Episode #37: Repelling The Latest Attacks On Joseph Smith & The First Vision W/Justin Francom

0:05 So there are a ton of things I've learned by doing this podcast. The one thing that I learned that I never saw coming was just to what lengths people are willing to go to discredit Joseph Smith and other early LDS church leaders. See this very same tactic, it was used before to discredit the founding fathers of the United States in order to remake the country into something. It was never supposed to be. Well, as I said earlier, now the same tactic is creeping into Mm, discredit the founder. Then Mormonism can be turned into something else entirely. It was brought to my attention by my friend Justin frankcom that the newest effort regards Joseph Smith in the first Vision, the charge that is being made by those seeking to undermine the foundations of the restored gospel.

0:46 Is that Joseph? First Vision was not of heavenly origin but was instead his experiences while on hallucinogens now as Preposterous as the sounds people are buying into it in the movement is growing. So on this episode just and I break down this Theory. And look at what its proponents Trot out as evidence. I'm sure that you'll come up to it with the same conclusion that Justin and I have that the idea that Joseph's First Vision was the result of quote, a trip is complete nonsense and the accounts they use as evidence do not pass scrutiny. My hope is that by the end of this podcast, you'll be armed with the facts and be able to refute this claim when you encounter it. And that's next on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast, So, I just want to take a moment to thank you. The Listener, when I started this podcast I wasn't sure if anyone would really listen.

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3:47 Welcome back to the Mormon Renegade podcast as always you can get ahold of me either by email at Mormon Renegade at gmail.com. You can also get a hold of me on Instagram and Twitter and getter under the handle. Mormon Renegade. Also we have a website up and that's Mormon Renegade.com. So go check that out. Well Justin, have you been big guy? I've been great. How's life treating? You? It's a banana. Venture out here. Trying to get a kind of the homestead started out in Missouri. I was. So what would all how long ago did you make that move? I'll it was probably earlier this spring late summer or early summer, probably early summer.

4:31 Yeah, yeah, I was a little bit late to get a garden going. Unfortunately, you know, I imagine so real quick. What do you think of humidity? I love it. I sorta Mission South Korea, and it's very humid there, and it's the climate's very similar and I actually love the climate. I like it getting gets hot but not too hot. It gets cold. Not too cold. And the humidity is. I love it manageable. I remember when I went to Maryland and where we were living in Maryland, we were on the Delmarva Peninsula, right between the Atlantic and the Chesapeake, and man, I could tell you what, I remember, getting off the plane thinking, I am drowning on dry land. It was just, it was so.

5:15 So humid took me forever to get used to it. But well, I brought you came on for a very specific purpose, right? And and this is unlike, I think any conversation anyone's done with in Mormonism so far and we're going to start by asking the question. Did Joseph Smith and I giggle even saying it because it's one of those things I'm like I can't believe I'm saying this out loud, right? The things that I found I've had to do sometimes and say just for me and this is one of them. There's a lot of Internet chatter right now.

5:57 There's a lot of stuff on the blogosphere. You know that talks about kind of a latest proponents of those folks who maybe don't Want to Discount. Joseph saw something but at the same time want to rationalize it away their latest argument is is that Joseph Smith was using psychedelics. Most likely mushrooms to have the first Vision. I've read some other things since you first brought this up to me, where there's even some people who say, oh, all that stuff in Kirtland, that was a mass hallucination. You know, they were spiking the Wine with psilocybin and all these other things.

6:43 And so naturally, when you brought this up to me, I'm like, all right, here's another one. I'm going to have to go in and try to deconstruct because if you take out the underpinnings of Joseph's first vision and it's not what he purported it to be. Well then you've kind of taken out the whole underpinnings to the Restoration movement. You know what I mean? Yeah, I can understand that perspective. Absolutely. And I've got some serious concerns because I brought this issue to you, right? Because I told you that I've got some concerns. This is becoming a topic that's being becoming more widespread. And I have some concerns about the way it's being presented. And and frankly, I mean, I'm not the greatest historian, I'm more of a philosopher Theologian type. And so, I don't you know as far as like arguing historic minut details as not really my thing but I think II do have an awareness of of well critical thinking and looking at motivations and reasons why Let me ask you this you around. Yeah, let me ask you this.

8:01 You said that you were seeing some things in conjunction with this. That was really concerning you. What are those things? Well I just so just to be completely open and honest here. I have experience with some of these theologians and I'm actually not inherently opposed to these types of plant medicines so too. Speak. But I am very concerned about rewriting history and trying to shoehorn things in that are inaccurate. I Believe In Truth Above All Else. And so, when I see well, first of all, from from a historical perspective when I see people trying to manipulate a story change history, that that kind of rubs me wrong, but it's actually more than that.

8:51 Because I've also seen people that get involved in some of Is things that take a very negative turn in the gospel. It does seem to be. I don't think it's inherently a problem, but it does seem to be something that leads people away from the gospel in the restoration, or it can if it's not in the proper context. And that's, that's my greatest concern. Is that this is being promoted as an alternative and that it's going to lead people that some of these, some of these lives can lead people to vaults understandings. And ideas and perceptions of the history and authenticity of the restoration. Right? Right.

9:32 No, I think that's that's well said because look if If you were taking any of these things with this idea of it will just by its very nature, bring you closer to deity. I'm not sure that's the right mindset to be going in with that, right? I mean and and that that scares me greatly. The other thing that scares me about this is what I alluded to here, just a few seconds ago, which is I feel like it's another. Another tactic of taking out the legs from under the movement that Joseph Smith started the restored gospel, right?

10:13 We the first time I had you on, it was about Justin Griffin and the, the you know who killed Joseph, Smith movie, right, and trying to take out Brigham's legs and I think this is just another another effort in that same vein. Wayne to, to take the gospels Foundation out from under it. Well, absolutely. And it's that many patient of History. You know, when you have People like well when you have Broussard McConkey talking about, I'm not going to eat when you have a.

10:55 Yeah. Bruce are McConkey talking about you know rewriting the history and Adam God wasn't something that Brigham Young taught changing that for whatever whatever your intentions are it create lying about the history of misrepresenting the history, ultimately leads to the truth will come out and it leads to a crisis of faith for a lot of people when and it's just it. Why go down that road. If it's unnecessary, if it's not factual, if it's not what was really going on and you know, but ironically it has been as I've gone into it and as I looked at the history with that question in mind, and as I've listened to some of these Arguments for it, it's actually convinced me that I had this point. I am I'm pretty much Neo 99.9 percent positive that that was not the case and that is not the History of the restoration, it wasn't a part of it.

11:51 So let's break down the argument first that, that the those who seek to rewrite history use, right? What, what do they use as an argument that this is what he did. Well, you know, actually you know if you don't mind if I took a step back from that shirt real quick first, I think I like to look at the motivations I mean why what would the argument be for why you would want to insert this into the history? Because I think that's really what I mean. I think some people honestly are looking for truth and some people believe are starting to believe this because they think the evidence The lines that way.

12:37 But the people promoting it, I don't believe necessarily that. That's their intent is that they're seeking truth. I, you know, I think there's a few different motivations here and one of the most obvious is the denial of the restoration, obviously, and a lot of writers non-lds writers are talking about this because for them this is a way to explain the restoration and parts of the restoration that are pretty unexplainable. Like how did This kid from New York crate. You know, this greatest American religion and they need an explanation for that they need. You know, they need an atheistic rational explanation.

13:19 And if it was a theage ins, that explained the Visions than the and all the things that that Miracles, that things that people experience in the restoration and that Batson out for them to discredit everything entirely. So I think you've got that kind. The motivation. And now another motivation though is some of these people are promoting these ideas that still at least for now claim to be faithful members of the restored gospel. And I think for them, it's actually the idea here is they're pulling Joseph Smith down to a more equal footing with themselves. If it was just if Joseph Smith wasn't special other than he just found This this medicine that can connect him with God, then we'll then they can do the same and if they connect to that medicine and they have different ideas. That's just as valid, there's no power or authority in Joseph Smith other than what they can just take themselves, what they can achieve themselves.

14:25 So, I think another aspect aspect of that is kind of pulling Joseph Smith down not necessarily to discredit him, but just to allow themselves to have, Equal footing without maybe necessarily having the equal call or response, you know, calling or responsibility from God to you know, restore truths. And you know the final one and this is the one that concerns me the most is that I think it can be used as a justification for people. They're looking for a shortcut to God and if you can connect to God through some medicine and that's it, there's no no ordinances required. No Commandments, no nothing.

15:09 You just can take some medicine and wow. Now you're you're with God, then you know, in my opinion, that's that's what I would call. A shortcut. It's an easier path. You don't have to sacrifice anything. You don't have to conform to anything that you don't want to, you can make your own reality and as a shortcut, that's, that's kind of my biggest concern here, is that people are looking at this as a, that by promoting this idea, it creates a shortcut. So and there's so many ways that that can go wrong, right? I'm just sitting here off the top of my head, you know, if you're looking for a shortcut to try to have a deeper connection with the Savior or your heavenly father, there are no shortcuts.

16:00 I mean it doesn't really work like that. You have like any relationship you have to put in the time you got to put in the effort and even for the most seasoned, Adherent to the restoration. That's an ongoing process, right? And and, and part of living, the gospel is the journey, right learning how to communicate the other problem I have or the concern I have. Is that with when people want to take that kind of shortcut, I worry that they could be susceptible in that state to influences that may not necessarily be from, from a good source, right? Not coming from our cattle, Kevin coming from the adversary. I worry about that entirely.

17:03 Well, I think, yeah. And that's very common in a lot of the, any kind of New Age movement, right? It's the whole idea of the New Age movement is that we are God. And therefore, you know, we there is no other God. We are God, we create the Law of Attraction. We don't need to ask God, we don't have to be obedient to God's laws and Commandments. We can we can create our own reality. And while there is certain truths to that the way, it's gone about buy a new age. It's a replacement, it's a shortcut. You don't have to Worship or no, God, you can have these things without it and that's, that's very, very dangerous.

17:47 What could go wrong with something like that? Well, you know what, you see here is different stories and interpretations of experiences that when people have people have under psychoactive substances, you know, a lot of the If you're really, if everybody was always connecting to God the right way every time then I think everybody would come out with the same message, everybody would get the same kind of ideas, the same kind of Revelations, but we can, we can clearly see that's not the case. So it is opening yourself up to Diverse spirits. And all, we already know that those aren't all of all from God.

18:35 And you know, what? I also think is like, when you have, well, we already know that, you know, blessings are predicated upon laws And if you don't have to obey God's will but if you can get the things you want in your life, through exerting your own will without you know, if you could find happiness and contentment through exerting your own will then we don't need God. And as somebody who believes in God and believes, God is our father and gives us these things to gives us Commandments for our own benefit. That's very dangerous. Because now you can it's the lie it's the lie that you believe that's That's that gets you.

19:17 It's not the, it's not the, the maybe even the truth that you don't understand, or don't comprehend yet. Right. Look, I want to make it clear here. I don't have an axe to grind as far as what people do with their own Consciousness. It's not something I would do. However, I have seen a lot of research coming out about veterans being helped tremendously by the use of plant medicine, so if it helps someone then great, but I don't think it should be used as a shortcut or substitute to experience the atonement working on a person's behalf or experiencing the atonement and Their own lives.

19:57 Does that make sense? Justin. Yeah, I think that's very a valid way of looking at that or an invalid approach and yeah, I think that's pretty fair. But again, my concern is is that yeah, shortcuts. And that's probably my biggest concern. I first kind of became aware of this. I can't seem to find. I was reviewing it just the other day. That there's a more of a academic paper, put out about Joseph Smith and playing the Joseph Smith was using psychedelics. It wasn't really well thought out. It was more of a my opinion. It's more of a hit piece. If somebody from the outside of the church who is just trying to explain the Mormon phenomena. But more recently a little bit more recently in 2017, there was a sun stone Symposium where you had a couple presenters talking about this idea that Joseph Smith was basically drugging the Mormons and that's We're all these revelatory experiences came from and how I started researching it and then it was pretty apparent that at least to me that that's definitely not the case.

21:06 And it's concerning to me that it's being promoted because well, especially because people who have Who have that are presenting these ideas, some of them know better you know especially if their experience with some of these plant medicines they really should know better and if you don't have experience yourself you might not even realize that. So I guess that's another reason I felt like I wanted to discuss this topic was because I feel like I'm coming from a place of neutrality. As far as whether or not Joseph Smith was using any substances. And and possibly even favorable towards the idea and yet the research that I've done and the arguments that I've looked at, just don't hold any water.

21:53 So what's what are the arguments they put forth in that? Hey Joseph was on shrooms, right? I mean as I've read through it, that seems to be what they're saying, right? Is that he was using psychedelic substances to have psychedelic experiences. And one of them, he just happened to tap into that he was able to start a new religion. Yeah yeah exactly. So I'm going to borrow from some of their research because like I said I'm not a not the most minut scholar when it comes to some of these details and they brought up some of the best evidence they could find in favor of this idea.

22:37 And frankly it really doesn't hold a lot of water. So this first one here is a quote from parley Pete Pratt And he says, as I went forth among the different branches, some very strange spiritual operations were manifested, which were disgusting rather than edifying. Some persons would seem to Swoon Sway and make unseemly gestures or be drawn or disfigured in their countenances. Others would fall into xsj ecstasies and be drawn into contortions cramps. Fits excetera others would seem to have visions and Revelations, which were not edifying and which were not congenial. Niall to the doctrine and spirit of the Gospel, in short, a false and lying Spirits seem to be creeping into the church which are right there.

23:25 I think that's a, that's a great warning sign that about even without the use of intelligence. But they go on and say it will probably fight went on to say feeling our weaknesses and inexperience, unless we should error in judgment, concerning the spiritual phenomenon, myself, John Murdoch, and several other Elders went to Joseph Smith and asked him to inquire of the Lord concerning these Spirits or And the stations and the argument or the implication here is that feeling our weaknesses and inexperience? The implication is that they were getting high on shrooms or something and not having a lot of experience with they were having these weird reactions and so they went to Joseph Smith for for some kind of consultation because he's the master of these things, right?

24:12 And and I mean just I don't know. I I personally even just in that quote itself, I don't see it. It sounds the exact opposite to me for one thing. You kind of would have to assume that this was widespread and that everybody knew about this and was doing it in that case if especially if they are going to Joseph Smith for instruction on these matters, that would imply that this was well-known using plant medicines and stuff for mushrooms. And if that were the case, there would be absolutely be a A lot more significant evidence of that and writings about that. Then you know, then an implication here of feeling our weaknesses and inexperience being oh well, there you go, that's it. That's proof that it was mushrooms. Okay, so let's let's go the other direction. Then, just with this argument, what could they be talking about, then concerning their, in experiences in their weaknesses? If it's, if they're not referring to psychedelics where they referring to?

25:18 Well, I would think it's just experience is with visions and Revelations and all of this stuff. I mean, this isn't, this isn't new among Christianity in general where there's clearly, no psychedelic Involved you get a bunch of people together and if they're all seeking God but not in the right way. Even without the use of any kind of plants, you can induced states of of confusion lying Spirits can come among you and people can get confused and deceived. I mean, weakness and experience towards having visions and Revelations I would I would argue these people are having these powerful manifestations and you know I've I haven't personally.

25:59 And party too. But I know people have been party to events that they would describe very similar to this where no plant medicine were involved at. All right. Just don't you people got together and things ended up getting a little out of control. We have to remember too that two things are happening simultaneously, as Joseph is restoring. The gospel one is, is that the whole areas called? The burned-over district, right? Be, yeah, that he's in because there is a lot of religious fervor there are, you know, revivals taking place. And some of the wildest shows I've ever attended weren't rock concerts, but revivals, right.

26:45 And so you, you know, they were looking people, were looking for those manifestations, talking in tongues, and ecstasies, and those sorts of things. And so, That, that was massive. On the other hand, Joseph was also having to deal with. No God still does talk to us, right? Because there was a lot of people on, in that same time period, who are like looked visions and Revelations those are over, there's no need for those. Now we have, we have the, the Canon of scripture, which, you know, at that time. Consisted of the old New Testament and some good commentary, so we don't need visions and Revelations. Any longer and so you probably would have a people who would be obviously people that are drawn to Joseph for probably people who are looking for some of those scriptural experiences, right?

27:44 But don't have a lot of experience in it. So I I'm with you on this one, right? Is that I think what they're talking about is trying to bring a people along that? Don't have experience with spiritual manifestations, but yet are eager to have them. Yeah, exactly. Looking for shortcuts. And you know, my my Studies have Doctrine and Covenants, actually, you know, when these issues get brought up and Joseph Smith's, Revelations to me, the doctor in Covenant seems to be a framework for how to balance those extremes.

28:26 On the one hand You've Got There Are No Visions Revelations, God doesn't speak to man anymore. On the other hand, you've got you know, God's speaking to me through this bird and it's telling me I need to go and And take my family into the woods and I don't know do kinds of weird weirdness, you know I had a why I know somebody who suffered a psychotic breakdown and believed that he was the drummer exactly. He was the well he thought he was Christ himself. He thought that that the president of the church was going to visit him and give him the keys and he would take over and that There were new ordinance, he had new signs and ordinances for the temple and I mean, all kinds of crazy stuff and I mean that wasn't medicine Bay.

29:13 That was the psychotic break, but I mean these accesses right. You can go too far, either direction and the revelations and Doctrine Covenant seems to be a framework on how to approach this properly and the principles on how to how to do this properly. And first and foremost, is that faith and relationship with God and that not obedient It's to God's Commandments and you know, this actually wasn't brought up but I'm there's a trying to remember. There's a story I'd heard when Joseph Smith was translating The Book of Mormon, where he was He'd had a fight with Emma, and he was struggling to translate afterwards and it just was all darkness and he couldn't, he couldn't translate and he had lost his gift temporarily and he was inspired to go and reconcile with Emma. And when they worked things out, he was able to continue forward with the translation and see that's not a shortcut. That's, that's that's what the scriptures teach. That's what the, the gospels in the New Testament. Teach is that we have to Live.

30:22 Our lives as certain way to receive the benefits and the gifts of God. And so to me the doctor and Covenants, lays down that framework on, here's how you can experience these things. Here's how you can come to God the right way. And I, you know and to me just you know experimenting with mushrooms that's in and of itself. That's not the right way, right? Right? So what are the, what are some other arguments they use for Joseph Smith using psychedelics? Well, the theories kind of go that he developed this? He was taught by somebody, which is interesting because, you know, like the some people think it's must spend the Indians taught him. The Indians have been using these medicines for a long time and he learned from an Indian other people. There was a mentor, somebody who had taught Joseph. That's when he was younger, who threw some really really stretch stretches of assumptions later in his life might have experimented with psychedelics and snow. He maybe he learned from him.

31:33 Either way. The idea is that this is something Joseph Smith was experimenting with trying to figure out the right way to use and that leads to an account. That was quoted in the book. Rough Rolling Stone. Which you know, granted it is a little bit of a disturbing story. I haven't gone into the details on it to know how you know authentic and accurate. It is but this one was, let's see. This quote was saying, there's a meeting with Joseph where he was ordaining. Harvey Whitlock to the high priest stood, the most important business of the meeting and, and Whitlock, reacted badly. He turned as black as Lyman was white Hancock, reported his fingers were like claws.

32:26 He went around the room and showed his hands and tried to speak. His eyes, were the shape of O's And so, all of the eyes were the shape of owes the pupils must be dilated? That's, that's proof of, you know, psychedelics being involved. Well, you know, I yeah, it's a certain degree. You got to look at cause and effect to actually and we haven't, we haven't talked about this but You got to ask well, why are the eyes dilated? Is it because of medicine or and that's causing that effect, or is there some spiritual thing? That's that would also cause the same physiological effect because I mean I think that our bodies are important and the things that to me, if signs were to monitor the body and be able to say, oh, this is what's going on in the body, when you're hot, when you're praying, when you're having a spiritual experience and being able to measure that, that doesn't mean you're not having a spiritual experience. It That mean that you're just having a physical experience just because you can measure it physically, right? So I mean, I think that's really important to understand but in this case so there so they were astonished at the turn of events Hiram exclaimed, Joseph, that is not of God and Joseph unwilling to cut the phenomena short told Hiram to wait. But Hiram insisted, I will not believe unless you inquire of God and he owns it.

33:47 And so Joseph, then bowed his head and in a short time God up and commanded Satan to leave and then Harvey laying his hands upon his head at the same time. And then Hancock said to Lehman copeley who weighed over 200 pounds somersaulted in the air and fell on his back, over a bench and then wait cast Satan out of coal. Plea and Cokely was closed calmed. So that story first of all, you know, 200-pound man, suddenly doing a backflip. Flip also doesn't sound like psychedelics, you know, maybe super soldier serum, right? But, uh, but not mushrooms. And the the idea here is that he was being ordained, and they ordained with oils back, then, a lot of times.

34:32 And so, the oil might have been laced with something which, you know, that's a real real stretch. I mean modern today, with modern science, understanding of chemistry, is it possible to create a topical oil? That will Produce an effect? Yeah, absolutely. It's possible. But did people did people have that technology, where they aware that? Have that kind of understanding back then? It's very, very doubtful and that such a thing would have to be. So concentrated to the other thing. A lot of people don't maybe not might not realize is that with most of these medicines, it takes time for them to come into effect. They're not instantaneous, you don't, you don't have a plant medicine experience, where you take something, and then you're instantly in an altered state. State at least not a topical or most oral type things that a natural plant medicine, they don't, they don't react that way.

35:24 In fact, I was reading some of the ancient Mayans would use plant medicine enemas, in an attempt to increase the speed of onset of the effects because you know, you take something orally, you know, it can take, you know, half an hour even longer before you start seeing any kind of any kind of effect on the body or the mind. So, The idea that that you did, anoint somebody with an oil back then with some psychedelic. That was so powerful that it would just kind of instantly. Put somebody in that kind of states is pretty absurd. It also really doesn't explain what then happened to Lehman copeley afterwards and what happened to him?

36:05 What was he Anointed with oil as well? Why did he suddenly become possessed as well? So with both of those It's inconsistent. It doesn't really fit the narrative here. It's kind of being injected in a way that doesn't really fit and frankly it's more of just filling this narrative that he Joseph Smith was experimenting with his stuff yet still he didn't get the dose. Right. That's why that's why. That's why was it Whitlock RV. What? That's why Harvey Whitlock had a bad experience because he just he got too much.

36:46 Was too strong. And so yeah. Again this narrative, I don't see it, it's not there at all to try to make try to inject that into this story is disingenuous to anybody who knows anything about this. Anybody that has any experience well in that it further cast aspersion on on Joseph Smith's character, right? I mean essentially what what they're trying to say Say. Here is that? Joseph Smith was like slipping people roofies, right? Yeah, exactly. And so, no, you look at you. Look at the whole argument and it just it's gross. I don't know how else to put it.

37:34 It's just gross. Well, and I, you know, I don't want to get too personal here, but I've had experience, I've had spiritual experiences without any kind of psychedelic, plant medicine or anything and I've had good spiritual experiences. I've also had some pretty scary spiritual experiences and so this idea that you that that it's just a Smith's fault here to like you're saying, not only, are they saying that not only is implication that he's slipping people drugs? He also the implication is that this satanic manifestation was due to Joseph Smith. Experience with administering, these drugs as opposed to knows a bad Spirit came in, Satan's came in and and came in and manipulated the the spiritual experience which we have that exact same account with with Moses.

38:24 And even Joseph, Smith's vision of there are dark spiritual forces out there. And that's also very clear and Doctrine and Covenants. And so, this kind of tries to put the blame come on Joseph Smith and I don't think that's very fair either, you know, and I think I was kind of trying to figure out how someone even came up with the idea that this is where it came from, right? And one of the things I thought about is, you know, our people projecting people who dislike religion in general projecting writer, they projecting their there, Jim Jones fears, You know, back on Joseph Smith a little bit, that's a good point. And that's the thing too.

39:13 I mean, I, I believe in spirituality, but I also believe in religion, right? The religions the framework in which we interpret and understand these kind of spiritual experiences, but I think a lot of these people they want to divorce. They want they want the spiritual experiences but they don't want the religion and ultimately like you're saying, this is kind of a way of Escaping the religious aspect of it. You don't have to believe, Joseph Smith was a prophet, but you can believe that well, maybe he received some things that were true because he was just on some plant medicine. Yeah, and but again, if that's the case.

39:55 Right. Cuz the whole restoration movement revolves and starts with this idea that Joseph, Excuse experience, what he said he experienced. And so if he is in any way compromised in that you've Now cast dispersion and doubt upon the foundations of the restoration. And that's scary part. I might challenge you a little bit on that because I do believe that some things were not as initially as Joe Smith, initially proclaimed them to be a lot of the first Vision.

40:39 I mean, you know, the atheist say that he changed the story. I believe he, he revealed more and more as he was more comfortable sharing more. I would, I would agree with that. Now, a lot of the doctrines doctor, Edge was something that just wasn't very kept very close to his chest to the point that you've got people denying that he taught it and lived it even because of that. But that doesn't mean that he didn't did that there might not be, you know, there could be thing. I mean, I'm open to the idea that well, maybe there were things that he just kept closer to his chest, not because it wasn't true, but because people weren't ready to receive it. So II, do understand, the idea that will maybe that plant medicine was one of those things.

41:20 I don't think that is a completely. Good argument to be honest. But if you're a guy because you have to look at the totality totalitarian, excuse me, the totality of their argument, which is Joseph, Smith was power-hungry everything else, right? If, if it was plant medicine that got him to that point, he would be all for other people taking it right? My thought is if he's that guy, he's going to introduce that a lot sooner, right? Oh sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, they're kind of trying to argue that he did and that explains everything because he did start, you know, but it was in secret, but it wasn't in secret. It's a very, it's a, very inconsistent narrative and and there's, there's a large difference between holding certain things closer to the vest until you feel like people are ready to hear it. as opposed to being in a compromised, state of mind, when you have your foundational religious experience, Sure, I can understand that. Yeah.

42:29 Absolutely. And so I think that probably the biggest argument is this idea of the Kirtland Temple experience, mmm, because you had, like, 500 people having these powerful visions and spiritual edifying ones to to point out, you know, no, no devil sneaking in and causing Mischief type of experience and you've got happening to all of these people. And so, if you want to believe that, Joseph Smith was using And theologians, then this is the, this is the best X, this is a perfect explanation for how you'd have that much witness and testimony of these kind of spiritual things. And so, that's probably, I think it's one of the are the key arguments or one of the key premises is that that can explain how it how so many people had, you know, a powerful experience.

43:26 But it's also ironically, probably the very It's probably the most fault flawed premise of all of them as well. Yeah. I so in in preparation for this, I did a lot of looking at what some of those experiences are like, right, and, you know, in full disclosure. I certainly tried it as a young man before I was a Mormon. But the thing I found is this, this isn't something that causes Mass hallucinations That everybody sees the same thing, these are personalized experiences, right?

44:07 So this idea, so there the idea that you know in Kirtland with the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, Joseph put some psilocybin in the sacramental wine or whatever it is. The thing that says he didn't do that as the fact that people are saying they saw the same things, right? You have independent corroborating Once that show that he is that they are witnessing the same event, right? If you're on some kind of hallucinogen, those are all very personal experiences that are dictated in a lot by the baggage you carry around.

44:53 And as humans we know we all carry different types of baggage. Some stuff is similar but we carry different kinds of baggage. So this idea that hundreds, if not thousands of people are witnessing the same thing, and you can chalk that up to a to a mass hallucination. I don't buy it. Well exactly. And this is something that people who have a don't have any experience with these kinds of things wouldn't might not be aware of but you don't lose. So I think that as this is presented, its the idea here is that well Joseph Smith suggested to them that they saw these things and because they are under these effects, therefore they saw them. And if you don't have experience with that, you might you might assume that that these kinds of these kind of medicine. Is a hypnotic type of a experience where you can where you're open to suggestions and you know, people can tell you what you see and you'll see it.

45:53 And that's also, you know, that's deeply flawed and people who do have experience with these things, know that it is like you said it is a very, you know, it's very personal and you are not in a state where you can't decide or discern things, you don't lose your identity. You are. I mean, that was one of my Biggest concerns with, with even having, you know, going into an experience with plant medicine was, well am I going to lose my self? Am I going to come out of it? Somebody else or even just for a moment. Am I gonna am I going to lose myself? And frankly, I that's not the case. I think alcohol actually is more likely to put you in a state of being open to suggestion, then any kind of in theologians would and even then is most people Oh no, not me. Not most people.

46:45 But as many people might have had experiences with alcohol. Even then you know, if you're if you're drunk and somebody says, oh look that's an angel. You're not just be like, oh wow, amazing. Right. So yeah, that's one of the issues and, you know, another one of the issues with the whole Kirtland thing. That's to me, is just the smoking. The Smoking Gun is dose dosage with plant medicine is pretty important. If you don't have enough of, if you don't receive enough medicine, you're not going to have any discernible effect whatsoever. If you have too much, you're going to be in a coma, it could possibly kill you. You, so how do you administer plant medicine to 500 people and get the dose for all of them?

47:36 Exactly right. Unless you had some sort of a very obvious manipulated situation. How much do you weigh? Okay come here and you're willing your metallic a here, take drink this and now you. Okay you're about that big. Let me thank you to take this. If it was if it was just spiked wine and the thing is they When to that fasting. And so if it was just an well, first of all, they went into a fasting and they particular wine and bread freely during during the dedication. So it wasn't a controlled situation and if the wine was spiked then and then, you know, you have some small woman go and take two or three glasses, you know, she got it, she would have been in a coma could have died if it was strong enough dose, if it wasn't that. Wrong enough.

48:28 Dose than, you know you know men who only had who would have only had a single glass would have, would have had any kind of experience or effect at all whatsoever. It's really, it's pretty much impossible to have a situation here where you've got a spiked wine and you have that many different people with that many different body weights, metabolisms and you somehow end up with nobody Keeling over and everybody having a Oil Visionary experience. It's just it's not possible. It just doesn't hold water. I mean it doesn't, it doesn't work. I don't know how many ways you look at it, it just can't work.

49:14 so yeah, that's that's that's a big A big red flag as far as as their reasoning and again if it's just a cult of personality to Justin even with the AIDS of psychedelics, that Fades really quick. That face really quick or it goes off the rails horribly. And then it fades again, right? But at one point or another, those kind of groups that use psychedelics for those purposes. Usually end up going off the rails or just fading away Into Obscurity.

49:54 With the exception, with the exception of people who follow the Grateful Dead, they managed to get away with it for a long time. So sure. Yeah. Well and I got one more, one more count here that I've that that has been shared and this is an account from a physician, which therefore means it's true, couldn't possibly be wrong because we all know that Physicians are God and are always correct and this was a Jasper CMOS. And this was a, he was a skeptic. He was among the saints but he wasn't. He was skeptical, Joseph Smith.

50:36 He was skeptical of the restoration. He went into this from a non-believing. Intent. Right? And this is a quote that he shared from his you'd almost say infiltration of a meeting with Joseph Smith and some other people. He said I attended their meeting I believe I was the first person with a young man whose name I have forgotten who was present when they took what was called the sacrament up at the morally house. They were in the habit of turning everybody out of the door when they partook of the Bread and Wine.

51:17 Putting up blankets at the window shutting off the site from without and they started a regular powwow and when they got well going, then they open the door and let us all come in again. And so again, already, he's describing this in a way that is already - right a powwow. It's he's using terminology here that is derogatory and is already implies that. That it wasn't any kind of a spiritual experience to people were having. It was they were just freaking out. They were just, they were just off their rocker. but then he goes, he continues on and says Let's see that I get old, man, and myself made it up that we would stay in unless they took us out by force. The young man, got a sleep and I had the dummy evil and could not talk, but they did not carry us out. But went on with the sacrament, the Poor House in Portage County Ohio, where there were half a dozen, insane and idiotic persons was the best comparison of anything to the scene that night.

52:23 And if I had my cloak on, I would have stolen the wind and carried it home. I'm to see whether it was drugged or not. So, oh, this guy's a doctor. He thinks maybe the wine was drugged therefore contemporary evidence, which another but you know in rally somebody else came up with this idea. First thought, maybe maybe things were drug that doesn't prove anything. Just just because some somebody 100 years ago, had the same or maybe you know, actually pushing a couple hundred years now had the same. Concern or theory on what was going on? That's not, he didn't grab the wine. Didn't I say? What was interesting to me about this though, is that it to me, it looks like he didn't partake of anything.

53:08 It looks to me, like he did not take of the Bread and Wine because if he had, he wouldn't have had to steal it to see if it was drugged or not, he would have claimed, he had it, and he knew it was drugged because he partook of it. And yet so I mean it's pretty clear to me that in this account he did not partake of the he did not partake of the wine. The proponents of the Psychedelic Theory here are claiming he did and that's he he said he had the dumb evil and could not talk. Well that's us. That's a side effect of our potential side effect of using these things. So that's proof that that he did. Well that doesn't add up. In fact, the fact that he claims that he had the dumb evil and could not talk to To me indicates that there was something going on and he was being spiritually barred from interrupting or Mary. No, messing with the, with the events going on that night, which is again more sign of an actual spiritual experience happening.

54:11 Not just some kind of the drug war G as he's trying to as this Jasper. Mosque, tried to portray it. You know, something else to they got me in as you were reading that account. You have to remember also that there's a large portion of society during that time that were kind of suspicious of secret societies. Right there was a big thing going on with, you know, Mason's. They, you know, a lot of folks were were into the Mason Masonic conspiracy going on. At that point, they they'd been, you know, trying to, you know, pin murders on the Masons and everything else at that point and so when he gives his account with and they put blankets over the windows and they shut the doors and if you're familiar with the time in which Joseph Smith is living and performing his work in the restoration and you're familiar with with the social Oh, inclinations of the time you can see a lot of these arguments start to float to the surface based on what's happening in the Zeitgeist so to speak.

55:32 Oh yeah. And trying to cover the you know, trying to keep these things. Private is no indication of anything nefarious either. It just it's just a desire to keep them private. There's a reason why temples aren't made of glass, right? Sacred things have always been intended to be kept private and we're not supposed to cast our Pearls Before Swine. So a desire to keep things private for people like this guy from interloping and and drawing the wrong conclusions because of his own clearly you know, he went into that with a desire to prove or to out what was going on. He didn't he was not there to believe he was there to to expose in his own mind. So you know a desire to keep sacred things. It is, that's very natural.

56:22 I don't think anybody would want to have a personal, you know, spiritual experience out in broad daylight with a bunch of people laughing and mocking. Yeah, yeah. No. But that's, yeah, that's a good point. But it doesn't make for a sexy story if it's not secret. Yeah. Yeah. And who knows they? Who knows the reliability of that account anyways, right, right. Because you could tell you he wasn't All towards Joseph Smith at whatsoever or the morning. So so so let's do you have any other anything else you want to take apart right there? You know, there might be some better evidences, but you know, these are these are this is, this is the arguments from the Sunstone Symposium that came out. This is, you know, the scholars trying to find evidence of plant medicine and the restoration.

57:18 This is this is the best that they came up with at least at that time. So I and I don't I didn't again not a single one of these things is compelling to me in the slightest and most of them are actually, pretty, pretty Being of the exact opposite of the argument, they're trying to make. So do we have anything on the other side that we could point to as evidence that Joseph didn't use psychedelics? Well, I think a lot of these already, kind of, like I mentioned already are pretty self contained evidences that, that they weren't like Kirtland.

57:58 Like the impossibility of being able to properly dose that many people to have a shared experience. It's just not feasible. The idea that, you know, only maybe some of you dressed up as Christ, okay. Maybe somebody did. But not everybody did have a spiritual experience. So if most of the rooms high and Joseph says, oh, that's Moses and everybody looks like okay that must be Moses because they're high. Well, the person is not high, it's gonna be like wait that's not Moses. I know who that. That's just so old. So on, so dressed up for something a cough and we would have heard those accounts as well. So the honestly the best, I think some of the best evidence that Joseph Smith did not use a theologians is actually contained in these arguments already that we've kind of already discussed, but I think one other important One is to understand, Joseph Smith was very Progressive as, in a proper term of the term in the proper use of the term meaning he was, he was looking for truth and he was open to finding truth, wherever wherever it.

59:05 Maybe he wasn't afraid of something, just because it was culturally taboo, clearly. And so, and we know that Joseph Smith taught many things that were that were very heretical. To the Christianity and the common culture at the time. And so knowing that, I mean, first of all, there's no reason for Joseph Smith to have hiddenness in my opinion. In fact, it would have been very easy to incorporate it into his Theology and especially at the very least into some of the symbology. Like, if you look at some early Christian work, there's actually some very interesting evidence that early Christians did use it.

59:49 Engines. You can see the Amanita mushroom depicted an early, Christian art in a way that's well pretty bizarre. Like the artist must have been on something when they when they created that and so you know, where is the sacred mushroom? Adorning the temple or hidden in the in the in the symbology of the temple? It's not there. Where's the? Where's the hidden in mushroom in in the revelations and it's Out there, and I don't, if Joseph Smith was having these extra these experiences with the aid of the theologians. I don't think he would have shied away from from, well, teaching that and incorporating that into the religion.

1:00:34 And the fact that he didn't is also in my opinion, really strong evidence that there was nothing there. Yeah, I we forget that. Joseph Smith is upsetting a lot of norms in Victorian society. Right. I mean, a man can have more than one wife that's pretty, that's pretty salacious stuff. And, well, it can be salacious now, but it was really salacious in the 1800 s, right? This idea of people coming together and and living and working together and, you know, trying to build a almost, a counterculture was again on the fringes of society.

1:01:19 T at best. Yeah, certain well, he wasn't the first to, to think about, you know, a community like that but he was he was definitely the most successful. And and I agree with you that if, if this was something that that was Central to him, gaining Revelation to his Visions, I think he would have made it. No, Yeah, at least to an inner circle and you'd at least signs of it. And it's just, it's not there, you know? And it's not just the not just plural marriage, you've also got to me the that's not that revolutionary. What was truly? I think revolutionary about Joseph Smith's teachings in the Revelation that really that even to this day In my opinion is the biggest Gulf between us and Christians. Is this idea that that God once was a man like we are and that we have the ability to become like God that we are literally The Offspring of God, that is still to this day completely unacceptable in modern Christian society and culture that can they see that as bad as, you know, new ageism and and and occultism.

1:02:34 I'm and devil worship re it's, it's a cardinal sin to Christianity as a whole. So, to dare to is, to dare to preach a theology that man can become gods. But be too timid to to talk about some beneficial plants that God created, that might help you have a relationship with God. I don't, I don't see it. I don't know why he wouldn't have taught and shared. It just doesn't make any sense. Absolutely. So real quick without naming individual names. Are there certain groups that are espousing this Doctrine, more than others? Is this just, you know, secular Scholars who were who's looking too.

1:03:26 I don't know, discredit the restoration or our who are are there like faithful members or I, you know, I use faithful in quotations here but are there faithful adherents to the the restoration who are trying to use these things. And public about it. Yeah, I don't know about being public per se, but I do know and again, I don't want to name names, but I am aware of people that are promoting these things in a way that I'm really that. I'm personally kind of uncomfortable with okay. And so, yeah, okay, so let's let's do the whole know them by their fruit trick here, right?

1:04:14 That that litmus test yeah, in the folks that you're aware of that are espousing this heavily What has been some of the the fruit of that the outgrowth? A large part of it has been, ultimately, well, long term has been a denial of the restoration where, you know, not a complete outright rejection but more of this idea that, you know, Joseph Smith restoration, sure, maybe just Smith was an ascended one, like christ-like Buddha, like, like I can't move the Indian one but you know what I mean?

1:04:57 He's just a, he was just an ascended master and and therefore the Restoration, you can, you can take it or leave it. It's just one of the, many ways ways to God. And so, that's, that's been ultimately, well, from a faith perspective. That's the most damaging. And that's one of my biggest concerns, and the second one is a destruction of family and relationships too. I think that well the whole argument here the very beginning from that. First example of let's see that was partly Pratt.

1:05:38 He was concerned because he said these manifestations they were disgusting rather than edifying. And that's to me, that that is the fruit. Is it really edifying? Does it make you a better father? Does it make your families come together? Do you love your brothers and sisters? More are your family relationships improving or our does it break them apart? Does it isolate? You does it separate you from the people who love and care about you? And, I mean, you might argue that well, they're being judgmental, I know in some of these cases that's not the case. It's not people being judgmental. Mental. It's the other way around a lot. And that's the argument you get with a lot of the concerns with homosexuality and some of these other sexuality issues right? Is that, and there are just because there are some cases of people doing some really terrible things when they find it.

1:06:31 You know, Sun comes out of the closet says he's gay and then the father you know banishes them and never speaks to him again and cut them out. As like there are terrible situations where that kind of thing does happen and That's tragic. But sometimes sometimes people get into things that aren't good for them and there's a certain amount of maybe guilt or shame associated with that guilt and shame attached to that, and it causes people to withdraw from people of their own volition, and maybe they perceive it as, as being persecuted, but the human nobody's ever wrong. The human mind is, is expert at passing the buck of disability and blaming others. We never see ourselves as the bad guy in our life story. Nobody does.

1:07:21 And so, but in a from an objective view, I've seen people that this has led to the destruction of family, rather than a notification of family separation from family rather than a strengthening of the family. And so, that's clearly not edifying. And, you know, By that fruit. I can I have a concern? I can see that. There's a problem there. Absolutely yet. And, and with all these things, right, whether it's again the the who killed Joseph Smith film or now this let's just stop for a second.

1:08:05 Take a deep breath, don't get excited. And let's look at what these ideas are producing because Is that will tell you. What what's really going on? That tells the story ideas are fun, ideas are exciting but it's the the fruit that they bear, that tells the story, if that is of god or not. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I guess one another angle to this whole thing to in my opinion is, if you really buy into this, it kind of sets you up to potentially fail in other ways.

1:08:48 In my own life, I have had, you know, I have had some positive powerful experiences with plant medicine, but long before that I had had many more powerful spiritual experiences in the church, in temples. or sizing priesthood, and even through my own, You know, receiving, you know, spiritual manifestations in times of need in my own life. These you don't need some kind of a plant medicine to be able to have this kind of relationship with God and the other, the other end, the other tail. The other end of the stick is if Joseph Smith was using plant medicine, then it kind of creates this implication, then that in order to have spiritual experiences, in order to have Revelations, then you're kind of end up. Well, I need this then I have I have to pursue this, I have time dependent on some kind of the substance now to have a life full of Miracles and, and spiritual experiences and that's just not the case either.

1:09:58 Yeah, and I think we sell ourselves short as well. If we think that it takes a plan to do that, right? We sell ourselves short, we sell our God short, that, that God's just not powerful enough to Get through to US unless we have partaken of some psycho, you know, psychosomatic drug that lowers our inhibitions right. We've put God into a box which is something that I know. I certainly try not to do because He's omnipotent, right? I mean, he can do whatever it is he needs to do. And so I'm with you I think for some folks it's It can be beneficial.

1:10:43 Like, like the guy I told you about earlier who was really suffering, right? I did see him come through that experience a changed, man, but that's a lot different than trying to take a shortcut to Joseph's experiences. It just doesn't make any sense. It's a lot like a story that is going to be a bad analogy but I'll give her a whirl. It's like a few years back. I heard I heard a couple of well I shouldn't say I heard I know for a fact there were a couple of kids at BYU who just so they could have marital relations, went to Vegas, got married. Did the deed and then got it annulled the same weekend, right?

1:11:38 And to me, this idea of taking plant medicine to have that to have a experience with God as a lot like going to Vegas for the weekend, right? It just seems to cheapen it a little bit, for sure. Yeah, well and I guess I, you know, another interesting thing too is where If this was the case where does that lead the restoration? Because you know, Joseph Smith, after Joseph Smith martyrdom, what happened. And then did Brigham carry on these secrets somehow and John Taylor and some of these some of the other leaders of the church doing the stuff in secret.

1:12:24 And if so why was there a gradual decline in these kinds of manifestations in the church? I mean, I mean, it's pretty clear to me and this is this is what led me into fundamentalism was that, you know, the church today is it. Well, the LDS church today is very different from the LDS church, as it was founded. We should be very careful for our next few words here. Justin, I do not want Rusty, get any ideas Rusty Russell. I'm Nelson. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I don't think we need to worry about that but sure, unless, unless there's a unless there's a, some sort of a pharmaceutical investment involved. But yeah.

1:13:15 So the that difference, that contrast, when I really looked into the and I started ask myself, well, what's changed what's different now than from then. I mean you can't really argue that planet medicine, change that it was there. And now it's not and that's why it's different. It doesn't That doesn't really fit, there's no gradual explanation for how that would have happened. But what you do see is people that gradually lose faith and willingness to, to live the gospel, having a desire to live the gospel and live, all the all the restoration and that's a very natural pattern that we see throughout history is that That kind of gradual decline.

1:14:05 And you know, I mean even that gradual decline to happen within our own country where we're at the point. Now of I think I'm on the verge of kind of a Romans 1 judgment in this nation because we have gradually abandoned our religion, Our God, and our way, our way of life of Living God's Commandments, and that creates a situation. Now, where we were in the kind of political messages that were in and we're seeing Society, collapse, and Decay and underneath us, and I, you know, it'd be it'd be nice if there was a simple solution, it was like, okay, well, George Washington was on psychedelics and and we're not today, and that's why it's different, but I don't think the real answers that simple and there were many power.

1:14:57 For experiences that that members have that leadership in the church had after Joseph Smith passed away. And if it was at the agents, how do you, how do you explain that? How do you explain The continued, at least, for a while they continued outpourings of spirit. I mean, you had drawn the other day, talking about the, the Transfiguration of Brigham Young, right again. So what Brigham Young toast, everybody where does where does that end and how did, how do you explain? The gradual loss of the gifts of the Spirit, if the gifts of the Spirit are merely, something you take.

1:15:39 It's just a magic pill, right? And also, you ask, you know, where does it end? Well, I think ultimately ends with, if this sort of narrative catches, hold it ends with the the restoration, really being just another idea that's kind of tossed to the side as one man's. Psychedelic trip. I mean, that's that's ultimately where it goes. You, you may have those who hold on but that's it. Or here's, you know the other scarier part is people who who go out and like we were just talking really dive in deep and, you know, try to replicate To the best of their estimation, what Joseph did and that to me, scares me worse than anything else. And and I would caution very, very, very strongly against that.

1:16:42 Don't don't take my word for it. Go go read a book by Tom O'Neill called chaos, which talks a lot about, you know, how certain agencies within the government used psychedelics as well. Nip. Ulation tools, right? I mean, it's a frightening Prospect. And that's why when you called me about it, it rattled my cage little bit. Oh yeah, for sure. And I mean like I was saying there's really there's no need of these things. For the, for the gospel to live, the gospel to have, all the blessings of the Gospel to receive the gifts of the Spirit. And so, I think yeah I think that what were this leads in my perspective?

1:17:47 I mean you certainly I think it does lead. It leads to fragmentation you're going to have people rise up with Charisma and you know you're going to have Cults of personality and things like that that are going to wreak havoc. But I think you're also looking at like a gradual loss of faith If you don't need ordinances, if you don't need Commandments and laws, if you don't need order to receive a relationship with God, if you don't have to work for it then, well, I mean, the natural human condition is to is to take the easy route is to take the easy Road. And if there's shortcuts our human nature, we're all guilty of that of, you know, we all want shortcuts. It's not good for us, but that's what we want. I even when Adam was expelled from the garden, he's cursed to have to till the ground to labor by the sweat of his brow. And, you know, that sounds like a curse, but the garden was a shortcut, but it was necessary for his growth. It was, and it's necessary for our growth to do hard things. And some of those hard things are having faith, and working our relationship with God, to have the kind of relationship. Ation ship and experiences and see the see those kinds of gifts of the Spirit manifest.

1:19:16 And, you know, this is this a little bit of a personal aside but I had a family member passed away, a nephew not that long ago and it was very tragic and troubling for the family. And and I, you know, I haven't had that kind of experience with any of my own children. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily, I can't relate, but I can imagine how Difficult and hard. That could be. And that's the kind of situation that people do look for shortcuts generally. Speaking they look to alcohol or, you know, drug abuse or you know, people will disconnect from relationships and family. Things can fall apart in the events of tragedy, but it doesn't have to.

1:20:00 It can also be an opportunity for for growth and strength and a better opportunity to grow closer to God. And that's what I've seen in my own, my family is a, you know, no need of any kind of enhancements. My I've seen my my nephew's family really come together and have had many powerful spiritual Witnesses and experiences that have drawn them closer to God closer to their Savior and And I think that's what we're here for is to is to do the hard things.

1:20:44 I mean that's what that's what Christ had to do. You know Christ asked even Christ asked if there's another way that this is. This cup can pass please. But at some point we kind of have to do hard things and one of those hard things is is having faith is believing in God's promises and being faithful to the things that God's asked us asked of us. And in my life, my family's life. We've seen many powerful Miracles and things like that that come about through. Doing the hard things and with time receiving, you know, beautiful rewards, you know harvesting, what was sewed.

1:21:33 And so yeah, not only just the destruction of Faith. It's is sort of robbing us of it can, it can be something that robs us of the the beauty and accomplishment of having Powerful spiritual experiences that we have worked for that. We put in the effort and the sacrifice is for. And if that's another thing that's that's in my opinion, somewhat tragic if that's where somebody ends up. Yeah. Yeah as a guy who screwed around with a lot of different substances before I you know, accepted the gospel There is no substitute.

1:22:23 Four. For a coherent spiritual experience. One in which you can't walk away from it saying, well maybe it was something I ate or drank. Where you have to say. Oh, that was real. That was real. And those are the kind of experiences that we all have to work for. We all have to put ourselves in that. In that right frame of mind. And in that correct way of living to achieve, but in some ways I think that's what makes those experiences so much sweeter and so much more of a reward because in that process we've learned that, okay?

1:23:23 If if I do, what God asked me to do, if I walk up to my Covenants, If I put in the time, if I'm on my knees asking for help, he's going to respond and I don't have to rely on a substance to get me there. I think I think that I think by relying on a substance to get you there, kind of cheapens it a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Well, and just the whole idea that opposition in life, is a blessing, really, it's a, it's a gift.

1:24:04 And so if you, if you can just take a pill and be happy, is it happiness? Can you recognize it as happiness? As opposed to dealing with struggles in Life and Overcoming them and finding happiness in enjoy and having over overcome adversity. Absolutely. Absolutely. I can speak from sad experience that If you're relying on any substance to just get you through, that's not a great place to be. It's not a great place to be.

1:24:46 so, all right. What do you think, man? yeah, well I guess yeah, I guess I just would like to, you know, my own my own testimony is that God is there and he's there, whether we see him or we don't, he's Christ, is a part of our Lives, whether we recognize that or not and If if a plant medicine can help you get a certain perspective at a certain point in time to help, you see that?

1:25:29 I'm not I don't think that necessarily a bad thing, but ultimately, we need to be able to bring that into our Waking Life. Our every moment of our being in existence and recognizing those Miracles, recognizing that presence having that relationship in that connection. And so, I mean, if there's people out there that are, you know, interested in these things, Irish caution a lot of caution and I think content matters a lot and you really would need. I think you need to look at your own heart and and decide if, if you're interested in this because you're looking for a shortcut because there's something there's something hard that you're trying to avoid or or if if this is something that really would be beneficial.

1:26:23 But most of all these narratives in these stories that are going out about, this are absolutely destructive because it robs people of Believing these stories and narratives. Rob's you of, like I said, Rob's you of that testimony that you can have these things without it and also robs you of of that the joy and sweetness of having achieved something. And most of all, I think it gradually leads. If it, he gradually is leading to a state of disbelief in the restoration and And real truth. And that's, that's really tragic. And that's what concerns me.

1:27:09 The most is that The leaving these narratives around it, our faith destroying that much is absolutely true. Whether or not the medicine itself is, or isn't absolutely these stories. And these narratives are destructive to our faith and destructive to and contrary to the truth. And well it's contrary to the truth which is always destructive to Faith and testimony. And there's no, there's no positive to that. There's no good fruit that can. Come from that. Absolutely. Yeah, I would just I'm like, you, I would instruct people to be very cautious, be very cautious that you even in listening to some of this stuff, absolutely here.

1:27:59 The argument, right? I'm a big believer in the First Amendment, right to freedom of speech. Say what you have on your mind. But that doesn't mean you have to believe everything that's put out there, do your own research, look at it, look at it with a critical eye, and then make your decisions. But at least give Joseph the benefit of the doubt that he was, who he said he was, and he experienced what he said, he experienced. And the fruit of those things, I think bear testimony that Joseph experienced what he said, he experienced, and he was who he said he was. So, all right, Justin.

1:28:48 This was good, man. Thanks for coming on again. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been good. All right. Bye everybody.