Episode #5 Under The Banner Of Heaven: A review of the book & series with Ben Shaffer & Felipe

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So unless you live in the place
without internet or TV, I'm

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guessing Everyone by now is
heard that the book under the

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banner of heaven was turned into
a miniseries on the FX channel.

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And I'm guessing that there's
also a ton of Mormons out there

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who feel like they just got
blindsided by a bunch of obscure

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Mormon history.
Now, I felt kind of a sense of

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urgency here that we needed to
talk about this, so I brought on

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Ben.
A Shaker now Ben is kind of like

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the guy that everyone goes to
outside of fundamentalism to get

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answers.
He's very well-spoken and he's

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very articulate.
The other thing is that Fen has

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some very personal experiences
that he shares on this episode

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that parallel close.
Some of the events that are

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documented in the book under the
banner of Heaven.

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I also have on Felipe and he
provides some very interesting

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context on this subject.
Checked.

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Now, in this episode, not only
do we talk about the book and

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movie Under the banner of
heaven.

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But we also go over everything
from personal moral agency to

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blood atonement to the oath of
Vengeance and even provide a few

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pointers for navigating these
topics if they're new to you.

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That's next on this episode of
the Mormon Renegade podcast,

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Your listing to the Mormon
Renegade podcast.

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Welcome back to the Mormon
Renegade podcast as always you

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can get ahold of me either by
email at Mormon Renegade at

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gmail.com.
You can also get a hold of me on

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Instagram and Twitter and getter
under the handle.

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Mormon Renegade.
Also we have a website up and

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that's Mormon Renegade.com.
So go check that out.

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I'm here today with Ben Shafer
and And Felipe.

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Now just as a disclosure these
are both men.

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I go to church with.
I love these guys and I respect

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these guys having said that we
need to move right into what it

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is that we're going to talk
about today.

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I believe there are certain
points with in Mormonism that

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that Mormons have watershed
moments.

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And I really believe that this
is going to be one of those

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moments.
I think we saw one back when the

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Olympics came to Utah.
I think we saw one when shows

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like Sister Wives came out.
I think we saw it when Mitt

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Romney ran for president.
And I think we're going to see

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one now.
And unfortunately this time it's

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not so silly as, you know, Mitt
Romney's and movable hair or or

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the the Sister Wives show or
whatever.

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This is going to deal in some
very meaty stuff.

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So been Philippe, I can't tell
you how much it means to me that

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you're here.
Yeah, thanks for having us over

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so I know Ben you went to the
premiere, I did and the the new

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FX series under the banner of
Heaven.

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I got invited by Lindsay Hanson
Park.

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Have the year polygamy, probably
gasps.

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She's also very active of
course, in leading the Sunstone

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Educational Foundation.
She got me a invite to that

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Premiere because she helped
doing some cultural Consulting

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trying to make sure they didn't
completely blow it on their

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depictions of Mormonism and and
Utah.

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Oh, and so forth.
So, and I helped her out a

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little bit.
I know people throughout the

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Mormon fundamentalist Spectrum,
a bunch of different

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communities, and she wanted to
know some obscure things like,

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what did it look like in the
1980s in different places and I

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wasn't there.
But I do know people who were

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and so I was able to put her in
contact with some, some ideas

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for those depictions and yeah,
really powerful show.

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And and I think you're right,
this is why it's a watershed

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moment under the banner of
Heaven has been In the New York

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Times bestseller list for a
decade or more, I think I've

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ever forever ever since it came
out and it's depictions of

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Mormonism are dark and
terrifying.

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And of course, the subject
matter is really serious stuff

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and yet because it's viewed as
an anti-mormon work, I think a

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lot of Mormons haven't really
engaged with it and yet now I

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think that's going to become
unavoidable right now.

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This is really going to have to
spark a really big and important

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conversation.
Ation and I was at the premiere

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but it is now available as of
today on Hulu.

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And so I believe that as of
today it's really going to get

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probably get a lot of traction
and get a lot of people talking

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and I think, I think I can speak
for all of us here that we have

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felt in our heart.
That this is, this is why we are

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working so hard so quickly on
this, because if we don't help

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to frame our own narrative, we
let somebody else do it for us

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and ours alone.
And that's not to say a

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narrative in the terms of spin,
but that's narrative in terms of

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truth, right?
To be able to talk about these

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things.
At that Premiere.

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Do you feel like they did a good
job with inviting like enough,

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fundamentalist enough mainstream
LDS enough, Aunty Mo's?

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So to speak.
All right, you know, there was

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actually a really interesting
mix of people there.

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I sat right next to one of the
daughters of Dan Lafferty, who's

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still in prison.
And of course that was very

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Very, very difficult and
triggering for her.

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She left.
As soon as it was over, she just

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seems really broken up.
And I on the other side of me

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was Sandra Tanner of famous.
Utah, Lighthouse Ministries,

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right?
She's getting up there in years.

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I helped her find a seat, she
has a cane and it's a, you know,

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A theater has a sloped floor.
So I was like, hey, you're one

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of the matriarchs of Mormonism.
OK, anti Mormonism.

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But you know and she was like,
oh well, that's nice of you or

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whatever.
And I helped her find a seat and

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all that.
And we had people from the Meaty

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of Christ.
We had some independent, Mormon

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fundamentalist, Mormon families
from a couple of different

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communities, as well as myself,
of course.

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And so, yeah, I think there was
pretty darn good representation.

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Oh, and, of course, don't forget
the darters where they're Joe

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darker and his three wives or
really major icons.

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Yeah, of Mormon.
Fundamentalism royalty, royalty,

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be right.
That's celebrities.

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If this if there are any such
thing as as Martin fundamental

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celebrities.
That's them, that's it.

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Yeah.
So let's let's for those Those

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who haven't heard because I was
surprised so many people didn't

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know the story behind the banner
of Heaven under the banner of

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Heaven.
Can you give us a quick synopsis

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of what happened there was it
was a true story, it, right?

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And then and then of course, the
idea of the book is that

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krakauer Jon krakauer, the
author wanted to weave this into

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11 Grand Narrative of all of
Mormonism and connect it to kind

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of its most violent expressions.
And this is why it's viewed as

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such an anti-mormon work and why
I I believe it's actually work

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of dangerous levels of cultural
appropriation because as a

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non-mormon himself, he played
very fast and loose with a lot

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of the facts and then created a
narrative.

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Whereby he could profit off of a
different minority that he was

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not even a member of or
necessarily concerned about the

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consequences of his of his
actions.

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Now that said, I know a lot of
people listening or anything,

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but I thought the book was
amazing.

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I'm not saying it's not amazing.
I'm just saying it's

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appropriation.
Well, and that's the yeah.

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There's definitely some of that
it in there.

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I happen to be very much a
Libertarian when it comes to

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free speech.
Right?

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I believe in child West, Free
Speech.

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As long as you're not infringing
on the right of somebody else, I

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might go for it.
So I feel like krakauer's got

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that right?
Sure.

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But we also have the right to
refer refute.

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What is blatantly obvious?
Right wrong.

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So I guess my point is that in
in the book for sure.

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And I'm not sure about the TV
show, I've only seen the first

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two episodes that were shown at
the premiere.

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But he does generally conflate
all Mormon fundamentalist into

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the flds, which is actually one
different sect that actually had

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nothing to do with the
Lafferty's at all.

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So, so let me give you the basic
rundown.

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Spoiler alert.
By the way for you can go watch,

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you can go watch at least the
first two episodes on hooli

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right now.
So go ahead and pause it and

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watch them if you want but basic
basic overview the Lafferty's

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where a mainstream LDS Family,
very devout.

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Very, very connected.
They became somewhat more

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radicalized over time and it
culminated in them, murdering

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one of the members of the family
Brenda Lafferty and her daughter

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Erica and for clarity one of the
reasons why this is so

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triggering and so terrifying, is
that Erica Lafferty.

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Was just a baby and 15 years
old, crib, I think.

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Yeah, asleep in her crib and so
So brutal horrific murders.

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And it's one thing to murder
adult.

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I mean, we that's Murder Mystery
Dinner Theater, is kind of can

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be dismissed about the murder of
an adult but the cold-blooded

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murder of a baby is a level of
evil that most of us never even

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contemplate being possible and
and so it's their story and how

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they became radicalized and
delusional enough, and to this

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day Dan Lafferty is alive, he's
in the Utah, State Penitentiary.

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And to this day, he you know,
Not only uses religion to

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justify his murders.
He's proud of what he's done,

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right?
He believes that God wanted him

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to be a serial killer, and that,
this, that he's still fulfilling

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a Divine Purpose.
He takes a huge amount of

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grotesque, delusional pleasure
out of what he's done even now.

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And so, it's really kind of hard
to Grapple with that and

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therefore it brings up
questions.

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That krakauer in the book,
brings out saying, is this kind

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of delusion part First Love
religion, is this kind of

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murderous nature?
A fundamental just a part of

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Mormonism.
So fundamentally that you know

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that Mormonism breeds dangerous
men?

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And of course the real
anti-mormon take on that that's

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really terrifying.
Is it leaves the reader?

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I believe at least the book at
least I believe leads the reader

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to believe that Mormonism is so
fundamentally violent in its

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theology that anymore.
A Mormon.

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If they go a little too far, A
little too Mormon, they will

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also succumb to the darkness.
That is the nature, essentially,

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he believes of religion in
general, and they will become

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evil that they will kill.
And it's really a flawed.

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I'm just going to call it like I
see it.

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It's a flawed idea that he comes
out within that writes a Blog

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conclusion because let's face
it.

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If you were going to make a true
historical movie, I the Old

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Testament, that boy, bad boy is
rated R 0 but I but no.

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Not defending Christianity, his
bride all religions, I

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understand, I think he believes
the same thing about Christians

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as he does about Mormons.
If you become too deep in your

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Christianity, you will become a
monster.

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That's what I think he believed,
right?

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I'm just making the point that
that Mormonism isn't.

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The only religion that has a set
of scriptures that depicts Wars,

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right?
Well, certainly, and in fact, I

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think that's one of the big
questions.

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Is that depicting?
Something is in the same thing

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as participating in it.
What kind of scripture would it?

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It be if it doesn't wrestle with
the big questions, you know, the

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fundamental questions.
What is life about?

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What is moral?
What is the purpose?

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What is, what does it mean to
become the best that you can be?

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What's what is human nature?
Anybody who says that they're

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going to teach you about human
nature?

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And they, then they don't even
mention that violence.

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Might be one of the things that
can happen in human nature that,

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you know, that great evils can't
be possible.

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Well, then they're deluding
they're deluding themselves.

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Things are real.
They do exist in our world war,

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Israel.
I mean, right now we've got the

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war going on in Ukraine, and
that's not exactly staying

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local.
The concern is how big and how

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bad is this going to get.
And, of course, that's a very,

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very small, and localized
Skirmish compared to some of the

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things over the last hundred
years, right?

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Millions.
And millions of people have been

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slaughtered, the holocausts, the
world wars.

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And and so, yeah, I think that
it's crazy to assume that a

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religion shouldn't wrestle with
that.

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Of course, all religions have to
wrestle with the question.

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The the answer is, are we
finding a way to peace?

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Are we finding a way to Divinity
in spite of the evils and spite

231
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,400
of the the suffering in this
world, can we is religion

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exalting to the human soul,
right?

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00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,500
And I think that krakauer just
kind of Misses that and I don't

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know if the I don't know if the
show's entirely going to miss it

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00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,100
though.
For example in the show Jeb

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00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:19,200
pairi, the investigator is not
in the book.

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00:13:19,900 --> 00:13:24,500
His, he kind of takes on the
role of the reader becoming a

238
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:29,200
narrative tool to show you
through the story and he's

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00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,400
depicted as a loving faithful,
Mormon, man, and that can, I

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00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:38,700
hope be will see as the rest of
the episodes play out, but I

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00:13:38,708 --> 00:13:41,100
think that that's supposed to
show, kind of, the Redemptive

242
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:44,600
side of religion as well, that
that you can struggle with

243
00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,900
difficult issues and come out a
better man.

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00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,000
Not a worse, man, because you
struggled with difficult issues,

245
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:49,500
right?
Right.

246
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,500
It will be interesting to see
what they do with that character

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00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:56,700
and I hope I'm wrong, but my gut
tells me that he may end up

248
00:13:56,700 --> 00:14:01,100
losing his faith in in Mormonism
before this whole things over,

249
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:03,800
right.
Which is kind of what you'd

250
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,200
expect from the book.
So now, I want to be wrong,

251
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:07,800
right?
I want to be wrong at the end.

252
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,300
I want him to wrestle with all
these historical questions and

253
00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:15,200
come out on the other side, a
more well-informed, Mormon, a

254
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,600
more well-rounded Mormon and a
Mormon that also understands

255
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,700
human.
You're a little bit more because

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00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:23,900
let's face it as a people,
especially within the LDS

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00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:27,300
church.
I think I think a lot of things

258
00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:32,100
have been sanitized over faucher
in the LDS church and and when

259
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:34,400
these things come up, its mind
blowing.

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00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:39,800
When in our spoiler alert like I
said I go to church with Ben and

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00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:44,500
the conversation we had in the
meeting II.

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00:14:44,500 --> 00:14:47,600
Spoke to the fact that I think
that we as fundamentalist may

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00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,800
carry a larger responsibility on
our backs for explaining this

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00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:57,600
because the vast majority
Twenty-somethings, within the

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00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,400
church.
Have probably never heard of

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00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:02,900
blood atonement.
Have I never heard some of the

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00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:06,800
violence that kind of had to
take place in certain instances.

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00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,100
I'm not saying in all instances
but in certain instances when it

269
00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:15,000
was self-defense well and
sometimes also because we want

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00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,300
to make our people to Heroes,
right?

271
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,500
We ignore.
And we whitewash.

272
00:15:19,500 --> 00:15:22,400
Any story where we weren't where
I blame?

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00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:23,300
Right.
We did.

274
00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:27,400
We we as or as People.
I don't mean us individually,

275
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:27,700
right?
Good.

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00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,200
No, right.
And so, and I think that also is

277
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,700
human nature, right?
And that's the battle of

278
00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:37,800
history.
His balancing your ego with what

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00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,600
actually went.
Yeah, I mean, how many patriotic

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00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,400
military parades?
Would they be if we were going

281
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,100
to get nitpicky about?
Well, was it fully justified in

282
00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:47,300
each case?
How did this really go down?

283
00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:50,400
I mean, horrible things
happened, but we usually try to

284
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,200
make it out.
Like we're the good guys.

285
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,800
They're the bad guys.
This actually brings me up.

286
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,100
Brings me to one of of the
things I want to talk to him

287
00:15:57,100 --> 00:15:59,800
about this serpent, which is the
concept of other ring.

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00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,900
Okay, the US versus them
mindset.

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00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:08,100
One of the big issues with the
way we approach.

290
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:13,100
This kind of media is that we
almost always find a way

291
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:16,800
mentally emotionally, we Circle
our wagons, and we view

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00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:21,700
ourselves in the hero's role and
we view them in, you know, the

293
00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:25,600
other, the other the bad guys,
you guys, the antagonists.

294
00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:28,800
Has these these dark evil
forces.

295
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,200
They don't need to be
understood.

296
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,900
They aren't part of us.
Doesn't need to be wrestled

297
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:34,100
with, doesn't it?
Need to be confronted.

298
00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:36,700
It just needs to be conquered.
And so then we rejoice when the

299
00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:40,000
hero beats the bad guys.
Now this kind of way of

300
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,900
thinking, I mean it can be fun,
especially say.

301
00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:45,300
So if it's a Marvel movie or
something like that, you just

302
00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:48,100
want to identify with the hero.
The problem is is that when you

303
00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:51,700
wrestle with the really deep
questions of life, you have to

304
00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:55,200
embrace what Carl Jung, calls,
the shadow, you have to

305
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,200
recognize that That within you
exists the capability of great,

306
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,300
good and great evil.
And that really, you can't have

307
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:06,300
one without the other.
I believe you may have heard the

308
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:10,300
phrase.
A great man is not necessarily a

309
00:17:10,308 --> 00:17:13,400
harmless man, correct.
He's a man who could be a very

310
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:18,099
dangerous, dangerous man, but he
chooses virtue and I'm

311
00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:20,900
paraphrasing, but there's a
quote that goes along with those

312
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:23,300
lines.
So, my point is, is that when

313
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:27,200
you when people view or read
under the Of Heaven, one of the

314
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,900
most common things that they've
done, is that they will look at

315
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:34,100
themselves as people who, who
are probably more virtuous than

316
00:17:34,100 --> 00:17:36,200
all those bad guys.
Those bad Mormons or there's bad

317
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,900
Mormon, fundamentalist, or at
least just the bad Lafferty's,

318
00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,300
depending on how you look at it
and then you say, oh that's not

319
00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:44,600
part of us, right.
Clearly, that's not part of our

320
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,300
culture and this is one of the
big push backs when Mormons

321
00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:50,700
encounter it, Mormons going to
be wrestling with this because

322
00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:52,000
they're going to look at this
and they're like, that is

323
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,200
totally a lie, Mormonism.
Doesn't have that in it, that

324
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,200
none of that is more.
Ermine and that's what's called

325
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,200
the no true.
Scotsman fallacy.

326
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:04,000
And it comes from the fact that,
of course, Scotsman, again

327
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:05,800
partly because they were an
embattled minority for a great

328
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,400
deal of their history started to
have this idea that being a

329
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,500
Scotsman meant certain virtues
and then whenever somebody in

330
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:15,900
the community did something that
went against that Community

331
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:19,400
Athos.
What did something evil they

332
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,600
would say?
Oh well no true Scotsman would

333
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,800
have done such a thing and by
doing so they simply make that

334
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,900
Actual Scotsman not part of the
community more.

335
00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:32,600
They say he's out because our
community represents these

336
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,700
virtuous principles.
It doesn't represent that that

337
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:37,000
stuff.
The problem is that the

338
00:18:37,008 --> 00:18:42,100
Lafferty's were mainstream
faithful Latter-Day Saints in

339
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:43,400
the Church of Jesus Christ
Latter-Day Saints.

340
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,700
They served their missions.
They were sealed in the temple.

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00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,500
They were 110 percent
representative of the Church of

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00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:51,500
Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints.

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00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,300
Okay, so, so real quick here, a
couple things I might have to

344
00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:57,100
give a caveat To that.
So yeah.

345
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:03,100
So first off with with this idea
of no true Scotsman would do it.

346
00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:07,200
This idea that people say well
no, no true Mormon would ever do

347
00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,300
that right?
The, the issue with that.

348
00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:11,900
Is that a lot of them?
I think, really believe that

349
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:15,400
because they've never heard the
full history of the shore of

350
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,900
Mormonism, right?
And so, I wanted to give someone

351
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:21,000
the benefit of the doubt more
than just cognitive dissidence,

352
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,500
sometimes in the sense that you
just didn't get caught, well,

353
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:27,300
actually, we actually also have
a mechanism In Mormonism called

354
00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:30,000
excommunication, right?
When somebody does cross that

355
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,600
line and we don't want them in
the community more, we

356
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,300
excommunicate them and then we
say, oh no that's not part of us

357
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:38,500
because he's out now but he was
when he was when he was doing

358
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:40,400
it, right?
He was when he committed the

359
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,000
crime.
This is one of this is one

360
00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:43,500
thing.
That drove me.

361
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,000
Crazy about recent media.
I want to say it was only about

362
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,300
a year ago, might have been to.
There was a bishop in Lehi Utah,

363
00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:55,900
an actual sitting active Bishop
And he was a police officer.

364
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:02,800
Who ran an actual underage sex
trafficking ring and the church

365
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,600
wanted to say an ex-member.
All of the, all of the newspaper

366
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,100
article said, an ex-member of
the churches discuss.

367
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:12,600
A lot of things did this, and
I'm like, no, no.

368
00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:16,600
He was a bishop, an active
sitting Bishop sitting on the

369
00:20:16,608 --> 00:20:18,600
stand.
Taking the sacrament leading,

370
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,100
the priests Quorum, all of that
while he was committing these

371
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:22,900
crimes.
The fact that when you caught

372
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:25,900
him you have seen again it does
not change the fact that he did

373
00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:30,900
this as as A bishop and then,
they'd say, oh, well, it turns

374
00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:35,100
out that the girls that he was
exploiting, were not members of

375
00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:38,100
his Ward, do that me?
And I'm like, that doesn't make

376
00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:39,900
that any better.
Like, don't get me wrong.

377
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:42,800
I'm grateful for every person
who was spared being being a

378
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,000
victim, okay?
I'm grateful that these people

379
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,500
escaped that but that doesn't
reflect anything about his

380
00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:51,200
character just about his brains
about not being caught for so

381
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,400
long.
You know, he found ways around

382
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,500
getting caught.
That doesn't mean that the

383
00:20:56,500 --> 00:20:59,800
church doesn't Having a kip
capability recognizing doesn't

384
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,000
have any responsibility to
recognize this is part of our

385
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,400
community and this is a problem
that occurred in our community,

386
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,400
in our church, what do we do
about it?

387
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:11,200
Now, the Lafferty's, the caveat
I Gotta Give by the time they

388
00:21:11,208 --> 00:21:14,700
committed murder, they were
mixed up in another group.

389
00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:18,800
So will the process cool?
The prophets and it was this far

390
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,400
more looser Collective than were
aware of now and actually led to

391
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,400
some changes in mainstream LDS
church policy against having

392
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:30,600
study groups Or groups that, you
know, some informal Sunday

393
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,500
schools and things like that
harms thing, right?

394
00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:34,500
Correct.
No, is your you are wrong.

395
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:36,700
It was.
Robert Crossfield Crossfield who

396
00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:40,900
called himself the profit on
nyhus, actually, and published a

397
00:21:40,908 --> 00:21:44,000
book called the second book of
Commandments take off from the

398
00:21:44,008 --> 00:21:45,800
original before the doctor and
Covenants.

399
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,700
There was a book called The Book
of Commandments which contained

400
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:51,000
the revelations to Joseph Smith.
And so he's made a second book

401
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,800
of Commandments which contains
his Revelations and that's why I

402
00:21:53,808 --> 00:21:56,700
always have people on waste
Martyrs now.

403
00:21:56,900 --> 00:21:58,400
Field did pass away a few years
ago.

404
00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:02,300
There's a guy named Jason
Wharton, who claims to be the

405
00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:04,300
successor of that prophetic
line.

406
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:08,400
And I don't get on very well
though.

407
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,700
So I'm not sure what he's up to
these days.

408
00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:16,300
I've talked to him a few years
ago though, but the school of

409
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:18,900
prophets also was not
necessarily found to be entirely

410
00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:23,100
complicit in this.
This was really Dan and Robert

411
00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:28,300
Lafferty's own delusions, okay.
So even then you could say well

412
00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:30,300
okay, maybe they're not
representative of the mainstream

413
00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:32,900
LDS church because they're
involved with this other group

414
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:36,500
that's blame that other group.
Again, I want to remind The

415
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:38,200
Listener will talk about other
ring.

416
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:41,900
Okay, again we want to say, oh
they're not part of us, the part

417
00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:44,400
of them.
Well, what do you think they did

418
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,600
in the school of the prophets
there?

419
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,500
Like we had nothing to do with
this right off the bat.

420
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:51,400
Of course, they said that and
this is and I think some of them

421
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,500
genuinely didn't had no idea
what the Lafferty's were up to

422
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,700
the Lafferty's also got their
own Revelations.

423
00:22:57,700 --> 00:23:01,800
It's only and those Revelations
so-called, which were clearly

424
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,100
not from God.
I need to point out, they never

425
00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:08,700
made it into like the can None
of this other group, this the

426
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:12,300
school of the prophets people,
they never recognize it didn't

427
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,700
appear in this book of the
Prophet or nyhus or the second

428
00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:17,400
book of Commandments they were
doing their own thing, right?

429
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,300
So to say, to a certain extent,
if we want to other them, we can

430
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:23,100
say this was just the Lafferty's
problem.

431
00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:26,100
This was their own delusions and
if you look at him now he's

432
00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:31,300
definitely clinically insane
deeply insane and that kind of

433
00:23:31,308 --> 00:23:33,100
criminal Insanity.
It's easy to say, well that's

434
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:35,100
not part of us.
That's just one guy who's off

435
00:23:35,100 --> 00:23:38,800
his rocker.
But it's still part, not just of

436
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,700
the school of the prophets and
not just not even just the

437
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:43,800
Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints.

438
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,700
It's part of our community.
This happened here.

439
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,700
And one of the other things that
happens when we do like you

440
00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:57,100
said, and I like how you put it.
The other thing is that we don't

441
00:23:57,100 --> 00:24:00,900
that prevents us from looking at
ourselves and say, what were

442
00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:02,700
some of the warning signs,
right?

443
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:04,700
Right.
Could could, could this happen

444
00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:08,300
to one of my kids could this,
you know, what is this?

445
00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:12,300
And in that other ring, you kind
of isolate yourself.

446
00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:16,700
To look out for certain signs.
Exactly.

447
00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:19,000
Because what you did with the
first thing you have to do, in

448
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,200
order to in order to other them
as you have to get, you have to

449
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,100
be in denial.
You have to say oh well that's

450
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:25,300
no part of us.
We don't have to worry about

451
00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:27,300
that because that's not
something that we do.

452
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:31,400
That's not something any good
Mormon would do and it can it

453
00:24:31,408 --> 00:24:34,900
can happen in your own families
and so this is why I'm going to

454
00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:36,400
bring up something that's
difficult for me.

455
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:42,500
I've never talked fully about
publicly your listeners.

456
00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:45,700
Some of the No, I've been on
various other podcast and things

457
00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:47,500
like that.
I've talked about some of the

458
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:50,100
stuff, but I haven't really
talked about my brother Samuel

459
00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:55,200
Schaefer.
He's in prison, he's, he's

460
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,300
criminally insane.
The, he's in the mental health

461
00:24:58,300 --> 00:25:05,100
care units there, and that means
that he may not be released even

462
00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:08,800
after his 25 years.
He's been sentenced to our

463
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,400
completed.
He may stay even then just

464
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,400
because he won't be considered a
deal. deemed competent enough

465
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:20,800
for release, but it happened in
my own family and one of the

466
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:26,800
reasons is a little bit hard to
admit is because I wish this was

467
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,800
a story of total success and
it's not, it's a story of my own

468
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,900
failures in the failures of my
family to stand up effectively

469
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,500
against this kind of rhetoric.
This kind of, this kind of

470
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:40,600
insanity.
Now, first off, I do want to

471
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,400
say, I do not believe that
Mormonism or any religion can be

472
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:52,000
blamed for its craziest members,
Whenever there are especially

473
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,800
schizophrenic type disorders.
There is often a fixation on

474
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:02,700
Authority, this is my armchair
psychologist, take on it but I

475
00:26:02,708 --> 00:26:05,400
have studied this.
Some I'm a lawyer by training

476
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:12,600
not a psychologist but they
fixate often on authority

477
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,700
figures.
I have a good friend whose

478
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:17,700
mother was a paranoid
schizophrenic and her mother

479
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:20,400
committed suicide.
It was really, really, really

480
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,800
sad.
She felt that she had to commit

481
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:28,800
suicide because of terrorism.
Now, this is not logical.

482
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,500
This is this is insane, right?
This is because of her of her

483
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:35,200
illness mental illness.
She was convinced that the

484
00:26:35,208 --> 00:26:40,100
United States government was in
contact with her like subliminal

485
00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:44,000
Only through codes through these
other things and that they were

486
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,100
communicating with her because
there was something important

487
00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:49,700
she needed to do she needed to
save the lives of her fellow

488
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:54,100
Americans.
And she believed at the time of

489
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:58,400
her, of her death, or suicide
that if she followed through,

490
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,400
she could save them.
She could save thousands.

491
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,600
So she did it as a great
self-sacrifice.

492
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,100
Now that doesn't excuse the fact
that it's still suicide, she

493
00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:12,100
didn't need to take her life,
there were none of that was

494
00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:15,900
real.
She was fixated though on this

495
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:18,400
authority figure in this world
view.

496
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:23,400
This delusional world view.
But this worldview, nonetheless,

497
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,200
she believes is real.
And there's a flip side to that

498
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,600
two.
People will do dangerous and and

499
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,700
then also, of course, violent
things, when they think they

500
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:38,300
need to because somewhere in
their world view, it's

501
00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:42,400
necessary.
My brother Samuel.

502
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:49,000
Was always a little bit strange,
but nothing to worry about,

503
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,300
right?
He was eccentric.

504
00:27:50,300 --> 00:27:53,300
He wasn't evil.
He wasn't known to do any

505
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:57,700
violence to anyone or anything.
He never harmed a pet or

506
00:27:57,700 --> 00:28:02,600
anything like that.
And the person we were actually

507
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:09,200
really worried about originally,
was his wife, Carolyn, she is

508
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:10,800
all.
She's definitely mentally ill.

509
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,100
She's been in and out of the
Mental Hospitals, a few times.

510
00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:19,200
And again, she has a certain
different type of paranoid

511
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,800
delusions where she is always
worried about.

512
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,000
Again, I believe this is the
authority fixation, she's

513
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,600
worried about good and evil
spirits.

514
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,100
And so instead of seeing Like my
friend's mother instead of

515
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:36,100
seeing the world in terms of
government Authority and

516
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:39,500
terrorism, these types of
threats, she saw the world in

517
00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:44,500
religious terms, she saw the
Carolyn sees the world as being

518
00:28:44,500 --> 00:28:47,200
about good.
This Dynamic, an eternal

519
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,900
struggle between good and evil
and these spirits that are

520
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:52,600
constantly at War.
This might even be familiar to

521
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,000
some people.
Theologically who believe in

522
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,100
this kind of spiritual warfare
Paradigm, which can be a useful

523
00:28:59,100 --> 00:29:01,600
in genuine.
Religious perspective.

524
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:07,400
However again in this case it's
twisted it's twisted into a

525
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,000
delusional world view that puts
other people in danger.

526
00:29:10,300 --> 00:29:14,200
So for example she feels like
certain objects can be cursed or

527
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,700
blessed and that means they need
to either be held close to

528
00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:18,900
those.
You're trying to keep safe or

529
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:21,300
they have to be gotten rid of or
destroyed.

530
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,100
So it causes her to commit, a
lot of petty theft, Petty

531
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:29,900
vandalism and also hoarding
behaviors dangerous, hoarding

532
00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:32,400
Behavior.
Behaviors where she will keep

533
00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:34,900
rotten food or something like
that.

534
00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:38,400
Because if it was blessed, you
can't just get rid of it because

535
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:39,600
it's rotten.
It's special.

536
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,300
It's got this spiritual power in
it.

537
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,900
Well, yeah, clearly again,
that's delusional.

538
00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:47,600
So, if you want to, if you want
to set it up, if you want to set

539
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,100
up a straw man and say, religion
is wrong.

540
00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:52,100
Religion is evil.
Well, here's your straw man for

541
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:54,000
you.
Find somebody with paranoid,

542
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:59,400
delusions, or schizophrenia, and
they're going to defend what

543
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,900
they're there.
Worldview in those in the terms

544
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:07,400
of what they believe in.
And that's, that's why so many

545
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,400
things like the movie, It's A
Beautiful Mind, A Beautiful

546
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:17,700
Mind, Russell, Crowe A Beautiful
Mind, that that movie is really

547
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:24,300
about his paranoid schizophrenia
and how he, how he views that as

548
00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:29,200
part of the government must be
asking me is the way he thinks

549
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:34,300
about the government must be.
Asking me to decipher these

550
00:30:34,300 --> 00:30:37,200
codes or something right now.
He still has a brilliant.

551
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,400
Beautiful mind.
That's the name of the movie,

552
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,000
but he also struggles with these
delusions.

553
00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:46,200
Okay, I'm almost too much set up
and I'm beating around the bush.

554
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:53,500
Now my brother Samuel,
Definitely had a hard time

555
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,100
settling on anyone worldview.
We didn't think this was

556
00:30:57,100 --> 00:30:58,200
violence.
We didn't think this was

557
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,500
dangerous.
Certainly not at first.

558
00:31:03,100 --> 00:31:04,900
It was just that he changed his
mind, a lot.

559
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,000
He hung out with some Mormon
fundamentalists that were

560
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,000
Independence.
He studied a lot of church

561
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,000
history.
Actually, he was even just into

562
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,800
that, even when he was on his
LDS mission, he's I read a lot

563
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:25,300
of neat books and again I don't
there's nothing wrong with those

564
00:31:25,300 --> 00:31:27,800
books where I love the general
discourses.

565
00:31:28,300 --> 00:31:31,000
But what the difference is is
that he didn't approach it with

566
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,500
a regular healthy mind.
He approached it with a certain

567
00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:38,900
kind of obsessiveness, he would
find one favorite idea and he

568
00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:42,000
would beat it to death.
It would be the only thing

569
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,800
that's important.
The only thing that's important

570
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,600
in the entire universe.
For sometimes months at a time.

571
00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:51,600
And then he would switch and
he'd be like, no, no, that's

572
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:52,800
stupid.
I don't even believe that

573
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:53,900
anymore.
That's just garbage and he'd

574
00:31:53,900 --> 00:31:56,200
throw out the one thing and
fixate on something new.

575
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,600
And so he did this as he bounced
around a lot of different

576
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,300
worldviews, interestingly
enough, he stayed a member of

577
00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:07,000
the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints through many

578
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,500
iterations of this.
It wasn't until he became an

579
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:13,200
atheist ex-mormon that he said
that he was done with it and he

580
00:32:13,208 --> 00:32:16,200
resigned his church membership
in the earliest church, and so,

581
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:19,700
That was one of his faces.
He was an atheist ex-mormon and

582
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:24,100
then he became an agnostic
ex-mormon and then he Dove right

583
00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:27,500
back into different more
extremist views where you fixate

584
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:29,200
on one thing or another that it
was really important to him.

585
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,000
I don't think he actually came
back to Mormonism immediately.

586
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,100
He regained his theism by
discovering the worship of the

587
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,200
of the old pagan gods, the Norse
gods and some of these other

588
00:32:41,900 --> 00:32:44,800
religions and he found great
Beauty in that and excitement.

589
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,100
And I thought, well, that's cool
too.

590
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:48,800
Like, I love world religions.
I'm interested in all these

591
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,500
different art, great archetypes.
But again, that's that wasn't

592
00:32:52,500 --> 00:32:55,100
what it was for him.
What it was for him was a

593
00:32:55,100 --> 00:33:00,900
fixation taken to extremes at
all times, but never steady

594
00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:06,000
enough to to Bear to Bear, good
fruit in his life to mean

595
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,700
something to him.
It was almost like, whatever.

596
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:13,500
He was studying at the time
became so Central to his core

597
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,100
and his identity and his
identity that he would sell out

598
00:33:17,100 --> 00:33:19,800
for it, right?
Oh, absolutely which and here's

599
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,300
the Fine Line pen.
Is that ideally, I mean us as

600
00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:27,000
Mormons, that's that's what we
all strive for, right, is

601
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,100
selling out to that ideal to
assert.

602
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:33,400
And, and I think that's where
krakauer is potentially, right?

603
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:35,600
That religion becomes very
dangerous.

604
00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:39,100
I believe that any time you
abdicate, your moral

605
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:43,100
responsibility.
You are in the wrong.

606
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:44,900
I don't care if you're
advocating a moral

607
00:33:44,900 --> 00:33:47,000
responsibility to follow.
Someone who is telling you to

608
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,800
do, what is right.
If you're abdicating, your moral

609
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,800
responsibility you I've lost
part of what it means to be a

610
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:59,000
responsible adult human being.
You know, if somebody says, you

611
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,600
know what, I'm just going to go
with it.

612
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,900
I'm going to join the Peace
Corps or the Red Cross.

613
00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:06,400
And I'm going to give it my all
that sounds like a virtuous

614
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,000
thing, right?
Or Doctors Without Borders or so

615
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,900
you know, Oxfam you're engaged.
In good works, right?

616
00:34:12,100 --> 00:34:16,600
Know if you're doing it morally
blind, right?

617
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:21,000
Then it's wrong.
You never ever ever do anything,

618
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,300
morally, blind, otherwise,
otherwise all any kind of evil

619
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:28,100
is possible.
And so anyways, he went through

620
00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:31,199
all these different iterations
and he fell in with a guy named

621
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:35,900
John Cole Tharp And for those of
you who have seen because I've

622
00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:37,400
warned you, you should have
already seen it.

623
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,199
The first couple of episodes of
under the banner of Heaven.

624
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,100
This is became very, very
personal to me because John Cole

625
00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:49,300
Tharp was very much.
Oh my goodness.

626
00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:51,000
He's so similar to the
Lafferty's.

627
00:34:52,100 --> 00:34:57,000
He believes himself to be the
one Mighty and strong a

628
00:34:57,100 --> 00:35:00,300
reference to Doctrine command
section 85 that was in the first

629
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,900
episode of under the banner of
Heaven, only Mormons pregnant

630
00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:10,100
pick up on the reference, right?
But he believed herself to the

631
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:12,100
one Mighty and strong, he
believed himself to be Joseph.

632
00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:15,600
Smith reincarnated, I believe, I
think so that he's got that

633
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,500
multiple mortal probations type
of Doctrine in his mindset.

634
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,600
He believed that he was his
calling to to unite all the

635
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,500
Mormon sects and make them all,
all unite under his leadership

636
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:31,500
and things like that.
And he was a dangerous pedophile

637
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:34,300
and extremists of violent,
pedophile, and a violent

638
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:40,700
extremist and My Brother Sam.
Fell into thinking this guy's

639
00:35:40,700 --> 00:35:45,200
it, he's the real deal.
I should sell out in the sense

640
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,400
that like you were saying, aye,
if this is the real thing, I

641
00:35:48,408 --> 00:35:50,900
should commit 110%, I should
abdicate.

642
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:52,900
My moral responsibility, should
do whatever this man says

643
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:59,100
because this man speaks for God.
He believed now of course his

644
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:01,300
just another one of this string
of delusional.

645
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:03,900
Oh, maniacs.
And we need to get into that.

646
00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:08,000
But I'm gonna finish telling the
story first, So, John Cole

647
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,100
Tharp.
Receives these Revelations about

648
00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:16,000
marriage which were well, of
course we didn't know about

649
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,700
this.
Yet at the time he receives

650
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:24,500
these Revelations on marriage
that basically indicate his

651
00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:27,200
belief.
That, like Jacob worked for

652
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:31,600
seven years to obtain worked for
Laban for seven years to obtain

653
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,600
a wife that the Dowry and this
kind of thing is really

654
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,900
essential to getting your wife
that you should work for her.

655
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,100
Her.
But you can't work for a woman

656
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:47,000
who's already liberated?
Who's already an adult, so you

657
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:52,900
have to sorry, trigger warning.
For the lister's, you have to

658
00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:56,300
pick a child and you have to
raise her the way you want her

659
00:36:56,900 --> 00:37:01,400
and you have to work for her
father for her and do service or

660
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,300
pay money or both.
To basically purchase that child

661
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:08,600
has your bright.
That's the way he twisted.

662
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,800
This, he turned this into this
monstrous pedophile doctor.

663
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,800
Now, we didn't know.
That's exactly what they were up

664
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,800
to, but, and this is where some
of my failures come in.

665
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:23,400
We did know that John Cole tarp
was trouble, John Cole, Tharp

666
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,200
had said, a lot of other things
that were just horrible and

667
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,300
violent in nature.
He would say, things like, You

668
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:35,700
have to recognize that I am the
Lord's Prophet otherwise you

669
00:37:35,700 --> 00:37:39,300
will be destroyed you know he
used a lot of being destroyed

670
00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:42,900
rhetoric.
He used a lot of threats and

671
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:49,400
just even just plain harassment.
He came to meetings once for

672
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,500
Christchurch he showed up My
Brother Sam.

673
00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:55,800
Of course knew where I lived
he's my brother and this is the

674
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,100
came to meeting one time and he
really came just to harass and

675
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:02,200
tell us.
Us that we were all wrong and

676
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,100
false apostates because we
didn't have enough of the Holy

677
00:38:05,100 --> 00:38:07,600
Spirit to recognize that he was
God's chosen mouthpiece.

678
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:11,300
And so we were like yeah we
don't do that here, you know,

679
00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:15,000
but what did I do?
I try to be polite about it.

680
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:19,300
I tried to be a peacemaker about
it, I'd sorter or so I thought,

681
00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:21,500
I've always thought of a
peacemaker as somebody who

682
00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:26,100
deescalate, the situation is
really nice about stuff Smiles.

683
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:28,500
You know, that's what I thought.
A peacemaker was the time.

684
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,600
And I got in the way I got in
the way of John Colter, oops,

685
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,000
Kingdom.
Apparently, when I did those

686
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:42,900
things, when I post him, Well, a
little while, this is the other

687
00:38:42,900 --> 00:38:47,000
thing, we knew that Sam My
Brother Sam and he has two

688
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,500
daughters that, that they were
not in a very safe situation.

689
00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:54,900
They kept being it, kept me an
unstable situation, John Colter

690
00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:57,600
clearly had this strange, hold
over him.

691
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,600
But again, it was like the
justifications are, well,

692
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:09,300
shouldn't we keep the peace and
shouldn't we be polite, and

693
00:39:09,300 --> 00:39:15,400
maybe it's none of our business.
But I was worried and I asked my

694
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,200
whole family to come over to my
house all except Sam, of course,

695
00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:21,300
at this time we'd already had
arguments about some of his

696
00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:24,700
racist doctrines.
Some of his crazy ideas, I

697
00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:30,600
warned him, but again, politely
warned him that this wasn't a

698
00:39:30,607 --> 00:39:34,700
very good or healthy situation.
But what did I done?

699
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:35,700
Nothing?
Really.

700
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,600
Alright, I'd been polite about
it and that was already too much

701
00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:44,000
for My Brother Sam.
He was deeply offended that I

702
00:39:44,008 --> 00:39:46,700
would tell him off and tell him
the John Cole Tharp wasn't a

703
00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:50,000
good man and that he was being
racist and that he was being

704
00:39:50,300 --> 00:39:52,700
neglectful to his children, in
that, this did not sound like

705
00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:57,700
good Doctrine and that, you
know, and I even pointed out to

706
00:39:57,700 --> 00:40:01,400
him because he talked about
this, you got to work hard for a

707
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,500
wife or whatever and I'm like,
yeah, but that doesn't.

708
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:05,000
Matter.
Because you better not be

709
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,100
working hard for an underage
person.

710
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:10,300
A person is of age, that parents
have no claim on them.

711
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:12,100
That's just not how it works in
our societies.

712
00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:14,600
Like, well, it's the way it
should work in our society and

713
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,100
stuff like that.
And I'm like, look, women aren't

714
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:19,300
your property and I told him a
couple things like that but I

715
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:22,200
but how much of how
confrontational was that?

716
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,600
It was confrontational enough
that he and I had a falling out

717
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,500
and he more or less said I'm
going to spend the holidays,

718
00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:31,300
with my real family.
My true family is John Cole

719
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:34,100
Tharp because he is God's.
Offit.

720
00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:36,500
And that means I'll be sealed to
him for eternity, but I'm not

721
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:39,000
seal to you because you're an
apostate and you won't accept

722
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,800
these doctrines and that really
pissed me off.

723
00:40:42,300 --> 00:40:46,200
And I but again, I was thinking
that this was about my

724
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,000
relationship with him.
I was thinking this was about me

725
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,700
being a peacemaker, not about my
relationship to a potentially

726
00:40:52,700 --> 00:40:56,300
violent situation.
So here's what I didn't know

727
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,200
after these conversations after
we had this falling out.

728
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:07,500
Sam and John Cole, Tharp entered
into a contract.

729
00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:12,800
According to those doctrines or
John would take my niece's to be

730
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,600
his wives, and he would take
John Cole tarps daughters to be

731
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,900
his wives.
They then performed their own

732
00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:29,100
marriages with these nine and
ten-year-olds. and, Then once

733
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:32,000
they were once, they were
engaged in actual pedophilic

734
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,200
acts, they knew that they were
in danger.

735
00:41:35,700 --> 00:41:38,100
So that's when they cut off,
communication with everyone and

736
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:39,600
everything, and they
disappeared.

737
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:42,300
Now when they did that,
apparently they were living in

738
00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:46,900
Spring City, Utah, and to
disappear, they moved, they

739
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,100
bought some land.
And they moved somewhere on the

740
00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:53,900
outskirts of Cedar City, and we
just didn't hear from him, for

741
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:58,000
months about that time.
I knew that they Disappeared

742
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,800
somewhere.
And that they'd been talking

743
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,300
about weird stuff.
And I was already worried about

744
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:09,200
my nieces.
And so I I brought my family to

745
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:14,400
my house and that's yeah.
Okay, back on track, my mom, my

746
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:20,500
dad, my younger brother, my
sister, my brother-in-law.

747
00:42:21,700 --> 00:42:25,400
We all sat down and I said, I
think we need to call CPS.

748
00:42:27,700 --> 00:42:29,400
The child protective services,
right?

749
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,600
The DCFS and you're an attorney.
So you know that this is opening

750
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,600
up a whole can.
When you do that I do and I am

751
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,200
sorry to say and I'll probably
just have to say it right here.

752
00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:46,100
I still don't trust them icps
and DCFS, they are

753
00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:50,600
unconstitutional, disgusting
prejudicial organizations that

754
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,700
are actively engaged in genocide
regularly.

755
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,300
They, I know people and several
Native Americans, Friends and

756
00:42:57,300 --> 00:42:58,900
clients.
I've had where they wanted to

757
00:42:58,908 --> 00:43:01,700
take their children just because
they wanted to make those

758
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:04,800
children more white just because
they wanted to destroy their

759
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,600
culture and Heritage.
I've seen them do this over and

760
00:43:07,607 --> 00:43:10,400
over again.
And, and frankly, as we get

761
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,900
further in the story and you see
how DCFS acted, they behaved in

762
00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:18,900
a violent and illegal manner.
Even in this case, I had my own

763
00:43:18,900 --> 00:43:20,900
go rounds with them, that we
won't go into here.

764
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,600
But I can't agree with you more.
I mean, it's and yet and yet, I

765
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,900
just want to make the point.
I know your stance on it, so,

766
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:30,800
right.
And I'm glad you brought that

767
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:36,300
out because to make you get to
the point you and attorney a

768
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:39,100
Mormon fundamentalist, a
well-known Mormon,

769
00:43:39,100 --> 00:43:41,800
fundamentalist, to want to
involve them in my family's life

770
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,300
and open us up to that scrutiny.
It was not something I wanted.

771
00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:50,600
It's true but I think it shows
and a high level of Integrity on

772
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,400
your part that you're like,
okay, consequences be damned at

773
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:56,700
this point because it because
got that letter.

774
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,700
Dangerous.
Yeah, they got a better shot at

775
00:43:58,700 --> 00:44:00,000
CPS.
Am I understanding that

776
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,100
correctly?
Yes that's correct.

777
00:44:01,100 --> 00:44:03,300
And actually and here's one
other thing I want to make clear

778
00:44:03,300 --> 00:44:09,000
after I've pointed out my
position I I deeply regret that

779
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,300
I did not do it.
My family got together, we

780
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:16,100
talked about it and everybody
kept saying, we can't trust

781
00:44:16,100 --> 00:44:20,000
them, we can't do that.
You don't have any evidence that

782
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,600
Sam, or John Colter / doing
anything, violent or dangerous,

783
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:25,900
or harming those girls in any
way.

784
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,000
You just, you can't trust.
DCFS.

785
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,800
You cannot call them and
everyone, my family begged, me

786
00:44:32,808 --> 00:44:37,800
not to do it.
And I didn't do it but I regret

787
00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:41,200
that I didn't do it, it would
have been better for everyone,

788
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,700
if I had done it.
And this is one of the things

789
00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:46,700
that's hard.
We don't have perfect systems.

790
00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:48,400
Okay.
The justice system isn't perfect

791
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,000
and certainly not the Child
Protective Services System, it

792
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:56,800
is not perfect, but it's better
than letting dangerous

793
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,600
individuals get away with it or,
or turning a blind eye to this

794
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,000
kind of violent rhetoric and
the, The Fallout from, that is

795
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:09,000
something I can't undo because,
but I really wish I could go

796
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,800
back and just called DCFS
because what they would have

797
00:45:12,808 --> 00:45:15,900
done, Done in spite of the fact
that I believe that they handle

798
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:20,100
many, these cases horribly
responsibly is still better

799
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,500
because they can do something
and let's face it, they have

800
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:26,400
saved many children from
terrible situations and in this

801
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:28,900
case, they would have been much,
much better off.

802
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,900
So, here's the other thing that
I didn't know at the time, John

803
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:37,400
Colter.
I've got a revelation now,

804
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:38,700
famously.
I'm going to bring this back to

805
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:41,900
under the banner of Heaven.
The Lafferty Brothers.

806
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:47,000
Got a revelation that said
Brenda Lafferty is an obstacle

807
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:49,500
the removal Revelation.
Yeah, they called the removal

808
00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:54,800
that she needed to be removed
and and that was their

809
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,600
justification for murdering her
and her baby John Cole Tharp.

810
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:06,100
Got a revelation. saying that I
was the obstacle to God's

811
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:17,000
kingdom that I had to be removed
and my daughter's taken and, I

812
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:20,800
didn't know it.
I found out the way almost

813
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,400
everyone in Utah.
Did an amber alert.

814
00:46:24,300 --> 00:46:28,500
My phone made the funny sound
the and I looked at it and I

815
00:46:28,500 --> 00:46:29,800
couldn't believe what I was
seeing.

816
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:36,800
It said suspect Samuel Schaefer
for girls believed to be in real

817
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:42,300
Danger.
And I was like, what the heck is

818
00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:44,700
going on?
Because as much as I believe in

819
00:46:44,700 --> 00:46:47,600
my brother to be going down a
dark path, I didn't know how

820
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,000
dark and I didn't know how far
certainly.

821
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:55,000
And I thought, well, look, even
if he's being irresponsible, I

822
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,000
don't think he would
intentionally hurt anybody.

823
00:46:57,500 --> 00:46:59,600
Well, and here's the thing.
It's all academic.

824
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,700
Till the crap hits the fan.
Oh yeah, right.

825
00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:05,100
And pardon the expression but
that's just the truth of it,

826
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:07,100
right?
We think about certain scenarios

827
00:47:07,300 --> 00:47:09,700
all the time.
It's one thing to think about

828
00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:11,800
it's another thing to get the
Amber Alert.

829
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:12,800
Right?
Right.

830
00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:16,100
And, you know, the old
expression, crap just got real.

831
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:21,200
It got really real really fast.
And so I was like, what the heck

832
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,200
is going on?
I was shocked.

833
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,500
I couldn't believe it.
I didn't have a good number to

834
00:47:27,500 --> 00:47:32,200
call him and then other calls
started coming in.

835
00:47:32,700 --> 00:47:34,200
I got a call from the Salt Lake
Tribune.

836
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,000
They wanted to know what I
thought.

837
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:41,000
I thought I told him what I
thought.

838
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,700
I said, I don't think he's
violent.

839
00:47:42,700 --> 00:47:44,100
I don't think he's dangerous.
I don't think he would have done

840
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:47,600
anything to hurt anybody.
I don't think he's a bad guy.

841
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,600
I don't.
I mean, you know like I have

842
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,600
I've been I've been on the outs
with him.

843
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,600
We've been estranged a bit but
that doesn't.

844
00:47:56,100 --> 00:47:58,700
I mean that doesn't mean I think
you'd hurt anybody.

845
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:01,700
He's been in my home.
This is the thing with the other

846
00:48:01,700 --> 00:48:06,500
ring, okay?
The first step is always denial.

847
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,600
Not the Lafferty's.
Nah, they're good.

848
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,100
They're good Mormons.
They couldn't possibly be

849
00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:14,700
involved in that.
Chad a bell.

850
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:19,800
He's a desert book author.
He's, he does speaking tours.

851
00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:22,500
He's a good respectable man.
He can't be a serial killer.

852
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,200
Nobody would have thought so
right.

853
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,200
And so I was in that stage and I
told him, no, I don't think he

854
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,400
heard anybody on these wrapped
up in anything illegal or or

855
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,300
anything horrible.
You know what I mean?

856
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:35,600
But that was just my own did.
I'll and this is the type of

857
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,000
thing.
You hear, every time it comes

858
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,500
up, and this is why we need, we
really need to catch ourselves.

859
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:44,200
We need to watch ourselves me,
having been through this, I need

860
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,000
to warn you.
You gotta watch yourself when it

861
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,200
happens to you.
If it happens to you, you're

862
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,500
going to say, but they were such
a nice neighbor.

863
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:55,100
Oh, but they were our friend.
The thing is, you don't know

864
00:48:55,100 --> 00:48:58,700
what people's private lives.
Are you just don't?

865
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:04,200
Especially when it comes to
sexual crimes.

866
00:49:05,100 --> 00:49:09,500
A person can be legitimately a
brilliant mind, a great pillar

867
00:49:09,500 --> 00:49:13,300
of the community.
Very clean-cut always respectful

868
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,400
and a child molester they can be
both.

869
00:49:16,700 --> 00:49:20,600
In fact, most of them are and it
doesn't necessarily they can be

870
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,700
a great artist and a pervert,
you know, there was plenty of

871
00:49:24,700 --> 00:49:27,800
examples of these things and I
think that we need to be able to

872
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,700
compartmentalize that enough to
say, you know what?

873
00:49:30,100 --> 00:49:33,200
I appreciate their art anyway.
I appreciate the work they did

874
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,600
for the community anyway, but I
will not use any of that to be

875
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,100
an excuse for this other crap
that goes on.

876
00:49:39,500 --> 00:49:41,900
So, anyways, apparently John
Colter had this revelation.

877
00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:48,600
They were setting up their new
house in Cedar City area.

878
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:54,100
No, I I find the term compound a
little too pejorative.

879
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:55,800
They were basically just
building a house, you know.

880
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,200
It's not like, I don't know what
compound is, accepted,

881
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:02,200
pejorative term for house.
Generally, you know, people

882
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,500
always all the more fundamental
seen their compounds wants about

883
00:50:04,500 --> 00:50:06,600
the same thing as Suburbia.
It's just that we don't like

884
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:07,800
those people.
So we called a compound.

885
00:50:08,300 --> 00:50:11,900
Anyway they were setting up
their thing down there and

886
00:50:11,900 --> 00:50:15,500
they'd gone Back up to Spring
City, apparently to get some

887
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:18,100
more stuff.
And John Colter had not been

888
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:21,600
allowing his children.
The mother of his children to

889
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,800
see his children.
They were no, I don't know if

890
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,800
they were divorced or just a
strange.

891
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,200
Maybe they were divorced.
Anyway, I don't know much about

892
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,000
their situation only as it
relates to me really, but she

893
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,700
was looking for the kids and so
the police went to do a wellness

894
00:50:33,700 --> 00:50:36,000
check.
And there they were trying to

895
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,500
get stuff out of the house and
disappear.

896
00:50:37,500 --> 00:50:39,800
And here's the cops.
It was like fortuitous timing.

897
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,700
See.
Okay, so they arrest John Cole,

898
00:50:41,700 --> 00:50:43,100
Tharp when he won't cooperate.
Great with them.

899
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,300
Our tell him where his kids are
or allow her to have any custody

900
00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:48,800
or any of that.
And then My Brother Sam goes on

901
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,400
the lam and tries to hide tries
to run, and it made no sense to

902
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,500
me.
Made no sense to me now, they

903
00:50:55,500 --> 00:51:01,400
did catch him.
Um, he was trying to find some

904
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,900
other shelter.
Some other places in winter to

905
00:51:04,300 --> 00:51:07,200
summer brother, Sam's got four,
little girls.

906
00:51:07,900 --> 00:51:13,700
All of whom are witnesses to
their crime, all of whom would

907
00:51:13,700 --> 00:51:16,200
out them because they've been
brainwashed into this.

908
00:51:16,500 --> 00:51:19,400
The first thing they would have
said, I think is oh, yeah, he's

909
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:20,900
my husband or something, you
know what I mean?

910
00:51:20,900 --> 00:51:22,400
They'd totally brainwashed them
into this.

911
00:51:25,100 --> 00:51:27,100
And so he's got four little
girls.

912
00:51:28,100 --> 00:51:31,400
And I should I should point this
out, it's not an excuse but it

913
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,900
is context.
My Brother Sam has had some

914
00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:36,800
pretty serious physical
disabilities.

915
00:51:37,500 --> 00:51:39,600
So he's not exactly the most
capable guy and he's trying to

916
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,200
bring for little girls in the
dead of winter, through the

917
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:45,900
middle of nowhere, in the
desert, somewhere out in the

918
00:51:45,900 --> 00:51:49,700
west deserts, and trying to hide
from the cops, all the same

919
00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:50,900
time.
Yeah.

920
00:51:50,900 --> 00:51:57,400
So that was not going to work
obviously and so somewhat to His

921
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,700
credit, he basically ends up
turning himself in, he walks out

922
00:51:59,700 --> 00:52:02,900
to the road flag, someone down
the cup and tells the cops, or

923
00:52:02,900 --> 00:52:06,400
the kids are hiding.
Because he couldn't, he couldn't

924
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,700
keep them safe, they were going
to freeze, right?

925
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,300
But here's the thing, that
enrages me about this, these

926
00:52:12,300 --> 00:52:15,100
religious justifications and
these delusions.

927
00:52:16,900 --> 00:52:19,200
All I know this point, of
course, I don't know anything

928
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:20,900
about the abuse.
I don't know anything about

929
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:22,800
them.
Having a revelation to murder me

930
00:52:23,300 --> 00:52:27,800
or any of that craziness?
I just know that I get a call.

931
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,600
They found your nieces and they
found your brother and they're

932
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:35,100
in Cedar City.
And someone, I mean, I'm man.

933
00:52:35,100 --> 00:52:37,000
Do I wish I had a recording
these conversations now, but

934
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,800
somebody it's CPS goes yeah,
we're not we're not sure what

935
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:42,300
the situation is going to be for
him.

936
00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:45,200
Maybe they need to be picked up
or something and I'm like that's

937
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:50,700
like three hours away and it's
you know it's evening already I

938
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:54,200
better go pick up those girls.
I can't just you know have them

939
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,100
out here in the desert or what
the heck.

940
00:52:56,300 --> 00:53:00,200
So I jump in the car.
We get we get car seats from my

941
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,600
other.
Niece has other side of the

942
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:04,200
family, right?
Henry, we load up the car and I

943
00:53:04,207 --> 00:53:08,400
drive Straight down there to
pick up the girls when I get

944
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,000
there.
Boy, howdy.

945
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,600
Is there something weird that I
cannot put my finger on but the

946
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,900
police are just like, hostel.
Hostel is heck.

947
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,200
And I'm like, so what's going
on?

948
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,300
Where's the kids?
Do you need my help?

949
00:53:22,500 --> 00:53:25,300
And they're all like, hands on
their gun.

950
00:53:25,300 --> 00:53:28,000
Like, what's your full name?
Show us your ID.

951
00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:30,500
You know what I mean?
Like, not cool with me at all.

952
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,800
I look, I'm a lawyer and they're
like, are you his lawyer?

953
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,400
I'm like, well, no, not really.
It's just, My brother, you know

954
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,600
what I mean?
But I didn't know you level the

955
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,800
full excited know the full
extent of what was going on,

956
00:53:40,100 --> 00:53:41,100
right?
And apparently they're

957
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:45,300
interrogating, the other room
and he's spilling you know he's

958
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:47,900
just telling him everything he's
going this guy, he's spilling

959
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:50,400
his guts saying God has
commanded me to like molest

960
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,200
little girls and murder my
brother and all this crazy crap.

961
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:54,500
That's what's going on in the
other room.

962
00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:56,500
You know what I mean?
And they're like, get out of

963
00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:58,100
here, you know what I mean?
And I'm just like, what about

964
00:53:58,100 --> 00:53:59,400
the kids?
And they're like, the kids are

965
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,500
not your concern.
You know what I mean?

966
00:54:01,500 --> 00:54:04,000
Kind of thing.
I'm just like, holy crap, you

967
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,700
know?
And I don't know how they know

968
00:54:07,700 --> 00:54:09,700
what's going on, right?
So the next day after they're

969
00:54:09,700 --> 00:54:12,700
done, interrogating my brother.
I actually go into the jail and

970
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:14,900
say, I want to talk to him and
they say what gives you the

971
00:54:14,908 --> 00:54:17,100
right to talk to him.
And so, I did, I told the lawyer

972
00:54:17,100 --> 00:54:19,600
card, I pulled out my bar card
and I said, I'm his lawyer.

973
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,600
If you don't give me access to
my client, you'll be in

974
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:23,700
violation of the law.
And then they said, yes, sir,

975
00:54:23,700 --> 00:54:28,700
and they let me do it.
So, Hopefully, that's not abuse

976
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:35,100
of my privilege.
So, anyways, oppression to put

977
00:54:35,100 --> 00:54:37,300
it that way.
Don't listen, if you remember

978
00:54:37,300 --> 00:54:40,600
that, your tow bar association.
Um, anyway, um, hopefully, this

979
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,500
is a little bit comedic, but so
they pull him out and he's like,

980
00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:46,200
hey Ben, how's it going?
And I'm like, hey, I'm talking

981
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,800
to what is going on?
What have you told the police,

982
00:54:49,100 --> 00:54:51,200
you know, do you need me to
represent you?

983
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,000
I have you committed a crime,
what's going on, you know, and

984
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,900
he, he, he talks to me for a
while.

985
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,100
While it's nice to see you, but
in a little while a little bit

986
00:55:00,100 --> 00:55:02,700
by little bit, I start chipping
away and he starts telling me.

987
00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:07,600
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm abusing.

988
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,700
This girl's cheese.
Yeah, I was running from the

989
00:55:11,700 --> 00:55:15,200
cops because I have committed
crimes and I committed multiple

990
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:19,100
other crimes and then the thing
that really just made me want to

991
00:55:19,107 --> 00:55:20,600
strangle him.
That's one of the reasons why

992
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:24,400
those glass there I'm sure it's
not just for the safety of the

993
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,200
security, the prison it's also
to keep prisoners safe frankly.

994
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:34,200
Then he tells me He fears, he
has lost his Immortal Soul

995
00:55:34,900 --> 00:55:36,600
because he didn't kill the
girls.

996
00:55:38,500 --> 00:55:41,100
What?
Johnny bluest of blue, hell's.

997
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,400
Yes.
So John Cole Tharp apparently

998
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,400
left him with this instruction.
If you think you're going to be

999
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:52,600
caught, it is your obligation to
kill the girls rather than let

1000
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,500
them be captured or taken by the
authorities.

1001
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,400
Now, the only reason I can think
of that, John Colter would give

1002
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:05,900
such an insane instruction for
cold-blooded murder is because

1003
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:07,200
he was afraid of being
conference cry.

1004
00:56:07,300 --> 00:56:09,800
Times and he just heard a good
way to get rid of the evidence.

1005
00:56:11,700 --> 00:56:15,700
And so My Brother Sam says the
true prophet of God told me what

1006
00:56:15,700 --> 00:56:18,100
God commanded me to do and I
didn't do it.

1007
00:56:18,500 --> 00:56:20,100
He's like, I just couldn't I
just did.

1008
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:22,700
I wasn't courageous enough was
the way he thought about it.

1009
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,500
I wasn't brave enough to do what
God has commanded me to do.

1010
00:56:25,500 --> 00:56:29,400
And now I think I've lost my
soul because I can't obey

1011
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,600
because I couldn't obey now to
some extent at least that means

1012
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,100
he had enough Humanity that he
couldn't bring himself to do it.

1013
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:41,900
The thing that scares me is he
was armed and he was instructed.

1014
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,100
To commit that to murder the
girls.

1015
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,700
He just felt like, he just
couldn't do it.

1016
00:56:48,700 --> 00:56:50,600
He was.
He said, he felt he was too much

1017
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,800
of a coward and I think that
that's the one redeeming piece

1018
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:58,100
of humanity.
He has left, frankly, it's the

1019
00:56:58,100 --> 00:57:00,300
one thing I hope that he doesn't
give up on.

1020
00:57:00,900 --> 00:57:03,800
He may have confused weakness
with Humanity.

1021
00:57:04,100 --> 00:57:07,900
Oh, he definitely did right.
He conflated that last part that

1022
00:57:07,900 --> 00:57:10,100
was there saying you can't do
this.

1023
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:14,600
He had the one part left that
the one Lafferty didn't have

1024
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,400
when he killed the fish. 18,
month-old child, right?

1025
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:24,100
And And thank goodness.
He didn't he didn't he didn't

1026
00:57:24,100 --> 00:57:32,100
hurt anybody but The idea that
he thought he had to write and

1027
00:57:32,100 --> 00:57:35,400
then to find out from the police
after that conversation that I

1028
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,100
was on that hit list.
And my daughters were on the

1029
00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:44,900
rape list, essentially.
Was very chilling to find out.

1030
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:48,100
Yeah, you look the beast in the
face, I did.

1031
00:57:48,300 --> 00:57:51,300
And I'm sorry to say that, you
know, you look into those eyes

1032
00:57:51,300 --> 00:57:54,300
and you think you see somebody
you've known your whole life, I

1033
00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:57,300
was there at his birth, you
know, it's my my little brother.

1034
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:02,500
you think you know, somebody And
all I saw was.

1035
00:58:04,500 --> 00:58:08,700
A murderer, a psychopath someone
who'd completely lost all moral

1036
00:58:08,700 --> 00:58:15,700
sense and I kind of again, I
know I'm really good at

1037
00:58:15,700 --> 00:58:17,100
diffusing situations and
playing.

1038
00:58:17,100 --> 00:58:19,300
Nice.
I just told him, I wished him

1039
00:58:19,300 --> 00:58:24,100
well and walked out.
I handled it really cool part of

1040
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:27,900
me regrets that too because I
wanted to strangle him.

1041
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:31,500
I wanted to defend myself.
I want to defend my family.

1042
00:58:32,100 --> 00:58:37,800
He's the monster.
Paucity of it and what he was.

1043
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:42,400
And, of course, because I wasn't
firm with him, he then spent the

1044
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:47,900
next like, six months writing me
letters, which then I started

1045
00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:50,500
just throwing the trash without
reading being things.

1046
00:58:50,500 --> 00:58:53,300
Like, oh, but don't worry, you
can still be saved if you'll

1047
00:58:53,300 --> 00:58:57,000
support John Cole Tharp and we,
you know, God's talking to me in

1048
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:59,200
the prison and this is maybe
this is the way it's meant to

1049
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:02,600
be, but don't worry because soon
enough, we'll kill all the

1050
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:04,000
American powers that be well
over.

1051
00:59:04,300 --> 00:59:07,500
Or the government will all be
liberated by this you know,

1052
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:09,800
these terrible things that are
going to happen because we've

1053
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:13,700
seen it in Prophecy, you know.
And here he is promoting once

1054
00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:17,200
again additional and continuing
violence against the innocent.

1055
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,000
Okay.
Let me stop there because I want

1056
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:25,100
to pack some of this been,
because what was an academic

1057
00:59:25,100 --> 00:59:28,700
exercise just became pardon the
expression again, crap.

1058
00:59:28,700 --> 00:59:33,100
Just got real right first, let
me say this, it took a massive

1059
00:59:33,100 --> 00:59:36,200
amount of 42.
Attitude to tell that story.

1060
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,500
You should be commended on that
too.

1061
00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:46,300
And feel free to interject here
where you feel it's necessary.

1062
00:59:46,700 --> 00:59:51,400
But this idea that you failed
your brother, I don't buy that.

1063
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:58,800
And and let me tell you why this
was not yours alone to do true,

1064
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:00,300
but I have some
responsibilities.

1065
01:00:00,300 --> 01:00:06,500
You look, you do, but I'm going
to also say this Mormons in the

1066
01:00:06,500 --> 01:00:12,700
jet in a much wider context.
I believe, I feel have a much

1067
01:00:12,700 --> 01:00:16,700
greater responsibility in
defusing this crap before it

1068
01:00:16,700 --> 01:00:21,100
ever gets started.
If we don't do a certain amount

1069
01:00:21,100 --> 01:00:25,000
of policing within ourselves,
Right.

1070
01:00:25,000 --> 01:00:29,900
It's going to get it gets ugly.
Okay, let's just look back at

1071
01:00:29,900 --> 01:00:34,900
the flds situation when everyone
started noticing that Warren

1072
01:00:34,900 --> 01:00:40,500
Jeffs was going off the rails.
At that point.

1073
01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:44,800
The fundamentalist that were
guess mainstream mainstream

1074
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,500
fundamentalist, right?
The LDS church.

1075
01:00:46,500 --> 01:00:48,700
We should have been more vocal.
We should have been like, you

1076
01:00:48,707 --> 01:00:52,300
know, what theology damned for
right now, what will will fight

1077
01:00:52,300 --> 01:00:53,700
those battles later?
Her.

1078
01:00:53,700 --> 01:00:56,300
But right now, right now, we
should come together and you

1079
01:00:56,300 --> 01:01:00,000
should come together and condemn
what is going on in Colorado

1080
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:05,600
City, and we should do it with
as much peaceful veracity as we

1081
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,600
can, and make sure our voices
are hurt.

1082
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:12,100
Because I think that does two
things, right to those who are

1083
01:01:12,100 --> 01:01:15,300
oppressed and those who are in
danger, if they can see.

1084
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:18,700
Well, you know, I I may not
agree with their theology but

1085
01:01:18,700 --> 01:01:21,200
there's these people out here
who say they're Mormons to and,

1086
01:01:21,900 --> 01:01:25,100
and, and they're trying to help.
That at least gives an Avenue

1087
01:01:25,300 --> 01:01:27,400
where does and you know, when
you think about it with the,

1088
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:31,600
with Warren Jeffs and his
crimes, if all of the flds

1089
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,500
people had stood up together at
the same time, when he started

1090
01:01:33,500 --> 01:01:38,300
preaching that stuff over the
pulpit and said, no, look uncle

1091
01:01:38,300 --> 01:01:40,800
they call him uncle, look, Uncle
Warren.

1092
01:01:42,300 --> 01:01:44,700
As much as we love you, you're
wrong, right?

1093
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,200
If somebody had done that, then
it could have saved the whole

1094
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:50,800
Community because frankly more,
that way less than half the

1095
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:53,600
community still with him, right.
He destroyed their community so

1096
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,300
much that the vast majority of
people, if they stood up at the

1097
01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:01,700
same time would have absolutely
been able to stop him but they

1098
01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:04,200
all had to stand up one at a
time.

1099
01:02:05,300 --> 01:02:08,400
What is it that I want to say?
It's a Viktor Frankl.

1100
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,800
Maybe talked about how well they
came for the Socialists.

1101
01:02:11,900 --> 01:02:14,300
I didn't say anything.
As a socialist, the then the

1102
01:02:14,300 --> 01:02:18,200
Nazis came for anybody who was a
Jew, but I didn't speak up

1103
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,500
because I wasn't a Jew.
They came for everybody who was

1104
01:02:20,500 --> 01:02:22,600
a Mason, but I wasn't a Mason,
they came up for each of these

1105
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:24,700
groups and then they came for
me.

1106
01:02:24,700 --> 01:02:27,300
There was no one to stand up for
me to a certain extent.

1107
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:30,800
You know, you're have to put a
link to that little poem.

1108
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:36,300
Now on this on this post just
certain extent, that's the

1109
01:02:36,300 --> 01:02:38,100
problem.
You got to stand up together,

1110
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:41,600
right?
When you lock arms, you have so

1111
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:43,400
much Our.
It's like it's like a union

1112
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:47,500
versus one person getting fired.
One person can be fired just

1113
01:02:47,500 --> 01:02:51,600
because they're making true
allegations of sexual harassment

1114
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,800
or unfair treatment or or
dangerous work environment.

1115
01:02:54,900 --> 01:02:57,300
You know, one person can get up
and say, hey, this isn't right,

1116
01:02:57,300 --> 01:03:00,500
and then they just get fired and
then they abuse the next person

1117
01:03:00,500 --> 01:03:02,500
and the next person stands up
and says, hey this isn't right

1118
01:03:02,500 --> 01:03:05,300
and they get fired too, but if
all the employees link arms,

1119
01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:08,700
Then the employer has to clean
up their act.

1120
01:03:08,700 --> 01:03:10,800
It's the same kind of thing.
Like there's power in numbers,

1121
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:11,600
you know.
Right.

1122
01:03:12,100 --> 01:03:15,100
Having said that there has to be
there's oh it always starts with

1123
01:03:15,100 --> 01:03:17,200
one.
It takes a catalyst right now.

1124
01:03:18,100 --> 01:03:21,300
I'm a firm believer in Courage
is contagious.

1125
01:03:21,500 --> 01:03:24,500
Hmm.
And so I think it and and I

1126
01:03:24,500 --> 01:03:27,300
think this Harkens back to what
we were talking about last

1127
01:03:27,300 --> 01:03:29,800
Sunday.
If you guys ever want to come, I

1128
01:03:29,808 --> 01:03:31,300
can tell you where to go just
saying.

1129
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:36,100
Um but but what we were talking
about last Sunday Day.

1130
01:03:36,300 --> 01:03:39,600
At some point, we have to make
the decisions.

1131
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,400
Every one of us, what are we
going to do in those

1132
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,100
uncomfortable situations?
I think back to the classes.

1133
01:03:45,100 --> 01:03:49,600
I took for my concealed carry
permit, my instructor was very

1134
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,200
good about saying, where's your
red line?

1135
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:55,500
Where's your red line?
Because if you wait until the

1136
01:03:55,500 --> 01:03:59,900
moment you want, don't know what
your red wine is, right?

1137
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,000
So at what moment and these are
uncomfortable thought exercises

1138
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,900
to do, but they put out to be
done so that in that.

1139
01:04:06,100 --> 01:04:10,900
Moment, maybe it's you that
starts to spread that quote

1140
01:04:10,900 --> 01:04:15,800
virus of of Courage, right?
You're a patient zero, right?

1141
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:17,700
And and I guess that's the
reason to why you have to think

1142
01:04:17,700 --> 01:04:20,700
of it through ahead of time if
you don't decide.

1143
01:04:20,700 --> 01:04:23,700
Now, when it's merely a thought
experiment, when you're going to

1144
01:04:23,700 --> 01:04:28,300
call the cops, when you're going
to call CPS, then as it sneaks

1145
01:04:28,300 --> 01:04:32,300
up on you like it did on me.
It's just so easy to put off

1146
01:04:33,100 --> 01:04:36,600
because it's like, where is the
line?

1147
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,400
Maybe the line should be a
little further down the road

1148
01:04:38,400 --> 01:04:41,000
because I'm not comfortable with
the, with as difficult as this

1149
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,000
going to be the cross.
I want to put this into a much

1150
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,300
less dangerous context, but very
true.

1151
01:04:46,300 --> 01:04:52,700
One thinking about the BYU Honor
Code thinking about whether or

1152
01:04:52,700 --> 01:04:55,300
not to tattle when you're at
camp with your buddies and

1153
01:04:55,300 --> 01:04:56,400
they're doing something
dangerous.

1154
01:04:57,700 --> 01:05:01,200
Oftentimes, one of the reasons
why this is messy.

1155
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,800
Because you don't want the
scrutiny on yourself either your

1156
01:05:05,900 --> 01:05:09,700
you're not like guilty of doing
anything really bad but you're

1157
01:05:09,707 --> 01:05:13,000
not ready to face the Fallout of
having been so close to

1158
01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:17,700
something, right.
Right in a lot of cases say the

1159
01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:22,900
BYU Honor Code or being a tattle
being at snitches get stitches

1160
01:05:22,900 --> 01:05:25,100
they say, right?
Because they want to intimidate

1161
01:05:25,100 --> 01:05:27,900
you into not saying anything
when your friends start doing

1162
01:05:27,900 --> 01:05:32,000
drugs or your friends start
doing something dangerous.

1163
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:34,000
Regularly.
You don't want to be the party

1164
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,100
pooper and you know, that if you
report to an authority, they're

1165
01:05:38,100 --> 01:05:40,500
going to know that you've
already gotten yourself in

1166
01:05:40,500 --> 01:05:43,400
knee-deep.
Maybe not neck deep and you can

1167
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:45,500
see your friends are heading
toward neck-deep in the skit and

1168
01:05:45,500 --> 01:05:48,100
dangerous.
But you're in knee-deep, you got

1169
01:05:48,100 --> 01:05:51,700
drunk or you committed some
dangerous actor.

1170
01:05:51,700 --> 01:05:53,900
You covered up for somebody in
the past and it's all going to

1171
01:05:53,900 --> 01:05:55,900
come unraveled.
The moment you report.

1172
01:05:55,900 --> 01:06:00,700
This, that makes it really hard
to speak up and I really need to

1173
01:06:00,700 --> 01:06:03,500
speak up for Mormon
fundamentalist in general to

1174
01:06:03,500 --> 01:06:05,600
because let's face it.
There is.

1175
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:10,900
So there is still very real,
very dangerous prejudice against

1176
01:06:10,900 --> 01:06:15,600
Mormon fundamentalist
communities, the yearning for

1177
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:19,300
Zion Ranch rate in Texas, for
example, okay, there were crimes

1178
01:06:19,300 --> 01:06:23,400
being committed there, but none
of those were associated with

1179
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:25,400
the probable cause or the
warrant that sent them in.

1180
01:06:26,300 --> 01:06:30,100
And don't forget when they went
in, they brought artillery they

1181
01:06:30,100 --> 01:06:34,300
brought military weapons.
Because they were ready for mass

1182
01:06:34,300 --> 01:06:36,800
murder.
Well, wake the Texas coast?

1183
01:06:36,900 --> 01:06:41,200
Yes via Texas authorities were
ready to murder every man, woman

1184
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,900
child baby didn't matter who got
in their way when they went into

1185
01:06:44,900 --> 01:06:47,700
the Ranch in Texas.
Now, I'm not justifying, Warren

1186
01:06:47,700 --> 01:06:49,500
Jeffs, he was committing serious
crimes.

1187
01:06:49,900 --> 01:06:52,800
Some of his associates were also
coming very serious crimes.

1188
01:06:53,100 --> 01:06:55,400
There were some really evil
stuff that, that, that rate

1189
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:58,500
uncovered, but you know what?
You know what caused the raid

1190
01:06:59,300 --> 01:07:01,600
Nothing.
But some of the blindest and

1191
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:05,000
most stupid Prejudice imaginable
which should never have been

1192
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:07,600
acceptable for a warrant and
never should have been

1193
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:11,200
acceptable.
Legally, a woman who had read

1194
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:15,000
under the banner of heaven and
thought the flds must be bad.

1195
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:18,900
People who lived in Oregon had a
never even met a Mormon

1196
01:07:18,900 --> 01:07:24,200
fundamentalist in her life.
Called up the Texas authorities

1197
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,700
on the phone said she wanted to
remain anonymous but that her

1198
01:07:27,700 --> 01:07:30,100
name was Rachel Barlow because
she knew that that was a very

1199
01:07:30,100 --> 01:07:34,000
common name in the community.
So that's believable that her

1200
01:07:34,000 --> 01:07:36,900
name was Rachel Barlow and that
she was 16 years old, and she

1201
01:07:36,900 --> 01:07:39,000
was being forced to marry an old
polygamist man.

1202
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:41,700
That's that's, that's what it
was.

1203
01:07:41,700 --> 01:07:44,900
It was that phone call?
She had no knowledge of actual

1204
01:07:44,900 --> 01:07:46,500
Mormonism.
She had no knowledge of actual

1205
01:07:46,500 --> 01:07:48,800
Mormon fundamentalism.
She had no connection to the

1206
01:07:48,808 --> 01:07:50,700
community at all.
She was like a 34 year.

1207
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:53,200
Old woman who read under the
banner of Heaven in Oregon.

1208
01:07:53,300 --> 01:07:56,400
That's what launched, that's
what launched a genocide, a

1209
01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:00,400
level raid against an entire
community and don't forget every

1210
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:05,000
one of those innocent mothers
had their children, their babies

1211
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,600
torn from their arms.
And the Texas authorities said

1212
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:12,300
that it was their objective to
eradicate the disease of Mormon

1213
01:08:12,300 --> 01:08:14,400
fundamentalism.
They wanted to commit genocide

1214
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:18,100
essentially against the entire
culture and the entire religion

1215
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:20,899
and they didn't care what the
Fallout was.

1216
01:08:21,100 --> 01:08:24,300
It wasn't until some, you know,
reasonable and wise, judges.

1217
01:08:24,300 --> 01:08:27,300
And this is why I do have some
faith in the judicial system

1218
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:29,300
still as a lawyer.
I still think there's some real

1219
01:08:29,300 --> 01:08:31,899
redeeming qualities in here.
He, you know, they started

1220
01:08:31,899 --> 01:08:34,000
bringing up this actual evidence
starting to look at.

1221
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,000
How are we going to place these
children in non-mormon family?

1222
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:39,600
So that we can eradicate this
Mormonism from our community.

1223
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:40,800
We need to eradicate the
religion.

1224
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:42,899
So in order to do that, we have
to re-educate all these

1225
01:08:42,899 --> 01:08:45,100
children.
So they were that was literally,

1226
01:08:45,100 --> 01:08:48,300
their whole organ design.
And a judge said, wait a second,

1227
01:08:48,300 --> 01:08:50,700
what cause do you have to assume
that there's any crime has been

1228
01:08:50,700 --> 01:08:53,000
committed?
In this family and they kept

1229
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:54,899
saying, we don't have anything,
we don't have anything.

1230
01:08:55,100 --> 01:08:59,000
Essentially, that was met legal
muster and so the judge ordered.

1231
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:00,800
No, you have to let the women
and children go.

1232
01:09:01,500 --> 01:09:03,300
You can only continue to hold
people.

1233
01:09:03,300 --> 01:09:05,800
If you have some probable cause
of a crime now, did they find

1234
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,200
crimes there in Texas?
Yes, they did because Warren

1235
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:11,100
Jeffs has committed some very
heinous crimes and that's where

1236
01:09:11,700 --> 01:09:15,399
fortunately for, you know,
criminals are so dumb.

1237
01:09:15,500 --> 01:09:16,600
I mean, I can't get over this
one.

1238
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,399
I'm doing criminal defense.
I can't tell you how often

1239
01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:22,700
criminals are so dumb.
But Warren Jeffs is dumb

1240
01:09:22,700 --> 01:09:25,600
criminal.
He basically recorded in detail

1241
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:29,100
all of his crimes, right?
And then left records of all of

1242
01:09:29,108 --> 01:09:31,399
his wonderful crimes because
apparently was proud of them.

1243
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:33,500
It's the same thing with my
brother and John Colter

1244
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:35,399
honestly.
He spilled his guts to the

1245
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:38,399
police, told him everything.
And on top of that, they wrote

1246
01:09:38,399 --> 01:09:40,800
it all in a book and handed it
to the cops.

1247
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:43,500
Right?
So you know, there was there's

1248
01:09:43,500 --> 01:09:46,100
no defense for that sort of
thing, but what's my point?

1249
01:09:46,100 --> 01:09:52,200
My point is is that fear?
A very real, very serious

1250
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:54,700
consequences especially the
moment found a mouse committee

1251
01:09:54,700 --> 01:09:58,900
is not unfounded.
Know it look let's face it.

1252
01:09:59,100 --> 01:10:03,300
The the reason that Warren Jeffs
could do what he did was because

1253
01:10:03,300 --> 01:10:08,200
of the short Creek grade, right?
Thus the 1953 short Creek raid,

1254
01:10:08,300 --> 01:10:10,600
basically taught that entire
Community, you are not Citizens

1255
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:14,200
United States, you have no
rights and you should fear them

1256
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,200
because they will destroy you
and they will hurt your family.

1257
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:21,700
This is part of the problem.
When when you, you for something

1258
01:10:21,700 --> 01:10:24,300
like, Plural.
Marriage.

1259
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:26,100
You know, someone's lifestyle
choices.

1260
01:10:26,100 --> 01:10:29,000
Look, obviously I'm a Mormon
fundamentalist.

1261
01:10:30,300 --> 01:10:36,000
I'm not super sympathetic in
terms of the homosexual

1262
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:39,000
lifestyle.
Having said that that is your

1263
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:42,300
right to practice if you so deem
fit and you shouldn't be forced

1264
01:10:42,300 --> 01:10:44,700
to live in the shadows for it,
right?

1265
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,700
Be right.
Or or legally harassed because

1266
01:10:47,700 --> 01:10:50,500
because bad things happen when
you force people into the

1267
01:10:50,500 --> 01:10:58,300
shadows and we saw that with Um,
with Excuse me prohibition, we

1268
01:10:58,300 --> 01:11:01,300
saw that every time.
We go that direction well and

1269
01:11:01,300 --> 01:11:03,400
especially any time there's
prejudice against any minority,

1270
01:11:03,500 --> 01:11:06,100
right?
Right, Prejudice.

1271
01:11:06,100 --> 01:11:11,000
Anti-semitic Prejudice, even
just apartheid or segregation.

1272
01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:12,900
What happens?
You separate those communities

1273
01:11:12,900 --> 01:11:17,100
out and then you other them.
They're not one of us.

1274
01:11:17,100 --> 01:11:20,600
They do not deserving of Rights
and then, and then you can

1275
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:22,800
harass them.
You can harm them with.

1276
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:26,200
Impunity, right, and right now
to this day, Mormon

1277
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:29,500
fundamentalists are other
especially in the state of Utah.

1278
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:35,000
And so people aren't concerned
if if you are targeted or

1279
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:39,800
harassed or harmed people assume
that you deserved it because of

1280
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:43,100
that prejudice, right?
And it's greatly to my lack of

1281
01:11:43,100 --> 01:11:45,600
intelligence that I decided to
do a podcast.

1282
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:48,700
All right, I just came out well
and that's one of the one of my

1283
01:11:48,700 --> 01:11:51,900
problems to write being a very
open, Mormon Fundamentalist.

1284
01:11:53,500 --> 01:11:55,700
It puts a Target on my back.
Is it with certain individuals?

1285
01:11:55,700 --> 01:11:57,400
Absolutely.
However, there is something to

1286
01:11:57,407 --> 01:12:00,700
be said, it's a little tougher,
take someone out in the light,

1287
01:12:01,100 --> 01:12:02,200
right?
It right.

1288
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:07,000
If you, you know, there are some
safety in the sunlight there is

1289
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:08,600
in fact, and that's why they say
sometimes the greatest

1290
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,100
disinfectant because it stops a
lot of this bad stuff from

1291
01:12:11,100 --> 01:12:13,400
happening.
So, but my broader point, my

1292
01:12:13,400 --> 01:12:16,100
daughter point is my broader
point is, it doesn't matter.

1293
01:12:16,100 --> 01:12:19,500
Even if your flds there, still
needs to be a red line where you

1294
01:12:19,500 --> 01:12:22,800
say I'm calling the cops even
though I don't trust them.

1295
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:27,200
For example, I said earlier, I
don't trust the Child Protective

1296
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:29,800
Services of Utah.
They do not follow, even their

1297
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:32,400
own rules, whenever Prejudice
gets in the way and they're

1298
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:35,300
prejudiced organization,
especially against weren't

1299
01:12:35,300 --> 01:12:38,800
fundamentalist, but I still wish
I called them.

1300
01:12:40,100 --> 01:12:42,600
I still wish I'd called them
because they're not, they're not

1301
01:12:42,600 --> 01:12:46,500
fundamentally evil, they have
misconceptions.

1302
01:12:46,500 --> 01:12:48,100
Some of them are very poorly
trained.

1303
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:51,000
Some of them are just plain
overworked, so sometimes they'll

1304
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:52,700
make bad decisions because it's
the Heat of the Moment.

1305
01:12:52,700 --> 01:12:54,500
They just got to think they got
to do what they got to do.

1306
01:12:55,300 --> 01:12:59,700
But Even then somethings better
than nothing.

1307
01:12:59,700 --> 01:13:02,900
And even if it brings scrutiny
to me, like, one of the things

1308
01:13:02,900 --> 01:13:04,700
that I'm worried about is
because of that, prejudice, I

1309
01:13:04,708 --> 01:13:07,500
was afraid that they were going
to investigate and harass my

1310
01:13:07,500 --> 01:13:11,400
family, just because we pointed
them the direction of my

1311
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:14,400
brother's family, right?
Because if there is something

1312
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:17,000
wrong and his family, we would
have hoped that we would have

1313
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:20,400
had the opportunity to bring my
niece's.

1314
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:23,200
Into one of our family's, my
family, my sister's family.

1315
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:25,800
One of us should have been on
the list at least.

1316
01:13:26,500 --> 01:13:30,200
For taking custody of her own
family members, if he's an unfit

1317
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:33,400
parent, well, we didn't know how
unfit, but even then shouldn't

1318
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,900
we have been consulted and that
is their policy that people

1319
01:13:36,900 --> 01:13:40,400
should be placed with family
unless they're prejudiced

1320
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:42,500
against that family's lifestyle
or something.

1321
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:46,900
And sure enough, because my
brother Sam was spouting this,

1322
01:13:46,900 --> 01:13:52,000
you know, insane delusional, but
religious rhetoric, CPS cut us

1323
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:54,400
out completely when that
happened.

1324
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:56,400
They never, they never
interviewed anyone.

1325
01:13:56,600 --> 01:13:58,500
Us.
They never talk show any of us.

1326
01:13:58,900 --> 01:14:04,700
They stonewalled us at every
possible turn everyone didn't

1327
01:14:04,700 --> 01:14:06,200
matter.
If they were mainstream LDS,

1328
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,400
like my mother, who as their
grandmother would have been a

1329
01:14:09,500 --> 01:14:11,900
very reasonable choice, to take
care of her own grandchildren.

1330
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:15,800
They would not even return our
phone calls that wouldn't take

1331
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:17,100
let they wouldn't open her
letters.

1332
01:14:17,100 --> 01:14:20,100
They had nothing to do with her
because of Sam's rhetoric.

1333
01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:24,800
They just assumed, oh, he's one
of the others because because

1334
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:29,000
Sam is involved in some kind of
Quasi-religious craziness and of

1335
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:30,800
course, don't forget.
This is Southern Utah where

1336
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:33,400
there's a huge amount of
prejudice against the flds.

1337
01:14:33,700 --> 01:14:36,800
They're just lumping them all
into one thing and assuming that

1338
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,500
that means they don't deserve
the regular legal rights that

1339
01:14:39,500 --> 01:14:41,600
other people have.
And so, they absolutely violated

1340
01:14:41,600 --> 01:14:46,300
all their own policies and cut
us out completely, and then they

1341
01:14:46,300 --> 01:14:48,700
did what the other thing too,
which is that they want to make

1342
01:14:48,700 --> 01:14:53,300
sure that any kid who comes out
of that other group gets

1343
01:14:53,300 --> 01:14:56,400
re-educated into the in-group,
right?

1344
01:14:56,500 --> 01:14:59,700
Right.
And so my niece is, for example,

1345
01:14:59,700 --> 01:15:02,400
if you're, if you're worried
about them, for my story are

1346
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:04,100
actually in a pretty good
situation now.

1347
01:15:05,500 --> 01:15:11,400
But It reinforces all of these
problems and themes because the

1348
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:16,500
whole point was these, these
social workers had decided that

1349
01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:20,500
this good LDS Family deserved
more children, and they had

1350
01:15:20,500 --> 01:15:23,400
already decided that the next
couple of children that came up

1351
01:15:23,400 --> 01:15:26,800
as being available which, of
course, they decide what

1352
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:28,100
children available?
We're going to go to that

1353
01:15:28,100 --> 01:15:30,400
family, they just made that
decision before they even knew.

1354
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:34,200
My Brother Sam had moved into
the county, they had already

1355
01:15:34,700 --> 01:15:38,000
prejudged, which is the root
term of prejudice.

1356
01:15:38,700 --> 01:15:41,400
That as soon as they could get
children out from an other

1357
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:44,100
group, they were going to give
them to this in group person.

1358
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:47,900
Now, that, that in group family,
I don't blame them individually,

1359
01:15:48,700 --> 01:15:53,100
but here's the crazy thing, my
brother and John Cole Tharp are

1360
01:15:53,100 --> 01:15:57,200
in prison for kidnapping.
What?

1361
01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:59,900
It's CPS do?
How is that functionally

1362
01:15:59,900 --> 01:16:01,600
different in any way than
kidnapping?

1363
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,700
They had a premeditated plan
about how they were going to

1364
01:16:04,700 --> 01:16:07,800
take children from one culture
or society, and put them in

1365
01:16:07,800 --> 01:16:10,400
another and re-educate them and
exactly where they were going to

1366
01:16:10,407 --> 01:16:11,400
go and what they're gonna do
with them.

1367
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:14,600
And then they seized them by
force and delivered them to

1368
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:17,000
their their purposes.
Now, don't get me wrong.

1369
01:16:17,100 --> 01:16:19,000
People say, well, that can't
exactly be kidnapping because

1370
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:22,700
their motives weren't weren't
bad motives, and that's why I,

1371
01:16:22,700 --> 01:16:24,300
this is one of the reasons why I
think we need to re-examine

1372
01:16:24,300 --> 01:16:25,500
ourselves.
I don't want to call bullshit on

1373
01:16:25,500 --> 01:16:29,100
that, I don't.
What your justifications are

1374
01:16:29,700 --> 01:16:35,300
violence, is wrong, I don't care
what excuse, you're going to use

1375
01:16:35,300 --> 01:16:38,000
or law.
You might try to hide behind or

1376
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:39,900
profit.
You might try to hide behind.

1377
01:16:40,400 --> 01:16:43,700
If you are using some kind of
rules or instructions or

1378
01:16:43,700 --> 01:16:46,100
something, to abdicate, your
personal moral responsibility,

1379
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:49,900
and do violence to another
person or family that's evil.

1380
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:53,000
And it needs to be called out no
matter where it's found.

1381
01:16:53,100 --> 01:16:57,500
If it's found in a church or a
government or the policies of

1382
01:16:57,500 --> 01:16:59,400
your employer, it doesn't
matter.

1383
01:16:59,700 --> 01:17:02,100
You have to say we all have to
stand up and hold up your hand

1384
01:17:02,100 --> 01:17:05,500
and say, no, I will not
participate in a system of

1385
01:17:05,500 --> 01:17:10,700
violence. it reminds me of one
of the things I was asked when I

1386
01:17:10,700 --> 01:17:18,100
was asked online recently just
yesterday about About my brother

1387
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,000
is one of the reasons I wanted
to talk about on the podcast

1388
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:26,400
because he said two people one
person said, well, how can you

1389
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:28,400
talk about standing up against
this kind of evil?

1390
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:29,800
What did you stand up to your
brother?

1391
01:17:30,700 --> 01:17:34,000
And it's like I tried I did but
I didn't do it strongly enough

1392
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:39,000
and for that I'm sorry.
But another person said well,

1393
01:17:39,200 --> 01:17:40,700
well you can't always talk that
way.

1394
01:17:41,300 --> 01:17:44,000
What about Abraham God?
Commanded Abraham to offer his

1395
01:17:44,000 --> 01:17:44,500
son.
Isaac?

1396
01:17:44,500 --> 01:17:46,500
Would you would you have opposed
to the prophet?

1397
01:17:47,900 --> 01:17:51,200
Today.
And I'm like, yes, yes, I would.

1398
01:17:52,500 --> 01:17:54,500
Because we identify ourselves
wrongly.

1399
01:17:54,900 --> 01:17:56,200
This is the problem with other
ring.

1400
01:17:56,400 --> 01:18:01,000
The other group that US versus
them, that the them group, we

1401
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:04,700
miss identify these scriptural
stories, and how the lesson were

1402
01:18:04,700 --> 01:18:07,300
supposed to take from them
because we miss identify, who we

1403
01:18:07,300 --> 01:18:10,700
are supposed to be in that story
in the story of Abraham

1404
01:18:10,700 --> 01:18:15,100
offering, his son, Isaac.
We get taught in, like, for

1405
01:18:15,100 --> 01:18:18,900
example, in LDS curriculum that
we should contemplate that

1406
01:18:18,900 --> 01:18:21,700
story.
And most of the discussion goes

1407
01:18:21,700 --> 01:18:23,000
that we should Don't believe
that story.

1408
01:18:23,100 --> 01:18:26,000
Are you willing to obey God?
In all things is the lesson were

1409
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:27,900
supposed to take from the story.
I don't think that's less than

1410
01:18:27,900 --> 01:18:29,000
were supposed to take from the
story.

1411
01:18:29,600 --> 01:18:31,500
I think lesson was supposed to
take from the story is you

1412
01:18:31,500 --> 01:18:35,800
should be like the angel who had
more knowledge than Abraham.

1413
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:39,100
You should be like the angel and
you should be able to willing to

1414
01:18:39,100 --> 01:18:42,900
stand up right in front of the
prophet of God and say no you're

1415
01:18:42,900 --> 01:18:44,800
wrong.
Stop what you're doing right

1416
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:48,400
now.
It doesn't matter that Abraham,

1417
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:51,100
had some kind of authority.
The angel was the one who was in

1418
01:18:51,108 --> 01:18:54,300
the right there.
And we need to have that kind of

1419
01:18:54,300 --> 01:18:57,400
Courage, even if there's fall
out, right?

1420
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:00,700
And it's hard, it's hard to say
to your church, you're wrong.

1421
01:19:01,000 --> 01:19:02,500
I'm sorry.
But you're just wrong about this

1422
01:19:02,500 --> 01:19:05,600
and I won't put up with it
anymore especially because we're

1423
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:09,300
taught so much about obedience
and in a Mormon cultural

1424
01:19:09,300 --> 01:19:12,000
mindset.
And a lot of that comes from the

1425
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:15,400
way that we circled our wagons
and tried to break a very harsh

1426
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:18,200
desert in like it while some is
the rose and build this, you

1427
01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:21,200
talk Kingdom out here we needed
each other.

1428
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:22,600
We needed a strong sense of
community.

1429
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:26,000
The problem is, you can have a
community without abdicating.

1430
01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:29,300
Your moral responsibility to
many people got lazy, didn't

1431
01:19:29,300 --> 01:19:33,300
exercise their moral muscle and
just thought I just do what I'm

1432
01:19:33,300 --> 01:19:35,200
told.
You do that for a few

1433
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:39,300
generations and people lose the
moral strength that it takes to

1434
01:19:39,300 --> 01:19:43,200
stand up and say no and not only
that, I believe Joseph Smith

1435
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:45,800
said that one of the major
faults with the children of

1436
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:49,500
Israel is that they didn't want
to meet the Lord face to face.

1437
01:19:49,500 --> 01:19:52,700
They wanted to have Moses there.
They were more.

1438
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:57,200
And willing to abdicate that
moral responsibility all the way

1439
01:19:57,200 --> 01:19:58,500
back.
Then closes.

1440
01:19:58,500 --> 01:20:02,300
This is a very human problem.
This is the see play out over

1441
01:20:02,300 --> 01:20:05,900
and over.
Sometimes it results in very

1442
01:20:05,900 --> 01:20:08,200
very dark things like we see
with.

1443
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:10,200
The Lafferty's are things that
happen to your brother.

1444
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:13,800
Other times we see it with God
and a sense of frustration.

1445
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:20,000
Like I want you with me right?
And now and I think we should

1446
01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:22,600
preface this, we all three of us
belong to a church.

1447
01:20:22,700 --> 01:20:26,800
Church where we recognize that
and sustained.

1448
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:28,600
Prophetic Authority.
Prophetic Authority.

1449
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:33,300
Oh yes, but I'll say this.
Nowhere in that in my times and

1450
01:20:33,300 --> 01:20:37,300
hearing that man speak.
Have I ever once heard him say?

1451
01:20:38,500 --> 01:20:42,900
Just trust me.
No, it never write a sense of

1452
01:20:42,900 --> 01:20:45,000
what that, that can be a
difference between our church

1453
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:46,900
and other churches, do because I
have heard that in plenty of

1454
01:20:46,900 --> 01:20:50,400
other Mormon sects, right?
Right.

1455
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:52,800
Yeah.
I mean, so so, yeah.

1456
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:57,000
And I remember one talk, he did
get was the first time I was

1457
01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:02,000
there, where he said, so if you
all could be prophets, right?

1458
01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:04,400
If you could.
So, you know, it's a meaningful

1459
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:05,600
memory for me.
Even though I don't remember

1460
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,900
what the deal was.
He was really Excited about the

1461
01:21:08,900 --> 01:21:10,100
gospel principle in one of his
talks.

1462
01:21:10,100 --> 01:21:12,400
This is five years ago or some
before.

1463
01:21:12,400 --> 01:21:13,900
Either of you were members of
Christ's Church.

1464
01:21:13,900 --> 01:21:17,000
Actually is like five years ago.
It was in a solemn assembly

1465
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:23,900
meeting there and he was he
overstated something.

1466
01:21:24,300 --> 01:21:26,900
And I was looking at the
dangerous implications of

1467
01:21:26,900 --> 01:21:31,800
overstating, something And I
raised my hand and I said to the

1468
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,000
prophet in the middle of his
speech, because we do that, by

1469
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,300
the way, in Christchurch, you
can raise your hand and make a

1470
01:21:37,300 --> 01:21:39,400
discussion.
So in the middle of conference

1471
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:42,100
or solemn assembly, basically, I
interrupted the speaker who was

1472
01:21:42,100 --> 01:21:46,400
the prophet and said, you took
that too far, you got to roll

1473
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:49,300
back in against those dangerous
implications of taking something

1474
01:21:49,300 --> 01:21:52,600
gospel principles outside, the
bounds of where they fit.

1475
01:21:55,200 --> 01:21:58,500
Instead of being excommunicated
or shouted down like boo, you're

1476
01:21:58,500 --> 01:21:59,900
not sustaining the prophet,
right?

1477
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:02,100
It was so meaningful to me that
he said.

1478
01:22:02,100 --> 01:22:05,800
Thank you brother Benjamin
that's helpful and then he

1479
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:08,400
restated and he got back on
track with his talk and it

1480
01:22:08,400 --> 01:22:12,000
wasn't a big problem.
But that memory means a ton to

1481
01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:16,800
me because I was raised in the
mainstream LDS church, I'm, I'm

1482
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:19,900
pretty much as mainstream as
they come for my whole

1483
01:22:19,900 --> 01:22:23,300
upbringing so I'm very familiar.
I never would have dared do that

1484
01:22:23,300 --> 01:22:27,100
in general conference.
Sorry, brother, Ross, you're

1485
01:22:27,100 --> 01:22:30,100
wrong about that.
You know, he goes by Rusty idea.

1486
01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:32,500
Rusty could be wrong.
Yeah some anyway.

1487
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:35,900
Yeah no I mean even if you just
called him called him Rusty.

1488
01:22:35,900 --> 01:22:38,700
It'd be like blasphemy, you
know, you can't even just call

1489
01:22:38,700 --> 01:22:42,100
him Russell Nelson.
You have to use the Russell and

1490
01:22:42,100 --> 01:22:46,500
- right, right, as a all of the
honorifics and stuff like that,

1491
01:22:46,500 --> 01:22:49,000
that we do all the hero worship
that goes into that gnarliest

1492
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,800
culture.
It's such a relief to kind of

1493
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:53,300
feel that I've broken free of
that.

1494
01:22:53,300 --> 01:22:58,200
And I but that I think is one of
the first steps to to taking

1495
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,500
back your moral agency and this
is this is really something.

1496
01:23:01,500 --> 01:23:05,000
I think that everybody has to do
at some point to truly be an

1497
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:07,700
adult.
When you're a child, you're used

1498
01:23:07,700 --> 01:23:09,500
to.
Obedience just means I do what

1499
01:23:09,500 --> 01:23:11,400
I'm told.
But at a certain point,

1500
01:23:11,400 --> 01:23:15,600
adulthood means I'm doing what I
know is, right.

1501
01:23:16,800 --> 01:23:20,300
And to make that shift from I
do, what I'm told to, I do, what

1502
01:23:20,300 --> 01:23:24,300
I know is, right.
You have to take back some of

1503
01:23:24,300 --> 01:23:25,400
your own power.
I think this is one of the

1504
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:27,800
reasons why even though
sometimes they're responsible

1505
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:31,000
teenagers have to, they have to
repeal a little.

1506
01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:34,300
Well, yeah, and they have,
because they have to be their

1507
01:23:34,300 --> 01:23:35,900
own person.
They have to be able to say, no,

1508
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:40,200
I have control over myself.
I'm not just an extension of my

1509
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:45,400
parents.
I am a person who has, who has

1510
01:23:45,400 --> 01:23:48,800
their own choices to make and
and so hopefully, you don't make

1511
01:23:48,800 --> 01:23:51,500
too many really bad choices when
you're just trying to figure out

1512
01:23:51,500 --> 01:23:53,000
how to make choices.
You've got to learn to make

1513
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:56,600
choices to be an adult.
And, and I felt like when I came

1514
01:23:56,600 --> 01:24:00,500
in to Christchurch, it really
broke that spell for me for the

1515
01:24:00,500 --> 01:24:04,200
first time, really in my life
before that, I was a

1516
01:24:04,208 --> 01:24:07,900
mainstreamer 110%.
And I was absolutely ready.

1517
01:24:08,200 --> 01:24:10,200
And this is why it can be a
dangerous thing.

1518
01:24:10,300 --> 01:24:12,700
Sorry, krakauer for giving you
such a hard time, John.

1519
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:17,000
But, but Jon krakauer basically
said this is this is his main

1520
01:24:17,000 --> 01:24:19,500
thesis as to why he thinks
Mormonism breeds breeds

1521
01:24:19,500 --> 01:24:21,900
dangerous.
Men was his phrase in other

1522
01:24:21,900 --> 01:24:23,600
words.
Makes us more dangerous.

1523
01:24:24,300 --> 01:24:28,600
Really was about, I believe,
from from what I read, is that,

1524
01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:31,300
I believe, what he really means
is anyone who's abdicated, the

1525
01:24:31,300 --> 01:24:33,800
moral responsibility to an
authority figure, right?

1526
01:24:33,800 --> 01:24:36,800
Is capable of great evil.
You know what the most common,

1527
01:24:38,100 --> 01:24:40,300
most common complaints, most
common defense, during the

1528
01:24:40,308 --> 01:24:43,400
Nuremberg trials and things like
that was always in order just

1529
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:45,400
following orders.
It's not my fault.

1530
01:24:45,700 --> 01:24:47,700
If you look at the Milgram
experiment for example,

1531
01:24:47,700 --> 01:24:48,900
everybody show shock.
Mm-hmm.

1532
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:51,300
Yep.
They shocked people and things

1533
01:24:51,300 --> 01:24:55,500
like that.
People who most people, the

1534
01:24:55,500 --> 01:24:59,800
majority of people would commit
heinous atrocities because they

1535
01:24:59,800 --> 01:25:02,000
felt that they were commanded to
by an authority.

1536
01:25:02,000 --> 01:25:07,000
And so they didn't realize that
they have personal agency in

1537
01:25:07,000 --> 01:25:10,600
that situation and it was
reading the Milgram experiments.

1538
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:14,200
It was reading an excellent book
by Jacob Newman.

1539
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:16,900
He's a yeah.
Forgive me politically, this

1540
01:25:16,900 --> 01:25:21,400
isn't a political comment but
he's a UC Berkeley but he is.

1541
01:25:22,900 --> 01:25:25,100
The commies.
The commies at UC Berkeley but

1542
01:25:25,100 --> 01:25:27,100
anyways, he's not he's not a
political scientist.

1543
01:25:27,100 --> 01:25:29,500
There he is.
A philosopher, he wrote a book

1544
01:25:29,500 --> 01:25:33,000
called, why can't we be good?
And it was a, it was an

1545
01:25:33,000 --> 01:25:36,500
examination of not just the pure
philosophy of reason of what is

1546
01:25:36,500 --> 01:25:38,700
good and evil.
But why is it that so often?

1547
01:25:38,700 --> 01:25:40,400
We fail to live up to our own
ideals?

1548
01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:43,600
Most human beings never live up
to their own ideals and why is

1549
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:44,500
that?
Right?

1550
01:25:44,500 --> 01:25:47,200
So, anyways, I read some of
those books and it really made

1551
01:25:47,200 --> 01:25:51,100
me think.
No, I have to I have to exercise

1552
01:25:51,100 --> 01:25:55,300
this muscle.
That I have a choice in all

1553
01:25:55,308 --> 01:25:58,900
these situations.
When someone comes into church

1554
01:25:58,900 --> 01:26:02,600
like John Colter opted to be
disruptive and to say violent

1555
01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:09,000
rhetoric.
It was easier at first to just

1556
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,400
kind of abdicate that more
responsible, moral

1557
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:12,500
responsibility to do anything
about it.

1558
01:26:12,500 --> 01:26:14,800
Because it's like, look, he's
just a weirdo.

1559
01:26:15,700 --> 01:26:17,100
He can go his way.
I'll go mine.

1560
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:22,900
It's not my problem or we can
agree to disagree kind of thing

1561
01:26:23,100 --> 01:26:25,600
and there's there's room for
compromise in a lot of our

1562
01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:27,700
discourse that we need to.
There's a lot of place in our

1563
01:26:27,708 --> 01:26:30,100
discourse where we should
compromise more, but I've

1564
01:26:30,100 --> 01:26:33,600
realized when you're dealing
with the types of false

1565
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:38,300
doctrines that lead to violence,
I no longer believe that we can

1566
01:26:38,300 --> 01:26:42,600
go along to get along we must
boldly stand up.

1567
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:46,500
And if you overhear it, even if
you didn't say anything, I think

1568
01:26:46,500 --> 01:26:49,800
that you're under moral
obligation to speak up, it

1569
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:53,100
reminds me of a case that was a
racist situation.

1570
01:26:53,700 --> 01:26:57,000
I have a lot of friends who are
seeks, I actually dealt a deep

1571
01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:59,900
into Sikhism for a while and it
right after September 11th,

1572
01:26:59,900 --> 01:27:01,900
right?
They were, they were targeted

1573
01:27:01,900 --> 01:27:06,200
heavily and which is crazy.
Of course, because Sikhism they

1574
01:27:06,200 --> 01:27:08,700
do Turbines.
Usually, because they have this

1575
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:11,400
principle called Cash, which
means that their Devotion to

1576
01:27:11,400 --> 01:27:13,900
God, means that they would never
cut their hair, right?

1577
01:27:13,900 --> 01:27:16,400
Which makes the turbine the
most, the easiest thing to do.

1578
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:20,200
Because if you have a man who
has floor length hair, okay,

1579
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:22,100
that's basically what some of
that turbine in most cases.

1580
01:27:22,900 --> 01:27:24,700
You can't just leave that out
very easily.

1581
01:27:24,900 --> 01:27:26,500
We're okay, right?
So there's a way that they put

1582
01:27:26,500 --> 01:27:29,800
up their hair and they put it in
a turban and unfortunately, you

1583
01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:32,900
know, ignorant stereotypes a lot
of Americans associate turbines

1584
01:27:32,900 --> 01:27:35,200
with Muslims even though they're
not even Muslim, right?

1585
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:38,200
In a sense, right?
A friend of mine, it was a

1586
01:27:38,208 --> 01:27:41,100
really sad case, just after
after September 11th, was

1587
01:27:41,100 --> 01:27:44,700
murdered in Phoenix.
Yeah, he's and it was a hate

1588
01:27:44,700 --> 01:27:45,700
crime.
It was a hate crime.

1589
01:27:45,700 --> 01:27:48,200
They targeted him.
Because he was wearing a turban.

1590
01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:53,600
And I think it was, I think he
was killed September 12th or

1591
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:58,800
13th. 2001 I was on my oldest
mission of the time I found out

1592
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:03,500
after I got back and I met him
just before my mission and so

1593
01:28:03,500 --> 01:28:05,200
that kind of those kind of hate
crimes though.

1594
01:28:05,900 --> 01:28:09,000
They don't happen in a vacuum.
It happened because it was

1595
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:12,600
September 11th.
And before they committed

1596
01:28:12,600 --> 01:28:17,400
murder, they committed.
These types of verbal cues that

1597
01:28:17,400 --> 01:28:20,900
they were leading up to it,
okay, right, and so, for

1598
01:28:20,900 --> 01:28:27,400
example, they had gone around
and they had started Them towel

1599
01:28:27,400 --> 01:28:30,700
heads, right?
As a derogatory racist term are

1600
01:28:31,100 --> 01:28:35,100
you know, violent hate term,
their work, on until heads.

1601
01:28:36,700 --> 01:28:40,300
I see, I do believe that even
though that, you know, freedom

1602
01:28:40,300 --> 01:28:43,200
of speech means you can use
racial slurs all you want.

1603
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:47,500
But you know what else we can
do, we can stand up to the

1604
01:28:47,500 --> 01:28:51,000
people who use them.
If some if everybody, he had

1605
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:57,300
said towel head to that week had
said stop right there that is

1606
01:28:57,300 --> 01:29:00,800
not appropriate.
There are plenty of people of

1607
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:03,100
various backgrounds that wear
turbans that has nothing to do

1608
01:29:03,100 --> 01:29:05,000
with that.
Don't be a bigot.

1609
01:29:05,000 --> 01:29:07,300
If people had stood.
Up to him.

1610
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:10,300
It wouldn't have escalated in
the same way.

1611
01:29:10,500 --> 01:29:13,400
Now, I don't believe that we
can, or should criminalize

1612
01:29:13,400 --> 01:29:18,300
speech, but I do believe that
when we encounter violent

1613
01:29:18,300 --> 01:29:20,700
speech, especially in our
churches, especially in

1614
01:29:20,700 --> 01:29:24,800
Mormonism, where we have a
strong obedience ethic, I think

1615
01:29:24,800 --> 01:29:27,300
it's our moral obligation to
stand up and say no, stop right

1616
01:29:27,300 --> 01:29:30,300
there.
We are people of Peace.

1617
01:29:30,400 --> 01:29:32,700
I've gospel is a gospel of
peace, we're not going to talk

1618
01:29:32,700 --> 01:29:34,700
like that.
I think you're right.

1619
01:29:34,700 --> 01:29:37,700
And I want to go back to
something here real quick.

1620
01:29:37,900 --> 01:29:42,200
The reason I brought up the fact
that all three of us believe in

1621
01:29:42,200 --> 01:29:46,000
prophetic metal, and prophetic,
hierarchy, is to show that you

1622
01:29:46,000 --> 01:29:49,100
can have.
You can have that belief and

1623
01:29:49,400 --> 01:29:53,200
vigorously, sustained a man in
his prophetic calling at the

1624
01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:59,600
same time, exercise.
That right that that that muscle

1625
01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:01,800
the other thing.
In fact, they're not even,

1626
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:04,200
they're not contradictory at all
know, their compliments.

1627
01:30:04,200 --> 01:30:06,700
They they're both necessary,
right?

1628
01:30:07,200 --> 01:30:08,400
They work together?
Yep.

1629
01:30:08,400 --> 01:30:12,000
And then the other thing I
wanted to talk to speak on here

1630
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:14,700
just for a second.
Is this clarification on

1631
01:30:14,700 --> 01:30:16,400
Peacemaker?
Okay.

1632
01:30:16,500 --> 01:30:18,000
Yeah.
I brought that up earlier you,

1633
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:20,800
right?
And so you talked, you said,

1634
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:23,600
well, I've always tried to be
The Peacemaker, right?

1635
01:30:23,900 --> 01:30:25,600
There's two ways to make.
Peace.

1636
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:31,200
We think of it in one way, which
is to be to be apologetic up to

1637
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:35,300
college at French alas of
differential, what's that?

1638
01:30:36,600 --> 01:30:38,800
Yeah, yeah.
The the hippie guy or whatever,

1639
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:43,100
right.
The other way is to be the guy

1640
01:30:43,100 --> 01:30:46,900
that sees Danger on the horizon
and speaks out.

1641
01:30:46,900 --> 01:30:49,400
And it's like confronts.
It's like, no, we're gonna go

1642
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:53,600
confront this now because if we
don't confront this now, what

1643
01:30:53,600 --> 01:30:55,100
are we gonna be dealing with
later, right?

1644
01:30:55,200 --> 01:30:58,300
So there's A peacemaker.
And I think they're

1645
01:30:58,300 --> 01:31:01,400
complimentary, they're not,
they're not opposites in the

1646
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:03,800
sense that they're, they're
against each other.

1647
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:05,600
They can't occupy the same
space.

1648
01:31:05,700 --> 01:31:11,300
Ideally you want one guy who is
like Gandhi, who's talking about

1649
01:31:11,500 --> 01:31:14,200
or Martin Luther King?
We're just going to sit and take

1650
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:17,700
it and then there's times you
need the other guy.

1651
01:31:17,700 --> 01:31:19,400
That's like, we're gonna kick
some butt.

1652
01:31:20,200 --> 01:31:21,700
We're gonna go have this
argument.

1653
01:31:21,700 --> 01:31:23,700
We're going to meet on the
battlefield of ideas and we're

1654
01:31:23,708 --> 01:31:26,000
going to have this out so that
we can put this down.

1655
01:31:26,100 --> 01:31:29,600
On now now, yeah, we've been
putting him off for too long.

1656
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:31,400
I want to speak to this for a
minute.

1657
01:31:31,500 --> 01:31:36,600
I am a pacifist I come from a
long line of pacifists before we

1658
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:39,100
were Mormon.
Many of my ancestors were

1659
01:31:39,100 --> 01:31:41,300
members of what is called The
Church of the Brethren.

1660
01:31:41,500 --> 01:31:44,800
It was one of the anabaptist
movements a pacifist movement,

1661
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:49,300
sure that came out of a verya
and I've always believed very

1662
01:31:49,300 --> 01:31:51,500
strongly in absolute and
complete pacifism.

1663
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:54,200
When I turned 18, I was eligible
for the draft.

1664
01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:56,000
I got a draft card in the mail
to fill out.

1665
01:31:56,100 --> 01:31:59,100
Out and I just wrote
conscientious objector and all

1666
01:31:59,100 --> 01:32:01,700
caps across the front of it and
turned it in, right?

1667
01:32:01,700 --> 01:32:03,500
Right.
I've always been very, very

1668
01:32:03,500 --> 01:32:06,100
strongly in favor total
passivism.

1669
01:32:06,900 --> 01:32:09,500
It's actually been a struggle
for me that in Mormonism.

1670
01:32:09,900 --> 01:32:12,600
We don't always glorify
passivism sometimes we glorify

1671
01:32:12,900 --> 01:32:17,900
violence, but here's the
difference, they can exist.

1672
01:32:17,900 --> 01:32:23,900
They can coexist Helaman.
Was this leader who respect to

1673
01:32:23,907 --> 01:32:28,600
the ammonites pacifism and he
even told them you must never

1674
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:32,000
break your oath.
You should remain pacifist even

1675
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:36,100
in the face of War, even in the
face of invasion, do not break

1676
01:32:36,100 --> 01:32:41,000
your oath to stay pacifists and
taught them that but those who

1677
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,700
hadn't taken the oath he
mustered together those

1678
01:32:43,700 --> 01:32:46,500
Stripling Warriors, right?
And then they went out and they

1679
01:32:46,500 --> 01:32:48,600
save their, they saved their
Nation.

1680
01:32:48,900 --> 01:32:51,300
So, there was both of the same
time and I think that both Can

1681
01:32:51,300 --> 01:32:52,700
exist.
So I guess I wanted to bring

1682
01:32:52,700 --> 01:32:56,800
that up because I'm a pacifist
and I've always been absolutely

1683
01:32:56,800 --> 01:33:01,300
against any form of military
service or military's existence.

1684
01:33:02,100 --> 01:33:03,200
And but I've got my brother
here.

1685
01:33:03,200 --> 01:33:08,400
Felipe, who is who's in the
military and so what do you

1686
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:11,600
think about some of the stuff?
Well, I'm not a pacifist

1687
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:15,500
obviously but I'm not a violent
guy, right?

1688
01:33:15,700 --> 01:33:18,200
Like if you were going to ask
what my political views are in

1689
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:21,900
foreign policy, I tend to hold
the old paleo You like not

1690
01:33:21,900 --> 01:33:25,000
interventions, you know, but
when it comes to our culture,

1691
01:33:25,900 --> 01:33:29,300
yeah, weird violent culture,
which is sad.

1692
01:33:30,700 --> 01:33:32,700
You know, they say, the number
of murders committed on

1693
01:33:32,700 --> 01:33:36,500
television, is some massive
orders of magnitude, more than

1694
01:33:36,500 --> 01:33:38,500
the numbers of killings that
actually took place in the

1695
01:33:38,500 --> 01:33:41,700
world, right?
So, there's more fake murder

1696
01:33:41,700 --> 01:33:43,100
that we use for our
entertainment.

1697
01:33:43,100 --> 01:33:46,100
Then there is so, so there's a
certain amount of glorification

1698
01:33:46,100 --> 01:33:47,900
of violence.
And we just rated R movies.

1699
01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:50,000
We just trade, the Coliseum for
TV.

1700
01:33:50,100 --> 01:33:52,800
This actually has a Fetish for
violence, that's the issue.

1701
01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:55,900
I mean, I don't want the only
violent strikes that would

1702
01:33:56,100 --> 01:33:58,300
probably watch just Band of
Brothers, that's about it.

1703
01:33:58,300 --> 01:34:00,800
But, you know, if my wife were
to tell you, I don't really

1704
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:03,800
watch a lot of Island
television, Dwayne watch a lot

1705
01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:08,300
of television at all, but You
were to ask me like what my

1706
01:34:08,300 --> 01:34:12,600
views on violence is its should
always be the last resort, you

1707
01:34:12,608 --> 01:34:16,000
know, there's a author, Jack
Donovan.

1708
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:19,400
He wrote an essay called,
violence has golden, and to

1709
01:34:19,400 --> 01:34:22,600
paraphrase has it.
He said it without violence laws

1710
01:34:22,600 --> 01:34:26,800
would just be words.
It's part of our nature, does

1711
01:34:26,800 --> 01:34:29,400
not mean we have to use it.
I mean, I didn't join the

1712
01:34:29,400 --> 01:34:33,300
military for mercenary purposes.
I joined it for my patriotic

1713
01:34:33,300 --> 01:34:38,600
duty, but I've never met, I have
happened so far, haven't rented

1714
01:34:38,600 --> 01:34:40,100
to a soldier.
Who's looking forward to going

1715
01:34:40,100 --> 01:34:43,300
to war and killing somebody?
I mean, I they joke around, but

1716
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:46,700
when I was a basic training, we
had a sergeant major come into

1717
01:34:46,700 --> 01:34:49,800
our company and talk to us, you
know, like don't be scared at

1718
01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:53,100
these guys are going to train
you have any questions All the

1719
01:34:53,100 --> 01:34:56,600
kids they asked him.
So, how's War, like, how does it

1720
01:34:56,608 --> 01:34:59,700
feel to kill somebody, you know,
and he dodged the question, then

1721
01:34:59,700 --> 01:35:02,500
when he left the drill, one of
our drill sergeant said that's a

1722
01:35:02,508 --> 01:35:04,000
question.
You never ask because it gives

1723
01:35:04,000 --> 01:35:06,200
them gifts T.
That's something he said, that's

1724
01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:09,000
not something, they're all proud
of, like, none of them go off.

1725
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:11,200
Right in the book.
I just killed like a, I just

1726
01:35:11,200 --> 01:35:13,500
killed an Insurgent.
I'm so proud of myself.

1727
01:35:13,900 --> 01:35:17,900
A lot of them have a guilty
conscience in the sense, the

1728
01:35:17,900 --> 01:35:19,600
gauge of the film that Brothers
in Arms.

1729
01:35:19,900 --> 01:35:21,300
Now whether or not you agree
with the word, that's another

1730
01:35:21,300 --> 01:35:23,800
thing, but they're there to look
at After each other and it might

1731
01:35:23,800 --> 01:35:27,200
have been necessary, right?
But that doesn't mean that most,

1732
01:35:27,200 --> 01:35:29,600
anybody wants to never be in
that situation where it becomes

1733
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:32,100
not sick.
I don't think look are there.

1734
01:35:32,100 --> 01:35:33,800
Some guys that are full of
Bluster?

1735
01:35:33,900 --> 01:35:36,000
They are.
But those guys who are full of

1736
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:39,300
Bluster, very rarely have ever
been in a fight.

1737
01:35:39,900 --> 01:35:45,400
I want to, I have a good buddy
who is damn good at Jujitsu

1738
01:35:45,400 --> 01:35:47,300
scary, huh?
Oh yeah, right.

1739
01:35:47,700 --> 01:35:51,000
Because that dude is the most
peaceful, most loving man.

1740
01:35:51,400 --> 01:35:57,700
One of the most loving I've ever
met but what I've seen on, you

1741
01:35:57,700 --> 01:35:59,700
know, he's capable hands.
Yeah, I've seen on a few

1742
01:35:59,700 --> 01:36:02,000
occasions which goes back to
what you originally said, which

1743
01:36:02,000 --> 01:36:05,600
was a good man isn't a weak man.
A Good Man.

1744
01:36:05,600 --> 01:36:09,000
Is a dangerous man who has it
under control, right?

1745
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:11,100
Right?
And and I think that's what

1746
01:36:11,100 --> 01:36:13,900
morality is, right?
Your reality is when you make

1747
01:36:13,900 --> 01:36:16,200
your own decisions because you
actually have it under control.

1748
01:36:16,400 --> 01:36:18,900
Yep.
And so we see in certain

1749
01:36:19,100 --> 01:36:20,900
instances in the scripture,
right?

1750
01:36:20,900 --> 01:36:26,500
The same scripture that they Use
that krakauer uses where Nephi

1751
01:36:26,500 --> 01:36:29,600
slays Laban, is the same
scripture.

1752
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:34,600
I'll use to defend this idea of
defy didn't want to do it.

1753
01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:36,600
Let's remember Nephi argued with
the Lauren.

1754
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:38,200
They're a little bit, right?
Right.

1755
01:36:38,200 --> 01:36:42,400
So it's not, if you're lining up
signing up, going to send me,

1756
01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:46,800
send me, you're probably not the
guy for right, right?

1757
01:36:46,900 --> 01:36:49,600
We don't want masochistic
violent people in the military.

1758
01:36:49,600 --> 01:36:53,000
That's one thing because those
are usually the soldiers who are

1759
01:36:53,000 --> 01:36:56,500
going to snap and probably
commit war crimes and give us a

1760
01:36:56,500 --> 01:36:57,600
black eye.
Yeah.

1761
01:36:57,600 --> 01:37:02,400
I mean it's we're taught to
treat the shirt like my military

1762
01:37:02,400 --> 01:37:05,400
job is not a combat job, but
they can send me to combat, but

1763
01:37:06,100 --> 01:37:08,800
it's always a treat the enemy
humanely as possible.

1764
01:37:08,900 --> 01:37:13,000
Like, no torture, treat them as
a human being, which something I

1765
01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:17,300
agree with.
But, and again, that has to be

1766
01:37:17,300 --> 01:37:19,000
the type of thing.
You have to stand up for.

1767
01:37:19,000 --> 01:37:20,800
I have one more.
I have another story on that.

1768
01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:23,300
Sure.
Trigger warning to anyone who

1769
01:37:23,300 --> 01:37:26,700
served in the military for sure,
on this one I'm sure you already

1770
01:37:26,800 --> 01:37:28,200
my trigger.
Ready.

1771
01:37:28,200 --> 01:37:34,000
There you go.
My my my wife Wendy, my ex-wife

1772
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:36,700
actually one of her best friends
growing up.

1773
01:37:36,700 --> 01:37:41,100
Her name was Elisa Peterson.
She's somewhat famous in these

1774
01:37:41,100 --> 01:37:45,800
circles.
If you study the Iraq War, she

1775
01:37:45,800 --> 01:37:48,000
was an interpreter that was her
job.

1776
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:49,700
She she was very gift with
languages.

1777
01:37:49,700 --> 01:37:53,200
She picked up Arabic very
Quickly, and, and Farsi.

1778
01:37:53,200 --> 01:37:56,100
And some, you know, she was
very, very good at that sort of

1779
01:37:56,100 --> 01:37:58,600
thing.
They wanted her to interpret and

1780
01:37:58,600 --> 01:38:04,100
they had her at a black site
prison with something.

1781
01:38:04,100 --> 01:38:09,900
They called the cage, which was
a torture environment, and they

1782
01:38:09,900 --> 01:38:13,100
brought her in there to
interrogate and interpret for

1783
01:38:13,100 --> 01:38:15,800
the interrogation.
While they committed war crimes

1784
01:38:15,900 --> 01:38:19,100
against these.
These people, this was the same

1785
01:38:19,100 --> 01:38:23,600
exact time as Abu ghraib And
some of these other abuses and

1786
01:38:23,600 --> 01:38:28,500
they brought her in to interpret
and she did it that one time and

1787
01:38:28,500 --> 01:38:33,200
then she told her superiors that
she refused.

1788
01:38:33,800 --> 01:38:38,400
She said I will not cooperate.
I won't go in there from what I

1789
01:38:38,400 --> 01:38:41,800
understand from The Fallout and
this is only because of some of

1790
01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:45,400
the additional commissions that
took place as well as some of

1791
01:38:45,407 --> 01:38:47,700
the stuff that was revealed by
Manning.

1792
01:38:47,700 --> 01:38:52,300
And Snowden about how they got
some of the Us information out,

1793
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:56,700
apparently her superiors knowing
their their criminal Behavior,

1794
01:38:56,700 --> 01:38:58,300
they wanted to cover their
criminal Behavior.

1795
01:38:58,600 --> 01:39:03,000
So they they forced her, not to
say anything, they put her in a

1796
01:39:03,008 --> 01:39:05,700
really tough situation but she
continued to refuse to

1797
01:39:05,700 --> 01:39:10,600
participate.
And with that much pressure on

1798
01:39:10,600 --> 01:39:13,500
her and the fact that they
couldn't allow her to leave,

1799
01:39:14,200 --> 01:39:17,000
they couldn't allow her to get a
dishonorable discharge or go to

1800
01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:18,800
any of their unit.
Because then she would be able

1801
01:39:18,800 --> 01:39:20,400
should be able to reveal their
crimes.

1802
01:39:22,100 --> 01:39:25,500
They put her under a lot of
pressure and she was already a

1803
01:39:26,100 --> 01:39:28,500
look, she was gifted with
languages but I don't think she

1804
01:39:28,500 --> 01:39:32,700
was cut out for the brutality of
real especially torture.

1805
01:39:32,700 --> 01:39:35,200
She was not exposed to the
nicest type of War either she

1806
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:38,400
was exposed to some of the ugly,
most ugly things of Manatee.

1807
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:45,500
The pressure was too much and
she actually killed herself. and

1808
01:39:45,500 --> 01:39:50,200
so she was one of our, you know,
first hundred dead in the in

1809
01:39:50,200 --> 01:39:57,300
those, in those wars, in the
early 21st century and You know,

1810
01:39:57,300 --> 01:40:01,800
to this day, her her mother has
a hard time even accepting any

1811
01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:05,300
of what happened to her.
And I guess that's that's the

1812
01:40:05,308 --> 01:40:07,400
thing to me.
She's one of my greatest heroes

1813
01:40:07,400 --> 01:40:10,000
though.
Because she said, no.

1814
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:14,400
Right.
She said no to the point of

1815
01:40:14,407 --> 01:40:21,100
death, even if even if I wish
that she'd had the strength, not

1816
01:40:21,100 --> 01:40:24,200
to take her own life.
At least, she was strong enough

1817
01:40:24,200 --> 01:40:27,200
not to be complicit anymore,
right?

1818
01:40:30,100 --> 01:40:32,100
And I just, I think it takes
practice.

1819
01:40:32,100 --> 01:40:35,100
I think we have to practice that
we have to mentally practice.

1820
01:40:35,300 --> 01:40:38,800
When do I say no and why?
And if you know, when you're

1821
01:40:38,800 --> 01:40:40,700
going to say no and why you're
going to say no to certain

1822
01:40:40,700 --> 01:40:43,900
things, You're not going to
you're not going to get that far

1823
01:40:43,900 --> 01:40:46,400
down, you're going to stop it
before it escalates.

1824
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:51,900
I'll go back to my concealed
carry training training, right?

1825
01:40:51,900 --> 01:40:55,100
Which is no your red line
because here's the thing.

1826
01:40:55,800 --> 01:40:58,200
I don't constantly worried about
my red line anymore.

1827
01:40:58,900 --> 01:41:02,200
It's been defined, I know,
lawyers, how do you decide where

1828
01:41:02,200 --> 01:41:05,000
it is, what, you know, tell walk
me through that.

1829
01:41:05,100 --> 01:41:06,800
So, I do, how do I make up this
red line?

1830
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:09,900
Where's my red line?
So, for me and concealed carry,

1831
01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:12,800
uh-huh, we'll just use this.
This as an example.

1832
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:18,200
What is the line at which I'm
ready to discharge my weapon.

1833
01:41:18,600 --> 01:41:19,800
Okay.
Is it?

1834
01:41:19,800 --> 01:41:24,600
When some guy is leaving my
house with a television?

1835
01:41:25,000 --> 01:41:31,500
No that's not.
It is it when I have him at a

1836
01:41:31,500 --> 01:41:34,800
clear disadvantage in.
He is surrendering, that is not

1837
01:41:34,800 --> 01:41:37,500
a red line.
I'll tell you where my red wine

1838
01:41:37,500 --> 01:41:41,600
is.
It's 3:00 in the morning how are

1839
01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:45,400
really doesn't matter but just
hypothetical 3:00 in the morning

1840
01:41:46,300 --> 01:41:50,700
dudes in the hallway.
Walking towards some a room.

1841
01:41:51,900 --> 01:41:55,500
I'm just going to assume at that
point.

1842
01:41:56,700 --> 01:42:01,000
That it's a worst-case scenario.
I am going to say, once I have a

1843
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:05,900
weapon stop and if they continue
to make, can you come out you

1844
01:42:05,900 --> 01:42:08,600
approach?
I will discharge my weapon.

1845
01:42:08,800 --> 01:42:13,000
So I thought it through I
thought if I'm in a store, you

1846
01:42:13,000 --> 01:42:15,800
know, I have thought about your
money or something here -

1847
01:42:15,800 --> 01:42:17,200
something interesting that I
want to bring out here.

1848
01:42:17,900 --> 01:42:20,100
One of the biggest problems with
our glorification of violence on

1849
01:42:20,108 --> 01:42:22,200
our culture, that drives me
crazy about that.

1850
01:42:22,200 --> 01:42:25,700
Red line issue is all the
Mexican standoffs they call them

1851
01:42:25,800 --> 01:42:28,100
or All the times.
When someone doesn't obey an

1852
01:42:28,100 --> 01:42:31,200
order, you'll you see this
constantly and television shows

1853
01:42:31,200 --> 01:42:33,200
and whatnot.
Someone pulls out there, got a

1854
01:42:33,300 --> 01:42:36,200
police officer, somebody pass
the pull their gun, somebody's

1855
01:42:36,200 --> 01:42:40,600
in a dangerous or threatening
violence situation and they say,

1856
01:42:40,600 --> 01:42:42,400
stop right there.
All open fire, you know, they

1857
01:42:42,400 --> 01:42:44,400
give them a verbal warning and
everything that and then the guy

1858
01:42:44,400 --> 01:42:46,700
rushes them and they don't fire.
Yes.

1859
01:42:46,700 --> 01:42:50,100
Or someone pulls out a gun and
says, I'm going to kill you now

1860
01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:52,600
and then the other guy pulls out
a gun and says, well, what about

1861
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:54,400
now?
It's like know that those are

1862
01:42:54,400 --> 01:42:58,000
not those are not situations.
Any rational human being is

1863
01:42:58,008 --> 01:43:01,100
going to have a conversation,
continue to run, or any of that.

1864
01:43:02,300 --> 01:43:07,000
And I feel like that that Miss
trains, our minds, our minds,

1865
01:43:07,000 --> 01:43:10,300
fix it on that.
And we think I know guns you

1866
01:43:10,300 --> 01:43:13,900
point a gun to assert Authority
in a situation.

1867
01:43:14,400 --> 01:43:16,400
It's like no, no, no, no.
If you do anything, I've done

1868
01:43:16,400 --> 01:43:18,000
savings to you.
Never point a gun to assert

1869
01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:21,700
Authority in a situation.
You use, you only point the gun.

1870
01:43:21,900 --> 01:43:24,700
If it is absolutely necessary to
protect human life to shoot the

1871
01:43:24,700 --> 01:43:27,000
gun, right?
You don't Point the gun

1872
01:43:27,000 --> 01:43:29,600
willy-nilly, right.
And this is one of the big

1873
01:43:29,600 --> 01:43:31,200
differences.
I think between our military and

1874
01:43:31,200 --> 01:43:34,100
our police, our police are
overly militarized but they

1875
01:43:34,100 --> 01:43:36,200
haven't yet.
Got the discipline down the way,

1876
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:38,900
the military does.
You know, I want a SWAT team

1877
01:43:38,900 --> 01:43:41,100
Reds house because someone
thought they smelled marijuana

1878
01:43:41,100 --> 01:43:42,800
Smokers.
Only, they've all got their guns

1879
01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:44,000
out.
They're all pointing at

1880
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:47,300
everybody all the time and it's
like, you know, if you're

1881
01:43:47,300 --> 01:43:49,700
pointing that gun, you ought to
follow through and just do what

1882
01:43:49,900 --> 01:43:52,400
you said you were going to, you
know, your body language was in

1883
01:43:52,400 --> 01:43:54,800
the first place, you got to pull
the trigger is why else are you

1884
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:56,300
pointing this at people?
You know?

1885
01:43:56,400 --> 01:43:58,900
What I mean?
And and, and so yeah, not

1886
01:43:58,900 --> 01:44:01,300
knowing where a red line is is
partly training to us.

1887
01:44:01,300 --> 01:44:04,000
We're trained you to think that
you can have a Mexican standoff.

1888
01:44:04,000 --> 01:44:05,600
Look at a bunch of.
Guys are all pointing guns at

1889
01:44:05,608 --> 01:44:09,000
each other.
It's going to be over really

1890
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:11,100
fast, there's not going to be a
conversation, right?

1891
01:44:11,100 --> 01:44:12,800
No.
And that's just it right?

1892
01:44:13,100 --> 01:44:16,500
Or if you say stop right there
and then they rush you you're

1893
01:44:16,500 --> 01:44:18,900
going to shoot because, right?
That's the whole point of that

1894
01:44:18,900 --> 01:44:21,800
situation, is the composition on
situation is the reason I'm

1895
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:25,600
putting my gun is you have to
stop now, you you start running,

1896
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:29,400
you expect to be shot, right?
Right and and and that's just

1897
01:44:29,400 --> 01:44:31,500
one red line, right?
There's been others that I've

1898
01:44:31,500 --> 01:44:36,800
been forced to think about,
which are I'm in a convenience

1899
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:39,300
store.
And it's getting held up, to be

1900
01:44:39,300 --> 01:44:42,400
honest, our bank, or some or
bank or something like that, to

1901
01:44:42,400 --> 01:44:44,800
be honest.
As I thought through those, I

1902
01:44:44,800 --> 01:44:47,400
think that's going to be one of
those things where I really hope

1903
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:51,900
I'm in tune with the spirit that
day, because it's hard to decide

1904
01:44:51,900 --> 01:44:54,500
where that line is our time to
decide where that line is

1905
01:44:54,500 --> 01:44:56,500
because I'm like, is this a
desperate man?

1906
01:44:56,800 --> 01:44:59,500
That just needs the money or is
this or is he going to shoot

1907
01:44:59,500 --> 01:45:02,300
desperate man?
Who's going to shoot, right?

1908
01:45:02,300 --> 01:45:06,400
And yeah, some of it depends on
the weapon that he's using as he

1909
01:45:06,400 --> 01:45:09,500
called the place.
Up with a knife, right at that

1910
01:45:09,500 --> 01:45:10,500
point.
At that point.

1911
01:45:10,500 --> 01:45:13,100
He's probably he's dangerous,
but he's probably not going to

1912
01:45:13,100 --> 01:45:15,800
kill anybody, right?
So yeah, there's there's several

1913
01:45:15,800 --> 01:45:17,300
things.
Now let's get this back in the

1914
01:45:17,300 --> 01:45:20,200
context of the Gospel.
Okay.

1915
01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:21,400
Yeah.
Where's my red line?

1916
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:24,600
Where's your red wine?
Been at what point are we going

1917
01:45:24,600 --> 01:45:27,600
to say?
Okay, that's enough.

1918
01:45:27,600 --> 01:45:30,100
You got to stop, right?
No more.

1919
01:45:30,200 --> 01:45:32,900
I'm going to put, we're going to
put this down now.

1920
01:45:33,200 --> 01:45:36,000
Anytime someone preaches, false
Doctrine relating to blood

1921
01:45:36,000 --> 01:45:38,600
atonement.
And in time, someone preaches

1922
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:43,000
false Doctrine relating to
advocating, some kind of blind,

1923
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:48,100
Obedience of authority.
Anytime somebody is teaching

1924
01:45:48,100 --> 01:45:54,500
preaching, or encouraging us to,
to idolize the violence in the

1925
01:45:54,500 --> 01:45:57,200
scriptures without the context
of why it was Necessary if

1926
01:45:57,200 --> 01:45:59,600
someone's just like, oh man, I
wish I could be like Captain

1927
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:01,600
Moroni.
I I'm gonna be like, yeah that's

1928
01:46:01,600 --> 01:46:02,900
great.
I want to be like a dreamer and

1929
01:46:02,900 --> 01:46:06,500
I do because I'm thinking in my
head Captain Ron, I was so

1930
01:46:06,500 --> 01:46:10,700
compassionate to his enemies.
So constantly forgiving so

1931
01:46:10,700 --> 01:46:14,100
careful and he valued human life
so much including the lives of

1932
01:46:14,108 --> 01:46:15,600
his enemies.
That's why I respect him so

1933
01:46:15,600 --> 01:46:18,800
much.
But then if I find out the other

1934
01:46:18,800 --> 01:46:20,800
person's conversations, like, oh
yeah, I really respect him

1935
01:46:20,800 --> 01:46:22,500
because he knew how to kick
butt.

1936
01:46:22,500 --> 01:46:24,600
I want to be somebody who's
ready to kill.

1937
01:46:25,200 --> 01:46:28,400
I want to, I want to, I want to
toughen up until I'm ready to

1938
01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:32,800
kill then I'm like, whoa, no, so
that's the right, you know, that

1939
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:37,200
side of things are red line.
Somebody who's Miss interpreting

1940
01:46:37,200 --> 01:46:39,900
our misunderstanding, the oath
of Vengeance which I believe to

1941
01:46:39,900 --> 01:46:44,000
be one of the most peaceful and
beautiful doctrines.

1942
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:47,300
The restoration explain the oath
of Vengeance because not Not

1943
01:46:47,300 --> 01:46:49,700
just the krakauer make
reference, oh yeah.

1944
01:46:49,700 --> 01:46:53,000
They make a big deal out of
that, but there's been a lot of

1945
01:46:53,100 --> 01:46:58,400
other authors in terms of Mormon
scholarship and I use that word

1946
01:46:58,400 --> 01:47:02,900
rather Loosely that tries to
describe the oath of Vengeance.

1947
01:47:03,200 --> 01:47:06,600
Tell us what the oath of
vengeance is what it really want

1948
01:47:06,600 --> 01:47:08,300
is actually is what it's all
about.

1949
01:47:08,400 --> 01:47:11,100
The oath of vengeance is a
portion of the Mormon Temple

1950
01:47:11,100 --> 01:47:15,700
endowment and, or at least it
was originally, some people

1951
01:47:15,700 --> 01:47:18,300
speculate that it I have been
added after the martyrdom of

1952
01:47:18,300 --> 01:47:20,200
Joseph Smith, I don't think
that's actually true.

1953
01:47:20,700 --> 01:47:24,200
All of the oath of Vengeance
language is actually throughout

1954
01:47:24,200 --> 01:47:27,000
the Bible and the Book of Mormon
and a bunch of other places on

1955
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:29,400
definitely was taught by Joseph
Smith on many occasions.

1956
01:47:29,700 --> 01:47:32,000
So I don't think was made up by.
I think it was probably in the

1957
01:47:32,008 --> 01:47:35,300
endowment even before Brigham
Young but I can't prove that no

1958
01:47:35,300 --> 01:47:36,800
written records.
By the way of, what the

1959
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:40,800
endowment we retained fully,
there was no script until 1877,

1960
01:47:41,500 --> 01:47:47,900
but this, but in 1877, as it was
recorded at the time, And as

1961
01:47:47,900 --> 01:47:49,600
it's still practiced in
Christchurch, the oath of

1962
01:47:49,600 --> 01:47:52,600
vengeance, is one of the
covenants that we make with God,

1963
01:47:53,100 --> 01:47:56,100
that we will pray.
And then we will never cease to

1964
01:47:56,100 --> 01:47:59,000
pray and never cease to
importune, high heaven to

1965
01:47:59,000 --> 01:48:00,600
avenge, the blood of the
innocent.

1966
01:48:01,200 --> 01:48:03,500
And then we will teach this to
our children, our children's

1967
01:48:03,500 --> 01:48:05,000
children to the third and fourth
generation.

1968
01:48:05,700 --> 01:48:07,400
Let me unpack what I believe
that means.

1969
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:11,200
First of all, I think that it
gets a bad rap because of the

1970
01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:13,100
name, it's been called the oath
of Vengeance.

1971
01:48:13,500 --> 01:48:18,100
It's really more accurately
frankly from It's own wording.

1972
01:48:18,100 --> 01:48:20,900
It should probably be referred
to as the oath of Prayer.

1973
01:48:23,100 --> 01:48:25,000
That just sounds too peaceful to
people who want to make a big

1974
01:48:25,000 --> 01:48:26,800
terrible thing out of this oath
of Vengeance.

1975
01:48:27,700 --> 01:48:30,700
The prayer of the oath of
Vengeance of course is what that

1976
01:48:30,700 --> 01:48:33,600
the Lord's will be done.
That the Lord's Justice come

1977
01:48:33,600 --> 01:48:35,600
upon those who shed the blood of
the innocent.

1978
01:48:35,800 --> 01:48:38,600
Now this is throughout the
scriptures I especially would

1979
01:48:38,600 --> 01:48:44,700
love to point to the Book of
Revelation, where John saw in

1980
01:48:44,700 --> 01:48:49,800
Vision, the celestial Temple.
And so he looked up through the

1981
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:52,700
heavens and he saw this
representation of heaven with

1982
01:48:52,900 --> 01:48:56,100
Jesus in the temple that is
heaven.

1983
01:48:57,100 --> 01:49:02,600
And from beneath the altar
significantly, he could hear the

1984
01:49:02,600 --> 01:49:06,200
blood of the Saints crying out
for vengeance.

1985
01:49:06,200 --> 01:49:08,600
The blood of the innocent, the
dimension, over the ages, crying

1986
01:49:08,600 --> 01:49:10,800
out to the Lord.
How long O Lord until we are

1987
01:49:10,808 --> 01:49:13,300
Avenged.
Now, I want to put this in the

1988
01:49:13,308 --> 01:49:15,400
context.
What was that Revelation all

1989
01:49:15,400 --> 01:49:18,300
about?
It wasn't about violence.

1990
01:49:19,500 --> 01:49:23,200
The scriptural basis of all of
this is about prayer and it's

1991
01:49:23,200 --> 01:49:27,000
about the Holy Temple being the
place where the innocent cry out

1992
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:32,100
for Justice from God.
It's a prayer, not an act of

1993
01:49:32,100 --> 01:49:35,900
violence and it's a prayer for
what, it's a prayer for peace.

1994
01:49:36,300 --> 01:49:41,900
It's a prayer asking.
God, how long must the innocent

1995
01:49:41,900 --> 01:49:46,600
suffer in this Fallen World.
It's wrapped up in the

1996
01:49:46,600 --> 01:49:48,000
recognition.
First of all.

1997
01:49:49,000 --> 01:49:52,100
That this is a world where these
terrible Injustice is happening.

1998
01:49:53,500 --> 01:49:59,600
Where Brenda Lafferty and Erica
Lafferty, her baby can be

1999
01:49:59,600 --> 01:50:03,400
murdered in Cold Blood.
What do you do with such a

2000
01:50:03,407 --> 01:50:07,200
world?
How do we in, how do we engage

2001
01:50:07,500 --> 01:50:11,100
with the world filled with war
crimes, and rape and murder?

2002
01:50:11,500 --> 01:50:14,000
Now some people deal with that
by saying there must not be a

2003
01:50:14,008 --> 01:50:17,500
God because if God was real he
would stop this from happening.

2004
01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:23,100
that's not a Biblical God and
that's certainly not the way

2005
01:50:23,100 --> 01:50:26,800
that we understand God and
Mormonism but we do view God as

2006
01:50:26,808 --> 01:50:32,400
a just God And we believe that
in the end, God will create the

2007
01:50:32,400 --> 01:50:36,900
millennial age that he will heal
the world and bring about the

2008
01:50:36,907 --> 01:50:39,400
resurrection.
And so the oath of Vengeance to

2009
01:50:39,400 --> 01:50:44,900
me is an oath that we will.
Never forget that this is a

2010
01:50:44,900 --> 01:50:48,700
world of darkness and Evil.
And that will do something about

2011
01:50:48,700 --> 01:50:50,100
it.
And what's the something we're

2012
01:50:50,100 --> 01:50:52,300
going to do about it?
We will pray and we will never

2013
01:50:52,300 --> 01:50:58,100
cease praying. for an end to all
sorrow an end to that, every

2014
01:50:58,100 --> 01:51:02,900
tear will be dried and every,
every innocent life that's ever

2015
01:51:02,900 --> 01:51:06,900
been taken It's not lost
forever.

2016
01:51:07,100 --> 01:51:10,100
That's the because this is
what's caught up in the actual

2017
01:51:10,100 --> 01:51:12,100
hope of the gospel.
And this is what John, the

2018
01:51:12,100 --> 01:51:14,700
Revelator I believe was teaching
about the oath of Vengeance in

2019
01:51:14,700 --> 01:51:17,700
the Book of Revelation is that
he was trying to teach us that

2020
01:51:18,200 --> 01:51:24,300
in spite of this world.
There's a better world that

2021
01:51:24,300 --> 01:51:27,200
there's a hope and this is why
it's called the gospel of the

2022
01:51:27,208 --> 01:51:31,000
good news that there's a hope in
that Resurrection.

2023
01:51:32,300 --> 01:51:37,100
Nothing's lost not forever.
Brenda will live again.

2024
01:51:38,000 --> 01:51:42,300
Erica will ithacan.
Brenda will be able to hold her

2025
01:51:42,300 --> 01:51:47,300
child to her breast breathe in
the air of a new world and pick

2026
01:51:47,300 --> 01:51:50,600
up the Lafferty's.
Cannot Rob her of that right to

2027
01:51:50,600 --> 01:51:51,900
me.
That's the hope of the that's

2028
01:51:51,900 --> 01:51:54,300
the whole over the gospel.
And this is one of the reasons

2029
01:51:54,300 --> 01:51:56,100
why I believe the oath of
vengeance is such an important

2030
01:51:56,100 --> 01:51:59,200
part of the temple ceremony
because it happens right in the

2031
01:51:59,200 --> 01:52:04,400
very center of the endowment
ceremony, And it's described as

2032
01:52:04,400 --> 01:52:09,600
being this like this cry from
the ground, like a song from the

2033
01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:12,500
other side of the veil of all
the innocent to have ever died,

2034
01:52:12,500 --> 01:52:14,300
all the wrongs that have ever
been done.

2035
01:52:14,300 --> 01:52:17,600
Every Injustice is brought
before the Lord.

2036
01:52:18,100 --> 01:52:20,200
In other words, he's not
ignorant of our pain.

2037
01:52:20,800 --> 01:52:25,300
He's there with us in our pain
and he's promising us, don't be

2038
01:52:25,308 --> 01:52:27,900
afraid.
I will make this right.

2039
01:52:30,000 --> 01:52:34,400
And so if we can make our heart
constantly filled with that

2040
01:52:34,400 --> 01:52:37,500
prayer, never ceasing to pray
for that world.

2041
01:52:37,500 --> 01:52:40,900
Then our heart, our mind becomes
attuned, with the mind and the

2042
01:52:40,907 --> 01:52:44,000
will of the Divine.
That's how I believe we become a

2043
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:47,600
peaceful people.
That's how we live.

2044
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:51,300
The gospel of peace is by having
this oath of Vengeance.

2045
01:52:51,300 --> 01:52:54,700
This, this prayer always in our
hearts for God's justice and

2046
01:52:54,700 --> 01:53:02,100
God's Redemption. we don't
despair just because we see

2047
01:53:02,200 --> 01:53:09,700
these terrible things, we know
that The evil will get their

2048
01:53:09,700 --> 01:53:13,300
just reward for their evil and
that the righteous will get the

2049
01:53:13,300 --> 01:53:16,300
just reward of their
righteousness that there's Mercy

2050
01:53:16,300 --> 01:53:19,700
out there for them and that it's
not the end, you know?

2051
01:53:19,700 --> 01:53:26,400
And I won't go into specifics
because it's sacred to me but I

2052
01:53:26,400 --> 01:53:28,500
will say this nowhere in the
oath of Vengeance.

2053
01:53:28,500 --> 01:53:32,100
Does it say Do you ever say make
me the instrument?

2054
01:53:32,100 --> 01:53:35,800
Let me be the RO.
Let me do something against the

2055
01:53:35,800 --> 01:53:38,000
wicked or something you know,
it's not a nice.

2056
01:53:38,600 --> 01:53:41,500
God.
Please, please your will be done

2057
01:53:41,500 --> 01:53:42,900
in this.
Please.

2058
01:53:43,200 --> 01:53:47,600
Will you do this, right?
So this is not conditioning and

2059
01:53:47,600 --> 01:53:50,000
this is why it says in this in
the scriptures vengeance is

2060
01:53:50,000 --> 01:53:50,800
mine.
Saith the Lord.

2061
01:53:50,800 --> 01:53:54,100
I will repay right?
Because we don't repay right?

2062
01:53:54,400 --> 01:53:58,500
The Lord, the Lord will sort
this out and we don't have to do

2063
01:53:58,500 --> 01:54:00,400
any violence, right?
Right.

2064
01:54:00,400 --> 01:54:03,100
And and so you're right, I
think, just because of its name

2065
01:54:03,100 --> 01:54:05,200
it gets a bad rap.
Right, right.

2066
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:07,800
The thing I first thought of
when I first read it, all those

2067
01:54:07,800 --> 01:54:10,900
years ago, First start studying
fundamentalism was, this is

2068
01:54:10,900 --> 01:54:15,700
really like a plea for justice.
This isn't a plea for quote

2069
01:54:15,700 --> 01:54:17,300
Vengeance, this is Justice.
Right?

2070
01:54:17,300 --> 01:54:20,300
Because of the Lord's.
Vengeance is Justice exactly?

2071
01:54:20,300 --> 01:54:22,900
Exactly.
And so I think that that's very

2072
01:54:22,900 --> 01:54:27,400
important because the this gets
twisted in really heavily along

2073
01:54:27,400 --> 01:54:30,500
with blood atonement, right?
And here's and so let's talk

2074
01:54:30,500 --> 01:54:32,900
about what I do for a second.
I want to get Matt to what is

2075
01:54:32,900 --> 01:54:37,800
blood atonement.
People say the the again.

2076
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:39,500
Krakauer Has booked these other
things.

2077
01:54:39,500 --> 01:54:42,100
They want to point out that they
believe that the doctrine of

2078
01:54:42,108 --> 01:54:49,000
blood atonement.
Is this idea that We should kill

2079
01:54:49,500 --> 01:54:52,400
the evil doers or that, you
know, like Jihad or something,

2080
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:54,200
like some Mormon version of
jihad, right?

2081
01:54:54,200 --> 01:54:57,200
That those who do really, really
evil things, they need to be

2082
01:54:57,200 --> 01:54:59,000
destroyed.
They need to be killed and that,

2083
01:54:59,000 --> 01:55:02,700
that's how we will be saved or
something.

2084
01:55:03,300 --> 01:55:06,400
That's really, I mean, if you
look at what Joseph Smith,

2085
01:55:06,700 --> 01:55:09,200
Brigham Young, and these other
men actually taught.

2086
01:55:09,800 --> 01:55:11,700
I don't think that's ever the
point.

2087
01:55:12,200 --> 01:55:16,300
It's not about look more.
Modern Pioneers were definitely

2088
01:55:16,300 --> 01:55:18,400
on the frontier.
Okay, And there was some

2089
01:55:18,400 --> 01:55:21,600
Frontier Justice dulled out but
not just by Mormons, okay?

2090
01:55:21,600 --> 01:55:23,900
Right.
There was the what it was, the

2091
01:55:23,900 --> 01:55:26,900
Wild West, okay?
And so there, I'm not going to

2092
01:55:26,907 --> 01:55:29,300
try to justify or explain away
some of the heinous crimes that

2093
01:55:29,300 --> 01:55:30,400
were committed.
There were heinous crimes

2094
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:33,600
committed, okay?
But I don't believe that they

2095
01:55:33,600 --> 01:55:37,300
were properly motivated by a
true principle.

2096
01:55:37,300 --> 01:55:39,100
There is a true principle in
blood atonement.

2097
01:55:39,100 --> 01:55:41,800
And that is really the, the
central message of all

2098
01:55:41,800 --> 01:55:43,900
Christianity.
And actually, a huge part of

2099
01:55:43,900 --> 01:55:49,000
Judaism even now is the idea
that we are saved through the

2100
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:52,900
blood and that sounds really
gross and violent because blood

2101
01:55:52,900 --> 01:55:57,000
of bodily fluid or something,
but blood is not just a bodily

2102
01:55:57,000 --> 01:56:00,500
fluid, it's a symbol in this
case that goes back into ancient

2103
01:56:00,500 --> 01:56:04,700
antiquity.
And the questions that the

2104
01:56:04,700 --> 01:56:07,100
Ancients were asking these
ancient Patriarchs were asking

2105
01:56:07,100 --> 01:56:10,200
about, what about life, what
about death, what about after

2106
01:56:10,200 --> 01:56:13,400
death, what about any of this?
And so the blood becomes the

2107
01:56:13,400 --> 01:56:17,100
symbol of the life within us.
This is one of the reasons why

2108
01:56:17,100 --> 01:56:20,100
nobody accuses us of threatened
our family, for example, it

2109
01:56:20,100 --> 01:56:24,400
would say, hey, it's in your
blood, you know, the The

2110
01:56:24,400 --> 01:56:30,200
Incredibles, that's a fun one.
The, in The Incredibles they the

2111
01:56:30,200 --> 01:56:32,000
parents are these superheroes,
right?

2112
01:56:32,000 --> 01:56:34,300
And they haven't actually, Their
kids, how to use their powers

2113
01:56:34,300 --> 01:56:37,900
well and they're in a dangerous
situation.

2114
01:56:37,900 --> 01:56:42,700
The mom says to Violet the
teenage girl and so Elastigirl,

2115
01:56:42,700 --> 01:56:45,800
says to forget what violence
superhero name is supposed to

2116
01:56:45,800 --> 01:56:49,900
be, says to her.
Don't worry if the time comes

2117
01:56:49,900 --> 01:56:51,400
that you have to protect
yourself, you'll know what to

2118
01:56:51,400 --> 01:56:54,000
do.
I believe in you because it's in

2119
01:56:54,000 --> 01:56:58,500
your blood.
And violet then takes the great

2120
01:56:58,500 --> 01:57:00,300
hope in that thinking, you know
what?

2121
01:57:00,300 --> 01:57:02,400
It's true.
I've never faced a dangerous

2122
01:57:02,400 --> 01:57:07,200
situation, but it's in my blood.
Well, nobody thought that nobody

2123
01:57:07,200 --> 01:57:11,200
rational, I don't think would
assume that.

2124
01:57:11,500 --> 01:57:14,600
Oh my goodness.
The makers of the the animators

2125
01:57:14,600 --> 01:57:17,800
of Pixar's must be Mormons,
their teaching blood atonement

2126
01:57:18,400 --> 01:57:19,700
theology.
You know?

2127
01:57:19,700 --> 01:57:21,900
I mean and and now she's
encouraging you to do violence

2128
01:57:21,900 --> 01:57:23,700
to go kill people because
they're crazy Mormons.

2129
01:57:23,700 --> 01:57:27,300
You know that to me, Most of the
talk about blood atonement and

2130
01:57:27,300 --> 01:57:30,200
trying to make it into this bad
thing would be roughly

2131
01:57:30,200 --> 01:57:33,300
equivalent to making that
connection because of a Pixar

2132
01:57:33,300 --> 01:57:34,000
movie.
Okay.

2133
01:57:34,200 --> 01:57:38,900
You know.
Um because blood atonement is Is

2134
01:57:38,900 --> 01:57:42,100
a Doctrine about who we are and
how we relate to God.

2135
01:57:42,600 --> 01:57:46,900
And that we have the opportunity
to be redeemed from our mortal

2136
01:57:46,900 --> 01:57:50,600
state, which is symbolized by
the Mortal life is in the blood.

2137
01:57:51,500 --> 01:57:54,600
Okay?
So everybody dies or your

2138
01:57:54,600 --> 01:57:56,600
children are considered your
blood, right?

2139
01:57:56,600 --> 01:57:58,500
Blood is thicker than water.
There's another thing we often

2140
01:57:58,500 --> 01:58:01,700
say, and nobody thinks we're
making violent, violent threats,

2141
01:58:01,700 --> 01:58:03,600
against anyone and we say blood
is thicker than water.

2142
01:58:05,400 --> 01:58:08,300
What we mean, of course, is that
we have a connection.

2143
01:58:08,400 --> 01:58:10,000
Connection.
And that connection has to do

2144
01:58:10,000 --> 01:58:11,900
with something fundamental about
our lives.

2145
01:58:12,200 --> 01:58:15,100
So blood being thicker than
water is like saying, look, your

2146
01:58:15,100 --> 01:58:19,300
family is your family and you
got to deal with it, good or

2147
01:58:19,300 --> 01:58:23,600
bad, right?
And so be loyal to your family

2148
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:28,600
and help your family.
That's all part of these

2149
01:58:28,600 --> 01:58:31,300
doctrines.
And when you isolate it down to

2150
01:58:31,300 --> 01:58:33,900
one little thing and say, ah,
this must mean that you have to

2151
01:58:33,900 --> 01:58:36,500
kill people.
They're really missing the

2152
01:58:36,508 --> 01:58:37,900
point.
The other thing I need to point

2153
01:58:37,900 --> 01:58:41,200
out is that from Joseph Smith
and Brigham Young big part of it

2154
01:58:41,200 --> 01:58:44,500
was a debate about capital
punishment.

2155
01:58:46,100 --> 01:58:50,500
So when they do talk about
shedding the blood of murderers

2156
01:58:50,500 --> 01:58:53,000
and things like that, and let
their blood be poured out as an

2157
01:58:53,000 --> 01:58:56,400
atonement for their sins and
things like that, this early

2158
01:58:56,400 --> 01:59:03,100
Mormon rhetoric wasn't about.
Justifying religious themed

2159
01:59:03,100 --> 01:59:04,300
violence.
Okay.

2160
01:59:04,600 --> 01:59:06,800
It had almost nothing to do with
religion and had to do with the

2161
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:11,200
fact that in the frontier days
and pretty much most of the

2162
01:59:11,200 --> 01:59:13,300
Christian World.
Capital punishment was not only

2163
01:59:13,300 --> 01:59:17,900
common in regularly used
worldwide as a one of the most

2164
01:59:17,900 --> 01:59:19,600
important and basic forms of
punishment.

2165
01:59:19,600 --> 01:59:21,200
Okay?
So it wasn't this rare thing

2166
01:59:21,200 --> 01:59:25,600
like it is now it was a regular
occurrence and a public

2167
01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:28,400
occurrence, they were all doing
hanging.

2168
01:59:29,200 --> 01:59:32,000
And Joseph Smith, Brigham Young,
and a bunch of other people all

2169
01:59:32,000 --> 01:59:36,000
pointed out that that is very
anti-biblical to hang people.

2170
01:59:36,600 --> 01:59:39,000
It says it talks about how that
that's a.

2171
01:59:39,200 --> 01:59:41,500
It's terrible dishonor.
Anything that's been strangled.

2172
01:59:41,500 --> 01:59:44,700
Even an animal that's been
strangled or drowned is unclean.

2173
01:59:44,700 --> 01:59:47,300
You can't, you know, like a cow
beef.

2174
01:59:47,700 --> 01:59:50,100
Beef.
Cattle is absolutely a clean

2175
01:59:50,100 --> 01:59:50,800
meat.
You know what I mean?

2176
01:59:50,800 --> 01:59:55,300
You can eat beef according to
kosher rules and we do it baby.

2177
01:59:55,300 --> 01:59:56,600
Yeah.
Okay, you can eat beef according

2178
01:59:56,600 --> 02:00:00,100
to kosher rules.
However, if the Ow was strangled

2179
02:00:00,100 --> 02:00:04,500
or drowned you cannot, it's like
a disrespect against that

2180
02:00:04,500 --> 02:00:06,200
animal.
So why would we be treating even

2181
02:00:06,200 --> 02:00:08,000
are criminals with such
disrespect?

2182
02:00:08,000 --> 02:00:10,100
That would be doing something
that's absolutely forbidden in

2183
02:00:10,108 --> 02:00:12,700
the Bible.
And so they were saying no it

2184
02:00:12,700 --> 02:00:17,300
says in the Bible that that when
a man who sheds man's blood by

2185
02:00:17,300 --> 02:00:20,300
man, shall his blood be shed.
This is in the Old Testament,

2186
02:00:20,300 --> 02:00:24,000
basically saying Capital,
endorsing capital punishment by

2187
02:00:24,000 --> 02:00:28,200
their reading and saying though,
it doesn't say hang in.

2188
02:00:29,500 --> 02:00:34,200
It says shed his blood and so
again they're pointing to these,

2189
02:00:34,200 --> 02:00:37,500
they're pointing to these
biblical passages they're doing.

2190
02:00:37,500 --> 02:00:40,700
So in a symbolic way, they're
talking about they're wrestling

2191
02:00:40,700 --> 02:00:44,100
with as we all need to wrestle
with big questions of life and

2192
02:00:44,100 --> 02:00:46,300
death, not necessarily
encouraging violence.

2193
02:00:46,700 --> 02:00:49,500
There's a quote from Brigham
Young gets thrown around all the

2194
02:00:49,500 --> 02:00:53,900
time and people want to say,
it's a disgusting horrible

2195
02:00:53,900 --> 02:00:55,900
quote.
And I think everybody who says

2196
02:00:55,900 --> 02:00:58,300
that this is terrible, has no
idea what he's talking about or

2197
02:00:58,300 --> 02:01:00,800
ever read.
We quote, you read, you read,

2198
02:01:00,800 --> 02:01:03,800
plenty of Scott's.
One of the quotes is, I love no

2199
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:07,200
wife so well, that I would not
put a javelin through her heart

2200
02:01:08,500 --> 02:01:10,200
and people are, like, what are
you talking about?

2201
02:01:10,200 --> 02:01:13,500
First of all, what most people
are hearing, the Casual reader

2202
02:01:13,500 --> 02:01:15,900
who doesn't understand the Bible
is hearing is Brigham, Young.

2203
02:01:15,900 --> 02:01:19,000
Doesn't love his wives and he
doesn't care if he murders them

2204
02:01:19,200 --> 02:01:22,500
because he's a callous, you
know, he's house bastard, you

2205
02:01:22,500 --> 02:01:27,500
know, just a murderous bastard.
Well yeah, but if you look at

2206
02:01:27,500 --> 02:01:30,100
the whole context of his talk
and, you know, What is referring

2207
02:01:30,100 --> 02:01:31,800
to that?
Somebody saying at all?

2208
02:01:31,800 --> 02:01:33,700
It's not talk about actually
hurting anybody.

2209
02:01:34,200 --> 02:01:39,300
He's talking about a story from
The Exodus in which there was a

2210
02:01:39,300 --> 02:01:44,000
javelin, put through the heart
of two people and while they

2211
02:01:44,000 --> 02:01:46,300
were engaged in Intercourse.
So this is very you know, rated

2212
02:01:46,300 --> 02:01:51,800
R story and it was because God
was going to destroy the camp of

2213
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:54,400
Israel because there was a great
evil among them.

2214
02:01:54,500 --> 02:01:56,700
What was this great evil?
It was, what's known?

2215
02:01:56,700 --> 02:02:02,700
As Temple prostitution, it was a
It was a sexualized religious

2216
02:02:02,700 --> 02:02:06,700
observance of the pagans.
At the time to have these

2217
02:02:07,400 --> 02:02:10,600
essentially priestesses that
were prostitutes, that would do

2218
02:02:10,600 --> 02:02:16,800
these sexual rituals.
And God said, I will not have my

2219
02:02:16,800 --> 02:02:21,100
people doing like them, you have
to put a stop to this and if you

2220
02:02:21,100 --> 02:02:23,600
don't, I will destroy Israel,
okay?

2221
02:02:23,600 --> 02:02:27,500
So first of all, don't forget,
God is in this conversation and

2222
02:02:27,500 --> 02:02:31,700
it's still probably A symbolic,
it might not even be literal

2223
02:02:32,000 --> 02:02:33,800
again.
People take the scriptures way

2224
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:37,100
to literally way, too often,
okay, but what we have here is

2225
02:02:37,100 --> 02:02:39,000
like a parable.
We have a parable where God

2226
02:02:39,000 --> 02:02:43,700
says, if you don't stop this,
there will be consequences and

2227
02:02:43,700 --> 02:02:46,500
then someone stops this thing.
So what was bringing?

2228
02:02:46,500 --> 02:02:49,000
I'm saying he wasn't saying, he
doesn't love his wife's and he

2229
02:02:49,000 --> 02:02:52,500
wasn't saying he's gonna murder
anybody, he was saying get your

2230
02:02:52,500 --> 02:02:55,300
priorities straight.
Do not excuse evil.

2231
02:02:55,900 --> 02:02:57,700
Well I think that's the same
thing I'm saying when we need to

2232
02:02:57,700 --> 02:02:59,100
stand up against violent
rhetoric.

2233
02:02:59,200 --> 02:03:02,100
Eric I was just thinking here
for a second.

2234
02:03:02,100 --> 02:03:08,100
It's amazing to me that we have
to tell quote Scholars not to

2235
02:03:08,108 --> 02:03:11,600
take the scriptures to recognize
at least when someone's making a

2236
02:03:11,600 --> 02:03:14,100
Biblical reference making a
Biblical reference right.

2237
02:03:14,100 --> 02:03:20,700
I think so yeah and and I think
it's also important to point out

2238
02:03:20,700 --> 02:03:27,100
that As far as I can tell, as
far as it being Church,

2239
02:03:27,100 --> 02:03:30,000
sanctioned, I know of one
instance down in Saint, Pete

2240
02:03:30,000 --> 02:03:32,500
County, you probably are more
well-read than I am.

2241
02:03:32,900 --> 02:03:34,400
You're tearing.
My really just really just

2242
02:03:34,400 --> 02:03:37,500
justifications for my right.
Blood atonement with blood

2243
02:03:37,500 --> 02:03:40,800
atonement right. 1111 instance,
in Sanpete County.

2244
02:03:42,900 --> 02:03:46,800
I'm not sure if Mountain Meadows
would even come close to meeting

2245
02:03:46,800 --> 02:03:48,800
that criteria.
Main reason Mountain Meadows.

2246
02:03:48,800 --> 02:03:55,500
Sort of does is that they
executed John Lee right by the

2247
02:03:55,500 --> 02:03:56,900
firing squad.
And one of the reasons they

2248
02:03:56,907 --> 02:03:58,900
executed by firing squad was
specifically because of these

2249
02:03:58,900 --> 02:04:01,300
teachings about not hanging in
right now.

2250
02:04:01,300 --> 02:04:03,400
Of course, you would have been
hung in any other court, but

2251
02:04:03,400 --> 02:04:07,200
instead they shot him because of
the idea that execution should

2252
02:04:07,200 --> 02:04:08,900
be carried out in a Biblical
manner, right?

2253
02:04:09,300 --> 02:04:13,400
Yeah.
When bring them talks about it

2254
02:04:13,800 --> 02:04:17,600
and if you read context, it
seems to be Brigham's talking,

2255
02:04:17,600 --> 02:04:21,300
much more about a government
than a religious, right?

2256
02:04:21,300 --> 02:04:22,500
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.

2257
02:04:23,400 --> 02:04:26,200
That makes sense my off-base.
Yeah, I know I'm not.

2258
02:04:26,200 --> 02:04:29,300
That's the way I interpret it
to, I think like--look, but you

2259
02:04:29,308 --> 02:04:31,700
think that the governor have to
get the cam, you have to get the

2260
02:04:31,700 --> 02:04:34,500
context.
The governor of the territory is

2261
02:04:34,500 --> 02:04:36,400
in charge of the executive
function.

2262
02:04:36,900 --> 02:04:39,500
That means, if anyone is
convicted of a capital crime

2263
02:04:39,500 --> 02:04:43,900
during his time period and
seeing them, duly executed was

2264
02:04:43,900 --> 02:04:46,000
the duty of the executive
branch, which was basically

2265
02:04:46,000 --> 02:04:48,900
Brigham Young.
So, Brigham Young expressing,

2266
02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:51,600
his political views on a
political subject of which he

2267
02:04:51,600 --> 02:04:55,000
is, literally the Eagle officer
is perfectly reasonable thing to

2268
02:04:55,000 --> 02:04:59,600
expect him to do, absolutely,
especially you you can't you

2269
02:04:59,600 --> 02:05:04,900
can't take a whole colony of
religious minded, folks and

2270
02:05:04,900 --> 02:05:07,800
expect that that religion is not
going to bleed over it bled over

2271
02:05:07,800 --> 02:05:10,700
into our constitution in the
United States.

2272
02:05:10,700 --> 02:05:11,800
Right.
Aha.

2273
02:05:12,000 --> 02:05:17,400
So it just happens to be what
some would consider a fringe

2274
02:05:17,700 --> 02:05:19,500
religion, right?
Right.

2275
02:05:19,600 --> 02:05:23,900
And so again, I think it's more
and it's it's more ominous

2276
02:05:23,900 --> 02:05:31,900
sounding in the in its name than
it is in practice, if that it

2277
02:05:31,900 --> 02:05:34,600
ever running practice.
Is that a fair assessment?

2278
02:05:34,600 --> 02:05:36,000
Yeah.
Now, there have been other

2279
02:05:36,000 --> 02:05:38,900
situations of violence, there's
the more site War.

2280
02:05:38,900 --> 02:05:43,100
There's Mountain Meadows.
Puerto Rock will almost

2281
02:05:43,100 --> 02:05:45,000
certainly shot quite a few
people.

2282
02:05:45,800 --> 02:05:51,400
There's a couple of other really
ugly ones that happened there

2283
02:05:52,700 --> 02:05:55,500
You know, and those are those
are all sad instances but

2284
02:05:55,500 --> 02:05:57,700
they're not necessary.
And some of them are politically

2285
02:05:57,700 --> 02:05:59,700
more political than others, and
some of them were religious.

2286
02:06:01,600 --> 02:06:03,900
But here's my point, I don't
think we have to have a clean

2287
02:06:03,900 --> 02:06:07,500
history, right?
In order to stand up for a

2288
02:06:07,508 --> 02:06:09,700
better future?
No, I don't think right.

2289
02:06:09,800 --> 02:06:13,400
And so yeah, we have some
examples where people use people

2290
02:06:13,400 --> 02:06:18,100
Twisted religious doctrines and
use them as excuses to do evil.

2291
02:06:20,200 --> 02:06:24,700
First of all I think I can't
excuse a lot of statements as

2292
02:06:24,700 --> 02:06:27,900
not being what they're made out
to be in under the banner of

2293
02:06:27,900 --> 02:06:31,900
Heaven, for example.
But even if I could Couldn't we

2294
02:06:31,900 --> 02:06:34,300
can still do better, we can
still absolutely do better than

2295
02:06:34,300 --> 02:06:35,300
what we've been doing in the
past.

2296
02:06:35,500 --> 02:06:40,100
And you know the most recent
example is got to be Chad de

2297
02:06:40,100 --> 02:06:43,900
Belen Lori valo right there.
They're not even on trial yet,

2298
02:06:44,100 --> 02:06:47,600
but they're working up to it.
So, sometime this summer or fall

2299
02:06:47,600 --> 02:06:50,500
they're going to be having them
there murder trial and there's

2300
02:06:51,000 --> 02:06:55,400
there yet another religious
serial killers, right?

2301
02:06:55,500 --> 02:06:57,400
They murder Lori, vowels
children.

2302
02:06:57,400 --> 02:07:00,600
They murdered Chad a Bill's
wife.

2303
02:07:01,400 --> 02:07:03,800
They murdered somebody's
brother.

2304
02:07:04,300 --> 02:07:06,800
I don't remember whose brother
was Laurie, was brother Chad's

2305
02:07:06,800 --> 02:07:09,600
brother, and probably a couple
of other people.

2306
02:07:11,900 --> 02:07:14,000
And, of course, especially
disturbing is that murdering

2307
02:07:14,000 --> 02:07:16,500
Lori's children, right?
Do you know what I mean?

2308
02:07:16,500 --> 02:07:19,500
Um, there's just absolutely no
excuse for any of that.

2309
02:07:19,500 --> 02:07:23,800
And, and when you had at a
certain point, Chad table, looks

2310
02:07:23,800 --> 02:07:29,000
like this upright good, Mormon
man, whose eloquent and is an

2311
02:07:29,000 --> 02:07:30,600
author and all this sort of
thing.

2312
02:07:31,400 --> 02:07:33,000
Everybody was like, oh yeah,
he's one of us.

2313
02:07:33,000 --> 02:07:36,000
He's one of us now.
Everyone's quick to be like, oh

2314
02:07:36,008 --> 02:07:38,500
no, he's not a real moment.
He believed in weird doctrines.

2315
02:07:38,500 --> 02:07:40,300
Well yeah, I did believe in
where doctors but where did he

2316
02:07:40,300 --> 02:07:42,900
get his start here to start in
the Church of Jesus Christ of

2317
02:07:42,907 --> 02:07:45,200
Latter-day Saints?
He just started twisting those

2318
02:07:45,200 --> 02:07:46,700
doctrines.
He started turning it into

2319
02:07:46,700 --> 02:07:48,100
something weird.
Right?

2320
02:07:48,700 --> 02:07:53,800
And when it starts looking
violent, that's when it was

2321
02:07:53,800 --> 02:07:57,200
everybody in his words job.
Everybody at the conference as

2322
02:07:57,200 --> 02:08:00,600
he spoke at everybody in any of
those groups before.

2323
02:08:00,600 --> 02:08:03,200
It turns Two murders should have
started telling him.

2324
02:08:03,800 --> 02:08:08,500
No you this is sounding this.
This could be used to justify

2325
02:08:08,500 --> 02:08:10,900
violence.
You can't mean it that way.

2326
02:08:11,000 --> 02:08:12,900
You must mean it some other way
because that's not what we

2327
02:08:12,900 --> 02:08:16,000
believe and just standing up to
him and then he wouldn't have he

2328
02:08:16,000 --> 02:08:19,900
wouldn't have gone though.
So far his doctrines are

2329
02:08:19,900 --> 02:08:23,800
admittedly super weird and not
super Orthodox.

2330
02:08:23,800 --> 02:08:27,000
They're not what I would say is
my beliefs or anybody's beliefs.

2331
02:08:27,000 --> 02:08:29,500
That I know.
I don't think he and I could be

2332
02:08:29,500 --> 02:08:31,900
wrong.
And but the Have a Mormon, rude,

2333
02:08:31,900 --> 02:08:34,000
I guess is my ride.
He's got some basis in

2334
02:08:34,000 --> 02:08:36,400
Mormonism, even though his
beliefs turned into like zombie

2335
02:08:36,400 --> 02:08:41,500
apocalypse, reincarnation crazy
stuff that I don't believe at

2336
02:08:41,500 --> 02:08:44,700
its heart, it's still
fundamentally, Mormon in nature

2337
02:08:44,700 --> 02:08:46,300
and that's where it came from
originally.

2338
02:08:46,300 --> 02:08:49,000
That's where he got his start.
So, how did he get from point?

2339
02:08:49,000 --> 02:08:51,200
A to point B?
He had to travel there somehow

2340
02:08:51,200 --> 02:08:53,200
before you got into, like, let's
murder people.

2341
02:08:53,700 --> 02:08:57,400
He had to start with the same
first four principles and onto

2342
02:08:57,400 --> 02:08:58,800
the gospels.
The gospel I did.

2343
02:08:58,800 --> 02:09:00,700
He had to start with the same
Sunday school lesson sided.

2344
02:09:01,000 --> 02:09:04,200
Have to start with the same
primary songs that I did.

2345
02:09:05,700 --> 02:09:08,600
At what point did he diverged
from the path of peace and go

2346
02:09:08,600 --> 02:09:12,100
into the path of murder?
Whenever we see somebody's on

2347
02:09:12,100 --> 02:09:15,000
that path, we don't have to wait
for them to get to the end

2348
02:09:15,000 --> 02:09:18,500
before we say no, no.
Get back on the path of Peace,

2349
02:09:19,100 --> 02:09:22,800
get off the path that leads to,
to justifying this kind of

2350
02:09:22,808 --> 02:09:25,200
violence.
And I don't know if that would

2351
02:09:25,200 --> 02:09:28,600
have stopped him, but I think
that the consciences of a lot of

2352
02:09:28,600 --> 02:09:31,600
people who knew him would be a
lot clearer right now.

2353
02:09:31,600 --> 02:09:34,000
If they'd stood up and maybe
they could have stopped it or

2354
02:09:34,000 --> 02:09:35,900
maybe at least they could have
stopped him sooner.

2355
02:09:36,300 --> 02:09:37,500
And so if you're ready, we'll go
to died.

2356
02:09:38,200 --> 02:09:44,400
You know, I think we talked a
lot about the other e right of

2357
02:09:44,400 --> 02:09:49,400
people and I feel like with in
Mormonism, it's super easy to do

2358
02:09:49,700 --> 02:09:56,600
because, uh, because The very I
shouldn't say the very the, the

2359
02:09:56,600 --> 02:10:00,400
sole basis but but one of the
big pillars was God's chosen

2360
02:10:00,400 --> 02:10:01,500
people.
Uh-huh.

2361
02:10:01,500 --> 02:10:04,900
You're going back to bill.
So as I've looked at that and I

2362
02:10:04,907 --> 02:10:08,300
thought a lot about it over the
last week, how do we prevent

2363
02:10:08,300 --> 02:10:11,800
that other earring while we
still hold that place of?

2364
02:10:12,000 --> 02:10:14,400
Okay, we have a special
responsibility.

2365
02:10:14,400 --> 02:10:17,500
I think we have to let go of the
ego, we really do because

2366
02:10:17,600 --> 02:10:20,600
otherwise, you know, if you're
all, I'm going to God's chosen

2367
02:10:20,600 --> 02:10:24,000
people, the kind of Pride that
that breeds the kind of humor.

2368
02:10:24,200 --> 02:10:27,500
That breeds because well, God
will justify his profit.

2369
02:10:27,500 --> 02:10:29,400
That's one of the ones that
that's one of the things I

2370
02:10:29,407 --> 02:10:31,300
should have brought up earlier,
really ticks me off.

2371
02:10:31,300 --> 02:10:33,300
That one is one of the most
dangerous false doctrines,

2372
02:10:33,300 --> 02:10:36,800
anybody quoting that
unironically call them out.

2373
02:10:36,800 --> 02:10:39,600
That's a red line.
When they start saying, God will

2374
02:10:39,600 --> 02:10:42,600
justify his profit.
No, he won't.

2375
02:10:42,900 --> 02:10:48,700
God will God expects us to step
up and stop these

2376
02:10:48,700 --> 02:10:52,200
self-proclaimed profits before
they commit violence.

2377
02:10:52,200 --> 02:10:53,500
Right?
Right.

2378
02:10:53,500 --> 02:10:58,900
And and and so, I thought, what
does Letting Go, the eagle look

2379
02:10:58,900 --> 02:11:03,100
like in a practical sense, for
someone who believes in this?

2380
02:11:03,100 --> 02:11:05,500
Chosen people theology sure,
right?

2381
02:11:05,500 --> 02:11:10,700
And as I thought about that, I
got to it looks like servant

2382
02:11:10,700 --> 02:11:14,100
leadership.
It doesn't look like

2383
02:11:14,300 --> 02:11:17,900
self-aggrandizement.
It doesn't look like look at me

2384
02:11:17,900 --> 02:11:20,100
because I'm special, you've got
to recognize them special.

2385
02:11:20,100 --> 02:11:24,000
It looks like let me wash your
feet, right?

2386
02:11:24,100 --> 02:11:29,000
Let me serve you, let me feed
you, let me close you that I

2387
02:11:29,000 --> 02:11:33,400
think is the chosen that the
Lord speaks up, you know, one of

2388
02:11:33,400 --> 02:11:35,400
the best examples of this in
modern society.

2389
02:11:35,400 --> 02:11:39,800
I think we could definitely
learn from is orthodox, Jews

2390
02:11:40,800 --> 02:11:46,600
like the habad organization.
They are group of Orthodox Jews

2391
02:11:47,100 --> 02:11:52,000
who understand themselves to be
chosen people and because their

2392
02:11:52,000 --> 02:11:55,500
Orthodox in their beliefs, If
they take their religion, very,

2393
02:11:55,500 --> 02:11:57,500
very seriously.
They enact that religion in the

2394
02:11:57,500 --> 02:12:02,700
world, could they use passages
from the Torah or the profits to

2395
02:12:02,700 --> 02:12:05,200
justify violence?
Well, yeah, we've seen people do

2396
02:12:05,200 --> 02:12:09,100
that when they misinterpret them
according to our understanding,

2397
02:12:09,100 --> 02:12:10,900
right?
But they don't instead they

2398
02:12:10,900 --> 02:12:15,000
interpret it to mean that they
have a duty to heal the world to

2399
02:12:15,000 --> 02:12:17,700
do good, right?
And so that's the thing.

2400
02:12:18,000 --> 02:12:21,800
When there's two possible
interpretations if you're

2401
02:12:21,800 --> 02:12:24,000
choosing the one that justifies
violence instead of the one that

2402
02:12:24,000 --> 02:12:28,700
promotes peace, You're
interpreting it wrong, right?

2403
02:12:28,700 --> 02:12:32,500
And so, you know, they have the
same, they have the same Torah,

2404
02:12:32,500 --> 02:12:36,900
we do they have it in there as
in the Book of Joshua and in

2405
02:12:36,900 --> 02:12:39,600
Samuel about utterly destroying
their enemies and things like

2406
02:12:39,600 --> 02:12:43,200
that but look at the way they're
enacting those scriptures in the

2407
02:12:43,200 --> 02:12:49,600
world Chabad teaches peace and
they promote peace.

2408
02:12:49,600 --> 02:12:52,500
And they want to see, you know,
and this is especially important

2409
02:12:52,500 --> 02:12:54,900
because of the
israeli-palestinian conflict, we

2410
02:12:54,900 --> 02:12:56,900
need more Israelis Willing to
stand up for know.

2411
02:12:56,900 --> 02:13:02,000
We have to choose peace, even in
the face of violence because

2412
02:13:02,000 --> 02:13:05,200
that's the only way you really
resolve these in transient

2413
02:13:05,400 --> 02:13:07,100
conflicts, these horrible
conflicts.

2414
02:13:07,400 --> 02:13:11,000
And so ask, you know, almost any
Jew will always stand up for any

2415
02:13:11,000 --> 02:13:13,800
race.
Any religion, any one who's

2416
02:13:13,800 --> 02:13:16,100
being persecuted?
The, you know what I mean?

2417
02:13:16,100 --> 02:13:18,900
They'll be the sum of the first
to stand up and say, no, you

2418
02:13:18,900 --> 02:13:20,800
know what I mean?
These these might not be our

2419
02:13:20,800 --> 02:13:22,000
people with.
These are our people because you

2420
02:13:22,000 --> 02:13:24,000
don't get to persecute anybody,
you don't, you know, they'll

2421
02:13:24,000 --> 02:13:27,800
call you out.
Even while they maintain their

2422
02:13:27,800 --> 02:13:32,000
own distinct identity and
religion and, and practice, they

2423
02:13:32,000 --> 02:13:36,200
don't have to just lose their,
their, their virtues, or their

2424
02:13:36,200 --> 02:13:38,100
principles in order to defend
the rights of others.

2425
02:13:38,100 --> 02:13:40,200
I think we can do the same
thing.

2426
02:13:40,200 --> 02:13:45,100
Essentially, like you were
saying earlier, lgbtq

2427
02:13:45,100 --> 02:13:49,100
communities, we need to
recognize that those

2428
02:13:49,100 --> 02:13:53,600
communities, and their rights
are fundamental to their dignity

2429
02:13:53,600 --> 02:13:56,000
as human beings, and we have to
be ready to protect.

2430
02:13:56,000 --> 02:13:58,500
Detect them in those rights, no
matter what we think of their

2431
02:13:58,500 --> 02:14:01,500
religion or their lifestyle,
that's their.

2432
02:14:01,500 --> 02:14:04,000
Right to choose that religion,
to choose that lifestyle, to

2433
02:14:04,000 --> 02:14:08,300
choose that way of being, we
have to defend them because they

2434
02:14:08,300 --> 02:14:11,000
also need to defend us that.
That's right.

2435
02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:13,300
You don't.
And this is the part that gets

2436
02:14:13,300 --> 02:14:16,600
conflated, right?
And you don't have to give your

2437
02:14:16,600 --> 02:14:20,000
seal of approval on their
lifestyle.

2438
02:14:20,000 --> 02:14:23,400
You have to be willing to defend
their, right to live.

2439
02:14:23,400 --> 02:14:28,800
It even if you think that, Is
that it's not ideal that it's

2440
02:14:28,800 --> 02:14:30,500
the wrong way to live.
Yeah, you know.

2441
02:14:30,900 --> 02:14:33,800
Yeah.
You have to defend that right

2442
02:14:33,900 --> 02:14:40,000
because here's I remember I got
the opportunity once to have

2443
02:14:40,000 --> 02:14:43,700
in-depth talks with an old steak
patriarch who was Wei Weis.

2444
02:14:44,200 --> 02:14:46,400
And this was when I was first
coming into the church.

2445
02:14:46,500 --> 02:14:50,300
He said, do you know the one
place God will never intervene

2446
02:14:51,100 --> 02:14:56,600
like where your will, right?
Right?

2447
02:14:56,600 --> 02:15:00,000
That's the only thing.
God will never interfere with

2448
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:03,600
your will if you desire.
I so if it's so important, that

2449
02:15:03,600 --> 02:15:05,800
God's not willing to get
involved.

2450
02:15:06,300 --> 02:15:09,000
Hmm.
What makes you think that we're

2451
02:15:09,000 --> 02:15:10,100
qualified?
Well on?

2452
02:15:10,100 --> 02:15:12,900
This is one of the unique ways,
in which, I mean, this is worthy

2453
02:15:12,900 --> 02:15:15,100
of a whole lot of discussion.
One of the ways in which

2454
02:15:15,100 --> 02:15:19,100
Mormonism attempts to solve the
problem of the question of evil

2455
02:15:19,400 --> 02:15:23,100
is that we do believe in a
non-interventionist God, but not

2456
02:15:23,100 --> 02:15:24,600
necessarily as far as the
deists.

2457
02:15:24,600 --> 02:15:27,200
Do we believe that God can
intervene Yeah, but he acts

2458
02:15:27,200 --> 02:15:30,800
through ordinances through
priesthood, you know, he Reveals

2459
02:15:30,800 --> 02:15:33,900
His will that way and so forth.
But that's different than saying

2460
02:15:33,900 --> 02:15:39,000
that that God just interference,
right?

2461
02:15:39,000 --> 02:15:41,500
He's not going to stop a
murderer.

2462
02:15:42,600 --> 02:15:47,700
Instead he's going to make his
going to raise the person who's

2463
02:15:47,700 --> 02:15:50,400
killed from the dead.
He's going to make it right in

2464
02:15:50,400 --> 02:15:52,700
his own way in the new in the
world to come.

2465
02:15:52,700 --> 02:15:59,100
You know, and but that's
different than assuming that

2466
02:15:59,100 --> 02:16:00,400
that God should always
intervene.

2467
02:16:00,400 --> 02:16:02,100
And so, yeah, that's that's one
of the ways that we try to

2468
02:16:02,108 --> 02:16:04,200
attempt to solve that problem.
How does evil exist?

2469
02:16:04,200 --> 02:16:06,600
Why does it exist?
Because if that's what someone

2470
02:16:06,600 --> 02:16:10,700
chooses God will not interfere,
right?

2471
02:16:11,400 --> 02:16:13,900
All right.
So we've covered a lot but I

2472
02:16:13,900 --> 02:16:17,100
want to bring it back to one
thing and this is where I kind

2473
02:16:17,100 --> 02:16:19,300
of want to wrap up.
This is the last idea.

2474
02:16:19,300 --> 02:16:21,800
I want to explore unless you got
others that you feel are

2475
02:16:21,800 --> 02:16:25,200
important.
Because I think this is the

2476
02:16:25,200 --> 02:16:28,600
thing that that has been
weighing on my heart, the most

2477
02:16:28,800 --> 02:16:33,900
all week and especially at 3
a.m. last night after I got done

2478
02:16:33,900 --> 02:16:36,600
watching the two episodes.
Hmm.

2479
02:16:36,700 --> 02:16:40,400
And I know somewhere, there's an
LDS person.

2480
02:16:40,600 --> 02:16:45,299
There's a Mormon person there is
somebody who may be struggling

2481
02:16:45,299 --> 02:16:52,299
with their faith anyway, and
they just got a big dose of the

2482
02:16:52,299 --> 02:16:54,400
Lafferty's.
Oh, No, right.

2483
02:16:54,400 --> 02:16:56,100
Let's I'm sluggish traumatic
thing.

2484
02:16:56,100 --> 02:16:59,900
So what's make up a hypothetical
you encounter?

2485
02:16:59,900 --> 02:17:03,700
Someone who's like, I don't
think I can can believe in

2486
02:17:03,700 --> 02:17:05,000
Mormonism anymore.
Ben.

2487
02:17:06,400 --> 02:17:10,400
I don't, I don't think I can do
this any longer because look at

2488
02:17:10,400 --> 02:17:13,799
this, this is just horrific what
you say to that person.

2489
02:17:18,000 --> 02:17:23,799
Is are tough ones, right?
First of all, because my my

2490
02:17:23,799 --> 02:17:27,900
reasons for Faith are my own
there, in my heart, there in my

2491
02:17:27,900 --> 02:17:31,500
experience.
You really can't communicate a

2492
02:17:31,500 --> 02:17:34,600
testimony to another person.
Fully you can talk about your

2493
02:17:34,600 --> 02:17:37,000
own belief or your own
experience, but people have to

2494
02:17:37,008 --> 02:17:44,000
experience for themselves. and,
I don't know.

2495
02:17:45,400 --> 02:17:48,700
I don't know what they actually
need.

2496
02:17:48,700 --> 02:17:55,700
Where's the problem coming from?
They're real question might be

2497
02:17:55,700 --> 02:17:59,299
coming from a place of they
want.

2498
02:18:00,700 --> 02:18:03,700
To not believe, maybe there's a
burden in their life that

2499
02:18:03,700 --> 02:18:07,299
religion looks like it's a
burden to carry and it's not

2500
02:18:07,299 --> 02:18:09,900
benefiting them.
Sometimes people feel like

2501
02:18:09,900 --> 02:18:13,000
religion stifles their freedom
instead of gives them more

2502
02:18:13,000 --> 02:18:16,600
freedom or more insight or that
it's myopic instead of

2503
02:18:16,700 --> 02:18:21,700
enlightening, well, I want them
to be able to let go of that

2504
02:18:21,700 --> 02:18:24,000
kind of religion.
I guess, I guess what I'm trying

2505
02:18:24,000 --> 02:18:28,799
to say is that when someone
comes to me with big questions

2506
02:18:28,799 --> 02:18:32,100
like that, I don't necessarily
We think that it's a bad thing

2507
02:18:32,900 --> 02:18:35,500
because I think faith is found
in a faith crisis.

2508
02:18:35,799 --> 02:18:40,500
I believe that I'm actually very
eloquently though.

2509
02:18:40,500 --> 02:18:42,900
I don't think he's the
originator of the idea Andrew

2510
02:18:42,900 --> 02:18:47,500
Garfield during the Q&A session
after the premier.

2511
02:18:47,700 --> 02:18:52,400
Andrew Garfield, who plays, Jeb
Kyrie said, and he's, he'll be

2512
02:18:52,400 --> 02:18:54,600
quoted for this a lot because it
was really good.

2513
02:18:54,700 --> 02:18:59,299
He said, I don't know that.
A life of certainty is a life of

2514
02:18:59,299 --> 02:19:03,700
faith.
A life of Doubt is a life of

2515
02:19:03,700 --> 02:19:06,200
Faith, something to that effect
that faith is.

2516
02:19:06,200 --> 02:19:09,600
Do we found in your doubts?
And so when I see somebody who's

2517
02:19:09,600 --> 02:19:13,500
question their faith seriously
because they see maybe for the

2518
02:19:13,500 --> 02:19:18,400
first time, the real darkness
that exists in this world and in

2519
02:19:18,400 --> 02:19:20,600
our communities because this is
our community.

2520
02:19:20,600 --> 02:19:25,000
We're talking about Sometimes
people they because they want to

2521
02:19:25,000 --> 02:19:27,400
other it.
They might say well if that's

2522
02:19:27,400 --> 02:19:30,100
what this community is stands
for, then I'm leaving.

2523
02:19:30,100 --> 02:19:33,900
I'm out because I need to
maintain an us-versus-them where

2524
02:19:33,900 --> 02:19:37,200
I protect my own mind, saying
I'm good guy.

2525
02:19:37,299 --> 02:19:39,299
I'm one of the good guys.
They're the bad guys.

2526
02:19:39,799 --> 02:19:41,900
And so this and this one of the
traps that a lot of ex-mormons

2527
02:19:41,900 --> 02:19:44,200
fall into.
They assume that because they

2528
02:19:44,200 --> 02:19:47,400
found evil in their old
community that if they leave

2529
02:19:47,400 --> 02:19:52,700
that community, All evil, all
bad things can be Mormon and all

2530
02:19:52,700 --> 02:19:54,800
good, things can be, whatever
their future is.

2531
02:19:55,600 --> 02:19:57,600
And then, of course not knowing
where their moral boundaries are

2532
02:19:57,600 --> 02:19:58,900
some of them struggle quite a
bit.

2533
02:20:01,000 --> 02:20:03,800
Once they've lost their faith
because they no longer have the,

2534
02:20:03,800 --> 02:20:07,700
a mooring, a foundation upon
which to build their world view,

2535
02:20:07,700 --> 02:20:11,200
it's very disorienting.
But I don't think that the

2536
02:20:11,208 --> 02:20:13,800
disorientation at that first
point is the bad thing.

2537
02:20:13,800 --> 02:20:17,000
I think it's it's the big
question is, how do we deal with

2538
02:20:17,000 --> 02:20:20,000
it?
And so I think when somebody

2539
02:20:20,000 --> 02:20:22,200
views something like under the
banner of heaven, and they say

2540
02:20:22,200 --> 02:20:25,100
I'm losing my faith because of
this, I'm beginning to see

2541
02:20:25,100 --> 02:20:27,800
Mormonism and a totally new
light it now looks to me like

2542
02:20:27,800 --> 02:20:31,800
just it's a con man and
Mormonism is dangerous false

2543
02:20:31,800 --> 02:20:34,600
doctrine that it's selfish by
Nature that it leads to murder,

2544
02:20:35,100 --> 02:20:38,400
you know, all of the krakauer's
whole thesis essentially.

2545
02:20:40,800 --> 02:20:45,300
I would, I would first really
try to warn them to recognize

2546
02:20:45,300 --> 02:20:48,200
that.
That darkness, that evil, that

2547
02:20:48,200 --> 02:20:50,500
you're recognizing.
It's real.

2548
02:20:52,300 --> 02:20:54,600
But you can't just dismiss it
that easily.

2549
02:20:55,000 --> 02:20:57,700
You can't dismiss it as easily
as just being like, Oh it's it's

2550
02:20:57,700 --> 02:20:59,800
a problem with religion or it's
a problem with Mormonism.

2551
02:21:01,200 --> 02:21:04,100
Otherwise you don't learn the
lesson, you don't mature past it

2552
02:21:04,400 --> 02:21:07,900
in order to mature spiritually,
you have to sit in your doubt

2553
02:21:08,000 --> 02:21:13,100
and embrace the darkness itself,
see that darkness and I know

2554
02:21:13,100 --> 02:21:16,700
that I cannot remember who it
is, but I know it came from

2555
02:21:16,700 --> 02:21:19,700
somebody in the 70s or 80s in
the LDS church.

2556
02:21:20,200 --> 02:21:23,100
He talks a little bit about how
in our doubts.

2557
02:21:23,100 --> 02:21:27,200
We reach the point in the
darkness where we cannot see the

2558
02:21:27,200 --> 02:21:31,500
next step.
But if we will step forward in

2559
02:21:31,500 --> 02:21:34,600
faith, we will see that the way
is lighted ahead, just a step or

2560
02:21:34,608 --> 02:21:37,800
two.
This was a powerful analogy to

2561
02:21:37,800 --> 02:21:39,900
me.
It's also an analogy made by

2562
02:21:40,100 --> 02:21:43,400
Yogi Rama chakra who turns out
was actually one of the teachers

2563
02:21:43,400 --> 02:21:45,900
of the theosophical society
about a hundred.

2564
02:21:45,900 --> 02:21:49,700
And some years ago anyway, they
are to know that is anyway, but

2565
02:21:49,700 --> 02:21:55,900
I appreciated it because he he
brought in the idea that faith

2566
02:21:55,900 --> 02:21:59,200
is jumping into the darkness
knowing where you'll land.

2567
02:22:01,000 --> 02:22:06,000
And he used the example of the
HIM lead kindly light, which is

2568
02:22:06,000 --> 02:22:09,300
says, you know, I do not ask to
see the distant, seen one steps

2569
02:22:09,300 --> 02:22:12,800
enough for me.
And so if you picture that him I

2570
02:22:12,808 --> 02:22:16,400
imagine it being much like the
vision of Lehi, you're lost in

2571
02:22:16,400 --> 02:22:20,600
The Mists of Darkness, you know,
that somewhere far away, lies

2572
02:22:20,600 --> 02:22:22,700
the sacred rest somewhere out
there.

2573
02:22:22,700 --> 02:22:24,800
There is a better world
somewhere out there.

2574
02:22:24,800 --> 02:22:29,500
There is goodness and truth but
right now all I see is the dark.

2575
02:22:30,700 --> 02:22:33,700
If I could just have a little
light to take one step in the

2576
02:22:33,700 --> 02:22:37,600
right direction, then you find
that you can progress.

2577
02:22:37,600 --> 02:22:41,400
And so in the Mormon view from
the lehi's dream, for example,

2578
02:22:41,600 --> 02:22:45,400
Lee I found himself lost
terribly lost in the Darkness.

2579
02:22:47,300 --> 02:22:50,400
And at first he tried to follow
a man, but the man couldn't

2580
02:22:50,400 --> 02:22:52,100
leave him.
He was still lost in the

2581
02:22:52,100 --> 02:22:53,700
darkness and then he prayed to
God.

2582
02:22:53,700 --> 02:22:56,400
God, help me.
And that's when he saw a light

2583
02:22:56,800 --> 02:22:59,200
and turned out.
The light was the tree and he

2584
02:22:59,200 --> 02:23:02,400
saw also the other people in the
dream were lost in the darkness,

2585
02:23:02,700 --> 02:23:05,800
but if they could bump into this
Rod of iron, if they could bump

2586
02:23:05,800 --> 02:23:09,300
into this handrail even though
they couldn't see they like

2587
02:23:09,300 --> 02:23:11,400
white, there's a rail here.
What's this railing?

2588
02:23:11,900 --> 02:23:13,800
And they would fall and they
would literally says

2589
02:23:13,800 --> 02:23:17,800
hand-over-hand the rod, right?
In other words just holding on

2590
02:23:17,800 --> 02:23:20,300
one little bit of time, he would
leave them out of the dark.

2591
02:23:21,100 --> 02:23:23,100
Basically what happens with
doubt with any of these Faith

2592
02:23:23,100 --> 02:23:26,900
crisis.
Is that they may have been lost

2593
02:23:26,900 --> 02:23:28,800
in the dark this whole time, but
they just didn't know it.

2594
02:23:28,900 --> 02:23:30,900
They weren't aware of their
awful situation.

2595
02:23:32,000 --> 02:23:34,100
And something like under the
banner of Heaven, are these

2596
02:23:34,100 --> 02:23:38,300
other things can make us awaken
to very serious issues.

2597
02:23:38,400 --> 02:23:41,200
We've never struggled with
before, how do I know if just?

2598
02:23:41,200 --> 02:23:43,300
So there's a true Prophet, do I
believe this?

2599
02:23:43,300 --> 02:23:46,600
Because I was taught it in
primary, I don't even know

2600
02:23:46,600 --> 02:23:48,800
anything about Joseph Smith,
frankly, if all I know is the

2601
02:23:48,808 --> 02:23:53,900
church, curriculum Joseph Smith,
lived a complex and powerful,

2602
02:23:53,900 --> 02:23:57,500
and interesting life.
But the correlated version I

2603
02:23:57,500 --> 02:24:01,300
could tell you in just a few
sentences boy asked God which

2604
02:24:01,300 --> 02:24:03,000
church to join.
He saw heavenly father Jesus

2605
02:24:03,000 --> 02:24:05,000
Christ Moroni appeared.
Two terms of the Book of Mormon

2606
02:24:05,000 --> 02:24:07,300
and then he was super awesome
until the bad guys killed him.

2607
02:24:07,700 --> 02:24:10,100
That's that's basically all
you're going to learn, right?

2608
02:24:11,100 --> 02:24:13,200
But it doesn't make me believe
in Joe Smith less than of the

2609
02:24:13,200 --> 02:24:15,300
complexities in the
interestingness of his life,

2610
02:24:15,700 --> 02:24:20,600
makes me believe in doing
anymore because I see through

2611
02:24:20,600 --> 02:24:24,300
him and his struggle, both the
humanity and the divinity.

2612
02:24:25,100 --> 02:24:28,600
Of what the human condition is.
But how did I arrive there?

2613
02:24:28,600 --> 02:24:31,100
I only arrived there through the
darkness of trying to struggle

2614
02:24:31,100 --> 02:24:32,700
with those things.
So what am I trying to say?

2615
02:24:33,600 --> 02:24:36,300
One thing I would Point people
to if they don't want to accept

2616
02:24:36,300 --> 02:24:37,700
religious Authority, maybe
they're like.

2617
02:24:37,700 --> 02:24:39,100
Well, yeah, but Benjamin's a
Believer.

2618
02:24:39,100 --> 02:24:40,100
I don't want to listen to
Benjamin.

2619
02:24:40,800 --> 02:24:44,700
I would say think about some of
the uni and psychology, maybe

2620
02:24:44,700 --> 02:24:47,500
Union archetypes, incorporating
The Shadow.

2621
02:24:49,300 --> 02:24:51,600
If you want, if you need, if you
want to actually understand The

2622
02:24:51,600 --> 02:24:55,400
Human Condition and what causes
these evils to exist and what's

2623
02:24:55,400 --> 02:24:57,400
really going on?
You have to embrace that.

2624
02:24:57,400 --> 02:24:59,900
It's not that you can't just
separate yourself from it by

2625
02:24:59,900 --> 02:25:01,500
saying.
Oh, that bad stuff was in

2626
02:25:01,508 --> 02:25:03,400
Mormonism.
Now I'm an ex-mormon and now I'm

2627
02:25:03,400 --> 02:25:06,100
free from that.
No, I'm sorry.

2628
02:25:06,100 --> 02:25:09,900
The darkness is still there
because it was in you all along,

2629
02:25:10,000 --> 02:25:12,700
right?
And this is why a good man is

2630
02:25:12,700 --> 02:25:17,400
not necessarily a weak man, he's
a man under control, I would say

2631
02:25:18,000 --> 02:25:22,900
a real Adult isn't a person who
has rejected the darkness.

2632
02:25:23,200 --> 02:25:26,500
It's a person is recognized the
darkness within their own

2633
02:25:26,500 --> 02:25:31,800
capability for evil and then
they've chosen not to do it.

2634
02:25:31,900 --> 02:25:35,700
So for example, I do not think
of a pacifist being a pacifist,

2635
02:25:36,300 --> 02:25:40,500
you know, philosophically a
pacifist is not a man who

2636
02:25:40,500 --> 02:25:43,300
doesn't like violence and
therefore just tries to avoid it

2637
02:25:43,600 --> 02:25:45,500
a pacifist.
A man is a man who fully

2638
02:25:45,500 --> 02:25:47,600
understands and Embraces
violence.

2639
02:25:48,400 --> 02:25:52,700
Enough to choose to stand
between the violent and the

2640
02:25:52,700 --> 02:25:55,400
innocent.
A real pacifist is someone like

2641
02:25:55,600 --> 02:25:59,400
like Gandhi, who was willing to
say, I will make my own body to

2642
02:25:59,400 --> 02:26:02,400
sacrifice.
You know, one of the most

2643
02:26:02,400 --> 02:26:04,900
powerful moments, it's in the
film, of course, of Gandhi.

2644
02:26:04,900 --> 02:26:08,700
And it's just a powerful moment
in his biography was when he's

2645
02:26:08,700 --> 02:26:12,800
in South Africa and they wanted
to make all of the Indians

2646
02:26:12,900 --> 02:26:16,500
register with these cards and
things like that with there.

2647
02:26:16,800 --> 02:26:19,600
And they They were doing a
protest where they were going to

2648
02:26:19,600 --> 02:26:22,500
take the cards one by one, read
the names and burn them.

2649
02:26:23,500 --> 02:26:28,500
And the at that time, connected
to Britain, write these police

2650
02:26:28,500 --> 02:26:31,400
show up and they're like, it's a
crime to burn your.

2651
02:26:31,800 --> 02:26:33,700
It's not draft card, but that's
the one thing we did in our

2652
02:26:33,700 --> 02:26:34,500
country.
There's similar.

2653
02:26:34,700 --> 02:26:36,900
It's not you know it's just a
registration card.

2654
02:26:36,900 --> 02:26:38,900
You can't burn them, it belongs
to us.

2655
02:26:38,900 --> 02:26:40,200
This is we're breaking this
purchase.

2656
02:26:40,200 --> 02:26:43,900
You have to go home and he just
ignored them and he read the

2657
02:26:43,900 --> 02:26:45,700
name and he burned it right in
front of him and they were like,

2658
02:26:45,700 --> 02:26:47,800
no, we got to stop him.
So then went and one of the

2659
02:26:47,808 --> 02:26:50,700
guys, Some with a billy club and
he picks up the next one, and he

2660
02:26:50,708 --> 02:26:53,900
reads it and he burns it.
And the guy hits him again until

2661
02:26:53,900 --> 02:26:56,300
they knock them on the ground.
And they're like, you're going

2662
02:26:56,300 --> 02:26:58,500
to give up and disperse now.
And he's like no.

2663
02:26:58,500 --> 02:27:01,400
And he crawls while they're
beating him back to the pile.

2664
02:27:01,400 --> 02:27:03,800
Reads the name crawls.
Back to the fire burns again

2665
02:27:03,900 --> 02:27:05,900
right at.
So I mean what's my point?

2666
02:27:05,900 --> 02:27:10,500
My point is Gandhi for example,
who's one of our great prophets

2667
02:27:10,500 --> 02:27:15,600
of pacifism?
He wasn't a man unfamiliar with

2668
02:27:15,600 --> 02:27:19,600
violence, right?
He was a man who simply decided

2669
02:27:19,600 --> 02:27:23,400
his reaction to violence would
be through this radical Act of

2670
02:27:23,408 --> 02:27:26,000
self-sacrifice.
So, so, what's my point?

2671
02:27:26,100 --> 02:27:28,500
My point is that when someone
comes to me and says the losing

2672
02:27:28,500 --> 02:27:33,100
their faith, I would like out
what I would point out to them a

2673
02:27:33,100 --> 02:27:37,400
few things first.
You're not losing your faith.

2674
02:27:37,600 --> 02:27:40,700
You might be gaining, you faith
for the first time in your, in

2675
02:27:40,700 --> 02:27:43,700
your life.
Before this what you called,

2676
02:27:43,700 --> 02:27:49,000
Faith may have only been belief.
May have only been default the

2677
02:27:49,000 --> 02:27:50,600
your raised this way.
You were taught it.

2678
02:27:50,600 --> 02:27:53,800
Couldn't just be programming,
your default operating sister do

2679
02:27:53,800 --> 02:27:55,500
for default, operating system,
it could just be your

2680
02:27:55,500 --> 02:27:59,800
programming, but now that you're
questioning now, you have the

2681
02:27:59,800 --> 02:28:01,300
opportunity to have a real
Faith.

2682
02:28:01,300 --> 02:28:05,000
Like Andrew Garfield was saying
a life of faith is a life of

2683
02:28:05,000 --> 02:28:09,200
doubt.
It's a life where you you don't

2684
02:28:09,200 --> 02:28:12,800
dismiss the darkness you
confront it, right?

2685
02:28:13,900 --> 02:28:18,300
And the other thing I would
point out to them is many, many

2686
02:28:18,300 --> 02:28:21,400
prophets and sages from all
religions throughout all time.

2687
02:28:21,900 --> 02:28:26,100
They came through this Darkness,
so don't think that it's

2688
02:28:26,100 --> 02:28:29,600
hopeless.
You two can go through this into

2689
02:28:29,600 --> 02:28:32,400
a life of much greater Insight
capacity and faith.

2690
02:28:33,700 --> 02:28:37,000
But I but again they're going to
have to walk that path

2691
02:28:37,000 --> 02:28:39,400
themselves, they're going to
have to experience it and that's

2692
02:28:39,400 --> 02:28:41,800
one of the reasons why I'm
always a little bit reluctant to

2693
02:28:41,800 --> 02:28:43,500
tell someone what they should
believe.

2694
02:28:44,900 --> 02:28:47,300
Because they're going to have to
find it.

2695
02:28:47,300 --> 02:28:49,400
Now, if they say, well what
about this question or what

2696
02:28:49,400 --> 02:28:52,800
about that question?
I'm I can point them to the, the

2697
02:28:52,800 --> 02:28:57,100
answers that the Ancients and
the modern prophets and the the

2698
02:28:57,100 --> 02:29:00,200
guru's and the whatnot, a
various religions have answered

2699
02:29:00,200 --> 02:29:02,400
those questions.
But again, none of it.

2700
02:29:02,500 --> 02:29:05,700
None of its real until they go
through their own Dark Night of

2701
02:29:05,700 --> 02:29:08,400
the soul and find it for
themselves.

2702
02:29:09,200 --> 02:29:14,300
Last one, the other ARCA typed
right?

2703
02:29:15,400 --> 02:29:18,600
Raised in Utah County.
Okay been to BYU.

2704
02:29:20,000 --> 02:29:24,400
Is the first counselor in his
Elders Quorum president of has

2705
02:29:24,400 --> 02:29:26,600
been well correlated okay.
Yes.

2706
02:29:26,600 --> 02:29:28,400
Isn't necessarily in a faith
crisis.

2707
02:29:28,400 --> 02:29:33,500
Faith crisis, but just got
smacked in the face with all

2708
02:29:33,500 --> 02:29:35,700
kinds of things that they are
like that can't be true.

2709
02:29:35,700 --> 02:29:37,700
I never heard of them, right?
So so they're not in a

2710
02:29:37,700 --> 02:29:40,800
full-blown Faith crisis.
Where would you point them for

2711
02:29:40,800 --> 02:29:44,800
resources, where they can begin
to read this right or talk to

2712
02:29:44,800 --> 02:29:48,500
other people because right, this
is going to be huge right?

2713
02:29:48,500 --> 02:29:53,400
As these Action start coming up
and I'll just go back.

2714
02:29:53,400 --> 02:29:57,000
This is tricky like is if I put
him to Richard Bushman and we're

2715
02:29:57,000 --> 02:29:58,900
rolling and things like that,
there's gonna be a lot of people

2716
02:29:58,900 --> 02:30:00,100
are going to say don't put him
there.

2717
02:30:00,100 --> 02:30:03,600
There's all kinds of stuff in
there that is uncorroborated and

2718
02:30:03,800 --> 02:30:08,100
and and could be destructive of
faith and yet I think man you've

2719
02:30:08,100 --> 02:30:10,700
got to you got to be enough of
an adult to deal with and sort

2720
02:30:10,700 --> 02:30:12,500
through that yourself.
Because I mean, I don't think

2721
02:30:12,500 --> 02:30:14,400
Richard Bushman was right about
everything either.

2722
02:30:14,400 --> 02:30:18,000
For example, know what you have
to be able to read about both

2723
02:30:18,000 --> 02:30:21,200
sides of the argument.
In order to really exactly.

2724
02:30:21,200 --> 02:30:25,400
So, so, in my mind the truth and
that's the conundrum I faced

2725
02:30:25,400 --> 02:30:29,700
when I was, was thinking about
this last night, like, I feel

2726
02:30:29,700 --> 02:30:34,800
like in some ways I almost need
to get like a so a preferred

2727
02:30:34,800 --> 02:30:39,000
reading list for people who just
got smashed in the face idea.

2728
02:30:39,100 --> 02:30:41,900
You know, it was a great idea.
Okay, here you want to know

2729
02:30:41,900 --> 02:30:45,000
about blood atonement, go read
this, where it is.

2730
02:30:45,100 --> 02:30:47,300
Here's what I think.
Here's where you can find it

2731
02:30:47,400 --> 02:30:49,100
something.
Because here's the thing.

2732
02:30:49,200 --> 02:30:51,500
There's a ton of people.
I don't know how I know this,

2733
02:30:51,700 --> 02:30:55,000
but I know this.
There are a ton of people that

2734
02:30:55,000 --> 02:30:57,700
just felt like, they just got
punched in the face by Mike

2735
02:30:57,700 --> 02:30:59,400
Tyson.
And now they're trying to regain

2736
02:30:59,400 --> 02:31:01,200
their legs, their again, their
composure.

2737
02:31:01,200 --> 02:31:03,100
And they just don't even know
where to start panic.

2738
02:31:03,100 --> 02:31:06,500
And they're like, oh, crap, what
are we, what I do, what's going,

2739
02:31:06,500 --> 02:31:07,500
right?
And the other thing too, is it's

2740
02:31:07,500 --> 02:31:10,400
easy enough for me to take for
granted things that I know that

2741
02:31:10,400 --> 02:31:12,400
other people don't.
So like, for example, like when

2742
02:31:12,400 --> 02:31:14,600
yours like School of prophets,
was not harm, Stones group, and

2743
02:31:14,600 --> 02:31:16,700
say, actually, that's called the
true and Living Church, right?

2744
02:31:16,700 --> 02:31:20,200
And this one was called the The
school of the prophets, right?

2745
02:31:20,208 --> 02:31:22,100
And it's like, actually two
different things.

2746
02:31:22,900 --> 02:31:25,200
You know, one of the biggest
problems of krakauer's book is

2747
02:31:25,200 --> 02:31:27,500
he generalize is everything so
much, right?

2748
02:31:27,700 --> 02:31:30,100
One of one of the best things
that I do want you to put the

2749
02:31:30,108 --> 02:31:32,000
link on that is on the reading
list.

2750
02:31:32,000 --> 02:31:37,000
For sure that I want everyone to
think about is, Something

2751
02:31:37,000 --> 02:31:41,000
written by Shirley Draper.
She talked about how that no one

2752
02:31:41,000 --> 02:31:43,500
in her entire Community.
She lived in Colorado City.

2753
02:31:43,500 --> 02:31:45,700
She was flds.
She said no wonder my entire

2754
02:31:45,700 --> 02:31:49,500
Community had ever so much as
heard the name Lafferty they had

2755
02:31:49,500 --> 02:31:52,900
no connection with anyone in our
entire Community but the book

2756
02:31:52,900 --> 02:31:56,100
under the banner of Heaven,
severely affected my community

2757
02:31:56,500 --> 02:31:59,800
and it put us in danger and she
said it affected my own life.

2758
02:31:59,800 --> 02:32:01,800
It put my mother's life in
danger it.

2759
02:32:01,800 --> 02:32:05,400
Put it made it very difficult
for me to leave the flds because

2760
02:32:05,400 --> 02:32:08,800
everybody just Just knew you
know, it was common knowledge

2761
02:32:08,800 --> 02:32:10,800
even though was incorrect was
just prejudiced but it was

2762
02:32:10,800 --> 02:32:13,500
common knowledge that the flds
were connected with those

2763
02:32:13,500 --> 02:32:18,800
Lafferty's who killed though
that those people they weren't

2764
02:32:18,800 --> 02:32:21,200
they were can actually this
other group they had no

2765
02:32:21,200 --> 02:32:25,000
communication whatsoever as far
as I know with any flds person.

2766
02:32:25,900 --> 02:32:28,100
But krakauer lump them all
together in the book and it

2767
02:32:28,108 --> 02:32:30,000
created huge amounts of Fallout
4.

2768
02:32:30,000 --> 02:32:32,900
The culture exact same things
going to be happening to these

2769
02:32:32,900 --> 02:32:34,300
poor guys that are gonna be
blindsided.

2770
02:32:34,300 --> 02:32:35,600
It's gonna be happening to the
mainstream LDS.

2771
02:32:35,600 --> 02:32:38,200
They're going to be You know,
people are going to watch it and

2772
02:32:38,200 --> 02:32:41,600
they're going to be like, well
yeah, apparently F.

2773
02:32:41,900 --> 02:32:44,300
Apparently LDS people are just
like the Lafferty's laughter.

2774
02:32:44,300 --> 02:32:47,100
These are the an example of what
all Mormons are like, right?

2775
02:32:47,600 --> 02:32:50,200
When you strip away, right?
I can just see the argument and

2776
02:32:50,200 --> 02:32:51,700
so that prejudice is gonna be
there.

2777
02:32:51,900 --> 02:32:53,900
Yeah.
And and so what do you what do

2778
02:32:53,908 --> 02:32:56,000
you do about it?
And I think that one of the main

2779
02:32:56,000 --> 02:32:58,700
things that we need to do first
is we need to recognize.

2780
02:32:59,400 --> 02:33:03,600
There's a Nuance here that you
don't know, for example, like I

2781
02:33:03,600 --> 02:33:06,300
was saying earlier the
difference between the flds to a

2782
02:33:06,400 --> 02:33:08,800
You be the true and Living
Church, the school of the

2783
02:33:08,800 --> 02:33:11,900
prophets and these other groups,
they're different people.

2784
02:33:12,500 --> 02:33:15,600
We can't lump them all together.
We shouldn't be generalizing and

2785
02:33:15,700 --> 02:33:16,800
because that's just be
prejudiced.

2786
02:33:16,800 --> 02:33:19,300
It'd be like saying that because
one person of One race

2787
02:33:19,300 --> 02:33:21,100
committed, one crime that
they're all a bunch of criminals

2788
02:33:21,100 --> 02:33:25,000
or that you know, anti-semitic
things or any of these other

2789
02:33:25,000 --> 02:33:27,200
prejudices is the same thing.
And there's real prejudice

2790
02:33:27,200 --> 02:33:30,100
against Mormon, Mormon
fundamentalists even more than

2791
02:33:30,100 --> 02:33:31,900
there is against mainstream
Mormons and even mainstream

2792
02:33:31,900 --> 02:33:33,400
Mormons are going to be feeling
it from the show.

2793
02:33:33,900 --> 02:33:36,300
So I guess, what I would say is,
take a deep breath.

2794
02:33:37,000 --> 02:33:43,200
Don't other anybody involved.
Take a deep breath and just

2795
02:33:43,200 --> 02:33:45,800
allow nuance and learning to
happen.

2796
02:33:46,100 --> 02:33:49,800
You can say, look, I don't know
about those people, and that's

2797
02:33:49,800 --> 02:33:52,700
not my experience with my, my
church.

2798
02:33:52,800 --> 02:33:54,500
As a member of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day

2799
02:33:54,500 --> 02:33:58,200
Saints, that does not look
representative to me of my

2800
02:33:58,200 --> 02:34:02,200
community and go ahead and just
say it that simply so people who

2801
02:34:02,200 --> 02:34:05,800
bring it to your attention or
people are looking for answers.

2802
02:34:05,800 --> 02:34:08,100
You know, my stumble on this
podcast, they're going to be

2803
02:34:08,108 --> 02:34:10,500
like, well, what do I do with
all these people who want to

2804
02:34:10,500 --> 02:34:14,600
know if, I'm if I made murder
covenants or something and

2805
02:34:14,800 --> 02:34:17,900
strange, Mormon temples.
You know, you can say that is

2806
02:34:17,900 --> 02:34:19,700
not my experience with my
religion.

2807
02:34:20,600 --> 02:34:24,400
I end and be comfortable with
maybe, you don't know.

2808
02:34:25,100 --> 02:34:28,700
It's okay, there are complicated
and nuanced answers if you want

2809
02:34:28,700 --> 02:34:29,800
them to be correct.
Answers.

2810
02:34:30,100 --> 02:34:34,100
And right now, generalizations
Hasty and horrible prejudicial

2811
02:34:34,100 --> 02:34:37,500
generalizations about to be made
willy-nilly all over the place.

2812
02:34:38,400 --> 02:34:41,600
Be the rational one stands up
and says that's not my

2813
02:34:41,600 --> 02:34:43,600
experience that's not my
understanding.

2814
02:34:44,100 --> 02:34:46,500
I'm sure the truth is out there
even though I don't know what it

2815
02:34:46,500 --> 02:34:47,800
is.
And I think it's okay for us to

2816
02:34:47,808 --> 02:34:50,100
say, we don't know what it is,
but I know that if you're making

2817
02:34:50,100 --> 02:34:53,300
a certain Hasty generalization
that you're the one who's wrong.

2818
02:34:53,300 --> 02:34:56,600
So let's all be mature about
this and learn these things.

2819
02:34:56,600 --> 02:34:59,500
One at a time, one little bit of
time, but I really wish there.

2820
02:34:59,700 --> 02:35:02,100
The best thing I can say, for a
reading list is surely Draper's

2821
02:35:02,100 --> 02:35:07,800
article is a must when,
considering how these things

2822
02:35:07,800 --> 02:35:11,000
affect Your community because
all of us are about to be

2823
02:35:11,000 --> 02:35:14,000
experiencing some of that.
And she had some great insight

2824
02:35:14,000 --> 02:35:16,800
about what it meant to her for
other people to generalize

2825
02:35:16,800 --> 02:35:18,700
against her to use prejudice
against her.

2826
02:35:19,200 --> 02:35:22,500
And she's a great example of
resilience and strength in the

2827
02:35:22,500 --> 02:35:27,800
face of that calmly and
consistently being bold enough

2828
02:35:27,800 --> 02:35:30,400
to say, well, actually, that's
not quite correct.

2829
02:35:30,800 --> 02:35:32,300
Let's look at the Nuance of the
issue.

2830
02:35:32,400 --> 02:35:35,800
This is my experience.
Let me explain to you, right?

2831
02:35:36,800 --> 02:35:40,800
And so yeah, I would say the
Blindsided poor, average, Mormon

2832
02:35:41,100 --> 02:35:44,700
guy or gal.
Who doesn't know anything about

2833
02:35:44,700 --> 02:35:46,800
this?
Is gonna have to say I don't

2834
02:35:46,800 --> 02:35:51,300
know about that, right?
Maybe you and I will get

2835
02:35:51,300 --> 02:35:53,200
together.
After this point, maybe we'll

2836
02:35:53,200 --> 02:35:54,600
put together a reading list,
right?

2837
02:35:54,600 --> 02:35:57,400
Maybe we'll get something
together to where we can put our

2838
02:35:57,400 --> 02:36:00,100
heads together and just give
some resources.

2839
02:36:00,100 --> 02:36:02,800
Because, look, I wish there were
a better resources out there

2840
02:36:02,800 --> 02:36:04,400
because frankly, one of the
biggest problems of Mormon

2841
02:36:04,400 --> 02:36:07,800
fundamentalism is because of our
fear of a Justified, fear of

2842
02:36:07,800 --> 02:36:09,900
authorities, as, you know,
there's been a lot of

2843
02:36:09,908 --> 02:36:14,900
persecution, we just don't speak
out, we don't speak out enough

2844
02:36:15,200 --> 02:36:18,700
and because we don't speak up
other people speak for us, and

2845
02:36:18,700 --> 02:36:21,500
those people are often,
Inaccurate and filled with

2846
02:36:21,500 --> 02:36:23,700
prejudice or some ulterior
motive.

2847
02:36:25,100 --> 02:36:28,300
And yeah, if we don't speak up,
then there is no other side of

2848
02:36:28,300 --> 02:36:29,300
the coin.
There is no other story.

2849
02:36:29,300 --> 02:36:32,400
And frankly, I do not think
there really are a lot of good

2850
02:36:33,200 --> 02:36:36,100
materials in print that explain
a lot of this history because a

2851
02:36:36,100 --> 02:36:38,800
lot of it's never been written.
Well well and here's the other

2852
02:36:38,800 --> 02:36:45,300
thing because and I'm trying to
say this without being

2853
02:36:45,300 --> 02:36:49,000
accusatory here but because the
LDS church has tried to disavow

2854
02:36:49,000 --> 02:36:53,400
some of this and and just flat
suppress it, let's be honest,

2855
02:36:53,400 --> 02:36:54,100
right?
Let's call it.

2856
02:36:54,100 --> 02:36:58,300
Yeah, this place is made, right?
Because of that.

2857
02:36:58,308 --> 02:37:00,900
They find their their
membership.

2858
02:37:00,900 --> 02:37:03,800
Now, maybe a little ill-equipped
to deal with what's coming.

2859
02:37:04,100 --> 02:37:06,500
Absolutely.
And it's because and they're

2860
02:37:06,500 --> 02:37:08,700
also not trained to take their
own personal moral

2861
02:37:08,700 --> 02:37:11,800
responsibility and say I will
take responsibility for my own.

2862
02:37:11,800 --> 02:37:15,300
I own spiritual life and my
community and say this is, this

2863
02:37:15,300 --> 02:37:17,800
is my experience and this is not
my experience, they don't feel

2864
02:37:17,800 --> 02:37:19,700
equipped, they feel like they
have to defer to Authority.

2865
02:37:19,700 --> 02:37:21,700
Again, some correlated material,
it's going to have all the

2866
02:37:21,700 --> 02:37:24,800
answers in this case.
They're it that's probably the

2867
02:37:24,800 --> 02:37:27,200
scariest realization that
they're going to have to just

2868
02:37:27,200 --> 02:37:29,200
live with.
I'm sorry, there is no

2869
02:37:29,200 --> 02:37:32,700
correlated answer to this.
There is no Pat answer, there's

2870
02:37:32,700 --> 02:37:34,800
not going to be a simple, right?
And wrong answer.

2871
02:37:34,800 --> 02:37:37,300
There's going to be a whole lot
of answers that are going to

2872
02:37:37,300 --> 02:37:39,700
have multiple different
viewpoints in, you're going to

2873
02:37:39,700 --> 02:37:41,300
have to wrestle with all of
them, right?

2874
02:37:41,300 --> 02:37:44,100
And I wasn't saying that to beat
up on the LDS church.

2875
02:37:44,100 --> 02:37:44,900
I really.
Yeah, I know.

2876
02:37:44,900 --> 02:37:46,900
But it is true though.
That that is something I

2877
02:37:46,900 --> 02:37:52,600
struggle with because I want I
want my LDS brothers and sisters

2878
02:37:52,600 --> 02:37:55,400
to be able Stanford.
Yeah, I really do.

2879
02:37:55,800 --> 02:38:00,800
I'm concerned for them and so
that that was that was why I

2880
02:38:00,808 --> 02:38:04,400
felt like this podcast was so
vital so you know as a believer

2881
02:38:04,400 --> 02:38:08,000
in the prophetic calling of
Joseph Smith and a believer in

2882
02:38:08,000 --> 02:38:10,800
the restoration as someone who
loves the Book of Mormon and all

2883
02:38:10,800 --> 02:38:12,800
of that.
Think probably one of my

2884
02:38:12,800 --> 02:38:16,200
greatest Sorrows is that when
confronted with very difficult

2885
02:38:16,200 --> 02:38:19,400
questions in anti-mormon
literature or wherever else,

2886
02:38:19,400 --> 02:38:23,700
they might find it.
That so many choose to abandon

2887
02:38:23,700 --> 02:38:27,700
Faith altogether, right?
As a man who believes in God and

2888
02:38:27,700 --> 02:38:31,300
believes that, when we pray, we
do not pray in vain, I do

2889
02:38:31,300 --> 02:38:33,700
believe that there is a God who
hears our prayers.

2890
02:38:34,600 --> 02:38:38,000
It breaks my heart that 99 out
of 100 people when confronted

2891
02:38:38,000 --> 02:38:40,200
with these big problems throw
the baby out with the bathwater

2892
02:38:40,200 --> 02:38:43,700
right and and that's what I
don't want to see I just you

2893
02:38:43,700 --> 02:38:47,400
know yeah if they were coming to
The Community of Christ or

2894
02:38:47,400 --> 02:38:52,600
Christ Church or the AUB or
something, 99 out of 100 times

2895
02:38:52,600 --> 02:38:55,000
when they when they see that
when they see the Corruptions in

2896
02:38:55,000 --> 02:38:57,900
the failings in the mainstream
LDS church, if they were going

2897
02:38:57,900 --> 02:38:59,900
somewhere else where they could
find more, where they could find

2898
02:38:59,900 --> 02:39:03,900
better answers where they could
be free to examine and struggle.

2899
02:39:06,100 --> 02:39:09,000
Then I wouldn't be so sad, but
so few actually keep their

2900
02:39:09,000 --> 02:39:13,300
faith, right?
It reminds me of broke my heart.

2901
02:39:13,800 --> 02:39:16,500
You know, I should be better
with pop culture than I am.

2902
02:39:16,500 --> 02:39:18,900
But what's the name of the guy
in?

2903
02:39:18,900 --> 02:39:22,200
Imagine Dragons is one of the
main Hers and Reynolds.

2904
02:39:22,300 --> 02:39:27,600
Yes, yes, Dan Reynolds.
He did a music video of the of

2905
02:39:27,600 --> 02:39:29,400
this song believer, which
Heroes.

2906
02:39:30,200 --> 02:39:34,800
And in that music video, he is
so angry because of the way the

2907
02:39:34,800 --> 02:39:39,700
church has had the November 5th
policy, right?

2908
02:39:39,700 --> 02:39:45,700
Basically saying that even the
children of a gay parent had no

2909
02:39:45,800 --> 02:39:48,300
ecclesiastical rights in the
church that everyone was to be

2910
02:39:48,300 --> 02:39:51,200
shunned at the whole family was
to be shunned completely.

2911
02:39:51,400 --> 02:39:53,500
Of the church.
It was shocking.

2912
02:39:53,600 --> 02:39:55,900
Kind of behavior honestly from
any religious institution to

2913
02:39:55,900 --> 02:39:59,800
blame children for their parents
for their parents sexual

2914
02:39:59,800 --> 02:40:02,000
orientation or something.
That's it was bizarre.

2915
02:40:02,200 --> 02:40:05,100
But anyways, he was so mad about
that, that he wrote that song

2916
02:40:05,100 --> 02:40:09,600
about his own pain and religious
struggle and feeling like he was

2917
02:40:09,600 --> 02:40:11,100
finally just done with the
church.

2918
02:40:12,000 --> 02:40:14,600
And so, once again, he went from
the in-group to the out-group.

2919
02:40:14,600 --> 02:40:17,200
So when he was in the in-group,
people held him up, like we've

2920
02:40:17,200 --> 02:40:19,400
got celebrities, that are
Mormons, Dan Reynolds is so

2921
02:40:19,400 --> 02:40:21,200
great, you know what I mean?
And he's a Mormon.

2922
02:40:21,300 --> 02:40:23,600
Then you know and then he writes
this song and I'll pretty soon I

2923
02:40:23,600 --> 02:40:25,400
was like well he's not
representative of Mormons, he's

2924
02:40:25,400 --> 02:40:28,300
just he's just a gay weirdo who
does music and we don't like him

2925
02:40:28,300 --> 02:40:30,200
and ball a lot and they just
push him right out.

2926
02:40:30,200 --> 02:40:32,300
So that's why they did the like
the love loud concerts here and

2927
02:40:32,300 --> 02:40:36,500
stuff like that.
To defend to defend people,

2928
02:40:36,500 --> 02:40:41,200
frankly who feel cast out of the
oldest Community for being lgbtq

2929
02:40:41,200 --> 02:40:44,200
or something.
Anyways, my point is, is that

2930
02:40:44,200 --> 02:40:50,300
when you made this music video,
it shows him really angry and

2931
02:40:50,300 --> 02:40:55,100
there are these Against these
photographs that are distorted,

2932
02:40:56,000 --> 02:40:58,500
photographs, and even spray
paints on one of them and

2933
02:40:58,500 --> 02:41:01,400
they're pictures of Jesus and
Joseph Smith Chief.

2934
02:41:01,800 --> 02:41:05,000
And I'm like, look, I understand
that he's going through

2935
02:41:05,000 --> 02:41:08,800
religious anguish and I feel I
really felt for Dan Reynolds.

2936
02:41:09,400 --> 02:41:12,800
The thing that broke my heart is
he should have been

2937
02:41:12,900 --> 02:41:16,400
spray-painting a photo of
Thomas, S Monson and Russell,

2938
02:41:16,400 --> 02:41:19,100
I'm Nelson.
These are the guys responsible

2939
02:41:19,100 --> 02:41:21,100
for this.
These are the guys who made that

2940
02:41:21,100 --> 02:41:21,600
choice.
Choice.

2941
02:41:21,600 --> 02:41:23,700
Russell, I'm Nelson was telling
everyone.

2942
02:41:23,800 --> 02:41:25,800
This is a pure Revelation from
God.

2943
02:41:25,900 --> 02:41:28,100
We should never have anything to
do with lgbtq people.

2944
02:41:28,200 --> 02:41:30,300
Their children should be blamed
for their parents.

2945
02:41:30,500 --> 02:41:33,700
This is what the Lord's will is,
you know, Russell Nelson's out

2946
02:41:33,700 --> 02:41:36,700
doing that Monson.
Who knows what his capacity was

2947
02:41:36,700 --> 02:41:38,600
at the time, but he certainly
seemed to have signed off on it,

2948
02:41:39,300 --> 02:41:42,400
at least in some capacity since
he was President Search.

2949
02:41:42,400 --> 02:41:46,600
And say why isn't Ann Reynolds
throwing his anger at the men

2950
02:41:46,600 --> 02:41:50,200
who made this decision, instead
of throwing his anger at God.

2951
02:41:50,200 --> 02:41:53,700
But I think that this is exactly
the problem that we have in

2952
02:41:53,700 --> 02:41:56,900
Mormonism, A really deep problem
we have in Mormonism, which is

2953
02:41:56,900 --> 02:41:59,600
that we don't know the
difference between follow the

2954
02:41:59,600 --> 02:42:02,200
prophet and follow the lord.
We don't know the difference

2955
02:42:02,200 --> 02:42:05,500
between choose the right and do
what you're told.

2956
02:42:06,100 --> 02:42:12,800
We don't seem to know the
difference between between God.

2957
02:42:12,800 --> 02:42:16,400
I know the gospel is true and I
know the church is true.

2958
02:42:16,600 --> 02:42:19,700
Those are different things.
They're very, very to hear they

2959
02:42:19,700 --> 02:42:20,400
us.
Yeah.

2960
02:42:20,500 --> 02:42:23,800
And and I think that it takes a
certain amount of Faith crisis a

2961
02:42:23,808 --> 02:42:26,300
struggle for people.
Learn that because we are not

2962
02:42:26,300 --> 02:42:27,900
taught that in the correlated.
Curriculum.

2963
02:42:28,400 --> 02:42:32,000
We're taught that obedience is
the same thing as righteousness.

2964
02:42:32,000 --> 02:42:36,900
We're taught that You know, that
that following the prophet is

2965
02:42:36,900 --> 02:42:40,200
the same thing as following God,
but the Lafferty's for example,

2966
02:42:40,200 --> 02:42:43,800
are an excellent.
Case in point why that is not

2967
02:42:43,800 --> 02:42:46,200
true.
They said oh we've got a

2968
02:42:46,208 --> 02:42:50,600
revelation, we have to murder
people because of our Revelation

2969
02:42:53,300 --> 02:42:59,000
and so in that deluded state, if
you're if you're if you're in

2970
02:42:59,000 --> 02:43:02,300
the follow the prophet crowd and
that's what the prophets telling

2971
02:43:02,300 --> 02:43:06,400
you.
You have to then you're going to

2972
02:43:06,408 --> 02:43:08,600
go along and this is why we have
to decide ahead of time that

2973
02:43:08,600 --> 02:43:10,500
we're not going to go along.
We have to decide ahead of time

2974
02:43:11,200 --> 02:43:14,200
that there are lines that we
won't cross.

2975
02:43:14,900 --> 02:43:18,000
You know, I think this is one of
the things that and Mormons

2976
02:43:18,000 --> 02:43:20,500
aren't good at that.
I talk to people all the time

2977
02:43:20,800 --> 02:43:24,300
who say, oh don't worry, it'll
never happen, the profit will

2978
02:43:24,300 --> 02:43:28,500
never lead us astray, but that's
such dangerous rhetoric

2979
02:43:28,500 --> 02:43:32,300
especially after seeing the
Lafferty's and Warren Jeffs and

2980
02:43:32,300 --> 02:43:36,100
plenty of so-called prophets.
Who definitely lead people

2981
02:43:36,100 --> 02:43:37,600
astray.
And, and don't forget, there

2982
02:43:37,600 --> 02:43:40,700
were people in the flds who were
like, well, of course, I don't

2983
02:43:40,700 --> 02:43:42,700
believe the prophet could never
leave us lead us astray.

2984
02:43:42,700 --> 02:43:44,900
Because I know that the
mainstream LDS church profits of

2985
02:43:44,900 --> 02:43:48,500
let people strip it, but Warren
Uncle Warren would never lead us

2986
02:43:48,500 --> 02:43:50,200
astray.
It's different.

2987
02:43:50,200 --> 02:43:53,600
It's different this time it's
because it's my church it's my

2988
02:43:53,600 --> 02:43:56,000
people.
This is the in-group my in group

2989
02:43:56,000 --> 02:43:58,500
is the good guys so it won't
happen here.

2990
02:43:58,900 --> 02:44:03,400
That is immature and it's wrong.
We have to step up and say it

2991
02:44:03,408 --> 02:44:07,900
doesn't matter where it is.
I have a profit I have fi L.

2992
02:44:08,000 --> 02:44:09,800
There's Temple presidencies this
corn presidents.

2993
02:44:10,000 --> 02:44:13,300
I sustain the leaders in my
church but I don't sustain them

2994
02:44:13,300 --> 02:44:16,100
blindly is and I'm going to do
something bad if they tell me to

2995
02:44:16,500 --> 02:44:19,200
I sustain them because they give
me Insight, that leads me to the

2996
02:44:19,200 --> 02:44:22,100
Divine that Revelation that
leads to the Divine.

2997
02:44:22,200 --> 02:44:25,000
But if they come out and they
show me a revelation, they say,

2998
02:44:25,000 --> 02:44:27,700
look, here's a revelation from
God and it clearly leads into

2999
02:44:27,700 --> 02:44:30,000
the darkness.
I need to have the courage to

3000
02:44:30,000 --> 02:44:33,700
say, no, you know, I don't care
that you're the prophet know.

3001
02:44:34,500 --> 02:44:36,700
And so I think that this is the
type of thing.

3002
02:44:36,700 --> 02:44:39,700
I wish I could go into like
every Primary in the whole

3003
02:44:39,700 --> 02:44:41,500
church and just blow their minds
a little bit.

3004
02:44:42,200 --> 02:44:46,100
We should be doing moral agency
exercises.

3005
02:44:46,100 --> 02:44:49,100
We should be exercising our
moral agency by saying, every

3006
02:44:49,100 --> 02:44:52,900
time we receiving instruction,
From anyone, we should be

3007
02:44:52,900 --> 02:44:55,300
saying, should I follow this?
Or should I not?

3008
02:44:55,900 --> 02:44:58,500
Is this a lawful order military
parlance?

3009
02:44:58,500 --> 02:45:04,500
Or is this an unlawful order
when we do that?

3010
02:45:04,600 --> 02:45:07,900
Then we recognize that there's a
big difference between following

3011
02:45:07,900 --> 02:45:10,900
the prophet or following God or
following or knowing that the

3012
02:45:10,900 --> 02:45:12,700
church is true annoying.
The gospel is true.

3013
02:45:13,600 --> 02:45:15,300
And then then we might hold them
accountable.

3014
02:45:15,300 --> 02:45:17,900
So that the next time, I mean
like for example, for me, the

3015
02:45:17,900 --> 02:45:19,500
reason I was out of the
mainstream LDS church was

3016
02:45:19,500 --> 02:45:21,000
because of changes to the
doctor.

3017
02:45:21,200 --> 02:45:24,100
Ian's changes to the temple
ordinances changes to the

3018
02:45:24,100 --> 02:45:26,800
priesthood that I was like no
that's you don't have the

3019
02:45:26,808 --> 02:45:30,500
authority to do that but there's
plenty of things that people who

3020
02:45:30,500 --> 02:45:33,800
are perfectly fine with that.
I know lots of good LDS people

3021
02:45:33,800 --> 02:45:36,000
in the mainstream earliest
Church who fully believe that

3022
02:45:36,000 --> 02:45:38,000
Russell Nelson has not crossed
the line.

3023
02:45:39,100 --> 02:45:44,400
I would still ask them to draw a
line it because all of us need

3024
02:45:44,400 --> 02:45:46,800
to for our own moral for our
moral Health.

3025
02:45:47,200 --> 02:45:50,400
We need to say, okay maybe I
don't think that we're over the

3026
02:45:50,408 --> 02:45:53,800
line yet.
Maybe the LDS church is not an

3027
02:45:53,800 --> 02:45:55,500
apostasy or Christchurch.
I don't believe Christ.

3028
02:45:55,500 --> 02:45:57,300
You're just like at least not
fully in a posse.

3029
02:45:57,600 --> 02:45:59,400
We're still doing pretty good
but I still.

3030
02:45:59,400 --> 02:46:03,200
But the difference is, I do have
a line where I will know if they

3031
02:46:03,200 --> 02:46:06,300
cross that line, it's too far
that red line and I just wish

3032
02:46:06,300 --> 02:46:11,700
that every Mormon would Take a
moment to draw that line.

3033
02:46:13,700 --> 02:46:15,900
You might think it's ludicrous.
You might think well Russell,

3034
02:46:15,900 --> 02:46:18,400
I'm Nelson or Donnie chokes are
none of these guys.

3035
02:46:18,500 --> 02:46:20,600
They're never going to get up
there and cross.

3036
02:46:20,600 --> 02:46:24,900
That line doesn't mean it isn't
useful to have that line, right?

3037
02:46:25,100 --> 02:46:26,900
Right.
You got to have that line so the

3038
02:46:26,908 --> 02:46:29,000
maybe maybe it's not rustling
nothing.

3039
02:46:29,000 --> 02:46:32,300
Maybe it's not down a choked.
Maybe it's the next guy, maybe

3040
02:46:32,300 --> 02:46:34,800
it's a guy after that.
Maybe it's some guy you don't

3041
02:46:34,800 --> 02:46:37,900
even see on your radar and maybe
it's even maybe it's even just a

3042
02:46:37,908 --> 02:46:39,800
test.
You know.

3043
02:46:39,800 --> 02:46:42,600
I remember here's one that I
actually experienced in the LDS

3044
02:46:42,600 --> 02:46:43,900
church that taught the In
simple.

3045
02:46:44,200 --> 02:46:46,100
He really upset people.
I don't think he gave this talk

3046
02:46:46,100 --> 02:46:47,500
more than once.
We had a high councilman, come

3047
02:46:47,500 --> 02:46:52,400
to our Ward, to give a talk, and
he and his point was, we

3048
02:46:52,400 --> 02:46:54,400
shouldn't have blind obedience.
So, this was really fun.

3049
02:46:54,700 --> 02:46:56,800
He got up and he said, well I've
been sent by the stake

3050
02:46:56,800 --> 02:47:01,000
presidency and it is proposed
that we sustain and he went

3051
02:47:01,000 --> 02:47:04,200
through the regular stuff and
they started adding weird stuff

3052
02:47:04,200 --> 02:47:07,200
and seeing when people would
stop, huh?

3053
02:47:07,300 --> 02:47:10,700
And it got super weird.
It is proposed that on Thursday,

3054
02:47:10,700 --> 02:47:12,900
afternoons, we nothing but
cheddar cheese.

3055
02:47:13,100 --> 02:47:16,100
And And, and that any food,
besides cheddar cheese that has

3056
02:47:16,100 --> 02:47:20,000
eaten between the hours of 12:00
noon and 6:00 p.m. on a Thursday

3057
02:47:20,100 --> 02:47:22,600
is a violation of the order
wisdom and that we will

3058
02:47:22,600 --> 02:47:25,800
surrender our Temple recommends,
all in favor and he opposed, you

3059
02:47:25,808 --> 02:47:28,700
know, and it was just like it
got sillier and sillier, but it

3060
02:47:28,700 --> 02:47:32,500
was silly as crap for 10 minutes
before people stopped.

3061
02:47:34,700 --> 02:47:37,500
And he said, and there were
people and, and probably a good

3062
02:47:37,500 --> 02:47:40,600
half of the congregation
continue to sustain all the way

3063
02:47:40,600 --> 02:47:42,200
to the end until he just gave
up.

3064
02:47:43,500 --> 02:47:45,400
And he said, I'm not making a
point here.

3065
02:47:45,400 --> 02:47:47,500
There's two ways you can look at
what we just did.

3066
02:47:47,800 --> 02:47:51,800
One those of you who stopped,
you know, congratulations to you

3067
02:47:51,800 --> 02:47:56,800
guys because you recognized that
there are limits and that this

3068
02:47:56,800 --> 02:48:00,600
was not appropriate.
And here's the problem.

3069
02:48:00,600 --> 02:48:03,700
He was also in favor of the
people who continued and those

3070
02:48:03,700 --> 02:48:06,000
of you who went all the way to
the end Bravo for you because

3071
02:48:06,000 --> 02:48:08,700
you are willing to be obedient
no matter what.

3072
02:48:09,600 --> 02:48:17,500
And but I was one of those who
at least used this example as a

3073
02:48:17,500 --> 02:48:20,400
moment to realize wait a second
but I shouldn't be a beginner

3074
02:48:20,400 --> 02:48:21,000
matter.
What?

3075
02:48:21,300 --> 02:48:27,100
Right there are limits, maybe we
shouldn't be sustaining,

3076
02:48:27,100 --> 02:48:29,900
insanity, or violence, or just
craziness.

3077
02:48:29,900 --> 02:48:32,100
And and that's why I'm saying,
everybody should make a line in

3078
02:48:32,100 --> 02:48:34,100
their head.
I've heard people say, for

3079
02:48:34,100 --> 02:48:37,300
example, look, the LDS church is
probably going to ordain women

3080
02:48:37,300 --> 02:48:40,400
to the priesthood The oldest
church is probably going to have

3081
02:48:40,400 --> 02:48:43,800
gay Temple marriage.
The LDS church is likely to do a

3082
02:48:43,800 --> 02:48:46,500
bunch of those types of things
in the very near future.

3083
02:48:46,700 --> 02:48:51,100
I think fairly near future at
least because that's what's

3084
02:48:51,100 --> 02:48:54,500
going to become politically
necessary or at least, probably

3085
02:48:54,500 --> 02:48:56,200
going to be completely
necessary, right?

3086
02:48:56,300 --> 02:48:58,100
And they won't do it, unless it
is necessary.

3087
02:48:58,400 --> 02:49:01,600
But I think that it's possible
that that will be necessary for

3088
02:49:01,600 --> 02:49:03,600
them to retain their tax status
or something else.

3089
02:49:03,700 --> 02:49:06,200
If that does happen.
I bet you they'll cave.

3090
02:49:07,400 --> 02:49:10,200
I mean, for forgiveness Like
Jimmy, Carter even said he

3091
02:49:10,200 --> 02:49:12,100
didn't directly threaten the tax
status.

3092
02:49:12,800 --> 02:49:16,500
I thought that was interesting.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that

3093
02:49:16,800 --> 02:49:20,400
Bob Jones University case didn't
go to the Supreme Court, the

3094
02:49:20,408 --> 02:49:23,000
next year, right?
You know what I'm saying?

3095
02:49:23,000 --> 02:49:29,600
Anyway, but my point is, is that
we need to draw that line if

3096
02:49:29,600 --> 02:49:31,700
that's over the line for you,
decide right now, that's over

3097
02:49:31,700 --> 02:49:34,300
the line for you.
So that if it does happen or

3098
02:49:34,300 --> 02:49:37,700
when it does happen, you will
have the moral courage to stand

3099
02:49:37,700 --> 02:49:39,200
up.
And say I am opposed.

3100
02:49:40,200 --> 02:49:43,200
And if you can't do that, you
don't have your moral agency

3101
02:49:43,200 --> 02:49:45,400
intact really.
In which case, you're not going

3102
02:49:45,400 --> 02:49:47,900
to stand up against the
Lafferty's know, you're going to

3103
02:49:47,900 --> 02:49:49,300
ride in the backseat of that
car.

3104
02:49:49,900 --> 02:49:51,900
And they're going to drive you
to hell with blood on their

3105
02:49:51,900 --> 02:49:53,000
hands.
Yeah.

3106
02:49:53,000 --> 02:49:57,400
You're, you're 100% correct.
And that's why I kept coming

3107
02:49:57,400 --> 02:49:59,300
back to that whole red line
thing, right?

3108
02:49:59,300 --> 02:50:03,000
Where's your and where's it at?
All right, fellas, we've done

3109
02:50:03,000 --> 02:50:06,200
two hours and 50 minutes.
Oh my gosh, so long.

3110
02:50:06,500 --> 02:50:12,700
So I want to end with giving you
guys Eyes, each something to say

3111
02:50:13,600 --> 02:50:15,200
Philippe, I'm going to start
with you.

3112
02:50:15,500 --> 02:50:17,900
I'll go and then I'm going to
give you the last barely got a

3113
02:50:17,900 --> 02:50:18,800
chance.
I'm so sorry.

3114
02:50:18,800 --> 02:50:21,800
Yeah, it's all good.
I'm still a student learning

3115
02:50:21,800 --> 02:50:23,200
this stuff.
Like I've never had the banner

3116
02:50:23,200 --> 02:50:25,900
of Heaven.
My older sister did when she was

3117
02:50:25,900 --> 02:50:29,900
missing in the AL Dia LDS church
and that prevented her from.

3118
02:50:29,900 --> 02:50:33,600
That was one of the books that's
just turned her off from it.

3119
02:50:33,600 --> 02:50:36,800
And when I heard, they were
making a series L, I rolled my

3120
02:50:36,800 --> 02:50:43,100
eyes I was like, oh, this is
gonna suck. and, I don't think

3121
02:50:43,400 --> 02:50:45,600
Latter Day Saints.
Should be afraid to investigate

3122
02:50:45,600 --> 02:50:50,200
history if they should be
afraid.

3123
02:50:51,200 --> 02:50:54,400
These are going to you're going
to find ugly things that it's

3124
02:50:54,800 --> 02:50:56,300
normal.
I mean, I used to be Catholic,

3125
02:50:56,300 --> 02:50:58,800
imagine how I felt when I stood
the Catholic Church did that,

3126
02:50:58,800 --> 02:51:02,300
you know, but it didn't cause me
to heal the Catholic church in a

3127
02:51:02,300 --> 02:51:06,600
negative way, but don't be
afraid to investigate your own

3128
02:51:06,600 --> 02:51:10,100
history, its its history.
It's going to be dark,

3129
02:51:10,100 --> 02:51:12,100
sometimes, it's not all
sugar-coated.

3130
02:51:12,100 --> 02:51:15,600
It's not a walk in the field.
Joe Smith is still a prophet of

3131
02:51:15,600 --> 02:51:17,500
God Brigham.
Young is still a prophet of God.

3132
02:51:18,500 --> 02:51:21,300
And the more you do, the more,
you know, I think you'll be able

3133
02:51:21,300 --> 02:51:24,200
to defend, at least in good
conscience, know that you did

3134
02:51:24,200 --> 02:51:27,700
your best to defend, Mormon
history to the than the profits

3135
02:51:28,000 --> 02:51:29,500
for yourself.
And for those who may have a

3136
02:51:29,508 --> 02:51:31,400
question because it may just be
a simple question.

3137
02:51:31,900 --> 02:51:35,400
You could save somebody from not
save, but you could probably

3138
02:51:35,400 --> 02:51:39,200
motivate them, inspiring them
not to turn away from God, you

3139
02:51:39,208 --> 02:51:43,100
know, but well that's good.
That's its need to hear to

3140
02:51:43,100 --> 02:51:46,300
about, you know, after all
you've had this struggle, you

3141
02:51:46,300 --> 02:51:48,100
had to go.
Wait, a second, is the Catholic

3142
02:51:48,300 --> 02:51:51,300
Church The Authority or not and
learn about the restoration,

3143
02:51:51,600 --> 02:51:54,600
right?
Hi, you know, more than anything

3144
02:51:54,600 --> 02:51:57,700
else I thought about what I was
going to say and in this last

3145
02:51:57,700 --> 02:52:02,700
segment, more than anything
else, I guess I just want to

3146
02:52:02,700 --> 02:52:07,200
Bear testimony of the fact that
if you don't give up on God.

3147
02:52:08,900 --> 02:52:11,100
He doesn't give up on you.
He doesn't give up on you when

3148
02:52:11,100 --> 02:52:14,300
you do give up on him.
Right side.

3149
02:52:15,200 --> 02:52:19,600
Stick this out.
I know right now, for some, this

3150
02:52:19,600 --> 02:52:22,200
is a scary moment.
You're reeling.

3151
02:52:22,400 --> 02:52:27,100
Your feet are wobbly again.
He got punched in the face and

3152
02:52:27,100 --> 02:52:29,900
and it was a great quote, I
Believe by Muhammad Ali.

3153
02:52:29,900 --> 02:52:32,100
I could be wrong, which is,
everyone's got a plan until they

3154
02:52:32,100 --> 02:52:34,300
get punched in the face.
Yep.

3155
02:52:34,300 --> 02:52:37,200
And so you may have had
everything all mapped out and

3156
02:52:37,200 --> 02:52:41,800
now you've got punched In the
face, stick it out, get to the

3157
02:52:41,800 --> 02:52:45,700
next round.
Sit down breathe, drink some

3158
02:52:45,700 --> 02:52:50,500
water.
That's an allegory for breathe.

3159
02:52:50,500 --> 02:52:55,100
Read a little bit more read
context, learn the history

3160
02:52:55,100 --> 02:52:59,400
because history has a huge
bearing on context, learn those

3161
02:52:59,400 --> 02:53:02,800
things.
And then reach out, if you can't

3162
02:53:02,800 --> 02:53:06,400
get the answer on your own,
reach out to me, I'm not going

3163
02:53:06,400 --> 02:53:09,500
to guarantee that I can give you
that answer but Can certainly

3164
02:53:09,500 --> 02:53:12,500
put you in touch with others
that can, that's the whole

3165
02:53:12,500 --> 02:53:15,600
reason I have people on here
that are way smarter than me,

3166
02:53:16,300 --> 02:53:22,500
because I want this to be of
worth, but but Reach Out, reach

3167
02:53:22,500 --> 02:53:25,200
out to folks and I know it seems
scary.

3168
02:53:25,200 --> 02:53:28,500
I've been in your shoes.
It's a big leap.

3169
02:53:28,500 --> 02:53:33,000
Going from fundamentalism, you
know, thought processes to

3170
02:53:33,000 --> 02:53:34,900
reaching out to an actual
fundamentalist.

3171
02:53:34,900 --> 02:53:39,200
But please, we're here for you
even if you never Join the

3172
02:53:39,200 --> 02:53:41,600
church.
We go to and stay in the LDS

3173
02:53:41,600 --> 02:53:46,800
church and above all know that.
I know that this is, this gospel

3174
02:53:46,800 --> 02:53:49,800
is true.
Joseph Smith was a true Prophet.

3175
02:53:49,800 --> 02:53:52,200
Brigham Young was a true prophet
and I leave that with you in the

3176
02:53:52,200 --> 02:53:53,600
name of Jesus Christ.
Amen.

3177
02:53:54,100 --> 02:53:57,400
Amen.
Yeah.

3178
02:54:00,400 --> 02:54:04,800
There's courage and strength in
each one of us that I think that

3179
02:54:04,800 --> 02:54:09,400
we don't realize because we most
of us have had few very few

3180
02:54:09,400 --> 02:54:11,000
opportunities to truly tap into
it.

3181
02:54:11,500 --> 02:54:16,000
I think what I would like to
leave us with is be bold be

3182
02:54:16,000 --> 02:54:19,100
bolder than you think you need
to be be stronger than you think

3183
02:54:19,100 --> 02:54:22,600
you need to be and it'll work
because that strength is in you

3184
02:54:23,100 --> 02:54:26,800
learn from my mistake with my
brother and not being bold

3185
02:54:26,800 --> 02:54:30,900
enough.
Doesn't matter if you've been

3186
02:54:30,900 --> 02:54:33,600
taught that snitches get
stitches when someone's head in

3187
02:54:33,608 --> 02:54:36,100
a dangerous path.
It's an act of love and self

3188
02:54:36,100 --> 02:54:38,800
sacrifice to stand up and speak
out.

3189
02:54:38,800 --> 02:54:43,300
Even if you have to call the
police or CPS, and it doesn't

3190
02:54:43,300 --> 02:54:44,500
matter.
Even if there's going to be

3191
02:54:44,500 --> 02:54:48,400
consequences to you, you can
handle them because you're

3192
02:54:48,400 --> 02:54:53,700
stronger than, you know, one of
my favorite books by Ogden Kraut

3193
02:54:54,000 --> 02:54:56,400
is compromised.
And Concession, I don't know if

3194
02:54:56,400 --> 02:54:58,800
that really fits into this
reading list but it's about the

3195
02:54:58,800 --> 02:55:01,600
martyrs and all the various
people who died for their faith

3196
02:55:01,600 --> 02:55:03,000
or had to stand up for their
faith.

3197
02:55:04,200 --> 02:55:06,600
And the struggles that they had,
because it seems like it'd be so

3198
02:55:06,600 --> 02:55:10,600
much easier to cave, and just
give it all up so much easier.

3199
02:55:12,100 --> 02:55:15,500
But his last chapter, is this
beautiful little essay about the

3200
02:55:15,500 --> 02:55:21,700
strength that is in you.
You don't have to be a great man

3201
02:55:21,700 --> 02:55:25,800
or woman like like Gandhi or
Joan of Arc or some heroic

3202
02:55:25,800 --> 02:55:28,600
figure to stand up for, what's
right?

3203
02:55:29,000 --> 02:55:32,000
We all have it in us the same
way I said earlier, we all have

3204
02:55:32,000 --> 02:55:33,600
the darkness.
We also have a great deal of

3205
02:55:33,600 --> 02:55:37,000
courage in us to stand up
against that darkness and I

3206
02:55:37,008 --> 02:55:42,300
guess I would say If you thought
about it, if you thought

3207
02:55:42,300 --> 02:55:44,900
through, this is where my red
line is, this is a principle.

3208
02:55:44,900 --> 02:55:47,100
I need to stand up for.
This is a thing I need to do.

3209
02:55:49,300 --> 02:55:51,600
Just jump, just jump right into
the dark.

3210
02:55:51,600 --> 02:55:53,600
If you have to, I know it's
scary as hell.

3211
02:55:53,900 --> 02:55:57,300
Hold your breath, if you have
to, but jump because the courage

3212
02:55:57,300 --> 02:55:59,900
is in you and you will
accomplish it, and when you do

3213
02:55:59,900 --> 02:56:04,600
it, it's worth it.
Standing up for your neighbor,

3214
02:56:05,600 --> 02:56:06,800
standing up for.
What is right?

3215
02:56:07,600 --> 02:56:10,400
It's basically always worth it
no matter what the consequences

3216
02:56:10,400 --> 02:56:12,500
do you are because you don't see
the fullness of your

3217
02:56:12,508 --> 02:56:15,500
consequences at first.
You might think I'm going to get

3218
02:56:15,500 --> 02:56:19,200
in trouble for this and yeah
that part's true but the part

3219
02:56:19,200 --> 02:56:21,600
that you can't see, that's also
true is that you will become a

3220
02:56:21,608 --> 02:56:26,400
better man or woman.
And you'll gain respect and

3221
02:56:26,400 --> 02:56:28,600
you'll gain strength every time
you make that choice.

3222
02:56:28,900 --> 02:56:31,200
So I guess that's what I'd leave
with you.

3223
02:56:31,200 --> 02:56:34,700
Is that the whole universe, the
whole world.

3224
02:56:34,700 --> 02:56:38,000
It's actually within you every
heroic thing you've ever heard

3225
02:56:38,000 --> 02:56:41,500
of, as well as the darkness,
it's all in you and that

3226
02:56:41,500 --> 02:56:46,600
struggle, you can overcome
Awesome.

3227
02:56:47,300 --> 02:56:50,800
Alright folks.
Thanks for tuning in and we'll

3228
02:56:50,800 --> 02:56:51,900
see you next time.