Episode #86: Exploring Branches Of Fundamentalism Series: The LeBarons & The Church Of The First Born W/Jacob Vidrine Part 1

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Today on the podcast we continue
our series on getting to know

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all the branches of Mormon
fundamentalism.

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I have Jacob Vidrine on this
episode to talk about the

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Lebarons.
Now this is going to be a

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two-part episode.
On this part one we talked about

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some crucial church history in
the Navu period that goes in

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depth on the Council of 50 and
it's significant to the Lebarons

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claims of authority.
Next we cover Benjamin F Johnson

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and how his priesthood line got
passed down to the Lebarons and

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finish up by talking about
Almadair Lebaron.

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Stick around for a fascinating
discussion about Mormon doctrine

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and history on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade Podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse to become and
raise men and women of virtue

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and characters.
A Herculean task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com, go to the

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bottom of the page, search out
the blog post, and order your

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copy.
Today I can bear personal

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testimony from personal
experience that this is an

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invaluable tool to help you
raise men and women of virtue

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and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
Jacob, you're back again, man.

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I think this is #4, right?
Technically 5:00 we we did two

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on Adam, God, we did the
interview with William and the

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discussion with William, and
then we we did one on plural

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marriage.
So this is #5, so that's right

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number.
Five.

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That's right.
I forgive me.

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This is episode now number 86.
And so I they're starting to run

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together on me.
Starting to get about as old as

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you are?
Yes, they are.

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They're holy cow between you and
Michael Ness, man, I'm getting

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the glambasted on the age thing.
Wow.

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You wait.
You wait.

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Your time's coming.
Your kids are going to start

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getting in zingers.
And you'll you'll be like, oh,

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that hurt.
But dude, the reason as we as we

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talked about on the phone, the
the reason I had you on is I'm

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trying to do kind of a series on
different branches of

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fundamentalism.
And one of those branches, it

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absolutely has to be covered at
Le Barons.

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Now obviously you coming on
makes sense for two reasons.

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One, you're a Le Baron, and then
two, you are really good at

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digging up sources and looking
at history in a very impartial

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way.
And I find that to be super

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helpful in these sorts of
discussions.

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So let's talk about your
experience a little bit, right?

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What?
What doctrines you found there

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that attracted you to that?
So what got me into

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fundamentalism first of all is
we we kind of briefly covered in

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our first interview was it was
all started off really with the

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Adam God doctrine and I just.
You know, gained A testimony

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that and I loved that doctrine
and how it expounded our

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relationship to God and brought
God closer to us.

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And the other early doctrine
that I stumbled upon that that

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really stood out to me as as
being something important and

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significant is the principle of
rebaptism.

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And as soon as I learned about
that through my, you know,

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digging me online, I just was
like, whoa, that is.

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That's just makes so much sense
because, you know, it's.

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It it, baptism is, you know,
such a vital part of the gospel.

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But most of us go through it
when we're eight and, you know,

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we normally don't experience the
deadness to our former life and

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our, you know, real seeking God
at that age, you know it.

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Normally we have to go through a
period of maturation and

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spiritual maturity before we
really do start to have a strong

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relationship with God.
I mean, I'm not saying that.

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Nobody at age 8 is having those
experiences.

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But I'm just saying that I don't
think most people you know, when

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they're still, you know, even
there's still a child, are going

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to be having all those blessings
that should flow from baptism.

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And so it makes sense that
baptism would be entered

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multiple times throughout your
life, as was taught in early

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Mormonism.
Yeah, Yeah.

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So that those were the things
initially drew you to

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fundamentalism?
Yeah.

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So.
So those were the first

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principles I was liking and I
was still mainstream member of

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the church.
And you know, I was, I wasn't

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really looking for authority or
groups at that point.

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I was just looking to learn.
I just wanted to learn

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everything I could about my
religious tradition, by my faith

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that I've been raised in and
what was been lost over time and

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as I'm as I'm starting to.
Do some digging online into

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these principles.
I've stumbled upon a discussion

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forum, and this is about, you
know, September of 2014.

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That was a discussion forum on
the principles of the gospel,

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and it was filled with people of
all different stripes.

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It was filled with academic,
mainstream, Latter Day Saints.

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It was filled with church
apologists.

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That was also, but it was
mainly.

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Filled with fundamentalists, it
was people who were a part of a

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wide variety of different
fundamentalist backgrounds.

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There was some people, all sorts
of different groups.

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There were some people from
Centennial Park in there.

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There was some people who were
in the a UB in there, Peterson

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group members, people who were
Ross Lebaronites who've come

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from the the Lebaron tradition
as well as independence.

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There was this almost, you know,
it was just a wide.

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Variety of different views and
positions on on doctrine, on

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priesthood and I it literally
popped up just at the right time

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and when I was, you know,
digging into the fullness of

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gospel.
And what's funny is the the

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principal topic of this
discussion forum was the 1890

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manifesto.
And you know the context and the

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circumstances surrounding the
1890 Manifesto.

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And that, you know, is obviously
one of the other big issues that

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gets people into fundamentals
and is learning about the

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history surrounding the
Manifesto and learning that

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plural marriage was still
perpetuated long after the

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Manifesto and that there was a
very messy history of church

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leaders slowly giving up plural
marriage.

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It wasn't an abrupt thing.
And so.

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And then I was very grateful to
be able to read the discussions

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in this forum and then start to
study materials that were being

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shared in this forum.
And also to, you know, get to

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interact with people of all
these different groups as I was

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doing this.
You know, there's some

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principles that just really
stood out to me as being

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important.
And you know, and some of the

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material that was shared on the
form that I just that just rung

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so true that I didn't care what
source it was.

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I was still active in the
mainstream LDS Church.

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I But when truth, you know,
truth is truth and you know

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regardless of the source and
there was materials being shared

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that just rung true to me.
One of the early papers that I

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read that really rung true to me
was a paper on the Navu doctrine

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in light of Book of Mormon
prophecy.

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Which was basically expounding
how you know, the restoration is

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almost A2 tiered restoration.
Joseph Smith initially restores

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the Church of Christ to the
earth with its ordinances and

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its offices and you know,
priesthood organization and he

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gets that all complete.
You know, you know, basically by

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the year 1836 when the Kirtland
temple is completed.

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And then in the Kirtland temple
he receives higher authority

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from Moses, Elias, and Elijah
and.

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He begins to institute new
principals and new hire

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priesthood organizations near
the end of his life using this

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authority that you received in
the Kirtland Temple.

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So some people see like the Navu
which is the last period of

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Joseph Smith's life.
The Navu period is being very

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contradictory to the the earlier
parts of the Restoration, but as

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this paper really demonstrated,
it showed that actually the Book

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of Mormon prophesized that.
If the Saints are faithful to

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the first principles or the
lesser things contained in the

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Book of Mormon, then would the
greater things later be manifest

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to them?
And And Jesus in the Book of

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Mormon quotes the prophecy of
Malachi to the knee fights and

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then it says that he expounded
the prophecy to them but then

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it.
But then that's when Mormon

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goes.
I can't really tell you

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everything that Jesus was
teaching the people at that

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time.
You know that I'm only supposed

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to write the lesser things.
And then another thing in the

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Book of Mormon that really stood
out as significant is the Book

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of Mormon over and over again
talks about how there is going

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to be a work of the Father that
would come forth after the

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Church is built upon, built up
to to Christ and God the Father.

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And so then this work of the
father is described as restoring

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the covenants with.
His the the House of Israel and

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specifically talks about the
covenants which Abraham, Isaac,

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and Jacob received and those
covenants when you go back to

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Genesis, these are the same
covenants and promises that are

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promised in the through temple
participation and the ceiling

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blessings.
And so it's very powerful when

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you realize that the earliest
revelations that Joseph Smith

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received were alluding to and
establishing that there would be

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these newer.
Doctrines introduced near the,

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you know, later on in the
church.

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And so I that was just a strong
faith promoter, promoter to me.

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And then another paper that just
really stood out to me was

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called So you Want Celestial
Glory.

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And both these papers were
written by a historian and

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theologian called Fred Collier.
And so you want celestial glory

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kind of outlines.
It it goes through the degrees

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of glory and it kind of expounds
an understanding of the degrees

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of glory.
And it lays out that you know

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the when we go through either
through the Atonement by

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accepting Jesus Christ and and
repenting of our sins.

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We are made clean that way or as
it's revealed in section I

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believe 19 of the Doctrine
Covenants.

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We have to, if we don't accept
Christ and His atonement that we

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are going to have to pay the
price for our own sins in the

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spirit world and we will have to
make our own restitution for,

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you know, our mistakes and and
our sins in this life.

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But then everyone, when they so
every.

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If you pay for your sins in the
spirit world, that means that

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you're going to be clean after
that, right?

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If you're if you're paying the
price for them.

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Then you know you are clean
then.

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So what's fundamentally the
difference between a celestial

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person, a terrestrial person,
and a telestial person?

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And Fred really expounded in
this paper that you know the the

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the real difference between
those the three kinds of people

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is what motivates them.
And the a telestial person

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really has to be motivated by
fear of punishment.

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To do the right thing.
They need a king.

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To you know that they need a
policeman and a king to keep

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them in line.
Terrestrial person is the

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honorable and just in the world
is what DNC76 says about them

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and well, an honor, So what?
So you know, what's the

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difference between someone who's
honorable and just versus a

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celestial person which says as
valiant as in the testimony of

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Jesus, Well somebody who's
honorable and just isn't

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necessarily self sacrificing and
you know.

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Very charitable in the way they
interact with others.

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They're, you know, the honorable
just are those who are fair and

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square with other people.
But they are fundamentally

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working for a wage.
You know, they they, you know,

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they they'll keep their, you
know, they're honorable, they'll

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keep their end of the agreement,
but they're they're working for

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00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:27,850
a reward.
They want something out of doing

228
00:13:27,850 --> 00:13:31,770
the right thing.
In contrast, those who are truly

229
00:13:31,770 --> 00:13:35,490
celestial people are those who
really lose themselves in the

230
00:13:35,490 --> 00:13:37,090
service of others.
They aren't.

231
00:13:37,530 --> 00:13:39,930
Looking for the they aren't
doing it for the reward or the

232
00:13:39,930 --> 00:13:43,050
prize.
They fundamentally because of

233
00:13:43,050 --> 00:13:45,410
who they are.
They are striving to uplift

234
00:13:45,410 --> 00:13:47,850
others and that's fundamentally
what God is.

235
00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:50,530
You know, he says his work and
his glory is to bring to best

236
00:13:50,530 --> 00:13:52,450
the immortality and eternal life
of man.

237
00:13:52,770 --> 00:13:57,210
So and God, you know, he's got
everything that he could

238
00:13:57,210 --> 00:14:01,410
possibly want right.
He has the all the blessings and

239
00:14:01,410 --> 00:14:04,810
glories of of the celestial
Kingdom, and so.

240
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,520
What does somebody who has
everything do?

241
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:13,040
The the thing that's significant
to God is to try to uplift

242
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,000
others and bring them up to his
level where He is.

243
00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,400
And so we learn to emulate God
when we are striving to give

244
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,720
ourselves and lose ourselves in
the service of others and trying

245
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,680
to, you know, emulate what Jesus
Christ said.

246
00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,160
Where Jesus, I think that you
know.

247
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,880
The New Testament talks about
how Christ loved us first.

248
00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,910
You know that he.
He, He sacrificed his life for

249
00:14:34,910 --> 00:14:39,550
us even, you know, when we were
wicked and in our sins, so that

250
00:14:39,550 --> 00:14:43,030
we can have the opportunity to
repent, to have the atonement

251
00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:47,750
and and to, you know, ultimately
have a celestial resurrection if

252
00:14:47,750 --> 00:14:50,430
we live faithful to his
precepts.

253
00:14:50,830 --> 00:14:54,550
So, you know, this this just
rings so true to me, this, this

254
00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:58,270
concept of the importance of
selfless love.

255
00:14:59,030 --> 00:15:01,350
And you know that that's
ultimately what.

256
00:15:01,780 --> 00:15:04,740
Is the core thing that makes a
person a celestial person.

257
00:15:04,740 --> 00:15:07,860
It's not having your authority
done, but you know, it's not

258
00:15:08,300 --> 00:15:10,380
taking the right religion.
It's not.

259
00:15:10,820 --> 00:15:13,660
I'm picking the, you know,
getting the right ordinances

260
00:15:13,660 --> 00:15:16,380
done.
It's fundamentally about who you

261
00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:19,540
are at the core of, of who of
your person.

262
00:15:19,780 --> 00:15:21,260
I don't know.
Does that ring true to you as

263
00:15:21,260 --> 00:15:23,260
well?
Yeah, absolutely it does.

264
00:15:23,260 --> 00:15:30,020
I I think, look, I I want to do
my best to be that guy who's

265
00:15:30,020 --> 00:15:38,850
just like constantly approaching
things from a purely self

266
00:15:39,050 --> 00:15:42,610
selfless point of view.
However, I have to admit that

267
00:15:42,610 --> 00:15:46,250
that part of my motivation, at
least right now, is to make sure

268
00:15:46,250 --> 00:15:49,210
I'm with my family forever,
right?

269
00:15:49,690 --> 00:15:52,690
It was that question about will
I get to see my dad again that

270
00:15:52,690 --> 00:15:55,650
ultimately started me down this
whole path of Mormonism.

271
00:15:56,370 --> 00:16:01,800
And so I I think, I don't think
there's necessarily anything

272
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,400
wrong or inherent with saying
what are some of the rewards for

273
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:11,240
living like this, right?
I mean, obviously if, if, if

274
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,480
this was just an exercise in
learning to become selfless,

275
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,760
there's a lot of ways of doing
that, but there there has to be

276
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,960
some sort of reward there,
right?

277
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,760
Well, obviously God is just and
it wouldn't be just to, you

278
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,380
know.
To to not reward the faithful,

279
00:16:27,380 --> 00:16:30,300
right we you know that's this is
something that comes up in in

280
00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:33,100
Job where he's going through all
these sacrifices and then God at

281
00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:36,420
the end, you know gives him
double for every you know he

282
00:16:36,420 --> 00:16:39,020
proved himself faithful, you
know in spite of all the

283
00:16:39,020 --> 00:16:42,660
hardships you know in spite of
you know even though he seems

284
00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:46,340
like he's doing the right thing.
Bad things are happening to him

285
00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:50,180
in every possible way and he's
in afflicted in every possible

286
00:16:50,180 --> 00:16:51,700
way.
But he still stays true and

287
00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:54,260
faithful because he knows that
God is just and that God.

288
00:16:54,640 --> 00:17:00,080
Will work things out in the end.
So yeah, you know and I think I

289
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,040
think part of it is you know
there is a struggle like all of

290
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,720
us I I don't think anyone
ultimately falls strictly in one

291
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,440
category at least you know I
think that there's variations

292
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,319
based on the circumstances and
what you're you're you're doing,

293
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:18,359
but it's ultimately what you're
striving to be like hopefully.

294
00:17:18,810 --> 00:17:22,690
We move beyond the stage in life
where we are doing things

295
00:17:22,690 --> 00:17:25,170
because we're afraid we're going
to go to hell, right.

296
00:17:25,170 --> 00:17:28,010
You know, hopefully we are doing
the right thing.

297
00:17:28,010 --> 00:17:31,050
Not because of fear of
punishment, hope.

298
00:17:31,130 --> 00:17:32,810
You know it.
You know, we're, you know,

299
00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:37,170
there's the, the, you know,
moving up to because God is just

300
00:17:37,170 --> 00:17:40,130
and God will reward the
faithful.

301
00:17:40,130 --> 00:17:43,170
You know that's that's an
improvement in motivation, but

302
00:17:43,170 --> 00:17:46,810
obviously the best motivation.
Is when you're not really

303
00:17:46,810 --> 00:17:51,090
seeking for you know your own
glory but you're actually you

304
00:17:51,090 --> 00:17:54,530
know and and I I you know having
you know you know relationship

305
00:17:54,530 --> 00:17:56,890
with your family that's
obviously something important

306
00:17:56,890 --> 00:18:00,170
and that's you know obviously
you know something that's

307
00:18:00,170 --> 00:18:03,570
natural.
But then we also have to accept

308
00:18:03,570 --> 00:18:06,490
kind of in the gospel where
where Jesus at the same time

309
00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:09,730
kind of says, you know who do
you love more.

310
00:18:09,970 --> 00:18:12,790
You know do you love your your.
Your family more than me and

311
00:18:12,870 --> 00:18:16,270
it's obviously we should
ultimately accept that we love

312
00:18:16,270 --> 00:18:20,350
Christ above all right.
It's kind of the ultimate test

313
00:18:20,350 --> 00:18:22,750
of the gospel and hopefully we
don't have to.

314
00:18:23,150 --> 00:18:27,310
You know, that's obviously the
hardest test and I I feel for

315
00:18:27,310 --> 00:18:31,390
anyone who has to deal with
having to choose between their

316
00:18:31,630 --> 00:18:34,470
religion and and their
relationship with Jesus Christ

317
00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:36,470
and their family.
But you know, there are people

318
00:18:36,470 --> 00:18:39,150
who have to do that and and
Brigham Young said that was a

319
00:18:39,150 --> 00:18:41,790
very common thing.
In the early days of the

320
00:18:41,790 --> 00:18:45,310
Restoration where they, you
know, a lot of people to gather

321
00:18:45,310 --> 00:18:48,590
with the Saints basically had to
say goodbye to their their non

322
00:18:48,590 --> 00:18:52,110
member family who you know,
obviously today accept the

323
00:18:52,110 --> 00:18:56,070
gospel and wouldn't be gathering
to be with the Saints in Utah.

324
00:18:56,070 --> 00:19:00,670
And so, you know, you know,
there's, you know, there's that

325
00:19:00,670 --> 00:19:04,030
hardship that that comes with
it, but there's also the reward.

326
00:19:05,010 --> 00:19:08,410
You know the and I think the
reward isn't just, you know the

327
00:19:08,410 --> 00:19:12,250
blessings but also that peace
that comes through doing the

328
00:19:12,250 --> 00:19:15,370
right thing and through having
that love and service for

329
00:19:15,370 --> 00:19:18,050
others.
Like, you know, like the story

330
00:19:18,050 --> 00:19:21,570
you tell about what your your
what your dad would do, you know

331
00:19:21,570 --> 00:19:25,730
his his his charity that he
would do for complete strangers

332
00:19:25,850 --> 00:19:27,770
during you know the Christmas
season.

333
00:19:28,290 --> 00:19:31,690
And so, you know, I I think
there's a joy in the the giving

334
00:19:31,690 --> 00:19:34,290
of self that we ultimately you
know.

335
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,560
We struggle with, but I think we
ultimately knew need to strive

336
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,680
to, to have that kind of
selflessness.

337
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,680
Well, yeah, after after I said
that, I thought, okay.

338
00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,680
So what is it that I do in my
family that I find so rewarding?

339
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,360
And then I was like, well, wait,
I'm just constantly of service,

340
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:56,840
right.
So in some ways it could kind of

341
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,920
be a, you know, a circular train
of thought, right?

342
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,750
What do I do?
Now that's so important to me,

343
00:20:04,750 --> 00:20:07,270
Well, it's making sure that my
wives are happy and my children

344
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:12,790
are happy and healthy and and so
yeah, I think it can kind of be

345
00:20:13,870 --> 00:20:18,470
circular in that way.
So, so my girls are starting to

346
00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:21,110
get to the age where they can
really appreciate birthdays and

347
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:23,110
and and get really excited for
that.

348
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:26,310
And you know when they were,
when they're when they turn one,

349
00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:29,030
you know that they don't really
even know what's going on.

350
00:20:29,030 --> 00:20:31,320
You know that.
You know, but but once they're

351
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,920
two or three, you know that they
start to get excited, know

352
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,680
what's going on and and get to
feel special and excited for

353
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,120
that.
And you know, as a kid growing

354
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,440
up, I remember being excited
about birthdays.

355
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,320
You know, you know what, You
know, getting to do the birthday

356
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,960
party, getting presents.
But man, as as an adult with

357
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:52,120
children, right?
Getting to throw a birthday

358
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:55,200
party for your for your child
and make them feel special and

359
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,040
get to see them get excited over
what gifts they're going to open

360
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,900
and get that is. 100 times
better to me than having a

361
00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:07,460
birthday party for myself.
One of my girls is birthdays

362
00:21:07,460 --> 00:21:10,260
only three days before mine and
I was super excited for her

363
00:21:10,260 --> 00:21:11,380
birthday.
I was like, yeah, I don't

364
00:21:11,380 --> 00:21:14,700
really, you know, my birthday
doesn't really compare to having

365
00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:17,540
her birthday.
So I had my my oldest son was

366
00:21:17,540 --> 00:21:20,300
born on my birthday.
So I understand that entirely.

367
00:21:21,660 --> 00:21:25,940
So, so let me ask you this
because I want to dive into this

368
00:21:25,940 --> 00:21:28,650
then a little bit.
You mentioned that paper by Fred

369
00:21:28,650 --> 00:21:33,010
Collier who was a very prominent
lebara night and that makes a

370
00:21:33,010 --> 00:21:37,210
real impression on you, right?
Do you reach out to Fred?

371
00:21:37,210 --> 00:21:37,930
I mean, what?
What?

372
00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:41,530
What's your next steps?
So some of the people that were

373
00:21:41,570 --> 00:21:45,850
on the forum were students and
family of Fred Collier.

374
00:21:45,850 --> 00:21:50,330
And sometimes there's a brief
period of time where he got on a

375
00:21:50,330 --> 00:21:54,330
family members account and he
was actively participating in

376
00:21:54,330 --> 00:21:56,850
these discussions, kind of
writing up very.

377
00:21:57,260 --> 00:22:01,620
Lengthy comments kind of almost
you know, like letters when he

378
00:22:01,620 --> 00:22:03,820
would write.
Just going into history and

379
00:22:03,820 --> 00:22:06,180
doctrine, I was, I I was very
appreciative this.

380
00:22:06,180 --> 00:22:09,340
I was still, you know, very much
in the church.

381
00:22:09,340 --> 00:22:11,500
I I was seeing some of the
issue.

382
00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:13,700
You know I was learning more
about early Mormonism and how

383
00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:18,860
much the church you know had has
has fundamentally, you know

384
00:22:18,860 --> 00:22:22,020
forgotten about.
But I I was still very much

385
00:22:22,020 --> 00:22:24,980
convinced I was like I've had
great spiritual experiences in

386
00:22:24,980 --> 00:22:26,700
the church.
I still AM.

387
00:22:27,180 --> 00:22:30,100
Faithful to the church and I
know that the early brethren

388
00:22:30,100 --> 00:22:33,900
said XY&Z could affect the
church's authority and standing

389
00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:37,300
before God.
But I still feel strongly you

390
00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:41,140
know that I, you know I love the
Church and I I I still, you

391
00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:44,900
know, love my association here.
And so I, I I was growing to

392
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:47,260
realize that the church was
starting to get out of order.

393
00:22:47,260 --> 00:22:51,020
But I wasn't, you know, actively
looking for a different

394
00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:54,260
authority line at that point or
a different group or or claim

395
00:22:55,660 --> 00:22:58,030
one thing that.
You know I so I was like the

396
00:22:58,030 --> 00:23:00,630
church is a little bit out of
order was kind of how I started

397
00:23:01,230 --> 00:23:04,350
going started looking at things
when I was in the all started

398
00:23:04,350 --> 00:23:08,430
out by saying the church is just
a little out of order, right.

399
00:23:08,430 --> 00:23:12,550
It just that one plural marriage
thing, and then it snowballs

400
00:23:12,550 --> 00:23:16,110
from there.
So, so the thing that made me

401
00:23:16,110 --> 00:23:19,390
realize that the church is
seriously out of order.

402
00:23:19,390 --> 00:23:22,710
Like like there's been some
serious things lost.

403
00:23:23,230 --> 00:23:26,830
Was, you know, we talked about
the importance of family.

404
00:23:27,230 --> 00:23:30,270
Well, one of the principles that
was introduced as part of the

405
00:23:30,270 --> 00:23:34,710
higher organization of the the
Kingdom of God was the principle

406
00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:40,070
of the Saints becoming an
extended family and actually

407
00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:43,910
becoming an adoptive family.
In fact, that was the principle

408
00:23:44,190 --> 00:23:48,190
known as the law of adoption.
And I was learning about this

409
00:23:48,390 --> 00:23:51,350
principle in these forms because
there were different, you know,

410
00:23:51,350 --> 00:23:53,830
groups that.
Thought and understand this

411
00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:58,030
principle but it was ironically
it was through a mainstream

412
00:23:58,310 --> 00:24:02,150
latter day St. friend that I
came to realize that the church

413
00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:05,430
dropping the law of adoption was
like a serious problem.

414
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:09,510
So the the The funny thing is I
had I grown up with these.

415
00:24:09,550 --> 00:24:13,070
Well, from my cursory study of
the law of adoption, I thought

416
00:24:13,310 --> 00:24:16,390
it was just a temporary thing
introduced in the early days of

417
00:24:16,390 --> 00:24:19,950
the church because so many of
the Saints were without family

418
00:24:19,950 --> 00:24:24,410
because of either death or.
You know, being recent converts

419
00:24:24,450 --> 00:24:28,650
and so this is like a temporary
measure to get the Saints to,

420
00:24:28,690 --> 00:24:31,650
you know, be more united and to
have a family when they didn't

421
00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:35,290
have a family.
And so you know this was kind of

422
00:24:35,290 --> 00:24:38,330
during the early period of the
church, but then the church grew

423
00:24:38,330 --> 00:24:41,050
and there were multi generations
in the church.

424
00:24:41,050 --> 00:24:43,530
And so therefore, you know, with
your whole family's in the

425
00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:45,930
church, you don't really need to
be adopted anymore.

426
00:24:45,930 --> 00:24:49,010
You know, you don't really need
an adoptive families kind of.

427
00:24:49,300 --> 00:24:51,660
How I initially understood the
law of adoption.

428
00:24:51,660 --> 00:24:56,140
But what this, this friend
pointed out was because I said

429
00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:58,420
it was just a temporary thing.
He goes, Oh no, it wasn't.

430
00:24:58,420 --> 00:25:01,180
Look at, you know, you know,
Wilfred Woodruff wasn't doing

431
00:25:01,180 --> 00:25:03,580
away with it because it was just
a temporary thing.

432
00:25:03,820 --> 00:25:09,620
He pointed out the April 1894
general Conference where church

433
00:25:09,620 --> 00:25:11,460
leaders decided to do away with
the law of adoption.

434
00:25:11,810 --> 00:25:14,530
Wilfred Woodruff basically said
we don't really understand it

435
00:25:14,530 --> 00:25:16,170
and we still don't understand
it.

436
00:25:16,410 --> 00:25:20,970
And so we should just leave it
be as it is and just, you know,

437
00:25:21,010 --> 00:25:23,970
do this other thing instead,
which is seal your family line

438
00:25:23,970 --> 00:25:27,130
back as far as you can, get the
genealogical records.

439
00:25:27,410 --> 00:25:30,090
And then he said, seal the last
one to Joseph Smith as the head

440
00:25:30,090 --> 00:25:33,740
of the dispensation.
In, you know, and but he

441
00:25:33,820 --> 00:25:35,380
basically said we didn't
understand it.

442
00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:37,980
We still don't understand it.
And so unless someone gets a

443
00:25:37,980 --> 00:25:41,380
direct revelation from God
telling them to do this

444
00:25:41,580 --> 00:25:43,940
principle, then it shouldn't be
done anymore.

445
00:25:44,340 --> 00:25:48,340
And I was like, ooh, that And it
really hit home realizing that

446
00:25:48,540 --> 00:25:51,380
this is the way temple
ordinances were done for the

447
00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:57,020
first, you know, 50 years of the
church from, you know, 1845 in

448
00:25:57,020 --> 00:25:59,580
the Nabu temple all the way up
to 1894.

449
00:25:59,860 --> 00:26:01,460
You know, the Saints were
taught.

450
00:26:01,750 --> 00:26:04,310
You know the the when I actually
was learning what the full

451
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:07,750
doctrine was, you know, after
this friend pointed out that I

452
00:26:07,750 --> 00:26:09,750
really didn't have a full
understanding of it.

453
00:26:11,070 --> 00:26:14,310
You know that really if you know
your family don't accept the

454
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:18,070
fullness of the gospel, that you
should find a father and mother

455
00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:20,950
in the fullness of the gospel to
teach you those higher

456
00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:23,670
principles that how to become
like God.

457
00:26:24,150 --> 00:26:27,550
And, you know, so like a lot of
the Saints considered, like

458
00:26:27,550 --> 00:26:30,350
Joseph Smith to be a father to
them, like an adoptive father

459
00:26:30,350 --> 00:26:33,190
like Lyman White.
Reference Joseph Smith was being

460
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:36,910
like a father to him.
You know George Cuchanan's

461
00:26:36,910 --> 00:26:40,550
parents sadly didn't accept the
gospel and so George Cuchanan,

462
00:26:40,550 --> 00:26:44,750
his uncle John Taylor he was an
apostle in the church and he

463
00:26:44,750 --> 00:26:48,830
chose to make adoption covenants
with John Taylor in the Nabu

464
00:26:48,830 --> 00:26:52,870
temple And so this was a big
thing in early Mormonism.

465
00:26:52,870 --> 00:26:56,030
It was about kind of it was
about the establishing the

466
00:26:56,030 --> 00:27:01,240
celestial family here on Earth.
You know, trying to get, you

467
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,080
know, get the Saints into a
celestial family order where,

468
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,440
you know, we don't think that
everyone is going to inherit the

469
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,200
celestial Kingdom, right?
We we think that you know this

470
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,720
coin to Jesus, it's narrow.
You know, it's a narrow path to

471
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,280
get there.
It it, well, it's a broad gate

472
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,720
to, you know, go to the deaths
and destruction.

473
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:27,390
So why would we expect to that
everyone is going to go to the

474
00:27:27,390 --> 00:27:30,830
social Kingdom, but it doesn't
make sense to you know that your

475
00:27:30,910 --> 00:27:33,670
people you're close to in the
fullness of the gospel are

476
00:27:33,670 --> 00:27:35,310
probably going to go to the
social Kingdom.

477
00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:39,310
And so this was the context in
which you know the ceiling

478
00:27:39,310 --> 00:27:43,110
principles were introduced.
And so an example of this is

479
00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:47,670
like so Benjamin F Johnson's
mother and father kind of

480
00:27:47,670 --> 00:27:52,520
separated because he.
He had, you know, he had some

481
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:53,920
issues with the church.
He did.

482
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,080
Real, real quick.
Before you go there, there's

483
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,480
going to be some folks who don't
know who Benjamin F Johnson is

484
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,880
and how he ties into the Lebaron
line.

485
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,160
Can you just explain about who
he is real quick?

486
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,080
So he was an early Latter day
St. and I would say he was one

487
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,440
of the closest individuals to
Joseph Smith during the last

488
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,960
years of his life in NABU.
Besides, say, Joseph scribes, I

489
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,830
think William Clayton.
And Willard Richards were

490
00:28:18,830 --> 00:28:22,150
probably the closest to Joseph
because they were following him

491
00:28:22,150 --> 00:28:26,550
around constantly in recording
what he was doing and teaching.

492
00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:30,110
But Ben JF Johnson was like a
little brother to Joseph Smith.

493
00:28:30,430 --> 00:28:33,830
And so I'm not really ready to
go into Ben JF Johnson just now,

494
00:28:34,350 --> 00:28:37,710
but basically his mother and
father had separated over her

495
00:28:37,710 --> 00:28:39,950
convert and the family
converting to the church.

496
00:28:40,270 --> 00:28:43,070
Everyone converted except him.
And so Joseph Smith and Navu

497
00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:47,070
encouraged her to be sealed to
Uncle John Smith.

498
00:28:47,910 --> 00:28:51,510
Joseph Smith's uncle, who later
became the presiding patriarch

499
00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:54,870
of the Church as a plural wife,
you know, so that the family

500
00:28:54,870 --> 00:28:58,550
could be, you know, so that she
could have an eternal marriage

501
00:28:58,590 --> 00:29:02,470
and that the family could be
kind of tied in to the celestial

502
00:29:02,470 --> 00:29:07,510
family idea.
And so, you know, I realize this

503
00:29:07,510 --> 00:29:10,030
is a very important principle.
And then the the understanding

504
00:29:10,030 --> 00:29:13,190
of work for the dead was
actually kind of different than

505
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:17,140
what the Church teaches today.
What Brigham Young taught and

506
00:29:17,140 --> 00:29:21,300
what was practice in LDS temples
up until 1894 is that you don't

507
00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:25,780
steal yourself to the to your
dead ancestors who you don't

508
00:29:25,780 --> 00:29:28,780
know if they would accept the
gospel or not but you actually

509
00:29:28,780 --> 00:29:33,820
adopt them and seal them to
yourself and and so because then

510
00:29:33,820 --> 00:29:36,780
that you are going to be the one
who's going to introduce them to

511
00:29:36,780 --> 00:29:40,180
the fullness of the gospel and
and you know teach them, you

512
00:29:40,180 --> 00:29:42,060
know those principles and they
still have.

513
00:29:42,580 --> 00:29:45,180
You first have to learn whether
or not they accept those

514
00:29:45,180 --> 00:29:47,500
principles, and then they also,
you know, whether it's, you

515
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:49,780
know, you know, in the in the
resurrection.

516
00:29:49,780 --> 00:29:52,660
They're going to have to live
those principles in the flesh

517
00:29:52,660 --> 00:29:56,540
and see if they actually really
want to be striving to be part

518
00:29:56,540 --> 00:30:01,020
of the Celestial family.
So learning that this was

519
00:30:01,020 --> 00:30:05,660
fundamentally reversed in 1894
made me realize that LDS temple

520
00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:08,260
work after that date has to be,
you know.

521
00:30:08,660 --> 00:30:12,380
Precarious and and questionable
and in many senses since,

522
00:30:12,620 --> 00:30:15,660
because either it was right when
Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and

523
00:30:15,660 --> 00:30:18,420
John Taylor were doing it, or it
was wrong.

524
00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:22,820
And I don't think that Rosa
Smith, Brigham Wilford Woodruff

525
00:30:22,820 --> 00:30:25,860
would say that if anyone
understood the temple

526
00:30:25,860 --> 00:30:28,340
ordinances, it was Brigham
Young, he said.

527
00:30:28,340 --> 00:30:30,740
Brigham Young was there with
Joseph from the beginning to the

528
00:30:30,740 --> 00:30:34,340
end of Joseph administering
temple ordinances, and so we

529
00:30:34,340 --> 00:30:37,020
should trust his doctrines, they
said regarding.

530
00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:39,500
Wilfred Rudef also said
regarding ceilings and

531
00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:42,660
adoptions, he says, I don't know
understand it as much as I would

532
00:30:42,660 --> 00:30:46,900
like to, but they have to be
true principles or our profits

533
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:50,500
have been badly deceived.
And so I'm like, wow, that's,

534
00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:53,540
you know, pretty significant,
you know, and I mean that's a

535
00:30:53,540 --> 00:30:55,180
true observation.
You know who?

536
00:30:55,340 --> 00:30:59,860
Regardless of whoever said that,
you know, either the prophets

537
00:30:59,860 --> 00:31:01,860
taught true principles or they
didn't.

538
00:31:04,750 --> 00:31:08,030
And so this, you know, started
me to realize, you know, the

539
00:31:08,030 --> 00:31:09,670
church is significantly out of
order.

540
00:31:09,670 --> 00:31:13,030
But I still love the church and
I was still planning on on

541
00:31:13,150 --> 00:31:16,510
preparing to serve a mission at
that time until, you know, I had

542
00:31:16,510 --> 00:31:20,350
a spiritual experience that
basically led me to understand

543
00:31:20,350 --> 00:31:25,350
that the Church didn't have,
didn't have priesthood authority

544
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:28,390
anymore.
And I, I, I, I had a series of

545
00:31:28,390 --> 00:31:31,150
experiences that kind of
prepared me for that, but kind

546
00:31:31,150 --> 00:31:33,510
of confirmed, you know?
God is good.

547
00:31:33,510 --> 00:31:37,470
God can give the gifts of the
spirit and can give revelation

548
00:31:37,470 --> 00:31:41,310
and can give blessings of
healings you know any to to

549
00:31:41,310 --> 00:31:43,270
people even without any
priesthood.

550
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:47,150
You know that's those are the
fruits of faith.

551
00:31:47,270 --> 00:31:50,830
You know, Jesus in the New
Testament and the apostles kind

552
00:31:50,830 --> 00:31:54,350
of telling there's people who
are doing these great works in

553
00:31:54,350 --> 00:31:57,310
your name who are casting out
devils and and you know, doing

554
00:31:57,310 --> 00:32:00,350
all these other things in your
name, but they aren't with us.

555
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,560
So shouldn't we go and tell them
to stop?

556
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,400
And Jesus actually said no,
Those who aren't against us are

557
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,800
with us, is what Jesus said.
And you know Joseph Smith and

558
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,680
Brigham Young expounded on that
and teaching that the ability to

559
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,520
heal the sick and have other
experiences of the spirit aren't

560
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,400
aren't necessarily priested.
But you can have those from.

561
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,600
Having the Spirit and and living
a godly life and having those

562
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,400
fruits that stem from having the
the spirit in your life and

563
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:37,640
trying to do the right thing.
And so I I I started to you

564
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,080
know, I, I you know, that led me
to realize that if the church

565
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,040
doesn't have authority I should
probably look elsewhere.

566
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,320
And I kind of already had a
decent idea where to look.

567
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,400
I I enjoyed all the, you know,
fundamentalists in general.

568
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,640
Are are really knowledgeable
people.

569
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,520
I think everyone who is
interacting in those group that

570
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,280
those forums regardless of what
group they were a part of, they

571
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:06,800
all had very most of them had
very interesting insights and

572
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,840
you know and they they really
knew their history and the the

573
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,720
apologists and mainstream LDS
kind of you know took the

574
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,440
backseat and discussions.
Most of the time it was the the

575
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,520
fundamentalists who who were
really.

576
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,520
No Knowledgeable.
And I was grateful for this

577
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,840
because one thing I I've always
felt in life is that the best

578
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,480
one of the best ways to learn is
to find somebody who who already

579
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,760
is knowledgeable in an area and
to study under them and to learn

580
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:39,240
from them.
You know, instead of trying to

581
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,640
reinvent the wheel, you know,
learning from those who've

582
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:46,360
already put in a lot of time, a
lot of effort into.

583
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,560
Understanding Mormon history and
and Mormon doctrine.

584
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,400
And the people that I really
felt stood out in these

585
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,520
discussions were people who were
of the brass Lebaron line, who

586
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:03,520
were vast knowledges and very
astute historians.

587
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,000
You know, and this is not one or
two people.

588
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,840
It was a lot there.
There was quite a number of

589
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,760
people who were sharing research
files they compiled and noting,

590
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,270
you know, you know.
Showing their work, tons of

591
00:34:16,270 --> 00:34:18,389
sources.
And I was deeply impressed with

592
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:22,389
that.
And so that's kind of what stood

593
00:34:22,389 --> 00:34:25,350
out to me.
And what's kind of ironic about

594
00:34:25,350 --> 00:34:29,230
that is without that forum and
the contents that were shared in

595
00:34:29,230 --> 00:34:33,190
it like this deep theology and
deep history, if I was just

596
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:36,830
going off of what is easily
available on a Google search,

597
00:34:36,830 --> 00:34:40,100
what is available online?
The stuff about Ross and the

598
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:42,500
stuff about some of his
followers that would come up in

599
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:45,300
Google searches would have
probably made them be the last

600
00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:48,460
place I would have looked for
for for priesthood.

601
00:34:48,820 --> 00:34:53,260
Because you know some of the
stuff out there is just very

602
00:34:53,260 --> 00:34:57,380
wild And you know I now know in
retrospect that most of it is

603
00:34:57,460 --> 00:34:59,820
vast.
You know is is very untrue.

604
00:34:59,820 --> 00:35:01,780
That's what what's available
online.

605
00:35:03,260 --> 00:35:05,620
But it but it was these
interactions and studies that

606
00:35:05,620 --> 00:35:09,290
made me feel that.
All of these other objections

607
00:35:09,290 --> 00:35:12,850
that came up were kind of
surface level and that even some

608
00:35:12,850 --> 00:35:17,170
members in the discussions would
use strong personal attacks or

609
00:35:17,210 --> 00:35:22,130
or make accusations to you know,
to try to one up the individual

610
00:35:22,130 --> 00:35:24,250
who was really knowledgeable
with the history.

611
00:35:24,850 --> 00:35:29,050
And for me, the doctrine and
historical knowledge was so

612
00:35:29,050 --> 00:35:32,730
compelling that I personally
just had to dismiss personal

613
00:35:32,730 --> 00:35:35,440
attacks.
I mean if you are attempting to

614
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,440
attack a person instead of what
they're saying, I feel like

615
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,760
you're not coming from a
stronger position.

616
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,360
And so why would I accept, you
know a weaker doctoral position

617
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,520
just because you have, you know
what you seem to have some mud

618
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:50,840
you can throw is kind of.
Does that kind of make sense?

619
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,760
I'm I'm like, you know, it does,
it does.

620
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,400
Principles, Principles over
personality.

621
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,990
You were taking the substance
substance of the the the

622
00:36:01,110 --> 00:36:04,390
argument over the the
personality of the individual.

623
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:11,510
Yeah, and you really can't.
You know, this really brings

624
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:13,350
mind a statement, Brigham Young
said.

625
00:36:13,350 --> 00:36:16,470
Because Brigham Young said that
when he joined the the church in

626
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:22,070
the early 1830s that an old
minister just absolutely just

627
00:36:22,070 --> 00:36:25,310
railed against Joseph Smith with
all the different accusations in

628
00:36:25,310 --> 00:36:27,470
the book.
And this is one of my favorite.

629
00:36:27,790 --> 00:36:31,110
Quotes by Brigham Young, and he
tells the story several times

630
00:36:31,110 --> 00:36:33,670
throughout his life, so I think
it's a story he likes to share

631
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:36,790
also, he said.
I recollect the conversation I

632
00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:39,910
had with a priest who was an old
friend of ours before I was

633
00:36:39,910 --> 00:36:41,670
personally acquainted with the
Prophet Joseph.

634
00:36:42,030 --> 00:36:44,670
I clipped every argument.
He advanced until at last he

635
00:36:44,670 --> 00:36:47,750
came out and began to rail
against Joe Smith that he was a

636
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:50,550
mean man, a liar, a money
digger, A gambler, A

637
00:36:50,550 --> 00:36:53,070
whoremaster.
He charged him with everything

638
00:36:53,070 --> 00:36:56,030
bad that he could find language
to utter, I said.

639
00:36:56,450 --> 00:36:59,010
Hold on, Brother Gilmore.
Here is the doctrine.

640
00:36:59,210 --> 00:37:02,530
Here is the Bible, the Book of
Mormon, and the revelations that

641
00:37:02,530 --> 00:37:05,090
come through Joseph Smith the
Prophet.

642
00:37:05,450 --> 00:37:08,410
I've never seen him and do not
know his private character.

643
00:37:08,730 --> 00:37:11,610
The doctrine he teaches is all I
know about the matter.

644
00:37:12,490 --> 00:37:14,730
Bring anything against that if
you can.

645
00:37:15,570 --> 00:37:17,730
That's anything else.
I do not care if he acts like a

646
00:37:17,730 --> 00:37:19,410
devil.
He's brought forth a doctrine

647
00:37:19,410 --> 00:37:21,330
that will save us if he will
abide it.

648
00:37:22,370 --> 00:37:24,010
He said he may get drunk every
night.

649
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:26,550
He may sleep with his neighbor's
wife, run horses and gamble.

650
00:37:26,550 --> 00:37:29,110
I don't care anything about all
those things, for I never

651
00:37:29,110 --> 00:37:32,430
embrace any man in my faith.
But the doctrine he's produced

652
00:37:32,430 --> 00:37:34,630
will save you and me and the
whole world.

653
00:37:34,710 --> 00:37:37,110
And if you can find fault with
that, find it.

654
00:37:37,510 --> 00:37:40,830
And he said I have done and it
kind of silence dismisser.

655
00:37:40,830 --> 00:37:43,830
And obviously this isn't saying
that person's moral character

656
00:37:43,830 --> 00:37:46,230
isn't important.
Brigham Young would say that

657
00:37:46,230 --> 00:37:49,350
Joseph Smith was the best man
who'd ever lived, saved Jesus

658
00:37:49,830 --> 00:37:52,580
and and he.
Lot of Joseph Smith's character.

659
00:37:52,580 --> 00:37:55,700
But the point is you don't
really know a person just based

660
00:37:55,700 --> 00:38:00,820
off of what other people are
saying about them over the rumor

661
00:38:00,820 --> 00:38:04,300
mill and and gossip chain that
can be spread around.

662
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:07,500
And so you really got to be
careful putting a whole lot of

663
00:38:07,500 --> 00:38:10,540
weight on those things rather
than you know, weighing somebody

664
00:38:10,540 --> 00:38:13,580
by their own words and their own
actions as you know them.

665
00:38:13,580 --> 00:38:16,580
You know, as Jesus said, out of
the abundance of the heart, the

666
00:38:16,580 --> 00:38:18,260
mouth, speak it.
So you really should.

667
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:21,880
You know, hear people out for
their own perspective rather

668
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,720
than just dismissing someone
based off of what others tell

669
00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:28,120
you.
If that makes sense.

670
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,280
Yeah, no, I I I think that I'm
always a big proponent of of

671
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,600
going to the individual.
Now having said that, let's

672
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,880
let's be clear that just cuz
someone has good doctrine or

673
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,560
what we perceive to be good
doctrine doesn't make them a

674
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,920
great guy.
I think someone can be

675
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:50,960
disqualified based on their
actions.

676
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,480
Warren Jeffs comes to mind,
right?

677
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,560
I mean look he he could preach
all day long from from Joseph

678
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,600
Smith or Brigham Young or
whatever, but his actions tell

679
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,320
me that the man's a sadistic.
Well.

680
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,680
When you when you look at his
doctrine, highest order, right?

681
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:12,420
And so if he can't abide his own
doctrine, you you, you at least

682
00:39:12,420 --> 00:39:14,020
have to start questioning some
things now.

683
00:39:14,020 --> 00:39:16,540
Now, what you choose to take
with and what you choose to

684
00:39:16,540 --> 00:39:20,540
leave behind, that's that's a
personal decision, hopefully one

685
00:39:20,540 --> 00:39:24,700
based on revelation.
But I I think we do have to take

686
00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:28,620
into account character somewhat.
I I absolutely think character

687
00:39:28,620 --> 00:39:31,620
is important.
And I I think the big thing is

688
00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:35,620
that we should, you know,
obviously avoid, you know,

689
00:39:35,740 --> 00:39:39,490
trusting Stern.
You know, you know rumors that

690
00:39:39,490 --> 00:39:42,210
you aren't sure if there's
anything substantial behind them

691
00:39:42,210 --> 00:39:46,290
or not because lots of rumors.
You know when you read the anti

692
00:39:46,290 --> 00:39:49,730
Mormon literature about Joseph
Smith, if you were trying to say

693
00:39:49,730 --> 00:39:53,650
you were in the 1830s and you're
reading Mormonism unveiled, you

694
00:39:53,650 --> 00:39:56,290
know, are you?
Would it be really wise to take

695
00:39:56,290 --> 00:40:00,490
that over going and carefully
examining, you know, Joseph

696
00:40:00,490 --> 00:40:02,490
Smith's character for for
yourself?

697
00:40:02,530 --> 00:40:06,010
I, you know, I think it's a lot
more important to get it from

698
00:40:06,010 --> 00:40:09,730
the horse's mouth.
And you know and I think that's

699
00:40:09,810 --> 00:40:13,090
and I don't I would push back a
little bit because I really

700
00:40:13,090 --> 00:40:16,850
think that Joseph Smith said
that good doctrine flows from

701
00:40:16,890 --> 00:40:20,330
from good people and that and I
think the inverse is true that

702
00:40:20,330 --> 00:40:24,090
that bad people will tend to
have corrupt doctrines if that

703
00:40:24,130 --> 00:40:27,850
makes sense.
And Warren dress his doctrines

704
00:40:27,850 --> 00:40:31,050
were very corrupt and you know
when you read his revelations

705
00:40:31,290 --> 00:40:35,210
they are bizarre to say the best
of of of it.

706
00:40:35,210 --> 00:40:39,020
You know, he, he taught some
very convoluted doctrines that

707
00:40:39,020 --> 00:40:43,540
have ultimately destroyed what
you know, what was the biggest

708
00:40:43,540 --> 00:40:46,700
fundamentalist group at one
point because he went, you know,

709
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:50,300
because of his bad, bad
doctorates that he's taught, you

710
00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:54,500
know, the, you know, going from
the, the infallibility to

711
00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:58,220
telling his people that they
shouldn't have children anymore,

712
00:40:58,700 --> 00:41:00,500
right.
Just because the Prophet told

713
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:04,650
them to not have children, you
know it's it's just absolutely

714
00:41:04,650 --> 00:41:07,930
fragmented as his, his group and
that that community.

715
00:41:07,930 --> 00:41:11,610
And I think that a lot of
innocent people were hurt

716
00:41:11,690 --> 00:41:14,130
because of a bad doctrine, in my
opinion.

717
00:41:14,570 --> 00:41:21,130
Yeah I think so.
So you know, I I reached out to

718
00:41:21,290 --> 00:41:24,650
I, I reached out to to Fred
eventually and I I got to

719
00:41:25,410 --> 00:41:27,210
interact with him and and stud
with him.

720
00:41:27,210 --> 00:41:30,570
And I, you know eventually I
ended up actually living in his

721
00:41:30,570 --> 00:41:35,510
home for about six months when I
was dealing with kind of I I was

722
00:41:35,670 --> 00:41:38,670
only 20 at the time.
Still I think just about when I

723
00:41:38,670 --> 00:41:42,670
turned 21 and because I I was
having some rocky family

724
00:41:42,670 --> 00:41:46,870
relationships over me becoming a
fundamentalist and my parents

725
00:41:46,870 --> 00:41:51,030
kind of said, you know we we
have issues with your faith

726
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:54,710
position and so we need some
distances kind of the attitude

727
00:41:54,710 --> 00:41:56,790
that that occurred.
But but Fred, Fred was very

728
00:41:56,790 --> 00:42:00,920
gracious to let me, you know,
just to live in his home.

729
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:05,480
And I got to sleep in the the
loft above his office and and I

730
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,760
got access to his wealth of
knowledge on doctrine and in

731
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,200
history.
And you know I would kind of

732
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,280
sleep in the in the loft.
You know stay up very late in

733
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:21,200
the night studying early Mormon
teachings and history and that I

734
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,840
would wake up in the morning to
he'd be working his office.

735
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,800
I'd get to go down and and
discuss whatever historical or

736
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:33,200
or theological you know issues
he's he's he's working on at the

737
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,480
moment.
He was very always busy writing

738
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,200
things.
Always he, he published over 40

739
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:42,760
different pamphlets on doctrine
and and principles that are very

740
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,160
substantiative in my opinion.
He also written, I think at

741
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,680
least about 10 books, you know
thick books on on you know,

742
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:55,040
obviously the most the one most
people know about is unpublished

743
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:59,310
Revelations volume one and
volume to which is just a great

744
00:42:59,310 --> 00:43:02,710
collection of the things that
didn't end up canonized but are

745
00:43:02,710 --> 00:43:05,550
still very significant
revelations nonetheless.

746
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:10,910
And so the big thing that got me
into this was the the love of

747
00:43:10,910 --> 00:43:15,030
Mormon history.
And so I really wanted to learn

748
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:19,550
everything I could about Mormon
history and doctrine as I got

749
00:43:19,550 --> 00:43:23,040
involved with this.
You know, this the the kind of

750
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:28,200
the broader Lebaron movement and
the, you know, Ross Lebaronism

751
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:33,320
is a theological position.
And so in 2016, one thing that

752
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,360
really significant happened that
the church did was they released

753
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,720
the long anticipated Council of
50 Minutes there.

754
00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,800
They were kind of rumors of, you
know, in the months before that

755
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,600
there were going to be some
significant things in the

756
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,970
council in 50 minutes.
And this is what we've been, you

757
00:43:48,970 --> 00:43:51,770
know, historians have been
waiting on for decades for the

758
00:43:51,770 --> 00:43:54,930
church to let us know what was
going on in the Council of 50.

759
00:43:55,290 --> 00:43:59,010
And the Council of 50 is very
significant to Lebaronism

760
00:43:59,010 --> 00:44:02,450
because Bedra F Johnson was a
member of the Council of 50, and

761
00:44:02,450 --> 00:44:04,490
he wrote things about the
Council of 50.

762
00:44:04,970 --> 00:44:08,770
And so it'd be great to learn
what was actually recorded in

763
00:44:08,770 --> 00:44:11,130
the Council of 50 meetings
themselves.

764
00:44:11,530 --> 00:44:17,170
And so in 2016, the church
released the council of 50

765
00:44:17,170 --> 00:44:20,670
minutes.
And, you know, to my surprise,

766
00:44:20,670 --> 00:44:25,310
there weren't a whole lot of
Lebaronites who were very

767
00:44:25,590 --> 00:44:27,870
invested in reading these.
You know, I I thought this would

768
00:44:27,870 --> 00:44:30,790
be, you know, this was a very
significant thing, but there

769
00:44:30,790 --> 00:44:33,630
weren't a whole lot of people
who who were that interested.

770
00:44:33,630 --> 00:44:36,830
But so I kind of took it upon
myself to study the minutes,

771
00:44:36,830 --> 00:44:40,070
because somebody has to find out
what's in the Council of 50

772
00:44:40,070 --> 00:44:44,070
minutes.
What do you think?

773
00:44:44,190 --> 00:44:45,950
What do you think caused the
apathy?

774
00:44:46,810 --> 00:44:49,130
Towards, towards those being
released.

775
00:44:50,090 --> 00:44:53,930
So I think part of it is a lot
of people you know a lot of

776
00:44:53,930 --> 00:44:57,650
these are great historians who
are just you know older guys who

777
00:44:57,650 --> 00:45:01,570
have already kind of done you
know their historical work.

778
00:45:01,570 --> 00:45:05,330
You know they they spent years
and decades researching and they

779
00:45:05,330 --> 00:45:08,170
weren't as invested in it at
that point.

780
00:45:08,170 --> 00:45:10,610
Like they, they've reached their
doctoral conclusions, their

781
00:45:10,610 --> 00:45:13,410
historical conclusions.
And, you know, they're they're

782
00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:17,580
more looking to share what
they've already gathered with

783
00:45:18,340 --> 00:45:22,780
with others rather than, you
know, going into, you know,

784
00:45:22,780 --> 00:45:25,700
getting into what's new.
But me, I like the Joseph Smith

785
00:45:25,700 --> 00:45:28,500
statement where he said it's
always been my promise to dig up

786
00:45:28,500 --> 00:45:31,380
new things, hidden mysteries for
my hearers.

787
00:45:31,780 --> 00:45:34,780
And so I was like, heck yeah,
let's get what's new.

788
00:45:35,340 --> 00:45:38,020
And so I I took a significant
interest.

789
00:45:38,020 --> 00:45:40,860
And not only did I take a
significant interest, but I was

790
00:45:40,860 --> 00:45:44,080
lucky enough to get the minutes
a few weeks before they were

791
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,120
actually officially released for
some reason.

792
00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:48,840
Luck.
You know, I preordered it from

793
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,920
Amazon and Amazon sent it out to
me a couple weeks early.

794
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,440
And so I was probably one of the
first historians outside of, you

795
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,200
know, the church historians who
would work with the minutes to

796
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:04,040
get to look at the council 50
minutes and read through them.

797
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:10,110
And it was it, It really kind of
was a spark for me where it kind

798
00:46:10,110 --> 00:46:13,470
of started me into a love of
Mormon history and and really

799
00:46:13,470 --> 00:46:17,750
getting to understand more about
what Joseph Smith taught, what

800
00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:20,350
Brigham Young taught, what they
did and what they tried to

801
00:46:20,390 --> 00:46:23,870
establish.
But there there, what's what was

802
00:46:23,870 --> 00:46:27,430
interesting to Le Baronism is
there were some issues that the

803
00:46:27,430 --> 00:46:30,710
council of 50 minutes raised.
When you get new sources, you

804
00:46:30,710 --> 00:46:33,590
got to figure out how to, you
know, how do these fit with our

805
00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:38,210
preconceived beliefs and ideas?
And so I was kind of giving a

806
00:46:38,210 --> 00:46:40,970
heads up a few months before the
minutes actually came up.

807
00:46:41,090 --> 00:46:44,930
There seems to be a Joseph Smith
statement that indicates a

808
00:46:44,930 --> 00:46:47,050
council of 50 wasn't a
priesthood body.

809
00:46:47,490 --> 00:46:49,250
I was.
I was like, OK, that's that's

810
00:46:49,250 --> 00:46:50,850
kind of interesting.
I'll have to read that statement

811
00:46:50,850 --> 00:46:54,370
because with Lebarronism, and
this is something that other

812
00:46:54,370 --> 00:46:58,170
historians have kind of gathered
is that it was intended to be

813
00:46:58,170 --> 00:47:01,810
kind of a priesthood body and
some degree that was intended to

814
00:47:01,810 --> 00:47:03,410
wield some degree of Priested
authority.

815
00:47:03,410 --> 00:47:07,050
And so that was an issue that I
wanted to read about when I got

816
00:47:07,050 --> 00:47:10,250
the minutes and then the other
issue that came up and the and

817
00:47:10,250 --> 00:47:15,730
this was kind of said this was
more of a A plus for the Lebaron

818
00:47:15,730 --> 00:47:17,890
side of things is they said
they're actually it.

819
00:47:18,050 --> 00:47:21,610
The last charge isn't recorded
and and the last charge being

820
00:47:21,610 --> 00:47:25,010
the the in Mormon history.
The last charge is where Joseph

821
00:47:25,010 --> 00:47:28,690
Smith gives a speech courtly
before his death reviewing his

822
00:47:28,690 --> 00:47:34,150
life and labors and you know
essentially says and I'm placing

823
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:37,630
the authority on you to lead the
church and Kingdom of God

824
00:47:37,630 --> 00:47:41,230
triumphant to the world.
And in traditional Mormon his

825
00:47:41,230 --> 00:47:44,550
circles we've only we've always
thought it was just to the 12

826
00:47:44,550 --> 00:47:47,790
apostles.
But to the Lebaron tradition

827
00:47:47,790 --> 00:47:50,950
it's always been that actually
it was the 12 apostles and the

828
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:54,710
council of 50 that it wasn't
just 12 guys being called the

829
00:47:54,790 --> 00:47:58,590
carry out Joseph's measures.
But that actually it was entire

830
00:47:58,590 --> 00:48:03,190
body of 40 to 50 men who are
being told to to keep alive what

831
00:48:03,190 --> 00:48:06,670
Joseph had get sacrificed his
life to establish.

832
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:09,150
Real quick then.
But.

833
00:48:09,310 --> 00:48:12,390
But let me push back on that.
How could it be a priesthood

834
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:15,990
council when you have men on
there who aren't even Mormon?

835
00:48:16,470 --> 00:48:18,550
I mean, forget priesthood
quorum.

836
00:48:18,950 --> 00:48:21,590
I mean forget priesthood,
period.

837
00:48:21,590 --> 00:48:26,150
But not Mormon at all.
I'm glad to have you push back

838
00:48:26,150 --> 00:48:29,350
on that.
There were Gentiles initiated

839
00:48:29,350 --> 00:48:33,500
into the council of 50 but you
know non Mormons who were, you

840
00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:36,820
know there are three non Mormons
but they were not seen as the

841
00:48:36,820 --> 00:48:39,340
source of the council's
authority.

842
00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:43,180
The the council's authority was
stemmed from the priesthood and

843
00:48:43,180 --> 00:48:48,900
you can kind of see that in 18.
In 18 it's either 1842 or 1844

844
00:48:48,900 --> 00:48:52,660
revelation that Joseph Smith
received which was written in

845
00:48:52,660 --> 00:48:57,460
the council of 50 minutes giving
the the full name of the body.

846
00:48:57,780 --> 00:49:00,700
It said, you know thus saith the
Lord, this is the name by which

847
00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:04,580
you shall be called the Kingdom
of God and his laws with the

848
00:49:04,580 --> 00:49:08,500
keys and powers thereof and
judgment in the hands of his

849
00:49:08,500 --> 00:49:09,620
servants.
Amen.

850
00:49:09,620 --> 00:49:12,980
Christ.
So it's mentioning the Kingdom

851
00:49:12,980 --> 00:49:17,860
of God holding keys and power.
You know that and and when you

852
00:49:18,180 --> 00:49:22,140
actually look at the sources of
the time period that was

853
00:49:22,140 --> 00:49:24,940
understood to be priesthood
authority and that it was by

854
00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:28,820
virtue of the priesthood
authority that Joseph Smith and

855
00:49:28,820 --> 00:49:32,180
the other brethren held that
they were authorized to set up

856
00:49:32,580 --> 00:49:36,300
the literal Kingdom of God.
Now why were there Gentiles in

857
00:49:36,300 --> 00:49:39,060
it?
I would say, well I would say

858
00:49:39,060 --> 00:49:40,900
what Joseph Smith said.
Joseph Smith said that he

859
00:49:40,900 --> 00:49:45,220
included non Mormons in the
Council of 50 to demonstrate

860
00:49:45,220 --> 00:49:48,500
that the Kingdom of God was
founded upon the principle of

861
00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:54,000
religious freedom, that God that
God would not infringe on any

862
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,240
man's rights and neither would
the Kingdom of God.

863
00:49:56,240 --> 00:49:59,240
But that would actually protect
everyone in their rights

864
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:01,360
regardless of their religious
faith.

865
00:50:01,720 --> 00:50:05,560
And so it was important to
symbolically have non Mormons be

866
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:09,600
members of that council to
represent that God would protect

867
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,560
the rights of everyone and not
just the Latter Day Saints and

868
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,920
the and Joseph Smithson.
And this demonstrates that I am

869
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:20,890
not a religious bigot, that I
that I love a man regardless of

870
00:50:20,890 --> 00:50:22,890
his religious faith.
And I think Joseph Smith said

871
00:50:22,890 --> 00:50:26,330
he'd be just as willing to die
for a good Catholic man as he

872
00:50:26,330 --> 00:50:29,610
would for a Mormon.
So, you know, I think it was

873
00:50:29,610 --> 00:50:33,050
about demonstrating that the,
you know, that that everyone

874
00:50:33,050 --> 00:50:34,810
should have representation,
right?

875
00:50:35,330 --> 00:50:40,210
And Bender F Johnson actually
recalled that it was taught that

876
00:50:40,210 --> 00:50:43,250
ideally, when the Kingdom of God
grows to fill the whole earth,

877
00:50:43,250 --> 00:50:46,970
it would have members from every
principality, tribe and people

878
00:50:46,970 --> 00:50:49,900
on the earth, you know, because
it is important to have

879
00:50:49,900 --> 00:50:52,700
representation.
And and that's why Joseph Smith

880
00:50:52,700 --> 00:50:56,220
didn't just say theocracy.
He said Thea democracy where

881
00:50:56,220 --> 00:50:59,460
it's both, you're getting both
the voice of God and the voice

882
00:50:59,460 --> 00:51:03,020
of the people, and you're trying
to have a harmonization where

883
00:51:03,020 --> 00:51:05,940
they're working together, where
God and the people come together

884
00:51:06,220 --> 00:51:11,500
on issues rather than a tyranny,
you know, as as traditional

885
00:51:11,500 --> 00:51:13,180
theocracies were understood to
be.

886
00:51:13,620 --> 00:51:16,820
Does that make sense?
I guess, I guess I'm a little.

887
00:51:17,950 --> 00:51:22,310
Unsure about this idea of just
having the token non member on

888
00:51:22,310 --> 00:51:24,350
the Council for Appearance's
sakes.

889
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:29,430
Joseph doesn't strike me as that
kind of guy, right?

890
00:51:29,430 --> 00:51:34,230
Joseph was interested in people
who kind of hold their own,

891
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:38,830
right?
And this idea that you're just

892
00:51:38,830 --> 00:51:42,830
having someone on there as a
placeholder and almost a quasi

893
00:51:42,830 --> 00:51:45,470
weird religious affirmative
action?

894
00:51:45,470 --> 00:51:51,230
Sort of.
Theory strikes me, strikes me,

895
00:51:51,550 --> 00:51:53,030
what do you think the non
Mormons?

896
00:51:54,150 --> 00:51:55,990
What do you think the non
Mormons were doing in the

897
00:51:55,990 --> 00:51:59,710
Council of 50?
Honestly, I think Joseph brought

898
00:51:59,710 --> 00:52:02,470
him in because they obviously
had something to contribute,

899
00:52:03,190 --> 00:52:04,670
right?
I think that's true too.

900
00:52:04,910 --> 00:52:07,310
I.
I I don't think Joseph's just

901
00:52:07,310 --> 00:52:09,870
like, I don't care.
Give me whatever Gentile give me

902
00:52:09,870 --> 00:52:13,630
a token gentile to have in here.
I think Joseph was practical

903
00:52:13,630 --> 00:52:16,430
enough to say give me somebody
who can.

904
00:52:16,910 --> 00:52:19,630
Can.
Can get things done as well.

905
00:52:19,910 --> 00:52:23,510
And so as you look at the names
of who were on the council of 50

906
00:52:23,910 --> 00:52:25,550
and forgive me, I don't have a
list right here.

907
00:52:25,550 --> 00:52:29,390
But I remember reading it they
weren't always the guys you

908
00:52:29,390 --> 00:52:32,750
would think about but they were
the guys who got crap done

909
00:52:33,390 --> 00:52:38,430
right.
As I I think as he looked around

910
00:52:38,750 --> 00:52:41,630
I don't think he was doing it
again in some weird religious

911
00:52:41,630 --> 00:52:43,150
affirmative action sort of
sense.

912
00:52:43,150 --> 00:52:45,070
I think he was honestly looking
at.

913
00:52:45,830 --> 00:52:50,550
At this, from a truly
cooperative point of view,

914
00:52:50,550 --> 00:52:53,790
right, Like, not everyone's
going to be a Mormon, right.

915
00:52:53,790 --> 00:52:56,710
And and we certainly know that
Brigham had said certain things

916
00:52:56,710 --> 00:53:00,710
like when Zion's established,
there will be, you know,

917
00:53:00,990 --> 00:53:04,510
Protestants and they'll be all
sorts of people there right in

918
00:53:04,510 --> 00:53:07,070
the not not Zion, the
Millennium.

919
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:12,310
And so I I think Joseph was
like, we're going to have to

920
00:53:12,310 --> 00:53:17,760
live with these folks.
Give me a good man from outside

921
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:19,520
the church who can get things
done.

922
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:24,120
That's the way I see it.
Yeah, I agree with that.

923
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,040
And I think that these were
resourceful guys.

924
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,720
I don't think it's right to
characterize them as a token

925
00:53:28,720 --> 00:53:32,200
gentile affirmative action.
You know, I think these were so

926
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:37,440
like Uriah Brown, for example,
he had invented a kind of a

927
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:42,250
prototype flamethrower that was
supposed to be like a a

928
00:53:43,090 --> 00:53:45,930
brilliant, I don't know if this
weapon actually ever

929
00:53:45,930 --> 00:53:49,370
materialized, but he said he had
a weapon that would basically

930
00:53:49,370 --> 00:53:53,770
douse an entire army and fire
some sort of liquid fire

931
00:53:53,770 --> 00:53:56,530
invention that he had come up
with and so.

932
00:53:56,850 --> 00:53:59,490
That would totally get me to
bring that guy on.

933
00:53:59,770 --> 00:54:02,010
I'd be like, yes, you can be on
the council, but you got to

934
00:54:02,010 --> 00:54:05,130
bring that flame flower too.
We're going to try that out.

935
00:54:05,890 --> 00:54:08,730
So yeah, yeah.
So I think, I think these were

936
00:54:08,730 --> 00:54:12,670
resourceful guys.
But I do think that when when

937
00:54:12,670 --> 00:54:15,030
there began you know after
Joseph Smith's death when

938
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:17,990
Brigham Young reconvened the
council of 50 all the non

939
00:54:17,990 --> 00:54:21,110
Mormons were dropped and they
you know I I believe that I

940
00:54:21,110 --> 00:54:24,750
think part of that had to deal
with emphasizing the fact that

941
00:54:24,750 --> 00:54:27,990
we, you know that there were
tensions between Mormons and non

942
00:54:27,990 --> 00:54:31,870
Mormons and Navu and you know
emphasize you know that kind of

943
00:54:31,910 --> 00:54:36,190
made it be a lot more purely
priested and less temporal in

944
00:54:36,190 --> 00:54:39,630
those you know in a lot of the
subjects they covered.

945
00:54:40,070 --> 00:54:42,630
Correct me if I'm wrong.
I I trust your history more than

946
00:54:42,630 --> 00:54:46,950
I trust my recollection here.
They didn't reorganize the

947
00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:49,430
Council of 50 till they got to
Utah, right?

948
00:54:50,590 --> 00:54:51,870
Nope.
They're they actually

949
00:54:51,950 --> 00:54:57,630
reorganized it in March of 1850.
I mean, not 1845, sorry.

950
00:54:57,670 --> 00:55:00,630
A year after, less than a year
after Joseph Smith's death, they

951
00:55:00,670 --> 00:55:04,550
reconvened the Council.
And the council was actually,

952
00:55:04,550 --> 00:55:08,310
this is one thing that I found
very interesting in the council

953
00:55:08,310 --> 00:55:12,720
50 minutes, is that they were
dealing with all the affairs of

954
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:14,720
the church.
And they were discussing where

955
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,040
is the gathering place going to
be.

956
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,840
And they were discussing what
are we going to do?

957
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:21,720
Are we going to complete the
temple or not?

958
00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:23,680
And the council votes, yes,
we're going to complete the

959
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:26,120
temple.
They're discussing what are we

960
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,680
going to do with our properties
when we leave Nabu.

961
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,240
And they kind of the council
appoints people to, you know,

962
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:37,200
deal with the properties of the
church and they were very active

963
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,920
in all sorts of, you know,
church related matters.

964
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:44,240
And part of the reason the
Council of 50 I think reconvened

965
00:55:44,240 --> 00:55:52,200
in March of 1845 is because the
Navu state legislature had had

966
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,760
repealed the Navu Charter and so
they were not at their own legal

967
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,440
government anymore.
And so they said, well, we got

968
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,640
our own government that doesn't
rely on the authority of the

969
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,850
state but comes gets its
authority from God.

970
00:56:05,850 --> 00:56:09,690
And so the, you know, that's
when the Council 50 was very

971
00:56:09,690 --> 00:56:14,690
active from, you know, March of
1845 or actually it started kind

972
00:56:14,690 --> 00:56:19,770
of in February of 1845 all the
way up to the Exodus in February

973
00:56:19,770 --> 00:56:23,130
of 1846.
And that's actually, that's what

974
00:56:23,130 --> 00:56:25,850
one thing that surprised me
about the council of 50 minutes

975
00:56:25,890 --> 00:56:30,370
is that the majority of the
church only released the Nauvoo

976
00:56:30,370 --> 00:56:33,590
period minutes, but the majority
of them were written after

977
00:56:33,590 --> 00:56:36,350
Joseph Smith's lifetime.
The minutes that were recorded

978
00:56:36,350 --> 00:56:40,430
in Joseph Smith's lifetime were
unfortunately very brief, very

979
00:56:40,430 --> 00:56:45,870
minimal.
You know William Clay and must

980
00:56:45,870 --> 00:56:49,670
have been pretty guarded and and
you know, must have been

981
00:56:49,670 --> 00:56:53,430
concerned about secrecy is why
he probably didn't keep a whole

982
00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:59,220
lot of minutes in the in the in
the 1844 minutes.

983
00:56:59,220 --> 00:57:03,260
But then in 1845 you're getting
very detailed minutes about

984
00:57:03,260 --> 00:57:06,340
these meetings.
So what's fascinating, so I

985
00:57:06,340 --> 00:57:09,260
read, you know there's a
statement by Joseph Smith that

986
00:57:09,500 --> 00:57:12,660
you know it's it's that's
considered to indicate the

987
00:57:12,660 --> 00:57:14,900
Council of 50 was just a
political body.

988
00:57:15,020 --> 00:57:17,740
I'm going to read that just to
give what the statement is.

989
00:57:17,740 --> 00:57:20,100
He said there's a distinction
between the Church of God and

990
00:57:20,100 --> 00:57:22,700
the Kingdom of God.
The laws of the Kingdom are not

991
00:57:22,700 --> 00:57:24,940
designed to affect our salvation
hereafter.

992
00:57:25,140 --> 00:57:27,580
His entire distinct and separate
government.

993
00:57:27,950 --> 00:57:30,990
The Church is a spiritual matter
in a spiritual Kingdom.

994
00:57:31,350 --> 00:57:34,510
But the Kingdom which Daniel saw
was not a spiritual Kingdom but

995
00:57:34,510 --> 00:57:37,790
was designed to be got up for
the safety and salvation of the

996
00:57:37,790 --> 00:57:40,510
Saints by protecting them in
their religious rights and

997
00:57:40,510 --> 00:57:42,870
worship.
Anything that would tolerate man

998
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:45,830
in the worship of his God under
his own vine and fig tree would

999
00:57:45,830 --> 00:57:48,750
be tolerated of God.
The literal Kingdom of God and

1000
00:57:48,750 --> 00:57:51,030
the Church of God are two
distinct things.

1001
00:57:51,430 --> 00:57:54,430
The gifts of prophets,
evangelists, etcetera, never

1002
00:57:54,430 --> 00:57:56,990
were designed to government in
civil matters.

1003
00:57:56,990 --> 00:57:59,390
The Kingdom of God has nothing
to do with giving commandments

1004
00:57:59,390 --> 00:58:02,630
to damn a man spiritually.
It only had power to make a man

1005
00:58:02,630 --> 00:58:05,510
amenable to his fellow man.
God gave commandments.

1006
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:07,870
If a man killed, etcetera, he
should be killed himself.

1007
00:58:07,870 --> 00:58:11,030
But it did not, damn it.
And so it seems to be Joseph

1008
00:58:11,030 --> 00:58:14,430
saying the key thing is the
Kingdom which Daniel saw was not

1009
00:58:14,430 --> 00:58:16,950
a spiritual Kingdom but was
designed to be got up for the

1010
00:58:16,950 --> 00:58:18,630
safety and salvation of the
Saints.

1011
00:58:19,190 --> 00:58:21,950
And then he says the gifts of
prophets, evangelist, etcetera,

1012
00:58:21,950 --> 00:58:24,550
were not designed to government
in civil matters.

1013
00:58:24,550 --> 00:58:29,230
And so those things seem to at
least the surface reading of it

1014
00:58:29,230 --> 00:58:33,070
seemed to indicate that this was
a set completely distinct thing

1015
00:58:33,070 --> 00:58:35,910
from the priesthood, right.
That's kind of the the

1016
00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:37,830
straightforward reading of that
statement.

1017
00:58:38,550 --> 00:58:42,550
But then you get into 1845 and
Brigham Young makes this

1018
00:58:42,550 --> 00:58:47,300
comment, he said with regards to
this Kingdom, it is the 50 that

1019
00:58:47,500 --> 00:58:49,860
governs and controls all the
affairs pertaining to it.

1020
00:58:50,060 --> 00:58:53,380
When Joseph Smith was living, it
was Joseph and his council that

1021
00:58:53,380 --> 00:58:55,060
governed the affairs of the
whole church.

1022
00:58:55,380 --> 00:58:58,340
And now it's the 12 which
governs and I don't suppose that

1023
00:58:58,340 --> 00:59:01,700
any other body could counteract
their influence amongst this

1024
00:59:01,700 --> 00:59:04,020
people.
This 50 will be the governing

1025
00:59:04,020 --> 00:59:05,380
and controlling body of this
Kingdom.

1026
00:59:05,380 --> 00:59:09,340
Even if we call in 10,000 men
into this council, I will defy

1027
00:59:09,420 --> 00:59:13,290
any man to draw the line between
the spiritual and temporal

1028
00:59:13,290 --> 00:59:16,250
affairs in the Kingdom of God.
Every man that is in this

1029
00:59:16,250 --> 00:59:18,930
organization has to do with
everything between earth and

1030
00:59:18,930 --> 00:59:22,770
heaven or hell.
So he seems to, you know, when I

1031
00:59:22,770 --> 00:59:25,490
point that out to a friend who's
big on the Kingdom of the

1032
00:59:25,490 --> 00:59:28,330
Council of 50 was just a
political body, he says, oh,

1033
00:59:28,330 --> 00:59:31,290
Brigham Young just appears to be
contradicting Joseph Smith.

1034
00:59:31,450 --> 00:59:33,930
It's kind of how he interpreted
it.

1035
00:59:33,930 --> 00:59:37,610
But I I would personally say we
got to be cautious thinking that

1036
00:59:37,730 --> 00:59:41,400
Brigham Young didn't understand
what Joseph Smith was teaching

1037
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:44,680
and doing made and and didn't
understand the organizations

1038
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:46,440
that Joseph Smith was
establishing.

1039
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,640
So there's another statement
that stood out when I was, you

1040
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:51,640
know, one of the first people to
read the minutes and that was

1041
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:56,480
this explanation of the Council
of 50 given by Heber C Kimball

1042
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,640
to new members of the body being
added to it, he said.

1043
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:04,800
This council is a place designed
as a place of trial for each one

1044
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:06,880
admitted.
And if we are found faithful in

1045
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:09,640
this council, the time will come
when each one will be anointed

1046
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,480
and ordained priests and kings
in the resurrection.

1047
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,000
Each one of these kings will
appear from their respective

1048
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,960
kingdoms from time to time to
make reports and matters in

1049
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,560
their kingdoms to the King of
Kings, and will receive

1050
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:24,160
instructions to carry to their
respective kingdoms from him.

1051
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,000
Joseph Smith is the king of
kings to this Kingdom.

1052
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:30,040
But he is now gone within the
veil, and President Young takes

1053
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,530
his place.
If a man steps beyond his

1054
01:00:32,530 --> 01:00:35,330
bounds, he will lose his Kingdom
as Lucifer did and will be given

1055
01:00:35,330 --> 01:00:39,170
to others who are more worthy.
Brother Emmett and transcended

1056
01:00:39,170 --> 01:00:41,770
his bounds and he lost his
kingly authority and no more

1057
01:00:41,770 --> 01:00:44,130
member with us.
And so it has been with lime and

1058
01:00:44,130 --> 01:00:46,490
white and others.
And these brethren come in and

1059
01:00:46,490 --> 01:00:49,450
take their crowns and they said
these people called are being

1060
01:00:49,450 --> 01:00:53,170
called to do the most important
work in the in on earth.

1061
01:00:53,530 --> 01:00:56,770
This kind of way says so that's
you know seems to be a very

1062
01:00:56,770 --> 01:01:01,440
strong connecting this to not
only priest authority but the

1063
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:05,320
highest priest authority of of
priests and kings right.

1064
01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:11,200
So you know I because I don't
think that Brigham Young and and

1065
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:13,440
he received Kimball
misunderstood what Joseph Smith

1066
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,000
was teaching.
I go back to that Joseph Smith

1067
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:20,960
statement and in context, the
way I personally look at it is

1068
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,920
that that Joseph was talking
about Daniel chapter 2 and

1069
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,090
Chapter 7, where it talks about
this Kingdom with, you know,

1070
01:01:29,130 --> 01:01:32,090
would break into pieces and
consume kind of the kingdoms of

1071
01:01:32,090 --> 01:01:35,970
this world.
And good Bible commentaries on

1072
01:01:35,970 --> 01:01:41,570
Daniel on these chapters and
Daniel will say that this is a

1073
01:01:41,570 --> 01:01:45,770
government that's, you know,
carrying, you know, that that's

1074
01:01:45,970 --> 01:01:48,450
consuming and swallowing up
other governments.

1075
01:01:49,050 --> 01:01:54,130
And so I don't think so.
Joseph was teaching that there

1076
01:01:54,130 --> 01:01:57,410
was both a temporal and
spiritual aspect of the Kingdom

1077
01:01:57,410 --> 01:01:59,670
of Daniel.
He would often call the

1078
01:01:59,670 --> 01:02:03,230
spiritual aspect of it the order
of pertaining to the ancient of

1079
01:02:03,230 --> 01:02:04,950
days.
And he basically said that's

1080
01:02:04,990 --> 01:02:08,310
everyone being given priestly
authority, going all extending

1081
01:02:08,310 --> 01:02:11,830
back to Father Adam.
And so I see that what Joseph

1082
01:02:11,830 --> 01:02:15,350
Smith is saying here is that the
unique purpose of the Council of

1083
01:02:15,350 --> 01:02:21,990
50 is to exercise, so, you know,
to to temporarily protect the

1084
01:02:21,990 --> 01:02:24,710
Saints in their rights and to
establish a government that

1085
01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:27,830
will, you know, execute the law
of God.

1086
01:02:28,770 --> 01:02:31,050
He makes a comment here, But he
says the gifts of prophets,

1087
01:02:31,050 --> 01:02:34,690
evangelist, etcetera, never were
designed to govern men and civil

1088
01:02:34,690 --> 01:02:37,490
matters.
But Joseph Smith did indicate in

1089
01:02:37,490 --> 01:02:40,170
other statements that there was
a degree of priesthood that did

1090
01:02:40,170 --> 01:02:43,330
have authority, that did have
temporal governing authority.

1091
01:02:43,770 --> 01:02:46,450
He said those holding the
fullness of the Malkensic

1092
01:02:46,450 --> 01:02:49,610
priesthood are kings and priests
of the Most High God holding the

1093
01:02:49,610 --> 01:02:51,770
keys of power and blessing.
Then he goes on.

1094
01:02:51,770 --> 01:02:55,290
He says that priesthood is a
perfect law of theocracy.

1095
01:02:55,450 --> 01:02:58,750
So he's saying that the fullness
of an orchesic priest said had

1096
01:02:58,750 --> 01:03:02,430
the authority to execute a
theocracy according to the law

1097
01:03:02,430 --> 01:03:05,630
of God.
And then in another statement in

1098
01:03:05,630 --> 01:03:09,510
February of 1844, he said, I
want every man that goes on

1099
01:03:09,510 --> 01:03:12,950
expedition W to be a king and a
priest when he gets on the

1100
01:03:12,950 --> 01:03:14,910
mountain.
He may want to talk with his God

1101
01:03:15,070 --> 01:03:18,470
when with the savage nations
have power to govern.

1102
01:03:18,710 --> 01:03:23,310
So Joseph thought that kings of
priests had legitimate governing

1103
01:03:23,310 --> 01:03:27,720
power, and that and this the
connection between the Council

1104
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,840
of 50 and kings of priests
becomes even more clear when you

1105
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:35,200
understand that Joseph Smith was
giving second anointings to his

1106
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:41,040
closest followers from from
September 1843 to February of

1107
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:44,720
1844.
Twenty men and their wives

1108
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,800
received that or that ordinance
to get the fullness of the

1109
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,950
Melchized priesthood.
And then only a few weeks later,

1110
01:03:51,950 --> 01:03:55,950
in March of 1844, he begins to
organize these men who have the

1111
01:03:55,950 --> 01:03:59,390
fullness of the priesthood into
the Council of 50, but also with

1112
01:03:59,510 --> 01:04:02,790
other members of the church.
Obviously it's a council of 50,

1113
01:04:02,790 --> 01:04:06,070
so there's going to be more than
just save the 20 men who had

1114
01:04:06,070 --> 01:04:07,550
received their second
anointings.

1115
01:04:07,710 --> 01:04:11,790
I think every man he gave the
second annoying to, except there

1116
01:04:11,790 --> 01:04:13,750
was one man.
I believe it was pretty old.

1117
01:04:13,830 --> 01:04:17,550
He wasn't inducted into the
council of 50 by Joseph Smith.

1118
01:04:17,550 --> 01:04:21,990
So it might might have been
because he was, you know too old

1119
01:04:21,990 --> 01:04:23,830
to really have an active
participation.

1120
01:04:23,830 --> 01:04:27,870
And you know the Theo Democrat,
you know Theo democracy and the

1121
01:04:27,870 --> 01:04:32,190
government of the Kingdom.
So, So yeah, I see Joseph Smith

1122
01:04:32,190 --> 01:04:36,150
as emphasizing that the unique
role of the Council of 50, even

1123
01:04:36,150 --> 01:04:39,630
though you guys there are
statements in the minutes where

1124
01:04:40,030 --> 01:04:43,190
they're recognizing that the
Council of 50 has priests

1125
01:04:43,190 --> 01:04:45,670
authority.
He's saying that the unique role

1126
01:04:45,670 --> 01:04:48,760
is to execute a temporal
government and that than to not

1127
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:52,000
be as involved with spiritual
matters, if that makes sense.

1128
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:54,280
Sure.
Now let me ask you this.

1129
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,360
How was Joseph?
How was Joseph figuring this was

1130
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,920
going to operate, right?
Because it's one thing to

1131
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:06,760
operate this in Utah, right?
During that time period, there's

1132
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,880
no one else here, right?
It's another thing to do it in a

1133
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,400
place that already had
constitutional law.

1134
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:17,440
So how did he see that
functioning within Illinois?

1135
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:22,520
Well, I feel like he knew that
it wouldn't functionally work in

1136
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,440
Illinois.
So that's why one of the primary

1137
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,920
things with the Council of 50
was wanting to send out new

1138
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:32,560
settle, start new settlements.
The letters that sparked Joseph

1139
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,640
Smith to say that the Spirit is
revealed it's time to organize

1140
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:38,560
the Kingdom were letters
received by Lyman White and

1141
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:42,280
George Miller, who were up in
Wisconsin getting lumber for the

1142
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:44,500
temple.
And they kind of said we think

1143
01:05:44,500 --> 01:05:47,380
there should probably be a
second gathering place for the

1144
01:05:47,380 --> 01:05:51,660
church based, you know, probably
in the South for people who are

1145
01:05:51,940 --> 01:05:56,820
more politically and socially,
you know, of that of that

1146
01:05:56,820 --> 01:06:00,220
region, you know, and aren't as
used to the harsher climates of

1147
01:06:00,220 --> 01:06:02,780
the North.
And they said Texas seems like

1148
01:06:02,780 --> 01:06:05,540
it would be a great place for a
new gathering place.

1149
01:06:05,540 --> 01:06:09,070
And Joseph Smith was like, I
perceive they have the spirit of

1150
01:06:09,070 --> 01:06:12,350
God and the pineries, and we
should begin to organize the

1151
01:06:12,350 --> 01:06:15,070
Kingdom by organizing some of
its officers.

1152
01:06:15,350 --> 01:06:18,550
And so the big thing, one of the
big things discuss the Council

1153
01:06:18,550 --> 01:06:22,710
50 is where are we going to go
so we can settle without being

1154
01:06:22,710 --> 01:06:27,310
infringed upon by, you know, by,
you know, other states or the

1155
01:06:27,310 --> 01:06:29,990
American government.
Because they were constantly,

1156
01:06:30,070 --> 01:06:32,590
even though Illinois was a
relatively peaceful time in the

1157
01:06:32,590 --> 01:06:35,910
history of the church, they were
still facing extradition threats

1158
01:06:35,910 --> 01:06:40,170
from Missouri and political
problems with the Illinois

1159
01:06:40,210 --> 01:06:42,770
legislature.
You know, there were threats of

1160
01:06:42,770 --> 01:06:46,570
wanting to repeal this, the the,
the Navu charter, which the NAVU

1161
01:06:46,570 --> 01:06:49,490
charter is what gave the Saints
their rights and their liberties

1162
01:06:49,490 --> 01:06:53,450
for and gave them peace for
about, you know, four years in

1163
01:06:53,610 --> 01:06:55,570
the last four years of Joseph
Smith's life.

1164
01:06:57,130 --> 01:07:01,010
And so they were looking to
either Texas and Joseph Smith

1165
01:07:01,010 --> 01:07:04,210
actually kind of admitted, I'm
not too fond on Texas, but Lyman

1166
01:07:04,210 --> 01:07:06,920
White wants to go.
And so I figure if he wants to

1167
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:10,440
try to start a gathering there
that you know he should be, you

1168
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:14,880
know that he should do that.
Before you finish your thought,

1169
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:18,600
and then I want to get the rest
of that Texas and and the

1170
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:20,840
Mormons have quite a history,
actually.

1171
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:27,560
Sam Houston was a contemporary
of Joseph Smith and actually

1172
01:07:27,560 --> 01:07:30,360
offered him the ground that
would become Houston.

1173
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:38,090
I mean, so if he was.
Texas and the church have have

1174
01:07:39,010 --> 01:07:42,130
have always flirted, so to
speak, which I found interesting

1175
01:07:42,130 --> 01:07:46,010
and fascinating.
Yep, so.

1176
01:07:46,010 --> 01:07:49,090
So the council was not entirely
throwing away being a part of

1177
01:07:49,090 --> 01:07:52,570
the United States because Joseph
Smith, you know, a month earlier

1178
01:07:52,570 --> 01:07:55,450
and announced his candidacy for
president of the United States.

1179
01:07:55,730 --> 01:08:00,450
He figured we might as well try
to reform this government to be,

1180
01:08:00,450 --> 01:08:03,980
you know, to protect our rights.
And, you know, and so he was

1181
01:08:03,980 --> 01:08:07,140
running for president and the
Council 50 discussed, you know,

1182
01:08:07,140 --> 01:08:10,180
the electioneering campaigns,
who missionaries were being sent

1183
01:08:10,180 --> 01:08:13,940
out to both preach the gospel
and stump campaign for Joseph

1184
01:08:13,940 --> 01:08:17,300
Smith's candidacy.
And he had hundreds of men who

1185
01:08:17,300 --> 01:08:21,020
were sent out doing this.
And it, you know, some sources

1186
01:08:21,020 --> 01:08:23,979
say that this actually scared
the political establishment of

1187
01:08:23,979 --> 01:08:27,420
his day, that, you know, nobody
had the influence that Joseph

1188
01:08:27,420 --> 01:08:30,660
Smith did to be able to have
hundreds of men on a moment's

1189
01:08:30,660 --> 01:08:34,460
notice be willing to go out and
and serve missions to preach his

1190
01:08:34,500 --> 01:08:38,779
political candidacy.
And so the council was involved

1191
01:08:38,779 --> 01:08:42,260
with Joseph's political
campaign, which was ideal, you

1192
01:08:42,260 --> 01:08:46,140
know, to and you know, to try to
get the government to be more

1193
01:08:46,140 --> 01:08:48,140
favorable to protecting the
Mormons rights.

1194
01:08:48,340 --> 01:08:51,380
But also it was falling back on
this idea of we need to have a

1195
01:08:51,380 --> 01:08:55,220
new settlement out West outside
of the bounds of the United

1196
01:08:55,220 --> 01:08:57,540
States at that time.
And so they were looking at

1197
01:08:57,540 --> 01:09:00,029
Texas.
They were also looking at the

1198
01:09:00,069 --> 01:09:03,189
Oregon territory, which Oregon
territory at that time was not

1199
01:09:03,189 --> 01:09:06,390
just the little state of Oregon,
but it was like extended you

1200
01:09:06,390 --> 01:09:09,670
know, up to Washington all the
way out to, I think parts of

1201
01:09:09,670 --> 01:09:11,430
California, all the way out to
Utah.

1202
01:09:11,870 --> 01:09:14,910
And so there actually is a
statement in February of 1844

1203
01:09:14,910 --> 01:09:17,790
where Joseph Smith says is
talking with the 12 apostles

1204
01:09:17,790 --> 01:09:21,390
about, you know, we're looking
for a gather, you know, for a

1205
01:09:21,390 --> 01:09:24,390
place where me we can have peace
and safety in the Rocky

1206
01:09:24,390 --> 01:09:26,689
Mountains.
So that was in Joseph Smith's

1207
01:09:26,689 --> 01:09:28,729
lifetime.
He was considering the Rocky

1208
01:09:28,729 --> 01:09:31,970
Mountains in a that's written in
his contemporary journal.

1209
01:09:32,290 --> 01:09:36,569
So that was a big issue.
But I do think that the priest

1210
01:09:36,569 --> 01:09:40,609
of connection shouldn't be
understated in that we, you

1211
01:09:40,609 --> 01:09:44,569
know, part of the reason we have
the priestly connection is

1212
01:09:44,569 --> 01:09:48,729
because of there are a number of
sources that indicate that

1213
01:09:48,729 --> 01:09:51,729
Joseph Smith's last charge to
bear off the church and Kingdom

1214
01:09:51,729 --> 01:09:55,880
of God to all the world was to
the Council of 50 and not just

1215
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:58,680
to the the apostles.
Most people are familiar with

1216
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:02,480
Benji F Johnson's accounts.
But there's other accounts that

1217
01:10:02,480 --> 01:10:05,680
that you know there's other
first hand, second and second

1218
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:10,080
hand and and also some illusion
accounts that are possibly third

1219
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:16,080
hand kind of tying the Council
of 50 to you know, this last

1220
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:19,200
charge meeting where Joseph
Smith is saying that you guys

1221
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:21,400
need to carry out the work that
I've started for.

1222
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:23,560
I'm, I'm going to rest for a
while.

1223
01:10:24,020 --> 01:10:27,140
And Wilfred Woodruff said that
they didn't understand it at the

1224
01:10:27,140 --> 01:10:29,420
time, that Joseph was expecting
to die.

1225
01:10:29,860 --> 01:10:33,180
You know, even though in
retrospect, like, Oh yeah, he he

1226
01:10:33,180 --> 01:10:36,460
knew he was going to die.
But at the time they thought he

1227
01:10:36,460 --> 01:10:38,540
was just like, I'm going to be
taking a break.

1228
01:10:38,580 --> 01:10:41,620
You guys need to carry on the
work that I'm starting, you

1229
01:10:41,620 --> 01:10:45,380
know.
And so it's very fascinating.

1230
01:10:45,380 --> 01:10:48,780
The last charge isn't included
in the council of 50 Minutes

1231
01:10:48,780 --> 01:10:52,420
themselves, but there is a
discussion about the last charge

1232
01:10:52,910 --> 01:10:58,070
a year later, in March of 1845.
And Orson Hyde had written a

1233
01:10:58,110 --> 01:11:02,070
nice long certificate about the
12 apostles receiving their

1234
01:11:02,070 --> 01:11:05,310
authority through a wholly
anointing and also being charged

1235
01:11:05,550 --> 01:11:08,670
to bear off the Kingdom.
And they he read it to the

1236
01:11:08,670 --> 01:11:13,950
Council of 50 and he wanted as
many who are present to on this

1237
01:11:13,950 --> 01:11:17,110
occasion to sign it as
witnesses, is what the Minutes

1238
01:11:17,110 --> 01:11:19,070
record, he said.
And so then there's some

1239
01:11:19,070 --> 01:11:22,470
discussion about the certificate
that Orson Hyde wrote.

1240
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:25,160
But then there Brigham Young
kind of shuts down the

1241
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:28,280
discussion with this very
interesting comment, he said.

1242
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:32,400
It writes he wants Elder Hyde to
write his farewell to rigdonism

1243
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:35,800
and let the 12 alone.
He don't care whether the world

1244
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,000
knows the authority and power of
the 12 or not.

1245
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:42,280
When the time comes, they shall
feel our power and we shall not

1246
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:45,480
try to prove it to them.
In regards to Joseph's remarks,

1247
01:11:45,950 --> 01:11:48,430
he did not mention anything
about the anointing.

1248
01:11:48,710 --> 01:11:51,590
He said it was this council of
50 which had to bear the

1249
01:11:51,590 --> 01:11:55,470
responsibility of establishing
the Kingdom in all the world.

1250
01:11:56,270 --> 01:12:00,110
So there's a very point blank
Brigham Young statement saying

1251
01:12:00,110 --> 01:12:03,110
that the, the the meeting that
Orson Hyde's recalling that

1252
01:12:03,110 --> 01:12:06,350
Joseph didn't mention the
anointing that the apostles had

1253
01:12:06,350 --> 01:12:09,950
received at that meeting.
But he did say that it was this

1254
01:12:11,180 --> 01:12:15,140
council of 50 who was to who was
to bear the responsibility of

1255
01:12:15,140 --> 01:12:17,980
establishing the Kingdom and all
of the world.

1256
01:12:18,460 --> 01:12:22,140
And so you know this is a very
significant statement and it

1257
01:12:22,220 --> 01:12:24,860
actually begs questions like
what do you mean he didn't

1258
01:12:24,860 --> 01:12:29,580
mention the anointing.
So what was the significance of

1259
01:12:29,860 --> 01:12:33,500
the last charge if Joseph?
If Joseph didn't mention the the

1260
01:12:33,500 --> 01:12:36,140
anointing, you know, does that?
Was there an anointing first of

1261
01:12:36,140 --> 01:12:37,860
all?
And second of all, what?

1262
01:12:38,390 --> 01:12:40,750
Can't get enough of the Mormon
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1263
01:12:40,910 --> 01:12:43,670
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1264
01:12:43,670 --> 01:12:45,150
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01:12:45,670 --> 01:12:48,790
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1266
01:12:48,790 --> 01:12:51,830
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1267
01:12:51,830 --> 01:12:54,030
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01:12:54,030 --> 01:12:56,990
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1269
01:12:57,270 --> 01:13:01,270
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1270
01:13:01,790 --> 01:13:04,150
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1271
01:13:04,620 --> 01:13:07,300
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1272
01:13:07,300 --> 01:13:11,100
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1273
01:13:11,100 --> 01:13:14,660
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1274
01:13:14,660 --> 01:13:17,100
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1275
01:13:17,100 --> 01:13:20,860
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1276
01:13:20,900 --> 01:13:23,380
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01:13:23,380 --> 01:13:26,220
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01:13:26,220 --> 01:13:28,460
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What authority?

1279
01:13:28,460 --> 01:13:30,500
What did Joseph Smith mean when
he said they had the

1280
01:13:30,500 --> 01:13:35,020
responsibility of establishing
the Kingdom in all of the world?

1281
01:13:35,460 --> 01:13:40,500
And so I started to kind of
gather historical sources on the

1282
01:13:40,500 --> 01:13:46,420
subject of, you know, compiling
dozens of of accounts of the

1283
01:13:46,420 --> 01:13:49,460
last charge.
And what kind of even provoked

1284
01:13:49,460 --> 01:13:52,180
me even more to basically say I
need to write a paper on the

1285
01:13:52,180 --> 01:13:58,300
subject, was there was a a paper
by John Dinger in 2017 called

1286
01:13:58,580 --> 01:14:01,580
the Council of 50 Orson Hyde.
And the last charge, a

1287
01:14:01,580 --> 01:14:04,530
reevaluation.
And in this paper, John Dinger

1288
01:14:04,530 --> 01:14:07,250
tries to argue there wasn't even
a significant last charge.

1289
01:14:07,250 --> 01:14:10,530
He says based off of the council
of 50 minutes, based off of the

1290
01:14:10,530 --> 01:14:13,010
fact that Brigham Young didn't
want the certificate to be

1291
01:14:13,010 --> 01:14:15,570
published.
I don't think that there was a

1292
01:14:15,570 --> 01:14:18,970
significant last charge.
And the other thing he points

1293
01:14:18,970 --> 01:14:22,530
out Dinger does in this article
is that William Clayton's

1294
01:14:22,530 --> 01:14:27,370
journal in July of 1844 when
they're discussing succession

1295
01:14:27,370 --> 01:14:31,610
after Joseph Smith's death,
they're discussing whether the

1296
01:14:32,980 --> 01:14:35,340
you know who who's going to be
the president of the church.

1297
01:14:35,620 --> 01:14:39,860
And William Clayton records his
journal that Joseph said that if

1298
01:14:39,860 --> 01:14:42,980
he and Hiram were killed that
Samuel Smith would would take

1299
01:14:42,980 --> 01:14:46,420
his place.
And they're also discussing some

1300
01:14:46,660 --> 01:14:49,100
people are suggesting could
William Marks be the head of the

1301
01:14:49,100 --> 01:14:54,020
church and their initially some
of the members of the anointed

1302
01:14:54,020 --> 01:14:55,980
quorum are kind of favorable to
that.

1303
01:14:56,300 --> 01:15:00,100
And William Clayton then records
that Newell K Whitney takes him

1304
01:15:00,100 --> 01:15:04,860
aside and says, hey, William
Marks can't be the successor and

1305
01:15:04,860 --> 01:15:07,020
the trustee and trust over the
church.

1306
01:15:07,340 --> 01:15:11,180
He because he is not favorable
in the most important matters

1307
01:15:11,180 --> 01:15:13,580
and he will destroy our
spiritual blessings.

1308
01:15:14,020 --> 01:15:16,420
And that's referencing the fact
that William Marks had turned

1309
01:15:16,420 --> 01:15:19,500
apostate to the temple
ordinances to the doctor of

1310
01:15:19,500 --> 01:15:22,460
plural marriage.
And so somebody who's apostate

1311
01:15:22,460 --> 01:15:25,420
on all of these principles
Joseph was restoring would

1312
01:15:25,580 --> 01:15:28,060
definitely not be the head of
the church, right.

1313
01:15:28,420 --> 01:15:30,780
You know, you could.
I've heard some people try to

1314
01:15:30,780 --> 01:15:33,300
say Sidney Rigdon, as a
surviving member of the First

1315
01:15:33,300 --> 01:15:37,340
Presidency, had the best claim
to being the the the next

1316
01:15:37,340 --> 01:15:41,940
president of the church.
But Rigdon was he was, first of

1317
01:15:41,940 --> 01:15:45,420
all, not mentally all there.
He had some mental issues.

1318
01:15:45,780 --> 01:15:48,860
And second of all, he had not
been faithful to all these newer

1319
01:15:48,860 --> 01:15:51,140
principles that Joseph was
restoring.

1320
01:15:51,140 --> 01:15:55,220
Like, you know, he was being
buddies with John C Bennett and

1321
01:15:55,220 --> 01:15:58,980
he was against plural marriage.
So Sidney Rigdon is a nogo with

1322
01:15:59,450 --> 01:16:02,330
when it came to succession.
But what John Dinger pointed out

1323
01:16:02,330 --> 01:16:06,410
in this paper was that they
there he said if Joseph had

1324
01:16:06,410 --> 01:16:09,850
appointed the 12 to be the head
of the church in his lifetime,

1325
01:16:10,170 --> 01:16:13,810
then why isn't that mentioned in
William Clayton's journal?

1326
01:16:14,370 --> 01:16:18,050
And a friend of mine who I
really respect and was kind of

1327
01:16:18,170 --> 01:16:21,210
who taught me a lot about Mormon
history, he, to my shock, was

1328
01:16:21,210 --> 01:16:24,090
kind of influenced by Dinger.
He's like, whoa, this was a

1329
01:16:24,090 --> 01:16:26,980
pretty compelling paper.
And I'm like, are you telling me

1330
01:16:26,980 --> 01:16:30,140
that all the apostles and all
these other people who gave

1331
01:16:30,140 --> 01:16:32,260
accounts the last charge were
lying about it?

1332
01:16:32,420 --> 01:16:36,300
I really don't think that, you
know, you know, And so that kind

1333
01:16:36,300 --> 01:16:38,940
of compelled me to start to
write my own paper on the

1334
01:16:38,940 --> 01:16:41,540
Council of 50.
And the last charge.

1335
01:16:42,060 --> 01:16:44,820
And for me, I wasn't.
I didn't find John Dinger's

1336
01:16:44,820 --> 01:16:50,460
arguments too persuasive because
I long believe that the, you

1337
01:16:50,460 --> 01:16:53,180
know, what Joseph was doing at
the last charge wasn't

1338
01:16:53,180 --> 01:16:55,940
appointing his successor.
But he was just telling the

1339
01:16:55,940 --> 01:16:59,300
priest and brethren that he had
taught all the higher principles

1340
01:16:59,300 --> 01:17:02,780
of the Kingdom, that they needed
to keep these principles alive

1341
01:17:02,780 --> 01:17:04,820
and make sure that they continue
no matter what.

1342
01:17:05,220 --> 01:17:08,260
You know, I think that was the
big thing that was going on at

1343
01:17:08,260 --> 01:17:11,420
the last chart.
So of course it wouldn't come up

1344
01:17:11,420 --> 01:17:14,900
in the succession discussions in
July of 1844.

1345
01:17:15,380 --> 01:17:19,260
And you know, Brigham Young
obviously wouldn't want it it to

1346
01:17:19,260 --> 01:17:23,490
be used as the basis for the
Twelves authority claims if it

1347
01:17:23,490 --> 01:17:28,410
wasn't really the main or you
know the full picture of the 12

1348
01:17:28,450 --> 01:17:30,610
authority claims that that makes
sense.

1349
01:17:31,090 --> 01:17:35,210
So I started collecting other
things on the council of 50

1350
01:17:35,210 --> 01:17:38,410
being considered a priesthood
body, I found out that Altheus

1351
01:17:38,410 --> 01:17:40,650
Cutler was teaching his
followers that it was a priest

1352
01:17:40,650 --> 01:17:42,890
of body.
Lyman White was teaching his

1353
01:17:42,890 --> 01:17:45,890
followers as priest of body.
Peter Hawes is a member of the

1354
01:17:45,890 --> 01:17:49,890
50 was teach was arguing this
and James Whitehead is a member

1355
01:17:49,890 --> 01:17:54,170
of the RLDS Church When it was
saying that the council of 50

1356
01:17:54,170 --> 01:17:56,770
was kind of this highest
Priested body and that there

1357
01:17:56,770 --> 01:18:01,330
were even people who rejected
Navu Mormonism and believe

1358
01:18:01,330 --> 01:18:03,130
Joseph Smith was the fallen
prophet.

1359
01:18:04,210 --> 01:18:06,930
Who the Bruce strikes were in
their writings were saying that

1360
01:18:06,930 --> 01:18:10,610
Joseph had ordained a council of
50 ordained kings and priests

1361
01:18:10,810 --> 01:18:13,770
holding authority that no
tribunal in the church could

1362
01:18:13,770 --> 01:18:16,290
control.
And so I had gathered up all

1363
01:18:16,290 --> 01:18:19,410
these sources and then like
Sidney Rigdon and James Strang

1364
01:18:19,730 --> 01:18:23,720
had instituted replicated
councils of 50s in their church,

1365
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:26,960
governments, kingdoms.
They they weren't 50.

1366
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:30,640
James String was like actually
it should be up to 144 and

1367
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:33,320
Sydney Rigdon's like actually it
should be up to 70 is kind of

1368
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:36,720
we're 73 with Sydney Rigdon's,
but they put it as the head of

1369
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:42,080
their church governments.
And so I'm looking at all these

1370
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:45,200
sources and you know, I'm
compiling them together just so

1371
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:48,670
there's a very compelling case
that the Council of 50 was

1372
01:18:48,670 --> 01:18:52,990
considered a, a priesthood body
by all the various branches of

1373
01:18:52,990 --> 01:18:55,350
the Restoration after Joseph
Smith's death.

1374
01:18:55,950 --> 01:19:00,910
And so that kind of solved 1
issue for me from, you know, how

1375
01:19:00,910 --> 01:19:05,110
do, how do I interpret, you
know, these the the Council of

1376
01:19:05,110 --> 01:19:07,830
50 minutes on the Council of 50.
So then my second question was

1377
01:19:08,510 --> 01:19:11,710
what was, was there an wholly
anointing in connection with the

1378
01:19:11,710 --> 01:19:13,270
last charge?
Because there were a number of

1379
01:19:13,270 --> 01:19:16,420
sources like Orson Hyde
Certificate saying that Joseph

1380
01:19:16,420 --> 01:19:20,220
and Hiram conducted the men
through a wholly anointing just

1381
01:19:20,220 --> 01:19:24,260
previous to you know, giving
this last charge speech.

1382
01:19:24,260 --> 01:19:26,940
And then there's also, you know
Ben Jeff Johnson would say that

1383
01:19:27,340 --> 01:19:30,820
after all was completed and the
keys of power committed, then

1384
01:19:30,820 --> 01:19:33,380
Joseph gave this last charge
speech.

1385
01:19:33,820 --> 01:19:37,220
So I started CAN.
I push back on something real

1386
01:19:37,220 --> 01:19:42,500
quick here, OK, if if the
Council of 50 was that

1387
01:19:42,500 --> 01:19:46,420
important.
Why didn't Brigham really push

1388
01:19:46,420 --> 01:19:49,540
it a lot harder when he got to
the Salt Lake Territory, to the

1389
01:19:49,540 --> 01:19:52,980
Utah Territory?
We know that it was reconvened,

1390
01:19:53,420 --> 01:19:59,460
but he didn't.
I don't think he made it as as

1391
01:19:59,460 --> 01:20:04,180
powerful of an organization as,
say, the Quorum of the 12th.

1392
01:20:04,180 --> 01:20:07,340
What was the reasoning behind
that, especially where it was

1393
01:20:07,340 --> 01:20:10,140
Brigham?
And I tend to think that Brigham

1394
01:20:10,140 --> 01:20:12,140
doesn't stray a whole bunch from
Joseph.

1395
01:20:16,770 --> 01:20:18,930
That's a good question.
I would say that it was actually

1396
01:20:18,970 --> 01:20:24,770
a slow shift in due to the
practicality of the way the

1397
01:20:24,770 --> 01:20:28,090
council was convened.
To make any decision binding,

1398
01:20:28,130 --> 01:20:31,370
they all had to come to
unanimous agreement on any

1399
01:20:31,370 --> 01:20:34,490
decision.
And so practically it was a lot

1400
01:20:34,490 --> 01:20:39,590
easier to have the 12, you know,
kind of work, you know, as a

1401
01:20:39,590 --> 01:20:42,750
council be unanimous on a
decision than to to take every

1402
01:20:42,750 --> 01:20:46,870
decision to the council of 50.
Brigham Young kind of said that

1403
01:20:46,870 --> 01:20:51,270
if you throw the authority to
the to the 70s, they can't

1404
01:20:51,270 --> 01:20:54,110
handle the Kingdom and neither
can the 50 is kind of what

1405
01:20:54,510 --> 01:20:58,350
Brigham Young said and what
George A Smith said, he's he

1406
01:20:58,350 --> 01:21:01,550
said the council of 50 was a
debating school, was what he

1407
01:21:01,550 --> 01:21:03,190
said.
So he clearly felt that there

1408
01:21:03,190 --> 01:21:07,150
was way more debate and not as
much getting things done.

1409
01:21:08,050 --> 01:21:09,570
But I do think Brigham Young
did.

1410
01:21:10,050 --> 01:21:12,810
According to the Council 50
Minute editors, we don't have

1411
01:21:13,290 --> 01:21:16,130
the Utah Council of 50 Minutes.
But according to the editors in

1412
01:21:16,130 --> 01:21:20,450
early Utah, the Council of 50
was still actively in in doing

1413
01:21:20,450 --> 01:21:25,170
both ecclesiastical and temporal
functions in the early Utah

1414
01:21:25,170 --> 01:21:28,450
period under Brigham Young.
I I wish we could get a hold of

1415
01:21:28,610 --> 01:21:31,810
of those Utah minutes, but the
church, I doubt they'll ever

1416
01:21:32,250 --> 01:21:35,900
release those.
But, but basically the council

1417
01:21:35,900 --> 01:21:39,300
continued to meet until about
18501851.

1418
01:21:39,620 --> 01:21:44,140
Then so many members of the
council of 50 had been sent out

1419
01:21:44,300 --> 01:21:50,940
on different, different
settlement, you know, pioneer

1420
01:21:50,940 --> 01:21:53,980
expeditions, you know, going to
start new, new settlements in

1421
01:21:53,980 --> 01:21:56,940
different places that they were
so spread out as Brigham Young

1422
01:21:56,940 --> 01:21:59,540
is starting to colonize the
Rocky Mountains that he

1423
01:21:59,540 --> 01:22:03,100
basically, when the council
reconvened in 1867, Brigham

1424
01:22:03,100 --> 01:22:05,980
Young said, you know, the reason
we haven't been able to meet is

1425
01:22:05,980 --> 01:22:09,380
because it's not been convenient
to get a full quorum.

1426
01:22:09,780 --> 01:22:13,060
You know, you need at least 25
half of the council to have a

1427
01:22:13,060 --> 01:22:16,460
legal meeting.
And he said we just couldn't get

1428
01:22:16,460 --> 01:22:17,860
a full quorum.
And that's actually when you

1429
01:22:17,860 --> 01:22:20,860
look, according to the
historians who've who've seen

1430
01:22:20,860 --> 01:22:24,580
excerpts of the 50 minutes that
that stopped meeting in the

1431
01:22:24,580 --> 01:22:28,020
early 1850s because they were
having trouble getting at least

1432
01:22:28,020 --> 01:22:32,260
25 guys together to to do an
official council of 50 meeting,

1433
01:22:32,660 --> 01:22:36,060
you know, because so many people
were either on missions or

1434
01:22:36,060 --> 01:22:39,060
spread out doing other
colonization efforts, if that

1435
01:22:39,060 --> 01:22:43,020
makes sense.
And Bender F Johnson

1436
01:22:43,020 --> 01:22:48,620
interestingly wrote he he
actually said that Brigham

1437
01:22:48,620 --> 01:22:50,940
didn't discontinued the council
of 50 in a letter he wrote in

1438
01:22:50,940 --> 01:22:55,500
1903 to George Escheb's uses.
I will say that this council as

1439
01:22:55,500 --> 01:23:01,580
a legislative so it so it so he
says he says to show you that I

1440
01:23:01,580 --> 01:23:03,860
do know the motive of President
Young and sending the Mormon

1441
01:23:03,860 --> 01:23:05,740
battalion.
I will say that I was one of the

1442
01:23:05,740 --> 01:23:08,660
special counsel organized by the
prophet of which I've spoken in

1443
01:23:08,660 --> 01:23:11,420
which President Young being that
said I still hold them I see and

1444
01:23:11,420 --> 01:23:14,300
still had a voice in all general
movements relating to our exodus

1445
01:23:14,580 --> 01:23:17,540
as a people from NABU.
I'll say that this council as a

1446
01:23:17,540 --> 01:23:20,540
legislature of the people did
continue under the presidency

1447
01:23:20,540 --> 01:23:23,820
became the colonial council or
legislature of the state of

1448
01:23:23,820 --> 01:23:26,540
Deseret.
I was present at the you know,

1449
01:23:26,540 --> 01:23:29,820
and he goes on and says that you
know Brigham Young, you know did

1450
01:23:29,940 --> 01:23:34,580
try to continue the council of
50 and even John Taylor in John

1451
01:23:34,580 --> 01:23:39,020
Taylor got a revelation in 1880
that kind of pushed him to to

1452
01:23:39,020 --> 01:23:42,420
reconvene the council of 50 and
and keep it going.

1453
01:23:42,740 --> 01:23:45,420
So, you know, it doesn't really
fall.

1454
01:23:45,580 --> 01:23:50,200
The Council of 50 continues
until John Taylor is forced into

1455
01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:55,240
exile because of the persecution
the 1880s over plural marriage

1456
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:57,840
that that's when it stops
meeting and and never

1457
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:01,240
reconvenes.
But basically, I compiled a

1458
01:24:01,240 --> 01:24:04,480
bunch of sources that kind of
demonstrate that Joseph was

1459
01:24:04,920 --> 01:24:08,840
giving temple ordinances to
select other men even outside of

1460
01:24:09,280 --> 01:24:11,920
the the the anointed quorum.
Most people think all the

1461
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:15,160
ordinances happened in the
Anointed Quorum, but there were

1462
01:24:15,460 --> 01:24:19,380
at least two or three different
Council 50 members like James M

1463
01:24:20,100 --> 01:24:27,820
and George J Adams, both lots.
Multiple sources indicated that

1464
01:24:27,820 --> 01:24:32,220
Joseph had given them some sort
of keys or anointing or temple

1465
01:24:32,220 --> 01:24:35,740
authority or endowment.
So even though they were in the

1466
01:24:37,060 --> 01:24:39,780
anointed corpsman, I would argue
that he was giving those to

1467
01:24:39,780 --> 01:24:43,190
select members of the 50 as he
was trying to send them out on

1468
01:24:43,190 --> 01:24:46,510
assignments basically to
demonstrate that this power

1469
01:24:46,510 --> 01:24:50,630
belongs to, you know, these men
in the Council 50 as you know,

1470
01:24:50,630 --> 01:24:53,750
the as the literal Kingdom of
God on earth.

1471
01:24:56,030 --> 01:24:59,510
And so I I I view that the last
charge was a significant event

1472
01:24:59,510 --> 01:25:02,830
and I ended up presenting a
paper on it that sunstone in

1473
01:25:02,830 --> 01:25:06,830
2018 that was my first Mormon
history paper that that really

1474
01:25:06,830 --> 01:25:09,910
kind of got me going in Mormon
history.

1475
01:25:12,570 --> 01:25:15,650
And and yeah, the last charges
is a fascinating subject and

1476
01:25:15,650 --> 01:25:19,570
it's very important for us to to
understand that it does play a

1477
01:25:19,570 --> 01:25:21,850
role in bringing young
succession claims in that the

1478
01:25:21,850 --> 01:25:25,490
apostles were claiming to have
been both anointed and appointed

1479
01:25:25,810 --> 01:25:28,370
to really lead the church.
They were anointed through

1480
01:25:28,370 --> 01:25:31,010
having received all the keys and
powers of the priests through

1481
01:25:31,010 --> 01:25:33,730
the temple ordinances and they
felt they were appointed to lead

1482
01:25:33,730 --> 01:25:36,970
the church as some of the
faithful brethren of the council

1483
01:25:36,970 --> 01:25:40,870
of 50 or Kingdom of God who are
trying to carry out goes with

1484
01:25:40,870 --> 01:25:42,590
Smith's measures, if that makes
sense.

1485
01:25:45,550 --> 01:25:49,230
My second paper that really got
me rolling and actually

1486
01:25:49,430 --> 01:25:53,230
publishing in Mormon history in
2018.

1487
01:25:53,230 --> 01:25:56,030
So I published that paper in
2018 and another significant

1488
01:25:56,030 --> 01:26:00,310
thing came out in 2018 and that
was the full George Buchanan

1489
01:26:00,310 --> 01:26:04,790
Diaries and those Diaries.
Just, you know, he was a

1490
01:26:04,790 --> 01:26:12,240
prolific writer and and recorded
tons about what was going on in,

1491
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:16,640
you know, the church in the
1880s, eighteen 90s, you know,

1492
01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:20,560
And one thing that I thought was
very significant was that he

1493
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:24,000
kind of records in more detail
than anyone else's circumstances

1494
01:26:24,000 --> 01:26:27,000
behind John Taylor being
anointed and ordained as

1495
01:26:27,000 --> 01:26:30,840
prophet, precinct king over the
Kingdom of God and the House of

1496
01:26:30,840 --> 01:26:35,120
Israel on earth.
And this anointing was seen in

1497
01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:41,100
connection to the council of 50.
And I started to write a paper

1498
01:26:41,180 --> 01:26:43,180
kind of detailing this
anointing.

1499
01:26:43,180 --> 01:26:46,540
And and part of it was that we
know we actually have the

1500
01:26:46,540 --> 01:26:50,740
written revelation John Taylor
received to be anointed as

1501
01:26:50,740 --> 01:26:54,460
prophet, precinct, king, seer
and revelator over the church,

1502
01:26:54,460 --> 01:26:56,900
Kingdom and Zion in the House of
Israel on earth.

1503
01:26:59,140 --> 01:27:02,620
We had the revelation and there
was starting to be rumors that

1504
01:27:02,620 --> 01:27:04,660
somebody else was starting to
write a paper on it.

1505
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:10,040
And so I was encouraged by some
friends to to do a presentation

1506
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:13,920
at the Sunstone Symposium on
this paper to kind of give a

1507
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:16,960
bigger picture of you at this,
that this anointing in this

1508
01:27:16,960 --> 01:27:20,040
history.
And as I was writing about this

1509
01:27:20,040 --> 01:27:24,080
office in this history, I
realized that to really

1510
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:26,840
understand this prophet, priest
and king over the Kingdom of

1511
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:29,560
God, you got to understand what
Joseph Smith was doing with

1512
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:33,380
trying to make not just himself
with lots of other men, the

1513
01:27:33,500 --> 01:27:36,820
kings and priests in the Kingdom
of God, and to understand what

1514
01:27:36,820 --> 01:27:39,140
he was doing with priests during
the last several years of his

1515
01:27:39,140 --> 01:27:41,220
life.
And so that kind of got the ball

1516
01:27:41,220 --> 01:27:46,620
rolling where I I wrote in 2019
three different pamphlets that

1517
01:27:46,620 --> 01:27:50,860
were kind of on the Nabu priests
of developments and, you know,

1518
01:27:50,860 --> 01:27:54,540
on the priesthood of kings and
priests that Joseph Smith was

1519
01:27:54,580 --> 01:27:57,660
beginning to introduce during
the last several years of his

1520
01:27:57,660 --> 01:27:59,820
life.
And that kind of is how I

1521
01:27:59,820 --> 01:28:03,860
accidentally stumbled into being
a Mormon historian and it's one

1522
01:28:03,860 --> 01:28:07,220
scholar kind of pointed out that
I've kind of become a historian

1523
01:28:07,260 --> 01:28:11,460
of Le Baron priesthood as well.
And you know it's very

1524
01:28:11,460 --> 01:28:13,220
fascinating.
There's there's always more

1525
01:28:13,220 --> 01:28:15,540
things to dig up and discover in
Mormon history.

1526
01:28:15,540 --> 01:28:18,660
I've I've heard people say that
Mormon history is almost unlike

1527
01:28:18,660 --> 01:28:22,900
any other and that there's it's
just so rich with such wide

1528
01:28:22,900 --> 01:28:30,110
variety of views of theological
ideas of you know, rich complex

1529
01:28:30,110 --> 01:28:35,870
history of different things that
went on and and so you know this

1530
01:28:35,870 --> 01:28:39,430
kind of is a good way to
transition into discussing Le

1531
01:28:39,430 --> 01:28:43,430
Baronism and Ross Le Baronism in
the Church of the First Born.

1532
01:28:43,430 --> 01:28:47,470
Because I really feel like if
you don't understand what Joseph

1533
01:28:47,470 --> 01:28:51,070
Smith was teaching and doing
about priesthood in Nauvoo,

1534
01:28:51,070 --> 01:28:54,110
there's no way you can really
understand the claims of

1535
01:28:54,110 --> 01:28:57,860
priesthood from Benjamin F
Johnson being passed to the the

1536
01:28:57,860 --> 01:29:02,140
Lebaron family.
So I do, you know, I I think

1537
01:29:02,300 --> 01:29:06,140
fundamentalism has kind of
struggled over the years with

1538
01:29:06,180 --> 01:29:09,340
understanding what was going on
with priesthood, with Joseph

1539
01:29:09,340 --> 01:29:12,420
Smith's lifetime.
And, you know, there's been kind

1540
01:29:12,420 --> 01:29:15,420
of a rocky priesthood foundation
where there's, there's almost

1541
01:29:15,420 --> 01:29:18,700
been trying to figure out what
was going on.

1542
01:29:18,700 --> 01:29:22,860
Like it wasn't handed to them on
a silver platter that these are,

1543
01:29:22,940 --> 01:29:26,380
you know, the things that you
know are the priesthood

1544
01:29:26,380 --> 01:29:30,020
doctrines that there's been, you
know, having to try to figure it

1545
01:29:30,020 --> 01:29:32,060
out.
And and I do think that there's

1546
01:29:32,060 --> 01:29:35,700
been, you know, different ideas
that have been entertained over

1547
01:29:35,700 --> 01:29:39,300
the years and different things
that have come down that were

1548
01:29:39,300 --> 01:29:42,980
well-intentioned but did not
necessarily have all of the

1549
01:29:42,980 --> 01:29:45,380
checks and balances and a
complete understanding of

1550
01:29:45,380 --> 01:29:48,900
doctrine that Joseph Smith was
trying to introduce with these

1551
01:29:48,900 --> 01:29:52,060
higher priesthood concepts.
Like Joseph Smith, you know,

1552
01:29:52,380 --> 01:29:54,620
some people would say like
there's a priesthood council.

1553
01:29:54,980 --> 01:29:58,300
The only the only answers to God
doesn't really answer to the

1554
01:29:58,300 --> 01:30:02,300
people and that kind of can, you
know, even though that's

1555
01:30:02,300 --> 01:30:05,220
well-intentioned.
Joseph Smith and all of his

1556
01:30:05,220 --> 01:30:09,220
higher priesthood teachings
never thought that the highest

1557
01:30:09,220 --> 01:30:13,340
priesthood would be kind of a
dictatorship that didn't, you

1558
01:30:13,340 --> 01:30:16,980
know, that would not care about
what the people, you know, you

1559
01:30:16,980 --> 01:30:20,100
know, the voice of the people.
You know, it was always, Joseph

1560
01:30:20,100 --> 01:30:22,020
was always trying to work for a
harmony.

1561
01:30:22,260 --> 01:30:26,160
Even in you know, the anointed
corpsman Abu, he was trying to

1562
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:29,520
have everyone be in harmony.
And in the Council of 50 that I

1563
01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:32,480
I think that was the big part of
why Joseph wanted everything to

1564
01:30:32,480 --> 01:30:37,320
be unanimously agreed was he was
emphasizing the need of of

1565
01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:41,440
working together and that
oneness that's not a tyrannical

1566
01:30:41,440 --> 01:30:46,200
pecking order but that people
you know, you know everyone

1567
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:49,760
bringing forth Joseph Smith
actually said I want everyone in

1568
01:30:49,760 --> 01:30:53,730
this council to bring the lights
from the all the droppings from

1569
01:30:53,730 --> 01:30:57,970
heaven that they can receive and
then if necessary I will enlarge

1570
01:30:57,970 --> 01:31:01,170
on it is what Joseph Smith said.
He wasn't trying to put everyone

1571
01:31:01,170 --> 01:31:04,530
down and and and lift himself up
and above everyone else.

1572
01:31:04,530 --> 01:31:07,570
He was trying to make everyone
else be profits as well, if that

1573
01:31:07,570 --> 01:31:13,130
makes sense.
Right, so the the the priest in

1574
01:31:13,130 --> 01:31:16,880
above the church, Joseph.
There's plenty of statements

1575
01:31:16,880 --> 01:31:19,520
that demonstrate there there
that Joseph was introducing

1576
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:21,720
priesthood above the church in
the Naubu period.

1577
01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:24,160
One of my favorite is Heber C
Kimball said.

1578
01:31:24,200 --> 01:31:28,120
I'm still an apostle and I never
received any greater authority

1579
01:31:28,120 --> 01:31:31,240
than I received directly under
the hands of Joseph Smith a

1580
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:34,400
short time previous to his death
in connection with Brother

1581
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:37,680
Brigham Young and Lord Richards.
He placed power into our hands

1582
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:40,960
and all the keys and authority
he received from God.

1583
01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:45,960
So he says he Percy Kimball was
ordained an apostle in 1835 but

1584
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:48,760
he says it wasn't until a short
time prior to Joseph Smith's

1585
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:51,720
death that he received the
greatest authority that he

1586
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:56,240
received from Joseph Smith and
he in during the trial of Sidney

1587
01:31:56,240 --> 01:32:00,040
Rigdon in September 1844 he
talks about this authority.

1588
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:03,760
He said he Sidney Rigdon was not
in the council pertaining to the

1589
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:06,840
high priesthood until just
before he started to Pittsburgh.

1590
01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:10,940
Brother brought WW Phelps was
the means of bringing him in.

1591
01:32:11,140 --> 01:32:13,460
But he has not got the same
authority as others.

1592
01:32:13,700 --> 01:32:16,900
There are more than 30 men who
have got higher authority than

1593
01:32:16,900 --> 01:32:20,100
he has, then he goes on.
He says there are men here,

1594
01:32:20,100 --> 01:32:23,100
brethren who have got authority
but we don't want to mention

1595
01:32:23,100 --> 01:32:25,740
their names for the enemy will
try to kill them.

1596
01:32:26,340 --> 01:32:30,980
So Bruce R Mcconkey would say
anyone who claims that

1597
01:32:31,020 --> 01:32:34,460
priesthood could be preserved
through a secret line is

1598
01:32:34,900 --> 01:32:37,780
teaching a false doctrine and is
incorrect.

1599
01:32:38,360 --> 01:32:42,320
But the reality is the your
Hebrew C Kimball was saying that

1600
01:32:42,440 --> 01:32:44,880
the highest authority was a
secret authority.

1601
01:32:45,240 --> 01:32:47,720
And he said there are men who
have got authority, but we don't

1602
01:32:47,720 --> 01:32:51,040
want to mention their names.
For the enemy will try to kill

1603
01:32:51,040 --> 01:32:53,680
them.
And that fits along with what

1604
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:57,480
they're Young said about how we,
Joseph, gave us the fullness of

1605
01:32:57,480 --> 01:32:59,160
the priesthood.
But we, you know, and they're

1606
01:32:59,160 --> 01:33:01,560
going to try to take our lives
just as they took Joseph.

1607
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:04,320
But we will ordain others and
give them the fullness of the

1608
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:07,160
priesthood so that it can be
perpetuated.

1609
01:33:07,800 --> 01:33:11,680
So Joseph in one of his sermons
near the end of his life on

1610
01:33:12,560 --> 01:33:17,280
August 27th, 1843 talks about
this priesthood and he says the

1611
01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:19,680
2nd priesthood is patriarchal
authority.

1612
01:33:19,680 --> 01:33:22,440
Go to and finish the temple and
God will fill it with our and

1613
01:33:22,440 --> 01:33:24,520
you will receive more knowledge
about this priesthood.

1614
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:29,480
And then he said this priesthood
was the greatest priesthood yet

1615
01:33:29,480 --> 01:33:33,880
experience in this church.
And so this patriarchal priest

1616
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:36,120
said, you know, you got to ask,
well, what's this authority?

1617
01:33:36,120 --> 01:33:39,920
And when was it conferred?
It was according to the sources

1618
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:43,960
we have, it was conferred
secretly first on May 4th and

1619
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:48,240
5th 1842.
And that's the body that came to

1620
01:33:48,240 --> 01:33:50,680
be known as the Anointed Quorum
or the Holy Order.

1621
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:55,800
And Heber George Miller who
wasn't a follower of Brigham

1622
01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:58,450
Young but wrote an account of
this said that the apostles

1623
01:33:58,450 --> 01:34:01,290
returned from England.
Joseph Washington anointed as

1624
01:34:01,290 --> 01:34:03,690
kings and priests to God and
over the House of Israel.

1625
01:34:04,050 --> 01:34:06,250
Then he lists all the men who
were given this authority that

1626
01:34:06,250 --> 01:34:09,130
he says and they're and and
conferred on us.

1627
01:34:09,130 --> 01:34:14,250
Patriarchal priest said So
Willard Richards wrote an

1628
01:34:14,250 --> 01:34:17,010
account of this meeting as well
in the history of the church and

1629
01:34:17,010 --> 01:34:20,330
it's founded teachings the
Prophet Joseph Smith page 237.

1630
01:34:20,650 --> 01:34:23,850
And what's interesting is Joseph
Fielding Smith when he compiled

1631
01:34:23,850 --> 01:34:27,510
teachings of the prophet, Joseph
Smith put a heading there that

1632
01:34:27,510 --> 01:34:30,430
says highest order of priesthood
revealed.

1633
01:34:30,990 --> 01:34:33,430
And then it goes on and it says
that Joseph was giving washings

1634
01:34:33,430 --> 01:34:36,430
and anointings, endowments and
communicating keys pertain to

1635
01:34:36,430 --> 01:34:40,070
the ironic priesthood and so on
to the highest order of the

1636
01:34:40,070 --> 01:34:43,630
Melchezic priesthood.
And so when you look at it, the

1637
01:34:43,630 --> 01:34:46,310
highest order and fullness of
the Melchezic priesthood,

1638
01:34:46,310 --> 01:34:49,350
according to Joseph Smith's
teachings, was to be a king and

1639
01:34:49,350 --> 01:34:52,740
a priest.
And you know, there's numerous

1640
01:34:52,740 --> 01:34:55,220
statements on this.
You know, the most famous one is

1641
01:34:55,260 --> 01:34:59,420
by Brigham Young, where he said
those who have come in here and

1642
01:34:59,420 --> 01:35:01,780
received their washing and
anointing will be ordained kings

1643
01:35:01,780 --> 01:35:03,940
of priests and will then have
received the fullness of the

1644
01:35:03,940 --> 01:35:06,340
priesthood.
All that can be given on earth,

1645
01:35:06,580 --> 01:35:10,060
where Brother Joseph said he'd
given us all that could be given

1646
01:35:10,060 --> 01:35:14,460
to man on the earth.
And so most people, when they

1647
01:35:14,460 --> 01:35:19,050
think about the authority of
being a king and a priest, they

1648
01:35:19,050 --> 01:35:23,330
think that Joseph Smith was kind
of intending for 2nd anointings

1649
01:35:23,370 --> 01:35:26,690
to be passed out to everyone.
I mean, at least not what the

1650
01:35:26,690 --> 01:35:29,250
church does today, where the
church under Hebrew Day grant

1651
01:35:29,250 --> 01:35:32,890
practically discontinued the 2nd
anointing, right.

1652
01:35:32,930 --> 01:35:35,970
You know, he basically
completely ceased having the

1653
01:35:35,970 --> 01:35:39,010
second anointing performed in
contrast to Joseph Smith who

1654
01:35:39,010 --> 01:35:42,730
taught that it was an essential
ordinance for exaltation.

1655
01:35:43,370 --> 01:35:48,440
So I do think that Joseph
believed that everyone was who

1656
01:35:48,680 --> 01:35:52,480
eventually, when they proved
faithful in the gospel, that the

1657
01:35:52,480 --> 01:35:55,120
time would eventually come that
everyone would receive their

1658
01:35:55,120 --> 01:35:58,560
second anointing if they've
lived faithful to all the laws

1659
01:35:58,560 --> 01:36:00,120
and the principles of the
gospel.

1660
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:03,160
You know, and but I do think,
but I don't think that's what

1661
01:36:03,160 --> 01:36:05,800
Joseph Smith meant when he said
that he envisioned the whole

1662
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:09,120
church being a Kingdom of kings
and priests.

1663
01:36:09,480 --> 01:36:13,520
I I do think that Joseph
originally in the Nauvoo period

1664
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:17,710
was actually anointing men as
kings and priests in the first

1665
01:36:17,710 --> 01:36:20,870
anointing, contrary to, you
know, most people today, as the

1666
01:36:21,030 --> 01:36:23,510
as the first anointing was
passed down in early Utah, you

1667
01:36:23,510 --> 01:36:26,030
were only anointed that you may
eventually become a king and a

1668
01:36:26,030 --> 01:36:28,750
priest.
But according to that statement

1669
01:36:28,750 --> 01:36:32,590
by George Miller and according
to other statements about the

1670
01:36:32,710 --> 01:36:35,630
the endowment in Joseph Smith's
lifetime, he was actually making

1671
01:36:35,870 --> 01:36:38,590
men, kings and priests in the
first anointing so that they

1672
01:36:38,590 --> 01:36:42,350
would have that authority even
before they've, you know, proven

1673
01:36:42,350 --> 01:36:45,350
themselves faithful to receive
the 2nd anointing.

1674
01:36:46,770 --> 01:36:52,850
You know, there's a statement by
William Smith saying that saying

1675
01:36:52,850 --> 01:36:56,530
that he was present with Joseph
with the last council.

1676
01:36:56,890 --> 01:36:58,970
William Smith didn't have a
second annoying, but he wrote

1677
01:36:58,970 --> 01:37:01,890
that he was taken into the
highest crease of lodge, was

1678
01:37:01,890 --> 01:37:04,930
watched, anointed, and clad with
the robes of pure white, and

1679
01:37:04,930 --> 01:37:07,690
ordained to be precinct king,
and invested with all the power

1680
01:37:07,690 --> 01:37:09,570
that any man on earth ever did
possess.

1681
01:37:09,890 --> 01:37:13,400
Power entitling me to preach the
gospel, to bind up the Kingdom

1682
01:37:13,400 --> 01:37:15,680
of God, the earth among all the
nations, the people of every

1683
01:37:15,680 --> 01:37:18,000
time.
And and he said that this

1684
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:20,080
authority was conferred on all
the 12.

1685
01:37:20,080 --> 01:37:23,280
This ceiling power was conferred
on all the 12, and not just on

1686
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:30,440
one man, if that makes sense.
And so in the So when I point

1687
01:37:30,440 --> 01:37:33,480
this historical fact out to
people, people ask, well, when

1688
01:37:33,480 --> 01:37:37,890
did when did the the endowment
change so that people were only

1689
01:37:37,890 --> 01:37:40,090
anointed that they may
eventually become a king and a

1690
01:37:40,090 --> 01:37:43,250
priest, and people only really
got the authority of that when

1691
01:37:43,250 --> 01:37:46,330
they get their second anointing.
I would say that in the Navu

1692
01:37:46,330 --> 01:37:50,570
temple they were actually doing
endowments both ways.

1693
01:37:50,570 --> 01:37:55,290
In the Navu for those who they
knew were good men, who you

1694
01:37:55,690 --> 01:37:58,210
know, who were good men and
worthy to be initiated into this

1695
01:37:58,210 --> 01:38:01,810
authority they gave them, you
know, they made them kings and

1696
01:38:01,810 --> 01:38:05,650
priests in their endowments.
But for the majority of the

1697
01:38:05,650 --> 01:38:08,650
Saints they only anointed them
that they may eventually become

1698
01:38:08,650 --> 01:38:10,770
such when they they prove
faithful.

1699
01:38:11,210 --> 01:38:15,250
So William Clayton, Joseph
Smith's secretary, was one of

1700
01:38:15,250 --> 01:38:19,290
the guys that the apostles
considered to be worthy of being

1701
01:38:19,290 --> 01:38:21,930
a king and a priest.
And this is a month before they

1702
01:38:21,930 --> 01:38:23,570
did second anointings in the
Nabu temple.

1703
01:38:23,570 --> 01:38:27,330
He wrote that President Young
This is in his journal on

1704
01:38:27,450 --> 01:38:31,650
December 11th, 1845, when they
just start doing ordinances in

1705
01:38:31,650 --> 01:38:34,010
the Nabu temple.
He says President Young said I

1706
01:38:34,010 --> 01:38:36,050
could go and fetch my wife if I
would mind to.

1707
01:38:36,290 --> 01:38:39,210
I immediately went down and
returned with her at 1:00 and

1708
01:38:39,210 --> 01:38:42,450
then went into the preparation
room as it was washed by Elder

1709
01:38:42,450 --> 01:38:44,210
Heber C Kimball and George A
Smith.

1710
01:38:44,450 --> 01:38:47,850
And then anointed a priest in
the King unto the Most High God

1711
01:38:47,850 --> 01:38:51,290
by President Young and a mass
alignment and pronounced clean

1712
01:38:51,290 --> 01:38:53,130
from the blood of this
generation.

1713
01:38:53,810 --> 01:38:59,450
So they did start doing second
anointings until January 6th of

1714
01:38:59,450 --> 01:39:02,160
1846.
So this was about a month before

1715
01:39:02,160 --> 01:39:05,200
any second anointings were
performed, and Heber C Kimball

1716
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:09,080
actually makes a comment in the
to the newly endowed people,

1717
01:39:09,080 --> 01:39:12,360
basically admitting that they
were doing it both ways, he

1718
01:39:12,360 --> 01:39:14,640
said.
You have been pronounced clean,

1719
01:39:14,640 --> 01:39:16,800
but were you pronounced clean
from the blood of this

1720
01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:19,280
generation?
No, not all of you.

1721
01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:21,720
Only some few who have deserved
it.

1722
01:39:22,160 --> 01:39:26,120
If we have made you clean every
wit, now go to work and make

1723
01:39:26,160 --> 01:39:28,680
others clean.
So he's basically saying if we

1724
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:31,760
have given you the, you know,
the special first anointing,

1725
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:34,440
giving you the authority of a
king and a priest and

1726
01:39:34,440 --> 01:39:36,960
pronouncing you clean from the
blood of this generation, you

1727
01:39:36,960 --> 01:39:39,120
should go to work and be
involved with the temple and

1728
01:39:39,120 --> 01:39:42,800
administering these ordinances
to others, if that makes sense.

1729
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:48,720
So this is how the Saints were
receiving this new order of

1730
01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:51,760
priesthood above the church.
But the way they were being

1731
01:39:51,760 --> 01:39:55,960
organized into it was through
the principle of the law of

1732
01:39:55,960 --> 01:39:58,880
adoption, where all the Saints
were being grafted into this

1733
01:39:58,880 --> 01:40:01,120
great, you know, extended
family.

1734
01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:04,240
Joseph Smith actually kind of
mentioned this to the Relief

1735
01:40:04,240 --> 01:40:07,760
Society when he said the Church
is not fully organized in its

1736
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:11,480
proper order and cannot be until
the temple is completed.

1737
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:13,400
Where places will be provided
for.

1738
01:40:13,400 --> 01:40:17,040
The administration of the
ordinances of the priesthood I

1739
01:40:17,040 --> 01:40:20,280
calculate to organize the Church
in its proper order.

1740
01:40:20,770 --> 01:40:23,050
As soon as the temple is
completed.

1741
01:40:23,370 --> 01:40:25,130
So he's basically saying that
there was going to be a

1742
01:40:25,130 --> 01:40:29,930
fundamental shift in the
organization of the church

1743
01:40:29,930 --> 01:40:33,170
through the recipiation of, you
know, the of the temple

1744
01:40:33,170 --> 01:40:36,490
ordinances.
And I believe that that was a

1745
01:40:36,650 --> 01:40:39,690
very direct reference to that.
Joseph envisioned that the law

1746
01:40:39,690 --> 01:40:43,450
of adoption would be the means
by which the the Saints would be

1747
01:40:43,450 --> 01:40:47,850
reorganized into more of a
family order rather than just a

1748
01:40:47,850 --> 01:40:53,470
a ward and stake organization.
And so John D Lee wrote in his

1749
01:40:53,510 --> 01:40:58,750
book about how about how in the
winter of 1845 they began the

1750
01:40:58,750 --> 01:41:02,030
spirit of allied ship, began
being taught to the families as

1751
01:41:02,030 --> 01:41:06,510
a foundation to this new order
of celestial marriage as well as

1752
01:41:06,510 --> 01:41:09,510
the law of adoption.
He said, quote many families

1753
01:41:09,510 --> 01:41:12,350
entering into covenant with each
other, all persons were required

1754
01:41:12,350 --> 01:41:14,590
to be adopted to some of the
leading men of the church.

1755
01:41:14,870 --> 01:41:17,670
In this, however, they had the
right of choice, forming a link

1756
01:41:17,790 --> 01:41:21,420
of the priesthood back to the
Father Adam and so on to the

1757
01:41:21,420 --> 01:41:24,900
second coming of the Messiah.
So I think that's an interesting

1758
01:41:24,900 --> 01:41:27,940
Adam God statement, he says the
linking the chain of the

1759
01:41:27,940 --> 01:41:30,860
priesthood back to the Father
Adam, you know.

1760
01:41:31,500 --> 01:41:37,980
And in the in the NABU temple,
Heber C Kimble explained that

1761
01:41:37,980 --> 01:41:41,700
the Saints were were were
getting reorganized through

1762
01:41:41,700 --> 01:41:47,020
these ordinances.
Speaking to a group of newly

1763
01:41:47,020 --> 01:41:50,700
endowed Saints.
He he he laid out that you're

1764
01:41:50,700 --> 01:41:55,500
coming to a place where your
former covenants have no account

1765
01:41:55,500 --> 01:41:58,180
and you're here entering a a new
covenant.

1766
01:42:00,220 --> 01:42:04,700
And this was what they really
emphasized when they were coming

1767
01:42:04,700 --> 01:42:07,180
on the trek.
W was that they were that

1768
01:42:07,300 --> 01:42:11,140
they're really moving the Saints
into more of a family capacity

1769
01:42:11,140 --> 01:42:14,820
instead of a church capacity.
And one thing that that really

1770
01:42:14,820 --> 01:42:18,580
kind of stood out to me was that
initially they're they're and

1771
01:42:18,580 --> 01:42:22,540
this is what DNC136 about the
Saints being organized into

1772
01:42:22,540 --> 01:42:25,620
companies was originally
interpreted as being, it's about

1773
01:42:25,700 --> 01:42:29,140
organizing the Saints into
family companies is what the

1774
01:42:29,140 --> 01:42:32,580
original context of it was.
And so that's how they they came

1775
01:42:32,580 --> 01:42:34,940
to Utah.
But then when they came to Utah,

1776
01:42:34,940 --> 01:42:38,380
they're start, they're start to
be kind of reservations about

1777
01:42:38,620 --> 01:42:41,300
you know whether the Saints were
really worthy for the

1778
01:42:41,300 --> 01:42:43,740
full-fledged family
organization.

1779
01:42:44,320 --> 01:42:46,960
And he received Kimball, sat
down with his adopted family and

1780
01:42:46,960 --> 01:42:50,000
said if we're counseled to
continue to work in a family

1781
01:42:50,000 --> 01:42:51,720
capacity, we should be willing
to do that.

1782
01:42:52,000 --> 01:42:55,240
And if we're counseled to work
in a church capacity, we should

1783
01:42:55,240 --> 01:42:59,520
be equally willing to do that.
So there was kind of this up in

1784
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:04,120
the air idea of how things were
going to settle down in early

1785
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:09,080
Utah.
But initially when they start

1786
01:43:09,080 --> 01:43:13,080
organizing the the city block of
Salt Lake City, it was organized

1787
01:43:13,080 --> 01:43:15,520
and according to a kind of a
family order.

1788
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:17,960
And there was like a group of
blocks that were going to be for

1789
01:43:17,960 --> 01:43:21,320
the Heber C Kimball family, a
group of blocks were Brigham

1790
01:43:21,320 --> 01:43:24,640
Young and his adopted family.
And so they kind of were

1791
01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:28,120
breaking up the city according
to kind of the law of adoption

1792
01:43:28,120 --> 01:43:32,880
as kind of a social principle of
how the Saints were being

1793
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:35,720
organized.
But it seems that there were

1794
01:43:35,840 --> 01:43:40,600
issues that that there was some
concerns over people abusing the

1795
01:43:40,600 --> 01:43:44,510
principles like there were men
who were abusing plural

1796
01:43:44,510 --> 01:43:49,150
marriage, obviously like Brigham
Young actually said that Hebercy

1797
01:43:49,150 --> 01:43:51,390
Kimball, Brigham Young were
really upset about a situation

1798
01:43:51,390 --> 01:43:55,670
where a man unauthorized went
and took a plural wife in such a

1799
01:43:55,670 --> 01:44:00,350
way that he completely lost his
first wife.

1800
01:44:00,350 --> 01:44:04,830
His first wife left him over the
way he, he went about, you know,

1801
01:44:04,830 --> 01:44:08,230
trying to enter into plural
marriage kind of on the sly with

1802
01:44:08,230 --> 01:44:11,870
this other woman with without
having proper sanction and

1803
01:44:11,870 --> 01:44:14,150
authority.
And they they were, they were,

1804
01:44:14,270 --> 01:44:16,430
they were upset about that.
They're also upset about how

1805
01:44:16,790 --> 01:44:21,630
adoption was kind of, but there
was concerns about people kind

1806
01:44:21,630 --> 01:44:27,470
of having infighting over it and
and kind of kind of adoptive

1807
01:44:27,790 --> 01:44:31,030
fathers and adoptive sons not
kind of clashing and not really

1808
01:44:31,030 --> 01:44:33,830
getting along.
And so it seems that adoption,

1809
01:44:35,270 --> 01:44:38,070
you know eventually kind of
unfortunately fell on the back

1810
01:44:38,070 --> 01:44:42,900
burner and Brigham Young even
kind of admitted that later on

1811
01:44:43,060 --> 01:44:49,820
in May of 1860.
He he talks about he he kind of

1812
01:44:49,820 --> 01:44:51,460
talked about the law of
adoption.

1813
01:44:51,620 --> 01:45:04,980
Excuse me the the the statement
was let's see in April of 1862

1814
01:45:04,980 --> 01:45:08,440
excuse me he he kind of said, I
will refer to a principle that

1815
01:45:08,440 --> 01:45:10,080
has not been named by me for
years.

1816
01:45:10,080 --> 01:45:13,080
With the introduction of the
priests upon the earth was also

1817
01:45:13,080 --> 01:45:15,800
introduced the ceiling ordinance
that the chain of the priesthood

1818
01:45:15,800 --> 01:45:19,120
from Adam to the last generation
might be united in one unbroken

1819
01:45:19,120 --> 01:45:21,040
continuance.
It is the same power and the

1820
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:24,720
same keys that Elijah held and
was the X be exercised in the

1821
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:26,680
last days.
By this power, men will be

1822
01:45:26,680 --> 01:45:28,320
sealed.
The men back to Adam, completing

1823
01:45:28,320 --> 01:45:30,200
and making perfect the chain of
the priesthood.

1824
01:45:30,360 --> 01:45:33,300
From his day to the winding up
scene, I've known men that I

1825
01:45:33,300 --> 01:45:35,780
positively think would
fellowship the devil if they

1826
01:45:35,780 --> 01:45:37,140
would agree to be sealed to
them.

1827
01:45:37,420 --> 01:45:39,820
Oh, be sealed to me, brother.
I care not what you do.

1828
01:45:39,820 --> 01:45:43,540
If you'll only be sealed to me.
Now, this is not so much

1829
01:45:43,540 --> 01:45:46,300
weakness as it is selfishness.
It is a great and glorious

1830
01:45:46,300 --> 01:45:47,900
doctrine.
But the reason I've not preached

1831
01:45:47,900 --> 01:45:50,140
in the midst of those people is
I cannot do it without turning

1832
01:45:50,140 --> 01:45:53,020
so many of them to the devil.
Some would go to hell for the

1833
01:45:53,020 --> 01:45:54,860
sake of getting the devil sealed
to them.

1834
01:45:55,260 --> 01:45:58,300
I've had visions and revelations
instructing me how to organize

1835
01:45:58,300 --> 01:46:00,580
those people so they can live
like the family of heaven.

1836
01:46:00,940 --> 01:46:03,100
So I cannot do it.
While so much selflessness and

1837
01:46:03,100 --> 01:46:06,780
wickedness reigns in the elders
of Israel, many would make the

1838
01:46:06,780 --> 01:46:08,980
greatest blessings to curse them
as they do now.

1839
01:46:08,980 --> 01:46:11,660
The plurality of wives, the
abuse of that principle will

1840
01:46:11,660 --> 01:46:14,140
send thousands to hell.
There are many great and

1841
01:46:14,140 --> 01:46:16,140
glorious privileges for the
people which they're not

1842
01:46:16,140 --> 01:46:18,740
prepared to receive.
How long it will be before

1843
01:46:18,740 --> 01:46:21,180
they're prepared to enjoy the
blessings God has in store for

1844
01:46:21,180 --> 01:46:22,060
them.
I know not.

1845
01:46:22,260 --> 01:46:25,020
He has not been revealed to me.
I know the Lord wants to poor

1846
01:46:25,020 --> 01:46:27,300
blessings upon those people, but
worried to do so in their

1847
01:46:27,300 --> 01:46:30,100
present ignorance they would not
know what to do with them.

1848
01:46:30,450 --> 01:46:33,250
They can only receive a very
little and that must be

1849
01:46:33,250 --> 01:46:36,570
administered to them in great
care.

1850
01:46:37,690 --> 01:46:40,810
So that's a you know and you
imagine how much more they had

1851
01:46:40,810 --> 01:46:44,090
back then of the gospel during
the time that the Journal of

1852
01:46:44,090 --> 01:46:47,090
Discourses are being preached.
And yet Brigham Young is saying,

1853
01:46:47,090 --> 01:46:52,010
I'm only giving you a tiny bit
of the big picture of, you know

1854
01:46:52,010 --> 01:46:55,850
what what the, what God would
ideally want us to be organized

1855
01:46:55,850 --> 01:46:59,410
like.
So the Saints were all to be

1856
01:46:59,410 --> 01:47:02,410
grafted back into the law of
adoption, back to the men who

1857
01:47:02,410 --> 01:47:06,330
were kind of the leaders of this
new organization of the Kingdom

1858
01:47:06,330 --> 01:47:08,490
of God.
And so, you know, there were

1859
01:47:08,570 --> 01:47:11,930
different members of the council
of 50 who were getting men

1860
01:47:12,250 --> 01:47:15,330
sealed and adopted to them.
And so we already talked about

1861
01:47:15,490 --> 01:47:18,930
other resources about the
Council of 50 being kind of a

1862
01:47:19,330 --> 01:47:23,700
presiding Priested body over
this organization and kind of

1863
01:47:23,700 --> 01:47:28,060
presiding over the Council of 50
was this office of the Prophet

1864
01:47:28,060 --> 01:47:31,820
precinct king that I had
mentioned I I'd given a paper on

1865
01:47:31,820 --> 01:47:35,620
and that I was very interested
in John Taylor being anointed to

1866
01:47:35,620 --> 01:47:39,620
this one man office.
So we've known about this office

1867
01:47:39,620 --> 01:47:43,100
for a long time, particularly
because George Buchanan told his

1868
01:47:43,100 --> 01:47:47,820
son in 1895 about John Taylor
being anointed to it, he said.

1869
01:47:48,310 --> 01:47:51,710
He said that Moses that on on
December 2nd, 1895.

1870
01:47:51,710 --> 01:47:54,790
He said Moses Thatcher's drawing
away from the Brethren commenced

1871
01:47:54,790 --> 01:47:56,710
as far as his knowledge
concerned at the time when the

1872
01:47:56,710 --> 01:48:00,470
Council of 50 met the old City
Hall and Moses opposed the the

1873
01:48:00,590 --> 01:48:04,710
the proposition to anoint John
Taylor as prophet precinct king

1874
01:48:05,070 --> 01:48:07,790
and Moses's opposition prevailed
at that time.

1875
01:48:08,590 --> 01:48:12,470
So Can you imagine, as great of
a man as John Taylor was,

1876
01:48:12,550 --> 01:48:17,230
apparently they were not wanting
to have them be sustained as the

1877
01:48:17,230 --> 01:48:19,870
prophet, priest and king over
the council of 50.

1878
01:48:20,190 --> 01:48:23,590
For me that's almost, you know,
unimaginable.

1879
01:48:23,750 --> 01:48:27,030
And I just really wish that I
could eventually read those

1880
01:48:27,030 --> 01:48:30,230
minutes to hear what they were
saying in those discussions.

1881
01:48:30,710 --> 01:48:35,270
But anyhow, so the council of
50, you know, this this motion

1882
01:48:35,270 --> 01:48:38,630
to to sustain him apparently was
rejected at one time.

1883
01:48:38,950 --> 01:48:42,410
But interestingly, John Taylor
received a revelation that he

1884
01:48:42,410 --> 01:48:45,170
still needed to be anointed to
this office.

1885
01:48:45,170 --> 01:48:48,330
Just as Joseph Smith and then
later Brigham Young were also

1886
01:48:48,330 --> 01:48:52,890
anointed to the same office in
1884.

1887
01:48:53,050 --> 01:48:54,650
He mentions this to George
Cuchan.

1888
01:48:54,650 --> 01:48:56,530
George Cuchan writes about it in
his journal.

1889
01:48:56,890 --> 01:48:59,130
He said, I had a very
interesting conversation with

1890
01:48:59,130 --> 01:49:02,050
President Taylor.
Upon principle and great things

1891
01:49:02,050 --> 01:49:04,930
the Lord has revealed, the Lord
revealed him that was necessary

1892
01:49:04,930 --> 01:49:07,650
for him to be ordained a king
over the House of Israel, as

1893
01:49:07,650 --> 01:49:10,430
were Joseph and Brigham.
He said that he assisted in the

1894
01:49:10,430 --> 01:49:14,070
ordination of Joseph.
He and he shrank from this

1895
01:49:14,070 --> 01:49:16,670
priest of responsibility,
because it was of too much

1896
01:49:16,670 --> 01:49:19,790
significance and glory.
But the Lord had said to him

1897
01:49:19,790 --> 01:49:21,670
that the ordinance needed to be
done.

1898
01:49:22,030 --> 01:49:24,630
I responded that I knew Jehovah
had helped him, and it was clear

1899
01:49:24,630 --> 01:49:26,430
to me that he was well
acquainted with him, and he

1900
01:49:26,430 --> 01:49:28,790
blessed his counsels, and
everyone that listened to him

1901
01:49:29,110 --> 01:49:32,590
and the Church and the work of
the Lord was blessed by his hand

1902
01:49:32,590 --> 01:49:35,750
and through his presidency.
So that was in 1884.

1903
01:49:36,190 --> 01:49:40,250
A year later he has another
conversation in February.

1904
01:49:40,810 --> 01:49:45,770
February 2nd and 3rd of 1885 had
a long conversation with

1905
01:49:45,770 --> 01:49:48,090
President Taylor over the
subject of the revelation which

1906
01:49:48,090 --> 01:49:51,530
he had received about his
anointing with oil as a ruler

1907
01:49:51,530 --> 01:49:53,250
over the Kingdom of God here on
earth.

1908
01:49:53,610 --> 01:49:55,650
Extracts were read from the
records of the council

1909
01:49:55,650 --> 01:49:58,650
respecting the actions of the
Council and the cases of

1910
01:49:58,650 --> 01:50:01,610
Prophets Joseph and Brigham.
They were received by the

1911
01:50:01,610 --> 01:50:03,850
council of the Kingdom as
prophets here and revelator and

1912
01:50:03,850 --> 01:50:05,840
king.
President Taylor was commanded

1913
01:50:05,840 --> 01:50:08,640
by the Lord to do this thing,
but he had neglected to do it

1914
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:11,280
and had been condemned for his
negligence.

1915
01:50:11,480 --> 01:50:13,200
He asked me my feelings about
the subject.

1916
01:50:13,200 --> 01:50:15,200
I told him I was in full accord
with him.

1917
01:50:15,680 --> 01:50:18,880
In fact, I proposed it myself
soon after President Young's

1918
01:50:18,880 --> 01:50:21,200
death to the council.
I thought the business should

1919
01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:23,720
have been attended to as soon as
convenient.

1920
01:50:24,200 --> 01:50:26,560
He told me that he wanted to be
mouth with such as the 12

1921
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:29,880
fossils as we're here to lay on
hands with me and I to anoint

1922
01:50:29,880 --> 01:50:33,150
and ordain him.
So then the next day at 8:00 PM

1923
01:50:33,190 --> 01:50:36,510
in the Endowment house, John
Taylor was anointed, ordained by

1924
01:50:36,510 --> 01:50:39,750
7 apostles and two other members
of the Kingdom.

1925
01:50:40,310 --> 01:50:44,550
And the next morning, George
Buchanan and John Taylor both

1926
01:50:44,550 --> 01:50:46,910
expressed their joy at
fulfilling this revelation.

1927
01:50:47,430 --> 01:50:50,590
And it said, I rejoiced.
And what we had done is a great

1928
01:50:50,590 --> 01:50:52,830
pleasure to do the will of God.
When I rejoiced President Taylor

1929
01:50:52,830 --> 01:50:56,110
this morning, when I rejoined
President Taylor this morning,

1930
01:50:56,110 --> 01:50:59,030
which I did very early, I found
him full of joint satisfaction,

1931
01:50:59,350 --> 01:51:01,790
and the spirit of the Lord
rested upon him.

1932
01:51:02,070 --> 01:51:06,230
So this was like right before
John Taylor goes into exile for

1933
01:51:06,230 --> 01:51:07,990
the last year and a half of his
life.

1934
01:51:08,310 --> 01:51:11,470
He gives one last address to the
Saints and then goes into

1935
01:51:11,470 --> 01:51:13,390
hiding.
But then we know what happens in

1936
01:51:13,390 --> 01:51:16,990
hiding.
He has miraculous outpouring and

1937
01:51:16,990 --> 01:51:18,470
visitations while he's in
hiding.

1938
01:51:18,670 --> 01:51:22,230
He in 1885, even a year before
the 1886 events.

1939
01:51:22,560 --> 01:51:25,040
He has John, he has Joseph
Smith.

1940
01:51:25,040 --> 01:51:28,320
And Jesus Christ appeared to him
in 1885.

1941
01:51:28,920 --> 01:51:32,800
I think Christ appeared to him
first, but then later on Joseph

1942
01:51:32,800 --> 01:51:35,840
Smith appeared to him.
When Joseph the Third was past

1943
01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:39,440
preaching in Utah against
polygamy and Joseph Smith told

1944
01:51:39,440 --> 01:51:43,000
John Taylor that was he was very
saddened to see his son fighting

1945
01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:47,080
against the principles which he
gave his life to establish.

1946
01:51:48,560 --> 01:51:52,890
So while there was this prophet
priest in King like you know

1947
01:51:52,970 --> 01:51:56,610
everything was balanced, like
you know some fundamentals will

1948
01:51:56,610 --> 01:52:01,770
quote that the the use the terms
one manpower or one man rule and

1949
01:52:01,770 --> 01:52:05,370
that's led to some trouble and
fundamentalism obviously but

1950
01:52:05,370 --> 01:52:08,210
those terms are used in the
journal of Discourses.

1951
01:52:08,370 --> 01:52:11,810
But there was always a balance
to it, and Brigham Young would

1952
01:52:11,850 --> 01:52:15,290
would very clearly teach that,
you know, everyone had their

1953
01:52:15,290 --> 01:52:19,050
free agency and needed to get
the Spirit for themselves to,

1954
01:52:19,250 --> 01:52:21,690
you know, know whether the
doctrine he's teaching is true

1955
01:52:21,690 --> 01:52:24,750
or not.
Brigham Young did not teach

1956
01:52:24,750 --> 01:52:30,310
prophetic infallibility.
He overwhelmingly taught that he

1957
01:52:30,310 --> 01:52:33,710
was that he could fall, that
anyone could fall.

1958
01:52:34,830 --> 01:52:37,910
He says how often has it been
taught that if you depend

1959
01:52:38,110 --> 01:52:41,590
entirely upon the voice,
judgment and sing singity of

1960
01:52:41,590 --> 01:52:45,190
others and those appointed to
lead you and neglect the spirit,

1961
01:52:45,190 --> 01:52:47,710
enjoy the spirit of yourselves,
how easily you may be led into

1962
01:52:47,710 --> 01:52:49,910
error and finally be cast into
the left hand.

1963
01:52:50,720 --> 01:52:53,000
And, you know, there's obviously
the most famous one where he

1964
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:57,000
said, what a pity it would be if
this people was led by one man

1965
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:59,760
to destruction.
And so he says everyone needs to

1966
01:52:59,760 --> 01:53:02,760
get the spirit for themselves to
know whether what they're being

1967
01:53:02,760 --> 01:53:06,320
taught is the truth or not.
And he said, you know that

1968
01:53:06,320 --> 01:53:09,120
salvation is an individual
operation.

1969
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:13,280
So you know this one man office
over the priest.

1970
01:53:13,280 --> 01:53:16,200
And you know, Joseph Smith
actually originally intended the

1971
01:53:16,680 --> 01:53:20,420
succession to be the prophet and
the priesthood to go to one of

1972
01:53:20,420 --> 01:53:23,620
his sons.
And what's ironic is Brigham

1973
01:53:23,620 --> 01:53:27,740
Young preached that more than
anyone else, you know, Brigham

1974
01:53:27,740 --> 01:53:30,980
Young actually said that he when
he learned of Joseph's death, he

1975
01:53:30,980 --> 01:53:33,100
didn't think that he was going
to be the next leader of the

1976
01:53:33,100 --> 01:53:33,900
church.
At the time.

1977
01:53:34,300 --> 01:53:37,540
He said when I first heard of
Joseph's death, the first clash

1978
01:53:37,540 --> 01:53:40,300
across across my mind was are
the keys of the priesthood.

1979
01:53:40,300 --> 01:53:44,480
Here I sat leaning in the chair
and Orson Pratt was on the on

1980
01:53:44,480 --> 01:53:47,520
the on the left side of me, and
I thought of it falling upon me

1981
01:53:47,520 --> 01:53:49,480
as the most unlikely thing in
the world.

1982
01:53:49,520 --> 01:53:53,080
I felt it come like a flash of
lightning to my mind and I said,

1983
01:53:53,080 --> 01:53:54,480
the keys of the Kingdom are
here.

1984
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:57,680
I did not think it was with me,
but I felt they were here and I

1985
01:53:57,680 --> 01:54:00,960
knew it was the Lord's business.
And so then Brigham Young often

1986
01:54:01,080 --> 01:54:03,720
would say things like what of
Joseph Smith's family, what of

1987
01:54:03,720 --> 01:54:05,600
his boys?
I prayed from the beginning for

1988
01:54:05,600 --> 01:54:07,280
Sister Emma, for the whole
family.

1989
01:54:07,600 --> 01:54:10,000
There's not a man of the church
says entertain better feelings

1990
01:54:10,000 --> 01:54:12,780
towards them, Joseph said to me.
God will take care of my

1991
01:54:12,780 --> 01:54:15,220
children when I'm taken.
They're in the hands of God and

1992
01:54:15,220 --> 01:54:17,300
when they make their appearance
before this, people full of

1993
01:54:17,300 --> 01:54:19,540
power, there are none but will
say Amen.

1994
01:54:19,540 --> 01:54:21,940
We are ready to receive you the
brother in testify.

1995
01:54:21,940 --> 01:54:24,460
The brother Brigham is brother
Joseph's legal successor.

1996
01:54:24,740 --> 01:54:28,020
You never heard me say so.
I say that I'm a good hand to

1997
01:54:28,020 --> 01:54:29,980
keep the dogs and wolves out of
the flock.

1998
01:54:30,220 --> 01:54:31,980
I don't care a growth who rises
up.

1999
01:54:32,260 --> 01:54:35,170
I don't think anything about
being Joseph's successor does

2000
01:54:35,170 --> 01:54:37,850
nothing that concerns me.
I never asked her, had a feeling

2001
01:54:38,010 --> 01:54:40,410
what kind of great man, oh Lord,
are you going to make me?

2002
01:54:40,570 --> 01:54:44,210
But, Father, what do you require
me, and what can I do to promote

2003
01:54:44,210 --> 01:54:47,410
your Kingdom on the earth and
save myself and my brethren?

2004
01:54:47,690 --> 01:54:51,530
So Brigham was a very humble
guy, and he over and over taught

2005
01:54:51,530 --> 01:54:54,770
that he hoped that Joseph's
youngest son, David, would come

2006
01:54:54,770 --> 01:54:59,010
forward to lead the Saints if he
would repent of his sins and be

2007
01:54:59,010 --> 01:55:01,050
worthy of it.
But he said, I'm, you know, he

2008
01:55:01,050 --> 01:55:04,200
said that in their present
condition, Emma's sons aren't

2009
01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:07,160
worthy to preside.
And so patriarchal succession

2010
01:55:07,160 --> 01:55:09,640
wasn't the end all be all.
Well, the most important thing

2011
01:55:09,640 --> 01:55:13,520
was having a righteous, worthy
man true to the principles that

2012
01:55:13,520 --> 01:55:16,680
Joseph Smith restored to be the
head of the Kingdom of God.

2013
01:55:17,080 --> 01:55:20,040
And so you know, Brigham Young
stood in Joseph's shoes and John

2014
01:55:20,040 --> 01:55:22,920
Taylor stood in Joseph's shoes
as well.

2015
01:55:23,520 --> 01:55:26,560
So, but what's interesting is
Joseph, you know, there was this

2016
01:55:26,560 --> 01:55:30,400
idea of that Joseph Smith's
children or posterity would

2017
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:34,650
eventually come forward to lead
the church and there there was

2018
01:55:34,650 --> 01:55:38,050
this expectation that there
would be a a son of Joseph named

2019
01:55:38,050 --> 01:55:40,890
David that would come forward
and lead the church.

2020
01:55:42,610 --> 01:55:45,090
And so it's interesting is
Joseph Smith, when he introduced

2021
01:55:45,090 --> 01:55:47,810
cruel marriage, also introduced
the leverite marriage, the idea

2022
01:55:48,050 --> 01:55:51,370
that you can raise up child for
somebody who sealed.

2023
01:55:51,410 --> 01:55:54,690
So like if the woman sealed the
Joseph Smith for a charity, her

2024
01:55:54,690 --> 01:55:57,640
posterity would still be
consider Joseph Smith's

2025
01:55:57,640 --> 01:56:00,800
posterity, even though she
sealed for time to someone else,

2026
01:56:00,800 --> 01:56:03,760
if that makes sense.
And so what's interesting is

2027
01:56:03,760 --> 01:56:08,720
like Heber C Kimball.
Heber C Kimball tried to raise

2028
01:56:08,720 --> 01:56:11,960
up sons to Joseph Smith based
off of this principle of

2029
01:56:11,960 --> 01:56:15,600
liberite marriage.
It's particularly with Sarah and

2030
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:18,640
Whitney, who was one of Joseph's
plural wives, who there was a

2031
01:56:18,640 --> 01:56:23,400
July 27th, 1842 revelation for
her to be married to Joseph

2032
01:56:23,400 --> 01:56:24,480
Smith.
And we still have that

2033
01:56:24,480 --> 01:56:29,070
revelation and it says that
through this order David would

2034
01:56:30,110 --> 01:56:32,790
you know that that David would
come forth and be glorified.

2035
01:56:33,110 --> 01:56:35,670
And so in writing on this,
what's interesting is D Michael

2036
01:56:35,670 --> 01:56:38,830
Quinn said Sarah and Whitney and
Hebrew C Kimble did their best

2037
01:56:38,830 --> 01:56:41,590
to fulfill Joseph Smith's
theocratic intentions to have a

2038
01:56:41,590 --> 01:56:44,510
birthright son named David
following the prophet's death.

2039
01:56:44,510 --> 01:56:47,390
Sarah and Mary Kimble for time
in Mormon theology.

2040
01:56:47,390 --> 01:56:49,990
Their children are spiritual
heirs of Joseph Smith, and the

2041
01:56:49,990 --> 01:56:54,700
apostle Kimble named Sarah
Anne's first born son David, but

2042
01:56:54,700 --> 01:56:57,580
who died in infancy.
They named her second son David

2043
01:56:57,580 --> 01:57:00,460
Orson, but he also died young as
well.

2044
01:57:00,620 --> 01:57:04,300
They named their third son David
Hebert, and though this Davidic

2045
01:57:04,300 --> 01:57:07,940
care of Joseph Smith's 1842
revelation lived to manhood, but

2046
01:57:07,940 --> 01:57:11,620
at age 17 was too young to be
among Kimball's three sons, who

2047
01:57:11,620 --> 01:57:17,140
entered into the theocratic
Council of 50 at 8 in 1867.

2048
01:57:17,500 --> 01:57:20,500
Heber C Kimble died the next
year, after which the Council of

2049
01:57:20,500 --> 01:57:23,910
50 did not meet again until 18
and basically says, you know, he

2050
01:57:23,910 --> 01:57:27,430
tried to raise up an heir to
Joseph Smith, but unfortunately

2051
01:57:27,430 --> 01:57:31,230
it it didn't happen.
But what's interesting is Heber

2052
01:57:31,230 --> 01:57:33,030
J.
Grant, interestingly, was

2053
01:57:33,030 --> 01:57:36,230
originally considered a heir of
Joseph Smith.

2054
01:57:36,230 --> 01:57:39,670
And the fact that his mother had
been sealed to Joseph Smith for

2055
01:57:39,990 --> 01:57:43,670
charity and his father, Jedidiah
M Grant, you know, basically

2056
01:57:43,670 --> 01:57:46,910
said that his posterity was
going to be, you know, with her

2057
01:57:46,910 --> 01:57:51,810
was going to be Joseph Smith.
And so, you know, it's it's kind

2058
01:57:51,810 --> 01:57:54,170
of funny to think of Huber J.
Grant that way when we have such

2059
01:57:54,170 --> 01:57:58,930
a, you know, a fondness, you
know, sarcasm there of

2060
01:57:59,210 --> 01:58:02,090
everything that Huber J.
Grant did when he was president

2061
01:58:02,090 --> 01:58:03,690
of the Church.
But when Huber J.

2062
01:58:03,690 --> 01:58:07,610
Grant was called as an apostle,
is the same October 1882

2063
01:58:07,610 --> 01:58:10,570
revelation of Joseph Smith.
I mean if John Taylor saying

2064
01:58:10,730 --> 01:58:13,730
does not meet for men to preside
over my priesthood who do not

2065
01:58:13,730 --> 01:58:17,130
abide my law.
So that that revelation stating

2066
01:58:17,130 --> 01:58:21,290
the necessity of plural marriage
for church leaders was the same

2067
01:58:21,290 --> 01:58:24,530
revelation calling Heber J.
Grant to the Apostleship.

2068
01:58:24,970 --> 01:58:27,090
And Heber J.
Grant basically said he felt

2069
01:58:27,090 --> 01:58:29,530
kind of unworthy for it because
he was the younger guy at the

2070
01:58:29,530 --> 01:58:32,930
time and he told the story that
he actually had a vision.

2071
01:58:33,930 --> 01:58:36,450
He was riding alone and thinking
of my unworthiness when the

2072
01:58:36,450 --> 01:58:39,490
Spirit impressed upon me, just
as though a voice had spoken.

2073
01:58:39,890 --> 01:58:42,850
You were not worthy.
But the Prophet Joseph, to whom

2074
01:58:42,850 --> 01:58:45,670
you will belong in the next
World, and your father have

2075
01:58:45,710 --> 01:58:48,790
interceded for you that you
might be called and now it

2076
01:58:48,790 --> 01:58:51,310
remains for you to prove
yourself worthy.

2077
01:58:51,710 --> 01:58:54,630
And so then there's a statement.
He recalls that Joseph F Smith

2078
01:58:54,630 --> 01:58:58,270
kind of considered him like a
son of Joseph Smith, you know,

2079
01:58:58,270 --> 01:59:02,470
even though he wasn't a
biological son of the prophet.

2080
01:59:03,110 --> 01:59:07,190
So what's interesting is a lot
of these principles you know

2081
01:59:07,190 --> 01:59:09,390
about priesthood.
You know, we we asked the

2082
01:59:09,390 --> 01:59:11,470
question why didn't
fundamentalists have the the

2083
01:59:11,470 --> 01:59:15,750
full doctrine of Joseph Smith
Nabu teachings handed to them on

2084
01:59:15,750 --> 01:59:19,030
a silver platter and they kind
of had to figure things out over

2085
01:59:19,030 --> 01:59:21,270
the years of of early
fundamentalism.

2086
01:59:21,270 --> 01:59:25,350
I would say that there were
reasons that you know the, you

2087
01:59:25,350 --> 01:59:28,590
know that the the knowledge of
the of the higher order of the

2088
01:59:28,590 --> 01:59:30,870
priesthood was lost to the
Saints over time.

2089
01:59:32,150 --> 01:59:34,830
I think the loss of it, the
knowledge of the patriarchal

2090
01:59:34,830 --> 01:59:37,590
priesthood is kind of
self-evident when you start to

2091
01:59:37,590 --> 01:59:41,270
study early Mormon history.
There were no statements about

2092
01:59:41,270 --> 01:59:43,750
patriarchal priesthood, the
patriarchal priesthood of the

2093
01:59:43,750 --> 01:59:46,950
temple after Joseph Smith's
death in early Utah.

2094
01:59:47,350 --> 01:59:50,470
In early Utah, they even stopped
mentioning the fullness of the

2095
01:59:50,470 --> 01:59:55,550
priesthood in public sermons
from 1848 up until 1869.

2096
01:59:55,550 --> 01:59:59,510
So almost 20 years of almost no
mention of the fullness of the

2097
01:59:59,510 --> 02:00:02,710
priesthood and Brigham Young
statement.

2098
02:00:02,960 --> 02:00:05,440
Recalling that Joseph Smith gave
them the fullest of the priest

2099
02:00:05,440 --> 02:00:07,560
and said he'd given them all
that man could be given on the

2100
02:00:07,600 --> 02:00:12,200
earth was actually left out of
the manuscript history of the

2101
02:00:12,200 --> 02:00:14,400
church.
Even though they include they

2102
02:00:14,400 --> 02:00:17,120
included the rest of that
sermon, but they actually left

2103
02:00:17,440 --> 02:00:19,920
that statement out for some
reason.

2104
02:00:20,640 --> 02:00:23,440
And then they also another thing
that this was interesting I I

2105
02:00:23,560 --> 02:00:26,200
caught my eye when I was reading
the book Temples Rising.

2106
02:00:26,440 --> 02:00:29,880
Is that Moses, Elias and
Elijah's restoration of keys in

2107
02:00:29,880 --> 02:00:32,550
the Kirtland Temple?
Even though it was published by

2108
02:00:32,550 --> 02:00:37,510
church leaders in 1853 in the
church news newspapers, they

2109
02:00:37,510 --> 02:00:39,630
never talked about that in early
Utah.

2110
02:00:40,270 --> 02:00:44,790
Not until they said the only
anomalies on this are Orson

2111
02:00:44,790 --> 02:00:50,990
Pratt on once in 1852, once in
1859, are the only times it's

2112
02:00:50,990 --> 02:00:53,430
talked about until the late
1870s.

2113
02:00:53,990 --> 02:00:57,350
And then another one that came
to mind that was also this one

2114
02:00:57,350 --> 02:00:59,730
kind of shocked me.
This was pretty recent, was that

2115
02:00:59,730 --> 02:01:04,810
the last charge is talked about
in 1844 and 1845, shortly after

2116
02:01:04,810 --> 02:01:08,330
Joseph Smith's death, but then
after Brigham Young kind of told

2117
02:01:08,330 --> 02:01:11,650
them to stop trying to prove our
authority to others, the

2118
02:01:11,650 --> 02:01:16,450
apostles kind of stop talking
about the last charge from, you

2119
02:01:16,450 --> 02:01:20,770
know, 1845 up until 1869.
So there's almost two decades

2120
02:01:20,770 --> 02:01:24,930
without any real significant
last charge accounts that the

2121
02:01:24,930 --> 02:01:29,210
talk about that and so the
apostles, I think it's evident

2122
02:01:29,210 --> 02:01:32,490
they kind of put the knowledge
of these higher priests of

2123
02:01:32,490 --> 02:01:36,970
teachings on the back burner and
and what what why do you think

2124
02:01:36,970 --> 02:01:40,370
they might have done that Dave,
just do you want to throw in any

2125
02:01:40,650 --> 02:01:44,410
guess or idea out?
Why they put put these ideas on

2126
02:01:44,410 --> 02:01:47,530
the back burner and kind of stop
talking about that.

2127
02:01:48,810 --> 02:01:52,610
Well, I think that probably 2
reasons I can think of, right

2128
02:01:52,930 --> 02:01:55,930
Brigham's or you already quoted
Brigham where he said that you

2129
02:01:55,930 --> 02:01:58,870
know.
The that it would some of these

2130
02:01:58,870 --> 02:02:02,750
teachings would become more of a
a damn tool for damnation than

2131
02:02:02,750 --> 02:02:05,510
exaltation.
And the next I would imagine is

2132
02:02:05,510 --> 02:02:08,350
that, you know, they still feel
like they have enemies out

2133
02:02:08,350 --> 02:02:10,910
there.
Yeah.

2134
02:02:11,030 --> 02:02:14,190
And I I do think, you know, like
you said, you know, Brigham

2135
02:02:14,190 --> 02:02:17,510
Young actually said where I to
tell the elders that to go and

2136
02:02:17,510 --> 02:02:20,670
build up your kingdoms many
would live sheets swear and

2137
02:02:20,670 --> 02:02:24,790
steal to try to get, you know to
to get men and women steal to

2138
02:02:24,790 --> 02:02:27,620
them.
And so he said, you know, you

2139
02:02:27,780 --> 02:02:30,060
know there was this caution of
it being abused.

2140
02:02:30,300 --> 02:02:34,180
But there also was the context
of the succession crisis where

2141
02:02:34,180 --> 02:02:38,060
because Brigham Young wasn't the
legal successor, he wasn't like

2142
02:02:38,060 --> 02:02:40,740
Joseph Smith's birthright heir.
And Brigham Young actually said,

2143
02:02:41,260 --> 02:02:43,260
you know, that Hiram was the one
who was appointed.

2144
02:02:43,260 --> 02:02:45,940
But the 12 kind of had to step
forward because Hiram was killed

2145
02:02:46,220 --> 02:02:49,340
before Joe Joseph, even Joseph
was killed.

2146
02:02:50,340 --> 02:02:53,840
So in the context of the
succession crisis, there were

2147
02:02:53,840 --> 02:02:57,720
other guys who were kings and
priests who are trying to divide

2148
02:02:57,720 --> 02:03:01,120
up the church and trying to draw
off a party.

2149
02:03:02,240 --> 02:03:06,040
And Brigham Young was kind of,
you know, he he was saddened by

2150
02:03:06,040 --> 02:03:09,040
that kind of spirit.
He actually wrote in his journal

2151
02:03:09,040 --> 02:03:12,080
the same day that the 12 were
sustained to lead the church by

2152
02:03:12,080 --> 02:03:15,680
the special conference on August
8th, 1844.

2153
02:03:15,960 --> 02:03:19,440
He wrote, Now that Joseph is
gone, it seems as though many

2154
02:03:19,440 --> 02:03:21,880
want to draw off a party and be
leaders.

2155
02:03:22,180 --> 02:03:25,860
But this cannot be the Church
must be one or we are not the

2156
02:03:25,860 --> 02:03:28,460
Lords.
So he's emphasizing the need of

2157
02:03:28,460 --> 02:03:31,020
the unity of the Saints.
And this, I think was a very

2158
02:03:31,020 --> 02:03:34,660
pragmatic thing because, you
know, a lot of people who

2159
02:03:34,660 --> 02:03:37,620
weren't Mormon after Joseph
Smith died commented that they

2160
02:03:37,620 --> 02:03:40,180
thought the Mormonism would
would expend itself in dying

2161
02:03:40,180 --> 02:03:44,180
confusion after the death of
Joseph Smith without a head of

2162
02:03:44,180 --> 02:03:47,020
Mormonism anymore.
But Brigham Young and the 12

2163
02:03:47,020 --> 02:03:50,660
stepping forward and uniting the
church, you know, actually

2164
02:03:51,120 --> 02:03:53,760
really did preserve Mormonism to
the world.

2165
02:03:54,640 --> 02:03:57,440
There were other guys who tried
to draw off parties and build up

2166
02:03:57,760 --> 02:04:01,400
their own kingdoms or churches
based off of being kings and

2167
02:04:01,400 --> 02:04:03,520
priests and having commissions
or authority.

2168
02:04:03,520 --> 02:04:07,280
You know, Alfeus Cutler, Sidney
Rigdon.

2169
02:04:07,880 --> 02:04:11,040
Sidney Rigdon was sent to
Pittsburgh to build up a church.

2170
02:04:12,040 --> 02:04:14,800
Lyman White was sent to to build
up a Kingdom in Texas.

2171
02:04:14,800 --> 02:04:18,170
But when you look at all these
different movements, they really

2172
02:04:18,170 --> 02:04:20,930
kind of expended themselves in
confusion.

2173
02:04:22,010 --> 02:04:26,250
Lyman White's colony failed and
his followers ended up kind of

2174
02:04:27,130 --> 02:04:29,570
either.
Some of them went to Utah and

2175
02:04:29,570 --> 02:04:32,490
united with Brigham Young, but
most of them actually ended up

2176
02:04:32,490 --> 02:04:36,290
in the RLDS Church just because
Lyman White top patriarchal

2177
02:04:36,290 --> 02:04:39,370
succession so heavily to his
followers.

2178
02:04:40,530 --> 02:04:44,940
Alfus Cutler tried to start up
the church or a branch, but his

2179
02:04:45,060 --> 02:04:48,180
quickly dwindled to only a
handful of members within a you

2180
02:04:48,180 --> 02:04:51,420
know a, you know, a few years
after his death.

2181
02:04:51,420 --> 02:04:55,780
So you know Brigham Young did
what there's there's a

2182
02:04:55,780 --> 02:04:57,140
principle.
Some people talk about the

2183
02:04:57,140 --> 02:05:01,460
principle scattering where
Joseph said that taught that

2184
02:05:01,580 --> 02:05:03,860
there were going to be many
stakes build up all throughout

2185
02:05:03,860 --> 02:05:06,500
the Americas.
And Brigham Young said if a

2186
02:05:06,500 --> 02:05:09,420
man's a king and priest he may
go and build up a Kingdom if he

2187
02:05:09,420 --> 02:05:10,980
knows how the church is
organized.

2188
02:05:12,620 --> 02:05:16,670
But what's what comes before
they're being, You know, I don't

2189
02:05:16,670 --> 02:05:18,990
think that scattering is the
correct term for it.

2190
02:05:19,230 --> 02:05:21,510
I think that Joseph was
initially intending the

2191
02:05:21,510 --> 02:05:24,870
principle of the gathering first
so that there can be a nucleus

2192
02:05:24,870 --> 02:05:29,790
of power for the Saints to have.
You know, that the the influence

2193
02:05:29,790 --> 02:05:32,950
and that economic and political
power that comes from being

2194
02:05:32,950 --> 02:05:36,670
united and and and obviously the
spiritual power that comes from

2195
02:05:36,670 --> 02:05:38,110
believers being united.
Right.

2196
02:05:38,670 --> 02:05:40,970
Right.
And and then after you have that

2197
02:05:40,970 --> 02:05:45,370
nucleus, it's not a scattering.
It's about a multigathering you

2198
02:05:45,370 --> 02:05:47,610
advance from.
You get to the point where you

2199
02:05:47,610 --> 02:05:52,170
have so many people gathered
together that you know you.

2200
02:05:52,250 --> 02:05:56,930
It's practical to have multiple
gathering places.

2201
02:05:57,410 --> 02:06:00,410
And you know Hebrew.
C Kimball actually mentioned

2202
02:06:00,410 --> 02:06:03,650
this in a statement.
He said as God organizes Kingdom

2203
02:06:03,650 --> 02:06:07,920
social, we shall organize ours.
He goes on to say I will show

2204
02:06:07,920 --> 02:06:09,760
you a simile.
When you find a storm of bees,

2205
02:06:09,760 --> 02:06:12,600
there's a king and a queen among
them and they are increasing all

2206
02:06:12,600 --> 02:06:14,560
the time.
When they get too full in the

2207
02:06:14,560 --> 02:06:18,360
hive, they go and ordain another
king and queen who go in pursuit

2208
02:06:18,360 --> 02:06:21,440
of a place for their Kingdom and
then away they go.

2209
02:06:21,960 --> 02:06:24,840
So, you know, I think, I do
think the context was kind of

2210
02:06:24,840 --> 02:06:29,320
more of a multigathering and I
do think that's kind of what

2211
02:06:29,320 --> 02:06:32,240
Brigham Young tried to do in the
Rocky Mountains after Salt Lake

2212
02:06:32,240 --> 02:06:36,390
was established in a big city.
He, Brigham Young is one of the

2213
02:06:36,390 --> 02:06:39,310
biggest colonizers in the
history of the West, right.

2214
02:06:39,310 --> 02:06:42,710
He's founded, he's responsible
for founding over 100 different

2215
02:06:42,710 --> 02:06:45,110
cities throughout the Rocky
Mountains.

2216
02:06:45,910 --> 02:06:49,670
So you know, unfortunately, you
know because of the political

2217
02:06:49,670 --> 02:06:54,070
circumstances, the knowledge of
these higher principles was not

2218
02:06:54,070 --> 02:06:57,790
fully preserved publicly to the
Saints.

2219
02:06:58,070 --> 02:07:01,470
And so, you know, unfortunately
it was eventually lost overtime.

2220
02:07:01,470 --> 02:07:04,220
But you know, I do think that
it's important, you know that a

2221
02:07:04,220 --> 02:07:07,380
lot of researchers and
especially the fundamentalist

2222
02:07:07,380 --> 02:07:11,420
world have been instrumental to
getting this knowledge about,

2223
02:07:11,420 --> 02:07:13,700
you know, the higher
organization of the church and

2224
02:07:13,700 --> 02:07:18,620
Kingdom back to the Saints.
So this is really foundational

2225
02:07:18,620 --> 02:07:22,580
to understand the Lebaron story
and getting into, you know,

2226
02:07:22,580 --> 02:07:26,100
Bendre F Johnson, Alma Deir
Lebaron and what happened there.

2227
02:07:26,100 --> 02:07:29,020
So we talked a little bit about
Bendre and F Johnson.

2228
02:07:29,680 --> 02:07:31,640
He was like a little brother to
Joseph Smith.

2229
02:07:31,640 --> 02:07:33,800
He was closer to them than
almost everyone.

2230
02:07:34,080 --> 02:07:39,160
He you know, he he nursed Joseph
when he was sick and Abu he he

2231
02:07:39,160 --> 02:07:42,320
was he he was his nurse when he
was sick and and helped help

2232
02:07:42,320 --> 02:07:47,520
them get better again.
He was in charge at at one point

2233
02:07:47,560 --> 02:07:51,320
of Joseph Smith's Mansion House
and attempted to work with Emma

2234
02:07:51,320 --> 02:07:54,760
by the Council 50 under Brigham
Young, which indicates, you

2235
02:07:54,760 --> 02:07:57,680
know, that Joseph had a familial
connection because they can only

2236
02:07:57,680 --> 02:08:01,610
appoint people who were close
with the Smith family to be in

2237
02:08:01,610 --> 02:08:04,770
charge of renting out the
mansion because Emma still was

2238
02:08:04,770 --> 02:08:10,330
living there with her children.
And so Johnson's biography, When

2239
02:08:10,330 --> 02:08:12,850
you actually read My Life's
review, which is a great book to

2240
02:08:12,850 --> 02:08:14,210
read if you haven't read it
before.

2241
02:08:14,530 --> 02:08:17,930
It's concerned one of the best
autobiographies of early

2242
02:08:17,930 --> 02:08:22,250
Mormonism that, you know,
details what Joseph Smith was

2243
02:08:22,250 --> 02:08:24,850
teaching and practicing Joseph
filling.

2244
02:08:25,290 --> 02:08:28,900
Smith wrote about it saying the
greatest treasure House of early

2245
02:08:28,900 --> 02:08:32,180
church historical information
ever left by a single man is my

2246
02:08:32,180 --> 02:08:34,180
life's review by Benjamin
Franklin Johnson.

2247
02:08:34,940 --> 02:08:38,140
So the Lebarons emphasize a
tradition that was passed on

2248
02:08:38,140 --> 02:08:41,260
their family, that Benjamin
Johnson had been adopted to

2249
02:08:41,260 --> 02:08:44,660
Joseph Smith as a son.
I believe this tradition.

2250
02:08:44,660 --> 02:08:48,180
I haven't personally found the
records of the stealing ever

2251
02:08:48,180 --> 02:08:50,860
occurring, but I'm not too
surprised about that because we

2252
02:08:50,860 --> 02:08:54,040
really haven't.
Nobody's really gotten the the,

2253
02:08:54,040 --> 02:08:56,800
not the Saint George temple
ceiling records where so many of

2254
02:08:56,800 --> 02:09:00,160
the Saints in early Utah were
getting all their ceilings done

2255
02:09:00,240 --> 02:09:04,640
as soon as the temple was ready,
such as Brigham Young, who I

2256
02:09:04,920 --> 02:09:06,240
was.
I heard that Brigham Young had

2257
02:09:06,240 --> 02:09:09,040
himself sealed to his dad, who
was faithful in the church, and

2258
02:09:09,040 --> 02:09:11,800
then he had his dad sealed the
Joseph Smith as a son.

2259
02:09:12,200 --> 02:09:15,000
And Wilfred Woodruff did
something very similar where he

2260
02:09:15,200 --> 02:09:19,160
his dad was a he had his dad as
a faithful patriarch in the

2261
02:09:19,160 --> 02:09:22,520
church, and so he sealed himself
to his dad and he sealed his dad

2262
02:09:23,150 --> 02:09:27,350
to Joseph Smith.
So we only know about that from

2263
02:09:27,350 --> 02:09:31,670
other second hand, third hand
sources that report like Wilfred

2264
02:09:31,670 --> 02:09:33,390
Woodruff wrote about that in his
journal.

2265
02:09:33,750 --> 02:09:37,270
But while adoption covenants may
have been made outside of the

2266
02:09:37,270 --> 02:09:41,430
temple, I don't think adoption
ceilings are being done by

2267
02:09:41,430 --> 02:09:45,140
Joseph Smith before Temple was
completed, based on the fact

2268
02:09:45,140 --> 02:09:47,580
that Brigham Young and John
Taylor in early Utah said they

2269
02:09:47,580 --> 02:09:50,780
hadn't yet been sealed to Joseph
Smith as yet.

2270
02:09:50,780 --> 02:09:53,380
So that would imply that Joseph
Smith wasn't doing adoption

2271
02:09:53,380 --> 02:09:57,100
ceilings before the temple was
completed, but was waiting for a

2272
02:09:57,100 --> 02:10:01,100
temple to do those ordinances.
So I think the way Joseph Smith

2273
02:10:01,100 --> 02:10:05,500
was kind of getting using the
ceiling power in a he said in a

2274
02:10:05,500 --> 02:10:09,260
crafty way to seal all you can.
And the way he was connecting

2275
02:10:09,260 --> 02:10:12,700
himself to his close followers
before the temple was built was

2276
02:10:12,700 --> 02:10:16,740
by doing plural marriages with
their close family members.

2277
02:10:17,100 --> 02:10:20,620
And so for example, Brigham
Young had his sister sealed as a

2278
02:10:20,620 --> 02:10:25,660
wife to Joseph Smith.
Willard Richards had his sister

2279
02:10:25,660 --> 02:10:26,980
sealed as a wife to Joseph
Smith.

2280
02:10:27,860 --> 02:10:32,810
Heber C Kimball and Noel K
Whitney had daughters dealed his

2281
02:10:32,810 --> 02:10:35,090
wife to Joseph Smith.
And they even explained that

2282
02:10:35,090 --> 02:10:38,610
this was dynastic, that it was
to link their family to Joseph

2283
02:10:38,610 --> 02:10:41,770
Smith was the reason that, you
know, they were doing and you

2284
02:10:41,770 --> 02:10:45,810
know, encouraging these their
daughters to enter into those.

2285
02:10:46,250 --> 02:10:49,690
And so there's a lot of
followers who are doing this,

2286
02:10:50,090 --> 02:10:53,210
and I think a lot of people
overlook this as part of Joseph

2287
02:10:53,210 --> 02:10:54,690
Smith's practice of plural
marriage.

2288
02:10:55,920 --> 02:10:59,520
Joseph, I consider Ben, Jeff
Johnson to be, we know that he

2289
02:10:59,520 --> 02:11:01,560
was in the Smith family on two
accounts.

2290
02:11:01,840 --> 02:11:05,240
First of all, his mother was
sealed as a plural wife to

2291
02:11:05,240 --> 02:11:07,720
Joseph Smith's uncle.
So that effectively really made

2292
02:11:07,760 --> 02:11:11,560
the the Johnson family
interconnected with the Smith

2293
02:11:11,560 --> 02:11:14,840
family.
But then honest Joseph Smith had

2294
02:11:14,840 --> 02:11:19,240
two a bench ref Johnson's
sisters sealed to him as wives.

2295
02:11:19,440 --> 02:11:23,210
And so he was his brotherinlaw
on two different accounts, which

2296
02:11:23,210 --> 02:11:26,850
creates in my opinion, a lattice
working relationship stronger

2297
02:11:27,050 --> 02:11:29,850
than an adoption.
Like, you know what if you have

2298
02:11:29,850 --> 02:11:33,970
to ask someone at point blank
which is a stronger family

2299
02:11:33,970 --> 02:11:36,170
connection going through an
ordinance of someone and being

2300
02:11:36,170 --> 02:11:39,370
sealed to them as a son, or
having two of your sisters be

2301
02:11:39,370 --> 02:11:41,850
married to them.
And I I think most people would

2302
02:11:41,850 --> 02:11:45,700
say having two of your sisters
married to someone is you know

2303
02:11:45,700 --> 02:11:48,340
that that's that's really going
to, you know, that's really

2304
02:11:48,340 --> 02:11:51,780
going to make you family and and
very deed, you know, while an

2305
02:11:51,780 --> 02:11:55,420
adoption ceiling, it's only as
much effort as you put into it,

2306
02:11:55,420 --> 02:12:00,700
right.
So what's interesting is Ben

2307
02:12:00,700 --> 02:12:04,060
Jeff Johnson wrote about a
family meeting of the Johnsons

2308
02:12:04,060 --> 02:12:08,300
in early Utah where he said
there was a general at Christmas

2309
02:12:08,300 --> 02:12:11,690
of 1870, a general gathering of
the Johnson family.

2310
02:12:11,690 --> 02:12:15,050
Akin was at the social hall
attended by the 1st Presidency

2311
02:12:15,370 --> 02:12:18,210
and principal elders of the
church, which President George

2312
02:12:18,210 --> 02:12:20,330
Smith alluded to historical
family incidents.

2313
02:12:20,810 --> 02:12:23,130
He said he became acquainted
with the Johnsons while

2314
02:12:23,130 --> 02:12:27,210
journeying together in 1833, and
he had known each member

2315
02:12:27,210 --> 02:12:29,490
personally.
And he goes on, He says, our

2316
02:12:29,490 --> 02:12:32,900
family is now perhaps the
largest family in all Israel,

2317
02:12:32,900 --> 02:12:36,020
and of all the number not one of
the apostatizer been convicted

2318
02:12:36,020 --> 02:12:38,260
of a crime.
And of them all there was not

2319
02:12:38,260 --> 02:12:40,180
one unwelcome to the name of
Smith.

2320
02:12:40,580 --> 02:12:44,500
And if we are not of the Smith
family, then he belonged to the

2321
02:12:44,500 --> 02:12:47,060
Johnson family.
So George A Smith was saying, if

2322
02:12:47,220 --> 02:12:50,900
the the Johnsons aren't Smiths,
then I am a Johnson, you know,

2323
02:12:50,900 --> 02:12:55,780
is what he what his opinion was.
So effectively the he considered

2324
02:12:55,780 --> 02:13:00,260
the the Johnsons and the Smith
family to have been merged.

2325
02:13:02,330 --> 02:13:05,330
You know, Joseph Benjamin F
Johnson was close to Joseph

2326
02:13:05,330 --> 02:13:08,530
Smith in that he recalled that
Joseph Smith taught him about

2327
02:13:08,530 --> 02:13:11,970
the temple ordinances even
before he had received any of

2328
02:13:11,970 --> 02:13:15,850
the temple ordinances.
He wrote that Joseph showed me

2329
02:13:15,850 --> 02:13:18,570
his garments and explained that
they were such as the Lord made

2330
02:13:18,570 --> 02:13:22,370
for Adam from animal skins, and
gave me such ideas as pertaining

2331
02:13:22,370 --> 02:13:24,050
to endowments as he thought
proper.

2332
02:13:24,250 --> 02:13:26,690
He told me Freemasonry at
present was the apostate

2333
02:13:26,690 --> 02:13:29,570
endowments, as sectarian
religion was the apostate

2334
02:13:29,570 --> 02:13:31,970
religion.
And he gives.

2335
02:13:32,130 --> 02:13:35,810
You know, Johnson writes about
being about the member of the

2336
02:13:35,810 --> 02:13:40,010
Council 50 in the last charge,
and he also writes about being

2337
02:13:40,010 --> 02:13:42,370
taught about the temple keys by
Joseph Smith.

2338
02:13:42,810 --> 02:13:45,130
He said the keys of endowments
and plural marriage had been

2339
02:13:45,130 --> 02:13:48,730
given, and some had received
their second anointing, Baxism,

2340
02:13:48,730 --> 02:13:50,530
for the dead had been taught and
the keys committed.

2341
02:13:50,530 --> 02:13:53,370
All these things I've been
comprehended, though, and some I

2342
02:13:53,370 --> 02:13:56,450
had not fully participated.
These sacred principles were

2343
02:13:56,450 --> 02:13:59,290
then committed to but a few.
But not not only were they

2344
02:13:59,290 --> 02:14:02,290
committed to me from the first,
but from the first, I was

2345
02:14:02,290 --> 02:14:05,410
authorized by the Prophet to
teach them to others when I was

2346
02:14:05,410 --> 02:14:08,290
led to do so.
What's interesting, William

2347
02:14:08,290 --> 02:14:12,770
Clayton's journal actually
records in October 1843, Joseph

2348
02:14:12,770 --> 02:14:15,770
Smith teaching Bendruff Johnson
about the 2nd Anointing.

2349
02:14:16,130 --> 02:14:18,330
He says that there were two
seals in the priesthood.

2350
02:14:19,130 --> 02:14:23,090
And then he then he goes and he
according to Bendruff Johnson,

2351
02:14:23,130 --> 02:14:28,610
Joseph then seals him to his
first wife by the Holy Spirit of

2352
02:14:28,610 --> 02:14:31,450
promise, which normally being
sealed by the Holy Spirit of

2353
02:14:31,450 --> 02:14:33,450
promise is part of the second
anointing.

2354
02:14:33,770 --> 02:14:36,610
But there were there's evidence
that Joseph was conferring those

2355
02:14:36,610 --> 02:14:40,330
blessings on people in Nauvoo
and marriage ceilings, you know

2356
02:14:40,930 --> 02:14:47,530
outside of the second anointing.
So, So Johnson wrote in in the

2357
02:14:47,690 --> 02:14:50,410
in the last two years of his
life, he wrote a great letter

2358
02:14:50,410 --> 02:14:53,850
called the the Gibbs Letter to
George S Gibbs that really kind

2359
02:14:53,850 --> 02:14:58,050
of lays out, you know, a very
long letter about his

2360
02:14:58,130 --> 02:15:01,690
experiences in the Church and
Joseph Smith and things that

2361
02:15:01,690 --> 02:15:04,130
Joseph Smith taught him in
different principles and

2362
02:15:04,530 --> 02:15:08,130
different life experiences.
He had been given that related

2363
02:15:08,130 --> 02:15:11,610
to Church history.
And in it he gives a very

2364
02:15:11,610 --> 02:15:13,890
detailed account of the last
charge.

2365
02:15:14,330 --> 02:15:17,890
And it's very interesting how he
details.

2366
02:15:18,210 --> 02:15:20,930
He talks about precinct keys,
and then he makes a very

2367
02:15:20,930 --> 02:15:22,850
interesting comment.
After he talks about the last

2368
02:15:22,850 --> 02:15:25,750
charge, he said, and now
returning to the council, the

2369
02:15:25,750 --> 02:15:28,030
last charge.
Let us remember that by

2370
02:15:28,030 --> 02:15:31,230
revelation he'd reorganized the
holy priesthood, and by command

2371
02:15:31,230 --> 02:15:33,790
of the Lord had taken from the
first Presidency his brother

2372
02:15:33,790 --> 02:15:37,030
hire him to hold as patriarch
the stealing power the 1st and

2373
02:15:37,030 --> 02:15:39,590
highest honor due to priesthood.
They turned the keys of

2374
02:15:39,590 --> 02:15:42,470
endowment to the last anointing
and sealing together with the

2375
02:15:42,470 --> 02:15:45,070
keys of salvation for the dead,
with the eternity of the

2376
02:15:45,070 --> 02:15:46,870
marriage covenant and the power
of endless lives.

2377
02:15:47,270 --> 02:15:49,710
All these keys he held.
Under these existing

2378
02:15:49,710 --> 02:15:52,870
circumstances he stood before
that association of his select

2379
02:15:52,870 --> 02:15:56,050
friends, including all the 12,
and with great feeling and

2380
02:15:56,050 --> 02:15:59,170
animation, graphically reviewed
his life of persecution, labor,

2381
02:15:59,170 --> 02:16:02,210
and sacrifice with the church
and Kingdom of God, both of

2382
02:16:02,210 --> 02:16:04,610
which he declared were now
organized upon the earth, the

2383
02:16:04,610 --> 02:16:07,130
bird of which had become too
great for him longer to carry,

2384
02:16:07,130 --> 02:16:10,410
that he was weary and tired with
the weight he had so long born.

2385
02:16:10,810 --> 02:16:13,170
And then he said, with great
vehements, and in the name of

2386
02:16:13,170 --> 02:16:16,050
the Lord, I now shake from my
shoulders the the responsibility

2387
02:16:16,050 --> 02:16:18,010
of bearing off the Kingdom of
God to all of the world.

2388
02:16:18,290 --> 02:16:20,850
And here and now I place the
responsibility, with all the

2389
02:16:20,850 --> 02:16:23,700
keys, powers, and privileges
pertaining thereto upon the

2390
02:16:23,700 --> 02:16:26,580
shoulders of you the 12
apostles, in connection with

2391
02:16:26,580 --> 02:16:29,340
this council.
If you accept this to do it, God

2392
02:16:29,340 --> 02:16:31,220
shall bless you mightily, and
shall open your way.

2393
02:16:31,540 --> 02:16:34,260
And if you do it, I now shake my
garment clear and free from the

2394
02:16:34,260 --> 02:16:36,820
blood of this generation and of
all men.

2395
02:16:37,100 --> 02:16:39,940
And shaking his skirt with great
behemoths, he raised himself on

2396
02:16:39,940 --> 02:16:44,020
the floor, while the spirit that
accompanies words thrilled every

2397
02:16:44,020 --> 02:16:47,100
heart with the feeling that
voted bereavement and sorrow.

2398
02:16:48,260 --> 02:16:50,139
So that's in a letter to church
leaders.

2399
02:16:50,660 --> 02:16:54,260
He gives a more direct account
of the last charge in his in his

2400
02:16:54,260 --> 02:16:58,500
autobiography, which they
actually even edited in the in

2401
02:16:58,500 --> 02:17:00,980
the very first edition of his
life's review, they actually

2402
02:17:01,020 --> 02:17:03,620
edited out all the references to
the Council of 50.

2403
02:17:03,940 --> 02:17:07,540
But in the original account it's
he gives kind of a short

2404
02:17:07,540 --> 02:17:09,020
account.
It says at one of the last

2405
02:17:09,020 --> 02:17:12,219
meetings of the council of 50
after all have been completed

2406
02:17:12,500 --> 02:17:15,070
and the keys of power committed,
and in the presence of the

2407
02:17:15,070 --> 02:17:18,150
Quorum of the 12 and others who
encircled around him, he arose,

2408
02:17:18,150 --> 02:17:20,709
gave a review of his life and
sufferings and the testimonies

2409
02:17:20,709 --> 02:17:23,830
he had born, and said that the
Lord had now accepted his labors

2410
02:17:23,830 --> 02:17:26,870
and sacrifice and did not
require him longer to carry the

2411
02:17:26,870 --> 02:17:30,150
responsibilities and burning and
burden of bearing off this

2412
02:17:30,150 --> 02:17:32,629
Kingdom and turning to those
around him, including the 12.

2413
02:17:32,629 --> 02:17:35,030
He said, in the name of the Lord
Jesus Christ.

2414
02:17:35,030 --> 02:17:38,230
And I'll place it upon you, my
brethren of this council, and I

2415
02:17:38,230 --> 02:17:41,430
shake my skirts clear of the all
responsibility from this time

2416
02:17:41,430 --> 02:17:45,160
forth, springing from the floor
and shaking his skirts at the

2417
02:17:45,160 --> 02:17:49,600
same time.
So what's what's fascinating?

2418
02:17:49,719 --> 02:17:52,200
So he gives us account, the last
charge.

2419
02:17:52,200 --> 02:17:56,000
But then he says this in going
back to the Gibbs letter.

2420
02:17:56,360 --> 02:17:59,920
And now, my dear brother, after
60 years have passed, at 85

2421
02:17:59,920 --> 02:18:02,600
years in age, I bury to you and
all the world the song,

2422
02:18:02,600 --> 02:18:04,920
testimony, the truth and
veracity of what I have written

2423
02:18:04,920 --> 02:18:06,799
above.
For although so many years have

2424
02:18:06,799 --> 02:18:09,600
intervened, they're still in my
mind, as fresh as when they

2425
02:18:09,600 --> 02:18:11,709
occurred.
No doubt is a part fulfillment

2426
02:18:11,709 --> 02:18:14,790
of a prediction by the Prophet
relating to testimonies.

2427
02:18:14,790 --> 02:18:17,670
I should bear his teachings
after I'd become hoary with age,

2428
02:18:18,309 --> 02:18:20,350
he said.
Then he goes, There were dear

2429
02:18:20,350 --> 02:18:24,670
brother and other, excuse me,
there were dear brother other

2430
02:18:24,670 --> 02:18:27,389
teachings that council of which
I'm not at full liberty to

2431
02:18:27,389 --> 02:18:29,350
write.
But if I had your ear, I'd

2432
02:18:29,350 --> 02:18:32,510
remember the Prophet once said
to me, Benjamin, in regard to

2433
02:18:32,510 --> 02:18:34,830
those things I've taught you
privately that are not yet for

2434
02:18:34,830 --> 02:18:37,870
the public, I give you the right
when you are so led to commit

2435
02:18:37,870 --> 02:18:41,030
them to others where you will
not be led wrong in discerning

2436
02:18:41,030 --> 02:18:47,830
those worthy of your confidence.
So this is a very interesting

2437
02:18:47,830 --> 02:18:50,950
statement, implying that he had
some sort of secret teachings

2438
02:18:50,950 --> 02:18:54,629
from Joseph Smith that he
couldn't even write in this

2439
02:18:54,629 --> 02:18:58,629
letter, which was in response to
questions by the 1st Presidency

2440
02:18:58,629 --> 02:19:02,430
about Church history about
succession and priesthood.

2441
02:19:03,270 --> 02:19:05,459
So.
Hold, hold, hold on just one

2442
02:19:05,459 --> 02:19:07,500
second.
Who's the 1st Presidency at this

2443
02:19:07,500 --> 02:19:12,420
time?
So this is Joseph F Smith is the

2444
02:19:12,420 --> 02:19:16,860
1st President.
And this letter was written by

2445
02:19:16,860 --> 02:19:21,580
George S Gibbs, who is kind of a
a church historian, but he was,

2446
02:19:21,620 --> 02:19:24,420
it seemed like he was writing it
at the kind of the request of

2447
02:19:24,420 --> 02:19:28,260
the First Presidency because his
father was a secretary in the

2448
02:19:28,260 --> 02:19:31,500
First Presidency, George George
F Gibbs.

2449
02:19:32,139 --> 02:19:34,950
And so he's saying that there
were teachings not yet for the

2450
02:19:34,950 --> 02:19:37,549
public but you.
But he's he's recalling again

2451
02:19:37,549 --> 02:19:40,629
that Joseph gave him the right
to commit the things that he had

2452
02:19:40,629 --> 02:19:44,790
received from Joseph to others
and in his biography had

2453
02:19:44,790 --> 02:19:47,629
mentioned, you know, the temple
ordinances that Joseph taught

2454
02:19:47,629 --> 02:19:50,590
him, not only taught him about
the temple ordinances, but

2455
02:19:50,590 --> 02:19:53,310
authorized him from the
beginning to teach them to

2456
02:19:53,470 --> 02:19:57,990
others when he was led to do so.
So the question I've got to ask

2457
02:19:57,990 --> 02:20:02,670
did anyone ever claim to receive
anything significant or any?

2458
02:20:03,150 --> 02:20:06,750
Exclusive knowledge or private
teachings from Benjamin F

2459
02:20:06,750 --> 02:20:11,750
Johnson, and the only person
that I know of, whoever.

2460
02:20:11,830 --> 02:20:14,150
I'm sure he had lots of
conversations with family and

2461
02:20:14,150 --> 02:20:16,270
friends about his experience in
church and street.

2462
02:20:16,670 --> 02:20:20,430
But the only person whoever came
forward with a peculiar claim to

2463
02:20:20,430 --> 02:20:23,590
having received exclusive
knowledge in connection with

2464
02:20:23,590 --> 02:20:27,150
special authority was his
grandson, Al Madera Le Baron,

2465
02:20:27,430 --> 02:20:31,510
who testified that he'd been
very close with Bendra F Johnson

2466
02:20:31,510 --> 02:20:35,070
growing up as a as a young kid.
And that he said when he was

2467
02:20:35,870 --> 02:20:39,630
about 10 years old that Bendra F
Johnson gave him a patriarchal

2468
02:20:39,630 --> 02:20:43,710
blessing and appointed him the
birthright of Israel on that

2469
02:20:43,710 --> 02:20:46,910
occasion, and in doing so
appointed him basically the

2470
02:20:46,910 --> 02:20:49,910
birthright of Joseph Smith, is
how that was understood.

2471
02:20:50,710 --> 02:20:54,830
And he he was able to do this
because the Le Barons were

2472
02:20:54,830 --> 02:20:59,210
considered the Lebaron family,
considered themselves to be

2473
02:20:59,210 --> 02:21:03,690
Smiths in eternity.
Part, he said.

2474
02:21:03,690 --> 02:21:04,770
Part.
You know, obviously there's the

2475
02:21:04,770 --> 02:21:06,090
connection with Ben Jeff
Johnson.

2476
02:21:06,090 --> 02:21:09,650
But the other important
connection was their descendant

2477
02:21:09,650 --> 02:21:14,850
from Esther, Esther Johnson
Lebaron, who was Ben Jeff

2478
02:21:14,850 --> 02:21:17,650
Johnson said that Joseph Smith
had asked for her to be a plural

2479
02:21:17,650 --> 02:21:20,130
wife, but that she was already
engaged.

2480
02:21:20,130 --> 02:21:23,450
So it didn't work out.
And although reluctantly, Joseph

2481
02:21:23,890 --> 02:21:26,410
dropped the matter, but the
family still believe that

2482
02:21:26,410 --> 02:21:30,450
because Joseph was asking for
her as a plural wife that he

2483
02:21:30,530 --> 02:21:33,290
must have you know that she was
intended to be Joseph Smith's

2484
02:21:33,290 --> 02:21:38,010
wife in eternity.
And so the le Baron family,

2485
02:21:38,450 --> 02:21:42,650
Benjamin F Alma de le Baron's
brother Conway, who was

2486
02:21:42,650 --> 02:21:45,730
mainstream member of the church,
recalled one time going to his

2487
02:21:45,730 --> 02:21:49,010
father about the discussions of
the family, about whether they

2488
02:21:49,010 --> 02:21:51,810
are Smith's or Le Baron's.
And he said they went to his

2489
02:21:51,810 --> 02:21:53,930
father, who is Benjamin F le
Baron.

2490
02:21:54,390 --> 02:21:57,230
And he asked, are we going to be
Smith's or le barons in

2491
02:21:57,270 --> 02:21:59,110
eternity?
And he said I expect to be

2492
02:21:59,110 --> 02:22:02,590
Smith's.
So that tradition goes back in

2493
02:22:02,590 --> 02:22:05,310
the family long before Darrell
le Baron.

2494
02:22:05,310 --> 02:22:07,950
That was something that was in
his family line.

2495
02:22:08,550 --> 02:22:11,150
And DARE was kind of raised
during that time period where

2496
02:22:11,150 --> 02:22:15,110
there was a big change in the
church doctrine and teachings,

2497
02:22:15,110 --> 02:22:17,430
which you've kind of covered in
previous podcasts.

2498
02:22:17,750 --> 02:22:22,630
You know, from 1890 to 1920, you
almost have a completely

2499
02:22:22,630 --> 02:22:26,670
different church by that point
because, you know, there's so

2500
02:22:26,670 --> 02:22:29,470
many things that have been
radically changed during that

2501
02:22:29,470 --> 02:22:32,310
time period.
And he there was a basically a

2502
02:22:32,430 --> 02:22:38,510
teenager at that time and he was
a teenager in 19110 years after

2503
02:22:38,510 --> 02:22:44,020
the manifesto when his parents
were met by two apostles and

2504
02:22:44,140 --> 02:22:47,540
encouraged to move to Mexico so
that they could enter into

2505
02:22:47,540 --> 02:22:50,060
plural marriage.
And so they moved to Mexico and

2506
02:22:50,060 --> 02:22:51,700
they tried to enter into plural
marriage.

2507
02:22:51,700 --> 02:22:55,660
But it ended up falling through.
And that failure kind of haunted

2508
02:22:56,780 --> 02:22:59,580
Almodeira Lebaron's father for
the rest of his life.

2509
02:22:59,740 --> 02:23:03,180
He kind of in his personal
history, he mentioned, you know,

2510
02:23:03,340 --> 02:23:06,980
she, she actually later tried to
say she had a change of heart

2511
02:23:06,980 --> 02:23:10,100
and she wanted to get sealed.
And he kind of had already

2512
02:23:10,100 --> 02:23:11,980
reconciled to being a
monogamist.

2513
02:23:11,980 --> 02:23:17,030
He said you know he says he says
you know would I've been better

2514
02:23:17,030 --> 02:23:20,510
off if I've lived the higher
laws kind of what he he kind of

2515
02:23:20,510 --> 02:23:26,030
reflected decades later so but
but so there was in this context

2516
02:23:26,030 --> 02:23:28,990
he said that in in Mexico when
their family was living in

2517
02:23:28,990 --> 02:23:33,230
Mexico they got to meet apostle
John W Taylor and get to be on

2518
02:23:33,230 --> 02:23:37,950
friendly relations with some of
a lot of these guys who are

2519
02:23:38,190 --> 02:23:40,470
doing post manifesto plural
marriages.

2520
02:23:41,580 --> 02:23:43,220
Okay.
So this has been super

2521
02:23:43,220 --> 02:23:45,580
fascinating, but we're two hours
and 20 minutes in here.

2522
02:23:45,980 --> 02:23:49,260
So what I'd like to do is pause
here and then let's pick up

2523
02:23:49,260 --> 02:23:54,580
again and continue talking about
Almadair Lebaron.

2524
02:23:54,940 --> 02:23:58,220
And then let's move on to Ross
and find out how Ross gets the

2525
02:23:58,220 --> 02:24:01,740
mantle and then move through the
rest of the history and maybe

2526
02:24:01,740 --> 02:24:04,500
some of the teachings that are
unique to the Lebarons.

2527
02:24:04,660 --> 02:24:07,940
So we'll do that next time.
Thanks for tuning in, everybody.

2528
02:24:08,020 --> 02:24:08,420
Bye.