Episode #78: The Historicity Of The Book Of Abraham W/Ken Peterson

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OK, if you haven't gone to the
Mormon Renegade Patreon page and

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signed up for at least a $6
package, you might want to do

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that right now.
This episode has a lot of cool

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slides in the video that you're
going to want to keep a hold of,

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one of the tactics commonly used
by detractors of the restored

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gospels to call into question
the veracity of the Book of

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Abraham.
They will tell you that is

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simply a work of fiction based
on the imagination of the

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Prophet Joseph Smith when he
bought some mummies.

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However, those detractors aren't
giving you the full story or

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being completely forthcoming
with all the evidence.

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This serves to cause some to
doubt their testimony of the

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restored gospel without ever
hearing the full story.

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Well, on this episode I have Ken
Peterson back on the podcast and

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we're going to do our best Paul
Harvey and give you the rest of

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the story on the Book of
Abraham.

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With all the information and
context, by the end of this

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podcast you'll be able to come
away not only still believing in

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the Book of Abraham, but also
knowing that the book's

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historicity is not in doubt.
And that's next on this episode

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of the Mormon Renegade Podcast.
Look, it's no secret that our

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society has become much more
crude and coarse to become and

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raise men and women of virtue
and characters, a Herculean

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task.
To help with this, I've recently

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wrote and published a book.
Now, back in the 1700s,

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Washington had a book called
Rules of Civility and Decent

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Behavior and Company and
Conversation.

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It was a book with 110 rules
that talked about how to conduct

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yourself like a civilized person
in society, something that

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today's society is sorely
lacking.

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What I did is I went back
through the book and I

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reinterpreted his original
sayings for the 21st century.

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So the book is laid out in a way
in which you see Washington's

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original rule.
Right below that is my

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explanation for the 21st
century, and below that you'll

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find two or three examples of
where to use this in the real

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world.
Now, to go along with this,

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there's a workbook that helps
parents teach these principles

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and practices to their kids.
To find the book, go to

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mormonrenegade.com, go to the
bottom of the page, search out

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the blog post, and order your
copy.

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Today, I can bear personal
testimony from personal

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experience.
That this is an invaluable tool

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to help you raise men and women
of virtue and character.

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You're listening to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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And my man, dude, I got to tell
you, when I was down for the

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Glenn Beck thing earlier this
week, it was so nice to meet you

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in person.
Likewise and it was so fun to

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visit with you in person and to
realize you're just as nice in

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person as you are over zoom.
Well, I kind of felt bad for

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you, right?
Because I'm like, coming in your

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house and you're like, whoa, his
waistline's way larger than I

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would have imagined from the
same.

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Way No way.
I didn't feel that at all.

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It was it was great fun and was
especially I know how busy you

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are and how many things you had
planned.

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So I was especially flattered
that you would take time out of

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your busy schedule.
You kid me, man, You're one of

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my favorites.
Thank.

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You I'll take that opportunity
anytime I get so as as we got

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talking on our last episode at
the end because newsflash for

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everybody else when I wrap up
and say see everybody later.

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That's not the end for me and my
guest.

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We we chat a little bit
afterwards and Ken had like some

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amazing ideas and one of those
that he had was something that

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trips a lot of Mormons up and
that is the Book of Abraham and

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the historicity of the Book of
Abraham.

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Because Ken correct me if I'm
wrong, that's like one of the

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main things that the the both
the never Mormons and the

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disgruntled.
Faction of Mormonism I guess

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Love to attack, right?
For a while they glommed on

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really hard to the CES letter
and then through the work of

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like folks like Sarah Allen.
She's done a great job in

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defending that.
And then oh, by the way, we

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found horses you know in in in
pre Columbus America.

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That poses a problem, right.
So but Book of Abraham, they

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really glom onto an attack.
That's been my experience.

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In fact, I have a good friend
who confided in me that he had

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his name removed from the
records of the church because of

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the Book of Abraham.
And I said, well, you know, the

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whole story, right?
And he goes, what do you mean?

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And I told the whole story and I
was like, wow, I didn't know

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that.
And so and the information.

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Well, and anytime we talk about
things like this of a scholarly

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nature and people say, well,
I've done my research and left

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the church.
My question to them is when you

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say research, did you fully
examine both sides?

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Because if you haven't, that's
not research, that's propaganda.

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And both sides are amply
represented online if you know

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where to look and.
And I'm one who encourages

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people, just like Joseph Smith
did, to live how you choose.

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We claim the privilege of
worshipping the God Almighty

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according to the dictates of our
own conscience, and we want all

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others to do the same.
And we'll and we'll fight for

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others to do that.
But I think the only thing that

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gets to me is when people make
those decisions without having

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investigated everything.
You know which is called, which

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is called deception.
You know, and what you will find

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and what you will see in
tonight's discussion.

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Critics of the Church, in
particular things related to the

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Book of Abraham, are very good
at not telling you everything.

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They only tell you the things
that would manipulate you to do

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what they want you to do and
why.

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There are people out there who
want to crush.

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Poor Mormons testimonies.
I don't fully understand that.

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But there I know for a fact that
there are those in this world

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that is their desire.
They dream of such things.

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They they enjoy that it's really
sick.

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But it is kind of sick.
No, it really is because the the

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I love what you said there when
people say they've done their

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research.
Usually what that means is

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they've encountered, like White
House Ministries, or they've

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encountered an Egyptologist who
said, Oh no, that that

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facsimiles from the Book of the
The Egyptian Book of the Dead.

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They haven't spent any time
researching both sides of the

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argument, right?
They feel like they've gotten

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the full story on the Book of
Abraham without ever.

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Diving in and really doing the
scholarly work to find out if

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it's true or not.
And there's a certain amount of

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hubris involved in that, A
certain amount of I mean, do

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they really believe they're the
only Mormon who has ever lived,

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who has gumbled across these
things?

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Are they not aware that there
are old Mormons like me out

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there who read everything
already?

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And much of what what I'm going
to refer to today, that was

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available knowledge in 1987?
That was the first book I read

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and probably the most
informative book I read on the

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facsimility on the facsimiles in
their interpretation.

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So I mean if if it were me
stumbling across this stuff, I

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would think certainly there are
Latter Day Saints out there who

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have answers or who can explain
both sides of this.

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So before I do anything rash or
run crying to my mommy, that

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wasn't a nice thing to say.
Why don't I investigate this and

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talk to people who've been down
this path before?

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Because as you and I have talked
before, there are people out

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there who know more than all of
us put together and are devout,

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more devout as Latter Day
Saints.

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As statistics have demonstrated,
the more educated.

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And this is contrary to the
statistics of all other

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Christian faiths or
religiosities in the United

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States at least.
That in the Latter Day Saints

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faith, the more education you
have, the more devote, the more

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devout you are, which is
contrary to other faiths.

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The more education they have,
the less devout they are.

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And that's not true with
Mormonism, and it has to do with

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LDS scholarship.
You know, and and here's the

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thing when when people, when
people, when people criticize

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like this, I I don't get
offended, right.

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I'm like, OK, well let's look at
the evidence, right.

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Yeah.
One is, is that I've been

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through the fire a little bit,
so I know what it's like to have

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your back up against the wall
and have to reexamine everything

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you believe, right?
I remember when I first came

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into Mormonism well, and this
was a little bit before, right?

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Like, I stopped drinking, I
stopped doing drugs, and then I

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started reading a whole bunch.
And like, I think I freaked the

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person out at Barnes and Noble
because I'm like, okay.

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I'm going to find the truth of
everything no matter where it

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is.
So, like, I must have had like

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the.
The, the, the reading library of

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a schizophrenic because I would
go from like, you know, the

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Communist Manifesto to Adam
Smith and the Wealth of Nations,

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right.
And so it was just, I was like,

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we're going to find out where
this, where this goes.

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And I would say this, if if
you're finding something that's

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challenging here, that's a good
sign.

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I think that's something that
tells you you're a thinker,

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right?
Yeah.

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Before, but I would caution
before you just throw the baby

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out with the bathwater, do your
homework right.

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Don't take what I have to say is
gospel.

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Ever.
I am a flawed man with many,

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many character flaws.
Ken is way better than I am, but

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he's still not.
Go.

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Go.
Do your own research, right.

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Don't just take our word for.
It.

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The nature of true scholarship
is to fully investigate all

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sides before you make a
decision, and I think that's one

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of the reasons why you and I hit
it off from the very beginning.

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We tend to think alike, and I
was going, as I was going over

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the mountains of information in
preparation for tonight,

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reviewing all of these things
and trying to put it together in

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a useful fashion.
Once again, my skeptical mind is

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overwhelmed with the
impossibility of what Joseph

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Smith did, as we will see.
It's almost as if he was showing

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up.
I mean, of course he wasn't.

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He was acting as a prophet.
But it is, it's to this day, it

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boggles my mind that he was able
to do what he did.

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Yeah.
Or I should say that God was

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able to do what he did
absolutely through immortal

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Joseph.
Absolutely.

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So real quick, give us a rundown
of what, what the Book of

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Abraham is.
Where did we get it?

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Let's just assume nobody has
that back story.

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Awesome.
And this is.

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Let's start there.
So you see the screen, what

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we're going to talk about
tonight, given time an

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introduction to the whole topic.
Then we'll dive right into the

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criticism starting from the
worst of the best.

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Then my favorite, we're going to
dive into the home runs, the

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impossible, bull's eyes,
whatever you want to call them.

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And inevitably there's going to
be some overlap because in

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answering the criticisms.
Which is, Which has always been

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the rewarding thing for me as I
study criticisms of the

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restoration is that in answering
in when you when you get past

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the half truth and get the whole
answer, it's miraculous.

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The vindication is it it?
I always kind of come out of it

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like I did tonight.
Again, just reviewing this

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stuff, going I can't believe it.
I can't believe how true this

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whole thing is.
Anyway, and then once we get

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past the home runs, if there's
still time around midnight, I

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want to get into the profound
doctrines.

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I mean it.
It's fun for me to talk about

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the ins and outs and the
criticisms and the reputations,

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the Book of Abraham, Abraham.
But it's true value to us is the

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doctrines that we get from it,
which is really kind of amazing.

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And there, without getting
specific, there's so much

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overlap.
Between the temple ceremony and

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and the book of Abraham, right?
Now you're getting into one of

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the other topics on the list.
OK.

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I'll, I'll, I'll back off.
I'll back off.

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All right, let's.
Oh, no, no.

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But I want to.
I want to address that because

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we do.
I want to talk about that

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00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,400
another time.
But what most people don't

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00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,680
understand, in fact, this is a
topic I didn't put on that list.

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00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:30,800
I gave you the Freemasonry and
the temple, you know, but that's

228
00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,720
not anti.
Love to jump on that bandwagon

229
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,880
and say, you know those Mormons,
they just stole everything from

230
00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,440
Freemasonry.
So I'm in a nutshell.

231
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,520
Yeah, I'm not ready to go out
with this full tilt, but you and

232
00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,200
I are going to talk for about 5
minutes after the podcast

233
00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,800
because I have a theory and I
want to run it by you.

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00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,960
Well, for Father's Day, I just
got Jeffrey Bradshaw's latest.

235
00:13:56,770 --> 00:14:00,930
400 page volume on Freemasonry,
the oldest temple which and the

236
00:14:01,010 --> 00:14:03,930
the arguments of the issues
involved I've been familiar with

237
00:14:04,250 --> 00:14:08,370
for some time, but of course he
he's very good at documenting

238
00:14:08,370 --> 00:14:10,010
everything so I can't wait to
tear into that.

239
00:14:10,010 --> 00:14:18,690
But in a nutshell, less than 2%
of what occurs within our temple

240
00:14:18,690 --> 00:14:23,970
rights has any similarity at all
to Freemasonry.

241
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:32,760
And close to 100% of what we do
you will find in these ancient

242
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:37,040
extra canonical texts in my
book, 50 pages of it.

243
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,800
How do you explain that number
1, #2 Joseph Smith didn't enter

244
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,080
the temple until 1840.
It didn't become a Freemason

245
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:52,440
till 1842.
The significant restored temple

246
00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,380
teachings.
He was teaching and studying in

247
00:14:56,420 --> 00:15:01,180
1835, seven years ahead of the
game, because of the Book of

248
00:15:01,180 --> 00:15:02,620
Abraham, because of his work on
that.

249
00:15:03,260 --> 00:15:05,740
Right, right.
But we'll see how significant

250
00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:08,220
this is.
Well, to get into it, right?

251
00:15:09,740 --> 00:15:11,580
So So what is the book of
Abraham?

252
00:15:12,860 --> 00:15:14,660
Well, in here you can see the
map.

253
00:15:15,380 --> 00:15:20,900
This is a map of Egypt, Ancient
Egypt, so in 1835 while in

254
00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:23,650
Kirtland.
Joseph Smith, on behalf of the

255
00:15:23,650 --> 00:15:29,410
church purchased 4 Egyptian
mummies and each mummy had their

256
00:15:29,410 --> 00:15:33,850
own papyrus, at least one from a
guy named Michael Chandler.

257
00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:42,090
We'll get to that back story.
They paid $2400 in 1835 for that

258
00:15:42,090 --> 00:15:45,610
collection.
Now remember how the Saints were

259
00:15:45,610 --> 00:15:48,050
living in Kirtland?
They were paupers.

260
00:15:48,090 --> 00:15:50,610
They had nothing.
They were struggling just for

261
00:15:50,610 --> 00:15:54,630
housing.
And somehow they coughed up what

262
00:15:54,630 --> 00:15:59,870
today the equivalent would be
$82,000 to purchase 4 mummies in

263
00:15:59,870 --> 00:16:02,790
their papyri.
How curious.

264
00:16:03,270 --> 00:16:06,190
How?
I mean, why would they do that?

265
00:16:06,750 --> 00:16:11,310
Why were they $82,000?
People were just struggling to

266
00:16:11,310 --> 00:16:14,550
live and they coughed up 82
grand for some old mummies in

267
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:17,590
papyri.
They didn't even know how many

268
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:20,990
papyri because the papyri were
were tucked inside the mummies.

269
00:16:21,550 --> 00:16:25,630
Right.
Anyway, this Michael Chandler

270
00:16:25,630 --> 00:16:30,350
had acquired them in 1833.
He acquired 11 of them and he'd

271
00:16:30,350 --> 00:16:33,950
been touring throughout the the
United States with the time,

272
00:16:33,950 --> 00:16:37,430
which is East Coast making money
off of him.

273
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:41,470
He had already sold seven prior
to meeting Joseph Smith.

274
00:16:41,470 --> 00:16:46,230
He had four left and he sold the
remaining mummies and the

275
00:16:46,230 --> 00:16:48,510
accompanying papyri and a
hypocephalus.

276
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,240
A little an amulet, a plaster
amulet that would either go

277
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,040
under the head or on the chest
of the mummy to remind the

278
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:59,720
deceased of of how to pass into
the eternal world, which is also

279
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,080
very, very interesting.
We'll get to that.

280
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,160
When Joseph Smith had acquired
them, he announced that they

281
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,560
contained some of the writings
of the patriarchs Abraham and

282
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,240
Joseph, both of whom had lived
in Egypt.

283
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,640
Let me interject here, because
this I didn't include this as

284
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,599
part of the presentation.
So we have the Book of Abraham.

285
00:17:19,550 --> 00:17:21,630
He said the writings of Jonas
Joseph were there too.

286
00:17:22,310 --> 00:17:25,230
Where's that?
We don't have that?

287
00:17:26,589 --> 00:17:29,430
There are three facsimiles in
our Book of Abraham.

288
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:32,950
The Book of Abraham only talks
about the first facsimile.

289
00:17:34,310 --> 00:17:36,710
The 2nd 2 have no accompanying
text.

290
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:42,150
John Gee, A preeminent
Egyptologist and a lot of the

291
00:17:42,150 --> 00:17:47,710
Saint has estimated well, it's
believed that Joseph Smith had.

292
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,560
Finished translating both of
those books, Abraham and Joseph,

293
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,920
but before his death he was only
able to publish in the Times and

294
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,360
Seasons the book of Abram that
we have.

295
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:07,280
It is estimated that between 2/3
and 3/4 or between 66 and 75% of

296
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:12,440
what he translated is still out.
There somewhere, and we have no

297
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,400
idea where it's at.
No, it's probably in your great

298
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,610
grandma's attic.
Everybody goes.

299
00:18:19,610 --> 00:18:22,770
Look at your grandma's ad right,
right now.

300
00:18:22,930 --> 00:18:25,490
How's the podcast?
Go to your grandma's attic and

301
00:18:25,490 --> 00:18:28,650
start rummaging around.
Because if they are related to

302
00:18:28,650 --> 00:18:33,050
facsimile 2 and facsimile 3,
it's talking about astronomy,

303
00:18:34,050 --> 00:18:40,450
astronomy of God, wow wow.
Anyway, so if we look at this

304
00:18:40,450 --> 00:18:44,770
map here on the left of your
screen, the area in the red.

305
00:18:45,870 --> 00:18:48,150
Is where they were discovered.
We'll go into more details.

306
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:51,190
So this is referred to as the
Upper Nile or Upper Egypt.

307
00:18:51,630 --> 00:18:53,790
And the ancient Egyptian capital
was Thebes.

308
00:18:57,550 --> 00:18:59,990
And here's a closer map of that
area.

309
00:19:01,670 --> 00:19:09,430
On the right hand side of the
map you'll see Karnak, which the

310
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:11,550
other one on my list is the
Egyptian Endowment.

311
00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:16,250
There are two ancient.
Egyptian temples dating to the

312
00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:21,530
time period of Moses that
predate the more ostentatious

313
00:19:21,530 --> 00:19:24,850
Egyptian temples that where the
the Pharaohs are building them

314
00:19:24,850 --> 00:19:28,170
unto themselves.
There are two smaller temples

315
00:19:28,170 --> 00:19:33,010
Karnak and Medina taboo which
are almost identical.

316
00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:39,410
You newbly said about these
ancient Egyptian temples and

317
00:19:39,410 --> 00:19:43,170
their rights said in doubt.
Latter Day Saints require no

318
00:19:43,170 --> 00:19:46,950
explanation.
So when you go through those

319
00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:50,350
temples and the reliefs and what
you're instructed to do room by

320
00:19:50,350 --> 00:19:53,230
room, you're washed, you're
annointed your clothes, and you

321
00:19:53,230 --> 00:19:55,750
go room by room and you make
progressive covenants.

322
00:19:57,470 --> 00:20:00,510
Then you pass through the veil
in these ancient temples and you

323
00:20:00,510 --> 00:20:01,950
go sit down on the throne with
God.

324
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:07,550
I mean, there are accompanying
pictures of that, that piece of

325
00:20:07,550 --> 00:20:10,110
date, so.
I think Karnak and where I see

326
00:20:10,110 --> 00:20:13,150
Karnak, I think of that.
And anyway across the Nile river

327
00:20:13,150 --> 00:20:16,670
from Karnak is thieves.
They don't know exactly where

328
00:20:16,670 --> 00:20:20,870
they were discovered because the
Italian guy Antonio La Bolo, who

329
00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:28,150
was in exile from France, well,
in exile because of I think,

330
00:20:28,150 --> 00:20:32,670
revolutionary activities.
He was working like this is a

331
00:20:32,670 --> 00:20:37,520
crazy thing, history.
And we, and this is probably

332
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,560
good preface to the whole
discussion, nobody alive at the

333
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,960
time of Joseph Smith knew
anything about ancient Egypt.

334
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,880
They had no knowledge of how to
read hieroglyphic.

335
00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,240
None.
Even the native Egyptians you

336
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,360
know, that walk past these
Egyptian ruins and look at the

337
00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,200
hieroglyphs and think what what
that says.

338
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,820
Well, yeah, and and it's not.
Too long before or too long

339
00:21:04,820 --> 00:21:10,020
before Joseph Smith, that
Napoleon and his crew roll up on

340
00:21:10,020 --> 00:21:13,300
the Rosetta Stone and everyone
thinks, oh, we got this Rosetta

341
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:15,700
Stone and and that that's how
they translated it.

342
00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:19,540
That was a process that did not
come overnight.

343
00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:23,540
So Champoleon, who was the
Frenchman who cracked the

344
00:21:23,540 --> 00:21:26,660
Rosetta Stone, was a
contemporary of Joseph Smith.

345
00:21:27,340 --> 00:21:30,700
But even his ideas did not get
traction until 1850.

346
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,440
Well after.
So when we talked about what

347
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:37,880
Joseph Smith was attempting to
do with this Egyptian stuff and

348
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,200
isn't an interesting, so
Napoleon, the result of

349
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:46,360
Napoleon's campaigns into Egypt,
was the rediscovery of all these

350
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:51,680
Egyptian antiquities and brought
all of this to our attention.

351
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:58,200
But Joseph Smith was at least 10
to 20 years ahead of the curve

352
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,220
and getting it what this.
Meant and the true significance

353
00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:03,820
in regard to the restoration.
Anyway.

354
00:22:06,340 --> 00:22:16,620
So on this West Bank of the Nile
discovered he discovered 11

355
00:22:16,620 --> 00:22:20,260
mummies, and those red dots
represent where they possibly

356
00:22:20,260 --> 00:22:23,580
were.
He had over 100 men working,

357
00:22:23,780 --> 00:22:26,980
several hundred men working for
him excavating, so he couldn't

358
00:22:26,980 --> 00:22:29,580
keep track of exactly where
these eleven were discovered.

359
00:22:30,330 --> 00:22:36,050
He died, and the mummies were
shipped to New York City to sell

360
00:22:36,050 --> 00:22:37,890
them to anybody who would pay
the appropriate sum.

361
00:22:38,170 --> 00:22:41,890
The proceeds were sent to
Livolo's HEIRS, Chandler

362
00:22:41,890 --> 00:22:44,610
required.
Can I ask a quick question real

363
00:22:44,610 --> 00:22:47,090
quick?
And this is going to sound kind

364
00:22:47,090 --> 00:22:49,450
of silly, and it and it may be
one of those things we just

365
00:22:49,450 --> 00:22:53,290
don't have an answer to.
Do we know how the mummies were

366
00:22:53,290 --> 00:22:55,650
positioned in relation to
Karnac?

367
00:22:58,650 --> 00:23:01,530
Oh, which direction They were
lying and that sort of thing.

368
00:23:01,650 --> 00:23:04,770
Yeah.
No, for I don't.

369
00:23:04,930 --> 00:23:06,130
I'm not thinking.
But as they don't even know

370
00:23:06,130 --> 00:23:09,010
where they were found.
So I mean what they were doing

371
00:23:09,010 --> 00:23:13,210
and and Antonio La Bolo's day
wasn't archaeology.

372
00:23:13,210 --> 00:23:14,570
It was grave.
It was looting.

373
00:23:14,690 --> 00:23:17,730
Right, right.
They weren't keeping the best

374
00:23:17,730 --> 00:23:20,210
notes, they were just trying to
smuggle out the antiquities.

375
00:23:20,650 --> 00:23:22,010
Yeah, they weren't keeping any
notes.

376
00:23:22,010 --> 00:23:25,490
I mean, the whole idea of
archaeology wasn't even a study

377
00:23:25,490 --> 00:23:31,760
until the 20th century.
Yeah.

378
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,200
People forget archaeology as a
quote.

379
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,840
Science has only been around for
about 100 years, right.

380
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,880
And I'm always fascinated when
the archaeologists go, well,

381
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,400
this is how it is and I'm like,
really?

382
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,680
That's how it is.
Are you sure?

383
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:53,360
I mean 100 years it it it's
almost arrogant that the

384
00:23:53,360 --> 00:23:57,060
position that we take that.
Oh well, we know the breadth of

385
00:23:57,060 --> 00:24:00,900
human history in the last 100
years, so.

386
00:24:01,980 --> 00:24:05,340
My experience has been that the
the scientists, the

387
00:24:05,380 --> 00:24:08,300
archaeologists and the scholars
who are at the leading edge of

388
00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:12,420
the science are the ones most
open to change because of the

389
00:24:12,420 --> 00:24:15,140
most educated, and they know
exactly what they don't know.

390
00:24:15,740 --> 00:24:18,580
Right.
It's the people who are, you

391
00:24:18,580 --> 00:24:21,340
know, two or three rows back,
you know, teaching in the school

392
00:24:21,340 --> 00:24:27,330
systems that become these.
Hardened disciples of whatever

393
00:24:27,770 --> 00:24:31,170
is currently popular.
Even since you and I talked

394
00:24:31,170 --> 00:24:35,010
about a Book of Mormon evidences
months ago, there have been 2

395
00:24:35,010 --> 00:24:40,250
brand new Lidar studies in Meso
America with the exact same

396
00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:42,730
results.
Northern Guatemala and another

397
00:24:42,730 --> 00:24:48,090
place on the Yucatan, just the
one in northern Guatemala.

398
00:24:48,250 --> 00:24:53,650
They found 140 miles of highways
connecting like these seven

399
00:24:53,650 --> 00:24:55,810
cities.
So we're much more advanced,

400
00:24:55,810 --> 00:25:00,490
much earlier than anybody
thought the Mayan is and they

401
00:25:00,490 --> 00:25:02,010
have, they're revising
everything.

402
00:25:02,370 --> 00:25:04,010
Yep.
Everything anyway.

403
00:25:04,490 --> 00:25:07,010
And it it'll take probably a
decade for all that information

404
00:25:07,010 --> 00:25:09,130
trickle into the textbooks.
You know we're.

405
00:25:09,370 --> 00:25:10,810
Teaching our kids in the
schools, right?

406
00:25:11,610 --> 00:25:16,370
So Chandler gets these mummies.
In 1833, he claimed that Labola

407
00:25:16,370 --> 00:25:19,250
was his uncle, but that hasn't
been confirmed.

408
00:25:19,370 --> 00:25:21,010
It might have just been adding
to his story.

409
00:25:21,010 --> 00:25:23,610
You never know, right?
Gotcha.

410
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:27,270
Here's the 1st and the coolest
criticism.

411
00:25:29,070 --> 00:25:32,390
So, so real quick, but before we
dive into the to the.

412
00:25:32,390 --> 00:25:35,150
Criticism.
Let me ask you this.

413
00:25:36,910 --> 00:25:41,070
Joseph Smith receives this
papyra from the mummies.

414
00:25:42,590 --> 00:25:44,710
He then goes to work to
translate them.

415
00:25:45,310 --> 00:25:48,190
He gets the Book of Abraham, the
Book of Moses from.

416
00:25:49,390 --> 00:25:52,830
No, the Book of Moses did not
come from the pirate.

417
00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:55,830
Really.
And where we'll talk about that

418
00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:58,910
Book of Moses.
Oh, I love that book even more

419
00:25:58,910 --> 00:26:02,430
than Abraham.
Book of Moses was the result of

420
00:26:02,430 --> 00:26:05,030
his the Joseph Smith translation
of the Bible.

421
00:26:05,550 --> 00:26:06,710
OK.
All right.

422
00:26:06,990 --> 00:26:10,750
Now he now this is significant.
He called the book of Moses a

423
00:26:10,750 --> 00:26:14,110
translation.
What was he translating?

424
00:26:15,150 --> 00:26:19,510
The Bible, Buckus.
He wasn't translating anything.

425
00:26:20,550 --> 00:26:24,320
It was straight up revelation.
That he received while studying

426
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,080
the Old Testament.
All that stuff was given to him.

427
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,800
Pure revelation.
Why would he, Why would he call

428
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,440
it a translation?
That gives us insight, very

429
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,480
significant insight into what he
was doing with the Book of

430
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,640
Mormon and with the Book of
Abraham, it was less.

431
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:45,680
He didn't translate like a
scholar would, you know, take

432
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,560
one word, translate the word and
write it down.

433
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,930
That's not.
He wasn't a scholarly

434
00:26:49,930 --> 00:26:51,810
translator.
He did not have those abilities.

435
00:26:51,810 --> 00:26:54,970
He wanted to be.
They tried to study he and his

436
00:26:54,970 --> 00:26:56,490
counterparts.
They studied Egyptian.

437
00:26:56,650 --> 00:26:59,330
They studied Hebrew.
They wanted to learn Egyptian.

438
00:26:59,330 --> 00:27:01,090
Which is weird because nobody
knew it then.

439
00:27:02,370 --> 00:27:07,930
But so when he calls the Book of
Abraham a translation and the

440
00:27:07,930 --> 00:27:10,970
Book of Mormon a translation, we
know that he had gold plates,

441
00:27:10,970 --> 00:27:13,890
But he wasn't translating from
the characters on the plates.

442
00:27:13,890 --> 00:27:17,490
He was translating from the Urem
thumb or the Sears stone.

443
00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:21,140
Gotcha.
Yeah.

444
00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:26,700
So, so real quick, what happens
to those papyri after Joseph's

445
00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:31,940
done with them?
Oh, I love this story.

446
00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:38,340
So when they first got them,
there were 4 mummies, presumably

447
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:44,740
4 scrolls, and there were some.
And of course they are thousands

448
00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:47,720
of years old.
And so the edges of them have

449
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,760
become worn and ragged.
And in it, in an attempt to

450
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,520
preserve those ragged edges,
they cut them off and glued them

451
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,600
to parchment, as you can see in
this photograph.

452
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,680
This is an actual photograph of
the Joseph Smith papari in

453
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,360
possession of the church.
So you can see where it's worn.

454
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:10,120
And they glued it, you know, as
best they could in the 1830s, to

455
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:11,600
this paper to try and preserve
it.

456
00:28:12,410 --> 00:28:16,010
So what they inadvertently did
was divide the collect, divide

457
00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:20,410
the whole collection into two.
They had the large scrolls that

458
00:28:20,410 --> 00:28:24,130
were still intact, they had
these trimmings and they had the

459
00:28:24,130 --> 00:28:28,770
mummies.
After his death, his mother,

460
00:28:28,770 --> 00:28:32,850
Lucy Mack, continued to show
them to people in order to try

461
00:28:32,850 --> 00:28:36,610
and earn a living.
Upon her death they went to

462
00:28:36,610 --> 00:28:40,010
Emma.
Upon Emma's death, her second

463
00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:44,010
husband, Louis Biteman.
Sold them to some guy in Saint

464
00:28:44,010 --> 00:28:49,050
Louis whose name I forget.
And then he subsequently sold

465
00:28:49,050 --> 00:28:53,010
them to the Chicago the I think
it's the Woodward Museum in

466
00:28:53,010 --> 00:28:57,090
Chicago, but apparently not all
of the collection.

467
00:28:57,290 --> 00:29:01,050
He kept these trimmed sections
that had been glued to parchment

468
00:29:01,050 --> 00:29:06,090
and framed.
He kept those, and this picture

469
00:29:06,090 --> 00:29:08,410
is of one of those.
And those are called the Joseph

470
00:29:08,410 --> 00:29:10,770
Snip Up all right.
The bulk of the collection that

471
00:29:10,770 --> 00:29:15,730
he sold to the Woodward Museum,
the four mummies and the bulk of

472
00:29:15,730 --> 00:29:20,050
the four scrolls ultimately went
up in smoke in the Great Chicago

473
00:29:20,050 --> 00:29:22,810
Flyer of 1871.
Right.

474
00:29:23,770 --> 00:29:28,650
So, so and and the reason I
think that's important is to to

475
00:29:28,650 --> 00:29:34,810
showcase the idea that people
are coming up with with their

476
00:29:34,810 --> 00:29:38,630
criticisms.
Based off of incomplete data.

477
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:43,750
And that's calculated.
I mean, that's my question to

478
00:29:43,750 --> 00:29:45,190
people.
They're not telling you

479
00:29:45,190 --> 00:29:47,510
everything.
Is it because they don't know

480
00:29:47,510 --> 00:29:50,230
everything or because they don't
want you to know everything,

481
00:29:51,270 --> 00:29:53,270
right.
And so here, This is why this is

482
00:29:53,270 --> 00:29:57,870
criticism #1.
This is for people who are not

483
00:29:57,870 --> 00:29:59,630
prepared or maybe who want to
leave.

484
00:29:59,830 --> 00:30:03,790
This is the perfect excuse
because guess the perfect test

485
00:30:04,110 --> 00:30:07,600
of Joseph Smith's claim to.
And being a prophet is this.

486
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,520
He claimed to have translated
the book of Abraham from these

487
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,240
papyri.
Lo and behold, in 1967 the

488
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,560
Metropolitan Museum of Art
discovered them, these these

489
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,040
remnants and gifted them to the
church quite kindly.

490
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,840
I mean there was there was
nothing nefarious about it and

491
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,040
the church didn't hide that fact
at all.

492
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,400
The Church made them available
to every for everyone to see, to

493
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,960
look at and to translate,
including you and Italy.

494
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,920
And here's the one thing that in
going over this that I had taken

495
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,960
for granted this whole time
prior to the discovery of these,

496
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:44,840
we'll call them the Joseph Smith
Papyre.

497
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:50,720
We did not have any evidence
whatsoever that Joseph Smith

498
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:55,000
ever really possessed any
Egyptian artifacts or scrolls.

499
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,760
We had none.
Now we do.

500
00:30:59,550 --> 00:31:03,630
He really did have, he really
did have these, that story.

501
00:31:03,870 --> 00:31:06,470
That part of the story is true,
and that's very exciting.

502
00:31:06,910 --> 00:31:10,390
And the church itself published
an article in 1968 as soon as

503
00:31:10,390 --> 00:31:15,390
they could about the discovery
of these and okay.

504
00:31:16,150 --> 00:31:18,990
So here's the test.
Finally, we're going to

505
00:31:18,990 --> 00:31:21,990
translate these scrolls that
Joseph Smith had.

506
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:26,460
Because now we know how to read
Egyptian hieroglyph, and we're

507
00:31:26,460 --> 00:31:29,540
going to see if he was a prophet
or a liar.

508
00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:32,860
And what do you think they
translated?

509
00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:34,700
And they all agreed, You
nibbling everybody.

510
00:31:36,260 --> 00:31:41,260
It's exactly what you would
expect from a mummy.

511
00:31:41,580 --> 00:31:46,380
Their funeral texts, burial
texts, the Book of Breathings

512
00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:49,220
and the Book of the Dead, the
two of them.

513
00:31:50,420 --> 00:31:54,380
And there are other examples,
and not very many of the Book of

514
00:31:54,380 --> 00:32:00,060
Breathings, by the way, which
were all discovered after this.

515
00:32:01,140 --> 00:32:03,700
And in terms of their
archaeological dates, they're

516
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:06,980
all later than this.
This snippet we have of the Book

517
00:32:06,980 --> 00:32:08,980
of Breathings is the oldest one
of existence.

518
00:32:09,620 --> 00:32:13,380
That's pretty cool, yeah.
You know, and and I think before

519
00:32:13,380 --> 00:32:16,260
we jump into the criticisms, I
think it's important that we.

520
00:32:16,670 --> 00:32:19,550
We mentioned what the Book of
the Dead was, right?

521
00:32:19,910 --> 00:32:23,190
Especially So the Book of the
Dead was a book that was

522
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:27,110
supposed to be like a how to
manual, if I understand

523
00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:30,750
correctly, on how to navigate
the the the afterworld.

524
00:32:30,990 --> 00:32:32,990
The.
Yeah, the Afterworld, right.

525
00:32:33,230 --> 00:32:35,910
You're going to encounter this
and then you're going to do

526
00:32:35,910 --> 00:32:38,390
that, right?
And then you're going to go to

527
00:32:38,390 --> 00:32:40,310
here and then you're going to do
this.

528
00:32:40,770 --> 00:32:45,010
Now, it there are some striking
parallels to the LDS endowment,

529
00:32:45,010 --> 00:32:47,690
I should say, in those in that
book.

530
00:32:48,210 --> 00:32:50,890
But nonetheless it is somewhat
different.

531
00:32:50,890 --> 00:32:56,090
So people have gone down to this
idea that that well, it's not

532
00:32:56,090 --> 00:32:58,690
exact, so it can't be correct,
right.

533
00:32:58,690 --> 00:33:00,170
And I'm sure we'll cover all
that.

534
00:33:00,170 --> 00:33:01,890
But well, I I was very
interested.

535
00:33:01,890 --> 00:33:04,970
I I've read through both.
And by the way the Book of the

536
00:33:04,970 --> 00:33:07,690
Dead and the Book of readings,
they're not like.

537
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,240
Perfectly accurate reprintings
of one another, right?

538
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,520
They're all a little bit
different because they were all

539
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,880
handwritten by a priest.
Scribes who would take

540
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,760
liberties.
And some scribes are better than

541
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,520
others, and the handwriting is
better than others.

542
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,960
So we'll see that it wasn't we.
This is another case of

543
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,570
presentism.
Because of copyright and

544
00:33:28,570 --> 00:33:30,650
exactness, we can't steal
people's words.

545
00:33:30,650 --> 00:33:34,370
We can't misrepresent words.
We fight over articles in the

546
00:33:34,370 --> 00:33:36,770
King James Version, or any
biblical version for that

547
00:33:36,770 --> 00:33:39,690
matter.
I mean, we're very precise about

548
00:33:39,690 --> 00:33:42,650
the printed material.
In ancient Egypt, that wasn't

549
00:33:42,650 --> 00:33:45,490
necessarily the case.
I mean, they were as careful and

550
00:33:45,490 --> 00:33:47,530
as cautious as anyone of their
time.

551
00:33:48,770 --> 00:33:52,250
And as one scholar put it, it's
not that the Egyptians were bad

552
00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:56,830
at at keeping things.
What they were, their problem

553
00:33:56,830 --> 00:33:59,070
was they kept everything and
started.

554
00:33:59,230 --> 00:34:03,750
And so their religion just
continued to proliferate until

555
00:34:04,230 --> 00:34:07,870
King Tut's dad Akhenaten.
When he came to power, he

556
00:34:07,870 --> 00:34:14,190
decided he was going to return
them to monotheism, to to the

557
00:34:14,190 --> 00:34:21,270
sun God, and he was hated.
They hated him because the

558
00:34:21,270 --> 00:34:23,630
pantheon of gods was big
business.

559
00:34:24,420 --> 00:34:28,300
For the priest cast and for the
idol makers, you know he was

560
00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:29,780
killing their business.
Anyway.

561
00:34:29,780 --> 00:34:36,260
He, I think he was pharaoh for
about 7 years, had seven or

562
00:34:36,260 --> 00:34:41,340
eight or nine kids, King Tut
being the next heir and when he

563
00:34:41,340 --> 00:34:43,300
died they erased him.
In.

564
00:34:44,260 --> 00:34:46,500
Fact, it wasn't until this
century that we even knew he

565
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:51,100
existed and he had to restore
him that he was reviled for

566
00:34:51,100 --> 00:34:53,020
that.
That's crazy anyway.

567
00:34:54,090 --> 00:34:55,889
Very interesting stuff.
All right.

568
00:34:55,889 --> 00:34:58,370
So I think that answers the
question of what it is, where it

569
00:34:58,370 --> 00:35:00,410
came from and what happened to
it, right.

570
00:35:00,810 --> 00:35:04,970
It's it's it's something that
comes out of Egypt.

571
00:35:05,770 --> 00:35:09,290
Joseph manages to put the money
together with all the Saints,

572
00:35:09,410 --> 00:35:12,650
they. $82,000 at today's money.
Right.

573
00:35:12,730 --> 00:35:16,890
And and keep in mind, this is a
time when when men and women,

574
00:35:17,290 --> 00:35:20,490
especially the sisters, were
grinding up their plates for the

575
00:35:20,490 --> 00:35:24,230
mortar.
Interior mortar of the of the

576
00:35:24,230 --> 00:35:27,310
Kirtland temple to to make it
shine a little bit right.

577
00:35:28,110 --> 00:35:30,430
These are these are poor and
destitute people.

578
00:35:31,110 --> 00:35:35,270
So I don't know.
You know, I think I don't think

579
00:35:35,270 --> 00:35:38,150
anyone has the the answers.
I'm sure Joseph saw him and

580
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:42,230
recognized their worth and then
had to go raise funds for that.

581
00:35:42,590 --> 00:35:47,630
Nonetheless, Joseph knew they
were important and had to be

582
00:35:47,630 --> 00:35:50,110
translated.
When you look what came from

583
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:52,710
them, you can't argue that.
Right.

584
00:35:52,710 --> 00:35:56,190
Absolutely priceless, right.
Which is why it's called the

585
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:58,950
Pearl of Great Price.
Yep, Yep.

586
00:35:59,030 --> 00:36:04,470
Priceless.
Joseph dies, the the the mummies

587
00:36:04,470 --> 00:36:11,110
go eventually through bitumen
and what not to the the Chicago

588
00:36:11,110 --> 00:36:16,470
Museum, the the Great Fire.
Chicago Fire happens, and most

589
00:36:16,550 --> 00:36:19,430
everything, except with the
exception of a few things, goes

590
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:21,070
up in smoke.
Correct.

591
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:27,800
So and and out of this, the Book
of Abraham details Abraham's

592
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,240
time in Egypt as well as other
crucial events.

593
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,240
So.
So let's let's talk about some

594
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:38,520
of the criticisms now.
So the biggest one, and the one

595
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,880
I mentioned to my friend that
threw him was, you know, that

596
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,920
Joseph failed the test because
we now have the proprietors who

597
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,280
translated him, and it's not the
Book of Abraham.

598
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,200
I guess Joseph Smith is a
failure.

599
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:55,900
What's the rest of the story?
Joseph Smith had in his

600
00:36:55,900 --> 00:37:01,940
possession three or four or more
long scrolls, plus the

601
00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:06,620
hypocephalus, the the round the
2nd facsimile right, which is an

602
00:37:06,620 --> 00:37:09,620
amulet of plaster, and they
found lots of those.

603
00:37:10,220 --> 00:37:13,260
Of these original materials,
only a handful of the fragments

604
00:37:13,580 --> 00:37:17,540
fragments, an estimated 10%,
were recovered at the

605
00:37:17,540 --> 00:37:20,260
Metropolitan Museum.
So those frayed edges that were

606
00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:23,370
trimmed off.
Mounted and put in, put in

607
00:37:23,370 --> 00:37:26,410
frames is all that was left
there.

608
00:37:26,650 --> 00:37:29,330
There's a wonderful graphic I
want that's it's quite

609
00:37:29,330 --> 00:37:31,490
informative.
The majority of the papyri

610
00:37:31,490 --> 00:37:34,610
remains lost and it has likely
been destroyed.

611
00:37:35,250 --> 00:37:39,650
Critics who claim that all or a
majority of the papyri possessed

612
00:37:39,650 --> 00:37:45,770
by Joseph Smith are mistaken.
As expected, the mummies were

613
00:37:45,770 --> 00:37:47,970
buried with common funerary
text.

614
00:37:47,970 --> 00:37:51,960
But.
As archaeologist John G points

615
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,720
out, Egyptian priests of the
time were often buried with a

616
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:59,880
variety of different texts, all
written on the same for pirates

617
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:03,560
roll one after the other.
We call that today cutting and

618
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,920
pasting.
They would do that.

619
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:09,800
They would cut and paste those
vignettes.

620
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,000
But we call facsimiles now.
So here's this is the most

621
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,520
interesting graphic I've seen on
it.

622
00:38:17,780 --> 00:38:22,300
It represents the four scrolls
that he had in his possession.

623
00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:27,620
We know their names.
The Scroll of Whore.

624
00:38:27,980 --> 00:38:32,140
It was 13 centimeters wide and
about 10 feet in length.

625
00:38:34,540 --> 00:38:38,140
And those scraps.
So those brown colored pieces,

626
00:38:38,780 --> 00:38:42,980
those are what we have.
That's the Joseph Smith Papyri

627
00:38:42,980 --> 00:38:47,500
123.
And that Facts of the Facsility

628
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:51,340
#1.
So we have a very small sample

629
00:38:51,340 --> 00:39:00,340
size. 10% is the estimate, 10%.
So if you were just placing bets

630
00:39:00,340 --> 00:39:05,660
in Vegas, 90% that this is not
what he translated from.

631
00:39:07,460 --> 00:39:10,540
We'll talk more about that.
But the other three, the top,

632
00:39:10,540 --> 00:39:14,180
the Scroll of horror, was where
we get the first facsimile.

633
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,960
We don't even know if the whole
scroll was the book of Readings

634
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:25,400
or if it was something else.
The Scroll of Semenies, 32

635
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:30,240
centimeters wide, much wider.
Early accounts indicate that

636
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:34,200
this scroll may have been
extended twice as long, as shown

637
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,440
here, it could have been 20 feet
long.

638
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,080
Then the third scroll, Nufia
Loop, again, very wide, 10 feet

639
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,620
long.
And the last one we have nothing

640
00:39:50,860 --> 00:39:54,620
of and we have the hypocephalus.
So let me ask you this.

641
00:39:54,620 --> 00:39:58,100
Can the scroll of horror, the
scroll of seminists?

642
00:39:58,980 --> 00:40:01,340
I'm only even pretend to
pronounce the third.

643
00:40:01,340 --> 00:40:05,580
Or the That's a tough one.
But but have have those been

644
00:40:05,580 --> 00:40:11,870
found with any other mummies?
Well, no, because the names of

645
00:40:11,870 --> 00:40:14,470
these scrolls are the names of
the mummies that they belong to.

646
00:40:14,510 --> 00:40:15,870
They were mentioned by them,
right?

647
00:40:16,710 --> 00:40:20,830
So they're unique to that mummy.
Now inevitably they were cutting

648
00:40:20,830 --> 00:40:24,670
and pasting from something else,
as we will see, but we we have

649
00:40:24,670 --> 00:40:27,630
no idea of really knowing
exactly what those were, their

650
00:40:27,630 --> 00:40:30,470
ideas.
But this, this graphic is

651
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:34,990
probably the most insightful
thing I've seen in regard to

652
00:40:34,990 --> 00:40:39,630
this issue and this.
It's showing the big lie.

653
00:40:39,890 --> 00:40:44,530
That critics want you to
hoodwink you with that all we

654
00:40:44,530 --> 00:40:48,970
have, all of his, we have all of
his paparai and he just he

655
00:40:48,970 --> 00:40:50,850
really fouled up and he's just
making it up.

656
00:40:51,050 --> 00:40:58,450
We don't know that John Gee,
eyewitness accounts from Joseph

657
00:40:58,450 --> 00:41:02,690
Smith state agree that the Book
of Mormon, the Book of Abraham

658
00:41:02,690 --> 00:41:05,890
was on the long roll.
People who saw it.

659
00:41:05,890 --> 00:41:07,650
So yeah he was working on the
long one.

660
00:41:08,830 --> 00:41:10,470
Maybe the second one, the 20
foot long one.

661
00:41:11,630 --> 00:41:14,670
Through museum documents we can
corroborate that the long roll

662
00:41:14,670 --> 00:41:18,510
was sold to the Chicago museum.
Unfortunately, it was destroyed

663
00:41:18,510 --> 00:41:22,550
by fire in 1871.
The small portion on the outside

664
00:41:22,550 --> 00:41:25,590
of the roll seems to have been
cut off and mounted for its

665
00:41:25,590 --> 00:41:28,550
protection.
It is always the outermost edge

666
00:41:28,550 --> 00:41:31,870
of a scroll that is damaged the
most, and Joseph must have felt

667
00:41:31,870 --> 00:41:34,790
that this damaged beast needed
preservation efforts because

668
00:41:34,790 --> 00:41:36,950
this part of the scroll was
glued to paper.

669
00:41:37,620 --> 00:41:38,980
That dates back to the Kirtland
period.

670
00:41:38,980 --> 00:41:41,580
They know where that paper came
from, so it was done very early

671
00:41:41,580 --> 00:41:47,220
on.
John G again, according to a

672
00:41:47,220 --> 00:41:50,860
newfound Mormon, non Mormon
eyewitness account, The Book of

673
00:41:50,860 --> 00:41:55,140
Abram seems to have been on a
very long and completely intact

674
00:41:55,260 --> 00:41:57,740
role.
So it's probably could have been

675
00:41:57,740 --> 00:42:01,860
the 4th one and therefore not
even on the same scroll as the

676
00:42:01,860 --> 00:42:04,380
fragments we have.
Let me pause here.

677
00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:08,070
The reason critics like to
presume that Joseph Smith was

678
00:42:08,070 --> 00:42:12,030
translating from these fragments
is because that first fragment

679
00:42:12,030 --> 00:42:17,350
contains facsimile #1.
And so they.

680
00:42:17,470 --> 00:42:21,590
Oh, see, so that was the one.
Well, if that's true, where are

681
00:42:21,590 --> 00:42:26,710
the other two facsimiles?
You know, but we'll we'll talk

682
00:42:26,710 --> 00:42:28,670
more about that.
They were cutting and pasting

683
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:30,270
text.
They're also cutting and pasting

684
00:42:30,270 --> 00:42:33,150
pictures and there is
significant precedent of them

685
00:42:33,150 --> 00:42:35,670
moving.
But then yet the the the

686
00:42:35,670 --> 00:42:39,710
drawings around having nothing
to do with the adjacent text, It

687
00:42:40,070 --> 00:42:42,190
was like decoration into some
extent.

688
00:42:44,870 --> 00:42:47,030
And this in turn means that none
of the fragments of the Joseph

689
00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:51,190
Smith prior that we have is from
the same scroll as the Book of

690
00:42:51,190 --> 00:42:53,950
Abraham.
And if none of the fragments

691
00:42:53,950 --> 00:42:57,390
that we have comes from the same
scroll as the Book of Abraham,

692
00:42:57,710 --> 00:42:59,910
then the fact that none of the
text on the matches the Book of

693
00:42:59,910 --> 00:43:03,340
Abraham is not a problem.
Critics of the Church have

694
00:43:03,340 --> 00:43:06,980
presumed that the Book of Abram
must be on the fragments that we

695
00:43:06,980 --> 00:43:09,180
currently have.
Why they assumed that is beyond

696
00:43:09,180 --> 00:43:12,180
me.
Historical evidence is against

697
00:43:12,380 --> 00:43:17,420
such a conclusion, and he goes
on.

698
00:43:17,420 --> 00:43:20,820
There is still more evidence
that Joseph Smith had additional

699
00:43:20,820 --> 00:43:23,780
propiry edition.
Propirous documents almost

700
00:43:23,780 --> 00:43:27,820
universally pertain to only one
individual, one document per

701
00:43:27,820 --> 00:43:30,340
individual.
So from an Egyptological

702
00:43:30,340 --> 00:43:32,540
perspective, how many propyary
do we know that Joseph Smith

703
00:43:32,540 --> 00:43:35,020
had?
We know that there was a Book of

704
00:43:35,020 --> 00:43:39,100
Breathing Belongs to Whore, Book
of the Dead belonging to Tara

705
00:43:39,100 --> 00:43:42,940
Shitmin, Book of the Dead
belonging to nefernoob

706
00:43:43,740 --> 00:43:47,780
Hyposylephus, belonging to
Shayshank, and Document

707
00:43:47,780 --> 00:43:49,540
belonging to Amantatep, the son
of four.

708
00:43:50,140 --> 00:43:52,740
Here we have documents from at
least five different

709
00:43:52,740 --> 00:43:55,780
individuals.
If we have all the propyre

710
00:43:55,780 --> 00:43:57,100
Joseph Smith had.
Where?

711
00:43:57,100 --> 00:44:01,110
We might ask?
Our facsimile is 2 and three the

712
00:44:01,110 --> 00:44:05,310
role belonging to Aman hotel or
all the strange vignettes which

713
00:44:05,310 --> 00:44:08,470
those who saw the Propari now
who describe if there are

714
00:44:08,470 --> 00:44:13,190
documents we do not have by what
clairvoyance do critics proclaim

715
00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:15,990
what was or was not on them.
They don't.

716
00:44:16,830 --> 00:44:23,350
That's it's a biased presumption
which brings us to this topic we

717
00:44:23,350 --> 00:44:26,920
talked about earlier.
Joseph referred also referred to

718
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,440
the Book of Moses as a
translation, knowing full well

719
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,040
he didn't translate it in the
sense of transcribing it from an

720
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,000
original document.
The only eye witness to the

721
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:40,120
translation process to describe
it was Joseph Smith's scribe

722
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,440
Warren Parrish, who claimed
after he left the church.

723
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:50,040
Famously I have sat by his
Joseph side and pinned down the

724
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,960
translation of the Egyptian
hieroglyphics as he claimed to

725
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,720
receive it.
By direct inspiration from

726
00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:05,000
heaven.
Now if that is true, none of the

727
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,600
squirrels had to have the Book
of Abraham up technically.

728
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,720
So then the question is, well,
how do we know?

729
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,760
I mean, let's assume for the
sake of discussion that none of

730
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,000
the scrolls had it.
He was just receiving revelation

731
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,320
like he did for the Book of
Moses.

732
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,480
How do we evaluate then whether
the Book of Abraham is a

733
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,120
valuable or truthful text at
all?

734
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,120
OK, so can I play devil's
advocate that to that then real

735
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:30,680
quick?
You better sure.

736
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,720
So let's say someone says the
following Well, if it's not a

737
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:41,240
direct translation right, then
what were the purposes of the

738
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:43,160
mummies in the PIE ride to begin
with?

739
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,480
That's the same question that's
been asked about the Book of

740
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,640
Mormon and I.
My answer is twofold #1 The Book

741
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:59,040
of Mormon, The Plates of.
The golden appearing plates were

742
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,320
evidence that it was there
really was a physical record

743
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,240
which was critical.
But when it comes to the 8

744
00:46:08,240 --> 00:46:13,280
witnesses, the 11 witnesses of
the others who saw them, there

745
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,760
really was a record.
Did Joseph Smith have even begin

746
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,840
to have the ability to translate
any of that?

747
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,920
No, not as a scholar or as a
person.

748
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:27,760
Now, in terms of the and the
other reason was as a catalyst.

749
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,560
Joseph Smith never received
revelation without first asking

750
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,000
the question.
So he receives, I mean Section

751
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:42,320
132, celestial marriage was
given because he said what's

752
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,480
what's this whole thing about
Abraham having more than one

753
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:46,920
wife?
And God says, let me tell you

754
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,120
about eternal marriage.
Boom and just opens the

755
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,550
floodgates.
Right, So so here is with these

756
00:46:53,550 --> 00:46:57,510
mummies which came from Egypt,
and he knows that Abraham went

757
00:46:57,510 --> 00:47:01,510
down to Egypt.
Was that just a catalyst for him

758
00:47:01,510 --> 00:47:05,670
to start asking the questions To
which Book of Abraham was an

759
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:08,110
answer?
Nobody knows the answer to that

760
00:47:08,110 --> 00:47:12,510
question.
I'm inclined, because of what

761
00:47:12,510 --> 00:47:15,070
we're going to discuss in a
minute, to believe that he

762
00:47:15,070 --> 00:47:18,630
really did have Abrahamic
documents amongst those scrolls.

763
00:47:20,070 --> 00:47:25,070
Because because of evidence we
have found to demonstrate that

764
00:47:25,070 --> 00:47:28,710
the ancient Egyptians were very
well aware of who Abraham was,

765
00:47:29,510 --> 00:47:33,510
and that ancient Egyptian and
ancient extra canonical texts

766
00:47:33,950 --> 00:47:39,390
agree exactly with what Joseph
Smith gave us in our Book of

767
00:47:39,390 --> 00:47:42,110
Abraham when the rest of the
world had no clue.

768
00:47:43,390 --> 00:47:47,910
Yeah, so that's exciting stuff.
Well, in the proof of this would

769
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:50,980
really be in.
Later, when we get down to the

770
00:47:50,980 --> 00:47:56,100
home run section of things right
is that, you know, regardless of

771
00:47:56,100 --> 00:47:59,420
what somebody favors from a
historical standpoint of how

772
00:47:59,420 --> 00:48:05,300
Joseph Smith translated these
documents, the proof should be

773
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:11,740
found within the correlations
between Egyptian religious

774
00:48:11,740 --> 00:48:14,580
rights and Mormon religious
rights.

775
00:48:14,780 --> 00:48:16,140
Right.
Proof is in the pudding,

776
00:48:16,140 --> 00:48:17,140
ultimately.
Yep.

777
00:48:17,850 --> 00:48:20,970
I mean, let's let's just assume
he he got it out of thin air

778
00:48:20,970 --> 00:48:23,890
like he did the book of Moses.
What he gave us, how did he, how

779
00:48:23,890 --> 00:48:27,170
did he get those bullseyes, Not
just the text, but his

780
00:48:27,170 --> 00:48:31,450
interpretation of the
facsimiles, which, which is even

781
00:48:31,450 --> 00:48:35,050
trickier because most of the
facsimile, well, all of the

782
00:48:35,050 --> 00:48:37,810
interpretations of facsimiles.
He wasn't interpreting

783
00:48:37,810 --> 00:48:42,450
hieroglyphics, he was
interpreting ideagrams,

784
00:48:43,290 --> 00:48:46,250
representative images of the
significance of them, which

785
00:48:46,250 --> 00:48:49,260
don't always.
They're not as concrete as

786
00:48:49,260 --> 00:48:52,740
hieroglyphics.
All right, the criticism #2.

787
00:48:54,220 --> 00:48:56,860
What most people don't know is
that the original Joseph Smith

788
00:48:56,900 --> 00:49:02,100
papare, the trimmed edges, were
damaged, and one of those

789
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:06,620
damaged pieces was first
facsimile, the first ideogram.

790
00:49:07,180 --> 00:49:10,180
So when the image you're looking
at, the image on the left is the

791
00:49:10,220 --> 00:49:14,500
actual papare, you can see that
the head of the priest and the

792
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:18,620
hand of the priest are missing.
Yet in our facsimile, they're

793
00:49:18,620 --> 00:49:22,300
not.
So why is that?

794
00:49:23,580 --> 00:49:29,900
Well, when they when they
printed the the Book of Abraham,

795
00:49:30,620 --> 00:49:34,820
the person was his name.
Head Headlock Hedrick.

796
00:49:34,860 --> 00:49:36,940
Well it's I'll.
I have it in print later.

797
00:49:38,180 --> 00:49:40,900
They filled in the blanks just
so it would look nice, so it

798
00:49:40,900 --> 00:49:43,780
wouldn't look like a ripped up
papyrus.

799
00:49:44,220 --> 00:49:48,080
I got you.
Now, we do not know how much

800
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,480
part Joseph Smith had to do with
that or how much the printer

801
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,200
Hedrick, I think, was his name
had to do with it.

802
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,480
But there therein lies some
criticism that, you know, Joseph

803
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,480
Smith was so dumb he didn't even
know what these meant or how to

804
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,080
fill them in.
And therefore he's not a

805
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,720
prophet.
So we're going to talk about why

806
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:08,560
that.
You know what all that is?

807
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:17,210
One of the criticisms is?
The priest's head was not a bald

808
00:50:17,210 --> 00:50:20,010
headed priest.
It was the head of a Jackal, a

809
00:50:20,010 --> 00:50:24,330
mask that they wore because
there are other images and we're

810
00:50:24,330 --> 00:50:27,330
going to see a very interesting
one where he is wearing a mask

811
00:50:27,330 --> 00:50:33,170
of a Jackal, OK?
And that it was an embalming

812
00:50:33,170 --> 00:50:37,090
scene, that this wasn't a it
wasn't a sacrificial knife and

813
00:50:37,090 --> 00:50:41,610
that sort of thing.
John Gigan assumed for the sake

814
00:50:41,610 --> 00:50:44,010
of argument that the head on
facsimile, one figure is

815
00:50:44,010 --> 00:50:47,110
correct.
What are the implications of the

816
00:50:47,110 --> 00:50:51,630
figure being a bald man?
Shaving was a common feature of

817
00:50:51,630 --> 00:50:55,430
initiation into the priesthood
from the Old Kingdom through the

818
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:58,230
Roman period.
Since complete shaving with the

819
00:50:58,230 --> 00:51:03,310
head was another mark of the
male Isaac Votary and priest,

820
00:51:03,710 --> 00:51:06,150
the bald figure would then be a
priest.

821
00:51:06,550 --> 00:51:09,350
So there is historical precedent
for having a bald priest.

822
00:51:09,870 --> 00:51:11,270
How would Joseph Smith know
that?

823
00:51:12,930 --> 00:51:15,970
And assume on the other hand
that the head affects simile 1.

824
00:51:15,970 --> 00:51:19,490
Figure 3 is out of a Jackal.
We have representations of

825
00:51:19,490 --> 00:51:22,970
priest wearing masks.
One example of an actual mask

826
00:51:23,010 --> 00:51:25,370
literary accounts from non
Egyptians about a jiffy priest

827
00:51:25,370 --> 00:51:28,090
wearing masks.
Thus however the restoration is

828
00:51:28,090 --> 00:51:31,370
made, the individual shown
effect, Simile one figure 3 is a

829
00:51:31,370 --> 00:51:35,250
priest whether he's a baldy or
Jackal, and the entire question

830
00:51:35,250 --> 00:51:39,130
of which head should be on the
figure is moot so far as

831
00:51:39,130 --> 00:51:42,600
identifying the figure.
Identifying the figure is

832
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,800
concerned.
The entire debate has been a

833
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:50,000
waste of ink.
They're actually images and I

834
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:52,920
forgot to include when you're
putting this together, showing

835
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,760
this bald headed priest a
cutaway showing on the Jackal

836
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,840
mask.
So whether they wore the mask or

837
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,760
not, they were priests.
Then we get to the knife.

838
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,240
First.
There is the question as to

839
00:52:07,240 --> 00:52:09,800
whether the knife being held by
three could plausibly.

840
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,840
Have been in the original
vignette or illustration.

841
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,920
This is very interesting.
The existence of the knife has

842
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:20,600
been doubted by many because it
does not conform to what other

843
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:22,480
Egyptian papyri would lead us to
expect.

844
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,000
And so some Egyptologists have
denied the possibility that the

845
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:28,160
knife was original to this
illustration.

846
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:34,760
At least two different 19th
century eyewitnesses to this

847
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:39,440
scroll who examined the papyri,
including one who was not a

848
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,930
Latter day St.
Reported seeing quote a priest

849
00:52:42,930 --> 00:52:48,250
with a knife in his hand or a
man standing by him with a drawn

850
00:52:48,250 --> 00:52:51,650
knife.
So apparently when Joseph Smith

851
00:52:51,650 --> 00:52:56,770
had them, that part of the
school was still intact showing

852
00:52:56,770 --> 00:53:00,050
the knife.
The significance of this is that

853
00:53:00,050 --> 00:53:03,530
the presence of the knife in the
original papyrus has here been

854
00:53:03,530 --> 00:53:07,370
described by a non Mormon
witness, eyewitnesses whose

855
00:53:07,370 --> 00:53:09,890
description of the storage and
preservation pyro matches.

856
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,400
That of independent contemporary
accounts.

857
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:18,280
It also matches the description
another eyewitness made before

858
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:20,680
Ruben headlock.
Ruben Headlock was the one who

859
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:25,680
cut those those facsimiles who
had to be carved into wood to be

860
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,000
printed.
The fact that they're accurate

861
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:33,200
at all is miraculous.
This gives us two independent

862
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,480
eyewitness to the presence of a
knife on facsimile One,

863
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,080
regardless of what we might
otherwise think.

864
00:53:40,770 --> 00:53:42,010
So here's the image of the
knife.

865
00:53:42,970 --> 00:53:46,970
Furthermore, the Crescent shape
of this knife is consistent with

866
00:53:46,970 --> 00:53:51,770
the shape of ancient Egyptian
Flint knives, which were used

867
00:53:51,770 --> 00:53:57,650
from prehistoric times to the
Middle Kingdom, among other

868
00:53:57,650 --> 00:54:01,170
activities, ritual slaughter and
execration rites.

869
00:54:01,610 --> 00:54:04,290
This reinforces the likelihood
that the knife was original to

870
00:54:04,290 --> 00:54:07,410
the scene.
So here's that knife in an

871
00:54:07,410 --> 00:54:10,140
actual Egyptian.
Representation.

872
00:54:11,020 --> 00:54:13,660
There's the actual Flint knife
up there.

873
00:54:13,660 --> 00:54:16,460
You can see how it was chipped
away to sharpen the blade.

874
00:54:16,900 --> 00:54:18,540
Wow.
Just like ancient Mesoamericans.

875
00:54:18,540 --> 00:54:24,540
That's crazy.
Criticism #3 This is the

876
00:54:24,540 --> 00:54:28,140
dumbest. 1 Critics of Joseph
Smith have ridiculed the claim

877
00:54:28,140 --> 00:54:31,700
that the Book of Abraham was
purportedly written by his own

878
00:54:31,700 --> 00:54:34,620
hands upon papyrus, which is
what it says in the

879
00:54:34,620 --> 00:54:38,530
introduction.
And the criticism has been

880
00:54:38,530 --> 00:54:41,850
repeated in many parts of the
Internet and beyond, usually run

881
00:54:41,850 --> 00:54:43,930
something like this one.
Joseph Smith claimed Book of

882
00:54:44,410 --> 00:54:47,730
Abraham was written by his own
hand to pump a pirates, meaning

883
00:54:47,730 --> 00:54:51,130
Abraham himself hand wrote the
text Joseph Smith translated. 2

884
00:54:51,530 --> 00:54:55,530
They're surviving for pyrite
fragments date to around 201

885
00:54:55,530 --> 00:54:59,450
fifty BC.
Abraham, by contrast, is usually

886
00:54:59,450 --> 00:55:02,130
dated to having lived around
2000 BC.

887
00:55:03,250 --> 00:55:05,570
Therefore, Joseph misclaims that
the Book of Amer is written by

888
00:55:05,570 --> 00:55:07,950
his own hand.
Papyrus is false.

889
00:55:08,870 --> 00:55:10,710
Therefore the book of a member
is not authentic.

890
00:55:11,190 --> 00:55:12,750
Therefore Justice Smith was a
false prophet.

891
00:55:13,910 --> 00:55:18,430
That that is a dumb argument,
because look, I'm just going to

892
00:55:18,430 --> 00:55:22,350
say it like this if you pick up
a copy of Uncle Tom's Cabin,

893
00:55:23,430 --> 00:55:28,230
right?
That book was written by I think

894
00:55:28,230 --> 00:55:30,430
it's Harriet Beecher Stoll.
I could be wrong.

895
00:55:30,910 --> 00:55:33,430
I'm I'm blanking on the name
real quick of the author.

896
00:55:33,910 --> 00:55:41,720
But that book was written. 100,
you know, 100 years ago plus,

897
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,400
right?
You pick up a copy today.

898
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:48,720
You don't say, well, this isn't
really Uncle Tom's Cabin, right?

899
00:55:48,720 --> 00:55:51,400
This, this isn't really the
book.

900
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:57,080
And so we know the Egyptians
were master record keepers,

901
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:58,920
right?
If you listen to some of the

902
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,480
reports from the, you know,
before it was burnt down the

903
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,690
the, the library at Alexandria.
Right.

904
00:56:05,690 --> 00:56:07,970
They were.
They were and.

905
00:56:07,970 --> 00:56:09,730
Everything, yeah.
Right.

906
00:56:09,770 --> 00:56:14,970
So just cuz it's a copy doesn't
mean that it's inauthentic.

907
00:56:15,210 --> 00:56:17,570
I think of the New Testament.
You know my right, a New

908
00:56:17,570 --> 00:56:19,570
Testament.
Paul talks about himself first

909
00:56:19,570 --> 00:56:21,730
person.
Oh, he must have written my

910
00:56:21,730 --> 00:56:23,530
copy, of course.
That's stupid, right?

911
00:56:23,890 --> 00:56:29,650
But that's that's that argument.
There are two preeminent

912
00:56:29,890 --> 00:56:34,980
Egyptologists today who are LDS.
Who have written extensively

913
00:56:34,980 --> 00:56:37,020
about all of this stuff.
John G and the others.

914
00:56:37,020 --> 00:56:39,420
Kerry Mills, I think he's
called.

915
00:56:39,420 --> 00:56:42,220
I think he pronounced his name
Mulstein.

916
00:56:43,500 --> 00:56:45,300
You know the German name, says
Milstein.

917
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:47,940
But in any case, he answers it
this way.

918
00:56:48,660 --> 00:56:55,340
By the way, people have wondered
why more Egyptologists have not

919
00:56:55,340 --> 00:56:59,300
weighed in on this topic.
Can you imagine what a hot

920
00:56:59,300 --> 00:57:02,250
potato this topic is?
Oh yeah, Can you imagine

921
00:57:02,250 --> 00:57:04,890
canceled culture going against
anybody who would dare weigh in

922
00:57:04,890 --> 00:57:08,130
on this?
Well, and and let's just say

923
00:57:08,130 --> 00:57:10,130
that you.
Especially in favor of the of

924
00:57:10,130 --> 00:57:13,850
this Latter Day Saints.
I I was going to say, look, I've

925
00:57:13,850 --> 00:57:17,810
seen enough from from
archaeology that you got to kind

926
00:57:17,810 --> 00:57:20,210
of look at archaeology with a
little bit of stink eye from

927
00:57:20,210 --> 00:57:22,570
time to time, right.
You know, with a raised eyebrow.

928
00:57:23,250 --> 00:57:28,710
Because they're they're.
Let's just take Clovis, the

929
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:31,670
Clovis first model as an
example, right?

930
00:57:32,070 --> 00:57:34,870
They have said for years and
years the first people that ever

931
00:57:34,870 --> 00:57:38,310
be on the continent were were
the Clovis people, right?

932
00:57:38,310 --> 00:57:43,910
They find these same shaped
spearheads on the Delmarva

933
00:57:43,910 --> 00:57:47,990
Peninsula as they do out in
Clovis, NM and they're like, oh,

934
00:57:47,990 --> 00:57:51,670
this must have been the first
people until a roadway project

935
00:57:51,670 --> 00:57:54,030
and they find out, oh, there was
someone else here.

936
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:57,680
And they still they still fought
against.

937
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:01,880
That happens almost every day.
They they still fought against

938
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,640
the new narrative, right?
That this new discovery, so.

939
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,640
Pre I have to say, prehistory is
the most interesting puzzle.

940
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:11,520
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.

941
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:13,680
That in cosmology.
Yeah.

942
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:19,520
And so when you start looking at
this, I think because if you you

943
00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:25,140
do bring up a different.
A different paradigm than what's

944
00:58:25,140 --> 00:58:28,420
accepted there is a certain
amount of exclusion You get or

945
00:58:28,420 --> 00:58:33,340
ridicule for bringing that up.
It's not an open science like

946
00:58:33,340 --> 00:58:36,340
we'd hoped.
There, There is a network there.

947
00:58:36,340 --> 00:58:39,420
So if you're an if you're an
Egyptologist and you're doing

948
00:58:39,420 --> 00:58:42,420
this work and you're like, you
know, this sounds awfully close

949
00:58:42,420 --> 00:58:46,420
to what the Mormons think,
right, you can bet you're going

950
00:58:46,420 --> 00:58:49,860
to have your credentials looked
at very seriously.

951
00:58:50,620 --> 00:58:52,940
Even if you're LDS, which is my
point.

952
00:58:53,470 --> 00:58:58,230
And the fact that Carrie and
John are willing to risk their

953
00:58:58,310 --> 00:59:02,150
professional reputations to say
anything about this.

954
00:59:02,190 --> 00:59:04,990
Even though they're LDS, they
don't make their living doing

955
00:59:04,990 --> 00:59:07,510
this stuff.
They don't make any money from

956
00:59:07,510 --> 00:59:11,110
these books.
They're doing it as a service to

957
00:59:11,110 --> 00:59:17,630
people like me, and they're
castigated by Mormons and non

958
00:59:17,630 --> 00:59:20,470
Mormons alike who fall on both
sides of the issue.

959
00:59:20,970 --> 00:59:22,170
You know, and and here's the
thing.

960
00:59:22,170 --> 00:59:24,370
So that that that takes a
certain amount of courage for

961
00:59:24,370 --> 00:59:27,290
them to speak out at all.
Well, you you mentioned they're

962
00:59:27,290 --> 00:59:29,170
not making a ton of money off
those books.

963
00:59:29,170 --> 00:59:32,130
Let's be honest, no money.
With the exception of you, me,

964
00:59:32,130 --> 00:59:36,250
and probably 12 other people,
there's nobody else getting

965
00:59:36,250 --> 00:59:40,250
getting excited about Egyptology
from a Mormon point of view,

966
00:59:40,250 --> 00:59:44,530
right?
You Nibbly definitely John G.

967
00:59:45,690 --> 00:59:48,850
A couple other scholars.
And it's not like it's a a

968
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:52,250
hotbed of activity for literate.
True, true.

969
00:59:53,250 --> 00:59:56,330
But I am so grateful for them
and from their perspective I

970
00:59:56,330 --> 01:00:00,250
just.
I wish I could tell them both.

971
01:00:00,570 --> 01:00:04,130
Thank you for sticking your neck
out and explaining some of this

972
01:00:04,130 --> 01:00:08,570
stuff, you know?
Anyway, he says.

973
01:00:10,450 --> 01:00:13,290
Who said this particular papyrus
was written by Abraham himself?

974
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,280
The heading does not indicate
that Abraham had written the

975
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,800
particular copy, but he was.
He was the author of the

976
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:24,680
original, and he goes on, he
concludes, when the heading

977
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,160
states that the text was written
by Abraham's On the hand, it

978
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,920
notes who the author is not, who
copied down the particular

979
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:34,360
manuscript that came into Joe's
specific anyway.

980
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:36,640
But you know how many people get
thrown by that?

981
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:38,560
Too many.
Yeah.

982
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:43,690
Too many?
Now we get to the Kirtland

983
01:00:43,690 --> 01:00:50,970
Egyptian paper.
There were a collection of

984
01:00:50,970 --> 01:00:55,050
documents that were discovered
dealing with Egyptian and an

985
01:00:55,050 --> 01:00:59,810
attempt to translate Egyptian
characters that had been taken

986
01:01:00,330 --> 01:01:05,410
from those for pyrite.
And so people think, aha, this

987
01:01:05,410 --> 01:01:09,410
is evidence that Joseph Smith
was not by revelation but

988
01:01:09,650 --> 01:01:11,650
physically working out how to
translate.

989
01:01:12,330 --> 01:01:16,330
And of course it's wrong.
You look at the KEP, this is

990
01:01:16,330 --> 01:01:21,650
what it's called for short.
And each Egyptian, each Egyptian

991
01:01:21,650 --> 01:01:24,850
glyph has like multiple
sentences of meaning to it,

992
01:01:26,130 --> 01:01:28,850
right?
And it that's not so the the

993
01:01:28,850 --> 01:01:31,450
Kirtland Egyptian papers were
produced, and this is

994
01:01:31,450 --> 01:01:34,690
significant.
After the Book of Abraham was

995
01:01:34,690 --> 01:01:37,250
dictated, that's significant
too.

996
01:01:39,460 --> 01:01:43,220
Some source material used in the
KEP is taken from sections of

997
01:01:43,220 --> 01:01:46,700
the Doctrine and Covenants.
Some of the Kirtland Egyptian

998
01:01:46,700 --> 01:01:49,020
papers do not contain any
Egyptian at all.

999
01:01:50,020 --> 01:01:55,460
There are some really deep
concepts, and we talked about

1000
01:01:55,460 --> 01:02:01,020
someday about cosmology and the
restored gospel, the KEP says.

1001
01:02:01,140 --> 01:02:05,500
Really amazing stuff about that.
I mean, just snippets, amazing.

1002
01:02:06,490 --> 01:02:09,370
And for the placement of a
translation of the Book of

1003
01:02:09,370 --> 01:02:13,290
Abraham prior to the to the
production of the KEP renders

1004
01:02:13,290 --> 01:02:16,850
the entire discussion regarding
which document came before which

1005
01:02:16,850 --> 01:02:23,250
of the documents irrelevant,
Richard Bushman, author of Rough

1006
01:02:23,250 --> 01:02:26,890
Stone Rolling, he said while
working on the Book of Mormon in

1007
01:02:26,890 --> 01:02:30,290
1829, Joseph invited Oliver
Cowdry to try to translate.

1008
01:02:30,570 --> 01:02:34,090
We all know how that went.
He tried and failed now with the

1009
01:02:34,090 --> 01:02:38,090
Egyptian papara before them.
Joseph again let the men with

1010
01:02:38,090 --> 01:02:43,450
the greatest interest within
such undertakings Caldary and WW

1011
01:02:43,450 --> 01:02:46,410
Phelps, Warren Parrish, and
Frederick Williams, attempt

1012
01:02:46,410 --> 01:02:50,090
translations of the text.
Why would he do that?

1013
01:02:51,850 --> 01:02:53,050
I could think of a couple
reasons.

1014
01:02:53,290 --> 01:02:57,090
So that they wouldn't take for
granted what he was doing, and

1015
01:02:57,090 --> 01:03:01,930
to try and encourage them to
become to prepare to when he

1016
01:03:02,450 --> 01:03:05,830
ultimately when he was gone.
To do some of the things that he

1017
01:03:06,110 --> 01:03:09,190
that they would need to do.
You know, we we forget that

1018
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:13,910
Joseph had said on more than one
occasion, Oh, if all men could

1019
01:03:13,910 --> 01:03:18,150
be prophets, right?
This Joseph was not a guy who

1020
01:03:18,150 --> 01:03:23,310
was threatened by somebody
else's spiritual experiences,

1021
01:03:23,950 --> 01:03:25,110
right?
It was.

1022
01:03:25,110 --> 01:03:26,710
Very clear.
He was very clear about the

1023
01:03:26,750 --> 01:03:30,230
order of priesthood, right?
There's only one man at a time.

1024
01:03:30,230 --> 01:03:33,120
He receives verbally.
That's that's what the order of

1025
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,000
the priest said means Mine house
is a House of order.

1026
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:40,440
But he was trying to create a
Kingdom of prophets.

1027
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,720
Yeah.
Anyway, these guys seem to have

1028
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,280
copied lines of Egyptian from
the papyrus and worked out

1029
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,640
stories to go with the text.
Or they wrote down an Egyptian

1030
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:54,720
character and attempted various
conditions.

1031
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:58,000
One can imagine these men
staring at the characters.

1032
01:03:58,660 --> 01:04:01,740
Jotting down ideas that occurred
to them, hoping for a burning

1033
01:04:01,740 --> 01:04:04,940
confirmation, they tried one
approach after another.

1034
01:04:04,940 --> 01:04:08,220
Eventually, they pulled their
work together into a collection

1035
01:04:08,620 --> 01:04:11,220
that they called Grammar and
Alphabet of the Egyptian

1036
01:04:11,220 --> 01:04:16,820
Language, and it was written in
the handwriting of WW Phelps and

1037
01:04:16,820 --> 01:04:19,340
Warren Parrish, not Joseph
Smith's.

1038
01:04:20,620 --> 01:04:24,420
So that theory goes by the
wayside That criticism is dead.

1039
01:04:29,310 --> 01:04:32,470
Criticism #5.
Biblical Abraham had nothing to

1040
01:04:32,470 --> 01:04:37,550
do with ancient Egypt.
Now this image that we're

1041
01:04:37,550 --> 01:04:40,910
looking at has to be one of my
favorite images in regard to

1042
01:04:40,910 --> 01:04:43,950
this ever.
This is another papyrus.

1043
01:04:43,950 --> 01:04:45,830
This is not the Joseph Smith
papyrus.

1044
01:04:46,870 --> 01:04:49,670
It's called the Leiden Papyrus
in the Netherlands.

1045
01:04:50,430 --> 01:04:52,910
It dates to the 3rd century.
It's written in Greek.

1046
01:04:53,910 --> 01:04:56,470
Notice what the what the
vignette is.

1047
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:02,040
On another lion couch, another
person lying on the couch, you

1048
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:05,840
can see the priest standing over
him with a Jackal mask.

1049
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:08,680
And what is that?
A knife in his hand.

1050
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,000
And you can see the person lying
down with his hands up in the

1051
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,880
air, like in the Joseph's
hippocyrus, like in our

1052
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:18,680
facsimile one.
You know what the biggest

1053
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:20,320
difference is between these
images?

1054
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,840
At the bottom of that image, you
see that outlined in red?

1055
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:32,070
That's Greek.
For Abraham, really, you can't

1056
01:05:32,070 --> 01:05:44,230
make this stuff up.
That's awesome, So we'll just

1057
01:05:44,230 --> 01:05:45,870
file that one away as we go
through.

1058
01:05:45,870 --> 01:05:46,830
We're going to talk about it
again.

1059
01:05:47,470 --> 01:05:49,870
Anyway, the outline marks
Abraham's name.

1060
01:05:50,390 --> 01:05:52,590
Now this this papyrus is from
the 3rd century.

1061
01:05:52,590 --> 01:05:55,560
It's like.
The four to five centuries after

1062
01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,600
the Joseph Smithville pirate,
there are dozens.

1063
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:01,560
And this is John G again.
This is published in The Enzyme

1064
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:04,760
in 1992.
There are dozens of references

1065
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:10,000
to Abraham in Egyptian texts.
Here we mentioned six of them

1066
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:11,360
and we won't go through those
tonight.

1067
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:17,000
And those mentions date to the
3rd century AD, the same time as

1068
01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:19,740
his pirates.
And most of them came from

1069
01:06:19,740 --> 01:06:23,780
Thebes, the same place Joseph
where the Joseph Smith pyrite

1070
01:06:23,780 --> 01:06:28,420
came from.
So the whole talk, you know,

1071
01:06:28,940 --> 01:06:31,420
ancient Egypt didn't even know
who Abraham was.

1072
01:06:31,420 --> 01:06:36,740
That's crap.
They knew exactly who he was.

1073
01:06:37,620 --> 01:06:42,540
I won't mention the name of an
anti Mormon amateur Egyptologist

1074
01:06:42,540 --> 01:06:46,900
to criticize this study.
He said they were talking about

1075
01:06:46,900 --> 01:06:52,660
Biblical Abraham.
The Egyptians had incantations,

1076
01:06:52,660 --> 01:06:57,380
magic words.
When we say abracadabra, that's

1077
01:06:57,380 --> 01:07:01,500
an ancient Egyptian magic word,
Abarakadavara.

1078
01:07:03,500 --> 01:07:06,260
And so he said, yeah, the
Abraham, that was just a magic

1079
01:07:06,260 --> 01:07:08,820
word.
And we talked about this in your

1080
01:07:08,820 --> 01:07:12,220
city on my couch.
John Gee responded to that

1081
01:07:12,220 --> 01:07:16,020
criticism with a very
sarcastically titled article

1082
01:07:16,020 --> 01:07:19,840
saying.
Abracadabra Abraham, Isaac, and

1083
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:21,720
Jacob.
Right.

1084
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,600
Clearly they had context cuz
they mentioned Abraham, Isaac

1085
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:29,040
and Jacob together.
There's no magic word.

1086
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:32,240
No.
I mean they may have been using

1087
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:34,920
it as an incantation, but they
knew who it was cuz there was

1088
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:38,280
context.
Or at least early on they did,

1089
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:39,960
right?
We don't know what what

1090
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:44,240
preceding generations, but just
like we have sayings in our.

1091
01:07:44,730 --> 01:07:50,210
And are vernacular that we don't
often think about where they

1092
01:07:50,210 --> 01:07:51,410
came from, right?
It's true.

1093
01:07:51,530 --> 01:07:55,410
That's true, but this laiden for
pirates, I mean, what a gift.

1094
01:07:56,370 --> 01:07:58,490
It's the Joseph Smith fire I
with labels.

1095
01:07:58,490 --> 01:08:06,490
It's amazing criticism #6 the
lion couch that Abraham was

1096
01:08:06,490 --> 01:08:07,330
lying on.
Effects of.

1097
01:08:07,330 --> 01:08:11,570
It was never used for sacrifice.
It was just for embalming.

1098
01:08:13,060 --> 01:08:17,260
Large alabaster tables found in
Memphis, Egypt, with the lion

1099
01:08:17,260 --> 01:08:20,819
design carved in relief on their
sides, were rarely used for

1100
01:08:20,819 --> 01:08:23,340
evolving.
These the research of this guy

1101
01:08:23,340 --> 01:08:28,020
in 1948, Mustafa, I wish my name
was Mustafa, concerning the Apes

1102
01:08:28,020 --> 01:08:31,700
Bowl at Memphis revealed that
these tables were used daily to

1103
01:08:31,700 --> 01:08:35,060
wash the living apes, the
sacrificial bowl and also to

1104
01:08:35,100 --> 01:08:38,740
form form, sacrifice.
Amir described an offering table

1105
01:08:38,740 --> 01:08:42,340
with lions carved on its sides.
Located near an inscription of

1106
01:08:42,340 --> 01:08:47,020
dedication to the living bowl
Avis And here are the

1107
01:08:47,020 --> 01:08:49,819
photographs of those alabaster
tables.

1108
01:08:50,660 --> 01:08:56,740
You see the lion couch relief.
And there's the base of it down

1109
01:08:56,740 --> 01:09:01,700
here, where the blood would
drain into into a bowl.

1110
01:09:03,100 --> 01:09:05,380
And here it is.
From the top you see how the

1111
01:09:05,380 --> 01:09:07,140
catch base it would catch the
blood.

1112
01:09:07,460 --> 01:09:08,660
It would drain down to the
bottom.

1113
01:09:09,020 --> 01:09:13,260
And everything also.
And don't tell me the line catch

1114
01:09:13,300 --> 01:09:16,819
was never used for sacrifice,
and there's textual evidence for

1115
01:09:16,819 --> 01:09:19,180
that.
Also, just like all sciences, as

1116
01:09:19,180 --> 01:09:22,899
time progresses the earlier
assumptions are being disproven

1117
01:09:23,899 --> 01:09:27,779
and almost and always in the
favor of Joseph Smith, which is

1118
01:09:27,779 --> 01:09:34,939
the part that boggles my mind.
Criticism #7 The Book of Abraham

1119
01:09:34,939 --> 01:09:37,979
is not on the Joseph Smith for
Pyri.

1120
01:09:39,470 --> 01:09:42,990
Containing Facsimile One.
There again they're saying

1121
01:09:42,990 --> 01:09:46,950
because the Joseph Smith papyri
has Facsimile One on it, where's

1122
01:09:46,950 --> 01:09:48,149
the Book of Abraham?
It should be there.

1123
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:51,029
Egyptologist Carrie Millstein
again.

1124
01:09:51,710 --> 01:09:54,550
The immediate assumption was
that the text adjacent to

1125
01:09:54,550 --> 01:09:57,830
Facsimile One must have been the
text from which Joseph Smith

1126
01:09:57,830 --> 01:09:59,990
translated the Book of Abraham.
I couldn't understand why they

1127
01:09:59,990 --> 01:10:03,350
would think that, while at first
glance it seems reasonable.

1128
01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:08,720
To assume that the text
adjoining facsimile one would be

1129
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:10,720
the place to look for the source
of the Book of Abraham.

1130
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:14,440
There are many reasons to
discard that assumption #1.

1131
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:19,480
Dissonance or differences
between the text and the

1132
01:10:19,640 --> 01:10:22,720
adjacent picture is even more
pronounced.

1133
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:27,520
With ancient propriety it is
common to find the picture some

1134
01:10:27,520 --> 01:10:31,480
distance from the text.
Such incongruity was especially

1135
01:10:31,480 --> 01:10:35,620
endemic to the Ptolemaic era.
Which happens to be the time

1136
01:10:35,620 --> 01:10:40,380
period during which the Joseph
Smith papyri were created and to

1137
01:10:40,380 --> 01:10:42,780
the type of text we find next to
facsimile one.

1138
01:10:43,180 --> 01:10:46,940
In this case, the Joseph Smith
papyri turns out to be exactly

1139
01:10:47,180 --> 01:10:53,420
like most papyri of its day, so
most of them were incongruent.

1140
01:10:53,420 --> 01:10:57,580
They were disconnected #2.
Furthermore, during the time

1141
01:10:57,580 --> 01:11:00,380
period it was Joseph Smith Pyro
created, it was common, not only

1142
01:11:00,820 --> 01:11:03,180
the text and its accompanying
picture to be separated from

1143
01:11:03,180 --> 01:11:05,850
each other.
But also for the wrong vignette

1144
01:11:05,850 --> 01:11:09,570
to be associated with the text,
or for vignettes and text to be

1145
01:11:09,570 --> 01:11:13,410
completely misaligned.
On a long scroll, the content of

1146
01:11:13,410 --> 01:11:16,970
a vignette and the content of
the text frequently lack any

1147
01:11:16,970 --> 01:11:20,290
apparent connection.
This is particularly common in

1148
01:11:20,290 --> 01:11:23,410
books of breathing the type of
text which is adjacent to

1149
01:11:23,410 --> 01:11:26,050
facsimile one on the Joseph
Smith propyre.

1150
01:11:27,890 --> 01:11:32,050
So I imagine there are these
priests.

1151
01:11:32,970 --> 01:11:35,610
And they might be low because
they weren't doing the stuff for

1152
01:11:35,610 --> 01:11:40,050
the pharaoh, the lower level
presubscribes, maybe not even

1153
01:11:40,050 --> 01:11:42,370
understanding what there it was
just decoration.

1154
01:11:43,050 --> 01:11:45,530
Yeah, this will look nice on the
scroll here, you know it's a

1155
01:11:45,530 --> 01:11:49,770
possibility #3.
There is no known case of

1156
01:11:49,970 --> 01:11:54,090
anything yet remotely like
facsimile one that is associated

1157
01:11:54,090 --> 01:11:56,690
with the type of text that it is
adjacent to.

1158
01:11:57,490 --> 01:12:00,130
So the presumption there is no
evidence for at all.

1159
01:12:01,050 --> 01:12:03,610
No other copies of the Book of
Readings contain anything

1160
01:12:03,610 --> 01:12:06,250
similar.
Based on ancient parallels to

1161
01:12:06,250 --> 01:12:09,130
the Book of Readings, the most
likely conclusion is that the

1162
01:12:09,130 --> 01:12:12,490
picture next to the text was not
associated with the text at all.

1163
01:12:13,410 --> 01:12:16,810
So the evidence is precisely
opposite of the presumption.

1164
01:12:18,010 --> 01:12:23,690
Gotcha.
Now we're to the really fun

1165
01:12:23,690 --> 01:12:28,930
stuff, Criticism #8.
Shows us misinterpretations of

1166
01:12:28,930 --> 01:12:32,970
the facsimiles are all wrong,
wrong, wrong, wrong right.

1167
01:12:33,770 --> 01:12:35,450
And that's usually where the
critics stop.

1168
01:12:37,250 --> 01:12:40,010
They don't go into any detail.
Why?

1169
01:12:41,210 --> 01:12:44,290
Because if they go into detail,
they're going to find, they're

1170
01:12:44,290 --> 01:12:48,730
going to expose the the fallacy
that they're putting out there.

1171
01:12:49,090 --> 01:12:52,610
Or they don't have any detail.
It's just too easy to believe

1172
01:12:53,090 --> 01:12:56,600
and I understand.
If I didn't know what I know, I

1173
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:58,160
believe that too.
I was a crackpot.

1174
01:12:58,360 --> 01:13:02,640
He's a crank just making this
stuff up, which is it leads

1175
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,560
right into the home run section.
The home runs come in three

1176
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:12,080
categories in my view that the
critics will not ever tell you

1177
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:15,160
because they don't know or they
don't want you to know Joseph

1178
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:18,280
Smith's bulls eyes regarding the
interpretation of specific

1179
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:22,600
elements of the facsimiles.
Your Joseph Smith.

1180
01:13:23,370 --> 01:13:26,970
You have practically no
education, nobody knows anything

1181
01:13:26,970 --> 01:13:32,090
about Egyptian, and you're
taking a stab at ideagrams.

1182
01:13:32,090 --> 01:13:34,610
Not even hieroglyphics.
You shouldn't even be in the

1183
01:13:34,610 --> 01:13:36,050
ballpark.
Right.

1184
01:13:37,210 --> 01:13:40,290
Do you?
I remembered as a young age

1185
01:13:41,490 --> 01:13:43,850
flipping through my copy
descriptions, which I hadn't

1186
01:13:43,850 --> 01:13:47,850
even done, and seeing those
facsimiles for the first time,

1187
01:13:48,090 --> 01:13:50,330
being bored at sacred meeting.
I'm going.

1188
01:13:52,570 --> 01:13:55,410
What can this mean?
I'm going to try and figure it

1189
01:13:55,410 --> 01:13:58,490
out myself, you know, and try
and take guesses at it.

1190
01:13:58,490 --> 01:14:02,370
I understand where the early
viewers, you know, WW Phelps and

1191
01:14:02,370 --> 01:14:03,490
Moore and Parish were coming
from.

1192
01:14:03,530 --> 01:14:06,970
What is this?
And my guesses are stupid

1193
01:14:07,810 --> 01:14:09,650
relative to what that really is
about.

1194
01:14:10,130 --> 01:14:14,410
Joseph Smith weren't anyway
second category the utter

1195
01:14:14,410 --> 01:14:17,090
vindication.
Of the notion that Abraham was

1196
01:14:17,210 --> 01:14:21,770
ever on a lying couch in Egypt.
By the discovery of authentic

1197
01:14:21,850 --> 01:14:25,370
pari vignettes labeled with
Abraham's name, we saw it And

1198
01:14:25,370 --> 01:14:29,530
three the numerous unmistakable
parallels between our Book of

1199
01:14:29,530 --> 01:14:33,170
Abraham and extra canonical
texts that were unknown to

1200
01:14:33,170 --> 01:14:43,850
Joseph Smith, which are fully
documented in my book, Back

1201
01:14:43,850 --> 01:14:47,250
Simile #1.
So I give you the full facsimile

1202
01:14:47,250 --> 01:14:52,410
on the right and then the the
particular image that we're

1203
01:14:52,410 --> 01:14:54,890
talking about.
So facsimile.

1204
01:14:54,890 --> 01:14:59,090
One figure one is this bird,
which Joseph Smith says is the

1205
01:14:59,130 --> 01:15:04,650
Angel of the Lord, who would say
that a bird.

1206
01:15:05,610 --> 01:15:10,610
So here's now the the
interpretation through an

1207
01:15:10,610 --> 01:15:15,660
Egyptological lens.
It is not a bobbird, as it might

1208
01:15:15,660 --> 01:15:20,260
have been in the original
vignette, but is a hawk any

1209
01:15:20,260 --> 01:15:23,980
Falconoid bird the sign of a
powerful divine or celestial

1210
01:15:23,980 --> 01:15:29,380
being?
In Egyptian mythology, it is

1211
01:15:29,380 --> 01:15:36,580
Horace the hawk who delivers his
father Osiris from death, Divine

1212
01:15:36,580 --> 01:15:39,460
being.
OK now, when we play this game,

1213
01:15:40,180 --> 01:15:44,600
you get to be Simon Cowell.
So we're going to read, we're

1214
01:15:44,960 --> 01:15:47,080
going to read Joseph's
misinterpretation, then we're

1215
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:50,880
going to read the Egyptological
interpretation, and you get to

1216
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:54,840
go Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding if it
matches or burn if it doesn't.

1217
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:58,240
You ready?
So here's the first one.

1218
01:15:59,600 --> 01:16:01,520
Ding, Ding or burn.
You're bad.

1219
01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:04,080
You're horrible at this.
I know, I know.

1220
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:07,120
I'm trying.
To think Angel of the Lord, a

1221
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:09,120
powerful divine or celestial
being.

1222
01:16:10,620 --> 01:16:12,260
That's I couldn't.
That's not the same at all.

1223
01:16:13,380 --> 01:16:15,540
Yeah.
So and and here's the thing.

1224
01:16:16,540 --> 01:16:19,020
I'm trying to see it from the
other side.

1225
01:16:19,140 --> 01:16:21,020
Right.
I'm a big believer in trying to

1226
01:16:21,460 --> 01:16:25,100
to understand where they're
coming from because I I want to

1227
01:16:25,100 --> 01:16:27,860
assume the best that nobody's
out to do somebody

1228
01:16:27,860 --> 01:16:33,860
intentionally, right.
And but but when you get down to

1229
01:16:33,860 --> 01:16:40,320
these these facsimiles.
These hieroglyphs, you have to

1230
01:16:40,320 --> 01:16:43,520
look at like another language,
right?

1231
01:16:43,880 --> 01:16:50,480
So just as we have a word for
Angel in our vernacular, yeah,

1232
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:55,840
so does, so does German, so does
French, whatever.

1233
01:16:56,480 --> 01:16:58,600
But we know they're describing
the same thing.

1234
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:01,960
And I think with these vignettes
here, especially, you know, when

1235
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:05,360
we start looking at it and you
start seeing what Joseph said

1236
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:08,620
and what.
You know current Egyptologists

1237
01:17:08,620 --> 01:17:12,780
have said and when they they
they match up, you have to put

1238
01:17:14,220 --> 01:17:21,340
some level of of at least
coincidence.

1239
01:17:21,460 --> 01:17:23,140
I shouldn't even say at least
coincidence.

1240
01:17:23,580 --> 01:17:27,820
You have to look at it in terms
of okay he hit that right.

1241
01:17:27,940 --> 01:17:31,620
He, he absolutely, 100% hit that
and that's right.

1242
01:17:31,660 --> 01:17:33,700
We're coming just from Joseph
Smith now.

1243
01:17:34,150 --> 01:17:37,710
It's coming from Egyptologist,
so that's absolutely a hit.

1244
01:17:39,150 --> 01:17:44,590
And I will remind us of this
fact.

1245
01:17:44,670 --> 01:17:48,070
Joseph Smith had no business
even being close.

1246
01:17:49,310 --> 01:17:50,670
He had no business even being
close.

1247
01:17:50,870 --> 01:17:52,750
Here he is and this is not the
best one.

1248
01:17:53,390 --> 01:17:56,150
Well, and and let's let's stop
here for a second, right?

1249
01:17:56,350 --> 01:18:00,320
We also know.
That from the account of Jesus's

1250
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:04,560
baptism that the Holy Ghost was
represented by not a hawk.

1251
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:07,840
But it does.
A bird, right?

1252
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:13,680
So it's not the first time an
airborne creature was used to

1253
01:18:13,680 --> 01:18:18,320
describe a divine being.
Very, very good.

1254
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:21,320
Very good.
Can't get enough of the Mormon

1255
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:24,200
Renegade podcast?
Well, good news, we're on

1256
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:26,640
Patreon and there's three
packages that you can choose

1257
01:18:26,640 --> 01:18:28,820
from.
The first one, the Slightly

1258
01:18:28,820 --> 01:18:32,060
Rowdy package, allows you to
hear the podcast without all

1259
01:18:32,060 --> 01:18:34,020
those pesky commercials getting
in the way.

1260
01:18:34,460 --> 01:18:37,380
For those who want a slightly
more indepth experience, there's

1261
01:18:37,380 --> 01:18:40,900
the Stirring It Up package where
you can hear adfree audio,

1262
01:18:41,180 --> 01:18:44,900
adfree video, and transcripts.
Finally, for those who want to

1263
01:18:44,900 --> 01:18:48,260
go full Renegade, that package
is available to where you can

1264
01:18:48,260 --> 01:18:52,020
get everything in the previous
two packages, plus an extra show

1265
01:18:52,020 --> 01:18:55,380
where myself and Ben Winfield
break down the news of the day

1266
01:18:55,380 --> 01:18:57,140
from a very Mormon point of
view.

1267
01:18:57,570 --> 01:19:01,730
You'll also get exclusive access
to Renegade Chat, and on there

1268
01:19:01,730 --> 01:19:04,210
you'll be able to talk to others
about the show or whatever

1269
01:19:04,210 --> 01:19:07,970
topics are on your mind.
Go to Patreon today and get your

1270
01:19:07,970 --> 01:19:10,930
exclusive content.
Very, very good.

1271
01:19:11,290 --> 01:19:14,610
Very good facsimile.
One figure 2.

1272
01:19:14,930 --> 01:19:19,810
Abraham fastened upon an altar.
Everybody says that's a joke.

1273
01:19:19,810 --> 01:19:23,490
Well, we've already seen why
it's not a joke, because we have

1274
01:19:23,730 --> 01:19:29,090
a nearly identical authentic.
For pirates, that names the

1275
01:19:29,090 --> 01:19:32,850
person on the altar right as
being Abraham, right?

1276
01:19:33,170 --> 01:19:37,170
Yeah, going back to that Greek,
that one that was that had the

1277
01:19:37,170 --> 01:19:41,250
the Greek Greek script at the
bottom that said Abraham.

1278
01:19:41,450 --> 01:19:42,530
That one.
No.

1279
01:19:42,530 --> 01:19:44,410
No.
Yeah, exactly.

1280
01:19:44,410 --> 01:19:46,570
Go back to that last one,
because I think there's

1281
01:19:46,570 --> 01:19:47,970
something here we need to point
out.

1282
01:19:48,730 --> 01:19:52,570
And that is the bald head.
Okay.

1283
01:19:52,970 --> 01:19:56,010
Now, if what was Abraham on a
quest for?

1284
01:19:56,640 --> 01:19:59,640
He was on a quest for
priesthood, right?

1285
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:05,560
He wanted the blessings of the
father, so that in turn would

1286
01:20:05,560 --> 01:20:09,760
make him a priest.
If this was fashioned by an

1287
01:20:09,760 --> 01:20:14,440
Egyptian, which lends itself
that it was fashioned by an

1288
01:20:14,440 --> 01:20:18,120
Egyptian right, a bald head with
denote.

1289
01:20:18,120 --> 01:20:25,240
Abraham had some sort of
priesthood lineage or priesthood

1290
01:20:25,240 --> 01:20:27,560
standing.
Oh, his bald head.

1291
01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:30,360
Very interesting indeed.
Yeah, I hadn't even thought

1292
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:33,440
about that.
Now here's something else

1293
01:20:33,440 --> 01:20:37,600
pointed out about this picture.
The position of Abraham's hands

1294
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:42,640
is not, is not incidental,
Abraham said.

1295
01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:44,760
Behold, I lifted up my voice to
the Lord God.

1296
01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:48,560
The sign illustrating Abraham's
supplication to God is not only

1297
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:52,000
compatible with the message of
the text, the upbraised hands.

1298
01:20:52,870 --> 01:20:57,910
But it is an authentic
hieroglyphic sign, properly used

1299
01:20:57,910 --> 01:21:01,750
by a man who is accused of not
knowing anything about Egyptian

1300
01:21:01,750 --> 01:21:03,990
signs.
So.

1301
01:21:07,230 --> 01:21:10,350
Do I get the bell or the buzzer?
You get the bell on that?

1302
01:21:10,750 --> 01:21:17,070
One, you're no fun at all.
The altar for sacrifice.

1303
01:21:17,870 --> 01:21:20,390
And we talked about this already
in defense of this idea.

1304
01:21:21,790 --> 01:21:24,510
Experts have been unwilling to
acknowledge that this item could

1305
01:21:24,510 --> 01:21:26,230
be anything but an embalming
table.

1306
01:21:26,990 --> 01:21:30,750
Certainly it can represent an
embalming table, sure, but as a

1307
01:21:30,750 --> 01:21:32,990
symbol it is not restricted to
that interpretation.

1308
01:21:33,390 --> 01:21:37,550
I mean, even the beds that they
slept on were lying couches, so

1309
01:21:37,550 --> 01:21:38,590
they were used for all kinds of
things.

1310
01:21:39,350 --> 01:21:41,750
And then we have the large
alabaster tables that we looked

1311
01:21:41,750 --> 01:21:43,990
at already.
Photos of them again.

1312
01:21:44,350 --> 01:21:47,350
Yep, go back to that.
I got a question I want to ask

1313
01:21:47,350 --> 01:21:51,860
you about that vignette.
And no one's been able to answer

1314
01:21:51,860 --> 01:21:55,980
this for me.
Abraham appears, appears to be

1315
01:21:55,980 --> 01:22:02,620
wearing something.
If you look at his below the

1316
01:22:02,620 --> 01:22:08,700
knee, he doesn't have the the
the diagonal hatching that he

1317
01:22:08,700 --> 01:22:12,380
has on his body.
Have you been able to dig up

1318
01:22:12,380 --> 01:22:18,500
anything on what that could be?
I have failed.

1319
01:22:18,540 --> 01:22:21,110
I have no idea.
None at all.

1320
01:22:21,270 --> 01:22:24,270
I've never, I haven't read
anything regarding his apparel.

1321
01:22:25,430 --> 01:22:29,030
I have read you see the apparel
that the priest is wearing.

1322
01:22:29,310 --> 01:22:32,630
Yeah.
That's a leopard skin K, which

1323
01:22:32,630 --> 01:22:37,430
is what they really wore.
Here's here's the other thing.

1324
01:22:37,430 --> 01:22:42,750
If it's If this is embalming,
why would they have clothes on a

1325
01:22:42,750 --> 01:22:45,950
corpse?
That's a good point.

1326
01:22:46,530 --> 01:22:49,210
But here's the other thing, It
might also have to do with just

1327
01:22:49,490 --> 01:22:52,930
reproduction of these wood cuts.
Gotcha.

1328
01:22:53,170 --> 01:22:56,810
Let's go back.
I want to go back to the

1329
01:22:57,090 --> 01:23:05,530
original Pyri.
Yeah, they're lines on the Pyri

1330
01:23:05,570 --> 01:23:08,090
itself.
It's not, it's not just an

1331
01:23:08,090 --> 01:23:09,810
artifact of the woodcut.
No.

1332
01:23:10,010 --> 01:23:13,770
Yeah, very good.
It just struck me as odd.

1333
01:23:14,050 --> 01:23:15,450
Right.
Well, next time.

1334
01:23:16,070 --> 01:23:18,030
Next time you visit, I expect an
answer.

1335
01:23:19,910 --> 01:23:21,510
Well, can I come to you for the
answer?

1336
01:23:23,110 --> 01:23:25,670
Well, it's in my head now.
I just talk smack with a

1337
01:23:25,670 --> 01:23:27,070
microphone.
That's what I do.

1338
01:23:27,870 --> 01:23:31,150
I get people way smarter than me
on to talk about this stuff.

1339
01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:33,790
But it's a gift, brother.
It's a gift.

1340
01:23:35,910 --> 01:23:37,070
All right.
Now let's see.

1341
01:23:37,470 --> 01:23:38,030
Couch.
Yeah.

1342
01:23:39,310 --> 01:23:42,950
Now we get to these figures
beneath the lion Couch.

1343
01:23:45,260 --> 01:23:49,340
Joseph Smith says the idolatros
God of Elkanah, Idolatros, God

1344
01:23:49,340 --> 01:23:53,980
of Libna Idolatros, God of
Mackmara, and the idolatros God

1345
01:23:53,980 --> 01:23:57,340
of Cora.
Where in the heck is he pulling

1346
01:23:57,340 --> 01:24:03,940
these names out of?
They represent 4 canopic jars

1347
01:24:04,380 --> 01:24:08,420
correctly identified by Joseph
Smith as representing gods not

1348
01:24:08,420 --> 01:24:10,500
very often in an embalming
ceremony.

1349
01:24:10,740 --> 01:24:12,780
They were jars and then put the
viscera.

1350
01:24:13,220 --> 01:24:16,980
The guts of the embalmed into
these jars, but there were also

1351
01:24:16,980 --> 01:24:19,740
numerous examples of them.
It's not being jars at all,

1352
01:24:19,820 --> 01:24:24,460
being solid figurines like that.
Right.

1353
01:24:25,140 --> 01:24:27,300
Go back to that picture one more
time, Ken.

1354
01:24:28,420 --> 01:24:35,900
So I'm also noticing just
looking here, there seemed to be

1355
01:24:35,900 --> 01:24:39,460
some sort of writing on three of
the four of those.

1356
01:24:40,100 --> 01:24:46,260
It looks like 1/2 and on two of
them and then like in or or a

1357
01:24:46,260 --> 01:24:49,500
half a I should say it's got
like that almost like the alpha

1358
01:24:49,500 --> 01:24:57,340
sign yeah yeah and then like
yeah and then like an N almost

1359
01:24:57,340 --> 01:24:59,540
on the other.
Any ideas have you been able to

1360
01:24:59,540 --> 01:25:02,340
come up well the the.
Compass and the square figure

1361
01:25:02,340 --> 01:25:07,980
prominently in Egyptian culture
as symbols of power and

1362
01:25:07,980 --> 01:25:11,050
authority.
And yeah.

1363
01:25:11,770 --> 01:25:15,210
OK, so, so yeah.
You shoot from the hip on that,

1364
01:25:15,690 --> 01:25:16,890
but yeah, you're ahead of me
again.

1365
01:25:16,890 --> 01:25:19,650
So I I don't know for sure.
That's a good question and then

1366
01:25:19,650 --> 01:25:22,530
very good question.
Did Joseph hit those names

1367
01:25:22,530 --> 01:25:25,690
correctly?
Here we go, here we go.

1368
01:25:27,850 --> 01:25:30,610
He correctly identified them as
representing gods.

1369
01:25:30,610 --> 01:25:34,090
How would he have known that?
And he would have said those are

1370
01:25:34,090 --> 01:25:38,210
just animal statues, right?
Nibbly identified the names of

1371
01:25:38,210 --> 01:25:41,300
these gods.
Collectively called the Sons of

1372
01:25:41,300 --> 01:25:46,340
Horus as gods, identified with
the four lands adjacent to

1373
01:25:46,340 --> 01:25:48,500
Egypt.
These same gods are represented

1374
01:25:48,500 --> 01:25:53,180
in the second facsimile, the
Hypocephalus, where Joe's again

1375
01:25:53,300 --> 01:25:55,620
hits a nail on the head.
They're the same, only in a

1376
01:25:55,620 --> 01:26:01,060
different context, so Elkana.
So they're identified with the

1377
01:26:01,060 --> 01:26:05,340
four lands that border Egypt,
representing the cardinal

1378
01:26:05,340 --> 01:26:08,300
directions.
El Cannah is Canaan on the West,

1379
01:26:08,340 --> 01:26:14,260
Libnah, Libya on the north,
Momakura, Anatolia on the South,

1380
01:26:14,260 --> 01:26:19,260
on the north, I'm sorry, I'm on
the east, Canaan on the West,

1381
01:26:19,260 --> 01:26:24,340
Libya on the north Anatolia and
on the South Korosh or Kush.

1382
01:26:25,260 --> 01:26:29,180
The east, West, North and South
orientation of these lands is

1383
01:26:29,180 --> 01:26:31,900
consistent with the tradition
that these sons of forest.

1384
01:26:32,360 --> 01:26:35,880
Or guardians of the Pillars,
which formed the four cardinal

1385
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:39,480
points.
I'm sure it's just a

1386
01:26:39,480 --> 01:26:41,960
coincidence.
That's Bell.

1387
01:26:41,960 --> 01:26:43,640
That's a bell ringer for sure.
Ding I'm.

1388
01:26:43,760 --> 01:26:45,520
Sure.
It's just a coincidence, Ken.

1389
01:26:47,520 --> 01:26:49,040
You're not playing my game,
right?

1390
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:50,280
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.

1391
01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:52,280
It is a hit.
It is a hit.

1392
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:54,600
Now just say Ding Ding once.
Let me hear what that sounds

1393
01:26:54,600 --> 01:26:55,600
like.
Ding, Ding.

1394
01:26:56,260 --> 01:26:59,620
No, you don't do that anymore.
Don't do that anymore.

1395
01:26:59,780 --> 01:27:00,340
Fair.
Enough.

1396
01:27:00,380 --> 01:27:02,380
I was trying to save you from
that, but you.

1397
01:27:04,260 --> 01:27:07,980
So here they have in the exact
same order.

1398
01:27:07,980 --> 01:27:10,380
These were not placed there by
some Mormon.

1399
01:27:11,300 --> 01:27:16,700
This is what you see from the
British Museum, these four gods.

1400
01:27:17,020 --> 01:27:19,540
Now, I think we haven't answered
you a question about those

1401
01:27:19,540 --> 01:27:23,340
marks.
Those aren't marks that look

1402
01:27:23,340 --> 01:27:27,480
like a sash.
Yeah.

1403
01:27:29,240 --> 01:27:35,240
Interesting.
Now here's one of my favorite

1404
01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:39,040
ones.
Look at Figure 9, which Joseph

1405
01:27:39,040 --> 01:27:41,240
Smith says is the idolatrous God
of Pharaoh.

1406
01:27:41,480 --> 01:27:44,760
That creature right there.
It looks like an alligator or a

1407
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:46,840
crocodile.
I would have said a mole because

1408
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:48,320
it's under the ground or
something.

1409
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:50,680
I didn't, doesn't.
I didn't see alligator

1410
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:51,440
crocodile.
Right.

1411
01:27:51,440 --> 01:27:53,720
I'm just looking at the tip of
the tail down there and it's.

1412
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:54,080
Got.
Yeah.

1413
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:55,080
Yeah.
Ohh, there you go.

1414
01:27:56,310 --> 01:27:59,550
So Joseph, I could be wrong.
But who in the right mind?

1415
01:27:59,550 --> 01:28:03,230
Or say, oh, that's that's the
God of Pharaoh, right?

1416
01:28:04,430 --> 01:28:07,590
We know who that is.
Egyptian history historians now

1417
01:28:07,630 --> 01:28:11,590
know it's Sebek, or more
contemporary, they call it Sobek

1418
01:28:12,070 --> 01:28:15,830
the Crocodile, appropriately
identified by Joseph Smith as

1419
01:28:15,830 --> 01:28:18,470
the adulter scholar of Pharaoh,
according to thebe and

1420
01:28:18,470 --> 01:28:20,670
tradition, the capital of
ancient Egypt, the pharaoh's

1421
01:28:20,670 --> 01:28:24,340
claim upon the throne.
Was based upon his relationship

1422
01:28:24,340 --> 01:28:29,300
with the Crocodile God Civic, or
Sobic, the Crocodile God who

1423
01:28:29,300 --> 01:28:32,580
helped Horace take his seat upon
the throne of his father,

1424
01:28:32,580 --> 01:28:35,700
Osiris.
Obviously, then, there is

1425
01:28:35,700 --> 01:28:37,820
fitting reason to call Civic the
God of Pharaoh.

1426
01:28:39,380 --> 01:28:41,500
Gotcha.
That's a that's a big hit.

1427
01:28:41,780 --> 01:28:45,100
Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding.
How many, how many we going to

1428
01:28:45,100 --> 01:28:49,420
give Joseph Smith before we say
all right, OK, OK, he somehow

1429
01:28:49,420 --> 01:28:52,430
knew this.
How many?

1430
01:28:53,270 --> 01:28:54,630
I think we're at that limit.
What are we?

1431
01:28:55,470 --> 01:28:58,230
I can't see we're.
I think we're four out of four,

1432
01:28:58,630 --> 01:29:01,590
yeah.
Now, down here at the very

1433
01:29:01,590 --> 01:29:07,230
bottom, these pillars still
looking Why are pillars under

1434
01:29:07,230 --> 01:29:11,350
the ground?
I would never say that I would,

1435
01:29:11,670 --> 01:29:13,430
I would just.
I would think that wasn't just

1436
01:29:13,430 --> 01:29:15,870
an artifact of decoration.
Right.

1437
01:29:17,010 --> 01:29:20,210
But the fact is that's commonly
understood, so common.

1438
01:29:20,370 --> 01:29:22,850
No one has ever challenged,
chose this misinterpretation of

1439
01:29:22,850 --> 01:29:27,250
this before anything new.
Anybody knew anything about

1440
01:29:27,250 --> 01:29:30,650
Egyptology?
These pillars are appropriately

1441
01:29:30,650 --> 01:29:37,890
placed under the heavens.
Oh, so Sobek, my daughter Scott

1442
01:29:37,890 --> 01:29:42,370
of Pharaoh is in the heavens.
What are the heavens doing

1443
01:29:42,370 --> 01:29:45,250
underneath the cow?
That's just what the Egyptians

1444
01:29:45,250 --> 01:29:47,310
do.
How would Joseph Smith know that

1445
01:29:48,070 --> 01:29:51,150
what that guy had such an
instinct guesser.

1446
01:29:51,150 --> 01:29:53,510
It was amazing.
Pretty good guesser.

1447
01:29:54,470 --> 01:29:57,270
The pillars there, even though
the heavens portrayed appear

1448
01:29:57,270 --> 01:30:01,430
beneath the earth, but he nailed
it straight up.

1449
01:30:01,990 --> 01:30:07,550
That's still not my favorite one
though, so the author of this

1450
01:30:07,550 --> 01:30:11,590
book from which I'm getting
there was printed in 1987.

1451
01:30:11,590 --> 01:30:17,680
It was really quite amazing.
He concludes there is nothing no

1452
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:21,760
thing in the interpretation of
Facsimile One or in the text of

1453
01:30:21,760 --> 01:30:24,360
the first chapter of Abraham
that is not appropriately

1454
01:30:24,360 --> 01:30:26,880
represented by the Egyptian
symbols.

1455
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:30,680
In this vignette one must also
add that during the months of

1456
01:30:30,680 --> 01:30:36,880
March and May of 1842, Joseph
Smith published all the material

1457
01:30:36,880 --> 01:30:39,680
that now constitutes the Book of
Abraham in the times and

1458
01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:41,360
seasons.
That's that's where we got it.

1459
01:30:42,400 --> 01:30:46,600
Symbols that were damaged and
replaced by Joseph Smith or by

1460
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:49,160
his inspiration.
He was capable of making

1461
01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:52,840
accurate and reasonable
judgments concerning the meaning

1462
01:30:52,840 --> 01:30:54,920
or form of the hieroglyphic
science.

1463
01:30:55,640 --> 01:30:59,160
It is difficult to believe that
this outcome could be achieved

1464
01:30:59,160 --> 01:31:01,840
by anyone except the prophet of
God.

1465
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:07,520
Look, if you just start taking
statistics right?

1466
01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:10,440
Let's look at the sciences.
Statistical probability.

1467
01:31:10,910 --> 01:31:14,270
The fact that Joseph Smith is
going to hit that right?

1468
01:31:14,390 --> 01:31:17,750
And and look, it's not like he's
hitting it in the day that this

1469
01:31:17,750 --> 01:31:21,710
information is known.
He's hitting this long before

1470
01:31:21,710 --> 01:31:24,070
Egypt.
Egyptology was really a thing,

1471
01:31:24,710 --> 01:31:27,190
right?
Yeah, and the other cool thing

1472
01:31:27,190 --> 01:31:30,830
about it, I mean, Abraham has
reference to the Restore Gospel,

1473
01:31:31,070 --> 01:31:35,110
but the other aspects of it,
like the four gods of the

1474
01:31:35,110 --> 01:31:39,030
cardinal directions, doesn't
have anything to do or Sobeck.

1475
01:31:39,500 --> 01:31:42,100
That doesn't have anything to do
with the restored gospel.

1476
01:31:42,740 --> 01:31:47,060
He was just showing off.
It's not necessary knowledge.

1477
01:31:48,180 --> 01:31:50,740
He was just, we've been able to
do this one for give him a

1478
01:31:50,740 --> 01:31:57,260
freebie, you know, that's crazy.
I love this.

1479
01:31:58,020 --> 01:32:01,860
I love this.
We're going to start, by the

1480
01:32:01,860 --> 01:32:05,980
way, when you look at this
hypocephalus, which is Greek for

1481
01:32:05,980 --> 01:32:12,980
under hypocephalus, the head.
This amulet which is gone, you

1482
01:32:12,980 --> 01:32:15,460
know where it is.
It's ashes, I suppose.

1483
01:32:17,380 --> 01:32:22,660
On this hypocephalus you will
see vignettes or ideograms, and

1484
01:32:22,660 --> 01:32:24,700
then you will see actual
hieroglyphics.

1485
01:32:26,180 --> 01:32:29,180
The fact that we can read the
hieroglyphics at all is a

1486
01:32:29,180 --> 01:32:33,420
miracle, because the original
scribe who knows what his

1487
01:32:33,420 --> 01:32:37,540
penmanship was like, and then
what was his name?

1488
01:32:37,540 --> 01:32:42,390
Hedrick Headlock.
The guy who did, who knows if

1489
01:32:42,390 --> 01:32:44,750
his carvings were accurate,
right?

1490
01:32:45,590 --> 01:32:48,350
So when we get into Fact simile
3, there's actually an issue of

1491
01:32:48,350 --> 01:32:51,070
how actually to interpret those.
And to interpret them, you have

1492
01:32:51,070 --> 01:32:54,310
to have some contextual ideas.
So Egyptology is really if

1493
01:32:54,310 --> 01:32:56,750
you're going to take a crack at
it, you got to know some of that

1494
01:32:56,750 --> 01:33:00,470
stuff.
In any case, the outer ring of

1495
01:33:00,470 --> 01:33:05,350
this amulet starts at the very
top, and it's read

1496
01:33:05,350 --> 01:33:11,090
counterclockwise.
Joseph Smith said to be given in

1497
01:33:11,090 --> 01:33:15,130
the own due time of the Lord,
and that's what he said.

1498
01:33:15,330 --> 01:33:17,450
You'll see.
That's Hieroglyphic.

1499
01:33:17,530 --> 01:33:20,490
This section is hieroglyphic.
This section is hieroglyphic.

1500
01:33:20,890 --> 01:33:23,650
This section is hieroglyphic.
He didn't interpret any of the

1501
01:33:23,650 --> 01:33:26,210
hieroglyphs, said the same thing
about all of them.

1502
01:33:26,290 --> 01:33:29,610
In the own Due Time of the Lord.
He did interpret all of the

1503
01:33:29,610 --> 01:33:34,850
ideagrams, all of vignettes,
which is very, also very

1504
01:33:34,850 --> 01:33:39,950
interesting, but.
What does that outer ring say?

1505
01:33:41,310 --> 01:33:44,070
The inscription written around
the outer edge of the the

1506
01:33:44,430 --> 01:33:46,750
hypocephalus represents the Eye
of RAW.

1507
01:33:46,750 --> 01:33:49,550
So when you go to the Saint
George tab on that Tavern,

1508
01:33:49,550 --> 01:33:52,470
actually the Allseeing eye up on
the wall, which weirds people

1509
01:33:52,470 --> 01:33:56,510
out, that's the eye.
That's the eye of God borrowed

1510
01:33:56,510 --> 01:33:57,950
from.
Yeah, it's on the dollar bill.

1511
01:33:57,950 --> 01:34:01,670
All this sort of stuff.
The eye on the Joseph Hypo

1512
01:34:01,790 --> 01:34:06,750
brought together the God Osiris,
raw named Giebati.

1513
01:34:07,580 --> 01:34:12,500
With the primal beginning in
Heliopolis and the reenactment

1514
01:34:12,540 --> 01:34:16,900
of the that creative moment in
behalf of the deceased owner of

1515
01:34:16,900 --> 01:34:19,820
the hypocephalus, what vicarious
stuff?

1516
01:34:20,620 --> 01:34:23,420
And the owner of the
hypocephalus was Osiris

1517
01:34:23,580 --> 01:34:26,780
Shashank.
So his proper name was Shashank.

1518
01:34:28,060 --> 01:34:33,660
Poor guy.
Sorry, I'm going to go there.

1519
01:34:34,060 --> 01:34:37,720
Well, that's really interesting.
Is that he is added to his

1520
01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:44,120
proper name, God's name.
He's taken upon himself the name

1521
01:34:44,120 --> 01:34:47,120
of God.
Right, that sounds.

1522
01:34:47,680 --> 01:34:52,160
He's never heard of that.
Thus, in doing so, Sheshank is

1523
01:34:52,160 --> 01:34:57,000
identified with the gods.
Which is what in subsequent

1524
01:34:57,000 --> 01:34:59,520
discussions about the Gypsian
Nadalla, that's very big deal.

1525
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:05,160
His very name, Debathi, is the
name of the robing room.

1526
01:35:05,580 --> 01:35:11,340
In the temples of Heliopolis and
in both Karnak and Medina Abu

1527
01:35:11,340 --> 01:35:14,620
that I talked about, you can't
enter the temple until you've

1528
01:35:14,620 --> 01:35:18,580
been washed, anointed and robed,
clothed.

1529
01:35:19,180 --> 01:35:20,940
But for some reason it sounds so
familiar.

1530
01:35:20,940 --> 01:35:25,780
Where have I heard that before?
I can't remember.

1531
01:35:25,780 --> 01:35:28,060
You're just imagining stuff.
Right.

1532
01:35:28,060 --> 01:35:31,860
My bad, my bad.
The temples of Heliopolis, the

1533
01:35:31,860 --> 01:35:34,780
place of endowment, where he
receives powers.

1534
01:35:35,350 --> 01:35:40,750
And attributes of divinity, when
we get to that other topic,

1535
01:35:41,790 --> 01:35:47,990
there's a my favorite photograph
in Hugh Nibley's Egyptian

1536
01:35:47,990 --> 01:35:51,270
endowment of the initiate.
At the end of making all of

1537
01:35:51,270 --> 01:35:55,190
these covenants in that temple
at the very end, before he

1538
01:35:55,190 --> 01:35:59,510
enters the the throne room is
what they call it.

1539
01:35:59,590 --> 01:36:03,550
They call it the Holy Foleys if
we're passing through the veil.

1540
01:36:04,570 --> 01:36:10,050
It shows him embracing the God
of the temple, a very specific

1541
01:36:10,050 --> 01:36:15,290
embrace.
And it says what the God of the

1542
01:36:15,290 --> 01:36:18,170
temple is whispering in the ear
of the initiate.

1543
01:36:20,210 --> 01:36:24,570
Any endowed latter day St. would
read that and go Holy smokes.

1544
01:36:25,650 --> 01:36:27,770
Yeah, yeah, the.
The.

1545
01:36:28,170 --> 01:36:32,770
Same stuff in the same.
Order, look and.

1546
01:36:32,770 --> 01:36:38,360
And here's the thing, right.
We know, and this is the part of

1547
01:36:38,360 --> 01:36:42,800
the story we didn't really go
into, we know that Abraham was

1548
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:47,240
in Egypt for for a while, right?
Even though we have an

1549
01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:51,600
abbreviated version in in
Genesis.

1550
01:36:51,640 --> 01:36:54,600
And I would even say it's
somewhat abbreviated in the

1551
01:36:54,600 --> 01:36:56,520
Pearl of Great Prize, right?
Of course it is.

1552
01:36:56,720 --> 01:36:58,680
All of our scriptures are
abbreviated all of them.

1553
01:36:59,520 --> 01:37:01,680
We know that he taught them
astronomy.

1554
01:37:02,130 --> 01:37:06,770
We know that he taught them many
things, and I would imagine that

1555
01:37:06,770 --> 01:37:11,770
Abraham, like any good minister
of the Gospel, is looking for

1556
01:37:11,770 --> 01:37:15,410
converts.
He's doing his missionary work.

1557
01:37:16,010 --> 01:37:22,050
And in so doing, if Abraham was
really there, we should expect

1558
01:37:22,050 --> 01:37:24,530
to see these things line up,
right?

1559
01:37:24,530 --> 01:37:29,690
We should expect to see echoes
of the knowledge that was passed

1560
01:37:29,690 --> 01:37:32,200
on.
The number of mentions in

1561
01:37:32,200 --> 01:37:36,720
ancient literature of Abraham in
Egypt number in the hundreds,

1562
01:37:37,760 --> 01:37:40,200
hundreds.
There's a whole book about it

1563
01:37:40,560 --> 01:37:44,520
about just that thing.
Let's not forget that that

1564
01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:49,680
Egypt, for whatever reason,
seems to be very prominent

1565
01:37:49,680 --> 01:37:52,920
throughout all of of the Hebrew
scriptures.

1566
01:37:52,920 --> 01:37:58,240
Certainly right you have Joseph
that gets sold into Egypt later

1567
01:37:58,240 --> 01:38:03,860
becomes Egypt's hero.
Then Egypt, you know, figures in

1568
01:38:03,860 --> 01:38:06,020
prominently by enslaving the
Hebrews.

1569
01:38:06,820 --> 01:38:09,340
And then Christ goes back to
Egypt.

1570
01:38:11,300 --> 01:38:15,500
I shouldn't say back.
He goes to Egypt as a young

1571
01:38:15,500 --> 01:38:20,060
child to save his life.
And so in, in many ways, we

1572
01:38:20,060 --> 01:38:23,540
should very much expect to see
these echoes coming out of

1573
01:38:23,540 --> 01:38:26,500
Egypt, right?
It seems to figure in very

1574
01:38:26,500 --> 01:38:29,660
prominently within the Hebrew
story.

1575
01:38:30,270 --> 01:38:32,710
The book of Abraham, ironically,
is the one that gives us the

1576
01:38:32,750 --> 01:38:37,350
origin of Egypt, who found it,
how they found it, and that Noah

1577
01:38:37,350 --> 01:38:44,190
himself went there and blessed
the first Pharaoh, and comment

1578
01:38:44,190 --> 01:38:47,470
and praise the Pharaoh for being
a wise and a just man.

1579
01:38:49,310 --> 01:38:53,030
And and that Pharaoh
intentionally attempted to

1580
01:38:53,030 --> 01:38:56,870
duplicate the order of the
priest and of the fathers, even

1581
01:38:56,870 --> 01:38:58,710
though he did not have that
authority.

1582
01:38:59,190 --> 01:39:00,510
He was still trying to do a good
thing.

1583
01:39:00,510 --> 01:39:04,070
So we asked why should there be
any similarity between the early

1584
01:39:04,070 --> 01:39:06,110
Egyptian rights and the
Endowment?

1585
01:39:06,310 --> 01:39:07,830
That's why.
Right.

1586
01:39:07,870 --> 01:39:10,790
That first Pharaoh was trying to
duplicate it, and how would he

1587
01:39:10,790 --> 01:39:13,350
know?
Because he'd seen Noah do it.

1588
01:39:14,390 --> 01:39:18,430
And and the implications for
this are huge, which I think

1589
01:39:19,470 --> 01:39:22,430
look most of the time I don't
think it's a.

1590
01:39:22,430 --> 01:39:23,190
Good.
Ham knew it.

1591
01:39:23,190 --> 01:39:24,790
Sorry.
What's that?

1592
01:39:25,230 --> 01:39:26,190
And Ham knew it.
I'm sorry.

1593
01:39:26,190 --> 01:39:26,830
I was.
It's a.

1594
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:31,280
Was a big, big missing link and
knew it initially.

1595
01:39:31,560 --> 01:39:34,600
Yeah, the the implications to
this are huge.

1596
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:42,960
I don't feel like most of the
time people who who try to say

1597
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:47,840
hey, but the book Abraham is
false are sitting around a smoke

1598
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:50,880
filled backroom making the
stories up.

1599
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:54,880
I mean, maybe there's a couple,
but I think most people.

1600
01:39:56,140 --> 01:39:59,340
Are just kind of playing right
into the adversary's hands.

1601
01:40:00,060 --> 01:40:05,700
Because here here's the thing.
If this is what it appears to

1602
01:40:05,700 --> 01:40:09,820
be, what I believe it to be,
then the implications are

1603
01:40:09,820 --> 01:40:13,580
massive, right.
We we all of a sudden have

1604
01:40:13,860 --> 01:40:17,700
record of an endowment that is
ancient, right?

1605
01:40:18,020 --> 01:40:22,060
So many and and I think they try
their best.

1606
01:40:22,180 --> 01:40:24,300
So I don't want to bag on them
as.

1607
01:40:24,930 --> 01:40:28,250
As guys out there intentionally,
you know, spreading falsehood.

1608
01:40:28,650 --> 01:40:31,490
But I've I've heard some LDS
scholars and some Mormon

1609
01:40:31,490 --> 01:40:35,290
scholars claim that you know
well, the LDS endowment is for

1610
01:40:35,330 --> 01:40:37,770
us today.
It doesn't have ancient roots.

1611
01:40:38,290 --> 01:40:41,970
Well, I I beg to differ on this.
If, if this is what it appears

1612
01:40:41,970 --> 01:40:45,650
to be, and then we have all this
other supporting evidence, the

1613
01:40:45,650 --> 01:40:49,690
implications are huge.
The implications then then

1614
01:40:49,690 --> 01:40:53,170
become you can see the
consistent.

1615
01:40:54,210 --> 01:40:57,770
The way God has dealt with his
children all the way through.

1616
01:40:57,930 --> 01:41:03,810
Oh my goodness the the the
temple rights are so foreign to

1617
01:41:03,810 --> 01:41:05,770
modern humans they're so
different.

1618
01:41:07,970 --> 01:41:13,730
President Nelson at a recent
within the past few years, when

1619
01:41:13,730 --> 01:41:19,610
he was prophet or when he Lolly
was prophet at the end of the

1620
01:41:19,610 --> 01:41:23,640
general Conference, he said.
I testify, and this is out of

1621
01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:28,280
the blue, unrelated to his talk,
but he said I testify that our

1622
01:41:28,280 --> 01:41:31,960
temple ordinances are of ancient
origin.

1623
01:41:33,200 --> 01:41:35,960
I got.
I was like, yes, he's reading it

1624
01:41:35,960 --> 01:41:37,200
too.
This is awesome.

1625
01:41:38,000 --> 01:41:40,760
He's no dummy.
They know.

1626
01:41:41,200 --> 01:41:48,480
And for me in in my book Right
Under Temple Rights, I list all

1627
01:41:48,480 --> 01:41:51,880
of the congruences.
And every aspect of what we do

1628
01:41:51,880 --> 01:41:54,360
is there.
I you know, I don't connect the

1629
01:41:54,360 --> 01:41:56,560
dots, so I don't give him
anything away that I'm not

1630
01:41:56,560 --> 01:41:59,920
supposed to.
But that section of my book

1631
01:41:59,920 --> 01:42:06,560
alone is 50 pages.
And for me to read the most

1632
01:42:06,560 --> 01:42:11,600
exciting ones are the accounts
of Jesus Christ himself teaching

1633
01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:16,640
temple rights to his disciples.
I get so excited about doing

1634
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:19,840
that myself in the temple.
Because I'm not just going

1635
01:42:19,840 --> 01:42:21,240
through it out of a sense of
duty.

1636
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:24,960
I'm going through it with my
eyes open, knowing full well

1637
01:42:26,160 --> 01:42:30,920
that Jesus taught the very same
things, the same covenants, the

1638
01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:36,200
same symbols, the.
Same clothing well and and they

1639
01:42:36,200 --> 01:42:37,920
did.
It they did it as anciently as

1640
01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:40,840
Egypt for kind out love.
Well, and and and here's an

1641
01:42:40,840 --> 01:42:45,480
important thing too that that I
have talked with a buddy of mine

1642
01:42:45,480 --> 01:42:48,200
on on the podcast before, Joshua
Erickson.

1643
01:42:48,680 --> 01:42:52,920
Who seeks to keep a lot of
Hebrewism alive within

1644
01:42:53,360 --> 01:42:57,840
Mormonism?
Is that Mormonism and he and and

1645
01:42:57,840 --> 01:43:02,240
and the the Jewish religion
share a lot of common traits,

1646
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:06,600
right?
One of those traits are we come

1647
01:43:06,600 --> 01:43:12,560
to know our ancestors through
experience, right?

1648
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:14,960
We try to experience the same
things they did.

1649
01:43:15,350 --> 01:43:17,190
Right.
If you look at like the

1650
01:43:17,190 --> 01:43:23,470
Passover, right, all those
things are are are trying to get

1651
01:43:23,470 --> 01:43:26,150
you to put yourself into their
place.

1652
01:43:26,550 --> 01:43:31,390
Now me and you, our views of
Adam are going to be a little

1653
01:43:31,390 --> 01:43:34,550
different.
When are we going to have that

1654
01:43:34,550 --> 01:43:38,670
conversation?
We'll have it someday, but not.

1655
01:43:39,270 --> 01:43:43,620
Today but.
What what I'll say is, is no

1656
01:43:43,620 --> 01:43:48,100
matter how you view Abraham, I
mean, excuse me, Adam, you're

1657
01:43:48,100 --> 01:43:51,620
putting yourself in his place
through the endowment.

1658
01:43:51,940 --> 01:43:56,740
It is a very Hebrew.
It is a very Jewish way of

1659
01:43:56,740 --> 01:43:59,740
teaching.
And it predates the Jews.

1660
01:44:00,260 --> 01:44:01,860
Yes.
Yes, that's.

1661
01:44:01,900 --> 01:44:03,020
That's the thing I love about
it.

1662
01:44:03,300 --> 01:44:06,780
It's not tied to any culture.
It's not tied to the Jews.

1663
01:44:06,780 --> 01:44:10,660
It's not tied to the Egyptians.
It's not tied to the Americans.

1664
01:44:11,580 --> 01:44:13,860
It's consistent, and that's
that.

1665
01:44:14,220 --> 01:44:16,020
That's why.
That's, I think, probably my

1666
01:44:16,020 --> 01:44:20,140
favorite section of my book.
You see that consistent thread

1667
01:44:20,140 --> 01:44:23,420
running through all these
different cultures, teaching the

1668
01:44:23,420 --> 01:44:27,620
same exact covenants?
Yep, same symbols, same

1669
01:44:27,620 --> 01:44:28,940
verbiage.
Yep.

1670
01:44:29,820 --> 01:44:31,580
Same context.
It's mind blowing.

1671
01:44:32,620 --> 01:44:34,420
Same.
Clothing, yeah.

1672
01:44:35,380 --> 01:44:38,380
Yeah.
It is so exciting to have that

1673
01:44:38,380 --> 01:44:41,580
knowledge when you're doing it,
and the fervor that you feel

1674
01:44:42,220 --> 01:44:45,260
with that knowledge that you're
not doing something phony,

1675
01:44:45,260 --> 01:44:49,540
you're doing something that was
instituted specifically by God

1676
01:44:50,220 --> 01:44:53,700
to help you consciously choose
to follow Him in very specific

1677
01:44:53,700 --> 01:44:55,660
ways.
I love that.

1678
01:44:59,500 --> 01:45:02,220
Speaking of that outer ring
again, this translation of the

1679
01:45:02,220 --> 01:45:05,260
text begins near the top of the
outer ring, continues

1680
01:45:05,260 --> 01:45:06,420
counterclockwise around the
ring.

1681
01:45:06,850 --> 01:45:10,090
Following is a transliteration
and accompanying translation of

1682
01:45:10,090 --> 01:45:12,810
that text by Egyptologist
Michael Rhodes.

1683
01:45:13,530 --> 01:45:19,250
I so starting up here I am
Debati, who is adorned or

1684
01:45:19,250 --> 01:45:23,650
clothed in the robing room in
the house bend bend.

1685
01:45:23,930 --> 01:45:25,890
In the house bend bend is the
temple.

1686
01:45:28,130 --> 01:45:32,810
So I am a Cyrus.
I'm this God who is clothed in

1687
01:45:32,810 --> 01:45:36,370
the robing room in the temple in
Heliopolis.

1688
01:45:37,590 --> 01:45:40,270
The House of Bendin was the
temple of the office in which

1689
01:45:40,470 --> 01:45:44,870
the Holy of Holies was occupied
by the pyramid shaped Ben Ben

1690
01:45:44,870 --> 01:45:51,430
stone which represents creation.
So in the own due time of the

1691
01:45:51,430 --> 01:45:53,870
Lord, well when you go to the
temple, that's the time of Lord

1692
01:45:53,870 --> 01:45:56,430
when you learn exactly what that
outer ring is talking.

1693
01:45:58,990 --> 01:46:01,190
And we can talk more about some
of these other Egyptian things,

1694
01:46:01,190 --> 01:46:04,660
but in the interest of time.
We won't, but it talks about the

1695
01:46:04,660 --> 01:46:12,020
sacred taking upon yourself a
Sacred Name facsimile 2 figure.

1696
01:46:12,140 --> 01:46:13,700
What does that say?
One.

1697
01:46:16,060 --> 01:46:19,820
It's blocked by my zoom thing
for signifying the first

1698
01:46:19,820 --> 01:46:22,340
creation nearest to the
Celestial or the residence of

1699
01:46:22,340 --> 01:46:26,380
God.
Is that Cola the God represented

1700
01:46:26,380 --> 01:46:30,820
with the two ram horned heads?
Is Numera, the Great Creator.

1701
01:46:31,280 --> 01:46:34,880
Often portrayed at a Potter's
wheel, fashioning human beings,

1702
01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:39,920
Numera is he who shines upon the
earth and is creator of all

1703
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:49,400
things.
Then this guy sitting on a boat,

1704
01:46:53,080 --> 01:46:56,240
That sceptre that he's holding
is an Egyptian hieroglyph, a

1705
01:46:56,240 --> 01:47:00,620
symbol of power.
And I don't know a lot of

1706
01:47:00,620 --> 01:47:03,180
Egyptian, but there are ones
that you see over and over again

1707
01:47:03,820 --> 01:47:05,700
that have particular
significance.

1708
01:47:05,700 --> 01:47:08,940
I want to show you one just for
just for fun.

1709
01:47:10,620 --> 01:47:16,900
It is this one here.
It's the looks like a cross but

1710
01:47:16,900 --> 01:47:21,460
with a loop on it on the top
that's called the Onk and that's

1711
01:47:21,460 --> 01:47:25,640
the symbol of eternal life.
That's fascinating.

1712
01:47:25,880 --> 01:47:28,320
And what we will see in the
Egyptian endowment conversation

1713
01:47:28,320 --> 01:47:31,440
we'll have later is that when
the initiate goes through the

1714
01:47:31,440 --> 01:47:35,680
temple, their images of the God
putting the onk in the initiates

1715
01:47:35,680 --> 01:47:46,520
mouth, symbolic of bestowing
eternal life, God sitting upon

1716
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:49,840
his throne clothes with power
and authority, with a crown of

1717
01:47:49,840 --> 01:47:53,600
eternal light upon his head,
representing also the grand

1718
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:55,780
keywords.
Of the holy priesthood,

1719
01:47:58,780 --> 01:48:02,940
Egyptologist will save the
hawkheaded raw with the sun disk

1720
01:48:02,980 --> 01:48:06,780
on his head.
Sun disk crown of eternal light.

1721
01:48:08,100 --> 01:48:13,380
Yeah.
Seated on the solar bark, which

1722
01:48:13,380 --> 01:48:16,660
we're going to learn the
significance of later in his

1723
01:48:16,660 --> 01:48:23,020
hand he holds the scepter,
symbol of dominion power, God

1724
01:48:23,020 --> 01:48:25,770
sitting upon his throne.
With a crown of, he turned a

1725
01:48:25,770 --> 01:48:29,170
light upon his head.
Wow, he's good.

1726
01:48:30,930 --> 01:48:35,690
He's a pretty good guesser.
This is my favorite one.

1727
01:48:37,490 --> 01:48:39,330
All right, I'm going to give you
a stab.

1728
01:48:39,330 --> 01:48:41,690
Use the spirit.
Tell me what Figure 4 is.

1729
01:48:49,730 --> 01:48:53,450
See I This is why I would make a
crappy profit.

1730
01:48:54,340 --> 01:48:57,820
Right, but that's my point.
Who would?

1731
01:48:57,820 --> 01:49:01,580
I mean, you know, if you if we
were just taking a stab at this.

1732
01:49:01,580 --> 01:49:05,900
Well, it looks like a hood
ornament to me on a rocking

1733
01:49:05,900 --> 01:49:08,100
chair.
I don't know, it's just dumb

1734
01:49:08,100 --> 01:49:13,620
stuff.
Well, this is and and here,

1735
01:49:14,220 --> 01:49:18,340
here's the other thing, right,
is that it's not like Joseph was

1736
01:49:18,340 --> 01:49:20,180
kind of like, well, maybe it
means this.

1737
01:49:20,380 --> 01:49:22,660
He was bold, right?
He put it out there.

1738
01:49:23,320 --> 01:49:26,200
Very succinctly, yeah.
He he put his rear out there and

1739
01:49:26,200 --> 01:49:29,200
said no, no, that's what that is
right, and said it with

1740
01:49:29,200 --> 01:49:34,040
confidence and with with
conviction, not knowing it

1741
01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:37,880
wouldn't be proven correct for
100 years or better.

1742
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:45,240
Yes, yes, yes.
Because I mean, if you were just

1743
01:49:45,240 --> 01:49:47,480
faking it, surely somebody's
going to find out about it

1744
01:49:47,480 --> 01:49:52,120
sooner or later, right?
So this symbol signifies 2

1745
01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:55,690
things.
Expanse or the firmament of the

1746
01:49:55,690 --> 01:50:00,490
heavens and also Egyptian,
meaning 1000.

1747
01:50:02,410 --> 01:50:08,210
How the hell do we get that?
Egyptologists say the mummified

1748
01:50:08,210 --> 01:50:14,330
hawk is what it is, is a symbol
of the sky or as a

1749
01:50:14,330 --> 01:50:19,250
representation of the expanse of
heaven with wings outstretched

1750
01:50:19,250 --> 01:50:23,050
while there's one?
The SEC Air boat that it's

1751
01:50:23,050 --> 01:50:26,770
sitting on is called the Ship of
1000.

1752
01:50:28,770 --> 01:50:33,050
Stop.
Wow.

1753
01:50:34,770 --> 01:50:37,370
That's a.
That's a double.

1754
01:50:37,850 --> 01:50:40,490
That's a double bonus.
That's a hell of a bull's eye.

1755
01:50:45,450 --> 01:50:47,210
Wow.
Let's let's assume that he was

1756
01:50:47,250 --> 01:50:49,490
only kind of close with the
others, but nailed this one.

1757
01:50:49,970 --> 01:50:51,610
It would still make you squint
and go.

1758
01:50:51,610 --> 01:50:54,170
How did he do that?
Yeah.

1759
01:50:57,650 --> 01:51:01,970
And here we have the sons of
Horace again, which here he

1760
01:51:01,970 --> 01:51:04,450
labels the earth and it's four
quarters.

1761
01:51:06,130 --> 01:51:07,410
Does he mean by the four
quarters?

1762
01:51:08,170 --> 01:51:12,410
OK, so yeah, tying right back.
To the the border cardinal

1763
01:51:12,410 --> 01:51:15,410
direction.
Yeah, OK.

1764
01:51:16,210 --> 01:51:18,610
So he and the author of the
book, he said.

1765
01:51:19,170 --> 01:51:21,770
The consistency between those
two is stunning.

1766
01:51:21,770 --> 01:51:24,850
That's another lucky guess.
Now now let me ask you this, is

1767
01:51:24,850 --> 01:51:28,410
there any significance that that
portion of of of the vignette

1768
01:51:28,410 --> 01:51:36,290
there is like inverted?
I read once, I think it's just,

1769
01:51:37,690 --> 01:51:39,850
I don't think so.
I think it's just because it's

1770
01:51:39,850 --> 01:51:44,370
on the bottom and I think that,
well, if you go around the ring

1771
01:51:44,370 --> 01:51:47,170
on the circle I'm pointing with
my finger, you can't see that.

1772
01:51:48,120 --> 01:51:52,760
And those hieroglyphs are upside
down also, so maybe I don't

1773
01:51:52,760 --> 01:51:53,960
know.
I don't.

1774
01:51:54,440 --> 01:51:56,280
If there is a significance, I'm
not aware of it.

1775
01:51:59,560 --> 01:52:02,560
Now we get to the most
controversial facsimile of all,

1776
01:52:03,680 --> 01:52:08,520
facsimile #3.
Abraham's sitting on Pharaoh's

1777
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:12,080
throne.
Not only that, he's gender

1778
01:52:12,080 --> 01:52:17,400
confused, he's calling girls
boys, but fit right in today.

1779
01:52:21,230 --> 01:52:24,590
The Figure 1.
Abraham sits upon Pharaoh's

1780
01:52:24,630 --> 01:52:29,350
throne by the plights of the
king with a crown upon his head,

1781
01:52:29,670 --> 01:52:32,590
representing the priesthood as
emblematic of the grand

1782
01:52:32,590 --> 01:52:38,230
presidency in heaven, with the
scepter of justice and judgment

1783
01:52:38,670 --> 01:52:44,700
in his hand.
There are enough instances where

1784
01:52:44,700 --> 01:52:50,260
Abraham appears in context
normally occupied by Osiris that

1785
01:52:50,260 --> 01:52:54,420
we must conclude Egyptians did
see some sort of connection

1786
01:52:55,420 --> 01:53:00,060
between Pharaoh and Abraham.
It is especially noteworthy, as

1787
01:53:00,060 --> 01:53:05,140
seen above, that Abraham appears
as a substitute for Osiris in

1788
01:53:05,140 --> 01:53:08,900
ways associated with the
judgment of the dead or a

1789
01:53:08,900 --> 01:53:12,940
postmortem declaration.
Of the deceased's worthiness,

1790
01:53:19,060 --> 01:53:25,260
this next one was probably the
weirdest one of all, boy or

1791
01:53:25,260 --> 01:53:31,140
girl.
I mean, look, it's a.

1792
01:53:31,180 --> 01:53:36,100
Girl, it's a girl.
And look, she's got the onk in

1793
01:53:36,100 --> 01:53:38,660
her hand.
The key to return alive anyway.

1794
01:53:41,060 --> 01:53:44,900
What's that say?
I can't see his son whose name

1795
01:53:44,900 --> 01:53:51,860
is given in the characters above
his head, can you?

1796
01:53:51,860 --> 01:53:54,660
What is that?
I can't even remember what I put

1797
01:53:54,660 --> 01:54:00,980
there and look it up real quick.
With the idea of the Great Lady

1798
01:54:00,980 --> 01:54:04,020
Isis actually personifying the
throne and not.

1799
01:54:04,060 --> 01:54:06,300
At the very top.
In fact similar 3 Figure 2

1800
01:54:06,660 --> 01:54:08,220
something something whose name
is given.

1801
01:54:09,400 --> 01:54:10,600
And the characters above his
head.

1802
01:54:11,680 --> 01:54:14,920
King oh, King Pharaoh, King
Pharaoh.

1803
01:54:16,080 --> 01:54:22,080
So Joseph is taking this girl
and double whammied himself.

1804
01:54:22,840 --> 01:54:27,000
No, this is King Pharaoh and
whose name is given in the

1805
01:54:27,000 --> 01:54:33,880
characters above his head, which
people have interpreted.

1806
01:54:33,880 --> 01:54:37,440
We've read that.
And it doesn't say Pharaoh.

1807
01:54:37,480 --> 01:54:44,560
It says ISIS.
What's going on with the idea of

1808
01:54:44,560 --> 01:54:49,720
the great Lady Isis actually
personifying the throne and

1809
01:54:49,720 --> 01:54:53,600
thereby the Egyptian kingship?
The incongruity?

1810
01:54:53,600 --> 01:54:56,960
Because there's precedent that
ISIS represents kingship.

1811
01:54:59,080 --> 01:55:01,600
The the incongruity of Joseph
Smith's identification.

1812
01:55:01,600 --> 01:55:03,640
Figure 2.
In fact, simile as king, Pharaoh

1813
01:55:03,640 --> 01:55:07,720
begins to dissolve.
But I read something very

1814
01:55:07,720 --> 01:55:09,440
interesting.
That's another possibility.

1815
01:55:12,920 --> 01:55:19,760
And I I remember getting I got
this off of some debate page and

1816
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:22,120
I couldn't source it again.
I'm glad I copied it.

1817
01:55:23,120 --> 01:55:25,600
But these aren't my words.
I've had them quotations, but I

1818
01:55:25,600 --> 01:55:28,320
don't know who was that said it
because it's as the Internet

1819
01:55:28,320 --> 01:55:29,760
goes, it's gone.
Right.

1820
01:55:30,840 --> 01:55:32,200
It makes it very interesting
point.

1821
01:55:32,200 --> 01:55:34,360
Here's what Joseph Smith
actually said.

1822
01:55:35,170 --> 01:55:38,730
In his Facsimile 3, Figure 2
Explanation King Pharaoh whose

1823
01:55:38,730 --> 01:55:43,530
name is given in the characters
above his head, Joseph's use of

1824
01:55:43,530 --> 01:55:47,410
the word head in Figure 2 should
stick out like a sore thumb, in

1825
01:55:47,410 --> 01:55:51,530
contrast to his use of the word
hand in other instances.

1826
01:55:52,450 --> 01:55:57,810
And all the other figures he
said the name is above their

1827
01:55:57,810 --> 01:55:58,970
hand.
It's above their hand.

1828
01:55:58,970 --> 01:56:01,930
It's above their hand.
In the case of figure two, he

1829
01:56:01,930 --> 01:56:06,230
didn't say that.
In figures four and five, Joseph

1830
01:56:06,230 --> 01:56:09,950
refers to the characters above
the hand and above his hand

1831
01:56:09,950 --> 01:56:12,230
respectively.
But in figure two, he says above

1832
01:56:12,230 --> 01:56:17,150
his head, not above his hand.
If Joseph wanted to refer to the

1833
01:56:17,150 --> 01:56:20,350
characters above figure Two's
hand, he could have said hand

1834
01:56:20,350 --> 01:56:22,230
like he did in the other cases,
but he didn't.

1835
01:56:24,230 --> 01:56:29,390
So what is above figure Two's
head that?

1836
01:56:33,780 --> 01:56:34,540
So his.
Name.

1837
01:56:35,220 --> 01:56:37,260
His name is given in the
characters above his head.

1838
01:56:38,660 --> 01:56:41,780
The characters above the hand
don't give the name of Pharaoh,

1839
01:56:42,380 --> 01:56:45,740
but the characters above the
head give some interesting

1840
01:56:45,740 --> 01:56:47,580
convergences with Joseph
explanation.

1841
01:56:47,580 --> 01:56:52,700
The symbol is a sun disc with
horns which often represents the

1842
01:56:52,700 --> 01:56:57,260
House of Horace, Egypt and
Horace is who the king.

1843
01:56:58,370 --> 01:57:01,450
Egyptologists might not
recognize it as representing

1844
01:57:01,450 --> 01:57:05,850
that in this context, but it
does nevertheless have that

1845
01:57:05,890 --> 01:57:09,410
underlying meaning, thus giving
a convergence with the name of

1846
01:57:09,410 --> 01:57:14,970
Pharaoh, which is Horace.
As Joseph Smith said, that's

1847
01:57:14,970 --> 01:57:18,370
cool.
That was not too long ago.

1848
01:57:18,370 --> 01:57:19,650
I learned that that was really
neat.

1849
01:57:22,970 --> 01:57:31,110
Oh, Figure 5, that stupid hat.
Hey, I would wear that hat in

1850
01:57:31,110 --> 01:57:33,670
public.
I would pay for you to wear that

1851
01:57:33,670 --> 01:57:40,710
hat and take a photograph.
Shulam signifying the the

1852
01:57:41,630 --> 01:57:45,750
principal waiters Shulam so he
act.

1853
01:57:45,750 --> 01:57:50,830
Joseph actually gives a name to
this character Shulam as John G

1854
01:57:50,830 --> 01:57:54,550
has documented this name.
Shulam where did he get that

1855
01:57:54,550 --> 01:57:58,630
name?
Probably a neighboring town in

1856
01:57:58,790 --> 01:58:01,270
upstate New York or something.
Ohio, Yes.

1857
01:58:01,870 --> 01:58:05,750
Shulum, Ohio, right?
No doubt, As John Gee has

1858
01:58:05,750 --> 01:58:10,550
documented, this name is widely
attested in Semitic languages

1859
01:58:11,470 --> 01:58:17,350
from the time of Abraham.
That's like kidding, the

1860
01:58:17,350 --> 01:58:22,030
bullseye of the bullseye.
This includes attestations in

1861
01:58:22,070 --> 01:58:26,230
Old Acadian, Old Assyrian, Old
Babylonian, Middle Babylonian.

1862
01:58:26,900 --> 01:58:33,980
Ebli, eit and Ugoritic, so that
name was all over the place.

1863
01:58:34,260 --> 01:58:37,780
Why?
Additionally, Shulam's title The

1864
01:58:37,780 --> 01:58:42,620
King's Principal Waiter is
arguably attested in ancient

1865
01:58:42,620 --> 01:58:45,940
Egypt.
In particular, the title Butler

1866
01:58:45,940 --> 01:58:51,180
of the Ruler is a fairly close
match to King's principal waiter

1867
01:58:51,620 --> 01:58:53,700
and is attested during the time
of Abraham.

1868
01:58:59,780 --> 01:59:05,140
Man, he hit 3 targets in a row.
Bam, bam bam just by pulling the

1869
01:59:05,140 --> 01:59:09,140
name Shulam out of the hat.
Yeah, and it's so random, right?

1870
01:59:09,140 --> 01:59:17,420
I mean, it's not like it's not
even one of the primary players,

1871
01:59:17,420 --> 01:59:18,460
if you will.
Right.

1872
01:59:18,660 --> 01:59:20,660
It's not significant to the plan
of salvation.

1873
01:59:20,700 --> 01:59:25,020
He's just showing off.
He's not showing off.

1874
01:59:25,020 --> 01:59:27,570
He's just.
What has impressed me in my

1875
01:59:27,570 --> 01:59:30,610
studies over the years?
You know, you always believe in

1876
01:59:30,610 --> 01:59:34,130
inspiration, revelation.
But what I have learned about

1877
01:59:34,250 --> 01:59:37,930
the revelation given to Joseph
Smith is how specific it is.

1878
01:59:39,170 --> 01:59:44,490
The degree of specificity is
down to the very text, to the

1879
01:59:44,490 --> 01:59:50,410
very word, to the very spelling
of a word, when I can recognize

1880
01:59:50,410 --> 01:59:55,090
in the Dead Sea Scrolls a phrase
from the veil at the temple.

1881
01:59:56,310 --> 02:00:00,190
As being almost identical in
context and in order.

1882
02:00:02,110 --> 02:00:06,110
Revelation is very specific,
right down to the names.

1883
02:00:07,150 --> 02:00:14,070
So back up there a second.
Up there above everybody's heads

1884
02:00:14,070 --> 02:00:16,710
and hands, you see all the
inscriptions?

1885
02:00:16,710 --> 02:00:18,270
Do we know what any of those
mean?

1886
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:21,640
I'm sure we do.
And I was.

1887
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:25,000
I knew that you were going to
ask me something that I was not

1888
02:00:25,280 --> 02:00:27,040
prepared to answer and that's
one of them.

1889
02:00:28,160 --> 02:00:31,000
I I haven't.
I don't have anything

1890
02:00:32,800 --> 02:00:34,520
identifying what those
hieroglyphs, because they're

1891
02:00:34,520 --> 02:00:37,600
hieroglyphs of those are.
Except for the except for the

1892
02:00:37,600 --> 02:00:45,640
one who identifies ISIS.
Anyway, in the opening chapter,

1893
02:00:45,640 --> 02:00:49,720
the Book of Abraham mentions a
location named the plane.

1894
02:00:50,030 --> 02:00:53,470
Of Olesham.
There's Joseph Smith making up

1895
02:00:53,470 --> 02:00:57,150
names again like his crazy Book
of Mormon names.

1896
02:00:57,630 --> 02:00:59,590
Core horror.
Aha, right?

1897
02:01:02,310 --> 02:01:04,270
That's in Abraham chapter one,
verse 10.

1898
02:01:04,710 --> 02:01:08,630
This plane of Olesham was near
according to the book Fair, was

1899
02:01:08,630 --> 02:01:13,870
near Abraham's homeland of or of
the Chaldees according to the

1900
02:01:13,870 --> 02:01:19,150
Book of Abraham in 1985.
That was a good year for me.

1901
02:01:19,780 --> 02:01:23,620
The latterday St. archaeologist
named John Lundquist published a

1902
02:01:23,620 --> 02:01:27,340
pioneering article situated the
Book of Abraham in a plausible

1903
02:01:27,340 --> 02:01:29,700
ancient geographical and
cultural environment in northern

1904
02:01:29,700 --> 02:01:32,620
Mesopotamia.
Among the points discussed by

1905
02:01:32,620 --> 02:01:36,620
Lundquist was the plausible
identification of Olysham,

1906
02:01:36,780 --> 02:01:42,500
identifying where the planes
were, identifying it with an

1907
02:01:42,540 --> 02:01:47,020
ancient place name called
Ulyssum or Ulyssum.

1908
02:01:47,910 --> 02:01:51,310
Lindquist pointed to
inscriptional evidence dating to

1909
02:01:51,310 --> 02:01:56,990
the time of the Acadian King not
on sin, who reigned around the

1910
02:01:56,990 --> 02:01:59,390
time of.
Abraham.

1911
02:02:01,030 --> 02:02:05,590
Which spoke of Ulasam in what is
today northern Syria or southern

1912
02:02:05,590 --> 02:02:10,390
Turkey.
Furthermore, in 2013 non LDS

1913
02:02:10,390 --> 02:02:16,070
excavators at the Turkish site
of Oyla Moroyuk near the Syrian

1914
02:02:16,070 --> 02:02:18,870
border.
Announced that it was the

1915
02:02:19,070 --> 02:02:24,030
ancient Ulasham mentioned in the
inscription of not on scene, and

1916
02:02:24,030 --> 02:02:27,430
identified it as the city of
Abraham.

1917
02:02:31,070 --> 02:02:38,150
Oh, that's nuts.
You had enough.

1918
02:02:38,190 --> 02:02:43,830
I think this is my last section.
You know, again, we look at

1919
02:02:43,830 --> 02:02:47,420
this.
And I don't want anyone who's

1920
02:02:47,460 --> 02:02:53,660
listening or watching to take
for granted how absolutely

1921
02:02:53,660 --> 02:02:59,100
stupid the idea is that somebody
from the 1830s is going to have

1922
02:02:59,340 --> 02:03:02,860
that.
It's, it's it's absolutely

1923
02:03:02,860 --> 02:03:05,500
asinine.
But yet there it is.

1924
02:03:06,060 --> 02:03:10,660
Right?
Not backed up by some remote

1925
02:03:10,660 --> 02:03:14,260
Hebrew scholar somewhere by
modern day Egyptologist.

1926
02:03:14,910 --> 02:03:19,270
Who?
Who see the same who who come

1927
02:03:19,270 --> 02:03:23,550
back to prove Joseph Smith
correct with no vested interest

1928
02:03:23,550 --> 02:03:25,070
in doing so.
Yeah.

1929
02:03:26,030 --> 02:03:30,790
Now take what you just said.
Add to that an unprecedented

1930
02:03:30,790 --> 02:03:36,390
knowledge of ancient American
culture and archaeology, plus

1931
02:03:36,630 --> 02:03:41,710
ancient knowledge that no one
else had of Enoch or Moses that

1932
02:03:41,710 --> 02:03:43,750
is verified.
I mean, that's.

1933
02:03:45,880 --> 02:03:51,080
My stupid book 179 of those
teachings that came to us

1934
02:03:51,080 --> 02:03:55,200
through Joseph Smith have been
attested thousands of times in

1935
02:03:55,200 --> 02:03:57,000
books that he had zero access
to.

1936
02:04:02,280 --> 02:04:04,200
And that's why Joseph Smith was
so good.

1937
02:04:04,840 --> 02:04:08,240
Because if I had that kind of
capability, you bet you I'd be

1938
02:04:08,240 --> 02:04:13,810
visiting a bookie.
And that's what was cool about

1939
02:04:13,810 --> 02:04:16,290
him, too.
He didn't didn't abuse it.

1940
02:04:16,930 --> 02:04:19,850
Well, no, he didn't really care
about money and stuff.

1941
02:04:20,530 --> 02:04:23,730
He cared about money in regard
to building up with the Kingdom.

1942
02:04:24,330 --> 02:04:30,250
He's always giving his away.
He was terrible with money, but

1943
02:04:30,250 --> 02:04:34,050
I have to like that.
All right, so this will take you

1944
02:04:34,050 --> 02:04:37,850
straight out of my book.
Some of these special proof is

1945
02:04:37,850 --> 02:04:40,410
in the pudding and Abraham won
1516.

1946
02:04:40,830 --> 02:04:42,710
Abraham says.
I lifted up my voice unto the

1947
02:04:42,710 --> 02:04:44,990
Lord my God, Lord Harkin had
heard.

1948
02:04:44,990 --> 02:04:46,550
He filled me with the vision of
the Almighty.

1949
02:04:47,350 --> 02:04:49,470
The Angel of his presence stood
by me.

1950
02:04:49,910 --> 02:04:51,710
So he's, he's being sacrificed,
right?

1951
02:04:51,710 --> 02:04:54,350
And this happens.
And immediately unloosed my

1952
02:04:54,350 --> 02:04:56,390
bands, and his voice was unto
me.

1953
02:04:56,390 --> 02:05:01,270
Abraham, Abraham, behold, my
name is Jehovah and I have heard

1954
02:05:01,270 --> 02:05:05,630
thee.
There is a ancient authentic

1955
02:05:05,630 --> 02:05:08,510
text called the Apocalypse of
Abraham.

1956
02:05:09,610 --> 02:05:11,850
A little bit about it, because
it's referred to a lot.

1957
02:05:12,450 --> 02:05:16,730
Very exciting.
The Apocalypse of Abraham

1958
02:05:16,730 --> 02:05:20,730
survives in six manuscripts
written in Old Slavonic,

1959
02:05:21,290 --> 02:05:24,610
although the Slavonic version of
the Apocalypse of Abraham was

1960
02:05:24,610 --> 02:05:29,530
made in the 11th or 12th century
AD, The original language of the

1961
02:05:29,530 --> 02:05:33,450
Apocalypse of Abraham is Hebrew
and was most likely composed in

1962
02:05:33,450 --> 02:05:36,650
Palestine at the end of the 1st
century.

1963
02:05:38,930 --> 02:05:43,210
Very old.
And again, it's most likely a

1964
02:05:43,210 --> 02:05:47,770
copy of the original account.
Original account of Abraham.

1965
02:05:48,570 --> 02:05:52,210
This is what it says.
Look how it's sorry Apocalypse

1966
02:05:52,210 --> 02:05:54,730
of Abraham was not translated by
a Mormon.

1967
02:05:56,210 --> 02:06:01,210
And it came to pass.
I had this conversation with my

1968
02:06:01,770 --> 02:06:06,450
good Christian friend who was
making fun of the 1300 and some

1969
02:06:06,530 --> 02:06:08,330
and it came to passes in the
Book of Mormon.

1970
02:06:09,860 --> 02:06:12,260
I said, you know what that
means, right?

1971
02:06:13,300 --> 02:06:16,140
The further back you go in time,
the closer you get to Egyptian

1972
02:06:16,140 --> 02:06:19,260
culture, the more and it came to
pass, you see, showing up the

1973
02:06:19,260 --> 02:06:24,140
literature because that's how
they wrote, because they had no

1974
02:06:24,460 --> 02:06:29,180
punctuation.
And then and So what happened?

1975
02:06:29,180 --> 02:06:32,980
And it came to pass and it came
to pass as I was thinking things

1976
02:06:32,980 --> 02:06:35,740
like these with regard to my
father Tara, in the court of my

1977
02:06:35,740 --> 02:06:38,410
house.
The voice of the mighty One came

1978
02:06:38,410 --> 02:06:44,250
down from heavens in a stream of
fire, filler of fire, saying and

1979
02:06:44,250 --> 02:06:51,170
calling Abraham, Abraham.
And later on then a voice came

1980
02:06:51,170 --> 02:06:56,850
speaking to me twice.
Abraham, Abraham, not just.

1981
02:06:57,450 --> 02:07:02,410
Any chance any chance that
Joseph Smith had access to the

1982
02:07:02,410 --> 02:07:07,910
Apocalypse of Abraham 0?
Zero.

1983
02:07:08,310 --> 02:07:14,750
It hadn't been discovered yet.
The only of of these, all of

1984
02:07:14,750 --> 02:07:17,590
these ancient texts I I cite 66
in my book.

1985
02:07:18,390 --> 02:07:22,110
The only one that been
translated into English during

1986
02:07:22,110 --> 02:07:27,110
Joseph Smith's lifetime was
First Enoch in 18.

1987
02:07:27,110 --> 02:07:34,830
It had been translated in 1821
by an Episcopalian.

1988
02:07:35,680 --> 02:07:40,600
A priest who was castigated for
it for me, and it sat in

1989
02:07:40,600 --> 02:07:48,840
manuscript form, gathering dust
until after Joseph Smith knew

1990
02:07:48,840 --> 02:07:53,480
about it, It being translated
into English and published by

1991
02:07:56,120 --> 02:07:59,080
trying to remember off the top
of my head, I think by the late

1992
02:07:59,080 --> 02:08:04,320
1830s.
But there is no possible way he

1993
02:08:04,320 --> 02:08:06,400
had access.
The first Enoch.

1994
02:08:07,320 --> 02:08:10,040
Before, then before the Book of
Mormon.

1995
02:08:11,280 --> 02:08:14,000
Doctrine Covenants, Pro great
Price.

1996
02:08:14,760 --> 02:08:17,880
All of those predate that.
And the sudden the Book of

1997
02:08:17,880 --> 02:08:21,840
Abraham starting to seem a lot
more durable than what a lot of

1998
02:08:21,840 --> 02:08:24,320
people were.
Hoping I know so many people run

1999
02:08:24,320 --> 02:08:26,440
away from it, but the evidence
for it is overwhelming.

2000
02:08:26,960 --> 02:08:29,280
But it's so obscure that nobody
wants to touch it.

2001
02:08:29,920 --> 02:08:32,800
I mean, because you got to dig.
And the debates, the

2002
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:35,200
discussions, the criticisms are
a little bit convoluted.

2003
02:08:36,290 --> 02:08:37,810
Because of the ancient Egyptian
stuff.

2004
02:08:37,850 --> 02:08:43,930
But the evidence is all in favor
in Abraham chapter one, verse

2005
02:08:43,930 --> 02:08:45,730
two, what we were talking about
earlier.

2006
02:08:45,850 --> 02:08:50,610
Abraham desires great knowledge.
I sought for the blessings of

2007
02:08:50,610 --> 02:08:55,010
the fathers and the right, where
unto I should be ordained to

2008
02:08:55,010 --> 02:08:57,850
administer the same, having been
myself a follower of

2009
02:08:57,850 --> 02:09:01,530
righteousness, desiring also to
be one who possessed great

2010
02:09:01,530 --> 02:09:03,730
knowledge.
And to be a follower of

2011
02:09:03,730 --> 02:09:06,850
righteous, and to possess a
greater knowledge, and to be a

2012
02:09:06,850 --> 02:09:10,010
father of many nations that are
Prince of peace, desiring to

2013
02:09:10,010 --> 02:09:14,010
receive instructions and to keep
the commands, God, I became a

2014
02:09:14,010 --> 02:09:17,170
rightful heir, a high priest
holding the right, belonging to

2015
02:09:17,170 --> 02:09:21,570
the fathers.
In another ancient apocryphal

2016
02:09:21,570 --> 02:09:23,890
text of Abraham called The
Testament of Abraham, it says.

2017
02:09:25,290 --> 02:09:27,170
And now I'm asked.
Lord, heed my plea.

2018
02:09:27,530 --> 02:09:29,490
Well, I am.
Yet in this body I wish to see

2019
02:09:29,570 --> 02:09:33,410
all the inhabited world.
And all the created things which

2020
02:09:33,410 --> 02:09:36,330
you established master through
one word.

2021
02:09:36,690 --> 02:09:39,090
And when I have seen these
things, then if I depart from

2022
02:09:39,090 --> 02:09:42,170
life, I shall have no sorrow.
He wanted to see that vision

2023
02:09:42,170 --> 02:09:48,250
that was granted.
And to Moses and others he

2024
02:09:48,250 --> 02:09:50,570
learns astronomy from God,
according to the book of

2025
02:09:50,570 --> 02:09:55,050
Abraham.
I Abraham had the German thumb

2026
02:09:55,050 --> 02:09:58,010
of which God, which the Lord my
God had given unto me.

2027
02:09:58,550 --> 02:10:02,030
And or of the Kaldis.
And I saw the stars that they

2028
02:10:02,030 --> 02:10:04,470
were very great.
One of them was nearest the

2029
02:10:04,470 --> 02:10:06,270
throne of God, and there were
many great ones which were near

2030
02:10:06,270 --> 02:10:07,470
onto it.
Astronomy.

2031
02:10:08,030 --> 02:10:12,190
Apocalypse of Abraham I the
Angel will ascend on the wings

2032
02:10:12,190 --> 02:10:18,630
of birds.
That sounds like something we we

2033
02:10:18,630 --> 02:10:20,430
saw just a few moments ago,
right?

2034
02:10:20,990 --> 02:10:25,470
To show you, Abraham, what is in
the heavens, on the earth, and

2035
02:10:25,470 --> 02:10:27,630
in the sea, and in the abyss,
and in the lower depths.

2036
02:10:28,100 --> 02:10:30,900
In the Garden of Eden and in its
rivers, in the fullness of the

2037
02:10:30,900 --> 02:10:35,620
universe, And you will see its
circles, which I would interpret

2038
02:10:35,620 --> 02:10:36,940
as orbits.
Right?

2039
02:10:37,020 --> 02:10:44,100
All Abraham receives the Angel
from God, which you read about.

2040
02:10:45,100 --> 02:10:49,500
And so it happened here.
And behold, there was no breath

2041
02:10:49,500 --> 02:10:50,860
of man.
And my spirit was amazed.

2042
02:10:50,860 --> 02:10:54,000
My soul fled for me.
I became like a stone.

2043
02:10:54,000 --> 02:10:56,120
I fell face on the earth.
There was I was no longer

2044
02:10:56,120 --> 02:10:59,000
strength to stand up, and while
I was faced out on the ground or

2045
02:10:59,000 --> 02:11:03,960
heard the voice speaking, go EOL
of the same name through the me.

2046
02:11:04,120 --> 02:11:09,000
So this is God sending the Angel
whose name is EOL through the

2047
02:11:09,000 --> 02:11:15,160
mediation of my ineffable name
Christ consecrate this man

2048
02:11:15,160 --> 02:11:19,480
Abraham for me and strengthen
him against his trembling the

2049
02:11:19,480 --> 02:11:22,360
Angel he sent to me in the
likeness of a man.

2050
02:11:23,080 --> 02:11:28,200
Came and he took me by my right
hand, and stood me on my feet,

2051
02:11:28,760 --> 02:11:31,280
and said to me, Stand up,
Abraham, friend of God, who has

2052
02:11:31,280 --> 02:11:34,240
loved you, Let human trembling
nod and fold you.

2053
02:11:34,240 --> 02:11:37,360
For though I am sent to you, to
strengthen you, to bless you in

2054
02:11:37,360 --> 02:11:40,400
the name of God, Creator of
heaven and earth, I thinks who

2055
02:11:40,400 --> 02:11:43,080
has loved you.
Be bold and hastened to him.

2056
02:11:43,080 --> 02:11:48,080
I am EOLI was called so by him
who causes those with me on the

2057
02:11:48,080 --> 02:11:51,050
7th.
Expands, or as Paul called it,

2058
02:11:51,050 --> 02:11:54,330
the 7th heaven on the firmament
to shake a power through the

2059
02:11:54,330 --> 02:11:58,530
immediate ineffable name.
In me Abraham seeks one true

2060
02:11:58,530 --> 02:12:04,850
God.
You are searching for the God of

2061
02:12:04,850 --> 02:12:07,410
gods, the Creator, in the
understanding of your heart.

2062
02:12:07,690 --> 02:12:14,170
I am he, I am.
And here again, here I am.

2063
02:12:16,210 --> 02:12:21,290
The old desire for I am the I am
before the world and mighty, the

2064
02:12:21,290 --> 02:12:25,490
God who created previously,
before the light of the age, and

2065
02:12:25,490 --> 02:12:29,290
so on and so forth.
Because you desired to search

2066
02:12:29,290 --> 02:12:31,930
for me, and I called you my
beloved.

2067
02:12:34,970 --> 02:12:43,440
How was this showing him the
last days?

2068
02:12:51,530 --> 02:13:01,430
And he may see the whole world
Abraham.

2069
02:13:01,430 --> 02:13:07,910
Here's the very significant
reference that in in in the

2070
02:13:08,310 --> 02:13:11,390
facsimile #3 where Abraham
sitting on the throne and

2071
02:13:11,390 --> 02:13:13,550
teaching astronomy to Pharaoh's
court.

2072
02:13:14,550 --> 02:13:19,150
In this text pseudo Eupole
Eupolemus.

2073
02:13:19,630 --> 02:13:23,070
Abraham lived in Heliopolis
where the temple is.

2074
02:13:23,620 --> 02:13:27,620
With the Egyptian priests and
taught them much.

2075
02:13:28,140 --> 02:13:31,860
He explained astrology and the
other sciences to them, saying

2076
02:13:31,860 --> 02:13:34,780
that the Babylonians and he
himself had obtained this

2077
02:13:34,780 --> 02:13:37,260
knowledge.
However, he attributed the

2078
02:13:37,260 --> 02:13:41,540
discovery of them to Enoch.
Enoch first discovered

2079
02:13:41,540 --> 02:13:48,980
astrology, not the Egyptians.
Did you mean astronomy or isn't?

2080
02:13:49,460 --> 02:13:52,900
Well, they say astrology, but in
the ancient.

2081
02:13:53,330 --> 02:13:56,170
In the ancient world, I think
they were very, I mean, they

2082
02:13:56,170 --> 02:13:59,090
were inevitable.
You couldn't really talk about

2083
02:13:59,090 --> 02:14:00,570
one without talking about the
other.

2084
02:14:01,850 --> 02:14:10,690
So, all right, so summing this
all up, John Gee, how could

2085
02:14:10,690 --> 02:14:12,810
Joseph Smith have known this
material?

2086
02:14:14,010 --> 02:14:17,050
Joseph Smith published the Book
of Abraham in 1842.

2087
02:14:18,250 --> 02:14:22,320
It was 1851.
When Heinrich Brusch first

2088
02:14:22,320 --> 02:14:26,720
translated a hieratic papyrus
into a European language, that

2089
02:14:26,720 --> 02:14:29,120
was the first time anybody had
translated Egyptian.

2090
02:14:30,040 --> 02:14:34,360
It was 1852, when Emmanuel the
Rouge translated the first

2091
02:14:34,360 --> 02:14:37,440
hieroglyphic inscription into a
modern language.

2092
02:14:38,280 --> 02:14:41,280
The inscriptions that tell us
about the Egyptians ruling over

2093
02:14:41,280 --> 02:14:46,920
ancient Syria and Abraham's Day
was first published in 2008.

2094
02:14:48,520 --> 02:14:52,040
The first inscription mentioning
Olsen, was published in 1928.

2095
02:14:53,160 --> 02:14:56,320
The A Dreamy autobiography was
first published in 1949.

2096
02:14:56,720 --> 02:14:59,280
The Reality of Human SAC.
We didn't even talk about that.

2097
02:14:59,880 --> 02:15:02,160
Book of Abraham says that
Egyptians practiced human

2098
02:15:02,160 --> 02:15:03,120
sacrifice.
Everybody goes.

2099
02:15:03,120 --> 02:15:06,000
No, they didn't.
They kind of did.

2100
02:15:06,720 --> 02:15:09,840
The reality of human sacrifice
in ancient Egypt was established

2101
02:15:10,320 --> 02:15:14,760
in 1993.
The work on covenants was first

2102
02:15:14,760 --> 02:15:18,100
put together in 2012.
And our knowledge of the

2103
02:15:18,100 --> 02:15:21,940
Canaanite dynasties in Egypt
came in 1997.

2104
02:15:23,380 --> 02:15:27,420
So Joseph Smith published the
Book of Abraham about 160 years

2105
02:15:27,900 --> 02:15:33,900
too early.
He could not have known about

2106
02:15:33,900 --> 02:15:37,220
these things, and we can't
compare them to those things

2107
02:15:37,220 --> 02:15:39,620
because the Book of Abraham is
true.

2108
02:15:44,260 --> 02:15:47,290
Carrie Milstein.
Each of the three Egyptian

2109
02:15:47,290 --> 02:15:51,530
representations or facsimiles
Joseph Smith said were

2110
02:15:51,530 --> 02:15:55,970
associated with Abraham actually
was associated with him by

2111
02:15:55,970 --> 02:15:59,810
ancient Egyptians.
No plausible explanations have

2112
02:15:59,810 --> 02:16:03,290
been posed for the many striking
consistencies in the Book of

2113
02:16:03,290 --> 02:16:06,690
Abraham with non biblical
traditions regarding Abraham.

2114
02:16:07,530 --> 02:16:10,570
A few such traditions that were
not known in Joseph Smith's day,

2115
02:16:11,090 --> 02:16:13,530
but which agree with the Book of
Abraham are that one.

2116
02:16:14,100 --> 02:16:16,380
Those who were disrupting the
worship of idols in Abraham

2117
02:16:16,380 --> 02:16:20,780
society were killed. 2.
Abraham prayed for deliverance

2118
02:16:20,780 --> 02:16:23,180
when he was about to be killed
because of his disruption vital

2119
02:16:23,180 --> 02:16:25,260
worship.
Three, the priest or leader who

2120
02:16:25,260 --> 02:16:30,180
was trying to kill him was
killed instead. 4 Abraham was

2121
02:16:30,180 --> 02:16:34,299
heir to the priest of because of
his father's. 5 Abraham

2122
02:16:34,299 --> 02:16:38,660
possessed to German thummim What
6 people think like Mormons

2123
02:16:38,660 --> 02:16:40,260
invented the concept of German
thump.

2124
02:16:40,340 --> 02:16:43,420
I know.
I know that.

2125
02:16:44,270 --> 02:16:47,070
And why that is I do not know,
but it's mentioned in the Old

2126
02:16:47,070 --> 02:16:49,070
Testament.
Yeah, it's obscure, but it's

2127
02:16:49,070 --> 02:16:52,830
there. 6 Abraham possessed
records of his father's seven

2128
02:16:53,230 --> 02:16:58,990
There was a famine in Abraham's
homeland 8 and Haram died in in

2129
02:16:58,990 --> 02:17:01,150
the famine.
The fact that Joseph Smith did

2130
02:17:01,150 --> 02:17:04,750
not know of these details and
other similarities from ancient

2131
02:17:04,750 --> 02:17:09,950
sources, yet they agree so well
with ancient sources is striking

2132
02:17:10,389 --> 02:17:16,020
understatement of the evening.
That's all I have to say.

2133
02:17:16,780 --> 02:17:23,740
Okay.
So I feel like you've given the

2134
02:17:23,740 --> 02:17:28,379
audience enough ammo that they
can stand up to anybody on this

2135
02:17:28,379 --> 02:17:30,660
issue.
This was thorough, This was well

2136
02:17:30,660 --> 02:17:32,459
done and well thought out.
Thank you.

2137
02:17:32,740 --> 02:17:35,180
Thank you for that.
But let me ask.

2138
02:17:35,860 --> 02:17:40,740
I do I I forgot people who want
to source this stuff for

2139
02:17:40,740 --> 02:17:45,450
themselves.
There are two simple resources.

2140
02:17:45,930 --> 02:17:48,170
The first one is easy and
absolutely free.

2141
02:17:48,690 --> 02:17:54,010
Pearl of great price
central.org.

2142
02:17:55,049 --> 02:17:59,570
Yeah, Dang it.
Org or com prorate price

2143
02:17:59,570 --> 02:18:05,010
central.com. 111 or the other I
mean.

2144
02:18:05,209 --> 02:18:08,090
Yeah.
Anyway, that gives all this

2145
02:18:08,090 --> 02:18:09,730
stuff with pictures.
It's beautiful.

2146
02:18:11,080 --> 02:18:13,760
And it talks about Book of All
and it's amazing.

2147
02:18:14,200 --> 02:18:22,680
The other is John Geese, brief
and insightful An Introduction

2148
02:18:23,440 --> 02:18:27,400
to the Book of Abraham where he
talks about all of these items

2149
02:18:28,040 --> 02:18:31,400
with pictures.
So.

2150
02:18:32,559 --> 02:18:37,160
Ken would the book Mormon
Doctrine in the Apocrypha and a

2151
02:18:37,160 --> 02:18:41,639
concordance of the teachings.
Oh, and another book.

2152
02:18:41,639 --> 02:18:43,840
Let me show you that picture.
Would that be there too?

2153
02:18:43,840 --> 02:18:46,120
I'm just curious.
Here's a nice book.

2154
02:18:46,200 --> 02:18:48,600
That one right there.
Where would somebody find that

2155
02:18:48,600 --> 02:18:51,080
book?
Well, if they come to my house,

2156
02:18:51,080 --> 02:18:55,120
I'll give them a copy.
Or you can get it on Amazon.

2157
02:18:56,480 --> 02:18:59,719
I would go to Amazon and can you
have me to talk about being a

2158
02:18:59,719 --> 02:19:01,400
capitalist when we're done with
this one?

2159
02:19:01,799 --> 02:19:05,360
It's a funny little book and it
has a really long title, but

2160
02:19:05,360 --> 02:19:09,799
it's full of fascinating things
that I didn't write.

2161
02:19:09,799 --> 02:19:12,219
I found them.
So let me ask you this.

2162
02:19:12,299 --> 02:19:15,860
Like I said, this was well
thought out, this was well done.

2163
02:19:15,860 --> 02:19:17,700
You really did your homework on
this.

2164
02:19:18,379 --> 02:19:22,580
What would you tell someone who
came to you and said, look, I'm

2165
02:19:22,580 --> 02:19:27,219
really struggling with this Book
of Abraham thing because even

2166
02:19:27,219 --> 02:19:30,059
though this was well put
together, if if you just throw

2167
02:19:30,059 --> 02:19:31,860
this at them, you're going to
overwhelm them, right?

2168
02:19:31,860 --> 02:19:36,100
So how, how, how do we navigate
those waters with people then

2169
02:19:36,459 --> 02:19:38,740
when they're having those kind
of doubts?

2170
02:19:41,600 --> 02:19:49,480
The first thing I say to people
like that is, well, a couple of

2171
02:19:49,480 --> 02:19:52,920
things.
Number one, you're not the first

2172
02:19:52,920 --> 02:19:58,920
person to have these questions.
People have been studying these

2173
02:19:58,920 --> 02:20:03,800
issues for decades.
I began my study of it in 1987

2174
02:20:04,240 --> 02:20:11,050
and before #2.
There are answers for every

2175
02:20:11,050 --> 02:20:15,490
single one of these issues, and
they are free to access.

2176
02:20:15,810 --> 02:20:19,890
The other resource I forgot is
Fair Latter Day st.com.

2177
02:20:22,770 --> 02:20:26,210
Fair Latter day saints.org.com.
Well, I'm such an idiot.

2178
02:20:26,210 --> 02:20:28,090
Oh well, I've been.
I've been here.

2179
02:20:28,090 --> 02:20:32,250
Let me find it here because I
have sources all over the place

2180
02:20:33,010 --> 02:20:37,130
in here.
Pearl of Great Price central.org

2181
02:20:37,130 --> 02:20:42,920
is the one.
And fair Latter Day Saints

2182
02:20:42,920 --> 02:20:48,360
together, they deal with every
single Dow, every single

2183
02:20:48,360 --> 02:20:51,440
question.
They give thorough and scholarly

2184
02:20:51,440 --> 02:20:58,440
answers, and they're not rude
about it, you know, they're

2185
02:20:58,440 --> 02:21:00,920
they're very scholarly.
They intend to be scholarly.

2186
02:21:02,720 --> 02:21:07,280
The second the third thing is
find somebody, I mean.

2187
02:21:10,920 --> 02:21:14,640
The first reassurance is you
need to know that these

2188
02:21:14,640 --> 02:21:19,320
questions have already been
answered many times by people

2189
02:21:19,320 --> 02:21:23,560
far smarter than any of us and
who've spent their lives and

2190
02:21:23,840 --> 02:21:25,560
professionals who have studied
this out.

2191
02:21:25,560 --> 02:21:31,360
OK, and the the third thing is
you of course, as the

2192
02:21:31,360 --> 02:21:35,640
questioner, are free to live as
you choose.

2193
02:21:36,640 --> 02:21:38,960
And I will fight for your right
to do that.

2194
02:21:41,040 --> 02:21:45,360
All I would say is I hope that
you make those decisions in an

2195
02:21:45,360 --> 02:21:51,200
informed way, so you don't jump
to a life's choice and later

2196
02:21:51,200 --> 02:21:54,320
come to learn that you had been
to see, right.

2197
02:21:56,200 --> 02:21:59,320
So take, just slow down, take
your time.

2198
02:22:00,320 --> 02:22:03,440
It's very important not only to
find the online resources, but

2199
02:22:03,440 --> 02:22:08,080
to find someone you can trust.
To hear you out, and to not

2200
02:22:08,080 --> 02:22:12,200
judge you, and to not.
But who has experience with this

2201
02:22:12,200 --> 02:22:17,200
these things, so they can calmly
guide you through the questions

2202
02:22:17,440 --> 02:22:20,520
and at the very least give you
the other side of the story.

2203
02:22:22,080 --> 02:22:26,400
Absolutely.
I then then make your choice,

2204
02:22:26,400 --> 02:22:29,440
Yeah.
I I deal with.

2205
02:22:30,790 --> 02:22:33,910
With probably 3 to 4 emails a
week with people really

2206
02:22:33,910 --> 02:22:39,670
struggling with their testimony
of the gospel as a whole and and

2207
02:22:39,670 --> 02:22:44,030
my first piece of advice is, I
know it feels like your world is

2208
02:22:44,030 --> 02:22:48,670
collapsing, but just breathe and
sit with that for a moment

2209
02:22:49,750 --> 02:22:53,950
right?
I I've also told people the fact

2210
02:22:53,950 --> 02:22:56,990
you're asking questions shows a
level of maturity.

2211
02:22:57,390 --> 02:23:00,190
The questions are good.
They are good.

2212
02:23:00,190 --> 02:23:03,110
You should ask those questions
because if you are basing your

2213
02:23:03,110 --> 02:23:07,390
life around this, you should
absolutely ask some very pointed

2214
02:23:07,390 --> 02:23:10,990
questions to make sure that it's
true.

2215
02:23:11,670 --> 02:23:16,150
And there are answers to
everything except why Abraham

2216
02:23:16,150 --> 02:23:19,550
was wearing striped clothing.
We don't know that somebody, I'm

2217
02:23:19,550 --> 02:23:23,270
going to get somebody, does his.
Taylor His Taylor needs to be

2218
02:23:23,270 --> 02:23:25,830
brought to justice for that.
But.

2219
02:23:26,940 --> 02:23:32,020
But but.
But look, as as Ken and I have

2220
02:23:32,020 --> 02:23:34,860
said, don't take our word for
it, right, We'll point you in a

2221
02:23:34,860 --> 02:23:37,740
direction, right.
Here's all the data.

2222
02:23:37,900 --> 02:23:41,940
Go look at it.
Anybody who tell comes to you.

2223
02:23:41,940 --> 02:23:45,380
And this, and this is my other
big warning, anybody who comes

2224
02:23:45,380 --> 02:23:49,820
to you and says authoritatively,
you can just take what I say

2225
02:23:49,820 --> 02:23:52,360
here.
Yeah, I never trust anybody who

2226
02:23:52,360 --> 02:23:53,960
says trust me.
Right.

2227
02:23:54,040 --> 02:23:55,440
No.
Don't trust anybody.

2228
02:23:55,440 --> 02:23:57,720
Don't trust me.
I'm a clown with a microphone.

2229
02:23:58,000 --> 02:24:00,200
Right.
I'm in between me and Ken.

2230
02:24:00,200 --> 02:24:02,560
You can probably hit your wagon
to Ken a little bit, but don't.

2231
02:24:02,800 --> 02:24:05,360
Don't do it to me.
You're going to be sorely,

2232
02:24:05,360 --> 02:24:12,800
sorely disappointed.
But don't allow yourself to to

2233
02:24:12,800 --> 02:24:16,480
be coopted by somebody else's
movement, is the other thing I'd

2234
02:24:16,480 --> 02:24:17,930
say.
Yeah, right.

2235
02:24:18,330 --> 02:24:22,450
Do your own homework and do an
honest assessment.

2236
02:24:24,770 --> 02:24:27,770
By honest assessment, like we
said at the beginning, if you

2237
02:24:27,770 --> 02:24:32,490
haven't examined both sides or
all sides of a question or an

2238
02:24:32,490 --> 02:24:35,610
issue, you're not prepared to
make an informed decision.

2239
02:24:35,970 --> 02:24:38,050
No.
And and you're you're very nice.

2240
02:24:38,050 --> 02:24:40,570
You keep saying that people
aren't out there trying to

2241
02:24:40,570 --> 02:24:42,930
deceive you.
There's a few.

2242
02:24:43,170 --> 02:24:46,290
I'm not the most part that's
true, but I I will quote to you.

2243
02:24:46,970 --> 02:24:50,730
The one of the founders of
exmormon.org said that he

2244
02:24:50,730 --> 02:24:54,090
fantasized those.
These are his words.

2245
02:24:54,490 --> 02:24:59,970
He fantasized about a full blown
faith destroying session with

2246
02:24:59,970 --> 02:25:04,850
Mormons or.
Well my first thought is is once

2247
02:25:04,850 --> 02:25:08,690
he discovers girls his fantasies
will go other places but.

2248
02:25:09,650 --> 02:25:13,330
Well, that along those lines, a
less sophisticated that a

2249
02:25:13,330 --> 02:25:16,680
student or a friend of my ward.
Did in high school.

2250
02:25:16,680 --> 02:25:21,600
Had a friend in high school who
said I want to break as many

2251
02:25:21,600 --> 02:25:24,000
Mormon girls as I can.
Geez.

2252
02:25:28,640 --> 02:25:30,960
So yeah, there's some for sure.
And.

2253
02:25:30,960 --> 02:25:33,160
Look, I don't, and I don't think
there are few.

2254
02:25:33,640 --> 02:25:37,000
You don't.
No, I want to.

2255
02:25:37,800 --> 02:25:39,800
Believe the best, right?
I I do.

2256
02:25:39,920 --> 02:25:44,800
Well, I appreciate that Satan
seeks to sift us as wheat.

2257
02:25:45,040 --> 02:25:48,230
Right.
He's saying he's not going after

2258
02:25:48,230 --> 02:25:51,590
sinners, he's going after good
people.

2259
02:25:52,230 --> 02:25:56,710
He's the Destroyer.
And he has minions, some of whom

2260
02:25:56,710 --> 02:25:59,990
are doing it cognizantly, some
of them who are doing so

2261
02:26:00,070 --> 02:26:01,790
ignorantly and out of
selfishness.

2262
02:26:02,830 --> 02:26:11,870
But we have to.
We have to How does Paul put in

2263
02:26:11,870 --> 02:26:15,270
Ephesians?
Work out our own salvation with

2264
02:26:15,270 --> 02:26:18,190
fear and truth gird.
Yourselves, gird yourselves with

2265
02:26:18,190 --> 02:26:23,030
the armor of God, the helmet of
salvation, right breastplate of

2266
02:26:23,030 --> 02:26:27,430
righteousness, your feet shot
with the preparation of peace,

2267
02:26:28,030 --> 02:26:30,830
and most of all, the sword of
truth.

2268
02:26:31,750 --> 02:26:35,390
You know, I go back to something
that Thomas Jefferson once said,

2269
02:26:36,270 --> 02:26:39,870
and he was writing a letter.
I could, I could be misquoting

2270
02:26:39,870 --> 02:26:41,750
here, but I believe it was his
nephew.

2271
02:26:42,670 --> 02:26:46,990
His parents had died and he was
he was of age, but he was still

2272
02:26:46,990 --> 02:26:50,550
a young man, and Jefferson wrote
him this letter.

2273
02:26:51,870 --> 02:26:55,110
And he said, look, when it comes
to mathematics, know these when

2274
02:26:55,110 --> 02:26:58,350
studying philosophy.
Know this in matters of

2275
02:26:58,350 --> 02:27:03,350
religion, question with boldness
the very existence of God,

2276
02:27:04,230 --> 02:27:09,390
because God would surely welcome
honest questioning over

2277
02:27:09,390 --> 02:27:13,260
blindfolded fear.
I also agree with what Jay Ruben

2278
02:27:13,260 --> 02:27:17,860
Clark once said, which is if we
have the truth, we shouldn't, we

2279
02:27:17,860 --> 02:27:21,260
shouldn't be bothered with this
idea of scrutiny, right?

2280
02:27:21,260 --> 02:27:23,860
Because if it's true, it can't
be harmed.

2281
02:27:24,420 --> 02:27:27,300
And if it's not true, well, it
kind of should, right?

2282
02:27:27,700 --> 02:27:30,220
But the key there.
Nothing to fear in the truth.

2283
02:27:30,460 --> 02:27:36,580
Right the the the key there is
to do honest research.

2284
02:27:37,060 --> 02:27:38,460
Right.
Do not.

2285
02:27:39,690 --> 02:27:43,410
Do not start with.
Well this has to be false.

2286
02:27:43,410 --> 02:27:45,970
So I'm going to look for that
evidence, right.

2287
02:27:46,530 --> 02:27:50,210
Start with the the If you're
honestly questioning go with

2288
02:27:50,210 --> 02:27:52,730
that.
You don't know that's okay.

2289
02:27:53,170 --> 02:27:55,610
Listen to to the anti Mormon
side.

2290
02:27:55,610 --> 02:27:59,930
Listen to the evidence Ken just
laid out and then make your

2291
02:27:59,930 --> 02:28:02,370
decision.
But.

2292
02:28:03,250 --> 02:28:05,650
Sometimes it's also a matter of
being brutally honest with

2293
02:28:05,650 --> 02:28:07,730
yourself, right?
I have.

2294
02:28:08,580 --> 02:28:15,740
I have friends who have left the
faith because they wanted they

2295
02:28:16,340 --> 02:28:19,900
they wanted the great and
spacious building and everything

2296
02:28:19,900 --> 02:28:26,140
that goes along with that and
the anti Mormon criticisms were

2297
02:28:26,140 --> 02:28:29,380
convenient way for them to do
that.

2298
02:28:29,660 --> 02:28:31,420
And you know what?
That's okay too.

2299
02:28:32,540 --> 02:28:35,340
I mean God will force no man to
heaven.

2300
02:28:36,360 --> 02:28:41,360
Your will, your will is the one
thing God will never force

2301
02:28:41,360 --> 02:28:44,240
himself upon.
He'll He'll part the Red Sea.

2302
02:28:44,760 --> 02:28:49,280
He will cause miracles to
happen, man in a fall from

2303
02:28:49,280 --> 02:28:52,520
heaven, but will never violate
your free will.

2304
02:28:53,280 --> 02:28:57,680
Yeah, the self determination.
Yeah, the self determination has

2305
02:28:57,680 --> 02:29:02,600
been the rule from from
eternities.

2306
02:29:03,440 --> 02:29:05,880
I mean, it is the Prime
Directive, right?

2307
02:29:06,340 --> 02:29:08,860
Right.
You have the right to choose

2308
02:29:08,860 --> 02:29:13,460
your own destiny, and God will
never forego that because guess

2309
02:29:13,460 --> 02:29:14,820
what?
It doesn't work.

2310
02:29:15,180 --> 02:29:17,260
Nope, never has and it never
will.

2311
02:29:18,380 --> 02:29:23,900
So, well, Ken, this was awesome.
And for everyone listening, Ken

2312
02:29:23,900 --> 02:29:26,580
and I have a few other subjects
we're going to broach together

2313
02:29:27,820 --> 02:29:30,260
throughout the year that I think
you guys are going to be very

2314
02:29:30,260 --> 02:29:32,460
interested in hearing.
So.

2315
02:29:32,460 --> 02:29:36,150
So stay tuned for all that.
Ken, is there anything else you

2316
02:29:36,150 --> 02:29:38,110
wanted to say as we we wrap this
up?

2317
02:29:40,630 --> 02:29:43,270
Just thank you.
Thank you.

2318
02:29:43,950 --> 02:29:46,510
Sometimes I wish we could just
sitting around as a big group

2319
02:29:46,510 --> 02:29:49,870
and just about it, you know?
I know.

2320
02:29:50,710 --> 02:29:53,830
But the thing I love about this
is, especially with the slides

2321
02:29:53,830 --> 02:29:57,630
that there's I prepared for
almost anything in the

2322
02:29:57,630 --> 02:30:02,670
discussion because I got all my
ducks in a row and and just the

2323
02:30:02,670 --> 02:30:05,690
opportunity to.
Review all this literature and

2324
02:30:05,690 --> 02:30:08,850
put it down in one big
presentable package.

2325
02:30:09,970 --> 02:30:13,850
There's a lot of work, but a lot
of fun and exhilarating.

2326
02:30:13,970 --> 02:30:16,730
Exhilarating.
My my stupid skeptical mind.

2327
02:30:16,730 --> 02:30:18,610
It keeps reverting to the
skepticism.

2328
02:30:18,730 --> 02:30:21,970
Not like I quit or have doubts
of that sort of thing, but your

2329
02:30:21,970 --> 02:30:23,530
mind gets calloused because you
forget.

2330
02:30:23,530 --> 02:30:28,010
But when you go over these
things point by point, all in

2331
02:30:28,010 --> 02:30:31,880
one sitting, it is overwhelming.
Right.

2332
02:30:32,080 --> 02:30:36,840
Overwhelmingly exciting to think
that the restored gospel and the

2333
02:30:36,840 --> 02:30:42,880
plan of salvation and eternal
life and exaltation potentially

2334
02:30:44,160 --> 02:30:49,640
is our destiny.
It's absolutely it's the truth.

2335
02:30:50,200 --> 02:30:52,680
Absolutely.
It's not the greatest fairy tale

2336
02:30:52,680 --> 02:30:54,720
ever told.
No, no.

2337
02:30:55,240 --> 02:30:57,720
And and yeah.
Yep.

2338
02:30:57,800 --> 02:30:59,360
No, I agree with you
wholeheartedly.

2339
02:30:59,740 --> 02:31:03,460
And I can't deny it.
Even if I wanted to, even if I

2340
02:31:03,460 --> 02:31:07,260
was the guy who protected the
fruit of the tree of fruit of

2341
02:31:07,260 --> 02:31:10,380
the tree of life and said no,
I'm going to go to the great

2342
02:31:10,380 --> 02:31:13,780
spacious building.
Even if I was that guy, I could

2343
02:31:13,780 --> 02:31:19,220
not deny the truth of what I
know and it would would not go

2344
02:31:19,220 --> 02:31:23,780
well for me knowing all that.
But fortunately, as I was

2345
02:31:23,780 --> 02:31:27,780
telling my son in school class,
I like being with.

2346
02:31:28,280 --> 02:31:30,200
Other Saints, I love the
goodness.

2347
02:31:30,640 --> 02:31:35,640
I like being a faithful husband.
I like trying to be a good dad

2348
02:31:35,640 --> 02:31:42,080
and loving my kids and having a
my wife is my best friend and

2349
02:31:42,560 --> 02:31:47,760
all that entails and looking
forward to an eternity of

2350
02:31:47,760 --> 02:31:51,120
goodness and service.
To the extent that I'm able, you

2351
02:31:51,120 --> 02:31:52,200
know?
Right.

2352
02:31:52,920 --> 02:31:55,400
And and especially looking
forward.

2353
02:31:56,720 --> 02:31:59,720
My My secret dream is that the
Millennium will come and save me

2354
02:31:59,720 --> 02:32:03,360
from becoming old and decrepit.
I have.

2355
02:32:03,520 --> 02:32:05,120
I don't know.
I just.

2356
02:32:05,760 --> 02:32:07,800
Well, I think it's to.
Raise your kids in the

2357
02:32:07,800 --> 02:32:09,160
Millennium.
How cool would that be?

2358
02:32:09,560 --> 02:32:12,040
Well, right.
As far as old and decrepit, I

2359
02:32:12,040 --> 02:32:15,640
will say I I always defer back
to what Indiana Jones said.

2360
02:32:15,640 --> 02:32:22,120
It's more about the mileage than
the years, so but awesome.

2361
02:32:22,120 --> 02:32:24,800
Well, Ken, dude, great stuff as
always.

2362
02:32:24,800 --> 02:32:27,720
I appreciate it, man.
My pleasure.

2363
02:32:27,800 --> 02:32:29,040
Thank you, David.
All right.

2364
02:32:29,040 --> 02:32:53,360
Bye everybody.
You're listening to the Mormon

2365
02:32:53,360 --> 02:32:54,640
Renegade podcast.