Episode #91: Making Mormon Fundamentalism Easier To Learn About & More Accessible To The Masses W/Michael & Nichole Sundals

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When I was first exploring
Mormon fundamentalism, I found

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the search to be hard just to
find people and groups to talk

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to.
It seemed to be just the nature

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of most fundamentalist kind of
be on the down low, and that was

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for good reason based on the
persecution that the community

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had endured.
But I just remember feeling

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frustrated that there wasn't a
place where I could go and just

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read about the various groups
and their different ideas in

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history.
Well, today on the podcast I

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have on Michael and Nicole
Sundels, they are spearheading a

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project that seeks to do just
that through a new website that

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they're building.
We talked about their journey

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into Mormon fundamentalism, how
they felt inspired to get

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involved with this work, what
the vision of this new project

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will be.
We also then take a deep dive

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into what Michael and Nicole
believe as far as doctrine and

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priesthood authority.
That's next on this episode of

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the Mormon Renegade podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse to become and

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raise men and women of virtue
and characters, a Herculean

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task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com.
Go to the bottom of the page,

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search out the blog post, and
order your copy today.

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I can bear personal testimony
from personal experience that

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this is an invaluable tool to
help you raise men and women of

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virtue and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast, Michael,
What's going on, man?

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Not too much, just just excited
to be here, are you?

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Yeah, good deal.
So and and you brought Nicole

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with you.
Yeah, this is my wife.

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We've been married about 8
years.

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Very cool.
So we're I'm super excited to

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talk to you.
So when when we first talked

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about this, I can kind of see it
coming together and I could see

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how it could be a useful tool as
a guy who came into

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fundamentalism cold Turkey,
right.

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I didn't know fundamentalists, I
didn't have any idea who they

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were, anything like that.
It it was a bit disconcerting,

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right?
Because everyone gave you the

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perfect pitch, but yet you're
you just didn't know, right.

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And So what What you're doing
here, I think is is absolutely

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awesome.
Well, thank you.

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I appreciate it.
We.

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We definitely felt the same way
when we came out of the Mother

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Church.
It was really hard to find

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exactly where to go next, right?
So real quick, because I always

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like to give people some
background on who you are.

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Were you both raised LDS?
I was baptized when I was 8, but

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we moved around so much.
I was never in a church for a

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very long period of time.
So, but then I got baptized when

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I was 30 into the.
And.

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So yeah, I I was raised I had a
really good dad who he was

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really specific about the
doctrines and putting truth 1st

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and so that that helped and was
very active and served a mission

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at 19.
So what was your at what point

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did you decide?
Decide.

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Okay, it's.
It's time for me to to make this

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change.
Well, I think that we, it was

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kind of a drawn out process
honestly.

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It started back in 2015, a
little bit after we got married.

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I was, and then it's in 2017 we
got called to work in the temple

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and so I worked in the at the
Vale actually in the Spokane, WA

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temple.
And I just, it just things

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didn't feel right.
And then the spirits kind of

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started asking me to ask the
hard questions about what was in

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the scriptures versus what was
happening in the church today.

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And so as I kind of looked at
that, we started to feel a

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bigger need to change.
And so eventually I just hit up

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a new stake president in the
area we moved to and kind of

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asked him some tough questions
about plural marriage.

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And then it just kind of went
more or less uphill from there.

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Gotcha.
So when you said things just

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didn't feel right, what do you
mean by?

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That well, I've had a lot of
colleagues in the church that

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did feel well.
I served in leadership a lot.

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But my when we got called to
work in the temple and I got my.

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Set apart and was given a
blessing.

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I was told that my back would
get.

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I had really bad back injury.
It would be fine and a variety

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of things.
And it didn't feel right to me.

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Like it just didn't seem very
inspired.

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And then and then it just
nothing did really happen like

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that.
My back didn't get better.

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Things didn't get better.
And so yeah, and the in the

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spirit, in the temple, honestly
we had some really spiritual

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experiences there.
But at the same time that also

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there was something about
working in there that just

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didn't quite feel great.
OK, so I remember when I went

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through the temple, even as a
convert, I remember thinking

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this doesn't flow quite right
the the ceremony itself,

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especially the endowment.
It seemed chopped up to to if if

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if that's a good description
here.

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And it wasn't till I discovered
fundamentalism and all the

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changes.
And then I through just months

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of digging, I was finally able
to find like a copy of the

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original endowment and I'm like,
oh, that's why it's feels

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chopped up because it's chopped
up right.

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And so that was that was really,
really kind of my first glance

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that okay things aren't exactly
as they said they were when when

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I was talking to to the
missionaries.

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Was there a specific point at
which you could remember Michael

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where you were like, okay, I
have to make a choice now

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because it's one thing to
recognize it, right?

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It's one thing to be like, yeah,
something's wrong here.

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But you know what?
I'm sure they got it up up top

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there in Salt Lake.
It's another thing to be like,

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oh crap, I'm not sure I can do
this anymore.

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Right.
Yeah, it was in 2020.

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I we we both actually were
feeling very drawn toward plural

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marriage and had a lot of
questions about it.

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And I specifically, I I reached
out to a state president that

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didn't even know me.
And I remember having a a very

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specific feeling that it, you
know, you don't need to do this,

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but if you do, you know, good.
Good for you.

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So I actually wrote him an
e-mail asked if we could meet up

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and discuss the doctrines of
plural marriage as well as just

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celestial marriage in general.
That's the turning point.

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So Nicole, how are you feeling
about this?

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Right.
Because you it sounds like you

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convert to the LDS church,
right.

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And then and then all of a
sudden your husband's like check

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this out, right.
I mean that's, that's that's a

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different kind of ball of wax
and you can slide that

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microphone between you.
Well, I mean, in 2017 we went

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through something where he
started having dreams about

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somebody that he knew in high
school that was going through a

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lot of hard times and stuff and
he was trying to save her and.

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And he told me about the dreams
and the feelings that he had

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about about her and what was
going on and and we that we

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started to explore it and and
look into it doctor early and

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tried to sort that out.
It didn't work out with her.

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She actually, she died in a
plane crash.

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Oh, I'm so sorry, A.
Year and a half ago, I think,

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no.
And how do you want to no?

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God, like, how did that feel for
you when you know just that

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whole transition of getting into
plural marriage?

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Oh, it had to be scary, right?
It was, yeah.

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Oh, yeah.
It was a lot of different

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things.
It was a lot of different

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things.
It was.

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I had to unlearn a lot of things
that were soiling my mind in the

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wrong ways.
You know, just.

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Overcoming to the traditions of
my father's and and my mother's

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and and I had to expand my heart
and do what I felt I should be

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doing and for.
The Lord, because I love the

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Lord so much and and and I just
know that's what he wants for

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us.
And it was really sad when she

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died.
We felt a great loss.

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So let me ask you this, because
I'm always more fascinated with

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the sisters when it comes to
plural marriage than I am the

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Brethren.
Right.

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So sorry.
Sorry about this, Michael.

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Just stay, stay, stay there for
a second.

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But real quick, When did you
gain a testimony of it?

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Was it gradual?
Was it a a moment?

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Well, there were a lot of
different stepping stones and.

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It just it came a little bit at
a time and it I had to overcome

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a lot of my weakness in my own
heart and in my own self and

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like kind of dive in there and
figure out why I was having

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these issues that I couldn't
find the source of.

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Like I would dive into my heart
and and be like why do I feel

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this way?
And I couldn't find a reason for

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it and and so I learned to
overcome that.

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And if you if you see the bigger
picture and you see all the love

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the Lord has for us all, you
know he really wants to expand

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his family righteously.
And so I know that in my heart,

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so awesome makes.
Sense.

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Did I answer your question?
Yeah, yeah.

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You know, no, that's, that's,
that's good.

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So I want to know, how did you
bring this up up to Nicole

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Michael because because again,
it's one thing to discover this

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and because my story so bat crap
crazy.

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I mean, I was a practicing
polygamist in the LDS church for

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five years and they never
figured it out while I was

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looking around.
So my story I understand is is

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odd, right?
Because also part part of the

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oddity of it is that both the
women who, you know, both my my

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first wife, Amber, and the woman
who would become my my second

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wife, it was kind of their idea,
right?

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And so I didn't, I didn't have
to do probably what you did, I

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would imagine, which is figure
out something's wrong and then

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have to go talk to to to Nicole
about it.

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What What did you figure it out
first?

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Did you guys do it together?
Were you keeping her abreast of

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what was happening as you were
studying?

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I mean, how'd that all go down?
You know, it's interesting

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because right after we had
gotten married, it must have

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only been three months or so
that I had had a really strong

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dream about the lady she
mentioned.

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And we had a lot of history in
high school and.

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At least his really close
friends and although there were

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some more there and so I just
let her know about that right

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away.
I felt like that was was on my

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mind.
I couldn't even shake the dream.

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It was so memorable.
That's brave, and I mean to.

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Be honest.
We were on the freeway when I

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told her about it driving.
That's even more brave.

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I mean, you could be risking a
car accident.

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Yeah.
So and then after that, it just

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sort of took time like
20/17/2018 right around there

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when we were working in the
temple.

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Just got into the scriptures and
prayed about it and talked to

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her about it.
And you know, she did the same

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thing.
She went and she studied and she

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prayed and told me right away
that she, she had a confirmation

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that that was going to be right
for us.

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She just didn't know when.
And so we just kind of and you

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know, and honestly, I respected
that decision because I I used

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to just love the handbook and
the policies of the church.

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So I was.
Just fine waiting, actually.

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Spent years trying to figure out
how this could be done within

227
00:12:54,830 --> 00:12:57,670
confines of the policies.
Oh, that's cute.

228
00:12:58,150 --> 00:12:59,870
That's that's cute.
Yeah.

229
00:13:01,710 --> 00:13:05,550
Kind of found a way if you just,
you know, do it internationally,

230
00:13:07,270 --> 00:13:08,830
well, you know what's
interesting?

231
00:13:09,910 --> 00:13:13,910
You know what's interesting is
that you know who Michael D

232
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:16,270
Quinn is.
I don't sounds familiar.

233
00:13:16,270 --> 00:13:20,680
He was a church historian who
later was excommunicated.

234
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,880
He and I disagree with some of
his work.

235
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,680
Right Other things he was pretty
good on.

236
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,840
But like he was asked once,
would you ever go back to the

237
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,000
LDS church?
And he said, I don't think so.

238
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:39,480
And when they asked him why, he
said because he also came out as

239
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,160
gay, right.
That was the other thing.

240
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,520
And so my first thought when I
heard the question was, oh,

241
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:46,920
because he's gay, right, That
that's not going to work.

242
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,960
But that wasn't it.
What he said was what they did

243
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,520
to the men in Africa once the
church started proselytizing in

244
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,920
Africa.
So in Africa, polygamy is not

245
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,800
illegal, but when the
missionaries were preaching, the

246
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,450
policy was choose one wife and
get rid of the others, and it

247
00:14:06,450 --> 00:14:08,130
broke up a ton of families, he
says.

248
00:14:08,130 --> 00:14:12,090
Until the Church rectifies that
what happened in Africa, I have

249
00:14:12,090 --> 00:14:15,290
no desire.
Which I thought was a pretty

250
00:14:15,290 --> 00:14:18,010
brave answer.
You know, that's actually one of

251
00:14:18,010 --> 00:14:20,130
the things I brought up
specifically that state

252
00:14:20,130 --> 00:14:23,690
president in the e-mail was,
what does the church do when you

253
00:14:23,690 --> 00:14:25,530
guys go out?
I think I even use the country,

254
00:14:25,530 --> 00:14:29,730
Africa specifically, and you
find people who are already

255
00:14:29,730 --> 00:14:31,650
living polygamy.
Do you just refuse to give the

256
00:14:31,650 --> 00:14:33,600
gospel to him?
You know, that question really

257
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,720
bothered him actually.
I think I'm more than anything

258
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,920
he brought that question up
because there was no, there was

259
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:40,880
no really good answer.
So that's really interesting to

260
00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,560
hear that it even broke families
up.

261
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,160
That's really too bad.
Yeah, absolutely.

262
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,920
So when did you leave the
church?

263
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,120
When were you guys like, Okay
Enough's enough.

264
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:55,520
We're we're out.
Well, I think that was 2021, so

265
00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,320
and we like I get to wear the
badge of excommunication.

266
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,580
That's a graduation.
Thank you.

267
00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:05,820
That's how I felt, you know, And
we got the high council together

268
00:15:05,820 --> 00:15:12,220
and it's kind of interesting
because to me, what I felt the

269
00:15:12,220 --> 00:15:16,140
Lord wanted me to do.
Gosh, this gets a little bit

270
00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:18,700
complicated.
We had a civil divorce for a

271
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:22,980
little while and and I was
really, we had prayed and talked

272
00:15:22,980 --> 00:15:24,700
about it, you know, getting the
plural marriage can be.

273
00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:26,820
It can be tough.
It got it.

274
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:30,340
Got a little sticky for a
second, yeah.

275
00:15:30,340 --> 00:15:32,860
Sure, but.
But I knew that the Lord, he

276
00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:35,180
told me to be a rock in the
right ways and it would work

277
00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:36,740
out.
And I explained her, you know,

278
00:15:36,860 --> 00:15:38,980
she understood my feelings.
I knew we were married.

279
00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:43,820
And as I looked at the doctor
and I recognized that almost

280
00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:46,780
every time the Lord spoke about
law in the scriptures, he was

281
00:15:46,780 --> 00:15:48,700
speaking about priesthood law,
right?

282
00:15:48,860 --> 00:15:52,540
And that I had made a vow to
only have intimate sexual

283
00:15:52,540 --> 00:15:55,790
relations with someone that I.
I was legally and lawfully

284
00:15:55,790 --> 00:15:59,630
married to and we were still
legally and lawfully married and

285
00:16:00,310 --> 00:16:03,070
and I knew that that's what the
Lord wanted me to understand.

286
00:16:03,070 --> 00:16:06,070
I was keeping my temple
covenants and to maintain an

287
00:16:06,070 --> 00:16:09,750
intimate relationship with her
despite the temporary civil

288
00:16:09,750 --> 00:16:12,630
divorce that we knew we'd had.
And that's specifically why I

289
00:16:12,630 --> 00:16:14,750
went to the state president,
because I had the integrity to

290
00:16:14,750 --> 00:16:18,310
say, hey, I I know that I'm
obeying the spirit and I know

291
00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:21,390
I'm obeying the doctrine and I
want to sit down and I want to

292
00:16:21,390 --> 00:16:23,750
be genuine with you about it and
if you have a problem.

293
00:16:24,390 --> 00:16:25,630
Go ahead and oust me and I
won't.

294
00:16:25,670 --> 00:16:28,230
I I understand that.
You know, so we got the whole

295
00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:32,430
high council together and we had
a big, big good discussion in

296
00:16:32,430 --> 00:16:33,870
there.
And they actually, I only talked

297
00:16:33,870 --> 00:16:36,510
about half an hour and Nicole
talked to you and board her

298
00:16:36,510 --> 00:16:39,070
testimony and then we left.
I mean, we got to get to hear

299
00:16:39,070 --> 00:16:40,470
the high Councilman argue in
there.

300
00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:42,110
That was quite nice.
We sat out in the foyer for a

301
00:16:42,110 --> 00:16:44,870
long time.
For about two hours they were in

302
00:16:44,870 --> 00:16:47,870
there debating about it.
Yeah, I mean we had, we had

303
00:16:47,870 --> 00:16:50,870
plenty of scripture to support
we were coming from so, but you

304
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:53,310
know, then we were finally out
and that was a huge blessing.

305
00:16:53,850 --> 00:16:55,730
It was really odd.
Just a few months later I was

306
00:16:55,730 --> 00:16:57,930
out mountain biking and that's
one of the things I can do for

307
00:16:57,930 --> 00:16:59,130
my back.
That really helps.

308
00:16:59,570 --> 00:17:02,610
And right when I was packed up
my mountain bike and was going

309
00:17:02,610 --> 00:17:06,810
home and this, this was the same
day I was mountain biking that I

310
00:17:06,810 --> 00:17:09,730
I had gotten actually a letter
back from the First Presidency

311
00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:11,609
because I appealed my
excommunication.

312
00:17:12,329 --> 00:17:14,250
Although I told him I wanted,
you know, go ahead and

313
00:17:14,250 --> 00:17:16,450
excommunicate me because I want
to live plural marriage.

314
00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:18,250
I put it right in my in my
letter.

315
00:17:18,550 --> 00:17:20,710
That'll do it.
Yeah, that'll do it.

316
00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:23,069
And I figured, you know, I
figured that was the right way

317
00:17:23,069 --> 00:17:26,790
to do it was be really genuine.
So, but I was leaving mountain

318
00:17:26,790 --> 00:17:29,710
biking and I had a really,
really clear and direct

319
00:17:29,710 --> 00:17:31,310
impression.
My back would start getting

320
00:17:31,310 --> 00:17:33,430
better.
And you know, honestly, I was

321
00:17:33,430 --> 00:17:35,910
like bedridden for almost two
years and.

322
00:17:35,910 --> 00:17:37,830
It was a little over two years.
Yeah, Nicole.

323
00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:39,910
Nicole took, she took really
good care of me.

324
00:17:39,910 --> 00:17:41,390
It was a really, it was a really
hard time.

325
00:17:41,390 --> 00:17:43,470
So, you know, it was a huge
blessing.

326
00:17:43,470 --> 00:17:45,390
Once it was done, I I felt way
better.

327
00:17:46,110 --> 00:17:48,520
That's awesome.
You know, I've always said the

328
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,040
LDS Church is the perfect
gateway drug to Mormonism.

329
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,960
So I, I, I really believe that,
right?

330
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,360
I mean it.
It's kind of the gateway drug to

331
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:02,640
to to real Mormonism.
And that's that's absolutely the

332
00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:04,200
truth.
Once you start looking at it,

333
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,120
you can't put it back in a box
either.

334
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:10,040
I mean, once you know, you know,
I tried putting it back in a box

335
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:11,720
and it just didn't work.
I agree.

336
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:19,680
So you you you almost have to to
go at it once you know it's like

337
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,080
taking that fruit right that
that that even the Ave. partook

338
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,840
of your eyes are opened.
There's no going back right.

339
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,880
You're not going to get back
into quote the garden that that

340
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:38,280
state of being naive, you know,
now things are out there.

341
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,160
So what was it like when you
guys first came out of the LDS

342
00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:44,680
church?
Did you immediately start

343
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,720
looking for another group to to
go and worship with?

344
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,040
But did you did you think, okay,
let's just do this ourselves for

345
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:53,960
a while?
I mean what what was it you guys

346
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,080
were doing?
What were you thinking?

347
00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,600
Well, we were really prayerful
and we felt we should do

348
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,960
everything we could to research,
I guess, fundamentalism, you

349
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,980
know, and so.
I actually continued to.

350
00:19:08,980 --> 00:19:11,500
I found the A UB's number after
doing a bit of studying and I

351
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:14,060
reached out and reached out
until they finally got back to

352
00:19:14,060 --> 00:19:15,060
me.
So that's kind of where the

353
00:19:15,060 --> 00:19:18,140
beginning of our journey was.
And we listened to the Darters

354
00:19:18,140 --> 00:19:19,580
book three times.
Love that.

355
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:22,380
So that also had a lot of really
pertinent information that

356
00:19:22,380 --> 00:19:25,500
helped lead me to the 1886
revelation because we didn't

357
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:30,260
know any fundamentalists besides
a gal I dated back in college a

358
00:19:30,260 --> 00:19:33,060
little bit who is a Le Baron and
we had nothing.

359
00:19:33,060 --> 00:19:35,380
I mean we had the Internet and
we right.

360
00:19:35,420 --> 00:19:37,820
So right.
Wow.

361
00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:43,940
So at what point then did have
you guys settled on anything yet

362
00:19:43,940 --> 00:19:46,460
or are you guys just still out
there doing your your thing?

363
00:19:47,140 --> 00:19:51,340
You know, it's kind of funny
because I'm the kind of guy who

364
00:19:51,740 --> 00:19:54,540
if I felt the Spirit and I felt
comfortable someplace and things

365
00:19:54,540 --> 00:19:56,940
added up, I would join.
But I actually felt really

366
00:19:56,940 --> 00:20:00,860
specifically guided to measure
the scripture law of priests

367
00:20:01,020 --> 00:20:04,220
succession really carefully and
then to follow that succession

368
00:20:04,220 --> 00:20:06,960
as carefully as I could.
And and based on my

369
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,920
understanding of the priesthood
law, it led me up to Pinesdale,

370
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,400
Montana, the Marvin Jessup's
priesthood line.

371
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:18,560
He got ordained by Allred into
the council in 1967 and he only

372
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:23,160
died in 2018 and there was no
big worthiness claims or any any

373
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,240
issues that were brought up.
And we haven't, we haven't

374
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,600
joined any anybody yet, even
though I really, really like the

375
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,400
guy that has been in the
position after Marvin Jessup.

376
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,200
I really like him.
Right on.

377
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:42,160
So let's talk about the project
cuz I think cuz it sounds like

378
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,680
the project may have been born
out of maybe your own

379
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,960
frustration and searching and
that sort of thing.

380
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,000
Is that a fair assessment?
No.

381
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,520
I mean in a sense, but but not
really.

382
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,760
What it really was is that as I,
as I tried to follow the

383
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,160
scripture law and meet with all
these different people, I I just

384
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,900
was really prompted to to ask
people about what was keeping

385
00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:06,980
them from being more united or
at communicable.

386
00:21:07,740 --> 00:21:11,740
And and I feel like through that
discussion with a lot of

387
00:21:11,740 --> 00:21:17,420
different people this idea was
born and but also a lot of

388
00:21:17,420 --> 00:21:19,860
prayer.
Not so much frustration.

389
00:21:19,860 --> 00:21:22,140
I'm okay.
I mean I do think that there's a

390
00:21:22,140 --> 00:21:24,300
big issue though and I think it
is frustrating.

391
00:21:25,260 --> 00:21:28,540
It does need to be fixed that
there's not solid records.

392
00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:32,020
There's not a great database to
sort all the priesthood laws and

393
00:21:32,020 --> 00:21:33,740
things out.
Okay.

394
00:21:33,740 --> 00:21:37,580
And now when you say laws, are
you talking about individual

395
00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:42,780
priesthood lines?
Like, you know, the a UB, the,

396
00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:45,660
the, the, the Peterson group,
any of those things?

397
00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:46,940
Is that what you're talking
about?

398
00:21:46,940 --> 00:21:55,630
Kind of a line to follow in some
sense in other senses, I guess I

399
00:21:55,630 --> 00:21:59,350
would I I view priesthood as
having different lines of

400
00:21:59,350 --> 00:22:04,390
authority in different ways and
so in in different lines have

401
00:22:04,390 --> 00:22:08,030
different laws that govern them.
And so just one example of

402
00:22:08,030 --> 00:22:12,110
course is that you can actually
try the high priest and of

403
00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:15,750
course the a UB broke that law
with Lynn Thompson big time.

404
00:22:15,910 --> 00:22:18,430
And so for me that was a big
that's out.

405
00:22:18,430 --> 00:22:22,640
So meanwhile though you have the
Universal Church of Christ.

406
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,280
And and so I learned about the
Universal Church of Christ the

407
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,560
first time when I was studying
at Liberty University in

408
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:34,520
Lynchburg, VA And that was a
huge eye opener to me just cuz

409
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,080
coming from the church, I had no
idea that they were overlapping

410
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,360
organizations.
And even today I talked to

411
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:41,960
people, I get people's eyes roll
over what?

412
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:48,580
And So what I mean by that is
that if we look in John Four,

413
00:22:48,980 --> 00:22:52,820
when Christ talks to the woman
at the well, he tells her, she

414
00:22:52,820 --> 00:22:55,980
asks about where she should be
worshipping basically, and his

415
00:22:55,980 --> 00:22:57,380
responses, it doesn't matter
where.

416
00:22:57,380 --> 00:22:59,460
What matters is that you worship
in spirit and truth.

417
00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:02,700
And then of course I would
connect that back to Mark 9 as

418
00:23:02,700 --> 00:23:06,540
well, where the apostles, they
see someone else casting out

419
00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:09,700
demons in the name of Jesus and
they're not part of their group

420
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:11,780
and they actually go and forbid
them from doing it.

421
00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:14,300
And the Lord tells us now those
who aren't against us are for

422
00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:16,070
us.
And we can go over to Revelation

423
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:21,230
12 and we see another one that
that clearly identifies who

424
00:23:21,230 --> 00:23:23,230
people are in relation to
Christ.

425
00:23:23,390 --> 00:23:26,550
And I would also take that back
to first knee 514 that there's

426
00:23:26,550 --> 00:23:28,750
really two churches, the Church
of the Lamb and the Church of

427
00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:31,230
the Devil.
But with that being said, I had

428
00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:34,910
really strong testimony of
Joseph Smith and and the

429
00:23:34,910 --> 00:23:37,630
restoration of actual priest and
lineage in the fullness of the

430
00:23:37,630 --> 00:23:41,240
gospel.
And And so I, I, I, I

431
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,120
fortunately after a little while
didn't make the mistake of

432
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:46,640
swinging one way or the other.
And I see that a lot like, oh

433
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,160
okay, I'm going to denounce all
of this because now I see that

434
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,720
all people are equal.
And over time it turned into,

435
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,760
well, all people are equal and
that is part of the Church of

436
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,640
Christ, you know, slave or free,
black or white.

437
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,320
But then over here I still see
that when you're looking through

438
00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,680
different priesthood lenses, you
have examples of, for example,

439
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,160
only the tribe of Levi can do
the sacrifices through their

440
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,980
lineage.
And so I once I became aware of

441
00:24:09,980 --> 00:24:13,180
that, it kind of became very eye
opening to me and also helped me

442
00:24:13,180 --> 00:24:16,820
want to help people recognize
that if they're good people with

443
00:24:16,820 --> 00:24:20,940
the testimony of the Lord, in
some sense they are united on

444
00:24:20,940 --> 00:24:23,380
some front.
In the universal Church.

445
00:24:23,940 --> 00:24:28,660
OK, so I could see that, but let
me push back here a little bit.

446
00:24:29,140 --> 00:24:31,380
Even though Christ says it
doesn't matter where you

447
00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:34,900
worship, it doesn't matter as
long as you worship in spirit.

448
00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:39,140
Christ also says not all those
that said Lord did.

449
00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:41,100
Did we not cast demons out in
your name?

450
00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:45,420
Did we not do these things?
And the and the Lord says I

451
00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:47,620
never knew you so how would you
account for that.

452
00:24:49,180 --> 00:24:51,860
Well I think that that really
would come down to your personal

453
00:24:51,860 --> 00:24:55,140
relationship with with Lord and
how well you come to know him

454
00:24:55,140 --> 00:24:58,380
and and gain hopefully gain
eternal life through that Ave.

455
00:24:58,940 --> 00:25:01,420
Because I mean on on one hand we
have all these different people

456
00:25:01,420 --> 00:25:04,700
who have priested lineage by
laying on his hands.

457
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,800
But they could be on that same
boat.

458
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:08,760
You know they could be in the
same boat.

459
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,040
Well I cast out demons your
name.

460
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:16,760
Well I never knew you you know
so but and and I mean I feel

461
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,000
like it's definitely open for
discussion.

462
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,560
I feel like all of these things
are open for huge discussion.

463
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,520
And I would go further to say
that there's flexibility on

464
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,880
faith.
Like I I feel confident.

465
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,520
I have researched the Universal
Church a lot, and I have a lot

466
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,600
of confidence that there is a
Universal Church.

467
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,870
But in no way does that mean the
Universal Church is necessarily

468
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:39,550
offering all of the things that
are going to get you to the

469
00:25:39,550 --> 00:25:41,830
Celestial Kingdom, or do you
work for the dead?

470
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:44,750
Just means that the good people
of Jesus Christ are going to

471
00:25:44,750 --> 00:25:47,030
receive different things and are
part.

472
00:25:47,030 --> 00:25:49,150
Of So explain what the universal
church is.

473
00:25:49,150 --> 00:25:51,590
I think it's important that we
define that term.

474
00:25:51,630 --> 00:25:54,790
Okay.
So what a lot of the Christians

475
00:25:54,790 --> 00:25:55,990
call it.
And I love studying.

476
00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:57,870
I love studying at Liberty
University.

477
00:25:57,870 --> 00:26:00,710
I found out the Christians,
especially the ones that are

478
00:26:00,710 --> 00:26:03,230
scholarly, they just put so much
effort into making sense of the

479
00:26:03,230 --> 00:26:07,090
one Bible that they have and
what they broke it down to.

480
00:26:07,250 --> 00:26:09,730
They call it the invisible
church as well as the universal

481
00:26:09,730 --> 00:26:11,970
church.
And so if I were to describe

482
00:26:11,970 --> 00:26:13,930
that, I think that the
scriptures described it as

483
00:26:13,930 --> 00:26:17,410
people who follow this, they get
the Holy Ghost and they follow

484
00:26:17,410 --> 00:26:22,770
it and they have a baptism of
fire and that they are repentant

485
00:26:22,770 --> 00:26:26,010
and they become like a child and
that they they try to keep the

486
00:26:26,010 --> 00:26:27,370
commandments and have a
testimony.

487
00:26:27,370 --> 00:26:28,770
That's how I would probably sum
that up.

488
00:26:30,010 --> 00:26:32,970
OK, let let me ask you this
because because I'm trying to to

489
00:26:33,170 --> 00:26:37,730
to put this into a Mormon
context, because Joseph Smith I

490
00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:41,250
think was pretty clear on this
idea of you needed priesthood

491
00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:45,650
authority to do baptisms and
especially the gift of the Holy

492
00:26:45,650 --> 00:26:50,810
Ghost.
So are these folks in the

493
00:26:50,810 --> 00:26:55,650
universal church as you put it?
Are they only receiving the

494
00:26:55,650 --> 00:26:57,690
influence of the Spirit at that
point?

495
00:26:58,660 --> 00:27:04,140
You know, I'm not sturdy enough
in any comprehensively enough to

496
00:27:04,140 --> 00:27:08,340
know that what I do, what I
would say and trust me when I

497
00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:10,820
say first of all that I I have a
strong testimony, the

498
00:27:10,820 --> 00:27:13,060
restoration of the fullness of
the gospel and the priesthood.

499
00:27:13,060 --> 00:27:16,540
So I'm not saying this is an
either or, just saying that

500
00:27:17,220 --> 00:27:20,180
there's really strong evidence
that those who have a testimony

501
00:27:20,180 --> 00:27:23,620
of Christ that are good people.
With good hearts just belong to.

502
00:27:24,460 --> 00:27:27,460
Universal Church.
They belong, yeah.

503
00:27:27,460 --> 00:27:30,380
They belong to the Church of the
Lamb and and that's that.

504
00:27:30,380 --> 00:27:32,940
That doesn't also, though that
doesn't have the same blessings

505
00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:35,100
necessarily as the fullness of
the gospel.

506
00:27:35,380 --> 00:27:38,100
Okay, it's right.
Two different.

507
00:27:38,260 --> 00:27:39,100
Okay.
All right.

508
00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:40,420
I think I see where you're going
there.

509
00:27:40,660 --> 00:27:41,980
Okay.
All right.

510
00:27:42,140 --> 00:27:47,580
So, so you find out about this
universal church and then as as

511
00:27:47,580 --> 00:27:50,860
you're looking at things here
and and you're you're thinking

512
00:27:50,860 --> 00:27:53,740
okay, so how how are each one of
these groups governed?

513
00:27:54,230 --> 00:27:59,470
How are they maintaining
priesthood law, as you put it?

514
00:28:00,950 --> 00:28:02,710
What?
What did you discover in that?

515
00:28:02,710 --> 00:28:05,230
That that there was just error
all over the place.

516
00:28:06,030 --> 00:28:09,110
Well, the first thing that I
kind of discovered was that when

517
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:11,790
I already knew this, most Latter
Day Saints aren't even familiar

518
00:28:11,910 --> 00:28:14,390
with the topic of the Universal
Church, which actually did used

519
00:28:14,390 --> 00:28:16,550
to be taught more commonly than
it is today.

520
00:28:18,430 --> 00:28:21,590
We even found an enzyme article
from just the 80s that was

521
00:28:21,630 --> 00:28:25,410
really good that that came down
and said right, right in there,

522
00:28:25,410 --> 00:28:28,530
that it doesn't matter who has
your records, it matters who has

523
00:28:28,530 --> 00:28:31,410
your heart.
But what I found as I talked to

524
00:28:31,410 --> 00:28:34,930
others is they were extremely
isolated into their priesthood

525
00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:37,850
lineage to the point, you know,
based on the hands coming down

526
00:28:37,850 --> 00:28:41,650
from Joseph Smith that they had
trouble seeing others is having

527
00:28:41,650 --> 00:28:43,490
an association with them on some
level.

528
00:28:44,540 --> 00:28:46,420
And and that was kind of
problematic and it was

529
00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:48,900
especially problematic because
okay that, you know, that's

530
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:50,260
great.
Let's just focus on the

531
00:28:50,260 --> 00:28:53,540
priesthood lineage let's, you
know, I can have a testimony

532
00:28:53,540 --> 00:28:55,820
that in some sense we're all
connected if we're good people

533
00:28:55,820 --> 00:28:58,140
and have a testimony in Christ.
But if you don't accept that,

534
00:28:58,660 --> 00:29:00,100
let's take a good look at your
records.

535
00:29:00,580 --> 00:29:04,060
And that was just a huge issue
too because most people, I felt

536
00:29:04,060 --> 00:29:05,540
like we're following the creeds
of men.

537
00:29:05,860 --> 00:29:08,620
I I feel like it was very
obvious with their intense

538
00:29:08,620 --> 00:29:12,180
policies the different groups
had, as well as their selective,

539
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:14,860
I felt like selective obedience
to different scriptures.

540
00:29:15,180 --> 00:29:18,820
Gotcha, gotcha.
So as we talked before, let me

541
00:29:18,820 --> 00:29:21,780
go back in my notes here because
I wanted to kind of make sure we

542
00:29:21,780 --> 00:29:26,220
hit these.
The it's called towards Zion,

543
00:29:26,220 --> 00:29:28,700
correct?
Is is kind of the name of of.

544
00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:31,060
Is it a movement?
Is it a website?

545
00:29:31,060 --> 00:29:31,900
What?
What is it?

546
00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:33,980
You know?
Thanks for asking and the name.

547
00:29:33,980 --> 00:29:36,020
The name may change.
I really want to wait to make

548
00:29:36,020 --> 00:29:40,950
certain final decisions based on
a lot of prayer and time,

549
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:42,350
including those who are going to
help.

550
00:29:42,350 --> 00:29:45,750
But I would call it a platform.
That's that's the word that

551
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:53,270
comes to my mind a lot.
It's supposed to be a way for

552
00:29:53,270 --> 00:29:57,510
people to receive the truth and
act on it individually, rather

553
00:29:57,510 --> 00:30:01,390
than having party ideas or
creeds of men.

554
00:30:04,430 --> 00:30:08,510
Okay.
So we talked specifically about.

555
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:15,000
About really two of the, oh I
don't want to say principles but

556
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,080
but kind of two of the the items
there that that you were really

557
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,880
focusing on.
So let's let's let's break that

558
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,280
down here a little bit.
The first one was organizing

559
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,000
kind of the the the groups who
claim the one man doctrine.

560
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,600
Yeah.
Is it OK if I Yeah, a little

561
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:36,260
spiel here.
So and ultimately so to go back

562
00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:39,180
though the way that this really
finally came to me was in

563
00:30:39,180 --> 00:30:41,140
Missouri.
I had had an impression, a

564
00:30:41,140 --> 00:30:42,820
strong one.
We need to make it to Missouri

565
00:30:43,340 --> 00:30:44,860
and go visit with some people
out there.

566
00:30:44,860 --> 00:30:47,940
And it was the first time and it
was and I spent a lot of time

567
00:30:47,940 --> 00:30:51,140
considering different things and
then all of these things just

568
00:30:51,140 --> 00:30:54,060
kind of came together and
clicked and and what I got was a

569
00:30:54,060 --> 00:30:56,500
three prong approach that we
ought to take.

570
00:30:58,980 --> 00:31:01,500
Not that I asked to take it.
It's just what's been put in my

571
00:31:01,500 --> 00:31:05,640
heart really.
And the way I I got this was

572
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:10,920
first to help restore order in
the priesthood and that that

573
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,520
should be done through record
collecting and through an

574
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,880
intense study of doctrinal law
based on what the pure

575
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,280
revelations are instead of the
change revelations.

576
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,040
And then the second one was to
restore power through

577
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,200
understanding.
And So what I mean by that is

578
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:32,400
that taking a comprehensive view
of of a topic in doctrine, like

579
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,600
we could take the topic of
plural marriage, for example,

580
00:31:35,030 --> 00:31:38,230
Taking a comprehensive view on a
plural marriage is a lot

581
00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:41,910
different than just finding some
references that fit our

582
00:31:41,910 --> 00:31:45,470
narrative or doing a deep study.
And so the way that that was

583
00:31:45,470 --> 00:31:49,630
given to me was that it was
meant to be a place where people

584
00:31:49,630 --> 00:31:52,790
could get online and they could,
they could search up a doctrine.

585
00:31:53,550 --> 00:31:56,150
And when they searched that
doctrine up, all they would find

586
00:31:56,950 --> 00:32:00,630
is pure doctrinal Canon
references except for at the

587
00:32:00,630 --> 00:32:02,910
bottom where you start.
And I would include the teaching

588
00:32:02,910 --> 00:32:05,310
to Joseph Smith and that, but I
would put the journal discourses

589
00:32:05,310 --> 00:32:09,470
and some stuff under it and that
that that way people could get

590
00:32:09,470 --> 00:32:11,870
on there and they can click on a
topic and they can find every

591
00:32:11,870 --> 00:32:13,750
single reference.
This isn't a keyword search or

592
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:15,670
anything.
And there's no words for men.

593
00:32:15,670 --> 00:32:17,430
There's no conclusions that we
give.

594
00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:19,950
There's no narrative spun.
And you click on plural

595
00:32:19,950 --> 00:32:21,310
marriage.
And 1st, for example, you see

596
00:32:21,310 --> 00:32:23,270
all your Book of Mormon
references and probably all your

597
00:32:23,270 --> 00:32:26,550
New Testament references and
your DMC references something of

598
00:32:26,550 --> 00:32:28,790
that nature and totally
comprehensive.

599
00:32:29,270 --> 00:32:32,510
And it also should be used to
ask hard questions with high

600
00:32:32,510 --> 00:32:35,830
traction in people's lives.
Like, well, what do I do if if

601
00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:38,230
I'm asked to do something I
shouldn't by my priesthood

602
00:32:38,230 --> 00:32:40,710
leader?
And then we just have a ton of

603
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:44,990
resources to answer that, as
well as antithesis resources

604
00:32:44,990 --> 00:32:47,390
that will demonstrate.
What I mean by antithesis is

605
00:32:47,630 --> 00:32:50,790
here's the exceptions, here's
the opposition to all the

606
00:32:50,790 --> 00:32:54,090
scriptures on this question.
That way it's comprehensive.

607
00:32:54,090 --> 00:32:57,010
People have a chance to feel the
spirit, get the truth and do it

608
00:32:57,010 --> 00:32:59,210
quick without putting a ton of
time into research.

609
00:33:00,130 --> 00:33:06,170
And then the third prong was
about community restoring

610
00:33:06,170 --> 00:33:07,810
community amongst the
fundamentalist.

611
00:33:08,330 --> 00:33:12,050
And the way that I felt about
that, what I understood in my

612
00:33:12,050 --> 00:33:17,210
mind, in my mind's eye, was had
to do with a website that had

613
00:33:17,210 --> 00:33:19,970
all things of life in it.
I wouldn't really necessarily

614
00:33:19,970 --> 00:33:23,060
compare it to KSL or Craigslist,
but I would say a lot of

615
00:33:23,060 --> 00:33:24,780
different things that
fundamentalists could just get

616
00:33:24,780 --> 00:33:27,780
on there and do.
They had divisions of filters

617
00:33:27,780 --> 00:33:30,300
for safety.
So you know if people want to

618
00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:32,460
work with someone that's a
verified in some sense or they

619
00:33:32,460 --> 00:33:34,980
want to work with a specific
group, they can put that in the

620
00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:36,860
filters.
So that those people who are

621
00:33:36,860 --> 00:33:40,300
posting things on there and and
people acting they feel like

622
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:42,900
they're working with someone
that they they hopefully trust

623
00:33:43,380 --> 00:33:46,300
as well as a.
And aside from that, there

624
00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:50,980
should be a survival, a survival
network probably something like

625
00:33:51,460 --> 00:33:53,900
if it would honestly came to my
mind is if all the people from

626
00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:56,780
Mexico up to Canada would just
get talking and get connected,

627
00:33:56,780 --> 00:33:59,740
maybe get some ham radios.
I would suggest getting a little

628
00:33:59,740 --> 00:34:03,020
EMP protected ones too.
Then if there's ever an issue

629
00:34:03,020 --> 00:34:05,660
one day all these guys can just
make contact with each other.

630
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:07,620
And I mean, there's
fundamentalist groups everywhere

631
00:34:07,620 --> 00:34:09,100
that aren't in contact with each
other.

632
00:34:10,820 --> 00:34:14,420
So you said a few things and I
want to clarify this because I

633
00:34:14,420 --> 00:34:17,219
think this is an important
point.

634
00:34:19,389 --> 00:34:22,070
Because I think it carries some
implications I want to make sure

635
00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:23,510
I'm understanding correctly
here.

636
00:34:24,350 --> 00:34:27,389
You said you felt called to
restore priesthood order.

637
00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:33,070
That's a big call.
I mean that that is is sounding

638
00:34:34,230 --> 00:34:37,070
very mighty and strong.
Yes, very mighty and strong.

639
00:34:41,230 --> 00:34:42,989
No, you're good.
No, no.

640
00:34:43,630 --> 00:34:45,190
Flip her around there.
There you go.

641
00:34:45,510 --> 00:34:49,290
So are.
And I'm just going to ask it

642
00:34:49,290 --> 00:34:51,010
bluntly, because that's how I
roll.

643
00:34:51,610 --> 00:34:54,250
Do you Do you feel like you're
the one mighty and strong?

644
00:34:54,610 --> 00:34:57,170
No, for starter, there is no one
mighty and strong.

645
00:34:57,810 --> 00:34:59,250
That's my opinion, at least not
yet.

646
00:34:59,250 --> 00:35:02,130
Or the work could be done.
And I would go further and say

647
00:35:02,130 --> 00:35:05,010
that my opinion is that that'll
be Michael the Archangel and

648
00:35:05,010 --> 00:35:06,650
that's just mine.
I know most people settle with

649
00:35:06,650 --> 00:35:08,530
Joseph Smith.
I know some people say you don't

650
00:35:08,530 --> 00:35:09,610
know.
Right.

651
00:35:09,650 --> 00:35:11,970
And in my mind, actually, I'm
glad you brought that up.

652
00:35:11,970 --> 00:35:14,170
That's actually my greatest fear
in this entire thing.

653
00:35:14,250 --> 00:35:16,890
And it's actually become a huge
fear that's almost kept me from

654
00:35:16,890 --> 00:35:20,170
working forward sometimes just
because I don't want people to

655
00:35:20,170 --> 00:35:21,770
think that I want to be mighty
and strong.

656
00:35:21,850 --> 00:35:24,450
I really don't care.
The first time I even heard that

657
00:35:24,450 --> 00:35:27,770
term is when I met with the a UB
back in like early 2022 or

658
00:35:27,770 --> 00:35:31,050
something like that.
They I asked him a couple things

659
00:35:31,050 --> 00:35:34,370
about going to Missouri as well
as you know how hard they tried

660
00:35:34,370 --> 00:35:36,570
to get you people united into
their group because they just

661
00:35:36,570 --> 00:35:39,890
seemed like they were isolating
others and I was really

662
00:35:39,890 --> 00:35:42,170
surprised that they said don't
be mighty and strong.

663
00:35:42,290 --> 00:35:44,450
So what are you talking about?
What's mighty and strong?

664
00:35:45,130 --> 00:35:46,850
It's like well don't steady the
arc.

665
00:35:46,890 --> 00:35:50,010
You know let me show you and and
so that's that was the first

666
00:35:50,010 --> 00:35:52,450
time I heard about it and it's
kind of bothered me ever since

667
00:35:53,970 --> 00:35:57,090
and and so and to go back when I
say restore order in the

668
00:35:57,090 --> 00:36:01,010
priesthood first of all I don't
feel like I don't feel like

669
00:36:01,010 --> 00:36:03,010
that's my responsibility or my
calling.

670
00:36:03,010 --> 00:36:06,050
I feel like that's what the Lord
wants done is just for people to

671
00:36:06,050 --> 00:36:09,100
organize the records and get
things straightened out.

672
00:36:10,620 --> 00:36:13,380
So you know it's just and
honestly that's that's a lot of

673
00:36:13,380 --> 00:36:17,020
how my life has had to be.
I kind of made a choice back on

674
00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:19,980
my mission, I made a choice and
I and I had a wonderful mission

675
00:36:19,980 --> 00:36:22,260
President.
He was a global leader and he

676
00:36:22,260 --> 00:36:24,660
got called on a mission.
I got to we went home just three

677
00:36:24,660 --> 00:36:26,940
weeks apart from each other.
So I got to be around him a lot.

678
00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:29,780
And even today, he's in a really
important position in the

679
00:36:29,780 --> 00:36:32,100
church.
And we do talk sometimes and and

680
00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:34,620
on my mission, he, he worked
really hard on getting us to

681
00:36:34,620 --> 00:36:36,580
just do everything we could to
follow the Lord.

682
00:36:37,250 --> 00:36:42,050
And you know, the story that
comes back to me on my mission

683
00:36:42,050 --> 00:36:44,290
that was so important is right
when I came out.

684
00:36:44,290 --> 00:36:45,890
I've been out probably 4 weeks
or so.

685
00:36:46,330 --> 00:36:50,010
There was a young man that I
felt really impressed to invite

686
00:36:50,010 --> 00:36:52,730
him to get baptized and he would
not talk to the missionaries.

687
00:36:52,730 --> 00:36:54,530
He would sit back in his room
all the time at mission

688
00:36:54,530 --> 00:36:55,890
Companion said don't talk to
that guy.

689
00:36:55,890 --> 00:36:57,050
It's just going to frustrate
him.

690
00:36:57,610 --> 00:36:59,890
And we left that house that day.
I never asked him.

691
00:36:59,890 --> 00:37:02,410
When we left, my heart started
burning and then my arm started

692
00:37:02,410 --> 00:37:03,890
tingling.
It was one of the strongest

693
00:37:03,890 --> 00:37:06,840
spiritual experiences I had.
So I went back to the house and

694
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,120
then I broke missionary policy
because I knew I needed to ask

695
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,840
if I could talk to him alone.
Went back to his room and said,

696
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,440
you know, this is kind of weird,
but I felt impressed to ask you

697
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,160
if you want to get baptized.
And he was like, wow, I've been

698
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,080
praying all morning to know if I
should get baptized.

699
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:24,560
And this is my answer you know
and so and just consecutively

700
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,520
throughout my life I decided
that when there's an opening

701
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,160
thread with the spirit and and
we have to take it or not.

702
00:37:31,610 --> 00:37:33,810
What I mean by opening thread I
don't know if you've watched the

703
00:37:33,810 --> 00:37:38,170
anime demon Slayer or not but in
some Bushido I I ran into

704
00:37:38,170 --> 00:37:41,890
studying Musashi.
Musashi he talked about the

705
00:37:41,890 --> 00:37:45,210
concept of when someone has a
they have a thread on you you're

706
00:37:45,210 --> 00:37:47,850
tangled and you still you sense
them closing in on you.

707
00:37:48,290 --> 00:37:50,050
You have to find a way to break
that thread.

708
00:37:50,610 --> 00:37:52,890
And so in my life I've I've seen
that with the spirit.

709
00:37:52,890 --> 00:37:55,410
When the spirit put something in
my heart there's usually a time

710
00:37:55,410 --> 00:37:57,050
constraint to get it done or not
do it.

711
00:37:57,810 --> 00:38:00,050
And I try to take that thread.
If I feel it, I'm going to close

712
00:38:00,050 --> 00:38:02,790
in and go and so that's really
all this is.

713
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:06,070
I just want to do what's been
put in my heart to do.

714
00:38:06,430 --> 00:38:09,070
By the Lord Okay.
I just wanted to clarify that

715
00:38:09,070 --> 00:38:10,750
because you said you felt called
to restore.

716
00:38:10,750 --> 00:38:13,990
And I'm like, we better, we
better dive into that a little

717
00:38:13,990 --> 00:38:14,910
bit.
Yeah.

718
00:38:14,910 --> 00:38:16,950
Well, I kind of felt called to
do a lot of things.

719
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:19,390
Even just going into
fundamentalism, looking into it,

720
00:38:19,390 --> 00:38:23,670
something I say I felt called to
do, you know, because I felt

721
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:25,110
like that was what was put in my
heart.

722
00:38:25,990 --> 00:38:29,990
So let's dive into these these
three prongs here a little bit.

723
00:38:31,310 --> 00:38:35,270
Because I I think it bears some
some explanation.

724
00:38:35,830 --> 00:38:40,110
So you said you're going to look
at all these these groups who

725
00:38:40,190 --> 00:38:43,630
who claim to have a one man and
then you're going to kind of

726
00:38:44,110 --> 00:38:47,590
organize and classify them by
how they keep priesthood law.

727
00:38:49,030 --> 00:38:51,230
Is that correct?
Sort of.

728
00:38:52,750 --> 00:38:55,870
More than following the group, I
just want to follow the laying

729
00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:57,590
on of hands in the scripture
laws.

730
00:38:58,460 --> 00:39:00,820
And the reason I say that is
because we learn early on from

731
00:39:00,820 --> 00:39:02,660
John Taylor passing Priested on
to John.

732
00:39:02,780 --> 00:39:07,060
Woolley that the groups, when he
passes Priested.

733
00:39:07,060 --> 00:39:09,220
John Woolley.
We see that groups don't

734
00:39:09,220 --> 00:39:12,380
necessarily aren't what holds
the presiding high priest

735
00:39:12,380 --> 00:39:14,500
position.
And I don't mean the one man

736
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:15,980
position.
I think this whole is deeply

737
00:39:15,980 --> 00:39:18,100
misunderstood.
But if there's a presiding high

738
00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:21,300
priest, it's not tied by group.
And so once I realized that it

739
00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:24,380
started to be a matter of okay.
Well, let's trace this down from

740
00:39:24,380 --> 00:39:27,460
John Woolley as carefully as we
can, rather than falling groups.

741
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:32,980
Okay.
So but you you said you were

742
00:39:32,980 --> 00:39:35,780
going to kind of organize these
one man groups right into

743
00:39:35,860 --> 00:39:39,020
something that people can can
look at right.

744
00:39:39,020 --> 00:39:43,020
So help me understand there what
when you when you say that what

745
00:39:43,020 --> 00:39:45,700
what's the end goal look like,
what's that going to look like?

746
00:39:45,820 --> 00:39:49,010
You know, I appreciate that
question a lot and I still don't

747
00:39:49,010 --> 00:39:52,410
know much about studying out the
group specifically on SO.

748
00:39:52,450 --> 00:39:54,650
And to break this down, there's
going to be several web pages.

749
00:39:54,770 --> 00:39:57,370
The one this will be honest, we
already have the domain name,

750
00:39:57,370 --> 00:40:02,370
it's called who has keys.org.
So on this it's going to look

751
00:40:02,370 --> 00:40:05,050
like, and you can see somewhat
of an example if you get on

752
00:40:05,050 --> 00:40:07,610
there now actually of an idea of
how it'll look, although it's

753
00:40:07,610 --> 00:40:09,930
nowhere near as good as it'll be
finished, but it'll be like

754
00:40:10,290 --> 00:40:13,250
taking someone like I say Joseph
Muss or somebody that we know is

755
00:40:13,250 --> 00:40:16,770
carefully connected to following
the scripture laws who got

756
00:40:16,770 --> 00:40:19,370
laying on of hands.
And then we're just going to do

757
00:40:19,410 --> 00:40:23,130
everything we can to document
Joseph Musser's life across

758
00:40:23,130 --> 00:40:26,490
religious borders.
So I think there's some

759
00:40:26,490 --> 00:40:29,410
sensitive information that maybe
should never come out for

760
00:40:29,410 --> 00:40:31,330
people's journals.
Like, I understand that I don't

761
00:40:31,330 --> 00:40:34,130
think we want harmful
information necessarily, but I

762
00:40:34,130 --> 00:40:36,690
don't know if I could, if I
could be the judge of.

763
00:40:36,690 --> 00:40:41,250
That let me ask you this, what
would be harmful, right?

764
00:40:41,250 --> 00:40:45,170
Because I'm look, I'm, I'm a
free speech guy.

765
00:40:45,590 --> 00:40:50,590
I'm a truth guy and look if if
those journals are of people who

766
00:40:50,590 --> 00:40:53,790
have passed, I don't think
there's such thing as harmful

767
00:40:53,790 --> 00:40:57,830
information, right?
I think that that information

768
00:40:57,830 --> 00:41:02,350
has to be out there or else what
what you you if you suppress

769
00:41:02,350 --> 00:41:05,350
that in any way.
I I worry that people can't make

770
00:41:05,350 --> 00:41:08,070
a truly informed decision.
Yeah, you know, and I actually,

771
00:41:08,110 --> 00:41:09,510
I don't disagree with you at
all.

772
00:41:10,810 --> 00:41:12,850
I actually agree with you
highly, which is why I'm so glad

773
00:41:12,850 --> 00:41:15,050
that we're going to be working
with a bunch of other inspired

774
00:41:15,050 --> 00:41:17,330
people.
Like I I find myself very

775
00:41:17,330 --> 00:41:21,050
valuable in my thinking.
You know, I I agree with you so.

776
00:41:21,210 --> 00:41:24,810
So what would be your definition
of harmful information then?

777
00:41:25,610 --> 00:41:32,290
You know, just if you get into
certain people's thoughts in

778
00:41:32,290 --> 00:41:35,770
their own personal journals and
the OR you find some things that

779
00:41:35,770 --> 00:41:39,270
are just really could affect
their family or something like

780
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:40,670
that that maybe shouldn't be
shared.

781
00:41:41,870 --> 00:41:44,230
So I don't really know what that
would be and honestly I don't

782
00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:46,190
want to be a judge of that.
By the time this gets really

783
00:41:46,190 --> 00:41:49,830
rolling, we're going to have,
when I say we, I don't mean to

784
00:41:49,830 --> 00:41:53,350
have any ownership and when I
say or any authority, just

785
00:41:53,350 --> 00:41:56,590
whoever it is that's helping
going to carefully peer review

786
00:41:56,670 --> 00:41:58,990
and analyze and check for
authenticity.

787
00:41:59,510 --> 00:42:02,310
And so if there is ever anything
harmful, and I don't know that

788
00:42:02,310 --> 00:42:04,390
there would be, that really
wouldn't even be up to me,

789
00:42:04,390 --> 00:42:09,170
hopefully.
That that was that was going to

790
00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:13,610
be another one of my questions
but but I I want again make sure

791
00:42:13,610 --> 00:42:15,090
I'm understanding this first
prong.

792
00:42:15,810 --> 00:42:20,290
So you're going to take all the
claims of of priesthood lineage

793
00:42:20,290 --> 00:42:26,410
so to speak from each one of
these groups and then just have

794
00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:30,170
like a I don't know if I'm
misunderstanding.

795
00:42:30,170 --> 00:42:32,570
Please correct me.
But almost like a Wikipedia page

796
00:42:32,570 --> 00:42:33,330
right?
Which?

797
00:42:34,010 --> 00:42:38,410
More in depth, obviously, but
we'll give kind of the history,

798
00:42:38,490 --> 00:42:43,610
the background and so people can
read it and understand where

799
00:42:43,610 --> 00:42:46,090
this group is coming from.
Is that correct?

800
00:42:46,090 --> 00:42:47,770
Yeah, absolutely.
So.

801
00:42:49,050 --> 00:42:51,250
And to be honest, there's
probably within each one of

802
00:42:51,250 --> 00:42:53,930
these three prongs, the way it
looks now is there will be 4

803
00:42:53,930 --> 00:42:58,650
different large responsibilities
handled hopefully all by

804
00:42:58,650 --> 00:43:02,250
different people.
And so once we've gotten the

805
00:43:02,250 --> 00:43:04,090
records and we start putting
them online, we're going to

806
00:43:04,090 --> 00:43:07,290
start breaking down hopefully
everything we can and then even

807
00:43:07,290 --> 00:43:08,770
measure it against scripture
law.

808
00:43:08,770 --> 00:43:12,770
So what I mean by that, for
example, is if someone, you

809
00:43:12,770 --> 00:43:15,170
know, we track every single
ordination they've had and when

810
00:43:15,170 --> 00:43:18,490
they had it and hopefully even
who did the ordinations get

811
00:43:18,490 --> 00:43:21,170
really specific and hopefully
all of them that they had in

812
00:43:21,170 --> 00:43:22,850
their lives.
And then we'll also look at all

813
00:43:22,850 --> 00:43:25,610
the claims against them and make
sure that's all posted on there

814
00:43:26,090 --> 00:43:27,530
and and the things that they
taught.

815
00:43:27,970 --> 00:43:31,230
And then this, the people who
are peer reviewing this will

816
00:43:31,230 --> 00:43:33,390
then be able to take
comprehensive scripture law,

817
00:43:33,390 --> 00:43:36,710
which is going to take a lot of
time to, I mean really to to

818
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:38,870
sort it out comprehensively.
You know, take that

819
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:42,110
comprehensive scripture law and
then measure it on some level

820
00:43:42,430 --> 00:43:45,430
with, you know, maybe a :) a
middle face or a frowny face

821
00:43:45,430 --> 00:43:48,510
maybe a number between 1:00 and
10:00 on on according to

822
00:43:48,510 --> 00:43:50,790
different people.
How well or the a whole bunch of

823
00:43:50,790 --> 00:43:53,430
people who looked at this how
well it all lined up.

824
00:43:53,870 --> 00:43:56,670
And so let's just say we find 12
different categories of

825
00:43:56,670 --> 00:43:59,310
scripture law for holding the
priesthood properly.

826
00:43:59,870 --> 00:44:02,390
We can look at each one of these
men and down at the bottom we'll

827
00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:04,510
see, well, maybe they scored a 7
out of 12.

828
00:44:04,510 --> 00:44:06,070
Some people will score 3 out of
12.

829
00:44:07,270 --> 00:44:10,190
And still, even with that being
said, there needs to be a

830
00:44:10,190 --> 00:44:14,750
respect for faith, because
ultimately nothing is really

831
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:17,230
about a science here.
Everything really still comes

832
00:44:17,230 --> 00:44:19,350
down to getting the spirit of
the Lord and people having their

833
00:44:19,350 --> 00:44:23,590
own agency.
So who's going to make the

834
00:44:23,590 --> 00:44:27,450
judgment calls?
I don't think anyone we'll

835
00:44:27,450 --> 00:44:28,850
really get to make a judgment
call.

836
00:44:28,970 --> 00:44:31,890
I think that, you know when I
talk about measuring thing

837
00:44:31,970 --> 00:44:36,970
against scripture law, there has
to be some analysis done by some

838
00:44:36,970 --> 00:44:40,530
group to say how well you know,
do we think this adds up.

839
00:44:40,530 --> 00:44:45,130
So you know there's there's some
some really good historians and

840
00:44:45,130 --> 00:44:47,850
friends that I've met that are
friends of yours too that I hope

841
00:44:47,850 --> 00:44:50,410
help out and they can they can
also help with that.

842
00:44:51,490 --> 00:44:53,450
But ultimately I don't think
there should be really any

843
00:44:53,450 --> 00:44:55,930
judgment calls.
You know it should sort of be

844
00:44:55,930 --> 00:45:00,930
like here's all the information
about this person and you know

845
00:45:00,930 --> 00:45:03,410
when we look and measured
against scripture law, this is

846
00:45:03,410 --> 00:45:07,850
about how well you know we can
say that they stuck with like

847
00:45:07,930 --> 00:45:10,610
you know there might be a red X
or a check mark on if there were

848
00:45:10,610 --> 00:45:12,610
two or three witnesses on that
kind of guy.

849
00:45:12,610 --> 00:45:14,730
So that's almost not really a
judgment call just looking at

850
00:45:14,730 --> 00:45:16,570
the records where there are two
or three witnesses.

851
00:45:16,570 --> 00:45:20,010
When this guy Gerald Peterson's
one example of that, you know, I

852
00:45:20,010 --> 00:45:24,600
looked at that situation a lot
and I just, you know, when he

853
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:29,440
says he got ordained by Rulan
Allred in in his upstairs office

854
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,000
or apartment, If I understand,
it just wasn't two or three

855
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,000
witnesses.
So I don't there's just really

856
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,200
no judgment call.
I just would have to give that

857
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,320
you know, an X or a low, you
know a 0 out of 10 or something.

858
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:41,080
I got you.
I got you.

859
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:42,320
Yeah.
No, that makes sense.

860
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:47,200
So you're going to stay away
from anything that's subjective.

861
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,760
You're just going to go by what
the scripture says and then?

862
00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:56,350
Basically put, like you said it,
an extra check to see if it hits

863
00:45:56,670 --> 00:45:58,670
yeah and all based on the
records.

864
00:45:58,750 --> 00:46:02,430
And so, you know, we'll find
some people, for example, have

865
00:46:02,510 --> 00:46:06,230
taught things that just don't
match doctrine and that that's

866
00:46:06,230 --> 00:46:08,670
going to probably be the hardest
one in my mind.

867
00:46:08,710 --> 00:46:10,470
Well, yeah, because who's
doctrine, right?

868
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:13,070
Are we talking a Bruce Art
Doctrine?

869
00:46:13,070 --> 00:46:14,750
Are we talking to Hinkley
Doctrine?

870
00:46:14,750 --> 00:46:16,390
Are we talking to Brigham
Doctrine?

871
00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:18,030
Are we talking to Joseph A
Doctrine?

872
00:46:18,430 --> 00:46:21,890
So who gets to be?
Who gets to make that call, You

873
00:46:21,890 --> 00:46:25,010
know, and I, I, I, I really
couldn't say right now how that

874
00:46:25,010 --> 00:46:27,450
needs to be done.
What I do know though is that

875
00:46:27,450 --> 00:46:30,930
Joseph Smith taught really well
that that's one of the best ways

876
00:46:30,930 --> 00:46:34,490
to detect false prophets is by
checking the doctors they teach

877
00:46:34,490 --> 00:46:37,810
and measuring it against the the
existing prophets in the words

878
00:46:37,810 --> 00:46:42,520
of Christ.
So it's going to take some time

879
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,920
and some revelation I think, and
a lot of people talking and

880
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,680
doing ideation as as this goes
along to really get the details

881
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,240
down.
But ultimately, it shouldn't

882
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:52,920
have to be a judgment call.
It should be scripture, law and

883
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,520
records.
And just how well do these

884
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,880
really end up adding up?
All right.

885
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,400
And then what?
Cuz there are you know there are

886
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:06,580
some phrase it this way.
If you look at it on the

887
00:47:06,580 --> 00:47:09,740
surface, there seems to be some
contradictions even within

888
00:47:09,740 --> 00:47:11,300
scripture, right?
Absolutely.

889
00:47:11,300 --> 00:47:13,100
Especially from a Mormon point
of view.

890
00:47:13,380 --> 00:47:15,220
So how are you going to deal
with that?

891
00:47:16,140 --> 00:47:18,940
You know, I don't think that we
need to deal with that, but

892
00:47:18,980 --> 00:47:21,220
actually I'm glad you brought
that up though because that

893
00:47:21,220 --> 00:47:24,260
really brings us kind of not
necessarily into the second

894
00:47:24,260 --> 00:47:27,420
prong, but it kind of does of
the understanding of

895
00:47:27,420 --> 00:47:32,420
comprehensive doctrine.
So can you remind me at your

896
00:47:32,420 --> 00:47:34,420
question was Dave, I'm sorry.
No, you're good.

897
00:47:34,420 --> 00:47:36,580
You're good.
When?

898
00:47:36,580 --> 00:47:39,300
When it's right because.
Because there there are

899
00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:42,300
contradictions sometimes even
between profits.

900
00:47:42,300 --> 00:47:44,140
We'll just focus on the
restoration right?

901
00:47:44,420 --> 00:47:48,340
There seems to be
contradictions, some of them

902
00:47:48,340 --> 00:47:50,780
very minor, some of them not so
minor.

903
00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:53,740
How do you wait those do you go,
do you.

904
00:47:54,660 --> 00:47:58,060
I mean, my inclination would
always be put put the most

905
00:47:58,060 --> 00:48:00,540
emphasis on Joseph Smith.
He's the wellspring of this

906
00:48:00,540 --> 00:48:02,300
whole thing.
Is that kind of what the plan is

907
00:48:02,300 --> 00:48:05,970
there?
I think that that absolutely

908
00:48:05,970 --> 00:48:09,130
will be a huge pivotal point on
figuring this out, especially

909
00:48:09,130 --> 00:48:11,050
since he's, you know, the
dispensational key holder.

910
00:48:11,050 --> 00:48:13,050
If it's going to come down to a
dispute, we need to take a good

911
00:48:13,050 --> 00:48:14,450
look at Joseph Smith in his
words.

912
00:48:15,490 --> 00:48:19,090
But really there needs to be a
comprehensive study on what

913
00:48:19,090 --> 00:48:23,930
constitutes scripture.
And that actually when we come,

914
00:48:23,970 --> 00:48:26,210
I know we're kind of still
focusing on the first prong, but

915
00:48:26,330 --> 00:48:29,730
when we get into the the second
prong of the attack, not really

916
00:48:29,730 --> 00:48:33,410
an attack but an effort, that
was what I felt inspired

917
00:48:33,410 --> 00:48:35,050
actually.
If people were okay with it

918
00:48:35,050 --> 00:48:37,410
should be the, you know, there
can be huge doctrinal studies

919
00:48:37,410 --> 00:48:39,730
done by groups and the one of
the very first one should be,

920
00:48:39,730 --> 00:48:44,050
let's really define a solid
doctrinal hierarchy and and

921
00:48:44,050 --> 00:48:46,010
stick to it based on what the
scriptures teach.

922
00:48:46,010 --> 00:48:50,650
Yeah.
So how do you treat that though?

923
00:48:50,650 --> 00:48:53,050
Because you said really defining
scripture.

924
00:48:53,050 --> 00:48:57,850
Well, the the thing I always dug
about Mormonism was is that we

925
00:48:57,850 --> 00:48:59,830
have an open cannon.
Right.

926
00:49:00,070 --> 00:49:04,470
I mean in DNC where it says
anything that comes from the the

927
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:08,590
mouths of the servants when
moved upon by the Holy Ghost is

928
00:49:08,870 --> 00:49:12,790
is scripture.
So again, I mean because there's

929
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:15,870
got to be a cutoff point, right?
There's got to be a point.

930
00:49:15,870 --> 00:49:18,630
What you say okay.
Is it this date?

931
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:20,870
Is it this man?
What what is it?

932
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:22,510
You know what is that cutoff
point?

933
00:49:22,830 --> 00:49:26,090
Because now you're putting.
Somebody, whether it's yourself

934
00:49:26,090 --> 00:49:29,610
or somebody else, into and.
And I'm not trying to to be

935
00:49:29,610 --> 00:49:31,330
argumentative.
I'm trying to understand.

936
00:49:31,330 --> 00:49:34,610
I love this kind of discussion.
So at some point you've got to

937
00:49:34,610 --> 00:49:37,890
put somebody you you've got to
draw the line and say, okay

938
00:49:37,890 --> 00:49:41,290
this, this can't work because
it's either past the state or

939
00:49:41,290 --> 00:49:43,850
that's from this guy or
whatever.

940
00:49:43,930 --> 00:49:45,290
How how are you going to do
that?

941
00:49:45,290 --> 00:49:48,570
Are you going to analyze each
statement by each prophet, both

942
00:49:48,570 --> 00:49:51,530
LDS and fundamentalist, and then
say okay?

943
00:49:51,530 --> 00:49:53,930
Well, this lines up with
scripture, So this is okay.

944
00:49:54,510 --> 00:49:57,190
You know, I'm, I'm really glad
you're asking this because it's

945
00:49:57,190 --> 00:50:00,590
actually, I think touches on the
whole point of of this, which is

946
00:50:00,590 --> 00:50:05,070
that it's okay, it's okay to
present the truth and it's okay

947
00:50:05,070 --> 00:50:08,310
to present every facet of the
truth, including the exceptions,

948
00:50:08,510 --> 00:50:10,590
and then letting people decide
that themselves.

949
00:50:10,910 --> 00:50:12,870
It doesn't have to be a
conclusion on the narrative

950
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:15,910
spun.
So I mean, you know, I look at

951
00:50:16,310 --> 00:50:21,580
Ether.
I, I look at the introduction to

952
00:50:21,580 --> 00:50:24,420
the Book of Mormon and all these
different places where even the

953
00:50:24,420 --> 00:50:28,340
prophets, some of the ones we
respect most will tell you like

954
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:30,980
I think it was a brother Jared
and Ether that, you know, please

955
00:50:30,980 --> 00:50:34,660
forgive any mistakes here.
We're weak and writing and and

956
00:50:34,820 --> 00:50:36,580
especially when you bring all
the scriptures together

957
00:50:36,580 --> 00:50:38,900
comprehensively, you'll find
contradictions and there is some

958
00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:41,500
beauty in that actually.
And I feel like the beauty in

959
00:50:41,500 --> 00:50:45,860
the contradiction sometimes is
that it it allows people to kind

960
00:50:46,460 --> 00:50:49,340
of going back that universal
church thing, have the spirit in

961
00:50:49,340 --> 00:50:53,180
their lives and have faith to
know hopefully know what's right

962
00:50:53,180 --> 00:50:55,820
and best for them and their
family and what's really true.

963
00:50:56,340 --> 00:50:59,100
And it was the contradiction.
If the when the contradictions

964
00:50:59,100 --> 00:51:02,260
are found, I hope that they're
actually really clearly

965
00:51:02,260 --> 00:51:05,340
demonstrated so that people have
that open minded view.

966
00:51:06,860 --> 00:51:12,420
All right, excuse me.
So let's roll on to to the

967
00:51:12,420 --> 00:51:14,980
second prompt, since since we
kind of started to touch on it,

968
00:51:16,340 --> 00:51:18,180
one of them here was
Historicity.

969
00:51:18,700 --> 00:51:21,100
That that you had mentioned in
our phone conversation.

970
00:51:21,980 --> 00:51:23,700
What did you mean by
historicity?

971
00:51:23,700 --> 00:51:27,460
You don't have to forgive me.
Honestly, I'm not sure if I'm

972
00:51:27,460 --> 00:51:28,820
mixed up or not.
Okay.

973
00:51:28,820 --> 00:51:29,780
No problem.
But I could.

974
00:51:30,180 --> 00:51:30,740
Oh, sorry.
Go ahead.

975
00:51:30,780 --> 00:51:32,660
I say go ahead or I could share
on that.

976
00:51:32,660 --> 00:51:34,940
If you want me to go ahead,
there's there's going to be

977
00:51:34,940 --> 00:51:37,620
quite a few things to do on
that.

978
00:51:37,620 --> 00:51:40,460
So I'm just going to kind of go
over a few of them.

979
00:51:42,140 --> 00:51:44,700
One of them, of course, is going
to be organizing the doctrines

980
00:51:44,780 --> 00:51:48,400
and doing a lot of ideation.
And so whatever's on there has

981
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,480
to be really clean.
They need to be put online to

982
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:56,400
look really well and and then
there needs to be a lot of

983
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,480
hopefully everyone can help.
So we're actually going to have

984
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,800
this set up so that people can
just get online if they want,

985
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,440
look at the topics that are
being studied, they can just

986
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,720
start to submit references
themselves that they found in

987
00:52:09,720 --> 00:52:12,420
the scriptures.
And so they won't show up on the

988
00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:14,100
web page right away.
There'll be a whole board of

989
00:52:14,100 --> 00:52:15,540
people.
Hopefully they can take a look

990
00:52:15,540 --> 00:52:17,580
at this and just make sure it's
actually applicable.

991
00:52:17,900 --> 00:52:20,100
Then they can put it on there.
So hopefully we can start to

992
00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:27,060
gather references on doctrines
really fast and then and this

993
00:52:27,060 --> 00:52:30,780
gets kind of wild.
But I think a huge part of this,

994
00:52:30,780 --> 00:52:32,700
something that keeps coming to
my mind that would be a huge

995
00:52:32,700 --> 00:52:36,100
project would be to see the a
fresh set of scriptures without

996
00:52:36,100 --> 00:52:40,430
all the churches cross
references and footnotes based

997
00:52:40,430 --> 00:52:45,190
on what the actual revelation
stated very near or at the time

998
00:52:45,190 --> 00:52:48,590
they were revealed.
That way people can get some

999
00:52:48,590 --> 00:52:54,390
really pure water.
You know, I, I sorry Dave, as an

1000
00:52:54,390 --> 00:52:58,630
example of this reading over the
doctrines of Christ recently in

1001
00:52:58,630 --> 00:53:03,550
3rd Nephi we I started noticing
how the verses the way they were

1002
00:53:03,550 --> 00:53:05,830
set up were compartmentalizing
all the thoughts.

1003
00:53:06,460 --> 00:53:08,180
And we are reading over the
doctrines of Christ on

1004
00:53:08,180 --> 00:53:10,260
contending what it meant.
You know taught to have the

1005
00:53:10,260 --> 00:53:14,180
spirit of contention.
And once we took a close look it

1006
00:53:14,180 --> 00:53:16,660
wasn't at all what I thought the
overall message here was

1007
00:53:16,660 --> 00:53:20,260
something like when it comes to
the word of God, don't contend

1008
00:53:20,260 --> 00:53:22,700
against it and definitely don't
contend against the word of God

1009
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:26,340
with arguing and fighting.
And so I said, let's get, let's

1010
00:53:26,340 --> 00:53:28,620
get the original Book of Mormon
out here and let's take a good

1011
00:53:28,620 --> 00:53:31,420
look at this.
And we found that this whole

1012
00:53:31,420 --> 00:53:35,370
entire doctrines of Christ was
just one giant paragraph that

1013
00:53:35,370 --> 00:53:37,370
lasted almost 2 pages or
something like that.

1014
00:53:37,610 --> 00:53:40,770
You know, there wasn't broken
down into blocks to

1015
00:53:40,770 --> 00:53:43,250
compartmentalize our thoughts.
It was strung together in one

1016
00:53:43,250 --> 00:53:46,970
clean paragraph.
So that's going to be a huge, a

1017
00:53:46,970 --> 00:53:51,530
huge effort to try to publish a
new set of a fresh set of

1018
00:53:51,530 --> 00:53:54,490
scriptures.
But I I know it could be done.

1019
00:53:55,720 --> 00:53:59,240
So real quick, you talked about
people being on the board, and

1020
00:53:59,240 --> 00:54:01,760
I'm not looking for names, I'm
looking for qualities.

1021
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,160
What kind of people?
What kind of qualities do you

1022
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,920
want to see people possessed in
order to be on that board?

1023
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,960
I think the first thing is the
course that they want to be

1024
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,520
there and they think they felt
the spirit that it's it's worth

1025
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:18,720
their voluntary responsibility
to do.

1026
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:23,490
The second thing is, I mean
hopefully it depends on what the

1027
00:54:23,930 --> 00:54:26,010
on what the goal is.
You know if we have someone

1028
00:54:26,010 --> 00:54:28,730
helping with setting up, you
know, getting all the clearest

1029
00:54:28,730 --> 00:54:32,250
and cleanest revelations
gathered up whether to be posted

1030
00:54:32,250 --> 00:54:35,650
online or published, You know
that they have some expertise in

1031
00:54:35,650 --> 00:54:39,130
that and that those people when
they hear this will, if they

1032
00:54:39,130 --> 00:54:41,450
feel the call, reach out and
hope to help.

1033
00:54:41,450 --> 00:54:44,170
So hopefully that you know
expertise and skills on some

1034
00:54:44,170 --> 00:54:46,290
level where interest can line
up.

1035
00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:52,220
Now, I want to talk about this
set of scriptures that that you

1036
00:54:52,220 --> 00:54:55,740
want to release without the
church's footnotes.

1037
00:54:56,020 --> 00:54:58,220
We kind of already have that
with the Bible, right?

1038
00:54:58,220 --> 00:55:03,580
We have the JST And what?
What did you see happening with

1039
00:55:03,580 --> 00:55:06,940
the Bible there?
Since we already have the JSTI,

1040
00:55:06,940 --> 00:55:09,180
don't think if we have the
Joseph Smith translation, then

1041
00:55:09,180 --> 00:55:10,820
we could probably just stick
with that.

1042
00:55:10,860 --> 00:55:12,740
Just stick with that.
Well, you know, and honestly,

1043
00:55:12,740 --> 00:55:15,980
I've done a bit of research on
the historical records of the

1044
00:55:15,980 --> 00:55:20,380
Bible, and I I personally feel
pretty confident about how a lot

1045
00:55:20,380 --> 00:55:22,980
of the biblical translations are
done and people will use them

1046
00:55:22,980 --> 00:55:24,780
together and take a good look at
things.

1047
00:55:24,780 --> 00:55:28,340
And I think mostly a lot of that
work ought to be done.

1048
00:55:28,540 --> 00:55:31,020
And there's also fresh, there's
pretty fresh copies of the Book

1049
00:55:31,020 --> 00:55:34,340
of Mormon too, that don't have a
whole bunch of stuff in there.

1050
00:55:35,970 --> 00:55:40,530
I think a lot of it would be
DNC, for example, and and taking

1051
00:55:40,530 --> 00:55:45,130
out the footnotes as well.
And that's just me.

1052
00:55:45,130 --> 00:55:46,890
Maybe a bunch of people get
together and they have a

1053
00:55:46,890 --> 00:55:48,410
different idea.
Maybe they want to keep the

1054
00:55:48,410 --> 00:55:50,770
church's footnotes and then I at
that point.

1055
00:55:52,890 --> 00:55:55,210
You should talk to Drew Briney
because he's already putting

1056
00:55:55,210 --> 00:55:58,570
together an annotated version of
the Doctrine and Covenants,

1057
00:55:59,130 --> 00:56:02,130
which is absolutely awesome.
I got to see some of it.

1058
00:56:02,610 --> 00:56:07,160
And he what he's done is is.
Not only is it the the Doctrine

1059
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:11,480
and Covenants, but rather than
like the footnotes, what he does

1060
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:16,040
is start linking to what the
early Brethren thought that

1061
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,960
meant, as well as the original
revelation.

1062
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:23,000
So you could go to like 76
right, which is a huge

1063
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,040
revelation and then when you
find out it was even longer at

1064
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:29,760
one point and then you can click
on it and then it'll give you a

1065
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,000
whole list of things that these
guys.

1066
00:56:32,590 --> 00:56:36,070
You know that the early guys,
Pratts and Youngs and and even

1067
00:56:36,070 --> 00:56:40,350
Joseph had had talked about and
what they thought it meant,

1068
00:56:40,350 --> 00:56:43,110
which is huge.
I mean when when you can get

1069
00:56:43,110 --> 00:56:45,910
back to original intent,
absolutely.

1070
00:56:46,070 --> 00:56:50,590
That's that's a huge a huge win
for for historical accuracy.

1071
00:56:50,750 --> 00:56:53,030
I I appreciate that.
I I like Drew.

1072
00:56:53,390 --> 00:56:55,310
He and I have actually.
I've been fortunate enough to be

1073
00:56:55,310 --> 00:56:57,680
able to talk to him.
We didn't go over this too much,

1074
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,000
but he's been someone I've been
looking forward to talking to

1075
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,000
again.
Yeah, no, he's he's he's

1076
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:06,560
definitely and and I mean he's
just got can't get enough of the

1077
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:09,800
Mormon Renegade Podcast.
Well, good news, we're on

1078
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,240
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

1079
00:57:12,240 --> 00:57:14,440
from.
The first one, the slightly

1080
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:17,680
rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

1081
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,640
those pesky commercials getting
in the way.

1082
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,000
For those who want a slightly
more indepth experience, there's

1083
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:25,940
the Stirring It Up package.
Where you can hear ad free

1084
00:57:25,940 --> 00:57:28,660
audio, ad free video and
transcripts.

1085
00:57:29,180 --> 00:57:32,540
Finally, for those who want to
go full Renegade, that package

1086
00:57:32,540 --> 00:57:35,220
is available to where you can
get everything in the previous

1087
00:57:35,220 --> 00:57:39,300
two packages, plus an extra show
where myself and Ben Winfield

1088
00:57:39,540 --> 00:57:42,420
break down the news of the day
from a very Mormon point of

1089
00:57:42,420 --> 00:57:44,460
view.
You will also get exclusive

1090
00:57:44,460 --> 00:57:48,260
access to Renegade Chat, and on
there you'll be able to talk to

1091
00:57:48,260 --> 00:57:50,740
others about the show or
whatever topics are on your

1092
00:57:50,740 --> 00:57:53,610
mind.
Go to Patreon today and get your

1093
00:57:53,610 --> 00:57:56,370
exclusive content.
This episode of the podcast is

1094
00:57:56,370 --> 00:57:58,530
brought to you by Deseret
flag.com.

1095
00:57:58,850 --> 00:58:00,770
I've said this before and I
really mean it.

1096
00:58:00,770 --> 00:58:03,410
Mormonism isn't just a religion,
it's a culture.

1097
00:58:03,730 --> 00:58:06,490
As such, it has its own
vernacular and practices, but

1098
00:58:06,490 --> 00:58:09,250
also its own symbols.
And those symbols become even

1099
00:58:09,250 --> 00:58:11,530
more important and prominent
when you look back into our

1100
00:58:11,530 --> 00:58:13,350
history.
Perhaps one of the most

1101
00:58:13,350 --> 00:58:16,270
recognizable symbols of
Mormonism is the Deseret flag.

1102
00:58:16,550 --> 00:58:19,870
This is the flag that I use as
cover art in this podcast.

1103
00:58:20,230 --> 00:58:23,270
This was also used for a good
chunk of time during the pioneer

1104
00:58:23,270 --> 00:58:25,950
era in Utah.
Now, today we have people who

1105
00:58:25,950 --> 00:58:28,950
want to replace the existing
Utah flag with some other

1106
00:58:28,950 --> 00:58:31,990
progressive monstrosity.
Well, I think it's damn past

1107
00:58:31,990 --> 00:58:34,670
time that we start pushing back
here a little bit in Utah.

1108
00:58:35,190 --> 00:58:37,750
Our friends at Defending Utah
are here to help you with that.

1109
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:40,870
Now, if you go to
deseretflag.com, you can now

1110
00:58:40,870 --> 00:58:42,910
purchase your own Deseret State
flag.

1111
00:58:43,310 --> 00:58:46,510
It's time here that we start
making ourselves known and join

1112
00:58:46,510 --> 00:58:49,310
the resistance against those who
seek to rewrite our state's

1113
00:58:49,310 --> 00:58:52,830
history.
Go to deseretflag.com or check

1114
00:58:52,830 --> 00:58:56,470
out the link in this episode's
page show notes and get yours

1115
00:58:56,470 --> 00:58:59,070
today.
He's just got historical chops

1116
00:58:59,070 --> 00:59:01,150
too, right?
I mean, did the the preeminent

1117
00:59:01,150 --> 00:59:03,590
work on Adam, God doctrine and
that sort of stuff?

1118
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,480
He's he's absolutely, absolutely
awesome.

1119
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:11,880
So the other thing we talked
about all over the phone was

1120
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,720
doctrine or hierarchy.
What what?

1121
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:21,200
What do you mean by that?
What I mean by that is how when

1122
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,240
you run into things that look
like scriptural contradictions,

1123
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,120
how can somebody sort out what
is more true over what is less

1124
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:34,210
true?
So as an example, you know, some

1125
00:59:34,210 --> 00:59:39,090
people look and say, oh, we have
to give priesthood approval over

1126
00:59:39,090 --> 00:59:41,010
your marriage on a on a big
level.

1127
00:59:41,290 --> 00:59:43,610
But then we go back and we see
Joseph Musser, right.

1128
00:59:43,610 --> 00:59:46,250
And his autobiography comes out
and says it's positively

1129
00:59:46,250 --> 00:59:50,090
nobody's business.
And actually he who forbids the

1130
00:59:50,090 --> 00:59:53,890
Mary is not ordained of God and
pretty bold statements.

1131
00:59:53,890 --> 00:59:57,970
So you know, when people in
their life kind of hit a a point

1132
00:59:57,970 --> 01:00:02,730
where things aren't working, we
want to just hopefully be able

1133
01:00:02,730 --> 01:00:04,700
to.
Already have things laid out in

1134
01:00:04,700 --> 01:00:07,340
a situation where they can see
what should probably take

1135
01:00:07,340 --> 01:00:11,260
precedence, or at least they can
read about that what the

1136
01:00:11,260 --> 01:00:15,140
scriptures teach on the matter.
Gotcha, gotcha.

1137
01:00:15,540 --> 01:00:21,420
And then you also mentioned
several times, both in our first

1138
01:00:21,420 --> 01:00:26,740
conversation and as we've been
talking here, what do you, what

1139
01:00:26,740 --> 01:00:31,020
do you mean by high traction
things that really make a

1140
01:00:31,020 --> 01:00:36,030
difference in people's lives,
things that do, for example, a

1141
01:00:36,430 --> 01:00:39,990
huge study on excommunication
and and what that really

1142
01:00:39,990 --> 01:00:43,430
entails.
It could really, really mean a

1143
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:46,150
lot about to people.
The priesthood ban, that's

1144
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:48,670
another one.
A place where people can get

1145
01:00:48,670 --> 01:00:51,310
online to have every single
reference that everyone can

1146
01:00:51,310 --> 01:00:54,470
collect on the priesthood ban
well organized according to a

1147
01:00:54,470 --> 01:00:57,390
pretty solid order of doctrinal
authenticity.

1148
01:00:58,150 --> 01:01:01,170
Okay so so.
Those items that that maybe

1149
01:01:01,170 --> 01:01:05,170
carry a little more gravity or
maybe a little controversial

1150
01:01:05,170 --> 01:01:06,770
even.
Yeah, absolutely.

1151
01:01:07,970 --> 01:01:09,850
And maybe some really basic ones
too.

1152
01:01:09,930 --> 01:01:14,370
This is just kind of my opinion,
for example, But I started

1153
01:01:14,370 --> 01:01:19,010
gathering all the references on
sacrament that I could and and I

1154
01:01:19,010 --> 01:01:21,210
just really, I like abiding by
scripture, law.

1155
01:01:21,850 --> 01:01:25,450
And then I started finding that
it felt like a lot of people

1156
01:01:25,450 --> 01:01:28,440
weren't necessarily find, you
know, they weren't doing what I

1157
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:32,560
found about sacrament.
Well, enlighten us.

1158
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,240
What'd you find there?
Thanks for asking.

1159
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,360
Well, I was really surprised.
First it I was reading through

1160
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,880
3518 and a reference just jumped
out at me.

1161
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,360
And the Lord said one shall be
ordained among you to break

1162
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:47,960
bread.
And so I looked carefully and I

1163
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:50,840
saw the same person it seemed
like was was doing the wine.

1164
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:52,920
Then I started, you know, I
started looking up every

1165
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:55,000
reference I could.
I went to DNC20 and I took a

1166
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:57,840
really close look at the
references and it really clearly

1167
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,760
states that he who blessed the
bread, which he who should bless

1168
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:04,320
the wine.
And then I then I went over to,

1169
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,960
I think it's Maroni 4, where
they start getting into the

1170
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:10,160
sacrament as well.
And it was the same thing there.

1171
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,000
They they did use a plural term.
They and it looks like they're

1172
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,880
speaking about they in different
locations but they were actually

1173
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:20,320
saying he if I remember the
exact word correctly as well

1174
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:24,280
does the bread and the wine and
so and then I would add further

1175
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,440
you know we get into our New
Testament look at Paul if

1176
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:31,000
possible at least there should
hopefully be a feast.

1177
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,320
And if we get into I'm not going
to say this book's name right

1178
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:38,560
the Diadaki, is that correct.
Getting the Diadaki, you see

1179
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,320
they even and I don't know if
the Diadaki necessarily needs to

1180
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:45,310
hold up his doctrinal cannon or
not but they even used to do

1181
01:02:45,310 --> 01:02:51,870
praises of Thanksgiving.
You know So you know is anyone

1182
01:02:52,350 --> 01:02:54,790
really having one person bless
the sacrament and and doesn't

1183
01:02:54,790 --> 01:02:59,670
really matter that much you know
I I hope to see scripture lobby

1184
01:02:59,670 --> 01:03:02,150
abided too.
I I also hope to see if I'm

1185
01:03:02,150 --> 01:03:05,270
wrong, like I would really love
it to see if there was records

1186
01:03:05,270 --> 01:03:08,590
that demonstrated I was
incorrect or maybe I'm missing

1187
01:03:08,590 --> 01:03:11,230
some exceptions so.
What?

1188
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:16,960
And especially when we start
talking about the Book of Mormon

1189
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:19,720
and the Doctrine and Covenants,
because there's things that were

1190
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,680
given and then almost
immediately we see, see things

1191
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,240
that like you were saying with
the sacrament.

1192
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:31,040
I'm not sure it was performed
that way during Joseph's time,

1193
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:32,960
right.
And and and I always point back

1194
01:03:32,960 --> 01:03:36,960
to Joseph on Restoration things
because again, he's the

1195
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,360
dispensation head.
He's the wellspring from which

1196
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:45,590
the restoration flows from God.
So how much credence do you give

1197
01:03:45,590 --> 01:03:49,390
over?
OK, this this scripture here

1198
01:03:49,390 --> 01:03:52,830
says this.
How literal should it be taken?

1199
01:03:52,830 --> 01:03:55,630
And do you take into account
what Joseph authorized?

1200
01:03:55,830 --> 01:03:57,950
Oh, yeah.
I mean, absolutely.

1201
01:03:57,950 --> 01:04:02,070
Joseph Smith's word has got to
be as long as it's taken from a

1202
01:04:02,070 --> 01:04:05,630
context in a situation that
actually applies as being, you

1203
01:04:05,630 --> 01:04:09,150
know, he's officially speaking
as the president or is the

1204
01:04:09,150 --> 01:04:12,950
prophet.
That needs to be a point where

1205
01:04:13,410 --> 01:04:15,970
you know things don't really we
don't work around.

1206
01:04:16,170 --> 01:04:20,370
But I would also say that, and I
haven't studied this enough yet,

1207
01:04:21,090 --> 01:04:25,170
but that I think at one point
the Church did have one person

1208
01:04:25,170 --> 01:04:29,930
blessing the sacrament.
How are you going to determine,

1209
01:04:30,130 --> 01:04:33,250
and this will come in huge with
Brigham, How are you going to

1210
01:04:33,250 --> 01:04:38,730
determine when someone's
speaking as a prophet or as the

1211
01:04:38,730 --> 01:04:41,650
mayor of Navu or a territorial
governor?

1212
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:43,640
How are you going to make that
distinction?

1213
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:47,600
Fortunately, I won't have to.
When I say you, I mean the

1214
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:51,560
board, I mean because when you
start talking about these

1215
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:58,200
historical incidences and
precedents, there has to be

1216
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,680
wait, right?
Because if not, we just believe

1217
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:05,840
any account anywhere and then
we're all screwed up, right.

1218
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,960
So there has to be some
historical work here done.

1219
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,880
So.
Who's going to make that call?

1220
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:18,480
And and again I mean, I don't, I
know for a fact.

1221
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:26,040
You don't have to be a call a
college educated professor to to

1222
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:29,000
make those calls, right?
Not not to take anything away

1223
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,560
from anyone who's made that
their profession and put in the

1224
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:36,800
work, but I've seen far too many
guys who are way super wicked

1225
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,640
smart who can can make those
calls.

1226
01:05:40,540 --> 01:05:42,020
How are you going to round these
people up?

1227
01:05:44,100 --> 01:05:47,060
Oh well, you know, actually a
lot of people we've talked to

1228
01:05:47,380 --> 01:05:50,340
are they, They hear it
sometimes.

1229
01:05:50,340 --> 01:05:53,740
I'll get an initial knee jerk
on.

1230
01:05:53,860 --> 01:05:56,340
Well, no one wants to, you know,
people aren't going to change

1231
01:05:56,340 --> 01:05:58,860
because they see the truth.
But there's a lot of people

1232
01:05:58,860 --> 01:06:05,540
we've come into contact with who
who seem to recognize the need

1233
01:06:05,540 --> 01:06:08,860
for this to be done and who do
want to help.

1234
01:06:09,390 --> 01:06:11,710
They're just kind of waiting to
see exactly when we're ready to

1235
01:06:11,710 --> 01:06:14,550
go.
And and that's a good thing.

1236
01:06:14,550 --> 01:06:17,550
They're waiting and and just,
you know, on the contradictions,

1237
01:06:19,150 --> 01:06:23,390
I think I think it could be
really simple because we don't

1238
01:06:23,390 --> 01:06:26,190
have to arrive at a conclusion,
we just need to gather the truth

1239
01:06:26,190 --> 01:06:29,630
together and sort of give that
truth in somewhat of a doctrinal

1240
01:06:29,630 --> 01:06:32,990
hierarchy form.
And so in my mind, in all

1241
01:06:32,990 --> 01:06:36,310
simplicity, that would just be
your standard works with the

1242
01:06:36,310 --> 01:06:39,030
teachings of Joseph Smith in
their proper context.

1243
01:06:39,680 --> 01:06:42,080
And and hopefully that standard
works is actually relying on the

1244
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,000
purest and most original
versions of the revelations that

1245
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:47,920
we can get.
But we don't have to have a

1246
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:49,880
conclusion.
We just need to gather all the

1247
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:53,000
resources so people can find
pure fresh water and they can

1248
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:54,760
make their own conclusions
themselves.

1249
01:06:55,440 --> 01:07:00,450
You know, I'm not too worried at
figuring out, you know, if one

1250
01:07:00,450 --> 01:07:02,690
person really needs to pass the
sacrament or not.

1251
01:07:02,690 --> 01:07:05,570
But I I am really concerned
about finding every reference

1252
01:07:05,570 --> 01:07:07,610
about it.
I mean every single reference on

1253
01:07:07,610 --> 01:07:09,170
the sacrament and getting it all
in one place.

1254
01:07:09,170 --> 01:07:11,330
Same for baptism.
Every single reference.

1255
01:07:12,050 --> 01:07:13,890
How are you going to prevent
this?

1256
01:07:14,290 --> 01:07:18,730
Because I see one, one of the
things that could come up as a

1257
01:07:20,530 --> 01:07:25,090
potential pitfall is people
getting too parasitical, if

1258
01:07:25,090 --> 01:07:28,090
that's a word about some of
this, right?

1259
01:07:29,610 --> 01:07:32,330
How?
How are you going to to make the

1260
01:07:32,330 --> 01:07:34,450
determination?
And again, I know it's not you,

1261
01:07:35,250 --> 01:07:38,010
but but there's got to be some
sort of guideline at which we

1262
01:07:38,010 --> 01:07:40,570
say okay.
Is this really important, right.

1263
01:07:40,810 --> 01:07:47,130
Are are we wasting time and
effort on something that the

1264
01:07:47,130 --> 01:07:48,570
Lord probably doesn't care
about?

1265
01:07:48,610 --> 01:07:51,690
Right, I totally agree.
How?

1266
01:07:51,690 --> 01:07:55,170
How do you prevent that?
I'm not sure yet.

1267
01:07:55,810 --> 01:07:58,330
That's not going to be easy.
You know, just just trying to

1268
01:07:58,330 --> 01:08:00,770
gather every reference on the
universal church out of the New

1269
01:08:00,770 --> 01:08:02,450
Testament is something I've been
trying to do.

1270
01:08:02,450 --> 01:08:04,650
And you know, you'll find a lot
of things we have to sit and

1271
01:08:04,650 --> 01:08:08,490
say, is this really a reference
for the universal church or is

1272
01:08:08,490 --> 01:08:11,530
it not?
I don't think there's really a

1273
01:08:11,530 --> 01:08:14,610
perfect way to do that, but
hopefully we can sort that out.

1274
01:08:16,250 --> 01:08:20,290
Yeah.
Something else and and and this

1275
01:08:20,290 --> 01:08:24,370
is a big thing in Mormonism,
whether it's the LDS Church or

1276
01:08:24,370 --> 01:08:27,250
whether it's fundamentalism, I'd
say it's a little more weighty

1277
01:08:27,250 --> 01:08:33,370
and fundamentalism, but you have
a lot of stories, right?

1278
01:08:34,970 --> 01:08:39,609
And and it's going to be hard to
separate those because a lot of

1279
01:08:39,609 --> 01:08:46,370
those stories are they set
precedent.

1280
01:08:47,689 --> 01:08:52,970
So how are you going to
determine what story is

1281
01:08:53,930 --> 01:08:57,010
authentic and which one's full
of crap?

1282
01:08:57,649 --> 01:09:00,810
You you speaking like Journal of
Discourses or Church History?

1283
01:09:01,130 --> 01:09:02,410
Any of it.
In what way?

1284
01:09:02,410 --> 01:09:03,210
Any of it?
Yeah.

1285
01:09:03,410 --> 01:09:07,450
Well, let's let's take this one
for an example, and this one's

1286
01:09:07,450 --> 01:09:11,930
going to piss some people off.
But you knew what the you knew

1287
01:09:11,930 --> 01:09:13,410
what it was.
You knew the name of the

1288
01:09:13,569 --> 01:09:18,189
podcast.
Let let let's just take for

1289
01:09:18,189 --> 01:09:25,750
example the story that Joseph he
passed priesthood or authorized

1290
01:09:25,750 --> 01:09:29,830
priesthood to be given to Elijah
Abel, one of the first black men

1291
01:09:29,830 --> 01:09:33,990
in the church.
There's a story that says Joseph

1292
01:09:33,990 --> 01:09:38,910
came to him later with tears in
his eyes and said, I'm sorry but

1293
01:09:38,910 --> 01:09:40,470
you're not eligible for
priesthood.

1294
01:09:42,510 --> 01:09:50,160
That story appears once.
It's 40 some years after the

1295
01:09:50,160 --> 01:09:52,680
fact.
There's not another record of

1296
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:55,400
it.
And then to boot, you have

1297
01:09:55,440 --> 01:10:02,480
during the Utah period records
of Elijah Abel going to like 70s

1298
01:10:03,360 --> 01:10:08,840
meetings and that sort of thing,
that to me that story that's

1299
01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:12,800
rehearsed by somebody else, a
third hand account when you

1300
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:16,380
break it down.
Is one of those things that in

1301
01:10:16,380 --> 01:10:19,500
fundamental fundamentalism has
gained traction.

1302
01:10:19,820 --> 01:10:22,700
Now, however, someone feels
about the ban, pro or con.

1303
01:10:22,700 --> 01:10:26,380
I'm not here to judge.
That's that's for each person to

1304
01:10:26,380 --> 01:10:31,380
decide and figure out.
My question is, are you know?

1305
01:10:32,380 --> 01:10:37,940
How are you going to determine
what are stories that are

1306
01:10:37,940 --> 01:10:43,300
factual, accounts that are
factual versus those who aren't?

1307
01:10:44,610 --> 01:10:47,170
And now you're going to have a
new problem, which is you're

1308
01:10:47,170 --> 01:10:54,530
going to contend with upsetting
some traditions and and not just

1309
01:10:54,530 --> 01:10:56,650
the ban, right.
I'm not saying that was just an

1310
01:10:56,650 --> 01:10:59,570
example.
I'm saying things you know all

1311
01:10:59,570 --> 01:11:04,530
over because because even every
group has has those stories and

1312
01:11:04,530 --> 01:11:07,090
I actually I really, I really
like this question.

1313
01:11:07,170 --> 01:11:10,010
I feel like that's a really has
a high application.

1314
01:11:10,490 --> 01:11:12,130
I guess I got a two-part
response to that.

1315
01:11:12,130 --> 01:11:16,070
The first one would be that
hopefully there's not a ton of

1316
01:11:16,070 --> 01:11:19,870
time spent on gathering obscure
resources on the it's going to

1317
01:11:19,870 --> 01:11:22,470
be on coming under christ.org.
That'll be where the doctrinal

1318
01:11:22,470 --> 01:11:27,150
study is.
But let's just say for a minute

1319
01:11:27,150 --> 01:11:32,830
that on the topic of the
priesthood ban that after all of

1320
01:11:32,830 --> 01:11:36,910
the other very more authentic or
doctrinal resources are

1321
01:11:36,910 --> 01:11:40,030
gathered, let's say there's a
tab down at the bottom where you

1322
01:11:40,030 --> 01:11:45,200
have a whole bunch of extra
documents and and entries under

1323
01:11:45,200 --> 01:11:49,200
the second part.
My hope is that we have people

1324
01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:55,240
at that point who really are
expert at analyzing records that

1325
01:11:56,160 --> 01:12:00,280
they can take a strong look at
these and and give us a good

1326
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:04,360
idea of at least how how much
weight we should give those

1327
01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:07,920
records based on, you know,
whole multitude of factors that

1328
01:12:07,920 --> 01:12:09,600
we could be.
They could be pulled into that

1329
01:12:09,600 --> 01:12:13,500
study on that situation.
You know, like yeah.

1330
01:12:13,500 --> 01:12:17,020
Who said it and what I mean they
could get really into it.

1331
01:12:17,020 --> 01:12:19,020
Actually have a friend who works
for the Book of Book of Mormon

1332
01:12:19,020 --> 01:12:21,820
Central doing evidences.
I was raised with them and we

1333
01:12:21,820 --> 01:12:24,700
had a pretty it was a short but
good discussion about the other

1334
01:12:24,860 --> 01:12:29,100
this exact topic the other day
over how much work has to be put

1335
01:12:29,100 --> 01:12:33,380
into taking any any of these
records or stories to make sure

1336
01:12:33,380 --> 01:12:35,700
that they're really going to
hold hold weight or not.

1337
01:12:35,700 --> 01:12:38,140
I mean, there's just so many
different ways and angles to

1338
01:12:38,140 --> 01:12:40,140
come at those documents and
evaluate them.

1339
01:12:42,030 --> 01:12:44,590
And honestly, I still think
transparency is always the best

1340
01:12:44,590 --> 01:12:48,870
answer.
So if you know why I don't think

1341
01:12:48,870 --> 01:12:51,670
there should be any words of men
on coming under christ.org, I

1342
01:12:51,670 --> 01:12:53,030
think it needs to be pure
doctrine.

1343
01:12:53,590 --> 01:12:55,990
If we get down to a point where
we have those kind of stories,

1344
01:12:56,270 --> 01:13:00,870
hopefully the experts can point
out the considerations on these

1345
01:13:00,870 --> 01:13:04,910
stories, the reasons they might
doubt their authenticity on some

1346
01:13:04,910 --> 01:13:07,710
level.
Yeah, that's in some of this.

1347
01:13:07,710 --> 01:13:10,150
You know, a lot of this is going
to have to be precept upon

1348
01:13:10,310 --> 01:13:14,640
precept, so I of course don't
always have a lot of the the

1349
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:16,960
best answers right now, but I
love the questions.

1350
01:13:17,480 --> 01:13:21,360
So is this something that will
be paid or are these going to be

1351
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:23,560
paid positions?
No, they're not going to be paid

1352
01:13:23,560 --> 01:13:26,800
positions and it's going to be
free for everybody to and free

1353
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:28,800
of party ideas and groups.
Sure.

1354
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:30,920
No.
No paid positions.

1355
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:35,480
It'll it'll need to be voluntary
responsibility people who feel

1356
01:13:35,480 --> 01:13:38,630
the spirit who want to go and do
this and and it really needs to

1357
01:13:38,630 --> 01:13:42,030
be free of of authority abuse of
any kind and that needs to be

1358
01:13:42,030 --> 01:13:45,790
written right and and it will be
written right into the original

1359
01:13:45,790 --> 01:13:48,950
articles of what I would just
call the articles of faith for

1360
01:13:48,950 --> 01:13:53,230
now about the organization.
Let me ask you this, are, are

1361
01:13:53,230 --> 01:13:56,910
you going to kind of have
whoever's making these

1362
01:13:56,910 --> 01:14:01,190
determinations and these calls
kind of show their work, right?

1363
01:14:02,070 --> 01:14:04,670
Maybe an?
Explanatory section where they

1364
01:14:04,670 --> 01:14:08,030
say, hey, This is why we waited
this, what we did and why we

1365
01:14:08,030 --> 01:14:11,150
didn't wait this so so we can
see what what those folks are

1366
01:14:11,150 --> 01:14:14,710
thinking, maybe even by person.
Maybe even go that far like when

1367
01:14:14,710 --> 01:14:16,870
people are on, you know who has
keys.org.

1368
01:14:16,870 --> 01:14:20,990
If we're measuring a scripture
law versus a person, we my hope

1369
01:14:20,990 --> 01:14:23,910
would be to say, you know, three
people gave this a check mark,

1370
01:14:24,350 --> 01:14:29,780
but one person disagreed, you
know, So yeah, and I think that

1371
01:14:29,780 --> 01:14:33,540
there's always has to be common
consent and everything on a high

1372
01:14:33,540 --> 01:14:38,780
level of common consent.
So let's talk about what what

1373
01:14:38,780 --> 01:14:42,900
you're going to be considered
considering Canon, right.

1374
01:14:43,300 --> 01:14:46,300
When we talk about scriptural
walks, I think that's important

1375
01:14:46,300 --> 01:14:50,300
too.
So you we like, like we were

1376
01:14:50,300 --> 01:14:54,420
saying, we have the JST, right?
And then we have the Book of

1377
01:14:54,420 --> 01:14:55,670
Mormon.
Right.

1378
01:14:55,750 --> 01:14:59,590
And I think we have enough
evidence to go back and still

1379
01:14:59,590 --> 01:15:02,230
put everything into its proper
context, right.

1380
01:15:02,910 --> 01:15:05,710
I think with the with the
Doctrine and Covenants, we we've

1381
01:15:05,710 --> 01:15:10,190
got the Joseph Smith paper, some
other things that I think can

1382
01:15:10,190 --> 01:15:12,870
can supplement that.
What are you going to do with

1383
01:15:12,870 --> 01:15:16,710
things like the Journal of
Discourses?

1384
01:15:16,750 --> 01:15:19,790
What are you going to do?
Things because if, if, if we

1385
01:15:19,790 --> 01:15:22,910
listen.
If, if we hear strictly.

1386
01:15:23,650 --> 01:15:26,650
To that, whatever are the
servants say while inspired a

1387
01:15:26,650 --> 01:15:30,050
scripture, there's a large chunk
of the Journal of Discourses

1388
01:15:30,050 --> 01:15:34,330
that's going to fall into that.
Likewise the Articles, Not the

1389
01:15:34,330 --> 01:15:38,770
Articles, but the the the
Lectures on faith, right?

1390
01:15:39,050 --> 01:15:40,810
And they're in Lectures of
Faith.

1391
01:15:40,810 --> 01:15:44,970
You have what seems to be on the
surface, massive contradiction

1392
01:15:44,970 --> 01:15:50,570
between, yeah.
Between, you know, even the the

1393
01:15:51,010 --> 01:15:56,170
the concept of God, right?
And so how, how are you going to

1394
01:15:56,170 --> 01:15:58,450
wait those?
What are you going to include?

1395
01:15:58,890 --> 01:16:01,850
You know, I wouldn't consider
myself expert enough to make

1396
01:16:01,850 --> 01:16:05,650
that decision.
Like, you know, in my mind, I'm

1397
01:16:05,650 --> 01:16:08,570
very much about getting to the
most original version of the

1398
01:16:08,570 --> 01:16:12,810
standard works, so DNC, Old
Testament, New Testament, Book

1399
01:16:12,810 --> 01:16:15,930
of Mormon teaching to Joseph
Smith in their proper context.

1400
01:16:16,670 --> 01:16:21,110
And and you know, beyond that, I
really am not expert enough to

1401
01:16:21,110 --> 01:16:24,350
decide.
I hope that people who are

1402
01:16:24,350 --> 01:16:27,950
expert enough can get together
and really, really study that

1403
01:16:28,670 --> 01:16:31,150
and pray about it and figure out
a good guideline.

1404
01:16:31,150 --> 01:16:34,910
But I think that even then the
truth is going to be that it's

1405
01:16:34,950 --> 01:16:38,590
up to people's agency and their
faith when they read something

1406
01:16:38,590 --> 01:16:41,150
to feel that truth and decide
for themselves.

1407
01:16:42,150 --> 01:16:44,110
So I just hope that we can
organize it.

1408
01:16:44,110 --> 01:16:47,330
So in my mind when I when I kind
of see the web page in my mind

1409
01:16:47,330 --> 01:16:50,930
and how this goes after we have
all the verses from the standard

1410
01:16:50,930 --> 01:16:53,050
works course which will be
collapsible in different ways.

1411
01:16:53,050 --> 01:16:56,810
So we keep the web page clean.
But you know journal Discourses

1412
01:16:57,330 --> 01:17:02,930
hopefully is near the bottom and
unless you have really quality

1413
01:17:03,210 --> 01:17:06,130
stuff in there that what I mean
it's in proper context.

1414
01:17:06,130 --> 01:17:08,730
Joseph Smith is speaking for the
Lord or you know, Brigham Young

1415
01:17:08,730 --> 01:17:10,610
is maybe it would show up
higher.

1416
01:17:10,610 --> 01:17:12,490
But generally speaking I think
those things you put at the

1417
01:17:12,490 --> 01:17:14,130
bottom and those who want to go
look them up.

1418
01:17:14,130 --> 01:17:20,070
Can I kind of just goes back to
that that concept I think of

1419
01:17:22,110 --> 01:17:26,830
just having the spirit and the
agency to to know where the Lord

1420
01:17:26,830 --> 01:17:30,030
wants you to be and what's true
and and not trying to figure

1421
01:17:30,030 --> 01:17:32,630
that out for everybody.
You know, it's funny because

1422
01:17:32,630 --> 01:17:35,790
that is generally the very first
objection I get every time I sit

1423
01:17:35,790 --> 01:17:37,870
down and I talk with someone
about this, they, well, people

1424
01:17:37,870 --> 01:17:40,550
aren't going to change.
And so, well, I don't need them

1425
01:17:40,910 --> 01:17:43,760
to change.
You know, the Lord just put in

1426
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:48,080
my heart to get a place of pure
fresh water on the doctrines and

1427
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,480
have a whole bunch of people
help start and put this together

1428
01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:53,120
and they can do what they want
with it.

1429
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:56,600
You know, if nobody changes, so
be it.

1430
01:17:56,600 --> 01:17:59,760
But I actually believe that
what's going to happen is this.

1431
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:02,480
People come to a really solid
understanding of what all the

1432
01:18:02,480 --> 01:18:05,320
records say.
And I mean especially people

1433
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:06,840
start sharing them all.
They come to a solid

1434
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:10,430
understanding, at least in their
own mind, of different

1435
01:18:10,430 --> 01:18:13,190
doctrines, as they can just have
an easy place to go research

1436
01:18:13,190 --> 01:18:16,590
them that then they will start
to make their own changes in

1437
01:18:16,590 --> 01:18:19,110
their own lives in the way that
the spirit helps them.

1438
01:18:19,510 --> 01:18:22,230
And I think that in the process
of all this discussion and the

1439
01:18:22,230 --> 01:18:24,870
process of all this work, people
are just going to hopefully

1440
01:18:24,870 --> 01:18:28,590
start to find themselves having
new discussions about how they

1441
01:18:28,590 --> 01:18:30,310
can work together.
And maybe there's a different

1442
01:18:30,310 --> 01:18:33,990
way we can view this.
And hopefully the changes happen

1443
01:18:33,990 --> 01:18:38,500
from honestly, from the bottom
up of any organizations.

1444
01:18:38,500 --> 01:18:42,460
It's about people and families,
so yeah.

1445
01:18:43,300 --> 01:18:49,620
And then what about what about,
like, ordinance work?

1446
01:18:50,020 --> 01:18:52,700
So are you going to have a place
where people can go and say, you

1447
01:18:52,700 --> 01:18:57,780
know what I really need to be
rebaptized or I need I need my

1448
01:18:57,780 --> 01:19:02,030
my temple blessings?
Well, is there going to be a

1449
01:19:02,030 --> 01:19:05,190
section in there where people
can go and and maybe hook up

1450
01:19:05,190 --> 01:19:07,190
with like minded people to get
that done?

1451
01:19:07,390 --> 01:19:10,910
Yeah, you know there's actually
two or there's one other two

1452
01:19:10,910 --> 01:19:14,030
other huge parts on coming onto
christ.org I didn't get into

1453
01:19:14,030 --> 01:19:16,270
yet.
One of those is going to be a

1454
01:19:16,270 --> 01:19:20,810
place for people to the groups
to collaboratively post their

1455
01:19:20,810 --> 01:19:23,210
meetings or zoom meetings and
different things.

1456
01:19:23,290 --> 01:19:25,570
And so people should hopefully
be able to find those groups

1457
01:19:25,570 --> 01:19:28,130
easily and get a taste for what
they do if they want to, you

1458
01:19:28,130 --> 01:19:29,970
know, if they want to post on
there, there could be a whole

1459
01:19:29,970 --> 01:19:31,210
bunch of different people
posting it.

1460
01:19:31,490 --> 01:19:37,130
But you know I don't think that
the toward Zion platform I I

1461
01:19:37,130 --> 01:19:39,930
don't know exactly where over
time all this will go.

1462
01:19:40,810 --> 01:19:43,450
I actually mentioned to you
earlier that there will be a

1463
01:19:43,450 --> 01:19:45,850
fourth and a fifth step later.
That's to help people find a way

1464
01:19:45,850 --> 01:19:48,210
to do combined church and
combined temple worship.

1465
01:19:50,700 --> 01:19:56,820
But I don't think this should be
an ecclesiastical priesthood

1466
01:19:56,820 --> 01:20:01,580
environment where we have any
type of way necessary to say,

1467
01:20:01,580 --> 01:20:03,860
well, these are the rules and
here's what you have to do to

1468
01:20:03,860 --> 01:20:07,020
get your blessings and to do all
the ordinances.

1469
01:20:07,020 --> 01:20:09,700
But I think it's a place where
after people research the truth,

1470
01:20:09,980 --> 01:20:13,860
they can look and they can find
exactly what groups hopefully

1471
01:20:13,860 --> 01:20:17,180
fit there.
And there they can go and do

1472
01:20:17,380 --> 01:20:19,260
their ordinances if they want
them.

1473
01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:27,280
OK, when you were talking about
having church together or

1474
01:20:27,280 --> 01:20:30,400
temple, you know, going to the
temple together, are you talking

1475
01:20:30,400 --> 01:20:32,080
different groups all coming
together?

1476
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:36,480
You know, I don't know how
something like this would work.

1477
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:44,440
Talk to people about the idea
of, you know, getting together

1478
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:47,880
after lots of discussion and
research and finding a way

1479
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:51,700
finding a way to.
Renovate or rededicate or open

1480
01:20:51,700 --> 01:20:53,660
up time blocks in their temples
because there's quite a few

1481
01:20:53,660 --> 01:20:55,660
temples to spread out in
different locations.

1482
01:20:56,980 --> 01:21:01,380
But but I I don't know how or if
that should necessarily be just

1483
01:21:01,380 --> 01:21:05,460
because the temple does have you
know, it does have its own set

1484
01:21:05,500 --> 01:21:10,380
of checks and checks and laws,
so I don't know yet.

1485
01:21:11,540 --> 01:21:12,460
All right.
No, that's good.

1486
01:21:14,740 --> 01:21:17,340
I hesitate to call this because
it doesn't quite sound like it,

1487
01:21:17,340 --> 01:21:21,160
but the but the third?
Prong here that that ecommerce

1488
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:23,920
one, what's that going to look
like?

1489
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:25,640
What what do you envision that
being?

1490
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:31,800
Well, hopefully there's a place
where people can post things

1491
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:37,240
like housing or jobs available
or items for sale maybe, you

1492
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:42,080
know, gosh, I don't even know if
I if anyone would dare step

1493
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:45,280
their foot into a a free but
really quality dating.

1494
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:51,320
Dating tab, but activities, You
know, there could be just a

1495
01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:54,400
plethora of categories.
Yeah, groups could post, like if

1496
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:58,240
they're youth or having
activities or or if they're just

1497
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:00,720
doing stuff and they want to
invite other groups to it or

1498
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:01,800
whatever.
Oh, I got you.

1499
01:22:01,800 --> 01:22:04,440
OK, OK.
No, that makes a little more

1500
01:22:04,440 --> 01:22:08,600
sense there.
Yeah, and I kind of felt like

1501
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:11,040
from the beginning that
fortunately I might not have

1502
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:13,320
much to do on the community
driven side.

1503
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:18,480
But other people, it seems like,
have been doing a lot.

1504
01:22:18,480 --> 01:22:22,440
I've got a friend from Canada,
you might know him as well, and

1505
01:22:22,440 --> 01:22:24,320
he's working on a magazine.
It's going to be called The

1506
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:26,960
Fundamentalist.
And you know, I've talked to him

1507
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:28,640
a lot.
I feel like he's totally driven

1508
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:33,280
by the Spirit.
In fact, I asked him a few times

1509
01:22:33,280 --> 01:22:35,680
kind of how he came about this
and if he was moved by the

1510
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:37,840
Spirit and he gave me some
really good logical answers.

1511
01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:40,400
But then finally he just ended
with, yeah, absolutely.

1512
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:44,440
I think the spirit is moving me
to do this and and he wants to

1513
01:22:44,440 --> 01:22:46,990
really help.
As well with just getting across

1514
01:22:46,990 --> 01:22:50,550
the religious borders and
demonstrating to everybody that

1515
01:22:50,910 --> 01:22:53,750
you know and especially people
in the Mother Church that you

1516
01:22:53,750 --> 01:22:58,910
know, the fundamentalism can
look nice and clean and it is a

1517
01:22:58,910 --> 01:23:03,190
good thing.
And you know he's going to do

1518
01:23:03,190 --> 01:23:06,590
articles on, you know, how how,
how do you how can you make

1519
01:23:06,590 --> 01:23:09,190
these dresses or how is certain
farming done or how how do the

1520
01:23:09,190 --> 01:23:12,310
wives get along in the house.
You know how what works for you

1521
01:23:12,310 --> 01:23:14,630
and some big doctrinal studies
and things and.

1522
01:23:15,620 --> 01:23:17,740
You know, and I know some, a lot
of magazines or at least some

1523
01:23:17,740 --> 01:23:20,060
have been made and and not
worked out, you know, and that

1524
01:23:20,060 --> 01:23:22,260
could be a hard thing to do.
But I feel like he's been moved

1525
01:23:22,260 --> 01:23:26,820
by the Spirit, and so, yeah,
anyway, I know I got a little

1526
01:23:26,820 --> 01:23:28,220
off topic there.
But no, You're good.

1527
01:23:28,220 --> 01:23:29,300
You're good.
You're just fine.

1528
01:23:30,940 --> 01:23:33,100
What?
What does it in?

1529
01:23:33,220 --> 01:23:37,860
In your mind?
What does this all look like

1530
01:23:37,860 --> 01:23:39,740
when it's done?
What's the end goal?

1531
01:23:41,700 --> 01:23:44,500
I think when it's done, what it
looks like is.

1532
01:23:45,380 --> 01:23:52,100
Is unclear to me, but something
like people start, they have a

1533
01:23:52,100 --> 01:23:55,260
really solid path to start
working together better.

1534
01:23:56,100 --> 01:23:58,260
And then if there is an
emergency of some sort,

1535
01:23:58,260 --> 01:24:02,420
everybody's connected.
And what I would love to see,

1536
01:24:02,460 --> 01:24:05,620
and I mean genuinely, is a place
where people can go have this

1537
01:24:05,620 --> 01:24:09,940
Acraman and worship on Sundays
and take this Acraman if they've

1538
01:24:09,940 --> 01:24:11,500
been baptized in the name of the
Lord.

1539
01:24:12,230 --> 01:24:16,470
Without having a whole bunch of
restrictions, you know there's

1540
01:24:16,670 --> 01:24:19,110
tons of independence and
different people who don't have

1541
01:24:19,110 --> 01:24:21,550
the ability right now necessary
go someplace and take the

1542
01:24:21,550 --> 01:24:24,310
sacrament unless they do it with
their own family.

1543
01:24:25,110 --> 01:24:29,750
So I I would hope to see people
coming together and and honestly

1544
01:24:29,750 --> 01:24:32,750
the long long goal, the feeling
that's come to my mind is that

1545
01:24:32,750 --> 01:24:35,470
you know we have a five step
cycle now with three prongs at

1546
01:24:35,470 --> 01:24:38,870
the beginning, but the overtime
and as things develop there will

1547
01:24:38,870 --> 01:24:42,930
be 7 and then 12 different.
Steps inside towards Zion.

1548
01:24:44,370 --> 01:24:46,690
I have no idea.
I could take guesses at what

1549
01:24:46,690 --> 01:24:50,650
those might be if the
organization works out, but I

1550
01:24:50,650 --> 01:24:55,130
don't know what.
So hopefully people coming

1551
01:24:55,130 --> 01:24:58,930
together and honestly I guess I
would say I would add to that.

1552
01:24:59,730 --> 01:25:01,290
I think what I hope to see
really.

1553
01:25:01,330 --> 01:25:03,370
Or I think maybe what Lord would
hope to see.

1554
01:25:03,370 --> 01:25:07,130
Not, not to speak exactly what
you'd hope to see, but is people

1555
01:25:07,130 --> 01:25:10,650
becoming as a little child?
I mean really just as a little

1556
01:25:10,650 --> 01:25:15,090
child and in realizing that
those who aren't against us or

1557
01:25:15,090 --> 01:25:19,130
for us and then they can sort
out between all their religious

1558
01:25:19,130 --> 01:25:22,130
groups, you know how that how
that works.

1559
01:25:22,290 --> 01:25:26,890
But it might look something like
Mike Peterson sitting down with

1560
01:25:26,890 --> 01:25:30,570
Gary Lee sitting.
Gary Lee's the the person I'd

1561
01:25:30,570 --> 01:25:33,650
like to have the cleanest priest
to line up in Pinesdale and 1st,

1562
01:25:33,650 --> 01:25:36,530
writing down all of their
similarities, every one of them,

1563
01:25:36,610 --> 01:25:38,690
and then maybe afterwards
writing down all their

1564
01:25:38,690 --> 01:25:40,770
differences.
And then getting into the

1565
01:25:40,770 --> 01:25:42,810
scriptures.
Or maybe, if things are done

1566
01:25:42,810 --> 01:25:44,770
well enough, getting on to
comingunderchrist.org and

1567
01:25:44,770 --> 01:25:48,330
spending a lot of time studying
out what their differences are

1568
01:25:48,730 --> 01:25:51,450
and then hopefully having
discussions where either they

1569
01:25:51,890 --> 01:25:54,650
got to make changes or they can
find a way to respect each other

1570
01:25:55,170 --> 01:25:58,690
and work together.
I don't know in what fashion or

1571
01:25:58,690 --> 01:26:00,730
form something like that could
take place, but.

1572
01:26:01,690 --> 01:26:06,970
So what, You're going to be your
role in this whole thing because

1573
01:26:06,970 --> 01:26:09,260
you keep saying other people?
What?

1574
01:26:09,300 --> 01:26:10,700
What's your role going to be
here?

1575
01:26:11,140 --> 01:26:15,740
Going to work really hard on
every bit of it, you know, I I

1576
01:26:15,740 --> 01:26:19,620
felt especially drawn and I I
still do spiritually as I pray

1577
01:26:20,220 --> 01:26:25,380
to to working on the records, on
collecting, helping to meet

1578
01:26:25,380 --> 01:26:27,420
people and do whatever I can to
get records.

1579
01:26:29,220 --> 01:26:31,380
But you know, other than that I
I hope.

1580
01:26:32,440 --> 01:26:35,720
I hope my role would be nothing
but to to to try to follow the

1581
01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:41,080
spirit and to do ideation with
people, really sit down and have

1582
01:26:41,080 --> 01:26:44,120
a lot of discussions and people
can make decisions.

1583
01:26:44,960 --> 01:26:50,200
I'm actually really scared of
the idea of being on on on on a

1584
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:53,400
top, at the top, you know, I
don't like the idea of top down

1585
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:58,640
authority very often.
I I would hope that.

1586
01:27:00,450 --> 01:27:02,330
I feel like when I pray, the
Lord just kind of tells me not

1587
01:27:02,330 --> 01:27:04,810
to worry about those things and
just kind of keep going forward

1588
01:27:04,810 --> 01:27:08,330
and and just organizing and and
doing what I can to to get the

1589
01:27:08,330 --> 01:27:11,970
job done.
So don't know exactly where I

1590
01:27:11,970 --> 01:27:16,210
see what I'd be doing besides
just hopefully every day picking

1591
01:27:16,210 --> 01:27:18,690
away at this and I don't I don't
have to work right now either.

1592
01:27:18,690 --> 01:27:22,570
So I have a lot of time and
especially doing the web design,

1593
01:27:22,570 --> 01:27:26,290
I can do a lot of web design and
so I'll probably be really busy

1594
01:27:27,130 --> 01:27:30,250
helping with that.
How are we going?

1595
01:27:30,330 --> 01:27:36,570
How would you see everybody
staying kind of on task without

1596
01:27:36,930 --> 01:27:40,810
a hierarchy, right?
Because I am with you.

1597
01:27:40,810 --> 01:27:44,210
I think too much hierarchy can
be can be a bad thing, right?

1598
01:27:45,050 --> 01:27:50,850
At the same time, there you do.
Common sense just dictates.

1599
01:27:51,980 --> 01:27:54,020
You've got to have a deadline on
something, right?

1600
01:27:54,020 --> 01:27:55,660
You got, you got.
That discussion.

1601
01:27:55,660 --> 01:27:58,340
To you, you've got to be able to
hit this mark, right?

1602
01:27:58,340 --> 01:28:01,380
We got to get this out.
Or else you just sit there and

1603
01:28:01,540 --> 01:28:04,380
it becomes like college, right?
You, you're a professor, you

1604
01:28:04,380 --> 01:28:07,260
don't have any real, yeah,
deadlines or issues.

1605
01:28:07,580 --> 01:28:09,580
But I mean, how?
How are you going to make sure

1606
01:28:09,580 --> 01:28:12,140
that, that that those things are
being met?

1607
01:28:12,580 --> 01:28:16,740
Because without some sort of
structure I don't know how it

1608
01:28:16,740 --> 01:28:19,780
works.
You know that when there is

1609
01:28:19,780 --> 01:28:22,220
going to be actually a really
clear structure.

1610
01:28:23,340 --> 01:28:26,820
I was talking to a friend the
other day and who's probably

1611
01:28:26,820 --> 01:28:27,900
going to be helping out with
this.

1612
01:28:28,220 --> 01:28:31,220
You know him quite well.
That was Freeman.

1613
01:28:31,220 --> 01:28:33,500
Freeman, you know, we had a
Freeman and I've talked about

1614
01:28:33,500 --> 01:28:36,260
this a bit too, and he kind of
brought up the structure thing

1615
01:28:36,260 --> 01:28:38,620
and you know himself that that
was something he felt like maybe

1616
01:28:38,620 --> 01:28:42,060
there was some room to discuss.
And so afterwards I started to

1617
01:28:42,060 --> 01:28:43,940
really pray, especially with the
podcast coming up.

1618
01:28:44,690 --> 01:28:47,210
And I guess the first thing I
need to say is everything needs

1619
01:28:47,210 --> 01:28:50,210
to be voluntary responsibility,
and everything needs to be a

1620
01:28:50,210 --> 01:28:52,610
sense of order rather than a
sense of authority.

1621
01:28:53,010 --> 01:28:55,770
And that anyone who really wants
to help should hopefully have a

1622
01:28:55,770 --> 01:28:57,890
very strong idea of what they're
helping with.

1623
01:28:57,890 --> 01:29:00,090
So there doesn't have to be
authority trips now, okay.

1624
01:29:00,090 --> 01:29:02,730
So as far as assignments and
deadlines and structure goes,

1625
01:29:04,330 --> 01:29:08,770
the way I see this first of all
is is someone presiding.

1626
01:29:08,810 --> 01:29:11,890
Not really presiding, but
helping organize over the whole

1627
01:29:11,890 --> 01:29:12,530
thing.
But.

1628
01:29:13,000 --> 01:29:16,080
Focusing on one of the three
prongs themselves and then

1629
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:19,000
within each of those prongs
there's really going to be 4

1630
01:29:19,000 --> 01:29:22,840
major categories of work to be
done and and one person

1631
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:24,560
hopefully who can look over
those.

1632
01:29:25,040 --> 01:29:27,880
And then within each one of
those four, hopefully seven

1633
01:29:28,200 --> 01:29:29,920
people will be encouraged to
help.

1634
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:34,520
Also there will be families and
individuals who might get

1635
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:37,280
excited and get online and and
see what the study topics are

1636
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:39,400
and they'll start searching up
study topics and adding them.

1637
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:44,210
But as far as deadlines go?
Obviously we have to say, hey,

1638
01:29:44,210 --> 01:29:47,250
we have one month or two months
to kind of knock this topic out.

1639
01:29:47,250 --> 01:29:50,730
But I don't really think it's
going to work like that.

1640
01:29:50,970 --> 01:29:56,050
I think that I think if things
don't get done, that's okay.

1641
01:29:56,570 --> 01:30:00,130
What we're doing is good.
You know what, what's going to

1642
01:30:00,130 --> 01:30:03,730
be done can be done totally
voluntarily.

1643
01:30:03,730 --> 01:30:06,290
And if someone you know, if
they're not doing a lot of work

1644
01:30:06,810 --> 01:30:09,450
and someone who's doing more
work, you know, maybe they can

1645
01:30:09,450 --> 01:30:12,780
voluntarily.
Change some kind of role.

1646
01:30:13,020 --> 01:30:16,060
All I all I know is that it
needs to be, it does need to be

1647
01:30:16,060 --> 01:30:18,580
really organized but it also
needs to respect everybody's

1648
01:30:18,580 --> 01:30:23,340
family time, I mean as much as
possible.

1649
01:30:23,340 --> 01:30:26,620
So, so I guess we'll have to
cross those bridges sort of as

1650
01:30:26,620 --> 01:30:28,980
they arrived.
But right away, I would say that

1651
01:30:31,180 --> 01:30:32,940
some things may take longer than
we hope.

1652
01:30:33,300 --> 01:30:35,740
Right.
You know, it depends who wants

1653
01:30:35,740 --> 01:30:40,140
to help and how much.
Where are you at in this whole

1654
01:30:40,140 --> 01:30:44,360
process right now?
I mean, have has any of this

1655
01:30:44,360 --> 01:30:47,440
work started yet?
Is this all still in kind of

1656
01:30:47,440 --> 01:30:49,480
planning stages?
Where is this all at?

1657
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:54,360
You know it is started.
So I got.

1658
01:30:54,480 --> 01:30:57,000
I was impressed before I even
decided how this would all work

1659
01:30:57,000 --> 01:30:59,240
out.
I was impressed to go after a

1660
01:30:59,240 --> 01:31:02,760
prayer to go get who has
keys.org and and coming under

1661
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:04,360
christ.org.
And I thought, gosh, that can't

1662
01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:06,760
be available as I looked at you
know, but I knew it, I felt

1663
01:31:06,760 --> 01:31:08,000
right.
So I looked it up and they both

1664
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:14,740
where I snagged them and then.
Started just collecting records

1665
01:31:14,740 --> 01:31:16,980
and measuring scripture, law and
reaching out to as many people

1666
01:31:16,980 --> 01:31:21,460
as I could.
So in some sense there are quite

1667
01:31:21,460 --> 01:31:24,540
a, I mean, a pretty big handful
of good people want want to help

1668
01:31:24,540 --> 01:31:27,420
and there's a bit of order.
But at the same time, we're not

1669
01:31:27,420 --> 01:31:31,060
that far along at all because I
don't want to be a decision

1670
01:31:31,060 --> 01:31:32,580
maker.
I don't want to be a man on an

1671
01:31:32,580 --> 01:31:35,060
island decision maker.
I feel like it's really

1672
01:31:35,060 --> 01:31:37,860
important that as people come
together and discuss and pray.

1673
01:31:38,360 --> 01:31:41,240
And decide they want to help,
that we kind of wait to solidify

1674
01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:45,160
how the organization works and
then the work can really start

1675
01:31:45,160 --> 01:31:47,800
to go.
But even right now someone could

1676
01:31:47,800 --> 01:31:50,920
get on who has keys.org and I
would invite anyone to do this

1677
01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:53,920
that wants to and they can put
an e-mail in, in a preferred

1678
01:31:53,920 --> 01:31:57,360
name and and hit subscribe.
They're not going to get

1679
01:31:57,360 --> 01:31:59,840
anything, but it's going to
create an account right away

1680
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:03,000
that we can see with an e-mail
and a preferred name, which is

1681
01:32:03,000 --> 01:32:05,000
really quite vague.
Later, if they want to share

1682
01:32:05,000 --> 01:32:08,240
more information, they can.
And they can do that on either

1683
01:32:08,240 --> 01:32:10,600
who has keys.org or coming under
christ.org.

1684
01:32:11,920 --> 01:32:16,760
Perfect.
And then my my next question is,

1685
01:32:16,760 --> 01:32:21,760
is when when do you do you have
an idea of when you want to see

1686
01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:25,680
something put out there, when
you want to see something, when

1687
01:32:25,680 --> 01:32:28,240
people can start looking forward
to this coming out?

1688
01:32:28,400 --> 01:32:32,960
Yeah, absolutely.
Very likely this upcoming

1689
01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:35,900
spring.
This winter we're actually going

1690
01:32:35,900 --> 01:32:39,140
to be hopefully in Missouri.
We have some land out there and

1691
01:32:39,140 --> 01:32:44,100
the plan was to go and pitch
camp more or less and just do

1692
01:32:44,100 --> 01:32:48,380
this all the time and and then
create a really nice folder that

1693
01:32:48,380 --> 01:32:51,180
has the five cycles on there and
a whole bunch of information.

1694
01:32:51,180 --> 01:32:53,620
And and start really going out
and sitting down at people and

1695
01:32:53,620 --> 01:32:56,220
talking and giving them a
mailing address that that works

1696
01:32:56,220 --> 01:32:58,340
well so people can start really
working together and

1697
01:32:58,340 --> 01:33:00,710
collaborating.
But I don't think that that's

1698
01:33:00,710 --> 01:33:03,230
really going to be ready until
at least the middle of the

1699
01:33:03,230 --> 01:33:04,990
winter.
You know, that's kind of, I

1700
01:33:04,990 --> 01:33:07,510
think, how long it will take.
Although again though, people

1701
01:33:07,510 --> 01:33:10,430
who, you know, it could just be
a month from now that we

1702
01:33:10,430 --> 01:33:14,510
actually have the group document
editing software ready so that

1703
01:33:14,510 --> 01:33:16,550
people can start getting on
there and uploading all their

1704
01:33:16,550 --> 01:33:18,990
references.
In fact, right now someone can

1705
01:33:18,990 --> 01:33:20,790
get on there and they can click
it and it'll take them to a

1706
01:33:20,790 --> 01:33:23,770
Google Docs link.
So they could start, but the

1707
01:33:23,770 --> 01:33:26,130
problem is I don't have the
Google Docs pages organized and

1708
01:33:26,170 --> 01:33:29,130
I don't think that's necessarily
going to be the right software.

1709
01:33:29,130 --> 01:33:32,410
I think we'll probably get a
paid software that can hold and

1710
01:33:32,410 --> 01:33:36,170
I think Google Docs holds like
160 people editing at one time

1711
01:33:36,170 --> 01:33:37,690
or something, which is probably
plenty.

1712
01:33:37,690 --> 01:33:40,490
But at the same time I would, I
would really just like to see,

1713
01:33:41,890 --> 01:33:44,930
you know, things as well done as
they can be.

1714
01:33:44,930 --> 01:33:47,970
So I'd kind of prefer to put
some money into getting the best

1715
01:33:48,650 --> 01:33:51,020
group document editing software.
Right on.

1716
01:33:51,620 --> 01:33:56,460
And then, because I always find
this is important when when you

1717
01:33:56,460 --> 01:34:00,060
plan to do something, what do
you think your biggest struggle

1718
01:34:00,060 --> 01:34:01,380
is going to be in getting this
done?

1719
01:34:03,380 --> 01:34:11,980
Myself, you know, life, life has
a lot of, has a lot, there's a

1720
01:34:11,980 --> 01:34:17,500
lot to do and and secondly I
would say.

1721
01:34:18,570 --> 01:34:21,250
People being concerned, I want
to be mighty and strong.

1722
01:34:21,810 --> 01:34:23,330
I think that that's another
concern.

1723
01:34:23,330 --> 01:34:25,330
The reality is I don't want
authority over anybody.

1724
01:34:25,330 --> 01:34:28,530
I'm a very free man.
But you know, I don't see much

1725
01:34:28,530 --> 01:34:31,090
of A concern other than that.
In fact, I just, I really

1726
01:34:31,090 --> 01:34:34,810
strongly see the possibilities.
If people can bring some more

1727
01:34:34,810 --> 01:34:36,410
concerns to me, I'd love to see
them.

1728
01:34:36,890 --> 01:34:40,330
But you know, honestly, I feel
like this research benefits all

1729
01:34:40,330 --> 01:34:42,650
sorts of people, including
people in the Mother Church.

1730
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:46,760
Just a place for truth and
records and those who are coming

1731
01:34:46,760 --> 01:34:49,400
out of the church, being able to
clearly trace what's going on

1732
01:34:49,400 --> 01:34:52,160
and what already happened in the
fundamentalist community without

1733
01:34:52,240 --> 01:34:55,120
digging around everywhere.
So I just don't think we're

1734
01:34:55,120 --> 01:34:58,080
gonna hit any huge obstacles.
And if we do, we take them as

1735
01:34:58,080 --> 01:34:58,880
they come.
I don't know.

1736
01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:00,600
Do you have any obstacles you
can think of?

1737
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:04,000
Not really.
I don't know.

1738
01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:06,640
I'm sure there's some out there.
Yeah.

1739
01:35:07,410 --> 01:35:09,170
I don't know.
The only two I feel like I keep

1740
01:35:09,170 --> 01:35:11,810
running into is people may not
want to share their journals and

1741
01:35:11,810 --> 01:35:13,130
records.
That's what I was.

1742
01:35:13,170 --> 01:35:14,890
Thinking.
And I feel like after I've

1743
01:35:14,890 --> 01:35:17,290
discussed stuff with people,
they start to see more and more

1744
01:35:17,290 --> 01:35:19,690
like, OK, you're right, we don't
need to be so secretive about

1745
01:35:19,690 --> 01:35:21,210
this.
We can share.

1746
01:35:21,570 --> 01:35:23,410
And the other one is that people
won't change.

1747
01:35:23,570 --> 01:35:25,570
And I say, well, great, that's
the whole point.

1748
01:35:25,570 --> 01:35:28,330
No one needs to change.
We just need to give them the

1749
01:35:28,330 --> 01:35:29,690
truth.
So if they want to, they can,

1750
01:35:29,690 --> 01:35:32,090
yeah.
And if it helps just one person,

1751
01:35:32,090 --> 01:35:35,670
like, that's really just enough.
When you say change, what do you

1752
01:35:35,670 --> 01:35:37,390
mean?
You you have to have something

1753
01:35:37,390 --> 01:35:40,510
in mind because you've said that
a couple of times.

1754
01:35:40,510 --> 01:35:42,030
What do you mean, people
changing?

1755
01:35:42,230 --> 01:35:45,910
Well, you know, and since it's
not my concern, I'm not exactly

1756
01:35:45,910 --> 01:35:48,670
sure what people mean when they
keep telling that to me.

1757
01:35:48,670 --> 01:35:50,990
People won't change just because
you tell them what's true or

1758
01:35:50,990 --> 01:35:53,230
they see the truth.
I think that in a lot of

1759
01:35:53,230 --> 01:35:56,750
people's minds, when they when
they say that, I feel like the

1760
01:35:56,750 --> 01:35:59,990
message I've been getting is
whatever organization they're

1761
01:35:59,990 --> 01:36:02,670
in, they're not going to leave
it just because.

1762
01:36:03,420 --> 01:36:05,060
There was a spot to go and see
the truth.

1763
01:36:05,100 --> 01:36:07,260
Or if they were independent,
that's not going to change them.

1764
01:36:09,060 --> 01:36:11,540
And and I actually, I disagree
with that.

1765
01:36:11,940 --> 01:36:15,980
I have a faith that people do
change anyway, and if they

1766
01:36:15,980 --> 01:36:19,180
don't, it doesn't matter to me.
I think of the Book of Mormon,

1767
01:36:19,340 --> 01:36:25,380
and I want to say it was Ammon
who talked about how much joy he

1768
01:36:25,380 --> 01:36:29,430
got from saving just one soul.
And and on that note, I would

1769
01:36:29,430 --> 01:36:33,030
also look at Alma the Elder when
he was one of the wicked priest

1770
01:36:33,030 --> 01:36:36,510
at King Noah in a Benedite heard
of Benedite's testimony that one

1771
01:36:36,510 --> 01:36:39,230
man made a huge change that
affected the world.

1772
01:36:39,990 --> 01:36:42,310
You know, we have record of that
and it's beautiful.

1773
01:36:42,310 --> 01:36:47,880
So, yeah, you know, but.
Even if, even if people just

1774
01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:50,720
read it and they felt the Spirit
and they felt like they learned

1775
01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:53,440
something true that benefited
them, I would consider that a

1776
01:36:53,440 --> 01:36:55,880
good change.
I don't know if they need to

1777
01:36:55,880 --> 01:36:57,520
switch organizations
necessarily.

1778
01:36:57,520 --> 01:37:01,920
I feel like because of my belief
in the universal church, you

1779
01:37:01,920 --> 01:37:04,680
know, I feel like there's a lot
of flexibility sometimes, you

1780
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:07,400
know, like I'm grateful the Lord
hopefully won't call me to go

1781
01:37:07,400 --> 01:37:10,020
out to Africa.
And and go out and be a

1782
01:37:10,020 --> 01:37:12,740
missionary out there and do
service like I I really wouldn't

1783
01:37:12,740 --> 01:37:14,940
be good at that and I feel like
some people have had the spirit

1784
01:37:14,940 --> 01:37:17,460
rot upon them to go out and
preach Christianity and other

1785
01:37:17,460 --> 01:37:20,740
countries where the you know the
mother church can't even get and

1786
01:37:20,740 --> 01:37:22,940
so anyway.
Awesome.

1787
01:37:24,220 --> 01:37:26,340
Well, is there anything that we
didn't cover that you want to

1788
01:37:26,740 --> 01:37:28,900
plug or cover or anything like
that?

1789
01:37:32,180 --> 01:37:36,100
Yeah, on the community prong I
would love to see.

1790
01:37:37,290 --> 01:37:41,650
Music and artwork and a great
place for people to also buy

1791
01:37:41,650 --> 01:37:43,410
some of the best fundamentalist
literature.

1792
01:37:44,210 --> 01:37:46,730
I know that you can find it
anyway by researching and dig it

1793
01:37:46,810 --> 01:37:49,570
out, but you know, it'd be great
to see people who have artwork

1794
01:37:49,570 --> 01:37:52,570
and stuff also start to share
those if they want to so that

1795
01:37:52,570 --> 01:37:56,050
you know it'd be great to have
beautiful paintings of some of

1796
01:37:56,050 --> 01:37:59,250
the the history there.
I was just talking to a guy this

1797
01:37:59,250 --> 01:38:03,130
weekend about that that that as
fundamentalist, I feel like we

1798
01:38:03,130 --> 01:38:05,900
have.
And untapped resource.

1799
01:38:05,900 --> 01:38:11,300
There's a lot of talented people
and they're they're I mean I

1800
01:38:11,300 --> 01:38:16,620
even know a guy who I'm I'm
talking with now or or we we

1801
01:38:16,620 --> 01:38:19,940
keep just missing each other But
someone that maybe writes some

1802
01:38:19,940 --> 01:38:25,740
music for the show right who's
who's you know a fundamentalist

1803
01:38:25,740 --> 01:38:30,140
right he's but he plays you know
small venue concerts and those

1804
01:38:30,140 --> 01:38:32,020
sorts of things.
I really dig his music.

1805
01:38:33,610 --> 01:38:36,290
But also great artists, right?
Great writers.

1806
01:38:36,290 --> 01:38:39,770
I think a Drew Briny I, I think
Jacob would dream does a good

1807
01:38:39,770 --> 01:38:42,610
job of of documentary kind of
writing.

1808
01:38:42,610 --> 01:38:45,890
I, I.
And so I I think, I think if

1809
01:38:45,890 --> 01:38:48,570
there's one thing that I will
meant for and fundamentalism is

1810
01:38:48,570 --> 01:38:54,090
that we haven't done a good job
of creating kind of a cohesive

1811
01:38:54,810 --> 01:39:00,810
culture, right.
The, the, the the LDS church is

1812
01:39:00,810 --> 01:39:05,450
really good with their artwork.
Yeah, and even their music, and

1813
01:39:05,850 --> 01:39:08,730
I feel like we're lacking there
and we can really benefit from

1814
01:39:08,730 --> 01:39:09,690
that.
Nice.

1815
01:39:10,610 --> 01:39:12,610
No, I don't.
Do you have anything else,

1816
01:39:12,610 --> 01:39:19,850
honey, that you've thought of?
Not necessarily.

1817
01:39:20,050 --> 01:39:23,170
I think you covered.
You know, I would add though

1818
01:39:25,410 --> 01:39:29,040
that.
That I really do hope that a lot

1819
01:39:29,040 --> 01:39:32,160
of the different local churches
that we have with different

1820
01:39:32,240 --> 01:39:35,640
priesthood will will see the
truth and we'll find a way to

1821
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:38,960
obtain whatever is a cleaner
line of priesthood.

1822
01:39:39,400 --> 01:39:42,000
You know, once that's
demonstrated or I hope they will

1823
01:39:42,000 --> 01:39:45,760
make changes and and I hope that
eventually we can even get to

1824
01:39:45,760 --> 01:39:49,800
the point where if we have to
and people are working together,

1825
01:39:50,080 --> 01:39:54,040
temples can be built or meeting
houses can be located and built.

1826
01:39:54,500 --> 01:39:56,980
Where a lot of people who want
to come together and they want

1827
01:39:56,980 --> 01:40:01,620
that brotherhood regardless of
their differences can go.

1828
01:40:01,620 --> 01:40:04,060
And I think that what's going on
in the law branch in Missouri is

1829
01:40:04,060 --> 01:40:07,220
a really good example of people
who are already trying to do

1830
01:40:07,220 --> 01:40:08,380
that.
I know what they're doing out

1831
01:40:08,380 --> 01:40:12,740
there is controversial, and I
agree it's controversial, but at

1832
01:40:12,740 --> 01:40:15,420
the same time I feel like
they're being moved by the

1833
01:40:15,420 --> 01:40:18,820
Spirit.
You said something there I want

1834
01:40:18,820 --> 01:40:21,100
to explore.
You said a cleaner line of

1835
01:40:21,500 --> 01:40:24,590
priesthood.
Explain that.

1836
01:40:25,070 --> 01:40:27,670
All right.
So because you're about to open

1837
01:40:27,670 --> 01:40:30,110
up a whole can of worms, right?
Go ahead, go ahead.

1838
01:40:30,110 --> 01:40:33,390
You know, I've discussed this a
lot and I know this, this topic

1839
01:40:33,390 --> 01:40:35,790
has a lot of different facets,
so it can get complicated.

1840
01:40:35,790 --> 01:40:41,150
You know what I mean by that is
if if people decide like I did

1841
01:40:41,150 --> 01:40:44,230
to try to find the presiding
high priest and and I would

1842
01:40:44,230 --> 01:40:47,470
definitely argue really
strongly, there is a presiding

1843
01:40:47,470 --> 01:40:49,430
high priest over the Mel KAZIDIC
priesthood.

1844
01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:52,320
After Joseph died, someone
became the next presiding high

1845
01:40:52,320 --> 01:40:53,840
priest, and they're not attached
by group.

1846
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:55,240
And I think that that's
doctrinal.

1847
01:40:55,440 --> 01:40:57,720
A very doctrinal.
Doesn't have to be a one man or

1848
01:40:57,720 --> 01:41:00,520
anything, but if people want to
find who that presiding high

1849
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:05,320
priest is, if they agree with
me, then then they got to take a

1850
01:41:05,320 --> 01:41:10,000
look at what laws govern the
presiding high priest position.

1851
01:41:10,640 --> 01:41:13,040
And so for me.
You know, and I understand

1852
01:41:13,040 --> 01:41:14,840
there's a lot of people out
there who've been ordained as a

1853
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:17,640
high priest or they even got
their second anointing, which

1854
01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:20,720
which is stated to give them the
rights to build the Kingdom.

1855
01:41:21,520 --> 01:41:24,600
So I respect and I honor that
authority and in fact, I think

1856
01:41:24,600 --> 01:41:27,520
Gary and Pinesdale, the guy I
traced to, I think he respects

1857
01:41:27,520 --> 01:41:28,960
and honors all their authority
too.

1858
01:41:30,640 --> 01:41:35,710
So.
So, so for me a clean line of

1859
01:41:35,710 --> 01:41:37,230
priesthood looked something
like.

1860
01:41:37,430 --> 01:41:39,590
I mean, like I said, a lot of
them are valid because if they

1861
01:41:39,590 --> 01:41:41,790
got the laying on of hands and
the principles of righteousness

1862
01:41:41,790 --> 01:41:44,910
are followed, great.
But for me what that looks like

1863
01:41:44,910 --> 01:41:49,750
is I wanted to see that someone
was the next worthy senior, or

1864
01:41:49,750 --> 01:41:54,350
they were appointed properly as
the second elder and that there

1865
01:41:54,350 --> 01:41:57,270
were witnesses present and that
there were no huge worthiness

1866
01:41:57,270 --> 01:41:58,830
claims against them that
couldn't be.

1867
01:41:58,830 --> 01:42:02,190
They weren't answered.
I also hope to see.

1868
01:42:02,700 --> 01:42:05,820
Somewhat cohesive teachings with
the actual doctrines that are,

1869
01:42:05,820 --> 01:42:07,300
you know, studied
comprehensively.

1870
01:42:07,740 --> 01:42:10,700
I also hope to see not a ton of
weird policies that really

1871
01:42:10,700 --> 01:42:13,260
contradict the freedom given to
people in the scriptures.

1872
01:42:13,860 --> 01:42:18,100
And so when I look at that whole
kind of set of things together

1873
01:42:18,100 --> 01:42:20,860
that that really should kind of
hopefully govern the high priest

1874
01:42:20,860 --> 01:42:27,070
or others then.
I just you know, I don't think I

1875
01:42:27,070 --> 01:42:29,470
can almost answer that without
explaining how I trace that

1876
01:42:29,470 --> 01:42:30,670
down.
Do you mind if I go over that?

1877
01:42:31,670 --> 01:42:34,470
Yeah so from from John Wooley I
feel like it looked pretty

1878
01:42:34,470 --> 01:42:36,030
clean.
It went to Lauren Wooley he was

1879
01:42:36,390 --> 01:42:39,390
he was the 2nd elder and I know
that there's some conflict with

1880
01:42:39,390 --> 01:42:42,230
Lauren Wooley but we won't you
know just on some of his

1881
01:42:42,230 --> 01:42:44,630
teachings.
I haven't studied him a ton, but

1882
01:42:45,350 --> 01:42:49,550
if we if we keep following at
least those basics set of laws I

1883
01:42:49,550 --> 01:42:54,790
set out, we can trace that down
pretty clearly to.

1884
01:42:55,990 --> 01:42:59,150
The the Joseph Musser and Rulan
Allred.

1885
01:43:00,630 --> 01:43:03,390
So I you know and and sorry, I
skipped over Leslie Broadbent

1886
01:43:03,390 --> 01:43:07,950
and John White Barlow.
I know that there's debate over

1887
01:43:07,990 --> 01:43:10,630
those positions.
But either way we can see that

1888
01:43:10,630 --> 01:43:15,030
Joseph Musser was absolutely
either the next worthy senior or

1889
01:43:15,030 --> 01:43:18,950
he was the next appointed after
John White Barlow to be

1890
01:43:18,950 --> 01:43:21,230
president.
And as far as we can tell, he

1891
01:43:21,230 --> 01:43:23,350
didn't have any huge worthiness
claims.

1892
01:43:24,700 --> 01:43:27,380
And I seem to be sticking pretty
close to doctrine.

1893
01:43:27,380 --> 01:43:30,860
So then I I look at this issue
with with Rulan Allred and

1894
01:43:30,860 --> 01:43:33,700
Joseph Musser, and I won't get
into depth on that, of course,

1895
01:43:33,700 --> 01:43:35,220
because there's so many
different angles.

1896
01:43:35,580 --> 01:43:40,860
But I've seen enough of the
doctrine to understand, at least

1897
01:43:40,860 --> 01:43:46,260
from where I'm coming from, that
that when people get old like

1898
01:43:46,260 --> 01:43:49,180
Musser was, they don't lose
their their spot as the

1899
01:43:49,180 --> 01:43:53,190
presiding high priest.
And I mean and we have examples

1900
01:43:53,190 --> 01:43:58,550
going back into the scriptures
of old men or Daning trying to

1901
01:43:58,550 --> 01:44:00,350
think of the name.
It wasn't Abraham.

1902
01:44:00,350 --> 01:44:02,710
I think it might have been Jacob
when he was older you know and

1903
01:44:02,710 --> 01:44:05,790
he swapped it crossed his hand
over the different sons heads

1904
01:44:05,790 --> 01:44:08,750
and it and his son Joseph was
kind of like hey no dad you got

1905
01:44:08,750 --> 01:44:10,750
it wrong.
I had my older son on the other

1906
01:44:10,750 --> 01:44:15,550
side said I I know he knew what
he was doing so we look at you

1907
01:44:15,550 --> 01:44:16,710
know.
So anyway, I'm saying that

1908
01:44:16,710 --> 01:44:19,820
Joseph Musser.
As far as I can tell standing

1909
01:44:19,820 --> 01:44:22,660
from back here, he followed
scripture law when he ordained

1910
01:44:22,660 --> 01:44:24,780
Roulon Allred.
Second Elder people are welcome

1911
01:44:24,780 --> 01:44:28,860
to believe otherwise, but I
think that the fact that Roulon

1912
01:44:28,860 --> 01:44:33,860
was called his second elder and
that was made known publicly in

1913
01:44:33,860 --> 01:44:37,020
the ordination did happen.
And then not only that muster

1914
01:44:37,020 --> 01:44:39,020
was still alive two more years
after that.

1915
01:44:39,020 --> 01:44:42,300
Almost so.
That in my mind the situation

1916
01:44:42,300 --> 01:44:44,660
circumstantially doesn't matter
too much.

1917
01:44:45,100 --> 01:44:47,420
Old men lose their minds and
they make mistakes.

1918
01:44:47,890 --> 01:44:50,290
And you have to carefully pick
through how to go through that.

1919
01:44:50,330 --> 01:44:54,050
But still he followed scripture
law when he worked in Roulon

1920
01:44:54,050 --> 01:44:55,930
Allred.
And I think Roulon's life

1921
01:44:55,930 --> 01:44:59,050
demonstrates that he was doing,
he was trying very hard to be an

1922
01:45:00,250 --> 01:45:02,010
incredible guy and to work
really hard.

1923
01:45:02,010 --> 01:45:05,450
So then I go down to Roulon
Allred and as I take a good look

1924
01:45:05,450 --> 01:45:10,850
at him, I see that he absolutely
had, at least in my mind, Owen

1925
01:45:10,850 --> 01:45:14,050
Allred picked out at his second
elder and successor.

1926
01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:18,680
And I haven't researched ton of
the worthiness claims against

1927
01:45:18,680 --> 01:45:22,280
Owen but I haven't found any.
And so and this is where it

1928
01:45:22,280 --> 01:45:24,480
starts to get really fun to me
when we're looking at this

1929
01:45:24,480 --> 01:45:28,160
because Owen Allred, you know,
he got mixed up in the whole

1930
01:45:28,160 --> 01:45:32,760
Virginia Hill lawsuit and and
you start to get a lot of

1931
01:45:32,760 --> 01:45:35,480
changes and I think that's
about, you know and so.

1932
01:45:36,240 --> 01:45:39,040
I look at that and I say okay,
as far as I can tell, I'm

1933
01:45:39,080 --> 01:45:41,760
starting to get concerned, but
I'm still not seeing.

1934
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:44,360
I didn't see a preach to trial
that made him unworthy.

1935
01:45:44,360 --> 01:45:48,880
I'm not seeing any huge issues.
So then I'm following that to

1936
01:45:48,880 --> 01:45:51,520
Lemoyne Jensen.
Then of course it starts to get

1937
01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:55,000
a little more complicated.
But still, if I'm looking at

1938
01:45:55,000 --> 01:45:57,840
some of the basic scripture
laws, it probably stuck with

1939
01:45:57,840 --> 01:46:02,680
Lemoyne, maybe not.
And so the moment that I can say

1940
01:46:02,680 --> 01:46:05,000
when it gets to Lynn Thompson,
for example, he would be the

1941
01:46:05,000 --> 01:46:06,740
next.
Guy appointed.

1942
01:46:07,100 --> 01:46:10,180
Then I can definitely say, whoa,
there's a huge issue here

1943
01:46:10,540 --> 01:46:14,940
because there was a giant
worthiness problem and they

1944
01:46:14,940 --> 01:46:17,420
went, I don't know how much of
this you looked into.

1945
01:46:17,460 --> 01:46:19,020
I spent a lot of time
researching this.

1946
01:46:19,020 --> 01:46:24,460
All this gets fun.
So the records I've seen, the

1947
01:46:24,460 --> 01:46:26,700
people I've talked to, I've been
up in Pinesdale a lot dealing

1948
01:46:26,700 --> 01:46:29,420
with this.
Showed that Lamoy or excuse me

1949
01:46:29,420 --> 01:46:32,520
Lynn.
He had.

1950
01:46:32,840 --> 01:46:35,080
There should have been a priest
at trial against some sexual

1951
01:46:35,080 --> 01:46:39,520
assault claims and six of the
men on the council all agreed to

1952
01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:44,400
the trial and they actually had
a professional investigator in

1953
01:46:44,400 --> 01:46:46,360
those kind of crimes who wasn't
going to do it for the

1954
01:46:46,360 --> 01:46:47,840
government.
He was going to do it just for

1955
01:46:47,840 --> 01:46:51,240
the priesthood.
And Lynn was the only one who

1956
01:46:51,240 --> 01:46:53,200
refused out of all seven of
them.

1957
01:46:53,760 --> 01:46:56,080
And so And then after he
refused, he received a

1958
01:46:56,080 --> 01:46:59,500
revelation that.
And I haven't seen the exact

1959
01:46:59,500 --> 01:47:01,860
revelation so I'll do my best to
put it.

1960
01:47:01,860 --> 01:47:06,380
But essentially that in DNCI
want to say it's 86 I'm thinking

1961
01:47:06,380 --> 01:47:10,100
of DNC107 I think it is 81
through So where it says that

1962
01:47:10,100 --> 01:47:13,500
the high priest can be tried
basically is revelations well

1963
01:47:13,500 --> 01:47:15,860
that's just for the church and
not the priesthood.

1964
01:47:15,940 --> 01:47:19,900
So I don't have to be tried and
a council for this.

1965
01:47:21,380 --> 01:47:25,460
So in my mind that was a huge
break of scripture law like I

1966
01:47:25,620 --> 01:47:27,580
that that doctrine as well in
DNC.

1967
01:47:27,950 --> 01:47:31,230
Specifically spells out that
nobody is above the justice of

1968
01:47:31,230 --> 01:47:35,310
God and and that's the point of
that And so and there's other

1969
01:47:35,310 --> 01:47:38,830
problems we could get into.
So then if I continue following

1970
01:47:38,830 --> 01:47:41,430
the trail of scripture law, my
next question was well then

1971
01:47:41,430 --> 01:47:44,430
who's the next worthy senior if
it wasn't Lynn, if it wasn't

1972
01:47:44,430 --> 01:47:46,470
Lynn Thompson.
We still have that scripture

1973
01:47:46,470 --> 01:47:48,870
laws.
It's whoever was ordained next

1974
01:47:48,870 --> 01:47:51,070
in order.
That goes to Marvin Jessup.

1975
01:47:51,710 --> 01:47:56,350
Marvin Jessup lived until 2018,
and he never did claim.

1976
01:47:56,870 --> 01:48:00,430
Like a lot of like Leslie
Broadbent, that's what I think.

1977
01:48:00,430 --> 01:48:01,950
Marv never claimed to have the
keys.

1978
01:48:01,950 --> 01:48:03,070
I've talked to some of his
wives.

1979
01:48:03,070 --> 01:48:06,270
I talked to a lot of his kids.
I love the Jessops.

1980
01:48:06,510 --> 01:48:09,950
He also didn't deny it.
He wouldn't deny it.

1981
01:48:09,950 --> 01:48:13,790
He said let the people decide
for themselves something to that

1982
01:48:13,790 --> 01:48:17,750
effect.
So anyway, that's how, you know,

1983
01:48:17,750 --> 01:48:20,150
that's kind of how I took an
approach on that.

1984
01:48:20,190 --> 01:48:22,590
And I think that there are clean
lines and I think there are

1985
01:48:22,590 --> 01:48:24,550
lines that I think there's a lot
more.

1986
01:48:25,240 --> 01:48:27,240
Obvious violations of priest in
law.

1987
01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:31,440
OK, so let me ask you this
because I'm, I'm processing here

1988
01:48:31,440 --> 01:48:33,920
everything you've said.
So it sounds like you're

1989
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:36,480
believer in in kind of a one man
doctrine.

1990
01:48:37,920 --> 01:48:40,080
Not necessarily.
But, well, you talked about

1991
01:48:40,080 --> 01:48:43,760
Presiding High Priest.
I I don't think that gets much

1992
01:48:43,760 --> 01:48:47,160
more one man than that, right?
I mean, everybody can do their

1993
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:50,440
own thing, so to speak, but you
think there's one guy at the

1994
01:48:50,440 --> 01:48:54,200
top?
You know, it's so hard to say

1995
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:59,120
yes to that just because there's
so many different understandings

1996
01:48:59,120 --> 01:49:01,920
and misunderstandings of what
being at the top means and what

1997
01:49:01,920 --> 01:49:03,360
kind of rights that gives
somebody.

1998
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:06,920
But I'm going to settle with
yes, just because I feel it's

1999
01:49:06,920 --> 01:49:08,520
confident there's a presiding
high priest.

2000
01:49:11,080 --> 01:49:15,520
So would getting a clean line of
priesthood then in your mind, be

2001
01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:18,280
everybody going to Is it Gary
Lee now?

2002
01:49:18,280 --> 01:49:19,960
Is that who you said you thought
it was?

2003
01:49:21,150 --> 01:49:25,830
Yeah, okay.
Would that now include to get

2004
01:49:25,830 --> 01:49:29,990
that clean line everybody
whether they're in the a UB, the

2005
01:49:29,990 --> 01:49:34,950
Peterson branch, some Lebarons,
Nielsen Naylors, just everybody

2006
01:49:34,950 --> 01:49:38,350
going and then getting a clean
line from?

2007
01:49:38,510 --> 01:49:42,350
Gary Lee, To put it as simply,
and I'm definitely stepping away

2008
01:49:42,350 --> 01:49:44,630
from towards Zion right now and
getting into my own thoughts,

2009
01:49:44,630 --> 01:49:48,750
but I think that if people think
it's wise, they should do it.

2010
01:49:49,620 --> 01:49:51,380
And I don't think this has
anything to do with Gary or the

2011
01:49:51,380 --> 01:49:54,860
guys in Pinesdale at all.
I'm not going to let you off the

2012
01:49:54,860 --> 01:49:58,460
hook that easy on this one
because this one, this one I

2013
01:49:58,460 --> 01:50:05,580
feel is important.
Any yes or no answer here with

2014
01:50:05,580 --> 01:50:10,180
getting a clean line involved
going to Gary Lee to get

2015
01:50:10,180 --> 01:50:12,500
ordained.
Probably not, because there are

2016
01:50:12,580 --> 01:50:15,860
other clean lines of priesthood.
So for example, we have

2017
01:50:15,860 --> 01:50:20,020
patriarchal priesthood, right.
I mean we've got people who have

2018
01:50:20,020 --> 01:50:23,740
their second anointings and so
if those people feel spiritually

2019
01:50:23,740 --> 01:50:26,180
they're in the right spot and
that looks good, good for them.

2020
01:50:26,540 --> 01:50:30,580
I would say though that as far
as once you know this gets

2021
01:50:30,580 --> 01:50:33,380
complicated, you know so once
geographical boundaries start to

2022
01:50:33,380 --> 01:50:38,930
mix, you know so.
Like in D&CI noticed, you know

2023
01:50:38,930 --> 01:50:41,850
the let's just say for example
an L it said an elder can

2024
01:50:41,850 --> 01:50:44,210
officiate in these duties when
no one else is present.

2025
01:50:44,570 --> 01:50:45,890
Okay.
Well, what happens now that

2026
01:50:45,890 --> 01:50:49,690
we've got five different elders
here in three different groups

2027
01:50:50,170 --> 01:50:52,410
and they're all present with
slightly different belief

2028
01:50:52,410 --> 01:50:54,010
system.
So what's the smartest thing to

2029
01:50:54,010 --> 01:50:57,490
do there?
And and my personal take on

2030
01:50:57,490 --> 01:51:02,410
this, and this doesn't bear on
towards Zion at all, is that I

2031
01:51:02,410 --> 01:51:05,780
think it's wisest.
To take a really close look at

2032
01:51:05,780 --> 01:51:10,820
the scriptures and figure out
that and hopefully all find a

2033
01:51:10,820 --> 01:51:12,980
way to start to work together.
But at the same time, I would

2034
01:51:12,980 --> 01:51:15,300
even add that's not always maybe
smart, you know, I don't know,

2035
01:51:15,300 --> 01:51:18,100
Like for example in the church,
you know, Polynesians have a lot

2036
01:51:18,100 --> 01:51:20,020
different culture than a lot of
the Latter Day Saints.

2037
01:51:20,020 --> 01:51:21,820
And they have their own awards,
sometimes in their own.

2038
01:51:22,460 --> 01:51:25,060
Even see the mother church
trying to respect that checks

2039
01:51:25,060 --> 01:51:27,500
and balances of agency for
different countries in different

2040
01:51:27,500 --> 01:51:30,300
places.
And I I still always think that

2041
01:51:30,420 --> 01:51:33,420
it has to come down to personal
revelation.

2042
01:51:33,820 --> 01:51:35,060
Okay.
Cool.

2043
01:51:35,300 --> 01:51:38,260
No, that's good.
Well dude, I can't wait to see

2044
01:51:38,260 --> 01:51:40,580
this thing roll out.
This will be interesting to

2045
01:51:40,580 --> 01:51:42,220
watch.
Thanks, Dave.

2046
01:51:42,260 --> 01:51:45,700
And it means, like, it means the
world to me that you had Nicole

2047
01:51:45,700 --> 01:51:50,100
and I on here.
I I feel like, I'll be honest,

2048
01:51:50,100 --> 01:51:52,340
I'm a nobody, you know?
Like I've met a ton of people.

2049
01:51:52,340 --> 01:51:55,100
I've made a lot of friends, but
I've just been working to the

2050
01:51:55,100 --> 01:51:57,180
club.
I I feel the same way.

2051
01:51:57,220 --> 01:52:01,060
You're good you know that's
yeah, no, that's that's good.

2052
01:52:01,060 --> 01:52:05,070
So awesome, dude.
No, I keep us informed too, as

2053
01:52:05,070 --> 01:52:08,790
as thing moves along as you hit
milestones, let's have you back

2054
01:52:08,790 --> 01:52:11,510
on whichever you talk about it.
Wow, I would absolutely love

2055
01:52:11,510 --> 01:52:12,110
that.
Thank you.

2056
01:52:12,350 --> 01:52:14,430
Fantastic.
Thanks for coming on guys.

2057
01:52:14,670 --> 01:52:16,390
Thanks, Dave.
Bye, everybody.

2058
01:52:41,170 --> 01:52:43,770
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.