Episode #88: Exploring Zion W/Jesse Fisher

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Next week we'll be picking back
up with our Exploring the

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Branches of Fundamentalism
series, and trust me, you're not

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going to want to miss next
week's episode, so stay tuned

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for that.
But on this episode, I want to

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explore another gospel topic.
As Mormons, we all seem to have

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baked into our spiritual DNAA
longing for Zion.

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Overtime, however, the
definition of what Zion actually

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is has changed.
Zion went from an actual place

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in time and space to some sort
of weird, ethereal idea of

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building Zion in our hearts,
homes, and wherever the Saints

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are gathered.
This, however, isn't really

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accurate when you look at
statements from the leaders of

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the founding generation of
Mormonism.

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Today on the podcast I have on
Jesse Fischer.

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Jesse is a devout member of the
LDS Church who has written a

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book called Champions for Zion,
which takes quotes from early

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church leaders of the LDS Church
and puts the idea of Zion back

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into its proper context.
Not only do we talk about

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Jesse's book and some of those
early teachings about Zion, but

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we also have a very interesting
conversation about a project

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that he is a part of to build
communities that are not

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affiliated with the LDS Church
that are stepping stones to Zion

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type communities.
Stick around as we explore Zion

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on this episode of the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse to become and
raise men and women of virtue

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and characters, a Herculean
task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com.

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Go to the bottom of the page,
search out the blog post, and

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order your copy today.
I can bear personal testimony

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from personal experience that
this is an invaluable tool to

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help you raise men and women of
virtue and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade Podcast.

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Jesse, it's nice to see you,
man.

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It's nice to be here.
Appreciate the invite.

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So I got to tell you, I get, I
get quite a few people who reach

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out to me and say, oh you need
to have so and so on the phone

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on the program where you need to
have this guy on the program.

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And and I always take those
really seriously but the ones I

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take super seriously are when I
get people telling me that

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multiple times about one person
and your name came up like twice

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in two weeks and I'm like okay,
this is I I better reach out

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here.
I better, I better do my due

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diligence on this.
So as as Mormons, I I think we

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all have kind of built within
our, I don't know, theological

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DNA if you will, this, this
yearning for Zion a little bit.

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And so when when they had, you
know, mentioned to me that that

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you and a group of other folks
had started building kind of

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communities, right.
And I want to be super clear

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here, this isn't something
that's put on by the LDS church

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or anything like that.
This is a collection of

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individuals that have come
together and and it it it

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doesn't even sound like united
order, we'll get into that

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later.
This sounds more like likeminded

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people banding together and
living near each other to foster

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kind of the feeling of of Zion a
little bit.

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Is that a good assessment?
Yes, we don't, we don't use the

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Z word in our marketing at all.
Yeah, what we're trying to do is

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recreate.
Well, OKI am new to the project.

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In other words, I didn't start
this project.

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So I saw what they were doing
and it spoke to me and I said

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I'm in.
So we were the my wife and I

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were the 16th shareholders in
this land cooperative,

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agricultural land cooperative.
And it it matches what I think.

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No, it matches what I've read
that the Latter Day Saints were

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doing before they attempted the
United orders.

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And so I thought, Okay.
Well, supposedly we believe

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we're going to build the New
Jerusalem Zion Society.

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Maybe we should get some
practice in by the building.

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This what the early brethren
called the stepping stone to

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Zion, which was cooperative
communities, and Phillip

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Gleason, who started this
project in his presentation.

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I realized that's what this
guy's doing.

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I'm in.
So that's how I got involved.

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So, so real quick.
Steven Gleason.

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Was that the gentleman's name,
Sir?

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Phillip Phillip Gleason.
So he this was kind of his, his

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idea and and did he ever mention
to you what, what spurred him on

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to do this?
Well, in our introductory video

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that I made on YouTube, he
describes a story where he and

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his young family were caught in
the middle of the winter in a

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tiny Idaho town in a camping
trailer at midnight with.

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And it was about 0 degrees
inside the camping trailer.

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He and his three little
daughters and his wife were

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trying to stay warm and not
freeze to death.

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And he says that required my
brain.

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And from then on, he was very
into preparedness.

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He was into finding multiple
ways of of producing heat and

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fuel, you know, having fuel in a
crisis situation.

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In fact, he's done consulting
for.

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Preparedness and help help
people retrofit their houses.

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He's done commercial and
residential real estate for

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construction for I believe 30 or
40 years.

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So he had a background in
preparedness and and this idea

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just fell on his head and he
fought it.

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He thought that's never going to
work.

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But I don't know if you've ever
experienced this where an idea

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gets hold of you and it just
won't let go.

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And that's what happened to
Phillip.

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Yeah.
See.

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And so he kept fighting and
saying, no, that won't work.

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And and then this new idea would
come to him and he'd say, well,

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okay, maybe if we take it this
way, it might work.

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And finally he came up with this
system that he started proposing

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to friends and neighbors, and it
caught on.

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So now.
Now we have over 120 people

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living at our first community,
and we just bought land in

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Arizona near Snowflake for our
second community.

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Wow.
So yeah, So do you find it's

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predominantly LDS folks or
Mormon folks of whatever stripe

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that that show interest in this
well?

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That's The thing is, we're in
Utah, so Utah's what, 70% LDS of

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some form or another, I guess.
And so naturally our

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shareholders lean heavily
towards that.

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I know we assuming we don't ask
people what their religion or

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their or their politics are.
We're looking for people who

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want to live a self reliant
lifestyle, who want to

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transition away from being
dependent on the system to being

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independent with other people
doing the same thing.

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You know you can go.
You can go buy 20 acres up in

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the mountains, but you're on
your own in many ways.

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Yeah, so, So what was so your
LDS?

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Were you born LDS?
No.

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My family joined.
Missionaries found us when I was

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7, and then we joined when I was
8, which is.

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I can tell that brief story if
you like.

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We were a very contentious
family.

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Sarcasm was our language.
We spoke at home and so when the

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missionaries came, they brought
the spirit with them into our

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home.
And even as a 7 year old, 8 year

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old, I I could tell, in fact I
would stand at the screen door.

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This was in Texas.
Stand at the screen door when

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they would leave and I would
just kind of go.

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You know, Spirit left with them.
And so about when was it?

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Somewhere around January of
1970, they popped the question.

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Mr. And Missus Fisher, would you
like to get baptized?

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I leaped out of my chair.
Say yes, Mom.

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Say yes, Dad, because I knew we
needed what they had.

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And so in every sense of the
word, I'm a convert.

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And.
That's actually created some

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problems for me because we don't
seem to believe all the

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doctrines we teach.
Did I say that out loud?

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One of which is the concept of
Zion, which I've been absolutely

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fascinated with since I was a
kid.

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How'd you get fascinated in
that?

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Right.
Of all the things, because like

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I'm a convert as well, I was.
I was a convert to the LDS

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church, right?
And then and then became a

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fundamentalist.
But and like, there's the, the

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one thing about Mormonism, and
I've said this before, it's

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unlike any church I can think
of, right?

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You're not just showing up on
Sunday, no matter what stripe

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you are, right, whether that's
LDS because you have callings

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there and you have callings as a
fundamentalist.

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It's not enough to show up on
Sunday, shake a few hands, throw

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a couple bucks in the collection
plate and then go home.

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Doesn't work right.
This you have to do something.

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Like I remember when I was
learning about Mormonism and you

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know, it's like you're getting
in your wagon and you're going

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somewhere and you're going to do
something and then you find out

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it's, you know, you really start
putting the pieces together and

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it's in the Old West and you're
like okay, that's kind of

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straight up gangster, right?
I mean that's some tough as nail

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stuff that that just gets to
you.

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But also there's there's a whole
range of doctrine in there from,

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you know, it's unique in the
sense that Mormonism to, to my

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knowledge is the only theology
in which you can't get to where

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you want to be, which is
exaltation by yourself, right.

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So now you have this theological
family dynamic, right?

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And then you, you can branch off
and study, you know, LDS

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history, which is rich and
fascinating.

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And then, you know, like you
said, there's there's Zion.

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So.
So what was it that you think

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that pulled you in that
direction?

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Well, it's.
I remember it very clearly.

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Actually, the family, there were
two families that fellowshipped

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us when we joined the church.
Mark Benson as her T's son.

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And and then this other family.
I can't remember their names.

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I should ask my sister.
She'll probably remember.

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They were hardcore John
Birchers, and so they had given

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us.
A copy of None Dear Call it

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Conspiracy.
And it was sitting on our

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bookshelf and I was about, I
figure I was about 10 and I read

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that book Okay and it strongly
affected me.

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The the idea that there were
people who were willing to

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sacrifice other people's
freedoms for their own power

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gaining glory just really burned
me.

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And I even offered to God, I'll
I'll be happy to go assassinate,

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you know, John Kenneth or.
Ted Kennedy, if you want me to,

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but he didn't, thank goodness.
And and so you know, that really

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affected me to to realize that I
can't trust the media.

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I can't trust newspapers or TVI
can only trust God.

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I can trust the scriptures.
I can trust our church leaders.

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And then and then.
I married a fellow from Salt

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Lake when I was, I believe I was
15, and she gave me a book at

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that time when she got married
called Added Upon.

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It's a novel that was written in
1898, I believe by a fellow by

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the name of Nephi Anderson, and
obviously he's LDS.

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And in that book, the main
character gives the King of

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Poland a tour of the New
Jerusalem Zion Society.

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So I had I had the society that
none Derek colic Conspiracy said

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we were headed towards and then
I compared that with the New

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Jerusalem Zion society and I
said and so and then in college

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I read well actually it wasn't a
book yet Hugh Nibley's

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Approaching Zion was just a set
of talks or.

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What do you call them?
Articles.

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And I read several of those and
it just, it just, I realized

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that I had forgotten Zion and
had been pulled into Babylon

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with all its attractions, right.
I was going to be a success.

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00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:31,430
I was going to, you know, get
rich and then help the church.

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00:14:31,550 --> 00:14:35,950
A lot of people, I know a lot of
people use that excuse.

227
00:14:36,420 --> 00:14:39,700
Anyway, so reading Hugh Nibley
just really rocked my world and

228
00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:42,220
I said okay, I got to take this
seriously.

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00:14:42,740 --> 00:14:47,940
So since then I've been reading
just about everything I can get

230
00:14:47,940 --> 00:14:52,700
my hands on regarding Zion and
how.

231
00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:56,900
And again, the idea of should we
be preparing for it?

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00:14:57,860 --> 00:15:00,900
You know, every every time I got
asked to teach Elders Corner,

233
00:15:00,980 --> 00:15:04,900
guess what I thought about?
I thought about Zion.

234
00:15:05,830 --> 00:15:09,510
For 40 years I've been doing
that and I just see glazed over

235
00:15:09,510 --> 00:15:14,750
eyes in the in the group and I
just think, how are we going to

236
00:15:14,750 --> 00:15:17,830
do this if we don't move in that
direction?

237
00:15:18,670 --> 00:15:24,070
And so, So I've been looking at
my entire adult life for more

238
00:15:24,190 --> 00:15:27,630
Zion, like ways of organizing
society.

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00:15:28,630 --> 00:15:31,350
Zion isn't like you say.
Zion is a culture.

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00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:37,500
It's a it's a civilization.
Or Mormonism, if you will.

241
00:15:38,060 --> 00:15:43,940
And I got a cough drop in my
mouth.

242
00:15:44,460 --> 00:15:48,980
Oh no, you're just fine.
Let's see, where was I?

243
00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:53,380
So Zion is a society, it's a
civilization.

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00:15:53,780 --> 00:15:56,780
So it's going to have its own
unique education system.

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00:15:57,540 --> 00:15:59,940
It's going to have its own
unique governmental system.

246
00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:02,380
It's going to have its own
unique economic system.

247
00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:08,780
What could those look like?
What would be an interim step?

248
00:16:09,060 --> 00:16:13,340
You know, if you see Zion as a
as a Zion or as a celestial

249
00:16:13,340 --> 00:16:17,140
level society and we're living
in a telestial, that means

250
00:16:17,140 --> 00:16:20,260
there's got to be a terrestrial
stepping stone in between,

251
00:16:20,260 --> 00:16:22,740
right?
So what does that look like and

252
00:16:22,740 --> 00:16:26,300
how can we start?
Why wait?

253
00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:36,090
You know DNC 5826 through 28?
God wants us to do many good

254
00:16:36,090 --> 00:16:39,690
things of our own free will to
bring to pass much

255
00:16:39,690 --> 00:16:45,050
righteousness.
What would be more of a good

256
00:16:45,050 --> 00:16:49,330
thing to do than to start
working towards what he wants

257
00:16:49,330 --> 00:16:52,730
for us?
Zion is the society God wants us

258
00:16:52,730 --> 00:17:00,090
to enjoy while we're on earth,
so why are we so dedicated to

259
00:17:00,090 --> 00:17:04,040
sustaining and building Babylon?
It just baffles me.

260
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,640
Anyway, so I think that's a good
question and I think that's one

261
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,960
I want to explore later.
But but you said you talked

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00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:16,480
about that stepping stone.
And just this last week me and

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00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:21,160
my family took a trip went, went
to North Dakota 1st to see my

264
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,280
daughter and my grandchildren
And then I was like let's why

265
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:26,760
we're here.
We're not I mean we're not

266
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,400
horribly far from Navu.
Why don't we just swing out

267
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,520
there and we'll go to Adam on
Diaman and and then we went, you

268
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,760
know we went to Carthage and and
Far West and Liberty.

269
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:41,200
But here's what I came to
understand about Nauvoo right as

270
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:46,280
I was there and I think Nauvoo
was actually a step back.

271
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,880
I think they tried the United
order thing there in Missouri

272
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:56,570
and 1st off obviously there were
some mistakes made but also you

273
00:17:56,570 --> 00:18:00,050
have the persecutions and in
Nauvoo you you seem to almost

274
00:18:00,050 --> 00:18:03,050
start to get that that middle
step as you were talking about

275
00:18:03,410 --> 00:18:05,650
because I kind of asked some of
the folks around there, I was

276
00:18:05,650 --> 00:18:08,890
like okay.
So explain the the economics to

277
00:18:08,890 --> 00:18:13,850
me because they're coming from a
lot of them are coming from

278
00:18:13,850 --> 00:18:16,370
Missouri where they've tried
this are are they trying to do

279
00:18:16,370 --> 00:18:19,330
the same thing here.
And it was more of one of those

280
00:18:19,330 --> 00:18:22,090
things where it was that
stepping stone right where

281
00:18:22,090 --> 00:18:24,170
they're saying, well we were
still, they were still

282
00:18:24,170 --> 00:18:27,810
exchanging script.
But the difference was, is that

283
00:18:28,210 --> 00:18:30,130
it was all centered around the
community.

284
00:18:30,130 --> 00:18:33,690
So you went out of your way to
make sure that someone could get

285
00:18:33,690 --> 00:18:37,290
something from within the
community and and that was one

286
00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:39,250
way that I saw.
And then it was just fascinating

287
00:18:39,250 --> 00:18:41,770
that just, you know, three days
later I'm calling your phone.

288
00:18:41,770 --> 00:18:45,970
But yeah, it was it, it it
seemed to be like that, that

289
00:18:45,970 --> 00:18:47,970
almost like that training ground
a little bit.

290
00:18:49,850 --> 00:18:53,450
Yeah, I I have a chart.
I don't think it ended up in my

291
00:18:53,450 --> 00:18:57,250
book.
I have a chart that I drew in a

292
00:18:57,290 --> 00:19:02,770
present PowerPoint presentation
I gave once that showed that the

293
00:19:03,010 --> 00:19:08,210
the Joseph tried to bring us up
to the Celestinomics and we

294
00:19:08,210 --> 00:19:11,220
couldn't handle it.
So it dropped back down to

295
00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:15,260
telestial and and and and maybe
even terrestrial, like you say.

296
00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:19,860
But Brigham definitely tried to
get us to the telestial level or

297
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:21,660
terrestrial level, the middle
level.

298
00:19:22,820 --> 00:19:27,540
And then I think he tried too
soon to shift back up to the

299
00:19:27,540 --> 00:19:31,180
celestial level.
So they only did the

300
00:19:31,180 --> 00:19:35,140
cooperatives for 10 years.
And if you think about it, the

301
00:19:35,140 --> 00:19:38,220
Israelites were in the
wilderness for 40 years, waiting

302
00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:41,220
for the older.
Generation to die off.

303
00:19:41,660 --> 00:19:45,340
He and the Saints live
cooperative free enterprise for

304
00:19:45,340 --> 00:19:49,980
10 years and then tried to get
him to do the United order and

305
00:19:49,980 --> 00:19:53,300
within a year or two, 90% of
them failed.

306
00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:55,060
The the Saints just weren't
ready.

307
00:19:55,940 --> 00:19:58,940
And you know, we needed that
whole generation of people

308
00:19:58,940 --> 00:20:04,180
living the at least the
terrestrial level law before we

309
00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:06,940
can even attempt the sea Lester
level.

310
00:20:07,850 --> 00:20:11,050
And and maybe we can't even do
the Sea Lester level until

311
00:20:11,050 --> 00:20:19,290
Christ comes and the telestial
lights are exit stage left.

312
00:20:19,770 --> 00:20:21,810
Right.
Well, that that's certainly a

313
00:20:21,810 --> 00:20:24,610
possibility.
I know John Taylor and Brigham

314
00:20:24,610 --> 00:20:27,650
had some interesting quotes of,
you know, hey, the Lord's not

315
00:20:27,650 --> 00:20:30,970
going to come back till we have
a people prepared to receive.

316
00:20:30,970 --> 00:20:33,810
Moses 7 says that right, Says it
right there.

317
00:20:33,810 --> 00:20:41,850
Moses 758 or something, it says
that that Christ would come to

318
00:20:41,850 --> 00:20:44,490
Zion.
Well, he can't come to Zion if

319
00:20:44,490 --> 00:20:49,690
there's no Zion yet.
So can we move in that

320
00:20:49,690 --> 00:20:53,050
direction.
And and I have to admit the

321
00:20:53,050 --> 00:20:57,690
church has done some things that
push us in that direction like

322
00:20:57,690 --> 00:21:01,050
the, oh shoot, what's that
program called?

323
00:21:02,690 --> 00:21:07,690
Well, the self-reliance program
for example is it is at least an

324
00:21:07,690 --> 00:21:09,090
attempt to move in that
direction.

325
00:21:09,090 --> 00:21:14,330
And also the that rotating fund
for people to go to college,

326
00:21:14,410 --> 00:21:17,090
what's called.
Perpetual education fund, yeah,

327
00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:19,610
that.
So there has been some efforts

328
00:21:19,610 --> 00:21:22,370
to move in that direction.
And and one of the things that

329
00:21:22,530 --> 00:21:26,490
really surprised me, and I guess
we haven't talked about my book

330
00:21:26,490 --> 00:21:32,510
yet, really was when I was doing
the research for it was when it

331
00:21:32,510 --> 00:21:36,390
dawned on me when they talked
it, when when Brigham Young,

332
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:39,510
John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff,
George Cuchanan, Lorenzo Snow,

333
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:43,430
Joseph F Smith, when they talked
about Zion to them, it was an

334
00:21:43,430 --> 00:21:47,950
economic system.
And today in all these Zion

335
00:21:47,950 --> 00:21:54,760
books I have, and, you know, God
bless the authors, but it's all

336
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,520
this poof, poof.
You know, we're all we all have

337
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,320
to be nearly perfect before we
can build Zion.

338
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:05,360
No, that's not what they taught.
They taught we can build Zion

339
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:09,040
anytime we want.
All we have to do is want to bad

340
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,760
enough.
But like, like I joked earlier,

341
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,560
Babylon's just too much fun.
Yeah, but let's talk about your

342
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,880
book for a second, cuz I found
that absolutely fascinating

343
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,620
because.
There are some books that I

344
00:22:25,620 --> 00:22:29,780
certainly enjoy the the ones
that are just the author's

345
00:22:29,820 --> 00:22:33,900
thoughts on some things.
Yours I really liked in in what

346
00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:39,780
I've read so far.
Because your opinion is

347
00:22:39,780 --> 00:22:42,180
different in the sense that a
lot of times authors will take

348
00:22:42,180 --> 00:22:45,020
something, especially when when
you're dealing with theology or

349
00:22:45,020 --> 00:22:48,940
something like that.
It'll take a passage and then it

350
00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:52,340
seems to the the author will
kind of put his spin on it.

351
00:22:52,770 --> 00:22:57,370
This is what I think it says.
I enjoy yours because you kind

352
00:22:57,370 --> 00:23:00,850
of conformed your thinking to
what those early brethren said.

353
00:23:01,210 --> 00:23:04,490
And I found that super
refreshing, especially about

354
00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:07,090
this subject, right?
And that was the whole point of

355
00:23:07,090 --> 00:23:11,170
my research was to find out what
did they believe, what did they

356
00:23:11,170 --> 00:23:14,850
teach?
And the reason I was doing it is

357
00:23:16,550 --> 00:23:22,990
I was, I was set apart as the
secretary in our High Priest

358
00:23:22,990 --> 00:23:27,110
group.
And so as as part of the

359
00:23:27,310 --> 00:23:31,350
presidency, it was my role to
teach priesthood every quarter

360
00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:36,950
on the 5th Sunday, I believe.
And so obviously I would teach

361
00:23:36,950 --> 00:23:39,430
about Zion.
Well, we had the state president

362
00:23:39,430 --> 00:23:42,510
in our quorum who excommunicated
Avraham Giuliatti.

363
00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:47,060
He was in our quorum.
We had a a lifelong institute

364
00:23:47,060 --> 00:23:51,300
teacher, and then we had a
armchair scriptorian.

365
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:56,380
And these three were buddies and
I referred to them somewhat

366
00:23:56,380 --> 00:24:03,260
lovingly as our Ward Sanhedron.
And I knew, I knew that I had to

367
00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:08,100
substantiate anything I taught
about Zion with Scripture and

368
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:13,100
with words of the prophets.
And so I went on a four year

369
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:19,800
study to find out what did they
teach and that's that is the

370
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:24,360
whole basis of my belief about
what Zion is and how we can

371
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:27,320
build it and and what's
required.

372
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,520
And so I took.
So those all those quotes I

373
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,440
ended up finding, the book says
I found 700, but actually

374
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,920
there's more like 1000.
And I just as I'm reading them,

375
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,440
I'm saying okay, what category
can I put this in?

376
00:24:42,930 --> 00:24:47,010
And they fell neatly into 12
different categories and those

377
00:24:47,010 --> 00:24:48,770
are the 1st 12 chapters of the
book.

378
00:24:49,610 --> 00:24:56,290
So I introduced the ideas so
that and I I hope that I'm not

379
00:24:56,290 --> 00:24:58,250
putting a spin on on their
quotes.

380
00:24:58,250 --> 00:25:01,090
I don't think I am.
I I was trying to say, okay,

381
00:25:01,090 --> 00:25:05,410
What did they teach?
I I think it's mission

382
00:25:05,410 --> 00:25:07,610
accomplished as I as I read
through it like.

383
00:25:09,060 --> 00:25:11,700
I feel like I got a pretty good
nose for BS, right?

384
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:15,020
I can, I can kind of, I can kind
of get that that vibe really

385
00:25:15,020 --> 00:25:17,860
good.
My meter's highly tuned though

386
00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:20,620
as as I read, read some of your
stuff there.

387
00:25:21,860 --> 00:25:24,620
Like I said, that's what jumped
out to me is, is here's a guy

388
00:25:24,620 --> 00:25:27,940
who's just letting those old
brethren and and even some of

389
00:25:27,940 --> 00:25:30,180
the newer, newer leaders within
the LDS church.

390
00:25:30,180 --> 00:25:33,140
Yeah, there's a few in there.
Yeah, to to speak for themselves

391
00:25:33,140 --> 00:25:38,760
You weren't trying to.
Let them speak and then you try

392
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,840
to be an interpreter You just
said this is what they said this

393
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,960
is what this means.
And coming from a guy who's

394
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:51,720
who's you know big on what was
the original intent funny both

395
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:57,440
in my politics as well as my my
religion anyway as as you know

396
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,160
I'm I'm big on original intent
what was your and and and it was

397
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,880
a breath of fresh air to be able
to read something that.

398
00:26:06,370 --> 00:26:09,210
I felt really captured that
intent.

399
00:26:09,210 --> 00:26:11,770
So I think it's mission
accomplished on your end and and

400
00:26:11,770 --> 00:26:14,330
you really deserve to be
commended for that.

401
00:26:14,690 --> 00:26:17,410
What was your biggest surprise
in doing your research?

402
00:26:18,170 --> 00:26:20,010
There were several.
Holy cow.

403
00:26:20,810 --> 00:26:24,610
Well, the concept that that
building Zion to them was an

404
00:26:24,610 --> 00:26:26,810
economic activity, not a
spiritual one.

405
00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:28,890
Sure, there's a spiritual
element.

406
00:26:28,890 --> 00:26:32,570
Obviously you can't be rooted in
pride, fear and jealousy and

407
00:26:32,570 --> 00:26:34,690
still build Zion.
You've got to overcome the

408
00:26:34,690 --> 00:26:38,490
natural man.
But assuming, I mean, we've been

409
00:26:38,490 --> 00:26:42,730
doing this church thing for 200
years now, can we go ahead and

410
00:26:42,730 --> 00:26:51,290
say okay, we got this when we
move on now anyway, so let's

411
00:26:51,290 --> 00:26:52,690
see.
I'm sorry, what was your

412
00:26:52,730 --> 00:26:53,850
question?
No, no, you're good.

413
00:26:53,850 --> 00:26:56,410
What were some of your biggest
surprises, Biggest surprises,

414
00:26:56,410 --> 00:26:59,730
Yeah.
So yeah, that it was an economic

415
00:26:59,730 --> 00:27:05,410
activity, that cooperatives, so
cooperative, free enterprise was

416
00:27:05,410 --> 00:27:08,490
a stepping stone to Zion.
I didn't.

417
00:27:08,610 --> 00:27:10,810
I didn't know that.
I knew that the Saints had done

418
00:27:10,810 --> 00:27:15,370
cooperatives for about 10 years
and they had remarkable results,

419
00:27:15,450 --> 00:27:18,210
but I didn't know that they
taught this.

420
00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:23,050
We're doing this in order to
prepare ourselves for Zion.

421
00:27:24,290 --> 00:27:31,210
Also, I didn't know that they
said over and over again, we are

422
00:27:31,210 --> 00:27:37,650
building Zion here in Utah in
order to fulfill the prophecies

423
00:27:37,690 --> 00:27:42,530
of Jeremiah, Isaiah and Ezekiel.
I had no idea they saw it that

424
00:27:42,530 --> 00:27:47,170
way, which now makes sense.
When Utahans who've lived here

425
00:27:47,170 --> 00:27:51,850
forever referred occasionally to
Utah as Zion, that's because

426
00:27:51,850 --> 00:27:55,810
they were building it here.
That's where that nickname came

427
00:27:55,810 --> 00:27:58,490
from.
Quote after quote after quote.

428
00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:03,220
We are here to build Zion.
John Taylor said it over and

429
00:28:03,220 --> 00:28:07,740
over and over again. 80I I
believe he gave.

430
00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:11,380
I'd have to look up the numbers,
but I believe he gave 80 talks

431
00:28:11,940 --> 00:28:16,580
in something like 78 of them.
He either said we are building

432
00:28:16,580 --> 00:28:20,980
Zion like Enoch did or he quoted
Jeremiah 13.

433
00:28:20,980 --> 00:28:24,460
Whatever it is, I will take one
from a city and two from a

434
00:28:24,460 --> 00:28:27,500
family and we should build Zion
or he just mentioned Zion and

435
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:31,440
passing.
That's that's a huge focus.

436
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,120
And Brim Young talked about Zion
even more than John Taylor did.

437
00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:38,520
Of course he had longer to talk
about it.

438
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,240
So that was a big surprise.
Another huge surprise was they

439
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:48,000
taught that the point, the
entire point of us being given

440
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,880
the priesthood was to build
Zion.

441
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,760
And if you think about the
covenants in the LDS temple,

442
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:01,890
what's the last covenant what
what does it build up to of the

443
00:29:02,490 --> 00:29:05,090
of the covenants that we do in
the in the endowment?

444
00:29:05,130 --> 00:29:08,530
What's it build up to?
And and that became clear to me

445
00:29:08,530 --> 00:29:13,970
as I was reading all these
quotes was the and and and

446
00:29:13,970 --> 00:29:16,690
another thing there were there
were lots of things that really

447
00:29:16,690 --> 00:29:22,450
surprised me when I reading all
this was that it was a central

448
00:29:22,610 --> 00:29:25,410
tenet of the church.
You know President Campbell came

449
00:29:25,410 --> 00:29:28,170
up with the three fold mission
of the church.

450
00:29:28,170 --> 00:29:31,690
Preach the gospel, redeem the
dead, do missionary work.

451
00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:35,250
Perfect.
Thanks.

452
00:29:35,250 --> 00:29:38,490
Thank you.
That third one we don't have a

453
00:29:38,490 --> 00:29:45,770
program for which is too bad.
So in in reading all these

454
00:29:45,770 --> 00:29:50,090
quotes, no, no one came out like
President Kimball did and

455
00:29:50,130 --> 00:29:54,090
essentially branded the church
with with the threefold mission.

456
00:29:54,490 --> 00:29:58,410
But they would talk about maybe
five things.

457
00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:01,050
But building Zion was always in
there.

458
00:30:03,290 --> 00:30:09,090
So in in from what I gathered,
it was central to what they were

459
00:30:09,090 --> 00:30:12,450
doing it.
It was the gospel they they to

460
00:30:12,450 --> 00:30:18,810
them, it was preach the gospel,
gather the Saints, build Zion so

461
00:30:18,810 --> 00:30:20,930
that we can.
Receive Christ.

462
00:30:21,810 --> 00:30:23,490
That was the mission of the
Church.

463
00:30:23,970 --> 00:30:25,610
And really that gathering of the
Saints?

464
00:30:25,610 --> 00:30:28,040
Think that's?
That's a Zion thing, right?

465
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,040
I mean you can't build a society
without people, without people.

466
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:36,040
And and so that's that's really
just an extension of of of the

467
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,560
mission of Zion, right is is to
gather in Israel, gather in

468
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,040
those who who feel that call who
the Lord is prepared.

469
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:50,000
So let me ask you this.
How is it then that we go from

470
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,680
Zion?
Because, look, this isn't just

471
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,800
unique to LDS folks.
This this is also in

472
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,440
fundamentalism as well, a little
bit.

473
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:03,080
How is it we go from let's build
Zion at, you know, like every

474
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,480
talk is centered around that
this is what we're doing, this

475
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,600
is what we're about.
This is our mission statement.

476
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,680
We're here to build this
society.

477
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:15,000
How do we go from that to where
we are now?

478
00:31:15,460 --> 00:31:23,500
Where it is, it sometimes feels
like it's almost a compromise.

479
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:27,300
Like, like it's it's one of
those things we don't even put

480
00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:30,700
emphasis on much anymore, right?
Well, we'll see.

481
00:31:30,740 --> 00:31:33,220
Things like, let's just build
Zion where we're at.

482
00:31:34,940 --> 00:31:39,300
How did we get there?
There's a there's a quote and I

483
00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:42,700
was just sitting down before the
call and was reading the

484
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:47,280
introduction of my book and I
think it's in there.

485
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,080
But there was a quote where once
they stopped doing pursuing

486
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:59,720
building Zion.
Oh yeah, I think it was Leonard

487
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,040
Arrington.
So this book, I highly recommend

488
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,400
reading this book Great Basin
Kingdom by Leonard J Arrington.

489
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,840
When he first wrote it, it was
classified as anti Mormon

490
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,780
because the Church Historians
office only had the two options.

491
00:32:14,780 --> 00:32:17,100
It's either pro Mormon or it's
anti Mormon.

492
00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:19,980
But it's definitely not anti
Mormon.

493
00:32:21,940 --> 00:32:23,940
Anyway.
It's an economic history of the

494
00:32:23,940 --> 00:32:26,660
Latter Day Saints from 1830 to
1900.

495
00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:38,300
He makes it very clear that what
happened was Brigham got the

496
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:42,740
merchants together and said, OK,
we're having we're dividing into

497
00:32:42,740 --> 00:32:44,700
rich and poor.
We cannot do that.

498
00:32:45,420 --> 00:32:46,900
That's what destroyed the knee
fight.

499
00:32:46,900 --> 00:32:51,540
Zion we're trying to build Zion
we we can't have rich and poor.

500
00:32:52,020 --> 00:32:55,420
So I need you guys to get
together and figure out how we

501
00:32:55,420 --> 00:33:01,740
can not have this division.
And so he gave him that charge

502
00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:04,380
and let him loose.
And they would come back to him

503
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:08,100
and say, well, now what do you
want us to do anyway?

504
00:33:08,620 --> 00:33:13,500
So he and he had invited, and
this was the beginning of ZCMI

505
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:16,980
Zion's Cooperative Mercantile
Institute, which was patterned

506
00:33:16,980 --> 00:33:19,180
after what happened in Brigham
City.

507
00:33:22,020 --> 00:33:27,340
And so Brigham had invited the
nonmember merchants who were

508
00:33:27,340 --> 00:33:30,500
getting rich off the Saints, you
know, they would bring in.

509
00:33:31,540 --> 00:33:33,900
And the and the Mormon merchants
were doing this too.

510
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:38,470
They would bring in goods from
back east and charge 34500

511
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:40,710
percent markup.
And it's just draining the

512
00:33:40,710 --> 00:33:45,590
capital as well as creating this
rich and poor dichotomy among

513
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:49,430
the Saints.
And so So anyway, he invited

514
00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:54,550
those merchants to participate.
Well, and when they didn't, they

515
00:33:54,550 --> 00:33:58,630
just moved ahead without them.
And the Saints were purchasing

516
00:33:58,630 --> 00:34:03,070
their goods through ZCMI and not
through these merchants.

517
00:34:03,310 --> 00:34:05,510
So they were losing money hand
over fist.

518
00:34:06,250 --> 00:34:10,090
Well, what did they do?
Contacted the newspapers back

519
00:34:10,090 --> 00:34:13,650
east.
They contacted the politicians

520
00:34:13,650 --> 00:34:17,489
back east.
They contacted the the ministers

521
00:34:17,489 --> 00:34:22,090
back east and said these crazy
Mormons, Oh my gosh, look what

522
00:34:22,090 --> 00:34:24,370
they're doing, They're in
rebellion and blah, blah, blah,

523
00:34:24,370 --> 00:34:26,090
blah, blah and riled them all
up.

524
00:34:26,489 --> 00:34:31,449
And it was a combination between
those 3 entities that created

525
00:34:31,650 --> 00:34:36,480
essentially the Utah War and the
US government literally shut

526
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,560
down all the Zion building
mechanisms that they had put in

527
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:41,840
place.
And there were several.

528
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:50,120
So that's that's how it ended.
We basically, I mean, they they,

529
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,520
the government took the, the
government literally, conquered

530
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,680
the church, put us in bondage,
essentially forced us to

531
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,520
participate in Babylon's
economic system.

532
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:08,040
And here we are, which is
interesting because President

533
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:13,200
Nelson gave a talk before he
became the president of the

534
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:18,720
church. 13 times in his talk he
refers to the church as modern

535
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:22,120
Israel.
Well, I would argue that yes we

536
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:28,960
are modern Israel and we are in
bondage in modern Babylon and

537
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,830
we're and we're so used to it.
Elder Stone, he's was a member

538
00:35:35,830 --> 00:35:37,710
of the 70.
I think he's passed away.

539
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:41,350
I believe it was him that gave
the talk.

540
00:35:41,590 --> 00:35:43,510
He basically was talking about
Las Vegas.

541
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:47,910
He doesn't come out and say it,
but you could tell as a

542
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:52,110
representative of Babylon and he
and his entire talk is

543
00:35:52,110 --> 00:35:54,150
fantastic.
He says, you know, we have to

544
00:35:54,150 --> 00:36:00,520
build Zion and we're going to
have to separate ourselves from

545
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,920
Babylon to do that.
We can't, we can't live in this

546
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,800
cocoon.
He uses that term that Babylon

547
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,120
has created for us and build
Zion.

548
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:15,200
We we have to break out of that
cultural cocoon and and build

549
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,840
Zion on our own.
So that's yeah, that's how it

550
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,760
ended and it.
Is one of those things.

551
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:24,960
If you can't beat them, join
them.

552
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,040
Sort of a thing.
That's what we did.

553
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,410
Yeah.
That's fascinating.

554
00:36:29,410 --> 00:36:33,450
Now let me ask you this.
And then we're going to dive in

555
00:36:33,450 --> 00:36:37,610
a little bit more deeper on
maybe some principles around

556
00:36:37,610 --> 00:36:40,490
Zion itself and then I want to
focus maybe on the the

557
00:36:40,490 --> 00:36:43,130
communities that that you're
participating in.

558
00:36:44,530 --> 00:36:48,370
But one of the things that I
have seen lately, because as a

559
00:36:48,370 --> 00:36:51,490
Mormon podcaster, I'll be at a
fundamentalist one, but a Mormon

560
00:36:51,490 --> 00:36:54,930
podcaster nonetheless.
I kind of like to keep my thumb

561
00:36:54,930 --> 00:36:57,490
on the pulse of all things
Mormon, right?

562
00:36:58,390 --> 00:37:01,470
And some of the stuff that I've
seen over the last few years

563
00:37:01,470 --> 00:37:07,270
that has really given me
significant pause is some of the

564
00:37:07,270 --> 00:37:12,950
kids coming out of BYU today
seem to have this notion that

565
00:37:13,830 --> 00:37:17,790
United Order in Zion was nothing
more than communism with a

566
00:37:17,790 --> 00:37:21,830
theological bent.
And to me, that that scares me

567
00:37:21,830 --> 00:37:24,350
to death.
Because look, I'll be honest

568
00:37:24,350 --> 00:37:27,440
with you.
Communism on its own is a horror

569
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:33,040
show enough, but if you mix
communism with some sort of

570
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:38,120
weird theology then you can now
do some things that that, I'll

571
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,760
be quite honest with you.
Lenin could only fantasize about

572
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,360
and Marx could only fantasize
about.

573
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,400
Can you show that the
distinctions between Zion and

574
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,640
and the United Order and
communism?

575
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:56,710
Yeah, compulsion.
Right.

576
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:59,870
One word.
Compulsion.

577
00:38:01,310 --> 00:38:02,710
You know.
God, obviously.

578
00:38:03,150 --> 00:38:06,230
Highly.
Freedom of choice.

579
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:13,470
And communism in practice has
always been authoritarian

580
00:38:13,710 --> 00:38:22,830
dictatorship, you know, and and
the the idealistic ideologues

581
00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:25,950
say, well, we haven't tried true
communism yet.

582
00:38:25,950 --> 00:38:30,870
Well, you know, whatever, every
single time it's been applied,

583
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:37,830
it's been a disaster for humans.
So the the United order is you.

584
00:38:40,070 --> 00:38:42,390
One of the things that I
gathered from doing this

585
00:38:42,390 --> 00:38:44,630
research, I'm kind of going
around the barn to answer your

586
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:47,790
question and and I'll probably
forget your question by the time

587
00:38:47,790 --> 00:38:52,290
I get around the barn.
Shoot.

588
00:38:52,730 --> 00:39:01,250
See, I've already free on that.
We were talking about

589
00:39:01,250 --> 00:39:07,810
compulsion, yes.
So what?

590
00:39:07,810 --> 00:39:09,850
What?
Let me tell you what what I saw

591
00:39:09,850 --> 00:39:13,610
different and then maybe you
could add to it because I I kind

592
00:39:13,610 --> 00:39:15,850
of went through a phase where I
did a deep dive on this.

593
00:39:17,380 --> 00:39:19,220
And I went to the scriptures.
I went to the doctor and

594
00:39:19,220 --> 00:39:20,900
covenants.
I can't remember for wife and me

595
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:23,660
what section it was.
You could probably quote it for

596
00:39:23,660 --> 00:39:29,820
me but the the what I was
noticing was is that property

597
00:39:29,820 --> 00:39:31,860
was still respected there.
Right.

598
00:39:32,220 --> 00:39:36,020
And so as as I looked at the DNC
and then I read a few accounts,

599
00:39:36,380 --> 00:39:40,060
what what it sounds like is like
you desire to enter the order

600
00:39:41,100 --> 00:39:44,860
you went in and you spoke with
the Bishop before anything ever

601
00:39:44,860 --> 00:39:46,500
happened.
You said you know this is.

602
00:39:47,250 --> 00:39:49,650
I want to enter.
This is what I have to

603
00:39:49,650 --> 00:39:51,810
consecrate.
And then you and the Bishop

604
00:39:51,810 --> 00:39:55,050
would have this conversation
where he's like, okay, How much

605
00:39:55,050 --> 00:39:57,450
do you need?
How much does you know?

606
00:39:57,450 --> 00:40:00,170
Let's talk about your family
needs, these sorts of things.

607
00:40:00,850 --> 00:40:04,490
You consecrated your stuff, and
then you actually received a

608
00:40:04,490 --> 00:40:10,930
deed for a plot of land.
And then going forward, you

609
00:40:10,930 --> 00:40:15,150
could add upon that.
And the the only stipulation was

610
00:40:15,150 --> 00:40:18,350
is that then you donated the
surplus, you consecrated the

611
00:40:18,350 --> 00:40:23,870
surplus to the Bishop storehouse
and then that that allowed

612
00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:26,670
allowed you to to continue to
go.

613
00:40:26,950 --> 00:40:30,750
And if you ever desire to leave,
you got to leave with that deed

614
00:40:30,750 --> 00:40:33,870
or sell the property or and keep
the proceeds or whatever.

615
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:38,830
So when when I hear kids say
things like, you know, it's just

616
00:40:38,830 --> 00:40:42,830
communism with with, you know,
righteous communism if you will,

617
00:40:43,430 --> 00:40:46,510
I'm like, ooh, that that Spooks
me a little bit.

618
00:40:46,510 --> 00:40:48,550
I get a little freaked out.
Let's let's not go there,

619
00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:50,510
kiddos.
This is a can of worms.

620
00:40:50,510 --> 00:40:55,110
You don't want to open property
rights were still respected.

621
00:40:56,030 --> 00:40:59,510
Free agency was still respected.
Did I miss anything anywhere

622
00:40:59,510 --> 00:41:02,910
there?
Well, there there's also the

623
00:41:02,910 --> 00:41:06,010
little element of.
It wasn't just land you got

624
00:41:06,010 --> 00:41:07,570
back.
The land you got back was to

625
00:41:07,570 --> 00:41:10,570
grow your own food.
But what you also got back was

626
00:41:10,570 --> 00:41:13,330
the tools of your trade.
I mean, if you were a Carpenter,

627
00:41:13,930 --> 00:41:17,210
you know, he wouldn't give your
Carpenter tools to some other

628
00:41:17,210 --> 00:41:19,730
guy who doesn't know how to use
them, give them back to you,

629
00:41:19,890 --> 00:41:24,530
right.
So and and the beauty of that

630
00:41:24,530 --> 00:41:28,610
system is that your motivation
is supposed to be out of love.

631
00:41:29,010 --> 00:41:34,010
So as a as a as a furniture
maker.

632
00:41:34,770 --> 00:41:38,970
It would bring me huge joy to
make your daughter as a wedding

633
00:41:38,970 --> 00:41:41,290
gift.
A beautiful chest of drawers.

634
00:41:41,850 --> 00:41:45,690
And I would make it beautiful.
It would be a masterpiece.

635
00:41:46,210 --> 00:41:49,130
Can you buy a masterpiece in our
market today?

636
00:41:50,130 --> 00:41:51,490
Chest of drawers, master?
No.

637
00:41:51,490 --> 00:41:53,890
It falls apart.
You pull the drawer out and the

638
00:41:53,890 --> 00:41:56,330
whole thing collapses.
Piece of trash.

639
00:41:56,650 --> 00:42:02,370
So in my view, when we're
motivated out of love for our

640
00:42:02,370 --> 00:42:06,090
fellow man in our community.
We're we're going to do the best

641
00:42:06,090 --> 00:42:10,770
we can for them in blessing
their lives with our talents.

642
00:42:11,290 --> 00:42:15,850
To me, that's Zion.
Yeah.

643
00:42:15,850 --> 00:42:20,490
A society based on love of God
and love of your fellow man. 2

644
00:42:20,490 --> 00:42:24,170
Great Commandments.
And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to

645
00:42:24,970 --> 00:42:25,810
cut you off.
Go ahead.

646
00:42:26,250 --> 00:42:30,170
Well, I did want to go back to.
I finally remembered what it was

647
00:42:30,170 --> 00:42:33,770
that I was going to say.
You asked about the.

648
00:42:34,190 --> 00:42:37,710
Communism united order.
One of the things I gathered out

649
00:42:37,710 --> 00:42:41,830
of the out of doing all this
research for this book was that

650
00:42:44,590 --> 00:42:47,830
communism talks about the
redistribution of wealth.

651
00:42:47,990 --> 00:42:49,990
Socialism and communism talk
about that.

652
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:54,350
Okay, that's not what Brigham
and his apostles were about.

653
00:42:54,910 --> 00:42:58,950
They were about the redirection
of wealth's power.

654
00:43:00,670 --> 00:43:03,990
Not redistribution, not dividing
everybody's goods up.

655
00:43:04,350 --> 00:43:07,070
Every morning I've ever talked
to who brings up the law of

656
00:43:07,070 --> 00:43:09,510
consecration says, Oh yeah,
we're going to put you in all

657
00:43:09,510 --> 00:43:12,430
our stuff and divide it up.
No, that's not what the law of

658
00:43:12,430 --> 00:43:19,830
consecration is, Sorry.
What Brian Taylor both did was

659
00:43:19,830 --> 00:43:24,310
they took the businessman who
had very good skills at

660
00:43:25,070 --> 00:43:29,150
generating wealth and said okay
instead of doing what?

661
00:43:30,170 --> 00:43:32,290
What's his name?
That really rich guy right now

662
00:43:32,290 --> 00:43:34,970
who owns half of America?
What's his name?

663
00:43:34,970 --> 00:43:37,890
Bill Gates.
The other guy, Jeff Bezos.

664
00:43:38,370 --> 00:43:42,770
Yeah, those guys instead of them
just, I'm thinking as a real old

665
00:43:42,770 --> 00:43:44,850
guy with the white hair.
Warren Buffett.

666
00:43:45,210 --> 00:43:48,330
Yeah, him.
So Warren Buffett is probably

667
00:43:48,330 --> 00:43:51,290
got a heart of gold, but he
loves what he does.

668
00:43:51,450 --> 00:43:53,090
He loves doing it.
He loves.

669
00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:56,390
The process, that's where he
gets his jollies right.

670
00:43:56,670 --> 00:43:59,550
What Brigham and John Taylor
would have gone is gone to

671
00:43:59,550 --> 00:44:02,190
Warren Buffett and say, hey
Warren, you're amazing, you've

672
00:44:02,190 --> 00:44:06,430
done all this wonderful stuff.
Can we get you to help all these

673
00:44:06,430 --> 00:44:11,990
poor people do the same thing as
you're doing, redirecting the

674
00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:15,830
wealth's power to benefit the
entire community?

675
00:44:16,510 --> 00:44:19,230
Warren Buffett doesn't need
another billion dollars.

676
00:44:19,550 --> 00:44:22,830
He he's just doing it because
it's fun for him, right?

677
00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:30,780
So he needs some religious
leader to motivate him to

678
00:44:30,780 --> 00:44:33,980
voluntarily help his neighbors,
right?

679
00:44:34,620 --> 00:44:37,820
Well and and I think I think
this ties into something else

680
00:44:37,820 --> 00:44:41,220
that I've I've that's always
bugged me when when a lot of

681
00:44:41,220 --> 00:44:45,700
folks would talk about Zion, it
was always about taking

682
00:44:46,460 --> 00:44:50,270
everybody down a notch, right?
No.

683
00:44:50,630 --> 00:44:53,750
And sometimes they'll talk about
it and it's not even a notch.

684
00:44:54,070 --> 00:44:56,390
They want to knock people down
completely.

685
00:44:58,150 --> 00:45:01,310
In my estimation, as I read
things they weren't looking at

686
00:45:01,310 --> 00:45:03,110
knocking people down a whole
bunch.

687
00:45:03,110 --> 00:45:05,990
They were looking at bringing
people up, right.

688
00:45:06,350 --> 00:45:12,510
And this this idea that that.
Well, let me put it this way.

689
00:45:12,830 --> 00:45:17,110
We tend to look at wealth and
the the game out there that that

690
00:45:17,110 --> 00:45:21,960
Babylonian system as a pie, and
there's only so many ways that

691
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,080
pie can be divided, right?
Scarcity mentality?

692
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,040
Exactly.
I think what what the United

693
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,520
ordered law of consecration Zion
was all about was No, no, no.

694
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,120
That stuff is endless.
We can, we can make this work,

695
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,160
you know, we can grow
exponentially and and and there

696
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,080
doesn't have to be a scarcity.
So if he's talking about

697
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,480
bringing people up, there's not
a scarcity mentality involved in

698
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,280
it, right.
It's there's plenty here.

699
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:48,920
It's it's not a matter of
plenty.

700
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,640
It's just a matter of do we want
to do this?

701
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,440
Bad enough to to make it happen?
Is that a misconception on my

702
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:56,360
part?
No.

703
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:02,160
Well, I share that opinion.
Okay, okay, yeah.

704
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,430
And you're look, I always say I
get people on here way smarter

705
00:46:06,430 --> 00:46:10,110
than me, so I'm going to default
to you on a lot of this so, so

706
00:46:10,470 --> 00:46:14,430
and it's not hard to do.
So that gives me a wide range of

707
00:46:14,430 --> 00:46:17,630
options for guests.
But you're.

708
00:46:19,030 --> 00:46:20,790
Yeah.
So, So yeah, I'm going to

709
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:22,910
default to you on that because
this has been your area of

710
00:46:22,910 --> 00:46:25,590
expertise, right.
Well, I've read a lot.

711
00:46:26,980 --> 00:46:28,900
So let let me ask you this
because I think this is

712
00:46:28,900 --> 00:46:31,940
important too, because like I
said, we're we're right now in,

713
00:46:31,940 --> 00:46:35,940
in this place of just build Zion
within your home homes, right,

714
00:46:36,140 --> 00:46:39,060
Maybe in your wards and if
you're really lucky, even your

715
00:46:39,060 --> 00:46:40,100
steak.
Right.

716
00:46:40,100 --> 00:46:43,020
We have no clue what that means,
but we have no clue what that

717
00:46:43,020 --> 00:46:44,780
means.
So how do we?

718
00:46:46,780 --> 00:46:49,940
And again, as a convert, I was
fired up about this stuff, man.

719
00:46:49,940 --> 00:46:54,820
I was like, here we go.
How do we, how do we motivate

720
00:46:56,650 --> 00:47:01,570
members, no matter you know what
branch of Mormonism they are in

721
00:47:01,570 --> 00:47:05,410
this process, right?
How do we get people fired up to

722
00:47:05,410 --> 00:47:08,810
want to put their hands to it
and and dig into this?

723
00:47:09,450 --> 00:47:14,290
Well, I know it feels like I'm
just trying to plug my book, but

724
00:47:14,290 --> 00:47:16,730
every time I sit down with this
book, I wrote this like four or

725
00:47:16,730 --> 00:47:19,170
five years ago.
And every once in a while I'll

726
00:47:19,170 --> 00:47:23,850
just sit down and start reading
it and I go, holy crap, we are

727
00:47:23,850 --> 00:47:27,500
missing the boat.
I just read these quotes and

728
00:47:27,500 --> 00:47:31,700
they were bound and determined
to build an Enoch style Zion

729
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:35,020
society here in Utah that that
it was.

730
00:47:35,020 --> 00:47:39,420
It's so obvious when you read
their words that and and I just

731
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:42,260
so to answer your question, read
their.

732
00:47:42,380 --> 00:47:44,460
Read what they wrote.
You don't have to buy my book.

733
00:47:44,460 --> 00:47:50,260
Go to my blog site, Building
zion.org and half of the quotes

734
00:47:50,260 --> 00:47:52,620
are on there.
Just read them there for free.

735
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,080
Hey, hang tight a second.
You want to read the book,

736
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:01,000
everybody?
Should read the book.

737
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,760
Whatever.
So no, no, no.

738
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,960
I I I agree with you in some
sense.

739
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:12,120
I feel like sometimes, you know,
as Mormons, we've lost the

740
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:13,720
vision, right?
We.

741
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,880
We have.
We've lost the vision.

742
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:22,700
We're we're content now with.
Babylon with Babylon, right.

743
00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:26,580
And and and we think that you
know maybe some of the search

744
00:48:26,780 --> 00:48:32,220
church service we offer or you
know archiving is enough, but

745
00:48:32,220 --> 00:48:34,780
it's really not.
I mean it that's that's just

746
00:48:34,780 --> 00:48:39,020
scratching the surface, right.
For if you want to build Zion,

747
00:48:39,020 --> 00:48:43,380
you you've got to want something
a little more.

748
00:48:44,260 --> 00:48:49,480
Yeah, I think so.
And and I think so as as people,

749
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,440
we're always looking down the
road for answers, right.

750
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:56,320
The answers are in front of us.
Well, sometimes they're behind

751
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,280
us, right.
Sometimes we got to turn around,

752
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,840
we got to read and we got to do
a little bit of study.

753
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,720
As a surveyor, I've always said
you have an initial point of

754
00:49:05,720 --> 00:49:10,080
beginning and let's say you're
off a half a degree in two feet,

755
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,560
you'll never see it.
But if you're off half a degree

756
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:17,660
over a mile, well, that's
compounding terror.

757
00:49:18,340 --> 00:49:21,380
And and sometimes I feel like
we, we had our good starting

758
00:49:21,380 --> 00:49:26,100
point and we started down and
maybe we got off, you know, 30

759
00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:30,260
feet away by 1/4 degree.
Now we're off a half.

760
00:49:30,780 --> 00:49:37,060
Now all of a sudden we're way
off And and sometimes it takes

761
00:49:37,060 --> 00:49:40,020
looking back to see that course
correction, which I think is the

762
00:49:40,020 --> 00:49:43,820
genius of your book because it
it's just not your opinion.

763
00:49:43,820 --> 00:49:47,040
You're going back to the old
guard saying, okay, what did

764
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,880
they have to say about this?
Yeah.

765
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:52,840
Yeah.
And I and I don't, I don't,

766
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,560
seriously, I don't fault the
leadership of the church.

767
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,640
You know, God hasn't told me to
fix it.

768
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,160
So I'm not going to, I'm not
even going to try.

769
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:09,760
Not my job.
I was just hoping, hey, let's

770
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,200
review the past.
Let's review what they taught

771
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:19,500
and maybe think about I I.
Honestly, I thought maybe 20

772
00:50:19,500 --> 00:50:24,260
years, 30 years, 40 years after
I die, this will be taken

773
00:50:24,260 --> 00:50:29,900
seriously among the Saints.
My hope was I I'm going to do

774
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:36,100
this life work and hopefully
it'll do some good in the

775
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:38,220
future.
That that was my hope.

776
00:50:40,660 --> 00:50:44,090
Yeah, we'll see.
Well, I I think you've done a

777
00:50:44,090 --> 00:50:46,610
great work there in that book.
I think it's super helpful.

778
00:50:47,330 --> 00:50:51,090
So let me ask you this.
We've kind of defined Zion a

779
00:50:51,090 --> 00:50:54,770
little bit what what was it that
made you?

780
00:50:54,770 --> 00:50:57,410
And and I'm always curious about
this because because I have a

781
00:50:57,410 --> 00:51:01,530
story similar with this podcast.
What was it that that motivated

782
00:51:01,530 --> 00:51:05,290
you to write a book, right.
Because a lot of us have have

783
00:51:05,290 --> 00:51:09,090
those things we love to study
about, but we never take the

784
00:51:09,090 --> 00:51:12,930
initiative to go and actually
write a book about it.

785
00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:16,290
What was what was your
inspiration for writing that

786
00:51:16,290 --> 00:51:16,730
book?
What?

787
00:51:16,730 --> 00:51:18,610
What?
What motivated you to do that

788
00:51:19,690 --> 00:51:22,650
well?
YouTube I I actually.

789
00:51:22,770 --> 00:51:27,730
So as I was gathering these
quotes started falling neatly

790
00:51:27,730 --> 00:51:31,610
into 12 categories.
You know, I I used to teach

791
00:51:32,090 --> 00:51:35,450
years ago taught classes on how
to use Excel spreadsheets.

792
00:51:35,810 --> 00:51:39,930
So I naturally am using Excel, a
new tab for every category,

793
00:51:39,930 --> 00:51:42,910
right?
And then I sub categorized them

794
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:50,110
within that tab and so I had
this huge spreadsheet with all

795
00:51:50,110 --> 00:51:56,470
these quotes color-coded, the
whole deal and and then I just

796
00:51:56,470 --> 00:52:01,150
by chance saw a video on YouTube
how to write a book in an hour

797
00:52:02,750 --> 00:52:07,270
or something like that 10 easy
steps or whatever it was and and

798
00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:12,010
the guy said.
What?

799
00:52:12,770 --> 00:52:15,530
What are the main points you
want people to go away with?

800
00:52:15,530 --> 00:52:18,210
Well, I said, well, I've already
got the 12 categories.

801
00:52:18,410 --> 00:52:21,210
There they are.
There's the 1st, 12 chapters.

802
00:52:21,930 --> 00:52:26,770
And so I thought, gosh, I I
really could ride a boat.

803
00:52:26,770 --> 00:52:30,650
So it was just just the
suggestion by some guy on

804
00:52:30,650 --> 00:52:34,010
YouTube that I happen to run
across this video and I thought,

805
00:52:34,970 --> 00:52:36,770
I'll do that.
So I did.

806
00:52:37,610 --> 00:52:39,490
You're way more obedient than I
am, I thought.

807
00:52:40,010 --> 00:52:44,330
I thought, doing this podcast
for a good a good solid.

808
00:52:47,250 --> 00:52:50,650
In all honesty, it was probably
only three or four days, but it

809
00:52:50,650 --> 00:52:52,770
felt like forever as I argued
with the Lord.

810
00:52:52,770 --> 00:52:55,490
I'm like, you got the wrong guy.
You need to go find somebody

811
00:52:55,490 --> 00:52:57,870
else.
And I I remember coming home

812
00:52:57,870 --> 00:52:59,590
with the microphone in the
laptop.

813
00:52:59,590 --> 00:53:01,150
And my wife's like, what's that
for?

814
00:53:01,150 --> 00:53:02,670
And I'm like, oh, let me tell
you.

815
00:53:02,670 --> 00:53:04,790
And she's like.
You're nuts.

816
00:53:05,150 --> 00:53:06,030
You.
Well, she.

817
00:53:06,190 --> 00:53:09,430
This was her exact quote, Jesse.
She just looked at me sweetly,

818
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:12,510
as she always does, and she
goes, well, you've had Dumber

819
00:53:12,510 --> 00:53:14,470
ideas and then just left it at
that.

820
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:16,110
So, I mean that's that's kind
of.

821
00:53:17,110 --> 00:53:19,270
Yeah, exactly.
That's how I got it.

822
00:53:19,710 --> 00:53:22,430
Did this.
But this episode of the podcast

823
00:53:22,430 --> 00:53:24,670
is brought to you by Deseret
flag.com.

824
00:53:25,150 --> 00:53:26,950
I've said this before and I
really mean it.

825
00:53:26,950 --> 00:53:29,590
Mormonism isn't just a religion,
it's a culture.

826
00:53:29,870 --> 00:53:32,670
As such, it has its own
vernacular and practices, but

827
00:53:32,670 --> 00:53:35,430
also its own symbols.
And those symbols become even

828
00:53:35,430 --> 00:53:37,670
more important and prominent
when you look back into our

829
00:53:37,670 --> 00:53:39,510
history.
Perhaps one of the most

830
00:53:39,510 --> 00:53:42,430
recognizable symbols of
Mormonism is the Deseret flag.

831
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:46,030
This is the flag that I use as
cover art in this podcast.

832
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:49,430
This was also used for a good
chunk of time during the Pioneer

833
00:53:49,430 --> 00:53:52,140
era in Utah.
Now today we have people who

834
00:53:52,140 --> 00:53:55,140
want to replace the existing
Utah flag with some other

835
00:53:55,140 --> 00:53:58,180
progressive monstrosity.
Well, I think it's damn past

836
00:53:58,180 --> 00:54:00,900
time that we start pushing back
here a little bit in Utah.

837
00:54:01,220 --> 00:54:03,900
Our friends at Defending Utah
are here to help you with that.

838
00:54:04,140 --> 00:54:06,340
Now.
If you go to deseretflag.com,

839
00:54:06,500 --> 00:54:09,060
you can now purchase your own
Deseret State flag.

840
00:54:09,460 --> 00:54:12,660
It's time here that we start
making ourselves known and join

841
00:54:12,660 --> 00:54:15,460
the resistance against those who
seek to rewrite our state's

842
00:54:15,460 --> 00:54:19,030
history.
Go to deseretflag.com or check

843
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:22,630
out the link in this episode's
page, Show Notes and get yours

844
00:54:22,630 --> 00:54:24,630
today.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

845
00:54:24,630 --> 00:54:27,510
Renegade Podcast?
Well, good news, we're on

846
00:54:27,510 --> 00:54:29,910
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

847
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:32,110
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The first one, the Slightly

848
00:54:32,110 --> 00:54:35,350
Rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

849
00:54:35,350 --> 00:54:37,310
those pesky commercials getting
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850
00:54:37,790 --> 00:54:40,710
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851
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:44,770
the Stirring It Up package where
you can hear adfree audio, add

852
00:54:44,770 --> 00:54:48,210
free video and transcripts.
Finally, for those who want to

853
00:54:48,210 --> 00:54:51,570
go full Renegade, that package
is available to where you can

854
00:54:51,570 --> 00:54:55,330
get everything in the previous
two packages, plus an extra show

855
00:54:55,330 --> 00:54:58,650
where myself and Ben Winfield
break down the news of the day

856
00:54:58,650 --> 00:55:00,450
from a very Mormon point of
view.

857
00:55:00,810 --> 00:55:04,850
You will also get exclusive
access to Renegade chat, and on

858
00:55:04,850 --> 00:55:07,090
there you'll be able to talk to
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859
00:55:07,090 --> 00:55:08,770
whatever topics are on your
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860
00:55:09,170 --> 00:55:12,450
Go to Patreon today and get your
exclusive content.

861
00:55:13,140 --> 00:55:15,700
All right.
So at at what point in your life

862
00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:19,180
did you, did you find out about
this cooperative, this land

863
00:55:19,180 --> 00:55:23,940
cooperative?
Yeah, I I because because I had

864
00:55:23,940 --> 00:55:27,420
written the book and I thought,
OK, well, you know, instead of

865
00:55:27,420 --> 00:55:30,980
complaining about the fact that
the Saints are embracing this,

866
00:55:31,420 --> 00:55:35,860
why don't I go as on an
informal, uncalled mission?

867
00:55:35,860 --> 00:55:39,740
Why don't I share these ideas
and try to say, hey, you know,

868
00:55:39,740 --> 00:55:42,140
we could be doing this instead
of sitting around?

869
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:46,880
In Bevlon.
And so I built a website,

870
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,280
zionbuilders.org.
It's still up.

871
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,360
I'm taking it down.
I should probably go back and

872
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,160
look at it.
And then created a Facebook

873
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:02,320
group and started inviting, you
know, people who talked about

874
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:06,360
Zion and said, hey, let's, let's
look at this, maybe.

875
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,640
Oh, in fact, it was my research
on Brigham City.

876
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:14,090
So.
When I was reading about Brigham

877
00:56:14,090 --> 00:56:16,650
City, maybe I should talk about
this a little.

878
00:56:16,810 --> 00:56:22,450
Yeah, Brigham City was amazing.
Brigham Young asked John Wilfred

879
00:56:22,450 --> 00:56:26,730
Woodruff No, Lorenzo Snow,
Brigham Young as Lorenzo Snow to

880
00:56:26,730 --> 00:56:32,130
take some bunch of Scandinavian
immigrants to a little tiny town

881
00:56:32,130 --> 00:56:36,210
called Box Elder.
It's a little what do we say

882
00:56:36,210 --> 00:56:40,050
that in the English Dorf, in
German, a little tiny town.

883
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,400
And build a self-sustaining
community.

884
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:48,200
That was his challenge.
And so they renamed the town

885
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:52,760
Brigham City.
And it took it took Wilford

886
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:57,280
learns of snow a while to figure
out how to start it, and and

887
00:56:57,280 --> 00:56:59,840
this leads into how I got
involved with the coop system.

888
00:57:03,500 --> 00:57:04,980
The first thing you did was
build a.

889
00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:06,300
It took a while to figure it
out.

890
00:57:06,300 --> 00:57:09,260
And I think, I'm, I'm pretty
sure George Cucanan was the

891
00:57:09,260 --> 00:57:11,500
brains behind the whole
cooperative movement.

892
00:57:12,100 --> 00:57:15,620
I'm fairly confident he was.
I can't prove it, but I'm fairly

893
00:57:15,620 --> 00:57:20,500
confident.
I I'm guessing Lorenzo Snow got

894
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:23,620
the idea from George Cucanan to
start a coop store.

895
00:57:24,020 --> 00:57:26,500
And So what he did was
difference between the basic

896
00:57:26,500 --> 00:57:29,140
core fundamental difference
between a coop and a regular

897
00:57:29,140 --> 00:57:32,180
corporation is that the
shareholders are local.

898
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,000
They either work there or they
shop there.

899
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,120
Those are the people who own it.
So you don't have some distant

900
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,440
shareholder who couldn't care
less about your customers,

901
00:57:42,440 --> 00:57:45,480
couldn't care less about your
product, couldn't care less

902
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,800
about your environment as long
as he's getting profit off his

903
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,000
shares, right.
And in a coop, it's the local

904
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,560
people, the the profits stay in
the community.

905
00:57:55,240 --> 00:57:57,480
So.
So he went around and invited

906
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,120
everybody.
Please, please please buy one

907
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:04,540
share in the coop.
And so you can benefit from the

908
00:58:04,540 --> 00:58:07,940
profits of this operation.
So then he also would invite

909
00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:11,260
anyone who produced anything to
sell their goods through the

910
00:58:11,260 --> 00:58:13,780
coop store.
And this is how they were

911
00:58:13,780 --> 00:58:17,940
combating all these merchants
bringing in these products and

912
00:58:17,940 --> 00:58:20,220
charging 3-4 hundred 500%
markup.

913
00:58:22,300 --> 00:58:25,900
And so he started that in
around, I don't remember the

914
00:58:25,900 --> 00:58:31,680
exact year 1860 something.
And then he went on vacation to

915
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,160
Hawaii, actually, I think it was
a mission.

916
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,840
And when he got back there was
$10,000 in the savings account.

917
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:44,200
So after doing distributions to
all the shareholders, they also

918
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:48,200
put money in a savings account.
So with that $10,000 he built,

919
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,320
he had built a tannery.
So they took all the surplus

920
00:58:52,320 --> 00:58:56,520
hides from the local ranchers
and made belts and buckle, or

921
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:02,440
belts and hats and.
Saddles and whatever else you

922
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,240
make out of leather and sold
those goods through the coop

923
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:09,840
store, took the profits from
that and built a cotton factory

924
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:11,400
I think or something I can't
remember.

925
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,000
And they just kept doing that
over and over and over again

926
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,960
until they had 40 different
industries in their little town.

927
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:23,000
They estimated that they had
achieved in in just 10 years

928
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:25,760
they had achieved 85%
self-sufficiency.

929
00:59:27,270 --> 00:59:31,870
And everyone in town worked for
who had a job, you know, wasn't

930
00:59:31,870 --> 00:59:35,350
selfemployed, worked for one of
these 40 departments they called

931
00:59:35,350 --> 00:59:38,630
him.
So this, this was what really

932
00:59:38,630 --> 00:59:42,390
got my attention.
And this and that is as I'm

933
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:46,630
reading this in Great Basin
Kingdom about what he did.

934
00:59:48,350 --> 00:59:52,710
I had at the time, neighbors who
I cared about losing their homes

935
00:59:52,710 --> 00:59:56,510
due to unemployment.
In their 10th year, Brigham

936
00:59:56,510 --> 01:00:01,910
City, in the middle of a
worldwide recession, had zero

937
01:00:01,910 --> 01:00:04,630
percent unemployment.
Zero.

938
01:00:05,070 --> 01:00:10,950
Everybody had a job and nobody
was lifting their homes during

939
01:00:11,070 --> 01:00:15,030
their worldwide recession.
And I thought we should build

940
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:18,260
towns like this.
And that's when I set up that

941
01:00:18,260 --> 01:00:20,540
Facebook page.
That's when I set up that

942
01:00:20,900 --> 01:00:24,220
website and was trying to say,
hey, let's do this, This is an

943
01:00:24,220 --> 01:00:28,060
economic miracle.
We we can do this.

944
01:00:28,540 --> 01:00:31,220
My plan was to do it virtually
first.

945
01:00:31,300 --> 01:00:34,740
So to build an online store,
invite people to sell their

946
01:00:34,740 --> 01:00:39,340
goods through it.
And my doctor ended up reading

947
01:00:39,340 --> 01:00:42,340
my book.
I asked him, can I go to can I

948
01:00:42,340 --> 01:00:45,260
put a copy of my book in your in
your waiting?

949
01:00:46,580 --> 01:00:47,860
Well he took it home and read
it.

950
01:00:48,260 --> 01:00:50,660
He says you really ought to talk
to Phillip Gleason with

951
01:00:50,820 --> 01:00:54,780
Operation self-reliance.
And so I he gave me Phillips

952
01:00:54,780 --> 01:00:57,180
phone number.
I called him up and said, I hear

953
01:00:57,180 --> 01:01:00,100
you're building cooperative
communities and he goes, yeah,

954
01:01:00,620 --> 01:01:07,700
come watch my presentation.
So wife and my sister and we

955
01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:11,980
watched his Lane PowerPoint
presentation, which I've since

956
01:01:11,980 --> 01:01:16,810
made into a video and I thought
he's going to end up in the same

957
01:01:16,810 --> 01:01:19,210
place.
I want to end up in the

958
01:01:19,210 --> 01:01:21,690
cooperative community where the
profits are kept local,

959
01:01:21,810 --> 01:01:25,250
self-sufficient.
Everybody's producing all their

960
01:01:25,250 --> 01:01:28,290
own food, water and power in one
place.

961
01:01:29,930 --> 01:01:34,770
And so I joined and this was
before we had any property.

962
01:01:35,410 --> 01:01:38,690
At the time when I joined, they
had just given up on some land

963
01:01:38,690 --> 01:01:43,400
in Arizona because the the
seller, the family wouldn't

964
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,680
negotiate on the price and it
was just way too high.

965
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:52,200
And then and then they started
looking in San Pete County and

966
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,160
you can get enough land in San
Pete County, but you cannot get

967
01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:56,800
enough water rights to build a
town.

968
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:02,040
It's just not possible.
So then a guy, one of the six

969
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:08,420
original shareholders, found
Riverbed Ranch and said, hey,

970
01:02:08,420 --> 01:02:11,060
you guys ought to come look at
this, this is, this might work

971
01:02:11,060 --> 01:02:13,980
really good for us.
It's a cute little valley in

972
01:02:13,980 --> 01:02:16,100
between these two mountains,
beautiful mountains.

973
01:02:17,100 --> 01:02:19,740
And we were trying to find it on
Google Earth and it was like,

974
01:02:19,740 --> 01:02:21,300
where is it?
Where is it?

975
01:02:21,620 --> 01:02:25,260
We finally found it.
It was like, wow, it's way out

976
01:02:25,260 --> 01:02:30,180
in the middle of nowhere.
And and then all this insanity

977
01:02:30,180 --> 01:02:32,900
with COVID happened and now
we're wondering if it's far

978
01:02:32,900 --> 01:02:38,400
enough out.
Anyway, so that was.

979
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,360
Sound like my kind of people
right there.

980
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:45,960
You know, it's kind of funny
because we do tours occasionally

981
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,080
on Saturdays.
We used to do them almost every

982
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:52,800
Saturday, and now with the
second community down in

983
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:57,360
Arizona, we don't.
But during the height of COVID,

984
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:01,740
one or two people occasionally
would show up wearing masks, and

985
01:03:01,740 --> 01:03:04,620
by the end of the tour they had
taken it off because nobody else

986
01:03:04,620 --> 01:03:08,340
was very.
Good for him, good for you guys.

987
01:03:10,540 --> 01:03:16,900
So, so is that community.
Is that community functioning a

988
01:03:16,900 --> 01:03:20,660
lot like what you described
about Brigham City?

989
01:03:21,460 --> 01:03:24,580
Not yet.
The challenge is everything

990
01:03:24,580 --> 01:03:28,940
takes longer than you think.
So we do have at least somewhere

991
01:03:28,940 --> 01:03:33,380
around 120 people living there
full time, but the vast majority

992
01:03:33,380 --> 01:03:36,300
are focused on getting their
infrastructure in place, their

993
01:03:36,300 --> 01:03:38,580
house, their barn, their
greenhouse, their septic, their

994
01:03:38,580 --> 01:03:42,380
solar, their water well, their
water system, their greenhouse,

995
01:03:43,060 --> 01:03:45,900
getting all that in place.
That's a lot of effort.

996
01:03:46,820 --> 01:03:51,740
So only I think there are only
two, maybe three homes that are

997
01:03:51,740 --> 01:03:54,260
finished.
Mine will be finished this

998
01:03:54,260 --> 01:03:57,300
month.
I think Phillips, he already got

999
01:03:57,300 --> 01:04:00,900
his move in permit from the
county, whatever that's called.

1000
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:08,600
Occupancy, yeah, that.
So we think by the end of this

1001
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:10,960
year they're probably 18 homes
completed.

1002
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:24,480
So we're not I I want to cut our
shareholders a ton of slack.

1003
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:32,450
We're humans.
The vast are nose to the

1004
01:04:32,450 --> 01:04:34,450
grindstone.
Make it happen, get it done.

1005
01:04:35,130 --> 01:04:39,490
There are some that I'm
guessing, I don't know, out of

1006
01:04:39,490 --> 01:04:44,130
fear are freaking out and
causing all sorts of drama,

1007
01:04:45,130 --> 01:04:48,370
which is, Which is sad and
frustrating.

1008
01:04:48,370 --> 01:04:52,330
But you got to have compassion
for them because you know, maybe

1009
01:04:52,330 --> 01:04:58,060
they bit off more than they can
chew anyway.

1010
01:04:58,060 --> 01:05:01,660
So the cooperative store is not
in place yet.

1011
01:05:01,660 --> 01:05:08,100
I mean we sell gasoline and
diesel, but that's all because

1012
01:05:09,900 --> 01:05:13,700
you know, we all have the ideas.
We're going to build this wall

1013
01:05:13,700 --> 01:05:17,100
out of bricks and those bricks
are independent, self-sustaining

1014
01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:20,620
homesteads.
So we don't have them all built

1015
01:05:20,620 --> 01:05:23,020
yet.
So we're not ready to move to

1016
01:05:23,020 --> 01:05:28,210
the next step to organize as
cooperatives, you know sub coops

1017
01:05:28,210 --> 01:05:32,810
we call them to do the the coop
store, to do the K12 school, to

1018
01:05:32,810 --> 01:05:38,250
do you know all the social stuff
that that every community needs.

1019
01:05:39,130 --> 01:05:42,730
We do encourage everyone to have
their own home based business so

1020
01:05:42,730 --> 01:05:44,490
that we can have a real live
economy.

1021
01:05:46,090 --> 01:05:47,930
You know we do have an
electrician.

1022
01:05:47,930 --> 01:05:52,250
We've got among our
shareholders, we got some huge

1023
01:05:52,890 --> 01:05:56,330
breadth and depth of skills.
You know we've got a dentist, a

1024
01:05:56,330 --> 01:06:02,810
doctor, couple of nurses, couple
of midwives, 3 babies, I think

1025
01:06:02,810 --> 01:06:04,570
two or three babies have been
born out there.

1026
01:06:05,690 --> 01:06:10,610
So it it's a going concern but
no we're we're not mature yet

1027
01:06:10,610 --> 01:06:14,410
we're we're still you know a
little sprout in the in the

1028
01:06:14,410 --> 01:06:22,350
garden and and I have, I have
great anticipation for where

1029
01:06:22,350 --> 01:06:26,630
where we can go once all the
homesteads are built out and

1030
01:06:26,630 --> 01:06:30,110
selfsustaining that point will
be unstoppable.

1031
01:06:30,710 --> 01:06:32,590
It will.
It sounds like that that it's

1032
01:06:32,590 --> 01:06:36,230
still full, full steam ahead.
I mean, the one in Utah doesn't

1033
01:06:36,230 --> 01:06:38,270
sound like it's up and
functional yet, but you guys are

1034
01:06:38,270 --> 01:06:41,670
already starting one in Arizona.
Yeah.

1035
01:06:41,710 --> 01:06:48,190
Well, Phillips, how old is he
now, 7372, I can't remember.

1036
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:54,080
And he's kind of anxious to get.
The plan is to build five of

1037
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:56,760
these communities and network
them together.

1038
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:02,560
So we're essentially building an
I, I, I assume the NSA is

1039
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:04,680
listening.
We're we're essentially building

1040
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:10,440
an alternative economy from the
ground up and to and to do that

1041
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:13,320
we're building 5 communities and
those five communities are going

1042
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:15,480
to trade with each other
eventually.

1043
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:19,560
You know, and we're just barely
starting on getting the second

1044
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:21,870
one going.
Phillips like I say 70

1045
01:07:21,870 --> 01:07:24,590
something.
He's kind of anxious to get all

1046
01:07:24,590 --> 01:07:27,510
five of them going before he
gets too old to do it.

1047
01:07:27,910 --> 01:07:29,950
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.

1048
01:07:30,310 --> 01:07:33,430
So yeah.
But I think you're hitting on

1049
01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:36,590
something that I believe
personally is vitally important.

1050
01:07:36,590 --> 01:07:39,030
It's something I've actually
talked about on the podcast

1051
01:07:39,030 --> 01:07:44,910
before and again the the answers
lie behind us is.

1052
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:49,720
I I've had the contention for a
long time Mormonism might be the

1053
01:07:49,720 --> 01:07:54,200
first and perhaps the most
successful counterculture in

1054
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:58,160
American history.
We need to go back to that

1055
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:03,600
because as I look around and I
see the, the, the economics of

1056
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:05,760
today, they don't make sense,
right.

1057
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,240
Like at this point I think we're
trading with with with Monopoly

1058
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,160
money.
I think that you know we're.

1059
01:08:13,070 --> 01:08:19,350
We're one Black Swan event away
from utter collapse, right?

1060
01:08:19,350 --> 01:08:22,990
It's just the truth of it and
and and this isn't unique, this

1061
01:08:22,990 --> 01:08:26,430
has happened with every world
power that's ever been in the

1062
01:08:26,430 --> 01:08:30,910
last several thousand years.
They all rise.

1063
01:08:30,950 --> 01:08:34,270
They get prosperous, they become
the dominant world power

1064
01:08:34,270 --> 01:08:35,990
economically, and then they
collapse.

1065
01:08:36,149 --> 01:08:39,350
Every civilization has done it.
This one's going to to.

1066
01:08:39,750 --> 01:08:44,439
Yeah, and and.
This idea of a of a counter, you

1067
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:49,000
know of a parallel economy,
right, is going to be so

1068
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:56,600
important and and it sounds like
because even if if a collapse

1069
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:59,680
doesn't happen or currency
reset, let's say we go to a

1070
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,120
digital dollar something like
that.

1071
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:06,640
Look, I don't know if you can
tell here, but I really like to

1072
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:09,160
eat.
And the first time somebody says

1073
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:12,399
you've had your allotment of
cheeseburgers for the month, I'm

1074
01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:17,240
going to go ballistic.
So, I mean at some point this

1075
01:09:17,240 --> 01:09:20,600
just makes sense, right?
There's there's two or three

1076
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:24,000
different scenarios that I think
are probably inevitable that

1077
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:26,520
that there's going to need to be
a system like this in place.

1078
01:09:27,279 --> 01:09:30,880
So let me ask you this.
How, how big do you does Phillip

1079
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:33,880
think that?
That these communities will be,

1080
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,760
does he say okay?
This is the Max number of people

1081
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:39,359
we can have in one community
before we need to start another

1082
01:09:39,359 --> 01:09:42,800
one?
Well, from the research he did,

1083
01:09:44,840 --> 01:09:47,760
he came up with the understand
there was some, somebody did

1084
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:51,840
some research and they said if
you're going to have a community

1085
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:55,080
last for more than one
generation, you know, the United

1086
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:57,960
States has a bunch of
intentional communities, but

1087
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,320
it's all leftover hippies and
college kids.

1088
01:10:00,750 --> 01:10:04,510
Well, you don't have babies.
There's no, there's not going to

1089
01:10:04,510 --> 01:10:07,310
be a next generation in those
communities because there's

1090
01:10:07,310 --> 01:10:12,630
nobody having kids.
So the research he read said you

1091
01:10:12,630 --> 01:10:18,190
need at least 200 families to
have an intergenerational

1092
01:10:18,190 --> 01:10:21,270
community, so a community that
will last for generations.

1093
01:10:21,830 --> 01:10:26,550
So Riverbed Ranch had enough
room for 250 families.

1094
01:10:27,470 --> 01:10:31,620
Kosler Cove in Arizona.
I'm hoping we can squeeze 200 in

1095
01:10:31,620 --> 01:10:34,820
there.
It's actually bigger property,

1096
01:10:34,820 --> 01:10:38,980
but there's a bunch of rocky
areas that won't work for coops.

1097
01:10:39,660 --> 01:10:47,340
One of the things, one of the
things that goes on that list of

1098
01:10:47,340 --> 01:10:51,780
things that surprised me when I
did the research was that they

1099
01:10:51,780 --> 01:10:57,400
taught over and over again early
LDS leaders that Babylon and

1100
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:00,360
they referred to the American
economy as Babylon.

1101
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:06,920
Babylon will fall and we have to
become self-sustaining.

1102
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:09,440
They taught that over and over
again.

1103
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,280
And you know, I could read a
dozen quotes right here in the

1104
01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:19,600
in this chapter, Chapter 9, I
believe it is that Babylon's

1105
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:21,760
going to fall.
We have to become, we have to

1106
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,320
produce all our own clothes.
We have to produce everything.

1107
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,580
And that was the push to be
self-sustaining.

1108
01:11:29,620 --> 01:11:34,980
And so once we build these five
communities they can specialize

1109
01:11:34,980 --> 01:11:39,780
if they want to or whatever.
You know, it's free country, but

1110
01:11:39,780 --> 01:11:44,620
they'll be can be trading with
each other and also then within

1111
01:11:45,140 --> 01:11:46,980
within their own community as
well.

1112
01:11:48,180 --> 01:11:53,940
I I have.
I have hope that that the Saints

1113
01:11:53,940 --> 01:11:58,310
will pull through and do it.
I I'm afraid that between here

1114
01:11:58,310 --> 01:12:04,030
and there it's going to be very
rough for us all.

1115
01:12:06,070 --> 01:12:11,630
Surprise me at all if somebody
or something takes out the power

1116
01:12:11,630 --> 01:12:15,830
grid.
Every agency in the US

1117
01:12:15,830 --> 01:12:19,110
government has done a report
saying this is not a matter of

1118
01:12:19,110 --> 01:12:24,050
if, it's a matter of when.
So to be independent, producing

1119
01:12:24,050 --> 01:12:27,250
all their own food, water and
power, that just makes perfect

1120
01:12:27,250 --> 01:12:30,170
sense to me.
Why would you do anything else?

1121
01:12:30,930 --> 01:12:32,130
Right, right.
Yeah.

1122
01:12:32,170 --> 01:12:36,690
No, absolutely.
And and so I worked for a little

1123
01:12:36,690 --> 01:12:39,970
while out on the Eastern Shore
of Maryland, about three years

1124
01:12:41,370 --> 01:12:43,450
left.
Idaho went back east because

1125
01:12:43,450 --> 01:12:44,970
they surveyed differently out
there.

1126
01:12:45,330 --> 01:12:48,330
Now I want an opportunity to see
that and.

1127
01:12:51,500 --> 01:12:58,820
One of the things that that I
noticed right away was there's

1128
01:12:58,820 --> 01:13:05,580
there, there was absolutely no
plans for emergency.

1129
01:13:06,260 --> 01:13:10,580
And I was back in Maryland when
Katrina hit New Orleans.

1130
01:13:11,300 --> 01:13:16,340
And I worked for a a massive
conglomerate of I mean, we had

1131
01:13:16,340 --> 01:13:18,460
our own dirt movers, Our own
pavers.

1132
01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:23,080
I was just one cog in that wheel
as a surveyor, but I got, I got

1133
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:27,960
the opportunity to go down and
survey on the new levees, right.

1134
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:32,120
And I happen to meet a good guy
down there and I'm still friends

1135
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:35,920
with him to this day and he's an
Emergency Management coordinator

1136
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:41,080
and he'll be the first to tell
you that what we do the best we

1137
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:42,840
can.
But at the end of the day, you

1138
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,920
really are kind of on your own.
I mean there's there's no doubt

1139
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,350
about that.
And I asked him once, going back

1140
01:13:49,350 --> 01:13:51,430
to what you were saying about
the power grid, I said, what's

1141
01:13:51,430 --> 01:13:54,470
your nightmare scenario?
He's like, oh, EMPI mean, he

1142
01:13:54,470 --> 01:13:56,550
didn't even, didn't even
hesitate, right.

1143
01:13:56,550 --> 01:13:58,430
He's just like EMP And I'm like,
what?

1144
01:13:58,430 --> 01:14:00,750
What's that?
And he's like electromagnetic

1145
01:14:00,750 --> 01:14:02,190
pulse.
And I'm like, well, what causes

1146
01:14:02,190 --> 01:14:03,870
that?
He says, oh, a variety of

1147
01:14:03,870 --> 01:14:06,350
things.
He's like a sunburst, you know,

1148
01:14:06,350 --> 01:14:08,630
that that could be one of them.
He's like, there was one in the

1149
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:13,510
1900s, fried fried Telegraph
lines up in all over the

1150
01:14:13,510 --> 01:14:15,920
country.
I mean the world, all over the

1151
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:17,920
world.
Yeah, they they caught fire,

1152
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:19,960
right?
I mean, like, really took it

1153
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:22,720
out.
And he said the other is if you

1154
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:25,800
know, a country did want to
invade, it would, you know, if

1155
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:27,720
you detonated one in an air
burst.

1156
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:31,000
He said that's prime for them
because you don't contaminate

1157
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:32,720
the ground.
I mean, you have a little bit of

1158
01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:36,640
fallout, but not much.
And he said two, maybe three,

1159
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:39,640
well placed, would take out the
country's entire grid.

1160
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:42,000
They would put us back to the
1500s.

1161
01:14:42,280 --> 01:14:44,040
And I was like, well, what's so
bad about that?

1162
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:47,790
And he's like well.
He goes down the list and he's

1163
01:14:47,790 --> 01:14:49,950
like, well, let's just start
with people who are on

1164
01:14:49,950 --> 01:14:52,470
lifesaving medication.
Those people are done.

1165
01:14:53,830 --> 01:14:55,270
No more.
You're not getting it anymore.

1166
01:14:56,390 --> 01:14:59,630
A common cut is now going to get
infected and people will start

1167
01:14:59,630 --> 01:15:03,030
dying from infection again.
He's like today when you get a

1168
01:15:03,030 --> 01:15:07,400
real bad, you know.
Nasal infection or you get sick.

1169
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:09,640
He's like, it's not a big deal.
You run into the, you run into

1170
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:12,080
the dock, you write you a
script, You go to the target,

1171
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,000
You get it filled.
You're feeling better in no

1172
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:15,360
time.
You're going to die from that,

1173
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:17,920
right.
And and then he's like, oh, and

1174
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:21,160
and then, you know, even before
we get to massive hunger, you

1175
01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:23,400
have roving gangs of
individuals, right?

1176
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,760
And he just goes down this list.
And I'm like, you got to be a

1177
01:15:26,760 --> 01:15:31,760
joy of parties, my man.
I'm like, like, I'm sure you're

1178
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:35,430
the most popular guy there, but.
But it it really opened up my

1179
01:15:35,430 --> 01:15:36,270
eyes.
Right?

1180
01:15:36,670 --> 01:15:38,950
And and I remember he said
something that really startled

1181
01:15:38,950 --> 01:15:40,550
me.
He said the the average American

1182
01:15:40,550 --> 01:15:43,030
family is exactly 3 meals away
from starvation.

1183
01:15:44,070 --> 01:15:47,670
He's like, we live in a in a
time now where, oh, we're out of

1184
01:15:47,670 --> 01:15:48,790
food.
I guess we'll just go to the

1185
01:15:48,790 --> 01:15:54,150
store, right?
We saw in COVID that was very,

1186
01:15:54,150 --> 01:15:57,510
very fragile that.
Is so fragile.

1187
01:15:58,990 --> 01:16:02,950
I Remember Me and my son.
If if you remember, Governor

1188
01:16:02,950 --> 01:16:06,310
Herbert at that time came out
and had, you know, kind of

1189
01:16:06,310 --> 01:16:09,070
giving everyone warning that,
hey, in like 3 days we're going

1190
01:16:09,070 --> 01:16:12,350
into a lockdown situation.
And he went out of his way to

1191
01:16:12,350 --> 01:16:15,550
say, but the stores are still
going to be open, don't worry

1192
01:16:15,550 --> 01:16:20,750
about that.
And so my son, who who was in

1193
01:16:20,750 --> 01:16:25,830
college at the time, him and his
wife and his granddaughter, came

1194
01:16:25,830 --> 01:16:28,750
to live with us because his
business just knew what it

1195
01:16:28,750 --> 01:16:29,990
meant, right?
And said.

1196
01:16:30,770 --> 01:16:33,410
We're we're going to lay off
because we're non essential.

1197
01:16:33,930 --> 01:16:37,690
So lay off and and he's like,
Dad, I think I'm just going to

1198
01:16:37,690 --> 01:16:39,810
have to go be a surveyor.
And I'm like, you shut your

1199
01:16:39,810 --> 01:16:44,050
dirty mouth.
Just just we got a downstairs

1200
01:16:44,050 --> 01:16:46,250
apartment.
You guys can live in that and

1201
01:16:46,250 --> 01:16:50,090
you know, just stay in school.
And so they came to live with us

1202
01:16:50,130 --> 01:16:54,370
and and this was just a couple
days before lockdown hit and I

1203
01:16:54,370 --> 01:16:57,650
was like, it was him and I were
up talking.

1204
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:00,800
Into the.
I want to say it was like 11:30

1205
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:03,760
at night and he's like, how do
you think people are faring in

1206
01:17:03,760 --> 01:17:05,080
this?
And I'm like, I don't know I was

1207
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:08,360
like it's Utah, right.
I mean they got to be doing the

1208
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:11,520
the the LDS church has been
talking for years about food

1209
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:13,400
storage.
I'm sure you know it's fine we

1210
01:17:13,400 --> 01:17:16,400
got to be better than everybody
else And he goes, why don't we

1211
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:19,440
just he's like you want to go to
Winco, Like, sure let's go to

1212
01:17:19,440 --> 01:17:21,880
Winco right.
So at like midnight we go to

1213
01:17:21,880 --> 01:17:28,830
Winco and dude, it was.
It it honestly shook me and and

1214
01:17:28,830 --> 01:17:33,350
I had a lot of empathy for
people because as I'm in there

1215
01:17:34,110 --> 01:17:38,710
for the first time in my life,
the shelves are bare, right?

1216
01:17:38,710 --> 01:17:42,670
And people are grabbing food.
The second it hits the floor,

1217
01:17:42,670 --> 01:17:45,910
even before it's out-of-the-box
off the pallet, they're just

1218
01:17:45,910 --> 01:17:49,070
waiting for the truck to come in
and they're grabbing food as

1219
01:17:49,070 --> 01:17:52,750
quick as they can.
And the fear was so palpable at

1220
01:17:53,470 --> 01:18:00,210
12:30 in the morning.
In Orem UT and I was like and

1221
01:18:00,210 --> 01:18:03,650
and this was a little startling
too I remember, I remember the

1222
01:18:03,650 --> 01:18:07,210
message just came that you know
maybe we as a people have failed

1223
01:18:07,210 --> 01:18:10,250
here.
Maybe maybe this was gut check

1224
01:18:10,250 --> 01:18:13,250
time.
Maybe this was a good test to

1225
01:18:13,250 --> 01:18:17,290
see where you're at.
And and I I can't agree with you

1226
01:18:17,290 --> 01:18:19,610
more that that at some point
something's going to happen and

1227
01:18:19,610 --> 01:18:21,810
we want to be in a position to
where we can be as

1228
01:18:22,170 --> 01:18:24,360
self-sufficient as possible.
Yeah.

1229
01:18:24,440 --> 01:18:28,960
And and my argument is a we
should be moving in the

1230
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:32,920
direction of building Zion, but
B somebody has to survive.

1231
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,120
To build it, somebody has to
build the new Jerusalem.

1232
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:41,680
It's not going to build itself.
So somebody has to survive

1233
01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:47,000
between here and there.
You know it and and with all

1234
01:18:47,000 --> 01:18:54,720
this the way things are going
with well like China's social

1235
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:58,240
credit system.
I I literally read with my own

1236
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:03,760
eyes on this very screen an
article in a finance journal

1237
01:19:04,280 --> 01:19:10,560
saying China's credit system
social credit system is going to

1238
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:13,600
roll out worldwide.
Be sure to invest in this

1239
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:16,640
company, this company, this big
list of companies that you need

1240
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:20,560
to invest in so that you can
make money off the world

1241
01:19:20,560 --> 01:19:22,070
tyranny.
Cool.

1242
01:19:25,430 --> 01:19:28,230
Yay, That's the worst timeshare
ever.

1243
01:19:28,350 --> 01:19:33,310
Let's just go the way so, so
clearly the movement is in that

1244
01:19:33,310 --> 01:19:35,630
direction.
We're we're going to essentially

1245
01:19:35,630 --> 01:19:40,830
enslave the entire world using
the Internet or some form of the

1246
01:19:40,830 --> 01:19:44,430
Internet.
It just makes perfect sense to

1247
01:19:44,430 --> 01:19:48,790
me, you know, Revelation 18, I
believe it's 18, talks about the

1248
01:19:48,790 --> 01:19:51,750
mark of the beast.
You can't buy or sell.

1249
01:19:51,790 --> 01:19:55,710
Those are economic activities
you can't buy or sell unless you

1250
01:19:55,710 --> 01:19:58,590
have the mark.
Well, if I'm growing my own

1251
01:19:58,590 --> 01:20:01,950
food, producing my own
electricity, have my own, well,

1252
01:20:02,430 --> 01:20:08,230
what do I need with the mark?
What do I need that for?

1253
01:20:09,550 --> 01:20:12,350
So.
Anyway, let me ask you this and

1254
01:20:12,350 --> 01:20:14,470
setting these up.
What has been the biggest

1255
01:20:14,470 --> 01:20:18,970
obstacle?
Well, that's interesting because

1256
01:20:18,970 --> 01:20:22,010
I just did a survey.
In fact, maybe I should pull

1257
01:20:22,010 --> 01:20:27,170
that up.
I just did a survey among the

1258
01:20:27,170 --> 01:20:30,490
people who haven't joined our
coop after they did the tour.

1259
01:20:31,210 --> 01:20:35,970
So about almost exactly 30% of
the people who come to a tour,

1260
01:20:35,970 --> 01:20:38,010
they just fall in love with the
place and they join.

1261
01:20:40,130 --> 01:20:44,370
The other 70% don't.
So I thought, well, I should ask

1262
01:20:44,370 --> 01:20:45,410
him, why?
What?

1263
01:20:45,410 --> 01:20:47,650
Why aren't you joining?
What's the obstacle?

1264
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:51,680
And the number one obstacle for
riverbed ranches?

1265
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:56,000
It's too far out there.
You know, I've got grandkids,

1266
01:20:56,560 --> 01:20:59,280
you know, it's too far for my
family to come visit me, Which

1267
01:20:59,280 --> 01:21:01,920
is hilarious because we have
grandparents out there and their

1268
01:21:01,920 --> 01:21:05,320
kids come, their grandkids come
visit them, and the people who

1269
01:21:05,320 --> 01:21:10,040
live out there go to town on the
average 1 1/2 * a week.

1270
01:21:10,480 --> 01:21:16,520
So it's not like they're moving
to Hawaii or Alaska anyway.

1271
01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:21,560
So yeah, and of course the cost.
You know, it's not cheap to

1272
01:21:21,560 --> 01:21:25,520
build a homestead where the the
members of the coop are

1273
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:27,960
constantly finding ways to save
money.

1274
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:32,000
But cost is a is a real issue
for a lot of people.

1275
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:34,120
There are a lot of people live
paycheck to paycheck.

1276
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:38,080
They have no savings.
They see the writing on the wall

1277
01:21:38,080 --> 01:21:41,440
and say I've got to get out of
here, but they're stuck because

1278
01:21:41,440 --> 01:21:43,760
they don't.
They don't have the resources.

1279
01:21:45,740 --> 01:21:49,260
We feel bad for those people,
but at this point we can't help

1280
01:21:49,260 --> 01:21:52,060
them.
Once we're built out completely,

1281
01:21:52,060 --> 01:21:56,220
we will be able to help them.
In fact, it's actually quite

1282
01:21:56,220 --> 01:22:00,620
likely that people once once our
communities fully fleshed out we

1283
01:22:00,620 --> 01:22:03,980
figure there'll be 900 to 1000
people will be the 3rd or 4th

1284
01:22:03,980 --> 01:22:10,180
largest town in our county once
we're built out fully.

1285
01:22:10,620 --> 01:22:14,020
If there's if there's an EMP
strike for example, and these

1286
01:22:14,020 --> 01:22:17,880
70% to.
Couldn't couldn't make it out to

1287
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:20,440
us.
Come out to us and say okay, we

1288
01:22:20,440 --> 01:22:22,920
know you guys are producing
food, can we help?

1289
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:27,240
We'll either hand them a shovel
and say okay help us grow the

1290
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:30,240
food or we'll hand them a
backpack and we actually have

1291
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:35,400
4000 backpacks someone donated
and with full of food and say

1292
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:37,320
pick.
You know, either you stay here

1293
01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:41,920
and work and support yourself or
be on your way.

1294
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:45,920
I can.
I can see that being a very real

1295
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:50,280
possibility, you know, and and
that's so refreshing to hear

1296
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:54,160
because I think so many people
have this idea of we're just

1297
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:57,480
going to bunker in, build a wall
and keep everybody else out.

1298
01:22:58,000 --> 01:23:04,000
And I, I've said for a long time
on on 2 fronts, let's start

1299
01:23:04,000 --> 01:23:07,040
first with just practicality.
There's always going to be more

1300
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:10,760
of then the more.
Of there are of us also.

1301
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:14,560
That's not what Zion and and
again, I'm not saying that you

1302
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:17,200
guys are building Zion, you're
building a stepping stone to

1303
01:23:17,200 --> 01:23:21,960
that.
But I I won't make that clear.

1304
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:27,440
But that's not what this whole
exercise is about, right.

1305
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:30,760
And and in some of the things
I've read from Brigham and John

1306
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:35,440
Taylor, people are going to flow
to those Zion communities for

1307
01:23:35,440 --> 01:23:38,720
safety.
And if, if we don't offer that

1308
01:23:38,880 --> 01:23:41,530
as Mormons, well, we failed,
right?

1309
01:23:41,530 --> 01:23:42,610
I I don't know how else to say
it.

1310
01:23:42,610 --> 01:23:46,730
We we've we've failed, right.
You know, obviously you got to

1311
01:23:46,730 --> 01:23:49,090
deal with the troublemakers and
the rabble rousers and those

1312
01:23:49,090 --> 01:23:51,730
sorts of things, but which?
Won't be pleasant.

1313
01:23:52,250 --> 01:23:53,530
Yeah.
No it's not.

1314
01:23:53,730 --> 01:23:58,410
But the average, you know, dad
and mom who are like, I I just.

1315
01:23:58,650 --> 01:24:00,850
I just got to feed my kids,
right?

1316
01:24:01,290 --> 01:24:04,690
I, I, I almost tear up now
thinking about I I couldn't turn

1317
01:24:04,690 --> 01:24:07,490
someone away.
As much as I'd want to.

1318
01:24:08,290 --> 01:24:12,610
I couldn't right.
I'd be like, crap, okay, here we

1319
01:24:12,610 --> 01:24:14,890
go.
And so if if we're not those

1320
01:24:14,890 --> 01:24:19,610
people and if we're not ready to
receive the, you know, God's

1321
01:24:19,610 --> 01:24:22,370
children that way, I I don't
think we've we've done our job.

1322
01:24:22,810 --> 01:24:26,970
Yeah, yeah.
One of the the there's a a

1323
01:24:27,090 --> 01:24:29,490
wonderful.
I'd recommend this to all your

1324
01:24:29,490 --> 01:24:35,330
listeners.
The book one second after that

1325
01:24:35,330 --> 01:24:38,690
is so sobering to read that book
and it's a novel.

1326
01:24:39,210 --> 01:24:42,570
But it's based on that concept
of an EMP strike in the United

1327
01:24:42,570 --> 01:24:47,610
States and it's very sobering.
You read that and you go okay.

1328
01:24:47,890 --> 01:24:51,450
I am definitely going to get my
food storage in.

1329
01:24:51,530 --> 01:24:55,730
In the intro video that we have
on YouTube and our and our

1330
01:24:55,930 --> 01:24:59,450
website, Phillip tells the
story.

1331
01:25:00,250 --> 01:25:04,330
You know, after he and his
family had to deal with freezing

1332
01:25:04,330 --> 01:25:10,820
cold in their trailer.
He got on this kick to do food

1333
01:25:10,820 --> 01:25:13,580
storage.
So it took him multiple years.

1334
01:25:13,580 --> 01:25:16,660
He finally, you know and he had
more kids so he had to get more

1335
01:25:16,660 --> 01:25:19,620
and more food storage.
He finally had two years supply

1336
01:25:20,420 --> 01:25:24,580
and he when he realized, OK, I'm
done, I've got it.

1337
01:25:25,180 --> 01:25:28,820
He laid down in bed trying to go
to sleep and this little voice

1338
01:25:28,820 --> 01:25:34,300
in the back of his head goes OK,
what are you going to do if the

1339
01:25:34,300 --> 01:25:38,890
crisis lasts 2 weeks longer?
Than your food storage.

1340
01:25:41,530 --> 01:25:45,010
I I ask everyone who has food
storage that same question, what

1341
01:25:45,010 --> 01:25:49,610
are you going to do if the
crisis lasts 2 weeks longer?

1342
01:25:50,010 --> 01:25:52,410
Well, you obviously have to be
producing food.

1343
01:25:53,370 --> 01:25:56,690
You have to be producing food.
You got to get good at it and

1344
01:25:56,690 --> 01:26:00,290
that takes practice.
So don't wait until the crisis

1345
01:26:00,290 --> 01:26:04,890
hits to start your garden, to
plant your grapevines, to plant

1346
01:26:04,890 --> 01:26:08,900
your fruit trees.
That's just foolishness.

1347
01:26:09,420 --> 01:26:11,220
Yeah.
What?

1348
01:26:11,740 --> 01:26:16,740
What have you had to to do?
Let me rephrase this.

1349
01:26:18,020 --> 01:26:22,620
Has the government been impeded
you guys in any way?

1350
01:26:23,540 --> 01:26:28,180
Yes, I don't think it was
malicious necessarily.

1351
01:26:28,700 --> 01:26:31,100
It just, you know, this is
different.

1352
01:26:31,260 --> 01:26:35,280
This is a different system.
There are coops.

1353
01:26:35,720 --> 01:26:38,640
Over a million Americans own
their land or their house

1354
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:40,960
through a coop.
It's not unusual.

1355
01:26:41,360 --> 01:26:45,120
It's just it's not customary.
Customary is a developer comes

1356
01:26:45,120 --> 01:26:48,480
in, builds a bunch of rickety
houses and sells them all.

1357
01:26:48,480 --> 01:26:50,160
And he's gone.
And you never hear from him

1358
01:26:50,160 --> 01:26:52,440
again.
We're doing something completely

1359
01:26:52,440 --> 01:26:56,960
different.
And so, and gratefully, Phillip

1360
01:26:56,960 --> 01:27:00,800
had gobs of experience dealing
with bureaucrats, government

1361
01:27:00,800 --> 01:27:06,170
employees, and so he.
You know, slowly acclimated them

1362
01:27:06,170 --> 01:27:15,010
to what we were doing and short
story, I don't want to forget

1363
01:27:15,010 --> 01:27:17,090
the other story, so I'm going to
write it down here.

1364
01:27:21,970 --> 01:27:25,570
The 1st, I believe it was three
or four families that took their

1365
01:27:25,570 --> 01:27:28,530
house plans into the county to
get them approved.

1366
01:27:28,810 --> 01:27:31,370
You know you have to pay the
county money to approve your

1367
01:27:31,370 --> 01:27:32,730
plans.
I love that.

1368
01:27:33,320 --> 01:27:37,280
Anyway, the first three or four,
they approved them, no problem.

1369
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:41,400
The next guy goes in and they
said, well, we've changed our

1370
01:27:41,400 --> 01:27:43,680
mind.
We've decided that you guys

1371
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:47,400
either need to put in sprinkler
systems in all your homes or you

1372
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:48,720
need a Volunteer Fire
Department.

1373
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:51,960
So we're not going to approve
your plans until you get one of

1374
01:27:51,960 --> 01:27:55,100
those.
Well, two days later we had 12

1375
01:27:55,220 --> 01:27:58,020
will show up for the fire
department training, Volunteer

1376
01:27:58,020 --> 01:28:00,700
Fire Department training.
And now we have.

1377
01:28:00,740 --> 01:28:02,660
Now we have our own Volunteer
Fire Department.

1378
01:28:02,700 --> 01:28:05,340
We have two trucks.
The county loves us because

1379
01:28:05,340 --> 01:28:06,740
we're out in the middle of
nowhere.

1380
01:28:07,100 --> 01:28:08,780
They can't get there fast
enough.

1381
01:28:08,780 --> 01:28:13,060
If there's a crisis, we can.
So anyway so that's one story.

1382
01:28:13,060 --> 01:28:17,020
So we so the so the County Fire
department loves us.

1383
01:28:18,220 --> 01:28:22,100
Now the other story I want to
tell you We.

1384
01:28:23,500 --> 01:28:30,100
So we bought, So what With the
land came 2854 1/2 acre feet of

1385
01:28:30,100 --> 01:28:33,980
water rights, which is worth
more than we paid for the land.

1386
01:28:36,500 --> 01:28:41,340
So we had the water rights, we
had the property in our name, We

1387
01:28:41,340 --> 01:28:43,180
owned the land, We owned the
water rights.

1388
01:28:43,580 --> 01:28:45,660
We went to the state water
rights division.

1389
01:28:46,700 --> 01:28:51,090
We worked with a water engineer.
He approved our plan.

1390
01:28:51,130 --> 01:28:56,290
We started drilling wells, we
got nine wells drilled and then

1391
01:28:56,370 --> 01:29:02,090
apparently his boss saw what we
were doing and I'm guessing so

1392
01:29:02,650 --> 01:29:07,730
In the previous year, Utah
hadn't drilled 250 wells.

1393
01:29:08,170 --> 01:29:14,090
We were talking about drilling
250 wells in one, one setting,

1394
01:29:14,450 --> 01:29:16,890
right.
So I think that kind of freaked

1395
01:29:16,890 --> 01:29:19,210
out the the head of the water
rights division.

1396
01:29:19,500 --> 01:29:23,180
And she didn't want to be in
charge of the division during a

1397
01:29:23,700 --> 01:29:30,540
drought and drilling 250 wells.
That's my guess every time.

1398
01:29:30,740 --> 01:29:33,700
So she shut us down for a year,
couldn't drill any wells for a

1399
01:29:33,700 --> 01:29:36,980
year.
We'd already drilled 9 and then

1400
01:29:36,980 --> 01:29:41,380
they said stop.
So in that year, she kept giving

1401
01:29:41,380 --> 01:29:46,220
us these excuse of reasons that
made absolutely no logical sense

1402
01:29:46,220 --> 01:29:53,900
to us.
And finally, finally, Phillip

1403
01:29:53,900 --> 01:29:57,620
gave up on being diplomatic and
hired a water rights attorney.

1404
01:29:58,860 --> 01:30:03,140
And magically the Water Rights
Division was all smiles and

1405
01:30:03,140 --> 01:30:06,140
helpfulness.
So you own it.

1406
01:30:06,140 --> 01:30:10,060
So the lesson there is if you
want justice in America, you

1407
01:30:10,060 --> 01:30:16,760
just have to pay for it.
Yeah, I, I, you know, I tend to

1408
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:19,440
agree with Ronald Reagan and
what he said that that some of

1409
01:30:19,440 --> 01:30:22,880
the most frightening words in
all the English languages is I'm

1410
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:24,600
here from the government and I'm
here to help.

1411
01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:29,160
So I, I, I truly believe that.
And and look, as a surveyor, we

1412
01:30:29,160 --> 01:30:32,760
deal all the time with, with
public, with, with those, with

1413
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:37,040
those, you know, municipalities
and those, those government

1414
01:30:37,040 --> 01:30:39,880
agencies, it's a nightmare.
It's a hassle.

1415
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:42,600
And so I was curious how you
guys were faring in that cause I

1416
01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:44,640
could only imagine that
somewhere there was some

1417
01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:48,320
bureaucrat licking his chops
like, Oh no, these people aren't

1418
01:30:48,320 --> 01:30:50,560
going to do this.
They're they're bucking the

1419
01:30:50,560 --> 01:30:53,720
system.
How, how do you guys intend on

1420
01:30:53,720 --> 01:30:56,840
governing the community?
Is this something that that you

1421
01:30:56,840 --> 01:31:00,280
know, just comes with like some
CC&R, some covenants, conditions

1422
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:04,400
and restrictions with like other
land use, you know, like a

1423
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:06,040
subdivision or something like
that?

1424
01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:08,960
Or is there like a community
meeting?

1425
01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:11,960
Do you guys elect like a mayor
or anything like that?

1426
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:15,280
What?
How do you foresee this

1427
01:31:15,280 --> 01:31:21,120
community being governed?
The the fact that you're asking

1428
01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:25,920
me that question tells me that
Babylon is rubbed off on your

1429
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:29,720
worldview, probably.
You're assuming that we need to

1430
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:33,290
go.
Why would we need one?

1431
01:31:33,650 --> 01:31:36,890
The county has plenty of laws.
The state has plenty of laws.

1432
01:31:37,570 --> 01:31:40,090
The country has plenty of laws.
Why do we need more laws?

1433
01:31:40,330 --> 01:31:42,250
Perfect.
No, that's good.

1434
01:31:43,330 --> 01:31:47,610
So the Coop, which is a
business, I have to remind some

1435
01:31:47,610 --> 01:31:51,250
of our shareholders of that,
it's not a government, it's not

1436
01:31:51,250 --> 01:31:54,930
your daddy.
It's a business we run up.

1437
01:31:54,970 --> 01:31:57,090
We're supposed to be running it
like a business.

1438
01:31:57,690 --> 01:32:00,650
We elect board members and the
board members are.

1439
01:32:01,000 --> 01:32:06,880
Responsible for That's how coops
work nationwide, worldwide,

1440
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:10,880
that's how coops work.
So it's not a government.

1441
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:16,560
So they're, you know, if
somebody wants to use coop

1442
01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:20,480
property or coop assets, then
that issue needs to be brought

1443
01:32:20,480 --> 01:32:26,400
to the board.
We're not all on the same page

1444
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:29,720
with that yet.
We're hoping that eventually.

1445
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:32,200
Everybody's going to get it
right.

1446
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:40,040
Most of most of our shareholders
I think get it, but let me ask

1447
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:44,120
this question because I think
this is super important as well.

1448
01:32:45,480 --> 01:32:49,320
How is it then that that you
guys are making sure that that

1449
01:32:49,320 --> 01:32:53,320
the people that are coming out
there to live have the same

1450
01:32:53,720 --> 01:32:58,360
values and principles you do?
Because a lot of times it's sort

1451
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:02,230
of lifestyles seems appealing on
the surface to a lot of people.

1452
01:33:02,510 --> 01:33:05,030
But when you get into the
nittygritty and they start

1453
01:33:05,030 --> 01:33:07,510
having to put in the work or the
money or any of those other

1454
01:33:07,510 --> 01:33:11,950
things, then things become a
little more convoluted and they

1455
01:33:11,950 --> 01:33:16,390
may reach for that government
lever a little bit more as it it

1456
01:33:16,390 --> 01:33:17,990
makes things easier on their
end.

1457
01:33:18,310 --> 01:33:23,280
How are you guys making sure
that that that that core group

1458
01:33:23,280 --> 01:33:28,320
coming in is is well educated
and and realistic enough about

1459
01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:31,360
what they're undertaking that
you're not getting a lot of

1460
01:33:31,360 --> 01:33:34,360
people coming in and going oh
crap, and then selling it like

1461
01:33:34,360 --> 01:33:36,200
halfway developed?
Yeah.

1462
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:40,240
That's actually happening.
It is a challenge.

1463
01:33:40,480 --> 01:33:44,640
So we have an interview process
that we go through.

1464
01:33:45,760 --> 01:33:48,800
First off, the fact that we're
out in the middle of nowhere is

1465
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:55,590
a huge filter.
You have to really be serious

1466
01:33:55,590 --> 01:33:59,470
about a self reliant lifestyle.
To move two hours away from Salt

1467
01:33:59,470 --> 01:34:03,990
Lake City out in the desert on
an old alfalfa farm, you've got

1468
01:34:03,990 --> 01:34:08,870
to be serious about living an
off grid lifestyle that that

1469
01:34:08,870 --> 01:34:13,550
alone is a huge filter.
But we also invite people.

1470
01:34:14,110 --> 01:34:18,030
We we tell people, look we we
want you to be serious about

1471
01:34:18,310 --> 01:34:19,390
self-reliance.
A.

1472
01:34:20,030 --> 01:34:24,470
You need to like people.
You know, narcissists don't

1473
01:34:24,550 --> 01:34:27,590
really work well because they
think they know everything and

1474
01:34:27,590 --> 01:34:30,390
they're always right, right.
That doesn't work well in the

1475
01:34:30,390 --> 01:34:34,710
community setting.
So you need to really like

1476
01:34:34,710 --> 01:34:37,670
people and and be able to get
along with them.

1477
01:34:41,030 --> 01:34:43,790
Phillip has this whole list and
I can't ever remember all five

1478
01:34:43,790 --> 01:34:47,190
things.
And the last one is you got to

1479
01:34:47,190 --> 01:34:50,380
have resources.
To do this and that.

1480
01:34:50,420 --> 01:34:54,980
Unfortunately, that's the second
most common reason why people

1481
01:34:55,500 --> 01:34:57,300
don't join as they can't afford
it.

1482
01:35:01,020 --> 01:35:04,100
Remind me your question, just
how are you?

1483
01:35:04,100 --> 01:35:06,940
Are you you making sure that
you're getting the right kind of

1484
01:35:07,100 --> 01:35:09,220
people?
The right kind of people in that

1485
01:35:09,460 --> 01:35:14,470
cuz I would imagine that that
why you're still building it.

1486
01:35:14,470 --> 01:35:16,950
That core group is super
important, right?

1487
01:35:17,230 --> 01:35:20,030
I feel and I'm just
hypothesizing here, so I could

1488
01:35:20,030 --> 01:35:24,590
be completely wrong, but my
guess would be as if you had, if

1489
01:35:24,590 --> 01:35:28,230
you had your core people, they
can kind of teach others, right?

1490
01:35:28,230 --> 01:35:31,790
They can, they can kind of start
start passing that along, but

1491
01:35:31,790 --> 01:35:33,270
that core group's important.
So.

1492
01:35:33,270 --> 01:35:35,990
So what steps you guys taking to
make sure you get the right

1493
01:35:35,990 --> 01:35:39,590
people in place in that core
group to to give this thing a

1494
01:35:39,590 --> 01:35:40,990
fighting chance?
So what?

1495
01:35:40,990 --> 01:35:42,910
Like I say, we do the.
We do.

1496
01:35:43,070 --> 01:35:44,390
So we're out in the middle of
nowhere.

1497
01:35:44,390 --> 01:35:48,430
We do interview, interview
process to try to discern that

1498
01:35:48,710 --> 01:35:53,590
are are these people a capable,
are they going to play well with

1499
01:35:53,590 --> 01:35:57,230
others, All of that.
Then we turn them over to the

1500
01:35:57,230 --> 01:36:01,950
board and they my understanding
is they do background checks.

1501
01:36:01,950 --> 01:36:05,910
You know, we don't really want
child rapists and drug dealers

1502
01:36:05,910 --> 01:36:08,830
in our community.
Sorry, go go live in LA.

1503
01:36:12,800 --> 01:36:16,480
So, so there's that filtering
process.

1504
01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:21,200
There's a huge amount of idea
sharing going on at Riverbed

1505
01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:23,760
Range.
So everybody sees what everyone

1506
01:36:23,760 --> 01:36:26,080
else is doing and go, wow,
that's a great idea.

1507
01:36:27,400 --> 01:36:29,720
I'm going to take that and I'm
going to tweak it over here,

1508
01:36:29,720 --> 01:36:31,760
which is what I did with
Phillips House plan.

1509
01:36:32,160 --> 01:36:36,160
I saw how fast his house was
going up and I thought holy cow

1510
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:40,440
I'm going to use that system.
And so I said, can I get a copy

1511
01:36:40,440 --> 01:36:43,070
of your?
Your House plan sure gives me a

1512
01:36:43,070 --> 01:36:44,790
copy.
I recreate it and I go.

1513
01:36:45,150 --> 01:36:46,870
There's not enough storage space
in this.

1514
01:36:46,910 --> 01:36:49,670
I'm going to add 4 feet and put
in closets.

1515
01:36:50,070 --> 01:36:52,150
So you know there's gobs of
that.

1516
01:36:52,630 --> 01:36:55,670
Take someone's idea, tweak it,
make it a little better

1517
01:36:55,670 --> 01:36:59,110
implemented on your own, lot
lots of that going on.

1518
01:37:01,590 --> 01:37:06,510
And so it I this is a
generality.

1519
01:37:06,510 --> 01:37:09,630
OK, so there are exceptions, but
typically?

1520
01:37:10,130 --> 01:37:13,050
And and again, I say the vast
majority of our shareholders are

1521
01:37:13,050 --> 01:37:16,290
just awesome people.
They're, they're getting it

1522
01:37:16,290 --> 01:37:18,450
done, they're making it happen
and they're overcoming the

1523
01:37:18,450 --> 01:37:20,130
challenges.
And there are challenges.

1524
01:37:21,090 --> 01:37:24,290
They're problem solvers.
They're they have intellectual

1525
01:37:24,290 --> 01:37:26,450
courage.
They're ready to tackle this

1526
01:37:26,450 --> 01:37:29,770
project.
There are others that I believe.

1527
01:37:29,770 --> 01:37:33,210
I'm guessing because of the
economy, the housing market

1528
01:37:33,210 --> 01:37:36,930
slumping couldn't sell their
homes for what they wanted.

1529
01:37:37,670 --> 01:37:39,950
Couldn't sell their homes for
what they needed in order to

1530
01:37:39,950 --> 01:37:41,990
build at Riverbed Ranch and now
they're scared.

1531
01:37:42,670 --> 01:37:47,470
So there's a few of those and
and I feel for them but I right

1532
01:37:47,470 --> 01:37:50,790
now we're the coop is in a
position to help them other than

1533
01:37:50,910 --> 01:37:54,350
give them cost saving ideas
which we're doing plenty of.

1534
01:37:57,110 --> 01:38:01,430
So yes, we, you know, God's
going to cheat when he builds

1535
01:38:01,430 --> 01:38:03,550
the New Jerusalem and it it
really stinks.

1536
01:38:04,630 --> 01:38:09,110
And what I mean by that is.
You know, according to our LDS

1537
01:38:09,110 --> 01:38:12,750
doctrine, the the telestial
people are going to be removed

1538
01:38:12,750 --> 01:38:15,550
from the earth at the beginning
of the Millennium, right?

1539
01:38:16,590 --> 01:38:21,070
Well, those are people who are
rooted in the in the the, the

1540
01:38:21,070 --> 01:38:24,590
drive for power gaining glory.
They're they're shame based,

1541
01:38:24,590 --> 01:38:28,030
they're guilt based.
They're they've got serious

1542
01:38:28,030 --> 01:38:31,110
pride issues, right?
Those are the people who destroy

1543
01:38:31,110 --> 01:38:34,110
societies.
Not not intentionally, just

1544
01:38:34,110 --> 01:38:36,550
because they're driven by those
motives.

1545
01:38:37,290 --> 01:38:41,290
They bring a society down until
it crumbles, that it's just the

1546
01:38:41,330 --> 01:38:43,450
cycle of history.
It just happens over and over

1547
01:38:43,450 --> 01:38:46,250
again.
So like I say, God's going to

1548
01:38:46,250 --> 01:38:48,370
cheat when he builds the New
Jerusalem because there won't be

1549
01:38:48,370 --> 01:38:55,410
any of those people around.
So I would love it if he would

1550
01:38:55,410 --> 01:38:59,610
reveal to us what the secret is
for identifying telestial,

1551
01:38:59,690 --> 01:39:01,530
motivated people.
I don't.

1552
01:39:01,810 --> 01:39:03,610
I don't have a clue.
I wish I knew.

1553
01:39:06,250 --> 01:39:11,370
According to an author he wrote
the book Power Versus Force.

1554
01:39:11,450 --> 01:39:14,330
It's quite a interesting book,
interesting read.

1555
01:39:14,850 --> 01:39:18,170
The author is a doctor but he
had a near death experience when

1556
01:39:18,170 --> 01:39:25,170
he was nine I believe or 11 and
he believes that humanity is on

1557
01:39:25,170 --> 01:39:29,410
a zero to 1000.
He he calls it enlightenment

1558
01:39:29,410 --> 01:39:32,050
scale.
I call it spirituality scale

1559
01:39:32,610 --> 01:39:36,480
from zero to 1000.
You know and Buddha and Jesus

1560
01:39:36,480 --> 01:39:41,720
are all over way towards the
1000 and but he says 70.

1561
01:39:42,040 --> 01:39:46,880
He's estimating 70 something
percent of mankind operate on

1562
01:39:46,880 --> 01:39:52,880
the lower end of that scale and
the best motivation they can

1563
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:55,280
come up with is pride.
You know I'm better than you

1564
01:39:55,280 --> 01:39:58,680
because I have more blank.
Whatever goes in that blank,

1565
01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:00,120
right?
That's pride.

1566
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:07,020
And so if 70. 7072% of the human
population are telestial people.

1567
01:40:08,060 --> 01:40:12,260
It's a challenge.
It's a challenge to find the

1568
01:40:12,260 --> 01:40:16,420
right people to build a
community like this, right?

1569
01:40:17,020 --> 01:40:20,140
Right.
And and I'm in charge of doing

1570
01:40:20,140 --> 01:40:22,460
that and it's a challenge.
I'll bet you it is.

1571
01:40:22,740 --> 01:40:25,580
I'll bet you it is.
You can only hope that you're,

1572
01:40:25,580 --> 01:40:28,580
you know, at least for me, I
know if I was in charge of

1573
01:40:28,580 --> 01:40:30,300
something like that, I'd be
like, oh, I hope.

1574
01:40:31,210 --> 01:40:33,770
I hope I'm in tune today.
Yeah, no kidding.

1575
01:40:34,050 --> 01:40:36,810
So no kidding.
Is there is there anything that

1576
01:40:36,810 --> 01:40:38,570
I missed?
Anything I that that you think

1577
01:40:38,570 --> 01:40:41,210
me or the listener should know
here before we wrap up?

1578
01:40:45,530 --> 01:40:50,290
Well, I guess it's important to
reiterate that yes, I I'm what I

1579
01:40:50,290 --> 01:40:52,770
call a Zionist with a T in
there.

1580
01:40:52,850 --> 01:40:58,370
Not a Zionist, but a Zionist.
I study Zion in order to

1581
01:40:58,370 --> 01:41:00,530
implement the principles of
Zion.

1582
01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:04,000
That's my whole focus.
So I'm a scientist.

1583
01:41:05,640 --> 01:41:10,200
Philip Gleason is not Riverbed
Ranch.

1584
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:13,560
You know Operation Suffer
Alliance, Cosler Cove in

1585
01:41:13,560 --> 01:41:16,400
Arizona, the next community
probably in Idaho.

1586
01:41:17,360 --> 01:41:21,000
That's not what that's not his
stated purpose.

1587
01:41:21,440 --> 01:41:25,560
He's trying to provide a pathway
for people to achieve, suffer,

1588
01:41:25,560 --> 01:41:29,480
alliance in a safe environment
where they can raise food and

1589
01:41:29,480 --> 01:41:32,960
raise kids on an
intergenerational basis.

1590
01:41:35,360 --> 01:41:41,400
So don't audience.
Don't assume that just because

1591
01:41:41,400 --> 01:41:45,440
I'm a scientist that this whole
project is about building Zion.

1592
01:41:46,120 --> 01:41:49,720
To me, it's just the best
possible thing I could be

1593
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:54,120
engaged in right now.
Fantastic as a stepping stone to

1594
01:41:54,120 --> 01:41:56,640
where I want to be.
Absolutely awesome.

1595
01:41:57,240 --> 01:41:59,600
All right, man.
If someone wants to get your

1596
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:01,360
book, where Where can they go to
find that?

1597
01:42:01,800 --> 01:42:05,000
Amazon.
Just search for champions for

1598
01:42:05,000 --> 01:42:10,000
Zion or Jesse Fisher and Zion.
I also just wrote a book.

1599
01:42:10,000 --> 01:42:14,240
Now, this might be of interest.
It's an ebook. 87 pages might be

1600
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:17,520
of interest to your audience.
Not everybody can afford to do

1601
01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:21,200
what we're doing.
So I wrote an ebook with gobs of

1602
01:42:21,200 --> 01:42:25,360
ideas and it's called Your
Matrix Exit Plan.

1603
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:29,460
So in other words, the ebook is
to help you create your exit

1604
01:42:29,460 --> 01:42:33,900
plan to get out of the Matrix.
It goes through all sorts of

1605
01:42:36,020 --> 01:42:42,140
ideas and opportunities to to
extract yourself from Babylon

1606
01:42:42,140 --> 01:42:44,300
from the matrix of dependency, I
call it.

1607
01:42:45,140 --> 01:42:48,340
And that's at
matrixexitplan.com.

1608
01:42:49,860 --> 01:42:54,420
And then if anyone wanted to
reach out and find out about

1609
01:42:54,420 --> 01:42:56,180
Riverbed Ranch, how do they do
that?

1610
01:42:57,100 --> 01:43:03,100
Well, I'd probably go to
riverbed-ranch.com and there's a

1611
01:43:03,100 --> 01:43:06,580
couple of videos there on on the
menu, There's the video tab.

1612
01:43:06,580 --> 01:43:10,940
Click on that, Watch the the I
label it there.

1613
01:43:10,940 --> 01:43:13,620
The back story video, that's
Phillips Story.

1614
01:43:14,100 --> 01:43:16,980
And then he leads into the
Academy of self-reliance, which

1615
01:43:16,980 --> 01:43:20,740
is our educational nonprofit.
And then he talks about Riverbed

1616
01:43:20,740 --> 01:43:24,220
Ranch, the same principles
applied to Arizona and our

1617
01:43:24,220 --> 01:43:27,520
future towns, the other three
that we end up building.

1618
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:32,440
So I definitely watched that
video 1st and they can contact

1619
01:43:32,440 --> 01:43:34,760
me through the website.
Perfect.

1620
01:43:35,320 --> 01:43:38,560
Dude, you're the man.
We've gone over 2 hours now and

1621
01:43:38,560 --> 01:43:40,640
you're you're awesome.
I appreciate it.

1622
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:43,640
Do me a favor, Can can we have
another conversation maybe

1623
01:43:43,640 --> 01:43:48,800
either about the other book or
the Sulfur Alliance program and

1624
01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:52,800
and maybe even just.
Keep us up to breast on how the

1625
01:43:52,840 --> 01:43:54,360
how that community is coming
along.

1626
01:43:54,480 --> 01:43:56,760
I want to keep tabs.
On this.

1627
01:43:57,240 --> 01:43:59,280
All right, man.
Hey, I really appreciate you

1628
01:43:59,280 --> 01:44:01,920
coming on.
Yeah, it was fun.

1629
01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:04,520
Hang out for just a second.
Bye everybody.

1630
01:44:26,550 --> 01:44:29,150
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.