Episode #218: The Need For A Restoration PT2-The Ecumenical Councils w/Braxton Bogard

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Round 2 Braxton Round two.
You ready?

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I am so ready.
Let's do it.

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Dude, I got to tell you though,
that that first part of that

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conversation I really enjoyed.
I think sometimes we fail to

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think about restoring people and
I, I felt like that was a really

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good way of of opening the
subject up.

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But now we're on to some juicy
things here, too.

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That's right.
That's exactly right.

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And so, yeah, we're going to
talk about more of the history

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of these things with the
apostasy and the restoration,

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which again, just proves that
throughout history, God's

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trajectory has been restoring
us, restoring us as a people,

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our souls, and this
organizational structure that he

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put in place.
So we're going to talk a little

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bit about that today.
Well, sweet.

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Let's just dive in, bro.
I think we're ready.

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Yeah.
Everybody knows who you are.

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Everybody you know, fairly
familiar with me, much to their

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chagrin.
But it is.

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So we'll, we love you.
We'll go ahead and just kick

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this thing off.
All right, let's do it then.

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So.
So yeah, go ahead.

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Go.
No, no, go ahead, please.

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I was going to say, I, I think
we should like start with

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Christ, right?
He comes, he, he in some ways

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he's a restorer himself, right?
I can't help but think that

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there were things that lost that
he restored.

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He goes through his ministry.
He is, he is killed by, by Rome

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and by Jerusalem.
He then is, is risen and then

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his apostles start.
So let's pick up there.

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What happens?
How does the apostasy come to

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pass?
So in a word, the answer is or

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maybe 2 words. 3 words.
It's complicated, right?

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The the apostasy is a process.
It's not a singular event.

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The the apostasy, it, it, it
builds over time.

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But we do have the foundations
of what's coming right here in

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the scriptural text, the Canon.
So, so Christ establishes his

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church, he gives authority to
it.

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We looked a little bit about
what Christ was planning to do

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prior to the second coming last
week when we looked at that text

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in Mark chapter 13, right?
Christ is going on a long

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journey and he's going to set up
his how he's leaving his house.

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He's going to set up the Porter
to watch or that key holder, the

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person who stands at the door,
who can, you know, seal and bind

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in heaven, and loose in heaven
and on earth, all these things.

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So he sets apart this Kingdom
and he stays with the apostles

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for a period of time and
instructs them after his

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resurrection.
And then finally we get to the

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beginning of the book of Acts
when Christ ascends into the

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heavens and the church is left
in the hands of these 12 men,

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now 11 men who have been tutored
by the by the Son, Jesus Christ

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himself and instructed in all
this doctrine.

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And it's up to them to to figure
out this whole Jesus thing, this

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whole Jesus movement, if you
will, right.

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Christ gives the Commission in
Matthew 26.

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He says you're going to go teach
and make disciples of all

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nations.
You're going to baptize them and

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instruct them in the ways of the
Christian faith.

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And I'm going to be with you
always, even though I can't

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physically be here with you.
I'm going to do that until the

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Peru's here, until the time when
I'm coming back, these end times

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here.
So the young church is not, you

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would think, OK, Christ has just
been here.

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It's all going to be easy
sailing.

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Christ is coming back soon.
And in fact, if you're reading

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the the New Testament, you
probably think, hey, it looks

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like Christ is coming back
pretty quickly.

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That seems to be somewhat of a
thinking about some of the ways

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that people are talking about
Christ.

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So they're prepared and you
would think that it would be all

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good, but it's not.
So the first inklings that we

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have of the apostasy really, in
my view, are beginning in in

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Acts and continuing throughout
the epistles.

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In fact, I would submit that the
epistles are proof that apostasy

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is happening, right.
Whether or not you can use the

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New Testament to justify a great
apostasy, as we would argue is,

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is a question that can be
entertained.

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And I'm willing, you know, to
discuss that with people.

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But the fact is, fact of the
matter is the very idea that

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Peter and Paul and John, these
individuals are having to write

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letters to correct major, major
issues in the early New

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Testament church is evidence
that things aren't perfect,

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right?
Right.

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So there are a lot of errors
going on, right?

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You have individuals sleeping
with the stepmother or something

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like this.
That's an issue that's addressed

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in the Corinthians, all these
different doctrinal issues.

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They're trying to figure out
what's, you know, who God is and

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what, what does it mean now that
we have this Christ figure added

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to the equation?
You know, we've had a faith that

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looked forward to this Messiah
for so long, but what does it

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mean now that he's been here and
come amongst us?

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So they're going to be a number
of errors.

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Now to start out, I want us to
look at a text in the New

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Testament that gets us prepared
for these to look at these

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councils that we're going to be
talking about.

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That is about like the system
that God is putting in place in

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Christ to make sure this this
fuller apostasy doesn't happen.

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So it's in the 4th chapter of
Ephesians.

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Anyone who's a latter day St.
knows this text, but it's it's

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really important.
So we're going to look at it.

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Paul writes to the Ephesians
here.

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He says, I therefore, the
prisoner of the Lord, beseech

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you that you walk worthy of the
vocation, wherewith you are

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called, with all lowliness and
meekness, with long-suffering

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for bearing one another in love,
endeavouring to keep the unity

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of the Spirit in the bond of
peace.

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So First off, right, things are
getting torn apart.

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God's design, as Paul's noting
here, is the unity of the

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Spirit, oneness.
He says there is one body and

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one Spirit, even as year, all
even as year called in one hope

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of your calling, 1 Lord, 1
faith, one baptism, one God and

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Father of all, who is above all
and through all and in you all,

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which we'll note later.
This is a direct contradiction

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to the concept of the Trinity.
But unto everyone of us is given

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grace, according to the measure
of the gift of Christ.

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Wherefore he saith, when He
ascended up on high, He led

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captive, captivity captive, and
gave gifts unto men.

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Now that he ascended, what is it
but that He also had descended

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first into the lower parts of
the earth?

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His journey down to the gates of
hell.

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He that descended is the same
also that ascended up far above

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all heavens, that He might fill
all things.

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That's our Acts chapter 1, where
we see Him going up into the

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heavens.
And He gave some.

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Here's the foundation.
He gave some apostles, and some

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prophets, and some evangelists,
and some pastors and teachers,

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for the perfecting of the
Saints, for the work of the

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ministry, for the edifying of
the body of Christ, Till we all

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come in the unity of the faith,
and in the knowledge of the Son

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of God.
Unto a perfect man, unto the

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measure of the stature of the
fullness of Christ, that we

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henceforth be no more children
tossed to and fro, and carried

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about with every wind of
doctrine by the sleight of men,

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and cunning craftiness, whereby
they lie in wait to deceive, but

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speaking the truth in love, may
grow unto Him in all things,

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which is the head, even Christ.
So Paul's definitely seeing

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something is coming that's not
great, right?

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Where where he's talking right
there where he says, you know,

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so that you're not carried about
by every wind of doctrine or the

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hunting and craftiness of of men
that that lie and wait to

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deceive.
He's obviously addressing

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something that's already
happened, right?

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And there is from the other
epistles.

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And you kind of touched on this
from the other epistles,

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especially the Paul, Paul's
epistles is that sometimes he

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writes to these various churches
and he's like, hey, you guys are

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doing great.
But other ones, he's like, you

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got some issues, you got to sort
some stuff out.

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So to, to, to your point, yeah,
it does seem to be like it, it

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almost starts to it, it almost
starts to kind of go into

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apostasy from the moment that
the apostles start facing

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pushback, right?
And this isn't an indictment on

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the apostles, right?
It's just you, you don't have

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what you have today, right?
You don't have the ability to,

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you know, Paul cannot FaceTime
Peter from Ephesus to, to, to

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Jerusalem being like, hey, bro,
we got to have a meeting.

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It doesn't work that way.
And so it becomes a little

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easier, I think, to slip into
apostasy because if you have one

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church and they're all united
around something that's bad,

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good luck on changing that from
afar, right?

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It's going to take a Herculean
effort.

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So, yeah, from those verses, I
mean, and, and the interesting

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thing is, is that he says some
things in there.

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And, and the one that caught me
was the one about 1 baptism,

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right?
There's one baptism.

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Well, we don't see that today
in, in creedal Christianity,

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right?
Some, some go immersion, some

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sprinkle.
The words are all different.

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And I was thinking back to to
Mormon baptisms, even

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fundamentalist ones, they're all
pretty darn close, right?

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Like nothing that I had seen
would be, would make me go,

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well, that's out of the pale of
orthodoxy.

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And so it is interesting.
Yeah, it's, it's absolutely, I

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mean fascinating and, and we're
seeing, you know, things are

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going to be, things are
progressively getting, getting

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bad.
You know, I, I think it's

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Revelation 3 or 4, right?
There's the church, John's

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right, John, the revelators
writing, you know, receiving

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that revelation.
And he says, Jesus says through

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John, you know, to this church,
I would that you were hot or

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that you were cold, but because
you're neither but lukewarm, I'm

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going to spit you out of my
mouth.

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I'll spew you out of my mouth,
right.

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That's a major indictment on
this early Christian Church here

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in Revelation.
And so this text is important in

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one sense in pointing out that
things are going wrong.

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It's also important, I think
it's going to illustrate, as

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we're going to see in these
councils, a major clash of

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ecclesiologies between this text
and those 8 councils.

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So we pointed out that word
ecclesiology last week, right?

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Basically the doctrine of the
Church, right?

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Right.
Yep, perfect.

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What is the church supposed to
look like?

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It's structure, all these
different things.

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So what we're seeing here is
that God has certain positions

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he's put in place to lead the
church.

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He gives some apostles and
prophets, evangelists, pastors

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and teachers.
He puts those positions there

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and he gives good reasons for
why these are necessary

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positions.
He says that Saints can be

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perfected, right.
That actually used to be part of

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the, you know, the Mormon belief
was, you know, we that was.

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The threefold.
Yeah, there was a threefold

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mission, right?
Proclaim the gospel, redeem the

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dead, and perfect the Saints.
Exactly.

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And that's a that's precisely
founded in this passage of

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Scripture.
Right here we have an early

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understanding of what the Church
is supposed to look like, that

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Saints can be perfected, that
the ministry can be going, can

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go forth, that the body of
Christ can be edified or fed and

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that is meant to last.
He says this here, I think this

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is interesting.
We're going to get into this.

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He says he gives us a time frame
for how long these?

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How long do you need apostles
and prophets and teachers and

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all these things he says here,
till we all come in the unity of

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faith.
Right.

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Until we have the knowledge of
the Son of God unto a perfect

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man under the major of the
stature of the fullness of

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Christ.
How long?

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I submit that this is saying
when Christ comes, when we are

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perfected, we are not perfect.
We are so far from it.

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So this idea that we could
replace the apostleship with

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00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,640
something else is just so
ridiculously contrary.

225
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:27,280
Yeah, needless contradictory to
the Scriptures.

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00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,720
And even he has this qualifier
in verse 14.

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00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,160
The purpose of this is so that
we will not be tossed to and

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00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,320
fro.
And so I submit to those friends

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00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,760
who are Protestants who say that
they're, you know, there was no

230
00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,000
apostasy.
And even, you know, to our

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00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,560
Catholic friends, all of those
who say there was no apostasy

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00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:49,800
and we don't need apostles and
prophets anymore, say, well,

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00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:51,760
have we come in the unity of
faith?

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00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:57,000
Are we united as one people?
Have we come to the not the full

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00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,400
knowledge of the Son of God?
You know, now we see through a

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00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,760
glass darkly, as Paul says.
Have we come to these places?

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00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:06,760
Have we come under the measure
of the statue of the fullness of

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00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:10,960
Christ?
And do we know, are we no longer

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00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,360
being carried about with every
wind of doctrine?

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00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,080
Are we no longer being tossed to
and fro?

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00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:17,160
Because I would submit that that
happens in the church all the

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00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:18,280
time.
And I speak of the church

243
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,440
generally, not just Mormonism,
although you know, it certainly

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00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,360
happens there.
Within Protestantism, you have

245
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:27,720
members who believe things that
are contrary to the scriptures.

246
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:32,880
Same in Catholicism and any, any
theologian, any pastor's going

247
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:38,680
to recognize this, right?
We need prophets and we need

248
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,240
apostles.
We have just as much a need to

249
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,600
be prevented from being carried
about with every wind of

250
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,320
doctrine now as we did
yesterday, as is the case with

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00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,880
the Ephesian church.
That needs that support and

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00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,440
motivation too.
No, that makes that makes

253
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,680
perfect sense.
So, and without going too far

254
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,480
into it, because I'm sure we're
going to get to it at some point

255
00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:08,560
here in the absence, look, I'm a
big believer in that that men

256
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,560
don't really generate want to be
careful how I say this, It's

257
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,000
going to be important.
I don't believe that when it

258
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,560
comes to big ideas, right?
And when I say big ideas, I mean

259
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:26,600
ideas that that shape religion
and shape men's dealings with

260
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,560
God or push society forward in
some way.

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00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,880
Most of the time, men are not
innovators.

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00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,960
What they are is they tend to go
back and they look and they

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00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:43,320
extract and maybe they, they not
necessarily twist it, but, but

264
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,040
they tweak it a little bit to
fit in modern day.

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00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,680
Right, Right.
OK.

266
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,600
A good example of this would be
temple work, right?

267
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,920
In the old days, temples didn't
have power, obviously, right?

268
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,560
There's no electricity.
So there's nothing wrong with

269
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,800
stringing power to your temple.
Yeah.

270
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,120
However, there's a replacement,
right?

271
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,560
You replace candlelight with
with electricity.

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00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:11,640
With that in mind, kind of that
replacement model now if if

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00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,920
prophets and apostles are
missing, what's the replacement?

274
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,360
Because I can't imagine that
there wouldn't be a replacement

275
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:20,520
for that.
Does that make sense?

276
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,520
Am I asking a question that
makes sense?

277
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,160
You're asking a question that I
make sense to me if I'm

278
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:27,800
understanding what you're asking
is.

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00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,400
So what happened then, right?
Right.

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00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,520
What, what's next?
And, and we will talk a little

281
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,440
bit about this in one of the
councils, because there's a

282
00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,400
Council decision in either the
second or third of the

283
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,440
ecumenical councils that relates
directly to this question.

284
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,160
OK, Yeah, then we can just wait.
I was just curious.

285
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:50,160
OK.
So yeah.

286
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,040
But there is, there is an
answer, there is a replacement.

287
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,280
We see it coming about pretty
early on after the death of the

288
00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,520
apostles.
It's it definitely is an

289
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,200
emergent view and it takes
several 100 years to take shape.

290
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,319
But there is something that's
coming that's going to replace

291
00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:05,880
it.
Perfect.

292
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,760
OK, No, that makes sense.
So Paul sees it.

293
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,119
Paul sees there's trouble on the
horizon.

294
00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:14,160
That's right.
And all of the other, you know,

295
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,200
all of the other writers of the
of the New Testament are seeing

296
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,240
it too.
Jesus has already been talking

297
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,839
about this a little bit about
people having itching ears and,

298
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,160
you know, going off and doing
their own thing, you know, doing

299
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,359
works in his name, but not
actually being, you know, he

300
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,600
says some will come to me and
say Lord, Lord, right?

301
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,640
That's apostasy, right?
He says that false Christs are

302
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:39,480
coming, Peter.
Peter says that, you know, he

303
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:45,080
testifies of in in one respect.
He says he's talking about the

304
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,400
writings of Paul.
And he says the writings of Paul

305
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,240
are really hard to understand
and a lot of people don't get it

306
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,000
and they twist it.
He uses that word twist.

307
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,120
They twist his words and to say
he teaches lawlessness.

308
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,120
And so we're seeing there an
indirect evidence right that

309
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,560
early on in the Christian faith
as well, right here in Peter's

310
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,840
day, people are not getting what
the apostles are trying to teach

311
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:11,800
and they're twisting it to fit
their own right.

312
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:16,000
And then Hebrews talks about
this concept of having, of not

313
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,280
being able to be restored again
once you've denied the faith,

314
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,400
this idea that apostasy is
possible of individuals and

315
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,400
revelation, obviously, we just
mentioned that passage and

316
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,520
revelation, the Revelation,
John.

317
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,560
So all these things testify the
ability for individuals to

318
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:40,680
apostatize.
Now, the leaders of the church

319
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,080
are not immune to this
individual apostasy.

320
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,160
It's possible, right?
And I think we're going to see

321
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:47,840
as we look at this, what's going
on.

322
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,440
So that being said, if you have
any more questions about the

323
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,320
biblical foundations, it's fine.
We can go right in.

324
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:55,280
We can go right in.
We're good.

325
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,240
So we'll start by looking at the
problem as a whole.

326
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,520
And what I mean by that is why
are creeds a problem is the

327
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,320
question I'm asking.
Or more properly, are creeds a

328
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,000
problem?
And so the Prophet Joseph Smith

329
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,360
gives us an answer.
In the history of the Church, he

330
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:15,160
had there two different
statements that he makes. 1 is

331
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,640
in a discourse he gives to the
Saints in 1843.

332
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,000
He has these this to say about
creeds.

333
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,960
I cannot believe in any of the
creeds of the different

334
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,160
denominations, because they all
have some things in them I

335
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,640
cannot subscribe to, though all
of them have some truth.

336
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,680
I want to come up into the
presence of God and learn all

337
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:42,120
things, but the creeds set up
stakes, and say, Hitherto shalt

338
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:45,960
thou come, and no further, which
I cannot subscribe to.

339
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,880
I stated that this is another
statement from 1843 as well.

340
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,480
I stated the most prominent
difference in sentiment between

341
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,440
the Latter Day Saints and the
sectarians was that the latter

342
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,240
were all circumscribed by some
peculiar creed which deprived

343
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,960
its members the privilege of
believing anything not contained

344
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,160
therein, whereas the Latter Day
Saints are ready to believe all

345
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:10,640
true principles that exist as
they are made manifest from time

346
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:15,280
to time.
Yeah, it's that's, that's

347
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:20,720
fascinating, right?
Because it sounds like as Joseph

348
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,880
is pointing it out, it's the
creeds that are the problem,

349
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,200
right?
It is, it is the barrier which

350
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,160
prevents entry from really
diving into the mysteries of

351
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,040
godliness, Right, Right.
You're, you're going to come to

352
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,160
this point and you go no
further.

353
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,280
Exactly.
You know, I as you are, I came

354
00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,680
from the outside of Mormonism
completely.

355
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:45,440
And one of the things I loved
about it was this idea that

356
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,000
there was no question that was
off limits, right?

357
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,000
That all of it could be, could
be questioned at some level and

358
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,000
say, why is it we do the things
that we do?

359
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:02,920
And I found that refreshing.
And it's out of questioning

360
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,240
that, quite frankly, you and I
are sitting here having this

361
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,320
conversation.
It's a question that Joseph

362
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,760
poses, right?
What, what church should I join?

363
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,840
We can't look at those questions
and questioning as something

364
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,400
that's bad, right?
Look, it always hurts to

365
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,200
stretch, right?
Whether you're at the gym or

366
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,680
you're reading your scriptures,
Either way, when you get

367
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,840
something that's going to change
the way you look at things, it

368
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,040
hurts a little bit, right?
And sometimes we have to embrace

369
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,800
that hurt, right?
We have to be able to lay

370
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:39,560
whatever false doctrinal sacred
cow we have on the altar and let

371
00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,520
God have His way with it so that
we can come to something better.

372
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,440
I can't help but but think too,
there's an interesting parallel,

373
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:54,680
right, Which is as creeds are
too true Christianity, I can't

374
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,160
help but notice that that
perhaps political parties are

375
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,520
the thing that stands in our way
of, of getting to the heart of

376
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,520
the matter on living truly free.
So I, I do think there's an

377
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,200
interesting parallel there to be
had.

378
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,600
But no, the the creeds seem to
be a problem in Joseph's mind,

379
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,560
aren't they?
Yes, and and This is why they're

380
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,480
problem.
They're not problematic in the

381
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:20,200
sense that defining or stating
belief is a problem, right.

382
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,720
So the word creed just simply
comes from a Latin word credo or

383
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,200
credo.
And that means literally I

384
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,160
believe that's all it means.
So you have a credence.

385
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,920
A credence is what a belief,
right.

386
00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:38,600
And so ideally, a creed is
simply helpful statements

387
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,800
summarizing the positions of a
person or persons.

388
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,600
The problem arises, however,
when, as Joseph states, those

389
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,600
beliefs become so binding as to
become stringent.

390
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,360
So when they put God in a box,
we were looking at last week

391
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:57,360
with the Joseph Smith history,
right where he says these creeds

392
00:22:57,360 --> 00:23:01,120
are an abomination because they
reduce me God to a box.

393
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,560
They make things so stringent,
you know.

394
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,920
And he says here in that first
statement that we looked at,

395
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,480
right, I hitherto the shalt thou
come and no further.

396
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,560
And there's a direct statement
in one of these councils that

397
00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,160
we're going to be looking at as
well that makes that exact

398
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,760
claim.
Hitherto shalt thou come and no

399
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,120
further.
So that is problematic, right?

400
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,920
And the Prophet Joseph, later on
you'll find that in the

401
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,080
teachings of the Prophet Joseph
Smith, he says some people are

402
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,000
too wise to be taught.
They put their stake in the

403
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,520
ground and they say I'm not
going to go any farther than

404
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,680
where I where God is revealed
right now.

405
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,440
And this was an early problem in
the latter day St. movement as

406
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,040
well with the church, right.
Joseph says that I try to reveal

407
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,000
something and they fly to pieces
like glass anytime I try to

408
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:54,160
reveal more and more.
And This is why the Prairie

409
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,240
Saints exist.
This is why the eastern side of

410
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,080
Mormonism is what it is.
Community of Christ, the

411
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,600
independent RLDS groups, they
could not accept this Nauvoo

412
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,120
theology that was being revealed
That I would argue is the

413
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:09,280
beginnings of which are much
earlier than Nauvoo.

414
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,560
But that's beside the point.
They're not willing to embrace a

415
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,960
lot of this temple work and
these these ideas of the

416
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,720
exaltation with some exceptions,
you know, they're all these

417
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,720
groups will have certain beliefs
similar to us, like baptism for

418
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,440
the dead, even though they don't
practice it.

419
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,400
But anyway, all of these things
are pretty common to the human

420
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,960
condition, but we have to be
open.

421
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:41,200
We cannot let this idea that you
know we are defined and and put

422
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,480
into a border or a stake by what
the creeds are claiming.

423
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,000
Interesting.
OK, so let me ask this question

424
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,800
because I do feel like it's
important that that if if we

425
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,000
level that claim and I'm
perfectly fine leveling that

426
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:55,960
claim.
Yeah.

427
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,120
In some ways, our creeds would
be the articles of faith, right?

428
00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:02,080
Right.
We have two creeds, we have the

429
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,400
articles of faith and then we
have Mind Your Business, right?

430
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,680
Right, right.
Yes, yes, which was actually on

431
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,600
the Deseret if I'm not mistaken.
It was on the Deseret currency.

432
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,400
Mind your own business or mind
your business, something like

433
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,120
that.
But so we have the articles of

434
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:20,680
faith.
How do those differ then from

435
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,640
say, other creeds that are had
in different religions, right,

436
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,360
And in other sectarian Christian
Christianity?

437
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:36,920
That's a good question.
So, so the, the articles of

438
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,760
faith come from a letter.
So, you know, the degree to

439
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,400
which the result of this letter
is revelation or not.

440
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,920
I, you know, I'm not going to
argue that or you know, I do

441
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,200
think there is certain
inspiration and we've canonized

442
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,400
it.
We think it's helpful.

443
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,360
You know, perhaps there is a
certain way in which it's

444
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,680
different from other canonical
writings because of the fact

445
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,760
that it is this letter and
really all it serves is to be a

446
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,120
helpful idea of some of our
beliefs.

447
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:12,080
First off, I'd say, you know,
there's a degree.

448
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,000
I don't know if I want to say
that no, but perhaps there are a

449
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:22,400
lot more basic, you know, these
are not, we are going to define

450
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,640
the exact nature of who God is
and all of these minute details

451
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,560
with Greek philosophy, right?
These are not philosophical

452
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,160
statements at all In well, they
are.

453
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,520
Everything's philosophical, but
you know what I mean, right?

454
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,240
I I know what you mean 100%.
I was going to say, I actually,

455
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,560
I didn't know we'd be talking
about creeds, but I was curious.

456
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,760
So I went and I did some
research on some of them.

457
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,040
Like most of the time creeds are
very specific and they'll

458
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,800
usually tell you what you're
about, right?

459
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,040
I, I looked at, at one of the
Baptist creeds and it was clear

460
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,640
it was about baptism, right?
Like that was, that's what

461
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,680
they're going for.
What I and, and a lot of them

462
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,640
were that way very specific,
right?

463
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,440
Almost like they picked out a
pet doctrine that they were

464
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,800
going to focus on.
And that was the stake that they

465
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,400
put in the ground.
To use Joseph's terminology,

466
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,680
what I find in the articles of
faith that are different is that

467
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,480
it never does that right.
It gives you some inkling.

468
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,440
They're broad in nature, vague
in their descriptions.

469
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,840
And I think that's intentional
because I think even Joseph knew

470
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:32,240
he wasn't done at that time.
There was more for him to to

471
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:37,360
relay while those like as I
looked at the different creeds

472
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:40,800
and I looked at the articles of
faith, I could say like most of

473
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,560
the time they look at creeds
kind of like rules, right?

474
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,840
And the articles of faith are
more principle driven.

475
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,960
If if that's a good analogy.
If you don't.

476
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,200
Right, that's totally fair.
Please correct me on that.

477
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,280
No, they're absolutely
principally driven, you know,

478
00:27:55,360 --> 00:28:02,440
and right and I do, I do believe
everything in here is true.

479
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,000
And so I can certainly say I
believe in that.

480
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,600
I can add myself to that.
We believe in, you know, in

481
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:13,080
those statements right now,
another difference the a lot of

482
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,600
these councils are trying to
decide there's their theological

483
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,600
errors that have crept into the
church have taken a large hold

484
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:20,920
and they're trying to answer
that.

485
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,400
This is not this is just saying,
hey, what are you guys about

486
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,320
right?
These these aren't trying to

487
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,560
decide the errors of certain
movements, which I think

488
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,720
certainly has a place.
I'm not going to argue that

489
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,480
right there is.
There is a lot of truth in

490
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,560
these, in these, in these
statements that we're going to

491
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,480
be looking at the the Prophet
Joseph in that 1843 statement

492
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,720
says there are some things in
them I can't subscribe to,

493
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,480
though all of them have some
truth.

494
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,800
Right.
Right, you know, and that's the

495
00:28:53,800 --> 00:29:02,480
truth about everything.
You know, Joseph is going

496
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,760
through the apocrypha and he
says there are some errors in

497
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,080
there.
You know, nevertheless, you

498
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,000
know, we don't, we don't have to
translate it because it's, it's

499
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,360
pretty good.
It's good enough that we don't

500
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,280
have to translate.
We can set it aside.

501
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,720
But he, he recognizes that, you
know, these things aren't

502
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,000
infallible.
Humans aren't in, aren't humans

503
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,600
are not infallible, and so
they're going to be some errors

504
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,880
correct in, but they're also
truths, and we need to remember

505
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,920
that.
Absolutely.

506
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,760
OK.
Yeah, no, that was good.

507
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,560
That was perfect.
Excellent.

508
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,240
So yeah, there's, there's,
there's a really solid

509
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:42,760
foundation in, in what the
creeds are and why they, why

510
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,440
they're not, why they're, are
they problematic?

511
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,520
And I would say in some senses,
yes.

512
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,120
When they become restrictive,
yes.

513
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,800
When they're just statements of
belief like we have here.

514
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,240
No, certainly not.
Now, I would say that you cannot

515
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,000
in some of these statements
here, you know, you cannot be a

516
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,800
latter day St. and reject these
statements, right?

517
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,000
You can't be a latter day St.
and reject the idea that we

518
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,280
believe in God the Father and
the Son, Jesus Christ, right?

519
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,640
And in the Holy Ghost.
These things do exist.

520
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,720
And, and if you're going to
proclaim this faith, you have to

521
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,160
believe those things.
But again, like we said, more

522
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:17,720
generalized statements in the
articles of faith.

523
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,240
That's all, Absolutely.
Perfect.

524
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:22,920
So we're going to be looking at
councils.

525
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,560
Where does this idea of councils
come from?

526
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,680
Is it something that you ask
that question?

527
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,360
What's next?
Did what's next after to replace

528
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,960
the apostleship?
Did the did the early church or

529
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,760
the developing church just pull
this council idea out of

530
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,440
nowhere?
And the answer is absolutely not

531
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,320
right.
So the first councils of the

532
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,480
Messianic Church are recorded
in, typically we would say in

533
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:52,840
Acts chapter 1 and Acts chapter
15, Acts chapter 1, the apostles

534
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,640
gather together in council.
So it's maybe not as organized

535
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,760
of a council, you know, as we
might see in later councils, but

536
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,880
they're there to decide who's
going to replace Judas Iscariot

537
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:13,120
for the apostleship, right?
Judas dies, he betrays Jesus,

538
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,120
he's he dies.
There are a few different

539
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:21,240
traditions about that, about how
that happens and and they come

540
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,480
together to find out who is
going to do this.

541
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,760
They cast lots, figure it out
and pick a pick a replacement,

542
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,440
which again, early attestation
that the idea was to continue

543
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,520
the the apostleship because they
choose an apostle to continue in

544
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,760
his place.
It's not this idea that oh, once

545
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,840
the apostles are died, the
foundation is clear.

546
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:41,880
We're good.
We got it.

547
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,200
We don't need anything else.
No, they felt the need to

548
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,400
replace the apostles.
So that's just another evidence

549
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,360
of testing to what Ephesians for
saying, right?

550
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,160
Absolutely.
And it at least shows like,

551
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,080
look, as a surveyor, a lot of
what I do is I read old legal

552
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,440
descriptions from surveyors that
came before me.

553
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,440
And often times they'll spell
out their intent, right?

554
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:08,440
Go 1300 feet to the center of
of, you know, the Braxton Canal,

555
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,760
right?
Well, the, the, the, the number

556
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,040
that they call out 1320 becomes
secondary to their intent, which

557
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:22,240
is that intent is to, to, to go
to the center of the canal.

558
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,320
Likewise, in this conversation
here, this, this part of the

559
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,080
conversation, there's no doubt
there's intent there, right?

560
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,800
They've received some sort of
instruction that, hey, you got

561
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,320
to have 12, right?
That's right, you need to have

562
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,400
12.
And so the idea was, is that

563
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,360
this was to continue on.
This was not to just stop with

564
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,960
with the original 12.
Right.

565
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,480
Absolutely.
Intent.

566
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,640
Exactly.
And you know, critics, there are

567
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,560
critics that do state, right,
the text says there in Acts one

568
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,200
about the idea that the the
person is a witness of the

569
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,960
resurrection.
And we can we can quibble about

570
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,880
what that means, right?
They'll say, oh, we it was only

571
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,400
meant for the time when the
witnesses of the resurrection

572
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:05,600
were alive.
So if there are no more

573
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,400
witnesses of the physical
resurrection, it's not the case.

574
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,240
You know, I would just submit
that right, true apostles have

575
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,120
seen Christ, the resurrected
Lord.

576
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,880
So, and that may not be at the
beginning of their calling,

577
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,640
right?
You know, Oliver Cowdrey writes

578
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,400
that letter early on in the
church about the importance of

579
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,920
doing everything you can to have
that witness of the Lord,

580
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,960
probably in light of this text
here in Acts One.

581
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,840
But so there there's an example,
the early counsel example, the

582
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,160
decision that relates directly
to this that we're talking about

583
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:41,920
with ecclesiology and the
apostleship.

584
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,840
Acts chapter 15 is about
deciding an important question.

585
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:53,960
What do we do with the Gentiles?
You know, it's always just been

586
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,760
Israel.
Now, I'd submit that's not

587
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,360
entirely true, right?
There's Gentile inclusion in the

588
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,000
Old Testament.
If you're reading through that,

589
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,520
you know, Isaiah 56 and 58 talk
about that a little bit.

590
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,400
Right.
For example, but it's definitely

591
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,000
a broader, fuller mission to the
Gentiles now.

592
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,239
So it's, it's no longer just,
oh, if you want, if you're a

593
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:15,639
Gentile and you want to be a
part of this.

594
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,520
Now people are legitimately
coming into this in droves.

595
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:20,880
And the question is, what do we
do?

596
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:25,840
To what degree do they have to
follow our rules and ways of

597
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,120
doing things that we've always
done?

598
00:34:27,159 --> 00:34:31,280
Jewish law, right?
Right yeah the the law of Moses.

599
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,440
What role does that play here
You know tip in a lot of this

600
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,600
has to do around is centered
around right You know people

601
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,800
like we got to be you got to be
circumcised and so there that's

602
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,400
a question that comes up in the
early church.

603
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,560
How do you participate in the,
the covenant?

604
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,800
And, and so that's right.
The, and I would say that's

605
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,800
probably more the focal point of
the New Testament.

606
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,719
It's not how are we saved, but
who can be saved is the question

607
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,600
that's trying to be reckoned
with and dealt with.

608
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,240
You know, how we can say how we
are saved is more of an

609
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:04,800
afterthought.
I don't want to say that

610
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,800
soteriology or the salvation
theology is not important, but

611
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,720
the question of who is included
in the family of God is the

612
00:35:11,720 --> 00:35:14,880
bigger broader question.
So that's the the second council

613
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,240
is trying to decide that and
they have their own outcomes

614
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,960
that are irrelevant to the
purpose of this presentation.

615
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,680
But that's an early, early
question.

616
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,840
So these two councils here
really form, and because Acts is

617
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,520
the book that we call the
history of the church in the

618
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,280
early movement, that's really
all we hear about the councils

619
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,880
in the New Testament.
You know, there were probably

620
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:42,920
others that aren't recorded
because it's outside of the

621
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,760
scope of the beginning church.
But anyway, these councils

622
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,240
themselves form the basis for
the subsequent councils that

623
00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:53,760
we're going to be looking at.
OK, OK, so everything they get

624
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,680
the idea from a council
understanding that I believe it

625
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,120
was, Correct me if I'm wrong
here, wasn't it Stephen that

626
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:04,880
replaced Judas?
It was oh man, I should know

627
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:05,880
this.
And you, you caught.

628
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,000
Me.
Or is it not Stephen?

629
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,800
I don't think it was Stephen was
a Deacon, but I'm trying to

630
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,880
remember who it was.
You're referring to Stephen

631
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,520
Martyr, right?
Yeah.

632
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:22,120
The martyr, yeah, it was not
Stephen, I think it was say .2

633
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:28,200
Joseph called Bar Sabbas, who
was surname Justice and

634
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,880
Matthias.
And they prayed and said and

635
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,720
that he may take part of the
apostleship.

636
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,640
And they gave forth their lots
and a lot fell upon.

637
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,000
So they cast lots to decide
which of these two.

638
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:39,880
And it was Matthias that was
chosen.

639
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,600
Interesting.
Yeah, I I totally spaced on the

640
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:45,480
name there.
It's.

641
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,920
No, no, you're good.
So, so basically their idea to

642
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,120
and what's the first council?
Is it the Nasian?

643
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,560
So that's going to be the first
of the seven ecumenical councils

644
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,240
that we're looking at today.
Yeah, Nicene.

645
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,560
Council so they get the idea
from the Nicene Council by the

646
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,120
council that took place to
replete place Judas with

647
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,200
Matthias.
And so they're in the Jerusalem

648
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,680
Council in Acts 15.
So, so they're, they're off to

649
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,440
at least the right start, right?
They're looking backwards going,

650
00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:16,040
OK, we got precedent for this.
Let's do this so they at least

651
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,640
start from a from Not a bad
place, right?

652
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,880
And how they're going to do it.
Certainly I, I would not

653
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,240
establish bad intention to these
men, right?

654
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:29,800
They're trying to figure things
out.

655
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:34,000
They're separated now.
These are, these are 200 years

656
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:41,320
removed from Jesus.
The first council is 200 years

657
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,480
removed from when Jesus is is
dead and his resurrected.

658
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,280
So he's been gone for a really
long time.

659
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,760
And now I will also, I will
point out though, as a qualifier

660
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:54,360
to this idea that yes, the
councils are rooted in

661
00:37:54,360 --> 00:38:01,120
Scripture, Acts 1 and Acts 15.
However, again, we we've got to

662
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,960
bring back up Ephesians 4.
God sets his ecclesiology,

663
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,920
ecclesiological standard, that
is the apostleship.

664
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,040
And so these councils are not
going to be LED.

665
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,000
This is that's that contrast
that that I was talking about

666
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,720
earlier between Ephesians 4 and
the council's, the fusion, the

667
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,960
the Acts chapter 15 council was
led by apostles.

668
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,080
It was decided by apostles, by
men who had the authority that

669
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,160
God set up when He set up His
church.

670
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,320
Right.
These are going to be looking at

671
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,600
decided by a bunch of bishops.
We'll get into the replacement

672
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,320
idea again, like we talked about
later based on your question,

673
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,000
Yeah, no, you're good.
That's what's basically

674
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,680
different.
So there's similarities and

675
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,640
their differences, right, That
makes sense.

676
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,560
So.
They're calling bishops together

677
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,960
now.
Now these aren't bishops like

678
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,680
Mormons are going to realize
recognize, right?

679
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,480
The they're they're you're
holding some different callings

680
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,840
in those days, right.
And and as I kind of I, I didn't

681
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,680
thumb through a lot of the
substance, but I did look at the

682
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:14,040
overall structure and it looks
like bishops are functioning

683
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:19,920
almost like, I don't know,
almost like patriarchs in some

684
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,240
ways, right?
Yeah, right.

685
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:24,480
They're like in patriarchs, a
hybrid between a state president

686
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,160
and a patriarch.
That's exactly right.

687
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,280
OK.
So the the role at this point in

688
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,360
Christianity is a little bit
different than a Bishop in so

689
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,280
let's.
Talk about, just for a second,

690
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,200
let's give the lay of the
theological land, so to speak.

691
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:45,080
So here you have all these
disparate groups, right?

692
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,640
These, these, these, these
groups that are separated by, by

693
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,560
in those days, massive swaths of
ground, right?

694
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:54,960
You're not covering them in a
day.

695
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,640
Right.
And so the the the issue then

696
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:04,400
becomes you know.
How are you going to coordinate

697
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:05,960
doctrine?
How are you going to coordinate

698
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,040
practice?
And what what leads to to this

699
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,600
idea of needing to call that
first council who calls it?

700
00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:21,360
OK, so, so this first Council,
it's the first of what we call

701
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,520
the seven Ecumenical Councils or
this the earliest of the

702
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:31,640
Council's right.
And the purposes absolutely are

703
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,520
to unite the Christian churches
and proclaim A cohesive,

704
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,560
consistent doctrine.
I just said earlier, whether or

705
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,000
not these councils and their
decisions are carried out with

706
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,760
malicious detentions can be
debated.

707
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,920
I'm not going to do that.
It's not our job to say whether

708
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,760
they were bad, the people making
the decisions were bad or not.

709
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,840
Although, you know, you'll hear
a lot of criticism from certain

710
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,080
movements that have rejected
these councils.

711
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,720
You know, really trying to say,
you know, Constantine is just

712
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:03,400
the devil.
And you know, we may or may not

713
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,080
agree on that.
That's, that's fine, you know,

714
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,080
but that that's not the point.
Debating whether or not he was

715
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:17,760
the devil is not the point.
So in 325 AD, again, 200 years,

716
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,120
just under 200 years since
Christ has been has resurrected

717
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,640
and ascended into the heavens.
The first of these councils is

718
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:29,040
held at Nicaea, which I believe
is in modern day Turkey.

719
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:34,200
So the impetus for this council
is in the controversy over the

720
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,800
teachings of Arius.
So Arius is a Roman priest who

721
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,800
held that the Son was both
subordinate to the Father and

722
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:48,280
created and therefore not
eternal, unlike the Father.

723
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:53,880
All right, so Jesus didn't
always exist is what Arius says.

724
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,160
That's the foundation of
Arianism, that at some point,

725
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:03,160
before he, at some point he did
not exist and then he comes into

726
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,960
being right now.
Tangentially.

727
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,320
It's interesting with that to
note that some writers have

728
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,960
accused Mormonism, Mormon and
Mormon beliefs about Jesus.

729
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,360
That is our Christology.
So Christology is like

730
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,640
ecclesiology.
It's the doctrine about Christ.

731
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,760
What is the theology of Christ?
And they've accused Mormon

732
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:27,000
Christology of being Aryan or of
of the teachings of areas.

733
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:34,640
Now as a reply, I would just
simply state that Mormons

734
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,960
believe that Christ eternally
existed and merely or was merely

735
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,720
organized from intelligence into
his body later, right?

736
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,680
So Aryanism is not tenable in
Mormon theology.

737
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,720
It's not possible because there
is no distinguishing

738
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:53,400
characteristic between God, the
angels, and man.

739
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,880
We're all the same race.
That's the race of the gods,

740
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,640
right?
And so everyone existed as an

741
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,360
intelligence before.
Material is eternal, matter is

742
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,320
eternal.
Therefore Christ has always

743
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:10,960
existed, just like you have
always existed, which is a major

744
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,240
contrast in the creedal
Christianity.

745
00:43:13,240 --> 00:43:15,880
It's coming out of these 7
ecumenical councils, but that's

746
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,560
another story.
So to get into your question

747
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,680
more, this is all just that
background in the midst of that

748
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:27,200
controversy with Arias, the
Emperor Constantine.

749
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,840
So he's there's the east and the
West.

750
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,280
Constantine defeats this guy
called Licinius and he becomes

751
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,120
the ruler over the entire Roman
Empire.

752
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,200
So he unites the Roman Empire to
1 east and West.

753
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:45,040
And so near the beginning of his
reign as emperor, he begins to

754
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,200
insert himself in ecclesiastical
matters.

755
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,920
Obviously we know that he
converts to Christianity.

756
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,360
Scholarship is pretty good that
states it's probably political

757
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,040
that his conversion to
Christianity and he wants to

758
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,560
establish and consolidate power.
But regardless, we're not here

759
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:06,080
to debate the malintent or not.
But anyway, so he begins to

760
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,960
insert himself into these
ecclesiastical matters and

761
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,480
ultimately he's calling a
council to settle the Aryan

762
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:13,280
dispute.
So the bishops are arguing back

763
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,160
and forth.
What is this Aryan thing?

764
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,440
What are we doing with this?
You know, you know, Arias has

765
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,720
got a big hold here.
And these other guys are like,

766
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,840
what he's proclaiming is true,
not true.

767
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,840
Christ did eternally pre exist,
right?

768
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,080
He has been here.
He's not just created.

769
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,080
So he calls together these
bishops and of the bishops,

770
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:43,720
around 318 convene in Nicaea.
Numbers are a little, probably,

771
00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:45,560
probably a little lower than
that, but doesn't really matter

772
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:50,080
too much.
And it's interesting to note, I

773
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,120
think that the Bishop of Rome,
which we, you know, obviously we

774
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,360
think of as Pope, right, was not
in attendance.

775
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,240
He did not show up for this
council.

776
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,440
And I don't know.
I think it, in my view, it says

777
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,960
something about the early
primacy of the Bishop of Rome in

778
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,440
the right, right.
But that's beyond the scope of

779
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,560
this discussion too.
We're not going deeper into

780
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,640
that, but about the supremacy of
Rome.

781
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:20,480
But anyway, so.
So again, yeah.

782
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,760
So here's that's the fishy thing
in this first council is the

783
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,120
question is who called and
convened it?

784
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,120
It's Constantine.
It was the emperor.

785
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,840
It was a political leader.
You know, obviously there's no

786
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,000
sharp division here between
church and state because the

787
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,120
church is the state and the
state is the church, right?

788
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,160
That might be too reductionist,
but it's the statement I'm

789
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:41,160
making anyway.
It's.

790
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:43,680
It's true, right?
It's it's true.

791
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:48,400
I mean, it is what it is.
Let's talk a little bit about

792
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,040
Constantine.
Who was he?

793
00:45:54,040 --> 00:46:00,240
Now I am not equipped to go as
full in maybe as you would like,

794
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:01,720
but I can.
No, no, no.

795
00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:04,640
I just want a broad overview.
I'm not looking looking for

796
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:06,080
anything here.
So.

797
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,760
Who he was, what he did.
He's a guy that is an early

798
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,440
leader in the in in the Roman
Empire.

799
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,640
He like I said earlier, he's
having these contingency.

800
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:25,200
He wants a lot of power.
He's power hungry and in his

801
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,680
campaigns and crusades he
eventually, you know, is able to

802
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,840
take down the competing leader
in the Roman Empire, Licinius,

803
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,840
and unites those, like I said
earlier, unites that empire into

804
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:43,920
one whole Roman Empire.
He's politically motivated and

805
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:46,880
minded, right?
He's a Pagan.

806
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:53,600
He has a lot of Pagan ideas.
He certainly wants to use

807
00:46:53,920 --> 00:47:00,400
whatever he can to consolidate
his his own motives and powers

808
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:01,480
together.
Right.

809
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,520
And basically, yeah.
Correct me if I'm wrong here,

810
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:11,640
because up in Rome and and the
Roman Empire up until this time,

811
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:16,720
right, you had a wide variety of
gods to choose from based on

812
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:19,800
what you were needing for
whatever you know, your crops,

813
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,800
your finances, your family,
whatever there was, there was a

814
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:25,160
whole bunch of gods to choose
from.

815
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,080
And sometimes those God had gods
had competing factions.

816
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:38,040
Here he sees something in
Christianity where he is able to

817
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,440
consolidate everybody under one
God.

818
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,200
And by doing that, that gives
you some freedom to do some

819
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,760
things that may be a little
harder with competing religious

820
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,360
factions.
Is that a good way of looking at

821
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,240
that Braxton?
That's absolutely right, Yes.

822
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:57,760
So, and let's, let's let's state
it as clear as we can.

823
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:03,320
The foundation of one of the
most important meetings and

824
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:09,040
councils in Christian history is
rooted in political authority

825
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,960
and the desire to consolidate
political power, right?

826
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,040
I can't have these bishops
arguing and disagreeing about

827
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,520
this and this and that and
whatever doctrine it is, you

828
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,960
know, it's got to be uniform and
regular, which again, honorable

829
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,040
noble goal, The whole purpose of
Ephesians 4 is to teach that we

830
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:30,960
need to be one, right?
The doctrine come and says, if

831
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,240
you're not one, you're not mine.
We've got to be unified.

832
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,360
But notice what the what it
says, the unity in faith and in

833
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,480
spirit.
Right.

834
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,360
Right.
It's not this unity and

835
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,480
political authority.
So that way I don't have people

836
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,080
challenging or people assuming
that I can't hold this thing

837
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,520
cohesively together.
Yes.

838
00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:52,400
We accept theocratic leadership
is an ideal for our faith.

839
00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:56,720
We believe that eventually the
right government does have a tie

840
00:48:56,720 --> 00:48:59,200
between church and state, that
they're not, that they are

841
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,720
completely together.
But we do not believe the

842
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:06,880
secular, uninspired edicts of
men ought to have any grounding

843
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,400
on our faith and practice as
Mormons, as Latter Day Saints.

844
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,840
And that's the great contrast
between the Constantine

845
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:21,080
religious councils and and, and,
and ours as, as, as believers,

846
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,960
you know, as our ideal
government expression and faith

847
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,160
got.
You now is Constantine present

848
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,160
at this Council?
I believe so.

849
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,160
You know, that's actually a
really tough question.

850
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,800
I don't, I don't entirely know.
We'll have to get back to you on

851
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,880
that.
But but he definitely has his

852
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,720
hand in it all.
I mean, he's certainly there at

853
00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:44,600
least for certain meetings.
He has his hand in it.

854
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,760
This is all because of him.
All right, perfect.

855
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,240
So what?
What ends up getting discussed

856
00:49:51,240 --> 00:49:53,440
here?
OK, so there's a lot.

857
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,400
Again, the primary foundation of
motivation that political

858
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,880
authority is to make sure that
the Aryan question is settled.

859
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:05,840
Let's have the Christian, this
Christian Church make a, a, a

860
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,400
uniform declaration of what we
are going to believe about,

861
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:14,320
about Christ, his pre existence
or lack thereof.

862
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,240
It's pre mortal existence that
is, excuse me to be more proper

863
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:30,760
and out of this is going to come
the first of these creeds,

864
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:32,680
right?
And there earlier creeds that

865
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,400
that existed prior to this.
But in terms of our purposes,

866
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,640
this is the more important, more
deviating creed that's going to

867
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:46,160
become binding on Christianity.
So this creed is known as the

868
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,720
Nicene Creed because it came
from the Council of Nicaea.

869
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:54,360
And I want to break down, we're
going to read through a little

870
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,520
bit of the maybe, perhaps
they're all of the Nicene Creed,

871
00:50:57,520 --> 00:50:59,880
and we'll just talk about a few
different important points

872
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,440
throughout.
So the creed begins.

873
00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:08,560
We believe in one God the Father
Almighty, Maker of all things,

874
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,920
visible and invisible, in one
Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of

875
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:18,000
God, begotten from the Father,
only begotten, that is, from the

876
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:22,560
substance of the Father.
Anything good you hear in that?

877
00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:27,000
Anything true?
Well, I, I think you know the

878
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,400
the part about our Father and
God, you know, being the the

879
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:32,920
creator of all things down with
that, right.

880
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,600
Absolutely.
Jesus Christ being the Son of

881
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,320
God, right?
So far so good.

882
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,680
I'm not seeing a whole ton of
problems, right?

883
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,880
As a Mormon, I'm like, OK, I'm
good.

884
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,760
I'm good up to that point.
Yeah, so there there are

885
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,120
definitely like like Joseph
says, there are truths in all of

886
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,240
the creeds.
There are also outright

887
00:51:53,240 --> 00:51:57,320
falsehoods.
So I will say, right, so in some

888
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,520
of these statements here are
similar to what we got in the

889
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,720
articles of faith.
We believe in God the Father

890
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:06,240
Almighty, right?
You know, that's what the Nicene

891
00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:11,800
Creed says and he uses one God.
Interesting that there is

892
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,480
somewhat of a separation between
God the Father and Jesus Christ

893
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:21,680
being some separate from God.
But the Greek here has what's

894
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,800
most important is the more the
sticky point that I would say

895
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,120
doctrinally.
So Christianity is going to

896
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:32,200
start to get really sticky here
in contrast to the 1st, I'll

897
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,360
note, in contrast to the
restored gospel.

898
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,120
So Christ is called the only
begotten.

899
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:41,080
Now, obviously, yes, John 316
uses that word monogamous, we

900
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:46,960
the only begotten Son.
And so that's a scriptural term,

901
00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:49,520
right?
However, in creedal

902
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,280
Christianity, this is to the
exclusion of other siblings.

903
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,520
So God, you know, the Son of God
does not have any other kid,

904
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,440
other brothers and sisters.
God doesn't have any other kids

905
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:03,120
but this one here Jesus and
right.

906
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,840
And and so that's, that's in
direct conflict with what what

907
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,880
we see in the restored gospel in
Christian in, in the Christian

908
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,760
scriptures, right.
You know, we understand as as

909
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,280
Mormons that God has lots of
kids.

910
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,400
We're those kids.
We're of the race of gods.

911
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:29,240
And, and so this is a, a
departure from from what

912
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,120
Christianity, what the, the
scriptures teach in my view,

913
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:40,280
Acts chapter 1729, right?
Paul is, is preaching and he's

914
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,680
in Athens and preaches at Mars
Hill.

915
00:53:43,240 --> 00:53:50,200
And in Acts 1729, he says this
speaking to the Greeks and he

916
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,000
talks about to the unknown God.
He's going to tell you.

917
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,160
I'm going to tell you who this
unknown God is, says this.

918
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:00,200
For as much then as we are the
offspring of God, we ought not

919
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,840
to think that the Godhead is
like under gold or silver or

920
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,000
stone, graven by art and man's
device.

921
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:11,400
Who are we, the offspring of
God?

922
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:13,920
Yeah, we're the children of God.
Right.

923
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:18,200
That's that's exactly right.
You know, Paul is teaching here,

924
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,840
you know, I submit, we are
literally God's children.

925
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,200
We are offspring.
And I would say that the the

926
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,400
language here in the original is
saying that directly.

927
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,200
It's a very forceful rhetorical
device.

928
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:38,160
Romans 815 for you've not
received the spirit of bondage

929
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:40,880
to get into fear, but you've
received the spirit of adoption

930
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:48,360
whereby we cry ABBA Father, the
spirit itself bears witness with

931
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:52,000
our spirit that we are the
children of God.

932
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,200
Now some will quibble with that
word.

933
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,240
It's just said in verse 15
receive the spirit of adoption.

934
00:54:59,240 --> 00:55:01,360
So what does that mean right.
Are you literally it's not

935
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:10,360
literal.
There's a good book on

936
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,440
systematic theology that was
written that explains a little

937
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:15,040
bit about more of the ancient
view about what adoption is that

938
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,400
I think will help us clear up
that for anyone who's trying to

939
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,480
would try to use that text as
not teaching what we're saying

940
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:23,160
here.
And so I just want to read that

941
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:25,840
because it is insightful and
impactful.

942
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,480
Says today when one speaks of
adoption, he refers to the legal

943
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,760
process whereby a stranger
becomes a member of the family.

944
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,360
In Paul's time, however,
adoptions referred to that legal

945
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:42,200
process whereby a parent placed
his own child, his own child

946
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:47,120
emphasis, in the legal position
of an adult son with all the

947
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,000
privileges of inheritance.
Someone may question why

948
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,360
adoption was required when the
child was already a son by

949
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,920
birth, but it must be remembered
that in Pagan Rome a citizen

950
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:57,960
often had many wives and many
children.

951
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:01,320
Some of the wives may have been
concubines and slaves.

952
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:05,160
The citizen may not have wanted
the offspring of his slave wives

953
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,800
to receive his titles, position
in society, and inheritance.

954
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,120
The legal procedure of adoption
therefore, provides a means

955
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:15,280
whereby the citizen could
designate those children which

956
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,200
he wished to be considered his
legal sons and heirs.

957
00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:21,280
Through receiving newness of
life, believers become children

958
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,600
of God.
Through adoption, the children

959
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:29,120
of God are declared to be his
sons who have all the privileges

960
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:32,480
and inheritance of sonship.
And that's Alva Huffer in his

961
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,640
systematic theology.
Interesting.

962
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,960
So, so the adoption is not one
to one in the ancient world

963
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,440
today, right?
We are still God's literal

964
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:47,520
children and he, what he is
doing in Christ is bringing us

965
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,680
back in and saying, no, I want
you to have my inheritance.

966
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:54,480
I want you as an adult to take
everything that I have.

967
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:56,600
I want all the riches to be
yours.

968
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,440
I want the Thrones and
principalities, all of it to

969
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,280
become yours.
To become gods, that is.

970
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:05,640
Right, right.
And so he's, he's elaborating

971
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:07,360
there that this isn't what
you're used to.

972
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,520
Precisely.
This isn't your burning

973
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:12,520
expression.
This isn't your father's law of

974
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:14,160
adoption.
Precisely.

975
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,360
Exactly.
That's a that's exactly right.

976
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,320
So the Scriptures teach at the
God of the spirits of all flesh,

977
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,200
right?
So he is he is the Father.

978
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:25,160
You know, Hebrews, the book of
Hebrews testifies to that.

979
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,360
The Romans here.
That is the foundation.

980
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:33,160
We see here an early departure
from that faith and position

981
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:40,120
which says that to the exclusion
of all others, Jesus is the only

982
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,560
begotten.
And again, we emphasize that

983
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,880
only begotten in the scriptures,
monogamous weeos in John 3 is

984
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,080
referring to the uniqueness of
the relationship.

985
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,120
There's a certain degree in
which Jesus is different, right?

986
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:59,320
Right.
As as the Son he is, he is the

987
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:03,000
only one that has experienced
the direct fatherhood of God on

988
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,880
earth, right?
As in, you know, God's flesh

989
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:11,000
coming down and the Spirit
hovering over Mary and

990
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,120
conceiving, right?
That that process that does not

991
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,400
occur for any of the rest of us.
Few months back, Justin Frankham

992
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,640
had an idea to make learning
about the fullness of the

993
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,120
restored gospel a lot easier.
It was an idea that once I had

994
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:25,720
my mind wrapped around it, I
felt like it could do a lot of

995
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,120
good.
Mormon Legacy Ministries is a

996
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:31,520
multi denominational ministering
effort to provide a safe landing

997
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,800
place for Mormons to land until
they find their forever church

998
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:37,960
home, while at the same time
offering folks an opportunity

999
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,600
for worship and fellowship.
Here's a little bit of what

1000
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:42,920
Mormon Legacy Ministries is
offering.

1001
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,360
Every second and 4th Saturday of
the month at 3:00 PM Mountain

1002
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,120
Standard Time, a sacrament
meeting is conducted by Joshua

1003
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,800
Erickson.
Every Thursday at 6:00 PM

1004
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:56,360
Mountain Standard Time is the
Gospel Fundamentals class hosted

1005
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:58,840
by Eleanor Walker and Braxton
Bogart.

1006
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,400
Quarterly men's meetings are
also held.

1007
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,800
The next one of those will be
Saturday, February 14th at 6:00

1008
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,120
PM Mountain Standard Time.
There's a women's organization,

1009
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:11,880
and to learn more about that, go
to mormonlegacy.org and click on

1010
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,360
that link.
Finally, for a limited time,

1011
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:18,800
starting February 2nd at 6:00 PM
and every Monday after that at

1012
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,080
6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time,
a discussion group will be held

1013
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,400
on the book The 5000 Year Leap
by Cleon Skousen.

1014
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,280
So whether you're an independent
Mormon fundamentalist, or maybe

1015
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,960
you're a Mormon fundamentalist
already in a group, but you want

1016
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,600
more opportunities to learn and
serve, or perhaps you're an LDS

1017
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,880
person wanting to learn more
about what your theological

1018
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,400
cousins believe, or maybe even
you're not a Mormon at all and

1019
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,720
you're just curious about the
faith, Mormon Legacy Ministries

1020
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,080
is the place for you where you
can go to learn all those things

1021
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:51,640
from the comfort of your own
home over Zoom.

1022
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:56,080
To get there, all you need to do
is go to mormonlegacy.org and

1023
00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:00,360
then click any or all of those
classes that are being offered

1024
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,200
there.
Again, that's Mormon

1025
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,160
legacyministries.org.
Go there today and sign up.

1026
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:07,280
You know.
Right.

1027
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,880
That is, that is solely for for
Jesus.

1028
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,280
Right.
But we are the sons of God

1029
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,480
because we are the sons of Adam,
who is God, and so we come from

1030
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,160
him.
You know, we are all the same

1031
01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:20,000
race.
And we existed, our spirits

1032
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,160
existed in the world's past with
him.

1033
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,720
And we were born of his seed
with his, you know, with our

1034
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,720
mother.
Absolutely.

1035
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:33,640
OK, so that makes that makes
perfect sense.

1036
01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:37,320
So everything seems to be lining
up with the Creed thus far,

1037
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:39,600
right?
Talked about Father, talked

1038
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,680
about the Son, but I imagine
there's more.

1039
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,960
Exactly.
So from this same statement that

1040
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:52,760
we just read, we also see that
by this point in Christianity,

1041
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:56,160
the council's decided to view
God's oneness as ontological in

1042
01:00:56,160 --> 01:00:57,760
nature.
And what do I mean when I say

1043
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:01,440
that?
This fancy word ontology, it's

1044
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:03,480
basically the philosophy of
being.

1045
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,800
And So what they're saying is,
is that God's oneness, that the

1046
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:10,000
idea that he is one, right there
you have the Father, Son and the

1047
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:11,440
Holy Ghost.
These three are one.

1048
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,160
You know, we latter students
have a certain view when we

1049
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,040
think about that.
Mormons think about that in a

1050
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,280
certain way, the idea that these
three are one.

1051
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,600
Right.
When we say that ontology is

1052
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:26,680
oneness, is ontological, what
we're saying is that it's about

1053
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,720
the being, right?
It's not about purpose or unity,

1054
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:34,960
but rather it's about these are
literally the same being and and

1055
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,720
that's what we we see here in
this statement that is from the

1056
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:43,160
substance of the Father.
And we're going to see that in a

1057
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:45,480
subsequent statement.
I want to read the the next

1058
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:48,680
paragraph and then we'll explain
that a little bit more from the

1059
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:50,320
from the substance of the
Father.

1060
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,280
The next part of the Nicene
Creed reads God from God, light

1061
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:58,520
from light, true God from true
God, begotten, not made.

1062
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,760
So therefore, responding to that
Aryan controversy, he was

1063
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:10,840
begotten and not made.
So He pre mortally existed of 1

1064
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:15,240
substance with the Father,
through whom all things came

1065
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,400
into being, things in heaven and
on earth.

1066
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:24,360
So that one substance there is
that like a tip of the cap and,

1067
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:30,920
and forgive me, I'm not up on my
on my, my old school Latin, I

1068
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:34,120
guess.
But is that oneness that he's

1069
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,040
talking about?
Is that the oneness of the

1070
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,560
person that he's talking about?
Yeah.

1071
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:46,000
So this one substance, so that
that is from a, it's commonly

1072
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:50,840
rendered in English in the
modern day as consubstantial or

1073
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:55,040
basically which means like with
substance, right, So mean with

1074
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,360
the same substance.
And that comes from a Greek

1075
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:03,760
word, Homo Uzione.
And in modern parlance, it's

1076
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,800
distinguished from the person of
Jesus as his being.

1077
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:09,080
So there's the the idea of the
person and the idea of the

1078
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:11,800
being.
That substance is referring to

1079
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,600
the being of God, so that the
Trinitarians will say there are

1080
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,280
three persons and one being,
which is God.

1081
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:27,760
So yeah, let's see here.
How would you even and look, I

1082
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:32,120
apologize for any to anybody
who's listening who is a

1083
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:38,040
sectarian Christian, but how do
you even wrap your mind around

1084
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:39,480
that?
You can't.

1085
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:45,240
It is.
It's so it's a logical, it's a

1086
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:46,600
logical contradiction.
It is.

1087
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:50,760
It's impossible logically, like
philosophically and and writers

1088
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:54,280
have written and written and
written tones about how this is

1089
01:03:54,320 --> 01:04:00,880
is logically a contradiction.
So you know, that is pretty well

1090
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:06,200
nailed in the coffin shut.
It's not a question whether or

1091
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:09,000
not it makes sense.
Some people will try and say it

1092
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:12,840
makes sense anytime they try to
make sense of it.

1093
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:17,000
It doesn't make sense and and
actually it's interesting.

1094
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:20,040
And so a lot of these councils,
the reasons these things come

1095
01:04:20,040 --> 01:04:24,400
about is because anytime you try
and there's a funny video,

1096
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:27,240
there's a channel on YouTube
called Lutheran satire.

1097
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:29,920
You should, you should look into
them.

1098
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:34,280
They have a video about the
Trinity and trying to decide on

1099
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:36,680
the Trinity, how to define the
Trinity.

1100
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:39,480
And anytime someone tries to
give an example of the Trinity

1101
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:43,200
to make it make sense, it ends
up resulting in a heresy, right?

1102
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:46,560
Something it's going to be
declared by the church actually

1103
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:54,920
as heretical.
And and that's, that's pretty

1104
01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:57,640
telling, right?
It, it doesn't make sense

1105
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:01,240
logically.
Now many will submit and, and

1106
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:03,960
there are plenty who do.
This is called the mystery of

1107
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:05,680
the faith.
You know, there are, there are

1108
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:10,280
several mysteries in the if then
this is more language that's

1109
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:12,400
going to be used in Catholicism
and Orthodoxy.

1110
01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:16,200
And this is one of those
mysteries that, you know, if it

1111
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:18,280
doesn't make sense, Oh, it's
just a mystery, right?

1112
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:24,600
Why might that be problematic to
just, it's a mystery.

1113
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:26,680
We can't understand it.
God can't be understood.

1114
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:30,840
Well, I, I think it flies in the
face of Scripture to be right,

1115
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:32,800
honest with you.
And let let me explain this

1116
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:37,000
here.
What are we told is life eternal

1117
01:05:37,600 --> 01:05:40,400
in the Hebrew Scriptures, in the
New Testament, right?

1118
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,520
John 17.
To know God, it's to know God

1119
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:46,120
and Jesus Christ whom he has
sent, right?

1120
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:52,880
And so there's this idea that
the knowing of who God is is

1121
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:58,480
some of the the knowledge that
will end up becoming exalting to

1122
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:00,440
us, right?
Joseph has that famous quote

1123
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:04,120
Joseph Smith where he says a man
can be saved no faster than he

1124
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:06,160
can gain knowledge.
Right.

1125
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:10,760
We've also been told the only
thing we really take with us to

1126
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:13,720
the other side is, is our
families and our knowledge,

1127
01:06:14,360 --> 01:06:17,040
right along with our attitudes
and our dispositions and those

1128
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:23,880
sorts of things.
And so in that if, if we're

1129
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:26,880
going to take the Scripture
seriously where it says, look,

1130
01:06:26,880 --> 01:06:29,640
pay attention, this is this is
this is important.

1131
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,400
Everything hinges on this
knowledge.

1132
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,040
I agree that can be a mystery,
but the mystery has to be within

1133
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,600
reach, right?
We have to be able to have that

1134
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:44,920
breakthrough.
Otherwise in some ways it's kind

1135
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:49,200
of sadistic to say, and, and
this is the other thing I'm

1136
01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:51,760
going to say and look, people
can challenge me all they want

1137
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,080
on this, but I have yet to have
a satisfactory answer.

1138
01:06:55,400 --> 01:07:02,640
How is it not sadistic to say
your one goal in life is to

1139
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:08,560
figure out who I am, to know me
and then say but you can't

1140
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:10,600
really know me?
Yeah, I'm unknowable.

1141
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:14,320
Right.
That to me is a God that I have

1142
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:19,560
no desire to serve, Right?
That is a God that would be way

1143
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:24,360
more interested in generating
pain and discomfort than coming

1144
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:26,720
into union with his children.
Right.

1145
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,480
And remember that God is not
your Father, the God who is

1146
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:33,600
unknowable and, and, and, right?
The creed just established that

1147
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:36,560
this God is not our Father.
The God of this creed is not

1148
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:39,440
your Father.
Right.

1149
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:46,080
He he only has one kid, right?
There's none else.

1150
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:49,960
So absolutely the Prophet
Joseph, we talked about, we

1151
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:52,280
mentioned this one last week.
It is the first principle of

1152
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:54,920
gospel.
Absolutely just another

1153
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:57,280
extension of John, a testimony
of John 17.

1154
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:00,280
Three is the first principle of
the gospel to know for certainty

1155
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:05,320
the character and being of God.
And being is so important here,

1156
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:06,520
right?
Because that's what we're

1157
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,920
talking about, this homo uzion,
the same being or substance.

1158
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:14,080
You've got to be able to know
who he is, know his being, his

1159
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,560
character, his attributes, these
things about him.

1160
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,240
You've got to learn this.
And Mormonism has a certain

1161
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:22,479
motivation for that.
It's one to know God and to

1162
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,560
worship him.
And it's also because God's

1163
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:27,120
designed for us, because we have
the same race of the gods, is to

1164
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,600
become gods ourselves.
And how can you become something

1165
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:31,160
that you don't know or
understand?

1166
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,560
100%.
Totally recognize that that's

1167
01:08:34,920 --> 01:08:37,880
big, stark departure from
traditional Christianity, and

1168
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:40,800
that's fine.
But so it, it's really a

1169
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:44,000
difference.
Also it's a difference in

1170
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:48,279
understanding the term mystery
from the sectarian Christian

1171
01:08:48,279 --> 01:08:51,160
mindset and that of the Mormon
mindset, right?

1172
01:08:51,479 --> 01:08:55,520
Because when they say it's a
mystery in the sectarian

1173
01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:00,439
circles, it's don't even
attempt, don't try understand

1174
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:03,880
these things are above you.
You can never comprehend God,

1175
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:07,840
Mormonism's and and look, I'm
going to push back on this

1176
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:12,600
thought here a little bit too.
It's been leveled at Mormonism

1177
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:15,960
before, that we bring God down
to man's level.

1178
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:19,960
I don't think that's correct.
I think what Joseph's mission is

1179
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:24,840
and what Mormonism does is it
expands the mind of man to be

1180
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:28,720
able to focus on loftier things
so that man's intellect gets

1181
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:33,000
raised into kind of that God's
fear, so to speak, and we can

1182
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:38,240
now begin to to know him truly
right, have that relationship.

1183
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:42,520
And I think it is an interesting
dichotomy that one of the things

1184
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:45,200
that's often said in creedal
Christianity is have you

1185
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,040
developed a relationship with
your God, right?

1186
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:52,080
Do you know the Lord?
Well, according to this creed, I

1187
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:56,960
really can't, right?
And so how do it seems to be

1188
01:09:56,960 --> 01:10:00,000
self defeating even on surface.
And maybe I'm wrong and maybe

1189
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:02,320
I'm being too harsh here.
And if I am, please correct me.

1190
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:04,640
I'm not trying to be.
I'm just giving trying to give

1191
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:06,560
my honest assessment of what I
see.

1192
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:09,320
Yeah, that's absolutely no, it's
absolutely right.

1193
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:12,880
It's it's getting very tough.
You know, Christianity is

1194
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:15,080
putting itself in a corner in a
really tough position.

1195
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:19,600
It's it's very problematic, this
idea of the one substance, one

1196
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:21,840
being.
It just doesn't make sense.

1197
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:30,240
Now, you know, we will submit.
We are Mormons and we understand

1198
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:35,320
that the way we view God causes
us to be rejected and and and

1199
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,400
called not Christians.
And we were going because of how

1200
01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:39,920
we view God, because we reject
the Trinity, we will burn in

1201
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,920
hell.
We don't we don't afford that

1202
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:46,440
same privilege to to the the the
credo Christians, right?

1203
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:50,920
You know, I'm not going to say
just because you couldn't wrap

1204
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,320
your mind around the
complexities of who I am and my

1205
01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:57,240
nature, although that's all I
wanted, I'm going to cast you

1206
01:10:57,240 --> 01:10:59,840
out forever, right?
Just because you couldn't get

1207
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:01,960
this doctrinal right doctrine
right.

1208
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:05,720
You know, ascent to an idea is
not what God's interested in,

1209
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:08,280
although ascent to ideas is
important.

1210
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:10,680
But the most important part is
the relationship.

1211
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:12,680
And how does this affect
relationship?

1212
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:16,360
And we talked about that last
week in the Joseph Smith history

1213
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:18,720
that when you reduce God to all
these things, you make it

1214
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:21,400
impossible to reach him because
you've made him an idea or

1215
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:23,280
nothing.
That we talked about the idea

1216
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:27,600
of, you know, not having being
immaterial, an idea that is not,

1217
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:30,480
you know, I, I didn't come up
with that idea that this

1218
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:34,320
explanation of nothing, nothing
and ideas being immaterial.

1219
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:40,360
But but that is what's, that's
what's going wrong in

1220
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:43,160
Christianity here.
And, and it also just flies

1221
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:46,520
directly into the face in the
face of this of the Testament

1222
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:48,360
scriptures.
So I want us to look at some

1223
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:52,760
things here.
So in Trinitarian theology, I

1224
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:54,040
want to note this from the
outset.

1225
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:58,600
You can distinct, you can make
distinctions between the persons

1226
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:03,320
of the Godhead.
So you know, you can say the

1227
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:06,480
Father is not the Son for that's
just an example.

1228
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:15,200
That's pretty clear, logical,
but you cannot make a

1229
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:17,480
distinction between God and the
other person's.

1230
01:12:17,480 --> 01:12:21,880
Therefore, you cannot exhaust
the person of God or the being

1231
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:24,920
of God on one of the persons to
the exclusion of the others.

1232
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:27,360
That's going to be really
important, some of these

1233
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:29,120
scriptures that we think we're
looking at here.

1234
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:38,960
So first I think we'll go to, I
think what we might not go to

1235
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:41,320
all of them, I think we'll just
do a couple here.

1236
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:45,560
First is Hebrews, the book of
Hebrews in the New Testament.

1237
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,760
There are plenty of places we go
to in the Old Testament, but I

1238
01:12:48,760 --> 01:12:53,280
think this one might be one of
the most direct.

1239
01:12:55,400 --> 01:13:03,280
OK.
I can find it here.

1240
01:13:03,560 --> 01:13:07,240
There it is.
So the first chapter of Hebrews

1241
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:11,880
writing to, you know, I believe
that Paul wrote this because of

1242
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:15,640
modern revelation, the Prophet
Joseph, though that is

1243
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:17,920
questioned in scholarship.
But that's OK.

1244
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:23,160
And he's writing to Hebrews to a
Jewish audience, not a Gentile

1245
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:25,000
audience.
Yeah, to the Hebrews, Right.

1246
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:29,600
So it's not a Gentile audience.
So let me ask you this, why

1247
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:34,280
would Paul write to the Hebrews
if that's kind of Peters domain,

1248
01:13:34,280 --> 01:13:37,240
right, Because at this time that
he, there's not a lot of Hebrews

1249
01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:39,520
hanging out outside of
Jerusalem, correct.

1250
01:13:39,760 --> 01:13:45,000
You have various groups, but the
bulk is in, is in, in in Israel.

1251
01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:48,680
Why, why?
And, and Paul seems to

1252
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:53,400
specialize, pardon the
expression, in speaking to the

1253
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:56,960
Hellenistic mind.
Why is he, why is he writing to

1254
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:59,040
the Hebrews?
Do we have any idea on that?

1255
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:00,880
That's certainly a good
question.

1256
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:02,840
I don't know.
I'll start by saying that I can

1257
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:04,440
give my I can give my best
guess.

1258
01:14:04,440 --> 01:14:07,840
I don't know the first thing.
Now you're right.

1259
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:10,800
Peter's the the guy, the apostle
to the Hebrews.

1260
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:14,320
Paul's considered generally
considered apostle the Gentiles.

1261
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:17,960
Now, I, I could say, First off,
you know, that is the truth.

1262
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:19,480
That is the declaration of the
Scriptures.

1263
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:24,400
Whether how exclusive those
terms being defined were, I

1264
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:28,680
don't know.
Another thing I would say is he

1265
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:31,800
Paul does have letters where
he's talking about, you know, he

1266
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:33,600
remember, he lists his
credentials.

1267
01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:37,000
He says, you know, circumcised
the 8th day, a Jew of Jews,

1268
01:14:37,000 --> 01:14:39,880
basically Israelite of
Israelites, you know, and he

1269
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:42,960
talks about I had all of these
things going for me.

1270
01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:48,640
You know, I'm a Pharisee.
I and I had zeal and all these

1271
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:52,080
things and all these things I
counted as loss for the sake of

1272
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:56,600
knowing Christ.
So that status that he had as an

1273
01:14:56,600 --> 01:15:00,840
important figure in Judaism, or
at least in Ferris.

1274
01:15:00,840 --> 01:15:04,040
What I would say, what I mean by
that is Pharisaical Judaism,

1275
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:08,480
because at this point,
Christianity and Judaism aren't

1276
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:11,440
two different religions.
Christianity is a sect of

1277
01:15:11,440 --> 01:15:17,040
Judaism, but he had all these
things to be the Pharisaical

1278
01:15:17,040 --> 01:15:21,520
Judaism leader, right?
He had all these titles and so

1279
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:25,640
he knows what he's talking about
when it comes to the Hebrew

1280
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:28,720
world view and mindset too,
right?

1281
01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:31,920
He has the the, the benefit of
being able to speak to the, to

1282
01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:34,920
the Greeks, the Hellenistic
mindset in a unique way, special

1283
01:15:34,920 --> 01:15:40,840
way, but he also really knows
what he's talking about when he

1284
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:44,880
talks about Pharisaical Judaism
now and that directly plays in

1285
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:49,440
the context of this letter.
So what's going on in that's

1286
01:15:49,440 --> 01:15:52,080
necessitating the writing of the
Hebrews, the epistles of the

1287
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:58,720
Hebrews, as I understand it, as
I, as I believe and accept,

1288
01:16:00,440 --> 01:16:03,760
there are a lot of people who
are who are in this Hebrew

1289
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:05,680
worldview have come into
believing in Messiah.

1290
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,840
They've, they've joined this
sect.

1291
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:14,040
Actually, the Bible says that
the early Jewish people believe

1292
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:18,880
that Christianity was a cult,
right sect of Judaism that's

1293
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:25,600
derived that's going away from
the original teachings and

1294
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:30,080
they're facing persecution.
The Christian, the early, you

1295
01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:33,880
know, Messianic movement is
facing persecution and they're

1296
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:36,240
becoming, they're a lot of
people are becoming discouraged

1297
01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:40,320
because of this, right?
Like you said, a lot of the, a

1298
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:45,480
lot of the Jews are out, you
know, and, and so this letter is

1299
01:16:45,480 --> 01:16:48,320
about encouraging them and
reminding them, hey, look, yeah,

1300
01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:51,600
you could go back.
You could go back to Pharisaical

1301
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:55,520
Judaism.
But here's what you're going to

1302
01:16:55,520 --> 01:16:58,200
lose.
There's something so much better

1303
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:06,440
and right, Jesus is so much
better than Pharisaical Judaism

1304
01:17:06,440 --> 01:17:09,400
because he teaches a better,
higher way, right?

1305
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:15,040
He teaches this way that's
different, which you know, is

1306
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:18,400
not, which is about those hedges
around the law that the

1307
01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:21,880
Pharisees put in place.
All these, you can't take this

1308
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:24,600
many steps on the Sabbath.
You can't do all this and that,

1309
01:17:25,280 --> 01:17:27,040
right?
He's trying to show them.

1310
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:28,960
You go back to that.
That's what you're going back

1311
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:29,840
to.
You're going back to this

1312
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:35,680
stringent worldview that's not
rooted in Scripture, that is

1313
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:38,040
apostate in and of itself,
right?

1314
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:40,400
Christ is a restorer.
Christ came and restored the

1315
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:43,120
church.
These Pharisees had come in and

1316
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:46,760
and had aberrated from what the
law originally taught and

1317
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:49,840
intended.
And so he is saying, yeah, you

1318
01:17:49,840 --> 01:17:51,720
can go back to that, but you're
just getting an apostate

1319
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:53,560
version.
You want the true stuff.

1320
01:17:54,280 --> 01:17:56,160
You want to come here, You want
to get Jesus.

1321
01:17:56,440 --> 01:17:59,880
You can go back to all that, but
Jesus is better.

1322
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:04,120
Don't give it up.
So that's the context.

1323
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:06,480
He's going to try and talk.
About he's rallying the troops,

1324
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:07,640
right?
He's saying don't.

1325
01:18:08,200 --> 01:18:10,960
It's it's tough right now, but
don't give up on this.

1326
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:16,880
Right and and so in this this
verse we're going to look at

1327
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:21,280
that really pushes back against
this homo easy on the same.

1328
01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:27,840
This one substance is in that
sense of, hey, yeah, look, Jesus

1329
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:32,400
is the full expression of God.
And so, yeah, you can go back to

1330
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:35,880
your, you know, you might have
these tensions about how you

1331
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:39,360
understand the nature of God,
but I'm going to teach you

1332
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:44,920
something about the full
expression of God, he says here.

1333
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:49,000
What verse are you in?
I'm going to be in chapter 1,

1334
01:18:49,000 --> 01:18:59,120
verse 8 and 9 but unto the Son,
so this is the Father.

1335
01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:02,400
We go back.
The Father is speaking right to

1336
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:05,160
go back for that proof that you
know verse 5 for under which of

1337
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:09,320
the angels said he at any time
referring to the Father because

1338
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:11,760
it starts out the epistle starts
out with God, who at sundry

1339
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:14,720
times.
So here God is referring to the

1340
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:17,200
Father and not anyone else,
which is interesting.

1341
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:19,880
There's a violation.
So you start there.

1342
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:22,400
But then he says, but unto the
Son he's been talking about the

1343
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:24,040
angels.
And then he says, But unto the

1344
01:19:24,040 --> 01:19:31,040
Son, he the Father saith thy
throne, O God.

1345
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:38,160
So God is speaking to God is
forever and ever a scepter of

1346
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:40,720
righteousness is the scepter of
thy Kingdom.

1347
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:45,440
Thou hast loved righteousness.
And verse 9 is the the kicker

1348
01:19:45,440 --> 01:19:51,960
here and hated iniquity.
Therefore God, even thy God hath

1349
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:54,920
anointed thee with the oil of
gladness above thy fellows.

1350
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:58,280
You see that there?
Yeah, no, I see it.

1351
01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:03,240
God is speaking to his son,
saying, saying because you've

1352
01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:07,120
done all these things, you, you
are anointed.

1353
01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:09,720
You are above right.
Right.

1354
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:14,440
And he says, you, son, you are
God, and you have a God.

1355
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:19,160
You have a God God.
Wherefore God, even thy God hath

1356
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:23,600
anointed thee two separate
beings.

1357
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:26,840
So right, we said earlier, you
can't, You can distinguish

1358
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:31,160
between the persons, but not
between the beings and the

1359
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:34,160
persons.
So we have two gods here, 2

1360
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:38,960
beings interacting with each
other, and one is above and the

1361
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:43,280
other is subordinate, right?
This God down here, Jesus has a

1362
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:44,800
God.
And when we say subordinate, we

1363
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:47,640
do not mean that Jesus doesn't
matter because he's, he's lower

1364
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:50,200
than in this totem pole here.
That's not what we're saying,

1365
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:53,720
right?
Suffice it to say that God has

1366
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:55,520
positioned that their positions
here.

1367
01:20:57,320 --> 01:21:00,560
Absolutely right.
So we see that early on in

1368
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:02,360
Christianity, it's already been
established.

1369
01:21:03,520 --> 01:21:06,440
And this is this is the view
that Joseph Smith comes and

1370
01:21:06,440 --> 01:21:12,360
restores, right?
DNC 1:30 You know, the Father

1371
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:16,440
has a body of flesh and bones as
tangible as man's and the Son

1372
01:21:16,440 --> 01:21:20,800
also, right?
There's a degree of separation.

1373
01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:24,880
They both have these things, but
as Hebrews once is, here Jesus

1374
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:30,600
is in the express image of the
Father, which refers to separate

1375
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:32,480
beings.
The idea of being in the image,

1376
01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:36,400
right?
The image and likeness, image

1377
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:40,400
and likeness in Hebrew, going
back to that Hebrew context in

1378
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:45,760
Hebrew in Genesis relates to
genealogy and it's physical.

1379
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:48,120
It's a physical thing and it's
about separation.

1380
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:50,920
We and that's our further
evidence that we are children of

1381
01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:54,120
God too, because we're made in
the image and likeness of God,

1382
01:21:55,080 --> 01:21:57,040
right?
Absolutely.

1383
01:21:57,600 --> 01:21:59,800
So, yeah.
So it's definitely pointing out

1384
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:05,760
the fallacy there.
Right and and further, you know,

1385
01:22:05,760 --> 01:22:09,640
I would just submit John, John
chapter 17 going back there, we

1386
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:14,400
had read from John 17 three,
which is very anti Trinitarian.

1387
01:22:14,440 --> 01:22:18,200
It says the same thing that
we're talking about here. 17

1388
01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:21,520
three says, and this is life
eternal, that they would know

1389
01:22:21,520 --> 01:22:25,560
thee, the only true and living
God, and Jesus Christ whom thou

1390
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:28,520
has sent.
Sorry that I jumped the gun on

1391
01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:30,680
that one on you.
No, it's totally fine.

1392
01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:32,600
It's awesome.
It's good.

1393
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:34,840
And because this just adds
another layer to the

1394
01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:41,040
conversation on this specific
point, doctrinally speaking, the

1395
01:22:41,280 --> 01:22:46,320
in this verse, the being of God
is exhausted to the Father and

1396
01:22:46,320 --> 01:22:50,800
not placed upon the Son, right?
There's a degree of distinction.

1397
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:53,160
God, who is God?
There's, there's the only true

1398
01:22:53,160 --> 01:22:55,640
and living God.
It's the Father and Christ whom

1399
01:22:55,640 --> 01:23:01,200
he sent.
So we see here a very stark

1400
01:23:01,200 --> 01:23:04,880
distinction between this idea of
the one substance.

1401
01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:08,560
So when we think of substance,
just put in place the word God

1402
01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:10,800
and you have your substance.
And then when you think of

1403
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:13,040
person, you think Father, Son
and Holy Spirit.

1404
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:16,640
So if there are distinctions or
exhausting one on the other,

1405
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:19,560
it's a problem for this
Trinitarian mindset and

1406
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:27,760
worldview.
Later on in verse 21 and 23,

1407
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:31,040
Jesus is going to tell us what
oneness is.

1408
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:37,040
So the creed says that the
substance is ontological or it

1409
01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:39,320
relates to the being, the
person, the body.

1410
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:45,720
Here Jesus says something very
different, verse 21, that he's

1411
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:47,400
praying.
There's a high priestly prayer

1412
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:49,640
in John 17.
He says, verse 21, That they all

1413
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:52,800
may be one as thou, Father art
in me.

1414
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:56,880
And I envy that they also may be
one in us, that the world may

1415
01:23:56,880 --> 01:24:00,320
believe that thou has sent me.
Verse 23 And them and thou in

1416
01:24:00,320 --> 01:24:03,480
me, that they may be made
perfect in one, and that the

1417
01:24:03,480 --> 01:24:07,040
world may know that thou has
sent me, and has loved them, as

1418
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:13,280
thou has loved me.
It's hard to get around, right?

1419
01:24:13,280 --> 01:24:20,240
Like if you just take the words
of Jesus himself, it is so

1420
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:24,560
starkly clear.
The other one I'm I think of

1421
01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:26,040
right off the bat.
And if you're going to cover

1422
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:28,560
this, stop me midway so I don't
steal your Thunder, bro.

1423
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:33,440
Go for it but but.
Is is the one where where Christ

1424
01:24:33,440 --> 01:24:36,120
said why call us thou me good?
There's only one that's good and

1425
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:37,720
that's.
God, that's right.

1426
01:24:37,760 --> 01:24:40,960
Right, once again pointing to
somebody else other than

1427
01:24:40,960 --> 01:24:43,160
himself.
That's exactly right.

1428
01:24:43,440 --> 01:24:46,680
And again, if 17 three-point, is
it 3?

1429
01:24:47,040 --> 01:24:51,080
I think 17 three.
If 17 three is again, hey this

1430
01:24:51,080 --> 01:24:57,360
is life eternal to know him,
then this time you would have

1431
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:01,560
Jesus essentially throwing you
off the trail.

1432
01:25:02,240 --> 01:25:05,360
Yeah.
To find it, it just it, it,

1433
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:09,600
it's, it's riddled with holes.
It flies in the face of reason

1434
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:13,000
and Scripture, right and and
there are so many more examples

1435
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:15,640
we could give right.
You know it's it's important to

1436
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:21,440
know here in John 17 Christ,
Christ tells us that my oneness

1437
01:25:21,440 --> 01:25:25,120
with the Father is in the exact
same way as it is with the

1438
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:28,520
design for man.
I want you guys to be one in the

1439
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:30,960
exact same way.
He's not saying I want you to be

1440
01:25:30,960 --> 01:25:33,080
1 ontologically.
I don't want you to be the same

1441
01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:36,000
being I don't want you to be the
same substance right the same

1442
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:40,440
body ontology.
I want you to be one in spirit.

1443
01:25:40,440 --> 01:25:45,440
This societal unity.
I want you to have what we have,

1444
01:25:45,440 --> 01:25:47,640
right?
Joseph Smith says that an

1445
01:25:47,640 --> 01:25:51,080
everlasting covenant was made
between 3 persons, right?

1446
01:25:51,080 --> 01:25:55,320
The Father, that and he is, he
refers to the God, the creator,

1447
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:57,800
God the testator.
And I don't know, I remember the

1448
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:03,320
third how he calls it, but
referring to the spirit, the

1449
01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:05,040
God, the Redeemer and God the
testator.

1450
01:26:05,040 --> 01:26:06,840
That's what it is.
So God the creator, God the

1451
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:13,200
Redeemer, the sun and God the
testator, the spirit and right

1452
01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:16,600
so it's, it's a societal unity.
And this is what, and this

1453
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:20,440
emerges later on in
Christianity's it, it was there

1454
01:26:20,440 --> 01:26:23,560
originally and then eventually
some people pick up on this.

1455
01:26:23,920 --> 01:26:27,920
So social trinitarianism, right?
It's, it's more than acceptable

1456
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:31,280
for we as Mormons to call
ourselves Trinitarians, but we

1457
01:26:31,280 --> 01:26:34,960
are not Nicene Trinitarians.
We are social Trinitarians.

1458
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:40,720
Mean the sociality of the gods.
The Sociality of the Gods,

1459
01:26:41,160 --> 01:26:43,680
right?
And there's a good book.

1460
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:49,120
It's written by a German
Protestant scholar long time ago

1461
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:55,000
called the crucified.
I think it's the crucified

1462
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:58,200
goddess.
How this full title by Jurgen

1463
01:26:58,200 --> 01:27:00,680
Maltmann.
He he believed in the social

1464
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:04,600
Trinity as well and views the
the relationship of the Trinity

1465
01:27:04,600 --> 01:27:08,640
within the context of the cross.
It's a great for our Protestant

1466
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:11,440
friends who are looking, you
know, are curious, you know,

1467
01:27:11,440 --> 01:27:14,840
we're not alone in this.
And the Protestant world has has

1468
01:27:14,840 --> 01:27:17,520
picked in some ways has picked
up on this, particularly in

1469
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:19,320
theology.
But it's also a good read for

1470
01:27:19,320 --> 01:27:23,080
Mormons who just want to learn
more about that relationship in

1471
01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:27,120
a more theological way.
So anyway, yeah, there are all

1472
01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:32,360
those examples of oneness, this
idea beauty of social oneness

1473
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:35,880
rather than ontological.
The ontological is is impossible

1474
01:27:36,440 --> 01:27:39,400
given the fact that, you know,
Christ is manifest in the flesh

1475
01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:42,640
and there's this guy up in the
air that's separate from him,

1476
01:27:42,800 --> 01:27:44,480
right?
It doesn't make a lot of sense.

1477
01:27:46,080 --> 01:27:48,520
But yeah.
Anyway, there there's one more

1478
01:27:48,520 --> 01:27:51,960
verse we'll look at.
It's in a book that I actually

1479
01:27:51,960 --> 01:27:54,720
believe is Scripture.
It's not in the Canon.

1480
01:27:55,560 --> 01:27:58,320
OK.
So, and I wanted to do this, I

1481
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:04,240
wanted to share this one because
of the fact that it is an early

1482
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:05,480
witness.
This was written in the 1st

1483
01:28:05,480 --> 01:28:08,200
century.
It's an early witness of the

1484
01:28:08,200 --> 01:28:10,880
fact that this was being taught.
This is the understanding that

1485
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:13,480
we're, you know, it's this,
it's, it's just another witness

1486
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:16,520
outside.
It's it's an epistle written by

1487
01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:20,600
a guy called Clement, first
Clement.

1488
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:22,920
So this is part of what I guess
you could call the New Testament

1489
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,240
Apocrypha.
It's great stuff.

1490
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:28,960
And there are early people,
early believers who would have

1491
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:31,880
considered this part of the
Canon, but it did not ever get

1492
01:28:31,880 --> 01:28:34,200
fully canonized and put into our
Bibles.

1493
01:28:34,360 --> 01:28:39,440
However, he says in First
Clement chapter 59, verse four,

1494
01:28:40,480 --> 01:28:44,240
we beseech the Lord and Master
to to be our help and succor.

1495
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:47,120
Save those among us who are in
tribulation.

1496
01:28:47,600 --> 01:28:50,480
Have mercy on the lowly.
Lift up the fallen.

1497
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:54,640
Show thyself under the needy,
Heal the ungodly, convert the

1498
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:57,600
Wanderers of thy people, feed
the hungry, Release our

1499
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:00,800
prisoners, raise up the weak,
comfort to the faint, comfort

1500
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:06,240
the faint hearted.
Let all the Gentiles know that

1501
01:29:06,240 --> 01:29:09,520
thou art the God alone,
referring to the Father.

1502
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:13,280
And Jesus Christ is thy Son, and
we are thy people.

1503
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:17,040
And sheep of thy pasture says it
right there.

1504
01:29:17,040 --> 01:29:20,440
And thou art the God alone.
Wow.

1505
01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:26,600
So how did they get there right?
How did they get to this

1506
01:29:26,600 --> 01:29:32,200
Trinitarian model?
That's a good question.

1507
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:36,880
I, I want to say, I mean, I
believe it is in it is this this

1508
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:39,560
process that we've been talking
about called apostasy?

1509
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:44,280
It's just a slow overtime as you
start morphing the foundations

1510
01:29:45,600 --> 01:29:48,960
of what the faith is meant to
look like ecclesiologically,

1511
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:55,360
structurally, as you start to
get so far separated from in

1512
01:29:55,360 --> 01:30:00,680
time, from the beginnings of the
Jesus movement.

1513
01:30:02,000 --> 01:30:06,840
And as you look at things
politically, there are going to

1514
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:08,880
be some statements in some of
the later councils that just

1515
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:13,800
flat out say this regarding
opinions coming into the church.

1516
01:30:13,960 --> 01:30:19,120
And there's a mixing, right?
There's the famous quote from

1517
01:30:19,120 --> 01:30:21,640
one of the early church fathers.
What has Athens to do with

1518
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:24,800
Jerusalem?
And it's right, this idea of how

1519
01:30:24,800 --> 01:30:29,720
Greek philosophy is getting
mingled in with Christianity,

1520
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:32,880
with the Hebrew worldview and
mindset and corrupting it.

1521
01:30:33,480 --> 01:30:37,320
The Hebrew worldview and the
Greek worldview are not

1522
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:39,880
compatible.
They're two different things,

1523
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:42,160
can't mesh because they had
they.

1524
01:30:42,160 --> 01:30:45,160
They look at the world
fundamentally differently.

1525
01:30:48,560 --> 01:30:51,680
I think you're on to something
there, because the Hellenistic

1526
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:54,920
mind is is dealing in
philosophy, right?

1527
01:30:56,080 --> 01:31:00,720
Or in in those Hellenistic
schools of philosophy, the

1528
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:03,160
answer was much less important
than the question.

1529
01:31:03,480 --> 01:31:04,840
Yeah.
That's right.

1530
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:09,160
And I think we see, AII think we
see this even in Jesus's

1531
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:14,000
encounter with Pilate, right?
Where Jesus talks about truth

1532
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:16,400
and Pilate goes, what is truth,
right?

1533
01:31:16,520 --> 01:31:20,400
Yeah, he's evoking that
Hellenistic idea here.

1534
01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:24,360
And so you're right, those two
things aren't compatible because

1535
01:31:24,360 --> 01:31:29,760
the the, the, the Christian
slash Jewish idea is no, you can

1536
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:32,480
know God, you can know truth,
right?

1537
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:38,000
And the Hellenistic mind is more
concerned with simply

1538
01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:40,880
philosophizing on the question
itself, right?

1539
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:43,760
Right, exactly.
How do you live the good life

1540
01:31:44,200 --> 01:31:47,560
and that sort of thing?
So no, it would be completely

1541
01:31:47,560 --> 01:31:50,240
100% incompatible.
Yeah, right.

1542
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:53,600
It's, it's totally incompatible
and it's because it's because of

1543
01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:56,240
the problem of metaphysics.
Like metaphysically they are

1544
01:31:56,240 --> 01:31:59,040
different approaches.
And when we say metaphysics, we

1545
01:31:59,040 --> 01:32:01,520
talk about like what's
foundational, what's below the

1546
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:06,000
surface, what under what, you
know, what girds under all of

1547
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:07,800
this?
Like what's your foundation?

1548
01:32:09,160 --> 01:32:13,200
And right, so the the
Hellenistic worldview asks the

1549
01:32:13,200 --> 01:32:17,560
question, what is truth?
And then the, the Hebrew mindset

1550
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:20,440
asks who is truth, right?
These are just two different

1551
01:32:20,440 --> 01:32:23,880
ways to approach the question.
There's a there is a good book

1552
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:29,080
written by I think 2 latter
racing philosophers called Who

1553
01:32:29,080 --> 01:32:30,600
is Truth?
And, and you should.

1554
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:33,400
It's a really great read and it
talks about a lot of these

1555
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:37,520
philosophical reframing our
philosophical frameworks and

1556
01:32:37,520 --> 01:32:40,360
foundations and fundamentals to
ask questions that might be

1557
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:42,240
better suited for the Hebrew
worldview.

1558
01:32:43,200 --> 01:32:51,600
In some ways the then the same
Christianity model for, for, for

1559
01:32:54,320 --> 01:32:57,760
for the sectarian Christians
would be more comfortable to a

1560
01:32:57,760 --> 01:33:01,840
Hellenistic mind, would it not?
It's incomprehensible.

1561
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:06,320
It lends itself to debate.
It lends itself to to thinking

1562
01:33:06,320 --> 01:33:09,560
about it, right?
Precisely, and understand that

1563
01:33:09,640 --> 01:33:11,920
and understand that the Gentiles
have taken over Christianity at

1564
01:33:11,920 --> 01:33:13,880
this point.
Right.

1565
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:17,160
The, the Gentile movement has
become what it has become and it

1566
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:20,160
is, is massive.
The gospel has been has been at

1567
01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:22,920
this point given over to the
Gentiles and they're doing what

1568
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:25,960
they're doing.
And we're seeing a sharp decline

1569
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:29,200
in Jewish participation.
You know, they're a lot of those

1570
01:33:29,200 --> 01:33:33,160
original members are, are dead.
And there were so many Gentiles

1571
01:33:33,160 --> 01:33:38,880
replacing them just by virtue of
conversions that eventually that

1572
01:33:38,880 --> 01:33:44,760
mindset, the apostate mindset of
Gentile, Gentilic or Gentile

1573
01:33:45,200 --> 01:33:48,080
worldview is going to take over.
And so that's what Hellenistic.

1574
01:33:48,360 --> 01:33:50,960
Yeah, Hellenistic.
OK.

1575
01:33:51,520 --> 01:33:54,440
So no.
Yeah, that I think that kind of

1576
01:33:54,440 --> 01:33:56,840
answers the question, right.
I think it would have been

1577
01:33:56,840 --> 01:33:59,720
comfortable for.
And again, if you're looking at

1578
01:33:59,720 --> 01:34:04,640
consolidating power, you're not,
you're not necessarily always

1579
01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:07,120
concerned with truth, right?
You're concerned with

1580
01:34:07,320 --> 01:34:09,880
consolidating.
So it would lend itself to

1581
01:34:09,880 --> 01:34:11,840
looking at that.
I don't think it's unreasonable

1582
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:15,440
to to reach a conclusion of
saying, well, he's got to have

1583
01:34:15,440 --> 01:34:19,200
something that's going to appeal
to this group of people who are

1584
01:34:19,200 --> 01:34:23,720
used to thinking in one way.
Exactly, You know, and, and as

1585
01:34:23,720 --> 01:34:26,800
we said, the the foundation here
is in a council of bishops.

1586
01:34:26,800 --> 01:34:34,240
It's not in Revelation, it's not
in in the the ecclesiological

1587
01:34:34,240 --> 01:34:36,240
design of the apostle
apostleship.

1588
01:34:37,320 --> 01:34:39,440
It's wholly separate.
It's people debating and they're

1589
01:34:39,440 --> 01:34:43,920
trying to decide questions.
Again, that's not entirely wrong

1590
01:34:43,920 --> 01:34:46,760
or bad.
Greek philosophy is not wholly

1591
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:49,240
bad.
It can be short sighted,

1592
01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:53,480
especially when it's meant to
replace the Hebrew worldview and

1593
01:34:53,480 --> 01:34:55,440
mindset that God revealed
himself in.

1594
01:34:55,800 --> 01:34:58,880
Again, great philosophy ought to
inform us, not be our defined.

1595
01:34:58,880 --> 01:35:01,520
It's a great way of teaching
people how to think, not what to

1596
01:35:01,520 --> 01:35:04,760
think.
Yes, precisely perfect.

1597
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:08,240
Give you some mechanism.
So anyway, yeah, so that's kind

1598
01:35:08,240 --> 01:35:11,320
of the foundation of the Trinity
and and why it just doesn't

1599
01:35:11,320 --> 01:35:17,400
really work.
So we'll finish out the rest of

1600
01:35:17,400 --> 01:35:18,760
the Nicene Creed here real
quick.

1601
01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:23,920
The the, the creed reads who
because of men, referring to

1602
01:35:24,680 --> 01:35:31,720
Jesus, because of men and
because of our salvation came

1603
01:35:31,720 --> 01:35:36,960
down and became Incarnate and
became man and suffered and rose

1604
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:39,880
again on the third day and
ascended to the heavens and will

1605
01:35:39,880 --> 01:35:41,920
come to judge the living and the
dead.

1606
01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:44,360
Amen.
I think we can believe in all

1607
01:35:44,360 --> 01:35:46,880
that, right?
Praise God.

1608
01:35:47,280 --> 01:35:49,680
We believe in the incarnation,
right?

1609
01:35:49,680 --> 01:35:52,800
That's the condescension of God
in first Nephi 11.

1610
01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:57,520
We believe in all those things
and we believe in that

1611
01:35:57,520 --> 01:36:00,240
salvation.
So we also it says, and then

1612
01:36:00,240 --> 01:36:02,520
they also believe, and in the
Holy Spirit.

1613
01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:06,800
But As for those who say there
was when he was not, and before

1614
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:10,560
being born He was not, and that
he came into existence out of

1615
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:13,280
nothing, or who assert that the
Son of God is a different

1616
01:36:13,280 --> 01:36:17,040
hypostasis or substance, or
created, or a subject to

1617
01:36:17,040 --> 01:36:20,520
alteration or change, these the
Catholic and Apostolic Church

1618
01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:24,600
anathematizes.
So anathematize, that's in a

1619
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:30,080
word from from Greek anathema.
It appears in the Bible.

1620
01:36:30,160 --> 01:36:33,040
If you've ever heard
Protestants, you know they'll

1621
01:36:33,040 --> 01:36:36,840
read that passage in Galatians
that says even if we are an

1622
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:39,360
Angel from heaven should preach
a different gospel to you other

1623
01:36:39,360 --> 01:36:42,200
than when we proclaim let him be
accursed, right.

1624
01:36:42,200 --> 01:36:44,680
They try to use it as a gotcha
to say, oh, well, Moroni brought

1625
01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:45,880
a gospel.
It's another gospel.

1626
01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:48,720
No, he didn't bring another
gospel.

1627
01:36:48,720 --> 01:36:53,680
But anyway, the word, when it
says let him be accursed, that's

1628
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:57,480
that word anathema, that's
that's being used here.

1629
01:36:58,040 --> 01:37:04,280
Apostolic Church anathematizes.
So it means old complete

1630
01:37:04,280 --> 01:37:08,320
separation, cut off, accursed,
separated from God.

1631
01:37:08,560 --> 01:37:10,840
You're a son of perdition,
right?

1632
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:12,800
You are absolutely evil.
So if you believe any of these

1633
01:37:12,800 --> 01:37:15,680
things, and obviously they were
responding to the Aryan

1634
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:19,680
controversy here, the idea that
the son didn't always exist,

1635
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:21,200
right?
There was a time when he was

1636
01:37:21,200 --> 01:37:24,760
not.
That is an anathema.

1637
01:37:26,600 --> 01:37:29,760
So that's kind of just the end.
There is not a lot we have to

1638
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:31,640
really go into on the end of
that.

1639
01:37:32,160 --> 01:37:35,400
But I, I, I do want to get
something straight here.

1640
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:37,520
So we're looking at the Nicene
Creed in Trinitairy, the

1641
01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:42,080
Trinity, Trinitarianism and
something straight that I think

1642
01:37:42,080 --> 01:37:45,600
is important.
Trinitarianism, the doctrine

1643
01:37:45,600 --> 01:37:47,800
that comes out of this council
is not modalism.

1644
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:51,360
A lot of, you know, a lot of us
will sometimes confuse because

1645
01:37:51,360 --> 01:37:53,040
trinitarianism doesn't make any
sense.

1646
01:37:53,400 --> 01:37:59,840
Explain what modalism is.
OK, modalism is the idea that

1647
01:37:59,840 --> 01:38:05,560
God exists, is there's one God,
but he exists in three different

1648
01:38:05,600 --> 01:38:09,240
modes is the basic best way to
describe it.

1649
01:38:09,800 --> 01:38:12,360
We have Oneness Pentecostals
that still perpetuate this

1650
01:38:12,360 --> 01:38:13,960
belief to this day, and there
are others.

1651
01:38:14,400 --> 01:38:17,400
Unitarians.
Unitarianism, although now it,

1652
01:38:17,680 --> 01:38:20,320
you know, Unitarian Universalism
is about liberal Christianity.

1653
01:38:20,320 --> 01:38:21,480
It's not even Christianity
anymore.

1654
01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:24,040
Unitarian Unitarianism was
originally a form of

1655
01:38:24,040 --> 01:38:25,360
Christianity.
That said there's just the one

1656
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:30,520
God, the son is subordinate.
There are some Unitarians that

1657
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:33,120
well, no, sorry.
So there's Unitarianism, there's

1658
01:38:33,120 --> 01:38:34,640
modalism.
Those are different.

1659
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:36,560
Excuse me, I'm confounding ideas
here.

1660
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:41,040
But anyway, modalism, basically
another way you could describe

1661
01:38:41,040 --> 01:38:46,560
it is God is God, but he has a
different masks and sometimes he

1662
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:50,040
puts on this mask that's the
father and he shows up and he's

1663
01:38:50,040 --> 01:38:51,480
the father and he's got his mask
on.

1664
01:38:51,480 --> 01:38:54,040
He's doing his fatherly things
And sometimes he comes down and

1665
01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:56,640
he puts the the mask on and he's
the son.

1666
01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,440
It's Halloween everyday, you
know, you never know what you're

1667
01:38:59,440 --> 01:39:03,440
going to get.
Check, check.

1668
01:39:03,640 --> 01:39:06,200
Or a split personality.
One or the other.

1669
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:09,240
You know, maybe or cross
dressing, I don't know, you

1670
01:39:09,240 --> 01:39:13,440
know, but maybe not as a gender.
Legender, but I'll get some hate

1671
01:39:13,440 --> 01:39:14,760
mail off that one.
I'll like you.

1672
01:39:15,200 --> 01:39:18,040
Most certainly probably would.
I might too.

1673
01:39:19,000 --> 01:39:20,880
I'm here for oh, look, I've said
this before.

1674
01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:24,080
If you're going to write me hate
mail, just make sure it's smart

1675
01:39:24,080 --> 01:39:26,800
and witty because all of it's
going to be compiled into a book

1676
01:39:26,800 --> 01:39:29,320
called All the Right People Say
All the Right Things About Me.

1677
01:39:30,200 --> 01:39:32,840
So just make it smart and witty.
You're aiming for something,

1678
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:35,000
it'll be published one day, so
just do a good job.

1679
01:39:35,000 --> 01:39:35,640
It's all.
Amazing.

1680
01:39:36,360 --> 01:39:38,200
There we go.
All right.

1681
01:39:38,360 --> 01:39:40,800
So that's that's what I see in
council.

1682
01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:44,720
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And and I did what as we

1683
01:39:44,720 --> 01:39:46,600
finished with the council, I
wanted to say this.

1684
01:39:46,600 --> 01:39:48,400
It's very clear.
So it is not modalism.

1685
01:39:48,400 --> 01:39:50,800
These are two different things.
A lot of Latter Day Saints,

1686
01:39:50,800 --> 01:39:54,840
Mormons will confuse modalism
and Trinity, the Trinity, and

1687
01:39:54,840 --> 01:39:56,440
it's because the Trinity doesn't
make sense.

1688
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:58,840
And so when you're trying to
understand it, like we said

1689
01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:01,400
earlier, we're talking about
Lutheran satire video, you try

1690
01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:05,920
to define Trinitarianism and you
end up constructing A heresy and

1691
01:40:05,920 --> 01:40:08,160
and that's right.
So that's fair.

1692
01:40:08,160 --> 01:40:10,840
But so I do think it's saying
something here.

1693
01:40:13,480 --> 01:40:16,920
I understand the majority of
Christians are tend to be

1694
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:20,360
functional modalists, right?
If you were to really press them

1695
01:40:20,360 --> 01:40:23,080
on defining who God is, they
would describe it in a

1696
01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:25,320
modalistic describe him in a
modalistic manner.

1697
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:30,240
It's really saying something
when the theology you create

1698
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:34,160
makes people incapable of truly
understanding who God is and end

1699
01:40:34,160 --> 01:40:37,960
up reject and end up accepting A
heresy because they can't

1700
01:40:37,960 --> 01:40:40,640
understand the doctrine and
you've been incapable of

1701
01:40:40,920 --> 01:40:42,600
producing it to them.
And that's because of the

1702
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:45,960
complicated, illogical language
of this formulation that we get

1703
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:50,360
here in the Nicene Creed and
what's coming next in these

1704
01:40:50,360 --> 01:40:52,400
other, these, all these other
councils that are going to come

1705
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:55,000
out of Christianity.
And I, and I want to say this,

1706
01:40:55,080 --> 01:40:58,840
your theology shouldn't create
heretics, it should create

1707
01:40:58,840 --> 01:41:02,160
Saints.
And this theology creates

1708
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:05,560
heretics, which is not the
disparage of the many people who

1709
01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:08,200
are saintly and are good who are
in Christianity.

1710
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:12,880
But when you describe God this
way, you describe it in a, in a

1711
01:41:12,880 --> 01:41:16,400
heretical way, in a false way.
And by her heresy we mean false.

1712
01:41:16,560 --> 01:41:18,920
It is not true.
And our goal and design is to

1713
01:41:18,920 --> 01:41:20,920
help people to know God and to
know God ourselves.

1714
01:41:22,880 --> 01:41:26,640
And so. 100%.
I think that's just got to be

1715
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:29,760
our foundation.
I think you, I think you're 100%

1716
01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:33,400
correct.
So that's, that's kind of an

1717
01:41:33,400 --> 01:41:35,560
Essene creed.
It set things, sets things up

1718
01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:38,240
for an unknowable God, right,
the Trinity.

1719
01:41:39,160 --> 01:41:45,680
And then it it also lends itself
then as kind of an outgrowth to

1720
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:47,640
make sense of the Trinity
modalism.

1721
01:41:49,080 --> 01:41:52,560
Right, and and and other views
and other views, but yes, that's

1722
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:54,640
a big one that commonly comes.
Out.

1723
01:41:54,640 --> 01:41:56,960
Is that pretty much where than
the seeing, than the seeing

1724
01:41:56,960 --> 01:42:00,280
council stops?
Is that where they say OK, we'll

1725
01:42:00,280 --> 01:42:03,440
come back for another council
now to dive into something else?

1726
01:42:03,480 --> 01:42:05,760
So there are a few other
decisions that come out of it,

1727
01:42:05,760 --> 01:42:09,800
one that I want to highlight
that's the most important and

1728
01:42:09,840 --> 01:42:12,160
secondary to this, at least in
my view.

1729
01:42:12,920 --> 01:42:17,880
So early on, there's the Court
of Decimen controversy is, is

1730
01:42:17,880 --> 01:42:19,440
another early Christian
controversy.

1731
01:42:19,440 --> 01:42:22,480
That's just, it's going to be
decided at this council that's

1732
01:42:22,480 --> 01:42:27,680
arising up in these, you know,
300 years of the first 3

1733
01:42:27,680 --> 01:42:31,200
centuries, right, Right.
So what is Court of Decimenism?

1734
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:32,880
What does court of Decimenism
even mean?

1735
01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:34,080
Right.
I you.

1736
01:42:34,280 --> 01:42:38,200
Got me.
And it is a word like most

1737
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:39,520
people know.
I didn't really know it.

1738
01:42:40,760 --> 01:42:44,200
So court of decimen is just a
really fancy word.

1739
01:42:44,720 --> 01:42:50,600
It comes from Latin quarto
decima or a decima, however you

1740
01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:52,880
want to pronounce it, and that
word just is a Latin word.

1741
01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:56,000
That means 14.
They have such a complicated way

1742
01:42:56,000 --> 01:42:58,840
to say 14.
I don't know why Quarto decima.

1743
01:43:02,840 --> 01:43:05,760
Once again, there's there's a
point which I go, I'm proud to

1744
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:07,280
be an American, and that's one
of them.

1745
01:43:07,280 --> 01:43:09,720
I don't have to spend 10 minutes
to say 14th.

1746
01:43:10,080 --> 01:43:12,560
That's right.
I got that going for me.

1747
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:18,120
So yeah, you have the the four
10s, right Quarto Decima 4 tens

1748
01:43:19,040 --> 01:43:22,440
14.
And so that 14 is in reference

1749
01:43:22,440 --> 01:43:26,320
to something pretty specific.
So it's this idea 14 refers to

1750
01:43:26,320 --> 01:43:31,360
the 14th of Nissan.
Nissan is a month in the Hebrew

1751
01:43:31,360 --> 01:43:34,240
calendar.
It's not from Hebrew, the word

1752
01:43:34,240 --> 01:43:37,640
itself, but it's the Hebrew
month in which the Passover is

1753
01:43:37,640 --> 01:43:41,320
celebrated.
So Passover begins in the Hebrew

1754
01:43:41,320 --> 01:43:48,880
calendar on the 14th, and it's
on early on in in Christianity,

1755
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:52,240
there was this belief, this, you
know, we talked about with the

1756
01:43:52,240 --> 01:43:55,880
book of the Hebrews.
A lot of Israelite believers are

1757
01:43:55,880 --> 01:43:58,240
still there and then the
Gentiles end up taking over.

1758
01:43:58,480 --> 01:44:04,320
But these early Christians are
perpetuating these Hebrew things

1759
01:44:04,320 --> 01:44:06,120
because they're Hebrews.
And that's what Hebrews do.

1760
01:44:06,120 --> 01:44:10,920
Israelites do the things that
Israelites do and so one of

1761
01:44:10,920 --> 01:44:14,000
those things is the Passover.
They keep that Passover on the

1762
01:44:14,000 --> 01:44:19,120
14th of Nissan and then they
also because of the fact that we

1763
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:24,160
know Christ was, was crucified
and resurrected on this end

1764
01:44:24,160 --> 01:44:26,280
during this time period of the
Passover.

1765
01:44:28,200 --> 01:44:35,240
Some of the early believers
believed that we ought to

1766
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:38,640
celebrate the resurrection of
our Lord on the day that we

1767
01:44:38,640 --> 01:44:41,760
celebrate the Passover because
right Scripture testifies that

1768
01:44:41,760 --> 01:44:44,160
Christ is our Passover lamb.
He's our Paschal lamb.

1769
01:44:44,800 --> 01:44:48,040
And so they see the symbolism
what, what the Passover is meant

1770
01:44:48,040 --> 01:44:51,720
to symbolize being Christ
himself saying we want to

1771
01:44:51,720 --> 01:44:56,160
celebrate the Passover and we
want to be able to to celebrate

1772
01:44:56,160 --> 01:44:58,320
the Lord's resurrection on the
same day.

1773
01:44:58,320 --> 01:45:00,800
We want to have this.
This is what this holiday is all

1774
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:04,560
about.
The Passover is about Jesus and

1775
01:45:06,240 --> 01:45:12,120
there's some disagreement with
all of these things in the the

1776
01:45:12,160 --> 01:45:15,160
this time period in the church.
Now I will, I do want to say

1777
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:18,280
before I go to that, amongst
those who held this belief of

1778
01:45:18,280 --> 01:45:21,080
the court of Decimen is
primarily the Eastern, the Asian

1779
01:45:21,080 --> 01:45:23,960
churches that hold to this
because that's where the most of

1780
01:45:23,960 --> 01:45:28,440
the original Israelite believers
were concentrated.

1781
01:45:28,960 --> 01:45:33,760
And so amongst those who held
this belief was Polycarp.

1782
01:45:33,880 --> 01:45:36,960
Polycarp's a Bishop who's
actually a disciple of John the

1783
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:40,520
Beloved.
So he's a contemporary, not, not

1784
01:45:40,520 --> 01:45:43,520
an eyewitness to all of the
events with Jesus, but knew John

1785
01:45:43,520 --> 01:45:50,240
was taught by John, was
discipled by John, right.

1786
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:53,320
And so Polycarp held this
belief, and this is what he says

1787
01:45:53,880 --> 01:45:56,520
about why he says This is why we
do this.

1788
01:45:56,520 --> 01:46:00,440
He says we observe the exact
day, neither adding nor taking

1789
01:46:00,440 --> 01:46:05,480
away, using that revelation. 22
For in Asia also great lights

1790
01:46:05,480 --> 01:46:08,480
have fallen asleep, referring to
those the forbearers of the

1791
01:46:08,480 --> 01:46:11,760
Christian faith, the apostles,
which shall rise again on the

1792
01:46:11,760 --> 01:46:14,800
day of the Lord's coming.
Among these are Philip, one of

1793
01:46:14,800 --> 01:46:18,840
the 12 apostles who fell asleep
in Hierapolis, and his two aged

1794
01:46:18,840 --> 01:46:21,840
virgin daughters, and another
daughter who lived in the Holy

1795
01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:26,240
Spirit and now rests at Ephesus.
And moreover, John, who was both

1796
01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:30,440
a witness and a teacher, my
disciple, right, who reclined

1797
01:46:30,440 --> 01:46:34,280
upon the bosom of the Lord, and
being a priest wore the

1798
01:46:34,280 --> 01:46:40,320
sacredotal plate.
All these observe the 14th day

1799
01:46:40,320 --> 01:46:45,320
of the Passover according to the
Gospel, deviating in no respect,

1800
01:46:46,640 --> 01:46:51,760
but following the rule of faith.
And I also, here's another.

1801
01:46:51,760 --> 01:46:56,240
This is a testament.
So this is actually Pop

1802
01:46:56,240 --> 01:46:59,040
polycrates, who's writing here.
I said it was Polycarp, but he

1803
01:46:59,040 --> 01:47:02,600
was testifying of how Polycarp
had had believed in this.

1804
01:47:02,600 --> 01:47:06,040
Here he said, and I also
polycrates the least of you, and

1805
01:47:06,040 --> 01:47:08,600
he's alive at the time of this
Council of Nicaea.

1806
01:47:08,840 --> 01:47:11,360
The least of you all do
according to the tradition of my

1807
01:47:11,360 --> 01:47:14,200
relatives, some of whom I have
closely followed.

1808
01:47:14,640 --> 01:47:17,280
For seven of my relatives were
bishops, and I am the 8th.

1809
01:47:17,600 --> 01:47:20,560
And my relatives always observe
the day when the people put away

1810
01:47:20,560 --> 01:47:24,680
the leaven that is the Passover.
I therefore, brethren, have

1811
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:27,920
lived 65 years in the Lord, have
met with the brethren throughout

1812
01:47:27,920 --> 01:47:30,200
the world, and have gone through
every Holy Scripture.

1813
01:47:30,440 --> 01:47:34,280
And not affrighted by terrifying
words for those greater than I

1814
01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:37,240
have said, we ought to obey God
rather than man.

1815
01:47:37,720 --> 01:47:39,720
Very bold declaration right
there, right?

1816
01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:42,320
I don't care what you guys are
going to tell me about this.

1817
01:47:42,320 --> 01:47:45,640
I know.
I know what the what the

1818
01:47:45,640 --> 01:47:47,920
Scripture says.
I know what the testimony of

1819
01:47:47,920 --> 01:47:51,960
those closest to the apostles
said, and I know that we are

1820
01:47:51,960 --> 01:47:54,880
supposed to obey God over man.
I'm going to go with the Lord on

1821
01:47:54,880 --> 01:48:00,400
this.
Now the question is, why is this

1822
01:48:00,400 --> 01:48:04,120
controversial?
Why the what's going to end up

1823
01:48:04,120 --> 01:48:07,600
being decided is that the Nicene
Council is going to condemn the

1824
01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:11,080
celebration and observance of
the Passover make Easter be

1825
01:48:11,080 --> 01:48:14,440
celebrated on Sunday regardless
of whether or not that was on

1826
01:48:14,440 --> 01:48:17,800
Passover it had be after right
It has to be on a Sunday.

1827
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:19,600
It can't be on the days
according to the Hebrew

1828
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:22,880
calendar.
Why is all this happening right?

1829
01:48:22,880 --> 01:48:26,040
Why did Victor first the Pope of
the Pope or the Bishop of Rome

1830
01:48:26,040 --> 01:48:28,240
attempt excommunicate?
He attempted to excommunicate

1831
01:48:28,560 --> 01:48:31,880
all the churches in Asia who
held to this belief any church,

1832
01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:33,760
every single member.
If you believed in the court of

1833
01:48:33,760 --> 01:48:37,720
deciminism or the idea of the
14th of Nissan Passover as the

1834
01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:41,600
as the Passover and as the date
of the celebration of the

1835
01:48:41,600 --> 01:48:45,000
resurrection of the Lord, you
are hair, you are anathema.

1836
01:48:45,080 --> 01:48:50,000
You're to be anathematized.
Why Constantine says this, this

1837
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:53,480
is pre council.
This is something interesting

1838
01:48:53,480 --> 01:48:59,080
that I think is important to
note, Constantine says.

1839
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:02,280
And first of all, it appeared an
unworthy thing, that in the

1840
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:06,720
celebration of this most holy
feast, that we should follow the

1841
01:49:06,720 --> 01:49:10,560
practice of the Jews, who have
impiously defiled their hands

1842
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:14,240
with enormous sin, and are
therefore deservedly afflicted

1843
01:49:14,360 --> 01:49:18,400
with blindness of soul.
For we have it in our power, if

1844
01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:21,760
we abandoned their custom, to
prolong the due observance of

1845
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:25,840
this ordinance to future ages by
a truer order, which we have

1846
01:49:25,840 --> 01:49:28,480
preserved from the very day of
the Passion until the present

1847
01:49:28,480 --> 01:49:31,000
time.
Let us then have nothing in

1848
01:49:31,000 --> 01:49:33,760
common with the detestable
Jewish crowd.

1849
01:49:33,960 --> 01:49:37,520
For we have received from our
Savior a different way, a course

1850
01:49:37,520 --> 01:49:40,560
at once legitimate and honorable
lies open to our most holy

1851
01:49:40,560 --> 01:49:43,080
religion.
Beloved brethren, let us with

1852
01:49:43,080 --> 01:49:46,440
one consent adopt this course,
and withdraw ourselves from all

1853
01:49:46,440 --> 01:49:53,840
participation in their baseness.
This isn't, this is important

1854
01:49:57,560 --> 01:49:59,520
the this is all politically
motivated.

1855
01:50:01,360 --> 01:50:05,800
They don't want to look anything
like these, these base Jews,

1856
01:50:06,120 --> 01:50:09,040
right?
And this is really when any

1857
01:50:09,040 --> 01:50:12,600
semblance or relation, and we've
talked about the idea of Greek

1858
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:14,440
philosophy.
This is when any semblance to

1859
01:50:14,440 --> 01:50:17,720
Hebrew thought or Hebrew
worldview or Hebrew identity

1860
01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:22,560
becomes severed from the church.
They hated Jews and that was the

1861
01:50:22,560 --> 01:50:26,320
motivation for changing this
specific belief that was carried

1862
01:50:26,320 --> 01:50:29,640
on from the earliest times.
In direct conflict.

1863
01:50:30,560 --> 01:50:35,640
I argue with Exodus 12/24, First
Corinthians 58, Leviticus 23,

1864
01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:38,480
which say that this feast is to
be kept forever throughout your

1865
01:50:38,480 --> 01:50:40,360
generations.
First Corinthians 58 says that

1866
01:50:40,360 --> 01:50:43,520
because Jesus is resurrected,
therefore let us keep the feast

1867
01:50:43,520 --> 01:50:47,920
of the Passover, right?
And and this is what's

1868
01:50:47,920 --> 01:50:51,000
happening, right?
So, and I think that's just

1869
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:54,320
another important decision that
a lot of big controversy, maybe

1870
01:50:54,320 --> 01:50:59,920
not so much with regards to the
nature of God, but in a way with

1871
01:51:00,920 --> 01:51:04,560
with knowing God because right.
Why do the why were the feasts

1872
01:51:04,560 --> 01:51:05,680
important?
Why was the Passover?

1873
01:51:05,680 --> 01:51:08,640
Because it was the time which
with which you met God Himself,

1874
01:51:09,240 --> 01:51:12,040
the appointed times of meeting
so.

1875
01:51:12,520 --> 01:51:14,200
Got you.
No, that makes that makes sense.

1876
01:51:16,040 --> 01:51:21,760
And again, in in an effort to
consolidate power, you cannot

1877
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:26,240
have anything outside.
And look, by this time, I

1878
01:51:26,240 --> 01:51:33,800
imagine that the Levant where
modern day Israel is, it's it,

1879
01:51:33,920 --> 01:51:37,480
it's an afterthought to the
larger Roman Empire, right?

1880
01:51:37,920 --> 01:51:41,240
I mean, they essentially burned
down the temple at some point,

1881
01:51:41,240 --> 01:51:43,720
destroy it and like, OK, you
guys are done, right?

1882
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:46,440
Like we're, we're, we're over
this.

1883
01:51:47,320 --> 01:51:50,600
And so I do think that it's
interesting to note that I think

1884
01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:53,240
this again, is one of those
things where it's, it's trying

1885
01:51:53,240 --> 01:51:56,040
to coalesce.
I mean, look, I, I keep the

1886
01:51:56,040 --> 01:51:59,040
Sabbath on Sunday.
I if I'm not mistaken, you keep

1887
01:51:59,040 --> 01:52:00,920
it on Saturday, right?
That's right.

1888
01:52:01,920 --> 01:52:04,000
We can get along just fine.
Absolutely.

1889
01:52:04,680 --> 01:52:08,200
And and I, and so you got to
wonder what, what the impetus

1890
01:52:08,200 --> 01:52:11,960
was there, because it doesn't
make sense unless political

1891
01:52:11,960 --> 01:52:15,760
power and being homogeneous is,
is the goal.

1892
01:52:16,440 --> 01:52:19,040
Right, precisely, that's exactly
what's happening.

1893
01:52:19,040 --> 01:52:23,760
We've got to have homogeneity.
We've got to be the same and

1894
01:52:23,760 --> 01:52:28,320
we're going to force that on
anyone and everyone, right.

1895
01:52:28,760 --> 01:52:34,640
You know, we, you know, ideally
we are united in essentials and

1896
01:52:35,080 --> 01:52:37,640
unity have have and unity in
that.

1897
01:52:37,640 --> 01:52:41,880
And then in non essentials,
there's liberty, right?

1898
01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:46,680
And you know, there there is
room for disagreement with

1899
01:52:46,680 --> 01:52:50,320
certain ideas, sure, and there
but there's not and there is

1900
01:52:50,320 --> 01:52:52,280
definitely not room for
disagreement on certain other

1901
01:52:52,280 --> 01:52:56,600
things.
That being said, yeah, political

1902
01:52:56,600 --> 01:52:59,960
expediency is never a reason
for.

1903
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:02,440
No, no.
Beliefs.

1904
01:53:03,360 --> 01:53:06,200
Good stuff, all right?
What else comes out of the

1905
01:53:06,200 --> 01:53:10,240
Nicene Council?
I think that's it in terms of

1906
01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:13,360
the important, important stuff.
So there's some other cannons

1907
01:53:13,360 --> 01:53:18,480
about establishing like certain
positions and putting people in

1908
01:53:18,480 --> 01:53:20,000
certain places.
They're not important

1909
01:53:20,000 --> 01:53:22,080
theologically so.
Nope.

1910
01:53:22,440 --> 01:53:24,760
OK, so that wraps up the Nicene
Council.

1911
01:53:25,040 --> 01:53:29,680
Exactly.
So getting into the next

1912
01:53:29,680 --> 01:53:33,840
council, I'll, I'll just say
this at the beginning about all

1913
01:53:33,840 --> 01:53:36,320
of these earlier councils,
especially like the first two or

1914
01:53:36,320 --> 01:53:41,160
three, that is very important as
well in, in, in all of this

1915
01:53:41,320 --> 01:53:44,840
because of how important these
councils are and declarations

1916
01:53:44,840 --> 01:53:48,320
are to Christianity as a whole.
There's not exactly lengthy

1917
01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:51,560
documentation of all the going
ONS of these events.

1918
01:53:51,560 --> 01:53:53,560
So we don't have all the
transcripts, you know, we can't

1919
01:53:53,560 --> 01:53:55,760
see everything.
There are a few letters we have,

1920
01:53:56,240 --> 01:53:59,000
you know, and a few of the cans.
We know some of the decisions,

1921
01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:03,320
but a good amount of what we
have is from later traditions of

1922
01:54:03,320 --> 01:54:05,640
other councils who said this is
what they said back in the day,

1923
01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:11,000
you know, so for example,
exactly right.

1924
01:54:11,520 --> 01:54:13,280
So for example, like this next
council we're going to be

1925
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:16,320
looking at some said ended in
the production of a new creed.

1926
01:54:16,640 --> 01:54:18,480
Some say otherwise.
There's disagreement.

1927
01:54:19,760 --> 01:54:22,720
There's a better, if you go to
the Papal encyclicals online

1928
01:54:22,720 --> 01:54:25,440
database, there's a better
introduction to that idea of

1929
01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:28,800
some people who have tackled
that idea on the Council of

1930
01:54:28,800 --> 01:54:30,720
Constantinople.
Do you want to go there?

1931
01:54:30,720 --> 01:54:34,280
You can go there but.
I was going to say, I'm going to

1932
01:54:34,280 --> 01:54:37,280
run right over the papal
encyclical right after I'm done

1933
01:54:37,280 --> 01:54:37,960
with this.
I don't know.

1934
01:54:37,960 --> 01:54:40,400
Absolutely.
Hey, look, if you're not reading

1935
01:54:40,400 --> 01:54:43,440
papal encyclicals for fun, what
are you doing with your life?

1936
01:54:44,000 --> 01:54:44,440
Right?
No.

1937
01:54:44,600 --> 01:54:45,840
Right, right.
Right.

1938
01:54:46,040 --> 01:54:50,320
Yeah, No, I'm.
Yeah, I probably should, but I'm

1939
01:54:50,320 --> 01:54:53,000
not sure I'm going to.
I don't know I'm.

1940
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:55,080
Going to take your.
I'm going to take your word for

1941
01:54:55,080 --> 01:54:56,480
it, Braxton.
I think you're good.

1942
01:54:56,920 --> 01:55:00,120
Yes.
I don't want to cheapen all that

1943
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:02,200
work by checking your homework.
I think you're good.

1944
01:55:02,200 --> 01:55:05,280
That's right, you know, to some
it's given to know and others

1945
01:55:05,280 --> 01:55:07,320
it's given to believe on their
words as the scripture.

1946
01:55:07,360 --> 01:55:10,480
Says Check.
I'm just going to believe.

1947
01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:12,160
I think we're good.
I trust you.

1948
01:55:12,160 --> 01:55:14,080
I know you.
You're a man of integrity.

1949
01:55:14,440 --> 01:55:16,440
I am not going to subject myself
to that.

1950
01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:19,640
Amen.
Well, listen, if I could drive a

1951
01:55:19,640 --> 01:55:21,640
nail through my head instead of
having to read some of that

1952
01:55:21,640 --> 01:55:23,120
stuff, I would be more than
happy to.

1953
01:55:23,720 --> 01:55:30,240
But anyway, yeah, so.
Do that to my friends on this

1954
01:55:30,240 --> 01:55:36,040
podcast too, like I made, I made
Justin Frankham, God, God bless

1955
01:55:36,040 --> 01:55:37,320
him.
I mean, that's all I can say.

1956
01:55:37,320 --> 01:55:40,400
He like read through the whole
Nemahal library, right?

1957
01:55:40,400 --> 01:55:44,760
And just picked it apart.
And I do that to him, to you.

1958
01:55:44,760 --> 01:55:47,640
I'm like, why don't you go check
out the papal and encyclical?

1959
01:55:47,680 --> 01:55:49,680
That that, that ought to be some
good stuff.

1960
01:55:50,040 --> 01:55:52,840
Yeah, you know, I wrote like
6000 words on this thing to

1961
01:55:52,840 --> 01:55:56,160
prepare for this.
So, you know, it was a lot hours

1962
01:55:56,160 --> 01:55:58,120
and hours work.
I could have done more and I

1963
01:55:58,120 --> 01:56:00,760
didn't want.
To I don't blame you.

1964
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:02,600
I think you've done your due
diligence.

1965
01:56:03,000 --> 01:56:05,040
All right, so what's the name of
this next council?

1966
01:56:05,800 --> 01:56:08,200
The next Council is the Council
of Constantinople because it

1967
01:56:08,200 --> 01:56:10,480
occurs in.
Constantinople.

1968
01:56:10,600 --> 01:56:13,760
That's right.
So modern day Turkey in

1969
01:56:13,760 --> 01:56:17,800
Istanbul, this is in the year
381.

1970
01:56:18,080 --> 01:56:22,120
So just like what?
So the first one, first council

1971
01:56:22,120 --> 01:56:27,800
in Nicea was in, what did we
say?

1972
01:56:27,800 --> 01:56:31,360
I can't remember 3 or 25.
Yeah.

1973
01:56:31,360 --> 01:56:37,240
So, you know, 60 years later.
They're actually moving on.

1974
01:56:37,640 --> 01:56:39,320
I mean, they're liking the
Council model.

1975
01:56:39,640 --> 01:56:40,800
That's right.
They're, they're good.

1976
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:43,280
Like it's pretty some
successive, quick successive

1977
01:56:43,280 --> 01:56:51,280
councils here and and I and I
and yeah, I think it, I think it

1978
01:56:51,280 --> 01:56:52,840
departs in Christianity in some
other ways.

1979
01:56:53,240 --> 01:56:56,960
So this council really sought to
answer to further answer the

1980
01:56:56,960 --> 01:56:59,760
claims of area of the Arians and
areas that we had talked about

1981
01:56:59,760 --> 01:57:02,040
in the last one.
So the last one was major focus

1982
01:57:02,040 --> 01:57:04,360
on Arianism.
Arianism is bad.

1983
01:57:04,960 --> 01:57:10,440
This one is going to respond in
a lot of ways to the Macedonians

1984
01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:17,200
or sometimes they're called semi
Arians and and another term

1985
01:57:17,200 --> 01:57:20,160
that's used to describe them is
ready for this one.

1986
01:57:20,320 --> 01:57:22,000
This one sounds like the
Anunnaki.

1987
01:57:22,440 --> 01:57:25,560
You know, the alien, whatever
species, the Pneumatomaki.

1988
01:57:26,160 --> 01:57:31,600
The Pneumatomaki So.
I was going to say it sounds

1989
01:57:31,600 --> 01:57:35,320
like a Pokémon card.
What does that mean?

1990
01:57:35,320 --> 01:57:37,560
What is this word?
So it's it's, it's another way

1991
01:57:37,560 --> 01:57:39,200
they love, they love their Greek
stuff.

1992
01:57:39,200 --> 01:57:41,760
Remember Greek theology, Greek
philosophy coming in

1993
01:57:42,040 --> 01:57:45,680
Pneumatomaki is a Greek term,
just like Homo Uzione 1

1994
01:57:45,680 --> 01:57:47,680
substance is Greek.
This is Greek too.

1995
01:57:48,280 --> 01:57:51,320
And, and honestly, you know,
we're not, we don't have much

1996
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:54,680
disagreement here, but the, the
council and I on this.

1997
01:57:54,680 --> 01:58:00,240
But the Numano Maki literally
translates to like spirit and

1998
01:58:00,240 --> 01:58:02,080
battle.
So Numa spirit.

1999
01:58:02,080 --> 01:58:05,400
So the Holy Spirit is called the
Numa in Greek and Testament.

2000
01:58:05,680 --> 01:58:08,000
And Maki is like a word for
battle.

2001
01:58:08,000 --> 01:58:15,160
So it's it's referring to those
who make war or those who those

2002
01:58:15,160 --> 01:58:20,040
who fight against the spirit.
Gotcha, that makes sense.

2003
01:58:20,320 --> 01:58:23,320
These guys are Benetarians.
What that means is instead of

2004
01:58:23,320 --> 01:58:25,520
Trinitarian, which is Father,
Son, Holy Spirit, right

2005
01:58:25,960 --> 01:58:28,560
Benetarians, Father and Son,
they do not believe that the

2006
01:58:28,560 --> 01:58:31,120
Holy Spirit is the third member
of the Godhead or of the

2007
01:58:31,120 --> 01:58:33,080
Trinity.
They don't believe in that

2008
01:58:33,280 --> 01:58:35,720
divinity of the Holy Spirit.
Right.

2009
01:58:36,520 --> 01:58:42,720
So as a result of this council,
the Nicene Creed actually ends

2010
01:58:42,720 --> 01:58:46,120
up being modified to include a
paragraph that we're going to

2011
01:58:46,160 --> 01:58:48,760
read, and this is what
constitutes what we now call the

2012
01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:55,440
Niceno Constantinopolitan Creed.
Well, I don't have to put that

2013
01:58:55,440 --> 01:58:57,560
on a job application.
Amen.

2014
01:58:58,080 --> 01:59:02,160
Right.
So that's going to be, it's just

2015
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:04,960
one paragraph modification.
The rest of the Nicene Creed is

2016
01:59:04,960 --> 01:59:07,560
kept the exact same.
They add some clarification

2017
01:59:07,560 --> 01:59:10,320
because it's statements in the
Nicene Creed about the Holy

2018
01:59:10,320 --> 01:59:15,720
Spirit or vague and this is what
they write out of this in

2019
01:59:15,720 --> 01:59:20,480
responding to the the
Pneumatomachians or the

2020
01:59:20,480 --> 01:59:24,400
Macedonians.
And in the Holy Spirit we've

2021
01:59:24,400 --> 01:59:26,760
been so, and we believe.
And in the Holy Spirit, the

2022
01:59:26,760 --> 01:59:31,560
Lord, the giver of life, who
proceeds from the Father, who

2023
01:59:31,560 --> 01:59:34,640
with the Father and the Son
together is worshipped and

2024
01:59:34,640 --> 01:59:37,440
glorified, who spoke by the
prophets.

2025
01:59:39,920 --> 01:59:42,160
Few years back I started to get
the feeling that we, as

2026
01:59:42,160 --> 01:59:45,360
fundamentalists and orthodox
Mormons, we need our own stuff.

2027
01:59:45,720 --> 01:59:48,280
Up to now, we've been able to
buy and purchase all of our

2028
01:59:48,280 --> 01:59:52,080
scriptures, books, art, and
music from other restoration

2029
01:59:52,080 --> 01:59:54,240
organizations and that's been
good.

2030
01:59:54,440 --> 01:59:57,040
But there's no guarantee it's
going to remain that way.

2031
01:59:57,560 --> 02:00:01,000
Also, it can be a bit tricky as
you scour the Internet trying to

2032
02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:04,160
find all the books from your
favorite fundamentalists or

2033
02:00:04,160 --> 02:00:07,520
orthodox Mormon authors.
As I thought about this, I feel

2034
02:00:07,520 --> 02:00:09,120
like I was really given a
solution.

2035
02:00:09,480 --> 02:00:11,960
Now through the hard work of
others, because let's face it,

2036
02:00:12,240 --> 02:00:15,000
I'm the guy least qualified in
all the world to build a

2037
02:00:15,000 --> 02:00:19,280
website, I'm happy to present to
you 1830 mercantile.org.

2038
02:00:19,880 --> 02:00:22,920
Right now on the website you can
see that we have all the books

2039
02:00:22,920 --> 02:00:25,960
that have ever been written by 4
authors, including names like

2040
02:00:25,960 --> 02:00:29,680
Drew Brownie and Ogdenkraut.
Also very soon there will be a

2041
02:00:29,680 --> 02:00:34,320
link to buy art and music all
produced by Mormons with a deep

2042
02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:37,680
love for the restored gospel.
There's also places for you to

2043
02:00:37,680 --> 02:00:42,040
get free resources where you can
find podcasts, videos, classes,

2044
02:00:42,040 --> 02:00:45,720
and other presentations.
Also coming very soon there will

2045
02:00:45,720 --> 02:00:48,960
be a place for events where you
can list the events from your

2046
02:00:48,960 --> 02:00:52,720
organization so that you can get
the most out of that attendance.

2047
02:00:53,240 --> 02:00:55,640
Now this can be as big as you
want it to be.

2048
02:00:55,640 --> 02:00:58,680
It's all up to you guys out
there if you want to buy and

2049
02:00:58,680 --> 02:01:01,440
post things on here.
Now, if you're someone who

2050
02:01:01,440 --> 02:01:04,640
produces something that you feel
like others can benefit from,

2051
02:01:04,960 --> 02:01:08,400
1830 Mercantile is a place where
you can make all of those

2052
02:01:08,400 --> 02:01:11,760
products available for purchase.
All you need to do is drop me an

2053
02:01:11,760 --> 02:01:14,880
e-mail at
mormonrenegade@gmail.com and put

2054
02:01:14,880 --> 02:01:19,160
1830 in in the title of that
e-mail with a short message and

2055
02:01:19,160 --> 02:01:22,320
either myself or someone else
from the 1830 Mercantile team

2056
02:01:22,520 --> 02:01:25,280
will reach out to you so we can
get your product up there on the

2057
02:01:25,280 --> 02:01:29,640
site.
Now to make sure that all the

2058
02:01:29,640 --> 02:01:33,280
products that we offer are
affordable and to ensure that

2059
02:01:33,280 --> 02:01:37,800
the vast majority of the profits
go to the producer, the website

2060
02:01:37,800 --> 02:01:41,720
percentage is only three to 4%
of the total cost.

2061
02:01:41,720 --> 02:01:44,520
And that's just so I can pay the
pros that have created this

2062
02:01:44,520 --> 02:01:47,080
website and keep the lights on
the website itself.

2063
02:01:47,840 --> 02:01:50,960
Finally, by making some of your
purchases at 1830

2064
02:01:50,960 --> 02:01:54,320
mercantile.org, you'll be
supporting folks whose

2065
02:01:54,320 --> 02:01:57,600
principles and morals are close,
if not the same as yours.

2066
02:01:57,800 --> 02:02:01,280
At the same time not giving your
money away to people who stand

2067
02:02:01,280 --> 02:02:03,280
against everything you stand
for.

2068
02:02:03,640 --> 02:02:06,640
So no matter if you're looking
to make a purchase or you're a

2069
02:02:06,640 --> 02:02:09,880
seller that wants to get your
products listed, head on over to

2070
02:02:09,880 --> 02:02:14,600
1830 mercantile.org today.
Drop me an e-mail and we'll make

2071
02:02:14,600 --> 02:02:15,920
sure that we get back out to
you.

2072
02:02:16,120 --> 02:02:20,080
Now back to the show.
So I mean, not a lot really to

2073
02:02:21,240 --> 02:02:23,680
to grovel, grovel with right,
right.

2074
02:02:24,200 --> 02:02:28,600
You know, here we affirm John
1526, which states that the

2075
02:02:28,600 --> 02:02:31,120
spirit goes out from the Father,
right?

2076
02:02:31,120 --> 02:02:33,400
We're in perfect agreement here
on that statement.

2077
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:36,560
In other words, that the spirit
acts as the agent of the Father.

2078
02:02:36,720 --> 02:02:39,880
Even though obviously these are
Nicene Trinitarians, they

2079
02:02:39,880 --> 02:02:41,720
believe that the spirit is the
same substance.

2080
02:02:41,720 --> 02:02:45,040
We don't, but still we, you
know, we say that the spirit

2081
02:02:45,040 --> 02:02:48,440
does proceed from the Father.
He he's an agent of the father,

2082
02:02:48,440 --> 02:02:51,040
is an advocate and comforter.
Right.

2083
02:02:51,320 --> 02:02:54,920
He's third in that economy of
beings, the ones that made that

2084
02:02:54,920 --> 02:02:57,600
everlasting covenant that we
talked about, and they all work

2085
02:02:57,600 --> 02:03:00,160
together to bring to pass that
immortality, eternal life of

2086
02:03:00,160 --> 02:03:02,240
men.
So boom, good.

2087
02:03:02,240 --> 02:03:04,720
Stuff really there to balk at.
Yeah, not too much.

2088
02:03:06,880 --> 02:03:09,960
Now I will say as a note, like,
so here's another thing.

2089
02:03:09,960 --> 02:03:12,360
We talked about how latter
scenes can be criticized as

2090
02:03:12,360 --> 02:03:15,360
Bennett, as Trinity, as Aryans,
right?

2091
02:03:15,360 --> 02:03:18,200
Some have accused Latter Day
Saints of being Benetarians, at

2092
02:03:18,200 --> 02:03:21,960
least in the early history that
originally they were Benetarian.

2093
02:03:23,480 --> 02:03:26,120
That is, that they only believe
in those beings of the Father

2094
02:03:26,120 --> 02:03:28,520
and the Son and to the exclusion
of the Holy Spirit.

2095
02:03:28,520 --> 02:03:32,400
And that is because on the
grounds of the two beings,

2096
02:03:33,280 --> 02:03:35,400
Lectures on faith, right?
Those two beings.

2097
02:03:35,840 --> 02:03:37,600
Yeah.
So it'd be lecture 5.

2098
02:03:37,600 --> 02:03:39,360
That's tends to be the more
controversial 1.

2099
02:03:39,360 --> 02:03:43,400
And it's the reason Lecture 5 is
the reason that the, in my view,

2100
02:03:43,400 --> 02:03:45,960
that the Lectures on Faith is no
longer in the Doctrine Covenants

2101
02:03:45,960 --> 02:03:47,960
in the LDS Church.
Right.

2102
02:03:48,640 --> 02:03:50,240
It's just caused too much
problems.

2103
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:54,240
I get it, I get it.
And, and look, I plan on doing

2104
02:03:54,240 --> 02:03:59,360
an episode this year on the the
arc, the lectures on faith,

2105
02:03:59,360 --> 02:04:01,920
because I think there's a lot
there to be unpacked.

2106
02:04:02,440 --> 02:04:03,000
Interesting.
Yeah.

2107
02:04:04,000 --> 02:04:07,080
For for for anybody who's who's
wondering, it's on.

2108
02:04:07,080 --> 02:04:09,240
It's on my short list of things
to do this year.

2109
02:04:09,240 --> 02:04:11,920
So good.
I'd love, I, I want to see it.

2110
02:04:11,920 --> 02:04:13,960
I, I, I love the lectures on
faith.

2111
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:17,560
I've read them so several times
so far.

2112
02:04:17,560 --> 02:04:20,680
I do think there's, there's
scriptures, you know, there's

2113
02:04:20,680 --> 02:04:23,760
debate about who wrote them, but
they're good.

2114
02:04:23,800 --> 02:04:26,240
They're, they're a good solid
statement of beliefs.

2115
02:04:26,600 --> 02:04:30,000
I think we can subscribe to them
as Latter Day Saints, right?

2116
02:04:30,680 --> 02:04:32,960
Absolutely.
Just on that.

2117
02:04:32,960 --> 02:04:36,080
Take some nuance in reading them
and understanding historical

2118
02:04:36,080 --> 02:04:39,240
context and where people are in
their progression.

2119
02:04:39,800 --> 02:04:47,200
Precisely, exactly, you know,
and right I I'll say at the end

2120
02:04:47,200 --> 02:04:50,080
of the day, let's say that the
lectures on faith do teach

2121
02:04:50,640 --> 02:04:54,360
Beneterianism.
Look, the tripartite formula of

2122
02:04:54,360 --> 02:04:59,880
the three beings of the ramp is
rampant in the Scriptures,

2123
02:05:00,400 --> 02:05:02,720
right, including uniquely Latter
Day Saints scripture.

2124
02:05:02,720 --> 02:05:04,800
So we can believe that the
Father, Son and Holy Spirit are

2125
02:05:04,800 --> 02:05:07,920
who they are.
They're part of the Godhead, you

2126
02:05:07,920 --> 02:05:10,640
know, and, and that tells me
that it's probably not

2127
02:05:10,640 --> 02:05:15,320
Bennetarian.
But regardless, we, we have the

2128
02:05:15,320 --> 02:05:17,720
scriptures as our guide and, and
that's OK.

2129
02:05:18,280 --> 02:05:23,080
I will say, if you would like a
thorough review of that, of

2130
02:05:23,080 --> 02:05:25,600
those claims around
Bennetarianism, in Lecture 5, in

2131
02:05:25,600 --> 02:05:28,240
the Lectures on faith, there's a
really good paper by a

2132
02:05:28,240 --> 02:05:30,920
philosophy Mormon philosopher
called David Paulson, who's

2133
02:05:30,920 --> 02:05:34,320
passed away within the past five
or so years.

2134
02:05:35,080 --> 02:05:37,400
It's unpublished.
If anyone wants that, you can

2135
02:05:37,400 --> 02:05:41,400
reach out to me, and I have a
copy of that because it's not

2136
02:05:41,400 --> 02:05:44,120
available.
But yeah, I can get it to you.

2137
02:05:45,160 --> 02:05:47,840
So anyway, there's that.
And anyway, that's just a

2138
02:05:47,840 --> 02:05:51,000
tangent.
Again, we are not Bennetarians.

2139
02:05:51,000 --> 02:05:57,160
We are not Aryans either.
So, so out of this one, out of

2140
02:05:57,160 --> 02:05:59,760
this council, there are several
disciplinary decisions or

2141
02:05:59,760 --> 02:06:03,400
cannons that come out of the
first Council of Constantinople,

2142
02:06:05,480 --> 02:06:07,840
and there's only one I want us
to pay particular attention to.

2143
02:06:09,440 --> 02:06:12,160
1st, I'll note like the use of
the word Canon here in

2144
02:06:12,160 --> 02:06:14,760
describing these.
That's interesting, right?

2145
02:06:15,400 --> 02:06:18,080
It's very interesting.
So this is a description of the

2146
02:06:18,080 --> 02:06:21,800
decided outcomes of the council,
not unique to this council.

2147
02:06:21,800 --> 02:06:24,280
Of course, all those ecumenical
councils have canons.

2148
02:06:26,200 --> 02:06:29,600
So you and I commonly know the
word Canon from the phrase like

2149
02:06:29,600 --> 02:06:34,600
the scriptural Canon and and it
describes what's authoritative

2150
02:06:34,600 --> 02:06:37,640
or binding.
It's the measuring rod of faith,

2151
02:06:37,920 --> 02:06:39,920
right?
These decisions are canons.

2152
02:06:41,720 --> 02:06:44,080
These decisions are canons here.
Like they have authoritative

2153
02:06:44,080 --> 02:06:45,400
binding on the members of the
church.

2154
02:06:45,640 --> 02:06:47,640
What they dictate are to be
considered doctrinal

2155
02:06:47,640 --> 02:06:50,080
declarations.
These are the laws of the church

2156
02:06:50,200 --> 02:06:54,480
and that's the hints of the
existence of the Canon law in

2157
02:06:54,480 --> 02:06:57,040
the Western Church.
So Catholicism has Canon law

2158
02:06:57,040 --> 02:07:02,080
that describe their own laws.
So they call their laws Canon.

2159
02:07:03,120 --> 02:07:07,880
So doesn't kind of it's kind of
commentary or an explanation of

2160
02:07:08,080 --> 02:07:12,160
of not necessary beliefs, but
maybe practice or decisions.

2161
02:07:12,520 --> 02:07:15,320
Right, right.
And they may not be on par with

2162
02:07:15,480 --> 02:07:19,040
scripture as the Canon, but they
are guides and they are

2163
02:07:19,040 --> 02:07:20,760
authoritative and they are
binding.

2164
02:07:20,960 --> 02:07:22,920
They affect how you your
practice.

2165
02:07:25,160 --> 02:07:27,360
Hence the problem, right.
That's the problem that J Smith

2166
02:07:27,360 --> 02:07:30,960
points out of of these things,
they become binding.

2167
02:07:30,960 --> 02:07:35,360
They become restrictive.
Absolutely.

2168
02:07:36,800 --> 02:07:42,040
So let's look at the discipline
Canon itself, this Canon that

2169
02:07:42,040 --> 02:07:44,280
we're going to be looking at.
This I think is more important

2170
02:07:44,280 --> 02:07:48,880
is, is Canon #3 and this will
get into answering the question

2171
02:07:48,880 --> 02:07:52,440
that you asked at the beginning
about what's the replacement?

2172
02:07:53,640 --> 02:07:56,360
OK, We've already seen it a
little bit with this council,

2173
02:07:56,360 --> 02:08:01,080
but with these other councils.
But anyway, Canon #3 reads, it's

2174
02:08:01,080 --> 02:08:03,120
really short because it is new
Rome.

2175
02:08:03,280 --> 02:08:06,600
The Bishop of Constantinople is
to enjoy the privileges of honor

2176
02:08:06,600 --> 02:08:12,920
after the Bishop of Rome.
So right, Constantinople is the

2177
02:08:13,120 --> 02:08:23,920
head of the Roman Empire there.
And in this we see that the,

2178
02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:26,880
the, the Constantine, the
Constantine Bishop or the

2179
02:08:26,880 --> 02:08:30,840
Constantine Church becomes
second in position in terms of

2180
02:08:30,840 --> 02:08:35,400
authority after Rome.
So Christianity, we've been

2181
02:08:35,400 --> 02:08:39,000
talking about power and, and
politics.

2182
02:08:39,640 --> 02:08:42,480
So Christianity is starting to
solidify its concept of what we

2183
02:08:42,480 --> 02:08:46,160
call the monarchical episcopacy
that would emerge in the

2184
02:08:46,160 --> 02:08:48,400
Catholic Church.
So that's a really, that's

2185
02:08:48,400 --> 02:08:52,960
another really fancy word and
and what it basically means in a

2186
02:08:52,960 --> 02:08:57,040
fancy way, Episcopal Episcopal
Greek word Bishop.

2187
02:08:57,760 --> 02:09:00,160
So Bishop it's another word for
Bishop Rick.

2188
02:09:00,560 --> 02:09:03,480
So the Bishop Rick and
monarchical obviously meaning

2189
02:09:03,480 --> 02:09:08,240
like relating to the king hasn't
having one authoritative figure.

2190
02:09:08,920 --> 02:09:12,680
So there's one authoritative
figurative figure who is the

2191
02:09:12,680 --> 02:09:15,960
Bishop of bishops, and that's
the Bishop of Rome or the Pope.

2192
02:09:17,800 --> 02:09:21,160
So, and that's what we mean by
monarchical episcopacy, having

2193
02:09:21,160 --> 02:09:24,640
the sole and highest authority.
So all bishops submit to the

2194
02:09:24,640 --> 02:09:28,000
Bishop of Rome and that's the
person who comes to be known as

2195
02:09:28,000 --> 02:09:31,360
the Pope.
And this supremacy is being

2196
02:09:31,360 --> 02:09:33,560
attested of Rome.
And, and you have the secondary

2197
02:09:33,560 --> 02:09:37,440
reference given to Constantine's
Bishop, Constantinople's Bishop.

2198
02:09:39,480 --> 02:09:41,760
We already looked at the passage
in Ephesians, right?

2199
02:09:42,680 --> 02:09:44,320
Gives us the idea of what Christ
intends.

2200
02:09:45,600 --> 02:09:49,760
Revelatory, designed for
ecclesiology, which is the

2201
02:09:49,760 --> 02:09:53,400
Apostolic leadership, this
council presents itself as yet

2202
02:09:53,400 --> 02:09:57,120
another in the consolidation of
power of the Church in a step

2203
02:09:57,120 --> 02:09:58,680
away from its design.
So in other words, what's

2204
02:09:58,680 --> 02:10:01,520
happening is the replacement is
the monarchical episcopacy.

2205
02:10:01,840 --> 02:10:05,560
It's this head Bishop of bishops
who rules all the other bishops,

2206
02:10:06,480 --> 02:10:09,160
and he's the Holy See, he's the
apostolate.

2207
02:10:10,280 --> 02:10:13,280
OK.
So the replacement for the the

2208
02:10:13,280 --> 02:10:18,200
apostles are the bishops, which
is a a role in Christianity, in

2209
02:10:18,200 --> 02:10:20,280
the Bible that was already lower
in authority than all these

2210
02:10:20,280 --> 02:10:26,400
other figures, right?
That's a little touchy.

2211
02:10:26,400 --> 02:10:30,320
That's a little problematic.
Yeah, you have a takeover.

2212
02:10:30,480 --> 02:10:35,400
You have a takeover of the
bishops and specifically 1

2213
02:10:35,400 --> 02:10:38,480
Bishop, which is the Bishop of
Rome.

2214
02:10:38,720 --> 02:10:42,040
And then for political
expediency, Constantinople's

2215
02:10:42,040 --> 02:10:45,120
Bishop becomes the second
because Constantine, right,

2216
02:10:45,120 --> 02:10:47,000
wants to have his power,
political power.

2217
02:10:47,480 --> 02:10:49,240
He gets to be second.
And he's like, I have to

2218
02:10:49,240 --> 02:10:51,000
recognize the Bishop of Rome
here.

2219
02:10:51,000 --> 02:10:52,760
So I'm going to do that.
But really, you know, we're

2220
02:10:52,760 --> 02:10:53,880
going to be we're going to be in
second.

2221
02:10:53,960 --> 02:10:56,760
But is that, is it really that
we're second?

2222
02:10:56,760 --> 02:10:58,840
I don't know, right?
I got you.

2223
02:10:59,000 --> 02:11:01,640
Yeah, No, it seems.
It does seem to be a power grab.

2224
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:03,640
Yeah.
I shouldn't say a power grab

2225
02:11:03,640 --> 02:11:08,480
because I'm guessing by this
point there's the apostleship

2226
02:11:08,480 --> 02:11:10,640
probably hasn't been passed on
right.

2227
02:11:10,640 --> 02:11:13,720
Or if it has, it's to some
nondescript individual

2228
02:11:13,720 --> 02:11:17,320
somewhere, right?
And it doesn't it doesn't move

2229
02:11:17,320 --> 02:11:20,960
forward.
And so not wanting to to

2230
02:11:20,960 --> 02:11:27,400
necessarily ascribe I'll intent,
I will say that it does feel

2231
02:11:27,400 --> 02:11:31,480
more like this is what we got to
work with now, right?

2232
02:11:31,480 --> 02:11:34,960
We no longer have the
apostleship, but what we do got

2233
02:11:34,960 --> 02:11:38,120
is we do have these bishops that
were set up by the apostles.

2234
02:11:38,120 --> 02:11:42,840
We can track that.
And so in their mind, it's the

2235
02:11:42,840 --> 02:11:44,840
next best thing that they got.
Right.

2236
02:11:45,880 --> 02:11:47,760
I I to me.
I don't want anyone.

2237
02:11:48,520 --> 02:11:53,200
I usually try not to ascribe.
I'll intent where simple mistake

2238
02:11:53,200 --> 02:11:57,840
or folly can be ascribed.
Again, we have to understand,

2239
02:11:57,840 --> 02:12:00,840
right, exactly what you were
saying earlier about things were

2240
02:12:00,840 --> 02:12:03,320
different back then.
You didn't have Facebook or, you

2241
02:12:03,320 --> 02:12:08,280
know, Skype or Zoom or phone
calls or text messages, emails

2242
02:12:08,520 --> 02:12:10,600
that would allow you to to
communicate.

2243
02:12:10,600 --> 02:12:15,280
So these, these apostles are
different from, you know, you

2244
02:12:15,280 --> 02:12:17,840
know, nowadays there are 12 guys
and they sit in Salt Lake.

2245
02:12:17,960 --> 02:12:21,360
They do travel, right?
But it's not in the same way.

2246
02:12:21,360 --> 02:12:25,320
These guys are traveling as
missionaries, these 12 men, and

2247
02:12:25,320 --> 02:12:27,560
they're going out and they're
going to the far reaches of the

2248
02:12:27,560 --> 02:12:32,240
earth to proclaim the gospel.
Again, that was not a jab at the

2249
02:12:32,240 --> 02:12:34,480
modern day 12 in the Elias
Church.

2250
02:12:34,480 --> 02:12:35,880
That's not at all what I'm
saying.

2251
02:12:36,120 --> 02:12:41,360
I'm just saying it's different.
But these men are separate.

2252
02:12:41,600 --> 02:12:44,920
The tradition of the church is
that these 12 apostles are all

2253
02:12:45,640 --> 02:12:46,760
killed.
They're all martyred.

2254
02:12:48,600 --> 02:12:51,880
You know, the idea that they
could just so easily make a

2255
02:12:51,880 --> 02:12:54,960
successor is, is really
challenging.

2256
02:12:55,440 --> 02:12:57,960
And so it's just going to it's
going to fall by the wayside in

2257
02:12:57,960 --> 02:13:01,000
certain ways.
And and this is the benefit of

2258
02:13:01,000 --> 02:13:04,160
being in the modern world that
things can be passed on, right?

2259
02:13:04,160 --> 02:13:07,240
And it's what Joseph Smith's
design was.

2260
02:13:08,440 --> 02:13:12,680
You know, he, he wants he, he
created a system so that things

2261
02:13:12,680 --> 02:13:15,200
could be even if it the rest
everyone else were killed.

2262
02:13:15,520 --> 02:13:17,560
You know, there's the one
apostle that could be able to

2263
02:13:17,560 --> 02:13:19,920
pass something on that you could
just make hundreds and hundreds

2264
02:13:19,920 --> 02:13:22,440
of other replacements in case
for emergency.

2265
02:13:22,440 --> 02:13:25,880
There's that letter, that letter
that Orson Hyde wrote that talks

2266
02:13:25,880 --> 02:13:33,560
about that anyway, and regarding
some of Joseph's last

2267
02:13:33,560 --> 02:13:37,080
instructions.
But right, absolutely.

2268
02:13:38,400 --> 02:13:43,200
So with with that, then we we
fully see that that the Bishop

2269
02:13:43,200 --> 02:13:51,240
of Rome, the Pope has been
firmly enshrined as the as the

2270
02:13:51,240 --> 02:13:54,960
man right power is now
consolidated and.

2271
02:13:55,720 --> 02:13:57,280
There's going to be an effort to
change the.

2272
02:13:57,360 --> 02:14:02,240
Council doesn't necessarily do
that, but it's the it's, it's,

2273
02:14:03,080 --> 02:14:07,040
it's the subsequent 1.
Exactly right here at that.

2274
02:14:07,400 --> 02:14:12,160
So that and then there's going
to be an effort to kind of take

2275
02:14:12,200 --> 02:14:15,920
walk that back a little bit.
I think we'll see maybe that

2276
02:14:15,920 --> 02:14:17,800
might not be the right way to
describe it, but we'll see that

2277
02:14:17,800 --> 02:14:21,680
in a little bit.
So that kind of resumes some of

2278
02:14:21,680 --> 02:14:24,720
the more important items at this
first council of Constantinople.

2279
02:14:26,360 --> 02:14:28,840
So it's not it's the first one
that happens at Constantinople

2280
02:14:28,840 --> 02:14:34,880
is not the last.
And in fact it'll be the 4th 1 I

2281
02:14:34,880 --> 02:14:38,320
believe.
But so we will move on to right

2282
02:14:38,320 --> 02:14:41,120
now to the third of those seven
at communicable councils at

2283
02:14:41,120 --> 02:14:43,680
which occurs at Ephesus.
So we all know Ephesus from

2284
02:14:43,680 --> 02:14:47,800
Ephesians episode that Paul
wrote this occurs in 431.

2285
02:14:47,920 --> 02:14:53,280
So we're now another 50 years
after the second one, and this

2286
02:14:53,280 --> 02:14:56,080
one attempts to answer what's
called the Nestorian

2287
02:14:56,080 --> 02:15:00,920
controversy, or the answer the
Nestorian belief on confusions

2288
02:15:00,920 --> 02:15:03,920
around the nature of Jesus.
Right.

2289
02:15:04,520 --> 02:15:09,240
So Nestorians were followers of
a guy called Nestorius Astoria

2290
02:15:09,480 --> 02:15:12,240
Astorius, Yeah.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, but

2291
02:15:12,240 --> 02:15:16,320
the Nestorians believe that
there were two beings known as

2292
02:15:16,320 --> 02:15:19,400
Christ essentially.
So there's the divine one and

2293
02:15:19,400 --> 02:15:23,960
the human one.
There's the there's the human

2294
02:15:23,960 --> 02:15:26,240
Christ.
And then, so there's Jesus is

2295
02:15:26,240 --> 02:15:28,160
the human Jesus.
And then there's the divine, the

2296
02:15:28,160 --> 02:15:34,120
Christ separate being and.
Or leave you in this like a sub

2297
02:15:34,120 --> 02:15:37,200
Trinity kind of a thing, right
one but the same.

2298
02:15:37,520 --> 02:15:39,800
Kind of, yeah.
Yeah, that's a good way to.

2299
02:15:39,800 --> 02:15:40,840
That's a good way to describe
it.

2300
02:15:40,840 --> 02:15:41,520
It's interesting.
I.

2301
02:15:41,520 --> 02:15:44,120
I'm trying to wrap my mind
around this now because I've

2302
02:15:44,120 --> 02:15:47,200
never heard of this.
It's it's fascinating.

2303
02:15:47,200 --> 02:15:48,760
Yeah.
They basically they split the

2304
02:15:48,760 --> 02:15:52,400
being of Christ into two.
They split them in half.

2305
02:15:53,160 --> 02:15:56,720
So there's they said that, you
know, like Christ can't truly be

2306
02:15:56,720 --> 02:15:58,360
human.
It's kind of, I don't know,

2307
02:15:58,360 --> 02:15:59,680
maybe kind of Gnostic in some
ways.

2308
02:15:59,680 --> 02:16:03,520
Like we can't have a Christ
who's human.

2309
02:16:03,520 --> 02:16:05,400
He's got to be holy, divine,
right?

2310
02:16:05,400 --> 02:16:07,480
And so there's got to be these
two different things.

2311
02:16:07,880 --> 02:16:10,360
And so the divine Christ God
could never be killed.

2312
02:16:10,680 --> 02:16:13,600
So it must have been like this
human Jesus, that was the, this

2313
02:16:13,600 --> 02:16:15,400
human Christ, that was the one
on the cross.

2314
02:16:15,720 --> 02:16:18,360
And then there's this separate
other divine Jesus who was never

2315
02:16:18,360 --> 02:16:23,200
actually subjected to such
ignominious death.

2316
02:16:27,160 --> 02:16:31,160
Now I will say there are some
questions in modern scholarship

2317
02:16:31,160 --> 02:16:34,040
about the exact nature of the
Nestorian belief and whether

2318
02:16:34,040 --> 02:16:36,600
that description that we gave is
accurate.

2319
02:16:37,280 --> 02:16:41,240
And again, this gets into the
politics of early of this all

2320
02:16:41,240 --> 02:16:44,040
this stuff, right?
People frame others beliefs in

2321
02:16:44,040 --> 02:16:46,320
the sometimes the worst way
possible in order to make a

2322
02:16:46,320 --> 02:16:53,480
statement and consolidate power.
But regardless, the council

2323
02:16:53,480 --> 02:16:55,959
condemned this view in
particular that we described,

2324
02:16:56,240 --> 02:16:58,520
whether or not it was truly what
the Nestorians believe it or

2325
02:16:58,520 --> 02:17:04,400
not.
And so they condemned this view.

2326
02:17:04,400 --> 02:17:07,040
And they also proclaim this is
where we get the concept of the

2327
02:17:07,040 --> 02:17:09,120
theotoko.
So they proclaim Mary is the

2328
02:17:09,120 --> 02:17:11,200
Theotokos, which is a fancy
Latin word.

2329
02:17:11,559 --> 02:17:15,840
I mean Greek word.
And again, Greek, I think Greek

2330
02:17:15,840 --> 02:17:19,719
here, Theotokos, God bearer.
So Greek philosophy coming in.

2331
02:17:20,080 --> 02:17:27,719
So she's the mother of God,
she's a Theotokos, which so

2332
02:17:27,719 --> 02:17:30,639
we're we're going to begin to
see the language that's going to

2333
02:17:30,639 --> 02:17:35,879
formalize, formalize at the
Council of Chalcedon as well

2334
02:17:35,879 --> 02:17:37,400
that we're going to look at 20
years later.

2335
02:17:37,639 --> 02:17:39,760
That's the doctrine of the
Hippostatic Union is another

2336
02:17:39,760 --> 02:17:43,040
thing that comes out of this.
It states basically that Christ

2337
02:17:43,040 --> 02:17:47,160
has one nature, not 2 and exists
both as the divine and as a

2338
02:17:47,160 --> 02:17:49,000
human.
So it's fully God and fully

2339
02:17:49,000 --> 02:17:54,200
manned the kind of idea that we,
we would proclaim as Latter Day

2340
02:17:54,200 --> 02:17:58,160
Saints as Christians.
So I want to read an excerpt

2341
02:17:58,160 --> 02:18:00,639
from the 3rd letter of Cyril to
Nestorius.

2342
02:18:00,639 --> 02:18:02,879
Yeah, it is Nestorius read at
the council.

2343
02:18:02,879 --> 02:18:05,840
So this is part of their
decision making here says this

2344
02:18:05,840 --> 02:18:08,680
following in all points the
confessions of the Holy Fathers,

2345
02:18:08,680 --> 02:18:10,120
which they made with the Holy
Spirit.

2346
02:18:10,120 --> 02:18:14,719
See, see, speaking in them and
following the direction of their

2347
02:18:14,719 --> 02:18:18,000
opinions and going as it were,
in the royal way.

2348
02:18:19,480 --> 02:18:23,639
Yeah, I know, right?
We say that the only begotten

2349
02:18:23,639 --> 02:18:26,400
word of God, who was begotten
from the very essence of the

2350
02:18:26,400 --> 02:18:30,480
Father, true God, from true God,
the light from the light, and

2351
02:18:30,480 --> 02:18:32,520
the one through whom all things
in heaven and earth were made.

2352
02:18:32,520 --> 02:18:35,360
So the nice and greed for our
salvation came down, etcetera,

2353
02:18:35,360 --> 02:18:39,400
etcetera.
This means that He took flesh

2354
02:18:39,400 --> 02:18:44,920
from the Holy Virgin and made it
His own, undergoing a birth like

2355
02:18:44,920 --> 02:18:49,200
ours from her womb, and coming
forth a man from a woman.

2356
02:18:49,559 --> 02:18:53,280
He did not cast aside what He
was, but although He assumed

2357
02:18:53,280 --> 02:18:56,760
flesh and blood, He remained
what He was, God and nature and

2358
02:18:56,760 --> 02:18:58,840
truth.
We do not say this, that His

2359
02:18:58,840 --> 02:19:02,040
flesh was turned into the nature
of the Godhead, or that the

2360
02:19:02,040 --> 02:19:04,879
unspeakable Word of God,
remember responding to stories,

2361
02:19:05,000 --> 02:19:07,040
was changed into the nature of
the flesh.

2362
02:19:07,200 --> 02:19:10,920
For He the Word is unalterable
and absolutely unchangeable, and

2363
02:19:10,920 --> 02:19:13,080
remains always the same, as the
Scriptures say.

2364
02:19:13,559 --> 02:19:16,400
For although visible as a child
and in swaddling clothes, even

2365
02:19:16,400 --> 02:19:19,320
while he was in the bosom of the
Virgin that bore him as God, He

2366
02:19:19,320 --> 02:19:22,719
filled the whole of creation,
and was fellow Ruler with Him

2367
02:19:22,719 --> 02:19:25,520
who begot Him.
For the Divine is without

2368
02:19:25,520 --> 02:19:28,120
quantity and dimension, and
cannot be subject to

2369
02:19:28,120 --> 02:19:31,200
circumspection.
We confess the Word to have been

2370
02:19:31,200 --> 02:19:36,000
made with one, with the flesh
hypostatically, and we adore one

2371
02:19:36,000 --> 02:19:40,080
Son and Lord Jesus Christ.
We do not divide Him into parts,

2372
02:19:40,440 --> 02:19:43,719
which is exactly what Paul says
it can Christ be divided?

2373
02:19:43,760 --> 02:19:47,920
If Christ is divided, right and
separate man and God in him, as

2374
02:19:47,920 --> 02:19:51,200
though the two natures were
mutually united only through a

2375
02:19:51,200 --> 02:19:57,160
unity of dignity and authority.
Few items here to note.

2376
02:19:57,760 --> 02:20:00,360
So the direction of the
opinions.

2377
02:20:00,400 --> 02:20:01,440
Yeah.
You like.

2378
02:20:01,600 --> 02:20:03,520
No, you, you say what you want
to say.

2379
02:20:03,920 --> 02:20:05,320
I want to hear this.
I want to hear what you have to

2380
02:20:05,320 --> 02:20:09,240
say.
It's our opinion, not

2381
02:20:09,240 --> 02:20:17,440
revelation, not deep research.
It's our opinion right here.

2382
02:20:17,440 --> 02:20:21,560
I think I'm I'm going to I'm
going to wager something here.

2383
02:20:22,400 --> 02:20:30,040
This might be the first time
that we see this council right?

2384
02:20:30,200 --> 02:20:41,080
We down know that that people,
people, oh authority is firmly

2385
02:20:41,080 --> 02:20:42,560
enshrined now.
Sure.

2386
02:20:43,760 --> 02:20:49,080
And this might be the first time
where we really start to see the

2387
02:20:49,080 --> 02:20:53,000
opinion of somebody count for
doctrine.

2388
02:20:53,480 --> 02:20:56,280
Yeah.
This should be a massive red

2389
02:20:56,280 --> 02:20:59,080
flag and the fact they told you
what they were doing this.

2390
02:20:59,080 --> 02:21:03,720
Kind of not trying to hide it.
Yep, yeah.

2391
02:21:04,800 --> 02:21:09,000
That is fascinating. 100%.
OK.

2392
02:21:09,080 --> 02:21:11,280
Where were you going?
So, yeah, I mean, that's

2393
02:21:11,800 --> 02:21:14,440
precisely what you were saying
is what I what I wanted to point

2394
02:21:14,440 --> 02:21:19,840
out the opinions of the Holy
Fathers, however good those

2395
02:21:19,840 --> 02:21:22,680
might be, they're the ones that
are going to play a factor in

2396
02:21:22,680 --> 02:21:25,320
the declaration of binding
doctrine, right.

2397
02:21:25,640 --> 02:21:28,480
And that is absolutely a
divergent from the understanding

2398
02:21:28,480 --> 02:21:31,360
of revelation had in the
Restoration.

2399
02:21:32,520 --> 02:21:34,280
You know this, the Scriptures
teach.

2400
02:21:34,880 --> 02:21:37,920
We know this.
Without vision, without prophecy

2401
02:21:37,920 --> 02:21:42,520
vision, the people perish.
The Prophet Joseph also

2402
02:21:42,520 --> 02:21:45,000
clarifies that the rock upon
which the Church is built in

2403
02:21:45,000 --> 02:21:47,640
Matthew is the rock of
Revelation, right?

2404
02:21:48,120 --> 02:21:51,720
Right.
He teaches that the doctrine of

2405
02:21:51,720 --> 02:21:54,800
revelation far transcends the
doctrine of no revelation.

2406
02:21:54,800 --> 02:21:58,040
This is a direct quote.
For one truth revealed from

2407
02:21:58,040 --> 02:22:00,880
heaven is worth all the
sectarian notions in existence,

2408
02:22:00,880 --> 02:22:02,680
right?
So one truth revealed from

2409
02:22:02,680 --> 02:22:05,760
heaven is worth all the
sectarian notions revealed from

2410
02:22:05,760 --> 02:22:08,800
the opinions of the council's.
That's what that's what brought

2411
02:22:08,800 --> 02:22:11,960
for, Joseph just said.
And, and this is interesting,

2412
02:22:12,040 --> 02:22:16,880
right?
Because I want to say this even

2413
02:22:16,880 --> 02:22:21,400
though Protestants come from
from the school of well, the

2414
02:22:21,400 --> 02:22:23,840
Catholic Church got some stuff
wrong.

2415
02:22:24,400 --> 02:22:27,080
Yeah.
You're starting from a false

2416
02:22:27,080 --> 02:22:32,400
premise right there.
There's an exercise in land

2417
02:22:32,400 --> 02:22:34,040
surveying that they make us do
in college.

2418
02:22:34,400 --> 02:22:36,200
Where do you go to college?
It's called latitudes and

2419
02:22:36,200 --> 02:22:38,440
departures.
OK.

2420
02:22:39,000 --> 02:22:41,840
And it basically what it says
is, and I think I brought this

2421
02:22:41,840 --> 02:22:44,920
up on the last one, correct me
if I'm wrong, but it's this idea

2422
02:22:44,920 --> 02:22:48,040
that if you're off half a
degree, you're not going to see

2423
02:22:48,040 --> 02:22:49,680
it in the foot.
You're not going to see it in

2424
02:22:49,760 --> 02:22:52,400
300 feet.
You're not you're going to start

2425
02:22:52,400 --> 02:22:56,480
seeing it at 567, even 1000
where it really becomes

2426
02:22:56,480 --> 02:22:59,240
noticeable is about a mile down
the road when all of a sudden

2427
02:22:59,520 --> 02:23:02,520
you were off by 10s of feet,
right?

2428
02:23:02,800 --> 02:23:05,240
Because that error has
extrapolated.

2429
02:23:05,240 --> 02:23:09,120
If this is your, your, your
point of beginning here and, and

2430
02:23:09,120 --> 02:23:13,160
you want to go here, but you're
starting just a touch off, it's

2431
02:23:13,160 --> 02:23:15,360
just going to start skewing and
get bigger.

2432
02:23:16,040 --> 02:23:21,080
And so if by virtue of
Protestantism coming out of the,

2433
02:23:21,080 --> 02:23:26,520
of the, the, the Catholic
experience, well, they're

2434
02:23:26,520 --> 02:23:28,520
already starting with a false
premise, right?

2435
02:23:28,520 --> 02:23:31,080
They're they're already starting
behind the gun.

2436
02:23:31,360 --> 02:23:35,200
And so there's, there's never
any mechanism to correct those

2437
02:23:35,200 --> 02:23:40,520
early heresies, right?
It's just because, look, I have

2438
02:23:40,520 --> 02:23:42,120
tremendous respect for
Lutheran's.

2439
02:23:42,160 --> 02:23:46,920
However, it's Catholic light.
Yeah, it is, right.

2440
02:23:46,920 --> 02:23:51,960
And so I think we have to be
cognizant of this, that that.

2441
02:23:52,320 --> 02:23:54,880
And again, I'm not ascribing ill
will.

2442
02:23:54,880 --> 02:23:58,120
I'm just telling you where it
is, where it's lying, where it

2443
02:23:58,120 --> 02:23:59,640
appears to lie.
I don't know.

2444
02:24:00,000 --> 02:24:01,720
Actually.
That's my thought on it.

2445
02:24:02,000 --> 02:24:05,200
Yeah, I, I, I really love the
example.

2446
02:24:05,200 --> 02:24:08,560
I always love the example that
President Uggdorf, there's

2447
02:24:08,560 --> 02:24:10,640
actually now the president of
the Corpsman 12 in the oldest

2448
02:24:10,640 --> 02:24:13,360
church he gave.
And it's exactly what you're

2449
02:24:13,360 --> 02:24:20,800
saying with with the example you
gave about, you know, going off.

2450
02:24:21,200 --> 02:24:23,800
He uses the example the airplane
because he was a pilot, right?

2451
02:24:23,800 --> 02:24:28,880
He says, you know, if you're
going off just a couple degrees,

2452
02:24:28,880 --> 02:24:31,440
it may not seem like it's just a
couple degrees right now, but

2453
02:24:31,440 --> 02:24:35,560
eventually you might be heading
towards, you know, you know,

2454
02:24:35,560 --> 02:24:40,360
Africa and end up in Antarctica.
You know, and, and I don't, it's

2455
02:24:40,360 --> 02:24:43,400
not an exact quote, but it's
true.

2456
02:24:43,400 --> 02:24:48,280
The Prophet Joseph said exactly
you missed the mark, which and

2457
02:24:48,280 --> 02:24:50,560
we always talk about in the
scriptures about that's what you

2458
02:24:50,560 --> 02:24:53,840
know, sin is.
It's not, it's hamartia, not

2459
02:24:54,000 --> 02:24:57,080
it's missing the mark.
And you know, the Prophet Joseph

2460
02:24:57,080 --> 02:24:59,160
says, if we start out right,
we'll go on right.

2461
02:24:59,920 --> 02:25:02,280
And you know, if you don't,
there are consequences.

2462
02:25:02,280 --> 02:25:04,440
You'll go off wrong, you'll do
the wrong thing.

2463
02:25:04,920 --> 02:25:07,400
So there's, there are these
issues that are coming about

2464
02:25:08,000 --> 02:25:09,840
right and they are, they are
dire.

2465
02:25:10,560 --> 02:25:14,800
The Prophet Joseph says that
salvation cannot come without

2466
02:25:14,800 --> 02:25:18,280
revelation.
It is in vain for anyone to

2467
02:25:18,280 --> 02:25:21,080
minister without, without
revelation.

2468
02:25:21,320 --> 02:25:26,320
And this and no man can be a
minister of Jesus Christ except

2469
02:25:26,320 --> 02:25:28,880
he is the testimony of Jesus,
which is the spirit of prophecy.

2470
02:25:29,280 --> 02:25:31,560
This revelation is important,
and revelation is what is

2471
02:25:31,560 --> 02:25:35,440
extremely lacking here.
And we're not just talking about

2472
02:25:35,680 --> 02:25:37,560
the revelation of all time.
We're talking about continuing

2473
02:25:37,560 --> 02:25:40,120
revelation.
God needs to continue to speak

2474
02:25:40,120 --> 02:25:42,040
to us just as he continues to
need to make.

2475
02:25:42,480 --> 02:25:45,320
We continue to need Him to
restore us and make us whole

2476
02:25:47,320 --> 02:25:50,120
again, to bring us to that
perfection, the measure of the

2477
02:25:50,120 --> 02:25:52,480
fullness of the stature of
Christ, as Paul talks about

2478
02:25:52,480 --> 02:25:54,680
Ephesians.
Absolutely.

2479
02:25:55,320 --> 02:25:59,200
Right.
So there's, yeah, there's that

2480
02:25:59,320 --> 02:26:04,640
in that little text there.
The text also talks about Christ

2481
02:26:04,640 --> 02:26:06,600
being unalterable and
unchangeable.

2482
02:26:07,120 --> 02:26:11,440
And there's all these cannot be
subject to circumspection.

2483
02:26:11,440 --> 02:26:13,360
He's without quantity and
dimension.

2484
02:26:13,600 --> 02:26:18,320
All these abstract things that
God is criticizing in the first

2485
02:26:18,320 --> 02:26:21,880
vision that we talked about last
week, right, of making God

2486
02:26:21,880 --> 02:26:26,200
unknowable and we're relegating
him to immateriality.

2487
02:26:29,280 --> 02:26:31,680
And and while I believe it's
helpful in true in certain ways

2488
02:26:31,680 --> 02:26:35,400
to say that God, that Christ is
unalterable and unchangeable in

2489
02:26:35,400 --> 02:26:37,600
some ways, it's utterly false in
others, right?

2490
02:26:37,600 --> 02:26:39,760
We learn from the Scriptures
that Christ grows in wisdom and

2491
02:26:39,800 --> 02:26:43,280
stature in favor.
He does change with and that's

2492
02:26:43,280 --> 02:26:45,720
with God and man, not just with
man, but in regards to his

2493
02:26:45,720 --> 02:26:48,360
relationship with God and his
status and standing with God.

2494
02:26:49,640 --> 02:26:52,800
While I don't believe that
Christ changes necessarily, you

2495
02:26:52,800 --> 02:26:58,800
know, in certain attributes, he
did not utterly shed part that

2496
02:26:58,800 --> 02:27:01,040
he did not utterly shit a part
of his identity, nor do I hold

2497
02:27:01,040 --> 02:27:04,800
that he declared like any
different doctrine than, you

2498
02:27:04,800 --> 02:27:07,720
know, that which was divine.
There's a degree to which he did

2499
02:27:07,720 --> 02:27:09,640
change and grew as he came here
on earth.

2500
02:27:11,200 --> 02:27:13,080
And that's part of this limiting
nature that we're seeing in

2501
02:27:13,080 --> 02:27:16,280
these councils that's utterly
defying what we know.

2502
02:27:17,520 --> 02:27:21,800
Absolutely.
It it yeah, it's, it's

2503
02:27:21,800 --> 02:27:26,920
problematic, right?
And look, I understand Mormonism

2504
02:27:26,920 --> 02:27:29,720
makes some big claims.
I get it from the get go.

2505
02:27:29,760 --> 02:27:33,960
You know, Joseph says I saw God
and Jesus in the Grove, right?

2506
02:27:35,240 --> 02:27:39,960
And we get beat up over that.
But I think it's important to

2507
02:27:39,960 --> 02:27:43,720
note that we're not the only
ones making claims.

2508
02:27:44,440 --> 02:27:48,720
And there's there's plenty for
us to stand on here.

2509
02:27:49,040 --> 02:27:52,960
And that's why I think this
examination is so needed, so

2510
02:27:52,960 --> 02:27:54,360
that we can at.
Least vital.

2511
02:27:54,800 --> 02:27:56,600
Fend ourselves a little bit
here.

2512
02:27:57,040 --> 02:27:59,920
We have to.
So I mean, it's critical.

2513
02:28:01,680 --> 02:28:08,560
Yeah, it's good gosh.
So another thing we saw here was

2514
02:28:08,560 --> 02:28:10,880
this, that hippostasis that was
being talked about.

2515
02:28:10,880 --> 02:28:16,040
The hippostatic hippostasis
means basically another again,

2516
02:28:16,480 --> 02:28:20,160
Greek concepts here coming in
the fund.

2517
02:28:20,160 --> 02:28:22,000
It refers to like the
fundamental substance of

2518
02:28:22,000 --> 02:28:25,840
something at the state of who
Christ is in this specific being

2519
02:28:25,840 --> 02:28:27,320
established.
And that's that doctrine that

2520
02:28:27,320 --> 02:28:32,480
comes out of the next next
council that's going to be

2521
02:28:32,480 --> 02:28:35,120
formalizing it.
But anyway, just to say that

2522
02:28:36,600 --> 02:28:40,720
Christ is not divided.
He is 1.

2523
02:28:40,720 --> 02:28:43,520
They're not the two different.
It's an historian idea of two

2524
02:28:43,520 --> 02:28:45,200
different the human and the
divine.

2525
02:28:47,600 --> 02:28:49,720
So there's that Hippostatic
Union, which says that they are

2526
02:28:49,720 --> 02:28:51,520
one.
Actually, they're not separate.

2527
02:28:51,840 --> 02:28:56,600
So they pushed back against the
Jesus exclusive Trinity model

2528
02:28:57,120 --> 02:29:00,280
and and said no, that's not a
thing.

2529
02:29:00,280 --> 02:29:03,000
The Trinity only works with the
three main ones.

2530
02:29:03,400 --> 02:29:06,640
Exactly right.
So Christ is one, right?

2531
02:29:06,640 --> 02:29:08,600
There's the fully God and fully
man idea.

2532
02:29:08,920 --> 02:29:14,480
Now, you know, I will just say
like I think the that this idea

2533
02:29:14,480 --> 02:29:17,880
of the Hippostatic Union is
lacking and it doesn't do

2534
02:29:17,880 --> 02:29:21,320
justice to certain parts of
Christ, humanity and divinity.

2535
02:29:21,320 --> 02:29:23,840
But that's a different
discussion for different time.

2536
02:29:25,360 --> 02:29:28,600
And then also I just wanted to
like quickly run with the idea

2537
02:29:28,600 --> 02:29:31,640
on Mary ology here or the idea
of theology about Mary with the

2538
02:29:31,640 --> 02:29:34,360
Theotokos.
That Mary being described as

2539
02:29:34,360 --> 02:29:36,760
Theotokos, I don't think is
entirely helpful.

2540
02:29:37,360 --> 02:29:39,000
I don't think.
I think it only leads to

2541
02:29:39,000 --> 02:29:41,600
confusion.
And you know, I, I know like

2542
02:29:41,600 --> 02:29:43,560
most when you hear, oh, she's
the mother of God.

2543
02:29:43,560 --> 02:29:45,480
We clearly know what we're
talking about.

2544
02:29:45,760 --> 02:29:48,200
That's assuming an audience that
knows what we're talking about,

2545
02:29:48,200 --> 02:29:49,720
right?
We know because we know the

2546
02:29:49,720 --> 02:29:53,840
story of Jesus.
So I don't necessarily object to

2547
02:29:53,840 --> 02:29:55,440
the language.
I also don't think it's helpful

2548
02:29:55,440 --> 02:29:57,400
for others, for people
especially that don't have this

2549
02:29:57,400 --> 02:30:03,520
concept of Christianity.
Interestingly enough, right,

2550
02:30:03,520 --> 02:30:07,880
Joseph Smith sees this problem
too in the 1830 edition of the

2551
02:30:07,880 --> 02:30:11,520
Book of Mormon.
His translation of First Nephi

2552
02:30:11,520 --> 02:30:15,880
1118 renders the text, as you
know, Nephi's vision.

2553
02:30:15,920 --> 02:30:22,320
And he sees, he sees Mary and he
actually sees and he sees the he

2554
02:30:22,320 --> 02:30:24,000
sees the Son and he sees Mary
too.

2555
02:30:24,480 --> 02:30:34,520
And he says in the 1830 edition,
Chapter 11, verse 18 of First

2556
02:30:34,520 --> 02:30:41,760
Nephi, I'm almost there.
And he said unto me, Behold, the

2557
02:30:41,760 --> 02:30:47,000
virgin whom thou seest is the
Mother of God after the manner

2558
02:30:47,000 --> 02:30:49,480
of the flesh.
So that literally the Theotokos,

2559
02:30:50,600 --> 02:30:53,440
if we were if we were
translating that into Greek, the

2560
02:30:53,440 --> 02:30:58,320
Greek of the time.
And now to several years later

2561
02:30:58,320 --> 02:31:00,800
in the second edition of the
Book of Mormon, the 1837.

2562
02:31:00,800 --> 02:31:02,960
He feels the need to correct
this because of the confusion

2563
02:31:02,960 --> 02:31:07,200
that could be, you know,
resultant as it any in our

2564
02:31:07,200 --> 02:31:08,920
modern edition.
If you were to open up your copy

2565
02:31:08,920 --> 02:31:12,120
of the Book of Mormon right now,
if you're not using the 1830,

2566
02:31:12,120 --> 02:31:21,040
anything post 1837, it's going
to say, behold, the mother of

2567
02:31:21,040 --> 02:31:23,680
the Son of God, that the virgin
whom thou seest is the mother of

2568
02:31:23,680 --> 02:31:25,320
the Son of God act the man of
the flesh.

2569
02:31:25,320 --> 02:31:28,080
So he makes that correction to
avoid the confusion.

2570
02:31:28,080 --> 02:31:32,880
So he sees what's going on here.
So again, Joseph Smith seeing

2571
02:31:32,880 --> 02:31:35,400
some of these issues and
correcting them, understanding

2572
02:31:35,640 --> 02:31:38,800
why this can cause problems.
Interesting.

2573
02:31:39,040 --> 02:31:42,680
OK.
One more thing on the Council of

2574
02:31:42,680 --> 02:31:46,120
Ephesians or the Council of
Ephesus, Excuse me.

2575
02:31:47,440 --> 02:31:50,280
This is a declaration which they
made and this is very important

2576
02:31:50,280 --> 02:31:52,160
and very interesting and
connects to that idea of the

2577
02:31:52,160 --> 02:31:53,560
opinions that we just talked
about.

2578
02:31:54,320 --> 02:31:56,760
It says this.
This is the a decision of the

2579
02:31:56,760 --> 02:31:58,800
Council.
It is not permitted direct

2580
02:31:58,800 --> 02:32:01,240
quote.
It is not permitted to produce

2581
02:32:01,240 --> 02:32:05,000
or write or compose any other
creed except the one which was

2582
02:32:05,000 --> 02:32:07,960
defined by the Holy Fathers who
were gathered together in the

2583
02:32:07,960 --> 02:32:12,280
Holy Spirit of Nicaea.
Any who dare to compose or bring

2584
02:32:12,280 --> 02:32:15,560
forth or produce another creed
for the benefit of those who

2585
02:32:15,560 --> 02:32:20,280
wish to turn from Hellenism or
Judaism or some other heresy to

2586
02:32:20,280 --> 02:32:23,000
the knowledge of the truth.
If they are bishops or clerics,

2587
02:32:23,040 --> 02:32:26,280
they should be deprived of their
respective charges.

2588
02:32:26,480 --> 02:32:30,200
If they are laymen, they are to
be anathematized or completely

2589
02:32:30,200 --> 02:32:32,640
and wholly separated from God.
Right.

2590
02:32:32,640 --> 02:32:35,040
To be accursed and go to hell.
Become a son of perdition.

2591
02:32:36,000 --> 02:32:39,040
Right.
And then they say some things

2592
02:32:39,040 --> 02:32:42,720
about how awful and perverted
and disgusting the story as is

2593
02:32:42,720 --> 02:32:47,120
and these beliefs that they're
responding to and that they

2594
02:32:47,120 --> 02:32:49,600
should be anathematized, which
again, I think it's OK to

2595
02:32:49,600 --> 02:32:55,880
excommunicate and call out bad
theology but no other creed.

2596
02:32:57,200 --> 02:32:58,760
Well, this is interesting,
right?

2597
02:32:58,760 --> 02:33:01,360
Because now we're starting to
get into like, thought police

2598
02:33:01,360 --> 02:33:03,240
sort of thing, right?
Yeah.

2599
02:33:03,440 --> 02:33:07,480
And this will lend itself to
some really nasty things later

2600
02:33:07,480 --> 02:33:09,920
down the road.
I believe that we'll look

2601
02:33:09,920 --> 02:33:12,880
through in the dark ages, things
like the Inquisitions, that sort

2602
02:33:12,880 --> 02:33:16,520
of thing where we're simply
believing in something different

2603
02:33:16,520 --> 02:33:19,360
can get you get you killed right
there.

2604
02:33:19,360 --> 02:33:22,880
There's there's no halfway here.
It, it can absolutely have you

2605
02:33:22,880 --> 02:33:26,120
killed.
And I want to say this, Mormons

2606
02:33:26,120 --> 02:33:28,440
are not without something
similar, right?

2607
02:33:31,840 --> 02:33:34,800
There are instances where, and I
don't have to tell you this,

2608
02:33:34,800 --> 02:33:38,560
where you can get X just for
thinking something different.

2609
02:33:39,240 --> 02:33:45,960
And that is not something that
the Joseph Smith I know would

2610
02:33:45,960 --> 02:33:48,760
have been game for.
Obviously there were times when

2611
02:33:48,760 --> 02:33:52,520
it had to happen right when it
was too, too much, but he was

2612
02:33:52,520 --> 02:33:54,880
pretty slow to get rid of
someone because they believe

2613
02:33:54,880 --> 02:33:58,920
different than he.
And I think that's important

2614
02:33:58,920 --> 02:34:00,720
too.
Here is we, we look at this and

2615
02:34:00,720 --> 02:34:04,560
realize that we're going to
encounter people, even people

2616
02:34:04,560 --> 02:34:07,880
that we would classify as
Mormon, who believe differently

2617
02:34:07,880 --> 02:34:09,480
than we do.
And we got to figure out how to

2618
02:34:09,480 --> 02:34:13,520
navigate those waters without
just getting rid of people.

2619
02:34:14,560 --> 02:34:17,760
Like I said, certainly to a
degree, there does come a point

2620
02:34:17,760 --> 02:34:20,960
at which, you know, if you can't
say Jesus is the Christ and

2621
02:34:20,960 --> 02:34:23,800
Joseph is a prophet, I think we
got problems, right?

2622
02:34:23,800 --> 02:34:26,120
We're not going to be able to
hug that one out on Sundays.

2623
02:34:26,440 --> 02:34:28,840
Yeah, absolutely.
Especially if you like you're

2624
02:34:28,840 --> 02:34:30,680
publicly teaching that and
proclaiming that, trying to

2625
02:34:30,680 --> 02:34:34,600
convince your position so.
But everything else, I think we

2626
02:34:34,600 --> 02:34:39,080
can have some, some grace and
some, you know, some some

2627
02:34:39,080 --> 02:34:42,440
decency and just working those
things out as people.

2628
02:34:42,800 --> 02:34:46,640
But this, that statement there
by, by Rome, that was pretty

2629
02:34:46,640 --> 02:34:49,040
tough, right?
Don't don't even think about

2630
02:34:49,040 --> 02:34:51,080
thinking about doing something
different.

2631
02:34:51,800 --> 02:34:53,240
Yeah, don't even let it into
your mind.

2632
02:34:53,240 --> 02:34:56,280
This is and This is why history
is so important to study in

2633
02:34:56,280 --> 02:34:57,840
general.
That's why this history is

2634
02:34:57,840 --> 02:34:59,160
important.
We need to understand these

2635
02:34:59,160 --> 02:35:01,480
principles.
That's why we need to be readers

2636
02:35:01,480 --> 02:35:08,800
and consumers of history because
of the past and what it what it

2637
02:35:08,800 --> 02:35:10,200
means for the present.
So right, right.

2638
02:35:10,200 --> 02:35:17,360
The reason Orwell's able to
write as potently as he does in

2639
02:35:17,360 --> 02:35:20,800
Animal Farm in 1984 where he
specifically talks about the

2640
02:35:20,800 --> 02:35:24,160
thought, please, the reason he's
able to look ahead is, is is

2641
02:35:24,160 --> 02:35:26,720
because and see the future and
what it could become is because

2642
02:35:26,720 --> 02:35:32,440
he's able to look back and, you
know, like you said in the past,

2643
02:35:32,480 --> 02:35:35,680
we can see these same principles
coming to the present, right?

2644
02:35:36,840 --> 02:35:40,920
You have in 1984 the Ministry of
Love and you know, about people

2645
02:35:40,920 --> 02:35:45,040
are going to being corrected and
then they're made-up, made into

2646
02:35:45,040 --> 02:35:47,560
something bad.
And we see that in the modern

2647
02:35:47,560 --> 02:35:50,120
day with, you know, certain
courts of love that are meant to

2648
02:35:50,120 --> 02:35:55,200
be good for us and help us.
But maybe, you know, and I'm not

2649
02:35:55,200 --> 02:36:01,120
Speaking of any organization in
particular, you know, but right,

2650
02:36:01,120 --> 02:36:03,040
but it's so true.
So we need, we need to be able

2651
02:36:03,040 --> 02:36:07,040
to look and, and, and really
take a fearless inventory of

2652
02:36:07,040 --> 02:36:10,160
what's going on to understand
the past, how to fix the

2653
02:36:10,160 --> 02:36:14,800
present, what problems these can
create and what problems they're

2654
02:36:14,800 --> 02:36:18,080
creating now, what problems they
have created, what problems they

2655
02:36:18,080 --> 02:36:20,960
could create for us.
How can we avoid these pitfalls,

2656
02:36:21,920 --> 02:36:23,520
right?
Because we still need that

2657
02:36:23,520 --> 02:36:27,520
restoration today as much as
they needed it in, you know,

2658
02:36:27,520 --> 02:36:32,640
424-5480.
Absolutely, Absolutely.

2659
02:36:33,360 --> 02:36:34,320
So.
OK.

2660
02:36:35,000 --> 02:36:37,360
Any other questions about this
Council or we're going to move

2661
02:36:37,360 --> 02:36:39,240
on to the next?
Nope, I think we're ready to

2662
02:36:39,240 --> 02:36:45,960
move on.
OK, so this one we will keep it

2663
02:36:46,240 --> 02:36:50,000
pretty short actually.
So the next Council met in 451

2664
02:36:50,000 --> 02:36:56,240
at Calcedon, as we mentioned
earlier, it saw the

2665
02:36:56,240 --> 02:36:59,720
formalization of the Hippostatic
Union, which we were hearing

2666
02:36:59,720 --> 02:37:02,840
about a little bit in the first,
in the first council, in the

2667
02:37:02,840 --> 02:37:05,360
definitely in the second council
where we just read those

2668
02:37:05,360 --> 02:37:08,480
excerpts.
But here it's declared as the

2669
02:37:08,480 --> 02:37:14,440
doctrine, the church.
Now there's another resolution

2670
02:37:14,440 --> 02:37:17,280
that's also passed by this
council known as Canon 28.

2671
02:37:17,280 --> 02:37:19,200
And this is what I was talking
about when they're trying to go

2672
02:37:19,200 --> 02:37:22,240
back maybe a little bit on the
idea of Rome supremacy.

2673
02:37:22,240 --> 02:37:28,000
But the Canon 28 declared in
this council that Constantinople

2674
02:37:28,000 --> 02:37:31,680
ought to have equal power and
recognition beside the Bishop of

2675
02:37:31,680 --> 02:37:34,840
Rome, right?
So equal to equal bishops.

2676
02:37:34,840 --> 02:37:37,840
Now, it's still monarchical in
the sense that there are two at

2677
02:37:37,840 --> 02:37:42,000
the head and they both have
equal power, but they are above

2678
02:37:42,000 --> 02:37:47,040
all the others.
Unfortunately however, or

2679
02:37:47,040 --> 02:37:49,200
fortunately, depending on your
view I guess.

2680
02:37:54,440 --> 02:37:57,400
Leo the Great, who was the Pope
at the time, the Bishop of Rome,

2681
02:37:57,400 --> 02:37:59,520
rejected the decision and it was
never enacted.

2682
02:37:59,640 --> 02:38:03,840
So Eastern Orthodox Christians
still hold to this decision.

2683
02:38:04,400 --> 02:38:06,680
You know, they see Constant
Noble as their head episcopate,

2684
02:38:07,160 --> 02:38:10,680
and they would ideally like to
have it be the case.

2685
02:38:10,680 --> 02:38:12,360
They still believe that that was
a good decision.

2686
02:38:12,880 --> 02:38:14,680
Constant Noble should have been
up there because they believe

2687
02:38:14,680 --> 02:38:17,160
Constant Noble's dead.
But anyway.

2688
02:38:17,840 --> 02:38:20,480
A Pope Leo was like, there's
going to be only one way to

2689
02:38:20,480 --> 02:38:21,920
Christian.
Yes.

2690
02:38:21,920 --> 02:38:25,720
And it's going to be the way
that I I deem fit.

2691
02:38:26,200 --> 02:38:28,160
Exactly.
Gotcha.

2692
02:38:28,600 --> 02:38:34,280
So, yeah, so that's really
enough.

2693
02:38:34,280 --> 02:38:36,280
There's not too much there to
talk about.

2694
02:38:36,360 --> 02:38:38,280
We already talked with the
Hepstatic Union, so we can move

2695
02:38:38,280 --> 02:38:40,960
on to the fifth.
So we're five, we're going on to

2696
02:38:40,960 --> 02:38:42,440
5.
There's seven of those.

2697
02:38:42,440 --> 02:38:44,840
So we're almost there.
No, you're good.

2698
02:38:45,960 --> 02:38:47,280
Not all the time in the world,
bro.

2699
02:38:49,320 --> 02:38:51,800
So the first council, we're
going back, the 5th council,

2700
02:38:51,800 --> 02:38:53,320
we're going back to
Constantinople.

2701
02:38:53,840 --> 02:38:58,200
And now it's the year 553.
So we're, we're really far,

2702
02:38:58,200 --> 02:39:00,480
really, really far removed from
Jesus.

2703
02:39:01,000 --> 02:39:04,960
Now at this time, documentation
is much more developed, you

2704
02:39:04,960 --> 02:39:07,720
know, all these things.
And the last one, there's a lot

2705
02:39:07,720 --> 02:39:11,560
more clear of the decisions and
everything, a lot more of the

2706
02:39:11,560 --> 02:39:17,920
interactions going on.
This one's interesting because

2707
02:39:18,040 --> 02:39:23,040
the ideas of a certain man named
Origin who had died around 200

2708
02:39:23,040 --> 02:39:27,920
years prior were condemned as
heretical.

2709
02:39:27,920 --> 02:39:32,920
So he was really posthumously
condemned as a heretic.

2710
02:39:35,000 --> 02:39:37,240
And it's cool.
It's it's it's interesting

2711
02:39:37,240 --> 02:39:41,440
because Origin is a theologian
in the three hundred 203

2712
02:39:41,440 --> 02:39:45,360
hundreds who is a lot closer to
the fount than the men deciding

2713
02:39:45,360 --> 02:39:48,440
these councils here in 553
right.

2714
02:39:48,680 --> 02:39:52,520
And he also just so happens to
share some beliefs with Latter

2715
02:39:52,520 --> 02:39:57,120
Day Saints in certain respects.
For example, Origin teaches the

2716
02:39:57,120 --> 02:40:00,640
concept of pre mortal existence
of human souls.

2717
02:40:01,520 --> 02:40:04,040
Oh wow.
So he's an early, early

2718
02:40:04,040 --> 02:40:07,400
attestation of this doctrine in
Christianity.

2719
02:40:08,400 --> 02:40:15,200
In one of his books, Date
Printkeepis, Printkeepis, he

2720
02:40:15,200 --> 02:40:17,880
says he created all whom he
made, equal and alike, because

2721
02:40:17,880 --> 02:40:20,480
there was in himself no reason
for producing variety and

2722
02:40:20,480 --> 02:40:22,520
diversity.
But since those rational

2723
02:40:22,520 --> 02:40:25,320
creatures themselves, as we have
frequently shown and will yet

2724
02:40:25,320 --> 02:40:27,720
show in the proper place, we're
endowed with the power of free

2725
02:40:27,720 --> 02:40:30,080
will.
This freedom of will incited

2726
02:40:30,080 --> 02:40:34,000
each one either to progress by
imitation of God or reduced him

2727
02:40:34,000 --> 02:40:37,120
to failure through negligence.
Interesting the idea of

2728
02:40:37,120 --> 02:40:38,640
progression too, right?
I was.

2729
02:40:38,680 --> 02:40:40,440
Going to say you'd sound kind of
Mormon.

2730
02:40:40,720 --> 02:40:44,240
Right, and this is, we have
already stated is the cause of

2731
02:40:44,240 --> 02:40:46,800
the diversity among rational
creatures, deriving its origin

2732
02:40:46,800 --> 02:40:49,120
not from the will or judgement
of the creator, but from the

2733
02:40:49,120 --> 02:40:54,040
freedom of the individual will.
So right origin teaches in this

2734
02:40:54,040 --> 02:40:57,400
book here, this concept,
concepts of progression,

2735
02:40:57,680 --> 02:41:02,600
concepts of pre human, pre
mortal human existence, at least

2736
02:41:02,600 --> 02:41:05,400
in our souls.
And I don't want to give the

2737
02:41:05,400 --> 02:41:09,440
impression that his view is an
exact one to one equivalent of

2738
02:41:09,440 --> 02:41:12,600
the Mormon belief.
There's definitely more nuance

2739
02:41:12,600 --> 02:41:15,800
if you read the entirety of his
works or not, but I just wanted

2740
02:41:15,800 --> 02:41:19,080
to merely express like he is.
This is what's going on at this

2741
02:41:19,080 --> 02:41:20,960
point in Christianity.
Original.

2742
02:41:20,960 --> 02:41:24,400
The original views are being
torn down and declared as

2743
02:41:24,400 --> 02:41:26,720
heretical, right?
Absolutely.

2744
02:41:27,120 --> 02:41:29,200
And, and it's kind of sad to
watch, right?

2745
02:41:29,200 --> 02:41:36,000
Because in some ways it echoes
for us who are fundamentalists,

2746
02:41:36,120 --> 02:41:41,720
right, is that you had the guys
closer at the at the source who

2747
02:41:41,720 --> 02:41:45,440
were telling you, look, there's
something to this.

2748
02:41:45,840 --> 02:41:49,880
And then you had later guys say
we can't have this, right?

2749
02:41:50,240 --> 02:41:57,240
This has got to be jettisoned
and the result will ultimately

2750
02:41:57,240 --> 02:42:00,280
be split and fracture and all
those other things.

2751
02:42:00,760 --> 02:42:06,880
But also it it serves to mess up
the map that you're trying to

2752
02:42:06,880 --> 02:42:09,880
follow to get back to God.
Yeah, that's.

2753
02:42:09,960 --> 02:42:12,760
Exactly right.
It, it, it, it creates a

2754
02:42:12,760 --> 02:42:17,200
different destination.
And we have to be well cognizant

2755
02:42:17,200 --> 02:42:20,880
of that going into this.
And so we're seeing a ton of

2756
02:42:20,880 --> 02:42:24,920
change happen, right?
And I think, I think the big

2757
02:42:24,920 --> 02:42:28,280
take away here is we've been
doing all this is, is, is

2758
02:42:28,280 --> 02:42:34,680
looking at this and
understanding that that there

2759
02:42:34,680 --> 02:42:38,080
was a going away from things.
There were changes.

2760
02:42:38,440 --> 02:42:42,840
There's often in, in, I don't
care if it's Catholicism or

2761
02:42:42,840 --> 02:42:48,160
modern day sectarian
Christianity, this idea that no,

2762
02:42:48,160 --> 02:42:50,520
no, everything's been preserved
correctly.

2763
02:42:52,200 --> 02:42:55,400
Everything has been preserved,
everything is good.

2764
02:42:55,960 --> 02:43:01,280
We don't need anything else.
But what the history is bearing

2765
02:43:01,280 --> 02:43:05,560
out is that all these changes
are not done by revelation.

2766
02:43:05,800 --> 02:43:09,080
They're done in councils.
They're done under the the

2767
02:43:09,080 --> 02:43:12,680
auspices of, of gaining
political power and

2768
02:43:12,680 --> 02:43:17,680
consolidating power into one,
one church with one man.

2769
02:43:19,760 --> 02:43:25,280
And it's important that people
recognize this because it's out

2770
02:43:25,280 --> 02:43:30,400
of this soup that the need for a
restoration becomes extremely

2771
02:43:30,400 --> 02:43:33,680
apparent.
Yeah, that's right.

2772
02:43:33,680 --> 02:43:36,240
It's absolutely true.
And it's it is Satan's

2773
02:43:36,240 --> 02:43:40,720
counterfeit, right?
I mean, it's this political,

2774
02:43:41,320 --> 02:43:44,160
politically motivated,
politically led and headed

2775
02:43:44,880 --> 02:43:49,440
organization that decides based
on the opinions of men and on

2776
02:43:49,440 --> 02:43:54,680
political expediency rather
than, you know, organizations

2777
02:43:54,680 --> 02:43:57,720
headed by God.
You know, we have our our leader

2778
02:43:57,840 --> 02:44:02,360
and we have those dictates
coming out and there is a

2779
02:44:02,360 --> 02:44:05,800
counterfeit to every truth, you
know, and that's what we see.

2780
02:44:06,320 --> 02:44:10,520
That's what we see.
So, yeah, Origin is one of those

2781
02:44:10,520 --> 02:44:12,560
early souls that really speaks
to us.

2782
02:44:12,640 --> 02:44:15,600
And he ends up being condemned
as a subordinationist, which I

2783
02:44:15,600 --> 02:44:18,600
think speaks to us too is Latter
Day Saints who and Mormons who

2784
02:44:18,600 --> 02:44:21,320
reject, you know, we, we are
subordinationist.

2785
02:44:21,560 --> 02:44:23,160
We believe the Father is above
the Son.

2786
02:44:23,880 --> 02:44:27,880
Right.
Not to any, not to say anything

2787
02:44:27,880 --> 02:44:30,000
against the sun.
He's amazing.

2788
02:44:30,000 --> 02:44:33,600
He does everything for us.
But it happens.

2789
02:44:33,600 --> 02:44:36,760
He has a unique origin, has a
unique view that's condemned

2790
02:44:36,760 --> 02:44:40,040
about the pocket of stasis or
the restoration of all things in

2791
02:44:40,040 --> 02:44:43,240
Acts 3.
That includes every human soul

2792
02:44:43,240 --> 02:44:49,480
being eventually delivered up to
God's salvation, which we do

2793
02:44:49,480 --> 02:44:51,560
believe in hell as Latter Day
Saints, but we also believe hell

2794
02:44:51,560 --> 02:44:55,000
is finite.
And so we, you know, we have

2795
02:44:55,000 --> 02:44:58,800
some similar kindred ideas with
that too, right?

2796
02:44:59,000 --> 02:45:01,480
Absolutely.
But he's condemned he's.

2797
02:45:01,560 --> 02:45:03,920
He's condemned.
Persona non grata.

2798
02:45:04,240 --> 02:45:06,480
That's right.
Now they waited, you know, 2-3

2799
02:45:06,480 --> 02:45:08,240
hundred years after he's dead to
do that.

2800
02:45:08,240 --> 02:45:13,360
But again, he was a very
powerful and popular voice in

2801
02:45:13,360 --> 02:45:16,360
the early, early.
Which is interesting too that

2802
02:45:16,360 --> 02:45:21,520
far down the line, right?
Like what was going on that made

2803
02:45:21,520 --> 02:45:24,120
the church in that day single
him out and be like, yeah, we

2804
02:45:24,120 --> 02:45:27,360
gotta we gotta do away with him.
That's that's a rhetorical

2805
02:45:27,360 --> 02:45:28,280
question.
I'm right.

2806
02:45:28,280 --> 02:45:29,600
It's true.
You have the answer.

2807
02:45:29,600 --> 02:45:32,640
But yeah, that's.
Other than this idea to really

2808
02:45:32,640 --> 02:45:35,640
completely make sure we sever
the ties with that early church

2809
02:45:35,640 --> 02:45:37,920
because of political expediency,
that's all I could say.

2810
02:45:37,920 --> 02:45:40,200
It's just a guess.
But absolutely.

2811
02:45:40,200 --> 02:45:42,640
I don't know, you know.
OK, and what council was that?

2812
02:45:43,200 --> 02:45:48,720
That was the second Council of
Constantinople, OK, fifth of our

2813
02:45:48,760 --> 02:45:51,440
seven ecumenical.
Anything else come out of that

2814
02:45:51,440 --> 02:45:53,480
one?
That's really the most of

2815
02:45:53,480 --> 02:45:57,640
interesting note there on that
is all about origin basically in

2816
02:45:57,640 --> 02:46:00,960
a lot of ways.
So then we're going to have the

2817
02:46:00,960 --> 02:46:03,640
six Ecumenical Council, which is
the third and final of the

2818
02:46:03,640 --> 02:46:05,480
council's that occur at
Constantinople.

2819
02:46:07,960 --> 02:46:11,120
Sometime between 680 and 681 is
when this is hurt this occurs.

2820
02:46:11,120 --> 02:46:15,160
So we're looking at now, you
know, several, you know, 120 a

2821
02:46:16,280 --> 02:46:24,880
130 years in the future and this
one, we're definitely going to

2822
02:46:24,880 --> 02:46:27,440
be very brief on this one.
Like there's not a lot to say

2823
02:46:27,440 --> 02:46:30,600
because there's a lot to say,
but it's beyond the scope of

2824
02:46:30,600 --> 02:46:33,720
this podcast.
Basically the Ecumenical Council

2825
02:46:33,720 --> 02:46:38,040
here condemns Monotheleitism and
mono energism.

2826
02:46:40,080 --> 02:46:43,040
Can you explain both of those?
I know what monotheism is, but

2827
02:46:43,040 --> 02:46:45,160
none of the other terms.
Well, not monotheism.

2828
02:46:45,160 --> 02:46:47,800
Monotheleitism.
That's what I'm saying.

2829
02:46:47,800 --> 02:46:50,640
I know what monotheism is it?
Sounds like OK, OK, yeah.

2830
02:46:50,640 --> 02:46:52,880
But what?
But what do those other other

2831
02:46:52,880 --> 02:46:57,240
terms mean?
So basically it's this idea the

2832
02:46:57,840 --> 02:47:03,320
that so we talked earlier about
the Nestorians and the

2833
02:47:03,320 --> 02:47:05,560
Hippostatic Union as by
contrast.

2834
02:47:05,560 --> 02:47:09,120
So there's the idea that Christ,
there were two Christ beings,

2835
02:47:09,440 --> 02:47:11,600
the person, the the God and the
human.

2836
02:47:12,320 --> 02:47:18,920
This one, this idea teaches that
Christ possesses 2 will, so it

2837
02:47:18,920 --> 02:47:23,320
extends it from beyond the being
to the will of Christ, the inner

2838
02:47:23,320 --> 02:47:25,760
workings of his mind.
I guess the will, whatever that

2839
02:47:25,760 --> 02:47:29,360
means.
Christ possesses 2 natural

2840
02:47:29,360 --> 02:47:31,720
wills.
There's a divine will and a

2841
02:47:31,720 --> 02:47:34,880
human will and, and, and
Monophyletism, by contrast, says

2842
02:47:34,880 --> 02:47:37,480
there's only one will.
So they're trying to get away

2843
02:47:37,480 --> 02:47:39,360
from that, right?
There's only the divine will.

2844
02:47:39,360 --> 02:47:43,200
There is nothing human about it.
Christ only had a divine will.

2845
02:47:44,920 --> 02:47:50,120
And with mono energism, it's
kind of similar.

2846
02:47:50,120 --> 02:47:51,960
Basically, there are two
energies.

2847
02:47:52,400 --> 02:47:54,840
There's only one.
There was only one energy that

2848
02:47:54,840 --> 02:48:00,840
was in part of of Christ.
And that's a really, really

2849
02:48:00,840 --> 02:48:05,920
basic explanation of that.
But what I will say that's

2850
02:48:05,920 --> 02:48:09,360
interesting about that, to be
brief.

2851
02:48:09,800 --> 02:48:12,880
So the, the the Council itself
ends up condemning that and then

2852
02:48:12,880 --> 02:48:15,200
affirms that Christ possesses 2
natural wills.

2853
02:48:15,200 --> 02:48:17,400
Just like there's the fully
human and fully divine.

2854
02:48:19,800 --> 02:48:23,440
So there's two wills and there's
two human 2 natural energies or

2855
02:48:23,440 --> 02:48:26,520
operations as they describe it,
that are in harmony with this

2856
02:48:26,520 --> 02:48:30,080
one person.
Keeps getting worse.

2857
02:48:30,200 --> 02:48:34,200
It does keep getting worse.
Like, like at some point I'm

2858
02:48:34,200 --> 02:48:38,360
like, hold on, let's just go
look at the scripture and see

2859
02:48:38,360 --> 02:48:40,960
what that says.
Right.

2860
02:48:40,960 --> 02:48:43,720
We get things so complicated was
we're trying to do all this

2861
02:48:43,720 --> 02:48:47,240
philosophizing rather than going
to the font and revelation

2862
02:48:47,240 --> 02:48:50,760
itself and asking again, not
that philosophy is bad, not

2863
02:48:50,760 --> 02:48:53,720
these, these, these questions.
We, you know, we as Mormons,

2864
02:48:53,720 --> 02:48:54,880
we'll get together and we'll
ask.

2865
02:48:55,040 --> 02:48:58,000
Interesting philosophical
theological questions like have

2866
02:48:58,000 --> 02:48:59,920
you ever thought about this?
Could this be the case?

2867
02:49:00,160 --> 02:49:02,000
Is Cain Bigfoot?
You know, I don't know but

2868
02:49:02,560 --> 02:49:07,520
right.
But but at the at the end of the

2869
02:49:07,520 --> 02:49:10,440
day, what where do we go?
Like what is our foundation?

2870
02:49:10,440 --> 02:49:14,160
What's our bedrock?
And it's again Matthew 16 and

2871
02:49:14,160 --> 02:49:16,080
Joseph Smith tells us what is
the bedrock?

2872
02:49:16,080 --> 02:49:17,720
What is the rock?
It's revelation.

2873
02:49:17,720 --> 02:49:21,960
We got to go there.
As another side note, it is

2874
02:49:21,960 --> 02:49:25,280
interesting that mono energism
really actually might be the

2875
02:49:25,280 --> 02:49:29,560
foundation of as a heresy is the
foundation of the heresy of

2876
02:49:29,560 --> 02:49:35,920
Protestantism, right?
So Calvinism, excuse me, which

2877
02:49:35,920 --> 02:49:39,640
is the foundation process, I
guess, but Calvinism eventually

2878
02:49:39,640 --> 02:49:43,080
teaches what's called monarchism
or that in terms of in regards

2879
02:49:43,080 --> 02:49:46,200
to salvation, there is only one
energy involved.

2880
02:49:46,200 --> 02:49:49,680
It's the energy of Christ or the
energy of God that interjects in

2881
02:49:49,680 --> 02:49:52,400
human will, that the human
energy or the human will or

2882
02:49:52,400 --> 02:49:56,600
operation plays no role, right.
But we as Latter Day Saints and

2883
02:49:56,600 --> 02:50:01,160
all the other declarations are,
are synergists.

2884
02:50:01,160 --> 02:50:04,800
We believe in two energies.
Our energy plays as much of A

2885
02:50:04,800 --> 02:50:06,200
role.
We play as much of A role in

2886
02:50:06,200 --> 02:50:12,040
salvation as God does, right?
God interacts, God intervenes

2887
02:50:12,040 --> 02:50:14,680
and does the saving, the
salvation, the deliverance, the

2888
02:50:14,680 --> 02:50:17,560
redemption.
But we have to accept His.

2889
02:50:18,040 --> 02:50:20,680
Right, right.
We have to become repentant and

2890
02:50:20,680 --> 02:50:22,960
humble and do all those things.
Exactly.

2891
02:50:22,960 --> 02:50:24,840
Access the power of the
Atonement.

2892
02:50:25,200 --> 02:50:27,720
Right.
So that is the third council,

2893
02:50:27,720 --> 02:50:31,240
Constantinople, the sixth of
seven ecumenical councils.

2894
02:50:31,680 --> 02:50:33,920
Pretty basic.
You can chalk that one up to the

2895
02:50:33,920 --> 02:50:37,360
Godhead gets more confusing, not
less.

2896
02:50:37,600 --> 02:50:38,880
Yes.
So that's right.

2897
02:50:38,880 --> 02:50:40,880
That's exactly right.
OK.

2898
02:50:41,760 --> 02:50:45,800
The last, the last of the seven
councils, the seven ecumenical

2899
02:50:45,800 --> 02:50:49,160
councils.
And again, we're not even

2900
02:50:49,160 --> 02:50:51,760
getting into the later councils
because it's just there's a lot

2901
02:50:51,760 --> 02:50:52,920
there.
There's way too much.

2902
02:50:54,400 --> 02:51:01,440
We will cut it off at the 7th
one, OK, It's the second Council

2903
02:51:01,440 --> 02:51:03,240
of Nicaea.
So we're going way back to

2904
02:51:03,240 --> 02:51:10,000
Turkey again, way back to Nicaea
in the year 787, nearly 800

2905
02:51:10,000 --> 02:51:14,840
years since the death of our
Lord and his resurrection.

2906
02:51:19,760 --> 02:51:21,920
This is a, this is a actually
pretty big one.

2907
02:51:21,920 --> 02:51:24,200
We're not going to go, we're not
going to talk too much about it,

2908
02:51:24,600 --> 02:51:27,560
but it's still pretty big in
terms of what it says.

2909
02:51:28,480 --> 02:51:32,320
This Council we see the
canonization or the

2910
02:51:32,320 --> 02:51:35,440
formalization of the doctrine of
the veneration of icons or

2911
02:51:35,440 --> 02:51:37,920
images.
Interesting.

2912
02:51:38,280 --> 02:51:43,120
So this idea that, you know,
Catholics worship images and

2913
02:51:43,120 --> 02:51:45,880
they won't like it if I use that
word, but you know, that's what

2914
02:51:45,880 --> 02:51:46,920
it is.
It is what it is.

2915
02:51:46,920 --> 02:51:53,560
We're going to call it what it
is that is being formalized

2916
02:51:53,560 --> 02:51:55,280
here.
And they'll say that has it's

2917
02:51:55,280 --> 02:51:57,760
Apostolic an origin.
I'll tell you it's not.

2918
02:51:59,320 --> 02:52:02,240
We go back and forth on that.
But anyways, I will read what

2919
02:52:02,240 --> 02:52:04,680
the Council says here about icon
veneration.

2920
02:52:06,360 --> 02:52:10,320
To summarize, we declare that we
defend free from any

2921
02:52:10,320 --> 02:52:13,560
innovations, all the written and
unwritten ecclesiastical

2922
02:52:13,560 --> 02:52:15,480
traditions that have been
entrusted to us.

2923
02:52:16,000 --> 02:52:19,480
Council formulates for the first
time with the formulates for the

2924
02:52:19,480 --> 02:52:22,760
first time with the Church has
always believed regarding icons

2925
02:52:22,760 --> 02:52:27,240
here basically, right?
So all of these traditions we're

2926
02:52:27,240 --> 02:52:28,480
going to take and we're going to
formalize it.

2927
02:52:29,320 --> 02:52:32,800
One of these is the production
of representational art.

2928
02:52:34,320 --> 02:52:36,480
This is quite in harmony with
the history of the spread of the

2929
02:52:36,480 --> 02:52:38,880
Gospel as it provides
confirmation that the becoming

2930
02:52:38,880 --> 02:52:42,360
man of the Word of God was real
and not just imaginary, and as

2931
02:52:42,360 --> 02:52:47,400
it brings us a similar benefit.
For things that mutually

2932
02:52:47,400 --> 02:52:49,560
illustrate one another
undoubtedly possess one

2933
02:52:49,560 --> 02:52:52,400
another's message.
Given this state of affairs and

2934
02:52:52,400 --> 02:52:55,480
stepping out as through as
though on the Royal highway,

2935
02:52:55,800 --> 02:52:58,680
following as we are the God
spoken teaching of our Holy

2936
02:52:58,680 --> 02:53:01,280
Fathers and the tradition of the
Catholic Church.

2937
02:53:02,440 --> 02:53:04,720
For we recognize that this
tradition comes from the Holy

2938
02:53:04,720 --> 02:53:08,440
Spirit who dwells in her.
We decreed with full precision

2939
02:53:08,440 --> 02:53:12,040
and care that, like the figure
of honoured and life giving

2940
02:53:12,040 --> 02:53:15,880
cross, the revered and holy
images, whether painted or made

2941
02:53:15,880 --> 02:53:20,400
of mosaic or of other suitable
material, are to be exposed in

2942
02:53:20,400 --> 02:53:23,800
the holy Churches of God, on
sacred instruments, investments,

2943
02:53:24,120 --> 02:53:27,720
on walls and panels, in houses
and by public ways.

2944
02:53:28,160 --> 02:53:31,680
These are the images of our Lord
God and Savior Jesus Christ, and

2945
02:53:31,680 --> 02:53:35,680
of Our Lady Mary without
blemish, a holy God Bearer, and

2946
02:53:35,680 --> 02:53:39,240
of the revered angels, and of
any of the saintly holy men.

2947
02:53:39,720 --> 02:53:42,400
The more frequently they are
seen in representational art,

2948
02:53:42,600 --> 02:53:46,760
the more are those who see them
drawn to remember and long for

2949
02:53:46,760 --> 02:53:51,080
those who serve as models and
pay and to pay these images the

2950
02:53:51,080 --> 02:53:54,000
tribute of salutation and
respectful veneration.

2951
02:53:54,520 --> 02:53:58,360
Certainly this is not the full
adoration or the full worship.

2952
02:53:58,640 --> 02:54:02,720
What they call in Greek latria
in in accordance with our faith,

2953
02:54:02,960 --> 02:54:06,840
which is properly paid only by
the divine to the divine nature,

2954
02:54:07,240 --> 02:54:10,000
But it resembles that given to
the figures of the honored and

2955
02:54:10,000 --> 02:54:13,680
life giving cross, and also to
the holy books of the Gospels

2956
02:54:13,680 --> 02:54:15,600
and to other sacred cult
objects.

2957
02:54:16,160 --> 02:54:18,720
Further, people are drawn to
honor these images with the

2958
02:54:18,720 --> 02:54:22,800
offering of incense and lights,
as was piously established by

2959
02:54:22,800 --> 02:54:25,400
ancient custom.
Indeed, the honor paid to an

2960
02:54:25,400 --> 02:54:29,320
image traverses it reaching the
model itself.

2961
02:54:29,640 --> 02:54:34,120
And he who venerates the image
venerates the person represented

2962
02:54:34,120 --> 02:54:40,480
in that image.
Look, they say, they say it's

2963
02:54:40,480 --> 02:54:42,920
not the same thing, right?
That's, but that's exactly, it's

2964
02:54:42,920 --> 02:54:46,800
not the same thing as worship as
in the type of worship.

2965
02:54:46,800 --> 02:54:48,360
They, they actually make 2
distincts.

2966
02:54:48,560 --> 02:54:51,200
There's the worship that is the
worship given to God alone.

2967
02:54:51,200 --> 02:54:54,040
And then there's the worship or
veneration, the, the dulia, as

2968
02:54:54,040 --> 02:54:57,920
opposed to latria that's given
to that can be given to objects

2969
02:54:57,920 --> 02:55:00,400
below it.
It's worship.

2970
02:55:00,760 --> 02:55:06,240
OK, look, hands down, that's
what's going on, right?

2971
02:55:06,360 --> 02:55:10,480
You draw, you were drawn to
honor these images with the

2972
02:55:10,480 --> 02:55:15,320
offering of incense and lights.
We honor and venerate sacred

2973
02:55:15,320 --> 02:55:20,280
cult objects.
We take objects and we sit there

2974
02:55:20,280 --> 02:55:23,560
and we think about them, right?
And we, we are awed and amazed

2975
02:55:23,560 --> 02:55:25,360
and we worship, right?
We venerate.

2976
02:55:26,200 --> 02:55:29,680
We put so much holy emphasis on
these items, these

2977
02:55:30,000 --> 02:55:34,640
representations, that it becomes
idolatrous, I think, right?

2978
02:55:36,880 --> 02:55:40,840
You know, I would say that for
me, it's just to keep it simple.

2979
02:55:41,120 --> 02:55:43,720
Mormon theology like places its
emphasis on the teachings that

2980
02:55:43,720 --> 02:55:48,480
we've been talking about so much
of John 17, three, knowing God

2981
02:55:48,480 --> 02:55:51,880
is what matters, not an image,
right?

2982
02:55:51,960 --> 02:55:53,880
There's a lot more that can be
said on that, right?

2983
02:55:54,680 --> 02:55:57,520
I don't want to just merely
reduce it to simply being that

2984
02:55:57,640 --> 02:56:00,320
that knowing God is what matters
and not the image.

2985
02:56:00,320 --> 02:56:03,880
But I'm not saying that an image
can't connect you to the divine.

2986
02:56:03,880 --> 02:56:07,680
I'm not saying that there's
entire prohibition on

2987
02:56:07,880 --> 02:56:09,320
representations.
They can help us.

2988
02:56:09,320 --> 02:56:11,840
You're not saying a picture of
Jesus hanging in someone's house

2989
02:56:11,840 --> 02:56:15,400
is is a bad thing.
Absolutely not right.

2990
02:56:15,400 --> 02:56:19,600
And you know, Moses is commanded
to make the brazen serpent,

2991
02:56:19,600 --> 02:56:21,720
right?
They're they're images that are

2992
02:56:21,920 --> 02:56:23,840
that are there and exist in
early Christianity.

2993
02:56:23,840 --> 02:56:26,200
That doesn't mean you honor them
and worship them.

2994
02:56:26,760 --> 02:56:29,960
And again, they try to make the
distinction by coming up with

2995
02:56:29,960 --> 02:56:32,840
two different words describe the
type of worship they're doing

2996
02:56:33,720 --> 02:56:35,600
the end of the day.
Is that really actually

2997
02:56:35,600 --> 02:56:39,240
something different in
functional like functionally on

2998
02:56:39,240 --> 02:56:43,120
a day-to-day basis?
And so I won't, I won't go any

2999
02:56:43,120 --> 02:56:46,280
more other than just saying that
if you really want to go deeper

3000
02:56:46,280 --> 02:56:50,000
onto that specific idea and the
idea that this is not an

3001
02:56:50,000 --> 02:56:56,600
Apostolic teaching, Robert
Bolin, whom pretty much most

3002
02:56:56,600 --> 02:56:58,920
people in this community know,
right?

3003
02:56:59,240 --> 02:57:02,680
The guy who runs the Scriptural
Mormonism podcast and the blog,

3004
02:57:03,280 --> 02:57:08,120
he is former Roman Catholic,
went to school in Roman Catholic

3005
02:57:08,120 --> 02:57:10,440
institutions, study theology.
He's done a lot more research on

3006
02:57:10,440 --> 02:57:14,480
this.
And I'm going to give him that.

3007
02:57:15,480 --> 02:57:17,920
Go look at his stuff that he's
got on.

3008
02:57:17,920 --> 02:57:19,520
He's got a whole podcast episode
on it.

3009
02:57:19,600 --> 02:57:22,280
He's written a lot about it on
his blog.

3010
02:57:22,880 --> 02:57:29,480
Go read him.
Yeah, I think, I think that

3011
02:57:29,480 --> 02:57:31,960
really covers a lot of that's
the seven councils in a

3012
02:57:31,960 --> 02:57:35,680
nutshell.
OK, let me ask you this question

3013
02:57:35,680 --> 02:57:37,360
and I'll ask for your final
thoughts.

3014
02:57:39,880 --> 02:57:44,440
In the Protestant Reformation,
are any of the problems that

3015
02:57:44,440 --> 02:57:46,800
creeped up through these
councils remedied?

3016
02:57:53,230 --> 02:57:56,230
Maybe.
Maybe which one?

3017
02:57:57,960 --> 02:57:59,920
So the Trinity is reaffirmed,
right?

3018
02:57:59,920 --> 02:58:05,800
It's obviously a Protestant
doctrine, maybe not doctrinally.

3019
02:58:05,800 --> 02:58:08,400
I would I would definitely say,
right.

3020
02:58:08,600 --> 02:58:12,480
Their whole point is to to cut
the ties of this consolidated

3021
02:58:12,480 --> 02:58:15,800
power grab that have been taking
place over these 500 years.

3022
02:58:16,680 --> 02:58:20,840
And at that by the time of the
Protestant Reformation in the

3023
02:58:20,840 --> 02:58:23,720
1500s, you know, over 1000
years.

3024
02:58:24,400 --> 02:58:29,600
And right, they recognize the
corruption that's going on in

3025
02:58:29,600 --> 02:58:31,560
Rome.
They recognize the corruption

3026
02:58:31,560 --> 02:58:33,560
that's in the church.
And they're seeking to tear

3027
02:58:33,560 --> 02:58:37,080
apart.
Ideally, they want to reform,

3028
02:58:37,080 --> 02:58:38,400
right?
They want to say, look, this

3029
02:58:38,400 --> 02:58:41,160
institution, it can be good.
We want to be united.

3030
02:58:41,160 --> 02:58:43,760
We want to be one.
We want that spirit of unity.

3031
02:58:45,160 --> 02:58:47,840
But there need to be some
changes to allow for that to

3032
02:58:47,840 --> 02:58:50,480
happen.
And then the Catholic Church

3033
02:58:50,480 --> 02:58:53,520
cast them out, right?
Like Martin Luther didn't want

3034
02:58:53,520 --> 02:58:55,880
to leave the Catholic Church.
Right.

3035
02:58:56,960 --> 02:59:01,560
He wanted, he loved it, he loved
that institution, he served that

3036
02:59:01,560 --> 02:59:08,560
institution.
And it was only because he said

3037
02:59:08,560 --> 02:59:13,320
we ought to obey God rather than
man that he was forced out of

3038
02:59:13,320 --> 02:59:15,400
it.
And I know that there are many

3039
02:59:15,400 --> 02:59:21,040
of us in the of the Saints
scattered abroad in the

3040
02:59:21,040 --> 02:59:25,320
Restoration, the fundamentalist
who have felt the same way as

3041
02:59:25,680 --> 02:59:35,960
Luther did this idea that.
Doctrinally to doctrine clean up

3042
02:59:35,960 --> 02:59:39,080
that issue that I like 1 I can
think of right off the top of my

3043
02:59:39,080 --> 02:59:42,200
head is sure, it definitely
spread the authority out, right?

3044
02:59:42,200 --> 02:59:45,560
They definitely said they they
definitely said we're not going

3045
02:59:45,560 --> 02:59:49,400
to pay attention to just one man
from Rome dictating to us,

3046
02:59:50,400 --> 02:59:53,520
right?
But other than that, and, and

3047
02:59:53,520 --> 02:59:55,960
that's why I'm asking you,
because you were on the inside

3048
02:59:55,960 --> 02:59:58,800
here, I can't think of another
thing that gets corrected

3049
02:59:58,800 --> 03:00:01,800
through the Reformation.
I'm willing to be wrong here,

3050
03:00:02,480 --> 03:00:06,240
but.
Yeah, You know, maybe, maybe, I

3051
03:00:06,240 --> 03:00:08,320
don't know.
I mean, so a lot of other

3052
03:00:08,320 --> 03:00:10,480
heresies come out of the
Protestant Reformation, right?

3053
03:00:10,480 --> 03:00:12,560
They did a good, they did
certain good things, and they

3054
03:00:12,560 --> 03:00:14,440
got away from that authority
structure.

3055
03:00:15,000 --> 03:00:17,440
They didn't, even though they
got away from the authority

3056
03:00:17,440 --> 03:00:20,080
structure, they did not get back
to the proper authority

3057
03:00:20,080 --> 03:00:26,920
structure, right.
In some ways they in imitate

3058
03:00:27,120 --> 03:00:29,960
some of the corruption of the
authority structure and

3059
03:00:29,960 --> 03:00:32,920
Catholicism, like John Calvin
was a tyrant.

3060
03:00:33,560 --> 03:00:37,120
Go to go to Geneva when John
Calvin's alive and you're not a

3061
03:00:37,120 --> 03:00:43,720
Calvinist or a Protestant.
He killed people like he had

3062
03:00:43,720 --> 03:00:45,560
people killed or didn't think
like he did.

3063
03:00:45,960 --> 03:00:49,000
John Calvin is an evil man whom
I think is rotting in hell.

3064
03:00:49,000 --> 03:00:50,800
At least I hope he is.
But.

3065
03:00:53,080 --> 03:00:54,960
So he's not getting a Christmas
card this year from.

3066
03:00:55,640 --> 03:00:59,680
Not from me, Lord.
Lord, forgive me.

3067
03:00:59,680 --> 03:01:02,480
Lord, forgive me for my my
comments about John Calvin.

3068
03:01:02,520 --> 03:01:03,480
I do.
No, it's good.

3069
03:01:03,800 --> 03:01:09,800
I, I, I think he's a Wretch.
What he taught was evil and his

3070
03:01:09,800 --> 03:01:12,280
actions backed it up.
But.

3071
03:01:13,160 --> 03:01:14,680
But other than that, a great
guy.

3072
03:01:15,200 --> 03:01:17,880
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Would love to sit down and have

3073
03:01:17,880 --> 03:01:18,760
a.
Coffee if you get past the

3074
03:01:18,760 --> 03:01:22,040
murdering and and and doctrinal
heresy.

3075
03:01:22,040 --> 03:01:25,560
Just a great guy.
Yeah, you know, you go to the

3076
03:01:25,560 --> 03:01:27,640
pub, have a beer with him, It'd
be nice, right?

3077
03:01:28,720 --> 03:01:32,200
No.
But yeah, I don't know.

3078
03:01:32,200 --> 03:01:35,320
Because then you get sola
scriptura, sola gratia, sola

3079
03:01:35,320 --> 03:01:39,120
fidei, all these scripture
alone, grace alone, faith alone.

3080
03:01:39,160 --> 03:01:42,960
And it's it's about swinging the
pendulum back so far because of

3081
03:01:42,960 --> 03:01:45,520
the fact that the pendulum have
been swung so far the other way

3082
03:01:45,520 --> 03:01:48,960
by the church we as we separated
from, we're going to go all the

3083
03:01:49,040 --> 03:01:50,880
way this way.
They have their scriptural

3084
03:01:50,880 --> 03:01:53,600
justification for doing that
that they argue about.

3085
03:01:55,160 --> 03:02:01,520
But yeah, and a lot of heresy,
what what the Reformation does

3086
03:02:01,520 --> 03:02:03,880
that's so important for us as
Latter Day Saints that we can

3087
03:02:03,880 --> 03:02:09,000
honor it for, is that it creates
a system by which religious

3088
03:02:09,000 --> 03:02:13,720
freedom can flourish without
which the American system does

3089
03:02:13,720 --> 03:02:17,400
not come into place, right?
If the idea of America's a free

3090
03:02:17,400 --> 03:02:21,160
religious society does not come
about Calvinism and

3091
03:02:21,160 --> 03:02:26,640
Protestantism really shapes
early American the the design of

3092
03:02:26,640 --> 03:02:29,720
the American government, right?
The down to the idea of the

3093
03:02:29,720 --> 03:02:33,360
separation of powers even all
these things are because of

3094
03:02:33,360 --> 03:02:35,680
Calvinism.
So I did do some good things,

3095
03:02:40,120 --> 03:02:43,160
right.
But no, I don't know what they

3096
03:02:43,160 --> 03:02:44,960
restored.
I don't think they they weren't

3097
03:02:44,960 --> 03:02:46,160
restores.
They were reformers.

3098
03:02:47,200 --> 03:02:48,920
Right.
OK, that's good.

3099
03:02:49,000 --> 03:02:50,480
That's what I wanted to bring
out there.

3100
03:02:51,000 --> 03:02:55,880
Yeah, I'm going to let you close
out what you have to say here on

3101
03:02:55,880 --> 03:02:57,200
this.
OK.

3102
03:02:58,360 --> 03:03:07,160
And then I'll carry it home.
I'll just be brief and say that

3103
03:03:10,440 --> 03:03:13,560
the restoration ought to mean
everything to us.

3104
03:03:15,400 --> 03:03:23,040
There is so much noise and so
many enemies of the gospel of

3105
03:03:23,040 --> 03:03:27,880
Christ who are trying and coming
after us, and I will call them

3106
03:03:27,880 --> 03:03:30,080
for what they are, enemies of
the gospel of Christ.

3107
03:03:30,880 --> 03:03:34,320
Anyone who seeks to destroy this
gospel, that is the restored

3108
03:03:34,320 --> 03:03:39,200
gospel of Jesus Christ, is an
enemy of the cross and ought to

3109
03:03:39,200 --> 03:03:42,600
be called a repentance.
We should not pull a John Calvin

3110
03:03:42,600 --> 03:03:47,720
and have them killed, but we
ought to call them for what they

3111
03:03:47,720 --> 03:03:54,560
are and call them to be who they
ought to be, who they their

3112
03:03:54,560 --> 03:03:58,080
divine design in Christ, which
is at one with his church.

3113
03:03:58,560 --> 03:04:01,440
And we are in a bad situation in
Mormonism right now ourselves

3114
03:04:01,440 --> 03:04:06,720
where we are not at one either.
If the if the apostasy teaches

3115
03:04:06,720 --> 03:04:12,360
us anything, the great apostasy,
it teaches us and calls us to be

3116
03:04:12,360 --> 03:04:14,640
better, to be higher, to be
holier.

3117
03:04:15,760 --> 03:04:19,480
It calls us to look inwardly in
our own selves and at the

3118
03:04:19,480 --> 03:04:22,280
restoration more broadly and
say, how can we come back

3119
03:04:22,280 --> 03:04:25,720
together?
Some, some splits are

3120
03:04:25,720 --> 03:04:27,880
irreparable.
You're not going to convince the

3121
03:04:27,880 --> 03:04:32,680
RLDS folks that polygamy is
righteous and that we ought to

3122
03:04:32,680 --> 03:04:36,480
live it today, right?
You're not going to convince

3123
03:04:36,480 --> 03:04:40,240
them that Brigham Young is the
proper successor to the Prophet

3124
03:04:40,240 --> 03:04:44,360
Joseph.
You're not going to convince

3125
03:04:44,360 --> 03:04:48,440
certain members of the Elias
Church also of these doctrines

3126
03:04:48,560 --> 03:04:51,080
that were taught by the early
brethren to be true.

3127
03:04:53,080 --> 03:04:57,640
But we need to do everything in
our power and work to boldly

3128
03:04:57,640 --> 03:05:00,320
proclaim the gospel, to be
rooted in it.

3129
03:05:00,360 --> 03:05:03,880
To recognize that the history of
the church points to all of

3130
03:05:03,880 --> 03:05:06,480
this, points to this restoration
that's coming.

3131
03:05:08,200 --> 03:05:12,160
And that all of that, as we said
last week, is merely meant to

3132
03:05:12,160 --> 03:05:15,080
teach us something about what
God is doing in our hearts.

3133
03:05:15,640 --> 03:05:17,440
And that is to restore us to
wholeness.

3134
03:05:17,440 --> 03:05:20,360
Because we are not whole.
We are broken just as the church

3135
03:05:20,360 --> 03:05:23,760
is broken.
Today we are calling the church

3136
03:05:23,760 --> 03:05:25,600
to repentance.
We are calling ourselves to

3137
03:05:25,600 --> 03:05:27,480
repentance because we are part
of the church.

3138
03:05:28,440 --> 03:05:31,720
And you know, whether the
whether the Elias Church

3139
03:05:31,720 --> 03:05:34,680
recognizes you or me as members
doesn't matter.

3140
03:05:34,960 --> 03:05:38,760
Whether anyone in Christianity
recognizes us as members of the

3141
03:05:38,760 --> 03:05:42,120
church collectively, it does not
matter.

3142
03:05:43,000 --> 03:05:48,160
What matters is Christ and being
restored to Him and fighting

3143
03:05:48,160 --> 03:05:51,120
with every last breath that we
have to come to wholeness.

3144
03:05:54,240 --> 03:05:57,520
That's great.
That's beautiful. 100%.

3145
03:06:00,800 --> 03:06:05,840
So as as I've sat here and we
went through this, both these

3146
03:06:05,840 --> 03:06:12,440
episodes, it becomes very
apparent that a restoration is

3147
03:06:12,560 --> 03:06:18,320
absolutely needed.
If not, God doesn't care about

3148
03:06:18,320 --> 03:06:20,440
his children.
I'll just put it that way

3149
03:06:22,960 --> 03:06:27,680
because we have you have shown
here through through three hours

3150
03:06:27,680 --> 03:06:34,920
here, just how much was changed
in those early years, in those

3151
03:06:34,920 --> 03:06:40,120
early centuries.
The scope in which things are

3152
03:06:40,120 --> 03:06:45,080
changed and fly in the face of
revealed scripture is both

3153
03:06:45,440 --> 03:06:49,160
terrifying and breathtaking all
at the same time.

3154
03:06:49,680 --> 03:06:53,040
Right.
So there's that.

3155
03:06:53,400 --> 03:06:58,080
We needed a restoration, and
God, in the love for the love of

3156
03:06:58,080 --> 03:07:02,520
his children, made sure it
happened, and then made sure

3157
03:07:02,520 --> 03:07:05,240
that the man who was the
instrument of that restoration

3158
03:07:05,640 --> 03:07:10,040
sealed this all up in his own
blood, that being Joseph Smith.

3159
03:07:14,320 --> 03:07:18,920
Joseph gets too much right
anciently to cast him off as

3160
03:07:18,920 --> 03:07:28,560
just a good guesser.
There is too much there now as

3161
03:07:28,560 --> 03:07:33,760
Mormons.
I'll just call it like I see it.

3162
03:07:34,080 --> 03:07:41,920
We have been far too passive in
how we understand the first

3163
03:07:41,920 --> 03:07:45,840
vision.
Far too passive.

3164
03:07:47,280 --> 03:07:52,400
And the result of that has been
US turning the other cheek for

3165
03:07:52,400 --> 03:07:54,000
the better part of a century
now.

3166
03:07:56,640 --> 03:07:58,720
And we should turn the other
cheek when we can.

3167
03:07:59,280 --> 03:08:05,240
However, we are now in a place
where men like, and I'm going to

3168
03:08:05,240 --> 03:08:08,880
name the names Mark Driscoll,
his right hand man.

3169
03:08:10,640 --> 03:08:15,480
We have people like Candace
Owens, we have other theologians

3170
03:08:15,480 --> 03:08:19,280
and pastors of mega churches who
it would be interesting to see

3171
03:08:19,280 --> 03:08:26,160
their books by the way their
their their financials level

3172
03:08:26,160 --> 03:08:29,440
charge after charge, whether
that is Joseph Smith's a con

3173
03:08:29,440 --> 03:08:32,920
man, Joseph Smith is a
pedophile, Joseph Smith is a

3174
03:08:32,920 --> 03:08:35,960
liar, a money digger, you name
it.

3175
03:08:37,480 --> 03:08:41,040
No, he's none of those things.
He is a restorer.

3176
03:08:41,040 --> 03:08:44,840
He's not a reformer because a
restoration was needed.

3177
03:08:46,200 --> 03:08:53,120
And it's about time that maybe
we push back just a little bit.

3178
03:08:54,280 --> 03:08:58,320
And the the hopes in this
episode is that it equips you,

3179
03:08:58,960 --> 03:09:01,880
whether you're LDS, whether
you're fundamentalist, to

3180
03:09:01,880 --> 03:09:06,280
understand that our claims are
not as shaky as what the other

3181
03:09:06,280 --> 03:09:10,560
side would hope they would be.
They are threatened by us

3182
03:09:10,560 --> 03:09:12,440
because they know we're on to
something.

3183
03:09:13,640 --> 03:09:17,800
They wouldn't spend the time in
their church meetings when,

3184
03:09:17,800 --> 03:09:21,040
quite frankly, they could be
asking for more money and piling

3185
03:09:21,040 --> 03:09:23,320
that up.
Instead, they got to take time

3186
03:09:23,320 --> 03:09:26,480
out to bash on the Mormons.
Why is that?

3187
03:09:27,080 --> 03:09:30,400
Well, look, I can tell you why.
It is because they're nervous.

3188
03:09:30,480 --> 03:09:33,720
And they should be nervous.
They absolutely should.

3189
03:09:33,720 --> 03:09:38,800
Because when you examine the
history of this close right,

3190
03:09:38,800 --> 03:09:41,880
like we have just done here and
we look at it, what were these

3191
03:09:41,880 --> 03:09:43,800
councils?
What were the the purpose?

3192
03:09:44,240 --> 03:09:47,120
They told you what it was, It
was political consolidation of

3193
03:09:47,120 --> 03:09:53,920
power and it was to to unite an
entire empire, right?

3194
03:09:54,120 --> 03:09:56,720
And how did they get there?
Wasn't by revelation.

3195
03:09:56,800 --> 03:09:59,280
It was by opinion.
And they told you that too.

3196
03:10:00,120 --> 03:10:02,520
They said it's our opinion that
these things are the way they

3197
03:10:02,520 --> 03:10:06,640
are.
There's an old adage from

3198
03:10:06,640 --> 03:10:11,240
boxers.
I worked with a boxer once and

3199
03:10:11,240 --> 03:10:14,160
he said it's better to be on
your toes and on your heels,

3200
03:10:14,920 --> 03:10:17,040
right?
If you're a boxer, you're always

3201
03:10:17,040 --> 03:10:18,760
on your toes.
Your should be, you should be

3202
03:10:18,760 --> 03:10:22,200
moving around, you should be
bouncing around, being hard to

3203
03:10:22,200 --> 03:10:24,640
touch, being hard to hit.
When you get punched in the

3204
03:10:24,640 --> 03:10:27,400
face, you go on your heels
trying to regain your balance.

3205
03:10:28,240 --> 03:10:31,840
Yeah.
For too long we've just, we've

3206
03:10:31,840 --> 03:10:33,880
been fine to go out there and
take a couple to the jaw.

3207
03:10:34,360 --> 03:10:37,840
Well, it might be time to go on
the offensive a little bit.

3208
03:10:38,040 --> 03:10:41,280
And I'm not saying go out there
and just start something, but

3209
03:10:41,280 --> 03:10:43,640
don't be afraid to drop the gem
once in a while.

3210
03:10:43,640 --> 03:10:48,760
That'll put them on their heels
because they got to know the the

3211
03:10:48,760 --> 03:10:51,920
the restored gospel of Jesus
Christ is defensible.

3212
03:10:52,760 --> 03:10:56,640
It is not indefensible.
One of the ways that can be done

3213
03:10:56,640 --> 03:11:00,160
is showing the obvious errors.
By now should be obvious to

3214
03:11:00,160 --> 03:11:05,040
anyone, and I challenge anybody
to challenge the research that

3215
03:11:05,040 --> 03:11:07,920
was done here because I think
they will be lacking

3216
03:11:07,920 --> 03:11:11,600
significantly.
When Scripture does not match

3217
03:11:11,600 --> 03:11:18,560
your creeds, that is a problem
and the onus is on you to come

3218
03:11:18,560 --> 03:11:23,600
up with the solution.
The Trinity does not hold water

3219
03:11:23,800 --> 03:11:27,160
with the Hebrew or the Greek.
Scriptures just doesn't.

3220
03:11:27,560 --> 03:11:30,800
I hate to break the people and
there's no way that model works.

3221
03:11:31,320 --> 03:11:35,480
The only way that model works is
if the promise in John or the

3222
03:11:35,480 --> 03:11:40,280
the the advice in John 17 three
about coming to know who God is

3223
03:11:40,920 --> 03:11:43,360
is a misquoted Scripture.
That's it.

3224
03:11:43,920 --> 03:11:46,600
That's the only way that the
Trinity works.

3225
03:11:47,400 --> 03:11:51,160
Otherwise the Trinity tells you
you can't comprehend it.

3226
03:11:51,160 --> 03:11:53,400
Don't try.
So you have to ignore scripture

3227
03:11:54,080 --> 03:11:57,920
for your entire walk as a
disciple of Jesus Christ, not

3228
03:11:57,920 --> 03:12:03,560
someplace I would want to be.
And so I would say this, I think

3229
03:12:03,560 --> 03:12:07,880
it's time that we as Mormons,
LDS, fundamentalists, whatever,

3230
03:12:08,240 --> 03:12:12,200
it's time we get a little more
bold and we take up we take up

3231
03:12:12,200 --> 03:12:16,000
the mantle here and we we push
back where appropriate and when

3232
03:12:16,000 --> 03:12:19,000
needed.
I'm not saying go out and do do

3233
03:12:19,000 --> 03:12:22,000
railing accusation.
I'm not even saying pick the

3234
03:12:22,000 --> 03:12:27,560
fight, but if they want to pick
the fight, be obliged to meet

3235
03:12:27,560 --> 03:12:30,280
him on the battlefield of ideas
and have at it.

3236
03:12:31,200 --> 03:12:43,120
The next thing I'm going to say
is, is this when when you

3237
03:12:43,120 --> 03:12:50,040
encounter this, be measured, be
happy, push back.

3238
03:12:50,920 --> 03:12:54,560
But but by all means you, you
got to push back.

3239
03:12:54,560 --> 03:13:00,920
We're we're at that stage now,
our claims, bold as they are,

3240
03:13:01,520 --> 03:13:04,640
can be backed up and
substantiated and it doesn't

3241
03:13:04,640 --> 03:13:08,880
take anything else other than
doing the research that that

3242
03:13:08,880 --> 03:13:13,080
Braxton has put forward here.
There's nothing we have to fear

3243
03:13:13,080 --> 03:13:15,480
by digging into the records.
Go for it.

3244
03:13:17,080 --> 03:13:20,680
You have car Blanc, Go go study
it all out.

3245
03:13:21,160 --> 03:13:24,120
I'm sure you will come up with
the same conclusion I did, which

3246
03:13:24,120 --> 03:13:32,800
is this can stand on its own.
It does not require that we fit

3247
03:13:32,800 --> 03:13:37,320
in the mold of traditional or
orthodox Christianity.

3248
03:13:38,360 --> 03:13:44,320
And this is my last point, that
term Christian, how it gets used

3249
03:13:44,320 --> 03:13:50,720
an awful lot between Mormons and
Protestants, and they're quick

3250
03:13:50,720 --> 03:13:52,240
to tell us that we're not
Christian.

3251
03:13:53,600 --> 03:14:02,160
Stop trying to fit into the club
of of Protestantism.

3252
03:14:02,160 --> 03:14:04,800
It will not work.
There is too many differences.

3253
03:14:05,280 --> 03:14:09,600
And I think it's important that
we we give the other side their

3254
03:14:09,600 --> 03:14:12,440
deal when they say we have a
different Jesus, they're not

3255
03:14:12,440 --> 03:14:15,400
wrong.
They're not wrong.

3256
03:14:15,640 --> 03:14:18,160
And when they say, well, you
guys took the first shot by

3257
03:14:18,160 --> 03:14:21,640
calling all by by saying the
Lord said all of our creeds were

3258
03:14:21,640 --> 03:14:24,360
about an abomination.
Yes, you are.

3259
03:14:24,400 --> 03:14:27,600
Yeah, that's that's true.
And just stand on that.

3260
03:14:28,160 --> 03:14:33,360
You can keep the term Christian.
I'll just stick with with

3261
03:14:33,360 --> 03:14:38,360
disciple of Christ and we'll see
who God, God will favor in the

3262
03:14:38,360 --> 03:14:42,840
end.
And look to those Christians who

3263
03:14:42,840 --> 03:14:45,200
who are fine working with us.
Thank you.

3264
03:14:45,720 --> 03:14:52,600
Right, I'm I'm glad about that.
But I think the days of simping

3265
03:14:52,600 --> 03:14:55,480
after the title Christian need
to come to an end because it's

3266
03:14:55,480 --> 03:14:59,080
gross and it puts us on a very
weak foundation.

3267
03:15:00,760 --> 03:15:05,840
Put your trust firmly in the
restoration of, of Jesus Christ

3268
03:15:05,840 --> 03:15:09,240
in Jesus Christ himself.
That'll be enough.

3269
03:15:09,640 --> 03:15:12,200
But by all means, it's time to
start defending the faith a

3270
03:15:12,200 --> 03:15:14,360
little bit.
And I hope that this gives you

3271
03:15:14,360 --> 03:15:16,600
some some ammo and some fuel for
that.

3272
03:15:17,160 --> 03:15:20,600
Braxton, anything else you want
to say before I I wrap this up?

3273
03:15:21,040 --> 03:15:22,760
I want to quote.
I want to close with one more

3274
03:15:22,760 --> 03:15:26,080
quote that you you absolutely
totally brought to my mind.

3275
03:15:26,560 --> 03:15:31,600
Well, talking about the the
defensible nature of our message

3276
03:15:31,800 --> 03:15:39,240
and our faith, which we proclaim
BH Roberts is an early 70 and

3277
03:15:39,880 --> 03:15:43,840
super awesome dude.
You know, I, I've seen some guys

3278
03:15:44,000 --> 03:15:45,000
disagree with him.
That's cool.

3279
03:15:45,000 --> 03:15:46,400
It's fine.
You know, there's certain things

3280
03:15:46,400 --> 03:15:48,640
he did that might be
questionable, but I want to say

3281
03:15:48,640 --> 03:15:52,120
this that absolutely love he
wrote a book called studies in

3282
03:15:52,120 --> 03:15:54,560
the Book of Mormon.
He was trying to figure out the

3283
03:15:54,560 --> 03:15:58,040
origins of the Book of Mormon.
It's one of the earlier attempts

3284
03:15:58,040 --> 03:16:05,640
to understand the Book of Mormon
as a text, and it's grounding in

3285
03:16:05,640 --> 03:16:10,920
history and reality.
In that book, there's a letter

3286
03:16:10,920 --> 03:16:13,360
that he wrote, I believe it's a
letter.

3287
03:16:15,160 --> 03:16:17,760
He's talking about the Book of
Mormon itself.

3288
03:16:17,800 --> 03:16:22,000
Obviously that's the entirety of
the book, but anyways, he's

3289
03:16:22,000 --> 03:16:24,600
doing this investigation, he
gets all that.

3290
03:16:24,600 --> 03:16:28,120
He's gets confronted with all of
these difficult data points, and

3291
03:16:28,120 --> 03:16:31,040
some people have tried to accuse
BH Roberts of losing his faith

3292
03:16:31,040 --> 03:16:33,320
in the Book of Mormon.
I believe this demonstrates

3293
03:16:33,320 --> 03:16:35,720
that's absolutely false.
And he did continue to believe.

3294
03:16:36,040 --> 03:16:37,480
We know that from other outside
statements.

3295
03:16:37,560 --> 03:16:40,800
Anyway, he says this in the
letter that's included in the

3296
03:16:40,800 --> 03:16:45,360
book.
He says our faith in the Book of

3297
03:16:45,360 --> 03:16:50,400
Mormon, our testimony is
unshaken and unshakeable.

3298
03:16:51,160 --> 03:16:56,760
Throw whatever you want at it.
There is nothing that can tear

3299
03:16:56,760 --> 03:17:00,280
us off of this rock on which we
stand, Which rock is revelation.

3300
03:17:00,720 --> 03:17:04,400
And that continued revelation
which came originally in the

3301
03:17:04,400 --> 03:17:07,600
days past with the Bible, which
has continued to come to us with

3302
03:17:07,600 --> 03:17:10,880
the proof of Joseph's prophetic
calling in the Book of Mormon,

3303
03:17:11,360 --> 03:17:16,080
in his inspired revision of the
Bible, in the Doctrine and

3304
03:17:16,080 --> 03:17:21,880
Covenants which we have offered
up to the Church at large as a

3305
03:17:21,880 --> 03:17:26,520
witness of Christ's activities
in these days, in the Pearl of

3306
03:17:26,520 --> 03:17:29,240
great price which sees other
revelations restored.

3307
03:17:30,440 --> 03:17:32,320
These things are what they say
they are.

3308
03:17:32,320 --> 03:17:35,600
And they're going to be many
more great and marvellous truths

3309
03:17:35,600 --> 03:17:37,920
revealed.
Will you come?

3310
03:17:38,680 --> 03:17:41,880
Will you repent?
Will you be a part of this work,

3311
03:17:42,000 --> 03:17:46,680
this great unfolding, this
unshaken and unshakeable witness

3312
03:17:46,960 --> 03:17:52,240
of Christ's life, ministry
amongst us and his ancient

3313
03:17:52,240 --> 03:17:53,880
people?
We are all Israel.

3314
03:17:53,880 --> 03:17:58,640
We're one group of people who
have existed from long past and

3315
03:17:58,640 --> 03:18:01,000
we continue to exist today.
And that is our cry.

3316
03:18:01,560 --> 03:18:04,680
We are proclaiming come and be 1
Come to Zion.

3317
03:18:07,120 --> 03:18:09,360
Beautiful.
We'll wrap it up right there.

3318
03:18:09,400 --> 03:18:11,160
Hang out for just 5 minutes, all
right?

3319
03:18:11,280 --> 03:18:13,000
All right.
Awesome.

3320
03:18:13,280 --> 03:18:14,120
Bye everybody.