Heber and others, but I think that's so fascinating that true character of Joseph Smith. So Joseph Smith's character is going to be under attack in the last days.

1:11:27 Basically he's saying and everyone's going to be asleep and then they're going to wake up one day and realize holy cow, wouldn't yeah? Right. And and what is the truth because people come all the time and there They're like why red rough Stone Rolling and I didn't feel good about it but I don't know how to counter it. All right guys, it's not real history. Here's the facts. Here's the data so that you can go out on fight but we need people to realize. Okay, this is the real history. And we need people to stand up and say, okay this is you Joseph Smith really was and we need it. Done through plays and through music and through movies, and through books, and stories and curriculum, and and we can't let this die, huh? Know that restoration will die if we roll over and die with it. yeah, and we have to meet We have to meet those who oppose true history traditional history on that field you have to fight for the culture.

1:12:25 Yes. One of the things I've noticed for a long time and it was something that I brought out years and years ago and I remember someone looked at me like I had a third arm growing out of my head but I said Mormonism, was kind of meant to be a counterculture right? It wasn't meant to be Just another church or just another religious movement. No, this was different. This was a different Society. This was coming out of Zion, I mean, out of Babylon. This was doing something different. Unlike any other American church that had come forward before since then, we were meant to be different. So we should have our own culture. We should have our own music.

1:13:10 We should have our own customs and all those things because that's That's really what it was about to begin with. I think we have and I say we as Mormons in general, every stripe and flavor, we have a lot of us, not all of us. I'm paying with a very broad brush here but we've all I think took our eyes off the Zion a little bit, right? But when you go back and you look at Joseph Smith, you know how many just chapels Joseph built. You want to take a guess 00 temples and communities, right?

1:13:52 And until we get back to that idea of a community, this idea of a separate culture. I don't think we're achieving. What it is? We were supposed to be angling for. Yeah, so people don't understand. This is Joseph Smith was so clear, right? He was like what are we doing? We're restoring Israel and that doesn't mean just it's a spiritual nice. Warm Buzzy thing, it's a culture. It's a civilization, its literal blood. It's literal Heritage. It's it's a real City and everything that gets tangible, right? And I like that, you're bringing this up because literally probably almost to the day a year ago and when my dad was in the hospital right days before he passed away, he and I were actually talking about this in the hospital and he just he just grabbed my hand.

1:14:41 He was like, Hannah, he was Like you got to tell people. We're trying to build Israel. Again, we're trying and it's a real thing. It's a real City and it's a real culture and and that's what our kids don't understand. They think this is all. I think that's one of the reasons we're losing. Our kids is because we make it all about as if it's just it's spiritual, it's intangible. It's just it's nothing. It's warm and fuzzy, right? And then they go off to school and there's the science teacher who's like, well, that's nice. You got the fairy tales, you want the real science. Like let's actually put this in the test. You actually go make a movie. Let's Go actually do photography, right magazines.

1:15:22 Let's teach you how to write. Let's teach you how to go change the world and they're like, okay, yeah, this is what I want. I don't want some something that means nothing and and so we've got it help. We've got a chance, have a paradigm shift where we've got understand. And this is where it goes back to Joseph Smith's teachings and this is why it's so because Joseph Smith taught that he when he was setting up Nabu and he's setting up his Zuri and he said him Kirtland. He's setting up real cities and he told the Saints like in Nauvoo, he said we're going to have her own military, we're gonna have her own schools. We're going to have her own fashion and her own plays in her own music, and our own dances. Let's do this. This is exciting, guys. This is not about Doom and Gloom, and debating endless debates about Doctrine, right?

1:16:03 Let's, let's, let's move past that and actually like, let's build Zion and, and the people weren't ready to, but I think we got have that aspect. This is, this is beautiful and this is this is it Fighting so. Absolutely, absolutely. So real quick. Where do you feel? We're at right now with this with getting back to the revisions history, where we at in the process, how far down the road are we We are probably at one of the most decisive moments in the history of the restoration since the days of Joseph Smith, I think this generation is going to decide whether we keep it or lose it because our history has been pretty much completely Rewritten.

1:16:50 The documents are disappearing on. Like, for all, we talked about transparency, people really do not have access to even our Attend. And why is that? Let's explain that first. What do you mean? We don't have history I'm access to our history, right? Well I would say one people are starting to not value it because as we as we move down this road of okay, well why would we listen to Joseph? The Joseph Smith and rough Stone Rolling is basically a bumbling buffoon. Mmm, why would anyone care to sense what he said about women about?

1:17:32 Economics about family life about Society about culture, nobody cares. And and that's why nobody really studies his teaching. So, a number of years ago, our team with the Joseph Smith Foundation, sat down and were like why do we not have all of Joseph, Smith's teachings organized by topic. Like it's been quiet lately. It's been, it's been a while. It's almost been 200 years since the restoration of the church is founded, and we don't even have Joseph Smith teachings, organized by topic. How can that be? How can that be? And so we've actually been working on that and we're actually getting ready to release it and of September.

1:18:14 This is 2022 when we're recording this world's beginning of September. Twenty twenty two, but we'll have it released by the end. September is a first pass phase. One of Joseph Smith's teachings, all organized by topic freely accessible so people can actually go see what he taught. So people can't for those that care and and and so, so number one, there is an element where we're just not making that history accessible in a way that people can actually digest. Because yes, you can go read the judges, no papers. But It's, that's not very easier. Friendly the common member. It's it's harder. If you're a fierce collar, if you're a researcher, you know, what to go and look for. But if you're just an average member, you're not going to find it.

1:18:56 Yeah, they're divided up the way they are because for a reason. Yeah, yeah, it's very academic. It's a very academic, it's very dry. So unless you are a complete nerd, which I am, they're not going to be, they're not going to be, it's not a juicy read, right? Yeah. I think people gravitated towards rough Stone Rolling because it was a Jew juicy reads. Same speak, right? Yes, yes. And then just follow finishing answer your question that the history that we do have is Progressive rewriting of History. So, let's take a lies, our snow, all of the biographies out there on her life are written by progressives and by women who are going to be interpreting her through a feminist dick lens, which for them Eliza R snow is a conundrum because on the one hand, she's So independent, and she is so strong.

1:19:48 And at the same time, she's so submissive her how she is an enigma and it's because if you can't understand Eliza without understanding her worldview, and we need a traditionalist history on her. I want to do her biography. I fully intend to, but so are the so that our girls are growing up without female role models because they don't have the history, they don't have the example. And I went through this myself a number of years ago, I was sitting with a group of women and I just I told them, I said, I've been pondering this. I don't know what it means to be a good mom. Like I don't feel like I really understand from God's perspective, what is true Womanhood true motherhood? What does that really mean?

1:20:37 Because I know what? All the different factions mean of different extremes, right? I know what the people with the pink aprons and I know what the feminist saying. All these different, I want to know what God says. I want to know what that perspective is and I don't think that perspectives been told, and I think the reason why hasn't told his because we haven't even told her history, it's in our history, it's in these women like Eliza R snow like Helen Mark Kimball that was one of the fun things about writing about Helen, Mark, Kimball story is she really getting into her personality? Who she was as a mother who she was as a writer who, how she thought? Who she was as a person. How she struggled with health challenges losing children. Let's, let's Estelle these real stories and let's, yes, I agree with the progressives on this thing. Let's, let's not hide the history. Let's not over generalize it.

1:21:24 Let's get beyond the Sunday school version. Let's do that. Let's get into the Nitty Gritty details. Let's talk about Helen are Campbell's struggling through chronic illness and struggling through just different bouts of anxiety. And possibly, you could even say depression and discouragement, let's talk about it. And let's talk about how she got through it and how she kept her faith. I want to know that real history, I want to know the nitty-gritty details, because there's nothing to be afraid of. It will be Faith promoting because it will point to God. Would you take away from right about her? I know it's kind of an aside from what we're talking about, but I'm, yeah. Is he'll probably that how to be? Getting into her story.

1:22:07 Showed me that, she was someone who had a real story like me. You could say, I'm not saying, I've lived through everything she has, but saying she struggled and getting into her mind because when you actually get into our Diaries you can actually see. All this is a real person. A mother that was staying up. All night stressed about her kids leaving the church. She had a daughter and that married someone who wasn't a member of the church and she begged and she pleaded with her and that was so hard and she had another daughter. Struggling with their testing. She's literally having a severe Health Challenge and she's on the couch and she's begging her kids, like don't lose your faith, keep the Sabbath day. Holy right? So that show. So for a parent that's worried or stayed up late nights worrying about a child who's struggling with their testimony Helen Mark Kimball was there and she talked about it and she was also someone who had gouts who was wondering I don't know about this whole idea, plural marriage, I don't know if I believe this.

1:23:05 Us, I don't know how to go through losing my kids. So, she lost her first three children on the first in Winter quarters, and the second on the track to Utah. And it was, she had such severe. You can probably say postpartum depression and then also just depression from losing her losing the kids. Yeah. And the, and the sickness of the track that she almost died and she wanted to die, and she talks about experience, it's almost like an alma, the younger experience, but she's very real. She's This is she's wrong. No, she's raw and that's what I loved about it because I was like I'm I'm sick of the fluff. I want to know the real raw stories. I want to know about the trials. I want to know about the doubts because I want to know how to get through it and what the answers are and I think people need those stories today.

1:23:53 People need to know, let's not pretend like everything's fine. Let's actually talk about. Okay. How does the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Answer to these problems and from her Helen are Kimball Was a perspective of a woman. So instead of just reading, okay, here's a principal was from a woman's perspective. How did she get through it? That was honestly the funnest part for me. That's awesome. That is cool. Let me ask you this. We talked a few seconds, a few moments ago about we haven't done a good job, telling our kids. What's really going on, right, right? Yes. How do we fix that?

1:24:36 I'm okay. So we I'm going to I'm going to start by saying this is a huge, another huge topic. I'll share a few things that work for our family. There's so many things, but we actually just wrote a book about this called a christ-centered home. Kind of telling the story behind the Jose with foundation and how how it was a dad with bunch of his kids. But this, but one of the things is not being afraid to talk to her. Kids about the good and the Bad and the Ugly too. Often we want to pretend like well that's - we don't want to talk about the negative stuff. We don't want to talk about the - scriptures, we don't want to talk about - history like no sit down with your 15 year old or you're even 13 year old. And talk about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the full story.

1:25:25 I mean you don't have to read every gory detail, right? I mean, it's a little graphic, if you go read all the original counts but talk about what really happened and talk about. Okay, this is a story. Where there were state presidents and leaders that pressured members into doing it through their Authority and said, as your priesthood leaders were telling you to do this and massacred men, women and children under a false truths, like that's going to be hard for people to swallow. And so, sit down your kids and see. But this is how we understand it through the gospel. This is where they went wrong. They were following a path of blind obedience. This is what Joseph Smith. Top. You see if they had followed Joseph. Smith's teachings about war. This never would have happened if they had followed What Joe Brigham. Tha this never would have happened.

1:26:06 Let's talk about what was going on in the context with the Utah, war and forgiveness and literally weeks before I think was George. A Smith had been visiting that area and told them, forgive, forgive, you cannot hold anger in your hearts. Anyways, go into the whole story, right, sit down with your kids and talk about it. Talk about the Donner Party, talk about how Wilford Woodruff said, some of the members of the Donner Party were actually former persecutors of the Saints. Let's, let's talk about this and that was, that was something I was so grateful that my dad had growing up As we talked about communism, when we got into the history but it was all from the perspective of understanding it from God's point of view. So it was never depressing and disgusting or hopeless. It was okay. Here's the good, the bad, the ugly. Here's where we've succeeded.

1:26:50 Here's where we failed. Now, let's take that knowledge to go make a difference. Now, we can understand our times better and go to a difference. Make a difference. And then two, I would say, every parent needs to figure out what their family mission is. So we always talk a lot of times. For Education circles about people having individual missions like oh God, help your kids figure out your missions. Well if you look in the scriptures, everything is about family missions, right? So Lehigh doesn't just have Lehigh's Mission. He is a mission for his whole family Alma goes and takes his sons with him. When he goes to preach to the zoramites with polar. A me, I'm Tim story. It was a dad and his boys going on that mission. We forget about that perspective.

1:27:31 The sons of mosiah their brothers, it's a family, I'm going on a mission to convert the lamanites, we don't think this way anymore. It's so counter to the our culture where it's just, we fragmented everyone. But instead sitting down and saying, okay, every family, I do believe this, I believe every family was sent down with a purpose to do together. Mmm, and I would say, our family could have never done any of these books and DVDs without every single one of my siblings. Every single one of them was needed. Every single one of them was essential with their different talents to this day. I when, when I'm even working on my books or articles, Even my Facebook posts or anything. Like, I talked to my sister and because she thinks different than I do and she has it perspective that is absolutely needed.

1:28:13 I would fail in my mission without her help and she would fail on her Mission without the rest of our family like families were meant to work together. And kids need to feel that maybe even feel they're important. They need to feel like we were sent together as a team to do this. Let's go build Zion let's go do it. Why wait my wife who is just way better? Or than I am. I remember she was about seven eight years ago. She just came and she said, we need to have a family mission statement. I love it. And so we sat down and I remember we talked about it and we, we got everybody's input and we came up with one. We even developed a family slogan, which was all it takes is all you got, right?

1:28:56 And what happened in that process is that we got really United really quickly, right? We understood, we have Chart, you know, we've chartered a path now. We gotta go, right? And, and I think you're 100% correct somehow. I think that, as a society, we've allowed our families to kind of be pulled apart a little bit. Yeah, right. And, and what's been so interesting to me was it was never bad stuff, most of the time, right? It was never, it was never. Hey, John, he's out back. Smoking a joint, right? It was always well, we got foot. Ball. And we got. Yeah, and and we have have all these other things, right?

1:29:39 And for the for the most part, you can't say they were bad things. Hey, were just things, right? And you're trying to keep your kids active and, and, you know, we live in a society now where people feel like it takes two incomes and, and so Mom's work and dad's working, and you're just stretched. Yeah, a part and friends are mostly just chauffeurs driving from like ballet and then we got to go to this friend and this universe Coop. And so I remember as Me and my wife face this, we said, okay, we gotta do something different, right? And we're going to be weird and we're going to look strange, but that's okay. Because we were seeing it. We were feeling it not. I didn't like it and she didn't like it. So we finally just said, each kid gets one. Right?

1:30:21 You gotta pick one because we can't just do this. We're missing out. We come to a point as people were, we have to make hard decisions and I believe the hardest of decisions is Always choosing between what's good or even great, and what is vital? Yeah. And and I think it's in making those decisions when you choose the sight of what's vital, right? That you begin to get yourself squared again. Yes and and I don't want people to misinterpret that is like okay kill all the activities, kill the recreation, right? But it's from this perspective and that's why it's so important to understand that building Israel Gathering his role in building Zion is building its building a culture.

1:31:03 Right because Is like in our home. So my dad just loved dance. And so he but he was like, okay, there's a lot of dances that are very corrupt. So he's like, so he's like, well, let's restore it right. We need Recreation. We need something to unstring. The bow is, we're going would say let's restart. Let's go study out the dances. Let's go study out, Jane Austen dances, let's go study out square dancing. Let's go study out even earlier and I bought all the DVDs back in the day when people and do He became pliers, right? And I was like, let's watch these and he was like, okay. Now let's get together with friends and let's teach each other these dances and let's do this simple actually, like it sounds maybe like, oh my goodness, I would be so much work, but actually just sit down with your family, once or twice a week and dance together and then get together with other families and your friends and be like, let's learn this and your start. You are literally starting the Redemption design right there in your home in that area, so it can be fun. Exciting to be exciting.

1:32:04 Can be like, let's sit down, and let's let's restore our food the way we eat. Let's and let's figure out how to do this. So I have some siblings like they love to cook, right? So that's their expertise. Might it's not necessarily my expertise, that's not my favorite thing to do, but they love to do it. So it's like okay well let's go study out. These different spices and different cultures and let's figure out how would an Israelite eat? What does this culture look like? And just involve your kids and communicate that to them. Okay now guys, let's go, let's go share this on a Blog so other people can find it and then all of Of a sudden now they're missionaries. You go out there and spread a better culture. Yep, your dad was a lot nicer to you guys and I was to my kids especially my boys. So it was always a party at the Sanders house.

1:32:46 I made my boys sit down, and go through with me, Washington's rules for gentlemen, and Diesel Behavior. We went through that. We did those to my boy started dating and like, they're like culture shock. Yeah, because you know, they're getting up when she comes to the table after she's left, and they're pulling out the chairs and, you know, they're watching how they sit and how they conduct themselves. And so yeah, no, it was interesting to watch them just wither and pain as we were going through those right. Then all of a sudden it pays off inside. Yes.

1:33:27 And that's like the old man had something. Didn't I say we just have to communicate to our kids. The why Right. You know? And that was, that was the one of the other things. I was just thinking about this. Actually, I was going to bring this a, I teach gospel Doctrine. So I was actually kind of like this into my lesson but like, in a home too, often parents are like, well, this is the rule and and it's because I said and this is what we do and because otherwise you're stupid or whatever, and but it works a lot better. If you sit down and you say, okay, and you rule, we have, can you back it up with scripture? So that was, that was a phrase that We kids would use on each other or even like with our mom and dad, like, wait, can you back that up with scripture?

1:34:10 Like, you know, because they'd be like, well, God is the one that's running this house. The parents have to submit to God, just like the children are being taught to submit an honor, but God is the one that sets the rules. So music, we listen to the movies. It needs to go back to scriptural principles and scriptural standards. So now some of my friends and I use that with each other, in fact, it gets used against me quite often when I say, I'll say something and my And when my friends, we like, can you back that up with a scripture me a minute and I will. So how how do we combat this this? And I'm sorry. I'm taking it back to to the rewriting more back to realtalk.

1:34:52 Yeah. How do we combat that? Because look a lot of us don't have time to sit down and start pouring through old journals, right? Yes, the other thing that's the first part. How do we get involved that way? How do we make meaningful contributions to correct? The narrative next, how do you fight the this new narrative? When the the perpetrators of that new narrative are college professors men with phds? How do you fight that battle? When they look at you and say you don't have a degree? In history, you don't know how to do real research, how you can how those two questions are, weighing heavy on my mind. Okay, both of those are really good questions. Okay, so the first one I think the real answer is that you have to get down on your knees and you have to ask God what your part is and every person's part is needed, you know, people can look at what we're doing the Joseph Smith Foundation to be like, oh my goodness, that's so amazing. I could never do something like that. Know your part is just as important even if you're not writing a book or making a documentary or something even just sharing it or learning your piece or you know, whatever it might be, whatever your gifts or Sorry. I mean right here you have a podcast other people, it might be just teaching their friends

1:36:24 in their Co-op if they homeschool for other people. Even if their kids are going to public school and maybe sitting down and saying, okay, we're just going to start watching good movies with her kids. That's one of the reasons we did Sian tube on our website so it's a movie database of every good movie. We could find and I think we have like four to five hundred movies on there that are very clean. Like especially by today's standards exceptionally clean and actually teach good principles, sit down, watch these there's movies that teach the history behind communist, Russia stories of persecuted Christians. Those stories will inspire your kids and they'll create testimonies that can't be shaken because they'll start understanding history from the right perspective and and the character will come with it.

1:37:11 But don't your question like, what can people do? Because they don't have time to go through all the journals? Well, one, that's why we're trying to do what we're doing. We're, that's, that's the whole goal behind the Joseph Smith Foundation is, we're trying to take mounds of archives of libraries of, research, and Consolidated to say, okay. Here's a book on Helen Mark, Kimball you can just read this book. Here's these books on the faith crisis. You can understand the difference between traditional and Progressive. Here's this documentary on Temple symbolism. So, you can understand the compass, and the square. And all these symbols that Joseph Smith restored. And and also if you're feeling like You need to do something.

1:37:54 You have to get down on your knees and you have to ask God and you have to be sincere and willing to follow through on the answer, you know, you have to be willing to follow the direction but if you do I can promise you like God will open doors to do things. You never dreamed possible, my dad started this. When I was 10 he ended up having ten kids on had helped challenges. He was trying to work full time most of his life. Out of other family issues were like, pretty much. We're like every other family out there, we've gone through a lot. But you know what, just trying to do the right thing and being open to God's leading, led to miracles to being able to accomplish all this and it would never have been possible without his help.

1:38:41 There is no way. We could have done any of these books or these documentaries on our own strength. And so, so if we will have faith, if will sit down and say, okay, God, we believe that you can help us turn this Titanic around. We can do this, we have to do this. If we don't do this, we're not building Zion, right? We're going to build design period. We're going to. So how do we do that? What's my piece, what do I do? And God will open the way to do that. And second question, you're gonna have to remind me. What about how do you, how do you combat this idea that you're not a college trying to Professor? You don't have a PhD. In history, you haven't seen the things I've seen how you combat that.

1:39:28 I think the best thing is teaching your kids how to go get the answers themselves. So instead of relying on Mom or relying on Dad, teach them. Okay, here you go to the research. You, here's the sources. And that's one of the reasons like, even in our faith crisis books, or the serious impairment them, or any of them, we put the footnotes right at the bottom of the page because we were like, instead of making you go dig for them in the back. I hate when people do that eyes right there at the page you will look it up. You can go find it. Go check it out for yourself. Don't believe, don't take anything we're saying for granted but so I did my first research project when I was 13 and it was working on helping pull together every known statement.

1:40:15 From a president of the church on creation science of evolution, Darwinism Adam Eve anything to do with Hold the bait and to pull it together in one collection. So that's what we have on the Judgment Foundation. It's the only place. I know of that has every known statement by present the church on the whole science debate organized formatted so people can actually find it. I did that when I was 13 and you know what, it taught me, it was because we did it for our school, right? And so, my dad's like forget the stupid worksheets like you don't care about them. Do you care about are doing them? Hannah? No. Do you want to do them? No, I don't want you to like let's do something valuable.

1:40:57 So that was kind of exciting because I've been kid wants to feel like they're doing something real. You know. You don't want to feel like this is important and this matters and but not only that but it taught me. I know how to go look this stuff up. So if I'm wondering about something even something that I remember taking a speech and debate class and there were a bunch of kids that were making some comments about politics. I think it was that was during the whole debate. Obama and everything, I don't even remember. But anyways, so they're debating something and I was like, I'm gonna go look that up because I don't, I'm not even going to take what they're saying for granted, but I knew how to go look that up. And so when you teach it, helps kids see that this isn't rocket science, right? Right.

1:41:38 So we get scared and intimidated by degrees but when you realize you can go look that up just like that scholar. Can you can go? Look at that research paper. You you have a brain. You figure this out. This actually isn't complicated. Rocket science is Is complicated. I have an uncle. That two uncles. That that do that. It's complicated. I don't understand. Half the things they're saying most of the time, but this is not history is not. We can talk about this. We can we can, you can understand it. And I think just even talking to your kids that way instead of like, well, you're a kid. No, you're intelligent. You're, you're becoming an adult yet. 12 13, 14.

1:42:18 I'm going to talk to you. Like, you are an adult. You can figure this out. Let's go figure this out together. There's kids will respond to that. I think we have to realize like God is sending down. We've been told over and over. Oh, these are some of the greatest spirits to come down to the Earth are coming down at this time, yet, we're losing more than we've ever lost. Think people should think about that. It's not the kids, fault, our kids will respond, if we teach them truth. And that was something else, that my dad was always big on. And he was always like, we need to use scriptural terms and scriptural words because that's what the kids will respond to you, because that's the language that they heard in the previous.

1:43:00 A life right? Right. Yeah, he didn't hear psychological words, they heard scripture, that's they heard the voice of God. So if we'll use those words and we'll use that terminology terminology their spirits will respond and there's going to be a few lemons and limes meals. Got it seen, it lived it, you know. Sure. But our kids for the most part are good kids and they're being sent down at this time for this fight. So help them discover what their places, and I have seen that change Hearts, honestly, myself and my siblings, every single one of us went through different conversion processes in completely different ways. Some of us took longer than others, some of us struggled in different ways, but ultimately, most of us got that testimony and the gospel Works.

1:43:52 We've got to have faith that it works. And we've got to have faith that if we speak to our kids and And the Lord helps us do that and we hope communicate to them and see. Okay. You can do this that the kids will respond. I don't know if that helps. Absolutely. I think you hit on a really important point and that was kind of start treating your kids, an adult when they get to that 12 or 13 year old State. Yes. I think we tend to look at our kids and like he's just a kid or she's just a kid. But it wasn't that long ago that by six Washington was Fairfax County. Virginia surveyor, right a surveyor at 16 years old, right?

1:44:38 So he's traipsing across the Wilderness dragging a chain and a theodolite. Hmm. To map it. Yes, right. I have found on the times, I have been a good dad. I have found that my kids will respond. When I tell my expect right and too often, I think that their lack of achievement is more a reflection of a dad who didn't expect enough and didn't help them Reach those expectations that's been my experience and so don't don't sell your kids short. I mean, they're way more intelligent than we give Credit for they pick up a lot more than we give them credit for and I think helping them see that they can achieve more if they use the Lord's help.

1:45:22 Hmm. Like I'm going to say everything I've done in my life. None of it would have been possible without the Lord's help period. Yeah. I don't care. And we would always laugh about that as siblings and because so I was, I was 18 when we released our first documentary. So so we're basically teenagers when we're sitting together at these Expo tables and my dad would have us run the Expo. Well, you know, it was all the products, you talk to the customers, right? You help do it and and people would come up sometimes and they'd be like, wow, like you guys must be so talented and we would always laugh because we feel like, are you kidding me? If you see the behind-the-scenes of us in our pajamas, trying to figure out how to work some days. It was a disaster.

1:46:05 So but seeing those Miracles and and honestly as a child being pushed to get down on my knees, Pray and say God, I don't know how to do this, right? I don't know how to write a book. I don't know how to do research. I don't know how to find this. Can you help me? And then getting ideas? Teaches kids like God is real and you can do this Nephi was very young when he did what he did, but he absolutely could have done it without the Lord's help. And so again, it just makes the kids. Okay instead of reading about the scriptures, let's live the scriptures. Let's be like them and it is possible. It's not just like, oh no one could ever be like Nephi, why not? He was a guy to he was lamented about his own, shortcomings and filling em, you know, the psalm of Nephi, right? I Sometimes, and we look at these Heroes and for some reason, we want to turn them into marble, rather than see who they are.

1:47:06 We want to see them as real people, right? So, this is okay, I'm glad you brought this up because this is a big. So progressives are always going to be like, oh, I want to see you, like the floss. We gotta pull Joseph Smith off his pedestal. That's what they always say right? And and it's So that the adversary always uses pieces of Truth mixer with a lie, right? So the true aspect of it is we need to see them as people, right? I want instead of just hearing oh, Helen Mark Hamill got a testimony and live the gospel. Like I want to know what it was really like when she lost her kids. I want to know what it was like when she buried her baby and winter quarters as a Teenage mother.

1:47:49 You know I want to know what it was like when she struggled and She doubted, I want to know what it was like. I remember I was working on the Seer Stone, Beerman, thummim book, which is on a translation of the Book of Mormon at the same age that Joseph Smith was when he was translating The Book of Mormon. And I remember thinking about that as I was writing the manuscript because that's like, what I'm doing is easy compared to what he was doing so easy. I don't know how you did that, but um, but it just, it gave me insight as I was studying the translation in how he did it. Spiritual experiences, he was having and we go into that in the translation of the Book of Mormon. It was a translation, Joseph Smith was learning the language.

1:48:31 He was having visions of the culture. It wasn't just a dictation, he's Prophet Seer and Revelator, not a prophet Seer and reader, right? And any talks about Nephi's coming to him and Mormon Moroni and their explain their culture, he's seeing their mode of travel, he's doing a translation and and and so it was just fascinating. See, come to see him as a real person with real thoughts and struggles with pain, feels real emotions. And then at the same time, though, understand. I think we do need Heroes. So in our culture today we are devoid of Heroes because everybody wants to just say it's okay to be mediocre or just going to tear everyone down. Instead of realizing there are people like Joseph Smith that didn't give in, right?

1:49:21 So you don't have to give any other There's people like Helen Mark. Kimball that struggled. She was not the same caliber as analyzer snow but her story needs to be told because people are going to I'm not anyway, the caliber of any of them, so all of them but they show me different examples of kala-azar snow is, here's her character status here, telling Mark Kimball so you can see what they really went through. But at the same time route Rising, we don't need a teardown Heroes. We just want to see the real history. I hope. Does that make sense? That makes it okay son. Because I don't one of the things I love about reading the scriptures is that oftentimes the humanity comes through? Hmm.

1:50:04 I think of Peter right one moment. He's like oh no there's no way they're getting to Jesus we're going to pick up sword for and go town. I'll never deny you and then 30 minutes later as I do. Yes, I've never seen the man before in my life. It's seen that That right? And then understanding look at what he did after that. And this is how to get there and he and that will map our way of getting there, right? And and so yeah, I think, I think that is the same with the sons of mosiah, right? Okay. When they turned this is how they turned this, how they repaired, this is, this is where they got and that's possible.

1:50:46 Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. What do you think keeps people from engaging? Because I think everybody knows right on some level there's something and everybody. Mmm, if you get them alone and you talk to him, everybody knows something's not. Right? Hmm. And even those who understand what's not right? Yeah. Don't necessarily engage in the fight. Yes, what most of them don't, what what keeps people out of it in your opinion. Okay, so every person is different. Um, There is an aspect that. Okay, so we just released a couple weeks ago, a music Fireside. It's free on YouTube, it's called discover music. So my dad would do music firesides just talking about the impact of rock music and culture and really breaking it down to talking about how to analyze music in the emotion behind it and everything.

1:51:43 And I do believe that our culture plays a big part in just deadening people And introducing apathy and I think a lot of that is connected to the music of the movies and I say that because I have seen over and over and over when someone started purging out and and just raising those standards they come alive, I have literally seen kids that were dead teenage boys, that were so apathetic they were in full Rebellion with their parents and they cleaned up their music and their movies and they became your diff completely different people, you know. So there's an aspect of understanding adding if you're trying to do this with your kids and trying to engage them and you try to do it with the Babylonian culture and you try to keep the music in the movies and try to do it too, you're going to lose. I'm just going to.

1:52:35 If you're going to try to compete with the world, you're never going to the world, is always going to be more cool and it's going to be more fun. So that is something I would just if anyone's interested, they can look into that and because it's pretty fascinating. Another layer is, I do think sometimes people feel Because they say, well I can't take Richard Bushman on. When we in 2016, we've published a Blog article on our lbs. Answers website, challenging rough, Stone Rolling, and Progressive Scholars. This was before we wrote any of our books and that was the first time. Anyone had officially challenged, the new narrative like out there just said, guys this is nonsense. We're taking this on and and and I saw people online They were like what in the world who are these people think they aren't, you know?

1:53:27 And I think because people were scared they're like well who would take Richard Bushman on like he's got a million degrees write his biography? I mean look at it. It's huge and thick like, I don't know that much, you know, so there is an element of fear. If there's fear to take on that Goliath, there's fear to an end and that's where faith comes in, where we have to have more faith as a people, we have to Get Down On Our Knees. We have to say, God, I'm willing to do this. What do I do? I'm willing to do whatever it takes, you know, and then the other aspect is, I think people need to understand the consequences and that's where more education comes in. We need to show people why the history matters we need to show.

1:54:08 Okay? This is how we've gotten off in our history of the nation. Here's how we've gotten off in our history of the church. It's having consequences. People are going to suffer. If you don't get involved, not something. We gotta teach our kids. Your life is not about you, right? And there's people Litter hurting and one day, you're going to face move. Those people in the face on the other side and they're either going to say thank you. You changed my life and generations are now saved. They're going to come up to you and say you knew why didn't you tell me? Yeah, yeah. I don't know how you get to this point, but I remember when I started this, right? I don't know how to do this, right? I'm a clown with a microphone.

1:54:54 I have no business doing this, but I remember, I remember distinctly when, when I was looking at my computer, I remember I brought a new computer home. I brought microphones home and my wife's like, what are you doing? And I told her and she said, well, you can cut done stupider things. So let me know how this works but I think As I remember looking at it and understanding that this would get personal, right, that? Yes, it, I'm going to have skin in the game. Now, I'm about to go throw my voice into The Ether and confess to everybody that I'm a Mormon fundamentalist, right? And I remember going, I don't know if I want to do this, right?

1:55:42 I mean, I'm by Nature, a pretty private guy. So to do this, that's just That crap crazy. I don't know how else to put it. But I remember there were, there were two words that came to me. Reckless. Abandon Just go all in. Don't hold back and I know it's uncomfortable. I get it. I get. It's uncomfortable. Yeah but If we're gonna win this thing, yes, we're going to need God's help and we're going to have to go forward with. Absolutely. No fear, right? Or I shouldn't say that with a lot of Courage, your I'm scared. Every time I do this, right? I mean that's always going to be there but being able to recognize it and go ahead and do it anyway. Yeah.

1:56:31 Absolutely. And I think, I think you have to be 100% committed and you have to know and I've had those times in my life where I got down and I like, okay, Like I need to know from you. I want to know 100% and and and honestly what the only thing that well, the two things that every day, when I don't want to do something, what drives me and gives me the strength to do it is one knowing What God wants me to do, number one, you know, having that that call that you feel, or that confidence really like okay, like God wants us to defend the gospel, God wants us to preach the gospel and this you know, and but number two on knowing that people need help.

1:57:19 Yeah, that's that is I think for me, that's what gives me the strength to keep going. When I'm sick and I can't keep going. I-i've had Had chronic health challenges, most of my life, there's days. I don't want to get out of bed, you know, but what always has helped me is thinking, okay, there's someone out there, even one person, and if one person gets helped, it's worth it because they need help in this can change someone's life. So I was talking to a friend about this actually a week ago because I said sometimes it's really really hard and she said Hannah and she said you don't know this but you making that choice changed my life and she started telling me and she was like, do you remember when you came to my house once whatever you number of years ago. And this is who I was and this is where I was and this is how I thought and now being able honestly through the scriptures and through Joseph Smith and that just opened the door to their family making tons of changes and she was like, I wouldn't know who I was.

1:58:24 I wouldn't my life would be completely different. She said if you hadn't done this, And that just reminded me. I was like, okay, that's one person that makes it worth it. And I think we meet our culture is so selfishly driven, but we've got to raise our kids, and we've got to teach our kids and we got to remind ourselves. You know, Jesus Christ came to Earth and he laid down his life. And that's what we're commanded to do. We were commanded to love one. Another just as Christ, loved us and if we can have that perspective, if we can look in the world, that is honestly what gives me the courage to get up and do things that scare me to death. Death is because I'm like, someone needs us help and we can do this. Absolutely. Absolutely.

1:59:05 We don't know the effect we're going to have on somebody else. We just don't, we might not ever know in this life. No, no, I remember. I remember when I knew that I was onto something doing this and it freaked me out. It freaked me out horribly. I was in bed and I couldn't sleep real well. And this was right after under the banner of Heaven came out. And I sat down with a friend of mine who was Mormon as well, and we do have deep into all these things, right? I mean, it was a three-hour podcast and we took apart blood atonement and we we talked about it and we, you know, what was Brigham saying and what was the context and I got a message at about 2:30 in the morning.

1:59:55 And I don't know why I was awake. I had to get up early the next morning but for whatever reason, it woke me up and I looked at it and it was someone who was saying me and my husband watched that. And we were we hadn't been to church in two weeks because we were freaked out because we didn't know what we'd signed up for. That's what's important right? And and we we're never going to see. We're never going to understand here. Yeah. How it is. That what we do? Send ripples into eternity but it does, it does. And if there's one thing that's been frustrating, it's been seeing people with amazing Stories who just won't engage, right?

2:00:43 And I'm like, you got so much to offer. Yeah, yeah, you got so much to offer, so yeah, I think you're right. Knowing that there's someone out there that's going to benefit from it, and then just put that fear and just go for it. Go for it. Go for it. Look back. Don't just keep your head down and just charge. I mean to be honest like people see what the Joseph Smith Foundation is today, realize in 2005, none of that existed. It was a dad and and my brother passed away and it was kind of in that process of shortly before. And after that just felt impressed like do video because like I've never touched a video camera for kind of like you with your equipment. Like he's like I do You know, anything about this? What do you mean do video?

2:01:29 So he was looking in like do I go to film School? Figured out pretty quick. You can't keep yourself. It's so pornographic and it's so trashy. And my dad was like I'm not going there. I'm just not going there. I'm not gonna risk that. And and so he figured out ways to buy tutorials and watch them home and self-taught and had us, learn right along. And in the home and that's not possible, people would tell you that's not possible. People would tell you, there's no way someone could write books and do this kind of research and things like that. It's not possible.

2:02:11 If you do it on your own, it go try it and do it on your own. And I'll just, you can just come back a few years from now and say. Yep I failed you know but you've gone. Yes. And honestly I think I I would be a completely different person. If I had been pushed into areas that I couldn't do on my own, because I had been to, you know, it's too easy to just rely on your own strength and just be like, oh, I got this, you know, but being pushed in situations where you have to rely on him or you can't make it through. It's a beautiful experience. I wish every single person could experience what it feels like because it's the most joyful thing in the entire world. It's the hardest thing, but it's also the most I'm joyful. I wouldn't trade it for anything. I wouldn't trade it for a million but gatien's. Yeah, absolutely.

2:03:04 Is there anything that we haven't covered yet? You want to hit on? Um, I think this guy, I think I got a little bit. Also if your nervousness is just I don't think we did, I think we answered it really well actually perfect. So yeah I would just tell I would just say if there's anybody that saying okay, I'm facing this new history and I'm wondering about First Vision book, modern translations here stones. It's pulling me like any of these things you can go to the Joseph Smith Foundation website and we're trying to get all those resources there from a traditional perspective when we have a lot of books and we have documentaries and if we don't have them we may have a project that you can volunteer with to help with or go to your own. Yep.

2:03:45 And I'll cheer you on. Well, let me ask you this question. Got a couple in to wrap up here. Where do you see this going? This, this new narrative that has come out. Do you think that there are enough people that recognize it for the falsehoods they are? It's changing. I'm definitely hopeful and we definitely have a lot of work ahead. We're a little behind the game. It was interesting because shortly after boy, keep hacker died. There was a scholar who was talking and he was basically Do you like well now we can kind of you know kind of last holdout is pulling that had been involved you know, in these controversies. And and so I'm not I'm not gonna lie that we have a lot of work to do and it can feel like we're outnumbered but um, But there are people that want to hear and as we talked about before, I believe, Zion is meant to be built. And I believe that that means a progressive would say yes. That means on a progressive Foundation, I would say no that has to be on Joseph Smith Foundation. That it is true and that it is solid. I believe Joseph's boys are here and a lot of them are sleeping. Yes, just like you were seeking will said but God will. Map and we will do this.

2:05:15 And we have to do this. We have, we have to build a better future for our kids. If you don't want to do it for yourself or someone that's hurting, do it for your kids, but and don't get discouraged. And even if one heart is turned, I mean, when we started no one knew about this, no one had ever heard of Leonard Arrington and no one was questioning rough Stone Rolling. That was Six years ago, five, six years ago. And look at the difference today. That's just one family. We we've talked about this a little bit already, but we talked about, you know, just one person right?

2:05:56 Just doing something, you know who George Whitfield is. Yes, I'm sure you do. I do? We don't have Washington and we don't have Franklin. We don't have Jefferson if we don't have Whitfield first, right? And maybe maybe my job, maybe somebody else's job isn't To be whoever. But maybe you're there. Yes, set that up. Yes and George Washington's. Mom did just as important of a job as George Washington? Yeah absolutely. Yep. If someone is here in this and they want to reach out and help support the Joseph Smith Foundation, how can they do that?

2:06:36 Okay, so they can go to the website and they can contact us through. True Joseph Smith at gmail.com, or they can if they want to reach out to me directly, they can go to, they can email Hannah dot Joseph, Smith Foundation at gmail.com and where we have some of the contact information on our website. We have a Facebook page, we've got, you can follow us on social media. Is there anything in particular that you guys need more of right now? Is it just more bodies? I mean, what is it? You guys could sit really use? Absolutely. Yes, I would say probably, Any, we definitely need people who are talented in graphics and web and video, meaning that they have those skills.

2:07:24 And if you don't have those skills, one thing that I encourage parents to do is do that for your home school. But if you're homeschooling train, your kids to have skills. So they can go and do this. But even people that just want, that are like, can't do any of those things but, you know, I can reach their stuff on social media. I can leave reviews. That is one big thing that So much is leaving reviews on Amazon people. Don't realize, actually, how big of a role that place in search engine optimization and marketing and Google, and things like that. So, just leaving reviews, we do have this project where we're trying to organize, all of Joseph, Smith's teachings, by topic. You have most of Joseph, Smith's done, but we're moving forward to do all of those who knew Joseph Smith.

2:08:06 So those that were tutored by him like Heber C, Kimball Brigham, Young and Eliza R snow which I personally am very excited. Itit about. We're going to do some devotional books and fun things like that, for women and based off her teachings. So, honestly, it's just kind of where people are at and what they feel like they want to do. If they feel led to reach out, please do, I'll find a spot. All right, well, we've done two hours and five minutes. Damn it, you are so awesome. I mean, that your whole family does the work you guys have done, just can't be overstated and are continuing to do. And I encourage anyone out there listening if you have time on your hands and you want to devote to a worthy cause I can't think of anything better than the Joseph Smith foundation.

2:08:55 So go check that out. Thank you thing else. You want saying in closing I would just say I just, I just want to say for the anyone that's doubting or ever has doubts, huh? I want them to know that I have a testimony. That I know there was a time in my life where I said, you know, I believe believe Joseph Smith is a prophet. I think I know the book horns. True. But I know, huh. And I know it and it is true and this there is no more important work than spreading to this world because it is the only answer we have and it will change the world. It can help so many people. So, it's worth every sacrifice to do awesome. All right, everybody will talk to you next time. Thanks.