Episode #83: The Life & Ministry Of Joseph W. Musser Part 2 W/Michael Ness

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Last week I released the first
episode of a two-part series on

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the life and Ministry of Joseph
Musser.

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We covered his father, his
birth, his upbringing, early

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life, and concluded the episode
with his 1909 inquisition by the

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Quorum of the 12.
Now to my surprise, this episode

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generated quite a bit of
conversation.

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Well, I think this next episode
might actually get the same

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amount, if not more buzz than
the last.

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Michael Ness joins me again as
he breaks down not only the rest

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of Muster's life, but also a
deep dive into Muster's

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teachings on a variety of
subjects.

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If you thought last week's
episode had some amazing insight

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and history, buckle up because
you ain't seen nothing yet.

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And that's next on this episode
of the Mormon Renegade podcast.

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Look, it's no secret that our
society has become much more

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crude and coarse to become and
raise men and women of virtue

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and characters.
A Herculean task.

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To help with this, I've recently
wrote and published a book.

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Now, back in the 1700s,
Washington had a book called

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Rules of Civility and Decent
Behavior and Company and

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Conversation.
It was a book with 110 rules

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that talked about how to conduct
yourself like a civilized person

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in society, something that
today's society is sorely

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lacking.
What I did is I went back

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through the book and I
reinterpreted his original

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sayings for the 21st century.
So the book is laid out in a way

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in which you see Washington's
original rule.

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Right below that is my
explanation for the 21st

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century, and below that you'll
find two or three examples of

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where to use this in the real
world.

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Now, to go along with this,
there's a workbook that helps

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parents teach these principles
and practices to their kids.

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To find the book, go to
mormonrenegade.com, go to the

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bottom of the page, search out
the blog post, and order your

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copy.
Today, I can bear personal

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testimony from personal
experience that this is an

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invaluable tool to help you
raise men and women of virtue

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and character.
You're listening to the Mormon

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Renegade podcast.
All right, man, here we go.

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Part 2.
So, dude, we spent.

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Like where do we leave off We
left off right after the we we

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kind of locked off right after
the we wrapped up the the the

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trial if you will of Joseph
Musser.

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Okay.
So that's where we want to pick

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up right after that.
Yeah, we want to pick up right

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after that and carry this
forward from there.

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But before we do that, for
anyone who hasn't listened to

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part one, you really need to go
back and listen to that.

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Because part one I feel like
really I feel like we almost get

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the sense of the very beginnings
of how fundamentalist kind of

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break off, right.
Certainly the manifestos had

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been, had been, you know,
issued, but there was still a

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sense of cohesion, right?
And and to my knowledge this

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trial seems to be that first
place at which we start seeing

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who the actors will be on the
history, on the stage of church

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history.
As far as making this hard

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divide, we see that there is is
Hebrew J Grant among others who

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are really trying to push the
church in this direction where

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they'll be more socially
acceptable, if you will And and

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it's kind of a microcosm I think
of what's happening in in the

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church overall during that time
period.

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So you definitely need to go
back and listen to that before

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we start on Part 2.
So Muster has his trial.

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He gets away and he's he's able
to stay in another 12 years.

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And So what?
What happens from there?

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Well, he.
Let's see, leaving off in 1909,

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he had that trial with the
Apollo muscles and they asked

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him point blank, you know, join
with us in putting this thing

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down.
And when people come to you and

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ask you, can you enter into the
principle these days?

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We want you to tell him it can't
be done and don't even pay

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attention to the sisters you
know in in the in this manner at

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all.
And he he pretty much told him I

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can't do that And he heavily
insinuated.

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That not just President Joseph F
Smith but other members of the

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Quorum of the 12 had supported
him, You know, in the decisions

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that he had been making.
And we know later on that Joseph

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F Smith personally told him to
take his third wife based on him

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recounting his experiences
during this time period.

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And John Henry Smith and Lorenzo
Snow and possibly others were

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involved, with him taking his
second wife in in 1901.

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So yeah, he gets out and he is
kind of hiding under the

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umbrella of his stake
organization.

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Because Frank, why?
Taylor, who is it was a stake

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president and brother to apostle
John W Taylor.

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And John M Cannon, who I'm
pretty sure is the son of George

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Q Cannon, were also
commissioned, according to

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Joseph Mosser.
Right.

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To keep this principle alive.
And so he's hiding under the

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umbrella in a stake organization
where the apostles don't have

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legal jurisdiction in the church
unless they're sent by the

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president of the church to go
and fix things, right.

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And so I don't know.
I don't have a lot of

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information in that time period.
Besides, four years later, he

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recalls that in a in a
conversation or a meeting with

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Apostle Rudger Clawson.
Roger Clawson told him, Brother,

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muster the Lord bless you.
He will bless and prosper you in

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your undertakings.
You will be blessed, and the day

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will never come when you will
want for bread and you will be

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exalted in the celestial Kingdom
of God if you remain faithful.

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Which is interesting, because
that's true.

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It's very true what happened,
especially.

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But it's cool because after the
1920s, Joseph Musser doesn't do

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too well with business.
And but he's able to pretty much

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the last 20 years of his life
level in, you know, in his means

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through the donations and and
help of friends, you know.

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So.
But he never wanted for bread,

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you know, as Apostle Clawson is
saying.

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As he is serving the Lord, you
know.

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And for any who don't know, let
me stop you right there for a

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second because I I want to kind
of put this time period in

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perspective, right?
Because what you have is you

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have a church divided against
itself, right?

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You have one part of the
leadership who's kind of almost

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actively protecting or setting
up Joseph Musser to to live

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plural marriage.
And then you got another faction

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within leadership that is
really, you know, pushing him to

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to not do this and to tell
people you can't do this

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anymore.
And I can't imagine the kind of,

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you know, the the kind of
cognitive dissidents that that's

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causing in his life.
And then also you wonder, is he,

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you know, out there looking
around trying to figure out

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who's with him and who's against
him?

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Oh, he's, he's walking a
tightrope.

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And he's friends with people on
both sides.

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And you know, and we learned in
the last episode, right, that

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like Joseph Musser has been
brought up and conditioned a

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very certain way.
You know, he was raised in a

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General Authority household,
pretty much.

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And he's been very much
conditioned.

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You know, he was a teenager or
or or young or, you know, or

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younger, even during the
underground days in Utah.

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And he's been fighting people,
fighting polygamy his whole

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life.
His whole life.

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But Rudger Clawson, as you're
saying, he's interesting because

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he's protecting.
And he was in that meeting, too,

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that we talked about last time
and.

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You have Francis Lyman and
Hebrew J Grant trying to get

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Joseph muster to get in line
with us.

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We're putting this down but you
have the silent heroes and then

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even Discord we yeah we talked
about you know you the silent

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guys like Roger Clawson who we
know is he's involved is he was

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a he was a post second Manifesto
polygamist he took a wife after

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the second manifesto of 1904.
And Matthias Cowley sealed that.

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And then you have Orson F
Whitney who was trying to but

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never succeeded in taking a
plural life after that point.

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And you have John Henry Smith
who was at that trial who got

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Joseph Musser his second wife
pretty much you know and so and

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there was discord right between
John Henry Smith and and Hebrew

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J Grant in that meeting, you
know, where what they were like

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they were talking or it was it
was John Henry Smith and Anthony

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Ivins.
Where Anthony Ivins said, well,

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we can't do this now because
it's against the laws of the

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land, because the Edmunds Tucker
Act and all this stuff was

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deemed constitutional, you know,
and it wasn't deemed

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constitutional yet.
And John Henry Smith is like,

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are you kidding me?
That's that's what we're going

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to go with, you know.
But yeah, Rutger Clausson, he's

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a personal favorite of mine.
He also served as president of

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the Quorum of the 12 from 1922.
To 1944.

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And so he if if he had outlived
Hebrew J Grant, he would have

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been the next president of the
Church.

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Would have been interesting to
see how things would have went

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after that.
Right.

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Anyways, we can go on and we
can.

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We can see that from Musser's
diary that Rudger Clawson and he

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were on good terms until about
1929.

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And they would go up and they
would meet with each other in

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Salt Lake and they just go for
walks and stroll around Salt

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Lake City.
And if there's a falling out

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around 1930 because Joseph
Fielding Smith and Joseph Muster

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started to write each other and
it got pretty interesting.

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And you can, I think it's either
volume 11 or volume 14 of Truth.

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He actually publishes the
correspondence years later and

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it's interesting.
We're going to touch on that a

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little bit later.
What did they have A falling out

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about, Michael?
Well, I don't know entirely.

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Besides if I guess what I would
imagine it would be is, is

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Joseph Fielding Smith being a
member of the Quorum of the 12

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went into a quorum meeting and
started showing them them?

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Like this is what Joseph Musser
saying about what we're doing

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and I don't know something in it
is caused bad blood to rug your

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claws and or and it wasn't bad
blood.

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I shouldn't say there wasn't bad
blood.

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It's just that things cooled
off.

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Regarding their personal
interactions after that.

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What is what?
It seems, but they're never

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enemies.
I'll say that Joseph Musser

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relates that in 1915, so six
years after this trial, that an

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apostle conferred upon me the
ceiling power of Elijah with

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instructions to see that plural
marriage shall not die out.

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Now I should have pulled this up
earlier, but I'm going to try to

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pull it up again.
Regarding what Joseph Smith said

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about the ceiling keys of
Elijah, Joseph Smith said the

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Spirit, power, and calling of
Elijah is that ye have power to

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hold the key of the revelations,
ordinances, oracles, powers, and

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endowments of the fullness of
the Melchez priesthood and of

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the Kingdom of God on the earth
and to receive.

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Obtain and perform all the
ordinances belonging to the

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Kingdom of God, even unto the
turning of the hearts of the

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fathers unto the children, and
the hearts of the children unto

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the fathers, even those who were
in heaven.

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And so that's carte blanche.
That's, that is an apostle of

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the Lord giving Joseph Musser
the keys to receive, perform,

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and perform any ordinance and to
obtain the knowledge revelations

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you know from heaven.
All this stuff and perform any

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ordinance necessary for the
building up of the Kingdom of

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God on the earth.
And so do we have any idea who

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the apostle was that conferred
that on it?

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So in most of the statements he
makes when he's referring to

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that moment, he is silent on who
that, on which apostle it was.

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And so I made a list based on
how much I know about Joseph

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Musser.
That is my educated guess to who

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it was and those.
At who are living at the time

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that we're friendly to the
position we're talking about of

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which is perpetuating plural
marriage no matter what, would

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be Joseph F Smith, Anthony H
Lund of the First Presidency,

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Rudger Clawson, Orson F Whitney,
Mathias Kelly or John W Taylor.

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And my personal guess though is
that it would be Joseph F Smith

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because.
He writes in his journal on July

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7th, 1940, added while they were
doing a general meeting at Louis

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Kelsch's house, He says I
testified before 143 adults to

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having received the word of the
Lord on the marriage question

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00:14:11,330 --> 00:14:17,970
from President John Taylor,
Wilfred Woodruff, Lorenza Snow,

225
00:14:18,090 --> 00:14:20,850
George Cue Cannon and Joseph F
Smith and other reliable

226
00:14:20,850 --> 00:14:23,270
sources.
That I was instructed to enter

227
00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:25,750
into the order of plural
marriage from a messenger from

228
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:28,870
President Snow.
And that I had received

229
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:31,830
blessings under the hands of
President Smith That the

230
00:14:31,830 --> 00:14:35,830
principal must go ahead and that
no power on earth or beneath the

231
00:14:35,830 --> 00:14:40,150
earth can stop it.
So yeah, he he definitely makes

232
00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:45,430
inferences to to to Joseph F
Smith there where he says he

233
00:14:45,430 --> 00:14:50,810
received it, you know, blessings
under his hand, I guess 11.

234
00:14:50,930 --> 00:14:53,810
Blessings under his hands that
the principal must go ahead,

235
00:14:54,010 --> 00:14:57,050
right?
Yeah, no, that that seems that

236
00:14:57,050 --> 00:14:59,850
seems almost a dead giveaway.
I was going to say Lund is

237
00:14:59,850 --> 00:15:03,650
definitely there, because wasn't
it Lund that was in that meeting

238
00:15:03,650 --> 00:15:06,890
with him back when we did our
first episode where they met in

239
00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:09,130
the temple and told him, you
know, this is how you're to

240
00:15:09,130 --> 00:15:12,650
conduct yourself now told.
A whole, a whole meeting in the

241
00:15:12,690 --> 00:15:14,970
in the Salt Lake Temple of men
who had been commissioned to

242
00:15:14,970 --> 00:15:16,890
keep the principle of plural
marriage alive.

243
00:15:17,210 --> 00:15:18,050
Right.
Yeah, it was.

244
00:15:18,290 --> 00:15:21,730
The names were.
John M Cannon, I don't know if,

245
00:15:21,810 --> 00:15:23,850
I don't know if Frank, why
Taylor was in that meeting but

246
00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:30,010
was John M Cannon, James Hendry,
Joseph Musser and others is what

247
00:15:30,010 --> 00:15:34,810
it says.
Wow.

248
00:15:35,930 --> 00:15:39,210
This part of history is so
fascinating when you you start

249
00:15:39,210 --> 00:15:42,690
seeing the players and how this
all plays out.

250
00:15:44,130 --> 00:15:48,450
Yeah, no, it's it's it is a it's
fascinating and.

251
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,120
It's tough.
It's so tough like Can you

252
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,960
imagine what how like place
yourself in these guys shoes.

253
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:57,600
That's what I well that's what I
try to do when I when I go

254
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,040
through this history and look at
this and that's tough.

255
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,080
That's so tough.
You know, as I put myself in

256
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,240
their shoes, a couple things
come to mind, right?

257
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,440
One is, is that they're waiting
for the church to kind of get,

258
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,480
get back on course, right.
And it's like, hey, we're we're

259
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,360
meeting with a member of the
First Presidency.

260
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:20,480
This is right around the corner.
This is all going to be sorted

261
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:21,920
out.
We're going to be good.

262
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,720
And I can only imagine the
disappointment is that day.

263
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,560
Just never.
Comes right.

264
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,360
And so I don't know if if we
included this part from the end

265
00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,840
of the trial, where right after
the trial Francis Lyman goes to

266
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,280
Joseph Musser and says if you
would come to me, I would have

267
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,800
given you good advice, right?
And so it's like this political

268
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,080
expedience thing.
And so The funny thing is with

269
00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,400
Francis Lyman is he was a post
manifesto polygamist himself.

270
00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,960
And so it's not like he was
adverse theoretically to post

271
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:59,160
manifesto polygamy.
It seems like he was against it

272
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,360
being done without his advice
because he was politically

273
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,880
concerned with the public image
of the church and the fallout.

274
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,839
And in the talk, in that talk
with Joseph Musser, he says.

275
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:14,069
You know, Joseph, resign
yourself from your position on

276
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:15,750
the High Council and Granite
Stake.

277
00:17:16,349 --> 00:17:18,710
You've been exposed.
The Salt Lake Tribune got you.

278
00:17:18,990 --> 00:17:22,510
Your usefulness to us is over.
But you have a good testimony

279
00:17:23,230 --> 00:17:26,190
and to stay, stay in your ward
and and keep up your calling.

280
00:17:26,190 --> 00:17:27,630
But we got it.
You know, you should resign from

281
00:17:27,630 --> 00:17:29,310
your position on the High
Council.

282
00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:32,990
And Joseph Muster's like, OK,
well, I'll, I'll talk to my

283
00:17:32,990 --> 00:17:38,390
stake president about your
suggestion, You know, And lo and

284
00:17:38,390 --> 00:17:40,710
behold, he stayed exactly where
he was.

285
00:17:41,940 --> 00:17:44,620
You know, and I think this is
the first time we can see where

286
00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:49,140
the church begins to really
worry about its public image,

287
00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:51,940
right?
This might be the one of the

288
00:17:51,940 --> 00:17:53,780
first times where that comes
forward.

289
00:17:54,220 --> 00:18:00,220
And I think, I think the path
that was that the Church set

290
00:18:00,220 --> 00:18:04,140
itself on in those days is the
path that's still on today,

291
00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:08,100
right where come hell or high
water, we're going to preserve

292
00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:10,620
the good name of the church,
even if it's at the expense of

293
00:18:10,620 --> 00:18:15,300
doctrine.
Right, so here's a thought for

294
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:18,980
you that's a good stat for this
for this time period before we

295
00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:24,740
get too far along.
D Michael Quinn writes that from

296
00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:28,620
the The time period between the
First Manifesto and the 2nd

297
00:18:28,620 --> 00:18:35,020
Manifesto, 13 Acting Apostles in
the Quorum of the 12.

298
00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:38,100
From that time period, right.
So you get 13 because you have

299
00:18:38,100 --> 00:18:41,500
deaths and then people who fill
in the gaps, right.

300
00:18:41,740 --> 00:18:45,500
So 13 out of whatever the total
serving apostles were in the

301
00:18:45,500 --> 00:18:47,740
Quorum of the 12 from the First
to Second Manifesto.

302
00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:51,300
I don't have the second number,
but thirteen of them either took

303
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:54,260
a plural life, performed a
marriage in a plural marriage

304
00:18:54,260 --> 00:18:56,940
situation, or arranged a plural
marriage situation.

305
00:18:57,420 --> 00:18:59,860
That's more than a full quorum
of the 12.

306
00:19:03,380 --> 00:19:07,670
And that's not including.
George Cuchanan, Joseph F Smith,

307
00:19:07,670 --> 00:19:12,270
Wilford Woodruff or, yeah,
those.

308
00:19:12,270 --> 00:19:14,510
It's not including those three,
cuz those are members of the

309
00:19:14,510 --> 00:19:16,550
First Presidency, not just the
Quorum of the 12th.

310
00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:18,710
Right.
Right.

311
00:19:19,030 --> 00:19:26,470
Oh man, I'm just it it's mind
boggling, right?

312
00:19:26,950 --> 00:19:31,230
Because most Latter Day Saints
in the LDS Church are taught

313
00:19:31,550 --> 00:19:35,430
it's a clean break in 1890,
right?

314
00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:37,910
And then maybe here.
OK, well, there was one more

315
00:19:37,910 --> 00:19:41,870
manifesto where they basically
said, no, no, this time we mean

316
00:19:41,870 --> 00:19:44,790
it, mean it.
But that wasn't necessarily true

317
00:19:44,790 --> 00:19:48,110
either, right?
There's they're still, they're

318
00:19:48,110 --> 00:19:54,990
still going forward with this.
And it it doesn't disservice to

319
00:19:54,990 --> 00:20:00,270
guys like Musser because it puts
them in the most awkward of

320
00:20:00,270 --> 00:20:03,710
situations, right?
It does.

321
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,080
What's he supposed to?
And there's guys.

322
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,840
There's other guys who are
taken, I think far too soon.

323
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,840
There's another apostle who I
love, which was Abraham Owen

324
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:13,680
Woodruff, who was the son of
Wilfred Woodruff.

325
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,120
After the Second Manifesto, he
went.

326
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:20,680
So the Second Manifesto happened
because of the the Reed Smoot

327
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,920
hearings, right?
Because Reed Smoot wanted to be

328
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,640
a senator, but he was a member
of the Quorum of the 12:00.

329
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,300
Well, Abraham Owen Woodruff went
proposed to do one of Reid

330
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:36,780
Smoot's cousins as soon as like
right after the Second

331
00:20:36,860 --> 00:20:40,540
Manifesto.
Now you want to hear something

332
00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:45,460
interesting?
Speaking of Smoot, he's one of

333
00:20:45,460 --> 00:20:51,220
the ones that's responsible for
the Great Depression.

334
00:20:53,820 --> 00:20:58,020
Yep, he was one of the ones that
passed legislation to place

335
00:20:58,020 --> 00:21:03,860
massive tariffs on.
Foreign goods, which caused our

336
00:21:03,860 --> 00:21:09,860
stuff to skyrocket and actually
threw us into the depression?

337
00:21:11,340 --> 00:21:15,500
That's not fun.
I'm sure the blame can't rest

338
00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:18,060
entirely with one man, but
that's not a good thing to be a

339
00:21:18,060 --> 00:21:20,180
part of in either case.
No, no.

340
00:21:20,180 --> 00:21:24,380
Do you have any questions so
far?

341
00:21:24,420 --> 00:21:25,540
Should we continue?
Nope.

342
00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:27,540
Let's go on.
All right.

343
00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:32,860
So 1921, Joseph Musser has
finally excommunicated when he

344
00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:36,620
tries to take a fourth wife.
To my knowledge, that marriage

345
00:21:36,620 --> 00:21:39,460
fell through.
He eventually did marry a fourth

346
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:41,340
wife, but that was, that was
many years later.

347
00:21:42,740 --> 00:21:48,460
So that was 1921.
By 1922, to what I would like to

348
00:21:48,460 --> 00:21:52,780
call Proto fundamentalist
meetings, you know, because it

349
00:21:52,780 --> 00:21:55,540
was, you know, these, this,
these are the, this is the the

350
00:21:55,540 --> 00:22:00,140
day and the age where it's not a
totally organized movement.

351
00:22:00,140 --> 00:22:04,450
But these people who are being
persecuted or ostracized from

352
00:22:04,450 --> 00:22:07,410
the church but have been set
apart are like, what do we do?

353
00:22:07,410 --> 00:22:09,170
And they're finding each other,
right?

354
00:22:10,170 --> 00:22:12,370
They're finding each other.
They're finding where where can

355
00:22:12,370 --> 00:22:16,330
we meet with comrades and with
people who've been set apart to

356
00:22:16,330 --> 00:22:19,530
do this.
And so you having meetings being

357
00:22:19,530 --> 00:22:24,290
done at Nathaniel Baldwin's
radio plan in Salt Lake City and

358
00:22:24,290 --> 00:22:27,490
other meetings were also held in
various company buildings like

359
00:22:27,490 --> 00:22:31,080
the Omega Company Building,
Atlas Building and and people's

360
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:35,120
homes such as Ianthus Barlow who
was a brother to John Y Barlow.

361
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,040
Meetings are being held not
regularly but they were being

362
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:45,080
held at that point.
Nathaniel Baldwin in his

363
00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,800
journal.
He places Joseph Musser at one

364
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,440
of the meetings, along with
Mathias F Cowley and others like

365
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,880
the Barlow family, in May of
1922.

366
00:22:57,630 --> 00:23:01,190
Lauren and John Woolley appear
in Baldwin's journal as early as

367
00:23:01,190 --> 00:23:04,910
1921, and they're they were
holding meetings there, too.

368
00:23:04,910 --> 00:23:09,150
Special meetings, it says.
And I've heard from one

369
00:23:09,150 --> 00:23:14,270
historian who specializes in
Mormon fundamentalist history

370
00:23:14,590 --> 00:23:18,950
that Lauren Woolley first
announced his claim at the

371
00:23:18,950 --> 00:23:22,830
Baldwin radio plant at a meeting
on March 12th, 1922.

372
00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:28,520
And so it wasn't just the 1929
affidavit of the 1886

373
00:23:29,120 --> 00:23:31,720
ordinations.
I mean that did that was

374
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,000
published as an affidavit in
1929.

375
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,320
But apparently the claims were
being made by Lauren Wooley that

376
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,640
he had received this ordination
as early as March 1922, which

377
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,640
fits the whole, you know, that
whole decade they were having

378
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,920
meetings and they were even
meeting at John Woolley, his

379
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:52,160
house.
And.

380
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,320
But anyways, I'll read.
I'll read.

381
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:59,650
The thing of Baldwin's journal
entry for that day says began

382
00:23:59,650 --> 00:24:02,890
early in the morning to arrange
our big shot for a meeting to be

383
00:24:02,890 --> 00:24:05,890
held in the afternoon.
Some of the brethren came in the

384
00:24:05,890 --> 00:24:08,970
morning to visit.
The meeting began about 3:20 PM

385
00:24:08,970 --> 00:24:14,170
and continued about four hours.
We were blessed with the Spirit

386
00:24:14,250 --> 00:24:16,930
and with many testimonies of the
goodness of God and the gifts of

387
00:24:16,930 --> 00:24:20,730
healing and the principles and
fullness of the gospel.

388
00:24:21,630 --> 00:24:24,750
Some of the interesting
characters present were James E

389
00:24:24,750 --> 00:24:29,350
Hull, WD Livingston, Israel
Barlow and John Burt.

390
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:31,870
Apparently all that came were
delighted.

391
00:24:31,910 --> 00:24:34,990
Some said they had never
attended another such a good

392
00:24:34,990 --> 00:24:37,870
meeting in their lives.
After the meeting, we had a

393
00:24:37,870 --> 00:24:40,470
refreshment of cheese
sandwiches, popcorn balls and

394
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:44,630
apples.
So they're they're receiving an

395
00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:47,990
outpouring of of of the spirit
at these meetings.

396
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:50,470
So the Lord's not leaving them
all alone to.

397
00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:53,530
To go through this, he's he's
letting them know he's with

398
00:24:53,530 --> 00:24:57,930
them.
Yeah, And it's interesting to

399
00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:01,010
know that popcorn balls were a
staple of Mormonism, even at

400
00:25:01,010 --> 00:25:02,730
that point.
I don't know if you know that

401
00:25:02,730 --> 00:25:04,730
primary song.
You're a convert, so I don't

402
00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:08,850
know if you're aware.
Of the one about the apricot

403
00:25:08,850 --> 00:25:12,850
trees or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, all right.

404
00:25:14,770 --> 00:25:18,010
On December 7th.
And this is this is cool.

405
00:25:18,510 --> 00:25:23,430
On December 7th, 1923, Joseph W
Musser sealed Oni Jones as a

406
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:28,230
second wife to Alma Deir Le
Baron Senior in the home of John

407
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:30,790
W Wooley in the room where
President John Taylor received

408
00:25:30,790 --> 00:25:35,990
the 1886 revelation.
So let me ask you this is this

409
00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:41,350
the first time we see a a Le
Baron practicing plural marriage

410
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:44,190
post manifesto?
It's.

411
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:47,030
I don't think it is.
In fact, I I don't.

412
00:25:47,030 --> 00:25:51,270
I couldn't tell you the year for
sure, but Dare Lebaron had a

413
00:25:51,270 --> 00:25:55,190
cousin named Conway or Conrad.
Lebaron, one of the one of those

414
00:25:55,190 --> 00:26:01,950
two names, Conway or Conrad.
And they went to John Bully up

415
00:26:01,950 --> 00:26:03,870
there in this home in
Centerville and caught him out

416
00:26:03,870 --> 00:26:08,950
there working in the farm.
And he had brought this girl and

417
00:26:09,550 --> 00:26:12,390
he's like, you know, we've been
told that to come to you to get

418
00:26:12,390 --> 00:26:14,270
this done.
And you know, he's in his

419
00:26:14,270 --> 00:26:16,230
overalls or whatever, just
working.

420
00:26:16,820 --> 00:26:21,220
And he says let me go in.
And you know, oh, the way I've

421
00:26:21,220 --> 00:26:23,980
heard this story told is they
caught him out there working and

422
00:26:23,980 --> 00:26:25,660
he was swearing, you know,
swearing.

423
00:26:25,660 --> 00:26:29,260
It is getting dirty and working.
He felt so bad to be found, you

424
00:26:29,260 --> 00:26:33,340
know, being that way that he's
like I got to go take care of

425
00:26:33,340 --> 00:26:35,620
some things.
And he apparently as a token of

426
00:26:35,620 --> 00:26:39,140
repentance, you know went into
into the house and he he washed

427
00:26:39,140 --> 00:26:44,220
his hands 7 times as a token to,
you know get ready for to

428
00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:47,140
perform that ceiling and and
perform that ceiling for brother

429
00:26:47,580 --> 00:26:52,660
le Baron and his wife.
That's that's one of the stories

430
00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:54,780
I've been told.
Wow, that's awesome.

431
00:26:57,420 --> 00:27:03,940
Yeah, yeah.
And dear Le Baron's interesting

432
00:27:04,620 --> 00:27:09,340
for a lot of reasons because
he's while he has his own priest

433
00:27:09,340 --> 00:27:15,550
and claims it's interesting that
the situation ended up that he

434
00:27:16,430 --> 00:27:20,510
was having an ordinance
performed on his behalf in the

435
00:27:20,510 --> 00:27:23,710
same room where John Taylor
received the 1886 revelation.

436
00:27:24,550 --> 00:27:27,830
And I don't think there was any
reason for for him to dispute

437
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:30,870
that or anything, or even the
ordinations of that meeting.

438
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:35,390
I I don't know.
He always viewed that his thing

439
00:27:35,390 --> 00:27:38,750
was more patriarchal, and so
there was conflict later on in

440
00:27:38,750 --> 00:27:42,970
the late 1940s between the
priest of council and and DARE.

441
00:27:43,330 --> 00:27:47,570
But there's two sides to that
story, and the truth probably

442
00:27:47,570 --> 00:27:50,010
lays lies somewhere in the
middle between that too.

443
00:27:50,730 --> 00:27:56,530
But we'll get back to him.
Dare Lebaron would also

444
00:27:56,530 --> 00:27:59,930
introduce his friend Tom Jones
to the idea of practicing plural

445
00:27:59,930 --> 00:28:02,450
marriage, and Joseph Musser
performed a ceiling for Tom

446
00:28:02,450 --> 00:28:06,410
Jones in 1926.
Tom Jones was also living in the

447
00:28:06,410 --> 00:28:10,530
Mexican colonies like DARE was,
and he would like to cause a

448
00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:14,060
stir by going into the into the
church dances and bringing his

449
00:28:14,060 --> 00:28:18,020
wives and dancing with, yeah,
two or more of his girls at the

450
00:28:18,020 --> 00:28:19,980
same time.
I like him.

451
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:26,220
I already like him, yeah.
It's a from what I remember

452
00:28:26,220 --> 00:28:30,660
about the Lebaron side of a
fundamentalism in the history is

453
00:28:31,060 --> 00:28:33,660
dare Lebaron not to go on a
tangent too far.

454
00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:37,620
He apparently had about 20 men
down there ready to enter into

455
00:28:37,620 --> 00:28:41,990
the principal around this time
period and then they cut him off

456
00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:43,790
from the church and he lost all
credibility.

457
00:28:44,430 --> 00:28:49,630
Gotcha, gotcha.
And so there and they were They

458
00:28:49,630 --> 00:28:51,870
were invited to stay away from
church meetings.

459
00:28:51,870 --> 00:28:56,390
You know how that goes.
Yeah, I like.

460
00:28:57,790 --> 00:29:02,430
It's interesting that in this
time period, the Church seems

461
00:29:02,430 --> 00:29:06,390
almost hesitant in a lot of
cases to excommunicate someone

462
00:29:06,390 --> 00:29:08,260
for plural marriage.
Right.

463
00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:11,580
Almost like might be a little
too soon to do this.

464
00:29:11,940 --> 00:29:15,300
Let's let's just ask him to stay
away instead.

465
00:29:17,460 --> 00:29:28,140
Yeah.
In 1929, Joseph Musser received

466
00:29:28,140 --> 00:29:30,900
a letter from Joe.
There's a Fielding Smith.

467
00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:35,480
This is the letter we were
talking about earlier and Elder

468
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,000
Joseph feeling Smith at the time
was rebuking Joseph Musser cuz

469
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,640
Joseph Musser went to a meeting
in the Yale ward and ended up

470
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:50,160
taking the sacrament when he was
invited on the stand to sit with

471
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:51,080
the Bishop.
Ricker.

472
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:52,200
I don't know.
I don't know what kind of

473
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,280
meeting it was, but he was
invited to come sit on the stand

474
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,510
and maybe that was his
motivation for taking the

475
00:30:00,510 --> 00:30:03,750
sacrament, cuz how bad does it
look to be up there and not

476
00:30:03,750 --> 00:30:05,430
taken?
I don't know if it's a stigma

477
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:08,390
thing or if I don't.
Or he just felt he was, you

478
00:30:08,390 --> 00:30:12,230
know, I think he was worthy, you
know, But policy is right for if

479
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:14,910
you're excommunicated, you don't
take, you don't take sacrament.

480
00:30:16,270 --> 00:30:18,430
And so Joseph Fielding Smith was
pretty upset with him.

481
00:30:19,790 --> 00:30:22,710
Now why would Joseph F Smith,
though, be upset with him if

482
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:25,070
he's one of the ones that's
encouraging him?

483
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:27,720
To continue to practice plural
marriage.

484
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,440
I get that that officially he
was excommunicated, but the fact

485
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,360
because if I'm not mistaken,
that's not the only time that

486
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,840
muster would be invited to sit
on the stand after his.

487
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,280
And so there, there seems to be
a recognition amongst at least

488
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,200
leadership within these various
wards and stakes that, yeah,

489
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,830
he's out, but he's still good,
right?

490
00:30:53,870 --> 00:30:55,150
And that's that's definitely
true.

491
00:30:55,310 --> 00:31:00,670
But this is 1929 and President
Joseph F Smith of president to

492
00:31:00,670 --> 00:31:02,790
the church has been dead about
11 years at this point.

493
00:31:02,910 --> 00:31:07,190
And it's his son L over Joseph
Fielding Smith Junior.

494
00:31:07,470 --> 00:31:08,750
Oh, OK.
I got you.

495
00:31:09,070 --> 00:31:14,950
I got you and and so yeah, it's
it's super interesting.

496
00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:18,310
You can go through and read like
another trial, for example, and

497
00:31:18,350 --> 00:31:23,200
maybe we should do this podcast
some time on John W Taylor on

498
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:29,840
John W Taylor's trial in 1911.
It gets hairy because he's he's

499
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,560
getting pushed to a point where
he just has to basically say it

500
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,160
without saying it.
Like, look, President Smith has

501
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,440
been directing me and everything
I'm doing here, but two of his

502
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,120
sons were there in the Quorum of
the 12.

503
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:45,950
And Hiram, Hiram M Smith, son of
Joseph F Smith, was like, I

504
00:31:45,950 --> 00:31:47,310
don't like what you're putting
down here.

505
00:31:47,310 --> 00:31:50,310
You're insinuating my dad is
telling you to go against the

506
00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:52,750
manifesto and and perform these
marriages.

507
00:31:53,510 --> 00:31:57,390
You know, and you're creating a
terrible time for us by not

508
00:31:57,390 --> 00:32:00,070
answering these questions.
And John W Taylor's just kind of

509
00:32:00,070 --> 00:32:02,110
like, well, if I answer, you're
going to have the hardest time

510
00:32:02,110 --> 00:32:03,990
you've ever had in this church,
you know?

511
00:32:04,030 --> 00:32:07,990
And so it's it's it's tough
because you do have Joseph F

512
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:12,730
Smith totally encouraging this
stuff, and then you have two of

513
00:32:12,730 --> 00:32:16,410
his sons, Hire, Max Smith and
Joseph Fielding Smith Junior,

514
00:32:16,690 --> 00:32:20,410
who are not trusted with that
information and they're left out

515
00:32:20,410 --> 00:32:25,370
of the loop.
The whole thing is just messy.

516
00:32:25,930 --> 00:32:31,450
I mean messy beyond belief.
I mean and and it's so messy.

517
00:32:31,730 --> 00:32:34,850
And it gets worse, because now
now you have questions like,

518
00:32:34,850 --> 00:32:38,650
well, what did Joseph F Smith
see and his sons that told him

519
00:32:38,650 --> 00:32:40,410
he shouldn't tell them, right, I
mean.

520
00:32:40,910 --> 00:32:45,590
There it it just it tangles up
so quickly.

521
00:32:46,390 --> 00:32:52,550
It does it's it's it's crazy.
But we do see that thread though

522
00:32:52,550 --> 00:32:54,710
as we're as we're talking about
that Joseph Musser had the

523
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:59,150
respect of the people on the
church, not just the lay members

524
00:32:59,190 --> 00:33:02,270
but a fair portion of the
general Authorities still.

525
00:33:02,550 --> 00:33:08,830
And so he is connected to this
inner circle right of of the

526
00:33:08,830 --> 00:33:12,890
Kingdom of God.
You know his father was and he

527
00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:15,530
was raised and and so Joseph was
raised in that.

528
00:33:16,490 --> 00:33:18,370
And I don't, I don't know if
there was a better person

529
00:33:18,370 --> 00:33:23,090
qualified to do the work that
he's going to end up doing after

530
00:33:23,450 --> 00:33:27,250
this point in time, right.
So as a recap before we get to

531
00:33:27,250 --> 00:33:32,410
this next part, in 1899
Thanksgiving morning, Joseph

532
00:33:32,410 --> 00:33:34,490
Musser and his first wife were
invited into the Salt Lake

533
00:33:34,490 --> 00:33:38,930
Temple to receive the fullness
of the priestess, or as he puts

534
00:33:38,930 --> 00:33:41,770
it, the being sealed by the Holy
Spirit of promise.

535
00:33:42,250 --> 00:33:45,210
And they received their second
anointing and a charge from

536
00:33:45,210 --> 00:33:48,410
President Lorenzo Snow to keep
the principle of plural marriage

537
00:33:48,410 --> 00:33:49,730
alive.
Right.

538
00:33:49,850 --> 00:33:54,770
Within a year or within a within
a month of that, he gets a

539
00:33:54,770 --> 00:33:58,090
letter delivered by John Henry
Smith.

540
00:33:58,090 --> 00:34:02,850
I think to say you got to take
another wife within the year or

541
00:34:03,850 --> 00:34:05,890
all the blessings you've had in
this church are going to be

542
00:34:05,890 --> 00:34:08,889
revoked.
And so you got John Henry Smith.

543
00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:12,900
It's getting after Joseph muster
for like less than a month after

544
00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:16,420
he's gotten his second waiting
to go get this done right.

545
00:34:17,980 --> 00:34:23,380
And then 1915 comes around.
We're pretty sure Joseph F Smith

546
00:34:23,380 --> 00:34:26,540
gives him the keys of Elijah.
And so he's got a double

547
00:34:26,540 --> 00:34:29,860
Commission now, right?
Like he's got full autonomy

548
00:34:30,179 --> 00:34:34,900
practically.
But now, by May of 1929, through

549
00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:38,510
meeting at the Nathaniel Baldwin
radio plant, he's been he's been

550
00:34:38,510 --> 00:34:40,270
introduced to the to the
Woolies.

551
00:34:40,270 --> 00:34:43,350
He's performed marriages in John
Woolley's house.

552
00:34:44,670 --> 00:34:48,510
And in May of 1929 he is
ordained a High priest, apostle

553
00:34:48,510 --> 00:34:51,909
and patriarch by Lauren Woolley,
and made a member of the Council

554
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:55,389
of Friends with Lauren Woolley,
Leslie Broadbent, and John

555
00:34:55,389 --> 00:35:01,510
Wybarla.
Man and see here we can start

556
00:35:01,510 --> 00:35:04,470
seeing that the ward really
starts spreading that authority

557
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:06,280
around in these days.
Right.

558
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:12,800
You have the 8 hour meeting you
have then you have the same

559
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,880
thing happening almost again,
you know without the divine

560
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:22,960
manifestation of the Savior and
Joseph Smith where where they

561
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:30,360
they pass the same keys along to
to to Musser and it it really

562
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,240
seems like the Lord is very
cognizant in this moment of.

563
00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:38,460
You got to spread this around or
you know, we're we're not gonna

564
00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:40,620
stand a shot.
You do.

565
00:35:40,620 --> 00:35:44,100
It's like if you have all your
eggs in one basket, you know

566
00:35:44,100 --> 00:35:46,340
someone can come in and just
break them all, right?

567
00:35:46,820 --> 00:35:49,100
Right.
But yeah, there's other things

568
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:52,820
going on too.
And you have patriarchs in

569
00:35:52,820 --> 00:35:55,140
around this time period.
Patriarchs at the stake level

570
00:35:55,140 --> 00:35:58,580
get cut off left and right every
general conference being

571
00:35:58,580 --> 00:36:02,420
announced, and the Brethren are
getting tired of it by about

572
00:36:02,420 --> 00:36:04,530
1930.
You know, they're like, I don't

573
00:36:04,530 --> 00:36:07,370
know, we don't know why these
patriarchs have the idea that

574
00:36:07,370 --> 00:36:10,130
they have the authority to steal
plural marriages.

575
00:36:10,170 --> 00:36:14,250
And it's like, I wonder why they
have the idea that they can do

576
00:36:14,250 --> 00:36:19,170
that.
Because not not only is it

577
00:36:19,170 --> 00:36:21,730
likely Joseph F Smith was
involved being president of the

578
00:36:21,730 --> 00:36:25,890
church setting that up a few
years earlier but it could be

579
00:36:25,890 --> 00:36:32,410
read from Section 124 that the
Patriarchal office has the

580
00:36:32,410 --> 00:36:33,940
ceiling keys.
Yep.

581
00:36:35,260 --> 00:36:36,460
You know.
Yep.

582
00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:43,140
And so I it's it's so it was
around and you have there's the

583
00:36:43,140 --> 00:36:47,860
names.
I know you had Patriarch Judson

584
00:36:47,860 --> 00:36:50,700
Tolman was performing marriages
and got cut off.

585
00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:54,940
You had John John Woolley was
acting as a paid stake patriarch

586
00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:59,580
when he was cut off.
And Perry?

587
00:36:59,820 --> 00:37:02,110
No Sperry.
Patriarch Sperry.

588
00:37:02,110 --> 00:37:04,750
I don't know the first name, but
he was cut off and he's a man.

589
00:37:04,750 --> 00:37:07,350
I want to, I want to research
him later because he, from what

590
00:37:07,350 --> 00:37:09,830
I know he's got, he's got my
curiosity.

591
00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:14,790
So real quick, would you also
say this is about the time when

592
00:37:14,790 --> 00:37:18,310
the when the quorum of the 12
really starts this push to

593
00:37:18,870 --> 00:37:22,030
consolidate power within within
its ranks?

594
00:37:23,350 --> 00:37:26,070
Because keep in mind, the
Doctrine and Covenants really

595
00:37:26,070 --> 00:37:29,390
sets up the quorum of the 12 to
be traveling ministers.

596
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,480
Traveling witnesses, right?
And so it's my understanding,

597
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,680
correct me if I'm wrong here, is
that they weren't supposed to

598
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:42,320
deal with the stakes of Zion
unless given an absolute

599
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:48,880
Commission by the by the 1st
presidency of the Church, By the

600
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,800
President.
So the president of the Church

601
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,680
at this point is now Hebreja
Grant.

602
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,080
Right.
And so the Quorum of the 12 has

603
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,900
all the leeway to go in and fix
anything that they want, right?

604
00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:04,820
Because because Hebrew J Grant
is mostly pretty much against it

605
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:06,980
at this point.
The only exception I'm aware of

606
00:38:07,980 --> 00:38:11,180
personally is a story told by
Rulan Allred later.

607
00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:13,380
And you can find this in
Treasures of Knowledge I think

608
00:38:13,740 --> 00:38:18,700
where the Allred family was
living up in Cardston AB, Canada

609
00:38:19,260 --> 00:38:23,820
and they were building the
Cardston Temple And Byron Harvey

610
00:38:23,820 --> 00:38:28,510
Allred had got his second wife
down in Mexico during the

611
00:38:28,510 --> 00:38:30,750
manifesto days right where it
was like winked out.

612
00:38:30,750 --> 00:38:32,870
I go down to Mexico and have
this done.

613
00:38:33,070 --> 00:38:39,710
So we got a second wife in like
1901 down there in Mexico and by

614
00:38:39,710 --> 00:38:42,070
1923 they were living up in
Cardston.

615
00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:47,910
And according to ruling Allred,
his father, Byron Harvey Allred

616
00:38:47,910 --> 00:38:51,150
went to President Grant at that
dedication and said, hey, look,

617
00:38:51,630 --> 00:38:55,870
this was done by President
Ivan's 22 years ago down there

618
00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:58,540
in Mexico.
Would it be all right if it's

619
00:38:58,540 --> 00:39:01,700
got sanctioned in the temple
here for record, you know and

620
00:39:01,860 --> 00:39:03,900
and apparently he acquiesced to
that.

621
00:39:11,140 --> 00:39:13,900
I just messy is the work that
keeps coming back.

622
00:39:13,900 --> 00:39:19,900
I mean just over and over just
it's it's so full of political

623
00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:22,220
intrigue, right?
I don't know how else to put it.

624
00:39:22,580 --> 00:39:26,740
You have various factors trying
to do certain things and.

625
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,440
You know they're divided against
themselves, right?

626
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,000
I I can only imagine what that
must have been like.

627
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:37,320
Made for some interesting quorum
meetings.

628
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,560
It's just nuts.
Yeah.

629
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:45,120
You have in the 1890s, you have
guys like Moses Thatcher and

630
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:50,080
Mariner Merrill and others who
are saying interesting things

631
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,110
like the day's going to come
when we're going to have to bear

632
00:39:54,110 --> 00:39:57,510
testimony of the resurrected
Joseph Smith and maybe even give

633
00:39:57,510 --> 00:40:03,270
our lives for that testimony or
that Joseph Smith's going to

634
00:40:03,270 --> 00:40:04,590
come back as the one lighting
and strong.

635
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:06,510
That was what, you know, that
was what Moses Thatcher was

636
00:40:06,510 --> 00:40:08,750
starting to allude to, like
right after the after the

637
00:40:08,750 --> 00:40:11,550
Manifesto.
So this idea was.

638
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:16,530
Really set in stone that like,
Joseph's going to come and fix

639
00:40:16,530 --> 00:40:19,610
this right after the manifesto.
This condition isn't even going

640
00:40:19,610 --> 00:40:22,330
to last that long because they
were waiting for that right they

641
00:40:22,330 --> 00:40:25,690
were waiting for because of that
prophecy.

642
00:40:26,490 --> 00:40:28,810
For that statement in the
Doctrine and Covenant said if he

643
00:40:28,810 --> 00:40:33,410
lived to be 85 years old, he'd
see the face of the of the Son

644
00:40:33,410 --> 00:40:35,770
of Man.
But he didn't know if that was a

645
00:40:35,770 --> 00:40:38,970
time where if he lived in in
Christ would come or if it would

646
00:40:38,970 --> 00:40:42,680
be him being resurrected after
he died and then they would meet

647
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,440
or what it would be.
He didn't know, you know?

648
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,160
And people were just hoping for
that because that day that

649
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,440
Joseph Smith would have the the
year that Joseph Smith would

650
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,680
have been 85 years old was from
December 23rd, 1890 to December

651
00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:00,000
23rd, 1891.
So that's right after the

652
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,040
manifesto.
They're just hoping the Lord was

653
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:09,680
going to set his house in order.
And and again, that the the part

654
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,880
that breaks my heart is just
imagining all those folks

655
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,920
waiting around for that to
happen right.

656
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:23,240
For because 40 years up to this
point in history and it still

657
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:27,640
hasn't happened.
Well, and and again, it's not

658
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,000
like they didn't have something
that would give them hope.

659
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,920
I mean, there's a group of
fundamentalists, not really

660
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:35,960
fundamentalists of the time,
but.

661
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:42,920
Group of practicing polygamists
meeting in the temple after

662
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:46,800
having been kind of
disfellowshipped with a member

663
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,840
of the First Presidency and a
member of the First Presidency

664
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,480
saying just keep your records as
you baptize your children

665
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,160
because you're coming back
really quick.

666
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:06,690
Icky it is.
But I I admire the men in the

667
00:42:06,690 --> 00:42:09,290
corner of the 12 who stuck to
their guns on this principle.

668
00:42:09,330 --> 00:42:15,610
Men like Mariner Merrill, Roger
Clawson, George Teasdale, John W

669
00:42:15,610 --> 00:42:18,930
Taylor, Mathias Kelly.
You know those those men are.

670
00:42:19,890 --> 00:42:21,890
I think they're going to be well
rewarded.

671
00:42:22,450 --> 00:42:23,530
Yep.
I think so.

672
00:42:27,250 --> 00:42:33,530
And so as a historical note,
there's been apologetics issued

673
00:42:33,650 --> 00:42:38,950
from within fundamentalism and
from the church standpoint

674
00:42:38,950 --> 00:42:42,750
against certain things regarding
the Lord Woolley Council of

675
00:42:42,750 --> 00:42:49,750
Friends idea.
And I like to think I can

676
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:52,430
compartmentalize a little bit
enough to think not just like a

677
00:42:52,430 --> 00:42:56,070
priest but also like a historian
with a little bit of cynicism

678
00:42:57,910 --> 00:43:00,590
from what it's interesting
because so like for example,

679
00:43:00,590 --> 00:43:04,820
this term high priest apostle
that's gotten Flack in the in

680
00:43:04,820 --> 00:43:06,900
the church, like that's an
office that doesn't exist,

681
00:43:07,180 --> 00:43:07,980
right.
I don't know how much you've

682
00:43:07,980 --> 00:43:09,140
ever heard about that kind of
thing.

683
00:43:09,140 --> 00:43:13,860
I know Brian Hales and probably
Mack Sanderson and others are

684
00:43:13,860 --> 00:43:17,060
probably just like, yeah, that's
just normally making things up.

685
00:43:19,180 --> 00:43:23,020
It's interesting though.
I wonder if it this is an

686
00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:30,420
evolved shorthand or something
else that that for example, at

687
00:43:30,420 --> 00:43:35,040
this point and especially prior
to this point, there had always

688
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:40,120
been an interesting dispute in
jurisdiction between the and

689
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,160
authority between the office of
70 and high Priest.

690
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,600
And I don't know how much you're
aware of that, but there was it

691
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,120
would fluctuate and it was just
people didn't know like who who

692
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:54,800
has more authority in what
situation.

693
00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:00,360
And for example, Brigham Young
tells how when they are filling

694
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,800
up the quorums of the 70s in
Kirtland, some of the men had

695
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,440
who were doing that, ordained
them high priests first.

696
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,720
And according to Brigham Young,
Joseph Smith said that's an

697
00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:17,160
insult to the Holy Priest and to
ordain the 70s high priests

698
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,760
first because this is an office
pertaining to the High Priested.

699
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,640
And therefore those men who were
ordained high priests were put

700
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,120
back into the High Priest
quorum.

701
00:44:27,950 --> 00:44:32,390
And Brigham Young was always of
the opinion that a 70 was an

702
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:38,990
apostle, A70 was an apostle in a
different order of magnitude in

703
00:44:38,990 --> 00:44:40,870
a different quorum.
Yeah.

704
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:44,310
No, that was that was what?
Brigham Young felt and and I

705
00:44:44,310 --> 00:44:47,150
think that the Doctrine and
Covenants does a pretty good job

706
00:44:47,150 --> 00:44:52,230
of bearing that out right.
I mean it it it says that a 70

707
00:44:52,390 --> 00:44:54,700
had.
Pretty much the same

708
00:44:54,700 --> 00:45:00,940
responsibilities as an apostle,
only they took their directions

709
00:45:00,940 --> 00:45:04,500
from the apostles, right?
So there was an order set up

710
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:10,140
there but but they basically had
all the the, the they have the

711
00:45:10,140 --> 00:45:14,260
same charge to bear testimony of
the Savior right.

712
00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:18,100
And my understanding from my
perspective, it's pretty easy to

713
00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:21,620
understand too.
The 70s generally a mission

714
00:45:22,010 --> 00:45:23,690
missionary office.
And so if you're out in the

715
00:45:23,690 --> 00:45:29,290
mission field organizing
branches or wards or stakes as a

716
00:45:29,290 --> 00:45:34,250
70 apostle, you could fill the
role of Bishop, stake president,

717
00:45:34,850 --> 00:45:39,330
whatever you need to, but that
when other high priests or then

718
00:45:39,330 --> 00:45:44,330
are then ordained, they can.
The idea was the high Priested.

719
00:45:45,170 --> 00:45:47,890
And the High Priested wasn't
just used as a synonym for

720
00:45:47,890 --> 00:45:50,980
Melchized Priested.
The high Priested was a synonym

721
00:45:50,980 --> 00:45:53,820
used for the office of high
priest in those early days.

722
00:45:54,060 --> 00:45:58,340
So the office of high priest or
the high Priested was, in my

723
00:45:58,340 --> 00:46:02,780
mind from what I'm reading in my
studies, viewed as a qualifying

724
00:46:02,780 --> 00:46:08,620
office.
And so a qualifying or office

725
00:46:08,620 --> 00:46:11,420
that you could then officiate as
a Bishop, right, or whatever, or

726
00:46:11,420 --> 00:46:13,340
stake president, whatever you
need to be a high priest.

727
00:46:13,580 --> 00:46:15,780
And so that was where the
discrepancy came in, right Is,

728
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:19,570
is a 70 technically qualify?
Well, I think so.

729
00:46:19,730 --> 00:46:22,650
It's just temporary until a high
priest comes along, right.

730
00:46:22,930 --> 00:46:24,130
But there was always this
debate.

731
00:46:24,930 --> 00:46:32,050
And so it's interesting that
Joseph F Smith earlier, before

732
00:46:32,050 --> 00:46:36,770
he died, I found, and I don't
know if George Albert Smith was

733
00:46:36,770 --> 00:46:40,250
a 70.
But what happens is before

734
00:46:40,330 --> 00:46:43,130
George Albert Smith was ordained
an apostle in the Quorum of the

735
00:46:43,130 --> 00:46:49,000
12, Joseph F Smith ordained him
a high priest and then ordained

736
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:54,240
him an apostle.
And so, and I wonder if it was

737
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:57,320
because of this debate going on
in the church, right, is, oh, we

738
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:02,040
need to give you this qualifying
office so that you can preside

739
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,960
legally in a stake of Zion or
whatever, and then we're going

740
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,200
to make you an apostle.
Right.

741
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,840
But then it can't be argued you
never had the high priesthood

742
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:10,960
conferred upon you.
Right.

743
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:12,960
And it's because there's this
debate.

744
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:20,040
Well, I know the Joseph F Smith
was a personal friend of the

745
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:25,880
Woolies and this is where the
dots connect is.

746
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,520
I wonder if that's kind of what
Lauren Woolley, what his game

747
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,560
was with that with a high
priest, apostle and patriarch is

748
00:47:35,720 --> 00:47:38,480
there's this debate, it's
ongoing, it's never ending.

749
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:40,560
We're going to settle this to
bed and we're going to ordain

750
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,160
these men to all three offices.
High Priest, Apostle, Patriarch.

751
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,060
That way you have every
qualifying office to officiate

752
00:47:48,060 --> 00:47:50,260
in whatever way you need to to
build up the Kingdom of God.

753
00:47:50,780 --> 00:47:52,100
I got you.
I got you.

754
00:47:52,100 --> 00:47:55,260
It was to cover your base move.
Yeah.

755
00:47:55,980 --> 00:48:02,660
Yeah.
To make sure that they got every

756
00:48:02,660 --> 00:48:05,700
legal base to preside in
whatever or carry out of work in

757
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:07,820
whatever area the church wasn't
willing to do.

758
00:48:08,100 --> 00:48:09,500
Right.
And so they were ordained

759
00:48:09,500 --> 00:48:13,900
patriarchs because that people
in the, you know, who are being

760
00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:17,060
cut off from the church or
people who are raised as

761
00:48:17,060 --> 00:48:19,660
children in families where their
parents are being cut off from

762
00:48:19,660 --> 00:48:21,860
the church, you're not going to
have access to your state

763
00:48:21,860 --> 00:48:24,180
patriarch anymore, right.
Right.

764
00:48:24,820 --> 00:48:29,740
And so and so, but Anthony H
Lund, as we talked about

765
00:48:29,740 --> 00:48:31,340
earlier, is telling them keep
your records.

766
00:48:31,580 --> 00:48:36,260
And so that in this way
baptisms, priest and

767
00:48:36,260 --> 00:48:38,460
ordinations, patriarchal
blessings can all be done in the

768
00:48:38,460 --> 00:48:41,870
family or through the
administration of of these men

769
00:48:41,870 --> 00:48:44,790
that Lord Willy is calling.
And then it can be handed into

770
00:48:44,790 --> 00:48:49,790
the Church right when the time
comes, right if it ever comes.

771
00:48:49,990 --> 00:48:51,070
That makes sense.
Yeah.

772
00:48:52,070 --> 00:48:59,030
Yeah, so yeah.
On April 6th, 1930, Joseph

773
00:48:59,030 --> 00:49:01,990
Musser was again invited to sit
on the stand with the high

774
00:49:01,990 --> 00:49:06,470
priests in a high priest meeting
or or a ward conference or state

775
00:49:06,470 --> 00:49:08,630
conference.
It looks like it was a ward

776
00:49:08,630 --> 00:49:12,190
conference in the 21st ward,
probably of Salt Lake City, by

777
00:49:12,190 --> 00:49:15,870
Bishop Reynolds, who I'm fairly
certain is Bishop George

778
00:49:15,870 --> 00:49:17,830
Reynolds who was a friend of his
father.

779
00:49:18,590 --> 00:49:23,390
It's a yeah, yeah.
Bishop Reynolds inviting Joseph

780
00:49:23,390 --> 00:49:27,350
Muster to sit with the high
priests, you know, a year after

781
00:49:27,870 --> 00:49:30,550
he's getting called out for
sitting on the stand with the

782
00:49:30,550 --> 00:49:33,270
Bishop and taking the sacrament
in the Yale ward.

783
00:49:33,270 --> 00:49:36,310
Oh.
Man, and and now I I'm like,

784
00:49:36,430 --> 00:49:39,380
okay the.
The intestinal, intestinal

785
00:49:39,380 --> 00:49:44,780
fortitude of some of those
clergy in in those wards to call

786
00:49:44,780 --> 00:49:46,900
them up to sit on the stand,
right.

787
00:49:47,340 --> 00:49:51,740
I mean that's a bold move.
I mean your thumb and your nose

788
00:49:51,820 --> 00:49:56,060
at the at the First Presidency
and the and the quorum of the

789
00:49:56,060 --> 00:49:59,300
12.
I mean, I it's hard to imagine

790
00:49:59,300 --> 00:50:03,500
something like that happening
today within the LDS Church.

791
00:50:05,210 --> 00:50:07,210
I I don't know what I would do
if I saw such a thing.

792
00:50:07,370 --> 00:50:12,970
I don't.
So here's here's some fun stuff.

793
00:50:13,010 --> 00:50:18,650
So we went over last episode how
Jay Golden Kimball and Joseph

794
00:50:18,650 --> 00:50:20,770
Muster had become very close
friends over the years and it

795
00:50:20,770 --> 00:50:22,570
was because of their interaction
in the mission field.

796
00:50:22,610 --> 00:50:26,650
You know Jay Golden Kimball was
serving as mission president in

797
00:50:26,650 --> 00:50:29,770
the Southern States Mission when
Joseph Muster was a young man

798
00:50:29,770 --> 00:50:34,090
and then at that same time when
they were serving together John

799
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,720
that Jay Golden Kimball was then
made a General authority 70,

800
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,120
right.
He was made one of the members

801
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:47,400
of the first council of 70 and
and they remain good friends.

802
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:54,800
And on November 9th, 1930, she
passed away from a fight with

803
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:59,560
cancer and Jay Golden Kimball
was invited to speak at her

804
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:04,430
funeral.
And what he says is inspiring

805
00:51:04,430 --> 00:51:12,270
and very vindicating, I think,
he says I'm here at the request

806
00:51:12,270 --> 00:51:15,670
of Brother Musser, his wife and
children.

807
00:51:16,070 --> 00:51:17,950
And before going on with my
regular remarks on this

808
00:51:17,950 --> 00:51:22,630
occasion, I want to say this
much that I have known Brother

809
00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:26,030
Musser in church and business
activities for a good many

810
00:51:26,030 --> 00:51:30,110
years, and I know him to be an
honest man with great faith and

811
00:51:30,110 --> 00:51:32,750
trust in the Lord and courage in
the cause of truth.

812
00:51:33,590 --> 00:51:36,910
Oh, I know we aren't supposed to
say nothing about this thing,

813
00:51:37,230 --> 00:51:38,910
but we are afraid to tell the
truth.

814
00:51:39,070 --> 00:51:41,310
And it isn't always wise to tell
the whole truth.

815
00:51:41,350 --> 00:51:44,670
But I want to say that Brother
Musser has been unjustly dealt

816
00:51:44,670 --> 00:51:46,670
with.
He has been persecuted.

817
00:51:47,390 --> 00:51:48,910
The principle of polygamy is
true.

818
00:51:49,590 --> 00:51:51,270
Of course.
The door is now closed.

819
00:51:51,590 --> 00:51:53,430
The Church does not sanction the
practice.

820
00:51:53,430 --> 00:51:56,750
Now, I was of that origin and I
am proud of it.

821
00:51:57,510 --> 00:52:00,870
Brother Joseph is a better man
than I am because I cannot help

822
00:52:00,870 --> 00:52:04,180
resenting injustice.
Justice is all right, but I

823
00:52:04,180 --> 00:52:08,500
believe in the gospel of mercy,
love, charity and patience.

824
00:52:09,020 --> 00:52:11,140
If this is not the truth, there
is no truth.

825
00:52:11,820 --> 00:52:13,980
Thank God.
The final judgment does not rest

826
00:52:13,980 --> 00:52:17,420
with man.
Sister Musser has lived a worthy

827
00:52:17,420 --> 00:52:20,460
life and the Lord will reward
her accordingly.

828
00:52:21,300 --> 00:52:24,220
She has suffered a great deal,
you know.

829
00:52:24,220 --> 00:52:27,060
It always seemed a strange thing
to me and I have tried to

830
00:52:27,060 --> 00:52:29,060
understand it.
Why the very best people have to

831
00:52:29,060 --> 00:52:32,490
suffer the most.
I couldn't think it was so until

832
00:52:32,490 --> 00:52:35,250
I saw my mother suffer for years
before the Lord took her.

833
00:52:36,050 --> 00:52:38,690
She was a good woman.
On the other hand, as we go

834
00:52:38,690 --> 00:52:41,770
through life, we find people on
every side who don't care a rap

835
00:52:41,770 --> 00:52:44,090
about their actions and they
seem to prosper in all they

836
00:52:44,090 --> 00:52:48,490
attempt, while good folk like
Sister Musser have to suffer

837
00:52:48,530 --> 00:52:52,410
untold pain and hardships.
Sister Musser worked for a great

838
00:52:52,410 --> 00:52:55,130
reward and now I think it was a
great blessing for her to be

839
00:52:55,130 --> 00:52:57,450
called home and be relieved of
her suffering.

840
00:53:00,330 --> 00:53:04,890
Wow.
And and good for for for Jay

841
00:53:04,890 --> 00:53:07,930
Golden, right?
I mean, because he's probably

842
00:53:07,930 --> 00:53:09,730
putting his neck on the line a
little bit.

843
00:53:10,210 --> 00:53:13,690
But all all of this that we just
talked about muster being

844
00:53:13,690 --> 00:53:17,850
invited to sit on the stand.
His association with higher ups

845
00:53:17,850 --> 00:53:21,770
in the church in the early
1900s, Jay Golden Kimball coming

846
00:53:21,770 --> 00:53:27,490
to to speak at his wife's
funeral, Everybody seems to be

847
00:53:27,490 --> 00:53:31,480
able to recognize.
The goodness that muster seems

848
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:38,440
to exude all the way through,
all the way through to the point

849
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,760
that that people are willing to
kind of stick their neck out on

850
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:49,360
the line a little bit to to show
that goodness they they valued a

851
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:52,920
friendship with him more than
they valued church discipline at

852
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:59,500
this point.
And it seems such a far cry

853
00:53:59,500 --> 00:54:03,420
because I can't imagine anything
like that happening now, right?

854
00:54:03,420 --> 00:54:09,700
Like it's just, oh, how we've
fallen to a large degree, right?

855
00:54:09,700 --> 00:54:15,100
I mean, we we have, we've
sacrificed principle on the

856
00:54:15,100 --> 00:54:19,500
altar of the church's good name.
I don't.

857
00:54:19,500 --> 00:54:23,330
I don't know if it was you and I
talking, and we brought this up

858
00:54:23,330 --> 00:54:25,490
one time or someone else said it
and I heard it.

859
00:54:25,490 --> 00:54:32,370
But it's like from this point to
now, the shift in importance.

860
00:54:32,410 --> 00:54:35,090
Like if you were to take the
most important subject in Mormon

861
00:54:35,850 --> 00:54:40,570
doctrine, there was a shift from
it being plural marriage to like

862
00:54:40,570 --> 00:54:43,090
now the most emphasized thing in
the Church is the Word of

863
00:54:43,090 --> 00:54:45,330
Wisdom.
Right, Yeah.

864
00:54:46,330 --> 00:54:48,410
Yeah.
Well, which technically speaking

865
00:54:48,410 --> 00:54:52,270
isn't even a commandment by
scriptural, you know, analysis,

866
00:54:52,430 --> 00:54:56,590
right?
And so you've totally focused.

867
00:54:56,670 --> 00:55:00,510
Or you, you've you've switched
the gears from what Joseph Smith

868
00:55:01,030 --> 00:55:04,230
was recorded as saying was the
most holy principle ever

869
00:55:04,230 --> 00:55:09,630
revealed to something That is
advice, good advice for your

870
00:55:09,630 --> 00:55:12,510
body, you.
Be by way of the be all end all

871
00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:16,870
thing because it it reflects
your what you look like socially

872
00:55:16,910 --> 00:55:18,590
I guess, right?
If you don't drink, you don't

873
00:55:18,590 --> 00:55:23,060
smoke, you don't, you know,
well, you know, you don't do

874
00:55:23,060 --> 00:55:26,380
those things that you know.
You look like you're a good

875
00:55:26,380 --> 00:55:28,020
person, so you're a good person.
I don't know.

876
00:55:28,580 --> 00:55:30,620
No, no, that's that's exactly
right.

877
00:55:31,100 --> 00:55:36,180
And and it was all about outward
appearance somewhere, somewhere

878
00:55:36,180 --> 00:55:40,740
along the way.
Boy, am I going to cheat for

879
00:55:40,740 --> 00:55:43,860
this next statement.
Somewhere along the way, the LDS

880
00:55:43,860 --> 00:55:48,500
Church picked up the Pharisee
baton and ran with it really

881
00:55:48,500 --> 00:55:51,090
well.
Right, all about outward

882
00:55:51,090 --> 00:55:58,930
expressions, outward appearances
instead of looking in at the

883
00:55:58,930 --> 00:56:02,890
heart.
So I've heard, for example, that

884
00:56:04,090 --> 00:56:06,890
Joe Brigham Young, I know this
pretty well, but Brigham Young

885
00:56:06,890 --> 00:56:08,770
chewed tobacco until the last 10
years of his life.

886
00:56:08,930 --> 00:56:11,050
I think he was able to kick it
as.

887
00:56:11,050 --> 00:56:13,970
But as far as I know, Joseph F
Smith also chewed tobacco.

888
00:56:14,050 --> 00:56:16,210
Probably until the day he died.
He just did a really good job of

889
00:56:16,210 --> 00:56:18,330
hiding it.
Yeah.

890
00:56:18,770 --> 00:56:21,330
Yeah.
Well and but and every every

891
00:56:21,330 --> 00:56:24,490
general authority had a bottle
of wine or Brandy or something

892
00:56:24,650 --> 00:56:29,010
you know in their liquor cat.
You know up until this point

893
00:56:29,010 --> 00:56:31,850
practically you know and then
the Heber J.

894
00:56:31,850 --> 00:56:35,650
Grant makes it this oh, we're
going to make this Word of

895
00:56:35,650 --> 00:56:39,690
Wisdom thing like this is the
stamp of of godliness.

896
00:56:40,330 --> 00:56:42,930
But but here's the thing.
Do you know where that comes

897
00:56:42,970 --> 00:56:46,770
from, Michael?
This the prohibition.

898
00:56:47,720 --> 00:56:50,040
Yeah, prohibition is just
getting going.

899
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:56,800
It is a sign of virtue.
It is the IT is the new boy.

900
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,400
I'm on one tonight.
I'm really going to get hammered

901
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,920
here.
It is the new.

902
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,160
It's the old version of having
that circle around your head on

903
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,240
Facebook that says I got my
vaccine.

904
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:11,320
Right.
That's what it is.

905
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,360
It's the it's the it's the the
it's the first sign of virtue

906
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:20,040
signaling, I think that we have
within the LDS church and it

907
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,560
there's a funny switch that
happens that that that becomes

908
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:28,800
the point of emphasis instead of
all of these deeper doctrines,

909
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:34,520
these mysteries of godliness, it
now goes to something that's way

910
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:39,360
more outward looking.
Mormonism used to focus on the

911
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:46,520
idea of I want to learn how God
became God and then that's not

912
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,280
where we're at anymore.
No, that's not no, But that's

913
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:51,360
it, right?
That's the question.

914
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:55,280
That's the question of life is
how did God become God, and how

915
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,320
do we do it?
Yep, Yep.

916
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,160
No, I agree.
I agree wholeheartedly.

917
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:05,280
It's so frustrating to watch
because The thing is, is that

918
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:10,460
now?
It's like watching the Star Wars

919
00:58:10,460 --> 00:58:13,980
prequels, right?
Palpatine coming up and you're

920
00:58:13,980 --> 00:58:17,460
like, don't do it, don't do it.
But you know it's coming, right?

921
00:58:17,460 --> 00:58:18,860
There's nothing you can do about
it.

922
00:58:18,860 --> 00:58:20,700
We just get to sit back and
watch now.

923
00:58:21,620 --> 00:58:25,940
Well we can carry on and try to
help people understand these

924
00:58:26,180 --> 00:58:32,260
these principles were revealed
and they're not lost but they're

925
00:58:32,300 --> 00:58:36,010
they're they're to the truth and
we have men like Joseph Musser

926
00:58:36,010 --> 00:58:40,650
who fought valiantly to preserve
it for us in this day if we want

927
00:58:40,650 --> 00:58:46,770
to seek it.
So another note Frank why Taylor

928
00:58:47,210 --> 00:58:49,410
was also there at that funeral
and spoke at it.

929
00:58:49,450 --> 00:58:52,330
We I I very much wish I had what
he said.

930
00:58:55,370 --> 00:58:59,650
Frank Why Taylor?
Also, I don't know if we covered

931
00:58:59,650 --> 00:59:05,400
the this already or not, but
Frank why Taylor was responsible

932
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:09,120
for what we now know in the
church as family home Evening.

933
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:11,360
Really.
Yeah.

934
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:16,320
Post Post manifesto, Polygamist
is responsible for one of the

935
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,120
biggest programs in the family
environment of the church.

936
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:21,880
You know that you get together
on your Monday night or

937
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:25,520
Wednesday night or whatever and
have a gospel devotional in your

938
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,880
in your living room, right.
But that was an idea that was

939
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,440
started.
It was a movement started by

940
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,480
Frank Why Taylor when he was
stake president in granite steak

941
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,600
And it caught on.
It caught on like wildfire, you

942
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,240
know.
Now, not that we'll ever his

943
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,880
idea.
Not that we'll ever get a chance

944
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:49,120
to know what he was thinking,
but looking back, family home

945
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,560
evening is a very fundamental
with kind of practice, right?

946
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:55,560
You're going to practice the
gospel at home.

947
00:59:56,570 --> 01:00:02,090
And it it makes me wonder if he
didn't have that kind of thought

948
01:00:02,090 --> 01:00:05,130
process in mind as he was
developing this idea.

949
01:00:07,530 --> 01:00:09,810
Yeah, he was.
And I don't know if we covered

950
01:00:09,810 --> 01:00:16,250
this earlier or not, but he was.
He was given the original copy

951
01:00:16,410 --> 01:00:20,170
of the 1886 revelation by his
brother John W Taylor after he

952
01:00:20,170 --> 01:00:26,050
found it for safekeeping, and
John W Taylor wrote copies and

953
01:00:26,050 --> 01:00:27,930
then would bring them to the
Quorum of the 12.

954
01:00:27,930 --> 01:00:35,690
There was at least two meetings
in 1891 where John W Taylor

955
01:00:36,450 --> 01:00:40,170
takes the 1886 revelation to the
Quorum of the 12, and they're

956
01:00:40,170 --> 01:00:41,850
talking about it.
There was at least two around

957
01:00:41,850 --> 01:00:44,490
that time period.
Well, Frank, why?

958
01:00:44,490 --> 01:00:49,850
Taylor had the original right.
And eventually it made its way

959
01:00:49,850 --> 01:00:54,030
into church archives through
Frank Taylor.

960
01:00:54,190 --> 01:00:54,910
Frank.
Yeah.

961
01:00:54,910 --> 01:00:57,150
Frank Taylor.
All right.

962
01:00:57,150 --> 01:01:03,150
So after this point in time,
Joseph Muster starts writing

963
01:01:03,150 --> 01:01:08,670
books and he becomes pretty much
the the John Taylor of early

964
01:01:08,670 --> 01:01:11,270
Mormonism.
For for Mormon fundamentalism.

965
01:01:11,590 --> 01:01:14,990
He had John Taylor who would
write all those, you know, the

966
01:01:14,990 --> 01:01:19,390
Times and Seasons articles for,
you know, in the Nauvoo period

967
01:01:19,390 --> 01:01:21,230
or the millennial star,
whatever.

968
01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:24,910
And he even in the early Utah
period, you know John Taylor was

969
01:01:24,910 --> 01:01:27,270
involved with a magazine which
was just simply called the

970
01:01:27,270 --> 01:01:30,750
Mormon and he was writing that
out of Boston when he was on a

971
01:01:30,750 --> 01:01:33,910
mission in Boston.
It's a Joseph Masters pretty

972
01:01:33,910 --> 01:01:37,510
much taken on that role on this
priesthood council and they're

973
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:43,670
publishing all the books at all
these sources based stating what

974
01:01:43,710 --> 01:01:47,230
the position what the what, what
was their position right in the

975
01:01:47,230 --> 01:01:50,270
day where the church is getting
further and further away from

976
01:01:50,910 --> 01:01:54,530
core principles.
And we learned that by about

977
01:01:54,530 --> 01:02:00,090
August 14th 1934.
Joseph, you know, he's he's

978
01:02:00,090 --> 01:02:02,250
writing in this journal that,
you know, bishops are basically

979
01:02:02,250 --> 01:02:05,170
saying to the members of the
award, don't even read this

980
01:02:05,170 --> 01:02:07,610
material.
If you get it, just go and burn

981
01:02:07,610 --> 01:02:12,050
it, throw it in the fire.
That was the precursor to

982
01:02:12,050 --> 01:02:14,450
strengthening the Church Members
Committee, I believe.

983
01:02:14,970 --> 01:02:17,970
I'm just joking.
No, that you're you're probably

984
01:02:17,970 --> 01:02:23,530
right.
You ever see that meme floating

985
01:02:23,530 --> 01:02:28,290
around that's like, it's like
what is it Monty Python.

986
01:02:28,890 --> 01:02:30,930
One of the Monty Python deals.
Right?

987
01:02:30,930 --> 01:02:34,130
Where it's like no one expects
the Spanish Inquisition.

988
01:02:34,130 --> 01:02:37,530
But it's it was instead, it's No
one suspects the strengthening

989
01:02:37,530 --> 01:02:40,090
the members of the Church
Committee, you know?

990
01:02:40,730 --> 01:02:42,850
That's what happened, right?
No, that's pretty much what that

991
01:02:42,850 --> 01:02:46,450
turned into.
You know and and here.

992
01:02:46,970 --> 01:02:48,490
Here's.
I'm probably going to get a call

993
01:02:48,490 --> 01:02:49,170
from them.
Here's.

994
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,880
Yeah, you know here's here's
another interesting thing is

995
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:58,840
that it's during the same time
period that that one question

996
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:05,480
pops up about on your temple
recommended interview about do

997
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,680
you sustain.
So and so is the only person

998
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:13,360
hereby authorized to exercise
all the keys, rights, and

999
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,760
whatever as President of the
Church.

1000
01:03:17,910 --> 01:03:21,350
This is that time period where
that question is first put on

1001
01:03:21,630 --> 01:03:29,310
the recommend.
Yeah, no doubt by by about 1933

1002
01:03:29,310 --> 01:03:33,190
to 35, the persecution really
sets in and you start having

1003
01:03:33,190 --> 01:03:38,670
people like Charles zitting and
others getting arrested.

1004
01:03:40,070 --> 01:03:46,270
In fact, by March 24th, 1935, a
new law declaring unlawful

1005
01:03:46,270 --> 01:03:50,390
cohabitation to be a felony
instead of a misdemeanor because

1006
01:03:50,390 --> 01:03:52,990
it was because the federal
government only ever made it a

1007
01:03:52,990 --> 01:03:55,950
misdemeanor, Okay.
Now they made it so that

1008
01:03:56,670 --> 01:03:59,710
misdemeanors could stack up.
You could have one misdemeanor

1009
01:03:59,710 --> 01:04:02,430
for unlawful cohabitation for
each wife you were caught

1010
01:04:02,430 --> 01:04:07,950
unlawfully cohabitating with.
But no, it was made a new law

1011
01:04:07,950 --> 01:04:11,910
that that was made a felony,
which was prepared by a future

1012
01:04:11,910 --> 01:04:14,030
apostle of the Quorum of the 12,
Hugh B.

1013
01:04:14,030 --> 01:04:18,630
Brown, who was currently the
president of Granite Stake,

1014
01:04:19,070 --> 01:04:23,670
which was the former stake that
Joseph F Smith had set up to be

1015
01:04:24,070 --> 01:04:28,870
a safe haven for post manifesto
polygamy and took Frank why

1016
01:04:28,870 --> 01:04:30,950
Taylor's place as stake as stake
president there?

1017
01:04:31,710 --> 01:04:35,030
So now you got Hugh B.
Brown, who's writing this law

1018
01:04:35,150 --> 01:04:39,590
that changes it to be even worse
than it was under the federal

1019
01:04:39,590 --> 01:04:44,180
government.
And the irony of that too, It's

1020
01:04:44,180 --> 01:04:49,740
sad in about 1909, the, you
know, the same year that Joseph

1021
01:04:49,740 --> 01:04:53,940
Muster was getting called in
for, No, get around that time

1022
01:04:53,940 --> 01:04:55,100
that he's getting called in,
right?

1023
01:04:55,500 --> 01:04:57,100
Hugh B.
Brown was getting off from his

1024
01:04:57,100 --> 01:05:00,460
mission, probably in England
somewhere, I'm not entirely

1025
01:05:00,460 --> 01:05:03,100
sure.
And he meets up with with

1026
01:05:03,100 --> 01:05:06,740
apostle John W Taylor and John W
Taylor.

1027
01:05:06,900 --> 01:05:11,750
Straight out the gate is telling
QB Brown, look you should take

1028
01:05:11,750 --> 01:05:13,870
two wives now instead of just
marrying one.

1029
01:05:14,070 --> 01:05:16,510
You can have both of those girls
that you got your eye on.

1030
01:05:16,510 --> 01:05:18,430
You don't have to choose between
them, right?

1031
01:05:20,790 --> 01:05:22,670
That's awesome.
And but he didn't.

1032
01:05:22,790 --> 01:05:24,870
He did.
But it's it's it's interesting

1033
01:05:24,870 --> 01:05:28,230
though that that that was a
meeting and that was something

1034
01:05:28,230 --> 01:05:31,390
that John W Taylor tried.
He tried to get QB Brown into

1035
01:05:31,390 --> 01:05:33,230
the principal, but he wasn't
having it.

1036
01:05:34,470 --> 01:05:37,390
And as another historical
footnote, though, it appears

1037
01:05:37,630 --> 01:05:45,930
that Roland Jeffs from the
future FLDS, his first wife,

1038
01:05:46,010 --> 01:05:48,170
Zola Brown, was the daughter of
Hugh B.

1039
01:05:48,170 --> 01:05:49,850
Brown.
Ouch.

1040
01:05:51,290 --> 01:05:52,450
Yeah.
That's that one.

1041
01:05:52,450 --> 01:05:55,010
It's interesting.
It's so interesting.

1042
01:05:57,330 --> 01:06:03,690
April April 30, 1935 Joseph
Musser and priest of council go

1043
01:06:03,690 --> 01:06:06,530
down to Short Creek and that's
kind of when the the Short Creek

1044
01:06:06,530 --> 01:06:10,210
colonization starts happening
and they're giving the brethren

1045
01:06:10,210 --> 01:06:12,770
who have gone down there and
start to who started colonizing

1046
01:06:13,050 --> 01:06:17,130
instructions on how to do true
order of prayer meetings and

1047
01:06:17,770 --> 01:06:20,650
start united order type work
down there.

1048
01:06:21,490 --> 01:06:23,530
So Michael, I have a quick
question for you.

1049
01:06:25,450 --> 01:06:30,290
Up to this point, it seems like
Musser's major thrust has been

1050
01:06:30,290 --> 01:06:33,050
plural marriage, Right?
Right.

1051
01:06:34,290 --> 01:06:37,010
Is there a point in Musser's
life where he begins to

1052
01:06:37,010 --> 01:06:40,060
recognize?
OK, there's been some other

1053
01:06:40,060 --> 01:06:42,100
stuff now that's been on the
chopping block.

1054
01:06:42,100 --> 01:06:44,500
And now as fundamentalist, we're
going to have to keep that alive

1055
01:06:44,500 --> 01:06:46,380
as well.
All right.

1056
01:06:46,460 --> 01:06:48,100
Thank you so much for bringing
that up.

1057
01:06:48,100 --> 01:06:50,020
That's a fantastic thing to
bring up.

1058
01:06:50,020 --> 01:06:57,820
Now, I have a personal opinion
that Joseph Musser might really

1059
01:06:57,820 --> 01:07:00,700
be the man we should be thanking
for the perpetuation of the Adam

1060
01:07:00,700 --> 01:07:05,620
God doctrine within and without
church circles because it hadn't

1061
01:07:05,620 --> 01:07:07,900
been perpetuated and
fundamentalism, it probably

1062
01:07:07,900 --> 01:07:12,060
wouldn't have been bled through
to LDS circles so much.

1063
01:07:12,340 --> 01:07:13,940
And I'll tell you, I'll tell you
something funny.

1064
01:07:14,220 --> 01:07:17,660
I know for a fact and I hope the
the strengthening the members

1065
01:07:17,660 --> 01:07:22,020
committee is listening to this.
I know for a fact that there is

1066
01:07:22,020 --> 01:07:26,300
an Adam, God cult among the
elders in every single mission

1067
01:07:27,260 --> 01:07:31,300
across where the LDS Church can
can, you know, run its fingers

1068
01:07:31,300 --> 01:07:35,220
through.
Because I know that no elders

1069
01:07:35,220 --> 01:07:38,860
who know who will kind of lay
those breadcrumb trails to the

1070
01:07:38,860 --> 01:07:43,660
other elders and see who else is
kind of interested in talking

1071
01:07:43,660 --> 01:07:46,940
about some deep doctrine.
And we thought we found each

1072
01:07:46,940 --> 01:07:50,740
other, we found who we were who,
and some people weren't willing

1073
01:07:50,740 --> 01:07:54,060
to entertain it whatsoever.
And then you had a few, a very,

1074
01:07:54,460 --> 01:07:57,500
very small few, who are like,
what do you think Brigham Young

1075
01:07:57,500 --> 01:07:59,980
meant when he said this?
Or how do you reconcile this

1076
01:07:59,980 --> 01:08:02,780
with Jesus being Jehovah?
You know, all these things.

1077
01:08:02,820 --> 01:08:06,130
And so you and you have these
discussions and they were fun.

1078
01:08:06,210 --> 01:08:06,970
They were fun.
I had it.

1079
01:08:06,970 --> 01:08:11,130
I probably had that discussion
with, I want to say, probably

1080
01:08:11,130 --> 01:08:13,130
around four other elders in my
mission.

1081
01:08:13,730 --> 01:08:17,529
Really.
Yeah, big time.

1082
01:08:17,569 --> 01:08:21,250
Who are supportive, you know, of
of, you know, actual discussions

1083
01:08:21,250 --> 01:08:24,450
not just like in passing like
what do you think about, you

1084
01:08:24,450 --> 01:08:28,609
know or wow, isn't it crazy that
Brigham Young thought that Adam

1085
01:08:28,609 --> 01:08:30,170
was God?
Like it wasn't like like

1086
01:08:30,170 --> 01:08:35,700
probably 4 for people who who
were able to really talk about

1087
01:08:35,700 --> 01:08:38,500
like how how does this work,
right.

1088
01:08:39,180 --> 01:08:41,979
You know, without without us
flying the glass, right.

1089
01:08:41,979 --> 01:08:44,060
As Joseph Smith would say,
right.

1090
01:08:45,020 --> 01:08:48,899
And so yeah, I don't, I don't
know, I don't see that being a

1091
01:08:48,899 --> 01:08:54,140
doc and talked about in the
early in any documents that are

1092
01:08:54,140 --> 01:08:57,500
showing what happened in the
early early, early or proto

1093
01:08:57,500 --> 01:09:03,310
fundamentalist days.
But but Joseph Musser was a big

1094
01:09:04,149 --> 01:09:10,189
supporter of that and I think he
was also kind of responsible for

1095
01:09:10,189 --> 01:09:13,790
the circulation of the idea that
not only was Joseph Smith the

1096
01:09:13,790 --> 01:09:17,149
one mighty and strong in in
fundamentalism, but that he was

1097
01:09:17,149 --> 01:09:21,630
also representative of God the
Third, the Witness and

1098
01:09:21,630 --> 01:09:26,270
Attestator or the Holy Ghost.
And that's a whole other kind of

1099
01:09:26,270 --> 01:09:29,500
worms and and I have some
sermons and we're going to read

1100
01:09:29,500 --> 01:09:31,899
it but we're going to read some
commentary from Joseph Smith,

1101
01:09:31,939 --> 01:09:35,340
Joseph Musser on that.
But I don't know if we can go

1102
01:09:35,340 --> 01:09:41,540
too far down that road but I do.
I do think that that his his God

1103
01:09:41,540 --> 01:09:46,380
had theology was was the Adam or
Michael the Archangel was the

1104
01:09:46,380 --> 01:09:49,819
father of Jesus Christ and
occupied the the position of God

1105
01:09:49,819 --> 01:09:52,939
the first or the Creator and
Jesus Christ was God the Second

1106
01:09:53,060 --> 01:09:56,020
the Savior and Redeemer.
And then Joseph Smith was the

1107
01:09:56,020 --> 01:10:01,140
witness in the testator, or God
the 3rd, and we're going to read

1108
01:10:01,140 --> 01:10:03,460
some of those statements.
Do you get a sense of when

1109
01:10:03,460 --> 01:10:07,460
Musser wakes up to the fact of,
oh, we have to preserve that too

1110
01:10:07,460 --> 01:10:09,340
because it's on the chopping
block as well?

1111
01:10:10,140 --> 01:10:13,460
Is there a certain period in his
life where it where it becomes

1112
01:10:13,980 --> 01:10:18,620
obvious to him?
Well, he publishes a book called

1113
01:10:18,620 --> 01:10:25,650
Michael Our Father in Our God.
And I believe it was he started

1114
01:10:25,650 --> 01:10:28,130
to write.
He had it as sections and he had

1115
01:10:28,130 --> 01:10:36,650
it published in parts in Truth
magazine from like 1935 or 36

1116
01:10:37,050 --> 01:10:40,090
till about 1938.
And that was coming out

1117
01:10:40,090 --> 01:10:43,810
periodically.
And then later he had it as a

1118
01:10:43,810 --> 01:10:46,850
full book and he had a second
edition that was all of that

1119
01:10:46,850 --> 01:10:48,770
material.
But then it was expanded I think

1120
01:10:49,770 --> 01:10:51,770
as well.
Because.

1121
01:10:52,420 --> 01:10:57,500
And so by by about 19, by 1940,
he was for sure that book was

1122
01:10:57,500 --> 01:10:59,180
out.
You know that the full book was

1123
01:10:59,180 --> 01:11:02,620
out by 1940 or so.
So we can say by 1940 he

1124
01:11:02,620 --> 01:11:07,740
understood he was going to have
to bear bear testimony not only

1125
01:11:07,740 --> 01:11:11,180
of plural marriage, but of many
other things that were taught by

1126
01:11:11,180 --> 01:11:16,380
the early Brethren.
Oh yeah, The 1940 is when he, I

1127
01:11:16,380 --> 01:11:18,300
think he really starts figuring
some stuff out.

1128
01:11:18,300 --> 01:11:21,180
I think, I mean, I I know he
knew what the Adam God doctrine

1129
01:11:21,180 --> 01:11:23,900
was before that because he's
obviously riding the periodicals

1130
01:11:23,900 --> 01:11:28,740
in about 1935 or 6.
But he that's the decade where

1131
01:11:28,740 --> 01:11:33,420
Joseph Musser really gets the
the feet, you know, his feet on

1132
01:11:33,420 --> 01:11:36,500
and can stand up real, real,
real tall in the work that he's

1133
01:11:36,500 --> 01:11:38,460
doing.
You know, and and.

1134
01:11:38,580 --> 01:11:40,900
And here's the thing about the
Adam God doctrine, right?

1135
01:11:40,900 --> 01:11:44,060
We can see how it falls out of
vogue, if you will.

1136
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:48,560
With with the LDS Church,
because Brigham hits it hard.

1137
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:55,640
I mean Brigham, he lays it down
when he gets to Utah and a lot

1138
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:58,280
of people sign up for it and a
lot of people disagree with it.

1139
01:12:00,440 --> 01:12:04,840
And Taylor hit it hard.
And then again in Woodruff's

1140
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:07,480
time, he says, you know what,
stop worrying about it.

1141
01:12:07,480 --> 01:12:09,440
Let's stop making this point of
discussion.

1142
01:12:10,040 --> 01:12:13,490
And again.
As I affectionately like to

1143
01:12:13,490 --> 01:12:20,170
refer to Hebridge, a grant is
that SOB he he he ends up.

1144
01:12:20,570 --> 01:12:22,530
It's under Grant's
administration, if I'm not

1145
01:12:22,530 --> 01:12:28,930
mistaken, that Jesus the Christ
is commissioned, Jesus the

1146
01:12:28,930 --> 01:12:33,490
Christ is commissioned, and
Hebridge a grant has John A

1147
01:12:33,530 --> 01:12:35,770
Wood.
So compile a very good book.

1148
01:12:35,770 --> 01:12:37,810
By the way, I'll recommend this
book to anyone.

1149
01:12:38,250 --> 01:12:43,440
That's called Discourses of
Brigham Young, and it's all

1150
01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:47,280
sorts of just snippets organized
by topic taken right out of the

1151
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:49,640
Journal of Discourses.
But they're not full sermons.

1152
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,640
And the problem is that Heber J.
Grant and Johnny would so kind

1153
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:57,280
of collaborated and basically
they came to an agreement and

1154
01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:00,480
you can read this in Heber J
Grant's diary that they didn't

1155
01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:02,360
want to include the out of God
stuff.

1156
01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:06,040
Yeah, yeah.
And and so that was very

1157
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:08,840
consciously taken out.
And and I'm going to make a

1158
01:13:08,840 --> 01:13:12,240
statement here that.
Again, isn't going to sit well

1159
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,640
with a lot of people, but you
knew what you were signing up

1160
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:21,480
for when you start listening
with, with, with, with Jesus the

1161
01:13:21,480 --> 01:13:24,320
Christ.
I don't know how else to put

1162
01:13:24,320 --> 01:13:28,160
this, but it's it's modern.
I shouldn't say modern day.

1163
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:32,600
It's the first time we see
Mormonism go through an

1164
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,520
Orwellian 1984.
Kind of.

1165
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:43,180
We've always been.
About Jesus is Jehovah, right?

1166
01:13:43,500 --> 01:13:46,460
We've always we've always been
at war with East Asia and not

1167
01:13:46,460 --> 01:13:48,020
Eurasia.
Right.

1168
01:13:48,100 --> 01:13:50,140
Right.
And and this is the first time

1169
01:13:50,380 --> 01:13:52,940
and now let's carry this forward
because I think it's important

1170
01:13:52,940 --> 01:13:57,180
that we show ties to modern day
right in in in these kinds of

1171
01:13:57,180 --> 01:14:01,300
conversations when Russell M
Nelson comes out just a couple

1172
01:14:01,300 --> 01:14:06,140
years after the I'm a Mormon
campaign and says every time you

1173
01:14:06,140 --> 01:14:10,580
use the word Mormon.
It's a victory for, yeah.

1174
01:14:11,020 --> 01:14:14,660
It's the same thing.
It's the same 1984 or William

1175
01:14:14,660 --> 01:14:21,740
New Speak that we saw first
incarnated in in Jesus the

1176
01:14:21,740 --> 01:14:23,820
Christ.
Now, I know that that book is

1177
01:14:23,820 --> 01:14:26,500
near and dear to a lot of
people's hearts, and I'm not

1178
01:14:26,500 --> 01:14:31,820
saying it's all bad, but make no
Make no mistake, that is the

1179
01:14:31,820 --> 01:14:36,100
first time the LDS Church tries
to redefine the Godhead.

1180
01:14:36,580 --> 01:14:39,020
And unfortunately, it's really
successful.

1181
01:14:40,740 --> 01:14:44,340
Unfortunately, it is.
And it's the problem with that

1182
01:14:44,340 --> 01:14:48,060
book is that I made a very
categorical statement that was

1183
01:14:48,060 --> 01:14:52,700
unsubstantiated, which was we
assert by scriptural authority

1184
01:14:52,900 --> 01:14:56,660
that Jesus Christ is the Jehovah
of the Old Testament.

1185
01:14:57,100 --> 01:15:01,420
That's what it says.
And it's absolutely not true.

1186
01:15:01,420 --> 01:15:03,500
That's not the way the early
Brethren understood it.

1187
01:15:03,500 --> 01:15:05,100
It's not the way Joseph Smith
understood it.

1188
01:15:05,100 --> 01:15:06,660
It's not the way Brigham Young
understood it.

1189
01:15:08,660 --> 01:15:11,700
It's not even the way the
Hebrews at the time of Christ

1190
01:15:11,700 --> 01:15:13,380
understood it.
If you read the New Testament

1191
01:15:13,700 --> 01:15:18,340
and they're calling Jehovah the
Father of Christ.

1192
01:15:19,220 --> 01:15:24,140
Right, right.
And those were the guys that

1193
01:15:24,140 --> 01:15:27,900
knew Jesus, right?
I mean, those were the guys who

1194
01:15:27,900 --> 01:15:30,740
who hung out with the man,
right?

1195
01:15:30,740 --> 01:15:34,180
And so you can get into the
rabbit hole of like, OK, what

1196
01:15:34,180 --> 01:15:35,940
does Jehovah mean?
What language is it?

1197
01:15:35,940 --> 01:15:38,140
OK, It's Hebrew.
When did Hebrew even exist as a

1198
01:15:38,140 --> 01:15:39,100
language?
Right.

1199
01:15:39,780 --> 01:15:43,180
What language was most even
speaking when he had the

1200
01:15:43,180 --> 01:15:44,820
Hebrews.
Right or the Israelites.

1201
01:15:44,820 --> 01:15:45,900
Right.
The 10.

1202
01:15:45,900 --> 01:15:49,420
You know, the scriptures, right?
What was that?

1203
01:15:49,420 --> 01:15:52,260
You know, Joseph Smith tells us
that the name for God and the

1204
01:15:52,260 --> 01:15:56,980
pure language is almond, right?
That's not Jehovah, right?

1205
01:15:57,220 --> 01:15:59,480
And so it's.
And Brigham Young addresses

1206
01:15:59,480 --> 01:16:01,200
that.
There's one discourse of his I

1207
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:05,920
absolutely love where he says we
begin at the beginning with the

1208
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:10,840
Father and God of our Savior,
Jesus Christ, who is he?

1209
01:16:11,440 --> 01:16:16,360
He has been known by one title
and name today and one title and

1210
01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:20,680
name at it by another people at
another time, You know, it's all

1211
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:22,600
been different.
You know, it's all he's been

1212
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:26,440
known by one name at one time,
one people at another time by a

1213
01:16:26,440 --> 01:16:30,340
different name, And there and he
says, and there he leaves it.

1214
01:16:30,540 --> 01:16:34,620
But if I were to expressly lay
this out to you, according to my

1215
01:16:34,620 --> 01:16:38,540
understanding, you know, there'd
be a lot of people here who are

1216
01:16:38,540 --> 01:16:40,340
upset.
But I'll tell you that when you

1217
01:16:40,340 --> 01:16:44,660
see Michael the Archangel
blowing his trumpet, you'll be

1218
01:16:44,660 --> 01:16:46,900
satisfied with all the judgment
that you'll ever get.

1219
01:16:47,380 --> 01:16:49,260
You know that that's what he
says in a nutshell.

1220
01:16:49,860 --> 01:16:56,660
And so, but so we have all these
names of deity, right?

1221
01:16:56,660 --> 01:16:58,540
You have Jehovah, you have El
Shadai.

1222
01:16:58,620 --> 01:17:02,500
You know El Alay on.
You know El Alay on means God

1223
01:17:02,500 --> 01:17:04,860
Most High.
El Shadai means God Almighty.

1224
01:17:06,780 --> 01:17:11,460
Elohim.
Are all those different gods?

1225
01:17:12,140 --> 01:17:17,740
No, they're they were divine
titles or epithets for God the

1226
01:17:17,740 --> 01:17:21,690
Father, right?
Or any exalted Father, you know,

1227
01:17:21,690 --> 01:17:24,450
and that's that I like to refer
to the gods by that term.

1228
01:17:24,530 --> 01:17:26,850
Exalted father or exalted
fathers.

1229
01:17:27,370 --> 01:17:30,130
Yeah.
Because that way, if you

1230
01:17:30,130 --> 01:17:35,050
understand that it's a family
unit to have God the Father come

1231
01:17:35,050 --> 01:17:38,690
down as a mortal man to provide
mortal tabernacles for his

1232
01:17:38,690 --> 01:17:42,970
spirit children and then you can
have one of the other exalted

1233
01:17:42,970 --> 01:17:46,810
fathers occupy his spot that
runs easy.

1234
01:17:47,010 --> 01:17:51,250
That's that's easily understood.
And they weren't calling either

1235
01:17:51,250 --> 01:17:54,370
God at that point by the name
Jehovah because they were

1236
01:17:54,370 --> 01:17:57,290
speaking idamic, right?
You know what I mean, right?

1237
01:17:57,770 --> 01:18:04,050
Yeah, and so it's anyways.
And so and then you have other

1238
01:18:04,050 --> 01:18:07,170
esoteric meanings too, and
that's always fun.

1239
01:18:08,210 --> 01:18:11,490
Like, for example, the Booker
revelation says that there's

1240
01:18:11,490 --> 01:18:16,610
going to be 144,000 gods or
people with the name of God

1241
01:18:16,610 --> 01:18:17,850
written on their forehead at the
end.

1242
01:18:18,010 --> 01:18:19,690
What does that mean?
What name is it going to be?

1243
01:18:19,690 --> 01:18:23,850
Is it going to be 144,000 people
with the name Michael Jehovah or

1244
01:18:23,850 --> 01:18:25,730
Elohim written on their
forehead?

1245
01:18:26,290 --> 01:18:28,930
But what, what implications does
that have to have?

1246
01:18:28,970 --> 01:18:32,210
You know when you have 144,000
people with the name Elohim

1247
01:18:32,210 --> 01:18:35,450
written on their forehead, or
Jehovah or whatever, you know

1248
01:18:35,890 --> 01:18:39,010
those are interesting things to
think about, right?

1249
01:18:39,290 --> 01:18:42,050
Right.
Yeah, yeah.

1250
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:47,840
No, it it it's interesting stuff
but I find it interesting that

1251
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:51,920
with muster because he again I
like the term you use proto

1252
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:54,560
fundamentalist.
That's that's exactly what

1253
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:56,960
muster is right.
He is.

1254
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:01,880
He is is kind of the forerunner
in a lot of, I shouldn't say

1255
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:05,680
Forerunner.
He's he's the first that's well

1256
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:10,520
known enough and apparently
beloved enough by everybody.

1257
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:13,360
Where he can keep these things
alive.

1258
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:17,720
And again, these won't be things
we'll get to know in this world

1259
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:22,200
because we don't have access to
records or to be able to talk to

1260
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,160
the man.
But I imagine there was probably

1261
01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:29,280
a moment at which he he sat
there and went, You know, I'll

1262
01:19:29,280 --> 01:19:33,400
bet you the Adam God doctrine is
next, or I'll bet you United

1263
01:19:33,400 --> 01:19:38,640
Order is next.
And he must have felt an

1264
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:44,400
expansion of his calling.
Oh, and I'll go even one step

1265
01:19:44,400 --> 01:19:45,600
further.
Temple work.

1266
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:51,640
Yeah, we're going to go there.
We're absolutely going to go

1267
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:55,120
there.
But yeah, no, according to what

1268
01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:58,320
you're saying, you're very much
right.

1269
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:02,880
He, Joseph, I've heard Joseph
Musser called the godfather of

1270
01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:07,600
Mormon fundamentalism before.
And so that's a cool title when

1271
01:20:07,600 --> 01:20:09,800
you look at the term as like
that, Caring.

1272
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:13,630
Benevolent.
A surrogate father, right?

1273
01:20:15,070 --> 01:20:20,750
You know that's taking the truth
and nurturing it while the

1274
01:20:20,750 --> 01:20:23,190
father's away, right?
Right.

1275
01:20:23,270 --> 01:20:24,950
Yeah.
Yeah.

1276
01:20:24,950 --> 01:20:28,550
No.
And he is that right?

1277
01:20:28,910 --> 01:20:31,110
He is absolutely that.
He is.

1278
01:20:31,110 --> 01:20:35,870
He is that.
Because, look, with the

1279
01:20:35,870 --> 01:20:39,470
exception of the priesthood
claims made by the Le Barons.

1280
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:47,080
Everybody's lineage at one point
or another goes back to Musser.

1281
01:20:48,240 --> 01:20:51,400
Yeah, every everyone wants
Joseph Musser to kind of be

1282
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:53,520
their guy.
They want to own him and yeah,

1283
01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:55,080
everyone touches him at some
point.

1284
01:20:55,120 --> 01:20:58,400
And it's it's interesting.
It's very interesting.

1285
01:20:58,400 --> 01:21:00,600
I I've noticed that pattern as
well.

1286
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:03,920
It's like it all spider webs out
from from that point, right?

1287
01:21:08,150 --> 01:21:09,830
All right, you.
Threw us on a tangent.

1288
01:21:09,830 --> 01:21:11,910
I apologize.
No, you're fine.

1289
01:21:11,910 --> 01:21:18,590
I'm trying to find where I was.
You had a lot of legal problems

1290
01:21:18,590 --> 01:21:22,870
with the government starting in
the mid 1930s, and a lot of guys

1291
01:21:22,870 --> 01:21:26,270
are getting arrested.
And I like, you know I found

1292
01:21:26,270 --> 01:21:30,390
something cool where in November
of 1935, Joseph Musser was kind

1293
01:21:30,390 --> 01:21:33,550
of able to legally represent
some of those guys down there

1294
01:21:33,550 --> 01:21:36,780
who got arrested in Short Creek
and he got the case, he got John

1295
01:21:36,780 --> 01:21:39,500
White Barlow's case thrown out,
which is kind of cool.

1296
01:21:40,260 --> 01:21:46,140
So when he start going to
Caliph, no he was not, he was

1297
01:21:46,180 --> 01:21:48,620
not.
But they he decided to get get

1298
01:21:49,340 --> 01:21:53,100
he gave it a shot because the
personal attorneys those men had

1299
01:21:53,260 --> 01:21:56,100
from the state of Utah, because
they were Utah transplants in

1300
01:21:56,100 --> 01:21:59,930
the state of Arizona.
I guess the laws or the OR the

1301
01:21:59,930 --> 01:22:03,250
bar at the time was I guess
wasn't compatible for some

1302
01:22:03,250 --> 01:22:05,410
reason.
But I guess Utah attorneys could

1303
01:22:05,410 --> 01:22:09,810
not practice law in in Arizona.
But he wasn't.

1304
01:22:11,450 --> 01:22:13,810
He wasn't a Utah attorney.
And so I guess he he wasn't

1305
01:22:14,010 --> 01:22:17,090
debarred from representing them.
Gotcha.

1306
01:22:20,330 --> 01:22:25,050
Gotcha.
By about March of 1936, they're

1307
01:22:25,050 --> 01:22:27,370
going on trips, or at least
Joseph Muster's, going on trips

1308
01:22:27,370 --> 01:22:36,120
to Long Beach, CA to meet with
Ruling Allred, who's living

1309
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:38,280
there.
And what seems to be a small

1310
01:22:38,280 --> 01:22:42,240
branch of the group that's now
formed people who have been

1311
01:22:42,240 --> 01:22:46,040
reading Truth Magazine and other
books published as Missionary

1312
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:50,520
work from Joseph Musser.
And they're, they're wanting to

1313
01:22:50,520 --> 01:22:53,240
be involved, right?
And so they're going out to

1314
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:55,680
places in Idaho.
They're going out to places in

1315
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:59,460
California.
They're colonizing in Arizona

1316
01:22:59,460 --> 01:23:01,300
right there.
They even start going down to

1317
01:23:01,300 --> 01:23:06,180
Mexico at some point, right?
Like that's where the the

1318
01:23:06,180 --> 01:23:09,500
stewardship of this priesthood
council ends up expanding to,

1319
01:23:09,620 --> 01:23:11,580
you know, as people get
interested.

1320
01:23:12,500 --> 01:23:15,820
It's funny that fundamental
fundamentalism seems to start

1321
01:23:15,820 --> 01:23:18,060
off as a monolith and then
fractures.

1322
01:23:19,980 --> 01:23:24,020
It's interesting, for sure.
Well, there was, there were

1323
01:23:24,020 --> 01:23:27,020
actually other splits earlier
like the Kingston group for

1324
01:23:27,020 --> 01:23:31,380
example, by this point that
we're talking about had already

1325
01:23:31,380 --> 01:23:33,700
started to do its own own thing
in 1935.

1326
01:23:34,100 --> 01:23:38,580
And their main focus at the time
was just like, I mean they they

1327
01:23:38,620 --> 01:23:41,300
they practice polygamy, don't
you know, but they but their

1328
01:23:41,300 --> 01:23:45,060
main thing was we need to do
united order like right now.

1329
01:23:45,900 --> 01:23:49,900
And the priest and council with
like John Y Barlow and Joseph

1330
01:23:49,900 --> 01:23:53,240
Musser, they were like, yeah,
that's important, but like we

1331
01:23:53,240 --> 01:23:58,320
don't want to rush too fast and
get this wrong, you know, let's

1332
01:23:58,320 --> 01:24:00,800
ease into it.
And.

1333
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:05,240
And they did, they they started
that kind of a program up in in

1334
01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:10,760
in Short Creek.
And by about 1936 September,

1335
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:15,840
there was some problems being
manifested or in August.

1336
01:24:15,960 --> 01:24:20,400
Let's get back a bit.
In August, my aunt, this Barlow,

1337
01:24:20,480 --> 01:24:24,200
who is a brother to John Y
Barlow, came to Joseph Musser to

1338
01:24:24,200 --> 01:24:28,720
discuss some stuff going on down
there and ruling Allred in a

1339
01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:31,280
space of four days.
Both of them came individually

1340
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:36,600
to Joseph Musser to tell him
that he should be worried about

1341
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:41,760
too much, too many control
measures or methods being used

1342
01:24:42,240 --> 01:24:46,680
in the United order down there
in Short Creek and that they

1343
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:49,720
needed to talk about it.
And so by September, there was a

1344
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:54,840
priesthood meeting in Salt Lake,
where members of the council

1345
01:24:54,840 --> 01:24:57,240
decided that they're going to
talk to John White Barlow and

1346
01:24:57,240 --> 01:25:00,120
ask that he discontinue his
active management at Short

1347
01:25:00,120 --> 01:25:02,680
Creek, except in spiritual
matters.

1348
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:06,280
That the Brethren locally there
should organize and manage their

1349
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:09,520
own affairs free from the
domination of the priesthood.

1350
01:25:10,440 --> 01:25:14,040
On November 8th.
Louis Kelsch, who is the June

1351
01:25:14,120 --> 01:25:16,680
the most junior member of the
Priesthood Council at the time,

1352
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:18,970
and Joseph Musser.
We had a talk with John Y

1353
01:25:19,010 --> 01:25:23,250
Barlow, and Joseph Musser writes
this in his journal for that

1354
01:25:23,250 --> 01:25:27,690
day, that there seemed to be a
disposition toward a one man

1355
01:25:27,690 --> 01:25:29,530
rule.
That many of the Saints were

1356
01:25:29,530 --> 01:25:32,410
complaining that the present
arrangement was not in

1357
01:25:32,410 --> 01:25:35,890
accordance with the spirit or
the action of the priest had

1358
01:25:35,890 --> 01:25:39,010
recently taken whereby it was
advised that Brother Barlow

1359
01:25:39,010 --> 01:25:42,330
resigned from the management of
the affairs of the group and

1360
01:25:42,330 --> 01:25:45,210
confine his labor more
particularly to the spiritual

1361
01:25:45,210 --> 01:25:48,230
field.
So.

1362
01:25:48,350 --> 01:25:51,150
But I will say I'd like to get a
word in edgewise for brother

1363
01:25:51,150 --> 01:25:57,110
John Wybarlow.
I don't know if I would say he

1364
01:25:57,110 --> 01:26:03,030
was a wicked or or designing or
man in the OR even abusive with

1365
01:26:03,030 --> 01:26:06,670
this.
Maybe it was because there was

1366
01:26:06,670 --> 01:26:10,710
enough people that when this was
happening that said no, we

1367
01:26:10,710 --> 01:26:13,350
believe John Wybarlow is a
prophet of God, and not only the

1368
01:26:13,350 --> 01:26:15,790
prophet of God, but the
mouthpiece of God.

1369
01:26:16,190 --> 01:26:18,510
And we want him to stay in the
position he is in.

1370
01:26:18,630 --> 01:26:21,350
And so there was enough people
that there was enough of a there

1371
01:26:21,350 --> 01:26:24,710
was a significant enough of a
minority that did not like the

1372
01:26:24,910 --> 01:26:27,030
some measures that they
considered overbearing.

1373
01:26:27,230 --> 01:26:33,230
But there was a majority that
liked being dictated to in a lot

1374
01:26:33,230 --> 01:26:36,590
of things, which is kind of
human nature when we think about

1375
01:26:36,590 --> 01:26:38,470
it.
They like to be told by the

1376
01:26:38,470 --> 01:26:42,110
prophet of God what they need to
do, because then they don't have

1377
01:26:42,110 --> 01:26:43,710
to think for themselves what
they need to do.

1378
01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:51,480
And so it's almost as if the
people wouldn't release him from

1379
01:26:51,480 --> 01:26:53,400
that responsibility.
And I couldn't.

1380
01:26:53,400 --> 01:26:58,160
I would, dude, if I had people
call me a prophet, I would give

1381
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:03,240
him so much to think about, to
think, to rethink what they were

1382
01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:05,160
saying about that.
You know what I mean?

1383
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:08,280
I would run away intentionally
too.

1384
01:27:09,270 --> 01:27:11,110
Yeah, I would run.
Oh yeah.

1385
01:27:11,190 --> 01:27:13,790
I would be gone.
You thought Jonah could move

1386
01:27:13,790 --> 01:27:15,990
fast.
You ain't seen nothing yet.

1387
01:27:16,350 --> 01:27:20,110
Stop making like the fat kid in
class and hauling.

1388
01:27:20,110 --> 01:27:24,990
But I am out, no.
So I I see the seeds of the

1389
01:27:24,990 --> 01:27:28,070
fruits that eventually come to
pass down there, because the

1390
01:27:28,070 --> 01:27:32,470
people wouldn't let him out of
that position when the council

1391
01:27:32,470 --> 01:27:35,270
was like, it's best that Pete
that he doesn't manage it

1392
01:27:35,270 --> 01:27:36,750
temporally.
Like, yes, work with them

1393
01:27:36,750 --> 01:27:41,670
spiritually, but it's it's a
tough situation again, you know,

1394
01:27:41,670 --> 01:27:44,630
messy, as we talked about, even
with the count Quorum of the 12,

1395
01:27:44,630 --> 01:27:47,390
it's starting to get messy a
little bit with certain things,

1396
01:27:47,830 --> 01:27:49,590
as it always does in an
organization.

1397
01:27:50,670 --> 01:27:53,910
But I'm not saying that
organizations bad either.

1398
01:27:54,510 --> 01:27:57,230
Right.
It's a happy you need

1399
01:27:57,230 --> 01:27:59,670
organization.
It's a happy medium, right?

1400
01:27:59,670 --> 01:28:03,230
Because if there's no
organization at all.

1401
01:28:05,370 --> 01:28:08,490
Then we just all do our
individual things and good luck

1402
01:28:08,490 --> 01:28:12,210
building Zion that way.
However, if it's too

1403
01:28:12,210 --> 01:28:16,970
overbearing, if it's tyrannical
in nature, well, it's not really

1404
01:28:16,970 --> 01:28:22,530
Zion, it's somebody else's.
It's it's one man's Zion and and

1405
01:28:22,530 --> 01:28:27,770
so no it it there's got to be a
happy balance struck and and and

1406
01:28:27,770 --> 01:28:31,930
stuff like that.
No, there's a best way I can put

1407
01:28:31,930 --> 01:28:35,720
this is in a conversation
between the Quorum of the 12th

1408
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:39,960
and the 1st Presidency in
February of of 1849.

1409
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:44,720
The Brigham Young and all those
guys they were talking about.

1410
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:47,440
This is who holds the keys, do
all.

1411
01:28:47,800 --> 01:28:50,840
The question was, do all
apostles hold the keys alike?

1412
01:28:52,480 --> 01:28:56,120
And Brigham Young basically
said, well you can prove it both

1413
01:28:56,120 --> 01:29:01,500
ways.
But I Brigham Young was ordained

1414
01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:04,340
to be an apostle just the same
as Joseph Smith was.

1415
01:29:04,740 --> 01:29:08,980
But Joseph Smith was called of
God to lead and you were called

1416
01:29:08,980 --> 01:29:12,100
of God to hold the keys.
Now I love that.

1417
01:29:12,300 --> 01:29:16,300
I absolutely love that because
it's and he says the the calling

1418
01:29:16,300 --> 01:29:21,780
to men are different but he
still said God called Joseph to

1419
01:29:21,780 --> 01:29:24,620
lead.
And you, you also, meaning the

1420
01:29:24,620 --> 01:29:28,140
rest of the apostles, to also
hold the keys.

1421
01:29:28,560 --> 01:29:31,560
But the calling of men from God
is different.

1422
01:29:32,520 --> 01:29:35,120
But it shows you that there's a
safety measure there, right?

1423
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:40,080
But if one person were to go off
the rails, that if not all is

1424
01:29:40,080 --> 01:29:43,280
lost because you have a council
or a quorum that have the keys

1425
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:45,840
still.
And you had statements from

1426
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:51,040
Brigham Young in 1845 or 1846
where he said, if I'm doing

1427
01:29:51,040 --> 01:29:55,440
wrong, put me down, you know.
And when they're on their way

1428
01:29:55,440 --> 01:29:57,720
back, on their way to Utah,
right when they're on the

1429
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:00,460
planes.
And I know we have this

1430
01:30:00,460 --> 01:30:02,020
statement from President
Woodruff.

1431
01:30:02,020 --> 01:30:05,060
And this is the honestly, this
is the biggest acts I I've ever

1432
01:30:05,060 --> 01:30:07,580
had to grind with President
Woodruff is that he said the

1433
01:30:07,580 --> 01:30:10,740
Lord wouldn't suffer any man who
was president of the church to

1434
01:30:10,740 --> 01:30:14,380
lead you astray.
I'll I'll trump that with an

1435
01:30:14,380 --> 01:30:18,300
earlier statement from President
Brigham Young where he said if

1436
01:30:18,300 --> 01:30:21,340
the people are led astray by
their leaders, it's because the

1437
01:30:21,340 --> 01:30:26,500
people deserve to have it so.
Right, Because we didn't stand

1438
01:30:26,500 --> 01:30:27,900
up and say and that qualifies
it.

1439
01:30:28,540 --> 01:30:33,620
Yeah because we didn't say
something right it look this is

1440
01:30:33,620 --> 01:30:36,940
the same thing with government
in a lot of ways right.

1441
01:30:37,260 --> 01:30:41,540
We we, we you know we we loan
out our rights to our

1442
01:30:41,540 --> 01:30:47,540
representative as is designed or
our voice and but at any moment

1443
01:30:47,540 --> 01:30:49,940
he could be recalled for doing
shady crap.

1444
01:30:49,940 --> 01:30:53,540
It's just are we going to do it
or are we just going to get self

1445
01:30:53,540 --> 01:30:58,890
absorbed and let let, let.
Complacency.

1446
01:30:58,890 --> 01:31:03,210
Have it have the day.
And the same thing goes for for

1447
01:31:03,210 --> 01:31:07,810
church government.
If if somebody's being a tyrant,

1448
01:31:07,810 --> 01:31:12,250
if someone's doing something
that is not in keeping with with

1449
01:31:12,370 --> 01:31:18,210
the gospel as revealed by Joseph
Smith, then it becomes our duty

1450
01:31:19,250 --> 01:31:21,810
to say something and point that
out.

1451
01:31:23,480 --> 01:31:26,440
Absolutely, absolutely it does.
And John Taylor said the same

1452
01:31:26,440 --> 01:31:29,080
thing in his presidency.
He said if the cut time comes

1453
01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:34,120
where the presidents of the
church or the apostles are not

1454
01:31:34,120 --> 01:31:37,480
doing their job, then it's time
for the people of the church to

1455
01:31:37,480 --> 01:31:40,640
vote them out.
He says that to vote them out,

1456
01:31:41,320 --> 01:31:45,560
which is interesting.
Yeah, tyrants only have as much

1457
01:31:45,560 --> 01:31:48,560
power as we're willing to give
them in the beginning.

1458
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:52,720
Absolutely.
All right.

1459
01:31:53,830 --> 01:31:56,950
I don't think they're completely
in the tyranny by this point,

1460
01:31:56,950 --> 01:32:01,670
though, in 1936.
So yeah, the priesthood council,

1461
01:32:01,670 --> 01:32:03,030
because there's this debate now
right there.

1462
01:32:03,030 --> 01:32:05,550
Their debate people are.
Yeah, some people saying John

1463
01:32:05,550 --> 01:32:08,590
White Barlow is the mouthpiece
of God on earth and he's the

1464
01:32:08,590 --> 01:32:10,310
prophet, and only one man holds
the keys.

1465
01:32:10,950 --> 01:32:13,430
And so this kind of starts this
discussion.

1466
01:32:13,710 --> 01:32:19,590
And the Priesthood Council got
together November 25th, 1936.

1467
01:32:19,590 --> 01:32:21,410
And they settled.
They made a resolution.

1468
01:32:21,410 --> 01:32:22,890
And this is this is what it
says, I'll read it.

1469
01:32:23,890 --> 01:32:28,570
That the priesthood group holds
the priesthood of Elijah, with

1470
01:32:28,570 --> 01:32:31,650
special duties given them to
keep the spirit and practice of

1471
01:32:32,210 --> 01:32:35,130
all marriage alive.
That they are not given the duty

1472
01:32:35,130 --> 01:32:38,730
to colonize groups of Saints.
That groups may colonize on

1473
01:32:38,730 --> 01:32:42,970
their own initiative as they may
be led to do so, the priesthood

1474
01:32:42,970 --> 01:32:46,050
holding itself in readiness to
advise and counsel them from

1475
01:32:46,050 --> 01:32:48,890
time to time on questions
germane to the functions and

1476
01:32:48,890 --> 01:32:51,370
duties of the Priesthood.
That the priesthood group is

1477
01:32:51,370 --> 01:32:55,850
presided over at the present by
John Y Barlow, by reason of a

1478
01:32:55,850 --> 01:32:59,250
seniority in ordination, And
that any keys possessed are

1479
01:32:59,250 --> 01:33:02,490
possessed by the group as a
body, their powers being

1480
01:33:02,490 --> 01:33:06,010
expressed through Brother Barlow
or any other such party as the

1481
01:33:06,010 --> 01:33:08,930
group may designate.
That until the group receives

1482
01:33:08,930 --> 01:33:11,810
its confirmation or further
instructions, we feel it a duty

1483
01:33:11,810 --> 01:33:14,720
to confine confine our
activities to the labors

1484
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:17,280
appointed to us in our
ordination and succeeding

1485
01:33:17,280 --> 01:33:19,160
instructions.
That it should be the policy of

1486
01:33:19,160 --> 01:33:21,760
the priesthood to save and not
to destroy.

1487
01:33:22,080 --> 01:33:26,720
And any of the Saints living at
Short Creek, not wishing to join

1488
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:29,600
with the group there, in their
cooperative plan, should be

1489
01:33:29,600 --> 01:33:32,560
given their liberty to follow
their own bent, and not to incur

1490
01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:34,600
in consequence the ill will of
the group.

1491
01:33:35,240 --> 01:33:38,320
So here's a whole
nonconformative statement, like,

1492
01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:40,040
you don't have to join the
United Order.

1493
01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:42,560
You should still have full
fellowship if you choose not to.

1494
01:33:44,870 --> 01:33:48,590
And we want to be involved in
advising individuals

1495
01:33:48,670 --> 01:33:51,910
spiritually, and we want people
to make individual choices.

1496
01:33:51,910 --> 01:33:54,110
Where you live.
You want to live in Short Creek,

1497
01:33:54,110 --> 01:33:55,350
that's fine.
You want to live in Salt Lake

1498
01:33:55,350 --> 01:33:57,350
City, That's fine.
And we're here.

1499
01:33:57,350 --> 01:34:01,110
We're here to serve you, right?
And we hold the keys

1500
01:34:01,110 --> 01:34:03,110
collectively as a body, you
know?

1501
01:34:03,110 --> 01:34:06,590
And I hope, and there's probably
some people who did not

1502
01:34:06,590 --> 01:34:09,150
interpret it this way, which is
unfortunate because if you take

1503
01:34:09,150 --> 01:34:13,900
a legalistic look at that, you
can say, oh, as a body, that

1504
01:34:13,900 --> 01:34:18,500
means they have to be unanimous
in what they do, otherwise you

1505
01:34:18,500 --> 01:34:23,660
can make no decision.
And while that's kind of a good

1506
01:34:23,660 --> 01:34:25,500
thing, in some ways you get
gridlock, right.

1507
01:34:26,100 --> 01:34:29,420
But I would say, I hope it would
be understood that the body

1508
01:34:29,420 --> 01:34:33,300
holds it because the individual
members of the body hold it.

1509
01:34:34,380 --> 01:34:37,860
But I could.
But I could see how some people

1510
01:34:37,860 --> 01:34:41,340
could get a legalistic look at
that and say, oh look, we can't

1511
01:34:41,340 --> 01:34:47,340
make a decision without being
unanimous, and sometimes it's

1512
01:34:47,460 --> 01:34:49,900
good to not do anything without
that.

1513
01:34:50,100 --> 01:34:52,740
Don't get me wrong, but it
really depends on the situation.

1514
01:34:56,260 --> 01:35:00,820
So I found an interesting
statement that by by his

1515
01:35:01,340 --> 01:35:04,980
birthday in 1937, Joseph Musser
writes in his journal that he's

1516
01:35:04,980 --> 01:35:10,140
still awaiting his confirmation.
By the 2nd Comforter, it's still

1517
01:35:10,900 --> 01:35:14,130
he hasn't received the
appearance of Jesus Christ yet

1518
01:35:14,130 --> 01:35:18,090
in his life by by March 8th,
1937.

1519
01:35:22,610 --> 01:35:26,530
Let's see.
And the priesthood group as a

1520
01:35:26,530 --> 01:35:27,970
whole, they were trying to get
that.

1521
01:35:28,050 --> 01:35:33,010
And in fact, on December 19th,
1938, at a Priesthood council

1522
01:35:33,010 --> 01:35:38,250
meeting, Lagrande Woolley asks
asks a question of the council.

1523
01:35:38,570 --> 01:35:41,680
And for those who don't know, Le
Grand Wooley was a member of the

1524
01:35:41,680 --> 01:35:45,160
priest of council and he was a
nephew to Lauren C Wooley.

1525
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:51,000
And Le Grand Wooley asks, there
is no man on earth holding the

1526
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:54,520
apostleship, is there?
To which Joseph Musser replies,

1527
01:35:54,600 --> 01:35:57,040
none that we know of that is
fully qualified.

1528
01:35:57,040 --> 01:36:00,320
So what do you think that means,
Brother Dave?

1529
01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:05,040
I think that means that to be an
apostle, that special witness of

1530
01:36:05,080 --> 01:36:08,240
of Jesus Christ.
It means have you seen the

1531
01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:10,710
Savior?
Have you felt the Prince in the

1532
01:36:10,710 --> 01:36:12,590
science?
Have you.

1533
01:36:13,470 --> 01:36:15,630
Right.
And that's the what they're

1534
01:36:15,630 --> 01:36:16,910
meaning by that.
Yep.

1535
01:36:18,070 --> 01:36:19,590
Right.
And you have that you have that

1536
01:36:19,590 --> 01:36:22,030
statement from Oliver Cowdrey,
right where he gives when they

1537
01:36:22,030 --> 01:36:24,670
ordain the Quorum of the 12 for
the first time is never.

1538
01:36:25,110 --> 01:36:27,550
Can't get enough of the Mormon
Renegade podcast?

1539
01:36:27,710 --> 01:36:30,470
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1540
01:36:30,470 --> 01:36:31,950
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1541
01:36:32,470 --> 01:36:34,750
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1542
01:36:35,130 --> 01:36:37,810
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1543
01:36:37,810 --> 01:36:40,850
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01:36:40,850 --> 01:36:44,290
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1545
01:36:44,290 --> 01:36:48,090
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1546
01:36:48,610 --> 01:36:52,010
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01:36:52,010 --> 01:36:54,650
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1548
01:36:54,650 --> 01:36:58,730
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1549
01:36:58,970 --> 01:37:01,850
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1550
01:37:01,850 --> 01:37:03,900
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1551
01:37:03,900 --> 01:37:07,700
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there you'll be able to talk to

1552
01:37:07,700 --> 01:37:10,180
others about the show or
whatever topics are on your

1553
01:37:10,180 --> 01:37:13,020
mind.
Go to Patreon today and get your

1554
01:37:13,020 --> 01:37:15,300
exclusive content right.
And you have that.

1555
01:37:15,340 --> 01:37:17,660
You have that statement from
Oliver Cowdrey, right where he

1556
01:37:17,660 --> 01:37:20,220
gives when they ordained the
quorum of the 12 for the first

1557
01:37:20,220 --> 01:37:23,300
time is never cease striving to
see the face of God, right?

1558
01:37:23,780 --> 01:37:26,740
Right.
And you're calling isn't

1559
01:37:26,740 --> 01:37:30,340
complete until you do.
That's what Oliver told those

1560
01:37:30,340 --> 01:37:32,990
guys.
For some listeners, I have a

1561
01:37:32,990 --> 01:37:40,550
fun, fun historical footnote
written down here on April 1st,

1562
01:37:40,590 --> 01:37:43,830
1940 in the In one of those
Priest of Council meetings,

1563
01:37:43,830 --> 01:37:50,550
Charles Zitting asked to be
authorized to ordain a young man

1564
01:37:50,550 --> 01:37:55,510
named Joseph Blaine Thompson, an
elder in the Melchezde Priest at

1565
01:37:55,510 --> 01:37:59,510
the age of 16.
Now, that name is going to come

1566
01:37:59,510 --> 01:38:06,580
up later in this episode quite a
bit, so that's fun.

1567
01:38:07,660 --> 01:38:09,980
It's also very young to be
ordained an elder.

1568
01:38:11,340 --> 01:38:14,260
That's definitely not common
practice, no, But I'll be.

1569
01:38:14,260 --> 01:38:17,980
Honest with you, There's tons.
I think our youth don't achieve

1570
01:38:17,980 --> 01:38:22,620
that because we don't ask them
to oh dude, yeah, how can you

1571
01:38:22,620 --> 01:38:25,180
reach the bar if it's not, if
it's not low enough to reach?

1572
01:38:26,060 --> 01:38:28,660
Well, I'm not saying have a low
bar, but like you got to have it

1573
01:38:28,660 --> 01:38:30,780
high enough to reach to a
certain standard, but you got to

1574
01:38:30,780 --> 01:38:33,800
be able to reach it.
Sometimes we treat our kids like

1575
01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:37,320
morons and they act accordingly,
right?

1576
01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:44,520
I look at, you know, Washington,
who's one of my favorite humans

1577
01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:48,160
to ever live.
Dude at 16 was Fairfax County,

1578
01:38:48,160 --> 01:38:53,120
Virginia surveyor, and he's out
there leading older men in

1579
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:58,640
expeditions to survey the lands.
And at 16, I was busy getting

1580
01:38:58,640 --> 01:39:02,860
high in my car.
So I mean there's there's, you

1581
01:39:02,860 --> 01:39:08,140
know again I think sometimes we
don't get, we don't.

1582
01:39:08,620 --> 01:39:12,140
Our youth will walk up to
exactly what it is we asked them

1583
01:39:12,140 --> 01:39:13,780
to do.
We just have to set the goal

1584
01:39:13,780 --> 01:39:16,500
form.
Yeah, I absolutely agree.

1585
01:39:17,500 --> 01:39:18,660
All right.
So now we're going to get into

1586
01:39:18,660 --> 01:39:22,460
the sermons of Joseph Musser,
right into into the ministry of

1587
01:39:22,460 --> 01:39:26,380
the man.
So I'll read a few and you just

1588
01:39:26,740 --> 01:39:31,530
pop off any quote questions or
comments as we're going on.

1589
01:39:32,170 --> 01:39:37,970
So August 35th, 1940, Joseph
muster T, which is the law of

1590
01:39:37,970 --> 01:39:40,850
Abraham, is another route that
we have got to take in order to

1591
01:39:40,850 --> 01:39:44,370
get back to the presence of
father and mother because he

1592
01:39:44,370 --> 01:39:48,050
lives that law.
He had wives upon the earth, he

1593
01:39:48,050 --> 01:39:51,410
had children upon the earth.
And there are people in this

1594
01:39:51,410 --> 01:39:54,050
room tonight who are literal
descendants of the Lord Jesus

1595
01:39:54,050 --> 01:39:56,440
Christ.
Of course Jesus had a family.

1596
01:39:56,440 --> 01:39:59,360
He had to do everything that his
father had done before him.

1597
01:40:00,840 --> 01:40:03,960
Some women here have said that
they will have one man to

1598
01:40:03,960 --> 01:40:05,720
herself.
Maybe they will.

1599
01:40:06,200 --> 01:40:09,080
Others who are bachelors are
willing to take the consequences

1600
01:40:09,080 --> 01:40:12,680
of that situation.
I am here tonight to testify in

1601
01:40:12,680 --> 01:40:15,840
the name of the Lord Jesus
Christ that if you want to get

1602
01:40:15,880 --> 01:40:19,240
back into the presence of father
and mother, Abraham, Isaac,

1603
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:22,930
Joseph, Brigham, etcetera.
We are going to live the same

1604
01:40:22,930 --> 01:40:25,770
law that these people lived, and
we are going to live it upon

1605
01:40:26,010 --> 01:40:28,450
this earth in mortality or we
won't get there.

1606
01:40:29,090 --> 01:40:31,770
I admonish you, dear brothers
and sisters, to be willing to to

1607
01:40:31,770 --> 01:40:36,130
work to obtain salvation.
We have people who are working

1608
01:40:36,130 --> 01:40:38,610
themselves to death, who are
willing to give their lives,

1609
01:40:38,610 --> 01:40:41,610
willing to go to the Pententiary
or go to their graves if

1610
01:40:41,610 --> 01:40:44,810
necessary.
Let us quit this fluctuation.

1611
01:40:45,290 --> 01:40:48,250
I call this audience to
repentance every one of us.

1612
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:51,400
There is no one in this room
tonight who has no occasion to

1613
01:40:51,640 --> 01:40:54,800
not to repent.
Prepare yourself to get in a

1614
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:58,280
position that you can get into
the Kingdom of God.

1615
01:40:58,560 --> 01:41:01,080
God wants people who will stand
in the face of death if

1616
01:41:01,080 --> 01:41:02,960
necessary.
God bless you.

1617
01:41:03,160 --> 01:41:05,240
Amen.
What do you think of that one?

1618
01:41:05,640 --> 01:41:10,040
You know that one right there,
that one is loaded, right?

1619
01:41:10,400 --> 01:41:14,640
Because here, here we we, we
start hearing about, you know?

1620
01:41:15,650 --> 01:41:19,250
There could be very the very
descendants of the Savior in

1621
01:41:19,250 --> 01:41:24,490
this room, right?
Which is, I hate to break it to

1622
01:41:24,490 --> 01:41:26,570
Dan Brown.
He wasn't the first one to think

1623
01:41:26,570 --> 01:41:28,530
of the the bloodline of Christ.
Right.

1624
01:41:28,530 --> 01:41:33,600
Right, So.
Yeah, I mean that's that's a

1625
01:41:33,600 --> 01:41:36,080
loaded statement and that's
something that Harkins back to

1626
01:41:36,080 --> 01:41:40,360
Joseph's time, right.
You could find certain certain

1627
01:41:40,400 --> 01:41:43,800
discussions amongst the
Brethren, Joseph included, where

1628
01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:48,440
they talk about you know being
actual descendants of of Christ.

1629
01:41:48,920 --> 01:41:52,280
Also, I I think this might be
one of his first sermons where

1630
01:41:52,280 --> 01:41:58,600
he's drawing a very hard line.
Where where, where?

1631
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:02,840
Muster is saying look.
No matter what the LDS church

1632
01:42:02,840 --> 01:42:06,120
says, we are all saved on the
same principles and we're all

1633
01:42:06,120 --> 01:42:09,720
exalted on the same principles.
And if we want to get to that

1634
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:13,680
point, there are certain things
that we have to do right.

1635
01:42:13,920 --> 01:42:18,360
And one of the things that we
saw happen in post manifesto

1636
01:42:18,360 --> 01:42:23,120
Mormonism was this idea and the
switch of no, no plural marriage

1637
01:42:23,120 --> 01:42:26,040
isn't that.
You know, in the old days it was

1638
01:42:26,040 --> 01:42:28,040
plural marriage is vitally
important.

1639
01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:33,390
And then it gets.
Watered down to well it's

1640
01:42:33,390 --> 01:42:35,870
something that you'll live in
the hereafter because it's still

1641
01:42:35,870 --> 01:42:42,070
important to well it's really
just being sealed to somebody to

1642
01:42:42,950 --> 01:42:48,430
to now you know kind of A and I
hear it here comes more hate

1643
01:42:48,430 --> 01:42:53,270
mail kind of a feminist bent to
some of this now Gordon B

1644
01:42:53,270 --> 01:42:56,030
Hinckley saying in 60 minutes
that polygamy was never a

1645
01:42:56,030 --> 01:42:58,470
doctrine of the church.
Right, right.

1646
01:42:58,470 --> 01:43:02,310
And so, you know, Muster's drawn
the line, cuz I think he

1647
01:43:02,310 --> 01:43:04,070
understands now what's on the
line.

1648
01:43:04,470 --> 01:43:08,270
And I think he's probably,
whether that's through

1649
01:43:08,270 --> 01:43:10,870
revelation or just deductive
reasoning, I think he

1650
01:43:10,870 --> 01:43:13,950
understands what's coming down
the Pike and he's got to get in

1651
01:43:13,950 --> 01:43:16,110
front of it.
Oh yeah.

1652
01:43:16,110 --> 01:43:18,670
And I also love, especially for
the feminists are listening.

1653
01:43:18,790 --> 01:43:22,860
You know, Joseph Muster
mentioned Heavenly Mother twice

1654
01:43:22,860 --> 01:43:24,940
in that little snippet of that
sermon.

1655
01:43:25,300 --> 01:43:28,020
You know, so all those
feminists, you know, we're the

1656
01:43:28,460 --> 01:43:30,460
fundamentals for the ones
teaching you about your Heavenly

1657
01:43:30,460 --> 01:43:31,740
Mother, if you want to get
involved.

1658
01:43:32,140 --> 01:43:36,060
You know, just not last
conference, but I believe it was

1659
01:43:36,060 --> 01:43:40,180
the LDS General Conference.
Before that you had one of the

1660
01:43:40,180 --> 01:43:44,020
speakers, one of the apostles,
get up and say, look, we don't

1661
01:43:44,020 --> 01:43:47,460
know much about Heavenly Mother.
We know she exists, but that's

1662
01:43:47,460 --> 01:43:50,360
about it.
And I'm like, oh, if there was

1663
01:43:50,480 --> 01:43:54,240
only a doctrine that talked
about our Heavenly Parents and

1664
01:43:54,240 --> 01:43:57,760
who they were, we could know,
Oh, wait, there is.

1665
01:43:58,520 --> 01:44:02,640
You know, we can't talk.
We can't talk about the truth.

1666
01:44:02,640 --> 01:44:04,880
We can't talk about what Brigham
Young said about Mother in

1667
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:06,640
Heaven, can't we?
No, no.

1668
01:44:06,800 --> 01:44:10,200
And here's here's the most
maddening part of all of this,

1669
01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:14,880
right Is that what Joseph
revealed could have

1670
01:44:14,880 --> 01:44:20,320
singlehandedly turned?
Traditional Christendom on its

1671
01:44:20,320 --> 01:44:22,880
head.
Because if there's one thing

1672
01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:26,880
that drove me nuts about
traditional Christianity, it was

1673
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:31,040
constantly blaming women for
everything, right, everything

1674
01:44:31,040 --> 01:44:33,960
that ever went wrong.
And here comes Joseph Smith and

1675
01:44:33,960 --> 01:44:37,320
he's revealing doctrine that has
been lost, saying no, no, no,

1676
01:44:37,320 --> 01:44:40,160
no, no, you got this all wrong.
Let me explain this to you.

1677
01:44:40,360 --> 01:44:43,960
The fall had to happen.
And oh by the way, Eve is your

1678
01:44:43,960 --> 01:44:47,280
heavenly mother.
And yes, I said Heavenly Mother,

1679
01:44:47,280 --> 01:44:51,720
there is a Mother Goddess.
We could have answered the

1680
01:44:51,720 --> 01:44:54,680
feminist question a long time
ago, right?

1681
01:44:55,120 --> 01:45:01,920
And and empowered women.
And we didn't do it because we

1682
01:45:01,920 --> 01:45:03,800
wanted to be like everybody
else.

1683
01:45:04,120 --> 01:45:06,440
Well, when you're like everybody
else, guess what?

1684
01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:09,760
You're going to get the same
diseases that everyone else has

1685
01:45:09,760 --> 01:45:14,880
got.
No, if there there's statements

1686
01:45:14,880 --> 01:45:17,280
and testimonies from women who
live the principle of celestial

1687
01:45:17,280 --> 01:45:21,080
plural marriage that they were
more free under that system than

1688
01:45:21,080 --> 01:45:24,200
they were under monogamy.
And so it's a it's a liberating

1689
01:45:24,200 --> 01:45:28,480
thing, you know, And it's.
Do you know what binding

1690
01:45:28,480 --> 01:45:33,240
blessings were?
What say that?

1691
01:45:33,240 --> 01:45:35,480
Again?
Binding blessings.

1692
01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:39,480
I've never heard of anything by
that term.

1693
01:45:40,000 --> 01:45:44,940
This will blow your mind.
Relief Society presidents before

1694
01:45:44,940 --> 01:45:48,620
a woman used to give birth would
go in and administer a blessing

1695
01:45:49,340 --> 01:45:52,300
to the sister that was about to
give birth, Right.

1696
01:45:52,500 --> 01:45:54,860
I've never heard it called that,
but yeah, I've heard about that.

1697
01:45:55,220 --> 01:45:56,100
OK.
Yeah.

1698
01:45:56,460 --> 01:46:01,860
And and I look at that and I'm
like, had we stuck to our guns,

1699
01:46:01,860 --> 01:46:05,100
Michael, we wouldn't have had to
have dealt with any of this.

1700
01:46:06,660 --> 01:46:08,460
No, no.
There's statements from Brigham

1701
01:46:08,460 --> 01:46:12,880
Young saying like, if I'm away,
like I want to have a wife that

1702
01:46:12,880 --> 01:46:16,480
has the faith enough to bless,
to anoint and bless and and heal

1703
01:46:16,480 --> 01:46:20,520
my children or whatever, right?
And it's because it was

1704
01:46:20,520 --> 01:46:23,400
understood that their temple
ordinances and being sealed to

1705
01:46:23,400 --> 01:46:27,080
your husband and having a
fullness of the priesthood in

1706
01:46:27,080 --> 01:46:29,120
conjunction with your husband,
that you have the right to

1707
01:46:29,160 --> 01:46:32,840
exercise priesthood.
And so you have people in a

1708
01:46:32,840 --> 01:46:36,600
feminist movement in the 90s or
maybe even before the 90s up

1709
01:46:36,600 --> 01:46:38,600
through now.
And women are saying, oh, I want

1710
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:41,720
to be a Bishop.
I could be a better Bishop than

1711
01:46:41,720 --> 01:46:44,400
a man could be.
It's like woman, you have no

1712
01:46:44,400 --> 01:46:51,080
idea what God envisions for you.
Potentially you want to settle

1713
01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:54,840
for being a Bishop when you
could have you're calling

1714
01:46:54,840 --> 01:46:57,680
election, made sure, and be
sealed to your exultation as a

1715
01:46:57,800 --> 01:47:02,520
as a king, as a as a queen and a
priestess of in heaven.

1716
01:47:02,880 --> 01:47:08,080
You know, forget being a Bishop.
Yeah, and here's the thing.

1717
01:47:08,550 --> 01:47:09,950
Right.
And and this is one of the

1718
01:47:09,950 --> 01:47:13,750
reasons I sometimes bristle at
at the term fundamentalist, I

1719
01:47:13,750 --> 01:47:16,030
embrace it because that's what
we're known.

1720
01:47:16,030 --> 01:47:20,110
And unlike Rusty up in Salt
Lake, I'm not big on new speak,

1721
01:47:20,550 --> 01:47:27,870
but I I very we might be the
fundamentalist.

1722
01:47:28,150 --> 01:47:32,430
But when it comes to women's
issues, when it comes to a lot

1723
01:47:32,430 --> 01:47:35,550
of things, we're pretty far
ahead.

1724
01:47:36,440 --> 01:47:38,520
Right.
We're pretty far ahead on that

1725
01:47:38,520 --> 01:47:41,960
holy quality thing.
Well, you have to know how to

1726
01:47:41,960 --> 01:47:45,960
treat your women in a plural
marriage situation because they

1727
01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:47,640
outnumber you.
And I'm not saying it's a

1728
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:52,040
democracy either, because if it
was, they would overrule you

1729
01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:57,200
every single time.
But you have to learn how to be

1730
01:47:57,760 --> 01:47:59,480
a good leader or they will leave
you.

1731
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:06,560
Yep, Yep.
We we were talking about about

1732
01:48:06,560 --> 01:48:11,120
his his sermon there and kind of
how how frustrating it is at

1733
01:48:11,120 --> 01:48:16,800
times that that really Joseph
Smith and original Mormonism

1734
01:48:19,080 --> 01:48:25,800
elevated womanhood to a new
stature In my estimation, more

1735
01:48:25,800 --> 01:48:33,490
than any other religion ever.
It did in an elevated parents in

1736
01:48:33,490 --> 01:48:38,490
general to like to think Joseph
Smith is teaching this doctrine

1737
01:48:38,650 --> 01:48:45,290
that you know that of of course
God the Father had a wife and of

1738
01:48:45,290 --> 01:48:47,890
course they had parents and
there's never been someone that

1739
01:48:47,890 --> 01:48:50,450
never had, that never did have
parents and it never ends,

1740
01:48:50,450 --> 01:48:55,290
right.
And so it's it's it brings the

1741
01:48:55,290 --> 01:48:58,370
joy that we have in our own
individual families to a divine

1742
01:48:58,370 --> 01:49:02,560
level, you know.
And you can see what is below

1743
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:06,880
here on earth becomes heaven in
the future, right?

1744
01:49:08,320 --> 01:49:11,840
Yeah, absolutely.
It's, it's, it's it's profoundly

1745
01:49:12,080 --> 01:49:14,920
more enlightened than what the
world around had to offer.

1746
01:49:15,680 --> 01:49:19,440
Absolutely.
So go back.

1747
01:49:19,640 --> 01:49:25,840
So this is interesting.
On October 6th, 1940, Joseph

1748
01:49:25,840 --> 01:49:30,270
Musser says in a sermon, I have
been told by one of the members

1749
01:49:30,270 --> 01:49:32,910
of the Quorum of the 12 that I
was justified in what I have

1750
01:49:32,910 --> 01:49:35,470
done.
But we want you back in the

1751
01:49:35,470 --> 01:49:38,310
Church.
No, I said.

1752
01:49:38,310 --> 01:49:40,790
My work is to keep this
principle alive, not to

1753
01:49:40,790 --> 01:49:43,390
repudiate it.
Where is our heart?

1754
01:49:43,750 --> 01:49:47,790
Is it in the world?
Is it attached to the Church, or

1755
01:49:47,790 --> 01:49:49,430
is it in the Kingdom of our
Father in heaven?

1756
01:49:49,990 --> 01:49:52,870
Are we willing to take upon
ourselves persecution for the

1757
01:49:52,870 --> 01:49:56,350
works of Christ?
We shall do or go back into the

1758
01:49:56,350 --> 01:49:59,390
Church.
Anyone who is not willing to be

1759
01:49:59,390 --> 01:50:03,230
hated, lied about, to go to
prison if necessary, or to

1760
01:50:03,230 --> 01:50:06,390
surrender our lives if
necessary, let us go back to the

1761
01:50:06,390 --> 01:50:08,750
church.
But for me and my house, I shall

1762
01:50:08,750 --> 01:50:11,830
lead it to the House of Israel
and take the consequences.

1763
01:50:13,630 --> 01:50:18,150
Boy, that one's powerful.
Because this might be and maybe

1764
01:50:18,150 --> 01:50:23,470
you found something earlier.
This might be the the first time

1765
01:50:23,470 --> 01:50:27,640
that.
There's an acknowledgement.

1766
01:50:27,640 --> 01:50:29,480
If you want to live the
fullness, you're going to have

1767
01:50:29,480 --> 01:50:32,280
to do it outside of the church,
right?

1768
01:50:32,480 --> 01:50:34,960
It is no longer persecuted.
Yeah.

1769
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:39,920
And and and yeah, yeah, it's the
test I I love.

1770
01:50:40,240 --> 01:50:43,040
I love how he's, he's eluding in
his language to the Sermon on

1771
01:50:43,040 --> 01:50:46,640
the Mount where Christ is
teaching that, you know, if

1772
01:50:46,640 --> 01:50:50,160
you're persecuted by the, you
know, then you're blessed

1773
01:50:50,160 --> 01:50:52,800
because they persecuted the
prophets before, right.

1774
01:50:53,120 --> 01:50:56,720
And also, he's referencing
Joshua when they enter the land

1775
01:50:56,720 --> 01:50:59,560
of promise, right?
And he says, you know, my me and

1776
01:50:59,560 --> 01:51:01,760
my house, we're going to serve
the Lord, right?

1777
01:51:02,120 --> 01:51:03,400
Yeah, we're going to serve the
Lord.

1778
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:05,920
And you can go back to the
church, but we're going to serve

1779
01:51:05,920 --> 01:51:07,960
the Lord.
And I'm going to lead my my

1780
01:51:07,960 --> 01:51:13,040
family into the House of Israel.
Yep, you know, here's here's

1781
01:51:13,040 --> 01:51:16,560
another uncomfortable fact about
Jesus people often don't like to

1782
01:51:16,560 --> 01:51:22,840
focus on.
More than the Romans, perhaps?

1783
01:51:23,670 --> 01:51:26,550
It was the religious
organizations of his day that

1784
01:51:26,550 --> 01:51:34,550
had him killed, and he was he
was one of their own right?

1785
01:51:34,790 --> 01:51:40,670
He was a Jew, and he pissed off
the power structure.

1786
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:47,430
Now if you think you're better
than Jesus, then maybe you can

1787
01:51:48,470 --> 01:51:52,230
hold to the truth and not be at
odds with the power structure.

1788
01:51:53,210 --> 01:51:56,650
But I tend to think that that if
you're going to live the

1789
01:51:56,650 --> 01:51:59,410
fullness you're going to, you're
going to make some people mad.

1790
01:52:00,330 --> 01:52:02,330
Oh yeah, absolutely.
And that's the pattern.

1791
01:52:02,330 --> 01:52:06,570
That's the pattern of it's it's
the cycle in the Old Testament.

1792
01:52:06,890 --> 01:52:09,530
And I'll tell anyone, I'll tell
us to anyone, I believe this

1793
01:52:09,530 --> 01:52:11,570
with all my heart.
You do not understand the burden

1794
01:52:11,570 --> 01:52:14,210
of the of the scriptures.
And I'll repeat that you do not

1795
01:52:14,250 --> 01:52:17,690
understand the burden of the
scriptures if you do not

1796
01:52:17,690 --> 01:52:19,970
understand the Old Testament.
Yep.

1797
01:52:20,210 --> 01:52:24,400
And the Book of Mormon helps
teach you that pattern of cycle.

1798
01:52:24,400 --> 01:52:27,200
Especially the Book of Mormon
teaches you that cycle of

1799
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:30,760
apostasy and redemption and
apostasy and and redemption.

1800
01:52:31,320 --> 01:52:34,040
And but that's in the Old
Testament.

1801
01:52:34,040 --> 01:52:37,160
And you have more than half the
books of the Old Testament

1802
01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:42,280
purely dealing with what happens
to a people when they don't keep

1803
01:52:42,280 --> 01:52:44,200
their covenants.
Yep.

1804
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:47,600
And then there's a few at the
very end that talk about what

1805
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:49,560
happened when you do keep your
covenants.

1806
01:52:50,030 --> 01:52:52,950
And then by the end, with
Malachi again at the very end of

1807
01:52:52,950 --> 01:52:56,230
the Old Testament, he's saying
you're breaking your covenants

1808
01:52:56,230 --> 01:52:57,710
again.
You're you're not paying your

1809
01:52:57,710 --> 01:52:58,950
tithing.
You're not paying, You're not

1810
01:52:58,950 --> 01:53:02,110
allowing the Levites to do what
they need to do with with tithes

1811
01:53:02,110 --> 01:53:03,990
and offerings.
And you're robbing the House of

1812
01:53:03,990 --> 01:53:07,070
God, you know, and you're not
keeping the ordinances anymore.

1813
01:53:07,550 --> 01:53:11,710
And it's so they're already
slipping back right by that

1814
01:53:11,710 --> 01:53:13,670
point.
Right, right.

1815
01:53:14,190 --> 01:53:18,310
No, people forget that when
Jeremiah's right in

1816
01:53:18,310 --> 01:53:22,990
Lamentations.
He's not talking to anybody else

1817
01:53:22,990 --> 01:53:26,990
except the people that have
screwed up that you.

1818
01:53:27,110 --> 01:53:29,790
And again the religious
structure of people.

1819
01:53:30,510 --> 01:53:32,470
Yeah.
The religious structure of the

1820
01:53:33,470 --> 01:53:37,750
right and and it's this this
idea of yeah, yeah, yeah I got

1821
01:53:37,750 --> 01:53:39,630
it.
You got the outward stuff done.

1822
01:53:39,630 --> 01:53:43,270
But you're not giving him your
heart and you need to get that

1823
01:53:43,270 --> 01:53:49,960
right and.
It's it's a sad I I it's a sad

1824
01:53:49,960 --> 01:53:54,720
commentary but I don't know I
don't know how often we need to

1825
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:56,760
repeat it before we start
figuring out.

1826
01:53:58,040 --> 01:54:04,400
You got to put principle above
above political structure.

1827
01:54:05,040 --> 01:54:08,080
And I think the patterns before
us, we just got to we got to dig

1828
01:54:08,080 --> 01:54:10,040
into our history and love who we
are.

1829
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:13,920
And what I mean by that is love
where we came from, right?

1830
01:54:13,920 --> 01:54:17,010
And if you don't come from the
heritage, it's it's yours by

1831
01:54:17,010 --> 01:54:20,170
adoption if you want it.
But we have the scriptures, we

1832
01:54:20,170 --> 01:54:22,930
have these spiritual fathers, we
have ancient traditions that

1833
01:54:22,930 --> 01:54:25,130
teach us who we are and who we
should be.

1834
01:54:26,610 --> 01:54:30,810
And it's when you realize that,
and you have in your heart

1835
01:54:30,810 --> 01:54:34,010
planted that seed, the promise
made to the Father, others, and

1836
01:54:34,010 --> 01:54:36,930
you acknowledge that you're on
the path to redemption.

1837
01:54:37,690 --> 01:54:40,490
And without that, without,
without recognizing where you

1838
01:54:40,490 --> 01:54:44,690
come from and acknowledging it,
you'll you won't ever learn the

1839
01:54:44,690 --> 01:54:47,690
lessons that we need to learn.
Yeah, yeah.

1840
01:54:48,050 --> 01:54:53,130
And and right now, Mormonism is
right back to where to where

1841
01:54:53,130 --> 01:54:56,690
those those Jews were in the Old
Testament, right?

1842
01:54:56,690 --> 01:55:02,570
We we are right there wrapped up
in our wealth, you know.

1843
01:55:02,570 --> 01:55:05,090
No, no, no.
The Lord would never let us

1844
01:55:05,090 --> 01:55:07,770
fall.
He lets us fall every day if we

1845
01:55:07,770 --> 01:55:10,840
want him to.
All right, so here's a fun one

1846
01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:14,320
comment, little little snippet
of a comment he makes on

1847
01:55:14,320 --> 01:55:18,720
December 8th, 1940.
He said at a meeting.

1848
01:55:18,720 --> 01:55:24,320
He says there are 150 people
here today. 120 of them are

1849
01:55:24,320 --> 01:55:28,640
eligible to be unchurched.
Can you can you think of 1 word

1850
01:55:28,640 --> 01:55:31,360
today that indicates apostasy
here today?

1851
01:55:32,240 --> 01:55:33,960
Yeah.
Can you think of 1 word that

1852
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:37,560
indicates apostasy here today?
Yeah, that is the charge against

1853
01:55:37,560 --> 01:55:39,930
this people.
And if the spirit that has been

1854
01:55:39,930 --> 01:55:43,570
here today is the spirit of
apostasy, then I recommend that

1855
01:55:43,570 --> 01:55:48,330
spirit.
Something has happened to Muster

1856
01:55:48,330 --> 01:55:51,970
now, right?
Because you get, you get that up

1857
01:55:51,970 --> 01:55:56,210
to this point, Muster has kind
of been playing nice, right?

1858
01:55:56,210 --> 01:56:01,650
He's been he's been kind of
deferential to to the Authority,

1859
01:56:01,650 --> 01:56:04,410
so to speak.
And now for whatever reason, the

1860
01:56:04,410 --> 01:56:07,850
man seems to be unleashed.
He's he's off the chain.

1861
01:56:09,610 --> 01:56:11,850
Yeah, he is.
He's, he's really rising to the

1862
01:56:11,850 --> 01:56:13,450
mark.
And part of it probably was

1863
01:56:13,450 --> 01:56:17,530
because at this point, John Y
Barlow being the president of

1864
01:56:17,530 --> 01:56:20,850
the Quorum, he's spending a lot
of time down in Short Creek,

1865
01:56:20,850 --> 01:56:22,490
which becomes Colorado City,
right.

1866
01:56:23,050 --> 01:56:27,770
And so Joseph Mosser is the next
in line by authority, but he's

1867
01:56:27,770 --> 01:56:32,250
kind of left with this presiding
position in Salt Lake in in to

1868
01:56:32,250 --> 01:56:34,090
all the people that are going to
those meetings.

1869
01:56:34,570 --> 01:56:36,490
And so he's left with the bag,
you know?

1870
01:56:37,400 --> 01:56:40,200
But personally, I also think
it's around this time that he's

1871
01:56:40,200 --> 01:56:43,400
seen it and had a personal
visitation with the Lord.

1872
01:56:43,760 --> 01:56:48,480
That was my next question.
And I can't prove that you can.

1873
01:56:49,320 --> 01:56:50,040
I can't.
I can't.

1874
01:56:50,040 --> 01:56:52,600
Well, no, not by not by date, I
can't.

1875
01:56:52,640 --> 01:56:56,120
I I know, I know.
By the end of his life, he

1876
01:56:56,120 --> 01:56:57,760
certainly testified that in
fact.

1877
01:56:57,760 --> 01:57:02,280
I mean if I had gone through
like one of Lyman Jessup's

1878
01:57:02,280 --> 01:57:05,400
journals, I could have found the
first time he made a testimony

1879
01:57:05,400 --> 01:57:08,080
like this.
But in the 1940s he starts

1880
01:57:09,760 --> 01:57:16,200
bearing a testimony but he uses
like double negatives and but I,

1881
01:57:16,200 --> 01:57:20,680
I, I understand why he does this
because he he was very much

1882
01:57:22,120 --> 01:57:25,520
under a conviction that you
shouldn't overtly declare

1883
01:57:25,520 --> 01:57:32,040
yourself but that the Holy Ghost
should testify right of of of

1884
01:57:32,040 --> 01:57:33,880
something that you you know that
you have right.

1885
01:57:34,680 --> 01:57:42,440
But he would say stuff like I
can't not testify or I couldn't

1886
01:57:42,480 --> 01:57:45,280
not I couldn't speak to you and
tell you that I haven't seen my

1887
01:57:45,280 --> 01:57:47,840
Savior Jesus Christ.
Like, he starts to say that

1888
01:57:47,840 --> 01:57:53,080
stuff in about the 1940s, right?
And and and and that would fit

1889
01:57:53,080 --> 01:57:56,680
right because now now he's off
the chain and that was my next

1890
01:57:56,680 --> 01:57:58,720
question.
Is there any indication that he

1891
01:57:58,720 --> 01:58:03,590
had that?
His calling an election made

1892
01:58:03,590 --> 01:58:06,230
sure they're with the Savior
personally appearing to him

1893
01:58:07,190 --> 01:58:09,870
prior to these sermons.
Because they they have a

1894
01:58:09,910 --> 01:58:13,270
different tone now.
Sure.

1895
01:58:13,310 --> 01:58:13,990
No.
And I don't know.

1896
01:58:14,030 --> 01:58:14,910
I don't know when it would have
been.

1897
01:58:14,910 --> 01:58:18,030
I mean by we know that at least
by 1938, when they were in that

1898
01:58:18,030 --> 01:58:21,510
council, right?
And look grand, Wooley asks, do

1899
01:58:21,510 --> 01:58:23,870
we have an apostle of Jesus
Christ?

1900
01:58:23,870 --> 01:58:27,990
That's fully qualified, right?
And they didn't know any anyone

1901
01:58:27,990 --> 01:58:30,990
who was.
And so at least by that point,

1902
01:58:31,750 --> 01:58:33,030
there was a mission that there
wasn't.

1903
01:58:33,110 --> 01:58:36,150
But at this point, it's very
possible that muster had

1904
01:58:36,150 --> 01:58:38,950
received that visitation.
Now let me ask, and I don't know

1905
01:58:38,950 --> 01:58:42,630
that for sure at this point.
Let me ask you this.

1906
01:58:42,670 --> 01:58:49,550
Is there any indication that any
other people within the this

1907
01:58:49,550 --> 01:58:54,110
council had had had that
visitation as well?

1908
01:58:54,110 --> 01:58:58,990
Or does this seem to be simply
something that is?

1909
01:58:59,350 --> 01:59:03,790
Unique to muster at this point,
as far as I know from these

1910
01:59:03,790 --> 01:59:05,310
group, from the group of men
that we're dealing with

1911
01:59:05,310 --> 01:59:09,830
currently, it was him.
He's the only one that had that

1912
01:59:09,830 --> 01:59:12,590
experience as far as I know.
Now, is there?

1913
01:59:12,630 --> 01:59:16,830
They said that Lord Wooley had
Lauren Wooley and John Wooley

1914
01:59:16,830 --> 01:59:18,430
had right, but they're dead at
this point.

1915
01:59:18,910 --> 01:59:22,430
Right.
So let me ask you this are is

1916
01:59:22,430 --> 01:59:24,590
there anything you can see in
the writings?

1917
01:59:25,060 --> 01:59:29,980
That would indicate if guys like
John, John Y Barlow are

1918
01:59:30,220 --> 01:59:33,500
recognizing that something has
happened and are they now

1919
01:59:34,220 --> 01:59:37,700
beginning to be deferential, a
little bit too muscle.

1920
01:59:39,460 --> 01:59:42,180
I don't want to get hate either
for this because I have friends

1921
01:59:42,180 --> 01:59:44,740
on both sides and I know this is
going to make like.

1922
01:59:46,420 --> 01:59:50,220
We know that like we know that
some people with between John Y

1923
01:59:50,220 --> 01:59:53,940
Barlow being a spiritual father
to like the Short Creek side and

1924
01:59:53,940 --> 01:59:58,140
then like Joseph Musser is the
man to the Allred group, right?

1925
01:59:58,140 --> 02:00:01,300
Like I don't come from either
side and I don't want to offend

1926
02:00:01,300 --> 02:00:05,140
anyone like in in comments or be
meaning to be to belittle

1927
02:00:05,140 --> 02:00:08,180
anyone.
I've heard it from the Allred

1928
02:00:08,180 --> 02:00:12,900
group, and I kind of like this
interpretation that John Y

1929
02:00:12,900 --> 02:00:16,500
Barlow and Joseph Musser were
kind of like Jared and the

1930
02:00:16,500 --> 02:00:21,660
brother of Jared, and so Jared
was the head of the family, but

1931
02:00:21,820 --> 02:00:24,460
when a revelation was necessary,
Jared would go.

1932
02:00:24,900 --> 02:00:26,460
To Mahan Rai Mori Ankimer,
Right.

1933
02:00:26,460 --> 02:00:30,180
And so it was similar in a way,
where John Y Barlow was the

1934
02:00:30,180 --> 02:00:33,020
leader of the people, and he had
a good head on his shoulders.

1935
02:00:33,020 --> 02:00:36,620
He had good motives.
Now, maybe not all of the

1936
02:00:36,620 --> 02:00:38,820
methods were correct, but he had
good motives.

1937
02:00:38,820 --> 02:00:42,540
He was a good person, Joseph
Musser says over and over and

1938
02:00:42,540 --> 02:00:45,100
over again.
And he's that he sustains John Y

1939
02:00:45,100 --> 02:00:50,300
Barlow, that John Y Barlow is a
prophet of God and that he is

1940
02:00:50,340 --> 02:00:52,020
doing a good job leading the
people.

1941
02:00:53,540 --> 02:00:56,880
You know, there's some
personality issues at times

1942
02:00:56,880 --> 02:00:59,240
between them personally, but
they work together.

1943
02:00:59,520 --> 02:01:03,800
And so I could see John why
Barlow being that Jared and then

1944
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:09,200
Joseph Musser being the one that
John why went to to get the word

1945
02:01:09,200 --> 02:01:14,720
of the Lord when it was dire.
Gotcha.

1946
02:01:15,200 --> 02:01:17,280
Gotcha.
OK, let's read some more

1947
02:01:17,280 --> 02:01:20,800
sermons.
This is this is a fun one.

1948
02:01:20,800 --> 02:01:29,130
OK, this is February 1941 and
Joseph Muster says we are told

1949
02:01:29,130 --> 02:01:31,170
by our Lord and Savior that
there would be a time when the

1950
02:01:31,170 --> 02:01:34,650
people would say low the Lord is
here.

1951
02:01:35,090 --> 02:01:38,530
But the study, the scriptures.
There are many Christs and many

1952
02:01:38,530 --> 02:01:42,170
prophets in this day and age.
Some say they are different

1953
02:01:42,170 --> 02:01:45,090
kinds of angels.
Lord Woolley told us of a man

1954
02:01:45,090 --> 02:01:47,410
who said an Angel revealed
something to him.

1955
02:01:48,090 --> 02:01:51,090
And Lauren said, well, why
didn't that damn full Angel tell

1956
02:01:51,090 --> 02:01:57,100
me about it?
I said I I said.

1957
02:01:57,100 --> 02:02:01,300
In my mind's eye I see
440,000,000 angels of the devil.

1958
02:02:01,700 --> 02:02:05,860
So hold on, why didn't that damn
fool Angel tell me about it?

1959
02:02:06,100 --> 02:02:09,500
40,000 men hold the Priested, I
said.

1960
02:02:09,500 --> 02:02:12,700
In my mind's eye I see 40
million angels of the devil

1961
02:02:12,700 --> 02:02:14,980
trying to destroy the people and
lead them astray.

1962
02:02:15,340 --> 02:02:18,380
That is the difference between
the ones who hold the Priested

1963
02:02:18,900 --> 02:02:20,220
and those who would like to hold
it.

1964
02:02:21,700 --> 02:02:25,000
Well, says one, aren't the
Lamanites going to do a great

1965
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:26,600
work?
Of course they are.

1966
02:02:26,720 --> 02:02:29,560
They are going to bring forth
much restoration, but not the

1967
02:02:29,560 --> 02:02:32,440
fullness of the restoration.
Of course, the knee fights and

1968
02:02:32,440 --> 02:02:34,160
Lamanites will have their
prophets.

1969
02:02:34,640 --> 02:02:36,360
There have always been prophets
on the earth.

1970
02:02:38,200 --> 02:02:40,560
But the one prophet, the
mouthpiece of God, who will

1971
02:02:40,560 --> 02:02:43,400
stand at the head of this
dispensation, cannot be replaced

1972
02:02:43,400 --> 02:02:45,720
on this earth.
For upon him rests the

1973
02:02:45,720 --> 02:02:47,840
responsibility of this
dispensation.

1974
02:02:48,560 --> 02:02:51,200
Those keys are still on the
earth, and will continue to be

1975
02:02:51,200 --> 02:02:53,600
on the earth until the reign of
Christ upon the earth.

1976
02:02:54,200 --> 02:02:57,880
Elias brought the keys of the
Restoration and gave them to

1977
02:02:57,880 --> 02:03:00,880
Joseph Smith.
Then Elijah came and bestowed

1978
02:03:00,880 --> 02:03:03,320
upon him the keys of turning the
hearts of the fathers to the

1979
02:03:03,320 --> 02:03:06,000
children, and the hearts of the
children to the fathers.

1980
02:03:06,760 --> 02:03:10,080
I want to protest with all the
zeal and power that I have and

1981
02:03:10,080 --> 02:03:12,920
in the name of the Lord Jesus
Christ against subordinating

1982
02:03:12,920 --> 02:03:17,160
Joseph Smith, that great and
glorious prophet Joseph is a

1983
02:03:17,160 --> 02:03:19,320
God, one of the Trinity of this
planet.

1984
02:03:19,920 --> 02:03:22,720
Don't you understand?
His own people didn't know that,

1985
02:03:22,720 --> 02:03:26,840
for they would not have killed
him had they known he is a God

1986
02:03:26,840 --> 02:03:30,840
in the Trinity of this earth.
He is going to wind up all

1987
02:03:30,840 --> 02:03:33,440
things and will take his place
with Adam, our God.

1988
02:03:35,640 --> 02:03:38,440
Full stop for a second.
What does it mean?

1989
02:03:38,440 --> 02:03:40,480
We said his own people killed
him.

1990
02:03:41,320 --> 02:03:43,600
Oh, yeah.
So that's a, you know,

1991
02:03:43,600 --> 02:03:48,770
conspiracy like William and
Wilson Law and William Marks and

1992
02:03:49,330 --> 02:03:51,770
the Higbees and Fosters, you
know?

1993
02:03:52,130 --> 02:03:54,010
All right.
I just felt the doctrine of

1994
02:03:54,090 --> 02:03:55,850
Christ.
People get excited right there.

1995
02:03:55,850 --> 02:03:58,250
And I wanted to tamp that down
right now before they could.

1996
02:03:58,410 --> 02:04:00,010
Oh, oh, oh, yeah.
So we don't.

1997
02:04:00,250 --> 02:04:02,850
Yeah, I guess we can cater to
them a little bit, but.

1998
02:04:03,570 --> 02:04:05,130
Yeah, yeah.
I just want them to know if

1999
02:04:05,130 --> 02:04:08,450
they're not listening to this.
Before they got all excited and

2000
02:04:08,450 --> 02:04:09,090
no.
Right.

2001
02:04:09,370 --> 02:04:12,370
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, not for you with President

2002
02:04:12,450 --> 02:04:18,400
Brigham Young.
And you know, I I heard one of

2003
02:04:18,400 --> 02:04:24,200
the simplest explanations why
that that can't be is that if it

2004
02:04:24,200 --> 02:04:27,440
was true that Brigham Young was
involved in a conspiracy to kill

2005
02:04:27,440 --> 02:04:32,320
Joseph Smith, if Orson Pratt had
found out about it, the whole

2006
02:04:32,320 --> 02:04:35,120
nothing would have stopped the
whole world from knowing that

2007
02:04:35,120 --> 02:04:37,520
Brigham Young murdered Joseph
Smith.

2008
02:04:37,600 --> 02:04:40,760
Because Orson Pratt and Brigham
Young had a very interesting

2009
02:04:40,760 --> 02:04:44,130
relationship and.
Just a scoutch.

2010
02:04:44,170 --> 02:04:48,930
There was not more, there was
not more loyalty to Brigham than

2011
02:04:48,930 --> 02:04:51,730
there was to Joseph.
Now, there were ten that I will

2012
02:04:51,730 --> 02:04:54,050
say that there are tender
moments between Orson Pratt and

2013
02:04:54,050 --> 02:04:57,810
Brigham Young that people are
probably not aware of, but there

2014
02:04:57,810 --> 02:05:01,250
are fiery moments as well.
Yep, Yep.

2015
02:05:01,770 --> 02:05:05,170
You know, and I always find it
interesting that those two guys

2016
02:05:05,170 --> 02:05:10,010
could disagree that vehemently.
I mean go.

2017
02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:13,840
You know, metaphorically
speaking.

2018
02:05:13,840 --> 02:05:20,080
Go to blows, have a cage match,
and then, you know, patch

2019
02:05:20,080 --> 02:05:22,800
everything up and be just fine
and continue on.

2020
02:05:24,040 --> 02:05:30,720
Yep, Brigham Young was really
good at even if he had to send

2021
02:05:30,720 --> 02:05:32,880
your feathers a little bit, he'd
bring you back in.

2022
02:05:32,880 --> 02:05:38,040
In fact, there was a moment
around 1860 where even Wilford

2023
02:05:38,040 --> 02:05:40,800
Woodruff was just getting ticked
off with Orson for some reason,

2024
02:05:41,700 --> 02:05:43,780
and Wilfred Woodruff was like
Brigham.

2025
02:05:43,780 --> 02:05:46,100
Why don't we just excommunicate
him and get it done with?

2026
02:05:47,180 --> 02:05:51,020
And Brigham tells Wilfred
Woodruff, no, I'm don't worry,

2027
02:05:51,020 --> 02:05:53,740
I'm going to rub his ears until
until he gets it right.

2028
02:05:59,780 --> 02:06:02,860
That's awesome.
No, I yeah.

2029
02:06:03,420 --> 02:06:09,180
I I love Musser's testimony of
Joseph Smith right there.

2030
02:06:09,920 --> 02:06:15,880
Right, because he's trying in a
way that apostles during that

2031
02:06:15,880 --> 02:06:20,920
time and since haven't been
brave enough to testify of him.

2032
02:06:22,880 --> 02:06:24,240
Good stuff.
Sure.

2033
02:06:24,800 --> 02:06:27,400
Yeah.
You got a point there.

2034
02:06:27,400 --> 02:06:31,480
I think you made a good point
that we don't hear hardly

2035
02:06:31,480 --> 02:06:34,800
anything about Joseph Smith in
in a church now, besides the

2036
02:06:34,800 --> 02:06:37,480
fact that he was the instrument
of the Lord and bringing forth

2037
02:06:37,480 --> 02:06:41,880
the Book of Mormon.
But no one talks about him and

2038
02:06:41,880 --> 02:06:44,880
his teachings, his personal
revelations.

2039
02:06:45,720 --> 02:06:47,960
We don't talk about that because
that goes back to what we talked

2040
02:06:47,960 --> 02:06:52,760
about earlier is he answers the
questions of how did God come to

2041
02:06:52,760 --> 02:06:55,320
be God?
And we don't focus on that

2042
02:06:55,320 --> 02:06:57,520
anymore.
Nope.

2043
02:06:58,520 --> 02:07:00,880
What else you got?
I got some more stuff.

2044
02:07:00,880 --> 02:07:05,120
All right, So April 6th, 1941,
he reads an excerpt from The

2045
02:07:05,120 --> 02:07:10,630
Millennial Star, volume 15, page
727, Where they were starting to

2046
02:07:10,630 --> 02:07:14,390
do the foot washing ordinances
in the Kirtland Temple, and he

2047
02:07:14,390 --> 02:07:15,510
wanted to read that to the
people.

2048
02:07:15,550 --> 02:07:20,870
So what that passage says is
accordingly, we proceeded to

2049
02:07:20,870 --> 02:07:23,830
cleanse our faces and our feet
and then proceeded to wash

2050
02:07:23,830 --> 02:07:26,270
another's feet 11 another's
feet.

2051
02:07:27,350 --> 02:07:29,990
This is the sacred ordinance of
washing a feet, which is entered

2052
02:07:29,990 --> 02:07:32,310
into in sacred places under
sacred conditions.

2053
02:07:32,350 --> 02:07:35,870
President Sydney Rigdon first
washed President Joseph Smith

2054
02:07:36,190 --> 02:07:40,810
Junior's feet and then intern
was washed by him, after which

2055
02:07:40,810 --> 02:07:43,970
President Rigdon washed
President Joseph Smith Senior

2056
02:07:44,210 --> 02:07:47,610
and Hiram Smith.
President Joseph Smith Junior

2057
02:07:47,610 --> 02:07:51,490
washed President Frederick G
Williams and then President

2058
02:07:51,490 --> 02:07:55,770
Hiram Smith washed President
David Whitmer's and President

2059
02:07:55,770 --> 02:07:59,410
Oliver Cowdrey's feet.
Then President David Whitmer

2060
02:07:59,410 --> 02:08:02,010
washed President William W
Phelps his feet.

2061
02:08:02,410 --> 02:08:05,730
And intern President Phelps
washed President John Whitmer's

2062
02:08:05,730 --> 02:08:08,300
feet.
The bishops and their counselors

2063
02:08:08,300 --> 02:08:12,500
were then washed, after which we
protect, we protect of bread and

2064
02:08:12,500 --> 02:08:15,620
wine.
That was how many presidents

2065
02:08:15,620 --> 02:08:16,700
were there?
Yeah.

2066
02:08:16,860 --> 02:08:19,940
I was going to say not only were
there that many presidents, but

2067
02:08:19,940 --> 02:08:23,340
that was getting a little long
like some of the Begap sections

2068
02:08:23,340 --> 02:08:28,220
of the Old Testament.
No, it's it's important why I

2069
02:08:28,220 --> 02:08:32,540
read that though.
So that's that's Joseph Musser

2070
02:08:32,540 --> 02:08:34,620
eating from the Millennial star,
and this is his commentary.

2071
02:08:35,620 --> 02:08:40,180
On the following day, the feet
washing ordinance was proceeded

2072
02:08:40,180 --> 02:08:42,740
with on behalf of the Council of
the 12th.

2073
02:08:43,580 --> 02:08:47,660
All of these men whose feet had
been washed on the previous day

2074
02:08:48,460 --> 02:08:51,740
were termed Presidents were not
of the quorum of the 12.

2075
02:08:52,380 --> 02:08:55,380
Now the Quorum of the Twelve
tries to preside over

2076
02:08:55,380 --> 02:08:58,180
everything.
The reason for the antagonism in

2077
02:08:58,180 --> 02:09:01,260
the Church today between the
Church and this group of people

2078
02:09:01,260 --> 02:09:04,450
here today is because they
refused to recognize the

2079
02:09:04,450 --> 02:09:06,650
authority of the priesthood of
God upon the earth.

2080
02:09:06,650 --> 02:09:10,850
Today this group of people was
selected to keep the fires of

2081
02:09:10,850 --> 02:09:13,530
faith burning in the hearts of
the Saints of the Lord Jesus

2082
02:09:13,530 --> 02:09:16,970
Christ.
This feet washing ordinance was

2083
02:09:16,970 --> 02:09:20,810
given to your priesthood council
under divine circumstances and

2084
02:09:20,810 --> 02:09:25,170
it is to be extended when the
time comes and is to be extended

2085
02:09:25,370 --> 02:09:28,210
to this group.
That is the reason we have been

2086
02:09:28,210 --> 02:09:30,930
cast out, because we have
received the authority of the

2087
02:09:30,930 --> 02:09:35,900
Priested On the earth, 97% of
the people rejected the

2088
02:09:35,900 --> 02:09:39,020
principle of celestial plural
marriage because they were

2089
02:09:39,020 --> 02:09:43,100
symbols, the pints of Mormonism
because they did not have the

2090
02:09:43,100 --> 02:09:46,580
capacity to fill up the bushel
there.

2091
02:09:47,100 --> 02:09:51,100
I find on on that there's
there's a couple of things.

2092
02:09:51,100 --> 02:09:57,100
One is like like Joseph Musser
said, the term president becomes

2093
02:09:57,100 --> 02:10:00,860
very interesting, especially
when considering it wasn't

2094
02:10:00,860 --> 02:10:06,610
necessarily.
The quorum of the 12 next.

2095
02:10:07,570 --> 02:10:10,650
So, so here I feel like Muster's
really showing you that, hey,

2096
02:10:10,650 --> 02:10:15,250
there's a dichotomy here between
he he's basically saying, look,

2097
02:10:15,250 --> 02:10:22,650
the 12 have overstepped their
bounce and in so doing we now

2098
02:10:22,650 --> 02:10:26,610
have a level of unrighteous
dominion going on.

2099
02:10:27,810 --> 02:10:30,330
Well he's and he's also showing
that there's a priest in order

2100
02:10:30,330 --> 02:10:33,100
above of the quorum of the 12
because these presidents and

2101
02:10:34,100 --> 02:10:38,260
minister this foot washing
ordinance to each other and then

2102
02:10:38,260 --> 02:10:41,140
the and the bishops before the
corner of the 12 received it.

2103
02:10:41,820 --> 02:10:47,660
Right, right.
And and so and and and.

2104
02:10:48,300 --> 02:10:52,660
Correct me if I'm wrong here,
This foot washing has certain

2105
02:10:52,660 --> 02:10:54,980
second anointing overtones to
it.

2106
02:10:56,100 --> 02:10:58,300
It does.
It's not the second anointing,

2107
02:10:58,300 --> 02:11:02,400
but it is well, I like to call.
I call it the solemn assembly

2108
02:11:02,720 --> 02:11:04,520
endowment.
Right.

2109
02:11:05,000 --> 02:11:09,400
And it's it's different than
what you receive later in the

2110
02:11:09,400 --> 02:11:12,760
Nabu era endowment through a
through what most people in the

2111
02:11:12,760 --> 02:11:16,360
LDS church experience with the
endowment, with washings and

2112
02:11:16,360 --> 02:11:18,600
anointings, the placing of the
whole of the garment of the holy

2113
02:11:18,600 --> 02:11:23,160
priesthood and then the the
creation drama right where you

2114
02:11:23,160 --> 02:11:25,840
make oaths and covenants and all
that like that.

2115
02:11:25,920 --> 02:11:30,970
That's not what happens here.
What happens here is the people

2116
02:11:30,970 --> 02:11:33,690
were were cleansed.
They cleanse their body, their

2117
02:11:33,690 --> 02:11:38,610
hands, their faces, their feet.
And they were even perfumed with

2118
02:11:39,250 --> 02:11:44,250
with cinnamon, cinnamon,
whiskey, you know, because it

2119
02:11:44,450 --> 02:11:47,730
apparently it gave the
appearance or feeling as the

2120
02:11:47,730 --> 02:11:50,930
alcohol dried on your skin that
you were being lifted up, you

2121
02:11:50,930 --> 02:11:56,850
were being elevated, you know.
And so it's symbolic, right?

2122
02:11:57,370 --> 02:12:03,590
But then their their feet were
washed and then anointed with

2123
02:12:03,630 --> 02:12:07,990
oil, and then your head was
anointed with oil and you were

2124
02:12:07,990 --> 02:12:11,430
given prophetic blessings which
were sealed upon your head.

2125
02:12:12,510 --> 02:12:16,790
And so it's very similar to the
second anointing, but it's

2126
02:12:16,790 --> 02:12:22,710
actually a prelude to, I would
say a prelude to your second

2127
02:12:22,710 --> 02:12:25,990
anointing and even maybe even
should be before your first

2128
02:12:25,990 --> 02:12:31,250
endowment.
And for example, though John

2129
02:12:31,250 --> 02:12:36,050
Taylor was the presiding elder
up in Canada for a lot for, for

2130
02:12:36,050 --> 02:12:39,730
a while, right.
And he wasn't in Kirtland when

2131
02:12:39,730 --> 02:12:43,010
this was done.
And then when vacancies in the

2132
02:12:43,010 --> 02:12:46,410
quorum of the 12 arrive,
occurred and they needed to fill

2133
02:12:46,410 --> 02:12:53,650
up the quorum and Joseph Smith
was, was he incapacitated or was

2134
02:12:53,650 --> 02:12:56,010
he in Liberty at this time?
Joseph Smith may have been in

2135
02:12:56,010 --> 02:13:00,530
Liberty Jail when this happened,
but John Taylor was called to

2136
02:13:00,530 --> 02:13:04,410
fill up the Quorum of the 12th
and Brigham Young, knowing that

2137
02:13:04,410 --> 02:13:07,970
John Taylor had not been
involved in that solemn

2138
02:13:07,970 --> 02:13:10,410
assembly.
Because it wasn't just the 70s

2139
02:13:10,410 --> 02:13:13,970
and the apostles who got it, it
was the elders you know as well.

2140
02:13:14,410 --> 02:13:18,050
But he got he, Brigham Young
administered this foot

2141
02:13:18,050 --> 02:13:23,610
Washington John to John Taylor
to qualify him to be an apostle.

2142
02:13:24,250 --> 02:13:29,200
You know, and it wasn't until
those were done for some men,

2143
02:13:29,360 --> 02:13:31,760
until they were allowed to be
sent on missions to England.

2144
02:13:32,440 --> 02:13:34,160
Right.
And so it's interesting that

2145
02:13:34,160 --> 02:13:38,120
that was kind of viewed as an
ordinance that would empower you

2146
02:13:38,120 --> 02:13:40,560
to to fulfill the calling of an
apostle.

2147
02:13:43,840 --> 02:13:46,600
So yeah, there's it very much is
a prelude, I think.

2148
02:13:47,680 --> 02:13:50,840
Yeah, there's.
So there's definitely that part

2149
02:13:52,600 --> 02:13:55,960
the the other thing that that I
find.

2150
02:13:57,250 --> 02:14:04,250
Just fascinating about about
what he says next is that it was

2151
02:14:06,410 --> 02:14:09,850
their mission to keep the how do
you put that?

2152
02:14:09,850 --> 02:14:12,250
The fires alive in the hearts of
the Saints?

2153
02:14:12,730 --> 02:14:16,530
Yeah, the fires of faith burning
in the hearts of the Saints.

2154
02:14:17,530 --> 02:14:20,570
So here's something that I'm
going to get some heat for.

2155
02:14:20,850 --> 02:14:24,130
And look, I I've taken some
heat.

2156
02:14:25,190 --> 02:14:28,830
Awfully close to home over this
next statement because I've made

2157
02:14:28,830 --> 02:14:30,550
it before, but I'm going to make
it again.

2158
02:14:31,150 --> 02:14:33,510
When I say close to home, I
don't mean in my home.

2159
02:14:34,430 --> 02:14:38,390
Oh, sure.
If we are not fulfilling our

2160
02:14:38,390 --> 02:14:42,950
role as that light on a hill,
right?

2161
02:14:42,950 --> 02:14:46,950
If we are allowing A bushel to
be put over that light, what

2162
02:14:46,950 --> 02:14:49,790
good are we?
I mean, what what are we doing

2163
02:14:49,790 --> 02:14:51,670
here?
I mean, don't get me wrong, it's

2164
02:14:51,670 --> 02:14:53,230
cool.
I get my ordinances.

2165
02:14:53,910 --> 02:15:00,110
It's cool that I get my
blessings, But if if we're not

2166
02:15:00,110 --> 02:15:03,590
keeping that alive for others,
if we're not inspiring others to

2167
02:15:03,590 --> 02:15:06,430
go seek those out, what?
What are we good for?

2168
02:15:06,790 --> 02:15:08,590
Are we salt?
That's lost it safer?

2169
02:15:10,030 --> 02:15:12,430
Yeah.
Or we're like the the Dead Sea

2170
02:15:13,750 --> 02:15:17,190
that collects all the water and
never lets anything out and then

2171
02:15:17,190 --> 02:15:21,470
it's it dies and everything
that's in it dies versus like

2172
02:15:22,110 --> 02:15:26,430
the Sea of Galilee, that's that
let's it brings in water from

2173
02:15:26,430 --> 02:15:29,670
its tributaries then it gives,
it gives water out, right.

2174
02:15:30,350 --> 02:15:32,870
Yeah, yeah.
No, we so I love.

2175
02:15:35,950 --> 02:15:39,230
We've got to fulfill that role
or we're in trouble.

2176
02:15:40,270 --> 02:15:43,030
And on that note, you know,
Joseph Musser here is saying

2177
02:15:43,030 --> 02:15:46,590
this feet washing ordinance was
given to the council, but it

2178
02:15:46,590 --> 02:15:50,070
will be given and extended when
the time comes to this group,

2179
02:15:50,750 --> 02:15:51,510
right.
Right.

2180
02:15:52,490 --> 02:15:55,490
So this is something like we're
we're now keeping ordinances

2181
02:15:55,490 --> 02:16:00,050
alive because when was the last
time that that ordinance was was

2182
02:16:00,130 --> 02:16:03,770
given right when did the church
discontinue doing that?

2183
02:16:04,370 --> 02:16:06,090
I was I don't even know.
I know that there's.

2184
02:16:06,690 --> 02:16:07,970
I don't know.
I was going to ask you.

2185
02:16:08,010 --> 02:16:11,610
You know more than I do about
this, though.

2186
02:16:11,610 --> 02:16:16,170
There was discussions in the
1880s where John Taylor was

2187
02:16:16,170 --> 02:16:18,450
thinking about reinstituting
that, in fact.

2188
02:16:18,810 --> 02:16:20,050
So here's the piece of the
puzzle, right.

2189
02:16:20,050 --> 02:16:22,770
So if you go into like the Navu
endowment stuff and the 2nd

2190
02:16:22,770 --> 02:16:27,050
endowment stuff, there's no foot
washing for the 2nd anointing,

2191
02:16:27,890 --> 02:16:32,410
but then later exposes show that
the church is doing a foot

2192
02:16:32,410 --> 02:16:35,930
washing with the 2nd anointing.
And So what happened was John

2193
02:16:35,930 --> 02:16:38,809
Taylor is there in the School of
the Prophets and he's gotten

2194
02:16:38,809 --> 02:16:42,020
everyone that remembers
receiving any ordinance that

2195
02:16:42,020 --> 02:16:44,860
ever was given by Joseph Smith.
And they're talking about what

2196
02:16:44,860 --> 02:16:46,540
circumstances was this given
under?

2197
02:16:46,780 --> 02:16:50,059
Like, let's get this all like we
don't want to lose anything.

2198
02:16:50,500 --> 02:16:55,020
And I think that's when John
Taylor, especially with his

2199
02:16:55,020 --> 02:16:58,100
personal experience of having
received that foot washing from

2200
02:16:58,100 --> 02:17:02,299
Brigham Young before he was
ordained to the apostleship, he

2201
02:17:02,299 --> 02:17:04,500
realized we need to start doing
this again.

2202
02:17:04,780 --> 02:17:08,629
And but it wasn't given just to
anyone.

2203
02:17:08,629 --> 02:17:11,510
It was they.
They I think John Taylor made it

2204
02:17:11,510 --> 02:17:15,469
the policy to put it as part of
the second anointing and it

2205
02:17:15,469 --> 02:17:19,670
would make sense.
That makes sense to me because

2206
02:17:21,830 --> 02:17:24,709
if it had been administered
already to so many in Joseph's

2207
02:17:24,709 --> 02:17:29,230
day in the 1830s that he didn't
have to readminister that in the

2208
02:17:29,230 --> 02:17:33,750
1840s when he was doing
endowments and 2nd annulments

2209
02:17:33,750 --> 02:17:36,190
because they'd already had that
done right check.

2210
02:17:36,430 --> 02:17:38,820
You know they don't have to redo
that, right?

2211
02:17:40,059 --> 02:17:43,980
But John Taylor, I think,
synergized the solemn assembly,

2212
02:17:43,980 --> 02:17:49,820
foot washing and the 2nd
anointing as one, as one and one

2213
02:17:49,820 --> 02:17:51,620
endowment.
Gotcha.

2214
02:17:52,379 --> 02:17:55,780
And so there's like there's like
6 parts to like your to your

2215
02:17:55,780 --> 02:18:00,260
second endowment, right?
The the last of which is you

2216
02:18:00,260 --> 02:18:04,100
know, or two parts of which are
are anointings of your head.

2217
02:18:05,639 --> 02:18:09,799
In the same sermon, Joseph
Muster says plural marriage will

2218
02:18:09,799 --> 02:18:12,040
not save any person.
It will damn more than it will

2219
02:18:12,040 --> 02:18:14,040
save.
It is damning people today in

2220
02:18:14,040 --> 02:18:16,000
our group.
And it will damn you and me if

2221
02:18:16,000 --> 02:18:18,440
we don't live up to the words of
God and accept all His

2222
02:18:18,440 --> 02:18:21,480
commandments.
But it's not necessary for

2223
02:18:21,680 --> 02:18:26,680
exultation, right?
No, no, no.

2224
02:18:30,719 --> 02:18:32,240
Let's see.
I'm looking for the next part.

2225
02:18:34,100 --> 02:18:35,700
So here's something interesting
for you.

2226
02:18:36,540 --> 02:18:42,980
May 11th, 1941, Joseph Muster
says there is no memory more

2227
02:18:42,980 --> 02:18:46,340
sacred in my mind than my Lord
Jesus Christ.

2228
02:18:46,940 --> 02:18:50,340
And next to him comes my noble
father, and next to him my

2229
02:18:50,340 --> 02:18:53,820
beautiful sacred mother.
No more noble and pure mother

2230
02:18:53,820 --> 02:18:56,900
ever lived, and no more noble
father ever graced this earth

2231
02:18:57,020 --> 02:18:59,660
except for Father Adam as my
Lord.

2232
02:18:59,660 --> 02:19:01,580
That is the message I want to
leave today.

2233
02:19:02,260 --> 02:19:04,990
So that's a that's an
interesting admission, right?

2234
02:19:04,990 --> 02:19:05,670
You call.
That.

2235
02:19:05,750 --> 02:19:08,469
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, he's yeah, at this point.

2236
02:19:08,750 --> 02:19:12,430
By that sermon, he's letting you
know I've right.

2237
02:19:14,270 --> 02:19:21,150
Yep, in May May 25th, 1941, he
says there is only one true

2238
02:19:21,150 --> 02:19:23,350
church, and the membership of
that church is very small.

2239
02:19:23,750 --> 02:19:24,990
That is the Church of the First
Born.

2240
02:19:25,830 --> 02:19:29,790
Representing the Church as we
know it is the Church of Jesus

2241
02:19:29,790 --> 02:19:32,350
Christ of Latterday Saints for
the purpose of being permitted

2242
02:19:32,350 --> 02:19:35,030
to hold property and in
defending themselves in

2243
02:19:35,030 --> 02:19:37,790
lawsuits.
But that is not the Church of

2244
02:19:37,790 --> 02:19:40,629
the First Born.
The Church of the First Born are

2245
02:19:40,629 --> 02:19:45,230
those who are true, full hearted
Latterday Saints and those whose

2246
02:19:45,230 --> 02:19:49,430
names are written in the Lambs
Book of life are there at birth,

2247
02:19:50,030 --> 02:19:52,350
there at birth.
And the only way we can get our

2248
02:19:52,350 --> 02:19:55,470
names out of that book is to
apostatize from the Church of

2249
02:19:55,470 --> 02:19:59,320
the First Born.
The Lambs book of Life is the

2250
02:19:59,320 --> 02:20:02,440
book I'm concerned about.
I would to God that all your

2251
02:20:02,440 --> 02:20:05,400
names were there written, and
would remain there throughout

2252
02:20:05,400 --> 02:20:08,320
all eternities.
That is the book from which we

2253
02:20:08,320 --> 02:20:11,920
will be judged.
There is no power on earth or in

2254
02:20:11,920 --> 02:20:14,080
hell that will take us out of
the Church of the first born

2255
02:20:14,080 --> 02:20:17,240
except our own actions.
Those who live the fullness of

2256
02:20:17,240 --> 02:20:20,400
the gospel according to their
best ability, according to the

2257
02:20:20,520 --> 02:20:23,280
their best wisdom and judgment,
and according to the strength

2258
02:20:23,280 --> 02:20:25,680
that they have, will never be
removed from the records of the

2259
02:20:25,680 --> 02:20:29,900
Church of the first Born.
So there is some incentive to go

2260
02:20:29,900 --> 02:20:33,900
on.
I like that because he gives he,

2261
02:20:33,900 --> 02:20:37,660
He allows room for individuals,
right?

2262
02:20:37,660 --> 02:20:42,180
The best you can do, the best
you can use all the wisdom you

2263
02:20:42,180 --> 02:20:48,940
got, and that'll be enough.
That'll be enough if you're if

2264
02:20:48,940 --> 02:20:55,380
you're pure in heart, if you're
honestly seeking the Lord's

2265
02:20:55,380 --> 02:20:59,850
will, it's enough.
And it's it's an encouraging

2266
02:20:59,850 --> 02:21:02,370
message to people who have been
done that they are.

2267
02:21:02,450 --> 02:21:05,650
They have done what they have
been told and got cut off from

2268
02:21:05,730 --> 02:21:10,490
for it.
And so he's saying you don't

2269
02:21:10,490 --> 02:21:12,210
work.
You've been cut off from the

2270
02:21:12,210 --> 02:21:13,890
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints.

2271
02:21:13,890 --> 02:21:16,290
But there's no one that can cut
you off from the Church of the

2272
02:21:16,290 --> 02:21:19,130
First Born except yourself.
So just keep doing what you're

2273
02:21:19,130 --> 02:21:20,370
doing.
Yep.

2274
02:21:20,970 --> 02:21:23,450
Absolutely.
So we talked a little bit about

2275
02:21:23,450 --> 02:21:27,150
the Adam God doctrine earlier
this in this talk he gives on

2276
02:21:27,150 --> 02:21:32,110
July 23rd, 1941.
He says our brother Jesus Christ

2277
02:21:32,350 --> 02:21:35,550
loves us and he is the Lord of
this earth at the present time.

2278
02:21:36,990 --> 02:21:39,270
He is not the Jehovah at the
present time.

2279
02:21:39,550 --> 02:21:42,710
He is the one who will be the
Jehovah when this earth is

2280
02:21:42,710 --> 02:21:46,270
sanctified.
That's the model of the Adam God

2281
02:21:46,270 --> 02:21:51,710
doctrine that I really subscribe
to and like is that if we in the

2282
02:21:51,710 --> 02:21:55,510
endowment, if we are to consider
ourselves as if we are Adam and

2283
02:21:55,510 --> 02:22:00,710
Eve, then you and I, if we reach
our exaltation, we will fulfill

2284
02:22:00,710 --> 02:22:04,470
the role of Michael, right?
And then our Savior Jesus

2285
02:22:04,470 --> 02:22:08,030
Christ, who redeemed us, will be
Jehovah to us as we're

2286
02:22:08,030 --> 02:22:12,710
fulfilling the role of Michael.
To me that clears up everything

2287
02:22:13,030 --> 02:22:15,630
with the Adam God doctrine.
Absolutely it does.

2288
02:22:16,430 --> 02:22:18,510
Without, without a doubt and and
the fact.

2289
02:22:21,040 --> 02:22:25,280
The fact that he's bold enough
now that he's elaborating on

2290
02:22:25,280 --> 02:22:31,640
this, that he is digging deep on
this again, he's had an

2291
02:22:31,640 --> 02:22:36,600
experience that has turned him,
that has unleashed him to to

2292
02:22:36,600 --> 02:22:40,360
start doing this, to do the
things that Joseph and Brigham

2293
02:22:40,520 --> 02:22:49,840
essentially did absolutely to
talk about the things that

2294
02:22:49,840 --> 02:22:54,360
Joseph and Brigham did.
He he said as at one time

2295
02:22:55,320 --> 02:23:00,760
relating, he's going to talk
about the the Angel coming to

2296
02:23:00,760 --> 02:23:02,960
Joseph Smith, telling him to
enter into the principal.

2297
02:23:02,960 --> 02:23:07,520
Here he says the Angel came to
him three times and on the last

2298
02:23:07,520 --> 02:23:10,120
trip he drew his sword and
threatened Joseph's life.

2299
02:23:10,440 --> 02:23:13,600
If you will not establish that
principle, another will be

2300
02:23:13,600 --> 02:23:16,440
raised up.
Joseph knew what would happen,

2301
02:23:16,770 --> 02:23:20,010
that it would cost him his life.
But it took courage to face the

2302
02:23:20,010 --> 02:23:23,010
world in that day, to introduce
a law that the entire world

2303
02:23:23,010 --> 02:23:25,810
would fight.
It took courage and it took the

2304
02:23:25,810 --> 02:23:29,250
spirit of the Lord.
And Joseph couldn't have done it

2305
02:23:29,250 --> 02:23:31,290
if he had not had the spirit of
the Lord.

2306
02:23:31,690 --> 02:23:34,570
People accuse us of wanting to
rush into polygamy because of

2307
02:23:34,570 --> 02:23:37,130
sexual desire.
Brigham and Heber did not want

2308
02:23:37,130 --> 02:23:39,650
to rush into it.
John Taylor had to do it.

2309
02:23:39,810 --> 02:23:43,060
And Lorenzo Snow, Brother Snow
told Joseph that he wanted to do

2310
02:23:43,060 --> 02:23:46,060
nothing but preach the gospel
and not be encumbered with a

2311
02:23:46,060 --> 02:23:48,940
family.
But I do want a Kingdom, he

2312
02:23:48,940 --> 02:23:50,820
said.
Then he asked him how he

2313
02:23:50,820 --> 02:23:53,100
expected to go back in the
presence of God.

2314
02:23:53,540 --> 02:23:57,380
How could he expect?
How could he expect to unless he

2315
02:23:57,380 --> 02:24:00,660
lived that law?
Brothers, snows eyes began to

2316
02:24:00,660 --> 02:24:03,260
open.
He took two wives and two and

2317
02:24:03,260 --> 02:24:05,420
still others.
President Taylor said that

2318
02:24:05,420 --> 02:24:08,500
plural marriage is the greatest
cross that men took upon

2319
02:24:08,500 --> 02:24:11,750
themselves since the days of
Adam, and so you people have

2320
02:24:11,750 --> 02:24:14,510
found that out.
We do not want you to bring your

2321
02:24:14,510 --> 02:24:18,150
troubles to us, but we want we
would to God that every man who

2322
02:24:18,150 --> 02:24:21,230
lives this principal had the
spirit of the Lord so that he

2323
02:24:21,230 --> 02:24:25,390
can live this principal right.
Yet it is almost inevitable that

2324
02:24:25,390 --> 02:24:27,190
some should come to the priest
of council.

2325
02:24:27,550 --> 02:24:30,390
I realize that, and it is the
reason that we are placed in

2326
02:24:30,390 --> 02:24:33,950
your midst, But we wish the
people would get strong and live

2327
02:24:33,950 --> 02:24:37,510
sufficiently close to the Lord
and receive His revelations.

2328
02:24:39,980 --> 02:24:44,380
There is not a man in the house
today who is not a prophet of

2329
02:24:44,380 --> 02:24:46,140
God.
If you are living properly

2330
02:24:46,460 --> 02:24:50,220
according to the principles of
God, let every man be a prophet

2331
02:24:50,220 --> 02:24:54,380
of God, and any man who is
honoring the priesthood and

2332
02:24:54,380 --> 02:24:59,100
magnifying it is a prophet.
The Holy Ghost is a spirit of

2333
02:24:59,100 --> 02:25:01,460
prophecy.
We want all of you, brethren and

2334
02:25:01,460 --> 02:25:05,180
sisters, to be prophets and
prophetesses, not to guide and

2335
02:25:05,180 --> 02:25:08,180
lead your husbands, but to guide
and lead yourselves.

2336
02:25:08,890 --> 02:25:11,770
The sister who is living with
the spirit of prophecy is living

2337
02:25:11,770 --> 02:25:14,010
the marital relation, as God
wants us to live it.

2338
02:25:14,690 --> 02:25:17,650
You sisters, will not quarrel
with your husbands if you have

2339
02:25:17,650 --> 02:25:20,770
that gift of prophecy, and we
can all live it if we live

2340
02:25:20,770 --> 02:25:22,690
according to the spirit of
prophecy.

2341
02:25:24,170 --> 02:25:25,770
So what's?
What's what?

2342
02:25:25,770 --> 02:25:28,530
An enlightened sermon.
Yeah, yeah.

2343
02:25:28,530 --> 02:25:35,650
And what's cool about this is
that you get the sense that that

2344
02:25:35,930 --> 02:25:39,630
muster's not.
So much worried about being the

2345
02:25:39,710 --> 02:25:43,950
prophet, but trying to get every
man to come up and every woman

2346
02:25:43,950 --> 02:25:47,470
to come up and be a prophet or a
prophetess.

2347
02:25:50,230 --> 02:25:55,310
And that's what Moses wanted.
You know, yeah, that's exactly

2348
02:25:55,310 --> 02:25:52,630
what Moses wanted.
It's.

2349
02:25:56,550 --> 02:26:00,110
And I would say this, if you go
back to early Joseph Smith, it's

2350
02:26:00,110 --> 02:26:04,790
what Joseph Smith wanted, right.
And so it it's very.

2351
02:26:06,150 --> 02:26:07,870
Yeah, it's it's in that same
vein.

2352
02:26:11,470 --> 02:26:16,510
It's it's so interesting.
You have that you have this and

2353
02:26:16,510 --> 02:26:18,750
it goes back to this a thing
that goes in cycles.

2354
02:26:18,750 --> 02:26:24,110
You have someone who wants to
empower or others and raise them

2355
02:26:24,110 --> 02:26:28,030
up to their level.
You know, you have a prophet who

2356
02:26:28,030 --> 02:26:33,400
wants to make other profits, and
then you have people who just

2357
02:26:33,400 --> 02:26:35,840
want to be told what to do and
not to think for themselves.

2358
02:26:35,840 --> 02:26:39,600
And you put that person on that
pedestal.

2359
02:26:39,600 --> 02:26:41,160
And you do that for enough
generations.

2360
02:26:41,440 --> 02:26:45,360
You get people who believe I'm
God's mouthpiece on earth and

2361
02:26:45,360 --> 02:26:50,840
what I say is law, right?
But it's not what it it started

2362
02:26:50,840 --> 02:26:52,760
out as it was.
I'm, you know, the prophet of

2363
02:26:52,760 --> 02:26:55,200
the Lord that wants to make
other prophets.

2364
02:26:55,560 --> 02:26:58,640
But the people choose not to go
along with the program.

2365
02:26:59,760 --> 02:27:00,880
Right.
Yeah, it's.

2366
02:27:01,580 --> 02:27:04,540
And you see that with Joseph
Smith, you see that here in this

2367
02:27:04,540 --> 02:27:07,820
time period.
It's it's interesting.

2368
02:27:08,500 --> 02:27:11,380
Yeah, it is.
Here's a fun little bit.

2369
02:27:12,020 --> 02:27:15,700
So we're good in April 1942, he
says.

2370
02:27:15,700 --> 02:27:18,620
I was thinking in reference to
the Council in heaven before

2371
02:27:18,620 --> 02:27:22,460
this earth was inhabited there.
There they entered into the

2372
02:27:22,460 --> 02:27:25,900
Covenant with themselves before
they came here, one being called

2373
02:27:25,900 --> 02:27:28,820
the Creator 1, the Mediator, and
the other the Witness

2374
02:27:28,820 --> 02:27:31,510
intestator.
All that was outlined before

2375
02:27:31,510 --> 02:27:33,430
this earth was formed and made
habitable.

2376
02:27:33,790 --> 02:27:36,630
It was over thousands of years
after the time that we that

2377
02:27:36,630 --> 02:27:40,710
these three characters met.
We we saw a presentation of this

2378
02:27:40,790 --> 02:27:44,030
in Sunday school, but Joseph
Smith knelt to pray.

2379
02:27:44,150 --> 02:27:47,470
Adam, the Creator came with
Jesus Christ, the Mediator, and

2380
02:27:47,470 --> 02:27:55,350
presented themselves to Joseph.
So you have all three members of

2381
02:27:55,350 --> 02:27:59,230
the Godhead represented there in
the First Vision, right in the

2382
02:27:59,350 --> 02:28:01,750
in the Sacred Grove.
Yeah, yeah.

2383
02:28:02,150 --> 02:28:09,510
And and that calls yeah, that
that puts a new spin for a lot

2384
02:28:09,510 --> 02:28:15,150
of folks on the the first Vision
because now you started signing

2385
02:28:15,270 --> 02:28:18,310
names.
Right now you started signing

2386
02:28:18,310 --> 02:28:23,110
names, you start getting a very
and and this was the genius.

2387
02:28:23,150 --> 02:28:27,390
I shouldn't say the genius.
This was what made.

2388
02:28:27,710 --> 02:28:31,070
The restored gospel so
revolutionary is now we're going

2389
02:28:31,070 --> 02:28:33,550
to take deity and we're going to
make them very personal.

2390
02:28:34,550 --> 02:28:38,230
Absolutely.
I don't know how he does this in

2391
02:28:38,230 --> 02:28:41,390
this sermon.
I mean, I I I kind of cut some

2392
02:28:41,390 --> 02:28:43,230
parts out because I was just
looking for snippets.

2393
02:28:43,750 --> 02:28:47,670
But he goes from talking about
the Godhead to making some funny

2394
02:28:47,670 --> 02:28:51,510
comments about coffee.
And he says sometimes people

2395
02:28:51,510 --> 02:28:54,430
apostatize because they see me
take a cup of coffee.

2396
02:28:55,190 --> 02:28:57,030
Am I the essence of Jesus
Christ?

2397
02:28:57,490 --> 02:28:59,050
No.
I am as human as you are.

2398
02:28:59,290 --> 02:29:01,730
If you apostatize, you are the
loser.

2399
02:29:02,090 --> 02:29:05,690
Find out for yourself, then grip
hold of them and stay with them

2400
02:29:06,010 --> 02:29:09,210
through thick and thin.
Do not believe what you hear

2401
02:29:09,210 --> 02:29:10,930
about your neighbor to dissuade
you from him.

2402
02:29:11,210 --> 02:29:13,250
That is your task.
That is your cross.

2403
02:29:17,410 --> 02:29:20,010
But isn't that the mark to talk
about what?

2404
02:29:20,450 --> 02:29:23,130
Isn't that the mark of of
profits?

2405
02:29:23,130 --> 02:29:25,600
So.
I mean, sometimes I think

2406
02:29:25,600 --> 02:29:28,880
because of our own mortal
follies or or our own

2407
02:29:29,520 --> 02:29:35,520
misconceptions, we think that a
prophet is constantly subdued,

2408
02:29:36,160 --> 02:29:40,680
not willing to show personality.
And that's not the case with

2409
02:29:40,680 --> 02:29:42,360
Joseph.
It's certainly not the case with

2410
02:29:42,360 --> 02:29:45,560
Brigham.
I would say any of the prophets,

2411
02:29:45,560 --> 02:29:50,880
they're still men.
And yeah, the fact he can switch

2412
02:29:50,880 --> 02:29:52,920
those gears I think shows
probably a.

2413
02:29:53,620 --> 02:29:56,940
Someone who's very comfortable
with their with their savior.

2414
02:29:58,460 --> 02:30:02,540
It's interesting that he's
talking about people losing

2415
02:30:03,380 --> 02:30:07,580
their testimony of the position
that he holds because they see

2416
02:30:07,580 --> 02:30:10,900
him drinking coffee.
They have such a puritanical

2417
02:30:10,900 --> 02:30:15,500
idea of the man that they think
he should be, you know, and they

2418
02:30:15,500 --> 02:30:18,940
lose a testimony over it.
But it also shows that it's

2419
02:30:18,940 --> 02:30:22,020
gotten back to him, right?
The people are gossiping and he

2420
02:30:22,020 --> 02:30:24,710
talks about that.
He says don't don't believe what

2421
02:30:24,710 --> 02:30:26,790
you hear about your neighbor.
And they talk about when I've

2422
02:30:26,790 --> 02:30:29,910
been going through the sermons
that's a major problem is the

2423
02:30:29,910 --> 02:30:34,790
gossip and talking bad about,
oh, this man's only got one

2424
02:30:34,790 --> 02:30:36,590
wife.
He's not living the principal or

2425
02:30:36,590 --> 02:30:40,190
this man has too many wives and
he's how could he possibly treat

2426
02:30:40,470 --> 02:30:43,430
his family?
Well, right and or you know

2427
02:30:43,430 --> 02:30:45,310
Brother Musser is drinking
coffee.

2428
02:30:45,310 --> 02:30:48,630
Right.
You know, like and it's can you

2429
02:30:48,630 --> 02:30:50,390
find something else to talk
about?

2430
02:30:51,630 --> 02:30:53,400
Right.
Yep, Nope, you're right.

2431
02:30:53,400 --> 02:30:56,560
Besides people.
In fact, there's a quote from

2432
02:30:56,560 --> 02:30:58,120
him on that again, too,
somewhere.

2433
02:30:58,120 --> 02:31:02,440
I wonder if I passed it.
I can find it on my computer

2434
02:31:02,440 --> 02:31:05,640
real quick, he says.
I asked in the meeting on

2435
02:31:05,640 --> 02:31:10,360
Tuesday, 30 days ago, to not
talk about one one another.

2436
02:31:10,880 --> 02:31:14,200
The pledge was not kept.
We thought we would talk it over

2437
02:31:14,200 --> 02:31:16,520
again.
In talking it, in taking it.

2438
02:31:16,760 --> 02:31:19,640
We were considering the scope of
intelligence that people may

2439
02:31:19,640 --> 02:31:22,900
have.
Tiny minds, average minds, and

2440
02:31:22,900 --> 02:31:26,020
great minds all are under three
general heads.

2441
02:31:26,820 --> 02:31:29,820
Small minds discuss people and
personalities.

2442
02:31:30,500 --> 02:31:33,940
Those are small little bits of
minds, some of them thimbles

2443
02:31:33,940 --> 02:31:37,140
that would fit a nap.
They cannot think of anything

2444
02:31:37,140 --> 02:31:38,540
but to talk about their
neighbors.

2445
02:31:39,220 --> 02:31:43,420
Average minds discuss events,
newspaper events, events that

2446
02:31:43,420 --> 02:31:47,300
are not particularly
instructive, sport, news,

2447
02:31:47,300 --> 02:31:50,740
parties, etcetera.
The Great Mind, the mind that

2448
02:31:50,740 --> 02:31:54,260
God has placed in the Spirit
bodies when they are born, is

2449
02:31:54,260 --> 02:31:57,740
the mind that confines itself to
principle, the principles of

2450
02:31:57,740 --> 02:32:00,820
salvation.
Brother Owen Allred spoke of

2451
02:32:00,820 --> 02:32:03,620
that today at the Cook Home when
they discussed the Gospel.

2452
02:32:03,620 --> 02:32:06,740
Those principles will take us
back into the presence of the

2453
02:32:06,740 --> 02:32:10,260
Eternal Father.
That's a pretty good statement,

2454
02:32:10,260 --> 02:32:13,860
isn't it?
Yeah, it is, Yeah.

2455
02:32:14,380 --> 02:32:19,510
Small Minds will discuss people,
and the intermediate minds will

2456
02:32:19,510 --> 02:32:23,510
discuss events, and great minds
will discuss principles.

2457
02:32:24,550 --> 02:32:32,270
Yeah, and and we all, look, we
all have have people we disagree

2458
02:32:32,270 --> 02:32:35,150
with that we go to church with,
you know, the whole, the whole

2459
02:32:35,150 --> 02:32:43,390
ball.
But we can't let that become a

2460
02:32:43,390 --> 02:32:50,020
wedge, because if we do.
Then sure, we we we've sold

2461
02:32:50,020 --> 02:32:52,500
someone else down the river.
We've sold ourselves down the

2462
02:32:52,500 --> 02:32:57,340
river and 99.9% of the time, we
don't know the story.

2463
02:32:59,500 --> 02:33:00,140
Sure.
No.

2464
02:33:00,140 --> 02:33:01,940
And yeah, it's the old Mormon
motto, right?

2465
02:33:01,940 --> 02:33:04,540
Is my It's mind your own
business, right?

2466
02:33:05,220 --> 02:33:09,740
Yep.
And and something we haven't

2467
02:33:09,740 --> 02:33:12,980
touched on yet is in priesthood
councils.

2468
02:33:13,100 --> 02:33:16,780
It was so important that they
would swear the Brethren to

2469
02:33:16,780 --> 02:33:19,940
something that they called the
Oath of Brotherhood, and it was

2470
02:33:20,100 --> 02:33:22,700
basically, in essence, it was
that you, they were sworn.

2471
02:33:22,700 --> 02:33:24,300
They would swear to each other.
They would.

2472
02:33:24,300 --> 02:33:28,180
They would not believe any
derogatory report that someone

2473
02:33:28,580 --> 02:33:33,300
made against another one of them
until they could go to see you

2474
02:33:33,300 --> 02:33:35,100
face to face and have it
confirmed.

2475
02:33:35,620 --> 02:33:37,740
Yeah, right.
Because they.

2476
02:33:37,980 --> 02:33:40,740
Because you believe, and you
state that you believe that

2477
02:33:40,780 --> 02:33:45,240
everyone that you're covenanting
with has the integrity, you know

2478
02:33:45,920 --> 02:33:48,120
that they wouldn't do such a
thing.

2479
02:33:49,280 --> 02:33:55,160
Yep.
No, and maybe we should bring

2480
02:33:55,160 --> 02:33:56,960
that back.
That doesn't seem like such a

2481
02:33:57,040 --> 02:34:00,200
bad idea.
It's it's it's vital.

2482
02:34:01,320 --> 02:34:05,720
I think it's a I think it's a
very miss miss.

2483
02:34:05,800 --> 02:34:08,160
It's not applied.
You know it's it's it's a very

2484
02:34:09,680 --> 02:34:11,400
much lacking.
We need it.

2485
02:34:11,400 --> 02:34:13,040
We absolutely need it.
Yep.

2486
02:34:13,880 --> 02:34:17,240
Let's see.
So here's another the time when

2487
02:34:17,240 --> 02:34:20,880
Joseph Musser is kind of talking
about that trial that we talked

2488
02:34:20,880 --> 02:34:25,680
about last time on March 14th,
1943, he says Now, brothers and

2489
02:34:25,680 --> 02:34:27,640
sisters, this is the Lord's work
we are in.

2490
02:34:27,720 --> 02:34:31,760
It is up to us if we want the
promises we get fulfilled.

2491
02:34:31,760 --> 02:34:34,000
It is up to us to bring them
about and see that they are

2492
02:34:34,000 --> 02:34:36,240
fulfilled.
If we would only get the Spirit

2493
02:34:36,240 --> 02:34:39,120
of the Lord to lead us and guide
us and not make up our minds

2494
02:34:39,120 --> 02:34:41,840
what to do, I then come to the
council for advice.

2495
02:34:41,920 --> 02:34:43,280
All right.
I love that first stop.

2496
02:34:43,280 --> 02:34:46,680
I got to stop right there
because you got people going to

2497
02:34:46,680 --> 02:34:48,720
the authorities.
You've already made-up your

2498
02:34:48,720 --> 02:34:49,920
mind.
I've seen this, by the way.

2499
02:34:49,920 --> 02:34:54,400
I've seen this exact thing
happened where I know someone's

2500
02:34:54,400 --> 02:34:56,040
already made-up their mind what
they're going to do, and then

2501
02:34:56,040 --> 02:34:59,840
they go and Duke it out with
their priest and file leader

2502
02:35:00,840 --> 02:35:03,880
over just no one.
But they want, they want to be

2503
02:35:03,880 --> 02:35:05,850
validated.
Yeah.

2504
02:35:05,850 --> 02:35:08,770
In in a choice and sometimes you
just can't do that.

2505
02:35:08,770 --> 02:35:12,970
But I've seen it and it's.
I can understand why that would

2506
02:35:13,250 --> 02:35:15,570
be frustrating.
If you're if you've been called

2507
02:35:15,570 --> 02:35:19,170
to be to serve, called to serve
in a leadership position, I

2508
02:35:19,170 --> 02:35:21,650
could see how that would be
frustrating, yeah.

2509
02:35:21,850 --> 02:35:25,730
Because instead worrying about
the important things you're now

2510
02:35:25,730 --> 02:35:32,850
trying to sort out, some BS that
that someone's, you know,

2511
02:35:32,850 --> 02:35:38,320
irritated about, well, you're
you're now having a dog fight

2512
02:35:38,320 --> 02:35:40,920
with someone who's unreasonable
because they've already made-up

2513
02:35:40,920 --> 02:35:42,200
their minds.
It's like, why are you wasting

2514
02:35:42,200 --> 02:35:43,440
my time?
You already know what you're

2515
02:35:43,440 --> 02:35:46,920
going to do is go do it.
Yeah, go do it.

2516
02:35:47,520 --> 02:35:50,720
Yeah, it's the same.
It's whether it's right or

2517
02:35:50,720 --> 02:35:52,280
wrong.
I'm just going to do it anyways.

2518
02:35:52,680 --> 02:35:56,720
If if you are that sold on the
idea, then don't even ask my

2519
02:35:56,720 --> 02:35:58,200
opinion, right?
Don't.

2520
02:35:58,200 --> 02:36:01,480
Don't even don't even bother
filling me in.

2521
02:36:01,480 --> 02:36:04,280
I don't need to know you go, do
you, bro?

2522
02:36:05,900 --> 02:36:08,260
Yep.
So if we would only get the

2523
02:36:08,260 --> 02:36:11,060
spirit of the Lord to lead us
and guide us and not make up our

2524
02:36:11,060 --> 02:36:14,140
minds what to do, and then come
to the council for advice.

2525
02:36:14,580 --> 02:36:16,660
That is what a lot of the people
now.

2526
02:36:17,940 --> 02:36:22,500
That is what a lot of of the
people not want to have to feel

2527
02:36:22,500 --> 02:36:24,460
that they have to come to the
priest, the council of the

2528
02:36:24,460 --> 02:36:26,460
priesthood for every little
direction in their life.

2529
02:36:26,860 --> 02:36:30,140
We are supposed to go to the
Lord when we go for council.

2530
02:36:30,140 --> 02:36:33,020
We should receive it.
So there you go.

2531
02:36:33,340 --> 02:36:35,380
If you're going for council, you
should receive it.

2532
02:36:35,500 --> 02:36:38,740
Be be very careful about going
for council unless you are ready

2533
02:36:38,740 --> 02:36:40,940
for it.
But when you go to the servant

2534
02:36:40,940 --> 02:36:44,980
of the Lord and ask for counsel,
that presupposes that you will

2535
02:36:44,980 --> 02:36:48,780
carry it out if it takes a leg.
If you're not going to receive

2536
02:36:48,780 --> 02:36:52,220
the right kind of counsel before
asking for it, then do not ask

2537
02:36:52,220 --> 02:36:55,100
for it.
I got my counsel from the

2538
02:36:55,100 --> 02:36:57,620
revelation of the Lord Jesus
Christ with reference to the

2539
02:36:57,620 --> 02:37:01,140
principle of plural marriage.
I knew that someday I would have

2540
02:37:01,140 --> 02:37:04,070
to enter into it.
One day the word came to me that

2541
02:37:04,070 --> 02:37:07,470
this was the time to go into it.
That word came and I did not

2542
02:37:07,470 --> 02:37:09,670
have to go to Brother Lyman, as
I was told to do.

2543
02:37:10,150 --> 02:37:13,230
They tried to get me to enter
into covenants with them.

2544
02:37:14,230 --> 02:37:16,510
I was sad at heart, for I love
those brethren.

2545
02:37:16,750 --> 02:37:19,550
I told them that I could not
take their counsel because they

2546
02:37:19,550 --> 02:37:21,270
were not the ones presiding over
me.

2547
02:37:21,990 --> 02:37:24,150
I have not a wife that has
presided over me.

2548
02:37:24,150 --> 02:37:27,710
If they did, they would hate me.
I have the best set of wives on

2549
02:37:27,710 --> 02:37:29,510
earth.
I will match with any of you.

2550
02:37:30,190 --> 02:37:32,880
There's some good stuff there,
he goes on.

2551
02:37:33,120 --> 02:37:36,040
And he says what?
What's up?

2552
02:37:36,040 --> 02:37:37,520
Just.
Just paying a little bit of

2553
02:37:37,520 --> 02:37:39,640
homageer to his wives too, which
I dig.

2554
02:37:40,440 --> 02:37:43,240
Oh yeah, I love it too.
He goes on and says God

2555
02:37:43,240 --> 02:37:45,960
established the principle of
plural and celestial marriage

2556
02:37:45,960 --> 02:37:49,880
because he was forced to do it.
It is a law of the eternities.

2557
02:37:50,280 --> 02:37:53,840
It is a law that people must
live, that God had to live

2558
02:37:53,960 --> 02:37:58,320
before he could become a God.
It is just as essential to the

2559
02:37:58,320 --> 02:38:01,320
progress of the Saints as water
is to the human body.

2560
02:38:02,580 --> 02:38:04,940
That is why God revealed it in
this dispensation.

2561
02:38:06,540 --> 02:38:09,500
He could not give all things
without restoring that law.

2562
02:38:10,740 --> 02:38:13,380
If you do not believe that it
was lived before we ever came

2563
02:38:13,380 --> 02:38:16,900
here, the law was established
before the foundations of the

2564
02:38:16,900 --> 02:38:21,380
earth were laid, then to have an
apostle claim that it is not

2565
02:38:21,380 --> 02:38:26,860
necessary is hypocrisy.
Every latterday St. is commanded

2566
02:38:26,860 --> 02:38:30,340
to go into it.
That command is the Everlast is

2567
02:38:30,540 --> 02:38:33,180
is as the Everlasting Hills.
Heber J.

2568
02:38:33,180 --> 02:38:36,180
Grant made a statement a few
months ago that that law had not

2569
02:38:36,180 --> 02:38:40,220
been taken away.
Now, no, the Lord has never

2570
02:38:40,220 --> 02:38:43,540
taken that law away, but those
people were corrupt, wicked

2571
02:38:43,540 --> 02:38:45,700
people who are dragging it into
the ground.

2572
02:38:46,740 --> 02:38:51,620
I think he's talking about Jake,
the book of Jacob, referring to

2573
02:38:51,620 --> 02:38:53,340
the when that was taken away
there.

2574
02:38:53,860 --> 02:38:56,860
The law was established before
Father Adam came here to this

2575
02:38:56,860 --> 02:38:58,720
earth.
He brought Eve, one of his

2576
02:38:58,720 --> 02:39:02,680
wives, with him, and he brought
another Eve and another Eve with

2577
02:39:02,680 --> 02:39:04,720
him.
It is a law of the gospel.

2578
02:39:04,840 --> 02:39:08,120
It is just as necessary to live
that law if we want to live as

2579
02:39:08,120 --> 02:39:11,320
it is necessary to eat.
You cannot go into the presence

2580
02:39:11,320 --> 02:39:12,880
of father until you live that
law.

2581
02:39:13,360 --> 02:39:16,960
It is a law that sent my father
and many of your father's to

2582
02:39:16,960 --> 02:39:19,600
jail.
It is a law of the gods.

2583
02:39:19,920 --> 02:39:23,000
When the time came for me to
enter into that law, I knew I

2584
02:39:23,000 --> 02:39:25,800
had to do it.
I did it and I am carrying on

2585
02:39:25,800 --> 02:39:29,960
now and there are people trying
to find out my family affairs in

2586
02:39:29,960 --> 02:39:32,600
order to get me entangled in the
tongues of the law.

2587
02:39:34,320 --> 02:39:37,680
Again, spoiler he does.
He does go to jail, just like

2588
02:39:37,800 --> 02:39:41,680
his father did.
Yep, I Yeah, well, and he's

2589
02:39:41,680 --> 02:39:45,080
putting down to bed now this
idea that it's not an essential

2590
02:39:45,080 --> 02:39:49,000
law, right.
He's, he's he's taking it to

2591
02:39:49,000 --> 02:39:52,560
task and also taking Hebrew
task.

2592
02:39:53,120 --> 02:39:56,720
Oh yeah.
And yeah, it's showing what

2593
02:39:56,720 --> 02:39:59,600
you're saying there, like that
hypocrisy of going from it's

2594
02:39:59,600 --> 02:40:05,240
essential to well, well,
celestial marriage is just

2595
02:40:05,240 --> 02:40:07,320
eternal marriage.
So as long as you're sealed by

2596
02:40:07,920 --> 02:40:14,760
the priest in the in a contract
that states that it's endless

2597
02:40:14,920 --> 02:40:18,320
and never ending and that's
that's celestial marriage

2598
02:40:18,320 --> 02:40:19,560
because it's an eternal
marriage.

2599
02:40:21,280 --> 02:40:23,520
And it's part of it.
Don't get me wrong, you still

2600
02:40:23,520 --> 02:40:25,680
need that.
But you it's only entering it

2601
02:40:25,680 --> 02:40:29,880
into the law by part.
Partly, you know, and you can't.

2602
02:40:30,120 --> 02:40:33,520
You need to when you're I don't
know if I should say this.

2603
02:40:33,520 --> 02:40:34,440
I'm going to say it anyway
though.

2604
02:40:34,640 --> 02:40:38,080
When you receive that ceiling,
your first ceiling, what does it

2605
02:40:38,080 --> 02:40:40,400
say?
That you will enter into and

2606
02:40:40,400 --> 02:40:46,160
obey all laws.
Yep, pertaining to the whole If

2607
02:40:46,160 --> 02:40:49,360
you've been sealed once, you've
already made the promise that

2608
02:40:49,360 --> 02:40:50,880
you're going to live plural
marriage.

2609
02:40:51,880 --> 02:40:54,520
Yep.
And if you don't, you are, by

2610
02:40:54,520 --> 02:40:57,440
default, covenant Breakers.
Yep, I'll say that right now.

2611
02:40:57,640 --> 02:41:02,840
If you've been sealed by the
authority of the priesthood and

2612
02:41:02,840 --> 02:41:04,360
you have not entered in the
principal, or if you're

2613
02:41:04,360 --> 02:41:06,880
preventing your husband from
entering into the principal, you

2614
02:41:06,880 --> 02:41:08,280
are a covenant breaker by
default.

2615
02:41:08,680 --> 02:41:12,040
Now I I think there's got to be
some leeway here given to

2616
02:41:12,920 --> 02:41:17,520
finding your family right?
I I I'm not a fan of just going

2617
02:41:17,520 --> 02:41:21,080
out there and.
You you want to make sure you do

2618
02:41:21,080 --> 02:41:24,720
it the right way, right?
I I don't want anyone out there

2619
02:41:24,720 --> 02:41:27,200
going, oh crap.
You know, we're we're we're not

2620
02:41:27,200 --> 02:41:29,400
polygamist.
We better go find somebody,

2621
02:41:29,400 --> 02:41:32,400
anybody right now, right.
That's not what I'm saying.

2622
02:41:32,400 --> 02:41:35,840
Sometimes you'll never find the
the right people for it.

2623
02:41:36,560 --> 02:41:40,400
But I think you have to get your
heart ready to do it so that

2624
02:41:40,400 --> 02:41:44,080
when that time comes, you don't
have to make that decision in

2625
02:41:44,080 --> 02:41:46,120
the moment.
You need to be willing.

2626
02:41:47,080 --> 02:41:50,160
Yep, And the Lord will lead it
to you when you are willing.

2627
02:41:50,280 --> 02:41:52,840
But you will be damned if you,
if you do, are not willing to

2628
02:41:52,840 --> 02:41:55,840
obey those laws exactly because
you've been placed under

2629
02:41:55,920 --> 02:41:58,800
covenant that you should.
It's that surrendering of the

2630
02:41:58,800 --> 02:42:02,200
will thing, right?
If you if you've surrendered

2631
02:42:02,200 --> 02:42:08,400
your will, you're good.
But understand that, and that

2632
02:42:08,400 --> 02:42:11,240
surrendering of the will, if the
opportunity presents itself,

2633
02:42:11,520 --> 02:42:14,760
you're kind of on the hook,
right?

2634
02:42:14,760 --> 02:42:18,160
Let's let's not say that you're
not so sure.

2635
02:42:18,600 --> 02:42:20,920
Sure.
No, I absolutely agree.

2636
02:42:20,920 --> 02:42:24,760
And surrendering, submitting
your will is not the same thing

2637
02:42:24,760 --> 02:42:27,120
as surrendering your agency.
And I want to make that very

2638
02:42:27,120 --> 02:42:30,000
clear.
And you can have we.

2639
02:42:30,000 --> 02:42:35,040
We've had abuse in in Mormon
fundamentalist groups where a

2640
02:42:35,080 --> 02:42:39,640
person who is esteemed as a
prophet has said you, you

2641
02:42:39,640 --> 02:42:43,120
person, you person over here,
you you got to get tie the knot.

2642
02:42:43,200 --> 02:42:44,440
You're you're married now,
right?

2643
02:42:45,080 --> 02:42:48,780
And that's hard.
That's a really hard one.

2644
02:42:49,260 --> 02:42:53,980
And I understand and I'm
grateful that I understand at a

2645
02:42:53,980 --> 02:42:56,940
young point in my life that
marriage is what you're going to

2646
02:42:56,940 --> 02:42:58,460
make it.
If you want to make it a good

2647
02:42:58,460 --> 02:43:01,180
one.
It's going to be a good one no

2648
02:43:01,180 --> 02:43:04,620
matter what.
But and it is about the work and

2649
02:43:04,620 --> 02:43:06,700
it's not about just marrying for
puppy love, right?

2650
02:43:08,140 --> 02:43:14,470
But it's it's it can be abused
to to have an authority figure

2651
02:43:14,470 --> 02:43:16,110
tell you look you need to do
this right now.

2652
02:43:16,350 --> 02:43:20,470
But also it can come by
revelation and you had that.

2653
02:43:20,750 --> 02:43:24,070
You had Joseph Musser for
example, right where he's being

2654
02:43:24,070 --> 02:43:26,270
told to enter into that law and
the stars.

2655
02:43:26,270 --> 02:43:31,950
Literally a line where he is
talking to his future

2656
02:43:31,950 --> 02:43:34,670
fatherinlaw.
Fatherinlaw leaves the house cuz

2657
02:43:34,670 --> 02:43:37,390
he's upset cuz it's post
manifesto times.

2658
02:43:37,710 --> 02:43:41,120
This guy just proposed, you
know, and asked about my

2659
02:43:41,120 --> 02:43:42,680
daughter, basically, and I can't
do it.

2660
02:43:42,680 --> 02:43:45,000
And who does he meet out on the
street when he's walking around

2661
02:43:45,000 --> 02:43:48,160
besides the apostle that is
pushing Joseph Musser?

2662
02:43:48,160 --> 02:43:51,080
To get rid again, right?
You just can't make that up.

2663
02:43:52,200 --> 02:43:54,840
And I'm not saying that you need
to have the stars align that

2664
02:43:54,840 --> 02:43:59,000
much either to have to to go
forward, but you need to be

2665
02:43:59,000 --> 02:44:00,040
willing to.
Yep.

2666
02:44:02,680 --> 02:44:08,400
And how else could you, if the
reason celestial marriage is

2667
02:44:10,080 --> 02:44:12,960
called the Most Holy principle
is because it takes all the

2668
02:44:12,960 --> 02:44:15,720
other principles of the gospel
to live it, and so it's

2669
02:44:15,720 --> 02:44:19,400
calculated to exalt you because
it's either going to make or

2670
02:44:19,400 --> 02:44:20,560
break you.
Yep.

2671
02:44:20,960 --> 02:44:23,440
And put if that's so my it's my
understanding.

2672
02:44:23,440 --> 02:44:27,640
And so it's it's it's a social
technology that God uses to

2673
02:44:27,640 --> 02:44:32,680
purify the poison out of your
heart and get you to be

2674
02:44:32,680 --> 02:44:37,200
celestial spiritual material.
Yep, Yep, absolutely.

2675
02:44:38,520 --> 02:44:43,120
No, it I'm scared of.
I'm scared.

2676
02:44:45,000 --> 02:44:46,800
Don't Don't be scared.
Don't be.

2677
02:44:46,800 --> 02:44:48,080
That's going to be a tough one
for.

2678
02:44:48,360 --> 02:44:51,240
Don't don't be scared.
Don't, don't don't be scared.

2679
02:44:51,760 --> 02:44:58,760
It it's an adjustment.
But just like with all things,

2680
02:44:58,760 --> 02:45:03,160
we whenever we're always scared
to enter into additional

2681
02:45:03,160 --> 02:45:07,440
responsibility that the Lord
places before us, right?

2682
02:45:08,110 --> 02:45:10,910
But there's joy in it.
There's blessings to be had

2683
02:45:10,910 --> 02:45:12,950
there.
I do have a testimony of that.

2684
02:45:12,950 --> 02:45:14,590
I don't think the Lord has ever
revealed it.

2685
02:45:14,710 --> 02:45:17,830
Any single principle or law that
is not calculated to make you

2686
02:45:17,830 --> 02:45:19,950
happy, right.
If you're living it correctly,

2687
02:45:20,270 --> 02:45:21,870
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

2688
02:45:23,070 --> 02:45:26,350
All right, so now we're getting
into the raid, the 1944 raid.

2689
02:45:26,790 --> 02:45:31,630
So sometime in March, the FBI
and police conducted a raid.

2690
02:45:31,630 --> 02:45:36,110
We broke into like 30 or 40
different men's houses and like

2691
02:45:36,510 --> 02:45:38,950
4:00 to 6:00 in the morning.
Joseph Muster was arrested in

2692
02:45:38,950 --> 02:45:46,590
his bathrobe at like 6:00 AM by
the time they were dealing with

2693
02:45:46,670 --> 02:45:49,870
their legal battles.
After that they got out of the

2694
02:45:49,870 --> 02:45:52,190
county jails or whatever.
There was another raid in

2695
02:45:52,190 --> 02:45:58,670
October 6th, 1944 and 31 people
were convicted the the

2696
02:45:58,670 --> 02:46:03,550
prosecution apparently.
So during this the defense was

2697
02:46:03,550 --> 02:46:07,870
kind of insinuating that the
church had supplied the

2698
02:46:07,870 --> 02:46:09,790
prosecution with all this
evidence.

2699
02:46:10,550 --> 02:46:12,310
Right.
And and all the like, where do

2700
02:46:12,310 --> 02:46:13,870
you find these people, right,
Like they gave them the

2701
02:46:13,870 --> 02:46:18,230
addresses and the the license
plates for the cars to, you know

2702
02:46:18,230 --> 02:46:20,110
to track them down and know
where they were going.

2703
02:46:20,110 --> 02:46:23,070
And basically in the
prosecution's like we resent the

2704
02:46:23,070 --> 02:46:25,790
fact that you guys are saying
that the LDS Church helped us

2705
02:46:25,790 --> 02:46:31,630
accumulate this evidence.
And then as soon as the as soon

2706
02:46:31,630 --> 02:46:34,870
as the case was closed, Apostle
Markey Peterson of the Quorum of

2707
02:46:34,870 --> 02:46:38,550
the 12 gave a statement to the
United Press which announced

2708
02:46:38,550 --> 02:46:41,910
that the church had actually
assisted in furnishing evidence

2709
02:46:41,910 --> 02:46:45,390
against the defendants and had
appointed men to get a testimony

2710
02:46:45,390 --> 02:46:48,470
to be used in the case and to do
all that they can to fight

2711
02:46:48,470 --> 02:46:52,630
against the spread of polygamy.
Markey Mark E Peterson said,

2712
02:46:52,630 --> 02:46:56,750
quote for the fundamental
doctrines of the church are now

2713
02:46:56,750 --> 02:46:58,710
opposed to polygamy.
End Quote.

2714
02:47:00,080 --> 02:47:04,440
I think Marky Peterson told you
what the church had become in

2715
02:47:04,440 --> 02:47:08,160
that very moment.
In that very moment, he summed

2716
02:47:08,160 --> 02:47:10,440
it up.
Now let me say this.

2717
02:47:12,160 --> 02:47:16,800
What happened down in Colorado
City under Warren Jeffs was his

2718
02:47:16,800 --> 02:47:19,040
fault?
Yeah, absolutely.

2719
02:47:20,480 --> 02:47:26,760
But it was the LDS Church, the
government of Arizona and Utah.

2720
02:47:27,710 --> 02:47:30,070
That created the condition that
created the situation.

2721
02:47:30,590 --> 02:47:34,710
That created the conditions
where with a tyrant could could

2722
02:47:34,710 --> 02:47:39,550
take power and take control.
They did that by forcing a

2723
02:47:39,550 --> 02:47:42,910
people into the shadows.
And when you force people into

2724
02:47:42,910 --> 02:47:48,430
the shadows, it sets them up to
be able to have a dictator and a

2725
02:47:48,430 --> 02:47:52,630
tyrant come in and say, see, I
told you, they're out to get

2726
02:47:52,630 --> 02:47:54,750
you.
Now you listen to me and I'm

2727
02:47:54,750 --> 02:47:56,870
going to keep you safe.
So.

2728
02:47:57,790 --> 02:48:02,070
And and I want to be very clear
on this fact and I understand

2729
02:48:02,070 --> 02:48:05,670
that there's going to be people
who are mad at me, who who are

2730
02:48:05,670 --> 02:48:09,910
my friends, and I apologize that
you're going to feel this way,

2731
02:48:10,750 --> 02:48:14,150
but the LDS Church and the
government of Arizona and the

2732
02:48:14,150 --> 02:48:20,350
government of Utah has a
portion, not all, a portion of

2733
02:48:20,350 --> 02:48:23,030
the same blood on their hands
that Warren Jeffs does.

2734
02:48:23,870 --> 02:48:30,850
They set the table.
They sure did and so on that on

2735
02:48:30,850 --> 02:48:34,250
that note regarding that that
raid in October that we just

2736
02:48:34,250 --> 02:48:38,530
talked about, Joseph Muster in
one of his sermons says since we

2737
02:48:38,530 --> 02:48:43,450
were with you last, some of us
have been promoted again, we are

2738
02:48:43,450 --> 02:48:46,890
rather pleased to have with us
some of the sisters at this time

2739
02:48:47,290 --> 02:48:50,610
and they sent fifteen of us to
jail for unlawful cohabitation.

2740
02:48:50,970 --> 02:48:54,690
But think the matter, but but
think the matter over being

2741
02:48:54,690 --> 02:48:57,590
advised by the scriptures.
The man should not be alone.

2742
02:48:57,830 --> 02:49:00,390
And this time we have some of
the reason with us that man is

2743
02:49:00,390 --> 02:49:03,510
not alone without the woman and
the woman is not without the

2744
02:49:03,510 --> 02:49:06,230
man.
Meaning that they they were

2745
02:49:06,230 --> 02:49:09,030
throwing the the women in jail
too and he was really lied about

2746
02:49:09,030 --> 02:49:14,910
it, you know, you know, and but
at least they're following the

2747
02:49:14,910 --> 02:49:16,790
scriptures right, getting us and
them together.

2748
02:49:16,790 --> 02:49:21,470
But, he says, we feel very
gratefully honored in standing

2749
02:49:21,470 --> 02:49:25,350
as a witness in the work of the
Lord in this day and age.

2750
02:49:25,830 --> 02:49:29,270
But not only the world, but the
Church has apostatized.

2751
02:49:34,070 --> 02:49:35,350
I like it.
He called them out.

2752
02:49:37,030 --> 02:49:42,070
He did, he did.
And so they go to jail like 15

2753
02:49:42,310 --> 02:49:45,670
of the leading men, most of the
priest of council, in fact.

2754
02:49:46,230 --> 02:49:49,270
So they had to ordain more
apostles because most of the

2755
02:49:49,270 --> 02:49:50,830
priest of council was going to
jail.

2756
02:49:51,030 --> 02:49:55,280
And so they end up ordaining Guy
Musser, which is which is

2757
02:49:55,400 --> 02:50:02,720
Joseph's son and Rulan Jeffs as
apostles while they are, while

2758
02:50:02,720 --> 02:50:06,400
the rest of the brethren are
pretty much sent to jail and it

2759
02:50:06,400 --> 02:50:09,880
says in his journal Joseph
Musser's Journal, April 12th,

2760
02:50:09,880 --> 02:50:15,680
1945, He writes gave my son Guy
a blessing pertaining to the

2761
02:50:15,680 --> 02:50:20,200
higher order of the priesthood.
Now, I don't know enough to say

2762
02:50:20,200 --> 02:50:24,660
for sure.
I know that that's the same date

2763
02:50:24,660 --> 02:50:28,900
he was ordained an apostle, but
that's not what it says in his

2764
02:50:28,900 --> 02:50:32,980
journal, because I gave my son
Guy a blessing pertaining to the

2765
02:50:32,980 --> 02:50:36,940
highest order of the priesthood.
To me that sounds like ordinance

2766
02:50:36,940 --> 02:50:38,740
work, and it sounds like a
second anointing.

2767
02:50:38,980 --> 02:50:42,420
I couldn't prove it.
I've never heard anything about

2768
02:50:42,420 --> 02:50:45,300
Guy Maz or having that ordinance
received.

2769
02:50:45,540 --> 02:50:48,860
But why would you?
You're usually told not to tell

2770
02:50:48,860 --> 02:50:50,460
anyone about it.
Usually.

2771
02:50:50,460 --> 02:50:52,940
You know, I don't.
I wouldn't have a problem with

2772
02:50:53,700 --> 02:50:57,700
that as much as others.
But it's interesting.

2773
02:50:57,820 --> 02:50:59,980
It's an interesting footnote I
wanted to throw out there to

2774
02:50:59,980 --> 02:51:03,260
people, you know, who are
knowledgeable about these

2775
02:51:03,260 --> 02:51:07,460
people.
So that was done on April 12th,

2776
02:51:07,460 --> 02:51:10,900
1945, when he received that
blessing on.

2777
02:51:10,980 --> 02:51:14,540
By May, those brethren were
thrown into the Utah State

2778
02:51:14,540 --> 02:51:19,240
Penitentiary.
Joseph Musser was age 73, making

2779
02:51:19,240 --> 02:51:21,880
him the oldest person ever in
prison for plural marriage.

2780
02:51:22,000 --> 02:51:30,040
At that point, he received a
revelation basically saying that

2781
02:51:30,040 --> 02:51:33,440
they could make a promise or
sign a document that got them

2782
02:51:33,440 --> 02:51:35,120
out early.
They had a fiveyear term.

2783
02:51:35,120 --> 02:51:38,120
They got out by the end of the
year and they basically were put

2784
02:51:38,120 --> 02:51:41,840
on a parole type of thing where
they wouldn't leave the state of

2785
02:51:41,840 --> 02:51:47,300
Utah or whatever and or and and
they would not teach or

2786
02:51:47,300 --> 02:51:49,500
encourage people to live in
polygamy.

2787
02:51:50,140 --> 02:51:52,740
And they kind of got around that
by saying, well, we're not

2788
02:51:52,740 --> 02:51:55,020
teaching polygamy, we're
teaching celestial plural

2789
02:51:55,020 --> 02:51:56,340
marriage.
And it's a difference.

2790
02:51:56,860 --> 02:51:59,740
Right.
No, there is, yeah, And there

2791
02:51:59,740 --> 02:52:01,220
is.
There absolutely is a big

2792
02:52:01,220 --> 02:52:04,940
difference.
And we're getting to a point in

2793
02:52:04,940 --> 02:52:10,980
time towards the end of his life
here where things get tricky.

2794
02:52:11,780 --> 02:52:16,900
And it's in 1949, like December
31st, I think.

2795
02:52:16,900 --> 02:52:20,220
I think it was new, like the New
Year's Eve that year.

2796
02:52:20,220 --> 02:52:25,460
John White Barlow dies, which
leaves Joseph Musser, has the

2797
02:52:25,460 --> 02:52:26,660
head of the priesthood in the
group.

2798
02:52:28,900 --> 02:52:34,180
Now there's kind of a problem
because previous to John White

2799
02:52:34,180 --> 02:52:40,760
Barlow dying, Joseph Musser had
a stroke and that has health

2800
02:52:40,760 --> 02:52:41,400
issues.
Yeah.

2801
02:52:41,400 --> 02:52:44,080
Brings health issues and and
capability issues.

2802
02:52:45,280 --> 02:52:49,040
Right.
And so some people and I

2803
02:52:49,040 --> 02:52:53,400
couldn't tell you how many, you
know basically delegated a lot

2804
02:52:53,400 --> 02:52:57,480
of the work to his son Guy and
guy was basically or people

2805
02:52:57,520 --> 02:53:01,520
people on the council were
saying don't bother Joseph with

2806
02:53:01,520 --> 02:53:04,160
anything.
If you need to go through his

2807
02:53:04,160 --> 02:53:07,240
son Guy muster to to handle it.
Right.

2808
02:53:07,600 --> 02:53:09,380
And I can get that.
I can.

2809
02:53:09,380 --> 02:53:12,060
I can understand that you don't
want to be wearying someone

2810
02:53:12,060 --> 02:53:18,860
who's who's what would he be at
that .77 years old, you know and

2811
02:53:18,860 --> 02:53:20,500
who's just had a stroke.
I can get that.

2812
02:53:23,300 --> 02:53:26,740
It looks like he eventually
starts recovering though and So

2813
02:53:26,740 --> 02:53:31,460
what.
But one of the issues is ruling

2814
02:53:31,460 --> 02:53:35,820
Allred had been appointed to a
calling by John White Barlow

2815
02:53:35,820 --> 02:53:38,870
before John White Barlow died,
and John.

2816
02:53:39,070 --> 02:53:44,350
And when John Y Barlow died,
Roulin Allred went to Joseph

2817
02:53:44,350 --> 02:53:48,830
Musser and asked, well, I had
the, you know, this Commission

2818
02:53:49,710 --> 02:53:55,910
from John Y do I have it still?
And so this is the way that it

2819
02:53:55,910 --> 02:53:58,270
gets recounted, at least from
the Allred Group perspective of

2820
02:53:58,270 --> 02:54:00,270
the split that happens in the
1950s.

2821
02:54:02,110 --> 02:54:04,430
Back in the days when John Y
Barlow was president of the

2822
02:54:04,430 --> 02:54:08,690
Priesthood, Roulin Allred was
ordained by John Y to preside

2823
02:54:08,690 --> 02:54:12,970
over the Mexican Saints.
Without the direct leadership of

2824
02:54:12,970 --> 02:54:16,170
the priest of council, he was
given the leeway to act in

2825
02:54:16,170 --> 02:54:19,690
whatever way he saw fit where it
concerned that people when John

2826
02:54:19,770 --> 02:54:23,250
Y Barlow died, the question
arose in Roland's mind as to

2827
02:54:23,250 --> 02:54:25,610
whether or not that that calling
died.

2828
02:54:25,610 --> 02:54:29,250
With John Y Barlow he approached
Marion Hammond of the Colorado

2829
02:54:29,250 --> 02:54:32,050
City Council and asked him, and
Hammond told him that the

2830
02:54:32,050 --> 02:54:35,480
calling died of John Y.
Ruin wasn't satisfied with that

2831
02:54:35,480 --> 02:54:37,080
answer.
So we went to Joseph Musser.

2832
02:54:37,600 --> 02:54:40,240
Joseph Musser told him that the
calling didn't die with did not

2833
02:54:40,240 --> 02:54:41,040
die with John.
Why?

2834
02:54:41,360 --> 02:54:44,440
In fact Muster told him you
don't realize what he gave you

2835
02:54:44,440 --> 02:54:47,560
with that calling.
He practically made you his

2836
02:54:47,560 --> 02:54:50,600
counselor and Ruin was surprised
by this.

2837
02:54:50,600 --> 02:54:53,760
But he he was even more
surprised as the as more

2838
02:54:53,760 --> 02:54:55,320
understanding came to Brother
Musser.

2839
02:54:55,480 --> 02:54:58,920
Of course, said Brother Musser.
I can see it all now.

2840
02:54:58,920 --> 02:55:00,480
How could I have not seen it
before?

2841
02:55:01,520 --> 02:55:07,760
And he sat down, Ruin Allred.
And yeah, I was going to ordain

2842
02:55:07,760 --> 02:55:10,600
him.
And ruling Allred said, You

2843
02:55:10,600 --> 02:55:11,880
know, I don't need anything
more.

2844
02:55:12,960 --> 02:55:17,000
And Joseph muster asked him,
would you refuse a blessing of

2845
02:55:17,000 --> 02:55:20,080
the Lord?
And ruling replied no.

2846
02:55:22,880 --> 02:55:25,240
And Joseph Muster says, well,
you have no choice in the

2847
02:55:25,240 --> 02:55:27,200
matter.
And he proceeds to ordain,

2848
02:55:27,200 --> 02:55:28,720
ruling Allred to the
apostleship.

2849
02:55:31,160 --> 02:55:36,520
And so here we get into issues.
And I can see why on a certain

2850
02:55:36,520 --> 02:55:39,400
level.
Because if true, if he did go to

2851
02:55:39,400 --> 02:55:42,600
a member of the council, Marion
Hammond, and asked for advice,

2852
02:55:42,800 --> 02:55:44,920
right, we kind of covered that.
And he was told no.

2853
02:55:46,680 --> 02:55:49,480
You know that calling died
probably should have just gone

2854
02:55:49,920 --> 02:55:52,880
to Joseph Muster to begin with.
And it would have gone out of

2855
02:55:52,880 --> 02:55:58,400
that trouble because it looks
like you're seeking for a

2856
02:55:58,400 --> 02:56:00,970
position when you when you've
been told one thing and now

2857
02:56:00,970 --> 02:56:03,490
you're going to go over
someone's head, so to speak.

2858
02:56:03,490 --> 02:56:06,290
And it looks that way.
And I can see that.

2859
02:56:06,290 --> 02:56:11,610
And I think at this time, the
brethren at the of the priest of

2860
02:56:11,610 --> 02:56:14,850
council, it was actually what
we're talking.

2861
02:56:14,930 --> 02:56:17,770
It was the opposite problem of
the one man problem at this

2862
02:56:17,770 --> 02:56:20,010
point.
It was the gridlock problem of

2863
02:56:20,010 --> 02:56:22,970
everyone needs to be united and
everyone needs to be like

2864
02:56:22,970 --> 02:56:25,450
unanimous in order to pass a
decision.

2865
02:56:25,770 --> 02:56:28,950
But now you have a private
moment where Joseph Musser has

2866
02:56:28,950 --> 02:56:33,350
ordained ruling.
Allredon, Apostle and the rest

2867
02:56:33,350 --> 02:56:36,270
of the council were not
consulted and they don't like

2868
02:56:36,270 --> 02:56:39,790
it.
And I I can see the the point.

2869
02:56:39,910 --> 02:56:44,830
I can see the point of view.
Let's see, that comes from

2870
02:56:44,830 --> 02:56:48,190
Moroni Jessup's journal when he
was asking Joe Thompson about

2871
02:56:48,190 --> 02:56:50,430
it, by the way, about these
events.

2872
02:56:53,210 --> 02:56:56,730
And Moroni asks Joe Thompson,
who we mentioned earlier, right.

2873
02:56:56,730 --> 02:57:00,330
And he was 16 years old a few
minutes ago in this interview,

2874
02:57:00,330 --> 02:57:02,610
right?
But now he's, you know, he's in

2875
02:57:02,610 --> 02:57:04,810
the group and he's seeing some
of these events, right?

2876
02:57:04,810 --> 02:57:08,770
And he's talking to, in more
modern times, Moroni Jessup and

2877
02:57:08,770 --> 02:57:12,250
others, how this kind of went
down from his perspective.

2878
02:57:13,250 --> 02:57:19,320
And so after that happened,
Joseph Musser went down to Short

2879
02:57:19,320 --> 02:57:22,160
Creek, I think, and they had a
meeting and he wanted to call a

2880
02:57:22,160 --> 02:57:25,400
sustaining vote for who would
support the calling.

2881
02:57:26,200 --> 02:57:30,200
Now Joe Thompson says he was the
sound technician at that meeting

2882
02:57:31,120 --> 02:57:34,080
and so he was there.
And he says most if not all of

2883
02:57:34,080 --> 02:57:37,520
the general people sustained it
but that not a single other

2884
02:57:37,520 --> 02:57:42,160
member of the council except for
Richard Seth Jessup sustained

2885
02:57:42,760 --> 02:57:46,360
the calling of ruling Allred to
be an apostle.

2886
02:57:46,920 --> 02:57:51,210
And let's see we're and I
couldn't tell you all the

2887
02:57:51,210 --> 02:57:53,250
reasons I have theories.
I'm developing theories and it's

2888
02:57:53,250 --> 02:57:55,770
just theory at this point
regarding some of what's going

2889
02:57:55,890 --> 02:58:01,450
to play out here.
But at the now there's they're

2890
02:58:01,450 --> 02:58:05,250
starting you're starting to see
the seeds of what happens.

2891
02:58:05,370 --> 02:58:09,530
You know, it's a split.
And they start kind of figuring

2892
02:58:09,530 --> 02:58:12,450
out some people who are in
favor, right, of ruling Allred

2893
02:58:12,450 --> 02:58:14,570
being called as an A fossil and
people who are against it.

2894
02:58:14,650 --> 02:58:18,110
And some people like Lyman
Jessup and his journal, which is

2895
02:58:18,110 --> 02:58:20,990
contemporary with these events,
they're trying to figure out

2896
02:58:20,990 --> 02:58:22,270
who's for it and who's against
it.

2897
02:58:22,750 --> 02:58:27,790
And he writes in his journal on
May 27th, 1951 that Doctor Le

2898
02:58:27,790 --> 02:58:30,630
Grand Woolly, which is the same
Le Grand Woolly of the

2899
02:58:30,630 --> 02:58:33,550
priesthood council that we
talked about earlier.

2900
02:58:33,550 --> 02:58:35,510
Right.
Who asked is there, is there an

2901
02:58:35,510 --> 02:58:37,110
apostle of the Lord, Right,
that.

2902
02:58:38,510 --> 02:58:42,270
Well Joseph Lyman Jessup writes
that Doctor Le Grand Woolly is

2903
02:58:42,270 --> 02:58:46,540
an avowed enemy of ruling Allred
and that so this is 21 days

2904
02:58:46,940 --> 02:58:52,860
after that sustaining meeting
which was on May 6th 6th 1951.

2905
02:58:53,780 --> 02:58:58,780
And so it's I want to know what
it was and I don't know if it

2906
02:58:58,780 --> 02:59:01,460
was business or what because
both ruling Allred and and

2907
02:59:01,460 --> 02:59:03,660
Doctor Lagran Richard there were
doctors right.

2908
02:59:03,820 --> 02:59:07,380
So it's a bad blood that's now
starting something or rumors and

2909
02:59:07,740 --> 02:59:13,020
and through the professional you
know, field and then like

2910
02:59:13,020 --> 02:59:18,170
through a telephone game game
something that's either either

2911
02:59:18,170 --> 02:59:20,890
small or not true at all gets
snowballed into something that's

2912
02:59:20,890 --> 02:59:22,210
nefarious.
Right.

2913
02:59:23,090 --> 02:59:27,690
Because by January of 1952 Lyman
Jessup writes in his journal

2914
02:59:28,170 --> 02:59:34,450
that Legrand Woolly pulled his
father Joseph Smith Jessup and

2915
02:59:34,450 --> 02:59:38,090
I, aunt this Barlow that Joseph
Musser couldn't be trusted with

2916
02:59:38,090 --> 02:59:42,810
anything now because of the
calling of ruin Allred.

2917
02:59:43,090 --> 02:59:48,260
And so I wonder, and if Lagrande
Wooley had we kind of planted

2918
02:59:48,260 --> 02:59:51,940
some bad seeds in the priest of
council that got the rest of the

2919
02:59:51,940 --> 02:59:55,860
priest of council feeling like
they couldn't sustain him, along

2920
02:59:55,860 --> 02:59:59,020
with the combination of we got
to do this with complete

2921
02:59:59,020 --> 03:00:03,380
unanimity.
And I don't know, this is, this

2922
03:00:03,380 --> 03:00:07,220
is my spitball.
Guess I I very much think, based

2923
03:00:07,220 --> 03:00:11,260
on what I hear from both sides
of the split, that there's a

2924
03:00:11,260 --> 03:00:13,140
truth in the middle that is
missing.

2925
03:00:13,780 --> 03:00:16,560
Right.
And this is the part that's lost

2926
03:00:16,560 --> 03:00:20,760
to history right that that
chances are I mean maybe it's in

2927
03:00:20,760 --> 03:00:23,280
journal somewhere we'll discover
later.

2928
03:00:23,920 --> 03:00:31,240
But for now I I've, I've come to
this conclusion with with this

2929
03:00:31,240 --> 03:00:38,320
idea that this split in my in my
mind was probably a good thing.

2930
03:00:39,480 --> 03:00:44,200
It was a good thing overall.
It sucks that it went down the

2931
03:00:44,200 --> 03:00:51,240
way it did, but let's just look
at what has grown out of that K

2932
03:00:51,960 --> 03:00:55,480
Let's look first at the Allred
side.

2933
03:00:55,480 --> 03:01:02,360
You had the branch.
You've had the a UB you've had

2934
03:01:04,240 --> 03:01:07,520
numerous independence that all
claim their leadership their

2935
03:01:07,520 --> 03:01:09,880
their lineage back through
Allred.

2936
03:01:10,890 --> 03:01:15,570
We go down South we know that
there was a pretty big to do

2937
03:01:15,570 --> 03:01:23,650
with with Jeff's but that also
bore good fruit in Centennial

2938
03:01:23,650 --> 03:01:29,930
Park Nielsen Nailers and again
Independence right and and so I

2939
03:01:30,090 --> 03:01:35,050
I have a hard time here trying
to do this thing where I say who

2940
03:01:35,050 --> 03:01:38,450
was right and who was wrong.
Look, the FLDS went off the

2941
03:01:38,450 --> 03:01:44,280
rails, but it produced other
groups that are fairly, you

2942
03:01:44,280 --> 03:01:47,040
know, stable well to do good
folks in them.

2943
03:01:48,680 --> 03:01:50,880
Likewise with the.
Right.

2944
03:01:50,920 --> 03:01:52,440
And they've learned the lessons,
right.

2945
03:01:52,560 --> 03:01:55,080
Like, for example, what you
have, you have Second Ward and

2946
03:01:55,080 --> 03:01:58,560
3rd Ward with the, I like to
call the Nielsen Ayler Group.

2947
03:02:00,360 --> 03:02:05,680
They're they've learned a lesson
that was so harsh that it'll be

2948
03:02:05,680 --> 03:02:08,120
in their bones for generations.
Yeah.

2949
03:02:08,790 --> 03:02:11,430
Now and the Lord's and the
Lord's hand was in that.

2950
03:02:11,910 --> 03:02:14,590
Yeah.
And and and I've I've met some

2951
03:02:14,590 --> 03:02:17,750
of the Nielsen Naylor folks.
They are great great people

2952
03:02:18,030 --> 03:02:23,950
right and and so if I'm saying
that that this is the fruit of

2953
03:02:24,110 --> 03:02:26,550
of what muster did there.
I'm good with that.

2954
03:02:27,590 --> 03:02:31,950
I'm good with that.
I think you can look at better

2955
03:02:31,950 --> 03:02:35,550
both ways.
The people lost something with

2956
03:02:35,550 --> 03:02:41,210
that split.
But God will use everything at

2957
03:02:41,210 --> 03:02:45,570
his disposal to as at his
disposal to teach extremely

2958
03:02:45,570 --> 03:02:48,290
valuable lessons.
And it's better that we got that

2959
03:02:48,290 --> 03:02:52,250
lesson out of the way and not
have to have it down the road

2960
03:02:52,250 --> 03:02:55,410
kicking around down the Pike,
right?

2961
03:02:55,930 --> 03:02:58,090
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

2962
03:02:59,650 --> 03:03:03,530
So let me ask you this.
When it comes to fundamentalism,

2963
03:03:04,250 --> 03:03:10,710
what do you think, Mussers?
Legacy is Musser's legacy is

2964
03:03:10,710 --> 03:03:15,710
making sure that no single
principle of the gospel is

2965
03:03:15,710 --> 03:03:21,230
abandoned and no no single law
of the priesthood is neglected,

2966
03:03:21,750 --> 03:03:25,030
and that all ordinances of the
priesthood are perpetuated.

2967
03:03:25,350 --> 03:03:28,470
And so this is what I'm talking
about when when I said earlier

2968
03:03:29,670 --> 03:03:33,470
that everyone lost something
over that split, even though God

2969
03:03:33,470 --> 03:03:35,990
used it to turn around to teach
very valuable lessons, is.

2970
03:03:36,850 --> 03:03:41,010
From the 1940s on, like in the
1940s, it's very clear, it's

2971
03:03:41,010 --> 03:03:45,130
very, very clear that Joseph
Musser and John Wybarlow and

2972
03:03:45,130 --> 03:03:48,810
others, they wanted to start
doing ordinance, work, temple

2973
03:03:48,810 --> 03:03:51,330
ordinances for the people who
are now.

2974
03:03:51,530 --> 03:03:54,410
It's the next generation at that
point, growing up out of the

2975
03:03:54,410 --> 03:03:57,890
church, because they've been cut
off and they need a knowledge of

2976
03:03:57,890 --> 03:04:02,050
holy covenants in order to live
the gospel, right?

2977
03:04:03,610 --> 03:04:06,490
And it's unfortunate that John,
why Barlow dies and that Joseph

2978
03:04:06,490 --> 03:04:09,010
Musser has that stroke right at
that point in time and then

2979
03:04:09,010 --> 03:04:12,130
right after it, the split
happens, right?

2980
03:04:12,330 --> 03:04:15,570
But I know on the other side of
the split that isn't the Allred

2981
03:04:15,570 --> 03:04:19,130
group, You have Guy Musser.
I've seen sermons and letters

2982
03:04:19,130 --> 03:04:23,450
from him in the 1950s where he's
actually, I like what he says

2983
03:04:23,450 --> 03:04:24,530
here.
He says something along the

2984
03:04:24,530 --> 03:04:27,650
lines of Why are we praying for
the One Mighty and Strong to set

2985
03:04:27,650 --> 03:04:30,580
the Church in order?
When we could be praying that we

2986
03:04:30,580 --> 03:04:32,940
could be ready for the
priesthood council to give us

2987
03:04:32,940 --> 03:04:34,980
our endowments now.
Yeah.

2988
03:04:37,700 --> 03:04:39,460
Yeah.
Actually that's 1950, that's

2989
03:04:39,460 --> 03:04:42,380
before the split just barely.
But that's right before the

2990
03:04:42,380 --> 03:04:45,020
split because that he said that
in the year 1950, I believe

2991
03:04:45,700 --> 03:04:49,380
that's that was the direction
that they were going was to

2992
03:04:49,380 --> 03:04:51,300
perpetuate every single
ordinance.

2993
03:04:51,500 --> 03:04:54,860
You know, we saw that, that
journal entry, that Guy Musser.

2994
03:04:55,450 --> 03:04:58,010
Had, you know, apparently
received a special blessing at

2995
03:04:58,010 --> 03:05:00,290
the hands of his father five
years before that.

2996
03:05:00,650 --> 03:05:03,770
You know, it's it.
To me it's very clear that that

2997
03:05:03,770 --> 03:05:07,330
was the way things were going to
go was was building temples and

2998
03:05:08,450 --> 03:05:13,090
receiving the ordinances
unchanged because the church is

2999
03:05:13,290 --> 03:05:14,810
the church has changed the
ordinances.

3000
03:05:15,130 --> 03:05:16,050
Yeah.
Yep.

3001
03:05:17,410 --> 03:05:21,210
Yep.
No 100%.

3002
03:05:22,010 --> 03:05:28,600
I I'm sitting here and as I'm
thinking about muster, he's a

3003
03:05:28,600 --> 03:05:32,200
bridge and I think you pointed
that out earlier.

3004
03:05:32,920 --> 03:05:38,960
He is a bridge between pioneer
Mormonism and modern day

3005
03:05:38,960 --> 03:05:42,920
fundamentalism.
And just like a bridge, I think

3006
03:05:42,920 --> 03:05:48,600
we as fundamentalists all walk
across his back, if you will, to

3007
03:05:49,440 --> 03:05:54,940
to receiving the fullness
because of his efforts.

3008
03:05:55,940 --> 03:05:59,140
Certainly there were other men
that played vital roles.

3009
03:05:59,820 --> 03:06:05,660
But when it comes to muster, I
think I, I I think kind of maybe

3010
03:06:05,660 --> 03:06:10,420
the same same thing could be
said about him as maybe other

3011
03:06:10,420 --> 03:06:15,180
great leaders.
He may not have been the

3012
03:06:15,180 --> 03:06:18,420
absolute guy in charge, but he
was probably the indispensable

3013
03:06:18,420 --> 03:06:20,540
man for that, for what had to be
done.

3014
03:06:21,400 --> 03:06:25,680
Yeah, I He was conditioned.
He was, he was conditioned and

3015
03:06:25,680 --> 03:06:30,360
raised to be that man so well by
his upbringing.

3016
03:06:31,240 --> 03:06:33,280
And it's, you know, other people
could have done it.

3017
03:06:33,280 --> 03:06:35,720
But it's also it's kind of
almost like Joseph Smith, like

3018
03:06:36,000 --> 03:06:39,880
he was the one chosen to do.
Yep, what he had to do.

3019
03:06:39,880 --> 03:06:42,560
And yeah, the Lord, the Lord
told Joseph, like, if you

3020
03:06:42,560 --> 03:06:45,560
transgress, I can raise up other
people to take your place.

3021
03:06:46,040 --> 03:06:47,440
Yeah.
You know, the Lord had that

3022
03:06:47,440 --> 03:06:51,300
ability to do that.
I have no doubt that they could

3023
03:06:51,300 --> 03:06:56,020
have, and those those men on
both sides were good men I

3024
03:06:56,020 --> 03:06:58,820
think, and then they had the
same goals.

3025
03:06:59,540 --> 03:07:03,100
The methods are things we need
to watch, right?

3026
03:07:03,580 --> 03:07:05,940
Very closely is the way we
approach our goals.

3027
03:07:06,580 --> 03:07:08,500
Yep.
Yep, absolutely.

3028
03:07:09,860 --> 03:07:12,580
Yep.
Well, dude, this was awesome.

3029
03:07:12,740 --> 03:07:16,340
This was epic, people.
I think.

3030
03:07:16,380 --> 03:07:21,050
I think so too.
I, I and I don't think brother

3031
03:07:21,050 --> 03:07:25,410
Musser's story's over quite yet
either.

3032
03:07:26,210 --> 03:07:29,810
I for some reason I think he's
about to come front, front and

3033
03:07:29,810 --> 03:07:32,850
center again somehow.
I don't know if that's a journal

3034
03:07:32,850 --> 03:07:37,130
that will come forth but or
renewed interest in the man but

3035
03:07:37,130 --> 03:07:41,250
but I I have a feeling things
are going to get his story's not

3036
03:07:41,250 --> 03:07:43,570
over yet.
But anyway I.

3037
03:07:44,250 --> 03:07:45,770
For one, would always love to
learn more.

3038
03:07:46,050 --> 03:07:48,010
Yep.
Anything else you want to add

3039
03:07:48,010 --> 03:07:51,500
before we wrap up Big Dog?
I don't think so.

3040
03:07:51,500 --> 03:07:54,340
I think we've we've done our due
diligence, try to teach these

3041
03:07:54,340 --> 03:07:59,460
people and I hope the listeners
have enjoyed learning about this

3042
03:07:59,460 --> 03:08:05,700
man and the the heritage that we
have and I hope that we can live

3043
03:08:05,700 --> 03:08:09,700
up to the goals that have been
set by these people.

3044
03:08:09,700 --> 03:08:12,420
He's brethren, you know, Joseph
Musser and his contemporaries,

3045
03:08:13,020 --> 03:08:16,460
John Taylor, you know, and and
their contemporaries all the way

3046
03:08:16,460 --> 03:08:19,010
back.
To Joseph Smith and my prayer is

3047
03:08:19,010 --> 03:08:22,810
always that Make covenants with
the Lord and keep them.

3048
03:08:23,450 --> 03:08:26,370
And remember, remember who you
are.

3049
03:08:26,570 --> 03:08:28,290
Turn your hearts back to your
Father's.

3050
03:08:29,170 --> 03:08:31,650
That's the that's the only thing
I could exhort anyone.

3051
03:08:31,650 --> 03:08:34,970
That's the message here today is
this is, this is the way that

3052
03:08:34,970 --> 03:08:39,570
the Lord has presented for us to
to have our exaltation to learn

3053
03:08:39,570 --> 03:08:43,250
how God became God is through
temple ordinances, through

3054
03:08:43,250 --> 03:08:46,010
perpetuating every doctrine,
law.

3055
03:08:47,090 --> 03:08:54,050
An ordinance and submitting our
will and our hearts in such a

3056
03:08:54,050 --> 03:08:56,010
way that we can learn to love
these things?

3057
03:08:56,450 --> 03:08:59,690
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

3058
03:09:01,090 --> 03:09:03,450
Dude, we just did six hours on
muster.

3059
03:09:05,130 --> 03:09:08,370
Are you serious?
We had 30 hours the first one

3060
03:09:08,370 --> 03:09:10,290
and we're into it. 3 1/2 hours
now.

3061
03:09:11,290 --> 03:09:14,200
Okay.
I could have gone more, but I

3062
03:09:14,200 --> 03:09:16,560
think it was it's good.
It was a good we did a good job.

3063
03:09:17,080 --> 03:09:19,880
If if you discover something
more, though, we'll we'll fire

3064
03:09:19,880 --> 03:09:25,040
this microphone back up.
I'm just wondering what we want

3065
03:09:25,040 --> 03:09:27,000
to do next.
But I shouldn't get too too

3066
03:09:27,000 --> 03:09:29,920
ahead of myself.
Nope, it feels good.

3067
03:09:29,960 --> 03:09:31,120
Feels good to be done with this
one.

3068
03:09:31,120 --> 03:09:33,800
I've been, I've been reading
nothing about Joseph Musser for

3069
03:09:33,880 --> 03:09:35,800
like 2 weeks.
That's awesome.

3070
03:09:36,000 --> 03:09:38,240
That's awesome.
All right, Michael.

3071
03:09:38,480 --> 03:09:41,000
Thank you, man.
Hey, thank you.

3072
03:09:41,000 --> 03:09:43,380
You're doing good work.
Oh, I try.

3073
03:09:44,020 --> 03:09:45,340
Appreciate it.
Bye, everybody.

3074
03:10:07,880 --> 03:10:10,480
You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.