Episode #87: Exploring The Branches Of Fundamentalism Series The LeBarons & The Church Of The First Born Part 2

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On this episode, the podcast I
have Jacob Badrine back on as we

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wrap up our two-part episode on
The Church of the First Born and

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the Lebarons.
We continue our conversation on

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Alma Dire, Lebaron, the
Succession of his Birthright,

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the ministry of Ross Lebaron and
Fred Collier.

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We then dive into the unique
teachings, doctrines, and

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theology of Lebaronism and wrap
up this two-part episode with

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talking about the future of
Lebaronism.

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That's next on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse to become and
raise men and women of virtue

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and characters, a Herculean
task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com, go to the

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bottom of the page, search out
the blog post, and order your

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copy.
Today I can bear personal

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testimony from personal
experience that this is an

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invaluable tool to help you
raise men and women of virtue

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and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
All.

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Right man.
Welcome back.

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It's good to be back.
All right.

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So real quick, just want to kind
of recap.

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What we did in in episode one of
this or part one of this this

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episode.
So we talked a little bit about

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you how you got into
fundamentalism, all that stuff.

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And then we went ahead and we
kind of start diving into the

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Council of 50 and that sort of
stuff because that weighs really

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heavily on on in in Lebaron
theology if you will and and and

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and you know line validation and
Priested line validation and

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those sorts of things.
And then from there we kind of

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got into who Benjamin F Johnson
was and then we start talking

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about you know what what the
claims were as far as you know

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the Benjamin F Johnson got his
his second and only teams from

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Joseph Smith.
He was Joseph Smith's adoptive

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son.
Then we rolled into the the

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claims on how the claims of of
being the.

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The rightful heir to Joseph
Smith was where where Benjamin F

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Johnson's third sister was
proposed to by Joseph Smith.

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She was already engaged to
somebody.

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She rejected him.
And then from there she kind of

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had a change of heart and the
whole family kind of considered.

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I believe it's Alma Dyer Lebaron
as the the rightful heir of

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Joseph Smith And then?
We start talking about Alma just

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a little bit and that's where we
kind of left off.

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So why don't you pick it up from
there?

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That's a pretty great summary of
everything.

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You know, that was several hours
of conversation condensed into,

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you know, those two hours of
conversation condensed into two

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minutes.
So I think that was pretty

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great.
We, yeah, definitely, we started

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off talking.
We left off talking about Alma

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Dera Lebaron.
He was given a special blessing

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when he was about 10 years old
by Benjamin F Johnson that that

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he considered to be appointing
him the the birthright of Joseph

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Smith.
What's interesting is I've gone

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to Nabu Temple birthright
blessings that were given in the

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Nabu temple, and the language of
Johnson's blessing to Darren

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1895 is very similar to what was
given in the appointing the

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birthrights.
In the Nabu temple, when

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different families were
appointing family birthrights at

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that time.
So there's parents were

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encouraged to go to Mexico 10
years after the manifesto and

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enter into polygamy.
They unfortunately weren't able

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to.
But that seemed to be a big part

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of, you know, the culture at the
time was if you are a hardcore

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Mormon who's wanting to continue
to live plural marriage and you

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want to kind of still try to be.
Somewhat support sustaining the

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manifesto.
You're going to be trying to do

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your plural marriage in Mexico.
So Dare's parents weren't able

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to live plural marriage.
They attempted to, but it kind

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of fell through.
But Dare was able to get to

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interact with some of those post
Manifesto polygamous in Mexico

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and he got to know John W Taylor
while he was down in Mexico.

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And I believe that he paint
actually painted one of John W

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Taylor's homes in Mexico.
And he said that Bender F

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Johnson encouraged him that you
will, you should eventually move

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down to Mexico so that you can
keep alive these higher

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principles of the gospel.
Because, you know, the United

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States has been so strongly
against these principles.

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So you know, you did great,
great job recapping the Lebaron

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family history.
The the real claims of the

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family are that Dare's
grandfather.

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On his mother's side, Benjamin F
Johnson was you know sealed to

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Joseph Smith as a son that
there's grandmother on his

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father's side, Esther Johnson
Lebaron was sealed to Joseph

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Smith as a wife that she was
kind of intended to be Joseph

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Smith's wife and eternity she
rejected him in NABU.

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But some later time the Lebaron
family believes that she was

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later sealed to Joseph as a
plural wife.

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So.
Can can I stop you right there?

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Because.
I think this is kind of

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important that that that we
cover this cuz I I want to make

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sure that that we're we're
getting all the facts here.

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It says the family considered
that she had at some point been

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sealed to him.
Do we have any of those records

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anywhere?
We don't have those records and

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we don't have the records of
Johnson being sealed to Joseph

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Smith as an adopted son.
But I do think that a lot of

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these ceiling records that were
done in early Utah are still

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like, I feel like people haven't
really scratched the surface of

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say the not the Saint George
Temple ceiling records that

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have, you know, we have all the
Nabu Temple records.

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They've been published in a
volume called the NABU Endowment

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Companies, a 600 page book that
details every single ordinance

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that was done in the Nabu
Temple.

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But we don't really have those
for.

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Utah with you know Saint George
Temple in down house.

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We've had pieces that have been
made available but not a whole

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lot.
But one thing that I do think is

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very significant is that we do
have a record of Esther Johnson

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Lebaron standing in the place of
to her sisters as proxies,

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having these sisters that had
died also be sealed to Joseph

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Smith.
We we have the record of her

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standing as proxy with Joseph F
Smith standing as proxy for

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Joseph Smith.
So she was acting basically as a

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proxy wife for Joseph Smith that
that makes sense, having

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additional family members sealed
as wives to Joseph Smith.

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Yeah, no, that makes that makes
perfect sense.

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Because those records that
they're they're to to go back to

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what you were saying, a lot of
those records are either still

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walked up in church vault
somewhere or maybe were even

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purged at some point.
Is that correct?

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Yeah, that's how I that's how I
feel about it.

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One interesting story is Dare
said that when he was about 24

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years old close neighbor who was
a close friend of Benjamin F

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Johnson, Charles Sellers gave
him a box of Benjam Johnson's.

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Special papers that had all
these very important novel

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related documents.
Letter A letter by Joseph Smith,

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the Ben Jeff Johnson.
The letter Johnson wrote to the

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first Presidency of of in 1903.
The Gibbs letter as it's called.

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And we had all these papers and
we have multiple sources about

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and getting Johnson's like
special papers.

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And but dare almost lost them.
On one occasion he said that if

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they were in a suitcase they
were they were traveling or

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something and he had them in a
suitcase and he almost he left

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on the bus and his brother
recalled the police kind of

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bringing this you know basically
saying this suitcase belongs to

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your brother he you know he left
it on this bus and it's

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important papers and so dare
apparently after having that

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experience he turned this this.
This collection of papers from

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Ben Drip Johnson over to the
Church Archive Archives for

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safekeeping and unfortunately,
the Church Archive safekeeping

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isn't as safe as you would like
it to be.

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Those papers have never been
found.

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The only paper we still have
from that collection is the

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Gibbs letter.
We we still have.

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It's because Dared Dared made
copies of the Gibbs letter and

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it's been passed that preserved
down to the family and then also

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the original.
You know, the original of that

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has been catalogued in the
archives, but the rest of it

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has, you know, hasn't been
found.

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And so you have the same issue
with, like the 1886 revelation,

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you know, supposedly being, you
know, that we know that it was

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donated in the church archives,
but we don't know where exactly

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the original, you know,
handwritten copy and John

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Taylor's handwriting ever ended
up.

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And you know, there's different
things where, you know, the

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church isn't always forthright
when it comes to documents,

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right?
So, so dare you know, he, he

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spent a lot of his time growing
up close to Bender F Johnson and

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getting instruction by Bender F
Johnson.

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He said that.
I mean, it's about 18 years of

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age that Bender F Johnson
conferred upon him the authority

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that he held.
And, you know, the family has

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characterized that as the
scepter, Priested Scepter or

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Priested Mantle.
There would often call it the

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keys.
He received the keys of the

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Kingdom that that Johnson held
the key.

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And then later on, shortly
before Johnson's death, Johnson

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told him that when I die, my
mantle will fall upon you as the

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mantle of Elijah fell on Elijah.
So that was very important to

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Dare's priesthood claims.
Is this experience getting close

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to Ben, Jeff Johnson and you
know, receiving some?

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Increased authority from him
shortly before Johnson's death.

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Real quick, I I got a question
for you.

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So because there there was a
prophecy made by Joseph Smith

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that his his children would
would continue to be the kind of

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head up the church, right?
Why didn't Johnson make a bigger

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push?
If he was the rightful heir,

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right?
Because he was the first adopted

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son of Joseph Smith, right?
The Lebarian family has the

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tradition that they've had
several people that they say

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told them that there were
records that show he was sealed

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as a first born son to Smith.
I'm not sure if that is.

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I'm I haven't.
As I said, we don't have those

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records.
I think what's very clear is

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this idea that Johnson had been
sealed as a son to Joseph Smith.

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I'm not sure if Johnson was the
first born son.

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And part of the way I look at
this is that the family kind of

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looked at Dare's claims with
wonder, and they probably were

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wondering how exactly Dare was
in a how how Johnson was in a

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position to appoint their father
to a special priest at office or

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priest some sort of presiding
priest and authority of some

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sort.
So the question.

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You know, right, right.
The question comes up in their

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minds.
You know, how did Johnson have

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the authority to do this?
Did Johnson himself secretly

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have some sort of special
status?

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But I do think that when I've
studied the historical sources

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on the Lebaron story, it just
seems to be that Johnson was one

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of the members of the Council of
50 who had received, you know,

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all the priests of keys through,
you know, the ordinances.

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And that he had get been given a
special Commission by Joseph

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Smith, that if he was led to
pass things on to others, he

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wouldn't be led wrong in doing
that.

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So, for example, one person
recalled that that dare said

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that he claims his grandfather
was the last one ordained to the

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keys of the Kingdom, and by
Joseph Smith, and that his

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grandfather conferred that upon
him one of the one.

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Sorry I'm I'm having a hard time
following this and and I'm I I

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just want to get to the bomb of
this because I I think when you

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00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:38,380
start talking about birthright
claims this gets super

228
00:13:38,380 --> 00:13:42,140
important.
So if if if Benjamin F Johnson

229
00:13:42,740 --> 00:13:47,260
is Joseph Smith's first adoptive
son, his other sons don't come

230
00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:49,820
to Utah, right.
They I mean they come to Utah.

231
00:13:49,820 --> 00:13:53,340
One figures out, oh crap, my dad
really was a polygamous.

232
00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:57,870
He goes kind of crazy.
Because.

233
00:13:57,910 --> 00:14:00,430
Because he finds that out.
Because he figures out his his

234
00:14:00,430 --> 00:14:02,550
mom, Emma Hale Smith, had lied
to him.

235
00:14:03,630 --> 00:14:09,110
That would naturally put
Benjamin F Johnson in line to be

236
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:10,590
the guy that heads up the
church.

237
00:14:10,710 --> 00:14:13,310
Not Brigham Young.
Not John Taylor.

238
00:14:13,790 --> 00:14:18,670
Why doesn't why doesn't Johnson
make the claim during that time?

239
00:14:18,670 --> 00:14:20,590
Hey, this is this is my birth
right now.

240
00:14:20,630 --> 00:14:23,190
I am the first adoptive son of
Joseph Smith.

241
00:14:23,750 --> 00:14:28,110
There doesn't seem contention to
that until Alma Dale de la Baron

242
00:14:28,110 --> 00:14:30,150
comes along right.
Yeah.

243
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:32,790
And I I don't, like I said, I
feel like the family might have,

244
00:14:33,190 --> 00:14:36,190
you know, came up with the idea
of and being the first born

245
00:14:36,430 --> 00:14:38,710
sealed as the first born son.
I'm not quite sure that's

246
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:40,870
historical.
I do think that the early

247
00:14:40,870 --> 00:14:44,270
traditions that Johnson, like
many others, have been adopted

248
00:14:44,270 --> 00:14:48,630
to Joseph Smith as sons and the
original family claim that I see

249
00:14:48,630 --> 00:14:51,990
is that Johnson.
Was, quote, the last living

250
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:55,190
member of the original council
of friends to whom the Prophet

251
00:14:55,190 --> 00:14:58,270
Joseph Smith gave priests
authority and placed at the head

252
00:14:58,270 --> 00:15:00,910
of the King of God.
So Johnson wasn't claiming to

253
00:15:01,230 --> 00:15:03,270
preside over Brigham Young.
He wasn't claiming to be

254
00:15:03,270 --> 00:15:05,150
secretly the one presiding over
everyone.

255
00:15:05,310 --> 00:15:08,630
He just claimed to be one of
those guys who had received the

256
00:15:08,750 --> 00:15:12,710
full authority and who was one
of the he was the last living

257
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:16,750
person who who had been part of
the original council of 15.

258
00:15:16,750 --> 00:15:19,940
So that's.
That all ties into the side this

259
00:15:19,940 --> 00:15:23,380
claim that you know, this belief
that Johnson may have the

260
00:15:23,380 --> 00:15:26,860
Johnson believe that he had the
authority to appoint or pass on

261
00:15:26,860 --> 00:15:29,620
special authority to his
grandson.

262
00:15:30,660 --> 00:15:33,420
Right and and and Priest.
The keys in authority.

263
00:15:33,420 --> 00:15:36,660
I I don't really have an issue
with it's it's this idea of a

264
00:15:36,660 --> 00:15:39,980
birthright right and and I'm
trying to figure out how much

265
00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:42,020
legitimacy.
Is there.

266
00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:44,620
And so I I just want to make it
as clear as I can.

267
00:15:44,620 --> 00:15:47,340
I'm not trying to push back and
I'm not trying to to dispute you

268
00:15:47,340 --> 00:15:49,020
here.
You're a great historian and I

269
00:15:49,060 --> 00:15:52,100
and I wanted to defer to you on
that, but I I kind of want to

270
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:54,860
get to the bottom of it.
So if Johnson doesn't press

271
00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:59,900
press and say, hey, I'm the guy
that has all the keys and I'm

272
00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:03,100
the one that is supposed to have
this birthright to to lead up

273
00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:05,900
the church.
Why does Why does Alma Day or

274
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:08,850
Lebaron?
Make that claim when Benjamin F

275
00:16:08,850 --> 00:16:11,570
Johnson doesn't.
When Johnson is closer to the,

276
00:16:12,370 --> 00:16:15,730
to the, to the found right, to
the to the headwaters, so to

277
00:16:15,730 --> 00:16:20,250
speak.
So I I again, I think Johnson

278
00:16:20,250 --> 00:16:24,810
was claiming some sort of unique
presiding status as one of the

279
00:16:24,810 --> 00:16:27,450
last living members of the
Council of 50.

280
00:16:27,810 --> 00:16:30,810
That's kind of how I see that
there may have been some sort of

281
00:16:30,810 --> 00:16:34,730
claim and that's not until
after, say, Brigham Young, John

282
00:16:34,730 --> 00:16:37,640
Taylor.
All those original guys have

283
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,320
passed away.
Then Johnson, I think is looking

284
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,120
at things and seeing the
trajectory of where the church

285
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,200
is going.
And in the Gibbs letter, he kind

286
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,000
of admit he he mentions very
briefly that the church was kind

287
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,640
of changing its doctrines.
He said that, you know, the

288
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,920
doctrine of exaltation being
this family Kingdom of having

289
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,000
wives, children and friends
still to you, and that you know,

290
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,280
the parable of the talents
representing, you know,

291
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,160
multiplying your talents.
And Joseph applied that to

292
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,310
polygamy, right?
And he said that those items of

293
00:17:07,310 --> 00:17:09,990
doctrine were now being
differently construed.

294
00:17:10,310 --> 00:17:13,589
So Johnson was seeing that the
church was changing things and

295
00:17:13,589 --> 00:17:18,990
that he he knew that the that
the Council of 50 had been kind

296
00:17:18,990 --> 00:17:24,710
of it had it really became
defunct after after Joseph

297
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:26,790
Smith's death.
And what's interesting is in the

298
00:17:26,790 --> 00:17:30,270
Gibbs letter, he actually
briefly alludes to having done

299
00:17:30,270 --> 00:17:34,470
something to perpetuate that
would eventually perpetuate.

300
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,800
The Kingdom of God on the earth,
it's it's very and it's a very

301
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,440
good letter.
I think anyone who's interested

302
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:46,600
in church history should check
it out, he said.

303
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,600
The Kingdom of God is it would
become organized on the earth

304
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,120
through all nations, learning
more no more, and all adopting

305
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,600
the God-given constitution of
the United States as a Palladium

306
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,240
of liberty and equal rights.
But this itself would require a

307
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,120
long chapter which must wait
until the fulfillment of a

308
00:18:03,120 --> 00:18:06,160
prediction by the Prophet
relating to test a testimony

309
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,000
that I should bear after I
become hoary with age of things,

310
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,640
which he that day taught a
circle of friends then around

311
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,440
him, of whom I am the only one
living.

312
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,920
So here I will believe this
subject for your further

313
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,880
interrogation, and proceed to
give you, so far as I remember,

314
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,400
the Prophet Joseph Smith's last
charge.

315
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,600
So he kind of is alluding there.
Well, I've done something.

316
00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:30,570
To secretly perpetuate the
Kingdom of God.

317
00:18:31,050 --> 00:18:33,610
I will leave this subject for
your further interrogations.

318
00:18:33,610 --> 00:18:36,770
And now I'm going to move over
to talking about the last charge

319
00:18:37,090 --> 00:18:40,210
so that, you know, it's just
kind of a interesting statement

320
00:18:40,210 --> 00:18:44,730
that seems to, in my mind,
validate this idea that Johnson

321
00:18:44,730 --> 00:18:47,930
had done something secret and
significant to perpetuate the

322
00:18:47,930 --> 00:18:51,850
Kingdom, if that makes sense.
Yeah, I think.

323
00:18:51,850 --> 00:18:55,220
I think that covers it.
So it it it's less about the

324
00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:59,580
birthright and more about being
the the last one to to have the

325
00:19:00,860 --> 00:19:05,780
the keys and kind of given to
him through the Council of 50,

326
00:19:05,780 --> 00:19:08,060
is that right?
Yeah.

327
00:19:08,060 --> 00:19:11,460
And he's by having the keys, he
has the authority, if you were

328
00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:15,380
so led by revelation of the and
the Holy Spirit to appoint the

329
00:19:15,380 --> 00:19:19,100
birthright.
And we kind of see that in.

330
00:19:20,130 --> 00:19:23,650
Heber C Kimball was trying to
raise up a son to Joseph Smith

331
00:19:23,730 --> 00:19:26,730
with Sarah and Whitney
repeatedly trying to have a son

332
00:19:26,730 --> 00:19:30,530
named David.
Unfortunately, you know, he had

333
00:19:30,530 --> 00:19:33,410
one son, David, who died.
Yet they had another son named

334
00:19:33,410 --> 00:19:35,570
David who died.
They had a third son, but that

335
00:19:35,570 --> 00:19:40,410
son didn't ever live to come
forward to lead the Kingdom.

336
00:19:40,410 --> 00:19:43,370
So you have these ideas, You
know, it's not in a vacuum.

337
00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:46,490
This is something that there
were other people who were.

338
00:19:46,860 --> 00:19:49,740
You know, close to Joseph Smith
entertaining these kinds of

339
00:19:49,740 --> 00:19:51,740
ideas.
So dare.

340
00:19:52,220 --> 00:19:55,900
I think that that answers it,
and again, I wasn't trying to to

341
00:19:55,900 --> 00:19:58,300
be argumentative, I was just
trying to understand there.

342
00:19:59,740 --> 00:20:03,260
But, but what is kind of really
unique about Dare's claim is he

343
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:06,660
has his claim, but he's
generally very private about it.

344
00:20:06,660 --> 00:20:10,260
He's saying that it's not going
to be for a long time that this

345
00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:12,060
work is going to start.
He's looked.

346
00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:17,230
He's ordained by Johnson.
About 1903 to you know that to

347
00:20:17,230 --> 00:20:19,310
carry on the priesthood that
Johnson held.

348
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:22,110
But then he's told that it's not
he.

349
00:20:22,110 --> 00:20:25,670
He believes it's not until about
1950 is when the times of the

350
00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:28,750
Gentiles is fulfilled and the
times of Israel's is ushered in

351
00:20:29,030 --> 00:20:32,950
that that's when he would his
priesthood work would really

352
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:34,910
start.
And so that's really unique.

353
00:20:34,910 --> 00:20:38,350
And he's generally pretty
secretive about his, you know,

354
00:20:38,350 --> 00:20:40,350
and protective about his
priesthood claim.

355
00:20:40,670 --> 00:20:44,270
But there are some good kind of
hostile witnesses, I would say

356
00:20:44,270 --> 00:20:49,230
people who aren't believers in
his claim but are who are either

357
00:20:49,230 --> 00:20:53,350
family or a friend from going
way back who confirmed that

358
00:20:53,430 --> 00:20:57,510
these claims go back very early.
There's Brother Conway.

359
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,400
He was a mainstream member of
the church's whole life.

360
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,520
Remember that There was a
special blessing that Derek was

361
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,240
given by Benja F Johnson, You
know that to preside over his

362
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,760
family.
And that blessing has been,

363
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,320
quote, a very sore spot for the
Benjamin F Johnson family.

364
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:18,880
And similarly, in 1910,
Margarita Bautista, who would,

365
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,280
you know, become involved with
Mormon fundamentalism in a very

366
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,520
big way.
He was friends with DARE, and he

367
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,120
said that he had discussed
Dare's claims as early as 1910

368
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,280
in Mesa, AZ.
So they were, you know, so, So

369
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,800
these weren't something things
that were coming decades later

370
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,960
or developed over time.
These were things that had been

371
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,960
around for quite a while.
So one thing that's interesting

372
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,800
is, you know, there's belief
from Benjamin F Johnson that he

373
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,760
should try to establish his life
and his family in Mexico.

374
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,910
That was a big part of of dares
beliefs, and I think that kind

375
00:21:55,910 --> 00:21:59,910
of is an outgrowth of what was
going on with post man, with the

376
00:22:00,190 --> 00:22:03,830
plural marriage being persecuted
in the 1880s and then the post

377
00:22:03,830 --> 00:22:07,190
manifesto polygamy.
But even as early as Brigham

378
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:09,790
Young, when Brigham Young was
still alive, I believe in the

379
00:22:09,790 --> 00:22:12,390
1860s, he wrote a letter where
he said he'd hoped that the

380
00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:15,510
settlements of the Saints in the
Rocky Mountains would actually

381
00:22:15,510 --> 00:22:21,960
extend up into extend up into
Canada, extend down NS into

382
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,840
Mexico, and all the way down
into Central America.

383
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,320
So there was this idea of the
settlements of the Saints kind

384
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,960
of going southward.
And about the 1890s, there

385
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,000
starts to be a prophecy of
Joseph Smith that's being

386
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,680
recalled by different
individuals like Mosiah Hancock,

387
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,760
where they're recalling that
there might be another exodus

388
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,880
where the Saints from the Rocky
Mountains would have to go South

389
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,240
before returning to Jackson
County.

390
00:22:48,750 --> 00:22:52,110
So there were these kinds of
ideas that were floating around

391
00:22:52,110 --> 00:22:55,870
Mormonism at the time, and and
Johnson's and Dare said that

392
00:22:55,870 --> 00:23:01,190
Johnson had really pushed the
importance of these kinds of

393
00:23:01,190 --> 00:23:06,030
ideas to him.
So DARE, in 1911 married a young

394
00:23:06,030 --> 00:23:10,630
woman named Maude McDonald.
Maude said she was actually

395
00:23:10,630 --> 00:23:15,110
dating a different young man who
and she turned him down because

396
00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:17,390
he said he hoped to God that
plural marriage wouldn't be

397
00:23:17,390 --> 00:23:19,640
restored to the church in his
lifetime.

398
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,600
The family tradition is that
that man would be was future

399
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,120
Mormon president Spencer W
Kimball.

400
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:30,080
So Spencer W Kimball had a
interesting fundamentalist

401
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:31,640
connection in two different
ways.

402
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:36,120
He had been he would been
courting Maude, who would end up

403
00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:38,320
becoming the Le Baron family
matriarch.

404
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,920
And he also had a connection
that Spencer the W and Spencer W

405
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,760
Kimball spent stands for Woolly.
He was related to the woolly,

406
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,880
so.
So we had a fundamentalist

407
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,840
connection on two different
sides.

408
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,120
And what's interesting is when
historian Fred Collier started

409
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:58,640
getting into fundamentalism and
learning about fundamentalist

410
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,440
claims, he went to Spencer W
Kimball and asked him about the

411
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,120
1886 revelation.
And Spencer W Kimball told him

412
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,520
it's a true revelation, but the
Woolies had no right to publish

413
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,440
it.
So he confirmed the legitimacy

414
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:19,460
of the 1886 revelation to him.
That's probably yeah, yeah,

415
00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:20,220
once.
Once.

416
00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:24,140
That's something.
What's funny is I there was a

417
00:24:24,140 --> 00:24:31,100
conversation between a church
scholar and apostle Marky

418
00:24:31,100 --> 00:24:34,660
Peterson wants about Adam God.
And the scholar was saying we

419
00:24:34,660 --> 00:24:38,340
need to just admit that Brigham
Young taught Adam God, but we

420
00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:40,420
should just say it was just his
own opinion.

421
00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:44,260
And Marky Pearson said, oh, no,
no, no, we can't do that.

422
00:24:44,700 --> 00:24:47,460
It would just send thousands of
people over to the

423
00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:51,220
fundamentalist.
So, you know, the the church,

424
00:24:51,220 --> 00:24:55,420
you know, I think has to play a
very fine line between telling

425
00:24:55,420 --> 00:24:58,900
the truth about the history, you
know, and, you know, trying not

426
00:24:58,900 --> 00:25:01,020
to send people over to the
fundamentals.

427
00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:03,540
Because if people get too much
history, you know, they'll

428
00:25:03,540 --> 00:25:06,420
they'll see that, you know, the
history heavily favors

429
00:25:06,420 --> 00:25:10,220
fundamentalism, so.
Mod into a corner with the

430
00:25:10,220 --> 00:25:11,620
facts.
Does that to you, huh?

431
00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:17,050
Yeah so so Mod was all like
there was growing up during the

432
00:25:17,050 --> 00:25:21,730
post manifesto time period and
she said that in 1909 when she's

433
00:25:21,770 --> 00:25:24,610
attending I think at church
school at the time she was

434
00:25:24,610 --> 00:25:29,810
taught by both BH Roberts and
John Henry Evans about the

435
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:33,890
importance of plural marriage as
higher law And all the students

436
00:25:33,930 --> 00:25:37,810
at in the church education still
as late as 19/09 were being

437
00:25:37,810 --> 00:25:40,210
taught that plural marriage was
a higher law.

438
00:25:41,770 --> 00:25:44,730
And so she she was firmly
convinced that it was a true

439
00:25:44,730 --> 00:25:46,770
doctrine.
And what she said what's

440
00:25:46,770 --> 00:25:50,050
interesting is she would later
learned from Nathan Clark that

441
00:25:50,050 --> 00:25:54,290
John Henry and Evans was a
secret post manifesto chloral

442
00:25:54,770 --> 00:25:58,570
polygamist that he had been
married secretly to two of

443
00:25:58,570 --> 00:26:02,370
Nathan Clark's nieces.
So he's one of the head guys

444
00:26:02,370 --> 00:26:06,730
over the church education in the
early 1900s and wrote a pretty

445
00:26:06,730 --> 00:26:10,850
famous biography of Joseph Smith
and he was secretly involved

446
00:26:10,850 --> 00:26:15,370
with post manifesto polygamy
gained to Nathan Clark.

447
00:26:15,370 --> 00:26:18,170
So Nathan Clark is, since I
mentioned his name he's a very

448
00:26:18,170 --> 00:26:21,330
interesting guy and he kind of
is close friends with the

449
00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:23,850
Lebarons and so his name when
you study Lebaron history comes

450
00:26:23,850 --> 00:26:27,970
up quite a bit.
He was Nathan Clark was ordained

451
00:26:27,970 --> 00:26:32,650
at the same time Joseph W Muster
was in the in the Joseph F

452
00:26:32,650 --> 00:26:36,660
Smith's presidency to perpetuate
plural marriage according to

453
00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:39,220
both Price Johnson and Ruin
Allred.

454
00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:42,460
So Price Johnson's getting it
from Nathan Clark, Ruin Allred's

455
00:26:42,460 --> 00:26:46,660
getting it from Musser and Price
Johnson said it was Joseph F

456
00:26:46,660 --> 00:26:50,380
Smith and John W Woolley who are
the ones who laid their hands on

457
00:26:50,940 --> 00:26:54,220
Joseph Musser and Nathan Clark's
head and ordained them to

458
00:26:54,220 --> 00:26:57,900
perpetuate floral marriage.
So and Nathan Clark comes up

459
00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:02,620
even earlier during the trial of
the trials of Matthias Cowley

460
00:27:02,620 --> 00:27:06,290
and John W Taylor's being
somebody who's the the apostles

461
00:27:06,290 --> 00:27:08,450
who are trying to stamp out pro
marriage are like we don't

462
00:27:08,450 --> 00:27:11,650
really like this guy you know we
he's he's an unsafe guy and you

463
00:27:11,650 --> 00:27:16,010
shouldn't be keeping company
with them because they they knew

464
00:27:16,010 --> 00:27:18,570
that he was involved with the
post manifesto polygamy.

465
00:27:19,010 --> 00:27:23,890
So Darren and Maude moved down
to Mexico shortly after getting

466
00:27:23,890 --> 00:27:26,370
married.
And it's in Mexico.

467
00:27:26,370 --> 00:27:28,050
I I believe it's in the year
1911.

468
00:27:28,890 --> 00:27:32,970
And that Nathan Clark actually
comes down to Mexico from with a

469
00:27:32,970 --> 00:27:36,100
message from Joseph F Smith that
he said he was given

470
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,940
instructions to find Benji F
Johnson's error and to bring him

471
00:27:39,940 --> 00:27:43,180
a copy of the marriage ceiling
ceremony with instructions to

472
00:27:43,180 --> 00:27:49,020
help keep plural marriage alive.
And so there's sons tell the

473
00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:52,020
story.
This is what one of the sons

474
00:27:52,020 --> 00:27:53,260
said.
He said he told us that years

475
00:27:53,260 --> 00:27:55,660
and years before Nathan Clark
came to visit him in Mexico,

476
00:27:55,660 --> 00:27:58,660
having been sent by President
Joseph F Smith, he took my

477
00:27:58,860 --> 00:28:01,580
father a copy of the priest of
marriage ceiling ceremony and

478
00:28:01,580 --> 00:28:04,180
told him that President Smith
was calling upon him to help

479
00:28:04,180 --> 00:28:06,900
keep plural marriage alive.
He said to my father, dare you

480
00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:09,620
have plenty of authority to
perform these feelings in in the

481
00:28:09,620 --> 00:28:12,540
marriage covenant and we would
like you to help keep this

482
00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:16,260
principle moving forward,
forward and Dare's wife Maude

483
00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:20,060
actually says she was standing
on in their present when this

484
00:28:20,060 --> 00:28:23,140
conversation happened.
She said I was standing on the

485
00:28:23,140 --> 00:28:26,140
ditch bank and caught Colonial
Juarez when Nathan Clark brought

486
00:28:26,140 --> 00:28:28,940
a copy of the temple marriage
ceremony and handed it to DARE

487
00:28:29,060 --> 00:28:32,420
saying Joseph F Smith sent it to
him asking to help keep plural

488
00:28:32,420 --> 00:28:34,900
marriage alive in the earth as
long as he lived, but not to

489
00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:37,580
perform any ceilings without the
spirit.

490
00:28:38,140 --> 00:28:41,900
So shortly after that, the next
in the next year or two, there

491
00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:44,900
was the Mexican Revolution.
So lots of the Saints who were

492
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:47,660
living in the colonies in Mexico
had to go back to the United

493
00:28:47,660 --> 00:28:50,580
States and Darren Maude were
with them.

494
00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:52,260
And Darren really regretted
that.

495
00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:56,260
And he was he, he was, you know,
unsettled about having to live

496
00:28:56,260 --> 00:28:58,980
in the United States again.
And he actually had said he had

497
00:28:58,980 --> 00:29:03,700
100 year vision that was showing
him that things in Mexico would

498
00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:07,740
be getting better within the
next 100 years and that things

499
00:29:07,740 --> 00:29:10,820
in the United States would
actually be deteriorating over

500
00:29:10,820 --> 00:29:13,020
the next 100 years.
And so that vision and

501
00:29:13,020 --> 00:29:16,260
experience kind of led him to
really think that he needed to

502
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:19,850
eventually get his family back
into Mexico.

503
00:29:20,210 --> 00:29:22,810
So after leaving Mexico and
coming back to the United

504
00:29:22,810 --> 00:29:26,250
States, they were living in Salt
Lake City for a while and they

505
00:29:26,250 --> 00:29:29,930
actually got to stay briefly
with John W Taylor in his home.

506
00:29:30,770 --> 00:29:35,050
Mod recalled that Taylor's very
fascinatingly had temple symbols

507
00:29:35,170 --> 00:29:39,450
incorporated throughout the
artwork, the decoration of their

508
00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:44,170
home, and there this absolutely
beautiful gardens around their

509
00:29:44,170 --> 00:29:46,770
properties.
And while staying there, John W

510
00:29:46,770 --> 00:29:51,830
Taylor told Share about the
context of the 1886 revelations

511
00:29:52,150 --> 00:29:56,230
and cold and and arranged to
help him get a copy of the Four

512
00:29:56,230 --> 00:29:59,350
Hidden Revelations so that he
would have those, you know,

513
00:29:59,910 --> 00:30:01,550
early fundamentals kind of
treated.

514
00:30:01,550 --> 00:30:05,110
The Four Hidden Revelations is
actually pretty sacred.

515
00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:08,030
Interestingly enough.
Like, there's one story I recall

516
00:30:08,030 --> 00:30:11,030
of a fundamentalist who's like,
I've got something sacred to

517
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,120
tell you about And the other
guys like, well, what is it?

518
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,000
I can't really tell you until we
go somewhere, you know, in a

519
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,280
more private place to discuss
sacred matters and the

520
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:24,200
fundamentals kind of took him up
into a mount and to show him the

521
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,120
four hidden revelations.
That's kind of how sacred and

522
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,880
and significant they they
treated those revelations at

523
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,560
that time.
You know, the 1880 revelation,

524
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,680
the 1882 revelation, the 1886
revelation, 1889 revelation, all

525
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,560
about the necessity of the
church continuing plural

526
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,040
marriage and warning about, you
know, not giving into

527
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,200
concessions, you know, because
this is a celestial law.

528
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,240
So in the early 1920s, there
began to have questions about

529
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,600
plural marriage, likely due to
the LDS church's increase being

530
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,480
hardline position against it
under Heber J.

531
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:01,920
Grant.
You know, under Joseph F Smith

532
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,080
the church was still very, you
know, friendly to it.

533
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,120
And Joseph Smith was appointing
tons of different people to be

534
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,020
continuing plural marriage.
According to one guy, there are

535
00:31:11,020 --> 00:31:14,660
patriarchs set apart in every
stake of the church to see to it

536
00:31:14,660 --> 00:31:17,060
that plural marriage would
continue so.

537
00:31:17,620 --> 00:31:20,860
They they actually went out of
their way to set up special

538
00:31:20,860 --> 00:31:23,660
stakes almost right.
Like if I remember correctly

539
00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:27,940
from a previous conversation,
the Yale ward and Yale stake

540
00:31:28,300 --> 00:31:33,540
were we're kind of a safe haven,
if you will, for a lot of these

541
00:31:33,540 --> 00:31:36,190
gentlemen and and.
Yeah, the patriarchs were

542
00:31:36,190 --> 00:31:41,470
instructed and it's it's
fascinating to see this time of

543
00:31:41,470 --> 00:31:45,350
church history just how much
disconnect is happening, right.

544
00:31:46,190 --> 00:31:51,310
Because you have, you have
Joseph F Smith who is who is

545
00:31:51,990 --> 00:31:55,830
keeping that alive.
Like when he was famous for, you

546
00:31:55,830 --> 00:31:57,950
know, people coming to him
saying we want to enter into

547
00:31:57,950 --> 00:32:01,230
this practice and what would
happen is that he'd say, well,

548
00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:03,590
if someone can, if you can find
someone with the authority, God

549
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:06,450
bless you.
And then there'd be a mysterious

550
00:32:06,450 --> 00:32:09,610
knock on the door and like, hey,
you got an appointment at 7:00

551
00:32:09,610 --> 00:32:11,410
down at the temple, you got to
get to there.

552
00:32:11,890 --> 00:32:17,250
So in in just a little while,
you know, and one more president

553
00:32:17,250 --> 00:32:20,170
down the road.
It's a completely different ball

554
00:32:20,170 --> 00:32:22,370
game.
Yeah.

555
00:32:22,930 --> 00:32:26,260
So.
So Dare was having kind of, I

556
00:32:26,260 --> 00:32:28,500
think, you know, troubles in his
mind about what was going on

557
00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:31,420
with plural marriage.
And so he prayed for his

558
00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:34,140
grandfather, Ben Dr. F Johnson,
to give him further light and

559
00:32:34,140 --> 00:32:37,140
instruction regarding this and
the course that you should take.

560
00:32:37,460 --> 00:32:39,820
And he said that one night, and
this is sometime in the early

561
00:32:39,820 --> 00:32:42,340
1920s.
I believe it's about the time

562
00:32:42,340 --> 00:32:45,420
he's considering entering into
plural marriage personally.

563
00:32:46,140 --> 00:32:51,390
He was given this vision of Ben.
Dr. F Johnson, he said so.

564
00:32:51,390 --> 00:32:53,230
This is the account that one of
his sons gives.

565
00:32:53,230 --> 00:32:55,630
He says during this period
Father's mind was filled with

566
00:32:55,630 --> 00:32:57,190
turmoil.
What was he to do?

567
00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:59,430
Could a man not live plural
marriage and still obtain a

568
00:32:59,430 --> 00:33:02,350
crown in the Celestial Worlds?
The question weighed mightily

569
00:33:02,350 --> 00:33:04,590
upon him.
Father had again petitioned the

570
00:33:04,590 --> 00:33:06,470
Lord to know what was required
sleep.

571
00:33:07,110 --> 00:33:08,510
Sleep came and he rested
soundly.

572
00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:11,590
Suddenly a firm hand gripped him
by the shoulder and the familiar

573
00:33:11,590 --> 00:33:15,040
voice saying dare dare my son
wake up, and as he sat up in bed

574
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,160
he realized it was his
grandfather's voice.

575
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,920
Before his eyes Father beheld a
vision which extended beyond the

576
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,480
wall of the room.
They're seated comfortably on a

577
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,400
beautiful throne was his
grandfather, Benjamin F Johnson,

578
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,520
clothed in a white in the white
robes of the priesthood and his

579
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,080
right hand he had a scepter of
gold which rested his feet and

580
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:35,480
extended above his head.
A crown with 7 shining stars was

581
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,720
upon his head.
The beauty of it all exceeded

582
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,120
everything, anything Father had
ever seen.

583
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,680
He understood that the scepter
represented his priest authority

584
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,080
his grandfather had held in
during his life.

585
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,400
The jewels in his crown
represented his seven wives.

586
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,680
His father gazed upon this
glorious vision.

587
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,760
He heard a penetrating voice out
of the heavens, the voice of

588
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,200
God.
He it said, This shall be your

589
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,200
destiny also, also if you abide
my law.

590
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,400
Grandfather Johnson instructed
Father concerning the law and

591
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,000
order of the priesthood and told
him what his duties were.

592
00:34:05,300 --> 00:34:07,100
No longer was there any doubt in
his mind.

593
00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:09,420
The course of his life became
unalterably fixed.

594
00:34:09,620 --> 00:34:12,020
He did not turn back.
Whatever he be called to face,

595
00:34:12,020 --> 00:34:14,300
he felt ready.
He accepted the law of plural

596
00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:16,540
marriage.
And he now knew for himself.

597
00:34:16,739 --> 00:34:19,540
And this experience became very
significant to Darren.

598
00:34:19,540 --> 00:34:23,260
He would be, he would share it
with other family members who

599
00:34:23,380 --> 00:34:26,100
who would question him on the
rightfulness of plural marriage.

600
00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:28,420
Continuing, he would share this
experience he had with them.

601
00:34:28,699 --> 00:34:31,900
So what's interesting is around
this time, Matthias Cowley.

602
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:35,560
This is the early 1920s.
Matthias Cowley is giving him

603
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,480
some subtle encouragement to do
it also.

604
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,320
And after Derek married his
plural wife, his dad, Benjamin F

605
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,320
Lebarron, was kind of concerned
about it because, you know, the

606
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,320
church leaders were, you know,
turned against it.

607
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,199
But then he said that Matthias
Cowley and his dad visited and

608
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:57,160
had a conversation and his dad
dropped all resistance to him

609
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:58,880
being involved with plural
marriage.

610
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:03,180
And you can, you can see the
evidence of this is that his dad

611
00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:07,420
shortly after he marries his
plural wife, gives him, gives

612
00:35:07,420 --> 00:35:10,500
him a patriarchal blessing and
basically says you and your

613
00:35:10,500 --> 00:35:14,540
companions will receive a
fullness of blessings in the

614
00:35:14,540 --> 00:35:17,500
temple of God.
So it's kind of blessing him and

615
00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:20,420
his companion showing that he
recognized you know that he was

616
00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:23,340
legitimate and entering into his
his plural marriage.

617
00:35:23,740 --> 00:35:27,650
So in the Burke and Utah, Dare
met and married his plural wife

618
00:35:27,650 --> 00:35:30,250
Tony Jones.
She said that her mother

619
00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:33,130
appeared to her and counselled
her to marry Dare, so that

620
00:35:33,130 --> 00:35:35,930
experience really strengthened
her to enter into plural

621
00:35:35,930 --> 00:35:38,050
marriage.
They were married by Joseph W

622
00:35:38,050 --> 00:35:43,490
Musser on December 7th, 1923 in
the same room where the 1886

623
00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:47,010
revelation was received.
And so Alma Dare and his wife

624
00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:50,170
Maude were excommunicated from
the church on February 17th,

625
00:35:50,170 --> 00:35:55,640
1924 for quote, violative
conduct, which you know was in

626
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,840
short for entering into plural
marriage.

627
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,040
What's what's funny is one thing
I'd noticed in part of the

628
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,480
family history is that they they
threatened to execute

629
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,360
communicate only Jones for it as
well.

630
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,600
And they said we're we're going
to have a trial and you're

631
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,680
invited to come to the trial And
she says you can cut me off for

632
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,160
all you want, but I'm not
attending your damn trial.

633
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,080
You know, she she kind of gave
it to them and and they said

634
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,880
okay fine we weren't going
because she said she wouldn't

635
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:22,820
attend the trial.
They just you know kind of

636
00:36:22,820 --> 00:36:26,220
dropped the matter with her and
I don't believe she was

637
00:36:26,220 --> 00:36:28,380
excommunicated as far as I am
aware.

638
00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:32,860
So the family moved, so, so the
family moved down to Mexico and

639
00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:36,420
established their lives there.
They were initially on pretty

640
00:36:36,420 --> 00:36:39,540
friendly terms with the local
LDS Church members down there

641
00:36:39,820 --> 00:36:42,980
because there were so many
polygamists in the colonies that

642
00:36:42,980 --> 00:36:46,980
were left out, left over from
those post manifesto days from,

643
00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:51,690
you know, 1900 to even after
1904 for a couple years they

644
00:36:51,690 --> 00:36:57,290
were still doing it on the sly.
But apparently there were some

645
00:36:57,290 --> 00:36:59,770
who were like, you know, he's in
violation of the law.

646
00:36:59,770 --> 00:37:03,730
They were excommunicated for it.
And so eventually those wanting

647
00:37:03,730 --> 00:37:07,730
to ostracize the family one out
and that social ostracism you

648
00:37:07,730 --> 00:37:11,600
know living in a foreign country
and the people who share your

649
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,960
culture and share your language
and heritage are not really

650
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:16,880
wanting to be associated with
you.

651
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:21,160
That was very difficult on the
family and especially the the

652
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:25,160
children living down in Mexico
but they did make a few friends

653
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,760
down there.
One fun story is that there was

654
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,240
another individual they said it
we call them the best script

655
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:35,960
Orian in the in the stake his
his name was Tom Jones and he

656
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:39,200
was sent to kind of talk with
their about theirs beliefs and

657
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:45,330
try to quote convince him to to
repent of his ways and dare kind

658
00:37:45,330 --> 00:37:50,530
of shares with him the four
hidden revelations and Tom Jones

659
00:37:50,650 --> 00:37:54,570
you know kind of comparing the
the 1890 manifesto to whom it

660
00:37:54,570 --> 00:37:58,330
way of concern versus these four
revelations that say thus save

661
00:37:58,330 --> 00:38:00,930
the Lord.
He was converted to plural

662
00:38:00,930 --> 00:38:04,730
marriage and he ended up
entering into polygamy as well

663
00:38:04,730 --> 00:38:07,210
and was another kind of
independent polygamist down

664
00:38:07,210 --> 00:38:10,460
there in the Mexican colonies.
And so the Joneses and the

665
00:38:10,540 --> 00:38:14,460
lebarons were were good friends
during that that time period

666
00:38:15,180 --> 00:38:18,780
Derek tried to convince other
fundamentalists to move down to

667
00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:20,500
Mexico.
You when he was doing work up in

668
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:23,780
the United States, he was, he
was on, he was on good friendly

669
00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:26,140
terms with a lot of other
fundamentalists and he tried to

670
00:38:26,140 --> 00:38:30,340
convince them to come down, but
most of them, you know, ended

671
00:38:30,340 --> 00:38:33,620
up, you know, I think living
plural marriage is hard enough.

672
00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:36,540
Trying to live plural marriage
in a completely different

673
00:38:36,540 --> 00:38:41,650
foreign country without any real
community support, I think that

674
00:38:41,810 --> 00:38:46,130
is even, you know, even way more
difficult.

675
00:38:46,650 --> 00:38:49,290
So Darryl was friends with other
fundamentalists.

676
00:38:50,290 --> 00:38:54,410
We mentioned Nathan Clark before
Nathan Clark would be someone

677
00:38:54,410 --> 00:38:58,650
who was ordained by Joseph F
Smith to keep plural marriage

678
00:38:58,650 --> 00:39:00,090
alive.
And he never really joined any

679
00:39:00,090 --> 00:39:01,770
group.
He just kind of became he was

680
00:39:01,770 --> 00:39:05,560
more of an independent sealer.
He was there was friends with

681
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,200
Francis Darter daughter wrote
that he and there were close

682
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,240
friends for many years.
Carl Jets.

683
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,120
I listened to an interview that
was done with him in the 1980s

684
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:20,080
and Carl I had talked about how
he invited Darren to come stay

685
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,560
with him when they was up in the
United States and he said there

686
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,720
was.
He said Darrell was trying to

687
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:27,400
talk him into the how great
Mexico would be.

688
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,240
So there's lots of land down
there.

689
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:31,650
There's servants.
You know, it's cheap.

690
00:39:31,730 --> 00:39:34,530
You know, it's, you know,
there's a lot going to waste

691
00:39:34,530 --> 00:39:36,130
down there.
And and he said he made it sound

692
00:39:36,130 --> 00:39:38,010
really good.
He said he made it sound really

693
00:39:38,010 --> 00:39:39,570
good.
And I was really close to doing

694
00:39:39,570 --> 00:39:42,730
it.
But he said that he kind of felt

695
00:39:42,890 --> 00:39:46,450
he had a revelation telling him
to stick in the United States

696
00:39:46,450 --> 00:39:50,530
and to not really follow after
any other authority claim.

697
00:39:51,130 --> 00:39:53,290
So what's another interesting
story?

698
00:39:53,290 --> 00:39:56,450
And this is from the I believe
either the late 1930s or the

699
00:39:56,450 --> 00:40:00,170
early 1940s, is one of Dare's
younger sons.

700
00:40:01,490 --> 00:40:06,010
The Alma Deir Le Baron Jr.
recalled an experience with John

701
00:40:06,010 --> 00:40:09,370
Y Barlow.
So a lot of the Le Baron boys,

702
00:40:09,370 --> 00:40:11,930
when they would come up to the
United States, they got to be

703
00:40:11,930 --> 00:40:14,410
associated with the other
fundamentalists and they were on

704
00:40:14,450 --> 00:40:16,450
very friendly terms with the
other fundamentalists.

705
00:40:16,690 --> 00:40:20,170
And so Alma Deir Le Baron Jr.
kind of talked about this

706
00:40:20,170 --> 00:40:24,040
experience with John Y Barlow.
He said, I went to John Y

707
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,040
Barlow.
I got his home number, I think,

708
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:27,240
out of his phone book or
somewhere.

709
00:40:27,240 --> 00:40:29,200
And when I went to his home and
knocked on the door and went in

710
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,360
and introduced myself, he
immediately drew down the

711
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,240
curtains.
I had a nice talk with John Y

712
00:40:33,240 --> 00:40:35,560
Barlow.
I told him that I would like him

713
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,200
to give me special counsel of
whether I should really go into

714
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,960
the mission field or not.
I believed in the fundamentalist

715
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,720
doctrines at that time more than
I did in the Mormon leaders.

716
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,160
And he counseled me strongly to
go into the mission field and do

717
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,480
what good I could and be really
careful.

718
00:40:49,890 --> 00:40:52,690
I asked him if he would confer
the Malkesic priest on me before

719
00:40:52,690 --> 00:40:55,410
I left, because I didn't know
for sure if I had it properly

720
00:40:55,410 --> 00:40:59,130
conferred i.e. in the LDS
Church, and I wanted to make

721
00:40:59,130 --> 00:41:02,570
sure it was done properly.
He said, well, I recommend you

722
00:41:02,570 --> 00:41:06,490
go get your father to confer the
Malkesic Priested on you.

723
00:41:07,010 --> 00:41:10,010
And I said, well, I don't have
too much confidence in my

724
00:41:10,010 --> 00:41:12,570
father.
We had really had a lot of

725
00:41:12,570 --> 00:41:14,890
troubles in our family.
I heard a lot of lies and

726
00:41:14,890 --> 00:41:17,370
slander against my father by my
mother and by the Mormon

727
00:41:17,370 --> 00:41:19,410
leaders.
And he told me, and he, John

728
00:41:19,410 --> 00:41:22,450
White Barlow told me, in spite
of the family problems and the

729
00:41:22,450 --> 00:41:25,410
lack of confidence in your
father, he said your father is a

730
00:41:25,410 --> 00:41:28,450
good, honorable man and he
deserves to have the first right

731
00:41:28,450 --> 00:41:30,010
to confirm the priesthood on
you.

732
00:41:30,250 --> 00:41:32,610
And he said, you go to your
father and see if he'll confer

733
00:41:32,610 --> 00:41:35,290
the priesthood on you.
He said, If he refuses to do it,

734
00:41:35,290 --> 00:41:37,330
come back to me and I'll do it,
he said.

735
00:41:37,330 --> 00:41:39,810
But wait until you've been set
apart for the mission field and

736
00:41:39,810 --> 00:41:41,970
all ready to leave.
Then come and I'll confer the

737
00:41:41,970 --> 00:41:44,240
priest on you.
A few days later, I met my

738
00:41:44,240 --> 00:41:45,680
father.
He came to my hotel room.

739
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,440
I told him that I would like him
to convert the Melchezic priest

740
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,520
on me, and he just about cried.
He immediately laid his hands on

741
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,760
my head and convert upon me the
Melchezic Priested so dare in

742
00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,360
the 1930s, ordained he had.
His oldest son's name was

743
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,640
Benjamin and he really was kind
of expecting his oldest son to

744
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,240
kind of be his successor, to
carry on his work.

745
00:42:09,210 --> 00:42:11,570
You know, he said this work was
starting until 1950.

746
00:42:11,570 --> 00:42:13,770
He's going to be an old man by
1950.

747
00:42:13,770 --> 00:42:16,210
So he knew from the beginning
that he would that this work

748
00:42:16,210 --> 00:42:19,690
would be carried on by his sons
rather than being something that

749
00:42:19,730 --> 00:42:24,570
only he would do.
So he in, I believe it's 1932 or

750
00:42:24,610 --> 00:42:28,410
1933 ordained his oldest son
Benjamin to the keys that he

751
00:42:28,410 --> 00:42:31,490
held.
And but unfortunately two years

752
00:42:31,490 --> 00:42:35,620
later, Ben went crazy.
He started claiming to be the

753
00:42:35,620 --> 00:42:37,740
one mighty and strong and he
really had some mental

754
00:42:37,740 --> 00:42:40,900
breakdowns.
You know, one of the more famous

755
00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:44,100
stories is that he could prove
wanting to prove that he's the

756
00:42:44,100 --> 00:42:46,620
one mighty and strong.
He wanted to do pushups in the

757
00:42:46,620 --> 00:42:48,540
middle of an intersection in
Salt Lake City.

758
00:42:48,540 --> 00:42:51,700
You know, he's planning on doing
200 pushups and stopping traffic

759
00:42:52,140 --> 00:42:55,500
to do that, which is, you know,
a unique way to to to go about

760
00:42:55,780 --> 00:43:00,600
proving that sort of claim.
But because of the mental demise

761
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,800
of his oldest son, there was
very cautious about teaching his

762
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,280
younger children, about his
beliefs and about his authority

763
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,840
claims.
And so that's why I can I just.

764
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,720
Say something right here about
the One Mighty and strong.

765
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,480
Look, I have my beliefs on who
it is.

766
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,800
It's no one here today.
Let's just get that out of the

767
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,640
way right now.
But.

768
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,760
When it comes to the One mighty
and strong, I feel like if you

769
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,960
have to tell me you're the One
mighty and strong, you're

770
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:31,840
probably not the one mighty and
strong.

771
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,120
I'm just going to say I I I
think that should be

772
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,040
self-evident.
Yeah it it's kind of getting.

773
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,760
There's so many people who get
caught up in titles and what

774
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,760
title is someone claiming?
And for me, I personally

775
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,600
resonate a lot more with this,
with the revelation that Ross

776
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,320
Lebaron, who was the 2nd oldest
son of their he said he received

777
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,990
in 1950, basically saying don't
ask your dad to appoint you the

778
00:43:56,990 --> 00:43:59,630
birthright.
He said the honor is in the

779
00:43:59,630 --> 00:44:02,070
work, not the title.
Yeah.

780
00:44:02,070 --> 00:44:04,390
And he said go ahead and ask
your father for permission to

781
00:44:04,390 --> 00:44:08,710
carry on the work in your stead.
And so I I resonate a whole lot

782
00:44:08,710 --> 00:44:12,110
more with the honor is in the
work not what titles you're

783
00:44:12,110 --> 00:44:17,750
claiming.
So after the 1944 raids on the

784
00:44:17,750 --> 00:44:20,950
fundamentals community, there
was a lot of concern about

785
00:44:21,260 --> 00:44:23,940
staying in the United States and
whether the they would get

786
00:44:23,940 --> 00:44:28,540
thrown back into prison.
And their dare actually came up

787
00:44:28,620 --> 00:44:31,940
to the United States and kind of
recommended that.

788
00:44:32,140 --> 00:44:34,500
You know, it might be a good
idea for you guys to get

789
00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:37,780
established in Mexico,
especially all of you people,

790
00:44:37,780 --> 00:44:39,900
you know, the fundamentalist
leaders with young family and

791
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:42,460
with children.
Because, you know, part of the,

792
00:44:43,700 --> 00:44:48,570
the agreement to get out of
prison was that they wouldn't be

793
00:44:48,610 --> 00:44:51,330
teaching or continuing to be
living poor marriage.

794
00:44:51,570 --> 00:44:53,930
But obviously they weren't going
to put their wives away and they

795
00:44:53,930 --> 00:44:56,770
were going to continue to teach
the fullness of the gospel.

796
00:44:57,050 --> 00:44:59,690
And so there was this
encouragement to to go down to

797
00:44:59,690 --> 00:45:01,650
Mexico.
And John White Barlow got on it

798
00:45:01,690 --> 00:45:05,370
and he encouraged ruling Almond
and several other of the of the

799
00:45:05,370 --> 00:45:09,290
brethren to go down in Mexico
and dare invited them initially

800
00:45:09,290 --> 00:45:11,890
to come, you know, live and
settle on his land.

801
00:45:12,130 --> 00:45:15,490
But seems there was some sort
of, you know, either

802
00:45:15,570 --> 00:45:20,410
miscommunication or dispute over
authority that eventually led to

803
00:45:20,410 --> 00:45:23,250
them basically designed to
abandon this Mexico mission,

804
00:45:24,370 --> 00:45:28,250
according to the different
members of the Lebaron family

805
00:45:28,250 --> 00:45:30,850
who who told the story.
They said that they were kind of

806
00:45:31,290 --> 00:45:35,730
saying we won't stay down here
unless you consecrate to John

807
00:45:35,730 --> 00:45:38,570
White and become part of John
White Barlow's United order.

808
00:45:38,850 --> 00:45:41,130
And Derek kind of was like, this
is my land.

809
00:45:41,130 --> 00:45:44,090
You know, I'm not going to kind
of they're, they're kind of

810
00:45:44,090 --> 00:45:47,810
saying we as the priest of
council have authority over you.

811
00:45:47,810 --> 00:45:50,850
And Derek kind of had an
attitude that this is my land.

812
00:45:50,850 --> 00:45:53,930
And they basically said, well,
if you don't feed this land over

813
00:45:53,930 --> 00:45:55,250
to us, then we're going to
leave.

814
00:45:55,570 --> 00:45:57,850
And Derek, I said, well, then
you're going to unfortunately

815
00:45:57,850 --> 00:46:01,010
have to leave then.
So it was a very brief stay and

816
00:46:01,010 --> 00:46:04,010
that was kind of probably the
first real conflict and

817
00:46:04,010 --> 00:46:08,210
authority between the, you know,
different the Lebaron family and

818
00:46:08,210 --> 00:46:11,710
the woolly factions.
But I still don't think it was a

819
00:46:11,710 --> 00:46:14,990
very big issue because even
after that DARE was still on

820
00:46:14,990 --> 00:46:18,630
pretty good terms with most,
with with most of the other

821
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:22,390
fundamentalist leaders.
So as evidence of this, there's

822
00:46:22,990 --> 00:46:25,110
one of their sons, Florin
recalled.

823
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:30,470
I believe this is about the year
1949 or 1950 that dare had him

824
00:46:30,590 --> 00:46:33,870
take him to, to see all these
different fundamentalist

825
00:46:33,870 --> 00:46:36,390
leaders.
And this was he's recalling this

826
00:46:36,390 --> 00:46:40,510
in an interview with with
several different individuals in

827
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,240
1994.
And the person interviewing

828
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:45,440
asked, do you want to talk about
who brought who you brought your

829
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,800
father to right now?
And Florence said he took me to

830
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:53,120
see Nathan Clark, Charles W
Kingston, Joseph Musser and and

831
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,480
brother John White Barlow.
And so he probably it might have

832
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,440
been earlier in the 1940s if it
was if Barlow was there.

833
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,600
He said those are the four men
he wanted me to see with Nathan

834
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,920
Clark and Charles W Kingston.
He said, I especially want you

835
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,190
to meet those men.
So then the interviewer asked

836
00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:11,070
who was he closest to?
Do you feel?

837
00:47:11,230 --> 00:47:14,030
And then he said, well, brother
Muster, he says.

838
00:47:14,030 --> 00:47:16,910
Do you think he might have told
muster about his calling, that

839
00:47:16,910 --> 00:47:19,990
he held up the birthright?
And Florence said, I think

840
00:47:19,990 --> 00:47:23,350
brother Muster and my father I
they would sit there and they

841
00:47:23,350 --> 00:47:25,230
talked.
And there was no friction

842
00:47:25,230 --> 00:47:26,910
whatsoever between those two
men.

843
00:47:27,150 --> 00:47:29,670
I marveled at it now because of
all the problems.

844
00:47:29,670 --> 00:47:32,990
Now that these two men got
together and there was perfect

845
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:36,350
army, I think they perfectly
understood what each other held.

846
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,240
And so and.
Let let me ask you this because

847
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:43,240
I think this is going to play a
little bit too and I I think

848
00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:50,720
this will tell a lot about the
relationships, right You have,

849
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,920
you have Musser and Lebaron
talking together.

850
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:04,120
So is the assertion that Musser
understood that that that

851
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,840
Lebaron held?
This birthright and did

852
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,800
therefore did that make in in
your estimation, does that mean

853
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:18,800
that that muster understood that
he had maybe a I don't want to

854
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:23,280
say lesser, but I I don't know
how else to put it kind of a

855
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,120
subservient position to lebaron
on this.

856
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,400
So that's a great question.
I'm glad you asked me to clarify

857
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,280
it.
So I I don't think that I don't

858
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,480
think that dare thought muster
was above him.

859
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,760
I don't think that muster
thought dare was above him.

860
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,880
I think they both kind of
there's a mutual respect for the

861
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,760
different authority lines.
I think you know muster

862
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,480
respectively kind of believed
that he by the, you know late

863
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,360
1940s was the guy who presided
over the priesthood.

864
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,880
But he also kind of looked at
the Lebaron line with probably

865
00:48:55,880 --> 00:49:00,610
wonders, as a friend of mine put
it, and and probably respect

866
00:49:00,610 --> 00:49:02,850
that there were these other
lines, that valid lines of

867
00:49:02,850 --> 00:49:05,370
authority that were passed on
after the church.

868
00:49:06,570 --> 00:49:09,130
You know, when the church
abandoned pro merits that there

869
00:49:09,130 --> 00:49:11,090
were all these other lines that
were going on.

870
00:49:11,610 --> 00:49:16,130
And so this is kind of evident
in another statement by Alma de

871
00:49:16,130 --> 00:49:19,130
le Baron Junior.
He said that he and his brothers

872
00:49:19,130 --> 00:49:22,670
were had doubts about their
father's claims on the authority

873
00:49:22,670 --> 00:49:24,230
question.
So they actually, and this is

874
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:28,270
again in the late 1940s, we
wrote to Joseph W Muster and

875
00:49:28,270 --> 00:49:30,950
asked him, does our father have
authority to steal wives to us?

876
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:32,950
Brother Muster wrote and
answered.

877
00:49:32,950 --> 00:49:35,070
Your father does have authority
to seal wives to you.

878
00:49:35,430 --> 00:49:38,430
I saw the letter and Muster's
signature with my own eyes.

879
00:49:38,790 --> 00:49:41,190
So again I don't think that
muster believed that he was

880
00:49:41,190 --> 00:49:43,830
subservient to dare but I
believe that he might have

881
00:49:44,150 --> 00:49:47,930
recognized the that there could
have been validity to dares

882
00:49:48,090 --> 00:49:51,490
lineage and claims that
authority was being passed down

883
00:49:51,810 --> 00:49:55,570
that lineage as well.
And as an impartial kind of

884
00:49:55,570 --> 00:49:59,690
witness to this Bob EB was a guy
who is in Musser school of the

885
00:49:59,690 --> 00:50:02,690
prophets and he later joined up
with Ross Lebaron.

886
00:50:02,690 --> 00:50:06,210
But then he later kind of he
kind of became disaffected with

887
00:50:06,210 --> 00:50:09,610
Ross and kind of was his own
kind of independent witness to

888
00:50:09,610 --> 00:50:13,130
fundamentalist history.
And Bob EB kind of test told

889
00:50:13,130 --> 00:50:17,420
people that, yeah, Musser was on
pretty decent friendly terms

890
00:50:17,420 --> 00:50:21,140
with the Le Barons from what he
remembered in the, you know,

891
00:50:21,460 --> 00:50:25,220
early 1950s that, you know, end
of Musser's lifetime period.

892
00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:30,500
So this is kind of also evident
in another one of the Le Baron

893
00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:34,820
family stories that was passed
down is that is that they said

894
00:50:34,820 --> 00:50:38,980
that Musser and Dere were
visiting in March of 1950 and

895
00:50:38,980 --> 00:50:42,740
that Musser actually personally
gave Derek copy of the marriage

896
00:50:43,100 --> 00:50:45,500
ceiling ceremony with his own
signature on it.

897
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:49,920
You know, basically kind of as a
sign of mutual respect is kind

898
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,480
of the way that that I would
characterize it.

899
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,720
And I I do think that muster
probably looked at the Lebaron

900
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:57,920
claims with wonder, you know,
maybe a little bit of

901
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,960
skepticism, but probably with a
little bit of wonder as well, if

902
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,160
that makes sense.
So.

903
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,400
So it's not so much who's above
who, it's okay.

904
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,320
They have authority as well,
right?

905
00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:13,320
Not a higher authority, not a
lower authority, just authority

906
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:14,880
as well.
Is that a correct?

907
00:51:15,330 --> 00:51:18,570
Summarization there of that.
Yeah, that's that's, that's how

908
00:51:18,570 --> 00:51:20,930
I think that that muster
probably looked at it.

909
00:51:21,570 --> 00:51:25,890
So there during the end of his
life, you know, 1950, he's

910
00:51:25,930 --> 00:51:30,610
getting, he's in his 60s at that
time and he's getting, you know,

911
00:51:30,610 --> 00:51:33,530
there's some concerns by, you
know, about appointing A

912
00:51:33,530 --> 00:51:37,010
successor.
You know, he tried to, he tried

913
00:51:37,010 --> 00:51:39,690
to prepare his oldest son to be
a successor, but his oldest son

914
00:51:39,690 --> 00:51:44,020
went crazy.
Their second oldest son, Ross,

915
00:51:44,020 --> 00:51:48,900
was really the only other child
of there that was really

916
00:51:49,180 --> 00:51:52,940
converted and really interested
in his father's unique

917
00:51:53,380 --> 00:51:56,780
priesthood claims and beliefs.
And Ross said that this kind of

918
00:51:56,780 --> 00:51:59,820
happened because.
So he said he was studying from

919
00:52:00,180 --> 00:52:03,020
in the 1930s.
He was really associating with

920
00:52:03,020 --> 00:52:07,980
the the the Woollyite Council
and you know, being on friendly

921
00:52:07,980 --> 00:52:10,820
terms with the Woollyites.
They said that he entered in, he

922
00:52:10,820 --> 00:52:14,950
tried to enter into plural
marriage and he got, he actually

923
00:52:14,950 --> 00:52:17,310
got incarcerated with the other
fundamentalists in the early

924
00:52:17,310 --> 00:52:20,350
1940s over attempting to live
plural marriage.

925
00:52:20,350 --> 00:52:23,350
He was incarcerated on, quote,
conspiracy charges, you know,

926
00:52:23,390 --> 00:52:25,310
conspiracy to try to live plural
marriage.

927
00:52:25,830 --> 00:52:30,830
And he said that it was when he
was in in prison or earned jail

928
00:52:30,830 --> 00:52:35,910
that he had a vision that kind
of manifests to him that both

929
00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:39,070
the woolly line and the Le Baron
line had validity.

930
00:52:39,070 --> 00:52:42,010
This vision kind of confirmed to
him and his father's claims.

931
00:52:42,010 --> 00:52:44,850
They believe that the Woolies
were kind of operating under the

932
00:52:44,850 --> 00:52:48,370
claims of having hiring special
keys and authority.

933
00:52:48,730 --> 00:52:52,050
And you can see that from John
Woolley and Muster.

934
00:52:52,050 --> 00:52:55,170
Both each John Woolley, Lauren
Woolley and Muster kind of

935
00:52:55,170 --> 00:52:59,090
claimed that the patriarchal
keys were passed down to the

936
00:52:59,090 --> 00:53:04,350
Woolies and their into their
line and and Ross believed that

937
00:53:04,350 --> 00:53:06,670
this vision confirmed to him
that his his family was

938
00:53:06,670 --> 00:53:09,430
operating under Joseph's keys.
So there was high arms keys

939
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:12,750
doing their work and Joseph's
keys were doing their work.

940
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:18,430
So in March of 1950 Ross is
visiting with his father and he

941
00:53:18,990 --> 00:53:20,830
asked his father for a
patriarchal blessing.

942
00:53:20,830 --> 00:53:23,870
His father gives him a blessing,
and after the blessing ordains

943
00:53:23,870 --> 00:53:27,550
him to all the keys, rights and
authority of the patriarchal

944
00:53:27,550 --> 00:53:29,970
priest said.
And this was kind of and some

945
00:53:29,970 --> 00:53:32,610
people might, this might raise
your eyebrow, some people's

946
00:53:32,610 --> 00:53:34,890
eyebrows, like what does that
even mean?

947
00:53:35,290 --> 00:53:38,130
And Ross understood that this
was basically his father

948
00:53:38,130 --> 00:53:41,490
conferring upon him, the priest
of keys restored in the Kirtland

949
00:53:41,490 --> 00:53:44,810
temple basically outside of the
ordinances.

950
00:53:44,810 --> 00:53:48,290
That was a big part of Ross's
teachings was that keys can

951
00:53:48,290 --> 00:53:51,930
really actually be conferred
outside of the ordinances, and

952
00:53:51,930 --> 00:53:54,570
that they can keys or wherever
they are placed.

953
00:53:55,010 --> 00:53:57,650
And you kind of see this going
back to early Mormonism there.

954
00:53:57,650 --> 00:54:00,410
There's some people who think
that you can only receive the

955
00:54:00,410 --> 00:54:05,170
priesthood keys to do temple
ordinances through receiving,

956
00:54:05,290 --> 00:54:09,370
like the second anointing.
But from my study of early

957
00:54:09,370 --> 00:54:12,050
church history, it seems that
the brother and believed you

958
00:54:12,050 --> 00:54:16,170
could ordain someone to all the
keys outside of the temple

959
00:54:16,170 --> 00:54:19,410
ordinances.
And this is one example of this

960
00:54:19,690 --> 00:54:22,410
or two examples of this from
Wilford Woodruff's journal.

961
00:54:23,260 --> 00:54:27,380
And on October 8th, 9th, 1851,
when Heber C Kimble's ordaining

962
00:54:27,380 --> 00:54:33,060
a man to be a traveling Bishop,
it says that the he was ordained

963
00:54:33,060 --> 00:54:36,900
under the hands of Heber C
Kimble, John and John Smith, and

964
00:54:36,900 --> 00:54:40,140
George A Smith and Heber C
Kimble sealed upon his head all

965
00:54:40,140 --> 00:54:44,500
the keys of the priesthood.
And so similarly, in October

966
00:54:44,660 --> 00:54:48,780
27th of 1880, Wilfred Woodruff
wrote in his journal when

967
00:54:48,780 --> 00:54:51,980
they're ordaining John Henry
Smith to be an apostle.

968
00:54:52,470 --> 00:54:55,310
And he gives the wording of the
ordination he says in the name

969
00:54:55,310 --> 00:54:57,470
of the Lord Jesus Christ and by
the authority of the holy

970
00:54:57,470 --> 00:55:00,430
priesthood and apostleship
conferred upon us when we lay

971
00:55:00,430 --> 00:55:03,110
our hands on your head and we
ordain you an apostle in the

972
00:55:03,110 --> 00:55:06,030
Church of Jesus Christ, larity,
Saints, and as a member of the

973
00:55:06,030 --> 00:55:09,910
Quorum of the 12 Apostles, And
we steal upon you all the power

974
00:55:09,910 --> 00:55:13,630
and authority to administer and
all the ordinances of the House

975
00:55:13,630 --> 00:55:15,870
of God.
And so this kind of idea that

976
00:55:15,870 --> 00:55:19,030
you can confer the keys to do
the ordinances outside of the

977
00:55:19,030 --> 00:55:22,940
ordinances is something that I
see evident in early Utah

978
00:55:22,940 --> 00:55:25,900
Mormonism.
And it's something that I I see

979
00:55:26,180 --> 00:55:29,820
up to two, I believe the 1940s
or 1950s, where presidents of

980
00:55:29,820 --> 00:55:33,460
the church at times would set
people apart to delegate, you

981
00:55:33,460 --> 00:55:36,180
know, to do whole different
temple keys, if that makes

982
00:55:36,180 --> 00:55:39,300
sense.
I I I think I see where you're

983
00:55:39,300 --> 00:55:42,260
going there.
My issue would be this is that

984
00:55:44,460 --> 00:55:48,420
two things.
One is you don't get to baptize

985
00:55:48,420 --> 00:55:51,660
somebody else till you've been
baptized yourself, right?

986
00:55:54,100 --> 00:55:58,580
Well, you you, I, I think that
Rosa Smith and Oliver Calgary

987
00:55:58,580 --> 00:56:02,740
kind of showed that you can, you
know, so for example, you know,

988
00:56:02,740 --> 00:56:07,500
they have the keys and then
Oliver baptized Joseph and then

989
00:56:07,500 --> 00:56:10,820
Joseph baptizes Oliver, right.
And that's kind of how you kind

990
00:56:10,820 --> 00:56:13,180
of see that in a number of of
circumstances.

991
00:56:13,180 --> 00:56:17,380
For example, when Joseph and
Hiram, so when the second

992
00:56:17,380 --> 00:56:21,580
anointing is revealed in
September 28th, 1843, normally

993
00:56:21,580 --> 00:56:24,980
Joseph would follow this pattern
of having first conferred the

994
00:56:24,980 --> 00:56:28,260
ordinance on someone else and
then somebody else gives the

995
00:56:28,260 --> 00:56:30,420
ordinance back to them.
It's generally what Joseph Smith

996
00:56:30,420 --> 00:56:32,060
does.
But in the case of the second

997
00:56:32,060 --> 00:56:34,900
anointing, it's kind of
interesting in that we have the

998
00:56:34,900 --> 00:56:40,340
testimony that Joseph signed
Hiram Smith and William Marks to

999
00:56:40,340 --> 00:56:43,020
give him his second anointing
and him and Emma.

1000
00:56:43,020 --> 00:56:44,580
So they are the first people to
get it.

1001
00:56:44,780 --> 00:56:49,270
And so by that context, Hiram
and William Marks had the keys

1002
00:56:49,270 --> 00:56:51,630
to perform Joseph second
anointing.

1003
00:56:52,070 --> 00:56:54,710
You know, even though they had
not yet received their second

1004
00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:56,950
anointing to himself.
Hiram would be the second

1005
00:56:56,950 --> 00:56:58,630
person.
William Marks would be the 4th

1006
00:56:58,630 --> 00:57:01,750
person I believe to receive.
The second those those are one

1007
00:57:01,750 --> 00:57:05,110
off events when when the
restoration is getting going

1008
00:57:05,270 --> 00:57:07,990
right.
Those those aren't.

1009
00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:13,560
There was a pattern after that,
right Once those once those

1010
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:18,600
things were established whether
it be baptism or second

1011
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:23,160
anointings, those are one offs
in in the process of setting

1012
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,400
things up because everything
that flows after that is very

1013
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:32,480
orderly right where if that
makes sense, I'm just trying to

1014
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:37,040
understand here.
So those are one off events at

1015
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:40,340
the beginning.
We don't see that a whole bunch

1016
00:57:40,460 --> 00:57:43,500
after that, do we?
I mean that that doesn't seem to

1017
00:57:43,500 --> 00:57:45,900
be the pattern.
The other thing I would say to

1018
00:57:45,900 --> 00:57:49,940
this is that if, well, I'll let
you answer that one, then I'll

1019
00:57:49,940 --> 00:57:52,980
ask my followup question to that
Okay.

1020
00:57:53,220 --> 00:57:57,220
So I I do think that the ideal
way of things was obviously

1021
00:57:57,220 --> 00:57:59,180
through the ordinances.
But I do think that they

1022
00:57:59,180 --> 00:58:03,220
recognized in early Utah that
there was kind of a hesitancy to

1023
00:58:03,260 --> 00:58:06,460
do higher temple ordinances
outside of the temple.

1024
00:58:07,030 --> 00:58:10,550
And you kind of see this with,
you know, them not doing

1025
00:58:10,550 --> 00:58:14,590
anymore, you know, baptisms for
the dead or second anointings

1026
00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:19,950
until, you know the
186618661867.

1027
00:58:19,950 --> 00:58:22,750
So there's kind of like a, you
know, there there's a real delay

1028
00:58:23,030 --> 00:58:26,470
in, you know, Brigham Young
initially is kind of saying that

1029
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:29,570
we don't want to do any of these
ordinances outside of the

1030
00:58:29,570 --> 00:58:31,850
temple.
And so the idea of conferring

1031
00:58:31,850 --> 00:58:34,610
the keys outside of the
ordinances is based kind of on

1032
00:58:34,610 --> 00:58:39,530
the idea that, you know, outside
of the temple that we can we can

1033
00:58:39,530 --> 00:58:41,690
pass on the authority.
And then when things are in a

1034
00:58:41,690 --> 00:58:44,850
better space, you know, when
you're got a proper, you know,

1035
00:58:44,850 --> 00:58:48,610
situation to do ordinances, then
you can go ahead and do

1036
00:58:48,610 --> 00:58:51,330
ordinances if that makes sense.
And you kind of see this with

1037
00:58:51,410 --> 00:58:54,930
early fundamentalists where they
were not originally doing temple

1038
00:58:54,930 --> 00:58:56,010
ordinances.
For the most part.

1039
00:58:56,010 --> 00:59:00,460
It's not until the late 1940s,
early 1950s, they start having

1040
00:59:00,460 --> 00:59:03,180
this concern that, you know,
we've gone decades without doing

1041
00:59:03,180 --> 00:59:06,660
temple ordinances.
But early on, you know, like

1042
00:59:06,660 --> 00:59:09,700
muster is ordained to the
priesthood of Elijah.

1043
00:59:09,860 --> 00:59:11,340
You know, after a second
anointing.

1044
00:59:11,340 --> 00:59:13,900
And it's kind of this being
ordained to the priesthood of

1045
00:59:13,900 --> 00:59:17,380
Elijah by the laying out of
hands by Joseph F Smith is kind

1046
00:59:17,380 --> 00:59:20,870
of saying, I'm giving you full
authority to do all the

1047
00:59:20,870 --> 00:59:24,910
ordinances you know that are
necessary, you know, as is will

1048
00:59:24,910 --> 00:59:26,670
become, you know, as you will be
directed.

1049
00:59:27,150 --> 00:59:30,470
And I do think that part of
this, you know, I I think part

1050
00:59:30,470 --> 00:59:33,190
of this I think can be supported
through Joseph Smith's

1051
00:59:33,620 --> 00:59:35,420
teachings.
When you look at March is March

1052
00:59:35,420 --> 00:59:39,980
10th, 1844 speech where he's
talking about Elias, Elijah,

1053
00:59:39,980 --> 00:59:42,940
Messiah.
He says the power of Elijah is

1054
00:59:42,940 --> 00:59:46,380
to perform all the ordinances of
the House of God and all the

1055
00:59:46,380 --> 00:59:48,860
endowments of the fullness of
the Melkensic precinct.

1056
00:59:48,860 --> 00:59:52,420
So Joseph was saying that the
the priesthood of Elijah

1057
00:59:52,420 --> 00:59:55,550
comprehended, you know, doing
all the ordinances.

1058
00:59:55,790 --> 00:59:58,070
And so I understand there are
different schools of thought on

1059
00:59:58,070 --> 00:59:59,430
this.
I'm just explaining kind of the

1060
00:59:59,430 --> 01:00:02,270
Le Baron perspective for how the
keys have been passed down for

1061
01:00:02,270 --> 01:00:04,870
the in the Le Baron belief
system, if that.

1062
01:00:04,870 --> 01:00:06,630
Makes no, that's perfect.
That's great.

1063
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:10,270
That explains a lot.
I appreciate that so.

1064
01:00:10,780 --> 01:00:13,020
Ross is, you know, gets ordained
to the keys.

1065
01:00:13,020 --> 01:00:15,700
He's not appointed his father's
successor.

1066
01:00:16,060 --> 01:00:19,380
And he says his father comes out
again several months later, in

1067
01:00:19,380 --> 01:00:22,620
May of 1950.
And he's really concerned that

1068
01:00:22,620 --> 01:00:24,780
his father's not going to live a
whole lot longer.

1069
01:00:24,780 --> 01:00:28,300
He says you need to appoint a
successor, you know, before you

1070
01:00:28,300 --> 01:00:31,660
die.
And you know, there's kind of

1071
01:00:31,940 --> 01:00:35,140
attitude was I can't appoint A
successor until I get revelation

1072
01:00:35,140 --> 01:00:37,580
from God appointing who the
birthright is.

1073
01:00:38,270 --> 01:00:40,750
There was really big that this
needed to be appointed by

1074
01:00:40,750 --> 01:00:44,390
revelation rather than a
personal preference, and so Ross

1075
01:00:44,710 --> 01:00:46,750
went.
He said he got a revelation the

1076
01:00:46,750 --> 01:00:49,390
the next morning saying your dad
will not confer upon you the

1077
01:00:49,390 --> 01:00:52,870
birthright, but if you ask him
for the authority to go ahead

1078
01:00:52,870 --> 01:00:56,790
and carry on the patriarchal
work in his stead, he will give

1079
01:00:56,790 --> 01:00:59,870
you that authorization.
The honor is in the work, not

1080
01:00:59,870 --> 01:01:03,180
the title.
And so Ross went to his dad and,

1081
01:01:03,260 --> 01:01:04,860
you know, and had this
discussion with him.

1082
01:01:04,860 --> 01:01:08,420
His dad said, you are free to go
ahead in the patriarchal work as

1083
01:01:08,420 --> 01:01:12,100
the Lord inspires you and your
brother here is the witness that

1084
01:01:12,100 --> 01:01:16,100
I'm giving you this authority.
And so Ross starts kind of in

1085
01:01:16,100 --> 01:01:20,660
1950, starts kind of teaching
about their families, priesthood

1086
01:01:20,660 --> 01:01:22,460
claims.
He's also teaching this idea

1087
01:01:22,460 --> 01:01:26,220
that there is a order of
priesthood that is above the

1088
01:01:26,220 --> 01:01:28,940
Church.
That is, that is.

1089
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,000
To establish a new family order
of the Saints that the Saints

1090
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,640
should be preparing to get you
know to move up into this

1091
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:42,040
patriarchal order of the priest
said so there on his deathbed

1092
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:46,480
there there actually dies less
than a year later in February of

1093
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:50,120
1951 and he this he's according
to his brother.

1094
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:55,960
His is the way that the reason
there died quickly is.

1095
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,240
He said that he was driving in
his truck.

1096
01:01:58,890 --> 01:02:02,850
And it tipped over on him and it
hurt his neck really bad and he

1097
01:02:02,850 --> 01:02:07,090
got and he became very sick and
eventually paralysis set in and

1098
01:02:07,090 --> 01:02:10,690
three months before his death he
was completely helpless and

1099
01:02:10,690 --> 01:02:14,770
couldn't move any part of his
body or talk And and so there

1100
01:02:14,770 --> 01:02:18,690
was kind of wanting to appoint
his birthright successor on his

1101
01:02:18,690 --> 01:02:24,450
deathbed and on his on his
deathbed he's trying to he might

1102
01:02:24,450 --> 01:02:26,890
have had a little bit of
conflict with Ross over.

1103
01:02:27,500 --> 01:02:30,620
There was really big on living
in Mexico and Ross kind of

1104
01:02:30,620 --> 01:02:34,620
established his life in Utah.
And so I feel like that was

1105
01:02:34,700 --> 01:02:38,380
might have been a decent part of
the there being some sort of

1106
01:02:38,380 --> 01:02:40,620
disagreement between Ross and
DARE.

1107
01:02:41,380 --> 01:02:44,420
And so dare on his deathbed is
trying to appoint one of his

1108
01:02:44,420 --> 01:02:48,820
sons as wanting to appoint one
of his sons as to be as to the

1109
01:02:48,980 --> 01:02:51,660
family birthright.
And he's trying to appoint his

1110
01:02:51,660 --> 01:02:53,860
young younger son Joel the
birthright.

1111
01:02:54,170 --> 01:02:56,770
But according to the
contemporary source at the time,

1112
01:02:56,770 --> 01:03:00,610
it's according to the his his
wife Maude, she says that you

1113
01:03:00,610 --> 01:03:03,530
really wanted to do it, but he
couldn't without divine

1114
01:03:03,690 --> 01:03:05,730
direction.
So the Holy Ghost essentially

1115
01:03:05,730 --> 01:03:07,730
wouldn't let him appoint the
birthright.

1116
01:03:08,170 --> 01:03:10,930
And he said that he wanted to
send for Ross to come down to

1117
01:03:10,930 --> 01:03:15,890
Mexico and qualify for for it.
But unfortunately, Ross said he

1118
01:03:15,890 --> 01:03:18,690
was still under bond to not
leave the state of Utah.

1119
01:03:19,210 --> 01:03:21,810
And so he wasn't able to come
down to Mexico.

1120
01:03:21,810 --> 01:03:24,640
And so they're kind of.
Died on it, died without

1121
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,880
formally appointing Ross as his
successor.

1122
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:32,560
And I would see it say as an
analogist to this is An analogy

1123
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:37,880
to this is that Roth is that
Brigham Young wasn't ever

1124
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:39,920
appointed Joseph Smith's
successor.

1125
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,320
While Joseph was alive, Brigham
was one of the closest men to

1126
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,160
Joseph Smith.
Brigham had been ordained to all

1127
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:48,960
the authority that Joseph held.
You know he perceived you've

1128
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:50,920
been a part of the temple
ordinances he received.

1129
01:03:51,370 --> 01:03:54,530
The full authority, all that one
man can give to another man from

1130
01:03:54,530 --> 01:03:58,050
Joseph Smith.
And it's not until really the

1131
01:03:58,050 --> 01:04:01,330
Transfiguration of Brigham Young
experience and on August 8th,

1132
01:04:01,330 --> 01:04:04,890
1844, that the Saints were shown
that the Mantle was going to

1133
01:04:05,410 --> 01:04:07,130
Brigham Young after Joseph's
death.

1134
01:04:07,370 --> 01:04:10,250
And so in a similar way, I think
Ross wasn't formally appointed

1135
01:04:10,250 --> 01:04:12,010
the birthright by DARE.
Well, his.

1136
01:04:12,330 --> 01:04:16,330
There was a life, but that you
know that that Ross was really

1137
01:04:16,330 --> 01:04:18,690
the one in the best position to
carry on.

1138
01:04:19,050 --> 01:04:22,790
There's work.
As you know, the older son who

1139
01:04:22,830 --> 01:04:25,830
one of the only basically the
only son who has really

1140
01:04:25,830 --> 01:04:28,790
understood his father's
priesthood claims and was trying

1141
01:04:28,790 --> 01:04:30,870
to carry on his father's
teachings.

1142
01:04:31,190 --> 01:04:34,350
I personally believe that the
reason that dare that God

1143
01:04:34,350 --> 01:04:38,230
wouldn't let dare appoint Joel
was because Joel as of that time

1144
01:04:38,230 --> 01:04:41,750
hadn't yet accepted his father's
teachings or his father's

1145
01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:47,200
priesthood claims and so.
Right after DARE died, Joel

1146
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:51,280
actually organized the family in
Mexico as being a branch of the

1147
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:56,480
what would be known as the
Allred group, which is something

1148
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,320
that DARE hadn't allowed to be
done while he was alive.

1149
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,040
And so that showed Joel and many
of the younger brothers were

1150
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:07,400
still very much in Woolleyites
in their priesthood beliefs as

1151
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:10,240
of that time.
So So Dare died on February

1152
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:16,680
19th, 1951.
After Dare's death, you know,

1153
01:05:16,680 --> 01:05:20,400
Ross is really the one who's
trying to carry on his father's

1154
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,680
teachings and he's, you know
again, teaching about the

1155
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:26,560
patriarchal priesthood and how
men were supposed to qualify the

1156
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:30,040
advances of this family order
and hold priests authority to

1157
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:33,600
administer to their own families
in the patriarchal organization.

1158
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,880
So he.
Ross said interestingly, two of

1159
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:40,520
the first men who he said
accepted his his claims and his

1160
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,120
teachings were Brigham Young,
the third.

1161
01:05:43,810 --> 01:05:47,650
And Heber Chase Kimball, who?
A grandson of Brigham Young and

1162
01:05:47,650 --> 01:05:51,570
a grandson of Heber C Kimball,
who both kind of had claims that

1163
01:05:51,570 --> 01:05:55,330
they were the they that they had
the family birthrights of those

1164
01:05:55,330 --> 01:05:57,090
families that had been passed
down to them.

1165
01:05:57,650 --> 01:05:59,690
And.
Ross actually said that Heber

1166
01:05:59,690 --> 01:06:02,850
Chase Kimball was probably the
first man that he personally

1167
01:06:03,130 --> 01:06:05,410
ordained to the patriarchal
priest, said.

1168
01:06:05,930 --> 01:06:09,220
So I think that's.
A big part of Ross's teachings

1169
01:06:09,220 --> 01:06:13,380
was he wasn't trying to magnify
all the authority and himself,

1170
01:06:13,660 --> 01:06:16,860
but he said my job is to pass
out the authority that I've been

1171
01:06:16,860 --> 01:06:21,900
given to others and help them
get established as patriarchs

1172
01:06:21,900 --> 01:06:26,660
and their own rights.
So after DARE died, Ross said

1173
01:06:26,660 --> 01:06:30,140
that the same day that he got a
letter from his brother telling

1174
01:06:30,140 --> 01:06:32,740
him that his father had passed
away, he.

1175
01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:35,600
He got a revelation, he said.
A voice from heaven told him

1176
01:06:35,600 --> 01:06:38,440
that the work of the patriarchal
House of the Prophet Joseph

1177
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:40,200
Smith is now upon your
shoulders.

1178
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:44,800
He said that a few weeks after
that he had a revelation to go

1179
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:50,000
see Joseph W Musser and have
Musser confirmed that he is that

1180
01:06:50,000 --> 01:06:52,400
he is the one who's received
their family's birthright.

1181
01:06:53,010 --> 01:06:56,210
And so Ross wrote about this in
a pamphlet in 1962, So

1182
01:06:56,210 --> 01:06:59,530
revelation given to Patriarch
Ross W Lebaron at the home of

1183
01:06:59,530 --> 01:07:03,570
Heber Chase Kimball in Salt Lake
City, April 3rd, 1951.

1184
01:07:03,810 --> 01:07:06,250
My father recently passed away,
and I was concerned over what

1185
01:07:06,250 --> 01:07:09,330
course the following connection
with the patriarchal work you've

1186
01:07:09,330 --> 01:07:12,370
given me in the spring of 1950,
and I received the following

1187
01:07:12,370 --> 01:07:14,850
revelation.
Thus saith the Lord, Go into my

1188
01:07:14,850 --> 01:07:17,610
servant Joseph W Musser, and
have your patriarchal keys,

1189
01:07:17,610 --> 01:07:19,530
which you received from your
father confirmed.

1190
01:07:20,070 --> 01:07:23,110
Where he is the only man among
the fundamentalists that's that

1191
01:07:23,110 --> 01:07:26,150
has sufficient authority to do
so, where he has received his

1192
01:07:26,150 --> 01:07:28,510
second anointings and holds the
fullness of the priest.

1193
01:07:28,510 --> 01:07:31,590
In to Rosslyn wrote that I
called on the home of Brother

1194
01:07:31,590 --> 01:07:33,430
Musser.
One of his wives answered the

1195
01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:35,910
phone and I asked for an
appointment to see him, but she

1196
01:07:35,910 --> 01:07:37,510
informed me that he was not
feeling well.

1197
01:07:37,710 --> 01:07:40,110
I told her that I had to work to
do and that I would like to see

1198
01:07:40,110 --> 01:07:43,350
Brother Musser before I started,
and that if it was of the Lord

1199
01:07:43,350 --> 01:07:45,910
he would see me.
She told me to wait and she

1200
01:07:45,910 --> 01:07:48,450
would ask him.
When she returned to the phone,

1201
01:07:48,450 --> 01:07:51,130
she told me that he wanted to
see me and to come in at 2 the

1202
01:07:51,130 --> 01:07:53,050
afternoon.
One of his wives stayed in the

1203
01:07:53,050 --> 01:07:55,770
room while we talked.
As I entered the room, he spoke

1204
01:07:55,770 --> 01:07:57,690
first, saying, you've had a
revelation.

1205
01:07:57,930 --> 01:07:59,610
Yes, I answered, I've come to
honor you.

1206
01:07:59,610 --> 01:08:02,730
As Abraham honored Melkezic
Brother Muster asked me to sit

1207
01:08:02,730 --> 01:08:06,210
down as the twin bed next to
where he was lying and held my

1208
01:08:06,210 --> 01:08:09,010
hand during the conversation.
And so he goes out and kind of

1209
01:08:09,010 --> 01:08:11,730
explains their family's story
and their priestly claims And

1210
01:08:11,730 --> 01:08:13,930
muster says that's a mighty high
claim.

1211
01:08:14,340 --> 01:08:16,819
And so then Ross replies.
Yes, the highest title of birth

1212
01:08:17,100 --> 01:08:20,020
and the 2nd order of priesthood,
Brother Muster said in a firm

1213
01:08:20,020 --> 01:08:21,819
voice that thrilled and
penetrated my soul.

1214
01:08:21,819 --> 01:08:24,580
I confirmed this.
I explained some of my views

1215
01:08:24,580 --> 01:08:27,660
concerning patriarchal law, and
the time had now come to start

1216
01:08:27,660 --> 01:08:29,979
teaching these principles.
He again confirmed my view.

1217
01:08:30,340 --> 01:08:32,859
I felt to bless him under the
patriarchal authority I held,

1218
01:08:32,859 --> 01:08:34,939
and I promised him that he
should have strength in this

1219
01:08:34,939 --> 01:08:36,939
work.
Few weeks later, I wrote him a

1220
01:08:36,939 --> 01:08:39,340
letter and struck him to go
forth in his old age, even his

1221
01:08:39,340 --> 01:08:41,140
Adam, and bless and organize his
house.

1222
01:08:41,620 --> 01:08:44,779
Going to the patriarchal law.
So there were some people, Ross

1223
01:08:45,060 --> 01:08:46,979
kind of after this, there's some
people who kind of felt that

1224
01:08:46,979 --> 01:08:50,939
Musser was incapacitated by the
early 1950s because he he

1225
01:08:50,939 --> 01:08:53,740
actually had a stroke even
before John White Barlow died.

1226
01:08:54,220 --> 01:08:57,899
And some people kind of said
that, you know, there was kind

1227
01:08:58,100 --> 01:09:02,260
of this dual personality and
Ross kind of mentioned that too.

1228
01:09:02,260 --> 01:09:06,100
He said that, but he seemed
totally cognizant and totally

1229
01:09:06,100 --> 01:09:09,460
clear in all my interactions
with him and so.

1230
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:13,840
You know, when that story was
related to somebody who was

1231
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:18,240
ordained to the priesthood
priesthood line coming from

1232
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,319
Joseph Thompson, that kind of
said that Joe Thompson said that

1233
01:09:21,319 --> 01:09:25,040
same idea, that there were times
where muster, you know, kind of

1234
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,040
didn't look all there, but there
were other times where he was

1235
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:30,880
absolutely clear and cognizant
when he's doing his work during

1236
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:32,560
the last couple of years of his
life.

1237
01:09:33,090 --> 01:09:37,609
So Ross, by the year 1955,
believe he got some sort of

1238
01:09:37,609 --> 01:09:39,930
revelation.
He got revelation confirming to

1239
01:09:39,930 --> 01:09:42,569
him that this patriarchal order
was to be called the Church of

1240
01:09:42,569 --> 01:09:44,569
the First born.
That was to be a separate,

1241
01:09:44,569 --> 01:09:47,729
distinct church from the Church
of Jesus Christ.

1242
01:09:48,170 --> 01:09:50,810
And you know that the
fundamentalist, instead of

1243
01:09:50,810 --> 01:09:54,410
looking to fall back into the
LDS church, as so many

1244
01:09:54,410 --> 01:09:57,690
fundamentalists were talking
about around that time, Ross

1245
01:09:57,690 --> 01:10:00,570
said, you should instead hope to
advance into the Church of the

1246
01:10:00,570 --> 01:10:04,460
first born level of the gospel.
And so yeah, this is on January

1247
01:10:04,460 --> 01:10:08,780
6th, 1955, he said.
We, he said first speaker Ross

1248
01:10:08,780 --> 01:10:11,020
Wesley Le Baron Rose immediately
and addressed this on the

1249
01:10:11,020 --> 01:10:13,540
restitution of all things, such
as the Patriarchal rule, the

1250
01:10:13,540 --> 01:10:16,660
endemic Dispensation, along with
the Church of the First Born.

1251
01:10:16,940 --> 01:10:19,460
He proceeded to explain the
organization of the patriarchal

1252
01:10:19,460 --> 01:10:23,180
priest in the latter days and he
goes on and says we need not

1253
01:10:23,180 --> 01:10:25,980
fall back into the church one
day, but instead we can become

1254
01:10:25,980 --> 01:10:27,900
part of the Church of the first
born.

1255
01:10:28,910 --> 01:10:33,990
So when Ross's brothers Joel and
Florin were visiting Utah in the

1256
01:10:33,990 --> 01:10:37,710
later part of 1955, they
actually initially came up to

1257
01:10:37,710 --> 01:10:42,150
visit family, and they also
visited the Allred group leaders

1258
01:10:42,150 --> 01:10:46,510
at that time in August of 1955.
But then they stayed with Ross a

1259
01:10:46,510 --> 01:10:50,390
few weeks later in September,
and Ross actually converted them

1260
01:10:50,470 --> 01:10:53,230
to the legitimacy of their
father's priesthood.

1261
01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:57,240
And.
Joel Ross recalled that Joel got

1262
01:10:57,240 --> 01:10:59,360
really excited about this.
He says, well, you know, we

1263
01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:01,600
should go ahead and organize the
Church of the First Born if

1264
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,560
that's what it's going to be.
And so they actually went and

1265
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:09,360
they formally organized on
September 21st, 81955 the Church

1266
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:10,960
of the First Born.
And what's interesting about

1267
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:14,320
these minutes is it shows that
Ross's younger brothers, Joel

1268
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:18,760
and Florence, sustained him as
receiving the priest of Keys and

1269
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:22,040
the work that had been passed
down to their father from Bender

1270
01:11:22,040 --> 01:11:24,690
F Johnson.
So it the minutes record the

1271
01:11:24,690 --> 01:11:27,370
calling of Ross W Lebaron
received of his father's holding

1272
01:11:27,370 --> 01:11:29,570
all the keys, rights, and
authority of the Patriarchal

1273
01:11:29,570 --> 01:11:32,730
priesthood, was confirmed by
Patriarchs Joel and Florin

1274
01:11:32,730 --> 01:11:35,810
Lebaron to preside as head
Patriarch in the Church of the

1275
01:11:35,810 --> 01:11:38,170
first one of the fullness of
times to hold all the

1276
01:11:38,170 --> 01:11:40,930
Patriarchal keys of this
dispensation held by the Prophet

1277
01:11:40,930 --> 01:11:45,130
Joseph Smith, and handed down to
Patrich Benjamin F Johnson by

1278
01:11:45,130 --> 01:11:48,570
the Prophet, and conferred upon
the Head of Patriarch by Alma D

1279
01:11:48,570 --> 01:11:50,770
Lebaron, who conferred them on
his sons.

1280
01:11:51,210 --> 01:11:53,610
And so what's interesting is
this meeting minutes show that

1281
01:11:53,650 --> 01:11:58,570
Ross presided over, and the Ross
ordains both Joel and Florin to

1282
01:11:58,570 --> 01:12:00,930
the priests, all the keys,
rights and authority of the

1283
01:12:00,930 --> 01:12:04,650
patriarchal priesthood to be
patriarchs in their own rights

1284
01:12:04,650 --> 01:12:07,730
at this meeting.
So that shows that really, you

1285
01:12:07,730 --> 01:12:11,850
know, that Ross was the one who
was presiding over that first

1286
01:12:11,850 --> 01:12:14,850
meeting.
But shortly after that, Joel, I

1287
01:12:14,850 --> 01:12:16,530
believe there's only a couple
days later.

1288
01:12:17,470 --> 01:12:20,390
Well, let me ask you, let me ask
you a question real quick.

1289
01:12:20,830 --> 01:12:24,230
I want to or this, this idea of
the Church of the first born

1290
01:12:24,230 --> 01:12:26,430
here, because we read about it
in the Doctrine and Covenants

1291
01:12:26,430 --> 01:12:36,910
quite a bit.
Why wasn't this ever, why wasn't

1292
01:12:36,910 --> 01:12:42,190
this ever brought about this way
in, in Brigham's time, right.

1293
01:12:42,190 --> 01:12:46,170
We we can say Okay.
Maybe Joseph was martyred before

1294
01:12:46,170 --> 01:12:49,610
he could fully institute it, but
we assume that this was passed

1295
01:12:49,610 --> 01:12:52,930
on as well to to Brigham Young,
right?

1296
01:12:53,250 --> 01:12:56,650
Why doesn't this ever get
brought forward before Ross?

1297
01:12:58,650 --> 01:13:01,610
So I think we talked a little
bit last time about kind of all

1298
01:13:01,610 --> 01:13:05,650
these fundamental Nabu Priested
ideas that Joseph Smith was

1299
01:13:05,650 --> 01:13:08,770
instituting.
And we also kind of talked about

1300
01:13:08,770 --> 01:13:12,690
how after Joseph Smith's death
that the apostles did feel fully

1301
01:13:12,690 --> 01:13:17,310
in a position to perpetuate.
All of these ideas and you know,

1302
01:13:17,550 --> 01:13:20,350
like we mentioned with the
fullness of the priesthood, they

1303
01:13:20,350 --> 01:13:22,830
actually left out a very
important Brigham Young

1304
01:13:22,830 --> 01:13:25,830
statement about it out of the
sermon in the history of the

1305
01:13:25,830 --> 01:13:29,310
church that they were compiling.
And they also didn't mention the

1306
01:13:29,310 --> 01:13:32,350
fullness of the priesthood for
most of the early Utah time

1307
01:13:32,350 --> 01:13:39,230
period for about 19, I mean 1848
to 9, it was 1869 is when I was

1308
01:13:39,230 --> 01:13:41,270
going through the journal
discourse and that's when you

1309
01:13:41,350 --> 01:13:44,110
finally have comments, you know,
20 years later.

1310
01:13:44,570 --> 01:13:47,010
About the fullness of the priest
in and so I think they

1311
01:13:47,690 --> 01:13:49,850
definitely the church.
The first born under Joseph

1312
01:13:49,850 --> 01:13:54,170
Smith was intended to be kind of
more of a an inner church that

1313
01:13:54,250 --> 01:13:55,850
members would eventually advance
into.

1314
01:13:55,850 --> 01:13:58,690
And when Joseph Smith was
establishing it in Nabu, it was

1315
01:13:58,770 --> 01:14:02,570
a secret organization and the
apostles definitely initially

1316
01:14:02,570 --> 01:14:05,490
did keep it secret.
But there were a few occasions

1317
01:14:05,490 --> 01:14:10,490
where they did make statements
about this, the most significant

1318
01:14:10,490 --> 01:14:17,570
one being Heber C Kimball's. 19
Five page 129 through 130 where

1319
01:14:17,570 --> 01:14:23,250
he This is on August 2nd, 1857,
during the middle of the Utah

1320
01:14:23,250 --> 01:14:26,890
War.
And there's basically threats

1321
01:14:26,890 --> 01:14:30,490
that when the groups get to
Utah, they're going to cut off

1322
01:14:30,490 --> 01:14:35,450
the head of the church, they're
going, they're going to grab all

1323
01:14:35,450 --> 01:14:38,530
the apostles and have them all
executed for treason.

1324
01:14:39,170 --> 01:14:42,170
And so it was in this context
that Hebrew C Kimball kind of

1325
01:14:42,170 --> 01:14:45,850
lets the cat out of the bag and
makes the only very explicit

1326
01:14:45,850 --> 01:14:48,850
Church of the first Born
statement that we have in the

1327
01:14:48,850 --> 01:14:52,770
early Utah time period where he
says, let me explain what the

1328
01:14:52,770 --> 01:14:56,050
Church of the First Born is.
It is the first church that ever

1329
01:14:56,050 --> 01:14:58,850
was raised up upon this earth.
That is the first born church.

1330
01:14:58,850 --> 01:15:01,250
That is what I mean.
When God our Father organized

1331
01:15:01,250 --> 01:15:04,130
that church, He organized it
just as His Father organized the

1332
01:15:04,130 --> 01:15:05,530
church on the earth where He
dwelt.

1333
01:15:05,870 --> 01:15:08,550
And that same order is organized
here in the city of Great Salt

1334
01:15:08,550 --> 01:15:10,390
Lake.
And is that order that Joseph

1335
01:15:10,390 --> 01:15:13,390
Smith, the prophet of God,
organized in the beginning in

1336
01:15:13,390 --> 01:15:15,790
Kirtland?
OH, so my opinion is that he

1337
01:15:15,790 --> 01:15:17,910
says in Kirtland.
OH, because that's where the

1338
01:15:17,910 --> 01:15:20,030
keys were restored in the
Kirtland Temple.

1339
01:15:21,070 --> 01:15:23,950
So Brother Brigham Young myself.
And others were.

1340
01:15:23,950 --> 01:15:26,430
Present When that was done so,
they were all present in the

1341
01:15:26,430 --> 01:15:28,750
Kirtland Temple when Joseph
Smith and Oliver Calgary

1342
01:15:28,750 --> 01:15:32,750
received those temple keys from
Moses, Elias and Elijah.

1343
01:15:34,780 --> 01:15:37,500
When, when those officers?
Received their endowments.

1344
01:15:37,500 --> 01:15:41,060
They were together in one place.
They were organized and received

1345
01:15:41,060 --> 01:15:43,740
their endowments and blessings,
and those keys were placed upon

1346
01:15:43,740 --> 01:15:44,860
them.
And that Kingdom will stand

1347
01:15:44,860 --> 01:15:47,420
forever now, market.
That Kingdom will never be

1348
01:15:47,420 --> 01:15:49,060
overthrown, although they may
kill.

1349
01:15:49,060 --> 01:15:51,060
That is, if they can.
Brother Brigham and me and

1350
01:15:51,060 --> 01:15:53,580
Brother Daniel H Wells.
So that's the First Presidency.

1351
01:15:53,860 --> 01:15:57,020
And they may kill all, kill the
apostles if they can.

1352
01:15:57,260 --> 01:15:59,540
And so they may keep on from
this time to all eternity.

1353
01:15:59,540 --> 01:16:02,020
And they never can obliterate
this work.

1354
01:16:02,300 --> 01:16:04,620
I know it they may kill and
destroy, waste a great many

1355
01:16:04,620 --> 01:16:07,140
limbs there upon this church.
But let me tell you, they never

1356
01:16:07,140 --> 01:16:09,460
can kill the tree, nor destroy
the root from whence we have

1357
01:16:09,460 --> 01:16:12,220
spring for our Father and God is
that root, and Jesus Christ the

1358
01:16:12,220 --> 01:16:15,700
Son of God is the tree or vine,
and we spring out of that vine.

1359
01:16:16,100 --> 01:16:20,740
So this is probably the only
very explicit statement about it

1360
01:16:20,900 --> 01:16:23,140
in the early Utah period, if
that makes sense.

1361
01:16:24,220 --> 01:16:26,620
In the Nabu temple they
mentioned that.

1362
01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:29,640
Heber C Kimmel made a comment
saying that when we get fully

1363
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:33,280
organized, we have the church,
we have the celestial Kingdom

1364
01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:35,880
organized here.
And so that's referencing kind

1365
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:37,840
of the the Church of the first
born.

1366
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:41,560
And so fundamentalists, early on
they, they knew about this

1367
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:45,480
statement, but they didn't
really put it all together as

1368
01:16:45,480 --> 01:16:48,520
being kind of like that the
temple ordinances and the temple

1369
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:52,600
doctrines and the temple priest
is what is to establish the

1370
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,400
Church of the first born.
They kind of looked at it.

1371
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:58,240
As in kind of vaguer terms, like
some of them looked at it as a

1372
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:02,040
heavenly church, as most of most
mainstream Latter Day Saints

1373
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:03,400
believe the Church of the first
born is.

1374
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:06,560
But some of them looked at it as
it's all the Saints that are

1375
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:11,840
living, all the laws of God.
And so really, I I do think that

1376
01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:15,480
Ross was kind of a pioneer in
believing that actually this is

1377
01:17:15,480 --> 01:17:18,360
going to be a very distinct new
organization that you should

1378
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:22,360
hope to advance to into, rather
than falling back into the

1379
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:26,100
Church of Jesus Christ.
And similarly Joseph Fielding

1380
01:17:26,100 --> 01:17:30,020
Smith made many comments about
the Church of the first born in

1381
01:17:30,060 --> 01:17:33,620
some of his writings where he he
had some of these similar ideas

1382
01:17:34,020 --> 01:17:37,060
about you know that the Church
of the first born is the inner

1383
01:17:37,060 --> 01:17:40,020
Church of those who have
received the the highest

1384
01:17:40,580 --> 01:17:44,380
ordinances of the temple is kind
of what Joseph Fielding Smith

1385
01:17:44,380 --> 01:17:48,900
expresses in his writings.
So, Joel, less than a.

1386
01:17:48,900 --> 01:17:52,220
Week after Ross and.
Then organized the Church of the

1387
01:17:52,220 --> 01:17:53,780
first born of the fullness of
times.

1388
01:17:54,210 --> 01:17:57,970
Joel goes and says that he
basically went up into the

1389
01:17:57,970 --> 01:18:02,170
mountains to get a revelation
and he had Farmington Canyon was

1390
01:18:02,170 --> 01:18:04,490
the location.
He said he had no fewer than I

1391
01:18:04,490 --> 01:18:09,450
think 17 different resurrected
angels appear to him and appoint

1392
01:18:09,450 --> 01:18:14,570
him the one mighty and strong.
You know, I kind of chuckle but

1393
01:18:14,570 --> 01:18:15,610
that.
Was his serious?

1394
01:18:15,610 --> 01:18:19,450
Claim that he made and he
basically when Ross and Joel

1395
01:18:19,530 --> 01:18:21,930
organized the Church of the
First born of the fullness of

1396
01:18:21,930 --> 01:18:24,690
times.
Joel and Ross kind of agreed

1397
01:18:24,690 --> 01:18:28,330
that we'd work together with
Ross presiding until the one

1398
01:18:28,330 --> 01:18:31,970
mighty and strong kind of comes.
It's kind of what they what they

1399
01:18:32,090 --> 01:18:34,770
discussed when they initially
organized and so very

1400
01:18:34,770 --> 01:18:36,890
convenient.
Joel just says, well I am the

1401
01:18:36,890 --> 01:18:39,730
one mighty and strong and I am
now the head.

1402
01:18:39,730 --> 01:18:45,090
And so that led to a separation
between Joel and Ross and Joel

1403
01:18:45,090 --> 01:18:49,250
kind of went down with to Mexico
and the rest of the family kind

1404
01:18:49,250 --> 01:18:50,930
of followed him.
They kind of followed him based

1405
01:18:50,930 --> 01:18:53,680
on the fact, they said.
Joel's never lied, so I don't

1406
01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:55,080
know.
I don't think that he would lie

1407
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:58,640
about this experience as kind of
what I see in a lot of the

1408
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:02,480
different family writings about
Joel's claims, they initially

1409
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:06,880
reacted very, very skeptical.
When I I've studied the Mexican

1410
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:10,600
Levarians, I heard one source
said that MoD's initial reaction

1411
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:14,720
was, Oh no, was was was what she
said.

1412
01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:17,880
And she actually wrote a letter
to Ross, kind of blaming Ross

1413
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:20,600
for getting Joel all excited
about.

1414
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:23,720
You know Priested claims and and
their families.

1415
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:33,360
Kind of the family in Mexico, he
was really big on.

1416
01:19:23,960 --> 01:19:30,080
You know Priested lineage and so
Joel went down to Mexico and.

1417
01:19:33,600 --> 01:19:37,160
My father was big on Mexico.
So we're going to be big on the

1418
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:39,600
fact that the Saints should
gather down to Mexico.

1419
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:43,200
And that's actually Joel
actually before he left Utah to

1420
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:46,880
go down or it was either later
it was either right before he

1421
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:50,240
left or right after he got down
to Mexico late 1955.

1422
01:19:50,590 --> 01:19:53,030
You can actually dictate a
revelation to ruling Allred

1423
01:19:53,030 --> 01:19:56,510
saying you know thus save the
Lord tell your people to all

1424
01:19:56,510 --> 01:20:00,190
gather down to Mexico and ruling
Allred kind of respond with

1425
01:20:00,710 --> 01:20:04,390
responded very you know like
you're not the one to be telling

1426
01:20:04,390 --> 01:20:07,270
me to gather my people down to
Mexico.

1427
01:20:07,270 --> 01:20:10,990
So ruling didn't accept the
revelation that Joel gave him.

1428
01:20:11,430 --> 01:20:15,030
So there are some significant
differences between Joel's Joel

1429
01:20:15,030 --> 01:20:17,870
Lebaron theology and Ross
Lebaron theology.

1430
01:20:17,870 --> 01:20:20,840
On Priested, I think would be.
Important to cover to kind of

1431
01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:23,680
allow people to understand the
contrast.

1432
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:28,280
So Joel had taught that the
highest priest at office was a

1433
01:20:28,280 --> 01:20:32,800
one man self perpetuating office
and that this office had been

1434
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:37,160
passed down to him by you know
that it was that he actually

1435
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:39,800
claimed that Ben Jeff Johnson
did secretly hold the highest

1436
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:41,760
office in the priesthood even
above Brigham Young.

1437
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:45,760
And that's not something that
Ross claimed in Ross's original

1438
01:20:45,760 --> 01:20:49,170
teachings.
So he don't believe that there's

1439
01:20:49,170 --> 01:20:52,490
a self perpetuating.
Highest office, the first Grant

1440
01:20:52,490 --> 01:20:54,810
head or the right of the 1st
morning that this was passed all

1441
01:20:54,810 --> 01:20:58,370
the way down to him.
And in contrast to that, Ross

1442
01:20:58,450 --> 01:21:01,770
believed that the one man office
to preside over the the highest

1443
01:21:01,770 --> 01:21:05,330
order of priesthood that grew
out of the higher order of the

1444
01:21:05,330 --> 01:21:06,850
priesthood.
That the right of the first one

1445
01:21:06,850 --> 01:21:10,410
was just the person who presided
and what lots of other people

1446
01:21:10,410 --> 01:21:11,850
could hold this highest
priesthood.

1447
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:16,560
So Joel's priesthood structure
was kind of based off of Lauren

1448
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:20,600
Wooley's teachings where role if
you get a copy of say Lynn

1449
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,640
Bishop's writings, he talks
about there being a political

1450
01:21:23,640 --> 01:21:27,320
organization of the Kingdom, a
spiritual and economic kind of

1451
01:21:27,320 --> 01:21:30,680
three different circles.
And Joel really adopted that

1452
01:21:30,680 --> 01:21:33,800
kind of idea, but in different
from Wooley.

1453
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:37,120
Wooley had the council of
Friends above it, and then the

1454
01:21:37,360 --> 01:21:39,080
president of the priesthood
above that.

1455
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:44,840
In contrast to that put the
presiding patriarch and the and

1456
01:21:44,840 --> 01:21:47,920
the right of the first born, the
one man office, as the two

1457
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:52,000
offices above that.
So his ideas were heavily kind

1458
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:55,840
of influenced by Woolly in my
opinion, but he kind of mixes a

1459
01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:57,840
little bit of their family's
claims into it.

1460
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:02,400
So Ross taught.
That the right of the first

1461
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:05,640
born, which is this one of the
names for this highest office,

1462
01:22:05,920 --> 01:22:09,830
was to stand in the place of
Adam, kind of as Adam's, you

1463
01:22:09,830 --> 01:22:13,790
know, birthright air over the
House of Israel on earth.

1464
01:22:14,190 --> 01:22:16,670
Joel, in contrast, believed that
the right of the first one was

1465
01:22:16,670 --> 01:22:18,910
to stand in the place of Jesus
Christ.

1466
01:22:19,590 --> 01:22:23,270
So Joel believed that he was by
organizing the Church of the

1467
01:22:23,270 --> 01:22:26,070
first born in Mexico, he was
reorganizing the Church of

1468
01:22:26,070 --> 01:22:27,940
Christ.
Joel believed the Church of the

1469
01:22:27,940 --> 01:22:31,060
first born was just another name
for the Church of Jesus Christ.

1470
01:22:31,300 --> 01:22:34,100
And so that's what he organized,
was based off of kind of the

1471
01:22:34,100 --> 01:22:37,820
priesthood structure with the 12
apostles, with a high council,

1472
01:22:37,940 --> 01:22:39,540
with all these different
quorums.

1473
01:22:39,860 --> 01:22:42,860
Well, Ross believed that it was
a distinct patriarchal

1474
01:22:42,860 --> 01:22:45,540
organization.
So there was a big difference

1475
01:22:45,620 --> 01:22:48,140
there.
What I would give points, one

1476
01:22:48,140 --> 01:22:51,940
person who's really was who got
to know Joel and I believe was

1477
01:22:52,140 --> 01:22:55,620
part of Joel's church and later
became a Ross Lebaron.

1478
01:22:55,620 --> 01:22:59,420
I said that Joel kind of
restored the checks and balances

1479
01:22:59,420 --> 01:23:03,300
to the Church of Jesus Christ
priesthood structure that wasn't

1480
01:23:03,300 --> 01:23:07,380
that had kind of been lost in
Utah Mormonism, where you know

1481
01:23:07,860 --> 01:23:11,540
over time the power got
gradually concentrated and more

1482
01:23:11,700 --> 01:23:15,300
concentrated rather than having
these divisions of equal

1483
01:23:15,300 --> 01:23:17,340
authority.
And this person said that one

1484
01:23:17,340 --> 01:23:20,420
thing that he really appreciated
about Joel Structure was there

1485
01:23:20,420 --> 01:23:23,020
were all of these different
checks and balances to

1486
01:23:23,020 --> 01:23:25,190
authority.
And when you study Brigham

1487
01:23:25,190 --> 01:23:27,790
Young, Brigham Young emphasize
that and talking about the

1488
01:23:27,790 --> 01:23:29,870
organization of the church and
the beauty of it.

1489
01:23:30,190 --> 01:23:33,590
And Brigham Young said that a
Bishop presides over everyone in

1490
01:23:33,590 --> 01:23:36,350
his ward, regardless of how high
of an office they held.

1491
01:23:36,550 --> 01:23:40,190
If you are 70, if you are an
apostle, you are still subject

1492
01:23:40,190 --> 01:23:43,750
to the Bishop of your ward.
And bring me, except even I, the

1493
01:23:43,750 --> 01:23:47,310
Bishop has a right to come to my
house and to inquire into

1494
01:23:47,630 --> 01:23:50,830
whether I'm you know keeping the
commandments or like keeping you

1495
01:23:50,830 --> 01:23:53,910
know, you know my family in
order and you know all the thing

1496
01:23:53,910 --> 01:23:56,310
temporal matters that Bishop
should look after.

1497
01:23:56,510 --> 01:23:59,710
And he said that you know the
the state president would kind

1498
01:23:59,710 --> 01:24:02,510
of be in charge of the spiritual
matters of a corpsman.

1499
01:24:02,510 --> 01:24:05,590
So there's kind of this division
and balance of authority that's

1500
01:24:05,590 --> 01:24:09,950
really beautiful in what Joseph
Smith divinely established with

1501
01:24:09,950 --> 01:24:14,870
the organization of the church.
So Joel to get back to some of

1502
01:24:14,870 --> 01:24:17,230
the differences between Joel and
Ross's teachings.

1503
01:24:17,470 --> 01:24:21,230
Joel believed that the
patriarchal priesthood.

1504
01:24:21,580 --> 01:24:25,100
So Joel kind of had to come up
with a way to kind of downplay

1505
01:24:25,100 --> 01:24:27,700
Ross's authority.
So he taught that the

1506
01:24:27,700 --> 01:24:30,860
patriarchal priesthood was just
part of the ironic priesthood

1507
01:24:31,340 --> 01:24:34,580
rather than being kind of a part
of the Milquesic priesthood.

1508
01:24:35,100 --> 01:24:38,220
And so that was a pretty unique
thing that he taught.

1509
01:24:38,220 --> 01:24:41,260
And you know, some people have
commented that they've never

1510
01:24:41,260 --> 01:24:44,980
really took goals, priesthood
teachings very seriously because

1511
01:24:44,980 --> 01:24:49,140
of him saying that because
Joseph Smith made many

1512
01:24:49,140 --> 01:24:51,250
statements.
About the patriarch priesthood

1513
01:24:51,250 --> 01:24:53,130
being above the erotic
priesthood.

1514
01:24:53,650 --> 01:24:56,530
So in contrast, Ross taught that
the patriarchal priesthood was a

1515
01:24:56,530 --> 01:24:59,490
higher order priesthood restored
in the Kirtland temple that was

1516
01:24:59,490 --> 01:25:03,250
above the church.
So one one thing that's

1517
01:25:03,250 --> 01:25:06,730
interesting is that Joel did get
John Birchwright, who was one of

1518
01:25:06,730 --> 01:25:10,730
the council members under Joseph
Musser's new council, to come

1519
01:25:10,730 --> 01:25:13,570
down to Mexico and to be an
apostle in his organization.

1520
01:25:13,810 --> 01:25:16,610
So Joel's claims, you know, did
have some weight to some

1521
01:25:16,610 --> 01:25:21,720
individuals.
But you know most.

1522
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:26,440
Like I said, most of the, you
know, ruling already and the

1523
01:25:26,440 --> 01:25:29,160
rest of the council who got that
revelation from Joel didn't

1524
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:31,840
accept it.
So Joel basically organized his

1525
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:35,760
own church from scratch and he
they published a priest that

1526
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:39,120
expounded in 1956, which really
kind of outlines their

1527
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:43,920
priesthood teachings and Erval
Lebaron kind of was the.

1528
01:25:43,960 --> 01:25:47,280
Author of IT and Erval.
Joel was initially trying to

1529
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:51,520
invite Margarita Batista to be
come join and be part of their

1530
01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:53,360
organization.
But Batista didn't.

1531
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:58,400
He thought they were off base.
And so when Batista died, Joel

1532
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:04,200
believed that Batista held the
patriarchal office of Hiram, you

1533
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:07,080
know, the the keys of the office
of presiding patriarch, which

1534
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:08,720
has been passed down the woolly
line.

1535
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:13,680
But Batista died without really
appointing someone, and so Joel

1536
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:18,010
appointed Erval, and I believe
it's 1962, to be the presiding

1537
01:26:18,010 --> 01:26:21,930
patriarch of their organization,
to be kind of under him as the

1538
01:26:22,290 --> 01:26:26,970
second grand head, but very
quickly to get kind of into the

1539
01:26:26,970 --> 01:26:29,250
Erval, the Baron mess that kind
of happened down there in

1540
01:26:29,250 --> 01:26:33,810
Mexico.
Erval eventually came to realize

1541
01:26:33,810 --> 01:26:37,210
from Joseph Smith's teachings
that the presiding patriarch

1542
01:26:37,210 --> 01:26:40,130
wasn't just an office in the
ironic priesthood, that actually

1543
01:26:40,130 --> 01:26:42,890
was a special, significant
office in the melchezmic

1544
01:26:42,890 --> 01:26:45,240
priesthood.
And you can see that when Joseph

1545
01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:49,280
Smith said that the Patriarchal
office is the highest office in

1546
01:26:49,280 --> 01:26:53,440
the church, and Father Smith
conferred that on Hiram on his

1547
01:26:53,440 --> 01:26:58,520
deathbed and Joseph Smith in the
Nabu Temple revelation, DNC124

1548
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:02,480
lists the office of presiding
patriarch first in all the

1549
01:27:02,480 --> 01:27:04,080
offices of the Church
government.

1550
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:07,760
And so Ervil got it in his head,
you know, realizing that he felt

1551
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:10,810
the patriarchal priest had
actually should should preside

1552
01:27:10,810 --> 01:27:13,170
and so the the office of
presiding patriarchs should

1553
01:27:13,170 --> 01:27:14,810
preside.
And so there was kind of a

1554
01:27:14,810 --> 01:27:19,330
conflict in authority between
Erval and Joel starting about

1555
01:27:19,330 --> 01:27:23,970
1970s when it fully came out and
there was a division between

1556
01:27:23,970 --> 01:27:27,770
Erval and Joel over the office
of resigning Patriarch.

1557
01:27:28,290 --> 01:27:33,610
So a couple other aspects of of
Joel's teachings, Joel.

1558
01:27:33,850 --> 01:27:35,250
One thing that was unique was
that.

1559
01:27:35,250 --> 01:27:40,100
He interpreted the DNCI think
it's 131 where it mentions

1560
01:27:40,100 --> 01:27:42,620
there's three degrees in the
celestial Kingdom.

1561
01:27:43,180 --> 01:27:47,540
Joel instead interpreted that as
saying, well, it says 3 degrees

1562
01:27:47,540 --> 01:27:51,340
of glory in the celestial glory,
and Joel instead says there

1563
01:27:51,340 --> 01:27:54,460
aren't actually sub degrees.
Joel believe that they're

1564
01:27:54,460 --> 01:27:58,580
actually that's just referencing
the three degrees of glory and

1565
01:27:58,580 --> 01:28:00,860
you know, the celestial
terrestrial and telestial.

1566
01:28:01,140 --> 01:28:02,820
That's just kind of an
interesting note.

1567
01:28:02,820 --> 01:28:07,180
That was his first interesting
kind of unique teaching he had.

1568
01:28:08,460 --> 01:28:12,660
Joel also was really big on
reestablishing the civil law of

1569
01:28:12,660 --> 01:28:14,580
God as found in the Old
Testament.

1570
01:28:14,940 --> 01:28:17,700
And so when you look at the
Lebarons in Mexico, that's

1571
01:28:17,700 --> 01:28:22,620
something they're really big on,
is restoring this idea of civil

1572
01:28:22,620 --> 01:28:25,220
law.
And they thought that this was

1573
01:28:25,220 --> 01:28:29,340
what, you know, we need to do
to, you know, to establish

1574
01:28:29,420 --> 01:28:32,300
theocracy is kind of what they
emphasized.

1575
01:28:32,380 --> 01:28:35,420
But you got to be really careful
with some of those ideas with

1576
01:28:35,420 --> 01:28:40,230
the Old Testament and restoring
civil law, because there's stuff

1577
01:28:40,230 --> 01:28:42,910
in the Old Testament can be used
to say that false prophets

1578
01:28:42,910 --> 01:28:45,950
should be put to death.
I believe that was part of what

1579
01:28:46,030 --> 01:28:52,310
Ervil used as his justification
to begin killing people was that

1580
01:28:52,350 --> 01:28:55,430
he part of it was that he felt
that a false prophet could be

1581
01:28:55,430 --> 01:28:58,510
put to death and that he
considered Joel to be a false

1582
01:28:58,510 --> 01:29:01,630
prophet based off of their
conflict in their authority.

1583
01:29:01,950 --> 01:29:07,050
And so in 1972, Ervil actually
did succeed in having his

1584
01:29:07,050 --> 01:29:12,130
followers kill Joel and then he
the the this kind of start,

1585
01:29:12,130 --> 01:29:16,490
which was unfortunately just the
start of a very bloody rampage

1586
01:29:16,490 --> 01:29:19,810
where Ervil kind of was going
around demanding tithing from

1587
01:29:19,810 --> 01:29:24,250
everyone in Mormonism, not just
not just in his own little

1588
01:29:24,410 --> 01:29:27,010
circle of followers.
He was thinking that everyone in

1589
01:29:27,010 --> 01:29:31,450
Mormonism needed to ties to him
as he he believed he was the

1590
01:29:31,450 --> 01:29:35,880
head of all civil and priest
authority on earth and he was

1591
01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:38,760
sending he and his was having
his followers send out letters

1592
01:29:38,760 --> 01:29:41,600
basically demanding people
submit to him and and pay

1593
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:44,640
tithing to him.
And if they didn't then they

1594
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:47,440
would get a warning that you
know you're if you're not going

1595
01:29:47,440 --> 01:29:49,200
to do this, you're risk that you
will.

1596
01:29:49,280 --> 01:29:52,880
You are in rebellion to Ervil's
authority and your risk being

1597
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:56,720
put to death.
And so Ervil, you know,

1598
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:59,760
unfortunately started going on
his and his followers started

1599
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:04,160
going on the spree of murders
under the guise of, you know,

1600
01:30:04,160 --> 01:30:06,320
civil law.
And the fact that we can put to

1601
01:30:06,320 --> 01:30:09,440
death people who are in
rebellion to our civil law is

1602
01:30:09,440 --> 01:30:12,200
very, very awful, very ugly,
very evil.

1603
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:16,200
And it brings to mind that
Darrell Lebaron actually had a

1604
01:30:16,200 --> 01:30:20,480
vision that Satan would make war
on his family and attempt to

1605
01:30:20,480 --> 01:30:24,400
destroy his family.
And this is kind of mentioned in

1606
01:30:24,600 --> 01:30:28,240
a history back in 1919, in the
early 1960s.

1607
01:30:28,240 --> 01:30:33,120
So it shows that this vision was
something that the family knew

1608
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:36,720
about long before Ervil started
going down the path that he went

1609
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:39,640
on.
And it's and it seems to me that

1610
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:42,760
Evil Ervil became the main
instrument in the hands to try

1611
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:44,840
to do this.
And unfortunately, it wasn't

1612
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:47,600
limited just to the Lebaron
family, but he felt that any

1613
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:52,680
other competing authority in
Mormonism was a target to be

1614
01:30:52,680 --> 01:30:57,800
liable to be put to death.
And so, after Joel and Ervil

1615
01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:03,040
separated, Joel appointed his
other brother, Verlan, to be the

1616
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:05,080
presiding patriarch in Erval's
stead.

1617
01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:10,200
And so after Joel was killed in
1972, Verlin as the only

1618
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:15,720
remaining presiding office over
the the Mexico Le Barons, He had

1619
01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:17,960
a target out on his head now to
be killed.

1620
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:20,800
You know, Irvil wanted to have
Verlin put to death too.

1621
01:31:21,200 --> 01:31:25,240
And Verlin obviously went into
hiding, and he lived the next

1622
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:30,740
nine years of his life basically
on the run to try to avoid, you

1623
01:31:30,740 --> 01:31:35,780
know, being killed by Erval.
And Erval kind of was he and his

1624
01:31:35,780 --> 01:31:39,860
followers were trying to figure
out a plan to kill Verland.

1625
01:31:39,900 --> 01:31:42,820
And the way that they came up
with it is, you know, one of the

1626
01:31:42,900 --> 01:31:45,420
worst tragedies and
fundamentalist history, in my

1627
01:31:45,420 --> 01:31:50,380
opinion, is that Erval decided
that they should kill.

1628
01:31:50,380 --> 01:31:56,980
Ruin Allred as a way to get to
Verland because Verland was was

1629
01:31:56,980 --> 01:32:02,460
close with with Ruin at a time,
and Verlin had, I believe he

1630
01:32:02,460 --> 01:32:05,620
actually had one of his one or
two of his wives sealed him by

1631
01:32:05,620 --> 01:32:08,820
Ruin Allred and so they were on
friendly terms.

1632
01:32:09,060 --> 01:32:13,900
Verlin and Ruin and so Ervil and
his followers concocted the idea

1633
01:32:13,900 --> 01:32:17,580
to have Can't Get Enough of the
Mormon Renegade podcast.

1634
01:32:17,700 --> 01:32:20,220
Well, good news.
We're on Patreon and there's

1635
01:32:20,220 --> 01:32:21,660
three packages.
That you can choose.

1636
01:32:21,660 --> 01:32:24,780
From the first one, the slightly
rowdy package.

1637
01:32:25,120 --> 01:32:26,960
Allows.
You to hear the podcast without

1638
01:32:26,960 --> 01:32:30,080
all those pesky commercials
getting in the way for those who

1639
01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:33,160
want a slightly more indepth.
There's the Stirring It Up

1640
01:32:33,160 --> 01:32:37,280
package, where you can hear
adfree audio, adfree video and

1641
01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:39,960
transcripts.
Finally, for those who want to

1642
01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:43,320
go full Renegade, that package
is available to where you can

1643
01:32:43,320 --> 01:32:47,080
get everything in the previous
two packages, plus an extra show

1644
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:50,400
where myself and Ben Winfield
break down the news of the day

1645
01:32:50,400 --> 01:32:52,160
from a very Mormon point of
view.

1646
01:32:52,610 --> 01:32:56,610
You will also get exclusive
access to Renegade Chat, and on

1647
01:32:56,610 --> 01:32:58,810
there you'll be able to talk to
others about the show or

1648
01:32:58,810 --> 01:33:00,530
whatever topics are on your
mind.

1649
01:33:07,450 --> 01:33:09,490
And then they could kill Verlin
at Ruin.

1650
01:33:00,890 --> 01:33:05,730
Go to Patreon today and get your
exclusive content Ruin killed so

1651
01:33:05,730 --> 01:33:10,490
that they could get to.
Allred's funeral.

1652
01:33:11,050 --> 01:33:16,930
And so Ervil had two of his
wives go and put, put, shoot,

1653
01:33:16,930 --> 01:33:18,850
shoot, ruin already in his
doctor's office.

1654
01:33:18,850 --> 01:33:23,320
And it's a very awful, disgusing
crime that occurred.

1655
01:33:23,960 --> 01:33:26,720
And they hoped that at Ruin
Allred's funeral, that they

1656
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:30,840
would be able to kill Verlin.
But there was so much security,

1657
01:33:30,840 --> 01:33:35,000
so much police presence there,
that it basically scared off

1658
01:33:35,000 --> 01:33:37,160
Herbal's people to not try to do
it.

1659
01:33:37,680 --> 01:33:40,280
And Verlin didn't realize that
until later on that the whole

1660
01:33:40,280 --> 01:33:42,840
purpose of killing Ruin was to
try to kill Verlin.

1661
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:46,800
Also, what's Ross's?
What's Ross's take on all this?

1662
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:49,840
Right as?
As Ervil goes off the deep end

1663
01:33:49,880 --> 01:33:52,490
and begins this.
Campaign of bloodshed.

1664
01:33:52,490 --> 01:33:55,850
That really is in parallel than
fundamentalism.

1665
01:33:56,410 --> 01:33:58,370
What?
What is Ross saying here?

1666
01:33:58,370 --> 01:34:02,770
I mean, what's Ross doing?
Is Ross trying to find Ervil and

1667
01:34:02,770 --> 01:34:04,690
maybe turn him in?
I mean, what's what's Ross

1668
01:34:04,690 --> 01:34:07,930
doing?
So Ross himself is 1.

1669
01:34:08,170 --> 01:34:11,250
Of the people that Ervil is, put
a hit out and there's a time

1670
01:34:11,250 --> 01:34:14,770
where Ervil Sentman actually
tried to come to Utah and kill

1671
01:34:14,770 --> 01:34:17,930
Ross.
And so Ross kind of had to stay

1672
01:34:17,930 --> 01:34:21,860
kind of in hiding as well.
Erval I think is not actually

1673
01:34:21,860 --> 01:34:25,500
directly you know, he's I think
Erval's keeping his location

1674
01:34:25,500 --> 01:34:29,380
kind of more hidden and he's
having his followers go out and

1675
01:34:29,380 --> 01:34:33,100
be the ones issuing these
threats and executing these

1676
01:34:33,100 --> 01:34:34,740
judge.
You know these death sentences,

1677
01:34:34,740 --> 01:34:39,660
these murders, cold blooded
murders and and so I don't think

1678
01:34:39,660 --> 01:34:41,620
Ross.
Could have been in a position to

1679
01:34:41,700 --> 01:34:46,500
to stop Erval Maude at one point
when when Erbel starting to go

1680
01:34:46,500 --> 01:34:49,260
down this road in the 1970s
before Joel's killed actually

1681
01:34:49,260 --> 01:34:53,820
writes a letter to Erbel begging
him saying you know I've I saw

1682
01:34:53,820 --> 01:34:57,940
your father in a vision at night
and he is deeply concerned about

1683
01:34:57,940 --> 01:35:04,340
the path that things are heading
in this family And and so you

1684
01:35:04,340 --> 01:35:08,900
know Ross was you know Ross kind
of felt that his his brothers

1685
01:35:08,900 --> 01:35:12,020
were false prophets and that
they had established kind of a

1686
01:35:12,020 --> 01:35:15,900
spurious church without divine
authority without true doctrine

1687
01:35:16,340 --> 01:35:18,900
And he kind of felt that they
were just going down this very

1688
01:35:18,900 --> 01:35:23,140
dark Rd. because they went down
this dark Rd. of apostasy and

1689
01:35:23,140 --> 01:35:27,700
doctrine if that makes sense.
So what's interesting with with

1690
01:35:27,700 --> 01:35:30,540
ruling Allred's murder is did
you know that ruling kind of

1691
01:35:30,540 --> 01:35:34,460
actually prophesied that he
would be killed?

1692
01:35:34,890 --> 01:35:35,850
I did.
I did.

1693
01:35:35,850 --> 01:35:39,810
I I had a guy on.
Named Charles Orson that really

1694
01:35:39,810 --> 01:35:43,970
broke that down He he knew all
read when he was a younger man

1695
01:35:44,410 --> 01:35:52,170
and so he he remembers excuse me
ruin making a few claims saying

1696
01:35:52,170 --> 01:35:56,770
hey I I don't think I'm long for
this world Yeah yeah.

1697
01:35:56,770 --> 01:35:59,050
So ruling, ruling actually in
the some of the speeches

1698
01:35:59,050 --> 01:36:02,170
actually does mention that that
he says I I think that I might

1699
01:36:02,170 --> 01:36:05,810
not live very long just, you
know, be aware that, you know, I

1700
01:36:05,810 --> 01:36:08,370
could be killed because these
threats that Herbal was making

1701
01:36:08,370 --> 01:36:10,850
was very public.
He was even threatening the head

1702
01:36:10,850 --> 01:36:13,210
of the LDS Church.
I think it was Spencer W Kimball

1703
01:36:13,210 --> 01:36:16,250
at that time.
And you know, Spencer W Kimball

1704
01:36:16,250 --> 01:36:19,290
had to have additional security
because of the threats that

1705
01:36:19,290 --> 01:36:22,770
Herbal was making.
So Rulan, I saw this in an

1706
01:36:22,770 --> 01:36:25,730
article.
By his one of his daughters

1707
01:36:25,730 --> 01:36:30,770
Dorothy Allred Solomon she wrote
that that her dad Rulan actually

1708
01:36:30,770 --> 01:36:34,620
wrote in his journal on May 10th
1975.

1709
01:36:34,940 --> 01:36:38,420
I and she put some quotes.
I have two years to get my

1710
01:36:38,420 --> 01:36:42,020
affairs in order exact quote
from the journal and so I have

1711
01:36:42,020 --> 01:36:46,700
two years to get my affairs in
order two years to that exact

1712
01:36:46,700 --> 01:36:50,860
day ruling was killed.
So he prophet he he he knew he

1713
01:36:51,020 --> 01:36:54,980
had a premonition and revelation
that his time on earth was short

1714
01:36:54,980 --> 01:37:01,100
and he wrote it in his journal.
So very tragic what what

1715
01:37:01,100 --> 01:37:04,760
happened there.
So Ervil finally gets arrested

1716
01:37:05,000 --> 01:37:09,400
and and kind of in.
In 1979, he was apprehended by

1717
01:37:09,400 --> 01:37:12,360
police in Mexico and he was
extradited to the United States,

1718
01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:17,120
where he was convicted of having
ordered ruling Allred's death in

1719
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:21,120
1980, he was sentenced to life
in prison at the Utah State

1720
01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:25,720
Prison in Draper, UT, where he
ultimately died on August 16th,

1721
01:37:25,720 --> 01:37:28,720
1981.
So what's interesting is they

1722
01:37:28,720 --> 01:37:31,600
say that his murder was a
suicide is what this official

1723
01:37:31,600 --> 01:37:36,320
cause of death is, But it from
stories that have been told in

1724
01:37:36,320 --> 01:37:39,880
various circles and
fundamentalism is that Ervil was

1725
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:43,800
actually from prison, still
trying to order hits on people

1726
01:37:44,160 --> 01:37:47,080
like he was.
And he was actually trying to

1727
01:37:47,080 --> 01:37:50,680
organize prisoners in prison
into his own evil church.

1728
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:52,920
You know, his church's name was
the Church of the Lamb of God.

1729
01:37:52,920 --> 01:37:55,960
You know, totally terrible
taking, you know, the name of

1730
01:37:56,500 --> 01:37:59,940
the Christ Church has given in
the Book of Mormon and using it

1731
01:37:59,940 --> 01:38:03,140
for such evil purposes.
So it seems like he was

1732
01:38:03,140 --> 01:38:06,380
gathering followers in prison,
was kind of organizing kind of

1733
01:38:06,380 --> 01:38:11,180
his own prison church.
And this apparently scared and

1734
01:38:11,180 --> 01:38:14,420
concerned the prison guards
enough that's reported that the

1735
01:38:14,420 --> 01:38:19,180
prison guards actually killed
Erval and made it look like a

1736
01:38:19,180 --> 01:38:23,500
suicide, you know, basically got
Epstein right, which I think he

1737
01:38:23,500 --> 01:38:25,740
definitely deserved.
If he was still a threat to

1738
01:38:25,740 --> 01:38:29,570
people from prison, I was going
to say I'm not going to shed

1739
01:38:29,610 --> 01:38:33,970
very many tears for.
So I mean, he he he's got this

1740
01:38:33,970 --> 01:38:37,530
coming.
Yeah, he he was.

1741
01:38:37,530 --> 01:38:39,570
One of the things that his
followers did was they actually

1742
01:38:39,570 --> 01:38:43,450
tried having car sabotage where
they would do something to A

1743
01:38:43,450 --> 01:38:45,650
cause of steering to disconnect
in vehicles.

1744
01:38:46,330 --> 01:38:49,250
They they would loosen whatever
nut is holding it on to the

1745
01:38:49,250 --> 01:38:51,850
point where it's just barely
connecting.

1746
01:38:51,850 --> 01:38:56,040
You know, the the, the controls
of the steering or something

1747
01:38:56,040 --> 01:38:57,600
like that.
I'm not really a mechanic, so I

1748
01:38:57,600 --> 01:39:00,320
can't really tell the exact
mechanism of how they did it,

1749
01:39:00,320 --> 01:39:03,360
but basically they set up
people's cars to get into fatal

1750
01:39:03,360 --> 01:39:08,600
accidents, you know, and Fred
Collier actually recalled that

1751
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:13,320
he had an experience where he's
driving down State Street and

1752
01:39:13,320 --> 01:39:16,040
all of a.
Sudden his car just veered off.

1753
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:22,030
You know, suddenly into a car
dealership lot in Salt Lake.

1754
01:39:22,030 --> 01:39:25,030
And fortunately he said he was
not driving very fast.

1755
01:39:25,230 --> 01:39:28,110
And so he was able to, you know,
hit on the brakes and just

1756
01:39:28,270 --> 01:39:32,350
barely touch, you know, one of
the cars in this, this car lot.

1757
01:39:32,790 --> 01:39:34,390
And he's went and saw what was
done.

1758
01:39:34,390 --> 01:39:37,710
And he's like, this isn't a
ordinary car malfunction.

1759
01:39:37,710 --> 01:39:39,750
This had to be some sort of
sabotage.

1760
01:39:40,190 --> 01:39:43,630
And so, you know, the Irv's
followers had had sent in kind

1761
01:39:43,630 --> 01:39:47,870
of death threats to Ross, to
Steve Yorkman and to Fred, who

1762
01:39:47,870 --> 01:39:50,180
were kind of Fred and Steve were
the guys who were usually

1763
01:39:50,180 --> 01:39:53,820
hanging out with with Ross
Lebaron in the late, you know,

1764
01:39:53,820 --> 01:39:58,300
1970s, another person who might
have.

1765
01:39:58,300 --> 01:40:01,820
Had his car sabotage, is that
ruling Jeff's on?

1766
01:40:01,820 --> 01:40:05,220
The old fundamentalist council
apparently got in a really bad

1767
01:40:05,220 --> 01:40:09,260
car accident about the same time
in the mid 70s I think.

1768
01:40:09,500 --> 01:40:14,020
So the question comes up, could
he have been had his car

1769
01:40:14,020 --> 01:40:18,130
sabotaged as well?
And we do know that this, this

1770
01:40:18,130 --> 01:40:20,090
is interesting.
This is the very same day that

1771
01:40:20,130 --> 01:40:25,890
Ervil Lebaron died, his brother
Verlan in Mexico, who's the head

1772
01:40:25,890 --> 01:40:27,850
of, you know, Joel's church at
that point?

1773
01:40:28,290 --> 01:40:32,890
Verlan gets killed the exact
same day as Ervil by in an auto

1774
01:40:32,890 --> 01:40:37,050
accident in Mexico City.
And so, you know, I've, you

1775
01:40:37,050 --> 01:40:41,570
know, I believe that Verlin
probably had his car sabotage as

1776
01:40:41,570 --> 01:40:43,930
well and that's what caused
Verlin to get killed.

1777
01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:47,960
So Verlin, I know it's really
too bad.

1778
01:40:48,120 --> 01:40:49,600
I thought about this a little
bit.

1779
01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:53,200
It's too bad there wasn't a way.
Ervil and Warren Jeffs couldn't

1780
01:40:53,200 --> 01:40:56,200
have just taken each other out.
To me, that would have been the

1781
01:40:56,240 --> 01:41:02,800
most ideal scenario ever, right?
Like, you know, they sabotage

1782
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:06,320
Warren's car.
And then Warren runs over Ervil,

1783
01:41:06,320 --> 01:41:08,400
and then Warren runs right off a
Cliff.

1784
01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:09,840
I'm like that.
Nobody else.

1785
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:15,980
Nobody else.
No, no, just those two A holes.

1786
01:41:16,260 --> 01:41:17,380
Just.
Done.

1787
01:41:17,860 --> 01:41:20,420
That to me would have been the
best takeout ever.

1788
01:41:20,540 --> 01:41:25,420
But yeah, so you.
Know what's interesting is, you

1789
01:41:25,420 --> 01:41:28,380
know, Verlin and I understand
was actually very reluctant to

1790
01:41:28,380 --> 01:41:32,740
lead the church.
Like Fred Collier told me, he

1791
01:41:32,740 --> 01:41:37,100
knew Verlin and he said that
Verlin was had a really sane

1792
01:41:37,100 --> 01:41:39,660
head on his shoulders and that
Verlin really didn't want to get

1793
01:41:39,660 --> 01:41:45,930
involved with, you know, leading
being in a leadership position

1794
01:41:45,930 --> 01:41:53,090
of Joel's church.
I mean, you don't have very long

1795
01:41:53,090 --> 01:41:48,330
at that point.
And so it was very hassle

1796
01:41:48,410 --> 01:41:50,930
because your life expectancy
becomes that of a fruit.

1797
01:41:54,890 --> 01:41:58,250
Yeah, yeah, so.
So Verlin was very hesitant.

1798
01:41:58,290 --> 01:42:02,610
And apparently this is according
to a friend of mine who said he

1799
01:42:02,610 --> 01:42:05,810
interviewed one of Verlin's
sons.

1800
01:42:05,810 --> 01:42:08,850
He said before Verlin went to
Mexico City, which is where he

1801
01:42:08,850 --> 01:42:12,600
died, he told his sons, if I
don't come back and appoint A

1802
01:42:12,600 --> 01:42:15,520
successor, then just know that
Joel was a good man.

1803
01:42:15,520 --> 01:42:19,000
But we went barking up the wrong
tree and I do not want you to

1804
01:42:19,000 --> 01:42:22,240
carry any of this on.
Teach your children to honor God

1805
01:42:22,240 --> 01:42:26,000
and keep his commandments, but
do not carry any of this on i.e.

1806
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:29,520
the work that Joel had started.
And so this was told by a son

1807
01:42:29,520 --> 01:42:33,120
who was there at this meeting of
of of with Verland sons.

1808
01:42:33,480 --> 01:42:36,080
And he said that Verland died,
you know, a week later, less

1809
01:42:36,080 --> 01:42:38,200
than a week later.
And so without appointing A

1810
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:40,440
successor.
And so this really kind of

1811
01:42:41,530 --> 01:42:47,490
decapitated the head of the I'm
sorry to use a morbid analogy of

1812
01:42:47,570 --> 01:42:50,610
the Joel La Baron's church
organization because they

1813
01:42:50,610 --> 01:42:54,050
centered all their beliefs on
Priested above the church as

1814
01:42:54,050 --> 01:42:57,010
just being 2 self perpetuating
offices.

1815
01:42:57,010 --> 01:42:59,970
The presiding patriarch, which
can, needs to appoint its direct

1816
01:42:59,970 --> 01:43:02,680
successor.
And then the head of the priest

1817
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:05,640
of the right of the first born,
which needs to appoint its

1818
01:43:05,640 --> 01:43:08,280
direct successor.
And so without, with Joel dying

1819
01:43:08,280 --> 01:43:12,560
without appointing A successor
and Florin dying without not

1820
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:15,840
Florin, excuse me, Verland dying
without appointing A successor,

1821
01:43:16,080 --> 01:43:19,480
it left them kind of feeling
like they lost full priest and

1822
01:43:19,480 --> 01:43:22,040
authority.
And it's A and it really is a

1823
01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:25,360
shame that you know they were
put in this kind of, you know,

1824
01:43:25,360 --> 01:43:29,080
precarious Priested situation.
It really brings to mind James

1825
01:43:29,080 --> 01:43:33,250
String and it's taking this idea
of the one man doctrine over the

1826
01:43:33,250 --> 01:43:37,170
priesthood to a very terrible
extreme where you're thinking

1827
01:43:37,290 --> 01:43:41,170
everything is concentrated in
this guy and if he dies, we are

1828
01:43:41,170 --> 01:43:43,530
just totally screwed and we
don't have any authority.

1829
01:43:43,530 --> 01:43:47,490
You know, is is kind and so Joel
really kind of.

1830
01:43:47,490 --> 01:43:52,050
I felt paralleled James Strang
in this regard because James

1831
01:43:52,050 --> 01:43:55,370
Strang taught there is only one
prophet, you know, He's so much

1832
01:43:55,370 --> 01:43:58,090
bigger on.
Everything's concentrated in the

1833
01:43:58,090 --> 01:44:00,880
prophet then Brigham Young was,
Brigham Young said.

1834
01:44:00,920 --> 01:44:04,600
I work with a quorum.
I have the 12 apostles with me

1835
01:44:04,600 --> 01:44:08,240
united in my decisions.
I'm not saying that Brigham

1836
01:44:08,240 --> 01:44:10,760
Young didn't think that he was.
The guy who was the mouthpiece

1837
01:44:10,760 --> 01:44:13,960
and the prophet who presided.
But he said that he was his

1838
01:44:13,960 --> 01:44:16,960
power was from working with
other people and not just

1839
01:44:16,960 --> 01:44:18,560
concentrating everything in
himself.

1840
01:44:19,840 --> 01:44:22,800
In contrast, James String really
concentrated everything himself.

1841
01:44:22,800 --> 01:44:26,440
He said that to be the prophet
of God, you have to be ordained

1842
01:44:26,800 --> 01:44:29,390
by an Angel, you know, after
the.

1843
01:44:29,390 --> 01:44:32,430
Last prophet dies, you know, you
basically have to be ordained

1844
01:44:32,430 --> 01:44:36,470
the next successor.
And so Joel, not Joel, James

1845
01:44:36,470 --> 01:44:41,310
Strang gets killed by a follower
of, you know, disgruntled

1846
01:44:41,310 --> 01:44:45,030
former, former follower.
And there isn't somebody who's

1847
01:44:45,030 --> 01:44:46,670
ordained the next prophet by an
Angel.

1848
01:44:46,670 --> 01:44:51,270
And so James Strang's church
kind of falls wayward and kind

1849
01:44:51,270 --> 01:44:54,190
of, you know, loses its steam
after James Strang's death.

1850
01:44:54,190 --> 01:44:57,260
And it really just kind of, you
know, there there's a few string

1851
01:44:57,260 --> 01:45:00,860
guides left, but it's, you know,
it's never as big as the, you

1852
01:45:00,860 --> 01:45:03,780
know, he had several thousand
or, you know, close to several

1853
01:45:03,780 --> 01:45:08,060
thousand people at his high
point in the early 918 fifties.

1854
01:45:08,340 --> 01:45:12,260
So what's interesting is Joel
actually similarly got a ton of

1855
01:45:12,260 --> 01:45:16,780
followers initially, you know, I
guess because Joel decided to go

1856
01:45:16,780 --> 01:45:20,580
big and all of his claims, you
know, that apparently was, you

1857
01:45:20,580 --> 01:45:22,580
know, attracted a lot of people
to his movement.

1858
01:45:22,860 --> 01:45:26,330
I also think it might have been
the Mexican, not Mexican, the

1859
01:45:27,050 --> 01:45:30,730
the French missionaries who all
became fundamentalist and came

1860
01:45:30,730 --> 01:45:33,810
back to the United States and
they became big missionaries for

1861
01:45:33,890 --> 01:45:37,610
for Joel's organization and they
converted I think hundreds of

1862
01:45:37,610 --> 01:45:40,610
people.
And so I was listening to an

1863
01:45:40,610 --> 01:45:43,770
interview by one of Ruin
Allred's sons and he mentioned

1864
01:45:43,770 --> 01:45:46,410
that it was just amazing at that
point of time.

1865
01:45:46,970 --> 01:45:51,250
There were so few people in the
in this is the early 1960s who

1866
01:45:51,650 --> 01:45:54,890
accept in most of the
fundamentalists stuck with kind

1867
01:45:54,890 --> 01:45:57,490
of the old council.
He said The number of people who

1868
01:45:57,490 --> 01:46:01,010
accepted my father ruling Allred
could basically all fit in a

1869
01:46:01,010 --> 01:46:03,770
living room.
Who who who accepted his calling

1870
01:46:03,770 --> 01:46:06,810
and his priest acclaim.
And he said that the Mexican

1871
01:46:06,810 --> 01:46:10,530
Lebrons converted tons of people
to fundamentalism.

1872
01:46:10,770 --> 01:46:14,050
But then he said they would go
down to Mexico and they got to

1873
01:46:14,050 --> 01:46:16,010
see kind of the problems down
there.

1874
01:46:16,290 --> 01:46:18,810
And I think, you know definitely
when things went violent, I

1875
01:46:18,810 --> 01:46:23,770
think that also caused a lot of
people to to to to be looking

1876
01:46:23,770 --> 01:46:28,490
for other places to be right.
You know that a lot of so the.

1877
01:46:28,490 --> 01:46:30,970
Son of ruin said that a lot of
people who were initially

1878
01:46:30,970 --> 01:46:34,250
attracted to fundamentalism and
went down to Mexico and and

1879
01:46:34,250 --> 01:46:37,930
found Joel's church but then the
work satisfied with it they

1880
01:46:37,930 --> 01:46:42,330
eventually all you know a lot of
them ended up joining the Allred

1881
01:46:42,410 --> 01:46:47,770
community the a UB and and he
said that was a big source of

1882
01:46:47,770 --> 01:46:51,450
the growth of our group
indirectly was from all these

1883
01:46:51,450 --> 01:46:54,210
people that you know went you
know they got converted to

1884
01:46:54,210 --> 01:46:57,010
fundamentalism through the
Lebarons but then decided that

1885
01:46:57,010 --> 01:46:59,930
they didn't want to follow the
Lebarons in Mexico.

1886
01:47:00,610 --> 01:47:05,370
So some may say that you know
this all this all these problems

1887
01:47:05,490 --> 01:47:10,570
that that happened under, you
know with with all this violence

1888
01:47:10,570 --> 01:47:13,890
happened with herbal.
You know does that disprove the

1889
01:47:13,890 --> 01:47:15,890
Lebaron family's claim to
authority.

1890
01:47:16,330 --> 01:47:19,750
And I would, I would actually
say no, not anymore and not

1891
01:47:19,750 --> 01:47:22,870
anymore than all the problems
with the families and Genesis

1892
01:47:22,870 --> 01:47:25,790
would disprove those families
claims to authority, you know,

1893
01:47:26,950 --> 01:47:30,750
or what happened with Lehigh's
family where things broke up and

1894
01:47:30,750 --> 01:47:33,590
there was threats of violence
between, you know, Layman and

1895
01:47:33,590 --> 01:47:36,230
Lemuel against the five and the
other brothers.

1896
01:47:36,230 --> 01:47:40,950
So a couple quotes on this by a
couple of the Lebaron brothers.

1897
01:47:40,950 --> 01:47:44,350
So Florin one time told his dad
he said you have a layman and

1898
01:47:44,350 --> 01:47:46,380
Lemuel in your family and his
father.

1899
01:47:46,620 --> 01:47:49,900
His father dare replied yes, but
I also have a Nephi, a Jacob, a

1900
01:47:49,900 --> 01:47:53,740
Joseph and a Sam.
So Ross one time comments in an

1901
01:47:53,740 --> 01:47:55,740
interview and said it's true
that the Lebaron brothers have

1902
01:47:55,740 --> 01:47:59,460
committed many crimes.
So did the sons of Jacob and

1903
01:47:59,460 --> 01:48:00,780
Joel.
Lebaron said just because the

1904
01:48:00,780 --> 01:48:03,900
sons of Jacob wanted to kill
Joseph doesn't prove that Jacob

1905
01:48:03,900 --> 01:48:05,700
didn't hold the patriarchal
office.

1906
01:48:05,980 --> 01:48:09,020
Just because Kane killed Abel
doesn't prove that Adam did.

1907
01:48:09,540 --> 01:48:12,420
The Adam held no priest
authority and just because Satan

1908
01:48:12,420 --> 01:48:15,470
has tried to destroy our family
completely doesn't prove that

1909
01:48:15,470 --> 01:48:17,230
Daryl Lebaron held no priests
authority.

1910
01:48:17,470 --> 01:48:19,710
On the contrary, history has
shown us that where the power of

1911
01:48:19,710 --> 01:48:23,550
God is the greatest, their
Satan's power is the strongest

1912
01:48:23,550 --> 01:48:27,990
manifested as well.
So there are still plenty of I

1913
01:48:27,990 --> 01:48:30,990
think there's still hundreds of
people who believe in Joel's

1914
01:48:30,990 --> 01:48:35,070
teachings and his claims.
There's still some in in

1915
01:48:35,270 --> 01:48:37,510
colonial Lebaron.
There's some throughout the

1916
01:48:37,510 --> 01:48:40,350
United States.
There's also other colonies that

1917
01:48:40,350 --> 01:48:44,220
that Joel started and you know,
throughout I think Mexico and

1918
01:48:44,220 --> 01:48:47,100
then going even South of Mexico,
as I understand.

1919
01:48:47,380 --> 01:48:50,180
And so there are still people
who who believe in Joel's

1920
01:48:50,420 --> 01:48:53,540
teachings and his claims around.
They just, you know, don't think

1921
01:48:53,540 --> 01:48:56,220
they have, you know, the highest
priesthood anymore with their

1922
01:48:56,220 --> 01:49:00,220
organization.
So kind of getting back to.

1923
01:49:00,220 --> 01:49:04,660
Ross Lebaron after.
That, you know tangent Ross

1924
01:49:04,660 --> 01:49:08,860
initially tried to teaching
about the patriarchal priesthood

1925
01:49:09,100 --> 01:49:11,460
to the main 2 main
fundamentalist groups.

1926
01:49:11,840 --> 01:49:15,120
You know the old council in
Short Creek and then you know

1927
01:49:15,120 --> 01:49:17,960
the new council under Messer and
the A UB were a bit more

1928
01:49:17,960 --> 01:49:21,800
friendlier to him.
I think you know they according

1929
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:25,680
to Ross Rulan and Owen actually
in 1952 kind of asked muster.

1930
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:27,480
They're like did you ordain Ross
to anything?

1931
01:49:27,480 --> 01:49:30,600
Because you know, Ross's story
can kind of raise eyebrows.

1932
01:49:30,600 --> 01:49:33,360
Did muster ordained Ross to
anything and muster says no.

1933
01:49:33,360 --> 01:49:36,760
I didn't give him any authority.
I just confirmed what he says

1934
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:39,880
his dad gave him.
You know it's kind of what the

1935
01:49:39,880 --> 01:49:43,860
all Reds were you know the but I
think that the ruling and Owen

1936
01:49:43,860 --> 01:49:48,380
were not as quite friendly to to
Ross as say Musser was to to

1937
01:49:48,380 --> 01:49:51,580
Ross and dare.
You know they they you know they

1938
01:49:51,620 --> 01:49:54,580
they were friendly to a degree
in the 1950s and and even a

1939
01:49:54,580 --> 01:49:57,940
little bit later on but you know
they they disagreed with his

1940
01:49:57,940 --> 01:50:01,540
priesthood line and so this kind
of Bob Evie kind of actually

1941
01:50:02,220 --> 01:50:03,860
mentions this and some of his
stuff.

1942
01:50:03,860 --> 01:50:07,220
So Bob Evie was part of musser
school of the prophets.

1943
01:50:07,220 --> 01:50:11,440
He was described for many of the
a UB meetings and in a kind of

1944
01:50:11,440 --> 01:50:15,160
conversation he has with the All
Red Council he kind of mentions

1945
01:50:15,400 --> 01:50:19,000
that you know, muster was always
friendly to Ross and you know

1946
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:22,760
would let him speak his piece
and to you know respect his his

1947
01:50:22,760 --> 01:50:25,360
right to you know to to share
his beliefs.

1948
01:50:25,360 --> 01:50:28,240
And so I think we should be open
to it as well.

1949
01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:32,600
So the old council in Short
Creek apparently was less

1950
01:50:32,600 --> 01:50:36,100
friendly.
They kind of told Ross to to get

1951
01:50:36,100 --> 01:50:37,900
the heck out and don't come
back.

1952
01:50:37,900 --> 01:50:39,820
It's kind of what what Ross
said.

1953
01:50:40,100 --> 01:50:42,780
So he said that, you know, he
said that.

1954
01:50:42,860 --> 01:50:46,340
I think Marion Hammond actually
was the one who who said that to

1955
01:50:46,340 --> 01:50:49,780
him.
And Ross kind of interestingly

1956
01:50:49,820 --> 01:50:53,580
warned him.
He said that if when an

1957
01:50:53,580 --> 01:50:57,780
organization kicks out all the
free thinkers and only keeps Yes

1958
01:50:57,820 --> 01:50:59,980
Men, it will soon come to an
end.

1959
01:51:00,380 --> 01:51:04,840
And interestingly what happens
is you know Hammond and another

1960
01:51:05,040 --> 01:51:09,120
the other council member get
dismissed, you know as the old

1961
01:51:09,440 --> 01:51:13,280
the old council under Leroy
Johnson and ruin Jeff's kind of

1962
01:51:13,280 --> 01:51:17,280
goes in a more you know
centralized you know one man

1963
01:51:17,280 --> 01:51:20,360
rule direction.
And so, you know, it is kind of

1964
01:51:20,360 --> 01:51:24,040
ironic that Ross kind of warned
him that you know that if if you

1965
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:26,680
don't permit free, free, think
thinkers, you know the

1966
01:51:26,680 --> 01:51:29,200
organization will eventually
come to an end.

1967
01:51:31,040 --> 01:51:32,690
So.
Bob, Evie, I want to talk a

1968
01:51:32,690 --> 01:51:35,490
little bit about him since he
was a significant early follower

1969
01:51:35,490 --> 01:51:39,050
of Ross.
So Evie kind of felt that his,

1970
01:51:39,570 --> 01:51:42,850
he kind of felt that he had a
special birthright and that kind

1971
01:51:42,850 --> 01:51:46,210
of made him connect with Ross.
Evie kind of felt that he was

1972
01:51:46,210 --> 01:51:50,370
the heir of Levi and he felt
that he was the heir of the the

1973
01:51:50,370 --> 01:51:54,410
Evie nights, which he thought
were kind of descended from the

1974
01:51:54,410 --> 01:51:57,210
tribe of Levi.
And so he kind of related to

1975
01:51:57,210 --> 01:51:59,970
Ross, kind of claiming to be the
birthright Joseph Smith.

1976
01:52:00,490 --> 01:52:03,810
So I already talked.
About kind of his background.

1977
01:52:03,970 --> 01:52:08,730
One thing that drew Evie to Ross
was Evie hadn't ever received

1978
01:52:08,730 --> 01:52:12,370
his endowments in the church,
and so he really wanted to

1979
01:52:12,370 --> 01:52:17,410
receive his endowments.
But ruling Allred and Owen.

1980
01:52:17,410 --> 01:52:20,290
Allred at that time basically
said we don't do endowments

1981
01:52:20,290 --> 01:52:22,210
right now.
You know, if you need your we

1982
01:52:22,210 --> 01:52:25,290
only tell people to go get their
their endowments in the church.

1983
01:52:25,650 --> 01:52:28,610
And one thing that Evie found
attractive about Ross was that

1984
01:52:28,610 --> 01:52:32,140
Ross claimed if you have the
authority to do endowments, you

1985
01:52:32,140 --> 01:52:35,540
said if you have the person,
people who know how to do the

1986
01:52:35,540 --> 01:52:39,700
ordinances and knowledgeable
about how to do them properly.

1987
01:52:39,700 --> 01:52:42,180
Then you can do the ordinances
in the right way.

1988
01:52:42,820 --> 01:52:47,740
And so Bob, EB, and and Rob us
eventually did do endowments,

1989
01:52:47,780 --> 01:52:51,500
and they did also perform second
anointings, but generally due to

1990
01:52:51,500 --> 01:52:55,540
the absence of a temple or even
kind of a temporary temple in

1991
01:52:55,540 --> 01:52:58,580
place like an endowment house.
For the most part, Lebaron is

1992
01:52:58,580 --> 01:53:02,500
focused more on simply
ordinations to the keys, and

1993
01:53:02,500 --> 01:53:06,420
then a man could do temple
ordinances for their families as

1994
01:53:06,420 --> 01:53:11,100
they feel are necessary and are
directed to do them so, but from

1995
01:53:11,100 --> 01:53:14,860
the beginning and Lebaron.
Is one thing that well, I would

1996
01:53:14,860 --> 01:53:17,300
say the beginning.
But definitely one thing that

1997
01:53:17,300 --> 01:53:21,660
comes up very early in in Ross's
ministry is this emphasis on

1998
01:53:21,660 --> 01:53:23,780
understanding the temple
ordinances.

1999
01:53:24,200 --> 01:53:29,440
And so Ross's students who were
attracted to his claims were

2000
01:53:29,440 --> 01:53:31,520
really big temple ordinance
researchers.

2001
01:53:32,880 --> 01:53:36,480
Ross attracted, besides Bobby,
the other significant

2002
01:53:36,480 --> 01:53:40,200
researchers and historians in
fundamentalism, names such as

2003
01:53:40,200 --> 01:53:44,720
Fred Collier, Robert Black, Knut
Knutson, and Tom Green, who all

2004
01:53:44,800 --> 01:53:48,640
were, you know, each had, you
know, some interest in Mormon

2005
01:53:48,640 --> 01:53:52,200
history and interest in the
researching and under

2006
01:53:52,510 --> 01:53:54,750
understanding the temple
ordinances, particularly the

2007
01:53:55,150 --> 01:53:57,230
endowment ceremony and the 2nd
Anointing.

2008
01:53:57,950 --> 01:54:02,310
So to get into some of.
Ross's unique priesthood

2009
01:54:02,310 --> 01:54:06,590
teachings that I think are
important to understand is that

2010
01:54:06,590 --> 01:54:09,430
Ross was really kind of, I
think, restored this

2011
01:54:09,430 --> 01:54:14,310
understanding of there being 2
distinct orders of the Melchezic

2012
01:54:14,310 --> 01:54:18,470
priesthood.
He said this was in 1967 that he

2013
01:54:18,470 --> 01:54:21,150
had this revelation that the
priesthood of Peter, James and

2014
01:54:21,150 --> 01:54:25,150
John and the priests of Moses
and Elias and Elijah were two

2015
01:54:25,150 --> 01:54:27,870
distinct orders of Melchized
priesthood.

2016
01:54:28,230 --> 01:54:30,710
So Peter, James, and John
restored the priesthood of the

2017
01:54:30,710 --> 01:54:34,270
Son pertained to the Church of
Christ, while Moses, Elias, and

2018
01:54:34,270 --> 01:54:37,950
Elijah restored the priesthood
of the Father, and it was the

2019
01:54:37,950 --> 01:54:41,070
priest of the Holy Order of God.
And thus logically, the Church

2020
01:54:41,070 --> 01:54:43,830
of the first born is the Church
of God the Father.

2021
01:54:44,310 --> 01:54:48,270
And so expanding on this
revelation, Ross was able to

2022
01:54:48,270 --> 01:54:51,520
teach that, you know, the
endowment, the four signs and

2023
01:54:51,520 --> 01:54:54,600
tokens of the endowment
represent four different orders

2024
01:54:55,040 --> 01:54:58,440
of priesthood, 2 ironic orders
and a lower ironic and a higher

2025
01:54:58,440 --> 01:55:01,600
ironic, the lower Melchized and
a higher Melchized.

2026
01:55:02,680 --> 01:55:06,920
And then, you know, so this kind
of really kind of restored the

2027
01:55:06,920 --> 01:55:09,960
knowledge of, you know, these
higher orders of priesthood

2028
01:55:09,960 --> 01:55:14,400
that, you know, kind of like I
mentioned had got lost in Utah

2029
01:55:14,400 --> 01:55:17,400
Mormonism because the apostles
weren't very explicit about

2030
01:55:17,400 --> 01:55:20,290
teaching it.
So in January of 19 Said when

2031
01:55:20,290 --> 01:55:22,730
Ross received another revelation
about the highest order piece

2032
01:55:22,730 --> 01:55:26,330
said called the Order of the
Messiah, and Fred Collier

2033
01:55:26,330 --> 01:55:29,170
actually wrote about it this
experience in this revelation in

2034
01:55:29,170 --> 01:55:33,010
his research journal.
So he wrote Ross's brother Joel

2035
01:55:33,010 --> 01:55:35,290
claimed to hold the office of
Moses or Malkesic, which he

2036
01:55:35,290 --> 01:55:37,370
claimed to get from his father
Alma Dee le Baron.

2037
01:55:37,370 --> 01:55:39,890
Ross never can understand this
part of Joseph's discourse.

2038
01:55:40,050 --> 01:55:42,970
What order of priesthood was
above the order which Elijah

2039
01:55:42,970 --> 01:55:45,330
restored?
A day or two later I saw Ross

2040
01:55:45,330 --> 01:55:47,370
again and at long last we had
his answer.

2041
01:55:47,770 --> 01:55:50,530
After that evening, after I left
Ross, I very earnestly

2042
01:55:50,530 --> 01:55:54,090
approached God in prayer and
asked the Lord to reveal to him

2043
01:55:54,090 --> 01:55:57,490
the answer to this question,
which is so long perplexed him

2044
01:55:57,650 --> 01:55:59,930
and God answered his prayer.
Light and knowledge poured into

2045
01:55:59,930 --> 01:56:01,530
his mind concerning that what he
desired.

2046
01:56:01,850 --> 01:56:04,050
The next time I saw Ross a day
or so later, he told me the

2047
01:56:04,050 --> 01:56:06,730
answer to the question The
fullness of the Melchized

2048
01:56:06,810 --> 01:56:12,090
priesthood that Melchized held
was the order of the Messiah,

2049
01:56:12,090 --> 01:56:15,010
which Joseph mentioned in
another one of his discourses

2050
01:56:15,370 --> 01:56:17,890
and teachings, the Prophet
Joseph Smith, page 340.

2051
01:56:18,170 --> 01:56:20,370
And it's above the spirit and
power of Elijah.

2052
01:56:20,770 --> 01:56:23,770
And this order of priesthood
could only be received by direct

2053
01:56:23,770 --> 01:56:26,050
revelation from Christ upon
another.

2054
01:56:26,690 --> 01:56:28,530
So they then Fred continues
writing.

2055
01:56:28,530 --> 01:56:30,810
The proper order of things for
receiving this order of

2056
01:56:30,810 --> 01:56:33,450
priesthood is that a man should
receive the patriarchal

2057
01:56:33,450 --> 01:56:36,450
priesthood and his second
anointing, and then when it was

2058
01:56:36,450 --> 01:56:39,570
time, the Lord would appear to
him and ordain him to this order

2059
01:56:39,570 --> 01:56:41,530
of priesthood.
When Ross told me this, I

2060
01:56:41,530 --> 01:56:44,210
remembered reading something
about Mokesic out of a book by

2061
01:56:44,210 --> 01:56:46,930
John Taylor several months
before, which meant nothing to

2062
01:56:46,930 --> 01:56:49,480
me at the time.
But for some reason, even though

2063
01:56:49,480 --> 01:56:51,720
I did not remember what it said
other than being about

2064
01:56:51,720 --> 01:56:54,680
Melcheznik and the great powers
of the priest in which he held,

2065
01:56:55,200 --> 01:56:58,440
I went and got the book out and
showed read it down the place

2066
01:56:58,440 --> 01:57:00,480
and read it to Ross.
It was in John Taylor's book

2067
01:57:00,480 --> 01:57:02,840
Mediation Atonement.
I found that what I was looking

2068
01:57:02,840 --> 01:57:06,120
for was an an excerpt from the
inspired version of the Bible by

2069
01:57:06,120 --> 01:57:09,160
Joseph Smith, and an edition
which Joseph had added to

2070
01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:14,900
Genesis 14 verses 26 to 29.
Speaking of Melchez, he says he

2071
01:57:14,900 --> 01:57:17,700
was ordained a high priest after
the order of the covenant which

2072
01:57:17,700 --> 01:57:19,940
God made with Enoch.
It being after the order of the

2073
01:57:19,940 --> 01:57:23,140
Son of God, which order came not
by man nor will of man, neither

2074
01:57:23,140 --> 01:57:26,060
by father nor mother, neither by
beginning of days nor end of

2075
01:57:26,060 --> 01:57:29,700
years, but of God was delivered
unto men by the calling of his

2076
01:57:29,700 --> 01:57:32,820
own voice, according to his own
will, as unto as many as

2077
01:57:32,820 --> 01:57:36,860
believed on the same.
So this order of the Messiah is.

2078
01:57:36,860 --> 01:57:39,620
The supreme power over the
elements that you see in the

2079
01:57:39,620 --> 01:57:42,100
scriptures that many of the
prophets exercise.

2080
01:57:42,560 --> 01:57:46,480
And according to this Enoch held
this authority, Malkesic held

2081
01:57:46,480 --> 01:57:49,160
this authority.
We know we can understand that

2082
01:57:49,160 --> 01:57:52,600
Noah held this authority because
Noah is ordained to the Malkesic

2083
01:57:52,600 --> 01:57:57,400
priesthood in at a very young
age according to the DNC107.

2084
01:57:57,760 --> 01:58:01,240
But then if you read in the book
of Moses at a much older age,

2085
01:58:01,840 --> 01:58:05,400
Noah is ordained after God's
order and he's given this

2086
01:58:05,400 --> 01:58:07,760
authority.
We know that Moses had this

2087
01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:11,000
supreme power over the element.
So it's something that, it's

2088
01:58:11,040 --> 01:58:13,640
where it's what Joseph Smith was
talking about when Joseph Smith

2089
01:58:13,640 --> 01:58:16,440
said all the prophets held the
Milkhesic priesthood and were

2090
01:58:16,440 --> 01:58:22,720
ordained by God himself.
You know some different

2091
01:58:22,840 --> 01:58:26,440
foundational understandings of
priesthood that, you know,

2092
01:58:26,440 --> 01:58:29,760
Joseph Smith taught, but they
really didn't get passed down.

2093
01:58:19,400 --> 01:58:21,120
So, you know, this kind of
really.

2094
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:32,440
I think Brigham Young kind of
mentioned the order.

2095
01:58:32,680 --> 01:58:35,360
Brigham Young would reference
this highest priesthood that

2096
01:58:35,360 --> 01:58:39,400
they didn't have by calling it
the keys of creation, have power

2097
01:58:39,400 --> 01:58:42,840
over the elements to be able to
demand the elements at will.

2098
01:58:43,800 --> 01:58:48,520
And so you know I think Ross
really did restore a

2099
01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:52,400
foundational important knowledge
regarding the the different

2100
01:58:52,400 --> 01:58:55,840
orders of the priesthood.
So to get into some other

2101
01:58:55,920 --> 01:59:00,280
significant doctrinal ideas that
I think that Ross and and his

2102
01:59:00,280 --> 01:59:03,520
student Fred Collier received,
because I do think that that

2103
01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:06,600
they kind of Co restored a lot
of these principles and

2104
01:59:06,600 --> 01:59:10,220
doctrines.
So, Fred Collier, let me ask.

2105
01:59:10,220 --> 01:59:12,500
You a couple of questions here
real quick, Jacob.

2106
01:59:13,820 --> 01:59:18,540
On this order of of the Messiah,
we know that Joseph Smith

2107
01:59:18,540 --> 01:59:20,460
mentioned it, John Taylor makes
mention of it.

2108
01:59:20,460 --> 01:59:27,260
Do they dive into the kind of
detail that Ross and Fred

2109
01:59:27,500 --> 01:59:33,580
Collier ascribe to it, or are
they extrapolating things as

2110
01:59:33,580 --> 01:59:36,300
they see it?
So I I do.

2111
01:59:36,420 --> 01:59:41,410
There's some extrapolation, but
I do think Joseph Smith on March

2112
01:59:41,410 --> 01:59:44,290
10th, 1844 says that there is
this.

2113
01:59:44,890 --> 01:59:49,130
So he's talking about the spirit
and power of Elias, the spirit

2114
01:59:49,130 --> 01:59:52,450
and power of Elijah, spirit and
power of Messiah.

2115
01:59:52,730 --> 01:59:56,850
And he's very explicit that so
Elijah's going to be the one to

2116
01:59:56,850 --> 01:59:59,850
restore the endowments of the
full list of Mel Kazakh and

2117
02:00:00,330 --> 02:00:02,570
place all of the seals on the
House of Israel.

2118
02:00:02,770 --> 02:00:05,690
And then last of all, Messiah
comes to his temple.

2119
02:00:06,070 --> 02:00:09,350
And restores all power on
heaven, in heaven and earth.

2120
02:00:09,910 --> 02:00:13,030
So Joseph Smith makes comments
about it.

2121
02:00:13,270 --> 02:00:16,430
But I do think Ross is the one
who really puts it together that

2122
02:00:16,470 --> 02:00:21,030
this is distinct, you know,
order of the priesthood.

2123
02:00:21,310 --> 02:00:24,390
And when you go back to the book
of Moses, you can see it's

2124
02:00:24,390 --> 02:00:27,870
referenced as the highest order
of the Son of God which Enoch is

2125
02:00:27,870 --> 02:00:33,710
ordained to which Melchezik is
ordained to which Noah is

2126
02:00:33,710 --> 02:00:36,890
ordained to so.
And and they in the book of

2127
02:00:36,890 --> 02:00:43,450
Moses and especially the JST
Genesis 14, it talks about you

2128
02:00:43,450 --> 02:00:45,730
know having this power over the
elements.

2129
02:00:45,770 --> 02:00:49,450
And you know that's going off of
what Joseph Smith said about hot

2130
02:00:49,450 --> 02:00:53,130
about it in that revelation, you
know JST Genesis 14 if that

2131
02:00:53,130 --> 02:00:56,570
makes sense.
So.

2132
02:00:57,930 --> 02:00:59,410
Let's talk a little bit about.
Fred.

2133
02:00:59,410 --> 02:01:02,890
Colliers, because he's another,
I think, significant figure in

2134
02:01:02,890 --> 02:01:05,050
Lebaron history.
It's been especially in

2135
02:01:05,050 --> 02:01:08,970
connection with Ross Lebaron.
So Fred Collier was someone who

2136
02:01:08,970 --> 02:01:12,330
was born.
Raised at the LDS church and he

2137
02:01:13,050 --> 02:01:16,850
according to what his mother
said is that he was probably the

2138
02:01:16,850 --> 02:01:18,890
most promising Deacon as a young
man.

2139
02:01:18,890 --> 02:01:21,050
He was.
He was he was the the Bishop's

2140
02:01:21,050 --> 02:01:24,530
favorite Deacon and was very
into the following all of the

2141
02:01:24,570 --> 02:01:28,490
gospel and and trying to obey,
you know everything that is

2142
02:01:28,490 --> 02:01:32,890
being taught in the church.
And Fred was really big on

2143
02:01:33,170 --> 02:01:36,570
understanding doctrine and and
getting into talking about

2144
02:01:36,570 --> 02:01:40,130
Mormonism with other people.
He said that this gotten him

2145
02:01:40,130 --> 02:01:43,330
into kind of problems when he
was a young younger guy and he

2146
02:01:43,330 --> 02:01:45,970
was just got out of high school
and he was starting to have

2147
02:01:45,970 --> 02:01:48,570
jobs.
He wanted to talk about religion

2148
02:01:48,570 --> 02:01:52,090
and a lot of jobs aren't too
happy about you talking about

2149
02:01:52,090 --> 02:01:56,130
religion at work.
And so Fred actually decided to

2150
02:01:56,130 --> 02:01:58,600
go, that he would go work for
the church and he ended up

2151
02:01:58,600 --> 02:02:02,640
working at Deseret Book Bindery.
And there he met another

2152
02:02:02,640 --> 02:02:06,000
individual who comes up in
Lebaron Ross, Lebaron history

2153
02:02:06,000 --> 02:02:10,240
named Steve Yorkman.
And Steve Yorkman, his father

2154
02:02:10,240 --> 02:02:13,720
was a fundamentalist and you
know, but he was working at

2155
02:02:13,720 --> 02:02:18,880
Deseret Book Bindery and they
were going to throw as the

2156
02:02:18,880 --> 02:02:22,960
pictures of Brigham Young and
Fred was going to throw these

2157
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:24,720
away.
And Steve Yorkman tells him,

2158
02:02:25,500 --> 02:02:27,260
don't throw those away.
I know some people who would

2159
02:02:27,260 --> 02:02:29,260
want those.
And he's like, who'd want these

2160
02:02:29,340 --> 02:02:32,140
kind of slightly misprinted
pictures of Brigham Young?

2161
02:02:32,580 --> 02:02:34,420
And he goes, oh, some
polygamists.

2162
02:02:34,740 --> 02:02:38,540
And Fred's like what he's like,
oh, still exist.

2163
02:02:38,660 --> 02:02:41,900
He was, like, shocked that Steve
Workman told him that there were

2164
02:02:41,900 --> 02:02:44,340
still polygamists in today's day
and age.

2165
02:02:44,780 --> 02:02:49,380
And so Steve kind of started
introducing Fred to

2166
02:02:49,380 --> 02:02:51,540
fundamentalist doctrine.
And he's the one of the first

2167
02:02:51,540 --> 02:02:53,860
things he taught told him is,
you know, that Brigham Young

2168
02:02:53,860 --> 02:02:55,500
taught that Adam is God the
father.

2169
02:02:56,020 --> 02:02:59,580
And Fred said the first words
out of his mouth were bullshit.

2170
02:03:00,180 --> 02:03:03,700
You prove it.
And so Steve does and gets him

2171
02:03:03,700 --> 02:03:07,100
an Adam God pamphlet.
To you know, for Fred to read

2172
02:03:07,100 --> 02:03:09,740
and and to see all these
different Brigham Young quotes

2173
02:03:09,820 --> 02:03:12,900
about Adam, God.
And so Fred, you know, this

2174
02:03:12,900 --> 02:03:17,430
started Fred to get interested
in understanding Mormon history.

2175
02:03:17,430 --> 02:03:20,390
He he goes and he sees all these
quotes and he goes and he

2176
02:03:20,390 --> 02:03:23,430
actually wants to check out the
quotes and make sure the sources

2177
02:03:23,430 --> 02:03:25,230
are legit.
And so he goes to the Journal of

2178
02:03:25,230 --> 02:03:28,190
Discourses and he says, Yep,
Brigham Young said this on this

2179
02:03:28,270 --> 02:03:30,070
day.
He said this on this day, you

2180
02:03:30,070 --> 02:03:34,310
know, so all the citations were
accurate and he started telling

2181
02:03:34,310 --> 02:03:37,110
him kind of about.
You know, the 1886 revelation

2182
02:03:37,430 --> 02:03:39,670
and about, you know,
fundamentalist authority that

2183
02:03:39,670 --> 02:03:42,970
had come out of the church And
you know Fred started to get

2184
02:03:42,970 --> 02:03:45,650
interested in, in in researching
all this stuff and it kind of

2185
02:03:45,970 --> 02:03:50,530
jump started Fred as being a
fundamentalist historian and

2186
02:03:50,530 --> 02:03:54,850
Steve had met Ross and you know
had been ordained by Ross.

2187
02:03:55,330 --> 02:03:59,850
And Steve is the one who kind of
he first took Fred to go to the

2188
02:03:59,850 --> 02:04:03,890
Allred meeting to to to see the
Allreds pre, you know, their

2189
02:04:03,890 --> 02:04:06,330
church meeting.
But then he took Fred to meet

2190
02:04:06,330 --> 02:04:09,560
Ross, and Fred and Ross really
connected on doctrine.

2191
02:04:09,560 --> 02:04:13,080
He said that Ross was more into
deep doctrine than anyone else

2192
02:04:13,080 --> 02:04:15,600
he'd ever met and they were able
to really connect on it.

2193
02:04:15,600 --> 02:04:19,560
And they talked for probably 7
hours straight just talking

2194
02:04:19,560 --> 02:04:23,000
about the the deep doctrines of
the gospel.

2195
02:04:24,440 --> 02:04:30,240
So Fred gets ordained by Ross in
on August in August of 1970, and

2196
02:04:30,240 --> 02:04:34,200
he becomes kind of a big player
in the Lebaron history and he's

2197
02:04:34,570 --> 02:04:36,610
kind of someone who's probably
one of the most prolific

2198
02:04:36,610 --> 02:04:40,210
missionaries converting people
and teaching people about Ross's

2199
02:04:40,210 --> 02:04:43,730
teachings and teaching about
their authority beliefs and

2200
02:04:43,730 --> 02:04:45,690
about these fundamentalist
teachings.

2201
02:04:46,090 --> 02:04:49,410
And he immediately began
researching and writing to help

2202
02:04:49,570 --> 02:04:52,370
kind of establish this work of
the Church of the First Born

2203
02:04:52,370 --> 02:04:54,290
that Ross was trying to
establish.

2204
02:04:54,730 --> 02:04:58,330
So one of the first big
revelations that Ross and Fred

2205
02:04:58,330 --> 02:05:02,060
kind of both had together was a
revelation of on the importance

2206
02:05:02,060 --> 02:05:04,420
of the law of adoption being an
important practice.

2207
02:05:04,420 --> 02:05:06,940
And this was in November of
1970.

2208
02:05:07,340 --> 02:05:11,780
So he said that Ross kind of
knew about it as a concept, like

2209
02:05:11,780 --> 02:05:13,980
so many other fundamentalists
knew that they were doing this

2210
02:05:13,980 --> 02:05:18,180
in early Mormonism, but Ross
didn't really see its importance

2211
02:05:18,220 --> 02:05:22,340
as a social organization.
So Ross, Fred kind of said, I

2212
02:05:22,340 --> 02:05:24,820
discovered for myself the
Stanley Ivans Collection of the

2213
02:05:24,820 --> 02:05:27,860
Utah State Historical Society,
which contained A substantial

2214
02:05:27,860 --> 02:05:30,460
file and adoption.
When I got hold of the John D

2215
02:05:30,460 --> 02:05:35,340
Lee report of the February 16th
and 17th, 1847 family meetings

2216
02:05:35,340 --> 02:05:37,660
where Brigham Young gives his
most indepth speech on the law

2217
02:05:37,660 --> 02:05:39,740
of adoption.
It was like revelation from

2218
02:05:39,740 --> 02:05:41,620
heaven.
It was revelation from heaven.

2219
02:05:41,980 --> 02:05:45,300
The Spirit of God came upon me
and the horizons of my mind were

2220
02:05:45,300 --> 02:05:49,860
expanded.
He said, you know, he said the

2221
02:05:49,860 --> 02:05:52,380
spirit of God let him up my mind
up like a Christmas tree.

2222
02:05:52,380 --> 02:05:54,860
I brought it to Ross and I read
it to him and immediately

2223
02:05:54,860 --> 02:05:57,980
afterwards entered into a
covenant to be his adopted son.

2224
02:05:58,620 --> 02:06:01,620
And they said ultimately the
rule of thumb became all things

2225
02:06:01,940 --> 02:06:05,500
else being equal, convert would
be adopted to the man who

2226
02:06:05,500 --> 02:06:07,740
brought him into the work.
And after this, adoption

2227
02:06:07,740 --> 02:06:10,740
cabinets always preceded
ordination to the patriarchal

2228
02:06:10,740 --> 02:06:12,540
priesthood.
The policy being that the

2229
02:06:12,540 --> 02:06:15,100
individual to whom you were
adopted would be the mouth of

2230
02:06:15,100 --> 02:06:18,900
the ordination or patriarchal
Priesthood was a lineal order

2231
02:06:19,060 --> 02:06:22,100
and was supposed to pass down
from father to son.

2232
02:06:22,420 --> 02:06:26,140
And so this is when adoption
became like a big part of kind

2233
02:06:26,140 --> 02:06:28,830
of the Le Baron Ross Lebaron
social order.

2234
02:06:29,110 --> 02:06:32,870
And it is even as the IT was
interesting enough to Verland

2235
02:06:33,070 --> 02:06:36,270
that when Verland wrote the
Lebaron story, he wrote that

2236
02:06:36,270 --> 02:06:40,550
this was kind of part of what
his brother Ross taught about,

2237
02:06:41,030 --> 02:06:42,670
you know, his priesthood
teachings.

2238
02:06:43,070 --> 02:06:45,510
So Fred wrote quite a bit on
adoption.

2239
02:06:45,510 --> 02:06:47,590
I think Fred was very
significant to getting the law

2240
02:06:47,590 --> 02:06:52,030
of adoption to be understood by
many fundamentalists.

2241
02:06:52,510 --> 02:06:54,710
And he wrote, you know, papers
that kind of explained it.

2242
02:06:54,710 --> 02:06:57,470
And one of my favorite quotes
explaining the law of adoption

2243
02:06:57,470 --> 02:07:06,230
came from Fred in a paper he
gave in 198019198619861987.

2244
02:07:06,230 --> 02:07:09,070
He said in the first endowments
that were given at NABU, when

2245
02:07:09,070 --> 02:07:11,310
you received the fullness of the
gospel, you entered into the

2246
02:07:11,310 --> 02:07:14,470
divine family, and some man on
earth would become your father.

2247
02:07:14,710 --> 02:07:17,430
He'd be responsible to teach you
about the principles whereby you

2248
02:07:17,470 --> 02:07:19,870
could become like God, and he
would be a father to you,

2249
02:07:19,870 --> 02:07:23,090
whether or not he was by blood.
Children born under the covenant

2250
02:07:23,090 --> 02:07:26,010
to parents who were faithful to
all the laws of God were not

2251
02:07:26,010 --> 02:07:28,050
under necessity of seeking out
such a father.

2252
02:07:28,370 --> 02:07:30,890
But men who were born outside of
the covenant, who are, who were

2253
02:07:30,890 --> 02:07:33,330
born to unfaithful parents, they
had to find other parents who

2254
02:07:33,330 --> 02:07:35,650
were in the covenant.
This is because of the celestial

2255
02:07:35,650 --> 02:07:37,890
family.
There are no dead limbs, nor are

2256
02:07:37,890 --> 02:07:39,810
there any branches that have
been cut off the tree.

2257
02:07:40,050 --> 02:07:42,610
When the celestial family, you
are alive and vibrant in the

2258
02:07:42,610 --> 02:07:46,130
living of the gospel in every
way, you are eternally connected

2259
02:07:46,530 --> 02:07:49,090
to your in your, into your
genealogical tree, into the

2260
02:07:49,090 --> 02:07:51,570
divine family.
Either this or you have no place

2261
02:07:51,570 --> 02:07:54,290
in the social family at all.
Ultimately, those who are not

2262
02:07:54,290 --> 02:07:56,490
born to parents, who are vibrant
and the fullest of the gospel

2263
02:07:56,730 --> 02:08:00,130
must be sealed to parents.
Other parents who are in this

2264
02:08:00,130 --> 02:08:03,530
sense, children sometimes become
as talents, which are taken from

2265
02:08:03,530 --> 02:08:06,170
unfaithful parents and given to
other parents that are worthy.

2266
02:08:06,370 --> 02:08:09,530
This is the law of adoption or
the ceiling of men to men.

2267
02:08:10,090 --> 02:08:13,490
So this was, you know, a big
part of, in my opinion, when I

2268
02:08:13,490 --> 02:08:16,770
look back at Mormon history on
the Trek W they're trying to

2269
02:08:16,770 --> 02:08:18,690
organize the same sense of the
law of adoption.

2270
02:08:18,690 --> 02:08:21,470
This is kind of how they were
trying to get the Saints

2271
02:08:21,470 --> 02:08:23,670
established into this higher
family order.

2272
02:08:24,110 --> 02:08:26,910
But obviously when they came to
Utah, their statements where

2273
02:08:26,910 --> 02:08:29,630
they said that this, you know,
they felt that the majority of

2274
02:08:29,630 --> 02:08:33,150
the Saints weren't ready for the
higher organization of the

2275
02:08:33,150 --> 02:08:36,670
Kingdom of God.
So another significant

2276
02:08:36,670 --> 02:08:40,790
revelation came just a month
later, and it's a revelation on

2277
02:08:40,910 --> 02:08:43,390
understanding why there were two
distinct churches.

2278
02:08:43,390 --> 02:08:46,070
Why would we have both the
Church of Jesus Christ and the

2279
02:08:46,070 --> 02:08:48,310
Church of the First Born in the
gospel program?

2280
02:08:48,950 --> 02:08:51,550
Because Ross kind of would
explain it as they're two

2281
02:08:51,550 --> 02:08:54,550
distinct churches, but the
Church of the Church of Jesus

2282
02:08:54,550 --> 02:08:57,870
Christ is a Gentile order.
The Church of the First Born is

2283
02:08:57,910 --> 02:09:01,470
a patriarchal order.
But Fred and Fred's mind when

2284
02:09:01,470 --> 02:09:04,310
he's trying to teach people, he
says this doesn't really fully

2285
02:09:04,310 --> 02:09:06,710
explain it.
And so Fred says that one time

2286
02:09:06,710 --> 02:09:09,350
when he's teaching somebody he
actually got a revelation that

2287
02:09:09,350 --> 02:09:12,910
kind of outlined this greater
understanding of this two tiered

2288
02:09:12,910 --> 02:09:16,600
restoration of the gospel.
He wrote, I mean he said I

2289
02:09:16,600 --> 02:09:19,040
received a revelation of the
Church of Jesus Christ is for

2290
02:09:19,040 --> 02:09:22,120
the salvation of mankind while
the Church of the first born was

2291
02:09:22,120 --> 02:09:25,120
for the Exaltation of man.
And the family related temple

2292
02:09:25,120 --> 02:09:27,640
ordinances had to do with the
Church of the first born while

2293
02:09:27,640 --> 02:09:30,040
baptism, the sacrament and other
ordinances had to do with the

2294
02:09:30,040 --> 02:09:32,400
Church of Christ.
From that time on I began to

2295
02:09:32,400 --> 02:09:35,160
receive revelations about the
Church of the first born and the

2296
02:09:35,160 --> 02:09:38,080
priesthood.
So Fred said after he got this

2297
02:09:38,080 --> 02:09:41,640
revelation, he actually called
up Bobby B on the phone and told

2298
02:09:41,640 --> 02:09:44,520
him this new idea that he felt
he got from inspiration.

2299
02:09:44,990 --> 02:09:49,030
And Bob EB, who had been a
follower of Ross for 13 years,

2300
02:09:49,990 --> 02:09:54,550
he kind of said, I've, I've got
a lot of quotes collected on the

2301
02:09:54,550 --> 02:09:56,270
Church of the first one.
I'm pretty sure I have a quote

2302
02:09:56,270 --> 02:09:59,030
that contradicts you on this.
And so Fred's like, OK, go

2303
02:09:59,030 --> 02:10:01,630
ahead, show it.
And so EB goes and grabs his

2304
02:10:01,630 --> 02:10:05,030
binder, and they're on the phone
and EB finds the quote and it's

2305
02:10:05,030 --> 02:10:06,310
bring me UN quote and it bring
me.

2306
02:10:06,310 --> 02:10:10,710
Young says the ordinances of the
House of God are expressly for

2307
02:10:10,710 --> 02:10:14,420
the Church of the First Born.
And Fred goes that doesn't

2308
02:10:14,420 --> 02:10:17,780
contradict it.
That confirms that the OR you

2309
02:10:17,780 --> 02:10:20,380
know that the temple ordinances
are expressly for the Church of

2310
02:10:20,380 --> 02:10:23,860
the first born.
So Fred said that Ross was a

2311
02:10:23,860 --> 02:10:28,620
little bit slower to accepting
this this, this new idea, but

2312
02:10:28,620 --> 02:10:33,380
that on August 7th, 1974 that
Ross also accepted it and he was

2313
02:10:33,380 --> 02:10:38,540
able to write it down as a
revelation that Ross agreed with

2314
02:10:38,700 --> 02:10:40,820
and that Ross believed it was
true.

2315
02:10:41,100 --> 02:10:44,930
So if Fred wrote this as
research journal revelation

2316
02:10:44,930 --> 02:10:48,170
received through Patriarch Ross
Wesley Lebaron, August 7th,

2317
02:10:48,170 --> 02:10:51,930
1974, a man obtains the right to
salvation through demonstrating

2318
02:10:51,930 --> 02:10:54,130
that he's willing to live
harmoniously in a society which

2319
02:10:54,130 --> 02:10:55,730
is governed by the priests of
God.

2320
02:10:56,050 --> 02:10:59,690
A man obtains exaltation by
organizing a Society of his own

2321
02:10:59,690 --> 02:11:01,930
under the priesthood and
according to the laws and

2322
02:11:01,930 --> 02:11:03,570
ordinances of the Holy Order of
God.

2323
02:11:03,810 --> 02:11:06,770
The same as all the gods have
done before us is the primary

2324
02:11:06,770 --> 02:11:08,290
purpose of the Church of Jesus
Christ.

2325
02:11:08,290 --> 02:11:11,970
Offer salvation to all mankind
by teaching them the necessary

2326
02:11:11,970 --> 02:11:15,010
social laws of love and respect,
which, when incorporated into

2327
02:11:15,010 --> 02:11:18,090
our lives, enable us to live in
a state of harmony and the

2328
02:11:18,090 --> 02:11:20,490
Kingdom of God through the
Atonement of Christ.

2329
02:11:20,490 --> 02:11:24,250
Salvation is offered to as a
free gift to all those who

2330
02:11:24,250 --> 02:11:25,890
demonstrate they will live
accordingly.

2331
02:11:26,170 --> 02:11:28,850
Is the primary purpose of the
Church of the first born to

2332
02:11:28,850 --> 02:11:31,410
offer mankind exaltation by
opening their minds to a

2333
02:11:31,410 --> 02:11:34,050
knowledge of the laws and
ordinances of the Holy Order of

2334
02:11:34,050 --> 02:11:37,330
God, and by offering them an
opportunity to receive the same

2335
02:11:37,570 --> 02:11:40,210
through the ordinate authority
of the priesthood that they

2336
02:11:40,210 --> 02:11:43,650
might have the privilege of
entering into their exaltation?

2337
02:11:44,370 --> 02:11:49,130
So this is another key thing.
That I think really and so many

2338
02:11:49,130 --> 02:11:52,050
people in fundamentalism, just
that rings so true that so many

2339
02:11:52,050 --> 02:11:55,570
people accept that idea that you
have kind of A2 tiered

2340
02:11:56,020 --> 02:11:59,260
restoration of the gospel
salvation at the church level

2341
02:11:59,460 --> 02:12:02,420
than the gospel of exaltation,
which is the higher level

2342
02:12:02,420 --> 02:12:05,340
through the temple ordinances
and those higher priesthood

2343
02:12:05,460 --> 02:12:08,820
organizations.
So to talk a little bit about

2344
02:12:08,980 --> 02:12:11,740
Ross.
And hit some of his, you know,

2345
02:12:11,740 --> 02:12:14,500
other aspects of his ministry
and his teachings and his

2346
02:12:14,500 --> 02:12:18,140
eccentricities.
So Ross was really, really big

2347
02:12:18,140 --> 02:12:19,940
on free agency.
He called it, you know, the

2348
02:12:19,940 --> 02:12:22,820
foundational principle of the
universe.

2349
02:12:23,220 --> 02:12:27,220
And he said the the greatest
principle ever revealed was the

2350
02:12:27,220 --> 02:12:31,100
patriarchal family organization,
including polygamy at it at the

2351
02:12:31,100 --> 02:12:32,980
top.
Connected with that principle is

2352
02:12:32,980 --> 02:12:35,540
how a man should treat a woman
to keep her happy and exalt her

2353
02:12:35,540 --> 02:12:38,060
and her children.
And then he goes on, he says the

2354
02:12:38,220 --> 02:12:40,380
when you get into the family
organization, the first great

2355
02:12:40,380 --> 02:12:44,060
principle after you learn it is
the in is that the gods have to

2356
02:12:44,060 --> 02:12:46,780
allow the greatest free agency
possible.

2357
02:12:47,100 --> 02:12:49,020
If they didn't, people wouldn't
go with them at all.

2358
02:12:49,420 --> 02:12:51,260
People want all the free agency
they can.

2359
02:12:51,260 --> 02:12:54,120
So he says it's very important
to have free agency, but you

2360
02:12:54,120 --> 02:12:58,080
can't have complete.
He says but free agency doesn't

2361
02:12:58,080 --> 02:13:00,000
mean every what everyone thinks
it does.

2362
02:13:00,000 --> 02:13:02,560
Perfect free agency means
absolutely no ties, no

2363
02:13:02,560 --> 02:13:05,600
responsibility and nobody owes
you anything and you owe nobody

2364
02:13:05,600 --> 02:13:08,680
and nothing.
So free agency isn't what people

2365
02:13:08,680 --> 02:13:10,400
think it is.
The perfect free agency is to be

2366
02:13:10,400 --> 02:13:13,360
able to have your free agency
1st and then you make a trade

2367
02:13:13,520 --> 02:13:17,200
when you what you have to offer
for someone else is what and for

2368
02:13:17,200 --> 02:13:18,800
what someone else has to offer
to you.

2369
02:13:19,520 --> 02:13:23,400
So he goes on and.
You know, Ross was really big on

2370
02:13:23,480 --> 02:13:26,280
the Adam God doctrine.
He's really big on the belief

2371
02:13:26,280 --> 02:13:28,840
that Joseph Smith was the Holy
Ghost, which, you know, we've

2372
02:13:28,880 --> 02:13:30,920
we've talked about.
You know, you you on a previous

2373
02:13:30,920 --> 02:13:34,480
podcast talked about how Joseph
Muster really was the primary

2374
02:13:34,480 --> 02:13:37,760
guy who established those ideas
among fundamentalism.

2375
02:13:37,760 --> 02:13:41,760
And Ross was a really big
believer in both of those ideas.

2376
02:13:42,000 --> 02:13:47,760
So Ross, after kind of.
Being kind of, you know, not

2377
02:13:47,760 --> 02:13:50,200
being on the best terms of the
different fundamentalists.

2378
02:13:50,320 --> 02:13:53,000
You know, they grew tired of
him, you know, kind of teaching

2379
02:13:53,000 --> 02:13:56,440
his claims in their groups.
One thing that Ross would do and

2380
02:13:56,440 --> 02:13:59,480
was a big part of his ministry
was that he would actually go on

2381
02:13:59,480 --> 02:14:03,840
KSXX radio and do a radio show
to kind of.

2382
02:14:04,240 --> 02:14:07,600
And what he tried to do was he
tried to talk about the Gospel.

2383
02:14:07,600 --> 02:14:10,760
But he also tried to be a bit
eccentric, where he wanted to

2384
02:14:11,160 --> 02:14:14,560
talk about things in a kind of
controversial way to get to keep

2385
02:14:14,560 --> 02:14:18,840
people entertained and to, you
know, he'll he'll get them kind

2386
02:14:18,840 --> 02:14:21,440
of entertained or riled up on
whatever controversial thing he

2387
02:14:21,440 --> 02:14:23,520
would say.
And then he would also kind of

2388
02:14:23,520 --> 02:14:27,200
mix in, you know, different
aspects of the fullness of the

2389
02:14:27,200 --> 02:14:31,520
gospel with it.
And, for example, Tom Green told

2390
02:14:31,520 --> 02:14:36,240
me that he knew about Ross's
radio show long before he kind

2391
02:14:36,240 --> 02:14:39,120
of became converted to Ross's
teachings.

2392
02:14:39,480 --> 02:14:41,320
He said that he heard Ross on
the radio.

2393
02:14:41,320 --> 02:14:44,240
He taught that.
He said that you know the Adam

2394
02:14:44,770 --> 02:14:47,810
had a flying saucer and flew
around and that he, you know was

2395
02:14:47,810 --> 02:14:50,490
kind of the God of this world.
And he Tom kind of thought the

2396
02:14:50,490 --> 02:14:52,530
flying saucer part was a bit
weird.

2397
02:14:52,850 --> 02:14:55,330
But you know this the Adam God
part.

2398
02:14:55,330 --> 02:14:57,570
When when Tom became a
fundamentalist, he realized oh

2399
02:14:57,570 --> 02:15:01,530
he was including kind of this
Adam God aspects to this idea.

2400
02:15:01,530 --> 02:15:05,450
So Ross was a bit eccentric.
He he was big into belief in

2401
02:15:05,450 --> 02:15:07,490
UFOs.
He actually believed that he had

2402
02:15:07,490 --> 02:15:11,250
the perfect design for UFO.
He he actually made-up the

2403
02:15:11,250 --> 02:15:18,330
little he had a patent for a UFO
toy that actually I think got

2404
02:15:18,410 --> 02:15:21,050
made by many by a company called
Lamo.

2405
02:15:21,050 --> 02:15:24,770
I'm not sure if that boy
actually is still around or not,

2406
02:15:24,770 --> 02:15:31,410
but that's actually how Ross how
Fred first met Ross was he

2407
02:15:31,450 --> 02:15:32,930
Steve?
Kai told him he's going to be at

2408
02:15:32,930 --> 02:15:36,490
this park launching his UFO's at
the park.

2409
02:15:36,490 --> 02:15:39,730
And so look at the, you know,
it's a big park in Salt Lake and

2410
02:15:39,730 --> 02:15:42,010
look for where the UFO's are
coming from.

2411
02:15:42,090 --> 02:15:44,930
You know, these big things flank
saucers flying through the air.

2412
02:15:45,090 --> 02:15:48,090
And he said that's how he was
able to to to find Ross.

2413
02:15:48,490 --> 02:15:51,530
And so Ross is a bit eccentric.
You know, he he liked UFO's.

2414
02:15:51,530 --> 02:15:55,370
He believed that, you know, that
God used, you know, technology

2415
02:15:55,370 --> 02:15:57,730
as part of, you know, God's
work.

2416
02:15:58,010 --> 02:16:02,300
And he believed that Ezekiel,
when he talks about the spinning

2417
02:16:02,300 --> 02:16:06,900
wheels and on fire in the sky,
that he, he thought that Ezekiel

2418
02:16:06,900 --> 02:16:10,580
was kind of referencing that,
you know, that describing a UFO

2419
02:16:10,580 --> 02:16:13,620
was kind of what Ross's belief
was on that.

2420
02:16:14,980 --> 02:16:16,820
And and you know, Ross kind of
mixed.

2421
02:16:16,820 --> 02:16:20,180
In these eccentric things with
his radio ministry to kind of

2422
02:16:20,180 --> 02:16:24,100
keep it interesting.
Another thing that Ross was big.

2423
02:16:24,100 --> 02:16:27,400
On was he was also big on
prophetic dressing where you

2424
02:16:27,400 --> 02:16:30,760
know trying to guess the
prophetic dates when XYZ thing

2425
02:16:30,760 --> 02:16:33,360
would would happen important
events would happen.

2426
02:16:34,120 --> 02:16:36,440
I think it was kind of
influenced by another

2427
02:16:36,440 --> 02:16:39,360
fundamentalist called Francis
Darter who was also very big in

2428
02:16:39,360 --> 02:16:43,200
those kinds of ideas.
And they Ross actually said he

2429
02:16:43,200 --> 02:16:45,719
and Francis Starker actually
wrote several pamphlets

2430
02:16:45,719 --> 02:16:48,920
together.
And Darter I think also

2431
02:16:48,920 --> 02:16:52,040
influenced Ross to be believing
in the Slaymanite prophet idea,

2432
02:16:52,040 --> 02:16:54,760
which is kind of big in the
early part of fundamentalism.

2433
02:16:54,760 --> 02:16:58,360
Was that the this idea that
there was a secret lay night

2434
02:16:58,360 --> 02:17:04,360
profit that was that had the
keys SO11 kind of funny story

2435
02:17:04,360 --> 02:17:07,520
that that Fred Collier told
about Ross is on the radio show

2436
02:17:07,879 --> 02:17:13,440
was one time that Ross called on
the Joan Thomas radio show and

2437
02:17:13,440 --> 02:17:17,150
it was the topic was the IT was
about the time of the execution

2438
02:17:17,150 --> 02:17:19,590
of Gary Gilmore.
This woman was always speaking

2439
02:17:19,590 --> 02:17:22,510
out for women's rights to
abortion birth control and she

2440
02:17:22,510 --> 02:17:25,830
was very but she was very much
against the renewal of capital

2441
02:17:25,830 --> 02:17:29,430
punishment in Utah.
And the execution of this man

2442
02:17:29,750 --> 02:17:32,230
and this too inspired the fact
that this man had literally

2443
02:17:32,230 --> 02:17:35,469
requested execution.
As she said before the execution

2444
02:17:35,469 --> 02:17:37,510
she was going to go home and
pull her blinds and sit in the

2445
02:17:37,510 --> 02:17:41,070
dark the day of his execution.
Gilmore was a convicted killer

2446
02:17:41,070 --> 02:17:43,350
with several times over and he
wanted to die.

2447
02:17:43,709 --> 02:17:45,670
Nevertheless, this lady was
against reinstating the death

2448
02:17:45,670 --> 02:17:49,549
penalty, yet she was all for
killing the unborn anyway.

2449
02:17:49,549 --> 02:17:53,469
Ross called up on her on her
show one day and stated abortion

2450
02:17:53,469 --> 02:17:57,230
for the godless, birth control
for the apathetic, and polygamy

2451
02:17:57,230 --> 02:18:01,990
for all of my friends.
Needless to say this comment and

2452
02:18:01,990 --> 02:18:06,230
sense Thomas and drew out all
kinds of calls from her

2453
02:18:06,230 --> 02:18:12,010
sympathetic listeners and so you
know Ross really had fun going

2454
02:18:12,010 --> 02:18:15,490
on the radio and and Fred felt
that that was you know that you

2455
02:18:15,490 --> 02:18:17,889
know that's how Ross felt was
the best way to kind of spread

2456
02:18:17,889 --> 02:18:22,650
his ideas to others was through
the medium of of radio at that

2457
02:18:22,650 --> 02:18:25,969
time.
I I remember one radio

2458
02:18:25,969 --> 02:18:26,809
recording.
Of Ross.

2459
02:18:26,809 --> 02:18:28,889
That was kind of interesting
where a person called on and

2460
02:18:28,889 --> 02:18:32,209
wanted to kind of bash the LDS
church leaders over not being

2461
02:18:32,209 --> 02:18:34,850
able to detect the Hoffman
forgeries.

2462
02:18:35,209 --> 02:18:38,530
And and Ross kind of actually
kind of got after them for that.

2463
02:18:38,530 --> 02:18:42,049
He he said are you, you're
trying to make fun of the LDS

2464
02:18:42,049 --> 02:18:45,730
church leaders and rude.
Ross actually said it was kind

2465
02:18:45,730 --> 02:18:48,090
of rude to try to be doing that.
He says you only get revelations

2466
02:18:48,090 --> 02:18:51,170
from God that God gives you and
you can't expect someone to know

2467
02:18:51,170 --> 02:18:52,889
something unless God gives it to
them.

2468
02:18:52,889 --> 02:18:55,290
So he says, you know you
shouldn't expect somebody to be

2469
02:18:55,290 --> 02:18:59,930
able to detect every single
fraud or every single, you know,

2470
02:19:00,490 --> 02:19:02,930
you know, thing like that.
You know you go back to Joseph

2471
02:19:02,930 --> 02:19:05,490
Smith and the Kinderhook plates.
You know, that same principle

2472
02:19:05,490 --> 02:19:08,709
applies.
You know, God didn't give it to

2473
02:19:08,709 --> 02:19:11,670
Joseph to understand it.
And Joseph, you know, when he

2474
02:19:11,670 --> 02:19:14,190
looked at it and he went and he
pulled out the Egyptian alphabet

2475
02:19:14,190 --> 02:19:18,270
and grammar and was like trying
to match the characters on these

2476
02:19:18,629 --> 02:19:23,150
fake plates with the characters
that he got from the Egyptian

2477
02:19:23,150 --> 02:19:27,030
papyri and the the translation
of those characters that you had

2478
02:19:27,350 --> 02:19:31,629
at that time.
So Fred got another big

2479
02:19:31,629 --> 02:19:33,350
revelation.
I think it's very important to

2480
02:19:33,350 --> 02:19:36,070
the concept of the Church of the
First born, actually.

2481
02:19:36,070 --> 02:19:41,629
It was a series of revelations
in 1983 on the principle that

2482
02:19:41,750 --> 02:19:44,430
that Frederick called the
principle of total commitment.

2483
02:19:44,430 --> 02:19:47,590
And he says that it's really
something you can't understand

2484
02:19:47,590 --> 02:19:51,830
outside of the context of the
concept of celestial love, that

2485
02:19:52,150 --> 02:19:55,990
absolute selfless, not looking
for your own benefit, but

2486
02:19:55,990 --> 02:19:59,470
looking to uplift others.
And the key?

2487
02:19:59,790 --> 02:20:01,350
You know, it's a series of
revelations.

2488
02:20:01,730 --> 02:20:05,370
But the most important one to
Fred was a vision that he was

2489
02:20:05,370 --> 02:20:07,650
given during this time period,
he said.

2490
02:20:07,810 --> 02:20:10,850
I saw people dressed in white
robes standing on long tears.

2491
02:20:10,850 --> 02:20:12,010
There are people standing on
tears.

2492
02:20:12,010 --> 02:20:14,450
They're standing side by side,
about arm's length, probably a

2493
02:20:14,450 --> 02:20:17,770
little bit more apart, their
fathers and mothers and children

2494
02:20:17,770 --> 02:20:20,250
and grandchildren going down.
Parents were one tier above

2495
02:20:20,250 --> 02:20:23,010
their children and immediately
behind them.

2496
02:20:23,050 --> 02:20:25,290
Grandparents were two tiers
above their grandchildren, 1

2497
02:20:25,290 --> 02:20:28,050
tier above their children.
The the tears were all kind of

2498
02:20:28,050 --> 02:20:32,440
circular and the only words
associated with this dream was

2499
02:20:32,440 --> 02:20:34,560
they were all one, like the
weave of the cloth.

2500
02:20:34,840 --> 02:20:38,040
But a concept was put into my
mind, the most literally this

2501
02:20:38,040 --> 02:20:41,760
concept was beyond this world.
It was utterly beautiful without

2502
02:20:41,760 --> 02:20:43,720
words.
God put into my mind a concept

2503
02:20:43,720 --> 02:20:45,320
of union.
That's the most beautiful thing

2504
02:20:45,320 --> 02:20:48,160
that I'd ever thought of.
Why experience is most literally

2505
02:20:48,160 --> 02:20:50,560
God wrote the celestial law into
my heart and mind.

2506
02:20:50,800 --> 02:20:53,560
It's changed my whole life and
focus, the way I think and

2507
02:20:53,560 --> 02:20:57,660
perceive things.
And so he he kind of explained

2508
02:20:57,660 --> 02:21:01,900
it on another occasion that it
was revealed that the core thing

2509
02:21:01,900 --> 02:21:05,620
that makes heaven heaven is the
perfect heavenly union that

2510
02:21:05,620 --> 02:21:09,940
exists between those who are
exalted as gods in the celestial

2511
02:21:09,940 --> 02:21:12,140
Kingdom.
That if they weren't, they

2512
02:21:12,140 --> 02:21:15,340
didn't have this perfect union,
then it wouldn't be all that

2513
02:21:15,340 --> 02:21:18,500
great, it wouldn't be heaven.
And so it was this core idea

2514
02:21:18,500 --> 02:21:23,180
that we need to in our celestial
family relationships need to be

2515
02:21:23,180 --> 02:21:27,010
striving to have this perfect
union and and really this

2516
02:21:27,010 --> 02:21:30,810
complete commitment to our
eternal family relationships.

2517
02:21:30,810 --> 02:21:34,250
And that is what makes an
eternal marriage an eternal

2518
02:21:34,250 --> 02:21:38,010
marriage and makes a eternal
father son relationship and

2519
02:21:38,010 --> 02:21:42,490
eternal father son relationship.
And so this is really kind of in

2520
02:21:42,490 --> 02:21:44,850
his in what what the way Fred
said it.

2521
02:21:44,850 --> 02:21:47,930
He said they were all one like a
weave of the cloth and not was

2522
02:21:47,930 --> 02:21:49,490
saying this accordance with what
I saw.

2523
02:21:49,490 --> 02:21:52,310
The concept that was
communicated to my mind in my

2524
02:21:52,310 --> 02:21:54,630
heart, all the members of the
family had perfect freedom and

2525
02:21:54,630 --> 02:21:57,670
individuality and all the union
was by love and respect and

2526
02:21:57,670 --> 02:22:00,830
desire from heart and mind.
There was no coercion to this.

2527
02:22:01,350 --> 02:22:04,310
And he said that it was, you
know, all these everyone

2528
02:22:04,310 --> 02:22:07,830
perfectly lives.
He says the the law of

2529
02:22:07,830 --> 02:22:11,550
consecration together in the
celestial Kingdom that you you

2530
02:22:11,550 --> 02:22:14,150
live it with your family and
that you need to be developing

2531
02:22:14,150 --> 02:22:17,190
those perfectly committed family
relationships.

2532
02:22:17,470 --> 02:22:20,110
And that while authority, you
know, just like authority for a

2533
02:22:20,110 --> 02:22:24,340
baptism is important, a baptism
just getting baptized without

2534
02:22:24,340 --> 02:22:27,820
any spiritual aspect to it, you
know, repentance and accepting

2535
02:22:27,820 --> 02:22:30,980
Christ and trying to, you know,
live according to the teachings,

2536
02:22:31,500 --> 02:22:35,340
A baptism without what's in your
heart and mind isn't going to

2537
02:22:35,620 --> 02:22:38,900
affect it anything, you know,
it's really what's what's at the

2538
02:22:38,900 --> 02:22:42,700
core of, you know, why you're
doing the ordinance that makes

2539
02:22:42,700 --> 02:22:45,580
the ordinance valid.
And so similarly, Fred would say

2540
02:22:45,780 --> 02:22:49,620
this was the core of an eternal
marriage cabinet.

2541
02:22:49,620 --> 02:22:52,730
The authority is important.
The ordinance to get be

2542
02:22:52,730 --> 02:22:56,930
eternally sealed is important.
But the core of it needs to be

2543
02:22:56,930 --> 02:23:01,450
that perfect union and that
absolute striving to have an

2544
02:23:01,490 --> 02:23:05,050
eternal relationship and to make
that be an eternal family

2545
02:23:05,050 --> 02:23:08,690
relationship.
And so that he said this vision

2546
02:23:08,690 --> 02:23:12,890
experience really kind of
changed his outlook on the

2547
02:23:12,890 --> 02:23:15,210
Church of the first born and and
what had been taught up to that

2548
02:23:15,210 --> 02:23:19,620
time because kind of there was
kind of this attitude among, you

2549
02:23:19,620 --> 02:23:21,820
know, some of the people who are
ordained by Ross that they get

2550
02:23:21,820 --> 02:23:25,340
ordained and they go off and
kind of do their own little

2551
02:23:25,340 --> 02:23:26,380
thing.
And there wasn't really a.

2552
02:23:26,380 --> 02:23:29,700
Strong concept of union.
And even among parents and

2553
02:23:29,700 --> 02:23:31,940
children, you know, fathers and
sons, there wasn't really the

2554
02:23:31,940 --> 02:23:35,140
strong concept of union.
And this experience really put

2555
02:23:35,140 --> 02:23:38,900
it into Fred's heart and mind
that this union is absolutely

2556
02:23:39,060 --> 02:23:44,460
vital and important to establish
those kinds of, you know,

2557
02:23:44,820 --> 02:23:48,040
celestial relationships.
And that's what we really need

2558
02:23:48,040 --> 02:23:51,120
to strive for in order to, you
know, be worthy of the Celestial

2559
02:23:51,120 --> 02:23:54,080
Kingdom.
So after having this experience,

2560
02:23:54,080 --> 02:23:58,840
Fred Kya said that he was kind
of shocked that Ross very

2561
02:23:58,840 --> 02:24:03,530
shortly after Fred had these
experiences that Ross kind of

2562
02:24:03,770 --> 02:24:06,170
went backwards and some of his
doctoral teachings.

2563
02:24:06,170 --> 02:24:08,450
There are there are Ross
Lebaronites who accept these

2564
02:24:08,450 --> 02:24:12,290
other teachings and I I want to
talk about them in as respectful

2565
02:24:12,290 --> 02:24:16,250
as a way as I can, but I want to
be accurate in in describing

2566
02:24:16,250 --> 02:24:19,570
them and saying why I disagree
with these new teachings.

2567
02:24:19,570 --> 02:24:26,050
So about 1980 three 1984 Ross
began to change his foundational

2568
02:24:26,050 --> 02:24:30,250
priests of teachings in some
major ways instead of his family

2569
02:24:30,330 --> 02:24:33,870
receiving the keys down from
Joseph Smith to Bendra F Johnson

2570
02:24:33,870 --> 02:24:38,630
just kind of preserving you know
this this line coming down the

2571
02:24:38,630 --> 02:24:41,230
priesthood line ideas and Ross
is my change that actually

2572
02:24:41,230 --> 02:24:45,270
Bendra F Johnson had a new
dispensation of priesthood given

2573
02:24:45,670 --> 02:24:49,590
in the Navu temple which is he
said that the fullness of the

2574
02:24:49,590 --> 02:24:53,310
priesthood was restored by
Elijah and God the Father to

2575
02:24:53,310 --> 02:24:55,430
Bendra F Johnson in the Navu
temple.

2576
02:24:56,030 --> 02:24:59,670
And Ross would, this would be
called the Navu restoration in

2577
02:24:59,670 --> 02:25:02,850
Ross's theology.
And he basically was saying we

2578
02:25:02,850 --> 02:25:06,490
are a completely different 8th
dispensation.

2579
02:25:06,490 --> 02:25:09,570
We are not really connected to
Joseph Smith's authority.

2580
02:25:10,090 --> 02:25:14,170
And this is obviously very
controversial thing to claim you

2581
02:25:14,170 --> 02:25:17,570
know, to complete, you know be
saying that your priest

2582
02:25:17,570 --> 02:25:22,850
authority is completely separate
dispensation from Joseph Smith's

2583
02:25:23,090 --> 02:25:24,890
priest authority, if that makes
sense.

2584
02:25:24,890 --> 02:25:26,530
Where did?
Where is he getting this?

2585
02:25:26,530 --> 02:25:28,810
Where what?
What is this?

2586
02:25:29,130 --> 02:25:31,490
Because this is distinct, I
think in.

2587
02:25:32,040 --> 02:25:33,840
In Mormon fundamentalism, for
sure.

2588
02:25:33,840 --> 02:25:40,720
This idea that that Joseph kind
of completed his dispensation,

2589
02:25:40,720 --> 02:25:46,880
now there's a new dispensation.
Where, where is he getting this?

2590
02:25:46,880 --> 02:25:50,320
What?
What is it that that is behind

2591
02:25:50,320 --> 02:25:53,400
that?
Did he find something?

2592
02:25:53,400 --> 02:25:56,640
Did he did, did he receive some
sort of revelation?

2593
02:25:56,640 --> 02:26:00,520
What was it?
You know Fred.

2594
02:26:00,520 --> 02:26:04,040
Says it was actually reading in
Andy E Hat's thesis.

2595
02:26:04,040 --> 02:26:07,280
Unfortunately, because Fred
would say Andy, he hat's thesis

2596
02:26:07,280 --> 02:26:10,360
on the institution of temple or
this is actually very great

2597
02:26:10,360 --> 02:26:12,520
thesis.
But there's a statement in there

2598
02:26:12,800 --> 02:26:16,360
about Joe where Joseph Smith
spoke of Elijah's return

2599
02:26:16,360 --> 02:26:20,160
futuristically in the Navu
period, where he says, you know,

2600
02:26:20,160 --> 02:26:23,960
we are waiting for Elijah to
come and restore the the, the

2601
02:26:24,200 --> 02:26:25,640
authority.
There's several.

2602
02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:29,480
Joseph Smith throughout the Navu
period spoke futuristically

2603
02:26:29,850 --> 02:26:33,490
about Elijah coming and
restoring the covenants to seal

2604
02:26:33,490 --> 02:26:35,690
the hearts of the fathers, the
children, etcetera.

2605
02:26:36,210 --> 02:26:39,570
And so Ross looked at those
statements and he also connected

2606
02:26:39,570 --> 02:26:44,250
it with DNC124 saying that there
is a house on the earth for the

2607
02:26:44,250 --> 02:26:46,330
fullness of the priests to be
restored to you.

2608
02:26:47,250 --> 02:26:50,250
And so Ross kind of, in his
mind, connected these ideas that

2609
02:26:50,250 --> 02:26:54,610
there needed to be a second
restoration of the priest of

2610
02:26:54,650 --> 02:26:59,510
Elijah's authority to for a
patriarchal dispensation.

2611
02:26:59,510 --> 02:27:03,070
It's kind of that's how Ross
interpreted my personal you

2612
02:27:03,070 --> 02:27:05,270
know, I disagree with those
interpretations of Joseph

2613
02:27:05,270 --> 02:27:07,510
Smith's statements.
I believe Joseph Smith always

2614
02:27:07,510 --> 02:27:11,590
spoke futuristically about
Elijah's return because the Nava

2615
02:27:11,910 --> 02:27:16,670
temp that the the Kirtland
Restoration DNC110 was a secret

2616
02:27:17,070 --> 02:27:19,830
through Joseph Smith's lifetime.
And so we always spoke kind of

2617
02:27:19,830 --> 02:27:24,380
futuristically quoting Malachi's
prophecy just because it was,

2618
02:27:24,580 --> 02:27:26,900
you know, not yet known to the
Saints that.

2619
02:27:27,020 --> 02:27:30,020
And he basically, I think Joseph
was initially waiting for the

2620
02:27:30,020 --> 02:27:34,220
Navu temple to be completed to
reveal to them that this higher,

2621
02:27:34,460 --> 02:27:36,980
that these higher priesthood
keys were committed in the

2622
02:27:36,980 --> 02:27:39,860
Kirtland Temple.
And it was supposed to be in the

2623
02:27:39,860 --> 02:27:42,540
temple where the Saints were
supposed to get the fullness of

2624
02:27:42,540 --> 02:27:44,700
the priest and, you know,
through the endowment

2625
02:27:44,700 --> 02:27:48,410
ordinances, the 2nd anointing.
But, you know, Joseph had a

2626
02:27:48,410 --> 02:27:51,610
revelation that he might, he
had, he had promptings that he

2627
02:27:51,610 --> 02:27:53,890
might not live to see the temple
completed.

2628
02:27:54,210 --> 02:27:57,650
And so we had revelation
directing him to give, you know,

2629
02:27:57,650 --> 02:28:00,250
the the endowments and the
fullness of the priest said to

2630
02:28:00,250 --> 02:28:02,930
others before the temple was
completed.

2631
02:28:03,170 --> 02:28:07,290
And so I think Ross took those
statements, you know, the out of

2632
02:28:07,290 --> 02:28:10,690
context to come up with this new
theology.

2633
02:28:11,370 --> 02:28:14,930
And there's different
perspectives on looking at, you

2634
02:28:14,930 --> 02:28:20,060
know, at Ross's doing this.
Like I think the nicest way, I

2635
02:28:20,060 --> 02:28:22,540
think you can look at it as Ross
was getting old in his mind and

2636
02:28:22,540 --> 02:28:26,300
he might have, you know, might
have been having age to affect

2637
02:28:26,300 --> 02:28:28,700
his mind.
There's, you know, as one of

2638
02:28:28,700 --> 02:28:31,180
your previous interview said,
you know, men in their old age

2639
02:28:31,180 --> 02:28:33,700
can sometimes do the darndest
thing.

2640
02:28:34,060 --> 02:28:39,140
And I do think that this was a
big factor for why the church

2641
02:28:39,140 --> 02:28:42,980
leaders dropped so many things
after the manifesto was after

2642
02:28:42,980 --> 02:28:45,020
1890.
These guys were a bunch of very

2643
02:28:45,020 --> 02:28:48,590
old guys and maybe their minds
weren't all entirely there.

2644
02:28:48,590 --> 02:28:51,990
And they, you know, droppery,
baptism, they drop, adoption,

2645
02:28:52,270 --> 02:28:56,110
they, they, they, they defended
out and got initially after the

2646
02:28:56,110 --> 02:29:00,550
Manifesto in 1891, but then, you
know, only four years later

2647
02:29:00,550 --> 02:29:03,430
they're at general conference.
Like don't worry about who Adam

2648
02:29:03,430 --> 02:29:07,990
is, who Jehovah is, who Eloim
is, just, you know, it.

2649
02:29:08,150 --> 02:29:10,070
It was exact opposite attitude,
you know.

2650
02:29:10,480 --> 02:29:14,280
And so I do wonder if senility
might have affected the leaders

2651
02:29:14,280 --> 02:29:16,720
in causing, you know or, you
know, something to do with their

2652
02:29:16,720 --> 02:29:18,720
minds not being as sharp in
their old age might have

2653
02:29:18,720 --> 02:29:22,360
affected the LDS church leaders
in the 1890s.

2654
02:29:22,360 --> 02:29:25,960
That might have contributed to
some of the doctrinal decline.

2655
02:29:26,600 --> 02:29:29,320
And one thing that I would point
to that I think is evidence of

2656
02:29:29,320 --> 02:29:34,360
this is a friend of a friend of
mine told me that you heard

2657
02:29:34,360 --> 02:29:36,680
about.
The that the Mathias Cali

2658
02:29:36,680 --> 02:29:39,120
Diaries in the Church History
Library I understand are

2659
02:29:39,120 --> 02:29:41,490
restricted.
You can actually see what's in

2660
02:29:41,490 --> 02:29:46,130
Mathias Kelly's Diaries.
But somebody who who got to see

2661
02:29:46,330 --> 02:29:49,410
through the Matthias Kelly
Diaries said that there was

2662
02:29:49,410 --> 02:29:52,770
something there in the early
1910s where Matthias Kelly is

2663
02:29:52,770 --> 02:29:55,570
kind of complaining that he's
having a.

2664
02:29:55,730 --> 02:29:59,330
He's trying to talk about to
talk to Joseph F Smith about

2665
02:29:59,330 --> 02:30:01,610
some of the appointments about
some of the things he said.

2666
02:30:01,890 --> 02:30:05,010
He says Joseph F Smith isn't
remembering the conversations

2667
02:30:05,010 --> 02:30:08,770
that we've had.
And so maybe Joseph F Smith kind

2668
02:30:08,770 --> 02:30:12,500
of halfway thing on on plural
marriage near the end where he

2669
02:30:12,500 --> 02:30:14,780
was saying, you know, he could
have been having some issues

2670
02:30:14,780 --> 02:30:17,460
with his own memory, if that
makes sense.

2671
02:30:20,140 --> 02:30:24,340
Does so does Fred try to push
against this at all?

2672
02:30:24,500 --> 02:30:29,820
Coming from Ross, so, yeah, so.
Yes, there are three followers

2673
02:30:29,820 --> 02:30:34,500
of Ross who weren't who couldn't
accept these newer ideas on

2674
02:30:34,500 --> 02:30:36,260
Priested.
And I would say the three

2675
02:30:36,260 --> 02:30:40,720
followers were Bob EB, Robert
Black and Fred Collier.

2676
02:30:40,720 --> 02:30:43,880
And they each kind of had their
own different take on things.

2677
02:30:45,200 --> 02:30:50,520
You know, EB kind of felt that
Ross had fallen into pride a few

2678
02:30:50,520 --> 02:30:54,440
years earlier and that you know,
Ross initially wasn't so big on

2679
02:30:54,440 --> 02:30:56,000
the titles.
You know, he said the honors in

2680
02:30:56,000 --> 02:31:01,360
the work, not the titles.
But by 1978, Ross is has

2681
02:31:01,600 --> 02:31:05,080
basically claiming to be the
One, Mighty and strong and he is

2682
02:31:05,080 --> 02:31:07,280
wanting them to all to sustain
him as the one mighty and

2683
02:31:07,280 --> 02:31:10,230
strong.
And Robert Black told me So I've

2684
02:31:10,230 --> 02:31:14,430
done, I've done extensive
interviews with Robert Black.

2685
02:31:14,470 --> 02:31:17,430
I've had lots of long
conversations with Fred Collier.

2686
02:31:17,790 --> 02:31:19,870
I've had several long
conversations with Tom Green

2687
02:31:19,870 --> 02:31:22,910
kind of getting their different
perspectives on the history of

2688
02:31:22,910 --> 02:31:26,390
Ross Lebaron.
And Robert kind of told me that

2689
02:31:26,390 --> 02:31:31,390
he felt that it was this 1978 is
when Ross wanted them to to

2690
02:31:31,670 --> 02:31:33,710
sustain him as the one mighty
and strong.

2691
02:31:34,240 --> 02:31:39,400
And Ed Alder kind of raised his
arm to the square and said Ross

2692
02:31:39,400 --> 02:31:42,880
you are going to destroy this
work if you go down this path,

2693
02:31:43,600 --> 02:31:47,040
you know.
And and Roberts and Robert

2694
02:31:47,040 --> 02:31:51,640
recalled that Ross said is that
a prophecy And and and Ed Alder

2695
02:31:51,640 --> 02:31:54,040
raised his arm to the square and
said I say that in the name of

2696
02:31:54,040 --> 02:31:55,200
Jesus Christ.
You know it.

2697
02:31:55,200 --> 02:31:59,760
So there there was this and
Robert said that, you know the

2698
02:32:00,160 --> 02:32:04,070
and the only person there that
really, really wanted to sustain

2699
02:32:04,070 --> 02:32:09,310
Ross as that was Steve Yorkman,
that Fred kind of Fred's

2700
02:32:09,310 --> 02:32:11,390
attitude.
He said Fred stuck around and

2701
02:32:11,390 --> 02:32:15,630
tried to turn Ross around.
After that, he said that Fred's

2702
02:32:15,750 --> 02:32:18,750
response was, and Fred also told
me this was his response.

2703
02:32:18,750 --> 02:32:20,510
He said, Ross, you have the
keys.

2704
02:32:20,550 --> 02:32:22,950
You just need to do the work.
You know it's not about the,

2705
02:32:22,950 --> 02:32:25,510
it's not about the title.
It's about what work you're

2706
02:32:25,510 --> 02:32:29,830
doing with your authority.
And Robert told me.

2707
02:32:29,830 --> 02:32:32,880
That he felt that, you know,
Ross had made different

2708
02:32:32,880 --> 02:32:36,120
prophecies earlier on in his
life that were right on on

2709
02:32:36,120 --> 02:32:38,840
several different occasions.
He said that none of Ross's

2710
02:32:38,840 --> 02:32:41,520
prophecies after this meeting
came true.

2711
02:32:41,520 --> 02:32:44,640
And he kind of made some, you
know, embarrassing predictions

2712
02:32:44,640 --> 02:32:47,200
after that, that time period.
But he said that Fred kind of

2713
02:32:47,200 --> 02:32:49,960
stuck around trying to turn Ross
around in his mind.

2714
02:32:50,520 --> 02:32:54,880
And, you know, so Fred, so
Robert would say he felt that

2715
02:32:54,880 --> 02:32:58,080
Ross kind of became a bit too
prideful that caused him to lose

2716
02:32:58,080 --> 02:33:01,470
the spirit.
Fred kind of thought that he had

2717
02:33:01,470 --> 02:33:06,990
a conversation with Ross shortly
after he had his kind of his

2718
02:33:06,990 --> 02:33:09,750
dream vision experience, that he
took Ross out to dinner.

2719
02:33:10,150 --> 02:33:13,350
And he tried to talk to Ross
about celestial love because he

2720
02:33:13,350 --> 02:33:16,710
said Ross was really big in this
belief in competition.

2721
02:33:17,070 --> 02:33:20,270
He said that was my one doctoral
difference with Ross was that

2722
02:33:20,270 --> 02:33:24,110
Ross really believed that that
competition was kind of a key

2723
02:33:24,110 --> 02:33:27,340
force in the universe.
And Fred said that from his own

2724
02:33:27,340 --> 02:33:30,620
experiences, revelations, he
felt that love was the most

2725
02:33:31,420 --> 02:33:32,940
foundational principle of the
universe.

2726
02:33:32,940 --> 02:33:38,020
That the biggest motivation of
that God has is his love for us

2727
02:33:38,020 --> 02:33:40,580
and his love for others and
trying to uplift them to be what

2728
02:33:40,580 --> 02:33:43,220
he is.
And so Fred said before he would

2729
02:33:43,220 --> 02:33:47,100
share Ross this idea of of, you
know, this principle of total

2730
02:33:47,100 --> 02:33:51,180
commitment that he wanted to
convince him to on the Doctor's

2731
02:33:51,180 --> 02:33:54,080
celestial love because he can't
really, You have total

2732
02:33:54,080 --> 02:33:56,840
commitment with somebody who
sees you as competition and will

2733
02:33:56,840 --> 02:34:01,080
take advantage of you.
And so he took Ross out to

2734
02:34:01,080 --> 02:34:03,280
dinner to talk about the
principal.

2735
02:34:03,280 --> 02:34:06,320
You know, he didn't even tell
him about his his vision.

2736
02:34:06,320 --> 02:34:08,600
He says it wasn't even worth it
getting to that point unless we

2737
02:34:08,840 --> 02:34:10,840
were on the same page about
celestial love.

2738
02:34:10,840 --> 02:34:14,080
And they got in a big kind of
heated argument about this

2739
02:34:14,360 --> 02:34:17,010
concept, man.
It got to the point that that

2740
02:34:17,010 --> 02:34:20,410
Ross got so behemoth and so
ingrained, his own position that

2741
02:34:20,810 --> 02:34:24,210
Fred, Fred was like, you know,
Ross, I've witnessed with my own

2742
02:34:24,210 --> 02:34:28,450
eyes when I was a young man, a
mother bear, basically

2743
02:34:28,450 --> 02:34:30,290
sacrificed her life for her own
cups.

2744
02:34:30,290 --> 02:34:34,410
You know, she was willing to be
killed to try to protect her

2745
02:34:34,410 --> 02:34:37,650
babies.
So why wouldn't Jesus Christ

2746
02:34:37,650 --> 02:34:39,810
have that same kind of selfless
love for us?

2747
02:34:39,810 --> 02:34:43,410
You know that he's not doing it
for his own benefit and for his

2748
02:34:43,410 --> 02:34:48,260
own, you know, is because he's
in competition with others.

2749
02:34:48,780 --> 02:34:53,020
And he said that Ross got so
behemoth, he actually said that

2750
02:34:53,380 --> 02:34:56,740
Christ died for his own glory,
to be the second person on the

2751
02:34:56,740 --> 02:35:00,740
Trinity.
And Fred was like, well, that

2752
02:35:00,820 --> 02:35:04,220
is, that's heavy.
And that's.

2753
02:35:04,540 --> 02:35:07,220
You know, Fred felt that that
was blasphemy against.

2754
02:35:07,220 --> 02:35:10,980
The atonement on that occasion,
and he just sunk his head in

2755
02:35:10,980 --> 02:35:14,370
disappointment when you know
that that was Ross's kind of

2756
02:35:14,810 --> 02:35:17,490
response to him trying to
discuss this principle of

2757
02:35:17,490 --> 02:35:20,490
celestial love with him.
And he said he felt that Ross

2758
02:35:20,490 --> 02:35:25,090
went in the dark because he went
so far as to blasting the

2759
02:35:25,090 --> 02:35:27,410
Atonement on that occasion, if
that makes sense.

2760
02:35:29,450 --> 02:35:31,210
And you know, like.
I said part of it.

2761
02:35:32,850 --> 02:35:35,170
You know, I I think old age
could have been a factor.

2762
02:35:35,170 --> 02:35:38,560
Ross is very old and some
people, you know, a mass

2763
02:35:38,560 --> 02:35:42,040
alignment deny started denying
the atonement of Christ later on

2764
02:35:42,040 --> 02:35:46,640
in his life as an apostle.
And some some of his family

2765
02:35:46,640 --> 02:35:50,200
thought that maybe he was going
senile that kind of contributed

2766
02:35:50,200 --> 02:35:53,200
to him having, you know, getting
twisted up in his mind.

2767
02:35:53,200 --> 02:35:56,800
And so I, you know, Fred has
made comments that he doesn't

2768
02:35:56,800 --> 02:36:01,360
want to judge Ross Parsley.
And he thinks, you know that.

2769
02:36:01,680 --> 02:36:04,000
You know, he thinks Ross did a
very important work and that

2770
02:36:04,000 --> 02:36:07,040
Ross laid so many important
principles and foundations that

2771
02:36:07,040 --> 02:36:10,640
have very important history, but
that, you know, you got wrong in

2772
02:36:10,640 --> 02:36:13,440
doctrine and kind of fell in the
dark, you know, before his

2773
02:36:13,440 --> 02:36:15,680
death.
There are other people who think

2774
02:36:15,680 --> 02:36:18,360
that Ross was always big into
entertaining different new

2775
02:36:18,360 --> 02:36:21,440
ideas.
And there are people who accept,

2776
02:36:21,600 --> 02:36:23,680
you know, Ross's new priest of
teachings is valid.

2777
02:36:24,120 --> 02:36:28,680
And you know, I do think Ross
kind of expressed these

2778
02:36:28,680 --> 02:36:33,600
teachings in a 1985 pamphlet he
did called Priest of Expounded.

2779
02:36:34,000 --> 02:36:38,200
And I will say I've, I've kind
of said this, his ideas are kind

2780
02:36:38,200 --> 02:36:41,320
of screwed up in there.
He's got a bunch of these newer

2781
02:36:41,320 --> 02:36:44,200
ideas kind of twisted in and and
so if you see something that

2782
02:36:44,200 --> 02:36:46,640
doesn't make sense, it's
probably one of the newer ideas.

2783
02:36:46,960 --> 02:36:50,720
But there is also a lot of
genius stuff in there as well as

2784
02:36:50,720 --> 02:36:55,040
Ross then all of a sudden just
lose all inspiration that he had

2785
02:36:55,040 --> 02:36:57,200
previously had.
He just started to get kind of

2786
02:36:57,760 --> 02:37:00,800
darkened in his mind and some
things he started to change, you

2787
02:37:00,800 --> 02:37:04,510
know, his beliefs about
priesthood and you know started

2788
02:37:04,510 --> 02:37:07,070
to teach different things and
say that his former teachings

2789
02:37:07,070 --> 02:37:11,790
weren't correct, etcetera.
And you know, Ross kind of at

2790
02:37:11,790 --> 02:37:15,670
one point mentioned that Fred
felt that you know that he had

2791
02:37:15,670 --> 02:37:17,750
fallen.
He said that Ross's kind of

2792
02:37:17,750 --> 02:37:22,150
defense was that Joseph Smith
changed his ideas on different

2793
02:37:22,350 --> 02:37:23,710
things and developed them over
time.

2794
02:37:23,710 --> 02:37:27,430
And so why can't I change and
develop my ideas is kind of what

2795
02:37:27,430 --> 02:37:31,350
Ross said.
But for Fred, his big thing with

2796
02:37:31,940 --> 02:37:37,180
was that Ross's teachings, he
felt, were so true to Joseph

2797
02:37:37,180 --> 02:37:39,540
Smith's teachings that weren't
being taught about elsewhere.

2798
02:37:39,540 --> 02:37:43,500
Ross was really big on this idea
of there being a patriarchal

2799
02:37:43,500 --> 02:37:46,140
priesthood, which so many, so
few, he said.

2800
02:37:46,140 --> 02:37:48,740
No one in the church talks about
that, and very few of the

2801
02:37:48,740 --> 02:37:52,380
fundamentalists talk about it.
And this idea of there being all

2802
02:37:52,380 --> 02:37:55,300
these, you know, the priesthood
foundation that Ross taught,

2803
02:37:56,410 --> 02:37:59,410
Fred would later find lots of
documents in the archives that

2804
02:37:59,410 --> 02:38:02,530
would really substantiate a lot
of these different ideas.

2805
02:38:02,930 --> 02:38:07,370
And so, you know, Ross, you
know, Fred still gave credit for

2806
02:38:07,370 --> 02:38:09,010
all the good things that Ross
taught.

2807
02:38:09,530 --> 02:38:12,450
And he said that my goal when
following Ross's teachings is

2808
02:38:12,450 --> 02:38:15,730
because they were true to what
Joseph Smith had taught about

2809
02:38:15,730 --> 02:38:18,930
priests and about doctrine.
And so when Ross starts going

2810
02:38:18,930 --> 02:38:22,450
off into a different direction,
that's not quite fitting what

2811
02:38:22,450 --> 02:38:25,190
Joseph Smith taught.
I'm going to stick more with

2812
02:38:25,190 --> 02:38:29,030
what Joseph Smith taught.
And that's really, you know, big

2813
02:38:29,030 --> 02:38:32,230
part of Fred's ministry was
going into the archives and

2814
02:38:32,230 --> 02:38:36,030
publishing tons of new material
that had never been published.

2815
02:38:36,030 --> 02:38:38,870
You know, lots of new Adam
Godman sermons that never been

2816
02:38:38,870 --> 02:38:43,310
published.
You know, he's published 10

2817
02:38:43,310 --> 02:38:45,750
different thick books on
different aspects of church

2818
02:38:45,750 --> 02:38:48,270
history.
He's published over 40 different

2819
02:38:48,270 --> 02:38:50,430
pamphlets on doctrine and, you
know, 20.

2820
02:38:50,990 --> 02:38:53,550
Yes, we probably have twenty
others that never were published

2821
02:38:53,550 --> 02:38:57,190
or printed, and she was really
big into digging.

2822
02:38:57,190 --> 02:39:01,110
Up what was Joseph Smith's
secret teachings about authority

2823
02:39:01,110 --> 02:39:05,070
and about priesthood?
And he was he felt Ross did such

2824
02:39:05,110 --> 02:39:08,310
a great job and kind of passing
down a lot of this, these

2825
02:39:08,350 --> 02:39:12,750
foundational ideas.
So you know some people.

2826
02:39:12,990 --> 02:39:15,870
You know, we have a problem with
this idea that you know, can a

2827
02:39:15,870 --> 02:39:18,830
profit fall into the dark.
But I think Joseph Smith's

2828
02:39:18,830 --> 02:39:21,810
teachings and revelations warned
about that.

2829
02:39:22,210 --> 02:39:24,970
It's in the Joseph Smith
translation of the New Testament

2830
02:39:24,970 --> 02:39:28,890
where it's as if your eye who
sees for you becomes corrupted.

2831
02:39:28,890 --> 02:39:32,050
You need to pluck him out, you
know, and it's referencing, you

2832
02:39:32,050 --> 02:39:37,290
know, if a church leader ends
up, you know, changing his, you

2833
02:39:37,290 --> 02:39:39,170
know, ends up becoming corrupt
in his doctrine.

2834
02:39:39,170 --> 02:39:41,330
That's something that Brigham
Young hints that over and over

2835
02:39:41,330 --> 02:39:44,850
again saying, well, you know, my
biggest fear is that Latter Day

2836
02:39:44,850 --> 02:39:48,010
Saints could be led by one man
to under destruction.

2837
02:39:48,570 --> 02:39:51,330
And so there is this, you know,
it's, you know, there's this

2838
02:39:51,330 --> 02:39:55,410
idea in early Mormonism that you
could, you know, that prophet

2839
02:39:55,410 --> 02:39:57,810
could fall.
And you know, you actually see

2840
02:39:57,810 --> 02:40:01,370
that in the Doctrine Covenants
with Joseph Smith, where DNC43

2841
02:40:01,370 --> 02:40:06,210
says if Joseph Smith falls, he
will appoint someone else in his

2842
02:40:06,410 --> 02:40:08,890
stead to carry on.
You know he will have no other

2843
02:40:08,890 --> 02:40:11,850
power but to appoint someone
else to carry on.

2844
02:40:12,330 --> 02:40:15,650
You know his work and you know
so.

2845
02:40:16,590 --> 02:40:19,070
Joseph Smith actually did that
with David Whitmer, where he

2846
02:40:19,150 --> 02:40:22,670
ordained David Whitmer to be his
successor in case he did fall.

2847
02:40:24,110 --> 02:40:26,310
But ironically, David Whitmer is
the one who fell.

2848
02:40:26,310 --> 02:40:29,150
Well, Joseph Smith stayed
through and received greater

2849
02:40:29,150 --> 02:40:31,110
light and knowledge.
So.

2850
02:40:33,230 --> 02:40:36,990
Fred kind of believed that the
Lord, similar to how, you know,

2851
02:40:37,710 --> 02:40:41,670
the Lord passed the mantle on to
Ross, that he felt that the Lord

2852
02:40:41,670 --> 02:40:45,830
kind of passed the mantle of
revelation on to him after Ross.

2853
02:40:46,220 --> 02:40:49,260
And so Fred really tried to
carry on a lot of these

2854
02:40:49,260 --> 02:40:52,860
teachings and kind of perpetuate
them in his, you know, in his

2855
02:40:52,860 --> 02:40:56,540
family circles and those who,
you know, stumble upon his

2856
02:40:56,540 --> 02:40:58,060
writings and want to be taught
by him.

2857
02:40:58,340 --> 02:41:04,180
I think both Ross and Fred there
were extremely gifted men when

2858
02:41:04,180 --> 02:41:07,220
it came to teaching and sharing
the principles of the gospel,

2859
02:41:07,500 --> 02:41:10,860
but I don't think they fully
magnified themselves as leaders.

2860
02:41:10,900 --> 02:41:16,610
I think Fred mentioned that Ross
never fully what Ross was such

2861
02:41:16,610 --> 02:41:18,930
an individual so he never really
led anyone.

2862
02:41:19,250 --> 02:41:22,370
He just kind of would teach
people and enjoyed having the

2863
02:41:22,370 --> 02:41:26,450
friendly association.
And you know I think Fred kind

2864
02:41:26,450 --> 02:41:29,610
of in a similar way was way more
of a a teacher than a leader.

2865
02:41:29,610 --> 02:41:33,530
Lots of people appreciated Fred
teaching you know so much on

2866
02:41:33,530 --> 02:41:35,970
doctrine.
You know, when the when the a UB

2867
02:41:35,970 --> 02:41:38,650
wanted to start doing
endowments, they actually

2868
02:41:38,650 --> 02:41:42,170
reached out to Fred wanting to
know what research he had on the

2869
02:41:42,210 --> 02:41:45,230
endowment ceremony to, you know,
because they were trying to

2870
02:41:45,390 --> 02:41:48,030
start doing those things.
And so a lot of people

2871
02:41:48,030 --> 02:41:51,190
throughout fundamentalism
appreciate, you know, Fred's

2872
02:41:51,350 --> 02:41:54,590
teachings.
And I would just kind of say one

2873
02:41:54,590 --> 02:41:57,910
thing that Fred would say is
that Joseph Smith in at the

2874
02:41:57,910 --> 02:42:00,950
October 1840 general Conference
said that the priesthood is the

2875
02:42:00,950 --> 02:42:03,390
channel through which all
knowledge, doctrine and the plan

2876
02:42:03,390 --> 02:42:06,670
of salvation and every important
matter is revealed from heaven.

2877
02:42:07,070 --> 02:42:11,750
And so Fred felt that Ross by.
Getting some significant

2878
02:42:11,750 --> 02:42:15,190
revelations on priesthood and
then he also getting some you

2879
02:42:15,190 --> 02:42:18,470
know, revelations that built
upon the foundation Ross did was

2880
02:42:18,470 --> 02:42:23,230
kind of demonstrating this kind
of idea of the IT should be the

2881
02:42:23,230 --> 02:42:27,430
channel through which important
revelation should come to the

2882
02:42:27,430 --> 02:42:30,950
Latter Day Saints.
So yeah.

2883
02:42:30,950 --> 02:42:34,310
Do you want to kind of get into
anything else?

2884
02:42:34,310 --> 02:42:35,670
I think that yeah.
Yeah.

2885
02:42:35,670 --> 02:42:37,030
I got a couple questions.
I.

2886
02:42:37,870 --> 02:42:40,350
Was, was that the bulk of what
you wanted to go over there,

2887
02:42:40,350 --> 02:42:43,350
Jacob?
Yeah, I kind of, you know, we

2888
02:42:43,350 --> 02:42:45,030
kind of went.
Some different directions this

2889
02:42:45,030 --> 02:42:48,630
time, but I I do think we
covered a lot of important

2890
02:42:48,630 --> 02:42:50,870
history.
So let me ask you this.

2891
02:42:52,190 --> 02:42:57,270
What at any one time was, was
the the organization that Ross

2892
02:42:57,270 --> 02:43:00,670
started, the Church of the First
Born, was it organized in any

2893
02:43:00,670 --> 02:43:03,230
sort of meaningful way?
Right.

2894
02:43:03,230 --> 02:43:06,310
Did you have places of meeting?
Did you what?

2895
02:43:06,350 --> 02:43:08,750
Were there temples, any of those
things?

2896
02:43:10,380 --> 02:43:14,900
So it was a very.
Loose association where people

2897
02:43:14,900 --> 02:43:17,460
would, it was very informal and
very loose.

2898
02:43:18,020 --> 02:43:20,620
And you know, when I've been
working on, you know, I've been

2899
02:43:20,620 --> 02:43:23,700
working on my own kind of
history of lebaronism currently,

2900
02:43:24,220 --> 02:43:27,900
and I was dividing it up into
different sections of different

2901
02:43:27,900 --> 02:43:29,340
parts.
I was wanting to, you know,

2902
02:43:29,340 --> 02:43:34,870
compiling a section on Ross and
Fred and I was right in spread

2903
02:43:34,870 --> 02:43:36,430
at one time, entitled the
Pamphlet.

2904
02:43:36,430 --> 02:43:38,510
The restoration of the Church of
the first born.

2905
02:43:38,750 --> 02:43:41,350
And I like that and I thought
that might be a good heading.

2906
02:43:41,350 --> 02:43:44,310
But then I realized, well I
really consider that that you

2907
02:43:44,310 --> 02:43:47,510
know Ross did was restored the
knowledge of the Church of the

2908
02:43:47,510 --> 02:43:52,030
first born and he he perpetuated
the this, you know this this

2909
02:43:52,030 --> 02:43:54,870
patriarchal priest said that had
been passed down you know this

2910
02:43:55,030 --> 02:43:58,510
these priests and keys
pertaining to the temple and he

2911
02:43:58,590 --> 02:44:02,110
set men apart to this authority.
And so it really was a very

2912
02:44:03,510 --> 02:44:06,630
loose organization under Ross
and and Fred that was one of

2913
02:44:06,630 --> 02:44:10,270
Fred's you know, kind of
disagreements with how things

2914
02:44:10,270 --> 02:44:12,470
were run.
Ross kind of made a comment once

2915
02:44:12,950 --> 02:44:15,350
that he's like, you know, I'm
kind of glad I don't have a ton

2916
02:44:15,350 --> 02:44:18,710
of followers like my brothers
did because otherwise I wouldn't

2917
02:44:18,710 --> 02:44:23,270
have any time to for myself to
to study and think it's kind of

2918
02:44:23,550 --> 02:44:27,150
what what Ross thought.
He liked having alone time to to

2919
02:44:27,430 --> 02:44:31,270
ponder on things and to and to
think about doctrine.

2920
02:44:31,310 --> 02:44:34,670
And you know, he he wasn't
really too big on being a

2921
02:44:34,670 --> 02:44:48,830
leader, Fred said.
Let me ask you this.

2922
02:44:35,550 --> 02:44:39,150
Ross was really more of an
individualist, individualist,

2923
02:44:39,150 --> 02:44:43,150
and those who were drawn to Ross
were very individualist people.

2924
02:44:43,150 --> 02:44:46,630
If that makes sense.
Yeah, no, that that makes a lot

2925
02:44:46,630 --> 02:44:47,190
of sense.
Let.

2926
02:44:48,830 --> 02:44:52,430
What is the state of?
For lack of a better turn, I'm

2927
02:44:52,430 --> 02:44:54,190
going to call the baronism.
What?

2928
02:44:54,190 --> 02:44:56,750
What's the state of it today?
What does it look like?

2929
02:44:56,750 --> 02:44:58,590
Has it grown?
Has it shrunk?

2930
02:44:58,870 --> 02:45:03,020
What does it look like today?
So.

2931
02:45:03,460 --> 02:45:08,180
You know, I would say that, you
know, they're, they're.

2932
02:45:08,180 --> 02:45:11,860
Really kind of two main groups
that tried to, you know, 22 main

2933
02:45:11,860 --> 02:45:14,780
lines that tried to carry on
Ross's ideas.

2934
02:45:15,220 --> 02:45:18,700
There's Fred, who tried to kind
of say I'm carrying out the

2935
02:45:18,700 --> 02:45:23,100
earlier Ross teachings that are
the I feel are consistent with

2936
02:45:23,100 --> 02:45:27,980
Joseph Smith's teachings.
And then Tom Green kind of was a

2937
02:45:27,980 --> 02:45:31,780
guy who was true to Ross, his
ideas to the end, and he really,

2938
02:45:32,500 --> 02:45:35,260
really tried to defend Ross's
later theology.

2939
02:45:35,260 --> 02:45:41,140
And and Tom kind of got a bit
more of an organization in the

2940
02:45:41,140 --> 02:45:44,900
early 2000s where he actually
got quite a bit of, he went on

2941
02:45:44,900 --> 02:45:49,300
the, he got on the Internet, he
got in touch with quite a bit of

2942
02:45:49,300 --> 02:45:52,180
different fundamentalists.
And he actually started to kind

2943
02:45:52,180 --> 02:45:56,050
of ordain a lot of men as
patriarchs and and kind of get

2944
02:45:56,050 --> 02:45:58,770
them kind of organized to a
degree under him.

2945
02:45:59,410 --> 02:46:04,770
But you know, Tom ended up going
to prison for some of the things

2946
02:46:04,770 --> 02:46:09,410
he did and his organization kind
of disintegrated partly because

2947
02:46:09,810 --> 02:46:15,210
Tom kind of it was so loosely
fragmented that different people

2948
02:46:15,210 --> 02:46:17,010
kind of just felt they could
just go their different

2949
02:46:17,010 --> 02:46:21,810
directions.
And you know Fred kind of in the

2950
02:46:21,810 --> 02:46:24,210
early 90s kind of started his
own organization.

2951
02:46:24,690 --> 02:46:27,770
But I I do feel like you know,
Fred gather quite a bit of

2952
02:46:27,770 --> 02:46:30,730
people over the years.
You know, Fred, Tom probably

2953
02:46:30,730 --> 02:46:33,770
converted dozens.
I think Fred probably converted

2954
02:46:33,770 --> 02:46:38,570
hundreds to the to Liberianism.
But you know, Fred wasn't

2955
02:46:38,570 --> 02:46:41,250
really.
As gifted as a leader as he was

2956
02:46:41,250 --> 02:46:44,170
a theologian.
And so some people have issues

2957
02:46:44,170 --> 02:46:47,570
with some of Fred's teachings,
like on, say, the principal and

2958
02:46:47,570 --> 02:46:50,250
total commitment in this
celestial family order.

2959
02:46:51,580 --> 02:46:53,340
You know, because Fred was less
than perfect.

2960
02:46:53,340 --> 02:46:57,500
In it, in his leadership of his
family circle and you know, I I

2961
02:46:57,500 --> 02:47:01,260
would just point out that we
don't reject gloral marriage and

2962
02:47:01,260 --> 02:47:04,900
DNC132 just because Joseph was
less than perfect.

2963
02:47:05,180 --> 02:47:08,780
In his application of pro
matching, DNC132 speaks about

2964
02:47:09,020 --> 02:47:11,940
Joseph having some sins and
transgressions that Emma need,

2965
02:47:12,300 --> 02:47:15,660
you know, and trespasses that
Emma should forgive Joseph for.

2966
02:47:15,660 --> 02:47:19,900
So, you know, Joseph wasn't as
you know, completely perfect

2967
02:47:19,900 --> 02:47:22,720
either.
But I I do think that both, you

2968
02:47:22,720 --> 02:47:25,520
know, these different men who
are ordained by Ross did try to

2969
02:47:25,600 --> 02:47:29,440
continue this idea of this
patriarchal family order in

2970
02:47:29,440 --> 02:47:32,160
their own different ways that
that there was, There was Tom

2971
02:47:32,160 --> 02:47:33,920
who tried to do his
organization.

2972
02:47:47,030 --> 02:47:48,110
And then there are also other
men who were.

2973
02:47:34,280 --> 02:47:36,480
Fred tried to do his
organization that was trying to

2974
02:47:36,480 --> 02:47:41,000
be a bit more, have a bit more
organization, bit more structure

2975
02:47:41,000 --> 02:47:44,600
than than than what Ross was
initially.

2976
02:47:48,110 --> 02:47:51,270
Just ordained as patriarchs by
Ross, who just stayed as

2977
02:47:51,270 --> 02:47:53,950
independent patriarchs.
And so there are actually quite

2978
02:47:53,950 --> 02:47:57,990
a bit of kind of independent
Ross Lebernite patriarchs out

2979
02:47:57,990 --> 02:48:00,630
there who are just kind of
trying to carry on this family

2980
02:48:00,630 --> 02:48:05,150
order kind of idea in their own
rights, if that makes sense.

2981
02:48:05,750 --> 02:48:11,350
So, you know, I got into Fred's
kind of family order and I was

2982
02:48:11,710 --> 02:48:13,990
and I absolutely love the
doctrine.

2983
02:48:14,070 --> 02:48:17,030
And I thought Fred was
absolutely extremely gifted

2984
02:48:17,030 --> 02:48:19,430
teacher and very generous with
this time.

2985
02:48:19,430 --> 02:48:21,870
There's nobody that would reach
out to him with the doctoral

2986
02:48:21,870 --> 02:48:25,990
question that you know,
sincerely that he wouldn't take

2987
02:48:26,310 --> 02:48:29,270
a significant amount of time to
answer their question and put an

2988
02:48:29,270 --> 02:48:32,390
effort to try to find, you know,
whatever quotes or whatever

2989
02:48:32,390 --> 02:48:35,670
historical sources to answer
their questions.

2990
02:48:36,750 --> 02:48:42,290
When I got, you know, involved
with Fred in 2015, you know, I I

2991
02:48:42,290 --> 02:48:44,010
saw that he had all this great
doctrine.

2992
02:48:44,010 --> 02:48:46,610
But he wasn't.
He still didn't really have

2993
02:48:46,610 --> 02:48:49,130
quite an organization.
He had several loose families

2994
02:48:49,130 --> 02:48:52,130
that were associated with him
who accepted, you know, the

2995
02:48:52,130 --> 02:48:55,930
teachings that as he is, as he
published and taught them and

2996
02:48:55,970 --> 02:48:58,770
you know, as they fit with what
Joseph Smith was teaching about,

2997
02:48:59,130 --> 02:49:01,650
you know, the Church of the
First Born in Nauvoo.

2998
02:49:02,690 --> 02:49:04,730
But it wasn't really a full
organization.

2999
02:49:04,730 --> 02:49:09,310
And so, you know, I really felt
I I wasn't really looking to,

3000
02:49:10,110 --> 02:49:12,630
you know, for authority.
I was just looking for when I

3001
02:49:12,910 --> 02:49:15,870
became a fundamentalist, I was
looking for people who believe

3002
02:49:15,870 --> 02:49:19,350
all these old doctrines.
I was like, you know, who who's

3003
02:49:19,350 --> 02:49:23,710
got the old doctrines and who's
also got kind of new ideas and

3004
02:49:23,710 --> 02:49:26,230
new revelations that build on
those old ideas.

3005
02:49:26,550 --> 02:49:30,630
And I really was drawn to, you
know, some of Fred's ideas and

3006
02:49:30,630 --> 02:49:33,310
his writings that, you know,
kind of build upon the out of

3007
02:49:33,310 --> 02:49:36,430
God doctrine and offer kind of
different insights and

3008
02:49:36,790 --> 02:49:39,590
perspectives into different
aspects of early Mormon

3009
02:49:39,590 --> 02:49:43,790
theology.
And so I I got ordained to the

3010
02:49:44,070 --> 02:49:47,510
the to the Priested by Fred and
I for me, when I got ordained, I

3011
02:49:47,510 --> 02:49:51,310
kind of had an attitude that I
needed to, you know, that

3012
02:49:51,470 --> 02:49:55,190
Priested is more of a
responsibility than, you know, a

3013
02:49:55,190 --> 02:49:58,710
lot of people are really just
seeking, you know, authority to,

3014
02:49:58,790 --> 02:49:59,990
you know, to say I have
authority.

3015
02:49:59,990 --> 02:50:02,670
But I think Priested is more
responsibility than just

3016
02:50:02,670 --> 02:50:07,580
authority by itself.
And so I I felt a responsibility

3017
02:50:07,580 --> 02:50:10,780
to try to understand all of this
history and understand this

3018
02:50:10,780 --> 02:50:14,420
doctrine and really to try to be
a missionary, to try to, you

3019
02:50:14,420 --> 02:50:16,460
know, help share this with other
people.

3020
02:50:16,900 --> 02:50:21,740
And you, you know that, you
know, there were some other

3021
02:50:21,740 --> 02:50:24,060
people that kind of were
involved with doing that.

3022
02:50:24,060 --> 02:50:29,450
But you know, there were, there
were some, you know, issues with

3023
02:50:29,450 --> 02:50:32,410
Fred Fred's family circles.
I'm not going to go too much

3024
02:50:32,410 --> 02:50:34,730
into all of the the issues that
are there.

3025
02:50:34,730 --> 02:50:38,250
But I I would just say that
eventually me and my wife ended

3026
02:50:38,250 --> 02:50:41,490
up kind of having our own, you
know, personal distancing

3027
02:50:41,490 --> 02:50:45,930
ourselves from some of those
issues that were coming up in in

3028
02:50:45,930 --> 02:50:48,730
Fred's family that I think
personally contributed, you

3029
02:50:48,730 --> 02:50:54,210
know, to his work not really
coming full to full fruition, if

3030
02:50:54,210 --> 02:50:58,240
that makes sense.
You know, I think that you know

3031
02:50:58,240 --> 02:51:01,480
temple ordinances are absolutely
super important and should be

3032
02:51:01,840 --> 02:51:04,600
treated with kind of the utmost
respect.

3033
02:51:04,600 --> 02:51:08,720
I think that unfortunately some
individuals who aren't haven't

3034
02:51:08,720 --> 02:51:12,600
experienced temple ordinances in
a temple don't understand, you

3035
02:51:12,680 --> 02:51:15,840
know, how respectful you should
treat those ordinances.

3036
02:51:17,360 --> 02:51:20,040
You know I I think that another
thing that then this is

3037
02:51:20,040 --> 02:51:23,600
something that applies to
fundamentals in general but I

3038
02:51:23,600 --> 02:51:27,900
think I I I apply it to my own
backyard as I think that when

3039
02:51:27,900 --> 02:51:32,820
sexual abuse happens in in our
communities it should be treated

3040
02:51:33,420 --> 02:51:35,700
severely it should be reported
to police.

3041
02:51:36,700 --> 02:51:40,420
You know I I do think that to be
honest.

3042
02:51:40,420 --> 02:51:44,460
So I've I've interviewed you
know did lots of historical

3043
02:51:44,460 --> 02:51:47,380
conversations with Fred,
conversations with Tom Green

3044
02:51:47,380 --> 02:51:51,340
conversations with Robert Black.
I actually, point blank told Tom

3045
02:51:51,340 --> 02:51:54,980
Green when I first reached out
to him that, you know, I'm

3046
02:51:55,820 --> 02:51:59,610
because he actually was kept
sparking conversations with me.

3047
02:51:59,930 --> 02:52:03,370
And I kind of eventually was
like, you know, I because you

3048
02:52:03,530 --> 02:52:05,650
went to prison for an underage
marriage.

3049
02:52:05,930 --> 02:52:10,090
I've just always kind of you
know, felt to you know keep my

3050
02:52:10,090 --> 02:52:11,490
distance because of that, you
know.

3051
02:52:12,330 --> 02:52:14,810
And I just guys said just so you
know, I I'm just I don't

3052
02:52:14,810 --> 02:52:17,290
sanction those kinds of things.
That was literally my first

3053
02:52:17,810 --> 02:52:22,370
private conversation with him.
And Tom Green's response was,

3054
02:52:22,850 --> 02:52:26,800
you know, there there are some,
there are some fundamentalists

3055
02:52:26,800 --> 02:52:28,960
who trace.
You who either been friends with

3056
02:52:28,960 --> 02:52:33,520
Tom or received authority from
Tom, who will defend, you know,

3057
02:52:33,520 --> 02:52:37,000
doing, you know, Tom, defend
what Tom did.

3058
02:52:37,480 --> 02:52:41,880
And it's for for me, I look, Tom
Green didn't defend his actions

3059
02:52:41,880 --> 02:52:44,840
when I interacted with him.
He said they were a mistake.

3060
02:52:44,880 --> 02:52:47,200
I shouldn't have done, I
shouldn't have done things the

3061
02:52:47,200 --> 02:52:50,560
way I did things and I paid the
price for what I did.

3062
02:52:51,040 --> 02:52:54,440
And so Tom Green was repentant
for what he did.

3063
02:52:55,240 --> 02:52:59,760
And so I do think that we need
to in our communities, do need

3064
02:52:59,760 --> 02:53:02,960
to make it clear that some of
these things that have happened

3065
02:53:02,960 --> 02:53:07,600
in the past are unacceptable and
shouldn't be, shouldn't, you

3066
02:53:07,600 --> 02:53:09,360
know, be defended, shouldn't be
continued.

3067
02:53:09,360 --> 02:53:14,600
Like just like with the problems
with arranged marriages and kind

3068
02:53:14,600 --> 02:53:17,320
of you know what what was going
on with some of the the

3069
02:53:17,640 --> 02:53:22,200
fundamentalists in the night,
you know, in the mid 1900s, You

3070
02:53:22,200 --> 02:53:25,520
know, I I think that we should
learn lessons from our history

3071
02:53:25,520 --> 02:53:31,000
and try to bring forth the best
possible version of, you know,

3072
02:53:31,000 --> 02:53:34,360
what we believe to be true and
what we believe to be doctrinal,

3073
02:53:34,360 --> 02:53:38,440
if that makes sense.
That makes a ton of sense.

3074
02:53:39,680 --> 02:53:42,320
I I want to commend you for
going there cuz I know that

3075
02:53:42,320 --> 02:53:47,040
that's a little uncomfortable
and and and that's good.

3076
02:53:47,120 --> 02:53:51,200
I'm I'm glad you went there and
I agree with you.

3077
02:53:51,280 --> 02:53:53,400
We we can't tolerate that
anymore.

3078
02:53:54,660 --> 02:53:57,900
I think for a long time there
was this idea of just turning a

3079
02:53:57,900 --> 02:54:02,420
blind eye, and that hasn't
gotten us anywhere except in

3080
02:54:02,420 --> 02:54:07,940
more pain and more suffering.
And anytime you use the gospel

3081
02:54:07,940 --> 02:54:12,940
to inflict that kind of pain and
suffering, you're just begging

3082
02:54:13,420 --> 02:54:17,060
to.
You're you're just begging.

3083
02:54:17,060 --> 02:54:21,420
For God's judgment.
And we have to root that out.

3084
02:54:21,830 --> 02:54:25,350
At every step, every level, I
don't care if it's the LDS

3085
02:54:25,350 --> 02:54:26,710
Church or if it's
fundamentalism.

3086
02:54:26,750 --> 02:54:31,030
It's got to go.
Those days have to end.

3087
02:54:32,350 --> 02:54:34,870
Let me ask you, this is, is that
the answer?

3088
02:54:35,510 --> 02:54:37,110
Oh, go ahead.
So.

3089
02:54:37,110 --> 02:54:38,470
So, yeah, I would.
I would say.

3090
02:54:38,470 --> 02:54:42,350
You know you know I I still you
know I'll come up because you

3091
02:54:42,350 --> 02:54:46,350
know I I felt like you know I I
totally absolutely respect all

3092
02:54:46,350 --> 02:54:50,110
of Fred's great theological and
historical work.

3093
02:54:51,460 --> 02:54:55,300
But like I said some of the
things that you know he has kind

3094
02:54:55,300 --> 02:54:58,100
of turned a blind eye into in
his own family circle.

3095
02:54:58,100 --> 02:55:01,260
And I would say it's you know
issues with nepotism are you

3096
02:55:01,260 --> 02:55:07,540
know things that you know I
couldn't sustain and that I I

3097
02:55:07,700 --> 02:55:11,180
you know I think that we as
fundamentals do need to do

3098
02:55:11,180 --> 02:55:13,940
better.
You know we will point to you

3099
02:55:13,940 --> 02:55:16,260
know and and the and the only US
church needs to do better as

3100
02:55:16,260 --> 02:55:18,280
well.
You know when when the stories

3101
02:55:18,280 --> 02:55:21,000
that have come out in recent
years of things that have

3102
02:55:21,000 --> 02:55:24,080
happened and how things were
handled and in certain cases in

3103
02:55:24,080 --> 02:55:26,120
the LDS church and you know we
can't.

3104
02:55:26,400 --> 02:55:28,960
You know we we'll point to the
Catholics and talk about how

3105
02:55:29,280 --> 02:55:35,760
corrupt and how wrongly they
they they are for you know for

3106
02:55:35,800 --> 02:55:38,280
for covering up all the
systematic abuse that's

3107
02:55:38,280 --> 02:55:40,440
happened.
But if it's in, you know, your

3108
02:55:40,440 --> 02:55:44,000
own community, your own faith
community, if it's in your own

3109
02:55:44,000 --> 02:55:47,880
family circle, you know you need
to be.

3110
02:55:48,200 --> 02:55:50,960
If you're going to criticize
that in other communities, you

3111
02:55:50,960 --> 02:55:53,640
need to be, you know, not
covering it up in your own

3112
02:55:53,640 --> 02:55:56,040
circle.
And you know, we need to do

3113
02:55:56,600 --> 02:55:59,080
better in that regard.
And you know, I think a lot of

3114
02:55:59,200 --> 02:56:03,520
fundamentalists are in agreement
that we should do better in

3115
02:56:03,520 --> 02:56:08,160
those kinds of things.
So I don't say this haphazardly.

3116
02:56:08,320 --> 02:56:09,280
I'm.
I'm dead.

3117
02:56:09,280 --> 02:56:15,080
Serious, if we're where I
worship at, was engaged in any

3118
02:56:15,080 --> 02:56:19,150
of that.
You you can take it to the bank.

3119
02:56:19,990 --> 02:56:25,830
This microphone would get hot
and a big damned hurry and and

3120
02:56:26,830 --> 02:56:30,950
that's just the way it is.
I care as we all should.

3121
02:56:30,950 --> 02:56:35,270
We should care so much about
what Joseph did.

3122
02:56:35,950 --> 02:56:40,550
You know and and I I just got
done being at Carthage jail

3123
02:56:41,470 --> 02:56:43,870
right.
This is a guy who laid down his

3124
02:56:43,870 --> 02:56:47,500
life for this.
If we don't have at least that

3125
02:56:47,740 --> 02:56:52,860
same kind of passion for this,
if we do, we should be willing

3126
02:56:52,860 --> 02:56:57,180
to call our own selves out when
something's bad is happening and

3127
02:56:57,180 --> 02:57:03,380
then be able to root that out so
it doesn't become systemic

3128
02:57:03,380 --> 02:57:07,140
within within any organization
or or any belief system.

3129
02:57:07,620 --> 02:57:09,340
So no, I couldn't agree with you
more.

3130
02:57:11,340 --> 02:57:14,340
Let me ask you this real quick
as.

3131
02:57:16,460 --> 02:57:19,180
As.
I look around now.

3132
02:57:19,180 --> 02:57:22,620
And I see lebaronism, it's
really kind of fractured.

3133
02:57:22,700 --> 02:57:26,580
And I I'm not saying that to to
attack or criticize or anything

3134
02:57:26,580 --> 02:57:31,940
like that, but it it does raise
the question of what's the

3135
02:57:31,940 --> 02:57:34,300
future hold, what do you see the
future being for?

3136
02:57:34,300 --> 02:57:40,660
Lebaronism now, because it it's
it's very, very, very fractured.

3137
02:57:41,130 --> 02:57:42,810
How?
How is it?

3138
02:57:43,330 --> 02:57:46,090
Is that the destiny that it's
going to always have is just

3139
02:57:46,090 --> 02:57:51,250
being fragmented everywhere?
Well, I I think that.

3140
02:57:51,370 --> 02:57:55,850
Fred had some good ideas on
improving kind of the concepts

3141
02:57:55,890 --> 02:57:58,730
that Ross taught.
As Fred would say that Ross had

3142
02:57:58,730 --> 02:58:02,130
a great doctrinal foundation,
but he didn't have the full

3143
02:58:02,130 --> 02:58:06,890
House of how these ideas were to
ultimately be organized in you

3144
02:58:06,890 --> 02:58:09,740
know, into I do think that Ross
had some ideas about

3145
02:58:09,740 --> 02:58:12,100
organization but he didn't fully
develop them.

3146
02:58:12,100 --> 02:58:16,220
I do think that thread by going
back and and kind of looking at

3147
02:58:16,340 --> 02:58:19,540
early church history and also
you know study you know what

3148
02:58:19,860 --> 02:58:22,420
Brigham Young and John Taylor
believed about these higher

3149
02:58:22,420 --> 02:58:26,060
principles that you know there
is supposed to be, you know,

3150
02:58:26,140 --> 02:58:30,500
union is in a very important
principle and it's really what

3151
02:58:30,500 --> 02:58:33,860
gave Brigham Young and the
apostles that followed him the

3152
02:58:33,860 --> 02:58:37,530
power that they had to come out
West and to accomplish all the

3153
02:58:37,530 --> 02:58:42,410
great things that they did.
And you know there's a I I see

3154
02:58:42,450 --> 02:58:45,810
absolute benefit to the family
organization in this

3155
02:58:45,810 --> 02:58:49,130
decentralization of authority
and power being spread out among

3156
02:58:49,130 --> 02:58:52,330
lots of families.
You know, there's a benefit to

3157
02:58:52,330 --> 02:58:56,690
that because you can't be led by
one man to all go in error the

3158
02:58:56,690 --> 02:59:00,970
same way.
But you know the downside to the

3159
02:59:01,570 --> 02:59:06,700
the the, you know, the
looseness, the lack of you know,

3160
02:59:06,860 --> 02:59:11,540
you, the lack of being united
and organized, is that you can't

3161
02:59:11,540 --> 02:59:15,380
get as much done and you can't
accomplish as great of things as

3162
02:59:15,380 --> 02:59:19,860
you could if you were organized.
Joseph Smith repeatedly in the

3163
02:59:19,900 --> 02:59:22,380
last years of his life would say
that union is power.

3164
02:59:22,660 --> 02:59:25,420
And he was always talking about
how we, the the Saints, needed

3165
02:59:25,420 --> 02:59:29,380
to be united to accomplish the
work that the Lord intended for

3166
02:59:29,380 --> 02:59:33,010
them to do.
And so, you know, and that's

3167
02:59:33,090 --> 02:59:35,850
kind of why Brigham Young was.
And I think that these other

3168
02:59:35,850 --> 02:59:38,450
guys who went off in their own
different directions, even

3169
02:59:38,450 --> 02:59:41,690
though they felt justified under
the Kingdom building ideas to go

3170
02:59:41,690 --> 02:59:45,530
set up their own churches,
ultimately, all of the churches

3171
02:59:45,530 --> 02:59:48,490
that were set up that didn't
really follow Brigham Young,

3172
02:59:48,490 --> 02:59:52,890
they all really withered away
and they most of them

3173
02:59:52,890 --> 02:59:56,950
disappeared like you can't.
There is no real trace of Lyman

3174
02:59:56,950 --> 02:59:59,590
White's colony.
And it's a shame that he didn't

3175
02:59:59,590 --> 03:00:04,390
answer the call to come out to
Utah and be united with Brigham

3176
03:00:04,390 --> 03:00:07,390
Young and the other apostles.
And so I would say that, you

3177
03:00:07,390 --> 03:00:10,350
know, Ross and Fred were both
brilliant theologians.

3178
03:00:10,350 --> 03:00:14,470
And through their doctrines, I
see a bright future if they were

3179
03:00:14,470 --> 03:00:18,630
put into full practice according
to, you know, at the best

3180
03:00:18,630 --> 03:00:21,070
practice according to what the
early brethren taught.

3181
03:00:21,870 --> 03:00:24,870
And you know I.
Hope to eventually see the day

3182
03:00:24,870 --> 03:00:28,110
that there is kind of more
organization and that there is

3183
03:00:28,110 --> 03:00:32,150
better union.
It brings to mind a quote by

3184
03:00:32,390 --> 03:00:35,830
Jedediah and Grant in the
Journal of Discourses that's

3185
03:00:35,830 --> 03:00:42,190
kind of commenting on the the
family order that was going on

3186
03:00:42,510 --> 03:00:44,910
on the trek West.
And then they kind of, you know,

3187
03:00:44,910 --> 03:00:49,430
reverted back to gentile order
wards and stakes in Utah.

3188
03:00:49,980 --> 03:00:52,700
And he kind of said that it was
actually a good thing that they

3189
03:00:52,700 --> 03:00:57,100
stayed united.
And you know, I, I, I, I do, I

3190
03:00:57,100 --> 03:00:59,660
do see significance the way he
said, he said if God's priest is

3191
03:00:59,660 --> 03:01:02,660
on the earth and you let our
control thereby and listen to

3192
03:01:02,660 --> 03:01:04,980
its counsel, you will be united
as one people.

3193
03:01:05,220 --> 03:01:08,060
I know the time was that many of
this people believe that the man

3194
03:01:08,060 --> 03:01:10,820
was adopted here and there.
One man would hold this way and

3195
03:01:10,820 --> 03:01:13,100
another that.
But the fact is in this, in the

3196
03:01:13,100 --> 03:01:15,700
Kingdom and Church of the Lord,
they are all in one pile.

3197
03:01:16,090 --> 03:01:18,290
I do not care how many of you
have been adopted here there,

3198
03:01:18,290 --> 03:01:21,170
That is the doctrine to me.
My prayer is that the Saints may

3199
03:01:21,170 --> 03:01:23,330
understand that they are safe as
long as they listen to the

3200
03:01:23,330 --> 03:01:26,290
priests at authorized of heaven,
and are united in one and not

3201
03:01:26,290 --> 03:01:29,610
divided into clans, but become
one great clan under one head.

3202
03:01:30,250 --> 03:01:33,660
Let all the clanism of the World
Rally against us, and we are as

3203
03:01:33,660 --> 03:01:37,340
firm as the Rock of Ages that
supports the throne of Jehovah.

3204
03:01:37,540 --> 03:01:40,700
And obviously some people can
misuse different aspects of

3205
03:01:40,700 --> 03:01:42,460
that, you know, being controlled
by the priesthood.

3206
03:01:42,540 --> 03:01:44,260
I think all of that is in a
context.

3207
03:01:44,260 --> 03:01:46,980
But what he was really
emphasizing and what Brigham

3208
03:01:46,980 --> 03:01:50,100
Young really emphasized was the
need for the Saints to be

3209
03:01:50,100 --> 03:01:52,340
united, to accomplish the work
of the Lord.

3210
03:01:52,340 --> 03:01:55,300
And that does need to be, you
know, I don't think union for

3211
03:01:55,300 --> 03:01:58,420
union's sake, isn't it?
You know, if if if there are

3212
03:01:58,420 --> 03:02:02,020
false principles involved, you
know that's not, that's not

3213
03:02:02,020 --> 03:02:03,820
good.
It needs to be on correct

3214
03:02:03,820 --> 03:02:07,860
principles, on a solid
foundation of morality and

3215
03:02:07,860 --> 03:02:11,780
truth.
And you know, I hope to see that

3216
03:02:12,380 --> 03:02:14,980
till the baronism come forward
in that way, because I do think

3217
03:02:14,980 --> 03:02:19,180
it has a ton of promise and I
hope to see that promise

3218
03:02:19,180 --> 03:02:22,580
eventually come to fruition.
But do you think it does?

3219
03:02:24,700 --> 03:02:26,020
Oh, I hope.
It will.

3220
03:02:26,140 --> 03:02:28,420
I mean, you can't.
None of us can really read the

3221
03:02:28,420 --> 03:02:32,070
future.
I think that you know, I, you

3222
03:02:32,070 --> 03:02:34,550
know, I hope we can learn from
our past mistakes.

3223
03:02:34,550 --> 03:02:37,670
I think part of the problem is a
lot of people will look at the

3224
03:02:37,790 --> 03:02:41,630
past and they want to cover up
the mistakes and not really talk

3225
03:02:41,630 --> 03:02:43,950
about them, you know, and I
think that if you do that, you

3226
03:02:43,950 --> 03:02:46,390
know there I I see the mindset
of it.

3227
03:02:46,390 --> 03:02:48,550
You know, you don't want to
focus too much on the negative.

3228
03:02:48,870 --> 03:02:52,470
You want to be more positive and
constructive than looking for

3229
03:02:52,750 --> 03:02:55,830
things to be critical and and
negative about.

3230
03:02:56,190 --> 03:03:01,880
But I I do think that you need
to understand the problems in

3231
03:03:01,880 --> 03:03:05,720
the history to, you know, to to
be able to recognize those

3232
03:03:05,720 --> 03:03:09,120
problems and to correct course
and to do better, if that makes

3233
03:03:09,120 --> 03:03:12,400
sense.
So I do hope to see Lebarronism

3234
03:03:12,400 --> 03:03:16,120
come to full fruition based off
of the foundational teachings

3235
03:03:16,120 --> 03:03:21,080
that I think are legitimate.
And I think that are, you know,

3236
03:03:21,200 --> 03:03:25,120
perpetuating what Joseph Smith
and Brigham Young envisioned the

3237
03:03:25,120 --> 03:03:27,960
Saints to eventually be
adopting.

3238
03:03:27,960 --> 03:03:31,870
So fantastic dude.
As always, that.

3239
03:03:31,870 --> 03:03:35,470
Was awesome.
Let's do it again on another

3240
03:03:35,470 --> 03:03:38,910
subject sometime.
Dude, thanks for having me.

3241
03:03:38,950 --> 03:03:41,750
You know I.
Appreciate you taking the time

3242
03:03:41,750 --> 03:03:45,910
to, you know, out of your your
vacation to do this second

3243
03:03:45,910 --> 03:03:48,350
conversation.
So dude, that's what I do.

3244
03:03:49,070 --> 03:03:51,190
So awesome.
You're the man, Sir.

3245
03:03:51,190 --> 03:03:55,470
We'll talk to you at you later.
Bye, bye everybody.

3246
03:04:17,700 --> 03:04:20,300
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.