Episode #49: Therefore Choose Life W/Deanna Holland of Pro-Life Utah

0:06 Okay, if you got kids under the age of 13, listening to this podcast, stop the podcast and get him out of the room. Younger children should not be exposed to this. I take every episode of this podcast, seriously, but this episode. It's as serious as a heart attack, I had a good friend. Once said, if you look at the Old Testament, God finally, let's judgment come to Israel. Every time they start, Sacrificing their children to Baal and moloch. Well the practice of sacrificing children is still here and I'm not just speaking metaphorically on the podcast today, I have on Deanna Holland, she is one of the organizers of pro-life Utah. Today we have a conversation about abortion. We cover the history of this horror show, both pre and post Roe v-- Wade.

0:49 Then we talk about the actual practice. After that, we talk about the Dobbs decision and what it actually means regarding ending the practice of abortion and you Splash it isn't great. Eight. Finally, we talked about what we can do to do as Moses said, and choose life and join the fight. I'm pretty used to receiving a certain amount of hate mail by doing this podcast. But after this episode, I think that's going to go up tenfold and I'm just fine with that. I've counted the cost and I'll die on this hill. This just might be the most important episode I've done to date. And that's next on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast, Because of your generosity last year, I was able to buy better audio equipment and software. I can't tell you how much it meant to me. That not only did you spend your time here with me on the podcast but also that you found enough value. In what I'm doing that you donated the podcast upgraded this year, I want to continue to grow. Now I want to add video to the podcast continue to help you my guess a myself connect better through the show. The other feature I'm working on for this podcast is something I I have to remain vague about for now. But what I can say is that it's something that will help us better connect as fundamentalist and traditional LDS. Folks, now to get that equipment for the video content, I want to do and to build the infrastructure for the other project with this podcast donations would certainly be welcome or you can go to Mormon Renegade.com. Click that supply store button

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3:08 Intent. Thanks. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Well DNA, it's nice to have you on the podcast. I can't tell you how excited I am that you're here. Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

3:49 So I gotta tell you. This is one of those topics where people say, it's the third rail of politics, right? Don't touch it right day. I want to touch it. I want to jump on it. I want to throw it around. I really want to get to the bottom of all of it, so to speak. Because because I think there's two reasons here, one is that when we think about How important this topic is abortion? We're dealing with human lives. Now, the the other side can call it a fetus, a clump of cells, or whatever. But at no place, I've had six children.

4:30 No at no point in that. Just a tional period. Will that clump of cells be anything. Except a human being, it won't be a Coke, can it won't be an orange and it will never turn into a transmission to a 79 Buick. That is a person The other reason it's been so important to me is because two of my six kids we adopted and we adopted them from a from my sister and she was on meth and she was the Twins were in horrible shape. And I remember I was always been pro-life, but this made me like way pro-life. I I was talking to one of the doctors and he said, had we had our druthers, we would have went ahead and aborted. Those Twins, and I watched those twins fight for every scrap of Life.

5:25 They got right? I mean, and it took many surgeries and it took many many hours of physical therapy, but today, they're 17 years old and they hold jobs and they go to work and crap. I didn't want start this already. They They thrive in school and they have a bright bright future ahead of them. And so, when I start talking about this topic, it really is one of those things that has turned me into the moat for the most part into, like a one-issue voter, right?

6:06 I'm like, tell me where you stand on the side of life and then we can talk about everything else from there. So, it's just an honor to be able to speak with you as you represent. Isn't pro-life Utah here and yeah so I just really can't pre tell you how much I appreciate you being here. Oh thank you. Thank you so much. So my see you in the twins. Yeah yeah. Well my wife really is the rock star there. But real quick. What got you into this fight? Okay. So I was a mom, I was an apprentice for a home birth Midwife. So I went to a lot of births and I wanted to get involved. I had this desire.

6:51 I kept looking online to see if there was an organization. I could join something I could do and all I found were National organizations, right? And I didn't have a lot of money, right? Then I had time and I had passion and so off and on every couple of Years. I'd look. And I'd try to figure out what I could do and there just wasn't something. And in 2016 I heard an advertisement or saw something that the March for Life was coming up the national March in DC and God really put it on my heart to go to the local March and I thinking that, you know, we live in Utah. There must be a local, March decided I was going to go and so I literally joined Facebook. That's Day to see if I could figure out where. And when the local March was, and that's when I found pro-life Utah, they were about 5 months old, a brand new organization and they told me there is none.

7:53 And so I said, well to myself, I guess I can't go and God said, I think you should go Deanna, I think you should do something. And so this was just the weekend before the national March, the weekend before, Martin Luther King jr. Day. So it was a long weekend and finally, I decided if it's just me and my stroller and my kids, and one sign, we were going to walk from Washington, Square up to the Capitol and have our own little March, and on Sunday, I messaged pro-life Utah. And I said, if I put this on, will you guys come? And they said, yes. So I prepared a little speech on Tuesday. I got my permits and on Wednesday, I started promoting it and on Friday we had our first March for Life in Utah.

8:43 I'm in 2016 and so that's kind of how I met up with pro-life Utah when they were a new organization and how I got started. They said, hey you seem like a go-getter come to our meeting and that's where I got my title and, and where I started because it was an organization of about five or six people. At that point. Holy cow. What are you up to now? I don't even know because we have so many, we have so many volunteers and some of them, you know, come to our baby showers and, and come to our events but aren't, you know, super involved. So it's really hard for me to even count, but a lot and I look back at, you know, how the five of us used to do everything, and I am so grateful all the time because we've grown so much. There's just no way we could operate without our volunteer Force.

9:31 That's also that's Mmm. You know, I think we take for granted because we live in Utah that we're just naturally pro-life, right? And then we have this, I don't know these blinders on a little bit. I don't know if you want to call it the bubble or just what it is, but we just tend to be like, well, it's Utah, I mean yeah we're pro-life right? I mean, but that's not necessarily the case. So couple things we you know found out a lot of people in Utah, think that there is no abortion in Utah. And they just aren't educated enough to understand that row held Utah hostage also. So the whole entire time I've been with pro-life, you try we have, I've met people over and over again that say well we don't have abortion in Utah so that's part of the problem, right? Is not even knowing that it's here. And then we have a were so nice and you Tha that we don't want to tell anyone what they should do. And so we get a lot of people that feel like, well, I'm personally pro-life but I don't want to tell someone. One what to do.

10:34 And I'd say that's really indicative of a lot of the, the citizenry sometimes of Utah not all. We have a lot of very wonderful pro-life people but we don't like to boss anybody. No, no, I know and I get it and it's it's one of those things where you're like sometimes the situation calls for a little bit more boldness. Right. And and I think most people like I could be wrong but I think most people you could wake him up for a coma from a coma and be like now quick. It's a human life and they'd be like, well, yeah, if that's a human life. And and so I tend to look at it like it would be a lot like saying your pro-jewish but you don't want to ever tell somebody else, you know, not to kill him during the Holocaust, right? I mean, it's yeah, if I try to do these thought exercises over and over and I keep coming back to it. So real quick, what was the history of? Of abortion within the United States. I mean, pre pre Roe v-- Wade.

11:39 Yeah, so actually, I looked this up last night because I hadn't really dealt with anything pre-roll, right? Rose been with us. So long row was there before I was born but essentially the state started passing laws in the 1800's to Outlaw abortion and they were all different because these were state laws and by the Every single state had a law against abortion. So, you know, the United States was a pro-life country at that point and it wasn't until the 1960s, right? And that women's movement, that we started to look at things different.

12:22 And even in that women's movement, they never many of those women that fought for the right for abortion, never realized. What would happen after they got it? Right, I remember reading an article about a woman who fought for Roe who fought for women to be able to have abortion because she thought that it was going to be for those rare exception cases, those women that are really in need and in hindsight as she looked back at what had happened since Roe was passed, she had regret that she had ever helped get it passed because it has become a cultural thing to say oh you're in this situation. You need to have an abortion or you're unmarried, you should have an abortion or you're poor, you should have an abortion, right?

13:10 So the the idea of behind, you know, why they wanted row some, right? Some of those people in those movements during the 60s had to do with those hardship cases and they just didn't realize what was going to happen once they passed it. So we had that movement really started in the 60s. Margaret Sanger had started the organization, the Ended up becoming Planned Parenthood, way back in 1921 so between 1900 and the 1960s. You know, we had kind of that birth control movement going but not really an abortion Desiring country until those women's rights in the 1960s and so Roe. V-- Wade came in 1971 didn't get decided until 1973 on January 22nd. and it opened up abortion for all 50 states and the United States became a legal abortion country at that point in time and You know, row was was huge.

14:19 Can you can imagine going from no abortion, right? Utah was a no abortion State. Premier 02. Now, Utah, having to let women have an abortion up to the age of viability. So I don't know how much, you know about row, but row, used, a trimester framework, and so nothing could be restricted in the first trimester. Women could just get an abortion. Anytime, in the first trimester the second, trimester the state, Could put some restrictions on, but they couldn't outlaw them. And then the third trimester, because of the interest of the baby states were allowed to, you know, Place restrictions on abortions and so that's how Utah, you know, ended up with that first and second, trimester legal abortions to to row, and this was in the 70s, right? The other formative case, Was unheard. And yes, Casey, and I'm just making sure it was Casey versus Planned Parenthood and that happened based off of law that got changed in Pennsylvania.

15:33 In 1988 19, 1989, Pennsylvania, decided to put some restrictions on abortions and this included a 24-hour waiting period and minor had To at least have one per parent for permission rules, like that and so Pennsylvania passed this law. Of course, their abortion providers were upset and they sued. And so this is the other big ruling from the Supreme Court. And so that went up to the Supreme Court. And in 1992, the Supreme Court cited, in this case e versus Planned Parenthood, that states are sorry that women had the right.

16:16 Right to an abortion but the state had an interest in potential life. And so instead of the trimester framework they went to a standard of undue burden, right? So in the first and second trimesters were not allowed to put an undue burden or a substantial obstacle onto a person, wanting abortion. And so between Roe and Casey, that's kind of where we're at. In the state of Utah. Planned Parenthood was doing elective abortions up to 22 weeks until Roe v-- Wade, fell in the state of Utah. And I know because I've counted that we are well over 100,000 babies killed since Roe. We didn't even start tracking till the 1980s. And when I started, I counted up all of our statistical numbers from the 80s onwards.

17:08 So a few years ago is when I did this and we were over 100,000 at that point. So we're well over as in babies in Utah that have been killed because of that row ruling. Wow, you know, it Because I'm a huge nerd and I don't sleep a lot. I tend to read a ton. And so once I got super passionate about this, I went back and I said, okay, let's look at what the founders had talked about because I tend to go back there and you can find a law all the way back to, like the 1700s. Which said that after the time of the quickening, it was illegal to have an abortion. And you start trying to decipher what the quickening is and essentially, it's once you know, right? I mean there wasn't, there wasn't a lot of welcome. Yeah.

17:59 When she can feel the baby move. Yep. Yep. And and so that was that was a huge thing. The other thing I studied a lot on was Margaret Sanger in particular. And what people don't realize is, this is a woman who comes from a very broken Home her. She suffers a massive blow to to or family when she's a young girl. There are some men that break-in beat her up. I mean, do some horrible, horrible things, but she becomes profoundly racist in in her later life. She refused refused, excuse me. She she refers to blacks and Asian's is human weeds. And You know, in this might just be me and I see the world through a very black and white ones. I don't like a lot of gray area.

18:53 And so, I tend to look at this, and I'm like, this has been dirty all the way through. And then you have where she makes speeches at klan rallies. She she ends up partnering up with the you Genesis, who were really the folks who give the the Third Reich, the idea of a final solution. I mean, this history is not A clean history whatsoever. And this is a history that I'm just going to call it like, I see it. And look, I'll be honest. If I don't get a strike on YouTube for this, I haven't done my job but she this is a profoundly evil practice, founded in darkness, and evil and lies.

19:36 So even back, like, even in the 60s right now. A role was this big organization and Bernard. Jensen was one of the founding members of naturale and he ended up I mean, pro-life near the end of his like later, right? And he tells how they just lied. They made up those numbers of how many women were dying from Back Alley abortions. How many they just made it all up and the News took it, because it was what they wanted to hear, right? It fit the agenda that they had at the time and so yeah, it's profoundly evil. It's been propped up by allies and we still prop it up with those same.

20:16 Lies even today. Absolutely absolutely. So, when Roe v-- Wade is past the floodgates kind of come open. Yeah. And it is it is the taking of life on a massive scale that I would dare to say mankind has not seen my prayer. Is that one day my kids can look back on my generation go. What what, what the hell is the matter with them? I mean that's that's my hope. But we've lost millions of lives now. Yeah, over 60 estimated 60 million in the United States. Cool. And then it I don't think it's a secret also that through things like UNICEF and other things, we've kind of helped export that overseas, even if I'm not mistaken.

21:06 I don't know if you have any information on that or not that my fingertips, but yeah, we have as a country. We've pushed that in other countries. So now folks, if you have little kids in the room, I gave a warning at the very beginning of this. I want you to cover their ears, or get them out of the room because, you know, this, this next part. So I'm going to be a little rough. Can you just explain so that we have an idea? I'm not what I'm looking for. Is less score as possible but the same time I think it's important that we be perfectly clear on what an abortion is and how it's done. Okay, so if your listeners want to go and look and see and watch a former abortion provider describe each procedure a really great resources abortion, procedures.com it's it's done with drawings, right? But it's still really powerful and actually kind of difficult to watch but you can go through each of the different types of the procedures in general, the state of Utah. We we use three procedures because we don't do the third, trimester abortions.

22:21 But in the first trimester you've got two options and one of them is the abortion pill which is also called a medical abortion and it's actually two pills and a woman does this basically on her own. So she goes to the abortion clinic, they have her swallow the first pill, okay? It is mytha per Stone and my prayer stone is Progesterone blocker. And so it essentially stops the nutrients from getting to the baby, the progesterone is a nutrient supplier, right? You need progesterone to have a successful pregnancy and so they give her this progesterone, blocker, it takes that space up in the cells that progesterone normally takes and it blocks progesterone from getting to the baby. And so they send her home after swallowing this pill and they tell her to take the second pill, which is misoprostol or cited to Check depending on, you know, name brand or whatever and she takes this at home.

23:19 And that second pill is the pill that causes the contractions. That will then expel her baby and we know that not all babies. The first pill, starves your baby to death. The second pill expels it, but not all babies are deceased at 24 hours. Okay? So some babies are being expelled, while they're still alive. And so a woman is that home and she takes that second pill and all of a sudden she is bleeding and cramping hard and abortion providers. Even our Planned Parenthood will tell her sit on the toilet. Don't look at what comes out when you're done just flush.

24:04 Okay? So we're flushing these babies down the toilet and they're telling them, don't look because a woman has been Misinformed right Planned Parenthood does not tell them what their babies like and they do this abortion pill up to 10 weeks and so you have a Mama I've had two miscarriages, I know what babies this size and age, think you look like and so to be someone who takes that pill thinking, it's nothing but some cells and tissue and then seen your tiny baby would be very difficult. And so I really think the abortion Pill is a horrible way there alone.

24:47 They're misinformed. And all of a sudden they have their baby right there staring at them just actually you know it's a hard it's a hard thing. That's why they're told to sit on the toilet. Don't look and flesh. So that's the medical abortion pill option. It's an option up to 10 weeks. It's very popular in the state of Utah. Yes. Can I stop you right there? Real quick. And I have done this before we delve into this part. Art. But before we get into the next option, what does a woman encounter when she goes to Planned Parenthood? Okay, so I apologize. I threw that one at you, Kono, that's okay. I know this really well. It's not a problem.

25:28 A few years ago, we actually passed a law based off of some undercover work that we did and we sent women in at the time we had a law that looked really good on paper, you know, the abortion provider had to tell the mom about the exact development of her baby. So if you were seven weeks along, they had to tell you the development of the seven. Weak baby. They had to tell the mom, what the procedure would do to the baby. This was all in statute and so we sent women in and to take this informed consent class and we had them audio record it and we were able to tell that what Planned Parenthood actually did was skip those two very important sections all together.

26:12 In fact, I've got a I've got a piece of paper here and this is one that they handed out. Way? They describe all abortions up to 22 weeks. Is this one sentence in the clinic your doctor or nurse will use? Gentle suction to remove the pregnancy. That's all they told you rate. So they're not describing anything for how how developed your baby is. They're not telling you these things that by Statute they were supposed to. So we went to the legislators and said we need to change this and what we've done is put that information into an online module. That the health department created, we had someone on the board that helped, it's actually quite, it's actually quite good. The problem is the health department didn't make it so you couldn't just scroll through it.

27:01 So I can get through the entire presentation in under 3 minutes and not watch a single thing. So we know that women are not being informed. We have tried to do our very best. That's one of the the cleanup things that we're going to try to get past the last two years, our build and even get into committee. Legislators were like nope. Don't we've done enough. We passed the trigger law. We've done enough and so we'd like to make it so you can't just scroll through, right? But women were not getting this information. Women did not understand exactly what the abortion procedures were because they weren't being told it by their abortion provider. And we had I think eight women go in and take it they read it off of a card.

27:45 So every woman got the exact same thing because they were reading off of this exact same laminated Good card from Planned. Parenthood gracious. So does Planned Parenthood do anything. As far as here's your options. You, you know, abortions are but you can also adopt or, you know, do they ought to do, they really do anything of that sort bill by law, they had to do some things. Verbally, there was a little sentence in there about adoption that they would read but in reality, not really, I mean, One of them, read the card. So fast it. What? I was amazed, I think I went back in time to that one later. Your there's no you don't they don't really want you to ask questions.

28:30 They're not really explaining anything, there's no diagrams, there's no pictures, there's no nothing. You know, if I was to teach you about this, I would utilize visuals. I would really be explaining it. I be asking you questions to see if you really understood and knew it but truthfully, they don't, they don't want women to know that information this important information about the fetal development of your baby and what the abortion procedure actually does to your baby. Those are the two things that are going to make you change your mind, right? So, right, why are why do they push abortion as hard as they do? What, what vested interest do they have in that? Do we know anything about that?

29:10 I mean it's a moneymaker but there's just I I don't I don't understand the ideology. We when we were on that committee, one of one of us, Mary Taylor a president with the health department Planned, Parenthood actually got to be on the committee for that also and I feel like there are people that follow that ideology that have no idea at one point. There was a couple of doctors on that panel at one point when they were Discussing a sentence where it says be sure, you know, you want to do this because abortion ends, the life of a human being. She turned to the doctor and said, well, that's not true, you don't believe that do you?

29:52 It's not alive. And the doctor had to say, yes. That's that's medically accurate and so I think that we have people that don't see a nitty-gritty, they don't, they don't look into it. They just hear the tag lines and they go along and they believe I, it's almost impossible. Me to imagine, but I know they truly believe. That's, that's not a baby. That's nothing. That's, it's really weird. It's difficult to imagine frankly. Wow. Wow. All right, let's go on to the next procedure that can be done in Utah. Okay, so the next one is an aspiration abortion or a suction D & C. So like, when women have a miscarriage, sometimes they go in and and do a DNC to remove a disease. Baby.

30:40 So, the difference is that the baby is still alive when you do this procedure, right? The whole purpose of an abortion is to kill a baby before it comes out, right? So this one's done up to 12 weeks, the doctor dilates the cervix with these dilator instruments, and then he inserts a suction catheter into the uterus and then they turn the suction on and the living baby is then suctioned into pieces essentially. And then they you Use tools to scrape. Any remaining tissue from the walls of the uterus. And this is essentially a DMC but on a living baby and we have women in Utah that get confused, right? Because some women have contacted us in think that because they had a miscarriage and then a DNC after that, they have had an abortion and that's absolutely false. Abortion abortion is the purposeful killing of an unborn, baby.

31:38 It's not the removal of Deceased baby after a miscarriage. So in approximately, what, what period of gestation does a DNC usually happen first trimester because the babies are small and their baby are their bones in there. They're so soft that they can be suctioned through that tube that tube. Yeah, I watched a video once I've been on this for a little while now on this topic and I met a woman who I don't know how she did it, but she got out like one of the recordings of when one was done.

32:19 And the most heartbreaking part. As you could see the baby trying to get away. And, you know, obviously there's no place to go, but it's absolutely a horror show. Now, those are the only two types that can be done in Utah. Now, those are just the two first trimester. So there's one more second, trimester procedure. That is probably the most horrific of them all and it's called a DNA It's dilation and evacuation. It's done between 13 and 24 weeks. So, in Utah, they stopped up to 22, right? Viability basically our Utah. Statute said, if it's even may be possible to be viable, so I feel like, that's why I planned parenthood ended at 22, not 24 in the state of Utah, but between 13 and 24 weeks is. When this procedure is done, the babies bigger, it can't be suction through a catheter.

33:18 Anymore, it's bones or harder. So basically what the abortionist has to do is they, they perform a dismemberment procedure on a living baby. So the doctor again, dilates the woman's cervix and then uses what they call a. So for clamp, and it's a clamp that has sharp teeth on it so that when it grabs tissue it doesn't slip, right? And so they will use this. So, for cramp to just blindly reach into the you Uris and grab whatever part of the baby, they can grab and it's going to usually be an arm or leg. Sorry it's kind of hard to describe this. Yeah and they will, they will grab and they will jerk and they will pull that limb off and then they'll put it on a tray, reach back in again, grab whatever they can and grab, rip it and pull it hard and quick so that they can get that limb off and they'll do this until basically most of the time you have a torso and head Had left and in order to get the head out, you have to crush it. It's baby is alive.

34:33 When they start at a certain point, this baby will succumb to its injuries and it will die. But this baby is being tortured in a way that we don't torture anything any living creature. Like this. I can't even, I can't even think of a situation where we do. Anything like this to any living creature, where they're alive, they're safe, they're small and vulnerable and innocent. And we literally rip them apart limb from limb while they're living, and that takes place in Utah today. Yes, yes, it does.

35:14 Yeah, it does. So I can go back for one second and tell you what has happened in the state of Utah. Since Roe fell, right? Because so in 2020, actually, I got to go back two years before that in 2020. We passed what we called, a trigger law and the trigger law said, if row ever Falls and the states are able to make their own laws for abortion, this is what our law will be and what we were able to get past. At that time was a No-No abortion after implantation except for those rape incest life of mother fatal, fetal anomaly exceptions that we already had our legislators really comfortable with those and we weren't able to work on those but we were able to get instead of 22 weeks. You actually couldn't have an abortion, right? For no reason.

36:14 Those elective abortions are gone and so this Law got passed in 2020, it was signed by the governor and it was just going to sit there until row v Wade, Wade fell. And I honestly, I didn't know if row would ever followed been almost 50 years, right. But we had it waiting in the wings just in case and then the Dobbs case happened and it went up to a different Supreme Court than we had had. Right and on June 24th 2022, Roe. V-- Wade fell that That morning, it felt that morning Planned Parenthood, stopped abortions, by 6:00 p.m. that night.

36:54 There's a little bit of stuff that had to be done on the back end. Our law went into effect, okay? Saturday Planned Parenthood, and the Utah ACLU filed the lawsuit Monday morning. They were in court with Judge, Andrew Stone, who gave them a preliminary two-week injunction on our law which made It's so that they could do abortions for those two weeks, two weeks later when he did the hearing with them, he placed in that injunction on our law for the entirety of the lawsuit. So simply because Planned, Parenthood and ACLU sued. The state of Utah.

37:38 Our law is still not in effect but just later passed it. The governor signed it. Nobody said that it's unconstitutional. Even their cases. Like Planned Parenthood. And the ACLU are saying that you thought state constitution has the right to abortion in it. But what's happening? Because they were able to get this activist. Judge to put that on our law, it's going to be possibly years before our law can actually go into effect. And so there's a couple things on the horizon and that they're working on the Utah attorney. General's office is the one that is charged with defending our law. They put in a request to the Utah state supreme court to look specifically at the injunction.

38:23 And if the judge put that injunction on appropriately but we've been waiting for a few months now and we still don't have a date for that hearing. So I'm not sure when that would be the last we heard is it might be February but because I still haven't heard a date. I'm not sure, maybe it'll be March. The problem that we have though is that you talk rules. For those injunctions is actually quite lenient compared to National Stadium orders. And so we might not win at this level, they might say according to the rules that were there in plagues when he put that injunction on, that injunction can stand.

39:03 And so representative, Brady Brammer, who's actually my representative. North Utah County has a bill. It's actually a joint resolution, So hjr to that has gone through. Do the house committee and house floor and it has passed. His would bring our rules in line with national standards and it would put a little bit more responsibility on to Judge Stone to prove why he has the ability. Why heat why he's doing what he's doing, right? There's more responsibility for him to be able to prove that they're likely to win right there.

39:44 Likely to win the lawsuit. And he wouldn't be able to do that. Whether that's going to help this particular law. I don't know. It should help maybe upcoming laws. It's also hurt the same thing. Happened with the women's sports Bill. The that was trying to keep boys out of girls. Sports it it there was a lawsuit there it got an injunction. Right? I know that Senator Kennedy's working on the to stop. Ruiz and cross-sex hormones right on children that he's expecting a lawsuit, right? So this, these rules are kind of what causes the state of Utah. When we do good things that they get held up with these lawsuits, right?

40:33 So hopefully that gets passed, we're unsure whether it will help us in this case specifically. But right now Planned Parenthood has not lost a single abortion. The day they shut down on Friday when when I fell they just put them in the next week, right? No babies have been saved so far and that's why we held our event last Wednesday as a funeral for those babies that should have been saved. That were not. I know, I know of a couple of women that went to that and they said it was just shocking and Powerful the same time. Yeah. So this Judge Stone. It, who was he appointed by?

41:17 Governor Herbert. Oh, there's so many bad words I want to say right now. Holy know if it was really interesting. I listened to that hearing it was quite short was just about an hour. And at no point in time. Did anyone did he really talk about the effect that, you know, putting this on our log would do to any babies? It was like they weren't there and all I heard coming from his mouth were pro-choice talking points. It's so, you know, we don't have a hope in his court, we really don't, he is fully in the pro-choice mode so we know that this lawsuit has to get into the Utah, state supreme court in order to be able to have a chance so that can be two to three years.

42:12 Geez. Yeah, in that bill was that you were speaking about where it was going to require maybe that judged. To to do a little more analysis. That was touched. Jr2. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, it's a joint resolution. It has to have a two-thirds majority not just fifty percent. It has to have a two-thirds majority in order to pass and what you thought that's so far. When are they going to vote on that? It should be going to senate committee. Wait, did it go to senate committee this week? We probably should have some movement on it. Okay, actually, so if anybody four steps, right, to every law, basically, committee floor, committee floor, right?

42:56 So, to anybody listening in the Utah audience, now's a great time to get acquainted with your representative, get on the horn. And don't stop crash there their boards. I please crash of just keep calling until you get through and make sure you let them know. We're going to remember. Come election time. Next year, we have a very long memory because that's the only way this thing's going to get through. Yeah. And if you guys give it, you give me one second. I'll give you a phone number. If your listeners text the word life to this number, go ahead, you will get our legislative text alerts. It's three eight, five two hundred nine, nine to nine. And we that signs you up, when you text life to that, number that signs you up for our text alerts. And that's where we'll send you out information on each bill. It's actually a little form that you can fill out. You put your name and address in there. We figure out who your rep is who your Senator is. You know, we send it to the correct people, right? If it's a committee, we know the transportation committee emails, we put them in on the back end and your email goes to them. And You know, when to send things and what to send them about, we even give you some talking points to make sure that you understand each of these bills. And so that's a really great tool for you to help us be able to make change, right?

44:30 So that's a, that's a great easy tool, it's easy to do that, even better is doing that and then calling your rep or or your Senator, right fantastic. Let me ask you this. What was your feeling when the Dobbs kit decision came down? I mean like officially right we knew well ahead of time because somebody's dirty leak that but when it became obvious that that row was going to go away, what was your initial reaction You know, I think my biggest reaction was when it actually fell and it was almost disbelief, like, I just was walking around in this days of did this really just happen, right? I almost couldn't believe it.

45:21 And so it was just this days and I was I was so happy. I'm like, who do I call, what do I do? I wanted to just go to the Capitol and start shouting things but at the same time we had been planning a celebration Ian and yet we had on the back end, the FBI talking to us. We had Jane's Revenge, that was threatening things all across the country. They had been like harming Pregnancy, Resource, Center's, and and so we didn't want to place anybody In Harm's Way. So we actually waited a whole entire week to put our celebration on so that we knew what was going to happen. There was some some talk that maybe they would bust people in have some riots.

46:05 It's whatever. And so we were, we waited. So that day we really wanted to do something but at the same time we couldn't really. So we had to wait but it was a very interesting time but we had at that time, real hope that abortion was going to stop. We've been told by the legislature that it might take up to 30 days for our law to go into effect. So when it went into effect later that day, we were even more excited. And then the lawsuit happened and then we realized we fight Satan. That's who we fight and Satan loves his baby killing and this is a fight that probably will never truly go away. Yeah, we're still fighting it but the legislature right now we have bills that are trying to poke giant holes in our law. The law.

46:58 That's not even an effect yet so that you can drive semi trucks through them right. There's just it's this It's this war that I think will never end almost but we keep fighting. so, I've never told this story on there before, but I will here and look, for those of my listeners who aren't Mormon of any stripe, you're probably gonna want to turn this part out because I'm about to get all jaysus on you. So what I had I would for a couple years me and my wife and our four kids on the eastern shore of Maryland, and I had a good friend whose dad was a rabbi.

47:40 His dad's name was Zeke. And I remember I had questions for Zeke. Once I was like, you know, there's some stuff in Jeremiah that just doesn't make any sense to me, Jeremiah and Lamentations. Can you walk me through this? And he got real quiet. Like uncomfortable shifting his chair quiet. He's like we really don't like talking about that. And so, I just left it alone in about about three weeks later. He called me said, you know, I don't know why I can't get out of my head. Why don't you come over my house and we'll talk about so I go in and he sets me down and he walks me through a bunch of stuff. But essentially, the last part was the part that was so terrifying, which was he linked.

48:30 What was happening in Israel, the what was occurring in America, right then and continues to occur now and he said, God passed judgment on Israel. When Israel started to offer up their children. And it's it scared me to death when he laid out the whole thing, and I won't lay it all out here, because it's kind of complex, but it really struck a nerve. And so, I remember when the Dobbs decision came down, I was a static. I was like, we may have bought ourselves some more time. We can get our house in order, and that night, I was actually on my knees just in my private prayers and I was offering up Just basically a prayer Thanksgiving. You know, thanking the lord for for putting this into place. And what I got back with something I wasn't expecting, which was judgments, not done, yet. You have an inverted judgment.

49:32 I'm just giving people a time, you know, some time to sort themselves out because one of the things we saw with the Dobbs decision, is that in some places? Yeah. Like Alabama, they just shut it down. We're done. We're done. But places like California. They went Full Tilt. The other direction they went towards infanticide. Yeah. And it dawned on me, what that message meant, this was time for people to get their house in order, right? If you don't like what one States, doing it's time to vote with your feet and really think about moving because I really do believe this is a sifting period.

50:14 So, so is interesting that you thought about that that day because I have also thought about that, And Ivy, I realized that we had been propped up by row right row. Head. Tied our hands and made it so that we couldn't stop it and so it was easy. We could pass these little laws to try to crack down on it, a little, and make a little bit of change, but we really didn't have the power to stop it. And when row fell, the power is in our hands. The question is Are we going to do it? And that's the part that scared me because we have become a society that rejects God in a lot of ways. Even some of the people that believe in God, we follow the world and we follow that Outlook, right? And and we reject a lot of the things that God would have us do because we're following the world. And so the real question in my mind was what is the state of Utah going to do?

51:18 Because I know I know that you have to be really strong and really firm in order to get this law in place and then to keep it. And I'm not sure we have that, I'm not sure we're working as hard as we can. And yes, we have some really fabulous legislators but does the state of Utah really have the will, to do what we have to do, in order to avoid that condemnation. Now that the power is in our hands. Yeah. Yeah. Know that. I'm I'm glad to know. I wasn't the only one that had that thought because I felt like Debbie Downer at the party, right? Because all my friends were slapping high-fives and I'm like I would maybe back off that high five slap and for just a little while because I don't think this is over, right?

52:04 And yeah, I've told people that I know that live in California and look at this point. I'm 45, I'm married. I got six kids. I ain't trying to impress anybody, right? I'm like it's time now for you to get get out of there, right? I mean, If you're definitely opposed to this Now's the Time because really that's the only thing that I think will will save individuals at this point, right? You get to vote with your feet, go someplace else where those rules are strict more stringent and it's not It's not a mass kill State. I don't know how else to put it. I'm running out of ways to put. Put it, put it easy, but I think at this point those labels are gone, right? I also want to talk.

52:49 There's we have a problem and the problem is that the abortion pill is readily available and I'm not going to give the house of it's readily available, but it doesn't take much more than Google and let you know that my 14 year old daughter. Oh, with my permission, right? Me asking her to was able to order abortion pills online from out of the country for $20. And so this isn't something that the doctor is in Eastern Europe. The pills come from India. This isn't something that we have the power to stop unless we as a culture change, because they're calling it planned. See.

53:35 Now, by the way, the Portion pills are now called plan C. And the abortion activists are saying you don't even need to take a pregnancy test. You don't need to go to your doctor just take plan C, right? And that's the to abortion pills that I described to you. When you do that you don't have anyone checking. If you have an ectopic pregnancy, there's dangers to that. If you want to talk about people that don't care about women being safe, it's the pro-choice side. They will throw them under the bus. Is just so they can keep their abortions going. But this, this war right of abortion, it doesn't really have time to end probably till Jesus comes, right?

54:19 It is just a war and the only way in some ways we can really win that is by Taking Back our culture. Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more again being a super nerd especially for the u.s. founding. That's why I'm Moved from Idaho to the eastern shore of Maryland, was to immerse myself in it. And I I remember thinking at one point, if we want to kind of grab Society back, we're going to have to do some things that are as people who tend to be more conservative, we're not comfortable doing right.

55:00 That would be going out and, you know, getting involved in the media somehow, right? I always thought, you know, the Constitution will become cool. Again when we go ahead and put the founders back in there, right? Light is They were which were Rebels which were resistance to tyranny and until we do that, I don't think that's going to that's going to happen. And I think we have to do that as well with with this, with this topic as well. Somehow we're going to have to engage like we're really not comfortable doing. Yeah, so let. Yeah, let me give you an example.

55:40 So the satanic temple, the national satanic temple gave a what? Let their, their members vote on which state to hold their celebration in. And they picked some of the most conservative states and their members voted to hold that in Utah. And they had don't know if you remember, they held it on the steps of the Utah State Capitol and I could not let that go. And we decided to put on a counter protest because you don't get to celebrate abortion and Satan on the steps of our Capital without having the other side there. And so, we were there. But what was really interesting to me, was, how many people told me?

56:25 Oh, I don't want to go there. I don't want to be by those people. I don't, I don't want to get involved. I don't, you know, they can go. It's their right to have freedom speech and I'm like, sure, I'm not stopping. That right. But God expects us to do more and the fact that so many people were afraid to go be in the same place and to counter protest. That was really eye-opening to me and that's where those types of things. I feel like we have to become more willing to step out of our comfort zone. I stood there, you know, we gave them their space, right? I stood there a little ways off and we listen to Them hail Satan over and over and over and over again and celebrate abortion and talk about their abortion rich people.

57:16 They have a satanic abortion ritual and and yet you know it's like we're not willing. I haven't had so many people tell me. They don't really worship Satan. And I keep saying, yes, that's a tagline. They like to tell the media but all you have to do is look at what they do, watch what they do and and be there, you know, they do I Is there they worshipped Satan on the steps of our capital and so, yes, things that might be uncomfortable to do to go and do their important. We have to be God's Warriors at this point in time in order to take our culture back, we have to be willing to go into uncomfortable places. Did it change anything? I don't know.

57:58 All I know is that, I told God I would go, I would go because people needed to be there. We had to show that there were people that loved God and were against this on that day when they were doing what they were doing. Yes, it changed something and and It changed something in the fact that, you know, you and God are good, right? And, and that is sometimes, all we can take from this just because the problem is overwhelming and daunting doesn't mean we get to sit it out rights.

58:38 Just because we know Jesus wins in the end doesn't mean we get to set it out, right? Kind of the opposite, right? We got to step it up a little bit more. We got to get Walt and To all those people that always, I always hear him say, oh, had I been in Germany during the Third Reich, I would have definitely been, like, Oskar. Schindler would you would you really because now's your time, we're it's the same thing. It is the loss of human life. Where are you? Yeah. Where are you? And that's at the point where I start getting a little spicy. I'm like, look, I'm a dude that really quite lazy. All I want to do is sit on the couch, eat Doritos, get my Tennessee.

59:20 Football really dialed in. So I can have bragging rights and that's it but these are not the times we live in. Now these are the times that we have to be engaged harder than we've ever been been engaged for before and so if we don't jump in, we're in a world of hurt. Because now it's on us before it before we had. I hate to use the term this way, but we have the benefit of saying, well it's the feds right. They're going to take their money and there's nothing we can do. That argument is over, it is over now. It's on us now, it's on us and we had better get way active real quick. Right angry.

1:00:03 So what are other states doing now? I mean, how are other states faring in this process? Yeah, so some of them have had a lawsuits but they don't have an injunction during the lawsuit, so their laws are in place. Some of them are like us, right? Who had those laws but the injunctions have halted those laws like you were talking about, some of them are going full gung-ho. And making them an abortion destination, right? Colorado has said they're going to do that planned parenthood's talked about having mobile clinics right across the border, so that Utah, women can go and cross the border and get that service. So, there's a lot of different things happening, but there are some states whose laws are in place and functioning. Geez, well, it's good to know that those other states. Taking the stand.

1:01:00 But the states is scare me or Virginia and and California and New York where they're talking about. They even hate validating it, but they call it a post birth abortion infanticide. There's no other way around it. It's the one thing I'll say for the Dobbs decision there's no more Middle Ground. Right. There is no more middle, ground it for the side, that's on the side of, and I'll use your words here, that's on the side of Satan. The Masks have come off. Yeah. There are, there is no more middle ground and it will be interesting to see what happens.

1:01:42 We're coming into the legislative session time, right? Post jobs, and so Utah's, one of the earlier ones, so it'll be interesting to see what happens with each. Eight as they go through these time frames, you know, Utah, had our trigger law in place. And so that's why, when Dobbs fell, we had that, you know, go into effect for like a day. But some of these states are now going to be reacting to the jobs decision in this upcoming legislative session in their state. And so, it'll be very eye-opening. I think to see where some of them go. Very cool. Yeah. Um, Let me ask you this, a lot of times we hear this thing about, well, it's for the mother's health, it's for the mother's well-being.

1:02:30 What kind of are there any side effects that a mother experiences after an abortion? Sure, or even during right. So Planned Parenthood list. Some of the possible physical complications. There's more than this, but I'm just going to read off some of the ones that they list in their literature. The paper that I showed you earlier, and so it can be an incomplete abortion, which means if you did, the abortion pill, maybe not everything came out. So you have to go in and do another suction abortion. You can have retained tissue, which can then cause an infection can cause heavy bleeding. We've got uterine blood clots, you can have allergic reaction to medications, you can have a physical injury or perforation to your cervix uterus or other organs.

1:03:19 They even list and they list death as a possible side, effect for abortion and those are the ones that are listed on their hand out. Like I said, there's more as far as psychological trauma and damage. So many of the since abortion is so politically. So many of these studies are politicized and you kind of can't trust them. So when we go to something, we actually go to, it was a quantitative analysis done by dr. Priscilla Coleman? And she went and took 22 studies from six countries and looked at the data from those studies. And from that she concluded, that there was an overall eighty-one percent increase in risk of mental health problems. And those included things like a 34% increase in anxiety, disorders, 37 percent increase in depression, 110 percent increase in alcohol, abuse, 220 percent increase in marijuana, use or abuse and a hundred and fifty five percent increase in suicidal behaviors.

1:04:27 So if you're talking to me Deanna, I know quite a few post-abortive women and so I'm going to list off to you the things that I know. These women that I know have gone through. So personally self-harm cut call abuse risky behaviors, right? Due to self hatred, drug abuse, agoraphobia depression. These are all things that women I know have suffered with post-abortion and so there are a lot of things. It doesn't make logical sense that a woman can go and have her child killed and have no, Effect from that. We also host a post-operative support group that has an eight week course to help women be able to open up that wound and go through the stages of grief and processing. What?

1:05:24 What happened to them? Write what they chose and so this is something that that we know affects women. We know it does. But in some ways women are Are preyed upon right. They get in these difficult circumstances. They get pressure. We had one woman we were working with that. We were hoping she would not choose to have an abortion, but the pressure from her family and the boyfriend. She drove / into that clinic, right? Women are feeling the effects of pressure, they're feeling the effects of pressure from Life circumstances from society. Telling them, this is what they should do from men who don't want to take care of it. Sadly enough.

1:06:06 There are Of those men. And so, you know, when we are out on the sidewalk with our mobile clinic and our sidewalk Advocates, we look at these women and have a lot of love and compassion for them, and we offer them help and hope because we don't want them to suffer. What comes from an abortion, we want them to hold their baby and to be happy and to take a totally different path. A path. If that leads to peace right? Not the path that goes to something that you can never undo. Yeah, just the five hundred percent increase in suicidal, ideation that 155%. Sorry 155%, would I say 500?

1:06:58 It's amazing that I have any listeners. It really is. Um, a hundred and fifty five percent, right? And we're in an era, where mental health is just Just pounded on constantly. Yeah, but yet we dive into this a hundred and fifty five percent across-the-board, multiple countries that this study was done in. That's absolutely Insanity. What? And as you've opened up that clinic for mothers who have Had that gone through that, I can't imagine the the Carnage that's left behind. So yeah, that's our group our group meets just in a home weeks. It goes through a program and it just helps them. Some of our moms are women.

1:07:48 There are women. Can't even talk say the word abortion. They can't talk about it. It hit. They stuff it inside and the effects come out in those self-harm, right? But they stuff it inside, think they'll never tell anybody. Think that they're just going to try to forget about it and it's something that's hard to forget, right? And so we just help them be able to start opening that up and take that out and start that healing process to be able to really take a look at that and start to forgive themselves. It's very difficult, a difficult thing for them. So our mobile clinic is an ultrasound clinic and we park it in front of Planned, Parenthood, mostly the to planned parenthood's in Salt Lake, they do abortions only at the Metro Clinic. There are surgical abortions are all done there. At the salt lady Clinic, they do the abortion, informed consent classes, and they will do the abortion pill gorshins and so what we do our ministry with these women, as to be outside where they're coming to, right?

1:08:53 We know abortion minded, women are coming to these locations and so we have Advocates that are trained through the national sidewalk advocates for Life, Training organization, and we lovingly and kindly Approach them and offer them the services that are in our Clinic, which is pregnancy test and ultrasound a chance to see their baby. When a woman accepts that invitation, then we bring her inside the clinic. We're parked right there, right? We bring her inside the clinic. We give her an ultrasound, let her see her baby, and then talk to her about the ways that we can help her through what we call, our life grant program. And that life, grant program is available to any of these women that were on their way to You either take that class or have an abortion and it offers them up to three thousand dollars monetary help.

1:09:44 A lot of these women are going in for monetary problems. It offers them, two of our women's support team members to be there for them, to help them navigate the crises that are going on in their life. So some of our moms have housing problems or no car or no job or a an abusive boyfriend or whatever it is, we give them those two women and all of our resources and support to be able to work with them, to try to get them to a place of stability, by the time, their baby comes. So that's our goal. We love you, we help you. And then at the end, we give them a baby shower and they have all the baby supplies that they need.

1:10:28 We make sure that they have everything that they need and so that's what we're out there doing, and it's working. It's working. It's a Out of work. It's one-on-one. We have 25 women currently in our program, we saved 54 babies in 2022 and it's we do the hard work. I have driven to Wyoming, you know, whatever it takes. That's what we do because these women have no support system and that's why they're walking in there, so we become that for them. Do you have any stats on how many women still? Choose abortion. Once they see the ultrasound.

1:11:11 Yeah, so the stats from our Clinic are at 80% right now which is pretty standard the save, the stork Suzanne. A National Organization. That helps put these mobile clinics out around the country. We are not part of them but their statistic is 8% also. So it's fairly common. We have some pretty difficult cases, you know, some of the women that men are are very abortion minded. We're To Pregnancy Resource Center. That sees a lot of low-income women that are already wanting to keep their baby and just need that help and support. We're literally pulling the women in off the sidewalk that are in the process of aborting their babies.

1:11:55 That's an amazing stat though. 80% of the women that see the ultrasound end up choosing life. Yeah, that's, that's amazing. God bless you. God bless you. So, What do you think the biggest hurdle is that that you guys faces it just laws? I mean is it just I mean what's your biggest roadblock? Oh, so laws would be a huge deal, right? If we didn't have planned parenthood, able to do 3000 abortions to here. We could save more babies, but we also have a problem that they're going to be opening up clinics across the border, they're going to be sending abortion pills, they're making State's abortion does abortion destinations.

1:12:44 I mean California's talked about paying for women to come to California from It's like are to be able to get an abortion for free. So you're taking, they're taking away all of those obstacles that sometimes make a woman, pause and try to find another solution. So, there's multiple obstacles that we have in our path, even when our law gets put into effect, will still be working to find those women who, who possibly, we could change their mind, change the trajectory of what they choose. So I'm moms love their Babies. It's so interesting because it's like blinders on a horse, right? These women are walking into that clinic thinking. There's only one path that they can do, and they can't see anything else available to them.

1:13:31 And we take them and we and we say well that's not like a really great path. Don't you want this one? And we turn their heads a little bit and we show them the path of life and the path that will help them. With all of these things they're struggling with and they can have their baby and it is amazing to watch the change in them when they are given the power to to be a mom to keep their baby when they feel supported and like that is a path that's open to them. It's amazing to. It's a beautiful thing to see. I'll share another story here I have. I've never shared with very many people. Much less throwing my voice into The Ether on it, but my son got married way young because, you know, he was 18 him and his girlfriend were messing around and, you know, it happened and I remember I remember, he came to talk to me about it. And fortunately, it's one of the few times I did something, right, because I didn't freak out inside. I was freaking out inside.

1:14:40 I was like, I would write weights a lot that night, right? Like fortunately, the gyms open 24 hours and I told told my sweet wife, I'm like, I gotta go with this. This is bad, but The thing I remember is, is I can either make this hard or I can can try to make this as easy as I can. Yeah, because we're dealing with a human life. Now, we're not dealing with with rules on Chastity or and I'm totally for those, right? You're talking to, to a pretty conservative, Mormon God, right? It would save a lot of trouble if went right back to those as a society.

1:15:23 Yep. However, as long as I think we're people, we're going to continue to have this, right? And so it's one of those things where I think we have to reprogram. Ourselves a little bit right where where we don't lessen what's happened. But yet we also don't hit the freak out button and create an opportunity for something way worse to happen and that's that's a hard thing to do. That's crazy. And often times I've wondered, if there doesn't need to be training for for just your run-of-the-mill, parents on how to respond to this, right? I mean, because I've heard of cases and I could Be wrong. But, you know, a young woman says, you know, me and my boyfriend were screwing around.

1:16:08 I got pregnant and my parents freaked out and now she's really out of options, right? Right. They're going to kick me out of the house. The interesting thing though today is that we with our teen moms haven't had that when we meet a Teen Mom, a first thing we want them to do is to go tell their parents. Yeah. And all of our teen moms parents. Have been wonderful. All of them have been wonderful and so it's almost the fear that the teenagers have almost more than what the parents reaction ends up. Being that is driving them into that clinic, and that's not all parents, right?

1:16:49 I'm sure some of them screw it up, but we have this societal fear, right? That we gotta cover up certain sins, more than others, and this is one that people want to cover up. And I just Want to tell them? No, no, no. You know, the form of abortion is even more than what, than the harm of, you know, while checking the law of Chastity, right? Yeah. So we don't want to cover up the law of Chastity breakage by by killing your baby. Like just for these moms, you know, we totally care about these Mom's, right. We don't want them to suffer these Harms. In any way, right?

1:17:34 Medically or psychologically or even, you know, eternally, right? So yeah, we I think parents in our experience, they've done a pretty darn good job. It's just sometimes we are the people that are there at that place at the right time to be able to help them talk to their parents. Even had one of our cute little teen moms who was determined to do it. And her mom said, okay, I'll go with you. She couldn't change her mind. And but her mom was praying, the whole time that something would stop her, that something would stop her. And we were there and we got her to come into our Clinic. We showed her her baby and it changes, you know, our teens are not so hardened.

1:18:20 They just been told certain things. You know, when they see at baby, they still have that tender place in their hearts. In fact, I still remember the day that I told my my kids and a couple of my nieces and nephews. What abortion was They're flabbergasted kids, it's unimaginable to them that people would do that. And we lose that, right? When we normalize that to children, but these Teen Moms there, some of the easiest to change their mind when they see their baby because they're still have some that softness in there. That's awesome. I remember my son came back to me. When my my granddaughter turned five. We were we were having a birthday party and him Him. And, and And his girlfriend got married and I remember it was just late and I was helping him pack up the car. And and his wife was in talking to my wife and he said, dad you remember when I told you I thought my life was over and I was like I do he's like excuse me. He said it was just beginning.

1:19:30 And I think sometimes we got to look at that. And you realize, you know, yeah, you've broken a big law here, right? Yeah, you've done some things. I would hope you wouldn't have. And that can't go away. But same time, I think we got to be ready to show him the way out. Repentance is. Yeah, help them choose life. Yeah. Yeah, and and it's, it's just one of those things, you know, we just, we keep moving forward. God is in charge of of loving, he loves your son, you know, you love his girlfriend, he loves your little granddaughter and and we are just there to show them. There might be a crisis, right?

1:20:13 This second, you might think your life is, is over, right? This is really common for the women, that that argh walking into the clinic, they have this immediate crisis right in front of their Her face and they can't see a way around it. And our job is to help them see the future in a different way to help them. See that we can help them, get through this crisis. Can you imagine thinking? Oh, I had that horrible year. I had the abortion, I thought I couldn't do it, but I really could have, you know, hindsight looking back this the next year was better, and I was doing better. And and, and to feel like I chose that life ending decision because I was in the short-term crisis situation. And you know, some of the things that are the hardest in our lives, make us who we are and so you know we can't say that everything that's hard is bad, you know, that that's there can be blessings, they can be blessing. So we want to be God's hands when women are in that situation.

1:21:13 I believe it was Thomas Paine who says heaven knows how to fix a price to her goods and I think That that is a very appropriate statement for this kind of thing. Yes it's hard. There's nothing easy about raising kids but it's more than worth it. I remember when this whole thing was going through what I was going through it with my son, I remember I just went and it struck me as odd because it came from Brigham Young not. Not necessarily the guy known for being necessarily overly soft, right? But I remember I read something from him out of the Journal of discourses.

1:21:54 And I can't remember what volume it was or whatever. But he said, you know, if our young people fall into a moment of indiscretion, there's a way that that can be fixed, right? And I thought and he talked about being tender and loving in those moments, too. Your kids back where they needed to be with their kids now and I thought, okay if that hard-ass can do it. So can I write that? Was it? That was, it was initially what I thought, but won't know. You're absolutely right. So let me ask you this. Yeah. What can my audience do to help you? As you look at your needs, what is he can do to help.

1:22:36 So volunteers are the lifeblood of what we do and I know all of your volunteer are all of your listeners aren't going to be near us most of what we do. Happens along the Wasatch Front, right? Utah County up through Ogden, the majority and statistically two-thirds of the women that get abortions in the state of Utah live. In Salt Lake, County proximity Is a Thing and so that's kind of the Hub of what we're doing when we're working with a mom. You know. It's helpful to be somewhat near her, right? The volunteers are our lifeblood. We always need more more volunteers always and so if you go to our website, pro-life Utah, dot-org, you can click on the, get involved Tab and it will let you do three things. It'll let you sign up for our text tool. Switch.

1:23:31 I already gave you the phone number for it, will let you sign up for our monthly newsletter where you will know when you can help us. So if you're someone that's going to maybe show up to our Memorial right, on a vent that we have, maybe come to the capital, every once in a while, that text alert will just tell you when and, and that newsletter will tell you what we're doing and when we're doing it and then the other thing you can do is sign up to volunteer with us. And asks, you a question Mine's kind of gets to know a little bit about your schedule and things. And then that goes to my volunteer coordinator will invite you to the next volunteer orientation and just get you started.

1:24:15 We have programs that have been started by our volunteers are post abortive support programs and had that in her heart and wanted to supply that we had a need for that in the state. And so we started that And so, you know, we never know who who we get and what they're going to how they're going to cause us to expand sometimes. Again, we have writing teams, we have the women's support team ways you can work with women. We have a baby Bank just coming and helping us sort items for our mom's a couple times. A year is something that people can do. We have a social media team, if you need to work from home, you can an help with our volunteer coordination at home. There's there's at home things, there's in person things, there's teams that work, specifically, with the women. If you have that in your heart, we just need people that can love these women where they're at, and then help them with that love, right?

1:25:21 So there's so many ways you can get involved are again our websites pro-life Utah dot or gets that get involved tab. I say sign up for all three. You know, it gives you the opportunities to kind of figure out maybe what is best for you and of course donations are always needed. We had started our mobile clinic 2021 may have 21, it's been running it was on and off for a little while it's hard to find pro-life stenographers and pristinely enough. So the first eight months we fluxed in service out of service because we had a Time with arson ographers.

1:26:02 But since then, all of 2022, it's been running. We were open three mornings a week. We're now expanded to, for almost half of the donations that we get to run those programs. And to give women those life, grant that life Grant, help comes from Individual donors in the state of Utah. So that's always something, you know, that you can do, we're going to put out our year-end report and basically what it will say is this is all the good we did. And please He's know that all of your personal donations went to our programs, not for back-end costs, right? Those are covered by a grant that we were able to get. And so you can know that your money is going specifically to the programs that support these mumps, fantastic.

1:26:50 So, I'm going to ask another question here. Okay, this one is always one ice. I personally struggle with because I never know how to answer it. Which is one you do you have to be in? This may sound silly on the surface and I can explain it later. Do you have to be a woman in order to volunteer with the organization? No, we don't. We have actually men on the sidewalk and some of them are able to talk to women almost easier than some of our women. You never know what personality is going to restore like resonate with the women. Walking.

1:27:30 In. So they're told by Planned Parenthood that that we are protesters. They're told not to talk to us. They're told not to take our gift bag, they're told to ignore us through. Been told to pretend they're on their phone while they walk in so that you know it's harder for us to talk to them and yet still were able to talk to some of them and and give them support and we have some men out there too. So on our women's support team that worked directly with the women during their pregnancy that is all Women based but we have men that do writing for us, we have men that are helping with legislative efforts there's a lot of places for men I think.

1:28:13 And I'll just speak for myself on this. But but in some of the other guys, I've talked to that are that are pro-life to the degree. I am we get this feeling like you don't get to have a dog in this fight, right? Yeah. That you your, your opinion is a far, far, third consideration. Yeah. And I don't know if that's by Design. Zayn. I don't know if that is just how the battle went down. I don't know what happened, but it never set, quite right with, right. You are men, are the other half of that, baby, right?

1:28:55 We've done such a disservice because let me give you a common example, right? You've got a boyfriend and girlfriend or a young woman and a young man who know each other they get in trouble a little bit. They have Get pregnant, right? We have taught this generation to tell the woman. Well, whatever you want to do, I'll let you do it, right? But what you really have is a woman that wants you to say, I'm here for you. I you know, I'm going to be here for your baby. I want your baby, she wants concrete. Concrete knowledge that he's going to be be there, but the pro-choice talking points have taught him.

1:29:41 That he's not allowed to say anything. He's not allowed to say, you know what, I really want our baby. I really want to be with you and I really want to be a good father to this baby. He's not allowed. We've had this situation in our Clinic multiple times where these women come in. And and, you know, the man is with them and he's like whatever you want to do, and you can just see her wanting to know that there's going to be that support. And so it's the biggest disservice we have. Done to both women and two men to tell men that they don't have a say, in what happens to their child. Yeah, yeah. And I was very fortunate, growing up, I didn't grow up Mormon at all.

1:30:27 But my old man. He was, he was old school. And I remember shortly before he passed, I had to have been 13 and I remember, he said, look, if you loved her enough to do that with her, you A better lover enough stick, buyer. And I, you know, I taught my son's the the same thing, right? And I think in some respects we kind of taught Especially this last generation, how to be weak a little too much. And I think I honestly think that, that sometimes the most dangerous man in our the week once, right.

1:31:08 It's okay to say, no, I we're going to get through this somehow together. We'll make this work, and I just think it's so important that men get involved in this. I think I think it was a clever tactic because it even made me feel like you do. I I have a dog in this fight. I mean it really did. It took me a while to work through that to be like well no no that's not really right. I do have a dog in this fight. It's a human rights issue and everybody should be involved filed in a human rights issue. Everybody, we are all human beings. We, there's little boys and little girls who are losing their life and we are all able to say this is wrong, and I'm going to be part of the solution.

1:31:51 Absolutely. Is there anything you want to cover that? We didn't Deanna. Oh, gosh. That's like the one question. I'm not ready for. I think. You know, don't be afraid to to talk about it. I think that's probably the biggest problem. Don't be afraid to get knowledgeable about it. Go to that abortion, procedures.com. It's the easiest way in 20 minutes. You can watch all those videos and you will have a much greater understanding of what we're looking at. There's even in a video with dr. Levatino who used to perform abortions and he talks about life of the mother, how he was in a high-risk clinic and he never.

1:32:31 Once had a mom, do an abortion for a high-risk pregnancy. So we have this understand like people think that we have to have an abortion. Well the truth is if I'm preeclamptic and I my blood pressures too high. What do they do? They induce me, they bring the baby early. They treat the baby like a human being and give it. Much care as they can, right? That's not an abortion when they don't, they don't send me for a three-day third-trimester abortion when I'm preeclamptic, right? So doctors treat women and their babies and sometimes we have to separate the mom and the baby and sometimes one of them may not survive, the baby might not survive, but if you lose the mom, you lose them both.

1:33:17 And so these doctors all across the state of Utah are dealing with these situations every day. There, R not abortions and so there's just knowledge that were missing as a society. And the more you learn, the more you'll be prepared. When people come at you with false information right there, misunderstanding of what it is, it is 100% okay, to be pro-life. There is a good answer for all of those things swirling out around there and so educating yourself makes you a much better advocate. For life because you can, you have an answer to those questions, right? So learn get involved, whatever you have the time for.

1:34:00 I've got some beautiful volunteers who have small children, and I just marvel at them, every day, what they're able to do. I was a mess when I had little kids, right? But they care and we find a place that they can serve in the space and the time that they have, right? Because we need you, we need you and we We don't just need you in our organization. We need you talking about it. Nobody wants to say the a word, you know, I was asked to speak in church and I this shows a little bit of my personality, but I was asked to speak about the service that I do. And I said, are you sure you want me to do that? And they said, oh, yeah, yeah.

1:34:43 And I purposely said the a word 10 times in my chair, girl, because we don't talk about it. We're afraid to talk about it. We're afraid to to mention it. We don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. You know what? When I, when I started doing this work and I started talking about it, people realize that I was a safe place and I was able to women. Came to me. Women that I didn't know they were post-abortive, they came to me because now I was a safe place when we don't talk about this with each other, these women walk around feeling, like we would look at them, the way they look at themselves.

1:35:25 And the truth is who you were when you were 18 and scared is not who you are when you're 45 today and that's the person I know and I have a lot of compassion for that scared, 18 year old person but that 45 year old woman still thinks that we We are going to look at her like that because we never talked about it. And so Beast, be that safe place. Be that person, who, who shows that compassion, be the person that that loves that Teen Mom, or that early 20s mom, in your congregation sit by her, right, go to her, baby, shower, whatever it is. Let's change this culture, her her choices and what she did that's between her and God, what's not between her God is what we do. How we treat her is, is our job, right? That's our job is to love her.

1:36:18 I think that's that's perfect because that's really the only if we're going to win this thing, we're going to win it with love. We're not going to win it with criticism. We're not going to win it with this idea of, you know. Yeah, you did a completely shameful thing and you should pay for that. The rest of your life, this has to be one with love. Of and if we're on the other side of what something would be considered, love, we don't stand much of a chance Deanna. We just don't so I loved what you said there. Yeah, I think I think we have got to to change how we respond to people. Do we believe in the atonement or do we not right? And if we do then that is that's that's there for them just as much as it is for us and an our job is not to punish our job is to Support and help and be God's hands. Yeah yeah.

1:37:14 And and I don't know anybody who would ever encourage somebody to go commit, a greater sin to try to cover up the Lesser one where I'm glad you don't. But there are, there are people. Yeah, there are. Yeah, well, Deanna, your Rockstar everything you guys do over there is amazing. I follow you close on Facebook. Thank you for my listeners. I'm going to say this. I usually throw something up on every episode where I say donations are welcome and they are but this time give it to her, give it give it to pro-life Utah. That's going to make a bigger difference if you want to. I'm just going to say, if you want to make sure that you were good with the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob choose life, Moses laid it out perfectly.

1:38:11 And, and in Exodus choose life, donate volunteer, get involved because History tells us scriptural history tells us. Yeah, how we treat the defenseless? Is is who we are and and judgments will follow. We need everyone's help to, to take back our, our godliness to take back, our culture to become who we, we should be as a society, we need everybody's help. Absolutely. Dina, would you mind coming back D? An excuse me? Would you mind coming back on when you get when stuff comes up? I'd love to keep chatting with you. Yeah, now that you're going on with the, with a crazy fundamentalist, once it's probably not quite so scary. Time around.

1:39:01 So we'll talk to it will talk to everyone about this, right? This is this is something that passes barriers, perfect, perfect, yeah. Keep us up-to-date. You need you let me know. I'll shout it from the rooftops. Perfect. Thank you, Dave, I appreciate you having me on. Thank you. Bye. All right.

1:39:42 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.