Episode #193: The Doctrine Of Christ W/Elior Walker

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The.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Eleor, what's going on, big guy?

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Hey brother, hope you're doing
well my man.

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So we're going to talk about the
doctrine of Christ, right?

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Yes, Sir.
But not like the freaky doctrine

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of Christ.
Who?

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Those folks who deny polygamy,
right?

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No.
And my my whole mission is to

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take the doctrine of Christ
back.

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So it's in the hands of true
blue orthodox Mormons.

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Yes, as as it should be.
And this brings up another

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point, which is why does all the
worst crap always have the word

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most innocuous sounding names
ever, right?

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Like it's never like that.
Well, that's my theory on, on

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hurricanes, why people get
caught in hurricanes.

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You can't name them like Edna,
right 'cause that sounds like,

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hey, Edna's coming great, fire
up the BBQ.

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I love that Edna, right.
No, you need to name that thing

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like, I don't know, hurricane
your mother-in-law or something

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like that.
Something that really just

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inspires fear and, and, and, and
just nightmarish sort of

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scenarios that would get people
moving.

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Yeah, like why don't they name
it like John D Rockefeller or

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something?
You know what I mean?

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Right, right.
Or for us, like Hurricane Heber

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J Grant, it's like, Oh no, grab
the truth, hide it.

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Heber's.
Coming.

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Exactly, bro.
We don't.

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He's going to reform this
hurricane or he's going to

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reform this town if we don't get
out of the way.

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Exactly.
Exactly.

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So I think that may be the
earliest I've ever bagged on

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Hebrew J Grant in a podcast.
I didn't make it a full 5

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minutes so.
Well, I it's an honor, I guess.

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Right, right, right.
It's a record.

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It's a record.
You know, I, when I came into

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orthodox Mormonism, I'm not
going to use the F word.

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When I came into orthodox
Mormonism, I had a lot of anger

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toward Heberger Grant, which
like, why?

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You know, that's not special at
all.

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That's everybody and their dog.
But I, I do feel compassion now.

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He lost his dad, who was a total
stud when he was really young

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and he was like mentored by
Godby, William Godby.

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So it's, I mean, what, what if,
what if he, what if we had lost

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our father that young and been
mentored by William Godby?

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I mean.
Godby's nuts, especially when

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you start looking at like his
spiritual practices.

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Yeah.
You're just kind of like, like

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that dude may have nothing on
Faust.

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You know the devil's bargain,
right?

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Like he may have.
He may have sealed the deal.

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Yeah, he may have made his
calling election.

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Sure.
In the wrong direction.

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Oh, that's awful.
Yeah.

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Yeah, I get you there.
God be is just one.

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It's crazy how Hebrew J Grant
belongs to a chain of very bad

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movers and shakers, you know,
powers that shouldn't be.

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You have God be, God be above
Heber, and then Robert Owen is

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an influence on God be, and then
Madame Blavatsky as an influence

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on Robert Owen.
It's just like this nightmare

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chain of dude, The devil knew
what he was doing putting those

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pieces there, you know?
Dude 100% and and folks like

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Blavatsky if you start looking
at like World War 2 or pre World

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War 2 Germany, the the fuel
society was a big mover and

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shaker based off a lot of the
practices of guys like Godby

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Blavatsky, those sorts of
things.

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Like it is a dark, dark cauldron
of just the most unsavory

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characters, both from a human
perspective as well as a

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spiritual one.
Yeah, I guess you, you can't be

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too surprised then that that
would that would come into the

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church.
You know that that line of

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thought, that legacy, right?
Yeah.

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I'm sure I'm going to have to do
an episode on those times at

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some point, right?
That would.

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Be amazing.
One, one of my big contentions

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is that Nazism just wasn't a a
political ideology.

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It was a religion, right.
There was a great book wrote by

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oh, I'm blanking on his name
now, but it was called Hitler's

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monsters.
The guy's a, a Yale, a Yale

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historian, right?
Not exactly a guy that you would

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paint as like a right winger by
any stretch of the imagination,

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right.
But even he after he looked at

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it was like, oh, this might be
bad.

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Another good one to read if you
want to know about the spiritual

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side of movements is again wrote
by a guy who was from the Ivy

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League called the Devil and Karl
Marx, which talks about the

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influence of of, you know, a a
Satan type character, the

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destroyer on on Karl Marx.
And he has some very interesting

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things to show there.
I mean, it really paints, paints

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a different picture of of both
of those movements.

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So not only was not only was
Marks being bankrolled by the

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usual suspects, but he was
talking to the demons.

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Now, is that what you're telling
me?

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Dude, it gets spookier than
that.

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So they're his favorite play.
Was Faust OK, the devil's

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bargain.
The other thing is, is that he

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wrote several plays and the main
theme is selling your soul to

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the devil.
And there is, See if this sounds

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familiar to you, there's a quote
that he gives where he says I

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will stride to cross this land
and it will now be my world.

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And from the chaos that I have
caused, I will now bring forth

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order.
Oh, like the right pattern.

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But in the hands of pure evil,
that's awesome.

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Yeah, dude, wrestling.
We're going to touch on

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wrestling chaos in order today
and that but but every time it's

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like the inverted satanic
version.

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That's just creepy vibes right
there, you know?

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Oh, yeah, dude.
Oh, yeah.

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No, it, it is for sure.
Like those two books.

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I'm not that there's three that
really, like made me like stay

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up at night looking at the
ceiling, those two.

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And then there was another book
by Annie Jacobson called Nuclear

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War.
And like, I was like, oh, oh,

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this is horrible.
So anyway, folks, there's

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there's your, there's, there's
the Mormon Renegade Book Club

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for you.
I'm not exactly going to make

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you the life of parties, but
you'll you'll have a newfound

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understanding of some of these
movements.

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So all right, on to other
things.

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Well, on to the Yeah, this is
the solution to everything we

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just talked about right here.
And I do need to say you'd had a

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discussion with Justin Frankem,
episode 179 of your podcast,

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part nine of the Temple series.
And I want to say we're going to

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be touching on some similar
themes, but I'm going to be

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coming at it from a different
angle.

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And the way I I do, I have just
a few slides for this

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presentation or for this
discussion I mean.

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Let me let me change my
permissions here for you.

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Cool.
I did not want it to be a

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presentation.
I wanted to be discussion, but

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near the middle I'll I'll be
intermittently sharing some

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slides.
But so I just want to say

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everybody, whether you're
listening or watching, you

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should check out Justin's
episode.

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It's episode 179, part 9 of the
Temple series.

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Really good stuff.
And, and I'm, I'm coming at it,

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like I said, from a different
angle and the way I map some

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things onto the temple diagram
is a little bit different, but

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he's been studying this stuff
like 15 years longer than me.

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So, you know, it'd be, it'd be
well worth, it'd be well worth

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your time to check that out.
One more preface.

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I'm going to be dabbling in the
pretentious world of

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philosophical jargon.
And when I use a philosophical

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term, I'm going to explain what
it means.

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And the only reason I'm using
them is so if the listener or

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the viewer wants to go dive into
some stuff later, they'll know.

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They'll know what some things
mean.

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And I, I wish we could just
speak plainly and not pretend to

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be intellectuals, but you know,
it is what it is.

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For the audience, that's what
you call being nice to the

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audience.
Because really, or let me

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rephrase that, that's what's
called being nice to the host.

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Because right there, what Elior
did as he said, oh, this is for

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the audience.
But he looks at me and he knows

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darn well I'm not going to get
any of those.

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So I appreciate the the effort
there.

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But well, I'll if I have
questions, I'll ask you.

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Sounds good brother.
I you're a smart cookie.

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That ain't true, but OK.
So the the doctrine of Christ is

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the focal point of this
discussion.

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It is.
I will die on this hill.

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I've been given a testimony of
this.

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The doctrine of Christ is the
most fundamental doctrine of the

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Restoration and of Mormonism.
Without the doctrine of Christ,

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plural marriage, celestial
marriage, and consecration mean

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nothing.
We aren't, we have not lived the

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doctrine of Christ because had
we, we would already have Zion

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in the Kingdom of God.
The doctrine of Christ is what

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creates a Zion people.
So and it's very inward focus.

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There's a lot of outward ritual
that is meant to teach sort of

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this inward process of becoming.
And so I will we, we Mormons

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will never build Zion unless we
learn to live the doctrine of

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Christ.
So my prayer right now is that

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the hearts of the listeners and
viewers are softened because

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some of this stuff is kind of
heavy.

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So I pray that they're softened
so they're able to receive some

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of this stuff because for some
reason, simple gospel truth is

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hard to understand sometimes
because we have hard hearts.

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So that's my prayer right now.
I pray that I can speak with the

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tongue of angels and the Lord
can do the rest by His grace.

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But there's some doctrinal
prerequisites to the doctrine of

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Christ, and that is first and
foremost the everlasting

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covenant.
And that leads into the

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doctrines of fall and atonement,
naturally.

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And those two doctrines lead
into the doctrine of Christ.

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So we're going to touch on the
everlasting covenant 1st and

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then fall in atonement, and
finally the doctrine of Christ.

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So without further ado, I'm
finally going to get this ball

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rolling, But OK.
So I'm going to be reading from

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Teachings of the Prophet Joseph
Smith, page 190.

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He says the everlasting covenant
was made between 3 personages

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before the organization of this
earth and relates to their

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dispensation of things to men on
the earth.

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These personages, according to
Abraham's record, are called God

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the First, the Creator, God the
second the Redeemer, and God the

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third the witness or testator.
So this right here is kind of

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the foundation of our entire
religion, of the religion God

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revealed to Adam that has been
passed down through the

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millennia and restored and
whatnot.

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And and so we learned that three
personages, the Father, the Son

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of the Holy Ghost are in a
covenant or, or share a

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covenant.
And here's me and you, me and

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you spent time in the church.
What do they usually, how do

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they usually define a covenant?
Do you remember?

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Really it's it's an agreement
between you and God.

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It's a two way promise, right?
Yep.

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Well, I'm sorry to say, but that
is utterly insufficient because

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when all we view a covenant as
is a two way promise, it's just

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a transactional means to an end,
meaning we're OK, I'm going to

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make this promise with God so I
can get something from it.

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It's it's sort of, it's sort of
entails A scarcity mindset and

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it's very utilitarian.
We're using God as a means.

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It's a two way promise.
So if I do this, you do that, I

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get what I want.
The truth is that covenants are

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not the vehicle, but the
covenant itself is the blessing

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from which all other blessings
flow.

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Covenants are the end and the
end in and of themselves.

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And so covenants are not a two
way promise.

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They're a relationship.
You've heard, I'm sure

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everybody's heard the term a
covenant relationship.

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That's really what that is.
So covenant relationships are

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interpersonal.
They are, like I said, an end in

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and of themselves, not a means
to an end.

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We want to enter into covenant
relationship with God because we

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want Him and we want to give
ourselves completely to him.

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And the the Father, the Son and
the Holy Ghost in this covenant

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00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:03,160
relationship share what is
called an I, thou relationship I

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and thou I and you in, in, in
Philosopher Martin Buber coined

229
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this phrase and he has a whole
book on it called I Am Now.

230
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And it's one of the most
beautiful gospel truths I've

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ever come across in my entire
life.

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And in fact, when you think
about it, the entire gospel is

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about perfecting relationships,
relationship for eternity.

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00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,480
Relationships are at the heart
of the gospel.

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Then think about every
commandment.

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It's about how we relate to God
and others, making sure we're

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treating others right and
treating God right, treating

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00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,920
ourselves right.
But so in in and I thou

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00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,360
relationship or in in the I thou
relationship of the Godhead,

240
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,680
they freely give themselves
completely to one another and

241
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,120
they give each other space to
reveal themselves to each other

242
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:55,160
in every moment of time.
So they're like treating each

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00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,440
other as an endless revelation
because that's what we are.

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We are Co creators.
We ourselves are an endless

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00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:09,200
revelation.
And in this covenant

246
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,080
relationship they share, they
are eternally gaining

247
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,080
experiential knowledge in a
fullness of loving unity.

248
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,840
I'm sure we're familiar with
like the Brigham Young and Orson

249
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,880
Pratt quotes stating how God is
eternally progressing, You know,

250
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,360
so God, God the Father, God the
Son and God the Holy Ghost are

251
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,320
they?
They share this knowledge and

252
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,080
they're gaining experiential
knowledge together for eternity.

253
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:39,120
They're so they are omniscient.
They know everything that is

254
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,400
possible to know, but they're
always having new experiences.

255
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,680
And so every time you have a new
experience, you gain

256
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,080
experiential knowledge, right?
And then then what's possible to

257
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,560
know is even greater because
you're constantly having more

258
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,440
experiences you.
Know as, as you were just

259
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,320
talking there about this
covenantal relationship and

260
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:06,360
about revealing yourself fully
to God and God revealing himself

261
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,400
to you.
It makes a lot more sense on why

262
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,040
that that imagery of marriage is
used so much, especially in the

263
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,600
Old and New Testaments, right?
Of Christ as the bra as the

264
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,080
bridegroom and the church as the
bride, right?

265
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,560
And I think, I think there's a
lot of similarities there with

266
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,400
with the marriage covenant as
well.

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00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:35,160
I think men need to listen up
right now and trust me, I I just

268
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,560
want to say like, we are the
bride, you know?

269
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,160
And I know that's hard for a man
to hear.

270
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,160
We don't want to see ourselves
that way.

271
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,600
But that's the relationship.
Exactly what you said.

272
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,800
That's what God desires with us.
In fact, in the New Testament,

273
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,800
Paul likens receiving the Spirit
of God to the seed of God being

274
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:53,560
planted in US.
You know what I mean?

275
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:55,760
So yeah, I totally agree with
you.

276
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,600
Marriage is modeled after the
relationship God wants with us,

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00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,880
like you just basically said.
See, I love that you.

278
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,839
I love that you brought that up
because I won't be talking about

279
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:08,280
marriage in this one.
So I'm glad you brought that up

280
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,119
because there is a lot of
marriage imagery in the

281
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:19,200
Scriptures, as you know.
So I just want to cite Abraham

282
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:27,040
322 through 26 to sort of prove
that, you know, knowledge and

283
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:31,080
glory can be gained for eternity
through experience.

284
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,480
So it says they who keep their
first estate shall be added upon

285
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:38,520
and they who keep their second
estate shall have glory added

286
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:40,360
upon their heads forever and
ever.

287
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,640
And then Brigham Young says in
Journal of Discourses one 350

288
00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,480
the God that I serve is
progressing eternally, and so

289
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,040
are his children.
They will increase to all

290
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:57,280
eternity if they are faithful.
And another thing I want to say

291
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,520
about this covenant relationship
that the Father, Son, the Holy

292
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,960
Ghost share, you know, we don't
know.

293
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:05,600
There's different views on how
long they've been in this

294
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,320
covenant relationship.
Because if you believe in the

295
00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:13,400
infinite regress of gods like
most Mormons do, like our God

296
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,200
had a God, then his God had a
God, then his God had a God.

297
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:20,400
If you believe in that, then it
would seem that the Father, Son,

298
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,840
and Holy Ghost haven't
necessarily been in their

299
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,760
relationship for all eternity.
But either way, it seems that

300
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,800
they've been in this
relationship for a very long

301
00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,720
time.
And DNC 2028 says which Father,

302
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,200
Son, and Holy Ghost are one God,
infinite and eternal without

303
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:39,320
end.
Amen.

304
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,600
And eternally eternity, you
know, can travel forwards and

305
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,040
backwards.
So just wanted to say that

306
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:48,640
they've been in this
relationship for a long time.

307
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,560
So.
So are you, Are you a believer

308
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,520
in that regressive model of the
gods?

309
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,440
OK, so there's two there's two
major models.

310
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,920
There's the infinite regress
model and that's supported by

311
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:02,920
the King.
A the plainest interpretation of

312
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,440
the King fall at this course and
Sermon in the Grove by Joseph

313
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,760
Smith.
Then there is the monarchical

314
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:13,320
monotheism model, also called.
You can call it henotheism or

315
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,880
monolatry is.
That the one Blake is that the

316
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:22,600
one Blake Oster subscribes to?
100% because it is what every

317
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,960
standard work teaches and it's
what Joseph Smith teaches and

318
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,160
tell the sermon in the Grove.
And so I'm actually completely

319
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,480
agnostic.
I could go either way on that

320
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:33,520
one.
OK.

321
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,560
Personally.
But this this this will work

322
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,040
with both models.
Yeah, 100%.

323
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:42,040
OK.
In fact, that's kind of why I

324
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,240
had to throw that caveat in
there about I don't know how

325
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,040
long they've been in that
relationship, but they've

326
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:49,520
probably been in it for a long
time.

327
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,200
And they're they're fully
glorified together, even though

328
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,280
the spirit doesn't have a body
or, you know, we're not.

329
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,320
You know, some people think
Joseph Smith is a spirit.

330
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,360
I'm.
I'm fine with that.

331
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,400
But yeah, I'm, I Depending on
your theory, there may be some

332
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,320
differences, but this this
discussion will work with either

333
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:09,680
one for the most part.
OK.

334
00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:11,120
Perfect.
Yeah.

335
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:13,560
I should have known you were
schooled on that.

336
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:15,960
Should have known you do about
Blake Osler.

337
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:20,680
I listen to a few things from
now, now and again.

338
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,440
Well, I'm this first section is
heavily influenced by Blake

339
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,520
Osler, so I'm glad you reminded
me.

340
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,680
I want to give credit where
credit is due.

341
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,600
Everybody who is a true scholar
of Mormon theology, whether

342
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,960
whether you know, I don't
disagree with everything Blake

343
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:41,240
Osler says, but everybody needs
to either read or listen to

344
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,120
Blake Auster's Exploring Mormon
Thought series.

345
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:46,920
So.
Be told I found out about it

346
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:52,360
last night on a podcast so I kid
you not yeah, we I was talking I

347
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,960
was talking to another guy and
his will be released this

348
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,680
Saturday.
You'll come after him and this

349
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,080
came up.
Wow.

350
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,040
Well Blake Osler has absolutely
changed my life.

351
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,400
He rejects Adam, God, and
there's some other things I

352
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,720
don't agree with, but 85% of
what he says is absolute solid

353
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,200
gold and it has completely
changed my life.

354
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,360
Learning how to think about the
gospel very rigorously while

355
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,160
still, while still maintaining
room for plenty of revelation

356
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,000
and spontaneity, but learning
how to really appreciate the

357
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,760
gospel rig is rigorously is
really rewarding.

358
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:32,320
So yeah, again, there's a
podcast called Exploring Mormon

359
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,040
thought.
And then there's his book

360
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,520
series.
So either one, I personally I

361
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,000
recommend the podcast cause the
book series is filled with that

362
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,280
philosophical jargon we were
talking about earlier.

363
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:49,360
But anyway, so on the Godhead
first, I'm just going to light

364
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,040
or slowly discuss the Latin
Trinity.

365
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,720
What we call the Trinity of
creedal Christianity is more

366
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,680
specifically known as the Latin
or classical Trinity.

367
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,320
So the way that creedal
Christians view the Latin

368
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,120
Trinity is that they are three
persons but one substance.

369
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,560
And I don't, I don't want a
straw man this, but it I do find

370
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:19,560
it to be quite illogical and not
not compatible with the Hebraic

371
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:21,440
scriptures, the Hebrew
scriptures at all.

372
00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:27,600
But so in in this Latin Trinity,
God is oneself with one first

373
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,760
person perspective.
In other words, these three

374
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:37,840
persons comprise one I like they
are, if I'm to say I versus you,

375
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:45,360
they are one I together somehow.
And, and unfortunately, in, in

376
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:49,760
late antiquity, all the early
attempts to solve this logical

377
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,160
problem were considered heresies
and people were like burning the

378
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,360
stake over this.
So any good solution people

379
00:22:56,360 --> 00:23:00,320
offered to this was considered a
heresy like modalism or, or

380
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,080
other things.
So just thought I'd mention that

381
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,840
it's, it's an innovation of late
antiquity, not Hebraic.

382
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,640
And it, it was codified in the
Nicene Creed in 325.

383
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,360
Now we're going to talk about
the Mormon Trinity.

384
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,440
We have what is called a social
Trinity.

385
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,600
So like I said, usually when we
say the Trinity, we're talking

386
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,240
about the Latin or classical
Trinity.

387
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:28,360
We have a social Trinity.
So our three that the Godhead

388
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:33,040
are three distinct centers of
consciousness with with first

389
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,760
person recognition.
And let's, let's look at what

390
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,680
Joseph Smith has to say about
this Teachings of the Prophet,

391
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,560
page 370.
I have always declared God to be

392
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,440
a distinct personage.
Jesus Christ, a separate and

393
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,680
distinct personage from God the
Father and the Holy Ghost was a

394
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,640
distinct personage and a spirit.
And these three constitute 3

395
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,040
distinct personages and three
gods.

396
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,920
If this is in accordance with
the New Testament, lo and

397
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,040
behold, we have three gods
anyhow, and they are plural.

398
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,680
And who can contradict it?
So, and he's right, man.

399
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:13,600
The Scriptures are pretty plain.
So these three gods our our the

400
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,360
God, the Mormon godhead, which I
believe is biblical, the

401
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:21,560
biblical Godhead, they share all
knowledge and desires in common

402
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,560
except first person knowledge,
which is experiential knowledge.

403
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,920
So for instance, the Father does
not think I hung on the cross on

404
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,240
this earth to save mankind.
Only the Son can think that.

405
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,360
But other other than that first
person knowledge, they share all

406
00:24:37,360 --> 00:24:41,720
knowledge in common.
And I just want to read some

407
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,680
verses.
Second Nephi Chapter 9 verse 20.

408
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,080
Oh how great the holiness of our
God.

409
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,320
For He knoweth all things, and
there is not anything saved.

410
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:55,040
He knows it.
Then DNC 8841, he comprehendeth

411
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,560
all things and all things are
before him and all things are

412
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,360
round about Him, and He is above
all things and all things and is

413
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:04,800
through all things and is round
about all things and all things

414
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,280
are by him and of him, even God
forever and ever.

415
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,520
Now let's move back to the Latin
Trinity one more time.

416
00:25:13,360 --> 00:25:16,280
So I'm here's our first big
philosophical word.

417
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:21,320
The creator is ontologically
distinct from his creatures In

418
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,000
the Latin Trinity.
When we're talking about

419
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,800
ontology, we're talking about
different kind.

420
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,320
So to say the creator is
ontologically distinct means he

421
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,960
is a different species than his
creatures, which would be us in

422
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,880
the Latin Trinity.
Humanity are his creatures, He's

423
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,720
the creator.
They're two different species.

424
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:44,880
However, in the Mormon social
Trinity, there is no ontological

425
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:46,640
distinction.
We are the same kind.

426
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,920
We're the same species.
There's no ontological

427
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,360
distinction between creator and
his created children.

428
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,760
And I'm I put created in quotes
because our intelligence is

429
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,160
eternal.
And yes, there there was an

430
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,480
element of creation.
If you, if you do believe that

431
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,360
intelligence is progressed to
become spirits and then which

432
00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:09,560
progressed to obtain a body.
So yeah, there, there seems to

433
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,360
be a difference.
Or we we were created to some

434
00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:15,760
degree, like recreated in his
image in the pre existence, but

435
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,000
but we're also Co eternal with
him in a way.

436
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,120
And another thing about the
Mormon social Trinity, God is a

437
00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:26,000
capital H human.
He possesses a fullness of

438
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:31,440
humanity and this has to do.
This is in the Bible.

439
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,880
It's the anthropomorphic
principle or the anthropic

440
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,720
principle.
God has arms and legs and a head

441
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,040
and a torso and walks and talks
like a man, That's all.

442
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,840
Yes, yes, exactly.
He's the most moved mover.

443
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:53,680
He, he feels and he walks and
talks like we do, so that that's

444
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,760
the Godhead.
Now let's talk about exaltation

445
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:04,280
and what that entails.
So exaltation in this is sort of

446
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,240
a different take, but I can show
it in Scripture.

447
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,160
Exaltation emerges from their
perfectly loving covenant

448
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,960
relationship, and it cannot be
obtained alone or in a state of

449
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,200
alienation, but it must be
obtained through total

450
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:25,480
consecration.
And so the Godhead's glory with

451
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,360
their exaltation, it emerges
from their choice to perfectly

452
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:33,880
embody faith, hope, and charity.
And these attributes are

453
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,600
necessarily interpersonal.
When we talk about faith, hope

454
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,440
and charity, it always relates.
There's always a relation

455
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,240
between US and someone else,
whether it's God or a fellow

456
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,480
man.
So the Godhead have Zion

457
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,360
together, they are of 1 heart
and one mind.

458
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:55,360
And the same means by which we
obtain exaltation, all laws,

459
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:58,880
commandments and rituals and
scripture are instituted to

460
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,160
teach us how to obtain the
relationship they have.

461
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:06,280
So think about it, if the way we
become exalted is to become one

462
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,560
with our fellow man and with
God, that's the very way they

463
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,520
obtain exaltation.
And here's here's the

464
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,680
traditional view in Mormonism,
at least in my experience

465
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,080
growing up in the church, it's
legalistic and it's

466
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,520
transactional, not very
relational.

467
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,720
If I just learn to master the
laws of the universe, I will go

468
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,280
off into some corner of space
and have my own planet.

469
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,920
I I've grown up and I've left
the house.

470
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,440
However, that is literally the
exact opposite of what God

471
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,280
wants.
You know, he wants total unity.

472
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,600
So.
Which which I would agree with,

473
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,720
right?
Because just like it wouldn't

474
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:47,600
make any sense for us to nurture
and foster relationships here to

475
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,760
have mend on the other side.
Likewise, what would be the

476
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,760
point of having this
relationship with God and then

477
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,640
having it simply disappear once
we get to the point where He's

478
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,480
at currently?
Yeah.

479
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,360
Or at least have it be kind of
distant.

480
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,920
You know what I mean, right.
The Celestial Kingdom is a

481
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,520
state.
I'm sure there is a place in the

482
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,880
midst of the universe that is
dedicated to celestial society,

483
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,680
but it is more, more than that.
It is a state of being.

484
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,760
Did the Father and Son leave
celestial glory when they

485
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,280
visited Joseph Smith here on
Earth?

486
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,720
No, they they enjoy celestial
unity with them, sit with each

487
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,160
other and all the gods all the
time, no matter where they are.

488
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,440
Well, and we can even see this
kind of on the the micro and

489
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,360
some things Brigham Young
stated, right couple talks out

490
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,840
of the Journal of Discourse is
saying that you don't have to

491
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,440
wait to die to experience
heaven.

492
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,800
If you have if, if, if you're
raising a righteous posterity

493
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,880
and you have good relationship
with your wife or wives, it can

494
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,200
be a heaven now, right?
Maybe not as glorified as what

495
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,280
it will be on the other side,
but it's still, it's still a

496
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,280
piece of that now.
Yeah, you can.

497
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,360
You can enter the celestial
world in this life.

498
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,120
And like you said it, it's not
like, is it?

499
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,520
It's not as if you were in the
Celestial Kingdom, but you can

500
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,800
be a celestial spirit in this
life with a celestial connection

501
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,280
to God.
So, yeah, I, in fact, I, I

502
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,160
listened to your discussion with
Justin Frankham that I mentioned

503
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,560
at the beginning of this
discussion between me and you

504
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,560
and you guys talked about
pulling heaven down to earth.

505
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,880
And that's exactly what we're
talking about.

506
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,440
That's the whole goal, to square
the circle.

507
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:30,800
That's what you, that's what you
brought up.

508
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,720
So I'm going to read some quotes
or some scriptures.

509
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,840
I mean, John said, I'm going to
show that they share glory and

510
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,280
that they are one and that they
are exalted together.

511
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,040
And that does probably
contradict some traditional

512
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,520
views because the Holy Ghost
maybe doesn't have a body and

513
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,480
the Son didn't have a body until
he came here.

514
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,320
But but I think the Scriptures
show that they did have some

515
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,920
sort of fullness of glory
together.

516
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,280
So John 1720 through 23.
And the glory which thou gavest

517
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,600
me, I've given them that they
may be 1 even as we are one, I

518
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,400
in them and Thou in me, that
they may, that they may be made

519
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,560
perfect in one, and that the
world may know that Thou was

520
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,960
sent me, and has loved them as
Thou has loved me now.

521
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:23,840
DNC 88125 And above all things,
clothe yourselves with the bond

522
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,640
of charity, as with a mantle,
which is the bond of perfectness

523
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,640
and peace.
So charity's interpersonal

524
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,880
charity is the bond of
perfectness, of exaltation and

525
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,000
peace.
OK, now this is a quote from

526
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,400
Blake Osler exploring, Exploring
Mormon Thought, Volume 2,

527
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,360
Chapter 7.
Humans are deified by entering

528
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,240
into the same type of covenant
relationship with the Godhead

529
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,680
that constitutes the divine
unity.

530
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,800
So we've talked a lot about
glory, what that is.

531
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,200
So let's talk about another
another kind of big word coming

532
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,080
up.
And I hope nobody tunes out.

533
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,840
I hope nobody's already tuned
out because of, you know, some

534
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,160
of this because.
You're good, but I do.

535
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,840
I do want to stop here for a
second and talk about this for a

536
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,520
little bit.
Yeah, please.

537
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:23,000
So are you saying that Christ
was already deified, so to

538
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,040
speak, before he came here?
Is that kind of the contention

539
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,280
I'm picking up on?
That I'm, I'm contending that

540
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,280
I'm open to being wrong.
It's not an integral piece of

541
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,720
this discussion, but I do, I do
believe the scriptures actually

542
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,920
make that clear.
And it's, it's just our

543
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:43,200
tradition that has sort of
prevented us from believing that

544
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,400
or whatever.
And yes, I understand a body.

545
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,440
I'm going to, I'm going to show
that having a body is necessary

546
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,320
for a fullness of joy.
But but that's part of that

547
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,280
experiential knowledge, right
with the in the pre existence

548
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,800
with the Father, they existed in
the everlasting covenant and

549
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,840
therefore Christ had all
knowledge except for

550
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,920
experiential knowledge.
He was sinless in the pre

551
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,480
existence and he didn't need a
body to overcome his alienation

552
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,080
from God because he was fully
unified with God.

553
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,600
He, he already lived perfect
love.

554
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,720
He needed a body for the
experience and to help our sorry

555
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,280
butts.
To help atone for our sorry

556
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,520
butts.
OK, so let let me let me ask

557
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,560
this question here then a little
bit because she said something

558
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:30,640
that I find interesting.
Are you thinking that that in

559
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,280
the pre existence we send there
as well as here?

560
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:39,280
We, I don't know, I I've thought
about this, I don't think I can

561
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,440
say that we sinned per SE.
I think it's possible, but I do

562
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,520
know this.
We did not to give ourselves

563
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,560
fully to God in loving unity.
We made the choice not to.

564
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,800
And the proof is none of us were
in the Godhead.

565
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,440
None of us participated fully in
the everlasting covenant as as

566
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,640
the as the Godhead.
You know what I mean?

567
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,160
Right.
But OK, so, so here's where

568
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,800
where it would get tricky,
right?

569
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:15,199
If that's what was required to
go into Unity there, why

570
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,199
wouldn't we have done that?
Because we were already there,

571
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:22,080
right?
Instead it it it seems to me and

572
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,880
and again, just ideas willing to
be wrong.

573
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:30,400
But from what I read it, it
sounds like part of the plan is

574
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:35,679
to come here so that we can gain
the experience necessary to be

575
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:39,040
able to then enter the union,
right?

576
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,159
It seems like the more more
mortal toil is, is the necessary

577
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:50,159
ingredient to allow us to have
the perspective necessary to

578
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,040
join with them in unity.
Does that make sense?

579
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,720
Yes, and so you're saying it was
maybe metaphysically impossible

580
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:00,800
for us to be in that unity
without a body in a way.

581
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,240
And and I, I, I, and here's why
I disagree.

582
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:05,720
But again, I'm open to being
wrong.

583
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,680
Here's why I disagree.
Because Christ literally said we

584
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,080
were one and he is mentioned as
being in the everlasting

585
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,480
covenant.
He did it without a body,

586
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,640
apparently.
And we're, no, we're not

587
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,520
ontologically different than him
and God.

588
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,920
We are the same kind.
So it was our, I think it was

589
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:30,160
our choice.
And I think experience helps us

590
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,560
grow in ways that enable us to
love more fully.

591
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,560
That's evident.
Like that is the whole point of

592
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,080
life.
So I think Christ, for whatever

593
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,440
reason, and the Holy Ghost
chose, they made the choice to,

594
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,320
to, to dwell in this perfect
loving unity and we didn't.

595
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,880
That's the difference between US
and the Godhead.

596
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,040
That's why Elior Walker and Dave
Sanders aren't mentioned in DNC

597
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,000
or teachings of the Prophet 190
page 190.

598
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,480
You know what I mean?
So that's, that's my contention.

599
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:06,440
It's an agency thing, not a, not
a lack of age.

600
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,320
I think we have the agency to do
it, but I think we lack the

601
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,160
experience to teach us how to
give ourselves fully and for

602
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,760
whatever reason the the Son and
the Holy Ghost made that choice.

603
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:24,920
Hey, so if I look at Abraham
where it talks about, you know,

604
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,400
where, where the Lord is viewing
all these spirits and said, you

605
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,240
know, these will I make my
leaders or or my rulers or

606
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:34,520
whatnot.
There does seem to be an an idea

607
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:42,640
that that some have more.
Oh intelligence, than than we do

608
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,160
right while while while you and
I were over sharing a bag of

609
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,120
Doritos, they were putting in
the work right.

610
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,240
I don't necessarily have have an
issue with that part of the

611
00:36:53,240 --> 00:37:00,800
argument, but if if all that was
required was to go and be in

612
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:07,040
perfect communion with God in
the pre existence and then the

613
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,880
plan was, well, Jesus will just
have to come down and atone at

614
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,600
that point.
I don't see why he would need to

615
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:20,000
be tested then, right, Because
and he he gets tested and he go,

616
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,960
he samples mortality, right?
He's thrust in the middle of it.

617
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,880
Now we can say that's just
because he was awesome and he

618
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,720
could handle it, but that in
some ways to me would make God

619
00:37:32,720 --> 00:37:35,880
into a respecter of persons,
right?

620
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:43,360
Because I think there was, I
think there's always a chance

621
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,840
that that maybe Jesus didn't
fulfill his mission, right?

622
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,960
That that that was on the table.
Yeah, yeah.

623
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,560
I believe he had agency.
He didn't have to.

624
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,240
Right.
And so if he was, if he was that

625
00:37:56,240 --> 00:38:02,280
perfect from the beginning, why
make him sample the the wares of

626
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:08,520
mortality and go through that
bitterness on top of having to

627
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,400
perform the atonement?
You see what I'm saying?

628
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,760
Yeah, and I have an answer for
that.

629
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,560
But first let me go to what you
mentioned about Abraham and the

630
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:18,880
noble and great ones.
Yeah, we're talking about the

631
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,800
divine council here, the Binet
Elohim, the sons of God, which

632
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,000
are mentioned in the Old
Testament as being the lesser

633
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:31,000
gods, lowercase D gods.
So there was definitely a

634
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,720
gradient of intelligence and men
like Abraham were in God's

635
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:38,760
divine pre mortal council and
just in God's divine council.

636
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,480
Regardless, Now regarding so I
totally agree with you regarding

637
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,640
the son.
Why did he need mortality if he

638
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,080
was already in perfect unity?
Well, it's the experiential

639
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,480
knowledge once again, he because
he's in perfect loving unity

640
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,280
with the Father in the pre
existence, which the scriptures

641
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,960
seem to heavily indicate he
possesses all knowledge that

642
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,160
it's possible for him to have.
That is possible because he is

643
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,000
in and through all things with
the Father.

644
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,400
He is wrapped up in covenant
relationship with the Father.

645
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,040
But what's not possible for him
to have that first hand

646
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:20,520
experiential knowledge that
cause experience and knowledge

647
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:25,760
increase the capacity for joy.
And then also the scripture say

648
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,400
material and spirit inseparably
connected increase your capacity

649
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,880
for joy as well.
So what I'm contending is not

650
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,760
that Christ had all knowledge,
period, and He was like as fully

651
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,720
exalted as he could be, but that
He did live in perfect loving

652
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:44,880
unity with the Father.
He did share in a fullness of

653
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,280
divinity because of that, but He
did not have the same experience

654
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,120
of the Father, nor did he have a
body.

655
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,160
So to become truly like the
Father, more like the Father,

656
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,000
and increase his capacity for
eternal joy and His capacity to

657
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,800
help other beings, He came here
and experienced what He

658
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,840
experienced.
That's my contention.

659
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:07,800
Not sure I'm.
Not sure I'd buy it yet.

660
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,880
I'll be honest with you.
We'll see how this goes.

661
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,960
But for but for now, I I do have
more questions and answers on

662
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,840
this, but we'll, we'll go on and
see how this goes.

663
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,880
Well, even if you don't buy it,
the good thing is the the most

664
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,760
important.
The heart of this discussion is

665
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,280
not contingent upon my opinion
on that SO.

666
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,160
OK, OK.
So none of this that we're

667
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,920
talking about now is integral to
to what's what the main thrust

668
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,320
of this is going to be.
Exactly.

669
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:41,320
OK, I, I enjoy including certain
tangential topics when I'm

670
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,520
discussing these core concepts
because, OK, I think they're, I

671
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,040
think they're edifying and
interesting, so.

672
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,960
OK, no, totally.
Now, you do realize your camera

673
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,800
just went off, right?
Oh, did it really?

674
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,200
Yep.
All right, hold on, give me one

675
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:07,280
SEC.
Now you're back Yep excellent.

676
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,320
So let's move on.
I'm Mormons love their

677
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,240
tradition, so don't hate me for
thinking trying to think outside

678
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:15,720
the box and I say that to.
The listener.

679
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:18,600
I enjoyed this sort of stuff.
Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

680
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,160
And if I'm wrong, that's fine,
man.

681
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:21,320
I love God either way.
Yeah.

682
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:22,520
No.
Good.

683
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:25,520
Yeah.
So let's talk about, we've

684
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,760
discussed the Godhead and what
their exaltation is like, what

685
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,040
their relationships like.
Let's talk about now the

686
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,520
metaphysics of Mormonism.
And I, again, I don't want to

687
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:37,840
come off as pretentious by using
these philosophical words, but

688
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:43,240
So what metaphysics means is or
has to do with is the nature of

689
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:46,280
existence.
So it often deals with the

690
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:50,800
unseen aspects of reality or
what's below the surface.

691
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,600
So when I use the term Mormon
metaphysics or metaphysics, I'm

692
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,320
talking about the spiritual
realm, the thing that lies under

693
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,120
what we can see and interact
with physically.

694
00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:08,240
So metaphysics equal spiritual.
So the Lord revealed to Joseph

695
00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:13,080
Smith a medical metaphysical
system of monism.

696
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:19,320
Now monism means one meaning,
intelligence and spirit and

697
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,240
matter all exist on the same
spectrum.

698
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,800
All substances exist on one
spectrum.

699
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:33,080
Intelligent spirit are a kind of
matter, and DNC 131 seven

700
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:38,040
through 8 says there is no such
thing as immaterial matter.

701
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,080
All spirit is matter, but it is
more fine or pure, and can only

702
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,000
be discerned by purer eyes.
We cannot see it, but when our

703
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,400
bodies are purified we shall see
that it is all matter.

704
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:55,160
Now, this is opposed to the
dualism which was prominent just

705
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,240
before Joseph's day, where
there's a distinction between

706
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:00,720
mind and matter.
They don't exist on the same

707
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,000
spectrum.
The universe is made-up of a

708
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,440
spectrum of mind and a spectrum
of matter.

709
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,640
But the Lord reveals to us that
that's not true, that all things

710
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,480
exist on one spectrum.
All truth is circumscribed into

711
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:17,840
one great hole, right?
So, so in Mormonism, a man,

712
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,960
Mormonism is so beautiful.
There is a spirit, light, glory,

713
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:28,880
life force or energy that
emanates from the Godhead and

714
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:34,000
gives life to all things,
influences all things, operates

715
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,840
within all things and glorifies
all beings that receive it and

716
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,840
yield to it.
And so I'm just going to read a

717
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,200
few scriptures I've been reading
a lot.

718
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:49,920
So DNC 5024 says, that which is
of God is light, and he that

719
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,720
receiveth light, and continue
within God receiveth more light,

720
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:57,000
and that light grow with
brighter and brighter, until the

721
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,880
perfect day.
Now DNC 88, seven through 13,

722
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,000
says this is the light of
Christ, As also He is in the

723
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,000
sun, and the light of the sun,
and the power thereof by which

724
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,960
it was made.
And also He is in the moon, and

725
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,440
is the light of the moon, and
the power thereof by which it

726
00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,560
was made, as also the light of
the stars, and the power thereof

727
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,840
by which they were made, And the
earth also in the power thereof.

728
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,960
Even the earth upon which you
stand, and the light which

729
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:27,600
shineth, which giveth you light,
is through Him who enlighteneth

730
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,680
your eyes, which is the same
light that quickeneth your

731
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,320
understandings, which light
preceded force in the presence

732
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,280
of God to fill the immensity of
space.

733
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,760
The light which is in all
things, which giveth life to all

734
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:43,040
things, which is the law by
which all things are governed.

735
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,960
Even the power of God, who
sitteth upon His throne, who is

736
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,480
in the bosom of eternity, who is
in the midst of all things.

737
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:57,880
And finally, DNC 9336, the glory
of God is intelligence, or in

738
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,880
other words, light and truth.
So my point here is to show

739
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,560
that, you know, I grew up for
some reason in the church, we

740
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,320
grew up with some Protestant
notions because nobody teaches

741
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,880
meaty doctrine.
And I thought, yeah, there's

742
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:14,240
like the ethereal and then
there's the the physical,

743
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:16,760
there's the spiritual.
So I kind of had a duelist

744
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:22,320
mentality naturally, but but I'm
just trying to show the light

745
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,080
that or spirit that emanates
from God is 1.

746
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:30,240
It's it's one thing and it fills
the entire universe and all

747
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:33,400
things exist on the spectrum
with that light or spirit.

748
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:39,520
And this is their this is this
is a aspect of their exaltation.

749
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,400
They are in and through all
things.

750
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:43,200
This is how they know all
things.

751
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,560
They are in profound
relationship with all things.

752
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:54,280
So in a way, in a way, the
Godhead is 1 substance as the

753
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,720
Nicene Creed says, but not in
the same ideological way.

754
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:03,120
Their three spirits proceed
forth from their bodies to not

755
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,800
only fill the immensity of
space, but they are completely

756
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,600
in and through each other.
Their spirits are inseparably

757
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,880
intertwined.
They proceed forth from their

758
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,120
immediate presences to to be
wrapped up in this covenant

759
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,240
unity.
Together they share the same

760
00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:22,480
light or same spirit.
Just as when the Holy Ghost

761
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,720
takes up abode in you, when you
receive the remission of sins

762
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:29,240
and and do the first saving
ordinances, just as God takes up

763
00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:33,000
abode in you, at that moment
they have taken up abode in one

764
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:34,880
another.
Gotcha.

765
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:40,120
And we are invited to
participate fully in this

766
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,520
everlasting covenant as exalted
beings.

767
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,120
But we needed we were invited
from the beginning to

768
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,880
participate fully in this
covenant and the the God's

769
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,160
dealings with us make that
evident, you know, constantly

770
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,960
revealing the religion of heaven
to us to and restoring it to

771
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:00,120
help us participate in that
covenant.

772
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,960
He he wants us in that thing and
there's no reason to think he

773
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,800
didn't want us to participate
fully in that before mortality.

774
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,320
But we needed obviously a
physical body to grow, to learn

775
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,160
how to love more Foley, and to
overcome our selfishness.

776
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,360
Whereas it appears the Son and
Holy Ghost chose perfect love

777
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,680
from the beginning based on the
statements of Joseph Smith and

778
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:26,040
the Scriptures, and they were
apparently free of selfishness.

779
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,880
So let me ask you this.
What would creation then look

780
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:34,440
like?
And when I say creation, I mean

781
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,960
mortality.
What would mortality look like

782
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,880
to us if we would have entered
if if your supposition is

783
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,640
correct here and we would have
entered into that covenant

784
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,200
relationship on on in the pre
existence?

785
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,560
I think we entered it, but we
didn't participate fully in it.

786
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,280
I think all of humanity was in
covenant relationship.

787
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:57,280
That's why that's why we were
included in the pre mortal

788
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,880
council and given bodies because
we were already.

789
00:48:00,240 --> 00:48:03,240
But what would it have looked
like had we all been full

790
00:48:03,240 --> 00:48:08,000
participants and and well, it
seems that we all would have

791
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,280
been a lot more like Christ and
this hell hole would have been a

792
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,360
lot more like heaven.
And I'm not saying we all have

793
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:18,760
agency.
So I'm not saying I'm not saying

794
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:22,560
it would have been perfect per
SE, even though Christ was

795
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:27,480
perfect himself.
But if we had chosen to become

796
00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:32,200
that kind of character in the
pre existence and sort of forged

797
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,240
that character, I can only
imagine it would have carried

798
00:48:35,240 --> 00:48:37,360
over into mortality, don't you
think?

799
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,560
Well I'm I'm trying to to square
some scriptures I'm thinking of

800
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,880
of off the top of my head,
right?

801
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,160
Yeah, you should share.
That would right.

802
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:50,680
And and I don't know where they
are.

803
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,880
You know, I'm thinking of of in
the Book of Mormon where it

804
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,640
talks about these are the days
of your probation that Adam

805
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:00,720
fell, that men may be and men
are, that they might have joy.

806
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,240
I'm thinking of of all these
things, right?

807
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:09,200
That that I don't think, and
this is just me and I'm trying

808
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:10,800
to wrap my head around it here a
little bit.

809
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,040
I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm just saying it seems to

810
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:18,920
contradict the plan that that
certainly Joseph illuminated

811
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,240
through the Restoration, right?
That that there is this idea of

812
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:26,560
coming here to be tested.
Yeah, absolutely.

813
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,680
I don't think that changes.
So, so do you think there's

814
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:37,080
still testing that would happen
as if we fully participated in

815
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,520
that?
Yeah, 'cause Christ was tested

816
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,080
and and again, the experiential
knowledge is priceless.

817
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,440
Like that's what if you study
Brigham Young and Orson Pratt,

818
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,160
that is what the gods are doing
their whole existence.

819
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:55,360
They are constantly oscillating
between fall and exaltation.

820
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,920
According to some statements,
they are constantly seeking

821
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,760
greater experience so they can
so they can have greater joy and

822
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,000
so they can love more fully.
So I think it it would have been

823
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,440
because Christ was tested to the
extreme.

824
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,520
So I think it still would have
been a mortal probation.

825
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:15,760
But but also those scripture.
I don't think there's any

826
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:20,320
logical contradiction between
what I'm positing and and some

827
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:21,560
of the scriptures you alluded
to.

828
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,560
Another thing is those
scriptures were given by God

829
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,360
with the knowledge that we
weren't like that.

830
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,200
You know what I mean?
So maybe they would read

831
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,200
differently had we all happened
to participate fully in the

832
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,440
everlasting covenant and chosen
perfect love.

833
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,240
Maybe, maybe the scriptures
would read a little bit

834
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:40,040
differently.
I'm not.

835
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:41,760
Maybe not though.
You know what I mean?

836
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,960
Right, OK.
Yeah, man, I promise.

837
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,320
I I hope it's not all.
No, no, you're good.

838
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:52,640
Controversial.
Just doesn't bug me at all.

839
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:54,160
I enjoy these kind of
conversations.

840
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,240
You're good and you're, I
appreciate your pushback too.

841
00:50:57,240 --> 00:51:00,640
This is good 'cause then people
can, can study and think for

842
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,640
themselves and follow the spirit
to their own conclusions.

843
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,720
So I'm glad you're pushing back
or at least probing, you know,

844
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:17,800
So I'm just going to go into
kind of why we needed to come

845
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,760
down to mortality.
You actually kind of just

846
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,880
touched on it.
But Abraham 324 through 25 and

847
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,480
there stood one among them that
was like unto God, by the way,

848
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,000
that's that's totally Michael.
His name means one like unto God

849
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:34,160
and and, and and the church
would tell you that that was

850
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:38,640
Christ, which you know, Christ
definitely would fit the same

851
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:40,760
pattern or mold because of who
he is.

852
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,040
But anyway, and there stood one
among them that was like unto

853
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,400
God, Mika El.
And he said unto those who were

854
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,960
with him, We will go down, for
there is space there, and we

855
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,000
will take of these materials,
and we will make an earth where

856
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:57,120
on these may dwell.
And we will prove them here with

857
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,440
to see if they will do all
things whatsoever the Lord their

858
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:05,240
God shall command them.
We're here to be proved and, and

859
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:09,400
it and this is a proving ground,
because it is much harder to

860
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:14,040
exercise faith, hope and charity
in mortality because we are

861
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,440
veiled from each other and
veiled from God.

862
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,760
You know, Can you imagine
basking in God's infinite light

863
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:25,760
like I like Lucifer still made a
choice to reject it, but but

864
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,280
here it's so much harder to to
freely give ourselves to God and

865
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:33,760
to one another.
But but learning to do that

866
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,640
despite the increased challenge
is what pulls heaven down to

867
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,600
earth and is what helps us
overcome our apparent handicaps

868
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:48,680
in the pre mortal existence.
So I posit that despite having

869
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:52,400
perfect love already as because
they were participants of the

870
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,960
everlasting covenant, the Son
and Holy Ghost desired bodies

871
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:57,640
for greater experiential
knowledge.

872
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:02,640
And DNC 9333 says the elements
are eternal and spirit and

873
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,400
element inseparably connected,
receive a fullness of joy.

874
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:10,720
And also, of course, the Son out
of pure love for us volunteered

875
00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:14,800
to make an atonement for us,
which is, you know, nothing

876
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,600
short of a miracle and a
blessing for us.

877
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,360
So that sort of wraps up our
section on the everlasting

878
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:25,320
covenant.
I invite everyone to go study

879
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:29,560
that and, and study that term
throughout the scriptures and,

880
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:31,560
you know, come to their own
knowledge on that.

881
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,880
But now this leads into the
doctrines of fall and atonement.

882
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:42,560
So we we needed to fall into
mortality to gain experiential

883
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:48,400
knowledge and Christ is going to
help us learn how to become at

884
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:53,800
1:00 with God how to how to
atone basically, So I'm able to

885
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:56,160
share my screen correct?
Yes.

886
00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:10,090
All right, let's see.
OK, Let me know if you can see

887
00:54:10,090 --> 00:54:13,570
that.
It's coming up.

888
00:54:13,570 --> 00:54:16,730
It says double clean.
Click to enter screen mode.

889
00:54:18,810 --> 00:54:20,290
There we go.
Cool.

890
00:54:20,290 --> 00:54:23,600
Gotcha.
OK, so to set up.

891
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,520
Campbell, the hero's journey.
That's right.

892
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,800
To set up fall and atonement, we
need to discuss the hero's

893
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:37,040
journey first.
Now, the hero's journey is found

894
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:42,440
in all the greatest texts of the
world, the Holy Bible, the Book

895
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,440
of Mormon, the Egyptian Pyramid
Texts, the Sumerian Epic of

896
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:51,080
Gilgamesh, the Babylonian and
Muna Elish, and the Iliad and

897
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,080
Odyssey, and so on.
I could go on forever.

898
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,520
Pretty much almost any story
contains a hero's journey.

899
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:03,600
It is an eternal pattern, and
it's characterized by three

900
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,160
stages, and I'm going to give
some examples.

901
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,200
These 3 stages have various
names.

902
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:16,760
So our first example is Trouble
at Home, Exile Abroad, so so you

903
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,360
start at the top.
For the listener, the Hero's

904
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,440
Journey is a cycle.
So picture a circle in your

905
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,160
head.
At the top of the circle is

906
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,160
Trouble at Home.
Then you go down to the bottom

907
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,560
of the circle, exile abroad, and
then back to the top.

908
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:37,560
Happy Homecoming.
Next example, at the top is

909
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:42,440
Separation, at the bottom is
initiation, and then you return

910
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:48,920
to the top again for the return.
And this is the next 1 is my

911
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,360
favorite rendition of the hero's
journey because it's so relevant

912
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:57,600
to the gospel.
At the top is creation, at the

913
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,880
bottom of this cycle is fall,
and then at the top again is

914
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,960
atonement, or at one meant.
It is a cycle, a cycle of living

915
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,120
and being that we all
participate in.

916
00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:16,920
And it is also a fractal, an
eternal, a spiraling pattern.

917
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,840
So here pictured, I had a golden
spiral or the Fibonacci

918
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,960
sequence.
So the the pattern of the hero's

919
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,440
journey is not just a circle,
but it is a fractal.

920
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:30,040
It is a spiral because you
continue this journey upward

921
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:33,000
through the eternities forever,
according to Brittanyon, Norris

922
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:36,080
and Pratt, right?
Yeah, no, it's, it's the, the

923
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:40,640
the golden spiral is, is AB
absolutely a, an apartment

924
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,080
description of of eternal
progression going on forever,

925
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,880
never stopping.
Right, and it's it's obviously

926
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,720
not an accident that God put it
everywhere in nature because

927
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:53,680
remember, all things testify of
Christ and he's the hero.

928
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,480
So let's move on to the next
slide.

929
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:02,160
So I just have illustrated
before I had a golden spiral.

930
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,080
Now I have a golden spiral with
creation, fall and atonement

931
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,000
repeated all the way upward
through eternity, you could say.

932
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:12,320
So just repeating creation,
fall, atonement, creation, fall,

933
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:18,680
atonement.
So the hero's journey is based

934
00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:24,000
off of or, or I guess the
original hero's journey is

935
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,360
manifest in two forms.
And these are the two oldest

936
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:31,440
stories in the world and all of
the most ancient religious texts

937
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,400
these stories are portrayed.
And this is where the hero's

938
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,960
journey comes from.
So first is the creation story.

939
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:42,000
So we just talked about the
three phases of the hero's

940
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,880
journey.
So the first phase of the

941
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,240
creation story which is which
again is the archetypal hero's

942
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,760
journey.
The first phase, the creator God

943
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,960
exists in the midst of the
uncreated chaotic cosmos.

944
00:57:55,520 --> 00:58:00,440
Second he falls or he wrestles
with this pre-existing chaos by

945
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:06,040
extending his light to fill it.
And 3rd, he successfully orders

946
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:08,800
it into creation.
And this is where we get our

947
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:11,960
doctrine of creation X materia
or creation out.

948
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,600
Creation out of materials
instead of out of nothing.

949
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:19,880
Because I'm pretty sure every
single ancient religious text

950
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,080
hints at or teaches creation X
materia.

951
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,120
Creation X nihilo, or creation
out of nothing is a later

952
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:30,320
innovation, just like the Latin
Trinity is.

953
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:37,560
So Yep, Yep, the next one, the
next archetypal hero's journey.

954
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,880
And, and this one is heavily
related to to the creation story

955
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:45,120
by the way, is the combat myth.
So the first phase, starting at

956
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,160
the top of the cycle, the
creator God and his divine

957
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:52,880
counsel exist in harmony.
Second phase, fall, they are

958
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,440
battled against by rebellious
God or beast.

959
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,120
Think about a serpent, a dragon
or a devil.

960
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,280
Third atonement.
And then they're victorious when

961
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:07,400
the creator God or a beloved son
of his defeats the enemy,

962
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,640
sometimes sacrificing their life
to do so.

963
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:16,480
And again, these are the two
oldest stories in the world.

964
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:18,960
And this is where the the Hero's
journey comes from.

965
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:22,120
So I'm going to stop sharing for
now.

966
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,480
We can see that pattern repeated
in a lot of different myths,

967
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,600
right?
Oh yeah, Norse.

968
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:36,160
Norse mythology had Thorinodin
right in the in the Greek

969
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,200
pantheon you had you had Zeus
and Hercules right.

970
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,920
You always have a divine
offspring of the God.

971
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,720
Yeah, yeah.
And he's always taking one for

972
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,600
the team.
Yep, he is.

973
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:52,640
Yep.
So let's talk about Adam and

974
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:59,000
Yeshua, Adam and Jesus, the
archetypes of of fall and

975
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:03,360
atonement.
So we usually associate Adam

976
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,800
with the fall.
And Christ with the atonement.

977
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,880
However, it's important to
remember both of these holy men

978
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,800
embodied the pattern of
creation, fall, atonement.

979
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,880
So even though there is
rightfully an association, Adam,

980
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:21,520
with the fall of Christ of the
atonement, they both, dare I

981
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,520
say, perfectly embodied the
whole pattern.

982
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:30,600
So Adam fell for all mankind,
that we might be, that we might

983
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:32,840
have joy.
Every good Mormon should know

984
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:38,080
that verse and by exercising
faith in the atonement of Jesus

985
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:41,440
Christ and embodying the
commandments and ordinances, he

986
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:45,400
became at one with God again.
And pay attention to that word I

987
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,320
use embody.
I say this to the listener

988
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,240
because that is a key term and
we're going to talk about that

989
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,800
later.
But so Adam fell for us, and

990
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,600
just imagine how painful and
dreadful that would be.

991
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:03,280
You should read any everybody
should read The Pseudepigraphal

992
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:08,000
Life of Adam and Eve, and might
not be gospel truth, but it

993
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:11,720
really kind of makes you want to
weep for how hard their fall

994
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:13,280
must have been.
Yep.

995
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,200
Yeah, sounds like you've been
around the block and.

996
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:20,080
Yeah, no, I've, I've, I've dove
into some of those and and it is

997
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:24,400
heartbreaking because like it's,
it's certainly insinuated in

998
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:26,600
Mormonism, especially in the
temple ceremony.

999
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:31,800
There is a recognition that
happens once Eve partakes of the

1000
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:35,160
fruit, right?
She she references, oh, I know

1001
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:40,720
who I know you now, so to speak.
And and I can only imagine that

1002
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:43,120
coupled with that knowledge
would have been the knowledge

1003
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:48,480
from whence they came.
And so that fall is going to be

1004
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:55,280
very, very pronounced now.
Oh yeah, and just in my life,

1005
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:01,560
I've when I was like a late
teenager, early 20s, I've fallen

1006
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:04,840
from grace before, meaning I
have enjoyed the Holy Spirit and

1007
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:09,680
I have lost the Holy Ghost and
that I literally know.

1008
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,040
I know the pains of hell.
I know them.

1009
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:15,320
I in the torment of the soul, I
can't imagine what they went

1010
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:16,680
through.
You know what I mean?

1011
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:19,960
So.
Bless that they they reach their

1012
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,240
exaltation.
Yes.

1013
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,160
You mean beforehand?
Yeah, Can you imagine that

1014
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:28,280
descending from celestial to
celestial?

1015
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:30,800
That's crazy dude.
Yep, Yep.

1016
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:37,600
And then having to to then make
the conscious choice for their

1017
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:42,160
children.
And some people get mad when I

1018
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:46,200
say this.
What Adam and Eve done is every

1019
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:51,520
bit as much atoning in some ways
as what Jesus does in the sense

1020
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:56,760
of they fell so that we could be
what happened to Jesus.

1021
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:01,360
He fell that we could enter
again into God's presence.

1022
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:04,440
It is.
It is very much the same, the

1023
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,960
same thing.
Same exact pattern.

1024
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:12,720
Same exact pattern.
So we discussed Adam and his

1025
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:16,760
association with the fall.
Let's you know, Speaking of,

1026
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,080
let's discuss Christ and his
atonement.

1027
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,560
Christ atone for all mankind
that we might share eternal life

1028
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,640
with the Godhead, as you just
stated, Dave.

1029
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:31,440
And he fell.
Christ also fell, though He also

1030
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:35,960
fell because he condescended
into immortality below all

1031
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:40,520
things in a perfect walk with
God, that he might raise all

1032
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:44,680
beings unto God.
So, so we all embody creation,

1033
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:48,760
fall, atonement, even Adam and
Jesus.

1034
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:54,480
So atonement is a very rich word
that we take for granted.

1035
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,600
So let's go, let's get into the
word atonement.

1036
01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:04,360
The word atonement is a compound
of three words at one meant to

1037
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:08,760
be at 1.
William Tyndale coined this term

1038
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:13,560
when translating the Bible into
English and he was trying to

1039
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,760
describe what Christ's sacrifice
did for us.

1040
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,720
The the English word atonement
is not related to the Hebrew

1041
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:25,480
word kafar or the Greek catalog.
Semantically, Tyndale was trying

1042
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:28,800
to describe what he did and it's
it's an I love that he coined

1043
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:30,640
that word because it's perfect
in my opinion.

1044
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:35,800
But as I just alluded to, the
word atonement or at one mint is

1045
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,000
based on the Hebrew Kafar and
Greek catalog.

1046
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:45,040
So kafar means to cover.
In fact, cover sounds like

1047
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:49,320
Kafar, and that's not an
accident, as in to expiate sin

1048
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:53,320
by covering it, just as the
blood of animals covered the

1049
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:58,040
altar in ancient Israel.
And this is not a superficial

1050
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,080
covering.
Think of you being covered in or

1051
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:05,440
wrapped together with God.
It's a covenantal covering.

1052
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:10,040
It's relational, it's profound.
Now catalog.

1053
01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:14,720
The Greek denotes reconciliation
or a balancing of the books.

1054
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:19,120
So there is a being covered in
God being covered by God being

1055
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,760
reconciled to God.
That's where Tyndale coined the

1056
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:24,160
term at one MIT to be made at
one with him.

1057
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:28,960
Got you.
So most people who haven't

1058
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:33,720
really, I'm a total amateur when
it comes to philosophy and

1059
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:36,760
theology, but, but I, I am kind
of a geek.

1060
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:40,440
I, I do do love diving in and I
wouldn't say the philosophies of

1061
01:05:40,440 --> 01:05:42,520
men.
There's a such thing as good

1062
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:45,160
philosophy that that is edifying
to the soul.

1063
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:50,240
But most people who haven't
really dove into that world

1064
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:53,200
don't know that there are
different theories of atonement.

1065
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:58,240
Before the restoration, there
were several competing theories

1066
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:02,480
of atonement.
Oh gosh, I can't remember any of

1067
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,600
them off the top of my head.
But oh, like the the penal

1068
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:09,840
substitution theory, like
Christ, Christ was our whipping

1069
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,360
boy.
Like back back in medieval

1070
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:16,400
times, the king wouldn't or
couldn't whip his son because

1071
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,280
his son was royalty.
So they would have a servant boy

1072
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:21,640
be the whipping boy where they
would whip him when the king was

1073
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:25,000
mad at his son for goofing off,
he'd whip the whipping boy

1074
01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:26,960
instead.
That's that's what the penal

1075
01:06:26,960 --> 01:06:29,360
substitution theory is.
Christ is the whipping boy.

1076
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:32,560
And there's there's several
other competing theories of

1077
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,080
atonement because believe it or
not, the scriptures aren't

1078
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:39,360
exactly clear on what the
atonement exactly does and how

1079
01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:42,800
it exactly works.
Well, the restoration is

1080
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:46,640
incredible because the doctrine
of covenants in Book of Mormon

1081
01:06:46,640 --> 01:06:51,000
give us new a new theory of
atonement.

1082
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,800
And Blake Osler has coined the
term the compassion theory of

1083
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:58,760
atonement.
So as I was saying, atonement is

1084
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:02,760
not purely or at all.
Atonement is not needed because

1085
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,800
of penal substitution where
somebody has to pay the price

1086
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,840
because God is literally unable
or unwilling to forgive

1087
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:14,640
otherwise.
And yes, the demands of justice

1088
01:07:14,640 --> 01:07:17,520
need to be satisfied, but we we
should go over what that means.

1089
01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:23,840
Atonement is needed to enable
Christ to show us how to become

1090
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:27,400
at one with Him and the Father
and to rend our veils of

1091
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:32,080
unbelief that we draw near to
them and freely give ourselves

1092
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:33,880
to them in broken hearted
gratitude.

1093
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:39,920
In other words, the atonement is
actually interpersonal and not

1094
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,920
transactional.
Every other theory of atonement

1095
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:44,720
is transactional.
This for that.

1096
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:47,880
Well, since you guys messed up,
Christ is paying the price now.

1097
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:51,520
It's a transaction.
However, in Mormonism we have a

1098
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,480
very interpersonal atonement and
I'm going to show you that.

1099
01:07:55,240 --> 01:08:00,640
Mosiah 15, seven through 9.
Yeah, Even so he shall be LED

1100
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,160
crucified and slain, the flesh
becoming subject even unto

1101
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:07,240
death, the will of the Son being
swallowed up in the will of the

1102
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:09,880
Father.
And thus God breaketh the bands

1103
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:13,120
of death, having gained the
victory over death, giving the

1104
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,640
Son power to make intercession
for the children of men, having

1105
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:20,960
ascended into heaven, having the
bowels of mercy being filled

1106
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,160
with compassion toward the
children of men standing betwixt

1107
01:08:24,160 --> 01:08:25,680
them.
And justice, having broken the

1108
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:29,040
bands of death taken upon
himself their iniquity and their

1109
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:32,279
transgressions having redeemed
them and satisfied the demands

1110
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:34,680
of justice.
Now I do, I have two more

1111
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:38,319
scriptures to read, but I just
want to say when I sort of

1112
01:08:38,319 --> 01:08:41,960
denounce theories like the penal
substitution theory, the

1113
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:47,080
scriptures do paint that picture
partially, but that doesn't mean

1114
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:50,359
that's the whole picture.
And that doesn't mean we're

1115
01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:53,000
supposed to run with these
analogies that the apostles and

1116
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:56,880
prophets are giving us and like
and build a whole theory out of

1117
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:03,000
how it works with them.
So again, we're getting a more

1118
01:09:03,160 --> 01:09:05,600
compassionate atonement here in
Mormon scripture.

1119
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:09,120
Let's go on to Alma 711 through
13.

1120
01:09:10,319 --> 01:09:13,000
And he shall go forth suffering
pains and afflictions and

1121
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:16,040
temptations of every kind.
And this said, the Word might be

1122
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:18,800
fulfilled, which say, If He will
take upon him the pains and

1123
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:22,720
sicknesses of his people, and He
will take upon him death, that

1124
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,279
he may loose the bands of death
which bind His people.

1125
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:27,920
And He will take upon him their
infirmities.

1126
01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:31,040
That His bowels may be filled
with mercy according to the

1127
01:09:31,040 --> 01:09:34,080
flesh, that He may know
according to the flesh how to

1128
01:09:34,080 --> 01:09:36,920
sucker his people according to
their infirmities.

1129
01:09:37,439 --> 01:09:39,640
Now the Spirit knoweth all
things.

1130
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,359
Nevertheless, the Son of God
suffereth according to the flesh

1131
01:09:43,359 --> 01:09:46,040
that He might take upon him the
sins of His people, that He

1132
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:48,359
might blot out their
transgressions according to the

1133
01:09:48,359 --> 01:09:51,160
power of His deliverance.
And now behold, this is a

1134
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:55,040
testimony which is in me.
So not only does it showcase

1135
01:09:55,040 --> 01:10:02,160
that the atonement is compassion
based and not not like based on

1136
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:07,320
sort of this punishment, so to
speak, but it also shows that

1137
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:11,240
what I was saying earlier by
virtue of being connected in the

1138
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:14,040
everlasting covenant and having
a shared spirit that fills the

1139
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,560
immensity of space, Christ knows
all things.

1140
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:19,400
See now the Spirit knoweth all
things.

1141
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:22,560
Nevertheless, the Son of God
suffereth according to the

1142
01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:26,680
flesh, that He might take upon
Him the sins of his people, that

1143
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:28,760
He might blot out their
transgressions according to the

1144
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:30,800
power of His deliverance and so
on.

1145
01:10:31,440 --> 01:10:37,520
So and then one more.
DNC88 6HE that ascended up on

1146
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:42,040
high as also He descended below
all things in that He

1147
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:45,160
comprehended all things that He
might be in and through all

1148
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:53,280
things the light of truth.
So I I contend that Christ was

1149
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:56,840
already omniscient as possible,
as omniscient as it was possible

1150
01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,480
for him to be by virtue of the
everlasting covenant.

1151
01:11:00,920 --> 01:11:05,320
But he needed and desired this
first person experience to help

1152
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:09,800
draw us to him to be filled with
compassion for us to know how to

1153
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:12,640
help us.
And let's talk about actually

1154
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:15,640
the word compassion.
I forgot to mention it a few

1155
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:19,640
verses ago.
Compassion literally comes from

1156
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:24,920
the Latin cum passione, and it
means literally to be with

1157
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:30,120
Christ needed to be with us, to
come down and condescend to be

1158
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:34,480
with us, in order to know how to
help us draw near unto Him and

1159
01:11:34,480 --> 01:11:39,600
the Father, how to rend our veil
of of unbelief so.

1160
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:43,320
So let me ask you this then,
because because I want to, I

1161
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,560
want to sit here and I want to
look at, at the, the

1162
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:48,400
covenantial, the the
transactional model versus the

1163
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:50,480
compassionate model.
Yeah.

1164
01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:54,560
As I've been thinking about it
here, why is it not both?

1165
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:57,840
Shouldn't it be both?
Because Christ obviously sets

1166
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,000
terms.
Yeah.

1167
01:12:00,480 --> 01:12:04,040
With with the atonement, right?
I mean, look, I'm, you're going

1168
01:12:04,040 --> 01:12:09,760
to be forgiven of your sins, but
the, the, the, the price of that

1169
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:11,960
is the price of discipleship
now, right?

1170
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:14,000
You're, you're going to follow
me, you're going to take up your

1171
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:15,800
cross, right?
Yeah.

1172
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,360
And And so on some level it's
still transactional, isn't it?

1173
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:24,360
Yes, so, and this is waiting in
deeper waters, but yeah, let's

1174
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:28,440
let's talk about this.
Transactions are an essential

1175
01:12:28,440 --> 01:12:31,040
part of any and all
relationships, even

1176
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,840
interpersonal relationships.
So when I talk about

1177
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:37,560
transactional versus
interpersonal, I'm talking about

1178
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:40,160
how you view and approach the
relationship.

1179
01:12:41,000 --> 01:12:45,280
Transactions are just so, so for
somebody who engages in

1180
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:49,120
transactional relationships,
everybody is a means to an end

1181
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:51,280
for them.
They're always looking for the

1182
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:55,440
transit.
And, and the sad fact is most of

1183
01:12:55,440 --> 01:12:59,360
us on this earth approach most
relationships transactionally

1184
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:02,600
most of the time.
So that's just a sad fact.

1185
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:06,760
And it takes true part of
repentance is really looking

1186
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:08,840
inward of being honest with
yourself about that.

1187
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:10,080
We're going to get into that
later.

1188
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:13,720
But yes, there is transaction.
What you're talking about is

1189
01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:17,240
covenant faithfulness.
And this is this gets into the

1190
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:21,320
whole debate in the New
Testament between Mormons and

1191
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:24,160
Christians too, about faith
versus works.

1192
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:32,240
The faith is what justifies you
or or no, sorry, grace is what

1193
01:13:32,240 --> 01:13:35,280
justifies you.
Justification is a is a gift of

1194
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:40,320
grace.
But in the Hebraic view, after

1195
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,840
that you're expected to be
faithful to the terms of the

1196
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:46,120
covenant or and it's not that
it's a transaction, because if

1197
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:49,440
you are accepted into covenant
relationship as a gift of grace

1198
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:53,200
and then you fail to be faithful
to the terms of the covenant,

1199
01:13:53,480 --> 01:13:57,160
you are actually rejecting the
interpersonal relationship.

1200
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:02,680
So it's not that God requires
the transactions, it's that it

1201
01:14:02,720 --> 01:14:07,800
by rejecting sort of the the
faithfulness you, you are

1202
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:09,520
rejecting the interpersonal
covenant.

1203
01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:11,840
You know what I mean?
I don't know if I muddied the

1204
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,080
waters even more or if I have
anything to.

1205
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:15,400
Go on.
I, I don't think so.

1206
01:14:15,480 --> 01:14:17,800
I, I think I see what you're,
what you're saying there a

1207
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:22,880
little bit.
I, I guess, I guess as I look at

1208
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:28,040
it, it seems to be very clear,
right, That, that because it

1209
01:14:28,040 --> 01:14:31,560
also seems to be that that
covenant that that transactional

1210
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:36,400
nature goes up the higher you go
in your covenant making, right.

1211
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:42,920
If if you screw up as, as
somebody who's just learning

1212
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:46,320
about the gospel, well, it's
bad, but it's not as bad as if

1213
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:50,120
you screw up after you've been
baptized and it's not as bad.

1214
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:54,160
You know, that's not as bad as
if you screw up on your temple

1215
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:57,080
covenants, right?
And so there does seem to be a

1216
01:14:57,080 --> 01:15:01,320
level of transactionality that
is happening here because the,

1217
01:15:01,360 --> 01:15:05,400
the, the promises you do XY and
ZI do this.

1218
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:09,600
Now, I do agree with you that at
some point you have to dig

1219
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:11,840
deeper, right?
And oftentimes I've pointed back

1220
01:15:11,840 --> 01:15:15,200
to Christ in the garden when you
start talking about the will.

1221
01:15:16,080 --> 01:15:19,640
And often I've used thought of
covenants as a way of making you

1222
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:24,600
reach higher and deeper within
yourself to present that to God.

1223
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:28,080
Well, I love what you said.
I'm filling the spirit right

1224
01:15:28,080 --> 01:15:31,760
now.
I have an answer to your you're

1225
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:36,600
wondering, if you will, what
happens when you you?

1226
01:15:36,760 --> 01:15:39,920
There is, like I said, there is
always a transactional element

1227
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:43,760
to relationships.
I am positing and I think all

1228
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:48,200
scripture is on my side, but
that that the transaction is not

1229
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:50,520
the is not how to approach the
relationship.

1230
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:58,440
So I guess what I would say is
when you do break a covenant,

1231
01:15:58,440 --> 01:16:01,800
when you don't keep your end of
the bargain, so to speak, why is

1232
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,640
that such a problem?
It's because you harmed the

1233
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:08,600
relationship and and breaking
covenants and commandments

1234
01:16:08,640 --> 01:16:12,280
always harms other people or
your relationship with God.

1235
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,560
So it's the relationship is
still the focal point.

1236
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:17,080
But I'm glad you brought that
up.

1237
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:19,160
You know what I mean.
Yep, Yep.

1238
01:16:19,200 --> 01:16:20,160
Nope.
That makes sense.

1239
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:24,320
Yeah, I'm glad though, That's
that's good.

1240
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:27,240
Good for me to think deep and
make sure I'm not just.

1241
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:32,200
So you said one other thing that
that had me that that I thought

1242
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:39,640
of and that was something about,
you know, the what was it you

1243
01:16:39,640 --> 01:16:41,600
said about Grace here a few
seconds ago?

1244
01:16:42,240 --> 01:16:44,680
Yeah.
So there's the there's the

1245
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:48,680
traditional Christian view that
there grace versus works.

1246
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:51,720
Works are bad, it's all grace.
But then there's the Hebraic

1247
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:56,640
view, the original Israelite and
2nd Temple Jew view, and Mormon

1248
01:16:56,640 --> 01:17:03,480
view that there's a grace is
what justifies us.

1249
01:17:03,480 --> 01:17:05,440
It's it's how we're accepted
into covenant.

1250
01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:09,120
But then faithful works are how
we maintain the covenant

1251
01:17:09,120 --> 01:17:12,000
relationship.
But the reason why faithful

1252
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:15,840
works maintain covenant
relationship is not because it's

1253
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:21,560
a it's purely A transaction, but
it's because doing otherwise

1254
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:24,800
harms relationships, like not
keeping the commandments.

1255
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:29,560
The commandments are all built
around helping us develop

1256
01:17:29,560 --> 01:17:31,640
perfect love for one another and
with God.

1257
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:34,840
So it's not that.
Well, you're not doing the work,

1258
01:17:34,840 --> 01:17:36,560
so you're not keeping your end
of the bargain.

1259
01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:38,640
It's not as simple as that.
It's because it harms the

1260
01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:41,120
relationship.
Did that jog your memory?

1261
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:44,440
Yep, I think so.
Go ahead and move on.

1262
01:17:44,440 --> 01:17:46,560
If it comes to me later, we may
backtrack a bit.

1263
01:17:47,160 --> 01:17:50,440
OK, to some, if anybody's
thinking, I have a Protestant or

1264
01:17:50,440 --> 01:17:53,120
Catholic view on grace and
works, I absolutely do not.

1265
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:57,720
I, I, I wholeheartedly accept
the Israelite and Mormon view on

1266
01:17:57,720 --> 01:17:59,840
grace and work.
So I hope that's, we're actually

1267
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:02,040
going to get into that.
That's key to the doctrine of

1268
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:04,760
yeah, that's, that's key to the
doctrine of Christ.

1269
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:16,640
So let's see.
I just want to say, I guess I'll

1270
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:19,880
read, I don't know if I read
Third Nephi 2714 through 15, so

1271
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:22,880
I'll just read it.
And my Father sent me that I

1272
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:24,640
might be lifted up upon the
cross.

1273
01:18:25,000 --> 01:18:28,160
And after that I'd, I'd been
lifted up upon the cross, that I

1274
01:18:28,160 --> 01:18:32,480
might draw all men near unto me,
That as I've been lifted up by

1275
01:18:32,480 --> 01:18:36,360
men, Even so should men be
lifted up by the Father to stand

1276
01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:40,120
before me, to be judged of their
works, whether they be good or

1277
01:18:40,120 --> 01:18:43,520
whether they be evil.
And for this, 'cause I've been

1278
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:47,000
lifted up, therefore according
to the power of the Father, I

1279
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:50,360
will draw all men unto me, that
they may be judged according to

1280
01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:52,520
their works.
So I just want to say I do not

1281
01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:59,320
believe in teddy bear Jesus, but
I do want to get across that

1282
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:03,080
interpersonal relationship and
compassion are at the heart of

1283
01:19:03,080 --> 01:19:07,320
everything.
Yes, yes, when we transgress,

1284
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:11,320
there is pain involved and
justice, you know, justice must

1285
01:19:11,320 --> 01:19:15,520
be paid, but it's it's not
because somebody has to be

1286
01:19:15,520 --> 01:19:18,000
punished or it's not this
transactional thing.

1287
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:26,640
So at one mint is made possible
by the atonement of Christ and

1288
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:31,920
his life and atonement gave us
the experience he needed to help

1289
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:35,320
us to send back to the father.
Those last four passages I read

1290
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:39,640
like pretty much literally say
that they they they they feel

1291
01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:42,480
they allow his bowels to be
filled with compassion, to be

1292
01:19:42,480 --> 01:19:46,520
with Kum Passi.
And according to the scriptures

1293
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:50,080
of the restoration, as I just
read, his mortal journey moves

1294
01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:53,360
his bows with compassion.
He experienced all the woes of

1295
01:19:53,360 --> 01:19:59,520
mortality in their extreme,
unlike, well, some of us maybe

1296
01:19:59,520 --> 01:20:03,440
do experience that, but he
definitely did to include, and

1297
01:20:03,440 --> 01:20:06,680
these are the woes of mortality,
the three big ones, pain,

1298
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:09,880
temptation, and most of all,
alienation.

1299
01:20:10,520 --> 01:20:13,600
Alienation is sort of the
antithesis of interpersonal

1300
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:16,760
unity.
So he experienced all of those

1301
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:21,080
in their fullness.
And his alienation was the

1302
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:24,880
absolute worst.
He left the most loving and

1303
01:20:24,880 --> 01:20:27,760
fulfilling relationship
possible, the everlasting

1304
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:31,680
covenant, to experience the
general alienation of being

1305
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:34,000
mortal.
Because we're veiled, right?

1306
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:35,640
We're veiled from the Father's
light.

1307
01:20:36,800 --> 01:20:39,360
We do have the light of we do
have a little bit of it, the

1308
01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:41,400
light of Christ.
But you know what I'm trying to

1309
01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:46,680
say?
And so he he left that

1310
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:49,680
relationship to experience
general alienation that humanity

1311
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:52,400
brings.
He emptied himself of the

1312
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:57,440
Godhead's shared glory when he
condescended into mortality, and

1313
01:20:57,440 --> 01:21:01,680
he eventually experienced the
total alienation of darkness or

1314
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:08,160
of outer darkness on the cross.
And Blake Osler says, imagine

1315
01:21:08,160 --> 01:21:10,640
the person in the whole history
of the world who is most

1316
01:21:10,640 --> 01:21:13,880
conscious of the presence of God
the Father with him throughout

1317
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:16,920
his entire mortal life.
And then when he's brought to

1318
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:20,440
the breaking point on the cross,
when he needs his father most,

1319
01:21:20,440 --> 01:21:23,760
he's not there for him.
He gives this excruciating cry

1320
01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:26,200
from the cross.
And it's so important that it's

1321
01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:28,680
preserved in the original
Aramaic that he spoke.

1322
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:34,600
Ali, Ali, la masa Bhaktani, my
God, my God, why has thou

1323
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:38,720
abounded me in this moment?
It's like he's so overwhelmed by

1324
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:41,400
the fact that God is not there
with him in his moment of

1325
01:21:41,400 --> 01:21:44,320
greatest need when his entire
life he has walked in the

1326
01:21:44,320 --> 01:21:47,680
closest relationship with God
that enter that any human being

1327
01:21:47,680 --> 01:21:51,360
ever had.
So he grew just to touch on

1328
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:53,880
that.
He did walk with God as close as

1329
01:21:53,880 --> 01:21:57,760
a human could be, but he still
had to grow grace for for grace

1330
01:21:57,760 --> 01:21:59,480
in that.
And he still experienced that

1331
01:21:59,480 --> 01:22:02,040
general alien nation, you know,
of mortality.

1332
01:22:02,520 --> 01:22:06,160
But obviously that should be
really moving to us what he was

1333
01:22:06,200 --> 01:22:09,640
going to do for us.
I almost choked up and I never

1334
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:10,440
do that.
So.

1335
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:17,920
So not only did he experience
total alienation or did he?

1336
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:21,200
Which is equivalent to falling
below all things.

1337
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:25,400
Not only did he experience the
hardest fall other than Adam you

1338
01:22:25,400 --> 01:22:29,560
could argue, but he also
experienced full at one mint in

1339
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:34,160
his mortal life.
He grew grace for grace until he

1340
01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:38,760
was transfigured on the mount.
And then, you know, during a

1341
01:22:38,760 --> 01:22:41,880
transfiguration you are
celestialized temporarily.

1342
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:44,760
You are in full unity with the
Father.

1343
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:49,400
Like think about Enoch or Moses
or Mahanray Mauryankimer, the

1344
01:22:49,400 --> 01:22:53,040
brother of Jared.
To be in the presence of God is

1345
01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:55,120
to be fully at one with him in
that moment.

1346
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:58,040
The only kind of people who are
in the presence of God,

1347
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:00,960
immortality are those who
already who have forged A

1348
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:04,960
celestial relationship with him.
So so Christ does re receive

1349
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:09,160
full at one mint in mortality
temporarily, but even more

1350
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:14,160
stirring, he also received full
at one mint with humanity and

1351
01:23:14,160 --> 01:23:19,080
Gethsemane when he experienced
all of our woes and travails and

1352
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:21,800
sins.
So he not only did he fall the

1353
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:25,320
farthest in life, but he he
became at one in mortality the

1354
01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:29,880
farthest.
So he, Christ is the archetypal

1355
01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:32,960
hero, archetypal hero in the
hero's journey.

1356
01:23:33,960 --> 01:23:38,160
I would argue he and Adam,
Christ lovingly descended from

1357
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:42,480
unity in the everlasting
covenant into the dark and

1358
01:23:42,480 --> 01:23:46,600
dreary waste, and then ascended
from this fall to at one mint in

1359
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:50,680
grace and perfection.
And his footsteps have paved the

1360
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:53,520
straight narrow path from the
dark and dreary waste to the

1361
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:56,200
tree of life.
So his life is sort of book

1362
01:23:56,200 --> 01:24:00,440
ended by fall and atonement.
He falls into immortality and

1363
01:24:00,440 --> 01:24:04,120
then he makes that one mint.
But within his life he also has

1364
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:08,080
fallen at one mint, fall on the
cross when God leaves him, but

1365
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:10,760
at that one mint before that on
the Mount of Transfiguration and

1366
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:14,840
in Gethsemane.
So he is just like the epitome

1367
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:17,320
of fall, creation, fall and at
one mint.

1368
01:24:19,240 --> 01:24:23,480
And this just shows that all
things do testify of Christ.

1369
01:24:23,840 --> 01:24:29,040
Every fractal pattern in nature,
we testify of Christ because we

1370
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:32,880
undergo the hero's journey too.
And me and you are like on three

1371
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:34,320
different hero's journeys at
once.

1372
01:24:34,320 --> 01:24:38,240
You know, like, like our whole
life is a hero's journey, this

1373
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:42,080
single, but so is the single
mom's trip to the store with

1374
01:24:42,080 --> 01:24:45,680
four screaming kids.
That is a hero's journey, but so

1375
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:51,440
is me and you coming home after
a hard day's work and being

1376
01:24:52,280 --> 01:24:55,360
brave enough to be present with
our wives and children.

1377
01:24:55,360 --> 01:24:59,760
You know, like, like this is a
fractal and multivalent process,

1378
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:02,880
the hero's journey.
And and This is why all things

1379
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:06,400
testify of Christ, because he's
the epitome of that pattern.

1380
01:25:06,880 --> 01:25:08,960
Absolutely.
Yeah.

1381
01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:11,640
So anything you want to say
because we're finally moving on

1382
01:25:11,640 --> 01:25:13,040
to the doctrine of Christ now
that we've.

1383
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:15,720
Covered Well, I don't think so.
I think that hero's journey is,

1384
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:18,920
is an important thing to pay
attention to and and look, I I

1385
01:25:18,920 --> 01:25:21,680
mentioned Campbell half jokingly
when we first started.

1386
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:24,080
This but.
Yeah, going back and watching

1387
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:27,040
that is not a bad thing.
I think it was an old PBS

1388
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:32,240
special from like the 80s that
that absolutely will paint a

1389
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:34,920
good picture of this because it
does show up right.

1390
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:39,360
I think it's a pattern that that
the Lord has instinctively or

1391
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:43,720
not instinctively but but
purposely given to man to to

1392
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:47,280
harken us back to the Savior's
journey and our own, quite

1393
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:50,000
frankly.
Yeah, I love that.

1394
01:25:50,240 --> 01:25:53,520
I thanks for that encouragement
to me, you know, go back and

1395
01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:55,760
watch that or.
Oh, you've never watched that?

1396
01:25:56,200 --> 01:25:57,480
No, no.
I.

1397
01:25:57,480 --> 01:26:00,440
Never.
Oh yeah, you got to go back.

1398
01:26:00,440 --> 01:26:06,200
It's fantastic.
OK, I might have you remind me

1399
01:26:06,200 --> 01:26:10,400
after our discussion.
So, OK, moving on to the

1400
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:14,640
doctrine of Christ, again, the
everlasting covenant and the

1401
01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:18,160
fallen at one mint, Doctrines of
fallen at one mint are the major

1402
01:26:18,160 --> 01:26:19,960
groundwork for the doctrine of
Christ.

1403
01:26:21,120 --> 01:26:22,800
But we're moving, so we're
moving into that.

1404
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:27,360
But first, let's discuss
apocalyptic literature and

1405
01:26:27,360 --> 01:26:31,440
temple liturgy, which is, in my
opinion, the the juicy stuff in

1406
01:26:31,440 --> 01:26:33,000
my.
Now you're getting to my.

1407
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:34,920
Now we're getting to my jam.
All right.

1408
01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:37,520
Yeah, dude, I'm I'm the same way
brother.

1409
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:40,000
It's it's.
Now we're getting to my jam.

1410
01:26:41,640 --> 01:26:46,520
OK well so please I I would love
any insight you have 'cause I'm

1411
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:47,800
sure you could teach me quite a
bit.

1412
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:49,720
Wow.
I don't know, dude.

1413
01:26:51,760 --> 01:26:54,680
Well, so the word apocalypse and
and.

1414
01:26:54,680 --> 01:26:57,640
People usually associate this
with end times, but that's not

1415
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:01,000
what it means.
The word apocalypse comes from

1416
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:06,200
the Greek apocalypsis and it
simply means yes, exactly.

1417
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:08,560
It means a revealing or an
unveiling.

1418
01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:11,040
And the reason why people
associate it with the end times

1419
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:15,840
is because John had a revelation
of the end times and so of other

1420
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:18,200
prophets.
But but the word just means

1421
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:19,600
revelation.
It doesn't have to be a

1422
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:23,360
revelation about the last days
or destruction.

1423
01:27:24,120 --> 01:27:30,240
So the apocalyptic texts of
ancient Israel often that they

1424
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:36,160
follow a usual pattern and not
every apocalyptic text contains

1425
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:39,600
every aspect of the pattern, but
they all contain parts of the

1426
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:43,680
pattern, if not the whole thing.
So the usual pattern is that a

1427
01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:48,240
prophet is taken on a three-part
journey through the heavens,

1428
01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:53,560
which culminates in a revelation
in a revelation of God known as

1429
01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:58,760
a throne theophany, during which
the prophet is admitted into

1430
01:27:58,760 --> 01:28:01,520
God's presence and also into the
divine council.

1431
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:05,160
Who are God's most trusted inner
circle, His noble and great

1432
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:08,480
ones, the ones who help him
carry out his plans for the

1433
01:28:08,480 --> 01:28:10,480
earth and for his wicked
covenant people.

1434
01:28:11,480 --> 01:28:14,440
So as I said this, this
revelation of God is called a

1435
01:28:14,440 --> 01:28:20,120
throne theophany and examples of
apocalyptic texts are found in

1436
01:28:20,120 --> 01:28:23,520
Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel.
Revelation.

1437
01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,120
First, Nephi, dude.
First Nephi is probably my

1438
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:27,720
favorite book of scripture hands
down.

1439
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:30,200
Second, Nephi is a close
contender, but.

1440
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:35,000
Also, so those are the two,
sorry, I'm going to go back to

1441
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:38,040
the LDS days, right.
It was often said that those are

1442
01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:41,800
the two most read books because
everyone starts out with a view

1443
01:28:41,800 --> 01:28:44,960
of reading the Book of Mormon
and they get through 1st and 2nd

1444
01:28:44,960 --> 01:28:48,320
Nephi and then just stop.
Well, it's, it's funny because I

1445
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:50,440
used to dread them because I've
read again.

1446
01:28:50,440 --> 01:28:54,800
I had started the Book of Mormon
100 times and I had read them

1447
01:28:54,800 --> 01:28:57,160
more than any other.
So I was tired of them and two

1448
01:28:57,520 --> 01:29:02,360
Isaiah chapters, right?
Well, come to find out when I

1449
01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:04,720
learned these ancient Hebraic
patterns that they are a

1450
01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:10,000
treasure trove of knowledge and
rich mystical experience.

1451
01:29:10,080 --> 01:29:15,560
And they, the 1st and 2nd Nephi
are as are the GOAT, as the kids

1452
01:29:15,560 --> 01:29:17,280
say, grace, greatest of all
time.

1453
01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:20,800
So yeah, I encourage everyone
to, to learn these patterns

1454
01:29:20,800 --> 01:29:24,560
we're discussing right now.
So I I mentioned some

1455
01:29:24,560 --> 01:29:28,200
apocalyptic texts in the
scriptural Canon, but there are

1456
01:29:28,200 --> 01:29:32,720
also some really amazing
apocalyptic texts outside the

1457
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:37,520
Canon in the Pseudepigrapha and
Apocrypha, such as the

1458
01:29:37,520 --> 01:29:41,800
Apocalypse of Adam, First,
Second and Third Enoch, the

1459
01:29:41,800 --> 01:29:44,280
Apocalypse of Abraham, the
Testament of Abraham, the

1460
01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:47,480
Testament of Levi, and the
Ascension of Isaiah.

1461
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:51,800
Now again, in each of these, the
prophet is taken on a three-part

1462
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:56,120
cosmic journey to the heavens to
see God, to be admitted into his

1463
01:29:56,120 --> 01:30:00,360
counsel, to receive a message or
prophecy for his people.

1464
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:08,160
And, and these three-part cosmic
journeys are specifically meant

1465
01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:12,240
to be mapped on to the three
spaces of the ancient temple,

1466
01:30:13,280 --> 01:30:17,160
right?
They, they often reference the

1467
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:21,880
architecture and furnishing of
the Tabernacle, even though

1468
01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:25,480
it's, even though what you're
envisioning is a prophet being

1469
01:30:25,480 --> 01:30:28,880
taken into space through the
heavens to see God.

1470
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:32,160
It, it will mention some of the
furnishing and layout of the

1471
01:30:32,160 --> 01:30:35,600
temple along the way.
And so it, it's the same ascent.

1472
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:39,160
You know, a prophet's three-part
journey through the heavens is

1473
01:30:39,160 --> 01:30:43,400
synonymous within initiates 3
part journey through the temple.

1474
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:47,280
The only difference is the
prophet's apocalyptic ascent is

1475
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:50,280
like the real deal and the thing
we want, whereas the temple is

1476
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:53,640
the teaching tool to obtain that
and and obviously bestow

1477
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:55,320
authority and that kind of
thing.

1478
01:30:57,480 --> 01:31:01,640
So in this way, because there is
a relation between apocalyptic

1479
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:08,960
text and temple temple journeys,
many apocalyptic texts are also

1480
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:11,400
liturgical texts.
Right.

1481
01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:18,560
Liturgical texts?
Are they outline or explain

1482
01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:21,760
ritual processes?
Temple.

1483
01:31:21,760 --> 01:31:24,960
And you know and you know that
this and you know how how

1484
01:31:24,960 --> 01:31:27,840
amazing the scriptures become
when you when you learn how to

1485
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:31,280
find these patterns.
But temple liturgy is

1486
01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:34,720
intentionally hidden all
throughout the scriptures.

1487
01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:41,040
Placing narratives or stories
within a liturgical framework is

1488
01:31:41,040 --> 01:31:44,600
an ancient literary technique
used by prophets and scribes.

1489
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:50,440
And learning to identify liturgy
in Scripture is fascinating,

1490
01:31:51,080 --> 01:31:55,280
edifying, and truly part of
understanding the Hebrew

1491
01:31:55,280 --> 01:31:57,320
Scriptures.
So were you going to say

1492
01:31:57,320 --> 01:32:00,320
something?
You know, there, yeah, there is

1493
01:32:00,640 --> 01:32:03,800
a school of thought right now
and it's floated around for a

1494
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:06,400
while, and it's one that I don't
agree with it all.

1495
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:11,000
And this is an idea when it
comes to temple work that what's

1496
01:32:11,000 --> 01:32:17,360
most important is that you
receive not just the covenant,

1497
01:32:17,360 --> 01:32:21,320
but but the associated tokens
that go along with it, right?

1498
01:32:21,320 --> 01:32:22,480
And that's really.
What you need?

1499
01:32:23,640 --> 01:32:27,520
I don't agree with that and I'm
going to tell you, I'm going to

1500
01:32:27,520 --> 01:32:32,520
tell you why I don't agree with
that, that that idea, because

1501
01:32:33,480 --> 01:32:37,800
what is it that we're told in
addition to the atonement?

1502
01:32:38,360 --> 01:32:40,440
The atonement is what saves us,
right?

1503
01:32:40,440 --> 01:32:45,000
It's it's salvatic in nature.
The atonement allows us to come

1504
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:48,400
forward in the resurrection.
It allows us to have that bridge

1505
01:32:48,400 --> 01:32:54,240
back if we so choose to take it.
In Mormonism, it goes a step

1506
01:32:54,240 --> 01:32:57,400
further with this idea of
exaltation, right?

1507
01:32:57,760 --> 01:33:04,080
And Joseph is very clear that
the key to to becoming exalted

1508
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:07,840
is you first need the atonement,
and then you need sacred

1509
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:12,680
knowledge on top of that, right?
You can only be saved sofa as as

1510
01:33:12,680 --> 01:33:14,480
fast as you can gain knowledge,
right?

1511
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:18,080
The only thing you take with you
to the other side is your.

1512
01:33:18,120 --> 01:33:20,560
Is the knowledge right?
Yes.

1513
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:23,440
In addition, with your family
relationships and that and and

1514
01:33:23,440 --> 01:33:31,320
that and so in my opinion, if we
read Brigham Young right,

1515
01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:35,800
Brigham has that great quote
where he says you know by taking

1516
01:33:35,800 --> 01:33:38,320
your endowment has to receive
all those ordinances in the

1517
01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:41,200
House of Lord that will enable
you to walk back to the presence

1518
01:33:41,200 --> 01:33:46,160
of the Father.
Giving the the the appropriate

1519
01:33:46,440 --> 01:33:49,560
keywords, signs and tokens, blah
blah, blah.

1520
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:52,880
That will allow you to pass the
angels that stand as Sentinels.

1521
01:33:54,240 --> 01:33:58,400
All those tokens are there for
is a way of representing that

1522
01:33:58,400 --> 01:34:04,400
you've had that liturgical
sacred knowledge passed to you.

1523
01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:09,000
It's an identifying marker.
And So what is it?

1524
01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:13,680
That is truly the important
thing that we are gaining in the

1525
01:34:13,680 --> 01:34:16,200
temple.
Well, it's the covenant and it's

1526
01:34:16,200 --> 01:34:21,440
the associated sacred knowledge
that allows us to give that

1527
01:34:21,440 --> 01:34:27,440
token, which is a symbol of that
liturgical or that sacred

1528
01:34:27,440 --> 01:34:29,240
knowledge.
It it shows that we have been

1529
01:34:29,240 --> 01:34:33,040
initiated.
I fully agree.

1530
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:38,320
And it's the, it's the physical
is very important.

1531
01:34:38,320 --> 01:34:39,840
We're here to bring heaven down
to earth.

1532
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:44,000
Embodiment is super important.
But I, I'd say maybe the most

1533
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:48,640
important thing about signs and
tokens is the inward patterns

1534
01:34:48,640 --> 01:34:50,320
they teach.
And I'm not, I'm not trying to

1535
01:34:50,320 --> 01:34:53,440
go Protestant on us 'cause I do
believe in the embodied life.

1536
01:34:53,440 --> 01:34:57,320
I think it's critical, but it's
it's the becoming that they

1537
01:34:57,320 --> 01:34:59,200
teach and we're going to get
into that too.

1538
01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:01,320
And I'm stoked because it's one
of my favorite topics.

1539
01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:04,400
Rituals are a fascination of
mine.

1540
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:07,400
And they're they are way more
precious than we give them

1541
01:35:07,400 --> 01:35:09,080
credit for.
So yeah, I'm glad.

1542
01:35:09,240 --> 01:35:10,640
I'm really glad you brought that
up.

1543
01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:15,200
Couldn't agree more with you.
And I, I, I love that quote by

1544
01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:18,120
Brigham Young.
Like I love the imagery, always

1545
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:24,880
have.
So like I said, some sacred

1546
01:35:24,880 --> 01:35:28,880
texts are entirely apocalyptic
or liturgical, while others

1547
01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:33,120
contain scattered elements of
liturgy and ascension.

1548
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:39,200
And and again, learning to
identify liturgy and apocalyptic

1549
01:35:39,440 --> 01:35:43,480
writings like the Book of Mormon
is completely transformed

1550
01:35:43,480 --> 01:35:45,480
because it is all over the Book
of Mormon.

1551
01:35:45,480 --> 01:35:49,440
I mean, the scriptures become
this you, you become excited to

1552
01:35:49,440 --> 01:35:52,680
read it every time, especially
if you understand the inward

1553
01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:56,120
implications and the inward
things that these texts are

1554
01:35:56,120 --> 01:35:58,960
teachings.
So I, I, I encourage people to,

1555
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:01,360
to look into that for
themselves.

1556
01:36:03,440 --> 01:36:05,200
So I'm going to share again if
that's OK.

1557
01:36:05,480 --> 01:36:07,640
Yeah, absolutely.
Cool, let's.

1558
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:17,480
See.
Hold on one SEC.

1559
01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:26,000
OK?
All right, Let me know when you

1560
01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:26,920
can see my screen.
You.

1561
01:36:27,440 --> 01:36:31,000
Can see it.
OK, so I'm just going to go over

1562
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:34,360
some really general examples of
apocalyptic ascents.

1563
01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:40,240
The first one you might see in
Scripture, like First Enoch

1564
01:36:40,240 --> 01:36:44,840
comes to mind is a profit
ascending from simply the 1st

1565
01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:47,720
heaven to the 2nd heaven, then
to the 3rd heaven.

1566
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:50,160
And what was it?
Was it Paul?

1567
01:36:50,360 --> 01:36:52,800
Enoch goes to all three.
Was it Paul who said I'd been

1568
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:55,560
caught up to the 3rd heaven or
he knew somebody who had?

1569
01:36:55,920 --> 01:36:58,680
Yes.
And, and I just want to say

1570
01:36:58,680 --> 01:37:01,440
Joseph has a statement where
Paul was caught up to to the

1571
01:37:01,440 --> 01:37:03,320
third, but I was caught up to
the 7th.

1572
01:37:04,520 --> 01:37:09,680
I, I'll, I'll totally take that
at face value.

1573
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:14,800
I do want to say the idea of
there being 7 heavens is a later

1574
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:22,360
innovation as as sort of ancient
times evolve into late antiquity

1575
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:27,160
they just keep adding heavens.
Like eventually there's like 99

1576
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:30,200
heavens but originally it was 3
heavens.

1577
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:33,200
And and in in the most ancient
texts, the texts of ancient

1578
01:37:33,200 --> 01:37:36,360
Israel, except for maybe the
ascension of Isaiah, there are

1579
01:37:36,360 --> 01:37:40,840
three heavens.
So another example, this is the

1580
01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:43,360
temple.
The temple was sent ascending

1581
01:37:43,360 --> 01:37:47,000
from the outer court to the Holy
Place, to the Holy of Holies.

1582
01:37:47,920 --> 01:37:53,800
Right.
Same journey essentially, and

1583
01:37:53,800 --> 01:37:55,440
here's ours.
Same exact thing.

1584
01:37:55,440 --> 01:37:58,920
Joseph was an inspired prophet
of God ascending from the

1585
01:37:58,920 --> 01:38:02,120
celestial to the terrestrial to
the celestial.

1586
01:38:02,960 --> 01:38:07,240
And the final, yes, exactly.
The final one I'm going to bring

1587
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:11,880
up is directly related to what
we're going to be getting into,

1588
01:38:12,320 --> 01:38:15,440
because we are pretty much ready
for the doctrine of Christ,

1589
01:38:15,920 --> 01:38:21,080
Lehigh's apocalyptic ascent from
the dark and dreary waste to the

1590
01:38:21,080 --> 01:38:23,840
straight, narrow path into the
tree of life.

1591
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:28,960
Got you.
So here's something else I want

1592
01:38:28,960 --> 01:38:31,200
to say about these three-part
journeys.

1593
01:38:31,880 --> 01:38:36,960
We talked about how our hero's
journey takes part or takes.

1594
01:38:37,360 --> 01:38:40,480
Well, the Lord works in fractal
patterns.

1595
01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:44,800
Not only is the hero's journey
A3.

1596
01:38:44,800 --> 01:38:48,240
Part Journey.
But the the apocalyptic

1597
01:38:48,320 --> 01:38:53,040
liturgical ascent is a
three-part journey within the

1598
01:38:53,040 --> 01:38:56,320
three-part hero's journey.
The apocalyptic ascent is the

1599
01:38:56,320 --> 01:38:59,240
journey from fall back to at one
mint.

1600
01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:03,280
So you have a three-part journey
within a three-part journey.

1601
01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:07,440
And that is reminiscent of our
modern, our, our latter day

1602
01:39:07,440 --> 01:39:10,040
temple layout.
You have the three degrees of

1603
01:39:10,040 --> 01:39:13,000
glory and then you have the
three degrees within the third

1604
01:39:13,000 --> 01:39:15,800
degree of glory.
And that's that's just how God

1605
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:21,920
works, OK?
So let's talk about the doctrine

1606
01:39:21,920 --> 01:39:27,120
of Christ.
And so, as I just explained,

1607
01:39:27,120 --> 01:39:28,240
Lehigh.
'S vision.

1608
01:39:28,960 --> 01:39:33,320
Is a great example of both an
apocalyptic and a liturgical

1609
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:38,680
text.
Now Lehigh's vision is

1610
01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:44,880
masterfully explained by Nephi
in Second Nephi 31 through 32.

1611
01:39:45,240 --> 01:39:50,320
So you have Lehigh's vision
transcribed in first Nephi 8 and

1612
01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:54,440
then by Second Nephi 31 through
32, Nephi is going back and

1613
01:39:54,440 --> 01:39:58,000
explaining what Lehi's vision
meant and explaining some of the

1614
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:01,400
elements of Lehi's vision.
And this is where we get the

1615
01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:05,000
doctrine of Christ.
So because the doctrine of

1616
01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:09,600
Christ is the doctrinal
explanation of Lehigh's

1617
01:40:09,600 --> 01:40:14,360
apocalyptic liturgical 3 part
ascent, it can also be the

1618
01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:17,800
doctrinal explanation for every
other three-part apocalyptic

1619
01:40:17,800 --> 01:40:19,800
ascent.
So if you're reading first

1620
01:40:19,800 --> 01:40:24,160
Enoch, think about the doctrine
of Christ as Enoch is ascending

1621
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:26,600
from the 1st to the 2nd to the
3rd heaven and so on.

1622
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:33,520
Which is pretty cool that that
this is that way, but so I'm.

1623
01:40:33,680 --> 01:40:35,520
I don't think I'm going to read.
The doctrine of Christ.

1624
01:40:35,520 --> 01:40:41,840
But I will say first Nephi 8 and
2nd Nephi 31 to 32 are some of

1625
01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:44,920
the single most important
chapters in all of Scripture.

1626
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:50,280
And I would also include
Christ's visit to the Nephites

1627
01:40:50,280 --> 01:40:53,280
in that as well.
But so first.

1628
01:40:54,760 --> 01:40:58,960
Oh, and one more thing.
I'm getting ahead of myself, so

1629
01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:01,560
I explained how apocalyptic
texts can be.

1630
01:41:01,560 --> 01:41:02,960
Mapped onto the.
Temple.

1631
01:41:03,160 --> 01:41:07,080
They're liturgical.
Well, because the doctrine of

1632
01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:12,240
Christ is an explanation of a
liturgical vision.

1633
01:41:13,400 --> 01:41:16,440
It is also directly applicable
to the temple.

1634
01:41:16,440 --> 01:41:19,040
And Nephi wants us to apply to
the temple.

1635
01:41:19,680 --> 01:41:22,680
He he wants us to map the
doctrine of Christ onto the

1636
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:27,160
three-part space of the temple,
just as he uses it, uses it to

1637
01:41:27,160 --> 01:41:28,800
explain his Father's three-part
vision.

1638
01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:34,600
So first, the first principle of
the doctrine of Christ is faith,

1639
01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:39,840
and in my opinion, faith.
Applies to the entrance.

1640
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:42,720
Of the ancient Tabernacle, the
entrance to the outer court,

1641
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:47,200
because the ancient Tabernacle
is composed of the outer court,

1642
01:41:47,200 --> 01:41:48,920
the Holy Place, and the Holy of
Holies.

1643
01:41:49,360 --> 01:41:53,840
So by even coming into the
entrance you are exercising

1644
01:41:53,840 --> 01:41:59,240
faith in God and His plan.
OK, the next step of the

1645
01:41:59,240 --> 01:42:01,520
doctrine.
Cool and and if you.

1646
01:42:01,520 --> 01:42:04,240
Want, if we want to just quickly
map this onto the endowment

1647
01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:10,880
faith, which is mapped onto the
entrance would be the law of

1648
01:42:10,880 --> 01:42:13,920
obedience would also be mapped
onto the entrance because we're,

1649
01:42:14,200 --> 01:42:17,280
we're committing to obey
whatever he asks us to do.

1650
01:42:17,280 --> 01:42:21,640
We're we're setting foot on the
journey he wants us to set foot

1651
01:42:21,640 --> 01:42:26,040
on, so to speak.
OK, the next element of the

1652
01:42:26,040 --> 01:42:30,720
doctrine of Christ, repentance.
Remember, the doctrine of Christ

1653
01:42:30,720 --> 01:42:33,000
is faith, repentance.
Baptism, the gift of the Holy.

1654
01:42:33,000 --> 01:42:37,800
Ghost and endure to the end.
So repentance directly maps on

1655
01:42:37,800 --> 01:42:40,160
to the very first structure in
the outer court.

1656
01:42:40,440 --> 01:42:45,320
You go from the entrance to the
altar of sacrifice, and the

1657
01:42:45,320 --> 01:42:49,400
reason repentance maps on to the
altar of sacrifice is because

1658
01:42:49,680 --> 01:42:53,960
the definition of repentance in
Scripture is to lay yourself or

1659
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:57,880
your heart on the altar.
Is that tracking?

1660
01:42:58,520 --> 01:43:00,960
Yep, that tracks.
OK.

1661
01:43:01,400 --> 01:43:03,360
And.
What also maps?

1662
01:43:03,360 --> 01:43:07,520
On to the altar.
The law of sacrifice in the

1663
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:11,120
endowment.
It's an altar law of sacrifice,

1664
01:43:11,880 --> 01:43:14,040
so third element of the doctrine
of Christ.

1665
01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:16,560
We've done faith and repentance
and we've done the law of

1666
01:43:16,560 --> 01:43:18,080
obedience to the law of
sacrifice.

1667
01:43:18,400 --> 01:43:24,360
Now it's baptism.
Baptism maps to the to the next

1668
01:43:24,360 --> 01:43:28,800
structure after the altar of
Sacrifice, which is the Laver

1669
01:43:29,040 --> 01:43:33,640
where the priests would be
washed so.

1670
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:39,480
And also.
Oh, I guess next next is the

1671
01:43:39,480 --> 01:43:40,440
holy.
Ghost.

1672
01:43:42,000 --> 01:43:45,800
Now I have.
The Holy Ghost mapped on.

1673
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:47,600
To the.
Clothing and anointing.

1674
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:51,160
Which takes place after the
labor, but before the holy

1675
01:43:51,160 --> 01:43:52,440
place.
And here's why.

1676
01:43:53,080 --> 01:43:55,320
And I I think this is clearly
deliberate.

1677
01:43:56,240 --> 01:44:01,560
In the most ancient texts you
have the robes or the the

1678
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:06,040
clothes which are usually
depicted as the garment or the

1679
01:44:06,040 --> 01:44:08,280
coat of skins or the garment of
light.

1680
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:13,160
In all the ancient texts, the
coat of skins and or garment of

1681
01:44:13,160 --> 01:44:20,640
light represents the literal
spirit of the Creator God, also

1682
01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:23,560
the Holy anointing.
Oil clear that.

1683
01:44:23,640 --> 01:44:28,560
Literally in scripture, several
times the anointing oil is

1684
01:44:28,560 --> 01:44:33,560
directly equated with the Spirit
of God, so as faith maps up the

1685
01:44:33,560 --> 01:44:35,720
entrance.
Repentance maps onto the.

1686
01:44:35,720 --> 01:44:37,800
Altar baptism maps onto the
labor.

1687
01:44:38,320 --> 01:44:42,120
The Holy Ghost clearly maps on
the the clothing and anointing

1688
01:44:42,520 --> 01:44:44,760
that takes place just before the
Holy Place.

1689
01:44:45,760 --> 01:44:48,320
And did we skip the law?
Did we skip the Law of the

1690
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:51,040
Gospel?
No, the law of the Gospel is

1691
01:44:51,040 --> 01:44:55,240
summed up by the Laver and also
the clothing and anointing.

1692
01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:59,240
Because it is the law of the
Gospel to be.

1693
01:44:59,240 --> 01:45:03,000
Baptized.
To receive the Spirit of God and

1694
01:45:03,000 --> 01:45:06,000
to yield to that spirit in all
things which will, which will

1695
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:11,360
automatically lead to keeping
the 2 great commandments, loving

1696
01:45:11,360 --> 01:45:15,440
God and loving your neighbor.
So it's kind of similar to the

1697
01:45:15,440 --> 01:45:20,560
surrendering of the will, right?
Yes, 100% to put that.

1698
01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:23,880
Will on the altar, just like
Christ had to.

1699
01:45:23,880 --> 01:45:27,920
Do in the garden, right?
You know, not my will.

1700
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:32,200
I'll be done.
So it's it's the surrendering of

1701
01:45:32,200 --> 01:45:34,280
the will.
Yeah.

1702
01:45:34,280 --> 01:45:37,160
And and that that like sounds
like.

1703
01:45:37,320 --> 01:45:39,640
Repentance to me, which is
mapped onto the altar.

1704
01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:43,720
But the thing about that is you
have to be repentant to move on

1705
01:45:43,720 --> 01:45:46,720
to the next step to even receive
to actually receive the Holy

1706
01:45:46,720 --> 01:45:48,040
Ghost.
I'm not talking about the

1707
01:45:48,040 --> 01:45:50,160
ordinance of the gift of the
Holy Ghost.

1708
01:45:50,360 --> 01:45:54,400
I'm talking about actually
receiving the Holy Ghost at

1709
01:45:54,400 --> 01:45:57,880
right now.
And yes, the ordinance is.

1710
01:45:57,880 --> 01:46:01,680
Clearly critical.
But to actually receive the Holy

1711
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:05,160
Ghost, yeah, you do need to have
already made that sacrifice.

1712
01:46:06,280 --> 01:46:11,920
So again, again, faith maps on
to the entrance, sacrifice maps

1713
01:46:11,920 --> 01:46:15,520
on to the altar or or repentance
maps on to the altar, Baptism

1714
01:46:15,520 --> 01:46:18,840
maps on to the Laver, and the
Holy Ghost clearly maps on to

1715
01:46:18,840 --> 01:46:21,160
clothe leading and anointing,
which both traditionally

1716
01:46:21,160 --> 01:46:23,360
represented the spirit of the
creator God.

1717
01:46:25,720 --> 01:46:27,480
And then you have the first
three laws.

1718
01:46:27,480 --> 01:46:31,560
Of the temple here too.
And the next step is to endure

1719
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:33,440
to the end.
This is when you.

1720
01:46:33,480 --> 01:46:37,440
Enter the Holy Place after you
have exercised faith and the

1721
01:46:37,440 --> 01:46:40,400
true repentance, have been
baptized by proper authority,

1722
01:46:40,640 --> 01:46:43,200
and have truly received the
Spirit of the Creator.

1723
01:46:43,720 --> 01:46:45,920
The next step is to endure to
the end.

1724
01:46:46,760 --> 01:46:50,920
And you know, we could go into
the table of showbread and the

1725
01:46:50,920 --> 01:46:53,880
menorah in the holy place
because now you're in the holy

1726
01:46:53,880 --> 01:46:58,240
place now that you've done all
these preliminary steps and the

1727
01:46:58,240 --> 01:47:03,120
table of showbread and menorah.
Justin Frankham again makes a

1728
01:47:03,120 --> 01:47:06,560
really good case for those being
able to represent consecration

1729
01:47:06,560 --> 01:47:08,960
and chastity.
So that's where they're that's

1730
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:11,960
where those next two laws would
come into play during the

1731
01:47:11,960 --> 01:47:16,640
enduring to the end part of the
process which leads to the holy,

1732
01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:20,920
the Holy of Holies, the Tree of
life, the Ark of the Covenant or

1733
01:47:20,920 --> 01:47:26,000
the everlasting Covenant, right.
So for those who weren't

1734
01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:28,720
listening, I hope you can watch
these slides at some point

1735
01:47:29,280 --> 01:47:33,640
because I've shown how the
doctrine of Christ and our

1736
01:47:33,640 --> 01:47:38,320
modern LDS temple map on are
meant to map on to the ancient

1737
01:47:38,320 --> 01:47:42,880
temple.
All right, I think.

1738
01:47:42,880 --> 01:47:45,840
That's all I got for slides.
One SEC.

1739
01:47:51,400 --> 01:47:55,080
So now.
Comes the question.

1740
01:47:55,080 --> 01:47:58,640
Like, we've seen the map, we've
we've geeked out over the

1741
01:47:58,640 --> 01:48:01,200
apocalyptic texts and the
liturgy and all that.

1742
01:48:01,600 --> 01:48:06,360
Now it's like like we got to we
got to discuss how the rubber

1743
01:48:06,360 --> 01:48:09,200
meets the road.
How do we actually do this?

1744
01:48:09,760 --> 01:48:12,880
And this whole it's all academic
up to this point.

1745
01:48:13,480 --> 01:48:14,880
Exactly.
And and it's.

1746
01:48:14,960 --> 01:48:17,000
I love it, the spirit is there,
but yes.

1747
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:21,320
It's all academic now.
We got to talk about the actual

1748
01:48:21,320 --> 01:48:23,560
becoming, not just looking at
the map.

1749
01:48:25,600 --> 01:48:27,640
So the thing about this whole
process.

1750
01:48:27,640 --> 01:48:31,760
Is that?
The 1st 2:00 points of the

1751
01:48:31,760 --> 01:48:35,120
doctrine of Christ are the thing
that keep this thing going and

1752
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:38,320
repeating the whole time.
Faith and repentance.

1753
01:48:39,200 --> 01:48:43,960
If you are living in a state of
being that is faith and

1754
01:48:43,960 --> 01:48:45,400
repentance.
Cause faith and repentance

1755
01:48:45,400 --> 01:48:49,480
aren't just things we do, it is
a state of being we exist in.

1756
01:48:50,240 --> 01:48:54,040
If you were living in that state
of being you are in perpetual

1757
01:48:54,040 --> 01:48:57,040
motion.
You were constantly undergoing

1758
01:48:57,040 --> 01:49:00,400
creation, fall, atonement,
constantly participating in that

1759
01:49:00,400 --> 01:49:02,640
three-part ascent from fall to
atonement.

1760
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:07,040
It is it is the thing that leads
you to exaltation, faith and

1761
01:49:07,040 --> 01:49:09,400
repentance.
They are the engine faith in

1762
01:49:09,440 --> 01:49:11,520
Jesus Christ and true
repentance.

1763
01:49:12,200 --> 01:49:15,640
And the problem with these is
that we don't understand them

1764
01:49:16,520 --> 01:49:22,120
because we don't study maybe the
ancient understanding of these

1765
01:49:22,120 --> 01:49:26,760
things and we also kind of fall
back in our traditions.

1766
01:49:27,640 --> 01:49:30,800
So let's talk, let's talk about
faith real quick.

1767
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:36,520
So the Hebrew word for faith is
emuna.

1768
01:49:36,600 --> 01:49:38,680
That's actually where the word
Amen comes from.

1769
01:49:39,680 --> 01:49:42,120
Amen means like I agree or I
support this.

1770
01:49:42,480 --> 01:49:46,640
Well, the Hebrew word emuna,
faith, it means to support or

1771
01:49:46,640 --> 01:49:50,440
trust.
And when I say support, Hebrew

1772
01:49:50,440 --> 01:49:54,840
is a very concrete language.
It is, it is completely rooted

1773
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:59,080
in the physical embodied world.
Whereas our English is very

1774
01:49:59,080 --> 01:50:02,120
abstract.
So when when I say that the

1775
01:50:02,120 --> 01:50:05,840
Hebrew word for faith in muna
means support, like literally,

1776
01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:10,680
it means like a support holding
a building up, like literally a

1777
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:15,360
pillar, right?
Structurally sound structurally.

1778
01:50:15,360 --> 01:50:19,800
Sound like completely reliable.
Trustworthy and willing to

1779
01:50:19,800 --> 01:50:22,560
trust.
This is the faith we need in God

1780
01:50:22,560 --> 01:50:26,400
to even embark on the journey.
We need to be able to trust Him

1781
01:50:26,720 --> 01:50:29,880
and be trusted by him.
We need to support Him and be

1782
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:34,280
supported by Him.
So faith is the first critical

1783
01:50:34,280 --> 01:50:36,280
step.
Faith.

1784
01:50:36,480 --> 01:50:39,400
Automatically true faith.
Automatically.

1785
01:50:39,400 --> 01:50:45,040
Leads to true repentance and
this is like hold on one second

1786
01:50:45,160 --> 01:50:48,480
because.
That's one of those things that

1787
01:50:48,480 --> 01:50:52,720
I feel like if it's going to be
employed, we have to, we have to

1788
01:50:52,720 --> 01:50:56,240
dive into that.
When you say true faith, explain

1789
01:50:56,240 --> 01:50:58,760
to me what the mark is of true
faith.

1790
01:50:59,520 --> 01:51:01,120
Yeah.
And this Mormons will like to

1791
01:51:01,120 --> 01:51:04,640
hear this, but it's we can go.
Deeper than we usually go as

1792
01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:07,600
Mormons, we just argue with
Protestants over what faith is.

1793
01:51:07,600 --> 01:51:11,360
But but there's some beauty here
in the ancient Hebrew and in the

1794
01:51:11,360 --> 01:51:16,480
Mormon restoration of that
ancient thought, true faith is

1795
01:51:16,480 --> 01:51:22,080
necessarily embodied like of
necessity, literally the Hebrew

1796
01:51:22,080 --> 01:51:28,600
word for faith in muna means to
support, to hold up when when I

1797
01:51:28,600 --> 01:51:32,040
forgot who was holding up Moses
arms during the battle with the

1798
01:51:32,040 --> 01:51:34,560
Israelites.
The word is a muna.

1799
01:51:35,480 --> 01:51:38,640
Well, the word is a muna faith.
They were literally.

1800
01:51:38,640 --> 01:51:42,600
Holding up his.
Arms true faith is embodied, it

1801
01:51:42,600 --> 01:51:44,800
is active.
The entire Hebrew language is

1802
01:51:44,800 --> 01:51:48,240
active, not passive and not
abstract.

1803
01:51:48,920 --> 01:51:54,760
So faith without faithfulness is
non existent When when James

1804
01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:56,840
says that?
When James the brother of Jesus

1805
01:51:56,840 --> 01:51:59,280
says faith without works is
dead.

1806
01:51:59,600 --> 01:52:02,960
Like that's an OK English
translation, but when he says

1807
01:52:02,960 --> 01:52:07,800
dead, he does not mean that.
Well, faith can exist without

1808
01:52:07,800 --> 01:52:10,520
works, but it's like this empty
husk of a thing.

1809
01:52:11,000 --> 01:52:14,040
He literally means faith is
illogical without works.

1810
01:52:14,040 --> 01:52:18,840
It is a logical contradiction.
Faith and faithfulness are

1811
01:52:18,840 --> 01:52:23,920
important, so.
So if you're going to have true

1812
01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:25,800
faith.
You were going to follow

1813
01:52:25,800 --> 01:52:30,960
through.
To maintain the covenant

1814
01:52:30,960 --> 01:52:34,000
relationship because, you know,
because it's what's best for the

1815
01:52:34,000 --> 01:52:37,080
covenant, it's what's best for
you, your fellow man and God.

1816
01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:40,960
To create the most harmony, the
most joy to accomplish God's

1817
01:52:40,960 --> 01:52:45,760
perfect plan.
Any questions or ideas?

1818
01:52:45,760 --> 01:52:48,360
Oh, so I guess if we were to
whittle this down, we could say

1819
01:52:48,360 --> 01:52:51,320
that that true.
Faith should motivate action.

1820
01:52:51,320 --> 01:52:53,040
It should be.
It should be tangible.

1821
01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:55,360
You should see it.
It's not.

1822
01:52:55,880 --> 01:52:58,640
It's not just an ethereal.
Belief.

1823
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:03,200
Somewhere it's it's a it's a
motivating factor that leads us

1824
01:53:03,200 --> 01:53:06,800
to do things.
It it literally it can't exist

1825
01:53:06,800 --> 01:53:09,880
the the idea.
Of faith being, intellectual,

1826
01:53:09,880 --> 01:53:13,400
ascent, meaning, I confess Jesus
is my Lord.

1827
01:53:14,240 --> 01:53:20,600
That is like it has no
foundation on the actual ancient

1828
01:53:20,600 --> 01:53:23,200
meaning and understanding and
teaching of that word.

1829
01:53:24,920 --> 01:53:28,760
From the beginning, faith was
active again, faith.

1830
01:53:29,440 --> 01:53:33,840
Faith is faithfulness.
It it's illogical to say

1831
01:53:33,840 --> 01:53:36,840
otherwise.
So cool.

1832
01:53:36,840 --> 01:53:38,800
I'm glad we glad we hammered
that one home.

1833
01:53:40,600 --> 01:53:43,280
And the entire Hebrew language
is active and concrete, like I

1834
01:53:43,280 --> 01:53:45,800
said.
So what do you expect repentance

1835
01:53:45,800 --> 01:53:47,560
is going to be?
It's going to be similar.

1836
01:53:48,080 --> 01:53:53,240
The Hebrew word for repentance
is shove or in in more modern

1837
01:53:53,240 --> 01:53:57,280
Hebrew teshuva.
But in the Bible it's shove and

1838
01:53:57,680 --> 01:54:02,120
repentance literally means to
turn or return.

1839
01:54:03,240 --> 01:54:09,720
So interestingly the word for
righteousness, sedek, means to

1840
01:54:09,720 --> 01:54:13,560
walk along, walk on the path.
The literal meaning of the word

1841
01:54:14,120 --> 01:54:19,600
well shove repentance is to turn
back and walk the right way on

1842
01:54:19,600 --> 01:54:20,840
that path.
It's to be righteous.

1843
01:54:20,840 --> 01:54:23,440
You know.
When, when you when you are

1844
01:54:23,440 --> 01:54:27,480
repenting, when you are engaging
in shove, you are turning to God

1845
01:54:27,880 --> 01:54:32,880
and turning to your fellow man.
You can't have a broken heart

1846
01:54:32,880 --> 01:54:35,400
for God but have a hard heart
for your fellow man.

1847
01:54:35,440 --> 01:54:37,000
That doesn't even make any
sense.

1848
01:54:37,440 --> 01:54:40,600
This, this is a complete
reorientation of how your heart

1849
01:54:40,600 --> 01:54:44,120
works.
And this right here of our, out

1850
01:54:44,120 --> 01:54:48,040
of our whole discussion,
repentance is like the, the

1851
01:54:48,080 --> 01:54:51,400
utter part of this entire issue
of everything we've discussed.

1852
01:54:51,640 --> 01:54:54,480
Repentance is kind of like the
focal point of this whole thing.

1853
01:54:55,240 --> 01:54:58,040
And like I said, it's, it's kind
of the thing that that keeps the

1854
01:54:58,040 --> 01:55:01,120
doctrine of Christ meaningful
and keeps it going in your life.

1855
01:55:01,960 --> 01:55:07,640
So repentance is described 4
main ways in the Scriptures.

1856
01:55:08,120 --> 01:55:10,320
And I have several scriptures
cited, but I'm not going to

1857
01:55:10,320 --> 01:55:12,640
read, you know, I don't need to
do that.

1858
01:55:14,280 --> 01:55:18,280
First, it's, it's defined as
laying oneself on the altar,

1859
01:55:18,320 --> 01:55:22,240
which we've sort of went over on
the doctrine of Christ map. 2nd,

1860
01:55:22,240 --> 01:55:25,160
it's to have a broken heart,
same thing.

1861
01:55:26,320 --> 01:55:29,120
Third, a soft or softened heart,
same thing.

1862
01:55:29,520 --> 01:55:32,800
And a circumcised heart, they
all mean the same thing.

1863
01:55:33,400 --> 01:55:35,080
And think about a circumcised
heart.

1864
01:55:35,560 --> 01:55:40,000
When you are circumcised, that
which is most vulnerable is

1865
01:55:40,000 --> 01:55:42,960
exposed.
That's exactly what repentance

1866
01:55:42,960 --> 01:55:46,760
is calling you to do, to become
completely vulnerable to God and

1867
01:55:46,760 --> 01:55:49,840
man.
Not like in the way of like

1868
01:55:49,840 --> 01:55:55,000
physical danger vulnerable, but
I mean completely open and

1869
01:55:55,000 --> 01:55:58,160
willing to reciprocate true
interpersonal I thou

1870
01:55:58,160 --> 01:56:01,200
relationship.
This is what true repentance is

1871
01:56:01,840 --> 01:56:04,920
and this is how it's defined in
the scriptures every time.

1872
01:56:05,360 --> 01:56:10,200
So here is the we utterly
misunderstand repentance and

1873
01:56:10,200 --> 01:56:13,440
that is exactly why Zion and the
Kingdom of God are not here yet.

1874
01:56:14,200 --> 01:56:17,720
Because in our mind, we do it
very transactionally, just like

1875
01:56:17,720 --> 01:56:21,080
we do most things.
It's well, I kind of made some

1876
01:56:21,080 --> 01:56:24,040
mistakes today.
I guess I'll go hit my knees and

1877
01:56:24,040 --> 01:56:25,720
go down the list of what I did
wrong.

1878
01:56:25,720 --> 01:56:28,560
And you know, that is not
repentance.

1879
01:56:28,560 --> 01:56:31,640
That is repentance is a state of
being.

1880
01:56:31,640 --> 01:56:34,480
It is to have your heart
oriented so that you're

1881
01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:38,800
completely willing to receive
and be received by God and man

1882
01:56:39,160 --> 01:56:45,040
and here's why most people I
don't I'm I venture.

1883
01:56:45,040 --> 01:56:46,560
To guess that most.
People have never.

1884
01:56:46,560 --> 01:56:48,000
Truly repented on this.
Earth.

1885
01:56:48,560 --> 01:56:50,680
It's because it's freaking
horrifying.

1886
01:56:51,480 --> 01:56:55,840
To become fully vulnerable to
another being is absolutely

1887
01:56:55,840 --> 01:56:58,840
terrifying.
And it's because, and here's

1888
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:03,560
why.
Because it hurts Because we've

1889
01:57:03,560 --> 01:57:06,720
all this happens, we, we grow up
with a soft heart when we're

1890
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:08,880
infants and toddlers, we have a
soft heart.

1891
01:57:09,160 --> 01:57:12,140
But what happens in mortality
and probably in the pre

1892
01:57:12,140 --> 01:57:16,200
existence, maybe to some degree,
what happens, we get hurt, we we

1893
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:19,280
show vulnerability and we have
these because of that, we have

1894
01:57:19,280 --> 01:57:21,920
these deep wounds.
Like think about your worst

1895
01:57:21,920 --> 01:57:24,960
times at your home life or in
grade school, man, you know, we

1896
01:57:24,960 --> 01:57:28,000
all, I hate to use like a
liberal buzzword, but we all

1897
01:57:28,000 --> 01:57:30,800
have trauma.
And this is, This is why

1898
01:57:30,800 --> 01:57:34,720
repentance is really difficult,
especially for men, because we

1899
01:57:34,720 --> 01:57:37,240
like to be tough.
We like to be cool.

1900
01:57:37,360 --> 01:57:40,240
We have fear of missing out.
You know, we want people to

1901
01:57:40,240 --> 01:57:44,720
think we're like these rigid and
and rough dudes.

1902
01:57:45,280 --> 01:57:46,880
That's why it definitely gets in
the way.

1903
01:57:47,520 --> 01:57:49,360
Yep, Yep.
The ego is the natural.

1904
01:57:49,360 --> 01:57:51,040
Man, dog, and that's what
prevents.

1905
01:57:51,040 --> 01:57:55,440
Repentance, you know, In fact,
I'm not afraid to say it.

1906
01:57:55,840 --> 01:57:58,400
Probably 1 of the reasons I
grew, I've only had a beard for

1907
01:57:58,400 --> 01:58:00,440
a year.
Probably one of the reasons I

1908
01:58:00,440 --> 01:58:04,360
grew it was to like sort of
amplify that masculine, that,

1909
01:58:04,520 --> 01:58:08,080
that masculine appearance I
desire, you know, like it's,

1910
01:58:08,240 --> 01:58:12,800
it's that kind of self honesty
that is absolutely necessary for

1911
01:58:12,800 --> 01:58:15,120
true repentance.
Bitter self honesty.

1912
01:58:15,680 --> 01:58:21,400
Like, let me give you a personal
example, classic example.

1913
01:58:21,640 --> 01:58:25,640
My kid spills milk it, it kind
of pisses me off.

1914
01:58:25,640 --> 01:58:27,920
So I kind of get at him, get on
him for it.

1915
01:58:29,280 --> 01:58:33,120
Well.
That's that's the.

1916
01:58:33,120 --> 01:58:34,840
Reason you even get.
Mad when that happens is

1917
01:58:34,840 --> 01:58:37,840
because.
You truly deep down, see your

1918
01:58:37,840 --> 01:58:41,000
child as a means to meeting your
own daily agenda.

1919
01:58:41,480 --> 01:58:44,280
And when they throw a curveball
on that daily agenda, oh great,

1920
01:58:44,280 --> 01:58:47,680
now I got to clean up the spill.
It pisses you off because you

1921
01:58:47,680 --> 01:58:50,920
see them as a means to an end
instead of an end in and of

1922
01:58:50,920 --> 01:58:53,960
themselves.
And I hope that hits home right

1923
01:58:53,960 --> 01:58:57,600
now for the listener.
That is the brutal self honesty

1924
01:58:57,600 --> 01:59:02,560
we all need because we all truly
deep down to to a degree view

1925
01:59:02,560 --> 01:59:04,160
other beings that means to an
end.

1926
01:59:04,360 --> 01:59:07,200
And we we are not vulnerable
with them.

1927
01:59:07,200 --> 01:59:10,000
We're not willing to truly give
ourselves and reveal ourselves

1928
01:59:10,000 --> 01:59:12,520
to them.
And this is like literally

1929
01:59:12,520 --> 01:59:15,680
what's required for Zion man.
What's the definition of Zion?

1930
01:59:16,840 --> 01:59:19,760
People of 1 heart and one mind,
one heart that's.

1931
01:59:19,760 --> 01:59:22,680
More than just hey, we're all
farming together, and we have.

1932
01:59:22,960 --> 01:59:28,320
We're checking the goals off the
it's to be of 1 heart, one mind

1933
01:59:28,320 --> 01:59:31,240
is like so much different than
just outwardly working for the

1934
01:59:31,240 --> 01:59:34,680
same 'cause you know, I, I think
when we talk about unity,

1935
01:59:34,680 --> 01:59:36,560
though, we have to be kind of
careful.

1936
01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:41,240
Here, right, 'cause I think of a
time in Scripture where God was

1937
01:59:41,240 --> 01:59:43,760
not happy with unity.
Sure.

1938
01:59:44,160 --> 01:59:46,760
Yeah, yes, if we look at the
tower.

1939
01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:49,400
Of Babel, right?
What's what's, What's the Lord

1940
01:59:49,400 --> 01:59:50,920
say?
Well, they're one and nothing

1941
01:59:50,920 --> 01:59:53,440
will be kept from them.
So he scatters them.

1942
01:59:53,440 --> 01:59:57,800
So unity for unity's sake, I
think we have to be very careful

1943
01:59:57,800 --> 02:00:01,360
as we approach that to make sure
that we're we're unified around

1944
02:00:01,360 --> 02:00:05,160
correct principles.
Otherwise, we have the risk of a

1945
02:00:05,160 --> 02:00:09,320
tremendous fall that that was
shown to us in in Genesis with

1946
02:00:09,320 --> 02:00:12,520
the Tower of Babel.
And I completely agree.

1947
02:00:12,920 --> 02:00:17,600
And here's my.
Addition to that, true unity is

1948
02:00:17,600 --> 02:00:21,640
not possible in wickedness.
You cannot be wicked and be

1949
02:00:21,640 --> 02:00:25,240
truly vulnerable and share in
authentic abiding relationships

1950
02:00:25,240 --> 02:00:28,320
like those people.
They were doing unity the way we

1951
02:00:28,320 --> 02:00:31,040
usually conceive of it.
They had this outward goal of

1952
02:00:31,040 --> 02:00:35,280
building a tower of maybe
engaging in the the false temple

1953
02:00:35,280 --> 02:00:37,960
or whatever, whatever the tower
Babel was, whether it was a, a,

1954
02:00:38,160 --> 02:00:43,280
a false temple or whatever,
true, true covenant love cannot

1955
02:00:43,280 --> 02:00:47,080
be experienced by in wickedness,
by wicked people.

1956
02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:51,840
So I'm talking about the godly
unity, the unity that he

1957
02:00:52,040 --> 02:00:55,280
prescribes and influences us to
participate in.

1958
02:00:55,920 --> 02:00:58,600
So, yeah, thanks for bringing
that up because I actually had

1959
02:00:58,600 --> 02:01:01,240
thought of that and wanted to
make sure I covered that because

1960
02:01:01,240 --> 02:01:04,440
you're totally right.
Unity for unity's stake is not

1961
02:01:05,320 --> 02:01:08,560
not good.
But you can't really have true

1962
02:01:08,560 --> 02:01:11,640
interpersonal unity in
wickedness.

1963
02:01:12,160 --> 02:01:15,200
It's like it's I don't even
think it's metaphysically

1964
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:19,160
possible because wickedness of
necessity.

1965
02:01:19,760 --> 02:01:21,520
Alienates people.
From each other.

1966
02:01:21,560 --> 02:01:23,640
It's it's selfish.
It's all for you.

1967
02:01:24,360 --> 02:01:26,920
You know what I mean?
Wouldn't God saying that they're

1968
02:01:27,680 --> 02:01:31,400
they are one?
Wouldn't that signify an

1969
02:01:31,400 --> 02:01:34,000
acknowledgement that they are
one in their wickedness?

1970
02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:37,480
I They're one in their
wickedness, but I I don't think

1971
02:01:37,480 --> 02:01:39,520
that can.
Possibly translate to an

1972
02:01:39,520 --> 02:01:41,920
interpersonal abiding, loving
unity.

1973
02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:44,800
OK.
I, I think it's more of like in

1974
02:01:44,800 --> 02:01:47,240
this outward agenda.
Like I said that the.

1975
02:01:47,240 --> 02:01:50,800
Transactional way, the way we
usually conceive of unity is

1976
02:01:50,800 --> 02:01:52,760
actually the way that they were
doing unity.

1977
02:01:52,760 --> 02:01:55,600
That's, you know, this is the
gospel according to Eleor.

1978
02:01:55,600 --> 02:01:58,920
So I I got you.
No, I'm tracking.

1979
02:01:59,840 --> 02:02:02,360
Yeah.
So again.

1980
02:02:03,200 --> 02:02:05,400
Repentance is the linchpin of
the whole thing.

1981
02:02:05,560 --> 02:02:09,720
It like if we want Zion in the
Kingdom of God, we have to be in

1982
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:15,400
a state of being, of repentance.
Repentance is not a checklist,

1983
02:02:15,800 --> 02:02:19,800
it is not purely outward.
It is fully embodied, meaning

1984
02:02:19,800 --> 02:02:24,400
there is a union of inward and
outward and it is a turning of

1985
02:02:24,400 --> 02:02:27,200
our hearts so that we can
reciprocate true relationship

1986
02:02:27,200 --> 02:02:30,320
with God and others and truly be
honest with ourselves.

1987
02:02:30,720 --> 02:02:33,800
And, and let me just give you
one example before we move on.

1988
02:02:34,240 --> 02:02:39,080
Enos, like the doctrine of
Christ is so perfectly portrayed

1989
02:02:39,080 --> 02:02:43,160
in second Nephi and then just a
few books later in the life of

1990
02:02:43,200 --> 02:02:45,880
Enos.
So Enos, the son of Jacob, the

1991
02:02:45,880 --> 02:02:50,680
brother of Nephi, goes into the
wilderness, so to speak.

1992
02:02:51,200 --> 02:02:53,040
You know, literally and
figuratively.

1993
02:02:54,360 --> 02:02:57,120
He wrestles before the Lord.
It's not a wrestle with.

1994
02:02:57,120 --> 02:02:59,280
The Lord.
It's a wrestle with his own

1995
02:02:59,280 --> 02:03:03,320
heart to render it broken, and
he succeeds.

1996
02:03:03,720 --> 02:03:06,480
And what happens?
The Spirit of God floods into

1997
02:03:06,480 --> 02:03:08,800
him.
He has a remission of sins.

1998
02:03:08,800 --> 02:03:11,000
He enters into covenant
relationship with God.

1999
02:03:11,320 --> 02:03:14,960
He enters the proverbial
terrestrial world or holy place,

2000
02:03:15,120 --> 02:03:18,440
or straight and narrow path, 2nd
heaven, whatever you want to

2001
02:03:18,440 --> 02:03:22,160
say.
And he is now unified with God

2002
02:03:22,160 --> 02:03:27,360
because he is repented.
So Enos I love.

2003
02:03:27,360 --> 02:03:30,160
The the example of Enos.
Because in my opinion, it's the

2004
02:03:30,320 --> 02:03:35,760
it's the perfect example.
And let's talk about what

2005
02:03:35,760 --> 02:03:38,200
happens when, when you truly
repent.

2006
02:03:38,200 --> 02:03:41,240
How do you know if you have
truly repented?

2007
02:03:41,760 --> 02:03:47,400
Well, it's all over the Book of
Mormon and and unfortunately, in

2008
02:03:47,400 --> 02:03:49,200
the church.
At least we have completely

2009
02:03:49,200 --> 02:03:50,880
lost.
Sight of this beautiful

2010
02:03:50,880 --> 02:03:57,160
doctrine, the doctrine or event
of justification, redemption,

2011
02:03:57,680 --> 02:04:01,360
being born again, or being
baptized by fire, those are all

2012
02:04:01,360 --> 02:04:04,200
like synonymous.
Those are all the same thing.

2013
02:04:04,600 --> 02:04:09,080
They happen the moment you truly
repent for the first time, and

2014
02:04:09,080 --> 02:04:12,000
they will have, they will happen
subsequently after that too.

2015
02:04:12,000 --> 02:04:14,800
You know, there are degrees of
this, but the very first time

2016
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:18,240
you do, it is like, that's the
moment you enter the terrestrial

2017
02:04:18,240 --> 02:04:20,960
world, right?
The proverbial terrestrial

2018
02:04:20,960 --> 02:04:26,880
world.
So this, this event that

2019
02:04:26,880 --> 02:04:30,480
happens, justification,
redemption, being born again,

2020
02:04:30,480 --> 02:04:35,200
baptism of fire, it is played
out in Enos, one which we just

2021
02:04:35,200 --> 02:04:38,720
described after true broken
hearted repentance, vulnerable

2022
02:04:38,720 --> 02:04:42,280
repentance.
And then it is also played out

2023
02:04:42,280 --> 02:04:46,200
in Mosiah 5, when King
Benjamin's people are born again

2024
02:04:46,200 --> 02:04:50,960
as a community, and then Mosiah
27.

2025
02:04:51,080 --> 02:04:56,360
When Alma is born again.
After three days of hell, then

2026
02:04:56,360 --> 02:04:58,800
Alma 19.
When?

2027
02:04:59,840 --> 02:05:04,880
King Lemoni is born again and he
sings the song of redeeming love

2028
02:05:04,880 --> 02:05:08,560
with with which is just a
euphemism for this event

2029
02:05:08,560 --> 02:05:11,200
justification, baptism of a
fire, whatever you want to call

2030
02:05:11,200 --> 02:05:15,840
it.
And Kilaman 5, the Lamanite

2031
02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:19,600
prison guards or whatever it is,
are they're wicked, but they all

2032
02:05:19,600 --> 02:05:21,480
have this born again to
experience together.

2033
02:05:21,480 --> 02:05:26,000
And, and, and Nephi and Lehigh,
the sons of Helaman, seem to be

2034
02:05:26,600 --> 02:05:28,720
enwrapped in fire, in the fire
of God.

2035
02:05:29,040 --> 02:05:32,560
By the way, that is apocalyptic
and liturgical, that whole

2036
02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:35,280
sequence.
Helaman five.

2037
02:05:35,560 --> 02:05:37,880
Well, well, I hope I'm making a
connection.

2038
02:05:37,880 --> 02:05:42,600
There is a clear connection
between what apocalyptic liturgy

2039
02:05:42,600 --> 02:05:45,360
is teaching us.
Or there's a clear connection

2040
02:05:45,360 --> 02:05:49,880
between apocalyptic liturgy and
the baptism of fire and the the

2041
02:05:49,880 --> 02:05:52,680
ascent to the terrestrial world
and then the celestial world,

2042
02:05:53,040 --> 02:05:55,200
the literal inward ascent that
we experience.

2043
02:05:57,400 --> 02:06:00,400
And where else?
Oh, in John 3, Christ says.

2044
02:06:00,400 --> 02:06:04,880
We need to be born.
Again and then DNC 20, the

2045
02:06:04,880 --> 02:06:08,480
articles of the church when when
the Church was formed, DNC 20

2046
02:06:08,480 --> 02:06:11,680
was like the the Constitution of
the church.

2047
02:06:12,640 --> 02:06:15,920
DNC 20.
In DNC 20, the Lord says that

2048
02:06:16,160 --> 02:06:21,080
the doctrines of justification
by faith and sanctification by

2049
02:06:21,080 --> 02:06:24,760
synthesis of faith and works is
just and true.

2050
02:06:25,760 --> 02:06:29,200
So justification and
sanctification are part of the

2051
02:06:29,200 --> 02:06:31,840
doctrine of Christ.
They're Protestant terms.

2052
02:06:32,200 --> 02:06:35,200
The Book of Mormon never uses
the term justification to

2053
02:06:35,200 --> 02:06:36,800
describe this event we're
talking about.

2054
02:06:36,800 --> 02:06:40,560
It uses the term redemption,
born again or baptized in fire

2055
02:06:41,600 --> 02:06:44,600
but but but this event is when
the spirit of.

2056
02:06:44,600 --> 02:06:47,320
God takes up a.
Boat in you and literally

2057
02:06:47,320 --> 02:06:51,720
intertwines with your spirit.
You guys share you when you are

2058
02:06:51,720 --> 02:06:53,280
born again when you were
justified.

2059
02:06:53,280 --> 02:06:55,840
You share a literal life force
with God.

2060
02:06:56,080 --> 02:06:57,840
Remember the beginning of our
discussion.

2061
02:06:58,280 --> 02:07:00,400
There's a reason why we had to
touch on the everlasting

2062
02:07:00,400 --> 02:07:04,240
covenant.
Their spirits proceed forth from

2063
02:07:04,240 --> 02:07:06,680
their immediate presence to fill
the immensity of space.

2064
02:07:07,480 --> 02:07:11,800
You are born again when you
repent sufficiently, when you

2065
02:07:11,800 --> 02:07:14,600
open your heart for the first
time and allow that spirit to

2066
02:07:14,600 --> 02:07:18,040
take up abode in you and
intertwine with your spirit and

2067
02:07:18,040 --> 02:07:25,040
in the Greek New Testament, the
word for life, Zoe, the Greek

2068
02:07:25,040 --> 02:07:28,320
New Testament talks about how.
God gives us life.

2069
02:07:28,320 --> 02:07:31,400
When we're in covenant unity
with him, the word for life is

2070
02:07:31,400 --> 02:07:35,600
Zoe, and it is.
Zoe is literally life force.

2071
02:07:36,040 --> 02:07:38,840
It is not just some abstract
notion of life, it is a

2072
02:07:38,840 --> 02:07:42,880
metaphysical reality.
When you are born again, the

2073
02:07:42,880 --> 02:07:46,600
literal energy of God takes up
abode in you, and that's when

2074
02:07:46,600 --> 02:07:49,800
you begin the process of
sanctification.

2075
02:07:51,760 --> 02:07:55,800
There's a yes.
Justification is an event.

2076
02:07:55,800 --> 02:07:59,280
That's when you enter the gate,
as Nephi would say, explaining

2077
02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:02,280
Lehi's vision.
That's when you enter the gate

2078
02:08:02,280 --> 02:08:05,640
to the terrestrial world.
Sanctification is what gets you

2079
02:08:05,640 --> 02:08:09,320
from the terrestrial world to
the celestial to be at one with

2080
02:08:09,320 --> 02:08:11,040
God.
So let's talk about

2081
02:08:11,040 --> 02:08:13,560
sanctification.
And by the way, to be

2082
02:08:13,560 --> 02:08:16,240
sanctified, you got to stay in
the state of faith and

2083
02:08:16,240 --> 02:08:18,480
repentance.
You can't stop doing that

2084
02:08:18,480 --> 02:08:20,600
throughout this whole process.
Your heart has to be opened

2085
02:08:20,600 --> 02:08:27,200
continually.
But sanctification is when, when

2086
02:08:27,200 --> 02:08:31,320
that Spirit of God has taken up
abode in you, it begins to

2087
02:08:31,320 --> 02:08:35,280
quicken your spirit.
Glory is a real thing.

2088
02:08:35,400 --> 02:08:37,720
Like, like God is full of
energy, right?

2089
02:08:37,720 --> 02:08:41,680
He is bright and burning.
That guy has a lot of energy, so

2090
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:46,360
to speak, a lot of glory, and
sanctification is the process of

2091
02:08:46,360 --> 02:08:47,720
that glory.
Which is taking up.

2092
02:08:47,720 --> 02:08:51,680
Abode in you, glorifying your
own spirit until you are

2093
02:08:51,680 --> 02:08:54,240
exalted.
Gotcha.

2094
02:08:54,680 --> 02:08:57,040
So justification and
sanctification.

2095
02:08:57,520 --> 02:08:59,800
There, there's a really good.
Analogy for it like a light

2096
02:08:59,800 --> 02:09:04,680
bulb.
So picture a action or a light

2097
02:09:04,680 --> 02:09:08,280
switch.
I mean picture a light switch

2098
02:09:08,280 --> 02:09:10,320
and then a dimmer switch right
next to it.

2099
02:09:11,720 --> 02:09:14,520
If the light switch is off, the
dimmer switch.

2100
02:09:14,520 --> 02:09:16,680
Doesn't even work.
You can't turn the light up or

2101
02:09:16,680 --> 02:09:19,800
down.
Justification is is the

2102
02:09:19,800 --> 02:09:23,560
switching on of the light and
then sanctification is the

2103
02:09:23,560 --> 02:09:26,760
sliding of the dimmer from low
to high.

2104
02:09:28,080 --> 02:09:32,920
As as we read earlier, the Lord
quickens us until the perfect

2105
02:09:32,920 --> 02:09:35,680
day, His light quickens us until
the perfect day.

2106
02:09:35,680 --> 02:09:39,680
So, so justification and
sanctification take us to

2107
02:09:39,680 --> 02:09:44,320
exaltation and repentance is
absolutely necessary for this.

2108
02:09:44,320 --> 02:09:47,200
Hey, let's, let's talk about
repentance here for a minute,

2109
02:09:47,200 --> 02:09:48,520
because I, I want to make sure
I'm.

2110
02:09:48,520 --> 02:09:51,440
Understanding correctly here on
this, yeah.

2111
02:09:51,960 --> 02:09:54,520
Are are you saying that a state
of?

2112
02:09:54,520 --> 02:09:56,960
Daily Repentance.
Is necessary.

2113
02:09:58,040 --> 02:10:02,160
I'm saying you.
Know what Joseph Smith said?

2114
02:10:03,320 --> 02:10:06,920
Joseph Smith said that daily.
Daily transgressing.

2115
02:10:06,920 --> 02:10:12,280
And transgression and daily
repentance is not that which is

2116
02:10:12,280 --> 02:10:15,200
pleasing in the sight of God.
Yes.

2117
02:10:15,400 --> 02:10:17,800
So you know, you know what I do
personally?

2118
02:10:18,280 --> 02:10:22,120
I don't think it's a sin in and
of itself to repent daily like

2119
02:10:22,120 --> 02:10:26,080
verbally 'cause I I repent daily
verbally to God in prayer.

2120
02:10:26,720 --> 02:10:30,960
But here's the problem when
that's that is as far as it

2121
02:10:30,960 --> 02:10:36,240
goes, because in truth, true
repentance is when you

2122
02:10:36,240 --> 02:10:40,040
constantly keep your heart open
to the Spirit of God so that you

2123
02:10:40,040 --> 02:10:43,320
can yield to that light in
thought, word and deed.

2124
02:10:44,000 --> 02:10:46,680
When you're when the Spirit of
God has taken up a Boden to you

2125
02:10:46,680 --> 02:10:49,480
after true repentance, it is
going to be influencing you and

2126
02:10:49,480 --> 02:10:51,360
thought word indeed at all
times.

2127
02:10:52,320 --> 02:10:55,880
True repentance is contingent
upon you doing your best to

2128
02:10:55,880 --> 02:11:01,680
yield to that and then
correcting yourself when when

2129
02:11:02,120 --> 02:11:04,360
when you don't do that if.
You will, because remember God.

2130
02:11:04,360 --> 02:11:08,320
Says God is merciful and there's
a grace period, but he says my

2131
02:11:08,320 --> 02:11:14,080
spirit will not always strive
with man so true repentance is

2132
02:11:14,080 --> 02:11:15,720
a.
Is a condition of your heart.

2133
02:11:16,120 --> 02:11:18,640
And there are metaphysical
implications.

2134
02:11:19,080 --> 02:11:24,160
The energy or life force of God
stays with you when you are in a

2135
02:11:24,160 --> 02:11:28,200
state of repentance.
And amazingly, King Benjamin

2136
02:11:28,200 --> 02:11:31,680
teaches us that when we are in
the state, when we have the Holy

2137
02:11:31,680 --> 02:11:34,480
Ghost or the Spirit of God, when
we are in covenant relationship

2138
02:11:34,480 --> 02:11:38,000
with them, we retain a remission
of our sins.

2139
02:11:38,360 --> 02:11:43,320
So the crazy implication of that
is when we stay in a state of

2140
02:11:43,320 --> 02:11:47,600
repentance, which necessitates
being continually sanctified

2141
02:11:49,320 --> 02:11:51,200
because you can only go forward
or backward.

2142
02:11:51,280 --> 02:11:53,880
You, you can't.
There's no such thing as as

2143
02:11:53,880 --> 02:11:57,520
being still or on the fence when
you are continually striving to

2144
02:11:57,520 --> 02:11:59,920
go forward.
Even there are obviously always

2145
02:11:59,920 --> 02:12:02,800
minor setbacks because we're
we're weak and we're fallen.

2146
02:12:03,480 --> 02:12:07,320
But oh, I can't remember where I
was going with that.

2147
02:12:07,560 --> 02:12:08,440
But when?
When you were.

2148
02:12:08,440 --> 02:12:13,240
Continually.
Striving on that path, that

2149
02:12:13,240 --> 02:12:18,240
Spirit of God is going to
continually glorify you and

2150
02:12:18,240 --> 02:12:22,200
sanctify you.
So again, repentance is a state

2151
02:12:22,200 --> 02:12:23,920
of being.
It's a condition of your heart

2152
02:12:24,200 --> 02:12:27,160
and there are real spiritual
implications to that condition.

2153
02:12:27,880 --> 02:12:29,360
Oh, and here's what I was going
to say.

2154
02:12:29,800 --> 02:12:32,720
King Benjamin teaches us that we
we retain the remission of our

2155
02:12:32,720 --> 02:12:34,600
sins.
What does that mean, dude?

2156
02:12:35,120 --> 02:12:39,560
It means we're perfect.
We are sin free if we remain in

2157
02:12:39,560 --> 02:12:43,240
a state of repentance in in a
way, you know, we're not perfect

2158
02:12:43,240 --> 02:12:46,240
in the same way that Jesus is.
We're not fully exalted, but but

2159
02:12:46,240 --> 02:12:49,560
we are sin free.
And so something I try to do

2160
02:12:49,560 --> 02:12:55,040
every single morning is do the
daily sacrifice and lay my heart

2161
02:12:55,040 --> 02:12:56,560
on the altar in that morning
prayer.

2162
02:12:57,120 --> 02:13:00,920
Because if I'm doing my best to
render my heart broken to God

2163
02:13:00,920 --> 02:13:03,760
first thing in the morning,
which involves true honesty and

2164
02:13:03,760 --> 02:13:08,400
vulnerability, then that that
means that I will have a greater

2165
02:13:08,400 --> 02:13:10,400
chance of success throughout the
rest of the day.

2166
02:13:12,480 --> 02:13:15,680
So any other any.
Thoughts on that or questions?

2167
02:13:16,360 --> 02:13:21,240
Yeah, it it doesn't necessarily.
Tell me how it squares with.

2168
02:13:21,240 --> 02:13:24,160
Joseph's comment.
But I'm willing to sit with it

2169
02:13:24,160 --> 02:13:26,440
for a while and see see what I
come up with.

2170
02:13:27,240 --> 02:13:30,440
Well, which comment the comment
on you shouldn't trifle with.

2171
02:13:30,440 --> 02:13:33,160
Daily repentance.
Yeah, you shouldn't trifle with

2172
02:13:33,920 --> 02:13:38,320
daily daily transgression.
And daily, daily repentance

2173
02:13:38,320 --> 02:13:41,840
isn't isn't what God is after is
what Joseph is.

2174
02:13:42,880 --> 02:13:45,680
And so I I tend to think that at
some.

2175
02:13:45,680 --> 02:13:49,120
Point.
We should be able to say, OK,

2176
02:13:49,120 --> 02:13:52,000
you know what, I've, I've
repented of this maybe a couple

2177
02:13:52,000 --> 02:13:55,160
of times, OK, and I've overcome
this and I've put it behind us.

2178
02:13:55,600 --> 02:13:58,200
So and then move on to the next
thing, right?

2179
02:13:58,200 --> 02:14:02,120
I, I think there has to be a
progression of sorts.

2180
02:14:02,120 --> 02:14:04,520
As you said, you can't really
stay static, right?

2181
02:14:04,800 --> 02:14:10,040
So if you're not overcoming
those things, I guess my fear in

2182
02:14:10,040 --> 02:14:12,720
is that looking at that as it.
Was presented and maybe it's.

2183
02:14:12,720 --> 02:14:16,800
Just me and I'm misunderstanding
which I'm totally down for this

2184
02:14:16,800 --> 02:14:20,880
idea of as long as you're in
that.

2185
02:14:21,880 --> 02:14:25,400
In that place.
Of constant it would kind of

2186
02:14:25,600 --> 02:14:29,160
serve like well, I almost need
to screw up in order to stay in

2187
02:14:29,160 --> 02:14:31,800
this constant state of
repentance no, I think there's I

2188
02:14:31,800 --> 02:14:36,640
think there's been a
misunderstanding OK because if.

2189
02:14:36,640 --> 02:14:39,720
You are constantly.
Open to God you will.

2190
02:14:39,720 --> 02:14:43,720
Be yielding to his light, which
will cause you to increase in

2191
02:14:43,720 --> 02:14:46,560
righteousness and glory.
Joseph's statement actually

2192
02:14:46,560 --> 02:14:49,440
vindicates what I'm saying.
It, it what it does?

2193
02:14:49,440 --> 02:14:54,640
Is it it It's the opposite, is
what we usually do.

2194
02:14:54,640 --> 02:14:56,480
We're not.
Truly becoming we're.

2195
02:14:56,480 --> 02:14:57,840
Not truly opening our heart to
God.

2196
02:14:58,080 --> 02:15:01,280
We like we do, we do this
checklist repentance and it's

2197
02:15:01,280 --> 02:15:02,960
the same old thing day in and
day out.

2198
02:15:02,960 --> 02:15:05,400
That's what Joseph is is railing
against.

2199
02:15:05,800 --> 02:15:08,040
He's actually vindicating what
I'm saying.

2200
02:15:08,680 --> 02:15:12,360
You should your heart needs to
be open and vulnerable to God

2201
02:15:12,640 --> 02:15:16,160
such that you were in covenant
relationship with him so that he

2202
02:15:16,160 --> 02:15:19,040
is constantly influencing you in
thought word indeed, or you're

2203
02:15:19,040 --> 02:15:22,080
allowing him to you're allowing
him to influence you in thought

2204
02:15:22,080 --> 02:15:23,880
word indeed.
And you were constantly

2205
02:15:23,880 --> 02:15:27,600
overcoming your sin and and
being perfected that that's what

2206
02:15:27,600 --> 02:15:29,600
sanctification is.
That's what I'm getting at.

2207
02:15:29,920 --> 02:15:32,760
So I'm I'm definitely not saying
that you should remain static.

2208
02:15:32,760 --> 02:15:34,440
I'm saying the the exact
opposite.

2209
02:15:34,920 --> 02:15:37,080
OK, All right.
Yeah.

2210
02:15:37,160 --> 02:15:41,040
Any other thoughts on that?
Nope, I think we're good.

2211
02:15:41,960 --> 02:15:48,480
OK, so this leads us to I, I
guess I just want to touch on

2212
02:15:48,480 --> 02:15:51,560
ritualizing real quick.
When you, when you learn how to

2213
02:15:51,560 --> 02:15:54,880
be open hearted or broken
hearted as a state of being,

2214
02:15:55,800 --> 02:15:58,840
you're able to like make space
for a lot of things.

2215
02:15:59,520 --> 02:16:02,520
And that includes that includes
relationships with others to

2216
02:16:02,520 --> 02:16:06,760
truly make space for people to,
to again, getting back to that I

2217
02:16:06,760 --> 02:16:09,320
thou relationship, I talked at
the beginning of I talked about

2218
02:16:09,320 --> 02:16:11,560
at the beginning of our
discussion, but also the

2219
02:16:11,560 --> 02:16:14,760
rituals, man, we talked about
the the three-part temple

2220
02:16:14,760 --> 02:16:18,160
ascent.
Right when you are broken

2221
02:16:18,160 --> 02:16:24,880
hearted, you are able to make
space such that as you are

2222
02:16:24,880 --> 02:16:29,920
ritualizing, you are becoming
because when you are in that,

2223
02:16:29,960 --> 02:16:32,680
when you are in that state of
broken heartedness, you're able

2224
02:16:32,680 --> 02:16:37,840
to be aware of what the rituals
are trying to teach you and and

2225
02:16:37,840 --> 02:16:40,200
life takes on a whole new
meaning.

2226
02:16:40,840 --> 02:16:43,600
And I'm not just talking about
the rituals of salvation,

2227
02:16:44,040 --> 02:16:46,760
baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost
all the way up to the second

2228
02:16:46,760 --> 02:16:49,799
anointing.
Yes, those are the most

2229
02:16:49,799 --> 02:16:51,520
beautiful rituals we participate
in.

2230
02:16:52,040 --> 02:16:53,920
I'm talking about every ritual
though.

2231
02:16:54,600 --> 02:16:58,719
When when you come into a broken
heart when you choose into a

2232
02:16:58,719 --> 02:17:04,959
broken heart and covenant
relationship with God life.

2233
02:17:04,959 --> 02:17:08,240
Just becomes so.
Much more beautiful washing the

2234
02:17:08,240 --> 02:17:13,719
dishes becomes a very edifying
ritual, mowing the lawn because

2235
02:17:13,719 --> 02:17:15,760
they all teach the patterns of
eternity.

2236
02:17:16,559 --> 02:17:19,959
Dude, the sacrament of marriage,
one of the most powerful rituals

2237
02:17:19,959 --> 02:17:21,920
we have the privilege of
participating in it.

2238
02:17:22,040 --> 02:17:25,080
It teaches so much about eternal
reality.

2239
02:17:25,760 --> 02:17:29,719
So that's that's a really cool
aspect about becoming a

2240
02:17:29,719 --> 02:17:33,879
repentant person is the these
ordinances that we hold so

2241
02:17:33,879 --> 02:17:38,799
dearly are able to help you make
those inward changes are able to

2242
02:17:38,799 --> 02:17:45,000
help you become right and now
find.

2243
02:17:45,000 --> 02:17:48,080
I guess the final point I want.
To make is talking about

2244
02:17:48,080 --> 02:17:52,559
covenant relationships and I
thou encounters again or just

2245
02:17:52,559 --> 02:17:58,600
interpersonal relationships.
So the whole goal of of this, of

2246
02:17:58,600 --> 02:18:05,040
why we're here even is to see
and know each other and God as

2247
02:18:05,040 --> 02:18:09,719
we truly are, to encounter one
another.

2248
02:18:09,719 --> 02:18:13,600
As ends in and of.
Ourselves not as a means to an

2249
02:18:13,600 --> 02:18:16,480
end or a means to be justified
somehow.

2250
02:18:17,879 --> 02:18:20,799
We we want justification from
God, but we often look for it in

2251
02:18:20,799 --> 02:18:24,840
man is what I'm trying to say,
which is transactional and not

2252
02:18:24,840 --> 02:18:29,600
interpersonal and becoming
repentant.

2253
02:18:29,719 --> 02:18:32,400
Embodying the doctrine.
Of Christ embodying the rituals

2254
02:18:32,959 --> 02:18:39,520
teaches us how to freely give,
give ourselves to God and give

2255
02:18:39,520 --> 02:18:43,400
ourselves to one another such
that Zion in the Kingdom of God

2256
02:18:43,400 --> 02:18:46,280
can emerge.
Because if we're doing, we've

2257
02:18:46,280 --> 02:18:49,840
tried doing the outward to usher
and Zion, the Kingdom of God,

2258
02:18:49,840 --> 02:18:52,360
and it's never worked because we
haven't been living the inward,

2259
02:18:52,360 --> 02:18:55,480
the doctrine of Christ.
So I guess at the whole heart of

2260
02:18:55,480 --> 02:18:57,920
this I, I said repentance was at
the whole heart of this.

2261
02:18:57,920 --> 02:19:01,120
And that's true.
But it's because repentance has

2262
02:19:01,120 --> 02:19:03,600
to do with our relationships
with God and our fellow man.

2263
02:19:05,600 --> 02:19:08,920
So I guess.
That.

2264
02:19:08,920 --> 02:19:15,600
Sums up my presentation and I I
just want to say that Zion and

2265
02:19:15,600 --> 02:19:17,400
the Kingdom of God cannot be
ushered.

2266
02:19:17,400 --> 02:19:18,799
In unless we embody the doctrine
of.

2267
02:19:18,799 --> 02:19:22,799
Christ, which you know,
comprehends all doctrines,

2268
02:19:22,799 --> 02:19:24,360
including.
Celestial marriage and.

2269
02:19:24,360 --> 02:19:28,840
Consecration too, but we really
have to learn faith and

2270
02:19:28,840 --> 02:19:33,280
repentance first.
And two, like we need another

2271
02:19:33,280 --> 02:19:36,719
great awakening and Mormonism,
another revolution.

2272
02:19:36,719 --> 02:19:40,440
Because here's what happens
when, when these Mormon covenant

2273
02:19:40,440 --> 02:19:43,600
bodies begin to truly live the
doctrine of Christ and repent

2274
02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:47,480
and enter into covenant unity
with God and each other, they

2275
02:19:47,480 --> 02:19:50,040
start receiving gifts of the
Spirit like crazy.

2276
02:19:50,040 --> 02:19:53,840
They start receiving angels.
They see the literal Jesus

2277
02:19:53,840 --> 02:19:56,120
Christ.
This is what the city of Enoch

2278
02:19:56,120 --> 02:19:58,600
did.
They lived, they successfully

2279
02:19:58,600 --> 02:20:02,360
lived these doctrines and they
thwarted every effort of Satan

2280
02:20:02,440 --> 02:20:06,040
to derail them from that through
our own inherent selfishness and

2281
02:20:06,040 --> 02:20:10,080
whatever else.
So the whole point is we are all

2282
02:20:10,280 --> 02:20:13,080
longing for Zion and the Kingdom
of God in our day.

2283
02:20:14,120 --> 02:20:18,160
And I testify.
That if we lived the doctrine of

2284
02:20:18,160 --> 02:20:23,120
Christ right now in our
congregations, if we if tonight

2285
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:26,520
or or today, whatever time it is
when you're listening to this,

2286
02:20:26,920 --> 02:20:31,120
if you wrestle before God to
render your heart broken such

2287
02:20:31,120 --> 02:20:36,280
that his Spirit can flow into it
and then you teach your family

2288
02:20:36,280 --> 02:20:38,040
how to do you.
You help your family to do the.

2289
02:20:38,040 --> 02:20:41,560
Same and and then, you know, you
help your congregation to do the

2290
02:20:41,560 --> 02:20:47,320
same and so on that that
influence will cascade and that

2291
02:20:47,320 --> 02:20:49,440
is how Zion and the Kingdom of
God are ushered forth.

2292
02:20:50,400 --> 02:20:55,000
So that's that's my whole spiel.
I guess you could say that's

2293
02:20:55,200 --> 02:20:57,040
this is the thing I'm.
Most passionate about.

2294
02:20:57,520 --> 02:21:01,000
Gotcha.
OK, so now I I got one question

2295
02:21:01,000 --> 02:21:05,120
that I.
I want to ask and the, the and

2296
02:21:05,120 --> 02:21:09,840
again, nothing you said there
necessarily.

2297
02:21:09,840 --> 02:21:13,400
I disagree with at all.
Right, I think that we do need a

2298
02:21:13,440 --> 02:21:16,040
deeper, more personal
relationship with deity.

2299
02:21:16,400 --> 02:21:18,720
It's what Mormonism promises,
right?

2300
02:21:21,080 --> 02:21:25,640
However, it's a bold claim when
you say this is the reason we

2301
02:21:25,640 --> 02:21:28,360
didn't get Zion.
So I'm going to hold you to that

2302
02:21:28,360 --> 02:21:34,320
now. 100% if this.
If this is what we're missing.

2303
02:21:35,120 --> 02:21:37,760
And Joseph's whole thrust was to
get us there.

2304
02:21:38,360 --> 02:21:40,400
Yeah.
Why didn't Joseph illuminate

2305
02:21:40,400 --> 02:21:41,920
these more clearly at the
beginning?

2306
02:21:42,480 --> 02:21:45,400
He did, bro.
He was always they They

2307
02:21:45,400 --> 02:21:47,080
understood.
This a lot better than we do

2308
02:21:47,080 --> 02:21:49,640
today.
They, they, they talked about

2309
02:21:49,640 --> 02:21:52,600
the gospel of repentance all the
time and they inherently knew

2310
02:21:53,080 --> 02:21:55,240
what justification and
sanctification meant.

2311
02:21:55,600 --> 02:21:57,880
They knew about this
metaphysical reality.

2312
02:21:57,880 --> 02:22:00,800
And and I know that because it's
a literally in our scripture and

2313
02:22:00,800 --> 02:22:05,840
it, this is like verifiable fact
in the I was just having this

2314
02:22:05,840 --> 02:22:09,480
conversation with my wife.
Like literally, I get what you

2315
02:22:09,480 --> 02:22:11,480
mean.
How come Joseph didn't say this?

2316
02:22:11,720 --> 02:22:13,440
The truth is he did all the
time.

2317
02:22:13,800 --> 02:22:18,360
They didn't need to explain it
this way because they knew they

2318
02:22:18,360 --> 02:22:22,240
knew what was entailed in the
terminology they were using.

2319
02:22:22,640 --> 02:22:24,680
And we've lost sight of that.
And here's why.

2320
02:22:25,240 --> 02:22:28,720
Because the mainstream church
and the fundamentalist sex

2321
02:22:29,880 --> 02:22:33,720
somehow just became very.
Rooted in tradition.

2322
02:22:34,400 --> 02:22:40,240
And not in becoming and I and I,
and, and so I promise you, I can

2323
02:22:40,240 --> 02:22:42,600
show you Joseph did teach this
very thing.

2324
02:22:42,880 --> 02:22:46,680
He lived and he taught it when
whenever you hear him mention

2325
02:22:46,680 --> 02:22:50,080
the gospel of repentance, that's
what the doctrine of Christ is,

2326
02:22:50,640 --> 02:22:54,520
the gospel of repentance of
being born again and then

2327
02:22:54,520 --> 02:22:56,800
yielding that spirit until
you're received into the

2328
02:22:56,800 --> 02:22:59,680
presence of God, until you
receive your second comforter.

2329
02:22:59,680 --> 02:23:02,440
And you know what I mean?
Like that's the whole plan, man,

2330
02:23:02,800 --> 02:23:06,840
that and, and then if a people
do this, Zion will emerge.

2331
02:23:06,880 --> 02:23:10,360
And it is a bold claim.
And I would, I would like die

2332
02:23:10,680 --> 02:23:14,160
defending that claim.
The doctrine of Christ is at the

2333
02:23:14,160 --> 02:23:16,720
heart of everything and
repentance is at the heart of

2334
02:23:16,720 --> 02:23:20,600
the doctrine of Christ And, and
the, the outward rituals, the

2335
02:23:20,600 --> 02:23:22,920
embodied life is super critical
to that too.

2336
02:23:23,280 --> 02:23:26,320
So again, if anybody thinks I've
sounded like a Protestant, I,

2337
02:23:27,200 --> 02:23:30,840
I'm just telling you like I am,
I am not Protestant in any way,

2338
02:23:30,840 --> 02:23:34,960
shape or form.
I hold strongly to the Hebraic

2339
02:23:34,960 --> 02:23:37,760
view and the Mormon view of
scripture what Joseph Smith

2340
02:23:37,760 --> 02:23:39,160
taught.
Gotcha.

2341
02:23:39,920 --> 02:23:42,200
OK, fair enough.
No, dude, I think that.

2342
02:23:42,520 --> 02:23:44,800
Yeah, that that pretty much
answers the questions.

2343
02:23:45,000 --> 02:23:46,720
We went to some deep waters, my
man.

2344
02:23:47,840 --> 02:23:48,960
Yeah, we did.
I hope.

2345
02:23:48,960 --> 02:23:51,600
I hope people are OK treading
water out there.

2346
02:23:52,040 --> 02:23:53,560
I like it.
I'm here for it.

2347
02:23:53,560 --> 02:23:55,280
I dig these kind of
conversations.

2348
02:23:55,280 --> 02:23:56,120
So it's all.
Good.

2349
02:23:56,120 --> 02:23:57,680
Me too, man.
Well dude, that was awesome.

2350
02:23:57,680 --> 02:23:59,000
Anything else you want to hit
on?

2351
02:24:01,160 --> 02:24:03,760
No, I just, I pray to God
Almighty.

2352
02:24:03,760 --> 02:24:06,560
That Zion is Zion emerges in my
day.

2353
02:24:06,560 --> 02:24:12,640
I I'll, I'll say this, I'll say.
This and I hope, the Spirit.

2354
02:24:12,640 --> 02:24:14,520
Hits you or hit hits the
listener.

2355
02:24:14,520 --> 02:24:20,000
I mean, I know beyond a shadow
of a doubt that the baptism of

2356
02:24:20,000 --> 02:24:23,840
fire as it pertains to God and
as it pertains to connecting

2357
02:24:23,840 --> 02:24:27,120
with a fellow mortal as well, is
a true doctrine.

2358
02:24:27,440 --> 02:24:32,760
I know it is a real experience.
I, I will say that I'd like to

2359
02:24:32,760 --> 02:24:35,360
say I know my savior, my second
comforter.

2360
02:24:36,400 --> 02:24:39,480
I do know him to a degree.
What I know is the first

2361
02:24:39,480 --> 02:24:44,480
comforter, but that that is an
amazing spiritual gift in and of

2362
02:24:44,480 --> 02:24:47,800
itself.
So this is what we need.

2363
02:24:48,080 --> 02:24:49,840
We need.
To repent.

2364
02:24:50,280 --> 02:24:53,280
Such that we receive the Spirit
of God and enter the proverbial

2365
02:24:53,280 --> 02:24:55,640
terrestrial world or or whatever
you want to call it.

2366
02:24:56,080 --> 02:24:57,920
And then we need to ascend
beyond that.

2367
02:24:57,920 --> 02:25:02,040
We need to yield to that spirit
increase in that covenant

2368
02:25:02,040 --> 02:25:05,480
relationship participation until
we find ourselves at the throne

2369
02:25:05,840 --> 02:25:09,360
like the apocalyptic prophets.
So that's my message.

2370
02:25:09,360 --> 02:25:15,280
We we can do it right now like
the Mormon, the different Mormon

2371
02:25:15,280 --> 02:25:17,920
denominations can do this right
now.

2372
02:25:18,280 --> 02:25:22,800
There could be a congregation in
the next few weeks that have the

2373
02:25:22,800 --> 02:25:25,840
visitation of angels during
their sacrament meeting.

2374
02:25:26,280 --> 02:25:30,400
If the individuals, families,
the the individuals and families

2375
02:25:30,400 --> 02:25:34,800
of that congregation did this,
they gave their hearts to God.

2376
02:25:35,440 --> 02:25:37,160
I'm telling you, this is the
answer.

2377
02:25:37,520 --> 02:25:40,640
This is what we need.
And I again, I would die

2378
02:25:40,640 --> 02:25:42,880
preaching this and I mean that
with all my heart.

2379
02:25:43,160 --> 02:25:46,000
So that's, that is my last will
and testament.

2380
02:25:46,840 --> 02:25:50,320
Awesome, beautiful, good stuff.
Matt, do you got any notes?

2381
02:25:50,320 --> 02:25:53,360
Or anything you can send me on
this so I can maybe stick them

2382
02:25:53,360 --> 02:25:56,480
in the show notes?
Yeah, I'll send you my entire

2383
02:25:56,480 --> 02:25:57,760
outline.
Let me just.

2384
02:25:58,200 --> 02:25:59,600
Let me just touch it up a little
bit.

2385
02:26:00,000 --> 02:26:02,440
Yeah, touch it up.
You got, you got about two

2386
02:26:02,440 --> 02:26:05,600
weeks, so.
Because I won't release this

2387
02:26:05,600 --> 02:26:07,760
until a week from Saturday, so
you should be good.

2388
02:26:08,440 --> 02:26:10,040
OK, brother.
Awesome.

2389
02:26:10,240 --> 02:26:11,720
Stick around for 5 minutes, all
right?

2390
02:26:12,840 --> 02:26:14,200
You bet.
All right.

2391
02:26:14,280 --> 02:26:42,800
Bye everybody.
The.