Episode #75: The Seven Churches In The Book Of Revelations & Possible Connections To The Churches Of RestorationW/Taylor Smith

0:05 One of the things I love most about the scriptures is that as our walk-in, our discipleship of Jesus Christ, matures and changes. So too, do the scriptures certain passages will take on new personal meanings given where we are in our current circumstances. This is why the scriptures will always be relevant on this episode of the podcast. I have Taylor Smith back on Taylor's working on hypothesis that the in the Book of Revelation, the seven churches. His mentioned are not only historical churches but also could be a representation of certain groups. Within the Restoration in these latter days stay tuned for a fascinating conversation on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast.

0:46 Look, it's no secret that our society has become much more crude and course to become and raise men and women of virtue and characters are Herculean task to help with this. I have recently wrote and published a book. Now, back in the 1700s, Washington had a book called Rules of Civility, indecent behavior, and Company and conversation. It was a book with 110 Rules that talked about how to conduct yourself like a civilized person in society. Something that today's society is sorely lacking, What I did is I went back through the book and I reinterpreted his original sayings for the 21st century. So, the book is laid out in a way in which you see, Washington's original rule right below.

1:27 That is my explanation for the 21st century and below that, you'll find two or three examples of where, to use this in the real world now to go along with this, there's a workbook that helps parents teach these principles and practices to their kids to find the book. Go to Mormon, Renegade.com, go to the bottom of the page. Search out the blog post in order your copy today. I can bear personal testimony from personal experience that this is an invaluable tool to help you raise men and women of virtue and character. Taylor, welcome back, man, how's things going going? Great. Thanks Dave. Glad to be back. So, you know, normally we spend a little time kind of chit-chattin, but I got to tell you, I'm super excited for this.

2:11 When you, when you first showed this, to me at the Book of Mormon evidence conference, I was Kind of its kind of like, well there's there's some stuff there and as I've read and I've only become to become more intrigued so real quick. Why don't you break down? What the premise is before we get into it big time. Yeah. So you know I've had kind of a personal tradition of New Year's to read scriptures and just do a marathon, you know, because you know we often times will do deep studies into various topics or will just be reading along more at a you know, chapter 2 at a time in our daily studies but I find tremendous value in at least once a year doing like a big picture and you really get a different perspective. When you read a lot of scriptures in close proximity. So, you know, having kids, it's not as conducive to just yeah. Pull in all.

3:11 Yeah, there's and, you know, and just read doing reading marathons, but we do the best we can. And, and you know, I've invited various brothers and family and friends to join me over the years. And maybe this next year, we can do something like that together, but if you'd be all this, yeah, this last New Year's. I was reading the book of Mormon. And was just just amazed at how timely and questions, like, how, how prophetic these events being described in the Book of Mormon are, and in the nature of prophecies. It's much easier to identify in retrospect, like, you know, prophecies. You know, you look at Isaiah there, a lot vaguer when their future events, but when you can look back or, as you can see, current events unfolding The pieces start to fall in and fall together a lot better.

4:04 And so, my brother and I and Mom and I were doing our New Year's study and as I was reading though, in first Nephi chapter 14, it talks about Nephi sees this Vision, right? And and it's our day. He sees the restoration, he sees the, the horror and the big conflict in preparation. And then he says, and I'm going to stop now. Because God has told me that John, another of his servants is going to write the rest and when I wrote when I read that I thought man, I haven't read the book of Revelation in a few years. I need to dive back into that.

4:44 And so, and so, a few a couple weeks after it. So this is still probably mid, maybe late January, this point was, was looking at the first couple of chapters of Revelation with my brother-in-law. We were kind of doing this, this study together. Her and it just started to hit us a lot of these. Parallels. Because, you know, the revelation of John, he's writing him on the island of Patmos in Exile and and that he's addressing these various churches, their seven churches in Asia Minor. And what's interesting, you know, these are literal historical bodies of the Saints in the first century BC to ad. So this is post Christ's death.

5:27 Resurrection Ascension and the gospel has been preached. Paul had been, you know, doing his labors. And so there were a lot of converts. And there were these seven main kind of, I guess, we might call them Stakes of Zion so to speak branches of the church. But they're geographically separated, and they have kind of their own unique things. And the big like Epiphany that off. Aha moment was whoa. I wonder if these are also like archetypical and if there are any modern corollaries to these seven, branches described in the Book of Revelation that I can identify because I I started to see these parallels between, you know, Ephesus is the first church will get into here in a minute and and one of the branches of the restoration that I've gotten to know and I've gotten to know people and, you know, some of the strengths that are described some of their, you know, the things that God commands them For also, some of the problems that they have had and that they are invited to overcome and I see, I saw these parallels, and I was like, whoa, full of this works for this particular branch of the restoration.

6:37 I wonder if the other six churches. If I could kind of fight Identify some themes that correlate with some of the other, you know, groups, organized groups or the the mainstream church and my expectations. My mind was blown because I I had that thought but I didn't really expect it to be such a perfect fit and I'm not speaking authoritatively on any of this. Let's just be clear up front. These are just some insights that I believe the spirit has led me to that. I find Value in and the spirit has kind of resonated Within Me of these things and I'll bring together some of the kind of the overarching takeaways at the end. After we go through these these scriptures.

7:19 But the main thing for me is it's just Just yet another testimony that despite how much darkness is in the world, despite all of the, you know, Division and the the kind of infighting and the wickedness that we see all over the world and even within the restoration, this is all going according to God's plan, you know, the, the no unhallowed hand can stop the work of God from progressing. And, and so, he saw all of this in foresight this, these these book of Descriptions of these seven churches. I believe are very applicable to this current state of the restoration today.

8:02 Yeah and when you first told me this I was I was at first a little concerned because I kept waiting for okay. Are we going to get to a point to where nobody has dirt on their shirt so to speak? Right? Is there going to be one group that just squeaky clean? And the thing that did appeal to me about it, the the The theory you have is that all these branches, right? So so just to kind of break down what you said, your we're going to correlate the the seven churches that are talked about in Revelation with the branches of the restoration and and it's your your I guess idea that that that the seven churches are representative or archetypes of maybe seven branches within the restoration. Yeah, and so I guess I want to get out of the way. First is that, while certainly we all have some mud on our shirt, right?

9:02 It doesn't mean the Lord's not working with each of us on these things, right? And just like you said, he commends us for certain things and he says okay certain things you got to clean up and if anybody whether it was an independent or from a group that says hey we got this all figured out my question would be why you still here, bro? Right, like why hasn't the Lord come down and grabbed you? Taking you up, right? Zion from, you know, above meet Zion from below. And so, yeah, I want to make that clear that that this is not to and pardon the expression crap on anybody's beliefs, or anybody's organizations, or anybody's desire to be independent.

9:44 That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that these are, you know, this is an archetype and maybe something worth looking into. And I did like what you said there too. Also tailor that that this is by no means authoritative. This is an idea. This is this is a hypothesis. You're still working through if I'm not mistaken. Oh yeah, yes. And I think that one of the thing that we can just I mean we're going to be reviewing this at the end to because this is one of the big takeaways but you know we have all of us have these Traditions. Mhm. You're born into the church. You think that's the one? True church? You think that President Nelson is the one man. And and, you know, you you look at very are LDS or fundamental is break off groups or Independence and we have a tendency to kind of look down on those poor benighted. Souls that have gone astray.

10:39 Meanwhile, people that are born into the are LDS or the flds or whatever other branches they are thinking will are guys the one man and you know, we're the only ones that have legitimate Authority. We're the only ones that Are, you know, actually not astray and all of the other people. I'm so it breeds this competitive Spirit of emnity and and division. The thing that really I think brings it home. And why I think that the spirit has kind of resonated that the side that this kind of model resonates with me, is it just drives home the fact that we're all part of the restoration? No matter what branch you come from, or where you go to church on Sunday, we are all.

11:30 We have we have so much in common, we believe in the Book of Mormon, we believe in the prophetic role of Joseph Smith, we believe in the Savior and the atonement. And and maybe there are different levels of corruption in each of these branches. But there are good solid. Humble faithful people in every single branch. And, you know, and I've made friends with most of these branches and, and my Prejudices have been completely dissolved. The more the better I get to know now it doesn't mean I'm blind to some of the institutional problems in pretty much all of these branches. But you know, there's one other thing before we kind of dive in because like we've mentioned it does point out some specific flops.

12:12 I think that it's important to kind of keep in mind while these are maybe General themes that are, you know, the unique problems in general of a certain Branch, you know, I might be in the church. And we might be reading about one of these break off branches and I might still have that problem, even if I'm in the church or vice versa, you know, some of the problems in the church, even though these are kind of generic themes of these different branches. It's not a purse. It's not a, like perfect thing for every individual people are all different. You know, there might be a saintly person within this branch. That doesn't deal with the problems. Kind of General to that branch of the restoration. Ian.

12:54 But he may, or she may have problems that are kind of generic to some of these other branches or we may have all of the problems personally, you know. And so these are just general themes not to be applied to every individual Within These branches, right? Yeah. But the other big takeaway is despite all these flaws. Despite these divisions in these separations, God can work with us and we have different roles. Play as these winding up scenes, get darker and darker and, and the pressures Mount. We don't have to like, if I'm in this particular branch of the restoration, I don't have to have all the pressure of man, we got to do everything.

13:38 I think it's good and very Faith promoting and hope hope building to recognize that that we're not alone. You know? We're not on island, we have other allies, whether they go to church at the same place with us on Sunday or not. God. Is working with various branches and all of his promises will be fulfilled. And we may have a key part to play in that whole drama that is that we're watching in real-time unfold, but we're not alone and we also shouldn't have other people that don't go to church with us on Sunday. Yeah, yeah. Well in you know, I'm not here to tell someone. They're guys not the guy, right?

14:24 I mean certainly I have my my feelings on it but I think there's value here whether that's from an Institutional standpoint really like you were just saying even from an individual standpoint you know as we get into some of the critiques that the Lord has for, for the seven churches. I think probably even more importantly than looking at the institution is you better look at your own heart to, you better figure out if you're guilty of some of these things. Can you can you make changes in your own personal life to make them, make them better? Not a Cent and it's also interesting since there are flaws in all of them to note that Isaiah I believe it's chapter 28 talks about vomit on all tables and so like we shouldn't ever get like, you know, prideful or arrogant or thinking that we're the one good branch and everybody else. There's vomit on all tables.

15:21 If Isaiah's prophecy is applicable to our day, which I have 100% believe it is and so it's very valuable from I'm a organizational like institutional perspective, but since we, since you and I were not, we're not in charge of the institutions where we go to church on Sunday, we're just in charge of me. And so to apply that at a personal level brings opportunities for personal repentance and forgiveness and sanctification. And at the end of the day institution and organization is important. I mean, Joseph Joseph, spent his whole life trying to build institutions and organizations but The atonement is personal, sanctification is personal, exaltation is personal and ultimately these, these Collective accomplishments have to be built on the personal achievements of every participant in them.

16:14 Yeah, if we're trying to mimic what Joseph did, which was built societies, right? Build build communities. The the basic building block is the individual, then the family, then the, then the community. And so, so if you want a good Community, you need to make sure you're doing your part by being Because I kind of feel icky say in this a good citizen of that Community, right? Normally when I hear the term good citizen. You're right. I can't remember. Yeah, yeah, I get a little nervous. But anyway, I guess we're still too close to covid-19 long way, but anyway, all right, let's dig into it. Where do you want to start?

16:58 So let's dive in. Let's just start it. So we're going to be focusing on the first three chapters of the book. Revelation in the New Testament and we'll start with 2:1. So chapter 1, just a quick overview. These are various, it's like the introduction and its various titles and names and roles of Christ. And I think that it's interesting, it's fascinating because these different references are repeated throughout chapters 2 and 3. As each of the different churches are being addressed in this letter from John. He say he He's basically saying these are the words of you know in verse 1 of chapter 2 unto the angel of the Church of Ephesus, write these things saith, he that holdeth the Seven Stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks and that is a direct quote of the last verse of chapter 1, where it talks about how Christ is the is speaking and the stars are these different Angels or Representatives or messengers of the seventh. She's in the candlesticks are these seven churches. So this is just every time, Joe, John introduces and kind of segues into the next church that he's addressing. He reminds us the readers that this is not him speaking as John the man, he is speaking, the words of Christ. So Ephesus is the first church

18:31 2:2. I Know, Thy works and thy Labour, and thy patience. It's and now how Kent's how thou canst? Not bear them which are evil and now has tried them which say they are Apostles and are not and Hast found them Liars. Now Ephesus is a really interesting church because they have not allowed false teachers, or false Apostles to infiltrate them and gain influence within their, within their community. And they do many good works like their sounds like they're very industrious. They have. And Labour and patience and they don't have any patience for the evil people and the deceivers in the imposters. So this is I think a really good like Commendation of the church at Ephesus.

19:20 And in continues into verse 3, a few more kind of Praises thou Hast borne and Hast patience and for my name's sake Hast, laboured and Hast not fainted. So they've been working hard for Christ's sake without fainting. That's that's fabulous. Nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee because thou Hast left thy first love, so this first church Ephesus. Their problem, I believe is that they have neglected, the Preparatory gospel. You know, the first love would be the good news of Jesus is atonement. You know, the first works of Faith repentance, baptism some of these Preparatory things that are getting neglected.

20:06 And, and so, this was the first clue. This is this can't be applying to the church because they've always emphasized the missionary efforts, they've always emphasized these, these Preparatory gospel things, but but various fundamental, People that I've met there have been some times that I've heard that. Oh yeah, we we didn't do any of the things like endowments or any of these other ordinances because we were only supposed to do plural, marriage and nothing else and you know, so it was just like, that's what and I think that that is this is just a gentle admonition that they need to repent. And and so continuing in verse 5, Remember therefore from whence Thou Art fallen and repent and do the first works. So again the first Works, what are the first works? You know, if you look at articles of Faith number for faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism for remission of sins, confirmation receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, I would even continue that into some of the other ordinances Sacrament, you know, baby blessings. These things that we if I still like, for me and you we have our background in the church.

21:28 Church and kind of just take for granted but many fundamentalist kind of have forgotten or neglected to do those types of things. And so this is just an invitation to Repent and and, you know, restore some things because it says Thou Art Fallen, you know. So they're missing out on many blessings because they are not doing some of these foundational Preparatory things. The other thing is, you know, in the for 30s and 40s, you know, if you were if we were our age in the 30s and we were looking at some of the problems in the church, you know, making decisions that we disagreed with and didn't find in harmony with with our testimonies. It's one thing for us because we would have probably received our endowment from the church and been through the temple. And so, like, in those days, I can kind of understand that sentiment that some of the, you know, the grandparents great-grandparents.

22:25 Well, it, they expected. This would be a very temporary and brief Division, and that the church would be set in order. And there would be a Reconciliation, they could come back into the fold, the problem is 20 30 years pass and now their children. Adults. And then another 20 30, 40 years passed and now their grandchildren are a band and they have not had those opportunities that they did to to attend the temple to receive the these things that had been at least to some degree preserved within the church and many of these children of these of these early fundamentalists, kind of just got lost along the way. And so, and so, I believe that this Ephesus apply Rise to many of those folks who, you know.

23:15 So this this this is unique that they have never allowed an a false Apostle or a false teacher or evil to kind of gain influence among them. But the problem with that is, you know, when a false leader arose, they had to break away. And so it's it just causes more and more fractures and more and more divisions as time passes. But again, yeah, real quick because I'll I'll be honest with you. What John Taylor said at the 18? The eight hour meeting, excuse me. He should be up for quite a while where he was explicit. Don't start another church.

23:57 And so that, that really, that trip me up for a long time, trying to work, work around that, because I was like, well, for not supposed to start another church, then what are we supposed to do? And so, I think that maybe some of that was even born out of of the, the major grandpappy of fundamentalism, right? John Taylor, and so portable, I think that that's something that we have to take into account. And that's the other thing I want to say is that I don't want anyone to feel like anybody, whether their independence or in a group set out to do the wrong thing, I don't think that was it at all. I think this was all born out of a Time Of Confusion. And yeah, just wanted to get that out there that, that 100%, that, that this isn't something that was born out of not wanting to live the gospel fully.

24:53 It was just a Matter of what do you do? I mean, there was a lot of conflicting messages going on in this time, Right. Yeah, and so, yeah, that's really important to kind of, you know, get out in the open, is there. None of this show is intended as a criticism, or like, finding fault with anybody because we can easily apply this to ourselves. How many times have I personally neglected? My first love the atonement, you know, applying the atonement in my life being more kind, in my, in dealings, with my family and my filament. Like, so, while this may be kind of an Arching theme of one of these branches of the restoration, one of these churches, we none of us is perfect. I'm not speaking from a position of well, I've never neglected the Preparatory gospel because I think all of us have room to improve in those areas.

25:49 And so I'm not speaking critically or by way of condemnation of any individuals living or dead, right? But hopefully, we can find Value in connecting some of these dots and learning from some of these past mistakes. That's My Hope. Yeah. And going through this loop size, so there's a couple more verses of Ephesus. So now, we're in verse 6 of Revelation is too, but this thou Hast so. So they have this thing going for him, thou hatest the Deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. So who tries to Nickel, Nickel Athens? Yeah. So I had studied this years ago I had to do a refresher though. I remembered some of the vague you know high level details. The Nicolaitans were basically a band of secret combinations in the first century ad and they were kind of like a, you know, Illuminati before the Illuminati ever existed. But they taught in secret, they had kind of their secret agendas and plans and one Of their main things that they loved to teach was basically Indulgence you know kind of if you're familiar with that term from Catholic history that basically if you achieved a certain level of you know advancement within the priesthood or whatever that you kind of were Exempted from lesser Grievances and offenses.

27:23 Now there is some truth, a small grain of Kernel of Truth to that idea if Look at section 132 and some of the promises of the second anointing. And some of those highest sealing ordinances that basically, you know, but it doesn't make any allowances for sin and that's the that's the perversion that these Nicolaitans would love to bring in. And say, well, we have a change, we've attained unto this position. So we don't have to worry about repentance anymore. We don't have to worry about these lesser things like we're living a higher law where exempt from the lower laws and and it leads to To idolatry it leads to ride in a big way.

28:03 And it just, it it is very anathema, to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right? So it's so these first few verses have have addressed Ephesus, its described some of their, you know, the good things that they have going formats describes, some of their problems. And, and, and now in verse 7, He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches to him that overcometh. Now we're going to see this repeated seven different times as we go through the churches. It's addressing people who have their ears open who are receptive to the workings of the spirit and the invitation of Christ to him that overcometh.

28:46 In other words, anyone that overcomes these particular faults with in Ephesus. Will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Now, you know, our Mormon are our axis to the Book of Mormon and lehi's vision of the Tree of Life, rise, even greater depth to the beauty of this promise. And we know that that is a representation of partaking of the love of God, obtaining a remission of our sins. And you know, just that joy that surpasses understanding awesome. So maybe we'll go through the different churches and then I'll kind of at the end.

29:27 Maybe I'll give the names of the different groups that I think may fit and, you know, but maybe should we go through the rest of the churches and then we'll do that at the end. Let's let's go through through the rest of the churches. And if you're not comfortable given a name, To the modern day church has, that's okay? We, I can, I can have people reach out. It's up to you whatever you want to do, it's not that I'm not comfortable, it's just that I I hesitate because I'm not speaking authoritative, we hear that, you know, I wouldn't want somebody who happens to be long to one of those churches, right offended that I may be speaking harshly against their grandpa, what I think.

30:15 I think there is still value to identify that but let's go through all of them and kind of look at it more at a principal level and then I'll Venture my kind of feelings just from my own experience which is admittedly incomplete and you know not perfect. It's okay. Alright, the next Church begins in 2:8 unto the angel of the church in Smyrna. So the second church is Meredith these things. Saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive. And so, this is a reference to verses 17 and 18 of chapter 1. Again, a reminder that Christ is the messenger, right? Price is the source of this message, right? So in verse 9, I Know Thy works and tribulation and poverty But Thou Art rich.

31:06 And I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. And now this is really interesting because it, you know, and I guess I should have said. So there this this Church Smyrna is described as Works tribulation poverty but then in parentheses it says but Thou Art rich Okay, I think that this relates to temporal poverty, right? But spiritual abundance - so. Um poor poor, according to money and wealth and all those. Oh yeah, they struggle economically.

31:47 They probably, you know, trying to feed their families and just get by living, paycheck-to-paycheck, whatever that looks like for many people. They are doing work but they faced a lot of adversity and Elation and they, a lot of that is due to their temporal poverty. Gotcha. And they, so this is this interesting, the one of my friends, let's to call him fake Jews. You know, people who say they are Jews but are not there. The synagogue of Satan. Again Christ said by their fruits, you shall know them. Many deacons many people can say, Lord Lord have we not prophesied in thy name and done, you know, even Christians, there are a lot of professing Christians, even Mormons.

32:29 There's a lot of Passing Mormons, you look at a guy like, you know, maybe Harry Reid as an example or, you know, people who claim to and identify as Mormon and maybe they're even active and in good standing with the church or whatever. But you look at the things that ideas, their proponents pushing and the agendas that they're trying to see take place and you align that with the scriptures in, it doesn't fit at all. It's kind of like the opposite, you know. Anyway so so yeah and I mentioned Harry because he He's, he's dead, but I don't mean to offend anybody, if you like Harry Reid. But, you know, as a Utah conservative, I've always had concerns.

33:09 And my circle of friends and family, we can all kind of agree that. Yeah. Harry Reid wasn't, it wasn't a great representative of the church in our opinion. So but yeah, if it wasn't for that whole piske, you know, abortion thing, and then the socialism thing and they all the longer I mean, other than that, he's great. He's right there, so yep. All right, so yeah, okay, so continuing on verse 10, so again this is addressing smirnov Church number to fear. None of those things which Thou shalt suffer behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison that ye may be tried.

33:51 Ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a Crown of Life and so this, this Church of Smyrna. It's describing some being cast into prison experiencing all of this tribulation and some even being murdered do not fear sufferings or these tests. I faithful and their promised to receive a crown identify this as kind of loosely the independence. You know, people who are kind of independent Mormons. They don't have Lot of the protections of a community. They're kind of more like, you know, just on their own in the wilderness and they're surrounded by neighbors. Who don't understand?

34:39 They're being persecuted by federal agents, who don't have any empathy and have no compunction in enforcing the laws because they're a standalone. Like, a lone wolf is an easy target, you know? And, and I look at some of these guys, you know, Ogden crowd, Kevin Kraut, some of the independence. What was his name? I think. John Singer was a man. Who, if you've never heard of John Singer, he was an independent Mormon fundamentalist, by all accounts. An amazing guy, a wonderful father and patriarch over his household but he was living the principle and in the 70s or 80s. That was much more dangerous than it is even today. There's there's risks in any You know, in this culture that we live in, but he was especially vulnerable in that time, but interestingly, they were never able to have, he went to prison and stuff, but they were never able to, like, lock him away. But what happened is, he was homeschooling and his, his children were not enrolled in the public school system and so that it got, you know, government agents involved and long story short.

35:57 He kind of had was like House under house arrest, couldn't leave his property and because they were waiting at all of the borders of his land and one day for some reason he had to go and do something and he went out to the edge of his property and he was murdered. And so I like these guys religions I can't remember if it was state or federal but yeah, it was it was government agents. And so like these Independents are because they don't have that Community Support structures and they're kind of more isolated. I think that that leads to economic impoverishment, they're much more easily able to struggle with economic things Financial things, they're more vulnerable for being arrested. Put in prison, having these persecutions and tribulations come upon them and even, In the case of John Singer and various others, paid the ultimate price with their lives for their faith.

37:01 Hmm. So now the promises of Smyrna are interesting. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the spirit saith. He, that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death. So even if their faith and their sacrifices, their living, according to their conscience, even if that results in losing their life, they will not hurt of the second death. In other words, they will inherit that crown. On that it mentioned in verse 10 of Life, they will be welcomed into the fold of God on the other side. So you know, I think that it's just, I think valuable to look at, you know, the sacrifices, the various Independence like you were talking about your time of trying to figure out well, John Taylor said, don't start another church. So now what, what do I do?

37:59 You know? He people feel in good in like in conscience that they're being led, you know, maybe they're not accepted by the church, many of them get excommunicated or they just don't attend, but they don't for whatever reason feel led to join another organization. And so they just do the best they can as an independent and there's probably tens of thousands, certainly many thousands of Independence out, there may be some of them listen to this podcast. And so I think it's valuable for us to recognize Nuys the risk and the sacrifices and the you know, the strength that these brothers and sisters have so root and that they are invited as a church real quick.

38:45 Mac and emphasis there was a little bit of. Hey, you're doing this wrong. What, what, what is the Lord saying that, that, that smearing is doing wrong? So that's that's a good question. I I don't know that I can point to like a specific law. I mean, it's just more of a statement of reality that they experience a lot of tribulation and have poverty. Okay. And so you know I wouldn't necessarily say that that God is condemning them for but you know, I guess if they were to experience tribulation and poverty and and these persecutions and falter in their faith, I think that that would be a problem.

39:35 I think that is kind of implicitly being warned against in Smyrna, because it's hard. You know, if you're feeling alone all alone, it's you against the world, it would be real easy to just say, you know, what is this really worth it? I could I could just go back to church or I could go join a group or I could just for go Mormonism. Maybe you know, maybe this isn't all, it's cracked up to be. And and and I think there are some who falter in their testimonies And so when it describes to him that overcometh, I think that that somebody who overcomes that Temptation that weakness to deny the faith and to falter in their testimonies. Gotcha.

40:16 Gotcha. Do you think there's any Well, I'll leave that one alone. Go ahead move on, you know, I guess another thing you could say and I don't mean this to be come across harsh or critical of any individuals, but I have talked with a few Independence and you might say that because it specifically calls out the they they're, you know, they're aware of the threat of the false Jews. In the synagogue of Satan, there is a little bit of a purpose. City amongst Independence to get kind of really sucked into the conspiracy rabbit hole. And you know, there are there are certainly conspiracy facts. There are also conspiracy theories which are not based on fact or objective reality.

41:08 And so we have I guess maybe this could be this is just my opinion. I'm not speaking authoritatively or definitively or attributing this to the Book of Revelation here. Um, I think that you can go a little too far down the road into like paranoia when it comes to conspiracy and so that would maybe be something that the independence in this Smyrna Branch could could profit from. Yeah, the other thing I was thinking, is that If you're an island unto yourself, sometimes you can get fixated even on an idea and there's no one to reel you back in, right?

41:48 Like come here brother, let's talk about this and that's why I'm a Believer. We all need each other, right? We need someone to be like Whoa, man. You you you might be off off-kilter on this one. Let's let's talk this through. Right let's let's reason together as Paul says. And so I think, I think maybe that's one of Of of the dangers, so to speak. But yeah, that's good. I'm gonna have to want to make it clear. I know many many, many good independent fundamentalist, right the majority certainly don't they stay sound they you know they do a great job. So yeah. Awesome. Alright, let's move into the Third Church in.

42:31 So we're now in verse 12 of chapter 2 of relation to the angel of the church in pergamos, write these things saith, he which hath the sharp sword with two edges. So this is a reference to verse 16 of chapter 1 again, this is Christ speaking. I Know Thy works and where thou dwellest even where Satan's seat is and thou holdest fast my name and Hast. Not Denied, my faith, even in those days, wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr who was slain among you where Satan dwelleth. So this is like it just repeats and kind of emphasizes over and over that they're in close proximity to Satan's seat, whatever that may mean.

43:14 But they haven't denied Christ name or the faith. And this is interesting that there is a faithful martyr described amongst this. This church of pergamos. So when you said they were dwelling close to the seat of Satan, I was trying to see I was trying to remember if there were any fundamentalist groups close to the the IRS building but I'm drawing a blank. Maybe you can. You know, there's there's, you know, I'm not going to get too deep into Satan's team, but I think it would be safe to say that there are there is a great deal of satanic influence with in Salt Lake. And so my guess is that this would be describing a group in close proximity to the Salt Lake, Valley Draught you and we'll kind of go into more like, Like details the specifics at the end here.

44:10 The Martyr is an interesting detail of this one and now going into verse 14, I have a few things against thee, so here's kind of a list of grievances Christ is going through, but before we go there, can I ask you a question? Yeah, let's let's talk about Antipas for a little bit for a minute, who was he Who has a good question. I looked into it. I can't remember what I found. Okay. Yes my bad. I should have no no. You're good. You're good dude. These are questions. I come up with off the cuff so I don't expect anyone. Yeah. And if anybody feels that's important and I we can give a follow-up in the notes II looked in a few months ago, but I don't remember and so I don't want to say anything wrong. Nope, you're good.

45:04 So, going into verse 14, the list of grievances, I have a few things against thee because thou Hast them, there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam. Who taught block to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So this third Church pergamos. They have a problem in that, some of them, hold this doctrine of Balaam and and the doctrine of Balaam is that they set up its idolatry is the ancient correlation and and so they Would create these Idols that they would worship and then they would give offerings to the idols. And the people will, you know, the leaders would take that offering that was given to, you know, that was sacrificed to the idols and and enrich themselves with it. And so, I would, I would submit that, you know, I think idolatry can take many forms.

46:11 I think one form of idolatry. Could easily be L worship. Now, this is kind of putting a leader up on a pedestal and saying that this leader is, you know, our intercessor, you know, you know, we talked to this leader, the leader talks to Christ Christ, talks to the father and so we set up this this kind of gatekeeper if you will. I've actually heard some people literally refer to the leadership as kind of The Gatekeepers. Keepers for the people. And and so I think that it's it's wise for us to check and say, am I putting my leaders too high on a pedestal to the point of almost leader Worship in the sense of like, well I'm going to just do whatever they tell me because well, they're speaking for the Lord, their the Lord's representative their the prophet or that, you know, whatever you want to call it there, you know, speaking for God.

47:13 And if we if we Begin to do that. We're doing what Nephi describes as putting our trust in the arm of Flesh. We're putting our trust in a man rather than in God. All sorts of, you know, and I'm not saying this like critically or to condemn anybody because I myself was kind of raised up in these traditions of, you know, just follow the Brethren. Follow the prophet that the God won't allow the prophet to lead the church astray. These types of traditions are very pervasive. Massive with in almost all branches of Mormonism and and and I think that it's a danger to ever put the decisions and the teachings of men more important than getting personal revelation with heaven to ourselves.

48:04 You know, I remember because that was a major concern for me before I joined a group. Right? It really was. I was I'd been down that road once before and I was like Like I'm kind of gun-shy about this whole thing of this kind of structure again. And I'm glad you phrased it the way you did. It becomes a problem when you put the man before God, right? If it and, and one of the things I saw that was refreshing and I'll say this, only I believe it's this way in a lot of fundamentalist groups is that it's almost another witness, right? And so you get your Revelation, you go, you say, this is what I got, right?

48:49 I am a big fan of file leadership. I think it can really keep us out of a lot of stumbling blocks. Sometimes just just a second witness in the mouth of two or three Witnesses, all things are established and I don't think that's necessarily bad I think when it becomes bad as what again. What, what you saw with Warren Jeffs, right? When he said no, no, everything comes through me, you don't get to have an opinion and you will bow. The knee to me and then I'll go bail. The need to the Savior. I think that's when it becomes an issue is when, when it gets between you and God, right?

49:31 When you no longer feel like you can just go to God in prayer and get an answer yourself. that's when you have to take a step back and evaluate, and really say, okay, where am I add on this, you know, where you know, It's hugely important. This idea that there's no intermediary between you and God. Now again, Except Christ. Christ is the great intercessor and accept. Yes, we need a man to intercede between us in Christ. We can go directly to him. He is our intercessor. Yeah, I guess, and, and that's a fine line to walk as Mormons, right? Because we do believe in profits, we do believe in Apostles, right?

50:14 I mean, look, if Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, then we're all here. Just debate in the words of some guy, right? But so so it is a fine line that you have to have some tension on, right? And and you have to be able to walk that fine line. I will say real quick scripture. Really speaking. There are not verses that say follow the prophet. You know, there are verses that say heed the words of the prophets and so and hearken unto the voice of God. So but I think you know, just a quick definition, check of contrasting the word Harkin with the word he'd Parkin is a very common scriptural phrase. That means just basically respectfully. Listen and Obey.

51:07 And when the Lord is speaking, we should hearken to the voice of the Lord, like, even if we don't want to, even if we have concerns, we can humble ourselves and put our trust in God. Even if it even if it defies our current mortal limited understandings like that is a, that is an appropriate time to Humble ourselves. And, and be surrender to the to the will of God. Eid though is very different. He'd literally means pay attention to and almost like When it says take heed that's like be careful of. So it's actually a counseling scriptures counsel us to pay close attention and be wary of or be careful about the words of prophets.

51:55 Heed, the words of the prophets. That doesn't mean ignore them. That doesn't mean always disobey them many times prophets. Our are the the messenger that's delivering the voice of God to us. And in those moments, we should Could park into those words, but not because that man, the prophet said them, but because it was of God, so we should or obey because so-and-so said, yeah. I think that's kind of the distinction here if God said it. And the spirit gives you a testimonial witness of the, that it even, if it comes through mortal messenger, we should obey. And we should humble ourselves and receive that counsel, but even if the same, dude, the SEC The Next Step, Since over says something else, we don't just, you know, obey because well, he gave us Good Counsel last time, you know, and now he's still speaking.

52:48 So we're, it's not like every word that comes out of that man's mouth is infallible, word of God. And so, that's what I think heating is paying close attention, having the spirit and having a personal testimony and moving forward, any time the prophet delivers, the counsel of God to us. We respectfully, Listen and Obey. Sometimes he does not deliver the counsel of God to us. And in those moments, the last thing we should do is just blindly obey because now we have set up an idol. Now, we are just following a man rather than following God. Yeah. And and and we've had plenty of examples, we're just heating blindly, right? That's the other thing.

53:30 I've always said is, don't don't go into it, just blindly and and I, you know, the the other I'll say is, is that's not fair to profit either, right? I'm that's not fair to them because now you put them in a position to where they have to be right 100% of the time. And we forget that these are still men. Granted, I have seen certain instances where men are are very inspired and what they say and and our profits but to take Well, I go back to the LDS talk, right? Where Russell and Nelson. Squishes the water bottle and then everybody squishes the water bottle. I don't think that's Doctrine, right? And so to set a man on a pedestal like that isn't fair to him either.

54:19 That's that's a lot of undue pressure. And I will say, I don't necessarily fault any of the current living leadership in the church and in other branches, for kind of perpetuating this tradition because it's not like it's a brand new thing like you you search back through the timelines of the histories and all these personalities that have have had leadership roles in the restoration. You know, Joseph was very careful and he liked in the Nauvoo period. He said he read Ezekiel. 14. And then he's, like, the people are becoming dark and in their minds because they're depending too much upon the prophet, which is not pleasing to God, like he was trying to convince and persuade, the people who were trusting in Him and knock it off. Follow God, I'm just a man.

55:08 Now it was it was difficult because occasionally he would deliver the word and will of God to the people. And so I it's just that thing is so hard for people to kind of differentiate when Profit is speaking as a prophet and we get a personal witness from heaven. We need to obey that as the will of God. When a prophet is speaking is n. We can respect his personal opinion on this or that or the other, but that we shouldn't take it as gospel and Brigham Young. He was a very strong forceful leader. He had a very, you know, powerful way of, you know, persuading people to do what he wanted and and I think with good reason like Brigham was it was amazing. What he was able to accomplish in the short time that you know of leading the Saints across to the Salt Lake Valley surviving and then building this thriving Zion Society but there were certainly a lot of kind of Follow the Man. Followed Brigham.

56:13 You know, do what Brigham says the Traditions that were kind of begun and reinforced throughout that time period, And like I love Brigham Young, I respect him greatly. I'm Not going to ever say, you know, find fault. But I do think that it's important to acknowledge that some of these Traditions that have become so enshrined in our Traditions today actually, do go back to the very early days of the restoration and that doesn't mean that Brigham was evil. It doesn't mean we reject Brigham as a one of the Lord's anointed or anything along those lines. But I think that we can learn from some of the unprincipled actions that we could qualify as takes and do better in our own lives and break them towards the end of his life.

56:56 He was down in St, George just shortly before he died and he gave a talk in which, you know, maybe I can just even find it really quick. I have it in my notes in another place. But so he shared this sentiment In which he says, I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders, that they will not inquire for themselves of God, whether or not the leaders are led by him. I am fearful that people settle down in a state of blind self-security. Trusting their Eternal Destiny in the hands of their Leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would for the purposes of God in their salvation and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders. Did they know for themselves by the revelations of Jesus? That they are LED in the right way? Let every man and woman.

57:44 No by the whisperings of the spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path, the Lord dictates or not, this has been my exportation continually. So how do we sustain the the leadership and the profit? You can you get a testimony? You get a testimony of what they're saying, right? If they say something and look, any any man would, and if they get off track, you helped influence them. With you know with your own personal witness and and you know, a true Prophet hopefully would have the humility to say, huh. Maybe I did get a little carried away there, maybe I should reconsider, I maybe, I took too hard line of a stance on that issue. And and I think that that there's nothing week or unmasculine about being humble and being open to correction. And I think that that really the best way we can sustain our leaders, whether we're in the church or in a different group. Setting organized, organized fundamentalist group is to get our own revelation.

58:51 And support our leadership when we are in that alignment. Yeah. Yeah. No I think you're right. Because it and this has been the tricky thing with fundamentalism that I can tell for a while, right? Is And I was pleasantly surprised when I got in that that that I agree with you, it doesn't seem to be going this way. Any any longer as much as it did, but for a long time, it was one of these things where you were either completely independent or you put a guy up on a pedestal that was that was was kind of the the two options. I don't think it's that way anymore. Certainly.

59:35 Only the church I attend. I've heard the man himself say you better get a testimony of what I'm saying, right? Don't don't just take my word for it. So I think I think that's that's good and I've heard that come out of other groups and and look whoever you think that guy is good on you you know you do your own research, you your own praying and figure out where you're supposed to be and go that way. But if any guy ever tells you I have the answers. You don't have to pray about this that Might be a dead giveaway, right? Or PR this discourages you from going and getting your own testimony of the thing that he's saying. I think that's something that you want to be a little bit weary of or someone who either personally or allows others to to support or even just implicitly says This is what you should do and if you get a different answer, you're not inspired by the right spirit and just, you know, basically labeling anybody who doesn't conform to their opinion on everything, an apostate or, you know, an Infidel.

1:00:43 That's not fair. That's not right, that's not scriptural. And so yeah, that should be a big red flag for anybody. I do want to I remembered one other point on this doctrine of Balaam. And like, to eat things sacrificed unto Idols. If by hypothesis that the idols referred to like the corollary in our time is leader worship. I think that this could easily be applied to a group that's attempting to live United order in which the members of that Community consecrate their property to the leadership and they take those offerings.

1:01:27 To the idols to the leadership and they are personally enriched by them. You know, you look at various United order attempts that I've seen and usually, the leaders live in very nice, comfortable, well-furnished, large houses, and the rank-and-file membership of that order live in much smaller, not nearly as fancy circumstances. And, and I think, That that would be another kind of just symptom of this. This idea of applying the doctrine of Balaam. How is that going to manifest in our day? I think that's could be a very telling corollary there. Yeah, yeah.

1:02:14 Know if, yeah. And, and we certainly saw that in a couple of cases where you saw abuses taking place, right? That's not to discourage people who I want to live a United order, right? I'm sure there are great groups out there doing it, trying their hardest and, you know, making it work. And, and as long as you don't see that disparity, I think you're, you know, go for it, right? But but I think that disparity that you were pointing out. That should be a red flag, right? If everybody else is suffering and the man tends to be above that that's that's Not not good.

1:02:58 If if you're out there working and you never see, see the man out there working alongside you might want to think twice here a little bit. Totally. Yeah. And it's just an invitation, maybe maybe, we're just perpetuating. Some of the broken unprincipled approaches that kind of have way too much communism flavor for my taste. Like the Zion is not communism, the United order is not communism and you've had other guests that have Clearly kind of disambiguated those Concepts United order is, is a voluntary Association and it is an extremely Equitable Association and the one of the other signs that it's built on these correct principles is that everybody prospers together.

1:03:46 It's not just well, the leadership prospers and it's at the expense of everybody else. It's rising tide should lift All Ships, right? So Okay, and I know we kind of got onto a pretty good rabbit hole there, but let's just wrap up on pergamos. So, the next verse verse 15. It says that this third Church pergamos also has some of them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. So there there is perhaps a propensity within this branch of the restoration to have some of those secret combinations and maybe Indulgence Men, you know, mentalities and by Indulgence.

1:04:32 Like, I think that the way that Indulgence perspective would manifest within a fundamentalist, Mormon Community is a little different from the Catholic idea of indulgence. I think that the Mormon version of indulgence would be well, I have three wives. I don't have to worry about repentance or, you know, being honest in all my dealings. Yeah. We you know, that would be kind of the Indulgence would mean I'm living the higher law and so, I'm exempt from, you know, I don't, I can defraud the government on some of these, you know, welfare program. Like, I'm not making any personal accusations or anything along those lines. I'm just saying, I've heard stories that that sometimes has happened within some, you know, that that is, that is a mentality that is in some fundamentalist rights, absolutely.

1:05:25 Now, this Peugeot most, the next verse repent or else, I will come unto thee quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. so this is a warning that Christ, he's kind of letting things fly as they are the time being, but quickly would mean without warning and he's going to basically Take him take out some of these corrupt leaders that if they don't repent. And so my hope is that anybody listening to this or you know, hopefully we can all take this internally and use this as a mirror.

1:06:05 Where can I do better have I've been you know indulging myself and not paying attention to some of the details because I'm moving higher laws or whatever our justifications are am I am I not being honest in my faith in my dealings. Am I, you know, enriching Elf and and and you know, redistributing wealth in an inequitable way like any of those types of things, whether we're a member of this, these groups or a leader of these groups. Hopefully all of us can use this as a personal mirror to find. Where can I Repent right hand and this warning though does seem to be more directed at the leadership of pergamos and and that you will fight against them.

1:06:48 So he's not going to hold them in this corruption. He's actually going to You know, remove their influence and, and remove them from those positions, he that hath an ear. Let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches to him that overcometh with in pergamos, will I give to eat of the Hidden Manna and will give him a white stone and in the stone, a new name written which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it So the promise of pergamos is actually quite beautiful like, give to eat of the Hidden manna. This I think is just a reference to the children of Israel in the times of Moses, when they're wandering in the wilderness, they didn't know where their next meal was coming from.

1:07:33 And, you know, if you're like just to go back to that United order kind of reference, if you're part of a United order and you recognize some red flags, the challenges is it's really hard to walk away. Because you have nothing, you know, because you in many of these orders the house is not in your name, the title and the deed is not in your name, it's in the orders name or the leaderships name and and so like and theirs and they'll say, oh, you're welcome to leave. We're not forcing to stay here but you literally have to walk away and if you've been in that trying to, you know, build equity or contribute to it for four years or decades or your whole life, and you're just now going to walk away.

1:08:16 Like that's a big sacrifice and it's could be scary. I think that this, this eat give, I will give to eat of the Hidden Manna, is a is basically a promise that God will provide and, you know, Mana is, it was just a gift that kind of distilled Out of Heaven. And the people walked out of their tents in the morning and it was there and they were sustained. And I think that if we have that faith, if that is what God is giving anybody listening to this, or considering that these ideas, the prompting that they should get out of that situation. Ocean. It's going to be a big scary sacrifice, but God will provide and he will take care of you.

1:08:58 I think it's also important when you say something. Yeah, yeah, I was going to say. I think it's also important that we we make the clarification that the Lord's not going to provide, if you're not doing your end to, right? Like, if you decide, if you get burned by buy a bag group and then you toss the baby, A out with the bathwater, I'm not sure those same promises apply, you know what I mean? If you say, well, the whole Mormonism things bunk and there's no God and that sort of stuff, I don't think you can can reasonably expect that, you're going to get get those blessings. So, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because you would mixed up with a bad group, doesn't mean there's not not truth there in Mormonism as a whole. Yeah and I don't know too many but I met a few like brothers and sisters that were formerly in the Warren Jeffs flds organization and you know my heart goes out to them because they literally did walk away from everything that you know, their lives and many of their family connections. Like is a massive sacrifice but this says to him that overcometh so I think that this is specifically referring to somebody who retains their solid foundation their testimony and Thin the gospel and yet, maybe makes those sacrifice and takes that leap of faith.

1:10:23 And so if you can, if you can get out of a bad situation, but retain your faith in the gospel, I believe, that is what is meant by to him that overcometh. And it's not just the hidden Manna. It says, we're all this pergamus is also promised to receive a white stone and, you know, and a new name. And I think that this is is referring to basically Seer Stones. Seer ship the ability to obtain Revelation. I think that when you're in a, you know, a condition where you've set your leaders up on an idol, you've made Idols out of your leaders. There's a, you know, inequity amongst the leadership versus the membership and you know, this Dynamic doesn't just apply with Mormonism just anywhere.

1:11:13 But when you have that perspective, Even you've basically allowed a man to to stick himself between you and God. That is a barrier to Revelation and and when you can repent and overcome and get out of that situation and retain your faith and testimony now you can you've unlocked God, can now provide that stone in new name which is representative of kind of some Temple covenants and promises and section 130. If you want to look at that. These are these are really Heavenly gifts. It's and the most important aspect of it is I believe receiving Revelation. Yeah absolutely well and this kind of ties back into to back with a conversation.

1:11:58 I was having not that long ago. I want to say a couple months ago where where the conversation was coming up about how do you become an effective missionary if you will or an effective witness of Christ. And the thought came to my mind. Just set up the appointment right. Just set up the appointment. Just point somebody back towards Christ and say look, this is what you did for me. You can have this too and anybody that sets them up, set somebody up to say look you you know, don't worry about personal relationship. With Christ have one with me and I'll I'll I'll do the legwork for you.

1:12:39 I'll be the one that I'll be the one that introduces you to Christ. Like your are people who have literally said that that sentence and and people have surrendered that power to them. Yeah. And I think that's the invitation here is to overcome that condition. Yeah. Yeah. As if you want to Be an Effective Minister for Christ, the best thing you can do is set up the appointment and then get out of the way and let the spirit, and Christ you their work. So if you're if you're putting yourself or there's somebody, that's putting your themselves between you and Christ, that should be something, you should be a little wary of Yep.

1:13:25 All right. So that's the that's pergamos in Revelations. Chapter 2 verse 18. Now we're going to go into thyatira, okay? And if you know a better pronunciation like I'm just a hick from Utah. So this is just my best of to like announcing. We're going to go with it, so thyatira these things. Saith the Son of God. Who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire and his feet are like fine brass. This is verse 15. Chapter one again, Christ speaking, I Know Thy works and charity and service and faith and thy patience and thy works. And the last to be more than the first so thyatira, like that's a lot of good things going for him crisis.

1:14:10 Basically praising them for their Works, their charity service Faith, patience. And the last more than the first like, so basically, they're doing more now than they've ever done before. Now, this sounds like a really solid faithful Branch. Whoever this may be notwithstanding. It's not all, it's not all good stuff. Notwithstanding, I have a few things against thee. Because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess to teach and to seduce my servants, to commit fornication, and to eat things, sacrificed unto Idols. So, so thyatira, this Branch this church, they have a lot going for them.

1:14:56 They're very little, you know, industrious and they've done a lot of good works, but they have allowed this false prophet or false teacher to infiltrate. And seduce some of some of Christ's servants to fornicate. And I think that, you know, there are certain elements or factions or, you know, propensities that I've seen within fundamentalism that are basically like they're saying, well, hey, in the days of Joseph people were speaking in tongues and they, you know, they're, you know, they're they're basically saying, why aren't we having these These Pentecostal like out whoring types of experiences in our churches. And I think that is a valid question. I think that, you know, maybe we are too. You know in many in many instances were not. We don't have strong enough Faith to obtain all of these gifts of the Spirit, which the scriptures describe as being kind of inherent to Faith and discipleship of Christ. But I've seen It this maybe it's a good desire, but it gets misguided because I've seen Mormons going and reverting to Christian like Evangelical types of congregations. And I think that the woman Jezebel is actually sectarian Christianity and it is seducing fundamentalist and Mormons who have testimonies of the fullness

1:16:29 to to, to basically fornicate to to give up that testimony of the fullness of the gospel and embrace sectarian Christianity because they're in pursuit of these Evangelical types of experiences. These Pentecostal types of experiences, is that? Does that make sense? Yeah. No. That makes total sense. And, and what I find interesting to on this Taylor is that this could apply to a lot of different branches of Mormonism, because I think it's something that we're starting to see get in there. I know you have a specific group in mind but But I think I think this is something that I'm seeing more and more and Mormonism in general, right? Where we're seeing the more Orthodox. And I use quotations, their Christian thought creeping in. Right?

1:17:23 The the more saved by grace. Sanctification is a moment kind of a thing more seeking seeking after like outward expressions of Right. Yeah, hung's. And it kind of almost that that southern Pentecostal list creeping in. In some ways, not not to bash on Southern Pentecostals if that's your Creed. But I'm just saying that that it's not really Mormon dish. I don't know if that's a word. I told you last week that I had another announcement coming. So here it is.

1:18:06 First. As always, just let me thank you for listening for supporting when you have. I can't tell you how much that means to me. Now, let's move on here. So here's the announcement. I am going to start offering exclusive content on patreon and that's going to be broken down into three categories. But before I do that, I want to tell you why it is. I am doing what Doing here and I'm going to make an admission. I haven't made before on the podcast. Here, as I tell you why it is, I'm doing what I'm doing. Back last September, I lost my job because of the podcast.

1:18:49 Essentially, the the company I worked for was working for a client, an organization that found out that I was doing the podcast and there were some pressure put on to get me to put the mic away and just shut up. As you can probably, guess shutting up isn't necessarily my forte not my thing. So I told them no, probably less diplomatic that diplomatically than what I should have. But nonetheless I told them no and they said then you no longer work here. Now, I was very fortunate and very blessed that I was able to go out and find another job. Didn't take me long at all, however, it did reinforce this idea.

1:19:39 You have that, I'm susceptible because I am so public and certainly while I put my trust in the Lord. I kind of asked him what I should do here, just in case this ever happened again and the idea of charging for the podcast just didn't feel right? And so I was kind of hesitant on what to do. I've also sunk some money in To this for software for hardware. And it's gotten a little expensive. So I need to try to offset those costs if I can So here's what I decided on rather than beg for donations, I want to start giving you something that maybe you feel is worth your time and worth your money.

1:20:34 I've never wanted to waste your time on this podcast. Not once. As I thought about. Okay. Do I put the old episodes behind a pay wall? That didn't feel right either felt like priestcraft because I'm not these aren't my truths. These are God's truths and I feel like this is a calling for me to get those out there. So I racked my brain hard on what to do and after a lot of prayer and some fasting, the idea came to me, rather than put an episode behind a pay wall offer extras. And that's what these three packages. Going to do on patreon is they are going to give you an opportunity to purchase extras.

1:21:15 Now, I want to start by saying this, the podcast itself will always be free. I can't charge for that whatsoever. I wouldn't feel right about it and it just doesn't sit well with me. So you'll always be able to go to Spotify or apple or wherever you get your podcast and download it there. And that's always going to have commercials and ads and those sorts of things. It's so let me break down the three packages if you will, but you can purchase on patreon that will help me. Hopefully generate some income. Now package one, I've titled slightly Rowdy and on that you're just going to get ad free audio and that's three dollars a month. Now, package number two, I've titled stirring it up. And on that package, you're going to get ad free audio ad. Video and transcripts and transcripts is are something that I've been asked for a lot so that you can have all that for six dollars.

1:22:18 The third and final package is the full Renegade package and on that, you're going to get ad free video ad free audio, the transcripts and then two additional items and I want break those down here real quick. The first additional item is a private community Through Discord. This will allow ow, you The Listener to get on and talk about some of these things. With other Mormons of many different Stripes. If you're an LDS person and you have questions. But, you know, it's not like, you know, your bishop and say, hey you want to break down blood atonement for me or plural marriage or Adam God you can get on there and there's going to be people on there that will help answer those questions for you.

1:23:03 The nice thing about this is It's not like a Facebook group where you're going to have. The potential of having someone from the strengthening church members committee, there to take your information down and haul you into The Bishop's office or maybe you're already a fundamentalist, but it's just a question, you don't feel comfortable asking anybody else and you can do that anonymously. Obviously on this on this community chat room, so to speak. Now, the Final Extra you get in that full Renegade package, Which is there's going to be an additional show that I'm doing with Benjamin Winfield, called more fun news and we've already recorded a couple episodes and it's a great time.

1:23:49 And what we do is Bend and I get on there and we pick out three or four new stories a week for that week that we thought were important or interesting, or maybe even a little funny and we break it down from a very Mormon point of view. Now, that last package, the, the full Renegade package, that's yours for 12. Dollars. Now, if you can afford to do this, that's great. If you can afford to buy any of those packages that will help. If not, I completely understand. And please don't feel like you got to stop listening. Like I said, I'm always going to have those podcasts available for you with ads for free on Spotify, on Apple wherever you get your podcast.

1:24:30 So that's it. That's that was the next big announcement. One last thing I want to mention is that in the coming weeks? You'll see a new website up And that new website will have an ability for you to be able to search episodes by topic by guest, whatever it is, you're going to have some options there that you can really dig into the website and extract useful information as quickly as possible to sign up for the patreon. I put the link to the patreon. In this episode show notes, go there, click on it, if you can afford it, God bless you, as always, I appreciate all the support. Fort. I appreciate your listenership and I look forward to continue to bring you.

1:25:14 Excellent guest on interesting topics. Thanks. Yeah, well and I mean I look at it as, as sure, maybe we do have room for improvement. I'm very open to the to the likelihood that all I will say, I am very open to the certainty that most Mormons, we've kind of gotten a little too sleepy. We've gotten a little too, like Pious, and we have lost touch with the the component of discipleship of Christ. That would be like, praise Raise and joy and like we we restrain ourselves because that's not Reverend, you know, and we, you know, keep it down, you know, want to get too out of control and I don't, I'm not saying we should lose control or anything but I think that there is value and Truth to being so overwhelmed by the joy of like a remission of sins that you just have to sing.

1:26:11 Hallelujah at the top of your lungs. Try doing that in most Mormon congregations, and you're going to get a lot of weird looks right. and so I don't think that there's a problem of looking at our culture and saying, hey, maybe we could be a little bit more praising of the lore or maybe we could be a little bit more like excited about this whole gospel thing like but to to revert back to the Christian types of church like you know because because some fundamentalist like even polygamists, start attending these these Christian congregations and it's like They're trying to befriend them but it's like, you know, they hate you right? You know, they don't believe and they think that you're living in sin because you have a second wife or whatever like why are you putting yourself into that environment and butthole? But I feel the spirit there like I've never felt in my Mormon congregations, it's like Yes.

1:27:09 But they're denying the, they're denying, The Plan of Salvation that Joseph taught. They're denying Adam God, like, all of these, you know, fullness of the Gospel principles are completely rejected, but they think that they're progressing but went, but it's really a regression for I focused biggest lift up in a spirit of worship, not the spirit of worship and and in doing. So you're kind of Acceptable to to some some false traditions and false beliefs creeping in there. Yeah seek and ye shall find cannot be a two-edged sword. Right?

1:27:50 So because God, God does allow us according to the desires of our hearts. And so we have to be mindful of where those desires are leading to a leading us to. And it goes on in verse 21, it says I gave her space to repent of her fornication. Asian, and she repented. Nah, so this is just tragic because it's not that that these folks were this branch has not been warned. They've been warned, they've had opportunities to repent, but these have been ignored or squandered behold. I will cast her into a bed and then that commits adultery with her into Great Tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. So, and I think verse 23 is the Dist tragedy. I will kill her children with death and all the churches shall know that I am.

1:28:45 He which searcheth the reins and hearts, and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. So I think that this is basically a prophecy that those who fornicate with Jezebel so to speak and who do not repent the ultimate price. They will Pays that their children will be lost. Maybe not like, it's not, I don't think it's necessarily like a temporal death. I think it's a spiritual, right? They're gonna lose their children to the children will fall from the faith. Exactly. Because there's a do, you might remember and hold on, to some things but the more you expose your kids to false Doctrine and false ideas, They'll take it and run with it. Yes yeah no, that makes sense.

1:29:37 So yeah continuing on into verse 24 but I say in but unto you I say and unto the rest in thyatira as many as have not this Doctrine in which have not known the depths of Satan at the as they speak I will put upon you, none other burden. So losing, their children will be burden enough. But that that which she have already hold fast till I come. So don't allow this Jezebel seductress to shake. You from the things that God has given you the testimonies that you already possess hold fast until I come and And and he that overcometh. Okay, so now we're pivoting into like, so we've talked about kind of the the challenges that are unique to this this branch and maybe certain individuals within it. But we're also pivoting now into My app, just crashed. Hold on. so now we're pivoting into kind of the, the promised blessings if they overcome, if they, if they repent and and hold fast to the things that they've received, there we go. He that overcometh and keepeth my Works unto the end to him. Will I give power over the

1:31:10 nation's? This is fascinating. So this thyatira church, number four, they are going to be, I mean, it basically nations would imply political power, right? Okay. And he shall rule them with a rod of iron. So so thyatira the church. This branch of the restoration will rule with a rod of iron. Now that could sound super-severe, which if you look at the lawlessness and the you know the the chaos in the world today people that come to to to hear I believe that this branch is actually in Missouri today and and so when it's talking about these nations flowing to them and given Power over them.

1:31:58 I think that this is a reference to come to Zion like the, you know, when when Zion is established and a city is beginning to be built and the scriptures talk prophetically about all nations will flow unto Zion and will say, teach us the laws of God because they have forgotten. You know, if you look at our nation today, 99% of the population of the u.s. don't understand what God's law is. Right. You know? And because you look at the early days, the founding fathers they knew very clearly what God's law was and they tried to do their best to pattern the Civil codes that the constitution of the legal code, the law of the land after God's law. And that's what led to the freedom and the prosperity that we have enjoyed as our heritage As Americans. But as we depart from that standard as we forsake, the laws of God and and go whoring after our own, Own desires, are, you know, and other gods we eventually we forget what God's law even is and Zion is going to be governed by God's law. So it's it may feel like a rod of iron straightening you out, but I think the other thing that's really fascinating about the rod of iron, if you think about the vision of Lehi and the tree of life and when Nephi sees the same vision and he asks for the Rotation of the rod of iron,

1:33:29 it's the word of God, you know, it's you know, so you could interpret that as scriptures but then if you think of the word of God and then the Book of John, it says, in the beginning was the word and was the word was with God, and the Word was God. Without the word was not made. Anything that was made. And in verse 10 it says and the Word was made flesh and dwelt Among Us. So the word of God is scripture but it's also Christ. So Zion will be presided over this is That Christ will reign personally upon the earth, and the people prior to his triumphal return, and raining in the flesh during the Millennium, the people who will be building up, Zion will be led by Christ. They will be instructed by Christ and I think that that's what is is ultimately.

1:34:18 This is kind of the deepest layer of this verse 27 that thyatira shall rule them the nations with a rod of iron In other words, according to Christ's personal instructions, as the vessels of a Potter, shall they be broken to Shivers? So the hardness that we bring in to Zion isn't going to last because we will be governed by Christ or we won't be in Zion and and and any of our false Traditions or the hardness of our hearts that we carry to Zion will be broken and I will give him the Morning Star verse 28. Now, the Morning Star, I actually had to do a little bit of research on that too.

1:35:05 And I found a couple I love scriptures in the Bible that refer to the Morning Star as yet another name of Christ. So in other words to him that overcometh of thyatira priced, will they will be able to receive Christ and he will personally minister to them. He that hath an ear. Let him hear what the spirit saith, unto the churches. Hmm, fascinating So yep so that's sites here. Now the that's the end of chapter 2 now we're going to dive into Revelations chapter 3, was there anything you wanted to say before? We do know I was just passing stuff. That was good stuff.

1:35:45 Alright. So 3:1 unto the angel of the church in Sardis Sardis is well we'll discuss will discuss the attributes because I think there's some really fascinating. Anything's here and say half the seven spirits of God, the Seven Stars. I Know Thy works that thou Hast a name that thou livest and art dead. So again Christ is speaking, that's from chapter 1, verses 4 and 16 kind of a reference to some of his titles, but it talks about you have, I know. So Christ knows the works of Sardis and thou Hast a name that thou livest and art dead.

1:36:29 So, a name, this could be very literal. It could be symbolic of maybe a reputation that they are a living church, but they're actually dead. And so Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die. So any folks who feel that they are, maybe part of Sardis, you're in a church that has a name of being or a reputation of being a living. Church. But it's actually dead the like it's not very living anymore. Strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die for.

1:37:09 I have not found thy works perfect before God. Now, I'd like to read an alternate. So that's from the King James, which is also the the Joseph Smith, like inspired version. But I found verse 2 was kind of like not super clear. So I was on Bible Hub and I found a New Living Translation. Installation that I think clarifies these ideas a lot better. So again Sardis wake up, strengthen what strength and what little remains for even what is left? Is almost dead. I find that your actions do. Not meet the requirements of my God.

1:37:50 Hmm. Remember therefore how thou Hast received and heard and hold fast and repent if therefore Thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief. And thou shalt not know what hour, I will. Come upon thee. So Sardis Church, number 5 membership here must repent, and remember what it has received and heard in the past and hold fast to it. If you don't Christ will come as a thief, which means that he's going to take you is he will still like a thief and will be lost to you. The things that you think you have will be taken from you and you don't even see it coming.

1:38:33 Thou Hast a few names, even in Sardis, which have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy. So, this is an Institutional condemnation, not an individual, there are individuals even in Sardis Who Remain worthy and have, not defiled their garments. And, and so to them, I would say if you're incident, you know, I think some of these others, it makes sense to kind of hold to the end. Some of the names, I think if it's not already pretty obvious, I'll just come out and say, I believe this is the, the mainstream mother Church LDS is incorporated.

1:39:13 I think this is the, the, you know, they literally owned the trademark of the name. So now has two name like they have church, right? It doesn't get much more clear than that, right? So they've got the name, none of these other branches. Technically legally owns the name. They have a reputation of being a living church but as an institution it is a dead branch. And the folks that are within Sardis, like I think anybody probably listening to this podcast is pretty concerned about the current state of enter the trajectory and the and the rate of acceleration of have where things are headed within the church. And I would just encourage any brothers and sisters who are still within a church that are listening to this. To do not defile, your garments hold fast to the the teachings of the restoration, the scriptures, the words of Joseph and, and the temple ordinances the covenants that you have made, not the not the revised ones that are available today, but the ones you've first received that were, you know, close a little further, Upstream, quite as muddy. This is it's a difficult place to find. and yourself to realize I am in Christchurch but the church has a has abandoned Christ's gospel and and I have

1:40:47 great empathy because I've been there and and I guess my message is You know, got we can use all of the good people in the church that we can get. And you know, it may feel like an uphill battle because it is you may be the minority because you are but hold fast, don't defile, your garments. Don't break your covenants and God needs righteous servants within even the dead branch of the mother church and you know and there are still Good people that God has not forgotten.

1:41:27 Let me just keep going here in verse 4. So the few names even in Sardis, which have not defiled their garments, they shall walk with me in white for they are worthy. He that overcometh in Sardis the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life. But I will confess his name before my father and before his angels. So boy, brothers and sisters, who are in the church? The Lord sure seems to be pointing out that that that there's not a lot of them coming out of this, right?

1:42:08 I mean is that the vibe you're getting? Yeah, I mean and this is not really surprising given. You think about The Sermon on the Mount where it's talking about the the gate, the the path the road to condemnation is Broad and many there be that find it and the the path to life is narrow and straight and few there be that find it. I will say the church. The LDS Incorporated mainstream church is by far the largest numeric Branch. So few could still be a good number, you know, we could be. So Talking maybe, tens of thousands. I I would hope that there would be tens of thousands of faithful Saints still within the church membership rolls, but I think that their numbers are dwindling and and they will continue to decrease as the trajectory of the church moves forward.

1:43:04 And so, I think it's this this this concept real quick, I just finish up this one thought of being clothed in white that is to me a promise that Even if you feel like a an island in the church like you're the only one still standing for the principles of the Constitution and the restoration, like the original teachings and have a testimony of Joseph, and all of these things and they're not getting swept up in the moment. Like even if you feel very isolated in that situation, your God has not forgotten. You Christ will confess your name to the father. He and you will be clothed in white and Christ will present you.

1:43:47 Before the father, he that hath an ear, let him hear you, are you were going to say something? Yeah, this is always a little bit of a touchy subject for me because I get Dude, I'll be honest, I get probably 50 emails a week on this subject, right? Like I know something's wrong but I feel like God's telling me to stay and that's a tough place to be. It really is my I have a lot of sympathy. I have a lot of compassion because obviously I have a, I have a lot of admiration. Yeah.

1:44:27 Because in that situation, In it would probably be even as hard as it is. To be an independent fundamentalist is probably easier than being. The only one swimming upstream and everything else is going the opposite direction, right? I've had people ask me, well, when is it, do I get out and I'm like don't ask me bro? That's that's between you and your God, right? You better get comfortable with with asking him that question, you know, you got to kind of ask the Lord. What, what is my red line? Right way. Is the line that cannot be crossed before I have to leave? For me. It was it was the can't even say the last round of Temple changes.

1:45:08 Now it was the round before that where I was like okay I'm and and this was just me I'm not telling anybody else what's you but for me I was like this is getting close to that whole mocking. God thing right? Because because I know II know what was there before and I know what's here now and so I've got that now that May not be everybody's red wine. The Lord may have you there simply to be a Mormon to witness the downfall to be one. That bears testimony. And if that's your calling, God bless you. Because you got, you got to have some patience and some fortitude. So this is one of those things where where, you know, I'm like, look, you've got to make these decisions.

1:45:54 With God. Don't let me influence. You don't let Taylor influence you. You go to your God and you figure out when it is it's time for you to leave. So I want to be clear on that and I think that another I think I we kind of covered it a little bit but it seems like a great time to remember and remind ourselves the beauty of this perspective of the seven churches in Revelations, 2 & 3 is to realize that Okay, I might be in this Branch but this isn't the only Branch. This is not the only church and to know that you're not alone and to know that each different branch of the restoration.

1:46:37 Each different church has a role to play and you are being uniquely prepared for your future roles by your current experiences. And so, if you're calling is to stay in Sardis, then Then that is your calling and we will support you and we consider you allies and friends and brothers, and sisters in the gospel. Even if we go to totally different churches, on Sunday and maybe some of our other friends, think that that's impossible, that you can't both be part of restoration. We are this this interpretation of Revelations really drives the point home and so we can be much more. I think supportive of one another in our Unique different roles as we move forward.

1:47:28 In preparing for the second coming. Absolutely. And and if there's one thing I've tried to do, I've made a conscious effort of it. I don't know if I've succeeded a whole bunch, but I've tried to have active LDS folks on right? We're because because look where we can stand together, we'd better stand together because too often and I don't know if it ever brings it up in here, but too often, what I find is that That within branches of the restoration, we tend to cannibalize each other, right? We tend to beat up on each other and when were busy fighting amongst ourselves? The real enemy is at the gate, the real enemies breaking down the door and so where we can stand together, I think we absolutely should.

1:48:12 I mean, I folks like Kimberly Watson Smith can Peterson Sarah Allen, all I mean all active, develop LDS people and I respect who they are. And I don't necessarily want to just pull people from any place that they feel like God has put them. And so again just do as the Lord instructs, you wherever you are, whatever you're doing the safest place for you. To stand is right where God tells you to stand? Yeah, I will share just maybe some of my own personal experiences. So when I first kind of awaken to my awful situation and I realized that that some of the things that I had been taught in my, you know, upbringing within the church culture were not really accurate historically or doctrinally.

1:49:03 And I kind of, I gained a testimony of some of these fundamental teachings and early teachings and principles of the gospel. And I found myself faced with the reality that, okay? I have a testimony that I really wasn't even asking for it, but the spirit gave it to me. I mean, I wanted to know the truth, but I didn't, but I gained a testimony of plural marriage. And I'm not a practicing polygamist. I have not practiced the principle, but I've had a very powerful testimony of it. Born of the spirit for about nine years now. And, you know, I at the time I was very active in the church, I was in gospel principles class of or gospel Doctrine class evolved of all places.

1:49:55 When this, this testimony came over me and it was a powerful like energy coursing through my body. And it just gave me this pure knowledge, this this witness and, and, you know, it would be real convenient to convince myself. I was just, you know, deceiving myself for it was a hallucination. Nation or who knows, you know, you to just forget it and dismiss it but I can't. And and so now when I first got that witness I was just like, oh my heck what does this mean? And because I was like, shoot, does this mean I'm gonna be like a polygamous soon? And and I mean I was open to it, but I was certainly not in the in in the zone of I'm going to go and it's happen and I think that there is value to not rush into things Like you may get a testimony of plural marriage.

1:50:47 That doesn't necessarily mean that you change anything. It maybe it does. Maybe you do need to, you know, find a different branch of the restoration that would support you in in following that if that's God's will for you but it may not. And in my case, I had opportunities over the next several years, to be an Elders Quorum president to be a gospel Doctrine teacher. I was the organist. And so I had many opportunities to serve home teacher and No various opportunities to serve, it would have been a mistake for me to leave the church just because I got a testimony of something that the church doesn't want me to do, or do, you know, doesn't doesn't support and so, but then after, after a few years, the time came that I was led to not attend church anymore.

1:51:39 And and my first thought was okay, well then, which group should I join God? You know, because That mode like, okay, well, where do I go to church now? And the spirit really constrained join. None of them. And so, I felt. I felt led to kind of just be an independent and we did, you know, like, we homeschool our kids, we did home church as well for very similar reasons. And I think that, that, that was kind of a, an opportunity for me to be taught by experience, how to stand on my own feet, how To have more discernment and to to be more reliant on on my heavenly father for guidance and very recently just in the last few months, I have been led to join another branch of the restoration formally and and that has also provided great opportunities for me to learn and grow and serve. And, you know, my family to benefit from there, from the social support and all of that.

1:52:38 And so, my first, I would just say to In Sardis that still in the church today. I know it's hard and I commend you for your integrity. Do not defile, your garments hold fast to the things that God has given you and that you have testimony of, don't be gas-lit. Don't allow yourself to forget, or let go of these things, because your soul is in the balance. And if you are faithful, if you overcome, you will be clothed in white Christ will own you before the father. And, and you may be called to Bear a burden of Having this testimony in an environment that is not supportive of your testimony, maybe you'll even get excommunicated. Who knows sometimes that does happen. In which case always be led by God in the spirit. Don't just go join the next Church. Your branch that you come across because who knows, I mean if God leads you to it perfect.

1:53:33 But be led by God, not your own wisdom and certainly not other men, right? I do think this is something I was going to save to the end of it, we're getting close to the end. So let's let's start. We have a couple more churches to briefly cover but but I do want to say like hopefully this exercise of going through these churches and analyzing it in this way and having this conversation is a wake-up call to basically put to bed once. And for all this whole our man one man is the only one man and an art. Ranch is the only true branch in all of the rest of you guys are apostates, which is so prevalent. And, and like you were saying, I'm encouraged as well to see many people throwing off that false tradition and becoming a lot more open to, hey, you know what, I respect that, you're in that group.

1:54:30 I'm in this group, that doesn't mean that we that I'm the one true branch and you're a false Branch like that, because that it kind of goes hand in hand with the infallibility. T Doctrine, this leader worship. Our one man is the only real one man, and he can't be led astray because God won't allow it, you know, which leads to effective infallibility and it that those perspectives cause so much Division and strife within the restoration. And we just we need to kind of we need to get over it. We need to move past it and get beyond that. I believe that this is a call and an invitation for us. Us to unite with our brothers and sisters of the other branches in the restoration and recognize each other as friends and allies not as rivals or enemies. Yeah.

1:55:22 And and you go along with that we're not asking anybody to. You know, to give up where they're at if they're comfortable there and they've been LED there by the Lord. We're not saying, you know, stop going to that one place and go to the other place or anything like that. It's just a simple call for mutual respect and love and and charity and brotherly affection. One to another Yeah. And I think if it hasn't been obvious to yet, like this is also a wake-up call, all is not well in Zion, and it doesn't matter which branch of Zion that you may currently find yourself.

1:56:05 Every branch has its issues and we all have our problems in our weaknesses and we all need to repent. We all need to put our trust in Christ and in the father we need to overcome. So these are some general Trends but like we said at the beginning, Beginning, you may personally not at all these you may be part of a branch, but you may not struggle personally with the kind of the general theme of that Branch. But you may have others and you may, or you may have a degree of all of these flaws that. And, and we could all benefit from. And so, this is an invitation for personal reflection, we need to become healed, we need to become Sanctified, you know, even if you've repented your Done like you they're the same Tiff, ocation process requires refining, fire and Zion will be built by purified in heart people and so we must become purified and apart and Sanctified if we strive.

1:57:09 And if we desire to be part of Zion in the future and so like and it and we're not going to be the only ones building Zion, I'm sorry these others, these seven churches, the seven different branches. It's not like a hundred percent of any one of these branches is going to be in Zion, but there will be representatives, from all of these branches, who will come together and build Zion when the time comes. And and we can recognize one another as allies and brothers and sisters, right? Yep. /. Let's get through these last couple of churches. Now, I had one last thing to share as we're realizing, we've gone down some good tangents and it was all great.

1:57:50 But that's That's what I do, dude. You knew what coming on. So lame? Yeah, I'm with you. All right, so with Revelations chapter 3 and verse 7. We're now on chapped, on Church number six in Philadelphia these things. Saith he that is, Holy he, that is true, he that hath the Key of David. He that openeth and no man, shutteth and shutteth and no man openeth. Now this is unique because these descriptions of Christ which is clearly Christ being described here but these are not found in chapter 1. This is the only of the sixth of the seven churches. This is only one that doesn't have these titles and descriptions of Christ up here in chapter one but it conveys Christ.

1:58:35 His sealing power his connection to the House of David or you know, of the tribe, his kingship in the tribe of Judah. And so this is a little different. I Know Thy Works. Verse 8, behold I have set before thee an open door and no man can shut it for thou Hast a little strength, and has kept my word and Hast, not denied my name. So Philadelphia Church number six, they have an open invitation from Christ, that no man can revoke, and it's just open and it would it would appear to suggest that maybe they haven't accepted that invitation yet. But it is available.

1:59:17 And eventually the time will come, when they walk through that Open Door, behold verse 9, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan which say they are Jews and are not. But do lie behold. I will make them to come and worship before thy feet and to know that I have loved thee. So so this church, this branch of the restoration, they do not deny the name of Christ, that's really important in verse 8, but it's interesting because in verse 9, it starts describing things like this synagogue of Satan these fake Jews and it's saying that the these fake Jews will be forced or, you know, compelled to come and learn how to Worship in truth.

2:00:07 From this branch of the restoration now. There are surprisingly a lot of people within the restoration who have felt inclined to to start doing like some of the Passover and the Sukkot and Shavuot and some of these ancient Hebrew feasts and holidays and festivals and and become more of a like Messianic Orthodox kind of Jewish practice of the rest of the form of the restoration. And I think that, as long as they do not deny Christ name and hold fast the to the restoration.

2:00:47 This is an interesting Branch, the these the fake Jews who are, you know, maybe culturally Jewish but are not actually worshiping at, is God ever asked of the user of any of the ancient Hebrews. They're going to be taught by this brand. And in verse 10 because thou has kept the word of my patience. I will also keep thee from the hour of Temptation which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the Earth. And behold, I come quickly hold that fast which thou Hast that? No man take thy Crown. So they're promised protection, if they will hold fast and someone I guess it may be. Some people may try to take their Crown so you know, they'll be able to keep it if they hold fast verse 12. This begins to come to go through some of the promises of this Branch him.

2:01:43 That overcometh. Will I make a pill? Her in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out. And I will write upon him, the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of Heaven, from my God. And I will write upon him my new name. So if they overcome which to me is just hope that holding fast and also walking through that Open Door, the invitation has been extended once. They accept it, they have been promised to be Just part partakers of the temple, but to be made a pillar in the temple. This to me suggests some Priestly roles in the temple of Jerusalem. And so this is a very interesting promise to the, to this Branch, this is this is this is quite a unique Church, you know?

2:02:36 Right. This this particular one and it's Philadelphia and Anyway, so we'll talk about, maybe some speculation on who that could apply to in just a minute. Let's go through the very last church. So this is verse 14. The seventh Church on to the Church of the laodiceans, write these things, saith the amen, the faithful and true witness the beginning of the creation of God. That's a title of Christ. In verse 5 of chapter, 1 loud. Asea I Know Thy works that thou art, neither cold nor hot. I would Would that thou Wert cold or hot? So loud of a see it.

2:03:20 There's there's it's kind of a fence writing type of a of a group warm so then because Thou Art lukewarm and neither cold nor hot. I will spue thee out of my mouth. Now this one may apply generally to the group of loud, ecija this particular church or Branch, but I think that all of us have at least some opportunity to become a little more hot or cold in our discipleship, whether it could be in How we practice our religion, in our political involvement, how we practice our religion in our family relationships, how we do it in our communities, let alone in our church in our faith, right? You know, dipole ship is, is a whole life Pursuit, not just a Sunday, you know, spiritual Pursuit and so I will spue thee out of my mouth because you're lukewarm, you remember that story, a friend of mine, shared a story. About, you know, there is this big field and Christ was on one side and Satan is on the other side, the devil and they were trying to persuade people to come and follow after them and right down the middle was a big fence separating the two and all of the people had to pick one side or the other and you know many followed Christ, many followed the devil. One guy wouldn't pick.

2:04:43 He refused both sides didn't really like the terms either way and so So everybody else had made their decision and we're kind of wandering off and the Devil comes back and he's like, looking around and like, like he lost something and he looks around and the guys like are you looking for something? And the devil looks up at him and he's sitting on the fence and he says, oh there you are. Come with me and the guys, like, I didn't pick you, And the devil's, like, I know you didn't take me, but I own the fence, that's pretty good. So so yeah, this idea that we can, you know, play the Diplomat or play both sides or not, make a firm commitment, one way or another, not making a commitment is also a commitment.

2:05:29 It's a decision. And so that's a warning in general of this seventh church, this Branch. But I think that all of us personally should consider that and, you know, look in the mirror, right? Comes to that this, these next verse 17. This is kind of unique. This Branch this allowed to see you because thou sayest. I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing and knowest, not that thou art wretched and miserable and poor. And And blind and naked. So this is kind of the inverse of thyatira that the second Church on, you know, was there The second Rouge was.

2:06:20 Ephesus loudest. I don't know why it's so I can't I can remember. So the theater is not the the second Church artists thyatira Philadelphia. We're going MOS. Is it Smyrna, Smyrna? That suit is so Smyrna, is kind of the inverse. Smyrna is described as basically temporally in poverty. But spiritually, Rich loud. Asea is basically described as temporally, very rich or wealthy increased with Goods. They don't need anything but they're actually spiritually impoverished. The Wretched miserable poor blind and naked, that's interesting.

2:07:05 Yeah. And and if it's a general thing, that applies great but it could also apply personally doesn't apply to me. You know, I feel like tevye if riches are a curse. May God smite me with it and I never recover. Yeah, I I could I could I could probably figure out how to deal with that curse if it came down to it. That's not a, That's Not My Cross to Bear, but I know that many people do have that and And it, I would invite any individuals that this applies to. That does enjoy personal, you know, temporal wealth. Make sure that you're not neglecting the spirit, right? So Verse 18.

2:07:52 I counsel thee to buy of me. Gold tried in the fire that thou mayest be rich and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed. And that the shame of thy nakedness, do not appear, and anoint thine eyes with eye Salve. That thou mayest. See. So the priority here so you don't put our trust in temporal Goods. Gold is a precious metal and it retains value. It's a hedge against inflation. I mean it's a great investment. If you have like a retirement or prefer portfolio 100%. I think gold is a great place to put that but this is referring to a spiritual purchase of God. In other words, we make voluntary payments to God. We would Translate that to sacrifice, this is the principle of sacrifice.

2:08:40 When you lay a sacrifice on the altar, we are making a spiritual payment to God of our own free will and choice. And and really the any religion that doesn't require the sacrifice of all things. Cannot produce the faith necessary to Salvation. It's not just because God wants our stuff, he's got all this stuff like he doesn't need our stuff. We need to surrender and make that voluntary, sacrifice in payment. In order to Humble ourselves, choose to be humble, rather than compelled to be compelled to be humble. And this is really, by making those sacrifices. And it may be in the form of, like, the rich, man, who asked, Jesus, what lack I yet and he says, give everything you have to the poor and follow me. It could be a sacrifice of all worldly wealth. I don't know.

2:09:27 I'm not that. I'm not God. If that is your cross though, if that's God's calling for you, it's worth it. Like it may seem like money. You have the harder. It probably is. Is to sacrifice everything. If you're, if you got nothing giving everything away. So you can follow God, isn't that big of a sacrifice? I think that the nature of these temporal riches is it can? If we're not careful, it can be a barrier to discipleship. And so, we need to obtain spiritual wealth. And, you know, it talks about nakedness. So spiritual clothing or armor. The armor of God. Yep. And then I Sava talks about we And discernment.

2:10:08 We need to be able to see and perceive truth spiritually. And so it's referring to this eye Salve. These are the things that when you make that spiritual payment to God, he will give you a us. The gift of protection armor, and site discernment verse 19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten be zealous therefore and repent. Behold I stand at the door and knock If any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with me. So Christ is there he is not the limiting factor in this invitation he's waiting, it's the this individual or this church.

2:10:55 This Branch to open the door and, you know, receive and you know the The, the spiritual ears and open up to him to him that overcometh. Will I grant to sit with me in my throne? Even as I also overcame and a.m. set down with my father in his throne, so joint Airship is the promise he that hath an ear. Let him hear what the spirit saith unto the churches. Hmm. And those are the seven churches of of Revelations chapter 1 through 3. Let me go through real quick and I'll just these are just personal speculations.

2:11:38 I personally see kind of some fit, but I could be wrong. And and I may be missing some, I'm a, you know, the I think that maybe like, for instance, going first off to Ephesus, I think Ephesus is a beautiful church. Have they have a lot of amazing, good things. And then just a few things, like, the no. Stop neglecting the first love. Be the first. This would be a, they have not allowed false teachers and false leaders to, to lead them to destruction these. I would say it would be folks like the Nielsen's, the nailers Winston Blackmore were up in Canada Shem.

2:12:20 And some of the Johnsons up in northern Idaho, there's some folks out in Missouri. They basically begun to kind of gather various Pockets that had just been so fragmented. Cuz you know they would see something go funky or wrong in the fundamentalist leadership and they're like, well we're not following that. I'm not going to sustain that or go along with that. And so they kind of Just divided themselves. But they've begun to gather again. And and so they're doing a lot of work, they are. I think well on the way of overcoming, some of the problems, they're still always room to grow and each individual's are different.

2:13:03 Some of the individuals are very far along in my opinion that I know and have worked with in love many others. Maybe are just beginning starting to work. The right direction but that would be my identification of the first church Ephesus. Okay, Smyrna. I guess I already kind of said, yes, we're learning is oriented work on scene and I guess another one. Are you familiar with the guy? There was the police officer. I think Roy Potter was his name. He's an independent. And he gained a testimony of the gospel and was blackballed. He had to move out of state because he was a police officer.

2:13:44 Officer. He was actually very well respected in this field but then it came. It came out that he was a practicing polygamist, he got excommunicated from the church. He got fired from his job and couldn't get work, so he had to move out of state. And so just again, struggled, financially temporarily, but many amazing spiritual gifts. So, and obviously, I think the crowds Ogden Kevin Crowder are some of the very prominent names, angst Independence. So the Third Church pergamos. They I think headquartered near Salt Lake is a good indication. This is probably the Allred group also known as the, apostolic United Brethren and and be the other thing.

2:14:31 I think that really correlates. Well, here is ruling was ruling, all red if anybody is not familiar with that history, he was murdered. By an extremist from a different faction in the 70s. And, and he was someone who testified that he had seen the Savior. And, you know, was it was an apostle in word, not just in title, are indeed, not just in word, I should say, faithful martyr there. And so, man of some, of the cautions, there may come across as harsh or critical of the all reds. I don't mean it that way.

2:15:13 I think that You know, take take it for what it's worth if there is application here. The the it's an invitation to repent and do better and all of us can repent and do better. We all need that reminder possibly Peterson's could be part of that Branch as well because they kind of came from. They're basically like, they broke directly off the all reds, Gerald. I don't, I don't really know the history, but I've heard that he was also a martyr and it was, you know, had a testimony as an apostle and then was like, a faithful martyr. I don't know. I'll defer to somebody that has more experience or knowledge to cease outfit. Anyway, that that's another possibility. So the fourth Church thyatira, there is a group out in Missouri who I have a great love and respect for they are lob family. And, and Kind of network, that's not just the logs, but they're kind of the most prominent name.

2:16:19 So we kind of call them the logs, but they, they are very engaged in preparing for Zion there in Missouri. Not in, not in, you know, Independence, but few hours away. They are in making amazing strides towards just building a self-sustaining Community. You know, they can live off grid pretty well there, They're they're not dependent upon Babylon. Like most of us are right for our livelihoods and four are they they're in the process of you know preparing a temple in that area. They're doing amazing things.

2:17:00 So like when it says, they're doing more now than they ever have before, I think that that really applies what. Well, I think they have seen some of the problems of being allowing some of their family and some of their brother To be seduced by sectarian Christianity and forsake some of the principles of the fullness and the the tragedy that it causes with the children and, you know, families being broken up and all of that. And you know, again I don't there are some pretty harsh criticisms. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to condemn anybody. I'm just saying, if these principles apply whether it's to your group or two, You personally, I invite you to receive them humbly and and the promises if you overcome are pretty amazing. So start person that would that would be the other thing. I'd say, start person before.

2:17:59 Before you think you're going to go correct, anybody else? This should be more of a Call of looking at yourself before you start looking at at your neighbor. So any and I actually I have ties to the lab. So I would also apply that to do Self. And this is something that engine to be vigilant and guard against and also worn my neighbor. Because if, if I perceive a threat or a problem and I don't do anything, how is that true love for my brother and if I don't even warning him of something that could be catastrophic spiritually. So, yeah. And then so Sardis is number five, the mainstream church. We talked quite extensively about that Philadelphia.

2:18:41 This really unique branch. That is Kind of may be practicing some of the Old Testament ceremonies and festivals Incorporated with the restoration, but they are not denying the name of Christ and they're preserving and holding fast that what they have, they have a little strength. I think that this would be a great representative that the the zarahemla foundation would be a great you no match for this Philadelphia Church decision. Who folks are great, folks, a lot of good. Friends. And I fellowship with them many times over the years, I love them dearly as well. And and, you know, and just, again invite them to whenever the time is and they're moved to walk through that door and accept that invitation and I do, I do see them fulfilling a Priestly role in the temple.

2:19:37 Diane, Josh. Yeah, the zarahemla foundation has done a great job in preserving. Preserving a Heritage, right, that that that with the lens, through the lens of the restoration to right through the lens of the restoration that and and that was something that impressed me early on as I got to talk to Joshua. So frequently on here was that even though he was holding fast to those Jewish customs in the Jewish rites like Passover and that sort of thing, he was doing it through the lens of Christ, and through the lens of the restoration. And I got nothing but respect and love for that man and his family. Yeah, and I do see a time.

2:20:20 So in the temple of New Jerusalem, we know that there are 12 temples of Aaron ironic priesthood and 12 old temples of Melchizedek priesthood. And Joseph, I mean, he talked a little bit about some of the aaronic priesthood, but a lot of it was was not ever fully developed and so whatever that, you know, in its full form, turns out to be, I see people like that, you know, Joshua, the zarahemla Station and any others who have a testimony of Christ in the restoration, but who feel a calling her an affinity towards those Hebrew feasts and festivals. I believe that they will be instrumental in administering in those ironic temples Sherman and, and talks about being pillar in the temple.

2:21:06 And then loud, asea the seventh church. This one? Just because of the temporal wealth, I tend to identify with like the Kingston's just because I know they're very, you know, temporally speaking very wealthy. And again, I don't know if there's anybody in the Kingston's that's listening to this. This is not personal and I'm not speaking critically or I'm not accusing, you of being lukewarm or anything along those lines. But I think that there are certain challenges that are unique, when you have great temper, wealth, you're going to have a different set.

2:21:48 Out of Temptations and propensities and things to watch out for then the less cursed like, like I am, right? And and so just, you know, take it for what it's worth and and it's an invitation. If there's one thing I can share your, I guess. Any other thoughts, any other names you want to ask that? Yes, oh yeah. I want to say this. And then I'll, I'll turn it over to you. You to wrap this up here. This is one of the few places in scripture where the Lord doesn't seem to be saying, One way or another is going to come out, right. There's a lot of ifs in these in in in a conditionals. Yeah, a lot of conditionals, so This idea of well it's all set in stone.

2:22:44 There's nothing we can do. There's certainly prophecies that are that way. I don't think this is one of them, right? As I read through this prepping for it, I just kept focusing on the word. F that came up a lot throughout two and three and even if it's not written it's very implicit to him that overcometh. That's a conditional, right? Right. And so so that's that's That's the one thing I would say this is by no means, nobody should walk away from this saying, oh crap, the place I go to church, has condemned. That's not what we're saying, whatever. The other thing is, I want to be very clear that this is not a call to repentance. Maybe you could use these as, you know, something to reflect on, right?

2:23:34 Only you can decide if there's something there that, that, that needs to be repented of certainly I have my list and it is Long. And it is arduous, and I struggle with it every day. I think that's the price of discipleship. We shouldn't shun that we should welcome that to a certain extent that that invitation for personal growth. And lastly, I just like to say I've met people from every one of these groups, certainly it. And if it's not okay I will I'll edit it out but like you were talking we're two guys who who belong to different groups, right? I am a member of the branch. Or the Petersons, you, you attend with the Nielsen nailers?

2:24:14 Right? So we, you know, I feel like, I feel like your theory is very just, right? You're not singling one person out or one group out over another. But I've met many, many people from from all these different groups. I love each and every one of the folks. I've met their great people, so please don't take this as us again. Crapping on where you go to church, because that's not what we're doing. We're not bashing on anyone. We're bashing on wickedness and, you know, treating lightly that they were, we hope that this can be a good reminder of the importance of holding fast.

2:24:55 Like that's another recurring theme, that's in most of these branches is hold fast. What you have received? Don't let people deceive you or don't let people bully you into letting go of the trews in the gifts that God has given you. Come that adversity and the promises are very beautiful. I guess one other thing is You know, in the church. I felt like I had to stay in the church because I had this you know the blinders that that's the only place that was legitimate and as I overcame that I started to think well maybe the church is insufficient.

2:25:36 Maybe I haven't gotten my full priesthood ordinances and so, you know, I think part of why God led me to not join any of the other groups is because at the time, I had this perspective of, well, what can I get out of this group? What can I get out of this other group? What can only look at it. Wrong way, will either. And so, like, I don't think that I would just invite wherever you are. Don't be looking at it. Like, well, what can I get out of, you know, my membership in this church, or this group, or this branch of the restoration, our perspective should be one of priests and Kings, we should be asking God. What, how would you like me to serve my fellow brothers in this branch in this church in this?

2:26:22 And so if you're called to stay in the LDS, mainstream Sardis Church, it shouldn't you shouldn't be lamenting. Will my church is failing me because that it is. It could I understand the feeling? I can have great empathy, my church is failing me, they've betrayed me, those are real feelings and but Christ can heal them. What you what I think is a far more productive way to expend energy and focus is to is to seek. And and ask God, how do you want me to serve Your church and the people, and it's all personal, you know, you don't really serve the institution. How do you want me to serve my fellow brother, or sister that I go to church with on Sunday? That is how we should approach our discipleship. As members of the restoration, we are all great beneficiaries of the restoration and but there's so much that needs to be done and we are the instruments.

2:27:18 We can be, we have been called and invited to be God's instrument. Ants in preparing the world for his coming. Absolutely and here's the thing. If you're looking to get something out of whatever Branch you're in, just serve just sir serve somebody else. That's the strangest. Yet most beautiful part of of Christ's message. You know, is that that part where? He says, if you lose your life you'll find it. Yeah, right. Just just serve. If you just serve you will find what it is. You're looking for.

2:28:02 If you're looking just to be served, well, you're I don't see being served necessarily as one of the tenants of Christ conditions, right? We were called as servants to to our fellow man and certainly our Brothers and Sisters in Christ and within the restoration. So I think we got it all starts with with that attitude of who is it that I serve and and how can can I I be of the most benefit in building up the kingdom of God. And I think service sometimes at least in my baggage I think service means you go do service projects like you're raking old ladies yards and in and it's like actions and or money or you know, gifts or whatever.

2:28:49 And, and those are very wonderful. I'm not taking anything away from that, but I would also invite you to consider expand that service to Simply being kind to reaching out to expressing appreciation. For one another to being loving and It starts in your own home and family relationships, how can you be a greater service to your wife? Well, yeah, you could probably do more dishes and that's never going to be a bad idea. But are you treating her as the daughter of God that she is? Are you treating her? How you would want your son-in-law to treat your daughter like and like just putting those types of things into perspective.

2:29:31 We sometimes take those relationships for granted and just kindness building those relationships. And ships during testimony. I think that's another really underrated way that we can serve one. Another is to well, I guess, first off obtain a testimony and then share it and bear it and remind each other, and we can strengthen our faith through those sharing of experiences and our daily walk of discipleship. I have one last thing, it's a vision and you know this is something that I'd like to share that. I think really ties this principle of the unity of the restoration.

2:30:13 We're all even if we're in different branches or churches were part of Christchurch and we all have a role to play in this in these winding up scenes. This, this was a vision that occurred And of mine received, brother-in-law, on July 12 2020, and this goes back to the height of the first covid summer. So this is right after George, Floyd had been killed and so there's all those bli. It's the last, those, those last few weeks leading up to that, he was killed at the end of May, and this was mid-july. And then covid was about four or five months into that pandemic. So, just a lot of uncertainty in the The world. And so, he wrote this out, I'd like to just read his words. He says, I was a passenger on a long drive through the back, highways of Southern Idaho and I dozed off while pondering these troubling events of the world.

2:31:11 While asleep. I had a kind of dark and disturbing dream. And I suddenly awoke with a question foremost on my mind, what is going to happen to this country with all the riots God, is there gonna be a civil war, what's going on? And in answer to the question, he looked out the window and There's a road sign and it said America Falls. Now, we actually knew this was a sign for a town. Like, you know, this is where you turn to go to American Falls Idaho, but he read it, coming out of that dream. With that question on his mind, America Falls and he took that as a sign from God, that this is an answer to his question. What's going to happen to the country? It's going to fall.

2:31:54 I told my companion whose driving I've seen, In a sign, we began to discuss the troubling core tenants at one point. He brought up a counter argument. What about the White Horse prophecy? Be, doesn't it say that the constitution will hang by a thread? But ultimately will be saved by the church or the elders neither of us had read that Revelation in some time. So, I pulled it up and began to study it. Much of it did seem inspired but I also felt something was off. It seemed to me. That either the Revelation had been misremembered or was incomplete or maybe even was just being misinterpreted. Then for the first time in my life I received a prompting out. Was to prepare myself to receive a vision in clarification, unsure of what to do. I told my companion, I was going to be meditating and praying for a while.

2:32:36 I proceeded to close my eyes and began focusing on an image of a white horse, after what seemed like a few minutes of constant, raishin and nothing, but my own imagined image of a white horse. The vision suddenly opened. Instead of a horse, I beheld, a large tree in an open Mountain Meadow, as I looked a sudden bolt of lightning struck the tree blasting. An entire branch of it off of it, onto the ground. I looked at the Fallen branch and saw it rapidly die, and Decay back into the Earth, it no longer being connected to the large tree. In its Deep Roots, I looked back up to the tree and in dismay I saw begin to wilt and die. Starting at the uppermost branches and slowly working down. The leaves began to turn brown and fall away, leaving nothing but Baron dead branches pointing into the sky. I was given an understanding that the wound that had blasted off.

2:33:28 The branch would ultimately be fatal and the tree was lost as the final branches withered and died. I cried out in despair. This can't be How It Ends I called out. I looked back to where the broken Branch had fallen and in astonishment, I saw less than a dozen different species of flowers. Sprout up out from the ground. I understood that the branch had carried these seeds away with it. And while the branch didn't survive, it preserves. See Deeds that only now began to bloom and Blossom. Now that the original tree was nothing more than a lifeless stick in the ground. I wondered at how a Tree's seeds could bring forth flowers. But as the flowers grew, they came together and formed a new sap link.

2:34:08 Thus the liberty and freedom of God's children would be preserved. I awoke from the vision which seemed to take place in a matter of seconds to find. I had been out for hours. I am convinced that this is a true Vision, but I don't claim exclusive. For complete knowledge of its interpretation, as I have prayed and pondered it. I believe the tree to represent the restored Church of Christ. The lightning bolt symbolized, the abandonment of the doctrines of the little get literal Gathering of Israel. The application of covenants like the United order and the administration of sacred ordinances such as Celestial marriage. Without these things. The tree or the church was doomed to die a slow death and thus, be unable to fulfill its intended role in preserving. The Constitution, the branch that broke off carried these doctrines, or There's another things away, but failed to establish a new tree or church at that time. Ultimately, I believe the vision answers, the question of how the freedom of and Liberty of God's children would be preserved, despite the death of Christ Church, in the coming, destruction of America, as a government and Nation the flowers, symbolize the various fragments and remnants of the fundamentalist break off groups, that will ultimately preserve the principles of the Constitution among many other things as they come together in a new location to the East and re-establish.

2:35:19 The living and restored church and a Additional government in the form of Zion the New Jerusalem. How so yeah, I think that the timing is really interesting because many of these fundamentalist branches Haven't really been doing so hot themselves but we like you've observed. You've seen it. I've seen it just in these last few years, there has been a Resurgence of inspire in a inspired leadership, Revelation and renewed, resolve, and commitment, and excitement to build up, Zion and prepare for that in the future.

2:36:01 And it's not just in your branch. It's not just in my Branch. It's not just in anyone. and it's like you know most if not all of these fundamentalist branches and even within the church, The Remnant those few that have you know that are remaining in the church that are awake and alert and are seeing these problems and and you know holding the line as best they can in a dying Branch like this is a time where there's far more communication and mutual respect and collaborative Brotherhood then I think has ever Ever been in the history of Mormonism. We very much stayed in our silos and forced everybody. Just keep away.

2:36:44 You know, no, no contact zones and those days have passed. I'm excited for the future. I think there are dark times ahead, but the light of the Gospel cannot be a sting extinguished because again, no unhallowed hand can stop God's work from progressing persecutions. May rage mobs? May combine a cow. On the May defame. Armies May assemble I'm out of order but you know but the truth of God will go forth boldly nobly and independent. And until the great Jehovah shall say, the work is done. This is we're on the cusp of a greater outpouring of spiritual power than has been seen since the very beginning of the restoration, not just in a private individuals lives, but in large group settings because without that we wouldn't be surviving. diving, the darkness that is utter doorsteps and I think that despite the darkness and the tribulations and all of these sacrifices that were going to make which could feel overwhelming at times the the brightness of Truth and hope has never been brighter and we can take great comfort in knowing that God is at the helm, he is directing the Affairs of men on the earth and women and and we have an opportunity to rather than letting Divisions separate us, you know, one last little quote, there is a quote, I was reading in the south on a marquee.

2:38:15 Have a Baptist Church about 12 years ago, 13 years ago, it said it's better to be divided by truth than to be United in error and I believe that is a true statement. I think it is better to be divided by truth and to be United in error and but that in a nutshell is formed as Mormon fundamentalism. If we don't like what what this leader saying, we just break off if we don't like, what this church is doing. We just break out like Mormonism has fragmented. So many times there are almost unkempt too many to count various factions. And many of them could just be a single family, like a single household. We have, we have divided ourselves over the truth, and I think that the time has come to rewrite that statement, Rather than focus on the, you know, being divided by truth then United an error.

2:39:08 I think the time has come to it is better to be United in truth than to be / error. And all of us have our errors. All of us have our personal and Collective issues that we can do better and and work through and be healed from through the atonement. The time has come to put aside those differences and unite in the core. foundational truths of the restoration and You know, if not then we probably won't be involved with Zion, we might not even survive the darkness that's coming in. I think that we do need to focus bring that focus more on uniting in truth rather than being divided by truth. Yeah.

2:39:56 And you can unite on truth and still hold and because this has been the tricky thing, right? And and oddly enough, it's been the tricky thing for America as a whole So is this how do you keep your in this case religious identity? And at the same time, reach out to other groups and other folks. So that you can build You can build those relationships that only strengthened look, one of the ways. Fascism was so effective in Germany under under the Nazi.

2:40:37 Socialist Party was They just singled out one group at a time. And everyone said it. Well my group they were coming after those folks first and then pretty soon I can't remember who wrote the poem but pretty soon. You looked around and there's no one else to stand behind you because you allowed everybody else to get cannibalized first. And so again we're not saying stop going to where you're going or you know we all need to come together to form one giant church right now we're just saying worked together, where we can that's that to me has been Ben the overarching theme, it's just work together on stuff where you can don't be afraid to reach out.

2:41:25 Don't be afraid to to help your neighbor, you know, your brother, whether he's in the Nielsen nailers or he's out in Missouri or in the LDS church, whatever the case is. Just serve, just serve and and the rest will take care of itself. Well in the amazing thing is you know you may have stereotypes because you don't know. I from personal experience. I have learned to love and build these amazing french tips and and respect I have learned to respect many friends in all of these various branches and they're way less weird and scary than you might have thought before you got to know him and so we So much more in common than we have. That is different.

2:42:19 I mean, if you look at the that's just the world. What fraction of a percentage even is aware of the fullness of the gospel and and the, you know, the early teachings of Joseph Smith. It's a very, very small percentage and yet we get so upset with one another because we take this for that private interpretation and and you know that may have been fine. In our grandparents time, but I think we have a common foe, the whore sitting on many Waters Gathering her armies to come out an open war against Christ in the Church of the lamb. And so the time has come to put aside the the Preferences, the differences of opinion and unite on the principles and and we all have a testimony of Christ.

2:43:11 And the Prophet Joseph Smith and his teachings, the doctrines and ordinances of the restoration. Let's focus on what we have in common and build a build friendships respect and get rid of these false Traditions. You know, I'll I'll say one last thing I'm sorry I keep saying that but So in full disclosure back in gosh, what was it March when I had the barbecue at my place? Yeah, March or April Marjorie. I had a big barbecue at my place and I had vited a bunch of people from from the church. I go to I invited a bunch of people from the podcast. I mean Joshua Erickson was there. Jacob the dream Taylor, myself some folks I'd actually never met which was cool that got invited through friends. and the interesting thing was and I remember at one point I just kind of was looking as everyone was eating and talking, and I was like, Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not sure this would have happened 20 years ago.

2:44:23 Right? Maybe I'm wrong, but from from everything, I've heard it was very fragmented. It was very, I got my thing and I'm going to stay right here. You got your thing, you stay over there and that's how it wasn't. So, what's that? And keep your distance, and keep your distance. Right. And, and what I find interesting now is some of that seems to be dying off. And, and I'm so encouraged by that because we can keep our differences and still be It, I think our strength isn't just in unity but it's in our differences and and we need to hold on to those as well. But I agree with you.

2:45:05 I don't think I've been been as encouraged as I have been since I started doing this podcast and look, I'm not going to sit here and blow Sunshine up your backside. But I will say this evil has a way of overplaying. Its hand every time and there are going to be darker days than this ahead. But if there's one thing that that God shows time and again in the scriptures as he loves a dramatic ending, he is the master and author of the dramatic ending, and it's going to get dark, folks. I'm not going to lie to you and it's going to look like we lose up to the very end. And I think God will say to those who've been trying to follow him who have done their best. Now is the time to stand and when we stand Evil will understand it.

2:46:02 It's overplayed, his hand, just keep doing what you're doing out there, folks, you're doing great. I love you. I know it sounds strange, but I can feel you at times through the podcast. I'm always here. I love you. That's all I got anything else Taylor? No, amen. And amen. God bless. All right, bye everybody.

2:46:46 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.