Episode #39 The Life Of Martin Harris W/Kent Pickering

0:05 Find out where everybody is figured out. I'm a huge nerd for history. I'm completely fascinated by the historical figures in the early days of the restoration on this episode. I have a chance to sit down and have a conversation with Kent. Pickering, Kent is an amateur historian on the life of Martin Harris now, Ken's interest in Martin Harris is a personal one. He's a direct descendant of Mark. So not only does his love of History come through on this episode, but there are times you can actually feel in our conversation. His love for Martin Come. Through our conversation ranges from the early, life of Martin Harris to his conversion to Mormonism. His monetary support, for the printing of the Book of Mormon to his eventual falling away from the restored, gospel to his timing Kirtland.

0:46 After the Saints left to his ultimate return to the Saints in Utah, stick around for a fascinating conversation on the life of Martin Harris. And that's next on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast, So, I just want to take a moment to thank you. The Listener, when I started this podcast I wasn't sure if anyone would really listen. Now to my surprise, this thing has taken on a life of its own and that's all due to you the listener, spending your time here with me, and it means a great deal to me now, as a husband and father, I'm keenly aware of how important time is. It feels like there's just never enough of it. So when you are spending your time here, listening to this podcast, I feel a responsibility to never waste your time in that Spirit as this podcast has grown.

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3:07 Your listing to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Welcome back to the Mormon Renegade podcast as always you can get ahold of me either by email at Mormon Renegade at gmail.com. You can also get a hold of me on Instagram and Twitter and getter under the handle. Mormon Renegade. Also we have a website up and that's Mormon Renegade.com, so go check that out. So today on the podcast, I am super excited. This is and I've looked forward to for a couple of months now and I have on Kent Pickering now.

3:51 Funny story. I actually message Kent thinking that Kent was his cousin and and he quickly said, no, you got the wrong guy, but I do happen to know a little, something about Martin Harris and me being just an absolute nerd for for history in general, but, especially early Mormon history. I, I jumped at the opportunity so I'm We're super excited for this episode, Kent. Thanks for being here, man. Yeah, Pharaoh Pickering, who he is my first cousin? That's who you were originally trying to contact. So he's the one that does all the studying about the Daniel codes. He's got a new book out of put a plug in for his new book. I've read it and it's fascinating. And so this is the first time I've actually met David in person, so, I really appreciate being here. Yeah.

4:45 Well, I'm happy to have you. Yeah. So so you're an actual descendant of Martin Harris, correct? Yes. It's quite very interesting how that works out so now we look at Martin Harris and first off I'll explain a little bit about myself is that I'm going to be 68 years old. I recently your little over a year ago contracted a Neuromuscular disease called myasthenia gravis. And I've almost died could have died several times in the last year else, kind of return. But I had a breathing crisis last June. And during that crisis, I had to be intubated and on a ventilator and I was comma toast for 36 hours. And it's my opinion that during that 36, Towers that I had a near-death experience but I have no memory of it. But since that time I gained a greater understanding of the gospel and what God wants me to do and how I can best serve him in my later years and so, and that's kind of where I'm at. And I do presentations where the Firm Foundation on the life of Martin Harris.

6:13 We Rod Meldrum and Lee Love Rod Meldrum, he's the only venue that will take old man off the street. That's not a professional researcher and as a historian and give presentations and it's a very small group of presenters that he trusts to be regular presenter. And I'm privileged to do that because I'm a descendant of Martin Harris. Now, Martin and Lucy Harris married and they were first cousins there. Ancestors came from Smithfield Rhode Island and it's kind of interesting. It's, I don't know that I'd look for these connections, but it just helps me.

6:54 Remember things, is that it Smithfield? You think of Smith family, feel being the world so he can say this myth world. So they came they were going to eventually be part of this myth world and then in his later years, Martin went to Smithfield Utah with his second wife, Caroline, live, next door. And so his second wife had a connection to a Smith. World. It's just interesting that Martin Harris was just for name to be the number one or supporter of the Smith family, at least the first one chronologically, so he married loose. See Harris, Martin was born in East and Saratoga New York. Loose view was actually born in Rhode Island not in Palmyra. I think there's a mistake in The her biography in the Joseph Smith papers and know how Myra.

7:50 And you know, Martin had his farm inherited land from his father. Nathan Harris is one of the founding members of Palmyra. And so when we think of Martin Harris, we think, well, he paid for the Green Book of Mormon. He gave Joseph Smith, a $50. He actually did more than that. Is that he employed the Smith. Family on his farm in his house and helped keep them afloat financially after they moved to Palmyra. So, the contributions of Martin Harris are just very very extensive and in my current research and dedication to trying to bring forth information on his life, I found this disconnect and so my purpose I don't know. You want to call it a mission, but my desire is to try and reconnect the membership of the church, with the sacrifice of Martin Harris, because he's one of the main reasons that we have a restoration.

8:56 Absolutely. So what? So before we go to that disconnect, I want to kind of recap here just a little bit about what, what we learned about Martin Harris in in, in our youth or in the LDS church, if you will, he's a guy who He seems to be a very successful farmer and a little bit of a businessman as well. He meets the Smith family. And as you said not only, does he help out with restoration things. He's employing the Smith boys all the time. Also he's, you know, letting the word out. Hey, there's the Smith boys that are great help their, their good labor, their their morale. And so he's also making sure they have worked from other folks.

9:44 Just not him. When Joseph begins his mission, it's it's Martin Harris. Who's kind of his right-hand, man, for a little bit of time there, he helps, you know, keep him afloat financially and even pays for the printing of the Book of Mormon, then there's that episode where Martin asked Joseph for the manuscript, the manuscript goes missing Martin and Joseph are kind of in some trouble with the Lord. Then after the, you know, Martin comes back and is repentant and Joseph welcomes him with open arms, eventually Martin does separate with the Saints for a time and then rejoins in Utah, that a good overall, you know, yes.

10:34 Real real brief overall history. So so we have that out of the way. Now, what did you find? You mentioned something here. A few minutes ago, I found really interesting. You said, you found a bit A disconnect with Martin Harris. What is that this can that disconnect is, you know, all of us are human and if we all make mistakes, you know I'm not going to list some of my bad mistakes here. That's for sure and you won't mention yours either but if we were judged by the worst thing we ever did, none of us had ever make it to back to our Heavenly Father, you know, I you we and that was that's one of the problems with Martin Harris. People think Martin Harris.

11:15 So he lost the 116 Pages, although he almost ruined the mission of Joseph Smith, he was called a wicked man in the Doctrine and Covenants by the Lord through Revelation and it's like people judge him for his apostasy and for his losing the manuscript and it's totally Unfair to Martin because Martin Harris. Holds a position in this, dispensation that people aren't even aware of, and I wasn't aware of until I actually found it and Martin Harris.

12:08 Okay, I'm going to say it. This is a podcast where I can be truthful. Yep, yep. And I don't have anybody looking over my shoulder. Nope. Martin Harris in my conviction gave the greatest temporal sacrifice for the Salvation of the Human family in the history of the world even more so than just even more. Well the one thing that's different between I mean Joseph and well maybe Joseph is a little bit harder, but Joseph didn't lose his family. Joseph didn't have to give up his family in order to make that sacrifice when Martin made the sacrifice to pay for the printing, The Book of Mormon, his family turned against him and he gets right, I kicked out of the house and actually move to Kirtland and it just ruined his relationship with all of his children. So We go and I was surprised at the amount of the disconnect. I I'm still disappointed.

13:16 They discontinued the Martin Harris. Pageant. I wish that decision would be reversed but I'm not in the decision-making process so you know I don't fixate on it. I wish the local warlord in Clarkston would take it up again, you know they've got to an Amphitheater and the Clarks And Ward used to put on the pageant before the church came in and helped him. But so that is a little bit of a problem in my estimation is the youth is not mean Talk enough about Martin Harrison what he did, potentially, because they're not having the passion and so something has to kind of fill in the Gap.

14:00 And I've tried to do that. So when I give presentations a firm foundation and I You know, I attended some rocks. Expose, nothing. I'm Martin Harris. And so, I will not talk to rod, and it's pretty tough, but with extra would have any time to talk to Rodney. Yeah, he's a businessman there. And I don't even think he even eats lunch or he grabs it on the go. But I said, I'll get something on Mark Harris. We're missing that I'm strictly send it, and that's what I started. And so, the first time I was there, I thought, you know, addressing the costume handed out flyers, I was like the missionary out in the field. The first day there, Practically everybody going to convert the world, getting ready to stand on a pedestal and preach to this great group of people. And I thought I'll be sweet mobbed at the table because and it didn't happen.

14:50 People, the majority of the people just walked by here, I right? No, no, I'm not an actor and I'm not anybody that's noted by my name. I ain't handling for Pickering and I actually put the name Harrison there when I get my biography of Kent Harris, Linford Pickering. And that's another part of the story of my family but they just didn't come. Yeah. So many people walk right now. They didn't have a lot of time and there's a lot of displays so it's a Stand. Well, you said you've been there? Yeah, it's hard to talk to somebody and, you know, there's some people that you're afraid you don't want to monopolize somebody's time.

15:31 So it was. All right, that's a pretty good conversations. But this disconnect is very real. In the fact that when I would do my presentations they wouldn't get as many views as like, one on Prophecy, you know, and that, and there's nothing wrong with watching views and proxy. Believe me. That's the number one thing now. Nowadays to, if you want to get views of your videos, have someone talk about prophecy and you'll get more views than any other topic. But there's didn't, I didn't get that many views and I'm the new kid on the Block and I thought the draw Martin Harris would be enough to bring people in and actually wasn't the. So I was quite surprised a little bit disappointed, you know, I think So there's two things you you mentioned earlier that, you know, it's a good thing.

16:21 We're not judged by our worst day, so to speak, right? And I think, I think we all have to, to understand that these men in history, they don't have the gift or they don't. Yeah, they don't have the gift of being able to look down the road and 200 years and see what's going on. They're living in the Here. And Now Now did Martin lose the manuscript. Yeah, he did. However That should give us hope because if Martin can screw up and come back. Well you and I can screw up and we can come back. Its the main reason I love Peter in the New Testament, right? What in one minute he's saying, I'll go to death with you Jesus. I will be right there.

17:10 I'm never leaving your side in the next minute. He's denying the Savior three times and yet the Savior still works with, right? Upon, you know, you'll be the rock upon which I build my church. So this idea that that we have to be perfect. There's no perfect people here. The Lord, relies on flawed individuals to perform his work. Now, obviously, there are sins which can put us at odds with that but there's repentance as well. And I think for for the the folks that we could relate to most out of scripture in history, I think the reason we tend to shy away from folks, like Martin Harris or cringe, a little bit when we hear Peter.

17:56 Say, you know, I'm going to go with you and then he denies the savior is because we see too much of ourselves in those same people. And so, I've always said, we need to be a little bit more charitable when we're judging history, right? Because we don't, we don't have the gift of perspective. Looking or they didn't have the gift of perspective, 200 years in the future, like, we do looking two hundred years in the past. The other thing, I'll say and I've noticed this is that we give a pass to Old Testament prophets, and characters more so than we do newer, dispensation prophets and characters.

18:37 And I think it's because they're so so new right there. They're a little more within arm's length of us. And so, I think, I think sometimes Martin Harris might get railroaded a little too hard because he is so close to us chronologically speaking. Those are just a few of my thoughts but you can't ever take away. The fact that Martin Harris was instrumental a key tool that the Lord used and bringing forth the restoration. Yes. And so, With their actual position of Martin Harris, is he is kind of like the family representative for the Harris family, okay?

19:29 Like we have families, you know, the family and, you know, you go to the proclamation on the family and that we're all familiar with is its patterns after award, okay? A bishop is the father of a ward, okay? The Bishop's, no more important than the members. He just, you know, somebody's got to be the one that presides and it's a one-person. Somebody's got to be the father, the family. You're the father of your family. I'm the father of my family and Martin's, father of the Harris family, and now, yes, he apostatized. Yes, he was gone for 36 years but there's One bit of evidence that happened that backs up.

20:22 What I just said and that is Martin's. Father was Nathan Harris has with local trout fisherman, there Palmyra. So his nickname was trout Harris but he never joined the church. Martin had two brothers preserved, an Emer and one sister and Naomi that joined the church and And Naomi an Emer came with Emma, was the father of Dennis and law? Harris who was one of the two young men who were in the meeting with the conspiracy to kill Joseph Smith and went and reported Joseph Smith and then had to keep their vow of silence for 20 years which Dennison lot of Harris do. And he wasn't until that 20 years was up that he revealed the contents of that meeting to Brigham Young. Okay.

21:17 So here, you've got a more Harris is faithful. And to Nabu, never left the church and Martin that left. But when Martin came West in 1870 and Martin went to the endowment house and received his Temple. Ordinances, his father came to him in a dream previously, and, and asked for his help to do his Temple work. So his, because his father recognized Martin as kind of, like the president of the Harris family based on his position of how he was called, to help children to Smith. So, that's one of Martin's positions that we don't think about. Now, there's another one, and this is probably the only podcast that I would talk about this honest. Now, this is very interesting.

22:13 We, let's go back to the dispensation. Ation of Abraham, we know we have the major dispensations and when Adam unique Noah, Abraham Moses Christ, Joseph Smith. I don't know if I got all seven in there are the major ones, but let's go to Abraham and we know his ass off for his sacrifice, the sacrifice of his son, Isaac. And then there was a ram in the thicket. Okay, the ram in the thicket. It is kind of like a position in these Majors dispensations, or at least some of them. So, we know we have the ram in the thicket that took the place of Isaac.

22:56 That was sacrificed on the altar. Nolan the ram was there alone, he didn't have a you by my side. Now, let's come down to the last. Dispensation. Okay, we've got Joseph Smith opening up the last. Dispensation We have, he's kind of like the Father, the last dispensation even though he, you know, had his father, Joseph Smith, Senior Joseph Smith, is he presides over the slices sensation, he's our direct link to Christ, so it's stated that those who go into Christ's Kingdom will have to have the approval of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Okay.

23:38 I don't have the quote that it can be found and said I've read it before. I'm sure you've read it and so, but okay. Here's the last dispensation. So do we have a ram in the thicket? No, because we're going to restore everything that was in the abrahamic. Dispensation here in the last sensation, along with everything else. So we need this position of the ram in the thicket, okay? Around in the thicket is a person who stands alone and makes a sacrifice for the Fit of the people. He's sacrifice analogous to the sacrifice of our Savior Jesus Christ. And when Martin Harris mortgages property to pay for the Book of Mormon, originally it wasn't an offering. They were going to sell the Book of Mormon and paying back before the note came to, but the books didn't sell the one thing that had the price too high.

24:38 We drop the price and still didn't sell it because there was a conspiracy in the town that no one would buy. But if Martin Harris would not have paid for the printing of the Book of Mormon, there was no backup plan, right? No, the Lord could erase somebody else up, but it would have taken time to do it and that extra time. What were they have done to the timeline of the last installation, the organization of the church, and 1830 on April. The sixth the conversion of people like Brigham, Young, and Heber C.

25:18 Kimball would have delayed out. And so, Martin Harris is in the position. Of the ramen a Thicket of the last. Dispensation now, that was my hate to say opinion, but conviction because, you know, I'm not necessarily a prophet or Revelator. I get inspiration like you do David but it's just what I felt impressed and so I've know, here's this revolutionary idea and nobody's ever said, Martin Harris is a ram in the thicket of the nicest sensation. I said that in one of my presentations And who am I to say this?

26:01 You know, I'm not a scholar historian. What Authority do I have? Say it, but I do have the right. Say it as his descendant. And one thing we that I have learned is that as descendants of our ancestors, we have the right to understand, those ancestors more than an outside historian, even well, I think that's part of the, the, the promise that's made, right of the hearts turning to the The hearts of the children training of the fathers and the hearts of the fathers trying to the children, I think that there is definitely a, a knowing that takes place in that in that time period. I won't get into the details.

26:45 But my family history is extremely convoluted. I'm the only Mormon of any stripe on either side and that family history is a bit convoluted. However, in doing genealogy work, right? And finding out some some of who my ancestors are, I remember there was one night where I just felt a natural affinity for people. I had never met. I didn't grow up with a rich tradition of family, you know, this is where your family comes from. This is what they do. So I felt like I was kind of handicapped in that and it's with a little bit of shame that I discounted. Just how powerful that promise of the hearts of the Others turning to the children and the children to the father's really is because I, you know, I thank God everyday that I had that experience where I could feel that love for people. I had never met, but knew they were closed. So when you say that that you have that authority to be able to speak on that as being a descendant of Martin Harris. I don't think that's that's too bold or out of line or anything else.

27:52 I think that that's probably one of those blessings of You know the hearts turning towards each other definitely is. And so we know that when we read the scriptures and particularly the ones in Malachi that they were important enough, that the angel Moroni I quoted them to Joseph Smith is there's so many applications of the same scripture and what you just said. And so and I'm not a proud person or a boastful person, but this is something that a blessing, any of us can obtain is I feel that I am the person or been given the blessing and it comes from God.

28:34 It's nothing that I took of myself is to understand Martin Harris and his sacrifice in his life, more than any other person alive on the Earth today because out of his descendants. I've studied his life more than any others as far as I know. Well and I just said it's my right as his descendant and the historians are a little bit limited, you know, the and it's understandable that they have boundaries that they're hesitant to cross, you know, because it's someone else's family, but me all kind of cross those lines and it's not necessarily bad but I like the one I just crossed saying.

29:18 Martin Harris is a ram in the thicket and you know, and if I make a mistake and I'm wrong, no, mark Just tap me on the behind and we'll laugh and go preach the gospel together, you know, after this life or something like that. But now getting back to the ram in the thicket and is there's actual physical evidence of this being true and I somehow, I can't even remember somebody clue me in that. The Martin Harris Kane, that one that's in his picture that they that we see on the The internet, there's not very many pictures of Martin Harris, but I looked at the head of the Canaan and looked like a head of a snake a little bit and I thought, well, it's a little bit like, you know, Aaron's Rod.

30:10 So, I was just curious and I some include me in that this cane was on display at Redmond's bookstore in Provo. I don't know if you've ever been there. Hmm. I've never wrecked matri personally, but I went there and I had the privilege of having a picture taken with the original Book of Mormon. And so I looked at the cane and looked after from the side and the cane from the side. And I don't know where this came from Martin, probably brought it from Kirtland. Be had someone carve it for him. It is the carving of a ram in the Rams Head. Hmm.

30:52 And it's an in my presentation, I have someone took a picture of for me from the side view and I've blown it up and you can see the Rams Head and there's actually the slit across the throat like doing the animal sacrifice like they used to do back in biblical times and so Martin had to have told someone to carve it that way someone Kirtland, there's no documentation of who did or where or when I saw it with my own eyes and when I went to Extended Harris, family reunions, As a caretaker of the Cain told me about the canes had being the Rams Head, and having the slit, I'd already seen it.

31:44 So we need to be thankful for Martin heresy. He gave us an example of what true sacrifice is, you know, he now, he did not have to, Sell all his property to pay for the printing, The Book of Mormon. But he did lose his house and 150 acres. I may be a little bit often remember my details, because I'm constantly like David on information overload because we're always studying and trying to figure out the truth and how to share it with people. Because, you know, if we both feel, we've been given talents To gain knowledge and we don't want to bury those talents with us. When we go to the Grave, we want to share it, right? That if God gives us understanding, we have an obligation to share it to strengthen the Saints. You know, teach one another, the doctrines of the kingdom, and the purposes of these discussions is to perfect, the Saints.

32:49 And so, Martin Harris did show us example, he did, Keep, I can't remember the number of Acres but he did keep a great deal of the acreage of his property about 150. I've lost it. You're good, you're good, I'm good. That's not important that that's how he supported himself in Kirtland, you know that he didn't go to Kirtland totally destitute but he was called by Joseph Smith. AB chosen to come to Kirtland, leave your family. Bring the copies of the book. Mormon, I want you to come help. Bring the any Saints in Palmyra and the codes. Real branch and come to curtain.

33:34 The Lord's called you at Kirtland. So not only did Martin pay for the fury of the Book of Mormon, but it says he's follow the Savior and sell all of our house and pick up your cross and follow me. And Martin Harris. Did that, there's an keeping some of the acreage and he sold out over time, he made trips to Palmyra. To sell that. And that's how he sustained himself in Kirtland, but we have no clue, myself included as a lot of us are here in our adequate homes and it's a real blessing. I've been in a lot of nice homes talking about Martin Harris and but, you know, he had to give that all up and, you know, for us not to respect Martin Harris. as you know, I'm not trying to put mine on pedestal and he wouldn't want me to but we need to Understand his sacrifice and and his examples.

34:35 So, and same thing with the Prophet Joseph Smith, we don't put Joseph on a pedestal. We don't worship Joseph but we can learn from his example of trying to serve the Savior as an imperfect human being and same thing with Martin. And so now there's another thing about Martin and he mentioned it, the Lost manuscript and one thing about the Lost manuscript is it's quite different than how its portrayed in some of the movies and Well, let me go back to something.

35:18 I don't I want to make sure you don't forget this. And let's go back to when Martin gave Joseph, the $50, this is before the time of the Lost manuscripts. Now a lot of times in cinema and I don't know why they do this. They show Martin given Joseph $50 and he hands him a 50 dollar. Bill now it's one of my disappointments with Cinema that they don't. A little bit better research because now that is misleading because yes he gave him $50 but he gave him fifty dollars in silver. Now when you portrayed Martin given Joseph paper money, that's misleading because one of the reasons Martin left the church and its was shown correctly in the movie. The Witnesses.

36:15 Has, which I had the privilege of meeting the main actors and getting to know them have my picture taken with them as well, at the premier. As Martin did not believe him pay for money. So he never joined the Kirtland banking Society. He believed in, he didn't believe in fiat currency, he believed in, you know, that the good good hard stuff going. Hot stuff goes silver standard. Yep. And So there was nothing wrong with that position. But so what we need to, remember that a lot of times are in cinema, it's a little even in church movies, it's a little bit.

37:01 I don't know, they take some license, right? They take some like some license and yeah, and the Riders don't always do enough research, but it doesn't take away from the whole world theme in the good parts of the movie. So I don't Get hung up on that. So we've happen. We know that Martin went to New York and I'll before Martin went to New York, he had a vision of the Savior tell him to go to New York and so you know, he took characters but there was actually more than one copy of characters. Now Joseph, copy some of the characters when he's studying the plates, after you move to Harmony and you know, he took the wagon and we know the story of the barrel of being a peasant getting pulled over my Seraphin worrying about whether they were going to take all look, dump the barrel out and see the plates and I don't know, they were probably wrapped but in the barrel but so and then Martin is.

38:02 So and Martin went to Harmony before we went to New York, he Joseph and Martin made us separate copy of characters and that's what Martin took to New York. There wasn't he didn't take the Only copy. Write the characters and then we know the story and how later Professor Anton denied it. And we know fulfill that prophecy and Isaiah and and copy that. We see today is not the copy that Martin took to New York and one thing that is interesting. And I don't know if you know, Hannah Syriac. Yeah, I know who she is.

38:52 Okay. You know what she is? He don't know, I don't know her, but I've since he's super good friend of mine, she was trying to start a podcast and She interviewed me and we're all, we interact quite a bit and she's now a religion writer for the Deseret News and I'm hoping to maybe go write some articles with her and use her position to maybe get some of this information out. Martin Harris, I always have too many projects. What I can keep up with, especially since I'm physical limited with my disease, but I made the statement. I just came to me out of the blue is, we're all Witnesses, The Book of Mormon and that we see the copy of the characters.

39:33 Now Joseph Smith, so it's not like he had a lot of education, learning how to ride or be an artist and for him to write characters. There's, there's no way he can write characters like that and so and we have the privilege of seeing the characters that were on the plates and the whole world can be a witness of that, you know, we don't see them plates, when you see the characters. Inscribed in the cold, like the eight Witnesses. Did in the three Witnesses and Mary Witten winter, but we still have a Witnesses. That's a testimony to Joseph is calling and just the fact that we can see little intricate characters, you know, that and so in most of New York and comes back and then Mark constant is ascribed.

40:33 Now, Martin was called a wicked man, but you got to realize Martin was getting a lot of pressure from Lucy and he wanted to convert his family, you know, he really believed in what he said if I show them to me. The script and they see this truth coming out, all haven't converted, and they'll I'll have a United family and then I can really help Joseph. So Martin had righteous Desires in asking to take the manuscript. Now, one of the problems was it's a manuscript wasn't copyrighted, so it's no copyright office in Harmony and it's hard to copyright. I don't even know if they could really get Get a full copyright on just something that's written, you know.

41:23 Yeah. I'd looks like scribbles wo that like a rough draft or something. Right. You know. It has to be something more definitive than that and so he that was one of the problems. They did listen to the Lord Martin. Didn't protect the manuscript. He took home. It was lost. Now, I am not in agreement. With read James. I don't agree with all the historians know, and in the Martin Harris passing. It's to show Lucy burning the pages. Now, I believe that is incorrect. Okay, I'll stand up for my triple great-grandmother Lucy Harris. Okay, now she went, it was hard for her to give up some of the things she gave up.

42:08 She's also a contributor to the publication of the Book of Mormon. One thing. She's the first person to give money. She gave an Evidence from her. I think her parents $28, she gave that to Joseph that he towards the translation, but she didn't have much. Say in what Martin was doing, you know, even though she was very active and worked around the house and on the farm. And I think they raise sheep. And that's another thing about the printing, The Book of Mormon that no one thinks about that. My friend, John Howe. You check if, you know, I don't know if you know who he is.

42:48 He curates Mormon documents and Mormon history that he made segment that we have to remember that old. He say, 1,000 sheep, we're needed to give their sheep skin for The Binding of the Book of Mormon. I don't know if that's quite the right number, but it's possible. Martin Harris gave some of his sheep, you know? So So, to inhabit a local, Tana hide, and use for the printing, The Book of Mormon. So, just wasn't the problem with buying the paper that and that was a very big. Amount of books for an initial printing of any book and of 5,000 copies, right? So I want to go back to something you said and you said that you don't believe that Lucy Harris. Burnt the manuscript.

43:47 What do you think happened to it then? Okay, that's interesting. That's why this is really a good podcast and I'm good friends with Jonathan Neville a former Jackal large, you know, Jonathan I do not. He lives in Oregon but he's Johnson. I have extreme interest in the loss manuscript but okay so it makes no sense for Lucy to burn no. Go through this little bit. Hopefully, a little bit and sequence here, because why would she have? Had it? It said that the wicked men took the manuscript and we're all learning it. Okay. So why would they give it back to the Lucy? You know, the original copy just Martin could find around the house?

44:30 I don't, you know, the husband knows where every secret nooks and crannies of his wife where she can hide the manuscript, and if Martin finds a manuscript, it blows up their whole plan to try and discredit Joseph Smith. So And they were going to publish it and Lucy wouldn't have been the one to negotiate, any kind of publishing agreement to probably solder manuscript. So what Jonathan Neville include me in it makes sense. And it also makes sense that the Lost manuscript was written on foolscap paper, which is 37 lines per page.

45:12 And so there wasn't a lot of room. To make a lot of alterations between lines and so Jonathan Devils came up with the thought or hypothesis, you know, being a Jag attorney. These he knows how to come up with a hypothesis and he presents a lot of evidence for the Heartland model. But he said there's a good chance that they made a separate copy for the alteration. Because they and it's just a theory, no one knows for sure. So the could actually be two copies but one thing to have to realize is that when they say they're going to alter it, they're not going to take all hundred sixteen pages and make alterations before they start publishing anything.

46:05 You know, that would part of the extreme length of time, it took Martin and Joseph three months, maybe it was. I think it was close to three months. To come up with 116 pages. So they're going to start altering probably right at the first of the book of Lehi and get a certain amount altered, and then start publishing it. Kind of how they started publishing parts of the Book of Mormon from first Nephi and Abner, Cole be, and the levels of paper. Then when countly Sentinel or the Palmyra something and Which paper EB grandma was published in it. Late 1829, when Abner Cole was training the first part, and I think those three are portions of Intel Joseph Smith. Confronted him with copyright violations and they almost came to blows and Abner back down, but so that's probably how they would have start publishing the Lost manuscripts. But I don't know.

47:12 That's all conjecture. So I believe that it's still out there. There possibly is a second copy that. I don't know if that second copy. Would still be around. Now, one of my future presentations and and I'm a lot like Don Bradley, you know, Donald Bradley? Yes. Have you met him? I have not. Okay, he's an independent researcher. He's a friend of mine. We interact every now. And again, and I called on Bradley the Captain Kirk of researchers. And on Bradley someone who wrote the book, The Lost manuscripts touring, the Nothing stories of the book of Lehi.

47:56 Can't remember the exact title be wrote that Only book available on the Las manuscript. And as far as I'm concerned, that's a topic that nobody else had ever touched because Dom did such a good job with it. And so but he went somewhere where nobody ever gone before. And that's what I like about. Don Bradley is he's very independent. He doesn't have somebody looking over his shoulder. And like if he was a BYU professor where it's got to be edited and maybe some things censored but he's very thorough in his conclusions. And so I some of follow his example, in trying to be an independent researcher and make conclusions, and so, that's kind of what I'm doing with thoughts on the Lost manuscripts. Oh, I would say the people alive today that have the most interest in the Lost manuscript, is it myself? Jonathan Neville.

49:06 Don Bradley writing the book, Susan Eastern, black, and Larry Porter, who wrote the current biography on Martin Harris that you can buy. It's a hard bound and my good friend, Sean Little Bear. He's from Oklahoma, and I forgot which tribe he's from. He'll forgive me for that. Next time, I seen that it's on. And I've talked about, hoping, that that will come forth, because he's interested in the further history of his people, that's in the book of Lehi. So, it's out there somewhere. I believed, I don't know where Lucy didn't burn it. I just think that's policy to believe that there's, but But what makes you think?

49:57 She wouldn't have burned it. I don't think she would have. It makes no sense that they would have given her the copy back to her, to be the caretaker of the copy because Martin could have found it and then that would have blown up their whole plan, right? And I think they were planning on continuing to alter it. And so they were going to start publishing the first parts of it because they didn't want to wait two years till they all do the whole thing. And plus it would have cost more to try to. Like something's 116 Pages. Now, this 116 pages is basically the close to the same length as what we have in our current Book of Mormon from first Nephi 20 verse 12.

50:43 And where's the Mormon? Okay, you can tell where the disconnect happened in the last pages. We know that we it's pretty well. Figured that we lost the first two chapters of mosiah. Where was I, the first went right to back to the line of his father's and there's no record of that and there's narratives a little bit disjointed. So but there's it's, there's a way to prove and I proved it when I presentations I have to go back and review my notes exactly how I did it. But it's basically the same amount of Is what we have in our current Book of Mormon for the same time period.

51:29 And so, if you're going to do that and publish, it will take in that conspiracy probably a year or two for the confining, published you to discredit Joseph Smith. We're going to want to discredit Joseph Smith as soon as they can. So I believe they're going to print few chapters at a time and then just work their way through as the altering the manuscript makes sense. Now, that's my theory. That's my Don Bradley approach. So so let me know. Make sure I got this correct. You think that Martin brings the manuscript home to show the Lucy Lucy, then passes it along to somebody else who's going to make revisions to it. Mmm. Okay. And so you don't think that though that manuscript ever got back to Lucy, no, there's no reason for it, is that it doesn't make any sense.

52:19 It's kind of like inferential evidence. It's just was if I was on a witness stand and of court trial saying, There's no motive for this conspiracy to give Lucy back the original manuscript, but obviously, Lucy has a got an axe to grind with Joseph Smith, right? Yeah, what what what was her big because I want to explore this a little bit because I feel like it helps personify who Martin Harris has if we know what he's up against it home, we can have a better idea of What sacrifices he made. So let's talk about Lucy for just a second.

53:01 What was her? Major hang-up with the Prophet Joseph Smith. What didn't she? Like, two things? That that's a good thing. I brought that up and I love the questions. You're asking, it's keeping me on my toes and make sure I can recall everything in to give the answer. Now, the first problem was Lucy, Came over without Martin to see the place. Now, Joseph, brought him home, he sent, I think it was Don, Carlos over the Martins house, have Martin come. Now, I've got the plates and Martin was finishing, Rock work on a fireplace and he said, he'd come in a couple days after he was done, but Lucy heard, and she came over and I think she brought, Lucy Junior and came and toxic Joseph Smith. And that's when she gave to us, that the $28. But when she came Came in, and she was going to give Joseph $28.

53:58 She said now, I'd like to see the plates. And Joseph said, no, I can't let you see the plates. And so, I think that was the first thing that Lucy had with Joseph Smith that she always felt slighted delighted that she didn't see the plates, and she stayed overnight because it was too late to drive back home. And that's not. I just when she had the dream of the Angel Moroni, I mean and showing her the plates and so Lucy actually saw the plates and she could describe him their size. He turned the Leafs over. It was just in a dream and not an actual personal visitation, but she actually was a witness and was able to describe the size and the Rings and everything. So huh.

54:49 That's a matter of record. Okay. That and also the Second thing is she wanted to kind of Be The Negotiator and Joseph said, well, I rather work with the man of the family. You know, I work with men in my negotiations. So she felt slighted as women and tell us which is following the practice of the time. Sure, man. To man, it was a little bit misogynistic. As we all know towards women, it's a little bit quite a bit more so than it is now. But And then here's everything she worked for Martin wants to sell the farm and it was causing problems.

55:33 And she wanted to go to New York, and Martin had to leave in the middle night to. So Lucy wouldn't go with him to New York and so that also caused a rift between her and Martin and the rift between her and shows us what he hears. I want to be with my husband, I worked and he's going to make this financial contribution. Ali. I earn part of it and I have no choice where it's going, you know? It's going through, what may not even be true, you know? Some Farm young Farm, boys, he was a adult by then. My dream, right? I find it interesting that she has a dream where she sees the angel Moroni and he he presents the plate.

56:18 So look, you wanted to see here is something. You know you gave him twenty eight dollars. Anyway, let's go. Towards your faith a little bit. So, so she has that experience. And yet still turns around and gets rid of the manuscript. Yes, so, so see it originally was a Believer and I portrayed in the Martin Harris. Pageant. And so, the only thing I didn't agree with in the Martin Harris, pageant was it showed Lucy burning the manuscript? Everything else was pretty much spot-on. So what was her? She has that experience where she has that that dream, a or / Vision. What turns her from that course because that's a pretty A powerful witness, what?

57:08 Turns her from that, too. Yeah, I'm going to take these 116 pages that Martin brought home and give them to people who want to destroy the mission of Joseph Smith. What was the incident that really angered her to the point where she would do that? I think Martin going to New York and leaving her behind was the straw that broke the camel's back is that when Martin came back she kicked I'm out of the bedroom, put putting in a separate bed in a different room. And so, basically, and then Martin went to Harmony and Lucy insisted on going and Lucy came and I think he was maybe even going to start to be described.

57:54 But Lucy went into Joseph's home and ransacked it trying to find the plates and Joseph went and buried him out in the woods. And I think there was a little bit of, I don't know if there was snow or they always spot where he moved the leaves or something or that he could tell that it look like, that's where he'd buried the plates in the ground and there was a black snake that came up and scared her. And she went back and then Martin had to take her home and then he went back to Harmony without her and so it's just this combination of things. Okay? That is that basically lets you most.

58:36 That she wasn't able to see the place. She just was so insistent on seeing the places. She donated that $28. And so, and again, the only reason I paint want to paint that picture is to show what Martin is facing at home. I can only imagine the UK. I can only imagine Martin going to Joseph Smith. Seeing what is happening, the way the Lord is moving and feeling so exuberant. And so, humbled to be a part of that. But then you got to go home. Yeah. And as you go home, you know you're going to get beat up by your significant other who's not United with you. In this process, that is a tremendous strain to be able to hold up under and those of us who have our Tempo goes experience.

59:33 Something similar, is he? You get you go through the endowment and you're in the celestial room, and it's just like you're in heaven, and but you have to go. Back down. Why do I have to go to work tomorrow and you know, how am I going to solve this work problem? And this problem at home. And so you know, for every High there's a low in the pendulum always swings, both directions and so this really is why Martin. He it was dividing his strength you know how could he help Joseph Smith if it's families divided and it was extremely difficult because divorce It didn't happen. It was frowned upon separation was frowned upon. It's not like that.

1:00:19 They lost their love for each other. They just weren't United. And so Lucy, just turned more against it. And I can't reflect something that said this already or not, but I'll say it again. Is that in one of my future presentations? I want to do police investigation. Criminal investigation of suspects in the theft of the Lost manuscripts and that's something, nobody's ever tackled before. And I don't even know what I'm up against. I have theories and couple ideas from Don Bradley and but nobody's gone into it extensively. And I have a finale to that presentation. That I'm not going to give my thunder. All right away.

1:01:09 We'll have to put off going to be. Interesting that the string challenge for me because I'm not a legal person. No I I just look up stuff on the internet and try to find the Latin phrases for or describe types of evidence. But that's the thing that I love about the Firm Foundation. What you're saying is history is I have the freedom to go into areas that no one's ever gone before and that's one of the area's going to go into and there's a few more and I I can't even get to Martin Harris and Kirtland presentation because I got like two or three more and Palmyra before I get to that point. But so, so let's so let's let's do this.

1:01:52 We have a really good idea of what Martin was doing for. Not just Joseph Smith and his family, but for the restoration, we know that he is struggling at home with his wife Lucy because they're not United on this. Martin is then called to Kirtland. Correct. Yes. So what's his role in Kirtland? What's he doing in? Kirtland concerning the restoration? Okay, so he leaves Lucy behind. Let me say, one last thing should out Lucy and we talk about Martin gives us hope well what about Lucy given us hope? And it says marks patriarchal blessing that he would eventually teach his wife who's given that blessing, I think in 1835 and Would be saved in the day of eternity.

1:02:41 So my first presentation was titled in defensively see Harris and where I Defender and that she can still obtain salvation, but now let's go to Martin and he goes to Kirtland. Now, there's a problem. This here's me trying to read between the lines of History, again, as we've got Martin, he's, he's the one that's made to offering. Through the restoration he's around with thick and he made the sacrifice. There's basically been. When I look at Martin sacrifice, I have a list in my head of four main benefactors of the last dispensation who have totally revolutionized The restoration and the first ones Martin Harris paying for the Book of Mormon. The second one is John Tanner, paying debts on the Kirtland Temple.

1:03:41 If you've you've seen that video of I can't remember what it's called but you know who John Tanner is. Yep. A third one is Jesse night. The son of Newell night, the son of Joseph Knight senior okay who was a one of the first ones to support the Prophet Joseph Smith and it was his wife And Joseph went to get the place from and the fourth one is a contemporary is Larry and Gail Miller in getting the financing of the Joseph Smith papers project. Okay? So but here's Martin making the sacrifice so he thinks that it's you getting some kind of standing in the church. Now Martin is different than the other two witnesses. Okay?

1:04:30 The Joseph is the head of the dispensation, right? First Apostle, okay, he's we know that. No argument no one will ever argue that okay now when the Lord I think it's section, 20 says search out the twelve he's talking to Joseph Oliver and David Whitmer but Martin Harris is left out. So Oliver is known as a second apostle. But David Whitmer has a position that's not talked about but it you've read between the lines of History, if he's going to help Oliver seek out the Twelve Apostles. David Whitmer has to be an apostle himself, okay? And if you change change, if you trace your priesthood lineage, right?

1:05:19 And all of us who do that, who do we go back through? You end up to like, maybe Brigham Young who received it from the three Witnesses. Now, The three Witnesses. Ordained. The 12 apostles, the Joseph probably was there to either under his direction or he participate in a circle. We don't know for sure, but you can't give an office in the priesthood that you don't already hold. Right? And so, like Martin couldn't give Joseph $50 if you didn't have $50 and silver sitting in his drawer. So, Martin in order to participate in ordaining, the Twelve Apostles has to be an apostle and self.

1:06:01 No, you can't. If you're in a ward, if you're dating someone a high priest, you can't have someone in the circle. It's just an elder know, they have, you have to have a group of high priests. And so it's the same thing and so, but and so Martin, this is me reading between the lines and I don't believe that he's an actual Apostle in 1830, if actually, he was ordained a high priest in June, Can 31 at a conference of the church. So, in a sense, Oliver cowdery, David Whitmer are ahead of him and that their Apostles before him.

1:06:42 Now, now, this is not anything to do with the Quorum of The Twelve of his presidency. The three Witnesses are a one-time Quorum of this, dispensation, Quorum of three apostles who bear testimony to the world of the truth of the Book of Mormon and all these Claims that they Mark tinnitus testimony just some of the original Quorum of the twelve and because he said he saw him with his spiritual eyes, that doesn't hold up, it's all hearsay evidence. The key to the testimony of the three Witnesses, is the statement. In the Book of Mormon. It's an affidavit. All right, and if you have a court case, an affidavit will always Trump hearsay evidence, right? And so the only way, the three Witnesses could have denied, their testimony would have been And to insist that their names be taken off that statement in The Book of Mormons that are being passed out.

1:07:37 But the first edition lasted I think seven years and you know it's kind of like feathers you have a bag of feathers you throw them in the wind, I'll go pick up all the feathers you can't do it so there's no way to take that testimony out of printed books that are Just gather given out all over, you know sure sure you know like missionaries give out Book of Mormons and so that that was their number one main mission and that's why I won't still defend David. Whitmer, is it in his number-one Mission, he will be given credit for not denying his testimony and the same with Oliver cowdery and Martin Harris but so you have Joseph first Apostle, Alder second David, Whitmer surd, okay, and Martin Harris is a fourth Apostle.

1:08:37 So when they say David Wittenberg possibly could have been president of the church, there's a little bit of possible truth to that, in my opinion, because he was the third Apostle and, you know, I think apostatize after Oliver cowdery and that so And we do know he was president of the church in Missouri, so I don't know if he'd ever would become president of the whole church. After Joseph's death, we will never know that because right only apostatized and never came back. So that's one of the questions of History will never know the answer to so but Martin just is probably feeling slighted because you know, I'm just the high priests and they put me on the high counsel and here's all over. Do not have all these experiences with Joseph and David Whitmer, these whippersnappers and They didn't give up their family and their these young guys and so I don't know if there was jealousy there. Possibly there was some but but what Martin's probably didn't fully realize is I look at him as kind of the traveling witness that he actually went on missions and he went to Michigan went to Pennsylvania on missions and to Bear testimony of the Book of Mormon.

1:09:56 And then there is one thing that's interesting about Martin Harris and I don't, this is what I believe is the truth, but I can't prove it is and I have all sorts of unique things happen to me in my search on his journey. I thought it was just going to be like, maybe doing a research paper, three or four presentations. I'd be done, and I'd be backing. Rod's audience listening to rotten Lane and John's Neville and had a starter give presentations and hasn't been like that. And so one experience that I had Is I went to a Fireside with someone had original Book of Mormon, and I won't say who the gentleman is, I tried to contact him good. I went up and looked at it and he turned the cover and I looked at the name. boy I picked up on the name and to the like nobody else would have picked up on the name and I believe that original Book of Mormon was the Book of Mormon that we came into the possession or was given to Martin Harris is Aunt because of the name because the last name was Latham and that's the same name as Martin's mother, last

1:11:27 name is Martin's mother. Hmm and so and it came down and you know the story how I got found and I don't feel that I have the Liberty to related but I will the gentleman I never was able to make contact with him. I feel bad but there's a good chance that I saw. The original Book of Mormon that was given to Martin xana-don't with Martin gave it personally or if he left copies with his mom dad and they gave it to her. When they came to visit, I don't know. But it was another interesting thing so but like I say, Martin said traveling witness, the three Witnesses did go with Joseph Smith de Michigan, when they converted Edward Stevenson, Martin did go to now Edward, that's important because every Stevenson's is the one that brought Martin Harris to Utah, but Martin did go to Independence.

1:12:24 When chosen at first, went to Independence and where the Lord promised him, I'll review go to Missouri of revealed to you where the temple out is and the center sake of Zion. And so Martin went with Joseph Smith and there was six Brethren Martin Harris, six or seven? I can't remember Joseph. Martin Joseph Cove? Was it Sidney Gilbert? I can't remember all six of them. I'd have to go back to church history, but Martin Harris was there when Joseph dedicated the temple, lot, and and Martin Harris, actually was the first person to put forth money to start purchasing land for the City of Independence for the center State goes on. And so Martin is a lot.

1:13:14 The he you think he's the last amongst the the witnesses because he's just a high priest. I don't know. Any Has ordained an apostle but you know, he's just on High Council or they were a present of the church in Missouri. All the Calgary's show us his right-hand man and here's weren't just on I counsel, you know, and don't even have a wife and God, you know, and so I don't know if he felt that way, but it's human that he did and he had to fight that, I'm sure. So but he just had so many things. This first, he was the first person probably to hear about the first Vision outside of Smith family.

1:13:58 First person to hear about the gold plates. First person to put forth money to buy the Cs Ian on the one. In the first group to know where the city of Zion, where the temple lot was he was in. The United firm, which would the lid included, the literary, firm of the church to publish literature for the church, you know, like pamphlets and periodicals, right? They weren't to the point where they need to be printed book, more until 1837. And so Martin really was more of didn't realize what he had and it's my opinion and and he worry too much about what Didn't have it. And that's a human nature.

1:14:48 I mean, I'm the same way. You know, here I am with a disease that has cut down my mobility and ability to get out and I think, wow, I can't do it. I used to do but also have more time to study and research and interact with people. And with my disease I interact with people from all over the world. That's one thing I love about social media and you probably have listeners this podcast and all over the world. The world is its. Everything's changed of how we can get the message out of the gospel and So, you know, this is kind of Martin and Kirtland and he kind of plays a little kid and he doesn't ever divorce Lucy. He goes back to Palmyra about five times, and one of the things that's just recently come out and it's in the biography by Susan Eastern, Bloc is when Martin was a member of science camp.

1:15:48 And, you know, he was playing with the black snake and got bit and shows how to come and reprimand him and That story and but there's a quote from George Albert Smith, the prophets cousin that on science camp. Martin Harris, took his son, George so George was never baptized. Now, I am a descendant of George and I got to remember, I've got it, still tell that part of the story. So, Mark did have his son, go with him on signs Kim, but Many product took him back to Palmyra, and so we come down through Kirtland now, now is probably a good time to maybe go into how I descend from Martin Harrison and we'll pick up the story, except the story little bit later because I don't want to miss it. It's shit, it's too important.

1:16:43 It's my uniqueness. Now, one of the examples of the disconnect, That I discovered is I have a friend down the street. Who is a descendant of Edward Stephenson Edwin Stevenson was partially converted, by the testimony Martin Harris, because he was a young boy in Michigan and when Joseph in the three Witnesses went and preached the gospel, Michigan, you probably read about Ryan if you have a mission. So when Edward Stevenson, as Member of the presidency of the seventy, in the most traveled missionary of the church distance-wise particularly, because the railroad he was able to travel more. It's the one who arranged to bring Martin Harris to Utah. So, okay, so we go back to Martin and Lucy Harris. Okay, Martin, Lucy Harris.

1:17:50 They there's new Jenny ology out that they thought they had a son Henry but it's doesn't appear to be correct. Even though it's on, I think Lucy's headstone so they have a son George and George comes to Kirtland spends time with his father and then goes his father takes him back. I can trim holes, it would have been then I think a teenager. Okay, so Mark goes back to Palmyra about five times and It's really interesting. You can see some of the land transactions and you can actually see the recording and a logbook of the transaction of the transfer of the property that Thomas Lakey or l, ik e. Why?

1:18:36 And how the woman mrs. Granger came from England with 3000 and gold coins and that's a miracle in and of itself. How it was. He was able to Pay off the mortgage, and it's a lot of legal issues involved. I won't go into that, and I don't remember all the details, but so George stays in curtain and not currently, well, he does for a while and it goes back to Mars. Davis his mother and Lucy dies and early in 1836. And then Martin remarries the daughter of John Young, who is the oldest brother of President Brigham, Young Young family and there's a lot of age difference, you know, it's, you know, your kind of something you hardly even find in Hollywood.

1:19:33 There's I think 32 or 33 years age difference. Carol, how 20 in Martin's, 53? And so Martin's stays in curtain down, you know, when the saints go to Missouri, Martin ever, Went to Missouri when Joseph Smith left, he stayed in Kirtland. He raised his family and Kirkman. So, Martin and Caroline have a sink who six or seven children. Carol 9 comes West Saint. From from Martin, let me be a little more descriptive here. So, okay, we're going past, we're still in Kirtland, but this is after most of the Nights of left and Joseph Smith has left. And so I know that Martin was there at the Kirtland Temple dedication.

1:20:30 And one thing about Martin Harris he didn't keep a diary so we don't know a lot of his history other than from outside sources. He had the following out which other Smith and the Kirtland banking crisis. After the temple dedication, he stated Kirtland. He's quite wish. She washe. He goes, you know, every wind of Doctrine to and fro. He's always think. See this person should be President James train. They witmer. William Smith. I don't even like to dwell on that. That's really not the purpose of this podcast, over dwell on the negative, other than just a little bit to refer to. So we can learn from it.

1:21:16 But and then in 1841 there's this rumor At Martin Harris, got shot by some Mormons that came and hunted him down from Missouri and shot dead shot through the head. And that was totally untrue, was printing some of the newspapers but in 1842 its mission is to go back to Kirtland. And Martin's repentant and he's actually re baptized into the church. So That's documented in. If anyone really wants to know about Martin Harris. Get the look by Susan decent blocking Larry Porter. It's very thorough and so he's being baptized into the church.

1:22:00 So now, the interesting thing about Kirtland is not all the saints left, Kirtland. I mean, faithful Saints. They were some other faithful Saints. It stayed in Kirtland. They actually had a branch of the church in Corinth. And so, Martin Harris, he's kind of the appointed caretaker of the Kirtland Temple. He takes people on tours through the temple. There's even a spot and one of the wood pillars that they spotted the temple that they don't allow tourists to go through where the initials mhr carved in the wood filler.

1:22:40 I've got a picture of it and we Phil, that was probably Martin Harris did them and so so they're in Kirtland So he never went to Nauvoo the. Oh, Lucy's died. He's remarried. George is in stays in Palmyra, and then. So, and the Martin has friends there in Kirtland, that are faithful. And that the families are like the Dixons, the Simons, and the Whiteman's. And they finally get the urge to come West or the desire to come West and join the Saints because it was after 1847. And so these families or well Simon's, Christopher flintoff, Dixon Charles, Whiteman, they come West and No, mid-1850s 1954.

1:23:51 I like I said, I don't have all my details, know you're good, but it's I'm close. I'm a thin five years but they come West and they settle in Payson. Utah, the town where I live now this is where there's some more interesting history here and when I talk about how I'm descended from Martin Harris and so Now, we come to 1856. Now in 1856, Caroline is pregnant with their last child. It turns out to be, I too met Harris. Okay, now Martin's in his 70s I think Lao SI 1856, he 72 70.

1:24:42 Barely turning 73 and his wife 40. So, Now, when she's Caroline's pregnant, she decides enough is enough. No we're friends had left, its good likely. Good friends with the white ones Dixon's in the Simon's, she wants to join her family and I think she kind of stood up to Martin and said I'm going west. You you can either come or I'll go alone. And so it was originally thought that Martin just said goodbye and I thought well that's pretty hard. Listen, Martin Harris. So what kind of man, would send a pregnant wife to go from Kirtland?

1:25:25 To Iowa. Ottawa is wasn't cane field in Pottawattamie County, Iowa, with only his oldest son. Martin Harris jr. Who would have been, who probably maybe 18 close to 18 years old to drive the wagon. Now, that that's a very improper. Thought or portrayal of Martin Harris that, you know, he's pretty hard to say I don't and but that was thought for years and years and years. Until indexing came out, index records. And So it's nice and black or found the record of Iowa State census taken, I think in 1856 and it shows Martin Harris being in Iowa in 1856.

1:26:16 Mmm, so Martin Harris actually went and took Caroline too. Iowa. And tiered, maybe he's planning on coming West with her, I don't know, but when he was there, they stayed and had to get ready, you know, prepare for the trip and I'll have them if they had enough supplies that Martin still had business in Kirtland. So, he went back to Kirtland and made a land transaction. This is all documented by Susan Eastern Block in the biography and he never returned to Iowa, so Caroline Young Harris and her family.

1:26:59 She's got a new baby and she wouldn't have wanted to travel right away with the new baby born in May of 1856 item. May I to make really plays a big part in my hair is, it's coming up here in the story and I've never told the story publicly, until right now. So that's why I'm excited about number of listeners that you've got. So okay, so she comes, I think 1959 or 1860 the item, 8 3 or 4 years old feel strong enough to make the trip and see figures Mark. She's done with Martin, he doesn't come back in the three-year period.

1:27:46 The law of the Prairie is kind of you know if you're separated for three years it's a divorce divorce because it's not Like you can travel back and forth to sign the papers and hop on a plane and go grab a five or six hundred miles and get the paperwork signed and then fly back at the house, the Prairie, because of the length of time for travel was pretty well, understood. And so Caroline basically considered herself divorce from Martin and she meets a gentleman. John Kat Lee Davis who has first wife died and they become acquaintance. And And they come across, I believe they were in the same.

1:28:30 Wagon Train was Horton, Haiti hates Wagon, Train. I can't remember. But the come across about the same time and they get to Salt Lake Valley in 1860, okay? And it's John Kat. Lee Davis and Caroline decide to get married, okay, allow the Prairie no Martin. He's too stubborn and I waited Caroline figure she waited years for Martin to soften up and come and join the Saints and he never did. And part of the problem. The Martin Harris had with Brigham Young. And not Martin, not wanting to come to Utah. Was Martin was still of the belief that the Saints should Gather in Missouri and that not necessarily out west.

1:29:18 So, because Martin had, no, he had a financial interest in that property, he donated property. Right there was ER e and he felt like he had an inheritance there so he may have had other disagreements with Brigham Young. I don't know for sure. But so we get back to 1860 John cantlie Davis. And Caroline. Young get married and Martin's daughter, Julia and John cantlie Davis's, son, Walter also, get married. I think they get married at the same time in the endowment house. They're actually sealed marriages. They were fully converted.

1:29:58 Sure. And so, but what's interesting is after they get married, Caroline and John cantlie Davis moved to hasten where I live and they moved to Payson most likely because that's where Caroline's friends were of the, the Simon's, the Dixons and the Whiteman's who came across about the same time all ended up settling in Payson And so it makes sense. That that's why Caroline went there and I think in 1860 census, she only live three or four houses away from Orwell. Simons, it was one of the founders of patient So they live in Payson, they blend the two families, Walter and Julia. I think say, in Salt Lake, after they get married, they don't move to Payson.

1:30:54 But item, may actually, she's young and she ends up spending some of her younger years with her older sister and Walter away. From whom, I think she's in the 1860. Census is not being a patient. I'd have to go back and finally review my details, I get so many details going through my head. Okay, so live in Payson, Christopher flintoff, Dixon is one of their good friends, right? He's also one of the original settlers of Payson, he built a home, I think it's in 263.

1:31:39 And our home was just down the street from me. And now it's interesting when I moved to pacing, I wanted to be close enough to the city but to a rural atmosphere and homes rule cheaper. I moved to pacing about 15 years ago and I was going to buy another home in Payson and all ready to go by went and looked at it. And there was a neighbor parked in our driveway. And I said, I don't want to fight with the neighbor part using our that driveway, this house, we're going to buy and have disagreements with the neighbors. So let's go find another house and we ended up buying another house and I'm still in and write down. The street is this house built in 1862 by Christopher flintoff Dixon and I see actually has a plaque on it now that house.

1:32:27 That's interesting is the Dixon family and the Stevenson family Edward steamed, has he brought Mark right Wes, we'll get to that a little bit later and up intermarry. And that house owned by Christopher originally built by Christopher went off Dixon and home though. Christopher flintoff Dixon is still standing. It's just down the street from me so it now be 160 years old and now we're this is interesting. Is that the birth of my desired to give presentations as a far as actually doing it we all have ideas we never get to.

1:33:07 It's like I don't know how long you were thinking of doing a podcast where you find whatever it takes. Yeah, you jumped into the water and jump in the deep end. I got a sink or swim. That's what you're doing now. You didn't just stick your toe in the water inside. You didn't want to do it is. So I gave a family home evening, Fireside on Martin Harris in the Christopher flintoff, Dixon home and it's possible. I don't know, for sure know what you know until I die and ask Grandma Caroline that Caroline. It could have been in the house that my first Martin Harris presentation was in the home. That my great-great-grandmother Caroline Young Harris was in. Well, I must have been experiencing so and so then we can come to 1867 and her Caroline's husband, John, cantlie Davis has some kind of falling out with Brigham Young over land issue and he gets disenchanted with the church and Caroline and John Kelly Davis actually have a son that lives free days.

1:34:13 It's it was buried in the old patient Cemetery, not sure the location but so Caroline sided with her father and her uncle Brigham and that kind of split up the marriage and I don't know if they were still live together. We know that there was a time that they move from paste. And to Salt Lake, okay? But then something happened in 1869 that complicated things and now we're getting to something that's very interesting that people don't know about Martin Harris, what he faced when he first came to Utah.

1:34:55 So in 1869 Martin's daughter Julia who's married to John cantlie Davis is son Walter dies soon after childbirth and she has two younger children. And so Walter works for the telegraph, you know. So he has to leave town quite a bit, you know, he worked at the telegraph station. It's thought that maybe he's the one who sent the telegraph, when at the driving of the golden spike in 1869, but he doesn't have a wife to take care of these two young children. And so, Caroline, Young gets back with her husband, John cantlie. Dave, Vez to help take care of the children, okay? And in 1870, census, they're back together, okay? They can 70 cents, aside some time, the Summers when they took it.

1:35:51 So and 1870 is when Martin Harris, comes West with Edward Stevenson. Now one of the main things that help Martin Harris coming West was Railroad because had he had to come by wagon who very likely wouldn't have come? Because he's like 87. 88 years old, little been too hard on him, so, he comes Wes. He meets the Saints in Iowa. He's totally a pauper by the in-house. Absolutely nothing that the shirt on his back and the Saints. In Iowa, buying a new suit of clothes, which is an interesting fulfillment of the scripture, in ecclesiastical Ecclesiastes of cashing, your bread upon In the water. And after many days, it will return to you. I'm paraphrasing.

1:36:40 Is it when he gave Joseph, the $50 he bought Joseph a new suit and then you know 1827 43 years later close to that the Saints, buy him a new suit because he can't afford one, you know, he's given everything for the gospels sake and he went his later years, she wasn't able to keep sustain yourself his Papa, he was kind of almost putting a poorhouse are in Kirtland, so And so he and he Bears testimony and he comes on to and one of the hotels and he comes West and he comes to Utah and he wants to see children Caroline and so he goes and he's Caroline.

1:37:29 But there's this problem Caroline's there with John cantlie Davis and they probably weren't divorced. So we have a situation of polyandry. In the early days of the church and it involves Martin Harris. So here, we've got Caroline Young. This meeting that appears to have taken place, and she's got two husbands in the room, not divorced from either one of them. Other, than, from Martin, it was a law of the Prairie divorce, but she never expected to see him again. And so you can imagine how she felt, you know, what's the Saints going to think? What do I do? Two husbands, and I'm really kind of a strange. Range from both of them even though I'm still in the same house, it's John Kat Lee Davis and Caroline Young eventually moved to Smithville to live with her son Martin Harris, jr. Martin Harris moved to and lifted a house next to her. I think with a little filter it was Caroline Young sister so but Never reconciled and she never reconciled with John Kat Lee Davis.

1:38:45 And so I too may go Swift and no item a gets married. Very young to someone named William Harrison Penrod. I think it was and she has several children and she gets divorce. So we have item a living there in. I'm not sure where she lives not really North of salt like somewhere. And then we have George back in Palmyra. And in 1960, before, Martin came West, he's he had gone to Kirtland and he is in 1860 census in the same house as his father, Martin George gets married to a woman named Mary Jane Thompson. As far as far as I know, this is Georges first marriage. They have two children.

1:39:41 And then George Martin Lucy son gets divorce from his wife, has his first son Alma Martin and Henry George enlist in the Union Army in the Civil War and gets killed in Virginia and some kind of battle but I can't remember which city. It's a matter of record because there's a sure have pensions it lists the location and the date and everything. So we have almond Martin Harris, and Henry Harris that stay with their mother George goes off. The Army gets killed, so Mary, Jane Thompson, Harris and her parents are there, and in, Kirtland, and buried in the curtain.

1:40:31 Cemetery. So when I visit the curtain Cemetery in a church history to her, I had Truck Line ancestors in the one of the curtains cemeteries and I didn't even know it. You know that stone centers Monuments are other still sounding and so Mary Jane Thompson Harris gets remarried. And so Alonso Wilson I think was the name of the her husband and so he raises her two sons and Al Martin Harris is not there in the 1880 census. I don't so he had already left home when nobody Exactly when did other than he eventually, made his way west as sometime around like mine's kind of like the late 8th mid-1880s or something like that. And now he's not a believer in the gospel, he's probably been taught a little bit of the gospel for his mother. He's got a first name after somebody in the Book of Mormon. So but But as far as we know, he never was baptized with other than posthumously, but he comes out and he ends up somewhere in Idaho and item.

1:41:53 A is do Vorst with 067 children, and I can't remember for sure. And then Alma Martin. And I too may decide to get married and they're closely related. So Jenna logically speaking, I don't know if this has ever happened before but I too May married her. Half-brother once removed, I don't even know how to describe it or step. Brother, once removed, half brother wants to remove died. I've had discussions with my sister who's an indexing director and we've never actually figured out how to Scribe it.

1:42:35 And so that's the joke in the family is that's where I get my craziness from now. Now, my friend down the street, that's a descendant of Edward Stevenson, he told me, he didn't know, Martin Harris had any descendants in the church. So there's that, we've got another disconnect and, and if you, when used to go to the Martin Harris, pageant they would ask Will descendants, Martin hair, stand up and a bunch of people would stand up. So, Martin has a hundreds. Of descendants in the church that comes through Caroline. Okay. You know, so they had seven children, I think three or four lived in maturity.

1:43:19 And so now I'm a Martin and I to make get married, they have two children, you know. So I don't know if it was any genetic problem. I don't know. There's anything that's shown up but that was Kind of awkward. And it's fun to look at it on a genealogical sheet. Now just one generation removed and it goes back to the same point of Martin Harris but through different wives, because Martin had to wise and so item, a has a son and I too May has a daughter. Now, I too may remember, is a daughter of Martin Harris, right?

1:44:02 Okay. And Caroline Young and so I that I too may have that son and that son is my grandfather Linford and he was raised by his parents but I to make had some kind of disease and she had to have. She was allergic to was this Quincy a disease or the treatment? I can't remember. I can't remember. Either, but some kind of allergic reaction and she lost her mental capacities, and then her Alma, Martin had a mental breakdown in the state of Idaho came in, broke up, the family and my grandfather and his sister had to go to a boarding school and then they were adopted out to a link for family who has descended from John Linford who died, at six crossing the day of the rescue, and it's in the film 17 Miracles. So That's how close I am to Martin Harris. And I knew my grandfather Linford until I was 10 years old.

1:45:11 When he died, he just died. I think it's 69 is his mother was Martin Harris, his youngest daughter. So so I was born in 1954 and Martin. Harris was born in 1783 and there's five generations. Going through Caroline Young. So it's about 40 years or over 40 years per generation. Just seems like the, you know, everybody's have a child in the late years and that and it just not continuing down, it's really interesting.

1:45:53 And so that's how I related to Caroline Young and then I go back through and Martin Harris Through Blood. Relationship to Lucy Harris but it's one more generation in there. It's so Lucy. Harris is my great-great-great-grandmother, Caroline, Young Harris. Now, it's Lucy Harris. Harris, because they were cousins. So sure Harris was her, maiden name, her knee, and he and Caroline. Young is my great-great-grandmother. So And so my grandfather eventually, one of his adopted out, he was baptized into the church. But it's only through the descendants of of my grandfather and his sister.

1:46:49 Urban - I think her name was that those descendants are the only ones that come from Lucy Harris. Okay, but they're the church member is oh no, maybe there's A hundred of us by now, I don't know for sure, but 99.99% of the church has no clue. That Lucy Harris has descendants that are members of the church that it, you know, what kind of took three or four generations for maybe that curse to be removed. And one says, you curse continues to the third and fourth generation be right, and then the Lord starts to reclaim the fruit.

1:47:31 I do it. I'm a very big on reclaiming. These lost branches and the conversation we had before this podcast. That's we're really aligned with that. One of the things we want to do now is start reclaiming these lost branches. You know, it says, we got to realize that when it says in the book of Lehi and his dream that these people wanted often, we're lost What A Savior said. None of those that the father has given me. She'll be lost. So when what you do, when someone's lost what a search and rescue, do they get a search party and they go find it whether the person's dead or alive and they find out for sure and try to save a life. And so that's what kind of where we come to is that the Lucy Harris, Branch has now come back into the mother tree. And I was going to give a presentation on this in last Expo, but my health preventing me I'm going to give it next spring on.

1:48:34 Jacob, chapter 5, and how we need to get more of these branches through extensive Side, branch genealogy, more than just our four generations with sure what with indexing. And everything we find on the internet that we're just in a whole new day and age. It's not only just in knowledge, it's in genealogy and there's so much we can do. So we so that's kind of my story of how I'm descended from Martin Harris twice. So I guess it's a double witness. So it's really a different story and I guess it's now out in public.

1:49:18 And if you get 12 to 15 thousand listeners, about 15,000 people, not know much story. It's kind of interesting to be doing a podcast with just two people and me to realize I'm actually speaking. Into 12 to 15,000 contentiously. I don't know how many. Oh yeah you'll get. So go ahead. All that use. I need to rest my voice. No you're good so just to make sure I'm understanding correct. You are related to Martin Harris by Caroline Young. Yes, okay. All right. That that kind of puts that into perspective because that's a pretty straight line, right? I mean, yeah, you're talking going right back to Caroline Young who was married to Martin Harris?

1:50:02 That is that is one of those things that I wish I had, right? Because my family is so scattered. No, no, Mormon influence. I have none of that. I'm like turned up under a rock and here I am kind of kind of genealogy stuff, right? And to hear that kind of story that it go that that it's not that far removed know. There was there's a comedian slash Castor, I listen to and he was talking about if you put it in terms of people, you know, personal lives to about 100. Well, if you go look back towards the revolutionary period, that's like three people ago, right? In your case, it's like two people ago, right? You were you are that directly descended from somebody. That was instrumental in the coming forth not only of the Book of Mormon but the Right, it's not without the support of Martin Harris.

1:51:09 That Joseph Smith can get his work done. Mmm. So, I find that. Extremely interesting, let's return back real quick to the story Martin's overall story because I feel like Martin story is interesting in the sense that it is. Both inspiring. A cautionary, tale as well as a Redemption story. All right, I think there's something that that everybody can take away from there. So let's go back to Kirtland. Martin has given up a tremendous amount, he's given up his first wife.

1:51:49 He sounds like some of his children are estranged at that point. He's given up money land. And to top it all off, he feels somewhat slighted as you indicated because he's not in that upper echelon. Are they are those the things that really lead to Martin's, apostasy, you think I'm sure it had something to do with it, you know, because when we all get get tempted, we get wrong ideas. Coming into our head, they push nudge nudge nudge, nice.

1:52:30 And then there's one big thing that makes or breaks us. So when it came time to face the Kirtland banking, Isis. And you know, Martin didn't even lose any money in it, right? You know, it's like you said yeah it's one thing. If you're like some of the other Brethren that went to get their money and the doors closed and Warren parish is telling them sorry you know no money or maybe warm Parish. I think he was the banker or something. So really, that really doesn't make a lot of A sense for Martin to totally apostatize over the Kirtland banking crisis because it did not affect him financially.

1:53:18 I never join as it says in the film. The Witnesses. That's correct. Historically correct. But there had to have been something that just kept leading into it and leading to it. And, you know, he was just overpowered by the evil influence of the The rapid is that other side of the pendulum from the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. And people saw angels and some salt felt do the Peter and maybe the Savior that came in to accept the dedication and tell us when Oliver see the Savior and how the prophets coming to assure the keys here, it is, the biggest high of the church and then they have the biggest load of the church, you know, a little over a year later where they have the confrontation in the temple where we're almost turns do, you know, people pulling out, Bowie knives, and the other almost turned into a bloodbath and Brigham Young had to stand up and defend Joseph Smith. So, you are right there had to have been something that history is hidden.

1:54:30 That led to Martin's of apostasy and its really kind of too bad because I feel had Martin stayed with church. I believe he would have been called to go to England and I believe he very possibly in the metals question of History will never know the answer to could have bore testimony before Queen Victoria and Prince Albert caught may have opened that way. What what? Better way to Very testimony before the king and queen of England. And we know I think it was forensics, know that got an audience finally or one of the Apostles finally with Queen Victoria but so I don't know that.

1:55:13 That's just my opinion. But also there's just so many things and all. This one thing I wanted to give it as an example of how I'm a little bit of a Maverick in my Approach and it goes back to Joseph Smith. And so, little bit about what I said about Martin being an apostle and Joseph Smith in 1826. Didn't get the place. We know that right I recently it said he thought it's going to take out when you had he. The Lord wants someone to go with him. Maybe to just keep the wire the horses from Alondra polling while he went along, she had to go alone, get the plates.

1:55:57 You had to meet in Rona and There was nobody, that could go to that last conversation with Moroni. I accept Joseph had to go alone but so he did he doesn't get the place making 26 and but he gets something 27:1. It was a day of the Feast of trumpets. So there's significance in moroni's trumpet on the statues of the temples but Joseph is also beginning the restoration. He's also in the position of a It kind of like a presiding Bishop kind of like a John, the Baptist he's following the spirit of Elias and we got to realize that Joseph Smith machine within the Book of Mormon, The Book of Mormon follows the spirit of Elias and, you know, they throw, Darcy look Mormon. Where's the temple work?

1:56:45 Where's the endowment? Dutta dutta, dutta dah Book of Mormons given to the world. It's a tanks of fullness of the Gospel of Salvation in the spirit of Elias. And then the Lord gives more It's in Doctrine and Covenants and the spirit of Elijah and so forth, you know, to spit out what leads to exaltation, so right? There's a phone. So the gospel of Salvation phones to the gospel exaltation. So if Joseph like presiding Bishop which we know is running priesthood Spirit of Alliance, it Paul says a bishop needs to have one wife now, chose doesn't have appreciated yet, but he's acting in the office of a bishop. So, because he's Over the dispensation and taking the plates out, a ground, giving them to Joseph is really when the, like, cutting the birthday cake and taking the first piece, right?

1:57:39 This is where true the rubber hits the road jealous building and have to do something now. So she's got the plates and so he's like a presiding Bishop, he's to have one wife and so he was married between by the time September 22nd. 18:27 came around and he took Emma with him to get the plates and Alvin had already died, but it's so he took his wife. So he was as a presiding Bishop officer, presiding Bishop. He took him and now that's the type of conclusions. I draw from my research and, you know, you won't find it in a manual and I don't know that. It's even controversial, but it's some may think it's controversial but it's my opinion and I do that kind of conclusions.

1:58:29 Make those conclusions on my own mirror. So, and now getting back to Martin. Yeah, I really don't know what if it had to have been jealousy. It had been some kind of jealousy. Maybe it's jealousy of, not only had he given up his property, but his family and he sees all these Brethren that are You know, not having to make a sacrifice and getting in favor and Mark. They were just learning about priesthood offices and didn't understand that. Joseph said that all officers in the priesthood or colonies in the church are honorable and you shouldn't put one above another and it what you should do is be faithful and with calling you were given and they didn't understand the role of families in eternity. Is the most important position we can obtain to in this life is father and mother.

1:59:32 You know it we learned that kind of in the endowment is like if member goes through the endowment and there's an apostle there, they receive the same thing. I had a friend that explained it as the great equalizer, the endowments, a great equalizer, and your father. So like in the Millennium or all maybe after This life. We won't know each other is Bishop so-and-so, Bishop Wilson. Okay. I'll just first thing that came to my head, it would be father Wilson, you know, that will be organized and families at the offices of the church are to bring us to Christ. And like Paul said and, you know, affecting the Saints, right?

2:00:20 Take care of the poor, the missionary work, etc, get the Saints. The temple, redeem, the dead, and so forth. So there hadn't been a lot of jealousy and Martin was accused for causing the apostasy of three of the original Quorum of The Twelve. Because they didn't take what he said, or mistook what. He said, he misspoke. He wasn't an orator like Oliver cowdery and he said, I'd song with my spiritual eyes and you know who in their physical eyes. It's going to work outside and see an angel, you know. Of course you got to be spiritual eyes, almost has to be some kind of transformation almost to the point of the Transfiguration, Transfiguration that took place, like happened on the Mount of transfiguration.

2:01:11 When Peter James, and John heard the voice of the father and saw Moses and Elijah. So like I say, just comes back to the affidavit and, you know, ya know. Oh, and you know, he never denied seeing the Book of Mormon, right? Ami. He he, he stayed firm with that all the way through, so after the apostasy, and Kirtland, does Martin ever go to Missouri? What before we say that what brings Martin back, Okay, he never goes to Missouri. Okay, never goes to Nauvoo.

2:01:53 He gets visited by missionaries every now and again and he finally gets visited by Edward Stevenson. Now, Edward Stevenson boy, is one of Mike, I have a closeness Deadwood Stevenson because what he taught me just by his example of what it's like to go and search his lost sheep and do something about it. Okay, Edward that they Brigham Young starts to get messages back from Martin Harris and they're starting to talk with Martin Harris.

2:02:37 He's getting older and but Edward Stephenson makes it his mission, okay? Remember the first Quorum of the seventy and this is a parable of the lost sheep and probably no stronger. The parable of the lost sheep exist in this dispensation than bringing Martin Harris to Utah and so Edward Stephenson does something about it and starts raising money to buy. Martin's, train ticket to bring him Wes. And he, so he goes and because they have this friendship. Now, there was a couple other missionaries, but they didn't have this lifelong friendship and see. Edward, and Martin have This friendship that started when Edward Steve was in, was about 14 years old and Martin came to Edwards house.

2:03:32 And when chose a top the gospel and Martin bore testimony to Edward Stephenson. He never forgotten it and it's so Martin Harris help convert Edward Stevenson. And so now he's kind of returning. The favor, kind of like that ecclesiastic scripture, cast your bread upon the water and then returns to you. So he brings him Wes and Martin says, Only going to stay for a couple weeks, you know, make sure it's a two-way ticket because I not plan on staying in Utah, but once he got in Utah, that all changed and when he came to Utah, he was re-baptized like the saints were when they come in the valley because it was considered a New Covenant because it was so dramatic of a change coming from Nauvoo to Utah.

2:04:21 So, it was like a re-baptism when the The church was organized, you know that when they some thought that the if they were baptizing 4846 and it need to be baptized with the Lord said he wanted to be baptized because it was a New Covenant. Notice a New Covenant when they came to West and Edward Stephenson is the one who convinced Martin to be re-baptized and so he was be baptized in the endowment house received as endowments. He gave a talk in General Conference. Sadly it's not recorded in the Journal of discourses. He had a lot of State in Salt Lake e month or two and had a lot of visitors. He is with Brigham Young but that's Martin somehow gained a testimony of Spirit of the children to the father's, you know, and fathers to the children is, that's probably what kept Him and you toss it.

2:05:30 He realized that he was one of the fathers of this. Dispensation, like, the founding fathers. Yeah, we have George Washington. The father of our country. We have Joseph Smith, the father of our dispensation, but we have any founding Fathers in this dispensation sure hyerim. Joe Smith, Senior show Smith Senior was given a promise my Joseph Smith junior, that it's in the Joseph Smith papers, and in a blessing, that the position of Joseph Smith Senior in the Millennium is to be the presiding patriarch over the Church and Kingdom. And that is right from a blessing, given by Joseph Smith, junior, you can find that metalsmith papers. Yep, I haven't, I've already read that. And so and so we have Martin Harris, Oliver cowdery. We had this whole group shows us night senior. There's a whole group of founding fathers of the dispensation.

2:06:29 Martin Harris is among them. I have to wonder to do we have any idea? What the, what the Conversations were between Brigham and Martin. Upon Martin's coming West. Well, I think Brigham help convincing to stay. But we don't have any record of that conversation, but you got to realize, Brigham, Scott, a family interest in Martin stain. Sure, because of Caroline, Caroline, it'll Caroline is brigands nice. you know, I would like to think I have nothing to back this up, but I would like to think that there was some Probably some some you know reminiscing about their days with Joseph together, right? Like weren't those great days to be objective because they were Martin.

2:07:26 Yeah. Oh I don't know if Martin was there and bring him was ordained because I think think Mark was there the second day. They didn't ordained all 12 of them the first day, but they both had an imminent knowledge, but it was so thankful, right? I was the Joseph and the apostleship. So when you got to realize Martin, It was never meant to be a presiding Apostle and it's dispensation but he was an apostle, what it says, the possible supposed to Bear testimony to the world. So he was an apostle. So when you talk about Brigham and Martin having a conversation, it was a conversation between two apostles.

2:08:10 Well, and that a lot of that reminiscing and there's a lot of things that Joseph probably told them that he might not have told the general membership of the church. Yeah. And there must have been some sort obviously of reconciliation there, right? Yeah. Kids get out of the Kirtland period. You do get this idea that Brigham and pardon the expression. Brigham was pretty pissed at Martin for turning on Joseph. Yes. And so you because because Brigham was a Fierce defender of Joseph Smith, almost a protector. And so, I can only imagine how the spirit must have worked with both men to get reconciliation to wear. Brigham says, just just stay.

2:08:56 These are your people. This is your family. Just stay here. And again, I think it's one of those things that that we can take from Martin's life and Brigham's life as well as it. We're all going to be on one side or the other of that. Equation, where somebody has to ask for forgiveness, and somebody has to extend forgiveness, right? And so sometimes I don't think we do justice to history in general, especially church history when we make statues out of these. These men are these women, right? We have to understand their foibles are very much our own, right? I mean they they dealt with pride, they dealt with Envy. Just like we do and It's inspiring at the end of the day, when you can see reconciliation, even after that much time when, when the two of them can come together after something, that was, as divisive as that Kirtland apostasy, and there's forgiveness asked forgiveness extended. And Martin can finish his days with the people. That are that are, you know his, right? He yes, his spiritual Brethren and and I think that's something that we as Mormons can take away that while we get into deep Doctrine and deep Doctrine is fun. That's why I do this podcast, right? I love talking about it.

2:10:23 We can't lose sight of the fact, That it's some of Christ simplest teachings that can make the deepest impact forgiveness. Being one of those. Yes. And as I look at the Deep doctrines is We've got to learn how to say, our families. They are sure friends. We have to progress at my age. I better be understanding of few more of these deeper doctor and shit. Yeah, beyond the hate to belittle our lesson manuals, but I need to be Beyond a hamster wheel, exactly.

2:11:03 Yep. You know, the younger people, that's a little different. They need more review but so And these deeper doctors really aren't all that deep. I may be people consider what I give in my presentations, it's deep, but I got back everything up with quotes and we can we can read between the lines and understand. Sure, but the application of these deeper doctrines is the simple. Approach of The Sermon on the Mount yet. Oh, the greatest sermon that we have in our scriptures and that really is the gospel.

2:11:49 And so when Merle and I said, the Book of Mormon contain the phone, so the gospel as delivered by the Savior 219 inhabitants since sermon on the mountain, you know. And and other things that Christ taught grew out of that. Sure, let me ask you this, we've Been at this now, almost two and a half hours. Well I thought it was only like an hour and a half. No, they go quick. That's normal. Especially when you talk about stuff you're passionate about. I want to ask you this question first. Why do you think Martin Harris? Doesn't get the amount of recognition that maybe he deserves. And I'm guilty of this to Lourdes. I was very apathetic course from Martin Harris, you know? So this I'm probably the worst offender if it, I think just judging him by the apostasy lost manuscript turning on Joseph. Joseph Kony mean and that letter from Liberty jail, and I just think, as a people maybe we haven't totally forgiven Martin and, and that, you know, Martin

2:13:22 just, maybe he broke under the pressure, you know, none of us know, How would react? We would react if we had to make a sacrifice. To the level that Martin did. And remember he's the ram in the thicket this dispensation know that almost look at that as an office. And so but and then we have such a busy life and maybe that's part of what we need to go back to what president Benson said and back to section. 84 is we need to return to the Book of Mormon and part of returning, the Book of Mormon.

2:14:05 Is learning. How to make sacrifices. You know, we learn about sacrifices in the scriptures trying to establish the United orders. It's some of its, in the endowment. It's so important how to serve others, how to be unprofitable servants. And that's one interesting thing, I'm going to refer to it in real quick. Here is, there's a miracle that took place with the loss of manufacturing. You the script and I called them Miracle of the Lost manuscripts and how it was put together. 116 Pages was the pages were sewn together and booklets of like a pamphlet of 24 pages and fold in half and sold in the middle.

2:15:01 That constant Royal skousen, I met with royal skousen the foremost authority on the original text Book of Mormon that's ever lived. He's a great guy and he's one of the few Scholars that was willing to meet with the old man off the street, the Deep cold turkey and so and they would put six of them together, so it would make 24 half pages if you if this video. I brought it with me. So 24 times four is 96 but the both row. And I feel that this last account of gathering a booklet How only had five I call them quad pages?

2:15:43 So it only had 20, so 96 plus 20 is 116. We feel, they ran out of paper and lady had to fold and keeping sequence. They had to figure out how big their I got you. A booklet was going to be before they start writing and so because of not having that six-page we did not lose. Kind of like the first two chapters of mosiah in our current Book of Mormon. Because it would have been equal to 4 quad pages and we have the scriptures of we would still be unprofitable servants. And when you are in the service of your fellow beings, you are only in the service of your God that had that last Gathering been sick Squad pages and we do have the lost 100 and what is 120 24 times six is oh no I wouldn't even attempt to do it.

2:16:39 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 92. 2496, lost 120 pages. Okay, it's that now I think the 116 pages is exact, because in essence, when you estimate like, I look at you and I wouldn't say you look like you're 46. I would say, you look like you're 45 or 50. Well yeah, I'm an estimated by trade and I usually go in increments of 5. And so I think the 116 pages From Joe Smith is exact and so that miracle of God preserving that part of the book of mosiah, particularly would have gone more into Ministry, and we've got to do what you say.

2:17:22 Forgiveness serving I just was a recipient of administering, something just almost out of the blue for the war I'm in and I can't take care of the yard and I had weeds and not as worried about the city getting on my case and next and someone organized Eyes youth project and adults. And I had 30 people there cleaning up our yard in about two hours that type of Industry approximates, a service. There's just so many things that I found some of these Treasures. I could talk about the lava Harvester, these historians have harvested the field. And these independent historians like Don Bradley, like you and myself, are gleaning, what's left behind and and its Treasures in the field.

2:18:12 And when the Lord said, treasure in the field in and say a Treasures, it's not an Easter egg hunt where everything's on top of the ground and whoever finds the one, with the right number gets the prize, there wins a bicycle like my cousin did when he was a kid, they're buried. You got to dig for Yep, you got to be a researcher and dig form. Well, final question and we'll wrap up. What is it? We as Mormons should take from Martin Heron Harris's life What's the overarching theme of his life? Okay. That's an interesting thing about a last question.

2:18:53 It's like a final statement in a trial, the one I didn't rehearse. The question, I didn't rehearse the answer to, but mostly that. Whatever God asks, we have to be willing. When I say have to be, we should be willing to give we never know what someone else is going through. Okay, I had my birth mother passed away when I was a baby. So, my father remarried. And, you know, that's been part of my trial. That's something that I've dealt with its birth. Mother is where I have the blood descendancy from Martin Harris but mostly sacrifice sacrifice brings forth, the blessings of heaven. And said, you know, it says in Ezekiel that have man turned from his Righteous ways.

2:19:47 He's so not be remembered. That's true. No, sadly, Martin fulfilled, that scripture, but that scripture doesn't say that. That had to last forever is that the someone turns her heart willing W Felts, Was ended affidavits against the Saints in Missouri and he came back. Joseph, we gave him. That's a best example of forgiveness that we have in this dispensation and you're familiar with the story and and William W Felts stayed true.

2:20:30 And that him is his gratitude to Joseph for forgiving him. Yeah, and it didn't take Joseph months to think about it, kills us. Did it right like that? When you've got that poem leaders friends at first friends at last to something has passed? Yep. And it's sacrifice. And that, you know, and all of us don't need to give up our homes. You know, it, all of us don't need to give up our families. Don't know what's going to happen. God gives us the trials and asked us to do sacrifices that help with our growth. You know, as but we've got to find our place in this world in this life.

2:21:23 We've got to know why God sent us here and I'm speaking more of you with me in a little bit older. And I don't know, you're a saint, I can ask but 4500, I got it right on yet. We each have a mission that's got to go beyond, just being a parent and saying, the grandkids, you know, if we live to be as old as me, okay. Like me, I could have died. You know, if I was a cat I'd be getting pretty close to nine lives by no. No. Okay, thank goodness.

2:22:03 I'm not a cat. But, you know, I came within an hour of nine and I had to make the decision whether to live or die and I breathing crisis just called the ambulance and but Most of us don't find that mission and it's not a mission that counts from an ecclesiastical leader. This is a different day and age with this much. Let the spirit of Elijah. The totals words, being fulfilled, your sons and your daughter's shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, Everything's changed. People are waking up all the world and all kinds of religion. I have friends in religion, so all the World.

2:22:46 I have friends in countries from all over the world. I interact with a my disease. I try to give encouragement to victims of who have been abused, whether it be in. I'm not a therapist but, you know, the sexually abused or what it's called. Alienation parent, a'lelia Nation, where p.m. one parent alienates the children against the Parent in custody cases, and I've met people and influence your people from all over the country and some of them met in person. And I don't have very good luck trying to get with Scholars and historians though.

2:23:33 It is on belief, wait below? 50%, because I don't carry any clout and Martin doesn't have the clout either. That's another part of the disconnect is. I've been turned down. To be on podcasts because I'm not a historian or an apologist. Even though I descended from Martin Harris. Some but we we've got an each Pond remission. You found yours. I found mine. I have so many presentations. I want to get together and I I'm trying to get a book together but the problem is I don't know what to leave out because it could possibly be a thousand Pages.

2:24:15 Just Aren't things that have come into my mind since I've had what I felt was a near-death experience. There's there's applications. The gospel is it's really simple but for people to expect everything to come from the ecclesiastical leaders. Is it just can't happen because we don't we aren't novel. We don't have Joseph teaching us on a weekly basis in our Sacrament meetings. No. It's and so Most people never find it and it, you know, some of them, it's just to be Temple workers and genealogist that's I've got a sister that does Side branch genealogy. Is that gonna be the impetus for me, giving the presentation that sound thousands of names and the side branch geology. I think you understand what I'm talking about, right? And boy, you've really got an opportunity when someone in your family.

2:25:15 I don't know whether it's Why for somebody? It's really there and we think all of the second coming is going to come in five years. You know, we've got to mine out as many names as we can and get them in the family search database before the Lord's going to reveal that which isn't recorded know. And so I don't think the second kind of can come anytime soon. I think we got too much work to do too much commissioner. We work to do. We've got to find why God sent us here more than just to be parents. This is the last days with Saturday's Warriors Mountain. I talked to a few people to found their mission, you know like the presenters at the Firm Foundation have found admission like Hannah Stoddard Rod Wayne met and who I just can't even describe Russell.

2:26:17 Whoa, I think he's been honors going to be on just published an episode this week. It's an honored you know to to know least people for me that a Founder missions. Is Jonathan Neville with former Jag lawyer, David Allen helped design, the atomic clock, Philip Bill, who's a mariner from England that on the Phoenicia Expedition the how the ocean currents could probably high, too. Florida, it just and then I have friends that don't believe the meso. I mean, the Heartland theory, I'm not going to go into that. You're going to have a lot of evidence and that's income from your other visitors, but it's just weird. We can all it's like, we're all trying to climb this mountain, the tops, where we all want to go, but we have a little bit different roads in the closer.

2:27:17 Out of the top, some of those roads come together and we take the same road till we finally close the top and then there's only one road that can make it the rest of the way. And we can say, is Frank admission find a place to serve? Yeah, you know I got a sister that she retired could travel you know financially set she spends 30 hours a week doing side branch genealogy turned in thousands of names to FamilySearch. You know I asked how many I thought she's going to say You Hunters me doing about four years and she said thousand, I thought I was losing. My hearing, I didn't know better have F, I had to have her. Say it again, to get S and so find your mission.

2:28:01 It will find your mission Martin. Found his mission later in life. He found his mission of coming back to the Saints. Now, it's going to take a while to heal his family. He died without a woman, being sealed to him, neither Caroline or Lucy were still to him. They've been posthumously sealed to him, but no, I want to live to be a hundred, you know, he was talking to somebody that, you know, if I'd waited an hour longer to call the ambulance, I'd have been waving at you from the clouds right now, and I can say, With the some of the topics I'm God there's just I'm not going to give away my thunder but you think everybody's all historians, have covered everything, you know, everything sound, you know, we haven't even begun.

2:29:00 The Lord knew what he said was said, everything's going to be revealed. You know, yep, personal revelation is so important, personal revelation about your mission but I've talked long enough for two and a half hours. I didn't realize it was that long, it's all right. Well man, I loved having you on. I love the amount of history that you have that you've studied. I've told all my guests this and the same thing applies to you. You have a standing invitation to come back on. So as you find more stuff, maybe after you release some of that Thunder, you talked about give me a Let's get you back on. Yeah, and my thunder, it's actually God's under.

2:29:42 Okay, we got a not take credit because we know God works through us and it's like we got to remember one from Josephus, was asked the question, can Mormons raise the dead and he said no but God can raise the dead through man as an instrument. We're all just instruments in God's hands. No God uses us to Loosen the Frozen pole on somebody's brains is where they can let in a little more knowledge or something. And I keep thinking well I've mind everything out, I can't find new stuff or even new topics and all of a sudden I've got three or four topics before I even get to Martin and kirtland's like we talked about, it's always starts out as one or two ideas and then it just turned.

2:30:35 It's into a many Masters Theses are representations in many Masters thesis for me because and so I'm a hard person to listen to and probably a little bit. Like in this podcast, is I, when I gave a presentation I'm like an Auctioneer a college professor because I don't like 45 minutes and I get one shot. It's like the Olympics doing all this preparation. You get one shot to perform the Olympics and so I have my slides and it's my notes and I I just started going through, you don't have one shot here. Like I said, you have a standing invitation to come back on and our probably will, it'll probably be a few months, whenever you're ready. So because I do want to support it because I feel very comfortable and I love your audience being as big as it is because the word of mouth advertising is going to be worth it.

2:31:31 And I don't feel Strained by time. No. Do it. And they think nice thing about podcast is, you know, you can stop and 45 minutes and listen to the rest of it later and I just love it. Yep, absolutely can't. You're awesome man. Thank you for coming on. Okay, I really appreciate it. So I'm glad my voice held up because sometimes my disease, it gets a little weak, but nope, you did awesome. So again, thank you. I appreciate it. Okay. All right, by everybody.