Episode #15: One Continuous Covenant With Joshua Erickson

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On this episode of the podcast,
I sit down.

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Have a conversation with Joshua
Erickson.

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Now, I've known Joshua for just
about a year, he's a Mormon

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fundamentalist that takes a very
holistic view of Mormonism

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rather than seeing the gospel in
the restoration is being divided

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up in between the New and Old
Testaments.

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He tends to look at it as a
whole.

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Now, the outgrowth of having
this point of view, is that

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Joshua and his family practice
Mormonism in conjunction with

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holding many ancient Jewish
Traditions, including so, Bring

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the feast days as it's outlined
in the Old Testament.

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We cover that as well as touch
on other subjects such as

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America, being a continuation of
the story of the House of

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Israel.
That's next on this edition of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
So, I just want to take a moment

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to thank you.
The Listener, when I started

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listener, spending your time

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It feels like there's just never
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We're all squeezed right now
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keep listening and maybe keep
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we can continue to grow produce.
Good content and better audio

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Thank you.

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Your listing to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Well Josh, I can't appreciate
you enough being here, man.

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I know you're busy, you're you
got a family, a job.

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So the fact you may time here
man, I really, really appreciate

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it.
Yeah, my pleasure I've been

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looking forward to it for I
think you asked me like more

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than a month ago.
Yeah, it's been about.

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It's been about six to eight
weeks if I'm not mistaken.

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So real quick, we're you raised
in fundamentalism re always a

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Fundamentalist Yes or no?
The answer is formal.

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Answer is no definitely not
raising fundamentalism as raised

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in the LDS church you know I
don't know how many generations

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back my family goes but I have
people on both my mother and

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father's side.
You know that were on in the

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handcart companies among and
Willie handcart company even on

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both sides.
So as early as early as it goes,

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But I had a father who was a
scriptorium and loved loved the

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scriptures and he did his best
to kind of instill that in his

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children.
When I was a child and he would

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he would just go on and on
sometimes we would have our

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family home evenings or just you
know, family scripture study and

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we didn't do it.
Faithfully all the time.

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But but he did his best and but
he when he got going, he would

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just go for hours sometimes like
he could go for hours and it

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was, it was painful as a child,
a lot of times except for the

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times when he would turn it
around and he would say ask me

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questions and then that was fun.
And then you go for hours that

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way too and we just ask him
questions and he would talk

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about the gospel.
And he was all he was very

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faithful Latter-Day Saint and
was on had many callings and was

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on the High Council when he died
but he he loved everything about

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the gospel and we had
conversations that as I got

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older.
You know, when I Was preparing

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to go on a mission and after I'd
come back from a mission and we

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we talked about kind of the
deeper things so to speak.

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About polygamy about
consecration about kind of

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controversial things in church
history about Adam God.

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He told me about his experience
when he was a teenager he went

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out he and a cousin of his went
out into the woods and just

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like, camped out for three or
four days and they were fasting

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and trying to figure out The
testimonies and where they fit

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in and the gospel and stuff.
And, and his cousin brought

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along a copy of Volume 15, I
believe, of the millennial or of

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the millennial star.
Yep.

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Yep.
And anyway, they read that and

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that was all I opening and And
so, we talked about that and he

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told me actually that there's,
I'm the oldest of seven

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siblings.
Oh wow.

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Seven children but like he told
me he's like, okay.

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You're a lot of your brothers
and sisters like there.

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I've raised him in the church,
you know?

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And, and they're very churched
and I can't talk to them about

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these things.
So, but anyway, the so there was

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always that that kind of
awareness that there.

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More things to believe about the
gospel than the standard

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presentation in Sunday school
and then I'll come from your

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dad.
It was all for my dad.

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That's awesome.
So why is it you think that you

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the that your dad was able to
recognize that?

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What was it about you?
Where you kind of Clone to those

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things and maybe your siblings
didn't?

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Oh, I don't know.
That's a good question.

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Hey but why are people
interested in the things they're

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interested in, okay?
We don't even understand

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ourselves.
Sometimes take why we are Why we

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have the proclivities that we do
but I did and man so that was

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that was kind of a special thing
that my dad and I had those you

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talking about the gospel.
So at what point?

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Because so it sounds like your
dad's like quasi fundamentalist.

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Then would that be a fair?
A fair statement in the sense of

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he held to some of those
doctrines but was very much in

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support of the current
leadership within the old.

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Yes.
Absolutely.

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Yeah, I mean he talked to me
about, he went to BYU and got a

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degree in paleontology, and but
he while he was there at BYU

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there was a I don't remember the
name of the shop.

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There's like a print shop,
neighboring BYU campus and he

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would go and, and talk to the
owner.

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And I don't remember his name,
but the owner was a

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Fundamentalist.
Just polygamist and my dad would

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go and just talk with him and
he, and he would like, show my

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dad, all these cool documents
that he had copies of on, my dad

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had like, boxes full of these
historical, Mormon documents.

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That's so cool.
And And seat.

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So he just stayed all that stuff
up and yet just remained.

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Faithful in the church and I
don't know, he just wasn't

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really bothered, I guess.
I like he's like yeah, the

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church doesn't talk about the
stuff and the church has changed

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some things and I even disagree
with some of the changes.

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But but I'm but I have the
knowledge myself, I guess.

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And, and I am accountable to
myself and they're accountable

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to that for their actions and
and Doing good wherever I am.

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And I don't think that's at all
a sketchy place to be so to

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speak.
I think that, at least in my

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time in the LDS church 20-plus
years, a lot of the old-timers,

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I talk to her that way, right?
They had they knew about it,

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right?
But it didn't, it didn't affect

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their their participation in the
LDS church, which I think is a

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complete.
Completely valid way to go and I

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would dare to say that there's
probably quite a few folks out

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there.
So at what point do you begin to

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look and say, okay, something's
rye, and you feel like you need

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to go and become a fundamental.
Yeah, that's a good question.

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I probably never would have left
the church.

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In fact I still feel like I
didn't leave the church.

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Like they just they kicked me
out.

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Yeah.
Right. and I have a, Yeah.

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I mean I know people who feel
that way as I can, I never left

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the church.
They left me, you know, that

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kind of right.
So it was.

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Yeah I mean it really it really
was when I became cleanest.

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Okay.
So and that and even then

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actually, it was really funny.
I listened to your story and I

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we have a lot of things in
common actually, so I could give

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you a little story about that.
I just absolutely if you're up

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for it.
Yeah.

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So I was in, I was in Tooele And
we just, I just got out of

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graduate school.
I'm a chemist by training.

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So in Tooele and my wife,
Charlotte had a an online

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friend.
They met on a forum about like

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natural birth, okay?
And and stuff like that.

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So then eventually they met in
person.

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Over raw milk.
So Melissa, had a cow and she

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had, and she would sell raw
milk, you know, as quote pet

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food.
Right?

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Nice.
And so she had all this pet food

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that was going to go bad because
she'd gotten more than people

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wanted and she put out a message
on this forum saying come and

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get this pet food you know?
And so Charlotte did and and

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Melissa lived in erda which is
just a few miles down the road

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from Thule.
So they were friends for a

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number of years and Melissa had
a had, a really bad marriage

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and, and which eventually fell
apart.

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His actually her second
marriage.

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So, her first marriage was no
good either, and leading up to

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leading up to this, though.
My wife and I had felt like we

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need to prepare to have someone
live with us and we had had a

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lot of strong promptings in that
direction, you know, we had We

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had kind of gone our house ready
with guest bedrooms and furnish

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them even though there was no we
didn't really have guessed that

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often or anything like that.
We had gotten seven years food

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storage and all those things.
And we thought you know probably

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like one of my brother's is
going to like lose his job and

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his family is going to have to
come live with us or something

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like that.
Okay.

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And then at the same time we
didn't know this till later but

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Sir, she felt kind of the
opposite, like she felt like she

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is going to be moving leaving.
She should be eating down her

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food storage.
And, you know, having these

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these kind of conflicting or not
conflicting to each of us.

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But compared to one another,
these are kind of a kind of

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getting opposite instructions
right later on, we kind of

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compared this to Israel and
Joseph, okay, you know.

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Yeah.
Like Joseph is told to get the

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food storage and prepare for the
famine and Israel is told to go

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to Egypt, right?
So so anyway things come to a

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head with Melissa's bad marriage
and she's actually kicked out

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along with her children from a
previous marriage and and she

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basically has nowhere to go she
calls Charlotte and says you

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know asks actually she did not
ask anything.

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She was just telling Charlotte
about her predicament.

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Okay.
And then Charlotte doesn't say

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anything.
Charlotte kind of hangs up the

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phone, you know.
And then asks me says, hey

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Melissa needs a place to stay.
Do you think she could come stay

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with us?
And when Charlotte says that I

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want multiples, I have an
audible voice that says Melissa

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is coming to be your wife.
Let's go.

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Coming to your house to be your
way.

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Yeah and I knew yes and I don't
I don't express that at all.

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Anyway, I just I just say no
because you're allergic, I say

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to Charlotte that would be fine,
right?

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And we've got place and and her
kids can, you know, their it's

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close enough that they can just
commute to school and stuff and

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Erica and then I'm getting like
these roof kind of repeated

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promptings.
And this is craziness like

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Charles and I have talked about
plural marriage before.

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Like very little, it always
brings up negative emotions, you

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know, but so I'm like Lord, this
is no way.

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This is going to happen, like, I
and and I but at the same time I

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said, but I will do whatever you
want me to.

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00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,000
Like if I'm convinced that you
want me to do something, I will

226
00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:54,300
Do it, but I'm laying down
condition here.

227
00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:59,000
Like it has to be Charlotte's
idea, right?

228
00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:00,000
Yo, dude.
Yeah.

229
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,400
No, absolutely action.
Totally identified.

230
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,600
A.
And so, it's that, I say nothing

231
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,700
and listen, or kids move in and
it's, you know, weeks go by.

232
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,900
And I did not know, but
Charlotte at the same time with

233
00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:19,700
like she was getting pounded
with spiritual.

234
00:15:21,100 --> 00:15:25,200
His Revelations saying that
Melissa was supposed to be my

235
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,100
wife to, and, and she's really
confused.

236
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:34,500
Why I'm not saying anything.
You know, when it's like so

237
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:37,900
obvious to her, like this is
what's supposed to happen.

238
00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:45,400
And so, the very the very, very
first time we even talked about

239
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,500
the subject.
It's evening, like, we're

240
00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:54,300
getting ready for bed and
Charlotte says, this is her

241
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:56,200
opening line.
So are you going to marry

242
00:15:56,200 --> 00:16:00,200
Melissa?
You know, like I can't like

243
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,700
there's been no preparation like
this.

244
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:05,300
Just out of the blue.
Dude, I can totally relate to

245
00:16:05,308 --> 00:16:07,200
that.
For my story, you know, when

246
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,600
Ambrose, like, would you ever
think about taking Brenda's

247
00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,500
another wife?
I'm like, you know, that voice

248
00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:16,200
from that Old show, you know,
lost in space with the robot

249
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,900
danger.
Danger Will Robinson or you

250
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:24,500
know, Admiral Ackbar, it's a
trap so-so Yeah, no, I totally

251
00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:26,500
serious.
Yeah.

252
00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:33,200
I mean there was a There was
kind of a panicked, instant, and

253
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,200
then a calm.
And then I said, and then my

254
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,000
answer was, I'm like, well,
okay, like the cats out of the

255
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,600
bag now or whatever.
So my answer was to your

256
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,100
question.
Are you going to marry Melissa?

257
00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:52,100
My answer was, I don't know and
and then her immediate response

258
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:54,000
was.
You don't know how could, how do

259
00:16:54,000 --> 00:17:01,200
you not know?
I know and I said well she has

260
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,100
to say yes.
Right.

261
00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:05,099
So I don't know because it
depends on her.

262
00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:06,099
Right?
That's what I was thinking.

263
00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:08,300
So what's going on with Melissa?
This time.

264
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,800
Nothing.
Okay.

265
00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:13,800
Yeah.
And later, so later on so a few

266
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,099
days go by and Charlotte's like
like well, you gotta pick what

267
00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:21,900
are you going to do, you got,
you got to approach Melissa

268
00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:26,300
somehow and so, but Melissa's
got nothing, she does not feel

269
00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:32,000
that way at all.
And so I eventually a few days

270
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,400
later and I approached her and
have literally the most awkward

271
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,100
conversation of my entire life
and my wives like to make fun of

272
00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:43,600
me and talk about and tell this
story.

273
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,300
And I'm not going to repeat it
now because it's it's too

274
00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:48,100
embarrassing.
But anyway it you can imagine

275
00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:52,100
it's quite awkward and so he's
maybe I'll have them on the same

276
00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:58,600
to see Melissa, Melissa, I try
to have this and it does not go.

277
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:03,200
Well, as far as I'm concerned,
but she doesn't like, slap me or

278
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,400
anything.
It doesn't really plus doesn't

279
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:11,000
leave the room screaming, but
she says, like in her mind

280
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,000
there's like, simultaneously
like this one.

281
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,700
You doing, does Charlotte know
what is going on?

282
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,300
And also the psych a very
peaceful like just hold your

283
00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:31,200
tongue think about this and and
and don't do anything rash have

284
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:37,300
the same time, you know?
And so so we end up, I start

285
00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:40,000
talking about polygamy but it's
not, she's not really.

286
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,700
I could tell that she's not Been
prepared.

287
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:46,400
You know, she's not feeling the
same way so we end up talking

288
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:48,700
about knitting or something, you
know, and then I leave.

289
00:18:49,700 --> 00:18:53,700
So later, she goes to, she goes,
she like, I need to go to

290
00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:58,800
Charlotte and like Make sure the
Charlotte knows that her husband

291
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,400
is like a mirage me, right?
This is not appropriate or

292
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:09,200
whatever or potentially not
appropriate anyway so but anyway

293
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:15,600
it works out eventually and
Melissa feels like it was good

294
00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:25,300
that she wasn't.
That she wasn't thinking about

295
00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:32,200
marrying me, because in her mind
that kept her intentions pure,

296
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,300
because she was not like lusting
after someone else's husband or

297
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:42,500
something like Rye in any of it.
So eventually, you know, very

298
00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:44,700
shortly thereafter you, and
Melissa receives her own

299
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:53,900
manifestations, plural, and, and
and the rest is kind of History,

300
00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:58,900
you know, there's some things
that we anyway we that we

301
00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:04,300
haven't fully talked about, I
don't intend to hear but we know

302
00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:06,200
maybe yeah, whatever you're
comfortable with bro.

303
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,900
Anyway, we get married.
We'll see.

304
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:15,200
Joins a family and then there's
all sorts of all hell breaks

305
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,200
loose.
Oh, yeah, her her grown children

306
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,600
have problems with it.
Obviously, and a lot of that is

307
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,400
because they've been raised in
the church and raised by their

308
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,000
mother.
Who actually this is a funny

309
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:28,800
story.
I'll tell.

310
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,500
Okay.
So, About this time.

311
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:34,800
This is this is a this is like
during the rise of Denver

312
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:41,800
Snuffer, okay?
And and which we follow pretty

313
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,800
closely and we're involved in a
lot of the fellowships and stuff

314
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:50,200
that kind of cropped up around
that this is anyway, so

315
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,200
2008-2009 is that right?
Or is that will ya somewhere

316
00:20:54,200 --> 00:21:01,100
around there?
Okay, one of the things that of

317
00:21:01,108 --> 00:21:07,900
course Denver has taught not
initially but later on is

318
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:11,900
teaching kind of evolved to
basically say that polygamy, or

319
00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:16,900
at least polygamy as As we most
normally think of it was like an

320
00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:20,000
invention of Brigham Young, mmm,
right.

321
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:25,400
And that section 132 is probably
fabricated or at least partially

322
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,600
fabricated.
And so before this whole thing

323
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:34,300
happened with Melissa being
kicked out of her house by her

324
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:40,800
soon-to-be, ex-husband, Melissa
and Charlotte were in Melissa's

325
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,400
kitchen talking.
About like problems with the

326
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,300
church and stuff and just like,
kind of wondering where they

327
00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:50,400
need, where they were going to
go and what they're going to do

328
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,400
and whatever.
But they actually like

329
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,100
high-fived each other in their
kitchen.

330
00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:57,500
They tell the story they
high-five, you like, at least we

331
00:21:57,500 --> 00:21:58,900
will never gonna have to do
polygamy.

332
00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:06,400
Like, yeah, that's great.
So, super funny we kind of joke.

333
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,200
Sometimes, if we ever like wrote
a book, about our story that the

334
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,600
opening line would be, there
were Never two women more

335
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,400
opposed, right?
Yeah, wow, so wow.

336
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,200
So we're you already kind of on
your way out the door as far as

337
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,200
the church goes, then by the
time Melissa joins your family.

338
00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:27,800
No, not at all.
Not at all.

339
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,400
So you keep going to the LDS
church looting.

340
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:34,000
Yeah, I get the same thing.
Yeah, get it 100%.

341
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:43,900
So we we kept going actually
very shortly. well, I mentioned

342
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:46,500
there was, there was kind of
problems with Melissa's children

343
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:52,800
like she had taught them And
about the negative aspects of

344
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,600
gloomy and had been very
critical of people in their Ward

345
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,700
boundaries or in their school at
least who were known to be

346
00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:04,800
fundamentalists and she just had
nothing good to say about those

347
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,300
people and Chic like regrets
that now, you know, right.

348
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,200
But her children had been kind
of raised with that.

349
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:18,600
So anyway, So there was there
was there was a lot of friction

350
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,300
once things came out with her
teenage children.

351
00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:28,200
So we decided what would be best
is to just separate the families

352
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:36,500
and she could just stay in
Tooele because I was closer to

353
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:40,600
Gerda where her kids were going
to school still and Charlotte

354
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:45,400
would move to Oran which is
where I grew up and where my

355
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,700
dad's house It was and he had
just passed away not too long

356
00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:53,500
ago and so house was available.
Okay, my brother and his family

357
00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:57,400
were living there.
So, so we kind of moved in.

358
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,700
We kind of had the downstairs
and my brother had the upstairs.

359
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:05,200
Okay, how we did that for a long
time for a few for a long time,

360
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:11,400
a few years and then, and I'm
horrible with dates.

361
00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:16,600
So, you're good.
Few years and then, And then we

362
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,800
were we were still going to the
LDS church generally though what

363
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,900
would happen is so I would go
back and forth between Tooele

364
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:29,500
and Orem, right?
And so that was kind of a lot of

365
00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:34,500
driving, but but I would end up
in Orem on the weekend.

366
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:39,100
So I just go to church in Orem,
the war that I grew up in with

367
00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:44,900
Charlotte and sometimes not
always, but a lot of times like,

368
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,600
Would come down for the church
with us to and and we would just

369
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,300
sit together and I get the same
thing, the bench?

370
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:55,100
Yep.
Yep.

371
00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:59,600
I did the same thing.
Dude, in fact, I've never shared

372
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:06,900
this story on the podcast before
I will now, but so not only.

373
00:25:06,900 --> 00:25:08,700
Am I going to the LDS church?
I'm Elders.

374
00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:11,700
Quorum president?
Yeah, I was the, I was the ward

375
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:12,900
clerk.
Okay?

376
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:16,200
And you know, In the young men's
presidency.

377
00:25:16,300 --> 00:25:20,300
Yeah.
Well and Not because of

378
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:22,000
anything.
I did I don't want to make it

379
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,200
seem like it was something like
it because it wasn't but our

380
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,100
home teaching number started to
spike.

381
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:31,500
I mean, really well like up into
the 90s which is just unheard

382
00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:31,900
of.
Yeah.

383
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,800
In the LDS church and
realistically, I think it's just

384
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,800
because they're, they were a
good group of Brethren, right?

385
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,900
They were they loved each other
and they took care of each

386
00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:42,100
other.
And that's what I attribute that

387
00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:42,800
to.
Yeah.

388
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,000
But it gets so good that they
call an area seventy down to.

389
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,600
Come talk to me to find out what
Doing my goodness to have these

390
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,600
and I'm freaked out because at
this point, I am two years into

391
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,800
living plural, marriage, going
to the LDS church, going to the

392
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,200
temple.
And what we do is we'd all go to

393
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,500
the temple together.
I mean, we'd sit on the same

394
00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:08,100
bench together.
So the 70 comes in and I'll

395
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,100
never forget this Joshua, I'm
sitting down, and I'm like, he's

396
00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:13,500
gonna see through me, he's gonna
see through me.

397
00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:16,400
This thing's, we're gonna blow
this thing up right now.

398
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,900
Going to unravel and it's in
some ways.

399
00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:21,900
I was Kind of hoping for that
because I was sick of living and

400
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:23,900
be relief.
Yeah, I'm sick of living in the

401
00:26:23,900 --> 00:26:25,600
shadow so to speak, right?
Yeah.

402
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:29,400
And so he comes in and he talks
with me and he's like, what are

403
00:26:29,408 --> 00:26:31,200
you doing different?
And I'm like, I'm not doing

404
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:32,800
anything different.
I think it's just a good group

405
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,400
of Brethren and he just sits
back in his chair and he never

406
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,200
stops walking eyes with me.
I'm like, I'm done.

407
00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:42,500
I'm done.
Here comes, here, comes and 54,

408
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,500
you know, and he just looks at
me says I feel inspired to tell

409
00:26:45,500 --> 00:26:47,800
you, brother Sanders, whatever
you're doing in your personal

410
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:53,000
life, keep doing that.
And I was like, oh, you have no

411
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,600
idea what what you just said,
but I found it.

412
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,600
I found it fascinating, right?
And they never did.

413
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:05,100
Find out.
I had one old guy that

414
00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:08,300
approached me a guy, had a lot
of respect for and he caught me

415
00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:10,400
in the John of all places.
Yeah.

416
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:14,000
And I'm just getting, I'm just
walking out and he's walking in

417
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,700
and he kind of grabs me by my
shoulders and kind of puts me

418
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:19,000
back in.
I'm like, what, what the hell is

419
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,700
going on here?
And he just looks at me and he

420
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:29,300
goes, I know what's going on.
And as I'm just gonna leave it

421
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:33,900
at that and you just kind of
pass my shoulders and walks out.

422
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,100
And this guy had been a bishop a
stake president and he saw

423
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:42,000
through it all he's like, I know
what's going on and I was like,

424
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,800
well wait a second, you know, I
later talked to him a few months

425
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,200
later about it and a church
barbecue kind of off by herself.

426
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,100
So I'm like, why haven't you
told anybody?

427
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,300
And he said, if I tell anyone, I
have to wrestle with, Questions,

428
00:27:56,300 --> 00:27:59,400
I'm not ready to wrestle with
because when you teach, when you

429
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,000
give talks I feel the spirit.
And if you still have the spirit

430
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:10,100
while doing this, he's like I'm
I'm at a loss and I'm not ready

431
00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:13,300
to wrestle with these questions
and so, yeah.

432
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:15,300
No.
I can totally identify with with

433
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:18,600
that, with, with a lot of what
you said, they're interesting.

434
00:28:18,700 --> 00:28:22,800
So yeah, end up.
When does, when does this

435
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,900
finally all come out?
Yeah, your final.

436
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:27,600
Well, it was, it was like a
Savage her.

437
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,800
Yeah.
It was like a year and a half.

438
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,700
Okay, 18 months, give or take.
I said, I'm bad with dates.

439
00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:37,000
But, yeah, that we were just
attending church together and,

440
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,400
you know, I was getting callings
and Charlotte was getting

441
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,900
callings to, you know, she was
the choir pianist and relief

442
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:48,200
society teacher.
Melissa didn't have any

443
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,600
callings, because she She was
into Willa.

444
00:28:53,500 --> 00:29:02,200
But she would have gotten Comics
probably so and it's funny you

445
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,300
said talk about that old guy
there was it was one fellow in

446
00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:08,100
the ward.
Who at one point what it was

447
00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:10,300
getting close to.
The end came to my wife.

448
00:29:10,300 --> 00:29:13,600
Charlotte and just like without
like not saying anything else.

449
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,800
Just said you're a brave woman.
Wow.

450
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,000
And like, and I like, was he an
older Feller?

451
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,100
Yeah.
Yeah, I think they know where

452
00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:23,400
you live.
You know, it's like, kind of

453
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,500
like giving her this thumbs up.
I like it was.

454
00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:34,700
Anyway, so we were getting to
the point where like he was the

455
00:29:34,700 --> 00:29:40,100
the drama with extended family
members mostly with, Melissa's

456
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:44,000
kids, you know, Melissa's
family, that had that had

457
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:49,100
finally kind of calmed down.
And so then we, then we felt

458
00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:54,400
strong enough capable enough
Tough to kind of start telling

459
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,000
Charlotte family, and my family
as well, and kind of come out of

460
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,700
the closet, so to speak.
I guess you could say.

461
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,300
That's that's a big step, dude.
Yeah.

462
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,000
So anyway, we went to.
It was actually Thanksgiving.

463
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,800
We're at Charlotte's parents
house and we told them and it

464
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,300
went pretty well.
And we also, we also told them,

465
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:25,200
he said, you know, We have plans
to tell everyone else that

466
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:30,000
including the bishop like we're
going to tell the bishop but we

467
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,400
would like to tell them like on
our timetable like it's it's too

468
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,000
much to just on your we don't
want we don't want to rip the

469
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,600
Band-Aid off.
I do so to speak.

470
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:45,600
So he agreed to that, my
father-in-law but he just got an

471
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,500
itchy trigger finger and he's
actually friends like Long

472
00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:55,500
friends with our Bishop in Orem
so he just he actually didn't

473
00:30:55,500 --> 00:31:00,000
tell but he said, you need to
talk, you know, part of the

474
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,200
problem was to I'll say this
too, is my oldest daughter was

475
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:04,700
turning eight, she was getting
ready to be.

476
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:08,700
Baptized God she and my
father-in-law was worried that

477
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,300
that she was going to be
baptized by a wicked man.

478
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,400
You know I got I didn't didn't
and wanted to figure out some

479
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,400
way of keeping his promise while
also protecting his grandchild.

480
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,000
Yeah.
So so he's told something vague

481
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:29,800
to the bishop like Your your
your ward clerk has like some

482
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,300
worthiness problems or something
like that.

483
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:33,900
You need it talk to him about my
didn't say what it was, you

484
00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:39,000
know.
So but then anyway, but I think

485
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,400
he called back again and told
him no, these a polygamous.

486
00:31:42,500 --> 00:31:47,100
So yeah, just to want to make
sure that I wouldn't be able to

487
00:31:47,100 --> 00:31:49,100
wiggle out of it or some.
Sure, sure.

488
00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:53,400
So, anyway, that actually cause
some problems with our

489
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:57,900
relationship with my in-laws for
number of years, but things have

490
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:04,500
actually smooth out considerably
and they're very Supportive and

491
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,300
all that.
Now, and part of it, actually,

492
00:32:07,300 --> 00:32:13,300
I'm going to take a little
detour here, part of it is I

493
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:15,400
mean, there's I think there's a
lot of there's a lot of worry

494
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,800
because when you hear that
someone's becoming

495
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,800
fundamentalist or polygamist or
whatever, like the first thing

496
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,200
that comes into your mind is
Warren Jeffs.

497
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,600
Yeah.
All of the craziness, you know,

498
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:34,700
cultish kind of behaviors.
Also, he had a sister who like

499
00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:38,700
did crazy things too.
Like abandoned her her children

500
00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:44,000
to go become a plural wife
because she was Inst and then

501
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,100
that marriage just like was
awful and fell apart.

502
00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:50,400
And then she like married like
just loses like went from like

503
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,500
man-to-man and like her family
was and her life and her family

504
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:56,800
were just in tatters, in
tatters.

505
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,500
Yeah and so he saw nothing but
bad fruit from this.

506
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:04,400
So I don't really blame him, you
know, but now over time they've

507
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,200
seen that.
Actually we are quite stable and

508
00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:13,400
and even more stable than His
other children, right?

509
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,500
Who we were talking, before we
started recording, have actually

510
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,300
every single Mike.
My wife, Charlotte, she's the

511
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:24,700
only one of their children
that's Mormon, but that is even

512
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:28,300
religious, the others are
atheists, right?

513
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,300
Been totally reject everything.
And so, but that happened after

514
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:36,600
we after it was known that we
were polygamists.

515
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,600
So for a while, we were the
least favorite, but now we are

516
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,500
the now you're the most favorite
that.

517
00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:45,100
You chill though.
Absolutely 100% sauce.

518
00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:47,400
I don't know.
No, that's good stuff.

519
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,000
I so you have to go through the
Bishop's Court and all that.

520
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,400
Yeah, so I went to the High
Council, right?

521
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,100
Because I was, no, because it
would be some holder and my

522
00:33:57,100 --> 00:33:59,400
wives.
They were they both had a court

523
00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:03,700
separately.
But with just the bishopric and

524
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:11,600
we all attended Each other's
trials for the High Council.

525
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,199
I mean, there's enough, there's
nothing really to argue like

526
00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:21,400
they know they have, they have
no authority to make a decision.

527
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,199
The decision is already made.
Yeah, this is guarantee

528
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,400
automatic excommunication.
So, so there wasn't anything to

529
00:34:29,500 --> 00:34:31,300
it was no defense at trial in
name.

530
00:34:31,300 --> 00:34:34,100
Only correct.
Yeah, so it was a, it was a

531
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:36,100
formality.
And so we actually brought

532
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:39,400
Listen made had most make a
bunch of brownies.

533
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,900
Nice.
And we brought some milk and

534
00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:45,699
napkins and cups and we serve
Refreshments at the not the high

535
00:34:45,699 --> 00:34:48,300
counsel at the trial and it was
cordial.

536
00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:51,400
They basically asked questions
like, where's very honest and

537
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:57,700
said, you know, this was what we
it there are kind of some like

538
00:34:57,700 --> 00:34:59,700
you mentioned with that fellow
in your ward.

539
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:03,600
Like, there's like this,
dissonance because like, this is

540
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,400
such a great family and they do
so well in R callings.

541
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,000
And we did, we feel the spirit
when they talk in sacrum meeting

542
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:15,100
and we felt inspired to give
them these colleagues in the

543
00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:17,200
church.
Why when they were Wicked

544
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,600
supposedly, right?
Yeah.

545
00:35:18,700 --> 00:35:22,000
And so, you know, and so I kind
of just like reassured them

546
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,500
about all of that to I like like
you were absolutely like don't

547
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:30,600
doubt your inspiration to call
me to be the ward Clerk or the

548
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,700
Rio man presidency, like those
were actually inspired like I

549
00:35:33,700 --> 00:35:37,200
don't you don't want you to I
doubt any of that and, you know,

550
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:42,000
they asked how Well, I don't
want to get into all those

551
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,800
details I guess.
But you know why I think this is

552
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,900
okay and you know when the
church currently doesn't do it.

553
00:35:47,908 --> 00:35:50,300
And I we talked a little bit
about church history and just

554
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:55,600
about my our own Revelation and
and you know said we're just

555
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,300
this is just what were willing
to do.

556
00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:02,200
You know?
And they asked how one guy asks,

557
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,100
how are you like supporting two
families?

558
00:36:04,100 --> 00:36:07,000
I can't even believe it.
And like I told him, like I've

559
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,500
been blessed with actually
actually like Around the time

560
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:13,000
when listen showed up, I
actually got a different job

561
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,800
that like, was a significant pay
raise.

562
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,800
And so that's kind of like, not
what they're expecting to hear

563
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:25,400
either, you know, that right,
blessings, pour it out, but it

564
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,800
was, it was good.
And my Bishop came to and he was

565
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,200
very supportive to actually he's
his hands are also tied, you

566
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:38,300
know, but sure he came, he came
to the trial at the stake center

567
00:36:38,700 --> 00:36:41,400
and was just They're just
observing he wasn't

568
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,200
participating, you know?
And when they asked us to go out

569
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,400
of the room while they
deliberate, like he came out and

570
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,100
just talk to us to and stuff
anyway.

571
00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:54,700
So, when when I talk to my
Bishop first and I told him the

572
00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:59,200
story, he's like, he's like
well, I actually, I actually

573
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:06,700
don't doubt your testimony about
about what happened and he said,

574
00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:10,400
and maybe he's as a maybe Is
true.

575
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,200
Maybe you really were asked to
do that, but this is still going

576
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,700
to be consequences, you know?
It shows some spiritual maturity

577
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:20,500
on his part.
Oh absolutely, right.

578
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:26,200
I mean, because I think so often
is as well as LDS people we can

579
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,600
we can get correlated pretty
easy, right?

580
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:32,200
Yeah.
And good for him for being able

581
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,600
to think on his feet.
So to speak in that in that

582
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:35,600
moment.
Yeah.

583
00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:42,700
So he was a very friendly and
very Yeah, supportive.

584
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:49,200
I would say and he even for
example, You know, I got my

585
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,600
experimentation letter from the
stake but he's the one who gave

586
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,200
the letters to my wives, but he
told Charlotte, he said, I still

587
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,100
want you to be the choir
pianist.

588
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:05,100
Wow.
And, and you can still go, like,

589
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,800
visiting teaching.
Wow, took her took her out, and

590
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,700
you off as a Relief Society,
teacher true, but said, you can

591
00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:16,100
still play the piano in our
meetings and stuff.

592
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:20,000
And, and for a while, And then,
so even after we were

593
00:38:20,008 --> 00:38:24,200
excommunicated, we just kept
going to LDS meetings.

594
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,700
Wow.
And we were just not altogether

595
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,900
anything or no, not really.
It was a little still, no one,

596
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,100
no one really knew.
I mean, the bishop kept it to

597
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:42,200
himself, I think pretty well we
were kind of worried that word

598
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,600
would get around or we were we
thought they might like you

599
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,700
know, over the pulpit like You
know, warning, I tell everyone

600
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:52,500
about us but they didn't that
was never done.

601
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:56,900
So, so we kept going for a while
and of course, one of the

602
00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:00,500
stipulations is that you were
not allowed to have callings

603
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,100
generally although Charlotte was
still a Pianist and you know

604
00:39:05,107 --> 00:39:08,700
what, a lot not allowed to say
prayers or make comments in

605
00:39:08,700 --> 00:39:12,300
class or whatever and also,
we're not allowed to partake of

606
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,000
their Sacrament.
Gotcha.

607
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,300
So and I actually am totally
fine with that.

608
00:39:16,300 --> 00:39:19,600
I know some people are like I
know people who have been

609
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,900
excommunicated who are offended
by that but to me, it's like

610
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:26,700
that's their yeah, like, they
are in charge of their

611
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:27,800
Sacrament.
Yeah.

612
00:39:28,100 --> 00:39:31,200
And that's their stewardship and
that's not an abuse of their

613
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:32,600
power.
That's just their prerogative,

614
00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:35,900
right?
But at the same time, it is also

615
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:40,100
my stewardship and prerogative
to be in charge of my family.

616
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:42,700
Yep.
And so so what we would do is

617
00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:49,800
actually we would we just bring
our own sacrament Oh, and like,

618
00:39:49,900 --> 00:39:52,700
when they were eating their
bread, like, my family on our

619
00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:54,700
little bench like.we, would eat
our breath.

620
00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:57,400
But we did take their bread, we
would say, we decline it, but we

621
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,100
just eat our bread.
While they were eating their

622
00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:03,200
bread and we would have our, we
would have, we would have our

623
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,300
homemade wine while they were
having their right, their water.

624
00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:10,000
And we did that for a lot of
times.

625
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,100
And that's actually what got us
was actually what they kicked us

626
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:19,700
out for.
So that's at some point.

627
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,600
I don't remember how many my
actually is really funny.

628
00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:25,900
Let me, let me back up a little
bit.

629
00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:30,000
Sure, you tie my dad back into
this because not only was my dad

630
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,000
interested in Mormonism and the
restoration of the gospel and

631
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:39,400
all those things.
But he was also Lover of Israel

632
00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:45,300
and of and if you asked him
which of the standard Works was

633
00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:48,400
his favorite.
He would, he would without

634
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,500
question, see the Old Testament.
Okay.

635
00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:52,600
Which is kind of an unusual
thing because for a lot of

636
00:40:52,607 --> 00:40:56,000
people Old Testaments like this
boring stuff of.

637
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:59,200
So and so begat.
So, and so, and death penalties

638
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,700
for this and that and the other.
And anyway, but he loved the

639
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:06,900
symbolism and the meaning, and
the foundational stuff and the

640
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,500
Promises and Covenants the
prophecies which the Old

641
00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:14,100
Testament is just full of like
everything everything.

642
00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:20,100
The rest of the the cannon is
really Rests upon the foundation

643
00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:22,400
of the Old Testament.
You're 100% correct.

644
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,500
Some of my favorite times I can
remember I worked out east for a

645
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:30,000
while, back east on the eastern
shore of Maryland, not a good

646
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,400
buddy, whose dad was a rabbi.
And I would talk to him for

647
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,500
hours.
And I've often said, in every

648
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:40,300
LDS Ward they have to happen.
These are your rabbit.

649
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:44,700
There needs to be a rabbi
because there is so much oral

650
00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:50,600
tradition.
Oh, That that we don't have and

651
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:56,100
you can't really understand
where Jesus comes from, so to

652
00:41:56,100 --> 00:41:59,500
speak, or where the Book of
Mormon comes from unless you

653
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:04,800
have a healthy understanding of
the Old Testament, and Judaism.

654
00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:06,800
Yeah, as a whole, absolutely
not.

655
00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:08,300
I mean, I agree.
You can't get that.

656
00:42:08,300 --> 00:42:09,700
You can't have a.
Yeah.

657
00:42:10,100 --> 00:42:11,500
Anyway, I didn't mean to
interrupt.

658
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,700
No, that's great.
We're I want to go there

659
00:42:14,700 --> 00:42:16,300
eventually?
Yeah, that's yeah.

660
00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:23,800
So when he was BYU student, he
went to Israel on a semester

661
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,900
abroad.
And unfortunately, his their

662
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:32,500
stay was cut short, because they
were in Israel in Jerusalem.

663
00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:36,500
When the Yom Kippur War broke
out, the seven-day more or 16

664
00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:38,700
work.
No, the, the Six-Day War in the

665
00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:41,400
Yom Kippur War were different
and I don't remember the timing,

666
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,000
okay?
But anyway, they were they were

667
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,400
there and they had to like they
got the last flight out, you

668
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:47,600
know.
No France or whatever.

669
00:42:49,100 --> 00:42:55,900
But my aunt she reports that
when my dad came back from that,

670
00:42:55,900 --> 00:42:58,300
but they were there for a few
weeks or something.

671
00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:03,700
At least, she says, when he came
back, that he was the most

672
00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:08,400
Jewish, Mormon, she'd ever met?
I didn't even know that was a

673
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:16,500
thing and he was just like, on
fire with you with a love of the

674
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,500
Testament, and of Israel, and
all the symbolism and stuff

675
00:43:20,500 --> 00:43:21,200
there.
And so.

676
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,500
So, he at some point, like, I
don't know when this started but

677
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,200
in my childhood memory, growing
up like we would, we would

678
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,600
celebrate Passover every year.
Okay?

679
00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:43,000
And now I, and I've continued
that since since So my dad, like

680
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,900
lay this foundation, and I feel
like I've built upon it.

681
00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:51,300
And one of the things that that
I built upon it is that we just

682
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:53,600
have wine instead of grape
juice, right?

683
00:43:53,700 --> 00:43:57,800
So, for my growing up all the
time, like we would have, we

684
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,000
have grape juice for the
Passover.

685
00:44:00,100 --> 00:44:02,000
You're supposed to have the four
cups, right?

686
00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:04,400
Right.
And this is there's a lot of

687
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,800
connections to the Last Supper,
of course, right with Passover

688
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:15,400
and the Seder, actually,
interesting that The account in

689
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:21,700
the New Testament of the Last
Supper has many elements of the

690
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:26,200
modern Jewish Seder.
But the New Testament is the

691
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:35,900
oldest record of this ordered
meal connected to pass over like

692
00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:37,400
the oldest sources of the
Jewish.

693
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,700
Seder are Christian done
documents.

694
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:42,500
Wow.
So so there's some beat

695
00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:48,100
connections there and and there
are some Scholars who like it

696
00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:51,800
was thought for a long time and
it still is thought by some

697
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,500
people that like kind of
Christians took this Jewish

698
00:44:55,500 --> 00:44:59,900
thing and kind of like
appropriated it to you know, to

699
00:44:59,900 --> 00:45:05,200
put Messianic symbolism into it
but historically, it may

700
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,000
actually be the reverse.
It may be that the Jews actually

701
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:16,600
borrowed from the Christians and
And kind of scrub some of the

702
00:45:17,100 --> 00:45:19,100
Messianic elements out of it,
right?

703
00:45:19,500 --> 00:45:23,600
Anyway, regardless, sweet, we
had my dad would kind of call

704
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,100
this grape juice of wine, you
know, with a wink and and but at

705
00:45:28,100 --> 00:45:30,500
some point, you know, I'm
reading the scriptures as I'm

706
00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:36,200
older and then my dad dies and
I'm reading the scriptures in

707
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,100
the Doctrine and Covenants
section 89 and section 27 and

708
00:45:40,100 --> 00:45:45,000
all through the Old Testament to
like it talks like I just like,

709
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,500
it says wine of your own make,
right?

710
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,900
And and I know that there are
people who will say you know

711
00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:57,700
well that wine was actually
grape juice but it's like well

712
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:04,100
do you know when grapes are ripe
like October Right, September,

713
00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:08,200
maybe and do you know when the
Passover was like, that's in

714
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,500
April, and there's no
pasteurization and no

715
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:16,400
Refrigeration in Jesus day.
So that ain't grape juice, you

716
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,500
know, six months later, that
they're right there that they've

717
00:46:19,500 --> 00:46:22,300
preserved as grape juice.
Like, they preserve it by

718
00:46:22,300 --> 00:46:23,600
fermenting it?
Yep.

719
00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:31,600
So anyway, so I so I, when my
dad dies, And my siblings are

720
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,300
like are we going?
They're asking me now because

721
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:36,100
I'm the oldest.
Are we going to have pass over

722
00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:39,800
again this year?
And I said, yeah I guess we are

723
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:44,400
I guess I'm in charge and so but
I want to I want to do what the

724
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,400
scriptures say and make wine.
And I've never done this before

725
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,000
and so.
Anyway but we start because of

726
00:46:51,008 --> 00:47:00,000
Passover start making our own
line. so, Look at how to read

727
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:01,100
every one thing.
Yep.

728
00:47:01,100 --> 00:47:02,500
That's why they're there at
scriptures here.

729
00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:14,600
So section 89.
Look at this again, marks all

730
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,700
over the place.
Yeah, sorry I marked my

731
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:19,300
scriptures.
Probably look like coloring

732
00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:22,700
book.
No, this is a section, 89 verse

733
00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:25,700
5.
It's talking about wine and it

734
00:47:25,700 --> 00:47:30,800
says, you know, it says it's not
good to just imbibe for

735
00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:34,400
recreation or whatever
supposedly but it's when you

736
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:38,000
assemble your All together to
offer up your sacraments and is

737
00:47:38,100 --> 00:47:44,700
sacraments is plural.
Yeah, so The meaning of the word

738
00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:47,600
Sacrament, it'll give you look
it up in the dictionary, is

739
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:52,100
actually closer to what the LDS
term for ordinances would be a

740
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:55,600
Sacrament is are these
ceremonies?

741
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,000
I think we're dry, sacred Rite
or ceremony.

742
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,000
That's right.
So so I noticed that I'm like,

743
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:05,600
well, I mean, that makes sense,
because Jesus first miracle is

744
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:11,200
turning water into wine at a
wedding, which is a Sacrament.

745
00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:15,100
And, you know, we Passover is a
Sacrament and we have the

746
00:48:15,100 --> 00:48:17,200
Lord's.
We know what we call.

747
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,800
The sacrament is actually the
sacrament of the Lord's Supper.

748
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,400
Yep, that's the more full name.
We just kind of abbreviate it to

749
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:24,800
Sacramento.
We call the other things

750
00:48:25,300 --> 00:48:27,600
ordinances.
But other Christians would call

751
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:32,600
those baptism and ordination and
baby blessings or christenings

752
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,300
like we would they would call
all those things sacraments.

753
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,500
So I'm like, so this is so, so
the Passover is a perfectly, the

754
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:43,800
Lord's Supper is one the
Passover Over in my mind would

755
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,900
be another appropriate time to
have wine of your own make

756
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,100
anyway.
So we started that and then when

757
00:48:51,300 --> 00:48:54,200
we're excommunicated, and like,
said we're bringing our own,

758
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,500
this is all to tell this funny
story.

759
00:48:56,500 --> 00:48:58,500
It was quite a, quite a, no,
this is good.

760
00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:02,000
It's like a wind up here, but so
we've been having our own

761
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,800
Sacrament once once, once we
were denied the LDS segment,

762
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:10,000
then we just have our own at
home or in sacrum eating, you

763
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,500
know, we just would bring a
water bottle.

764
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:16,500
Actually, this is another kind
of funny story to I guess, is we

765
00:49:16,500 --> 00:49:18,600
actually include it.
We don't want to be breaking any

766
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,900
of their rules, right?
You want to be respectful?

767
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,000
Absolutely.
So, you know the church handbook

768
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,100
of instructions has been leaked
more than one, so we scoured

769
00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:32,600
through that and there's
actually at least at the time,

770
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:40,300
there is no prohibition, on
alcoholic beverages in LDS

771
00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:44,100
buildings.
So like Okay, so, What there is

772
00:49:44,100 --> 00:49:48,600
a Prohibition against is red or
staining liquids because they're

773
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,500
worried about the carpet, right?
Yeah.

774
00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:55,300
So so we made white wine, okay?
So that we wouldn't be you know

775
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:59,100
running up against that issue
and so we had white wine, you

776
00:49:59,100 --> 00:50:01,400
know in a water bottle and we
would all just take sips of it

777
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,500
or whatever.
And but anyway, so one time

778
00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:10,600
though the my near the deacons
bring, the tray of water to us

779
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,400
and we just always refused, you
know?

780
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:18,300
But my, my youngest daughter at
the time she like, says, in a

781
00:50:18,500 --> 00:50:22,300
louder voice than I would like
would have liked her to use.

782
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,100
I don't want water.
I want wine.

783
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,900
Ha ha ha.
Hey, we got a look around at

784
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,600
that, I don't know.
I don't know who heard that, but

785
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:39,100
I don't know how they couldn't
have heard it immediately.

786
00:50:39,100 --> 00:50:41,700
You see the Bishops eyebrows
raised a little bit and we're

787
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:43,600
kind of towards the back.
You and?

788
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:49,100
But anyway, at some point at
some point, but they they didn't

789
00:50:49,100 --> 00:50:51,400
know any, so they didn't know
anything about the wine.

790
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:54,900
Right?
Although we did have it, but at

791
00:50:54,900 --> 00:51:00,700
some point we're gets to, I
don't know who, but I get a call

792
00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:05,200
from the stake President says he
wants me to come to his office.

793
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:11,800
And I'm a little bit annoyed at
that because I'm not a member of

794
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:14,500
his church anymore.
So, he can't really doesn't add

795
00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:17,800
any authority over me anymore.
At this point.

796
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,900
You think anything would come
down from the bishop, right?

797
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:22,300
Because that's where you're at.
So, to speak.

798
00:51:22,300 --> 00:51:27,300
Exactly.
So he calls and I say, Okay,

799
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:33,000
okay, so I come and he, he
basically asked me if we are

800
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:39,600
having Sacrament in their
Chapel, you know, like and it's,

801
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,700
it's almost.
So, it's so ridiculous.

802
00:51:41,700 --> 00:51:44,200
It's like, are you eating Are
you eating bread like while

803
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,700
we're eating bread, right?
We don't approve.

804
00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:53,000
You eating bread while we're
eating bread and I'm like Yeah,

805
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:54,600
yeah.
We're that's we're doing that

806
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,000
either you having he.
I think he asked her for having

807
00:51:57,100 --> 00:51:58,200
no.
This is what he asked.

808
00:51:58,300 --> 00:52:02,200
He said, are you having your own
bread and water during the

809
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,800
sacrament?
And I said no, we're having

810
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:12,300
Bread and Wine but ha ha.
And anyway so we got we got

811
00:52:13,300 --> 00:52:19,100
shortly after that and then we
had some words and and I said if

812
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:22,900
you want to talk to me again,
you can To my house.

813
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:27,500
Like a normal person, not right
man that I come into your

814
00:52:27,500 --> 00:52:30,600
office.
So shortly after that we got

815
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:35,600
letters from kirton mcconkie,
you know, who her real power

816
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:38,200
behind the LDS church.
Yeah, they're they're lawyers.

817
00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:39,700
Yeah, that's right.
That's the church's Law.

818
00:52:39,700 --> 00:52:45,600
Firm telling the three of us
adults adults that we're not

819
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:50,700
allowed on Church property on
any any property owned or

820
00:52:50,700 --> 00:53:00,200
controlled by the church.
anywhere in the world and My

821
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,500
wife Charlotte actually wrote a
letter back to them and said

822
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,600
well tell us give us a list of
all the properties that you own

823
00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:13,000
so that we can avoid them.
Did they furnish it?

824
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,900
No, she said otherwise
otherwise, we will disregard

825
00:53:17,900 --> 00:53:24,100
this and consider and consider
that you intended for us only to

826
00:53:24,100 --> 00:53:28,400
stop attending our Ward, right?
Because you can't even know LDS

827
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:32,500
church property you know when
you Tha in Utah that it's as a

828
00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:36,600
land surveyor, who does records
research, it's all over right?

829
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,200
And then everything yeah or
parts of everything.

830
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:40,200
I don't know.
Yeah.

831
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,400
So basically we I mean we just
they said yeah and there's other

832
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,800
kind of mean things like you're
welcome to send your children

833
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,500
without you, it's like yeah.
Like that's going to happen, you

834
00:53:52,500 --> 00:53:54,200
know?
And you're like you can start

835
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:57,700
coming back.
Once you have like a Psychiatric

836
00:53:57,700 --> 00:53:59,200
evaluation and take your
medication.

837
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,600
Like that's basically what the
letter said.

838
00:54:03,100 --> 00:54:09,600
So it was kind of nasty you know
when when I left the LDS church

839
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:18,500
in 2019 because after after my
my plural marriage broke up and

840
00:54:18,500 --> 00:54:21,700
dissolve, I just thought I'll
just go back to the LDS church.

841
00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:24,600
I'll kind of compartmentalize
all this and yeah, won't creeped

842
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:29,700
out anymore and I'll be fine.
Which it doesn't do.

843
00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:33,300
I mean you can try maybe some
people are successful at it, but

844
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:38,000
once I knew I knew I knew I had
tasted of that fruit.

845
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,900
So does he?
And anyway, so I thought, well,

846
00:54:40,900 --> 00:54:44,300
I'll just go back and and, and,
you know, shut up and stay in

847
00:54:44,300 --> 00:54:47,800
the back and do whatever they
ask me to and it'll all be cool.

848
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:56,300
But when I left in 2019, I
learned really quick that those

849
00:54:56,300 --> 00:55:03,000
who leave for reasons other than
just, I don't believe anymore.

850
00:55:04,500 --> 00:55:08,700
if you believe too much so to
speak, you're the worst kind of

851
00:55:08,700 --> 00:55:16,000
apostate because you bring
forward very valid facts.

852
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:19,200
Yeah.
And you don't, normally those

853
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:24,300
arguments are very well thought
out very well documented, and it

854
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:26,400
creates a massive amount of
problems.

855
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:32,700
And so when you leave for
wanting to practice the fullness

856
00:55:32,700 --> 00:55:35,400
of the Gospel, so to speak and
in whatever way that looks,

857
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:39,700
whether that's plural marriage,
whether that's a full Temple

858
00:55:39,700 --> 00:55:44,000
endowment, whatever it is, You
know, become a bigger problem

859
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,500
than someone who just says.
I'm not sure I believe in God

860
00:55:46,500 --> 00:55:47,600
anymore.
Yeah.

861
00:55:47,900 --> 00:55:52,900
Because with that stance of,
there's more out here, we're not

862
00:55:52,900 --> 00:55:57,800
doing it creates a massive
amount of questioning and

863
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,100
problems that works its way.
All the way up into the upper

864
00:56:02,100 --> 00:56:04,300
building of the Church
Headquarters.

865
00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:05,500
Yeah.
Right.

866
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:08,300
And so it doesn't surprise me.
It went the way it did.

867
00:56:09,500 --> 00:56:13,800
Now when So you did go back to
the LDS church.

868
00:56:14,300 --> 00:56:17,600
Yeah.
So what kind of I mean, was it

869
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:20,900
just this nying in the back of
your mind or was there a know?

870
00:56:21,100 --> 00:56:22,700
What do you like?
Okay, that's enough.

871
00:56:22,700 --> 00:56:26,200
I can't take this anymore.
It was very much a moment but it

872
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:30,400
had been a slow build up.
So let me go back to when

873
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:32,900
everything fell apart.
I've always said plural marriage

874
00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:36,000
brought me the most Exquisite
joy and the most Exquisite pain

875
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:37,100
when it finished.
Yeah.

876
00:56:37,100 --> 00:56:43,900
When it ended I have no doubt
and I had so before I joined the

877
00:56:43,900 --> 00:56:46,100
church there was only a couple
things.

878
00:56:46,100 --> 00:56:48,700
I was really good, at one was
playing football in the other

879
00:56:48,700 --> 00:56:51,700
was drinking.
I mean I was I was super good.

880
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,400
I still think Jack angles, owes
me some some, some props and

881
00:56:56,408 --> 00:56:59,300
maybe even a little stock
options because I know I did my

882
00:56:59,300 --> 00:57:01,100
share be sure to spread the good
word.

883
00:57:01,100 --> 00:57:05,100
Yeah, sure gospel exact angles
and I didn't, I didn't drink at

884
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:10,100
all in the whole time.
I was in the LDS church after I

885
00:57:10,100 --> 00:57:14,300
converted and All the way up
through practicing plural,

886
00:57:14,300 --> 00:57:20,100
marriage until it fell apart and
then the knife got week, right?

887
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:24,000
Yeah.
And I never want to, I never

888
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,900
wanted to mourn the loss of my
second wife.

889
00:57:28,900 --> 00:57:31,300
When she left too much in front
of Amber.

890
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,500
My yeah, my first wife because I
never wanted her to think she

891
00:57:34,500 --> 00:57:39,400
wasn't enough, right?
And she knew I was hurting, but

892
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,600
I was trying to put on a table
it On it being, right?

893
00:57:42,900 --> 00:57:47,200
And I'm on this acreage out
where we were living, where all

894
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:50,000
this had taken place and it was
just painful memory.

895
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:51,600
After paying I, there was
nothing.

896
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,700
I could look at that.
Had not seemed to have been

897
00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:57,400
touched by this experience,
right?

898
00:57:57,700 --> 00:58:01,000
And so forget, solid couple
months.

899
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:03,000
I was like, I've got to kill
this pain.

900
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:04,700
There's really no one to talk to
you.

901
00:58:04,700 --> 00:58:09,000
I was on my own, I didn't, you
know, so I just kind of crawled

902
00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:11,900
back into a bottle and I
remember one night Amber Came

903
00:58:11,900 --> 00:58:15,800
out.
And she, she saw me piss and

904
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:22,200
moan and basically a little too
much booze and I'm like, this is

905
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:26,000
the solutions to yo, man.
I was like, truth serum and

906
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,400
look, what be honest, I'm
probably God's most petulant

907
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:33,100
child to begin with, right?
And so she came out, she's like,

908
00:58:33,100 --> 00:58:34,400
yeah.
Okay, I'm like I'm never doing

909
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:35,900
this again.
This is stupid.

910
00:58:35,900 --> 00:58:38,300
Why would I do this?
This is as painful as hit myself

911
00:58:38,300 --> 00:58:39,700
in the crotch with a hammer
here.

912
00:58:39,700 --> 00:58:41,800
I had right doing this ever ever
again.

913
00:58:42,100 --> 00:58:44,800
And I'm just going on.
And she's just patiently,

914
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,300
listening.
And she's like, are you

915
00:58:48,300 --> 00:58:50,100
finished?
And I'm like, I think so.

916
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:54,400
She's like good if we get this
opportunity again, we're going

917
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:59,200
to do it know that now.
And then that was it amazing.

918
00:58:59,500 --> 00:59:03,000
But I had it in my mind, I'm
forgetting all about this,

919
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:04,700
right?
I'm going to compartmentalize it

920
00:59:05,100 --> 00:59:07,700
and I'm going to go back to the
LDS church, and we're just going

921
00:59:07,700 --> 00:59:10,900
to do our thing.
It's better to have some truth

922
00:59:10,900 --> 00:59:14,800
than nothing at all and so
that's what we did.

923
00:59:16,700 --> 00:59:19,500
It was shortly thereafter.
I sold the place.

924
00:59:19,500 --> 00:59:22,300
We were living on moved to North
Dakota.

925
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,800
Did some work out there cuz it
was kind of still really slow as

926
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:30,100
far as work for surveyors and
development.

927
00:59:30,100 --> 00:59:34,000
The pipeline was, you know,
crack-a-lackin' out and we had

928
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,100
Kota yeah with stuff.
So I went out there which was a

929
00:59:37,107 --> 00:59:40,300
healthy move.
It was horrible, but it was

930
00:59:40,300 --> 00:59:42,900
probably healthy from a
spiritual standpoint, right?

931
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:49,000
Okay.
Move to Utah. and, Move into

932
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,600
this place and I get called into
the elders, Quorum presidency

933
00:59:51,600 --> 01:00:00,000
again. and covid kicks in and I
guess it would have been 20 20,

934
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,100
I would have left because that's
when covid really, really hit.

935
01:00:03,100 --> 01:00:04,800
So it's a catalyst for a lot of
people.

936
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,600
It was so all of a sudden, I'm
doing stuff at home.

937
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:09,900
Yeah, there's just great.
And I'm like, now, wait a

938
01:00:09,908 --> 01:00:14,800
second, I don't have to hedge
anymore.

939
01:00:14,900 --> 01:00:19,200
Yeah, right, right.
I've always had old Mormon books

940
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,200
around and so we would
supplement our lessons with

941
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:23,000
that.
Yeah.

942
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:26,500
And I'm like, no, it's because
the whole time we were going to

943
01:00:26,500 --> 01:00:28,400
church, it would great on me,
right?

944
01:00:28,500 --> 01:00:31,600
Yeah, you know, you hear all the
stuff and it was well-meaning.

945
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,000
I'm not saying anyone who was
out to why it's just what they

946
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,600
were taught, right?
But you're like, it's not the

947
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:37,800
way it was think.
That's not the way.

948
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:39,900
It was not the way.
It was death, got more full

949
01:00:39,900 --> 01:00:41,900
sculpture here.
Did you write, you know, just

950
01:00:41,900 --> 01:00:46,500
constantly and so, finally, I
want, um, one morning, I woke up

951
01:00:46,500 --> 01:00:50,500
and I was just like, I'm done.
I'm dying, right?

952
01:00:50,500 --> 01:00:53,200
I just had this real moment and
look at myself in the mirror.

953
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,300
Like, what the hell?
What the hell am I doing here?

954
01:00:56,300 --> 01:00:58,300
We write.
This is so stupid.

955
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:02,600
Yeah, right.
And so I just I talk to Amber

956
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,700
and Amber's like I've been done
for a long time.

957
01:01:04,700 --> 01:01:06,900
She's been waiting for you.
Yeah, she's like we've been

958
01:01:06,900 --> 01:01:10,000
going through the motions and
and what really set me over the

959
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:13,700
edge was the latest Temple
changes, right?

960
01:01:13,700 --> 01:01:17,600
That that really was like this
is a bridge too far.

961
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,200
We're now at the point where I
believe we're starting to mock

962
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:24,300
God a little bit time to pull
the cord.

963
01:01:24,300 --> 01:01:28,400
So yeah, it was, it was a slow
build-up but there was very

964
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:30,800
there was a very moment, clear
moment.

965
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,200
Where I'm just looking in the
mirror and I'm like, if I don't

966
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,100
get damned honest with myself
right now, I'm gonna lose

967
01:01:36,100 --> 01:01:38,300
everything I am.
Yeah, right.

968
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,700
So, did you just your attendance
and stuff?

969
01:01:41,700 --> 01:01:43,600
Didn't kind of fizzle out?
And just know.

970
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,100
I was always her key.
I was in leadership, right?

971
01:01:46,100 --> 01:01:50,900
So I had to go and sit down and
be like, I'm out and they're

972
01:01:50,900 --> 01:01:57,400
like, whoa, why are you out?
And I was like, because the

973
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,600
latest Temple changes are way
too far.

974
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:05,300
Well, way too far and what was
their response?

975
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:10,500
They were like well and I'll
just kind of speak.

976
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,300
I want to be respectful here,
but one of the things, one of

977
01:02:13,308 --> 01:02:20,100
the changes they made recently
was is the one where they change

978
01:02:20,100 --> 01:02:22,700
the, the order of the family?
So to speak, right?

979
01:02:22,700 --> 01:02:24,400
Yes.
If you know what I'm talking

980
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:25,100
about?
Yeah.

981
01:02:25,500 --> 01:02:29,100
And I was like that and I
remember they said, okay.

982
01:02:29,100 --> 01:02:32,200
Well, don't panic, what's let me
go In research and then we'll

983
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:36,000
come back and we'll talk about
this and their response was,

984
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:41,000
well, maybe that Covenant was
getting used in a way that was

985
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:47,200
abusive from husband's towards
wise and I said, yes, but no

986
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:51,300
doubt you wouldn't change the
law of Chastity because because

987
01:02:51,300 --> 01:02:55,900
certain guys can't control their
urges, and that blew them out of

988
01:02:55,900 --> 01:02:58,100
the water.
They're like, I got nothing

989
01:02:58,500 --> 01:03:02,000
where I got nothing and I'm
like, I'm done and they're like,

990
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:04,400
well do you still, you know,
have a testimony of the Savior

991
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:06,200
I'm like, absolutely.
Yeah.

992
01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:09,200
You do you still think that
rustling Nelson's a prophet of

993
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:11,600
God?
And I'm like, I have nothing

994
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:15,400
that really tells me that he is
and that was the straw that

995
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,400
broke the camel's back, right?
Yeah, that's the unforgivable.

996
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,600
That's the unpardonable
pardonable, right?

997
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:22,800
That's the one where they're
like, who you're questioning the

998
01:03:22,808 --> 01:03:28,500
guys up top.
And so I just left and And I had

999
01:03:28,500 --> 01:03:31,700
a couple guys come over and try
to you know talk me out of it,

1000
01:03:31,700 --> 01:03:33,200
right?
Like our you know what you're

1001
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:37,300
doing and basically I was like
you don't have to argue with me.

1002
01:03:37,500 --> 01:03:39,300
I'm going to show you some
literature.

1003
01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:44,300
You have to dissuade me that,
that that's wrong.

1004
01:03:44,300 --> 01:03:49,200
You, you look at that and then
give me your rebuttal.

1005
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:50,700
Yeah.
You look at the same things.

1006
01:03:50,700 --> 01:03:54,700
I've looked at, and when I gave
that to him, I never heard from

1007
01:03:54,700 --> 01:03:57,400
him again.
And what has happened here is

1008
01:03:57,400 --> 01:03:59,900
that I within the neighborhood,
right?

1009
01:03:59,900 --> 01:04:01,500
Is it, that was this this
neighborhood?

1010
01:04:01,500 --> 01:04:06,300
Yeah, right here, Vic, I'd
become persona non grata, right?

1011
01:04:06,300 --> 01:04:09,700
And I imagine that this podcast
also had a major influence on it

1012
01:04:09,700 --> 01:04:10,700
because let's face it.
Right?

1013
01:04:10,700 --> 01:04:13,600
The church has in strengthening
church members committee,

1014
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:14,800
correct?
Right.

1015
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:16,900
I've been has better eyes and
ears everywhere.

1016
01:04:16,900 --> 01:04:21,100
I've been as vocal as you can be
and so I'm sure that right, you

1017
01:04:21,100 --> 01:04:23,900
know, they're like I'm sure
they're trying to figure out

1018
01:04:23,900 --> 01:04:28,100
what to do, right?
I mean one is that if they if

1019
01:04:28,100 --> 01:04:32,400
they decide they want to drag me
up and X me because you are

1020
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,900
still formerly a member
formerly.

1021
01:04:34,900 --> 01:04:37,000
Yeah actually if they want to do
that.

1022
01:04:37,900 --> 01:04:39,800
I'm down with that.
I mean, we can definitely do

1023
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,900
that but it draws more
attention.

1024
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,400
Yeah.
Then if you just leave me alone,

1025
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:48,900
so I'm sure that I'm sure
there's a part where not

1026
01:04:48,900 --> 01:04:51,100
attending their meetings and no,
I'm not attending their

1027
01:04:51,100 --> 01:04:55,000
meetings, I'm not attending
their temples or anything like

1028
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:56,900
that.
So, yeah.

1029
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,100
That's that's that's where we
got both in sheep's clothing.

1030
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,000
They're, they're spooked.
I mean, in, sometimes it's

1031
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:05,700
funny, right?
I mean, sometimes, I probably

1032
01:05:05,700 --> 01:05:07,500
play with it a little more than
what I should just.

1033
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:12,800
For my own personal enjoyment,
the huh, you know, my my

1034
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:17,200
father-in-law I think he used to
think I was a wolf in sheep's

1035
01:05:17,200 --> 01:05:23,600
clothing but just recently I had
baptized my younger daughter and

1036
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:28,100
we invited them.
They were anxious to come see

1037
01:05:28,100 --> 01:05:32,500
it, they weren't anxious to like
be A part of our religious life

1038
01:05:32,500 --> 01:05:34,400
at all.
But now, they are hungry for it

1039
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:42,600
anyway, but afterwards, he said
something like, you know, people

1040
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:45,500
might think that speaking of me
sick, people might think that

1041
01:05:45,500 --> 01:05:47,000
Josh was, like, a wolf in
sheep's clothing.

1042
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:52,000
The he's like, he's like a, he's
like a goat in sheep's clothing,

1043
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:55,000
right?
Yeah, it's no problem.

1044
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:56,800
I Mena.
Yeah, take it, where you can get

1045
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,200
it.
So you so that was an

1046
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:02,700
improvement.
So, One of the other reasons,

1047
01:06:02,700 --> 01:06:05,100
not only do I just like you a
lot, but one of the other

1048
01:06:05,100 --> 01:06:09,100
reasons of is, I've always found
your take on Mormonism.

1049
01:06:09,700 --> 01:06:13,800
Just awesome.
I told you before about, you

1050
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,600
know, when I worked back east
and yeah, and, you know, I get

1051
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,400
with Joel and his dad who was a
rabbi.

1052
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:26,600
And so I've always felt a strong
Affinity towards towards, not

1053
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:32,100
just the Old Testament, but but
the Jewish feast days As the,

1054
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:35,400
the, the tradition, it's within
Judaism.

1055
01:06:35,700 --> 01:06:39,500
And so when I see when I see
what you've done, which is

1056
01:06:39,500 --> 01:06:44,300
really incorporate that into a
lot of what you do from from

1057
01:06:44,300 --> 01:06:52,500
keeping those feast days to, to
even blowing the shofar, which

1058
01:06:52,500 --> 01:06:54,900
was should have brought it
started this whole?

1059
01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:59,000
Yeah would have been cool I
really dig it, right?

1060
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:05,100
Because again I don't think We
can get a full painted picture

1061
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:09,200
of Jesus without first
understanding, where Jesus

1062
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:10,500
comes.
So, absolutely not.

1063
01:07:10,900 --> 01:07:16,800
And so that's why I totally
totally love what it is.

1064
01:07:16,800 --> 01:07:21,100
You do within your family and
with the zarahemla foundation,

1065
01:07:21,700 --> 01:07:24,600
where did you at?
What point?

1066
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,300
Did you start to feel yourself?
Pulled that direction?

1067
01:07:27,300 --> 01:07:29,600
Yeah, right to start keeping
those holidays again.

1068
01:07:29,700 --> 01:07:33,300
Yeah, this is This goes right
along with with my story,

1069
01:07:34,300 --> 01:07:36,500
time-wise.
So haven't I don't have to

1070
01:07:36,500 --> 01:07:40,800
backtrack it all that when we
left you, when the church

1071
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,800
finally kicked us out
excommunicated us.

1072
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:45,700
And we had that we actually had
twice.

1073
01:07:46,100 --> 01:07:48,500
So after the second
excommunication then we're kind

1074
01:07:48,500 --> 01:07:50,100
of like well you know now what
do we do?

1075
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:55,800
Mmm, we can have home church and
we do have home church but I

1076
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:00,300
want a community.
For the sake of my children,

1077
01:08:00,300 --> 01:08:04,500
more than anything.
So we looked around.

1078
01:08:04,500 --> 01:08:07,100
And like I said, we were
involved in some of the Denver

1079
01:08:07,100 --> 01:08:10,300
Snuffer, fellowships until that
became quite hostile.

1080
01:08:12,300 --> 01:08:18,399
And while we were looking, we
also, we attended all kinds of

1081
01:08:18,899 --> 01:08:22,300
albeit of Mormon, branches,
right?

1082
01:08:22,300 --> 01:08:25,800
Of course, we're all lbs.
We went to our LDS church.

1083
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:28,899
We checked out the House of
Aaron.

1084
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:34,700
We went out to the Rock, we went
to the AUB.

1085
01:08:34,899 --> 01:08:39,399
We attended the brain
Christchurch Branch meetings,

1086
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:45,700
Nelson Naylor, you know Third
Ward meetings and went to

1087
01:08:45,700 --> 01:08:52,100
Independent fundamentalist you
the krauts meetings and and

1088
01:08:52,100 --> 01:08:57,399
basically I I wasn't really
felt.

1089
01:08:57,500 --> 01:09:01,100
I didn't really feel drawn to
join any of them, but I wanted

1090
01:09:01,100 --> 01:09:05,100
to be friends with everyone and
that's kind of where I'm at

1091
01:09:05,100 --> 01:09:08,899
right now, anyways, like I don't
subscribe to any particular

1092
01:09:08,899 --> 01:09:13,500
group, but I'm friends friendly
with everyone and I think that's

1093
01:09:13,500 --> 01:09:19,899
a good place to be so anyway,
but but, but the zarahemla

1094
01:09:19,899 --> 01:09:25,800
foundation was started up around
This time I can remember Snuffer

1095
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:30,800
was kind of his teachings, were
kind of evolving and becoming

1096
01:09:31,399 --> 01:09:35,700
less friendly towards polygamy
and polygamists.

1097
01:09:37,399 --> 01:09:40,700
These are Hamlet Foundation
started by basically some folks

1098
01:09:40,700 --> 01:09:45,800
who were in The AUB who had kind
of become disenfranchised there

1099
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:52,000
and the care of the founding
members were Robert K.

1100
01:09:52,399 --> 01:09:57,100
Rob k.
Nathan dilts, Dennis Thompson,

1101
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:00,400
Richard Jepsen.
There's a kind of the founding

1102
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:04,700
members.
And so they had posted a thing

1103
01:10:04,700 --> 01:10:09,400
on Facebook that Melissa found
that said, everyone's welcome

1104
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:11,800
like in it, like even said,
like, polygamists are welcome.

1105
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:17,800
We're like, oh somewhere, it was
in Lehigh and they were meeting

1106
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:24,300
in Cody Browns, old house there
in Lehi, Which they abandoned

1107
01:10:24,300 --> 01:10:27,000
right after the sure, first
season of Sister Wives, right

1108
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:28,800
when they became went under
investigation.

1109
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:37,000
So we were meeting there and we
loved it and felt right at home,

1110
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:39,000
you know?
So to speak and like we met

1111
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,600
these other polygamist families
that we had didn't really know

1112
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,000
that they existed.
You know, we you the crowds, I

1113
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:50,900
guess, but it was really cool,
and really good group of people.

1114
01:10:51,700 --> 01:10:57,100
And these people also loved the
feasts to a lot of them were

1115
01:10:57,900 --> 01:11:02,100
into Old Testament stuff and I
was like wow this is really

1116
01:11:02,100 --> 01:11:08,800
amazing.
And so we attended there for

1117
01:11:09,100 --> 01:11:12,900
quite a while at the same time I
was kind of getting more into

1118
01:11:12,900 --> 01:11:14,800
the feast.
Like it mentioned, we had been

1119
01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:17,900
raised keeping the Passover but
that's really the only thing we

1120
01:11:17,900 --> 01:11:20,800
did my dad loved the Passover.
That was kind of his favorite.

1121
01:11:21,900 --> 01:11:26,000
And really in ancient times to,
that's kind of the Passover is

1122
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:30,700
the kind of the crowning Feast
right here.

1123
01:11:30,700 --> 01:11:35,700
Suppose the other ones are
important too, but we started

1124
01:11:35,700 --> 01:11:38,900
looking at some of the other
feasts as well, right?

1125
01:11:39,300 --> 01:11:43,500
And we, and we started with, we
started with, when we started

1126
01:11:43,500 --> 01:11:47,600
adding things, we started with
Perrine, which is in the Book of

1127
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:52,400
Esther, right?
And that's the you know, the You

1128
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:55,800
kind of recount, the story of
Israel's Deliverance no through

1129
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,100
Queen Esther while they're in
Babylon and Persia.

1130
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,500
And one of the things that you
do to celebrate part of the

1131
01:12:02,500 --> 01:12:06,200
reason we did this is because
we're kind of looking at our

1132
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:10,900
once you once you kind of leave
the church, then you kind of

1133
01:12:10,907 --> 01:12:14,000
have to reinvent everything
because the church just has this

1134
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:17,600
whole structure for you and you
just ride along with whatever

1135
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:19,800
they're doing.
But then when you're on your

1136
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:23,900
own, then you have to look
Everything again and decide.

1137
01:12:23,900 --> 01:12:28,300
Is this what I want to keep do I
want to do?

1138
01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:32,400
What can I do?
Better, what do I want to do

1139
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:35,900
away with?
And you know, we looked at the

1140
01:12:35,900 --> 01:12:41,300
holidays that we were keeping
and I all I haven't really felt

1141
01:12:41,300 --> 01:12:43,600
good about Halloween for a long
time.

1142
01:12:43,600 --> 01:12:45,300
I know.
Halloween's fun but there's

1143
01:12:45,300 --> 01:12:46,800
nothing really redeeming about
it.

1144
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:51,500
Like it's like, right Gore and
right satanic stuff.

1145
01:12:51,600 --> 01:12:57,800
Tough or like sexy promiscuous
stuff, and going door to door

1146
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,200
asking for candy, like or else
we're going to vandalize.

1147
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:03,800
You see ya?
Let's good about that.

1148
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,600
So but I'm not mistaken.
I believe that's the new

1149
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:10,400
administration's policy has
basically.

1150
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:13,900
Yeah.
Sorry, no.

1151
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:18,200
Totally derailed, sorry.
I appreciate those interjections

1152
01:13:18,200 --> 01:13:23,000
are so, but one of the things
that Done to celebrate Purim is

1153
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:26,400
people dress in costumes and
there's a bunch of reasons for

1154
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:29,200
that.
You know that one Esther was her

1155
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:34,700
identity was hidden right, okay.
And also, you might be surprised

1156
01:13:34,700 --> 01:13:38,900
to know that in all the books of
scripture that we have,

1157
01:13:39,700 --> 01:13:45,000
including the Song of Solomon,
they all mention God except for

1158
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:49,700
one, which is Book of Esther is
the only book that has it.

1159
01:13:49,700 --> 01:13:52,900
No mention of God, there's not
even His no profits, There's No

1160
01:13:52,900 --> 01:13:56,000
Visions, no Revelations, no one
even says a prayer.

1161
01:13:56,900 --> 01:14:01,800
Hmm and so and so God is also
hidden you know in the Book of

1162
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:07,200
Esther and homens plans are
hidden and and there's all these

1163
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:10,200
all these kind of hidden things
that eventually kind of come to

1164
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:12,500
light.
But so wearing disguises us.

1165
01:14:12,500 --> 01:14:15,500
Our costumes is a part of the
celebrations.

1166
01:14:15,500 --> 01:14:17,900
There's that, well, we'll start
doing premium, and that will

1167
01:14:17,900 --> 01:14:21,400
kind of fill this Niche for our
children, you know, so they can

1168
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:23,700
have Holiday where they dress up
because that's fun.

1169
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:28,000
Yeah anyway.
So and when is that Feast?

1170
01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:33,500
It's like early late winter,
early spring like February, you

1171
01:14:33,500 --> 01:14:36,900
say, okay.
I know that's not technically

1172
01:14:36,900 --> 01:14:39,100
spring but you know like winter
I guess.

1173
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:46,300
Yeah.
So so we started kind of doing

1174
01:14:46,300 --> 01:14:49,100
things bit by bit.
We're like, Let's do let's look

1175
01:14:49,100 --> 01:14:51,600
at Hanukkah and why are we not
doing?

1176
01:14:53,000 --> 01:14:55,900
You know, Shavuot is the day of
Pentecost and and why don't we

1177
01:14:55,900 --> 01:14:59,500
start like going camping like
during the Feast of Tabernacles,

1178
01:14:59,500 --> 01:15:02,100
you know, right?
And and so we start

1179
01:15:02,100 --> 01:15:04,700
incorporating all these things
and the zarahemla foundation is

1180
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:08,000
very supportive and all that
too.

1181
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:12,600
And eventually though, Not long.
After we started attending there

1182
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,500
Cody Browns, like we need to
sell this house.

1183
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:18,600
So you guys are going to have to
find somewhere else to meet.

1184
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:25,100
And but we kind of we looked
around the fellowship kind of

1185
01:15:25,100 --> 01:15:28,800
looked around and and these are
Hamill Foundation by the way.

1186
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:30,100
I'll say a little word about
that.

1187
01:15:31,100 --> 01:15:33,000
Well, let me go back to the
house first, okay?

1188
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:36,400
Eventually we bought the house.
That's long story short, it was

1189
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:39,700
just perfect.
My family was separated or mint

1190
01:15:39,700 --> 01:15:43,700
Willa.
But Melissa's kids were growing

1191
01:15:43,700 --> 01:15:45,100
up.
They had graduating from high

1192
01:15:45,100 --> 01:15:49,800
school and so I we're getting
ready to hear in a year or so

1193
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:52,400
you're too too.
Kind of recombine the family.

1194
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:56,100
So so we need a bigger place and
Cody Brown's house is perfect.

1195
01:15:56,100 --> 01:15:58,200
Plus, we want to have a place
for the fellowship to keep

1196
01:15:58,200 --> 01:16:03,000
meeting the zarahemla foundation
and it's so.

1197
01:16:03,100 --> 01:16:06,500
So we ended up with Kody Brown's
house and so nice, which has

1198
01:16:06,500 --> 01:16:09,000
been a big blessing in a lot of
ways.

1199
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,300
It was, it was perfect.
And it's still close enough to

1200
01:16:12,300 --> 01:16:15,000
dugway which is where I write
it's long.

1201
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:17,800
It's a long commute but it's a
long commute from Tooele as

1202
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:23,900
well.
So anyway, there Hamlet

1203
01:16:23,900 --> 01:16:29,100
foundation will say just a word
about that is basically a

1204
01:16:29,100 --> 01:16:33,400
non-denominational group
nondenominational Mormons.

1205
01:16:34,100 --> 01:16:40,500
And we have had people attend
meetings there and give talks

1206
01:16:40,700 --> 01:16:45,700
and come to our feasts who are
from like every branch that I

1207
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:49,400
named that we've had people from
the house of Aaron and LDS

1208
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:56,800
folks, and AUB, folks and Branch
folks, and independent people,

1209
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:03,100
and people from Church of the
firstborn, you know, Fred

1210
01:17:03,100 --> 01:17:08,000
Colliers group had a number of
people come from there and and

1211
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:11,400
just independent folks to and
it's all it's all good.

1212
01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:18,800
Like the zarahemla foundation
doesn't require really anything

1213
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:23,400
for membership.
Except that like you have a

1214
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:27,200
testimony?
That Jesus is Messiah and you

1215
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:30,500
accept the scriptures as you
know the word of God.

1216
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:36,200
And and then that you're
baptized but not baptized by the

1217
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:38,800
zarahemla foundation.
But you know that, right?

1218
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:43,900
You've received baptism wherever
that may have been and and then

1219
01:17:43,900 --> 01:17:46,400
and then that you just
voluntarily associate.

1220
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,800
You write say I am a member of
the, their home Foundation or

1221
01:17:49,808 --> 01:17:52,100
whatever.
Like there's no is no dues or

1222
01:17:52,100 --> 01:17:57,000
tithing or nice coordinations.
We do have a board of Elders but

1223
01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:58,500
again, there's no like
ordination.

1224
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:03,000
There's just like a vote To make
decisions and stuff.

1225
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:07,200
So so that's been nice.
And that's kind of opened it up

1226
01:18:07,700 --> 01:18:11,800
so that we can without any weird
pressure.

1227
01:18:13,400 --> 01:18:17,300
Have people from all different
backgrounds and Mormonism common

1228
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:20,500
and hopefully like gain an
appreciation.

1229
01:18:20,500 --> 01:18:25,100
I want I want people to
appreciate the feasts and the

1230
01:18:25,100 --> 01:18:29,400
Old Testament stuff more and to
understand that because it adds

1231
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:36,100
in my view so much, Depth and
richness to the gospel and what

1232
01:18:36,100 --> 01:18:38,100
we call the gospel.
Like, I say, I believe that

1233
01:18:38,100 --> 01:18:40,900
stuff is the gospel as well,
right?

1234
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:45,400
A lot of people don't see that
as the gospel, so let me ask you

1235
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:49,700
a question.
You keep all these feast days.

1236
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:54,600
You which again I think is super
cool.

1237
01:18:56,100 --> 01:18:58,700
When someone would ask you the
question or not, maybe I'm the

1238
01:18:58,700 --> 01:19:02,100
only guy that's asked this
question to you, why is it?

1239
01:19:02,100 --> 01:19:06,300
You suppose, these weren't ever
talked about by Joseph Smith or

1240
01:19:06,300 --> 01:19:10,800
Brigham Young or anything like
that because you get the sense

1241
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:16,600
that Joseph on your face.
That Joseph's mission is to

1242
01:19:16,600 --> 01:19:19,400
restore everything, right?
Yeah.

1243
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:24,000
Why weren't these part of that
restoration?

1244
01:19:24,100 --> 01:19:27,400
Yeah, yeah.
That's a That's a big question

1245
01:19:27,900 --> 01:19:33,100
that people have.
And it's my mind goes in a

1246
01:19:33,108 --> 01:19:40,500
couple different directions but
mainly the main reason I would

1247
01:19:40,500 --> 01:19:49,600
say is that the restoration was
not complete there are and I

1248
01:19:49,608 --> 01:19:56,900
think everyone agrees to this in
one sense or another because

1249
01:19:56,900 --> 01:20:00,200
certainly, we don't have the
Zion right?

1250
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:03,800
We don't we have not built.
City New Jerusalem.

1251
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:05,800
Yeah.
Or the Earthly version that's

1252
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:07,200
going to meet with the Heavenly
version.

1253
01:20:09,100 --> 01:20:14,300
The temple is still a temple lot
in Independence.

1254
01:20:15,300 --> 01:20:22,000
And there's all kinds of things
that the scriptures prophesy and

1255
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:25,000
that Joseph also prophesied
would be a part of the

1256
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:28,900
restoration that have not
happened and not only Joseph,

1257
01:20:28,900 --> 01:20:34,800
but Brigham and John Taylor
like, For example, Joseph had

1258
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:37,800
plenty of things to say about
animal sacrifice.

1259
01:20:38,000 --> 01:20:40,000
Mhm.
Where is that?

1260
01:20:40,000 --> 01:20:41,000
Who's doing?
That.

1261
01:20:41,100 --> 01:20:45,100
No one.
In other words, that that piece.

1262
01:20:46,300 --> 01:20:54,300
Wasn't restored yet.
But Joseph and John Taylor fully

1263
01:20:54,300 --> 01:21:01,000
had that in view as as one of
the necessary steps for the

1264
01:21:01,700 --> 01:21:05,500
fullness of all things.
You know, the restoration of all

1265
01:21:05,500 --> 01:21:07,900
things that the prophets have
spoken since the beginning of

1266
01:21:07,900 --> 01:21:16,000
the world, that was necessary.
So, I know some people will kind

1267
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:19,000
of bristle at that because I
know you're Joseph restored

1268
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:22,500
everything including the
kingdom, you know, and rolled it

1269
01:21:22,500 --> 01:21:27,000
off his shoulders, onto the 12
and the Council of 50 in all of

1270
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:28,600
that.
And, you know, I don't discount

1271
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:31,200
any of that at all.
But if you just look at the

1272
01:21:31,200 --> 01:21:36,100
scriptures and compare them, to
what we are doing the

1273
01:21:36,100 --> 01:21:39,700
scriptures, say even after the,
even after the second coming.

1274
01:21:40,800 --> 01:21:44,400
Like all the nations will come
to celebrate the Feast of

1275
01:21:44,407 --> 01:21:48,000
Tabernacles and if you don't
you'll be cursed because after

1276
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:51,500
the second come right?
But we don't do that, we sort of

1277
01:21:51,500 --> 01:21:55,000
do.
Now it's also the other.

1278
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:59,700
The other kind of direction that
my mind goes is that although

1279
01:21:59,700 --> 01:22:07,300
Joseph May not have.
Formally instituted the

1280
01:22:07,300 --> 01:22:13,500
celebration of Passover and
Tabernacles there are certainly

1281
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:17,600
beautiful hints about those
things.

1282
01:22:18,300 --> 01:22:23,100
For example, the the tradition
that we have of having General

1283
01:22:23,100 --> 01:22:26,100
conferences in the beginning of
April and the beginning of

1284
01:22:26,100 --> 01:22:29,700
October like, that doesn't
always line up.

1285
01:22:29,700 --> 01:22:32,400
But that's, that's that's
basically when Passover and

1286
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:37,400
Tabernacles would be and that Is
time when in ancient Israel.

1287
01:22:37,500 --> 01:22:40,600
Everyone was commanded to come
to the Tabernacle, or the

1288
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:45,100
temple, and to receive
instruction and to worship and

1289
01:22:45,100 --> 01:22:46,700
bring their offerings and all
that.

1290
01:22:47,200 --> 01:22:52,000
And have the have the priests,
the priesthood, teach them.

1291
01:22:53,100 --> 01:22:56,400
And we do that, we just don't
call it Passover.

1292
01:22:56,400 --> 01:23:01,000
And Tabernacles, we call it
April Conference in October

1293
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:05,900
conference, you know?
Okay, so there's that there's

1294
01:23:05,900 --> 01:23:10,800
also these like hidden things,
and I'm sure you're probably

1295
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:14,200
aware of some of them.
Like the Book of Mormon coming

1296
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:20,300
forth on the Feast of trumpets
or as a Jews, call it Rosh

1297
01:23:20,300 --> 01:23:24,400
Hashanah or Yom teruah is the
day of shouting, the day of

1298
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:28,700
trumpets or Rosh.
Hashanah is the new year, right?

1299
01:23:28,900 --> 01:23:31,500
Okay.
And this was, this was the

1300
01:23:31,500 --> 01:23:34,800
symbolism connected to the Book
of Mormon is All about new

1301
01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:38,100
things.
There's this new record on this

1302
01:23:38,100 --> 01:23:40,600
new continent and a new
dispensation.

1303
01:23:42,500 --> 01:23:45,800
And there's an angel with a
trumpet, like, we put the put

1304
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:48,200
them on the temples, right?
With a right trumpet in his hand

1305
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:54,400
and this is this is intimately
connected to Rosh Hashanah

1306
01:23:54,400 --> 01:23:56,300
there.
The day of the different pumps.

1307
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:58,400
Yeah.
And it's also the day of

1308
01:23:58,400 --> 01:23:59,800
trumpets.
Also, the symbolism of.

1309
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:06,600
This is the beginning of the The
judgments, the beginning of the

1310
01:24:06,600 --> 01:24:10,100
judgments are like the books,
the books are going to be opened

1311
01:24:10,700 --> 01:24:18,000
until for this short space until
Yom Kippur the day of atonement

1312
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:22,500
when the final judgment takes
place now that, that that final

1313
01:24:22,500 --> 01:24:28,600
judgments going to happen.
Shortly after the second coming.

1314
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:33,200
But also, you know, we believe
as Mormons that, that this is

1315
01:24:33,400 --> 01:24:37,200
the last dispensation and that
the fullness, like, everything

1316
01:24:37,200 --> 01:24:41,100
is going to be wrapped up here
and the judgments are like we're

1317
01:24:41,100 --> 01:24:45,400
preparing for that.
So, so even though Joseph never

1318
01:24:47,500 --> 01:24:53,500
said explicitly, like, connected
The Book of Mormon and also the

1319
01:24:53,500 --> 01:24:57,300
visitations, right?
It's from the angel on specific

1320
01:24:57,300 --> 01:25:01,600
dates to fulfill prophecy which
were also, which were also all

1321
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:04,400
on Rosh Hashanah right every
year.

1322
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:10,700
So he didn't, he didn't
explicitly connect, that which

1323
01:25:10,700 --> 01:25:15,300
is why, which is why I'm saying,
if you don't understand the Old

1324
01:25:15,300 --> 01:25:19,700
Testament, then you will miss a
bunch of Mormonism, right?

1325
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:22,500
Like it doesn't, it doesn't have
to be explicit either.

1326
01:25:22,700 --> 01:25:26,300
Like and even in the, in the
Teachers themselves.

1327
01:25:29,500 --> 01:25:32,100
They're there, they're not
explicit either.

1328
01:25:32,100 --> 01:25:35,500
I'll take will take the Book of
Ruth, for example.

1329
01:25:38,700 --> 01:25:41,900
I don't go over the whole story,
but but part of the story is

1330
01:25:41,900 --> 01:25:45,500
she's gleaning in boaz's fields,
right?

1331
01:25:45,900 --> 01:25:54,700
And, and so, but this, the story
of Ruth is traditionally read

1332
01:25:54,700 --> 01:25:59,100
during the time of Shavuot or
the in Greek, we say Pentecost

1333
01:25:59,100 --> 01:26:03,900
the day of Pentecost because
because that is, when the grain

1334
01:26:03,900 --> 01:26:07,700
is harvested, right?
So So you don't some things

1335
01:26:07,700 --> 01:26:12,300
don't have to be explicit if you
understand what is being talked

1336
01:26:12,300 --> 01:26:14,200
about.
And you know, the same thing

1337
01:26:14,200 --> 01:26:16,900
kind of happens in The Book of
Mormon to one of the things in

1338
01:26:16,907 --> 01:26:19,100
my my dad would he would like to
point out?

1339
01:26:19,100 --> 01:26:23,300
He would say, he say, I'm going
to say, I'm going to say some

1340
01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:28,100
things about holiday, I'm not
going to say what holiday it is

1341
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:31,200
going to see if you can guess
what I'm thinking of, you know,

1342
01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:34,600
and he'll say, you know, colored
eggs and rabbits.

1343
01:26:35,700 --> 01:26:37,100
And what do you think I'm
talking about?

1344
01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:41,000
He's yeah, he's but I never said
Easter but those are like, so,

1345
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:44,900
intimately connected with the
idea of Easter and everything

1346
01:26:44,900 --> 01:26:47,400
that surrounds like I don't even
have to mention the religious

1347
01:26:47,700 --> 01:26:49,700
you know that the resurrection
is stuff like that.

1348
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:56,000
We just know, right?
And if I talk about mistletoe

1349
01:26:56,000 --> 01:27:03,800
and Holly and Christmas.
Yeah like yeah but and the same

1350
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:08,600
thing if I talk about if I talk
about the Commandments and the

1351
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:14,100
trumpet, maybe your mind draws a
blank, but if you're an

1352
01:27:14,100 --> 01:27:19,800
Israelite, then you immediately
think of Shavuot you immediately

1353
01:27:19,800 --> 01:27:25,400
think of Pentecost.
And if I say, you know, a lamb

1354
01:27:25,700 --> 01:27:29,100
and plagues right?
Then you immediately think of

1355
01:27:29,100 --> 01:27:31,500
Passover, right?
And anytime it talks about

1356
01:27:31,500 --> 01:27:34,300
plates like we read in the Book
of Revelation and talks about

1357
01:27:34,300 --> 01:27:39,400
plagues hmm like those just
match - plagues so like

1358
01:27:39,500 --> 01:27:43,900
immediately we know that this is
this is this is drawing on the

1359
01:27:43,900 --> 01:27:47,000
symbolism of the even if even if
the Book of Revelation doesn't

1360
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:52,000
mention Passover, which it
doesn't We had the reader are

1361
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:58,600
supposed to draw on the previous
previously revealed stuff to

1362
01:27:58,900 --> 01:28:01,700
inform us about the symbolism of
what's Happening.

1363
01:28:02,100 --> 01:28:05,700
Sure.
I think you make a good a good

1364
01:28:05,700 --> 01:28:08,800
point there when it comes to the
holidays, right?

1365
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:14,800
I think in the west here and
from are very, Western point of

1366
01:28:14,800 --> 01:28:16,300
view.
We tend to look at holidays a

1367
01:28:16,308 --> 01:28:23,600
little differently than I think.
Judaism did Absolutely, but I do

1368
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:29,100
find it interesting that.
They kind of have a similar

1369
01:28:29,100 --> 01:28:35,300
effect in the way that they help
to make a society cohesive.

1370
01:28:35,300 --> 01:28:36,800
They do.
Right.

1371
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:42,800
And I think that's a big, a big
point that we miss with some of

1372
01:28:42,800 --> 01:28:45,500
these holidays, not just the
religious significance of some

1373
01:28:45,500 --> 01:28:47,300
of them which are vastly
important.

1374
01:28:47,300 --> 01:28:52,700
But these, these societal
holidays were times of national

1375
01:28:52,700 --> 01:28:58,300
remembrance, yes, right?
And and we can't forget At that,

1376
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,100
in the beginning of human
history.

1377
01:29:03,300 --> 01:29:09,900
The god of Israel, the god of
Abraham drawing a blank, the god

1378
01:29:09,900 --> 01:29:14,500
of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was
a national God, right?

1379
01:29:14,500 --> 01:29:16,900
Right.
It was very nationalistic

1380
01:29:16,900 --> 01:29:21,600
because it really only applied
to Israel till that nation of

1381
01:29:21,608 --> 01:29:25,100
people.
Yeah, likewise, I think you can

1382
01:29:25,100 --> 01:29:28,900
draw, you know, some pretty
interesting Ting parallels in

1383
01:29:28,900 --> 01:29:32,500
the sense.
That Christmas does the same

1384
01:29:32,500 --> 01:29:34,300
thing here in a lot of ways,
right?

1385
01:29:34,300 --> 01:29:35,800
Yeah.
For the Fourth of July that we

1386
01:29:35,800 --> 01:29:37,100
just had right?
Yeah.

1387
01:29:37,100 --> 01:29:40,600
Beautiful.
Which was a national remembrance

1388
01:29:41,700 --> 01:29:45,200
of realistically, God's
Deliverance of this people.

1389
01:29:45,300 --> 01:29:46,000
Yeah.
Amen.

1390
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:53,600
And and the Fourth of July
always gets me because There's

1391
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:58,700
no way you can't look at the
American founding and not

1392
01:29:58,800 --> 01:30:02,500
understand, vitally what is
happening, right?

1393
01:30:02,500 --> 01:30:05,900
All the way back.
When John Winthrop has his

1394
01:30:05,900 --> 01:30:09,900
people on the boat and they're
coming over and he wants to put

1395
01:30:09,900 --> 01:30:13,400
these people under Covenant and
does, and he gives a sermon in

1396
01:30:13,400 --> 01:30:20,400
this Covenant that is remarkably
remarkably similar to what Alma

1397
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:23,800
the the Elder says at the
There's a baptism where he says,

1398
01:30:24,000 --> 01:30:27,300
just because Winthrop says, we
must Embrace each other and

1399
01:30:27,300 --> 01:30:30,800
familiar Commerce.
We must make each other's plight

1400
01:30:30,800 --> 01:30:33,500
our own, and we must Delight in
each other.

1401
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:38,500
And then you look at it at that
that scripture mosiah where

1402
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:42,000
where Alma the Elder is setting
forth, the terms of baptism, are

1403
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:44,000
you willing to mourn with those
that mourn?

1404
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:47,100
Are you willing to tear one of
those bird bear one another's

1405
01:30:47,100 --> 01:30:51,100
burdens and then went through up
makes a prophecy.

1406
01:30:51,100 --> 01:30:57,300
He says, if we Do these things.
He said the god of Israel will

1407
01:30:57,300 --> 01:31:04,400
Delight to dwell amongst us and
they'll come a time when 100 of

1408
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:08,000
us will withstand a thousand of
our enemies, and the world will

1409
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:12,400
look and say, if you're going to
make a new Plantation, make it

1410
01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:17,400
like that of New England.
So he sees that that this is a

1411
01:31:17,407 --> 01:31:21,400
continuation of the Israel of
that story of Israelite

1412
01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:22,200
tradition.
Yeah, right.

1413
01:31:22,500 --> 01:31:27,600
And then you go forward a little
more and you start to see that

1414
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:30,800
all throughout the the
revolutionary period especially

1415
01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:32,900
during during our battle for
Independence.

1416
01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:36,800
We need to call upon God, we
need to rely on the protection

1417
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:42,100
of Divine Providence, and
probably the the most that

1418
01:31:42,100 --> 01:31:46,900
Harkens back.
Is an exchange that happens

1419
01:31:46,900 --> 01:31:51,700
between Thomas Jefferson and
John Adams.

1420
01:31:51,700 --> 01:31:54,400
They were really good Buds and
you probably know the story.

1421
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:58,600
They were super good anyway.
They were super good friends and

1422
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:02,000
then they had a parting of ways
and then they came back together

1423
01:32:03,100 --> 01:32:09,700
and Madison, excuse me, Adams
and Jefferson start writing,

1424
01:32:09,700 --> 01:32:13,900
letters back and forth and Adam
says something that is very

1425
01:32:13,900 --> 01:32:16,800
poignant.
He cuz Adams has always been

1426
01:32:16,800 --> 01:32:20,800
kind of how I don't want.
I don't know how to say, it may

1427
01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:24,200
be a little pessimistic at times
but he tells Jefferson we kind

1428
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:26,700
of screwed this up.
We didn't do as much as we

1429
01:32:26,700 --> 01:32:28,500
should have.
We should have put more

1430
01:32:28,500 --> 01:32:33,700
Deuteronomy into the
Constitution and Jefferson.

1431
01:32:33,700 --> 01:32:37,000
Who's in Dismissed.
He's like don't worry they'll be

1432
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:38,500
another generation that comes
along.

1433
01:32:38,500 --> 01:32:41,300
That's saw what we were trying
to do and they'll make the

1434
01:32:41,300 --> 01:32:43,200
corrections where they need to.
Yeah.

1435
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:52,200
And then finally when they both
die you have Jefferson who dies

1436
01:32:52,200 --> 01:32:58,600
just hours before Adams, Adams
on his deathbed says, look

1437
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:03,100
there's Jefferson he lives and
they both died on July 4th I

1438
01:33:03,100 --> 01:33:10,200
major but it's that continual
continuation of That, is that

1439
01:33:10,200 --> 01:33:12,300
Israeli story, right?
Yeah.

1440
01:33:12,300 --> 01:33:16,600
And they understood that right
down to the point that that

1441
01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:20,400
Franklin, the first seal, the
first draft of the seal was

1442
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:23,400
going to be the children of
Israel following the pillar of

1443
01:33:23,400 --> 01:33:24,700
fire.
I've heard that.

1444
01:33:24,800 --> 01:33:26,700
Yeah, that was what it was
supposed to be.

1445
01:33:27,000 --> 01:33:33,000
So, oftentimes, I think in
America because of, I'm just

1446
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:36,600
going to call it.
Like, I see it because of the

1447
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:39,000
progressive influence, it has
And happening for the last

1448
01:33:39,000 --> 01:33:42,300
hundred years, we tend to look
at Rome a lot as where we

1449
01:33:42,300 --> 01:33:44,900
borrowed things that's right, or
Greece.

1450
01:33:45,200 --> 01:33:49,100
But in all actuality, if you
read the founders and you study

1451
01:33:49,100 --> 01:33:53,000
what the founders had to say,
they certainly took some ideas

1452
01:33:53,000 --> 01:33:57,500
from them but even more.
So from ancient Israel and so

1453
01:33:57,500 --> 01:34:02,100
there are times that I think in
ignoring these holidays that you

1454
01:34:02,100 --> 01:34:05,900
practice we aren't doing
Justice.

1455
01:34:05,900 --> 01:34:11,900
Not only to our Our our our
religious lives but we're not

1456
01:34:11,900 --> 01:34:14,900
doing Justice to the country as
a whole.

1457
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:20,500
Because again the idea of
America is a very Israel

1458
01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:24,200
Eccentric kind of idea.
Yeah, yeah.

1459
01:34:24,200 --> 01:34:25,300
Amen.
To that.

1460
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:32,700
It's all that.
I mean it's interesting about

1461
01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:35,900
Deuteronomy and we should have
added more Deuteronomy should

1462
01:34:35,900 --> 01:34:37,800
added you dorami.
And if you look at the book of

1463
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:42,100
Deuteronomy, a large portion of
it is oft you could almost

1464
01:34:42,100 --> 01:34:45,000
consider that the Israeli
Constitution.

1465
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:46,000
Yeah.
Right.

1466
01:34:46,000 --> 01:34:47,500
That's where the laws are set
forth.

1467
01:34:47,500 --> 01:34:50,300
That's where his talks about.
Don't go into dead as a nation.

1468
01:34:50,300 --> 01:34:52,900
Ba, ba ba.
Under don't be a borrower,

1469
01:34:53,000 --> 01:34:56,900
right?
It lays, fourth, how Israel is

1470
01:34:56,900 --> 01:34:59,600
supposed to function?
And there's a lot of Echoes.

1471
01:34:59,800 --> 01:35:04,600
A lot of Echoes of Deuteronomy
still within the United States

1472
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:09,000
Constitution.
I think I think the feasts are

1473
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:15,500
actually have it.
I have a crazy Vision that the

1474
01:35:15,500 --> 01:35:21,000
feasts could be a mechanism of
uniting Mormonism.

1475
01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:23,300
I think you're right.
I don't think that's crazy at

1476
01:35:23,300 --> 01:35:26,700
all.
And, and so, in one sense, I'm,

1477
01:35:27,100 --> 01:35:35,000
I'm glad that Joseph didn't get
around to it because if he did,

1478
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:39,900
then all the branches would be
doing it the right way, you

1479
01:35:39,900 --> 01:35:42,400
know, according to them, they be
doing the right way and the

1480
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:43,700
other guys are doing the wrong
way.

1481
01:35:44,300 --> 01:35:50,400
And so, this is just another
reason to divide. but since no

1482
01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:56,500
one does it then no one knows
what they're doing and then we

1483
01:35:56,500 --> 01:36:01,700
can have people from the branch
and the AUB, and the LDS church

1484
01:36:01,900 --> 01:36:07,200
all come together and celebrate,
Passover and all be edified and

1485
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:14,000
go back home to their separate
Church bodies and not feel any

1486
01:36:14,100 --> 01:36:16,500
not in.
You not feel offended about what

1487
01:36:16,500 --> 01:36:20,100
happened because they have no
idea what they're doing, you

1488
01:36:20,108 --> 01:36:27,100
know, and in, in some respects I
think this is similar to what

1489
01:36:27,100 --> 01:36:30,600
ancient Israel did I do Is
exactly that idea that you said

1490
01:36:30,600 --> 01:36:34,500
about this unifying National
social identity and social

1491
01:36:34,500 --> 01:36:38,600
cohesion, because the Twelve
Tribes like they had their own

1492
01:36:39,100 --> 01:36:41,300
land.
Like they were like different

1493
01:36:41,300 --> 01:36:43,400
nations.
Almost is like, the is like the

1494
01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:47,600
United States.
Yeah, actually, I just read, we

1495
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:51,200
read the Declaration of
Independence for with my family.

1496
01:36:51,200 --> 01:36:53,900
You know, we talked about it and
the Declaration of Independence

1497
01:36:54,900 --> 01:36:59,000
says, says, how many United
States there were Cause normally

1498
01:36:59,000 --> 01:37:02,000
we think of the United States is
one thing, but it says he's,

1499
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:06,200
he's 13 United States and it
talks about the state of Great

1500
01:37:06,200 --> 01:37:10,700
Britain do.
But you know, we have we have

1501
01:37:10,700 --> 01:37:13,900
kind of a skewed idea, really?
The intention was these are like

1502
01:37:14,600 --> 01:37:18,400
essentially independent nations
that have agreed to do a couple

1503
01:37:18,400 --> 01:37:20,500
of things.
You know, we have agreed to have

1504
01:37:20,500 --> 01:37:24,900
a common currency and we have
roads, you know, so we can

1505
01:37:25,500 --> 01:37:28,200
facilitate commerce between the
states.

1506
01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:33,300
But States independently are
able to do all the things that

1507
01:37:33,300 --> 01:37:39,500
governments normally do.
And and if you give people that

1508
01:37:39,500 --> 01:37:43,000
freedom like I think a lot of
the the problems that we have as

1509
01:37:43,000 --> 01:37:46,400
a nation are because there's too
much Federal control.

1510
01:37:46,800 --> 01:37:52,600
Is that federal government says,
everyone needs to be on board

1511
01:37:52,600 --> 01:37:59,700
with whatever it is, this kind
of Taxation, this kind of social

1512
01:37:59,700 --> 01:38:02,500
things.
These welfare thing, this gay

1513
01:38:02,500 --> 01:38:06,700
marriage thing, instead of
saying the states, have all

1514
01:38:06,700 --> 01:38:09,700
these things and you can go live
in a state that suits your

1515
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:13,700
fancy.
Instead, everyone is forced to

1516
01:38:13,700 --> 01:38:18,100
comply with one standard and
then there's just friction over

1517
01:38:18,100 --> 01:38:20,600
that.
But but if they would just back

1518
01:38:20,600 --> 01:38:24,600
off and let the state's be
independent, then we All be

1519
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:29,500
friends and and still have our
own views about things and we

1520
01:38:29,500 --> 01:38:31,200
could all celebrate independence
day.

1521
01:38:31,400 --> 01:38:33,900
Yep, at all celebrate
Thanksgiving, you know, these

1522
01:38:33,900 --> 01:38:37,600
national holidays.
Now, I think you're right in the

1523
01:38:37,600 --> 01:38:39,600
founders definitely bore that
out, right?

1524
01:38:39,600 --> 01:38:42,600
They, they definitely have this
idea that, you know, what, some

1525
01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:44,900
states are going to try some
stuff, and some other states,

1526
01:38:44,900 --> 01:38:47,700
you know, try the exact opposite
and the states to be really

1527
01:38:47,700 --> 01:38:49,300
smart.
Laboratories of Freedom or

1528
01:38:49,300 --> 01:38:51,300
something.
Like, the states that are really

1529
01:38:51,300 --> 01:38:53,300
smart, they're going to be like,
okay, what they did over there

1530
01:38:53,300 --> 01:38:56,000
sucked except for this one
thing, so let's take that.

1531
01:38:56,100 --> 01:38:58,200
Yeah, and let's incorporate
that, right?

1532
01:38:58,200 --> 01:39:02,500
So if Massachusetts or New York
or California want to go full

1533
01:39:02,500 --> 01:39:05,300
commie, they can you that right
to a certain degree.

1534
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:08,700
And then we can Watch the
repercussions Undead, right?

1535
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:11,000
Let's let that happen.
Let's let that happen.

1536
01:39:11,200 --> 01:39:15,700
And then we can pick and choose,
you know, what, what works, but,

1537
01:39:16,100 --> 01:39:20,300
so they can Israel.
They had each tribe have their

1538
01:39:20,300 --> 01:39:26,400
own government, they had Elders,
you know, and of their

1539
01:39:26,400 --> 01:39:29,800
communities, and captains of 50s
and hundreds of thousands, and

1540
01:39:29,800 --> 01:39:33,400
whatever, in their own land.
And, and the tribes.

1541
01:39:33,900 --> 01:39:36,200
You know, they made alliances
with each other and fall towards

1542
01:39:36,300 --> 01:39:39,400
URS with each other, and they
disagreed over lots of things.

1543
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:46,200
But but the law said, when it
comes time for Passover and

1544
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:50,800
Pentecost, and Tabernacles
everyone needs to come to

1545
01:39:50,800 --> 01:39:55,500
Jerusalem to celebrate and bring
your offerings and remember what

1546
01:39:55,500 --> 01:39:59,300
God has done for you.
And then you go back home and

1547
01:39:59,300 --> 01:40:01,400
you can be your own separate
tribes.

1548
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:05,300
And I think that this is like a
model for what?

1549
01:40:05,300 --> 01:40:06,200
Could?
What?

1550
01:40:06,300 --> 01:40:10,400
Could happen with Mormonism is
everyone can have their own,

1551
01:40:11,500 --> 01:40:16,100
their own first presidency and
Council and or whatever and

1552
01:40:16,100 --> 01:40:18,100
their own priesthood and their
own ordinances.

1553
01:40:18,100 --> 01:40:21,600
But we come together because we
are Israelites, like, we claim

1554
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:24,900
to be Israelites, don't we claim
to be Israelites and a lot of

1555
01:40:24,900 --> 01:40:28,500
Hazards were totally ignorant
about is Israelites stuff,

1556
01:40:28,600 --> 01:40:30,500
right?
Because we're just Protestants

1557
01:40:30,500 --> 01:40:34,100
basically, like, right?
So, but we could come together

1558
01:40:34,100 --> 01:40:38,500
and, and B is Israelites and
celebrate these feasts and be

1559
01:40:38,500 --> 01:40:43,400
edified and then everyone goes
back to their own tribes to the

1560
01:40:43,400 --> 01:40:45,700
ALDS and to the branch and to
the Nelson Naylor.

1561
01:40:45,700 --> 01:40:47,900
And let me ask you this.
What do you think it would take

1562
01:40:47,900 --> 01:40:53,500
in order for that to happen.
For some for some folks.

1563
01:40:53,500 --> 01:40:56,700
It's not going to ever happen.
Probably like the LDS church is

1564
01:40:56,700 --> 01:41:00,800
never going to like officially,
no, say yeah, we'll go along

1565
01:41:00,800 --> 01:41:07,100
with that.
But I mean, I think it's going

1566
01:41:07,100 --> 01:41:09,300
to, I mean, that's a good
question.

1567
01:41:12,100 --> 01:41:14,500
It was their animal foundations,
trying, you know them, right?

1568
01:41:14,700 --> 01:41:20,700
Send out invitations to whoever
will come So, I don't know if

1569
01:41:20,700 --> 01:41:22,700
you could, please tell me your
thoughts if you have any.

1570
01:41:23,500 --> 01:41:27,400
I honestly think it's going to
take the Lord moving within all

1571
01:41:27,400 --> 01:41:30,500
these various groups again
tranches of Mormonism, right?

1572
01:41:31,500 --> 01:41:36,300
Because fundamentalists as a
whole, I think they're okay with

1573
01:41:36,300 --> 01:41:41,200
recognizing if they belong to a
group recognizing the the head

1574
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:47,900
of their group, right?
But we tend to be very guarded

1575
01:41:47,900 --> 01:41:53,300
because I think we've seen what
Happens when, when there's too

1576
01:41:53,300 --> 01:41:56,500
much power on top.
Yeah, right.

1577
01:41:56,500 --> 01:42:00,100
And that those abuses happen,
whether it's, you know, certain

1578
01:42:00,100 --> 01:42:03,500
things going away in the LDS
church, which is the most mild

1579
01:42:03,500 --> 01:42:06,700
of the issues you experience, or
you experience something like

1580
01:42:06,700 --> 01:42:10,900
Warren Jeffs, did where it was
utter tyranny of the worst sort.

1581
01:42:11,600 --> 01:42:16,600
There is a health.
There's probably a healthy worry

1582
01:42:16,700 --> 01:42:18,400
about.
Oh, absolutely.

1583
01:42:18,400 --> 01:42:21,600
You know, Who's calling the
shots, right?

1584
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:26,000
And and if there's one thing
that I've noticed from being in

1585
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:29,100
fundamentalism, there's that
question who has the but right,

1586
01:42:29,100 --> 01:42:32,700
who's the man?
I think it's going to take

1587
01:42:33,200 --> 01:42:38,900
pretty much the Lord saying in
somehow, somehow knock it off,

1588
01:42:39,100 --> 01:42:41,600
knock it, knock it off, I got
the button.

1589
01:42:41,700 --> 01:42:46,600
Okay.
Everybody else get in the boat,

1590
01:42:46,800 --> 01:42:48,600
right?
That that sort of thing.

1591
01:42:49,300 --> 01:42:51,400
Yeah.
Is what I'm thinking, but I

1592
01:42:51,400 --> 01:42:53,200
could be wrong.
I'll never pretend to know the

1593
01:42:53,200 --> 01:42:57,800
mind and will of God in such
matters because, you know, I'm a

1594
01:42:57,808 --> 01:43:03,200
clown with microphone.
So I have some have some notes

1595
01:43:03,200 --> 01:43:06,200
that I prepared her.
I'm gonna, if you don't mind,

1596
01:43:06,200 --> 01:43:10,700
not at all.
I'm going to talk about and I

1597
01:43:10,700 --> 01:43:15,800
think this is This ties right
into what you said, the problem

1598
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:18,700
with Mormonism is and this
actually ties in with the

1599
01:43:18,700 --> 01:43:24,100
founding of our country as well,
and and the idea is axioms.

1600
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:29,500
So now you're a surveyor, can
you can you tell, do you know

1601
01:43:29,500 --> 01:43:34,800
what an axiom is like we talked
about mathematical axioms are

1602
01:43:34,900 --> 01:43:41,600
I'll just say, axioms are kind
of these fundamental truths that

1603
01:43:41,600 --> 01:43:47,900
are agreed upon And and which
are basically seen as

1604
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:52,800
self-evident or accepted.
And that are like the simplest

1605
01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:56,400
kind of statements, things that
can't be shown or proven or

1606
01:43:56,400 --> 01:44:01,400
inferred from simpler Parts.
Two plus two equals four, right?

1607
01:44:01,400 --> 01:44:06,100
The V Visa, that's yes, that
right, that, that sort of

1608
01:44:07,500 --> 01:44:10,700
Bedrock foundational.
That's right idea.

1609
01:44:10,700 --> 01:44:12,500
So when I think that's really
important, you know there's a

1610
01:44:12,508 --> 01:44:16,600
famous statement from Joseph
Smith, this in the king Follett

1611
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:20,400
discourse, he said it's if we
start right, it is easy to go

1612
01:44:20,400 --> 01:44:23,200
right all the time, but if we
start wrong it is a hard matter

1613
01:44:23,200 --> 01:44:30,600
to get, right, right.
So actually have the We've

1614
01:44:30,600 --> 01:44:35,100
talked about some of that
already, but when you talk a

1615
01:44:35,108 --> 01:44:37,400
little more about axioms, I'm
going to give some examples to

1616
01:44:37,400 --> 01:44:41,200
of different systems if you
don't mind, indulging, it all.

1617
01:44:41,600 --> 01:44:45,900
So, when we have a set of set of
axioms set of propositions,

1618
01:44:45,900 --> 01:44:51,700
which we're going to build upon,
we want our set of ideas to be

1619
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:55,700
consistent.
That is, we cannot have

1620
01:44:55,800 --> 01:44:59,400
contradictions between our
Mental ideas.

1621
01:45:00,200 --> 01:45:05,600
Okay, there's one thing we want
the set of axioms or fundamental

1622
01:45:05,600 --> 01:45:10,000
ideas to be independent.
That is and this is just for the

1623
01:45:10,000 --> 01:45:14,700
sake of Simplicity, as we don't
want to have axioms that depend

1624
01:45:14,700 --> 01:45:19,200
on other axioms, okay?
And then we want our set of

1625
01:45:19,200 --> 01:45:22,400
axioms to be complete as what we
won't have enough fundamental

1626
01:45:22,400 --> 01:45:30,000
ideas that we can explain or
prove or Or infer any of the

1627
01:45:30,000 --> 01:45:33,200
situations that might arise in
the system that we're talking

1628
01:45:33,200 --> 01:45:36,600
about.
Now, between the between those

1629
01:45:36,600 --> 01:45:40,900
three perhaps, the most
important is the consistency.

1630
01:45:41,400 --> 01:45:48,200
So and give you a little bit of
a mathematical Theory here, it

1631
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:53,800
can be shown that if you have a
set of axioms and there is one

1632
01:45:54,000 --> 01:45:57,900
you might have 12 ideas and if
one of them contradicts another

1633
01:45:57,900 --> 01:46:03,200
idea, then you actually with
that set of ideas, you can prove

1634
01:46:03,200 --> 01:46:07,600
anything you want.
So here's a, here's a simple,

1635
01:46:08,000 --> 01:46:12,900
simple example of how that might
go, let's, let's say that this

1636
01:46:12,900 --> 01:46:16,400
is a fundamental Axiom.
I am a fish.

1637
01:46:17,700 --> 01:46:23,100
Okay, let's say that's true and
we'll also say simultaneously

1638
01:46:23,600 --> 01:46:29,400
that I am a fish is false, okay,
so and we have a bunch of other

1639
01:46:29,400 --> 01:46:33,200
ideas too but but we have as our
building blocks.

1640
01:46:33,200 --> 01:46:36,800
We have this.
This This contradiction, right?

1641
01:46:36,800 --> 01:46:39,900
So now I'm going to use that
contradiction to prove anything

1642
01:46:39,900 --> 01:46:42,400
else I want so.
So I might.

1643
01:46:42,400 --> 01:46:48,400
So I might say, Dave, I'm going
to prove, you know, logically.

1644
01:46:48,600 --> 01:46:53,900
I'm going to logically prove
that you can fly by using these

1645
01:46:53,900 --> 01:46:56,400
two contradicting axioms.
Okay?

1646
01:46:56,400 --> 01:47:01,700
And it go like this, we will
just put these together in an or

1647
01:47:01,700 --> 01:47:04,900
statement, okay?
Say I am a fish.

1648
01:47:05,000 --> 01:47:10,100
Shhhh or you can fly is that
statement true or false?

1649
01:47:10,500 --> 01:47:13,700
Well if it's an or then we don't
actually have to check if you

1650
01:47:13,700 --> 01:47:16,700
can fly right?
Because I said that one of our

1651
01:47:16,700 --> 01:47:19,300
foundational principles.
Is you have a fish.

1652
01:47:19,400 --> 01:47:22,900
So I am a fish or you can fly.
Is that true?

1653
01:47:23,900 --> 01:47:25,700
No.
Well, according to our,

1654
01:47:25,700 --> 01:47:27,600
according to our set of action
could be accent.

1655
01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:29,100
Yes.
Yes, that is true.

1656
01:47:29,400 --> 01:47:31,700
According to the principles that
were laying down here for the

1657
01:47:31,700 --> 01:47:33,800
day.
This exercise, we're doing here,

1658
01:47:34,300 --> 01:47:40,500
but then Look at the other Axiom
and says, I am a fish is false

1659
01:47:41,500 --> 01:47:45,000
there, but we said that this
combined statement, I'm a fish

1660
01:47:45,100 --> 01:47:48,300
or you can fly.
Is we just determined?

1661
01:47:48,300 --> 01:47:52,000
That was true but I am a fish
part is false.

1662
01:47:52,200 --> 01:47:55,300
Therefore you can fly, okay,
okay.

1663
01:47:55,600 --> 01:47:57,500
So of course, that's ridiculous
right?

1664
01:47:57,600 --> 01:48:01,900
But we do that but we can do
that kind of thing in math.

1665
01:48:03,200 --> 01:48:06,100
If you have axioms that
contradict you actually can

1666
01:48:06,100 --> 01:48:12,400
prove anything and that is also
true in other with math, things

1667
01:48:12,400 --> 01:48:16,200
are very rigorous but the idea
of axioms actually applies to

1668
01:48:16,400 --> 01:48:19,600
governments and religion as
well.

1669
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:27,000
So in in Geometry, you know, we
have axioms like for every two

1670
01:48:27,000 --> 01:48:30,400
points there exists, a unique
line that contains them both,

1671
01:48:30,700 --> 01:48:32,400
right?
That is, that is an action.

1672
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:34,500
We can Prove that we just accept
that.

1673
01:48:34,500 --> 01:48:36,000
That is the case, right?
Right.

1674
01:48:36,100 --> 01:48:38,800
And for every three points,
which do not lie on the same

1675
01:48:38,800 --> 01:48:42,400
line, there is a unique plane
that you obtains all three, and

1676
01:48:42,500 --> 01:48:44,700
that's also an axiom of
geometry.

1677
01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:48,600
And then we can list a bunch of
other axioms that talk about

1678
01:48:49,400 --> 01:48:52,600
what it means to be parallel and
about congruence or lines and

1679
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:54,800
angles.
And we take all these together

1680
01:48:54,800 --> 01:48:59,900
and we can describe and derive
all the properties of euclidean

1681
01:49:00,100 --> 01:49:03,200
geometry from this set of oceans
K.

1682
01:49:03,300 --> 01:49:05,500
So that's kind of what people
are familiar with when you talk

1683
01:49:05,500 --> 01:49:08,300
about axioms.
But we can talk about

1684
01:49:08,400 --> 01:49:12,600
governments to, we can say we're
going to say these are axioms.

1685
01:49:13,300 --> 01:49:17,400
God endowed Adam with the right
of dominion over all the Earth

1686
01:49:17,400 --> 01:49:19,700
including his descendants,
right?

1687
01:49:19,700 --> 01:49:23,000
Okay.
And this Divine, Rite has been

1688
01:49:23,000 --> 01:49:26,800
passed by heredity, or
coronation to the current Kings.

1689
01:49:29,500 --> 01:49:31,600
And then the next thing would be
along with this divine.

1690
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:35,200
Right to rule comes a unique
sovereignty when the king owns,

1691
01:49:35,500 --> 01:49:37,400
all the property has two
minions, right?

1692
01:49:37,400 --> 01:49:41,900
And has all the rights.
And since the then number four,

1693
01:49:41,900 --> 01:49:44,600
since this right to rule is
derived from Divine Authority,

1694
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:47,100
then the king is not accountable
to any Earthly Authority.

1695
01:49:47,100 --> 01:49:51,900
But only to God.
So this set of axioms are just

1696
01:49:51,900 --> 01:49:54,200
laid out that like we call that
in right, divine?

1697
01:49:54,200 --> 01:49:55,200
Right of kings.
Rip.

1698
01:49:55,400 --> 01:49:57,500
And if and if those, if that is
your Baseline.

1699
01:49:57,700 --> 01:50:00,000
If those are the axioms that you
choose, then you end up with a

1700
01:50:00,000 --> 01:50:03,600
certain kind of government.
You have a total monarchy.

1701
01:50:04,500 --> 01:50:06,700
Okay.
And so from those actions like

1702
01:50:06,700 --> 01:50:10,200
we can infer things about what
the government ought to look

1703
01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:13,300
like and right.
And it and we would infer that

1704
01:50:14,100 --> 01:50:16,800
the decrees of the king
constitute the laws of his realm

1705
01:50:17,200 --> 01:50:19,700
and that using your controlling
property or exercising rights

1706
01:50:19,700 --> 01:50:22,600
are gifts from the King, right?
Those are natural.

1707
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:24,700
Those naturally flow from that
set of ideas.

1708
01:50:24,800 --> 01:50:28,800
So let me just break this down.
Primarily for myself or anyone

1709
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:32,300
else, it's listening.
So these axioms serve as kind of

1710
01:50:32,300 --> 01:50:34,700
the base operating system if you
will.

1711
01:50:34,800 --> 01:50:38,400
Yeah.
For whatever it is, you could

1712
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:41,300
geometry or governments or
religion.

1713
01:50:41,300 --> 01:50:43,100
Yeah.
And we go back, we take every

1714
01:50:43,100 --> 01:50:47,400
proposition for this
mathematical, or legal, or

1715
01:50:47,400 --> 01:50:51,100
religious and we and we refer
back to the axioms to make sure

1716
01:50:51,100 --> 01:50:54,400
that the Axiom support The idea
that we've come up with.

1717
01:50:55,000 --> 01:50:56,100
Okay.
Yeah.

1718
01:50:56,100 --> 01:50:59,900
So you know, but then we just
had Independence Day.

1719
01:51:00,300 --> 01:51:04,300
So, if instead, you remember, I
said axioms are these

1720
01:51:04,400 --> 01:51:08,200
self-evident truths, right?
If instead, if we say no, no.

1721
01:51:08,500 --> 01:51:12,800
The self-evident thing that we
are agreeing on is that men are

1722
01:51:12,808 --> 01:51:17,400
created equal in the eyes of the
law, right?

1723
01:51:17,400 --> 01:51:20,000
And that they are endowed with
rights by their creator.

1724
01:51:20,400 --> 01:51:23,700
Right.
Rather than by the king And that

1725
01:51:23,700 --> 01:51:26,900
among those rights are life,
liberty property and the pursuit

1726
01:51:26,900 --> 01:51:31,300
of happiness.
And that those rights which are

1727
01:51:31,300 --> 01:51:35,800
were given to us by God or by
Nature, are inalienable that

1728
01:51:35,800 --> 01:51:37,600
means that they cannot be
separated from us, they like

1729
01:51:37,600 --> 01:51:41,400
intrinsic to our being.
Then if you take those as your

1730
01:51:41,400 --> 01:51:46,400
Axiom, then you'll infer that
governments are in fact created

1731
01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:50,300
by men because the men are the
source of the power, right?

1732
01:51:50,800 --> 01:51:54,100
And the governments derive,
their powers from the consent of

1733
01:51:54,108 --> 01:51:57,600
the government governed and that
governments and their officers

1734
01:51:57,600 --> 01:52:00,000
are accountable to the people
And that the government's may be

1735
01:52:00,000 --> 01:52:02,400
abolished and replaced by the
people as they see fit.

1736
01:52:03,300 --> 01:52:06,900
So you get a very different
outcome outcome if you start

1737
01:52:06,900 --> 01:52:09,100
with different foundational
principles, right?

1738
01:52:10,700 --> 01:52:14,800
So I know this is a long way to
get around if you're good, this

1739
01:52:14,800 --> 01:52:18,900
is great.
So so if we use this thing

1740
01:52:18,900 --> 01:52:26,800
right, the these axioms, What
then what axioms do we need to?

1741
01:52:26,800 --> 01:52:29,100
As you said in the beginning to
start, right?

1742
01:52:30,800 --> 01:52:32,200
Yeah, that's an excellent
question.

1743
01:52:32,800 --> 01:52:34,600
So that's and that's exactly
where I'm going.

1744
01:52:34,600 --> 01:52:37,900
Is what what I think to be
honest.

1745
01:52:37,900 --> 01:52:40,000
Some of the problem with
Mormonism.

1746
01:52:41,800 --> 01:52:46,200
For that.
Some some Mormons have so you so

1747
01:52:46,200 --> 01:52:50,400
we go to religion snacks, right?
So if we're Christian, which we

1748
01:52:50,400 --> 01:52:55,200
are, then we would start out
with there is a God, right?

1749
01:52:55,200 --> 01:52:57,500
That mean this goes to the
lectures on faith, Thrasher,

1750
01:52:57,500 --> 01:52:59,300
right?
First, we have an idea, there's

1751
01:52:59,300 --> 01:53:03,600
a God, you know, when we say
he's good, right?

1752
01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:09,100
We have a understanding of his
attributes and character, right?

1753
01:53:11,700 --> 01:53:16,300
You know that when you quote
here from the lectures on faith,

1754
01:53:16,800 --> 01:53:21,800
lecture 3 right 1 that he was he
was God before the world was

1755
01:53:21,800 --> 01:53:25,300
created and the same after it
was created.

1756
01:53:25,300 --> 01:53:28,000
Secondly that he is merciful
gracious slow to anger, right?

1757
01:53:28,100 --> 01:53:30,800
Third that he changes not
neither is there variableness

1758
01:53:30,800 --> 01:53:34,500
within him, he is the same from
Everlasting to Everlasting

1759
01:53:35,800 --> 01:53:38,000
fourthly that.
He's a god of Truth and cannot

1760
01:53:38,000 --> 01:53:42,800
lie, fifthly that he has no
Specter of persons 60 that he is

1761
01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:45,000
love, right?
And then there's attributes

1762
01:53:45,000 --> 01:53:47,500
listed to him and lecture for
knowledge, power Justice,

1763
01:53:47,500 --> 01:53:50,500
judgment mercy and truth.
And all of these things are

1764
01:53:50,500 --> 01:53:55,200
necessary because we want we
want to believe in a God that

1765
01:53:55,200 --> 01:54:01,000
exists and in a God, that knows
enough and is powerful enough

1766
01:54:01,800 --> 01:54:07,600
right to succeed in saving us.
And as merciful enough with us

1767
01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:13,300
to allow For our foibles and
sins and weaknesses and has a

1768
01:54:13,300 --> 01:54:15,800
plan to overcome those, right?
Okay.

1769
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:19,100
So those are all things that I
think most Christians would

1770
01:54:19,200 --> 01:54:24,100
agree with.
Right also as an axiom, not only

1771
01:54:24,100 --> 01:54:28,000
is God good and all these
things, but we understand that

1772
01:54:28,100 --> 01:54:31,000
he wants us to be with him,
right?

1773
01:54:32,600 --> 01:54:34,500
And that he has given us power
to choose.

1774
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:39,800
And the has provided a savior to
atone, so we can forgive and

1775
01:54:39,800 --> 01:54:44,100
plans despite our errant choices
and that application of the

1776
01:54:44,100 --> 01:54:46,800
atonement is dependent on our
faith and repentance.

1777
01:54:47,200 --> 01:54:49,900
Okay?
So then Mormonism comes along

1778
01:54:50,600 --> 01:54:55,200
and Mormonism will say, oh, I
will say one other thing, that's

1779
01:54:55,200 --> 01:54:58,300
a kind of a Christian Axiom and
this is a Jewish Axiom as well,

1780
01:54:58,900 --> 01:55:02,100
is that God has revealed his
will to us in the past, for our

1781
01:55:02,100 --> 01:55:04,500
conduct and salvation.
We call these things.

1782
01:55:05,700 --> 01:55:09,000
Right.
The scriptures so Mormonism will

1783
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:11,800
take all those axioms that
Christianity basically agrees

1784
01:55:11,800 --> 01:55:17,000
with and in addition will say,
but God continues to reveal his

1785
01:55:17,000 --> 01:55:21,800
will and and in fact this you
could think of this as an

1786
01:55:21,800 --> 01:55:31,400
extension of 4C which is that he
changes not, neither is there

1787
01:55:31,400 --> 01:55:34,000
variable in this within him but
he's the same from Everlasting

1788
01:55:34,000 --> 01:55:35,200
to Everlasting.
In other words.

1789
01:55:35,600 --> 01:55:39,400
God communicated man in the past
we expect since he does not

1790
01:55:39,400 --> 01:55:43,100
change that he will continue to
communicate to us.

1791
01:55:43,500 --> 01:55:46,300
Now here's where here's where
Mormonism goes.

1792
01:55:46,300 --> 01:55:56,300
Wrong is Is that we actually
sometimes we shrink this set of

1793
01:55:56,300 --> 01:56:02,600
axioms down to a single Axiom
which is follow the prophet,

1794
01:56:03,200 --> 01:56:06,900
right?
And every single thing in our

1795
01:56:06,900 --> 01:56:11,400
religion like this, this one and
one, only Axiom is actually

1796
01:56:11,900 --> 01:56:16,500
consistent independent and
complete because, well, it's

1797
01:56:16,500 --> 01:56:18,500
consistent because there's no
other axioms for it to

1798
01:56:18,500 --> 01:56:21,500
contradict with, It's
independent.

1799
01:56:21,500 --> 01:56:25,000
Again, there's only one and it's
complete because everything in

1800
01:56:25,000 --> 01:56:28,900
the religion can actually rest
upon that, okay?

1801
01:56:28,900 --> 01:56:33,500
Now the and that's fine as far
as that goes, but the problem is

1802
01:56:33,500 --> 01:56:40,400
that if you accept these other
axioms, Then and also accept

1803
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:46,400
follow the prophet as an axiom,
then you will have a problem if

1804
01:56:46,400 --> 01:56:50,700
those axioms contradict right,
because if an axiom contradicts

1805
01:56:50,700 --> 01:56:53,800
then you can prove or show or do
anything.

1806
01:56:54,300 --> 01:56:57,000
Right?
And so, and so that it's and

1807
01:56:57,000 --> 01:57:00,200
they do contradict right,
because we say God is eternal

1808
01:57:00,500 --> 01:57:03,100
and his his words are Eternal,
he does not lie.

1809
01:57:03,100 --> 01:57:06,700
He says something at.
He means it, and then the

1810
01:57:06,700 --> 01:57:10,100
prophet says, Something that is
different from what God Said in

1811
01:57:10,100 --> 01:57:12,600
the past.
And so these are at odds.

1812
01:57:13,200 --> 01:57:17,400
But since we accept follow the
prophet as an axiom, then we

1813
01:57:17,400 --> 01:57:22,900
just go with whatever whatever
happens to come, because there's

1814
01:57:22,900 --> 01:57:26,500
nothing is is no anchor.
Our set of axioms is

1815
01:57:26,500 --> 01:57:32,100
inconsistent and although,
although follow the prophet, if

1816
01:57:32,100 --> 01:57:35,200
that's your only acting like
it's consistent with itself, it

1817
01:57:35,200 --> 01:57:39,000
is inconsistent with.
The religion of Abraham, Isaac,

1818
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:41,200
and Jacob, right.
Exactly.

1819
01:57:41,500 --> 01:57:47,100
And, and, and it's that Axiom,
follow the prophet that I think,

1820
01:57:47,500 --> 01:57:58,100
has at times put Dogs.
The god-given gift of agency in

1821
01:57:58,100 --> 01:58:03,400
direct conflict with religion.
Yeah, right.

1822
01:58:04,000 --> 01:58:08,700
If that is the primary
directive, follow the prophet.

1823
01:58:11,300 --> 01:58:16,100
And nothing else matters.
That is a problem because now

1824
01:58:16,100 --> 01:58:21,200
you have subjugated your agency
to follow that one prime

1825
01:58:21,200 --> 01:58:22,400
directive.
Yeah.

1826
01:58:23,200 --> 01:58:26,700
And this this goes exactly to
what we're talking about with

1827
01:58:26,700 --> 01:58:29,400
the founding of our nation like
follow.

1828
01:58:29,400 --> 01:58:34,600
The prophet is is in fact the
religious equivalent of the

1829
01:58:34,600 --> 01:58:37,300
divine, right of kings it is
yep, it is.

1830
01:58:37,300 --> 01:58:42,600
This guy has all authority to
rule by decree.

1831
01:58:43,500 --> 01:58:48,000
Rather than, by tying it to law,
right?

1832
01:58:49,800 --> 01:58:53,200
And so, which I think is
important at this point, to sit

1833
01:58:53,200 --> 01:58:56,200
to point to point that out,
right?

1834
01:58:56,200 --> 01:59:03,200
Is that Joseph.
Smith did wasn't able to Create

1835
01:59:03,900 --> 01:59:08,300
this religion based on because I
said so, yeah, right.

1836
01:59:08,300 --> 01:59:13,000
You don't get that especially in
Jacksonian America, unless you

1837
01:59:13,000 --> 01:59:16,900
allow people to do their own
thinking And come to their own

1838
01:59:16,900 --> 01:59:18,700
conclusions.
Yeah.

1839
01:59:19,200 --> 01:59:25,500
Now, there are other the divine
right of kings, You know, that

1840
01:59:25,500 --> 01:59:29,900
that creates something called an
absolute monarchy.

1841
01:59:30,600 --> 01:59:33,700
But there are.
There it is possible to have a

1842
01:59:33,700 --> 01:59:36,500
constitutional monarchy.
Sure.

1843
01:59:36,500 --> 01:59:38,000
England, does it?
Yeah.

1844
01:59:38,000 --> 01:59:46,700
We're we're the king is
restrained, by the law and where

1845
01:59:48,000 --> 01:59:50,100
the people choose the King,
right?

1846
01:59:50,100 --> 01:59:54,400
The king derives his again, his
authority to govern From the

1847
01:59:54,400 --> 01:59:58,000
consent of the governed, rather
than from God.

1848
01:59:58,000 --> 02:00:00,500
And so, he's not accountable to
any of his subjects, right?

1849
02:00:01,200 --> 02:00:04,600
So there are, there are
certainly ways to have their

1850
02:00:04,600 --> 02:00:12,400
kinds of monarchies that are not
tyrannical necessarily but but

1851
02:00:12,400 --> 02:00:16,000
if your axioms allow for
tyranny, like it will manifest

1852
02:00:16,000 --> 02:00:18,900
itself, right?
In very short order, right?

1853
02:00:18,900 --> 02:00:21,300
Doesn't take long.
Yeah, yeah.

1854
02:00:21,400 --> 02:00:31,300
So So, I think so, sometimes I
jokingly not jokingly jokingly,

1855
02:00:31,300 --> 02:00:34,300
but also seriously call myself a
carrot Mormon.

1856
02:00:35,600 --> 02:00:37,700
So have you heard the term care
right before?

1857
02:00:37,700 --> 02:00:38,700
I haven't.
Okay.

1858
02:00:39,200 --> 02:00:39,700
Care.
Right?

1859
02:00:39,700 --> 02:00:45,100
Is a branch of Judaism.
Okay, so care, right means

1860
02:00:46,300 --> 02:00:49,700
readers.
Okay specifically readers of the

1861
02:00:49,700 --> 02:00:52,900
scripture, okay.
And care.

1862
02:00:52,900 --> 02:00:55,600
Right.
Care, right.

1863
02:00:55,600 --> 02:01:03,100
Jews are kind of in contrast to
rabbinical Judaism, and most of

1864
02:01:03,300 --> 02:01:07,000
most of Judaism today is
rabbinical Judaism, the

1865
02:01:07,000 --> 02:01:13,800
Orthodox, and the reform, and
the Hasidic Jews, and almost all

1866
02:01:13,800 --> 02:01:16,200
the kinds of Jews.
That you normally think of they

1867
02:01:16,200 --> 02:01:20,000
are branches of rabbinic Judaism
and rabbinic.

1868
02:01:20,000 --> 02:01:26,200
Judaism basically has The same
idea.

1869
02:01:28,200 --> 02:01:31,500
That is kind of the same idea as
follow the prophet.

1870
02:01:31,800 --> 02:01:36,100
I could they say, God has given
his authority to the rabbi's and

1871
02:01:36,100 --> 02:01:39,400
the rabbi's.
Therefore, if they deem

1872
02:01:39,400 --> 02:01:45,500
necessary, may change contradict
add to subtract from the law of

1873
02:01:45,500 --> 02:01:49,100
God.
Depending on the circumstances

1874
02:01:49,100 --> 02:01:52,400
circumstances, whims personal
preference, whatever.

1875
02:01:53,300 --> 02:01:57,100
So it's not exactly the same as
the Mormon idea, but there's

1876
02:01:57,100 --> 02:02:03,500
like some similarities there and
So I think that this is I think

1877
02:02:03,500 --> 02:02:09,300
that this is a problem and so
carrots actually reject that for

1878
02:02:09,300 --> 02:02:16,400
the Jews.
For the Jews.

1879
02:02:17,600 --> 02:02:23,400
The, a lot of the the Traditions
actually Will trump the

1880
02:02:23,400 --> 02:02:27,300
scriptures and traditions are
found in books like the talmud

1881
02:02:30,000 --> 02:02:35,400
and in some in some places.
I have to have to give a caveat

1882
02:02:35,400 --> 02:02:39,500
here because tradition is
necessary, right?

1883
02:02:39,500 --> 02:02:44,000
Tradition is 100% necessary
because the scriptures don't

1884
02:02:44,000 --> 02:02:48,700
actually spell out.
Everything nor does the law like

1885
02:02:48,700 --> 02:02:52,800
the law of the company of the
Constitution or the laws of the

1886
02:02:52,800 --> 02:02:55,200
state of Utah.
They don't spell out everything

1887
02:02:55,200 --> 02:02:59,500
that we should be doing every
day and in every situation we

1888
02:02:59,500 --> 02:03:02,600
have to kind of fill in our
actions, you know, with

1889
02:03:02,700 --> 02:03:06,300
traditions Their own
understanding, but the problem

1890
02:03:06,300 --> 02:03:11,500
arises, when, and Jesus had a
lot to say about this, when the

1891
02:03:11,500 --> 02:03:15,800
Traditions become elevated to
the level of Commandments,

1892
02:03:16,000 --> 02:03:22,000
right?
So so if you are, if you work

1893
02:03:22,000 --> 02:03:22,800
are right.
Mormon.

1894
02:03:25,200 --> 02:03:27,700
Then you would have all those
axioms that I mentioned for

1895
02:03:27,700 --> 02:03:30,400
Christianity.
Plus the Axiom that God can

1896
02:03:30,400 --> 02:03:38,100
still continue to reveal himself
but but you would you would say

1897
02:03:39,000 --> 02:03:48,700
that the words change and lie
and forever actually mean what?

1898
02:03:48,700 --> 02:03:53,000
We normally think of okay so
when we say God does not change

1899
02:03:53,100 --> 02:03:57,700
like we actually mean he's It
doesn't lie and and When God

1900
02:03:57,700 --> 02:04:00,800
Says something is forever, like
he wants you to do this forever.

1901
02:04:01,100 --> 02:04:06,000
We just accept it as face value
because this is, this is the

1902
02:04:06,000 --> 02:04:09,800
problem that Christianity has to
a lot of times, is they'll say

1903
02:04:10,300 --> 02:04:12,800
yes.
Yes, we believe God is forever.

1904
02:04:12,800 --> 02:04:17,700
His words are forever and will s
accept that as an axiom, but

1905
02:04:17,700 --> 02:04:23,600
will also say that Jesus did
away with all that stuff, right?

1906
02:04:23,600 --> 02:04:26,300
And both of these are true.
Which means we can do whatever

1907
02:04:26,300 --> 02:04:29,500
we want again, right?
Right here, we can say no,

1908
02:04:30,000 --> 02:04:32,700
actually these these
Commandments, you know, Passover

1909
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:35,500
and the feast.
Like, we don't do those anymore

1910
02:04:36,100 --> 02:04:39,900
and some will even go.
So far as to say, like, doing

1911
02:04:39,900 --> 02:04:42,000
the feasts is like a wicked
thing.

1912
02:04:42,000 --> 02:04:46,100
Now like it was righteous and
now is wicked Echo.

1913
02:04:46,100 --> 02:04:50,300
Actually, fulfill Isaiah's
prophecy about calling good evil

1914
02:04:50,400 --> 02:04:51,700
and evil.
Good fact.

1915
02:04:51,700 --> 02:04:56,100
My dad, my dad had that Perience
more than once.

1916
02:04:56,600 --> 02:04:58,600
We had move around.
We moved quite a bit.

1917
02:04:58,600 --> 02:05:01,300
When I was young, my parents was
trying to find a place.

1918
02:05:01,300 --> 02:05:05,500
They could afford mostly but my
dad loved to do like Passover

1919
02:05:05,500 --> 02:05:10,600
for the elders, Quorum and stuff
or whatever for the ward, have

1920
02:05:10,600 --> 02:05:14,500
award dinner Ryan, sometimes the
bishop or the stake president be

1921
02:05:14,500 --> 02:05:16,200
like yeah, that sounds super
interesting.

1922
02:05:16,600 --> 02:05:20,000
And they would do it and it
would be edifying and

1923
02:05:20,100 --> 02:05:22,600
enlightening and a good
experience.

1924
02:05:22,600 --> 02:05:25,300
And sometimes the bishop or the
stake president, To be like,

1925
02:05:25,500 --> 02:05:29,100
absolutely not like we are not
doing that apostate.

1926
02:05:29,100 --> 02:05:31,600
Jewish stuff.
We're gonna have we're gonna

1927
02:05:31,600 --> 02:05:34,700
have a word Halloween party, you
know, but we will not do

1928
02:05:34,700 --> 02:05:37,200
Passover, that's evil, you know,
right.

1929
02:05:37,200 --> 02:05:42,400
And it's like so but if you
have, if you have a

1930
02:05:42,400 --> 02:05:46,000
contradiction in your axioms
then you're allowed to cut and

1931
02:05:46,000 --> 02:05:48,100
paste and change and do whatever
you want.

1932
02:05:48,100 --> 02:05:50,300
And I can prove that you fly,
right?

1933
02:05:50,400 --> 02:05:55,000
If we had, if we start with
anything contradictory, then we

1934
02:05:55,000 --> 02:05:56,900
can actually arrive anywhere we
want.

1935
02:05:57,900 --> 02:06:00,800
Okay.
So this this brings up a couple

1936
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:06,000
questions and maybe you're going
to get to this in a second.

1937
02:06:06,000 --> 02:06:13,700
So, if so, just tell me slow
down, how do we How do we make

1938
02:06:13,700 --> 02:06:18,500
sure that our Traditions aren't
becoming vain traditions of our

1939
02:06:18,500 --> 02:06:21,400
fathers, right?
Because I think that's problem

1940
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:24,200
that Jesus.
I don't think I know that's

1941
02:06:24,200 --> 02:06:27,300
problem that Jesus had to
contend with, in the New

1942
02:06:27,300 --> 02:06:28,900
Testament, right?
Yeah.

1943
02:06:29,000 --> 02:06:35,000
Because you had the Pharisees
who were who had all these other

1944
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:38,800
Traditions that had creeped in
that had become part of the law.

1945
02:06:38,800 --> 02:06:41,500
They had become elevated.
That's exactly right.

1946
02:06:41,600 --> 02:06:48,600
How do we Make sure that.
We don't if we do these feasts

1947
02:06:48,600 --> 02:06:52,900
and these sorts of things that
they don't become more important

1948
02:06:52,900 --> 02:06:55,500
than the message itself to save
yourself.

1949
02:06:55,500 --> 02:07:00,300
Oh, that's that's kind of a
separate question started.

1950
02:07:00,300 --> 02:07:03,800
Two questions there, I think.
Yeah, I think it is super

1951
02:07:03,800 --> 02:07:08,100
important to Anchor ourselves.
And I and the, like, the Book of

1952
02:07:08,100 --> 02:07:11,800
Mormon, authors are very clear
about this, like they kept the

1953
02:07:11,800 --> 02:07:19,700
law as well, but It was always
these things are pointing us

1954
02:07:19,900 --> 02:07:25,800
towards Christ, right?
He is the end of the law.

1955
02:07:26,500 --> 02:07:30,900
Meaning he is what everything is
pointing towards.

1956
02:07:32,200 --> 02:07:38,100
He is the goal and and Jesus
would say things like that to in

1957
02:07:38,400 --> 02:07:47,700
his mortal Ministry.
There's one time when he says, I

1958
02:07:47,700 --> 02:07:49,900
am the light of the world, you
know?

1959
02:07:49,900 --> 02:07:53,300
And this was a remember, right?
This was during probably during

1960
02:07:53,300 --> 02:07:57,100
Tabernacles and they were one of
the things like part of their

1961
02:07:57,100 --> 02:08:00,900
celebrations, they would light
these big menorahs in the temple

1962
02:08:00,900 --> 02:08:05,000
Courtyard and stuff.
That he like is this rabble

1963
02:08:05,000 --> 02:08:08,000
Rouser and he's like you know
that you're doing that because

1964
02:08:08,000 --> 02:08:12,300
of me, you know I that's me yeah
you're symbolically enacting

1965
02:08:13,000 --> 02:08:15,700
what I am doing right here.
So pay attention, you know.

1966
02:08:16,600 --> 02:08:20,400
And you know there's another
time when they have the this

1967
02:08:20,700 --> 02:08:22,800
water libation.
Serve there's water pouring

1968
02:08:22,800 --> 02:08:27,000
ceremony with the pour water
from the gihon spring onto it.

1969
02:08:27,300 --> 02:08:31,000
And he says, I am, you know, the
Waters of life, you know,

1970
02:08:31,000 --> 02:08:32,900
whoever drinks the water I give
you.

1971
02:08:33,100 --> 02:08:35,500
Never thirst.
Like this stuff that you're

1972
02:08:35,500 --> 02:08:39,200
doing is symbolic of me and
because Kristen can make it made

1973
02:08:39,200 --> 02:08:44,500
some people pretty upset right
that he would upset their

1974
02:08:44,500 --> 02:08:47,400
Traditions, you sure?
So I think that's super

1975
02:08:47,400 --> 02:08:52,200
important to actually, it's one
of the Beautiful Things

1976
02:08:52,200 --> 02:08:59,300
actually, because a lot of the
holidays that we celebrate As

1977
02:08:59,300 --> 02:09:03,800
Gentiles, they're fun.
You know, Valentine's Day and

1978
02:09:03,800 --> 02:09:05,500
st.
Patrick's Day and Halloween, and

1979
02:09:06,000 --> 02:09:10,600
Christmas and Easter, and, you
know, and a lot of them have

1980
02:09:10,800 --> 02:09:14,600
they have meaning, but they're
kind of just like separate

1981
02:09:14,900 --> 02:09:17,600
things like st.
Patrick's Day doesn't have

1982
02:09:17,600 --> 02:09:19,800
anything to do with managing
stained.

1983
02:09:19,900 --> 02:09:22,900
Know nowadays, they doesn't have
anything at all to do with New

1984
02:09:22,900 --> 02:09:27,900
Year's Eve, you know?
But when you look at the feasts

1985
02:09:27,900 --> 02:09:31,600
that were given to Israel to
keep forever there is this

1986
02:09:31,600 --> 02:09:36,700
common Read continuation through
every single one of them and

1987
02:09:36,700 --> 02:09:42,200
they all point to the same
things and so that's really kind

1988
02:09:42,200 --> 02:09:46,200
of a beautiful thing.
It kind of ties ties your whole

1989
02:09:46,200 --> 02:09:47,400
year together.
You know.

1990
02:09:47,400 --> 02:09:51,800
And there's this continual
reminder which is what we're

1991
02:09:51,800 --> 02:09:54,200
supposed to be doing anyway.
We're supposed to be thinking

1992
02:09:54,200 --> 02:10:02,700
about him all the time.
Absolute so I lost my train of

1993
02:10:02,700 --> 02:10:05,000
thought there.
No, we were just talking about

1994
02:10:05,000 --> 02:10:07,800
trying to make sure that oh
yeah, go ahead.

1995
02:10:07,800 --> 02:10:11,500
Yeah, and the other thing, the
other thing you asked was, how

1996
02:10:11,500 --> 02:10:16,000
do we, how do we make sure that
our Traditions don't become vain

1997
02:10:16,100 --> 02:10:19,500
traditions?
And I think that's, it's so

1998
02:10:19,500 --> 02:10:28,900
important to Again, two to tie
ourselves to the scriptures

1999
02:10:30,000 --> 02:10:37,200
really and and take and take it
as an axiom.

2000
02:10:37,800 --> 02:10:42,900
That the scriptures are more
important than the Traditions.

2001
02:10:43,100 --> 02:10:47,100
Although the scriptures allow
for variation in how people

2002
02:10:48,700 --> 02:10:53,200
celebrate or keep the
Commandments. but there needs to

2003
02:10:53,200 --> 02:10:58,800
be there needs to be this
freedom and what people need to

2004
02:10:58,800 --> 02:11:05,900
remember, is Is that is not to
be offended if someone

2005
02:11:06,200 --> 02:11:10,300
interprets a scripture a little
differently than they do, right?

2006
02:11:10,600 --> 02:11:16,900
If someone You know, whatever.
It's someone has a different

2007
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:19,700
matzo recipe, you know.
But I mean the Jews actually

2008
02:11:19,700 --> 02:11:24,100
have laws about.
They have laws about how the

2009
02:11:24,100 --> 02:11:27,100
matzo can be made and if it's
not made in this very specific

2010
02:11:27,100 --> 02:11:31,400
way than it is invalid, then you
cannot use it like but all these

2011
02:11:31,600 --> 02:11:34,800
rules that they have, none of
those are actually what the

2012
02:11:34,800 --> 02:11:38,300
scriptures say, right?
Like it just says, eat flatbread

2013
02:11:38,700 --> 02:11:44,900
to remind you about the haste.
Which you left Egypt, and to

2014
02:11:44,900 --> 02:11:48,400
remind you about the, the
suffering that happened when

2015
02:11:48,400 --> 02:11:52,300
you're in the wilderness.
And, and to remind you when it

2016
02:11:52,300 --> 02:11:55,500
comes time to celebrate and
Passover, that, you know, that I

2017
02:11:55,500 --> 02:11:59,600
was without letting you know
that I was without sin and

2018
02:11:59,600 --> 02:12:03,500
without mixed, you know, that
was nothing mixed in me but what

2019
02:12:03,500 --> 02:12:06,700
the pure the purest ingredients
or whatever.

2020
02:12:09,200 --> 02:12:16,000
So then you know if it's if it's
You actually I remember as a as

2021
02:12:16,000 --> 02:12:17,800
a youth, you just reminded of
the story.

2022
02:12:17,800 --> 02:12:21,900
When I became a teacher and the
LDS church transfer, I'm 14

2023
02:12:21,900 --> 02:12:26,200
years old and your deacons past
Sacrament teachers help to

2024
02:12:26,200 --> 02:12:28,500
prepare it, right?
They set out the trays and

2025
02:12:28,500 --> 02:12:30,800
stuff, right?
Priest or the one that bless it

2026
02:12:31,000 --> 02:12:33,000
and then your the deacons and
teachers priests pass it

2027
02:12:33,000 --> 02:12:36,600
usually.
But my mom was had this

2028
02:12:36,600 --> 02:12:38,800
excellent recipe for homemade
bread.

2029
02:12:38,900 --> 02:12:42,600
And she shared it with many
people loved it and you know,

2030
02:12:42,600 --> 02:12:44,600
had my little interview With the
bishop.

2031
02:12:44,600 --> 02:12:46,700
And he was talking to me about
my duties as a teacher and

2032
02:12:46,708 --> 02:12:50,300
stuff, and how I'd be asked to
bring the bread sometimes, and I

2033
02:12:50,300 --> 02:12:53,400
said, oh, that's perfect.
I'll my mom has this great Brad.

2034
02:12:53,400 --> 02:12:56,900
She'll make a loaf of homemade
whole wheat bread, you know?

2035
02:12:56,900 --> 02:13:02,600
And we'll bring it and he's
like, no, we want to have white

2036
02:13:02,600 --> 02:13:07,300
bread for the sacrament because,
you know, we just reminds us of

2037
02:13:07,300 --> 02:13:09,600
how pure it's more pure, you
know.

2038
02:13:09,800 --> 02:13:12,400
Wow.
And and I was like, okay, you

2039
02:13:12,400 --> 02:13:14,700
know, I don't Don't.
But, you know, looking back, I'm

2040
02:13:14,700 --> 02:13:17,000
like, scriptures.
Don't say white bread.

2041
02:13:17,000 --> 02:13:19,800
No, it probably wasn't even a
thing that you know, that Jesus

2042
02:13:19,800 --> 02:13:21,000
didn't have white bread, you
know?

2043
02:13:21,000 --> 02:13:23,400
And he had the Last Supper when
he said, eat this in remembrance

2044
02:13:23,400 --> 02:13:25,500
of my body.
And, yeah, I'm not sure the

2045
02:13:25,500 --> 02:13:27,700
early Pioneers had white bread.
No.

2046
02:13:27,700 --> 02:13:32,300
So we just like, there's
absolutely nothing wrong with

2047
02:13:32,700 --> 02:13:34,500
whole wheat bread for the
sacrament, you know?

2048
02:13:35,300 --> 02:13:40,000
And but but if we, we just build
tradition upon tradition, upon

2049
02:13:40,000 --> 02:13:44,900
tradition and never like, go
back to check, And then we start

2050
02:13:44,900 --> 02:13:48,200
to get we'll just we'll just
make up traditions and turn them

2051
02:13:48,200 --> 02:13:50,500
into Commandments.
I said I don't have a problem

2052
02:13:50,500 --> 02:13:55,200
with Traditions it's not like if
he if the bishop it said well I

2053
02:13:55,200 --> 02:13:57,900
prefer white bread you know but
if that's all you have that's

2054
02:13:57,900 --> 02:13:59,100
fine.
But I prefer white bread for

2055
02:13:59,108 --> 02:14:02,200
this reason like it's a
meaningful to me but there's

2056
02:14:02,200 --> 02:14:07,100
nothing against it. you know,
then you know then that I think

2057
02:14:07,100 --> 02:14:10,700
is great like if someone has a
preference but you just need to

2058
02:14:10,700 --> 02:14:14,900
be sure that it's The you
elevate preferences or even

2059
02:14:14,900 --> 02:14:17,400
meaningful Traditions to the
level of Commandments?

2060
02:14:17,700 --> 02:14:23,100
No, I think that's great.
You know, it's a, it's, this is,

2061
02:14:23,100 --> 02:14:28,900
this is another problem because
problem that If you look at

2062
02:14:28,900 --> 02:14:33,600
Christians and Jews and compare
it to compare what they believe.

2063
02:14:34,000 --> 02:14:36,000
And I, you lump Mormons in with
the Christians.

2064
02:14:36,500 --> 02:14:39,700
Compare what they believe to the
scriptures.

2065
02:14:40,600 --> 02:14:45,000
The scriptures in many places,
say, something along the lines

2066
02:14:45,000 --> 02:14:50,700
of you shall not add to, or
subtract from what I have

2067
02:14:50,700 --> 02:14:54,400
commanded you and or do not
deviate to the right hand, or to

2068
02:14:54,400 --> 02:14:57,400
the left, or anything more or
less than this.

2069
02:14:57,600 --> 02:15:04,400
Cometh of evil and Jews.
For the most part, have added a

2070
02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:09,600
bunch more things to the law and
Christians have subtracted, a

2071
02:15:09,608 --> 02:15:13,300
bunch of things, and they're
both like in error, went on to

2072
02:15:13,300 --> 02:15:17,100
the left and one on the right.
And I think what the scriptures

2073
02:15:17,100 --> 02:15:20,800
say is in the middle somewhere
right now, I'd agree with that

2074
02:15:20,800 --> 02:15:26,900
wholeheartedly and and I go back
to something as a surveyor which

2075
02:15:26,900 --> 02:15:32,800
is You may start out if you
only, if you're trying to lay

2076
02:15:32,800 --> 02:15:37,100
something out and you're off in
your bearing, let's say half a

2077
02:15:37,108 --> 02:15:38,300
degree.
Yeah.

2078
02:15:38,600 --> 02:15:41,200
And you're only going 10 feet.
You're going to see a

2079
02:15:41,200 --> 02:15:42,700
difference?
No, no, no.

2080
02:15:42,700 --> 02:15:45,000
You maybe a couple hundredths,
right?

2081
02:15:45,100 --> 02:15:49,500
Yeah, but if you extrapolate
that line out, half a mile, a

2082
02:15:49,500 --> 02:15:53,900
mile two miles.
It exponentially Grows, Right?

2083
02:15:53,900 --> 02:15:58,900
Yeah, it continues to grow into
to expound and The point where

2084
02:15:58,900 --> 02:16:02,700
all the sudden where you
intended to go, you're hundreds

2085
02:16:02,700 --> 02:16:07,500
of miles away.
And so I think you're 100% right

2086
02:16:07,500 --> 02:16:10,800
that with some of these things
that are Traditions, which are

2087
02:16:10,800 --> 02:16:13,500
fine.
We constantly have to be giving

2088
02:16:13,500 --> 02:16:17,000
bearing checks, right?
Are we really on the course

2089
02:16:17,000 --> 02:16:19,300
we're supposed to be?
Let's look back a little bit.

2090
02:16:19,300 --> 02:16:21,100
Yeah let's see where we're at
now.

2091
02:16:21,100 --> 02:16:24,300
Let's try to figure out where
we're going because often times

2092
02:16:24,300 --> 02:16:27,400
if you're not careful and some
of those Traditions they'll

2093
02:16:27,400 --> 02:16:29,000
throw you off course.
Yeah.

2094
02:16:29,400 --> 02:16:32,400
And they and they get it
compounds, it compacts.

2095
02:16:32,500 --> 02:16:37,299
Once we once we detach ourselves
And say this tradition is now.

2096
02:16:38,600 --> 02:16:44,100
I mean it's essentially that we
we we make our set of axioms

2097
02:16:44,100 --> 02:16:48,400
inconsistent.
Yep say now this tradition is a

2098
02:16:48,500 --> 02:16:52,000
commandment which actually
violates what the scriptures

2099
02:16:52,000 --> 02:16:52,900
say.
Yep.

2100
02:16:52,900 --> 02:16:55,600
Because going to say don't make
your Traditions Commandments but

2101
02:16:55,600 --> 02:16:59,700
when we say that is then
suddenly we can do anything we

2102
02:16:59,700 --> 02:17:00,900
want.
Absolutely.

2103
02:17:01,400 --> 02:17:03,299
Yeah.
So it's yeah.

2104
02:17:03,299 --> 02:17:10,200
It's that's a beautiful.
Example, with the surveying.

2105
02:17:10,500 --> 02:17:13,500
Yeah, yeah.
Just keeping it tied or chained

2106
02:17:13,500 --> 02:17:18,100
to a correct bearing.
The correct bearing.

2107
02:17:18,100 --> 02:17:19,700
The correct heading Q.
Yep.

2108
02:17:20,100 --> 02:17:27,100
Yeah.
So you're so, so I'll if, if

2109
02:17:27,100 --> 02:17:34,299
those are, if those are our
axioms as a carrot Mormon, then

2110
02:17:34,600 --> 02:17:41,799
the kind of religion that
follows from that. is that you

2111
02:17:41,799 --> 02:17:45,000
know the since God's words and
commands are forever and he does

2112
02:17:45,000 --> 02:17:49,200
not lie or change then any new
scripture must harmonize with

2113
02:17:49,200 --> 02:17:52,200
and support are not common or at
least not contradict previous

2114
02:17:52,200 --> 02:18:01,799
scripture and And that also
means that that God's words or

2115
02:18:01,799 --> 02:18:07,100
his plan, for salvation also
does not change like there's not

2116
02:18:07,100 --> 02:18:11,100
been God, has not had different
plans of salvation for different

2117
02:18:11,100 --> 02:18:12,700
groups of people in different
times.

2118
02:18:13,799 --> 02:18:16,600
So we're doing fine.
Are we doing final time?

2119
02:18:16,600 --> 02:18:19,799
We're doing fine.
Okay, look these I set these up

2120
02:18:19,799 --> 02:18:23,100
to be long-form conversation.
All right, so weak I can go as

2121
02:18:23,100 --> 02:18:29,700
long as you can, okay.
All right.

2122
02:18:29,900 --> 02:18:33,000
So any any other thoughts from
you before?

2123
02:18:33,200 --> 02:18:35,000
No.
No, I think that's great.

2124
02:18:35,900 --> 02:18:43,400
I'm thoroughly enjoying now.
My it took me a while to kind of

2125
02:18:43,900 --> 02:18:46,799
arrive at this at these
conclusions.

2126
02:18:48,299 --> 02:18:53,400
But my my conclusions right now
and I feel like they are well

2127
02:18:53,400 --> 02:18:56,700
supported and we'll get into
some of that here in a minute.

2128
02:18:56,700 --> 02:19:01,200
But like I don't, I don't
believe that any Commandment

2129
02:19:01,200 --> 02:19:04,900
that God has ever given is done
away.

2130
02:19:06,200 --> 02:19:11,400
Now, I have to put a caveat on
that because I'm speaking about

2131
02:19:12,100 --> 02:19:16,400
General Commandments, right?
So God commanded Noah to build

2132
02:19:16,400 --> 02:19:18,299
an ark.
I don't think that that means I

2133
02:19:18,299 --> 02:19:19,400
need to build an ark and you
need.

2134
02:19:19,400 --> 02:19:21,400
Everyone needs to build an ark,
right?

2135
02:19:21,400 --> 02:19:24,100
Right.
I think that they're in you.

2136
02:19:24,100 --> 02:19:28,700
I believe that God does and can
give specific instructions to

2137
02:19:28,700 --> 02:19:33,400
specific people and he can tell
you to do the Mormon Renegade

2138
02:19:33,400 --> 02:19:37,900
podcast and not me and that's,
that's totally fine.

2139
02:19:38,600 --> 02:19:43,500
That might fall more Under The
Heading of a mission, right?

2140
02:19:43,500 --> 02:19:45,299
This.
Yes, this is your assignment.

2141
02:19:45,400 --> 02:19:50,000
Not so much a commandment I
think there's just some

2142
02:19:50,000 --> 02:19:58,900
semantics there, but I do think
I do think that not everyone's

2143
02:19:58,900 --> 02:20:01,200
sins are going to be the same.
Right?

2144
02:20:01,400 --> 02:20:06,100
Because I think if you receive a
specific assignment and you fail

2145
02:20:06,100 --> 02:20:09,700
in that or don't or turn away
like Jonah running away from

2146
02:20:10,400 --> 02:20:13,600
Nineveh or whatever, like we're
not all commanded to go preach

2147
02:20:13,600 --> 02:20:18,000
to Nineveh Jonah was and so that
was a sin for him where I not

2148
02:20:18,100 --> 02:20:20,000
Nineveh.
It's not a sin for me too.

2149
02:20:20,200 --> 02:20:23,400
I never have to visit Minima
Universe in my life but I want

2150
02:20:23,400 --> 02:20:35,000
to so You know, that actually
brings up talking about God's

2151
02:20:35,000 --> 02:20:39,300
plan and about what he wants of
us.

2152
02:20:39,900 --> 02:20:43,000
You know, brings up the
question, what is sin?

2153
02:20:45,300 --> 02:20:49,400
And so if you have a definition,
what is sin?

2154
02:20:49,400 --> 02:21:00,000
So I remember, I I had a friend.
Who again, I met back East, I

2155
02:21:00,000 --> 02:21:02,200
had so many cool trick,
interesting.

2156
02:21:02,200 --> 02:21:05,400
People back East it is he was
Greek.

2157
02:21:06,300 --> 02:21:09,100
Hmm.
And he was a Greek, Orthodox

2158
02:21:09,100 --> 02:21:13,800
residence.
And he had the most interesting

2159
02:21:14,600 --> 02:21:20,500
take on the word sin.
He said, in the Greek, Sin means

2160
02:21:20,700 --> 02:21:24,100
to miss the mark, that's an
archery term.

2161
02:21:24,100 --> 02:21:27,200
It's an Archer, right?
It's to miss the mark.

2162
02:21:29,200 --> 02:21:33,300
And in some ways I really like
that because as a guy who's

2163
02:21:33,300 --> 02:21:37,700
supremely flawed like I am that
gives me the opportunity to say,

2164
02:21:38,000 --> 02:21:39,300
I screwed up.
Yeah.

2165
02:21:39,600 --> 02:21:41,700
But I'm practicing.
Yeah.

2166
02:21:41,700 --> 02:21:45,500
And I'm going to continue to try
to hit the mark.

2167
02:21:45,700 --> 02:21:49,100
Hmm.
No, yeah, nah, that's beautiful.

2168
02:21:49,700 --> 02:21:55,700
I think sometimes people get If
you get overwhelmed sometimes.

2169
02:21:55,900 --> 02:21:59,100
Yeah.
The with trying to be righteous,

2170
02:21:59,700 --> 02:22:04,000
I think I think Mormonism has
developed its own culture, which

2171
02:22:04,000 --> 02:22:09,500
really plays into that heavily
agreed and not that having those

2172
02:22:09,500 --> 02:22:13,000
goals aren't good.
But if you're missing the

2173
02:22:13,000 --> 02:22:16,700
lessons along the way, you're
kind of missing the point.

2174
02:22:16,900 --> 02:22:23,000
Yeah, yeah, no.
I mean Evangelical Christians

2175
02:22:23,000 --> 02:22:24,900
have a lot of good stuff to say
about Grace.

2176
02:22:25,300 --> 02:22:26,100
They.
Yeah.

2177
02:22:26,100 --> 02:22:30,600
And we forget that sometimes as
Mormons because the honestly,

2178
02:22:33,500 --> 02:22:42,500
yeah, God gives us weaknesses so
that we can rely on him.

2179
02:22:42,600 --> 02:22:46,700
This is ether either.
I can't remember I can't board

2180
02:22:46,700 --> 02:22:49,300
as well as I knew which talking.
Yeah, gives men weaknesses that

2181
02:22:49,300 --> 02:22:52,300
they might be made strong, you
know, if we rely on him.

2182
02:22:53,200 --> 02:23:01,900
So is there's a And your
weaknesses. weaknesses are not

2183
02:23:01,900 --> 02:23:13,400
sins necessarily and even sins
themselves are In one sense, I

2184
02:23:13,408 --> 02:23:18,800
have to be careful here.
I could say there's no sin shame

2185
02:23:18,900 --> 02:23:24,200
in being a sinner because you're
just among other sinner like

2186
02:23:24,200 --> 02:23:29,700
everyone's a sinner.
On the other hand, there is a

2187
02:23:29,700 --> 02:23:32,200
lot of Shame, if you just
decide, you're going to stay

2188
02:23:32,200 --> 02:23:35,500
there, I think it's about
intent, right?

2189
02:23:35,500 --> 02:23:42,400
And I often go back to when I
was playing football. um, It's a

2190
02:23:42,400 --> 02:23:44,500
sad truth, which I can't even
say.

2191
02:23:44,500 --> 02:23:47,500
It's a statue, it's a truth
uncomfortable.

2192
02:23:47,500 --> 02:23:51,700
I know maybe that we learn way
more from our mistakes.

2193
02:23:52,000 --> 02:23:54,500
Yeah, then we do from our
victories, a lot of times,

2194
02:23:54,600 --> 02:23:57,800
right?
Breaking down game film.

2195
02:23:57,800 --> 02:24:01,900
Where you sucked is a horrible
experience, right?

2196
02:24:02,000 --> 02:24:05,600
Because it's so educational.
It's on display for everybody to

2197
02:24:05,600 --> 02:24:10,600
see right now.
What's interesting and it took

2198
02:24:10,600 --> 02:24:13,800
me a long time to notice Took me
actually coaching the game.

2199
02:24:13,900 --> 02:24:18,200
When I lived in a small town in
Idaho for a small high school is

2200
02:24:18,200 --> 02:24:22,200
that you may point out that
coach may have pointed out.

2201
02:24:22,200 --> 02:24:26,300
Everybody else everybody else is
failures but you think yours is

2202
02:24:26,300 --> 02:24:31,000
the worst now?
Rewrite, this this is the

2203
02:24:31,000 --> 02:24:33,400
intent, right?
This, this is where I think we

2204
02:24:33,400 --> 02:24:37,400
need to look at our sin.
With a certain intent.

2205
02:24:37,700 --> 02:24:40,800
You're breaking down game film.
Let's look at this.

2206
02:24:40,900 --> 02:24:43,300
Let's study this house.
Why did you do this?

2207
02:24:43,500 --> 02:24:45,500
Yeah, let's not do this again,
instead.

2208
02:24:45,500 --> 02:24:49,500
Let's do this.
I think, I think if we can Can

2209
02:24:49,500 --> 02:24:53,500
use our mistakes in our mishaps,
our sin, in such a way to get

2210
02:24:53,500 --> 02:24:54,400
better.
Yeah.

2211
02:24:54,500 --> 02:24:57,200
I think we're working the plan.
I think that's, that's the data.

2212
02:24:57,200 --> 02:25:00,200
That's right.
You are working the plan.

2213
02:25:00,200 --> 02:25:02,800
Good for you.
You must experience that dryer.

2214
02:25:02,900 --> 02:25:03,700
Yeah.
Yeah.

2215
02:25:04,100 --> 02:25:06,600
If you're well, crap, I screwed
up.

2216
02:25:06,600 --> 02:25:08,700
I'm just done trying.
And I'm just going to stay here

2217
02:25:08,700 --> 02:25:11,300
and keep screwing up.
That's different.

2218
02:25:11,400 --> 02:25:14,000
That's right.
And so, I think it's the intent,

2219
02:25:14,000 --> 02:25:15,800
right?
Yeah, actions.

2220
02:25:17,100 --> 02:25:20,600
I mean actions don't always
actions.

2221
02:25:20,600 --> 02:25:23,900
Don't reveal intent.
Hmm, I'll not always mean.

2222
02:25:23,900 --> 02:25:27,900
No, they definitely connected
but but I think that's

2223
02:25:27,900 --> 02:25:30,700
important.
My wife Charlotte.

2224
02:25:30,700 --> 02:25:37,500
Just she watched an interesting
video teaching this principle

2225
02:25:37,800 --> 02:25:44,500
about like how to criticize
someone in a in like the most

2226
02:25:44,500 --> 02:25:48,100
productive way because when Like
corrects a correct.

2227
02:25:48,100 --> 02:25:50,100
I should say rather than
criticize when someone corrects

2228
02:25:50,100 --> 02:25:53,100
or criticizes us.
Like we take it personally.

2229
02:25:53,200 --> 02:25:57,200
Mhm.
And the reason for that is like

2230
02:25:57,200 --> 02:26:00,700
we think that they're saying, we
think that they're saying we are

2231
02:26:00,700 --> 02:26:04,100
a bad person, you know, we're
like we're not worth as much or

2232
02:26:04,100 --> 02:26:07,700
something.
When really, when really they're

2233
02:26:07,700 --> 02:26:10,700
just criticizing what we were
doing that.

2234
02:26:10,700 --> 02:26:13,200
We weren't doing it in the best
way, or we do, we're doing it in

2235
02:26:13,200 --> 02:26:15,800
a way that was annoying or
whatever.

2236
02:26:16,900 --> 02:26:22,500
And as long as as long as if
you're the one criticizing you

2237
02:26:22,500 --> 02:26:25,700
like make it clear.
Like, this is not about whether

2238
02:26:25,700 --> 02:26:29,300
you are a good person or a
valuable person.

2239
02:26:29,600 --> 02:26:32,100
It's just that you're doing
something not that.

2240
02:26:32,100 --> 02:26:34,400
I think could be improved,
right?

2241
02:26:34,500 --> 02:26:37,000
And I know you have, I know that
you want to do good.

2242
02:26:37,000 --> 02:26:39,400
And so I have an idea for you,
right?

2243
02:26:39,500 --> 02:26:42,400
And and same thing, if you're
receiving it, whether they say

2244
02:26:42,400 --> 02:26:47,300
it or not just like
internalized, like Do want I

2245
02:26:47,300 --> 02:26:49,200
have good intent.
I want to do better.

2246
02:26:49,200 --> 02:26:52,600
I want to do good and so I'll
take this as a critique of my

2247
02:26:52,600 --> 02:26:55,900
actions but not my intent
because my intent even though I

2248
02:26:56,600 --> 02:27:00,200
fell short or was lazy or
whatever, like I do want to do

2249
02:27:00,200 --> 02:27:06,400
good and so I think yeah.
Like the intent is is key and

2250
02:27:07,900 --> 02:27:12,100
You know, and I'm so grateful
that that we will be judged on

2251
02:27:12,100 --> 02:27:14,600
that.
Like, God says, you know, I look

2252
02:27:14,600 --> 02:27:17,800
on the man, man.
Looks on the outward appearance,

2253
02:27:17,800 --> 02:27:27,700
but I look on the heart, right?
And so so I feel pretty II feel

2254
02:27:27,700 --> 02:27:30,400
confident in that, you know,
like I'm gives them some hope,

2255
02:27:30,400 --> 02:27:32,700
right?
I am hopeful about that like I

2256
02:27:32,700 --> 02:27:35,300
know, I know there's lots of
scriptures that talk about the

2257
02:27:35,300 --> 02:27:39,700
horrible experience that
judgment will be and I have no

2258
02:27:39,700 --> 02:27:42,500
doubt that it will be a little
uncomfortable sometimes or maybe

2259
02:27:42,500 --> 02:27:46,600
a lot uncomfortable, but but I
still have faith that God is

2260
02:27:46,600 --> 02:27:53,500
merciful and that I'm in.
Good hands as well say, right?

2261
02:27:53,500 --> 02:27:57,400
Yeah, no, I agree:.
I've often The judgment is

2262
02:27:57,400 --> 02:28:01,600
sitting there and him stopping a
pit and pause on a video going.

2263
02:28:01,700 --> 02:28:04,000
What were you thinking there?
I mean, what was your, what were

2264
02:28:04,000 --> 02:28:06,400
you trying to get done right
there, right?

2265
02:28:06,400 --> 02:28:09,000
And and hash, and some of those
out.

2266
02:28:09,200 --> 02:28:15,700
Yeah.
So sometimes I remember thinking

2267
02:28:15,700 --> 02:28:20,600
this as a, when I was a child or
young, men, young adult, I

2268
02:28:20,608 --> 02:28:28,200
guess, like thinking like, gosh,
like the Commandments are ER, So

2269
02:28:28,200 --> 02:28:33,100
much to do.
Okay, I can sin and so many

2270
02:28:33,100 --> 02:28:37,500
different ways, you know, but I
didn't really, I didn't really

2271
02:28:37,500 --> 02:28:43,000
have a concept of the law.
And so we're going to read.

2272
02:28:43,100 --> 02:28:47,500
This is what this what John
says, First John 3 verse 4

2273
02:28:49,100 --> 02:28:53,200
Whoever committeth sin is the
King James, whoever commits, a

2274
02:28:53,208 --> 02:28:57,600
sin transgresseth.
Also, the law for sin is the

2275
02:28:57,600 --> 02:29:02,300
transgression of the law.
Okay, in the American Standard

2276
02:29:02,300 --> 02:29:05,700
Version says everyone that doeth
Sindhu with also lawlessness for

2277
02:29:05,700 --> 02:29:13,000
sin is lawlessness.
So so it really is tied to what

2278
02:29:13,000 --> 02:29:18,600
do the scriptures say and and
and not more or less either.

2279
02:29:19,000 --> 02:29:23,400
Right is not a sin to bring
brown bread to the second.

2280
02:29:24,600 --> 02:29:27,500
The scripture doesn't say one
way or the other, it's fine.

2281
02:29:27,500 --> 02:29:30,200
If you do bring white bread, if
you have a preference for that

2282
02:29:30,200 --> 02:29:32,600
or maybe you have a preference
for brown bread, like I know

2283
02:29:32,600 --> 02:29:36,100
people do like, no, this is
healthy and white breads and

2284
02:29:36,100 --> 02:29:38,700
Abomination, like it doesn't say
that.

2285
02:29:38,800 --> 02:29:42,900
There.
Yeah, and so so so once you

2286
02:29:42,900 --> 02:29:50,100
realize that I think that as a
as a you know, as an axiom or as

2287
02:29:50,100 --> 02:29:52,800
a foundational principle this
goes to the founding of our

2288
02:29:52,800 --> 02:29:56,900
nation to we want the law to be
immutable.

2289
02:29:56,900 --> 02:30:00,300
We want the law to be written
down, right?

2290
02:30:00,700 --> 02:30:05,700
We don't want the law to be by
decree of the guy on top.

2291
02:30:06,100 --> 02:30:10,500
And he can say he can Change
things make things that were

2292
02:30:10,800 --> 02:30:14,100
righteous once now, Wicked
change the plan this way and

2293
02:30:14,100 --> 02:30:18,500
that way, add or subtract things
that contradict with previous

2294
02:30:18,500 --> 02:30:22,300
things, we don't want that for
our government and we shouldn't

2295
02:30:22,300 --> 02:30:24,200
want that for our religion
either.

2296
02:30:27,600 --> 02:30:31,000
So, going back to the divine
right of kings.

2297
02:30:31,000 --> 02:30:33,600
Did, you know, like this is in
Deuteronomy again, Deuteronomy

2298
02:30:33,600 --> 02:30:38,500
17, actually going to read this
Deuteronomy 17 18, through 20,

2299
02:30:38,500 --> 02:30:40,600
this What the Israelites had a
king.

2300
02:30:40,600 --> 02:30:42,800
This is what the King was
supposed to do.

2301
02:30:42,800 --> 02:30:49,800
When he takes Throne of his
kingdom, he is to write for

2302
02:30:49,800 --> 02:30:52,400
himself.
On a scroll, a copy of this law

2303
02:30:52,400 --> 02:30:55,300
taken from that of the
levitical.

2304
02:30:55,300 --> 02:30:58,300
Priests, it is to be with him
and he used to read it all the

2305
02:30:58,300 --> 02:31:00,700
days of his life.
So that he may learn to Revere

2306
02:31:00,700 --> 02:31:02,900
the Lord, his God and follow
carefully.

2307
02:31:02,900 --> 02:31:06,300
All the words of this law and
these decrees and not to

2308
02:31:06,300 --> 02:31:08,200
consider himself better than his
fellow.

2309
02:31:08,700 --> 02:31:11,800
Lights and turn from the law to
the right or to the left.

2310
02:31:12,100 --> 02:31:15,300
Then he and his descendants Will
Rain a long time over his

2311
02:31:15,300 --> 02:31:19,200
kingdom in Israel.
Wow, I don't you wish that we

2312
02:31:19,200 --> 02:31:23,100
said you're an elected leader.
You must write a, we're in a

2313
02:31:23,108 --> 02:31:26,500
watch here, you will write copy
word for word of the

2314
02:31:26,508 --> 02:31:29,100
Constitution and you will keep
that with you.

2315
02:31:29,100 --> 02:31:33,600
So that you and we all know that
you read it and you wrote it and

2316
02:31:33,600 --> 02:31:35,700
we're going to hold you to that.
So you don't think you're better

2317
02:31:35,700 --> 02:31:38,700
than us and that you can just do
whatever you want but you

2318
02:31:38,700 --> 02:31:40,600
realize this is the law and I'm
going to.

2319
02:31:41,300 --> 02:31:47,800
Yeah, yeah that's like Gary
wish, I wish essential political

2320
02:31:47,800 --> 02:31:49,200
talk.
I mean, yeah.

2321
02:31:49,200 --> 02:31:52,400
If you could get somebody to do
that, yeah, that would solve so

2322
02:31:52,400 --> 02:31:54,900
many of the problems.
So we want, we want the law to

2323
02:31:54,900 --> 02:32:07,700
be written and not to change.
So, now, having said that there

2324
02:32:07,700 --> 02:32:09,900
is, there's more than one way to
interpret the law.

2325
02:32:10,800 --> 02:32:15,700
So, sometimes I'll talk with
things about the Old Testament,

2326
02:32:15,700 --> 02:32:20,600
and the law, and the feasts.
And, and I mean, the whole law.

2327
02:32:20,600 --> 02:32:26,100
The whole thing laws about
slavery and marriage and about

2328
02:32:26,100 --> 02:32:31,400
purity and about kosher eating,
and all those things we can look

2329
02:32:31,400 --> 02:32:37,200
at those things with different
eyes, and I like to say a Greek

2330
02:32:37,200 --> 02:32:43,000
eyes versus Hebrew eyes, right?
Okay, So, now, the same thing

2331
02:32:43,000 --> 02:32:47,200
happens with our constitution to
because you got a literal most

2332
02:32:47,200 --> 02:32:49,100
and then you have an
interpretation.

2333
02:32:49,100 --> 02:32:51,300
That's right.
So, there's a whole bunch of

2334
02:32:52,200 --> 02:32:56,400
what are called like modes of
constitutional interpretation,

2335
02:32:56,600 --> 02:32:59,900
right?
And and there's a bunch of

2336
02:32:59,908 --> 02:33:02,400
different ones, but I just want
to highlight kind of these two

2337
02:33:03,100 --> 02:33:09,600
two opposite ends.
One is the original is mmm.

2338
02:33:10,500 --> 02:33:17,100
Okay, originalism is right is
based is a search that all the

2339
02:33:17,100 --> 02:33:20,600
statements in the Constitution
must be interpreted and our best

2340
02:33:20,600 --> 02:33:24,000
interpreted based on the
original understanding at the

2341
02:33:24,000 --> 02:33:27,200
time it was adopted right in
other words originalist want to

2342
02:33:27,200 --> 02:33:30,600
know.
What the founding fathers and

2343
02:33:30,600 --> 02:33:33,800
other colonists were thinking,
we want to know how they use.

2344
02:33:33,800 --> 02:33:37,200
And defined words what they
thought about government and the

2345
02:33:37,200 --> 02:33:40,700
law and the issues, and the
problems that they were facing

2346
02:33:40,800 --> 02:33:42,700
in their day.
That led them to include

2347
02:33:42,700 --> 02:33:46,900
particular word, okay?
And then on the other end, we

2348
02:33:46,900 --> 02:33:57,400
have well, one other thing is
that this View Implicitly

2349
02:33:57,900 --> 02:34:02,200
believes that the constitution
is stable, in other words, it

2350
02:34:02,300 --> 02:34:05,500
its meaning doesn't change.
And that if you want to change

2351
02:34:05,500 --> 02:34:09,200
the Constitution or its meaning,
the only way to do that is

2352
02:34:09,200 --> 02:34:10,900
according to Article Five,
right?

2353
02:34:12,200 --> 02:34:14,800
Okay.
But then we have the concept of

2354
02:34:14,800 --> 02:34:17,700
the living Constitution which
says that the constitution

2355
02:34:17,700 --> 02:34:22,000
should be interpreted based on
the context of current times and

2356
02:34:22,200 --> 02:34:27,600
current political ideas and
ideologies and And usage of and

2357
02:34:27,600 --> 02:34:32,700
definitions of words and modern
views on the purpose of laws and

2358
02:34:32,700 --> 02:34:35,900
the scope and power of
governments, all those things.

2359
02:34:35,900 --> 02:34:39,400
And if you take these views,
you're going to end up with very

2360
02:34:39,400 --> 02:34:45,800
different ideas, right?
So applying that to religious

2361
02:34:45,800 --> 02:34:48,800
ideas, you know, it's Greek
versus Hebrew eyes.

2362
02:34:49,600 --> 02:34:53,100
Well, how do you interpret the
the text.

2363
02:34:53,500 --> 02:34:56,100
So here's a little, a little
exercise.

2364
02:34:56,200 --> 02:34:57,700
Sighs.
Okay, I'm going to ask you for

2365
02:34:57,700 --> 02:35:02,200
your responses and you can tell
me either like these, when you

2366
02:35:02,200 --> 02:35:06,500
tell me what looks like the
common, some of the like short,

2367
02:35:06,500 --> 02:35:10,200
descriptors maybe of what,
people think of the law of

2368
02:35:10,200 --> 02:35:16,700
Moses, like Christians or
Mormons like Okay, I think that,

2369
02:35:16,700 --> 02:35:20,200
that most Christians and
Mormons, look at the law of

2370
02:35:20,200 --> 02:35:26,400
Moses, as the task, the task,
master that pointed us towards

2371
02:35:26,400 --> 02:35:31,700
Christ, okay, Taskmaster?
I mean, I've heard people say it

2372
02:35:31,700 --> 02:35:33,400
was harsh.
Mmm.

2373
02:35:33,800 --> 02:35:39,300
Okay.
A burden Preparatory in some

2374
02:35:39,300 --> 02:35:45,400
ways?
Yes complex Impossible to keep.

2375
02:35:47,900 --> 02:35:52,500
I have even heard some people
say it was it was wicked like

2376
02:35:52,500 --> 02:35:56,900
that it was like or it was a
curse which it is a stretch.

2377
02:35:56,900 --> 02:36:01,900
That's not that's not the usual
sir but but it is common to hear

2378
02:36:01,900 --> 02:36:03,900
people say it was a curse.
Yeah.

2379
02:36:04,400 --> 02:36:06,500
No those laws were given to them
as a curse.

2380
02:36:06,600 --> 02:36:12,400
Yeah, it was a burdensome curse.
So that's like that's with our

2381
02:36:12,500 --> 02:36:15,800
that is with our Greek and Roman
eyes.

2382
02:36:16,700 --> 02:36:20,600
But if you want to know what the
Hebrews, what the Hebrew as the

2383
02:36:20,600 --> 02:36:24,800
Israelite eyes looked at how
they looked at the law in, read

2384
02:36:24,800 --> 02:36:31,400
in the Psalms, this is Psalm 19.
Starting at verse 7, the law

2385
02:36:31,500 --> 02:36:38,600
will only back up to the law,
the law, and the Commandments.

2386
02:36:38,600 --> 02:36:42,500
Sometimes those are synonymous
and the Commandments, the

2387
02:36:42,700 --> 02:36:46,200
scriptures you've noticed.
Sometimes I talk about the It's

2388
02:36:46,200 --> 02:36:49,900
the statutes, the testimonies
the Commandments those judgments

2389
02:36:49,900 --> 02:36:52,600
statutes and testimonies are
like different kinds of

2390
02:36:52,600 --> 02:36:56,000
Commandments, okay?
The testimonies are the

2391
02:36:56,000 --> 02:37:00,600
remembrances like Independence
Day or like in the Hebrew is

2392
02:37:00,600 --> 02:37:04,600
Passover, like we memorializing
something or the Sabbath were

2393
02:37:04,600 --> 02:37:06,900
memorializing this seventh day
of creation.

2394
02:37:07,100 --> 02:37:12,600
Those are the testimonies
statutes are Things that don't

2395
02:37:12,600 --> 02:37:17,100
necessarily make sense, okay?
Like don't eat pigs like, why

2396
02:37:17,100 --> 02:37:18,600
not?
They're delicious, right?

2397
02:37:18,600 --> 02:37:21,600
Okay.
And then judgments are things

2398
02:37:21,600 --> 02:37:24,100
that are basically universally
understood.

2399
02:37:24,200 --> 02:37:26,900
Don't murder don't steal like,
okay, okay, so just so, you

2400
02:37:26,900 --> 02:37:28,900
know, so these are all parts of
the law.

2401
02:37:29,100 --> 02:37:33,500
So this is Psalm 19.
The law of the Lord is perfect

2402
02:37:33,500 --> 02:37:36,600
restoring the soul.
The testimony of the Lord is

2403
02:37:36,600 --> 02:37:40,200
sure making wise, the simple.
The statutes of the Lord are

2404
02:37:40,200 --> 02:37:42,900
right, rejoicing, the heart.
The Commandment of the Lord is

2405
02:37:42,900 --> 02:37:46,100
pure enlightening, the eyes, the
fear of the Lord is clean

2406
02:37:46,100 --> 02:37:48,800
enduring forever.
The judgments of the Lord are

2407
02:37:48,800 --> 02:37:52,500
true and righteous altogether.
More to be desired.

2408
02:37:52,500 --> 02:37:56,000
Are they than gold?
Yea than much, fine.

2409
02:37:56,000 --> 02:37:59,100
Gold sweeter also than honey and
the honeycomb.

2410
02:38:00,300 --> 02:38:05,500
Bowser, that's when the Heap
with you, look at what they

2411
02:38:05,500 --> 02:38:09,700
consider the law to be.
It was more to be desired than

2412
02:38:09,700 --> 02:38:12,100
gold.
Yea than much fine, gold sweeter

2413
02:38:12,100 --> 02:38:15,200
than honey.
Good and righteous altogether.

2414
02:38:15,200 --> 02:38:17,600
Making wise, the simple
restoring the soul.

2415
02:38:17,600 --> 02:38:21,200
All these things.
There's nothing in there about

2416
02:38:21,200 --> 02:38:24,700
how accursed and burdensome and
temporary.

2417
02:38:25,300 --> 02:38:29,500
And and you know, all the things
that we looking back on it with

2418
02:38:29,500 --> 02:38:31,900
Cristiano.
As would describe the law as

2419
02:38:32,500 --> 02:38:34,200
well.
Let me ask you a question here

2420
02:38:35,200 --> 02:38:44,500
because We can to practice
religion within a framework of

2421
02:38:44,500 --> 02:38:47,700
pre-existing laws and conditions
that set forth in the United

2422
02:38:47,700 --> 02:38:54,700
States Constitution.
Israel practiced their religion

2423
02:38:55,500 --> 02:38:59,300
within the confines.
Shouldn't even say the confines

2424
02:38:59,300 --> 02:39:03,100
within the structure of a very
integrated.

2425
02:39:05,600 --> 02:39:08,600
Political structure.
Right?

2426
02:39:08,600 --> 02:39:10,800
A theocracy a theocracy.
Yeah, right.

2427
02:39:11,100 --> 02:39:16,200
So if we look at sometimes
sometimes, yes, sometimes you're

2428
02:39:16,200 --> 02:39:18,600
correct.
That's how it was meant to be.

2429
02:39:19,400 --> 02:39:24,100
So as you read that out of
Psalms that you just did, I

2430
02:39:24,100 --> 02:39:28,200
think we'll, of course, that
would be sweet to them because

2431
02:39:28,500 --> 02:39:34,900
they are forging a new or
attempting to Perpetual

2432
02:39:35,700 --> 02:39:37,400
Perpetual eyes if that's even a
word.

2433
02:39:38,200 --> 02:39:44,200
They're this system that comes
from utter chaos, right?

2434
02:39:44,200 --> 02:39:47,000
Because you have to remember
this law Springs forth.

2435
02:39:47,300 --> 02:39:52,000
A lot of it in a time when
Israel is plucked out of Egypt.

2436
02:39:52,100 --> 02:39:54,900
Yeah.
And then thrown into the chaos

2437
02:39:54,900 --> 02:39:56,300
of the Wilderness.
Yeah.

2438
02:39:56,400 --> 02:40:01,500
And then into the chaos of War
at Jericho Jericho, I believe.

2439
02:40:01,600 --> 02:40:03,800
Yeah.
And even before that and then

2440
02:40:03,800 --> 02:40:08,100
now they have to bring all of
this chaos and To order.

2441
02:40:09,100 --> 02:40:15,700
So, I think for most Mormons and
most Christians There's a bit of

2442
02:40:15,700 --> 02:40:19,800
a disconnect there because we
tend to look at religion as

2443
02:40:19,800 --> 02:40:23,500
being able to operate within
this very secular framework.

2444
02:40:23,500 --> 02:40:25,600
That is the United States
Constitution, right?

2445
02:40:25,600 --> 02:40:28,100
The founders were very
deliberate and how they framed

2446
02:40:28,300 --> 02:40:34,200
the word god.
Versus this this Hebrew outlook

2447
02:40:34,200 --> 02:40:40,200
on it, which is the law, and the
Lord are very much intertwined.

2448
02:40:40,300 --> 02:40:45,100
Yeah, it's very nationalistic.
So my question is, is that as

2449
02:40:45,100 --> 02:40:48,900
Mormons And especially
fundamentalist Mormons.

2450
02:40:49,200 --> 02:40:52,600
Do we need to start thinking
about keeping these things?

2451
02:40:52,600 --> 02:40:56,100
Is almost a type of
counterculture and a peaceful

2452
02:40:56,100 --> 02:40:57,300
one.
Yes, absolutely.

2453
02:40:57,300 --> 02:40:59,500
Right.
A peaceful one, one that can

2454
02:40:59,800 --> 02:41:02,200
co-exist and harmonize but it
counterculture.

2455
02:41:02,200 --> 02:41:04,700
Nonetheless.
You have any thoughts on that?

2456
02:41:04,700 --> 02:41:10,800
Yeah, I think it's well I
mentioned Israel did not always

2457
02:41:10,800 --> 02:41:13,900
do they.
They were you in the history of

2458
02:41:13,908 --> 02:41:17,700
the Bible they were very seldom
Sovereign actually right.

2459
02:41:17,700 --> 02:41:21,300
They were for a little while and
then you know and then they were

2460
02:41:21,300 --> 02:41:24,100
in Babylon and then they came
back for a little bit but

2461
02:41:24,100 --> 02:41:28,200
they're really you know, a
vassal state to Persia and then

2462
02:41:28,600 --> 02:41:31,800
and then the Greeks took them
over and then the Romans and

2463
02:41:31,800 --> 02:41:37,000
then they were scattered, right?
And so there's not very much

2464
02:41:37,000 --> 02:41:40,400
time when they're actually.
Independent.

2465
02:41:40,500 --> 02:41:43,400
They were there were, you know,
bits and pieces.

2466
02:41:43,400 --> 02:41:50,300
There Even during even during
Jesus day, right under the Roman

2467
02:41:50,300 --> 02:41:53,700
very end, they were under the
thumb of the Romans and still,

2468
02:41:54,000 --> 02:41:58,800
and still Jesus.
Encouraged everyone to keep

2469
02:41:58,800 --> 02:42:06,600
along and encourage
righteousness, but also But he

2470
02:42:06,800 --> 02:42:09,100
had a lot to say about the
traditions of the elders.

2471
02:42:09,100 --> 02:42:11,300
Like I said, maybe we'll get to
that some more.

2472
02:42:11,700 --> 02:42:17,700
So I do think it's important to
keep as many of The Commandments

2473
02:42:17,700 --> 02:42:22,300
as possible, Right?
Even in Jesus day, they could

2474
02:42:22,300 --> 02:42:26,200
not keep all the Commandments.
They just couldn't because the

2475
02:42:26,200 --> 02:42:29,600
Romans wouldn't allow them right
to have their own courts and

2476
02:42:29,600 --> 02:42:32,300
stuff.
For example, and the same is the

2477
02:42:32,300 --> 02:42:35,100
same is true for us, like you
read the scriptures.

2478
02:42:35,100 --> 02:42:39,100
The Dates are supposed to have
their own courts and councils

2479
02:42:39,300 --> 02:42:44,100
for everything, not just
religious things, but for civil

2480
02:42:44,100 --> 02:42:47,700
matters to that is the ideal as
you mentioned, but we can't.

2481
02:42:48,200 --> 02:42:53,000
That's okay, that, that
shouldn't, that shouldn't stop

2482
02:42:53,000 --> 02:42:57,000
us from doing everything that we
can and God will.

2483
02:42:57,300 --> 02:42:58,900
And God will take that into
account.

2484
02:42:58,900 --> 02:43:05,200
Like, he knows knows the
circumstances and One thing I

2485
02:43:05,208 --> 02:43:09,500
like to, I mean, I point out
sometimes even in, even in Jesus

2486
02:43:09,500 --> 02:43:13,700
day, even the priests couldn't
keep everything, they had their

2487
02:43:13,700 --> 02:43:16,800
Temple, but they couldn't even
keep all the Commandments then,

2488
02:43:16,800 --> 02:43:21,100
because when they were taken
captive into Babylon, Jeremiah

2489
02:43:21,200 --> 02:43:23,100
took the Ark of the Covenant and
hit it.

2490
02:43:24,400 --> 02:43:28,200
And so when the temple was
rebuilt, holy of holies was

2491
02:43:28,200 --> 02:43:31,600
empty, but the high priest
supposed to go in there and

2492
02:43:31,600 --> 02:43:35,000
sprinkle Blood on the Ark of the
Covenant or in front of the Ark

2493
02:43:35,000 --> 02:43:37,900
of the Covenant on the day of
atonement, and he could not do

2494
02:43:37,900 --> 02:43:40,100
that.
So, they just go in and they

2495
02:43:40,100 --> 02:43:43,500
sprinkle it, you know, on the
ground near, you know, where

2496
02:43:43,800 --> 02:43:46,300
brother would have been and
that's the best that you can do,

2497
02:43:46,300 --> 02:43:50,700
and that's okay.
So, even in Jesus day, they

2498
02:43:50,700 --> 02:43:53,300
couldn't keep all the
Commandments, and that's, that's

2499
02:43:53,300 --> 02:43:53,700
fine.
Fine.

2500
02:43:53,900 --> 02:43:56,000
Okay, no I mix.
That makes perfect sense.

2501
02:43:56,300 --> 02:44:02,700
But yeah, I do think that I do
think there needs to be a A.

2502
02:44:05,900 --> 02:44:11,000
Almost I would say nationalistic
Revival of that.

2503
02:44:11,000 --> 02:44:16,500
We are like ancient Israel.
Like we are still and we are

2504
02:44:16,500 --> 02:44:20,100
still in nation even though
we're part of Rome, we are

2505
02:44:20,100 --> 02:44:24,700
Israelites still and and we have
our own unique customs and we're

2506
02:44:24,700 --> 02:44:29,800
going to keep them as best we
can within this framework of

2507
02:44:29,800 --> 02:44:34,400
society that we are in.
And I think the Constitution of

2508
02:44:34,400 --> 02:44:37,700
the United States is beautiful
because it it kind of allows

2509
02:44:37,700 --> 02:44:40,900
allows for that, right?
And allows other people to have

2510
02:44:40,900 --> 02:44:44,200
their communities to and we can
have, we can be allies but not

2511
02:44:44,500 --> 02:44:47,600
have to be, I have freedom
still?

2512
02:44:47,900 --> 02:44:55,400
Yeah, yeah.
So So there's more than one way

2513
02:44:55,400 --> 02:45:09,500
to interpret things. so, let's
see, I do want to say Let's see.

2514
02:45:10,300 --> 02:45:13,000
I need to do another another eye
exam, I guess.

2515
02:45:13,000 --> 02:45:16,900
Okay, Greek forces Hebrew.
Okay, okay, so I asked people to

2516
02:45:16,900 --> 02:45:21,100
sometimes to is, you know,
before before the atonement was

2517
02:45:21,100 --> 02:45:26,700
accomplished.
People living back in King

2518
02:45:26,700 --> 02:45:29,700
Solomon's day Elijah's day
Malachi with her.

2519
02:45:30,500 --> 02:45:35,400
How would they forgiven of sins?
How did they obtain forgiveness

2520
02:45:35,400 --> 02:45:37,600
of their sins through animal
sacrifice?

2521
02:45:38,700 --> 02:45:39,400
Yeah.
Right.

2522
02:45:39,400 --> 02:45:44,900
That's that's the usual answer
and so but then if that were the

2523
02:45:44,900 --> 02:45:48,300
case, then what need was there
for the atonement?

2524
02:45:49,800 --> 02:45:53,000
if you could actually be
forgiven by sacrificing an

2525
02:45:53,000 --> 02:46:00,500
animal, And the answer is the
answer that I would say to that.

2526
02:46:00,500 --> 02:46:05,900
Is that that is that is a gross.
Misunderstanding of what

2527
02:46:05,900 --> 02:46:12,300
sacrifices for sacrifice never
was meant to be like a competing

2528
02:46:12,400 --> 02:46:15,800
method of Salvation with the
atonement.

2529
02:46:18,700 --> 02:46:25,700
And in Hebrews, the Apostle Paul
says those blood of goats and

2530
02:46:25,700 --> 02:46:28,500
sheep back never forgave
anyone's in.

2531
02:46:28,700 --> 02:46:34,100
And it is a little unfortunate
that in English.

2532
02:46:34,600 --> 02:46:37,400
There is, I mean, it says,
sacrifice for sins, this sin

2533
02:46:37,400 --> 02:46:41,300
offerings, right.
But it's a, the word is they

2534
02:46:41,300 --> 02:46:43,300
don't have the Hebrew word, but
I know that's better.

2535
02:46:43,300 --> 02:46:45,600
Interpreted purification
offering.

2536
02:46:47,100 --> 02:46:49,500
Not.
So it's because sometimes you

2537
02:46:49,500 --> 02:46:53,100
would do sin offerings for
things that weren't sins.

2538
02:46:53,400 --> 02:46:55,300
Like, if you touch the dead body
here, right?

2539
02:46:55,300 --> 02:46:58,400
You're burying your father or
something, but you would you

2540
02:46:58,400 --> 02:47:02,300
accumulate this ritual impurity,
that would make it so that you

2541
02:47:02,300 --> 02:47:08,900
can't go to the temple and, you
know, participate until you, you

2542
02:47:08,900 --> 02:47:11,800
know, wash your clothes and wash
yourself and clean yourself up,

2543
02:47:12,000 --> 02:47:13,700
and then you would be
considered.

2544
02:47:13,900 --> 02:47:16,900
And then sometimes, sometimes
you would offer This sin

2545
02:47:16,900 --> 02:47:19,300
offering but it was just really
a purification offering, okay?

2546
02:47:19,400 --> 02:47:24,400
And then you are right with God
and can be participate and be in

2547
02:47:24,400 --> 02:47:31,900
his presence symbolically.
So so know like people who live

2548
02:47:31,900 --> 02:47:38,500
before Jesus, all their sins
that their sins were by faith in

2549
02:47:39,200 --> 02:47:43,400
by faith on the sacrifice of
Messiah, right?

2550
02:47:43,500 --> 02:47:47,300
Every bit as much as you know,
it It's like saying to us.

2551
02:47:47,300 --> 02:47:52,600
Now does does partaking of the,
the bread and wine or water for

2552
02:47:52,600 --> 02:47:54,400
the sacrament.
Does that forgive your sins?

2553
02:47:55,100 --> 02:47:56,600
Now, of course, we understand
that.

2554
02:47:56,600 --> 02:48:00,400
No, no, no.
But that is a reminder of that's

2555
02:48:00,400 --> 02:48:04,000
to point us towards the
sacrifice of the same, right?

2556
02:48:04,000 --> 02:48:07,800
And it's the same for them to
and actually in in a certain

2557
02:48:07,800 --> 02:48:15,400
sense of speaking, the atonement
happened before Anyone was on

2558
02:48:15,400 --> 02:48:18,000
the earth.
Sure the scriptures in more than

2559
02:48:18,000 --> 02:48:21,100
one place.
Say he was the lamb slain from

2560
02:48:21,100 --> 02:48:23,100
before the foundations of the
world.

2561
02:48:23,500 --> 02:48:27,700
So the tommen happened in God's
timing.

2562
02:48:28,000 --> 02:48:30,500
Wow.
Before everyone, right?

2563
02:48:30,600 --> 02:48:32,400
And everyone relies on the same
thing.

2564
02:48:32,600 --> 02:48:36,400
So, so Joseph Smith talks about
this too.

2565
02:48:36,400 --> 02:48:39,700
He says, you know, so this is,
this is again Hebrew worth

2566
02:48:39,700 --> 02:48:44,300
versus Creek, guys here, right?
Hebrew Hebrew.

2567
02:48:45,400 --> 02:48:50,000
The Hebrew concept of God is
unchanging his plan.

2568
02:48:50,700 --> 02:48:54,000
And the way that we interact
with him has never changed and

2569
02:48:54,000 --> 02:48:57,900
never will change, because he's
smart enough to lay it down,

2570
02:48:57,900 --> 02:49:00,100
right the first time.
Yep.

2571
02:49:00,300 --> 02:49:03,800
Humans we make laws and we
change them and we add to them

2572
02:49:03,800 --> 02:49:05,600
because we don't know what we're
doing, but we're just

2573
02:49:05,600 --> 02:49:06,900
experiment.
We are.

2574
02:49:06,900 --> 02:49:12,000
Yeah, but God is smart enough
that he gets it right the first

2575
02:49:12,000 --> 02:49:14,300
time and just sticks with that,
okay?

2576
02:49:14,700 --> 02:49:20,000
But, you know, Jesus killed
Jews.

2577
02:49:20,000 --> 02:49:26,400
Are scattered Christianity
starts to spread among all these

2578
02:49:26,400 --> 02:49:32,800
former pagans right Greeks and
Romans, and who knows what else,

2579
02:49:33,200 --> 02:49:37,100
and what do, what did Greeks
think about their God, their

2580
02:49:37,100 --> 02:49:40,300
gods?
They think, are their gods

2581
02:49:40,300 --> 02:49:43,000
constant know?
Their, their gods are kind of

2582
02:49:43,000 --> 02:49:47,200
chaotic, their gods are It has
changed their mind all the time.

2583
02:49:47,900 --> 02:49:51,500
Their gods say, one thing one
day and another the next day

2584
02:49:51,700 --> 02:49:56,400
they are entirely fickle and in
constant and you have all these

2585
02:49:56,400 --> 02:50:00,800
all these pagans who are now
Christians and they have no

2586
02:50:00,800 --> 02:50:07,200
problem with believing that God
used to say, you know, when Adam

2587
02:50:07,200 --> 02:50:10,700
and Eve came out of the garden
that there was sacrifice and,

2588
02:50:10,700 --> 02:50:13,700
and the gospel, you know, the
New Testament talks about the

2589
02:50:13,708 --> 02:50:19,000
gospel being He preached to
Abraham and stuff, but then, you

2590
02:50:19,000 --> 02:50:22,800
know, Abraham comes along and
there's circumcision is added to

2591
02:50:22,808 --> 02:50:25,100
that.
And then Moses comes along and

2592
02:50:25,100 --> 02:50:28,000
like all the gospel stuff is
gone away and we replace it with

2593
02:50:28,000 --> 02:50:33,300
this all these, you know, all
this my new shh of the law of

2594
02:50:33,300 --> 02:50:35,600
Moses.
And then Jesus comes along and

2595
02:50:35,600 --> 02:50:39,600
does away with all of that and
also the circumcision stuff with

2596
02:50:39,600 --> 02:50:44,100
Abraham but then someday there
will be sacrifice.

2597
02:50:44,500 --> 02:50:46,800
Because the Old Testament talks
about that and and Joseph Smith

2598
02:50:46,800 --> 02:50:49,300
talks about that with the gospel
stuff.

2599
02:50:49,600 --> 02:50:53,800
And like we don't have any
problems swallowing that because

2600
02:50:53,800 --> 02:50:57,300
we just have this we looking at
everything with Greek eyes that

2601
02:50:57,300 --> 02:51:00,600
and we're not pagans, no.
But we've interpret, we have

2602
02:51:00,600 --> 02:51:04,000
inherited these ideas from our
ancestors.

2603
02:51:04,000 --> 02:51:07,300
That God does change his mind.
Sometimes and comes up with a

2604
02:51:07,308 --> 02:51:09,200
new plan.
It used to be by animal

2605
02:51:09,200 --> 02:51:11,100
sacrifice, but now it's by
Jesus.

2606
02:51:11,700 --> 02:51:14,100
And like, those people were
saved in a different way than we

2607
02:51:14,100 --> 02:51:15,600
are.
Saved, right?

2608
02:51:15,700 --> 02:51:22,100
And so I'm actually going to see
the problem with cultural

2609
02:51:22,100 --> 02:51:24,500
heritage so to speak.
Yeah, exactly.

2610
02:51:25,600 --> 02:51:27,400
So this is, this is Joseph
Smith.

2611
02:51:30,800 --> 02:51:35,200
This is a Teaching of Prophet,
Joseph Smith, patient 59.

2612
02:51:36,600 --> 02:51:41,200
Now he in this quote, he's
talking about the gospel, what

2613
02:51:41,200 --> 02:51:45,100
we consider the gospel being
around in ancient times before

2614
02:51:45,100 --> 02:51:46,300
Jesus.
Okay.

2615
02:51:46,900 --> 02:51:52,500
So it's a little different than
saying that the law of God given

2616
02:51:52,500 --> 02:51:56,100
through Moses has applicable
today, but get the idea.

2617
02:51:56,500 --> 02:51:59,800
So, Josephus says, we all admit
that the gospel has ordinances.

2618
02:52:00,200 --> 02:52:03,500
And if so had it not always
ordinances And we're not its

2619
02:52:03,500 --> 02:52:07,300
ordinances, always the same.
Perhaps our friends will say me

2620
02:52:07,300 --> 02:52:10,600
our Christian friends that the
gospel and its ordinances were

2621
02:52:10,600 --> 02:52:13,700
not known until the days of John
the son of Zechariah.

2622
02:52:13,700 --> 02:52:15,500
Says, in the days of Herod, the
king of Judah.

2623
02:52:16,400 --> 02:52:21,200
But we will hear look at this
point for our own point.

2624
02:52:21,200 --> 02:52:24,100
We cannot believe that the
Ancients and all ages were.

2625
02:52:24,100 --> 02:52:28,000
So ignorant of the system of
Heaven, as many suppose, since

2626
02:52:28,000 --> 02:52:31,700
all that were ever saved were
saved through the power of this

2627
02:52:31,700 --> 02:52:34,000
great Plan of Redemption.
Option as much.

2628
02:52:34,000 --> 02:52:38,800
So before the coming of Christ,
as since if not God has had

2629
02:52:38,800 --> 02:52:41,500
different plans in operation.
If we may.

2630
02:52:41,500 --> 02:52:44,800
So express it to bring men back
to dwell with himself.

2631
02:52:44,800 --> 02:52:48,900
And this we cannot believe since
there has been no change in the

2632
02:52:48,908 --> 02:52:53,300
constitution of man, since he
felt like men still have the

2633
02:52:53,300 --> 02:52:56,800
same problem.
And so God's solution is still

2634
02:52:56,800 --> 02:53:02,200
the same and always has been.
I love, he says, this is

2635
02:53:02,200 --> 02:53:05,900
something that Mormons cannot
believe is that God would have a

2636
02:53:05,900 --> 02:53:10,900
different modes of Salvation at
different dispensations, right?

2637
02:53:10,900 --> 02:53:13,000
We can't we do not we do not
leave that otherwise.

2638
02:53:13,000 --> 02:53:24,100
God is partial, right?
You know, I had a, I had a talk

2639
02:53:24,100 --> 02:53:31,500
with my boss at work about this
whole covid thing and mandatory

2640
02:53:31,500 --> 02:53:36,800
injections of experimental
things that we take no

2641
02:53:36,800 --> 02:53:39,700
responsibility for.
But we're requiring you to take

2642
02:53:39,700 --> 02:53:42,200
it anyway and all of the, the
crazy.

2643
02:53:45,400 --> 02:53:52,500
Crazy and frankly illegal things
that were done or attempted and

2644
02:53:52,800 --> 02:53:58,000
you know he his argument to me
was because he's kind of in

2645
02:53:58,000 --> 02:54:02,200
favor of all that he's argument
to me was and I talked about

2646
02:54:02,200 --> 02:54:05,400
like the Constitutional issues
is his argument was well the

2647
02:54:05,400 --> 02:54:08,900
Constitution really needs to be
revised and update like it was

2648
02:54:09,200 --> 02:54:13,000
written so long ago.
Those guys didn't have any idea

2649
02:54:13,100 --> 02:54:16,600
about global pandemics.
All that which is not true.

2650
02:54:16,600 --> 02:54:18,700
Because the Black Death was
before that, you know, so they

2651
02:54:18,700 --> 02:54:21,500
had perfect idea about and they
had that extent.

2652
02:54:21,500 --> 02:54:25,200
We dealing with outbreaks of get
the cholera and call upon what

2653
02:54:25,200 --> 02:54:27,600
happened.
Like, no, that's not even true.

2654
02:54:27,600 --> 02:54:30,400
Like your premise is not even
true, but he says, you know,

2655
02:54:30,400 --> 02:54:33,400
we've just advanced in
technology so much like do you

2656
02:54:33,400 --> 02:54:37,500
think like we should and We Know
Better.

2657
02:54:37,900 --> 02:54:39,900
Yeah.
Now we know better.

2658
02:54:40,300 --> 02:54:43,500
Don't you think we should like
update the Constitution so that

2659
02:54:43,500 --> 02:54:45,000
we can force people to do these
things?

2660
02:54:45,100 --> 02:54:48,200
Things and stuff and and because
and do what's best for society,

2661
02:54:48,200 --> 02:54:54,800
you know, and I mean, my
response was the constitution is

2662
02:54:54,800 --> 02:54:59,900
not concerned with updates in
science or technology and it's

2663
02:54:59,900 --> 02:55:05,000
true that like we did not, we
have not discovered at the time,

2664
02:55:05,000 --> 02:55:07,900
the Constitution was written.
We didn't know about many of the

2665
02:55:07,900 --> 02:55:10,000
things that we take for granted
now, scientific and medical

2666
02:55:10,000 --> 02:55:15,000
discoveries, but there is one
discovery that the founding

2667
02:55:15,000 --> 02:55:17,600
fathers There's knew very well
about was discovered.

2668
02:55:17,600 --> 02:55:20,500
Before the Constitution that was
the nature of mankind, right?

2669
02:55:20,500 --> 02:55:23,300
And that has not changed.
And that is the issue that the

2670
02:55:23,300 --> 02:55:27,700
constitution is addressing not
technology and updating that it

2671
02:55:27,700 --> 02:55:33,600
is addressing the problem of man
and our desire to be tyrants

2672
02:55:33,600 --> 02:55:36,400
over our fellow man like that
has not changed.

2673
02:55:36,500 --> 02:55:38,800
And so the Constitution should
not be updated because that is

2674
02:55:38,800 --> 02:55:42,200
still the case the best
description I ever heard of the

2675
02:55:42,200 --> 02:55:44,900
Constitution was as it was a
charter of negative Liberty.

2676
02:55:45,100 --> 02:55:47,400
He's for the government.
That is exactly.

2677
02:55:47,400 --> 02:55:50,900
Right.
So it cannot be.

2678
02:55:50,900 --> 02:55:55,400
It cannot do the things that the
founders were concerned about.

2679
02:55:55,700 --> 02:55:56,600
Yeah.
Yeah.

2680
02:55:56,600 --> 02:55:59,500
You read the Bill of Rights, and
this is another.

2681
02:55:59,500 --> 02:56:02,700
This is a big is a huge
misunderstanding that people

2682
02:56:02,700 --> 02:56:06,300
have about the Constitution,
they'll say, you know, the

2683
02:56:06,308 --> 02:56:11,400
Constitution gives us the right
to vote or to have free speech,

2684
02:56:11,400 --> 02:56:15,000
or to carry arms or whatever.
It's like, no, no, no, no.

2685
02:56:15,600 --> 02:56:18,500
Or even that the Bill of Rights
does not give us those notes.

2686
02:56:18,500 --> 02:56:21,100
Those are inalienable rights
facts, right?

2687
02:56:21,200 --> 02:56:23,000
Yeah.
That is the mistake, though.

2688
02:56:23,000 --> 02:56:27,500
The Bill of Rights actually puts
limits on the government.

2689
02:56:27,600 --> 02:56:30,900
It does not grant us anything it
limits the government in all of

2690
02:56:30,900 --> 02:56:32,400
these areas.
Yep, right.

2691
02:56:32,400 --> 02:56:35,400
This shall not be infringed.
There should be no law about

2692
02:56:35,400 --> 02:56:40,100
religion you know right of free
speech all those things.

2693
02:56:41,800 --> 02:56:45,600
So anyway, so Joe's is talking.
In about.

2694
02:56:45,600 --> 02:56:49,800
So the Constitution is still
valid document because human

2695
02:56:49,800 --> 02:56:51,400
beings are the same.
Even though we have more

2696
02:56:51,400 --> 02:56:54,200
technology.
Like I was saying, we are

2697
02:56:54,200 --> 02:56:59,400
humans, still with the same
weaknesses sinful Nature's and

2698
02:57:00,000 --> 02:57:02,500
proclivities that we have always
been that makes us human.

2699
02:57:03,000 --> 02:57:04,300
Yeah.
Yep.

2700
02:57:04,300 --> 02:57:08,500
And so just says, the same is
true when it comes to our

2701
02:57:08,500 --> 02:57:12,600
Salvation and God's plan for us,
it says that the nature of the

2702
02:57:12,600 --> 02:57:21,500
same.
Some will suppose that before

2703
02:57:21,500 --> 02:57:23,900
the coming of Christ, your
things were different.

2704
02:57:24,000 --> 02:57:27,300
That God has had different plans
in operation to bring men back

2705
02:57:27,300 --> 02:57:28,800
to dwell with him.
But we cannot believe the since

2706
02:57:28,800 --> 02:57:31,100
there's been no change in the
constitution of, man since he

2707
02:57:31,100 --> 02:57:34,000
fell like, we're still, we're
still the same.

2708
02:57:34,100 --> 02:57:38,100
Yeah, we still have the stream
natural inclinations that run.

2709
02:57:38,100 --> 02:57:42,200
Contrary to the will of God.
Yeah, so sometimes when when we

2710
02:57:42,200 --> 02:57:46,200
refer to the law of Moses.
Sometimes it's kind of used in a

2711
02:57:46,200 --> 02:57:47,600
little bit of a pejorative
sense.

2712
02:57:47,600 --> 02:57:52,100
I think it's like that is Moses
law, you know really I think

2713
02:57:52,100 --> 02:57:56,400
more accurate thing is to say
the law of God revealed given to

2714
02:57:56,400 --> 02:58:01,300
Moses, write a little harder to
brush away when it's I think

2715
02:58:02,200 --> 02:58:07,300
again, probably because of our
Greek eyes, if you will, or our

2716
02:58:07,400 --> 02:58:12,300
cultural heritage or cultural
remembrance, we tend to look at

2717
02:58:12,300 --> 02:58:17,200
them into Brett fastens, right?
There's there's a dividing line

2718
02:58:17,200 --> 02:58:23,900
between Moses the law of Moses
and then the higher law that's

2719
02:58:23,900 --> 02:58:25,100
often spoke.
Yes.

2720
02:58:25,500 --> 02:58:31,100
In in Jesus.
Yes, the issue that I keep

2721
02:58:31,100 --> 02:58:36,500
coming back to you is if this is
the restoration of all things It

2722
02:58:36,500 --> 02:58:39,700
has to include Moses.
That's right.

2723
02:58:39,900 --> 02:58:47,300
We don't get to just exclude
that because We feel like we're

2724
02:58:47,300 --> 02:58:49,900
under a different Covenant, are
you reading my notes here?

2725
02:58:50,000 --> 02:58:53,000
No, no, sorry.
So, that's right.

2726
02:58:53,800 --> 02:58:58,200
We tend to think of no, no, that
doesn't apply to us anymore

2727
02:58:58,200 --> 02:59:03,200
because we have Jesus.
Yeah, right, that's right.

2728
02:59:03,200 --> 02:59:06,700
And I don't think that's the
case, right?

2729
02:59:06,700 --> 02:59:10,000
The God you have to take a
holistic view of the Gospel

2730
02:59:10,600 --> 02:59:14,100
especially if you make the claim
that this is the restoration of

2731
02:59:14,100 --> 02:59:15,400
all things.
That's right.

2732
02:59:15,600 --> 02:59:16,800
Yeah.
Amen to that.

2733
02:59:19,100 --> 02:59:23,800
So yeah, you mentioned the
restoration of all things, and

2734
02:59:23,800 --> 02:59:26,100
the law of Moses.
So I'm going to have another

2735
02:59:26,100 --> 02:59:28,800
quote here from Joseph Smith,
teachings of the Prophet Joseph

2736
02:59:28,800 --> 02:59:31,600
Smith.
This is like page 172 173.

2737
02:59:31,900 --> 02:59:38,100
This kind of long but it's good.
Actually, he starts off with

2738
02:59:38,100 --> 02:59:39,800
this.
This quote starts off with a

2739
02:59:39,800 --> 02:59:45,700
really interesting statement
about what the keys of the

2740
02:59:45,700 --> 02:59:49,900
priesthood are.
Okay, so you'll ask 10 different

2741
02:59:49,900 --> 02:59:54,000
people and get 10 different
answers but and you know there's

2742
02:59:54,000 --> 02:59:57,000
validity to all those different
answers and no doubt but Joseph

2743
02:59:57,000 --> 02:59:58,800
here boils it down to two
things.

2744
02:59:59,700 --> 03:00:02,300
I says the keys of the
priesthood consisted in

2745
03:00:02,600 --> 03:00:08,200
obtaining the voice of Jehovah.
At, and in, and in the offering

2746
03:00:08,200 --> 03:00:13,400
of sacrifice, that is the that
constitutes the keys of the

2747
03:00:13,400 --> 03:00:15,300
priesthood.
And in some sense, I'm sure you

2748
03:00:15,300 --> 03:00:17,200
could.
You can assign milk, his attic

2749
03:00:17,200 --> 03:00:25,000
and erotic, to those things.
But anyway, so I'll start here.

2750
03:00:25,300 --> 03:00:28,700
The Swede behold that the keys
of this priesthood consisted in

2751
03:00:28,700 --> 03:00:33,100
obtaining, the voice of Jehovah
that he talked with him, Noah in

2752
03:00:33,100 --> 03:00:36,100
a familiar and friendly Manner,
and that he continued to him.

2753
03:00:36,100 --> 03:00:38,300
The He's and Covenants and Power
in the glory, which he had

2754
03:00:38,300 --> 03:00:40,700
blessed Adam with, which he had
less Adam at the beginning.

2755
03:00:41,200 --> 03:00:45,300
And the offering of sacrifice,
which also shall be continued at

2756
03:00:45,300 --> 03:00:49,300
the last time.
This is a, this is in bold here

2757
03:00:49,600 --> 03:00:53,700
for all the ordinances and
duties that ever have been

2758
03:00:53,700 --> 03:00:57,300
required by the priesthood under
the directions and Commandments

2759
03:00:57,300 --> 03:01:02,000
of the almighty in any of the
dispensations shall be had in

2760
03:01:02,000 --> 03:01:06,700
the last dispensation.
Therefore all things had under

2761
03:01:06,700 --> 03:01:09,500
the authority of the priesthood
at any former period shall be

2762
03:01:09,500 --> 03:01:13,200
had again bringing to pass the
restoration spoken of by the

2763
03:01:13,200 --> 03:01:17,600
mouth of all the holy prophets.
Then shall the sons of Levi

2764
03:01:17,900 --> 03:01:21,300
offer, an acceptable offering
unto the Lord and He Shall sit

2765
03:01:21,300 --> 03:01:24,200
as a refiner and purifier of
silver and shall purify the sons

2766
03:01:24,200 --> 03:01:27,000
of Levi and purge them as gold
and silver that they may offer

2767
03:01:27,000 --> 03:01:32,600
unto the Lord quoting Malachi.
It will be necessary here to

2768
03:01:32,600 --> 03:01:35,400
make a few observations on the
doctrine set forth in the above

2769
03:01:35,400 --> 03:01:39,100
quotation, and it is generally
supposed that sacrifice was

2770
03:01:39,100 --> 03:01:42,800
entirely done away.
When the Great sacrifice, IE,

2771
03:01:42,800 --> 03:01:46,500
the sacrifice of the Lord, Jesus
was offered up and that there

2772
03:01:46,500 --> 03:01:49,700
will be no necessity for the
ordinance of sacrifice in the

2773
03:01:49,700 --> 03:01:53,200
future.
But those who assert this are

2774
03:01:53,200 --> 03:01:56,300
certainly not acquainted with
the duties privileges and

2775
03:01:56,300 --> 03:02:00,000
authority of the priesthood or
with the prophets meaning, they

2776
03:02:00,000 --> 03:02:03,200
don't understand what Prophets
have said about sacrifice.

2777
03:02:04,900 --> 03:02:07,500
Continuing says, the offering of
sacrifice has ever been

2778
03:02:07,500 --> 03:02:10,600
connected and forms a part of
the duties of the priesthood.

2779
03:02:10,600 --> 03:02:14,400
It began with the priesthood and
will be continued until after

2780
03:02:14,400 --> 03:02:18,100
the coming of Christ from
generation to generation.

2781
03:02:18,500 --> 03:02:21,800
We frequently have made mention
of the offering of Sacrifice by

2782
03:02:21,800 --> 03:02:23,400
the Servants.
Of the most high in ancient

2783
03:02:23,400 --> 03:02:27,000
days, prior to the law of Moses
which ordinances will be

2784
03:02:27,000 --> 03:02:29,800
continued when the priesthood is
restored with all its Authority,

2785
03:02:29,900 --> 03:02:35,800
power and blessings.
It is a very prevalent opinion

2786
03:02:36,000 --> 03:02:40,600
that the sacrifices which were
offered were entirely consumed.

2787
03:02:40,600 --> 03:02:45,500
This was not the case if you
read, Leviticus two versus two

2788
03:02:45,500 --> 03:02:49,700
three, you will observe that the
priest took apart as a memorial

2789
03:02:49,700 --> 03:02:51,900
and offered it up before the
Lord, while the remainder was

2790
03:02:51,900 --> 03:02:53,500
Kept For the maintenance of the
priests.

2791
03:02:53,800 --> 03:02:56,400
So that the offerings and
sacrifices are not all consumed

2792
03:02:56,400 --> 03:02:59,600
upon the altar, but the blood is
sprinkled in the fat and certain

2793
03:02:59,600 --> 03:03:03,800
other portions are consumed.
The Is sacrifices.

2794
03:03:04,300 --> 03:03:09,100
He just Joseph just mentioned
the levitical sacrifices and

2795
03:03:09,100 --> 03:03:12,100
also the patriarchal sacrifices,
you know, with no.

2796
03:03:12,100 --> 03:03:16,000
And sister says these
sacrifices, as well as every

2797
03:03:16,000 --> 03:03:19,000
ordinance belonging to the
priesthood will when the Temple

2798
03:03:19,000 --> 03:03:23,300
of the Lord shall be built, and
the sons of Levi purified be

2799
03:03:23,300 --> 03:03:26,200
fully restored and attended to
in all their powers

2800
03:03:26,200 --> 03:03:30,800
ramifications and blessings this
ever did and ever will exist.

2801
03:03:30,800 --> 03:03:32,400
When the powers of the
Melchizedek priesthood are

2802
03:03:32,500 --> 03:03:36,600
Sufficiently manifest else.
How can the restoration of all

2803
03:03:36,600 --> 03:03:39,300
things spoken of by the holy
prophets, be brought to pass.

2804
03:03:41,900 --> 03:03:44,700
It is not to be understood that
the law of Moses will be

2805
03:03:44,700 --> 03:03:47,000
established again with all its
rights and variety of

2806
03:03:47,000 --> 03:03:49,500
Ceremonies.
But this has never been spoken

2807
03:03:49,500 --> 03:03:52,300
of by the prophets but those
things which existed prior to

2808
03:03:52,300 --> 03:03:55,100
Moses's day, namely sacrifice
will be continued.

2809
03:03:55,400 --> 03:03:59,600
It may be asked by some what
necessity for sacrifice since

2810
03:03:59,600 --> 03:04:02,400
the great sacrifice was offered
in answer to it.

2811
03:04:03,100 --> 03:04:06,700
If repentance baptism and Faith
existed prior to the days of

2812
03:04:06,700 --> 03:04:10,200
Christ, what necessity for them
since that time.

2813
03:04:12,300 --> 03:04:13,600
Okay.
So there's kind of a lot to

2814
03:04:13,600 --> 03:04:18,700
unpack, but one is what you
said, spot on every single thing

2815
03:04:18,700 --> 03:04:21,000
that has ever been required of
the priesthood in any of the

2816
03:04:21,000 --> 03:04:24,600
dispensations is going to be had
in the last dispensation.

2817
03:04:25,100 --> 03:04:27,900
And I will, and I would actually
argue that everything that has

2818
03:04:27,900 --> 03:04:32,300
ever been in any, dispensation
has always been right required.

2819
03:04:32,600 --> 03:04:37,100
But but we have been prevented
from keeping them from time to

2820
03:04:37,100 --> 03:04:41,900
time for apostasy or oppression
from foreign governments or

2821
03:04:41,900 --> 03:04:45,000
whatever but that the word of
God itself, whether we're

2822
03:04:45,000 --> 03:04:48,200
keeping it or not, the word of
God stands forever, right?

2823
03:04:48,300 --> 03:04:52,800
That's what I was saying.
So there's one thing, another

2824
03:04:52,800 --> 03:04:55,300
thing is, you know, what's he
talking about?

2825
03:04:56,400 --> 03:04:59,700
If repentance faith and baptism
existed prior to the days of

2826
03:04:59,700 --> 03:05:03,700
Christ, what need for them since
he's actually So he's kind of

2827
03:05:03,700 --> 03:05:07,600
making an argument by symmetry
here.

2828
03:05:08,800 --> 03:05:11,900
That.
Well, what do, what do Faith

2829
03:05:11,900 --> 03:05:15,800
repentance and baptism do for us
now and the answer is go ahead.

2830
03:05:15,800 --> 03:05:19,600
Give me an answer.
Well, they serve as the, you

2831
03:05:19,600 --> 03:05:22,400
know, Faith baptism of
repentance, is the entryway into

2832
03:05:22,400 --> 03:05:24,700
the Gospel Kingdom.
Yeah, right.

2833
03:05:24,700 --> 03:05:27,200
I mean, it's an ordinance that
must be kept.

2834
03:05:27,300 --> 03:05:30,900
Yeah.
Now, The Logical conclusion is

2835
03:05:30,900 --> 03:05:34,600
that if what Joseph Smith said
is true, which I believe it is

2836
03:05:34,600 --> 03:05:36,900
that those things existed prior
to Christ.

2837
03:05:37,000 --> 03:05:38,500
Why would we need to do them
now?

2838
03:05:39,100 --> 03:05:39,700
Wipe that?
Right?

2839
03:05:39,700 --> 03:05:43,800
Yeah, Jesus did away with
everything before, right?

2840
03:05:43,800 --> 03:05:49,600
So fill the same rules, apply to
the stuff that maybe we, who

2841
03:05:49,600 --> 03:05:53,800
look at things to pre, guys, as
you like say, seeing

2842
03:05:53,800 --> 03:05:56,300
distasteful.
Just because they seem

2843
03:05:56,300 --> 03:06:00,800
distasteful, doesn't mean that
they're not just Has necessary

2844
03:06:00,800 --> 03:06:04,200
meaningful and necessary and as
baptism faith and repentance.

2845
03:06:04,400 --> 03:06:06,500
That's exactly right, that's
exactly the argument.

2846
03:06:06,500 --> 03:06:11,800
Like, if if those things, Faith
baptism of repentance have value

2847
03:06:11,800 --> 03:06:15,200
both before and after and we can
it doesn't matter what you say.

2848
03:06:15,400 --> 03:06:19,600
You you give any benefit any
reason why God would say those

2849
03:06:19,600 --> 03:06:21,200
things.
What why God would come and

2850
03:06:21,200 --> 03:06:22,700
those things.
And tell us about the sings.

2851
03:06:23,500 --> 03:06:26,000
Whatever reason you give applies
before and after?

2852
03:06:26,000 --> 03:06:29,300
Yep and the same thing, if you
can come up with any good Reason

2853
03:06:29,300 --> 03:06:32,500
for sacrifice.
Like it's the same reason with

2854
03:06:32,500 --> 03:06:34,300
all the principles of gospel.
It's just this.

2855
03:06:35,400 --> 03:06:38,900
It was a, he did come in the
Meridian of time, but there

2856
03:06:38,900 --> 03:06:42,200
wasn't like a discontinuity and
God's plan know everything

2857
03:06:42,200 --> 03:06:45,900
before.
And after just points towards

2858
03:06:46,600 --> 03:06:52,000
the Meridian everything before
and after points towards a great

2859
03:06:52,000 --> 03:06:54,900
sacrifice, I think we tend to
look at things as being in

2860
03:06:54,900 --> 03:06:57,500
different books.
While God looks at things as

2861
03:06:57,500 --> 03:06:59,000
being different chapters of the
same.

2862
03:06:59,100 --> 03:07:01,300
Right.
It's a good way to put it and so

2863
03:07:01,300 --> 03:07:04,900
oftentimes we tend to be like,
nope, all Testament is done,

2864
03:07:05,000 --> 03:07:08,100
that's the end of that book.
We don't have to worry about

2865
03:07:08,100 --> 03:07:10,400
what's in that book.
Maybe we reference it from time

2866
03:07:10,400 --> 03:07:14,700
to time as a historical is
historical, but that's done.

2867
03:07:14,700 --> 03:07:18,900
Now we're in this new book and I
don't think I don't think God

2868
03:07:18,900 --> 03:07:20,500
reference.
This is what that way.

2869
03:07:20,600 --> 03:07:24,500
I think it's the same book with
different chapters and those

2870
03:07:24,500 --> 03:07:26,600
chapters all those chapters are
just as important.

2871
03:07:27,100 --> 03:07:30,600
The other thing I want to say at
this point The point is that

2872
03:07:31,300 --> 03:07:36,300
you've done a great job there of
making the following point,

2873
03:07:36,300 --> 03:07:39,100
which is, I asked the question
earlier.

2874
03:07:39,700 --> 03:07:43,600
Why weren't these things brought
up by Joseph Smith, or restored

2875
03:07:43,600 --> 03:07:48,600
by Joseph Smith?
As fundamentalist we have a

2876
03:07:49,000 --> 03:07:53,200
propensity to say, we're going
back to the source, right?

2877
03:07:53,200 --> 03:07:56,600
The source being Joseph Smith,
we now have gone back to the

2878
03:07:56,600 --> 03:08:01,400
sources.
You've just shown and have What

2879
03:08:01,400 --> 03:08:05,800
Joseph's words speak for
themselves on the necessity of

2880
03:08:05,800 --> 03:08:13,300
these things?
Yeah, I think in many ways now a

2881
03:08:13,300 --> 03:08:18,300
lot of Mormons like until unless
they had read this wouldn't

2882
03:08:18,300 --> 03:08:21,500
believe that, right?
Because because we have

2883
03:08:21,500 --> 03:08:25,400
inherited this Protestant world,
view of what religion should be.

2884
03:08:25,400 --> 03:08:28,800
And you know, that like you said
the Old Testaments done away

2885
03:08:29,000 --> 03:08:30,800
like that is, that is a common
thing.

2886
03:08:31,100 --> 03:08:36,900
In fact I even remember and you
probably do too you know in the

2887
03:08:37,400 --> 03:08:40,700
like that that little piece
about sacrifice being done away

2888
03:08:40,900 --> 03:08:43,900
is like part of the donut.
Yeah.

2889
03:08:44,300 --> 03:08:45,900
Right.
They say that even though Joe it

2890
03:08:45,900 --> 03:08:50,200
contradicts flatly with what
Joseph said and also contradicts

2891
03:08:50,200 --> 03:08:55,000
with what the prophet said like
he quoted Malachi about in the

2892
03:08:55,000 --> 03:08:56,900
future.
The sons of Levi will be

2893
03:08:56,900 --> 03:09:00,500
purified and then they will
again offer acceptable offerings

2894
03:09:00,500 --> 03:09:05,500
to the Lord.
And so do you view that portion

2895
03:09:05,500 --> 03:09:08,600
of the endowment as an error.
Yes.

2896
03:09:08,900 --> 03:09:13,100
Okay yeah or certainly or
certainly without a new

2897
03:09:13,100 --> 03:09:14,300
alliance.
Okay.

2898
03:09:14,300 --> 03:09:21,400
Yeah so now Jews they believe in
the law of Moses and they

2899
03:09:21,400 --> 03:09:27,700
believe that it's the word of
God and commanded but they also

2900
03:09:27,700 --> 03:09:34,200
don't offer sacrifices.
Really they are waiting for the

2901
03:09:34,208 --> 03:09:37,600
same thing that Joseph said,
we're waiting for in order to

2902
03:09:37,600 --> 03:09:44,400
fully do these things right?
He said These sacrifices

2903
03:09:44,900 --> 03:09:47,700
levitical and patriarchal as
well as every ordinance

2904
03:09:47,700 --> 03:09:50,600
belonging to the priesthood will
when the Temple of the Lord

2905
03:09:50,600 --> 03:09:54,300
shall be built and the sons of
Levi purified, be restored and

2906
03:09:54,300 --> 03:09:56,900
attended to and all their powers
ramifications and blessings.

2907
03:09:57,700 --> 03:10:01,700
So we don't have a place to do
all the things.

2908
03:10:02,400 --> 03:10:04,700
The Jews don't have a place
either and that is the reason

2909
03:10:04,700 --> 03:10:09,000
why Jews don't do use aren't
doing sacrifice either.

2910
03:10:09,500 --> 03:10:11,900
They're waiting for the temple
to be rebuilt.

2911
03:10:12,200 --> 03:10:16,100
In Jerusalem, right?
So, so, let me let the

2912
03:10:16,108 --> 03:10:17,400
difference between Mormons and
Jews.

2913
03:10:17,400 --> 03:10:21,900
Is that Jews are looking forward
to that and Mormons for the most

2914
03:10:21,900 --> 03:10:25,000
part have no idea that that's in
the plan, right?

2915
03:10:25,000 --> 03:10:28,400
So let me ask you this, because
I'm just curious on what your

2916
03:10:28,400 --> 03:10:31,500
opinion is on this.
Do you foresee like a levitical

2917
03:10:31,500 --> 03:10:34,400
temple?
So to speak and then yes and

2918
03:10:34,400 --> 03:10:37,400
Melchizedek Temple because I
think that follows exactly with

2919
03:10:37,400 --> 03:10:40,200
what Joseph Smith had in mind.
Because if you look at again,

2920
03:10:40,200 --> 03:10:42,900
because I'm a surveyor and
really kind of Of a nerd.

2921
03:10:43,100 --> 03:10:47,500
I look at those old maps and I
kind of get a little taken with

2922
03:10:47,500 --> 03:10:49,300
them, right?
I mean, yeah, they're beautiful.

2923
03:10:49,300 --> 03:10:51,700
They're beautiful right, man.
Mechanism is an art.

2924
03:10:51,700 --> 03:10:54,300
Yeah.
And so, when you look at the

2925
03:10:54,300 --> 03:10:59,500
original layout, that Joseph had
24 temples 24, right, and one of

2926
03:10:59,500 --> 03:11:02,800
those, if I remember correctly
was for the levitical twist.

2927
03:11:03,200 --> 03:11:04,700
Yeah.
Half yep.

2928
03:11:05,100 --> 03:11:08,500
Yeah.
And I don't have I don't have

2929
03:11:08,500 --> 03:11:14,600
the reference So, I apologize
for that, but I know, I think it

2930
03:11:14,600 --> 03:11:18,500
was, John Taylor had a vision of
like that Temple complex in

2931
03:11:18,500 --> 03:11:23,600
operation in the future, and he
describes these pillars of smoke

2932
03:11:23,600 --> 03:11:27,100
coming from altars.
I know what you're talking

2933
03:11:27,100 --> 03:11:30,400
about.
Yeah, so, so, it's coming back

2934
03:11:30,400 --> 03:11:35,900
now, when we, when we read this,
and we, with our Greek eyes, we

2935
03:11:36,000 --> 03:11:40,200
grab onto this part here, where
he says the law of Moses He's

2936
03:11:40,200 --> 03:11:44,300
Joe said, although he before he
said, every single thing that's

2937
03:11:44,300 --> 03:11:48,000
been required by the priesthood
in any, dispensation will be

2938
03:11:48,000 --> 03:11:51,900
restored, and he talks about you
in Leviticus chapter 2 and he

2939
03:11:51,900 --> 03:11:53,400
talks about the levitical
offerings.

2940
03:11:53,400 --> 03:11:56,900
And then he says something, he
says, it's not to be understood

2941
03:11:56,900 --> 03:11:59,500
that the law of Moses will be
established again with all its

2942
03:11:59,500 --> 03:12:03,300
rights varieties and ceremonies.
This has never been spoken of by

2943
03:12:03,300 --> 03:12:08,000
the prophets and so we look at
that and we're like ahh see all

2944
03:12:08,000 --> 03:12:10,900
that stuff is done away even
though Though, he just barely

2945
03:12:10,900 --> 03:12:14,300
talked about the levitical, The
Book of Leviticus, okay.

2946
03:12:14,300 --> 03:12:18,500
So so what how do we like parse
that out?

2947
03:12:18,900 --> 03:12:24,500
And what I the conclusion I've
come to and I can explain is

2948
03:12:24,500 --> 03:12:28,400
that we don't know what the law
of Moses is.

2949
03:12:28,900 --> 03:12:31,900
Okay.
So I remember and maybe you do

2950
03:12:31,900 --> 03:12:38,000
too LL as a convert maybe maybe
you don't but I remember Growing

2951
03:12:38,000 --> 03:12:41,500
up in the church and having
Sunday school lessons, about law

2952
03:12:41,500 --> 03:12:45,900
of Moses, and about all the
crazy things that are required.

2953
03:12:46,300 --> 03:12:48,300
And we've talked about some of
them here.

2954
03:12:48,300 --> 03:12:52,200
Now, like when we do you make
matzo for Rice over?

2955
03:12:52,200 --> 03:12:56,300
Like it has to be, you have to
grind the wheat.

2956
03:12:57,300 --> 03:13:01,000
Mix the ingredients need it,
roll it out, and put it in the

2957
03:13:01,000 --> 03:13:06,600
oven in under 18 minutes.
Otherwise, not Kosher otherwise.

2958
03:13:06,600 --> 03:13:11,100
And if you eat it for Passover,
if that has happy you violated

2959
03:13:11,100 --> 03:13:14,800
that, then you know then you're
sitting right and it's breaking

2960
03:13:14,800 --> 03:13:16,500
the Commandment.
So of course the scriptures

2961
03:13:16,500 --> 03:13:20,500
don't say any of that stuff but
I remember being taught that

2962
03:13:20,500 --> 03:13:23,700
that is what the law of Moses is
CI.

2963
03:13:23,700 --> 03:13:27,300
And and I remember hearing very
similar things and son School

2964
03:13:27,300 --> 03:13:31,000
Adult Sunday school.
And I'm like, we don't really

2965
03:13:31,000 --> 03:13:35,500
know right because by the time
we start getting a real good

2966
03:13:35,500 --> 03:13:39,700
record of what the law.
The law of Moses is and quote.

2967
03:13:39,700 --> 03:13:42,000
Yeah.
It's already been pardon.

2968
03:13:42,000 --> 03:13:44,100
The expression.
Kind of, probably bastardized, a

2969
03:13:44,100 --> 03:13:46,500
little bit by some of the
Pharisees, right?

2970
03:13:46,600 --> 03:13:50,600
Yes. 100 and so, we don't know
exactly what that was.

2971
03:13:51,800 --> 03:13:54,000
So I agree with you.
Totally there, let me ask you

2972
03:13:54,000 --> 03:13:55,800
one more question, please remove
on here.

2973
03:13:57,000 --> 03:14:01,900
How do you square that with what
Jesus said in 3rd Nephi?

2974
03:14:01,900 --> 03:14:05,400
When he said, animal sacrifices
are done away with now but now I

2975
03:14:05,400 --> 03:14:07,600
require the broken heart and a
contrite spirit.

2976
03:14:07,600 --> 03:14:08,700
Yeah.
How do you square that?

2977
03:14:08,700 --> 03:14:11,700
Yeah, that's a really good
question and that's a big

2978
03:14:11,700 --> 03:14:15,900
question.
I'm going to start with the

2979
03:14:15,900 --> 03:14:19,500
broken heart and a contrite
spirit because people read that

2980
03:14:19,800 --> 03:14:25,400
and they'll be like ah, this is
like a new thing when in fact

2981
03:14:25,500 --> 03:14:26,600
broken heart and a contrite
spirit.

2982
03:14:26,800 --> 03:14:31,700
It that's an old thing, right?
That's in Deuteronomy, mmm, you

2983
03:14:31,700 --> 03:14:38,000
know, okay.
Actually have I know you came to

2984
03:14:38,000 --> 03:14:41,400
the restoration Torah
conference.

2985
03:14:41,500 --> 03:14:43,700
Someone took mine, is that
right?

2986
03:14:43,700 --> 03:14:46,100
I wish I would.
I have your girl, bring you

2987
03:14:46,100 --> 03:14:50,800
another one.
All right, so now this one, but

2988
03:14:50,800 --> 03:14:56,100
last year, my talk was talk.
I gave was about, animal

2989
03:14:56,100 --> 03:15:00,800
sacrifice specifically and, and
I talked about that that Book of

2990
03:15:00,800 --> 03:15:04,100
Mormon verse that specific book
and a in 3rd Nephi.

2991
03:15:05,400 --> 03:15:08,400
So I'm going to refer to that.
I'm sure.

2992
03:15:09,100 --> 03:15:18,700
So there's there's several
several things going on, I'm

2993
03:15:18,700 --> 03:15:24,500
going to read that stuff. 3rd
Nephi chapter 9, verse 17,

2994
03:15:24,500 --> 03:15:28,800
through 19.
Behold by me, Redemption cometh.

2995
03:15:28,900 --> 03:15:31,500
And In Me Is law of Moses.
Fulfilled.

2996
03:15:32,000 --> 03:15:33,900
I am the light and life of the
world.

2997
03:15:34,100 --> 03:15:37,900
I am Alpha and Omega the
beginning and the end and you

2998
03:15:37,900 --> 03:15:41,200
shall offer open to me.
No more shedding of blood.

2999
03:15:41,300 --> 03:15:42,900
Yeah.
Your sacrifices and your burnt

3000
03:15:42,900 --> 03:15:44,700
offerings shall be done away
for.

3001
03:15:44,700 --> 03:15:47,400
I will accept.
None of your sacrifices and your

3002
03:15:47,400 --> 03:15:52,600
burnt offerings.
Okay, so we have like the

3003
03:15:52,608 --> 03:15:57,200
standard interpretation of that
is at odds with what Joseph just

3004
03:15:57,200 --> 03:16:01,600
said, right?
And it also is at odds with what

3005
03:16:01,900 --> 03:16:09,400
Malachi and Isaiah and Ezekiel
say So so yeah, we have to

3006
03:16:09,400 --> 03:16:17,700
harmonize that and one way I
would say is to accept that God

3007
03:16:17,700 --> 03:16:23,900
has different plans and like he
said, yes, do sacrifice note.

3008
03:16:23,900 --> 03:16:26,700
Now, I won't accept that now,
it's actually Wicked but in the

3009
03:16:26,700 --> 03:16:28,500
future that will be righteous
again.

3010
03:16:29,300 --> 03:16:33,300
And I don't really like that
kind of a God.

3011
03:16:33,300 --> 03:16:34,900
You know, that's, that's the
Greek.

3012
03:16:34,900 --> 03:16:37,200
That's the Greek God, because
their gods are fickle.

3013
03:16:37,200 --> 03:16:47,000
So, so my my interpretation to
that is that we can look at some

3014
03:16:47,000 --> 03:16:52,700
of these words with the care,
right?

3015
03:16:52,700 --> 03:16:56,200
Axioms.
Instead of the Greek axioms,

3016
03:16:56,200 --> 03:17:00,100
carrot, axioms, are everything
that Every scripture that's

3017
03:17:00,100 --> 03:17:04,100
given has to harmonize with the
previously given scripture

3018
03:17:04,100 --> 03:17:10,200
because God is constant.
So we'll take one first one in

3019
03:17:10,200 --> 03:17:12,800
me.
The law of Moses is fulfilled.

3020
03:17:14,300 --> 03:17:20,000
So in English fulfilled can has
a range of meanings.

3021
03:17:20,900 --> 03:17:23,000
Like you look up the dictionary.
They'll be three or four.

3022
03:17:23,300 --> 03:17:24,700
True definition or something,
right.

3023
03:17:25,500 --> 03:17:28,500
The one that we latch onto with
our Greek understanding is

3024
03:17:28,500 --> 03:17:33,200
fulfilled, beans wrapped up
finished done, right?

3025
03:17:35,000 --> 03:17:38,700
But if we're looking at, It
through Hebrew eyes, we might

3026
03:17:38,900 --> 03:17:46,100
read that and say fulfilled
means means he did it not going

3027
03:17:46,100 --> 03:17:51,800
to Dunaway.
This is like when when Jesus

3028
03:17:51,800 --> 03:17:56,800
goes to John the Baptist and
says, baptize me.

3029
03:17:56,900 --> 03:18:01,200
John says not worry.
Not worthy to unlatch your shoe

3030
03:18:01,800 --> 03:18:07,700
Jesus says, suffer it.
So, you know, for we must do

3031
03:18:07,700 --> 03:18:11,100
this to fulfill all
righteousness, right?

3032
03:18:11,100 --> 03:18:14,400
So when we read fulfill, Jesus,
fulfilled, all righteousness.

3033
03:18:14,400 --> 03:18:17,300
Right there, does that mean that
he did away with righteousness

3034
03:18:17,900 --> 03:18:21,300
or I mean, he performed the
righteousness, you performed it

3035
03:18:21,300 --> 03:18:22,500
performed it.
Yeah.

3036
03:18:22,500 --> 03:18:26,600
And when Jesus, so, I believe
when Jesus says in me is the law

3037
03:18:26,600 --> 03:18:30,300
of Moses fulfilled.
That means a couple of things

3038
03:18:30,300 --> 03:18:32,900
but not, but in a positive
sense, not a negative one, is

3039
03:18:32,900 --> 03:18:36,100
that he came to set an example
for us.

3040
03:18:36,800 --> 03:18:39,200
We believe that like, it's sure
he was sinless.

3041
03:18:39,200 --> 03:18:40,800
That means he kept the whole
law.

3042
03:18:40,800 --> 03:18:44,600
He did the whole law and not
only not only do the whole law,

3043
03:18:44,600 --> 03:18:51,700
but he showed us. what the law
meant and to remind us that the

3044
03:18:51,708 --> 03:19:01,100
law was pointing to him and, and
also reminds us not to be

3045
03:19:01,100 --> 03:19:05,600
concerned or at least not overly
concerned with like, the

3046
03:19:05,600 --> 03:19:10,700
legalistic minutiae of the lie
about, how long water has been

3047
03:19:10,700 --> 03:19:15,000
touching that flower before it
goes in the oven, like, that is

3048
03:19:15,000 --> 03:19:19,100
not what it's about is about
what the Word say it's about

3049
03:19:19,100 --> 03:19:22,600
getting rid of the Traditions,
is about loving your God, and

3050
03:19:22,600 --> 03:19:26,600
loving your neighbor, and all
the other Commandments, hang on

3051
03:19:26,600 --> 03:19:29,800
these things, right?
So that is the sense that which

3052
03:19:29,800 --> 03:19:33,200
he fulfilled its, that he
actually did it set an example

3053
03:19:33,200 --> 03:19:38,600
for us and showed us how to
interpret the meaning of the law

3054
03:19:40,200 --> 03:19:43,000
in the way, it was intended.
Okay.

3055
03:19:43,000 --> 03:19:47,500
So there's so there's one.
Okay, now, I like to point out

3056
03:19:47,500 --> 03:19:50,300
that this this verse is book in
The Book of Mormon is actually

3057
03:19:52,900 --> 03:19:59,100
well, I have to back up a little
bit because I'm I don't believe

3058
03:19:59,900 --> 03:20:05,700
that the Book of Mormon is
Perfect.

3059
03:20:05,900 --> 03:20:08,600
I do believe what Jesus said.
It's the most correct book, and

3060
03:20:08,600 --> 03:20:12,200
it will bring us closer to God
by abiding by its precepts.

3061
03:20:12,900 --> 03:20:14,500
Okay?
Don't have any problem with that

3062
03:20:14,800 --> 03:20:18,500
but the Book of Mormon authors
themselves, say a bunch of times

3063
03:20:18,500 --> 03:20:20,200
if there's anything wrong with
this.

3064
03:20:20,300 --> 03:20:24,100
Like they're the errors of men
don't condemn this because you

3065
03:20:24,100 --> 03:20:27,100
found an error in it right, you
know I'm talking about you,

3066
03:20:27,400 --> 03:20:35,900
okay?
So so here's so we have a saying

3067
03:20:35,900 --> 03:20:39,300
in English.
More is better, right?

3068
03:20:39,600 --> 03:20:45,300
Okay, so Jesus says, well, let
me back up, so I don't know if

3069
03:20:45,300 --> 03:20:48,100
you've ever if you've ever tried
to translate something to a

3070
03:20:48,108 --> 03:20:52,500
different language, you know,
It's tricky because you'll read

3071
03:20:52,500 --> 03:20:56,800
a word in the foreign language
and that has a range will have a

3072
03:20:56,800 --> 03:20:59,100
range of meetings.
You look in the in dictionary

3073
03:20:59,100 --> 03:21:02,200
and there's four, definitions
for it and you have to pick one

3074
03:21:03,400 --> 03:21:07,100
and then put it into English and
you'll pick an English word and

3075
03:21:07,100 --> 03:21:13,200
it has a range of meanings to
and you can get The wrong idea.

3076
03:21:13,300 --> 03:21:16,600
Sure translating pretty quickly.
If you get a few steps off, I

3077
03:21:16,608 --> 03:21:19,500
mean it's kind of like the yeah
serving thing we talked about.

3078
03:21:21,200 --> 03:21:28,600
So so so just to demonstrate
this, there's a verse in the New

3079
03:21:28,600 --> 03:21:32,200
Testament.
In first Timothy, it says a

3080
03:21:32,200 --> 03:21:35,600
bishop, then must be blameless
the husband of one wife.

3081
03:21:36,500 --> 03:21:38,100
Okay, you know that scripture.
Can I do.

3082
03:21:38,300 --> 03:21:41,200
Okay.
So in Greek, the the word one is

3083
03:21:41,200 --> 03:21:44,600
Mia.
And in Greek has kind of a range

3084
03:21:44,600 --> 03:21:48,100
of meanings and we could
translate it different ways.

3085
03:21:48,100 --> 03:21:52,700
It can mean it could be
translated as one, which is what

3086
03:21:52,700 --> 03:21:53,700
it is.
In the King James.

3087
03:21:53,800 --> 03:21:57,800
It could be translated as a,
okay, and it can also be

3088
03:21:57,800 --> 03:22:02,600
translated as first Which also
means one.

3089
03:22:02,600 --> 03:22:06,100
Like sometimes sometimes those
mean, the same thing, right?

3090
03:22:06,100 --> 03:22:11,200
If someone tells you you're a
number one that also means your

3091
03:22:11,200 --> 03:22:14,000
first, right?
Because you, you won the race or

3092
03:22:14,000 --> 03:22:18,500
whatever, right?
And one also means a sometimes.

3093
03:22:18,500 --> 03:22:21,000
Give me give me one water.
Give me a water.

3094
03:22:21,200 --> 03:22:23,900
Those mean the same thing.
So sometimes they overlap, but

3095
03:22:23,900 --> 03:22:30,600
if we put those into this verse,
you know, say a bishop must be

3096
03:22:31,100 --> 03:22:37,300
Husband of one wife or Bishop
must be the husband of a wife or

3097
03:22:37,600 --> 03:22:42,000
a, bishop must be the husband of
his first wife, those all have

3098
03:22:42,000 --> 03:22:45,500
different meanings.
Now, if it's the husband of one

3099
03:22:45,500 --> 03:22:48,500
wife, then it's like prohibition
on polygamy, right?

3100
03:22:48,600 --> 03:22:51,900
If it's the bishop must be the
husband of a wife, then, that

3101
03:22:51,900 --> 03:22:54,600
means no Bachelors, right?
He's gotta be Mary taught me

3102
03:22:54,600 --> 03:22:56,600
married.
And if it's a, bishop must be

3103
03:22:56,600 --> 03:22:59,200
the husband of his first wife.
That means he can't have been

3104
03:22:59,200 --> 03:23:01,300
divorced, right?
It's a Efficient.

3105
03:23:01,300 --> 03:23:03,800
So probation on polygamy,
bachelorhood or divorced like

3106
03:23:03,900 --> 03:23:07,400
those are all very different and
and you could make and people do

3107
03:23:07,400 --> 03:23:10,800
make Arguments for which is the
proper way.

3108
03:23:11,100 --> 03:23:14,700
And I think that's where
understanding the culture in

3109
03:23:14,700 --> 03:23:19,700
which it's coming out of bounds.
So actually finally right

3110
03:23:20,100 --> 03:23:24,500
because when we if you look at
that verse with Greek and Roman

3111
03:23:24,500 --> 03:23:30,300
eyes then then you say it's
brought attention upon flicking.

3112
03:23:30,300 --> 03:23:35,900
Yeah.
I think I think that given the

3113
03:23:35,900 --> 03:23:43,100
context of this and also knowing
what the law says, about

3114
03:23:43,100 --> 03:23:48,200
polygamy means which is allowed
I think that it is better

3115
03:23:48,200 --> 03:23:52,300
translated his first wife in
other words like if if a man

3116
03:23:52,600 --> 03:23:57,100
can't keep his marriage together
he should not be managing the

3117
03:23:57,100 --> 03:23:59,100
congregation.
I would agree with you and I

3118
03:23:59,100 --> 03:24:05,200
think it probably Yeah, I think
I think the, the standard there

3119
03:24:05,200 --> 03:24:08,200
would be given what we know
about Jewish tradition.

3120
03:24:08,200 --> 03:24:11,600
Yeah.
Judaism is that he's got to be

3121
03:24:11,600 --> 03:24:13,400
married and never have been
divorced.

3122
03:24:13,700 --> 03:24:16,400
Yeah.
Right or pop or possibly a wife

3123
03:24:16,400 --> 03:24:19,800
at least, right?
Because you got to be able to

3124
03:24:21,000 --> 03:24:22,800
handle relationships.
Yep.

3125
03:24:23,200 --> 03:24:24,200
Yep.
Absolutely.

3126
03:24:24,200 --> 03:24:26,300
So, but that will depend on
whether we're looking at this

3127
03:24:26,300 --> 03:24:31,400
with Greek or Hebrew eyes, we
can read the same thing and come

3128
03:24:31,400 --> 03:24:38,500
to Very different conclusions.
So now we don't have the gold

3129
03:24:38,500 --> 03:24:40,300
plates, right?
Okay.

3130
03:24:40,700 --> 03:24:43,400
We know that they were written
in.

3131
03:24:43,600 --> 03:24:48,500
They were written in Hebrew with
a different script, right?

3132
03:24:48,600 --> 03:24:52,500
It was Hebrew written with
reformed Egyptian, but it was

3133
03:24:52,500 --> 03:24:55,100
still Hebrew.
It's like, you know, the desert

3134
03:24:55,100 --> 03:24:56,600
alphabet is.
Yeah, yep.

3135
03:24:56,600 --> 03:24:58,300
I know what it is.
Yep.

3136
03:24:58,300 --> 03:25:01,100
So I don't know it.
No, but I know what it is.

3137
03:25:01,100 --> 03:25:02,800
Yeah.
The desert alphabet is not

3138
03:25:02,800 --> 03:25:06,000
another language.
No, it is English written with a

3139
03:25:06,008 --> 03:25:09,300
different, alphabet right?
Which is what, and it is

3140
03:25:09,300 --> 03:25:12,400
actually compressed compared to
the Latin of, right?

3141
03:25:12,400 --> 03:25:15,700
That which is what reformed
Egyptian was, it was Hebrew,

3142
03:25:16,700 --> 03:25:18,200
right?
So for an alphabet, that's

3143
03:25:18,200 --> 03:25:21,800
exactly right.
So even though we don't know, We

3144
03:25:21,800 --> 03:25:26,300
don't have plates to know.
Excuse me.

3145
03:25:26,300 --> 03:25:29,900
Um, what was said we can kind
of, we can look in the Old

3146
03:25:29,900 --> 03:25:36,000
Testament and see where the word
more was written in the Old

3147
03:25:36,000 --> 03:25:38,800
Testament.
And we find a Hebrew word, yo,

3148
03:25:38,800 --> 03:25:43,500
tear.
And and like the Greek word, Mia

3149
03:25:43,500 --> 03:25:46,900
that I just said about Timothy,
like, yo tear has a range of

3150
03:25:46,900 --> 03:25:52,500
meanings and it can mean more
but also mean better or greater.

3151
03:25:53,800 --> 03:25:57,400
Okay, and sometimes more and
better are the same thing, I

3152
03:25:57,400 --> 03:26:01,400
feel more is better, right?
But if I put these different

3153
03:26:01,400 --> 03:26:04,500
senses of the word into a
different sentence, they can

3154
03:26:04,500 --> 03:26:08,800
mean different things.
So, if I said King Solomon, had

3155
03:26:08,800 --> 03:26:14,800
more wisdom than any King before
him or King Solomon, had greater

3156
03:26:14,800 --> 03:26:18,100
wisdom than any King before him,
those mean the same thing,

3157
03:26:18,300 --> 03:26:21,800
right?
But if I, if I now put it up,

3158
03:26:22,000 --> 03:26:26,400
put it into The Book of Mormon
sentence, ye shall offer up unto

3159
03:26:26,400 --> 03:26:30,800
me.
No more shedding of blood or you

3160
03:26:30,800 --> 03:26:34,600
will offer up unto me.
No greater or no better shedding

3161
03:26:34,600 --> 03:26:36,900
of blood.
Okay.

3162
03:26:37,200 --> 03:26:38,900
Then that means something
different.

3163
03:26:38,900 --> 03:26:46,300
Right.
That means so, 11 means a

3164
03:26:46,300 --> 03:26:51,700
Prohibition on sacrifice and
also kind of a contradiction to

3165
03:26:52,100 --> 03:26:55,300
what was previously revealed.
Yield the other way of looking

3166
03:26:55,300 --> 03:26:59,800
at it and understanding that
maybe the word could be better.

3167
03:26:59,800 --> 03:27:05,800
Chosen, the other one is like a
magnification of the awesomeness

3168
03:27:05,800 --> 03:27:08,600
of the atonement which he just
had performed like you will

3169
03:27:08,600 --> 03:27:11,100
offer to me.
No greater shedding of blood.

3170
03:27:11,100 --> 03:27:18,600
Like then what I have just done.
Okay, so now we can we could go

3171
03:27:18,600 --> 03:27:22,700
through the rest of that verse
but the idea is something like

3172
03:27:22,700 --> 03:27:23,100
that.
Like what?

3173
03:27:23,300 --> 03:27:28,600
it with the Timothy and what we
did with more more versus

3174
03:27:28,600 --> 03:27:34,300
greater With the rest of that
verse.

3175
03:27:34,600 --> 03:27:38,300
And, you know, I will I will
freely admit.

3176
03:27:39,500 --> 03:27:43,900
That there are plenty of times
in both the New Testament and

3177
03:27:43,900 --> 03:27:49,700
the Book of Mormon where it
seems like God has changed his

3178
03:27:49,700 --> 03:27:53,500
plan.
Like if you read it as within

3179
03:27:53,500 --> 03:27:56,500
the way that we've been trained
to read it, you can make a good

3180
03:27:56,500 --> 03:28:02,700
argument, no doubt.
But for me I would rather

3181
03:28:03,100 --> 03:28:10,000
wrestle with the verse a little
bit and and try to see if I can

3182
03:28:10,400 --> 03:28:14,900
understand it in a Hebrew way
that will harmonize with

3183
03:28:15,000 --> 03:28:16,600
everything that was previously
given.

3184
03:28:16,800 --> 03:28:21,000
Okay, so that I don't have an
inconstant fickle.

3185
03:28:21,100 --> 03:28:24,100
You can just change what was
righteous one day into

3186
03:28:24,100 --> 03:28:27,200
something?
That's unacceptable or Wicked

3187
03:28:27,200 --> 03:28:28,400
the next day.
Right?

3188
03:28:28,400 --> 03:28:30,900
Right.
So I don't want the definition

3189
03:28:30,900 --> 03:28:34,900
because as I said I said back to
being like sin is breaking the

3190
03:28:34,900 --> 03:28:36,700
law.
But if the law is changing, that

3191
03:28:36,700 --> 03:28:39,200
means the definition of what sin
is is changing.

3192
03:28:39,200 --> 03:28:42,400
Which means the definition of
what is righteous is changing.

3193
03:28:42,400 --> 03:28:46,600
That makes sense and I would, I
would rather wrestle with the

3194
03:28:46,600 --> 03:28:50,000
scriptures and maybe and maybe
look at something that maybe is

3195
03:28:50,000 --> 03:28:53,800
a little less obvious.
Yes, of an interpretation but

3196
03:28:53,900 --> 03:28:56,600
that makes it harmonize with
those previous, not giving them,

3197
03:28:56,600 --> 03:28:59,900
that makes sense.
So we could go through the other

3198
03:28:59,900 --> 03:29:03,000
parts of that.
But but each of this read my

3199
03:29:03,000 --> 03:29:05,000
top.
I'll give ya get the rest of it.

3200
03:29:05,000 --> 03:29:07,800
Is that something that you can
maybe send me a link to and I'll

3201
03:29:07,800 --> 03:29:09,200
put it in the notes, so the
yeah?

3202
03:29:09,200 --> 03:29:10,600
Sure.
Yeah, that's a great.

3203
03:29:12,800 --> 03:29:17,600
Okay, so so back to like, what
the law of Moses is like an LDS

3204
03:29:17,600 --> 03:29:19,500
Sunday school.
I remember very distinctly

3205
03:29:19,500 --> 03:29:23,700
having this lesson.
And we looked at like what we do

3206
03:29:23,700 --> 03:29:28,100
on Sunday, right?
To go to church and to worship

3207
03:29:28,300 --> 03:29:31,600
and the teacher told us about
all these ways that we are

3208
03:29:31,600 --> 03:29:33,700
actually breaking the law of
Moses.

3209
03:29:34,100 --> 03:29:37,900
For example, like breaking the
bread, for the sacrament into

3210
03:29:37,900 --> 03:29:40,900
bite-sized pieces, breaking the
law of Moses.

3211
03:29:41,000 --> 03:29:44,900
You know, writing in your
journal or in the scriptures or

3212
03:29:44,900 --> 03:29:47,600
writing a tithing slip against
the law of Moses.

3213
03:29:47,600 --> 03:29:51,500
Here, tying your shoes on tying
your shoes tying your Necktie

3214
03:29:51,500 --> 03:29:54,500
and untying it.
All those things are actually

3215
03:29:54,600 --> 03:29:59,400
violations of the law of Moses
and he went through several

3216
03:29:59,400 --> 03:30:06,000
others and in one sense that
lesson was, I mean it was

3217
03:30:06,000 --> 03:30:07,800
eye-opening.
It was kind of like well that

3218
03:30:07,800 --> 03:30:09,600
that crazy law of Moses, you
know.

3219
03:30:10,500 --> 03:30:14,800
But but I didn't I didn't know
enough to know that none of

3220
03:30:14,800 --> 03:30:16,100
those things are in the
scriptures.

3221
03:30:16,400 --> 03:30:20,900
No, those are all rabbinic
traditions.

3222
03:30:21,100 --> 03:30:26,200
That have been elevated.
I wouldn't even say to the level

3223
03:30:26,200 --> 03:30:29,900
of commanders, their elevated
above note from because the

3224
03:30:29,900 --> 03:30:34,800
their traditions and and I'm not
I'm I don't want to say anything

3225
03:30:34,800 --> 03:30:38,200
bad about traditions for
tradition sake.

3226
03:30:38,300 --> 03:30:40,700
I said, Traditions are
necessary, Traditions are

3227
03:30:40,700 --> 03:30:45,100
beautiful, but when Traditions
get elevated to the point of

3228
03:30:45,100 --> 03:30:49,100
superseding Commandments, then
they are then they're all

3229
03:30:49,100 --> 03:30:50,600
problem.
It was a problem.

3230
03:30:50,700 --> 03:30:57,000
That's Right.
So so you know all kinds of

3231
03:30:57,000 --> 03:31:01,400
things that you've heard about
and you probably think about

3232
03:31:01,400 --> 03:31:04,600
like Christians.
Think like Jews say this is the

3233
03:31:04,600 --> 03:31:06,100
law of Moses and Christians.
Agree.

3234
03:31:06,300 --> 03:31:08,600
Yeah that is the law of Moses.
We don't want to do that.

3235
03:31:09,000 --> 03:31:13,300
You know eating meat and milk
together, having separate

3236
03:31:13,400 --> 03:31:17,200
utensils or even separate
kitchens for you know, meat milk

3237
03:31:17,200 --> 03:31:20,300
and also won the other separate
things that are not contaminated

3238
03:31:20,300 --> 03:31:22,800
with leaven.
Making multi-unit for Passover,

3239
03:31:23,700 --> 03:31:26,900
you know, washing your hands in
a particular manner, wearing the

3240
03:31:26,900 --> 03:31:28,700
yarmulke or the kippah all the
time.

3241
03:31:28,900 --> 03:31:31,900
Making your Gentile servants
work on the Sabbath even though,

3242
03:31:32,500 --> 03:31:36,000
you know, right.
There's just a million things in

3243
03:31:36,000 --> 03:31:41,800
2002 and none and none of those
are what God revealed to Moses.

3244
03:31:41,900 --> 03:31:47,000
Write every single one of those
is the those things I listed are

3245
03:31:47,000 --> 03:31:50,800
the traditions of the elders and
Jesus was criticized for

3246
03:31:50,800 --> 03:31:53,200
breaking the traditions of the
elders.

3247
03:31:53,200 --> 03:31:55,100
A lot of family.
Yeah.

3248
03:31:55,500 --> 03:32:05,700
Right.
So So where did these come from?

3249
03:32:06,900 --> 03:32:10,200
Well, these things were these
Traditions were alive and well

3250
03:32:10,200 --> 03:32:13,500
in Jesus a day.
Mhm but they were all written

3251
03:32:13,500 --> 03:32:17,500
down after the temple was
destroyed in Jerusalem.

3252
03:32:17,900 --> 03:32:23,500
The You know, the priests and
the rabbi's are like our temples

3253
03:32:23,500 --> 03:32:25,900
just been destroyed.
We are not going to be able to

3254
03:32:25,900 --> 03:32:30,700
keep the Commandments as we
understand them and neither will

3255
03:32:30,700 --> 03:32:32,600
our children.
We don't see this being

3256
03:32:32,600 --> 03:32:36,200
corrected anytime soon so we'd
better write all these things

3257
03:32:36,200 --> 03:32:40,900
down so we don't get forgotten.
And so they wrote down all of

3258
03:32:41,300 --> 03:32:46,200
the oral traditions in a book
called The Mission as actually

3259
03:32:46,300 --> 03:32:53,100
that you know, several volumes
against And then and then, you

3260
03:32:53,100 --> 03:32:56,100
know that was like from the time
of the temple destruction, feel

3261
03:32:56,100 --> 03:33:03,800
about 200 or so and then from
then to about 500 or so the

3262
03:33:03,800 --> 03:33:06,800
gemara was a written which is
like commentary on the mishnah

3263
03:33:07,300 --> 03:33:09,400
and those together are What's
called the talmud.

3264
03:33:10,000 --> 03:33:12,300
And this is the, this is the
oral traditions.

3265
03:33:13,400 --> 03:33:16,400
This is this is literally the
traditions of the elders, look

3266
03:33:18,300 --> 03:33:21,300
codified.
And And I don't, I don't think

3267
03:33:21,300 --> 03:33:26,400
that was started out of a bad
spot, right?

3268
03:33:26,400 --> 03:33:30,900
I think, I think that was
started out of a feeling of

3269
03:33:30,900 --> 03:33:38,900
necessity, because beforehand,
Israel, had a common.

3270
03:33:41,600 --> 03:33:44,600
Land.
They had common laws.

3271
03:33:45,100 --> 03:33:49,200
Now, in the time of the Spore
area, you are not going to be

3272
03:33:49,200 --> 03:33:53,500
able to return to the temple.
You are not going to be able to

3273
03:33:53,800 --> 03:33:58,500
return to Israel anytime soon.
So now I feel.

3274
03:33:58,800 --> 03:34:03,500
I think the the elders felt like
we have to figure out a way to

3275
03:34:03,500 --> 03:34:10,700
create social cohesion over vast
expanses of strict case and

3276
03:34:10,700 --> 03:34:12,800
time.
Yeah, absolutely.

3277
03:34:12,800 --> 03:34:14,900
So I think that's where a lot of
that comes from.

3278
03:34:14,900 --> 03:34:21,300
Was this desire to Keep some
sort of social cohesion.

3279
03:34:21,300 --> 03:34:23,500
Yeah.
And they did, and they have and

3280
03:34:23,500 --> 03:34:25,700
they done occur terrific job of
it.

3281
03:34:26,000 --> 03:34:27,500
Yeah.
Tremendous and there.

3282
03:34:27,500 --> 03:34:30,300
There is certain Beauty, in some
of those, one of the ones I was

3283
03:34:30,300 --> 03:34:35,100
fascinated with, please was the
one about not having milk and

3284
03:34:35,100 --> 03:34:39,100
meat together.
And when I asked Joel, Jules,

3285
03:34:39,100 --> 03:34:41,100
dad seek, I was like, why you do
that?

3286
03:34:41,300 --> 03:34:43,200
He's like, you never mixed life
and death.

3287
03:34:44,300 --> 03:34:49,000
Hmm ever.
Yeah, ever and I was like, I get

3288
03:34:49,000 --> 03:34:52,300
that I get that right and so
there's there.

3289
03:34:52,300 --> 03:34:54,800
There are certain Beauties in
those and I don't want to just

3290
03:34:54,800 --> 03:34:59,400
discredit them whole cloth
without giving them their their

3291
03:34:59,400 --> 03:35:00,600
props.
So yeah.

3292
03:35:00,700 --> 03:35:04,700
Right you know yeah well I'm
glad you said that because there

3293
03:35:04,700 --> 03:35:08,700
are there are there are
beautiful things like so my

3294
03:35:08,700 --> 03:35:13,800
family, when like there's a
rabbinic tradition too.

3295
03:35:14,100 --> 03:35:16,800
Candles on the evening before
the Senate.

3296
03:35:18,100 --> 03:35:22,500
That is not commanded anywhere
but it's there are beautiful

3297
03:35:22,500 --> 03:35:26,300
symbolisms with that.
And also, there's a tradition to

3298
03:35:26,300 --> 03:35:30,500
have bread and wine, you know,
at the beginning of every

3299
03:35:30,500 --> 03:35:34,000
Sabbath and they say these
blessings and like my family

3300
03:35:34,000 --> 03:35:35,900
does that.
It's awesome.

3301
03:35:36,100 --> 03:35:41,800
But but I, but I just don't
pretend, or assert that those

3302
03:35:41,800 --> 03:35:43,600
are Commandments.
Those are.

3303
03:35:43,700 --> 03:35:45,800
Those are Traditions with
beautiful meaning.

3304
03:35:46,600 --> 03:35:51,100
And if someone else doesn't do
that, then I'm not going to hit

3305
03:35:51,100 --> 03:35:54,200
them over the head with copy of
the talmud and say, this is a

3306
03:35:54,800 --> 03:35:57,500
Commandment that the rabbi's
gave us and they have authority

3307
03:35:58,300 --> 03:36:01,600
to change or to add to the
Commandments that God gave

3308
03:36:02,000 --> 03:36:03,000
right.
You know.

3309
03:36:03,100 --> 03:36:08,300
So so, so that's, that's the,
that's the Perpetual difficulty.

3310
03:36:08,300 --> 03:36:13,100
And and I will say though, that
because I don't want to be a

3311
03:36:13,108 --> 03:36:16,700
hypocrite because Listen to this
and be like, oh no, you told me

3312
03:36:17,000 --> 03:36:20,000
something was I'm sure that I
have done that before though.

3313
03:36:20,900 --> 03:36:26,500
You know that I have Put too
much, emphasis weather with my

3314
03:36:26,500 --> 03:36:29,400
family or with my friends and
telling them about the way

3315
03:36:29,400 --> 03:36:32,400
things are when they were not
that way.

3316
03:36:32,400 --> 03:36:35,800
So I apologize to anyone who
I've done that, to please

3317
03:36:35,800 --> 03:36:39,600
forgive me.
It's, you know, it's a constant

3318
03:36:39,600 --> 03:36:42,500
battle.
Sure to keep ourselves right?

3319
03:36:42,600 --> 03:36:45,100
Keep ourselves in check.
Yeah, absolutely.

3320
03:36:45,800 --> 03:36:48,000
But Jesus didn't Jesus, didn't
really like this.

3321
03:36:48,500 --> 03:36:52,500
No, yeah, so I'm going to read
from Mark chapter 7, okay.

3322
03:36:55,000 --> 03:36:58,300
Now, when the Pharisees gathered
to him with some of the scribes

3323
03:36:58,300 --> 03:37:00,800
who had come from Jerusalem,
they saw that, some of his

3324
03:37:00,800 --> 03:37:03,700
disciples ate with hands.
That were defiled.

3325
03:37:03,700 --> 03:37:08,600
That is unwashed for the
Pharisees and all the Jews, do

3326
03:37:08,600 --> 03:37:11,800
not eat, unless they wash their
hands properly, holding to the

3327
03:37:11,800 --> 03:37:15,800
tradition of the elders, and
when they come from the

3328
03:37:15,800 --> 03:37:18,100
marketplace, they do not eat.
Unless they wash.

3329
03:37:18,400 --> 03:37:20,400
And there are many other
Traditions that they observe

3330
03:37:20,400 --> 03:37:23,400
such as the washing of Cups and
pots and copper vessels and

3331
03:37:23,600 --> 03:37:27,000
dining couches and the Pharisees
and the scribes asked him.

3332
03:37:27,500 --> 03:37:30,600
Why do your disciples not walk,
according to the tradition of

3333
03:37:30,600 --> 03:37:34,300
the elders, but eat with defiled
hands and he said unto them.

3334
03:37:35,300 --> 03:37:40,300
Well, did Isaiah prophesy of you
Hypocrites, as it is written.

3335
03:37:41,200 --> 03:37:43,800
This people honors me with their
lips, but their heart is far

3336
03:37:43,800 --> 03:37:47,600
from me, in vain, do they
worship me teaching as doctrines

3337
03:37:47,600 --> 03:37:53,500
the Commandments of men?
So, I mean, this is what this

3338
03:37:53,500 --> 03:37:56,100
was like, the first message to
Joseph Smith, right?

3339
03:37:56,200 --> 03:37:58,200
Right.
They drop near to me with their

3340
03:37:58,200 --> 03:38:00,000
lips but their hearts are far
from me.

3341
03:38:00,100 --> 03:38:03,100
Yeah, that's quoting.
That's the quote from Isaiah to

3342
03:38:03,100 --> 03:38:04,800
write.
They teach for doctrines the

3343
03:38:04,800 --> 03:38:10,100
Commandments of men, right?
And and he goes on further, you

3344
03:38:10,100 --> 03:38:14,700
said, you actually says you
leave the Commandment of God to

3345
03:38:14,700 --> 03:38:18,900
hold to the tradition of men and
he said unto them, you have a

3346
03:38:18,900 --> 03:38:21,000
fine way.
Of rejecting the Commandment of

3347
03:38:21,000 --> 03:38:24,100
God in order to establish your
tradition and then he gives

3348
03:38:24,100 --> 03:38:26,000
them.
So this is one example, the

3349
03:38:26,000 --> 03:38:28,100
washing of hands, he gives them
another one.

3350
03:38:30,600 --> 03:38:34,100
Verse 10, for Moses said, honor
your father, and your mother,

3351
03:38:34,600 --> 03:38:38,800
and also, whoever reviles father
or mother must surely die.

3352
03:38:39,100 --> 03:38:42,900
But you say, if a man tells his
father or mother, whatever you

3353
03:38:42,900 --> 03:38:44,700
would have gained from me, is
korban.

3354
03:38:44,700 --> 03:38:48,600
That is given to God, then you
no longer permit him to do

3355
03:38:48,600 --> 03:38:51,800
anything for his father and
mother thus making the word of

3356
03:38:51,800 --> 03:38:55,800
God by your tradition that you
have handed down making void,

3357
03:38:55,800 --> 03:38:59,400
the tradition of the were sorry.
Thus making void the word of God

3358
03:38:59,400 --> 03:39:04,300
by your Mission that you have
handed down and many such things

3359
03:39:04,700 --> 03:39:15,100
you do. so, so Jesus didn't have
a lot of nice things to say

3360
03:39:15,100 --> 03:39:22,800
about these Traditions that were
Out of harmony with right?

3361
03:39:22,800 --> 03:39:26,300
What was revealed by God to
Moses that he quotes, Moses?

3362
03:39:26,800 --> 03:39:32,000
Right?
So here's another, he goes on to

3363
03:39:32,000 --> 03:39:34,400
talk about what defiles a person
because the first thing was

3364
03:39:34,400 --> 03:39:36,600
about eating with unwashed
hands, right?

3365
03:39:36,600 --> 03:39:39,100
And you need to like they say a
prayer, right?

3366
03:39:39,200 --> 03:39:41,200
I'd wash.
There's that actually have this

3367
03:39:41,200 --> 03:39:45,900
like a pitcher with two Hang-Ups
and wash of one hand and then

3368
03:39:45,900 --> 03:39:48,500
the other, you know, and then
you and then you rinse, you

3369
03:39:48,500 --> 03:39:52,200
know, or whatever.
And and when my family

3370
03:39:52,200 --> 03:39:55,900
celebrates Passover to like, and
that's like part of the Seder,

3371
03:39:56,200 --> 03:40:02,000
we do that, right?
We wash our hands, rinse, wash,

3372
03:40:02,100 --> 03:40:06,900
rinse dry.
And but, but again, it's just

3373
03:40:06,900 --> 03:40:10,000
important not to to realize that
there's beautiful things about

3374
03:40:10,000 --> 03:40:12,700
that and Like Jesus Does this at
the Last Supper.

3375
03:40:12,700 --> 03:40:15,500
But he does it to their feet.
Right, let's a towel himself and

3376
03:40:15,500 --> 03:40:17,600
he washes their feet before the
Passover.

3377
03:40:17,600 --> 03:40:20,800
So that's like a beautiful thing
to that's also not a Adamant.

3378
03:40:20,800 --> 03:40:22,500
But Jesus does this beautiful
thing.

3379
03:40:23,000 --> 03:40:26,400
And so anyway, so it's fine to
have beautiful Traditions, but

3380
03:40:26,400 --> 03:40:30,800
when you start saying your
disciples are defiled, because

3381
03:40:30,800 --> 03:40:34,100
they are not keeping the
tradition of the elders, then

3382
03:40:34,100 --> 03:40:37,900
Jesus doesn't doesn't like that,
you know, many hits back a

3383
03:40:37,900 --> 03:40:39,700
little bit, then he hits back.
Yeah, that's right.

3384
03:40:41,600 --> 03:40:46,700
So here's an eye exam and he
called the people to him again

3385
03:40:46,700 --> 03:40:49,600
and said, hear me all you and
understand.

3386
03:40:50,300 --> 03:40:53,700
There is nothing outside a
person that by going into, him

3387
03:40:53,700 --> 03:40:56,200
can defile him.
But the things that come out of

3388
03:40:56,200 --> 03:41:00,000
a person are what defile him.
And when he had entered the

3389
03:41:00,000 --> 03:41:02,700
house and left the people, his
disciples asked him about the

3390
03:41:02,700 --> 03:41:06,100
parable and he said unto them.
Then are you also without

3391
03:41:06,100 --> 03:41:08,300
understanding?
Do you not see that whatever

3392
03:41:08,300 --> 03:41:12,300
goes into a person from outside?
Not defile him since it enters

3393
03:41:12,300 --> 03:41:15,300
not into his heart, but into his
stomach, and then is expelled.

3394
03:41:16,100 --> 03:41:19,600
And he said, what comes out of a
person, is what defiles him for

3395
03:41:19,600 --> 03:41:23,700
within out of the heart of man?
Come evil thoughts, sexual

3396
03:41:23,700 --> 03:41:26,900
immorality theft murder,
adultery coveting, wickedness

3397
03:41:26,900 --> 03:41:33,900
deceit, sensuality Envy, slander
Pride, foolishness So I've heard

3398
03:41:33,900 --> 03:41:39,800
this before and and even there
are some Bibles that will some

3399
03:41:39,800 --> 03:41:41,500
versions that we even add this
in there.

3400
03:41:42,000 --> 03:41:46,300
He read this with Greek eyes and
you and it says Jesus says, all

3401
03:41:46,300 --> 03:41:50,200
foods are clean Right.
Go ahead and eat pork and

3402
03:41:50,200 --> 03:41:56,600
shellfish, and horses, and
snails, and whatever, but like

3403
03:41:56,600 --> 03:42:02,400
that kind of entirely disregards
the context, which is that Jesus

3404
03:42:02,400 --> 03:42:07,700
is talking to a devout group of
Israelites misguided because

3405
03:42:07,700 --> 03:42:10,500
they love the traditions of the
elders, but he's talking to

3406
03:42:10,500 --> 03:42:13,400
Devout Israelites and what do
you think?

3407
03:42:14,300 --> 03:42:19,700
They would say if he says,
Eating swine, eating swine's

3408
03:42:19,700 --> 03:42:23,700
flesh, eating horses.
You know, eating Eagles, like

3409
03:42:23,800 --> 03:42:28,200
none of that will defile.
You getting upset?

3410
03:42:28,200 --> 03:42:33,200
Yeah, that is, that is actually
a clearly a violation of what

3411
03:42:33,200 --> 03:42:36,600
Moses said, write what God Said
through Moses, right?

3412
03:42:37,100 --> 03:42:39,200
Okay.
And and Jesus in another place,

3413
03:42:39,200 --> 03:42:44,700
said anyone who teaches you to
break even the smallest

3414
03:42:44,700 --> 03:42:48,100
commandment Anyone who breaks
the smallest Commandments and

3415
03:42:48,100 --> 03:42:50,900
teaches other people to do that,
they will be the least in the

3416
03:42:50,900 --> 03:42:56,300
kingdom of heaven, right?
Jesus is not telling people and

3417
03:42:56,300 --> 03:43:00,800
also let me see the back even
even if you believed that Jesus

3418
03:43:00,800 --> 03:43:04,100
did away with the law.
You don't believe that he did

3419
03:43:04,100 --> 03:43:06,600
away with the law yet.
Right?

3420
03:43:06,600 --> 03:43:10,400
And so and so if he was, if he
had not yet done the atonement,

3421
03:43:10,900 --> 03:43:13,200
right?
At said, he was like and he was

3422
03:43:13,600 --> 03:43:17,800
encouraging people to break the
kosher dietary laws, he would be

3423
03:43:17,800 --> 03:43:21,000
sent to be a sinner and then his
sacrifice is invalidated because

3424
03:43:21,000 --> 03:43:23,400
he's not a perfect, right,
right, right.

3425
03:43:23,500 --> 03:43:27,900
So, you know by saying, oh Jesus
is saying everything all food is

3426
03:43:27,900 --> 03:43:32,700
clean, like that is, that is, it
would pre guys and entirely

3427
03:43:32,700 --> 03:43:38,500
ignoring the hebraic context.
So I'm going to give you so to

3428
03:43:38,500 --> 03:43:42,600
help kind of you and maybe are
your listeners to understand

3429
03:43:42,600 --> 03:43:44,100
this.
We're going to, I'm going to

3430
03:43:44,100 --> 03:43:46,900
reframe Jesus as a little
Parable here, a little bit.

3431
03:43:47,200 --> 03:43:51,600
So what if Jesus was speaking
with some Mormons and some of

3432
03:43:51,600 --> 03:43:55,700
them were complaining that his
disciples had not washed their

3433
03:43:55,700 --> 03:43:59,300
Temple garment in two days and
that they were defiling the

3434
03:43:59,300 --> 03:44:03,100
Garment and their covenants by
disrespecting the Garvin the

3435
03:44:03,100 --> 03:44:05,700
Garment.
And then Jesus says to them.

3436
03:44:06,100 --> 03:44:09,800
There is no garment on the
outside of a person that by

3437
03:44:09,800 --> 03:44:13,000
wearing can defile him, but
things that come out of a person

3438
03:44:13,000 --> 03:44:15,400
are what defile him.
And when he had entered the

3439
03:44:15,400 --> 03:44:17,800
house and left the people, his
disciples asked him about the

3440
03:44:17,800 --> 03:44:22,000
parable and he said unto them.
Then are you also without

3441
03:44:22,000 --> 03:44:23,800
understanding, do you not see
that?

3442
03:44:23,800 --> 03:44:26,900
Whatever garment, a person wears
on the outside, cannot defile

3443
03:44:26,900 --> 03:44:30,200
him, and he said, what comes out
of a person, is what defiles him

3444
03:44:30,200 --> 03:44:33,300
for, from within out of the
heart of man, come evil

3445
03:44:33,300 --> 03:44:36,500
thoughts, sexual immorality,
theft murder adultery. 03,

3446
03:44:36,700 --> 03:44:40,500
coveting wickedness, deceit,
sensuality Envy, slander Pride

3447
03:44:40,500 --> 03:44:45,000
foolishness.
So now so let's say he was he

3448
03:44:45,000 --> 03:44:48,200
spoke this to this group of
Mormons who know about the

3449
03:44:48,208 --> 03:44:52,000
temple and the Garmin.
And then there's some Christians

3450
03:44:52,300 --> 03:44:54,700
who don't know about those
things and they're reading this

3451
03:44:56,900 --> 03:45:02,700
And you see Jesus say quote,
there is no garment on the

3452
03:45:02,700 --> 03:45:05,200
outside of a person that by
wearing can defile him.

3453
03:45:05,900 --> 03:45:08,600
What are you going to think?
Here's Think Jesus is doing away

3454
03:45:08,600 --> 03:45:12,100
with modesty standards, right?
Right in dress, right?

3455
03:45:12,100 --> 03:45:15,200
Tight revealing promiscuous,
clothing garments, which are

3456
03:45:15,200 --> 03:45:18,600
garments, totally fine.
It's what's on the inside that

3457
03:45:18,600 --> 03:45:22,200
matters, right?
Christians, don't know that.

3458
03:45:22,200 --> 03:45:27,400
When Jesus uses the word garment
that has A unique cultural

3459
03:45:27,400 --> 03:45:30,300
meaning, right?
He's not referring to any old

3460
03:45:30,300 --> 03:45:34,700
clothing that the heathens might
be wearing likewise, when Jesus

3461
03:45:34,700 --> 03:45:39,000
says, Jesus talking about food,
he's not talking about any old

3462
03:45:39,000 --> 03:45:40,900
thing that the heathens might be
here.

3463
03:45:41,000 --> 03:45:44,800
I see what she's talking about.
Things that Israelites are

3464
03:45:44,800 --> 03:45:47,800
eating, right?
You're clean, I get it.

3465
03:45:48,000 --> 03:45:51,300
It's Jesus is not saying
anything you eat is fine.

3466
03:45:51,300 --> 03:45:56,600
He's saying the things that you
do eat Even if it's with

3467
03:45:56,700 --> 03:45:59,700
unwashed hands that does not
defile.

3468
03:45:59,700 --> 03:46:00,800
You gotcha?
No.

3469
03:46:00,800 --> 03:46:02,100
I make sense?
Okay.

3470
03:46:02,100 --> 03:46:04,900
Absolutely so.
But if we look at it with with

3471
03:46:04,900 --> 03:46:07,600
Greek eyes were like, yeah,
Jesus change things.

3472
03:46:07,600 --> 03:46:11,400
And we can eat whatever we can
eat ham for Easter now, because

3473
03:46:11,400 --> 03:46:13,100
Jesus died or whatever.
Yeah, yeah.

3474
03:46:15,200 --> 03:46:18,200
But really got with Hebrew eyes
and understand the context, you

3475
03:46:18,200 --> 03:46:20,800
know, for original lists.
That we realized.

3476
03:46:20,800 --> 03:46:22,600
No, no, that's not what he's
talking about.

3477
03:46:22,700 --> 03:46:26,400
He's talking about just the
Mission of our heart verse right

3478
03:46:26,400 --> 03:46:29,100
versus these verses, the
traditions of the elders.

3479
03:46:29,200 --> 03:46:32,400
Right now that makes Traditions,
the others versus the condition

3480
03:46:32,400 --> 03:46:34,400
of our heart versus what the
Commandments say.

3481
03:46:34,400 --> 03:46:37,200
Like, he's giving a sermon about
how these things relate.

3482
03:46:37,300 --> 03:46:39,500
I got, you know, that makes
perfect sense.

3483
03:46:42,000 --> 03:46:53,600
Okay. so, Yeah, I mentioned this
but I'll read it now you and

3484
03:46:53,600 --> 03:47:01,000
Matthew 5:17 Sermon on the Mount
because it's almost it's almost

3485
03:47:01,000 --> 03:47:04,100
like Jesus could see the future.
Imagine that, huh?

3486
03:47:04,500 --> 03:47:07,000
It's almost like you can see the
future and he knew that people

3487
03:47:07,000 --> 03:47:14,700
would make these accusations.
About the law riding and about

3488
03:47:14,700 --> 03:47:18,400
him teaching people that it
took, you know, saying that it's

3489
03:47:18,400 --> 03:47:21,000
okay to break the law, right?
He knew that people would say

3490
03:47:21,000 --> 03:47:24,300
that.
So in verse Matthew 5:17, he

3491
03:47:24,300 --> 03:47:28,100
says don't think that so I know
what you're going to do.

3492
03:47:28,100 --> 03:47:31,700
But don't think they says think,
not that I am come to destroy

3493
03:47:31,700 --> 03:47:35,300
the law or the prophets.
I am not come to destroy, but to

3494
03:47:35,400 --> 03:47:37,500
fulfill.
Yeah, and there's like there's

3495
03:47:37,500 --> 03:47:39,800
another eye exam in there.
What does Jesus?

3496
03:47:39,900 --> 03:47:43,000
Need to fulfill the law.
Same thing, when he says to

3497
03:47:43,000 --> 03:47:45,800
John, we need to fulfill all
righteousness.

3498
03:47:45,900 --> 03:47:49,400
I can means I've come to do it,
not to do away with it, right?

3499
03:47:49,500 --> 03:47:54,200
Right, for verily, continuing in
Matthew 4, verily.

3500
03:47:54,200 --> 03:47:57,600
I say unto you actually, this is
interesting.

3501
03:47:59,100 --> 03:48:02,600
He says, he actually says right
here, how long, the law will be.

3502
03:48:02,600 --> 03:48:07,600
Enforced, says verily.
I say unto you till Heaven and

3503
03:48:07,600 --> 03:48:13,100
Earth pass away.
Not One jot or tittle shall in

3504
03:48:13,100 --> 03:48:17,200
no wise pass from the law.
Till all be fulfilled, where

3505
03:48:17,300 --> 03:48:20,600
whosoever therefore shall break
one of these least Commandments

3506
03:48:20,900 --> 03:48:23,400
and teach men.
So he shall be called the least

3507
03:48:23,400 --> 03:48:26,200
in the Kingdom of Heaven.
But whosoever shall do and teach

3508
03:48:26,200 --> 03:48:29,300
them the same Shall be Called
great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

3509
03:48:29,800 --> 03:48:33,400
So did Jesus do and teach the
same?

3510
03:48:33,800 --> 03:48:37,000
Yes, he did the Commandments and
taught them.

3511
03:48:37,300 --> 03:48:39,700
He's an and he did them
actually.

3512
03:48:41,500 --> 03:48:44,500
Better than anyone, right?
So he will be by his own words,

3513
03:48:44,600 --> 03:48:46,000
the greatest in the Kingdom of
Heaven.

3514
03:48:46,500 --> 03:48:54,500
Gotcha.
So So not till so one.

3515
03:48:54,500 --> 03:48:59,400
Jot jot or tittle, jot is the
smallest Hebrew letter, that's

3516
03:48:59,400 --> 03:49:05,300
the right geode and Tittle is a
little it's like like the dot on

3517
03:49:05,300 --> 03:49:08,500
an eye or the the cross on an F
or something like that.

3518
03:49:08,500 --> 03:49:16,200
It's like some little Mark that
distinguishes between between a

3519
03:49:16,200 --> 03:49:19,800
adalat and a rash in Hebrew,
alphabet?

3520
03:49:19,808 --> 03:49:21,800
Right Deanne?
And are they look very similar,

3521
03:49:21,900 --> 03:49:26,300
A little bit that the dollop has
a as a tittle has a little tail

3522
03:49:26,300 --> 03:49:30,600
on it and the rash does not.
So so you're saying not even one

3523
03:49:30,600 --> 03:49:35,600
letter from what was written
will be changed, or done away

3524
03:49:35,900 --> 03:49:38,600
until Heaven and Earth pass
away.

3525
03:49:38,800 --> 03:49:41,500
So he's basically sent in the
bounds that there is no out on

3526
03:49:41,500 --> 03:49:44,600
this right there.
These, these things are in

3527
03:49:44,600 --> 03:49:46,900
force.
Yeah, yeah.

3528
03:49:47,300 --> 03:49:55,300
Now It's actually interesting,
also, in The Sermon on the

3529
03:49:55,300 --> 03:50:00,800
Mount, he warns about false
prophets who come to you as

3530
03:50:01,100 --> 03:50:04,400
wolves, like, wolves in sheep's
clothing says, beware of false

3531
03:50:04,400 --> 03:50:07,600
prophets, which come to you in
sheep's clothing, but inwardly.

3532
03:50:07,600 --> 03:50:15,100
They are ravening wolves.
Yeah, now, there's a This goes

3533
03:50:15,100 --> 03:50:19,100
along with the harmonization of
the scriptures and that things

3534
03:50:19,100 --> 03:50:21,800
that come later have to
harmonize with what came before.

3535
03:50:21,800 --> 03:50:26,000
So that goes with like ideas and
definitions of things too.

3536
03:50:26,500 --> 03:50:30,100
And there's there's a principle
which is useful.

3537
03:50:30,600 --> 03:50:35,600
It's called the principle of
first mention And that is like

3538
03:50:35,600 --> 03:50:41,100
when the scriptures use a term.
Usually if you want to know what

3539
03:50:41,100 --> 03:50:45,300
that means, like you go back and
look at when that term first

3540
03:50:45,500 --> 03:50:49,100
appeared in the scriptures and
go, you know, and that will kind

3541
03:50:49,100 --> 03:50:53,000
of Enlighten you to what the the
later author is talking about.

3542
03:50:53,600 --> 03:50:58,300
Okay, so wolves, in fact,
ravening wolves.

3543
03:50:58,300 --> 03:51:01,600
Even like the first time that
two mentioned is in Ezekiel

3544
03:51:01,600 --> 03:51:04,300
actually.
Jesus is quoting from Ezekiel.

3545
03:51:05,300 --> 03:51:07,900
So so you want to know what
false prophets are.

3546
03:51:09,000 --> 03:51:19,000
Go to Ezekiel 22 verse 23
through 28, Ezekiel says and the

3547
03:51:19,000 --> 03:51:24,700
word of the Lord came unto me
saying, there is a conspiracy of

3548
03:51:24,700 --> 03:51:28,600
her profits in the midst.
Thereof like a roaring lion,

3549
03:51:28,600 --> 03:51:31,400
ravening the Plitt, the prey,
they have devoured Souls, they

3550
03:51:31,400 --> 03:51:33,900
have taken the treasure and the
precious things.

3551
03:51:34,500 --> 03:51:37,100
And they have made her many
widows in the midst thereof.

3552
03:51:37,100 --> 03:51:39,000
Her priests have violated my
law.

3553
03:51:39,300 --> 03:51:41,600
They have profaned my holy
things, they have put no

3554
03:51:41,600 --> 03:51:43,900
difference between the holy and
the profane neither have.

3555
03:51:43,900 --> 03:51:45,900
They showed difference between
clean and unclean.

3556
03:51:46,500 --> 03:51:49,400
They have shut their eyes from
keeping my Sabbath's so Diane

3557
03:51:49,400 --> 03:51:51,900
profaned among them.
Her Prince's in the midst.

3558
03:51:51,900 --> 03:51:55,800
Thereof are like wolves ravening
the prey to shed blood and to

3559
03:51:55,800 --> 03:51:59,700
destroy souls, to get dishonest
gain and her prophets have white

3560
03:51:59,700 --> 03:52:04,400
wash these Deeds for them with a
false vision and divining lies

3561
03:52:04,500 --> 03:52:08,000
unto them saying thus, saith the
Lord God when the Lord hath not

3562
03:52:08,000 --> 03:52:14,400
spoken, so he says, you know,
conspiracy between the prophets,

3563
03:52:14,400 --> 03:52:20,200
the priests and the princes,
and, you know, the Roaring Lion

3564
03:52:20,200 --> 03:52:25,700
ravening and the Wolf ravening
says, they they abuse widows,

3565
03:52:26,600 --> 03:52:29,700
you know, they're thieves and
they also have violated my law

3566
03:52:29,700 --> 03:52:33,000
and not taught people, what the
difference between clean and

3567
03:52:33,000 --> 03:52:36,800
unclean and, and have a disc in
your have disregarded, the

3568
03:52:36,800 --> 03:52:42,000
Sabbath switch, the feasts are
among the Sabbath's So those

3569
03:52:42,000 --> 03:52:44,200
are, those are the false
prophets that Jesus says, beware

3570
03:52:44,200 --> 03:52:48,700
of trying to find something in
the teachings of the prophets of

3571
03:52:48,700 --> 03:52:51,800
the teachings of the Prophet
Joseph Smith and I'll I'll find

3572
03:52:51,800 --> 03:52:54,900
it and I'll put it on the
website.

3573
03:52:55,000 --> 03:53:02,100
But Joseph Smith actually says
look if a prophet Contends

3574
03:53:02,100 --> 03:53:06,100
against or tries to change
something that former Prophet

3575
03:53:06,100 --> 03:53:08,500
said, some Mark of a false
prophet.

3576
03:53:08,600 --> 03:53:12,700
That's right.
And I think that, that is a very

3577
03:53:12,700 --> 03:53:16,500
useful standard, not just in
this discussion, but in all

3578
03:53:16,500 --> 03:53:19,800
things and looking and saying,
does this man who claims to be a

3579
03:53:19,800 --> 03:53:23,700
prophet?
Is he able to measure up to

3580
03:53:23,700 --> 03:53:26,500
this?
Because if he takes away, or

3581
03:53:27,500 --> 03:53:32,100
does away with anything that is
contrary It is forever.

3582
03:53:32,900 --> 03:53:35,400
Yeah, yeah.
That's that's a dead giveaway.

3583
03:53:35,400 --> 03:53:38,300
Yeah.
That is a, as an axiom, right?

3584
03:53:38,300 --> 03:53:41,000
Yep.
Things must harmonize with what

3585
03:53:41,000 --> 03:53:46,700
was going previously.
So, fluently, okay, I'm almost

3586
03:53:46,700 --> 03:53:48,700
done with my notes, although we
could talk longer.

3587
03:53:48,800 --> 03:53:56,000
But no, you're good.
Now I'm going to talk now about

3588
03:53:56,000 --> 03:53:57,500
the big lie.
Okay.

3589
03:53:57,600 --> 03:54:08,600
Okay, the big lie and this is In
large part, why Jews at least

3590
03:54:08,600 --> 03:54:11,100
one big factor?
Why Jews have not accepted Jesus

3591
03:54:11,100 --> 03:54:16,100
as Messiah?
And that is this idea that the

3592
03:54:16,100 --> 03:54:22,400
law was doing.
Because you know that was they

3593
03:54:22,400 --> 03:54:25,700
were commanded to keep the law
forever throughout their

3594
03:54:25,700 --> 03:54:29,400
generations.
And then these guys come along

3595
03:54:29,400 --> 03:54:32,700
and say actually you know that
whole Covenant thing that God

3596
03:54:32,700 --> 03:54:36,800
made with you and your ancestors
to do this forever, like you can

3597
03:54:36,800 --> 03:54:40,800
still be part of the Covenant
without having to do without

3598
03:54:40,800 --> 03:54:44,000
having to keep the terms of the
Covenant and that just sounds

3599
03:54:44,000 --> 03:54:48,300
crazy.
And it is so okay.

3600
03:54:52,500 --> 03:54:56,300
So I'm we'll talk.
We'll talk about Stephen first.

3601
03:54:57,300 --> 03:55:02,500
So, of course.
Stephen was stoned, right?

3602
03:55:04,500 --> 03:55:06,900
I mean, have you.
I mean have you go for me to

3603
03:55:07,500 --> 03:55:12,100
Acts chapter 6?
Do you know what charge they

3604
03:55:12,100 --> 03:55:16,800
stoned him on?
I do not not so top of my head

3605
03:55:16,800 --> 03:55:20,900
you'll find it there Acts
chapter 6, verse?

3606
03:55:22,200 --> 03:55:31,300
Let's see. 10 through 14.
Okay and they were not able to

3607
03:55:31,300 --> 03:55:34,400
resist the wisdom and the Spirit
by which he spake.

3608
03:55:35,500 --> 03:55:41,500
Then the Civil War and suborning
suborn Men, which said, we have

3609
03:55:41,500 --> 03:55:44,500
heard him speak Blasphemous
words against Moses and against

3610
03:55:44,500 --> 03:55:48,300
God and they stirred up the
people and the elders and the

3611
03:55:48,300 --> 03:55:53,400
scribes and came up, Came Upon
him and caught him and brought

3612
03:55:53,400 --> 03:55:57,400
him to the council and set up
set up false Witnesses.

3613
03:55:57,400 --> 03:56:02,000
Which said this man ceaseth
ceaseth not to speak Blasphemous

3614
03:56:02,000 --> 03:56:04,500
words against the holy place and
the law.

3615
03:56:05,300 --> 03:56:09,000
We have heard him say that Jesus
of Nazareth, shall destroy this

3616
03:56:09,000 --> 03:56:12,600
place and shall charge the
Customs change.

3617
03:56:12,700 --> 03:56:16,100
Excuse me, change the Customs,
which Moses delivered us.

3618
03:56:16,200 --> 03:56:18,700
Okay.
So Sabor keep that open, let's

3619
03:56:18,700 --> 03:56:21,100
talk about a couple things so it
says they suborned men.

3620
03:56:21,700 --> 03:56:27,900
So, that is a legal term.
That means to bribe or compel

3621
03:56:28,100 --> 03:56:33,000
someone to commit a crime, like
secretly like to commit perjury.

3622
03:56:33,000 --> 03:56:38,000
Okay, so they basically the
bride. these men to be false

3623
03:56:38,000 --> 03:56:45,100
witness that it says
specifically Verse 13, says

3624
03:56:45,100 --> 03:56:49,800
specifically, Luke, Luke who's
the author of Acts says, these

3625
03:56:49,800 --> 03:56:53,800
were false Witnesses, and what
did they testify that?

3626
03:56:53,800 --> 03:57:02,000
Stephen, and Jesus.
So we have heard him say that

3627
03:57:02,000 --> 03:57:04,600
Jesus of Nazareth, shall destroy
this place Lucy.

3628
03:57:04,800 --> 03:57:10,400
He speaks he sees verse 13.
Ceaseth not to speak Blasphemous

3629
03:57:10,400 --> 03:57:13,400
words against his holy place and
the law, right?

3630
03:57:13,400 --> 03:57:17,800
And we've heard him say that
Jesus will change the Customs,

3631
03:57:18,000 --> 03:57:21,800
which Moses delivered to us.
And Luke, specifically tells us

3632
03:57:22,000 --> 03:57:24,700
these were false witnesses.
That was a lie.

3633
03:57:25,200 --> 03:57:30,400
Steven never said that.
And Jesus never said that, but

3634
03:57:30,400 --> 03:57:33,800
that is the charge that they
state, that they upon which they

3635
03:57:33,800 --> 03:57:37,100
stoned him.
Was that he said the law would

3636
03:57:37,100 --> 03:57:40,000
be done away or be changed,
right?

3637
03:57:40,100 --> 03:57:44,300
Okay.
So why did they Stone him?

3638
03:57:45,600 --> 03:57:52,300
Well that goes to Deuteronomy
chapter 13, which says this

3639
03:57:52,400 --> 03:57:56,600
paraphrase this it's basically
one of the tests for you can

3640
03:57:56,600 --> 03:57:59,500
turn there if you like Like one
of the tests for a true prophet

3641
03:58:00,100 --> 03:58:02,500
and this goes to what Jesus said
about false prophets.

3642
03:58:03,200 --> 03:58:09,800
But in Deuteronomy 13 it says,
even if there's a prophet who

3643
03:58:09,800 --> 03:58:15,700
comes to you and works miracles,
Yeah, does wonders tells the

3644
03:58:15,700 --> 03:58:20,900
future talks about visions and
dreams, they've had, but if even

3645
03:58:20,900 --> 03:58:25,800
if they do Miracles and then
they tell you, let's worship a

3646
03:58:25,808 --> 03:58:29,700
different God, or they turn you
away from the Commandments and

3647
03:58:29,700 --> 03:58:31,600
say, let's worship God in a
different way.

3648
03:58:33,400 --> 03:58:35,400
Then they are guilty of
blasphemy.

3649
03:58:35,500 --> 03:58:39,000
And I am doing this to test you
to see if you will be faithful.

3650
03:58:40,900 --> 03:58:44,200
So this is, this is like, I
mean, this is, this is a

3651
03:58:44,200 --> 03:58:48,700
marriage, you know, right?
Israel is the bride, right.

3652
03:58:49,100 --> 03:58:52,600
The Lord is the husband, and
there's other men out there.

3653
03:58:53,500 --> 03:58:56,300
And so he's like, saying, even
if there's another guy who comes

3654
03:58:56,300 --> 03:59:00,000
and he's got bigger biceps or
seems to have, you know, a

3655
03:59:00,008 --> 03:59:04,100
better paying job.
Like I expect you to be faithful

3656
03:59:04,100 --> 03:59:08,900
to me even if right, even if a
prophet comes and they do they

3657
03:59:08,900 --> 03:59:13,500
do something miraculous, right?
But they tell you to not be

3658
03:59:13,500 --> 03:59:16,100
faithful to me.
You will know that they are

3659
03:59:16,100 --> 03:59:17,400
false problem.
Right?

3660
03:59:17,600 --> 03:59:23,100
And so so but then Christianity
comes along and tells Judaism.

3661
03:59:24,000 --> 03:59:27,600
Hey, we got this guy.
He did all these Miracles and

3662
03:59:27,600 --> 03:59:31,500
guess what?
He said, you don't need to be

3663
03:59:31,500 --> 03:59:33,200
faithful.
In the way that God has

3664
03:59:33,200 --> 03:59:38,000
commanded your ancestor to be
faithful anymore and but in

3665
03:59:38,000 --> 03:59:42,500
Deuteronomy 13 it says no.
This is a test and it might be

3666
03:59:42,600 --> 03:59:45,300
ruffle some feathers.
But I'll say that the way that

3667
03:59:45,300 --> 03:59:53,300
Christianity is presented Jewish
people are being obedient to God

3668
03:59:53,300 --> 03:59:58,400
in rejecting it because sure I
can see that.

3669
03:59:58,400 --> 04:00:03,200
Yeah so so that was a that was a
lie.

3670
04:00:03,200 --> 04:00:06,000
Luke says it was a lie.
What they said they stoned him

3671
04:00:06,008 --> 04:00:12,600
anyway and this now this is
really ironic because because

3672
04:00:12,600 --> 04:00:14,600
Paul was involved directly.
Hmm?

3673
04:00:14,700 --> 04:00:18,200
Right.
And usually when when people and

3674
04:00:18,200 --> 04:00:22,100
there's been books written about
Out this about how Paul like

3675
04:00:22,100 --> 04:00:27,700
changed Christianity.
From being sect of Judaism to

3676
04:00:28,200 --> 04:00:34,500
the anti-semitic, anti-law
religion that it is now, right?

3677
04:00:34,500 --> 04:00:38,100
And that Paul is really the one
who said, you know, the law is

3678
04:00:38,100 --> 04:00:40,400
done away.
He's the one who kind of

3679
04:00:40,400 --> 04:00:43,700
proclaimed the sure.
And so, this is really, this is

3680
04:00:43,700 --> 04:00:48,800
really ironic because that what
Luke says is that is the what

3681
04:00:48,800 --> 04:00:52,000
they suborn, the false witness
has to say about Steven, and

3682
04:00:52,000 --> 04:00:54,400
about Jesus.
And this is getting said about

3683
04:00:54,400 --> 04:00:58,600
Paul.
So let me ask you this if I'm

3684
04:00:58,600 --> 04:01:01,500
understand is I'm trying to
understand here so are you

3685
04:01:01,500 --> 04:01:05,400
making the assertion that Paul
wasn't really an apostle?

3686
04:01:05,400 --> 04:01:08,100
So to speak.
Oh no, no, I believe he was an

3687
04:01:08,100 --> 04:01:14,400
apostle but he did not.
He also did not do away or say

3688
04:01:14,400 --> 04:01:16,400
that the law was done away.
Okay.

3689
04:01:16,400 --> 04:01:20,700
So maybe some of Paul's words
were twisted and misunderstood.

3690
04:01:20,800 --> 04:01:29,800
Yeah, actually When you read the
scriptures, like the scriptures

3691
04:01:29,800 --> 04:01:33,400
will quote, other like up with
certain profit, will quote

3692
04:01:33,400 --> 04:01:37,200
another prophets all the time.
So we have that.

3693
04:01:37,200 --> 04:01:40,400
We have some sometimes an author
of scripture will even like

3694
04:01:40,400 --> 04:01:45,400
recommend something else.
Sure Malachi says, Jesus did it.

3695
04:01:45,400 --> 04:01:49,000
Yeah, Jesus says, read Isaiah
and read the other prophets and

3696
04:01:49,100 --> 04:01:56,600
Malachi says remember what Moses
did and but so, Authors, they'll

3697
04:01:56,600 --> 04:02:00,200
quote one another and recommend
one another, but Paul is the

3698
04:02:00,200 --> 04:02:04,500
only author that another author
actually gives a warning about,

3699
04:02:05,600 --> 04:02:12,000
okay, so this is in second Peter
so it's going to go to Second

3700
04:02:12,000 --> 04:02:28,500
heater there.
Okay.

3701
04:02:28,500 --> 04:02:42,800
Second Peter 3 Peters talking
about the second coming verse

3702
04:02:42,800 --> 04:02:47,800
14, there says wherefore beloved
seeing that you look forward for

3703
04:02:47,800 --> 04:02:49,700
such things.
Be diligent that you may be

3704
04:02:49,700 --> 04:02:53,700
found of him in peace without
spot and blameless talking about

3705
04:02:53,800 --> 04:03:00,600
when the Lord comes again.
And then he says, in verse 15

3706
04:03:01,900 --> 04:03:04,500
and account that the
long-suffering of Our Lord is

3707
04:03:04,500 --> 04:03:10,300
salvation.
Even as our beloved brother Paul

3708
04:03:10,600 --> 04:03:14,500
is on page, 1554 sure.
They're okay.

3709
04:03:15,000 --> 04:03:18,000
Even as our I'm in verse 15,
even as our beloved brother,

3710
04:03:18,000 --> 04:03:20,200
Paul.
Also, according to the wisdom,

3711
04:03:20,200 --> 04:03:22,800
given unto him has written unto
you.

3712
04:03:23,800 --> 04:03:29,300
As also in his Epistles, So in,
in his writings, he's also

3713
04:03:29,300 --> 04:03:34,400
talking about these things
speaking in them of things in

3714
04:03:34,400 --> 04:03:40,000
which are some things hard to be
understood, which they that are

3715
04:03:40,000 --> 04:03:44,300
unlearned and unstable wrest as
they do, the other scriptures

3716
04:03:44,300 --> 04:03:48,400
unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore beloved seeing ye

3717
04:03:48,600 --> 04:03:51,200
the, you know these things
before, in other words, I'm

3718
04:03:51,200 --> 04:03:53,500
warning you about reading.
I'm warning, you about reading

3719
04:03:53,500 --> 04:03:56,600
the letters of Paul because they
have things that are To

3720
04:03:56,600 --> 04:04:01,800
understand and things that are
rested and twisted.

3721
04:04:02,100 --> 04:04:05,600
So but in verse 17 seeing that,
you know, these things

3722
04:04:05,600 --> 04:04:10,400
beforehand, beware lest, ye also
being led away with the error of

3723
04:04:10,400 --> 04:04:13,600
the wicked fall from your own
steadfastness.

3724
04:04:13,900 --> 04:04:24,900
Wow.
Now, the error, the in, In the

3725
04:04:24,900 --> 04:04:31,600
word there for Wicked is, I
don't have a greeter in front of

3726
04:04:31,608 --> 04:04:35,100
me but it is, it is translated
in other places in other

3727
04:04:35,100 --> 04:04:40,200
versions as lawlessness.
So he says in Paul, there are

3728
04:04:40,200 --> 04:04:41,900
things that are hard to be
understood.

3729
04:04:42,400 --> 04:04:46,300
I'm some people twist them and
I'm warning you ahead of time.

3730
04:04:46,300 --> 04:04:50,400
When you read the letters of
Paul don't don't get trapped in

3731
04:04:50,400 --> 04:04:57,400
the error of lawlessness.
And fall from your own

3732
04:04:57,400 --> 04:05:02,700
steadfastness, -2 to the word
now.

3733
04:05:03,500 --> 04:05:10,400
So, so Paul Paul is actually
accused of this all the time and

3734
04:05:10,400 --> 04:05:14,100
he knows that he's accused of
this, but he has his very when

3735
04:05:14,100 --> 04:05:18,300
you read the letters of Paul, he
almost seems Like multiple

3736
04:05:18,300 --> 04:05:20,900
personalities sometimes because
he's going back and forth

3737
04:05:20,900 --> 04:05:23,900
between like, what?
Good is the law.

3738
04:05:24,100 --> 04:05:25,700
Nothing at all.
Like, it's by Grace.

3739
04:05:25,800 --> 04:05:26,900
Yeah.
Does that mean?

3740
04:05:26,900 --> 04:05:29,500
But then he's like, does that
mean that we get rid of the law?

3741
04:05:29,700 --> 04:05:31,300
No way.
We keep the law, you know?

3742
04:05:31,300 --> 04:05:35,500
Right.
And so he has this is very fine

3743
04:05:35,500 --> 04:05:42,200
line that he's drawing between.
Trying to get people to

3744
04:05:42,200 --> 04:05:44,600
understand that, the law does
not save them.

3745
04:05:45,200 --> 04:05:50,900
That that is Messiahs job, which
is true, and on one hand, and on

3746
04:05:50,900 --> 04:05:54,900
the other hand, saying that the
Torah, the law is still

3747
04:05:54,900 --> 04:05:58,500
applicable and good, and we will
be blessed if we keep this.

3748
04:05:59,100 --> 04:06:03,000
But that's not what saved us.
You know, Jesus is what saves us

3749
04:06:03,500 --> 04:06:08,900
but still these things are still
these things are expected of us

3750
04:06:08,900 --> 04:06:12,900
and we will be blessed if we, if
we walk in in this way.

3751
04:06:13,400 --> 04:06:19,800
Gotcha, so so read just one.
One thing to maybe two things.

3752
04:06:20,300 --> 04:06:22,900
Well, we'll do one thing in
Acts.

3753
04:06:28,600 --> 04:06:39,600
Acts chapter. 21.
Okay, let's see, ya 21.

3754
04:06:51,300 --> 04:06:52,800
Let's see.
Verse 18.

3755
04:06:54,600 --> 04:06:59,500
Okay, so now Paul Paul has just
been on one of his missions, and

3756
04:06:59,500 --> 04:07:06,600
he's coming back to Jerusalem to
report, and starting Verse 18.

3757
04:07:06,900 --> 04:07:10,700
And the day following Paul went
in with us on to James and all

3758
04:07:10,700 --> 04:07:13,600
the elders were present.
And when he had saluted them and

3759
04:07:13,600 --> 04:07:16,500
declared particularly what
things God had wrought among the

3760
04:07:16,500 --> 04:07:20,400
Gentiles by his ministry.
And when they heard it, they

3761
04:07:20,400 --> 04:07:24,900
glorify the Lord and said unto
him said unto him, thou See us

3762
04:07:24,900 --> 04:07:28,400
brother, how many thousands of
Jews there are, which believe

3763
04:07:28,400 --> 04:07:30,100
and they're all zealous for the
law.

3764
04:07:31,200 --> 04:07:33,600
Okay, so it's like there's a
bunch of bunch of converts here

3765
04:07:34,000 --> 04:07:38,100
and they are zealous like they
love the law and and think of

3766
04:07:38,100 --> 04:07:42,300
the law, the same way that we do
actually they you know, James

3767
04:07:42,300 --> 04:07:44,900
and all the apostles they were
all Jews and they loved the law

3768
04:07:45,300 --> 04:07:49,000
to they felt like what the
psalmist said that this is the

3769
04:07:49,000 --> 04:07:50,600
laws.
Sweet.

3770
04:07:50,700 --> 04:07:53,900
Delicious, good and righteous
and better than gold.

3771
04:07:56,300 --> 04:08:00,200
So says you see all these
thousands of Jews which believed

3772
04:08:00,200 --> 04:08:03,900
and there's Ellis for the law in
verse 21 and they are informed

3773
04:08:04,000 --> 04:08:09,200
of their informed of the or
about thee that thou teach us

3774
04:08:09,600 --> 04:08:11,900
all the Jews which are among the
Gentiles to forsake.

3775
04:08:11,900 --> 04:08:15,300
Moses saying that they ought not
circumcise the children and

3776
04:08:15,300 --> 04:08:17,100
neither to walk after the
Customs.

3777
04:08:17,800 --> 04:08:20,300
What is it?
Therefore, the multitude must

3778
04:08:20,300 --> 04:08:23,000
needs come together for.
They will hear that that your

3779
04:08:23,000 --> 04:08:26,800
come to Jerusalem.
Do therefore, this they have a

3780
04:08:26,808 --> 04:08:29,200
plan there.
Like, word has been getting

3781
04:08:29,200 --> 04:08:32,600
around this lie, that was told
about Stephen, with these false

3782
04:08:32,600 --> 04:08:35,900
Witnesses, has been getting
around around about Paul as

3783
04:08:35,900 --> 04:08:38,500
well.
And so they come up with a plan.

3784
04:08:38,900 --> 04:08:42,900
This is what we're going to do
to show everyone that this lie

3785
04:08:42,900 --> 04:08:46,800
is not true.
That yes, it is a change in the

3786
04:08:46,800 --> 04:08:51,300
way that we have to think.
Because we've been focusing on

3787
04:08:51,300 --> 04:08:55,100
the law, the law, the law.
And now Messiah has come and we

3788
04:08:55,100 --> 04:08:58,700
need to realize that salvation
is in him, and not in the log on

3789
04:08:58,700 --> 04:09:01,300
the law, right?
So there is this shift and it's

3790
04:09:01,300 --> 04:09:05,200
not what we were expecting and
and, and Jesus didn't conquer

3791
04:09:05,200 --> 04:09:08,700
the Romans and so, but he
fulfilled these other

3792
04:09:08,700 --> 04:09:10,600
prophecies, you know?
And so there definitely is a

3793
04:09:10,608 --> 04:09:12,900
shift in thinking but what
doesn't mean that we're

3794
04:09:12,900 --> 04:09:16,000
abandoning the scriptures we
just we understand them a little

3795
04:09:16,000 --> 04:09:19,600
differently.
But word is getting around that

3796
04:09:19,900 --> 04:09:25,500
Paul that you're telling people
to, to avoid to abandon the law

3797
04:09:25,500 --> 04:09:28,500
to forsake.
Moses says not to circumcise and

3798
04:09:28,500 --> 04:09:32,300
not Walker after the Customs.
So, verse 23, this is their

3799
04:09:32,300 --> 04:09:36,600
plan.
Do therefore this that we say to

3800
04:09:36,600 --> 04:09:39,600
thee, we have four men which
have a value on them.

3801
04:09:39,600 --> 04:09:42,800
So these are these are men who
have taken a Nazarite vow, okay,

3802
04:09:43,000 --> 04:09:44,900
okay.
And you do this nazirite vow and

3803
04:09:44,900 --> 04:09:47,700
then you don't cut your hair
like Samson.

3804
04:09:47,700 --> 04:09:50,400
That's right.
And then when your vow is

3805
04:09:50,400 --> 04:09:53,700
completed, then you're supposed
to go to the temple and offer

3806
04:09:53,700 --> 04:09:57,000
offerings and like, and this
will complete your vow.

3807
04:09:57,000 --> 04:10:01,600
This is like an this is You
know, this is, you know,

3808
04:10:01,600 --> 04:10:03,300
intimately connected with the
law of Moses.

3809
04:10:03,800 --> 04:10:07,200
So he says, we have four men,
which have a vow on them, take

3810
04:10:07,200 --> 04:10:11,600
them and purify thyself with
them and be at charges with

3811
04:10:11,600 --> 04:10:14,900
them, that they may shave their
heads.

3812
04:10:15,200 --> 04:10:18,300
And all may know that those
things whereof, they were

3813
04:10:18,300 --> 04:10:21,700
informed concerning the are
nothing but that, thou thyself

3814
04:10:21,700 --> 04:10:24,500
also walk us toward early and
keep us the law.

3815
04:10:27,300 --> 04:10:31,600
So like do this like well we're
going to have you pay for and

3816
04:10:31,600 --> 04:10:33,700
you be at charges with them, you
are going to pay for their

3817
04:10:33,700 --> 04:10:35,300
offerings.
You're going to take him to the

3818
04:10:35,300 --> 04:10:38,500
temple, everyone's going to
purify themselves, we're going

3819
04:10:38,500 --> 04:10:44,000
to do this public thing so that
everyone knows that the rumors

3820
04:10:44,000 --> 04:10:48,000
that they were informed about
our nothing but that you walk

3821
04:10:48,000 --> 04:10:52,200
orderly and keep the law and and
and also encourage other people

3822
04:10:52,200 --> 04:10:54,800
to keep belong to.
Now, they do that.

3823
04:10:55,100 --> 04:10:59,300
And but the LIE is too strong,
they do that and this is when

3824
04:10:59,300 --> 04:11:02,900
Paul gets arrested because they
go there to the temple.

3825
04:11:02,900 --> 04:11:07,400
There's a big Riot right there
like this man is you know, rise

3826
04:11:07,700 --> 04:11:09,900
blasphemer.
And he's desecrating the holy

3827
04:11:09,900 --> 04:11:12,800
Place.
Paul Zak no no, the Romans, come

3828
04:11:12,800 --> 04:11:18,300
in and Paul's arrested and you
know, it goes from there.

3829
04:11:18,300 --> 04:11:24,200
But but this lie was applied to
Stephen false Witnesses.

3830
04:11:24,900 --> 04:11:28,100
Is flat out here in Acts, we
read about this LIE, there's

3831
04:11:28,100 --> 04:11:33,300
rumor that was about Paul, we
read in Peter, where he warns

3832
04:11:33,600 --> 04:11:36,400
the people who are reading.
Paul's letters says there are

3833
04:11:36,400 --> 04:11:39,200
things that are hard to
understand but don't fall known.

3834
04:11:39,200 --> 04:11:42,300
Don't get pulled into the error
of lawlessness because of the

3835
04:11:42,300 --> 04:11:45,000
things that Paul said, that's
not what he's that's not what

3836
04:11:45,000 --> 04:11:50,400
he's saying.
But you know, his converts were

3837
04:11:50,400 --> 04:11:54,300
Greek.
Right around it, and whatever.

3838
04:11:54,300 --> 04:12:01,300
And and and eventually.
This is part of this is part of

3839
04:12:01,300 --> 04:12:05,800
the Great apostasy at the count,
you know?

3840
04:12:07,400 --> 04:12:10,700
There's all kinds of persecution
of sure the Jews and early

3841
04:12:10,700 --> 04:12:11,800
Christians.
Yep.

3842
04:12:12,300 --> 04:12:16,900
But the Jews in particular and
what happened is the Christians

3843
04:12:17,900 --> 04:12:20,600
who are largely, Gentiles
started to see what was

3844
04:12:20,600 --> 04:12:23,300
happening to the Jews, under the
Roman Authority.

3845
04:12:23,700 --> 04:12:27,800
And said, we are going to
distance ourselves from our

3846
04:12:27,800 --> 04:12:30,600
Jewish brothers and sisters.
So that we can avoid

3847
04:12:30,600 --> 04:12:32,900
persecution.
We're going to, we're going to

3848
04:12:32,900 --> 04:12:35,400
Cave to what the government to
government pressure.

3849
04:12:35,400 --> 04:12:37,100
That's definitely do avoid
persecution.

3850
04:12:37,300 --> 04:12:38,700
Ocean.
Okay?

3851
04:12:38,700 --> 04:12:44,500
And so I so they did that and
then, you know, set a couple

3852
04:12:44,500 --> 04:12:49,200
centuries go by and eventually
like Constantine right as you

3853
04:12:49,200 --> 04:12:52,200
know, we're going to make, who
was a sun, worshipper till the

3854
04:12:52,200 --> 04:12:55,000
day he died.
But he says, we're going to make

3855
04:12:55,300 --> 04:12:57,800
he makes a political move.
Christianity is going to become

3856
04:12:57,800 --> 04:13:01,400
the official religion of the
Roman Empire.

3857
04:13:02,000 --> 04:13:05,200
And they have a they hold the
First Council.

3858
04:13:05,200 --> 04:13:08,600
Yeah, is the Nicene Council.
Like 350.

3859
04:13:08,600 --> 04:13:14,000
Yep. 350 or three 8350.
Anyway, in that Council all of

3860
04:13:14,000 --> 04:13:19,500
the like the Jewish Bishops are
officially like Uninvited.

3861
04:13:20,500 --> 04:13:24,200
They're not having any any
Jewish Representatives, only

3862
04:13:24,400 --> 04:13:27,800
Greek and Roman Bishops and
representatives are allowed.

3863
04:13:28,200 --> 04:13:33,000
And, you know, they come up with
the Nicene Creed, which as a

3864
04:13:33,008 --> 04:13:37,500
Mormon has some problems, but
not that many, I mean, Like the

3865
04:13:37,500 --> 04:13:41,900
Nicene Creed is like the Nicene
Creed is not is like, you know,

3866
04:13:41,900 --> 04:13:45,400
we believe in Jesus, that he
came that he was born of a

3867
04:13:45,400 --> 04:13:50,200
virgin that he was crucified,
Rose 3 and the third day and

3868
04:13:50,200 --> 04:13:54,600
ascended into heaven.
And but the other things that

3869
04:13:54,600 --> 04:13:59,500
are decided at the Nicene
Council are that Christians are

3870
04:13:59,500 --> 04:14:02,600
supposed to have nothing to do
with its or anything Israelite.

3871
04:14:03,000 --> 04:14:07,100
And in fact, we are we want to
have a clean, we fish.

3872
04:14:07,200 --> 04:14:11,900
Really want to have no single
point in common with the Jews,

3873
04:14:12,600 --> 04:14:15,200
right?
So we're going to, we're going

3874
04:14:15,200 --> 04:14:18,800
to keep our Feast differently.
We're going to command everyone.

3875
04:14:19,500 --> 04:14:21,700
Not to observe the sabbath.
Like, you must work on the

3876
04:14:21,700 --> 04:14:25,400
Sabbath.
If you're a Christian, you

3877
04:14:25,400 --> 04:14:30,900
cannot celebrate Passover,
celebrate Easter with Passover,

3878
04:14:31,100 --> 04:14:33,800
and the way the Jews do it,
we're going to have with their

3879
04:14:33,800 --> 04:14:38,200
own way to calculate dates, and
like, Every single thing, like

3880
04:14:38,200 --> 04:14:40,600
we're going to, we're going to
get rid of Hebrew scriptures,

3881
04:14:40,600 --> 04:14:43,700
everything is going to be
written in Greek, it was an

3882
04:14:43,700 --> 04:14:45,600
abandonment of all things,
Jewish.

3883
04:14:45,600 --> 04:14:49,200
Every, every possible thing that
we can come up to make ourselves

3884
04:14:49,200 --> 04:14:54,400
different, that is what the new
Christian Church under other

3885
04:14:54,400 --> 04:14:58,000
Constantine's direction.
That is what we are officially

3886
04:14:58,000 --> 04:15:00,400
going to do as the official
position of the churches.

3887
04:15:00,500 --> 04:15:05,800
We are not Israelite.
Anyway that was in my view that

3888
04:15:05,800 --> 04:15:09,100
was a big Part of the Great
apostasy do it.

3889
04:15:09,100 --> 04:15:10,500
We would have had to have been,
right?

3890
04:15:10,500 --> 04:15:19,100
Because again, if you can, if
you can discredit the, the the

3891
04:15:19,500 --> 04:15:25,400
origins of Jesus's time and
place you can then rewrite it,

3892
04:15:25,400 --> 04:15:28,100
however you want.
It's that best suits you.

3893
04:15:28,100 --> 04:15:31,800
And let's not forget that, that
Constantine's move was a

3894
04:15:31,800 --> 04:15:34,600
political one.
Right there is a certain amount

3895
04:15:34,600 --> 04:15:38,600
of expediency and being
monotheists, my Theistic, right?

3896
04:15:38,800 --> 04:15:41,200
It makes being able much easier
to.

3897
04:15:41,200 --> 04:15:42,700
Yeah.
It's much easier to get

3898
04:15:42,700 --> 04:15:44,700
everybody in under that same
Banner.

3899
04:15:45,300 --> 04:15:51,200
So, no, it absolutely.
Was, was a huge part of the

3900
04:15:51,200 --> 04:15:56,700
Great apostasy.
So let me ask you this, what is

3901
04:15:56,700 --> 04:15:58,000
it?
You have gained.

3902
04:15:59,200 --> 04:16:05,700
As a Mormon.
From going back to these these

3903
04:16:05,700 --> 04:16:11,500
Jewish roots.
Yeah I mean I think there's a

3904
04:16:12,000 --> 04:16:15,400
there's like this richness to
understanding the scriptures for

3905
04:16:15,400 --> 04:16:19,000
one you know.
There's there's all kinds of

3906
04:16:19,600 --> 04:16:24,700
references in in all the
scriptures to things that are

3907
04:16:24,700 --> 04:16:29,600
foundational.
In the Old Testament that if if

3908
04:16:29,600 --> 04:16:35,600
you don't go back to these
roots, you know, right?

3909
04:16:35,700 --> 04:16:40,400
If you don't go back to the
roots then then you don't you

3910
04:16:40,400 --> 04:16:44,300
don't really understand what
you're doing or why or why the

3911
04:16:44,300 --> 04:16:48,800
scriptures are saying this or
that thing and you just I think

3912
04:16:48,800 --> 04:16:53,000
you just miss out there's a lot
of richness there and I have

3913
04:16:53,000 --> 04:16:58,500
felt that it has been a blessing
to me and my family To like the

3914
04:16:58,500 --> 04:17:02,300
feasts in particular are
beautiful things and have this

3915
04:17:02,300 --> 04:17:06,200
like annual cycle where we go
through and reminded of each of

3916
04:17:06,200 --> 04:17:12,700
these times when God blessed our
ancestors and these feasts have

3917
04:17:12,700 --> 04:17:15,800
how they point to towards the
atonement in various ways.

3918
04:17:16,500 --> 04:17:23,700
And it's just, so, just so
fulfilling and meaningful and,

3919
04:17:24,000 --> 04:17:27,400
and tying.
And it's also There's there's

3920
04:17:27,400 --> 04:17:32,000
the advantage I think of tying
yourself to a written standard

3921
04:17:32,300 --> 04:17:36,700
instead of, instead, of going
off and being, you know, let

3922
04:17:36,700 --> 04:17:42,000
about by every wind of doctrine
mean tossed to and fro, right?

3923
04:17:42,000 --> 04:17:47,900
We have, we have Roots.
Have this on the back of the

3924
04:17:47,900 --> 04:17:49,500
book here.
I've looked quotation from

3925
04:17:49,500 --> 04:17:53,900
Jacob, chapter 5, or he says,
the problem part of the problem

3926
04:17:54,100 --> 04:17:58,100
with the vineyard is that the
Branches are outgrowing the

3927
04:17:58,100 --> 04:18:01,800
roots, right?
They become lofty.

3928
04:18:02,800 --> 04:18:09,400
And they they they've gotten
bigger than the roots will allow

3929
04:18:09,400 --> 04:18:11,600
them to.
And, you know, there's a lots of

3930
04:18:11,600 --> 04:18:14,500
ways to interpret Parables and
they don't want to say that.

3931
04:18:14,700 --> 04:18:18,800
And I think all of them are
valid but one one interpretation

3932
04:18:18,800 --> 04:18:24,700
is that the roots of the tree
which is Israel.

3933
04:18:24,800 --> 04:18:25,800
Right.
And Godspeed, right.

3934
04:18:25,800 --> 04:18:28,300
The roots.
The tree are these ancient

3935
04:18:28,300 --> 04:18:33,300
things written in the Torah and
and we do not want to detach

3936
04:18:33,300 --> 04:18:37,900
ourselves from that and and grow
bigger on the, yeah.

3937
04:18:37,900 --> 04:18:39,900
It get too big for our britches,
so to speak.

3938
04:18:39,900 --> 04:18:42,400
Yeah, you can become wild.
That's right.

3939
04:18:44,700 --> 04:18:51,000
Another thing, and this this
kind of goes to my My idea about

3940
04:18:52,600 --> 04:18:55,600
the different branches of
Mormonism like when I was in the

3941
04:18:55,608 --> 04:18:59,800
LDS church, when I would read
the the parable of the vineyard

3942
04:18:59,800 --> 04:19:02,400
and Jacob five.
I thought that the LDS church

3943
04:19:02,400 --> 04:19:05,300
was the whole tree, right?
Yeah.

3944
04:19:05,400 --> 04:19:07,000
Funny how that gets phrase,
didn't it?

3945
04:19:07,000 --> 04:19:11,800
Yeah but the way I look at it
now is that Elias church is a

3946
04:19:11,808 --> 04:19:15,600
branch, it's a big Branch but
it's a branch on the tree and

3947
04:19:15,600 --> 04:19:19,100
there's all these other branches
to But you know what, they all,

3948
04:19:19,100 --> 04:19:23,500
they all share a trunk and Ryan
strength, and so, but, and I

3949
04:19:23,508 --> 04:19:27,500
think that if, if these
different branches, can connect

3950
04:19:27,500 --> 04:19:31,100
themselves to the trunk and The
Roots, which are, which are our

3951
04:19:31,100 --> 04:19:36,300
Israelite Heritage and the
Torah, the written word of God,

3952
04:19:36,500 --> 04:19:42,900
you know, the law, so to speak,
then then they'll bring forth

3953
04:19:42,900 --> 04:19:47,300
good fruit, no matter which
branch there on right, you know.

3954
04:19:47,300 --> 04:19:50,600
And that's the The other thing
that I've come to realize with

3955
04:19:50,800 --> 04:19:55,100
this interpretation of the
parable is that it's not the job

3956
04:19:55,100 --> 04:20:00,200
of the branches to declare
whether the fruit on another

3957
04:20:00,200 --> 04:20:02,100
Branch or even on their own
Branch.

3958
04:20:02,500 --> 04:20:05,700
Like the branches, don't declare
whether the fruit is good or

3959
04:20:05,700 --> 04:20:07,500
not.
That is the Lord of The

3960
04:20:07,500 --> 04:20:09,300
Vineyard.
He's the one that comes and

3961
04:20:09,300 --> 04:20:13,600
looks at each branch and
declares, right?

3962
04:20:13,600 --> 04:20:16,800
This is good fruit.
This is worth saving or this is

3963
04:20:16,800 --> 04:20:19,600
bad fruit.
Out, fruit disconnected from The

3964
04:20:19,600 --> 04:20:21,800
Roots.
I'm gonna yeah, it's going to be

3965
04:20:21,800 --> 04:20:26,000
burned, right?
So so I think it's fine to you,

3966
04:20:26,100 --> 04:20:29,300
let everyone grow on whatever
part of the tree, they've been

3967
04:20:29,700 --> 04:20:35,600
grafted into or plant it on.
And that's how you know that's

3968
04:20:35,600 --> 04:20:37,500
another in.
This is just another part of my

3969
04:20:37,500 --> 04:20:43,000
world view now is You know, I
knew from the time I was a

3970
04:20:43,008 --> 04:20:45,800
child, you know, like we read
the book of Mormon in Psych in

3971
04:20:45,800 --> 04:20:48,400
the on the title page.
It says this is for the Jews,

3972
04:20:48,700 --> 04:20:50,600
right, right.
And the Gentiles and the lame

3973
04:20:50,600 --> 04:20:57,200
things and and I think about the
Jews and you know we want we

3974
04:20:57,200 --> 04:21:01,300
want to get them to join the
church but the scriptures don't

3975
04:21:01,300 --> 04:21:03,700
really say that.
Like the scriptures say it's

3976
04:21:03,700 --> 04:21:05,600
actually the other way around.
Yeah.

3977
04:21:05,900 --> 04:21:08,300
The church.
The Gentiles need to be grafted

3978
04:21:08,300 --> 04:21:12,200
into Israel and not Israel
grafted into the church.

3979
04:21:13,800 --> 04:21:18,300
So that's I think important to
remember too that we are Whether

3980
04:21:18,800 --> 04:21:24,700
you know whether by lineage or
by adoption, we want to be

3981
04:21:24,700 --> 04:21:29,800
grafted into Israel.
And we want to be Israelites, we

3982
04:21:29,800 --> 04:21:32,500
want to do the things that the
god of Abraham, Isaac, and

3983
04:21:32,500 --> 04:21:35,400
Jacob, the god of Israel has
commanded us.

3984
04:21:36,000 --> 04:21:40,500
And, you know, it's that can be
kind of overwhelming sometimes.

3985
04:21:40,500 --> 04:21:43,800
And and I will say one other
thing too.

3986
04:21:44,300 --> 04:21:45,900
And this is not exactly
answering your question.

3987
04:21:45,900 --> 04:21:51,300
But But it took me a long time
to come to where I am and also

3988
04:21:51,300 --> 04:21:55,900
to kind of incorporate these
different feasts and stuff.

3989
04:21:56,400 --> 04:21:59,000
And it, you know, it took a long
time to give up sausage to, you

3990
04:21:59,000 --> 04:22:04,800
know, but sausage and bacon.
But, you know, there's turkey

3991
04:22:04,800 --> 04:22:06,400
bacon turkey, sausage, that's
really good.

3992
04:22:06,400 --> 04:22:09,600
So, I wasn't really good or
should I just quit?

3993
04:22:10,000 --> 04:22:12,200
No, no, it's good.
Yeah, I don't know.

3994
04:22:12,200 --> 04:22:18,100
I mean, that's up to you, but I
think that, you know, looking at

3995
04:22:18,100 --> 04:22:21,500
it through looking at things
with Hebrew eyes Israelite eyes

3996
04:22:22,000 --> 04:22:24,900
is is a powerful sense of
identity.

3997
04:22:25,400 --> 04:22:27,500
And also there's a powerful
sense for me.

3998
04:22:27,500 --> 04:22:30,100
Anyway, going back to the
lectures on faith.

3999
04:22:30,100 --> 04:22:35,900
There's a powerful sense of the
Third Qualification for having

4000
04:22:35,900 --> 04:22:38,600
faith.
So, if you remember, says, there

4001
04:22:38,600 --> 04:22:43,800
are three things necessary for
any person to exercise faith in

4002
04:22:43,800 --> 04:22:46,600
God, unto life, and salvation
might be a paraphrase here.

4003
04:22:46,700 --> 04:22:53,100
One is the idea that God exists
To correct idea of his character

4004
04:22:53,100 --> 04:22:58,200
and attributes three and
knowledge that, the course of

4005
04:22:58,200 --> 04:23:00,400
life that you're pursuing is in
accordance with his will.

4006
04:23:01,900 --> 04:23:07,600
So you, you you feel like by by
tying yourself back to these

4007
04:23:08,200 --> 04:23:14,200
judeo roots, you feel like
you're that's giving you a clear

4008
04:23:14,200 --> 04:23:16,000
path.
A clear path.

4009
04:23:16,000 --> 04:23:19,400
That's right.
And I'm not worried about I'm

4010
04:23:19,400 --> 04:23:24,300
not worried.
Any more about the decrees and

4011
04:23:24,300 --> 04:23:28,700
whims of men, you know, right?
And whether my you know gosh my

4012
04:23:28,700 --> 04:23:32,200
leader is saying this but I
don't it doesn't seem to match

4013
04:23:32,200 --> 04:23:35,800
and I don't know I guess I'll
just go with the leader you

4014
04:23:35,800 --> 04:23:39,500
know, which is good.
Yeah I mean Lee I don't want to

4015
04:23:39,508 --> 04:23:45,700
have to say anything against
leaders because Because

4016
04:23:45,800 --> 04:23:48,700
hierarchy and Leadership is how
we get things done.

4017
04:23:49,400 --> 04:23:53,000
And, you know, and I'm
independent now.

4018
04:23:53,000 --> 04:23:55,900
So I kind of miss that, to be
honest, some, there's some good

4019
04:23:55,900 --> 04:23:59,300
really good things about
leadership, but there are bad

4020
04:23:59,300 --> 04:24:00,400
things that can come with the
to.

4021
04:24:00,400 --> 04:24:04,000
We've talked about right abuses.
So leadership needs to be

4022
04:24:04,000 --> 04:24:07,900
tethered.
To the word so that it can just

4023
04:24:07,900 --> 04:24:10,500
run free.
I give you a good litmus test,

4024
04:24:10,600 --> 04:24:11,600
right?
All the way around.

4025
04:24:11,700 --> 04:24:14,600
Yes, that's right.
That written law provides a

4026
04:24:14,600 --> 04:24:19,700
litmus test to, which if you
very outside of that.

4027
04:24:19,900 --> 04:24:21,400
Yep.
And and let's face it.

4028
04:24:21,400 --> 04:24:25,400
As far as litmus test goes, the
jail model might be one of the

4029
04:24:25,400 --> 04:24:27,900
best around, right?
I mean, it has survived.

4030
04:24:27,900 --> 04:24:32,800
Yeah, eons and it has been
responsible for the flourishing

4031
04:24:32,800 --> 04:24:34,900
of many civilizations.
Oh, yeah.

4032
04:24:34,900 --> 04:24:37,500
So, As far as a litmus test, I'm
not sure there's a better one

4033
04:24:37,500 --> 04:24:39,100
out there.
Yeah, I do want to say one more

4034
04:24:39,100 --> 04:24:42,800
thing too.
Is that in Mormonism?

4035
04:24:42,800 --> 04:24:46,300
Like we talked about the higher
law, if we kind of mentioned

4036
04:24:46,300 --> 04:24:48,200
this a little bit, the higher
laws and the milk is attack

4037
04:24:48,200 --> 04:24:50,700
things.
And Melchizedek temples and

4038
04:24:50,800 --> 04:24:55,400
nothing that I've said like
should be construed to go

4039
04:24:55,400 --> 04:24:57,200
against any of that in the
least.

4040
04:24:57,500 --> 04:25:04,100
Like I believe that the higher
laws are all good and essential

4041
04:25:04,400 --> 04:25:08,200
things too.
Yeah, but that we know that we

4042
04:25:08,200 --> 04:25:12,100
never graduate from the lower
law, I'd trade it.

4043
04:25:12,200 --> 04:25:16,700
That they are supposed to be
together that the the keys of

4044
04:25:16,708 --> 04:25:22,500
the priesthood consists of new
getting the will of God.

4045
04:25:22,700 --> 04:25:26,600
And in offering sacrifices like
Joseph said, like they just they

4046
04:25:26,600 --> 04:25:33,000
go together and you have to have
because God is God, Is Not only

4047
04:25:33,000 --> 04:25:39,400
interested in Our Salvation as
individuals or maybe even as

4048
04:25:39,400 --> 04:25:42,200
families, like our own
Enlightenment, he wants us to

4049
04:25:42,200 --> 04:25:47,400
have a good Society, right?
And, and having a culture

4050
04:25:47,400 --> 04:25:53,100
Society, a culture, a nation
requires quote, the Lesser law,

4051
04:25:54,000 --> 04:25:57,600
you have to know what to do.
When someone steals, right when

4052
04:25:57,600 --> 04:26:01,400
someone commits murder, and when
there's manslaughter, and when

4053
04:26:01,400 --> 04:26:05,700
someone is lying and there has
to be judges and courts, And

4054
04:26:05,700 --> 04:26:08,500
ideally we would all be
Celestial beings wouldn't need

4055
04:26:08,500 --> 04:26:11,500
that but but we Are Not Angels,
right?

4056
04:26:11,500 --> 04:26:13,300
So we have laws.
Yep.

4057
04:26:13,900 --> 04:26:16,200
And and there's also but then
there's also there's a

4058
04:26:16,200 --> 04:26:22,200
Melchizedek things and ceiling
and endowment and these higher

4059
04:26:22,200 --> 04:26:26,800
principles that are that are
good too, and but I don't

4060
04:26:26,800 --> 04:26:30,000
believe that those should ever
be seen as contradicting.

4061
04:26:30,200 --> 04:26:33,800
Got you, you know, I know that
one is a curse and the other is

4062
04:26:33,800 --> 04:26:35,300
a blessing.
Correct.

4063
04:26:35,800 --> 04:26:41,700
It is true that when Moses came
down with the tablets thing says

4064
04:26:42,000 --> 04:26:46,700
they had, they had the high.
Well, actually says, a lot of

4065
04:26:46,708 --> 04:26:50,000
times when we read it, we think
that it says it had the milk, is

4066
04:26:50,000 --> 04:26:52,600
it except on it?
And then Moses broke it and then

4067
04:26:52,600 --> 04:26:54,200
went up and got the erotic
stuff.

4068
04:26:55,200 --> 04:27:00,800
But if you read carefully, what
it says it actually says that it

4069
04:27:00,800 --> 04:27:03,700
had both ironic and Melchizedek
stuff.

4070
04:27:04,500 --> 04:27:11,900
And he broke it and then God had
him like, rewrite, it everything

4071
04:27:11,900 --> 04:27:17,000
that was on the first.
Same stuff - because it

4072
04:27:17,000 --> 04:27:21,300
extensive, the erotic stuff was
there all along and he was

4073
04:27:21,300 --> 04:27:24,400
intended to be given together
with the milkovic stuff, but

4074
04:27:24,400 --> 04:27:27,500
they were cursed not with the
levitical law.

4075
04:27:28,200 --> 04:27:32,200
They were cursed with the app
being denied the milk hesitant.

4076
04:27:32,200 --> 04:27:32,900
Yeah.
No.

4077
04:27:33,100 --> 04:27:34,300
I understand what you have to
do.

4078
04:27:34,300 --> 04:27:36,300
That makes perfect sense.
Absolutely.

4079
04:27:37,400 --> 04:27:42,800
So let's say someone wanted to
Get an idea of how to do a

4080
04:27:43,000 --> 04:27:45,400
savior.
Yeah, you know, they wanted to

4081
04:27:45,400 --> 04:27:48,400
see the Passover.
They want to know how to keep

4082
04:27:48,400 --> 04:27:50,100
some of these things.
Where do they go?

4083
04:27:50,700 --> 04:27:54,800
They can come to their animal
foundation and how do they find

4084
04:27:54,800 --> 04:27:59,500
you?
You know what, I think that we

4085
04:27:59,500 --> 04:28:08,400
have a page on the fellowship
locator, which is mostly

4086
04:28:10,200 --> 04:28:12,400
Denver's another thing.
So, we have a page on there, so

4087
04:28:12,400 --> 04:28:13,800
we're in Lehi.
Okay.

4088
04:28:13,900 --> 04:28:15,500
So Lehigh is there have no
Foundation.

4089
04:28:15,500 --> 04:28:18,400
You click on the Snuffer, right?
Fellowship?

4090
04:28:18,400 --> 04:28:22,300
Locator or I'll get my phone
number.

4091
04:28:23,400 --> 04:28:28,200
My, it's your call, bro.
But and maybe not well, I think

4092
04:28:28,200 --> 04:28:30,400
that it's actually on there.
So I think there's a Facebook

4093
04:28:30,400 --> 04:28:31,800
page, two of them.
Oh yeah.

4094
04:28:31,800 --> 04:28:34,100
Actually, there is, you know, I
don't have Facebook so I don't,

4095
04:28:34,100 --> 04:28:36,200
you know, track of that there is
a Facebook page, actually,

4096
04:28:36,200 --> 04:28:38,700
that's probably the best.
Okay, so my wife, Melissa, she

4097
04:28:38,700 --> 04:28:41,400
kind of monitors that Fect
Facebook page there and the

4098
04:28:41,400 --> 04:28:44,000
foundation.
Everyone is, welcome to come to

4099
04:28:44,000 --> 04:28:49,600
our feast and come see what we
do and learn how to do it and

4100
04:28:49,600 --> 04:28:53,900
learn why we do it.
And we would we usually get

4101
04:28:53,900 --> 04:28:58,400
pretty good crowd like usually
have 60 or 70 people.

4102
04:28:58,400 --> 04:29:01,500
Nice come to these things from
all kind of branches of

4103
04:29:01,500 --> 04:29:03,800
Mormonism and so it's a good
time.

4104
04:29:04,100 --> 04:29:07,200
So, I got a question for you.
What is the next major feast day

4105
04:29:07,200 --> 04:29:09,600
coming up?
Yeah, that's a good question.

4106
04:29:10,900 --> 04:29:15,300
The next one is going to be a
feast of trumpets and when is

4107
04:29:15,300 --> 04:29:19,100
that, that's going to be in end
of September.

4108
04:29:19,400 --> 04:29:20,500
Okay?
So that's Rosh Hashanah, you

4109
04:29:20,508 --> 04:29:23,100
know, that's around the time.
When, and then shortly after

4110
04:29:23,100 --> 04:29:30,000
that is, You know, actually it's
the might be the towards the end

4111
04:29:30,000 --> 04:29:32,000
of September, beginning of
October, I don't have the date

4112
04:29:32,000 --> 04:29:35,500
right in front of me, but but
we'll post that, you know, on

4113
04:29:35,500 --> 04:29:38,700
the website, like the Facebook
page and whatever, I got a

4114
04:29:38,700 --> 04:29:42,200
question for you.
I would love to have you back

4115
04:29:42,200 --> 04:29:44,900
on, like a week before each
feast day.

4116
04:29:45,500 --> 04:29:48,000
Oh, yeah.
And let's and do like diving to

4117
04:29:48,000 --> 04:29:50,400
the symbolism.
I think of the symbolism of

4118
04:29:50,400 --> 04:29:52,700
what, what's there are you
interested in that at all?

4119
04:29:52,700 --> 04:29:54,600
Yeah, I would be like if I'm
available.

4120
04:29:54,700 --> 04:29:56,100
Yeah, I would try to make myself
a baby.

4121
04:29:56,100 --> 04:29:58,400
Yeah.
I would love that and we can

4122
04:29:58,400 --> 04:30:02,500
dive in and we can kind of talk
about what the symbolism is and

4123
04:30:02,500 --> 04:30:06,100
what it is so that we can get a
real good understanding of

4124
04:30:06,100 --> 04:30:09,100
what's going on.
And then because I think it

4125
04:30:09,100 --> 04:30:12,800
would be a nice primer.
Mainly for me to dive into

4126
04:30:12,800 --> 04:30:16,000
those, and then go see it,
right?

4127
04:30:17,800 --> 04:30:19,500
When you catch those things?
Yeah.

4128
04:30:19,600 --> 04:30:22,900
And then, maybe be able to put
that all together and see what

4129
04:30:22,900 --> 04:30:24,300
it looks like, if your
interests.

4130
04:30:24,300 --> 04:30:26,100
Yeah, I understand you would be
interested in that.

4131
04:30:26,600 --> 04:30:31,400
So but yeah, that if you, if
you'd be up for it I would sure

4132
04:30:31,400 --> 04:30:33,700
like to have you back on Jan
that I love that.

4133
04:30:34,000 --> 04:30:36,200
All right, look forward to that
awesome.

4134
04:30:36,700 --> 04:30:38,000
Is there anything else you want
to go over?

4135
04:30:38,200 --> 04:30:42,000
No, that's more than I intended.
Dad and bro we've been at this

4136
04:30:42,000 --> 04:30:45,000
for four hours and 30 minutes.
Now to record my man, it was

4137
04:30:45,000 --> 04:30:46,000
awesome.
I get this.

4138
04:30:46,000 --> 04:30:48,200
No, it's a good thing.
That's a good thing, I'm glad we

4139
04:30:48,200 --> 04:30:50,400
did it.
So, all right.

4140
04:30:50,400 --> 04:30:53,000
Well Josh again man, I
appreciate you being here.

4141
04:30:53,400 --> 04:30:56,100
So, okay, my pleasure.
All right, folks, go check it

4142
04:30:56,100 --> 04:30:57,800
out.
The zarahemla foundation will

4143
04:30:57,800 --> 04:30:59,100
talk to you next time.
Bye.