Episode #63: The Atonement & Resurrection & The Infiltration of Pagan Gods Into The Celebration Of Saviors Atonement W/Just Francom

0:05 Well, last week, I released an episode on Passover. This week, I sit down have a conversation with Justin Frank. I'm on the savior's atonement in this conversation, Justin, and I recount, and dive into the last week of the savior's mortal Ministry to suffering in the garden, his crucifixion, his triumphant Resurrection. We then do a deep dive on how the celebration of the savior's atonement was infiltrated by Pagan celebrations. And we wrap up by talking about what we can do to take these important religious celebrations back. And that's next on this episode of the Mormon Renegade podcast. The DNC is perhaps one of the most unique books, in all of religious scripture, we hear the voice of the Lord. So, clearly in it, it allows us to jump back in time and see the progression of Mormon theology.

0:50 However, sometimes we're still left with questions as we try to consider and get in the minds of those early leaders. As we read these Revelations, well, the help us with that and get back to the original Dual intent, Drew brownies latest project, the annotated version of the Doctrine, and Covenants will be an invaluable tool with this version. You'll be able to see the original as well as current versions of the revelations with each Revelation. You will also be able to see what those early church leaders thought on the principles of each Revelation. Now, whether you're seeking to gain greater insights into the Doctrine and Covenants, or you're just a church history buff, this annotated version of the Doctrine. And Covenants is a must-have, click the link in this episode page. To find out how you can get your hands on a copy today. You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast. Justin my man.

2:00 Welcome back, dude, how's things been? Hey, Dave, it's been great. It's been great. A lot of stuff going on here in Missouri and just getting stuff settled here on my Homestead. Nice nice, everything going. Good as far as homesteading that thing. Oh yeah. Yeah, it's going good. I mean the weather was 80 here. You know what just be quiet about that here in Utah. It like well you know you were kind of raised here, right? You get it. But dude we just keep getting like not a little bits of Snow either like feet of snow all the time and it won't stop it teases. You like, we got probably eight inches at my place over Monday and Tuesday and then next Tuesday is supposed to be 72. To.

2:46 So all we're doing is setting up for flooding so well that the Ishtar yeah that's right. That's right. I suppose you haven't been to the temple prostitutes enough? No probably not. That's probably part of it. Is that that that I haven't paid? My dues to the to the Babylonian Gods is probably what happened. But no what happened was? We were all praying for moisture and he's like okay here it comes. So get ready. But anyway, Well ma'am, we're going to have a great conversation. We talked a little bit off, are last weekend about doing this, and we, I just recently covered Passover with with Joshua and now we're going to focus on really, you know, the the accounts out of the New Testament of Jesus, atonement and sacrifice and then what that means to us.

3:41 And I think, you know, I can't think of a better guy to have on Help me out with that then you. So let's get into it, man. What sticks out to you about this whole thing? Yeah. Well you know I love the topic of the atonement and it's really been something that's been kind of primary in my focus on scriptures and stuff like that ever since my mission and I was really actually fortunate to have a mission president that he really stuck me with some great questions that have followed me throughout my life and I think there's nothing better than a great question to ponder and really get the Mind activated. I mean if you look at most of Joseph Smith Revelations their founded upon questions and I think that you know, asking questions is one of the one of the greatest things we can do. So I've actually I've got a question for you Dave? Yeah.

4:38 This is a a kind of a question that got posed to me by my mission president. Okay okay it was explained that when he was on his mission he had a companion and this companion of his I told him I'm no uncertain terms that to truly appreciate the atonement of Jesus Christ. You have to have repented from a serious transgression. Now my mission president told me that he was kind of of the opinion that that there's Elder knew that from firsthand experience but it really raises a really to me a really great question. Do you need to have egregious sin in your life that you've repented of to truly have a deep understanding and appreciation of the automa I meant, what do you think of that? So I'm just going to speak from personal experience on this one. When I first, was exploring Mormonism, not even fundamentalism.

5:32 Just, you know, I was I was taking the discussions with the with the elders there to to join the LDS church and as we were going down just the basic things, right? And this was back in like, 95. So you still have the, the series of six discussions and you get a pamphlet in the Book of Mormon. Oh, you know, missionary version. And then you have reading assignments and that was my mission, okay. As I start getting into it, right? And we start going through all these. I go ahead and I just start reading more on my own. And all of a sudden, I'm like, yeah, most of the dump, the stuff. They say, our don'ts in here, I do on a regular basis and some of them were, you know, there were definitely, you know, like Chastity kind of things that that I had violated before I was a Mormon at all and Once I started to really think about those things.

6:37 I became more appreciative of the Savior and what he did, because I realized, I'm kind of a dirtbag, right? I had to have that very uncomfortable conversation of yeah, I'm a dirtbag and that led to a lot of things abuse of alcohol, harder drugs, those sorts of things and I remember standing in the font and just telling God, I'll follow and this was probably how I ended up. On the mentalism fundamentalist. You as I said, I'll follow this out to its logical, conclusion, whatever, that is, wherever you are. That's what I wear. I want to be and I'll do whatever it is. You ask me to do. I just don't ever want to have to feel like I have felt for the past five years.

7:24 Now, let me say this. There have been times that I have had to repent of sins that maybe aren't that Grievous, right? Maybe I've offended someone and maybe I didn't even mean to But I still felt horrible about it. So the thing I'll say is, is as you grow closer to the Savior and your discipleship, even the little sins can feel overwhelming at times. So this idea that you have to have this, you know, Grievous sin to come back from. I don't think so because I don't think for God, there's a whole lot of difference in most sins, right? A sin is a sin, is a sin. Obviously there are some that are bigger in nature because of the impact.

8:07 They have on other people, but if we're not offending somebody else, we're probably offending God. And when you think about that, that makes it huge in and of itself. I know that was a long answer to a short question. Well, I think good answer, it's a deep question, really, I think because the premise of it On at surface value. I mean, my initial on my mission. At that time, I kind of got reaction was well, that's ridiculous. Because, you know, it's better not to sin. And so what, How could somebody who is lived a life in sin, get this reward of a greater appreciation and connection to the tollman in Christ because of that.

8:54 But that was kind of my kind of gut reaction, you know, and not to go into details. But, you know, I ran into some issues after my mission. And I had some experiences. I wouldn't even necessarily say, Grievous sins, but I don't know, maybe, maybe you would call him Grievous sins and it was really actually, after some of those experiences that even for myself, I truly gained a much, much deeper, appreciation of the atonement. It was it me, it means so much more to me now than before, and so, there does seem to be something to that. A friend of mine brought up that one of the, one of Christ Parables talks about the debtor that, you know, owed Oda a little and then the debtor that over the lot and they do that hola.

9:43 How much how much more appreciative is he? When his debt was forgiven him, right? So, in the other she thing is like, I cuz the downside of this is, if you buy into that kind of an idea that that sin will lead to a greater appreciation of the atonement that might lead to this idea. Well then go and commit some Grievous sin, right? And I'm not trying to promote that at all. But a lot of people that I know who are really, really hardcore in their faith and dependence on Christ, really have gone through a kind of a Saul like transformation in their lives. And that seems to be pretty much undeniable. I mean, I don't know for sure if it's if it's actually truly required but I personally don't know anybody that hasn't really struggled.

10:36 And then in that kind of Darkness to really be able to who truly truly really deeply appreciates the Light of Christ. Well I'll say this, right is one, I think all sin, no matter what it is, I think has that ability to separate you from God. Right? And so the outcomes are the same, whether it's Fornication, or if it's just speaking ill of another, you know, I think that that you know the outcomes can be pretty much the same. Now we do know that there are degrees of Glory for a reason, right? So obviously some sins are more more Grievous than others. However I think if it results in the separation of you from God I think it's Grievous no matter what as far as people who have that kind of Of Saul of Tarsus moment. I'll say this for me again, and I'm pretty I'm pretty black and white when it comes, when it comes to to my religion in a lot of ways, I am pretty nuanced on some things but a lot of it's black and white for me.

11:55 And There's times where and I felt this coming out of the font, I felt this coming into fundamentalism. I feel it today that you know what? I owe God something right and I'll never be able to pay it back. I don't want anyone to think that, that, that we have this ability to pay it back, but there is a certain amount of Of wanting to put forth some sort of token saying, I tried. I did the best I could. And so I think maybe some of that where you find people who've had those those moments where where there's been a drastic change in a drastic conversion.

12:37 I think sometimes can be like, yeah, I gotta, I gotta start paying it forward here a little bit. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. You bring that up because I think a lot of it actually. So, you're right, whether it's a egregious sin or a, some minor thing, all those things separate us from God, they all have the same spiritual death but not all of them. Have the same kind of immediate consequences, right? And I think it's really some of the sun sends have immediate or more present, Grievous consequences. And that's really what we're talking about, right? Right thinking about Revis in is is the one where you, you know, immediately like wow. That's that was really really bad. You really end up in that in that place of recognizing. How how damaging that was and I think you're right even small, I'll send you know speaking bad about somebody behind their back, you know, maybe that's not a grievous sin. If that leads to some rumors going around and and leads to, you know, some gossip which Leads to bullying, which might lead somebody into Despair and may be suicidal thoughts or some like that.

13:50 I mean, we don't really know the consequence that, you know, the consequences of our actions. And so, I think really what it is. We need to have committed a great degree that sin to appreciate the atonement. I think what we need to do is we need to recognize the grievousness of our sins to appreciate the atonement. I like that. Yeah, I know I I think that's definitely the case. I like that we recognize the grievousness of our sins because you're right some things it and what I don't know if this is necessarily doctrinally. Correct and I won't ever pretend to say it is. I've told everybody on this podcast, I'm not your Bishop.

14:32 I'm not your priest, I'm not your Rabbi. I'm not your stake president, I'm not your Prophet. I'm just a dude with a microphone but I'll say this. I've always kind of gauged, how bad a sin is by, how badly it affects another, right? So let's say you're in the car and someone cuts you off in traffic and you, you know, have a little bit of contempt in your heart, right? That's not necessarily healthy but the impact on anybody else but yourself and your relationship with God is, you know, fairly minimal. Now you go out and you screw around on your wife. Now you've got now you've hurt yourself, you hurt God, you've broken a covenant, you broke your wife's heart. When we find out in Jacob that that's huge. God counts those tears, you've wounded your children, you don't know what the effect on everyone's testimony. That's going to be down the road. So I tend to think that that sometimes the, the grievousness of sins can can really be dependent upon what you doing. How badly you hurt another.

15:44 If we look at Just the Ten Commandments primarily, with the exception of things like the Sabbath day and, you know, idol worship it all has to do with how it affects other people, right? Don't covet your neighbor's wife. You don't want to destroy a marriage, you know? Don't don't murder. Don't take the life of another don't take from somebody else. So it's really about how we are interacting. Acting with everybody else. And I think that plays into a large part of just how grave this the sin is Well, that's a great point about the road rage actually because that seems like a small thing but the actual I mean, it's so this is something, I'm actually, I've tried, I've tried to work on with myself because I noticed that. Well, back when I lived in Utah, you know, how you top drivers are.

16:35 No, I don't know what you're talking about. I live in this state, we got to be quiet. So, okay, all right, yeah, I'm I'm just kidding. Fantastic except it's those California. It's The Californians. And so that, California and cuts you off and you get pissed. But that happens like three or four times when you just go into the store and you get back from the store and you're still pissed because you're a guy and you throw interacting with your wife's, right? Interacting with your children or possibly. Even God forbid, you get really pissed off while you're driving, and then you do something stupid.

17:15 You get in a car accident, you get you hurt injure, somebody else change your own family. Get People killed. I mean, the potential consequences, even of just getting pissed off for getting cut off. Can be huge. Yeah. And you know, and so I think that The it's losing control of yourself, right? That's really kind. What that anger is. You're losing control of yourself. You're not making it sound judgment and anytime you're in that kind of situation. Like, I don't think there's anything inherently evil that alcohol. But you put yourself in a state where where you're inebriated and all of a sudden you could do some serious serious damage to your life and other people's lives. And that's why I think that's there's such a fine line between the morality And immorality of drinking and things. Yeah, yeah.

18:05 And I always go to the default of, if it Separates Me From God, it's something that has to be rectified. Yeah, absolutely. So you know I was kind of curious when we're talking off air beforehand last week, we were talking a little bit about the worship of Ishtar. Yeah. And I'm kind of curious if you wanted to. Yeah, let's go into that a little bit. Let's let's dive into that. But maybe before we do, I would like to give maybe an overview of what it was the savior had to endure for the atonement first because I want to set that table and then after that, lets go into how that act had been basically stolen by Ishtar because I find that fascinating, I think that's been more I think the celebration of Christ's atonement has been more bastardized and even Christmas on a large scale because it it has just overarching consequences if we don't realize just how important that is. So that's, that's why I'd like to start. If you're good with that.

19:29 Now, that'd be great. So For me. I think when we start talking about the process of the atonement and the events leading up to it, there's a couple things that really jumped out to me that that I found fascinating, as I was reading the account again this week and one was in and it seems kind of of almost a side note sometimes. And that's when Christ is taken by Pilot before the people of Jerusalem, who are gathered there. Here's something else to think about right Christ? Just a few days before rides into Jerusalem.

20:12 Triumphant right there are people who are like here we go. You know that where he's going to kick the Romans out and he's going to do all these things and we're going to usher in this this Millennial Reign and it's going to be all good and Jesus is going to get it done. Well, we know from scripture that Christ was betrayed, he was taken to Pata to Caiaphas first, if I'm not mistaken, it was Caiaphas. And Caiaphas was like, you know what, take him to the Romans. And so, and along the way, he's getting beat up. Pretty good, right? He's getting slapped. He's getting harassed. And so he finally makes his way to Pilot and you could tell Pilots got some apprehension, his wife has had some premonitions, you know, hey, don't do this. That, you know, I've had a dream and and so Pilots kind of you Almost get this feeling like Pilots trying to find a way out. He has this idea.

21:09 I'll just take him out and I will give the people their choice. They can either have Barabbas or they can have Jesus, right? As is the custom Now, when you study Josephus a little bit when you, when you look at some historical sources and some oral Traditions, they say Barabbas was a murderer. But what you don't get is that he was a zealot which meant that he was one of the ones trying to kick Rome out. And so when they take Jesus and they present them to the crowd, You in the crowd Christ for Barabbas. It's because the people are politically angry. Which I think is a huge thing, especially in today's day and age, right?

21:58 Because look, I'll admit, I didn't vote for Donald Trump. The first time around, I did the second time. I didn't trust him. I didn't think he was a constitutionalist. I didn't think he was measured enough. I had concerns, I was wrong. I'll be the first guy on here to admit. I was wrong. The thing that scared me about Trump is that he appealed to people's anger And every time in history, we've seen a political leader appeal to somebody's anger. It turns out way bad, right? And it did this time, right? They gave the citizens their choice. Do you want Barabbas, or do you want Jesus? And by now, they're like, well, Jesus is in Roman custody. He's obviously not the guy give us Barabbas. So sometimes I think we're really quick to allow some of those political divisions to creep into our spiritual lives. And I think that's something that we have to be very careful of That's kind of a timely analogy with trunk getting indicted and all that.

23:03 Right? Exactly. Yeah, we today, would we do we want Trump or what we want Christ? Yeah, yeah. Well, and, and I'm not saying Trump was a, was a bad guy, right? You know, he didn't take the same covenants that guys like you and I took, right? But nonetheless, I won't pretend to judge the guy right during his presidency. I think he did some good things. I think he did some Bad things. I think he was like every other president. In some ways I do think he's scared the establishment to death and that's why they are working so hard against him right now. But do we if we allow ourselves to be swept up, in a moment of anger, What would we do? What could we be party to?

23:50 And so, I think this part of Christ's passion, if you will to borrow from the Catholics, a little bit is very telling about The Human Condition Yeah, well the desire for immediate restitution. Yeah, I wanted to maybe get results and and that's I and and there's also this even then like they were looking, they were looking for a spiritual savior, there were no political savior. They kind of had that wrong, right? And in a kind of an inverse way today though you know I kind of agree with you on Trump for the most part but where we're at now with them?

24:32 What kind of bothers Is me, is there seems to be a cult around him, that seems to be this idea that will you know, he's this outlet for this anger and this rage and as Justified as maybe the abuses that this country has received recently, maybe I don't think ultimately, that's really we're not, we're not going to find Salvation and Trump, no, not he's not cheat. Oh, Jesus. No, no. And, and the other thing I'll say, Is that? If you look at the American Revolution, we got right, spiritually? First before we did anything any fighting, right? You had, you had leaders telling you, you better go to church. You better pray for the protection of Divine Providence. We had better engage in days of fasting and humiliation to stay humble, because we're any God for this. And in your anger, you're typically not looking for God all the time.

25:34 Right. And your anger your like screw this. I'm going to take care of this myself and usually that's when things go downhill very quickly. Yeah, absolutely so and if an a point here you want to jump in just jump in. so, the other thing that I wanted to focus on Was Peter because Peter gives me so much hope, right? When Jesus says, you know where I'm going? You can't go and Peter's like dude I'm with you. I'm going to I'm going to ride or die with you.

26:14 And then he's like, no, you're not because before this nights over here and deny me three times. And Peter, I'm sure Peter was like, no way. I'm your I'm your boy, you know, we're not going to go. You're not going to go through this alone. We're going to make sure that you're okay. And sure enough, he ends up doing it but yet he still is used as a tool for God. And again, I think that's us a lot. I think as humans because of the human condition, we can run hot and cold a lot. Absolutely. And honestly it to me, that's a pivotal moment in Peters Ministry when he realizes that we were just talking about Grievous sins and appreciation for the atonement. I think that was that was a huge one for Peter and The fact that really drove it home that Peter realized. Oh my gosh, wow.

27:14 This is, this is what I am without Christ. I'm I'm nothing and without relying upon Christ in the future. Obviously, he would have remained a nothing but obviously he didn't do that because he, he learned his lesson from that experience and that experience. Even even the experience of him denying Christ through the atonement. Actually, cemented his conviction and his dedication as a disciple of Christ. Right. Right. You know, the the other one that gets me is when Jesus is suffering in the garden, right? And this is the first time we see a savior who's truly in distress, who just wants his friends to stay awake while he goes and Does this and they just can't stay awake. And there's a lot of symbolism in that Oh yeah. Well one of the interesting things to me in the right. The restoration scripture brings forth this idea of the of Christ and a bitter Cup, right?

28:23 And if you've ever drink anything really bitter before, it's not just an issue of I don't want to do this. There's almost like a physiological incapacity to your body. Just will try to prevent you. It just no not not happening. And to me that symbolically, it's very, very poignant to describe the atonement that way. Because I think it priced in spirit was willing. Absolutely. But I don't think maybe going into that, he quite understood, the depths of that suffering, right? And I think, absolutely, he had to, White Knuckle his way through that.

29:17 Yeah, it was, it was even for for Christ to, let's not forget to Christ, wasn't just a mortal man. He was, he was the literal son of the father. He was deity incarnate. He was half God and even for him to, to want to shirk away from that, right? I mean, it just really, really Drives home, the sacrifice that he made and the things that he was willing to do for us do for me. you know, yeah, and as far as those apostles who just could not stay awake, Oftentimes, there there's times I'll look at the news or I'll look at what's happening with in Mormonism and I want throw my hands up. I'm like, I don't want to do this anymore. It's not making an impact.

30:12 I'm done. I'm gonna go downstairs. I'm going to turn on football. I'm going to grab a bag of Doritos and I'm done right? Good, screw this. I think that's the equivalent of going to sleep now, right? And we hear this a lot from people is I'm just going to disengage and look, I think I think it's a clever trick, right? Because we sometimes look at disengagement as a means of safety and maybe on some level it could be but the problem doesn't get resolved with disengagement. And so there's this idea of being awake, not woke awake and being able to to identify what's happening and understand the significance of it, right?

31:05 Like if there, if an angel had came down and told them, hey, you're going to want to pay attention to this because this is the pivotal moment in all of human history, right here, right in this little garden, 20 yards away from you, you're going to want to see this. I think they'd have been wired, right? But because you get the sense that, you know, they were just worn down. You know, these are men who traveled with the Savior extensively. Watch him do Miracles and and, you know, dealt with the throngs of people. And so you get the sense that maybe they were just worn down. And I think we're all in that stage, but I don't think we can use as an excuse to go to sleep. You, well, yeah, and it's interesting thinking about sleep, how intoxicating it can be. Sometimes like, I mean I've got little kids and, you know, I wake up in the middle of the night and it can be so hard to pull yourself out of that.

31:59 Drowsiness sometimes it's kind of be like the house is on fire or kids screaming bloody murder. Otherwise leave me be I'm tired, you know. Right. Right? Yeah. And the other thing is, is that if we're not awake, we can't bear testimony of what happened, right? Think about the, the kind of testimony, they could have boar had. They saw it. Had they saw him sweat blood right? What kind of words would they have used if we're not awake? If we're not engaged? It's pretty hard to testify to others because when we tend to disengage today, we don't want to talk to anybody else. At least?

32:47 I don't again, I want to turn on football and eat Doritos. That's my, that's my go-to. Method of operation but if we're awake we're engaged. We can bear testimony of the Savior. So I found that very interesting as well. Now that's a great analogy, I like that. And then the Savior says something in the garden that I know we all talk about a little bit, but I really want to talk about this for a second. And that is I think at this point, Point things are getting real and and the Savior can feel the weight beginning to press on him. And he said, let this cup pass.

33:30 Please father, let this cup pass. But your will be done. In that moment the Savior surrenders his Ultimate Will to his father knowing full. Well was about to transpire. God will intercede in a many, many things. But the one thing, he'll never touch is our agency that's for us to choose with, and if he violates that, I think it's one of those Eternal laws, he ceased to be God. How do we get to a point to where we can offer, our will up to the father? in a similar fashion as the Savior did, Because I think that's really the only thing we can give him right?

34:18 Well, yeah, that's the, you know, the king, Benjamin address their, you have people that are taught about their coming savior or not. I came King the no yeah King Benjamin in mosiah where he teaches the people that they need a savior. You know he explains even me I'm your king and you know I'm just I'm the dust I'm less than the dust of the Earth. The dust at least obeys God. I mean us, I mean us, Mortals, we don't even do that. So, That testimony that he Bears to the people about their coming savior, causes a transformation in them where they're basically is exactly what it is. They are at that point where they were are willing and desirous to put their hearts but their agency put their will on that Altar and and give it all to God and Mark that with a covenant.

35:13 And you know I think that's really a beautiful Barton Book of Mormon and a beautiful example. But you know in our own lives I don't know II. There's been times when I have been In. Well, there's been times where I've been in the depths of Despair and in a kind of a anti reverse atonement aspect. It's like in that despair, anything, I'll do anything. Lord, I Surrender, my agency also enter, my will deliver me please, because I can't endure this. I can't bear this. That's probably for me, been some of the, the most transformational experiences has been. When I, when I was in some of my darkest places and that's not necessarily even necessarily consequence of sin. Well, I mean, probably ultimately, all of that is but sometimes we experience, horrible devastating effects in our life because of something.

36:10 Other people do to us, or even sometimes, even just natural things happen. And, you know, there's no Mal Intent, no clear, right? I'm a reason things happen. I lost a loved one last summer, my family and things happen. Sometimes that put us in these places where we get opportunities to really decide. What are we going to do? Are we going to just go to sleep? Are we going to just turn to something else and just try to numb our pain? Or are we going to go to God? And in those moments, I think that's when we really clearly here that still Small Voice say That what the words asking, if he's asking, for a sacrifice of our, of our hearts, he wants our hearts. Yeah.

36:56 And and that's, and that can be the toughest thing to surrender, right? And I remember, I remember my first real time when I had to surrender, right? Which was so, so let me go back because there's actually a story of how I got to the This this place and it's not my fight against still to this day. When my old man passed away, I was getting, I was a freshman in high school, and I was getting ready to wrestle for four qualifiers for state, and my dad had passed away that Tuesday. And I was supposed to wrestle Friday night, and my coach came to me, He came to the house.

37:47 He said, look, here's the deal. I was able to get a variance so we will set up a special tournament at a neutral site or a special match a neutral site. So you can wrestle at a different time. And I sat there and I thought about for a minute and I went no no. I want to do this right now. You know, I want to do it at its normal time, I want to get this done. And I was going up against a guy who had really just kicked my rear all over the mat three times before during the season. And so we get we get to the point where the match happens and I remember it was the strangest thought and I'm not sure where it came from, but I remember I stepped on the mat and I thought I've heard all week long and I'm not going to hurt today. I can control everything inside of this circle. If I Really want to and I did.

38:49 But what that did Justin is even though I won that match and it gave me a little bit of reprieve a little reprieve, excuse me from my pain. It it it for it. Kind of put this idea in my head that no matter what the situation is, I'll just I'll just force it to my will. I'll just bend it to my will? I will just force it to go my way. And in some ways that served me very well. But in other ways, it didn't because there's some things that we can't do we are mortal.

39:30 We cannot affect certain things and when we get in that stage, it's a form of Pride. Right now, I recognize that in myself now is that, that was a very prideful attitude to take and so, we get to a point to where I think all of us who are trying to be Disciples of Christ, we've got to get to that point to where we're willing to just be like, you know, I've tried it my way, this is not working. I remember my, I remember mine is clear as day looking in the mirror. And realizing, oh, I'm horrible. I got, I've done horrible things to good people and in this effort to bend everything to my will.

40:21 And as soon as I was willing to look up into the heavens and tell God, okay, I've screwed this all up. This is all on me. I've done all this. Help me now, I'll do whatever it is. You want me to do, you have my undivided attention? I will do whatever it is, and I think we got to get to that point. But the question is, is how do we get there? And then, how can we stay there? It's one thing to talk about offering up your will, it's another thing to do it. Well, I think that's why the Lord directs our lives to be honest. I think I am a firm believer that nothing in life is an accident. Nothing is nothing is by chance.

41:03 All of this is a very, very carefully. Orchestrated plan to present us with exactly what we need and no more. should be able to truly find out who we are and find out whether we're going to turn to Christ or what, you know, when I got back from my mission and I was just on fire and I was Like, all right, I've done my mission. Next Step get married. Start a family. And so, I went about to do that and time passes. And I go about to do it some more and time passes. And and I just have failed relationship after failed relationship.

41:49 And I was actually in my 30s. And at this point I have I had like seen at all. I have been through just about any kind of problematic. Interpersonal, relationship, love tight situation. You could possibly imagine I have made every mistake in the book and I was with, I was traveling with my brother-in-law. We stopped at some some of his in-laws to stop for conference. And I'm in my, I'm in my 30s now and he has a, he has this this Aunt, who does this face reading stuff?

42:29 Kind of a kind of a Parlor trick, but but you know, she'll look at your nose, your ears, and your eyes, and she'll like Divine, your personality and character stuff like that. And you know, I was just there Chillin, havin fun and I was like, oh sure, why not? You know, get my get my tarot card reading. So she's she's looking at me. I can remember something, like, something about my ears or imbalanced and that means I'm not a very generous person I thought, huh? I don't know. Maybe that's true. I'd it doesn't I don't feel that way, but then she really latched onto something and, you know, at the time part of me thinking, well, duh, if I'm, if I'm a devout Mormon, I'm, I'm 31 or 32.

43:17 I'm not married yet. Obviously, you know, there's there's trouble there but she looked at me, she's like, You are afraid of having a series of serious relationships and so you sabotage every relationship you're in and that really stung it really, really stung and it really troubled me and I remember I went to bed that night just in kind of turmoil about this. And this turmoil brought came to a head that next morning and I just, I got up. I wandered off into the end of the day. Desert. And Found this River and I just knelt down and I and I was at my limit I'm like, what is going on and what I don't care what it is, I just want to be fixed, I want to be able to have a family.

44:11 I want a wife who I can love and who loves me? I want children that I can do my best to raise. These are experiences that are really really important to me and I haven't been able to find. I haven't mailed to do this, I don't know why, I don't know why. Maybe maybe she's right. Right, maybe I am sabotage. So I just in, in probably the most absolute state of humility in my life. I knelt down. And I asked, God, what is wrong with me? And whatever it is, I will fix it. I will do whatever it takes. Just I, I Surrender myself to thee. If it's I self-sabotage, then I'll accept that. Just show me how to overcome it.

44:51 If it's something else, show me what it is. And but I need, I need help. I can't do this. I can't do this alone. And, you know, I had a very, very powerful sacred experience with the Lord and I received my ending of what I needed. I was willing to surrender anything, you know, even even these dreams in these ideas of having a family, if need be, if that wasn't my lot in life. If the Lord said, hey, it hasn't happened because I need you to be some kind of a celibate monk, okay, if that's what if that's my plan. If that's your plan for me in this life, I'll take it. But I need some resolution here, right? And I got I got some resolution and I mean, it was literally, No more than two months after that experience. I think two months, maybe three months and I was married. But it didn't really happen until I finally complete and complete abject utter humility and absolute nakedness prostrated myself before God.

45:52 And just said, help me, please help me. I need help. I can't, I can't do this. I can't do this on my own. you know, I think I think God loves broken people a lot because I think they're people, he can work with I think when everything is going good, we have a tendency to get real fat and happy, right? We we get real complacent real quickly and in a state of Brokenness, we can tend to, We tend to go seeking for answers and we tend to go looking for God in those moments and oftentimes that's where he that's that's when we were finally ready to meet him on his terms, right?

46:48 As when we've become broken, he even Joseph Smith, right? I mean, this is a young man who has tormented in his soul about his brother Alvin about which church he should join about. You know, what's going to happen to his family? This is a kid who's, who's feeling this weight and somewhat, I would say probably a little broken in some ways and as he kneels down, I mean that's the beginning of it. I also find it interesting that it seems to be the darkest moments. That light really bursts forth. I mean and we'll cover the savior's experience on this here in a second. But Let's talk about Joseph Smith for a moment. Joseph Smith's darkest time.

47:36 One of his darkest times. Is just moments. Proceeding the bursting forth of heavenly light. And having a theophany that would change certainly christened him forever if not the entire religious world. So our darkest moments can Can become our. Salvation in some way, right? Are that that a powerful time of change? I'll absolutely the prophets of old Abraham, the dries moment of his life as he's heading up the mountain with Isaac. Yeah.

48:20 And And I firmly believe that it was from that experience that he received all of those blessings and Covenants from the Lord. He was because he went through that that he received that Moses in the book of Moses. You know, where we know that he, he sees God and then the Devil Comes. And in that struggle afterwards, Lord returns to him again, and he has his Grand Vision and sees the end from the beginning and just that whole amazing thing. I mean, there's just so many accounts of a Darkness, kind of proceeding a light Jonah and the whale even right? Yeah, he's running away from God, he's he's knocking. He's, he's gonna do his own will. And, and then, you know, he spends some time on those stormy seas.

49:11 He's and and then in the, in the great fish, and after that, he's he's ready to surrender, his will to God and see what God has to do. And that was a hard thing for Jonah to do as well as she needs to be understood that the never nights were were terrible terrible. Commit horrible. Atrocities on the Israelite people. Yeah. So it was not an easy thing to go. Preach repentance to your greatest enemy that would be like, you know, imagine getting called to go preach repentance. Thence to, you know, the White House. Yeah. You'd be like, no, I don't. I don't want those guys to repent. How are those guys go to hell? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I remember So this was before I was a father, like, right?

49:59 Before hours before. This is when we were still in the LDS church. And me and my wife got married, civilly. First, because you were just in love and wanted to get married, so we had to do the obligatory now. You got to wait a year kind of thing. To go through the temple. So I'm like, this is cool. We'll go ahead and we'll spend time. This will be good for us, you know, we can spend time grounding ourselves to the gospel and grounding ourselves to the Lord, and we'll work the plan, right? So we make sure. I mean, we're Johnny on the spot when it comes to our tithing, we are johnny-on-the-spot with our church attendance.

50:41 We are johnny-on-the-spot with our scripture study and prayers at home and our Temple prep class and about two weeks. Weeks before we are scheduled to go through the temple, which my wife by now is really pregnant. She's about, she's about six and a half months along and we're like, okay we're getting close and then something happens, her grandfather dies and we find out when the funeral is and we're like no big deal. We can get up there and back in time to do the session will have you know, three days to spare So, we go up to Washington state from Idaho. We go to the funeral and her mom says, hey, can you postpone your endowment and your ceiling just a couple of days because I got to clean up some stuff here from my dad, right? I gotta, I gotta go through his papers and we got to get all the insurance stuff, all situated, and I was bummed, but I understood I'm like, yep.

51:42 Yep. You know, whatever. So we go back home, we reschedule and then literally the day before we're supposed to go through the Temple. My wife starts going into premature labor. And so she Wheels, you know, they wheel her into the emergency room, they stopped the, they stop the contractions, but the doctor comes in. He says, look, she needs to be flat on her back and I could tell by the old Celestial smile under his white shirt that he was a Mormon and I said, look, Here's the deal. We are literally a day or so away from going through the temple. And I remember he looked down and he just kind of kicked the floor a little bit. He said, look, you've never been through but trust me, there's a lot of standing up and sitting down and if she got because this was before some of the changes had taken place. And he says, if you go through there, I promise you, you're not going to get through the session. She will be right back here and we will be Wheeling her out of the temple.

52:46 So you're going to have to wait till after the baby's born and I was devastated devastated, right? Because I so wanted my child to be born under the Covenant. Oh yeah. And then But I'm like, it's okay, it's alright, we're going to stay patient. Wearing continue to work this plan and then as soon as everybody's healthy and strong enough after after the baby comes, we'll go through the temple. Amber goes into labor and she has the baby and everything seems fine, right? Everything seems fine.

53:26 Her mom goes in to see Amber and I said, hey why your mom's here? I'm going to go check out our son and so I go in and I start checking on him and All of a sudden these these monitor start going off, big-time just beeping everywhere where my son's at, and the nurses rush in, and they kind of pushed me out of the way. Doctor comes in listens to him. He's like, he's got pneumonia. We don't have the facilities here in Caldwell, take care of it. We need to ship him to Boise. Okay, so I start, I start, you know, I'm here, I'm watching them work on my son, and I got this primal thing going on in my gut that I didn't know I had, right? When you become a parent, things change drastically. I'm and I'm all of 19 years old, by the way, right? I'm not, I'm not, I'm young and as I'm watching them, this nurse comes up and she's like, I need you back in your, in, your wife's room right now, she just passed out And I'm like, what in the hell is happening right now?

54:42 So I run into my wife's room and sure enough, they're picking her up off the floor. My mother-in-law is gone. I have no one else there, but my adrenaline is now going hard, right? Hard, and I start, I start really getting worked up and I call her mom back, we get ahold of her shoe. This was 96. Six. So she had a pager. So I was able to get a hold of her pager. If she turns around, she comes back. And I'm watching them work on my son. So so I be in the room, I'd make sure a okay and then I jump over and I look at my son and make sure he was okay, and I was just bouncing everywhere. And finally there like we got get your son to Boise. We're going to put him in an ambulance and get him there. And this is, this is late September. And I'm talking to my mother-in-law, my wife and the doctors looking at my wife.

55:40 He's like, she's just exhausted as all. And so, my wife says you go, you follow the ambulance. So I'm driving it. Excuse me. I'm driving, and it's just a crappy night. I mean the rain is coming down in sheets and I'm in the car and as soon as the door shuts I look up into the above me. I'm like you and me are going to have this out right now. Right now I have done everything. You've asked me to do, I have done everything. You wanted me to do. Why are you putting me in this position? I don't understand and I do this for the whole drive and it's about a half hour drive from Caldwell. The downtown Boise were the hospitalist. And I mean, I'm keeping up with the ambulance, I'm doing pretty good and they wheel them in and the nurses start working on him and they get him stabilized.

56:38 He's resting comfortably and I'm just there by myself, And there's a little chapel down in st. Luke's hospital that you can just go and sit and I'm like, yeah, we're going to have some more talks because I have not gotten an answer yet. I have not gotten an answer yet. and I remember, I was I'm ashamed to admit this. I was very, very arrogant and how I question, God. What are you doing? What is the plan here? You're going to let my son die without without being sealed to me and I'm doing everything. You're asking me to do.

57:20 Why what have I done wrong? and in that moment, it wasn't an audible voice but it they were words that came in my mind with such force that just said be still and know that I am and I have your son. Like I have you right now. And I love him every much. As I love you, you're going to get through this but you have got to slow down so you can learn the lessons. You have been so wrapped up in the checklists that you haven't stopped to think about what they really meant and so much to my chagrin.

58:01 I realized he had the Lord was right again, I been checking boxes without letting it. Percolate into my heart now ultimately, I'm a fundamentalist. So in the long run, it probably didn't matter a whole bunch, but in that moment, it was, it was a crisis that needed resolved, right? Then. And in that moment, was another one of those, those pivot Points where I realized. Okay, I've got to surrender. My will here. Again, I have to, I have to I have to go deeper than checking boxes.

58:44 Yeah, that's beautiful. Well, I wouldn't say that it didn't mean anything either. I think it meant a lot. I mean, in all of our Lives the things that come into it or stepping stones and there you know these experiences happen to us for our growth but I mean like I would not be the person I am today. If I hadn't liked been a missionary for the LDS church that was fundamental and I'd say existential to the person that I am today and so I think those things do mean a lot and I think again that just shows God's mercy for us that he's willing to chastise us that he's willing to put us in those situations that cause us pain because we know another, one of the amazing Revolution.

59:30 Revelations from the restoration is that God cries. Yeah. God fills our sorrows and as as desperate of the situation that you were in and those experiences that you were in Not only father, but Christ, they understand they've been there, they know exactly what it was and they didn't want to and I'm sure they did not want to put you there. Just like I don't think they wanted to afflict job or right will be afflicted, the way that he was, but it was necessary for our growth. And that's the beauty of the plan. Is that is that God will chastise us when we get out of here. So, so certain degree, I don't know that we need to necessarily go out of our way to look Our for these things. Because our thankfully, we have a father who, when we, when we, when we fall asleep, he comes and he wakes us up. Yep.

1:00:24 Get better to be awake, obviously better to be awake, but he's patient with us and he gives us those opportunities to find out what it is in our hearts that would separate us from him and he'll give us exactly what we need to change that and all and the The funny thing is no matter what the situation is due, it's just as you described this, the solution is that surrender, is that surrendering of ourselves to God? And when we surrender ourselves to God, nothing can touch our peace now, and I think it's that surrendered surrendering that causes those dark times to suddenly become a light, right? It was in that moment when I was surrendering and crying out to God in a way, I had never cried out to him before. Right?

1:01:12 And I've often wondered what that conversation is going to be like if I'm so fortunate and I've done been the right things to meet the Lord. You know what that conversation is going to be like when I see him and he says, you remember that time when you were all freaked out when your son was being born, let's talk about that a little bit. But it's often that surrender that causes those. Those are home personal theophanies. Right? Where, where we encounter God? So I guess for anyone else listening, I don't, you know, I don't know what anyone else is going through. I know it's tough out there but if you're in one of those moments know that you could be moments away from the white bursting forth and chasing away the darkness, Absolutely, you know, in first John and verse 5 it says and the light shineth in darkness and the Darkness comprehended comprehended it not and I really actually love this verse but I have my own addendum. This is The Gospel According to Justin but the darkness comprehended it not.

1:02:19 But the last night, the other lights that were out there, that's where they can see it. That's where you could comprehend it. If it wasn't it, that light wasn't shy, You in the dark and that light was shining in some giant, you know, brilliant Stadium. It would be a lot harder to see. It would be a lot harder to discern. What it is you're looking at. But when you've got a light and it's surrounded by nothing, but Darkness, you see that light? There's nothing else to see it's pronounced, right? I had a good buddy who was raised in Washington state and then he ended up moving to, I want to say Phoenix. And he said, one of the things that amazed him was just how distinct his shadow looked, right? He lived up in the Pacific Northwest where there was very little sunlight, right?

1:03:10 So he wasn't used to that. Brilliant light and then this really dark shadow. And so he went back to that locks, it made a pretty big impression on him, right? This this idea of of as light gets more pronounced or as Darkness gets more pronounced. So does the like and I think it ties in perfectly with what you're saying there with. You know, it comprehended that not it, chases it away. Yeah, well it's also interesting to this whole thing kind of ties back to where we're at in the world right now on this grand scheme of things, it looks like more.

1:03:50 I mean it seems like everything is just kind of falling and Into Darkness. Yep. Every day. If you watch the news it just seems darker and darker and darker and it can get easy. Like you're talking about to just kind of want to fall asleep and ignore that because it's too hard to deal with. But it's really it's I think it's an opportunity. I think it's because Christ is coming back, Christ is going to return and we need any needs us to be prepared to. He needs us to be ready and we're not going to do that. We're not going to be there unless we go through that kind of refining. Fire. If we don't face that Darkness. Yeah, and use the atonement right. That's the other thing is in, get so often. I think we look at the atonement as something that happens to us by somebody else.

1:04:37 But I don't think that's it at all. I think we're supposed to engage in that. Somewhat right. Call upon that, make that a part of our daily walk. If you will with with Christ to borrow from the from some of the, the evangelicals is this idea of working out our own salvation before God which you know, it says in scripture and I think that that goes into yeah we have a part to play in this whole idea of atonement it doesn't become You know, effective until we we call upon God to Deliver Us from those things. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well the path of sanctification.

1:05:20 Yep. Yep. You know that kind of brings up. Another interesting thing to me about the atonement and this is very unique to Mormonism, but the atonement is for everybody. Yes, it really is for everybody. It's not just for Christians who profess his name. Right. And I've got it testimony that the atonement Works in other people's lives and works in non-christians. Life's it works in Buddhist. Absolutely yes life's and it is their lives would be different without it. And the other beautiful thing too is that through with a full understanding with restored, understanding the fullness of the Gospel.

1:06:01 We know that the atonement ultimately will That everybody will be redeemed right? Side of a few specific situations that that whether we, you know, we suffer the price of our sins or not might be up to us. But the consequences, the ultimate Eternal consequences, it's been paid. Yeah. And everybody gets to be a partaker of that and that that is beautiful to me because I mean I you probably understand this too since you didn't come from a Christian background originally but I I know a lot of good people that aren't Mormons, even some that aren't even Christians and to me that just the idea that that they're going to die and they're just going to go to hell forever because they picked the wrong team or they picked the wrong church or something like that is abhorrent absolutely abhorrent. I mean my just brotherly love for for these for these men and women makes me Revolt at the idea that they're just going to be consigned to eternal.

1:07:08 This meant that they're not going to let the atonement doesn't count for them because they didn't they didn't claim his name at least in this life. Dude, that question right there is the thing that led me to Mormonism, ultimately, right? When my dad passed and I remember there was a religious leader. I won't say from what church or anything else. I just asked him. What? What happened to my dad, right? My dad was a good guy, but He wasn't a religious guy either, he was spiritual but he wasn't religious. I asked him, what? What happens to my dad and he said, well, if he didn't call upon the name of Jesus Christ, before he died, he's kind of lost.

1:07:52 I'm like, well, what the hell does that? I mean, this is hours after my dad had passed, I'm like, what the hell does that mean? And he's I'm like, dude, no, I doesn't sit right. That's what started me down. This path was to answer that question, right? What happened my old man? Because he was a good guy. He did a lot of good in the world. I mean, if that's your idea of a just and loving God, I don't want that God because that God isn't power 0, powerful enough to save, right? So this idea of an infinite and eternal atonement is something that is very unique to Mormonism and something that I don't think we should take take lightly.

1:08:35 Yeah, it's easy to take that rented when you're when you are raised in the church. Yeah things are just hot but you know it's funny that you say that because I mean you already mentioned it but I think that was actually one of the driving forces if not the driving force behind Joseph Smith motivation, that day in the sacred Road. You know, is what about what about what happened to his brother? Alvin, what's the state of the Soul? You've got these different churches. You got some that say that it's all your predestined to this, or that you've got. And I think he was concerned. Right, legitimate, absolute sincere concern and having a need to know. Well, what is true because Because I've got a brother on the other side and I need to know, right? Right.

1:09:19 Let's talk about, I think one of the other things that are that is unique to Mormonism. Is this idea that While the cross was certainly an important and integral part that had to happen. The bulk of the atonement happens in the garden, right? And that's uniquely Mormon. That is uniquely. It's not something you hear a lot in Evangelical churches or Catholic churches or anything else. This is something that's unique to the restoration and it's this idea of of, you know, Christ took upon him your sins and I want will dive in a little deeper to what all the atonement entails.

1:10:09 But it was somewhat earth-shattering to me this idea that everything I did wrong the Savior paid for Right. That to me was mind-blowing and earth-shattering at some level is that there's this guy who came and he lived a sinless life and his reward for that was since my life has been perfect. Now, I'm going to take on everyone else's sin, and pay the price for that. Yeah.

1:10:49 It's, it's profound and I think you're right. I think to me when I think of the atonement, I don't think of the Cross, although I actually don't really have an issue with the symbolism of the Cross. No, I don't either. I think there's two me a. It's very, I mean, I think it's a wonderful symbol as a Christian because Christ told us to take up our crosses and follow him, right. And that's what a when I see a cross. That's what I think. I think of that charge from Christ himself to take up Mike. Across as well and to follow him. But when I think the atonement, it's the garden. It's not about. Yeah, he was physically tortured. He was brutalized. His death was horrific.

1:11:30 That was no mistake. That was a bad deal. But that was, I think that was nothing compared to the more spiritual experience of the atonement that he had to endure in the garden. I remember once. I had went backpacking up in the Tetons on the border of Idaho and Wyoming. And I woke up early, one night, one morning and everyone else was asleep. So I thought, yeah, I'm just going to get the fire going and I'll just sit here and read my scriptures. So, I got my little head lamp on and I'm reading and I'm reading this account, right? I'm reading the account of the savior in the garden and then his subsequent execution on the cross, and it was the weirdest thought I'd ever had.

1:12:23 But as I'm reading it, and I'm reading about him bleeding from every pore because of the weight that he feels, That the thought came to my mind. Wow. By then probably the physical torture was almost a relief in some ways. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well you know and that's that's actually kind of an interesting thing. I've been looking at some of the scriptures and Doctrine covenants and stuff. And I've heard this theory that, I mean this is just a theory but to me it kind of there seems to be something to this that the there's something about blood. There's something very special about blood. You look at the the Jewish, their ceremonies about the blood and Same blood on things in the symbolism behind that you look at.

1:13:20 And then you look at the restored, understanding of the atonement that it wasn't just sweating like blood. But no, he was bleeding from every pore. He was purging that blood out of him and then we also have this account that a resurrected beings don't have blood. Yeah, they're quick and with spirit and I just it makes me think that he was actually undergoing a transformation there as well. A physiological. Information, while he was doing that, right? And then the one of the evidences to that is when they when the, when the soldiers pierced his side with this beer and water came out not blood right, right? It's it's kind of a I think there's some interesting symbolism there and then also just that you know it's true Christ blood that we are washed clean, there were washed in his blood and there's some beautiful symbolism I think Find that.

1:14:15 Yeah yeah. I the other part of the atonement that I don't think we focus enough on is Don't get me wrong. It is a tremendous gift that we have that we have this ability to be forgiven, but I think sometimes maybe the bigger thing that we miss with the atonement is that he felt all of our pain. Right? And that makes him uniquely qualified to be able to give us rest in relief because he took it all.

1:14:57 He knows all the pain I ever endured that story. I shared just a few minutes ago about my son, he knew that pain in a personal way. And because of that, he is uniquely qualified. To be able to give comfort in our times of desperation, and sorrow, and woe, and all those things. Yeah. I mean the scriptures talk about he takes and he takes it upon himself our infirmities and that's that's that's a little bit different from our sins. That's a little bit different. You know, I've been saying Spanish little bit and foremost, you got this, you got this, this word, it deals with like our physical or physiological, shortcomings as well.

1:15:47 Sicknesses, the pains, the things that we experience in these mortal bodies, but as far as Things sometimes we miss on the atonement to me. One of the that really stands out that I am probably. I'd be lying. If I said I was most grateful for because I think I'm probably most grateful that I'm forgiven, but a very close second is that there's restitution in the atonement because You know, some of the things that I've done in my life have caused other people harm and cause other people pain. And I think that understanding that not only is he paying the price, he is going to make restitution, he has the power to make restitution as well. And I find great joy and hope in that as well. That not only does he has he paid his, he suffered, so to speak for my sins but He has power to undo to make restitution for the suffering that my sins caused other people.

1:16:56 Yeah, yeah. And that's just it. He and that's the amazing thing about it, right? Is that Not only did he bear the weight of our sins but he bared the weight of how those sins made everybody else feel. And when you start diving into this, you realize, oh, there's not much I can do to pay this back, right? And so sometimes we get in this attitude of, well, I'll just keep the Commandments to kind of pay things back and I talked about that earlier, right? And it's like, good luck, good luck. Let me know when you get a tenth of the way there because you're probably translated at that point. Because there's no paying that back. Let me, let me challenge you a little bit on this, not that I disagree, but okay.

1:17:43 Um, So in Doctrine and Covenants section, I think it's 1138. We have Joseph F Smith speaking, mmm. And he says that. Speaking of those who are dead that the Dead who repent will be redeemed through obedience to the ordinance of the house of God. Okay, makes sense. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgression in are washed clean. Shall receive a reward according to Works for, they are heirs to Salvation and that's kind of what I'm saying. Like, everybody is saved and right woman theology, but it says, after they've paid the penalty of their transgressions, And you know, for a while, I'll I kind of looked at that and thought, well, it kind of sounds like they're gonna, they're gonna pay for the wrong since then.

1:18:36 And that is a concept that, you know, those spirits and spirit prison, you know, they're not going to be released until they've until they won. How does it go and you pay the most Farthing or something, you know? Right. Basically. But the implication is eventually they will have gone through that process and then be you know, declared fit for a T-Rex troll Kingdom. But I was under the I was under the impression that that was only for people who rejected Christ's atonement. Yeah, you accepted the atonement that you could pass that by. Oh absolutely.

1:19:21 Yeah but I also think that it's I don't think that's correct. Either though, the reason why is because it says those who have paid the penalty of their transgression and are washed clean And that being washed clean implies something beyond beyond ourselves, right? And so what I think is we can't really atone for our own sins. What we can do is we can suffer for our own sins. Yeah, but just because we've suffered for our sins that doesn't actually rectify anything. No. Because the balance the scales, whoever whoever is injured, Whoever has been harmed by our actions that that has not been undone. We might mean, might have an eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind so to speak.

1:20:09 Write a law of Moses approach to sin and atonement doesn't really work in the long run and that works okay for a legal for a legal justice system maybe, but that doesn't work for for a spiritual atonement. Yeah, that doesn't work for a spiritual atonement and I that just leaves Everybody suffering right, buddy. Damned so, I think even even for those sin. Those are those Sinners, those of us. Sinners. Right. Don't accept Christ and pay for their own transgressions. That's still really not in a moment. They're just paying the consequences and it still requires the atonement for them to be washed clean and to be, you know, to be fit to inherit their Glory well and I think it's important to also, Lives that just because we may be forgiven.

1:21:02 Doesn't necessarily mean that we're relinquished from all consequences either, right. I have absolutely, I've had to play pay a couple, you know, there. There's a couple of times I can't believe I'm at this on there. I remember once there was a girl that I had a relationship with that. I ended it pretty horrific lie and this is when I first discovered, I was a dirtbag and I ran into her at the store one day and I thought where you going to do What are you going to do? How sorry are you and I just took a few minutes to apologize and that was the most humiliating moment. I think I can remember up to that point in my young life was to have to admit.

1:21:55 I was wrong and I hurt you. And I there's nothing I can do to help you, you know, with with the hurt that I caused but I just want you to know. I'm sorry, I still had to Bear the weight of that in some degree. I end I think I think that that just because we we know we can be forgiven. That doesn't necessarily mean we're completely off the hook right? We still have to contend with that and do what we can to make things right. Or smells absolutely reminds me of King David and Psalms right for that will not leave my soul in hell right? Yeah he had made mistakes, he was there were consequences that David realized he gave up trying to avoid. He knew these things Were going to have to be dealt with. He found his peace in knowing that it just wouldn't be Eternal.

1:22:45 That there would be an eventual Redemption even for him for what he had caused. And I think we all can kind of take a certain comfort and in that, when we consider the things that I've been there, like I said, I've the relationships that I went through. Yeah, I learned that lesson. Yeah. Not listen to and it sucks. It really sucks. That's what I mean about to that that I find joy in the Not just that I get to be forgiven to, but that even though it's not within my power, it within the Lord's power to make that up to her, you know? Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Okay. So, we've talked a little bit about the garden part of this. Now, I don't want to get into the Gory details if you want. If people want that, I would recommend passion for the Christ or Passion of the Christ and go watch that movie and get a real good idea of how horrific the the The, the torture was that that our savior had to endure, their there is some rich symbolism in that suffering, that is, you know, hearkens back to the types and shadows that were practiced in the Old Testament.

1:23:56 But I want to focus now a little bit on the resurrection because this is the moment at which it becomes plainly evident that something has shifted in the heavens as well as in the Earth, right? Mary goes to the tomb. And it's empty. It's gone. He's gone and I find it especially for this time period. Now, there's some serious implications here with who he appears to First. If you were going to go based off of a hierarchy within a church structure, you would say, well, you probably go to Peter first, he's the chief Apostle.

1:24:53 But he didn't, he first appears to marry. Now there's a lot of Significance to that, right? One is you got to ask. The question was, was she his wife? I tend to believe she was But more than that Justin this now. Will separate Christianity in large portion portion and I'm going to come back and here in a second and tell you why. I think Joseph Smith Smith did something similar. This sets Christianity apart in the sense that he appeared to a woman first, right?

1:25:40 This is a time when women are viewed as chattel and now he's like coming to her first to Proclaim his resurrection. That's revolutionary. Yeah. It is to me. It's not that surprising though. I think it's absolutely clear that because I mean I mean if I think who would I you know, if I were to die and then and I could come back. Who would I want to see first? Do I want to write see my Bishop? I could see if I want to go see that the elders Quorum president or do I want to go maybe see my wife, right? Especially if I knew that she was in pain and suffering.

1:26:24 Because of feelings of loss, right? Right. And even for those who, don't believe that he was married. It's revolutionary, right? Because again up to this time, women are second-class citizens. They don't have the same rights that men do and Jesus totally upends that whole thing in that one moment. Well and I'd say it's even more than he appeared to her first. Because he I mean yeah he appeared to her first, but he also says what? At don't touch me. I have not yet ascended to my father. A father, right? And yet later on when he when he with the next, when he next does visit the church, he's asking them to feel his feel his palms, right?

1:27:13 Filicide. Feel his wounds come touch me. So he actually he didn't want to marry before he went to Father. Yeah, I think that's pretty pretty amazing. Oh that's a great Point. That's that's a fantastic point. I hadn't thought about that but yeah, you're 100% right now. I want to fast forward and do a comparison here. I shouldn't say comparison but maybe an addendum. I think Joseph Smith had just as much an effect on certainly Mormonism, obviously. But Christianity is a whole and I think had we stuck to our guns as Mormons especially within the the mother Church Joseph Smith comes out and goes, no, no, God hurts. Not Just For Men, God hoods for the Sisters as well. That's revolutionary, right?

1:28:08 So I find it interesting that you have both Jesus and Joseph. That in some ways. Tip the religions of their day kind of on their head. Right. That they absolutely change the paradigm. Yeah, well, I mean, the temple, the potential, the blessings that we are promised we can attain to in the temple of kings and queens, priests and priestesses, right? It's even even I think priesthood is something that ultimately in the eternities is a, is a man and woman together.

1:28:53 It's not just. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No. And, and Joseph very clear about that Brethren you're not going to Get to where you want to be without your without your wives. I know that right now that that has to be, you know, and I think this might be a good time to that. I've said this before and I really believe it. I think, I think modern Christendom has painted Christ in really pastel colors. Right. Very soft. Very gentle. What you was. I'm not saying he wasn't, but let's not forget for a moment that He was pissing everybody off. He was pissing off the religious structure, his time, he was pissing off the the Civil authority of his time. This was a man who in some ways Was. Was into challenging the status quo and did so oh absolutely not washing their hands before eating even right right. I mean he these guys were radicals. Yep.

1:30:04 Yep absolutely. One of the things I've often thought wondered is what must it have been like to have been, some of his Apostles, just trying to make sense in your mind about what had happened. Christ talks about this coming forth of the kingdom and now all of a sudden, he's gone. You think he's died? What, what must they have felt inside of their rooms, where they were hiding, right? Let's not forget fear has to be a big motivation here. You just saw them. Off Your Leader. You're not immune to that. So they're hiding out in probably trying. There's probably grief and fear all mixed into one trying to make sense of it.

1:30:53 Well, I think it does go to show how the Lord works with us. You might think that, well, gee, those guys. Look, we're living their life with Christ. Surely Christ, explain to every thing to them and explicit detail. Well, apparently not, apparently. So, I mean, I kind of look at that to a degree and say, well, you know, I'm trying to understand stuff too, and, and I find some some comfort to know that, you know, the apostles, Even the apostles and Christ time could could needed to learn gradually light upon light precept upon precept, even though they were taught directly by Christ. And so that's how Christ dealt with them. I think that's Christ.

1:31:35 I think that's how Christ in God deals with us, that we just kind of learn things. Step, by step, he comes to us where we're at helps us along, but he just doesn't, he doesn't throw it all upon us, all at once, right? Which I think is, you know, I think that's for our benefit because it's so easy. To take up too much strength. You know, when we're given too much that Pride enters in you, look at the xenix analogy where you've got the vineyard in the, in the, in the, in the olive trees and, you know, they work on. But sometimes they just take up strength too much. It was, is always this balance of nourish them enough, but don't over nourish them or they kind of take up straighter, it becomes overly Hottie it becomes overly may be prideful. We can we're not made were not ready for the things that or there's truth that.

1:32:28 I mean something can be true, but it can also be a lie, right? I think, I think we might have talked about stuff like this before. Yeah, somebody can be saying something that's technically completely accurate, but said in a time, and in a context to actually deceive and manipulate, right? And so even even Even a truth, can be a lie in the wrong context. And as as I think, you know, I my personal, you know, walk with Christ, I think, you know, it's just just enough just enough for what I need now, and hopefully not hopefully no more because that's there's wisdom in in dealing with us that way.

1:33:12 And I think that's how he dealt with the apostles. And they, you know, that was part of their process of learning and developing their own faith and getting there. Testimony and understanding. So I'm not too surprised to see that. They kind of missed it. They thought, I think they thought they were part of some sort of a political Rebellion to rush degree and they were just as surprised as the populace when when that wasn't the intention at that coming. Absolutely. All right. Before we switch gears now and move onto each tar. Let me, let me ask you this what does the atonement mean to you? I know that's a big ask.

1:33:58 Yeah, well man, it is a big ass because it's so big. There's just it means so much to me. To me, the atonement is probably. Everything. But the most important thing is it is my joy. I remember when I was in college, studying the scriptures and well, actually, I was studying philosophy, but it got me on this kind of idea on questions and looking at the meanings of words. And, and I remember at one point I thought I want to I'm gonna Joy, is the rather than taking the Philosopher's approach and just kind of reason it around in my head.

1:34:41 I thought I'm gonna, I'm gonna see what the scriptures have to say about it. And one of the things occurred to me will was, where does Joy Acker scripturally? What does it mean? They're what does it occur for the first time? Where is the first explanation of joy? And it's fascinating because when Adam and Eve are, are kicked out of the garden and are so to speak, cursed, you know, Eve is told that that she would was it late labor and sorrow or not labor, that she'd bear in sorrow. Thou shalt bring forth children. Yeah, in sorrow, Thou shalt bring forth children, Aaron and sorrow. Well, that's not Joy, that's kind of the opposite of Joy, but in the book of Moses, which has a much more Fuller detailed account of of Genesis, Adam and Eve have been obeying after they've been kicked out.

1:35:36 They've been obeying God, they've been doing what they were told. They said they don't know why but they're going to do it anyways and an angel comes to Adam and explains and says hey you know there's there's a savior prepared, there's a savior I prepared and there's going to be Redemption. And that is the first instance of the word Joy coming up. Historically is when they learned that there would be a savior. And I thought the reason why even more so than for themselves is for their children, right? That's that's what Joy is and so to me the atonement, it's not just a hope for myself, it's a hope for my children. And so from my posterity Yeah.

1:36:20 And that to me is Joy knowing that they've got a chance, they don't have to go through what I did. They don't have to suffer the things that that I did and they don't and just and and with me they don't have to be consigned to the to an eternal consequence of our failings and bad decisions. Absolutely for me lately, I'll just say lately because the more I dive into the atonement, the more I realize I'll never have it figured get out right. I'll have a rudimentary knowledge until until I get getting to you know hopefully get to a place to where where the Lord can instruct me further.

1:37:02 But lately I've noticed that the first five letters in the word, atonement spell at one and that idea of being at one With with God again, through, Christ's sacrifice, I think can't be overstated, right? It's the that that act that the Savior performed on our behalf The suffering in the garden, the scourgings at the hands of the Romans and his Ultimate Death. All is supposed to point us back to getting back to our dad, getting us back to our father and being at one with him.

1:37:47 And I think it this idea of Resurrection that was part of the atonement. This idea that that your Humanity can be holy that's that's big stuff and that stuff that that deserves certainly our gratitude to the Savior certainly more than gratitude maybe our adoration our worship of of of Christ that Took upon him, all manner of. Pain and sorrow, and yet bore it so that we could have a chance, right? I love what, what the Greeks, the Romans, and even the Vikings used to say about their gods, they used to call him Champions and I've often looked at Christ and thought I can't think of a better word than the champion of humanity. Right?

1:38:51 The, the, the The god that saved all. You know it's the infinite and eternal atonement goes without bounds. There's no bounce to it. It's forever. And so for me, the atonement, Is the Crux of this whole thing that we're doing here. Right of the restored gospel, is this idea that? Yeah, he came, he was real. He lived he still lives and through his sacrifice. We can ultimately not only be with our families forever, but be as God is one day and that's revolutionary and heavy stuff. Absolutely.

1:39:38 Alright, so now that we've set that table, I wanted to do that first because I feel like it's so important. Let's talk about the progression of Easter here, a little bit or the the progression of the, the celebration of the savior's atonement which we kind of touched on briefly before we did this part. Yeah. It's this is it kind of an interesting subject I think. And honestly, it's one personally that I'm I'm not particularly Convicted on either way, but it's kind of a debate.

1:40:23 And as it was, it's become a debate out there. Apparently, I didn't realize this because I mean, I first came upon the idea that, you know, most Christian holidays are kind of paganized, I don't know, maybe 20 years ago or so, you know, a long time ago. And so, To me, it wasn't it's sort of self evident. Right? When I mean when you look at the way that we celebrate these holidays, which are supposed to be holy days, right? They're not particularly holy know, and so clearly something seems a little bit off and, you know, having have a little bit of experience with some of the Jewish Traditions, you know, I mean I can see Holiness in that. Even though absolutely not be the fullness. There's there's something there but you know, you look at the way that we traditionally celebrate, things like Easter and Christmas, and it's just like, hmm. I don't know, seems pretty Hollow and empty at best. Yeah, it's when we start talking about, You know, Easter and and Christmas there.

1:41:40 And that's why I love having Joshua Erickson on the podcast because he keeps all those old Jewish holidays, which is are just rich in symbolism and I feel like we as Mormons can take a lot away from that because if this is the if this is the you know the restoration of all things certainly we have to look at some of those early holidays in those feasts and And ask ourselves are there. Different ways we can do this. Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, it's interesting. So, I served a mission in Korea and they've got this holiday, they call chuseok, and it's a traditional thing and it's, you know, the early Christians labeled it ancestor worship and, and forbade it. But even the Christian Krantz, most of them, still still do follow this tradition and it's not really a, I don't believe it's intended as a deification of their dead. I think it's a Respect and honor of their dead that he departed and they've got their own kind of Feasts and ceremonies around it, which I think are actually pretty beautiful and they do this around the time of Thanksgiving in the US but some of the lunar calendar.

1:42:59 So it kind of shifts around and I had an opportunity to participate with the Korean family. I was invited into their home and and was able to experience that with them and it was a beautiful experience. And I remember thinking, you know this, I think there's a lot of Out of value in Remembering our ancestors and those who came before us even if they're not God, there's a lot of value in remembering them and respecting their lives that allowed us our lives. And so, you know, I kind of took away with that they can, you know, I want to when I get back to the States, when I get a family of my own, I want to continue. I want to develop that tradition. I want to bring that kind of a tradition into my family. It might not be explicitly.

1:43:46 Christian, but it's it's kind of beautiful and it can bring a lot of awareness and connection to our ancestors who are a vital part. I mean, and if you look at the, the Malachi prophecy that, you know, that before the day of the Lord, that you turn the hearts of the children to the father's in the fathers and children all that stuff, that's at, that's a part of the restoration to is recognizing And loving and serving our ancestors and so so I thought that anyways so I mean to me I'm not I'm not a hardcore fundamentalist when it comes to holidays and where I'm, you know, some Christians are just like if it's not in the Bible it's of the devil and it should be forbidden. I don't think that's necessarily the case. As long as what's being practice is Lightning. And but honestly, I mean, sure, Christmas and Easter. I remember them being kind of fun times as a kid but they they weren't particularly in lightning. No, no.

1:44:58 And I think that's that's the challenge. We have is parents now, right? Is to somehow Maybe take those things back. Right, take take those things back. I will say Easter, I think present some unique challenges in the sense that even the name Easter. You know, is, is East are, right? And when you start studying, who Ishtar was, she's an abomination of a God, right? Hurr, Hurr, Hurr adherence would would go through. Well, I'm just going to call it like, I see it here.

1:45:39 This is going to get me another strike. Um, they would transition from male to female That was one of the ways they would do it as her priests or priestesses. Is this idea of changing from man to woman and woman to man, it was absolutely an Abomination the egg, right? That we all liked color is kids and whatnot. Those are you know that that has symbolism back to her fertility rites. And so some of this is Deeply interwoven and we have a real challenge, I think of trying to parse it out. And I never used to be this guy either. I was more the guy like you're reading too much into it and you know, you're, you're diving too deep and but the more I looked at it, the more I was like, whoo, whoo, this is not good. Oh, yeah, now I remember that.

1:46:37 Like, I remember growing up, you know, Disney movies, you know, lad and Little Mermaid. I do, whatever. It's fun game. So I kind of grew up with it. So, I got these this kind of I'll check attachment to it, but then I watch it as a parent. It's like, well, my kids watching this, this is, this is a story about, you know, this is kind of glorifying theft, this one's kind of glorifying, disobeying your parents and making deals with the devil instead and don't worry. It's got a happy ending because this, right? And suddenly, it's like, mmm man. I used to not be that guy but I'm starting to become that guy because yeah man once you kind of pull back the curtain on some of this stuff Tough. It's like it. Maybe it's harmless, maybe it's all fun and games but you kind of got to ask yourself.

1:47:25 How can you get it wrong? Pretty much every single time though, right? Why does every single kids movie that comes out, have to preach some kind of the anti parent anti Christian values anti, even just trick it anti traditional culture that I use. I mean, it's it can't just be a half. I mean, there's got to be an agenda. Here. And I think it's undeniable that it is, maybe it's slow, but over time, this is having an effect on culture. Absolutely is so, I mean, I don't know what your thoughts. What, how do you take that back even well. So, this is kind of interesting, because I remember reading quite a bit about Easter and it's Pagan Traditions.

1:48:10 Mmm, I'm a long time ago, and, you know, I knew we were going to come on and, and we're going to be talking about the atonement. But also, Also, maybe Eastern little bit. I thought I'd, you know, just, you know, freshen up on some of that. Yeah, absolutely. So. So you know, I do a Google search Easter is star and I can't find a single site on Google's top list that isn't saying that that's not true at all and it's been completely debunked. So I'm like hmm that's interesting. Well, maybe maybe maybe it has been debunked, I don't know. Maybe that's maybe that's not the case may be. It is a Christian tradition. I mean if it's true I'd be open to that but I start looking at these are all these articles and they're all like, you know, 2000 2021 2022 2023. And I start reading them and they're all saying that the exact date like huge chunks are quoted verbatim. And all of these things I'm just like, well, that's kind of interesting.

1:49:15 That's kind of interesting. I can't seem to find anything suggesting that Easter has anything to do with Pagan religion and I'm doing a Google search. I mean, I thought Google supposed to be like, you know, anti Christian values. What, what, what is Google's motivation and, and the media is motivation, And promoting, I mean, some of the stories are from, you know, these kind of mega churches that kind of bought into that whole, what was that campaign? They ran the Super Bowl Christ, he knows us, right? Said of, instead of instead of Christ, he's your savior, repent, it was no, he gets you, he gets you. Okay, no, no, okay, whatever, but it's those same kinds of churches that are there.

1:50:04 Promoting these messages and here, we've got big Tech. Who seems to be really pushing this idea. And so I kind of was looking through these articles. I mean, would you be interested in trying to challenge some of these points? Yeah, yeah. What see what we can come up with? I don't know what they are, but let's give it a crap. All right, so this was just a short one I found from a radio Radio guy. Where'd it go saying that Easter is not a pagan holiday, Christian radio talk show. Looks like a kale Clark Show. I'm not familiar with it, but I don't know it. So he basically starts off by saying that he quotes this scholar.

1:50:55 Well, first of all, he says, it's a meme, there's recently been a meme going around suggesting Eastern Ishtar connected and I don't know, maybe there is, I'm not on social media anymore, but this goes way back, this goes a lot further back then than a meme, you know, in the last year or two, but it's Art's out trying to set it in that kind of a context and then he quotes this saint Betty a Catholic in English and English Catholic monk who basically puts forth this claim that it is a it's called after the God, okay?

1:51:39 He basically makes the claim that Easter the month of the holiday that we call Easter was called after a goddess of these pagans named Yost, Ray. Whose honor Feast was celebrated in that month then and so this is a this is a quote from a Catholic monk and 725. A.d. making the case that Easter has pagan origins. But apparently and I think this would be worth going over because I keep finding these points everywhere when I look for this now. So that's why I was like, you know, I want to bring this up because if anybody's listening to this and they decided to do their own Google search on it, they're probably going to find this kind of an article because this is is just right everywhere. So this guy claims are several things worth noting about Saint beta is writing first, it's worth reiterating that this is the only piece of writing in human history, that mentions the goddess Pele stray.

1:52:36 I find that kind of interesting. However, have you ever read some of the church history stuff like Britain and journals from the actual Journal like the handwritten type Journal? Sure. Got these sure. Thanks. It was shocking to me out first how Challenging spelling, apparently it was yeah, not even that long. I mean today with computers autocorrect our current education system, it seems pretty straightforward, but I don't think spelling was nearly as straightforward in the past and especially when you're trying to describe the name of some God.

1:53:17 In some religion, who might be using an entirely different language than you're using, how do you end up coming up with that? So, I mean, he's saying that this goddess, yo, straight doesn't show up. Is it mention anywhere else? Well, what does he mean by the goddess EOS tray? Because there's also in the Pagan world, you often had God's being transplanted from culture to culture to culture and each culture. They, when culture would go to bat, you know, they go to Babylon. Oh, I like that, God. Well, we're going to take that God back to our People. But in our language, we're going to call that God and they'll come up with an entirely new name. Sometimes they're phonetically similar, sometimes they're not similar at all. And that was a pretty common practice. So just because you can't find a goddess by that specific spelling, don't think that necessarily means that this guy was up in the air.

1:54:08 I mean he had to come up with it somewhere. I mean, do you think this Catholic monk was just like, I'm going to make up a fake goddess and I mean everybody around Probably be like nobody's ever heard of that goddess, you're lying. What you? Just wrote there, that isn't true. Yeah, I mean he wouldn't do that. Right? Right. The and here's the other thing we know for a fact that the gods were shared across culture. It happened a lot between Rome and Egypt. Isis and Aphrodite, and then you can trace it back further. So I just read a fascinating book about this and I can't recommend it enough.

1:54:49 It's by a guy who was born Jewish and then became a Christian minister. And his name is Jonathan Cahn and he has a book called Return of the Gods and he died recommend it. He does a very good job of documenting how those those and In parentheses here for anyone not watching God's, how they, how they went from one Society to another right through trans through, you know, people visiting Egypt. And then they take it back to Rome. So if you look at like Isis in Egypt, well you saw that the Romans, Identified her as Aphrodite. Likewise the Babylonians Isis was Ishtar and so when this Catholic monk starts finding another name, you got to ask a question.

1:55:47 He's probably not familiar with with whatever the Babylonians were speaking, or with whatever the the native tongue was of the Egyptians, maybe he was really good with Latin, but we know Latin wouldn't come across the same way. So, I think there's enough there that you got to say. Okay, it looks to me like this was one of those cases where this God was carried in by her adherence to a different civilization. And that's how he was able to translate. Yeah, exactly. I that's that's what I come to to. I don't think that really proves anything just because you don't find that specific spelling of this God, right?

1:56:29 I mean he wasn't talking about Isis or is star And then his second point is really kind of the same. Actually he says, as Sorensen mention it's more likely that saying that a was mistaken about this adoption for several reasons. Yo, straight does not appear in any of the surrounding mythologies as she would. If she were a goddess, you can't make that judgment. Unless you know, the story of this goddess though, which this Catholic priest didn't share, I mean, without the story. How can you know whether that God has existed in knew that other surrounding cultures mythologies? They Don't keep the same names to these things. You wouldn't expect them to keep the same names even within a single Society to the names change over time.

1:57:11 Well let's just look at Christianity right? When Christianity starts out. The name of Jesus in Aramaic and Hebrew is Joshua right? And then the hellenized version of that becomes Jesus. And so you essentially have the same thing on Christianity side, right? Yeah, this this name that is carried over and is translated differently. Oh yeah, like in Korean, it's Yaesu. Yeah, how do they end up with the issue? Shouldn't? I mean the Koreans can make the sounds for Jesus for the most part are why wouldn't they go to Jesus?

1:57:54 Well, because the Bible was taken by Spanish missionaries into China, right? And then it went from China to Korea. And and so they pronounce the J is as the a, in its Yaesu. So, yeah, it that argument is that guy makes that are in that article holds no water none. Yeah. So those are his first two arguments and I agree. I think they're very, very weak that doesn't prove or disprove anything other than that pagan gods are diverse and interpretation and in name and in pronunciation and he Even Ishtar, you know, I think that we print out different. People have different finesses Asians of, of how they don't say that.

1:58:39 So, so here's where I get a little more interesting. Thirdly, if she was a local goddess, why would the Catholic Church adopt and christianize a springtime celebration of hers? Well, I think you have to look at the Catholic church has an extension of Rome, and we know for a fact, Rome did this a lot, right? Because when Rome was Empire Building, I'm not a fan of Empires II. Want to get that out of the way, but as far as being able to build a really sustainable Empire, Rome had it figured out, right? We're going to go in.

1:59:20 We're going to show overwhelming Force, so hopefully no one ever fires a shot. The right that's the other thing. It's lost in history, is that Rome conquers a lot of ground without ever tossing a spear or firing an arrow, right? Just the, the sight of these guys come in was enough to be like, so you just want us to pay taxes and we can keep our God's Good. We're fine. We'll go with that and so The the fact that that Rome was able to do that, when's itself to just that thing that you were talking about there. Yeah, well it was keep your Gods but also subvert them right?

2:00:04 You had this gymnasium culture stuff that they had right from the Greeks and they were actually pretty good at subverting the cultures that they conquered as well. I think that was part of the success of their empire was they realize we need if we conquer an Empire, we need things to be. I'm a modulus. Yeah, among these different conquered vassal States or they're going to knock it along and break off and there's going to be conflict and so they were really good at bringing all that kind of stuff together and they were very good at doing it in a politically correct way. Right. And so they you could keep your God but your God has to now mean what they want it to mean is kind of was the really the true approach that was going on there, right? And I think, It was in Christianity that they found this kind of a a perfect, a perfect weapon. Brother Empire Building, because for whatever reason, there are these fragments of truths and all these Pagan religions. And there's the Tricia's into these stories that all kind of, really kind of point back to Christ and stuff. I mean, did you know Egyptians you've got you know the with the story Isis and all that resurrections going on. There's these fragments of Truth in all of these things. And I think they recognize well in Christianity and The story of Christ, we can actually unify

2:01:35 all this stuff, even even better than we've ever done before, we can bring it all together, but in doing. So they also polluted the previous a lot of the primary meanings and messages. And they also had to make concessions because some of their people really like their parties. And so it was like fine. Keep your keep your party but convert to Christianity, right? Right. And Yeah, and I think that's an outgrowth of that Roman mentality, right? And so they're, they're able to to use their their subverted cultures. If you will use their their holidays, to reinforce their religion.

2:02:20 And at the same time, it it's a heck of a unifier, right? Well, I mean, that's actually Fascinate isn't there some interesting parallels to today, right? I mean, did I don't, we just have to do it. You just get a new holiday. I don't know if it was official or not, but this trans day of visibility. Yes, yes we did. Yes, you are correct. It's interesting how Empires use these things to, you know, kind of subvert culture. So yeah, so this argument, if it was a local goddess, why would the Catholic Church adopt and christianize that kind of a Pagan religion, or or celebration? Well, Because they don't want to cause a revolution. They don't want to rock the boat, they're trying to make everything, everything just kind of equally corrupt, right, right?

2:03:15 And like you said to because they did it with everything else along with Christianity. I mean over time, nothing happens. Then vacuum you have to look at where where you know Christendom got it. Got, it's funny. Start right with this Chrome from a Catholic. I don't think this guy's a Catholic. Maybe the sky is a cat, I don't know. It'd be funny if it was a Protestant making this argument on Catholic Church would do something like that. Right. But as essentially, Culturally Protestant at least as far as the Catholic Church goes. I don't find it that difficult to understand why that would happen.

2:04:02 So that was his that was his third argument. Now here's this fourth one. Making the jump from a goddess named illustrator who may or may not have actually been part of the Pagan religion to Ishtar The Babylon. Deity isn't logical. Whoo. Whoo. Whoo. Whoo, that's it. That's a strong argument there. I'm not, I'm not sure if I could counter that, although he's got a little more to say, let me keep going to be fair, you know stray, likely comes from yesterday, which means, meant Springtime or Dawn, and Old English East are. The Babylonian goddess is the goddess of many things, including fertility, and sex, and the supporters of the Ishtar Theory have conveniently chosen, those two devotions to match Springtime in life. So OK, that to me logically that he argued against this point, right?

2:04:56 And it really begs the question. It really, really begs the question if Easter and the way we celebrate Easter is Christian in any way or form. Then why does the symbology I'll point to Ishtar regardless of, whether you called Ishtar or yellow stray, or whatever, you've got, you know, these this focus on these eggs which you know that it makes sense from a fertility perspective. One of the counter arguments that I've seen also is that. Well, eggs and bunnies are not are not symbols of of Ishtar. Her thing was was lions and I'm like well but she was the goddess of fertility, right?

2:05:39 I mean I don't think it takes a genius to realize, there's kind of a symbolic connection between things like eggs and rabbits and the concept of fertility. If you can't, if you can't connect those dots, then I don't know what else to say they're pretty. And if you're going to argue that it is somehow Christian then. Okay, where does that go? Where is Christ described as the That we're we're, you know, in where is the sacrament of eggs, right? In the Bible, where does that come from? And also conveniently, they're speaking as far as each star goes that they can't connect it to eggs. Well, is this think as you pointed out that Ishtar has many names, including Isis including Aphrodite. Yep, Aphrodite.

2:06:38 I'm a pronounced that wrong but no, And one of them also is is this idea of Venus and the birth of Venus in an egg or a clam shell. So, you actually can tie all of the symbolism of what we celebrate in Easter to these pagan holidays. So, to me, it's kind of like, whether you call it. I mean, whether you can you know, from a scholarly perspective, find evidence of this chain of custody for these writings that go back to Ishtar directly or not, it doesn't really change the fact that the symbol the symbolisms have nothing.

2:07:23 To do with Christ in the atonement or the resurrection and everything to do with Pagan fertility Gods. Yeah, okay. I'm going to share a story. Now that I have never shared on the podcast, I've alluded to it a couple of times but I've never shared it. When I worked back East, I worked with a good friend whose name was Joel and Joel's dad was a rabbi. And immediately. I was like, whoo. Cuz I was just fascinated with with Judaism. I still am, right? It's hard to understand. Jesus, without understanding his background and Judaism is his background right up there. So, I had a very big drive and, and Joel's dad was super accommodating, right?

2:08:14 I was like, I want to see a satyr meal. He's like, well, come on over. I'll let you participate in and bring your wife and your kids and and absolutely and he was super accommodating. And I promise you, this is going someplace. I was reading and Lamentations and Jeremiah and I kept coming across but all of Molech all the time, right? And I'm like, okay the Lord's pointing me here, but I don't understand what he's trying to tell me. Well, it's Old Testament stuff. Let's go. Talk to Joel's dad. So I make an appointment to go see Joel's dad and I sit down.

2:08:54 I start talking with him. And I said, tell me what this means in lamentation is Jeremiah and he goes, no, I'm thinking, what, what the hell do you mean know, you've been so open with me so far, what do you mean? No, he's like, that's not for you Gentiles, he's like just trust. There's a real good reason. We don't do this. We're where we don't pass this along without a lot. Lot of Preparatory work. So, no. And I said well can I have the Preparatory work? And he said no. And so I left somewhat dejected in a little pissed off, right? And he, he calls me back a few days later and he said, I can't get our last conversation out of our mind, out of my mind. So I'm going to tell you.

2:09:46 And then what you do with it is on you from there. So come over at this time and it was a couple days later and I'll break this all down for you, essentially. So we go in and we go into a study and this is when I know things are getting serious because he only goes into a study, when he's about to talk about some big things, and he takes me into his study. And he says, first, let me tell you why we tend to be careful about who we pass this along to. because America made the same Covenant with the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Israel did and every time, But all our moloch shows up that Nation Falls. and he says I'm going to tell you what the ancient practices were and then tell you about how it's being practiced today and I said whoa slow down you're telling me today people are worshiping but all and Molech and he goes and Ishtar You can't forget about Ishtar and I'm like, okay, whoever this is.

2:11:04 So he starts telling me about how Israel fell into it during the times of Lamentations in Jeremiah interestingly enough. That's the same time. Lehi begins to be plucked out of Israel to to make his journey to the new world. He said, what happened was that? There was a drought in the land and rather than people stop and turn back to Jehovah and repent. They double down with these God's from Babylon and the Canaanites, and I was like, what you mean double down?

2:11:46 He said, well, what they would do is in a slight drought, right? They would turn a portion of their fields back ferrule as an offering. The next year because they didn't turn back to Jehovah. The drought got worse. So, they invoked Ishtar and Ishtar was all about fertility. Rites So, for anyone out there who's listening with little ears, I'm going to count down five seconds for you to either shut this off or get them out of the room, 5, 4, 3 2 1. It was beige.

2:12:34 Basically ritualistic orgies, the Only Rule was you couldn't be happier, engaging in sexual impropriety, with your husband, or wife. It had to be somebody else. and that was, Was the thrust of it. What happens when you have that kind of activity? You have unwanted pregnancies. and in a culture that values, highly Parentage and ancestors like Israel did Jenny illogical lines, right?

2:13:18 That was a big deal. Well, fast forward about a year later. And now it's a famine because you have turned part of your Fields Farrell, so you're not raising enough food to even get you through. You've fractured the family. Now, you have these unwanted pregnancies and who's there to take care of that moloch and for anyone, if anyone wants to go Google, this go Google. This, the picture of moloch is a bowl, God. And that bold look God. Has outstretched arms and a hole in his stomach. And they would feed Fire.

2:14:00 Into the build a fire inside this hollow idle and then they would put infants and toddlers in the arms and they'd roll in and burn to death. Now at this point, I want to throw up. I'm so disgusted by this but I still don't believe. What this Rabbi is saying that we're practicing this today. And he said we are totally practicing this today. And I'm like, how and he's like, what's the big push with environmentalism turn as much of it Back To Nature as possible? Let's go into the free love movement. If it feels good.

2:14:42 Do it. What does that work? What does that result in unwanted pregnancies? What does that result in abortions? He's like we're doing everything the same. It's just been repackage for modern consumption. The maybe maybe now you're not quote giving that ground back to the all but maybe you're giving it back to Gaia right, Mother Earth and hopes that she will be appeased and then we won't have droughts or fires or any of those other things. Right? I mean the climate called that it really. I mean yeah, that is exactly what they're saying is. Yeah this Net Zero or the Earth is going to be destroyed and we're all gone.

2:15:30 And yeah, definitely their primary message to is depopulation. Yes, yes, Saudi, population, feel if it feels good, do it. So now you have this whole free love kind of movement, right? And you have men not wanting to step up and take responsibility for what they did. You have extramarital? Affairs ends and unwanted pregnancies which leads to abortion and maybe those priests no longer wear Scarlet, robes, but white lab coats or scrubs. And so when he painted me that picture Justin, I was horrified and I went home and I don't classify them as dreams.

2:16:12 I've, I classify them as visions and that's another story will go into another time. But there is no doubt. In my mind that today, we are practicing idolatry. We may not call them by their old names, but make no mistake about it. This is the same worship that weakens a nation. That has made a covenant with God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And And it's been repackage for modern consumption. And I think when you talk about Easter Christmas and I love Christmas, I'm a Christmas kind of guy right now. We've turned it on its head in our home. We make it very, very, very christ-centered to the point that we've taken on a few of our own Traditions to make it more christ-centered.

2:17:03 But when in dealing with these things, if we're not careful, right? Because here's the thing, I don't think anybody on that side that's in the climate called or practicing abortion or the free love thing. I don't think any of them, maybe a few of them. There's a few, I might say, but I don't think many of them went in there going. Oh, I'm gonna go worship ball and then Ishtar and then moloch, I don't think that's how it works. So if they can fall in that trap, I don't think we should be too blind into arrogant, say that. We couldn't fall into that trap as well, and I think that's why this this needs some attention here, right? Is if you if we're going to celebrate this, Meaning the the resurrection in the atonement of our savior, we need to take it back and we need to be forceful about how we do it within the walls of our own home and make sure that we instill that into our children.

2:18:00 Well said, well said, I agree, wholeheartedly? You know, I grew up with these traditions and like I said, I've got fond memories of them, is as activities as special days, but personally, I think, I don't think it you're a bad person just because you are participating in the culture. I mean, that's, that's why, that's why they're subverting the culture. Yeah, but it might make you, you might be a little, but you might be ignorant of some things. And again, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're doing something wrong. But why, why settle for a pagan holiday when we have Christ's atonement and Resurrection to be celebrating, right? Right.

2:18:52 That's, that's exactly right. And here's the other thing, right? And This is from the book of Dave. I'm not saying that this is, This is Gospel at all, but if, if, if our father in Heaven, had certain angels that were captains of things right in think it Gabriel. You can think of Raphael, you can think of, you know, any of those other Angels. What makes you think that the the adversary wouldn't have his own? And I find it interesting that about the same time that Easter is around where one of the practices here we go. We're going to go for two strikes on one episode a week. In the celebration of a goddess whose priests would churn from men to women and women to men.

2:19:43 We now have just instituted the day of visibility for the trans community. Those gods are still at work, and we need to be very Vigilant to make sure that we, we are not participating. We don't have to be, we don't have to be overbearing about it. We just have to be deliberate. And when we decide to be deliberate, there's a lot of things we can take and reincorporate, and I'm all for using, look, the children of Israel. They used. Old. That was out of Egypt to create the Ark of the Covenant, as well as the golden calf. So we can take those things and repurpose them. And make them in consecrate them and make them Gods. But that means that we as parents have to be deliberate and doing it.

2:20:46 Amen. I couldn't agree more and, you know, I mean, even in my own family II do have some positive memories around about Christmas and it kind of Christmas feel and that cultures there. It doesn't seem to be actually, it doesn't seem to be there anymore. I don't know what. I don't know what's happened to Christmas these days. It's not like it was when I was a kid, I used to be so much more commercialized, but I do still have these positive memories of the Christmas season and I remember, a couple years ago, I kind of decided that, you know, I don't want to take that away, but I also don't want Santa Claus and this kind of stuff to be the Focus, right, right.

2:21:30 So what I ended up doing is I and I felt like this was. All right. Well first of all, I do personally I don't like telling my kids that, you know, this is that there's some imaginary, you know, guy running around with presents and stuff. So, I mean, I just I'm up front, right? Kind of thing, myself. And that's how we do things in my family, but we still celebrated Christmas in a more traditional cultural kind of way. And it's kind of hard men to try to take that away from the kids when that's kind of becomes an expectation, right? And so what I ended up doing was right out right after Christmas, you've got three kings day. Yeah, and that's more of a Catholic tradition and that's not something that I'd ever celebrated and I thought, wow, well you've got Not fertile, ground here.

2:22:18 It's a great concept and I can make anything I want out of this because well because I'm not Catholic and there's no no there's no expectation and my family built around it. So we ended up doing this really, really cool countdown from Christmas to the to the Three Kings Day to Ascension and it was actually really powerful. We just took Every single day. We had some special little thing that evening like a mini family home evening talking about Christ, Leah up to that. And, and, and, you know, it's kind of funny because in the restoration, you know, we know that Christ wasn't born on Christmas Eve. No, no, no.

2:23:05 He wasn't. We don't need to I guess we don't need to hold on to that specific date for that purpose. I don't think know. I was like, you know what, I'm good with keeping Christmas as my my memories of a traditional American Christmas. But I want to counter that a counter balance, that with something new, something different that can be a lot more focused and intense done on Christ. And I think, you know, honestly, I this year we are Yeah, I kind of did something kind of similar, we basically celebrated, the traditional cultural Easter a week ago. Yeah.

2:23:47 Because because come Sunday, it's really, it's Christ's resurrection. And it's atonement day. It's yeah, it's not Yom Kippur that's that's in the fall but I really is it's the Christian Yom Kippur right? And and so we're not doing Easter Bunny and eggs and stuff like that. On on this coming Sunday. Yeah, you know we did have a semblance of it before but it was also, you know, I'm obscure with my kids. You know, we're doing this as a cultural activity. There's nothing symbolic here. This isn't. We're not worshiping false gods. We're playing fun games because it's springtime and it's fun to play eggs.

2:24:33 I've got a bunch of chickens now and they're producing like two dozen eggs a day and how do you eat that many eggs? Eggs. Yeah, I gotta do something with them right. Right. No. And I think it's important to know that this is going to look different from family to family and that's okay, right? But I guess I guess, my main thrust is take it back repurpose it, consecrate it, and use it to the glory of God in some way. Period. However, you do that then that's between you and God and your family. But anyway, Dude, this was a great talk. Yeah, I love it brother.

2:25:14 All right well is there anything else you want to add before you wrapped up? um, I think we covered a lot of ground. We did. It was a it was a good conversation. Justin. I frankly think I could probably can go and dig back into the Dome and stuff for a while. But, you know, frankly I need to probably get some rest. Shouldn't stay up all night doing, right, cast? Yeah. Yeah. No. We both have families and jobs. We got to do. So dude. Let's do it again before long. All right. Awesome. Alright, bye everybody.

2:26:17 You're listening to the Mormon Renegade podcast.