Episode #15: One Continuous Covenant With Joshua Erickson

0:04 On this episode of the podcast, I sit down. Have a conversation with Joshua Erickson. Now, I've known Joshua for just about a year, he's a Mormon fundamentalist that takes a very holistic view of Mormonism rather than seeing the gospel in the restoration is being divided up in between the New and Old Testaments. He tends to look at it as a whole. Now, the outgrowth of having this point of view, is that Joshua and his family practice Mormonism in conjunction with holding many ancient Jewish Traditions, including so, Bring the feast days as it's outlined in the Old Testament. We cover that as well as touch on other subjects such as America, being a continuation of the story of the House of Israel. That's next on this edition of the Mormon Renegade podcast. So, I just want to take a moment to thank you. The Listener, when I started this podcast I wasn't sure if anyone would really listen.

0:52 Now to my surprise, this thing has taken on a life of its own and that's all due to you the listener, spending your time here with me, and it means a great deal to me now, as a husband and father, I'm keenly aware of how important time is. It feels like there's just never enough of it. So when you are spending your time here, listening to this podcast, I feel a responsibility to never waste your time in that Spirit as this podcast has grown. I feel like I need to do you the listener. This, I want to continue to produce good content and upgrade the audio quality that takes better equipment and better software and that all takes money. Now, I've tried to advertise, but you'd be surprised. There's not a lot of people want to advertise on a Mormon fundamentalist podcast. I know surprising right?

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2:25 Your listing to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Well Josh, I can't appreciate you enough being here, man. I know you're busy, you're you got a family, a job. So the fact you may time here man, I really, really appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure I've been looking forward to it for I think you asked me like more than a month ago. Yeah, it's been about. It's been about six to eight weeks if I'm not mistaken. So real quick, we're you raised in fundamentalism re always a Fundamentalist Yes or no? The answer is formal.

3:06 Answer is no definitely not raising fundamentalism as raised in the LDS church you know I don't know how many generations back my family goes but I have people on both my mother and father's side. You know that were on in the handcart companies among and Willie handcart company even on both sides. So as early as early as it goes, But I had a father who was a scriptorium and loved loved the scriptures and he did his best to kind of instill that in his children. When I was a child and he would he would just go on and on sometimes we would have our family home evenings or just you know, family scripture study and we didn't do it. Faithfully all the time.

3:59 But but he did his best and but he when he got going, he would just go for hours sometimes like he could go for hours and it was, it was painful as a child, a lot of times except for the times when he would turn it around and he would say ask me questions and then that was fun. And then you go for hours that way too and we just ask him questions and he would talk about the gospel. And he was all he was very faithful Latter-Day Saint and was on had many callings and was on the High Council when he died but he he loved everything about the gospel and we had conversations that as I got older. You know, when I Was preparing to go on a mission and after I'd come back from a mission and we we talked about kind of the deeper things so to speak.

4:56 About polygamy about consecration about kind of controversial things in church history about Adam God. He told me about his experience when he was a teenager he went out he and a cousin of his went out into the woods and just like, camped out for three or four days and they were fasting and trying to figure out The testimonies and where they fit in and the gospel and stuff. And, and his cousin brought along a copy of Volume 15, I believe, of the millennial or of the millennial star. Yep.

5:38 Yep. And anyway, they read that and that was all I opening and And so, we talked about that and he told me actually that there's, I'm the oldest of seven siblings. Oh wow. Seven children but like he told me he's like, okay. You're a lot of your brothers and sisters like there. I've raised him in the church, you know? And, and they're very churched and I can't talk to them about these things. So, but anyway, the so there was always that that kind of awareness that there. More things to believe about the gospel than the standard presentation in Sunday school and then I'll come from your dad. It was all for my dad.

6:27 That's awesome. So why is it you think that you the that your dad was able to recognize that? What was it about you? Where you kind of Clone to those things and maybe your siblings didn't? Oh, I don't know. That's a good question. Hey but why are people interested in the things they're interested in, okay? We don't even understand ourselves. Sometimes take why we are Why we have the proclivities that we do but I did and man so that was that was kind of a special thing that my dad and I had those you talking about the gospel. So at what point?

7:07 Because so it sounds like your dad's like quasi fundamentalist. Then would that be a fair? A fair statement in the sense of he held to some of those doctrines but was very much in support of the current leadership within the old. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean he talked to me about, he went to BYU and got a degree in paleontology, and but he while he was there at BYU there was a I don't remember the name of the shop. There's like a print shop, neighboring BYU campus and he would go and, and talk to the owner.

7:48 And I don't remember his name, but the owner was a Fundamentalist. Just polygamist and my dad would go and just talk with him and he, and he would like, show my dad, all these cool documents that he had copies of on, my dad had like, boxes full of these historical, Mormon documents. That's so cool. And And seat. So he just stayed all that stuff up and yet just remained. Faithful in the church and I don't know, he just wasn't really bothered, I guess. I like he's like yeah, the church doesn't talk about the stuff and the church has changed some things and I even disagree with some of the changes. But but I'm but I have the knowledge myself, I guess.

8:33 And, and I am accountable to myself and they're accountable to that for their actions and and Doing good wherever I am. And I don't think that's at all a sketchy place to be so to speak. I think that, at least in my time in the LDS church 20-plus years, a lot of the old-timers, I talk to her that way, right? They had they knew about it, right? But it didn't, it didn't affect their their participation in the LDS church, which I think is a complete. Completely valid way to go and I would dare to say that there's probably quite a few folks out there. So at what point do you begin to look and say, okay, something's rye, and you feel like you need to go and become a fundamental. Yeah, that's a good question.

9:26 I probably never would have left the church. In fact I still feel like I didn't leave the church. Like they just they kicked me out. Yeah. Right. and I have a, Yeah. I mean I know people who feel that way as I can, I never left the church. They left me, you know, that kind of right. So it was. Yeah I mean it really it really was when I became cleanest. Okay. So and that and even then actually, it was really funny. I listened to your story and I we have a lot of things in common actually, so I could give you a little story about that. I just absolutely if you're up for it. Yeah.

10:07 So I was in, I was in Tooele And we just, I just got out of graduate school. I'm a chemist by training. So in Tooele and my wife, Charlotte had a an online friend. They met on a forum about like natural birth, okay? And and stuff like that. So then eventually they met in person. Over raw milk. So Melissa, had a cow and she had, and she would sell raw milk, you know, as quote pet food. Right?

10:52 Nice. And so she had all this pet food that was going to go bad because she'd gotten more than people wanted and she put out a message on this forum saying come and get this pet food you know? And so Charlotte did and and Melissa lived in erda which is just a few miles down the road from Thule. So they were friends for a number of years and Melissa had a had, a really bad marriage and, and which eventually fell apart. His actually her second marriage. So, her first marriage was no good either, and leading up to leading up to this, though. My wife and I had felt like we need to prepare to have someone live with us and we had had a lot of strong promptings in that direction, you know, we had We had kind of gone our house ready with guest bedrooms and furnish them even though there was no we didn't really have guessed that often or anything like that. We had gotten seven years food storage and all those things. And we thought you know probably like one of my brother's is going to like lose his job and his family is going to have to come live with us or something like that. Okay.

12:16 And then at the same time we didn't know this till later but Sir, she felt kind of the opposite, like she felt like she is going to be moving leaving. She should be eating down her food storage. And, you know, having these these kind of conflicting or not conflicting to each of us. But compared to one another, these are kind of a kind of getting opposite instructions right later on, we kind of compared this to Israel and Joseph, okay, you know. Yeah. Like Joseph is told to get the food storage and prepare for the famine and Israel is told to go to Egypt, right? So so anyway things come to a head with Melissa's bad marriage and she's actually kicked out along with her children from a previous marriage and and she basically has nowhere to go she calls Charlotte and says you know asks actually she did not ask anything.

13:20 She was just telling Charlotte about her predicament. Okay. And then Charlotte doesn't say anything. Charlotte kind of hangs up the phone, you know. And then asks me says, hey Melissa needs a place to stay. Do you think she could come stay with us? And when Charlotte says that I want multiples, I have an audible voice that says Melissa is coming to be your wife. Let's go. Coming to your house to be your way. Yeah and I knew yes and I don't I don't express that at all. Anyway, I just I just say no because you're allergic, I say to Charlotte that would be fine, right?

14:06 And we've got place and and her kids can, you know, their it's close enough that they can just commute to school and stuff and Erica and then I'm getting like these roof kind of repeated promptings. And this is craziness like Charles and I have talked about plural marriage before. Like very little, it always brings up negative emotions, you know, but so I'm like Lord, this is no way. This is going to happen, like, I and and I but at the same time I said, but I will do whatever you want me to.

14:48 Like if I'm convinced that you want me to do something, I will Do it, but I'm laying down condition here. Like it has to be Charlotte's idea, right? Yo, dude. Yeah. No, absolutely action. Totally identified. A. And so, it's that, I say nothing and listen, or kids move in and it's, you know, weeks go by. And I did not know, but Charlotte at the same time with like she was getting pounded with spiritual. His Revelations saying that Melissa was supposed to be my wife to, and, and she's really confused.

15:29 Why I'm not saying anything. You know, when it's like so obvious to her, like this is what's supposed to happen. And so, the very the very, very first time we even talked about the subject. It's evening, like, we're getting ready for bed and Charlotte says, this is her opening line. So are you going to marry Melissa? You know, like I can't like there's been no preparation like this. Just out of the blue. Dude, I can totally relate to that. For my story, you know, when Ambrose, like, would you ever think about taking Brenda's another wife? I'm like, you know, that voice from that Old show, you know, lost in space with the robot danger. Danger Will Robinson or you know, Admiral Ackbar, it's a trap so-so Yeah, no, I totally serious. Yeah.

16:26 I mean there was a There was kind of a panicked, instant, and then a calm. And then I said, and then my answer was, I'm like, well, okay, like the cats out of the bag now or whatever. So my answer was to your question. Are you going to marry Melissa? My answer was, I don't know and and then her immediate response was. You don't know how could, how do you not know? I know and I said well she has to say yes. Right. So I don't know because it depends on her. Right? That's what I was thinking. So what's going on with Melissa? This time.

17:08 Nothing. Okay. Yeah. And later, so later on so a few days go by and Charlotte's like like well, you gotta pick what are you going to do, you got, you got to approach Melissa somehow and so, but Melissa's got nothing, she does not feel that way at all. And so I eventually a few days later and I approached her and have literally the most awkward conversation of my entire life and my wives like to make fun of me and talk about and tell this story. And I'm not going to repeat it now because it's it's too embarrassing. But anyway it you can imagine it's quite awkward and so he's maybe I'll have them on the same to see Melissa, Melissa, I try to have this and it does not go.

17:58 Well, as far as I'm concerned, but she doesn't like, slap me or anything. It doesn't really plus doesn't leave the room screaming, but she says, like in her mind there's like, simultaneously like this one. You doing, does Charlotte know what is going on? And also the psych a very peaceful like just hold your tongue think about this and and and don't do anything rash have the same time, you know? And so so we end up, I start talking about polygamy but it's not, she's not really.

18:40 I could tell that she's not Been prepared. You know, she's not feeling the same way so we end up talking about knitting or something, you know, and then I leave. So later, she goes to, she goes, she like, I need to go to Charlotte and like Make sure the Charlotte knows that her husband is like a mirage me, right? This is not appropriate or whatever or potentially not appropriate anyway so but anyway it works out eventually and Melissa feels like it was good that she wasn't. That she wasn't thinking about marrying me, because in her mind that kept her intentions pure, because she was not like lusting after someone else's husband or something like Rye in any of it. So eventually, you know, very shortly thereafter you, and Melissa receives her own manifestations, plural, and, and and the rest is kind of History, you know, there's some things that we anyway we that we haven't fully talked about, I don't intend to hear but we know maybe yeah, whatever you're comfortable with bro.

20:06 Anyway, we get married. We'll see. Joins a family and then there's all sorts of all hell breaks loose. Oh, yeah, her her grown children have problems with it. Obviously, and a lot of that is because they've been raised in the church and raised by their mother. Who actually this is a funny story. I'll tell. Okay. So, About this time. This is this is a this is like during the rise of Denver Snuffer, okay? And and which we follow pretty closely and we're involved in a lot of the fellowships and stuff that kind of cropped up around that this is anyway, so 2008-2009 is that right? Or is that will ya somewhere around there? Okay, one of the things that of course Denver has taught not initially but later on is teaching kind of evolved to basically say that polygamy, or at least polygamy as As we most normally think of it was like an invention of Brigham Young, mmm, right.

21:20 And that section 132 is probably fabricated or at least partially fabricated. And so before this whole thing happened with Melissa being kicked out of her house by her soon-to-be, ex-husband, Melissa and Charlotte were in Melissa's kitchen talking. About like problems with the church and stuff and just like, kind of wondering where they need, where they were going to go and what they're going to do and whatever. But they actually like high-fived each other in their kitchen. They tell the story they high-five, you like, at least we will never gonna have to do polygamy. Like, yeah, that's great. So, super funny we kind of joke.

22:06 Sometimes, if we ever like wrote a book, about our story that the opening line would be, there were Never two women more opposed, right? Yeah, wow, so wow. So we're you already kind of on your way out the door as far as the church goes, then by the time Melissa joins your family. No, not at all. Not at all. So you keep going to the LDS church looting. Yeah, I get the same thing. Yeah, get it 100%. So we we kept going actually very shortly. well, I mentioned there was, there was kind of problems with Melissa's children like she had taught them And about the negative aspects of gloomy and had been very critical of people in their Ward boundaries or in their school at least who were known to be fundamentalists and she just had nothing good to say about those people and Chic like regrets that now, you know, right.

23:09 But her children had been kind of raised with that. So anyway, So there was there was there was a lot of friction once things came out with her teenage children. So we decided what would be best is to just separate the families and she could just stay in Tooele because I was closer to Gerda where her kids were going to school still and Charlotte would move to Oran which is where I grew up and where my dad's house It was and he had just passed away not too long ago and so house was available. Okay, my brother and his family were living there. So, so we kind of moved in.

23:57 We kind of had the downstairs and my brother had the upstairs. Okay, how we did that for a long time for a few for a long time, a few years and then, and I'm horrible with dates. So, you're good. Few years and then, And then we were we were still going to the LDS church generally though what would happen is so I would go back and forth between Tooele and Orem, right? And so that was kind of a lot of driving, but but I would end up in Orem on the weekend. So I just go to church in Orem, the war that I grew up in with Charlotte and sometimes not always, but a lot of times like, Would come down for the church with us to and and we would just sit together and I get the same thing, the bench?

24:54 Yep. Yep. I did the same thing. Dude, in fact, I've never shared this story on the podcast before I will now, but so not only. Am I going to the LDS church? I'm Elders. Quorum president? Yeah, I was the, I was the ward clerk. Okay? And you know, In the young men's presidency. Yeah. Well and Not because of anything. I did I don't want to make it seem like it was something like it because it wasn't but our home teaching number started to spike. I mean, really well like up into the 90s which is just unheard of. Yeah. In the LDS church and realistically, I think it's just because they're, they were a good group of Brethren, right?

25:38 They were they loved each other and they took care of each other. And that's what I attribute that to. Yeah. But it gets so good that they call an area seventy down to. Come talk to me to find out what Doing my goodness to have these and I'm freaked out because at this point, I am two years into living plural, marriage, going to the LDS church, going to the temple. And what we do is we'd all go to the temple together. I mean, we'd sit on the same bench together. So the 70 comes in and I'll never forget this Joshua, I'm sitting down, and I'm like, he's gonna see through me, he's gonna see through me. This thing's, we're gonna blow this thing up right now. Going to unravel and it's in some ways.

26:18 I was Kind of hoping for that because I was sick of living and be relief. Yeah, I'm sick of living in the shadow so to speak, right? Yeah. And so he comes in and he talks with me and he's like, what are you doing different? And I'm like, I'm not doing anything different. I think it's just a good group of Brethren and he just sits back in his chair and he never stops walking eyes with me. I'm like, I'm done. I'm done. Here comes, here, comes and 54, you know, and he just looks at me says I feel inspired to tell you, brother Sanders, whatever you're doing in your personal life, keep doing that. And I was like, oh, you have no idea what what you just said, but I found it. I found it fascinating, right? And they never did.

27:02 Find out. I had one old guy that approached me a guy, had a lot of respect for and he caught me in the John of all places. Yeah. And I'm just getting, I'm just walking out and he's walking in and he kind of grabs me by my shoulders and kind of puts me back in. I'm like, what, what the hell is going on here? And he just looks at me and he goes, I know what's going on. And as I'm just gonna leave it at that and you just kind of pass my shoulders and walks out. And this guy had been a bishop a stake president and he saw through it all he's like, I know what's going on and I was like, well wait a second, you know, I later talked to him a few months later about it and a church barbecue kind of off by herself.

27:50 So I'm like, why haven't you told anybody? And he said, if I tell anyone, I have to wrestle with, Questions, I'm not ready to wrestle with because when you teach, when you give talks I feel the spirit. And if you still have the spirit while doing this, he's like I'm I'm at a loss and I'm not ready to wrestle with these questions and so, yeah. No. I can totally identify with with that, with, with a lot of what you said, they're interesting. So yeah, end up. When does, when does this finally all come out? Yeah, your final. Well, it was, it was like a Savage her. Yeah. It was like a year and a half. Okay, 18 months, give or take. I said, I'm bad with dates.

28:33 But, yeah, that we were just attending church together and, you know, I was getting callings and Charlotte was getting callings to, you know, she was the choir pianist and relief society teacher. Melissa didn't have any callings, because she She was into Willa. But she would have gotten Comics probably so and it's funny you said talk about that old guy there was it was one fellow in the ward. Who at one point what it was getting close to. The end came to my wife. Charlotte and just like without like not saying anything else. Just said you're a brave woman. Wow.

29:17 And like, and I like, was he an older Feller? Yeah. Yeah, I think they know where you live. You know, it's like, kind of like giving her this thumbs up. I like it was. Anyway, so we were getting to the point where like he was the the drama with extended family members mostly with, Melissa's kids, you know, Melissa's family, that had that had finally kind of calmed down. And so then we, then we felt strong enough capable enough Tough to kind of start telling Charlotte family, and my family as well, and kind of come out of the closet, so to speak. I guess you could say.

30:02 That's that's a big step, dude. Yeah. So anyway, we went to. It was actually Thanksgiving. We're at Charlotte's parents house and we told them and it went pretty well. And we also, we also told them, he said, you know, We have plans to tell everyone else that including the bishop like we're going to tell the bishop but we would like to tell them like on our timetable like it's it's too much to just on your we don't want we don't want to rip the Band-Aid off. I do so to speak. So he agreed to that, my father-in-law but he just got an itchy trigger finger and he's actually friends like Long friends with our Bishop in Orem so he just he actually didn't tell but he said, you need to talk, you know, part of the problem was to I'll say this too, is my oldest daughter was turning eight, she was getting ready to be.

31:04 Baptized God she and my father-in-law was worried that that she was going to be baptized by a wicked man. You know I got I didn't didn't and wanted to figure out some way of keeping his promise while also protecting his grandchild. Yeah. So so he's told something vague to the bishop like Your your your ward clerk has like some worthiness problems or something like that. You need it talk to him about my didn't say what it was, you know. So but then anyway, but I think he called back again and told him no, these a polygamous. So yeah, just to want to make sure that I wouldn't be able to wiggle out of it or some. Sure, sure.

31:49 So, anyway, that actually cause some problems with our relationship with my in-laws for number of years, but things have actually smooth out considerably and they're very Supportive and all that. Now, and part of it, actually, I'm going to take a little detour here, part of it is I mean, there's I think there's a lot of there's a lot of worry because when you hear that someone's becoming fundamentalist or polygamist or whatever, like the first thing that comes into your mind is Warren Jeffs. Yeah. All of the craziness, you know, cultish kind of behaviors. Also, he had a sister who like did crazy things too. Like abandoned her her children to go become a plural wife because she was Inst and then that marriage just like was awful and fell apart.

32:47 And then she like married like just loses like went from like man-to-man and like her family was and her life and her family were just in tatters, in tatters. Yeah and so he saw nothing but bad fruit from this. So I don't really blame him, you know, but now over time they've seen that. Actually we are quite stable and and even more stable than His other children, right? Who we were talking, before we started recording, have actually every single Mike. My wife, Charlotte, she's the only one of their children that's Mormon, but that is even religious, the others are atheists, right?

33:28 Been totally reject everything. And so, but that happened after we after it was known that we were polygamists. So for a while, we were the least favorite, but now we are the now you're the most favorite that. You chill though. Absolutely 100% sauce. I don't know. No, that's good stuff. I so you have to go through the Bishop's Court and all that. Yeah, so I went to the High Council, right? Because I was, no, because it would be some holder and my wives. They were they both had a court separately. But with just the bishopric and we all attended Each other's trials for the High Council.

34:12 I mean, there's enough, there's nothing really to argue like they know they have, they have no authority to make a decision. The decision is already made. Yeah, this is guarantee automatic excommunication. So, so there wasn't anything to it was no defense at trial in name. Only correct. Yeah, so it was a, it was a formality. And so we actually brought Listen made had most make a bunch of brownies. Nice. And we brought some milk and napkins and cups and we serve Refreshments at the not the high counsel at the trial and it was cordial. They basically asked questions like, where's very honest and said, you know, this was what we it there are kind of some like you mentioned with that fellow in your ward.

34:59 Like, there's like this, dissonance because like, this is such a great family and they do so well in R callings. And we did, we feel the spirit when they talk in sacrum meeting and we felt inspired to give them these colleagues in the church. Why when they were Wicked supposedly, right? Yeah. And so, you know, and so I kind of just like reassured them about all of that to I like like you were absolutely like don't doubt your inspiration to call me to be the ward Clerk or the Rio man presidency, like those were actually inspired like I don't you don't want you to I doubt any of that and, you know, they asked how Well, I don't want to get into all those details I guess. But you know why I think this is okay and you know when the church currently doesn't do it.

35:47 And I we talked a little bit about church history and just about my our own Revelation and and you know said we're just this is just what were willing to do. You know? And they asked how one guy asks, how are you like supporting two families? I can't even believe it. And like I told him, like I've been blessed with actually actually like Around the time when listen showed up, I actually got a different job that like, was a significant pay raise. And so that's kind of like, not what they're expecting to hear either, you know, that right, blessings, pour it out, but it was, it was good. And my Bishop came to and he was very supportive to actually he's his hands are also tied, you know, but sure he came, he came to the trial at the stake center and was just They're just observing he wasn't participating, you know? And when they asked us to go out of the room while they deliberate, like he came out and just talk to us to and stuff anyway.

36:50 So, when when I talk to my Bishop first and I told him the story, he's like, he's like well, I actually, I actually don't doubt your testimony about about what happened and he said, and maybe he's as a maybe Is true. Maybe you really were asked to do that, but this is still going to be consequences, you know? It shows some spiritual maturity on his part. Oh absolutely, right. I mean, because I think so often is as well as LDS people we can we can get correlated pretty easy, right? Yeah. And good for him for being able to think on his feet. So to speak in that in that moment. Yeah.

37:36 So he was a very friendly and very Yeah, supportive. I would say and he even for example, You know, I got my experimentation letter from the stake but he's the one who gave the letters to my wives, but he told Charlotte, he said, I still want you to be the choir pianist. Wow. And, and you can still go, like, visiting teaching. Wow, took her took her out, and you off as a Relief Society, teacher true, but said, you can still play the piano in our meetings and stuff. And, and for a while, And then, so even after we were excommunicated, we just kept going to LDS meetings.

38:24 Wow. And we were just not altogether anything or no, not really. It was a little still, no one, no one really knew. I mean, the bishop kept it to himself, I think pretty well we were kind of worried that word would get around or we were we thought they might like you know, over the pulpit like You know, warning, I tell everyone about us but they didn't that was never done. So, so we kept going for a while and of course, one of the stipulations is that you were not allowed to have callings generally although Charlotte was still a Pianist and you know what, a lot not allowed to say prayers or make comments in class or whatever and also, we're not allowed to partake of their Sacrament. Gotcha.

39:14 So and I actually am totally fine with that. I know some people are like I know people who have been excommunicated who are offended by that but to me, it's like that's their yeah, like, they are in charge of their Sacrament. Yeah. And that's their stewardship and that's not an abuse of their power. That's just their prerogative, right? But at the same time, it is also my stewardship and prerogative to be in charge of my family. Yep. And so so what we would do is actually we would we just bring our own sacrament Oh, and like, when they were eating their bread, like, my family on our little bench like.we, would eat our breath.

39:54 But we did take their bread, we would say, we decline it, but we just eat our bread. While they were eating their bread and we would have our, we would have, we would have our homemade wine while they were having their right, their water. And we did that for a lot of times. And that's actually what got us was actually what they kicked us out for. So that's at some point. I don't remember how many my actually is really funny. Let me, let me back up a little bit. Sure, you tie my dad back into this because not only was my dad interested in Mormonism and the restoration of the gospel and all those things. But he was also Lover of Israel and of and if you asked him which of the standard Works was his favorite. He would, he would without question, see the Old Testament. Okay.

40:50 Which is kind of an unusual thing because for a lot of people Old Testaments like this boring stuff of. So and so begat. So, and so, and death penalties for this and that and the other. And anyway, but he loved the symbolism and the meaning, and the foundational stuff and the Promises and Covenants the prophecies which the Old Testament is just full of like everything everything. The rest of the the cannon is really Rests upon the foundation of the Old Testament. You're 100% correct. Some of my favorite times I can remember I worked out east for a while, back east on the eastern shore of Maryland, not a good buddy, whose dad was a rabbi. And I would talk to him for hours. And I've often said, in every LDS Ward they have to happen. These are your rabbit.

41:40 There needs to be a rabbi because there is so much oral tradition. Oh, That that we don't have and you can't really understand where Jesus comes from, so to speak, or where the Book of Mormon comes from unless you have a healthy understanding of the Old Testament, and Judaism. Yeah, as a whole, absolutely not. I mean, I agree. You can't get that. You can't have a. Yeah. Anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt. No, that's great. We're I want to go there eventually? Yeah, that's yeah. So when he was BYU student, he went to Israel on a semester abroad. And unfortunately, his their stay was cut short, because they were in Israel in Jerusalem.

42:32 When the Yom Kippur War broke out, the seven-day more or 16 work. No, the, the Six-Day War in the Yom Kippur War were different and I don't remember the timing, okay? But anyway, they were they were there and they had to like they got the last flight out, you know. No France or whatever. But my aunt she reports that when my dad came back from that, but they were there for a few weeks or something. At least, she says, when he came back, that he was the most Jewish, Mormon, she'd ever met? I didn't even know that was a thing and he was just like, on fire with you with a love of the Testament, and of Israel, and all the symbolism and stuff there. And so.

43:23 So, he at some point, like, I don't know when this started but in my childhood memory, growing up like we would, we would celebrate Passover every year. Okay? And now I, and I've continued that since since So my dad, like lay this foundation, and I feel like I've built upon it. And one of the things that that I built upon it is that we just have wine instead of grape juice, right? So, for my growing up all the time, like we would have, we have grape juice for the Passover. You're supposed to have the four cups, right? Right. And this is there's a lot of connections to the Last Supper, of course, right with Passover and the Seder, actually, interesting that The account in the New Testament of the Last Supper has many elements of the modern Jewish Seder. But the New Testament is the oldest record of this ordered meal connected to pass over like the oldest sources of the Jewish.

44:37 Seder are Christian done documents. Wow. So so there's some beat connections there and and there are some Scholars who like it was thought for a long time and it still is thought by some people that like kind of Christians took this Jewish thing and kind of like appropriated it to you know, to put Messianic symbolism into it but historically, it may actually be the reverse. It may be that the Jews actually borrowed from the Christians and And kind of scrub some of the Messianic elements out of it, right?

45:19 Anyway, regardless, sweet, we had my dad would kind of call this grape juice of wine, you know, with a wink and and but at some point, you know, I'm reading the scriptures as I'm older and then my dad dies and I'm reading the scriptures in the Doctrine and Covenants section 89 and section 27 and all through the Old Testament to like it talks like I just like, it says wine of your own make, right? And and I know that there are people who will say you know well that wine was actually grape juice but it's like well do you know when grapes are ripe like October Right, September, maybe and do you know when the Passover was like, that's in April, and there's no pasteurization and no Refrigeration in Jesus day. So that ain't grape juice, you know, six months later, that they're right there that they've preserved as grape juice. Like, they preserve it by fermenting it? Yep.

46:24 So anyway, so I so I, when my dad dies, And my siblings are like are we going? They're asking me now because I'm the oldest. Are we going to have pass over again this year? And I said, yeah I guess we are I guess I'm in charge and so but I want to I want to do what the scriptures say and make wine. And I've never done this before and so. Anyway but we start because of Passover start making our own line. so, Look at how to read every one thing. Yep. That's why they're there at scriptures here.

47:05 So section 89. Look at this again, marks all over the place. Yeah, sorry I marked my scriptures. Probably look like coloring book. No, this is a section, 89 verse 5. It's talking about wine and it says, you know, it says it's not good to just imbibe for recreation or whatever supposedly but it's when you assemble your All together to offer up your sacraments and is sacraments is plural. Yeah, so The meaning of the word Sacrament, it'll give you look it up in the dictionary, is actually closer to what the LDS term for ordinances would be a Sacrament is are these ceremonies?

47:55 I think we're dry, sacred Rite or ceremony. That's right. So so I noticed that I'm like, well, I mean, that makes sense, because Jesus first miracle is turning water into wine at a wedding, which is a Sacrament. And, you know, we Passover is a Sacrament and we have the Lord's. We know what we call. The sacrament is actually the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. Yep, that's the more full name. We just kind of abbreviate it to Sacramento. We call the other things ordinances. But other Christians would call those baptism and ordination and baby blessings or christenings like we would they would call all those things sacraments.

48:36 So I'm like, so this is so, so the Passover is a perfectly, the Lord's Supper is one the Passover Over in my mind would be another appropriate time to have wine of your own make anyway. So we started that and then when we're excommunicated, and like, said we're bringing our own, this is all to tell this funny story. It was quite a, quite a, no, this is good. It's like a wind up here, but so we've been having our own Sacrament once once, once we were denied the LDS segment, then we just have our own at home or in sacrum eating, you know, we just would bring a water bottle. Actually, this is another kind of funny story to I guess, is we actually include it. We don't want to be breaking any of their rules, right? You want to be respectful?

49:21 Absolutely. So, you know the church handbook of instructions has been leaked more than one, so we scoured through that and there's actually at least at the time, there is no prohibition, on alcoholic beverages in LDS buildings. So like Okay, so, What there is a Prohibition against is red or staining liquids because they're worried about the carpet, right? Yeah. So so we made white wine, okay? So that we wouldn't be you know running up against that issue and so we had white wine, you know in a water bottle and we would all just take sips of it or whatever. And but anyway, so one time though the my near the deacons bring, the tray of water to us and we just always refused, you know?

50:12 But my, my youngest daughter at the time she like, says, in a louder voice than I would like would have liked her to use. I don't want water. I want wine. Ha ha ha. Hey, we got a look around at that, I don't know. I don't know who heard that, but I don't know how they couldn't have heard it immediately. You see the Bishops eyebrows raised a little bit and we're kind of towards the back. You and? But anyway, at some point at some point, but they they didn't know any, so they didn't know anything about the wine. Right? Although we did have it, but at some point we're gets to, I don't know who, but I get a call from the stake President says he wants me to come to his office.

51:06 And I'm a little bit annoyed at that because I'm not a member of his church anymore. So, he can't really doesn't add any authority over me anymore. At this point. You think anything would come down from the bishop, right? Because that's where you're at. So, to speak. Exactly. So he calls and I say, Okay, okay, so I come and he, he basically asked me if we are having Sacrament in their Chapel, you know, like and it's, it's almost. So, it's so ridiculous. It's like, are you eating Are you eating bread like while we're eating bread, right? We don't approve.

51:47 You eating bread while we're eating bread and I'm like Yeah, yeah. We're that's we're doing that either you having he. I think he asked her for having no. This is what he asked. He said, are you having your own bread and water during the sacrament? And I said no, we're having Bread and Wine but ha ha. And anyway so we got we got shortly after that and then we had some words and and I said if you want to talk to me again, you can To my house. Like a normal person, not right man that I come into your office. So shortly after that we got letters from kirton mcconkie, you know, who her real power behind the LDS church. Yeah, they're they're lawyers.

52:38 Yeah, that's right. That's the church's Law. Firm telling the three of us adults adults that we're not allowed on Church property on any any property owned or controlled by the church. anywhere in the world and My wife Charlotte actually wrote a letter back to them and said well tell us give us a list of all the properties that you own so that we can avoid them. Did they furnish it? No, she said otherwise otherwise, we will disregard this and consider and consider that you intended for us only to stop attending our Ward, right? Because you can't even know LDS church property you know when you Tha in Utah that it's as a land surveyor, who does records research, it's all over right?

53:36 And then everything yeah or parts of everything. I don't know. Yeah. So basically we I mean we just they said yeah and there's other kind of mean things like you're welcome to send your children without you, it's like yeah. Like that's going to happen, you know? And you're like you can start coming back. Once you have like a Psychiatric evaluation and take your medication. Like that's basically what the letter said. So it was kind of nasty you know when when I left the LDS church in 2019 because after after my my plural marriage broke up and dissolve, I just thought I'll just go back to the LDS church.

54:21 I'll kind of compartmentalize all this and yeah, won't creeped out anymore and I'll be fine. Which it doesn't do. I mean you can try maybe some people are successful at it, but once I knew I knew I knew I had tasted of that fruit. So does he? And anyway, so I thought, well, I'll just go back and and, and, you know, shut up and stay in the back and do whatever they ask me to and it'll all be cool. But when I left in 2019, I learned really quick that those who leave for reasons other than just, I don't believe anymore.

55:04 if you believe too much so to speak, you're the worst kind of apostate because you bring forward very valid facts. Yeah. And you don't, normally those arguments are very well thought out very well documented, and it creates a massive amount of problems. And so when you leave for wanting to practice the fullness of the Gospel, so to speak and in whatever way that looks, whether that's plural marriage, whether that's a full Temple endowment, whatever it is, You know, become a bigger problem than someone who just says. I'm not sure I believe in God anymore. Yeah.

55:47 Because with that stance of, there's more out here, we're not doing it creates a massive amount of questioning and problems that works its way. All the way up into the upper building of the Church Headquarters. Yeah. Right. And so it doesn't surprise me. It went the way it did. Now when So you did go back to the LDS church. Yeah. So what kind of I mean, was it just this nying in the back of your mind or was there a know? What do you like? Okay, that's enough. I can't take this anymore. It was very much a moment but it had been a slow build up. So let me go back to when everything fell apart. I've always said plural marriage brought me the most Exquisite joy and the most Exquisite pain when it finished. Yeah.

56:37 When it ended I have no doubt and I had so before I joined the church there was only a couple things. I was really good, at one was playing football in the other was drinking. I mean I was I was super good. I still think Jack angles, owes me some some, some props and maybe even a little stock options because I know I did my share be sure to spread the good word. Yeah, sure gospel exact angles and I didn't, I didn't drink at all in the whole time. I was in the LDS church after I converted and All the way up through practicing plural, marriage until it fell apart and then the knife got week, right?

57:20 Yeah. And I never want to, I never wanted to mourn the loss of my second wife. When she left too much in front of Amber. My yeah, my first wife because I never wanted her to think she wasn't enough, right? And she knew I was hurting, but I was trying to put on a table it On it being, right? And I'm on this acreage out where we were living, where all this had taken place and it was just painful memory. After paying I, there was nothing. I could look at that. Had not seemed to have been touched by this experience, right? And so forget, solid couple months.

58:01 I was like, I've got to kill this pain. There's really no one to talk to you. I was on my own, I didn't, you know, so I just kind of crawled back into a bottle and I remember one night Amber Came out. And she, she saw me piss and moan and basically a little too much booze and I'm like, this is the solutions to yo, man. I was like, truth serum and look, what be honest, I'm probably God's most petulant child to begin with, right? And so she came out, she's like, yeah. Okay, I'm like I'm never doing this again. This is stupid. Why would I do this? This is as painful as hit myself in the crotch with a hammer here. I had right doing this ever ever again.

58:42 And I'm just going on. And she's just patiently, listening. And she's like, are you finished? And I'm like, I think so. She's like good if we get this opportunity again, we're going to do it know that now. And then that was it amazing. But I had it in my mind, I'm forgetting all about this, right? I'm going to compartmentalize it and I'm going to go back to the LDS church, and we're just going to do our thing. It's better to have some truth than nothing at all and so that's what we did. It was shortly thereafter. I sold the place. We were living on moved to North Dakota.

59:23 Did some work out there cuz it was kind of still really slow as far as work for surveyors and development. The pipeline was, you know, crack-a-lackin' out and we had Kota yeah with stuff. So I went out there which was a healthy move. It was horrible, but it was probably healthy from a spiritual standpoint, right? Okay. Move to Utah. and, Move into this place and I get called into the elders, Quorum presidency again. and covid kicks in and I guess it would have been 20 20, I would have left because that's when covid really, really hit. So it's a catalyst for a lot of people.

1:00:04 It was so all of a sudden, I'm doing stuff at home. Yeah, there's just great. And I'm like, now, wait a second, I don't have to hedge anymore. Yeah, right, right. I've always had old Mormon books around and so we would supplement our lessons with that. Yeah. And I'm like, no, it's because the whole time we were going to church, it would great on me, right? Yeah, you know, you hear all the stuff and it was well-meaning. I'm not saying anyone who was out to why it's just what they were taught, right? But you're like, it's not the way it was think. That's not the way. It was not the way. It was death, got more full sculpture here. Did you write, you know, just constantly and so, finally, I want, um, one morning, I woke up and I was just like, I'm done. I'm dying, right?

1:00:50 I just had this real moment and look at myself in the mirror. Like, what the hell? What the hell am I doing here? We write. This is so stupid. Yeah, right. And so I just I talk to Amber and Amber's like I've been done for a long time. She's been waiting for you. Yeah, she's like we've been going through the motions and and what really set me over the edge was the latest Temple changes, right? That that really was like this is a bridge too far. We're now at the point where I believe we're starting to mock God a little bit time to pull the cord. So yeah, it was, it was a slow build-up but there was very there was a very moment, clear moment.

1:01:31 Where I'm just looking in the mirror and I'm like, if I don't get damned honest with myself right now, I'm gonna lose everything I am. Yeah, right. So, did you just your attendance and stuff? Didn't kind of fizzle out? And just know. I was always her key. I was in leadership, right? So I had to go and sit down and be like, I'm out and they're like, whoa, why are you out? And I was like, because the latest Temple changes are way too far. Well, way too far and what was their response? They were like well and I'll just kind of speak. I want to be respectful here, but one of the things, one of the changes they made recently was is the one where they change the, the order of the family? So to speak, right?

1:02:22 Yes. If you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. And I was like that and I remember they said, okay. Well, don't panic, what's let me go In research and then we'll come back and we'll talk about this and their response was, well, maybe that Covenant was getting used in a way that was abusive from husband's towards wise and I said, yes, but no doubt you wouldn't change the law of Chastity because because certain guys can't control their urges, and that blew them out of the water. They're like, I got nothing where I got nothing and I'm like, I'm done and they're like, well do you still, you know, have a testimony of the Savior I'm like, absolutely. Yeah.

1:03:06 You do you still think that rustling Nelson's a prophet of God? And I'm like, I have nothing that really tells me that he is and that was the straw that broke the camel's back, right? Yeah, that's the unforgivable. That's the unpardonable pardonable, right? That's the one where they're like, who you're questioning the guys up top. And so I just left and And I had a couple guys come over and try to you know talk me out of it, right? Like our you know what you're doing and basically I was like you don't have to argue with me. I'm going to show you some literature. You have to dissuade me that, that that's wrong. You, you look at that and then give me your rebuttal.

1:03:49 Yeah. You look at the same things. I've looked at, and when I gave that to him, I never heard from him again. And what has happened here is that I within the neighborhood, right? Is it, that was this this neighborhood? Yeah, right here, Vic, I'd become persona non grata, right? And I imagine that this podcast also had a major influence on it because let's face it. Right? The church has in strengthening church members committee, correct? Right. I've been has better eyes and ears everywhere. I've been as vocal as you can be and so I'm sure that right, you know, they're like I'm sure they're trying to figure out what to do, right? I mean one is that if they if they decide they want to drag me up and X me because you are still formerly a member formerly.

1:04:34 Yeah actually if they want to do that. I'm down with that. I mean, we can definitely do that but it draws more attention. Yeah. Then if you just leave me alone, so I'm sure that I'm sure there's a part where not attending their meetings and no, I'm not attending their meetings, I'm not attending their temples or anything like that. So, yeah. That's that's that's where we got both in sheep's clothing. They're, they're spooked. I mean, in, sometimes it's funny, right? I mean, sometimes, I probably play with it a little more than what I should just. For my own personal enjoyment, the huh, you know, my my father-in-law I think he used to think I was a wolf in sheep's clothing but just recently I had baptized my younger daughter and we invited them. They were anxious to come see it, they weren't anxious to like be A part of our religious life at all. But now, they are hungry for it anyway, but afterwards, he said something like, you know, people might think that speaking of me sick, people might think that Josh was, like, a wolf in sheep's clothing.

1:05:47 The he's like, he's like a, he's like a goat in sheep's clothing, right? Yeah, it's no problem. I Mena. Yeah, take it, where you can get it. So you so that was an improvement. So, One of the other reasons, not only do I just like you a lot, but one of the other reasons of is, I've always found your take on Mormonism. Just awesome. I told you before about, you know, when I worked back east and yeah, and, you know, I get with Joel and his dad who was a rabbi. And so I've always felt a strong Affinity towards towards, not just the Old Testament, but but the Jewish feast days As the, the, the tradition, it's within Judaism.

1:06:35 And so when I see when I see what you've done, which is really incorporate that into a lot of what you do from from keeping those feast days to, to even blowing the shofar, which was should have brought it started this whole? Yeah would have been cool I really dig it, right? Because again I don't think We can get a full painted picture of Jesus without first understanding, where Jesus comes. So, absolutely not. And so that's why I totally totally love what it is.

1:07:16 You do within your family and with the zarahemla foundation, where did you at? What point? Did you start to feel yourself? Pulled that direction? Yeah, right to start keeping those holidays again. Yeah, this is This goes right along with with my story, time-wise. So haven't I don't have to backtrack it all that when we left you, when the church finally kicked us out excommunicated us. And we had that we actually had twice. So after the second excommunication then we're kind of like well you know now what do we do? Mmm, we can have home church and we do have home church but I want a community. For the sake of my children, more than anything. So we looked around.

1:08:04 And like I said, we were involved in some of the Denver Snuffer, fellowships until that became quite hostile. And while we were looking, we also, we attended all kinds of albeit of Mormon, branches, right? Of course, we're all lbs. We went to our LDS church. We checked out the House of Aaron. We went out to the Rock, we went to the AUB. We attended the brain Christchurch Branch meetings, Nelson Naylor, you know Third Ward meetings and went to Independent fundamentalist you the krauts meetings and and basically I I wasn't really felt.

1:08:57 I didn't really feel drawn to join any of them, but I wanted to be friends with everyone and that's kind of where I'm at right now, anyways, like I don't subscribe to any particular group, but I'm friends friendly with everyone and I think that's a good place to be so anyway, but but, but the zarahemla foundation was started up around This time I can remember Snuffer was kind of his teachings, were kind of evolving and becoming less friendly towards polygamy and polygamists. These are Hamlet Foundation started by basically some folks who were in The AUB who had kind of become disenfranchised there and the care of the founding members were Robert K.

1:09:52 Rob k. Nathan dilts, Dennis Thompson, Richard Jepsen. There's a kind of the founding members. And so they had posted a thing on Facebook that Melissa found that said, everyone's welcome like in it, like even said, like, polygamists are welcome. We're like, oh somewhere, it was in Lehigh and they were meeting in Cody Browns, old house there in Lehi, Which they abandoned right after the sure, first season of Sister Wives, right when they became went under investigation. So we were meeting there and we loved it and felt right at home, you know? So to speak and like we met these other polygamist families that we had didn't really know that they existed. You know, we you the crowds, I guess, but it was really cool, and really good group of people.

1:10:51 And these people also loved the feasts to a lot of them were into Old Testament stuff and I was like wow this is really amazing. And so we attended there for quite a while at the same time I was kind of getting more into the feast. Like it mentioned, we had been raised keeping the Passover but that's really the only thing we did my dad loved the Passover. That was kind of his favorite. And really in ancient times to, that's kind of the Passover is the kind of the crowning Feast right here. Suppose the other ones are important too, but we started looking at some of the other feasts as well, right?

1:11:39 And we, and we started with, we started with, when we started adding things, we started with Perrine, which is in the Book of Esther, right? And that's the you know, the You kind of recount, the story of Israel's Deliverance no through Queen Esther while they're in Babylon and Persia. And one of the things that you do to celebrate part of the reason we did this is because we're kind of looking at our once you once you kind of leave the church, then you kind of have to reinvent everything because the church just has this whole structure for you and you just ride along with whatever they're doing. But then when you're on your own, then you have to look Everything again and decide.

1:12:23 Is this what I want to keep do I want to do? What can I do? Better, what do I want to do away with? And you know, we looked at the holidays that we were keeping and I all I haven't really felt good about Halloween for a long time. I know. Halloween's fun but there's nothing really redeeming about it. Like it's like, right Gore and right satanic stuff. Tough or like sexy promiscuous stuff, and going door to door asking for candy, like or else we're going to vandalize. You see ya? Let's good about that. So but I'm not mistaken. I believe that's the new administration's policy has basically.

1:13:10 Yeah. Sorry, no. Totally derailed, sorry. I appreciate those interjections are so, but one of the things that Done to celebrate Purim is people dress in costumes and there's a bunch of reasons for that. You know that one Esther was her identity was hidden right, okay. And also, you might be surprised to know that in all the books of scripture that we have, including the Song of Solomon, they all mention God except for one, which is Book of Esther is the only book that has it. No mention of God, there's not even His no profits, There's No Visions, no Revelations, no one even says a prayer.

1:13:56 Hmm and so and so God is also hidden you know in the Book of Esther and homens plans are hidden and and there's all these all these kind of hidden things that eventually kind of come to light. But so wearing disguises us. Our costumes is a part of the celebrations. There's that, well, we'll start doing premium, and that will kind of fill this Niche for our children, you know, so they can have Holiday where they dress up because that's fun. Yeah anyway. So and when is that Feast? It's like early late winter, early spring like February, you say, okay. I know that's not technically spring but you know like winter I guess.

1:14:39 Yeah. So so we started kind of doing things bit by bit. We're like, Let's do let's look at Hanukkah and why are we not doing? You know, Shavuot is the day of Pentecost and and why don't we start like going camping like during the Feast of Tabernacles, you know, right? And and so we start incorporating all these things and the zarahemla foundation is very supportive and all that too. And eventually though, Not long. After we started attending there Cody Browns, like we need to sell this house. So you guys are going to have to find somewhere else to meet.

1:15:19 And but we kind of we looked around the fellowship kind of looked around and and these are Hamill Foundation by the way. I'll say a little word about that. Well, let me go back to the house first, okay? Eventually we bought the house. That's long story short, it was just perfect. My family was separated or mint Willa. But Melissa's kids were growing up. They had graduating from high school and so I we're getting ready to hear in a year or so you're too too. Kind of recombine the family. So so we need a bigger place and Cody Brown's house is perfect. Plus, we want to have a place for the fellowship to keep meeting the zarahemla foundation and it's so.

1:16:03 So we ended up with Kody Brown's house and so nice, which has been a big blessing in a lot of ways. It was, it was perfect. And it's still close enough to dugway which is where I write it's long. It's a long commute but it's a long commute from Tooele as well. So anyway, there Hamlet foundation will say just a word about that is basically a non-denominational group nondenominational Mormons. And we have had people attend meetings there and give talks and come to our feasts who are from like every branch that I named that we've had people from the house of Aaron and LDS folks, and AUB, folks and Branch folks, and independent people, and people from Church of the firstborn, you know, Fred Colliers group had a number of people come from there and and just independent folks to and it's all it's all good.

1:17:11 Like the zarahemla foundation doesn't require really anything for membership. Except that like you have a testimony? That Jesus is Messiah and you accept the scriptures as you know the word of God. And and then that you're baptized but not baptized by the zarahemla foundation. But you know that, right? You've received baptism wherever that may have been and and then and then that you just voluntarily associate. You write say I am a member of the, their home Foundation or whatever. Like there's no is no dues or tithing or nice coordinations. We do have a board of Elders but again, there's no like ordination.

1:17:58 There's just like a vote To make decisions and stuff. So so that's been nice. And that's kind of opened it up so that we can without any weird pressure. Have people from all different backgrounds and Mormonism common and hopefully like gain an appreciation. I want I want people to appreciate the feasts and the Old Testament stuff more and to understand that because it adds in my view so much, Depth and richness to the gospel and what we call the gospel. Like, I say, I believe that stuff is the gospel as well, right?

1:18:41 A lot of people don't see that as the gospel, so let me ask you a question. You keep all these feast days. You which again I think is super cool. When someone would ask you the question or not, maybe I'm the only guy that's asked this question to you, why is it? You suppose, these weren't ever talked about by Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or anything like that because you get the sense that Joseph on your face. That Joseph's mission is to restore everything, right? Yeah. Why weren't these part of that restoration?

1:19:24 Yeah, yeah. That's a That's a big question that people have. And it's my mind goes in a couple different directions but mainly the main reason I would say is that the restoration was not complete there are and I think everyone agrees to this in one sense or another because certainly, we don't have the Zion right? We don't we have not built. City New Jerusalem. Yeah. Or the Earthly version that's going to meet with the Heavenly version.

1:20:09 The temple is still a temple lot in Independence. And there's all kinds of things that the scriptures prophesy and that Joseph also prophesied would be a part of the restoration that have not happened and not only Joseph, but Brigham and John Taylor like, For example, Joseph had plenty of things to say about animal sacrifice. Mhm. Where is that? Who's doing? That. No one. In other words, that that piece. Wasn't restored yet. But Joseph and John Taylor fully had that in view as as one of the necessary steps for the fullness of all things. You know, the restoration of all things that the prophets have spoken since the beginning of the world, that was necessary. So, I know some people will kind of bristle at that because I know you're Joseph restored everything including the kingdom, you know, and rolled it off his shoulders, onto the 12 and the Council of 50 in all of that. And, you know, I don't discount any of that at all. But if you just look at the scriptures and compare them, to what we are doing the scriptures, say even after the, even after the second coming.

1:21:40 Like all the nations will come to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles and if you don't you'll be cursed because after the second come right? But we don't do that, we sort of do. Now it's also the other. The other kind of direction that my mind goes is that although Joseph May not have. Formally instituted the celebration of Passover and Tabernacles there are certainly beautiful hints about those things. For example, the the tradition that we have of having General conferences in the beginning of April and the beginning of October like, that doesn't always line up.

1:22:29 But that's, that's that's basically when Passover and Tabernacles would be and that Is time when in ancient Israel. Everyone was commanded to come to the Tabernacle, or the temple, and to receive instruction and to worship and bring their offerings and all that. And have the have the priests, the priesthood, teach them. And we do that, we just don't call it Passover. And Tabernacles, we call it April Conference in October conference, you know? Okay, so there's that there's also these like hidden things, and I'm sure you're probably aware of some of them. Like the Book of Mormon coming forth on the Feast of trumpets or as a Jews, call it Rosh Hashanah or Yom teruah is the day of shouting, the day of trumpets or Rosh. Hashanah is the new year, right?

1:23:28 Okay. And this was, this was the symbolism connected to the Book of Mormon is All about new things. There's this new record on this new continent and a new dispensation. And there's an angel with a trumpet, like, we put the put them on the temples, right? With a right trumpet in his hand and this is this is intimately connected to Rosh Hashanah there. The day of the different pumps. Yeah. And it's also the day of trumpets. Also, the symbolism of. This is the beginning of the The judgments, the beginning of the judgments are like the books, the books are going to be opened until for this short space until Yom Kippur the day of atonement when the final judgment takes place now that, that that final judgments going to happen. Shortly after the second coming.

1:24:29 But also, you know, we believe as Mormons that, that this is the last dispensation and that the fullness, like, everything is going to be wrapped up here and the judgments are like we're preparing for that. So, so even though Joseph never said explicitly, like, connected The Book of Mormon and also the visitations, right? It's from the angel on specific dates to fulfill prophecy which were also, which were also all on Rosh Hashanah right every year. So he didn't, he didn't explicitly connect, that which is why, which is why I'm saying, if you don't understand the Old Testament, then you will miss a bunch of Mormonism, right?

1:25:19 Like it doesn't, it doesn't have to be explicit either. Like and even in the, in the Teachers themselves. They're there, they're not explicit either. I'll take will take the Book of Ruth, for example. I don't go over the whole story, but but part of the story is she's gleaning in boaz's fields, right? And, and so, but this, the story of Ruth is traditionally read during the time of Shavuot or the in Greek, we say Pentecost the day of Pentecost because because that is, when the grain is harvested, right? So So you don't some things don't have to be explicit if you understand what is being talked about. And you know, the same thing kind of happens in The Book of Mormon to one of the things in my my dad would he would like to point out?

1:26:19 He would say, he say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say some things about holiday, I'm not going to say what holiday it is going to see if you can guess what I'm thinking of, you know, and he'll say, you know, colored eggs and rabbits. And what do you think I'm talking about? He's yeah, he's but I never said Easter but those are like, so, intimately connected with the idea of Easter and everything that surrounds like I don't even have to mention the religious you know that the resurrection is stuff like that. We just know, right? And if I talk about mistletoe and Holly and Christmas. Yeah like yeah but and the same thing if I talk about if I talk about the Commandments and the trumpet, maybe your mind draws a blank, but if you're an Israelite, then you immediately think of Shavuot you immediately think of Pentecost. And if I say, you know, a lamb and plagues right? Then you immediately think of Passover, right? And anytime it talks about plates like we read in the Book of Revelation and talks about plagues hmm like those just match - plagues so like immediately we know that this is this is this is drawing on the symbolism of the even if even if the Book of Revelation doesn't mention Passover, which it doesn't We had the reader are

1:27:52 supposed to draw on the previous previously revealed stuff to inform us about the symbolism of what's Happening. Sure. I think you make a good a good point there when it comes to the holidays, right? I think in the west here and from are very, Western point of view. We tend to look at holidays a little differently than I think. Judaism did Absolutely, but I do find it interesting that. They kind of have a similar effect in the way that they help to make a society cohesive.

1:28:35 They do. Right. And I think that's a big, a big point that we miss with some of these holidays, not just the religious significance of some of them which are vastly important. But these, these societal holidays were times of national remembrance, yes, right? And and we can't forget At that, in the beginning of human history. The god of Israel, the god of Abraham drawing a blank, the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was a national God, right? Right. It was very nationalistic because it really only applied to Israel till that nation of people. Yeah, likewise, I think you can draw, you know, some pretty interesting Ting parallels in the sense. That Christmas does the same thing here in a lot of ways, right?

1:29:34 Yeah. For the Fourth of July that we just had right? Yeah. Beautiful. Which was a national remembrance of realistically, God's Deliverance of this people. Yeah. Amen. And and the Fourth of July always gets me because There's no way you can't look at the American founding and not understand, vitally what is happening, right? All the way back. When John Winthrop has his people on the boat and they're coming over and he wants to put these people under Covenant and does, and he gives a sermon in this Covenant that is remarkably remarkably similar to what Alma the the Elder says at the There's a baptism where he says, just because Winthrop says, we must Embrace each other and familiar Commerce. We must make each other's plight our own, and we must Delight in each other.

1:30:33 And then you look at it at that that scripture mosiah where where Alma the Elder is setting forth, the terms of baptism, are you willing to mourn with those that mourn? Are you willing to tear one of those bird bear one another's burdens and then went through up makes a prophecy. He says, if we Do these things. He said the god of Israel will Delight to dwell amongst us and they'll come a time when 100 of us will withstand a thousand of our enemies, and the world will look and say, if you're going to make a new Plantation, make it like that of New England. So he sees that that this is a continuation of the Israel of that story of Israelite tradition. Yeah, right.

1:31:22 And then you go forward a little more and you start to see that all throughout the the revolutionary period especially during during our battle for Independence. We need to call upon God, we need to rely on the protection of Divine Providence, and probably the the most that Harkens back. Is an exchange that happens between Thomas Jefferson and John Adams. They were really good Buds and you probably know the story. They were super good anyway. They were super good friends and then they had a parting of ways and then they came back together and Madison, excuse me, Adams and Jefferson start writing, letters back and forth and Adam says something that is very poignant. He cuz Adams has always been kind of how I don't want. I don't know how to say, it may be a little pessimistic at times but he tells Jefferson we kind of screwed this up. We didn't do as much as we should have. We should have put more Deuteronomy into the Constitution and Jefferson.

1:32:33 Who's in Dismissed. He's like don't worry they'll be another generation that comes along. That's saw what we were trying to do and they'll make the corrections where they need to. Yeah. And then finally when they both die you have Jefferson who dies just hours before Adams, Adams on his deathbed says, look there's Jefferson he lives and they both died on July 4th I major but it's that continual continuation of That, is that Israeli story, right? Yeah. And they understood that right down to the point that that Franklin, the first seal, the first draft of the seal was going to be the children of Israel following the pillar of fire. I've heard that.

1:33:24 Yeah, that was what it was supposed to be. So, oftentimes, I think in America because of, I'm just going to call it. Like, I see it because of the progressive influence, it has And happening for the last hundred years, we tend to look at Rome a lot as where we borrowed things that's right, or Greece. But in all actuality, if you read the founders and you study what the founders had to say, they certainly took some ideas from them but even more. So from ancient Israel and so there are times that I think in ignoring these holidays that you practice we aren't doing Justice.

1:34:05 Not only to our Our our our religious lives but we're not doing Justice to the country as a whole. Because again the idea of America is a very Israel Eccentric kind of idea. Yeah, yeah. Amen. To that. It's all that. I mean it's interesting about Deuteronomy and we should have added more Deuteronomy should added you dorami. And if you look at the book of Deuteronomy, a large portion of it is oft you could almost consider that the Israeli Constitution. Yeah. Right.

1:34:46 That's where the laws are set forth. That's where his talks about. Don't go into dead as a nation. Ba, ba ba. Under don't be a borrower, right? It lays, fourth, how Israel is supposed to function? And there's a lot of Echoes. A lot of Echoes of Deuteronomy still within the United States Constitution. I think I think the feasts are actually have it. I have a crazy Vision that the feasts could be a mechanism of uniting Mormonism. I think you're right. I don't think that's crazy at all. And, and so, in one sense, I'm, I'm glad that Joseph didn't get around to it because if he did, then all the branches would be doing it the right way, you know, according to them, they be doing the right way and the other guys are doing the wrong way.

1:35:44 And so, this is just another reason to divide. but since no one does it then no one knows what they're doing and then we can have people from the branch and the AUB, and the LDS church all come together and celebrate, Passover and all be edified and go back home to their separate Church bodies and not feel any not in. You not feel offended about what happened because they have no idea what they're doing, you know, and in, in some respects I think this is similar to what ancient Israel did I do Is exactly that idea that you said about this unifying National social identity and social cohesion, because the Twelve Tribes like they had their own land. Like they were like different nations. Almost is like, the is like the United States. Yeah, actually, I just read, we read the Declaration of Independence for with my family.

1:36:51 You know, we talked about it and the Declaration of Independence says, says, how many United States there were Cause normally we think of the United States is one thing, but it says he's, he's 13 United States and it talks about the state of Great Britain do. But you know, we have we have kind of a skewed idea, really? The intention was these are like essentially independent nations that have agreed to do a couple of things. You know, we have agreed to have a common currency and we have roads, you know, so we can facilitate commerce between the states. But States independently are able to do all the things that governments normally do. And and if you give people that freedom like I think a lot of the the problems that we have as a nation are because there's too much Federal control.

1:37:46 Is that federal government says, everyone needs to be on board with whatever it is, this kind of Taxation, this kind of social things. These welfare thing, this gay marriage thing, instead of saying the states, have all these things and you can go live in a state that suits your fancy. Instead, everyone is forced to comply with one standard and then there's just friction over that. But but if they would just back off and let the state's be independent, then we All be friends and and still have our own views about things and we could all celebrate independence day.

1:38:31 Yep, at all celebrate Thanksgiving, you know, these national holidays. Now, I think you're right in the founders definitely bore that out, right? They, they definitely have this idea that, you know, what, some states are going to try some stuff, and some other states, you know, try the exact opposite and the states to be really smart. Laboratories of Freedom or something. Like, the states that are really smart, they're going to be like, okay, what they did over there sucked except for this one thing, so let's take that. Yeah, and let's incorporate that, right? So if Massachusetts or New York or California want to go full commie, they can you that right to a certain degree. And then we can Watch the repercussions Undead, right? Let's let that happen. Let's let that happen. And then we can pick and choose, you know, what, what works, but, so they can Israel. They had each tribe have their own government, they had Elders, you know, and of their communities, and captains of 50s and hundreds of thousands, and whatever, in their own land. And, and the tribes.

1:39:33 You know, they made alliances with each other and fall towards URS with each other, and they disagreed over lots of things. But but the law said, when it comes time for Passover and Pentecost, and Tabernacles everyone needs to come to Jerusalem to celebrate and bring your offerings and remember what God has done for you. And then you go back home and you can be your own separate tribes. And I think that this is like a model for what? Could? What? Could happen with Mormonism is everyone can have their own, their own first presidency and Council and or whatever and their own priesthood and their own ordinances.

1:40:18 But we come together because we are Israelites, like, we claim to be Israelites, don't we claim to be Israelites and a lot of Hazards were totally ignorant about is Israelites stuff, right? Because we're just Protestants basically, like, right? So, but we could come together and, and B is Israelites and celebrate these feasts and be edified and then everyone goes back to their own tribes to the ALDS and to the branch and to the Nelson Naylor. And let me ask you this. What do you think it would take in order for that to happen. For some for some folks. It's not going to ever happen. Probably like the LDS church is never going to like officially, no, say yeah, we'll go along with that. But I mean, I think it's going to, I mean, that's a good question.

1:41:12 It was their animal foundations, trying, you know them, right? Send out invitations to whoever will come So, I don't know if you could, please tell me your thoughts if you have any. I honestly think it's going to take the Lord moving within all these various groups again tranches of Mormonism, right? Because fundamentalists as a whole, I think they're okay with recognizing if they belong to a group recognizing the the head of their group, right? But we tend to be very guarded because I think we've seen what Happens when, when there's too much power on top. Yeah, right.

1:41:56 And that those abuses happen, whether it's, you know, certain things going away in the LDS church, which is the most mild of the issues you experience, or you experience something like Warren Jeffs, did where it was utter tyranny of the worst sort. There is a health. There's probably a healthy worry about. Oh, absolutely. You know, Who's calling the shots, right? And and if there's one thing that I've noticed from being in fundamentalism, there's that question who has the but right, who's the man? I think it's going to take pretty much the Lord saying in somehow, somehow knock it off, knock it, knock it off, I got the button.

1:42:41 Okay. Everybody else get in the boat, right? That that sort of thing. Yeah. Is what I'm thinking, but I could be wrong. I'll never pretend to know the mind and will of God in such matters because, you know, I'm a clown with microphone. So I have some have some notes that I prepared her. I'm gonna, if you don't mind, not at all. I'm going to talk about and I think this is This ties right into what you said, the problem with Mormonism is and this actually ties in with the founding of our country as well, and and the idea is axioms.

1:43:24 So now you're a surveyor, can you can you tell, do you know what an axiom is like we talked about mathematical axioms are I'll just say, axioms are kind of these fundamental truths that are agreed upon And and which are basically seen as self-evident or accepted. And that are like the simplest kind of statements, things that can't be shown or proven or inferred from simpler Parts. Two plus two equals four, right? The V Visa, that's yes, that right, that, that sort of Bedrock foundational. That's right idea.

1:44:10 So when I think that's really important, you know there's a famous statement from Joseph Smith, this in the king Follett discourse, he said it's if we start right, it is easy to go right all the time, but if we start wrong it is a hard matter to get, right, right. So actually have the We've talked about some of that already, but when you talk a little more about axioms, I'm going to give some examples to of different systems if you don't mind, indulging, it all. So, when we have a set of set of axioms set of propositions, which we're going to build upon, we want our set of ideas to be consistent. That is, we cannot have contradictions between our Mental ideas.

1:45:00 Okay, there's one thing we want the set of axioms or fundamental ideas to be independent. That is and this is just for the sake of Simplicity, as we don't want to have axioms that depend on other axioms, okay? And then we want our set of axioms to be complete as what we won't have enough fundamental ideas that we can explain or prove or Or infer any of the situations that might arise in the system that we're talking about. Now, between the between those three perhaps, the most important is the consistency.

1:45:41 So and give you a little bit of a mathematical Theory here, it can be shown that if you have a set of axioms and there is one you might have 12 ideas and if one of them contradicts another idea, then you actually with that set of ideas, you can prove anything you want. So here's a, here's a simple, simple example of how that might go, let's, let's say that this is a fundamental Axiom. I am a fish. Okay, let's say that's true and we'll also say simultaneously that I am a fish is false, okay, so and we have a bunch of other ideas too but but we have as our building blocks.

1:46:33 We have this. This This contradiction, right? So now I'm going to use that contradiction to prove anything else I want so. So I might. So I might say, Dave, I'm going to prove, you know, logically. I'm going to logically prove that you can fly by using these two contradicting axioms. Okay? And it go like this, we will just put these together in an or statement, okay? Say I am a fish. Shhhh or you can fly is that statement true or false? Well if it's an or then we don't actually have to check if you can fly right? Because I said that one of our foundational principles. Is you have a fish.

1:47:19 So I am a fish or you can fly. Is that true? No. Well, according to our, according to our set of action could be accent. Yes. Yes, that is true. According to the principles that were laying down here for the day. This exercise, we're doing here, but then Look at the other Axiom and says, I am a fish is false there, but we said that this combined statement, I'm a fish or you can fly. Is we just determined? That was true but I am a fish part is false. Therefore you can fly, okay, okay. So of course, that's ridiculous right? But we do that but we can do that kind of thing in math.

1:48:03 If you have axioms that contradict you actually can prove anything and that is also true in other with math, things are very rigorous but the idea of axioms actually applies to governments and religion as well. So in in Geometry, you know, we have axioms like for every two points there exists, a unique line that contains them both, right? That is, that is an action. We can Prove that we just accept that. That is the case, right? Right. And for every three points, which do not lie on the same line, there is a unique plane that you obtains all three, and that's also an axiom of geometry.

1:48:45 And then we can list a bunch of other axioms that talk about what it means to be parallel and about congruence or lines and angles. And we take all these together and we can describe and derive all the properties of euclidean geometry from this set of oceans K. So that's kind of what people are familiar with when you talk about axioms. But we can talk about governments to, we can say we're going to say these are axioms. God endowed Adam with the right of dominion over all the Earth including his descendants, right? Okay. And this Divine, Rite has been passed by heredity, or coronation to the current Kings.

1:49:29 And then the next thing would be along with this divine. Right to rule comes a unique sovereignty when the king owns, all the property has two minions, right? And has all the rights. And since the then number four, since this right to rule is derived from Divine Authority, then the king is not accountable to any Earthly Authority. But only to God. So this set of axioms are just laid out that like we call that in right, divine? Right of kings. Rip. And if and if those, if that is your Baseline. If those are the axioms that you choose, then you end up with a certain kind of government. You have a total monarchy. Okay. And so from those actions like we can infer things about what the government ought to look like and right. And it and we would infer that the decrees of the king constitute the laws of his realm and that using your controlling property or exercising rights are gifts from the King, right? Those are natural.

1:50:22 Those naturally flow from that set of ideas. So let me just break this down. Primarily for myself or anyone else, it's listening. So these axioms serve as kind of the base operating system if you will. Yeah. For whatever it is, you could geometry or governments or religion. Yeah. And we go back, we take every proposition for this mathematical, or legal, or religious and we and we refer back to the axioms to make sure that the Axiom support The idea that we've come up with. Okay. Yeah. So you know, but then we just had Independence Day. So, if instead, you remember, I said axioms are these self-evident truths, right? If instead, if we say no, no.

1:51:08 The self-evident thing that we are agreeing on is that men are created equal in the eyes of the law, right? And that they are endowed with rights by their creator. Right. Rather than by the king And that among those rights are life, liberty property and the pursuit of happiness. And that those rights which are were given to us by God or by Nature, are inalienable that means that they cannot be separated from us, they like intrinsic to our being. Then if you take those as your Axiom, then you'll infer that governments are in fact created by men because the men are the source of the power, right?

1:51:50 And the governments derive, their powers from the consent of the government governed and that governments and their officers are accountable to the people And that the government's may be abolished and replaced by the people as they see fit. So you get a very different outcome outcome if you start with different foundational principles, right? So I know this is a long way to get around if you're good, this is great. So so if we use this thing right, the these axioms, What then what axioms do we need to? As you said in the beginning to start, right?

1:52:30 Yeah, that's an excellent question. So that's and that's exactly where I'm going. Is what what I think to be honest. Some of the problem with Mormonism. For that. Some some Mormons have so you so we go to religion snacks, right? So if we're Christian, which we are, then we would start out with there is a God, right? That mean this goes to the lectures on faith, Thrasher, right? First, we have an idea, there's a God, you know, when we say he's good, right? We have a understanding of his attributes and character, right?

1:53:11 You know that when you quote here from the lectures on faith, lecture 3 right 1 that he was he was God before the world was created and the same after it was created. Secondly that he is merciful gracious slow to anger, right? Third that he changes not neither is there variableness within him, he is the same from Everlasting to Everlasting fourthly that. He's a god of Truth and cannot lie, fifthly that he has no Specter of persons 60 that he is love, right? And then there's attributes listed to him and lecture for knowledge, power Justice, judgment mercy and truth. And all of these things are necessary because we want we want to believe in a God that exists and in a God, that knows enough and is powerful enough right to succeed in saving us. And as merciful enough with us to allow For our foibles and sins and weaknesses and has a plan to overcome those, right? Okay.

1:54:15 So those are all things that I think most Christians would agree with. Right also as an axiom, not only is God good and all these things, but we understand that he wants us to be with him, right? And that he has given us power to choose. And the has provided a savior to atone, so we can forgive and plans despite our errant choices and that application of the atonement is dependent on our faith and repentance. Okay? So then Mormonism comes along and Mormonism will say, oh, I will say one other thing, that's a kind of a Christian Axiom and this is a Jewish Axiom as well, is that God has revealed his will to us in the past, for our conduct and salvation. We call these things.

1:55:05 Right. The scriptures so Mormonism will take all those axioms that Christianity basically agrees with and in addition will say, but God continues to reveal his will and and in fact this you could think of this as an extension of 4C which is that he changes not, neither is there variable in this within him but he's the same from Everlasting to Everlasting. In other words. God communicated man in the past we expect since he does not change that he will continue to communicate to us. Now here's where here's where Mormonism goes.

1:55:46 Wrong is Is that we actually sometimes we shrink this set of axioms down to a single Axiom which is follow the prophet, right? And every single thing in our religion like this, this one and one, only Axiom is actually consistent independent and complete because, well, it's consistent because there's no other axioms for it to contradict with, It's independent. Again, there's only one and it's complete because everything in the religion can actually rest upon that, okay?

1:56:28 Now the and that's fine as far as that goes, but the problem is that if you accept these other axioms, Then and also accept follow the prophet as an axiom, then you will have a problem if those axioms contradict right, because if an axiom contradicts then you can prove or show or do anything. Right? And so, and so that it's and they do contradict right, because we say God is eternal and his his words are Eternal, he does not lie. He says something at. He means it, and then the prophet says, Something that is different from what God Said in the past. And so these are at odds.

1:57:13 But since we accept follow the prophet as an axiom, then we just go with whatever whatever happens to come, because there's nothing is is no anchor. Our set of axioms is inconsistent and although, although follow the prophet, if that's your only acting like it's consistent with itself, it is inconsistent with. The religion of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, right. Exactly. And, and, and it's that Axiom, follow the prophet that I think, has at times put Dogs. The god-given gift of agency in direct conflict with religion. Yeah, right.

1:58:04 If that is the primary directive, follow the prophet. And nothing else matters. That is a problem because now you have subjugated your agency to follow that one prime directive. Yeah. And this this goes exactly to what we're talking about with the founding of our nation like follow. The prophet is is in fact the religious equivalent of the divine, right of kings it is yep, it is. This guy has all authority to rule by decree. Rather than, by tying it to law, right?

1:58:49 And so, which I think is important at this point, to sit to point to point that out, right? Is that Joseph. Smith did wasn't able to Create this religion based on because I said so, yeah, right. You don't get that especially in Jacksonian America, unless you allow people to do their own thinking And come to their own conclusions. Yeah. Now, there are other the divine right of kings, You know, that that creates something called an absolute monarchy.

1:59:30 But there are. There it is possible to have a constitutional monarchy. Sure. England, does it? Yeah. We're we're the king is restrained, by the law and where the people choose the King, right? The king derives his again, his authority to govern From the consent of the governed, rather than from God. And so, he's not accountable to any of his subjects, right? So there are, there are certainly ways to have their kinds of monarchies that are not tyrannical necessarily but but if your axioms allow for tyranny, like it will manifest itself, right? In very short order, right?

2:00:18 Doesn't take long. Yeah, yeah. So So, I think so, sometimes I jokingly not jokingly jokingly, but also seriously call myself a carrot Mormon. So have you heard the term care right before? I haven't. Okay. Care. Right? Is a branch of Judaism. Okay, so care, right means readers. Okay specifically readers of the scripture, okay. And care. Right. Care, right. Jews are kind of in contrast to rabbinical Judaism, and most of most of Judaism today is rabbinical Judaism, the Orthodox, and the reform, and the Hasidic Jews, and almost all the kinds of Jews. That you normally think of they are branches of rabbinic Judaism and rabbinic.

2:01:20 Judaism basically has The same idea. That is kind of the same idea as follow the prophet. I could they say, God has given his authority to the rabbi's and the rabbi's. Therefore, if they deem necessary, may change contradict add to subtract from the law of God. Depending on the circumstances circumstances, whims personal preference, whatever. So it's not exactly the same as the Mormon idea, but there's like some similarities there and So I think that this is I think that this is a problem and so carrots actually reject that for the Jews. For the Jews.

2:02:17 The, a lot of the the Traditions actually Will trump the scriptures and traditions are found in books like the talmud and in some in some places. I have to have to give a caveat here because tradition is necessary, right? Tradition is 100% necessary because the scriptures don't actually spell out. Everything nor does the law like the law of the company of the Constitution or the laws of the state of Utah. They don't spell out everything that we should be doing every day and in every situation we have to kind of fill in our actions, you know, with traditions Their own understanding, but the problem arises, when, and Jesus had a lot to say about this, when the Traditions become elevated to the level of Commandments, right? So so if you are, if you work are right. Mormon.

2:03:25 Then you would have all those axioms that I mentioned for Christianity. Plus the Axiom that God can still continue to reveal himself but but you would you would say that the words change and lie and forever actually mean what? We normally think of okay so when we say God does not change like we actually mean he's It doesn't lie and and When God Says something is forever, like he wants you to do this forever. We just accept it as face value because this is, this is the problem that Christianity has to a lot of times, is they'll say yes. Yes, we believe God is forever.

2:04:12 His words are forever and will s accept that as an axiom, but will also say that Jesus did away with all that stuff, right? And both of these are true. Which means we can do whatever we want again, right? Right here, we can say no, actually these these Commandments, you know, Passover and the feast. Like, we don't do those anymore and some will even go. So far as to say, like, doing the feasts is like a wicked thing. Now like it was righteous and now is wicked Echo. Actually, fulfill Isaiah's prophecy about calling good evil and evil. Good fact. My dad, my dad had that Perience more than once.

2:04:56 We had move around. We moved quite a bit. When I was young, my parents was trying to find a place. They could afford mostly but my dad loved to do like Passover for the elders, Quorum and stuff or whatever for the ward, have award dinner Ryan, sometimes the bishop or the stake president be like yeah, that sounds super interesting. And they would do it and it would be edifying and enlightening and a good experience. And sometimes the bishop or the stake president, To be like, absolutely not like we are not doing that apostate. Jewish stuff. We're gonna have we're gonna have a word Halloween party, you know, but we will not do Passover, that's evil, you know, right.

2:05:37 And it's like so but if you have, if you have a contradiction in your axioms then you're allowed to cut and paste and change and do whatever you want. And I can prove that you fly, right? If we had, if we start with anything contradictory, then we can actually arrive anywhere we want. Okay. So this this brings up a couple questions and maybe you're going to get to this in a second. So, if so, just tell me slow down, how do we How do we make sure that our Traditions aren't becoming vain traditions of our fathers, right? Because I think that's problem that Jesus. I don't think I know that's problem that Jesus had to contend with, in the New Testament, right? Yeah.

2:06:29 Because you had the Pharisees who were who had all these other Traditions that had creeped in that had become part of the law. They had become elevated. That's exactly right. How do we Make sure that. We don't if we do these feasts and these sorts of things that they don't become more important than the message itself to save yourself. Oh, that's that's kind of a separate question started. Two questions there, I think. Yeah, I think it is super important to Anchor ourselves. And I and the, like, the Book of Mormon, authors are very clear about this, like they kept the law as well, but It was always these things are pointing us towards Christ, right? He is the end of the law.

2:07:26 Meaning he is what everything is pointing towards. He is the goal and and Jesus would say things like that to in his mortal Ministry. There's one time when he says, I am the light of the world, you know? And this was a remember, right? This was during probably during Tabernacles and they were one of the things like part of their celebrations, they would light these big menorahs in the temple Courtyard and stuff. That he like is this rabble Rouser and he's like you know that you're doing that because of me, you know I that's me yeah you're symbolically enacting what I am doing right here. So pay attention, you know.

2:08:16 And you know there's another time when they have the this water libation. Serve there's water pouring ceremony with the pour water from the gihon spring onto it. And he says, I am, you know, the Waters of life, you know, whoever drinks the water I give you. Never thirst. Like this stuff that you're doing is symbolic of me and because Kristen can make it made some people pretty upset right that he would upset their Traditions, you sure? So I think that's super important to actually, it's one of the Beautiful Things actually, because a lot of the holidays that we celebrate As Gentiles, they're fun. You know, Valentine's Day and st. Patrick's Day and Halloween, and Christmas and Easter, and, you know, and a lot of them have they have meaning, but they're kind of just like separate things like st. Patrick's Day doesn't have anything to do with managing stained.

2:09:19 Know nowadays, they doesn't have anything at all to do with New Year's Eve, you know? But when you look at the feasts that were given to Israel to keep forever there is this common Read continuation through every single one of them and they all point to the same things and so that's really kind of a beautiful thing. It kind of ties ties your whole year together. You know. And there's this continual reminder which is what we're supposed to be doing anyway. We're supposed to be thinking about him all the time. Absolute so I lost my train of thought there. No, we were just talking about trying to make sure that oh yeah, go ahead.

2:10:07 Yeah, and the other thing, the other thing you asked was, how do we, how do we make sure that our Traditions don't become vain traditions? And I think that's, it's so important to Again, two to tie ourselves to the scriptures really and and take and take it as an axiom. That the scriptures are more important than the Traditions. Although the scriptures allow for variation in how people celebrate or keep the Commandments. but there needs to be there needs to be this freedom and what people need to remember, is Is that is not to be offended if someone interprets a scripture a little differently than they do, right?

2:11:10 If someone You know, whatever. It's someone has a different matzo recipe, you know. But I mean the Jews actually have laws about. They have laws about how the matzo can be made and if it's not made in this very specific way than it is invalid, then you cannot use it like but all these rules that they have, none of those are actually what the scriptures say, right? Like it just says, eat flatbread to remind you about the haste. Which you left Egypt, and to remind you about the, the suffering that happened when you're in the wilderness. And, and to remind you when it comes time to celebrate and Passover, that, you know, that I was without letting you know that I was without sin and without mixed, you know, that was nothing mixed in me but what the pure the purest ingredients or whatever.

2:12:09 So then you know if it's if it's You actually I remember as a as a youth, you just reminded of the story. When I became a teacher and the LDS church transfer, I'm 14 years old and your deacons past Sacrament teachers help to prepare it, right? They set out the trays and stuff, right? Priest or the one that bless it and then your the deacons and teachers priests pass it usually. But my mom was had this excellent recipe for homemade bread. And she shared it with many people loved it and you know, had my little interview With the bishop. And he was talking to me about my duties as a teacher and stuff, and how I'd be asked to bring the bread sometimes, and I said, oh, that's perfect. I'll my mom has this great Brad.

2:12:53 She'll make a loaf of homemade whole wheat bread, you know? And we'll bring it and he's like, no, we want to have white bread for the sacrament because, you know, we just reminds us of how pure it's more pure, you know. Wow. And and I was like, okay, you know, I don't Don't. But, you know, looking back, I'm like, scriptures. Don't say white bread. No, it probably wasn't even a thing that you know, that Jesus didn't have white bread, you know? And he had the Last Supper when he said, eat this in remembrance of my body. And, yeah, I'm not sure the early Pioneers had white bread. No. So we just like, there's absolutely nothing wrong with whole wheat bread for the sacrament, you know?

2:13:35 And but but if we, we just build tradition upon tradition, upon tradition and never like, go back to check, And then we start to get we'll just we'll just make up traditions and turn them into Commandments. I said I don't have a problem with Traditions it's not like if he if the bishop it said well I prefer white bread you know but if that's all you have that's fine. But I prefer white bread for this reason like it's a meaningful to me but there's nothing against it. you know, then you know then that I think is great like if someone has a preference but you just need to be sure that it's The you elevate preferences or even meaningful Traditions to the level of Commandments?

2:14:17 No, I think that's great. You know, it's a, it's, this is, this is another problem because problem that If you look at Christians and Jews and compare it to compare what they believe. And I, you lump Mormons in with the Christians. Compare what they believe to the scriptures. The scriptures in many places, say, something along the lines of you shall not add to, or subtract from what I have commanded you and or do not deviate to the right hand, or to the left, or anything more or less than this. Cometh of evil and Jews. For the most part, have added a bunch more things to the law and Christians have subtracted, a bunch of things, and they're both like in error, went on to the left and one on the right. And I think what the scriptures say is in the middle somewhere right now, I'd agree with that wholeheartedly and and I go back to something as a surveyor which is You may start out if you only, if you're trying to lay something out and you're off in your bearing, let's say half a degree. Yeah.

2:15:38 And you're only going 10 feet. You're going to see a difference? No, no, no. You maybe a couple hundredths, right? Yeah, but if you extrapolate that line out, half a mile, a mile two miles. It exponentially Grows, Right? Yeah, it continues to grow into to expound and The point where all the sudden where you intended to go, you're hundreds of miles away. And so I think you're 100% right that with some of these things that are Traditions, which are fine. We constantly have to be giving bearing checks, right? Are we really on the course we're supposed to be? Let's look back a little bit.

2:16:19 Yeah let's see where we're at now. Let's try to figure out where we're going because often times if you're not careful and some of those Traditions they'll throw you off course. Yeah. And they and they get it compounds, it compacts. Once we once we detach ourselves And say this tradition is now. I mean it's essentially that we we we make our set of axioms inconsistent. Yep say now this tradition is a commandment which actually violates what the scriptures say. Yep. Because going to say don't make your Traditions Commandments but when we say that is then suddenly we can do anything we want. Absolutely.

2:17:01 Yeah. So it's yeah. It's that's a beautiful. Example, with the surveying. Yeah, yeah. Just keeping it tied or chained to a correct bearing. The correct bearing. The correct heading Q. Yep. Yeah. So you're so, so I'll if, if those are, if those are our axioms as a carrot Mormon, then the kind of religion that follows from that. is that you know the since God's words and commands are forever and he does not lie or change then any new scripture must harmonize with and support are not common or at least not contradict previous scripture and And that also means that that God's words or his plan, for salvation also does not change like there's not been God, has not had different plans of salvation for different groups of people in different times.

2:18:13 So we're doing fine. Are we doing final time? We're doing fine. Okay, look these I set these up to be long-form conversation. All right, so weak I can go as long as you can, okay. All right. So any any other thoughts from you before? No. No, I think that's great. I'm thoroughly enjoying now. My it took me a while to kind of arrive at this at these conclusions. But my my conclusions right now and I feel like they are well supported and we'll get into some of that here in a minute.

2:18:56 But like I don't, I don't believe that any Commandment that God has ever given is done away. Now, I have to put a caveat on that because I'm speaking about General Commandments, right? So God commanded Noah to build an ark. I don't think that that means I need to build an ark and you need. Everyone needs to build an ark, right? Right. I think that they're in you. I believe that God does and can give specific instructions to specific people and he can tell you to do the Mormon Renegade podcast and not me and that's, that's totally fine.

2:19:38 That might fall more Under The Heading of a mission, right? This. Yes, this is your assignment. Not so much a commandment I think there's just some semantics there, but I do think I do think that not everyone's sins are going to be the same. Right? Because I think if you receive a specific assignment and you fail in that or don't or turn away like Jonah running away from Nineveh or whatever, like we're not all commanded to go preach to Nineveh Jonah was and so that was a sin for him where I not Nineveh. It's not a sin for me too.

2:20:20 I never have to visit Minima Universe in my life but I want to so You know, that actually brings up talking about God's plan and about what he wants of us. You know, brings up the question, what is sin? And so if you have a definition, what is sin? So I remember, I I had a friend. Who again, I met back East, I had so many cool trick, interesting.

2:21:02 People back East it is he was Greek. Hmm. And he was a Greek, Orthodox residence. And he had the most interesting take on the word sin. He said, in the Greek, Sin means to miss the mark, that's an archery term. It's an Archer, right? It's to miss the mark. And in some ways I really like that because as a guy who's supremely flawed like I am that gives me the opportunity to say, I screwed up. Yeah. But I'm practicing. Yeah. And I'm going to continue to try to hit the mark.

2:21:45 Hmm. No, yeah, nah, that's beautiful. I think sometimes people get If you get overwhelmed sometimes. Yeah. The with trying to be righteous, I think I think Mormonism has developed its own culture, which really plays into that heavily agreed and not that having those goals aren't good. But if you're missing the lessons along the way, you're kind of missing the point. Yeah, yeah, no. I mean Evangelical Christians have a lot of good stuff to say about Grace. They. Yeah.

2:22:26 And we forget that sometimes as Mormons because the honestly, yeah, God gives us weaknesses so that we can rely on him. This is ether either. I can't remember I can't board as well as I knew which talking. Yeah, gives men weaknesses that they might be made strong, you know, if we rely on him. So is there's a And your weaknesses. weaknesses are not sins necessarily and even sins themselves are In one sense, I have to be careful here. I could say there's no sin shame in being a sinner because you're just among other sinner like everyone's a sinner. On the other hand, there is a lot of Shame, if you just decide, you're going to stay there, I think it's about intent, right?

2:23:35 And I often go back to when I was playing football. um, It's a sad truth, which I can't even say. It's a statue, it's a truth uncomfortable. I know maybe that we learn way more from our mistakes. Yeah, then we do from our victories, a lot of times, right? Breaking down game film. Where you sucked is a horrible experience, right? Because it's so educational. It's on display for everybody to see right now. What's interesting and it took me a long time to notice Took me actually coaching the game. When I lived in a small town in Idaho for a small high school is that you may point out that coach may have pointed out.

2:24:22 Everybody else everybody else is failures but you think yours is the worst now? Rewrite, this this is the intent, right? This, this is where I think we need to look at our sin. With a certain intent. You're breaking down game film. Let's look at this. Let's study this house. Why did you do this? Yeah, let's not do this again, instead. Let's do this. I think, I think if we can Can use our mistakes in our mishaps, our sin, in such a way to get better. Yeah. I think we're working the plan. I think that's, that's the data. That's right. You are working the plan. Good for you. You must experience that dryer.

2:25:02 Yeah. Yeah. If you're well, crap, I screwed up. I'm just done trying. And I'm just going to stay here and keep screwing up. That's different. That's right. And so, I think it's the intent, right? Yeah, actions. I mean actions don't always actions. Don't reveal intent. Hmm, I'll not always mean. No, they definitely connected but but I think that's important. My wife Charlotte. Just she watched an interesting video teaching this principle about like how to criticize someone in a in like the most productive way because when Like corrects a correct.

2:25:48 I should say rather than criticize when someone corrects or criticizes us. Like we take it personally. Mhm. And the reason for that is like we think that they're saying, we think that they're saying we are a bad person, you know, we're like we're not worth as much or something. When really, when really they're just criticizing what we were doing that. We weren't doing it in the best way, or we do, we're doing it in a way that was annoying or whatever. And as long as as long as if you're the one criticizing you like make it clear. Like, this is not about whether you are a good person or a valuable person.

2:26:29 It's just that you're doing something not that. I think could be improved, right? And I know you have, I know that you want to do good. And so I have an idea for you, right? And and same thing, if you're receiving it, whether they say it or not just like internalized, like Do want I have good intent. I want to do better. I want to do good and so I'll take this as a critique of my actions but not my intent because my intent even though I fell short or was lazy or whatever, like I do want to do good and so I think yeah. Like the intent is is key and You know, and I'm so grateful that that we will be judged on that. Like, God says, you know, I look on the man, man. Looks on the outward appearance, but I look on the heart, right? And so so I feel pretty II feel confident in that, you know, like I'm gives them some hope, right? I am hopeful about that like I know, I know there's lots of scriptures that talk about the horrible experience that judgment will be and I have no doubt that it will be a little uncomfortable sometimes or maybe a lot uncomfortable, but but I still have faith that God is merciful and that I'm in. Good hands as well say, right?

2:27:53 Yeah, no, I agree:. I've often The judgment is sitting there and him stopping a pit and pause on a video going. What were you thinking there? I mean, what was your, what were you trying to get done right there, right? And and hash, and some of those out. Yeah. So sometimes I remember thinking this as a, when I was a child or young, men, young adult, I guess, like thinking like, gosh, like the Commandments are ER, So much to do. Okay, I can sin and so many different ways, you know, but I didn't really, I didn't really have a concept of the law. And so we're going to read.

2:28:43 This is what this what John says, First John 3 verse 4 Whoever committeth sin is the King James, whoever commits, a sin transgresseth. Also, the law for sin is the transgression of the law. Okay, in the American Standard Version says everyone that doeth Sindhu with also lawlessness for sin is lawlessness. So so it really is tied to what do the scriptures say and and and not more or less either. Right is not a sin to bring brown bread to the second.

2:29:24 The scripture doesn't say one way or the other, it's fine. If you do bring white bread, if you have a preference for that or maybe you have a preference for brown bread, like I know people do like, no, this is healthy and white breads and Abomination, like it doesn't say that. There. Yeah, and so so so once you realize that I think that as a as a you know, as an axiom or as a foundational principle this goes to the founding of our nation to we want the law to be immutable. We want the law to be written down, right? We don't want the law to be by decree of the guy on top.

2:30:06 And he can say he can Change things make things that were righteous once now, Wicked change the plan this way and that way, add or subtract things that contradict with previous things, we don't want that for our government and we shouldn't want that for our religion either. So, going back to the divine right of kings. Did, you know, like this is in Deuteronomy again, Deuteronomy 17, actually going to read this Deuteronomy 17 18, through 20, this What the Israelites had a king. This is what the King was supposed to do. When he takes Throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself. On a scroll, a copy of this law taken from that of the levitical.

2:30:55 Priests, it is to be with him and he used to read it all the days of his life. So that he may learn to Revere the Lord, his God and follow carefully. All the words of this law and these decrees and not to consider himself better than his fellow. Lights and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants Will Rain a long time over his kingdom in Israel. Wow, I don't you wish that we said you're an elected leader. You must write a, we're in a watch here, you will write copy word for word of the Constitution and you will keep that with you. So that you and we all know that you read it and you wrote it and we're going to hold you to that. So you don't think you're better than us and that you can just do whatever you want but you realize this is the law and I'm going to.

2:31:41 Yeah, yeah that's like Gary wish, I wish essential political talk. I mean, yeah. If you could get somebody to do that, yeah, that would solve so many of the problems. So we want, we want the law to be written and not to change. So, now, having said that there is, there's more than one way to interpret the law. So, sometimes I'll talk with things about the Old Testament, and the law, and the feasts. And, and I mean, the whole law. The whole thing laws about slavery and marriage and about purity and about kosher eating, and all those things we can look at those things with different eyes, and I like to say a Greek eyes versus Hebrew eyes, right? Okay, So, now, the same thing happens with our constitution to because you got a literal most and then you have an interpretation.

2:32:49 That's right. So, there's a whole bunch of what are called like modes of constitutional interpretation, right? And and there's a bunch of different ones, but I just want to highlight kind of these two two opposite ends. One is the original is mmm. Okay, originalism is right is based is a search that all the statements in the Constitution must be interpreted and our best interpreted based on the original understanding at the time it was adopted right in other words originalist want to know. What the founding fathers and other colonists were thinking, we want to know how they use.

2:33:33 And defined words what they thought about government and the law and the issues, and the problems that they were facing in their day. That led them to include particular word, okay? And then on the other end, we have well, one other thing is that this View Implicitly believes that the constitution is stable, in other words, it its meaning doesn't change. And that if you want to change the Constitution or its meaning, the only way to do that is according to Article Five, right? Okay. But then we have the concept of the living Constitution which says that the constitution should be interpreted based on the context of current times and current political ideas and ideologies and And usage of and definitions of words and modern views on the purpose of laws and the scope and power of governments, all those things.

2:34:35 And if you take these views, you're going to end up with very different ideas, right? So applying that to religious ideas, you know, it's Greek versus Hebrew eyes. Well, how do you interpret the the text. So here's a little, a little exercise. Sighs. Okay, I'm going to ask you for your responses and you can tell me either like these, when you tell me what looks like the common, some of the like short, descriptors maybe of what, people think of the law of Moses, like Christians or Mormons like Okay, I think that, that most Christians and Mormons, look at the law of Moses, as the task, the task, master that pointed us towards Christ, okay, Taskmaster? I mean, I've heard people say it was harsh. Mmm.

2:35:33 Okay. A burden Preparatory in some ways? Yes complex Impossible to keep. I have even heard some people say it was it was wicked like that it was like or it was a curse which it is a stretch. That's not that's not the usual sir but but it is common to hear people say it was a curse. Yeah. No those laws were given to them as a curse. Yeah, it was a burdensome curse. So that's like that's with our that is with our Greek and Roman eyes.

2:36:16 But if you want to know what the Hebrews, what the Hebrew as the Israelite eyes looked at how they looked at the law in, read in the Psalms, this is Psalm 19. Starting at verse 7, the law will only back up to the law, the law, and the Commandments. Sometimes those are synonymous and the Commandments, the scriptures you've noticed. Sometimes I talk about the It's the statutes, the testimonies the Commandments those judgments statutes and testimonies are like different kinds of Commandments, okay? The testimonies are the remembrances like Independence Day or like in the Hebrew is Passover, like we memorializing something or the Sabbath were memorializing this seventh day of creation.

2:37:07 Those are the testimonies statutes are Things that don't necessarily make sense, okay? Like don't eat pigs like, why not? They're delicious, right? Okay. And then judgments are things that are basically universally understood. Don't murder don't steal like, okay, okay, so just so, you know, so these are all parts of the law. So this is Psalm 19. The law of the Lord is perfect restoring the soul. The testimony of the Lord is sure making wise, the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing, the heart. The Commandment of the Lord is pure enlightening, the eyes, the fear of the Lord is clean enduring forever. The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired.

2:37:52 Are they than gold? Yea than much, fine. Gold sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Bowser, that's when the Heap with you, look at what they consider the law to be. It was more to be desired than gold. Yea than much fine, gold sweeter than honey. Good and righteous altogether. Making wise, the simple restoring the soul. All these things. There's nothing in there about how accursed and burdensome and temporary. And and you know, all the things that we looking back on it with Cristiano. As would describe the law as well. Let me ask you a question here because We can to practice religion within a framework of pre-existing laws and conditions that set forth in the United States Constitution. Israel practiced their religion within the confines. Shouldn't even say the confines within the structure of a very integrated.

2:39:05 Political structure. Right? A theocracy a theocracy. Yeah, right. So if we look at sometimes sometimes, yes, sometimes you're correct. That's how it was meant to be. So as you read that out of Psalms that you just did, I think we'll, of course, that would be sweet to them because they are forging a new or attempting to Perpetual Perpetual eyes if that's even a word. They're this system that comes from utter chaos, right? Because you have to remember this law Springs forth.

2:39:47 A lot of it in a time when Israel is plucked out of Egypt. Yeah. And then thrown into the chaos of the Wilderness. Yeah. And then into the chaos of War at Jericho Jericho, I believe. Yeah. And even before that and then now they have to bring all of this chaos and To order. So, I think for most Mormons and most Christians There's a bit of a disconnect there because we tend to look at religion as being able to operate within this very secular framework. That is the United States Constitution, right? The founders were very deliberate and how they framed the word god. Versus this this Hebrew outlook on it, which is the law, and the Lord are very much intertwined.

2:40:40 Yeah, it's very nationalistic. So my question is, is that as Mormons And especially fundamentalist Mormons. Do we need to start thinking about keeping these things? Is almost a type of counterculture and a peaceful one. Yes, absolutely. Right. A peaceful one, one that can co-exist and harmonize but it counterculture. Nonetheless. You have any thoughts on that? Yeah, I think it's well I mentioned Israel did not always do they. They were you in the history of the Bible they were very seldom Sovereign actually right. They were for a little while and then you know and then they were in Babylon and then they came back for a little bit but they're really you know, a vassal state to Persia and then and then the Greeks took them over and then the Romans and then they were scattered, right? And so there's not very much time when they're actually. Independent.

2:41:40 They were there were, you know, bits and pieces. There Even during even during Jesus day, right under the Roman very end, they were under the thumb of the Romans and still, and still Jesus. Encouraged everyone to keep along and encourage righteousness, but also But he had a lot to say about the traditions of the elders. Like I said, maybe we'll get to that some more. So I do think it's important to keep as many of The Commandments as possible, Right? Even in Jesus day, they could not keep all the Commandments. They just couldn't because the Romans wouldn't allow them right to have their own courts and stuff. For example, and the same is the same is true for us, like you read the scriptures.

2:42:35 The Dates are supposed to have their own courts and councils for everything, not just religious things, but for civil matters to that is the ideal as you mentioned, but we can't. That's okay, that, that shouldn't, that shouldn't stop us from doing everything that we can and God will. And God will take that into account. Like, he knows knows the circumstances and One thing I like to, I mean, I point out sometimes even in, even in Jesus day, even the priests couldn't keep everything, they had their Temple, but they couldn't even keep all the Commandments then, because when they were taken captive into Babylon, Jeremiah took the Ark of the Covenant and hit it.

2:43:24 And so when the temple was rebuilt, holy of holies was empty, but the high priest supposed to go in there and sprinkle Blood on the Ark of the Covenant or in front of the Ark of the Covenant on the day of atonement, and he could not do that. So, they just go in and they sprinkle it, you know, on the ground near, you know, where brother would have been and that's the best that you can do, and that's okay. So, even in Jesus day, they couldn't keep all the Commandments, and that's, that's fine. Fine. Okay, no I mix. That makes perfect sense. But yeah, I do think that I do think there needs to be a A.

2:44:05 Almost I would say nationalistic Revival of that. We are like ancient Israel. Like we are still and we are still in nation even though we're part of Rome, we are Israelites still and and we have our own unique customs and we're going to keep them as best we can within this framework of society that we are in. And I think the Constitution of the United States is beautiful because it it kind of allows allows for that, right? And allows other people to have their communities to and we can have, we can be allies but not have to be, I have freedom still?

2:44:47 Yeah, yeah. So So there's more than one way to interpret things. so, let's see, I do want to say Let's see. I need to do another another eye exam, I guess. Okay, Greek forces Hebrew. Okay, okay, so I asked people to sometimes to is, you know, before before the atonement was accomplished. People living back in King Solomon's day Elijah's day Malachi with her.

2:45:30 How would they forgiven of sins? How did they obtain forgiveness of their sins through animal sacrifice? Yeah. Right. That's that's the usual answer and so but then if that were the case, then what need was there for the atonement? if you could actually be forgiven by sacrificing an animal, And the answer is the answer that I would say to that. Is that that is that is a gross. Misunderstanding of what sacrifices for sacrifice never was meant to be like a competing method of Salvation with the atonement.

2:46:18 And in Hebrews, the Apostle Paul says those blood of goats and sheep back never forgave anyone's in. And it is a little unfortunate that in English. There is, I mean, it says, sacrifice for sins, this sin offerings, right. But it's a, the word is they don't have the Hebrew word, but I know that's better. Interpreted purification offering. Not. So it's because sometimes you would do sin offerings for things that weren't sins. Like, if you touch the dead body here, right? You're burying your father or something, but you would you accumulate this ritual impurity, that would make it so that you can't go to the temple and, you know, participate until you, you know, wash your clothes and wash yourself and clean yourself up, and then you would be considered.

2:47:13 And then sometimes, sometimes you would offer This sin offering but it was just really a purification offering, okay? And then you are right with God and can be participate and be in his presence symbolically. So so know like people who live before Jesus, all their sins that their sins were by faith in by faith on the sacrifice of Messiah, right? Every bit as much as you know, it It's like saying to us. Now does does partaking of the, the bread and wine or water for the sacrament. Does that forgive your sins?

2:47:55 Now, of course, we understand that. No, no, no. But that is a reminder of that's to point us towards the sacrifice of the same, right? And it's the same for them to and actually in in a certain sense of speaking, the atonement happened before Anyone was on the earth. Sure the scriptures in more than one place. Say he was the lamb slain from before the foundations of the world. So the tommen happened in God's timing. Wow. Before everyone, right? And everyone relies on the same thing. So, so Joseph Smith talks about this too.

2:48:36 He says, you know, so this is, this is again Hebrew worth versus Creek, guys here, right? Hebrew Hebrew. The Hebrew concept of God is unchanging his plan. And the way that we interact with him has never changed and never will change, because he's smart enough to lay it down, right the first time. Yep. Humans we make laws and we change them and we add to them because we don't know what we're doing, but we're just experiment. We are. Yeah, but God is smart enough that he gets it right the first time and just sticks with that, okay? But, you know, Jesus killed Jews.

2:49:20 Are scattered Christianity starts to spread among all these former pagans right Greeks and Romans, and who knows what else, and what do, what did Greeks think about their God, their gods? They think, are their gods constant know? Their, their gods are kind of chaotic, their gods are It has changed their mind all the time. Their gods say, one thing one day and another the next day they are entirely fickle and in constant and you have all these all these pagans who are now Christians and they have no problem with believing that God used to say, you know, when Adam and Eve came out of the garden that there was sacrifice and, and the gospel, you know, the New Testament talks about the gospel being He preached to Abraham and stuff, but then, you know, Abraham comes along and there's circumcision is added to that. And then Moses comes along and like all the gospel stuff is gone away and we replace it with this all these, you know, all this my new shh of the law of Moses. And then Jesus comes along and does away with all of that and also the circumcision stuff with Abraham but then someday there will be sacrifice.

2:50:44 Because the Old Testament talks about that and and Joseph Smith talks about that with the gospel stuff. And like we don't have any problems swallowing that because we just have this we looking at everything with Greek eyes that and we're not pagans, no. But we've interpret, we have inherited these ideas from our ancestors. That God does change his mind. Sometimes and comes up with a new plan. It used to be by animal sacrifice, but now it's by Jesus. And like, those people were saved in a different way than we are. Saved, right? And so I'm actually going to see the problem with cultural heritage so to speak. Yeah, exactly.

2:51:25 So this is, this is Joseph Smith. This is a Teaching of Prophet, Joseph Smith, patient 59. Now he in this quote, he's talking about the gospel, what we consider the gospel being around in ancient times before Jesus. Okay. So it's a little different than saying that the law of God given through Moses has applicable today, but get the idea. So, Josephus says, we all admit that the gospel has ordinances. And if so had it not always ordinances And we're not its ordinances, always the same. Perhaps our friends will say me our Christian friends that the gospel and its ordinances were not known until the days of John the son of Zechariah.

2:52:13 Says, in the days of Herod, the king of Judah. But we will hear look at this point for our own point. We cannot believe that the Ancients and all ages were. So ignorant of the system of Heaven, as many suppose, since all that were ever saved were saved through the power of this great Plan of Redemption. Option as much. So before the coming of Christ, as since if not God has had different plans in operation. If we may. So express it to bring men back to dwell with himself. And this we cannot believe since there has been no change in the constitution of man, since he felt like men still have the same problem. And so God's solution is still the same and always has been. I love, he says, this is something that Mormons cannot believe is that God would have a different modes of Salvation at different dispensations, right?

2:53:10 We can't we do not we do not leave that otherwise. God is partial, right? You know, I had a, I had a talk with my boss at work about this whole covid thing and mandatory injections of experimental things that we take no responsibility for. But we're requiring you to take it anyway and all of the, the crazy. Crazy and frankly illegal things that were done or attempted and you know he his argument to me was because he's kind of in favor of all that he's argument to me was and I talked about like the Constitutional issues is his argument was well the Constitution really needs to be revised and update like it was written so long ago. Those guys didn't have any idea about global pandemics. All that which is not true.

2:54:16 Because the Black Death was before that, you know, so they had perfect idea about and they had that extent. We dealing with outbreaks of get the cholera and call upon what happened. Like, no, that's not even true. Like your premise is not even true, but he says, you know, we've just advanced in technology so much like do you think like we should and We Know Better. Yeah. Now we know better. Don't you think we should like update the Constitution so that we can force people to do these things? Things and stuff and and because and do what's best for society, you know, and I mean, my response was the constitution is not concerned with updates in science or technology and it's true that like we did not, we have not discovered at the time, the Constitution was written. We didn't know about many of the things that we take for granted now, scientific and medical discoveries, but there is one discovery that the founding fathers There's knew very well about was discovered.

2:55:17 Before the Constitution that was the nature of mankind, right? And that has not changed. And that is the issue that the constitution is addressing not technology and updating that it is addressing the problem of man and our desire to be tyrants over our fellow man like that has not changed. And so the Constitution should not be updated because that is still the case the best description I ever heard of the Constitution was as it was a charter of negative Liberty. He's for the government. That is exactly. Right. So it cannot be. It cannot do the things that the founders were concerned about. Yeah. Yeah. You read the Bill of Rights, and this is another.

2:55:59 This is a big is a huge misunderstanding that people have about the Constitution, they'll say, you know, the Constitution gives us the right to vote or to have free speech, or to carry arms or whatever. It's like, no, no, no, no. Or even that the Bill of Rights does not give us those notes. Those are inalienable rights facts, right? Yeah. That is the mistake, though. The Bill of Rights actually puts limits on the government. It does not grant us anything it limits the government in all of these areas. Yep, right. This shall not be infringed. There should be no law about religion you know right of free speech all those things.

2:56:41 So anyway, so Joe's is talking. In about. So the Constitution is still valid document because human beings are the same. Even though we have more technology. Like I was saying, we are humans, still with the same weaknesses sinful Nature's and proclivities that we have always been that makes us human. Yeah. Yep. And so just says, the same is true when it comes to our Salvation and God's plan for us, it says that the nature of the same. Some will suppose that before the coming of Christ, your things were different.

2:57:24 That God has had different plans in operation to bring men back to dwell with him. But we cannot believe the since there's been no change in the constitution of, man since he fell like, we're still, we're still the same. Yeah, we still have the stream natural inclinations that run. Contrary to the will of God. Yeah, so sometimes when when we refer to the law of Moses. Sometimes it's kind of used in a little bit of a pejorative sense. I think it's like that is Moses law, you know really I think more accurate thing is to say the law of God revealed given to Moses, write a little harder to brush away when it's I think again, probably because of our Greek eyes, if you will, or our cultural heritage or cultural remembrance, we tend to look at them into Brett fastens, right? There's there's a dividing line between Moses the law of Moses and then the higher law that's often spoke. Yes.

2:58:25 In in Jesus. Yes, the issue that I keep coming back to you is if this is the restoration of all things It has to include Moses. That's right. We don't get to just exclude that because We feel like we're under a different Covenant, are you reading my notes here? No, no, sorry. So, that's right. We tend to think of no, no, that doesn't apply to us anymore because we have Jesus. Yeah, right, that's right. And I don't think that's the case, right?

2:59:06 The God you have to take a holistic view of the Gospel especially if you make the claim that this is the restoration of all things. That's right. Yeah. Amen to that. So yeah, you mentioned the restoration of all things, and the law of Moses. So I'm going to have another quote here from Joseph Smith, teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. This is like page 172 173. This kind of long but it's good. Actually, he starts off with this. This quote starts off with a really interesting statement about what the keys of the priesthood are. Okay, so you'll ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers but and you know there's validity to all those different answers and no doubt but Joseph here boils it down to two things.

2:59:59 I says the keys of the priesthood consisted in obtaining the voice of Jehovah. At, and in, and in the offering of sacrifice, that is the that constitutes the keys of the priesthood. And in some sense, I'm sure you could. You can assign milk, his attic and erotic, to those things. But anyway, so I'll start here. The Swede behold that the keys of this priesthood consisted in obtaining, the voice of Jehovah that he talked with him, Noah in a familiar and friendly Manner, and that he continued to him. The He's and Covenants and Power in the glory, which he had blessed Adam with, which he had less Adam at the beginning.

3:00:41 And the offering of sacrifice, which also shall be continued at the last time. This is a, this is in bold here for all the ordinances and duties that ever have been required by the priesthood under the directions and Commandments of the almighty in any of the dispensations shall be had in the last dispensation. Therefore all things had under the authority of the priesthood at any former period shall be had again bringing to pass the restoration spoken of by the mouth of all the holy prophets. Then shall the sons of Levi offer, an acceptable offering unto the Lord and He Shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and shall purify the sons of Levi and purge them as gold and silver that they may offer unto the Lord quoting Malachi. It will be necessary here to make a few observations on the doctrine set forth in the above quotation, and it is generally supposed that sacrifice was entirely done away. When the Great sacrifice, IE, the sacrifice of the Lord, Jesus was offered up and that there will be no necessity for the ordinance of sacrifice in the future. But those who assert this are certainly not acquainted with the duties privileges and authority of the priesthood or with the prophets meaning, they don't understand what Prophets have said about sacrifice.

3:02:04 Continuing says, the offering of sacrifice has ever been connected and forms a part of the duties of the priesthood. It began with the priesthood and will be continued until after the coming of Christ from generation to generation. We frequently have made mention of the offering of Sacrifice by the Servants. Of the most high in ancient days, prior to the law of Moses which ordinances will be continued when the priesthood is restored with all its Authority, power and blessings. It is a very prevalent opinion that the sacrifices which were offered were entirely consumed. This was not the case if you read, Leviticus two versus two three, you will observe that the priest took apart as a memorial and offered it up before the Lord, while the remainder was Kept For the maintenance of the priests.

3:02:53 So that the offerings and sacrifices are not all consumed upon the altar, but the blood is sprinkled in the fat and certain other portions are consumed. The Is sacrifices. He just Joseph just mentioned the levitical sacrifices and also the patriarchal sacrifices, you know, with no. And sister says these sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the priesthood will when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi purified be fully restored and attended to in all their powers ramifications and blessings this ever did and ever will exist. When the powers of the Melchizedek priesthood are Sufficiently manifest else. How can the restoration of all things spoken of by the holy prophets, be brought to pass.

3:03:41 It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rights and variety of Ceremonies. But this has never been spoken of by the prophets but those things which existed prior to Moses's day, namely sacrifice will be continued. It may be asked by some what necessity for sacrifice since the great sacrifice was offered in answer to it. If repentance baptism and Faith existed prior to the days of Christ, what necessity for them since that time. Okay. So there's kind of a lot to unpack, but one is what you said, spot on every single thing that has ever been required of the priesthood in any of the dispensations is going to be had in the last dispensation.

3:04:25 And I will, and I would actually argue that everything that has ever been in any, dispensation has always been right required. But but we have been prevented from keeping them from time to time for apostasy or oppression from foreign governments or whatever but that the word of God itself, whether we're keeping it or not, the word of God stands forever, right? That's what I was saying. So there's one thing, another thing is, you know, what's he talking about? If repentance faith and baptism existed prior to the days of Christ, what need for them since he's actually So he's kind of making an argument by symmetry here.

3:05:08 That. Well, what do, what do Faith repentance and baptism do for us now and the answer is go ahead. Give me an answer. Well, they serve as the, you know, Faith baptism of repentance, is the entryway into the Gospel Kingdom. Yeah, right. I mean, it's an ordinance that must be kept. Yeah. Now, The Logical conclusion is that if what Joseph Smith said is true, which I believe it is that those things existed prior to Christ. Why would we need to do them now? Wipe that? Right? Yeah, Jesus did away with everything before, right? So fill the same rules, apply to the stuff that maybe we, who look at things to pre, guys, as you like say, seeing distasteful. Just because they seem distasteful, doesn't mean that they're not just Has necessary meaningful and necessary and as baptism faith and repentance.

3:06:04 That's exactly right, that's exactly the argument. Like, if if those things, Faith baptism of repentance have value both before and after and we can it doesn't matter what you say. You you give any benefit any reason why God would say those things. What why God would come and those things. And tell us about the sings. Whatever reason you give applies before and after? Yep and the same thing, if you can come up with any good Reason for sacrifice. Like it's the same reason with all the principles of gospel. It's just this. It was a, he did come in the Meridian of time, but there wasn't like a discontinuity and God's plan know everything before. And after just points towards the Meridian everything before and after points towards a great sacrifice, I think we tend to look at things as being in different books. While God looks at things as being different chapters of the same.

3:06:59 Right. It's a good way to put it and so oftentimes we tend to be like, nope, all Testament is done, that's the end of that book. We don't have to worry about what's in that book. Maybe we reference it from time to time as a historical is historical, but that's done. Now we're in this new book and I don't think I don't think God reference. This is what that way. I think it's the same book with different chapters and those chapters all those chapters are just as important. The other thing I want to say at this point The point is that you've done a great job there of making the following point, which is, I asked the question earlier.

3:07:39 Why weren't these things brought up by Joseph Smith, or restored by Joseph Smith? As fundamentalist we have a propensity to say, we're going back to the source, right? The source being Joseph Smith, we now have gone back to the sources. You've just shown and have What Joseph's words speak for themselves on the necessity of these things? Yeah, I think in many ways now a lot of Mormons like until unless they had read this wouldn't believe that, right? Because because we have inherited this Protestant world, view of what religion should be.

3:08:25 And you know, that like you said the Old Testaments done away like that is, that is a common thing. In fact I even remember and you probably do too you know in the like that that little piece about sacrifice being done away is like part of the donut. Yeah. Right. They say that even though Joe it contradicts flatly with what Joseph said and also contradicts with what the prophet said like he quoted Malachi about in the future. The sons of Levi will be purified and then they will again offer acceptable offerings to the Lord. And so do you view that portion of the endowment as an error. Yes.

3:09:08 Okay yeah or certainly or certainly without a new alliance. Okay. Yeah so now Jews they believe in the law of Moses and they believe that it's the word of God and commanded but they also don't offer sacrifices. Really they are waiting for the same thing that Joseph said, we're waiting for in order to fully do these things right? He said These sacrifices levitical and patriarchal as well as every ordinance belonging to the priesthood will when the Temple of the Lord shall be built and the sons of Levi purified, be restored and attended to and all their powers ramifications and blessings.

3:09:57 So we don't have a place to do all the things. The Jews don't have a place either and that is the reason why Jews don't do use aren't doing sacrifice either. They're waiting for the temple to be rebuilt. In Jerusalem, right? So, so, let me let the difference between Mormons and Jews. Is that Jews are looking forward to that and Mormons for the most part have no idea that that's in the plan, right? So let me ask you this, because I'm just curious on what your opinion is on this. Do you foresee like a levitical temple? So to speak and then yes and Melchizedek Temple because I think that follows exactly with what Joseph Smith had in mind. Because if you look at again, because I'm a surveyor and really kind of Of a nerd.

3:10:43 I look at those old maps and I kind of get a little taken with them, right? I mean, yeah, they're beautiful. They're beautiful right, man. Mechanism is an art. Yeah. And so, when you look at the original layout, that Joseph had 24 temples 24, right, and one of those, if I remember correctly was for the levitical twist. Yeah. Half yep. Yeah. And I don't have I don't have the reference So, I apologize for that, but I know, I think it was, John Taylor had a vision of like that Temple complex in operation in the future, and he describes these pillars of smoke coming from altars. I know what you're talking about. Yeah, so, so, it's coming back now, when we, when we read this, and we, with our Greek eyes, we grab onto this part here, where he says the law of Moses He's Joe said, although he before he said, every single thing that's been required by the priesthood in any, dispensation will be restored, and he talks about you in Leviticus chapter 2 and he talks about the levitical offerings.

3:11:53 And then he says something, he says, it's not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rights varieties and ceremonies. This has never been spoken of by the prophets and so we look at that and we're like ahh see all that stuff is done away even though Though, he just barely talked about the levitical, The Book of Leviticus, okay. So so what how do we like parse that out? And what I the conclusion I've come to and I can explain is that we don't know what the law of Moses is. Okay. So I remember and maybe you do too LL as a convert maybe maybe you don't but I remember Growing up in the church and having Sunday school lessons, about law of Moses, and about all the crazy things that are required.

3:12:46 And we've talked about some of them here. Now, like when we do you make matzo for Rice over? Like it has to be, you have to grind the wheat. Mix the ingredients need it, roll it out, and put it in the oven in under 18 minutes. Otherwise, not Kosher otherwise. And if you eat it for Passover, if that has happy you violated that, then you know then you're sitting right and it's breaking the Commandment. So of course the scriptures don't say any of that stuff but I remember being taught that that is what the law of Moses is CI. And and I remember hearing very similar things and son School Adult Sunday school. And I'm like, we don't really know right because by the time we start getting a real good record of what the law. The law of Moses is and quote.

3:13:39 Yeah. It's already been pardon. The expression. Kind of, probably bastardized, a little bit by some of the Pharisees, right? Yes. 100 and so, we don't know exactly what that was. So I agree with you. Totally there, let me ask you one more question, please remove on here. How do you square that with what Jesus said in 3rd Nephi? When he said, animal sacrifices are done away with now but now I require the broken heart and a contrite spirit. Yeah. How do you square that? Yeah, that's a really good question and that's a big question. I'm going to start with the broken heart and a contrite spirit because people read that and they'll be like ah, this is like a new thing when in fact broken heart and a contrite spirit.

3:14:26 It that's an old thing, right? That's in Deuteronomy, mmm, you know, okay. Actually have I know you came to the restoration Torah conference. Someone took mine, is that right? I wish I would. I have your girl, bring you another one. All right, so now this one, but last year, my talk was talk. I gave was about, animal sacrifice specifically and, and I talked about that that Book of Mormon verse that specific book and a in 3rd Nephi. So I'm going to refer to that. I'm sure.

3:15:09 So there's there's several several things going on, I'm going to read that stuff. 3rd Nephi chapter 9, verse 17, through 19. Behold by me, Redemption cometh. And In Me Is law of Moses. Fulfilled. I am the light and life of the world. I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end and you shall offer open to me. No more shedding of blood. Yeah. Your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away for. I will accept. None of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings. Okay, so we have like the standard interpretation of that is at odds with what Joseph just said, right? And it also is at odds with what Malachi and Isaiah and Ezekiel say So so yeah, we have to harmonize that and one way I would say is to accept that God has different plans and like he said, yes, do sacrifice note.

3:16:23 Now, I won't accept that now, it's actually Wicked but in the future that will be righteous again. And I don't really like that kind of a God. You know, that's, that's the Greek. That's the Greek God, because their gods are fickle. So, so my my interpretation to that is that we can look at some of these words with the care, right? Axioms. Instead of the Greek axioms, carrot, axioms, are everything that Every scripture that's given has to harmonize with the previously given scripture because God is constant. So we'll take one first one in me. The law of Moses is fulfilled.

3:17:14 So in English fulfilled can has a range of meanings. Like you look up the dictionary. They'll be three or four. True definition or something, right. The one that we latch onto with our Greek understanding is fulfilled, beans wrapped up finished done, right? But if we're looking at, It through Hebrew eyes, we might read that and say fulfilled means means he did it not going to Dunaway. This is like when when Jesus goes to John the Baptist and says, baptize me.

3:17:56 John says not worry. Not worthy to unlatch your shoe Jesus says, suffer it. So, you know, for we must do this to fulfill all righteousness, right? So when we read fulfill, Jesus, fulfilled, all righteousness. Right there, does that mean that he did away with righteousness or I mean, he performed the righteousness, you performed it performed it. Yeah. And when Jesus, so, I believe when Jesus says in me is the law of Moses fulfilled. That means a couple of things but not, but in a positive sense, not a negative one, is that he came to set an example for us. We believe that like, it's sure he was sinless.

3:18:39 That means he kept the whole law. He did the whole law and not only not only do the whole law, but he showed us. what the law meant and to remind us that the law was pointing to him and, and also reminds us not to be concerned or at least not overly concerned with like, the legalistic minutiae of the lie about, how long water has been touching that flower before it goes in the oven, like, that is not what it's about is about what the Word say it's about getting rid of the Traditions, is about loving your God, and loving your neighbor, and all the other Commandments, hang on these things, right? So that is the sense that which he fulfilled its, that he actually did it set an example for us and showed us how to interpret the meaning of the law in the way, it was intended. Okay.

3:19:43 So there's so there's one. Okay, now, I like to point out that this this verse is book in The Book of Mormon is actually well, I have to back up a little bit because I'm I don't believe that the Book of Mormon is Perfect. I do believe what Jesus said. It's the most correct book, and it will bring us closer to God by abiding by its precepts. Okay? Don't have any problem with that but the Book of Mormon authors themselves, say a bunch of times if there's anything wrong with this. Like they're the errors of men don't condemn this because you found an error in it right, you know I'm talking about you, okay? So so here's so we have a saying in English. More is better, right?

3:20:39 Okay, so Jesus says, well, let me back up, so I don't know if you've ever if you've ever tried to translate something to a different language, you know, It's tricky because you'll read a word in the foreign language and that has a range will have a range of meetings. You look in the in dictionary and there's four, definitions for it and you have to pick one and then put it into English and you'll pick an English word and it has a range of meanings to and you can get The wrong idea. Sure translating pretty quickly. If you get a few steps off, I mean it's kind of like the yeah serving thing we talked about.

3:21:21 So so so just to demonstrate this, there's a verse in the New Testament. In first Timothy, it says a bishop, then must be blameless the husband of one wife. Okay, you know that scripture. Can I do. Okay. So in Greek, the the word one is Mia. And in Greek has kind of a range of meanings and we could translate it different ways. It can mean it could be translated as one, which is what it is. In the King James. It could be translated as a, okay, and it can also be translated as first Which also means one.

3:22:02 Like sometimes sometimes those mean, the same thing, right? If someone tells you you're a number one that also means your first, right? Because you, you won the race or whatever, right? And one also means a sometimes. Give me give me one water. Give me a water. Those mean the same thing. So sometimes they overlap, but if we put those into this verse, you know, say a bishop must be Husband of one wife or Bishop must be the husband of a wife or a, bishop must be the husband of his first wife, those all have different meanings. Now, if it's the husband of one wife, then it's like prohibition on polygamy, right?

3:22:48 If it's the bishop must be the husband of a wife, then, that means no Bachelors, right? He's gotta be Mary taught me married. And if it's a, bishop must be the husband of his first wife. That means he can't have been divorced, right? It's a Efficient. So probation on polygamy, bachelorhood or divorced like those are all very different and and you could make and people do make Arguments for which is the proper way. And I think that's where understanding the culture in which it's coming out of bounds. So actually finally right because when we if you look at that verse with Greek and Roman eyes then then you say it's brought attention upon flicking.

3:23:30 Yeah. I think I think that given the context of this and also knowing what the law says, about polygamy means which is allowed I think that it is better translated his first wife in other words like if if a man can't keep his marriage together he should not be managing the congregation. I would agree with you and I think it probably Yeah, I think I think the, the standard there would be given what we know about Jewish tradition. Yeah. Judaism is that he's got to be married and never have been divorced.

3:24:13 Yeah. Right or pop or possibly a wife at least, right? Because you got to be able to handle relationships. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. So, but that will depend on whether we're looking at this with Greek or Hebrew eyes, we can read the same thing and come to Very different conclusions. So now we don't have the gold plates, right? Okay. We know that they were written in. They were written in Hebrew with a different script, right? It was Hebrew written with reformed Egyptian, but it was still Hebrew. It's like, you know, the desert alphabet is. Yeah, yep.

3:24:56 I know what it is. Yep. So I don't know it. No, but I know what it is. Yeah. The desert alphabet is not another language. No, it is English written with a different, alphabet right? Which is what, and it is actually compressed compared to the Latin of, right? That which is what reformed Egyptian was, it was Hebrew, right? So for an alphabet, that's exactly right. So even though we don't know, We don't have plates to know. Excuse me. Um, what was said we can kind of, we can look in the Old Testament and see where the word more was written in the Old Testament. And we find a Hebrew word, yo, tear. And and like the Greek word, Mia that I just said about Timothy, like, yo tear has a range of meanings and it can mean more but also mean better or greater.

3:25:53 Okay, and sometimes more and better are the same thing, I feel more is better, right? But if I put these different senses of the word into a different sentence, they can mean different things. So, if I said King Solomon, had more wisdom than any King before him or King Solomon, had greater wisdom than any King before him, those mean the same thing, right? But if I, if I now put it up, put it into The Book of Mormon sentence, ye shall offer up unto me. No more shedding of blood or you will offer up unto me. No greater or no better shedding of blood. Okay.

3:26:37 Then that means something different. Right. That means so, 11 means a Prohibition on sacrifice and also kind of a contradiction to what was previously revealed. Yield the other way of looking at it and understanding that maybe the word could be better. Chosen, the other one is like a magnification of the awesomeness of the atonement which he just had performed like you will offer to me. No greater shedding of blood. Like then what I have just done. Okay, so now we can we could go through the rest of that verse but the idea is something like that. Like what?

3:27:23 it with the Timothy and what we did with more more versus greater With the rest of that verse. And, you know, I will I will freely admit. That there are plenty of times in both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon where it seems like God has changed his plan. Like if you read it as within the way that we've been trained to read it, you can make a good argument, no doubt. But for me I would rather wrestle with the verse a little bit and and try to see if I can understand it in a Hebrew way that will harmonize with everything that was previously given.

3:28:16 Okay, so that I don't have an inconstant fickle. You can just change what was righteous one day into something? That's unacceptable or Wicked the next day. Right? Right. So I don't want the definition because as I said I said back to being like sin is breaking the law. But if the law is changing, that means the definition of what sin is is changing. Which means the definition of what is righteous is changing. That makes sense and I would, I would rather wrestle with the scriptures and maybe and maybe look at something that maybe is a little less obvious. Yes, of an interpretation but that makes it harmonize with those previous, not giving them, that makes sense. So we could go through the other parts of that. But but each of this read my top. I'll give ya get the rest of it.

3:29:05 Is that something that you can maybe send me a link to and I'll put it in the notes, so the yeah? Sure. Yeah, that's a great. Okay, so so back to like, what the law of Moses is like an LDS Sunday school. I remember very distinctly having this lesson. And we looked at like what we do on Sunday, right? To go to church and to worship and the teacher told us about all these ways that we are actually breaking the law of Moses. For example, like breaking the bread, for the sacrament into bite-sized pieces, breaking the law of Moses. You know, writing in your journal or in the scriptures or writing a tithing slip against the law of Moses.

3:29:47 Here, tying your shoes on tying your shoes tying your Necktie and untying it. All those things are actually violations of the law of Moses and he went through several others and in one sense that lesson was, I mean it was eye-opening. It was kind of like well that that crazy law of Moses, you know. But but I didn't I didn't know enough to know that none of those things are in the scriptures. No, those are all rabbinic traditions. That have been elevated. I wouldn't even say to the level of commanders, their elevated above note from because the their traditions and and I'm not I'm I don't want to say anything bad about traditions for tradition sake.

3:30:38 I said, Traditions are necessary, Traditions are beautiful, but when Traditions get elevated to the point of superseding Commandments, then they are then they're all problem. It was a problem. That's Right. So so you know all kinds of things that you've heard about and you probably think about like Christians. Think like Jews say this is the law of Moses and Christians. Agree. Yeah that is the law of Moses. We don't want to do that. You know eating meat and milk together, having separate utensils or even separate kitchens for you know, meat milk and also won the other separate things that are not contaminated with leaven. Making multi-unit for Passover, you know, washing your hands in a particular manner, wearing the yarmulke or the kippah all the time.

3:31:28 Making your Gentile servants work on the Sabbath even though, you know, right. There's just a million things in 2002 and none and none of those are what God revealed to Moses. Write every single one of those is the those things I listed are the traditions of the elders and Jesus was criticized for breaking the traditions of the elders. A lot of family. Yeah. Right. So So where did these come from? Well, these things were these Traditions were alive and well in Jesus a day. Mhm but they were all written down after the temple was destroyed in Jerusalem.

3:32:17 The You know, the priests and the rabbi's are like our temples just been destroyed. We are not going to be able to keep the Commandments as we understand them and neither will our children. We don't see this being corrected anytime soon so we'd better write all these things down so we don't get forgotten. And so they wrote down all of the oral traditions in a book called The Mission as actually that you know, several volumes against And then and then, you know that was like from the time of the temple destruction, feel about 200 or so and then from then to about 500 or so the gemara was a written which is like commentary on the mishnah and those together are What's called the talmud.

3:33:10 And this is the, this is the oral traditions. This is this is literally the traditions of the elders, look codified. And And I don't, I don't think that was started out of a bad spot, right? I think, I think that was started out of a feeling of necessity, because beforehand, Israel, had a common. Land. They had common laws. Now, in the time of the Spore area, you are not going to be able to return to the temple. You are not going to be able to return to Israel anytime soon. So now I feel.

3:33:58 I think the the elders felt like we have to figure out a way to create social cohesion over vast expanses of strict case and time. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's where a lot of that comes from. Was this desire to Keep some sort of social cohesion. Yeah. And they did, and they have and they done occur terrific job of it. Yeah. Tremendous and there. There is certain Beauty, in some of those, one of the ones I was fascinated with, please was the one about not having milk and meat together. And when I asked Joel, Jules, dad seek, I was like, why you do that?

3:34:41 He's like, you never mixed life and death. Hmm ever. Yeah, ever and I was like, I get that I get that right and so there's there. There are certain Beauties in those and I don't want to just discredit them whole cloth without giving them their their props. So yeah. Right you know yeah well I'm glad you said that because there are there are there are beautiful things like so my family, when like there's a rabbinic tradition too. Candles on the evening before the Senate. That is not commanded anywhere but it's there are beautiful symbolisms with that. And also, there's a tradition to have bread and wine, you know, at the beginning of every Sabbath and they say these blessings and like my family does that. It's awesome.

3:35:36 But but I, but I just don't pretend, or assert that those are Commandments. Those are. Those are Traditions with beautiful meaning. And if someone else doesn't do that, then I'm not going to hit them over the head with copy of the talmud and say, this is a Commandment that the rabbi's gave us and they have authority to change or to add to the Commandments that God gave right. You know. So so, so that's, that's the, that's the Perpetual difficulty. And and I will say though, that because I don't want to be a hypocrite because Listen to this and be like, oh no, you told me something was I'm sure that I have done that before though.

3:36:20 You know that I have Put too much, emphasis weather with my family or with my friends and telling them about the way things are when they were not that way. So I apologize to anyone who I've done that, to please forgive me. It's, you know, it's a constant battle. Sure to keep ourselves right? Keep ourselves in check. Yeah, absolutely. But Jesus didn't Jesus, didn't really like this. No, yeah, so I'm going to read from Mark chapter 7, okay. Now, when the Pharisees gathered to him with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, they saw that, some of his disciples ate with hands. That were defiled.

3:37:03 That is unwashed for the Pharisees and all the Jews, do not eat, unless they wash their hands properly, holding to the tradition of the elders, and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat. Unless they wash. And there are many other Traditions that they observe such as the washing of Cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches and the Pharisees and the scribes asked him. Why do your disciples not walk, according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands and he said unto them. Well, did Isaiah prophesy of you Hypocrites, as it is written. This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, in vain, do they worship me teaching as doctrines the Commandments of men? So, I mean, this is what this was like, the first message to Joseph Smith, right?

3:37:56 Right. They drop near to me with their lips but their hearts are far from me. Yeah, that's quoting. That's the quote from Isaiah to write. They teach for doctrines the Commandments of men, right? And and he goes on further, you said, you actually says you leave the Commandment of God to hold to the tradition of men and he said unto them, you have a fine way. Of rejecting the Commandment of God in order to establish your tradition and then he gives them. So this is one example, the washing of hands, he gives them another one. Verse 10, for Moses said, honor your father, and your mother, and also, whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.

3:38:39 But you say, if a man tells his father or mother, whatever you would have gained from me, is korban. That is given to God, then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father and mother thus making the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down making void, the tradition of the were sorry. Thus making void the word of God by your Mission that you have handed down and many such things you do. so, so Jesus didn't have a lot of nice things to say about these Traditions that were Out of harmony with right?

3:39:22 What was revealed by God to Moses that he quotes, Moses? Right? So here's another, he goes on to talk about what defiles a person because the first thing was about eating with unwashed hands, right? And you need to like they say a prayer, right? I'd wash. There's that actually have this like a pitcher with two Hang-Ups and wash of one hand and then the other, you know, and then you and then you rinse, you know, or whatever. And and when my family celebrates Passover to like, and that's like part of the Seder, we do that, right? We wash our hands, rinse, wash, rinse dry. And but, but again, it's just important not to to realize that there's beautiful things about that and Like Jesus Does this at the Last Supper.

3:40:12 But he does it to their feet. Right, let's a towel himself and he washes their feet before the Passover. So that's like a beautiful thing to that's also not a Adamant. But Jesus does this beautiful thing. And so anyway, so it's fine to have beautiful Traditions, but when you start saying your disciples are defiled, because they are not keeping the tradition of the elders, then Jesus doesn't doesn't like that, you know, many hits back a little bit, then he hits back. Yeah, that's right. So here's an eye exam and he called the people to him again and said, hear me all you and understand. There is nothing outside a person that by going into, him can defile him. But the things that come out of a person are what defile him. And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable and he said unto them. Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside? Not defile him since it enters not into his heart, but into his stomach, and then is expelled.

3:41:16 And he said, what comes out of a person, is what defiles him for within out of the heart of man? Come evil thoughts, sexual immorality theft murder, adultery coveting, wickedness deceit, sensuality Envy, slander Pride, foolishness So I've heard this before and and even there are some Bibles that will some versions that we even add this in there. He read this with Greek eyes and you and it says Jesus says, all foods are clean Right. Go ahead and eat pork and shellfish, and horses, and snails, and whatever, but like that kind of entirely disregards the context, which is that Jesus is talking to a devout group of Israelites misguided because they love the traditions of the elders, but he's talking to Devout Israelites and what do you think?

3:42:14 They would say if he says, Eating swine, eating swine's flesh, eating horses. You know, eating Eagles, like none of that will defile. You getting upset? Yeah, that is, that is actually a clearly a violation of what Moses said, write what God Said through Moses, right? Okay. And and Jesus in another place, said anyone who teaches you to break even the smallest commandment Anyone who breaks the smallest Commandments and teaches other people to do that, they will be the least in the kingdom of heaven, right? Jesus is not telling people and also let me see the back even even if you believed that Jesus did away with the law. You don't believe that he did away with the law yet. Right?

3:43:06 And so and so if he was, if he had not yet done the atonement, right? At said, he was like and he was encouraging people to break the kosher dietary laws, he would be sent to be a sinner and then his sacrifice is invalidated because he's not a perfect, right, right, right. So, you know by saying, oh Jesus is saying everything all food is clean, like that is, that is, it would pre guys and entirely ignoring the hebraic context. So I'm going to give you so to help kind of you and maybe are your listeners to understand this. We're going to, I'm going to reframe Jesus as a little Parable here, a little bit.

3:43:47 So what if Jesus was speaking with some Mormons and some of them were complaining that his disciples had not washed their Temple garment in two days and that they were defiling the Garment and their covenants by disrespecting the Garvin the Garment. And then Jesus says to them. There is no garment on the outside of a person that by wearing can defile him, but things that come out of a person are what defile him. And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable and he said unto them. Then are you also without understanding, do you not see that? Whatever garment, a person wears on the outside, cannot defile him, and he said, what comes out of a person, is what defiles him for, from within out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft murder adultery. 03, coveting wickedness, deceit, sensuality Envy, slander Pride foolishness. So now so let's say he was he spoke this to this group of Mormons who know about the temple and the Garmin. And then there's some Christians who don't know about those things and they're reading this And you see Jesus say quote, there is no garment on the outside of a person that by wearing can defile him.

3:45:05 What are you going to think? Here's Think Jesus is doing away with modesty standards, right? Right in dress, right? Tight revealing promiscuous, clothing garments, which are garments, totally fine. It's what's on the inside that matters, right? Christians, don't know that. When Jesus uses the word garment that has A unique cultural meaning, right? He's not referring to any old clothing that the heathens might be wearing likewise, when Jesus says, Jesus talking about food, he's not talking about any old thing that the heathens might be here. I see what she's talking about. Things that Israelites are eating, right? You're clean, I get it.

3:45:48 It's Jesus is not saying anything you eat is fine. He's saying the things that you do eat Even if it's with unwashed hands that does not defile. You gotcha? No. I make sense? Okay. Absolutely so. But if we look at it with with Greek eyes were like, yeah, Jesus change things. And we can eat whatever we can eat ham for Easter now, because Jesus died or whatever. Yeah, yeah. But really got with Hebrew eyes and understand the context, you know, for original lists. That we realized. No, no, that's not what he's talking about. He's talking about just the Mission of our heart verse right versus these verses, the traditions of the elders.

3:46:29 Right now that makes Traditions, the others versus the condition of our heart versus what the Commandments say. Like, he's giving a sermon about how these things relate. I got, you know, that makes perfect sense. Okay. so, Yeah, I mentioned this but I'll read it now you and Matthew 5:17 Sermon on the Mount because it's almost it's almost like Jesus could see the future. Imagine that, huh? It's almost like you can see the future and he knew that people would make these accusations. About the law riding and about him teaching people that it took, you know, saying that it's okay to break the law, right? He knew that people would say that. So in verse Matthew 5:17, he says don't think that so I know what you're going to do.

3:47:28 But don't think they says think, not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. Yeah, and there's like there's another eye exam in there. What does Jesus? Need to fulfill the law. Same thing, when he says to John, we need to fulfill all righteousness. I can means I've come to do it, not to do away with it, right? Right, for verily, continuing in Matthew 4, verily. I say unto you actually, this is interesting. He says, he actually says right here, how long, the law will be. Enforced, says verily. I say unto you till Heaven and Earth pass away. Not One jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law. Till all be fulfilled, where whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments and teach men. So he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whosoever shall do and teach them the same Shall be Called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

3:48:29 So did Jesus do and teach the same? Yes, he did the Commandments and taught them. He's an and he did them actually. Better than anyone, right? So he will be by his own words, the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. Gotcha. So So not till so one. Jot jot or tittle, jot is the smallest Hebrew letter, that's the right geode and Tittle is a little it's like like the dot on an eye or the the cross on an F or something like that. It's like some little Mark that distinguishes between between a adalat and a rash in Hebrew, alphabet?

3:49:19 Right Deanne? And are they look very similar, A little bit that the dollop has a as a tittle has a little tail on it and the rash does not. So so you're saying not even one letter from what was written will be changed, or done away until Heaven and Earth pass away. So he's basically sent in the bounds that there is no out on this right there. These, these things are in force. Yeah, yeah. Now It's actually interesting, also, in The Sermon on the Mount, he warns about false prophets who come to you as wolves, like, wolves in sheep's clothing says, beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly.

3:50:07 They are ravening wolves. Yeah, now, there's a This goes along with the harmonization of the scriptures and that things that come later have to harmonize with what came before. So that goes with like ideas and definitions of things too. And there's there's a principle which is useful. It's called the principle of first mention And that is like when the scriptures use a term. Usually if you want to know what that means, like you go back and look at when that term first appeared in the scriptures and go, you know, and that will kind of Enlighten you to what the the later author is talking about.

3:50:53 Okay, so wolves, in fact, ravening wolves. Even like the first time that two mentioned is in Ezekiel actually. Jesus is quoting from Ezekiel. So so you want to know what false prophets are. Go to Ezekiel 22 verse 23 through 28, Ezekiel says and the word of the Lord came unto me saying, there is a conspiracy of her profits in the midst. Thereof like a roaring lion, ravening the Plitt, the prey, they have devoured Souls, they have taken the treasure and the precious things.

3:51:34 And they have made her many widows in the midst thereof. Her priests have violated my law. They have profaned my holy things, they have put no difference between the holy and the profane neither have. They showed difference between clean and unclean. They have shut their eyes from keeping my Sabbath's so Diane profaned among them. Her Prince's in the midst. Thereof are like wolves ravening the prey to shed blood and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain and her prophets have white wash these Deeds for them with a false vision and divining lies unto them saying thus, saith the Lord God when the Lord hath not spoken, so he says, you know, conspiracy between the prophets, the priests and the princes, and, you know, the Roaring Lion ravening and the Wolf ravening says, they they abuse widows, you know, they're thieves and they also have violated my law and not taught people, what the difference between clean and unclean and, and have a disc in your have disregarded, the Sabbath switch, the feasts are among the Sabbath's So those are, those are the false prophets that Jesus says, beware of trying to find something in the teachings of the prophets of the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and I'll I'll find it and I'll put it on the website.

3:52:55 But Joseph Smith actually says look if a prophet Contends against or tries to change something that former Prophet said, some Mark of a false prophet. That's right. And I think that, that is a very useful standard, not just in this discussion, but in all things and looking and saying, does this man who claims to be a prophet? Is he able to measure up to this? Because if he takes away, or does away with anything that is contrary It is forever. Yeah, yeah. That's that's a dead giveaway.

3:53:35 Yeah. That is a, as an axiom, right? Yep. Things must harmonize with what was going previously. So, fluently, okay, I'm almost done with my notes, although we could talk longer. But no, you're good. Now I'm going to talk now about the big lie. Okay. Okay, the big lie and this is In large part, why Jews at least one big factor? Why Jews have not accepted Jesus as Messiah? And that is this idea that the law was doing. Because you know that was they were commanded to keep the law forever throughout their generations. And then these guys come along and say actually you know that whole Covenant thing that God made with you and your ancestors to do this forever, like you can still be part of the Covenant without having to do without having to keep the terms of the Covenant and that just sounds crazy. And it is so okay.

3:54:52 So I'm we'll talk. We'll talk about Stephen first. So, of course. Stephen was stoned, right? I mean, have you. I mean have you go for me to Acts chapter 6? Do you know what charge they stoned him on? I do not not so top of my head you'll find it there Acts chapter 6, verse? Let's see. 10 through 14. Okay and they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.

3:55:35 Then the Civil War and suborning suborn Men, which said, we have heard him speak Blasphemous words against Moses and against God and they stirred up the people and the elders and the scribes and came up, Came Upon him and caught him and brought him to the council and set up set up false Witnesses. Which said this man ceaseth ceaseth not to speak Blasphemous words against the holy place and the law. We have heard him say that Jesus of Nazareth, shall destroy this place and shall charge the Customs change. Excuse me, change the Customs, which Moses delivered us.

3:56:16 Okay. So Sabor keep that open, let's talk about a couple things so it says they suborned men. So, that is a legal term. That means to bribe or compel someone to commit a crime, like secretly like to commit perjury. Okay, so they basically the bride. these men to be false witness that it says specifically Verse 13, says specifically, Luke, Luke who's the author of Acts says, these were false Witnesses, and what did they testify that? Stephen, and Jesus. So we have heard him say that Jesus of Nazareth, shall destroy this place Lucy.

3:57:04 He speaks he sees verse 13. Ceaseth not to speak Blasphemous words against his holy place and the law, right? And we've heard him say that Jesus will change the Customs, which Moses delivered to us. And Luke, specifically tells us these were false witnesses. That was a lie. Steven never said that. And Jesus never said that, but that is the charge that they state, that they upon which they stoned him. Was that he said the law would be done away or be changed, right? Okay. So why did they Stone him?

3:57:45 Well that goes to Deuteronomy chapter 13, which says this paraphrase this it's basically one of the tests for you can turn there if you like Like one of the tests for a true prophet and this goes to what Jesus said about false prophets. But in Deuteronomy 13 it says, even if there's a prophet who comes to you and works miracles, Yeah, does wonders tells the future talks about visions and dreams, they've had, but if even if they do Miracles and then they tell you, let's worship a different God, or they turn you away from the Commandments and say, let's worship God in a different way.

3:58:33 Then they are guilty of blasphemy. And I am doing this to test you to see if you will be faithful. So this is, this is like, I mean, this is, this is a marriage, you know, right? Israel is the bride, right. The Lord is the husband, and there's other men out there. And so he's like, saying, even if there's another guy who comes and he's got bigger biceps or seems to have, you know, a better paying job. Like I expect you to be faithful to me even if right, even if a prophet comes and they do they do something miraculous, right? But they tell you to not be faithful to me. You will know that they are false problem. Right?

3:59:17 And so so but then Christianity comes along and tells Judaism. Hey, we got this guy. He did all these Miracles and guess what? He said, you don't need to be faithful. In the way that God has commanded your ancestor to be faithful anymore and but in Deuteronomy 13 it says no. This is a test and it might be ruffle some feathers. But I'll say that the way that Christianity is presented Jewish people are being obedient to God in rejecting it because sure I can see that.

3:59:58 Yeah so so that was a that was a lie. Luke says it was a lie. What they said they stoned him anyway and this now this is really ironic because because Paul was involved directly. Hmm? Right. And usually when when people and there's been books written about Out this about how Paul like changed Christianity. From being sect of Judaism to the anti-semitic, anti-law religion that it is now, right? And that Paul is really the one who said, you know, the law is done away. He's the one who kind of proclaimed the sure. And so, this is really, this is really ironic because that what Luke says is that is the what they suborn, the false witness has to say about Steven, and about Jesus. And this is getting said about Paul. So let me ask you this if I'm understand is I'm trying to understand here so are you making the assertion that Paul wasn't really an apostle?

4:01:05 So to speak. Oh no, no, I believe he was an apostle but he did not. He also did not do away or say that the law was done away. Okay. So maybe some of Paul's words were twisted and misunderstood. Yeah, actually When you read the scriptures, like the scriptures will quote, other like up with certain profit, will quote another prophets all the time. So we have that. We have some sometimes an author of scripture will even like recommend something else. Sure Malachi says, Jesus did it.

4:01:45 Yeah, Jesus says, read Isaiah and read the other prophets and Malachi says remember what Moses did and but so, Authors, they'll quote one another and recommend one another, but Paul is the only author that another author actually gives a warning about, okay, so this is in second Peter so it's going to go to Second heater there. Okay.

4:02:28 Second Peter 3 Peters talking about the second coming verse 14, there says wherefore beloved seeing that you look forward for such things. Be diligent that you may be found of him in peace without spot and blameless talking about when the Lord comes again. And then he says, in verse 15 and account that the long-suffering of Our Lord is salvation. Even as our beloved brother Paul is on page, 1554 sure. They're okay.

4:03:15 Even as our I'm in verse 15, even as our beloved brother, Paul. Also, according to the wisdom, given unto him has written unto you. As also in his Epistles, So in, in his writings, he's also talking about these things speaking in them of things in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest as they do, the other scriptures unto their own destruction. Ye therefore beloved seeing ye the, you know these things before, in other words, I'm warning you about reading. I'm warning, you about reading the letters of Paul because they have things that are To understand and things that are rested and twisted.

4:04:02 So but in verse 17 seeing that, you know, these things beforehand, beware lest, ye also being led away with the error of the wicked fall from your own steadfastness. Wow. Now, the error, the in, In the word there for Wicked is, I don't have a greeter in front of me but it is, it is translated in other places in other versions as lawlessness. So he says in Paul, there are things that are hard to be understood.

4:04:42 I'm some people twist them and I'm warning you ahead of time. When you read the letters of Paul don't don't get trapped in the error of lawlessness. And fall from your own steadfastness, -2 to the word now. So, so Paul Paul is actually accused of this all the time and he knows that he's accused of this, but he has his very when you read the letters of Paul, he almost seems Like multiple personalities sometimes because he's going back and forth between like, what? Good is the law.

4:05:24 Nothing at all. Like, it's by Grace. Yeah. Does that mean? But then he's like, does that mean that we get rid of the law? No way. We keep the law, you know? Right. And so he has this is very fine line that he's drawing between. Trying to get people to understand that, the law does not save them. That that is Messiahs job, which is true, and on one hand, and on the other hand, saying that the Torah, the law is still applicable and good, and we will be blessed if we keep this. But that's not what saved us. You know, Jesus is what saves us but still these things are still these things are expected of us and we will be blessed if we, if we walk in in this way.

4:06:13 Gotcha, so so read just one. One thing to maybe two things. Well, we'll do one thing in Acts. Acts chapter. 21. Okay, let's see, ya 21. Let's see. Verse 18.

4:06:54 Okay, so now Paul Paul has just been on one of his missions, and he's coming back to Jerusalem to report, and starting Verse 18. And the day following Paul went in with us on to James and all the elders were present. And when he had saluted them and declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. And when they heard it, they glorify the Lord and said unto him said unto him, thou See us brother, how many thousands of Jews there are, which believe and they're all zealous for the law. Okay, so it's like there's a bunch of bunch of converts here and they are zealous like they love the law and and think of the law, the same way that we do actually they you know, James and all the apostles they were all Jews and they loved the law to they felt like what the psalmist said that this is the laws. Sweet.

4:07:50 Delicious, good and righteous and better than gold. So says you see all these thousands of Jews which believed and there's Ellis for the law in verse 21 and they are informed of their informed of the or about thee that thou teach us all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake. Moses saying that they ought not circumcise the children and neither to walk after the Customs. What is it? Therefore, the multitude must needs come together for. They will hear that that your come to Jerusalem. Do therefore, this they have a plan there. Like, word has been getting around this lie, that was told about Stephen, with these false Witnesses, has been getting around around about Paul as well. And so they come up with a plan.

4:08:38 This is what we're going to do to show everyone that this lie is not true. That yes, it is a change in the way that we have to think. Because we've been focusing on the law, the law, the law. And now Messiah has come and we need to realize that salvation is in him, and not in the log on the law, right? So there is this shift and it's not what we were expecting and and, and Jesus didn't conquer the Romans and so, but he fulfilled these other prophecies, you know? And so there definitely is a shift in thinking but what doesn't mean that we're abandoning the scriptures we just we understand them a little differently. But word is getting around that Paul that you're telling people to, to avoid to abandon the law to forsake. Moses says not to circumcise and not Walker after the Customs. So, verse 23, this is their plan. Do therefore this that we say to thee, we have four men which have a value on them.

4:09:39 So these are these are men who have taken a Nazarite vow, okay, okay. And you do this nazirite vow and then you don't cut your hair like Samson. That's right. And then when your vow is completed, then you're supposed to go to the temple and offer offerings and like, and this will complete your vow. This is like an this is You know, this is, you know, intimately connected with the law of Moses. So he says, we have four men, which have a vow on them, take them and purify thyself with them and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads. And all may know that those things whereof, they were informed concerning the are nothing but that, thou thyself also walk us toward early and keep us the law.

4:10:27 So like do this like well we're going to have you pay for and you be at charges with them, you are going to pay for their offerings. You're going to take him to the temple, everyone's going to purify themselves, we're going to do this public thing so that everyone knows that the rumors that they were informed about our nothing but that you walk orderly and keep the law and and and also encourage other people to keep belong to. Now, they do that. And but the LIE is too strong, they do that and this is when Paul gets arrested because they go there to the temple. There's a big Riot right there like this man is you know, rise blasphemer. And he's desecrating the holy Place. Paul Zak no no, the Romans, come in and Paul's arrested and you know, it goes from there.

4:11:18 But but this lie was applied to Stephen false Witnesses. Is flat out here in Acts, we read about this LIE, there's rumor that was about Paul, we read in Peter, where he warns the people who are reading. Paul's letters says there are things that are hard to understand but don't fall known. Don't get pulled into the error of lawlessness because of the things that Paul said, that's not what he's that's not what he's saying. But you know, his converts were Greek. Right around it, and whatever. And and and eventually. This is part of this is part of the Great apostasy at the count, you know?

4:12:07 There's all kinds of persecution of sure the Jews and early Christians. Yep. But the Jews in particular and what happened is the Christians who are largely, Gentiles started to see what was happening to the Jews, under the Roman Authority. And said, we are going to distance ourselves from our Jewish brothers and sisters. So that we can avoid persecution. We're going to, we're going to Cave to what the government to government pressure. That's definitely do avoid persecution. Ocean. Okay? And so I so they did that and then, you know, set a couple centuries go by and eventually like Constantine right as you know, we're going to make, who was a sun, worshipper till the day he died. But he says, we're going to make he makes a political move. Christianity is going to become the official religion of the Roman Empire.

4:13:02 And they have a they hold the First Council. Yeah, is the Nicene Council. Like 350. Yep. 350 or three 8350. Anyway, in that Council all of the like the Jewish Bishops are officially like Uninvited. They're not having any any Jewish Representatives, only Greek and Roman Bishops and representatives are allowed. And, you know, they come up with the Nicene Creed, which as a Mormon has some problems, but not that many, I mean, Like the Nicene Creed is like the Nicene Creed is not is like, you know, we believe in Jesus, that he came that he was born of a virgin that he was crucified, Rose 3 and the third day and ascended into heaven. And but the other things that are decided at the Nicene Council are that Christians are supposed to have nothing to do with its or anything Israelite.

4:14:03 And in fact, we are we want to have a clean, we fish. Really want to have no single point in common with the Jews, right? So we're going to, we're going to keep our Feast differently. We're going to command everyone. Not to observe the sabbath. Like, you must work on the Sabbath. If you're a Christian, you cannot celebrate Passover, celebrate Easter with Passover, and the way the Jews do it, we're going to have with their own way to calculate dates, and like, Every single thing, like we're going to, we're going to get rid of Hebrew scriptures, everything is going to be written in Greek, it was an abandonment of all things, Jewish.

4:14:45 Every, every possible thing that we can come up to make ourselves different, that is what the new Christian Church under other Constantine's direction. That is what we are officially going to do as the official position of the churches. We are not Israelite. Anyway that was in my view that was a big Part of the Great apostasy do it. We would have had to have been, right? Because again, if you can, if you can discredit the, the the origins of Jesus's time and place you can then rewrite it, however you want. It's that best suits you.

4:15:28 And let's not forget that, that Constantine's move was a political one. Right there is a certain amount of expediency and being monotheists, my Theistic, right? It makes being able much easier to. Yeah. It's much easier to get everybody in under that same Banner. So, no, it absolutely. Was, was a huge part of the Great apostasy. So let me ask you this, what is it? You have gained. As a Mormon. From going back to these these Jewish roots. Yeah I mean I think there's a there's like this richness to understanding the scriptures for one you know. There's there's all kinds of references in in all the scriptures to things that are foundational. In the Old Testament that if if you don't go back to these roots, you know, right?

4:16:35 If you don't go back to the roots then then you don't you don't really understand what you're doing or why or why the scriptures are saying this or that thing and you just I think you just miss out there's a lot of richness there and I have felt that it has been a blessing to me and my family To like the feasts in particular are beautiful things and have this like annual cycle where we go through and reminded of each of these times when God blessed our ancestors and these feasts have how they point to towards the atonement in various ways.

4:17:16 And it's just, so, just so fulfilling and meaningful and, and tying. And it's also There's there's the advantage I think of tying yourself to a written standard instead of, instead, of going off and being, you know, let about by every wind of doctrine mean tossed to and fro, right? We have, we have Roots. Have this on the back of the book here. I've looked quotation from Jacob, chapter 5, or he says, the problem part of the problem with the vineyard is that the Branches are outgrowing the roots, right? They become lofty.

4:18:02 And they they they've gotten bigger than the roots will allow them to. And, you know, there's a lots of ways to interpret Parables and they don't want to say that. And I think all of them are valid but one one interpretation is that the roots of the tree which is Israel. Right. And Godspeed, right. The roots. The tree are these ancient things written in the Torah and and we do not want to detach ourselves from that and and grow bigger on the, yeah. It get too big for our britches, so to speak. Yeah, you can become wild. That's right.

4:18:44 Another thing, and this this kind of goes to my My idea about the different branches of Mormonism like when I was in the LDS church, when I would read the the parable of the vineyard and Jacob five. I thought that the LDS church was the whole tree, right? Yeah. Funny how that gets phrase, didn't it? Yeah but the way I look at it now is that Elias church is a branch, it's a big Branch but it's a branch on the tree and there's all these other branches to But you know what, they all, they all share a trunk and Ryan strength, and so, but, and I think that if, if these different branches, can connect themselves to the trunk and The Roots, which are, which are our Israelite Heritage and the Torah, the written word of God, you know, the law, so to speak, then then they'll bring forth good fruit, no matter which branch there on right, you know.

4:19:47 And that's the The other thing that I've come to realize with this interpretation of the parable is that it's not the job of the branches to declare whether the fruit on another Branch or even on their own Branch. Like the branches, don't declare whether the fruit is good or not. That is the Lord of The Vineyard. He's the one that comes and looks at each branch and declares, right? This is good fruit. This is worth saving or this is bad fruit. Out, fruit disconnected from The Roots. I'm gonna yeah, it's going to be burned, right? So so I think it's fine to you, let everyone grow on whatever part of the tree, they've been grafted into or plant it on. And that's how you know that's another in. This is just another part of my world view now is You know, I knew from the time I was a child, you know, like we read the book of Mormon in Psych in the on the title page. It says this is for the Jews, right, right. And the Gentiles and the lame things and and I think about the Jews and you know we want we want to get them to join the church but the scriptures don't really say that. Like the scriptures say it's actually the other way around. Yeah.

4:21:05 The church. The Gentiles need to be grafted into Israel and not Israel grafted into the church. So that's I think important to remember too that we are Whether you know whether by lineage or by adoption, we want to be grafted into Israel. And we want to be Israelites, we want to do the things that the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the god of Israel has commanded us. And, you know, it's that can be kind of overwhelming sometimes. And and I will say one other thing too. And this is not exactly answering your question.

4:21:45 But But it took me a long time to come to where I am and also to kind of incorporate these different feasts and stuff. And it, you know, it took a long time to give up sausage to, you know, but sausage and bacon. But, you know, there's turkey bacon turkey, sausage, that's really good. So, I wasn't really good or should I just quit? No, no, it's good. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that's up to you, but I think that, you know, looking at it through looking at things with Hebrew eyes Israelite eyes is is a powerful sense of identity. And also there's a powerful sense for me.

4:22:27 Anyway, going back to the lectures on faith. There's a powerful sense of the Third Qualification for having faith. So, if you remember, says, there are three things necessary for any person to exercise faith in God, unto life, and salvation might be a paraphrase here. One is the idea that God exists To correct idea of his character and attributes three and knowledge that, the course of life that you're pursuing is in accordance with his will. So you, you you feel like by by tying yourself back to these judeo roots, you feel like you're that's giving you a clear path. A clear path.

4:23:16 That's right. And I'm not worried about I'm not worried. Any more about the decrees and whims of men, you know, right? And whether my you know gosh my leader is saying this but I don't it doesn't seem to match and I don't know I guess I'll just go with the leader you know, which is good. Yeah I mean Lee I don't want to have to say anything against leaders because Because hierarchy and Leadership is how we get things done. And, you know, and I'm independent now. So I kind of miss that, to be honest, some, there's some good really good things about leadership, but there are bad things that can come with the to.

4:24:00 We've talked about right abuses. So leadership needs to be tethered. To the word so that it can just run free. I give you a good litmus test, right? All the way around. Yes, that's right. That written law provides a litmus test to, which if you very outside of that. Yep. And and let's face it. As far as litmus test goes, the jail model might be one of the best around, right? I mean, it has survived. Yeah, eons and it has been responsible for the flourishing of many civilizations. Oh, yeah. So, As far as a litmus test, I'm not sure there's a better one out there. Yeah, I do want to say one more thing too. Is that in Mormonism?

4:24:42 Like we talked about the higher law, if we kind of mentioned this a little bit, the higher laws and the milk is attack things. And Melchizedek temples and nothing that I've said like should be construed to go against any of that in the least. Like I believe that the higher laws are all good and essential things too. Yeah, but that we know that we never graduate from the lower law, I'd trade it. That they are supposed to be together that the the keys of the priesthood consists of new getting the will of God. And in offering sacrifices like Joseph said, like they just they go together and you have to have because God is God, Is Not only interested in Our Salvation as individuals or maybe even as families, like our own Enlightenment, he wants us to have a good Society, right? And, and having a culture Society, a culture, a nation requires quote, the Lesser law, you have to know what to do. When someone steals, right when someone commits murder, and when there's manslaughter, and when someone is lying and there has to be judges and courts, And ideally we would all be Celestial beings wouldn't need that but but we Are Not Angels, right?

4:26:11 So we have laws. Yep. And and there's also but then there's also there's a Melchizedek things and ceiling and endowment and these higher principles that are that are good too, and but I don't believe that those should ever be seen as contradicting. Got you, you know, I know that one is a curse and the other is a blessing. Correct. It is true that when Moses came down with the tablets thing says they had, they had the high. Well, actually says, a lot of times when we read it, we think that it says it had the milk, is it except on it? And then Moses broke it and then went up and got the erotic stuff.

4:26:55 But if you read carefully, what it says it actually says that it had both ironic and Melchizedek stuff. And he broke it and then God had him like, rewrite, it everything that was on the first. Same stuff - because it extensive, the erotic stuff was there all along and he was intended to be given together with the milkovic stuff, but they were cursed not with the levitical law. They were cursed with the app being denied the milk hesitant. Yeah. No. I understand what you have to do. That makes perfect sense. Absolutely.

4:27:37 So let's say someone wanted to Get an idea of how to do a savior. Yeah, you know, they wanted to see the Passover. They want to know how to keep some of these things. Where do they go? They can come to their animal foundation and how do they find you? You know what, I think that we have a page on the fellowship locator, which is mostly Denver's another thing. So, we have a page on there, so we're in Lehi. Okay. So Lehigh is there have no Foundation. You click on the Snuffer, right? Fellowship?

4:28:18 Locator or I'll get my phone number. My, it's your call, bro. But and maybe not well, I think that it's actually on there. So I think there's a Facebook page, two of them. Oh yeah. Actually, there is, you know, I don't have Facebook so I don't, you know, track of that there is a Facebook page, actually, that's probably the best. Okay, so my wife, Melissa, she kind of monitors that Fect Facebook page there and the foundation. Everyone is, welcome to come to our feast and come see what we do and learn how to do it and learn why we do it. And we would we usually get pretty good crowd like usually have 60 or 70 people.

4:28:58 Nice come to these things from all kind of branches of Mormonism and so it's a good time. So, I got a question for you. What is the next major feast day coming up? Yeah, that's a good question. The next one is going to be a feast of trumpets and when is that, that's going to be in end of September. Okay? So that's Rosh Hashanah, you know, that's around the time. When, and then shortly after that is, You know, actually it's the might be the towards the end of September, beginning of October, I don't have the date right in front of me, but but we'll post that, you know, on the website, like the Facebook page and whatever, I got a question for you. I would love to have you back on, like a week before each feast day.

4:29:45 Oh, yeah. And let's and do like diving to the symbolism. I think of the symbolism of what, what's there are you interested in that at all? Yeah, I would be like if I'm available. Yeah, I would try to make myself a baby. Yeah. I would love that and we can dive in and we can kind of talk about what the symbolism is and what it is so that we can get a real good understanding of what's going on. And then because I think it would be a nice primer. Mainly for me to dive into those, and then go see it, right? When you catch those things? Yeah. And then, maybe be able to put that all together and see what it looks like, if your interests. Yeah, I understand you would be interested in that.

4:30:26 So but yeah, that if you, if you'd be up for it I would sure like to have you back on Jan that I love that. All right, look forward to that awesome. Is there anything else you want to go over? No, that's more than I intended. Dad and bro we've been at this for four hours and 30 minutes. Now to record my man, it was awesome. I get this. No, it's a good thing. That's a good thing, I'm glad we did it. So, all right. Well Josh again man, I appreciate you being here. So, okay, my pleasure. All right, folks, go check it out. The zarahemla foundation will talk to you next time. Bye.