Episode #206: An Analysis Of The Documentary Hypothesis

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The.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Here we go.

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Here we go.
You ready?

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I'm ready.
Ready for war.

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War.
We're going to war.

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I pray for peace.
But you prepared for war.

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Ready for war?
It's good.

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That's a good saying that needs
to be on a T-shirt too.

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Oh, for sure.
That needs to be on a T-shirt

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for sure.
You know, this, this topic here

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I spent a little bit of time on,
right?

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And I was careful about who I
selected to come on and talk

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about it because it's, it's,
it's super.

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I won't say it's vastly
important, but it is a way that

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we view scripture, right?
And when we view scripture, I

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don't care who we are, we have a
filter that we view it through,

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right?
And, and those filters aren't

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always bad, but it's important
to know what the filter is.

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So we're going to cover the
documentary hypothesis now.

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This will be the first one that
we drop in this series.

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The other one is going to be
with Josh Erickson.

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And that audio is buried deep in
a vault that nobody knows about

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in Missouri.
Because I didn't want to get now

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before you and I had a chance to
talk first.

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Gotcha.
Because I I knew I didn't want

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to do like a debate style thing.
I just wanted two guys who were

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going to put their best foot
forward on where they fall on

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this.
And so you are firmly in the

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camp of the documentary
hypothesis being a thing, right?

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So let's just say yes.
But I think it offers compelling

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things to think about.
I'll put it that way.

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OK, OK, very compelling
arguments.

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OK.
And so you're going to be doing

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the pro and then Joshua will be
doing, Joshua Erickson will be

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doing next week will be doing
the kind of critique of the of

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the documentary hypothesis.
Yeah, I mean, I suppose so.

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Right.
Yeah.

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And I'm not, I didn't go to
school for this or anything.

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So this is just all the things
that I've thought about, right?

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And we're just going to see
what's interesting.

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So.
So that's my take on it.

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Start out here.
What is the?

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Documentary hypothesis.
So the documentary hypothesis

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was first given in its first
original format, probably late

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19th century.
And it's like in the realm of

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source critical Bible
scholarship, I think is what

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you'd call that and.
Source critical.

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What do you mean?
Like you're going in and

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reading.
So like, for example, let's say

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like evangelical and Protestant
Christians look at the Bible and

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this is like God made this like,
but almost like God handed it to

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to mankind, Like he handed the
10 commandments to Moses kind of

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a situation versus like, let's
look at this academically.

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Let's see if we can find
traditions in it.

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Let's see if we can find like
what the literary devices are

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rhetorical devices, you know,
like really, you know, it's like

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going to college, you know, and
breaking down the text, finding

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the themes that are overlooked,
Right.

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OK, things like that.
Source critical.

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And I think that there's a lot
of thought provoking insight

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there.
I think it's valid to to think

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in those dimensions and not just
accept blindly on faith or on

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tradition.
Right.

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And I speak personally about
myself.

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I think I'm kind of personally
my own.

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The way I view my faith is
there's a pretty even tension

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between the logical, skeptical
side and like the zealous,

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right, You know, crusader by,
you know.

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I think that's extremely I think
that's a real good way to look

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at you're, you're very self
aware there, which I always

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appreciate, right?
Like I tend to be the guy who

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who wants it to be literal.
And I know that sometimes that

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can lead me down some paths if
I'm not careful with with with

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that right and check it at
times, right.

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I I like, maybe it's just
because I'm lazy.

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I like, I like it spelled out
for me, right.

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And so I, I, I see where you
come from, but no, that, that is

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an apartment description of you.
I I would agree with that 100%.

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And so the documentary
hypothesis as it was first

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formulated was I, and I think it
was Julius Welhausen or

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Welhausen was basically his
theory was there were four

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complete texts that he discerned
that made-up the Old Testament

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as we know it and you call it.
There's the J text, the E text

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or E source, J source, the D
source, and the P source, which

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is J for Yaoist, E for Eloist, P
for Priestly, and D for

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Deuteronomist and PP is for
Priestly.

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OK.
And so the weaknesses of the

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documentary hypothesis are the
act like that model, that

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original model have like it was
accepted for like over 100 years

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as like that was pretty much
like the written law in

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universities as far as like it
was like this is fact.

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And within recent terms, it's
kind of been disavowed in the

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sense that it's like a not
complete, like it's not viewed

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as complete.
And so that's an interesting

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conversation because the idea
being is, as we mentioned

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earlier, like do we literally
believe the first five books of

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Moses called the Pentateuch were
written by Moses, or were there

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elements not written by Moses?
You know?

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And so Wellhausen postulates
that J&E came together around

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the 8th century, so 720 BC or
so, right?

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And then the other sources were
added later and then more recent

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biblical scholarship, and I'm
not endorsing this by the way.

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This is just what bit more
recent biblical scholarship says

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is that even they're pushing the
date to more recent like the

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Bible wasn't really compiled
until after 600 BC, and even a

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lot of it between 300 and 100
BC.

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And and you don't subscribe to
that?

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I've never looked into that.
OK, so.

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You have no opinion.
I have zero opinion on that

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point on that.
Got you.

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OK, that makes sense.
So that gives us kind of the

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formation here, right, That that
tells us kind of according to

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the documentary hypothesis,
there were, there were several,

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I don't want to call them
authors 'cause it sounds like

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it's more than right.
It's a, it's a class people,

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right?
The Eloists, the Yahwehists, the

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Deuteronomists, the priests.
Yeah.

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And J and for those who don't
know, yeah, J, it's, it's called

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in scholarly terms, is Yahwist.
But the J makes a Yah or a Yeah,

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because the Germans, they're all
German Bible stalkers.

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And the even, I'm pretty sure,
yeah, like Jehovah comes from

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the, you know, it's the
Germanized or anglicized version

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of the Hebrew, right?
Gotcha.

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Yep, Yep.
OK.

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And so the the thought is, is
that, and now is this just the

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five books of Moses or does this
stretch into like kings and.

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So, yeah, the, there's a with
the, so there's the documentary

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hypothesis and then there's kind
of a separate topic, but they're

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interrelated is the Deuteronomic
reforms.

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They think a separate tangential
topic, right.

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And so the idea with the
Deuteronomic reforms is that

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there's a class of literature
called the Deuteronomic history,

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which is considered Joshua
through Second Kings as well.

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OK.
All right.

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And does it stretch into the New
Testament at all?

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No, no, no, no.
So it's just specific to the Old

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Testament parts of the Old
Testament, not not all of it.

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Yeah.
OK.

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All right, So then explain the
hypothesis this way.

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When do they come together?
Why?

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Well, first let's start start
here.

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Why are they apart, right?
What what do we got going on?

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So that's probably.
Why some of the, you know, the

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smart people decided like, oh,
maybe we should take a look at

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this.
And it's not like it's an

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interesting thing from what I
understand is like, while that

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was kind of like the guy that
ruled the school was that

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thought they've kind of wanted
to step back, but nothing

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concrete is like replaced it
with that that much power and

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presence and like that field
like they have.

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So they've supplemented it.
Yeah.

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And so the, the original idea
was like, yeah, the E source was

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there complete, the J source was
there complete, and then the D

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source was complete and the P
source was complete.

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Then you had an editor coming in
and fixing it all together.

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Well, there's no evidence of
that.

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There was a you know, we've
never found E We've never found

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J.
Like we've never found, like

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we've gone through the Dead Sea
Scrolls and found anything

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performing at the.
This is the complete original J

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document written in 700 BC,
right?

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But that doesn't mean to me.
I don't think it means dismiss

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the whole thing.
So the supplementary ideas to

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this are OK, maybe they didn't
exist as complete written

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documents, but they were oral
traditions.

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Oh I see that then came from
different backgrounds.

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And so instead of viewing the
kingdoms of Israel and Judah as

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a unified religion, look at that
more like in the state of our

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world, we have many factions and
groups, and we're kind of

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competing theologically on
certain things.

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Sure, OK, we're in discussion.
And then over time, at pivotal

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moments, there was a synthesis
into the text of the different

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traditions.
And so maybe the traditions of

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J&E came together 1st and then
you had other editors also

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called redactors coming in and
finalizing.

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OK.
But you have several when it

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goes down.
And that could be why some

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biblical scholars think that
what we have as the Old

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Testament didn't really exist
between until between 300 and

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100 BC, Right.
And so an interesting parallel,

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though, too, is to me, you know,
we have an advantage, so to

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speak, with the Book of Mormon
because the redactors are vocal

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and they identify themselves.
Yeah, I guess so, right, Because

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in the.
Bible, it doesn't do that.

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It's a silent redactor.
But Mormon and Moro and I taught

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and Nephi, you know, because
that's when you yeah, like the

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when you look at the small
plates versus the the later, the

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narrative type changes too,
right.

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And so if we can be honest about
scripture and how it comes

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together based on what we know,
like the Book of Mormon is an

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anthology of Nephi records.
And maybe even more so than just

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small plates of Nephi, large
plates of Nephi, we have this

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and this this tradition of, you
know, I think Joseph and Oliver

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are seeing like a cave of
treasures type motif where they

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see that whole cave full of
Nephi record, Nephite records,

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right, right.
And Mormons and Emeroni are

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abridging a lot of history, OK
and right.

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And so that that would kind of
be the model then according to

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the Deuteronomous right now, now
our our are E&J separated

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geographically.
Is that what we're against?

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The.
Idea and some people dispute E

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being legit I guess, but I think
it's relatively compelling from

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the little I have seen.
I didn't have time to dive into

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this topic, but I've heard that
some Latter Day Saints scholars

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are pretty well convinced that
the Nephites learn more E.

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If though, if we, if we can then
compare, then why not compare

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the Book of Mormon on the same
level as biblical source

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critical scholarship and
evaluate those things?

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Like if they're saying things
that seem to be like what we

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would consider and classify as
the E text, and they're like,

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they're saying a lot more of
that kind of stuff, that kind of

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language than the others.
Like that's interesting.

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That would be interesting
because that would be a proof to

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the Book of Mormon if you could
actually tie that there, right?

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Right.
And so it's interesting too,

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considering that the tradition
of E is that it's a Northern

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tradition and Lehigh's family
was from Manasa, which is the

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Northern Kingdom.
OK, so that fits.

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All right.
I see.

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I see where you're going there.
So E is the Northern Kingdom, J

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is the the Southern Kingdom.
Yeah, and interestingly enough,

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you know, you could almost
consider it E being Ephraim and

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J being Judah, even though the
scholars say it being it's

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Elohim or Jehovah, right?
OK, it kind of fits.

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You know, that's kind of how
they break it down anyways.

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00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,760
And then where would the
Deuteronomous come from?

227
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,640
Or are they like a classical
scribe or?

228
00:13:08,680 --> 00:13:12,120
Or other scribes that come in
later, you know, in the, in the,

229
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:19,880
I mean, it's all put in as like
that happened during, let me

230
00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,400
say, after Israel, northern
Israel was destroyed by Syria is

231
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,680
when everyone thinks that was
after that point that the

232
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,720
Deuteronomic reforms happened
under King Josiah.

233
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,160
And maybe there was other
reforms also under Hezekiah,

234
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,720
which is like two or three kings
like a generation before him.

235
00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,200
And so there's some interesting
stuff there, but mostly under

236
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,280
Josiah.
Interesting.

237
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,880
Now OK, so we got E in the
north, J in the South.

238
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,840
The Deuteronomous would have
been scribes, right?

239
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:53,360
So they could have came from
anywhere.

240
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,360
And then what about the what
about the the priestly classes

241
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,760
would have come from the
southern right or the Levites.

242
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,320
OK, so and they would have been
over the.

243
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,000
Temple and their whole thing is
they're obsessed with temple

244
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,200
stuff and they're obsessed with
dates and calendars and

245
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,720
minutiae.
OK, so.

246
00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,240
Anything that would be like hard
to be an oral tradition, like

247
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:15,960
with that idea that we're
talking about earlier that like

248
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,040
these are all oral traditions
except P, which is like all

249
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,680
these details of things.
Like even with like the flood

250
00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:25,360
myth that we discussed a while
back, where it's like finished,

251
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,480
you know, the the arc will be
300 cubits by whatever, by

252
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,760
whatever, by whatever, and then
it will be finished to a cubit

253
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,720
of the top.
Like all those detail, like the

254
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,520
priests love those things, the
idea.

255
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,480
And so like when you have all
those details, that's kind of

256
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,560
evidence to those, the people
who believe in this that like,

257
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,600
OK, that was probably a written
source.

258
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,440
OK.
It's documented.

259
00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,840
Actually documented, not just
thoroughly.

260
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,040
Transcribed, I got you.
OK, so I'm going to sum this all

261
00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,120
up and then I want to move on to
kind of like the evidence for

262
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,840
it, right.
So we have the Elois who would

263
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:07,200
be in the northern kingdoms, the
the Yahweh S which would be in

264
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:08,400
the southern Kingdom.
Yeah.

265
00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:13,040
Then we have the priestly class,
which were the Levites.

266
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,080
And then we have the
Deuteronomous who were

267
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:16,920
essentially scribes.
OK.

268
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:30,200
Now in my estimation, so the
essentially the, the if, if

269
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,440
we're looking at it as kind of
predominantly NS, there was some

270
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,800
rub going on there between those
two groups, right?

271
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,480
There was big rub.
So my question is, is do we see

272
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,000
evidence of that rub through
here, right?

273
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,920
Do we see because?
Because my thought would be if,

274
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,120
if, if the documentary
hypothesis is a thing, I would

275
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,760
expect to see some rub going on
between the text.

276
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,600
You see the rub rubs there?
All right.

277
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,480
There's some chafe, bro.
Is there?

278
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:01,360
Yeah.
Big time.

279
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:02,960
Interesting.
Yeah.

280
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,160
I mean, yeah.
So you have like, one example is

281
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,800
who sold Joseph into slavery.
You know, we talked about this a

282
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,400
little bit.
Was it Reuben or was it Judah?

283
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:16,440
You have different fingers
pointing.

284
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,040
You have the story with Shechem,
which was interesting to me.

285
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,880
I just learned this one.
Like you have one story is like

286
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,440
and probably from the Judah
side, talking about how Reuben,

287
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:32,400
Simeon and Levi was it went and
killed all the males and check

288
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,080
them for raping their sister
Dinah.

289
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,520
And then like in another part it
says that they bought that they

290
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:42,080
bought the land.
Interesting.

291
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,000
OK, you know, so which is it,
right?

292
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,160
You know, so if you're just if
you're not aware of that, you're

293
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,440
going to read over this and not
necessarily see a contradiction.

294
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,320
There isn't, but it also maybe
seems like there could be stuff

295
00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:00,600
like that, right.
Let's see.

296
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,560
There's, I don't know all the
unfortunately, I'm not prepared

297
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,359
on this one.
I wish I would have been but

298
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,760
Aaron and the golden calves is
thought to be a polemic, you

299
00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,920
know, against Levites from or by
Levites against.

300
00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,720
So for example, like what that
we have this people might take

301
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,760
this the wrong way.
I don't know, but we have Aaron

302
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:32,160
making the golden calves at
Mount Sinai and we know how that

303
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:33,960
goes.
It's really interesting.

304
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,000
But do we know how many people
know that a few 100 years later,

305
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,720
King Jeroboam of northern Israel
does the same thing.

306
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:47,320
He sets up a golden calf down in
Rama, I want to say, or a or

307
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,480
somewhere in Samaria, right
where the wherever the capital

308
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,800
was close to Jerusalem.
And then he sets another one up

309
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,880
in the north territory in the in
Dan.

310
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,680
So there's 2 golden calf idols
on the southern extremes of the

311
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:03,800
northern Kingdom and the
northern extreme of the northern

312
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:09,080
Kingdom.
And people think that the story

313
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:13,480
about Aaron actually making the
golden calves was a retroactive

314
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:20,400
story put in to prefigure and
slander Jeroboam.

315
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,400
Interesting.
You know, like, look, he was

316
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,320
such an idiot that he, you know,
he did what Aaron did, you know,

317
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,640
and was who was cursed, you
know, and LED Israel to sin and

318
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,600
as a way to dismiss his
authority as a schismatic

319
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,160
nation, right?
Because he, Jeroboam, was the

320
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:44,440
first king of Israel after
Solomon died and Rihoboam was

321
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,320
Solomon's son.
And all the tribes got together

322
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,760
and Rheubom raised the taxes or
he threatened to.

323
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:53,920
He said, I'm going to raise the
taxes and do all this stuff.

324
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,000
And all the 10 tribes were like,
what have we to do with the

325
00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,760
House of David?
See you later.

326
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:01,960
Got you.
That's when the Kingdom split,

327
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,600
right?
And then the text, the Bible

328
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,840
says that, or it kind of
intimates that to avoid northern

329
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,800
dependency on the southern cult
or the priesthood of the Levites

330
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,040
at the temple which was
established in Jerusalem, they

331
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,640
set up their own altars and
their own temples so that their

332
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,920
people would not pilgrimage to
another Kingdom.

333
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,280
Right, right.
That's interesting.

334
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,040
Is that, is that where we start
getting like, oh, the temple on

335
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,560
that elephant teen idol would
that be?

336
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,200
So that's later, but yeah, and
there's stuff like that where

337
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:40,680
it's like in Deuteronomy, it
says that you should only build

338
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,600
the temple in the place that God
designates.

339
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,440
And then in the Deuteronomic
history, which is in Kings, says

340
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,240
that place is Jerusalem, and
there can't be a temple outside

341
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,480
of Jerusalem.
But then we find a temple in LFT

342
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,240
Island in Lower Upper Egypt,
which is southern Egypt.

343
00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,080
And we're sure it's it's, it's,
it's a Jewish temple. 100% OK,

344
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,920
yeah, interesting.
But it doesn't play by all the

345
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,480
rules we think of with Judaism
either.

346
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:08,880
Really.
How's it different?

347
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,760
Well, if I recall, there's like
other gods involved.

348
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:13,800
Really.
Yeah.

349
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:20,280
And so that's another thing
that's kind of interesting is it

350
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:25,560
seems that there's been times in
Israel where they weren't always

351
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,120
monotheist, right?
And however you're going to

352
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,360
slice that, and some people
would argue, well, that's why

353
00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:33,360
they were always cursed, you
know, it's because they could

354
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,400
get it through their heads not
to worship anyone but God.

355
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:42,040
Right.
But then on the other hand, it

356
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,720
seems to be that the
Deuteronomic reforms were like,

357
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,560
and not my contention, the thing
that I kind of see is they got

358
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:55,480
rid of the idea that God had a
family and they get rid of God

359
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,920
having a wife and children.
Yeah.

360
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,480
You know, it's kind of the what
goes away with that.

361
00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,040
Really.
So so in according to the

362
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,720
Documentary Hypothesis, the
Deuteronomous would have.

363
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,520
According to the Deuteronomic
reform OK.

364
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,280
Deuteronic reform.
They would have moved away from

365
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,320
that into a more solely
monotheistic kind of a thing.

366
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,880
God doesn't have a family.
God is just a solo being hanging

367
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:24,480
out in the heavens.
Yeah, I've heard it called

368
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,480
Yahweh alone ISM.
OK, all right.

369
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,080
Interest.
OK, So what other kind of proofs

370
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,840
do we got?
So yeah, this is interesting to

371
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,640
me.
You know, the compelling thing

372
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,040
to me is the a lot of the
evidence seems to be in the Book

373
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,400
of Mormon and out the gate,
Nephi.

374
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:43,880
Can you hand me the scriptures
right there?

375
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,680
I think I I would like to read
some of this if you're good

376
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:47,640
with.
That I do.

377
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,320
I mean, I hope you're more up to
date on your scripture mastery

378
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,960
than me, because I put I I'll
still I'll do my best to help

379
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,760
you out, but I don't know if I
have I don't have in my notes

380
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,240
handy particular verses.
Got.

381
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:00,320
You.
But we can spend time to look

382
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:01,560
for them if you want.
I don't care.

383
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:08,040
But if you recall, Nephi says
the the he doesn't really care

384
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,040
for the way that the Jews think
or write.

385
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,280
And I'm not going to teach my
children after the learning of

386
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,000
the Jews.
And to really understand Isaiah,

387
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,320
for an example, you have to be
studied after the manner of the

388
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,880
learning of the Jews.
And so like, what does that

389
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:24,520
mean?
Like Nephi does not like

390
00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,920
whatever that is.
And you have to remember Nephi

391
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:32,840
is not a Jew, right?
You know, So and the archaeology

392
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,960
from this seems to point that
like around that time that the

393
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,840
northern Kingdom was destroyed,
a lot of refugees showed up in

394
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,960
Jerusalem.
And the archaeology shows, like

395
00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:44,320
building the, you know,
construction boom.

396
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,760
You got to put and build all
these homes for all these

397
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,160
refugees.
And so the population increases

398
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,800
and we got to make room for all
these northern people, which

399
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,720
could have been Lehigh, you
know?

400
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,480
Is that why the brass plates
were a different tradition?

401
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,760
You know, where there's prophets
like Zenith, Zenith and Noom who

402
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,800
prophesied that the Jews would
kill the Messiah.

403
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,840
But then the Jews didn't like
that, and they killed those

404
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,440
prophets, right?
You remember that?

405
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,560
That's in the Book of Mormon.
I do, yeah.

406
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,440
That's that's like in the very
first one or two chapters,

407
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,200
right.
I mean.

408
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,520
And so Skousen points that out
and I don't remember which work,

409
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,640
but he saw, he talks about that
in in in at least some places

410
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,320
where he says that the reason
that the Jews killed, you know,

411
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,520
the book of Mormons says that
the Jews killed Zenith and

412
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:34,120
zenith and knew them because
they told the Jews that they

413
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:36,320
would kill the Messiah.
Well, why didn't the Jews write

414
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:37,520
about that?
Why don't we have that in the

415
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,080
Bible?
Because they weren't from Judah.

416
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,200
Those prophets were not,
weren't, weren't from Judah.

417
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,720
You know, that's fascinating
because I did AI did a podcast

418
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:51,160
with Ken Peterson, Shut Up to
Ken, where we talked about DNA

419
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,280
and the Book of Mormon and and
he made the point and it didn't

420
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,080
dawn on me like I felt kind of
silly in the moment, right,

421
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,040
Which it's really just kind of
the theme of this is like I have

422
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,720
on really smart guys and I'm
just a meathead here.

423
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:15,280
But like Nephi and and Lehigh,
they weren't Jews because they

424
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:16,960
were from the Northern kingdoms,
right?

425
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,880
And so everyone's looking for
Jewish DNA, but shouldn't expect

426
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:23,480
to find any there.
Right.

427
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,400
Interest.
Yeah, not necessarily.

428
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,600
And so, yeah, you have this idea
that Nephi doesn't like.

429
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,480
Can I explore this just a little
bit here before we before we

430
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:34,600
crank on?
Yeah, Yeah.

431
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:37,880
But they would still offer
sacrifices and kind of the

432
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,160
Jewish tradition, right?
Yeah, they kept the Law of

433
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,280
Moses, so they said OK.
All right, until Christ.

434
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,240
So they weren't Jewish, but they
were adhering to the Jew.

435
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:54,040
They weren't ethnic Jews, but
they were practicing Judaism

436
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,800
according to the Law of Moses.
So let's say this in different

437
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:03,440
terms, maybe let's say Judaism.
For anyone out there, let me

438
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,600
translate that saying it in
different words is like OK, let

439
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,480
me help you me ahead.
Let's.

440
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,000
Say that there was a previous
Hebraic tradition or Israelite

441
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:21,400
tradition or traditions, and
Judaism is one of many as it's

442
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,920
come down to us today, so.
So kind of like we could say

443
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,760
that like the Church of Christ
over in Pennsylvania is a

444
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,240
Restoration tradition.
Yeah, but it's not the same

445
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,800
tradition exactly as what's
practiced in the LDS Church or

446
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:38,960
Brighamite tradition.
Right.

447
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,120
And let's say that Judaism is
apostasy and but it came from

448
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:43,920
something else.
You.

449
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,800
Know.
That had, yeah, that wasn't as

450
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,680
apostate originally, You know,
it came from a source that was

451
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,520
more pure.
And so this is like, to me, this

452
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,480
kind of is a helpful tool.
Like these things, talking about

453
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:05,480
the documentary hypothesis, the
Deuteronomic reforms, and

454
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,360
viewing the Book of Mormon
through this lens is a tool to

455
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:17,400
us to be careful to integrate
apostate Judaism or even

456
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,600
apostate Christianity back into
like our world view, OK.

457
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:25,240
You know, And so if you read
because I think there can be a

458
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,960
trend, you know, to read the Old
Testament or the New Testament

459
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:36,160
and kind of impose that on US
versus viewing it through the

460
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,960
Restoration lens.
OK, so, so OK, so that that

461
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,880
makes perfect sense.
So we we have and, and is that

462
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,720
what the scholarship says is
that a lot of what's going on in

463
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,720
the Southern Kingdom is kind of
an apostate version of the

464
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,120
original?
Oh, I don't know if it's a

465
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,400
apostate of the.
I mean, by definition, I guess

466
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,440
it would have to because the,
you know, the definition of

467
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,600
apostasy is just turning from
beliefs that a person formerly

468
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,280
held to be true.
OK.

469
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,560
That's the literal definition of
apostasy, right?

470
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,160
And so, yeah, it's a reform,
though, you know, to put it

471
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,840
nicely.
And so it's just like an

472
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,400
evolution of theology.
OK.

473
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:21,120
All right.
Nope.

474
00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:22,240
That makes sense.
All right.

475
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:28,560
Thanks for clearing that up.
So, but interestingly, the

476
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,640
timing is really good with the
Deuteronomic reforms because

477
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,080
King, so the story goes, and
this is the important thing.

478
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,200
And you tell me if there's
anything to sniff at here, but

479
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,920
it's kind of weird.
Do you know how old King Josiah

480
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,840
was when he was made king?
No, 8 years old.

481
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,080
Really.
Yeah.

482
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:53,760
His his father Ammon was killed
by a coup, and then he was put

483
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,400
on the throne and things
actually held together enough

484
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,680
for him to do.
But he was 8 years old.

485
00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:58,720
Right.
So he's not really running

486
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,200
things.
No, there's no way.

487
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:00,800
No.
There.

488
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,960
There's someone who's trusty and
trust running that thing until

489
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,280
he's of age.
Well, then when he's like 16 to

490
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,000
18 years old or so, the high
priest goes into the archives

491
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,160
and is like, sire, I found this
book.

492
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,920
It's the book of the law of the
Lord.

493
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,760
And then he gives it to Josiah
to read it.

494
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,760
And Josiah like Rens his coat or
whatever.

495
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,520
He's like, why haven't we been
following this?

496
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,400
And like everyone, all the
scholars are like, that's

497
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,920
Deuteronomy.
And so like, it has a

498
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,440
questionable origin.
What?

499
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,040
What makes him think it's
Deuteronomy?

500
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:32,800
You want to I can do a quick
Google search.

501
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,520
Yeah, go ahead, I can edit this.
Yeah, 'cause 'cause I think that

502
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,360
is kind of a linchpin moment
there, right?

503
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,720
It is, but it sounds suspicious
off the, you know, sure.

504
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,040
That's like, oh, we can do
whatever we want.

505
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,400
We're the scribes and the
priests and we have a weak

506
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,600
ruler.
Like if there's an opportune

507
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,000
moment to do something that we
want to do, like that's the time

508
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:54,040
to do it.
Got you.

509
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:55,320
OK.
Does that make sense?

510
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,440
Yeah.
But let's let's let's look at

511
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,200
this real quick.
OK, so quick search says,

512
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,080
because the text's context
contents, so the book of

513
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,760
Deuteronomy's contents regarding
its laws and its historical

514
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,720
narrative strongly are, are
strongly reflected in Josiah's

515
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,280
subsequent reforms.
So like Second Kings or whatever

516
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,840
this happens talks about all the
changes that Josiah makes.

517
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,600
Gotcha.
And then you can read those and

518
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,560
then go read Deuteronomy and it
would be like.

519
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,640
Kind of think so.
Probably not word for word, but

520
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,320
similar ideas are there.
Right.

521
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,800
And so it's like the question
that needs to be asked, why

522
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,360
weren't they living?
If, if Moses wrote that, why

523
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,680
weren't they doing it before?
Interesting.

524
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,080
And so the and then, but it's
like, well, it was hidden.

525
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,320
The book was hidden.
And to me that's like, that's

526
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,360
suspicious that it was right in
the archives and no one knew it

527
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,720
was there.
Like the 1886 revelation, like

528
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,000
the 1886 revelation, except for
like 700 years, right?

529
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,920
You know, yeah, it's just hiding
in there.

530
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,680
Right.
And then one priest decides to

531
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,960
upload it to the Internet and
hope everyone notices.

532
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:10,920
Check you know OK.
And we can get into what the

533
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,800
reforms were in a minute.
Yeah, or whatever, it'll come

534
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,760
up.
So yeah, this happens in the

535
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,040
days of Lehi like or Jeremiah I
should say.

536
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:23,120
And Jeremiah's prophet prophetic
ministry starts taking off

537
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,960
during Josiah's reign.
Right and contemporary.

538
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,720
With Lehigh, So like I would
wait, this is head cannon or the

539
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,720
way I envision this, you know,
gospel according to Elder Ness,

540
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,280
Lehigh would probably would have
been a really young man.

541
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,480
OK.
Or maybe his father would have

542
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,640
remembered the way things would
have been and witnessed the

543
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,120
changes.
Gotcha.

544
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,040
OK.
And you're probably going to get

545
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,720
guys like both like Lehigh and
maybe even Ishmael who left

546
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,720
Jerusalem, who come from
families who remember the way

547
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,400
things used to be.
And after being led by the Lord,

548
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,480
we're told to leave to preserve
the way things used to be before

549
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:05,600
the reforms.
Right.

550
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,000
OK.
All right.

551
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,480
And so to me, that's kind of
very, it's not a connection, but

552
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,680
it's correlated, if that makes
sense.

553
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,360
Yes, there's a very provoking
correlation to those themes,

554
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,520
right?
Yeah, it's not necessarily

555
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,640
causation.
It's it's more of right.

556
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,680
But also, so now into the, the
whole thing about the Yahweh

557
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,520
alone ISM, you know that like
the Deuteronomic reforms got rid

558
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,960
of Asherah, which is like the
the divine wife or consort of

559
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,600
God.
And then you get rid of the

560
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,560
divine Mother, you get rid of
the Son, right, right.

561
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,760
And then what happens when
Lehi's preaching, when he's

562
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,640
called as a prophet in his more
mature years, his first message

563
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,480
in the 1st chapter of the Book
of Mormon is Babylon's going to

564
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,200
come destroy us.
And he kind of gets laughed at

565
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:58,440
like whatever, dude.
And then he says, repent and

566
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,360
believe in the Son of God.
And then now that we're going to

567
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,800
kill you, dude.
So he crosses a line somewhere

568
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,040
where?
Where where he talks about a

569
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,080
Messiah.
Interesting.

570
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,920
And then you have Lehman and
Lemuel who are like, we know

571
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,360
that people in Jerusalem are
right just because they keep the

572
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,400
law.
So are they Deuteronomists?

573
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,440
Interesting.
OK, you know, or pro

574
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,040
Deuteronomic reforms because
they're not atheists, you know,

575
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,960
as like or just infidels or
recalcitrant children be like I

576
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,600
was right, you know, as you
think growing up like there's

577
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,840
rebellious like no, maybe they
were well educated in the school

578
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,480
that they were brought up in.
That's an interesting way to

579
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,880
look at it.
So, so the the theory there

580
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,360
would be is that they weren't
just like this.

581
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,320
I guess the way it's presented
in Sunday school from an LDS

582
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,840
tradition, it's like Nephi is
the one that goes to church.

583
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,240
Nephi is the one that follows
through with baptism.

584
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,960
Follows the Prophet.
He follows the prophet, he goes

585
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,440
and he gets the fast offerings
when he's 12 and he blesses the

586
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,000
sacrament of 16.
And then Lehman and Lemuel are

587
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,800
the ones driving in the fast
car, and they're drinking.

588
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,280
Behind the trust building.
OK.

589
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,120
But that's not necessarily what
we could be looking at here

590
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,480
according to this hypothesis
here.

591
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,080
It could be looking at it as
they were very learned in a

592
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,840
particular school in a
particular school and that's

593
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,040
clashing with Nephi and Lehi on
what what they believe.

594
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,600
And they're, what do they call
them?

595
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,280
A visionary man.
Oh.

596
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,800
Yeah, and so Lehi and Nephi's
whole thing is more like being

597
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,840
taught by the Spirit in
Revelation versus the law as

598
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,080
it's written.
I think there's a point there

599
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:41,480
right because it never says that
layman and Lemuel are are

600
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,920
pardoning expression pissed
because dad won't let me go

601
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,080
corrals with the women right.
We don't hear of any law of

602
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,320
chastity issues.
We don't hear of any anything

603
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,400
where they don't want to keep
the commandments necessarily

604
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:56,560
they.
Just want to stay in Jerusalem.

605
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:58,760
Interesting.
OK.

606
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:00,120
Yep.
All right.

607
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,760
That's that's kind of
interesting.

608
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,520
All right, I could see that.
Yeah.

609
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:07,800
Anyway, thought provoking in my
opinion.

610
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,239
And then so Jeremiah, we're
talking about him a lot right

611
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:12,199
now.
I do have a verse that we can go

612
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,360
to, but it's Jeremiah 88, I
believe.

613
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:22,050
Let's check it.
OK. 88 you said.

614
00:34:22,210 --> 00:34:26,730
I believe so.
Who's going to get there first?

615
00:34:27,050 --> 00:34:30,449
I got it.
See.

616
00:34:30,770 --> 00:34:34,810
Can't just always count on
attack, OK?

617
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,880
It is that is the right one.
You want me to read it?

618
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,040
Read it.
And then I'm going to read a

619
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,280
different translation because
the King James sucks.

620
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,600
OK, how do you say we are wise,
and the law of the Lord is with

621
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,679
us, though certainly in vain may
he it.

622
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,440
The pen of the scribes is in
vain.

623
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,960
What?
Do you think it means it's kind

624
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,920
of hard on that one?
It I think it's a, it's a

625
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:04,400
criticism that that maybe the
scribes are inserting some

626
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,440
things there.
That's exactly what it's saying,

627
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,760
but it is a little cumbersome
with King James English.

628
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:15,740
Yep, that's fine to get one
here.

629
00:35:26,570 --> 00:35:29,370
I'll just read a few.
Maybe even How do you say we are

630
00:35:29,370 --> 00:35:31,210
wise and the law of the Lord is
with us?

631
00:35:31,210 --> 00:35:33,490
Lo, certainly in vain made he
it.

632
00:35:33,570 --> 00:35:35,690
The pen of the scribes is in
vain.

633
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,160
That's interesting, right?
This is Jeremiah during the

634
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,120
ministry of or the during the
reign of.

635
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,680
King Josiah.
And that's that's verbatim from

636
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,520
the King James.
OK, that's verbatim How can you

637
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,840
say we are wise, we possess the
Lord's instruction when the

638
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,760
lying pen of the scribes has
surely distorted it?

639
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,600
Interesting.
What translation is that?

640
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,480
CEB, whatever that is.
I'm looking at a whole bunch of

641
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:07,800
translations erv You keep saying
we have the Lord's teaching so

642
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,640
we are wise, but this is not
true because the scribes have

643
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,480
lied with their pens.
Interesting.

644
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,280
So in Jeremiah it's saying
something about the scribes have

645
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,400
been been fooling around.
And there's and there's look at

646
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,280
us, we have the law.
And because we have the law and

647
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,400
we follow it, we're wise.
And Jeremiah saying, what does

648
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,960
that matter if you if it's
false, OK.

649
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,800
And the law is Torah.
It's the same word, by the way,

650
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,240
right?
So you could substitute Torah in

651
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,160
for that.
You know, we are wise because we

652
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,360
have the Torah.
What does that matter if it's

653
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,400
been falsified?
Interesting.

654
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:49,600
OK, that's interesting.
I'm trying to look for any

655
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,680
footnotes or anything there, but
there's not much in the the King

656
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:58,360
James LDS version there that
would that would shed any more

657
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,880
light on that.
But it does seem to be saying

658
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,720
that the scribes were taking
liberties.

659
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,520
Right.
And the timing's perfect.

660
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,000
Yeah.
With when that would have been.

661
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,680
Written well, yeah, because
Jeremiah's contemporary Lehigh.

662
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,600
Yeah.
And we discussed how Lehigh gets

663
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,600
in trouble when he starts
talking about the Son of God

664
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,440
again.
We're like, theoretically that's

665
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,800
been removed from the discourse,
you know, of approved correlated

666
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,000
teachings.
Right.

667
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,880
And you kind of get a hint at
where they went with that

668
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,480
because there's, there are
scriptures like that God has a

669
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,040
son.
So how do you interpret that?

670
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,040
And they kind of like view it as
a, you know, Jews to the state,

671
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,600
for example, if they view it is
like Israel as God's son, it's

672
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,440
like the whole nation
collectively.

673
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,400
Gotcha.
Is God's son like the chosen?

674
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,320
You know, Yeah.
The chosen seed, you know, is

675
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,080
the whole nation of Israel.
And it's not like refiguring a

676
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:54,480
Messiah.
Well, and and.

677
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,160
Look, a divine figure because
they believe that they're the

678
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,120
Messiah will be political right.
Right, well, and and there there

679
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:06,680
is like the overarching theme
in, in my opinion, of a lot of

680
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,120
the Old Testament is God is
dealing with a whole group of

681
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,040
people not worried about the
singular as much, right.

682
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,640
It's not to the New Testament
that we get Christ really

683
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:22,040
speaking singularly to people,
right?

684
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,920
So that makes sense.
Yeah, I think so.

685
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,080
You got anything else?
No, I'm ready to move on when

686
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:30,480
you are.
Cool.

687
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,520
Me too.
Another cool evidence is the

688
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,760
brazen serpent.
OK.

689
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,040
In my mind, this is pretty cool.
We're all aware.

690
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,880
Yeah, Children of Israel are in.
I think it's in numbers is when

691
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,600
it first pops.
I think it's in numbers 21 and

692
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,760
the people are wicked, and the
Lord sends snakes and fiery

693
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,760
things.
Fiery.

694
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:02,320
Flying serpents, yes, that's the
way it reads in the English.

695
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,000
Although, you know, for example,
the Stick of Joseph podcast,

696
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,200
just in an episode like this
week, or at least it where they

697
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,720
kind of went into that one and
they're like, well, Dave was

698
00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:15,680
like kind of says two things.
It sent snakes and he sent fiery

699
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,800
things, which is seraphim.
OK, and it gets read as the same

700
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,400
thing.
OK, all right.

701
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,320
But then the Lord said, or the,
the the people go to Moses and

702
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,360
say, dude, we're dying.
We're getting bit by snakes or

703
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,720
poison.
And then the Lord says to Moses,

704
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:37,360
go make a seraphim.
And yeah.

705
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:42,200
And then then it says Moses then
made a bronze serpent and put it

706
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,560
on the pole.
It's like, is the serpent the

707
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:47,480
seraphim?
Maybe.

708
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:53,120
But in any case, the serpent
gets or the seraphim seems to be

709
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,760
represented by the brazen
serpent and it's lifted up.

710
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,600
And then Christ uses that image
and the.

711
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,320
Few years back I started to get
the feeling that we, as

712
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,520
fundamentalists and orthodox
Mormons, we need our own stuff.

713
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,440
Up to now, we've been able to
buy and purchase all of our

714
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,200
scriptures, books, art, and
music from other restoration

715
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,400
organizations, and that's been
good.

716
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,200
But there's no guarantee it's
going to remain that way.

717
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:22,120
Also, it can be a bit tricky as
you scour the Internet trying to

718
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,320
find all the books from your
favorite fundamentalist or

719
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,640
orthodox Mormon authors.
As I thought about this, I feel

720
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,560
like I was really given a
solution now through the hard

721
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,600
work of others, because let's
face it, I'm the guy least

722
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,720
qualified in all the world to
build a website.

723
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,440
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724
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:44,080
Right now on the website you can
see that we have all the books

725
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that have ever been written by 4
authors, including names like

726
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Also very soon there will be a

727
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:55,480
link to buy art and music all
produced by Mormons with a deep

728
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love for the restored gospel.
There's also places for you to

729
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,200
get free resources where you can
find podcasts, videos, classes,

730
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Also coming very soon there will

731
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,080
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can list the events from your

732
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,880
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733
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,800
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734
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,840
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735
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736
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,800
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737
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738
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,920
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739
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:36,040
e-mail at
mormonrenegade@gmail.com and put

740
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1830 in in the title of that
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741
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,480
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from the 1830 Mercantile team

742
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,480
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743
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,800
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744
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affordable and to ensure that

745
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,960
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go to the producer, the website

746
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,880
percentage is only three to 4%
of the total cost.

747
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,680
And that's just so I can pay the
pros that have created this

748
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,240
website and keep the lights on
the website itself.

749
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,120
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750
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751
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752
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753
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754
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756
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757
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,080
sure that we get back out to
you.

758
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,920
Now back to the show.
That's the way it reads in the

759
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,680
English, although, you know, for
example, the Stick of Joseph

760
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,120
podcast just did an episode like
this week, or at least it where

761
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,800
they kind of went into that one
and they're like, well, Dave was

762
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,200
like, it kind of says two
things.

763
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,760
It sent snakes and he sent fiery
things, which is Seraphim.

764
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,240
OK, And it gets read as the same
thing.

765
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,680
OK, all right.
But then the Lord said or the

766
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,920
the the people go to Moses and
say, dude, we're dying.

767
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,000
We're getting bit by snakes,
your poison.

768
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,960
And then the Lord says to Moses,
go make a seraphim.

769
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,040
And yeah.
And then then it says Moses then

770
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,440
made a bronze serpent and put it
on the pole.

771
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,120
It's like, is the serpent the
seraphim?

772
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,680
Maybe.
But in any case, the serpent

773
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,360
gets or the seraphim seems to be
represented by the brazen

774
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:40,440
serpent and it's lifted up.
And then Christ uses that image

775
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,440
and the prophets in the Book of
Mormon use that image as a type

776
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:44,760
of Christ, right?
Right.

777
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,760
And in the Book of Mormon, it's
overwhelmingly positive, the

778
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,200
association of the, the brazen
serpent with the Messiah, right?

779
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,560
And it's like 5 times in the
Book of Mormon that I'm aware of

780
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,000
that they pointed out there
could be more.

781
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,440
And there's like 4 times that
it's mentioned in the Old

782
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,080
Testament and the connotation is
bad.

783
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:13,120
It's a bad thing.
So why are the Nephites using it

784
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:19,040
as a good image?
And when the Deuteronomic

785
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,360
history is like, this is bad
stuff, This is idolatry.

786
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:28,280
And one of the reforms was like,
so presumably this artifact,

787
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,800
this relic that Moses made was
in the temple.

788
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,200
I hope.
Yeah.

789
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,120
In the days of Isaiah, it was in
chapter 6.

790
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,320
In Isaiah, he sees it in the
Holy of Holies.

791
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,080
And then in the days of Josiah,
about 100 years later, Josiah

792
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:49,000
breaks it and says the people
were idolatrous and you

793
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,480
shouldn't offer sacrifices to
it.

794
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,680
And yeah, they're very
interesting.

795
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:00,920
But Isaiah did in chapter
chapter 6 and so.

796
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,480
There's a rub.
And so there's a rub and so

797
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,240
it's, and it's not like animal
sacrifices.

798
00:45:05,240 --> 00:45:06,920
It was incense offerings.
Right.

799
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,680
But here you got Isaiah offering
incense offerings to something

800
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,440
that Josiah breaks and removes
from the temple.

801
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,920
Gotcha.
You know that the Nephites, say,

802
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,400
are good, and the Nephites
really like Isaiah.

803
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,200
Right, right.
Yes, because in fact, Christ

804
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,080
kind of comes and scold them.
Like why aren't these words in

805
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,560
here?
Corona is like, bro, if I had

806
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:30,880
more room on these plates, I'd
write more Isaiah.

807
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,480
It's like the last few chapters
of the Book of Mormon, he says.

808
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,680
Right.
Yeah, interesting.

809
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,520
OK, so there's there's
definitely a rub, right.

810
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:44,800
OK.
Yeah, and the the text of the

811
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,240
Bible says that King Josiah put
to death false priests.

812
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:51,880
And it seems like it makes it
seem like they were Pagan or

813
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,680
like idolatrous or like or like
temple prostitutes.

814
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,040
OK, to and there's some push
back, like I think Margaret

815
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,440
Barker and some others have
postulated that, OK, maybe they

816
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:08,720
weren't that and that's like a
polemic like slander and like

817
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:11,200
maybe they were actually high
priests like Melchizedek

818
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,520
priesthood is, but in our
vernacular, interesting.

819
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,560
And then they were overthrown
violently by Levites by by

820
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:24,040
Levites loyal to King Josiah.
OK, all right.

821
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,880
And Dave Butler points that out
on several Stick of Joseph

822
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,880
podcast.
He's really, you know, hard on

823
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,840
that one he said talks about and
he draws the parallels between

824
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:35,680
King Josiah and Melchizedek as a
king.

825
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,120
And it's like, look at all the
things that King Josiah does

826
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:40,600
when he says the people are
wicked.

827
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,640
Let's go smash their stuff and
kill people.

828
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,360
And then in the Book of Mormon,
Alma's talking about the best

829
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,160
king that ever was.
And when they're when his people

830
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,240
were wicked, he preached
repentance under that right.

831
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:59,920
And he draws the distinction.
But both the Bible and the Book

832
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:03,880
of Mormon both use the term,
these were the best kings or the

833
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,640
best priests that God has ever
had.

834
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:12,200
And so Dave's contention was
like, I think Alma knew what the

835
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,960
Deuteronomic reform said, and
that was actually a plug and he

836
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,760
was taking a shot at the
Deuteronomists.

837
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,040
Oh, OK.
When he said, you know, this is

838
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,800
the best king or the best high
priest that you know that's ever

839
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,520
lived, just like the Old
Testament says King Josiah was

840
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:31,920
the greatest king that ever
lived or there was none better

841
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,800
as a that's what that's what it
says about Melchizedek too,

842
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,240
right?
OK, there was none greater.

843
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:38,240
So So what?
Let me, let me.

844
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:40,000
Stop right there.
The methods are different

845
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:41,440
completely.
Different, right?

846
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,560
Let let me let me stop right
there.

847
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:49,440
And and is is so king Josiah is
the king during the time of

848
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,000
Jeremiah and.
Or Lehi's early life would have

849
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,480
been because at the at the when
they leave Jerusalem, Zedekiah

850
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,120
is king, right?
But like during during Lehi's

851
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,000
boyhood years, Josiah would have
been an older man.

852
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:06,160
Now let me ask this question.
That account of of the priest

853
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:11,280
going in and slaughtering all
the other priests, smashing the

854
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,520
idols, would that have been
before?

855
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:16,480
Or after Lehi had left Jerusalem
before.

856
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:21,600
Before, definitely.
Well, it could have been an

857
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,840
ongoing thing.
Like maybe let's look at it this

858
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,760
way.
Maybe there was a massive up

859
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,640
upheaval beforehand.
But like now it's kind of like,

860
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,480
OK, Lehi comes from this other
tradition and you got to be

861
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:38,280
secret until the Lord tells you
to go start preaching, OK?

862
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,200
And then like you get identified
like what school you belong to

863
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,000
and how they want to kill you.
OK all.

864
00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:45,200
Right, because you're illegal.
Because because I'm like

865
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:48,360
thinking, OK, So what?
What would be on the the brass

866
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:49,600
plates, right?
Good.

867
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,920
Question.
Because I think that would that

868
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,560
like it would be hard for me.
And maybe I'm I'm wrong here and

869
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,040
you can correct me if I'm wrong,
right?

870
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,040
And and this is me, you know,
pushing back here a little bit

871
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:03,200
gently.
It'd be hard for me to think

872
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,360
that Lehigh would have the
entire book of Jeremiah, right,

873
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:10,440
because they are contemporaries,
right?

874
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:15,400
And so this idea that that Alma
would be quoting what was going

875
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:20,360
on in the book of Jeremiah, but
it's mounting on the time frame.

876
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:21,360
Do you see where I'm going?
I.

877
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,200
Do but it's not necessarily that
they're taking or ripping off

878
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,520
Jeremiah because you have like
the Jeremiah, yeah, he has his

879
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,160
own prophetic works, but like,
but it's different literature

880
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,800
because you have the history of
the nation, which is kings 2nd,

881
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,440
1st and 2nd kings.
And then you have Jeremiah,

882
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,840
which is prophetic literature
and they're different even like

883
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,720
if you were to go talk to a Jew,
you have like the the the the

884
00:49:41,720 --> 00:49:44,640
Tanakh, which is the Old
Testament is the Pentateuch, the

885
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,480
first five books of Moses.
That's the law, that's and then

886
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:54,560
you have the prophets, which is
Jeremiah, Isaiah, Micah, Amos,

887
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,560
Malachi, all that's the
prophets.

888
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,600
And then you have whatever the
word is for like Psalms,

889
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,080
Proverbs.
So there's three classes of like

890
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:14,840
literature in the Tanakh, right?
And so the Jeremiah covers his

891
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,960
life, obviously, but like the
history, like the more secular

892
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:22,160
history, it's not prophetic
writings are also covering the

893
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,080
same time as Jeremiah in the
history side, right?

894
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,720
All right, so.
OK, so.

895
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,440
Except for, interestingly
enough, Second Kings, if I

896
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,560
recall correctly, does not
mention Jeremiah even though

897
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,640
it's the same time period.
Interesting.

898
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:41,000
So he's omitted from the history
and we only have his words.

899
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,760
Yeah, Isaiah is mentioned in
First and Second Kings.

900
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,680
Right.
But Jeremiah is admitted.

901
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,240
We have Jeremiah and
Lamentations, right?

902
00:50:57,240 --> 00:50:59,160
They're written by Jeremiah.
Right.

903
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,160
Because do we have an account of
what all was on the brass

904
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:04,520
plates?
I don't think we do we.

905
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:06,560
Don't have nothing, but we have
quotes out of the Book of

906
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:07,840
Mormon.
That's as quote that's as much

907
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,440
as we have you know.
So when when various prophets

908
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:17,200
quote Zenith or Zenos, we have
those quotes like the allegory

909
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,800
of the olive, right?
We have where Alma's teaching

910
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:25,320
the Zoramites to go pray in your
closet and pray over your fields

911
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,560
and pray over your cattle and
pray over everything before you

912
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,920
do anything and consecrated unto
the Lord.

913
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,360
You don't you know the prophet
Zena or Zena said you don't need

914
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,280
to worship in a synagogue like
we have those quotes got you.

915
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,200
We know that would be on the
brass plates or be paraphrasing

916
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:41,760
something on the brass plates,
right?

917
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:45,360
But besides those things we can
glean from the Book of Mormon as

918
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:50,360
quotes, we don't have anything.
OK, OK, Nope, that that answers

919
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,400
that.
I think that that survives it.

920
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,280
But there's a, you know, you,
you ask where it comes from.

921
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:00,120
And it's interesting that it,
you know, I think there's a

922
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:06,320
reasonable case that it was
probably maybe not the E source,

923
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,840
but more close to the E source,
like the mythical E source that

924
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:11,680
we're talking about the Los
source.

925
00:52:12,240 --> 00:52:15,360
You know, if what other Book of
Mormon scholars have said is

926
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,920
that, oh, the Nephites use
language that seem more Elohist

927
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,480
than anyone else, that could be
a reason why, you know, because

928
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,160
they're, they have the brass
plates, right?

929
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:30,040
It doesn't, you know, it all it
brings into question like, why

930
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,240
was that necessary?
Because, you know, why couldn't

931
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:33,880
they have just carried Torah
scrolls?

932
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,280
Well, because it's not the same
book.

933
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:38,880
Interesting.
Yeah, it's not the same

934
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,320
tradition.
So there's something in the

935
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,720
brass plates that aren't in the
scrolls that are necessary.

936
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:44,880
Right.
That were necessary.

937
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,080
And so the Nephites probably had
both or all of it.

938
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,920
They probably had the Torah and
and the brass plates and the

939
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,120
supplement together just like we
have the Book of Mormon in the

940
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,400
Bible and the Doctrine Covenants
in the Pearl of Great Price.

941
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,360
OK.
No, that makes sense.

942
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,040
I see.
I see how that can track all

943
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,200
right.
And so the idea and we have a,

944
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:07,160
we have quotes from Joseph of
Egypt that aren't in the Bible,

945
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,760
in the Book of Mormon,
presumably.

946
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:11,760
I don't know if it might even
say this.

947
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,440
I don't recall off the top of my
head if it does attribute it to

948
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,440
the brass plates, right.
But you have prophecies and

949
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,960
quotes from Joseph.
Where do they come from?

950
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,800
How did how did the Nephites
know about those things?

951
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,560
They're probably written on the
brass plates.

952
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:29,640
So some people have thought it
might even be in Don Bradley's

953
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:36,360
book 116 Lost Pages, where they
pause it that the that Joseph

954
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,520
made the brass plates and it was
passed down through either

955
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:44,720
Ephraim or Manasseh as a record
of Joseph's family, like a

956
00:53:44,720 --> 00:53:48,560
journal that became scripture.
Right, All right, gotcha.

957
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:55,280
OK Nope, that makes perfect
sense it it would and and the

958
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:00,360
part that that is that's a
little madding is we don't have

959
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:02,760
many sources right on on this
stuff.

960
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,000
It's not like we have found the
equivalent of the Dead Sea

961
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,760
Scrolls for the Eloists.
Right, right.

962
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:12,520
But the scholars, interestingly
with my last point, are fairly

963
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,560
certain that all the Joseph
material in Genesis is the

964
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,440
source.
Really.

965
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,600
Yeah, yeah.
And so the first few chapters

966
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:27,520
like Genesis 1, I, I should say
it, Genesis 1 is P Genesis two

967
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:33,120
through like 35 is mostly J,
supplemented by Deuteronomists

968
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:38,080
and priests.
And then after chapter 35, it's

969
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:43,680
heavily E&J mixed.
And all the Joseph stuff seems

970
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:49,040
to be predominantly E OK, all
right, that makes sense.

971
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,600
Yep.
And so that does fit with the

972
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,600
brass plates potentially being
from Joseph, right?

973
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:58,640
And the Book of Mormon being
more Eloist in nature.

974
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:02,320
Yeah, 'cause it there is, there
is that that prophecy in there

975
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,480
about, you know, he shall be
called Joseph after his father.

976
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:12,200
And then the Captain Moroni lays
the title of liberty and says,

977
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,280
you know that this is a type of
Joseph.

978
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:18,680
When Joseph's father Jacob saw
the coat that was rent, he said,

979
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,240
so shall this, you know, because
these remains, I have these

980
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:26,440
remains of the coat, I prophecy
that the seed of Joseph will

981
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,600
remain.
And that's not in the Bible,

982
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:30,720
that's just in the Book of
Mormon.

983
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,760
Right.
Right, but Moroni quotes that

984
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:36,800
when he when he raises the title
of liberty.

985
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:39,360
OK.
So he had access to something

986
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:41,040
that's not the Torah.
Got you.

987
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,560
OK.
Yeah.

988
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:53,520
But let me ask this question.
I imagine that if if if if the

989
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,680
documentary or Yeah, the
documentary hypothesis is

990
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,360
correct.
I imagine that the priests in

991
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:06,240
class would have a vested
interest in nobody other than

992
00:56:06,240 --> 00:56:08,480
the Levites performing
sacrifices.

993
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,440
Correct.
That would be fairly, yeah, I'd

994
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:12,400
say so.
OK.

995
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:16,920
So that's fair.
With that, we do see Lehi and

996
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,400
Nephi offering sacrifices in the
Book of Mormon, right?

997
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:23,160
They're not Levites.
They're not Levites.

998
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:30,760
Now, how do Levites square this
with things like Abraham, right?

999
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:32,640
Yep, that's a big question.
So.

1000
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:37,240
So do we see anything that would
lend itself to say that the

1001
00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:39,440
Levites were then critical of
Abraham?

1002
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:41,600
And there's Noah.
And so that when we went over

1003
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,160
the flood podcast, you know, we
have we we dissected the two

1004
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:50,480
flood narratives and one is P
and one is J and Ji recall has

1005
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,080
no offering sacrifices.
But the P1, the priestly source,

1006
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,800
does not have Noah offering
sacrifice because he's not a

1007
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:59,680
Levite.
Right, interesting.

1008
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,240
OK, so there is a rub there
going.

1009
00:57:01,240 --> 00:57:05,280
On there is a rub.
OK, interesting.

1010
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,480
Yeah.
And yeah, you have even to with

1011
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:16,920
the stuff like the Deuteronomic
reform people, the the D source

1012
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:21,040
is critical of certain things
that other that the patriarchs

1013
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,640
did, like Abraham worshipped in
Groves.

1014
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,680
You know, you ever read those
phrases where the kings that

1015
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,960
were good in Israel and Judah
were the ones that tore down the

1016
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,520
Groves in the high places,
right.

1017
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:35,640
You've read that?
But but aren't those connected

1018
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,400
to like ballism?
Or or.

1019
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,480
The text says that they are, but
Abraham worships in high places

1020
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:44,600
in Groves.
OK.

1021
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:51,400
And you know, there's the he, he
gets the promise at the the oak

1022
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,880
tree of where where he gets
promised by the Lord of having

1023
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,600
each one seed.
You know in the the tree symbol

1024
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:02,600
is a symbol of Asherah which is
the divine feminine which gets

1025
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:04,560
erased by the Deuteronomic
reforms.

1026
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:08,880
Which, oddly enough, shows back
up in Lehigh's vision.

1027
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:11,680
Oh yeah, there are people.
I think it was Dan Peterson or

1028
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,960
whoever the, you know, big
scholar at BYU wrote a whole

1029
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,080
thing called Interpreter
Foundation, yeah, called Nephi

1030
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,240
and his Asherah.
OK.

1031
00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,920
But that imagery pops up all
throughout the Book of Mormon.

1032
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:25,840
And so that was another thing
that they took out of the temple

1033
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,920
too, allegedly was the menorah
was a symbol of the tree of

1034
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:32,560
life, which is at the divine
woman, you know. 3 And so they

1035
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,880
removed the brazen serpent,
which is a sign of the sun, and

1036
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:40,000
they removed the menorah, which
was the which was a symbol of

1037
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,440
the divine mother, and they
removed or broke those things

1038
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,440
from the holy of Holies and or
they broke the serpent.

1039
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,400
And according to Dave Butler,
his contention is they moved the

1040
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,280
menorah out of its proper
sequence into the second room of

1041
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,320
the temple instead of the third
room, which is the holy of

1042
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,120
Holies.
And that's why Isaiah says woe

1043
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,520
unto those that take darkness
for light and make light

1044
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:05,480
darkness is because they took
the light source out of the the

1045
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:10,480
Holy of Holies to illuminate the
darker room and left the room

1046
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:11,840
that was supposed to be
illuminated.

1047
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,560
To be dark now.
Now hear me out here though,

1048
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:16,480
maybe I'm misunderstanding
something.

1049
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,640
Didn't the menorah come into
being during the Maccabee

1050
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,080
period?
I don't think so.

1051
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:23,160
OK.
All right.

1052
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,680
Because I thought that was.
I think it played a part, but I

1053
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:27,680
think it needed that.
It predated that.

1054
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:30,360
OK, all right then.
That's my mistake.

1055
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,240
So the Hanukkah came from the
Maccabee.

1056
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:34,760
That was a holiday because it
was like the miracle that the

1057
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:38,000
they were able to keep the
menorah lit for while they were

1058
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,520
under siege.
Oh, OK.

1059
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,160
That's why I'm getting confused.
All right, The menorah was

1060
00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:43,920
already there.
It was the oil that was running

1061
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:45,480
that should have ran dry, and it
didn't.

1062
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:54,360
OK, check.
Let's see if Jacob anointing a a

1063
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,520
pillar or a stone, which is like
I guess so like that.

1064
00:59:57,520 --> 00:59:59,560
There was another.
It's been a long time since I've

1065
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,000
looked into any of that, but
it's it sounds like having an

1066
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:04,520
idol almost.
But when you erect.

1067
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:10,760
Like a monument in that fashion,
you know, they were called

1068
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:14,120
Asherahs for the feminine
goddess and then Amasaba, I

1069
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:20,920
think for the for the male and
Jacob arex Amasaba at Bethel and

1070
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,680
that's like not allowed, but
Deuteronomists, but he does it.

1071
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,800
And it just never gets like.
It stays in the narrative

1072
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,960
because he does it, you know?
See, and and this is where it

1073
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:38,400
gets tricky, right?
Because I'm like if and, and

1074
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,240
maybe it's my misunderstanding
here of the documentary

1075
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:44,560
hypothesis, but my thought is
based on what we read here in

1076
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:48,240
Jeremiah 8, it says, OK, the
scribes, you're making all these

1077
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,040
changes.
Why would they stop?

1078
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:52,840
And not leave it or not take it
out entirely.

1079
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:55,720
Not take it out entirely, right,
Because if, if you're going to

1080
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:58,040
change something, you got to
change something to the effect

1081
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,840
that no one ever questions
should something else be here.

1082
01:01:01,280 --> 01:01:02,480
Yeah, I don't know.
Right.

1083
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,280
So that's, that's interesting
too, right?

1084
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,000
Because like maybe they were
just lazy.

1085
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:09,760
I don't know, Like I I'm not
sure.

1086
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,080
But for some reason there was an
obstacle that they couldn't get

1087
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,400
away with that I don't know.
OK, I don't know the answer.

1088
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:15,920
To that.
OK, good enough.

1089
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:20,840
But you do have other
interesting things like for

1090
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:27,880
example, I think like if you
were to take this idea that it's

1091
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,840
possible for a scribe to say,
oh, if this happened, let's

1092
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,640
write like this bad thing
happened.

1093
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,880
So let's write in the scriptures
like the Lord had said not to do

1094
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,800
this, and like apply it
retroactively do.

1095
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,840
You see what I mean?
I see kind of kind of like what

1096
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,840
OSHA does, right?
Some dude falls off the ladder

1097
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:49,480
and so the the fix is is to go
back and say.

1098
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:50,680
Why weren't you wearing your
harness?

1099
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:53,760
Right, exactly right.
And then that this so they they

1100
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:57,360
come up with the the prohibition
based on the bad outcome.

1101
01:01:58,120 --> 01:02:01,560
But then you said they they
credit the Lord with saying

1102
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:02,640
don't do that.
Right.

1103
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:04,800
And so like when you look at the
Deuteronomic history, which is

1104
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:09,200
like first, Second Samuel,
Joshua, 1st and 2nd Kings, when

1105
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,240
this is, I know this might touch
a few people in a weird spot,

1106
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:17,360
but I'm just going to go there.
Samuel's like, you want a king,

1107
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:20,520
This is what's going to happen.
He's going to multiply wives

1108
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,240
unto himself.
And it's like, well, that sounds

1109
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:25,080
like Solomon.
Right.

1110
01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,920
Was it because they wrote that
in the history later?

1111
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,200
Oh God, you know, Solomon did
this and like, oh, this is where

1112
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:35,200
we went wrong.
So therefore we have to create a

1113
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:39,160
a mythos for like why we went
wrong?

1114
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:44,360
OK, all right, so there.
So the thought there being is

1115
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:48,840
that we'll create a story around
where it went wrong to show.

1116
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:50,240
Yeah, Why?
Why?

1117
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:53,960
Solomon was bad, OK or whatever
got you.

1118
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,040
OK.
Not that he was bad, but like

1119
01:02:57,040 --> 01:02:59,680
the bad things that he ended up
doing, why he fell from grace.

1120
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,000
Right, Right.
Which, OK, as polygamous people,

1121
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:07,320
we should be maybe more willing
to look at that more closely and

1122
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:12,040
be like, OK, I mean, not saying
that like if you were to go and

1123
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,200
multiply gratuitously under
yourself, all these women,

1124
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:16,360
because just because you're a
king, right?

1125
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:17,760
That's probably not a good thing
to do.

1126
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:24,080
But it does jive with like, oh,
polygamy is bad on a on a little

1127
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:27,080
bit, you know.
But wasn't wasn't polygamy

1128
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:28,760
pretty?
I don't want to say it was

1129
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,320
ubiquitous, but it was fairly
common practice, right?

1130
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:33,840
Even amongst the Levites.
It's in the law, it's in

1131
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:37,120
Leviticus that it's legal.
Interesting.

1132
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:42,560
Just a bunch of contradictions
in there.

1133
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,440
Interesting.
Which, you know, if they're,

1134
01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:51,360
look, I want to say this, right,
This is who does anything else

1135
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:53,560
to try to account for the
contradictions, right.

1136
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,880
Because there does seem to be
some in there floating around.

1137
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:00,040
Yeah.
Yeah, there's another fun one.

1138
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,240
I don't know if I can go deep
into it, but like you have Mount

1139
01:04:02,240 --> 01:04:03,880
Horeb and Mount Sinai.
Which is it?

1140
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:06,560
Oh, that's another.
That's another one of those

1141
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:12,120
doublet things almost where it's
like like Abraham having Sarah

1142
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:14,240
wanted to be stolen.
By which one is it?

1143
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:17,720
Is it Pharaoh or is it
Abimelech, you know, king of

1144
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,320
Gaza or Pharaoh, king of Egypt,
you know, happens twice to him,

1145
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:25,960
but then also the same thing
happens to Isaac where Abimelech

1146
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:27,720
wants Rebecca.
Which is it?

1147
01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:30,120
Or the three separate traditions
that got put in?

1148
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:32,720
Gotcha.
You know, and so like, which is

1149
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:34,760
it not?
Or over Mount Sinai, you know,

1150
01:04:34,760 --> 01:04:38,320
which is you know, why is it
called by different names when

1151
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:39,880
it's the same mountain?
So let let.

1152
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:42,360
Me ask you this.
We do that though, right?

1153
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,760
Maybe Gulf of Mexico and the
Gulf of America, right?

1154
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,040
Or.
You know, it's always been the

1155
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:51,480
Gulf of.
America, right, or, or, or you

1156
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,520
know, then I think, I think they
flirted with Denali on this, if

1157
01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:58,920
I'm not mistaken, or there was a
mountain in oh, McKinley, right?

1158
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:02,440
They they renamed McKinley for a
while and then it got changed

1159
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:08,600
back as far as Pharaoh.
Could Abimelech have been a name

1160
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:11,640
or Pharaoh?
Right like Pharaoh's a title?

1161
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:16,400
So I mean, Gaza is a different
place than, I mean, it's close.

1162
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,120
It's adjacent to Egypt.
It's like, right.

1163
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:20,800
It's really, it's like that
border area between Israel and

1164
01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:23,200
Egypt, right on the coast.
And so, I mean, it's close

1165
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:25,400
geographically, but I mean, I
couldn't say.

1166
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:26,640
Got you.
You.

1167
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:31,000
Know I I wouldn't think so
personally that OK, but that is

1168
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:36,240
the area that Abraham was
sojourning in you know the land

1169
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:39,320
of Canaan and Egypt alternately.
Got you.

1170
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:40,160
OK.
Yep.

1171
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:43,160
No, I'm, I'm, I'm down.
Yeah.

1172
01:05:43,560 --> 01:05:48,080
And you also have the same
stories with like in different

1173
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:51,480
literature, Abraham going
through like the sacrifice motif

1174
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:53,160
and is it, is it Nimrod or is it
Pharaoh?

1175
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:55,960
Right.
Right, Which one is it?

1176
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:01,120
But it's like the same story and
being offered as a sacrifice.

1177
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:04,120
You know, our Book of Abraham
says it's Pharaoh, but like the

1178
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,800
apocalypse of Abraham or
whatever that book, other book

1179
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,320
is, it was it was Nimrod that
plays that role.

1180
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,360
Yeah.
Wanting to offer Abraham.

1181
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:16,040
And that would be, that would be
another Rep right where it

1182
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,720
seems.
Like maybe, maybe and look a lot

1183
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:24,000
of maybe.
I mean, I guess horrible

1184
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:26,080
thought, but maybe Sarah's just
hot.

1185
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:29,480
She's attracting that kind of.
That's that's where people go

1186
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:32,040
with it and maybe that's true.
Right.

1187
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:36,440
Yeah, they would.
I mean, would the Lord really

1188
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,720
need to test Abraham three times
that way though?

1189
01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:41,480
I wasn't right, Right.
No, it it makes sense.

1190
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:43,120
Yeah.
No, I could see that.

1191
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,280
OK.
And like I said, already fitting

1192
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:48,320
with like, how many times does
this need to happen before you

1193
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:50,560
can really say like something
weird's happening here with like

1194
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:54,480
when you go through Joseph and
you know, is it Ruben or is it

1195
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:58,200
Judah selling them?
Is it, you know, you see all

1196
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,080
these doublets and it's like
this is happening a lot.

1197
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:05,840
You know, these doublets and
triplets and all these little

1198
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:07,520
things.
Like there's a lot of details

1199
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:09,000
like that thing would be broken
down.

1200
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:10,920
And so it just makes you start
to wonder.

1201
01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:13,600
What we have going on here?
Yeah.

1202
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,800
And so, and then also going back
to the Book of Mormon, it leads

1203
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:20,920
us to like, say, OK, there's
some other evidence not

1204
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:23,080
pertaining to the Book of
Mormon, but that illustrates the

1205
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:27,120
contents we've talked about
where it does, you know, OK,

1206
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,560
that could fit where we're
talking about why there's this

1207
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:34,400
discrepancy between the Nephites
tradition and the and the Jewish

1208
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:38,160
tradition, although they're they
come from different traditions,

1209
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:45,520
right.
You have a let's see, I lost my

1210
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:46,560
train of thought.
No, you're good.

1211
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:49,320
Oh, the Book of Mormon says that
Moses didn't die.

1212
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,640
Right.
But Deuteronomy does, which also

1213
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:57,600
the main theme of this idea of
the documentary hypothesis is

1214
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:02,080
like, OK, Moses didn't write the
first all of the Torah, you

1215
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:03,680
know, how could he have written
that?

1216
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,360
He died.
Someone else would have had to

1217
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,600
have written that right?
Gotcha.

1218
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:13,280
And furthermore, Deuteronomy
continues after the camp of

1219
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:17,399
Israel crosses the Jordan, but
Moses never crossed the Jordan,

1220
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:19,720
so how could he?
How could he have written the

1221
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,800
things that they did and saw at
that part of the narrative?

1222
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:26,840
Right.
You know, right?

1223
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,479
Moses was the most meek man that
ever lived.

1224
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:34,760
Did he write that?
You know that's.

1225
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,120
Right.
No, that's it.

1226
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:40,120
That's a good point.
That's a good point.

1227
01:08:41,399 --> 01:08:44,560
OK, the censor, you know, we've
all laughed at that, that

1228
01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,680
scripture where it's like,
that's not, that's like the most

1229
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:49,760
opposite thing that a meek man
would say, write about himself

1230
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:52,160
saying I'm the most meek man
that ever lived, Right, right.

1231
01:08:52,359 --> 01:08:53,920
Right.
Yeah, that's that.

1232
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:56,960
That's a pompous piety that I
like to talk about.

1233
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:59,319
Yeah, humble bragging.
Right.

1234
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:07,680
There's different views
theologically on like the nature

1235
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:12,840
of God between like like within
the Bible itself, right that I

1236
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:17,560
think it lends support to this.
For example, parts of the Bibles

1237
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:22,279
like Moses saw God face to face
and spoke to him as a man and

1238
01:09:22,279 --> 01:09:24,399
that's usually the yallest
source by the way.

1239
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:29,960
Like when the Bible describes
God as anthropomorphic meaning

1240
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:34,279
in the form of a man and in the
likeness of a man and corporeal.

1241
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:41,840
That's J normally, but then D
the D sources like no man can

1242
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,840
see God.
And so when you get to the book

1243
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:48,880
of Deuteronomy and like
back-to-back chapters in one

1244
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:51,520
chapter it's like Moses saw God
face to face.

1245
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:55,640
You have an explanation later,
but he really didn't see God

1246
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,640
face to face.
He only saw, you know, his

1247
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,600
backside.
It says, you know, they never,

1248
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,640
you know, because no man can see
God and live.

1249
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,720
You know, and then you have that
that tradition is carried over a

1250
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:10,400
little bit into the into the New
Testament where it's John says,

1251
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:13,240
you know, as it comes down to
us.

1252
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:15,840
In any case, no man can see God
the father and live.

1253
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:20,000
No man can.
No man can see God at any time

1254
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,160
save the Son.
Reveal of him is what John says

1255
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:27,400
interest, you know, and so you
have two different views on the

1256
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:33,960
nature of God within the Bible
or more, you know, and so I

1257
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,760
think you can chalk that up to
different traditions and how

1258
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:40,160
they viewed God and his
relationship to humanity.

1259
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:43,160
Right.
And that explains the seeming

1260
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:47,600
contradictions that would make
sense.

1261
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:54,000
So, so we, we have this
apparently this anthropomorphic

1262
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,640
view of God, right?
Which I think Mormons would fall

1263
01:10:56,640 --> 01:11:00,040
under that, right?
Because Joseph talks about being

1264
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:01,520
able to see him in his first
vision.

1265
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:04,800
Now that's a vision, right?
And I want to get, get that

1266
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:09,320
clear that the word vision, like
Mormonism is different in terms

1267
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:13,640
of there's visitations and then
there's visions, right?

1268
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:18,800
Visions, I think are open to
anybody, right that visitation,

1269
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:23,600
we know from some deeper
doctrine, take some stuff right

1270
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:25,160
you, you got to be prepared for
that.

1271
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:29,400
So when, when you when we start
talking about this could, could

1272
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:31,800
that be some of the stuff that's
at play here a little bit?

1273
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:35,600
So some of the scholars have
thought that.

1274
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:40,560
So like when you compare E to J
on that topic, E is more like

1275
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:45,960
God communicates through angels,
through prophets and visions and

1276
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:50,320
J's like you can see God and
he's a male.

1277
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:55,080
Interesting.
See that that so?

1278
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:56,680
Could it be both?
Sure.

1279
01:11:58,000 --> 01:11:59,360
I'm not saying it's one or the
other.

1280
01:11:59,440 --> 01:12:02,320
I think all of that can happen.
Yeah, because I would think

1281
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,200
because it seems out of place
for me, right as I'm thinking

1282
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:08,960
about it, right, Because
predominantly the priestly

1283
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,480
class, the, the, the Levites are
going to come from the South,

1284
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:12,560
right?
Because they're hanging out

1285
01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,840
around the temple.
Yeah, a lot of them would be.

1286
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:19,760
Anyways, there there was a few
Levites who stuck up north for

1287
01:12:19,760 --> 01:12:22,400
sure, or people who were or one
of the charges against the

1288
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:24,920
Northern Kingdom was that by the
South.

1289
01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:27,720
The charge against them by the
South was that they took the

1290
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:30,640
common people and made them
Levites, whatever that means.

1291
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:36,040
That's interesting, right?
Like is that unsanctioned

1292
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,000
priesthood delivery, right.
Like there's, there's some

1293
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:40,880
things there to think about on
that one.

1294
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:48,600
Yeah, there are.
And and that would, yeah, that's

1295
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:50,080
interesting.
But the narrative also, if I

1296
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:52,080
don't recall, if I recall
correctly, it's been a few years

1297
01:12:52,080 --> 01:12:53,680
since I've read that part of the
Old Testament.

1298
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:56,640
When the Kingdom split, a lot of
the Levites that were in the

1299
01:12:56,640 --> 01:13:00,920
north moved to the South.
Oh, so then you'd have kind of

1300
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:05,320
like a cross pollenization of
ideas that would infiltrate the

1301
01:13:05,320 --> 01:13:08,960
priestly, priestly class.
Well, I don't think you can

1302
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:11,320
necessarily discount that idea
either, right?

1303
01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:15,000
Because we know that not all of
the Pharisees or all of the

1304
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:17,480
Sadducees were all against
Jesus, right?

1305
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:22,920
We have Joseph of Arimathea, who
I believe is a Pharisee, right?

1306
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:25,000
Or is he a Sadducee?
Would not be a Sadducee.

1307
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:27,320
He'd be a Pharisee more than
likely.

1308
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:31,280
Yeah, OK.
Who seems to be really on board

1309
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:33,240
with Joseph?
I mean, not Jesus, right,

1310
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:36,680
Because he, it's him that offers
up his tomb for Christ.

1311
01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:38,200
Yeah.
And there's some thoughts that

1312
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:42,520
they were related to.
You know, that's interesting.

1313
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:49,880
OK, So but but Jesus would have
came from that southern Kingdom

1314
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:53,880
as well.
Well, he grew up in Galilee,

1315
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:55,960
which is the north.
Yeah, it is the north.

1316
01:13:56,440 --> 01:13:59,400
OK, Big time North.
Interesting.

1317
01:13:59,440 --> 01:14:01,960
You know by that time Rome is
that conquered the whole world

1318
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:05,280
practically.
And so you had like tet sharks,

1319
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:06,880
which I think that was like
divided.

1320
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:09,560
The whole land was divided into
like 4 different areas, right.

1321
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:17,760
And so Galilee was a different
governorship or like

1322
01:14:17,760 --> 01:14:20,000
protectorate than Judea was.
OK.

1323
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:24,480
And Galilee is like in the
northern extreme of what the

1324
01:14:24,480 --> 01:14:28,160
northern Kingdom was.
And Judah of the more ancient

1325
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,880
days would be Judea under Rome.
OK.

1326
01:14:31,160 --> 01:14:32,920
All right.
That makes sense.

1327
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:34,560
And so Jesus is during his
ministry.

1328
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,520
He's traveling between.
Between the Northern and the

1329
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:38,720
Southern kingdoms.
Right.

1330
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:39,520
OK.
What?

1331
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:41,720
They would have been right.
Yeah.

1332
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:44,560
Interesting.
So he was born in Bethlehem,

1333
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:47,760
which is South of Jerusalem.
But he was raised and his family

1334
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:50,480
came from the north and he was
raised in the north.

1335
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:56,360
So do we ever find a spot at
which the E voice is completely

1336
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:57,560
drowned out?
Right.

1337
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:01,360
Do we get to a book in the Bible
where either one of the J or the

1338
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:09,680
E source is essentially yeah non
existent anymore?

1339
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:12,680
I mean, so Genesis from what I
the little I've read, like

1340
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:16,880
Genesis 2 is all J, yeah,
practically, maybe some P as

1341
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:19,960
well, but no E, right?
Like E doesn't start really

1342
01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:30,880
until 35 I want to say.
And one of the tell tale signs

1343
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:36,720
of E if I understand correctly
is they like to use the word

1344
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:42,360
Elohim for God instead of
Jehovah until like Exodus 3

1345
01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:47,200
where you have in the narrative
where God reveals his name as

1346
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:50,040
Jehovah to Moses.
So then he will start using

1347
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:53,440
Jehovah as well.
Now there's a conjunction there

1348
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:55,080
at some point too, where that
becomes.

1349
01:15:55,440 --> 01:15:58,440
Both Jehovah, Elohim, Lord God
in our capital letters.

1350
01:15:58,480 --> 01:16:01,080
Right.
Interesting.

1351
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:06,880
So there's a rub going on with
the very nature of God here.

1352
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:12,600
Very much so, yeah.
And then is there ever?

1353
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:15,880
Is there ever a place at which
this seems to get rectified

1354
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:20,160
right, or does it always seem to
be this rub throughout the the

1355
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:23,280
Old Testament?
And I think that one narrative,

1356
01:16:23,320 --> 01:16:27,000
one editor tries to rectify it
by saying Moses didn't really

1357
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,600
see God right after it says that
he saw God.

1358
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:36,120
You know, there's that element,
but you also have, I don't know

1359
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:39,080
if it ended up being rectified,
but you see the illustration of

1360
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:42,040
different like attitudes of God,
I think, which kind of explained

1361
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:44,680
why some people look at the Old
Testament and they're like, this

1362
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:48,120
is a mess of contradictions
where, you know, God's behavior

1363
01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:53,960
is kind of erratic to them seem
like he treats some people more

1364
01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:59,320
harsh or, or his his level of
knowledge is even different.

1365
01:16:59,440 --> 01:17:02,960
I've seen that where it's like,
does God know all or is he

1366
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:06,360
changing his mind?
You know, you have several

1367
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:10,600
things where it's like God
repented himself that this or

1368
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:16,200
like when is when he's trying to
lead Israel out of Egypt and he

1369
01:17:16,200 --> 01:17:19,200
gets so frustrated at some point
where he says to Moses,

1370
01:17:19,200 --> 01:17:22,200
basically, this is my words.
You know, you go down there and

1371
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:25,400
chill out while I figure out
what to do with you, right?

1372
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:28,440
That kind of language, like, I
don't know, like what I'm going

1373
01:17:28,440 --> 01:17:30,280
to do.
So like not not the omniscient

1374
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:31,800
God.
Got you.

1375
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:36,760
Motif.
Well, there, there does seem to

1376
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:38,680
be a part in the Old Testament,
right?

1377
01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:42,760
And I believe it's Numbers.
Don't quote me on this, maybe

1378
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:47,320
it's still Exodus, but the Lord
definitely seems to allow Moses

1379
01:17:47,320 --> 01:17:50,520
to plead.
See for the people right where

1380
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:53,280
where Moses is like you don't do
want to do this is.

1381
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:56,480
Yeah, because God tells them,
OK, Moses, stand back.

1382
01:17:56,480 --> 01:17:58,760
I want to wipe them out and I
want to start over with you, and

1383
01:17:58,760 --> 01:18:00,320
I'll make you a mighty nation,
right?

1384
01:18:00,680 --> 01:18:03,960
And Moses says, what will all
the other nations say, right?

1385
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:06,720
That you just LED us out of
Egypt just to kill us.

1386
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:12,200
Right, right.
And there you find that that

1387
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:15,080
again, it seems to be a more
anthropomorphic God in that

1388
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:15,720
scenario.
Right.

1389
01:18:15,720 --> 01:18:21,200
And with with Abraham talking to
God over Sodom and Gomorrah,

1390
01:18:22,240 --> 01:18:25,480
that's a that's AI don't recall.
It's either J or E, you know,

1391
01:18:25,480 --> 01:18:29,200
and it's, I think it's J and
it's opposed to the way that God

1392
01:18:29,200 --> 01:18:32,880
seems to act in other instances.
You know, I've seen that noted

1393
01:18:32,960 --> 01:18:34,240
in some of the stuff that I've
read.

1394
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:36,720
Gotcha.
OK.

1395
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:40,400
No, I, that all makes sense.
So we have that rubbed there

1396
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:42,640
with the with with the very
nature of deity.

1397
01:18:45,480 --> 01:18:47,320
That's fascinating.
OK, what else you got?

1398
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,200
The Jews don't believe in the
devil.

1399
01:18:53,360 --> 01:18:56,840
Really.
No, they don't, not really.

1400
01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:58,840
And there's different schools of
Judaism.

1401
01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:02,280
But if you were to ask.
So this is really interesting

1402
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:04,320
because this gets more into
metaphysics, right?

1403
01:19:05,960 --> 01:19:14,000
But like your most like modern,
the more general view of Judaism

1404
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:18,240
today through like rabbinical
Judaism is they have the

1405
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:21,680
metaphysical view of the
universe of being like I think

1406
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:23,000
it.
How would you pronounce that?

1407
01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:25,640
Monistic or monistic?
Monastic.

1408
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:30,160
No, no, not monastic like in a
monastery, but monism or monism.

1409
01:19:30,160 --> 01:19:33,040
Oh, OK, Like Mono.
Right one.

1410
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:38,160
One And so God is the one, and
all good and all evils

1411
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:41,920
attributed to it.
And so where it says that God

1412
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:46,280
hardened Pharaoh's heart, you
know it has, because there's no

1413
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:51,880
devil you know God is in charge
of doing good or evil.

1414
01:19:52,000 --> 01:19:55,320
Well, and it does seem to fly in
the face of what Joseph tells

1415
01:19:55,320 --> 01:19:57,520
us.
God granted to man, which was

1416
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:01,280
free will, right?
I mean that the Lord's going to

1417
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:02,840
be like, now he doesn't get his
free will.

1418
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:04,920
I'm going to harden his heart
for him, right?

1419
01:20:05,440 --> 01:20:08,880
And so then you have another
traditions like Manichaeism and

1420
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:14,600
like Gnosticism, it's dualism.
So not mono, it's dual and

1421
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:20,080
there's like it's Zoroastrianism
is another religion that's a

1422
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:23,840
dualistic where there's a good
God and there's an evil God.

1423
01:20:24,520 --> 01:20:27,080
And so some scholars, and this
is kind of an off topic from

1424
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:30,560
like what we've been talking
about in a way where it's, it's

1425
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:34,640
not documentary hypothesis or
Deuteronomic reforms, but the

1426
01:20:34,640 --> 01:20:39,560
idea that like some scholars
have said that Jews, some and

1427
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:44,520
Christianity were influenced by
Israel's contact with Persia.

1428
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:48,240
And that's where the devil
really comes from because their

1429
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:51,400
religion was dualistic.
And that's where we get the

1430
01:20:51,440 --> 01:20:55,720
devil from, is that there's an
evil counterpart to God, right?

1431
01:20:56,200 --> 01:21:00,160
And like, and it kind of solves
the problem of like, where does

1432
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:01,960
evil come from?
Because we don't want to

1433
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:03,440
attribute it to a good God,
right?

1434
01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:08,640
Right now that would be for more
of a more the purely scholarly,

1435
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:10,480
almost atheistic point of view
though.

1436
01:21:10,480 --> 01:21:15,480
Right, 100 percent, 100%.
But Lehi in the book of Mormons,

1437
01:21:15,480 --> 01:21:19,440
like according to the things I
have read, I suppose that an

1438
01:21:19,440 --> 01:21:21,840
Angel fell from heaven and
became the devil.

1439
01:21:22,840 --> 01:21:24,200
Where is that in the Old
Testament?

1440
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:26,960
It's not in there, right?
Go ask a modern Jew right now

1441
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:30,120
about what the devil is or like,
Oh, or you go to him with a

1442
01:21:30,120 --> 01:21:34,080
Christian worldview and well,
the devil's right there in the

1443
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:38,280
first in the, in the 3rd chapter
of the book, you know, Genesis 3

1444
01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:40,480
comes as a serpent and tempts
Adam and Eve.

1445
01:21:40,480 --> 01:21:43,760
And the Jew will say it doesn't
say that this is the serpent.

1446
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:49,320
It's not the devil Interesting.
So yeah so so according to

1447
01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:54,760
modern rabbinical tradition then
their their answer would be no.

1448
01:21:54,760 --> 01:21:59,600
It was just a serpent who was
hanging out in the garden and

1449
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:04,200
and tempted Eve.
It's it's not a someone who's

1450
01:22:04,200 --> 01:22:05,760
done something similar
someone's.

1451
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:09,360
Not a fallen Angel, right?
Not a fallen Angel necessarily.

1452
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:13,280
That would be viewed as like a
later Christian interpretation,

1453
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:13,840
kind of a.
Thing.

1454
01:22:14,560 --> 01:22:17,840
But they would say, yeah, like
their idea, they would reject

1455
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:19,560
the idea.
The Jews would reject the idea

1456
01:22:19,560 --> 01:22:23,440
of the Christian concept of the
devil as a fallen Angel.

1457
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:28,200
Their version, like Satan exists
as a word like, ha, Satan, the

1458
01:22:28,200 --> 01:22:31,480
Satan.
Like, you know, you could say

1459
01:22:31,480 --> 01:22:35,560
like Peter is called Satan, like
Christ, you know, get thee

1460
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:38,640
behind me, Satan.
It's an adversary and it can be

1461
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:42,120
applied to anything.
Anyone that's an adversary is a

1462
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:46,920
Satan, right?
And so, but you go look in Job,

1463
01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:49,080
if you talk to the Jew about
Job, they'll say, well, that

1464
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:53,880
Satan was an Angel, not a fallen
Angel necessarily.

1465
01:22:54,400 --> 01:22:58,640
But the way that God works under
like the, the monistic

1466
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:05,240
metaphysical view is that God
needs a prosecuting attorney

1467
01:23:05,800 --> 01:23:07,720
that's leveling charges against
us.

1468
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:12,960
And that's the role that an
Angel is designated to play as a

1469
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:19,560
Satan, as a prosecuting attorney
to like charge US against our,

1470
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:22,760
our infidelity to the law.
Interesting.

1471
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:26,760
And so that's the function.
But he's actually under God.

1472
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:29,560
You see what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.

1473
01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:31,400
He's, he's part of the political
system.

1474
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:34,280
He's but yeah, it's, it's it's
very much a judicious system,

1475
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:35,400
right?
They are.

1476
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:39,760
There's a prosecutor and then
there is a defense, right.

1477
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:42,880
And then God's going to be the
judge on the stand.

1478
01:23:42,960 --> 01:23:44,600
Yep.
Interesting.

1479
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:48,200
But Lehi says something
different.

1480
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:51,240
He settles a fallen Angel, and I
know it was an Angel who was in

1481
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:54,040
the up there with God and he
fell, right.

1482
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:57,560
And so now we're like.
Which is interesting.

1483
01:23:57,560 --> 01:23:59,960
Where did that come from and why
is that not in the Bible?

1484
01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:02,080
Because the brass plates
probably had a different

1485
01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:04,760
tradition.
And the scholars will say and

1486
01:24:04,800 --> 01:24:07,760
agree with this interpretation
that like, Oh yeah, that's a

1487
01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:10,360
later Christian idea.
Well, maybe it's not a later

1488
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:12,040
Christian idea.
Maybe the Christian just got it

1489
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:13,720
right.
Right.

1490
01:24:14,360 --> 01:24:15,920
Maybe the Nephites and the
Christians?

1491
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:18,240
Well, John definitely has a
vision of that, right?

1492
01:24:18,240 --> 01:24:20,680
He does have a vision of that.
Right, they're close to heaven.

1493
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:23,400
And then Joseph backs that up.
And so, yeah, the people who

1494
01:24:23,400 --> 01:24:26,320
form the Christian nucleus in
the Old World and the Nephite

1495
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:29,600
nucleus, you know, either
through Revelation or through

1496
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:32,360
sources that are no longer
available to us, had a common

1497
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:34,320
tradition on that.
Got you.

1498
01:24:34,680 --> 01:24:38,160
OK, The Jews may have reformed
out.

1499
01:24:38,160 --> 01:24:41,080
I mean, if you're getting rid of
God the Son and God the Mother,

1500
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:47,280
why not get rid of the devil?
OK, so I can't believe I'm going

1501
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:50,920
here to to ask this question.
So we just said that modern

1502
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:57,160
rabbinical tradition doesn't
necessarily believe in a a

1503
01:24:57,200 --> 01:24:59,600
supernatural evil necessarily,
right?

1504
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,840
Yeah.
Separate from God, that God is

1505
01:25:03,440 --> 01:25:05,640
responsible for all,
essentially.

1506
01:25:06,920 --> 01:25:08,200
Gosh, you can't believe I'm
bringing this up.

1507
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:12,080
OK, so the one guy worked with
back East.

1508
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:14,280
OK.
I asked him about something

1509
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:16,480
similar.
He's like, oh, no, we believe in

1510
01:25:16,480 --> 01:25:18,120
something similar.
I was like, well, what do you

1511
01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:19,160
call it?
He's like dibbix.

1512
01:25:20,320 --> 01:25:22,520
Dibbix.
Yeah, but there's like a Dibbix

1513
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:26,680
box.
So like, it's a box that will

1514
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:30,960
that will hold an evil spirit.
OK.

1515
01:25:31,920 --> 01:25:36,800
And so like, I don't know what
sect of Judaism he was, but he

1516
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:39,680
looked pretty darn Orthodox to
me, right?

1517
01:25:40,080 --> 01:25:42,840
And so I'm wondering how that
that plays there and that that

1518
01:25:42,840 --> 01:25:44,360
fits.
In it could have been Hasidic,

1519
01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:48,800
and that's not rabbinical.
OK, so OK, so cause 'cause the

1520
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:51,640
Hasidic Jews look very
traditional with the locks and

1521
01:25:52,360 --> 01:25:55,880
OK that would make sense then
'cause so they are not

1522
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:56,920
rabbinical.
They're not.

1523
01:25:56,920 --> 01:26:01,040
They're way more esoteric and
into a Kabbalah and mysticism.

1524
01:26:01,720 --> 01:26:05,120
00 Kev.
Almost an entirely different

1525
01:26:05,120 --> 01:26:06,440
theology, honestly.
From what?

1526
01:26:06,440 --> 01:26:09,640
OK, OK, no, I'm, I'm, I'm
tracking with you.

1527
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:12,160
All right, that's good.
I just was curious.

1528
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:17,880
That was my that was for me.
So, so, so let me, let me ask

1529
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:21,760
some questions here because
yeah, these, these ones are, are

1530
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:23,960
are kind of something that's
sticking in my mind here that I

1531
01:26:23,960 --> 01:26:27,720
think I would, I would like to
kind of get, get an answer for.

1532
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:32,720
So let's just start with Jesus
quoting Deuteronomy, right?

1533
01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:38,080
Because I did watch a couple
videos on this and like there,

1534
01:26:38,120 --> 01:26:41,400
there gets to be a point with
with the documentary hypothesis

1535
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:44,440
that they do look at the book of
Deuteronomy and start like

1536
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:47,040
asking the question, do we need
this right?

1537
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:50,400
Is this inspired?
But Jesus quotes from it.

1538
01:26:50,880 --> 01:26:52,920
Sure.
How do we, how do we wrestle

1539
01:26:52,920 --> 01:26:54,120
with that?
Good question.

1540
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:56,600
Do we want to do that right now,
or do you have other questions

1541
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:59,400
too?
We can either do that one the

1542
01:26:59,480 --> 01:27:02,880
the other question I'd have is
if, if we're going to follow the

1543
01:27:02,920 --> 01:27:06,960
the documentary hypothesis, what
do we trust in the New Testament

1544
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:10,360
in the Old Testament, right,
Because it does seem to cast

1545
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:14,040
and, and look, I want to give I,
I, I would be remiss without

1546
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:19,520
saying that Mormonism has baked
into it, so to speak, a distrust

1547
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:24,640
of the Bible, right, Because
Joseph says we believe the Bible

1548
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:28,400
as long so far as it's
translated, correct, right,

1549
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:31,800
which would lend to this idea,
right.

1550
01:27:32,280 --> 01:27:37,600
And then my next question is
heard what we were talking about

1551
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:41,280
earlier.
Nephi seems to have some

1552
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:43,920
problems with what's.
Going on in Jerusalem with the

1553
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:47,240
Jews.
But when he goes out to the new

1554
01:27:47,240 --> 01:27:51,400
world and they build a temple,
they build it like unto the one

1555
01:27:51,400 --> 01:27:55,040
in Jerusalem, say if it's made
out of wooden, not stone, right?

1556
01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:58,280
So how do we wrestle with those
things?

1557
01:27:58,280 --> 01:28:00,160
Those are my big three questions
here.

1558
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:05,040
OK, so if I if I recall
correctly, the Book of Mormon

1559
01:28:05,040 --> 01:28:06,560
also quotes.
From Deuteronomy too.

1560
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:15,400
OK, so it seems as if the
Nephites and Christ didn't.

1561
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:18,320
Think the whole thing was bad.
Oh, OK.

1562
01:28:18,360 --> 01:28:22,040
And so and that goes back to
like the criticisms, the modern

1563
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:24,960
criticisms of the documentary
hypothesis, which is an old idea

1564
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:27,720
at this point that over 100
years old is they're like, well,

1565
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:31,400
was it really for concise like
complete documents that then got

1566
01:28:31,400 --> 01:28:36,720
stitched together?
Or was there a lot of redactors

1567
01:28:37,440 --> 01:28:41,440
over multiple periods of time
and different traditions that

1568
01:28:41,440 --> 01:28:44,600
all intersected and multiple
redactors kind of trying to fit

1569
01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:49,400
them together.
And so maybe Deuteronomy wasn't

1570
01:28:49,400 --> 01:28:51,440
just like, oh.
We get let's.

1571
01:28:51,720 --> 01:28:55,440
Let's conspire with, you know,
to have Josiah institute this

1572
01:28:55,440 --> 01:28:59,240
whole book and add this whole
thing that didn't exist before

1573
01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:03,320
into the Canon.
Maybe it was a version of

1574
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:05,720
something that already existed.
OK.

1575
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:11,360
And so there's going to be some
stuff that is older and

1576
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:14,000
therefore more trustworthy if
you want to take that idea.

1577
01:29:14,600 --> 01:29:24,000
Or from a philosophical
standpoint, maybe they could

1578
01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:26,560
just got some things.
Right too, which complicates the

1579
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:28,080
issue, but like, OK if there's
some good.

1580
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:31,800
Theology in there, you know,
broken clocks, right, twice a

1581
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:33,800
day kind of a thing.
Maybe I don't know, right.

1582
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:37,320
You know, then why not use it?
So the yeah, some of the, I

1583
01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:40,920
don't recall which Nephite
prophets, but they quote, they

1584
01:29:40,920 --> 01:29:42,600
quote it.
Christ quotes it in the Book of

1585
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:45,480
Mormon when he talks about it's
in 3rd Nephite 11 I believe

1586
01:29:45,480 --> 01:29:49,360
where he talks about or Moses
made that prophecy that you know

1587
01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:52,240
there will come one like unto
me, the Lord your God will raise

1588
01:29:52,240 --> 01:29:54,840
up a prophet like unto me.
Do what he says.

1589
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:56,720
And if you don't, you'll be cut
off from among the people,

1590
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:59,760
right.
That's a prophecy that we find

1591
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:02,360
in Deuteronomy.
But like, did it exist somewhere

1592
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:04,400
else before the Deuteronomic
reforms?

1593
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:07,240
Gotcha.
You know, so if Christ is

1594
01:30:07,240 --> 01:30:09,800
quoting something that.
If the Book of Mormon prophets

1595
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:15,440
are quoting something.
Is it the reforms that they're

1596
01:30:15,440 --> 01:30:18,400
supporting by quoting it or are?
They just quoting from.

1597
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:21,000
The true part, the true parts,
right?

1598
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:23,760
And Jonah Barnes.
He's pretty fun.

1599
01:30:23,760 --> 01:30:27,560
He's been on board.
Radio and probably Stick and

1600
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:28,840
Joseph.
I don't know if he actually has

1601
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:31,360
been on Stick and Joseph, but
he's got a book called, he's got

1602
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:35,360
two books out now, but one's
called Key to the Keystone,

1603
01:30:36,280 --> 01:30:39,240
which is where he's comparing
Apocrypha to the Book of Mormon.

1604
01:30:39,640 --> 01:30:41,720
OK and stuff, right?
The keystone of our religion.

1605
01:30:42,480 --> 01:30:51,240
And he talks about how he thinks
the the, I don't know if it was

1606
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:53,760
in the book or on the podcast,
but he talks about how he

1607
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:59,240
thought perhaps the original
version of Deuteronomy was what

1608
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:03,200
we call either the apocalypse of
no, that's not the right one.

1609
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:08,440
The Assumption of Moses or the
Testament of Moses has two

1610
01:31:08,440 --> 01:31:09,200
names.
Same thing.

1611
01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:13,960
We know that something called.
The Assumption of Moses exists.

1612
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:16,760
Because of a letter.
Written in Latin in like the 1st

1613
01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:19,160
century identifies it and people
are quoting from it.

1614
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:22,280
We just don't have or we have,
we have that and then we have a

1615
01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:27,120
fragment of it in line, OK, That
we're, and we're able to

1616
01:31:27,120 --> 01:31:29,400
identify it because of where
it's quoted in other places,

1617
01:31:29,440 --> 01:31:30,320
right.
Got you.

1618
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:32,400
It's a fragment.
We don't have how it ends.

1619
01:31:33,040 --> 01:31:38,520
OK, but it takes a lot of the
Deuteronomy context.

1620
01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:44,440
But it's different.
OK, but Deuteronomy is where

1621
01:31:44,440 --> 01:31:45,560
Moses.
Dies.

1622
01:31:47,080 --> 01:31:50,200
Right, you follow me so far.
I am, but we don't have the end.

1623
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:52,400
Of the testament slash.
Assumption of Moses.

1624
01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:56,560
But the thought is that the
Assumption of Moses is not just

1625
01:31:56,560 --> 01:32:00,040
like Dave.
I assume you, you know, had eggs

1626
01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:01,720
for breakfast this morning.
It's not that kind of

1627
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:04,440
assumption.
It's he's assumed into heaven,

1628
01:32:04,880 --> 01:32:07,280
right?
So why is it called that when

1629
01:32:07,280 --> 01:32:09,720
the Book of Mormon also says?
Oh, by the way.

1630
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:12,080
Moses was taken back into heaven
and he never died.

1631
01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:15,840
I see.
And so was it possible that the

1632
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:17,520
assumption of Moses?
Was the original.

1633
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:21,160
Deuteronomy Jonah thinks so
interesting, you know, and then

1634
01:32:21,160 --> 01:32:24,040
that later that was changed.
That was another thing that was

1635
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:26,880
changed, you know, So the Bible
now says Moses died, which is

1636
01:32:26,920 --> 01:32:29,840
one of the biggest fights
against us with the out of God

1637
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:34,080
doctrine is, you know, the Bible
says Adam died, right?

1638
01:32:34,120 --> 01:32:36,560
I said, well, the Bible says
Moses died too, but the Book

1639
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:40,040
Mormon says he did, right?
That's a good point.

1640
01:32:41,080 --> 01:32:42,680
OK.
All right.

1641
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:48,760
How do you make sense of of
Nephi building a temple like

1642
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:51,840
unto the one at Jerusalem if
he's really got problems with

1643
01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:54,640
what's going on there?
I'd imagine that at that point

1644
01:32:54,760 --> 01:32:56,920
there would have been some
temple practices that would have

1645
01:32:56,920 --> 01:33:00,600
been compromise as well, right?
Maybe.

1646
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:02,800
I mean, so they build a temple
and they pattern after what they

1647
01:33:02,800 --> 01:33:06,800
knew.
And maybe we, we don't get the

1648
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:09,280
whole run now, we don't have the
priestly source of the Book of

1649
01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:12,200
Mormons saying these are all the
details and the laws of the

1650
01:33:12,200 --> 01:33:14,920
sacrifices and how like how
they're prescribed like we do in

1651
01:33:14,920 --> 01:33:16,880
the Bible, right?
That's not in the Book of

1652
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:19,000
Mormons.
So we don't know like what they

1653
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:24,240
did and what they might have
picked or left out if there were

1654
01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:27,760
problems like that.
We know they weren't Levites.

1655
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:33,240
They were still doing sacrifice
right?

1656
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:38,160
But they weren't Levites.
But also against Deuteronomy.

1657
01:33:39,080 --> 01:33:41,760
They built a temple outside
Jerusalem, and not only that,

1658
01:33:41,760 --> 01:33:44,800
they built at least two in
Deuteronomy.

1659
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:47,320
No, in in America, right?
The right.

1660
01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:48,200
Right, right.
OK.

1661
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:51,320
Yeah, yeah, because Deuteronomy,
the Deuteronomic history says

1662
01:33:51,520 --> 01:33:53,200
Jerusalem.
'S the only place and.

1663
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:56,080
And then he fights actually.
So 3 because they build one in

1664
01:33:56,080 --> 01:33:58,360
Nephite, they build one in Zahra
Hamlet, and they build one in

1665
01:33:58,360 --> 01:34:01,000
Bountiful.
So not only one, they build 3

1666
01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:05,240
outside of Jerusalem against
this idea of the of Josiah's

1667
01:34:05,240 --> 01:34:07,680
reform saying only have a temple
in Jerusalem.

1668
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:11,600
Yeah, there's a rub again,
right?

1669
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:13,560
Yeah.
So they did not take that

1670
01:34:13,560 --> 01:34:16,120
seriously.
Because I mean, you could.

1671
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:19,920
Have.
Let's say they did consider on a

1672
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:23,440
level, oh, there's supposed to
be 1 cultic place of, you know,

1673
01:34:23,440 --> 01:34:27,720
one Nexus of worship.
Therefore, you know, we're going

1674
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:30,400
to build 1.
But because we're not in

1675
01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:32,560
Jerusalem anymore, we have to
build it where we are.

1676
01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:37,000
Therefore we can just justify
building outside Jerusalem.

1677
01:34:37,000 --> 01:34:38,120
We're but we're going to have
one, right?

1678
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:41,040
But they don't do that.
They have two at least

1679
01:34:41,040 --> 01:34:43,520
concurrently with Zarahemala and
Bountiful.

1680
01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:46,120
Right, at least.
So they're not right.

1681
01:34:46,120 --> 01:34:49,160
They're not even following the
pattern of the old world, right?

1682
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:52,600
Interesting.
Yeah, but as far as architecture

1683
01:34:52,600 --> 01:34:54,560
and stuff, I don't.
Know if any of that was corrupt?

1684
01:34:54,680 --> 01:34:57,320
So I couldn't.
Tell you that there that there's

1685
01:34:57,320 --> 01:34:59,480
no reason they couldn't build
after the manner of Solomon's

1686
01:34:59,480 --> 01:35:03,480
temple as far as architectural
designs, I have 0 issues with

1687
01:35:03,480 --> 01:35:08,240
that So let me ask this question
and then because I think this is

1688
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:09,640
the big.
One if the.

1689
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:14,360
Documentary hypothesis is true.
How do we trust anything in the

1690
01:35:14,360 --> 01:35:20,440
Old Testament?
So my lodestar and my keystones

1691
01:35:20,440 --> 01:35:23,160
are.
The Book of Mormon and Joseph

1692
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:28,000
Smith, OK, you know, and then
other.

1693
01:35:28,000 --> 01:35:30,360
Prophets too, and so that's an
interesting thing.

1694
01:35:30,360 --> 01:35:34,000
Too, because this is this is the
paradigm here is do you trust?

1695
01:35:34,280 --> 01:35:37,040
Which do you trust more
scripture or revelation?

1696
01:35:37,280 --> 01:35:39,880
And that's also been a rough
constantly in our own tradition,

1697
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:43,720
right?
Sure, you know, for example, the

1698
01:35:43,720 --> 01:35:47,760
LDS church, in my opinion, goes
way off the rails with follow

1699
01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:51,400
revelation and these are the
dead prophets.

1700
01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:55,520
And I'm like, no, listen to
scripture when I talk to an LDS

1701
01:35:55,520 --> 01:35:59,520
person, you know, or, or
previous prophets, you know, at

1702
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:03,040
that level, you know, like, but
they just follow the modern guy,

1703
01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:05,800
follow the modern guy, modern
revelation Trump's all right.

1704
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:08,000
And so that's a that's a
problem.

1705
01:36:08,360 --> 01:36:11,440
But here I am saying there's a
revelation.

1706
01:36:11,440 --> 01:36:14,240
Trump Scripture, you know, Or
the apparent.

1707
01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:17,880
The appearance of.
Scripture, well, maybe because

1708
01:36:17,880 --> 01:36:21,080
maybe some of it hasn't been
transmitted faithfully, right?

1709
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:26,000
So what can you be sure about?
I'm pretty sure about.

1710
01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:28,920
Joseph Smith's calling.
As a prophet, right, And the

1711
01:36:28,920 --> 01:36:32,800
Book of Mormon.
And so if you can use those as a

1712
01:36:32,800 --> 01:36:35,400
square, I'm a Carpenter.
So if you want to square

1713
01:36:35,400 --> 01:36:37,800
everything else to that and see
how it fits, I think it's a good

1714
01:36:37,800 --> 01:36:42,800
place to start.
Gotcha, so let let me.

1715
01:36:43,480 --> 01:36:46,760
Back to the scripture thing,
that's even a low determined

1716
01:36:46,760 --> 01:36:48,920
Mormonism though, right?
And let me explain.

1717
01:36:51,160 --> 01:36:55,120
What would someone call these?
The word of God.

1718
01:36:55,560 --> 01:36:57,000
Scripture.
Scripture, right?

1719
01:36:58,800 --> 01:37:00,000
I don't think that's the
correct.

1720
01:37:00,000 --> 01:37:02,800
Term and let me explain why.
Yeah, it's Canon, right?

1721
01:37:03,120 --> 01:37:05,880
It's Canon.
It's not scripture Canon.

1722
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:07,360
Is what you're going to find in
your.

1723
01:37:07,360 --> 01:37:10,520
Quad right.
But Mormonism suggests that

1724
01:37:10,520 --> 01:37:12,520
scripture is anything, not
suggests.

1725
01:37:12,520 --> 01:37:16,720
Mormonism says scripture is
anything that is moved upon by

1726
01:37:16,720 --> 01:37:19,840
the Holy Ghost, by right, by
God's servants, when moved upon

1727
01:37:19,840 --> 01:37:22,120
by the Holy Ghost.
So therefore I.

1728
01:37:22,120 --> 01:37:24,600
Would suggest that a lot of
what's in the Journal of

1729
01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:28,040
Discourse is a scripture, right?
Show the teachings of the

1730
01:37:28,040 --> 01:37:32,080
Prophet Joseph Smith.
I would say that's pretty darn

1731
01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:37,120
sure Scripture.
And so we got this idea of of

1732
01:37:37,360 --> 01:37:39,960
I'm not a fan of Sola Script
Torah, right?

1733
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:41,400
Because we see the fruits of
that.

1734
01:37:41,400 --> 01:37:43,120
We see the fruits of that as
well.

1735
01:37:43,200 --> 01:37:45,080
And frustrating.
Yeah.

1736
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:49,320
And so it does seem like.
You have to have.

1737
01:37:49,320 --> 01:37:53,760
A very healthy balance if if
you're going to not tip to one

1738
01:37:53,880 --> 01:37:56,560
too far to one side or the
other, I would agree.

1739
01:37:56,600 --> 01:37:59,800
You know, for example, you mean
you need to read it right?

1740
01:37:59,920 --> 01:38:02,840
You're going to need.
To read for yourself, Yep, and

1741
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:04,840
make up your own.
Oh, make up your own mind.

1742
01:38:05,240 --> 01:38:09,880
Don't let anyone else tell you
right?

1743
01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:11,720
You know you can listen, but
like, go study.

1744
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:15,600
For yourself and find.
Out that it's between you and

1745
01:38:15,600 --> 01:38:18,960
the Lord and the inspirations of
the Holy Ghost at that point.

1746
01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:21,400
But yeah, you have this debate,
man.

1747
01:38:21,400 --> 01:38:23,400
It's been everywhere.
Like there's a anecdote that

1748
01:38:23,400 --> 01:38:28,480
gets told like, you know,
Brigham Young and Hiram.

1749
01:38:28,480 --> 01:38:31,880
I think Brigham Young tells the
story how Hiram got up in one

1750
01:38:31,880 --> 01:38:34,600
meeting and said the scriptures,
the scriptures, the scriptures.

1751
01:38:35,320 --> 01:38:38,880
And then Joseph called on
Brigham to speak and he said,

1752
01:38:38,880 --> 01:38:40,960
well, I wouldn't give a damn for
the scriptures if it weren't for

1753
01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:44,880
living prophets as well.
And then Hiram, Hiram got up

1754
01:38:44,960 --> 01:38:46,760
after him.
So, well, yes, of course, I

1755
01:38:46,760 --> 01:38:50,240
meant the living oracles too,
you know, kind of, you know,

1756
01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:53,360
that's so interesting.
It is interesting.

1757
01:38:54,680 --> 01:38:56,880
And then how would we make sense
then?

1758
01:38:57,920 --> 01:39:00,400
If the documentary.
Hypothesis is true.

1759
01:39:01,640 --> 01:39:06,720
How would we make sense of
Joseph Smith going through the

1760
01:39:06,720 --> 01:39:10,720
Bible and not?
Making many revisions.

1761
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:12,720
To Deuteronomy or.
Any of those.

1762
01:39:14,120 --> 01:39:16,800
Any of those right now the Pearl
of great price is interesting

1763
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:18,480
in.
That I think that's a.

1764
01:39:18,480 --> 01:39:22,760
Revision of Genesis, right?
And and so that one I would say,

1765
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:27,000
OK, there's your revision there.
But he, he, he touches way more

1766
01:39:27,000 --> 01:39:30,400
on like Matthew than he ever
does any of these other books

1767
01:39:31,120 --> 01:39:33,680
that seem to be in question.
So there's two schools of

1768
01:39:33,680 --> 01:39:37,080
thought in Mormonism regarding
the Joseph.

1769
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:39,880
Smith Translation And some
people think it was done and

1770
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:42,880
some people don't.
And I lean in the camp that it

1771
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:44,560
was not done yet.
OK.

1772
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:47,280
And you do have a revelation in
the Doctrine of Covenants where

1773
01:39:47,280 --> 01:39:50,960
the Lord is told or the Lord
tells Joseph to switch his

1774
01:39:51,120 --> 01:39:53,360
efforts on Old Testament and
start doing him.

1775
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:57,400
And so it was in his his work on
the Old Testament was

1776
01:39:57,400 --> 01:40:01,440
interrupted at a certain level.
I don't actually recall where

1777
01:40:01,440 --> 01:40:06,480
where he was when when he
switches, but that could help

1778
01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:09,720
illustrate that idea of why he
didn't touched on Deuteronomy.

1779
01:40:09,720 --> 01:40:13,720
As much.
Interesting because he was told

1780
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:18,160
to shift focus to New Testament
and then he was going to, from

1781
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:20,920
what I read, go back through.
In Nauvoo.

1782
01:40:20,920 --> 01:40:23,960
But he died before he could get
back to Bible translations.

1783
01:40:24,280 --> 01:40:29,240
OK, OK.
So let me ask.

1784
01:40:29,240 --> 01:40:33,040
You this, is there any other
linchpin or or big things here?

1785
01:40:33,040 --> 01:40:35,040
That we didn't go over that you
feel like we should.

1786
01:40:35,560 --> 01:40:38,480
No, there's not.
But the recap is, you know, to

1787
01:40:38,480 --> 01:40:41,160
me, it's not so much like.
Is the documentary hypothesis

1788
01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:46,040
true?
As much as this gives us this

1789
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:53,200
theory, this hypothesis gives us
valuable tools to investigate

1790
01:40:53,200 --> 01:41:00,040
our own religion and to say,
hey, OK, there are maybe some.

1791
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:03,080
Contradictions here.
This doesn't have to break my

1792
01:41:03,080 --> 01:41:07,680
faith because there's answers
here that, OK, there's this

1793
01:41:07,680 --> 01:41:09,880
person saying this thing about
God, this person saying this

1794
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:12,520
thing about God, like, OK, where
is the truth?

1795
01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:17,280
And you're able to say, oh,
there are different

1796
01:41:17,280 --> 01:41:19,280
perspectives.
Or, oh, that's why the Book of

1797
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:21,160
Mormons.
Says this versus the Bible and

1798
01:41:21,240 --> 01:41:24,640
it doesn't break you, you know,
and so it's not so much as like,

1799
01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:28,040
is this original idea of the
documentary hypothesis true?

1800
01:41:28,480 --> 01:41:31,600
The the minutiae of that don't
matter to me so much as in like,

1801
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:34,760
do we need to find E?
Do we need to find Jay

1802
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:38,240
completely?
You know, I don't think that

1803
01:41:38,240 --> 01:41:42,480
that's important at all.
But the idea, I think, is more

1804
01:41:42,480 --> 01:41:49,720
honest and interesting that the
Bible could be compared to the

1805
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:52,800
Book of Mormon.
Like we covered as.

1806
01:41:52,800 --> 01:41:57,440
An anthology of many different
records in a breachment, an

1807
01:41:57,440 --> 01:41:58,280
abridgement.
Yeah.

1808
01:41:59,120 --> 01:42:05,360
The difference being Mormon and
Moroni are honest and vocal and

1809
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:09,760
it's just one, right?
Two guys and then we don't know

1810
01:42:09,760 --> 01:42:12,600
how many are on the other side.
We don't know if they were

1811
01:42:12,600 --> 01:42:13,760
inspired.
All the time.

1812
01:42:15,640 --> 01:42:17,960
Well, I think we can say that
they weren't right because

1813
01:42:17,960 --> 01:42:19,560
Joseph.
Smith does say.

1814
01:42:20,280 --> 01:42:23,520
Yeah, We believe the Bible in as
far as it's translated, correct.

1815
01:42:23,520 --> 01:42:25,280
And what does he say in the King
fault discourse?

1816
01:42:25,280 --> 01:42:27,600
A Jew with no authority out of
that in there, Right?

1817
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:28,800
Right.
You know, when he talks about

1818
01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:32,320
how Elohim, you know, and that
that first grammatical phrase

1819
01:42:32,320 --> 01:42:34,640
with Elohim creating the world,
right, right.

1820
01:42:35,120 --> 01:42:36,680
And how it should be plural and
all that.

1821
01:42:36,680 --> 01:42:39,920
And he says a Jew with no
authority added that in there,

1822
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:44,480
you know, interesting.
And so, yeah, no, it so to me,

1823
01:42:44,480 --> 01:42:46,360
you know the book.
Of Mormon has this Providence.

1824
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:49,360
Like that we're kind of, we're
kind of promised and taken on

1825
01:42:49,360 --> 01:42:52,840
faith that that their tradition
was more secure, their

1826
01:42:52,840 --> 01:42:55,600
transmission was more secure
than the Bible's was.

1827
01:42:56,080 --> 01:43:00,880
But beyond that, why wouldn't it
be made in the same way as an

1828
01:43:00,880 --> 01:43:04,840
anthology or abridgment, right?
Right.

1829
01:43:05,280 --> 01:43:09,520
And how much, Moses?
Played in that is anybody's

1830
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:11,560
guess, yeah.
Or, you know, some people think

1831
01:43:11,560 --> 01:43:14,320
Ezra was the the last redactor,
the main.

1832
01:43:14,320 --> 01:43:16,720
Redactor of the Old Testament,
you know, when they come back

1833
01:43:16,720 --> 01:43:19,440
from captivity, from Babylon and
they're trying to get their

1834
01:43:19,440 --> 01:43:23,600
heads on, you know, after being
in Babylon for 70 years and

1835
01:43:23,600 --> 01:43:26,240
they're trying to figure things
out, trying to get back to what

1836
01:43:26,240 --> 01:43:29,640
they were before, but no one
remembers, you know, right?

1837
01:43:29,640 --> 01:43:31,080
Or you have all these different
memories.

1838
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:35,600
Right, good stuff.
So it's not.

1839
01:43:35,600 --> 01:43:37,040
Something that has to break your
face.

1840
01:43:37,040 --> 01:43:38,600
It's something that.
You can work with within.

1841
01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:41,400
Mormonism, I think it that's a
bolster and I think it

1842
01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:46,640
illustrates the reasons.
Why Mormonism seems to differ

1843
01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:51,480
from sectarian Christianity and
traditional Judaism?

1844
01:43:51,680 --> 01:43:53,800
Yeah, 'cause this is not a
Mormon concept.

1845
01:43:53,800 --> 01:43:55,840
The documentary is not
hypothesis, it's not a Mormon

1846
01:43:55,840 --> 01:43:59,320
concept, but it supplements our
theology and our history and our

1847
01:43:59,320 --> 01:44:02,320
narrative very well, I think,
especially with Why does Lehi

1848
01:44:02,320 --> 01:44:06,080
believe in a Satan as a fallen
Angel?

1849
01:44:06,080 --> 01:44:09,640
Why does Nephi have divine
feminine imagery?

1850
01:44:10,480 --> 01:44:13,760
You know, when that was frowned
upon, you know, by Orthodox

1851
01:44:13,760 --> 01:44:17,680
Jews, You know, to me, that
answers very important

1852
01:44:17,680 --> 01:44:19,840
questions.
Those are important questions to

1853
01:44:19,840 --> 01:44:23,600
the, the cosmology that Joseph
Smith revealed to us, right?

1854
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:25,280
You know, those are the
fundamental things, right?

1855
01:44:25,280 --> 01:44:26,960
That God has a family.
He's not alone.

1856
01:44:27,640 --> 01:44:30,320
You know that's.
Fundamental for what we become,

1857
01:44:30,760 --> 01:44:32,680
right?
Yeah.

1858
01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:38,320
It's fascinating stuff, man.
Well, dude, thanks for doing

1859
01:44:38,320 --> 01:44:39,720
this.
Yeah, no problem at all.

1860
01:44:40,120 --> 01:44:41,800
All.
Right, we'll have to catch up.

1861
01:44:41,800 --> 01:44:43,600
And do another one soon.
Hope so.

1862
01:44:43,720 --> 01:44:44,320
All right, all right.
See you.

1863
01:44:44,320 --> 01:45:17,720
Everyone bye everybody.
Listening to the Mormon.