Episode #97 What Does The Word Of Wisdom Really Say About The Consumption of Meat W/Joshua Erickson

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I enjoy doing this podcast each
and every single episode, but

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some are just kind of fun and
light hearted and this is going

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to be one of those.
I'm a man of simple taste.

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I enjoy hanging out with my
family.

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I enjoy learning about the
gospel.

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I like watching football while
eating a bag of Doritos and

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washing it down with an ice cold
Diet Pepsi.

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But what I really like to do
when I'm not sitting in front of

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a hot mic is smoking brisket or
grilling steak.

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But if you're like me, you've
stopped a couple times and asked

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the question, am I eating meat
sparingly?

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Well, fellow carnivores,
rejoice.

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Today on the podcast I have
Joshua Erickson on as we take a

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deep dive into the Word of
Wisdom and really take a good

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look at that portion where it
talks about the consumption of

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meat.
So get ready for a delicious

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episode of the Mormon Renegade
podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse.
To become and raise men and

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women of virtue and character is
a Herculean task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com.

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Go to the bottom of the page,
search out the blog post, and

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order your copy today.
I can bear personal testimony

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from personal experience that
this is an invaluable tool to

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help you raise men and women of
virtue and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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So did my fellow carnivores.
All those folks that just love a

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good steak, Maybe some brisket,
some chicken.

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I have got some great news for
you.

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Yay, this episode.
You could really call the gospel

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what it is.
The good news.

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So Joshua, when?
When?

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This is some.
This is some meaty, juicy stuff.

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Meat.
Juicy, right?

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Meaty.
Like like savory over the fire

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kind of stuff.
So sweet.

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Savour.
Sweet.

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Savour.
Yes, yes.

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So if you're a vegetarian, First
off, if you're a vegetarian for

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the reasons I think most people
listen to this podcast are, you

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could be a little disappointed.
I want to throw that out there

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right away.
If you're a vegetarian because

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you have ethical problems
killing animals, you are a rock

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star.
I get it.

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But I'm not that guy.
So this may not be the episode

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for you if you're a vegetarian.
But none the less, in all

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seriousness, I want to say this.
When I first heard Joshua here

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give give this presentation at
the at the Torah conference, one

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I was just extremely happy.
I went home with my faith,

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renewed my cup.
It overflowed.

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But it it does actually point to
some misunderstandings we might

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have about the Word of Wisdom,
specifically the part having to

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do with eating meat.
So with that Joshua, why don't

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you just take it from there?
Start out there.

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OK, First off, what got you
interested in this right?

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Yeah, OK.
That's a good question.

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Yeah, I will say it was a it was
a struggle that I had a a

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difficulty in interpreting the
scriptures because my and I've

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talked about this before, my
faith is that the the God that

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we worship does not change, does
not change his mind about

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things.
About his commandments, about

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what is pleasing and not.
He doesn't.

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Yeah, So.
And yet, when, you know, when I

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read the Doctrine Covenants,
when I read Section 89 in times

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past, not anymore, but in times
past, I read some things in

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there that didn't seem to
harmonize with some of the

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things in the Old Testament
especially so.

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You know in section 89 I've got
here word of Wisdom.

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Before you go there, I want to
share just a quick personal

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experience with this 'cause I
too had a a few issues with with

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the Word of Wisdom as far as the
the eating of meat and this

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comes from a real world
experience of mine.

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So this was about a year before
I started the podcast and my

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doctor, he's like, you know,
you're you're like 43, not going

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to lie.
You're chunky, right?

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You, you you got some girth to
you.

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I'm bigger.
I was bigger than than I am now

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he's like, let's get some blood
work.

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So he takes some blood work and
he said you need to get.

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Back in here, OK, I was like,
uh, oh, and he's like, bring

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your wife.
Now me and my doctor, he's kind

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of an old school doctor, so he
knew damn well if he doesn't.

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Want to follow the doctor's
orders?

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I'm not going to follow.
Right.

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He's going to have my wife in
there, right?

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So Amber comes with me and the
doctor says, look, you want to

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cut down on how badly you feel?
Because I had, I tore an ACL and

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I had constant inflammation.
No good.

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He's like, so we need to figure
out what we're going to do.

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And I said, OK, let me guess,
all vegetables and blah, blah,

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blah.
He said, well, most guys, I say

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yes, he said.
But because I know that you're

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not going to follow that anyway,
I want to kind of run an

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experiment with you and we'll
keep we'll we'll keep close tabs

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on you and we'll go from there.
Now I have a buddy won't name

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the university because I don't
want to get him in trouble, but

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he he he's in kinesiology.
I talked to him about it and he

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said, yeah, go for it.
So the experiment was this.

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My doctor had this idea that the
food pyramid as we use it now,

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isn't correct.
Well you can almost bet that

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like and and and he said that
that in his studies he found

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that the the study that was done
that pegged sclerosis of the

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arteries built plaque in your
arteries was the second study

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that was done.
The first study that was done

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pointed to refined sugars and
refined carbs right pastas,

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breads you know candy that sort
of stuff.

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When when that came back, that
particular lobby went, I got a

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pile full of money here.
That bets you can come up with a

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better study.
And then the animal fats were

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were to blame.
So he said, what I want to do,

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this is my doctor to me.
He says I want to put you on a

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high protein diet and with just
raw vegetables, if you have a

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hankering for something sweet,
some honey or fruit, that's what

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it was.
So I was like, so I still get to

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eat steak?
Yes, you still get to eat steak.

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I'm good now.
When I left the doctor's office

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that day, I had high blood
pressure, high cholesterol and I

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weighed about £35 more than what
I do right now.

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We coupled that with exercise as
well and those were the only

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things we changed.
And my my exercise routine is a

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lot of heavyweight lifting and
some intense interval training

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as far as cardio.
I do that for three weeks and I

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go back in and have my
cholesterol checked.

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The cholesterol is back down to
where it should be.

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Good cholesterol, bad
cholesterol.

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High blood pressure is gone.
The hypertension is completely

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gone.
My testosterone raised by a

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whole bunch.
Kudos to that doctor for not

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just.
Yeah, and.

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So prescribing you a drug for
those things, right, That's.

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A.
That's a rare, yeah.

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And so as as I looked at that
and and I did that, I was super

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happy with the outcome and and I
felt different.

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All the inflammation left,
right.

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I didn't have the knee problems.
I didn't have the the chronic

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pain I was having.
I didn't have crashes throughout

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the day, you know, 'cause
normally about 2:00 I could

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count on just wanting to take a
nap.

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I didn't have that anymore and I
was full all day.

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I wasn't feeling hungry all the
time and but it still presented

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something that somewhat of of a
conflict with the word of Wisdom

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I felt I felt like it was a
conflict because it said to eat

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meat sparingly and we'll get
into that too here later.

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So when you gave this talk at
Sunstone I I just resigned

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myself to say OK not Sunstone
excuse me the I apologize for

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that I I don't mean to fly the
they still want.

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People to go look for it.
Yeah, the the the Torah

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conference.
It was it was really a testimony

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builder to me that that that
maybe we got some things wrong

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with this.
And just just a little teaser

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Keep out for keep an ear out for
the name Heber J Grant in this

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'cause I think that comes up
here at some point.

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All right.
Go ahead.

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OK, so like I said, it was, you
know, it's you felt some

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tension, right, with this diet
that you were given and yet?

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And yet it was the results were
real, right, Tangible, right.

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You experienced that Not just in
my blood work, how I felt, how I

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was able to function as a human
being.

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Right.
I mean, and that's, I mean, I I

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think it's, I think the blood
work's even more amazing,

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actually, because it's like this
is not just changing your

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attitude, this is changing your
chemistry, right.

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Like that's something.
I mean, that's that's hard to

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fake, you know?
You can say, Oh yeah, I feel

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better today.
But you know you draw your blood

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and measure, right.
Whatever all the things that

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they're measuring and you can't
fake that.

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So, so so that's I mean that's a
that's a testimony right there

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of that what there was there was
some true principles behind what

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you were doing.
So I didn't.

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I never had had that kind of
experience, but.

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But when I when I kind of came
into this idea of loving the

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Torah and believing that's like
the foundation and that those

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things still apply as as far as
possible, then and and then also

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knowing the kind of standard
interpretation of the Word of

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Wisdom, especially with the
eating meat, then in my mind

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there's a conflict there and but
I just kind of kept wrestling

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with it.
And which is I think a healthy

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thing to do, is when you have
what seems like a contradiction.

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If you can, if you can manage to
kind of hold those contradictory

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ideas in your mind without like
falling to pieces and just

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giving up on everything, then
eventually if you just hold on

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to it long enough and
investigate it long enough, then

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you'll be able to see how things
fit together.

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I mean, I've, I've experienced
that before.

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Probably you've experienced
things like that before.

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So and that's OK.
I mean, you know what Israel

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means?
Like the name Israel to wrestle

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with God.
Wrestle with God.

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Yeah.
So those who are Israelites

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wrestle with God.
They don't just fall in line or

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whatever and necessarily believe
everything without trying it.

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I think.
I think.

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I think God appreciates a good.
Wrestle, whether that's a

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physical wrestle or a, you know,
in your mind with your faith or

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whatever.
So, so this was kind of one of

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my wrestles and I thought this
would be a good, a good one to

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present.
So yeah, so so going to the to

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the Word of Wisdom verse 12 and
13 there say and you know we've

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all read this 1000 * 1000 times.
Yeah, it's a short section and

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it's.
So prevalent.

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It's such a prevalent part of
Mormon culture, so I'll but I'll

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read it anyway.
Yeah, flesh, also a beast.

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And of the fowls of the air I,
the Lord, have ordained for the

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use of man with Thanksgiving.
Nevertheless, they are to be

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used sparingly, and it is
pleasing unto me that they

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should not be used only in times
of winter, or of cold, or of

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famine.
OK.

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And you know, there's.
You know verse 14 and 15 kind of

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kind of repeat that or it seems
like it repeats it, so we'll get

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00:14:35,990 --> 00:14:37,870
into that later.
But but those verses, they

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00:14:37,870 --> 00:14:42,550
seemed in my mind.
They seem to contradict what I

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00:14:42,550 --> 00:14:47,230
call like the good old way that
Father Abraham lived, where he

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00:14:47,230 --> 00:14:52,750
was sitting in his tent in the
this in Genesis says in the heat

230
00:14:52,750 --> 00:14:56,410
of the day.
So this is not winter, nor cold,

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00:14:56,410 --> 00:14:59,170
nor famine.
I mean, Abram was rich, that was

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00:14:59,730 --> 00:15:01,730
he's had flocks and herds
plenty.

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00:15:01,730 --> 00:15:04,290
This was he was not experiencing
famine.

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00:15:04,290 --> 00:15:06,610
And then he has the the three
visitors.

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00:15:07,650 --> 00:15:10,570
And right away who are who are
angels, right?

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The Lord himself is one of them.
And right away he kills a fatted

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00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:18,250
calf, makes him unleavened
bread, right.

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00:15:18,250 --> 00:15:22,720
And.
And you know, so you know, in

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00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:30,160
the Word of Wisdom here it says,
verse 13 says, it is pleasing

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00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,240
unto me that they, meaning the
beast field with thousands of

241
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,880
the air, should not be used only
in times of winter, cold or

242
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,920
famine.
So the question in my mind or

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00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,120
one question that you could ask
is was that pleasing what Abram

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00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,280
did?
And you know what I gave in at

245
00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,280
the at the Torah conference?
I think it was, Benjamin said.

246
00:15:50,710 --> 00:15:54,150
He seemed to please him.
He seemed to enjoy it, right?

247
00:15:54,670 --> 00:15:56,150
Yeah.
Which is you know an excellent

248
00:15:56,150 --> 00:16:00,390
way to put it.
So has what pleases the Lord

249
00:16:00,390 --> 00:16:05,470
changed or or is there something
maybe that that we're not

250
00:16:05,470 --> 00:16:09,110
understanding.
So that's kind of the the crux

251
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:10,590
you know.
And there's there's other things

252
00:16:10,590 --> 00:16:14,710
too in the in the Old Testament
I I love the Passover.

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00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:17,390
We've done an episode about
Passover and.

254
00:16:20,090 --> 00:16:22,290
You know, and we we keep the
Passover, but the Passover is in

255
00:16:22,290 --> 00:16:24,210
the spring.
You know, it's not in winter.

256
00:16:24,650 --> 00:16:26,730
And we're definitely not
starving.

257
00:16:26,730 --> 00:16:28,930
So there's none of that other
stuff either.

258
00:16:29,330 --> 00:16:32,730
And so, but we, you know, we
have a lamb and we roast it and

259
00:16:32,730 --> 00:16:35,210
we, we eat it and we invite our
friends over and have a party,

260
00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:40,170
you know, and that I want to say
this too, that's unusual for

261
00:16:40,170 --> 00:16:43,210
ritualistic sacrifice.
If you look at the bulk of

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00:16:43,210 --> 00:16:48,300
ritualistic sacrifice throughout
other denominations, whether

263
00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:50,860
that was the Phoenicians,
whether that was the Romans,

264
00:16:51,460 --> 00:16:53,020
those things didn't get
consumed.

265
00:16:53,820 --> 00:16:57,260
Those were supposed to be
consumed by by whatever God you

266
00:16:57,260 --> 00:16:59,060
were going to.
So the fact that the Lord is

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00:16:59,060 --> 00:17:00,940
saying.
Let's share.

268
00:17:00,940 --> 00:17:03,980
Let's have a meal.
Let's have a meal right I find

269
00:17:03,980 --> 00:17:05,220
interesting.
That is interesting.

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00:17:06,180 --> 00:17:13,460
So now, you know, you could just
say, and many people do, not

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00:17:13,460 --> 00:17:15,500
necessarily about the Word of
Wisdom, but you could say, yeah,

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00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:20,089
you know, back then.
They did that.

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00:17:20,290 --> 00:17:22,250
But that stuff's been done away,
you know.

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00:17:22,250 --> 00:17:24,730
But that's not.
I can't, I can't lean on that.

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00:17:24,730 --> 00:17:26,369
That's not part of my faith.
I think.

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00:17:26,930 --> 00:17:28,050
I don't.
I don't agree with that.

277
00:17:28,050 --> 00:17:31,250
So.
So how do I reconcile with God

278
00:17:31,250 --> 00:17:36,610
saying in Exodus do this
Passover thing forever, and then

279
00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:41,130
in the Word of Wisdom saying
it's not pleasing to me for you

280
00:17:41,130 --> 00:17:44,810
to eat meat except in winter
time or whatever?

281
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:51,620
So, but, you know, Joseph Smith
said kind of famously said by

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00:17:51,620 --> 00:17:54,140
proving contraries, truth is
made manifest.

283
00:17:54,140 --> 00:17:55,980
So we take things that seem
contrary.

284
00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:59,100
We butt them up against one
another and push them around and

285
00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:01,540
look at them from different
angles and eventually, you know,

286
00:18:01,540 --> 00:18:05,980
we'll find the truth.
So there's and you know,

287
00:18:05,980 --> 00:18:09,380
Speaking of the the Passover, I
mean the Word of Wisdom

288
00:18:09,860 --> 00:18:13,460
references the Passover
directly, right in his promises.

289
00:18:13,540 --> 00:18:19,130
At the end it says.
The very last verse I, the Lord,

290
00:18:19,130 --> 00:18:23,290
give unto them a promise.
Well, let's see verse 18.

291
00:18:23,650 --> 00:18:25,970
Sorry for 18.
It says those who I'll just

292
00:18:25,970 --> 00:18:28,290
paraphrase those who do the Word
of Wisdom and keep the

293
00:18:28,290 --> 00:18:30,330
commandments, then they get
these promises.

294
00:18:30,490 --> 00:18:34,130
Verse 21 says one of the
promises is that the destroying

295
00:18:34,130 --> 00:18:37,410
angels shall pass by them as the
children of Israel and not slay

296
00:18:37,410 --> 00:18:38,850
them.
So this is like directly

297
00:18:38,850 --> 00:18:42,050
connected to the Passover, which
is again just a weird thing if

298
00:18:42,050 --> 00:18:45,210
you think like the promises of
the Passover are in here.

299
00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:50,170
Right, but God is saying the
thing that brought about the

300
00:18:50,170 --> 00:18:52,610
promise is not pleasing to me,
right?

301
00:18:52,930 --> 00:18:55,890
Like that's that doesn't, that
doesn't jive, yeah.

302
00:18:59,410 --> 00:19:05,090
And again and again, you could
say, you could fall back again,

303
00:19:05,090 --> 00:19:09,770
like, yeah, but the the actual
Passover is done away or

304
00:19:09,770 --> 00:19:11,290
something.
And, you know, there's just

305
00:19:11,650 --> 00:19:14,450
these kind of spiritualized
promises or whatever, but.

306
00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:21,010
You know, but I read in Luke at
the Last Supper, the Last Supper

307
00:19:21,010 --> 00:19:24,450
was just, I believe there is
some controversy on this, but I

308
00:19:24,450 --> 00:19:27,210
believe it was immediately
before, like the night before

309
00:19:27,210 --> 00:19:28,410
Passover, right?
Right.

310
00:19:28,410 --> 00:19:31,570
And then Jesus was actually
crucified on Passover, right.

311
00:19:34,170 --> 00:19:40,650
So in Luke, Luke 22, they're
having the Last Supper, Jesus

312
00:19:40,650 --> 00:19:44,150
says.
With desire I have desire to eat

313
00:19:44,150 --> 00:19:49,870
this Passover with you before I
suffer, For I say unto you, And

314
00:19:49,870 --> 00:19:54,270
now here's the JST comes in, I
say unto you, I will not anymore

315
00:19:54,270 --> 00:19:57,910
eat thereof of the Passover
until it be, until it be

316
00:19:57,910 --> 00:20:02,430
fulfilled, which was written in
the prophets concerning me then.

317
00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:05,470
I will partake with you in the
Kingdom of God.

318
00:20:05,470 --> 00:20:09,150
Basically he's saying when, so
when the Kingdom of God comes

319
00:20:09,230 --> 00:20:12,390
and which is at his return.
Right when he When I return.

320
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:16,110
When I come back, I'm going to
eat this Passover with you that

321
00:20:16,110 --> 00:20:19,150
I have that I desire to eat but
I'm not going to get to because

322
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:20,910
I'm going to be the Passover,
right.

323
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:25,350
But he's yeah.
So Jesus is planning.

324
00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:28,030
Which actually answers that
question that I've heard many

325
00:20:28,030 --> 00:20:28,950
times.
What was that?

326
00:20:29,430 --> 00:20:32,650
Will we eat and drink?
Oh, wow.

327
00:20:32,890 --> 00:20:34,210
Well, Jesus did.
Yeah.

328
00:20:34,410 --> 00:20:37,250
Did you just prove.
He's like, he's like, feel me

329
00:20:37,370 --> 00:20:40,650
oh, you see me.
Oh, you don't believe, feel.

330
00:20:41,090 --> 00:20:44,050
Oh, you don't believe.
Give me some fish and honeycomb.

331
00:20:44,330 --> 00:20:47,570
Yep.
Like I am real inside and out.

332
00:20:47,570 --> 00:20:51,610
Yep.
Yeah, So yeah, he says.

333
00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:55,610
So that's what the JST kind of
adds like makes it more clear.

334
00:20:55,650 --> 00:21:00,230
You're just in the King James,
you might not catch it and you

335
00:21:00,230 --> 00:21:02,910
might be excused for, you know,
our Christian friends might be

336
00:21:02,910 --> 00:21:08,190
excused for not seeing the
future fulfillment in that, but

337
00:21:08,190 --> 00:21:10,030
like the the full fulfillment,
right.

338
00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:14,110
But I don't think the JST leaves
any doubt that Jesus is going to

339
00:21:14,110 --> 00:21:16,710
eat the Passover when he returns
and and that's going to be,

340
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:19,070
again, it's going to be in the
spring, right, not in the

341
00:21:19,070 --> 00:21:24,750
winter.
So, so all kinds of things.

342
00:21:24,750 --> 00:21:30,510
Now let's see.
So I don't know how much of this

343
00:21:30,510 --> 00:21:33,790
I want to get into, basically.
So I I will bring this up.

344
00:21:35,870 --> 00:21:38,590
This is a this is a quote from
Joseph Fielding Smith.

345
00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:44,870
He says it makes no difference
what is written or what anyone

346
00:21:44,870 --> 00:21:47,670
has said.
If what has been said is in

347
00:21:47,670 --> 00:21:52,190
conflict with what the Lord has
revealed, we can set it aside.

348
00:21:52,670 --> 00:21:55,470
If Joseph Fielding Smith writes
something which is out of

349
00:21:55,470 --> 00:21:59,090
harmony with the revelations,
then every member of the Church

350
00:21:59,090 --> 00:22:03,690
is duty bound to reject it.
If he writes that which is in

351
00:22:03,690 --> 00:22:06,170
perfect harmony with the
revealed word of the Lord, then

352
00:22:06,170 --> 00:22:08,170
it should be accepted.
So.

353
00:22:08,570 --> 00:22:14,850
So there you go.
So it there's all kinds of

354
00:22:14,850 --> 00:22:19,530
opinions about things, even
opinions by General Authorities

355
00:22:19,530 --> 00:22:22,170
and they'll write commentaries
on the scripture or whatever.

356
00:22:24,050 --> 00:22:27,510
But I think the, you know, my
faith is, and Joseph Fielding's

357
00:22:27,510 --> 00:22:32,270
faith is also that even if
someone in authority writes

358
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:36,470
things that are out of harmony,
then then you reject them.

359
00:22:37,150 --> 00:22:40,550
Now I will say we do have to.
I'm not saying that.

360
00:22:40,550 --> 00:22:44,270
Well, let me just, I'll just say
you have to be kind of careful

361
00:22:44,270 --> 00:22:48,950
with that because because at
first glance it seems like the

362
00:22:48,950 --> 00:22:53,350
Doctrine Covenants is out of
harmony with the Torah, right.

363
00:22:53,870 --> 00:22:59,190
And so and so you could say one
or the other is mistaken and

364
00:22:59,190 --> 00:23:01,470
reject it, you know, based on
what Joseph Fielding just said.

365
00:23:02,310 --> 00:23:06,830
But a lot of times I think it a
better policy is yes, maybe

366
00:23:06,830 --> 00:23:09,870
something seems to be
contradictory, but let's just

367
00:23:10,550 --> 00:23:13,190
slow down a minute and study
that out a little more.

368
00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:16,870
And maybe, maybe when we do
that, we find out that it is in

369
00:23:16,870 --> 00:23:19,860
harmony and maybe we don't.
Yeah, but.

370
00:23:19,860 --> 00:23:21,980
But let's not make We don't want
to jump to any hasty.

371
00:23:21,980 --> 00:23:24,300
Conclusion I was going to say.
I think this falls into that

372
00:23:24,300 --> 00:23:26,700
camp, but just be patient.
Right.

373
00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:32,140
Pursue it, yeah.
Pursue it with ferocity, but do

374
00:23:32,140 --> 00:23:35,740
not be so quick to just call one
or the other bad, right?

375
00:23:37,380 --> 00:23:40,540
In the end, everyone has to has
to follow their conscience,

376
00:23:40,620 --> 00:23:42,940
right?
And do what they think the

377
00:23:42,940 --> 00:23:46,660
scriptures and they're and
revelation and you know the

378
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,360
direction from their authorities
like you have to kind of yeah

379
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,920
find a balance between those
sources of inspiration.

380
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:04,760
Yep and so and everyone's I'm
not anyone's judge so but but

381
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:10,640
anyway I do want to I do want to
mention just a word about about

382
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,320
the Torah.
I I've said it before on here

383
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,310
before I think.
But it it is kind of important

384
00:24:16,310 --> 00:24:20,350
to know what I'm talking about
when I say the Torah or the law

385
00:24:20,750 --> 00:24:23,990
because there is some
disagreement about that between

386
00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:27,630
like Jews and Christians or you
know Mormons too.

387
00:24:30,830 --> 00:24:38,750
The because the when we think of
the law and I I knew when I was

388
00:24:38,950 --> 00:24:41,950
a child thinking back on like
Sunday school lessons I had.

389
00:24:42,350 --> 00:24:47,450
I had lessons actually I had.
I had one really good teacher

390
00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:51,610
and I remember he gave a lesson
about keeping the Sabbath day

391
00:24:51,610 --> 00:24:57,770
holy and he talked about the
laws that the Jews follow and he

392
00:24:57,770 --> 00:25:03,490
had us he had us like fill out a
a tithing envelope, you know and

393
00:25:03,490 --> 00:25:07,330
then said you know that in doing
that you just broke the Sabbath

394
00:25:08,050 --> 00:25:10,690
according to Jewish laws.
Because you're not supposed to.

395
00:25:10,690 --> 00:25:12,330
Because you're actually like
doing work.

396
00:25:12,330 --> 00:25:14,050
Because you're creating
something like you're writing

397
00:25:14,450 --> 00:25:16,730
and then you're also like
sealing an envelope, which is

398
00:25:16,730 --> 00:25:19,730
also not allowed.
Like you can't like bind or

399
00:25:19,730 --> 00:25:24,290
loose anything.
So and like you know, tying

400
00:25:24,290 --> 00:25:27,130
tying knots is forbidden.
So like, put it on your necktie

401
00:25:27,130 --> 00:25:31,610
to go to church, like according
to the rabbis that's that is

402
00:25:31,610 --> 00:25:34,450
breaking the Sabbath.
And so he told us all these

403
00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:36,210
interesting things.
You know, unless you do it with

404
00:25:36,210 --> 00:25:38,810
one hand, like you can tie knots
only with one hand not two or

405
00:25:39,010 --> 00:25:40,530
you know, there's all the kinds
of things.

406
00:25:40,530 --> 00:25:45,040
I don't remember the whole
lesson, but just like regular

407
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,080
going to church in the eyes of
the rabbis is breaking it.

408
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,000
Like things that we do at church
are is breaking the Sabbath in

409
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,800
many ways.
So to my young mind it's like,

410
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,080
whoa, wow, a lot of Moses really
hard.

411
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,320
That's that's kind of ridiculous
stuff.

412
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,680
Like that's really burdensoming.
And what's the problem with

413
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,000
filling out a tithing, you know,
envelope or whatever?

414
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,360
Later on though, you know, as I
read the scripture for myself

415
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:16,470
and do some studying, I realized
that none of those things are

416
00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:19,070
actually in the law.
That's not what the law says,

417
00:26:19,270 --> 00:26:21,830
right?
That is what the rabbis say is a

418
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:23,790
law.
And the rabbi and the Pharisees,

419
00:26:24,630 --> 00:26:29,110
Pharisees in Jesus Day, the
unique thing about them and the

420
00:26:29,230 --> 00:26:32,550
modern Rabbinical Judaism is a
descendant of Pharisaical

421
00:26:32,590 --> 00:26:35,110
Judaism.
And The thing is, they say that

422
00:26:35,110 --> 00:26:38,390
there was two laws, There was 2.
Taurus 2.

423
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:40,870
Laws of Moses.
One was the written which we

424
00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:44,820
have in the five books of Moses.
And then there was the Oral Law

425
00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:49,540
which was given and passed down
as tradition but it but it was

426
00:26:49,540 --> 00:26:52,660
originated with Moses and it is
equally authoritative.

427
00:26:54,380 --> 00:26:59,140
And all of these additional
rules, those all have their have

428
00:26:59,140 --> 00:27:00,740
their roots in the the Oral
Torah.

429
00:27:02,180 --> 00:27:07,140
So when I when I speak of the
the Torah and the Law of Moses,

430
00:27:07,860 --> 00:27:11,100
I'm actually Speaking of
something different than the

431
00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:15,080
Rabbis are now.
The the things that the things

432
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:21,120
that the rabbis do and say are
beautiful and useful.

433
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,640
But the problem is when we make,
when we turn traditions into

434
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,080
commandments, right.
So there's nothing wrong with

435
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,720
tradition.
I love tradition, Tradition's

436
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,440
beautiful.
But when when we try to enforce

437
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:41,430
it, then, then we have problems.
And this is actually Jesus had

438
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:43,750
problems with the rabbis over
this all the time.

439
00:27:43,950 --> 00:27:48,590
Yeah, your traditions are
causing you causing us friction

440
00:27:48,590 --> 00:27:58,270
here.
So OK, so the the traditions, I

441
00:27:58,270 --> 00:28:02,430
don't believe those are in
force.

442
00:28:03,070 --> 00:28:04,710
We're not bound by those,
they're not binding.

443
00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:06,670
But what is written?
I do believe it's binding.

444
00:28:07,390 --> 00:28:11,570
So, OK, and I'm gonna move along
here a little bit.

445
00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:21,970
So let's get let's just go right
to this, I guess.

446
00:28:23,530 --> 00:28:25,970
Well, OK.
So I wanna say, I wanna say one

447
00:28:25,970 --> 00:28:34,690
other thing about cleanliness.
You know in Section 42 of the

448
00:28:34,690 --> 00:28:42,110
Doctrine and Covenants it says
let all things be done in

449
00:28:42,110 --> 00:28:47,310
cleanliness before me.
So cleanliness in the scriptures

450
00:28:47,310 --> 00:28:50,990
means several things, but one of
them is related to our diet,

451
00:28:50,990 --> 00:28:55,070
like clean eating kosher.
Kosher yeah, not kosher but

452
00:28:55,070 --> 00:28:59,910
kosher yes, but kosher no.
So actually leads right into the

453
00:28:59,910 --> 00:29:08,990
next little story and that is
that is having to do with which

454
00:29:08,990 --> 00:29:12,910
animals you know are clean or
not, or what we can do as far as

455
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:17,070
our diets.
Now in in Acts chapter 10, Peter

456
00:29:17,070 --> 00:29:21,270
has his vision right.
He sees the all these animals

457
00:29:21,270 --> 00:29:27,710
come down and there's a voice
that says rise Peter Slay and

458
00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:32,510
eat.
And Peter says not so Lord.

459
00:29:32,710 --> 00:29:37,000
And he says, never at any time
have I eaten anything that is

460
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:44,360
unclean nor common.
And then and then the voice

461
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,720
says, what God has made clean,
do not call common.

462
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,560
So there wasn't there wasn't an
argument about the unclean.

463
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,280
The argument was about the
argument that Peter was having

464
00:29:55,280 --> 00:30:00,040
with the Lord was about what the
comment, what common is right or

465
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,560
whether he should eat those
things that are common.

466
00:30:04,540 --> 00:30:10,380
So, so just So what is common
then common has to do with the

467
00:30:10,380 --> 00:30:17,100
term you just said kosher so and
kosher things that are kosher

468
00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:22,500
follow the laws of cash root.
So this is a whole body of rules

469
00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:24,740
that have to do with clean
eating basically.

470
00:30:26,180 --> 00:30:30,980
But it's it's way more than
clove and hoove chews it's cud

471
00:30:31,260 --> 00:30:36,520
you know or fins and scales if
it's in in the water cash root

472
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,040
has has even deals with the way
that the that the animal is

473
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:41,960
killed.
Right.

474
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:48,720
So so the there are special
kinds of rabbis called sokhets

475
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,160
and and these are trained rabbis
and like not just anyone can

476
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,520
kill a lamb a sheep or a cow to
to eat it or chicken or

477
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,630
whatever.
You have to be specially trained

478
00:30:59,630 --> 00:31:02,390
rabbi and there's all these
additional rules you have to

479
00:31:02,390 --> 00:31:03,510
follow.
You have to you know you say

480
00:31:03,510 --> 00:31:06,910
these blessings you you have to
immerse yourself in the mikvah

481
00:31:06,910 --> 00:31:09,670
before you you do it and have a
special knife.

482
00:31:10,110 --> 00:31:13,470
It's a certain size depending on
the animal and you know the tip

483
00:31:13,470 --> 00:31:18,230
of the knife can never be.
You know you can't plunge the

484
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:20,150
knife into the neck cause the
the tip of the knife is not

485
00:31:20,150 --> 00:31:23,750
allowed to be covered by
feathers or fur or flesh.

486
00:31:24,590 --> 00:31:27,070
So and you have to, you know cut
in a certain place, you know,

487
00:31:27,070 --> 00:31:29,510
not too high, not too low, not
too deep and not too shallow.

488
00:31:29,510 --> 00:31:32,670
Like you cut too deep, like if
you cut too deep and you cut, if

489
00:31:32,670 --> 00:31:37,950
you touch your bone, then that
animal is not kosher anymore.

490
00:31:38,270 --> 00:31:40,790
Oh wow.
So anyway there's a there's I'll

491
00:31:40,790 --> 00:31:43,150
go through all the rules and I
don't know all the rules but

492
00:31:43,150 --> 00:31:50,990
there's there's quite a few and
and if if any of the rules are

493
00:31:50,990 --> 00:31:53,750
violated then the animal is
unfit for consumption.

494
00:31:54,620 --> 00:31:58,700
It's what we would call in in
the terms of in the words that

495
00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:00,820
Peter used we would call it
common gotcha.

496
00:32:01,220 --> 00:32:04,300
So those those are things that
the the Jews sell to the

497
00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:06,500
Gentiles like we can't we can't
eat.

498
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:08,340
That is unlawful for us to eat
that.

499
00:32:09,020 --> 00:32:11,940
Now the scripture doesn't
actually say that's unlawful but

500
00:32:11,940 --> 00:32:14,940
that's the the environment that
Peter's living in.

501
00:32:15,340 --> 00:32:19,540
Right says rise, slay and eat.
He's like I'm not I'm not a

502
00:32:19,540 --> 00:32:21,900
specially trained rabbi.
I don't have the ceremonial

503
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:25,580
knife.
I haven't done the mikvah, you

504
00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:28,580
know.
And if I if I kill it, it will

505
00:32:28,580 --> 00:32:32,180
be considered common.
And I have never eaten anything

506
00:32:32,180 --> 00:32:35,380
common nor unclean either,
either one.

507
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:41,500
So what the Lord says, what I
said is clean is like that's

508
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:46,580
good enough.
I said you can eat sheep, you

509
00:32:46,580 --> 00:32:51,530
can eat cows.
Then don't complain about you

510
00:32:51,530 --> 00:32:54,370
know, don't tell me that you
can't eat a cow when I said you

511
00:32:54,370 --> 00:32:55,650
could.
Gotcha.

512
00:32:55,650 --> 00:32:57,490
So.
So what the Lord's doing here

513
00:32:57,970 --> 00:33:03,330
is, is the Lord himself through
this dream is breaking the the

514
00:33:03,330 --> 00:33:04,730
false tradition.
That's right.

515
00:33:05,210 --> 00:33:06,930
Now it's interesting.
Some people will say that

516
00:33:06,930 --> 00:33:10,370
Peter's dream was about food and
some people say no, no, it was

517
00:33:10,370 --> 00:33:13,010
about people.
Because of course Cornelius

518
00:33:13,530 --> 00:33:17,490
comes right after that, right?
And it's interesting when Peter

519
00:33:17,490 --> 00:33:22,270
goes to Cornelius House and he
steps in the house and he says

520
00:33:22,270 --> 00:33:26,590
something amazing, he says, he
says, you and I both know that

521
00:33:26,750 --> 00:33:29,910
what I'm doing is against the
law.

522
00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:33,430
It's unlawful.
But you read again, you read the

523
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:35,790
scriptures, and there's.
There's nothing in there.

524
00:33:35,790 --> 00:33:37,630
There's nothing in there about.
You can't.

525
00:33:38,510 --> 00:33:42,190
Israelites can't fraternize with
Gentiles under any or, you know,

526
00:33:42,190 --> 00:33:44,430
or vice versa.
There's nothing about that.

527
00:33:44,430 --> 00:33:51,020
In fact, Gentiles are welcome
and you know but but there were

528
00:33:51,020 --> 00:33:54,260
laws about that.
But these are again, these are

529
00:33:54,260 --> 00:33:58,380
traditions that had become laws
and become an impediment to

530
00:33:58,540 --> 00:33:59,940
spreading the gospel.
Right.

531
00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:04,660
And so in this one dream,
basically I some people say it's

532
00:34:04,660 --> 00:34:06,780
again about animals, some people
say it's about food.

533
00:34:06,780 --> 00:34:08,980
And I think it was actually
about traditions.

534
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:12,980
And but the traditions just
happened to touch on both of

535
00:34:12,980 --> 00:34:16,440
these topics.
So all that, all that is, you

536
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,639
know, partly to say that, you
know, there are traditions

537
00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:20,880
associated with our keeping of
the word wisdom.

538
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:30,480
And and there are also again
laws from ancient times that I

539
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,520
don't believe Peter's dream does
away with anything.

540
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:39,159
Like Peter's dream isn't OK, you
can go ahead and eat horses and

541
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:43,239
snails and swine.
Those things are still off the

542
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:48,000
table, so to speak.
And so we want to interpret the

543
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,360
OR I want to anyway.
I want to interpret the Word of

544
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,480
Wisdom in light of all the laws
that God has given having to do

545
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,200
with diets and find out if if it
if I can make it fit, you know,

546
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,360
and interpret it in with through
that lens.

547
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:12,920
OK, so so Jesus Abraham was not
a vegetarian.

548
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:19,200
Jesus was not a vegetarian.
Even the resurrected Jesus was

549
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,320
not a vegetarian.
He only asked He only, as far as

550
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,760
we know, as far as we have
record of he ate two things,

551
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,120
fish and honey.
Fish and honeycomb.

552
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,040
Neither of which is a vegan,
right?

553
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,240
Nor, you know, nor vegetarian.
Well, the honeys might be

554
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:38,160
vegetarian, but right?
Definitely not not vegetables,

555
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,600
right?
They're both in animal and

556
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:41,720
animal.
Yeah.

557
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,110
So yeah.
And when Jesus is coming back,

558
00:35:46,110 --> 00:35:48,190
he's gonna eat the Passover and
all that.

559
00:35:48,190 --> 00:35:55,270
So.
So now there were, there were

560
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:59,510
and there have been religious,
you know vegetarian movements.

561
00:35:59,670 --> 00:36:03,390
Sure.
One of them was the was the

562
00:36:03,470 --> 00:36:06,150
Shakers.
OK.

563
00:36:06,150 --> 00:36:10,710
And we have in our Doctrine
Covenants, section 49, which was

564
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:17,160
addressed to the Shakers in Ohio
there, And you know, verse 18

565
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:23,240
and 19 of of section 89, section
49, sorry, say, whoso forbiddeth

566
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,160
to abstain from meats, that man
should not eat.

567
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,480
The same is not ordained of God.
For behold the beast of the

568
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,320
field and the fowls of the air,
and that which cometh of the

569
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,840
earth is ordained for the use of
man for food and for raiment,

570
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,960
and that he might have in
abundance.

571
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:45,940
So, so we have that and yet and
yet there still seems to be this

572
00:36:46,220 --> 00:36:48,620
lingering or persistent
interpretation of the word

573
00:36:48,620 --> 00:36:54,180
wisdom.
So one issue is in verse 13.

574
00:36:54,700 --> 00:37:00,900
There's a controversy about the
comma in the comma in between

575
00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:05,460
the words used, and only and
commas can you know, punctuation

576
00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:06,980
can make.
It can.

577
00:37:06,980 --> 00:37:09,660
In the English language.
It can be huge, that's correct.

578
00:37:09,660 --> 00:37:15,080
Like a comma can actually change
the meaning to its complete

579
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,000
opposite.
Yep, that's right.

580
00:37:18,240 --> 00:37:25,040
So with the comma.
With the comma, and it is

581
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,040
pleasing unto me that they,
meaning the beasts and fowls

582
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,960
mentioned in verse 12.
It is pleasing unto me that they

583
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,480
should not be used.
Stop.

584
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,920
Right.
There's a pause only in times of

585
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,400
winter or cold or famine.
What?

586
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,670
What that?
That basically means accept as

587
00:37:41,670 --> 00:37:44,070
that comma stands right now,
right.

588
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:51,870
So it's saying unless it's
winter or famine, you can't, you

589
00:37:51,870 --> 00:37:54,190
shouldn't be eating meat.
That's right.

590
00:37:54,830 --> 00:37:58,110
That's the modern interpretation
according to where that comma is

591
00:37:58,110 --> 00:38:00,310
placed right now.
Yeah, yeah.

592
00:38:00,310 --> 00:38:03,190
And that's that's that's a very
common interpretation.

593
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:07,080
But this just.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

594
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,960
Renegade podcast?
Well, good news, we're on

595
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,400
Patreon and there's three
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596
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597
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598
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599
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600
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,840
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601
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,800
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602
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603
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604
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605
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:42,190
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606
00:38:42,190 --> 00:38:44,630
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607
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:48,390
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608
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:50,870
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609
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:53,750
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Go to Patreon today and get your

610
00:38:53,750 --> 00:38:56,510
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This episode of the podcast is

611
00:38:56,510 --> 00:38:58,670
brought to you by Deseret
flag.com.

612
00:38:59,150 --> 00:39:00,910
I've said this before, and I
really mean it.

613
00:39:00,910 --> 00:39:03,590
Mormonism isn't just a religion,
it's a culture.

614
00:39:03,870 --> 00:39:06,630
As such, it has its own
vernacular and practices, but

615
00:39:06,630 --> 00:39:09,390
also its own symbols.
And those symbols become even

616
00:39:09,390 --> 00:39:11,670
more important and prominent
when you look back into our

617
00:39:11,670 --> 00:39:13,510
history.
Perhaps one of the most

618
00:39:13,510 --> 00:39:16,430
recognizable symbols of
Mormonism is the Deseret flag.

619
00:39:16,710 --> 00:39:20,030
This is the flag that I use as
cover art in this podcast.

620
00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:23,430
This was also used for a good
chunk of time during the Pioneer

621
00:39:23,430 --> 00:39:26,120
era in Utah.
Now today we have people who

622
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,120
want to replace the existing
Utah flag with some other

623
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,160
progressive monstrosity.
Well, I think it's damp past

624
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,840
time that we start pushing back
here a little bit in Utah.

625
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,920
Our friends at Defending Utah
are here to help you with that.

626
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,040
Now if you go to
deseretflag.com, you can now

627
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,040
purchase your own Deseret State
flag.

628
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,640
It's time here that we start
making ourselves known and join

629
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,480
the resistance against those who
seek to rewrite our state's

630
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,980
history.
Go to deseretflag.com or check

631
00:39:52,980 --> 00:39:55,220
out the link in this episode's
page.

632
00:39:55,220 --> 00:39:59,660
Show notes and get yours today.
In my mind, and this is the the,

633
00:40:00,940 --> 00:40:02,780
you know, the thing that
triggered this wrestle, is that

634
00:40:02,780 --> 00:40:05,820
that seems to contradict those
other things that we read in the

635
00:40:05,820 --> 00:40:08,220
New Testament and the Old
Testament about Passover and

636
00:40:08,220 --> 00:40:11,820
Abraham and.
And the Doctrine in Covenants 49

637
00:40:11,820 --> 00:40:14,700
even.
Yes, right, right.

638
00:40:14,700 --> 00:40:17,660
So we want whatever
interpretation we pick, we we

639
00:40:17,660 --> 00:40:23,300
need it to be consistent across
every place where the Lord is

640
00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:25,580
spoken.
Coherent we need everything to

641
00:40:25,580 --> 00:40:29,620
come together and knit together,
rather than having like

642
00:40:29,620 --> 00:40:34,300
fragmented scriptures that we
interpreted this way one time

643
00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:38,300
and this way another time.
So this this comma though is

644
00:40:38,300 --> 00:40:41,860
kind of controversial because it
is not in the original

645
00:40:41,860 --> 00:40:46,660
Revelation.
The comma is absent actually

646
00:40:46,980 --> 00:40:49,780
from all of all of the original
sources that we have.

647
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,720
So in Revelation Book one and
Revelation Book two and The

648
00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:59,600
Sydney Gilbert Notebook, and we
have an old copy of Wilford

649
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,680
Woodruff's Book of Commandments,
which was given like the Word of

650
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,360
Wisdom was not in the Book of
Commandments, but it was given

651
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,880
after, and there was blank pages
at the end.

652
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:14,200
And he wrote the Word of Wisdom
in there, and there's no comma

653
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:19,680
there between before only, So
there's no pause there.

654
00:41:20,270 --> 00:41:27,670
So if we read it, if we read it
in that way, was also no pause.

655
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:30,630
There I'll read it again.
And it is pleasing unto me that

656
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:34,430
they should not be used only in
times of winter, or cold or

657
00:41:34,430 --> 00:41:38,990
famine.
So if you read it that way, it

658
00:41:38,990 --> 00:41:45,110
could, it could, you could read
it as I don't want you to save

659
00:41:45,110 --> 00:41:49,110
them for emergencies, right?
It is pleasing to me.

660
00:41:49,490 --> 00:41:53,290
For them to be used at other
times as well, Well and and

661
00:41:53,290 --> 00:41:57,610
here's the thing I I just have
racing thoughts on this too.

662
00:41:57,730 --> 00:42:01,530
What does in in the parable of
the prodigal son?

663
00:42:01,810 --> 00:42:04,530
What does the Father do when the
Son comes back?

664
00:42:04,730 --> 00:42:06,890
Yeah, kills a fatted calf.
Kill the fatted calf.

665
00:42:07,210 --> 00:42:12,170
We're, you know, we're we're
going to eat tonight.

666
00:42:12,250 --> 00:42:18,010
We're going to eat well, right?
And that is, that is something

667
00:42:18,010 --> 00:42:20,690
that's lost on us.
Now tell me about the history of

668
00:42:20,690 --> 00:42:22,690
that comma.
Then where does that comma come

669
00:42:22,690 --> 00:42:23,650
from?
Yeah.

670
00:42:23,650 --> 00:42:24,890
Oh, OK Yeah.
Yeah.

671
00:42:25,730 --> 00:42:29,610
Heber J.
Grant, you're most that son of a

672
00:42:29,610 --> 00:42:32,250
bitch.
OK, now we I, I.

673
00:42:32,290 --> 00:42:36,690
We don't know if it was Heber J.
Grant necessarily, but in the

674
00:42:36,690 --> 00:42:42,570
originals and in all of the
printed versions up until 1920,

675
00:42:44,090 --> 00:42:49,580
the comma was absent.
And so it shows up in 1920, and

676
00:42:49,580 --> 00:42:52,620
no one actually knows for sure
who put it in there.

677
00:42:53,220 --> 00:42:58,980
It may even have just been like
a stray mark that got

678
00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:03,540
accidentally turned into a coma.
That's a possibility I want to

679
00:43:03,540 --> 00:43:06,460
add some historical context to,
this time in the 20s.

680
00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:13,780
OK, up until this point, it's
important to note that the Word

681
00:43:13,780 --> 00:43:16,700
of Wisdom was never on any
Temple recommended interview.

682
00:43:17,620 --> 00:43:21,860
It was absolutely.
It was one of those things that

683
00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:26,900
you were encouraged to look at,
to live by, but it was never on

684
00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:30,060
a recommended interview.
So what's happening in the 20s

685
00:43:30,060 --> 00:43:32,340
in American Society?
It's prohibition.

686
00:43:32,580 --> 00:43:35,380
Well, there's prohibition, but
there's also other things

687
00:43:35,380 --> 00:43:37,660
happening.
What we're seeing now is that

688
00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:43,450
there's a move in society
towards a more grain based.

689
00:43:44,090 --> 00:43:45,890
Diet.
There's a whole like health.

690
00:43:46,170 --> 00:43:48,090
This is a whole health thing,
right?

691
00:43:49,210 --> 00:43:52,610
The 7th Day Adventist during
this time come forward front and

692
00:43:52,610 --> 00:43:56,490
Center for their the way they
they live and the way they eat.

693
00:43:56,970 --> 00:44:02,410
Very similar in a lot of ways,
but there's also entire retreats

694
00:44:02,410 --> 00:44:06,770
set up around eating clean
during the same time.

695
00:44:08,370 --> 00:44:14,040
In my opinion, looking at all
that data, it's never there

696
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,320
before 1920.
It shows up during 1920.

697
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,920
We know that there's a big push
within the LDS leadership to get

698
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,720
America, I mean, get the church
more American, so to speak,

699
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,720
right?
Prohibition is huge and they

700
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:38,320
sign up for this wholeheartedly.
And my opinion is this is one of

701
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:44,640
those instances where we see the
church trying to cozy up to the

702
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:49,320
culture.
And and I mean, it's fascinating

703
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,120
history as you look at it.
There's whole resorts where, you

704
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,160
know, that's where cornflakes
comes from.

705
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,160
That's where great Nuts comes
from.

706
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,000
Yes, this is the time.
Of yes, yes, this, this all

707
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,080
comes in that same time.
Period.

708
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,900
Which does not fit with
everything else before, and now

709
00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:11,220
all of a sudden it becomes a
thing.

710
00:45:11,340 --> 00:45:12,620
Interesting.
Yeah.

711
00:45:12,620 --> 00:45:16,860
So there's a there's a bigger,
there are bigger pressures like

712
00:45:16,860 --> 00:45:19,300
societal, societal movements
that are happening.

713
00:45:19,300 --> 00:45:21,020
Exactly, yes.
Interesting.

714
00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:29,260
So yeah, anyway, it it shows up
and now there is there is

715
00:45:29,260 --> 00:45:32,420
another another controversy
because even even with the

716
00:45:32,420 --> 00:45:37,020
comma, it can still be read a
couple of different ways and

717
00:45:37,020 --> 00:45:40,230
that's.
What you think only means,

718
00:45:41,710 --> 00:45:45,470
right, They should not be used
only in times of winter.

719
00:45:45,470 --> 00:45:50,990
So only could mean except as we
mentioned before, but only could

720
00:45:50,990 --> 00:45:56,150
also mean solely like.
So except as like excluding

721
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:58,990
other things but solely is kind
of looking at the other way of

722
00:45:59,070 --> 00:46:01,550
saying just this thing only,
right?

723
00:46:02,070 --> 00:46:08,260
This thing solely and.
If you if you kind of like make

724
00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:11,460
a substitution there and and
some people have argued for

725
00:46:11,460 --> 00:46:14,220
this, they're like, yeah, the
comma got put in, it wasn't in

726
00:46:14,220 --> 00:46:18,220
the original.
But the word only actually means

727
00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:23,100
accept, and if it means accept
then the meet then the comma

728
00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:25,980
does not change the meaning.
So I'm going to read it.

729
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:29,220
I'm going to read it with and
without the comma, but using the

730
00:46:29,220 --> 00:46:32,100
word accept instead of only and
you tell me if like to your ear

731
00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:35,320
if they sound the same.
It is pleasing unto me that they

732
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:40,280
should not be used except in
times of winter cold or famine,

733
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,080
OK or is pleasing unto me.
They should not be used except

734
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:47,560
in times of winter, cold or
famine.

735
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:54,240
So if you if the if only means
accept, then it is true that the

736
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:57,440
comma doesn't actually change
the meat, and it means meat

737
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,080
should be limited to these
emergency times.

738
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,550
OK now.
The the problem is that it can

739
00:47:05,550 --> 00:47:11,030
also mean solely.
So we'll put I'll put that in

740
00:47:11,030 --> 00:47:14,310
there, OK, pleasing unto me that
they should not be used.

741
00:47:15,790 --> 00:47:18,190
Let's see, we'll do with the
with the comma, without the

742
00:47:18,190 --> 00:47:21,030
comma, so comma first, pleasing
unto me that they should not be

743
00:47:21,030 --> 00:47:27,270
used solely in times of winter,
cold, or famine, or which kind

744
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:29,510
of means, again, that it it's
limited.

745
00:47:31,100 --> 00:47:34,620
But if I say it's pleasing to me
that they should not be used

746
00:47:34,620 --> 00:47:37,940
solely in times of winter, cold
or famine, then that means meat

747
00:47:37,940 --> 00:47:39,660
should be eaten at all times,
right?

748
00:47:39,860 --> 00:47:43,500
So that So if if it means solely
rather than accept, then the

749
00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:47,740
meaning kind of does flip with
it.

750
00:47:47,740 --> 00:47:53,460
So how can we tell which of
those is the the better reading?

751
00:47:53,580 --> 00:47:59,180
So there are arguments saying
look.

752
00:47:59,890 --> 00:48:02,890
It it definitely means accept
and.

753
00:48:03,130 --> 00:48:05,330
And I've seen interesting
arguments they've gone to like

754
00:48:05,370 --> 00:48:10,450
other sections in the Doctrine
Covenants where it clearly means

755
00:48:11,050 --> 00:48:16,610
where only means accept clearly.
But it's interesting because

756
00:48:18,050 --> 00:48:26,890
just in the same section, just a
verse over in verse 15 it also

757
00:48:26,890 --> 00:48:31,680
uses the word only, so it's.
It's a very close verse and also

758
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,560
it's a very similar sounding
verse to verse 13.

759
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:36,840
Right?
Verse 13 says it is pleasing

760
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,160
unto me that they should not be
used only in times of winter,

761
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:40,640
cold or famine.
Verse 15.

762
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,760
These hath God made for the use
of man only in times of famine

763
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,240
and excess hunger.
So they're like they're very

764
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:49,280
similar verses.
So it seems like what whatever,

765
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,240
whatever only means in 13, it's
going to mean the same thing in

766
00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:55,600
15.
Yeah, it seems like a reasonable

767
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,520
thing.
That's a that's a reasonable

768
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:03,430
assumption.
OK, and and also whatever it

769
00:49:03,430 --> 00:49:07,150
means, whatever.
Whatever you decide only means.

770
00:49:07,630 --> 00:49:12,350
Verse 13 and verse 15 are going
to mean opposite things, because

771
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:18,470
verse 13 says not only and verse
15 just says only.

772
00:49:19,310 --> 00:49:24,310
So whatever, whatever it is,
those two verses are going to be

773
00:49:24,310 --> 00:49:26,790
the opposite thing because
because they're not.

774
00:49:27,510 --> 00:49:33,100
OK.
So, so then all we have to do is

775
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:37,580
we kind of we kind of plug in
the meanings of accept, sorry,

776
00:49:37,580 --> 00:49:42,300
the meanings of only into these
two verses and understand that

777
00:49:42,300 --> 00:49:44,740
they are supposed to mean
something opposite and see if we

778
00:49:44,740 --> 00:49:47,260
get something ridiculous or
something that makes sense,

779
00:49:47,380 --> 00:49:49,500
right.
That's, that's, that's my,

780
00:49:50,140 --> 00:49:52,020
that's my process.
It's a Lubnis test.

781
00:49:52,020 --> 00:49:53,460
It's a good Lubnis test.
So it's a.

782
00:49:53,460 --> 00:49:55,140
Kind of a logical problem, a
logic problem.

783
00:49:55,700 --> 00:50:00,670
So verse 13.
We're going to say only means

784
00:50:00,710 --> 00:50:03,350
accept.
OK, OK, And.

785
00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:07,670
And we're going to and we're
going to get rid of the We're

786
00:50:07,910 --> 00:50:10,230
going to get rid of the comma.
OK for these readings here.

787
00:50:10,230 --> 00:50:14,510
So OK, so we already we'll all
read it again. 13 It's pleasing

788
00:50:14,510 --> 00:50:19,830
unto me that they should not be
used except should not be used

789
00:50:19,830 --> 00:50:21,710
except in times of winter cold
or famine.

790
00:50:21,710 --> 00:50:24,470
So that means meat should be
limited, right?

791
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:29,240
OK, but verse 15.
These have God made for the use

792
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:32,840
of man except in times of famine
and excess hunger.

793
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:38,680
So what that is saying is that
these so the animals God has

794
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:45,800
made for the use of man, man can
use them except when it's famine

795
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:50,360
or they're hungry.
Which to me sounds like a a

796
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,800
ridiculous reading.
Like why would God say?

797
00:50:54,150 --> 00:50:56,710
You can go ahead and use what
whatever the animals are.

798
00:50:56,830 --> 00:51:01,030
You can use these animals as
long as you're not starving.

799
00:51:01,030 --> 00:51:04,190
But if you are starving, then
these animals are off limits.

800
00:51:04,190 --> 00:51:05,230
Yeah, it doesn't make any.
Sense.

801
00:51:05,230 --> 00:51:06,710
That's a That's a ridiculous
reading.

802
00:51:06,710 --> 00:51:10,790
Yeah.
So which which means that to to

803
00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:15,270
my logic that means the word
only cannot mean accept.

804
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,120
Because if we, if we plug in,
accept into both of those verses

805
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,840
and then interpret it in a, you
know, read it in a consistent

806
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,600
way, then we end up with a
ridiculous result, right?

807
00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:31,560
OK, so let's try the other sense
of the word only, which is

808
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:37,520
solely so verse 13, pleasing
unto me that they should not be

809
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,200
used solely, not be used solely,
in times of winter colder

810
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,520
famine.
So that means meat should not be

811
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:44,960
limited to winter, colder
famine.

812
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,280
And then verse 15.
These hath God made for the use

813
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,680
of man solely in times of famine
and excess hunger.

814
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:56,040
So these, whatever these is,
there's some animals that God

815
00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:01,000
wants you to save or leave for
times when you really need it,

816
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:02,760
Right.
Which is not a ridiculous

817
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,880
reading, OK, But we just need to
know what these are.

818
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,640
Yeah.
OK, so it seems like solely is

819
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:14,970
the proper way to.
There's a proper sense of only

820
00:52:15,770 --> 00:52:17,850
because we don't get something
ridiculous, obviously

821
00:52:17,850 --> 00:52:24,130
ridiculous.
So but then that brings up the

822
00:52:24,130 --> 00:52:27,490
next problem is we need to know.
In verse 13 it says they should

823
00:52:27,490 --> 00:52:33,730
not be used and in verse 15 it
says these should be used or you

824
00:52:33,730 --> 00:52:38,170
know, are used in solely or only
in times of famine and excess

825
00:52:38,170 --> 00:52:39,690
hunter.
So we need to know what they and

826
00:52:39,690 --> 00:52:43,700
these mean.
Right.

827
00:52:44,540 --> 00:52:49,780
So go to verse 13.
What is they?

828
00:52:50,060 --> 00:52:52,860
Well, it's referring to verse
12.

829
00:52:53,780 --> 00:52:58,540
Beasts and fowls of the air.
They they are to be used

830
00:52:58,540 --> 00:53:03,060
sparingly.
OK, so they in verse 13 is the

831
00:53:03,380 --> 00:53:05,860
the beasts and the fowls.
And so is.

832
00:53:05,860 --> 00:53:08,740
Is that consistent with other
sections in the Doctrine

833
00:53:08,740 --> 00:53:12,140
Covenants?
Yes, in section 49.

834
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,120
Which we read a little bit of
already.

835
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,960
It says, behold, the beasts of
the field and the fowls of the

836
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:23,000
air are ordained for the use of
man for food that he might have

837
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,760
in abundance.
But woe unto that man that

838
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,480
sheddeth blood or wastes of
flesh and hath no need.

839
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,400
So that's that actually sounds
very similar.

840
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:33,560
Yeah.
Verse 9.

841
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:38,480
This is 19 and 21 of section 49.
Sound very similar to 12 and 13.

842
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:40,600
East of the field foul is the
heir.

843
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,280
Those are given to man even to
have an for food, even in

844
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,000
abundance.
But don't be wasting them.

845
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,160
That's what Section 49 seems to
say, and I think that's totally

846
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:52,960
consistent with Section 89 here
too.

847
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,360
I find the use of the word
abundance interesting there,

848
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,160
right?
I feel like the word abundance

849
00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:06,560
could have several connotations
here, right?

850
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:13,230
One of them is abundance being
enough right that that you have

851
00:54:13,710 --> 00:54:17,910
enough sustenance scientifically
speaking.

852
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:21,990
I know people say well you can
get protein from beans and

853
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:27,070
they're right, but it's a far
less effective and I've done

854
00:54:27,070 --> 00:54:28,710
some research and homework on
this.

855
00:54:29,630 --> 00:54:34,980
It's a far less desirable
mechanism for delivering it

856
00:54:34,980 --> 00:54:37,860
because the body's got to work
so much harder to extract that

857
00:54:37,860 --> 00:54:40,900
protein.
When you're talking about

858
00:54:40,900 --> 00:54:44,900
protein, which every human body
needs, it's the right down to

859
00:54:44,900 --> 00:54:47,860
the DNA level.
Right, protein delivers a lot of

860
00:54:47,860 --> 00:54:49,700
those amino acids.
A lot of those.

861
00:54:49,860 --> 00:54:51,780
You need nitrogen to be
nitrogen, Yeah.

862
00:54:52,420 --> 00:54:56,780
And so the, the preferred
delivery mechanism for our

863
00:54:56,780 --> 00:55:02,260
biology is meat.
And so he talks about that.

864
00:55:02,620 --> 00:55:05,820
The other thing that I think and
and this popped out to me, when

865
00:55:05,820 --> 00:55:10,900
I had my experience with my
doctor, I had never more

866
00:55:10,900 --> 00:55:13,460
abundance of health.
Oh, that's interesting.

867
00:55:13,860 --> 00:55:18,980
You might have in abundance that
yes, not just in not just in

868
00:55:18,980 --> 00:55:25,080
health, but free of pain not.
Just in calories, but in free of

869
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:26,720
pain.
Free of.

870
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:30,080
I wasn't having those crashes.
I had an abundance of energy.

871
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,440
So I find the word abundance in
49 to be very telling.

872
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:39,560
And I look here, here's the
thing, I I'm not so dogmatic on

873
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,520
this as to say could some people
do better on a vegetarian diet

874
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:47,000
given their makeup?
I I'm, I'm OK if that works for

875
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:54,140
you, great.
But speaking generally, you can

876
00:55:54,140 --> 00:55:56,900
tell what a vegan looks like, or
a vegetarian, right?

877
00:55:56,940 --> 00:55:59,180
They they don't look necessarily
healthy.

878
00:56:00,860 --> 00:56:01,980
Yeah, depending on how strict
they are.

879
00:56:02,020 --> 00:56:04,740
Yeah, they don't look like
they're living an abundant life,

880
00:56:05,780 --> 00:56:08,140
right?
So I tend.

881
00:56:08,140 --> 00:56:10,620
I tend that.
That word abundant, I think,

882
00:56:10,620 --> 00:56:13,660
carries some important
connotation that I think

883
00:56:13,660 --> 00:56:15,420
deserves a second look.
I love that.

884
00:56:15,860 --> 00:56:17,500
You know what else I I want to
say?

885
00:56:17,500 --> 00:56:20,340
And I I said this the last time
I was on your podcast.

886
00:56:20,340 --> 00:56:26,040
It was.
Every, every true principle,

887
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,440
even scientific principles,
which a new nutrition is.

888
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:32,240
Yeah, I mean, the science of
nutrition is the science of

889
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,000
chemistry and Physiology, right.
Every true scientific principle

890
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:37,720
is a gospel principle.
Yeah.

891
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:42,760
And so, so it we need, we need
the, we need the scriptures not

892
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,400
only to harmonize with the
previously given things, but we

893
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:51,170
need to harmonize with, yeah.
Scientific principles.

894
00:56:51,170 --> 00:56:52,490
Absolutely.
Yep.

895
00:56:52,690 --> 00:56:53,370
And.
And it's.

896
00:56:53,570 --> 00:56:55,730
Yeah.
And if it doesn't, then, then we

897
00:56:55,730 --> 00:56:58,330
have to look at more times than
not.

898
00:56:58,330 --> 00:57:02,010
It's our own interpretation,
It's our own traditions, It's

899
00:57:02,010 --> 00:57:05,650
what we've been brought up with
that that deserve, that deserve

900
00:57:05,650 --> 00:57:07,530
that second look.
An understanding problem?

901
00:57:07,810 --> 00:57:09,530
Yep.
So I find.

902
00:57:09,530 --> 00:57:13,730
So not only section 49 but
section 59 as well.

903
00:57:15,930 --> 00:57:18,050
You know this is 16 through 20,
says.

904
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,480
The fullness of the earth is
yours, the beasts of the field,

905
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:25,000
fowls of the air for food, for
raiment.

906
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,840
And verse 20.
It pleases God.

907
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:31,760
It pleases God that he hath
given all these things unto man.

908
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:35,400
You know so verse 13 you know.
That's verse 13 in the Word in

909
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,720
the Word of Wisdom.
It's pleasing unto me that they

910
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,280
should be used in a certain way.
Races verse or section 59 says

911
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,600
it pleases God that he has given
these things unto man.

912
00:57:46,170 --> 00:57:50,050
For this and they were made to
be used.

913
00:57:50,050 --> 00:57:51,770
They were made to be used with
judgment.

914
00:57:51,770 --> 00:57:56,890
But again, it's kind of like the
sparingly here.

915
00:57:56,890 --> 00:58:00,930
It says in section 59 it says
not to excess, neither by

916
00:58:00,930 --> 00:58:04,570
extortion.
And in verse 49 or section 49 it

917
00:58:04,570 --> 00:58:09,850
says not to waste flesh.
If you have no need, you know.

918
00:58:09,850 --> 00:58:12,290
So you know, when I read that, I
think about.

919
00:58:13,970 --> 00:58:18,970
You know, I've read the accounts
of that first, that advanced

920
00:58:18,970 --> 00:58:23,930
wagon train that came across the
plains in 1847.

921
00:58:25,210 --> 00:58:26,930
And they would, they would hunt
along the way.

922
00:58:27,930 --> 00:58:31,810
And there were some of the some
of the men who who wanted to

923
00:58:31,810 --> 00:58:37,810
just shoot bison and antelope
and deer just for fun and like.

924
00:58:38,250 --> 00:58:41,290
And I was like.
We do not do that.

925
00:58:41,610 --> 00:58:46,170
You you may like you should I I
will not allow you to kill more

926
00:58:46,170 --> 00:58:50,130
game than we can eat.
Because if we just waste that

927
00:58:50,130 --> 00:58:52,450
flesh and you're wasting your
ammunition and you're wasting

928
00:58:52,450 --> 00:58:54,810
your time.
Besides, like we got things to

929
00:58:54,810 --> 00:58:56,530
do.
Yes, those are for us to eat.

930
00:58:57,050 --> 00:58:59,850
Don't, don't kill more than than
you can use.

931
00:58:59,970 --> 00:59:01,010
Look, I mean, that's what it
means.

932
00:59:01,010 --> 00:59:06,290
I think you're talking to a guy
who up until about, I don't

933
00:59:06,330 --> 00:59:09,730
know, probably 10 years ago,
avid hunter, right?

934
00:59:11,010 --> 00:59:18,810
I love game.
Even in those days I couldn't

935
00:59:18,810 --> 00:59:22,690
get behind the idea of sport
hunting, right?

936
00:59:22,690 --> 00:59:25,130
It just did not sit well with
me.

937
00:59:27,210 --> 00:59:30,330
I didn't like it usually because
those guys and pardon the

938
00:59:30,330 --> 00:59:33,760
expression, we're full of
douchebagging us, right?

939
00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:36,280
I mean they look like they
stepped right out of a Cabela's

940
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,480
catalogue, right?
They can't hunt in the last

941
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:43,240
year's fashions, right?
And and so but I couldn't get

942
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:46,320
behind right.
I I felt like the animal itself

943
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:51,800
deserved more reverence than
than what was being afforded to

944
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,480
it.
To be interesting to to that and

945
00:59:54,840 --> 01:00:00,870
and yeah so yeah I I I would
agree with with that.

946
01:00:00,870 --> 01:00:03,750
I've never been a hunter really.
I have been hunting once but it

947
01:00:03,750 --> 01:00:08,950
was a total flop.
But yeah, but I have known you

948
01:00:08,950 --> 01:00:11,350
know I have uncles and stuff
that are hunters and I and I've

949
01:00:12,110 --> 01:00:15,830
and but I yeah, I've known that
they're very respectful.

950
01:00:15,910 --> 01:00:19,070
Oh yeah, they use the animal and
it's great.

951
01:00:19,710 --> 01:00:24,030
But yeah, but I have known
others who other hunters that

952
01:00:24,030 --> 01:00:27,990
will just.
They're kind of bloodthirsty,

953
01:00:28,030 --> 01:00:31,910
bloodthirsty.
And they'll just abuse the they.

954
01:00:31,910 --> 01:00:33,950
They won't.
I know.

955
01:00:34,110 --> 01:00:38,950
I know one guy who like, he
won't take the time to sight in

956
01:00:39,270 --> 01:00:40,550
his gun.
Oh, no.

957
01:00:40,590 --> 01:00:43,150
So he's just like shooting him
in the gut.

958
01:00:43,550 --> 01:00:46,310
And then they they run away and
he shoots another one, you know,

959
01:00:46,310 --> 01:00:50,190
because that one ran away.
And it's like you are abusing

960
01:00:50,550 --> 01:00:53,030
those animals.
That's that's crime, you know?

961
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:56,490
Yeah.
So anyway we'll get we'll we're

962
01:00:56,490 --> 01:01:01,530
gonna get into hunting here very
shortly So 'cause I think, I

963
01:01:01,530 --> 01:01:04,010
think the word of Wisdom
actually speaks on that.

964
01:01:04,610 --> 01:01:09,530
So OK, so we we kind of, I think
we established what they is in

965
01:01:09,570 --> 01:01:12,770
verse 13 E of the field fouls of
the air.

966
01:01:13,570 --> 01:01:17,210
And then so we need to know what
these is in verse 15.

967
01:01:17,210 --> 01:01:19,490
And I think kind of what we did
in verse 13 is we went to the

968
01:01:19,490 --> 01:01:23,050
verse previous.
In verse 15 we go to the verse

969
01:01:23,050 --> 01:01:30,610
previous and the verse previous
mentions beasts.

970
01:01:31,410 --> 01:01:34,330
Let's see beasts and fowls
again.

971
01:01:34,770 --> 01:01:37,890
But we kind of already we
already covered that in verse 12

972
01:01:37,890 --> 01:01:42,610
and 13 and we know that verse 15
because of the little logic

973
01:01:42,610 --> 01:01:46,210
problem we did with the the.
Not only we know that verse 15

974
01:01:46,210 --> 01:01:47,490
means the opposite.
So.

975
01:01:47,890 --> 01:01:52,850
So verse 15's I don't think is
talking about the beasts and the

976
01:01:53,300 --> 01:01:54,860
the beasts of the field and the
fowls of the air.

977
01:01:55,260 --> 01:02:00,020
I think what it's talking about
is the the immediate antecedent

978
01:02:00,100 --> 01:02:06,620
there, which in verse 14 it says
all wild animals that run or

979
01:02:06,620 --> 01:02:09,100
creep on the earth.
So I'll read verse 14 and 15

980
01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:13,340
together.
All grain is ordained for the

981
01:02:13,340 --> 01:02:17,420
use of man and of beasts to be
the staff of life, not only for

982
01:02:17,420 --> 01:02:20,020
man, but for the beasts of the
field, and the fowls of heaven,

983
01:02:20,820 --> 01:02:23,860
and all wild animals that run
and creep on the earth.

984
01:02:24,140 --> 01:02:28,740
And these hath God made for the
use of man only in times of

985
01:02:28,740 --> 01:02:32,340
famine and excess of hunger.
So I think that.

986
01:02:32,380 --> 01:02:34,500
He's obviously not talking about
the grains, right?

987
01:02:34,700 --> 01:02:39,420
Right, so which I actually have
heard people interpret it that

988
01:02:39,420 --> 01:02:42,580
way as well.
But yeah, I think the the most

989
01:02:42,580 --> 01:02:45,620
sense, the most logical, the
most coherent way to read all

990
01:02:45,620 --> 01:02:51,280
this is that verse 15 Bees is
talking about that little

991
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,160
parenthetical statement added
about the wild animals.

992
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:59,680
So I think these is the wild
animals as opposed to the beasts

993
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:04,600
and the fowls, right.
So, So here's where we get so

994
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:09,040
God expects us to use these two
kind of if there's three, three,

995
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:12,440
well, let's just say 2
categories of animals in a

996
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,920
different manner.
We have the beasts and the fowls

997
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,720
and those are good.
It is pleasing to God if we use

998
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:25,720
those all the time and not save
them for winter, colder famine.

999
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:31,360
So we can have the Passover and
we can, you know Abram can feed

1000
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:34,640
his three heavenly guests in the
feed in the day.

1001
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:37,440
Do you?
Smoke 40 pounds of brisket for

1002
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:42,280
for for his brethren, yes, for
his brethren, yeah, And and the

1003
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:44,280
prodigal son can have the fat
calf killed.

1004
01:03:44,280 --> 01:03:49,260
And it's all pleasing.
Then the other category of

1005
01:03:49,260 --> 01:03:53,060
animals is the wild animals, and
these meaning the wild animals

1006
01:03:53,420 --> 01:03:56,180
God has reserved for emergency
use.

1007
01:03:56,700 --> 01:04:00,580
So another way of separating
this, I think, is domesticated

1008
01:04:00,580 --> 01:04:06,060
animals and the wild animals.
And there are clean animals in

1009
01:04:06,060 --> 01:04:10,020
both categories, right?
But domesticated animals, the

1010
01:04:10,020 --> 01:04:15,380
cows and the sheep and the
chickens and the turkeys and and

1011
01:04:15,460 --> 01:04:19,430
the goats and whatever, yeah,
have those, have those all the

1012
01:04:19,430 --> 01:04:20,950
time.
Have a party.

1013
01:04:21,830 --> 01:04:26,590
Those are given to you to use
for your daily life and also for

1014
01:04:26,590 --> 01:04:29,750
these celebrations.
Celebratory times when you have

1015
01:04:29,950 --> 01:04:32,990
angelic visitors.
Yeah, then you'll pull out a

1016
01:04:32,990 --> 01:04:35,310
steak.
Dave, if you, if the three

1017
01:04:35,310 --> 01:04:38,070
heavenly visitors come to you,
you better pull out a steak and

1018
01:04:38,070 --> 01:04:40,110
serve a time, you know, You
know, I can give them a plate of

1019
01:04:40,110 --> 01:04:45,430
vegetables.
You might end up like able, you

1020
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:47,860
know.
Like cane cane, rather rather.

1021
01:04:47,860 --> 01:04:50,700
Than yeah well and and and I was
just thinking that right this

1022
01:04:51,340 --> 01:04:53,820
the use of animals goes way
back.

1023
01:04:53,820 --> 01:04:58,300
Right.
And I find it odd that we would

1024
01:04:58,300 --> 01:05:05,380
say that it's not well to
consume animals, but yet that

1025
01:05:05,380 --> 01:05:10,140
was the sacrifice that was
accepted right by the Lord.

1026
01:05:10,700 --> 01:05:15,530
So.
So just to kind of sum up now,

1027
01:05:15,530 --> 01:05:22,930
so we're going to so using
solely and also understanding

1028
01:05:22,930 --> 01:05:26,130
what the verses are referring
to, we have verse 13 which is

1029
01:05:26,130 --> 01:05:29,370
referring to clean domesticated
animals.

1030
01:05:30,290 --> 01:05:33,530
OK.
It is pleasing unto me that they

1031
01:05:33,530 --> 01:05:36,450
should not be used solely in
times of winter cooler fam.

1032
01:05:36,690 --> 01:05:39,690
So use the domesticated animals
all the time.

1033
01:05:39,690 --> 01:05:42,050
That is pleasing unto me.
We are, we are, we're not

1034
01:05:42,050 --> 01:05:43,650
supposed to waste them.
That is true.

1035
01:05:43,650 --> 01:05:46,170
But they are for our use all the
time.

1036
01:05:47,010 --> 01:05:52,290
Then in verse 15 and these
meaning wild animals, these hath

1037
01:05:52,290 --> 01:05:58,290
God made for the use of man
solely in times of famine and

1038
01:05:58,450 --> 01:06:01,690
excess of hunger.
So in emergency situations,

1039
01:06:02,410 --> 01:06:06,370
that's when you, that's when.
That's when the wild game is

1040
01:06:06,370 --> 01:06:09,450
there for you to eat in winter
cold or famine, OK, and excess

1041
01:06:09,450 --> 01:06:13,330
hunger.
Can I ask you a question back in

1042
01:06:13,330 --> 01:06:14,250
12?
Yeah.

1043
01:06:14,330 --> 01:06:15,810
What do you make of the word
sparingly?

1044
01:06:16,970 --> 01:06:20,210
OK, so I I do think it has a
double meaning.

1045
01:06:20,890 --> 01:06:25,410
OK, it's kind of like your
analysis of the word abundant.

1046
01:06:25,410 --> 01:06:31,170
I really like that.
So in on one hand, I do think it

1047
01:06:31,170 --> 01:06:38,570
means not to excess, like not
not wasting, not wasting the

1048
01:06:38,610 --> 01:06:42,410
even even the animals that we
are given not wasting them.

1049
01:06:43,060 --> 01:06:46,220
And I think that actually
applies to everything that the

1050
01:06:46,220 --> 01:06:49,700
Lord has put into our
stewardship, whether it's food.

1051
01:06:49,700 --> 01:06:52,420
Like I don't think we should
waste vegetables even if we can

1052
01:06:52,420 --> 01:06:55,220
avoid it or grain, right?
We don't waste any of that

1053
01:06:55,620 --> 01:06:59,540
including, but even maybe more,
especially because of the with

1054
01:06:59,540 --> 01:07:01,100
the animals because they're.
Sent to you.

1055
01:07:01,220 --> 01:07:03,740
They're, they're, they're a
little closer.

1056
01:07:03,860 --> 01:07:06,220
They're higher form of right.
Yeah, that's exactly right.

1057
01:07:07,620 --> 01:07:12,100
So I had read something a few
years back.

1058
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,480
That the word sparingly has
changed since the 1800s a little

1059
01:07:16,480 --> 01:07:21,240
bit and sparingly back then was
just that.

1060
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:27,200
Use As much of the animal as you
can, is how it would apply into

1061
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:33,680
the into this not sparingly in
terms of as little as possible,

1062
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:37,280
as little as possible.
But to make sure that you are

1063
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:39,940
consuming.
Wasting as little as possible?

1064
01:07:41,020 --> 01:07:43,100
Yes.
Using as much of the animal as

1065
01:07:43,500 --> 01:07:49,060
possible so sparingly has
changed a little bit over the

1066
01:07:49,060 --> 01:07:53,660
last 200 years or so.
Is that in the Webster's 1828I?

1067
01:07:53,660 --> 01:07:55,820
Can't remember it might be.
I have to look that up.

1068
01:07:56,220 --> 01:07:59,540
It might be.
I had one other question for you

1069
01:07:59,540 --> 01:08:02,620
here, and this goes a little bit
off topic, but still in the word

1070
01:08:02,620 --> 01:08:07,190
of wisdom here and.
This is one that I think I could

1071
01:08:07,190 --> 01:08:10,790
get some Flack for.
But this talks about wine,

1072
01:08:10,910 --> 01:08:13,630
right?
And it's first five that in as

1073
01:08:13,630 --> 01:08:18,390
much as any man drinketh wine or
strong strong drink among you,

1074
01:08:18,710 --> 01:08:21,790
behold, is not good.
Neither meet in the sight of

1075
01:08:21,790 --> 01:08:26,189
your father, only in assembling
yourselves together to OfferUp

1076
01:08:26,189 --> 01:08:29,830
your sacraments before him.
The word I find interesting.

1077
01:08:29,830 --> 01:08:32,189
There are sacraments, plural.
That's correct.

1078
01:08:32,910 --> 01:08:34,710
We're going to have to do a
whole podcast.

1079
01:08:35,090 --> 01:08:38,290
Long line.
OK, we we might have to do that.

1080
01:08:38,609 --> 01:08:42,970
But if it was for the sacrament,
right?

1081
01:08:43,770 --> 01:08:47,410
I think that that makes sense.
But sacraments, plural, all the

1082
01:08:47,410 --> 01:08:51,330
sudden that makes me wonder
about wedding celebrations,

1083
01:08:51,330 --> 01:08:52,890
right?
Weddings are a sacrament,

1084
01:08:53,050 --> 01:08:54,170
absolutely.
Right.

1085
01:08:54,170 --> 01:08:56,529
And and some other things.
It's good enough for Jesus.

1086
01:08:56,569 --> 01:08:59,210
Right.
And just just throwing it out

1087
01:08:59,210 --> 01:08:59,770
there.
That's right.

1088
01:08:59,930 --> 01:09:04,200
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, we we'll have to,

1089
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:06,520
we'll have to talk about that,
but that you're you're spot on

1090
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:09,439
there.
Sacraments, I'll just, I will

1091
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:14,920
mention this.
In Mormon speak, we tend to use

1092
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:22,120
the word ordinance right to when
we're talking about ceremonies,

1093
01:09:23,399 --> 01:09:30,520
you know, priesthood ceremonies,
so, so baptism and ordinance and

1094
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:34,640
ceilings and baby blessings and
blessing the sick, like those

1095
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:39,760
are all ordinances, you know,
ordaining to the priesthood and

1096
01:09:39,960 --> 01:09:43,800
so on.
In in most of the rest of the

1097
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,960
Christian world, those things
are called sacraments.

1098
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,880
Yeah.
So it will be the sacrament of

1099
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:55,920
baptism and the sacrament of the
Lord's Supper and the sacrament

1100
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:58,830
of ordination and the sacrament
of marriage and so on.

1101
01:10:00,270 --> 01:10:05,510
And so our words, our words have
changed a little bit in that

1102
01:10:05,510 --> 01:10:07,750
respect.
But yeah, but you go back to the

1103
01:10:08,350 --> 01:10:11,150
you kind of the original meaning
and sacraments meant these,

1104
01:10:11,670 --> 01:10:16,310
these religious ceremonies.
And yeah, so that that includes

1105
01:10:17,070 --> 01:10:20,590
baptisms, that includes the
sacrament of the Lord's Supper,

1106
01:10:20,990 --> 01:10:26,470
that includes Passover, that
includes, you know, and many

1107
01:10:26,470 --> 01:10:31,010
other examples of things.
The the thing that that I think

1108
01:10:31,010 --> 01:10:36,010
we miss a lot with the Word of
Wisdom is 1, going back to that

1109
01:10:36,010 --> 01:10:39,090
word abundance.
And I understand it's not in

1110
01:10:39,810 --> 01:10:42,290
this particular section, but
it's in 49.

1111
01:10:42,290 --> 01:10:45,450
It's in 59.
The Lord is telling you that

1112
01:10:46,290 --> 01:10:50,250
I've set things up so you don't
have to merely survive, yeah.

1113
01:10:50,610 --> 01:10:53,090
Right.
Your life is meant to be

1114
01:10:53,090 --> 01:10:58,440
celebrated, right?
The, the, the other thing is we

1115
01:10:58,440 --> 01:11:07,080
focus a low a lot on this in
terms of the the prohibitions,

1116
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:09,040
yeah.
Right.

1117
01:11:09,120 --> 01:11:12,360
I think Joseph's driving.
I think the Lord is driving

1118
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:17,120
something far more important to
Joseph in this section than

1119
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:20,600
simply don't drink coffee,
Right?

1120
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,280
So yeah, I agree.
I think.

1121
01:11:24,480 --> 01:11:26,840
I mean, the Word of Wisdom is
telling us how to celebrate.

1122
01:11:27,080 --> 01:11:32,160
Yeah, if you read it, I mean,
the sacraments are celebrations

1123
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:34,120
as well, right?
Right.

1124
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:39,440
Those are occasions for parties.
Yeah, yeah, something else.

1125
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:42,840
Where?
Where it talks in here, here it

1126
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,280
is in verse 4.
Behold, Verily, thus saith the

1127
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,050
Lord unto you.
In consequence of evils and

1128
01:11:48,050 --> 01:11:51,530
designs which do and will exist
in the hearts of conspiring men.

1129
01:11:51,530 --> 01:11:55,250
In the last days I've warned you
and forewarn you by giving unto

1130
01:11:55,250 --> 01:11:57,050
you this Word of Wisdom by
revelation.

1131
01:11:58,410 --> 01:12:00,330
Look, I'm, I'm going to go out
on a limb here.

1132
01:12:00,330 --> 01:12:03,330
I don't know how you feel, but I
think a lot of our food supply

1133
01:12:03,330 --> 01:12:10,250
is tainted and the more you can
get away from the processed and

1134
01:12:10,250 --> 01:12:12,530
the refined.
Quote Refinement.

1135
01:12:12,980 --> 01:12:14,420
Yeah, I think the better off
you're gonna be.

1136
01:12:14,420 --> 01:12:16,860
And I think that's another thing
Joseph's talking about.

1137
01:12:16,940 --> 01:12:19,260
Oh, absolutely, Yeah.
I think.

1138
01:12:19,860 --> 01:12:23,740
I think the scriptures have
plenty of things to say about

1139
01:12:24,020 --> 01:12:26,140
producing things yourself as
much as possible.

1140
01:12:26,380 --> 01:12:30,460
And, and I know it sounds weird
too, but one of the the things I

1141
01:12:30,460 --> 01:12:34,140
found most interesting in my in
my blood work was the amount of

1142
01:12:34,140 --> 01:12:37,420
testosterone that raised.
Oh yeah, just.

1143
01:12:37,850 --> 01:12:40,490
Just by eating kind of a cleaner
diet, right?

1144
01:12:40,490 --> 01:12:43,650
Not, not a lot of refined crap,
a lot of protein, a lot of

1145
01:12:43,650 --> 01:12:46,530
vegetables.
So very cool.

1146
01:12:46,730 --> 01:12:47,530
Yeah.
Abundant.

1147
01:12:47,890 --> 01:12:50,850
Abundant.
So going back to sparingly.

1148
01:12:51,410 --> 01:12:56,570
And you say in in one sense it
means not wasting something.

1149
01:12:57,210 --> 01:12:59,170
And it's interesting what you
said about how that's changed a

1150
01:12:59,170 --> 01:13:01,450
little bit.
In another sense of the word,

1151
01:13:01,450 --> 01:13:09,190
sparing means saving something.
It has to do with salvation.

1152
01:13:09,950 --> 01:13:15,070
And so in Exodus chapter 12.
Again, this is a Passover

1153
01:13:15,070 --> 01:13:19,830
reference, Exodus 1230, verse
26.

1154
01:13:19,830 --> 01:13:23,030
And when your children say to
you, what do you mean by this

1155
01:13:23,030 --> 01:13:26,870
service, you shall say it is the
sacrifice of the Lord's

1156
01:13:26,870 --> 01:13:29,470
Passover.
For he passed over the houses of

1157
01:13:29,470 --> 01:13:32,830
the people of Israel in Egypt
when he struck the Egyptians,

1158
01:13:32,830 --> 01:13:43,690
but spared our houses.
So in some sense eating like

1159
01:13:44,090 --> 01:13:49,210
they ate the Passover, they ate
the lamb in a sparing sense of

1160
01:13:49,210 --> 01:13:52,610
the word, because they were
being spared while they while

1161
01:13:52,610 --> 01:13:55,090
they ate it.
And it was pleasing to God that

1162
01:13:55,090 --> 01:13:59,090
they ate it, sparing in this
right by this sense of the word.

1163
01:13:59,890 --> 01:14:05,000
So I do think that there is kind
of a a Sacramento sense.

1164
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,480
It's a little bit hidden I will
admit, but but I think it can be

1165
01:14:08,480 --> 01:14:13,280
read that way.
So which is kind of a beautiful

1166
01:14:13,280 --> 01:14:22,040
thing actually be because as in
in Jewish tradition, like meat

1167
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:26,440
and wine like those are those
together are like the most

1168
01:14:26,440 --> 01:14:30,560
joyful thing like that that
represents the best kind of

1169
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:37,030
party And and this isn't just a
a party for any old thing.

1170
01:14:37,230 --> 01:14:41,510
Like we're talking about parties
where we're celebrating.

1171
01:14:41,590 --> 01:14:44,830
We have some holy reason to
celebrate, right.

1172
01:14:44,830 --> 01:14:49,110
The return of the prodigal son,
a wedding feast, the Passover.

1173
01:14:50,430 --> 01:14:54,110
And you know, whatever else it
is, we're, you know, the angelic

1174
01:14:54,110 --> 01:14:57,030
visitors.
We're having this meal and we

1175
01:14:57,030 --> 01:15:01,470
have the the most joyful
elements there, the wine and the

1176
01:15:01,470 --> 01:15:07,860
meat, and that is that is
pleasing to the Lord to use

1177
01:15:07,860 --> 01:15:12,100
these things that He's given us
for the the highest possible

1178
01:15:12,100 --> 01:15:19,540
purpose right now.
One thing I do want to make sure

1179
01:15:22,460 --> 01:15:24,500
that I make clear.
So although I do believe verse

1180
01:15:24,500 --> 01:15:29,980
15 is talking about not eating
wild animals except in these

1181
01:15:29,980 --> 01:15:34,130
emergency situations, I will
also say that the Word of Wisdom

1182
01:15:34,290 --> 01:15:37,930
is not saying that hunting is
sinful, right?

1183
01:15:38,290 --> 01:15:41,170
Because that would if we, if we
took that as the interpretation,

1184
01:15:41,770 --> 01:15:43,210
that would also contradict the
scripture.

1185
01:15:43,930 --> 01:15:48,410
Because you know Nephi, you know
Lehigh and his family, they're

1186
01:15:48,410 --> 01:15:51,010
going through wilderness,
they're hunting for their

1187
01:15:51,010 --> 01:15:54,770
sustenance, right?
And and never at any point is,

1188
01:15:54,930 --> 01:16:01,250
is hunting by itself condemned.
The only thing that's condemned

1189
01:16:01,250 --> 01:16:08,050
is if you're wasting, well, the
animals.

1190
01:16:08,450 --> 01:16:11,130
And and I think this even goes
back to one of the first

1191
01:16:11,130 --> 01:16:15,410
commandments that Adam's God
ever gave him, which was to tend

1192
01:16:15,410 --> 01:16:22,650
the garden.
Certainly if we if you take the

1193
01:16:24,010 --> 01:16:28,810
the scripture literal, that man
was made Lord over the whole

1194
01:16:28,810 --> 01:16:36,100
earth.
Right, he It's not simply a a a

1195
01:16:36,580 --> 01:16:40,180
blank check to go rape whatever
you want from it.

1196
01:16:40,580 --> 01:16:43,780
There is a sense of caretaking
here involved.

1197
01:16:43,780 --> 01:16:45,780
We tend as well.
And we tend as well.

1198
01:16:45,780 --> 01:16:49,540
And sometimes that means when
things get out of balance, you

1199
01:16:49,540 --> 01:16:52,660
got to put them back in balance.
And when it comes to hunting, I

1200
01:16:52,660 --> 01:16:57,180
tend to to often think.
It's probably a mechanism to

1201
01:16:57,180 --> 01:17:00,420
keep all that working and tend
to that garden.

1202
01:17:00,420 --> 01:17:02,100
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.

1203
01:17:02,100 --> 01:17:07,100
I mean that you could totally
read the Word of Wisdom to say

1204
01:17:07,260 --> 01:17:09,780
like that.
Yeah, that, that, that.

1205
01:17:09,780 --> 01:17:11,900
There is a time.
There is a time, right?

1206
01:17:12,340 --> 01:17:15,100
To haunt the animals.
And I do find it interesting

1207
01:17:15,100 --> 01:17:18,700
that in today's modern society
we there is a time for that,

1208
01:17:18,700 --> 01:17:21,900
right where where we say it is
lawful.

1209
01:17:22,180 --> 01:17:28,730
It's interesting also that we we
make hunting season in the cold

1210
01:17:28,770 --> 01:17:30,010
parts of the yes.
Don't we?

1211
01:17:30,010 --> 01:17:33,290
Yeah, we do.
And so I I I do find that rather

1212
01:17:33,290 --> 01:17:38,370
interesting.
I I think that I I just find

1213
01:17:38,370 --> 01:17:45,010
that that sometimes as Mormons
and we fall into maybe the old

1214
01:17:45,010 --> 01:17:50,330
Puritan trap of the more we the
more we suffer, the more holier

1215
01:17:50,330 --> 01:17:52,130
we are.
And certainly there's something

1216
01:17:52,130 --> 01:17:55,720
to be said for holy suffering.
I do believe that such a thing

1217
01:17:55,720 --> 01:18:04,080
exists, but sometimes it borders
on the the, the, the line of,

1218
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:08,600
you know, whipping ourselves, so
to speak, right, Where I

1219
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:11,080
sometimes feel like the Lord's
like, what are you doing?

1220
01:18:11,960 --> 01:18:15,560
I, I, I, I tried to make this
not what I said, right, not what

1221
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:17,600
I said.
And I want you to be happy.

1222
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:23,250
Interesting.
OK, so let me finish this

1223
01:18:23,250 --> 01:18:25,810
thought here.
Sorry, I keep No, no, this is

1224
01:18:25,810 --> 01:18:29,210
great.
Hunting is not sinful.

1225
01:18:30,250 --> 01:18:33,690
However, this is the Word of
Wisdom.

1226
01:18:34,570 --> 01:18:37,450
So right right up front of the
Word of the Word of Wisdom says

1227
01:18:37,450 --> 01:18:40,570
this is not by way of
commandment, but this is a word

1228
01:18:40,570 --> 01:18:43,050
of wisdom.
So this is this is something

1229
01:18:43,050 --> 01:18:46,050
wise I don't want.
And we're looking at this one

1230
01:18:46,050 --> 01:18:50,370
piece in particular.
I don't want you to use the the

1231
01:18:50,370 --> 01:18:54,220
wild animals unless you need to
or unless it's that time of

1232
01:18:54,220 --> 01:18:59,860
year.
So we look in the in the, in the

1233
01:18:59,860 --> 01:19:04,140
scriptures in general, there are
commandments given, but there's

1234
01:19:04,140 --> 01:19:08,220
also wisdom given too, things
that are not commandments.

1235
01:19:08,540 --> 01:19:12,540
But we can learn by people's
examples, right?

1236
01:19:14,020 --> 01:19:17,260
A lot of times the the Bible and
the Book of Mormon two a lot of

1237
01:19:17,260 --> 01:19:21,580
times there'll be stories and
this thing will happen and then

1238
01:19:21,580 --> 01:19:24,060
the Bible doesn't actually say
whether it was good or bad.

1239
01:19:24,900 --> 01:19:28,540
It just says what happened.
But we but I think we're meant

1240
01:19:28,580 --> 01:19:32,180
to like learn wisdom from that
like we see how things we see

1241
01:19:32,180 --> 01:19:33,500
the fruit that comes of it
right.

1242
01:19:33,500 --> 01:19:38,740
So so we so we look in the
scriptures and for the most part

1243
01:19:40,660 --> 01:19:44,460
those guys that are shepherds
that have domesticated animals

1244
01:19:45,180 --> 01:19:49,170
they are righteous.
So we have Abel right versus

1245
01:19:49,170 --> 01:19:54,370
Cain and we have Moses and
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David.

1246
01:19:54,370 --> 01:19:57,210
And even Jesus is called himself
the Good Shepherd.

1247
01:19:57,210 --> 01:20:00,290
Right.
So like shepherds, not always

1248
01:20:00,290 --> 01:20:05,330
but the the the main thrust of
the scriptures is like shepherds

1249
01:20:05,330 --> 01:20:08,450
are righteous right.
And then on the other hand we

1250
01:20:08,450 --> 01:20:13,450
have we have hunters and they
are portrayed as wicked.

1251
01:20:13,890 --> 01:20:18,700
So Nimrod and Esau.
And in the Book of Mormon it's

1252
01:20:18,700 --> 01:20:22,180
just like says the Lamanites
were I mean the Lamanites were

1253
01:20:22,180 --> 01:20:26,940
hunters went out looking for you
know beasts in the field and and

1254
01:20:26,980 --> 01:20:31,340
and we have Enos even right.
He goes out to hunt and it

1255
01:20:31,340 --> 01:20:35,500
doesn't say he's wicked, but it
we we understand that he's not.

1256
01:20:35,660 --> 01:20:38,620
You it's implied.
He's not on a repenting right.

1257
01:20:38,620 --> 01:20:41,180
He's not on a good when he
starts that hunt.

1258
01:20:41,180 --> 01:20:45,140
He's not on a good foundation
with the Lord and he has his he

1259
01:20:45,140 --> 01:20:49,220
has his wrestle and then he
doesn't finish his hunk, right?

1260
01:20:49,220 --> 01:20:50,300
Or we don't.
He doesn't read it.

1261
01:20:50,300 --> 01:20:53,660
He doesn't tell us that he he
had this experience with the

1262
01:20:53,660 --> 01:20:57,500
Lord and then he got that that
deer that he was looking for,

1263
01:20:57,500 --> 01:20:58,460
right?
Doesn't say that.

1264
01:20:59,260 --> 01:21:05,780
So anyway again so these are the
these are the wicked people or

1265
01:21:05,780 --> 01:21:10,060
people who need to repent.
Now again there are there are

1266
01:21:10,060 --> 01:21:13,750
wicked shepherds too.
The Bible also talks about the

1267
01:21:13,870 --> 01:21:16,790
the the evil shepherds of Israel
who are abusing the flock and

1268
01:21:16,790 --> 01:21:19,110
stuff and there's also righteous
examples of hunting.

1269
01:21:19,110 --> 01:21:21,950
I mentioned Nephi with his beau,
right?

1270
01:21:22,470 --> 01:21:25,990
So it's it's not always, but
it's just it's a it's a it's a

1271
01:21:25,990 --> 01:21:28,310
matter of wisdom.
Again, I think the scriptures

1272
01:21:28,310 --> 01:21:32,590
are showing by example, not by
commandment but by example that

1273
01:21:35,230 --> 01:21:37,470
of like the kind of behavior to
model.

1274
01:21:37,830 --> 01:21:41,510
And I will say also that as far
as as far as the commandments

1275
01:21:41,510 --> 01:21:46,220
are concerned, shepherds are
necessary, right.

1276
01:21:47,740 --> 01:21:50,540
Because those those sacrifices,
you know, the Passover needs to

1277
01:21:50,540 --> 01:21:53,580
be a lamb.
It's not, you know, a a moose is

1278
01:21:53,580 --> 01:21:55,620
not allowed.
So.

1279
01:21:57,340 --> 01:22:01,980
So we are allowed to hunt, but
we are required to shepherd.

1280
01:22:02,340 --> 01:22:04,460
Yeah.
But in a In a word, Yep.

1281
01:22:04,860 --> 01:22:11,380
Absolutely So And this is
actually the the Jewish

1282
01:22:11,380 --> 01:22:15,160
understanding that actually
mirrors, they look at the

1283
01:22:15,160 --> 01:22:19,240
scriptures and say Jews should
not be hunters, Jews should be

1284
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:22,400
shepherds.
And there are various reasons

1285
01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:25,520
for that they say that, but one
of them is the example that's

1286
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:35,520
set scriptures.
So, OK, I mean I think that's

1287
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:40,840
it's pretty much the crux of it.
Dude, Adam was awesome because I

1288
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:44,000
think.
I think for a lot of people, me

1289
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:47,200
included, this was something
that that I wrestled with,

1290
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:49,640
right?
That I tried to square up with

1291
01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:52,920
my religion that just didn't
seem to fit.

1292
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:57,080
Yeah, go ahead.
I remembered some.

1293
01:22:57,320 --> 01:22:58,680
Finish your thought.
And then I I remembered

1294
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:00,080
something.
Else I was just going to say it

1295
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:04,640
was, it was.
I think this was good because if

1296
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:09,400
if we don't, if we don't look at
this with a little bit of a

1297
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:11,450
critical eye.
It's like you said.

1298
01:23:11,450 --> 01:23:13,970
It seems like Scripture
contradicts itself.

1299
01:23:14,010 --> 01:23:17,210
And if Scripture contradicts
itself, God contradicts himself,

1300
01:23:17,690 --> 01:23:19,770
and then he becomes a God you
can't trust.

1301
01:23:19,930 --> 01:23:25,690
That's exactly right.
Now there's another question is

1302
01:23:25,690 --> 01:23:29,610
like, well, what do you do with
like statements from the

1303
01:23:29,610 --> 01:23:34,610
leaders, church presidents or
whatever so on.

1304
01:23:34,850 --> 01:23:39,150
On one hand, we have what Joseph
Fielding said, like even if our

1305
01:23:39,150 --> 01:23:44,270
leaders say something, if it
doesn't square up, then we set

1306
01:23:44,270 --> 01:23:48,430
it aside.
So maybe there is some of that.

1307
01:23:49,430 --> 01:23:52,710
But also I think there's the
what we talked about before,

1308
01:23:52,710 --> 01:23:56,230
like don't be too hasty though.
So one I know one of the most

1309
01:23:56,230 --> 01:24:03,870
famous experiences that's
related is I think it was

1310
01:24:03,870 --> 01:24:08,580
Lorenzo Snow.
He was out hunting and he

1311
01:24:08,580 --> 01:24:13,540
basically has this revelation
and and it's impressed upon his

1312
01:24:13,540 --> 01:24:18,300
mind like that he is doing
something wicked and he realizes

1313
01:24:18,300 --> 01:24:22,100
like he's convicted in his own
soul that what he was doing was

1314
01:24:22,100 --> 01:24:24,380
wrong.
He was out there hunting for the

1315
01:24:24,380 --> 01:24:28,980
blood of little birds or
something and and so he just

1316
01:24:28,980 --> 01:24:33,970
like he has this this experience
and he, you know, puts his rifle

1317
01:24:33,970 --> 01:24:37,930
back on his shoulder and walks
home and says he's never felt

1318
01:24:37,930 --> 01:24:41,130
the need to to do that again.
I don't, I don't have to quote

1319
01:24:41,130 --> 01:24:46,730
in front of me, but I think a
lot of times like that kind of

1320
01:24:46,730 --> 01:24:51,690
gets extrapolated to well, we
shouldn't eat animals because of

1321
01:24:51,690 --> 01:24:54,650
this revelation that Lorenzo
Snow had while he was out

1322
01:24:54,650 --> 01:24:58,170
hunting.
But if you read it the way that

1323
01:24:58,290 --> 01:25:02,350
I'm reading it, then his
revelation is perfectly

1324
01:25:02,350 --> 01:25:05,670
consistent with this reading
that yeah, maybe he was going

1325
01:25:05,670 --> 01:25:10,990
out to hunt and maybe it wasn't
right time and maybe it wasn't

1326
01:25:10,990 --> 01:25:13,150
to eat.
He just was doing it for sport.

1327
01:25:13,310 --> 01:25:15,710
And that is a wicked thing, that
that.

1328
01:25:16,030 --> 01:25:19,430
But we have to be careful that
we don't take that revelation

1329
01:25:19,430 --> 01:25:24,310
that was given for that specific
time and purpose to that.

1330
01:25:24,310 --> 01:25:28,270
One man to that one man and like
apply that broadly and to every

1331
01:25:28,270 --> 01:25:31,140
situation.
When I believe that the

1332
01:25:31,140 --> 01:25:36,180
Revelations actually make the
distinction between domesticated

1333
01:25:36,180 --> 01:25:39,900
and wild animals in the world
wisdom and in the examples given

1334
01:25:39,900 --> 01:25:44,020
in the scriptures about
shepherds versus hunters and and

1335
01:25:44,020 --> 01:25:47,060
in the Revelation given to you
know this inspiration.

1336
01:25:47,060 --> 01:25:49,900
I guess it wasn't like thus said
at the Lord but it was this

1337
01:25:50,060 --> 01:25:51,660
inspiration that Lorenzo Snow
has.

1338
01:25:52,460 --> 01:25:55,780
I think it just fits, actually.
It actually, on the face it

1339
01:25:55,780 --> 01:26:00,450
might seem like it supports
vegetarianism, but actually I

1340
01:26:00,450 --> 01:26:01,930
think it supports a more
nuanced.

1341
01:26:03,250 --> 01:26:08,570
I think so.
And and harmonious reading of

1342
01:26:08,570 --> 01:26:10,570
the scriptures.
Yep, I think so.

1343
01:26:10,570 --> 01:26:13,570
So that's what I would do with
those statements from the

1344
01:26:13,570 --> 01:26:16,450
prophets, the presidents of the
church or whatever.

1345
01:26:16,450 --> 01:26:19,530
Apostles.
I think many of them actually

1346
01:26:19,930 --> 01:26:23,850
harmonize with this beautifully
if you actually look at them a

1347
01:26:23,850 --> 01:26:24,690
little more.
Closely.

1348
01:26:24,690 --> 01:26:26,650
A little more critically, yeah.
I don't.

1349
01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:28,920
Yeah.
So I'm not, I'm not saying

1350
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:31,640
anything against, you know, what
the leaders of the church have

1351
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:35,000
said.
But I am speaking against one of

1352
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:36,960
1 popular interpretation of the
word it.

1353
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:39,160
Was absolutely couldn't agree
with you more.

1354
01:26:39,480 --> 01:26:42,320
And I think we're living in such
time now where again, I really

1355
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:45,600
believe our food supply is
tainted and it comes with a lot

1356
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:50,160
of consequences that makes it
hard for us to be able to hear

1357
01:26:50,160 --> 01:26:53,370
the Lord.
If you're in pain, if you

1358
01:26:53,370 --> 01:26:56,490
struggle with chronic fatigue
and pain, it's hard to

1359
01:26:56,490 --> 01:26:58,770
concentrate on anything wholly
or higher.

1360
01:27:00,210 --> 01:27:06,410
And and I can just say from my
own experience that that

1361
01:27:06,410 --> 01:27:10,170
switching things up has has been
a godsend.

1362
01:27:10,570 --> 01:27:15,340
Look, I couldn't do what I do
now if I felt like I did. 3-4

1363
01:27:15,340 --> 01:27:18,620
years ago, I believe it.
I couldn't work a nine to five,

1364
01:27:18,620 --> 01:27:21,340
I couldn't have a side job and I
definitely wouldn't have had the

1365
01:27:21,340 --> 01:27:27,260
energy to do a podcast right.
But things have changed, and

1366
01:27:27,620 --> 01:27:30,940
thankfully enough I I went ahead
and and prayed and got my own

1367
01:27:30,940 --> 01:27:34,300
revelation and went forward with
it despite my.

1368
01:27:35,130 --> 01:27:37,810
Apprehension that hey, this
doesn't square up real well.

1369
01:27:37,890 --> 01:27:39,650
Well, it did square up.
Well, it was just.

1370
01:27:39,650 --> 01:27:42,610
I didn't understand, Right.
That's a beautiful thing.

1371
01:27:42,730 --> 01:27:44,490
And and that's that is a good
thing.

1372
01:27:44,770 --> 01:27:48,530
So yeah, dude, this was awesome.
I appreciate you so much.

1373
01:27:48,770 --> 01:27:52,170
I always love our talks.
So if anyone's feeling bad out

1374
01:27:52,170 --> 01:27:53,690
there, eat some steak and lift
some weights.

1375
01:27:53,690 --> 01:27:56,410
So, all right, see everybody
next time.

1376
01:27:56,410 --> 01:28:29,130
See ya.
You're listening to the Mormon

1377
01:28:29,130 --> 01:28:30,490
Renegade podcast.