Episode #37: Repelling The Latest Attacks On Joseph Smith & The First Vision W/Justin Francom

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So there are a ton of things
I've learned by doing this

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podcast.
The one thing that I learned

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that I never saw coming was just
to what lengths people are

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willing to go to discredit
Joseph Smith and other early LDS

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church leaders.
See this very same tactic, it

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was used before to discredit the
founding fathers of the United

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States in order to remake the
country into something.

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It was never supposed to be.
Well, as I said earlier, now the

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same tactic is creeping into Mm,
discredit the founder.

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Then Mormonism can be turned
into something else entirely.

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It was brought to my attention
by my friend Justin frankcom

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that the newest effort regards
Joseph Smith in the first

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Vision, the charge that is being
made by those seeking to

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undermine the foundations of the
restored gospel.

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Is that Joseph?
First Vision was not of heavenly

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origin but was instead his
experiences while on

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hallucinogens now as
Preposterous as the sounds

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people are buying into it in the
movement is growing.

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So on this episode just and I
break down this Theory.

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And look at what its proponents
Trot out as evidence.

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I'm sure that you'll come up to
it with the same conclusion that

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Justin and I have that the idea
that Joseph's First Vision was

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the result of quote, a trip is
complete nonsense and the

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accounts they use as evidence do
not pass scrutiny.

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My hope is that by the end of
this podcast, you'll be armed

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with the facts and be able to
refute this claim when you

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encounter it.
And that's next on this episode

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Welcome back to the Mormon
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Well Justin, have you been big
guy?

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I've been great.
How's life treating?

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You?
It's a banana.

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Venture out here.
Trying to get a kind of the

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homestead started out in
Missouri.

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I was.
So what would all how long ago

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did you make that move?
I'll it was probably earlier

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this spring late summer or early
summer, probably early summer.

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Yeah, yeah, I was a little bit
late to get a garden going.

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Unfortunately, you know, I
imagine so real quick.

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What do you think of humidity?
I love it.

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I sorta Mission South Korea, and
it's very humid there, and it's

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the climate's very similar and I
actually love the climate.

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I like it getting gets hot but
not too hot.

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It gets cold.
Not too cold.

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And the humidity is.
I love it manageable.

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I remember when I went to
Maryland and where we were

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living in Maryland, we were on
the Delmarva Peninsula, right

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between the Atlantic and the
Chesapeake, and man, I could

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tell you what, I remember,
getting off the plane thinking,

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I am drowning on dry land.
It was just, it was so.

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So humid took me forever to get
used to it.

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But well, I brought you came on
for a very specific purpose,

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right?
And and this is unlike, I think

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any conversation anyone's done
with in Mormonism so far and

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we're going to start by asking
the question.

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Did Joseph Smith and I giggle
even saying it because it's one

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of those things I'm like I can't
believe I'm saying this out

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loud, right?
The things that I found I've had

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to do sometimes and say just for
me and this is one of them.

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There's a lot of Internet
chatter right now.

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There's a lot of stuff on the
blogosphere.

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You know that talks about kind
of a latest proponents of those

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folks who maybe don't Want to
Discount.

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Joseph saw something but at the
same time want to rationalize it

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away their latest argument is is
that Joseph Smith was using

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psychedelics.
Most likely mushrooms to have

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the first Vision.
I've read some other things

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since you first brought this up
to me, where there's even some

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people who say, oh, all that
stuff in Kirtland, that was a

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mass hallucination.
You know, they were spiking the

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Wine with psilocybin and all
these other things.

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And so naturally, when you
brought this up to me, I'm like,

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all right, here's another one.
I'm going to have to go in and

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try to deconstruct because if
you take out the underpinnings

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of Joseph's first vision and
it's not what he purported it to

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be.
Well then you've kind of taken

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out the whole underpinnings to
the Restoration movement.

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You know what I mean?
Yeah, I can understand that

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perspective.
Absolutely.

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And I've got some serious
concerns because I brought this

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issue to you, right?
Because I told you that I've got

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some concerns.
This is becoming a topic that's

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being becoming more widespread.
And I have some concerns about

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the way it's being presented.
And and frankly, I mean, I'm not

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the greatest historian, I'm more
of a philosopher Theologian

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type.
And so, I don't you know as far

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as like arguing historic minut
details as not really my thing

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but I think II do have an
awareness of of well critical

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thinking and looking at
motivations and reasons why Let

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me ask you this you around.
Yeah, let me ask you this.

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You said that you were seeing
some things in conjunction with

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this.
That was really concerning you.

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What are those things?
Well I just so just to be

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completely open and honest here.
I have experience with some of

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these theologians and I'm
actually not inherently opposed

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to these types of plant
medicines so too.

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Speak.
But I am very concerned about

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rewriting history and trying to
shoehorn things in that are

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inaccurate.
I Believe In Truth Above All

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Else.
And so, when I see well, first

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of all, from from a historical
perspective when I see people

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trying to manipulate a story
change history, that that kind

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of rubs me wrong, but it's
actually more than that.

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Because I've also seen people
that get involved in some of Is

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things that take a very negative
turn in the gospel.

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It does seem to be.
I don't think it's inherently a

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problem, but it does seem to be
something that leads people away

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from the gospel in the
restoration, or it can if it's

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not in the proper context.
And that's, that's my greatest

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concern.
Is that this is being promoted

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as an alternative and that it's
going to lead people that some

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of these, some of these lives
can lead people to vaults

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understandings.
And ideas and perceptions of the

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history and authenticity of the
restoration.

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Right?
Right.

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No, I think that's that's well
said because look if If you were

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taking any of these things with
this idea of it will just by its

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very nature, bring you closer to
deity.

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I'm not sure that's the right
mindset to be going in with

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that, right?
I mean and and that that scares

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me greatly.
The other thing that scares me

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about this is what I alluded to
here, just a few seconds ago,

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which is I feel like it's
another.

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Another tactic of taking out the
legs from under the movement

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that Joseph Smith started the
restored gospel, right?

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We the first time I had you on,
it was about Justin Griffin and

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the, the you know who killed
Joseph, Smith movie, right, and

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trying to take out Brigham's
legs and I think this is just

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another another effort in that
same vein.

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Wayne to, to take the gospels
Foundation out from under it.

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Well, absolutely.
And it's that many patient of

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History.
You know, when you have People

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like well when you have
Broussard McConkey talking

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about, I'm not going to eat when
you have a.

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Yeah.
Bruce are McConkey talking about

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you know rewriting the history
and Adam God wasn't something

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that Brigham Young taught
changing that for whatever

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whatever your intentions are it
create lying about the history

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of misrepresenting the history,
ultimately leads to the truth

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will come out and it leads to a
crisis of faith for a lot of

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people when and it's just it.
Why go down that road.

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If it's unnecessary, if it's not
factual, if it's not what was

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really going on and you know,
but ironically it has been as

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I've gone into it and as I
looked at the history with that

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question in mind, and as I've
listened to some of these

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Arguments for it, it's actually
convinced me that I had this

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point.
I am I'm pretty much Neo 99.9

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percent positive that that was
not the case and that is not the

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History of the restoration, it
wasn't a part of it.

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So let's break down the argument
first that, that the those who

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seek to rewrite history use,
right?

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What, what do they use as an
argument that this is what he

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did.
Well, you know, actually you

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know if you don't mind if I took
a step back from that shirt real

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quick first, I think I like to
look at the motivations I mean

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why what would the argument be
for why you would want to insert

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this into the history?
Because I think that's really

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what I mean.
I think some people honestly are

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looking for truth and some
people believe are starting to

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believe this because they think
the evidence The lines that way.

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But the people promoting it, I
don't believe necessarily that.

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That's their intent is that
they're seeking truth.

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I, you know, I think there's a
few different motivations here

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and one of the most obvious is
the denial of the restoration,

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obviously, and a lot of writers
non-lds writers are talking

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about this because for them this
is a way to explain the

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restoration and parts of the
restoration that are pretty

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unexplainable.
Like how did This kid from New

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York crate.
You know, this greatest American

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religion and they need an
explanation for that they need.

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You know, they need an atheistic
rational explanation.

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And if it was a theage ins, that
explained the Visions than the

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and all the things that that
Miracles, that things that

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people experience in the
restoration and that Batson out

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for them to discredit everything
entirely.

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So I think you've got that kind.
The motivation.

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And now another motivation
though is some of these people

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are promoting these ideas that
still at least for now claim to

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be faithful members of the
restored gospel.

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And I think for them, it's
actually the idea here is

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they're pulling Joseph Smith
down to a more equal footing

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with themselves.
If it was just if Joseph Smith

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00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:07,000
wasn't special other than he
just found This this medicine

227
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,900
that can connect him with God,
then we'll then they can do the

228
00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:13,700
same and if they connect to that
medicine and they have different

229
00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:16,400
ideas.
That's just as valid, there's no

230
00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:21,400
power or authority in Joseph
Smith other than what they can

231
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,000
just take themselves, what they
can achieve themselves.

232
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,600
So, I think another aspect
aspect of that is kind of

233
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:31,600
pulling Joseph Smith down not
necessarily to discredit him,

234
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:36,200
but just to allow themselves to
have, Equal footing without

235
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,500
maybe necessarily having the
equal call or response, you

236
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:44,800
know, calling or responsibility
from God to you know, restore

237
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,400
truths.
And you know the final one and

238
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this is the one that concerns me
the most is that I think it can

239
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:58,100
be used as a justification for
people.

240
00:14:58,100 --> 00:15:02,900
They're looking for a shortcut
to God and if you can connect to

241
00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:06,000
God through some medicine and
that's it, there's no no

242
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,800
ordinances required.
No Commandments, no nothing.

243
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,600
You just can take some medicine
and wow.

244
00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:15,700
Now you're you're with God, then
you know, in my opinion, that's

245
00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:17,400
that's what I would call.
A shortcut.

246
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,000
It's an easier path.
You don't have to sacrifice

247
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,600
anything.
You don't have to conform to

248
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,100
anything that you don't want to,
you can make your own reality

249
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,500
and as a shortcut, that's,
that's kind of my biggest

250
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:33,600
concern here, is that people are
looking at this as a, that by

251
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,200
promoting this idea, it creates
a shortcut.

252
00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:42,300
So and there's so many ways that
that can go wrong, right?

253
00:15:42,300 --> 00:15:47,000
I'm just sitting here off the
top of my head, you know, if

254
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:54,200
you're looking for a shortcut to
try to have a deeper connection

255
00:15:54,400 --> 00:16:00,200
with the Savior or your heavenly
father, there are no shortcuts.

256
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,600
I mean it doesn't really work
like that.

257
00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:08,800
You have like any relationship
you have to put in the time you

258
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:14,100
got to put in the effort and
even for the most seasoned,

259
00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:21,400
Adherent to the restoration.
That's an ongoing process,

260
00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:26,700
right?
And and, and part of living, the

261
00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:34,100
gospel is the journey, right
learning how to communicate the

262
00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:37,300
other problem I have or the
concern I have.

263
00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:43,100
Is that with when people want to
take that kind of shortcut, I

264
00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:48,800
worry that they could be
susceptible in that state to

265
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:55,100
influences that may not
necessarily be from, from a good

266
00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:57,200
source, right?
Not coming from our cattle,

267
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:02,900
Kevin coming from the adversary.
I worry about that entirely.

268
00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:05,800
Well, I think, yeah.
And that's very common in a lot

269
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,099
of the, any kind of New Age
movement, right?

270
00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:13,700
It's the whole idea of the New
Age movement is that we are God.

271
00:17:14,099 --> 00:17:17,099
And therefore, you know, we
there is no other God.

272
00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:19,400
We are God, we create the Law of
Attraction.

273
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,000
We don't need to ask God, we
don't have to be obedient to

274
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,700
God's laws and Commandments.
We can we can create our own

275
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:29,500
reality.
And while there is certain

276
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:33,800
truths to that the way, it's
gone about buy a new age.

277
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,700
It's a replacement, it's a
shortcut.

278
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:42,800
You don't have to Worship or no,
God, you can have these things

279
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,400
without it and that's, that's
very, very dangerous.

280
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,400
What could go wrong with
something like that?

281
00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:57,700
Well, you know what, you see
here is different stories and

282
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:02,500
interpretations of experiences
that when people have people

283
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:08,100
have under psychoactive
substances, you know, a lot of

284
00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:12,200
the If you're really, if
everybody was always connecting

285
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,900
to God the right way every time
then I think everybody would

286
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:18,300
come out with the same message,
everybody would get the same

287
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:22,100
kind of ideas, the same kind of
Revelations, but we can, we can

288
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:28,800
clearly see that's not the case.
So it is opening yourself up to

289
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:33,700
Diverse spirits.
And all, we already know that

290
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,900
those aren't all of all from
God.

291
00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:40,300
And you know, what?
I also think is like, when you

292
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:43,200
have, well, we already know
that, you know, blessings are

293
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:49,600
predicated upon laws And if you
don't have to obey God's will

294
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:52,700
but if you can get the things
you want in your life, through

295
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,800
exerting your own will without
you know, if you could find

296
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,500
happiness and contentment
through exerting your own will

297
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:03,700
then we don't need God.
And as somebody who believes in

298
00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:06,700
God and believes, God is our
father and gives us these things

299
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,700
to gives us Commandments for our
own benefit.

300
00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:13,400
That's very dangerous.
Because now you can it's the lie

301
00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:17,400
it's the lie that you believe
that's That's that gets you.

302
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:23,400
It's not the, it's not the, the
maybe even the truth that you

303
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:25,700
don't understand, or don't
comprehend yet.

304
00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:29,800
Right.
Look, I want to make it clear

305
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,100
here.
I don't have an axe to grind as

306
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:34,800
far as what people do with their
own Consciousness.

307
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:38,600
It's not something I would do.
However, I have seen a lot of

308
00:19:38,608 --> 00:19:41,200
research coming out about
veterans being helped

309
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,900
tremendously by the use of plant
medicine, so if it helps someone

310
00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:50,300
then great, but I don't think it
should be used as a shortcut or

311
00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:53,600
substitute to experience the
atonement working on a person's

312
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,400
behalf or experiencing the
atonement and Their own lives.

313
00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:58,800
Does that make sense?
Justin.

314
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,700
Yeah, I think that's very a
valid way of looking at that or

315
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:08,100
an invalid approach and yeah, I
think that's pretty fair.

316
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,500
But again, my concern is is that
yeah, shortcuts.

317
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:14,400
And that's probably my biggest
concern.

318
00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:16,200
I first kind of became aware of
this.

319
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,100
I can't seem to find.
I was reviewing it just the

320
00:20:19,100 --> 00:20:22,400
other day.
That there's a more of a

321
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:28,600
academic paper, put out about
Joseph Smith and playing the

322
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:30,400
Joseph Smith was using
psychedelics.

323
00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,800
It wasn't really well thought
out.

324
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,200
It was more of a my opinion.
It's more of a hit piece.

325
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,900
If somebody from the outside of
the church who is just trying to

326
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,500
explain the Mormon phenomena.
But more recently a little bit

327
00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:47,900
more recently in 2017, there was
a sun stone Symposium where you

328
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:51,700
had a couple presenters talking
about this idea that Joseph

329
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:57,600
Smith was basically drugging the
Mormons and that's We're all

330
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,100
these revelatory experiences
came from and how I started

331
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:04,800
researching it and then it was
pretty apparent that at least to

332
00:21:04,808 --> 00:21:06,900
me that that's definitely not
the case.

333
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:10,100
And it's concerning to me that
it's being promoted because

334
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,600
well, especially because people
who have Who have that are

335
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,200
presenting these ideas, some of
them know better you know

336
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:22,000
especially if their experience
with some of these plant

337
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,800
medicines they really should
know better and if you don't

338
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,200
have experience yourself you
might not even realize that.

339
00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:31,300
So I guess that's another reason
I felt like I wanted to discuss

340
00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:35,500
this topic was because I feel
like I'm coming from a place of

341
00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:38,900
neutrality.
As far as whether or not Joseph

342
00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:45,300
Smith was using any substances.
And and possibly even favorable

343
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:50,000
towards the idea and yet the
research that I've done and the

344
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,300
arguments that I've looked at,
just don't hold any water.

345
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:59,000
So what's what are the arguments
they put forth in that?

346
00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:02,000
Hey Joseph was on shrooms,
right?

347
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,700
I mean as I've read through it,
that seems to be what they're

348
00:22:06,700 --> 00:22:09,400
saying, right?
Is that he was using psychedelic

349
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,900
substances to have psychedelic
experiences.

350
00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:17,500
And one of them, he just
happened to tap into that he was

351
00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:22,500
able to start a new religion.
Yeah yeah exactly.

352
00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:28,500
So I'm going to borrow from some
of their research because like I

353
00:22:28,500 --> 00:22:31,900
said I'm not a not the most
minut scholar when it comes to

354
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:35,300
some of these details and they
brought up some of the best

355
00:22:35,300 --> 00:22:37,800
evidence they could find in
favor of this idea.

356
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,600
And frankly it really doesn't
hold a lot of water.

357
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:47,400
So this first one here is a
quote from parley Pete Pratt And

358
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,800
he says, as I went forth among
the different branches, some

359
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,000
very strange spiritual
operations were manifested,

360
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:56,500
which were disgusting rather
than edifying.

361
00:22:57,100 --> 00:23:00,800
Some persons would seem to Swoon
Sway and make unseemly gestures

362
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,500
or be drawn or disfigured in
their countenances.

363
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,600
Others would fall into xsj
ecstasies and be drawn into

364
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,400
contortions cramps.
Fits excetera others would seem

365
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,400
to have visions and Revelations,
which were not edifying and

366
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,100
which were not congenial.
Niall to the doctrine and spirit

367
00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:22,000
of the Gospel, in short, a false
and lying Spirits seem to be

368
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,600
creeping into the church which
are right there.

369
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,500
I think that's a, that's a great
warning sign that about even

370
00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:32,200
without the use of intelligence.
But they go on and say it will

371
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,100
probably fight went on to say
feeling our weaknesses and

372
00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:39,100
inexperience, unless we should
error in judgment, concerning

373
00:23:39,100 --> 00:23:41,600
the spiritual phenomenon,
myself, John Murdoch, and

374
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,400
several other Elders went to
Joseph Smith and asked him to

375
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,000
inquire of the Lord concerning
these Spirits or And the

376
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,100
stations and the argument or the
implication here is that feeling

377
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:55,400
our weaknesses and inexperience?
The implication is that they

378
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,500
were getting high on shrooms or
something and not having a lot

379
00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:04,100
of experience with they were
having these weird reactions and

380
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:09,900
so they went to Joseph Smith for
for some kind of consultation

381
00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:12,800
because he's the master of these
things, right?

382
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:16,300
And and I mean just I don't
know.

383
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:19,400
I I personally even just in that
quote itself, I don't see it.

384
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,800
It sounds the exact opposite to
me for one thing.

385
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,600
You kind of would have to assume
that this was widespread and

386
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,200
that everybody knew about this
and was doing it in that case if

387
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:35,000
especially if they are going to
Joseph Smith for instruction on

388
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,700
these matters, that would imply
that this was well-known using

389
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,300
plant medicines and stuff for
mushrooms.

390
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,900
And if that were the case, there
would be absolutely be a A lot

391
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:51,000
more significant evidence of
that and writings about that.

392
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,900
Then you know, then an
implication here of feeling our

393
00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:57,900
weaknesses and inexperience
being oh well, there you go,

394
00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:01,600
that's it.
That's proof that it was

395
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,100
mushrooms.
Okay, so let's let's go the

396
00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:07,500
other direction.
Then, just with this argument,

397
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,100
what could they be talking
about, then concerning their, in

398
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:14,900
experiences in their weaknesses?
If it's, if they're not

399
00:25:14,900 --> 00:25:17,300
referring to psychedelics where
they referring to?

400
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,800
Well, I would think it's just
experience is with visions and

401
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,500
Revelations and all of this
stuff.

402
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:26,300
I mean, this isn't, this isn't
new among Christianity in

403
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:30,600
general where there's clearly,
no psychedelic Involved you get

404
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,700
a bunch of people together and
if they're all seeking God but

405
00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:37,800
not in the right way.
Even without the use of any kind

406
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,600
of plants, you can induced
states of of confusion lying

407
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,900
Spirits can come among you and
people can get confused and

408
00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:48,500
deceived.
I mean, weakness and experience

409
00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:52,900
towards having visions and
Revelations I would I would

410
00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:56,300
argue these people are having
these powerful manifestations

411
00:25:56,300 --> 00:25:59,000
and you know I've I haven't
personally.

412
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:00,600
And party too.
But I know people have been

413
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,000
party to events that they would
describe very similar to this

414
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,400
where no plant medicine were
involved at.

415
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,800
All right.
Just don't you people got

416
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,700
together and things ended up
getting a little out of control.

417
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,500
We have to remember too that two
things are happening

418
00:26:20,500 --> 00:26:23,900
simultaneously, as Joseph is
restoring.

419
00:26:23,900 --> 00:26:28,900
The gospel one is, is that the
whole areas called?

420
00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:33,200
The burned-over district, right?
Be, yeah, that he's in because

421
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,800
there is a lot of religious
fervor there are, you know,

422
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,500
revivals taking place.
And some of the wildest shows

423
00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:45,500
I've ever attended weren't rock
concerts, but revivals, right.

424
00:26:45,700 --> 00:26:50,800
And so you, you know, they were
looking people, were looking for

425
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,300
those manifestations, talking in
tongues, and ecstasies, and

426
00:26:55,300 --> 00:27:01,200
those sorts of things.
And so, That, that was massive.

427
00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:05,200
On the other hand, Joseph was
also having to deal with.

428
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,900
No God still does talk to us,
right?

429
00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:11,500
Because there was a lot of
people on, in that same time

430
00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:15,400
period, who are like looked
visions and Revelations those

431
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,000
are over, there's no need for
those.

432
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,300
Now we have, we have the, the
Canon of scripture, which, you

433
00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:23,400
know, at that time.
Consisted of the old New

434
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,500
Testament and some good
commentary, so we don't need

435
00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:31,500
visions and Revelations.
Any longer and so you probably

436
00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:36,000
would have a people who would be
obviously people that are drawn

437
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,300
to Joseph for probably people
who are looking for some of

438
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:44,400
those scriptural experiences,
right?

439
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,600
But don't have a lot of
experience in it.

440
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:51,100
So I I'm with you on this one,
right?

441
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:55,200
Is that I think what they're
talking about is trying to bring

442
00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:00,700
a people along that?
Don't have experience with

443
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,500
spiritual manifestations, but
yet are eager to have them.

444
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,100
Yeah, exactly.
Looking for shortcuts.

445
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:13,300
And you know, my my Studies have
Doctrine and Covenants,

446
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:17,000
actually, you know, when these
issues get brought up and Joseph

447
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:22,400
Smith's, Revelations to me, the
doctor in Covenant seems to be a

448
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,700
framework for how to balance
those extremes.

449
00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:29,200
On the one hand You've Got There
Are No Visions Revelations, God

450
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,700
doesn't speak to man anymore.
On the other hand, you've got

451
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,900
you know, God's speaking to me
through this bird and it's

452
00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:38,500
telling me I need to go and And
take my family into the woods

453
00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:43,500
and I don't know do kinds of
weird weirdness, you know I had

454
00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:48,300
a why I know somebody who
suffered a psychotic breakdown

455
00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:53,800
and believed that he was the
drummer exactly.

456
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,800
He was the well he thought he
was Christ himself.

457
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,100
He thought that that the
president of the church was

458
00:29:01,100 --> 00:29:05,500
going to visit him and give him
the keys and he would take over

459
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,400
and that There were new
ordinance, he had new signs and

460
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,300
ordinances for the temple and I
mean, all kinds of crazy stuff

461
00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:13,400
and I mean that wasn't medicine
Bay.

462
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,400
That was the psychotic break,
but I mean these accesses right.

463
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,800
You can go too far, either
direction and the revelations

464
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,400
and Doctrine Covenant seems to
be a framework on how to

465
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,200
approach this properly and the
principles on how to how to do

466
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,000
this properly.
And first and foremost, is that

467
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,900
faith and relationship with God
and that not obedient It's to

468
00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:40,800
God's Commandments and you know,
this actually wasn't brought up

469
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,800
but I'm there's a trying to
remember.

470
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:46,800
There's a story I'd heard when
Joseph Smith was translating The

471
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:53,100
Book of Mormon, where he was
He'd had a fight with Emma, and

472
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,900
he was struggling to translate
afterwards and it just was all

473
00:29:57,900 --> 00:30:02,100
darkness and he couldn't, he
couldn't translate and he had

474
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:05,500
lost his gift temporarily and he
was inspired to go and reconcile

475
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:07,800
with Emma.
And when they worked things out,

476
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:12,100
he was able to continue forward
with the translation and see

477
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:14,700
that's not a shortcut.
That's, that's that's what the

478
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:17,900
scriptures teach.
That's what the, the gospels in

479
00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:21,600
the New Testament.
Teach is that we have to Live.

480
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,900
Our lives as certain way to
receive the benefits and the

481
00:30:25,908 --> 00:30:29,700
gifts of God.
And so to me the doctor and

482
00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:33,200
Covenants, lays down that
framework on, here's how you can

483
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,700
experience these things.
Here's how you can come to God

484
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:41,600
the right way.
And I, you know and to me just

485
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,700
you know experimenting with
mushrooms that's in and of

486
00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:47,200
itself.
That's not the right way, right?

487
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:50,600
Right?
So what are the, what are some

488
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,700
other arguments they use for
Joseph Smith using psychedelics?

489
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,800
Well, the theories kind of go
that he developed this?

490
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:04,400
He was taught by somebody, which
is interesting because, you

491
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,000
know, like the some people think
it's must spend the Indians

492
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,000
taught him.
The Indians have been using

493
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,300
these medicines for a long time
and he learned from an Indian

494
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:17,900
other people.
There was a mentor, somebody who

495
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:21,100
had taught Joseph.
That's when he was younger, who

496
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:27,900
threw some really really stretch
stretches of assumptions later

497
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:31,300
in his life might have
experimented with psychedelics

498
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:33,100
and snow.
He maybe he learned from him.

499
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:35,600
Either way.
The idea is that this is

500
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,900
something Joseph Smith was
experimenting with trying to

501
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:43,100
figure out the right way to use
and that leads to an account.

502
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:46,700
That was quoted in the book.
Rough Rolling Stone.

503
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,700
Which you know, granted it is a
little bit of a disturbing

504
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:54,500
story.
I haven't gone into the details

505
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:57,900
on it to know how you know
authentic and accurate.

506
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:03,800
It is but this one was, let's
see.

507
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:08,800
This quote was saying, there's a
meeting with Joseph where he was

508
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,300
ordaining.
Harvey Whitlock to the high

509
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:17,300
priest stood, the most important
business of the meeting and, and

510
00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:22,100
Whitlock, reacted badly.
He turned as black as Lyman was

511
00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:25,800
white Hancock, reported his
fingers were like claws.

512
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,400
He went around the room and
showed his hands and tried to

513
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,400
speak.
His eyes, were the shape of O's

514
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,700
And so, all of the eyes were the
shape of owes the pupils must be

515
00:32:34,708 --> 00:32:39,000
dilated?
That's, that's proof of, you

516
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,500
know, psychedelics being
involved.

517
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:42,500
Well, you know, I yeah, it's a
certain degree.

518
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:44,600
You got to look at cause and
effect to actually and we

519
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,700
haven't, we haven't talked about
this but You got to ask well,

520
00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:53,100
why are the eyes dilated?
Is it because of medicine or and

521
00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:55,700
that's causing that effect, or
is there some spiritual thing?

522
00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:58,400
That's that would also cause the
same physiological effect

523
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:03,400
because I mean I think that our
bodies are important and the

524
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:09,400
things that to me, if signs were
to monitor the body and be able

525
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,500
to say, oh, this is what's going
on in the body, when you're hot,

526
00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:14,000
when you're praying, when you're
having a spiritual experience

527
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,600
and being able to measure that,
that doesn't mean you're not

528
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,000
having a spiritual experience.
It That mean that you're just

529
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,400
having a physical experience
just because you can measure it

530
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,300
physically, right?
So I mean, I think that's really

531
00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:32,900
important to understand but in
this case so there so they were

532
00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:36,600
astonished at the turn of events
Hiram exclaimed, Joseph, that is

533
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,800
not of God and Joseph unwilling
to cut the phenomena short told

534
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,900
Hiram to wait.
But Hiram insisted, I will not

535
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:46,100
believe unless you inquire of
God and he owns it.

536
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,700
And so Joseph, then bowed his
head and in a short time God up

537
00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:54,700
and commanded Satan to leave and
then Harvey laying his hands

538
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:58,700
upon his head at the same time.
And then Hancock said to Lehman

539
00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:02,200
copeley who weighed over 200
pounds somersaulted in the air

540
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,700
and fell on his back, over a
bench and then wait cast Satan

541
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,199
out of coal.
Plea and Cokely was closed

542
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:14,600
calmed.
So that story first of all, you

543
00:34:14,607 --> 00:34:16,699
know, 200-pound man, suddenly
doing a backflip.

544
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,800
Flip also doesn't sound like
psychedelics, you know, maybe

545
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,100
super soldier serum, right?
But, uh, but not mushrooms.

546
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,600
And the the idea here is that he
was being ordained, and they

547
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,600
ordained with oils back, then, a
lot of times.

548
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,100
And so, the oil might have been
laced with something which, you

549
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:39,000
know, that's a real real
stretch.

550
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,600
I mean modern today, with modern
science, understanding of

551
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,400
chemistry, is it possible to
create a topical oil?

552
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,000
That will Produce an effect?
Yeah, absolutely.

553
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,900
It's possible.
But did people did people have

554
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:53,600
that technology, where they
aware that?

555
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,199
Have that kind of understanding
back then?

556
00:34:55,699 --> 00:34:59,100
It's very, very doubtful and
that such a thing would have to

557
00:34:59,107 --> 00:35:01,100
be.
So concentrated to the other

558
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:02,500
thing.
A lot of people don't maybe not

559
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:06,500
might not realize is that with
most of these medicines, it

560
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:08,300
takes time for them to come into
effect.

561
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:11,800
They're not instantaneous, you
don't, you don't have a plant

562
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,600
medicine experience, where you
take something, and then you're

563
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,100
instantly in an altered state.
State at least not a topical or

564
00:35:19,100 --> 00:35:22,400
most oral type things that a
natural plant medicine, they

565
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:23,900
don't, they don't react that
way.

566
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,100
In fact, I was reading some of
the ancient Mayans would use

567
00:35:28,300 --> 00:35:32,600
plant medicine enemas, in an
attempt to increase the speed of

568
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,100
onset of the effects because you
know, you take something orally,

569
00:35:37,100 --> 00:35:40,700
you know, it can take, you know,
half an hour even longer before

570
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,400
you start seeing any kind of any
kind of effect on the body or

571
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,500
the mind.
So, The idea that that you did,

572
00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:52,500
anoint somebody with an oil back
then with some psychedelic.

573
00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:55,500
That was so powerful that it
would just kind of instantly.

574
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:58,100
Put somebody in that kind of
states is pretty absurd.

575
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:03,200
It also really doesn't explain
what then happened to Lehman

576
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,800
copeley afterwards and what
happened to him?

577
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,500
What was he Anointed with oil as
well?

578
00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:12,800
Why did he suddenly become
possessed as well?

579
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,500
So with both of those It's
inconsistent.

580
00:36:18,500 --> 00:36:21,000
It doesn't really fit the
narrative here.

581
00:36:21,300 --> 00:36:26,400
It's kind of being injected in a
way that doesn't really fit and

582
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,100
frankly it's more of just
filling this narrative that he

583
00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:33,200
Joseph Smith was experimenting
with his stuff yet still he

584
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:34,200
didn't get the dose.
Right.

585
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:43,000
That's why that's why.
That's why was it Whitlock RV.

586
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,300
What?
That's why Harvey Whitlock had a

587
00:36:44,308 --> 00:36:46,600
bad experience because he just
he got too much.

588
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,400
Was too strong.
And so yeah.

589
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,500
Again this narrative, I don't
see it, it's not there at all to

590
00:36:54,500 --> 00:37:00,200
try to make try to inject that
into this story is disingenuous

591
00:37:00,700 --> 00:37:03,100
to anybody who knows anything
about this.

592
00:37:03,100 --> 00:37:07,600
Anybody that has any experience
well in that it further cast

593
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:14,100
aspersion on on Joseph Smith's
character, right?

594
00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:16,900
I mean essentially what what
they're trying to say Say.

595
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:19,000
Here is that?
Joseph Smith was like slipping

596
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:23,100
people roofies, right?
Yeah, exactly.

597
00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:28,300
And so, no, you look at you.
Look at the whole argument and

598
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,800
it just it's gross.
I don't know how else to put it.

599
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,000
It's just gross.
Well, and I, you know, I don't

600
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,400
want to get too personal here,
but I've had experience, I've

601
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,100
had spiritual experiences
without any kind of psychedelic,

602
00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:47,600
plant medicine or anything and
I've had good spiritual

603
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,100
experiences.
I've also had some pretty scary

604
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:55,900
spiritual experiences and so
this idea that you that that

605
00:37:55,900 --> 00:37:58,300
it's just a Smith's fault here
to like you're saying, not only,

606
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:00,500
are they saying that not only is
implication that he's slipping

607
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:03,000
people drugs?
He also the implication is that

608
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,900
this satanic manifestation was
due to Joseph Smith.

609
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:12,600
Experience with administering,
these drugs as opposed to knows

610
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:17,200
a bad Spirit came in, Satan's
came in and and came in and

611
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:22,400
manipulated the the spiritual
experience which we have that

612
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,600
exact same account with with
Moses.

613
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:29,600
And even Joseph, Smith's vision
of there are dark spiritual

614
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,700
forces out there.
And that's also very clear and

615
00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:36,300
Doctrine and Covenants.
And so, this kind of tries to

616
00:38:36,300 --> 00:38:39,100
put the blame come on Joseph
Smith and I don't think that's

617
00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:44,500
very fair either, you know, and
I think I was kind of trying to

618
00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:50,900
figure out how someone even came
up with the idea that this is

619
00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:54,400
where it came from, right?
And one of the things I thought

620
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:59,600
about is, you know, our people
projecting people who dislike

621
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,800
religion in general projecting
writer, they projecting their

622
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:09,000
there, Jim Jones fears, You
know, back on Joseph Smith a

623
00:39:09,008 --> 00:39:13,200
little bit, that's a good point.
And that's the thing too.

624
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,900
I mean, I, I believe in
spirituality, but I also believe

625
00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:19,500
in religion, right?
The religions the framework in

626
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:22,600
which we interpret and
understand these kind of

627
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,800
spiritual experiences, but I
think a lot of these people they

628
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,100
want to divorce.
They want they want the

629
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:32,200
spiritual experiences but they
don't want the religion and

630
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,700
ultimately like you're saying,
this is kind of a way of

631
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:38,500
Escaping the religious aspect of
it.

632
00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:41,900
You don't have to believe,
Joseph Smith was a prophet, but

633
00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:44,400
you can believe that well, maybe
he received some things that

634
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,000
were true because he was just on
some plant medicine.

635
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:54,600
Yeah, and but again, if that's
the case.

636
00:39:55,900 --> 00:40:00,600
Right.
Cuz the whole restoration

637
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,300
movement revolves and starts
with this idea that Joseph,

638
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,000
Excuse experience, what he said
he experienced.

639
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:18,700
And so if he is in any way
compromised in that you've Now

640
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:22,100
cast dispersion and doubt upon
the foundations of the

641
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:27,300
restoration.
And that's scary part.

642
00:40:28,100 --> 00:40:31,600
I might challenge you a little
bit on that because I do believe

643
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,000
that some things were not as
initially as Joe Smith,

644
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,000
initially proclaimed them to be
a lot of the first Vision.

645
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,300
I mean, you know, the atheist
say that he changed the story.

646
00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:45,800
I believe he, he revealed more
and more as he was more

647
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,800
comfortable sharing more.
I would, I would agree with

648
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,800
that.
Now, a lot of the doctrines

649
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,100
doctor, Edge was something that
just wasn't very kept very close

650
00:40:56,100 --> 00:40:58,500
to his chest to the point that
you've got people denying that

651
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:01,800
he taught it and lived it even
because of that.

652
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,900
But that doesn't mean that he
didn't did that there might not

653
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:07,000
be, you know, there could be
thing.

654
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,000
I mean, I'm open to the idea
that well, maybe there were

655
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,900
things that he just kept closer
to his chest, not because it

656
00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:15,600
wasn't true, but because people
weren't ready to receive it.

657
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,800
So II, do understand, the idea
that will maybe that plant

658
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,400
medicine was one of those
things.

659
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,600
I don't think that is a
completely.

660
00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:29,200
Good argument to be honest.
But if you're a guy because you

661
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:33,400
have to look at the totality
totalitarian, excuse me, the

662
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:38,600
totality of their argument,
which is Joseph, Smith was

663
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,000
power-hungry everything else,
right?

664
00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:46,800
If, if it was plant medicine
that got him to that point, he

665
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,900
would be all for other people
taking it right?

666
00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:53,300
My thought is if he's that guy,
he's going to introduce that a

667
00:41:53,308 --> 00:41:56,400
lot sooner, right?
Oh sure.

668
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:57,500
Yeah.
Well, I mean, they're kind of

669
00:41:57,500 --> 00:42:00,600
trying to argue that he did and
that explains everything because

670
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,500
he did start, you know, but it
was in secret, but it wasn't in

671
00:42:03,500 --> 00:42:06,100
secret.
It's a very, it's a, very

672
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:11,800
inconsistent narrative and and
there's, there's a large

673
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,800
difference between holding
certain things closer to the

674
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,700
vest until you feel like people
are ready to hear it. as opposed

675
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:22,600
to being in a compromised, state
of mind, when you have your

676
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:27,500
foundational religious
experience, Sure, I can

677
00:42:27,500 --> 00:42:28,500
understand that.
Yeah.

678
00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:32,700
Absolutely.
And so I think that probably the

679
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:36,800
biggest argument is this idea of
the Kirtland Temple experience,

680
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,100
mmm, because you had, like, 500
people having these powerful

681
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:46,300
visions and spiritual edifying
ones to to point out, you know,

682
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:50,700
no, no devil sneaking in and
causing Mischief type of

683
00:42:50,700 --> 00:42:52,900
experience and you've got
happening to all of these

684
00:42:52,900 --> 00:42:57,400
people.
And so, if you want to believe

685
00:42:57,500 --> 00:43:03,200
that, Joseph Smith was using And
theologians, then this is the,

686
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,700
this is the best X, this is a
perfect explanation for how

687
00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:10,600
you'd have that much witness and
testimony of these kind of

688
00:43:10,607 --> 00:43:15,900
spiritual things.
And so, that's probably, I think

689
00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:18,800
it's one of the are the key
arguments or one of the key

690
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,100
premises is that that can
explain how it how so many

691
00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:25,700
people had, you know, a powerful
experience.

692
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,800
But it's also ironically,
probably the very It's probably

693
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,400
the most fault flawed premise of
all of them as well.

694
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:39,000
Yeah.
I so in in preparation for this,

695
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:44,600
I did a lot of looking at what
some of those experiences are

696
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,700
like, right, and, you know, in
full disclosure.

697
00:43:48,700 --> 00:43:51,700
I certainly tried it as a young
man before I was a Mormon.

698
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,600
But the thing I found is this,
this isn't something that causes

699
00:43:57,300 --> 00:44:04,200
Mass hallucinations That
everybody sees the same thing,

700
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,200
these are personalized
experiences, right?

701
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:12,200
So this idea, so there the idea
that you know in Kirtland with

702
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,600
the dedication of the Kirtland
Temple, Joseph put some

703
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,700
psilocybin in the sacramental
wine or whatever it is.

704
00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:25,800
The thing that says he didn't do
that as the fact that people are

705
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,000
saying they saw the same things,
right?

706
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,900
You have independent
corroborating Once that show

707
00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:40,400
that he is that they are
witnessing the same event,

708
00:44:40,700 --> 00:44:44,000
right?
If you're on some kind of

709
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:50,300
hallucinogen, those are all very
personal experiences that are

710
00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:53,600
dictated in a lot by the baggage
you carry around.

711
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,500
And as humans we know we all
carry different types of

712
00:44:56,500 --> 00:44:59,600
baggage.
Some stuff is similar but we

713
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,500
carry different kinds of
baggage.

714
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:06,500
So this idea that hundreds, if
not thousands of people are

715
00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:09,900
witnessing the same thing, and
you can chalk that up to a to a

716
00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:12,900
mass hallucination.
I don't buy it.

717
00:45:14,100 --> 00:45:16,300
Well exactly.
And this is something that

718
00:45:16,300 --> 00:45:19,500
people who have a don't have any
experience with these kinds of

719
00:45:19,508 --> 00:45:24,200
things wouldn't might not be
aware of but you don't lose.

720
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,200
So I think that as this is
presented, its the idea here is

721
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,600
that well Joseph Smith suggested
to them that they saw these

722
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,700
things and because they are
under these effects, therefore

723
00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:37,000
they saw them.
And if you don't have experience

724
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:42,200
with that, you might you might
assume that that these kinds of

725
00:45:42,300 --> 00:45:46,000
these kind of medicine.
Is a hypnotic type of a

726
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,400
experience where you can where
you're open to suggestions and

727
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,200
you know, people can tell you
what you see and you'll see it.

728
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,500
And that's also, you know,
that's deeply flawed and people

729
00:45:57,500 --> 00:46:00,100
who do have experience with
these things, know that it is

730
00:46:00,100 --> 00:46:04,100
like you said it is a very, you
know, it's very personal and you

731
00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:08,300
are not in a state where you
can't decide or discern things,

732
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:11,900
you don't lose your identity.
You are.

733
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:15,800
I mean, that was one of my
Biggest concerns with, with even

734
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,300
having, you know, going into an
experience with plant medicine

735
00:46:19,300 --> 00:46:21,200
was, well am I going to lose my
self?

736
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,600
Am I going to come out of it?
Somebody else or even just for a

737
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,500
moment.
Am I gonna am I going to lose

738
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:30,300
myself?
And frankly, I that's not the

739
00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:33,800
case.
I think alcohol actually is more

740
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:39,600
likely to put you in a state of
being open to suggestion, then

741
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,900
any kind of in theologians would
and even then is most people Oh

742
00:46:43,908 --> 00:46:45,000
no, not me.
Not most people.

743
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,700
But as many people might have
had experiences with alcohol.

744
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,800
Even then you know, if you're if
you're drunk and somebody says,

745
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:54,400
oh look that's an angel.
You're not just be like, oh wow,

746
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,700
amazing.
Right.

747
00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:00,900
So yeah, that's one of the
issues and, you know, another

748
00:47:00,900 --> 00:47:02,500
one of the issues with the whole
Kirtland thing.

749
00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:05,400
That's to me, is just the
smoking.

750
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:15,000
The Smoking Gun is dose dosage
with plant medicine is pretty

751
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,700
important.
If you don't have enough of, if

752
00:47:18,700 --> 00:47:20,500
you don't receive enough
medicine, you're not going to

753
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:23,100
have any discernible effect
whatsoever.

754
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,200
If you have too much, you're
going to be in a coma, it could

755
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,500
possibly kill you.
You, so how do you administer

756
00:47:31,500 --> 00:47:36,300
plant medicine to 500 people and
get the dose for all of them?

757
00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:40,600
Exactly right.
Unless you had some sort of a

758
00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:44,000
very obvious manipulated
situation.

759
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,400
How much do you weigh?
Okay come here and you're

760
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,600
willing your metallic a here,
take drink this and now you.

761
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,800
Okay you're about that big.
Let me thank you to take this.

762
00:47:54,300 --> 00:47:58,300
If it was if it was just spiked
wine and the thing is they When

763
00:47:58,300 --> 00:48:04,100
to that fasting.
And so if it was just an well,

764
00:48:04,100 --> 00:48:06,700
first of all, they went into a
fasting and they particular wine

765
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:09,800
and bread freely during during
the dedication.

766
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:15,200
So it wasn't a controlled
situation and if the wine was

767
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:19,900
spiked then and then, you know,
you have some small woman go and

768
00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:23,700
take two or three glasses, you
know, she got it, she would have

769
00:48:23,707 --> 00:48:27,400
been in a coma could have died
if it was strong enough dose, if

770
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:28,400
it wasn't that.
Wrong enough.

771
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:32,200
Dose than, you know you know men
who only had who would have only

772
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,800
had a single glass would have,
would have had any kind of

773
00:48:34,900 --> 00:48:36,800
experience or effect at all
whatsoever.

774
00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:43,000
It's really, it's pretty much
impossible to have a situation

775
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,000
here where you've got a spiked
wine and you have that many

776
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,300
different people with that many
different body weights,

777
00:48:49,300 --> 00:48:56,100
metabolisms and you somehow end
up with nobody Keeling over and

778
00:48:56,100 --> 00:48:59,800
everybody having a Oil Visionary
experience.

779
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,900
It's just it's not possible.
It just doesn't hold water.

780
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,300
I mean it doesn't, it doesn't
work.

781
00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:13,400
I don't know how many ways you
look at it, it just can't work.

782
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:22,000
so yeah, that's that's that's a
big A big red flag as far as as

783
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:28,200
their reasoning and again if
it's just a cult of personality

784
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:33,400
to Justin even with the AIDS of
psychedelics, that Fades really

785
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,800
quick.
That face really quick or it

786
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,600
goes off the rails horribly.
And then it fades again, right?

787
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:46,000
But at one point or another,
those kind of groups that use

788
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,700
psychedelics for those purposes.
Usually end up going off the

789
00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:53,500
rails or just fading away Into
Obscurity.

790
00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:58,500
With the exception, with the
exception of people who follow

791
00:49:58,500 --> 00:50:01,200
the Grateful Dead, they managed
to get away with it for a long

792
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,900
time.
So sure.

793
00:50:04,900 --> 00:50:08,000
Yeah.
Well and I got one more, one

794
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,700
more count here that I've that
that has been shared and this is

795
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:17,000
an account from a physician,
which therefore means it's true,

796
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,600
couldn't possibly be wrong
because we all know that

797
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,600
Physicians are God and are
always correct and this was a

798
00:50:23,607 --> 00:50:29,800
Jasper CMOS.
And this was a, he was a

799
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,800
skeptic.
He was among the saints but he

800
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,100
wasn't.
He was skeptical, Joseph Smith.

801
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:37,800
He was skeptical of the
restoration.

802
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,500
He went into this from a
non-believing.

803
00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:44,400
Intent.
Right?

804
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:54,600
And this is a quote that he
shared from his you'd almost say

805
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:58,800
infiltration of a meeting with
Joseph Smith and some other

806
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,300
people.
He said I attended their meeting

807
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,400
I believe I was the first person
with a young man whose name I

808
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,500
have forgotten who was present
when they took what was called

809
00:51:09,500 --> 00:51:12,000
the sacrament up at the morally
house.

810
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,500
They were in the habit of
turning everybody out of the

811
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:17,400
door when they partook of the
Bread and Wine.

812
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,100
Putting up blankets at the
window shutting off the site

813
00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:24,900
from without and they started a
regular powwow and when they got

814
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:27,800
well going, then they open the
door and let us all come in

815
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,700
again.
And so again, already, he's

816
00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:36,000
describing this in a way that is
already - right a powwow.

817
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,300
It's he's using terminology here
that is derogatory and is

818
00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:45,100
already implies that.
That it wasn't any kind of a

819
00:51:45,107 --> 00:51:46,900
spiritual experience to people
were having.

820
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:49,500
It was they were just freaking
out.

821
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:54,000
They were just, they were just
off their rocker. but then he

822
00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:00,100
goes, he continues on and says
Let's see that I get old, man,

823
00:52:00,100 --> 00:52:03,500
and myself made it up that we
would stay in unless they took

824
00:52:03,500 --> 00:52:07,100
us out by force.
The young man, got a sleep and I

825
00:52:07,100 --> 00:52:10,900
had the dummy evil and could not
talk, but they did not carry us

826
00:52:10,900 --> 00:52:13,000
out.
But went on with the sacrament,

827
00:52:13,300 --> 00:52:17,500
the Poor House in Portage County
Ohio, where there were half a

828
00:52:17,500 --> 00:52:21,100
dozen, insane and idiotic
persons was the best comparison

829
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:23,100
of anything to the scene that
night.

830
00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:27,200
And if I had my cloak on, I
would have stolen the wind and

831
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:28,800
carried it home.
I'm to see whether it was

832
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,600
drugged or not.
So, oh, this guy's a doctor.

833
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,700
He thinks maybe the wine was
drugged therefore contemporary

834
00:52:36,700 --> 00:52:41,300
evidence, which another but you
know in rally somebody else came

835
00:52:41,300 --> 00:52:43,600
up with this idea.
First thought, maybe maybe

836
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,000
things were drug that doesn't
prove anything.

837
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,800
Just just because some somebody
100 years ago, had the same or

838
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,200
maybe you know, actually pushing
a couple hundred years now had

839
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:58,300
the same.
Concern or theory on what was

840
00:52:58,300 --> 00:53:02,100
going on?
That's not, he didn't grab the

841
00:53:02,100 --> 00:53:02,900
wine.
Didn't I say?

842
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:06,300
What was interesting to me about
this though, is that it to me,

843
00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:08,000
it looks like he didn't partake
of anything.

844
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,100
It looks to me, like he did not
take of the Bread and Wine

845
00:53:11,300 --> 00:53:14,700
because if he had, he wouldn't
have had to steal it to see if

846
00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:18,100
it was drugged or not, he would
have claimed, he had it, and he

847
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:20,100
knew it was drugged because he
partook of it.

848
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:26,000
And yet so I mean it's pretty
clear to me that in this account

849
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,600
he did not partake of the he did
not partake of the wine.

850
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:33,200
The proponents of the
Psychedelic Theory here are

851
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,400
claiming he did and that's he he
said he had the dumb evil and

852
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,300
could not talk.
Well that's us.

853
00:53:38,300 --> 00:53:42,300
That's a side effect of our
potential side effect of using

854
00:53:42,300 --> 00:53:44,600
these things.
So that's proof that that he

855
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:46,800
did.
Well that doesn't add up.

856
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,400
In fact, the fact that he claims
that he had the dumb evil and

857
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:54,200
could not talk to To me
indicates that there was

858
00:53:54,200 --> 00:54:00,500
something going on and he was
being spiritually barred from

859
00:54:00,500 --> 00:54:05,200
interrupting or Mary.
No, messing with the, with the

860
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,700
events going on that night,
which is again more sign of an

861
00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:10,700
actual spiritual experience
happening.

862
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:16,700
Not just some kind of the drug
war G as he's trying to as this

863
00:54:16,700 --> 00:54:19,500
Jasper.
Mosque, tried to portray it.

864
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:24,800
You know, something else to they
got me in as you were reading

865
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,400
that account.
You have to remember also that

866
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:33,000
there's a large portion of
society during that time that

867
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,700
were kind of suspicious of
secret societies.

868
00:54:37,100 --> 00:54:40,800
Right there was a big thing
going on with, you know,

869
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,800
Mason's.
They, you know, a lot of folks

870
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:48,500
were were into the Mason Masonic
conspiracy going on.

871
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:54,500
At that point, they they'd been,
you know, trying to, you know,

872
00:54:54,500 --> 00:54:58,400
pin murders on the Masons and
everything else at that point

873
00:54:58,500 --> 00:55:03,200
and so when he gives his account
with and they put blankets over

874
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:08,500
the windows and they shut the
doors and if you're familiar

875
00:55:08,500 --> 00:55:12,600
with the time in which Joseph
Smith is living and performing

876
00:55:13,300 --> 00:55:18,100
his work in the restoration and
you're familiar with with the

877
00:55:18,100 --> 00:55:25,600
social Oh, inclinations of the
time you can see a lot of these

878
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,800
arguments start to float to the
surface based on what's

879
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,200
happening in the Zeitgeist so to
speak.

880
00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:34,000
Oh yeah.
And trying to cover the you

881
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,200
know, trying to keep these
things.

882
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,900
Private is no indication of
anything nefarious either.

883
00:55:37,900 --> 00:55:41,000
It just it's just a desire to
keep them private.

884
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,400
There's a reason why temples
aren't made of glass, right?

885
00:55:45,100 --> 00:55:49,800
Sacred things have always been
intended to be kept private and

886
00:55:50,100 --> 00:55:52,500
we're not supposed to cast our
Pearls Before Swine.

887
00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:58,600
So a desire to keep things
private for people like this guy

888
00:55:58,900 --> 00:56:04,500
from interloping and and drawing
the wrong conclusions because of

889
00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:08,700
his own clearly you know, he
went into that with a desire to

890
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,600
prove or to out what was going
on.

891
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:15,300
He didn't he was not there to
believe he was there to to

892
00:56:15,300 --> 00:56:19,600
expose in his own mind.
So you know a desire to keep

893
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,600
sacred things.
It is, that's very natural.

894
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:27,600
I don't think anybody would want
to have a personal, you know,

895
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,800
spiritual experience out in
broad daylight with a bunch of

896
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,700
people laughing and mocking.
Yeah, yeah.

897
00:56:33,700 --> 00:56:37,000
No.
But that's, yeah, that's a good

898
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,600
point.
But it doesn't make for a sexy

899
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,600
story if it's not secret.
Yeah.

900
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:44,900
Yeah.
And who knows they?

901
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,200
Who knows the reliability of
that account anyways, right,

902
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:49,600
right.
Because you could tell you he

903
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:53,700
wasn't All towards Joseph Smith
at whatsoever or the morning.

904
00:56:53,800 --> 00:57:01,700
So so so let's do you have any
other anything else you want to

905
00:57:01,700 --> 00:57:06,000
take apart right there?
You know, there might be some

906
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,100
better evidences, but you know,
these are these are this is,

907
00:57:09,100 --> 00:57:13,400
this is the arguments from the
Sunstone Symposium that came

908
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,100
out.
This is, you know, the scholars

909
00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:18,500
trying to find evidence of plant
medicine and the restoration.

910
00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:21,100
This is this is the best that
they came up with at least at

911
00:57:21,100 --> 00:57:26,200
that time.
So I and I don't I didn't again

912
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,200
not a single one of these things
is compelling to me in the

913
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:34,200
slightest and most of them are
actually, pretty, pretty Being

914
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,200
of the exact opposite of the
argument, they're trying to

915
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,500
make.
So do we have anything on the

916
00:57:40,500 --> 00:57:44,900
other side that we could point
to as evidence that Joseph

917
00:57:44,900 --> 00:57:51,400
didn't use psychedelics?
Well, I think a lot of these

918
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,300
already, kind of, like I
mentioned already are pretty

919
00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:58,800
self contained evidences that,
that they weren't like Kirtland.

920
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:03,400
Like the impossibility of being
able to properly dose that many

921
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,000
people to have a shared
experience.

922
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,700
It's just not feasible.
The idea that, you know, only

923
00:58:10,700 --> 00:58:12,800
maybe some of you dressed up as
Christ, okay.

924
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:14,700
Maybe somebody did.
But not everybody did have a

925
00:58:14,707 --> 00:58:18,200
spiritual experience.
So if most of the rooms high and

926
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:22,000
Joseph says, oh, that's Moses
and everybody looks like okay

927
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:23,700
that must be Moses because
they're high.

928
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:26,500
Well, the person is not high,
it's gonna be like wait that's

929
00:58:26,500 --> 00:58:27,500
not Moses.
I know who that.

930
00:58:27,500 --> 00:58:29,600
That's just so old.
So on, so dressed up for

931
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:33,300
something a cough and we would
have heard those accounts as

932
00:58:33,300 --> 00:58:37,300
well.
So the honestly the best, I

933
00:58:37,308 --> 00:58:41,600
think some of the best evidence
that Joseph Smith did not use a

934
00:58:41,607 --> 00:58:44,600
theologians is actually
contained in these arguments

935
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:48,400
already that we've kind of
already discussed, but I think

936
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,700
one other important One is to
understand, Joseph Smith was

937
00:58:50,700 --> 00:58:57,300
very Progressive as, in a proper
term of the term in the proper

938
00:58:57,300 --> 00:59:02,600
use of the term meaning he was,
he was looking for truth and he

939
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:05,700
was open to finding truth,
wherever wherever it.

940
00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:09,100
Maybe he wasn't afraid of
something, just because it was

941
00:59:09,100 --> 00:59:15,000
culturally taboo, clearly.
And so, and we know that Joseph

942
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,800
Smith taught many things that
were that were very heretical.

943
00:59:19,100 --> 00:59:22,400
To the Christianity and the
common culture at the time.

944
00:59:23,300 --> 00:59:27,200
And so knowing that, I mean,
first of all, there's no reason

945
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,400
for Joseph Smith to have
hiddenness in my opinion.

946
00:59:30,300 --> 00:59:34,200
In fact, it would have been very
easy to incorporate it into his

947
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:40,400
Theology and especially at the
very least into some of the

948
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,700
symbology.
Like, if you look at some early

949
00:59:43,700 --> 00:59:46,700
Christian work, there's actually
some very interesting evidence

950
00:59:46,700 --> 00:59:49,000
that early Christians did use
it.

951
00:59:49,200 --> 00:59:51,900
Engines.
You can see the Amanita mushroom

952
00:59:51,900 --> 00:59:56,000
depicted an early, Christian art
in a way that's well pretty

953
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,400
bizarre.
Like the artist must have been

954
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:04,300
on something when they when they
created that and so you know,

955
01:00:04,300 --> 01:00:09,200
where is the sacred mushroom?
Adorning the temple or hidden in

956
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,400
the in the in the symbology of
the temple?

957
01:00:12,100 --> 01:00:13,400
It's not there.
Where's the?

958
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:18,900
Where's the hidden in mushroom
in in the revelations and it's

959
01:00:19,100 --> 01:00:22,600
Out there, and I don't, if
Joseph Smith was having these

960
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,900
extra these experiences with the
aid of the theologians.

961
01:00:26,500 --> 01:00:31,700
I don't think he would have
shied away from from, well,

962
01:00:31,700 --> 01:00:34,700
teaching that and incorporating
that into the religion.

963
01:00:34,900 --> 01:00:39,500
And the fact that he didn't is
also in my opinion, really

964
01:00:39,500 --> 01:00:42,000
strong evidence that there was
nothing there.

965
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,900
Yeah, I we forget that.
Joseph Smith is upsetting a lot

966
01:00:46,900 --> 01:00:49,300
of norms in Victorian society.
Right.

967
01:00:49,300 --> 01:00:55,000
I mean, a man can have more than
one wife that's pretty, that's

968
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,400
pretty salacious stuff.
And, well, it can be salacious

969
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:03,200
now, but it was really salacious
in the 1800 s, right?

970
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:08,400
This idea of people coming
together and and living and

971
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:13,200
working together and, you know,
trying to build a almost, a

972
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:19,000
counterculture was again on the
fringes of society.

973
01:01:19,100 --> 01:01:22,400
T at best.
Yeah, certain well, he wasn't

974
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:26,800
the first to, to think about,
you know, a community like that

975
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:29,700
but he was he was definitely the
most successful.

976
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:35,100
And and I agree with you that
if, if this was something that

977
01:01:35,100 --> 01:01:40,700
that was Central to him, gaining
Revelation to his Visions, I

978
01:01:40,700 --> 01:01:45,400
think he would have made it.
No, Yeah, at least to an inner

979
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:48,700
circle and you'd at least signs
of it.

980
01:01:48,700 --> 01:01:51,700
And it's just, it's not there,
you know?

981
01:01:51,700 --> 01:01:55,100
And it's not just the not just
plural marriage, you've also got

982
01:01:55,300 --> 01:01:57,700
to me the that's not that
revolutionary.

983
01:01:58,100 --> 01:02:00,400
What was truly?
I think revolutionary about

984
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,000
Joseph Smith's teachings in the
Revelation that really that even

985
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:07,400
to this day In my opinion is the
biggest Gulf between us and

986
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:13,400
Christians.
Is this idea that that God once

987
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:18,200
was a man like we are and that
we have the ability to become

988
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:22,300
like God that we are literally
The Offspring of God, that is

989
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:27,500
still to this day completely
unacceptable in modern Christian

990
01:02:27,500 --> 01:02:31,300
society and culture that can
they see that as bad as, you

991
01:02:31,300 --> 01:02:34,700
know, new ageism and and and
occultism.

992
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:38,900
I'm and devil worship re it's,
it's a cardinal sin to

993
01:02:38,900 --> 01:02:43,600
Christianity as a whole.
So, to dare to is, to dare to

994
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:46,400
preach a theology that man can
become gods.

995
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:54,200
But be too timid to to talk
about some beneficial plants

996
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:58,200
that God created, that might
help you have a relationship

997
01:02:58,200 --> 01:02:59,900
with God.
I don't, I don't see it.

998
01:02:59,900 --> 01:03:02,600
I don't know why he wouldn't
have taught and shared.

999
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:06,000
It just doesn't make any sense.
Absolutely.

1000
01:03:06,900 --> 01:03:12,100
So real quick without naming
individual names.

1001
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:17,000
Are there certain groups that
are espousing this Doctrine,

1002
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:21,900
more than others?
Is this just, you know, secular

1003
01:03:21,900 --> 01:03:24,100
Scholars who were who's looking
too.

1004
01:03:26,700 --> 01:03:33,300
I don't know, discredit the
restoration or our who are are

1005
01:03:33,300 --> 01:03:37,800
there like faithful members or
I, you know, I use faithful in

1006
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:42,800
quotations here but are there
faithful adherents to the the

1007
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:46,100
restoration who are trying to
use these things.

1008
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:51,600
And public about it.
Yeah, I don't know about being

1009
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:55,100
public per se, but I do know and
again, I don't want to name

1010
01:03:55,100 --> 01:04:00,900
names, but I am aware of people
that are promoting these things

1011
01:04:00,900 --> 01:04:03,500
in a way that I'm really that.
I'm personally kind of

1012
01:04:03,508 --> 01:04:10,200
uncomfortable with okay.
And so, yeah, okay, so let's

1013
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:14,400
let's do the whole know them by
their fruit trick here, right?

1014
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:19,500
That that litmus test yeah, in
the folks that you're aware of

1015
01:04:20,500 --> 01:04:28,700
that are espousing this heavily
What has been some of the the

1016
01:04:28,700 --> 01:04:34,100
fruit of that the outgrowth?
A large part of it has been,

1017
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:38,000
ultimately, well, long term has
been a denial of the restoration

1018
01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:44,200
where, you know, not a complete
outright rejection but more of

1019
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:48,300
this idea that, you know, Joseph
Smith restoration, sure, maybe

1020
01:04:48,300 --> 01:04:52,000
just Smith was an ascended one,
like christ-like Buddha, like,

1021
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,600
like I can't move the Indian one
but you know what I mean?

1022
01:04:57,200 --> 01:05:01,100
He's just a, he was just an
ascended master and and

1023
01:05:01,100 --> 01:05:03,800
therefore the Restoration, you
can, you can take it or leave

1024
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,100
it.
It's just one of the, many ways

1025
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:11,300
ways to God.
And so, that's, that's been

1026
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:14,900
ultimately, well, from a faith
perspective.

1027
01:05:14,900 --> 01:05:17,200
That's the most damaging.
And that's one of my biggest

1028
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:23,100
concerns, and the second one is
a destruction of family and

1029
01:05:23,100 --> 01:05:28,600
relationships too.
I think that well the whole

1030
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,800
argument here the very beginning
from that.

1031
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:36,900
First example of let's see that
was partly Pratt.

1032
01:05:38,100 --> 01:05:41,900
He was concerned because he said
these manifestations they were

1033
01:05:41,900 --> 01:05:46,800
disgusting rather than edifying.
And that's to me, that that is

1034
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:48,900
the fruit.
Is it really edifying?

1035
01:05:48,900 --> 01:05:50,400
Does it make you a better
father?

1036
01:05:50,400 --> 01:05:52,700
Does it make your families come
together?

1037
01:05:52,700 --> 01:05:54,500
Do you love your brothers and
sisters?

1038
01:05:54,500 --> 01:05:59,600
More are your family
relationships improving or our

1039
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,200
does it break them apart?
Does it isolate?

1040
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,400
You does it separate you from
the people who love and care

1041
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:08,600
about you?
And, I mean, you might argue

1042
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:10,600
that well, they're being
judgmental, I know in some of

1043
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:14,100
these cases that's not the case.
It's not people being

1044
01:06:14,100 --> 01:06:15,000
judgmental.
Mental.

1045
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,900
It's the other way around a lot.
And that's the argument you get

1046
01:06:18,900 --> 01:06:23,200
with a lot of the concerns with
homosexuality and some of these

1047
01:06:23,200 --> 01:06:27,400
other sexuality issues right?
Is that, and there are just

1048
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,100
because there are some cases of
people doing some really

1049
01:06:30,100 --> 01:06:31,600
terrible things when they find
it.

1050
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,800
You know, Sun comes out of the
closet says he's gay and then

1051
01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:36,200
the father you know banishes
them and never speaks to him

1052
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:39,100
again and cut them out.
As like there are terrible

1053
01:06:39,100 --> 01:06:45,300
situations where that kind of
thing does happen and That's

1054
01:06:45,300 --> 01:06:51,900
tragic.
But sometimes sometimes people

1055
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:55,700
get into things that aren't good
for them and there's a certain

1056
01:06:55,700 --> 01:06:58,800
amount of maybe guilt or shame
associated with that guilt and

1057
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:02,100
shame attached to that, and it
causes people to withdraw from

1058
01:07:02,100 --> 01:07:05,700
people of their own volition,
and maybe they perceive it as,

1059
01:07:06,300 --> 01:07:10,300
as being persecuted, but the
human nobody's ever wrong.

1060
01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:15,200
The human mind is, is expert at
passing the buck of disability

1061
01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:18,400
and blaming others.
We never see ourselves as the

1062
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:21,300
bad guy in our life story.
Nobody does.

1063
01:07:21,300 --> 01:07:27,400
And so, but in a from an
objective view, I've seen people

1064
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:34,400
that this has led to the
destruction of family, rather

1065
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,700
than a notification of family
separation from family rather

1066
01:07:37,700 --> 01:07:39,400
than a strengthening of the
family.

1067
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,200
And so, that's clearly not
edifying.

1068
01:07:41,900 --> 01:07:47,000
And, you know, By that fruit.
I can I have a concern?

1069
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:48,500
I can see that.
There's a problem there.

1070
01:07:49,500 --> 01:07:52,900
Absolutely yet.
And, and with all these things,

1071
01:07:53,900 --> 01:08:00,800
right, whether it's again the
the who killed Joseph Smith film

1072
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:05,800
or now this let's just stop for
a second.

1073
01:08:05,900 --> 01:08:08,700
Take a deep breath, don't get
excited.

1074
01:08:08,700 --> 01:08:14,800
And let's look at what these
ideas are producing because Is

1075
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:21,700
that will tell you.
What what's really going on?

1076
01:08:21,899 --> 01:08:27,899
That tells the story ideas are
fun, ideas are exciting but it's

1077
01:08:27,899 --> 01:08:32,500
the the fruit that they bear,
that tells the story, if that is

1078
01:08:32,500 --> 01:08:36,200
of god or not.
Yeah, absolutely.

1079
01:08:37,399 --> 01:08:40,899
Well, and I guess one another
angle to this whole thing to in

1080
01:08:40,899 --> 01:08:45,200
my opinion is, if you really buy
into this, it kind of sets you

1081
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,600
up to potentially fail in other
ways.

1082
01:08:48,600 --> 01:08:54,399
In my own life, I have had, you
know, I have had some positive

1083
01:08:54,399 --> 01:08:59,399
powerful experiences with plant
medicine, but long before that I

1084
01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:04,300
had had many more powerful
spiritual experiences in the

1085
01:09:04,300 --> 01:09:10,700
church, in temples. or sizing
priesthood, and even through my

1086
01:09:10,700 --> 01:09:15,399
own, You know, receiving, you
know, spiritual manifestations

1087
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:21,899
in times of need in my own life.
These you don't need some kind

1088
01:09:21,899 --> 01:09:24,800
of a plant medicine to be able
to have this kind of

1089
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:27,500
relationship with God and the
other, the other end, the other

1090
01:09:27,500 --> 01:09:30,700
tail.
The other end of the stick is if

1091
01:09:30,700 --> 01:09:33,300
Joseph Smith was using plant
medicine, then it kind of

1092
01:09:33,300 --> 01:09:36,000
creates this implication, then
that in order to have spiritual

1093
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:40,300
experiences, in order to have
Revelations, then you're kind of

1094
01:09:40,300 --> 01:09:43,100
end up.
Well, I need this then I have I

1095
01:09:43,100 --> 01:09:46,899
have to pursue this, I have time
dependent on some kind of the

1096
01:09:46,899 --> 01:09:54,300
substance now to have a life
full of Miracles and, and

1097
01:09:54,300 --> 01:09:57,400
spiritual experiences and that's
just not the case either.

1098
01:09:58,200 --> 01:10:02,000
Yeah, and I think we sell
ourselves short as well.

1099
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:06,200
If we think that it takes a plan
to do that, right?

1100
01:10:06,200 --> 01:10:11,100
We sell ourselves short, we sell
our God short, that, that God's

1101
01:10:11,100 --> 01:10:15,400
just not powerful enough to Get
through to US unless we have

1102
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:21,700
partaken of some psycho, you
know, psychosomatic drug that

1103
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:26,200
lowers our inhibitions right.
We've put God into a box which

1104
01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:30,100
is something that I know.
I certainly try not to do

1105
01:10:30,100 --> 01:10:34,300
because He's omnipotent, right?
I mean, he can do whatever it is

1106
01:10:34,300 --> 01:10:39,500
he needs to do.
And so I'm with you I think for

1107
01:10:39,500 --> 01:10:43,400
some folks it's It can be
beneficial.

1108
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:46,700
Like, like the guy I told you
about earlier who was really

1109
01:10:46,700 --> 01:10:50,400
suffering, right?
I did see him come through that

1110
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:57,100
experience a changed, man, but
that's a lot different than

1111
01:10:57,700 --> 01:11:03,200
trying to take a shortcut to
Joseph's experiences.

1112
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:10,200
It just doesn't make any sense.
It's a lot like a story that is

1113
01:11:10,200 --> 01:11:12,700
going to be a bad analogy but
I'll give her a whirl.

1114
01:11:12,900 --> 01:11:19,200
It's like a few years back.
I heard I heard a couple of well

1115
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:22,900
I shouldn't say I heard I know
for a fact there were a couple

1116
01:11:22,900 --> 01:11:28,100
of kids at BYU who just so they
could have marital relations,

1117
01:11:28,700 --> 01:11:35,000
went to Vegas, got married.
Did the deed and then got it

1118
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,800
annulled the same weekend,
right?

1119
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:44,000
And to me, this idea of taking
plant medicine to have that to

1120
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:48,900
have a experience with God as a
lot like going to Vegas for the

1121
01:11:48,900 --> 01:11:52,100
weekend, right?
It just seems to cheapen it a

1122
01:11:52,100 --> 01:11:59,700
little bit, for sure.
Yeah, well and I guess I, you

1123
01:11:59,700 --> 01:12:03,800
know, another interesting thing
too is where If this was the

1124
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,800
case where does that lead the
restoration?

1125
01:12:07,800 --> 01:12:12,100
Because you know, Joseph Smith,
after Joseph Smith martyrdom,

1126
01:12:12,700 --> 01:12:15,500
what happened.
And then did Brigham carry on

1127
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:20,600
these secrets somehow and John
Taylor and some of these some of

1128
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:24,100
the other leaders of the church
doing the stuff in secret.

1129
01:12:24,100 --> 01:12:30,200
And if so why was there a
gradual decline in these kinds

1130
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:35,300
of manifestations in the church?
I mean, I mean, it's pretty

1131
01:12:35,300 --> 01:12:38,800
clear to me and this is this is
what led me into fundamentalism

1132
01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:44,100
was that, you know, the church
today is it.

1133
01:12:44,100 --> 01:12:47,100
Well, the LDS church today is
very different from the LDS

1134
01:12:47,100 --> 01:12:51,600
church, as it was founded.
We should be very careful for

1135
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:54,800
our next few words here.
Justin, I do not want Rusty, get

1136
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,400
any ideas Rusty Russell.
I'm Nelson.

1137
01:12:58,900 --> 01:13:04,400
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, I don't think we need to

1138
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:08,000
worry about that but sure,
unless, unless there's a unless

1139
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:11,000
there's a, some sort of a
pharmaceutical investment

1140
01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:15,700
involved.
But yeah.

1141
01:13:15,700 --> 01:13:20,000
So the that difference, that
contrast, when I really looked

1142
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:22,800
into the and I started ask
myself, well, what's changed

1143
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:24,600
what's different now than from
then.

1144
01:13:24,700 --> 01:13:30,000
I mean you can't really argue
that planet medicine, change

1145
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:31,800
that it was there.
And now it's not and that's why

1146
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:34,000
it's different.
It doesn't That doesn't really

1147
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:38,400
fit, there's no gradual
explanation for how that would

1148
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:43,500
have happened.
But what you do see is people

1149
01:13:43,500 --> 01:13:51,100
that gradually lose faith and
willingness to, to live the

1150
01:13:51,100 --> 01:13:55,700
gospel, having a desire to live
the gospel and live, all the all

1151
01:13:55,700 --> 01:14:00,700
the restoration and that's a
very natural pattern that we see

1152
01:14:00,700 --> 01:14:05,300
throughout history is that That
kind of gradual decline.

1153
01:14:05,300 --> 01:14:09,800
And you know, I mean even that
gradual decline to happen within

1154
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:12,100
our own country where we're at
the point.

1155
01:14:12,100 --> 01:14:16,300
Now of I think I'm on the verge
of kind of a Romans 1 judgment

1156
01:14:17,300 --> 01:14:24,900
in this nation because we have
gradually abandoned our

1157
01:14:24,900 --> 01:14:30,500
religion, Our God, and our way,
our way of life of Living God's

1158
01:14:30,500 --> 01:14:34,000
Commandments, and that creates a
situation.

1159
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:37,400
Now, where we were in the kind
of political messages that were

1160
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:40,600
in and we're seeing Society,
collapse, and Decay and

1161
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:45,100
underneath us, and I, you know,
it'd be it'd be nice if there

1162
01:14:45,100 --> 01:14:47,200
was a simple solution, it was
like, okay, well, George

1163
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:51,000
Washington was on psychedelics
and and we're not today, and

1164
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:54,100
that's why it's different, but I
don't think the real answers

1165
01:14:54,100 --> 01:14:57,800
that simple and there were many
power.

1166
01:14:57,900 --> 01:15:02,600
For experiences that that
members have that leadership in

1167
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:04,900
the church had after Joseph
Smith passed away.

1168
01:15:04,900 --> 01:15:08,100
And if it was at the agents, how
do you, how do you explain that?

1169
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:12,200
How do you explain The
continued, at least, for a while

1170
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,000
they continued outpourings of
spirit.

1171
01:15:14,100 --> 01:15:18,900
I mean, you had drawn the other
day, talking about the, the

1172
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:22,300
Transfiguration of Brigham
Young, right again.

1173
01:15:22,300 --> 01:15:26,900
So what Brigham Young toast,
everybody where does where does

1174
01:15:26,900 --> 01:15:30,700
that end and how did, how do you
explain?

1175
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:37,300
The gradual loss of the gifts of
the Spirit, if the gifts of the

1176
01:15:37,300 --> 01:15:39,900
Spirit are merely, something you
take.

1177
01:15:39,900 --> 01:15:47,100
It's just a magic pill, right?
And also, you ask, you know,

1178
01:15:47,100 --> 01:15:51,000
where does it end?
Well, I think ultimately ends

1179
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:57,900
with, if this sort of narrative
catches, hold it ends with the

1180
01:15:58,100 --> 01:16:02,100
the restoration, really being
just another idea that's kind of

1181
01:16:02,300 --> 01:16:06,900
tossed to the side as one man's.
Psychedelic trip.

1182
01:16:06,900 --> 01:16:09,100
I mean, that's that's ultimately
where it goes.

1183
01:16:10,500 --> 01:16:14,400
You, you may have those who hold
on but that's it.

1184
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:22,400
Or here's, you know the other
scarier part is people who who

1185
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:27,500
go out and like we were just
talking really dive in deep and,

1186
01:16:28,100 --> 01:16:32,500
you know, try to replicate To
the best of their estimation,

1187
01:16:32,500 --> 01:16:36,100
what Joseph did and that to me,
scares me worse than anything

1188
01:16:36,100 --> 01:16:39,700
else.
And and I would caution very,

1189
01:16:39,700 --> 01:16:41,900
very, very strongly against
that.

1190
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:46,200
Don't don't take my word for it.
Go go read a book by Tom O'Neill

1191
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:55,200
called chaos, which talks a lot
about, you know, how certain

1192
01:16:55,200 --> 01:17:00,800
agencies within the government
used psychedelics as well.

1193
01:17:00,900 --> 01:17:02,500
Nip.
Ulation tools, right?

1194
01:17:02,500 --> 01:17:06,000
I mean, it's a frightening
Prospect.

1195
01:17:07,700 --> 01:17:11,700
And that's why when you called
me about it, it rattled my cage

1196
01:17:11,700 --> 01:17:16,900
little bit.
Oh yeah, for sure.

1197
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:24,200
And I mean like I was saying
there's really there's no need

1198
01:17:25,900 --> 01:17:31,500
of these things.
For the, for the gospel to live,

1199
01:17:31,500 --> 01:17:34,800
the gospel to have, all the
blessings of the Gospel to

1200
01:17:34,800 --> 01:17:42,800
receive the gifts of the Spirit.
And so, I think yeah I think

1201
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:47,200
that what were this leads in my
perspective?

1202
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,200
I mean you certainly I think it
does lead.

1203
01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:53,700
It leads to fragmentation you're
going to have people rise up

1204
01:17:53,700 --> 01:17:58,800
with Charisma and you know
you're going to have Cults of

1205
01:17:58,900 --> 01:18:03,300
personality and things like that
that are going to wreak havoc.

1206
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:09,700
But I think you're also looking
at like a gradual loss of faith

1207
01:18:10,300 --> 01:18:14,300
If you don't need ordinances, if
you don't need Commandments and

1208
01:18:14,300 --> 01:18:20,500
laws, if you don't need order to
receive a relationship with God,

1209
01:18:20,500 --> 01:18:25,500
if you don't have to work for it
then, well, I mean, the natural

1210
01:18:25,500 --> 01:18:29,500
human condition is to is to take
the easy route is to take the

1211
01:18:29,508 --> 01:18:33,600
easy Road.
And if there's shortcuts our

1212
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,900
human nature, we're all guilty
of that of, you know, we all

1213
01:18:36,900 --> 01:18:39,100
want shortcuts.
It's not good for us, but that's

1214
01:18:39,100 --> 01:18:43,100
what we want.
I even when Adam was expelled

1215
01:18:43,100 --> 01:18:47,000
from the garden, he's cursed to
have to till the ground to labor

1216
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:50,400
by the sweat of his brow.
And, you know, that sounds like

1217
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:55,800
a curse, but the garden was a
shortcut, but it was necessary

1218
01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:58,200
for his growth.
It was, and it's necessary for

1219
01:18:58,200 --> 01:19:02,300
our growth to do hard things.
And some of those hard things

1220
01:19:02,400 --> 01:19:09,100
are having faith, and working
our relationship with God, to

1221
01:19:09,100 --> 01:19:11,600
have the kind of relationship.
Ation ship and experiences and

1222
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:14,500
see the see those kinds of gifts
of the Spirit manifest.

1223
01:19:16,500 --> 01:19:19,300
And, you know, this is this a
little bit of a personal aside

1224
01:19:19,300 --> 01:19:26,300
but I had a family member passed
away, a nephew not that long ago

1225
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:30,200
and it was very tragic and
troubling for the family.

1226
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:35,800
And and I, you know, I haven't
had that kind of experience with

1227
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:37,400
any of my own children.
So I wouldn't, I wouldn't

1228
01:19:37,400 --> 01:19:40,800
necessarily, I can't relate, but
I can imagine how Difficult and

1229
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:41,700
hard.
That could be.

1230
01:19:42,500 --> 01:19:45,900
And that's the kind of situation
that people do look for

1231
01:19:45,900 --> 01:19:50,400
shortcuts generally.
Speaking they look to alcohol

1232
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:54,000
or, you know, drug abuse or you
know, people will disconnect

1233
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,500
from relationships and family.
Things can fall apart in the

1234
01:19:56,500 --> 01:20:00,500
events of tragedy, but it
doesn't have to.

1235
01:20:00,500 --> 01:20:05,100
It can also be an opportunity
for for growth and strength and

1236
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:08,900
a better opportunity to grow
closer to God.

1237
01:20:08,900 --> 01:20:13,100
And that's what I've seen in my
own, my family is a, you know,

1238
01:20:13,100 --> 01:20:17,000
no need of any kind of
enhancements.

1239
01:20:21,900 --> 01:20:29,200
My I've seen my my nephew's
family really come together and

1240
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:34,500
have had many powerful spiritual
Witnesses and experiences that

1241
01:20:34,500 --> 01:20:41,400
have drawn them closer to God
closer to their Savior and And I

1242
01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:44,400
think that's what we're here for
is to is to do the hard things.

1243
01:20:44,500 --> 01:20:46,600
I mean that's what that's what
Christ had to do.

1244
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:51,500
You know Christ asked even
Christ asked if there's another

1245
01:20:51,500 --> 01:20:54,300
way that this is.
This cup can pass please.

1246
01:20:56,700 --> 01:21:00,800
But at some point we kind of
have to do hard things and one

1247
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:05,700
of those hard things is is
having faith is believing in

1248
01:21:05,700 --> 01:21:09,900
God's promises and being
faithful to the things that

1249
01:21:09,900 --> 01:21:15,100
God's asked us asked of us.
And in my life, my family's

1250
01:21:15,100 --> 01:21:18,100
life.
We've seen many powerful

1251
01:21:18,100 --> 01:21:21,500
Miracles and things like that
that come about through.

1252
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:28,800
Doing the hard things and with
time receiving, you know,

1253
01:21:28,900 --> 01:21:33,000
beautiful rewards, you know
harvesting, what was sewed.

1254
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:39,600
And so yeah, not only just the
destruction of Faith.

1255
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:44,100
It's is sort of robbing us of it
can, it can be something that

1256
01:21:44,100 --> 01:21:51,600
robs us of the the beauty and
accomplishment of having

1257
01:21:53,900 --> 01:21:58,300
Powerful spiritual experiences
that we have worked for that.

1258
01:21:58,300 --> 01:22:00,600
We put in the effort and the
sacrifice is for.

1259
01:22:01,200 --> 01:22:04,800
And if that's another thing
that's that's in my opinion,

1260
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:08,000
somewhat tragic if that's where
somebody ends up.

1261
01:22:09,900 --> 01:22:13,200
Yeah.
Yeah as a guy who screwed around

1262
01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:16,500
with a lot of different
substances before I you know,

1263
01:22:17,200 --> 01:22:22,400
accepted the gospel There is no
substitute.

1264
01:22:23,500 --> 01:22:29,800
Four.
For a coherent spiritual

1265
01:22:29,800 --> 01:22:37,600
experience.
One in which you can't walk away

1266
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:41,700
from it saying, well maybe it
was something I ate or drank.

1267
01:22:42,800 --> 01:22:46,600
Where you have to say.
Oh, that was real.

1268
01:22:47,800 --> 01:22:53,500
That was real.
And those are the kind of

1269
01:22:53,500 --> 01:22:58,000
experiences that we all have to
work for.

1270
01:22:58,100 --> 01:23:00,600
We all have to put ourselves in
that.

1271
01:23:02,100 --> 01:23:06,400
In that right frame of mind.
And in that correct way of

1272
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:11,800
living to achieve, but in some
ways I think that's what makes

1273
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:16,700
those experiences so much
sweeter and so much more of a

1274
01:23:16,700 --> 01:23:23,800
reward because in that process
we've learned that, okay?

1275
01:23:23,800 --> 01:23:28,900
If if I do, what God asked me to
do, if I walk up to my

1276
01:23:28,900 --> 01:23:34,700
Covenants, If I put in the time,
if I'm on my knees asking for

1277
01:23:34,700 --> 01:23:41,600
help, he's going to respond and
I don't have to rely on a

1278
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:48,000
substance to get me there.
I think I think that I think by

1279
01:23:48,300 --> 01:23:52,300
relying on a substance to get
you there, kind of cheapens it a

1280
01:23:52,308 --> 01:23:55,700
little bit.
Yeah, yeah.

1281
01:23:55,800 --> 01:24:00,700
Well, and just the whole idea
that opposition in life, is a

1282
01:24:00,708 --> 01:24:03,200
blessing, really, it's a, it's a
gift.

1283
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:11,400
And so if you, if you can just
take a pill and be happy, is it

1284
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:13,400
happiness?
Can you recognize it as

1285
01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:17,800
happiness?
As opposed to dealing with

1286
01:24:18,100 --> 01:24:22,300
struggles in Life and Overcoming
them and finding happiness in

1287
01:24:22,900 --> 01:24:25,500
enjoy and having over overcome
adversity.

1288
01:24:27,300 --> 01:24:28,900
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

1289
01:24:28,900 --> 01:24:34,200
I can speak from sad experience
that If you're relying on any

1290
01:24:34,200 --> 01:24:40,600
substance to just get you
through, that's not a great

1291
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:43,800
place to be.
It's not a great place to be.

1292
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:51,600
so, all right.
What do you think, man?

1293
01:24:53,200 --> 01:25:00,900
yeah, well I guess yeah, I guess
I just would like to, you know,

1294
01:25:01,200 --> 01:25:09,100
my own my own testimony is that
God is there and he's there,

1295
01:25:09,100 --> 01:25:13,400
whether we see him or we don't,
he's Christ, is a part of our

1296
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:20,600
Lives, whether we recognize that
or not and If if a plant

1297
01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:25,100
medicine can help you get a
certain perspective at a certain

1298
01:25:25,100 --> 01:25:27,600
point in time to help, you see
that?

1299
01:25:29,500 --> 01:25:33,600
I'm not I don't think that
necessarily a bad thing, but

1300
01:25:34,500 --> 01:25:38,300
ultimately, we need to be able
to bring that into our Waking

1301
01:25:38,300 --> 01:25:41,600
Life.
Our every moment of our being in

1302
01:25:41,600 --> 01:25:44,900
existence and recognizing those
Miracles, recognizing that

1303
01:25:44,900 --> 01:25:47,500
presence having that
relationship in that connection.

1304
01:25:48,700 --> 01:25:52,500
And so, I mean, if there's
people out there that are, you

1305
01:25:52,500 --> 01:25:58,900
know, interested in these
things, Irish caution a lot of

1306
01:25:58,907 --> 01:26:04,700
caution and I think content
matters a lot and you really

1307
01:26:05,100 --> 01:26:07,000
would need.
I think you need to look at your

1308
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:11,500
own heart and and decide if, if
you're interested in this

1309
01:26:11,500 --> 01:26:14,100
because you're looking for a
shortcut because there's

1310
01:26:14,100 --> 01:26:18,100
something there's something hard
that you're trying to avoid or

1311
01:26:18,500 --> 01:26:23,300
or if if this is something that
really would be beneficial.

1312
01:26:23,300 --> 01:26:27,000
But most of all these narratives
in these stories that are going

1313
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:32,300
out about, this are absolutely
destructive because it robs

1314
01:26:32,300 --> 01:26:36,200
people of Believing these
stories and narratives.

1315
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:42,100
Rob's you of, like I said, Rob's
you of that testimony that you

1316
01:26:42,100 --> 01:26:48,700
can have these things without it
and also robs you of of that the

1317
01:26:48,700 --> 01:26:52,500
joy and sweetness of having
achieved something.

1318
01:26:53,100 --> 01:26:57,100
And most of all, I think it
gradually leads.

1319
01:26:57,200 --> 01:27:03,000
If it, he gradually is leading
to a state of disbelief in the

1320
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:07,900
restoration and And real truth.
And that's, that's really

1321
01:27:07,900 --> 01:27:09,400
tragic.
And that's what concerns me.

1322
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:15,500
The most is that The leaving
these narratives around it, our

1323
01:27:15,500 --> 01:27:17,800
faith destroying that much is
absolutely true.

1324
01:27:17,800 --> 01:27:22,600
Whether or not the medicine
itself is, or isn't absolutely

1325
01:27:22,700 --> 01:27:24,600
these stories.
And these narratives are

1326
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:30,300
destructive to our faith and
destructive to and contrary to

1327
01:27:30,300 --> 01:27:32,300
the truth.
And well it's contrary to the

1328
01:27:32,308 --> 01:27:35,200
truth which is always
destructive to Faith and

1329
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:39,800
testimony.
And there's no, there's no

1330
01:27:40,500 --> 01:27:42,700
positive to that.
There's no good fruit that can.

1331
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:45,700
Come from that.
Absolutely.

1332
01:27:46,500 --> 01:27:51,500
Yeah, I would just I'm like,
you, I would instruct people to

1333
01:27:51,500 --> 01:27:56,100
be very cautious, be very
cautious that you even in

1334
01:27:56,100 --> 01:27:59,300
listening to some of this stuff,
absolutely here.

1335
01:27:59,300 --> 01:28:03,100
The argument, right?
I'm a big believer in the First

1336
01:28:03,100 --> 01:28:05,700
Amendment, right to freedom of
speech.

1337
01:28:05,700 --> 01:28:10,700
Say what you have on your mind.
But that doesn't mean you have

1338
01:28:10,700 --> 01:28:14,500
to believe everything that's put
out there, do your own research,

1339
01:28:14,500 --> 01:28:19,300
look at it, look at it with a
critical eye, and then make your

1340
01:28:19,300 --> 01:28:23,500
decisions.
But at least give Joseph the

1341
01:28:23,500 --> 01:28:28,800
benefit of the doubt that he
was, who he said he was, and he

1342
01:28:28,900 --> 01:28:31,300
experienced what he said, he
experienced.

1343
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:41,100
And the fruit of those things, I
think bear testimony that Joseph

1344
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:44,300
experienced what he said, he
experienced, and he was who he

1345
01:28:44,300 --> 01:28:48,200
said he was.
So, all right, Justin.

1346
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:50,800
This was good, man.
Thanks for coming on again.

1347
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:52,900
Yeah, thanks for having me.
It's been good.

1348
01:28:52,900 --> 01:28:54,400
All right.
Bye everybody.