Episode #191: The Law Of Adoption W/Jacob Vidrine

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The.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast, dude, you're
back on.

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Hey, it's good to be back.
It is dude.

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It's.
Been too long?

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It has been too long.
I was just about to say that.

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We, we, we just get busy and
it's, it's hard and, and dude,

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you're putting out stuff, right?
I mean, you got stuff you're

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doing and it's, it's one of
those things that's hard to hard

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to catch up sometimes.
Yeah.

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I mean, you know, you, you've
got, you know, we both got

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families with, you know, mouths
to feed and just, you know, life

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never stops, right?
Never stops, dude.

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I'm glad that you're on though,
because I've been wanting to

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cover this for a while.
Right.

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And perhaps even more than Adam,
God, or any of those other old

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time doctrines.
This one is especially esoteric

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and this one is especially not
talked about much.

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And so as, as I was looking at
trying to piece something

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together to talk about the law
of adoption, your, your name

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kept coming up.
I was like, yeah, he's probably

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my guy for this.
And so I'm, I'm super jacked and

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I'm glad you're here, man.
Yeah, I'm happy to be here.

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This was actually one of the,
you know, as you're, as you're

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starting to journey into the
early teachings, this principle

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was actually one of the
significant principles that made

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me realize that something was
missing in what the church has

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preserved.
I mean, God bless the church for

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all the good that they do
preserve of the restoration.

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But when you're learning about
the teachings that were in the

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early days, you, you learn about
Adam, God and you realize

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there's a lot bigger picture of
our heavenly Father's

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relationship with us.
You learn about re baptism and

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all these other different little
practices or pieces of knowledge

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that, you know, pertain to the
fullness of the gospel.

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For me, when I learned about
adoption, I, you know, the one

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of the common ways it's
described in the church is, oh,

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they didn't really understand
what they were doing back then.

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But fortunately Woodruff was
able to get it all figured out.

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And you know, we're all we're,
we're all great now.

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You know, nothing really to look
back there.

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It's kind of one of the common
apologetics I've I've heard

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about adoption.
But then it was interestingly,

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it was a, it was a friend who
kind of pointed out that, you

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know, Woodruff when he's doing
away with this guy saying we

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don't really understand this as
much as we should have, should

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understand it.
And so I don't want anyone to

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basically practice this if we
don't, you know, until more

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revelation, more knowledge is
would be given.

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And so this friend kind of and I
was like, huh, that's very

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different than what I've been
told, you know, growing up

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about, you know, or understood
about what was going on back

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then.
And so that started me kind of

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deep diving into the early
teachings about the sealing

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principles and temple ordinances
and realizing there's just a

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whole nother world of the temple
doctrines that hasn't been

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preserved in mainstream
Mormonism.

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I don't know if you've, you
know, you've similarly had the

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door open to you realizing
there's a whole world of

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knowledge about the temple that
you know the the church hasn't

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really preserved.
No, no.

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And not just in covenant either.
Right.

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There is not only have they,
have they lost the, you know,

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just the whole parts of, of the
temple ceremony and the temple

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liturgy and, and certain
covenants, but they really have

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lost the meaning of it, right.
Every once in a while, when I

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was going to, when I was in the
LDS church again, I was a weekly

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temple attender.
Every once in a while you'd bump

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into some old guy who was
working at the temple and I'd

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make sure that after the
session, I stopped to pick his

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brain.
Because most of the time those

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old guys, they had, they had a
little something that they could

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remember, right, That mom or
Grant or grandpa had told them.

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And but you're right.
I mean, not only have we lost

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whole parts, but we've lost the
interpretation of it, right?

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The original ideas behind it.
And that's damaging, right?

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It would be like jumping in the
car and going for a drive and

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not knowing where you're going.
You might see some cool stuff

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along the way, but you're not
going to reach your destination.

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Yeah, absolutely.
I I felt the same way of talking

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to older, you know, people who
are older who remember what

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earlier versions of the
ordinances were like.

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And, you know, and
fundamentalism, you know, we've,

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you you've talked about it, I've
talked about it.

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How there's been kind of, you
know, there was this long period

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of, you know, just focusing on
plural marriage, doing the best

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we can until the church is set
in order is kind of what many

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early fundamentalists took the
attitude and there was a loss of

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being a temple worshipping
people.

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And if we're really trying to,
you know, perpetuate the

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fullness of the gospel, we, you
know, that is a big piece of the

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fullness of the gospel that, you
know, you can't be ignorant of

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there being this, you know, the
the temple and still be claiming

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to be perpetuating everything
that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young

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and John Taylor taught because
that was a big emphasis in their

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day.
And it's, you know, a very

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important aspect of the restored
gospel.

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You know, I go back, so I think,
oh, go ahead, sorry.

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You know, and, and so I would
say that regardless of what

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branch of the restoration we're
in, like there's a lot of

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knowledge that, you know, has
been preserved in different

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channels, like you said, with
older people in some cases,

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having knowledge about how
things used to be, you know,

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different people having
different historical access to

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different resources to, you
know, different insights.

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And so I think it's very
valuable to have conversations,

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you know, respectful
conversations, you know, not

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being disrespectful about
anything that is sacred, but to

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have these dialogues about the
temple doctrines in order to

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better understand, you know,
what Joseph Smith and his worthy

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contemporaries were trying to
teach.

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So absolutely.
Well dude, let's get into it.

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Law of adoption.
Yeah, so I guess the easiest way

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to to determine it's, it's
commonly referred to as sealing

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men to men in early Mormonism is
what it was called.

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And it was not.
You know, unfortunately with

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modern culture, there's people
who would want to twist that to

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be mean something that it's not,
you know, you know, and there's

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people who, who don't understand
what was going on that would

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say, you know, oh, what?
I've I've, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm

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uncomfortable with that kind of
language.

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But what they overwhelmingly
said was that there needs to be

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connections in the chain of the
priesthood and, and, and father

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son, connections in the chain of
the priesthood from Adam all the

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way to the last worthy
descendant to be born on earth.

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And so, you know, this is a
major aspect of the temple

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doctrines that were introduced
in Nauvoo and it was practiced

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extensively on the trek W where
they were, you know, it played a

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very vital role to the union and
facilitating the Saints really

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being a a real united family on
the trek West.

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And then it, you know, it kind
of faded out in early Utah kind

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of in the absence of a temple
where they, you know, they

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didn't have a temple for many
years.

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And so Brigham's kind of said,
we're going to wait until we

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have another temple to start
teaching these things, you know,

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again.
And he dies the year the Saint

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George Temple is completed, but
it's still on the on his mind

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throughout the 1850s, eighteen
60s, eighteen 70s.

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That's once they get the the
temples going in pioneer Utah.

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That's a major aspect of the
temple doctrines.

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And so there's a, this is one of
the most fascinating aspects of,

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of church history to me.
And I also, but at the same

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time, the more I research it,
the more I realize there's so

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much more research to be done on
the ceiling principles and early

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Mormonism.
I hope that what I've gathered

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can be beneficial to other
people.

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But even then, I admit the
limitations of of my own

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knowledge and research and
acknowledge there's a ton more

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that can be done.
And that's, that's what's really

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exciting to me is to realize
that there's always more

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research to be done on, on these
topics.

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So let let me see.
But before we go too much

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farther, I do want to make sure
that that the audience

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understands what this is right?
And and I'm going to lay out a

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scenario here.
And if this sounds incorrect,

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Jacob, please correct me.
But from what I understand is,

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is that let's say you are a guy
who's coming into Mormonism with

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your family and the rest of your
family has been like, well, good

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luck with that crazy stuff,
right?

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We don't want no part of that.
So you're going to go out West,

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right?
And look, going out West back

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then was not like going out West
today, right?

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You cannot make that drive in
two days and be in air

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conditioning, right?
This it's go, it's literally

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going to another country.
So you may never see your

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ancestors again, right?
And so one of the vital roles

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that the law of adoption filled,
right?

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And we'll talk about the
doctrine of it in a second.

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But the practice kind of was, is
that the, the, the head of that

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family would be, would be sealed
to another man as a patriarchal

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son.
Is that correct?

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And so then, then it then it
would be kind of the, the

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patriarchal father's
responsibility to look after

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this man and his family.
Is is that a quick, quick and

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dirty kind of synopsis of this?
Yeah, the, the way I look at it

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and you know, I really like that
terminology there.

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I think that, you know, I, I
really think that the purpose

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is, you know, there, there are
multiple purposes, but I think 2

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of the big purposes were being
linked to someone who can teach

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you more about those principles
so that you can become like God,

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you know, to teach you those
principles pertaining to

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exaltation and help you along
the path.

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And I think the other thing was
about, you know, having this,

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this real connection with the
Saints, this idea that the

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Saints were to be a, a united
family, I think was a very real

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aspect of Zion as Brigham
envisioned it, as Joseph

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envisioned it, where they wanted
the Saints to be. 1 You know, as

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Jesus said, if ye are not one,
ye are not mine.

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Yeah.
Or, you know, that's actually

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the DNC right there.
But in Jesus's last prayer in

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John 17, it was, you know, he
was praying for the union of his

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disciples.
And so I can one of the things

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that I can see that some people
get very uncomfortable with this

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because they can think of it as
am I throwing away my family

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relationships by this principle?
And that seems to be a, a, a

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reoccurring concern that this is
about.

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But this is I, I don't, I, I
think that would be

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misunderstanding it just as I
would think that somebody

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reading the New Testament where
Jesus emphasized, you know, your

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commitment to the Gospel, you
know, superseding, you know,

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familial commitments in some, in
some ways, you know, that some

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people think that, oh, Jesus was
saying, you know, throw away

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your family.
I don't think that was that that

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isn't the correct interpretation
of Jesus's words.

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I don't think that adoption was
about throwing away your family,

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but it was about gaining a new
extended family is kind of the,

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the way that I would look at it.
And so, you know, I, I just kind

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of go back to the endowment
because I really like something

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you mentioned in the previous,
in a previous discussion you had

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where you said that the
endowment is like Ellis Island

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to get you into, you know,
citizenship in a way into, you

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know, this new country.
But then you, you said that you

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use the analogy of following the
spirit and being taught by the

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spirit is an is a way to learn
the language.

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I really like that analogy.
And I'd say that adoption in a

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way is like having a sponsor in
that country.

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To.
Take you in and help integrate

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you into that new society.
If we're talking about the

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Kingdom of God is like a literal
Kingdom, you know where where

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we're supposed to have real
relationships.

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That's good.
One of the things I'd say with

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the sealing principles when we
talk about eternal family in

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00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:30,560
like mainstream LDS context, you
know, at a surface level, it

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00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:32,600
sounds all good.
It sounds great.

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00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,600
You know, the kind of slogan
families are forever.

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00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,600
Don't you want to see your
family again?

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00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,480
You know, that's that's how they
sell you on, you know, joining

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00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,720
and going, you know, becoming
temple worthy and going through

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00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,200
the temple.
I think that's that's all good

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00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,440
and right.
I mean that that's not bad at

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00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:54,640
like as an entry level
introduction to like the eternal

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00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:56,360
family doctrine.
Like I'm not saying that's

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00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,120
wrong.
It's very similar to when we're

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00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,760
talking about there's different
layers to understanding the

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00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,280
atonement.
As an example, there's a very

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00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,920
simplistic explanation you might
give to a child where you say

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00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:12,680
it's like the one child is good
and the other children are all

237
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,080
bad.
And the one child gets, you

238
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,520
know, is willing because he
loves the other children to take

239
00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,080
the punishment.
And, you know, the other ones

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00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,800
are, are, you know, and that's,
that's a good analogy for a

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00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:25,680
child.
But then as you grow up and you

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00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,440
become more mature and thinking
about the atonement, you, you

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00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:34,440
realize that doesn't quite
scratch all the nuance of having

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00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,640
a, you know, of, of
understanding the atonement.

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00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,960
Like there's a lot more to it.
There's transformative aspects

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00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,600
to it.
And there was a lot, you know,

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00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:46,120
there's a lot richer
understanding of of it available

248
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,760
for those who really seek to
gain a deeper understanding of

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00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,000
the atonement.
And similarly, I'd say with the

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00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,360
sealing principles, the idea of,
you know, eternal families that

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00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,600
you can see your loved ones
again is a great introduction.

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00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:06,400
But then if you start to have
that simplistic view, you, if

253
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,840
you stay there, you might
encounter problems or bumps down

254
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,920
the road, say if you have family
members, like if your spouse

255
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,640
loses their faith or you have
children who go astray, There's,

256
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,400
there's people that are like,
well, that makes it almost seem

257
00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,720
divisive.
You know, it's kind of I, I

258
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,000
don't know if you've ever had
conversations with people about

259
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,960
the eternal family and ceilings
where they're like, well, this

260
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:35,160
can be a divisive thing if there
are family members who aren't,

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00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,320
you know, worthy and aren't
living up to those covenants.

262
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,720
I'm not.
Does that sound familiar?

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00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,640
Yeah, you know, and, and look,
I'll, I'll say this too, I can't

264
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,240
remember what section of the
Doctrine of Covenants in, I

265
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,920
think it's 1:30 or 1:31.
You can correct me if I'm wrong

266
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,320
here.
It's a curse.

267
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:55,880
I have.
I can remember what I read.

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00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,440
I can never remember where I
read it, but in, in one of those

269
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,320
sections it talks about, and
this is before 132, right?

270
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:09,160
And Joseph's basically the Lord
tells Joseph the same sociality

271
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,720
that exists here exists on the
other side, only with greater

272
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,480
Felicity and glory.
OK.

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00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:22,000
And so I look at that and I say,
OK, so maybe 132 isn't about the

274
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,200
separation from your loved ones
if they mess up, right?

275
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,640
There seems to be something else
at work here.

276
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,640
And I do think I, I don't think
it was anything that was

277
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,040
developed nefariously, but I do
think it was an

278
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,520
oversimplification of this of
the eternities that led to the

279
00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,560
ability.
And I'm going to call it like I

280
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,880
see it here a little bit, that
the LDS church could almost kind

281
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:46,960
of hold your family for ransom,
right?

282
00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,120
So if you or any of your family.
Split up.

283
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,440
Or if I shouldn't say spliff, if
somebody didn't went a different

284
00:16:55,440 --> 00:17:00,360
direction religiously.
Well, gosh, now, now you're

285
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,520
going to be missing a kid in
heaven, right?

286
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,960
You're not going to see see that
kid ever again.

287
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,960
And I'm not sure I'd buy that
right?

288
00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,599
I think you will.
It kind of it kind of flies in

289
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:14,920
the face of the quote, like I
don't know if you remember where

290
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,240
Ann Hatch shared the quote where
Orson F Whitney recalled Joseph

291
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,119
Smith saying, you know, if
you're, you know, if you are

292
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,319
worthy, you will continue to be
able to reach out and to, you

293
00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:29,800
know, keep, you know, don't give
up on your children.

294
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,640
You know, you will keep, you
know, you will be able to keep

295
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:37,560
that relationship and keep
extending, you know, the offers

296
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,120
of repentance and full salvation
if they, you know, as you know,

297
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,280
if as long as you keep your
covenants, you, it will be able

298
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,760
to bless your family.
You know, if you know, even if

299
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,000
they don't, but you will be able
to, you know, there's a, there's

300
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,640
a very fascinating and powerful
thing there with the sealing

301
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:03,320
principles and the authority of
the priesthood that extends

302
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,080
beyond just yourself and your
merit.

303
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:07,880
You know your your, your spouse,
you know.

304
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,840
Absolutely, absolutely.
So yeah, I, I have heard that

305
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,960
before.
And, and like I said, I think

306
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,920
it's twofold.
I think, I think that and again,

307
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:17,840
I don't think it started from a
nefarious place.

308
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,480
I think it's probably started
from a place of of

309
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,720
oversimplification a little bit
and that lent itself to to some

310
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:26,480
really nasty things down the
road.

311
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:29,600
Yeah.
And I definitely don't think

312
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,720
it's always, you know, I don't
necessarily think that there's

313
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,800
bad will in that perspective,
but I do think that it can be

314
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,520
weaponized in a way.
And especially I don't know if

315
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,560
if people have been in in, you
know, in fundamentalist groups

316
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,400
or in the church where people
have used that as a weapon to

317
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,560
say, if you don't, if you don't
go the certain path, you are

318
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,440
going to lose your family, you
know, and that's, you know, I

319
00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:00,480
don't, I think that's a total
abuse of of what was being

320
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,440
taught in the early days.
And so, you know, so we have

321
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,720
this issue there with, you know,
weaponizing the eternal family.

322
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,560
I would say with the endowment,
you know, I, I think it's almost

323
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,680
cheapened in some way.
The endowment where keep and

324
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,040
this is kind of probably
contributed in many ways to the

325
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,720
endowment being watered down in
the church over the years is if

326
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,000
it's becoming about selling this
eternal family and we want to

327
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,000
get as many people as fast as
they can or, you know, into the

328
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,320
temple, regardless of how real
serious they are in their

329
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,920
commitment to the gospel.
You know, they've they've kind

330
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,200
of it makes a lot of people kind
of you know, who go there who

331
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,520
aren't really prepared to go
there.

332
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,840
You know it's. 100.
Percent.

333
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,160
I mean, I've talked to people
who are in the in the mainstream

334
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,960
LDS church who kind of feel like
the endowment is in many ways

335
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,960
been cheapened by appealing to
what would be the lowest common

336
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,600
denominator of church members
rather than being something

337
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,440
that's sacred.
And for those church members who

338
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:11,680
are striving for exaltation in
the celestial Kingdom, like.

339
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:18,360
That's 100% correct.
And, and look, you should always

340
00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:24,160
be willing to make the
ordinances available if they

341
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,480
qualify, right?
And I'm not saying that from a

342
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,400
place of wanting to hoard
ordinances or hoard power, it's

343
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,200
quite the opposite.
I don't want to hurt people,

344
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,280
right?
And if, if you have people go in

345
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,760
and take those covenants and
they're not ready, that can do

346
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,400
all sorts of damage, right?
And so I I I do think that that

347
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,240
is a huge problem.
And.

348
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,720
I want to tell you this, there
was a great quote by by Thomas

349
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,920
Paine in I don't think it was
common sense.

350
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,320
What was what was the pamphlet
he wrote during this

351
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,280
Revolutionary War blanket?
And that's that's your area of,

352
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,000
of history.
That's gonna drive me nuts.

353
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,200
Getting old sucks.
But anyway, it's the one that

354
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,520
talks about the Sunshine Soldier
and the the the the Fair Weather

355
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,960
Patriots.
But he basically says heaven

356
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,840
knows best how to fix a price to
her goods, right?

357
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:27,280
And I think that, that with the
endowment, you, you, you want it

358
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,760
available, but you also want
people reaching for it, right?

359
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,640
Because there is tremendous
growth.

360
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,160
I'll, I'll just use a story
here.

361
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,800
I remember when Amber and I were
working really hard to get get

362
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,960
to the temple when we were in
the LDS church.

363
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,120
And I mean, those were some of
the more spiritual times in my

364
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:48,240
life because we were like on a
mission, right?

365
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,360
We were, we were going to live
our best lives and, and get

366
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:52,880
there.
And those were some of the most

367
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,800
spiritual spirit filled times in
our lives as a couple because we

368
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,560
were working for that common
goal.

369
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,320
And I think sometimes we're
selling people short by not

370
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,480
letting them go through the
process.

371
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,040
And this is 1.
So I really think that, you

372
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,480
know, the temple is, which has
been sold as a way to have your

373
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,640
family eternally is, you know,
the, the temple really is about

374
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,840
becoming a God.
It's learning how to become a

375
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,800
God is the real ultimate purpose
of the temple.

376
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,280
And one of the fruits of, of
becoming a God is that you will

377
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,040
have those relationships
continue, you know, and the

378
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,640
blessings that flow from those
relationships continue.

379
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,600
But, you know, that's kind of
confusing the, the, the

380
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,440
byproducts with the process that
gives you those blessings.

381
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,520
And so, you know, yeah,
absolutely the blessing should

382
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,600
be available to those who are,
you know, prepare and qualify.

383
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,280
But, you know, we also need to
be careful that they aren't

384
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,040
becoming too common where people
are getting them who really

385
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,520
don't really care about them or
don't, you know, aren't, aren't

386
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,440
prepared to understand them.
And so then it you know, it, it,

387
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,400
it could in some ways be a very
big stumbling block for them.

388
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,680
And so, yeah, so I so getting
back to the eternal, how this

389
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,880
kind of ties with the eternal
family doctrine.

390
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:18,680
So, you know, eternal family
sounds great to people who have

391
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,720
a good family relationship,
right?

392
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,880
If you really loved your
parents, if you really had a

393
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,600
good relationship with them, if
you have a good relationship

394
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,760
with your spouse and your
children, that is an incredible

395
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,280
selling point of the restored
gospel, the idea that these

396
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,600
relationships can continue into
eternity.

397
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:43,160
But then you get in the, where
you get into problems are when

398
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:50,760
people have very broken and in
some cases very poor family

399
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,480
relationships where there may be
neglect, there may be abuse,

400
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:56,880
there may be mistreatment.
You know, there's a lot of

401
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,880
things that can go wrong,
unfortunately, in, in families

402
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,920
and when you have cases of
those, you know, unfortunate

403
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,880
family situations, eternal
family doesn't really isn't a

404
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,960
really good selling point in the
gospel for those people, you

405
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:17,280
know, because they're like, so
if even if my, my dad did

406
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,360
terrible things to his family
and you know, lived absolutely

407
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,960
unworthy of his calling as a
father and I, I reach out, I

408
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,040
feel terrible for people who've
had family situations like that.

409
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,360
You know, he's like, how is, you
know, how does it make sense for

410
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,480
that?
He's going to be like my father

411
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,320
in the celestial Kingdom if he
is not living, you know, if he

412
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:47,520
did not live in a way to merit,
you know that where I don't even

413
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,440
think that, you know, he would
even want it even if he had the

414
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,360
opportunity, you know, And so
there's a lot of unfortunate

415
00:24:55,360 --> 00:25:01,600
broken family situations where,
you know, that just isn't a good

416
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,800
selling point.
And that's really how I would

417
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,760
introduce the law of adoption to
someone is that the gospel

418
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,960
isn't.
So not everyone is going to go

419
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,520
to the celestial Kingdom.
Like we understand that the

420
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,000
celestial Kingdom, you know,
Jesus says, you know, as

421
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,480
straight as the way and narrowed
the gates to those who who enter

422
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,720
and that's repeated all over the
scriptures.

423
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:31,160
And so the purpose of adoption
wasn't so much about being able

424
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,000
to see your family in the
eternities.

425
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,160
It was about establishing a
relationship with someone who

426
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,720
you understand is going to go to
this, you know who's who's not

427
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,160
just probably going to the
social Kingdom based on their

428
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,400
choices and their values in this
life and their example to

429
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,680
others.
You know, the light that shines

430
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,400
from how they live the gospel.
But it was also, you know, about

431
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,120
somebody that's leading you on
the path to go to the celestial

432
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:01,160
Kingdom.
So a quote that I, you know,

433
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,160
like by Heber C Kimball, he said
if we are righteous and keep

434
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,080
faithful all the commandments of
God, we with all that portion of

435
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,880
our wives and children who have
also been faithful, will go into

436
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,240
the celestial inheritance
prepared for us in the presence

437
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,960
of our God.
Will the unfaithful, disobedient

438
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,080
and unbelieving of our families
enter into us, with us into the

439
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,880
celestial Kingdom?
They will not, he said, the Lord

440
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,280
said to Ezekiel, son of man, the
House of Israel to me has become

441
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,080
dross.
So with our unbelieving and

442
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,320
disobedient of our families and
of those people, they will be

443
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,320
separated from the pure silver,
silver to occupy a place in the

444
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,440
mansions of our father according
to their worth.

445
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,720
And that doesn't mean you won't
be able to see them, but they're

446
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,400
just not going to be there in
that, you know, that celestial

447
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,400
family order.
And so really what Joseph Smith

448
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:54,400
was teaching about the the
celestial family or eternal

449
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,440
ceilings doctrine was about we
need to establish an

450
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:04,560
organization of the Saints who
are linked together to go going

451
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,800
towards the celestial Kingdom is
what the goal was there.

452
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,400
And the doctrine was actually
that Joseph Smith received the

453
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,840
same blessing that Abraham did
to be the father of the faithful

454
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,160
to this dispensation.
And so they taught that all the

455
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,760
Saints needed to be LinkedIn
worthy family lines going back

456
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,120
to Joseph Smith, Who would you
know and Joseph is linked to,

457
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,080
you know, back there were
different opinions about who

458
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,480
Joseph would be linked to.
I I've actually had somebody ask

459
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,080
me recently about, you know,
what sources I have on that.

460
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,800
And you know, there's a
statement by Brigham Young

461
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,800
saying that Joseph needed be
would be sealed to someone, but

462
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,760
it would take revelation by the
keys of Elijah to do that

463
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,000
linking.
There's other statement that I

464
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,160
kind of like by Daniel Tyler,
which and there's some other

465
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,440
statements go along the same
lines where he says that Joseph

466
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:02,040
would be linked to Christ and
then Christ to God the father.

467
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,440
And that's how we in this last
dispensation are, you know,

468
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,600
linked back to Adam is, is kind
of, you know, and I really

469
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,800
respect that view.
And my personal opinion that

470
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,320
somebody who was a missionary
investigating, you know, the

471
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,480
fullness of the gospel and
fundamentalism, he's he, he kind

472
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,560
of made this, he, he shared this
idea and I've always liked it

473
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:31,760
since he said, so right before
Joseph has the keys of Moses,

474
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,920
Elias and Elijah restored to him
in the Kirtland Temple in 1836,

475
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,120
you know, and those keys are the
keys pertaining to the temple

476
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,560
and the temple blessings, right?
So right before that Christ

477
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,480
appears and Christ accepts the
temple and you know, he appears

478
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,000
to Joseph and Oliver.
And so this missionary

479
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,360
suggested, he says, do you think
it's possible that maybe Christ

480
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,640
was there in the temple to seal
Joseph to himself at that time?

481
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,960
And I said, I can't prove it one
way or the other, but I really

482
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,440
like that idea.
And that makes, that would make

483
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,920
a ton of sense to me that Joseph
would be linked, you know,

484
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,120
before he would start linking
other people to himself as kind

485
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,760
of, you know, And so that's not,
you know, something that's

486
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,080
binding on anyone to have to
think that idea.

487
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,560
But that idea stood out to me
and I've, I've resonated with it

488
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,120
ever since.
And so this is the quote by

489
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,240
Daniel Tyler that I reference.
This is in the Juvenile

490
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,640
Instructor, which was the
magazine for the youth of the

491
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,440
church.
And so it's really great to get

492
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,240
if you're ever interested in
what to know, what you know,

493
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,440
George Buchanan and other church
leaders during the 1880s wanted

494
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,400
to teach the youth of the
church, you know, go, go read

495
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,200
the juvenile instructor.
So this is in a series of

496
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,400
articles explaining the temples
by Daniel Tyler.

497
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,320
He he wrote quote, children will
be adopted to their parents if

498
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,800
their parents are worthy, if not
to others unless born in the

499
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,760
sealing covenant, the parents to
other faithful men and so on to

500
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,160
Joseph and lastly all the worthy
to Jesus, thus making one great

501
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,800
family of the Saints in all ages
and dispensations.

502
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,360
And so I often people will quote
kind of the antagonistic sources

503
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,560
that say that would, you know,
explain that doctrine and

504
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,400
explain that it's being linked
to your parents if they're

505
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,480
faithful or to other faithful
men if your parents weren't

506
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,480
faithful, and then back to
Joseph.

507
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,480
And I just like that that's in a
official, you know, magazine for

508
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,080
the youth of the church.
Teaching.

509
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,280
Yeah.
And, well, we need more gospel

510
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,920
teaching like that to the youth,
don't we?

511
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,520
Oh, absolutely.
If somebody wanted to do I,

512
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,880
I've, I've heard that they're
descendants of George Buchan

513
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,600
that have tried to do like a
continuation of the juvenile

514
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,560
instructor.
But it'd be nice to have like a

515
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,040
fundamentalist, you know, trying
to keep the fullness of the

516
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,560
gospel to the youth you.
Know.

517
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,000
Come on, Jacob, you're not that
busy.

518
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,440
You can pick that up.
Oh, oh, if only a day.

519
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,160
I have a million other.
I know, I know, Jacob.

520
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,240
That would be a hard time.
But but it is, you know, a great

521
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,880
idea, you know, that would be.
And so here's a quote by Heber C

522
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,400
Kimball kind of teaching
adoption in in Winter Quarters.

523
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:16,040
And this quote is in the Journal
of Joseph Hovey on March 24th,

524
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,320
1847.
And so he's talking to his

525
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,360
adopted family who are all
willing to him.

526
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,920
He said I'm your father or
counselor or teacher.

527
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,080
Some say it's clipping a man's
privilege to be sealed to the

528
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,080
12.
It does not, for it does not

529
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,840
take any privilege privileges
away from him, but rather gives

530
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,240
him more.
It would not do a man any good

531
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,000
to be sealed to another, no
matter if he was ever so good

532
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,480
and great, unless a man that was
sealed obeyed the commandments

533
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,760
and tried to be a good and wise,
and proved to all about them

534
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,280
that they were noble souls.
And so you know, that being

535
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,440
honest and true, that being
virtuous.

536
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,440
Yeah.
So he's the one of the big

537
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,360
emphasis when adoption became
taught and the ceilings were

538
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,720
being taught was some people are
getting a mistaken idea that

539
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,720
it's who you're sealed to that
makes that that makes you great.

540
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,120
Like, you know, oh, if you're
sealed to the, the, you know,

541
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,600
and even with women, the idea
was, oh, if you're just sealed

542
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,800
to a righteous man that, that
you know, or, or a leader that

543
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,080
that guarantees your exaltation.
That's and that they've they've

544
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,640
they've they pushed back heavily
against that idea where they're

545
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,040
saying, Nope, it's not going to
change anything for you unless

546
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,360
you are living worthy, you know,
for those blessings.

547
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,960
And so that that sort of thought
there, and I've read those those

548
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,680
accounts before and the push
back.

549
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,880
And to me, it always struck me
as kind of like Mormons flirting

550
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,160
with indulgences, right?
Like just be sealed to the right

551
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,480
guy and and you can go do what
you need to do and you're going

552
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,360
to be OK, right?
And nothing can be farther from

553
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,640
the truth.
You're still judged based on

554
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,640
what you do.
Yep, Yep, absolutely.

555
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,720
And so he continues.
He says, now I will show you a

556
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,600
figure or example.
You know, you can graft a great

557
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,840
many kinds of fruit to one tree
and not after the fruit of that

558
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,520
tree.
For in the limb you graft A

559
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,240
greening apple, you will have a
greening apple in the limb you

560
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,680
put a Baldwin graft and you will
have a Baldwin apple.

561
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,440
Therefore, you see a number of
fruits can be raised from one

562
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,120
tree.
Your lineage is the same and

563
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,960
does not curtail your father's
or yourself.

564
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,200
You will see some small branches
and some larger ones grow on to

565
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,480
that.
And so he's, he's basically

566
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,160
saying your fruit is going to be
still be your fruit regardless

567
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,760
of where you're connected in
this tree, you know, in this

568
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,320
family tree.
So that would kind of that, if

569
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,320
I'm understanding, correct me,
and again, correct me if I'm

570
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,200
wrong, this was kind of a way of
alleviating that fear of if if

571
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,480
you're sealed into somebody
else's family, you're never

572
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,200
going to see your parents again.
Am I picking that up correctly?

573
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,000
Yeah, yeah.
And, and we'll get into probably

574
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,680
the original understanding of
work for the dead later on in

575
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,000
this discussion, which is going
to be, I think, a big, you know,

576
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,600
piece of the puzzle to
understanding what would, you

577
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,840
know, how this all fits
together.

578
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:07,080
But so, so continuing, he says
this is the principle of oneness

579
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,760
that those people will have to
go into in order to help build

580
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,120
one another up.
If you help me, surely I can

581
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,440
help you.
Therefore, we must work for one

582
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,120
another's interests.
And so with adoption, one of the

583
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,800
problems that kind of came up
was this jealousy or this idea

584
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,320
of so.
So there's the term Kingdom

585
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,719
building that was used in in the
early days where they talked

586
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,800
about the Kingdom building
doctrine, where men who had

587
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,719
authority of the fullness of the
priesthood could, you know, have

588
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,800
a Kingdom sealed unto themselves
by virtue of the sealing power

589
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,960
they possess.
And you know, that could be a

590
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:48,199
good thing in one context, but
it can be totally misused in a

591
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,639
different context.
You know, I think you and I have

592
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,960
talked, you know, in other, you
know, not in public discussions,

593
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:59,960
but just privately about, you
know, issues where people almost

594
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:02,960
take this doctrine of having
people sealed to you.

595
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,040
It's like a multi level
marketing where they're trying

596
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:11,120
to aggrandize themselves by
having other people linked to

597
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,000
them.
And that was, and that's

598
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,280
absolutely an incorrect
understanding of this doctrine.

599
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,680
It was never about self
aggrandizement.

600
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:23,880
You know, is what what?
And this is something that they

601
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,560
stressed over and over again.
This, this it doesn't, you know,

602
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,240
it's not so much about, you
know, your how many people are

603
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:34,600
linked to you, but it's about
how righteous you are being.

604
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,600
And the the Kingdom building
doctrine.

605
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,440
I think the correct way of
looking at it, how it comes

606
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:45,160
from, you know, Brigham Young
said you got to love the truth

607
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,600
because it is the truth and
righteousness because it is

608
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,360
right, not because it gives you
great power and authority and

609
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,280
gives you how you know all this
power and influence over other

610
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,840
people.
You need to love it because you

611
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,760
know, just because it's, you
know, because of the virtue in

612
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,600
and of itself, not because of
what it does for you.

613
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:09,160
And he says the only people who
are truly worthy to have others

614
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,600
sealed to them are those who
lose themselves in, you know, in

615
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,840
seeking after righteousness
because of its being righteous,

616
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,720
not because of what?
So what you know of what it

617
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,960
might do to empower them, if
that makes sense.

618
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,920
And so makes total sense.
And so the way I see exaltation

619
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:33,160
is exaltation is not about self
aggrandizement, but it's the the

620
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,480
way the early brethren taught
exaltation was you're exalted by

621
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,120
having a family, but it's a
byproduct of living according to

622
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,560
celestial principles.
Like they would stress that it's

623
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,640
not the number of wives that you
have sealed to you.

624
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,160
It's, you know, are you being
righteous?

625
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,800
Are you living the right way
and, and creating a celestial

626
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,920
family in the way that you were
living with your wives and your

627
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,800
children?
And if you aren't, you know, it

628
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,240
doesn't matter how many people
you know, how much are sealed to

629
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:05,760
you, because you're not going to
be able to, you know, retain

630
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,280
them.
You're not if you're not going

631
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:13,800
to live in a way to, you know,
striving to, you know, live

632
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,720
according to the celestial law
and to purify your character and

633
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:19,880
sanctify yourself to be worthy
to become a God, then it doesn't

634
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,280
matter how many how many people
are are sealed to you, you know.

635
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,760
And so I think exaltation should
be viewed as a, you know,

636
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:31,000
byproduct, you know, rather than
the the something that you're

637
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,640
seeking after just to, you know,
aggrandize yourself.

638
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,760
You know, I think yeah, I don't
know if you have something you

639
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,800
want to.
Say, yeah, yeah, I I think so.

640
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:47,240
They're back to our private
conversations on that as as I've

641
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,640
looked at this doctrine a couple
different times, there seems to

642
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,200
be two schools of thought,
right?

643
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:58,480
Those who are maybe looking for
self aggrandizement, they'll

644
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,640
look at at, at having people,
other other families sealed to

645
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:09,360
them as a mark of righteousness,
Self aggrandizement.

646
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,040
Look at where I can get to sort
of a thing.

647
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,120
Then there's another school of
thought that I like a lot

648
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:20,120
better, which is very consistent
with the rest of priesthood,

649
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,720
right?
Every time we ascend as men in a

650
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:27,760
priesthood office, there is a
greater responsibility to serve,

651
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,160
right?
And likewise, I see this being a

652
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,680
continuation of that.
And so those who I think that

653
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,880
were really wise about it
weren't necessarily centered on

654
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,680
the self aggrandizement portion,
but we're more centered on how

655
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,720
can I serve these people better
to help them get where they want

656
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:49,280
to be, right?
What's my role as a servant to

657
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,680
this person and his family to
get them where they want to be?

658
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,560
I think if you approach it that
way, you're, you're, you're

659
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,760
starting out from a better place
and, and certainly outcomes are

660
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,480
never guaranteed, but you at
least start off the on the right

661
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,920
foot.
And this idea of self

662
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,080
aggrandizement, you know, Joseph
had an interesting thing to say

663
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,880
about this.
He said the idea of self

664
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,440
aggrandizement, and I'm
paraphrasing here, isn't

665
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,600
altogether bad as long as you're
seeking to bring everybody with

666
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,720
you, right.
And I think, I think what we see

667
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:25,080
in the law of adoption is that
effort of bringing people with

668
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,040
you, right, get lost in the work
and then bring others along that

669
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:30,680
want to be lost in the work as
well.

670
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,440
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that, you know, and

671
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,400
Brigham Young kind of said in
Winter Quarters, he said that he

672
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,480
was boarding like 40 families,
you know, he was helping

673
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,360
support, you know, he says I'm,
I'm not even really well off at

674
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,160
this point and I'm helping to
support other people.

675
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,360
I hope that this will eventually
be other people also helping to

676
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,440
support me and so that I can
eventually, you know, live in

677
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,200
the House of the Lord and
administer blessings to my

678
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,360
brethren.
You know, kind of was what he

679
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:00,440
was envisioning.
You know, he's it was.

680
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,640
It was this there's this
responsibility to it.

681
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,520
It's not about glorifying
yourself, but it's about the

682
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,560
responsibility of of helping
others and being, you know that

683
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,200
that servant leader as as Christ
taught, you know, you need to be

684
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,800
concerned about their
well-being.

685
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,240
And the other thing that they
kind of talked about and they

686
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:24,240
really kind of stressed about
adoption in in winter quarters

687
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,840
was you should ever pressure
anyone to be adopted into

688
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:31,440
someone, it needs to come from a
natural affinity.

689
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,800
And Brigham would say, I've
never asked someone to be

690
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,280
adopted to me.
He says people who've been

691
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,720
adopted to me have done so
because they've asked to be, you

692
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:44,520
know, they are the ones who are
putting forth that initiative

693
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,880
and desiring.
And we've kind of talked about,

694
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,280
you know, how in, in the church,
there's a lot of people who have

695
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,360
really great spiritual mentors
in the LDS Church, you know,

696
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,440
who, who, when they're starting
to become, you know, or, or

697
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,880
converts especially, but even
people who've raised, who are

698
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,960
raising the gospel, they'll have
a spiritual mentor who, you

699
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,720
know, sometimes a older couple
or who are just way wiser.

700
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,120
And, and just that this have
this affinity for helping, you

701
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,960
know, other people, you know,
trying to under better

702
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,680
understand and better apply the
gospel to their lives.

703
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,400
And they, you know, feel a
really strong, deep connection

704
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,000
to the people who are teaching
them, you know, further on the

705
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,760
on the gospel path.
And it's situations like that

706
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,080
that would make the most, you
know, if the church still had

707
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,200
adoption today.
It's those kinds of situations

708
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,720
where you have that natural
inclination, that connection and

709
00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:45,840
that natural, you know, they're,
they're like a father to you in

710
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,400
the gospel.
You know, those are the

711
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:52,040
situations that make the most
sense for it, rather than, you

712
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,560
know, somebody trying to like
electioneer was the term that

713
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,800
was used in inter quarters,
people who were electioneering

714
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,200
to try to build up a Kingdom
unto themselves.

715
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,160
And Brigham said it's one thing
Brigham said was that it was so

716
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:10,560
foolish because when we get back
to the celestial Kingdom, you

717
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,120
know, he said, I, I want to pull
up this quote.

718
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:19,080
So I, I don't, I don't botch it
real quickly.

719
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:27,800
But he mentions over and over
again that that, that the goal

720
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,640
of it was to make the Saints be
one family rather than.

721
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,600
And they said if this was going
to be a divisive thing where it

722
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,640
was going to create competition
and create division among the

723
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,480
people, that that would bring
great sorrow to them.

724
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,040
Like it was not intended to be
utilized that way.

725
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,240
And and so this is the quote and
let's see.

726
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,840
Let me see if I can pull this up
really quickly.

727
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,520
Apologies that I didn't have
this.

728
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,400
Oh, you're good, You're good.
You're good.

729
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:07,360
Take your time.
I can edit.

730
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,040
It's all good.
Yep, Yep.

731
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,640
OK, here we go.
Found it that that didn't take

732
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,880
too long.
So this is on February 10th,

733
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,440
1867.
Journal of Discourses, volume

734
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,640
11, page 326.
He said.

735
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:29,760
Quote.
Will the time ever come that we

736
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,440
will commence and organize this
people as a family?

737
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,400
It will.
Do we know how?

738
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,120
Yes.
What was lacking in these

739
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,960
revelations from Joseph to
enable us to do so was revealed

740
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,000
to me.
Do you think that we will ever

741
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,560
be 1 when we get home to our
Father and God?

742
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,240
Will we not wish to be in the
family?

743
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,160
Will it not be our highest
ambition and desire to be

744
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,200
reckoned as the sons of the
living God, as the daughters of

745
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,080
the Almighty, with a right to
the household and the faith that

746
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,320
belongs to the household heirs
of the Father, His goods, His

747
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,880
wealth, His power, His
Excellency, His knowledge and

748
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:02,080
wisdom?
Ought it not to be our highest

749
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,560
ambition to attain to this?
How many families do you think

750
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,200
there will be that?
So the answer there's one, you

751
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,360
know, there's only one celestial
family.

752
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,520
Like it's not this divisive
thing in the celestial Kingdom.

753
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,320
They are all united and and as
one family.

754
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,720
And so that's what they really
emphasize over and over again

755
00:44:21,720 --> 00:44:26,200
was that this was about the
Saints, you know, becoming one

756
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,280
family.
And that, I think is what really

757
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,320
kind of helped them on the trek.
W when you had so much poverty,

758
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,840
you had so much hardship, as you
know that you also had Saints

759
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,440
who, you know, you had the
widows, you had the women who

760
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,080
had their husbands leave for the
Mormon Battalion who needed to

761
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,240
be taken care of.
And so their their goal was to

762
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:51,160
use this as a mechanism, not
just to provide eternal

763
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:54,800
salvation and exaltation.
You know, because that's one of

764
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,920
the things that's commonly
taught, you know, that that we

765
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,520
were talking about is that this
was something that pertains to

766
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,760
the celestial, you know,
celestial blessings, you know,

767
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,320
the order of the celestial
Kingdom.

768
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,560
But it was also about, you know,
kind of temporally uniting the

769
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,240
Saints.
I think when we look at these

770
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:13,960
principles of the full of the
Gospel, we look at like

771
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:18,000
consecration, plural marriage,
and even adoption.

772
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:22,640
I think the goal of it is to try
to unite the people rather than

773
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:24,400
divide them.
I mean, like with plural

774
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,720
marriage, the idea is that every
woman, righteous woman, deserves

775
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:30,080
to have a righteous husband,
right?

776
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,920
She should not have to settle
for an unrighteous spouse or to

777
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,600
be single in the celestial
Kingdom.

778
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,360
She should.
She has the right.

779
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,880
And in a similar way, with the
law of adoption, you even even

780
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:47,520
if your parents were not good
parents, you have a right to

781
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,680
have good parents in the
celestial Kingdom.

782
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:53,880
You have a right to have that
family, those family

783
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,200
relationships in the gospel.
And so when I look at, you know,

784
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:03,840
the words of Jesus in the New
Testament where he said, you

785
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,080
know, he looked around on them
and sat about him and said,

786
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:09,480
behold my mother and my
brethren, for whosoever shall do

787
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:12,120
the will of God the same as my
brother and my sister and my

788
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,640
mother.
I think that Jesus was really

789
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:19,200
trying to emphasize that we are
gaining a much bigger family in

790
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,880
the fullness of the gospel.
And that might sound weird to

791
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,400
some, but when you take the
gospel as serious as you know,

792
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,800
that there's the word fanatic
that's kind of used as kind of a

793
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,080
derogatory word.
You know, Joseph Musser, I

794
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,480
believe in one of his writings,
said that he's been fanatically

795
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,920
religious in his quest in zeal
for perpetuating the fullness of

796
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,600
the gospel.
But I think that that word isn't

797
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,240
necessarily a bad thing if it
just means that you are being

798
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,000
super committed to, you know, it
means that you believe in

799
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,520
something enough to put it into
practice that you were willing

800
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,880
to, you know, have a strong zeal
for the fullness of the gospel.

801
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:02,280
It might make you look weird
just to to other people.

802
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,960
But I think that when we take
the gospel, you know, there are

803
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,480
no part time gods in eternity.
You know, they're, you know,

804
00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:13,520
you're not going to become a God
by going to church once a week

805
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,320
and maybe thinking about God for
a couple of hours on Sunday.

806
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,320
It's about how you live your
life and how you know you

807
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,960
transform your life through the
knowledge and the ordinances of

808
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,440
the gospel to be more of a
celestial person is what's

809
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,640
really going to, you know, help
you attain to godhood.

810
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:37,560
And so in a similar and so I
don't view, you know, I'm not

811
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,320
embarrassed at all to for people
who who want to think that I'm a

812
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,920
weirdo for caring so much about
what, you know, the prophets and

813
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,800
the scriptures and the
revelations teach so.

814
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:53,640
Absolutely.
And and what you said about just

815
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,120
going on Sundays isn't enough.
That was one of the things that

816
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:58,680
really appealed to me to
Mormonism, right?

817
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,800
I, I, I didn't see where showing
up to church and, and look, I'm

818
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,080
not trying to knock anybody or
their religion, but I wasn't a

819
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,240
fan of Sunday religion, right?
I want to know more about what

820
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:14,000
you're doing the other six days
of the week.

821
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:18,040
It's really easy to be a good
guy for three hours at your

822
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,960
local LDS ward, right?
Or couple hours as a

823
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,400
fundamentalist.
But what are you doing with the

824
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:24,440
rest of your time?
Right?

825
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,560
Where?
Where's the other six days

826
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,240
devoted to?
And so, yeah, I, I like what you

827
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:33,720
said there.
There's no part time gods in the

828
00:48:33,720 --> 00:48:37,080
Celestial Kingdom.
Yeah.

829
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:43,080
And so there's a quote I really
like by Benjamin F Johnson about

830
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:48,240
what Joseph Smith taught him
about the ceiling principles.

831
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:54,880
That is from his it.
It's from his letter to George F

832
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,240
Gibbs in 19 O 3.
So it's a bit late, but he's

833
00:48:57,240 --> 00:49:03,840
recalling a lot of great, a lot
of great history in in this

834
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,600
letter.
He, he said, quote, the first

835
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,520
commandment was to multiply.
And the prophet taught us that

836
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,280
dominion and power in the great
future would be commensurate

837
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,360
with the number of wives,
children and friends that we

838
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,400
inherit here.
And that our mission to this

839
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:24,040
earth was to organize a nuclei
of heaven to take with us to the

840
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,000
increase of which there would be
no end.

841
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:31,520
And so the part I want to
emphasize is the making a nuclei

842
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,720
of heaven here on earth to take
with you into the next life is

843
00:49:35,720 --> 00:49:38,680
the real purpose of the sealing
principles.

844
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:43,400
And so one of the things that
they really emphasized over and

845
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:48,960
over again was that we are
trying to establish heaven on

846
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:53,920
earth is what what the what
these principles were about.

847
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,360
You know, Brigham Young said,
quote, the only heaven for you

848
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:58,760
is that what you make
yourselves?

849
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,080
My heaven is here.
I carry it with me.

850
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,000
When do I expect?
And it's perfection?

851
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,040
When I come up in the
resurrection, then I shall have

852
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:06,000
it.
And not till then.

853
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:09,360
But they still emphasize, you
know, that the that it's about

854
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,600
making heaven for yourselves.
And they kind of said that if a

855
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,080
person is not really qualified
for the celestial Kingdom, it

856
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,840
would be actually worse.
There's a statement by Brigham

857
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,920
saying it would be worse than
hell to go into the presence of

858
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,800
the Father and Son without being
sanctified and prepared for that

859
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,920
celestial glory.
And so the real emphasis with,

860
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,320
you know, one of the real
emphasis with the idea of

861
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:38,800
building Zion is that we are
striving to create heaven on

862
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,720
earth in our relationships and
how we live with other people.

863
00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:46,120
And I think that the interview
you did with Isaac Musser was

864
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:50,480
just amazing about the ceiling
covenant and applying the

865
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,760
different laws and the endowment
in our family relations to

866
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,160
create, you know, celestial
family union in our families.

867
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,760
Absolutely so.
Shout out Isaac Muster, man,

868
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,720
I've, I've told everybody.
You got a young you got, you got

869
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:08,840
a young kid who's about to get
married.

870
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,520
The best thing you can do is
just edit my voice out of that

871
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:15,080
thing and just let Isaac talk to
him for for, you know, a couple

872
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:18,160
hours because man, there was
some serious wisdom imparted in

873
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:24,200
in in that episode from Isaac.
Yeah, yeah, I, I think that, you

874
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:28,480
know, if anyone hasn't listened
to that, you know, I think it's

875
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,400
a, a great one to listen to.
And so the real idea with trying

876
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,800
to establish heaven on earth is
that, you know, and obviously

877
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,960
we're not going to be perfect at
it, but it's about where we are

878
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,160
working towards.
And so with the sealing

879
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:45,600
principles, the real
understanding or original

880
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,280
doctrine of the sealing
principles was that it's not

881
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:54,000
about in the LDS church today,
you hear a lot of, it's always

882
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,600
going to be worked out in the
next life.

883
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:01,160
You know, if there's a problem
with like, you know, you know,

884
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:03,720
if there's family dynamics that
are bad and you're like, I don't

885
00:52:03,720 --> 00:52:07,240
really feel like the ceiling
lineage or something,

886
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:09,600
something's off here, you know,
and they'll just say, oh, don't

887
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:10,920
worry about it.
It'll all be worked out in the

888
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,800
next life.
But what the early brethren

889
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,800
understood about the sealing
principles was we need to start

890
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,720
to try to work these things out
in this life and figure out, you

891
00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:24,080
know, our relationships, you
know, developing celestial

892
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:29,080
relationships here in this life
in order to qualify or prepare

893
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,120
for those relationships in, in
the, in a higher state of

894
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,800
perfection.
You know, in the next probation,

895
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,720
you know, if it's the, you know,
in the Millennium, you know,

896
00:52:38,720 --> 00:52:41,600
we're going to come up.
And if we aren't really prepared

897
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,560
for that, you know, we're not
going to, you know, you know,

898
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,440
the wicked, the people who don't
qualify aren't going to be part

899
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:52,640
of that school of, you know,
that that the Millennium will

900
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:54,480
offer.
So absolutely.

901
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,560
To and to go back to what's
what, what you quoted there from

902
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:02,560
Brigham about, you know,
creating the nuclei to take with

903
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,400
us, so to speak, or I guess that
was Benjamin F Johnson, excuse

904
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:11,040
me, quoting Joseph Smith, but
Brigham alludes to, you know,

905
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,720
working, working things out.
So you can have heaven on earth

906
00:53:14,720 --> 00:53:17,800
now, right now.
It won't be a perfected state,

907
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,600
but that was another thing that
really inspired me as I studied

908
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,560
some of the older stuff from
some of the brethren, 'cause I

909
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:27,960
remember happening upon that
quote and the idea that you

910
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:32,720
don't have to wait until you're
dead to enjoy these blessings.

911
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:34,880
I think it's a huge thing,
right?

912
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,480
And it's something that I don't
think Mormons of any strife,

913
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,440
whether that's fundamentalist or
LDS or whatever we don't focus

914
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,040
enough on is that this is the
time to perfect those things,

915
00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:48,720
right?
We, we do the hard work here.

916
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:50,920
We can have a sample of that
here.

917
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:55,160
And when when we get on the
other side, we're all the better

918
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:59,760
for it.
Yep, Yep, absolutely.

919
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,880
I actually just found the
Brigham Young quote that I was

920
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,040
thinking of a few minutes ago
about, you know, those who

921
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,080
aren't righteous going to the
celestial Kingdom and it would

922
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:11,840
be worse than being in hell for
them.

923
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:17,560
So this is Journal of Discourses
volume 3, page 221, for those

924
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,440
one wanted to look up.
So he said, some might suppose

925
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,440
that would be a great blessing
to be taken and carried directly

926
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,680
into heaven and they're set
down.

927
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,600
But in reality that would be no
blessing to such persons.

928
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,640
They cannot reap a full reward,
could not enjoy the glory of the

929
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:34,280
Kingdom, and could not
comprehend and abide the light

930
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,520
thereof.
But it would be to them a hell

931
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:40,000
intolerable, I suppose, would
consume them much quicker than

932
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,480
wood Hellfire.
It would be no blessing to you

933
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,440
to be carried into the social
Kingdom and obliged to stay

934
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,720
there and unless you were
prepared to dwell therein.

935
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,240
And so when we talk about, you
know, adoption, that's kind of a

936
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:55,640
piece of the puzzle.
And that in plural marriage is

937
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,920
another piece of the puzzle
where it's enabling women to all

938
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,680
be linked to a righteous husband
in this family line.

939
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,480
And one of the, you know, I
guess another doctrine that was

940
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,880
kind of associated with this was
that, you know, you grow through

941
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,600
having a larger family that
actually prepares you more fully

942
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:19,840
to God for godhood by having
that greater responsibility and

943
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:24,680
having to have that greater care
that comes with having a larger

944
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,840
family Kingdom.
There's a Brigham Young quote

945
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:33,120
that I love where he kind of
says if I was not disposed in my

946
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,920
poverty to enlarge my family and
build up the Kingdom, I would

947
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,440
not be acquainted with the
difficulties thereof and I would

948
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,480
not be so.
So he would not be prepared more

949
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:48,640
that, you know, if I if he drunk
from having those those trials

950
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:51,360
and those circumstances, you
know, and so, you know, it's

951
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:53,920
really about really trying to
all these principles.

952
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,800
When you put all the temple
principles together, it's about

953
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,720
refining our character and they
need to have, you know, actual,

954
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,880
you know, they they need to have
effects in our lives.

955
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:07,720
You know, that's that's what
we're really working for.

956
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:10,840
It's not so much, you know, when
you talked with Justin about

957
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:14,120
this, it's not so much the
outward ordinance in and of

958
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,720
itself, but it's how does this
change us inward?

959
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:21,160
And are we really being changed
through these experiences and

960
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,440
living these principles?
And so I really think that, you

961
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,440
know, when we, when we're
talking about, you know,

962
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,080
adoption, I think it's about the
Saints being one giant family

963
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,480
tree.
And it's about enlarging our

964
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,880
capacity to love, love others
and to serve others is what

965
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,480
ultimately this is leading to.
So.

966
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:49,800
Absolutely, absolutely.
You know, I, I look back at my

967
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,520
time when I joined the LDS
church and there was a gentleman

968
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:56,000
there who was extremely
influential on me, right, Was

969
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,880
there for all of the, the things
that I did in the LDS church.

970
00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:04,080
And you'd spoke about those
things growing naturally.

971
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,800
Those things absolutely grow
naturally.

972
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:11,120
And if correct me if I'm wrong
here, it was the electioneering

973
00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:16,080
that essentially kind of
prompted I believe it was

974
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,920
Woodruff to to kind of rescind
that practice, right?

975
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,640
So actually, I kind of think
that you go back to Brother

976
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:30,240
Brigham in the in you know,
18471848, that's kind of where

977
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,800
you have peak adoption being a
social institution among the

978
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:38,520
Saints, where that is one of the
core principles in winter

979
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,600
quarters.
They're having family meetings

980
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,320
regularly.
They're doing sacrament as

981
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,960
families, they said.
And 11 researcher said that John

982
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,000
Taylor's adopted family were
like, even when he was away on a

983
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,880
mission to England, they were
still meeting together in a

984
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,120
family capacity and, and working
together.

985
00:57:55,120 --> 00:58:00,120
And, you know, and so there was
a lot of good that happened on

986
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:04,280
the trek West with adoption.
I and I can't emphasize that

987
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,800
enough that I think that it was
a very important thing.

988
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:12,000
But Brigham also started to see
some of the problems that people

989
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:20,120
could have with kind of misusing
or misunderstanding this

990
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,400
principle.
And so he this was in a family

991
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,560
meeting on adoption where he
said this on February 16th,

992
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:29,320
1847.
He said were I to say to the

993
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,920
elders, you now have the liberty
to build up your kingdoms, 1/2

994
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:37,040
of them would lie, swear, steal
and fight like the very devil to

995
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:38,760
get men and women sealed to
them.

996
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,600
They would even try to pass by
me and go to Joseph thinking to

997
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,600
get between him and the 12.
And he says, and if such

998
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:49,280
jealousies and infightings don't
stop, then we will you know, I

999
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,360
will just halt all of this.
I will say everyone, you know,

1000
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,080
all the, you know, everyone just
be adopted to me and I'll be

1001
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,840
adopted to my father and him and
this whole church will be sealed

1002
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:00,600
to Joseph.
It's kind of so he's basically

1003
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:04,720
saying that if this if the
infighting and jealousies and

1004
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,800
abuses of it don't stop, that he
would, you know, potentially

1005
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,560
tell them that we're not going
to be practice, you know,

1006
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,720
practicing it.
So even going back to Brigham,

1007
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,760
there was concerns about it
being abused.

1008
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,480
And so in winter Quarters, you
had a lot of good from it.

1009
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,800
They when I was talking about
the temporal blessings and what

1010
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:28,600
they, they organized family
farms where they adopted

1011
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,800
families, kind of had
cooperatives where they work

1012
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,600
together and, you know,
industrially and, you know, help

1013
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,120
provide for the temporal needs
of the Saints, you know, and,

1014
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,720
and providing enough food for
them as they were in winter

1015
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,760
Quarters.
And so I think it was a very,

1016
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:46,840
you know, temporally beneficial
thing.

1017
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:51,280
But there were some problems
like Brigham had John D Lee as

1018
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:56,200
an adopted son who was kind of
in charge of, he was the second

1019
00:59:56,200 --> 01:00:01,240
adopted son to Brigham Brigham's
first adopted son, AP Rockwood.

1020
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,040
Brigham kind of said he's going
to be the one kind of acting for

1021
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:05,600
me while I'm gone.
You know it.

1022
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:10,400
While he's leading pioneer
companies to Utah while they're

1023
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,720
still got most of the adopted
family in winter quarters.

1024
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:18,280
And John D but John D Lee was
kind of the second in, in charge

1025
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:19,920
where he was the second adopted
son.

1026
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:25,000
And so he was given a major role
in Brigham's adopted family's

1027
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:28,360
farm.
And there were concerns that he

1028
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:32,720
was not being equitable or being
fair in the way that he was

1029
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:34,400
temporarily dealing with other
people.

1030
01:00:34,400 --> 01:00:37,880
And I've, I, I, I, I haven't
really looked at the nitty

1031
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,320
gritty details of, of everything
that was going on, but I just

1032
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:45,680
know that there were a lot of
adopted sons of John D Lee and

1033
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,520
others who kind of felt that
people weren't being treated

1034
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:53,920
fairly in the division of land
that was going on for, you know,

1035
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,200
these farming pursuits that were
going on.

1036
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:00,360
And, and George Lobb kind of
felt like, like that Lee had

1037
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:05,080
kind of he, he was sealed to, to
John D Lee in the Nauvoo Temple

1038
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,600
and was, you know, entering into
that with, you know, full faith.

1039
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,760
And he felt that, you know, Lee
was kind of using him like

1040
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,240
working, you know, having him
work for him a ton and not

1041
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:17,520
really giving him his fair
share, if that makes sense.

1042
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:22,760
And, and, and so that there were
concerns with Lee in other ways

1043
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,400
where there was concerns about
the way he was treating some of

1044
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,520
his wives and the the way he
kind of talked about his family.

1045
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:33,600
And it kind of all culminated
when Brigham and the apostles

1046
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:39,000
got back from so.
So they go to, you know, select

1047
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:41,840
a site for the Saints to gather
in Utah and Salt Lake Valley

1048
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:48,080
and, you know, July of 1847.
And while there, Heber C Kimball

1049
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:49,920
kind of made a comment.
He said, you know, if it's

1050
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,240
advised for us to continue to
operate in a family capacity, we

1051
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:55,240
should do that.
But if we're advised to work in

1052
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,600
a church capacity, we should be
equally willing to do that.

1053
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:00,960
And that's kind of what he told
his adopted sons when they

1054
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,200
arrived in Utah.
So maybe there was kind of

1055
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,480
already some, you know, you
know, concerns about the

1056
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,680
logistics of how they were going
to continue, continue things.

1057
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:14,160
But anyhow, they get back to
Winter Quarters in December or

1058
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:18,160
November of 1847.
And while there, they kind of

1059
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,360
learned about, you know, some of
the conflict that happened and,

1060
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:25,240
you know, and, and some of these
infighting and abuses and kind

1061
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:29,880
of jealousies and, you know,
that that we're starting to grow

1062
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:32,720
from it.
And basically kind of Brigham

1063
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:35,840
had to kind of put John D Lee in
his place.

1064
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:40,400
And not in a not in a mean
spirited way, but in a humbling

1065
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:43,840
and kind of way where he said,
you know, you, you need to have

1066
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:45,880
your dominion needs to flow to
you naturally.

1067
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,520
Like I would say to anyone who's
sealed to me, my wives, my

1068
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:54,880
adopted children, that if you
don't feel inclined to continue

1069
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,840
in this relationship, I can't
force you to be in this

1070
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:00,120
relationship.
If you want to be free, you

1071
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:03,320
know, you, you are totally, you
have your liberty, you know?

1072
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,680
And so Brigham was emphasizing
what I believe you know, DNC 121

1073
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:11,200
talks about where you're where
your dominion flows to you

1074
01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:16,040
without compulsory means, where,
you know, people associate with

1075
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,840
you because they love you and
they respect you, not because

1076
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,960
they are being forced to be in
that relationship.

1077
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,640
Like what that, that isn't a
celestial relationship.

1078
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,560
If somebody's feeling like
they're coerced or manipulated

1079
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,440
or pressured into a
relationship, you know, to

1080
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:35,760
maintaining a relationship
that's gone sour.

1081
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,640
You know, you, you know,
obviously relationships take

1082
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:42,680
work, but the goal there is you
know what you know, so many of

1083
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:48,440
us emphasize DNC 121 about, you
know, no power or influence

1084
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,400
ought to be maintained by virtue
by of priest of the priesthood.

1085
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:56,080
You know that we need to
maintain it by meekness, you

1086
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:58,480
know, virtue and you know,
teaching.

1087
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,680
Shame on me for not having that
verse as memorized as I should.

1088
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:06,880
But you know, those those verses
in DNC 121 ought to be memorized

1089
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:08,040
by us.
If they don't, and that's

1090
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:11,280
probably something that I would
do well to to memorize.

1091
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:15,960
But so Brigham kind of basically
tells him, John D Lee, that, you

1092
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:18,800
know, you should say to your
family that, you know,

1093
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,400
acknowledge that you've made
mistakes, acknowledge that there

1094
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:25,080
have been screw ups and say
those who want to be free can be

1095
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:29,200
free.
And those who, you know, choose

1096
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,560
to stick with you.
Let's move forward with in good

1097
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:36,920
faith together and not reflect,
you know, not keep, you know,

1098
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,120
sour feelings, you know, like
you can't stick in a

1099
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:43,600
relationship and agree to stick
it, but just keep holding

1100
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:47,080
something against the person
you're in a relationship with.

1101
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:49,880
Like not being willing to, you
know, having an attitude that's

1102
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:51,920
unforgiving, right.
You need to be willing to.

1103
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,840
That's the only way you're,
you're, you know that that's the

1104
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:59,160
fundamental principle of the
gospel of Jesus Christ that, you

1105
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,840
know, we need to forgive our
brother and how much, you know,

1106
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:05,440
70 * 7 as Jesus said, and how
much more.

1107
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,760
So does that apply in a family
capacity, You know, in your, in

1108
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:11,000
your family relationships,
right?

1109
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:14,800
You, you need to be striving to
work those things out.

1110
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:19,000
But so there was issues with
John D Lee that came up.

1111
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:23,080
There were issues with some
other adopted children who kind

1112
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:27,680
of felt like, oh, we have a, we
can do get away with committing

1113
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:31,680
iniquity because we're sealed to
the so and so like, you know,

1114
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:36,320
and, and they had to, they
really did not like that

1115
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:38,160
attitude.
And Hebrew C Kimball kind of

1116
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:41,240
said, I heard it.
I, I recall a story in the Bible

1117
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:45,400
about a man who screened
iniquity in his family and he,

1118
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:48,840
you know, and he, he lost the
blessings that God gave him

1119
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,720
because he was, you know,
willing to cover up the iniquity

1120
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,320
of his sons, you know,
referencing the story of Eli.

1121
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:00,640
And so, and so he says, I won't
screen, you know, I won't screen

1122
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,480
iniquity with my adopted sense.
I can't even do it with my own

1123
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:07,600
biological sense.
Like I have to be righteous and

1124
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,080
encourage righteousness in my
family.

1125
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,720
And he said, and if I were to
take a different course, then I

1126
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:16,760
would go to hell with everyone
that I justified in their

1127
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,120
wickedness, you know.
So, you know, that there were

1128
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:22,800
issues there with some people
thinking that they could get

1129
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:26,920
away with, you know, iniquity
because of who they were sealed

1130
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:28,320
to.
And then there were issues of,

1131
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,320
you know, the like Brigham said,
these jealousies and people

1132
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:35,840
feeling like, oh, I can build up
a a big Kingdom unto myself.

1133
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,480
And one other issue, you know,
one other person that comes up

1134
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:43,120
in Winter Quarters was James
Emmett, who kind of was being

1135
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:47,000
kind of coercive with the people
that were followed and linked

1136
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:49,760
with him.
And when that came out, you

1137
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:52,920
know, Brigham kind of put him in
his place as well and said, you

1138
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:55,680
know, you're, you're not doing
these principles correctly.

1139
01:06:56,040 --> 01:06:59,040
And so there are a lot of
problems with that in Winter

1140
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:01,360
Quarters.
And so even though Brigham

1141
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:04,680
throughout his discourses
touches on adoption throughout

1142
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:09,800
the rest of his life, after
1847, or I believe the last real

1143
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:14,600
adoption sermon he gives was in
March of 1848, he really kind of

1144
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:19,680
puts it more on the back burner.
And I, you know, and I don't

1145
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:23,400
fault him for that.
I think that you got to be I I

1146
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:26,320
think he was being a wise
steward with what, you know,

1147
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:29,840
what doctrines he taught to the
Saints and what knowledge he

1148
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,040
gave to the Saints.
And you know, he kind of at one

1149
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:36,840
point kind of reflected on Adam
God and said, you know, even

1150
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:40,280
though I have been fairly, you
know, he he basically in the

1151
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,160
school of the prophets at one
point said, if I have one regret

1152
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:47,840
it may about doctrine.
He says I don't, he says the

1153
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:51,560
truth of Adam, God, I've never
doubted like that is something

1154
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:56,840
he knew was a a true revelation,
a true a a true knowledge that

1155
01:07:56,840 --> 01:07:59,560
had been revealed to him and had
been revealed to Joseph from

1156
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:01,240
heaven.
He said if I had one regret, it

1157
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:05,080
was being too public about it
before the Gentiles is what he

1158
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:06,960
said.
He said maybe it wouldn't have

1159
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:09,440
been good to create stumbling,
you know, because it could

1160
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,040
create a stumbling block for
people, you know, if people

1161
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:16,880
don't understand it and it's
proper, you know, it it, it's

1162
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:20,640
been used as a tool to ridicule
the restored gospel because the,

1163
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:23,319
the, the they'll throw it out.
You know, Oh, Brigham Young

1164
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:27,080
taught Adam is God and a lot of
mainstream members haven't don't

1165
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:29,000
know how to deal with that,
don't know how to defend it.

1166
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:32,399
Right.
And so, you know, I can

1167
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:36,240
understand Brigham kind of in
retrospect realized, you know,

1168
01:08:36,240 --> 01:08:40,160
having some concern about, you
know, and he still, but he still

1169
01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:43,000
said this was a temple doctrine.
You know, he still made sure

1170
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,800
that Adam, God was incorporated
in the endowment in very

1171
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,319
explicit terms, even though it
was there from the beginning in

1172
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:53,479
implicit terms, you know, that
that was something that belonged

1173
01:08:53,479 --> 01:08:56,479
to the Saints who had attained
to that level of knowledge, but

1174
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:59,120
with adoption in kind of a
similar way.

1175
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:03,080
So, yeah, I, I believe it's
about 1860 that Brigham started

1176
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:07,600
kind of saying maybe we
shouldn't be so public with

1177
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:13,720
Gentiles about Adam God.
In 1862, he actually kind of

1178
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:19,760
mentioned and, and said, you
know, explained that he had been

1179
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:24,120
kind of silent on adoption for
quite a bit for quite a while.

1180
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:30,240
So this was on August 3rd, 1862.
Journal of Discourses, Volume 9,

1181
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:34,640
page 334.
Oh, excuse me, wrong quote.

1182
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:39,600
That's a different quote that
mentions adoption, but so I'm

1183
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:45,200
thinking April 6th, 1862, volume
9, page 269.

1184
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:49,120
So Brigham said quote, I will
here refer to a principle that

1185
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:51,279
has not been named by me for
years.

1186
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,760
With the introduction of the
precip on the earth was also

1187
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:57,240
introduced the ceiling
ordinance, that the chain of the

1188
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:00,440
precip from Adam to the latest
generation might be united in

1189
01:10:00,440 --> 01:10:03,880
one unbroken continuance.
It is the same power and the

1190
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:06,720
same keys that Elijah held.
And what's to exercise in the

1191
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:09,360
last days?
Behold, I will send you Elijah

1192
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:11,560
the prophet, before the coming
of the great and dreadful day of

1193
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:14,040
the Lord, and he shall turn the
hearts of the fathers to the

1194
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:17,120
children, and the hearts of the
children to their fathers, lest

1195
01:10:17,120 --> 01:10:18,960
I come and smite the earth with
a curse.

1196
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:21,640
By this power men will be sealed
to men.

1197
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:25,000
Back to Adam, completing and
making perfect the chain of the

1198
01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:27,720
priesthood from his day to the
winding up scene.

1199
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,960
I've known men that I positively
think would fellowship the

1200
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:33,880
devil, if he would be agree,
would agree to be sealed to

1201
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:36,480
them.
Oh, be sealed to me, brother, I

1202
01:10:36,480 --> 01:10:39,040
care not what you do.
You may lie and steal, or

1203
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:40,880
anything else.
I can put up with all your

1204
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,480
meanness, if only you will be
sealed to me.

1205
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:47,480
Now, this is not so much
weakness as it is selfishness.

1206
01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:50,760
And I, and I would say there in
some cases men might be weak

1207
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:54,600
where they might, you know, not
feel like, you know, calling

1208
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:58,320
people to repentance because of,
you know, feeling kind of timid

1209
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,320
in their character about doing
such things.

1210
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:02,480
But I, I can see what he's
saying here about the

1211
01:11:02,480 --> 01:11:05,840
selfishness where it's like, I
want you sealed to me.

1212
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:09,200
I don't care what you do, you
know, as long as you're kind of

1213
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,280
adding part of my Kingdom kind
of attitude.

1214
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:15,200
And you definitely see that in
Winter Quarters.

1215
01:11:15,480 --> 01:11:17,520
So Brigham continues.
He says about Doc.

1216
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,960
She says, quote, it is a great
and glorious doctrine.

1217
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,440
But the reason I have not
preached in the midst of this

1218
01:11:22,440 --> 01:11:25,960
people is I could not do it
without turning so many of them

1219
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:28,520
to the devil.
Some would go to hell for the

1220
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:30,440
sake of getting the devil sealed
to them.

1221
01:11:30,880 --> 01:11:34,400
I've had visions and revelations
instructing me how to organize

1222
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:37,280
this people so they can live
like the family of heaven.

1223
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:41,080
But I can't do it while so much
selfishness and wickedness reign

1224
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:43,960
in the elders of Israel.
Many would make of the greatest

1225
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:46,520
blessings a curse to them, as
they do now.

1226
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,880
The plurality of wives.
The abuse of that principle will

1227
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:52,880
send thousands to hell.
There are many great and

1228
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:55,400
glorious privileges for the
people which they are not

1229
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:57,960
prepared to receive.
How long it will be before they

1230
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,720
are prepared to enjoy the
blessings God has in store for

1231
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:03,160
them, I know not, has not been
revealed to me.

1232
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:08,040
I know the Lord wants to pour
blessings upon this people, but

1233
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:11,120
were he to do so in their
present ignorance, they would

1234
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:14,720
not know what to do with them.
They can receive only a very

1235
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:18,440
little, and that must be
administered to them with great

1236
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:20,320
care.
So.

1237
01:12:22,040 --> 01:12:25,840
Yeah, that's a quote.
Yeah, that is a big quote,

1238
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:27,800
right.
And and you know, and now we

1239
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:29,840
have to start asking the
question, right?

1240
01:12:30,880 --> 01:12:34,400
Because I do think that that the
seasons have changed a little

1241
01:12:34,400 --> 01:12:38,960
bit here for us as
fundamentalists, Are we going to

1242
01:12:38,960 --> 01:12:40,960
be those people that can handle
it, right?

1243
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:43,920
I think that's a huge question
that needs to be asked.

1244
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:48,160
Certainly.
I just like I'd say for plural

1245
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:53,000
marriage, right, that I don't
think everyone will live it in

1246
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:54,840
this life.
I would hope that everyone gets

1247
01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:57,920
OK with the doctrine, but I
think it might be the same with

1248
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:00,160
this, this kind of ceiling too,
right?

1249
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:04,640
But let's not forget that it
seems like it's pretty important

1250
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:06,880
to have that chain welded back
to Adam, right?

1251
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:09,520
What did the Lord say would
happen to the earth if that

1252
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:13,360
didn't happen?
It's utterly wasted, right?

1253
01:13:14,600 --> 01:13:19,600
And so it's proving to be a, a
major doctrine that deserves

1254
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:24,040
attention and it needs to be
understood correctly.

1255
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:28,360
And, and that's, that's what
I'm, I'm getting out a little

1256
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:33,280
bit out of this conversation
too, is that the Saints weren't

1257
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:39,000
in those days weren't, it wasn't
for lack of zeal that they were

1258
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:42,360
getting into trouble.
It was a lack of understanding

1259
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:47,640
of the principles, right, and
selfishness and those sorts of

1260
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:50,000
things, which again, I think you
can put back on lack of

1261
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:54,760
understanding.
And I think it becomes incumbent

1262
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:58,600
upon us to really make sure that
we're we're understanding those

1263
01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:01,480
things.
Amen.

1264
01:14:01,480 --> 01:14:05,360
And I, I'm for me, it's almost
a, a humbling thing to hear.

1265
01:14:05,440 --> 01:14:10,600
You know, we often put The
Pioneers on a, a pedestal about,

1266
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:14,600
oh, they had everything, you
know, figured out.

1267
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:18,960
You know, back then they, they,
they were, you know, everyone

1268
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:21,040
back then was on track for the
celestial Kingdom.

1269
01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,200
And it's it's us who
backslidden.

1270
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,880
But if if you hear what
Brigham's saying there is there

1271
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:29,200
were a lot of people who were
black backslidden and in his

1272
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:31,280
day.
And so he's saying about the

1273
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:36,600
Saints in his day, he said, you
know, they can receive only a

1274
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:40,840
very little and that must be
administered to them with great

1275
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:44,320
care.
And so that kind of shows you

1276
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:49,800
that Even so even if the people
are, you know, if, if a lot of

1277
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:53,720
the people aren't fully ready
for the celestial principles,

1278
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:57,640
that does not mean that those
can't be taught among those who

1279
01:14:57,640 --> 01:15:00,600
are, you know, and Brigham, you
know, the big thing, you know,

1280
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:03,320
some people kind of take an
attitude of this.

1281
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:07,720
I've I've heard some people take
an apologetic attitude towards

1282
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,920
mainstream LDS church leaders
today where so the people aren't

1283
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,600
ready for it.
It's a mercy for the people to

1284
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:17,840
not have them teaching the
higher principles to them,

1285
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:20,320
right?
It's kind of what I've, I've

1286
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:22,320
heard that apologetic use
before.

1287
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:26,800
And if we, the, the, the church
members would just rise up, then

1288
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:31,280
our leaders would be able to,
to, you know, teach us the, the,

1289
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,480
the, the principles and I, I
bless their hearts, You know, I,

1290
01:15:34,480 --> 01:15:37,280
I don't want to discourage
anyone from rising up and trying

1291
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:41,360
to be, you know, to, to raise
the bar, you know, in, in their,

1292
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:43,920
in their conduct and they're
striving for the gospel.

1293
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:48,360
But Brigham had backslidden
members in his day.

1294
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:51,200
You know, lots of, you know,
that statement, it makes it

1295
01:15:51,200 --> 01:15:55,960
sound like the I, I would be
think it's safe to assume he's

1296
01:15:55,960 --> 01:15:58,400
talking about the majority of
the people not being quite

1297
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:00,440
prepared for the higher
principles.

1298
01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:04,720
But what is he doing?
He is trying to lift them up to

1299
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:07,640
those principles and he wants to
help them.

1300
01:16:07,640 --> 01:16:11,920
And that's what a good leader
would do is not try to be, oh,

1301
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:14,520
I'm going to leave the people in
ignorance because they're not

1302
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,880
worthy of these principles.
He's saying, you know, these

1303
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:22,040
principles are here for those
who qualify for them.

1304
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:26,160
And let's try to get you on the
path to qualify for these higher

1305
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:28,320
principles.
And so that's why I respect

1306
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:32,240
about the early pioneer leaders
is that, you know, even if the

1307
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:36,840
church was starting to regress
in some ways after Joseph's

1308
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:40,240
death, that Brigham and the
other leaders were, you know,

1309
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:44,040
is, is the other faithful
apostles were trying to keep the

1310
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:46,520
people going.
And you kind of see that in the

1311
01:16:46,520 --> 01:16:50,040
1880s with plural marriage.
You know, a lot of recent

1312
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:53,760
discussions about the 1886
revelation is most of the

1313
01:16:53,760 --> 01:16:55,600
members were starting to
backslide.

1314
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:57,200
You know, the pressure was too
great.

1315
01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:01,000
They were not wanting to be
faithful to the principles, you

1316
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:06,960
know, the plural marriage in, in
the face of severe persecution,

1317
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:12,280
prosecution, disenfranchisement.
They were, you know, a lot of

1318
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,000
members were struggling with
being faithful, but the

1319
01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:19,240
righteous leaders were trying to
help them push along.

1320
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:21,760
We're trying to encourage them.
And the Lord is giving

1321
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:25,760
revelations to encourage them to
be faithful no matter what they

1322
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:29,520
are facing, you know, And so
that's what a good leader does

1323
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:34,080
is they try to stretch the
people and make them better, not

1324
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:41,760
trying to let them get comfy or,
you know, try make their make

1325
01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:44,840
their garments be a little bit
more comfortable for the styles

1326
01:17:44,840 --> 01:17:47,400
of the world.
You know, kind of to use an

1327
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:52,120
analogy there of, you know,
recent, another kind of recent

1328
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:56,200
news story.
And so, so, so I would say that

1329
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:59,840
Brigham never, you know, if I
look through his discourses,

1330
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:03,680
I've tried to have, you know,
compile a lot of material on

1331
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:06,520
adoption because this is the,
the sealing doctrines.

1332
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:11,240
Brigham does make references to
it in passing through a lot of

1333
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:13,200
discourses.
And when people ask about it,

1334
01:18:13,400 --> 01:18:14,920
he's willing to tell them about
it.

1335
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:20,160
And so one good quote about this
is on February 17th, 1857, in a

1336
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:23,840
letter to a, a brother of the
church kind of asking about

1337
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:26,320
adoption, Brigham wrote this, he
said quote.

1338
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:29,800
So this is it 1857.
So, you know, probably five

1339
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:32,880
years before that quote we just
read, he said the doctrine of

1340
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:36,320
adoption, the patriarchal order
has not been taught of late, but

1341
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:38,880
will be attended to in its
season as soon as we have

1342
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:40,520
another temple built to the Most
High.

1343
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:43,760
You belong to the Kingdom of
God, but may make your own

1344
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:45,440
choice to whom you will be
adopted.

1345
01:18:45,440 --> 01:18:47,720
And when you have made this
choice, you may report it.

1346
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:50,520
That may be put on record.
And in the event of death,

1347
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,240
because of this record, the
adoption would be attended to

1348
01:18:53,240 --> 01:18:55,760
for the dead in the proper time
and place.

1349
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:58,760
This is for the purpose of
having an unbroken chain of

1350
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:03,040
priesthood from the present time
back through Joseph to the

1351
01:19:03,040 --> 01:19:07,600
apostles, to the Jews, to Jesus,
even back to Adam.

1352
01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:12,280
So he kind of references it
isn't shy of explaining it to

1353
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:14,760
him.
There's another sermon he gave

1354
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:18,160
kind of, you know, there's a
rare sermon in the mid 1850s on

1355
01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:22,480
January 13th, 1856, where he
kind of preached on the

1356
01:19:22,480 --> 01:19:26,640
importance of this.
And this kind of debunks some,

1357
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:28,920
you know, there's certain
apologetic arguments about

1358
01:19:28,920 --> 01:19:32,000
doctrine where it's like, oh, it
was just like parent child

1359
01:19:32,000 --> 01:19:34,040
sealing.
You know, it's kind of they,

1360
01:19:34,040 --> 01:19:36,640
they try to minimize it and say,
oh, it's just parent child

1361
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:38,280
sealing.
They're just trying to figure it

1362
01:19:38,280 --> 01:19:41,920
out.
You know, you know, read, read

1363
01:19:41,920 --> 01:19:43,680
this.
You know, I'll read this quote

1364
01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:46,640
and then you tell me if this
sounds like it's just a simple

1365
01:19:47,480 --> 01:19:50,120
parent child sealing.
He said.

1366
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:55,360
Let's see.
This is in the journal.

1367
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:58,080
Discourses.
This is in complete discourses

1368
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:02,120
of Brigham Young.
So he said, we will administer

1369
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:04,640
in the temple this we have now
begun, and that is one point

1370
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:09,120
gained and we will let's see, he
said the priesthood will turn

1371
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:11,400
the hearts of the children to
the ancient fathers and the

1372
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:14,200
children to the fathers now, and
those which are to come will be

1373
01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:17,560
made perfect.
This chain must be, must not be

1374
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:20,080
broken, for mankind can't be
saved any other way.

1375
01:20:20,480 --> 01:20:23,440
The priest, This priesthood must
be linked together so that all

1376
01:20:23,440 --> 01:20:26,480
the children may be linked to
Father Adam and may be asked

1377
01:20:26,480 --> 01:20:28,640
when this work will be done.
It will be done in temples in

1378
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:30,440
our day and in the days of our
children.

1379
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:33,760
We will administer in the temple
which we have now begun, and

1380
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:37,560
that is one point gained, and we
will seal men to men by the keys

1381
01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:40,760
of the holy priesthood.
This is the highest ordinance.

1382
01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:43,720
It is the last ordinance of the
Kingdom of God and the earth,

1383
01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:46,320
and above all the endowments
that can be given you.

1384
01:20:46,640 --> 01:20:50,280
It is a final ceiling, an
eternal principle, and when once

1385
01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:52,800
made cannot be broken by the
devil.

1386
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:57,760
So.
Bit more.

1387
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:00,440
Serious than just.
Having your children sealed.

1388
01:21:00,440 --> 01:21:02,400
To you in in the covenant,
right?

1389
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:06,560
And there's another quote that I
wish I had the original source,

1390
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:12,360
but Brigham kind of made a
comment that when the temple was

1391
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:16,480
built, men would be sealed to
men in a more solemn ordinance

1392
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:21,800
and in a higher room than the
ordinance where men were had

1393
01:21:21,800 --> 01:21:26,120
women sealed to them.
So, you know, kind of equating.

1394
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:29,080
This as being.
More on par with, you know, so

1395
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:31,400
when we talk about, you know,
the endowment versus the second

1396
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:35,920
endowment, this was kind of if,
if sealing women to men was, you

1397
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:39,360
know, kind of in Brigham's mind,
kind of on par with, you know,

1398
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:42,360
the the initial first endowment.
He was viewing the law of

1399
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:46,520
adoption as being a principle,
kind of on par with this.

1400
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:49,160
The second endowment, if that
makes it, should kind of take

1401
01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:51,000
place in the Holy of Holies
almost.

1402
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:54,280
Yeah, that's what at least this
one letter seemed to.

1403
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:56,840
Indicate and that quote where
he's talking about this is the

1404
01:21:56,840 --> 01:21:59,520
highest ordinance and it's above
all the endowments that can be

1405
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:01,960
given to you.
And it's about making an

1406
01:22:01,960 --> 01:22:04,800
unbroken chain of the
priesthood, you know, that the

1407
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:10,200
devil cannot break.
And so, yeah, there's there's so

1408
01:22:10,200 --> 01:22:15,320
much, you know, like I said,
there's a lot more to this that

1409
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:17,840
should be let.
Let me ask this.

1410
01:22:18,400 --> 01:22:20,400
Yeah, let me ask this question
real quick.

1411
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:27,760
When do we see these these kind
of law of adoption ceilings stop

1412
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:31,640
completely?
So you know they get the.

1413
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:34,920
Temple, St.
George Temple on. 1877 and then

1414
01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:43,960
in the 1880s they continue to do
adoptions but it seems like you

1415
01:22:43,960 --> 01:22:47,160
know, leaders John Taylor still
believed in it.

1416
01:22:47,160 --> 01:22:49,400
It was still being practiced
under him.

1417
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:54,960
But then after John Taylor, you
start to see some of them, the

1418
01:22:54,960 --> 01:22:57,720
leaders say we don't really
understand this as much as we

1419
01:22:57,720 --> 01:22:59,360
should.
I mean, Brigham Young kind of

1420
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:03,920
made comments admitting that I,
he even felt like his knowledge

1421
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:06,240
was limited and that there could
be.

1422
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:09,960
He says I have only a smattering
of this is what he said.

1423
01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:13,640
But I have the keys where God
can give me more knowledge and I

1424
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:16,960
can attain to more knowledge to
better understand the

1425
01:23:16,960 --> 01:23:20,960
application of this principle.
You know, when the proper time

1426
01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:25,320
comes for it.
And so so John Taylor continued

1427
01:23:25,320 --> 01:23:30,840
to do it in the into the 1880s.
I'm trying to find the quote

1428
01:23:30,840 --> 01:23:35,160
where it said whole families
there.

1429
01:23:35,160 --> 01:23:37,080
There's one statement.
OK found it.

1430
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:41,800
Anti Mormon account in Mormon
portraits in 1886 says people go

1431
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:44,640
there to the Logan temple to
have their children sealed to

1432
01:23:44,640 --> 01:23:46,840
them otherwise they would not
have them in all eternity.

1433
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:49,760
And then whole families get
sealed to brother Taylor to make

1434
01:23:49,760 --> 01:23:52,680
sure of enjoying the all the
advantages of his exceeding

1435
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:55,880
weight of glory.
So kind of anti Mormon account,

1436
01:23:55,880 --> 01:24:00,440
but mentioning that people were
being sealed to John Taylor and

1437
01:24:00,440 --> 01:24:02,640
the temples we have Wilfred
Woodruff's journal during that

1438
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:09,160
time period 1885 said I had 10
January 30th 1885 said I was

1439
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:12,560
sealed for 24 couples of dead
friends and I had 10 adoptions

1440
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:14,720
to me I sealed one living
couple.

1441
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:17,640
So kind of he would, he was
really great at making like a

1442
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:24,600
numerical list account of of how
much ordinances he would do

1443
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:26,680
every day.
And he was, he was very, very

1444
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:30,600
busy with, with the amount of
ordinances that he was doing.

1445
01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:34,040
So one thing that before we talk
about the end of adoption, one

1446
01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:37,520
thing that comes up is how do we
know this went back to Joseph

1447
01:24:37,520 --> 01:24:40,840
Smith?
Like people will say Brigham

1448
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:42,200
Young was teaching this.
Sure.

1449
01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:44,840
How do we know that this went
back to Joseph Smith?

1450
01:24:45,160 --> 01:24:51,760
And I've compiled quite a bit
where I think it's, you know,

1451
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:54,080
pretty evident that it went back
to Joseph Smith.

1452
01:24:54,680 --> 01:24:59,040
And the biggest pieces of
evidence that I would say is the

1453
01:24:59,040 --> 01:25:02,560
first one is that Lyman White,
who separated from Brigham and

1454
01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:07,040
the other apostles in August of
1844, he goes to Zodiac, Texas

1455
01:25:07,480 --> 01:25:12,040
and builds a temple there.
And they're doing, they're doing

1456
01:25:12,480 --> 01:25:15,440
adoptions in, in ceilings in, in
Texas.

1457
01:25:15,440 --> 01:25:17,400
They're doing eternal marriages
and they're doing adoptions.

1458
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:21,040
They're doing kind of an
abbreviated endowment ordinance

1459
01:25:21,320 --> 01:25:24,760
there in Texas.
And so the fact that Lyman, I've

1460
01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:29,280
always said that if, if Lyman
White and Brigham Young are both

1461
01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:33,640
teaching the same thing, that is
evidence to me that they got it

1462
01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:37,360
from Joseph.
Because, you know, Lyman White

1463
01:25:37,360 --> 01:25:40,200
was never with Brigham Young
after the succession crisis.

1464
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:43,200
They were together at the August
8th meeting and, you know,

1465
01:25:43,200 --> 01:25:46,640
supported, you know, the 12, the
people uniting behind the 12.

1466
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:50,440
And then Lyman went off to Texas
and there never was any sort of

1467
01:25:50,440 --> 01:25:53,560
ordinance work with Brigham.
You know, they were, you know,

1468
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:57,800
they kind of became
unfortunately, rivals for a

1469
01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:00,400
large part.
You know, they, they, they were

1470
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:03,160
kind of.
There, there was some, some,

1471
01:26:03,240 --> 01:26:05,920
some rub going on there, right?
I mean, there was some friction

1472
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:09,320
happening between those two.
Yeah.

1473
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:11,560
In a similar way I, I.
Would say that.

1474
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:16,160
As a comparison, like the
question comes up whether a

1475
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:19,040
monogamous ceiling can go to the
celestial Kingdom or not or if

1476
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:22,880
you have to have enter into
polygamy to have you know, to go

1477
01:26:22,880 --> 01:26:25,880
to the celestial Kingdom.
And obviously plural marriage is

1478
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:30,120
a higher law to become a God,
right That that's you know, 1882

1479
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:32,760
revelation to John Taylor
explicitly says does not meet

1480
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:37,080
for men to preside over my
priesthood who do not abide my

1481
01:26:37,080 --> 01:26:41,160
law.
And John Taylor after reading

1482
01:26:41,160 --> 01:26:45,640
that says we have to abide by
the law that our heavenly Father

1483
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:48,440
dwells in.
But what both Brigham Young and

1484
01:26:48,440 --> 01:26:52,960
Lyman and I agreed on was that
if you're a faithful monogamist,

1485
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:56,920
you know, you're sealed
faithfully monogamy, you can go

1486
01:26:56,920 --> 01:27:01,320
to the celestial Kingdom, but
that those who are in plural

1487
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:04,520
successfully, righteously in
plural marriage will have a

1488
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:06,760
greater glory in the celestial
Kingdom.

1489
01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:09,200
They will, you know, they're
further advanced in the

1490
01:27:09,200 --> 01:27:10,760
celestial Kingdom is the way to
put.

1491
01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:16,240
So when I saw that Lyman White
and Brigham Young were teaching

1492
01:27:16,280 --> 01:27:19,440
the same thing in that regard,
it was strong evidence to me

1493
01:27:19,440 --> 01:27:24,280
that what they understood about
ceilings went back to what

1494
01:27:24,280 --> 01:27:29,240
Joseph Smith taught.
So you know, that's that's one

1495
01:27:29,240 --> 01:27:32,320
of the things that I love is
when we, you know, comparative

1496
01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:35,960
study in the restoration is that
there's truth in different

1497
01:27:35,960 --> 01:27:38,320
places.
I think Brigham and the apostles

1498
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:42,200
with him fortunately preserved
the most of what Joseph taught.

1499
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:45,600
But there were other break offs
that did preserve pieces.

1500
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:49,560
And when they agreed with what
Brigham and the 12 caught, then

1501
01:27:49,560 --> 01:27:52,320
I think that's very compelling
evidence that they got it from

1502
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:54,280
Joseph Smith.
Absolutely.

1503
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:56,400
And it's, it's just a good way
of, you know.

1504
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:58,680
Fulfilling that law of witnesses
thing, even, right?

1505
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:02,960
And look, especially when the
two parties don't always agree

1506
01:28:02,960 --> 01:28:05,440
on things, right?
Because there's definitely some

1507
01:28:05,440 --> 01:28:08,040
friction happening between
Brigham Young and Lyman White

1508
01:28:08,600 --> 01:28:12,880
and the fact that they were,
that we see these two teachings

1509
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:16,200
simultaneously in different
parts of the country.

1510
01:28:16,400 --> 01:28:18,520
There's only one common
denominator, right?

1511
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:20,760
And that's that they were taught
by the same guy.

1512
01:28:21,440 --> 01:28:24,840
And so it's it's safe to assume
that this was coming from

1513
01:28:24,840 --> 01:28:27,280
Joseph.
Yeah.

1514
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:30,240
Another.
So there's other pieces of

1515
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:33,720
evidence, like there's a
statement by Willard, not

1516
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:36,920
Willard Richards, excuse me,
Wilfred Woodruff in 1887 about

1517
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:40,080
adoption, where he said he's
admitting he doesn't really

1518
01:28:40,080 --> 01:28:44,320
understand it as much as he'd
like, but he says that surely

1519
01:28:44,320 --> 01:28:47,560
it's a true principle or our
prophets have been badly

1520
01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:49,000
deceiving.
He said that we don't

1521
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:51,440
understand.
He said Paul talked a great deal

1522
01:28:51,440 --> 01:28:55,760
about adoptions, but we did not
understand it until Joseph

1523
01:28:56,280 --> 01:28:59,280
explained it, you know, and so
he's, he's basically indicating

1524
01:28:59,280 --> 01:29:04,520
that it was Joseph Smith who is
the source of, you know,

1525
01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:07,360
adoption.
And similarly, there's

1526
01:29:07,720 --> 01:29:11,560
statements kind of recalling
that even as early as the early

1527
01:29:11,560 --> 01:29:16,640
1830s that Joseph was telling
the Saints that he, the Lord had

1528
01:29:16,640 --> 01:29:21,440
promised him that they, he would
be able to save them, the Saints

1529
01:29:21,440 --> 01:29:25,640
in his Kingdom, Joseph's
kingdoms, just as Christ is made

1530
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:27,600
a place for Joseph in his
Kingdom.

1531
01:29:27,960 --> 01:29:31,160
So you can't have that precursor
to adoption there.

1532
01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:35,680
And then in Nauvoo, you have
people recalling Joseph telling

1533
01:29:35,680 --> 01:29:39,920
them that, you know, your family
is going to be linked to me.

1534
01:29:40,160 --> 01:29:42,240
You know, it's, you know, that
that was something that was

1535
01:29:42,240 --> 01:29:48,120
being taught in the Nauvoo
period or people remembered, you

1536
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:51,000
know, that those conversations
occurred.

1537
01:29:51,640 --> 01:29:55,840
One of one example, just one
example, John DT McAllister in a

1538
01:29:55,840 --> 01:30:02,920
letter to John Taylor on May
22nd, 1882, talking about the

1539
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:07,080
Rowlands family and Mary E
Leitner.

1540
01:30:07,440 --> 01:30:10,120
So he said, as I understand you
are well acquainted with brother

1541
01:30:10,120 --> 01:30:13,720
James A Rowlands and his sister
Mary E, who is the plural wife

1542
01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:17,160
of Joseph, Joseph the Prophet.
It does not require a great deal

1543
01:30:17,160 --> 01:30:20,080
of writing from me because he
has had a second anointing and

1544
01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:21,760
can act for his uncle if
approved.

1545
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:24,080
So they're talking about proxy
ordinances that were being done,

1546
01:30:24,640 --> 01:30:26,840
he said.
But they are they are very much

1547
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:29,640
exercised about their mother.
He informs me that there was

1548
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:32,720
understood when living at
present Joseph Smith's that he

1549
01:30:32,720 --> 01:30:35,960
was to be in his family and
would like his mother sealed to

1550
01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:40,320
him, IE Joseph Smith.
And so then that was accompanied

1551
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:44,520
with a letter by Mary Roland's
Leitner and her brother James to

1552
01:30:44,520 --> 01:30:51,920
John Taylor, which said, you
know, he says, so she was

1553
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:55,480
actually the the mother was
sealed to somebody else later on

1554
01:30:55,480 --> 01:30:59,680
kind of that suggestion.
But that that they felt that it

1555
01:30:59,680 --> 01:31:02,480
would would be more appropriate
to have the mother sealed to

1556
01:31:02,480 --> 01:31:06,400
Joseph as that was, you know,
that they were living in

1557
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:09,680
Joseph's home and that there was
an understanding that they were

1558
01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:12,000
there was to be a a family
connection there.

1559
01:31:12,280 --> 01:31:15,400
So he says, I wish to know if
the sealing of my mother to Mr.

1560
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:17,520
John M Burke in Nauvoo can be
changed.

1561
01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:18,920
And she did not wish to be
sealed to him.

1562
01:31:18,920 --> 01:31:21,120
But Brother Young told her, let
it be for the present and it

1563
01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:23,080
could be changed afterwards.
Or words to that effect.

1564
01:31:23,280 --> 01:31:27,000
Must her sealing her main or was
it to in or or as it was in

1565
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:29,440
Nauvoo or can she be sealed to
Joseph?

1566
01:31:29,440 --> 01:31:32,480
For that is our desire.
Henry desires to be adopted into

1567
01:31:32,480 --> 01:31:35,120
Joseph's Kingdom.
And so then the other letter

1568
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:38,000
made it clear that they were
understood that from Joseph

1569
01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:42,240
while living at his home.
And so you're asking kind of

1570
01:31:42,240 --> 01:31:46,240
when adoption kind of starts
falling out of the picture.

1571
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:51,600
And I really think, you know,
1887, you know, after John

1572
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:55,440
Taylor's death is when people
start, you know, that there

1573
01:31:55,680 --> 01:31:59,080
there was always kind of people
who didn't really understand it.

1574
01:31:59,480 --> 01:32:02,400
But it was after Brigham Young
and John Taylor died that you

1575
01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:07,320
start to see that the general
opinion is we're we don't really

1576
01:32:07,320 --> 01:32:11,520
understand what we're doing kind
of is, you know, what's kind of

1577
01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:13,600
the attitude.
And so an example of this is

1578
01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:18,960
John M Whitaker wrote in his
journal on November 16th, 1887,

1579
01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:21,880
asking church leaders about
adoption.

1580
01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:33,760
He said, let's see, he said.
He says this is being discussed.

1581
01:32:34,320 --> 01:32:36,840
Much is being discussed that no
one seems to know practically

1582
01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:38,960
anything about.
I especially make note of the

1583
01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:41,880
idea here to show the spirit of
the times that many people get

1584
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:44,280
infused with new ideas and rush
into things, sometimes without

1585
01:32:44,280 --> 01:32:47,400
knowing much about the
seriousness of the matter

1586
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:49,640
involved.
Even among members of the 12

1587
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:52,080
apostles, there seems to be
little known about the law of

1588
01:32:52,080 --> 01:32:55,560
adoption at this particular time
like I that I can find out

1589
01:32:55,560 --> 01:32:57,560
about.
President George Buchanan said

1590
01:32:57,560 --> 01:32:59,920
he did not understand the
matter.

1591
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:05,560
So he's a church historian, and
he's kind of saying that, you

1592
01:33:05,560 --> 01:33:08,240
know, that they don't really
understand it as well as they

1593
01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:09,800
could.
And and similarly, there's a

1594
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:16,280
letter by Wilfred Woodruff,
who's acting president 8/18/87,

1595
01:33:17,040 --> 01:33:19,880
which is a very significant
letter where he's kind of

1596
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:22,960
talking about the endowment.
And he says, if I have anything

1597
01:33:22,960 --> 01:33:25,880
to say about the endowment,
follow the pattern that

1598
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:28,960
President Young laid out because
he was with Joseph from the

1599
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:31,240
beginning to the end of the
endowments in Nauvoo.

1600
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:34,840
And, you know, if anyone
understood it, Brigham Young

1601
01:33:34,840 --> 01:33:37,400
did.
So then after kind of talking

1602
01:33:37,400 --> 01:33:41,320
about the, you know, that he, he
talks about adoption in this

1603
01:33:41,320 --> 01:33:46,040
letter.
And so he says, quote, in

1604
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:49,360
relation to adoptions, most if
not all of the president,

1605
01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:52,320
presidency and 12 have men
adopted to them.

1606
01:33:52,560 --> 01:33:56,120
And in all these ceilings and
adoptions, excuse me, and all

1607
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:59,120
these ceilings and adoptions are
for the salvation of the living

1608
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:01,600
and the dead.
I've never asked any man to be

1609
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:05,160
adopted into my family that I
can recollect of, but I have.

1610
01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:08,480
I had a number of family and
friends adopted in my family as

1611
01:34:08,480 --> 01:34:11,840
have other men, without any
regard as to whether it will in

1612
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:13,800
the future cost me $1.00 a
million.

1613
01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:16,560
What we have done in this matter
has been for the salvation of

1614
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:19,120
man.
And then continuing.

1615
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:24,400
He says, Brother Rascal, let's
see, he said there's got to be a

1616
01:34:24,400 --> 01:34:27,680
welding link of some kind before
we get through with this work

1617
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:30,240
that will adopt man to man and
wield all Weld, all

1618
01:34:30,240 --> 01:34:33,320
dispensations from Father Adam
down to the last St.

1619
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:36,680
When all this matters, I do not
go around electioneering to get

1620
01:34:36,680 --> 01:34:39,000
men adopted to me.
I don't want any of this work

1621
01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:41,000
done for me, only what the Lord
wants.

1622
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:44,640
Paul talked a great deal about
adoptions, but we did not

1623
01:34:44,640 --> 01:34:47,720
understand much about it until
the Lord revealed it to Joseph

1624
01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:51,440
Smith, and we may not perhaps
understand it now as fully as we

1625
01:34:51,440 --> 01:34:54,600
should.
Still the ceilings and adoptions

1626
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:58,400
are true principles or our
prophets have been badly

1627
01:34:58,400 --> 01:35:02,440
deceived.
So that's a pretty key statement

1628
01:35:02,440 --> 01:35:05,240
there saying, you know, we may
not, you know, we we don't

1629
01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:07,600
understand it as much as we'd
like and we probably don't

1630
01:35:07,600 --> 01:35:11,320
understand it as much as we
should, but still this is a true

1631
01:35:11,320 --> 01:35:14,840
principle or our profits have
been badly deceived.

1632
01:35:15,520 --> 01:35:21,000
So very clear statement saying
that this was had to be a true

1633
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:22,680
principle.
And that's that's one of the

1634
01:35:22,680 --> 01:35:27,680
things that that made me realize
that this something was, you

1635
01:35:27,680 --> 01:35:32,440
know, something was seriously
off with what happened after

1636
01:35:32,600 --> 01:35:36,640
1894 was when they officially
ended adoption to the present

1637
01:35:36,640 --> 01:35:41,160
was either the 1st 50 years of
temple ordinances were being

1638
01:35:41,160 --> 01:35:44,520
done correctly and according to
the the pattern.

1639
01:35:45,000 --> 01:35:49,080
Or are we going to say that the
1st 50 years were church leaders

1640
01:35:49,080 --> 01:35:52,960
screwing up and not really
knowing what was going on and

1641
01:35:52,960 --> 01:35:56,280
that everything after 1894 when
they stopped practicing

1642
01:35:56,280 --> 01:35:59,520
adoption, you know, was, is the
true method.

1643
01:35:59,520 --> 01:36:03,200
And so that was the thing that
made me kind of go, I kind of

1644
01:36:03,720 --> 01:36:07,840
lean towards spring water.
Is the taste better closer to

1645
01:36:07,840 --> 01:36:11,000
the fountain?
And I feel like I'm better off

1646
01:36:11,000 --> 01:36:13,960
trusting the people who are
closer to the fountain, who are

1647
01:36:13,960 --> 01:36:18,240
closer to what Joseph taught
than people who come down the

1648
01:36:18,240 --> 01:36:22,160
road.
And, you know, basically in some

1649
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:26,040
ways it's they, they kind of
admit that we, we're, you know,

1650
01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:28,520
that they're, that they don't
really understand things as much

1651
01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:31,280
as they did before.
I mean, I mean, like in, in some

1652
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:35,160
ways they, they kind of say, you
know, we don't really understand

1653
01:36:35,160 --> 01:36:37,760
why we're doing it this way.
But you know, this way is the

1654
01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:39,800
way we're feeling like doing
things now.

1655
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:43,280
And that's when the doctrine of
ceiling became, oh, it'll all be

1656
01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:46,000
worked out on the other side.
We don't have to really think

1657
01:36:46,000 --> 01:36:51,480
about or worry about it.
And so I want to touch on work

1658
01:36:51,480 --> 01:36:55,280
for the dead because this is a
very important aspect of the

1659
01:36:55,280 --> 01:36:58,440
restoration.
And, you know, if we are, you

1660
01:36:58,440 --> 01:37:02,240
know, Joseph said baptism for
for the dead was one of the most

1661
01:37:02,240 --> 01:37:05,600
important principles.
You know, there's unequivocal

1662
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:10,440
terms where he's talking about
this being, you know, that work

1663
01:37:10,440 --> 01:37:14,960
for the dead being one of the
most important things, you know,

1664
01:37:14,960 --> 01:37:16,840
that we could do in this
dispensation.

1665
01:37:16,840 --> 01:37:20,320
Talk about the temple doctrines,
you know, and, and it's, it's

1666
01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:23,360
connected.
But before we go on to that, I

1667
01:37:23,360 --> 01:37:25,080
do, I do have.
A question here.

1668
01:37:25,440 --> 01:37:31,480
So, Wilford, just what the?
History tells us right the.

1669
01:37:31,480 --> 01:37:35,600
Manifesto was not the end of
plural marriage in Utah, right?

1670
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:39,600
We have Wilford Woodruff
essentially being like, yeah,

1671
01:37:39,800 --> 01:37:44,280
you know, we stopped wink, wink,
nod, nod, right this.

1672
01:37:44,640 --> 01:37:49,360
Is there any evidence to suggest
that after Wilford says yeah,

1673
01:37:49,360 --> 01:37:52,920
we're not doing this anymore,
that they continue to do it kind

1674
01:37:52,920 --> 01:37:54,480
of like they did with plural
marriage?

1675
01:37:57,640 --> 01:38:03,360
And not not.
Exactly so in a similar way, so

1676
01:38:03,360 --> 01:38:06,400
I understand with plural
marriage, like the manifesto was

1677
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:08,360
intended to be a lie to the
government.

1678
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:11,320
You know, it was not really
intended to be a revelation

1679
01:38:11,320 --> 01:38:14,080
doing away with plural marriage.
It was not even really

1680
01:38:14,080 --> 01:38:17,040
considered a revelation.
And initially it was considered

1681
01:38:17,200 --> 01:38:21,360
something, a document that
Wilford felt inspired it.

1682
01:38:21,480 --> 01:38:25,520
It was considered inspired
advice to the Saints for the

1683
01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:28,640
salvation of the church.
That's how they initially framed

1684
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:32,680
it and then it grew over, you
know, the lie grew over time,

1685
01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:35,160
unfortunately.
And that's the problem with lies

1686
01:38:35,160 --> 01:38:40,040
is that they often outlive the
people telling them so.

1687
01:38:40,040 --> 01:38:44,280
But, you know, after the
majority of, you know, a lot of

1688
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:48,920
those leaders who were involved
with issuing that lie after they

1689
01:38:48,920 --> 01:38:51,800
passed on, then the next
generation, you know, issued,

1690
01:38:51,840 --> 01:38:55,120
you know, enforced it with a
vengeance, you know, took it as.

1691
01:38:56,360 --> 01:39:00,000
So what's interesting with the
manifesto because there's

1692
01:39:02,640 --> 01:39:05,600
there's kind of discussion.
About maybe?

1693
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:09,400
Woodruff could Woodruff have
felt really been inspired of of

1694
01:39:09,400 --> 01:39:14,160
God to issue the manifesto
because, you know, the church

1695
01:39:14,160 --> 01:39:16,840
was in a really hard place and
we at least sympathize with the

1696
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:19,480
hard place he was in.
You know, that we, you know,

1697
01:39:20,080 --> 01:39:24,120
don't want to throw stones at
Woodruff for being in a very,

1698
01:39:25,080 --> 01:39:28,240
extremely between a rock and a
hard place, you know, extremely

1699
01:39:28,240 --> 01:39:33,720
difficult situation.
But you know, at the very best,

1700
01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:39,720
I see the manifesto as they ask
the Lord over and over and over

1701
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:43,640
again if, if they could, if the
Lord would be OK with them

1702
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:46,920
suspending plural marriage,
right, for the salvation of the

1703
01:39:46,920 --> 01:39:49,520
church.
That's the 1886 revelations

1704
01:39:49,520 --> 01:39:51,880
context.
My son John, you've asked me

1705
01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:53,800
concerning the new and
everlasting covenant.

1706
01:39:54,080 --> 01:39:56,040
How far is it binding on my
people?

1707
01:39:56,640 --> 01:40:01,080
The 1889 revelation to Wilfred
Woodruff was about asking about

1708
01:40:01,080 --> 01:40:04,800
issuing A manifesto and the
Lords and very thus saith the

1709
01:40:04,800 --> 01:40:08,960
Lord said, you know, make no
further pledges of my

1710
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:11,560
priesthood.
You know, your enemies seek the

1711
01:40:11,560 --> 01:40:16,200
destruction of this people and
and so that's, you know, at the

1712
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:20,800
very best you can look at the
manifesto as Martin Harrison the

1713
01:40:20,800 --> 01:40:24,560
116 pages where they asked the
Lord repeatedly.

1714
01:40:24,880 --> 01:40:28,320
Finally, the Lord gave in and
let them.

1715
01:40:28,760 --> 01:40:30,080
Do it.
But that doesn't mean that's

1716
01:40:30,080 --> 01:40:32,640
what the Lord wanted, right?
Or that there wouldn't be

1717
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:35,360
repercussions.
Yeah, yeah.

1718
01:40:35,360 --> 01:40:39,080
And so that's.
Most charitable way of looking

1719
01:40:39,080 --> 01:40:44,280
at the manifesto.
I personally lean toward lean

1720
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:46,480
against that interpretation
where I think that the Lord

1721
01:40:46,480 --> 01:40:49,600
didn't want the manifesto to be
issued.

1722
01:40:50,240 --> 01:40:54,240
You know, just simply because
1889 revelation is seems to be

1723
01:40:54,240 --> 01:40:56,760
very direct, like I don't think
the Lord changes his mind like

1724
01:40:56,760 --> 01:41:00,880
that Where, you know, he says
don't do this, I can't do this.

1725
01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:04,520
I won't revoke this law.
And then they go ahead and and

1726
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:08,600
do it anyway.
You know, and and what Woodruff

1727
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:11,080
didn't really consider a
revelation at the time he

1728
01:41:11,080 --> 01:41:14,240
considered it.
You know, I felt I was given

1729
01:41:14,240 --> 01:41:17,960
this vision of the destruction
that would befall us and I felt

1730
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:21,320
impressed to write this.
That's not really God giving it.

1731
01:41:21,320 --> 01:41:24,320
Thus saith the Lord revelation
to do it.

1732
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:31,440
And then the other thing is that
in 1888, on December 20th, 1888,

1733
01:41:31,440 --> 01:41:35,240
there was a meeting of the
apostles to discuss issuing A

1734
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:38,640
manifesto then.
So this is like year after year

1735
01:41:38,640 --> 01:41:40,440
they are discussing this in the
1880s.

1736
01:41:40,440 --> 01:41:42,320
This is not one time or two
times.

1737
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:46,960
This is there's repeated
discussions about political, you

1738
01:41:46,960 --> 01:41:51,120
know, issuing, you know, a
political concession to try to

1739
01:41:51,120 --> 01:41:54,560
save the church, you know, and
so in this meeting, the apostles

1740
01:41:54,560 --> 01:41:58,640
unanimously rejected this
document that their political

1741
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:02,840
friends, you know, Woodruff
said, wanted them to consider.

1742
01:42:03,080 --> 01:42:07,200
And so Woodruff said this after
saying he was he was overjoyed

1743
01:42:07,200 --> 01:42:10,760
at the at the at the at the
opinion of the brethren in

1744
01:42:10,760 --> 01:42:13,960
rejecting it, he said, quote,
the Lord will never give a

1745
01:42:13,960 --> 01:42:16,480
revelation for us to abandon
plural marriage.

1746
01:42:16,800 --> 01:42:20,120
And if we had accepted this
document, we should have found

1747
01:42:20,120 --> 01:42:24,480
ourselves under condemnation.
Our enemies are laboring for our

1748
01:42:24,480 --> 01:42:27,280
destruction.
If we were to abandon this

1749
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:31,680
principle, we will be required
to give up other principles.

1750
01:42:32,440 --> 01:42:38,800
And so that's the thing that's
in the 1890s looking at is what

1751
01:42:38,800 --> 01:42:41,160
were the fruits of the
manifesto?

1752
01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:45,480
And I would say there aren't a
whole lot of good fruits with,

1753
01:42:46,320 --> 01:42:50,200
you know, having to say one
thing publicly, do another thing

1754
01:42:50,200 --> 01:42:52,440
privately.
And it almost was creating like

1755
01:42:52,440 --> 01:42:56,640
a, you know, a where the
blessings of plural marriage

1756
01:42:56,640 --> 01:42:59,680
were only given to those who had
insider access, right.

1757
01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:03,280
Under those conditions where you
had to know somebody, you know,

1758
01:43:03,280 --> 01:43:06,920
you had to know an apostle, you
had to know a leader in order to

1759
01:43:06,920 --> 01:43:10,480
to get kind of snuck in and
still beginning those, those

1760
01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:14,120
those blessings.
But when I look at the 1890s,

1761
01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:19,040
they are principal after
principal starts going away with

1762
01:43:19,040 --> 01:43:20,960
the manifest after the
manifesto.

1763
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:25,080
It seems like you do the big
hurdle of caving to the

1764
01:43:25,080 --> 01:43:28,440
government then for over what
they were considering was like

1765
01:43:28,440 --> 01:43:32,280
the litmus test, like battle.
You know that the principle they

1766
01:43:32,280 --> 01:43:35,760
were battling over.
Then it became so easy to give

1767
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:41,760
up, you know, anything else that
became an inconvenience or, you

1768
01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:45,360
know, a difficulty, an adoption,
as we were discussing, there is

1769
01:43:45,360 --> 01:43:47,880
difficulties with it.
You have people trying to use it

1770
01:43:47,880 --> 01:43:51,480
to divide the Saints or to
grandize them, you know, to

1771
01:43:51,480 --> 01:43:54,680
build up their own independent
Kingdom and would be a, you

1772
01:43:54,680 --> 01:43:56,400
know, who would abuse that
principle.

1773
01:43:56,840 --> 01:44:00,680
And so it seems almost
convenient that you could do

1774
01:44:00,680 --> 01:44:04,640
away with.
I mean, you know, one thing that

1775
01:44:04,640 --> 01:44:08,840
was kind of surprising to me was
that Woodruff, I mean, not

1776
01:44:08,840 --> 01:44:12,840
Woodruff Cannon.
They, the, they issued the

1777
01:44:12,840 --> 01:44:16,600
manifesto.
You know, they, I think they

1778
01:44:16,600 --> 01:44:18,920
issue it first in September.
That's presented at conference

1779
01:44:18,920 --> 01:44:23,880
in October of 1890.
In October, Cannon breaks his

1780
01:44:23,880 --> 01:44:28,320
adoption covenant with his uncle
John Taylor, you know, the 3rd

1781
01:44:28,320 --> 01:44:32,400
president of the church, and has
himself sealed to his own

1782
01:44:32,400 --> 01:44:34,800
biological father instead of to
John Taylor.

1783
01:44:35,360 --> 01:44:38,600
Right after the manifesto.
I was kind of surprised when I

1784
01:44:38,600 --> 01:44:43,000
saw that in Canon's journal.
His father had rejected the

1785
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:47,040
gospel.
You know, he, he, he had, he

1786
01:44:47,040 --> 01:44:50,800
chose to be adopted to his uncle
in the Nauvoo Temple because his

1787
01:44:50,800 --> 01:44:53,360
uncle had chosen, you know, to
accept the gospel and be

1788
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:55,600
faithful while his father
didn't.

1789
01:44:56,960 --> 01:45:00,680
And so for him to break his
adoption covenant was a very sad

1790
01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:06,880
thing for me to see, you know,
because what's interesting is he

1791
01:45:06,880 --> 01:45:10,400
had a, he, he defends adoption
in some of his journal entries.

1792
01:45:10,400 --> 01:45:13,320
He, he, he's cautious about it,
but he still defends it.

1793
01:45:13,800 --> 01:45:16,680
And so one interesting thing
where, you know, place where he

1794
01:45:16,680 --> 01:45:24,520
defends it is in the Diaries of
Abraham Cannon, his son, where

1795
01:45:26,600 --> 01:45:31,240
and on December 18th, 1890,
Joseph F Smith starts as the

1796
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:35,040
first person that says we should
not be adopted to other people.

1797
01:45:35,040 --> 01:45:38,520
We should just seal our family
lines back as far as we can and

1798
01:45:38,520 --> 01:45:41,840
seal the last one to Joseph.
He says that in 1890.

1799
01:45:42,360 --> 01:45:47,000
And George Buchanan in response,
defends adoption, which is kind

1800
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:50,240
of I'm, I'm having a hard time
wrapping my head around it

1801
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:54,440
because he broke his adoption
covenants, you know, two months

1802
01:45:54,440 --> 01:45:57,160
earlier.
So this is what Abraham Cannon

1803
01:45:57,160 --> 01:45:58,600
wrote.
He said, quote, father holds

1804
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:02,000
that we who live on the earth
now and are faithful will stand

1805
01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:04,840
at the head of our lineage and
will thus become saviors as has

1806
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:05,960
been promised.
U.S.

1807
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:08,680
President John Taylor was not
sealed to his parents, though

1808
01:46:08,680 --> 01:46:11,520
they died in the church as he
felt it was rather lowering

1809
01:46:11,520 --> 01:46:13,880
himself to be sealed when he was
an apostle and his father was a

1810
01:46:13,880 --> 01:46:16,920
high priest.
But this is a rather

1811
01:46:16,920 --> 01:46:19,800
questionable proceeding.
But then they in George

1812
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:22,560
Buchanan's journal for that day,
he said I made some appropriate

1813
01:46:22,560 --> 01:46:26,000
remarks on adoption and
President Woodruff backed me up

1814
01:46:26,200 --> 01:46:30,040
in what I said is what he wrote
in his journal about that

1815
01:46:30,040 --> 01:46:32,520
discussion.
And So what that kind of

1816
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:38,280
mentions there is about work for
the dead is that you have them

1817
01:46:38,280 --> 01:46:40,760
linked to you because.
You are their savior.

1818
01:46:40,760 --> 01:46:44,840
On Mount Zion performing those
ordinances and you are further

1819
01:46:44,840 --> 01:46:49,800
along the gospel path and you
don't even know if they're going

1820
01:46:49,800 --> 01:46:54,680
to accept those ordinances, let
alone live faithful and qualify

1821
01:46:54,680 --> 01:46:58,840
for those blessings.
You know, so it's, they are, you

1822
01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:01,800
know, doing the work for them.
Isn't some people look at

1823
01:47:01,800 --> 01:47:05,720
ordinance work is like a check,
a check mark like I, I, I've,

1824
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:07,480
I've got my ordinances, I'm
good.

1825
01:47:07,880 --> 01:47:11,560
But in reality, the ordinances
are putting you on a path and

1826
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:13,280
that same with same with the
dead.

1827
01:47:13,280 --> 01:47:16,320
When you're doing ordinances for
the dead, you are putting them

1828
01:47:16,320 --> 01:47:20,000
on the path.
And it's going to be a very

1829
01:47:20,000 --> 01:47:24,120
laborious work to teach them
even beyond the veil, you know,

1830
01:47:24,120 --> 01:47:28,600
to, for them to, you know,
progress in the gospel, you

1831
01:47:28,600 --> 01:47:32,480
know, and really, you know, it's
immortality where you face the

1832
01:47:32,520 --> 01:47:35,040
the really hard test.
You know, if we could all just

1833
01:47:35,360 --> 01:47:37,840
figure it out on the, you know,
in the spirit world, then we

1834
01:47:37,840 --> 01:47:40,840
wouldn't really need to, right?
What's the point here?

1835
01:47:41,280 --> 01:47:43,080
Go round.
Yeah, to.

1836
01:47:43,080 --> 01:47:44,880
Come here in mortality and it
the point is.

1837
01:47:45,160 --> 01:47:49,320
To face the opposition and see
if you will, you know, improve

1838
01:47:49,320 --> 01:47:55,000
and be faithful even in spite of
all the heart, all the

1839
01:47:55,000 --> 01:48:00,520
difficulties and that separation
from God that we are willing to

1840
01:48:00,800 --> 01:48:05,680
still be faithful when we, you
know, are kind of, you know, at

1841
01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:07,640
times feel alone, right?
Yeah.

1842
01:48:07,640 --> 01:48:10,880
And I don't know if you want to
add anything to that.

1843
01:48:10,880 --> 01:48:12,480
Yeah.
I I don't want to add anything.

1844
01:48:12,480 --> 01:48:16,200
I do have a question though.
So do you get a sense on why

1845
01:48:16,200 --> 01:48:19,520
Canon cancel the ceiling?
Was it just because, you know,

1846
01:48:19,520 --> 01:48:23,680
Woodruff said, Hey, we should be
sealed to our own, you know, our

1847
01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:29,840
own parents sort of a thing or
I'm, I'm trying to wrap my mind

1848
01:48:29,840 --> 01:48:33,720
around it, right, Because you do
have guys who are polygamous,

1849
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:37,800
especially up top, who when the
manifesto comes down, they, they

1850
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:40,040
still take care of their wives
and children, right?

1851
01:48:41,000 --> 01:48:44,240
Some, I know that some members
did leave their their other

1852
01:48:44,240 --> 01:48:47,840
families.
Not what I would do, but

1853
01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:52,000
whatever.
Do we have any indication on

1854
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:53,640
what causes?
Canon to do this is.

1855
01:48:53,640 --> 01:48:57,440
He just trying to be obedient to
to Wilford.

1856
01:48:58,720 --> 01:49:03,800
So one thing that comes up in
the 18. 80s under in Canon's

1857
01:49:03,800 --> 01:49:08,000
journal specifically is John
Taylor apparently makes some

1858
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:11,640
sort of comments about how he
feels like he needs to have

1859
01:49:11,640 --> 01:49:15,640
himself directly linked to
Joseph Smith in adoption and

1860
01:49:15,640 --> 01:49:20,800
Canon's kinda and this is
probably why Abraham Canon wrote

1861
01:49:20,800 --> 01:49:22,840
that his father considered a
questionable affair.

1862
01:49:23,200 --> 01:49:26,800
Canon thinks that because John
Taylor had faithful parents in

1863
01:49:26,800 --> 01:49:29,920
the church, he should be linked
to those parents and then linked

1864
01:49:29,920 --> 01:49:31,760
to Joe Smith.
That's what Brigham Young kind

1865
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:34,920
of talked about, his stealing
line, that because his father

1866
01:49:34,920 --> 01:49:38,440
was a faithful member of the
church and eras the snow had a

1867
01:49:38,440 --> 01:49:41,760
faithful father in the church.
And so, you know, if your father

1868
01:49:41,760 --> 01:49:44,840
was a faithful member of the
church, then it naturally it

1869
01:49:44,840 --> 01:49:47,800
would make sense to link
yourself to them and then, you

1870
01:49:47,800 --> 01:49:49,800
know, link them back into the
chain.

1871
01:49:51,000 --> 01:49:54,840
And so John Taylor, however, I
think felt like, yeah, he needed

1872
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:58,760
a closer connection with Joseph
Smith is what it kind of got

1873
01:49:58,760 --> 01:50:01,240
from those entries.
And Canon was kind of

1874
01:50:01,320 --> 01:50:03,200
uncomfortable with that.
And he said he was also

1875
01:50:03,200 --> 01:50:06,680
uncomfortable with
electioneering that kind of had

1876
01:50:06,680 --> 01:50:10,400
happened in the 18, you know, in
the winter quarters period.

1877
01:50:11,120 --> 01:50:15,200
And I do think that a part of
people, I think a lot of people

1878
01:50:15,200 --> 01:50:19,480
can accept adoption
intellectually, but when it

1879
01:50:19,480 --> 01:50:23,200
comes to like a, you know, a lot
of people personally feel

1880
01:50:23,200 --> 01:50:27,840
strongly to their, you know, and
there's no fault in that.

1881
01:50:27,840 --> 01:50:32,240
And I, I feel strongly about my
connections with my father, who

1882
01:50:32,480 --> 01:50:37,680
even if he's not accepted the
higher principles and he's a

1883
01:50:37,680 --> 01:50:42,640
great man, I still feel that
kinship as a son to my father.

1884
01:50:42,960 --> 01:50:47,560
And so I can understand people
having those natural sympathies

1885
01:50:47,560 --> 01:50:51,800
and feelings towards, you know,
their their parents, But when,

1886
01:50:52,120 --> 01:50:54,880
and I think part of it is people
feel like if they're being

1887
01:50:54,880 --> 01:50:58,840
adopted to someone else, you
know, they're throwing away that

1888
01:50:58,840 --> 01:51:03,600
parental relationship is kind of
what I've heard people feel like

1889
01:51:03,600 --> 01:51:06,840
that might be the the way they
look at, but I don't see it that

1890
01:51:06,840 --> 01:51:09,920
way at all at all.
In in the celestial Kingdom.

1891
01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:13,480
It's a very we're talking about
sealed lines in the celestial

1892
01:51:13,480 --> 01:51:16,400
Kingdom.
It's a lot more about a sealed

1893
01:51:16,400 --> 01:51:20,960
lineages of gods.
Like this is not a parent child

1894
01:51:20,960 --> 01:51:25,560
relationship as Lynn, like
you're a little boy and you know

1895
01:51:25,560 --> 01:51:31,360
you're you're being like you
know it.

1896
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:34,520
It's not the same kind of you're
not trading your, you're not

1897
01:51:34,520 --> 01:51:37,200
trading your dad in for.
Another dad, so to speak.

1898
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:40,640
Yeah, he was still your, your,
you know, the, the one who

1899
01:51:40,640 --> 01:51:43,120
raised.
You, the one who you know had

1900
01:51:43,120 --> 01:51:46,000
that those you know, those
experiences with you.

1901
01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:49,720
And so this you know, you have
the the way work for the dead

1902
01:51:49,720 --> 01:51:52,720
worked was, you know, you would
have them linked to you.

1903
01:51:52,800 --> 01:51:56,480
And it's not like, you know, I'm
your father now.

1904
01:51:56,480 --> 01:52:00,280
It's like I'm, you know, I'm a
father in the OR patriarchal

1905
01:52:00,280 --> 01:52:03,520
father is the term you used.
You know, I am on the path to

1906
01:52:03,520 --> 01:52:05,640
godhood.
I am a, you know, working

1907
01:52:05,640 --> 01:52:08,080
towards being a king and priest
or a king and a priest in the

1908
01:52:08,440 --> 01:52:11,760
celestial order.
And I'm going to raise up my

1909
01:52:11,760 --> 01:52:14,560
father to be a God and a king
and a priest.

1910
01:52:14,800 --> 01:52:17,920
And I'm going to teach him how
to be like, you know, what I

1911
01:52:17,920 --> 01:52:21,960
have learned how to be.
And so, you know, you're not

1912
01:52:21,960 --> 01:52:27,240
throwing away your father.
And so you know, the way so

1913
01:52:27,240 --> 01:52:29,960
I've, I've this really
fascinated me when I first

1914
01:52:29,960 --> 01:52:37,400
learned about the, the dead were
sealed to the, the, the living,

1915
01:52:37,400 --> 01:52:42,160
because I'm like, wow, that's a,
you know, that's kind of an

1916
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:45,520
obscure part of adoption.
That's not really talked about a

1917
01:52:45,520 --> 01:52:50,160
lot, but it, it's kind of hinted
at when you go back to the Nabu

1918
01:52:50,160 --> 01:52:55,240
temple revelation where it says
in it says, behold, at the end

1919
01:52:55,240 --> 01:52:58,120
of this appointment, your
baptisms for your dead shall not

1920
01:52:58,120 --> 01:53:00,840
be acceptable unto me.
And if you do not these things

1921
01:53:00,840 --> 01:53:04,080
at the end of the appointment,
ye shall be rejected as a church

1922
01:53:04,080 --> 01:53:07,320
with your dead, saith the Lord
your God.

1923
01:53:07,600 --> 01:53:10,440
And I read that and I was like,
why is the dead?

1924
01:53:10,960 --> 01:53:14,040
So if so, if the living people
don't live up to what they're

1925
01:53:14,040 --> 01:53:17,920
supposed to do, why are the dead
who they do ordinances for being

1926
01:53:17,920 --> 01:53:20,280
rejected?
Also, it doesn't really make

1927
01:53:20,280 --> 01:53:22,840
sense if they were, you know, if
it was a valid ordinance.

1928
01:53:22,840 --> 01:53:25,920
It's like if you perform a
baptism for someone and you

1929
01:53:26,480 --> 01:53:31,400
pastatize and get rejected by
God, that baptism you performed

1930
01:53:31,400 --> 01:53:35,080
when you were righteous
priesthood holder isn't invalid.

1931
01:53:35,600 --> 01:53:39,560
You know, it doesn't undo all
the ordinances you did if if you

1932
01:53:39,560 --> 01:53:43,600
know before you fell.
And so that didn't make sense to

1933
01:53:43,600 --> 01:53:47,240
me until I learned about the
dead being linked to the living.

1934
01:53:47,240 --> 01:53:51,160
And then it's like, well, you
being rejected with your dead is

1935
01:53:51,160 --> 01:53:52,480
your dead that are linked to
you.

1936
01:53:53,240 --> 01:53:56,520
So they would have to be linked
to someone else if you were

1937
01:53:56,520 --> 01:53:59,560
rejected because of
unfaithfulness is what that was

1938
01:54:00,120 --> 01:54:03,520
alluding to.
And you start to see that very

1939
01:54:03,520 --> 01:54:08,640
early on in in charcoal
blessings even before the 12

1940
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:13,680
returned back to Nauvoo on.
So this is John Smith, Joseph

1941
01:54:13,680 --> 01:54:18,280
Smith's uncle in a patriarchal
blessing to Alan Stout on July

1942
01:54:18,280 --> 01:54:22,160
30th, 1844.
He said he this blessing, it

1943
01:54:22,160 --> 01:54:25,600
said, quote, thou shalt have the
privilege of redeeming thy dead

1944
01:54:25,920 --> 01:54:29,040
and bring them up in the
resurrection and reign over them

1945
01:54:29,040 --> 01:54:32,280
with thy companion and children
to all eternity.

1946
01:54:32,720 --> 01:54:35,160
And so they're it's kind of
talking about the dead being in

1947
01:54:35,160 --> 01:54:37,520
your Kingdom, you know, in the
resurrection.

1948
01:54:38,280 --> 01:54:42,400
So that's the one patriarchal
blessing, the the patriarch.

1949
01:54:42,520 --> 01:54:45,080
You know, there's other
patriarchal blessings that that

1950
01:54:45,080 --> 01:54:50,280
mentioned that, you know, so
Brigham Young very explicitly

1951
01:54:50,280 --> 01:54:54,800
said that reference this in a in
a discourse he gave to the 70s

1952
01:54:54,800 --> 01:54:59,320
on February 10th, 1845, where he
said, quote, according to the

1953
01:54:59,320 --> 01:55:03,120
order established, all saviors
shall stand at the head of those

1954
01:55:03,120 --> 01:55:07,240
whom they redeem and bring them
into their own king up in excuse

1955
01:55:07,240 --> 01:55:11,680
me and bring them into their own
Kingdom and reign over them.

1956
01:55:12,160 --> 01:55:15,040
Consequently, all men must be
redeemed by men that are found

1957
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:18,840
worthy and the women are to be
redeemed by women acting for and

1958
01:55:18,840 --> 01:55:21,880
in their behalf.
For example, a man and his wife

1959
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:24,600
will go into the font.
The man will be baptized for all

1960
01:55:24,600 --> 01:55:28,280
his male relatives and also the
male relatives of his wife and

1961
01:55:28,280 --> 01:55:31,120
she will be baptized for all the
females that is related to

1962
01:55:31,120 --> 01:55:35,800
herself or husband and bring
them up into their Kingdom and

1963
01:55:35,800 --> 01:55:39,760
their reign over them.
So that was one quote about it

1964
01:55:39,760 --> 01:55:43,000
and another quote Brigham said
about it said quote.

1965
01:55:43,000 --> 01:55:45,480
Before I stop, I will answer a
question that has been

1966
01:55:45,480 --> 01:55:48,280
repeatedly asked me.
Should I have a father who is

1967
01:55:48,280 --> 01:55:49,960
dead who has never heard this
gospel?

1968
01:55:50,160 --> 01:55:52,920
Would it be required of me to
redeem him and then have him

1969
01:55:52,920 --> 01:55:56,040
adopted into some man's family
and I be adopted to my father.

1970
01:55:56,400 --> 01:56:00,640
So kind of what Canon was ended
up doing right, by being like,

1971
01:56:00,640 --> 01:56:03,680
oh, I'm going to link myself to
my dad and and link my dad to,

1972
01:56:05,280 --> 01:56:08,280
you know, you know what, what
what happens later on.

1973
01:56:08,840 --> 01:56:13,120
So he's referencing that kind of
idea in the sermon in February

1974
01:56:13,120 --> 01:56:16,400
of 1847.
Brigham said, quote, I answer

1975
01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:18,440
no.
If we have to attempt the

1976
01:56:18,440 --> 01:56:21,720
ordinance of redeeming our dead
relatives, we then become their

1977
01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:24,080
saviors.
And were we to wait to redeem

1978
01:56:24,080 --> 01:56:26,480
our dead relatives before we
could link the chains of the

1979
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:29,720
priesthood, we would never
accomplish it.

1980
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:33,680
So he's kind of saying like, we
can't wait for them to accept

1981
01:56:33,680 --> 01:56:37,200
the gospel, for us to progress
in the gospel, you know, is what

1982
01:56:37,200 --> 01:56:40,760
Brigham Brigham is saying.
And so I think part of where

1983
01:56:40,760 --> 01:56:43,480
Canon might, one of the things
that if I'm being charitable,

1984
01:56:43,480 --> 01:56:46,560
where he might have went wrong
is he's doing the ordinance work

1985
01:56:46,560 --> 01:56:49,680
for his family and for his
father, getting his proxy

1986
01:56:49,680 --> 01:56:53,440
endowments for him.
And he's feeling the spirit

1987
01:56:53,440 --> 01:56:56,440
strongly that his father is
accepting the ordinance.

1988
01:56:57,040 --> 01:57:00,080
And so therefore he's getting
confused and thinking, OK, I can

1989
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:04,480
link myself and my father now is
kind of what he was thinking

1990
01:57:04,520 --> 01:57:08,880
instead of understanding that as
my father's being linked to me,

1991
01:57:08,960 --> 01:57:10,960
if that makes sense.
Yeah, let me.

1992
01:57:10,960 --> 01:57:13,440
So let let me see if I can
summarize this and make.

1993
01:57:13,440 --> 01:57:20,560
Sure, I have it right.
So rather than seal our OK my

1994
01:57:20,560 --> 01:57:21,800
case.
We'll just use my dad.

1995
01:57:21,800 --> 01:57:24,880
As an example, he passed before
I became a Mormon.

1996
01:57:26,520 --> 01:57:29,120
So rather than go in and do.
My dad's work and.

1997
01:57:29,120 --> 01:57:33,200
Then seal him to, I don't know,
Joseph Smith as an example, and

1998
01:57:33,200 --> 01:57:36,200
then me be sealed to my dad.
The proper order, based on what

1999
01:57:36,200 --> 01:57:39,680
we just heard from Brigham, was
for me to take my dad's name to

2000
01:57:39,680 --> 01:57:44,560
the temple, do his work after
I've.

2001
01:57:44,560 --> 01:57:46,720
Been sealed to a living line, so
to speak.

2002
01:57:46,840 --> 01:57:51,160
Right, Joseph or whoever and
then have my dad sealed to me.

2003
01:57:51,440 --> 01:57:55,480
Is that a good, is that a good,
good synopsis of that?

2004
01:57:56,200 --> 01:57:59,160
Yep, yeah, absolutely.
So I'm.

2005
01:57:59,240 --> 01:58:01,680
I'm glad you asked that, that
clarification.

2006
01:58:02,160 --> 01:58:06,120
And so, you know, like I said
with comparing what other

2007
01:58:06,160 --> 01:58:09,080
branches of the Restoration were
teaching, what I thought was

2008
01:58:09,080 --> 01:58:14,080
interesting was that I see this
idea of the dead being linked to

2009
01:58:14,080 --> 01:58:18,600
the living in other branches of
the Restoration in the 1840s.

2010
01:58:18,880 --> 01:58:23,600
So Sydney Rigdon and James
Strang both had this idea of, of

2011
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:26,800
baptism for the dead in, in
teaching.

2012
01:58:26,840 --> 01:58:30,720
I mean, Rigdon obviously was in
Nauvoo and he was getting pieces

2013
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:32,400
of it.
He obviously rejected plural

2014
01:58:32,400 --> 01:58:36,400
marriage, but you know, he still
understood parts of it.

2015
01:58:36,400 --> 01:58:40,240
And he tried to have, you know,
he wanted to have kings and

2016
01:58:40,240 --> 01:58:42,240
priests.
He wanted to have the temple

2017
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:46,480
doctrine since he didn't want
all of it, you know, and, and

2018
01:58:46,480 --> 01:58:49,760
similarly, James Strang was,
even though he was not in

2019
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:53,040
Nauvoo, he had a lot of people
who were in Nauvoo kind of join

2020
01:58:53,040 --> 01:58:56,440
with him at different times.
And so he learned a lot of what

2021
01:58:56,440 --> 01:58:59,920
was taught in Nauvoo and his,
you know, in his experience.

2022
01:58:59,920 --> 01:59:03,280
And so they both kind of had
this idea and that I thought was

2023
01:59:03,480 --> 01:59:07,760
very validating to, you know,
the idea of multiple witnesses

2024
01:59:07,760 --> 01:59:10,120
right to this doctrine.
So.

2025
01:59:10,120 --> 01:59:14,840
So this is what Rigdon taught on
April 10th, 1845 to his

2026
01:59:14,840 --> 01:59:17,360
followers.
He said he's Sidney Rigdon spoke

2027
01:59:17,360 --> 01:59:21,080
of baptism for the dead showing
it would was of no avail unless

2028
01:59:21,080 --> 01:59:24,720
the persons being baptized for
the dead should maintain their

2029
01:59:24,720 --> 01:59:28,400
integrity and power before God
until they obtained the

2030
01:59:28,400 --> 01:59:31,800
priesthood of the Kingdom and
through that.

2031
01:59:31,800 --> 01:59:34,040
So, you know, priesthood of the
Kingdom, talking about kings and

2032
01:59:34,040 --> 01:59:37,360
priests, right?
And through that priesthood bear

2033
01:59:37,360 --> 01:59:40,840
off the Kingdom triumphant and
through these means present

2034
01:59:40,840 --> 01:59:43,920
themselves before God triumphant
with their dead with them.

2035
01:59:44,200 --> 01:59:47,640
Unless they did that, they would
be cut off and perish and

2036
01:59:47,640 --> 01:59:50,280
they're dead with them.
So kind of talking about people

2037
01:59:50,280 --> 01:59:54,720
needing to be valiant in the
Kingdom of God in order to, you

2038
01:59:54,720 --> 01:59:58,240
know, have those blessings of
their dead being linked with

2039
01:59:58,240 --> 02:00:01,720
them.
So see that one, I thought, oh,

2040
02:00:01,840 --> 02:00:03,640
go ahead.
Sorry, Jacob, no, you go ahead.

2041
02:00:04,360 --> 02:00:06,000
I.
Was going to say, you know that

2042
02:00:06,520 --> 02:00:09,600
the way that Brigham describes
it, right, that that we just

2043
02:00:09,600 --> 02:00:14,400
laid out here actually is a
second witness.

2044
02:00:14,440 --> 02:00:17,960
There's a there's another
witness to this in a in kind of

2045
02:00:18,160 --> 02:00:22,560
a a separate but related item.
Right I I'd.

2046
02:00:22,560 --> 02:00:25,040
Once read something from Brigham
Young and I haven't been able to

2047
02:00:25,040 --> 02:00:29,000
find it since and I could have.
I know I read this.

2048
02:00:29,000 --> 02:00:31,440
Somewhere but Brigham.
Was basically talking about the

2049
02:00:31,440 --> 02:00:36,080
resurrection as an ordinance and
he said.

2050
02:00:37,200 --> 02:00:40,640
The.
The the sons will call up their

2051
02:00:40,640 --> 02:00:45,680
fathers, right?
And you know if if their if if

2052
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:48,200
you had to do the work for your
kindred dead.

2053
02:00:49,440 --> 02:00:51,320
Let's say it was your father
that passed on.

2054
02:00:51,320 --> 02:00:54,680
Before you it would be.
Your responsibility and right

2055
02:00:54,680 --> 02:00:59,240
within that priesthood ordinance
to call your father forward at

2056
02:00:59,240 --> 02:01:01,520
that time.
And that kind of seems to hold

2057
02:01:01,520 --> 02:01:06,280
water here with how Brigham's
describing this adoption

2058
02:01:06,280 --> 02:01:10,680
ordinance right where where
where the living person is

2059
02:01:10,680 --> 02:01:15,080
sealed into a living line and
then he has his kindred dead

2060
02:01:15,080 --> 02:01:19,320
sealed to him.
Yep, Yep, and and.

2061
02:01:19,400 --> 02:01:24,320
Some, and this is where it makes
sense, where you can continue to

2062
02:01:24,320 --> 02:01:28,760
offer salvation to your family.
You can continue to reach out to

2063
02:01:28,760 --> 02:01:33,480
them and, and continue to offer
them chances to progress in the

2064
02:01:33,480 --> 02:01:37,440
fullness of the gospel because
you have been faithful in the,

2065
02:01:37,480 --> 02:01:41,120
in the Kingdom of God and have
attained to that power and those

2066
02:01:41,120 --> 02:01:44,840
blessings.
And so it's, you know, it, it

2067
02:01:44,840 --> 02:01:49,840
isn't you aren't losing your
family by entering into the

2068
02:01:49,840 --> 02:01:53,720
doctrine, but in fact, you're
gaining more power to link them

2069
02:01:53,720 --> 02:01:57,240
to yourself and to offer
salvation to them.

2070
02:01:57,240 --> 02:02:00,120
You know, it's a very to me,
it's a very beautiful doctrine.

2071
02:02:00,120 --> 02:02:05,800
It makes a lot more sense than
say I'm still if my father's

2072
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:09,960
father was an unrighteous man
and was not worthy of his wife,

2073
02:02:09,960 --> 02:02:13,720
was not worthy of his family, to
think that, yeah, he's going to

2074
02:02:13,720 --> 02:02:16,160
be the one that we're linked to
in the celestial Kingdom that

2075
02:02:16,160 --> 02:02:20,440
doesn't hold a lot of water.
But if you know, if we're

2076
02:02:20,440 --> 02:02:25,120
linking him to us and you know,
we're giving him an opportunity

2077
02:02:25,120 --> 02:02:29,760
to repent and progress, that
makes a lot more sense to me

2078
02:02:30,160 --> 02:02:32,840
and, and, and personally when,
when understanding the, the

2079
02:02:32,840 --> 02:02:36,400
temple doctrines.
So I just wanted to mention the,

2080
02:02:36,400 --> 02:02:39,080
the James Strang quote, just
because we don't just have two

2081
02:02:39,080 --> 02:02:41,600
witnesses, but this will give us
a third witness of it besides

2082
02:02:42,680 --> 02:02:45,240
Brigham.
So in Strang's book of the law

2083
02:02:45,240 --> 02:02:49,640
of the Lord, he put in
instructions on temples, he

2084
02:02:49,640 --> 02:02:52,640
said, quote, but no man or woman
among you shall be baptized for

2085
02:02:52,640 --> 02:02:56,480
the dead who's not a member of
some family according to the

2086
02:02:56,480 --> 02:03:00,040
order of the Church of the first
born of God, or who is under

2087
02:03:00,040 --> 02:03:03,280
condemnation of any word of this
law or withholding anything

2088
02:03:03,280 --> 02:03:06,160
whatsoever from the treasury of
the House of the Lord your God.

2089
02:03:06,680 --> 02:03:10,280
So it kind of mentions that you
you shouldn't do baptism for the

2090
02:03:10,280 --> 02:03:13,920
dead if you're not a member of a
family according to the order of

2091
02:03:13,920 --> 02:03:17,480
the Church of the first born.
And so, you know, Church of the

2092
02:03:17,480 --> 02:03:20,640
first born is kind of a term
that they use in Nauvoo to

2093
02:03:20,640 --> 02:03:23,720
reference these higher temple
organizations.

2094
02:03:24,200 --> 02:03:29,160
So the note to this, and I don't
know if it was Strength's, I

2095
02:03:29,160 --> 02:03:32,240
think it was Strength's personal
note, but I'm not entirely sure.

2096
02:03:32,600 --> 02:03:36,200
But the the note to this was
quote, those who are not regular

2097
02:03:36,200 --> 02:03:39,600
members of any family duly
organized have no place to bring

2098
02:03:39,600 --> 02:03:41,920
those for whom they shall be
baptized.

2099
02:03:42,160 --> 02:03:45,280
They have no home for them to
abide in in everlasting life.

2100
02:03:45,520 --> 02:03:49,560
The chief thing in the salvation
promised in the gospel is in the

2101
02:03:49,560 --> 02:03:52,680
family relation and love of a
holy people.

2102
02:03:52,840 --> 02:03:56,040
Those who lack that relationship
are unsaved themselves and

2103
02:03:56,040 --> 02:03:59,560
unprepared to save others.
So he's saying the ultimate

2104
02:03:59,560 --> 02:04:03,480
salvation in the Kingdom of God
is in the family relation and to

2105
02:04:03,480 --> 02:04:07,000
be, you know, in the family of
the people of God.

2106
02:04:07,000 --> 02:04:10,360
And so that's why he's saying
that's a prerequisite for

2107
02:04:10,360 --> 02:04:13,520
baptism for the dead, so you can
bring them into the family.

2108
02:04:13,720 --> 02:04:18,360
So, you know, I, I think that
that is another compelling, you

2109
02:04:18,360 --> 02:04:23,240
know, witnessing another branch
of the restoration of this

2110
02:04:23,240 --> 02:04:28,560
doctrine.
So you know, and then another.

2111
02:04:28,560 --> 02:04:33,800
Quote just to show how.
Early adoption was being taught

2112
02:04:33,800 --> 02:04:35,920
in connection with work for the
dead.

2113
02:04:36,440 --> 02:04:40,480
William Clayton has a journal
entry for October 1st, 1844

2114
02:04:40,720 --> 02:04:44,240
meeting of the Anointed Quorum
in Nauvoo where he noted, quote,

2115
02:04:44,240 --> 02:04:47,920
a man has a right to be baptized
for his acquaintances who are

2116
02:04:47,920 --> 02:04:51,600
not relatives and sealed to them
only by the consent and

2117
02:04:51,600 --> 02:04:54,080
authority of him who holds the
keys.

2118
02:04:54,400 --> 02:04:57,400
So kind of saying that there's
this regulation going on with

2119
02:04:57,400 --> 02:05:00,640
that, with work for the dead
where they don't want people to

2120
02:05:00,640 --> 02:05:03,320
go too crazy with it.
You know, there's concerns about

2121
02:05:03,320 --> 02:05:08,600
people, you know, trying to just
link whoever to themselves, you

2122
02:05:08,600 --> 02:05:13,000
know, And so you have a, the,
the, the doctrine was that you

2123
02:05:13,000 --> 02:05:16,800
have a right to do the work for
your relatives, for your

2124
02:05:17,080 --> 02:05:20,760
ancestors and their families.
You know, that was what Joseph

2125
02:05:20,760 --> 02:05:24,280
taught for work for anyone else
outside of your family, it

2126
02:05:24,280 --> 02:05:26,360
requires kind of a, a special
permission.

2127
02:05:26,360 --> 02:05:30,840
Otherwise you can get kind of
funky things with people trying

2128
02:05:30,840 --> 02:05:34,680
to, you know, seal like
deceased, famous.

2129
02:05:34,680 --> 02:05:36,680
People to themselves.
Or whatever, you know, kind of

2130
02:05:37,280 --> 02:05:39,800
those those kinds of things.
And you do kind of in early Utah

2131
02:05:40,240 --> 02:05:43,520
see some of that a little bit
where they were like sealing

2132
02:05:43,520 --> 02:05:46,360
like Queens of England to Joseph
Smith, his wives.

2133
02:05:46,360 --> 02:05:48,880
And you're like, is do you think
that's really what what Joseph

2134
02:05:48,880 --> 02:05:51,320
was?
You know, you really want you

2135
02:05:51,320 --> 02:05:54,280
want burden him with all that
English, all all those English

2136
02:05:54,280 --> 02:05:56,960
royalty women.
Right, right.

2137
02:05:57,360 --> 02:05:58,200
Right.
Yeah.

2138
02:05:58,480 --> 02:06:01,200
No, the last thing.
Joseph wants to be keeping track

2139
02:06:01,200 --> 02:06:03,360
of is Prince Harry and Meghan
Markle.

2140
02:06:03,600 --> 02:06:07,400
So I'm saying I I think he's got
bigger fish to fry.

2141
02:06:09,040 --> 02:06:10,880
Yeah.
So you know, so when?

2142
02:06:10,880 --> 02:06:13,760
Adoptions.
In 1890, so we kind of talked,

2143
02:06:13,760 --> 02:06:17,920
but that's kind of a turning
point in the 1890s, like re

2144
02:06:17,920 --> 02:06:21,720
baptism stops being taught in
the 1890s, like, and it's really

2145
02:06:21,720 --> 02:06:26,720
weird where you have articles in
the juvenile instructor teaching

2146
02:06:26,920 --> 02:06:30,800
re baptism as being a standing
ordinance of the gospel for

2147
02:06:30,800 --> 02:06:33,240
anyone who gathers, you know,
you should be re baptized when

2148
02:06:33,240 --> 02:06:36,440
you gather to kind of recommit
yourself to the fullness of the

2149
02:06:36,440 --> 02:06:39,680
gospel.
But then in the, I think it was

2150
02:06:39,680 --> 02:06:44,480
in 1895, if I'm not, if I'm
remembering right, George

2151
02:06:44,520 --> 02:06:47,480
Buchanan has a whole article
saying how re baptism was never

2152
02:06:47,480 --> 02:06:50,440
a principle of the gospel.
It was never, he says it was,

2153
02:06:50,600 --> 02:06:54,960
you know, maybe allowed as a
special permission by prophets,

2154
02:06:54,960 --> 02:06:56,880
but it was never really.
And he tried to.

2155
02:06:57,040 --> 02:06:59,240
I was actually really
disappointed when I saw this

2156
02:06:59,240 --> 02:07:00,840
article.
Like, I want to think highly of

2157
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:04,520
George Buchanan before all the
things he did to be valiant in

2158
02:07:04,520 --> 02:07:06,400
the gospel.
But he wasn't perfect, you know,

2159
02:07:07,120 --> 02:07:11,880
and and and he was kind of
protocorrelation in some ways,

2160
02:07:11,880 --> 02:07:14,880
you know what?
And and so he was trying to make

2161
02:07:14,880 --> 02:07:18,840
it out like re baptism was just
about an external thing where if

2162
02:07:18,840 --> 02:07:21,880
you screw up, you know, it makes
the community be more likely to

2163
02:07:21,880 --> 02:07:26,480
accept you back if you and I'm
like, no, it was not about an

2164
02:07:26,480 --> 02:07:30,720
external social thing.
Brigham, when he talks about re

2165
02:07:30,720 --> 02:07:33,320
baptism, talked about it as an
internal thing.

2166
02:07:33,400 --> 02:07:36,680
You know that you are, you know,
trying to change and you are

2167
02:07:36,680 --> 02:07:39,280
trying to be better, more
valiant in your testimony of

2168
02:07:39,280 --> 02:07:43,800
Christ and be, you know, more,
you know, to to have those

2169
02:07:43,800 --> 02:07:47,080
changes that accepting the
atonement will bring into your

2170
02:07:47,080 --> 02:07:50,440
life.
And so, you know, 1890s are kind

2171
02:07:50,440 --> 02:07:53,160
of a a sad and interesting
period.

2172
02:07:53,160 --> 02:07:57,520
And so one of the things with
the sealing principles that we,

2173
02:07:58,120 --> 02:08:00,920
you know, haven't mentioned is
that with women needing a

2174
02:08:00,920 --> 02:08:05,960
faithful husband, part of that
doctrine was, you know, if your

2175
02:08:06,200 --> 02:08:10,120
husband is, you know, not
somebody who takes the gospel

2176
02:08:10,120 --> 02:08:13,480
seriously.
If you're a woman who's faithful

2177
02:08:13,480 --> 02:08:17,720
in the fullest of the gospel,
you know, that you should have

2178
02:08:17,720 --> 02:08:20,880
somebody that you're sealed to
eternally, even if you have a

2179
02:08:20,960 --> 02:08:24,120
mortal husband who's not in the
gospel.

2180
02:08:24,120 --> 02:08:28,840
So, like the example given is
Benji F Johnson says his mother

2181
02:08:29,080 --> 02:08:31,360
had kind of been been estranged
from his father.

2182
02:08:31,600 --> 02:08:35,600
And so by the suggestion and
counsel of Joseph Smith, she was

2183
02:08:35,600 --> 02:08:39,560
sealed as a plural wife to John
Smith.

2184
02:08:39,560 --> 02:08:42,800
And you have other, you know,
and, and generally they would

2185
02:08:42,800 --> 02:08:45,720
say like, you know, for if
you've got an unbelieving

2186
02:08:45,720 --> 02:08:51,240
husband, the general policy in
the 1880s was you can't really

2187
02:08:51,320 --> 02:08:54,520
get your endowments.
And, and it'd just be an awkward

2188
02:08:54,520 --> 02:08:58,880
family context was kind of what
was, you know, you know, for,

2189
02:08:58,960 --> 02:09:02,760
for a woman with an unbelieving
spouse in the time period.

2190
02:09:02,760 --> 02:09:06,480
But if her husband died, you
know, they said you should have

2191
02:09:06,720 --> 02:09:09,720
somebody that you're linked to,
even if you're like an old lady,

2192
02:09:09,720 --> 02:09:12,840
you should have, you know, a
husband eternally.

2193
02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:14,640
So you could have those, those
blessings.

2194
02:09:14,640 --> 02:09:18,960
And I guess another good example
is Brigham Young sister who she

2195
02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:23,440
had a loving life that wasn't in
the fullness of the gospel, but

2196
02:09:23,640 --> 02:09:25,160
she needed somebody to be sealed
to.

2197
02:09:25,160 --> 02:09:28,560
And so Joseph and she's like,
oh, I'm OK not being sealed.

2198
02:09:28,560 --> 02:09:30,480
I'm OK with just being an Angel
in heaven.

2199
02:09:30,760 --> 02:09:33,080
And then Joseph goes, sister,
you do not know what you are

2200
02:09:33,080 --> 02:09:35,560
saying.
And he he says here, Brother

2201
02:09:35,560 --> 02:09:37,560
Brigham, you seal her to me.
And that's.

2202
02:09:37,560 --> 02:09:39,760
And so Brigham, Brigham is
telling that story and he

2203
02:09:39,760 --> 02:09:41,840
doesn't tell it.
You don't know it's a sister

2204
02:09:41,840 --> 02:09:44,560
until the very end of the story.
He's he's telling it as kind of

2205
02:09:44,560 --> 02:09:47,800
a humorous thing about the
introduction of the plural

2206
02:09:47,800 --> 02:09:50,320
marriage in Nauvoo.
And he says, and that woman was

2207
02:09:50,320 --> 02:09:54,000
my own sister is what he said.
Yeah.

2208
02:09:54,000 --> 02:09:55,800
And so.
You know that that was

2209
02:09:55,800 --> 02:09:57,600
considered.
You know, and so they didn't

2210
02:09:57,600 --> 02:10:03,040
consider it safe for a woman to
be sealed to a husband who

2211
02:10:03,040 --> 02:10:05,120
rejected the fullness of the
gospel.

2212
02:10:05,840 --> 02:10:13,560
So that that that's the other,
you know, another that's another

2213
02:10:13,560 --> 02:10:17,120
aspect to working out the
ceiling lines with people on

2214
02:10:17,120 --> 02:10:18,920
earth.
And so, and the scripture that I

2215
02:10:18,920 --> 02:10:23,240
would point to for a lot of this
is in, in the, in what the

2216
02:10:23,240 --> 02:10:26,080
epistle of John, it says, if we
don't love those people, we do

2217
02:10:26,080 --> 02:10:30,200
know, how can we say we love God
in heaven that we do not know

2218
02:10:30,200 --> 02:10:32,840
that we have not seen.
You know, if we that's the word

2219
02:10:32,840 --> 02:10:35,640
to use, use seen where he says,
if we don't love those who we do

2220
02:10:35,640 --> 02:10:38,520
see, how can we love God who we
have not seen?

2221
02:10:40,200 --> 02:10:44,480
And so the idea was working out
these sealing lines with people

2222
02:10:44,480 --> 02:10:46,800
on earth.
And so a woman should needs to

2223
02:10:46,800 --> 02:10:50,960
be sealed to a man who she has
confidence will be able to be

2224
02:10:50,960 --> 02:10:53,120
exalted.
You know, is, was what was

2225
02:10:53,120 --> 02:10:57,600
understood.
So after the manifesto Brig in

2226
02:10:57,600 --> 02:11:02,120
the 1890s, they kind of said,
you know, they, they started to

2227
02:11:02,120 --> 02:11:06,800
say, well, if a woman wants to
choose, she can choose to be

2228
02:11:07,240 --> 02:11:09,720
sealed to a husband who rejected
the gospel.

2229
02:11:09,720 --> 02:11:13,400
But we don't consider her safe,
you know, we don't consider it a

2230
02:11:13,400 --> 02:11:17,000
safe decision.
So they they open the door

2231
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:20,360
there.
But then they slowly started,

2232
02:11:20,400 --> 02:11:23,560
you know, being more and more OK
with it is what Woodruff says.

2233
02:11:23,560 --> 02:11:28,240
And when Woodruff does away with
adoption at the April 1894

2234
02:11:28,320 --> 02:11:32,320
conference, he also says, and
we're also doing away with this

2235
02:11:32,320 --> 02:11:36,160
thing of, of women needing to be
sailed to a faithful priesthood

2236
02:11:36,160 --> 02:11:39,240
holder that, you know, that that
had accepted the gospel and

2237
02:11:39,240 --> 02:11:43,000
lived it in this life.
So he does, he does away with

2238
02:11:43,000 --> 02:11:45,120
that at the same time.
And he basically says, and I

2239
02:11:45,120 --> 02:11:48,720
kind of started turning against
that a while, You know, I, he

2240
02:11:48,720 --> 02:11:51,360
says, I, I, I, I, I clipped that
one.

2241
02:11:51,360 --> 02:11:53,520
I started clipping that one a
while ago or words to that

2242
02:11:53,520 --> 02:11:56,840
effect when he did away with
adoption.

2243
02:11:56,960 --> 02:12:00,920
And so when we get to the point
where break where Woodruff is

2244
02:12:00,920 --> 02:12:08,520
doing away with adoption.
So, so what's interesting is in

2245
02:12:08,520 --> 02:12:12,440
1890, it was Joseph F Smith that
argued against adoption, but

2246
02:12:12,560 --> 02:12:16,520
George Buchanan still defended
it in 1894.

2247
02:12:16,520 --> 02:12:21,360
In March of 1894 is when George
Buchanan finally just turns

2248
02:12:21,360 --> 02:12:24,200
against it.
And he writes about reject, you

2249
02:12:24,200 --> 02:12:27,600
know, that he thinks that we
need to do something different

2250
02:12:27,600 --> 02:12:31,760
in regards to this.
And so, yeah, yeah, it's only a

2251
02:12:31,760 --> 02:12:36,440
few weeks later that, you know,
Woodruff, you know, conveniently

2252
02:12:36,440 --> 02:12:40,080
gets this revelation to do, to
do away with adoption.

2253
02:12:40,520 --> 02:12:45,040
And it is basically what Joseph
F Smith and George Buchanan were

2254
02:12:45,040 --> 02:12:48,400
wanting him to do.
And I think some important

2255
02:12:48,400 --> 02:12:52,520
context for that time period is
there's a statement by John W

2256
02:12:52,520 --> 02:12:57,760
Taylor in in a in a state
conference, I believe it's

2257
02:12:57,760 --> 02:13:02,760
eighteen, 9/18/95 or 1896.
He kind of says that Wilfred

2258
02:13:02,760 --> 02:13:06,840
Woodruff can no more run this
church than a baby without the

2259
02:13:06,840 --> 02:13:10,480
help of George Buchanan and
Joseph F Smith.

2260
02:13:11,320 --> 02:13:15,840
So he's he's basically kind of
saying that, you know, that

2261
02:13:15,840 --> 02:13:19,320
they're the counselors are kind
of important influences to

2262
02:13:19,320 --> 02:13:22,200
running the show.
You know that it's he's not

2263
02:13:22,200 --> 02:13:28,000
really in, he's almost kind of
saying that he that in some ways

2264
02:13:28,000 --> 02:13:34,320
that Woodruff is kind of not
fully capacitated to be running

2265
02:13:34,320 --> 02:13:36,160
the church without their
support.

2266
02:13:36,160 --> 02:13:37,920
But he's all, you know, he's
he's kind of.

2267
02:13:40,360 --> 02:13:43,040
And So what Abraham Cannon kind
of wrote about that is he felt

2268
02:13:43,040 --> 02:13:47,000
that Joseph F Smith was trying
to, excuse me, not Joseph

2269
02:13:47,000 --> 02:13:50,320
Westman.
John W Taylor was trying to talk

2270
02:13:50,320 --> 02:13:53,280
about the importance of
counselors, but it came across

2271
02:13:53,280 --> 02:13:58,840
more as saying that Woodruff was
not very capable of running the

2272
02:13:58,840 --> 02:14:01,520
church and what he said.
But, you know, it's interesting

2273
02:14:01,520 --> 02:14:04,880
that those counselors that, you
know, turning against it, that

2274
02:14:05,520 --> 02:14:11,960
you know, led to Woodruff also
turning, turning away from it.

2275
02:14:12,520 --> 02:14:16,640
And Woodruff kind of in a
private meeting of church

2276
02:14:16,640 --> 02:14:21,480
leaders kind of throws previous
leaders under the bus in some

2277
02:14:21,480 --> 02:14:23,640
ways.
So in the in the conference

2278
02:14:23,640 --> 02:14:27,160
address announcing it, he
doesn't really try to do it.

2279
02:14:27,160 --> 02:14:28,640
He says, oh, they didn't
understand it.

2280
02:14:28,640 --> 02:14:32,440
They said they didn't under.
So in the the meeting of church

2281
02:14:32,440 --> 02:14:35,880
leaders, he kind of says, we
are, we are.

2282
02:14:35,880 --> 02:14:39,520
We have more knowledge now, like
we know better than what was

2283
02:14:40,120 --> 02:14:43,600
known before.
You know, he's.

2284
02:14:44,680 --> 02:14:46,800
Yeah.
And it's kind of, you know, for

2285
02:14:46,800 --> 02:14:51,320
me, it kind of puts a bad taste
in my mouth, my, my, my mouth to

2286
02:14:51,320 --> 02:14:53,800
hear this.
So this is actually John M

2287
02:14:53,800 --> 02:15:00,240
Whitaker's diary where he says,
he says President Woodruff.

2288
02:15:00,240 --> 02:15:09,320
So this is April 5th, 1894.
He says President Woodruff spoke

2289
02:15:09,320 --> 02:15:10,720
on temple work explained to the
past.

2290
02:15:10,720 --> 02:15:13,000
Many prominent people have been
sealed to the Prophet Joseph

2291
02:15:13,000 --> 02:15:14,960
Smith, disregarding their
parents.

2292
02:15:14,960 --> 02:15:17,600
They were so anxious to be near
the Prophet and neglecting their

2293
02:15:17,600 --> 02:15:19,640
own lines.
He said he had a revelation

2294
02:15:19,640 --> 02:15:22,240
saying this was all wrong and
such sealings were not right.

2295
02:15:22,480 --> 02:15:25,400
It would all have to be done
over again and we can't

2296
02:15:25,400 --> 02:15:28,200
disregard our own progenitors.
But all ceilings must be done in

2297
02:15:28,200 --> 02:15:31,240
the proper way.
And he said that the Lord had

2298
02:15:31,240 --> 02:15:33,800
revealed to them that here,
after all, ceilings must

2299
02:15:33,800 --> 02:15:38,520
conformed to the new information
in the past, such in some

2300
02:15:38,520 --> 02:15:41,880
instances we have not understood
clearly and the former

2301
02:15:41,880 --> 02:15:44,600
presidents of the church have
not fully and clearly

2302
02:15:44,600 --> 02:15:49,720
understood.
And and so he basically says

2303
02:15:49,840 --> 02:15:53,080
what Woodruff says.
If you come to a murderer in

2304
02:15:53,080 --> 02:15:58,080
your family line to skip over
the murderer and and just seal

2305
02:15:58,080 --> 02:16:01,600
back, you know, as far as you
can and then seal the last one

2306
02:16:01,600 --> 02:16:04,640
to Joseph Smith.
So there still was part of the

2307
02:16:04,640 --> 02:16:09,080
law of adoption and sealing the
last one to Joseph Smith when

2308
02:16:09,080 --> 02:16:14,680
they did away with it, but even
that gets dropped later.

2309
02:16:14,680 --> 02:16:16,960
On we'll kind of talk about.
That in a in a minute.

2310
02:16:17,320 --> 02:16:22,160
But the big example that he uses
to argue against adoption

2311
02:16:22,160 --> 02:16:26,080
ceilings is he says you never
know what a man will do like and

2312
02:16:26,080 --> 02:16:27,840
he uses John D Lee as an
example.

2313
02:16:27,840 --> 02:16:31,320
He says not a lot of people in
Nauvoo were adopted to John D

2314
02:16:31,320 --> 02:16:33,000
Lee.
And look what he did.

2315
02:16:33,000 --> 02:16:35,639
You know, he's he was involved
with that heinous crime of the

2316
02:16:35,639 --> 02:16:38,920
Mountain Meadows massacre.
And so if they're linked to him,

2317
02:16:39,160 --> 02:16:41,879
they'll have to go where he is.
They'll have to go to go to hell

2318
02:16:41,879 --> 02:16:45,120
with them, you know.
And so we shouldn't be sealed to

2319
02:16:45,120 --> 02:16:47,480
a man because you never know
what he will do.

2320
02:16:48,160 --> 02:16:52,719
But that kind of logic doesn't
make a whole lot of sense to me

2321
02:16:52,719 --> 02:16:56,719
because what you're going
instead be sealed to somebody

2322
02:16:56,719 --> 02:16:59,840
who's never had the gospel.
And you also don't know whether

2323
02:16:59,840 --> 02:17:02,200
they would be valiant in the
fullness of the gospel.

2324
02:17:02,639 --> 02:17:06,080
So we're not going to be sealed
to men who we do know because

2325
02:17:06,080 --> 02:17:08,719
you don't know what we what
they'll do, but we'll be sealed

2326
02:17:08,719 --> 02:17:12,840
to men we don't know yet.
You know, it doesn't really make

2327
02:17:12,840 --> 02:17:17,799
a whole lot of sense.
And what's interesting is

2328
02:17:17,799 --> 02:17:21,879
Woodruff kind of writes in his
journal that he had this

2329
02:17:21,879 --> 02:17:26,520
revelation on on adoption.
And I actually included this in

2330
02:17:26,639 --> 02:17:30,400
a paper that I did on kind of
giving a brief kind of history

2331
02:17:30,760 --> 02:17:34,480
of the law of adoption.
You might be able to see it on

2332
02:17:34,480 --> 02:17:39,879
your screen.
Let me unblur my screen so.

2333
02:17:41,080 --> 02:17:44,120
Woodruff's writing.
Saying I had a this revelate

2334
02:17:44,120 --> 02:17:46,879
this is so he's saying I've
received the following

2335
02:17:46,879 --> 02:17:52,879
revelation on the law of
adoption and then just blank for

2336
02:17:53,200 --> 02:17:55,959
a page and a, you know, half a
page on one page, half a page on

2337
02:17:55,959 --> 02:17:58,280
the other page, and then he
continues to the next day's

2338
02:17:58,280 --> 02:18:00,280
entry.
So it's kind of interesting.

2339
02:18:00,280 --> 02:18:03,400
He says I had a revelation doing
away with the, you know, to

2340
02:18:04,320 --> 02:18:09,280
correcting the law of adoption,
but he never actually, he never

2341
02:18:09,280 --> 02:18:13,639
write anything down.
Yeah, so that's kind, I thought.

2342
02:18:13,639 --> 02:18:19,040
That was kind of significant,
that is, yeah, that was in a.

2343
02:18:19,639 --> 02:18:21,959
Paper I wrote called the.
Kingdom of God in a family

2344
02:18:21,959 --> 02:18:24,520
capacity.
OK, I'm asking a real pointed

2345
02:18:24,520 --> 02:18:26,639
question here.
Do you take?

2346
02:18:26,639 --> 02:18:31,520
That then that that Wilford was
lying about that, I think he

2347
02:18:31,520 --> 02:18:33,799
might have felt impressed.
You know that he might.

2348
02:18:33,799 --> 02:18:37,879
Have felt genuine that he, I
mean he kind of so he's very

2349
02:18:37,879 --> 02:18:44,040
similar with George Buchanan.
He does the work for so he's

2350
02:18:44,040 --> 02:18:49,240
doing his father was in the
church and he initially his

2351
02:18:49,240 --> 02:18:52,680
father was in the church but
died before the endowments is

2352
02:18:52,680 --> 02:18:55,080
kind of his story.
But his father was a faithful

2353
02:18:55,080 --> 02:18:56,680
patriarch.
And so he does the work for his

2354
02:18:56,680 --> 02:19:00,360
father and initially seals
himself to his father and then

2355
02:19:00,360 --> 02:19:02,240
seals his father to Joseph
Smith.

2356
02:19:02,879 --> 02:19:06,799
But then as he's doing work for
his other ancestors, he says he

2357
02:19:06,840 --> 02:19:09,639
then, you know, very similar to
Canon, I think, where he's

2358
02:19:09,879 --> 02:19:11,760
feeling the spirit, you know,
he's feeling like they're

2359
02:19:11,760 --> 02:19:15,879
accepting the ordinances.
And so he's kind of, I think in

2360
02:19:15,879 --> 02:19:20,520
my opinion, mistaking that as,
Oh, I should be sealed to them

2361
02:19:20,840 --> 02:19:25,520
instead of them be sealed to me
and, and to our family line.

2362
02:19:25,520 --> 02:19:30,160
You know, so I, I think that
there's, you know, I think it's

2363
02:19:30,160 --> 02:19:33,480
part of that natural
inclination.

2364
02:19:33,480 --> 02:19:37,000
And I, I do think they tried to
use the electioneering as an

2365
02:19:37,000 --> 02:19:39,719
excuse, you know, to do away
with it.

2366
02:19:39,719 --> 02:19:42,639
I, I think they, I think there
were concerns, there were valid

2367
02:19:42,639 --> 02:19:46,160
concerns about people who were
working in the temples, like

2368
02:19:46,959 --> 02:19:50,360
potentially electioneering or,
you know, trying to use their

2369
02:19:50,360 --> 02:19:53,160
position to say, Hey, you know,
you need your, to be sealed to

2370
02:19:53,160 --> 02:19:54,680
someone, you should be sealed to
me.

2371
02:19:55,280 --> 02:19:58,560
And I think those are valid
concerns.

2372
02:19:59,200 --> 02:20:01,600
But we.
There's better ways to deal with

2373
02:20:01,600 --> 02:20:06,080
them than to do away with the
sealing principles as Joseph and

2374
02:20:06,080 --> 02:20:07,600
Brigham taught them in my
opinion.

2375
02:20:08,440 --> 02:20:14,360
So 100% right and and look.
I'm usually really really.

2376
02:20:14,360 --> 02:20:17,240
Sympathetic.
And charitable towards

2377
02:20:17,240 --> 02:20:19,600
historical, historic figures,
right?

2378
02:20:20,120 --> 02:20:24,080
Because we can read about their
times and circumstances and get

2379
02:20:24,080 --> 02:20:28,200
a real good feel for what they
were going through.

2380
02:20:28,200 --> 02:20:32,880
But we'll never truly know right
now, having said that, I think

2381
02:20:33,440 --> 02:20:36,680
with the benefit of time, we can
look back on this and see the

2382
02:20:36,680 --> 02:20:39,520
folly, right?
And interestingly enough, this

2383
02:20:39,520 --> 02:20:42,560
isn't a folly that's over by any
stretch of the imagination.

2384
02:20:43,520 --> 02:20:46,880
One of the things when I left
the LDS Church and I talked to

2385
02:20:46,880 --> 02:20:54,520
my stake president, who was a he
worked for Bonneville

2386
02:20:54,520 --> 02:20:57,960
Communications, either the stake
president or one of his

2387
02:20:57,960 --> 02:20:58,560
counselors.
I can't.

2388
02:20:58,560 --> 02:21:02,920
Remember.
But I had made mention that I

2389
02:21:02,920 --> 02:21:06,360
was disturbed by the removal of
a covenant between husband and

2390
02:21:06,360 --> 02:21:12,200
wife in the temple and he said.
Oh I I can answer.

2391
02:21:12,200 --> 02:21:15,640
This one for you, because I have
I, I have to go have meetings

2392
02:21:15,640 --> 02:21:17,400
with certain members of the 12,
he said.

2393
02:21:17,800 --> 02:21:21,000
For the first time ever, there's
more women than or excuse me,

2394
02:21:21,000 --> 02:21:24,360
there's more single people then
married people in the temple.

2395
02:21:24,360 --> 02:21:27,040
So we felt like it was
appropriate to make that change

2396
02:21:27,760 --> 02:21:30,960
to the covenants.
And I asked him, I said, so if

2397
02:21:30,960 --> 02:21:34,200
everybody was having a hard time
living, you know, if everyone

2398
02:21:34,200 --> 02:21:38,080
was having a hard time not not
screwing around, would you get

2399
02:21:38,080 --> 02:21:43,440
rid of the law of chastity?
And he just kind of stopped for

2400
02:21:43,440 --> 02:21:46,160
a second and looked at me.
And at that point the meeting

2401
02:21:46,160 --> 02:21:49,400
was pretty much over.
But this is still a pattern,

2402
02:21:49,400 --> 02:21:52,960
right?
Like I don't want to interrupt

2403
02:21:52,960 --> 02:21:54,240
you too, but I.
I believe you.

2404
02:21:54,560 --> 02:21:57,360
You told me the story before and
you did you say you asked,

2405
02:21:57,760 --> 02:22:01,920
didn't he say something about
being concerned about like men

2406
02:22:01,920 --> 02:22:04,920
would use the covenant as an
excuse to abuse their wives?

2407
02:22:04,960 --> 02:22:06,800
That was one of the things he
talked about.

2408
02:22:06,800 --> 02:22:08,000
Yep.
Is that?

2409
02:22:08,360 --> 02:22:10,760
It it would lead to A to abuse,
right?

2410
02:22:10,760 --> 02:22:13,400
That there was instances where
men weren't as good to their

2411
02:22:13,400 --> 02:22:14,760
wives as what they should have
been.

2412
02:22:15,280 --> 02:22:18,920
And then that there were more
married people, I mean, more

2413
02:22:18,920 --> 02:22:21,040
single people than married
people in the temple.

2414
02:22:21,040 --> 02:22:22,680
And for those reasons they took
it out.

2415
02:22:24,640 --> 02:22:27,520
And again I.
My my contention is this.

2416
02:22:28,320 --> 02:22:33,160
If, if someone had a hard time
living a chaste life, that's not

2417
02:22:33,160 --> 02:22:35,280
a lot to get rid, that's not a
reason to get rid of the

2418
02:22:35,280 --> 02:22:41,440
covenant of, of chastity, right?
It, it's, it's stupid, but yet

2419
02:22:41,440 --> 02:22:45,560
it's still continuing.
And unfortunately what we see

2420
02:22:45,560 --> 02:22:50,520
here is that there really is no
staying static in the gospel.

2421
02:22:50,520 --> 02:22:52,200
You're either going to move
forward or you're going to move

2422
02:22:52,200 --> 02:22:54,680
backwards.
You're either going to increase

2423
02:22:54,680 --> 02:23:01,520
in knowledge and in in testimony
and in faith, or that's going to

2424
02:23:01,520 --> 02:23:03,840
atrophy.
There's no standing static.

2425
02:23:04,680 --> 02:23:06,720
At some point you've got to
start moving.

2426
02:23:06,720 --> 02:23:11,320
And if you aren't intentional
about moving forward, you.

2427
02:23:11,320 --> 02:23:12,600
Will move.
Backwards.

2428
02:23:15,440 --> 02:23:19,640
Amen.
Yeah, and So what what my kind

2429
02:23:19,640 --> 02:23:22,680
of thought was, you know,
telling we're, you know, the

2430
02:23:22,680 --> 02:23:27,520
seeds of a lot of the problems
with things being rejected.

2431
02:23:27,520 --> 02:23:31,920
It's kind of start with Woodruff
and then under Hebrew J Grant,

2432
02:23:32,240 --> 02:23:37,280
it's you know, you dial it up
10, right.

2433
02:23:37,280 --> 02:23:40,080
It's just goes, you know,
astronomical.

2434
02:23:40,080 --> 02:23:43,080
So Woodruff, when they're doing
away with adoption, they're

2435
02:23:43,080 --> 02:23:49,440
still saying seal the last one
to Joseph Smith twice in his

2436
02:23:49,680 --> 02:23:52,480
discourse.
He's saying trace your family

2437
02:23:52,480 --> 02:23:56,280
lines as far back as you can.
Well, when you get to the end,

2438
02:23:56,280 --> 02:24:00,280
let the last man be adopted to
Joseph Smith, who stands at the

2439
02:24:00,280 --> 02:24:03,920
head of the dispensation.
And so then later on in this

2440
02:24:03,920 --> 02:24:07,200
course, he says when you get to
the last man in the lineage, as

2441
02:24:07,200 --> 02:24:10,600
I said before, he'll adopt that
man to the Prophet Joseph.

2442
02:24:10,640 --> 02:24:14,400
And then the Prophet Joseph will
take care of himself with regard

2443
02:24:14,400 --> 02:24:17,440
to where he goes.
So he mentions that in the

2444
02:24:17,440 --> 02:24:21,200
George Buchanan gives a sermon
after him kind of reiterating

2445
02:24:21,200 --> 02:24:26,720
the same thing.
And then he says, you know, you

2446
02:24:26,720 --> 02:24:31,160
know, So he goes on, he says
we'll be sealed to them and

2447
02:24:31,160 --> 02:24:33,200
they're the lineage will be
connected.

2448
02:24:33,440 --> 02:24:38,840
So let's see, there's no doubt
in my mind that so they're

2449
02:24:38,840 --> 02:24:41,880
they're trying to say that, you
know, they think that Joseph

2450
02:24:41,880 --> 02:24:43,920
Smith should be sealed to his
own father.

2451
02:24:44,400 --> 02:24:46,360
And and well, I mean, first
Woodruff kind of asked the

2452
02:24:46,360 --> 02:24:48,560
question.
He said, would it take away any

2453
02:24:48,560 --> 02:24:52,760
of Joseph's glory if he's sealed
to his father's kind of what he

2454
02:24:52,760 --> 02:24:56,960
uses as an argument to seal
yourself to your ancestors kind

2455
02:24:56,960 --> 02:25:00,120
of thing.
And so then Canon kind of states

2456
02:25:00,120 --> 02:25:04,560
a bit more authoritatively where
he says, there's no doubt in my

2457
02:25:04,560 --> 02:25:07,200
mind that the Prophet Joseph
would be sealed to his father.

2458
02:25:07,600 --> 02:25:09,320
He will honor his father and
mother.

2459
02:25:09,320 --> 02:25:12,640
We will be sealed to them and
they and their lineage will

2460
02:25:12,640 --> 02:25:15,320
doubtlessly be connected with
him by the ceiling ordinance as

2461
02:25:15,320 --> 02:25:18,680
the head of this dispensation.
They will have to be connected

2462
02:25:18,680 --> 02:25:21,800
within him by some link or bond
that will be created if it

2463
02:25:21,800 --> 02:25:23,960
doesn't already exist as we all
be connected.

2464
02:25:24,160 --> 02:25:26,200
So he's kind of self
contradicting because he's

2465
02:25:26,200 --> 02:25:28,680
saying we're all being linked to
back to Joseph Smith.

2466
02:25:29,200 --> 02:25:31,440
So he's saying we're stealing
ourselves to our lines, but

2467
02:25:31,440 --> 02:25:33,920
we're all being linked back to
Joseph Smith.

2468
02:25:33,920 --> 02:25:36,360
But how is that working if
you're doing away with adoption?

2469
02:25:36,880 --> 02:25:41,000
So he says well, but as a.
Oh, go ahead.

2470
02:25:41,000 --> 02:25:44,200
Sorry.
So I guess.

2471
02:25:44,560 --> 02:25:48,120
I'll, I'll finish that quote
where he said he says we will

2472
02:25:48,120 --> 02:25:50,680
all be connected with him
because he is the head of the

2473
02:25:50,680 --> 02:25:53,440
dispensation.
But as a son he will be honored

2474
02:25:53,440 --> 02:25:56,200
by his ancestry and all who come
within the range under the

2475
02:25:56,200 --> 02:25:57,840
jurisdiction of this
dispensation.

2476
02:25:58,360 --> 02:26:01,240
All such will necessarily be
sealed by some bond to the

2477
02:26:01,240 --> 02:26:03,800
Prophet Joseph.
In this way, we shall all be

2478
02:26:03,800 --> 02:26:06,120
united and there can be no
question on our part as the

2479
02:26:06,120 --> 02:26:09,440
propriety of all being, of being
all connected with Joseph

2480
02:26:09,720 --> 02:26:12,680
carrying up every lineage
directly as far as we can and

2481
02:26:12,680 --> 02:26:16,080
then linking them on to the head
of the dispensation.

2482
02:26:16,400 --> 02:26:19,000
So there's something
contradictory there where he's

2483
02:26:19,000 --> 02:26:22,320
talking about, you know,
Joseph's going to be sealed

2484
02:26:22,320 --> 02:26:23,320
back.
We're all going to be sealed

2485
02:26:23,320 --> 02:26:24,560
back.
But then we're all needing to be

2486
02:26:24,560 --> 02:26:27,520
linked to Joseph anyway.
So he's, you know, kind.

2487
02:26:27,520 --> 02:26:32,800
There's a kind of a, a self a
conundrum at least about, you

2488
02:26:32,800 --> 02:26:36,520
know, how they're teaching it
and kind of Woodruff.

2489
02:26:36,520 --> 02:26:39,320
There's a conundrum in how he's
explaining it where he says,

2490
02:26:40,600 --> 02:26:44,400
will it take any glory from you
if you're sealed to your

2491
02:26:44,400 --> 02:26:47,520
ancestors who have not held the
authority in the of the

2492
02:26:47,520 --> 02:26:51,160
priesthood that you've held?
And you know, he says you will

2493
02:26:51,160 --> 02:26:55,680
still have that.
You know that you know that you

2494
02:26:55,680 --> 02:26:59,840
know that position and that
honor as their their savior kind

2495
02:26:59,840 --> 02:27:02,600
of thing.
And it's like you're kind of

2496
02:27:02,640 --> 02:27:05,040
contradicting, you know, the two
different things.

2497
02:27:05,040 --> 02:27:07,080
You're, you're, you know,
there's kind of a self

2498
02:27:07,080 --> 02:27:09,640
contradiction there and you kind
of see it.

2499
02:27:09,720 --> 02:27:15,520
There's somebody recently shared
a picture that I, you know,

2500
02:27:15,520 --> 02:27:22,080
thought was kind of interesting,
a quote by, by Woodruff about

2501
02:27:22,080 --> 02:27:29,040
work for the dead and in in 1898
where he said, quote, every

2502
02:27:29,040 --> 02:27:32,240
father and mother is a great
responsibility resting upon them

2503
02:27:32,240 --> 02:27:35,640
to redeem their dead.
Do not neglect it When you get

2504
02:27:35,640 --> 02:27:38,000
to the other side of the veil.
If you have entered into these

2505
02:27:38,000 --> 02:27:40,720
temples and redeemed your
progenitors by the ordinance of

2506
02:27:40,720 --> 02:27:44,240
the House of God, you will hold
the keys of their redemption

2507
02:27:44,240 --> 02:27:48,600
from eternity to eternity.
Do not forget, do not neglect

2508
02:27:48,600 --> 02:27:50,840
this.
And so it's like, that's

2509
02:27:50,840 --> 02:27:53,360
sounding like you're saying that
you preside over them if you're

2510
02:27:53,360 --> 02:27:56,800
holding the keys of their
redemption to eternity after

2511
02:27:56,800 --> 02:28:01,080
performing their ordinance work.
And so I shared that quote with

2512
02:28:01,080 --> 02:28:04,480
a friend after I I saw that, I
was like, wow, that's sounding

2513
02:28:04,480 --> 02:28:07,080
more like the pre 1894
ordinance.

2514
02:28:07,400 --> 02:28:11,560
And he says, man, living in the
1890s would have been a very

2515
02:28:11,560 --> 02:28:13,720
confusing time period.
Kidding.

2516
02:28:15,440 --> 02:28:17,560
Yeah.
So.

2517
02:28:18,000 --> 02:28:21,120
You know, and it's just kind of,
you know, I think the confusion

2518
02:28:21,120 --> 02:28:25,640
really results from, you know,
people, you know, when you start

2519
02:28:25,800 --> 02:28:29,080
to reject, you know,
commandments that the Lord

2520
02:28:29,080 --> 02:28:31,640
gives, when you start to reject
revelations, when the Lord

2521
02:28:31,640 --> 02:28:35,960
speaks, you're opening yourself
up to deception, You're opening

2522
02:28:35,960 --> 02:28:39,920
yourself up to confusion, You
know, by, you know, if you lose

2523
02:28:39,920 --> 02:28:43,840
the spirit, you know, by, you
know, an implicit disobedience,

2524
02:28:43,840 --> 02:28:48,240
by the Lord says to do one thing
and you choose to go the

2525
02:28:48,240 --> 02:28:52,720
opposite direction, you're way
more likely to get confused.

2526
02:28:52,720 --> 02:28:56,680
And that's kind of what I really
think happened with the 1890

2527
02:28:56,680 --> 02:28:58,920
manifesto was I don't think they
were bad intention.

2528
02:28:59,120 --> 02:29:02,320
I don't think they were evil.
I think that they got confused

2529
02:29:02,320 --> 02:29:07,080
is really the best, you know,
most charitable way to put, you

2530
02:29:07,080 --> 02:29:09,320
know, what happened in the mid
1890s.

2531
02:29:09,840 --> 02:29:14,120
You know, we can see this in
microcosm with just the temple

2532
02:29:14,120 --> 02:29:15,760
endowment.
Itself, right.

2533
02:29:16,440 --> 02:29:19,080
Someone once asked me why I
thought it was that there are so

2534
02:29:19,080 --> 02:29:22,680
many changes to the ordinance.
And I said, well, because the

2535
02:29:22,680 --> 02:29:25,520
ordinance, the ordinances build
on themselves.

2536
02:29:26,200 --> 02:29:29,520
So if, if as you're going
through that ordinance, if you

2537
02:29:29,520 --> 02:29:33,440
change one thing, you may not be
fully aware of what the

2538
02:29:33,440 --> 02:29:35,840
downstream consequences are,
right?

2539
02:29:36,240 --> 02:29:40,560
And what, what my sense is, is I
look at all the temple changes

2540
02:29:40,560 --> 02:29:44,520
happening is that you're, you're
always chasing it, right?

2541
02:29:44,800 --> 02:29:47,560
OK, well, if we get rid of this,
oh, look, that we're going to

2542
02:29:47,560 --> 02:29:49,080
have to get rid of that now,
right?

2543
02:29:49,080 --> 02:29:51,840
Or else that doesn't make sense
and it doesn't flow right.

2544
02:29:52,280 --> 02:29:56,680
And, and so we can see this in,
in microcosm within the temple

2545
02:29:56,680 --> 02:30:00,160
ordinance itself, that once you
start changing it, you're always

2546
02:30:00,160 --> 02:30:02,920
chasing it from that point
forward to try to make it right

2547
02:30:02,920 --> 02:30:06,520
again.
And I, I think we're seeing it

2548
02:30:07,080 --> 02:30:12,440
on the macro here with, with the
whole gospel right in that if

2549
02:30:12,440 --> 02:30:15,600
you get rid of one thing, you
are going to chase something

2550
02:30:15,600 --> 02:30:18,760
else.
And confusion lies at the door

2551
02:30:18,760 --> 02:30:21,840
at that point.
And any semblance that you had

2552
02:30:22,400 --> 02:30:25,760
of, of bringing order out of
chaos that Joseph presented to

2553
02:30:25,760 --> 02:30:29,840
us through, through, through the
impartation of that knowledge of

2554
02:30:29,840 --> 02:30:34,560
God, it will become confusing to
everyone else as well.

2555
02:30:35,000 --> 02:30:41,440
And that's always my, my, the
song that I sing when someone

2556
02:30:41,440 --> 02:30:43,120
says, you know, maybe we should
change this.

2557
02:30:43,120 --> 02:30:45,360
I'm like, well, have we thought
about the unintended

2558
02:30:45,360 --> 02:30:48,920
consequences three steps down
the road?

2559
02:30:49,320 --> 02:30:52,040
Because if not, you shouldn't
change it.

2560
02:30:54,280 --> 02:30:55,560
Yep, Yep.
Amen.

2561
02:30:55,680 --> 02:30:59,080
I I think that you need.
To be very cautious when you're

2562
02:30:59,080 --> 02:31:05,240
talking about, you know, and,
and really it's, you know, some

2563
02:31:05,240 --> 02:31:07,560
of the first changes to the
endowment.

2564
02:31:07,560 --> 02:31:12,720
I think we're very mundane.
Like, you know, Woodruff

2565
02:31:12,720 --> 02:31:16,480
actually kind of started doing
very slight small changes in the

2566
02:31:16,520 --> 02:31:19,960
1890s.
And then then Grant, you know, I

2567
02:31:19,960 --> 02:31:23,160
mean, Joseph F Smith then
starts, you know, he removes the

2568
02:31:23,160 --> 02:31:25,760
lecture at the veil in the early
1900s.

2569
02:31:25,760 --> 02:31:30,640
And then Grant goes bigger and
it just kind of, it's a snowball

2570
02:31:30,640 --> 02:31:37,000
effect of, of changing things.
And it's, you know, it's, you

2571
02:31:37,000 --> 02:31:40,720
lose blessings when you take
away, you know, knowledge and,

2572
02:31:40,720 --> 02:31:42,360
and the principles of the
gospel.

2573
02:31:42,680 --> 02:31:45,960
Absolutely the way to put it.
And so what's interesting with

2574
02:31:45,960 --> 02:31:51,160
Grant is so we read those quotes
from I, I specifically read

2575
02:31:51,160 --> 02:31:54,360
those quotes from Woodruff and
George Buchanan's discourses

2576
02:31:54,360 --> 02:31:57,560
about how they're going to seal
the last one to Joseph Smith.

2577
02:31:58,240 --> 02:32:01,680
And so, you know, I think that's
interesting that they've still

2578
02:32:01,680 --> 02:32:05,040
kind of knew that there needed
to be some sort of adoption

2579
02:32:05,360 --> 02:32:07,120
going on.
You know, they, they knew that

2580
02:32:07,120 --> 02:32:09,920
something need to go on there.
But what's interesting is by the

2581
02:32:09,920 --> 02:32:14,680
time the 1920s roll around and
Heber J Grants, the president of

2582
02:32:14,680 --> 02:32:18,600
the Church, when those
discourses by Wilfred Woodruff

2583
02:32:19,040 --> 02:32:25,320
and George Buchanan are
reprinted in the 1920s, they

2584
02:32:25,440 --> 02:32:30,720
deliberately ellipse out those
parts of the discourses about

2585
02:32:30,720 --> 02:32:32,640
stealing the last one to Joseph
Smith.

2586
02:32:32,640 --> 02:32:35,400
They they lips out, too.
I initially thought it was just

2587
02:32:35,400 --> 02:32:37,000
one comment in Woodruff's
discourse.

2588
02:32:37,000 --> 02:32:40,960
And I was reading through it in
the, you know, in the what, what

2589
02:32:40,960 --> 02:32:44,320
magazine?
It was the Utah Genealogical and

2590
02:32:44,320 --> 02:32:47,160
Historical Magazine.
And I was reading through it and

2591
02:32:47,160 --> 02:32:49,320
I realized, wait, there's
another part that's ellipsed

2592
02:32:49,320 --> 02:32:51,240
out.
Let me go back to the millennial

2593
02:32:51,240 --> 02:32:53,520
star and see what was what was
removed.

2594
02:32:53,840 --> 02:32:55,680
And I, I saw it was another
reference to it.

2595
02:32:55,680 --> 02:32:59,720
And I was like, oh, that's,
that's a bit more, you know,

2596
02:32:59,720 --> 02:33:03,320
there's something if you're
ellipsing multiple thing

2597
02:33:03,360 --> 02:33:07,800
references to the same thing.
And then that more recently, I

2598
02:33:07,800 --> 02:33:12,920
read George Buchanan's sermon,
and I noticed that there was a

2599
02:33:12,920 --> 02:33:16,480
big part, you know, there's dot,
dot .3 ellipses right in the

2600
02:33:16,480 --> 02:33:18,320
discourse.
I'm like, well, I better go back

2601
02:33:18,320 --> 02:33:20,400
to the original.
And, And sure enough, it's him

2602
02:33:20,400 --> 02:33:24,480
saying the same thing even, you
know, several sentences being

2603
02:33:24,480 --> 02:33:28,120
ellipsed out in his.
And I think if you were, you

2604
02:33:28,120 --> 02:33:32,160
know, honest about it, you would
admit what they believed.

2605
02:33:32,160 --> 02:33:36,640
And, you know, could Hebrew, Jay
Grant just be bold enough to

2606
02:33:36,640 --> 02:33:40,880
say, yeah, Woodruff and George
Buchanan didn't quite have it

2607
02:33:40,880 --> 02:33:43,600
figured out, but now we now we
have it figured out.

2608
02:33:43,600 --> 02:33:46,040
We don't need to do that.
Steal the last one to Joseph.

2609
02:33:46,040 --> 02:33:50,760
You know, we, we, you know, they
were just, you know, confused.

2610
02:33:50,760 --> 02:33:54,080
And and finally, you know, we've
we've got the temple figured

2611
02:33:54,080 --> 02:33:56,680
out.
You know, it's kind of, well, I,

2612
02:33:56,960 --> 02:33:59,920
you know, if they were bold
enough to say that, you know,

2613
02:34:00,200 --> 02:34:04,080
right.
And so it's interesting is

2614
02:34:04,360 --> 02:34:06,600
that's not the only thing that I
noticed.

2615
02:34:06,800 --> 02:34:12,920
That was kind of ellipsed out.
Is that Brigham so?

2616
02:34:12,960 --> 02:34:17,560
So in the also in the Utah
Genealogical and Historical

2617
02:34:17,560 --> 02:34:21,600
Magazine, they printed a
discourse that Brigham gave.

2618
02:34:22,000 --> 02:34:25,480
It was a family meeting in
Nauvoo in January of 1845.

2619
02:34:26,040 --> 02:34:29,160
And this is a very important
discourse because Brigham's

2620
02:34:29,160 --> 02:34:31,680
talking about the, you know,
that there's this new order of

2621
02:34:31,680 --> 02:34:35,120
the Kingdom of God that the
Saints aren't really familiar

2622
02:34:35,120 --> 02:34:39,040
with yet.
And he says that, you know,

2623
02:34:39,040 --> 02:34:42,480
don't be startled.
I mean, well, before I get to

2624
02:34:42,480 --> 02:34:47,480
that, the comment that was
removed, before I get to the

2625
02:34:47,480 --> 02:34:48,680
comment that was removed, he
talks.

2626
02:34:48,680 --> 02:34:49,520
About.
You know that.

2627
02:34:49,520 --> 02:34:52,800
This is going to be a family
order where men will rise up as

2628
02:34:52,800 --> 02:34:56,080
kings and priests and hold the
keys, you know, to bless their

2629
02:34:56,080 --> 02:34:58,440
families and preside over their
families.

2630
02:34:58,960 --> 02:35:07,360
And at the very end of the
discourse, he talks about, you

2631
02:35:07,360 --> 02:35:12,880
know, what about the, the dead
being linked to those who you

2632
02:35:12,880 --> 02:35:18,920
know, who are their relatives
who perform the ordinances for

2633
02:35:18,920 --> 02:35:21,680
them.
And what was interesting was

2634
02:35:21,680 --> 02:35:28,880
realizing that that comment was
was left out of the reprint of

2635
02:35:28,880 --> 02:35:32,640
it in the genealogical magazine.
But fortunately, the, you know,

2636
02:35:32,640 --> 02:35:35,880
the, the church had the
originals and the archives and

2637
02:35:37,520 --> 02:35:40,400
you know that discourse, you
know, we, we, we have that

2638
02:35:40,400 --> 02:35:43,960
discourse thanks to others
publishing it.

2639
02:35:43,960 --> 02:35:48,280
But you know, it just, you know,
consider interest.

2640
02:35:48,280 --> 02:35:51,800
I'm trying to, let's, I'm trying
to find the quote.

2641
02:35:51,800 --> 02:35:55,640
I, I'm wondering why.
Oh, here it is.

2642
02:35:55,640 --> 02:36:00,120
I found it so, so this is so he
said this is a subject relating

2643
02:36:00,120 --> 02:36:02,920
to the baptism for the dead.
We will tell you when the

2644
02:36:02,920 --> 02:36:04,920
temple's finished, how to redeem
your dead.

2645
02:36:05,680 --> 02:36:07,520
I want to tell you now, don't be
scared.

2646
02:36:07,520 --> 02:36:08,960
Don't be frightened at what I
tell you.

2647
02:36:09,280 --> 02:36:11,960
The Church does not understand
the doctrine that Joseph taught,

2648
02:36:11,960 --> 02:36:13,680
yet it is plain as the sun at
noonday.

2649
02:36:13,960 --> 02:36:16,560
The order of redeeming our
relatives originated in the

2650
02:36:16,560 --> 02:36:19,240
Kingdom of heaven.
If our progenitors had kept

2651
02:36:19,240 --> 02:36:21,680
their records as the Jews
anciently did, they would be

2652
02:36:21,680 --> 02:36:24,280
able to tell exactly where they
came from and see where they run

2653
02:36:24,280 --> 02:36:27,040
down in one straight line.
We have hundreds ready to be

2654
02:36:27,040 --> 02:36:30,640
baptized for the dead.
Suppose Brother Joseph or Hiram

2655
02:36:30,640 --> 02:36:34,360
or William comes came along, He
picks up 3 or 400.

2656
02:36:34,720 --> 02:36:36,800
He that has the greatest power
will take them.

2657
02:36:37,040 --> 02:36:40,040
Suppose someone is baptized for
my relations and I afterwards

2658
02:36:40,040 --> 02:36:42,400
find time, I will go and be
baptized for them and I will

2659
02:36:42,400 --> 02:36:44,640
hold them all.
Suppose Joseph was alive, he

2660
02:36:44,640 --> 02:36:47,080
could go and be baptized for
them and hold them all in spite

2661
02:36:47,080 --> 02:36:49,920
of all earth and hell.
There is a law by which the all

2662
02:36:49,920 --> 02:36:52,360
the human family will be
redeemed.

2663
02:36:52,360 --> 02:36:55,720
So that paragraph was kind of
left out in the republished, but

2664
02:36:55,720 --> 02:36:59,000
it's kind of talking about
whoever has you know, you know.

2665
02:36:59,040 --> 02:37:01,560
And so he said Joseph would
obviously have the best claim,

2666
02:37:01,560 --> 02:37:05,560
but for for people who he wants
to have directly linked to him.

2667
02:37:05,560 --> 02:37:08,800
But he said, but Brigham saying
equally, if if somebody's doing

2668
02:37:08,800 --> 02:37:14,240
work for my progenitors and I
find the time and I want to have

2669
02:37:14,240 --> 02:37:17,320
them linked to me, then I can do
the ordinances and have, you

2670
02:37:17,320 --> 02:37:20,320
know, that link created, you
know, if I have the better claim

2671
02:37:20,320 --> 02:37:24,880
to them, you know, basically.
And so, you know, I can see

2672
02:37:24,880 --> 02:37:30,920
there being concerns about, you
know, the people getting in

2673
02:37:30,920 --> 02:37:34,240
this, you know, Kingdom building
mentality.

2674
02:37:34,800 --> 02:37:38,240
But you know, when if you have
the right spirit about it, it

2675
02:37:38,240 --> 02:37:42,560
shouldn't be about that at all.
It's about, you know, helping

2676
02:37:42,720 --> 02:37:45,400
others, not trying to aggrandize
yourself.

2677
02:37:45,480 --> 02:37:49,120
I mean, but as we've talked
about, it's, you know, the

2678
02:37:49,120 --> 02:37:53,280
principal Joseph taught was that
aggrandizement is a correct

2679
02:37:53,280 --> 02:37:57,000
principle if you're equally, you
know, trying to aggrandize

2680
02:37:57,000 --> 02:37:59,960
others.
You know, it's not just there's

2681
02:37:59,960 --> 02:38:03,360
the quote in the history of the
church that's commonly cited,

2682
02:38:03,360 --> 02:38:10,840
but it's not there's a different
account of it that's not as

2683
02:38:10,840 --> 02:38:14,480
commonly quoted by Oliver B
Huntington that I really like

2684
02:38:14,480 --> 02:38:16,800
where he recalls what, you know,
he was present for that

2685
02:38:16,800 --> 02:38:19,560
discourse.
He said, quote, I heard Joseph,

2686
02:38:19,960 --> 02:38:21,880
Joseph Smith say something like
this.

2687
02:38:22,120 --> 02:38:25,040
Some people say that is not
right to seek to aggrandize

2688
02:38:25,040 --> 02:38:28,920
one's own self, that self
aggrandizement is not, is not a

2689
02:38:28,920 --> 02:38:32,720
good principle.
But says he Joseph, I say it is

2690
02:38:32,720 --> 02:38:36,080
a true and God like principle,
but it can only be done

2691
02:38:36,080 --> 02:38:40,560
permanently, justly and
righteously in only one way or

2692
02:38:40,560 --> 02:38:44,960
upon only one plan in order to
be eternal in its durability.

2693
02:38:45,400 --> 02:38:49,800
If any person will build up
others, benefit less and

2694
02:38:49,800 --> 02:38:53,800
permanently aggrandize others,
he in turn will be aggrandized

2695
02:38:53,800 --> 02:38:56,480
eternally.
And that is the only principle

2696
02:38:56,480 --> 02:39:00,600
or plan which it can be done and
remain forever.

2697
02:39:01,240 --> 02:39:04,840
And so I think that's.
The secret to?

2698
02:39:04,920 --> 02:39:08,960
Exaltation.
I think so, you know is is in

2699
02:39:08,960 --> 02:39:10,720
that.
Service for other people and

2700
02:39:10,720 --> 02:39:12,240
losing.
Yourself in the service of

2701
02:39:12,240 --> 02:39:15,520
others.
So I couldn't agree more and and

2702
02:39:15,520 --> 02:39:18,600
look.
I I think there's something else

2703
02:39:18,600 --> 02:39:20,040
we can.
Take take from this.

2704
02:39:20,040 --> 02:39:25,600
Discussion too about this, which
is just because.

2705
02:39:25,600 --> 02:39:27,960
You don't understand something,
doesn't mean you should.

2706
02:39:27,960 --> 02:39:31,000
Jettison it, right?
Get rid of it, right?

2707
02:39:33,120 --> 02:39:36,120
We saw what happened here with
the law of adoption by doing

2708
02:39:36,120 --> 02:39:38,960
that, right?
Sometimes you just need to teach

2709
02:39:38,960 --> 02:39:42,520
things over and over and over
again and figure out a better

2710
02:39:42,520 --> 02:39:45,760
way of communicating it.
Because just jettisoning a

2711
02:39:45,760 --> 02:39:50,160
practice, especially in these
matters, will only lead to

2712
02:39:50,160 --> 02:39:54,640
further capitulation on
important things.

2713
02:39:55,120 --> 02:39:58,440
And we're we need to do better
than that as a people.

2714
02:40:01,400 --> 02:40:03,400
Amen.
I I think you know that's.

2715
02:40:04,600 --> 02:40:08,520
An important thing I think that
when we put these principles and

2716
02:40:08,600 --> 02:40:11,160
you know, when we, when we
understand the principles

2717
02:40:11,560 --> 02:40:16,160
better, we're in a better
position to explain the gospel

2718
02:40:16,240 --> 02:40:19,960
to others and it makes more
sense.

2719
02:40:19,960 --> 02:40:23,400
And so I think it is.
And when you understand, you

2720
02:40:23,400 --> 02:40:27,920
know this, you know, the those
quotes I heard before, like

2721
02:40:27,920 --> 02:40:29,920
there's actually state, you
know, we're we're talking about

2722
02:40:29,920 --> 02:40:33,400
the Orson F Whitney statement
about parents who are faithful

2723
02:40:33,400 --> 02:40:36,800
will be able to reach out.
And, you know, the tentacles of

2724
02:40:36,800 --> 02:40:41,280
divine province will be able to,
you know, extend salvation to

2725
02:40:41,280 --> 02:40:42,960
them eventually, if not in this
life.

2726
02:40:42,960 --> 02:40:46,240
And you know, it will eventually
be able to, you know, be saved.

2727
02:40:46,720 --> 02:40:48,960
And there are similar quotes
where Brigham Young said the

2728
02:40:48,960 --> 02:40:51,240
same thing, Lorenzo Snow said
the same thing.

2729
02:40:53,120 --> 02:40:55,120
You know, and you don't
understand those until you

2730
02:40:55,120 --> 02:40:59,440
understand this, the sealing
principles, when you understand

2731
02:40:59,920 --> 02:41:03,040
the, you know, the, the, the,
the work, you know, that goes

2732
02:41:03,040 --> 02:41:05,720
into it, the work for the dead,
the, the Kingdom building.

2733
02:41:05,720 --> 02:41:13,000
And so, you know, even if
somebody who is in your family

2734
02:41:13,760 --> 02:41:17,880
isn't, you know, if they go
astray, you know, as long as you

2735
02:41:18,560 --> 02:41:23,440
continue to be valiant, you will
be able to continually offer,

2736
02:41:23,760 --> 02:41:26,760
you know, blessings to them.
You will be, you know, and, and

2737
02:41:26,800 --> 02:41:31,160
just because someone is living
in such a way that they might go

2738
02:41:31,160 --> 02:41:34,280
to a different Kingdom, doesn't
mean that you can't go and, and

2739
02:41:34,280 --> 02:41:37,200
reach out to them and try to
help uplift them.

2740
02:41:37,200 --> 02:41:41,440
And they can eventually change
and, and grow and, and, you

2741
02:41:41,440 --> 02:41:43,240
know, and, and progress in the
gospel.

2742
02:41:43,240 --> 02:41:48,000
So don't ever give up hope on
people you know, especially

2743
02:41:48,000 --> 02:41:51,480
those who are in your family
that you cherish and who you

2744
02:41:51,480 --> 02:41:56,080
want to see become.
You know all that God intends

2745
02:41:56,080 --> 02:42:00,480
for us to be so 100% I couldn't
agree with you.

2746
02:42:00,480 --> 02:42:10,520
More That part about not giving
up is huge too often and.

2747
02:42:10,520 --> 02:42:12,280
And I want to be generous here
but too.

2748
02:42:12,280 --> 02:42:17,160
Often I've heard people almost
explain it away too passively

2749
02:42:17,160 --> 02:42:20,000
where they're like, well, you
know, God lost a third of his

2750
02:42:20,000 --> 02:42:23,200
children, right?
And don't get me wrong, that is

2751
02:42:23,200 --> 02:42:25,400
true.
And that is not an indictment

2752
02:42:25,480 --> 02:42:29,600
upon our Father in heaven.
However, that does not mean we

2753
02:42:29,600 --> 02:42:33,400
get to just take it easy and
rest because you know what?

2754
02:42:33,400 --> 02:42:36,800
It happened to him, right?
I don't think God would be

2755
02:42:36,800 --> 02:42:39,960
pleased with us giving that kind
of an excuse.

2756
02:42:41,680 --> 02:42:43,800
Look, I have kids outside the
faith right now.

2757
02:42:44,640 --> 02:42:47,560
Doesn't mean I'm not going to
try like hell every time I get

2758
02:42:47,560 --> 02:42:50,320
an opportunity.
And it's a well placed

2759
02:42:50,320 --> 02:42:52,600
opportunity to bring them back,
right?

2760
02:42:53,320 --> 02:42:58,480
And that not giving up thing is
huge because we really don't

2761
02:42:58,480 --> 02:43:00,680
know who will accept the gospel,
right?

2762
02:43:00,680 --> 02:43:04,800
We really don't.
Our job is to present the the

2763
02:43:04,800 --> 02:43:08,000
offer and then see see if
they'll take it.

2764
02:43:09,320 --> 02:43:12,360
I was the guy who was the.
Least likely to become.

2765
02:43:12,360 --> 02:43:16,320
A Mormon doubly so for a
fundamentalist right.

2766
02:43:16,680 --> 02:43:23,560
And nonetheless, Amber made the
offer and and.

2767
02:43:23,840 --> 02:43:25,920
I.
Accepted begrudgingly I might

2768
02:43:25,920 --> 02:43:29,080
add, but accepted the offer to
at least learn about it.

2769
02:43:29,080 --> 02:43:33,520
And this is where I am now.
So I don't know if that's a.

2770
02:43:33,520 --> 02:43:35,680
Good thing or if that's a
cautionary tale, I got to think

2771
02:43:35,680 --> 02:43:39,600
that through.
But anyway, very similar case

2772
02:43:39,600 --> 02:43:43,080
like I I could not have.
You know, growing up, I wouldn't

2773
02:43:43,080 --> 02:43:46,480
have seen myself, you know, on
the path that I'm on.

2774
02:43:46,480 --> 02:43:50,080
And I think it's, you know, it
really shows that that, you

2775
02:43:50,080 --> 02:43:53,920
know, God can touch and reach
out to anyone and help them.

2776
02:43:54,560 --> 02:43:58,320
You know, he knows our hearts
and he knows if we're

2777
02:43:59,920 --> 02:44:03,880
susceptible to being willing to
change and he will extend those

2778
02:44:03,880 --> 02:44:06,200
offers.
And, you know, we can be

2779
02:44:06,200 --> 02:44:12,360
instruments to help him in doing
that work, to extend, you know,

2780
02:44:12,480 --> 02:44:16,360
the good gospel to those who
otherwise wouldn't be receptive

2781
02:44:16,360 --> 02:44:19,520
to it.
You know I will never quite

2782
02:44:19,560 --> 02:44:22,760
comprehend.
How someone couldn't get fired

2783
02:44:22,760 --> 02:44:28,720
up over temple work, right?
Because here's an opportunity to

2784
02:44:28,720 --> 02:44:31,040
not just benefit.
From but also.

2785
02:44:31,040 --> 02:44:35,240
Participate in a tiny portion of
the Atonement, right?

2786
02:44:35,440 --> 02:44:38,440
Because we do get to do
something for our ancestors that

2787
02:44:38,440 --> 02:44:43,680
they can't do for themselves.
And that's very much standing as

2788
02:44:43,680 --> 02:44:51,560
a savior on Mount Zion.
And look, the temple is.

2789
02:44:51,560 --> 02:44:53,960
So integral and those
ordinances.

2790
02:44:53,960 --> 02:44:59,320
Are so integral to Mormonism
they cannot be separated and

2791
02:44:59,320 --> 02:45:03,600
unless we have a good working
understanding of all of them, we

2792
02:45:03,600 --> 02:45:05,840
will end up lacking at some
point.

2793
02:45:05,880 --> 02:45:09,400
And as you pointed out with some
of the scriptures and some of

2794
02:45:09,400 --> 02:45:12,360
the comments you read, this is
important stuff.

2795
02:45:12,360 --> 02:45:16,440
This is the big leagues, right?
And you, you got to be dialed in

2796
02:45:16,440 --> 02:45:21,200
and we got to do it right.
And it's.

2797
02:45:21,560 --> 02:45:23,840
It's interesting to see that it
doesn't take long.

2798
02:45:23,840 --> 02:45:29,320
For it to get off course either,
yeah, that, that's just a

2799
02:45:29,320 --> 02:45:31,120
cautionary.
Tale and I you know, in.

2800
02:45:31,520 --> 02:45:35,160
In, in fundamentalism, in
adoption, you know, that I've

2801
02:45:35,160 --> 02:45:38,040
seen, you know, I, I, I'm not,
I'm not personally seen, but

2802
02:45:38,040 --> 02:45:41,880
I've wit, I've heard those
cautionary stories of people who

2803
02:45:42,280 --> 02:45:47,520
get really, you know, get really
excited about adoption and

2804
02:45:47,520 --> 02:45:50,920
misuse it in the ways that
Brigham warned about.

2805
02:45:50,920 --> 02:45:54,440
And, and, you know, that Brigham
witnessed, you know, it's kind

2806
02:45:54,440 --> 02:45:56,400
of history kind of repeats
itself.

2807
02:45:56,400 --> 02:45:59,520
I mean, there's also been lots
of, you know, I don't want to

2808
02:46:00,040 --> 02:46:03,520
minimize, but there's also been
lots of cases of people who I

2809
02:46:03,520 --> 02:46:08,120
think tried to do it right.
And, you know, and I think that

2810
02:46:08,120 --> 02:46:12,480
it could be a wonderful blessing
for those who try to live these

2811
02:46:12,480 --> 02:46:17,760
principles, right, in a way to
try to unite people rather than

2812
02:46:17,760 --> 02:46:20,560
divide people.
So that's the big thing.

2813
02:46:20,560 --> 02:46:23,760
I think that the, the core thing
I would take home from the law

2814
02:46:23,760 --> 02:46:28,000
of adoption is that the Saints
are intended to be 1 big family.

2815
02:46:28,000 --> 02:46:31,400
And I think fundamentalists, you
know, if you haven't interacted

2816
02:46:31,400 --> 02:46:35,720
with Dave, you know, you should.
You know, he doesn't bite and he

2817
02:46:35,720 --> 02:46:39,160
is brotherly to everyone.
Like I think, you know, that's

2818
02:46:39,160 --> 02:46:42,520
the spirit that we need to have
is, you know, as Brigham Young

2819
02:46:42,520 --> 02:46:45,240
said, he said, I, I have just as
much love for a man who's

2820
02:46:45,240 --> 02:46:48,320
adopted to Hebrew seek him more
or John Taylor.

2821
02:46:48,320 --> 02:46:50,960
We are one family.
And that's what we need to learn

2822
02:46:50,960 --> 02:46:54,960
about it with adoption is that
it's about the Saints being one

2823
02:46:54,960 --> 02:46:56,880
big family.
So Amen.

2824
02:46:58,280 --> 02:46:59,440
You know, I hope that's what we
can.

2825
02:46:59,440 --> 02:47:02,200
All strive to be.
In in learning about these

2826
02:47:02,200 --> 02:47:04,040
principles and striving to apply
them.

2827
02:47:04,080 --> 02:47:07,120
So awesome.
Well dude, I always learn

2828
02:47:07,120 --> 02:47:09,440
something every time.
We talk and I did again tonight

2829
02:47:09,440 --> 02:47:11,960
and I keep just can't tell you
how much I I love our

2830
02:47:11,960 --> 02:47:14,240
conversations and I appreciate
you being on.

2831
02:47:15,680 --> 02:47:17,440
Well, it's been, it's been a
pleasure having.

2832
02:47:17,440 --> 02:47:20,760
You having.
Me here and and letting you

2833
02:47:20,760 --> 02:47:23,360
know, letting me share this and
you know, talking about these

2834
02:47:23,360 --> 02:47:26,320
ideas with you because I think
that, you know, these

2835
02:47:26,320 --> 02:47:31,320
conversations are very important
for us to, you know, learn about

2836
02:47:31,320 --> 02:47:35,360
these ideas and work through and
kind of better understand them.

2837
02:47:35,400 --> 02:47:38,880
So I really appreciate you
inviting me on to discuss this.

2838
02:47:39,520 --> 02:47:42,040
Like I said, you got a standing
invitation anytime you want.

2839
02:47:42,040 --> 02:47:43,600
To come on, you just got to give
me a call.

2840
02:47:44,160 --> 02:47:47,160
But there's there is another
important matter I did want to

2841
02:47:47,160 --> 02:47:50,440
touch on briefly and that is,
dude, how are you going to get

2842
02:47:50,440 --> 02:47:52,920
some brisket all the way out
there in Utah now?

2843
02:47:52,920 --> 02:47:55,160
I mean, you're not I'm not close
anymore.

2844
02:47:55,160 --> 02:47:58,080
You can't just just swing in.
You're going to have to make a

2845
02:47:58,080 --> 02:48:00,160
trip to Missouri.
Yeah, yeah.

2846
02:48:00,200 --> 02:48:02,200
That's the unfortunate thing
about.

2847
02:48:03,320 --> 02:48:08,280
You know, Dave's Barbecues have
the the the gathering place for

2848
02:48:08,280 --> 02:48:12,800
Dave's Barbecues has has
fundamentally changed from Orem,

2849
02:48:12,800 --> 02:48:18,040
UT to is it southern Missouri?
Southwest Missouri?

2850
02:48:18,080 --> 02:48:21,840
Yep, Southwest Missouri.
Definitely going to have to come

2851
02:48:21,840 --> 02:48:23,880
out there eventually.
You're going to have to come out

2852
02:48:23,880 --> 02:48:25,840
here and I may have to just make
a roadie up.

2853
02:48:25,840 --> 02:48:29,440
There and just drag the bar,
drag the the smoker up with me

2854
02:48:29,440 --> 02:48:33,400
and just do do one up there too.
So I miss I definitely miss

2855
02:48:33,400 --> 02:48:35,360
having those and that's
something I seek to remedy

2856
02:48:35,360 --> 02:48:39,280
quickly.
So well, brother, it was fun as

2857
02:48:39,280 --> 02:48:40,560
always.
Hang out for 5 minutes.

2858
02:48:40,560 --> 02:48:42,480
All right, all right, sounds
good.

2859
02:48:42,640 --> 02:48:44,040
All right, bye, everybody
talking with you, Dave.

2860
02:49:15,640 --> 02:49:16,960
You're listening to the Norman.